Reliable reception is the goal.
ATSC/8VSB fails MISERABLY at providing reliable reception, even with 5th gen demods.
There is no excuse for a modern digital system to be such a piece of crap.

Who is having unreliable reception with this "piece of crap" ATSC?

Anyone?

...stations use *way* too much compression, etc. etc.

Well, now that the broadcasters have the same "tool" available to them that DBS and digital cable operators have: namely, making the trade-off between image quality and number of channels, with the goal of maximizing their profit, why should we be surprised that they would come to make the same decisions?

I think the "salad days" of stunning, no-artifact HDTV pictures, back when then DTV stations were first turned on, are gone. Back then, their viewership was so low that there were no business issues driving technology choices. Broadcasters could afford to "wow" the early adopters and showcase what their new stations are capable of doing. But especially as 02/17/2009 gets closer and closer, the business realty that governs digital cable and DSB will dominate OTA as well - most people don't care very much about picture quality, even fewer have TV monitors that'll display those differences, and an extra channel means more commercial time to sell. It doesn't help that OTA are stuck with MPEG2, either.

My hope was High Def. DVD's would be the source of "real" HD content. Unfortunately the HD-DVD vs. Blue-Ray thing has messed up the market a bit. But with DVD's, the persons with their hand on the "compression knob", are the content creators, and they have in interest in making the quality of creation look as good as possible. Plus, there's no business avdantage to squeezing a movie into, say, 70% of a disc, as compared to the entire disc. Even with the current mess in the DVD market, they should still be the best place to look at when you want to show off what your expensive HT system is capable of doing.

My hope was High Def. DVD's would be the source of real" HD content. Unfortunately the HD-DVD vs. Blue-Ray thing has messed up the market a bit.
But that issue aside, high definition discs are the dream source of HD content right now. You can stop on any frame on almost any disc and you'll see no artifacts, not to mention DD+ sound is vastly better than the ten year old DD we hear with ATSC.

Plus, there's no business avdantage to squeezing a movie into, say, 70% of a disc, as compared to the entire disc.
The only times they do that is when they want to cram a bunch of TV episodes on a disc. Take a look at any Showtime DVD release like the L Word or Sleeper Cell. They're barely watchable.

Unfortunately there was some pixelization in one episode of the HD-DVD release of Star Trek Season 1. Not a good sign. :(

The FCC needs to give them more bandwidth to work with. Is there really a reason why we can't have great quality and selection over the air? Do cable and satellite HAVE to rule the roost and get to charge an arm and a leg for it as well?

The stations already have plenty of bandwidth. They're just throwing a large amount of it away on worthless subchannels and null packets in anticipation of adding more worthless subchannels in the future.

Give them more bandwidth and they'll throw that away too.

All the upper VHF stations will be moving their ATSC to VHF channels. The rest (KATU and KOIN) will stay UHF.

KGW's future was up in the air about a year ago because the FCC was concerned that their VHF channel would interfere with a PBS station to the south. I don't know if they've decided that yet.

i can tell you that right now KOAC-DT (39) interfere with KOIN-DT (40) when KOAC-DT goes off the air due to power problems we get KOIN-DT fine but when KOAC-DT is on we cannot get a good lock on KOIN-DT so i thing the fcc is trying to avoid problems when KOAC-DT moves to there analog channel (7):confused:

Does anyone know what transmitter was offline last week in the Portland area?

does this mean KATU can now spam without switching to SD? or is this not new? I dont think I ever noticed KATU id on HD before.
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/3770/katubp9.th.jpg (http://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=katubp9.jpg)

Hello ALL:

I notice an issue with KGW-HD on Comcast (708) and wonder if it is OTA as well. KGW, on HD, seems to have clicks in their audio. This is bad during the news at noon and other times...especially during their news remote feeds. Is this OTA as well?

Hello ALL:

I notice an issue with KGW-HD on Comcast (708) and wonder if it is OTA as well. KGW, on HD, seems to have clicks in their audio. This is bad during the news at noon and other times...especially during their news remote feeds. Is this OTA as well?

FWIW, I hear it in my Verizon feed.

FWIW, I hear it in my Verizon feed.

Thank you! Take a look at Verizon section as I had a On Demand question.

TIA

Funny, I was just noticing it during Password on OTA and switched over to 708 to see if it was there too. I'd say it's a problem for everyone then, OTA, Comcast, and Verizon. Odd. I also notice the picture has minor issues as well on both OTA and Comcast.

Funny, I was just noticing it during Password on OTA and switched over to 708 to see if it was there too. I'd say it's a problem for everyone then, OTA, Comcast, and Verizon. Odd. I also notice the picture has minor issues as well on both OTA and Comcast.


I sent KGW an email so we will see what they say.

Thank you...will let everyone know what they tell me.

The last five days I've been having trouble with OTA reception of the digital feed for Fox 12 KPTV. All the other HDTV stations are unchanged and I get good reception on the other channels. I'm located in Sherwood. Is anyone else having a reception problem with KPTV?

> The last five days I've been having trouble with OTA reception of
> the digital feed for Fox 12 KPTV. All the other HDTV stations are
> unchanged and I get good reception on the other channels. I'm
> located in Sherwood. Is anyone else having a reception problem with KPTV?

Confirmed. On 2007-12-26 I had signal strength = 100% signal quality = 90%
(typical for Fox-30). Today I have signal strength = 7-15% signal quality = 0-20%.

Either something at channel 30 is VERY broken, or it is getting jammed.

Thanks for check the signal. So it's not just me that's receiving a poor signal from KPTV. I've tried to contact KPTV to let them know about the problem. I hope they fix it soon because I watch their OTA digital feed a lot.

My signal quality from KPTV is in the 90's but where I am their tower could fall over and I'd still get a good signal from them.

> My signal quality from KPTV is in the 90's

You're east of the towers, right?

So 30's antenna is working to the east and broken to the southwest?

> My signal quality from KPTV is in the 90's

You're east of the towers, right?
Yes, but I'm also just four or five miles from them. This is about where the signal strength starts to peak due to the design of the towers.

I'm currently getting an 87 signal strength for KPTV-DT on my TiVo Series 3 . I'm tucked into Nehalem Valley in Vernonia (32 miles NW from the towers) and using a Radio Shack 120" inch all band roof-mounted antenna along with a antenna-mounted high-gain signal amplifier. No problems to report here.

Today channel 30 is back to the usual 100% strength 90% quality.
Randy, is it still bad in Sherwood?

I know the below is not an OTA post, but I have similar thoughts to many here about the whole HDTV experience.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12711206#post12711206

I know the below is not an OTA post, but I have similar thoughts to many here about the whole HDTV experience.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12711206#post12711206

Sorry to hear that you're not able to enjoy HDTV. But you are correct in saying that your 20" Sony CRT is better at non HD stuff than the Panny you returned.

Are these guys on the air, or still in construction phase?

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KOXI-LD
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KKEI-LD

Well, today I noticed that KGW-HD had the distortion/clicks again in their 5.1 audio feed. Thay had fixed it, but it is back...at least on the noon news!

Are these guys on the air, or still in construction phase?

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KOXI-LD
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KKEI-LD

What kind of programming will these channels be offering I wonder?

Ack, I need a little help. The Packers game is on this weekend and my partner has decided we have to watch it at our place and it has to be perfect picture. That means my months of stalling on running an attic antenna and cable down to the basement must come to an end. I was perfectly happy with the mediocre reception from a powered pair of rabbit ears in the basement. The constant dropouts in reception keep me from watching more TV than I need to.

I have two questions and haven't found anything in the thread to suggest a solution.

Is there a quality antenna dealer in the city that can sell me a decent combo or separate UHF and VHF antennas or do I need to order online?

Secondly, how do you connect two separate antennas to a single line? Is it as simple as a splitter? I was under some impression UHF and VHF should be run on separate inputs.

Thanks in advance, I hope the day treats you all well. I am gettign ready for some quality attic time with a headlamp.

Secondly, how do you connect two separate antennas to a single line? Is it as simple as a splitter? I was under some impression UHF and VHF should be run on separate inputs.
I don't know about local dealers.

You might find better info about antennas in the HDTV Reception Hardware forum and specifically the official antenna thread. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623)

> Is there a quality antenna dealer in the city that can sell me a decent
> combo or separate UHF and VHF antennas or do I need to order online?

I couldn't find any decent antennas locally 1.5 years ago. :-(
Lowe's does carry RG6 quad-shield waterproof coax.

Separate UHF and VHF antennas give better performance than a combo.

> Secondly, how do you connect two separate antennas to a single line?

Assuming you are talking about VHF + UHF, you can use a diplexor.
The Pico Macom UVSJ runs $1-3. There are other brands.

> Is it as simple as a splitter?

You can use a splitter, but a diplexor will have less loss and costs less.

> I was under some impression UHF and VHF should be run on separate inputs.

Older TVs and VCRs had separate inputs for VHF and UHF. Modern equipment
has a combined input. Keeping them separate has the advantage of less
intermodulation distortion, resulting in better reception, especially on
weak stations. You can use a switchbox ($3-5) to select one or the other.
Slightly less convenient than the diplexor method.

> I am gettign ready for some quality attic time with a headlamp.

If you have a low pitch roof, measure the height available in your attic
before selecting an antenna.

VHF-HI

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html

UHF

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DAT75.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w8800.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB8.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html

FM Trap

http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?catalog_name=MCMProducts&product_id=33-341&CMP=datafeeds&ATT=froogle

Diplexors and filters

http://www.picomacom.com

Antenna manufacturers

http://www.winegard.com/
http://www.channelmaster.com/
http://www.antennacraft.net/

Mail order

http://www.solidsignal.com/
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/
http://www.summitsource.com/
http://www.starkelectronic.com/

> it has to be perfect picture

Good luck.

What kind of programming will these channels be offering I wonder?
KOXI-LD channel 20 is a low-powered television station licensed to Camas, Washington, owned by Watch TV, Inc. The station carries programming from America One.

Couldn't find out anything about KKEI-LD channel 34

Here's a list of all local stations: http://radiostationworld.com/locations/united_states_of_america/oregon/tv.asp?m=por

Is there a quality antenna dealer in the city that can sell me a decent combo or separate UHF and VHF antennas or do I need to order online?
If you're lucky enough to be in a strong reception area like I am, you won't need a VHF antenna. I was amazed to find that my UHF Yagi is doing a great job receiving all of the VHF stations.

The only disadvantage is that there's lots of ghosting in the analog channels. At those frequencies I doubt the antenna is very directional so it's picking up lots of multipath.

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/kgwntsc.jpg

Fortunately I don't watch analog channels any more and this hasn't caused any reception problems with the one ATSC station on VHF.

Ack, I need a little help. The Packers game is on this weekend ...

That's the Seahawks game, y'know! :rolleyes: ;)

Maybe if we knew where you are located someone here could give you an idea what works for them in a similar location.

NE 33rd and Alberta in downtown. I cannot see the towers because of a house or two in the way but I am pretty sure a Winegard 8800 in the attic might work great. Rabbit ears get me at 76% on most channels; and that is in the basement.

NE 33rd and Alberta in downtown. I cannot see the towers because of a house or two in the way but I am pretty sure a Winegard 8800 in the attic might work great. Rabbit ears get me at 76% on most channels; and that is in the basement.
Before going to the trouble of crawling into your attic, have you tried just repositioning your rabbit ears? If you hit 76% signal with them in your basement, I'd think there was a good chance that it's traffic or a neighbor's tree causing your dropouts and not the signal itself. Find higher ground for your rabbit ears. You could also try a more directional indoor antenna like a Silver Sensor (about $20) too.

Put a silver sensor in the attic!


ron

As of this morning, I still have problems receiving KPTV on channel 30. It's been intermittent for me, but mostly no reception. I guess I should get out my other set top box and see if it gives me better reception. I'm not ready to sign up for cable of satellite. I like watching the full bandwidth OTA signal.

Randy

Who can guess which station these are from? :-)
For best effect, have your browser or image viewer scale them up. (say 200%)
The third one looks like a photo of a CRT screen, but it is not.

http://a.imagehost.org/0148/jaggies.png

http://a.imagehost.org/0148/jaggies2.png

http://a.imagehost.org/0148/scan_lines.png

http://a.imagehost.org/0148/emer_test_text.png

I'm guessing KOIN.

I'm looking for suggestions on what I can do to get better reception - or reception at all, for that matter - in my location. I am located in the downtown area, on the south side of the hill to the north of OHSU, on Broadway Dr. I am in an apartment so an attic antenna is out of the question. I currently only have an indoor set of rabbit ears. All of the Christian stations come in perfect in digital, CW once in a while, ABC, NBC, and CBS hardly ever in digital and barely watchable in analog, and FOX is barely watchable in analog and the signal is so weak that it won't even find the signal. When I bought the antenna from Radio Shack, he said that this was a difficult area to get good reception but I am just wondering of there are any success stories here. When the digital does come in, it sure looks good, but at this point, I'd be just as happy with decent analog.

> As of this morning, I still have problems receiving KPTV on channel 30.
> It's been intermittent for me, but mostly no reception.

Haw far are you from the transmitters? You can find out from
http://www.tvfool.com How many dBm does it say you should be
getting for chan 30? Is it within a couple dB of the other digitals?
Are there other Fox stations that you could try to pull in?

What antenna are you using, and how high is it? Are you using a preamp?
If it is outside, how old is it? Have the squirrels been chewing through
the coax?

Does your tuner give you any data about the signal (signal strength,
signal quality, ...)?

How is reception of the analog UHF stations? (24, 49, 54, 35, ...)
Snow? Ghosts? Diagonal lines? Herringbone? ...

> I guess I
> should get out my other set top box and see if it gives me better
> reception.

That would be a worthwhile experiment.

> I'm not ready to sign up for cable of satellite. I like
> watching the full bandwidth OTA signal.

Cable and satellite can't guarantee good reception either.
The worst picture I've ever seen was on cable. It made
scrambled channels look and sound good in comparison.

>> Who can guess which station these are from? :-)
> I'm guessing KOIN.

Because you've seen these problems on KOIN?

Any other guesses? Scott?

> I am in an apartment so an attic antenna is out of the question.

Can you talk your landlord into installing a MATV system for the building?
A couple of good antennas and some coax and splitters don't cost very
much.

> I currently only have an indoor set of rabbit ears.

Rabbit ears have very little gain, and are not very directional.
(gain results from being directional, so they go together)
You probably don't need gain, but I suspect your problem is
multipath, which a directional antenna can help with.

Rabbit ears are usually used for VHF rather than UHF. How
is reception of KPXG digital on channel 4?

For the other digital stations on UHF, reduce the length of the
rabbit ears. For typical rabbit ears, all the way in would be
about right for UHF. The usual indoor UHF antenna is a loop.

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/RabbitEars.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/Loop.html

Some people have had good luck with the Silver Sensor.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html

An "outdoor" antenna will be more directional, reducing
multipath. You can use an outdoor antenna indoors if
you can live with the size and appearance.

The DB2 is a small outdoor UHF antenna that some people use indoors.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB2.html

> ABC, NBC, and CBS hardly ever in digital and barely watchable in analog,
> and FOX is barely watchable in analog and

The analog picture provides clues to what is wrong with the reception.
I guessing you have ghosts but little or no snow? Do you have any
diagonal lines or herringbone? ABC, NBC, CBS, and FOX analog are
all VHF, but their digitals are currently UHF. How are 24, 35, 49, 54?

> the signal is so weak that it won't even find the signal.

I suspect your signal is plenty strong enough, the problem is
probably quality, not quantity.

As of this morning, I still have problems receiving KPTV on channel 30. It's been intermittent for me, but mostly no reception. I guess I should get out my other set top box and see if it gives me better reception. I'm not ready to sign up for cable of satellite. I like watching the full bandwidth OTA signal.
RandyI don't believe any of the local stations are using their full bandwidth for their primary HD channels :). If you meant full resolution, Comcast provides full resolution pass through of the local HD channels. I watched the local digital channels OTA for 5 years before moving to Comcast a year ago. Prior to the switch I was a little apprehensive as to whether I'd be retaining the same quality as OTA. After a little fretting about it, I was relieved to find out that the HD PQ was basically indistinguishable to my very particular eyes. And of course there are no reception issues to deal with...


ron

> I don't believe any of the local stations are using their
> full bandwidth for their primary HD channels

Fox and UPN 90-93%
ABC 80-81%
WB 40-52%

Everyone else has multiple subchannels. (WB dropped their subchannel, right?
40-52% seems kinda low.)

> I don't believe any of the local stations are using their
> full bandwidth for their primary HD channels

Fox and UPN 90-93%
Fox has a variable bit rate that can drop as low as 12 Mbps.

Everyone else has multiple subchannels. (WB dropped their subchannel, right?
40-52% seems kinda low.)
If you mean KRCW, they average around 12-13 Mbps and throw the rest into the null packet toilet. In fact all stations except KPDX throw at least 2 Mbps into null packets.

>> Who can guess which station these are from? :-)
> I'm guessing KOIN.

Because you've seen these problems on KOIN?

Any other guesses? Scott?
I've seen that kind of problem on both KOIN and KATU.


In fact all stations except KPDX throw at least 2 Mbps into null packets.
It's so sad.

I cap Supernatural on CW and most of them have average bitrate around 8-9mbps and are about 2.7GB per episode. So during Supernatural that's like almost 10mbps to the toilet.

I am trying to understand what to expect from digital and hd programming. I recently installed an hd tivo for my sony hd monitor. I am currently watching cbs evening news on 6-1 channel and the picture is terrible...its blurry, I see dot crawl; it is much worse than what I used to get with my upscaled ntsc signal. My understanding is that 6-1 is a digital station and thus I should either get a decent although not hd picture or I would get no picture at all. I thought that with digital tv, you either got what was broadcast or nothing at all...or a picture that is pixilated like a damaged dvd. (Now after the news, the picture quality of 60 minutes is much better...huh? Neither appears in the the tivo guide as being hd but there seems to be much better detail in 60 minutes.)

Second issue is that HD programming like ER, CSI etc on my set has decent but not great picture quality. I expected more detail. Again, it seems comparable to the upscaled and cleaned up analog signal that I got before I installed my hd tivo. Am I getting the signal as it comes from NBC, CBS etc or is the digital (hd) signal further compressed or in some way degraded by the local stations?

Finally, is there a benchmark program in the Portland area that would show me the best that there is in HD programming?

Thanks

I am trying to understand what to expect from digital and hd programming. I recently installed an hd tivo for my sony hd monitor. I am currently watching cbs evening news on 6-1 channel and the picture is terrible...its blurry, I see dot crawl; it is much worse than what I used to get with my upscaled ntsc signal.

You have to be watching a composite analog signal to see dot crawl. It simply doesn't exist in digital or component.

How is your HD TiVo hooked up to your monitor?

That's what I thought...I am using a component video hook-up

Did you folks have crappy reception today on the Colts game? Seemed like frames dropping out. Only on the game, not on commercials or anything.

Are you sure? What does the hook up look like.

The signal simply must be going through composite for dot crawl to exist. It does not exist in digital. It does not exist in component. Something is connected completely wrong or you are receiving analog channels.

Did you folks have crappy reception today on the Colts game? Seemed like frames dropping out. Only on the game, not on commercials or anything.

I see all kinds of problems on KOIN all the time. It looks like they're coming from their network feed because I don't get any MPEG errors and the glitches recover very quickly (the network feeds have shorter GOPs than ATSC so they get cleaned up more often).

Had a few blips here and there on the CBS broadcast, on both OTA 6.1 and Verizon 806. Don't have any uncorrected errors in my TiVo diagnostics.

Scowl,

OK, I just talked with engineering at KOIN and was told that the picture would be artifact free (ie no dot crawl etc) if the the signal is digital from origination to reception but if it is converted to analog anywhere in the chain, all bets are off. He said that it is possible that for some reason CBS may have sent an analog backup feed which would explain the artifacting.

As a side note - As soon as CBS news was over, the picture quality became much better. 60 Minutes followed and it appeared as I would have expected.

I am still looking for a benchmark program that shows broadcast HD in Portland "as good as it gets". Any suggestions?

Thanks

OK, I just talked with engineering at KOIN and was told that the picture would be artifact free (ie no dot crawl etc) if the the signal is digital from origination to reception but if it is converted to analog anywhere in the chain, all bets are off. He said that it is possible that for some reason CBS may have sent an analog backup feed which would explain the artifacting.
Almost everything, even SD, is done with component equipment these days.

Some low budget programs still use composite equipment. Watch some unpopular college sports like volleyball and you'll see all the artifacts of composite preserved in digital perfection.

I am still looking for a benchmark program that shows broadcast HD in Portland "as good as it gets". Any suggestions?
If you're getting "decent but not great picture quality" from CSI, something is very wrong with your setup. All prime time scripted shows should look excellent except for some on NBC which apparently are shot on 16mm.

Scowl,
I am still looking for a benchmark program that shows broadcast HD in Portland "as good as it gets". Any suggestions?

Thanks

Agreed - the CSI stuff has great quality, as does the Tonight show, or even Boston Legal.

>>> Who can guess which station these are from? :-)

>> I'm guessing KOIN.

> I've seen that kind of problem on both KOIN and KATU.

They are actually from KOPB.

---------------

>> In fact all stations except KPDX throw at least 2 Mbps into null packets.

> It's so sad.

If the bandwidth isn't needed for the picture (and in most cases the picture
needs more) it should be used for additional forward error correction.
Wasting bandwidth on null packets is an abomination.

---------------

> I should either get a decent although not hd picture or I would get
> no picture at all.

The so-called "digital cliff" is steep, but it is not completely
vertical. There is a wide range of quality between no picture and
a perfect picture. Occasional minor errors, frequent major errors, etc.
The problem is that ATSC/8VSB doesn't have enough margin.

> Finally, is there a benchmark program in the Portland area that would
> show me the best that there is in HD programming?

Which stations do you get the best reception of? Bad reception will
spoil the best picture.

Some stations give a HD stream more bits than other stations. Post #6294
has some data on that. Some stations claim that their mpeg encoders are
more efficient.

Some program material needs more bandwidth than others. Lots of fine detail
needs more, lots of fast motion needs more.

> Am I getting the signal as it comes from NBC, CBS etc or is the digital
> (hd) signal further compressed or in some way degraded by the local stations?

My understanding is that most stations receive more bandwidth than they
could possibly fit into a 19.3 Mbps ATSC stream. If they have multiple
subchannels (KOPB, KOIN, KGW) that cuts into the bandwidth further.
Try KPDX, KPTV, and KATU if you can receive them well.

If the bandwidth isn't needed for the picture (and in most cases the picture
needs more) it should be used for additional forward error correction.
Not possible. The ATSC standard doesn't support using spare bandwidth for error correction.

Scowl,

OK, I just talked with engineering at KOIN and was told that the picture would be artifact free (ie no dot crawl etc) if the the signal is digital from origination to reception but if it is converted to analog anywhere in the chain, all bets are off. He said that it is possible that for some reason CBS may have sent an analog backup feed which would explain the artifacting.

As a side note - As soon as CBS news was over, the picture quality became much better. 60 Minutes followed and it appeared as I would have expected.

I am still looking for a benchmark program that shows broadcast HD in Portland "as good as it gets". Any suggestions?

Thanks

Hopefully you have already done this, but just in case:

Have you checked to see if your TiVo HD is outputting in 1080i or 720p? I believe these default out of the box to 480i. Press the UP cursor button to check the output resolution and press it again to change it.

Dave,
I set the video output format on my tivo to "native". My understanding is that in this mode, tivo outputs the same format it receives...there is no conversion.

I tried pressing the UP cursor and nothing happens. The info button shows a video format but I have no idea whether this is an input or output format.

Up button doesn't work for changing video output on the series 3 (and I believe HD). I'd change it to SD 480 and HD 720/1080 depending on your set, believe it's one of the hybrid modes.

I watched Comanche moon last night (recorded) and it looked great...great detail etc. Its what I expected from HD. (However I thought the dialog and acting did not do justice to the picture quality.) So I don't know what's up with CSI and ER...maybe I need to change my display to a brighter setting as CSI seems to revel in dark scenes (probably so the crew can use flashlights when ever they are examining a crime scene).

If you want detail on CSI, just wait for the Vegas fly-over bumpers between scenes. A lot of the rest of CSI is shot through diffusion, I guess to smooth out some of the wrinkles on the older cast members. You can see how much diffusion by seeing how much haze surrounds light sources. This will still give you a sharp image but remove lots of detail.

Remember that prime-time shows have a constant dilemma: they're going to be shown in both HD and SD. SD means they have to shoot a lot of close ups because most people watching small televisions just want to see the actors' faces (really!) as clearly as possible. HD means those close ups are going to be huge and unflattering, so they have to remove a lot of detail to make the actors look good.

Hey, one show you should look at is Cold Case. They're pretty good about letting the male actors look natural (the mess we see in our mirrors every morning). There is some diffusion but not as much as other shows.

In Sherwood the KPTV Ch30 signal is back to a good signal. I just hope it stays that way.

Randy

One very early network show to be broadcast in HD, in Portland, was a day time soap opera. At that time they didn't know about airbrushed makeup and diffusion filters. Some of the closeups of the actors faces were really something to see. There were splotches of makeup and lots of wrinkles.

Randy

What's going on with 6-1 tonight? The channel is breaking up really bad tonight. Even 6-2 has the same break ups. Channel 6 SD is OK. The signal strength is good 86-92.

>> In Sherwood the KPTV Ch30 signal is back to a good signal.
>> I just hope it stays that way.

> What's going on with 6-1 tonight? The channel is breaking up really
> bad tonight.

Something is very different today. KOPB-27 is sometimes better than
it has ever been and other times horrible.

I ran a quickie 2 minute test on KOIN. Tuner is happy, mpeg decoder
is happy, so reception is good. I haven't actually watched it. Sometimes
KOIN has artifacts despite the tuner and decoder being happy. Which implies
that the station sometimes transmits artifacts. (As most of our stations do
at times.) Or, given what KOPB-27 is doing today, perhaps KOIN-40 is doing
the same thing and I just happened to get a good 2 minutes.

> Even 6-2 has the same break ups. Channel 6 SD is OK.

6-2 = SD. I assume you mean that the analog channel is ok. Reception
could easily be very very different for channel 6 (analog) and channel 40
(digital) due to the frequencies involved. 6-1 and 6-2 are both part of
the same channel, the same stream of bytes, so if reception of one is bad,
the other will be bad as well.

So, what is different today?

Thanks Konrad2 for the suggestions. I am new to OTA reception and the Portland area so I appreciate all of your help.

I ran a quickie 2 minute test on KOIN. Tuner is happy, mpeg decoder
is happy, so reception is good. I haven't actually watched it. Sometimes KOIN has artifacts despite the tuner and decoder being happy. Which implies
that the station sometimes transmits artifacts.

What I'm seeing is MPEG break ups and they're definitely coming from KOIN's network feed. This has been going on for months. Occasionally you'll see frames transmitted out of order (motion will go backwards for a frame).

I have a Sony DVR (DHG-HDD250) that receives TVGOS OTA from PBS channel 10 (analog). This morning the guide was filled with "no listing". Anyone else have a similar problem?

http://a.imagehost.org/0176/jerry_crop_2x.png

Another example of OPB brain damage. (magnified 2x)

http://a.imagehost.org/0176/shift_glitch_2317_crop.png

and 2 frames later:

http://a.imagehost.org/0176/shift_glitch_2319_crop.png

Who can guess which station this is from? (not OPB this time)

Those look like normal MPEG break ups. The first frame had a corrupt slice and decoder applied them as residuals. That's why you have one line of macroblocks that have been brightened. The second I'm guessing is a series of corrupt motion vectors or prehaps correct motion vectors applied to a corrupt frame. This can literally scramble everything in a frame.

These are not artifacts of overcompression. They're the result of corrupt data either being sent by the station or being received by your decoder.

> These are not artifacts of overcompression.

I didn't say they were.

> They're the result of corrupt data either being sent by the station
> or being received by your decoder.

tuner/demodulator said
100% signal strength
90% signal quality
0 packets failed forward error correction
0 continuity counter errors (and the dtvstream utility agreed)

So it looks like reception was perfect.

The mpeg decoder did complain. My conclusion is that something glitched
at the station (or upstream) and bad mpeg data got transmitted.

Any thought on the OPB examples? Some of them look like field order
problems at the station, although in some cases it is a still photo,
so I don't know what to blame those on.

I don't know what to think about the one that looks like a
closeup of a CRT. Surely OPB hasn't resurrected kinescope?

So Konrad2, have you complained to the stations?

i am seeing the news in hd ( from temp set studio) today could be a test or they launched it early

Youtube video that i captured http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbZmdkPxvoE

i am seeing the news in hd ( from temp set studio) today could be a test or they launched it early

By golly you're right! Nancy Francis was in HD but not sure it was a temporary set. It all looked pretty good. Let's hope with this technology shift KGW has solved all their audio woes as well.

To all of you with the discerning eyes, what did you think of the two football game broadcasts?

To all of you with the discerning eyes, what did you think of the two football game broadcasts?

Well, at least the CBS broadcast didn't drop frames like it did last week. I didn't think the picture on FOX popped, but that had more to do with the frozen field than anything else.

I thought the CBS game was a poor effort compared to what I usually see/expect from them. There seemed to be a lot of variation from camera to camera in color saturation especially. The Fox game looked pretty good to me.


ron

Ready or not, here comes KGW news's first HD broadcast. 5PM. Anyone want to make a stab in the dark how good / bad it will be?
Here are some links about it... 'Insider info' at http://www.oregonmediainsiders.com/node/1432
There also on a short note on the KPTV Weather Blog about it,
http://stormteam12.typepad.com/stormteam12/2008/01/arctic-air-arri.html#comments
which I will include here to make it easier to find..
Just a quick chime in about tv and digital vs. non digital. All TV station in Portland are broadcasting two signals, one digital, one analog. Come Feb. 2009, it will be all digital. Now about High Def. KGW's roll out in HD takes place today. The studio cams will be HD. The field cameras will be shooting in 16:9, while its wide screen, they aren't HD. Field HD cams will be coming soon. So while KGW will be the first to do HD news, its only the studio cams at the moment. Weather graphics in HD look really good. I saw a preview the other day. A few changes to maps and the look of doppler 8000, but other than that, you will notice that it much more clean and clear. I can't wait for you all to see the multi level storm break down. Its awesome !

BTW, that same blog is having an interesting HD discussion currently.

Jory

> So Konrad2, have you complained to the stations?

Not yet.

Ready or not, here comes KGW news's first HD broadcast. 5PM. Anyone want to make a stab in the dark how good / bad it will be?
Here are some links about it... 'Insider info' at http://www.oregonmediainsiders.com/node/1432
There also on a short note on the KPTV Weather Blog about it,
http://stormteam12.typepad.com/stormteam12/2008/01/arctic-air-arri.html#comments
which I will include here to make it easier to find..
Just a quick chime in about tv and digital vs. non digital. All TV station in Portland are broadcasting two signals, one digital, one analog. Come Feb. 2009, it will be all digital. Now about High Def. KGW's roll out in HD takes place today. The studio cams will be HD. The field cameras will be shooting in 16:9, while its wide screen, they aren't HD. Field HD cams will be coming soon. So while KGW will be the first to do HD news, its only the studio cams at the moment. Weather graphics in HD look really good. I saw a preview the other day. A few changes to maps and the look of doppler 8000, but other than that, you will notice that it much more clean and clear. I can't wait for you all to see the multi level storm break down. Its awesome !

BTW, that same blog is having an interesting HD discussion currently.

JoryIt looked to be mostly up already this morning. Their sidebars for 4:3 content were coming and going but the studio cams all looked good. I'm sure they've been working on getting things set up/reconfigured but yesterday morning when I flipped on the news while reading the paper it was interesting... The local news video and audio were there like usual, but you could also hear what sounded like Lester Holt maybe (network feed audio?) at the same time.


ron

Just captured this new comercial for hd news it shows the new set
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEMCJc9Pr4E

Looked OK here, but my TV has icons that show stuff like "DD5.1, HD, etc" and the news did NOT have the HD icon on. Not sure why.

Their newscast said that "25%" of the households in Portland have HDTV.

Really??? I thought it more like half that at best.

Their newscast said that "25%" of the households in Portland have HDTV.

Really??? I thought it more like half that at best.


There's plenty who have the HDTV but don't have the HD signal (antenna, cable/satellite HD channels).

I like the new HD weather maps and flyovers. That was cool.
Overall I think they did a good job for the first few newscasts in HD.
The only thing that really bugged me was the blue spinning boxes used for local temps/forecasts, the perspective seemed off on them or something.

>> Their newscast said that "25%" of the households in Portland have HDTV.
>>
>> Really??? I thought it more like half that at best.
>
> There's plenty who have the HDTV but don't have the HD signal (antenna, cable/satellite HD
> channels).

I don't doubt that households like this exist, but it seems odd to spend thousands
on a new HD TV but not spend another $40 on a good antenna.

Also, they could be counting anyone with a digital tuner, whether they have a high
definition display or not, since a digital tuner will receive the HD signal.

I don't doubt that households like this exist, but it seems odd to spend thousands on a new HD TV but not spend another $40 on a good antenna.

People are thrilled by the analog reception on their HDTVs compared to their old analog sets. Real time digital processing that are in most sets has improved NTSC reception a lot. It's nearly as clean as SD digital on many sets. Kind of ironic.

Most people are convinced that it's impossible to receive acceptable television with an antenna where they are. That's why cable television was invented.

Did anyone think the black level on the KGW newscast last night was off? To me the blacks were really crushed, causing a loss of detail in dark clothing and hair. I'm not sure if this was a "look" that they were going for, but it looked strange to me.

Yes. Their studio cams looked way too dark to me as well. It was funny because when they did a piece about their new "HD set" they briefly showed a live shot from above looking down that looked just about right. Then they went back to the regular floor cams and it was right back to the blacked out look. I even thought I might send them an email asking about it but I'm sure they are still tinkering. Then again, that would be the time for good feedback I guess....


ron

>> Their newscast said that "25%" of the households in Portland have HDTV.
>>
>> Really??? I thought it more like half that at best.
>
> There's plenty who have the HDTV but don't have the HD signal (antenna, cable/satellite HD
> channels).

I don't doubt that households like this exist, but it seems odd to spend thousands
on a new HD TV but not spend another $40 on a good antenna.

Also, they could be counting anyone with a digital tuner, whether they have a high
definition display or not, since a digital tuner will receive the HD signal.


No one wants to deal with an antenna on their house. Yes indoor antenna's work, but that's not what they're thinking about. Also some see having a dish on their house not as "ugly" as an antenna even though many antenna's look nothing like the antenna's one normally thinks of at first glance.

Yes. Their studio cams looked way too dark to me as well. It was funny because when they did a piece about their new "HD set" they briefly showed a live shot from above looking down that looked just about right. Then they went back to the regular floor cams and it was right back to the blacked out look. I even thought I might send them an email asking about it but I'm sure they are still tinkering. Then again, that would be the time for good feedback I guess....


ron

I sent them an email about it and got a "We'll look into it" reply. I'm sure they will be tweeking the cameras over the next few weeks, dialing that new equipment in.

The color they really need to fix is that hideous pink lipstick they are putting on the guys in the morning newscast.

It looks like they may have made an attempt to lighten up the main studio shots but they still look too dark. At least the dark areas are not totally crushed out now. Speaking of hideous, I know it's all subjective but if it were me that paid the bill to have their new set designed I'd be asking for my money back... Personally, the "high tech", futuristic design doesn't do anything for me. A brightly illuminated, neon-like desk? It looks like they're broadcasting from the bar on Deep Space Nine. I half expect to see Quark popping up to do the weather. Give me warm and fuzzy over hard and cold (and SHINY!) any day. Don't even get me started on the continuously scrolling "KGW Newschannel 8" across the front of the desk either. It looks like KGW is going the way of NBC primetime. Oh well, enough of my negativity. The cameras look nice and sharp at least.


ron

People are thrilled by the analog reception on their HDTVs compared to their old analog sets. Real time digital processing that are in most sets has improved NTSC reception a lot. It's nearly as clean as SD digital on many sets. Kind of ironic.

Most people are convinced that it's impossible to receive acceptable television with an antenna where they are. That's why cable television was invented.

I agree. I was an early 1080P TV set adopter and was amazed at the improvement I saw on NTSC. Now that all Portland stations have digital broadcast channels, I couldn't be happier (I can live with a few blocking glitches a day). The picture on my TV is great other than some smearing of certain background images ocassionally. This is not a signal problem though, but rather a processor problem.

I will probably bite the bullet and buy a new set later this year (I'm thinking about a Sharp Aquos or Panasonic). God, I could vomit when I look at the cost of new sets that are so much better than mine at a price that is hundreds less than I paid. Such is the price of being an early adopter of any new electronic format though. Even HD-DVD players are coming down to the prices of the previous format already.

I agree. I was an early 1080P TV set adopter and was amazed at the improvement I saw on NTSC. Now that all Portland stations have digital broadcast channels, I couldn't be happier (I can live with a few blocking glitches a day). The picture on my TV is great other than some smearing of certain background images ocassionally. This is not a signal problem though, but rather a processor problem.

I will probably bite the bullet and buy a new set later this year (I'm thinking about a Sharp Aquos or Panasonic). God, I could vomit when I look at the cost of new sets that are so much better than mine at a price that is hundreds less than I paid. Such is the price of being an early adopter of any new electronic format though. Even HD-DVD players are coming down to the prices of the previous format already.
Think about those of us that bought our sets four, five, or six years ago. (maybe even longer in some cases) :)

No one wants to deal with an antenna on their house.

My neighborhood is full of satelite dishes.

Think about those of us that bought our sets four, five, or six years ago. (maybe even longer in some cases) :)

Thanks, I feel better now. :D

I agree. I was an early 1080P TV set adopter and was amazed at the improvement I saw on NTSC.

It's really amazing. Digital processing for SD resolutions has gotten so cheap that they can use tons of techniques that would have cost hundreds of dollars of hardware a few years ago. By sampling and storing frames they compare frames to isolate the true picture elements and clean out the noise and swirling junk that we've been trying to ignore in analog television all our lives. They can do intelligent sharpening (not the ugly haloing common in analog televisions) and even intelligent deinterlacing. They can recognize ghosting and reduce it digitally. In the end you end up with what's effectively a clean digital copy of the analog signal, probably as close to what they see in the studio as we'll ever get through NTSC.

I bet these sets will look really good when people start plugging ATSC adapters into them! :)

My neighborhood is full of satelite dishes.

Which is what I said earlier. People think dishes are fine (I'm one of them although now on FiOS) but most don't want an antenna on their roof. There's plenty of "non-ugly" antennas but most think of the big boom with the cross and just say no.

Thanks, I feel better now. :D
LOL, when I read your post and saw "early adopter" and "1080p", it made me smile.

There's plenty of "non-ugly" antennas but most think of the big boom with the cross and just say no.

Naturally I don't get this because there are much uglier things in my neighborhood. I've got huge telephone poles with wires all over them (stupid Comcast uglifying my neighborhood!). I've got ugly cobra-style street lights. There are chain-linked fences and iron gates. Like a few tubes of aluminum in the sky are going to be an eyesore! :)

Naturally I don't get this because there are much uglier things in my neighborhood. I've got huge telephone poles with wires all over them (stupid Comcast uglifying my neighborhood!). I've got ugly cobra-style street lights. There are chain-linked fences and iron gates. Like a few tubes of aluminum in the sky are going to be an eyesore! :)


Well at least where I've grown up on the west side, having those antennas is considered "cheap". No one wants one of those big things on their house, most houses can "hide" a dish somewhere but the antenna is normally up near a chimney for everyone to see.

Different strokes for different folks.

scowl, dishes are status symbols, antennas are for trailer trash, didn't you know that?

Well at least where I've grown up on the west side, having those antennas is considered "cheap".

It is cheap. You're getting TV for free. It's practically stealing!

scowl, dishes are status symbols, antennas are for trailer trash, didn't you know that?
I sort of know that.

I was amazed at how many dishes I saw in a "manufactured home community" I visited last summer. I guess that's one area you wouldn't want to be seen living under an aluminum antenna. You'd probably be evicted for making the community look bad.

These were all retired people living on fixed incomes of course. All the mobile homes were new and well maintained and looked as good as rows of 20x40 foot boxes could. And nearly every home had a satellite dish often bolted right next to the front door since they all faced south.

> Like a few tubes of aluminum in the sky are going to be an eyesore!

Being gray, the same color as the sky, how do people see them?
They're camouflaged.

I just assume anyone who thinks antennas are ugly is a stockholder
in the cable/sat companies.

scowl, it was probably an incentive thrown in to get people to buy there and not somewhere else. :)

Konrad2, it's because it really has less to do with aesthetics than it does egos.

Naturally I don't get this because there are much uglier things in my neighborhood. I've got huge telephone poles with wires all over them (stupid Comcast uglifying my neighborhood!).
Squirrels love them though. When Comcast came through Irvington 30 years ago those thick wire bundles worked as a squirrel highway. The squirrels were able to go all around the neighborhood from tree to tree without having to go down to the ground. Safe from cars, dogs and cats the squirrel population just exploded.:)

It is cheap. You're getting TV for free. It's practically stealing!

So you just go out and steal an antenna to watch this free tv? Where can I sign up??? No one knows that you can get HD for free from the antenna, people still figure that all you can get is the regular channels.

scowl, dishes are status symbols, antennas are for trailer trash, didn't you know that?


And it's over your head as well, not surprising. :D

>
I just assume anyone who thinks antennas are ugly is a stockholder
in the cable/sat companies.

Why do you hate money?

ahwwww, how cute, did you puff up your chest real big too? :D

ahwwww, how cute, did you puff up your chest real big too? :D


Nope, just reminded myself that I didn't have a Motorola 6412 box and everything cleared up on it's own. It's Comcastic!

Now that we have determined that what kind of antenna is on the roof will affect property values, I have a question. I am trying to boost my property value so I think an antenna that most people don't recognize will be a good feature to add to my roof. I am considering putting a DTA-5000 on my roof. If anyone asks, I will tell them that I am trying to reduce my carbon footprint so I have installed a wind powered electric generator. (just kidding)

Seriously though, I has anyone tried one a DTA5000 or a similar "smart" antenna? The reason I am considering one is because I have reception issues when the wind is strong. I could probably add some guy wires to stablize the mast but that would be a pain in the arse.

Do "smart" antennae actually work? It seems that they don't have much gain. Also, how reliable are they since they use an amplifier?

Squirrels love them though. When Comcast came through Irvington 30 years ago those thick wire bundles worked as a squirrel highway.

Yes, I have the squirrel highway in my neighborhood too since I have huge old trees that they pass through. It's fun during the spring to watch them run all over them fighting over territory. They tend to stick to the much thicker telephone cables though -- my poles collect the phone lines from several neighborhoods before they go underground to the central office.

I installed a big ugly TV antenna from Radio Shack in my attic. I think it cost me something like $40 and an additional $20 for the mounting brackets. It works very well. You loose a few dB of signal if you mount the antenna in the attic but it still pulls in a good digital signal. I'm in Sherwood which is a very marginal area for analog OTA TV reception, even with a big ugly antenna in the attic. Using the same antenna I got perfect reception after I switched to digital OTA TV.

Randy

> Do "smart" antennae actually work?

Smart antennae are for smart bugs. Hmmm does Intel make tuners? :-)

Wouldn't you need a separate smart antenna for each tuner?
If you have idiot "antennas are ugly" neighbors that complain
about one antenna, imagine if you had 4 or 5.

And they would only be smart if connected to a tuner that can talk to it,
which would severely limit your choices.

> It seems that they don't have much gain.

Gain implies directionality, which is your friend even if signal strength
isn't a problem.

I am just wondering, is this antenna issue about not wanting an antenna or a HOA saying you can't have an antenna. If it is the later, they can not do that.

I am just wondering, is this antenna issue about not wanting an antenna or a HOA saying you can't have an antenna. If it is the later, they can not do that.

LOL. All that business about asthetics was just a joke I made up in response to some of the other posts. I have a big VHF / UHF antenna on my roof. The problem I am having is that when the wind gets up to about 30 MPH I start having reception problems.

I read a post that mentioned the DTA-5000 "smart" antenna and was wondering if it would be less prone to movement in the wind because of their shape. I am also wondering about the claim that "smart" antennae have signal sensing circuitry that seeks the strongest signal automatically.

> Do "smart" antennae actually work?

Smart antennae are for smart bugs. Hmmm does Intel make tuners? :-)

Wouldn't you need a separate smart antenna for each tuner?
If you have idiot "antennas are ugly" neighbors that complain
about one antenna, imagine if you had 4 or 5.

And they would only be smart if connected to a tuner that can talk to it,
which would severely limit your choices.

> It seems that they don't have much gain.

Gain implies directionality, which is your friend even if signal strength
isn't a problem.

After a bit of googling, I get what you are saying. A smart antenna requires a tuner with a EIA/CEA-909 standard interface in order to find the best direction. Without a compatible tuner the antenna would just be a dumb double diplole antenna. I am not going to go out and buy a new tuner so I guess I'l just have to suck it up add some guy wires to my mast. If that fails, I'll most likely try a powered rotator mast.

> I have a big VHF / UHF antenna on my roof. The problem I am having is that
> when the wind gets up to about 30 MPH I start having reception problems.

Is it your antenna that is blowing around, or trees?

If you have an attic you could try an antenna in the attic.

I've been seeing more and more antennas going up in my neighborhood. I think some people are catching on that with Digital TV you can get all sorts of channels in perfectly that were once fuzzy or didn't come in at all, and no need to pay extra for them to be in HD.

KGW's listing for this evening still says "To Be Announced".
Yo, KGW, when are you planning to decide?
KGW isn't the only station that does this.

As long as I'm ranting about program listings, it would
be nice if CBS/KOIN had descriptions for shows/movies
instead of just the title.

The program info doesn't come directly from the stations, but rather one of the guide services. So if there's an issue with, or connecting to, that service it is passed on to us with the PSIP data.

My past experience has been that if you contact the station and let them know, they do try to resolve the issue.

edited to add.... the only listing on KGW that says TBA is from 7:30 - 8:00, following the State of the Union address.

As long as I'm ranting about program listings, it would
be nice if CBS/KOIN had descriptions for shows/movies
instead of just the title.
It does on my program guide.

edited to add...

I don't know if it matters but I use a standalone tuner since not only don't I have 1080p, but I got my set before they were even including tuners. :)

Could it be some kind of decoding issue you're having?
I verified my guide and it gives not only the title but full descriptions for each of the shows on KOIN tonight.

If I remember correctly, Lee was quite open and responsive to requests concerning the PSIP data when KOIN was first bringing it online.

I'm not talking about the PSIP. The PSIP only provides a few hours,
so I haven't bothered hunting down a utility to decode the data.

If you go to kgw.com or koin.com and hunt down schedule and click
on it, they both go to titantv.com. (as do most of our stations)

Titan provides schedules for a couple weeks (if you register
you can get all the channels on a grid).

Titan *still* has kgw listed as "local programming" 7:30-8pm and
"tba" 8-9pm. Other channels have had the same problem. The titan
listings only rarely have descriptions for shows/movies on koin.

I'm not talking about the PSIP. The PSIP only provides a few hours,
so I haven't bothered hunting down a utility to decode the data.
That varies by station. KOIN for example has programming via PSIP out to Sunday. (5 days)

If you go to kgw.com or koin.com and hunt down schedule and click
on it, they both go to titantv.com. (as do most of our stations)
I don't use the web pages to find the schedule, it's easier to go directly to TitanTV.

Titan provides schedules for a couple weeks (if you register
you can get all the channels on a grid).Yes, with program descriptions too, including those programs on KOIN.

Titan *still* has kgw listed as "local programming" 7:30-8pm and
"tba" 8-9pm. Other channels have had the same problem. The titan
listings only rarely have descriptions for shows/movies on koin.
That's a TitanTV issue, I suppose you could blame it on KGW/KOIN since they link to TitanTV on their web page, though I don't feel that's fair.

KGW 8-1 and 8-2 are not coming in here in Salem however Comcast 708 is fine, as is regular channel 8 OTA.

KGW-DT is coming in just fine here within sight of the blinking red towers.

KPDX 49-1 also out at the same time while 49 was still fine. They both just came back on literally just before I typed this at around 7:35

Also, I'm in Salem if that means anything.

O.K. I was wrong, I was actually looking at 8.1 cable, that was fine. OTA 8.1, 8.2, 49.1 are not getting a good signal from zero to 25 but never enough to show a picture. 6.1 and 12.1 are 80% to full strength (normal for my antenna) and 2.1 is fluctuating between 70% to 85% (pretty much normal as well). Also 24.1-5 are also all weak. 8 comes in about as well as it ever does, which isn't all that well, same with 49 it's about the same picture quality as usual as well. Just the digital versions of those channels have the issue.

There is snow on my antenna, not a whole lot, but it does have a little snow on it. Would that cause a few channels to go out completely or nearly out while the others remain as strong as ever?

> OTA 8.1, 8.2, 49.1 are not getting a good signal from zero to 25
> but never enough to show a picture.

What numbers do you normally get for these stations?

> 6.1 and 12.1 are 80% to full strength and 2.1 is fluctuating between 70% to 85%
> . Also 24.1-5 are also all weak. 8 comes in about as well as it ever does, which
> isn't all that well, same with 49 it's about the same picture quality as usual
> as well. Just the digital versions of those channels have the issue.

knmt-45, kgw-46 and kpdx-48 are fine here (under 5 miles, antenna in attic
protected from snow and ice)

koin is channel 40 and katu is 43.

So 40 and 43 are ok, then bad for 45, 46, 48, and good on 49.

> There is snow on my antenna, not a whole lot, but it does have a little
> snow on it.

Snow? In Salem? With all that hot air from the capital?

> Would that cause a few channels to go out
> completely or nearly out while the others remain as strong as ever?

Hard to imagine that snow on the antenna hurts channel 48 but not 49.
Does 49 have more snow (in the picture) than usual? Analog degrades
a *lot* more gracefully than digital.

48 is the lowest power UHF digital, and is the highest frequency digital.
(higher frequencies require more transmitter power) So you might expect
48 to be the first digital to go, if other things are equal. Naturally, other
things aren't always equal, 48 has been my *most* reliable station, zero errors
since they replaced that elbow in August.

How is channel 54 (analog)? 54 is only 105 KW compared to 49 at 2950 KW.
If you have a signal strength problem with upper UHF, 54 should be very snowy.

Is there any chance that water got into the connections? How old are the
antenna/balun/coax?

>> If you go to kgw.com or koin.com and hunt down schedule and click
>> on it, they both go to titantv.com. (as do most of our stations)
>
> I don't use the web pages to find the schedule, it's easier to go directly to TitanTV.

Agreed. My point is that since kgw and koin both have their web sites
linking to titan, you could consider titan to be an official source of listings
for these stations.

As opposed to opb which has their own web listings and doesn't link to titan.

> Yes, with program descriptions too, including those programs on KOIN.

Some koin shows have descriptions, others don't. Movies on koin usually don't.
With just the name of the movie you can't tell if it is the original or a remake.

>> Titan *still* has kgw listed as "local programming" 7:30-8pm and
>> "tba" 8-9pm. Other channels have had the same problem. The titan
>> listings only rarely have descriptions for shows/movies on koin.

> That's a TitanTV issue

If kgw/koin don't provide titan with the info, it is kinda hard for
titan to provide it to us.

Well the antenna and such is a new install from this summer, and there's no way water is getting into the coax (not only does it have a rubber cover, but I taped it as well)

It must be the snow, I got both KPDX HD and KGW HD back for a little while after the snow began melting, then they were gone once snow piled on again. Still, bizarre that it doesn't do anything to the other channels.

Fox HD and Koin HD are coming in same as ever, same strength as normal, KATU HD might be a little lower but not much.

Now I guess I have to figure out a way to shake the snow off with out climbing up there when it snows.

> Now I guess I have to figure out a way to shake the snow off
> with out climbing up there when it snows.

Set up a guy wire that comes down to the ground.
Antenna rotator.
Fasten a string to a tennis ball and practice your fast ball.
Compressed air hose fastened to a long pole.
Fasten a small motor with an out of balance load to the mast.
Train the squirrels. :-)
However if you get ice, it will be a lot harder to shake off
than snow.

Perhaps there is an antenna with more gain at upper UHF
than your current antenna?

If you don't have a lot of strong stations you could try a preamp.

Did anyone get mpeg decoding errors during _House_ last night?

Tuner says 100% signal strength, 90% signal quality,
0 forward error correction errors, 0 continuity counter errors.

And yet there were 3 spots with mpeg decoding errors.

_House_ usually decodes cleanly.

>> If you go to kgw.com or koin.com and hunt down schedule and click
>> on it, they both go to titantv.com. (as do most of our stations)
>
> I don't use the web pages to find the schedule, it's easier to go directly to TitanTV.

Agreed. My point is that since kgw and koin both have their web sites
linking to titan, you could consider titan to be an official source of listings
for these stations.

As opposed to opb which has their own web listings and doesn't link to titan.

> Yes, with program descriptions too, including those programs on KOIN.

Some koin shows have descriptions, others don't. Movies on koin usually don't.
With just the name of the movie you can't tell if it is the original or a remake.

>> Titan *still* has kgw listed as "local programming" 7:30-8pm and
>> "tba" 8-9pm. Other channels have had the same problem. The titan
>> listings only rarely have descriptions for shows/movies on koin.

> That's a TitanTV issue

If kgw/koin don't provide titan with the info, it is kinda hard for
titan to provide it to us.I would imagine that the primetime stream show descriptions are provided from the network, and the local programming info by the affiliate. I've been using Titan for six years and don't really recall any issues with lack of KOIN info there. I'm sure you know but just to check, you are clicking on the show name to bring up the secondary window with the detailed descriptions right?

BTW, I noticed that last night and again this morning KGW announced on air that they are going to be opening a new, second HD studio in Pioneer Square for the morning and noon news broadcasts. It sounds like they want the Today Show look with all the street people in the background, as they mentioned it will be open with windows to the square/street.

http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_012908_news_kgw_pioneer_square_studio_hd.6eb2e27b.html


ron

> I would imagine that the primetime stream show descriptions are provided from
> the network, and the local programming info by the affiliate.

Seems like a reasonable theory.

> I've been using Titan for six years and don't really recall any issues with
> lack of KOIN info there. I'm sure you know but just to check, you are
> clicking on the show name to bring up the secondary window with the
> detailed descriptions right?

Right. Titan is a bit inconsistent, sometimes the grid square has a
short description, sometimes not. Sometimes the secondary window has an
episode description even if the grid square just has the name of the
show.

For example: _Big_Bang_Theory_ has never has an episode description,
in either the grid window or the secondary window. All they have is:

Big Bang Theory
8:30 PM, 30 min
Mon 01/21/2008
KOIN 6
English

Movies are often the same.

------

> BTW, I noticed that last night and again this morning KGW announced on
> air that they are going to be opening a new, second HD studio

Speaking of HD news, the PBS Newshour and NBR were on HD Monday,
probably due to the speech. NBR was 4:3 pillarboxed, so it may have
been upscaled from SD.

Hello all. I attempting to kick Comcast out of my house and go with OTA. So far, it is going well (in fact I swear the HD pictures coming directly from KGW and others are far better than what i was getting through Comcast. I have put in a Channel Master Stealth Antenna with the built in amp, and connected it as the source in place of the incoming cable. I'm in Beaverton, about 7.5 miles from the PDX antennas -- I'm not behind a hill, but don't quite have a direct line of site either. there are three TV's: two with built-in ATSC tuners and the third is getting its signal via a Phillips DVDR with an ATSC tuner. I have a few questions that I'm hoping I can resolve here.

Problem: I'm having a bit of trouble picking up 49 on all TVs, and KOIN via the DVDR tuner. antennaweb shows I should have a Yellow antenna, pointed in the same direction for all channels but 49, which is only 7 degrees counter-clockwise from the rest of the Portland stations. I also know there is some degree of difference in sensitivity of tuners, so perhaps that is why the DVDR tuner doesn't pick up KOIN. Also, I'm trying to keep the antenna located in the attic, as I do live in an HOA; a small dish style antenna would be OK, but the big fish-bone arrangement would not go over well.

Question: Is there a better antenna/amp combination I should look at?

I'm thinking that it would have a wider angle of direction so that I can capture 49 without turning the antenna, and an amp to ensure sufficient signal for the DVDR tuner. I'm thinking of trying out the Channel Master 4221 or even the 4228 with an amp, but these are UHF tuned antennas and I understand that some of the local channels will go to broadcasting on VHF after the DTV conversion is complete next Feb.

Thanks in advance!

> I attempting to kick Comcast out of my house and go with OTA.

Good for you!

> I'm having a bit of trouble picking up 49 on all TVs, and KOIN via the DVDR tuner.

I assume you mean channel 48. 49 is analog.

How is reception of KPTV-30 and KRCW-33?

Sorted by tower location

actual tower WGS84/NAD83 transmitter
channel Coordinates power


KOIN 40 east 122.7327 839 kW
KRCW 33 east 122.7328 750 kW
KNMT 45 east 122.7334 1000 kW
KATU 43 east 122.7342 500 kW
KPXG 4 center ? 16 kW
KOPB 27 center 122.7458 381 kW
KGW 46 center 122.7458 1000 kW
KPTV 30 west 122.7481 741 kW
KPDX 48 west 122.7519 200 kW

Do the analog stations have any ghosts? snow? diagonal lines?

> Question 1s there a better antenna/amp combination I should look at?

Yes. At 7.5 miles the amp is probably overloading and creating
intermodulation distortion, which hurts the weaker stations.
48 is the lowest power UHF digital. How are analog channels 5 and 54?

> I'm thinking that it would have a wider angle of direction so that
> I can capture 49 without turning the antenna

The towers aren't far apart enough to need that. Get a high gain
antenna so that you will get less multipath.

The Channel Master 4228 you mention is a good choice. Also
consider the Winegard PR-8800, the AntennasDirect DB-8, and
the AntennasDirect XG91. If you decide on one of the 8-bays,
make sure your attic is tall enough.

> some of the local channels will go to broadcasting on VHF

Yes, KGW will be on 8, KOPB will be on 10, and KPTV will be on 12.
For these, get a VHF-HI antenna (smaller than VHF-everything,
and better reception) such as Winegard YA-1713 VHF-HI or
Antennacraft Y10-7-13.

I suggest running a separate coax for each antenna, at least down from
the attic if not to every TV. Fewer stations on the coax means less
intermodulation distortion and thus better reception. Filtering out
the frequencies that aren't in the TV bands helps as well.

> I do live in an HOA

The FCC says you have the legal right to an outdoor antenna and
they overrule any HOA.

> I'm trying to keep the antenna located in the attic

Having the antenna in the attic will protect it from wind, ice/snow, etc.
With the antenna indoors you don't have to ground it. You will lose some
signal strength depending on the building construction, and maybe pick up
some multipath. It is a tradeoff.

I have PR-8800 and YA-1713 in the attic and get 100% signal strength on all
digital channels after a 4-way splitter. (no amplifier) The analog VHF-HI
and UHF stations come in beautifully. My problem stations are 27 and 33, but
not due to signal strength.

Thanks for your quick response

>I assume you mean channel 48. 49 is analog.
I mean KPDX, which means yes, it is on frequency 48 (?)

>How is reception of KPTV-30 and KRCW-33?
KPTV-30 (Fox) has been OK.
KCRW (CW) - I'm responding fr/work so I can't tell right now, but I don't watch that channel any so I haven't been looking to receive it. As long as I can reliably get ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox (for Dancing with Stars, Survivor, Medium and American Idol), I can keep the wife on board with this plan. :)

There was some program on 49 (48) Monday night that she wanted to watch and expressed her displeasure when the image kept breaking up. So I have to include that one...

>At 7.5 miles the amp is probably overloading and creating
intermodulation distortion, which hurts the weaker stations.
48 is the lowest power UHF digital. How are analog channels 5 and 54?
I'll remove the amp tonight and check. I usually delete the analog channels as soon as I do a scan, so I haven't paid much attention, but the quality has always seemed poor.

>The Channel Master 4228 you mention is a good choice. Also
consider the Winegard PR-8800, the AntennasDirect DB-8, and
the AntennasDirect XG91. If you decide on one of the 8-bays,
make sure your attic is tall enough.
Where would I get those?

>For these, get a VHF-HI antenna (smaller than VHF-everything,
and better reception) such as Winegard YA-1713 VHF-HI or
Antennacraft Y10-7-13.

I suggest running a separate coax for each antenna, at least down from
the attic if not to every TV. Fewer stations on the coax means less
intermodulation distortion and thus better reception. Filtering out
the frequencies that aren't in the TV bands helps as well.

I'm trying to utilize the existing coax as much as possible as I don't want a new cable runs stapled to the outside of the house. The current cable coax run has a short run exposed as it passes through the attic. Assuming I get two antennas (and it sounds like I can wait until next year on this part), can I combine into a single coax and tap into the cable run in the attic?

After leaving the attic, the coax goes into the wall and runs to an access plate, where it is split and runs to connections in the rest of the house.

>The FCC says you have the legal right to an outdoor antenna and
they overrule any HOA.
i know that. But notwithstanding any legal right, you can't regulate what neighbors will think. Besides, I wouldn't want a big antenna on a house in this neighborhood either.


>I have PR-8800 and YA-1713 in the attic and get 100% signal strength on all
digital channels after a 4-way splitter. (no amplifier) The analog VHF-HI
and UHF stations come in beautifully. My problem stations are 27 and 33, but
not due to signal strength.

Thanks again for the advice!

>> The Channel Master 4228 you mention is a good choice. Also consider the
>> Winegard PR-8800, the AntennasDirect DB-8, and the AntennasDirect XG91.
>> If you decide on one of the 8-bays, make sure your attic is tall enough.
>
> Where would I get those?

Antenna manufacturers

http://www.winegard.com/
http://www.channelmaster.com/
http://www.antennacraft.net/

Mail order

http://www.solidsignal.com/
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/
http://www.summitsource.com/
http://www.starkelectronic.com/

Google can probably find other places that sell them. I was unable to
find the antennas I wanted locally.

> Assuming I get two antennas (and it sounds like I can wait until next year
> on this part),

KPXG is currently channel 4 for digital, 54 for analog. If you want the
digital KPXG (it has subchannels that aren't on analog) you might have
trouble using a UHF antenna. These are both low power. I usually get
4 okay with the YA-1713 even though it is a VHF-HI antenna. I had to
separate UHF and VHF to get 54 without interference. A year from now 4
is supposed to move to 22.

If you don't care about KPXG (I don't see it in your list of stations that
your wife wants) and you don't care about analogs, the other digitals are
all UHF until the big switchover a year from now.

> can I combine into a single coax and tap into the cable run
> in the attic?

You can connect UHF and VHF antennas together using a diplexor, and then
run a single coax from that point. I did this until I figured out that
I got better reception keeping them separate.

The Pico Macom UVSJ diplexor runs $1-3. http://www.picomacom.com
There are other brands, and some will be available locally.

I would imagine that the primetime stream show descriptions are provided from the network, and the local programming info by the affiliate. I've been using Titan for six years and don't really recall any issues with lack of KOIN info there. I'm sure you know but just to check, you are clicking on the show name to bring up the secondary window with the detailed descriptions right?



ron

Ron, if the head of TitanTV is to be believed on his blog this is what he says about content origination.

http://blog.jackperry.com/pt/blog/default.aspx?id=195&t=Titan-users-I-got-your-feedback
TitanTV users said: We don't like it when there is data missing or it is incorrect. We hate missing channels.

Me, too. I hate bad data. What you may not know is that in the TV listings space there are really only two players, TV Guide and Tribune Media Services. Everyone gets their data from one of these two companies. Our base data used to come from Tribune, but for the past few years it has been TV Guide. Truth is neither company is equipped to handle the web. We recognized this years ago and built our own system to collect real-time programming changes from the television stations themselves. The notion suggested by several TitanTV members to go direct to the channels like Travel Network, Spike, etc is a great one. We'll do it. Give us some time. These guys are used to faxing their lineups to TMS and TV Guide.

So it looks like TV Guide and TMS are where the stations provide their info to, then it is passed along to the various outlets. It seems TitanTV does allow stations to upload info directly but the little research I did suggests that TitanTV charges the stations for that service. Which is most likely why their base info still comes from one of the big 2.

edited to add a bit more....
I have been using TitanTV for almost as long as you have and like you, have found it to be a fairly good source for programming. The have changed some over the years though. Early on I used the link they provide to report incorrect listings and received a nice response thanking me for my interest in TitanTV and telling me they would look into the problem and work to resolve it.

About a year ago, based on the response I received from my earlier contact I again used the "report" link, this time I received a form letter stating that they were not responsible for incorrect listings since they just passed through the data they received and had no control over it.

The difference between being a start up and one of the major players I guess.

>> The Channel Master 4228 you mention is a good choice. Also consider the
>> Winegard PR-8800, the AntennasDirect DB-8, and the AntennasDirect XG91.
>> If you decide on one of the 8-bays, make sure your attic is tall enough.
>
> Where would I get those?

Antenna manufacturers

http://www.winegard.com/
http://www.channelmaster.com/
http://www.antennacraft.net/

Mail order

http://www.solidsignal.com/
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/
http://www.summitsource.com/
http://www.starkelectronic.com/

Google can probably find other places that sell them. I was unable to
find the antennas I wanted locally.

> Assuming I get two antennas (and it sounds like I can wait until next year
> on this part),

KPXG is currently channel 4 for digital, 54 for analog. If you want the
digital KPXG (it has subchannels that aren't on analog) you might have
trouble using a UHF antenna. These are both low power. I usually get
4 okay with the YA-1713 even though it is a VHF-HI antenna. I had to
separate UHF and VHF to get 54 without interference. A year from now 4
is supposed to move to 22.

If you don't care about KPXG (I don't see it in your list of stations that
your wife wants) and you don't care about analogs, the other digitals are
all UHF until the big switchover a year from now.

> can I combine into a single coax and tap into the cable run
> in the attic?

You can connect UHF and VHF antennas together using a diplexor, and then
run a single coax from that point. I did this until I figured out that
I got better reception keeping them separate.

The Pico Macom UVSJ diplexor runs $1-3. http://www.picomacom.com
There are other brands, and some will be available locally.

Thanks again. In case anyone is looking, and depending on which model you're looking for, I found some Channel Master Antennas in stock @ Vern L Wenger (5904 SW Beaverton-Hillsdale Highway, Portland, 503-292-9211), and at Fry's. Channel Master also has a local distributer who might be able to tell you other local dealers. I have yet to run into any Winegard antenna dealers.

SMART ANTENNA info is summarized in the SD-STB (NTIA Coupon) thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13015675&posted=1#post13015675

My apologies for the slightly off topic question. But do any of you folks know what mechanism will be used for a SAP substitute when analog TV goes away? Is there a protocol in place in DTV for secondary audio, such as descriptive video or alternative language? The reason I ask is that I volunteer for OPB in their radio reading service, which uses SAP as one of its delivery mechanism (and the one that most blind people use), and they're telling us that there's no clear substitute for SAP (internet is hard for the blind, especially the older blind, and HD radio is too expensive and not ubiquitous). I'm thinking that the DTV specs must include something to provide the same functionality, but I don't know that.

Yes, ATSC permits secondary audio streams. KOIN has the "descriptive audio" in a secondary stream. It isn't the best quality (DD2.0 at 192 Kbps) but it's there. KOPB also has a SAP audio stream. It's the same as the SAP audio as on their analog station. I don't know how you would switch these audio streams in on a regular ATSC receiver since I'm a geek and I just type in the PIDs of the streams.

The KOPB HD Radio station also broadcasts their radio reading service on their HD-3 channel.

The reason I ask is that I volunteer for OPB in their radio reading service, which uses SAP as one of its delivery mechanism (and the one that most blind people use), and they're telling us that there's no clear substitute for SAP (internet is hard for the blind, especially the older blind, and HD radio is too expensive and not ubiquitous).
I disagree with that. HD Radio receivers are cheaper and more available than ATSC receivers right now and it's a lot easier to turn a knob to KOPB HD-3 than hunt down secondary audio tracks on a television channel.

Stream contains 4 program(s).
Default program is 3.
Program 3: 10-1 KOPB-HD:
PID=0x31 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x34 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
Program 4: 10-2 KOPB-SD:
PID=0x41 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x44 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x45 Audio (MPEG-2), language = eng
PID=0x46 Audio (MPEG-2), language = spa
Program 5: 10-3 Create:
PID=0x51 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x54 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
Program 6: 10-4 OC:
PID=0x61 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x64 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng

It looks like KOPB-SD already has *three* audio streams.
What they need is a couple more channels to hold all this stuff
without compressing it to death.

> HD radio is too expensive

Before they added stereo to NTSC, there used to be simulcasts
on FM radio for things like concerts.

I disagree with that. HD Radio receivers are cheaper and more available than ATSC receivers right now and it's a lot easier to turn a knob to KOPB HD-3 than hunt down secondary audio tracks on a television channel.

The problem with HD radio is also coverage. OPB's is only available in the Portland area. I don't think they have the equipment set up elsewhere.

Speaking of OPB and audio, has anyone else noticed OPB TV 10.1 audio that sometimes has an echo to it? Or is it just my TV? It sounds like a "robot" or "tunnel" echo effect. ~2 to 3 ms delay. It happened (faintly) during the entirety of "African American Lives 2" on 10.1 last night. I've heard it a couple times on "Soundstage" (10.1) and I just heard it right now prominently on "Legends of Jazz" (10.1) 3pm Thursday.

At the top of the hour when that show was over, the echo went away. 10.2, .3. and .4 were unaffected. I think I've heard it on 6.1 or 8.1 one other time, but it's happened on 10.1 at least 4 times in the past 6 weeks.

I'm using cheap rabbit-ears-n-UHF-loop on a brand new Panasonic LCD TV, via the built-in speakers. I'm 7 miles from the towers with slight multi-path issues and >92% signal. I adjusted my TV's sound settings (BBE and virtual surround off) and power cycled, but that didn't help.

> Speaking of OPB and audio, has anyone else noticed OPB TV 10.1 audio
> that sometimes has an echo to it?

> "Legends of Jazz"

Sometimes the intro to "Legends of Jazz" sounds like someone is talking
into a wastebacket.

Ron, if the head of TitanTV is to be believed on his blog this is what he says about content origination.

http://blog.jackperry.com/pt/blog/default.aspx?id=195&t=Titan-users-I-got-your-feedback


So it looks like TV Guide and TMS are where the stations provide their info to, then it is passed along to the various outlets. It seems TitanTV does allow stations to upload info directly but the little research I did suggests that TitanTV charges the stations for that service. Which is most likely why their base info still comes from one of the big 2.

edited to add a bit more....
I have been using TitanTV for almost as long as you have and like you, have found it to be a fairly good source for programming. The have changed some over the years though. Early on I used the link they provide to report incorrect listings and received a nice response thanking me for my interest in TitanTV and telling me they would look into the problem and work to resolve it.

About a year ago, based on the response I received from my earlier contact I again used the "report" link, this time I received a form letter stating that they were not responsible for incorrect listings since they just passed through the data they received and had no control over it.

The difference between being a start up and one of the major players I guess.Faxing in their programming linups? I suspect he didn't mean that literally. Or at least I would hope not in this digital day and age of the internet anyway. That's interesting though. Thanks for the info.


ron

Faxing in their programming linups? I suspect he didn't mean that literally. Or at least I would hope not in this digital day and age of the internet anyway. That's interesting though. Thanks for the info.


ron
old dogs, new tricks?

Speaking of OPB and audio, has anyone else noticed OPB TV 10.1 audio that sometimes has an echo to it? Or is it just my TV?

I recorded an OPB Nature's show last week (from Comcast) and had the same issue. It's not just your TV, or OTA issue.

Yes, I have had that experience with a few different shows on OPB HD. And it's not the show itself, as I saw the same show in a different time slot and the sound was fine. I've noticed it at times on Legends of Jazz and some nature shows (can't remember the names) The one show I remember watching twice once had the issue the other time did not was the nature show about the Parrots in Australia. (great show by the way.)

Hi, I've been reading about the demise of analog ota. I've read that the CBS affiliates (KOIN) will be carrying the TVGOS digitally. Does anyone know if this is currently being done or when it will happen?

I was hoping to split my down lead to one of the $40 ATSC boxes set to analog channel 3 output tuned to digital channel 6 and then diplex it and the other split lead, back to one coax and into my LG LST3410a. I'm hoping to receive the TVGOS data after feb 09.
Can/could this work?

If this works for the LG, it should also work for the Sony ota dvrs also.


On a different topic: I'm not particularily proficient operating this laptop. A lot of Konrad2's posts end up in boxes with sliders on the side and bottom making his posts a pita to read. What can I do to fix this? I need Help!:D

Hi, I've been reading about the demise of analog ota. I've read that the CBS affiliates (KOIN) will be carrying the TVGOS digitally. Does anyone know if this is currently being done or when it will happen?
TVGOS is replaced with PSIP in ATSC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TVGOS

On a different topic: I'm not particularily proficient operating this laptop. A lot of Konrad2's posts end up in boxes with sliders on the side and bottom making his posts a pita to read. What can I do to fix this? I need Help!:D
That's because Konrad2 doesn't know how to use the quote functions in this forum. Fortunately everyone else does.

>> On a different topic: I'm not particularily proficient
>> operating this laptop. A lot of Konrad2's posts end up
>> in boxes with sliders on the side and bottom making his
>> posts a pita to read.

Sorry. I try to keep lines under 80 columns but sometimes
a longer line sneeks through. I'm not sure what you mean by
"in boxes", but I often have the same problem with posts where
someone has included a very long line. Yes, having to scroll
horizontally as well as vertically is a pain. Shrinking the
font size helps, at the expense of making the text hard to
read. grumble

IIRC, the site is allegedly "designed" (cough) for a 1024x768
window. But the problem still happens, even with a window
wider than that. Complaints fall on deaf ears. Don't get me
started on web sites that are "designed" for a particular
window size or browser.

> That's because Konrad2 doesn't know how to use the quote
> functions in this forum.

When people use the forum's brain dead quote function,
it is nearly impossible to tell which text is the
quote and which is the new text. (your browser/screen
may vary)

Sorry. I try to keep lines under 80 columns but sometimes
a longer line sneeks through.
This isn't a BBS from the 80's. Quote using the quote tags and let the forum software format your text like everyone else does. 80 column lines went out with IBM punch cards.

>> On a different topic: I'm not particularily proficient
>> operating this laptop. A lot of Konrad2's posts end up
>> in boxes with sliders on the side and bottom making his
>> posts a pita to read.

When people use the forum's brain dead quote function,
it is nearly impossible to tell which text is the
quote and which is the new text. (your browser/screen
may vary)

Tell me how can I tell who wrote the ">>" text above using your antiquated Usenet quoting scheme?

On a different topic: I'm not particularily proficient operating this laptop. A lot of Konrad2's posts end up in boxes with sliders on the side and bottom making his posts a pita to read. What can I do to fix this? I need Help!:D
It happens when he wraps his text using the code tags, there's nothing you can do about it.

Whoa! I didn't intend to cause this much stress. Please forget I even asked about the boxes.:D

scowl: I'm still digging for TVGOS's future availability. TVGOS has stated they will send their 7 day program guide digitally over CBS affiliates OTA.

Then it gets more complicated by the $40 box building rules which seem to say the boxes have to output analog VBI. This is supposedly where the sap and TVGOS info (and possibly a lot more stuff) is located.

I know there are a lot of dvd recorders that use the TVGOS program guides. They will be left in the dust also if someone can't figure out how to get the guide to them.

I still don't know if koin has already started sending the TVGOS. I wonder if new dvd recorders with digital tuners are getting their guides from analog or from digital.

I plan to get two of the $40 boxes as soon as they are available and see what happens.

scowl: I'm still digging for TVGOS's future availability. TVGOS has stated they will send their 7 day program guide digitally over CBS affiliates OTA.

Then it gets more complicated by the $40 box building rules which seem to say the boxes have to output analog VBI. This is supposedly where the sap and TVGOS info (and possibly a lot more stuff) is located.
Well, all stations are required to pass old the EIA-608 closed captioning data in the MPEG-2 user picture data to support VBI closed captioning for NTSC televisions connected to ATSC receivers. This data is tagged NTSC_CC_FIELD_1. The data that you're talking about is tagged NTSC_CC_FIELD_2 since it's transmitted in the other field in NTSC.

I have seen data tagged with this but it's mostly been things like the name of the program you're watching. When I looked at this a couple of years ago, the WB station (when it was WB) was also passing some WebTV data in it. It looked like some commercials were passing their web site addresses and WebTV would pick up on these things. I don't recall seeing any other data.

I know there are a lot of dvd recorders that use the TVGOS program guides. They will be left in the dust also if someone can't figure out how to get the guide to them.
The EIA-608 closed captioning is required by FCC regulation. I wouldn't count on any other data being passed, especially things that have been replaced by PSIP.

I still don't know if koin has already started sending the TVGOS. I wonder if new dvd recorders with digital tuners are getting their guides from analog or from digital.
I can take dump some NTSC_CC_FIELD_2 data on some stations tonight and tell you if there's anything in there that looks interesting.

> 80 column lines went out with IBM punch cards.

Like it or not, 80 column lines are still a common
defacto standard.

----

>> in boxes with sliders on the side and bottom

> Tell me how can I tell who wrote the ">>" text above

Huh? You seriously can't figure this out?

"?sliders"
to find the previous copy of the string "sliders"
followed by 'N' a couple times to find the original.
Your browser may vary.

Or just scroll up.

> using your antiquated Usenet quoting scheme?

Never confuse change with progress.

----

Perhaps you can tell me how to tell (without going
blind) which text is a quote and which text is new,
when the only difference is a less than one character
indent? Using a larger font size doesn't help, it
appears to be a fixed number of pixels. It looks
like 6 or 7 pixels in xmag.

Example:

http://b.imagehost.org/0091/indent_crop.png

> 80 column lines went out with IBM punch cards.

Like it or not, 80 column lines are still a common
defacto standard.

----

>> in boxes with sliders on the side and bottom

> Tell me how can I tell who wrote the ">>" text above

Huh? You seriously can't figure this out?

"?sliders"
to find the previous copy of the string "sliders"
followed by 'N' a couple times to find the original.
Your browser may vary.

Or just scroll up.

> using your antiquated Usenet quoting scheme?

Never confuse change with progress.

----

Perhaps you can tell me how to tell (without going
blind) which text is a quote and which text is new,
when the only difference is a less than one character
indent? Using a larger font size doesn't help, it
appears to be a fixed number of pixels. It looks
like 6 or 7 pixels in xmag.

Example:

http://b.imagehost.org/0091/indent_crop.pngWhat are you viewing this forum on? With a mainstream browser quotes done using the forum quote tags show up as fully indented, boxed off quotes..... They are labeled with the quoted person's name and even include a link button to take you to the original post if you so desire... Quite the opposite of brain dead actually :D


ron

> 80 column lines went out with IBM punch cards.
Like it or not, 80 column lines are still a common
defacto standard.
Maybe on your dot matrix printer but not on the Internet.

Huh? You seriously can't figure this out?
No I cannot. There is no name.

> using your antiquated Usenet quoting scheme?

Never confuse change with progress.
Look, absolutely none of the thousand other people who post at the AVS Forum use Usenet style quotes. If you prefer to pretend you're posting on a newsgroup and prevent people from reading your posts, then continue to fight progress.

Perhaps you can tell me how to tell (without going
blind) which text is a quote and which text is new,
when the only difference is a less than one character
indent?
The quoted text has the word "Qoute:", then the quoted text has a big box around it with the phrase "Originally Posted by" with the author's name in boldface.

Using a larger font size doesn't help, it
appears to be a fixed number of pixels. It looks
like 6 or 7 pixels in xmag.

Example:

http://b.imagehost.org/0091/indent_crop.png
This looks absolutely nothing like what everyone else sees on the AVS Forum. Are you telling us that your browser doesn't display a box with the quoted text in it?

nm, it was a waste of my time...

...

Is anyone noticing a weaker signal from channel 12 Fox? I haven't been able to pick them up for the last two days (getting 1 out of 5 bars on my signal meter). I've tried three different computer based tuners (in two different computers) and two different antennas. I've always had a strong signal from them, but not now. Anybody else having this problem?
Thanks

Is anyone noticing a weaker signal from channel 12 Fox?
No change of signal quality at my location (90%).

I still don't know if koin has already started sending the TVGOS. I wonder if new dvd recorders with digital tuners are getting their guides from analog or from digital.

How often does this data get sent out? The only ASCII data I've seen in the CC2 data so far is the show title i.e. "The Evening News", the station ID and network. KOIN, KATU and KRCW send these. KPTV sands out "KPTV" and "FOX" but nothing else. KPDX sends a bunch of odd garbage depending on what's being broadcast which is odd because I can see the line 21 data flashing at the top of the screen. Obviously this data isn't going into the MPEG-2 packets. KGW hasn't sent any CC2 data so far.

So far there's no consistency in what stations are sending. I'll wait until prime time and see if anything more interesting shows up.

Also my notes say that the second field of line 21 is used for XDS data (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Data_Services) so if your TVGOS data is someplace else, I don't know where that would be.

Konrad2> Huh? You seriously can't figure this out?
scowl> No I cannot.

That's strange, you used to be a bright guy.

scowl> Are you telling us that your browser doesn't
scowl> display a box with the quoted text in it?

No, it doesn't draw a box around the quote.
It doesn't change fonts.
It doesn't change font size.

Yeah it says "quote" at the beginning, but you have
to look for the itsy bitsy indent to end to see
where the quote ends and the new text begins.

I guess the small example isn't sufficient, so here
is a full size example. This is 1187x996, so
pda/cellphone viewers beware. At least it is less
than 46 KB.

Note that there is a horz scroll bar even though this
window is wider than the recommended 1024x768.

http://b.imagehost.org/0091/indent_2.png

dantenatas> Is anyone noticing a weaker signal from channel 12 Fox?

The analog channel 12 looks fine. (no numbers available, sorry)

The digital version (channel 30) has 100% signal strength and
90% signal quality here this evening 2008-02-12.

Konrad2> Huh? You seriously can't figure this out?
scowl> No I cannot.

That's strange, you used to be a bright guy.
Hey, Konrad, I'm trying to help you figure out why you're having trouble reading this forum. Could you save your insults until after I've solved your problem?

No, it doesn't draw a box around the quote.
It doesn't change fonts.
It doesn't change font size.
What is this browser? I haven't seen one that sparse since I used the Mosaic browser almost twenty years ago.

Your solution is very simple: get a free browser that knows how to draw a box and has more than one font. You'll enjoy the Internet much more.

Is anyone noticing a weaker signal from channel 12 Fox?

I lost digital signal for both KPTV and KPDX sometime early yesterday. I'm in NE PDX and usually get a very strong signal on both my VBox Cat's Eye tuners. All other stations are coming in strong.

I sent an inquiry to KPTV via their website but haven't received a response.

Konrad2> That's strange, you used to be a bright guy.

scowl> Could you save your insults

Saying someone is bright is now considered an insult?

scowl> What is this browser? I haven't seen one that sparse
scowl> since I used the Mosaic browser almost twenty years ago.

Mosaic's initial release was in 1993.

http://links.twibright.com/

The download is less than 1 MB (not counting libraries you
probably already have (png, jpeg, tiff, ...))

I've tried something like a dozen or two dozen browsers and
for most things I like links. It is smaller and faster
(less slow) than most, less buggy than most, allows a very
wide range of font sizes, allows changing image sizes,
it even lets you tweak gamma.

It doesn't do everything, but no browser does, even the
super-bloat-fests like Mozilla.

Web sites aren't supposed to target specific browsers or
specific window sizes. That's not the way the web is
supposed to work, it's a fundamentally wrong approach.

CavemanMike> I lost digital signal for both KPTV and
CavemanMike> KPDX sometime early yesterday.

I just ran a couple of short tests on KPDX-48. Signal
strength and quality numbers are fine, but the first test
had a boatload of packets fail forward error correction
and the packet sequence count had a lot of gaps. The
second test was fine.

This is unusual. It breaks KPDX-48's perfect record of
zero errors since they replaced that elbow in August.

KPTV-30 is still fine here.

What an interesting segue from OTA viewing of HDTV...

Playful bantering aside, the commentary about quoting won't help too many people tune in HD broadcasts OTA.

I get a daily digest of messages from this and several other subscribed threads. These come thru as plain text in my Outlook email, rather than rich-text. Perhaps a setting here on the forum preferences could change that, but for now, text is OKfor me. Not a big deal, but if I find something of interest I do use Interent Explorer to come over to the forum to read in more detail, and reply as appropriate.

There is also the ability to read the forums while out and about using your cell-phone or other portable devices. The rendering capability of these phones ranges from text only to a tiny window to the full HTML experience with scrollbars left, right, up, and down.

Then there are the RSS feeds and corresponding readers and syndicators. The experience there also ranges from text only to something resembling the original rendering of the page.

So...your mileage may vary. If you want to comment or quote my post, I'll welcome any random lettrs, words, or pictures. If the latter, I may not even see the response, except maybe a placeholder. :)

When reading this post, you will see that almost the entire message has been quoted with the smiley face...

>>> Who wrote this?

>>> Who wrote this?
See above :)

Konrad2> That's strange, you used to be a bright guy.

scowl> Could you save your insults

Saying someone is bright is now considered an insult?
Come on, you know exactly what you meant by saying I "used" to be a bright guy.

Mosaic's initial release was in 1993.

http://links.twibright.com/
Gosh it was only fifteen years ago. I remember it as if it were only twenty years ago. :)

I've tried something like a dozen or two dozen browsers and
for most things I like links. It is smaller and faster
(less slow) than most, less buggy than most, allows a very
wide range of font sizes, allows changing image sizes,
it even lets you tweak gamma.
Well, links sure has problems. It can't change fonts. It can't even draw tables with proper borders or background colors! And it can't display the AVS Forum correctly. It's a joke!

For fun I just took a look at the AVS Forum with Netscape Communicator 4.76 from 2000. It looked pretty good. It doesn't display table borders so there aren't any boxes around the quoted text, but it does display the quoted text italicized and with a very noticeable indent. It was very readable and usable.

Your browser doesn't even work as well as Netscape did eight years ago.

Web sites aren't supposed to target specific browsers or
specific window sizes. That's not the way the web is
supposed to work, it's a fundamentally wrong approach.
First of all, you're the one advocating 80 column text that is impossible to reformat so you don't understand the problem of window sizes.

HTML is an evolving standard. Web sites like this one send modern compliant HTML. For these sites to look correct, you must use a browser, any browser, that displays modern HTML correctly. If you don't, you get the botched mess you've shown us. If you refuse to use a modern browser, you're going to have great difficulty following anything on any PHP based forum on the Internet.

Konrad2> That's strange, you used to be a bright guy.

scowl> Could you save your insults

Konrad2> Saying someone is bright is now considered an insult?

scowl> Come on, you know exactly what you meant by saying I "used" to
scowl> be a bright guy.

-sigh-

Yes, I know what I meant, but apparently you don't, so here is an
expanded version.

In the past, I have gotten the impression that you are a bright guy.
You can dive into software and work on progressive/interlace problems,
look into the guts of the ATSC data stream and pull out useful
information, modify antennas, etc. The average Joe can't do that.

And yet you say that you can not figure out who wrote some quoted
text unless their forum-name is right there next to it. Most,
perhaps all web browsers have a function that searches for a text
string. Using the search-for-text function easily finds the original
posting. Even without that, it is easy to scroll up and find the
original posting.

Sure it is easier if the name is right there, but it isn't exactly
difficult without it. Especially for someone who can do the sort
of things mentioned above.

So reworded, it might read

It's strange that you cannot do such a simple thing when you
have done far more difficult things in the past.

Yes you can read it as a kidding-around kind of insult, but
with a genuine compliment attached.

If you really thought I intended an actual insult, I'm sorry.

Now, about those IBM punch card/BBS/dot matrix/usenet comments...

---------

scowl> Well, links sure has problems.

Yes it does. All browsers have tons of problems. :-(

scowl> Your browser doesn't even work as well as Netscape
scowl> did eight years ago.

Some things it does better, some things it does worse.

scowl> First of all, you're the one advocating 80 column text

I just said that 80 columns was a defacto standard. I never
said that everything always uses 80 columns, or that everything
should use 80 columns.

scowl> that is impossible to reformat

If you mean using the code tag, I only do that when I have to.

scowl> so you don't understand the problem of window sizes.

Sure I do. It is avsforum that doesn't understand.

scowl> Web sites like this one send modern compliant HTML.

Really?

HTML warning: line 458, undefined character entity 'announcementid'
HTML warning: line 530, undefined character entity 'KW'
HTML warning: line 597, undefined character entity 'java'
HTML warning: line 597, undefined character entity 'security'
HTML warning: line 597, undefined character entity 'invisible'
HTML warning: line 648, <strong> is not allowed to contain <h1>. -- closing <strong>
HTML warning: line 651, unexpected closing tag: </strong>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 693, undefined character entity 'folderid'
HTML warning: line 696, undefined character entity 'folderid'
HTML warning: line 972, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 979, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 1009, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 1234, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 1241, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 1271, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 1419, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 1426, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 1456, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 1604, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 1611, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 1641, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 1789, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 1796, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 1826, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 1982, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 1989, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 2019, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 2179, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 2186, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 2216, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 2382, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 2389, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 2419, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 2566, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 2573, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 2603, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 2779, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 2786, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 2816, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 2972, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 2979, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 3009, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 3178, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 3185, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 3215, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 3369, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 3376, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 3406, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 3577, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 3584, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 3614, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 3753, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 3760, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 3790, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 3956, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 3963, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 3993, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 4429, input camp outside <form>
HTML warning: line 4887, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 4900, <font> is not allowed to contain <tr>. -- closing <font>
HTML warning: line 4901, <td> or <th> outside <table>
HTML warning: line 4906, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </form>
HTML warning: line 4932, FORM lacks a Submit button
HTML warning: line 4932, (added a submit button internally)
HTML warning: line 4932, unexpected closing tag: </form>. -- expected </div>
HTML warning: line 4964, - forcing close of open tag: <div>
HTML warning: line 4964, - forcing close of open tag: <form>

And yet you say that you can not figure out who wrote some quoted
text unless their forum-name is right there next to it. Most,
perhaps all web browsers have a function that searches for a text
string. Using the search-for-text function easily finds the original
posting. Even without that, it is easy to scroll up and find the
original posting.
Why should I have to cut and paste to search for strings when the quote tags allow me to use my eyes to determine immediately who wrote the quote as well and take me to the original post in one click if I want?

Sure it is easier if the name is right there, but it isn't exactly
difficult without it. Especially for someone who can do the sort
of things mentioned above.
Why should I waste my time searching for strings when I don't have to? Bright people use the tools that are available, not shoehorn inadequate unrelated tools.

The quote tags work great. That's why they're there. You're the only one who doesn't use them. What's your problem?

scowl> Well, links sure has problems.

Yes it does. All browsers have tons of problems. :-(
Mine don't. They work fine. Even Netscape worked fine.

scowl> Your browser doesn't even work as well as Netscape
scowl> did eight years ago.

Some things it does better, some things it does worse.
Well as you said it's screwing up the quoting and making the AVS Forum pretty difficult for you to read.

scowl> First of all, you're the one advocating 80 column text

I just said that 80 columns was a defacto standard. I never
said that everything always uses 80 columns, or that everything
should use 80 columns.
But you are using 80 column text here as if we all should be using 80 column text. Our 20th century browsers cannot reformat your "carriage returned" text so that makes your posts difficult to read. Since you're doing this apparently to make some kind of point, it only makes you look like an jackass. Why are you making your posts hard for us to read for no reason?

scowl> so you don't understand the problem of window sizes.

Sure I do. It is avsforum that doesn't understand.
No you don't. The AVS Forum does not, nor does any other PHP forum, use 80 column lines. That's so text will be readable on any reasonable window size.

scowl> Web sites like this one send modern compliant HTML.

Really?

HTML warning: line 458, undefined character entity 'announcementid'
HTML warning: line 530, undefined character entity 'KW'
HTML warning: line 597, undefined character entity 'java'
HTML warning: line 597, undefined character entity 'security'
HTML warning: line 597, undefined character entity 'invisible'
HTML warning: line 648, <strong> is not allowed to contain <h1>. -- closing <strong>
HTML warning: line 651, unexpected closing tag: </strong>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 693, undefined character entity 'folderid'
HTML warning: line 696, undefined character entity 'folderid'
HTML warning: line 972, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 979, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 1009, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 1234, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 1241, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 1271, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 1419, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 1426, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 1456, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 1604, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 1611, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 1641, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 1789, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 1796, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 1826, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 1982, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 1989, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 2019, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 2179, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 2186, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 2216, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 2382, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 2389, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 2419, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 2566, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 2573, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 2603, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 2779, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 2786, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 2816, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 2972, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 2979, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 3009, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 3178, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 3185, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 3215, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 3369, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 3376, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 3406, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 3577, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 3584, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 3614, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 3753, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 3760, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 3790, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 3956, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 3963, 'id' and 'name' attribute of <a> tag differ
HTML warning: line 3993, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </td>
HTML warning: line 4429, input camp outside <form>
HTML warning: line 4887, Anchor names must be unique within the document
HTML warning: line 4900, <font> is not allowed to contain <tr>. -- closing <font>
HTML warning: line 4901, <td> or <th> outside <table>
HTML warning: line 4906, unexpected closing tag: </font>. -- expected </form>
HTML warning: line 4932, FORM lacks a Submit button
HTML warning: line 4932, (added a submit button internally)
HTML warning: line 4932, unexpected closing tag: </form>. -- expected </div>
HTML warning: line 4964, - forcing close of open tag: <div>
HTML warning: line 4964, - forcing close of open tag: <form>
In the computer world there's a major difference between a "warning" and an "error". These are "warnings". Warnings do not mean noncompliance.

Would you guys take this off-line please, and leave this thread to discuss Portland, Oregon OTA. Thanks.

>>>Would you guys take this off-line please, and leave this thread to discuss Portland, Oregon OTA. Thanks.


I can't tell who wrote this, can anyone help? Thanks

Yes, please take this elsewhere.

Is anyone noticing a weaker signal from channel 12 Fox? I haven't been able to pick them up for the last two days (getting 1 out of 5 bars on my signal meter). I've tried three different computer based tuners (in two different computers) and two different antennas. I've always had a strong signal from them, but not now. Anybody else having this problem?
Thanks
I have also lost channel 12 over the last few days and it was one of my strongest stations. I called the channel and was told they were having technical troubles and I then left a voice mail with the tech that is working on it. so hopefully it will be resolved.

Is anyone noticing a weaker signal from channel 12 Fox? I haven't been able to pick them up for the last two days (getting 1 out of 5 bars on my signal meter). I've tried three different computer based tuners (in two different computers) and two different antennas. I've always had a strong signal from them, but not now. Anybody else having this problem?
Thanks

I'm having this issue and it's driving me crazy! My vista media center won't pick up KPTV OTA HD anymore!

How often does this data get sent out? The only ASCII data I've seen in the CC2 data so far is the show title i.e. "The Evening News", the station ID and network. KOIN, KATU and KRCW send these. KPTV sands out "KPTV" and "FOX" but nothing else. KPDX sends a bunch of odd garbage depending on what's being broadcast which is odd because I can see the line 21 data flashing at the top of the screen. Obviously this data isn't going into the MPEG-2 packets. KGW hasn't sent any CC2 data so far.

So far there's no consistency in what stations are sending. I'll wait until prime time and see if anything more interesting shows up.

Also my notes say that the second field of line 21 is used for XDS data (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Data_Services) so if your TVGOS data is someplace else, I don't know where that would be.

Some clarifications:

First, NTSC TVGOS data is not sent as part of the Line 21 Closed Captioning data stream. KOIN sends analog TVGOS data on Line 17 as a hybred of slow and fast data bursts. KOIN will not be providing the ATSC TVGOS because the station sale was pending when the contract had to be signed and no new agreements could be signed.

Now, Line 21 itself:

Line 21 Field 1 includes CC1, CC2, Text1 and Text2 data, if they are all used. CC1 is used for English captions. CC2 is commonly used for WebTV (yes, even now) URL tags. Text1 and Text2 are generally unused.

Line 21 Field 2 contains CC3, CC4, Text3, Text4 and XDS data. Again, if any of these data streams are sent. CC3 is commonly used for Spanish captions. CC4, Text3 and Text4 are generally unused. XDS data, when sent, includes the ATSC required TSID so that ATSC PSIP guide data will map to the analog channel as well as the digital. XDS can include program title and timing information, but its use by TVs is rare and equipment to generate it is expensive. KOIN passes through what information the program provider supplies.

I have also lost channel 12 over the last few days and it was one of my strongest stations. I called the channel and was told they were having technical troubles and I then left a voice mail with the tech that is working on it. so hopefully it will be resolved.

What are you using for a tuner?

First, NTSC TVGOS data is not sent as part of the Line 21 Closed Captioning data stream. KOIN sends analog TVGOS data on Line 17 as a hybred of slow and fast data bursts.

Is there any way for ATSC to pass Line 17 data? All I could find was the EIA-708 standard which shows how to pass the line 21 data (both fields) so the ATSC tuner can display it on non-HDTV displays. I've been using this data to display closed captioning because the new DTVCC captions are really fancy and are harder to implement.

Are Lines 18-20 used for anything?

What are you using for a tuner?
I am using AVerTV Combo PCI-E x 1 TV tuner on my Vista ultimate build. It has worked without any issues for over 6 months. I get all other OTA stations without issue. I called channel 12 again today and the receptionist said they are aware of the problem ( I did not mention it was a media center computer) I said it had been 5 days and she said she new, and that she could not give me a estimate. I would be interested to know if a ATSC tuner on a regular HD tv would also have a issue. I might have to hook one to my antenna and see

I just noticed that i have also lost KPDX 49


KPDX-DT will change to UHF channel 30 and relocate to the KPTV site at the end of the DTV transition taking over the current DTV transmission facilities of sister station KPTV-DT.

I wonder if this has something to do with it

I would be interested to know if a ATSC tuner on a regular HD tv would also have a issue. I might have to hook one to my antenna and see

I have an old 1st gen ATSC Zenith outboard tuner and 12 comes in fine. Do you map it from 30-1?

Lee: If KOIN isn't going to pass the ATSC TVGOS do you know who will provide it in our market come 2/09?

I am using AVerTV Combo PCI-E x 1 TV tuner on my Vista ultimate build. It has worked without any issues for over 6 months. I get all other OTA stations without issue. I called channel 12 again today and the receptionist said they are aware of the problem ( I did not mention it was a media center computer) I said it had been 5 days and she said she new, and that she could not give me a estimate. I would be interested to know if a ATSC tuner on a regular HD tv would also have a issue. I might have to hook one to my antenna and see

I just noticed that i have also lost KPDX 49


KPDX-DT will change to UHF channel 30 and relocate to the KPTV site at the end of the DTV transition taking over the current DTV transmission facilities of sister station KPTV-DT.

I wonder if this has something to do with it

I have a similar setup using TREK indoor HDTV antenna, what antenna do you use with you media center??

When I hooked my antenna straight to my TV I can get KPTV HD OTA... wonder if I need to get a bigger antenna..

Like everyone else, I'm also unable to tune kpdx-dt with my mediacenter. I'm located in the garden home area and lost the signal about 5 days ago. I get a 100% signal on all the other local channels.

I have been using a cheapy antenna, because it has been working perfectly.

For the people that are still able to tune this channel in using mediacenter, what part of town are you located in and what antenna are you using?

Thanks

Is there any way for ATSC to pass Line 17 data? All I could find was the EIA-708 standard which shows how to pass the line 21 data (both fields) so the ATSC tuner can display it on non-HDTV displays. I've been using this data to display closed captioning because the new DTVCC captions are really fancy and are harder to implement.

Are Lines 18-20 used for anything?

What is NTSC VBI Data is handled entirely different in an ATSC MPEG stream. Such as: 608 captioning data is encapsulated as a parallel data stream within the MPEG stream. This works because captions is a well defined, and required, component. While it would be possible to do this with other data streams the system as it sits does not routinely do this and how individual receiver would react is a big unknown.

What is NTSC VBI Data is handled entirely different in an ATSC MPEG stream. Such as: 608 captioning data is encapsulated as a parallel data stream within the MPEG stream.
I wouldn't say it's a parallel stream. The data is embedded in the "Picture User Data" of the video MPEG packets so the caption data is completely tied to the video that's being displayed. This is a pain because MPEG frames aren't sent in the order they're displayed so you have to sort the caption data with the PTS's of the packets they came with, otherwise the captions will be scrambled text.

Somewhere I read that the caption data should only be sent with I frames which do arrive in display order, so I thought the caption data would arrive in order too. Nope, no one does that so I had to write code to save them and display the captions at the right time.

Back to TVGOS. It doesn't look like there's any way for ATSC to send line 17 data so it looks like it will end with analog television.

I have a similar setup using TREK indoor HDTV antenna, what antenna do you use with you media center??

When I hooked my antenna straight to my TV I can get KPTV HD OTA... wonder if I need to get a bigger antenna..
It is a TREK roof mounted antenna not sure of model number but has worked great up until now

I just hooked up my small HDTV from my fifth wheel to the roof antenna my media center is connected to and I get channel 12.1 and 49.1, but its not a great signal, breaks up. So it looks like it is a media center or aver tuner issue ( they must require a better signal than the tv tuner), I get nothing when connected to my media center computer. Just a week ago it was a excellent signal with no problems. I think they have been making changes and the broadcast signal is weaker. hope it improves. I was so close to dumping comcast. always something

I would be interested to know if a ATSC tuner on a regular HD tv would also have a issue. I might have to hook one to my antenna and see



I hooked up my Samsung HDTV with built in tuner to the same antenna as my Media Center, and it gets KPTV just fine. I think I will load the drivers/software that came with my USB HD Tuner on my XP laptop and see if I can get KPTV that way (basically bypassing Media Center).
Also, I have been in email contact with an engineer at KPTV that is looking into the problem.

Like everyone else, I'm also unable to tune kpdx-dt with my mediacenter. I'm located in the garden home area and lost the signal about 5 days ago. I get a 100% signal on all the other local channels.

I have been using a cheapy antenna, because it has been working perfectly.

For the people that are still able to tune this channel in using mediacenter, what part of town are you located in and what antenna are you using?

Thanks
Quick answer is SE Portland and a Silver Sensor indoor antenna.

Longer version,...
I have the Silver Sensor and all coax is CommScope 5781 quad shield RG-6 and Digicon terminators that I assembled myself. The Silver Sensor is connected to a Signal Vision SV-2G splitter with one leg connected directly to a Hauppauge HVR-1800 in Vista Ultimate, the other leg goes to a remote controlled Radio Shack A/B switch with the output connected to a LG LST-3100a stand alone tuner.

I am still able to receive all the stations on my LST-3100a as well as through the HVR-1800 using either Vista Media Center or the Hauppauge included WinTV app.

Earl

I wanted to add that I talked to a buddy in Hillsboro that has a MyHD card in XP Media Center and he's not having any issues either. KPTV is coming in @ 100% and KPDX is @ 81 - 87% which is normal for him.

I tried my Pinnacle HD Pro Stick (usb) on my Windows XP Home laptop, with the software that came with it, and was able to get 80% signal strength for KPTV. I literally just took the usb cable that is connected to my Vista Media Center box (that gets one bar for KPTV), moved it to my laptop and got 80% signal in the Pinnacle software. Next, I decided to load the Pinnacle software onto my Vista box and I got an 80% signal on it (using the Pinnacle software). The problem is definitely tied to Vista Media Center for me. I'm not sure what could have gone wrong, I don't have automatic updates turned on, and I hadn't updated anything prior to the channel failing (I've since updated Windows, but it didn't fix the problem). Here is a list of all of the things that I've tried.

Wouldn't get KPTV in Media Center:
3 Different HD tuners (ATI HD Wonder, Pinnacle HD Pro Stick, Hauppauge WinTV HVR-1600) on two different Vista Media center computers with two different antennas (Channel Master 4bay, ATI Silver Sensor knockoff).

Gets KPTV:
Samsung tv with built in tuner and Pinnacle HD Pro Stick with its own software on laptop and Vista machine (with both antennas).

I'm not sure what to do next, I really don't want to use the sub par Pinnacle software just to watch KPTV.

I too am now having problems with my Fox signal KPTV 12-1 on my Vista Media Center PC. I have been using this home built VMC PC for ~ 1 year without any issues. About a week or so ago I started to get warnings that American Idol did not record because there was no signal but I blew it off until today. The Datona 500 would not record on KPTV 12-1 and I have removed and reinstalled both of my HD Tuners (Avermedia PCIe and a WINTV-HVR 950 USB2). Tried 2 different antennas on 2 different HDTV's with the same results-TV's tune the signal fine but the VMC box fails to get KPTV 12-1.

I am now going to go through the UPDATES and will try to RESTORE my Vista Media Center PC to a few weeks back and see if I can get any better results.

The problem is related to the guide information. I had everything working fine and I'm set-up to manually update the program guide in Vista media center. I hadn't updated the guide in a while so it showed "No program data". I went in and manually downloaded the latest guide info and now neither 12 or 49 are coming in.
I hope once the current guide info runs out it goes back to the way it was...

Update 3-9-2008 It looks like the guide data for NBC is also wrong, so I updated what I do right now to make everything work. page 217 on this forum has a link to a much better description about this problem. The link is http://thenears.wordpress.com/2006/0...issues-in-mce/
Thank you to the poster for pointing this out!


To temporarily fix this problem, I did the following

edit or create the following file:
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs\atscprefs.xml

Add or update it to look like this:
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<channels>
<channel callsign="KPTV" userAssignedName="KPTV" version="0" physical="30" major="12" />
<channel callsign="KGW" userAssignedName="kgw " version="0" physical="46" major="8" />
<channel callsign="KPDX" userAssignedName="KPDX" version="0" physical="48" major="49" />
<channel callsign="DELETEME" userAssignedName="DELETEME" version="0" physical="8" major="22" />
</channels>

After you have done this, open up VMC and go to Settings | TV | Guide | Add Missing Channel. Click on the X to delete the DeleteME-DT channel, then click on done. The bogus channel was only added so we didn't have to create one in the interface. Making any changes to digital channels forces VMC to update its db files with the new information. The Xml files are only configuration files so changing them doesn’t do anything.

You should now be able to view NBC,KPTV and FOX.

It would sure be nice if zapit would fix this problem.

jbworks,

My issues with losing FOX were intermittent at first a week or so ago but ended up being constant today. I have guide updates on auto. My attempt to RESTORE to an earlier date did nothing to solve this issue

You are awesome. I did what you had done and now I have FOX and KPDX back. I hope this continues to work. Would we have gotten 12.1 and 49.1 back if we had just put in a bogus channel? Did we have to go through the entire renaming step?

jkm2730:

I don’t believe adding a bogus digital channel would have done anything, because they changed the frequency that they are broadcasting on. I’m not very familiar with the terminology of tv signals, so my verbiage may be wrong. I figured it out by using the HDHomerun setup utility to scan the signal and then compared the results to what was listed in the atscchannels.xml file.

My best guess about the bogus channel is MCE has some sort of cached info stored containing the atscchannels.xml info. After adding a new dtv channel, I'm guessing that it caused MCE to reload the file. I really have no clue, so I'm probably wrong.

I'm just glad it works because my wife wasn't so happy about missing American Idol last week. btw.. you can remove the newly added digital channel after you are able to tune in 12 and 49. It was only added to make mce update itself.

Ok I dug around a bit and found out that kptv has changed its tuning frequency. To resolve my problem, I did the following

opened up:
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs\atscchannels.xml

Changed:
<channel callsign="KPDX" version="0" physical="12" major="12" />
<channel callsign="KPDX" version="0" physical="30" major="49" />

To:
<channel callsign="KPTV" version="0" physical="30" major="12" />
<channel callsign="KPDX" version="0" physical="48" major="49" />

Now the odd part that I still don’t understand. After rebooting, I was still unable to view either of the channels, so I went into my guide settings and added a new DTV channel. Adding 30-3 as the digital channel and 3 as the assigned frequency, I then named it, and Clicked on Done, then went into my guide and browsed to the new added channel. It bombed out about not having a signal, but as soon as I did this I was able to tune in 12 and 49 again. I have 4 mediacenters in my house(3 vista machines and one MCE05) all using different ATSC tuners(ATI HDTVWonder,A180,HDHomerun,Vbox 164e) and this worked on all of them.

Obviously there is something that I don’t understand, so if anyone can explain why it didn't work until I tried tuning a bogus channel, I would appreciate it.
Thank You , Thank You, Thank You. This worked perfectly

Yes, worked for me on this end, too. I was going nuts - evening going on eBay to find a new tuner (I never trusted my HDTV Wonder, but after I disabled it and I STILL couldn't record Fox with my reliable Cat's Eye, well...

-Dan

Thanks for the info, worked for me as well. By the way, how did you find out what KPTV changed its tuning frequency to?

Ok I dug around a bit and found out that kptv has changed its tuning frequency. To resolve my problem, I did the following:


Bravo!

Ok I dug around a bit and found out that kptv has changed its tuning frequency. To resolve my problem, I did the following

opened up:
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs\atscchannels.xml

Changed:
<channel callsign="KPDX" version="0" physical="12" major="12" />
<channel callsign="KPDX" version="0" physical="30" major="49" />

To:
<channel callsign="KPTV" version="0" physical="30" major="12" />
<channel callsign="KPDX" version="0" physical="48" major="49" />

Now the odd part that I still don’t understand. After rebooting, I was still unable to view either of the channels, so I went into my guide settings and added a new DTV channel. Adding 30-3 as the digital channel and 3 as the assigned frequency, I then named it, and Clicked on Done, then went into my guide and browsed to the new added channel. It bombed out about not having a signal, but as soon as I did this I was able to tune in 12 and 49 again. I have 4 mediacenters in my house(3 vista machines and one MCE05) all using different ATSC tuners(ATI HDTVWonder,A180,HDHomerun,Vbox 164e) and this worked on all of them.

Obviously there is something that I don’t understand, so if anyone can explain why it didn't work until I tried tuning a bogus channel, I would appreciate it.

I suspect the change was more a screw up by someone in the guide/local information that we download for Windows media center than a change at KPTV/KPDX.
My reasoning for that theory is because the "fix" is to actually change the physical channel in the xml file to the ATSC channel number that KPTV/KPDX have always used to broadcast their digital signals, that and the problem only seemed to effect reception though media center.
Plus I didn't have an issue until I downloaded the latest guide/local information.

Which ever the case, good call!! :)

Earl

Of course KPTV-DT has always been broadcasting on channel 30. The odd question is what tricked tuners into suddenly looking at channel 12 for it. Where do these applications get their guide data?

Being a Linux person, of course I have no clue. It's always been channel 30 on my system. :)

The guide fix worked for me as well. I wonder if it will screw up again the next time the guide downloads.

Did you send your "fix" to the staff and people of KPTV? Maybe it will help them solve the problem that they have been working on for the last few weeks.

The guide fix worked for me as well. I wonder if it will screw up again the next time the guide downloads.
My guide just updated itself, and now the channels, once again, don't work.

Of course KPTV-DT has always been broadcasting on channel 30. The odd question is what tricked tuners into suddenly looking at channel 12 for it. Where do these applications get their guide data?

Being a Linux person, of course I have no clue. It's always been channel 30 on my system. :)
Looking at the other file located with the xml file that required editing it indicates the info is supplied by Zap2it.
Given the comment from dantenatas about not working again after a guide update, I'd say Zap2it still has a problem.

If I had to venture a guess, it appears the guide info comes in two parts, one being what channels are available given your zip code and source, the second is the programming data based on that channel info.

In this case it appears someone at Zap2it entered the wrong station info during an update so the tuner looks to the wrong station even though the programming data may be correct.



Looking at the Zap2it programming page, they only seem to list the remapped number(12.1, 2.1, etc) and not the actual broadcast channels so their error may be hard to expose.

Did you send your "fix" to the staff and people of KPTV? Maybe it will help them solve the problem that they have been working on for the last few weeks.
I did send an email along with a link to this forum.

My guide just updated itself, and now the channels, once again, don't work.
Did you check the atscchannels.xml file to see if it had changed back to the incorrect listing for KPTV and KPDX?

Mine did the same thing. It updated the file with the wrong info. I am going to change it back and go into manual download mode so I can get control of this issue til a fix is found.

I sent an e-mail to Zap2it using their feedback e-mail address, it was the only contact information I found, describing the problem and the fix. I'll post back when I get a reply.

Update:A temporary fix that should continue to work after the guide is updated would be to set the attributes on C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs\atscchannels.xml to read only. I just did this and then updated my guide data and all is still well.

Since the channels are all the same in Portland and other people in Portland have stated everything is still working for them, has anyone tried using a different portland zip code?

I wouldn't say it's a parallel stream. The data is embedded in the "Picture User Data" of the video MPEG packets so the caption data is completely tied to the video that's being displayed. This is a pain because MPEG frames aren't sent in the order they're displayed so you have to sort the caption data with the PTS's of the packets they came with, otherwise the captions will be scrambled text.

Somewhere I read that the caption data should only be sent with I frames which do arrive in display order, so I thought the caption data would arrive in order too. Nope, no one does that so I had to write code to save them and display the captions at the right time.
I was trying to keep it simple in explaining that caption data does not ride as part of the video, but as a separate component within the MPEG stream.

Back to TVGOS. It doesn't look like there's any way for ATSC to send line 17 data so it looks like it will end with analog television.
There is an ATSC version of TVGOS coming and it will be carried by many CBS stations as part of a national agreement. KOIN just could not participate at the time stations were being signed up.

Update:A temporary fix that should continue to work after the guide is updated would be to set the attributes on C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs\atscchannels.xml to read only. I just did this and then updated my guide data and all is still well.

Since the channels are all the same in Portland and other people in Portland have stated everything is still working for them, has anyone tried using a different portland zip code?
I also lost 12 and 49 with the guide update. I tried changing the zip code as you suggested, from my corbett 97019 to my work 97230. good try but no go. so i guess i will try your other suggestion with the read only attributes, for now.

I just wanted to follow up and say that setting the file to read only did not prevent MCE from not being able to tun the channels after the guide was updated. About 2 hours after my guide was updated, I was no longer able to tune in either 12 or 49 again even though my atscchannels.xml file was still correct.

I have no idea why, but going in and adding any bogus dtv channel to the guide allows me to tune in the channels again.

Does anyone have any idea what else is being updated when you do this? The only thing that I can see is a atscprefs.xml file is created or updated.

MCE gets its channel information from the FCC and the listings from zap2it. I the past few months several cities around the country have reported problems with the frequency data from the FCC. Its like the FCC is jumping the gun and changing the channels before the 2009 cutoff. This of course screws up MCE. Since you are seeing no signal strength, its almost a sure bet that the FCC database has your station on the wrong channel.

This was posted in another thread and I found it a good reference to how to fix the problem.

http://thenears.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/troubleshooting-atsc-issues-in-mce/

If, however, you would have said that you had all green bars but you still couldnt receive the station, that would be an indication that the station had messed with the PSIP data and there's really nothing you can do except contact the station and hope for the best.

-dickm

MCE gets its channel information from the FCC and the listings from zap2it. I the past few months several cities around the country have reported problems with the frequency data from the FCC. Its like the FCC is jumping the gun and changing the channels before the 2009 cutoff. This of course screws up MCE. Since you are seeing no signal strength, its almost a sure bet that the FCC database has your station on the wrong channel.

This was posted in another thread and I found it a good reference to how to fix the problem.

http://thenears.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/troubleshooting-atsc-issues-in-mce/

If, however, you would have said that you had all green bars but you still couldnt receive the station, that would be an indication that the station had messed with the PSIP data and there's really nothing you can do except contact the station and hope for the best.

-dickm
Thanks for the post and information.
I did see this in that link you provided....
Whereas most receivers get the information about the channels you can receive by scanning the spectrum to see what’s out there, Media Center does things a little differently. As part of the guide information download, MCE also gets a list of the OTA channels in your area from the guide provider.

According to that, it appears Media Center gets both the list of channels and the programming data from the guide provider (Zap2it), not part from the FCC and the rest from Zap2it. Though I could easily see where Zap2it would use the FCC database for the channel information.

Your post did cause a light to come on for me though, The "incorrect" channel info we are now being sent is in fact where the final ATSC channels for both KPTV and KPDX will end up. KPTV will change from channel 30 to channel 12 and KPDX will change from channel 48 to channel 30 after the Feb 2009 transition. So it would seem someone at Zap2it looked to the wrong database.

That doesn't completely explain where the error occurred though since other channels, such as KGW for example, will also be moving their assigned channel numbers after the transition yet the local info still has them listed at their current channel number and not the one they will use after Feb 2009.

Again, thanks for your post and the clues.


I still have yet to receive a response from Zap2it for the e-mail I sent Monday...

This was posted in another thread and I found it a good reference to how to fix the problem.

http://thenears.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/troubleshooting-atsc-issues-in-mce/


I used this guide to cut the fixed 12 and 49 channel info from atscchannels.xml to atscprefs.xml, added the "user defined" of "KPTV" (not KPTV-DT), and a minor channel of "1", and it seems to be working. I refreshed the guide and it was still tuning into 12 and 49 successfully. It appears that atscprefs.xml does override atscchannels.xml.

I'll put the guide on automatic download again an see how it goes.

-Dan

plympton
worked for me. I used the same reference you linked to and deleted the lines for kptv 12 and kpdx 49 in atscchannels.xml. did a manual add channel for them both. they are working now even after a guide download. so far so good

I actually contacted KPDX and talked to their director of engineering about why I was suddenly unable to lock onto their stations. He forwarded me a link to this thread for which I am very grateful.

I am, however, also having the same problem with KOPB-DT. I've sent an email to OPB to see if they are planning a frequency change next year, but haven't heard back yet. Has anyone had problems with OPB lately?

I am, however, also having the same problem with KOPB-DT. I've sent an email to OPB to see if they are planning a frequency change next year, but haven't heard back yet. Has anyone had problems with OPB lately?

Kevin,
Are you having trouble with just guide information? It appears that KOPB has 4 channels in ATSC now - 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, and 10.4. Odd, since they only list 3 on their website.. anyway.

I wasn't getting guide information for 10.1 - I mapped the guide information to KOPB manually, and it's been working fine since then.

I'm using Vista MC, and I'm also ATSC only (I used the guide hack to get guide info for most of my subchannels, found on thegreenbutton.com)

-Dan

Kevin,
Are you having trouble with just guide information? It appears that KOPB has 4 channels in ATSC now - 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, and 10.4. Odd, since they only list 3 on their website.. anyway.

I wasn't getting guide information for 10.1 - I mapped the guide information to KOPB manually, and it's been working fine since then.

I'm using Vista MC, and I'm also ATSC only (I used the guide hack to get guide info for most of my subchannels, found on thegreenbutton.com)

-Dan

Hi Dan,

I'm using VistaMCE with ATSC and analog cable...

Right now, I cannot tune to the OPB channel at all (the signal strength meter shows only one red bar).

Previously (a few weeks ago) I could tune to the channel, but the guide information was sometimes incorrect (and sometimes correct). I haven't gone through the guide hack to get subchannels yet though. Thought about it, just have got around to it yet. I'll have to solve the current problem first.

I actually contacted KPDX and talked to their director of engineering about why I was suddenly unable to lock onto their stations. He forwarded me a link to this thread for which I am very grateful.

I am, however, also having the same problem with KOPB-DT. I've sent an email to OPB to see if they are planning a frequency change next year, but haven't heard back yet. Has anyone had problems with OPB lately?

kevinjmills, if you read the first post in this thread you'll find the information about which channels the stations use now as well as the channel numbers they'll be using after the 2009 transition.

So far OPB is still fine for me.

kevinjmills, if you read the first post in this thread you'll find the information about which channels the stations use now as well as the channel numbers they'll be using after the 2009 transition.

So far OPB is still fine for me.

Thanks. I read that post which is why I thought that maybe it was the same problem. But since OPB is working fine for you, it looks like the problem is probably more likely isolated to just me. OPB has always been my most problematic station.

I'm located in a lower spot in Sherwood which may be contributing to the situation.

I got home this evening and was beginning to edit my atscchannels.xml file. The info for KPDX and KPTV was correct! already. And the stations are locking in. Looks like the guide data supplier fixed the error. OPB is back to life as well. Go figure. These Media Centers are a fickle lot.

> It appears that KOPB has 4 channels in ATSC now - 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, and 10.4.
> Odd, since they only list 3 on their website.

If "their website" refers to http://www.opb.org/ it has had listings for
all four subchannels for awhile now. It might not be obvious that one
of the digital subchannels has the same programming as the analog channel.

I changed my zip code from 97219 to 97201 and now it works.

KPDX channel 48 has been problematic for the last few days.
This is *not* a virtual to physical mapping problem.

Looking around to see if anything else has changed, I notice
that channel 51 (analog) suddenly shows up strong. An old
antennaweb listing says 51 is KOXO-CA in Newberg, 118 KW.
A recent tvfool listing says that KOXO-CA 51 is coming
from the Portland tower farm at 95 KW.

Did KOXO-CA move from Newberg to Portland? Seems odd, but
if so that would explain the increase in signal strength I'm
seeing. (My antenna is pointed at Portland, not Newberg.)

I've been wondering about the reason why WB-32 digital's 10 PM newscast (supplied by KGW-HD) was not in HD anymore. This is the response I received from WB's program coordinator today.

-----------------------------
Good afternoon –

Thank you for your interest in the high definition broadcast of “NewsChannel 8 @ 10 on Portland ’s CW”.

As you noticed, we have not of late been airing the 10:00 pm newscast in high definition. Unfortunately, we are having issues with the main microwave link between KGW studios and our own. Although they are producing the news in high definition, the link we are temporarily using does not handle high definition video. We are down converting the signal to standard definition before it leaves KGW in order to get it to our studios. Since we aren’t receiving their high definition video, we are unable to pass it along to our viewers.



We apologize for the inconvenience. Know we are working on this issue and hope to have it resolved soon.



Thanks for watching Portland ’s CW!



Steve Martino

Program Coordinator

Portland’s CW

Looks like I'm on a roll here with responses. Here' one I received this morning from national PBS regarding my inquiry of why NewsHour-HD was not part of their national HD feed (given to OPB).

--------------------------------

Dear Hormoz,


Thank you for writing to PBS. We apologize for your frustration.

Yes, KOPB along with a lot of other local PBS stations find it either cost prohibitive or technologically impossible to switch to the source for the NewHour in HD.

Therefore, As of May 5, PBS will add a weeknightly HD play of THE NEWSHOUR WITH JIM LEHRER to the national PBS HD schedule to help stations that have limited HD functionality air the NEWSHOUR in HD.



Sincerely,

PBS Satellite Services

satellite@pbs.org

In response to a post about LOS on KATU: I too am seeing the same very erratic signal. I sent their engineers an email about it but never got an answer. Some nights it is okay but once you believe they got it fixed, it becomes erratic again.

I've been wondering about the reason why WB-32 digital's 10 PM newscast (supplied by KGW-HD) was not in HD anymore.


Not directly HD related, but I wonder if this is why the SD broadcast is flawed when viewed on DirecTV.

Rather than letterbox the feed into the 4:3 SD feed on the saltellite broadcast, they are simply chopping off the sides on the SD feed for DirecTV.

The result: sometimes the on-air personalities are off to the left or right side partly, and the CW logo is chopped in half.

My assessment: the broadcast is not preserving any safe area for 4:3 viewing on conventional sets.

The Channel 8 @ 10 News is what I TiVo everyday for my nightly catchup of the local news.

Mike

Did the problem with a Tivo series 3 freezing when watching
KATU digital captions ever get resolved?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10928271&&#post10928271

It looks like the Insignia CECB may have the same problem?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13197345&postcount=237

Thanks KPTV for airing the rescheduled NASCAR race this morning.

Given that in the past they went ahead with regular programming instead, I am pleased to see them use the national FOX feed and air the postponed race. I hope they continue with this practice.