I'm new to the HD OTA experience - just purchased an HD TV (Vizio) and a cheap indoor antenna.

I'd like to know if the pixelation that appears to accompany lots of motion in the HD streams is related to poor reception or the encoding of the transmission.

Or to put it another way, can I invest in a better antenna and get better results?

I hope to watch HD Blazer games, and pixelation will really ruin it.

If it matters, the picture seems crystal clear in areas that have no motion - for instance, the logo that is displayed during the news broadcasts.

Thanks!

-Kelly

> I'd like to know if the pixelation that appears to accompany
> lots of motion in the HD streams is related to poor reception
> or the encoding of the transmission.

Pixelation during lots of motion is likely to be due to overcompression
at the TV station rather than a reception problem. There is only
enough bandwidth for 1 HD or 2 SD programs, but several stations
have more than that, resulting in overcompression artifacts.

I have also seem pixelation and other problems that are not
due to motion but are still caused by the TV station.

Some tuners provide enough info about reception quality that
you can tell if an artifact is due to reception or not.

> a cheap indoor antenna
> Or to put it another way, can I invest in a better antenna and get
> better results?

A top of the line consumer TV antenna is less than $40, and will
almost certainly provide more reliable reception with fewer
artifacts than an indoor antenna. However, it will not help with
problems that originate at the TV station or the network. (and
neither will cable or satellite)

I hope to watch HD Blazer games, and pixelation will really ruin it.


-Kelly

About the only Blazer games you will get in HD with OTA would be any broadcast by ABC on KATU-DT. As far as I know, none of the KGW games (like tonight's) are done in HD. All other games on ESPN or CSN presented in HD are available on cable only and are not available OTA.

Pixelation during lots of motion is likely to be due to overcompression
at the TV station rather than a reception problem. There is only
enough bandwidth for 1 HD or 2 SD programs, but several stations
have more than that, resulting in overcompression artifacts.

I have also seem pixelation and other problems that are not
due to motion but are still caused by the TV station.

Some tuners provide enough info about reception quality that
you can tell if an artifact is due to reception or not.

Thanks for the info. Now, I wonder if the HD will use better compression when the analog transmissions end - they could right? Or will they just transmit more HD channels over the same bandwidth and continue with the poor compression?

A top of the line consumer TV antenna is less than $40, and will
almost certainly provide more reliable reception with fewer
artifacts than an indoor antenna. However, it will not help with
problems that originate at the TV station or the network. (and
neither will cable or satellite)

I live in Hillsboro and have what I call good line-of-sight to the towers on the hill. Any recommendations for an antenna that fits the bill here? Any local shops to pick one up? I currently have the indoor antenna in my garage and it really seems to do the job. Unfortunately, I don't think my tuner displays the quality of reception, so it's a bit subjective right? Is there anything in particular i can look for that would indicate a better antenna is in order?

Thanks.

Did the problem with a Tivo series 3 freezing when watching
KATU digital captions ever get resolved?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10928271&&#post10928271

I haven't re-enabled digital captions to test it because I didn't like missing recordings. I'll turn them back on tonight and see what happens over the next few days. Maybe the latest TiVo software fixed this issue...

Thanks for the info. Now, I wonder if the HD will use better compression when the analog transmissions end - they could right?
No they can't. The ATSC standard uses MPEG-2 (like what DVDs use) and won't be changing. Encoders have improved over the years by making the ugliest compression artifacts less obvious but stations have simply dropped the bit rates to bring the artifacts back.

Or will they just transmit more HD channels over the same bandwidth and continue with the poor compression?
They'll probably add more and more SD channels since there will be more viewers with digital receivers. That's why right now they're giving us the absolute minimum bit rate to provide barely acceptable HD.

kjcouch-

Analog koin is vhf channel 6, digital koin is uhf channel 40. When analog vhf 6 goes away it will not have any effect on uhf 40. The band width will neither increase nor decrease on uhf 40. This situation is similiar with all the local OTA's. You seem to have your apples mixed with your oranges.:D

Yes, I think kjcouch is thinking about cable bandwidth, not OTA. Comcast will drop a bunch of analog channels once the digital transition takes place. But that's a topic for a different forum.

GT1Boy writes:
> I haven't re-enabled digital captions to test it because
> I didn't like missing recordings.

The captions are mixed in with the video mpeg data, right? (Same PID?)
So the Tivo would be recording the same bits either way.
The difference would be when you watch the recording.

I would think that watching a previously recorded show with
digital captions on would be safe as long as you weren't
recording something at the time?

> I wonder if the HD will use better compression when the analog
> transmissions end - they could right?

The digital channel is separate from the analog channel.
When the analog channel goes away next year, the FCC takes
the channel back. UHF channels 52-69 will go away and be
sold off for other uses. :-(

The station's budget and engineering time currently used
for analog could be given to digital, so perhaps better
equipment could be purchased, etc.

Everyone currently watching analog will have to watch digital
instead, so the stations may get more complaints about
overcompression and other problems.

> Any recommendations for an antenna that fits the bill here?

You are far enough away from the towers that you don't need to
worry about needing a wide beam pattern to get all the towers.
So I recommend getting highly directional (high gain) antennas.
A highly directional antenna will pick up less multipath,
and will provide more signal strength.

VHF-HI

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html
Antennacraft Y10-7-13

UHF

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DAT75.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w8800.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB8.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html

Antenna manufacturers

http://www.winegard.com/
http://www.channelmaster.com/
http://www.antennacraft.net/

Mail order

http://www.solidsignal.com/
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/
http://www.summitsource.com/
http://www.starkelectronic.com/

I got the YA-1713 and PR-8800 and put them in the attic.
I couldn't find them locally. You can get RG6 quad shield coax
locally from Lowes. You shouldn't require a preamp in Hillsboro.

I posted this on the Comcast forum, but believe it is OTA as well. Does anyone notice the audio clicks on KGW HD during their news? I hear it at Noon and 11PM.

I posted this on the Comcast forum, but believe it is OTA as well. Does anyone notice the audio clicks on KGW HD during their news? I hear it at Noon and 11PM.

Absolutly yes on my Comcast HD. It was there on my older Motorola box (oval) with composite/optical and even on my new one (newer Motorolla) with HDMI.

I actually have video blips on 8, but those seem to be only on our non-HDTV Motorola box (FiOS), seems like the sound can go out during those blips as well. Don't notice it on the HDTV nor the antenna.

I actually have video blips on 8, but those seem to be only on our non-HDTV Motorola box (FiOS), seems like the sound can go out during those blips as well. Don't notice it on the HDTV nor the antenna.

Yes. I did not mention the video. I get white lines...a streak...but only on the News.

I don't watch a lot of tv on this box, but do notice that the only breakups are during the local news. Wife sometimes has the Today Show on and I don't notice the problems there.

I'm suspecting this is a source signal from KGW, but I still don't see or hear it on the HD channel during the news.

I posted this on the Comcast forum, but believe it is OTA as well. Does anyone notice the audio clicks on KGW HD during their news? I hear it at Noon and 11PM.

I record the KGW 11 PM news every evening on my TiVo HD from Comcast in Tualatin. I play back audio via analog L+R outputs to my stereo system. I average about 10 minutes of viewing per broadcast. I have never heard any audio clicks.

I record the KGW 11 PM news every evening on my TiVo HD from Comcast in Tualatin. I play back audio via analog L+R outputs to my stereo system. I average about 10 minutes of viewing per broadcast. I have never heard any audio clicks.

Geee is there anyway it can be Comcast? It is only on the HD News, and it is on all 3 of my HD TV's!

I haven't re-enabled digital captions to test it because I didn't like missing recordings. I'll turn them back on tonight and see what happens over the next few days. Maybe the latest TiVo software fixed this issue...

I'm happy to report no lockups so far during weather segments on KATU-DT newscasts since enabling digital captions. :)

Geee is there anyway it can be Comcast? It is only on the HD News, and it is on all 3 of my HD TV's!

Not just Comcast, I have FiOS. And yes, it's only during the local news...and not on the HD channel that I'm aware of.

GT1Boy writes:

> I'm happy to report no lockups so far during weather segments
> on KATU-DT newscasts since enabling digital captions.

So either KATU-DT changed their CC or Tivo fixed their bug.
Do you still have a recording known to trigger the bug?

So it was fixed but now my Channel 12 and 49 went and gol-darn broke again. :( This time a zip code change didn't fix it.

So it was fixed but now my Channel 12 and 49 went and gol-darn broke again. :( This time a zip code change didn't fix it.
broke for me also. I reapplied the fix from a earlier post and it is working again for me for now, even after a guide update. In the example below i used 30 for KPTV and 48 for KPDX when adding a channel in VMC

# Locate the file C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs\atscchannels.xml. Note that this is a hidden file, so you’ll need to tell Windows XP to let you see hidden files by clicking Start, My Computer, Tools, Folder Options, View Tab, Show Hidden Files and Folders.
# Open the file C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs\atscchannels.xml in notepad by right-clicking the file and selecting “Edit”.
# Delete the entire line that contains the information for the offending channel, in this example I want to delete the entire “WIVB” line. My new file should look like this:
# Save the updated file by clicking File, Save.
# Open up Media Center and manually add the channel using the information that you know to be correct (in this example: major 4, minor 1, physical 39, callsign WIVB). Rather than reinvent the wheel, let me point you to a very well-done article by John Elsbree that walks you through how to do this.
# Verify that the new channel is working for you

yea i applied the fix from pg216 of this thread...
the fixed worked for me, but in the last 3 days, it keeps failing me...

I'm having to add and re-add the bogus channel daily now...
(i've made the atscchannels.xml to be read-only)

any other ideas?
i'm *this* close from ordering an HDhomerun....

So either KATU-DT changed their CC or Tivo fixed their bug.
Do you still have a recording known to trigger the bug?

Nope. Any test recording that I tried to make would end right at the point where the TiVo locked up.

yea i applied the fix from pg216 of this thread...
the fixed worked for me, but in the last 3 days, it keeps failing me...

I'm having to add and re-add the bogus channel daily now...
(i've made the atscchannels.xml to be read-only)

any other ideas?
i'm *this* close from ordering an HDhomerun....

my bad...i read up pg.217 and the article and created the KPTV-DT & KPDX-DT digital channels manually...
things seem to be working (now)....

hopefully this will stick....

Not just Comcast, I have FiOS. And yes, it's only during the local news...and not on the HD channel that I'm aware of.

So, it is on Comcast and FIOS but not OTA? So where can the bug be?

So, it is on Comcast and FIOS but not OTA? So where can the bug be?


I think my bug is more with the P.O.S Motorola box that I have than anything else, noticed dropouts on the CW and CNBC last night and this morning. I still don't notice anything on the HD news broadcast though.

So, it is on Comcast and FIOS but not OTA? So where can the bug be?Because of the posts about this, I watched the KGW news OTA tonight and yes, at random, there is what sounds like a faint high voltage snap.

Because of the posts about this, I watched the KGW news OTA tonight and yes, at random, there is what sounds like a faint high voltage snap.
Well, maybe that explains why I can't hear the problem. Too much Led Zeppelin at too high a volume for me to hear "faint" sounds any more. :)

I do see faint white horizontal lines that appear very briefly. Are the audio dropouts correlated to those? Someone mentioned "white lines" in an earlier post.

I have been hearing the KGW news audio issue OTA for a while now...several weeks at least. As described above it sounds a lot like a little static discharge -- it's subtle, but it's definitely there. Sometimes it happens every few seconds or so, other times it's less often. As far as I can recall, it only happens during the news...not during other programming or commercials. It also seems to happen whether they are showing live studio shots or pre-recorded video from the field.

I have been hearing the KGW news audio issue OTA for a while now...several weeks at least. As described above it sounds a lot like a little static discharge -- it's subtle, but it's definitely there. Sometimes it happens every few seconds or so, other times it's less often. As far as I can recall, it only happens during the news...not during other programming or commercials. It also seems to happen whether they are showing live studio shots or pre-recorded video from the field.

Yes...and a lot during the weather!

scottw383 writes:
> I have been hearing the KGW news audio issue OTA for a while
> now...several weeks at least. As described above it sounds a
> lot like a little static discharge -- it's subtle, but it's
> definitely there. Sometimes it happens every few seconds or so,
> other times it's less often. As far as I can recall, it only
> happens during the news...not during other programming or
> commercials.

Hmmm, "a little static discharge" might be the same type of
noise I described as "similar to a dirty volume control" back
in November (Thanksgiving Day parade). Hdflies described the
same noises as "popping & distort sounds", probably a difference
in decoders. There were also noises in _Chuck_.

OPB is cranking out noises that are not at all subtle. :-(

Well i am new to HD tv.
got a nice 1080P 42" and i don't have cable nor do i want it.
But i can't get any, i mean ANY, HD channels.
I live in 97214 so inner SE of portland, i am only 5 miles from towers with a pretty direct view. I have a Radio Shack Omnidirectional VHF/UHF Tv Antenna. I get all teh analog channels.

Am i missing anything.

Well i am new to HD tv.
got a nice 1080P 42" and i don't have cable nor do i want it.
But i can't get any, i mean ANY, HD channels.
I live in 97214 so inner SE of portland, i am only 5 miles from towers with a pretty direct view. I have a Radio Shack Omnidirectional VHF/UHF Tv Antenna. I get all teh analog channels.

Am i missing anything.Did you scan for digital channels as well as analog? Are there multiple coax inputs on your TV? If so, maybe only one of them attaches to the digital tuner and the other is used for cable/analog.

Instead of guessing, it would be easier to help diagnose if we knew the brand and model of your TV.

I have a toshiba 42HL167 1080P

it has only one COAX input.
I have scanned for both analog and digital.

I called KOIN today and the tech guy said to get a simple unpowered SILVER SENSOR as the powered one sometimes pump the signal too much.

This omnidirectional from Radio Shack really didn't get any channels. He said omnis are no good.

A coworker bought an HDTV and couldn't get any digital channels until I told him to have the TV directly scan the individual digital channels (30, 40, 48, etc.). Then it suddenly recognized them. He was very very happy about that.

what do you mean by Scan individual digital channels?

i type in 2-1 or 8-1 etc.. but it says signal too low.
and no image appears.

What happens when you type in 30, 40, or 48? These are the real channels that the digital stations broadcast on.

http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster/0612/3000.html

this is pretty much what i got. except Radio Shack brand and it doesn't work for me.

What happens when you type in 30, 40, or 48? These are the real channels that the digital stations broadcast on.

i haven't tried that. but i will tonight when i get home.

i haven't tried that. but i will tonight when i get home.
So, did it work?

turning the tv off for 5 mins and disconnecting the power cord also.
then turned it back on, rescanned on ANT mode and i got all teh channels.

Glad you got it worked out.

The Media Center guide/tuner error seems to be back, only this time it is with KGW and OPB primary channels (secondary channels seem to be working). Is anyone else with Vista MC having this problem?
I haven't had a chance to try the old "fix" yet.

The Media Center guide/tuner error seems to be back, only this time it is with KGW and OPB primary channels (secondary channels seem to be working). Is anyone else with Vista MC having this problem?
I haven't had a chance to try the old "fix" yet.
Yes I have also lost KGW 8 and OPB on my OTA in vista media center. tried to download new guide and then tried running the guide setup from scratch. didn't work. when i get time i will try the fix that was used for KPTV and KPDX which are both working great now. Very frustrating, it seems that if a television ATSC tunner can keep up with these changes so should Vista media center.

after losing KGW 8 and kOPB 10 i checked the atscchannels.xml file and found that the major channels had been changed for both
KGW major had been changed from 46 to 8
KOPB major had been changed from 27 to 10

according to the first post on the thread these changes are not to take affect until the end of the year

I deleted the KGW and KOPB lines in the atscchannels xml file and then manually added them back in media centers tv setup

it is working for now

looks as if the guide info jumped the gun

I also just found out i lost KPXG 22

its major channel was changed from 4 to 22 after changing it back it also worked

after losing KGW 8 and kOPB 10 i checked the atscchannels.xml file and found that the major channels had been changed for both
KGW major had been changed from 46 to 8
KOPB major had been changed from 27 to 10

according to the first post on the thread these changes are not to take affect until the end of the year

I deleted the KGW and KOPB lines in the atscchannels xml file and then manually added them back in media centers tv setup

it is working for now

looks as if the guide info jumped the gun

I also just found out i lost KPXG 22

its major channel was changed from 4 to 22 after changing it back it also worked
So I seem to be suffering the same problem with my Vista MediaCenter setup. I lost KGW, OPB (primary) and a couple of other channels on Sunday. I've scratched my head, messed with my MCE box (pulling hardware trying to isolate a problem) to no avail. I had come to the conclusion it was misalignment with my antenna.

From the sounds of this thread I may be off base as this is a problem that has been seen before? I've had MCE for almost 3years and never encountered it.

Anyway, could someone take a minute or two and give me the details of what's going on and how I can fix it? Sounds like I need to mess with an xml configuration file.

Much appreciated!

-Brett-

Anyway, could someone take a minute or two and give me the details of what's going on and how I can fix it? Sounds like I need to mess with an xml configuration file.

Much appreciated!

-Brett-

If you go back three or four pages in this thread, you will see the discussion about this problem, although it was originally dealing with KPTV. Here is a link that will take you directly to the "fix".
http://thenears.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/troubleshooting-atsc-issues-in-mce/

You guys are local enough to me that it makes me think I'm having the same issue up here in Seattle. My Vista box lost all OTA HD signals last night and nothing I tried would get them back. I'm at work now, so I'll have to tinker when I get home, but hopefully this is the problem for me.

Or maybe not... I can't be the only one in Seattle using Vista MC to receive OTA HD...

If you go back three or four pages in this thread, you will see the discussion about this problem, although it was originally dealing with KPTV. Here is a link that will take you directly to the "fix".
http://thenears.wordpress.com/2006/09/12/troubleshooting-atsc-issues-in-mce/

Perfect. The link (http://thenears.wordpress.com/2006/0...issues-in-mce/) helped me completely solve the problem, even after guide updates. The key to making the changes stick after a guide update is to follow the directions closely so that the atscprefs.xml file gets updated. Since it overrides what's in atscchannels.xml (which is what the guide data updates) the changes should be permanent.

Thanks for the help all. This was a frustrating problem!

Is anyone getting glitches on KOIN? Not due to
motion/scene_change/lighting. Reception appears
to be perfect (good numbers from tuner, no
complaints from mpeg decoder).

Hey EZ Rider

I'm in the same boat with 9-1 and 11-1 out here in Duvall, WA.

Got to the point where I've downloaded BeyondTV just to check that my tuners are OK- which they are.

Hope there's a fix for this, my Vista MCE doesn't even have the prefs/ATSC file because I use the cable listings hack to get channel guide data for my digital sub-stations.

Vista is really ticking me off....I'm about 20 seconds from shelling out for BeyondTV at this point.

Finally got it to work.
c:\program data\microsoft\ehome\epg\prefs\

edit the file atscprefs.xml in notepad, deleting completely the lines for the channels that aren't showing up.

Open mediacenter and go to guide-add missing channels. Manually add the channels you just deleted (use up to date channel data from titantv.)

Here's the full details on the fix:

http://thegreenbutton.com/blogs/pnear/archive/2006/09/12/202708.aspx

It appears that the heart of the problem is that Zap2It has begun using the POST Feb 8 2009 switchover values already.

To complete my rant about the shortcomings of Vista MCE and ATSC OTA, here is the list of all of the hacks I've had to do to get my system running (and still have missing channel guide data for Qubo and ionLife):

Had to search on Zap2It and Titan TV to discover then manually add digital sub-channels to MCE

Had to use a registry hack to get channel guide data for digital subchannels (Accident's Hack http://www.accidentsworld.com/mceguides/vista-atschack.htm)

Had to find add-ins to do timeshift buffer recording (why can't they intelligently include time buffer data for shows when you hit record halfway through a show? EVERY OTHER DVR does this!!!)

And now this latest hack. Wonder if Microsoft is really all that committed to this OTA DVR thing...

Other than the "buffer recording" how do you figure it's a Vista issue or draw any conclusion on Microsoft's commitment. Unless you think they contracted with Zap2it because MS knew they'd screw up and make Vista look bad.

MS hasn't addressed the issue with auto-scan not detecting sub-channels.

MS hasn't addressed their inability to download or display the sub-channel guide data that Zap2It provides (yes it does, just check the website listings.)

MS hasn't addressed the timeshift buffer record issue.

MS hasn't addressed the above "lost channel" issue which pretty much screwed up my HTPC for the past week and lead to me nearly abandoning their platform.

To call this entire cluge-y OTA ATSC operation Zap2It's issue is a bit of a stretch, no? Don't you think that all 4 issues stated above are Vista's issues and reflect on their commitment (or lack thereof)? Not to mention that MS did contract Zap2It to do the channel guide service, so their incompetence reflects MS's bad investment in any event.

BeyondTV gets every single one of these things right out of the gate, and the only reason I haven't switched is because I've already invested in MediaCenter (and the MCE software has tendrils that interfere with almost every aspect of BTV's operation). Or maybe I'm a sucker for punishment and enjoy the challenge of trying to get their multi-billion-dollar software platform to do something as simple as schedule and record OTA digital broadcasts.

Don't you think that all 4 issues stated above are Vista's issues and reflect on their commitment (or lack thereof)?
No, I don't. In fact, the lost channel issue is completely a Zap2it thing, you even know that, you even posted about them sending the post 2009 channel line up.

Media Center doesn't scan for channels, you plug in your zipcode and based on that a file is downloaded from Zap2it that supposedly tells your tuner what the channel number of the available channels are for your area. That's why when they send the wrong data your tuner quits since it's being directed to tune to a channel that doesn't exist here. Zap2it doesn't send the sub channel numbers out, but you can add them manually.

The guide data for the sub-channels does seem to have more involved that just Zap2it not sending it out. I found mention of MS working on a fix, but the number of those with an ATSC tuner and Vista Media Center are rather small and of those the ones that care about sub channels are even less so it's not a top priority issue apparently.

As I said, I'll give you the record buffer issue, the others mainly fall square on Zap2it.

I do also agree that Microsoft made a mistake in trusting a 3rd party to insure their TV functions work as intended.

Thanks to buckfalfa for the link to greenbutton on fixing the missing channels issue in OTA Vista MCE. Only downside is, now those channels don't show up in the guide as having any information. Has anyone found a way to have the channel be available for viewing and show up in the guide to allow for easy recording? (i.e., is there a way for me to have my cake and eat it too?).
I know the answer probably lies in Zap2it getting their act together and providing the proper info for the channels in the guide updates...but it's been a couple mos. now dealing with this.
If anyone has figured this out, please let us know.
And thanks again to everyone who has contributed to sorting this stuff out. Would have never figured it out on my own.

I haven't experienced this fix causing channel guide data to stop working. If Vista's guide doesn't auto-find the channel guide info, check the name you've given the re-added lost channel and make sure it matches the guide data. You could also go in under "edit channel guide data(?)" and point the fixed channel at the proper guide listing. (Sorry, I'm not currently in front of my vista htpc to check the menu titles).

In short, yes you should easily be able to point it at the proper channel guide data (or edit the channel name so that it auto-finds your listings).

To locate the channel name (usually the station call sign) the Zap2It expects, just go to Zap2It.com and check their listings for your local OTA stations.

This discussion makes me wonder if the reason I receive nothing from KEZI-HD in Eugene, is because the sub-channel number is wrong on my MCE channel settings? I receive the other 4 HD OFA stations very well, but KEZI is a complete blank.

I reset my antenna positions, to aim my UHF array towards the location of 3 of the 4 local stations I receive. It didn't work very well, from a distance of 13 miles, with irregular reception. But, my long-tined VHF antenna gets them all with a full 6 out of 6 signal-strength. The trick is that I have it turned so the tines are only about 25 degrees off of parallel to the signal direction. This presents the signal with an effective frontal span of much less than their actual length and must correspond to the short HD wavelengths. This MCE computer is working pretty well for video, after I figured out the convoluted Menu control processes. I don't like the way it puts a bright green border all the way around the picture on my CRT HDTV-----at least it doesn't do that on an LCD computer monitor. The co-axial digital audio output doesn't work and H-P tells me that it's due to a flaw in the operating system, which would have to be completely restored to fix it. This would erase all my added files and it seems like Microsoft would have an update to fix just this specific problem. Has anyone else with Vista had this problem? I will probably just get a USB audio card, if no update is available.

As a followup to my previous post, I followed the instructions from The Nears and was able to change KEZI-DT in Eugene from its incorrect EPG listing of physical channel 14, to the right one of 44. They've been using 44 since they went on the air with DTV in 2004. They will shift to their current analog channel 9 for digital transmission, next February. Thanks very much to the writer of these instructions and to those who passed them on to me. I wonder how much of this manual re-shuffling we'll have to do next year with our channel listings, when many of them change their numbers?

Windows Vista required me to learn a new of steps to navigate the C/Programs and Settings. It seems to me they were easier to find and use in Windows XP. Anyone like me, who has a minimum of in-depth computer experience, may have to hunt around a bit on the C-Drive page, to follow the instructions that were written for XP. But, all the documents can be found, with the same sub-category names. See my message farther down, about the different opening steps you need to follow to do this procedure with Vista.

I contacted the very friendly and helpful Dennis Hunt, the Chief Engineer for KEZI and he gave me the physical channel number. He thinks the reason I'm getting DTV stations on a VHF antenna that is pointed well away from their direction, is due to a reflected signal from the hills. He said the signal might even be reflecting from their own tower in the Coburg Hills, about 100 degrees NE in relation to my house, from the 3 stations on Blanton Heights that I receive. I get all 5 local stations with 6 out of 6 signal-strength, on this same antenna. It's only 5 feet above the corner of my roof, below the peak and mostly has the signal paths intersected by large trees, but it still works. Considering the much lower power the DTV transmitters use, the distance their workable signals travel is amazing.

The shift to digital signals may open terrestrial TV reception to a lot more people, in out-of-the-way places, with no cable or satellite bills to pay. It may be just like 1953 all over again for antenna installers. Investing in an antenna business might be a good venture in the next year. This might also give a boost to the declining broadcast networks, if a number of people turn away from satellite and cable and use the newly-available free programming. You might see the networks responding to those potential viewers by showing more re-runs of Hee-Haw and Mayberry RFD. Now, onward to find all those sub-channels.

Ever since new (Apr'07; mfg date July 06) my Polaroid FLM 2632 LCD would get all stations OTA digital beautifully except KATU (ch 2) would be at 43.1 and not have any of the PSIP info: No call letters (listed as RF43.1) no program guide, no program description (great picture though). Polaroid says it isn't their fault & refuses to authorize warranty repair. KATU says they are sending out the PSIP signal properly. So I unplug antenna, rescan w/o signal to clear the memory, unplug the set for awhile, plug it all back & rescan, same thing: broadcast is at RF43.1 instead of KATU-DT 2.1. I know KATU broadcasts on 43 and the set is supposed to use the PSIP signal to "map" the station to 2.1 like all the other stations do with their physical-to-virtual location. So periodically I try a rescan as detailed above to see if this gremlin will go away. Today I did such a rescan and lost KGW ch 8 to it's physical location: Now it comes in as RF46.1 & RF46.2 good picture & sound but no PSIP info; Ch 8 used to come in as it should at 8.1 & 8.2 with program guide and info, now= not. I have a newer Sharp TV that maps all stations to their correct number (the Sharp doesn't support program guide though), same antenna(rooftop+splitter). Have read on internet that broadcasters don't always set up PSIP correctly & some receivers demand precise PSIP setup from station. Anyone else having problems? I'm trying to determine if this is a broadcasters problem or the set is failing.

Don't know if this helps any, but I got my Zenith digital to analog converter yesterday, and the PSIP info displays correctly. It expects PSIP entries, but if I enter 43, it tentatively identifies the channel display as 43.1, and finding no such thing, it automatically searches RF 43.1, and changes the channel display to show KATU-DT 2.1. Same for KGW.

Is there a problem with channel 12's OTA HD signal tonight? I turned on FOX to watch American Idol (via my OTA antenna) and it was HD but the picture was choppy as it sometimes is because of my location. So I started walking to the TV to adjust the antenna and I must have hit some button on my TV's remote because it changed to channel 2 which was extremely fuzzy (not just unclear, but fuzzy the way UHF channels used to be 25 years ago). I turned back to channel 12 and it was fuzzy too. I went back to the other HD local channels (2.1, 6.1, and 8.1 and they all come in clear in HD). The only FOX channel I can turn to is 12 (isn't there supposed to be a 12.1?). I don't watch OTA HD often, so I can't remember if FOX has a 12.1 or not. I went into my TV's menu to program the channels and there is not a 12.1 listed.

...Update. I had my TV scan for channels and it did not find a 12.1, only 12. Am I completely wrong, or isn't there a SD version of FOX (channel 12) and an HD version (channel 12.1)? I get both versions of ABC, CBS, and NBC. If 12 is the HD FOX, then something is wrong with the signal.

> I had my TV scan for channels and it did not find a 12.1, only 12.
> Am I completely wrong, or isn't there a SD version of FOX (channel 12)
> and an HD version (channel 12.1)?

Channel 12 is Fox analog.
Channel 30 is Fox digital = virtual 12.1.

Last time I looked Fox digital had a single program in 720p HD.

Have your TV look at channel 30 and maybe it will find Fox digital.
It will probably remap it to 12.1.

The instructions on the link previously given to the webpage by Peter Near, for correcting wrong WMC channel numbers set by Zap 2it in your Documents, are written for the XP operating system. There are a couple of changes in the steps taken for the Vista OS. Most of the steps are the same, but if you don't start out with the sequence given here, you won't get to the right place.

On the Startup Page, go to Computer, then click on Organize, then Folder & Search Options, then View, then click the checkbox to show Hidden Files. Then go back to Computer and click on Drive C and click on these steps: (1) Program Data (2) Microsoft (3) eHome (4) EPG (5) prefs (6) atscchannels.xml. Note that the atscchannels file shows the settings that Zap 2it has made with their periodic program guide updates. The next file, atscprefs.xml, shows the changes you have made in your WMC channel settings. The first file will be re-set or possibly changed with each update. However, the second file can be changed only by you and it will dominate over the settings from Zap 2it, which may be incorrect. Follow the steps I will describe below, to delete a line from the atscchannels.xml file, if it has incorrect channel numbers. Only after deleting them there, can you go to the WMC Settings page and to the TV settings and then the Guide settings and to Add Missing Channels. Then re-enter the station with the right major and minor channel numbers, click on Next and enter the physical channel number. I'm repeating here what is mostly the same thing stated in Peter Near's article, but I'm thinking that if I add the few different steps for Vista and don't describe the whole procedure, I may cause some difficulty for anyone who reads this and hasn't seen that article.

To carry out any needed changes in your xml files for a DTV station, go back to the prefs page, which shows 3 files (or just 2 files, if you haven't yet added any channel changes) and right-click on atscchannels.xml and choose Edit. Then put the cursor to the right of the line for that station. Use Backspace to delete the entire line. Then go up and click on File and click on Save. Don't try to re-enter the line with the correct physical channel number, as it can't be properly done there. Then come back to the surface and go to the Media Center Settings page for TV and then Guide and Add Missing Channels. Click on Add DTV Channel and fill in the deleted station's major and minor channels and click Next and add the correct physical channel. Give it the right name and don't forget to click on Add and Done.

As Peter Near's article said, which you can find on links in messages a few weeks back on this thread, if a station's transmitting codes aren't exactly right to match the WMC requirements, all these efforts by you, still won't give you reception on its channel. I've found one of those in Eugene, which is KEVU-DT, on channel 34-2-31. My WMC tuner picks up a duplicate of 29-2-29 at that position, instead of the right one. However, my Zenith Digital TV Converter does receive 34-2-31 just fine. The Zenith converter may ignore a variant setting in the KEVU transmitter, while the WMC tuner does read it and rejects it. I'll have to contact the broadcast engineer at that station and describe this situation.

Don't know if this helps any, but I got my Zenith digital to analog converter yesterday, and the PSIP info displays correctly. It expects PSIP entries, but if I enter 43, it tentatively identifies the channel display as 43.1, and finding no such thing, it automatically searches RF 43.1, and changes the channel display to show KATU-DT 2.1. Same for KGW.

I got a Zenith DTT 900 Digital TV Converter yesterday and it has a superior set of functions over the others I considered. I also got an RCA DTA800, which works fine, but doesn't have nearly as many setting options for aspect ratio and screen modes. The Zenith's Menu is very complex and you have to set the Aspect Ratio choice, before some of the other settings for each channel will function properly. I set mine on 4:3, even though I have a 16:9 TV. The reason will become apparent to anyone who uses this model. I thnk the picture quality is a bit better on the Zenith. It has a handy signal-strength button and a Manual Tuning section of the Menu, that shows you the actual physical or transmitting channels. You can program each channel to its own screen settings and they are remembered. It's quite an impressive little piece of equipment, for $20. plus the coupon, at CC. I'm looking at the OPB HD channel right now through this box on my HDTV and it doesn't look all that bad, compared to the true HD picture from a Comcast DVR. S-Video connections would have been nice, but I can't complain about the results I see from the composite video output.

With my WMC tuner for OTA HD reception and these two converters for my SD TVs and recorders, my cable subscription is rapidly seeming to be less essential. One rooftop antenna is feeding 3 splits, with the farthest one 75 feet away, with no signal amplifier. All 12 Eugene DTV channels come in strongly, depending I'm sure, on some reflected signals. Oddly, there is one sub-channel that carries KEVU-DT on 34-2-31, that these converters receive, but my WMC tuner can't be coaxed into finding it. I've gone through all the procedures of examining my computer's XML files and adding the missing channel, but it just doesn't come in. It has been described by others that the WMC tuners are more particular about the transmitted codes for a station than the converter boxes, so this signal may have some variation that isn't acceptable to it. I've been successful in adding all the other 7 sub-channels to the Zap 2it guide. I'm really beginning to like the digital TV changeover and I think the cable and satellite providers may lose quite a bit of business.

> S-Video connections would have been nice, but I can't
> complain about the results I see from the composite
> video output.

This depends on your TV. If your TV suffers from dot crawl,
s-video is important.

There is a thread for the converter boxes, and one for the closed
caption features. Some boxes crash when displaying captions.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=980052
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=997022

Thanks Talking Rat. My Sharp TV gets it right. I suspect that somehow the PSIP decoder in the Polaroid is corrupted but no one I've found knows how to clear it so I can "start over". BTW Polaroid Tech Support has never heard of PSIP, not a clue.

Three years ago, out here in Redland OR, we fired the cable company. I set up a hand-me-down outdoor antenna on a 15-foot mast, used a preamp and a splitter and we had decent reception of six local analog broadcast channels. This was adequate for our simple needs for several years.

Then about eight months ago something changed: reception of two channels (8&10) turned worse and unusable. The other four (2,5,6&12) continue to be received well in analog mode.

Concerned that something in my system had degraded, I went out and bought new antenna and preamp at Radio Shack, and also replaced my wiring. To no avail: 8&10 still unviewable.

When I started hearing about the upcoming conversion to all-digital transmission, I theorized that maybe those two stations had changed the way they broadcast their analog signal. I looked forward to trying out a converter box and seeing how my reception might improve.

So we ran out and got the RCA converter at Walmart right when they got them; and boy were we disappointed: the only digital channels I receive are the four from Ion Broadcasting at channel 22.

I did a lot of net searching and came to this wonderful info-packed forum. But I’m still stymied. I wonder if someone here can help me solve my reception problem.

I performed the geo-search and learned that numerous stations broadcast from very nearly the exact same location (the West Hills) as the Ion stations but with much more power. Why don’t I receive those signals? The signal strength of Channel 22 is 58 on the RCA’s meter. Those signals provide an excellent picture. On this box, unfortunately, I cannot even attempt to measure signal strength on any of the other digital channels that it doesn’t immediately detect.

I am 16 miles or slightly less from all the transmitters. There are some hills (some with new construction atop) between here and there. But why do I get good reception from a weak digital broadcast and nothing from the majors (ABC, CBS,NBC and OPB)?

Any ideas , theories or suggestions gladly accepted.

It would be a major defeat for me to have to go back to cable.

Thanks,

Dennis

Antenna: Radio Shack VU90 XR
Preamp: Radio Shack 15-2507
Converter: RCA DTA800B

Dennis, you first need to learn what the physical transmitting channels are for those digital stations. On the RCA box, there is a mode in the Menu where you can manually change the channel numbers and you may be able to find those missing signals. Each DTA channel has three numbers, the major channel, which is the one they use for analog transmitting, the minor channel, which is the sub-channel number and the physical channel, on which they actually send the digital signals. One station here in Eugene has numbers of 9-1-44, so I have to receive the digital channel on 44-1 and their one sub-channel on 44-2. OPB is on 28-1-29 and their 3 sub-channels are 28-2-29/28-3-29/28-4-29. These physical channels are not listed on all guides, so you may have to hunt for them.

However, if these signals are present in your area, the RCA box should find them when it goes through its channel-search procedure. My RCA box found all 12 DTA channels on its search-----5 main channels and 7 sub-channels. You might try positioning your antenna in a different place or turning it, although I get everything on one antenna and don't need to turn it. Many DTA signals are picked up from refelections off hills and large buildings.

There's another reason you might not be getting some DTA channels. If the transmitters are not set to send certain exact codes with the signals, the tuners may reject them. All 12 in my area are compatible with my RCA converter, but one sub-channel can't be received by my WMC computer tuner. I'd start by phoning the broadcast engineers at the stations you can't receive and checking to see what physical channels they use and also asking about the codes they send with the signals. If you find a physical channel number that you're not receiving, try manually setting your converter to it and then moving your antenna to see if it comes in. Good luck. But, there may be some DTA channels that just won't be received in some areas. After the analog signals are taken of the air next year, many stations will change their physical channels. Some of them will start using their current analog channels for the DTA signals, but those in the lower VHF range may not, such as channel 6. These changes may allow you to get better reception, after next February.

> I went out and bought new antenna and preamp at Radio Shack,
> and also replaced my wiring.

Radio Shack's products do not enjoy the best reputation.
I understand they have a liberal return policy.

Consider PR-8800, CM 4228, DB-8, XG-91 for UHF; YA-1713 or Y10-7-13 for
VHF-HI.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w8800.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB8.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html

http://www.winegard.com/
http://www.channelmaster.com/
http://www.antennacraft.net/

http://www.solidsignal.com
http://www.starkelectronic.com
http://www.summitsource.com
http://www.warrenelectronics.com

At 16 miles, a good antenna probably doesn't need a preamp.
Try it without at first. If you do need one, go with the low gain
Winegard HDP-269. Too much gain and you'll overload the tuner(s).

> the only digital channels I receive are the four from Ion Broadcasting
> at channel 22

Channel 22 is analog from Salem. The digital version is really
on channel 4 (currently), which is VHF-LO. All the other Portland
digitals are UHF. Sounds like your setup isn't working for UHF.

Last time I looked, article one said we will not have any VHF-LO
stations after the switchover.

I see the Oregonian business section has run an article on the compression of HD signals. Even mentioned AV forums
http://www.oregonlive.com/business/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/business/1208588105116030.xml&coll=7

DennisInRedland have you tried removing the pre-amp from the loop. You may be over powering the receiver. You might evan try knocking the signal down more by using an attenuator.

I'm in West Linn on the backside of the hill and can get all but KRCWs digital signal with a Channel Master 8 Bay UHF antenna split 4 ways and no pre-amp

Then about eight months ago something changed: reception of two channels (8&10) turned worse and unusable. The other four (2,5,6&12) continue to be received well in analog mode.

Concerned that something in my system had degraded, I went out and bought new antenna and preamp at Radio Shack, and also replaced my wiring. To no avail: 8&10 still unviewable.


Something doesn't sound right. 8 and 10 have been my strongest 2 analog channels here in Tualatin, still are. Others have mentioned trying the antenna without a pre-amp, which is a good test to make.

But since the old set-up stopped working and the new antenna/pre-amp didn't fix the problem, then I suspect something else is going on. The first thing I would check is the antenna cable and connectors for damage. It could be that you no longer have DC continuity, so that the pre-amp won't function, in fact it would become an attenuator. If you have access to a voltmeter, with the pre-amp properly connected, you could disconnect the cable from the outdoor amplifier unit. Then measure the voltage between the center conductor and the shield on the cable coming from the house. The manual doesn't show what the voltage should be, but I'd guess somewhere between 12 and 25 volts DC would be reasonable. If you don't see proper voltage, then you may have a bad cable or some other blockage.

Was anything else done about the time the signal went bad? A splitter installed, etc?

Thank you all for your suggestions. Some I won't be able to try until this weekend, but I'm pumped.

I will try removing the preamp. (It also has a knob to dial off some the amplification - I'll do a scan at the lowest level and see what comes up.)

Arnold: I replaced EVERY item in the signal path from the antenna to the preamp. I, like you, thought there had to be a weak link there. But, no.
I even hooked a TV up directly after the preamp (to skip the splitter): no luck.

Perhaps the UHF elements on my antenna are even more directional than I imagined. I'll do some new scans at slightly altered angles.

The RCA DTA800B does not allow me to seach for an individual channel: if it doesn't see it in its comprehensive scan, it doesn't exist(according to it).
Perhaps I'll end up getting some other hardware but I'm going to try everything I can with this setup first.

I'll report back when I've tried out as many of these ideas as I can.

Many thanks

Dennis

Thank you all for your suggestions. Some I won't be able to try until this weekend, but I'm pumped.

I will try removing the preamp. (It also has a knob to dial off some the amplification - I'll do a scan at the lowest level and see what comes up.)

Arnold: I replaced EVERY item in the signal path from the antenna to the preamp. I, like you, thought there had to be a weak link there. But, no.
I even hooked a TV up directly after the preamp (to skip the splitter): no luck.

Perhaps the UHF elements on my antenna are even more directional than I imagined. I'll do some new scans at slightly altered angles.

The RCA DTA800B does not allow me to seach for an individual channel: if it doesn't see it in its comprehensive scan, it doesn't exist(according to it).
Perhaps I'll end up getting some other hardware but I'm going to try everything I can with this setup first.

I'll report back when I've tried out as many of these ideas as I can.

Many thanks

Dennis

Good, it sounds like your on the right track. One other thought, I don't know your level of expertise, so please forgive me if this sounds like a dumb suggestion, but is the antenna pointed in the right general direction? The UHF elements (small ones) should point at the West hills. The design of some of these antennas can be counter intuitive. Is it possible a wind storm blew your original antenna in a completely the wrong direction? I say this because this is exactly what happened to my father's antenna last fall.

Another question. You haven't mentioned 49 or 54 analog. Have you been able to get either of them in the past? That would be a good indicator of how well the new DTV channels should come in. As was mentioned by konrad2, 22 is the only digital channel that is physically on a VHF channel.

Good luck this weekend! It should be great weather for antenna work.

Hope it's going well, Dennis. Have you looked on TVFool.com to see what you can expect for channels? It has great information. Your location suggests you should be getting about twice as many stations as I do. If you put your address in at TVFool.com there is good info there, including signal strength (which antennaweb.com does not have).

I have a tougher reception area, but get 10 Portland stations with an indoor antenna, 22 with the substations. That coathanger antenna works very well and didn't take long to make. It might be handy while you're working on the roof antenna, and I think you will be pleasantly surprised how many channels it pulls in. I use rabbit ears or a homemade dipole to get low VHF analog, and that brings in digital ION channel 4 more easily (although I can lock on if I adjust the coathanger antenna). On February 17th, ION will move back to UHF 22, and NBC, OBP, and FOX will move back to 8, 10, 12.

Here's the coathanger thread, first post has the link to build it. There's a YouTube version as well. I built one of each, and the one with reflector works better for analog, but both get the same 22 digital channels.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265

> ION will move back to UHF 22

And message #1 agrees. Does this mean they will transmit
channel 22 from Portland? What happens to channel 22 in Salem?

Summary: NTSC Channel 22
Current DTV Channel 4
Post-Transition Channel 22
Expected Date of Completion: February 18, 2009

KPXG(TV), Salem, Oregon (the “Station”), licensed to Paxson Salem License, Inc. (the “Licensee”), will be switching to its analog Channel 22 for post-transition digital operations.

The Station plans to use a new Channel 22 antenna for post-transition digital operation from the same tower as the current operation of digital Channel 4.

This link was in Falcon_77's spreadsheet. There's more ...
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=619769

> The Station plans to use a new Channel 22 antenna for
> post-transition digital operation from the same tower
> as the current operation of digital Channel 4.

Good to know, thanks. What happens to the transmitter in Salem?

> This link was in Falcon_77's spreadsheet. There's more ...
> http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/f...ibit_id=619769

I get a zero length file.

Hmm, I can click on my own link, but not yours. It seems to be moved, maybe I have a cached version somehow. OK, so here's what it said:

KPXG(TV), Salem, Oregon (Facility ID No. 5801)
Form 387 – Exhibit
February 2008
____________________________________________________________ __________________
Summary: NTSC Channel 22
Current DTV Channel 4
Post-Transition Channel 22
Expected Date of Completion: February 18, 2009
KPXG(TV), Salem, Oregon (the “Station”), licensed to Paxson Salem License, Inc. (the “Licensee”), will be switching to its analog Channel 22 for post-transition digital operations.
The Station plans to use a new Channel 22 antenna for post-transition digital operation from the same tower as the current operation of digital Channel 4. Where noted, Licensee separately will seek regulatory assistance pursuant to the rules and policies set forth in the Third DTV Periodic Review.

Current Progress. Licensee plans to install a new broadband digital antenna for post-transition DTV operations on Channel 22. Licensee has identified the equipment necessary for its posttransition facilities.

Construction Schedule. Licensee’s remaining schedule for implementing the Station’s full posttransition facilities is as follows:

March 17, 2008 Submit construction permit application for post-transition facilities.

August 1, 2008 Move a portion of existing analog transmitter from commonly owned KPPX(TV), Tolleson, Arizona and KGPX(TV) Spokane, WA and convert existing transmitter to digital operation on Channel 22.

February 17, 2009 Terminate analog operations on Channel 22 and digital operations on Channel 4.

February 18, 2009 Begin digital operations on Channel 22. IMPLEMENT
FULL POST-TRANSITION OPERATIONS.

Note that it's going digital a day late. I don't see anything that says what happens to Salem, other than it seems to be going away. Falcon_77's spreadsheet flagged this one for later review, so something didn't fit. I've only been OTA for 6 weeks, and this one seemed odd from the start. TVFool shows 22 analog at 1700kW and -43 dBm with LOS, but I get ION analog better on most tvs from the Channel 54 booster, which doesn't even show on my TVFool list. I wondered if they'd already made some power/tower changes. Falcon's spreadsheet showed 22.1 moving up the tower, so with added height is it possible it can cover Salem? Is Salem really 1700kW now? That should blow that channel 54 booster out of the water on reception, and it does not. Guess I'll stay tuned.

Just a heads up to those who may not know, Lee Wood whose name graces the very first post of this thread was fired Friday from KOIN.

You can read more here; http://oregonmediainsiders.com/node/1562

I've worked in the Portland TV market for almost 29 years and this has got to be one of the strangest things I have ever heard of.

Lee, good luck to you and your family. While I don't know your personally my heart goes out to you and the other Chief Engineers.

Scott

Anyone elese getting a poor digital signal on Channel 6. It seems ironic that Lee got fired and the signal went to crap the same day. I am receiving at 55% and less. The blocking and dropouts are so bad I can't stand to watch it.

> ION will move back to UHF 22

And message #1 agrees. Does this mean they will transmit
channel 22 from Portland? What happens to channel 22 in Salem?

Yes, according to the Construction Permit, they will be broadcasting on 22 from Portland. If contours are to be believed, it will be enough to cover Salem. Here is the contour from the CP application exhibit:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=623211

If KOPB can be received in Salem now, then prospects look good for KPXG. I also checked the Post-Transition TV Fool plot for Salem and KPXG should be ok on 22. How difficult is it to receive KPXG on channel 4 right now?

As promised by PBS, daily HD version of the newshour started showing up on OPB (10.1) on Monday May 5th. It is broadcast at 4 PM (that would be 7 PM ET)!

Anyone else notice missing left and right channel volume in the HD broadcast of American Idol tonight?

Anyone else notice missing left and right channel volume in the HD broadcast of American Idol tonight?

I noticed it on the Seattle FOX HD station.

The whole country heard the awful mix on American Idol last night. How do these things happen near the end of the season on the #1 show?

Just a heads up to those who may not know, Lee Wood whose name graces the very first post of this thread was fired Friday from KOIN.

Scott, thanks for the update. Sorry when mergers mean downsizing. Good luck, Lee Wood, hope something comes along that makes work fun.

Falcon, thanks for the map shot of KPXG and clarification of what's happening. You have a talent in reading those FCC papers! I'm half way to Salem, using Terk HDTVa in garage attic. KPXG 22.1 (RF4) is strong but not totally steady. At least the rabbit ears are out of the way. There isn't a lot more terrain to interfere between here and Salem. Of course, the current Salem analog 22 KPXG brings in viewers beyond Portland's reach. I wonder what happens to them.

audioxcel, I didn't notice KOIN signal changes, but the guide/display info has been missing for a few days ago.

The local BiMart chain, as well as national chains KMart and Sears, are now listed by the NTIA as CECB retailers.

I'm having problems receiving the broadcast stations in my zip code 97124. I've tried 4 different indoor antennas, and am now trying a model DA-5200 antenna from Radio Shack (it's on their web site, I couldn't include the link since I don't have 3 posts yet). I have a Hauppauge HVR-1250 card in my PC, and pick up 22.1 ION, 10.1 KOPB-HD, 10.2 KOPB-SD, 10.3 Create, 10.4 OC, 12.1 KPTV, and 24.1-5 KNMT-D1-5. I pointed the antenna in the direction of the towers for KATU (ABC), KOIN (CBS), KGW (NBC), and KPDX (FOX). Even spoke to a tower expert at KOIN today for 30 minutes.

Any ideas on what my problem is? Do I need a YAGI antenna? I live in an apartment on the 1st floor. The KOIN expert said he laid a YAGI antenna on a chair at a friend's house, and they were able to pick up all signals. If I should get a YAGI antenna, any suggestions on which one?

Is anyone planning on attending OPB's "DTV Open House" ?
I probably will not be able to attend, but it would be nice to
find out if they have any plans to improve the quality.
(especially the compression artifacts)

http://www.opb.org/digital/events/

Is anyone planning on attending OPB's "DTV Open House" ?
I'd love to attend if it were really an open house. I'd love a tour of their facilities. But I suspect that there will just be a room full of frightened old people who are worrying about losing their favorite TV show. Which means there will doubtlessly be demonstrations of how to connect coax from CECBs to the antenna inputs of old TVs.

It would be interesting to challenge OPB on artifacts. Still, what could they tell you? It's not their engineers who decided to split their digital channel into 1 HD program plus 3 SD programs. How do you avoid artifacts in a situation like that? Do you think that a handful of nerds asking questions about compression artifacts would even be noticed by OPB management?

Maybe things will get better in 2009 when a digital SD channel can potentially be dropped (OPB would no longer need to simulcast their analog channel).

I see that BiMart and Fred Meyer are now selling CECBs according to the NTIA website. Both stores I called (Fred Meyer Interstate and BiMart 122nd and Halsey) were sold out but expected more soon. BiMart has the Zenith and Freddies has the Philco. BiMart said that they sell them as fast as they come in.

DigaDo, are they selling them any cheaper, or same price as everyone else?

Talking Rat,

I didn't ask, sorry.

> Do you think that a handful of nerds asking questions
> about compression artifacts would even be noticed by
> OPB management?

I don't know. But if no one complains, they definitely
aren't going to know that there are unhappy viewers.

Do you have a better idea?

> Maybe things will get better in 2009 when a digital SD
> channel can potentially be dropped (OPB would no longer
> need to simulcast their analog channel).

Given the amount of redundancy in programming, they could
shuffle things around and drop a channel. Then they would
only need 2 channels rather than 2.5 channels. Plenty of
spectrum will be available in VHF-LO.

Do you have a better idea?
Alas, no. I'm perhaps becoming too cynical.

Talking Rat,

Bi-Mart gets small Zenith shipments and these are sold out very quickly. I called several Bi-Mart stores on Monday. One had just received five Zeniths; the other stores were sold out. Then I visited that store where I bought the second to last remaining Zenith they had. This Zenith is for a relative. It is of March manufacture with a serial number in 601,xxx range. The Bi-Mart price for the Zenith is $49.99.

The Bi-Mart coupon sales procedure requires a sales clerk in the electronics department to use the phone and then key in the CECB card number and the three digit code number from the back and then scan the Zenith bar code. Then their printer creates a sticker that is placed on the CECB card and retained by Bi-Mart. Another clerk comes to override $40 of the price on the cash register. Then the customer pays the difference.

Earlier I had asked another Bi-Mart clerk if they had gotten any Zeniths of more recent manufacture than March. He mentioned that they had received some Zeniths of April manufacture but they were unable to sell them because of some problem and these were sent back.

Thanks for the BiMart news! It's a nice price, then. I may wait for the May batch to arrive, too bad April was no good. I am impatient for my second digital tv. Just two months ago, I thought analog looked pretty good.

This morning I spoke with the sales associate at my nearest Bi-Mart store. They are sold out of the Zenith CECBs. The associate said that they, as well as some other Bi-Mart locations, have started customer waiting lists.

The associate mentioned that a new (larger) order for Zeniths has been placed. The arrival date for these is unknown.

I hope that Bi-Mart realizes that the main demand for this product is in the more populated areas where digital broadcasting is already in operation; with little demand for this product in most remote communities served only by analog repeater and other low power analog stations. Bi-Mart has 56 locations in Oregon, 10 locations in Washington and one location in Idaho.

So what happened to the audio on KPDX channel 48 on
2008-05-03 and -04 ? The audio PID was missing.

Hmmm, no posts in 5 days? Is the forum down?
So what's the story on Lee Wood? Where is he going next?

We did turn quiet. Konrad2, I don't remember KPDX audio. It's my weakest channel, and we have had a fluctuating signal. The only audio loss was the "other" Fox, 12.1. They lost the L/R channel, it was just rumble.

The Zenith CECBs of April 2008 production are reported to have corrected the left channel sibilance and/or "chirping" found with some TV stations broadcasting 5.1 audio. This reportedly affects some Zenith or Insignia CECBs (of November 2007 through March 2008 production) when set to stereo (in the menu) and connected through the composite audio jacks.

In the Portland area I have not yet found a Zenith (or Insignia) of April 2008 production. The Circuit City stores have Zeniths of February or March production with newer shipments expected sometime soon. The few Radio Shack stores that have Zeniths have February or March production. Bi-Mart stores are sold out of Zeniths, possibly until late June or sometime in July. Standard TV and Appliance stores are sold out of Zeniths but have submitted a new order. Some Best Buy stores have a few Insignias, mostly of January or February production.

Zeniths come in a red and black box packed in a brown cardboard shipping box containing five converters. One end of the shipping box has windows for viewing the individual converter box stickers that show the model number and production code, the UPC, month and year of production, unit serial number, and associated bar codes.

If you visit a store without April Zeniths on display ask a salesperson to check the back-room stock shipping box windows for a Zenith with the April 2008 production date.

I have traded coupons/converters among my family. The remaining coupons expire 5/27/08.

But the Zenith box April dates seem to have other problems -- aspect ratio freezing things up. Edited to add -- the April problem seems resolved, caused by a tv's comb filter.

Today I found a few Zenith DTT900 CECBs of April 2008 production among the February and March Zenith CECB stock at the Circuit City on Hayden Island. Perhaps other area Circuit City stores are receiving April Zenith production as well.

Hmmm, no posts in 5 days? Is the forum down?
So what's the story on Lee Wood? Where is he going next?
He has gone to Fisher Communications (the parent of KATU) working on corporate projects.

Good to hear you landed a new job, Lee.

Will you remain in Portland?

Yes, good news about the job!

For the time being I will remain in Portland so I will be able to keep the first post updated as needed.

NTIA CECB Portland area retailer update:

The Vern Wenger store in the 5900 block of SW Beaverton Hillsdale Hwy is back on the list. They carry the Channel Master at $80.

Rite Aid Pharmacy is now on the list but they do not yet have converter boxes in stock or know the brand name, according to two stores called on 6/5/08.

Some of OPB's between show blurbs sound like
they are planning even more subchannels.

And it appears to be starting:

Stream contains 6 program(s).
Default program is 3.
Program 3: 10-1 KOPB-HD:
PID=0x31 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x34 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
Program 4: 10-2 KOPB-SD:
PID=0x41 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x44 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x45 Audio (MPEG-2), language = eng
PID=0x46 Audio (MPEG-2), language = spa
Program 5: 10-3 Create:
PID=0x51 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x54 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
Program 6: 10-4 OC:
PID=0x61 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x64 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
Program 7:
PID=0x7a Unknown (0x0b)
Program 8:
PID=0x8a Unknown (0x0b)

What the <bleep> are these people thinking?

KOPB 10.5 is now in audio test. Nothing on 10.6 yet. OPB is pretty basic PQ, so I like the idea of more program options for PBS.

ETA: the OPB site is asking for forum members to talk about content of any added channels.

KOPB 10.5 is now in audio test. Nothing on 10.6 yet. OPB is pretty basic PQ, so I like the idea of more program options for PBS.

ETA: the OPB site is asking for forum members to talk about content of any added channels.

I noticed that and was wondering what it is going to be. Is there a programming guide of what they will be broadcasting there?

Thx

OPB TV Focus Groups: Share your ideas about what channels and programs OPB should offer when TV goes all-digital next year. Sessions take place on July 8, 9 or 10. To sign up, call 800.241.8123 or e-mail focusgroups@opb.org.

The notice above is all I've seen. I haven't paid attention to between show chatter on OPB. Konrad2's post made me look. :D

I will be looking in August for NBC expansion of subchannels for Olympics coverage.

BiMart now has in the April production Zenith DTT901 at the $49.99 price. The Tigard store got 15 in this morning, after I left there were 12 left. I think the DTT901 has the analog pass through. I was going to wait for the Echostar DTVPal but decided to get what I could..

Thanks for the DTT901 tip, AlanP. The Tigard store did not get anything on the truck today, and don't take names. However, I found out that the Woodburn store (who also got nothing on the truck today) does take names, and reserves according to expiration date, which is a really kind way to do it. They have 19 on the wait, but if they get a shipment in Monday, I may get one (my expiration date). They usually get 5, got a double order last time, but with that long a wait list, you know they don't ever have them on the shelf.

I will be looking in August for NBC expansion of subchannels for Olympics coverage.So they can all look like crap? What a waste....


ron

Hey, just found this thread, (thanks DigaDo) and am looking for a DTT-901 here in the Portland area (I'm in Beaverton) like everyone else, before my coupon expires on 6/27.

With 4 BiMarts within driving distance of me, maybe there's a chance. The Tigard CC jerks are holding back on ordering 901's until they get rid of all their 900's, which could be forever. Besides their clerks are so full of crap that I'd rather avoid buying from them if I can.

I cannot get any analog stations that use the Salem tower here, like 22 and 32 - Bull Mountain blocks and makes a multipath mess of all the UHF channels from the southeast. But as long the DTV stations broadcast from the skyline ridge towers, I am OK. I'm at 400 feet elevation and about 6 miles line of site from all the red flashlights up on the ridge, with an outside yagi (VHF and UHF) pointed at them. My analog reception is completely ghost free and strong on all the analog channels. I doubt I'll see much improvement with DTV on my 20" set. But at least the audio will be an improvement.

I've only talked to the BiMart in my neighborhood (Woodstock), and they don't have any units in stock. Maybe next week, I was told.

Bull Mountain blocks and makes a multipath mess of all the UHF channels from the southeast. But as long the DTV stations broadcast from the skyline ridge towers, I am OK.

The Chehalem Mountains and Parrott Mountain may be major LOS obstructions for you as well.

The KOIN towers are located on the meandering offset section of Barnes Road on the south side of the cemetery just west of SW Skyline Blvd. See the satellite photo or street level view of the five towers at the KOIN facility at Google maps for 5500 SW Barnes Road, Portland, OR, 97221.

So they can all look like crap? What a waste....

ron


OTA broadcasts in CECB-converted SD look so much better than Comcast digital, it doesn't seem a waste to me at all. Until now I've only watched the Olympics in analog, so SD will be an improvement. I'm assuming at least 8.1 will stay HD. HD gives me a clearer picture, but if I had to choose between one HD or 1 HD plus 4 SD, I'd choose the latter.

I can see the point IF there were 4 SD channels of similar content as the single channel but more than half of what I have seen for content on the sub channels is either a repeat of one of the other channels or something as useful as 24 hour weather that is a repeat of some other feed not original content and then looped to repeat. That is a waste when viewing HD content is what I spent money for my equipment to do. Not many more useless channels.
nater

I can see the point IF there were 4 SD channels of similar content as the single channel but more than half of what I have seen for content on the sub channels is either a repeat of one of the other channels or something as useful as 24 hour weather that is a repeat of some other feed not original content and then looped to repeat. That is a waste when viewing HD content is what I spent money for my equipment to do. Not many more useless channels.
nater

I think the original poster was using the argument for more Olympics channels, not for useless weather and other nonsense that is often on these subchannels. For the Olympics, one could argue that content trumps quality. I don't, but one could.

OK, I agree with you crossbeaux. HD first.
I can understand the large amount of content that a sub channel might provide but quality is still more important than quantity.

nater

Just picked two DTT-901's at Beaverton Bi-Mart, on Western Ave.

Shipment just arrived today - they had a box of 5 left as of 7pm 6/24.

$49.99 - $40 coupon - $9.99/box

Forest Grove Bi-Mart had 5 on Friday -sold quickly.
Aloha Bi-Mart hoping for a shipment this week maybe by thursday.
Hillsboro Bi-Mart expecting shipment any day - get merchandise shipments 5 days a week. Keep calling.

Circuit City - screw you!

Just picked two DTT-901's at Beaverton Bi-Mart, on Western Ave.

Shipment just arrived today - they had a box of 5 left as of 7pm 6/24.

Is Bi-Mart selling April or May DTT901s?

I got April last night in Tigard store, 5 hours before coupon expiration. Tigard truck is usually unloaded by 2 pm, but yesterday they didn't expect to know until 6 pm, and by then they'd already sold 7. Woodburn truck had none Monday, although they may have got some today. The Tigard guy said they are in short supply -- the warehouse ordered 20,000 and they only got 2000. Whoever said CC was getting first dibs on the boxes, that seems to be true. Once BiMart gets full stock, CC will be sitting on that warehouse full of 901s.

Is Bi-Mart selling April or May DTT901s?

All April in this last shipment.

My folks live in Aloha and I've been trying to configure them for DTV conversion and it's been a bit of trouble. I'm hoping you may have some tips for me.

I picked up an RCA DTA800 from Walmart because it was one of the few that analog TiVo can control. Originally, we used rabbit ears and we would get a signal strength that would fluctuate between 15% and 30%, but occasionally (1 to 20 times during a 10 minute period) the signal would drop to 0%. The stuttering was more than my folks could stomach.

So, this weekend I picked up a slightly more expensive indoor/outdoor antenna from Radio Shack (DA-5200) that included a signal booster. With this in place, we get a signal strength that fluctuates between 50% and 61% but still, unfortunately, drops to 0% with some regularity. And, unfortunately, now we can't get the converter box to recongnize channel 2 (KATU) and that's the only source of ABC programming.

Since my folks are now camped out at my house to watch ABC, this has become urgent. My next step will likely be to place this antenna on the roof to see if it does any better. Failing that, it goes back to Radio Shack and I throw more money randomly at the problem to buy a progressively spendier antenna.

To recap...

Too much breaking up of picture... picture without sound... or sound without picture
Frequent sudden drop to 0% signal and back up to 60%
Can't get KATU

Thanks in advance for any advice on changes to their system. If I have to swap out this antenna, any recommendations would be greatly appreciated but the smaller the monstrocity I have to wrestle with on the roof the better. I was hoping to make the DA-5200 work because it's about the size and shape of a paperback book.

Thanks again!
-- Don

Too much breaking up of picture... picture without sound... or sound without picture
Frequent sudden drop to 0% signal and back up to 60%
Can't get KATU


Are they near any traffic? The multipath bouncing off of large vehicles can send the signal quality to 0%. A better antenna can improve this. Actually 60% is very marginal reception to begin with.

My folks live in Aloha and I've been trying to configure them for DTV conversion and it's been a bit of trouble. I'm hoping you may have some tips for me.

I picked up an RCA DTA800 from Walmart because it was one of the few that analog TiVo can control. Originally, we used rabbit ears and we would get a signal strength that would fluctuate between 15% and 30%, but occasionally My next step will likely be to place this antenna on the roof to see if it does any better. Failing that, it goes back to Radio Shack and I throw more money randomly at the problem to buy a progressively spendier antenna.

One would think that reception in Aloha would be very good since it's mostly a flat area and line-of-sight to the broadcast towers along Skyline Blvd.

Perhaps the next step to consider is to exchange the RCA. RCA specific discussions are found in this and a few other threads:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=934600

I'm located in the other direction, about three blocks east of the PCC Cascade Campus in North Portland, line-of-sight and about five miles from the broadcast towers. I have two Zenith DTT901 models and one DTT900, all with cheap indoor antennas:

1-RCA ANT111 (about $10 at Best Buy and several other stores)
2-Philips SDV2270/17 (about $15 at Fred Meyer and several other stores)
3-a standard size #1 paper clip, unfolded and inserted into the RF input ($2.99 for a box of 1,000 at Staples, $3.99 for a box of 1,000 at Office Depot)

Results are about equal between all these "antennas," 23 channels, most with very good signal strength. The 22.1, 22.2, 22.3, 22.4 group of subchannels, and 49.1 sometimes have fluctuating or weak signals but that may change in February.

Anybody else experiencing lip sync problems on 8.1?

I notice that via DirecTV, it is fine. I would think they would take Ch 8's ATSC feed and transcode to MPEG4 and that if the lip sync was wrong at the station then DirecTV would be off also.

My sound is via HDMI routed through my Denon 3808CI AVR.

I experience it a lot. Both from Dish and OTA transmissions. It has been happening off and on for the last year. Sometimes just a little off and other times way off.

Steve

Also have it on FiOS on both the regular channel as well as the HD channel.

Are they near any traffic? The multipath bouncing off of large vehicles can send the signal quality to 0%. A better antenna can improve this. Actually 60% is very marginal reception to begin with.
They live about 3 blocks from a major residential street. Would that be close enough to make a difference?
Perhaps the next step to consider is to exchange the RCA.
I'm definitely open to that, but given that we can get channel 2 fine with the rabbit ears using the RCA, I'm tending to blame the antenna (or my placement of it).
I'm located in the other direction, about three blocks east of the PCC Cascade Campus in North Portland, line-of-sight and about five miles from the broadcast towers. I have two Zenith DTT901 models and one DTT900, all with cheap indoor antennas:

1-RCA ANT111 (about $10 at Best Buy and several other stores)
2-Philips SDV2270/17 (about $15 at Fred Meyer and several other stores)
3-a standard size #1 paper clip, unfolded and inserted into the RF input ($2.99 for a box of 1,000 at Staples, $3.99 for a box of 1,000 at Office Depot)

Results are about equal between all these "antennas," 23 channels, most with very good signal strength. The 22.1, 22.2, 22.3, 22.4 group of subchannels, and 49.1 sometimes have fluctuating or weak signals but that may change in February.
Wow, that's encouraging! Do your receivers show signal strength as a percentage? What are you typically seeing? Since this is my first converter box I didn't know what to expect, which is why I assumed 60% wasn't bad. I think the RCA ANT111 is very likely what they had (previously) since we bought it at Best Buy.

Thanks for your help.
-- Don

Do your receivers show signal strength as a percentage? What are you typically seeing?

The Zeniths have a bar showing relative signal strength from bad to good and audible beeps that become faster/slower as the signal strength increases/decreases. Most of the time the stations are showing signal strength in what I would say is the 80-90% range. Down around the 55-60% range there are a few dropouts and down in the 40-50% range there is wide fluctuation or loss of picture and sound. Once that happens the screen goes black with a "NO SIGNAL" box but the signal strength bar may still show some signal.

Other posters in the CECB threads have pointed out that signal strength indicators are less actual than relative, i.e., by swapping boxes of different brands with the same antenna orientation on the same channel one brand may show 85% while another brand may show 75% but reception quality is very nearly the same, and both brands may exhibit dropouts at the same point when the antenna is disoriented.

There was a time that having KGW announce they were going to show the local 4th of July fireworks in HD, for the first time, would have resulted in multiple comments. Not just about the content but that we are seeing locally produced HD here in Portland.

HD has arrived. :)

There was a time that having KGW announce they were going to show the local 4th of July fireworks in HD, for the first time, would have resulted in multiple comments. Not just about the content but that we are seeing locally produced HD here in Portland.

HD has arrived. :)

Maybe the Starlight and Rose parades in HD damped the enthusiasm. :) Now if only KGW can find a way to seemlessly get audio in sync with video on network programming when switching from local production.

I do have to give props to KGW for their HD adventurism. Nice to have a leader.

I have got the DTVPal CECB that is supposed to be capable of populating the old-style analog 'TV Guide On Screen' in my DVR from the new digital TVGOS.

I have attempted to set it up and was not successful. My experiment is described here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14219064#post14219064

It has been suggested that the digital TVGOS may not be yet transmitted by our CBS affiliate (KOIN-DT, in our case). Gemstar (the TVGOS company) is now owned by CBS, the old analog TVGOS is transmitted by KOPB, but the new digital one should come from CBS.

Has anyone been successful in setting up digital TVGOS? Note that it is not the same as the program guide data transmitted by each station.

Does anybody know if KOIN is transmitting the digital TVGOS data?

Thanks.

Maybe the Starlight and Rose parades in HD damped the enthusiasm. :) Now if only KGW can find a way to seemlessly get audio in sync with video on network programming when switching from local production.

I do have to give props to KGW for their HD adventurism. Nice to have a leader.They still have some work to do. :)
One of their three HD cameras looked better than the other two, but they were all pretty soft.
Still, good enough I watched the entire show.

So, this weekend I picked up a slightly more expensive indoor/outdoor antenna from Radio Shack (DA-5200) that included a signal booster. With this in place, we get a signal strength that fluctuates between 50% and 61% but still, unfortunately, drops to 0% with some regularity. And, unfortunately, now we can't get the converter box to recongnize channel 2 (KATU) and that's the only source of ABC programming.

Today I took the DA-5200 to the rooftop to see if I could get a better signal. It was only marginally better at 67% so I decided it wasn't worth mounting up there. We did, however, get channel 2 back. It's pretty much luck of the draw... the first time I re-ran channel setup I got back 2 but lost 6, so I ran it again immediately and both were found. So I'm no longer associating our problem finding channel 2 with this antenna. It was just bad luck at the moment I went hunting for channels.

My folks are reporting intermittant trouble with channel 6. Sometimes they get sound but no picture, sometimes picture with no sound, sometimes both breaking up, sometimes nothing at all. The next step for us is to try another antenna.

I'm assuming there's only value in looking at outdoor antennas at this point, so somebody set me straight if I should be looking into something for the attic. Best Buy doesn't carry outdoor antennas. I think I'm out of options at Radio Shack. My next stops will likely be Video Only or Standard TV, but I have no idea what they carry since they don't put their inventory on their website. Otherwise, the Antennas Direct DB4 Multi Directional HDTV Antenna up on Amazon looks like a good option... but I'd much rather pick from a local store so I won't have the hassle and expense of shipping if I need to return it.

Does anyone in the greater Portland metro area have an antenna worth raving about? Let me know so I can buy one, too.

Thanks,
-- Don

I'm assuming there's only value in looking at outdoor antennas at this point, so somebody set me straight if I should be looking into something for the attic. Best Buy doesn't carry outdoor antennas. I think I'm out of options at Radio Shack. My next stops will likely be Video Only or Standard TV, but I have no idea what they carry since they don't put their inventory on their website. Otherwise, the Antennas Direct DB4 Multi Directional HDTV Antenna up on Amazon looks like a good option... but I'd much rather pick from a local store so I won't have the hassle and expense of shipping if I need to return it.

Does anyone in the greater Portland metro area have an antenna worth raving about? Let me know so I can buy one, too.

Thanks,
-- Don

Well you might want to take on trip back to Radio Shack and ask for a U-75R for $30 and the "not include, but still required" 300ohm to 75 ohm balun/transformer #15-114 for $5

U-75R:
hxxp://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&parentPage=family

15-114:
hxxp://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103912&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032207&pg=1&searchSort=TRUE&retainProdsInSession=1&y=8&x=5&s=A-StorePrice-RSK&parentPage=family

Note: I haven't made my 3-post minimum to post hyperlinks yet.
So just copy and paste from the "www." forward.

I've done both attic (8.5mi) and outside (15mi) with these and for DTV they really do the job.

For $35 its hard to beat as an outdoor antenna.

Also to note this antenna is weak at receiving VHF Ch.8 (forget VHF 2-6) so it might have problems post-switchover in 2009 but I'm using these at 8.5 miles and 15 miles from the broadcast towers.
However this will be no different from the DB-4 you were talking about since it will be affected by the same problem.

Reminder: Digital Ch2 and 6 are on UHF 43 and 40 and will stay there. Only Ch. 8 will be affected with this problem after Feb. 2009.

It has been suggested that the digital TVGOS may not be yet transmitted by our CBS affiliate (KOIN-DT, in our case). Gemstar (the TVGOS company) is now owned by CBS, the old analog TVGOS is transmitted by KOPB, but the new digital one should come from CBS.

Has anyone been successful in setting up digital TVGOS? Note that it is not the same as the program guide data transmitted by each station.

Does anybody know if KOIN is transmitting the digital TVGOS data?

Thanks.

It was not suggested so much as confirmed previously in this very thread that KOIN did not get the TVGOS as they were not a CBS affiliate (agreement not renewed) at the time of the decision/announcement.

As it was discusses for entire pages before, KOIN is not broadcasting TVGOS.

The entire thing is in this thread but farther back. Go and look, then come back.

I have been reading this thread and forum for a good 2 years now and have not felt the need to post 'till today. Alot of questions are already answered, people just need to search for a few minutes.

> I'm assuming there's only value in looking at outdoor antennas
> at this point, so somebody set me straight if I should be looking
> into something for the attic.

Yes, an "outdoor" antenna is more directional than an "indoor" antenna,
providing a better signal (stronger, less multipath, less interference).
You can put "outdoor" antennas in an attic if there is room. An attic
installation doesn't need to be grounded. An outdoor installation
MUST be grounded.

After 2009-02-17 we will not need VHF-LO, only VHF-HI and UHF.
Seperate antennas have better performance than combos.

Consider PR-8800, CM 4228, DB-8, XG-91 for UHF;
YA-1713 or Y10-7-13 for VHF-HI.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w8800.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB8.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html

http://www.winegard.com
http://www.channelmaster.com
http://www.antennacraft.net

http://www.solidsignal.com
http://www.starkelectronic.com
http://www.summitsource.com
http://www.warrenelectronics.com

A good antenna probably doesn't need a preamp. Try it without at first.
If you do need one, go with the low gain Winegard HDP-269. Too much
gain and you'll overload the tuner(s), making reception worse rather
than better.

You can get weatherproof (*) RG6 quad shield coax with connecters already
attached at Lowes. Lowes and Home Depot carry some mounting hardware.

(*) Even so you'll need to replace the outdoor portion of the coax
every few years.

---

} Well you might want to take on trip back to Radio Shack

Be aware that antennas from Radio Shack do not enjoy a good reputation.

} Reminder: Digital Ch2 and 6 are on UHF 43 and 40 and will stay there.
} Only Ch. 8 will be affected with this problem after Feb. 2009.

After 2009-02-17 we will have 3 stations on VHF-HI: 8 (NBC), 10 (PBS),
and 12 (Fox). The rest will be UHF.

Anybody else experiencing lip sync problems on 8.1?


Update: Audio sync has been just fine for the last few days.

=snip=

---

} Well you might want to take on trip back to Radio Shack

Be aware that antennas from Radio Shack do not enjoy a good reputation.



} Reminder: Digital Ch2 and 6 are on UHF 43 and 40 and will stay there.
} Only Ch. 8 will be affected with this problem after Feb. 2009.

After 2009-02-17 we will have 3 stations on VHF-HI: 8 (NBC), 10 (PBS),
and 12 (Fox). The rest will be UHF.

RS antennas seem to bear bullseye here on AVS to be shot down simply for being from RS. Excuse me for not telling him to chuck money out $70 for a Channel Master 4228, I mean who wants to struggle with a 15 lb. metal grid 8+ feet above the ground.
I mean no 3 lb Yagi-corner-reflector can be of any use to anyone can it?</sarcasm>
Look we had 50mph winds last winter, both of mine survived that.

True, We will have 3 VHF-Hi stations using ATSC

From my experience a UHF will do but I speak only for less 16 miles.
I made sure to get a decent clearing to aim my antennas through to aim at Skyline Blvd.
UHF antennas do generally have positive gain 'till VHF Ch. 10.

Ch. 14 = +14.5 dBi
Ch. 12 = +3 dBi
Ch. 10 = +6 dBi
Ch. 9 = -2 dBi
Ch. 8 = -4 dBi

For the sake of simplicity the only channel here in Portland that UHF antenna owners will have to worry about post transition is Ch. 8

Sources:
hxxp://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
hxxp://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/GainVHFnetUHF.gif

...As it was discusses for entire pages before, KOIN is not broadcasting TVGOS.
...
I have been reading this thread and forum for a good 2 years now and have not felt the need to post 'till today...

I am sorry to have brought you out of hibernation :) But I do appreciate the reply, thanks.

I have found the relevant message, but it was posted five months ago! Things could have changed since. DTV is in transition, after all.

I can't believe such a large market as PDX would be left without TVGOS permanently. My converter box manual lists substitute codes for the digital TVGOS setup and Portland is there!

Does anyone in the greater Portland metro area have an antenna worth raving about? Let me know so I can buy one, too.

Thanks,
-- Don

Don,

I’m still of the opinion that the problem might be with the RCA converter box itself. Is there someone in Aloha getting good converter box reception? Try out your RCA there or try out their converter box at your parent’s house.

My Zenith DTT900 gets good reception in North Portland with just a paper clip for an antenna. If you would like to try out the RCA here or borrow the Zenith (and the paper clip) PM me for more information.

While shopping at Fred Meyer yesterday I noticed a lone Philco converter box sitting under a display model HDTV. The handsome Philco white plastic box, without ventilation slots, looked more like a toy when picked up and examined. A sales clerk soon appeared with a sales pitch. I inquired if they had any of these Philcos in stock. With some coaxing the clerk said they had around a hundred in stock but kept in the back room for "security reasons." Upon further reflection I think that Freddie's keeps them back so the Home Electronics cashiers--that have been trained on the NTIA card acceptance procedures--may handle the transaction. Perhaps the general and self service check out cashiers have not been trained how to process the NTIA cards.

Without adequate ventilation perhaps the Philco converter boxes (and other Funai-built converter boxes like the Magnavox) will have a short life. Then the customer will return to buy a real TV with a digital or HD tuner. Smart, very smart. Golly, isn't that the Magnavox slogan?

Without adequate ventilation perhaps the Philco converter boxes (and other Funai-built converter boxes like the Magnavox) will have a short life.

Actually as the new converters draw about 5 watts when running, and less than 1 watt when "off" it may be that they don't need any ventilation. Though I notice the Zenith box does have some minimal vent holes in it...

Magnolia Audio Video at 11975 SW Canyon Road, Beaverton, has now appeared on the NTIA converter box vendor list. I called Magnolia this evening. The fellow answering the phone was unsure if they had converter boxes but asked someone else. He reported that they had two, Zenith, he said.

I recently bought a digital converter box and I noticed that OPB broadcasts their radio signal on 10-5. Why would they sacrifice bandwidth to create an audio-only subchannel that duplicates what you can already get on the radio?

> OPB broadcasts their radio signal on 10-5. Why would they
> sacrifice bandwidth to create an audio-only subchannel that
> duplicates what you can already get on the radio?

Someone at OPB must think that you can cram an infinite amount
of subchannels into a single ATSC channel. An audio-only
subchannel doesn't take that much bandwidth, but attempting to
have 4 video subchannels creates massive compression artifacts.

------------

The other day one of their shows had a significant red/magenta
tint. Screwed up color isn't just for analog anymore.

I really like extra audio only channel.

As was pointed out already this only takes a small amount of bandwidth and allows you to use a PVR to record some of the radio shows you might miss otherwise. For example, I enjoy NPR Science Friday but it falls at a time I would not normally be able to listen. I currently do not have a programable recorder connected to a radio, but I can now get this capability using my existing hardware.

I chalk this all up to experimenting with DTV to see what works and what does not. If they are going to experiment isn't this the time to be doing it? However, I do hope they reconsider the total number of video channels they broadcast so that they can maintain at least one true HD quality signal for Nature, Nova, etc. Those do carry enough bandwidth to start eating into the video quality.

It is't as useless to me as 10-1 and 10-2 carrying duplicate programming.

I wonder if they will summarize the results of last week's focus groups, on programming post transition.

I really like extra audio only channel.

As was pointed out already this only takes a small amount of bandwidth and allows you to use a PVR to record some of the radio shows you might miss otherwise. For example, I enjoy NPR Science Friday but it falls at a time I would not normally be able to listen. I currently do not have a programable recorder connected to a radio, but I can now get this capability using my existing hardware.

I chalk this all up to experimenting with DTV to see what works and what does not. If they are going to experiment isn't this the time to be doing it? However, I do hope they reconsider the total number of video channels they broadcast so that they can maintain at least one true HD quality signal for Nature, Nova, etc. Those do carry enough bandwidth to start eating into the video quality.

Thanks. That makes sense. However, what doesn't make sense for me is dropping their radio reading service for the blind that was on SAP because (for one reason) SAP is going away and then almost immediately providing an audio-only outlet for their radio signal on digital TV (the thing they said couldn't accomodate their radio reading service). I admit, I'm a disgruntled former volunteer.

KGW is doing a DTV test this Friday, the 18th, during the 6:00pm news. They will be switching off their analog feed for the test.

http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_071608_technology_dtv_test.5f873f60.html

KGW pulls plug to test viewer readiness for DTV

04:12 PM PDT on Wednesday, July 16, 2008

By FRANK MUNGEAM, Kgw.com Staff

KGW NewsChannel 8 is "pulling the plug" to help viewers find out if their TV is ready for the conversion to Digital TV.

On Friday, July 18th during the 6 pm newcast, KGW will briefly turn off its analog signal.

Viewers with a TV ready for DTV will continue to see KGW's digital signal. Viewers with TV sets not yet converted for DTV will see only "snow" during this 10-second test.

During the 6 pm newscast, KGW Business Reporter Joe Smith will turn off our Analog Transmitter on Channel 8. A few moments later, he will turn it back on. There will be two monitors next to Joe that will show the picture on KGW digital and KGW analog. The digital will remain on, but the analog will go off.

Viewers who are receiving an analog signal will only see “snow” when the transmitter is turned off. Unless they (or their cable operator) takes action before the conversion to ditigal in February, they could lose their TV signal.

Immediately following the test, Joe Smith will review the actions consumers can take to insure they are able to receive a TV signal after the mandatory February 17, 2009 conversion to digital transmission.

Glad they are doing this. A lot of people are completely surprised that digital tv is already here. Even though our local stations say HD, people think that's something pay tv is bringing them. Those hundreds of Feb 17 ads have said nothing about digital tv already being here and broadcasting at full power in many areas. If people realized that, they would want to be get started ASAP.

I helped my next door neighbor, a lady in her mid-80's, hook up her digital converter box. She had some ratty old rabbit ears on her TV, and I was a little worried about reception. But where we are, SE Portland, the box (a Digital Stream) was able to pull in everything. She has thanked me profusely at least three times because the picture is so much better than it was before, and she gets so many more stations. So, I'll bet a lot of people will be pleasantly surprised when they finally go digital.

I noticed during the test on a digital TV the audio sync went way out of whack. Did they continue to send studio audio from the analog feed? Hope that doesn't send people with converters off the deep end thinking audio will forever be screwed up. Then again, KGWDT audio isn't the best model. :rolleyes:

I noticed the audio sync problem too. Plus that guy was telling people who had analog what they would need to do, before he restored the analog broadcast. If you lost this broadcast, you need to... -- so maybe they kept the audio feed for the analog, and that's what messed things up. Otherwise, that would be pretty dumb, to explain what they need to do before they were back. :p

Well you might want to take on trip back to Radio Shack and ask for a U-75R for $30 and the "not include, but still required" 300ohm to 75 ohm balun/transformer #15-114 for $5

meinename, DigaDo, and Konrad2 - Thanks to all of you for your suggestions. I went with the U-75R and installed it last weekend. My folks have lived with it for a week and have reported nearly flawless reception. It was actually less expensive than the antenna we returned!

I installed it directly onto an old satellite mount that was pre-existing when they bought the house, which concerned me because it's pretty low to the roofline. The lowest point of the antenna sits only a half inch above the shingles.

FWIW, the RCA is reporting a signal strength that fluctuates between 58% and 72% - but these fluctuations are gradual and the signal remains steady. No more sudden / frequent drops to 0% and back up again. What I'm discovering is that a steady signal is much more important than a strong one.

My next task will be to split the antenna and send signal to a 2nd TV. I assume I'll need some sort of amplifying gizmo.

Thanks again for your help.

the Zenith is reporting a signal strength that fluctuates between 58% and 72% - but these fluctuations are gradual and the signal remains steady. No more sudden / frequent drops to 0% and back up again. What I'm discovering is that a steady signal is much more important than a strong one.

I'm glad things are working out better now. But I'm curious, did you give up on the RCA and get a Zenith?

My neighborhood Rite-Aid store is selling two DTV converter boxes. One was this here "Memorex brand" DTV converter (http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Memorex_MVCB1000.html) and the other one I don't remember what it was. They were $60 and they had about six of them.

My neighborhood Rite-Aid store is selling two DTV converter boxes. One was this here "Memorex brand" DTV converter (http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/Memorex_MVCB1000.html) and the other one I don't remember what it was. They were $60 and they had about six of them.

The Rite Aid stores I've visited are selling the Access HD 1010D. The Memorex has analog pass through, a useful feature, whereas the Access HD 1010D does not have that feature.

I'm glad things are working out better now. But I'm curious, did you give up on the RCA and get a Zenith?
Oops. Nope. I misspoke. We stuck with the RCA. I'll edit my post above.
-- Don

The Rite Aid stores I've visited are selling the Access HD 1010D. The Memorex has analog pass through, a useful feature, whereas the Access HD 1010D does not have that feature.

Yeah, that was the other one.

What is analog pass through? Is that what they call stereo RCA connectors these days?

Yeah, that was the other one.

What is analog pass through? Is that what they call stereo RCA connectors these days?

Analog pass through allows continuing reception of analog broadcast signals from full power stations and from low power (LP) community (CA) and translator stations (that rebroadcast regular broadcast stations to distant communities and have the local broadcast channel number in the midst of the translator station call letters). Most or some of the LP, CA or translator stations may continue broadcasting analog signals after February 17, 2009. For these reasons converter boxes with analog pass through have special value for those residing in remote or rural areas.

As examples, here is a list of the dozens of OPB analog, digital, and translator TV stations (some of which are actually located in Washington State):

http://www.opb.org/television/?mode=findChannel

Converter boxes implement analog pass through in different ways. Some Magnavox and Philco models implement analog pass through from a menu and the converter box remains on. This method of implementation is regarded as awkward by some users. Other analog pass through converter boxes, such as the Zenith DTT901 and its newly announced Insignia twin (with the model number ending in "APT"), pass through the analog signals when the converter box is turned off, pardon me, I guess the correct modern term is "standby." Once the analog pass through is implemented one uses the TV (or time-shifting device) tuner to access the analog channels as before.

I need to find some way to get a better singal from my Antenna. I live in Gresham, almost in Boring and antennaweb tells me I am in the yellow zone which is a small multi directional antenna. Well that doesn't work at all.

So I have a medium, directional antenna with a pre amp (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC7777&xzoom=Large#xview)(all channelmaster). I can get channels tuned in really well 99% of the time. But when I try to split it, shows cut out a lot. It's unwatchable really. I have the antenna pointed for best reception.

I am talking HD here. I have used the dual OTA tuner on a Direct Tivo box and recently on a HDhomerun(dual tuner) for my HTPC.
I have the antenna in my attic currently as i'm not going up on my roof. Long ways up and i'm not quite sure if my ladder would reach anyways.

Is there any way to get a better signal from this antenna/pre-amp so I can split it for dual HD tuners? At this point budget is very much an issue so i'm trying to do this cheap. Perhaps some sort of a distrubution amplifer?

Analog pass through allows continuing reception of analog broadcast signals from full power stations and from low power (LP) community (CA) and translator stations (that rebroadcast regular broadcast stations to distant communities and have the local broadcast channel number in the midst of the translator station call letters). Most or some of the LP, CA or translator stations may continue broadcasting analog signals after February 17, 2009. For these reasons converter boxes with analog pass through have special value for those residing in remote or rural areas.

So it's more like "RF pass through".

I'm surprised that they didn't have the converter boxes decode NTSC because all the ATSC demodulator chips I've seen have NTSC (and MTS audio) demodulation in them. All the video stuff to display NTSC is already in there of course so it had to have been intentionally left out for some reason.

> I have the antenna in my attic

What type of material is the antenna "looking" through?
Asphalt shingles? Slate? Tile? Metal? Wood clapboard
gable?

If the antenna is "looking" through a metal roof or metal
siding, the signal strength will be *greatly* attenuated.
If the antenna is looking through thick dense material
(slate roof, a brick wall, etc.) the signal strength will
be attenuated. Asphalt shingles or wood clapboards
shouldn't be too bad. I have good signal strength with
my antennas looking through a wood clapboard gable.

There will be more attenuation at higher frequencies.
Do you have more problems with KPDX (digital on channel 48)
and KGW (digital on channel 46) than with KPXG (digital on
channel 4) or KOPB (digital on channel 27).

If you are getting a lot of attenuation from building materials
you might need to put your antennas outside.

> I have a medium, directional antenna

A higher gain antenna will give you more signal strength.
(and less multipath, less interference) You are better off
with a higher gain antenna than adding another amp. Amps
cannot help with multipath or interference, and can overload.
The 7777 is already adding a lot of gain.

Standard recommendations from the antenna thread:

Consider PR-8800, CM 4228, DB-8, XG-91 for UHF;
YA-1713 or Y10-7-13 for VHF-HI.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w8800.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB8.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html

http://www.winegard.com
http://www.channelmaster.com
http://www.antennacraft.net

http://www.solidsignal.com
http://www.starkelectronic.com
http://www.summitsource.com
http://www.warrenelectronics.com

> when I try to split it, shows cut out a lot.

A good quality 2 way splitter reduces signal strength by 3.5 dB.
(more for 3-way, 4-way ...) If a 3.5 dB loss is killing your signal
you don't have much safety margin.

Do your analogs have a lot of snow?

I believe the 7777 has an FM trap. Turning the trap on will help
reduce interference.

> Perhaps some sort of a distrubution amplifer?

If you are *certain* it is a signal strength problem, a
distribution amplifer should help, but I'd upgrade the antennas
first.

> So it's more like "RF pass through".

Right. Just like VCRs, except the CECB doesn't record, so
there doesn't have to be an internal 2-way splitter. They
could use a relay instead and save 3.5 dB of signal strength.

> I'm surprised that they didn't have the converter boxes decode
> NTSC because all the ATSC demodulator chips I've seen have NTSC
> (and MTS audio) demodulation in them. All the video stuff to
> display NTSC is already in there of course so it had to have
> been intentionally left out for some reason.

IIRC the CECB rules disallow NTSC reception. Which is really
stupid, since these will be using recent chips that probably
have better reception than the TVs they will be used with.

Was OPB digital 27 off the air early this morning (2:30-3am)?

My log shows signal strength = 0 signal quality = 0.
Normally strength=100% quality=90%. It was normal
last evening, and is back to normal again today.

> I have the antenna in my attic

What type of material is the antenna "looking" through?
Asphalt shingles? Slate? Tile? Metal? Wood clapboard
gable?

If the antenna is "looking" through a metal roof or metal
siding, the signal strength will be *greatly* attenuated.
If the antenna is looking through thick dense material
(slate roof, a brick wall, etc.) the signal strength will
be attenuated. Asphalt shingles or wood clapboards
shouldn't be too bad. I have good signal strength with
my antennas looking through a wood clapboard gable.

There will be more attenuation at higher frequencies.
Do you have more problems with KPDX (digital on channel 48)
and KGW (digital on channel 46) than with KPXG (digital on
channel 4) or KOPB (digital on channel 27).

If you are getting a lot of attenuation from building materials
you might need to put your antennas outside.

> I have a medium, directional antenna

A higher gain antenna will give you more signal strength.
(and less multipath, less interference) You are better off
with a higher gain antenna than adding another amp. Amps
cannot help with multipath or interference, and can overload.
The 7777 is already adding a lot of gain.

Standard recommendations from the antenna thread:

Consider PR-8800, CM 4228, DB-8, XG-91 for UHF;
YA-1713 or Y10-7-13 for VHF-HI.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w8800.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB8.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html

http://www.winegard.com
http://www.channelmaster.com
http://www.antennacraft.net

http://www.solidsignal.com
http://www.starkelectronic.com
http://www.summitsource.com
http://www.warrenelectronics.com

> when I try to split it, shows cut out a lot.

A good quality 2 way splitter reduces signal strength by 3.5 dB.
(more for 3-way, 4-way ...) If a 3.5 dB loss is killing your signal
you don't have much safety margin.

Do your analogs have a lot of snow?

I believe the 7777 has an FM trap. Turning the trap on will help
reduce interference.

> Perhaps some sort of a distrubution amplifer?

If you are *certain* it is a signal strength problem, a
distribution amplifer should help, but I'd upgrade the antennas
first.

my roof has shingles on it.

I have never tuned analog with it. I don't even have the means to. My current tuners are HD only.
Most of my problems are with KGW. KOIN and FOX tend to be my best and KATU is pretty good.
Signal is good with using only one tuner, rarely gives me problems. When using two tuners it cuts out alot. Pausing, grabled, etc. Sometimes I can watch a whole program though, not always.
Signal does vary. Sometimes it's better than others. You'd think I had tall trees in my front yard and the swaying would cause the signal to come and go. But I have no trees. of that height. The nearest ones are quite a ways away. I'd say 1/4 of a mile.

We also get bad cell signals here. No matter the provider or the phone. Signal and be great one minute and gone the next.

The antenna I have is a huge channelmaster. I don't remember the model number off hand. It looks kinda like this one, but a wee bit bigger: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANCM4308


EDIT - I just hooked up my HDhomerun again to my HTPC(haven't used it since Feb.) and the reception is a bit better. Maybe the stations have boosted their signals since then. But the channels are tuning any better. So far there hasen't been a single issue. But I have several shows set to record to test it.
Media Center shows i'm only getting 2 bars out of 5 per channel. I'd like to get that up if I can. Maybe something like this?http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=CM3410

So, I'm sure this has been asked around 1000 times, but could anyone point me in the direction of a good antenna.

I'm in Beaverton, around 5-6 miles from the towers, I live in a three story townhome, and my only barrier to LOS is another 3 story townhome across the street. I picked up a Radio Shack brand antenna that I'm less then thrilled with.

My HDHomerun is reporting around 70-100% Signal strength, but only around 40-60% signal quality. (on the channels that work) My biggest problems are KATU, KOIN, and KRCW. It takes a near act of god to get my system to recognize KATU and KOIN at all.

In any event, I'd like to stick with an indoor antenna, although I'm not totally against an attic one (although that would require some fancy wiring on my part)

I'm hoping someone can point me in the correct direction and forgive my noobness.

Thanks in advance.

So, I'm sure this has been asked around 1000 times, but could anyone point me in the direction of a good antenna.

What antenna are you using right now? There are lots of good antennas that will just not work for you.

What antenna are you using right now? There are lots of good antennas that will just not work for you.
I'm currently using a cheap Radio Shack antenna. The stations that do come in seem to come in visually well even with this, however the lack of several stations and the fact that my signal quality is around 50% has me questing for a better solution.

I'm currently using a cheap Radio Shack antenna.

Radio Shack sells many cheap antennas. Which one are you using?

Radio Shack sells many cheap antennas. Which one are you using?
I didn't buy it myself... but after checking out their site. It looks like I have the
Model: 15-1878

So, I'm sure this has been asked around 1000 times, but could anyone point me in the direction of a good antenna.

I'm in Beaverton, around 5-6 miles from the towers, I live in a three story townhome, and my only barrier to LOS is another 3 story townhome across the street. I picked up a Radio Shack brand antenna that I'm less then thrilled with.

My HDHomerun is reporting around 70-100% Signal strength, but only around 40-60% signal quality. (on the channels that work) My biggest problems are KATU, KOIN, and KRCW. It takes a near act of god to get my system to recognize KATU and KOIN at all.

In any event, I'd like to stick with an indoor antenna, although I'm not totally against an attic one (although that would require some fancy wiring on my part)

I'm hoping someone can point me in the correct direction and forgive my noobness.

Thanks in advance.

You might take a look at the Silver Sensor indoor antenna. When I lived in Aloha, it worked excellent. Since I moved to Battle Ground it still picks up a pretty descent signal. Usaually takes a little tweeking for each station but works great for an indoor antenna even at my distance. Fry's was selling them. Not sure if they still do. Radio Shack used to sell a small indoor bow-tie antenna that also worked excellent but they stopped carrying them 4 or 5 years ago. If you could find a used one, it works as well as the Silver Sensor.

Steve

I have that one. It's sitting in a closet. At my location there was just too much multipath for a simple UHF loop. I switched to a small UHF yagi which Radio Shack doesn't sell any more and put it in my attic. Since I'm also pretty close to the towers, I had to remove most of the outer elements so it wouldn't be so directional (it would pick up one of the two clusters of towers but not both). It was still directional enough to eliminate the multipath fortunately.

You might want to try Radio Shack's bow tie antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062017&cp=) although it won't work very well when three stations switch back to VHF next year.

Should we still be recommending UHF-only antennas now like the Silver Sensor? I've found that my UHF yagi works fine for VHF stations but I'm in a good location.

Thanks for the advice guys... What's quickly becoming clear is that while there are options that tend to work better or worse, the most important thing to look for when trying out antennas is a good return policy.. *grin*

Thanks again.

Thanks for the advice guys... What's quickly becoming clear is that while there are options that tend to work better or worse, the most important thing to look for when trying out antennas is a good return policy.. *grin*

Thanks again.

One last thing to try is an unfolded paper clip, standard size #1. Make sure it doesn't touch other metal parts.

I'm in North Portland about five miles LOS from the broadcast towers.

My Zenith DTT900 converter box seems to like the Paper Clip Antenna. My Zenith DTT901 models are connected to more conventional/cheap indoor antennas, RCA ANT111 and Philips SDV2270/17. These all give nearly the same results with strong signal strength on most of the 23 channels. The channel 22 group and 49.1 sometimes fluctuate with a little break up and occasional signal loss. 32.2 tunes in but isn't really there.

Albertsons stores are now appearing on the NTIA list of CECB retailers.

Frys had the CM7000 on sale for $60 again, today through Tuesday, and if you haven't been keeping up, they take coupons. They had about 170 boxes this morning, on the promotional end cap of aisle 11/12 on the side toward the front of the store, and a few more on aisle 18. PQ with SVid is definitely nicer, except it is ruined by that annoying white streak on channels 6.1, 12.1, 49.1 -- it has to be fully zoomed to get rid of it. cc is also smaller, and volume is softer than my DTT901. And the buttons skip channels, both on the box and on the remote. that's my mini review. :-)

UHF corner yagi with a High VHF section.
It can mount on a DBS dish bracket.

Looks like it will be good for this market mix of high Vs and Us.

It was not suggested so much as confirmed previously in this very thread that KOIN did not get the TVGOS as they were not a CBS affiliate (agreement not renewed) at the time of the decision/announcement.

As it was discusses for entire pages before, KOIN is not broadcasting TVGOS.

The entire thing is in this thread but farther back. Go and look, then come back.

I have been reading this thread and forum for a good 2 years now and have not felt the need to post 'till today. Alot of questions are already answered, people just need to search for a few minutes.

It looks as though KOIN-DT may now have TVGOS. Two new private data PIDs have shown up in the transport stream labeled TVG1 and TVG2. Maybe DBIRD29 can provide more information.

While not OTA I thought that people on here might be interested. DirecTV has finally added channel 6 in HD. This gives them channels 2, 6, 8, 12 and 32 in HD by satellite.

It looks as though KOIN-DT may now have TVGOS. Two new private data PIDs have shown up in the transport stream labeled TVG1 and TVG2. Maybe DBIRD29 can provide more information.

Good eye. TVGOS is online.

I'm glad this section of the AVSForums wasn't lost in the great '08 database disaster.
"AVS Forum Community:

On the morning of August 11, AVS Forum suffered a major failure in the database and backup storage. As such, we have no choice but to recover from August 2nd.

This represents tens of thousands of lost posts and new threads for the last week. There is nothing we can do about it at this time but move forward. We are sorry about the loss and will work to be sure this does not happen again. We are as upset about this as you may be, more than likely even more. Further details can be found in the Forum Operations section.

Regretfully,

AVS Forum"

KMart stores are starting to receive small shipments of the Zenith DTT901 coupon eligible converter box. In the last week or so I puchased a Zenith of May 2008 production at the KMart at 122nd and Sandy, and another of June 2008 production at the KMart off the Hwy 224 in Milwaukie. Bi-Mart stores also receive small shipments of Zenith DTT901 models. One Bi-Mart store I visited has a waiting list for the Zenith. There are around 100 names on the list, according to a sales associate. Another Bi-Mart I visited does not have a waiting list but places new shipments on display. These Zeniths sell out very quickly.

KMart and BiMart price the Zenith DTT901 at $49.99, ten dollars less than Circuit City. Circuit City is now starting to allow the DTT901 to be on display along with the discontinued DTT900 model.

The DTT901 models have analog RF pass through and several audio refinements.

The DTT900 of April 2008 production corrects some audio problems found in earlier production. The DTT900 was discontinued once DTT901 production began during April.

The month/year of production is found on a bar code sticker on the end of the Zenith cardboard box and on the serial number label on the back of the converter box itself.

The Insignia NS-DXA1-APT is a clone of the Zenith DTT901 and is now appearing in Best Buy stores. The Insignia is priced at $59.99. Insignia models of June 2008 may be found at the Cascade Station store and possibly other stores as well. Insignia models produced before April 2008 do not have analog RF pass through and may exhibit the same audio problems found in earlier Zenith production.

It looks as though KOIN-DT may now have TVGOS. Two new private data PIDs have shown up in the transport stream labeled TVG1 and TVG2. Maybe DBIRD29 can provide more information.

just out of curiosity, is there any info on the data rates for each stream?

(if there is and you post it, a private message to me would be appreciated, just to call my attention to it...some of us are interested in the question of what TVG1 is versus TVG2...e.g., one possibility is that TVG1 has the digital data streams that version 8 and 9 units can now pick up, while TVG2 would carry the data for older versions that will need specific converter boxes - like the DTVPal - that would be able to carry the data over into a converted analog channel that devices using those versions are able to get TVGOS data from...)

thanks!

>> Two new private data PIDs have shown up in the transport stream labeled TVG1 and TVG2.

Hmm, would these be PIDs 0x111 and 0x112 ?

> just out of curiosity, is there any info on the data rates for each stream?

Here is data for about 10 minutes worth. Assuming this is typical,
PIDs 0x111 and 0x112 use almost no bandwidth. If you observe a bandwidth
shortage, blame 6-2.

Active PIDs in this stream
PID=0x0, ctrl_type=0x3=PAT, pkt_cnt=5395
PID=0x30, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=1541
PID=0x31, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=4329518 6-1 Video (MPEG-2) HD
PID=0x34, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=165462 6-1 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x35, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=71646 6-1 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = spa
PID=0x40, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=1542
PID=0x41, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=1284707 6-2 Video (MPEG-2) SD
PID=0x44, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=71646 6-2 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x45, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=71645 6-2 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = spa
PID=0x111, ctrl_type=0x0=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=575
PID=0x112, ctrl_type=0x0=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=540
PID=0x1d00, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=11869
PID=0x1d01, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=2880
PID=0x1d02, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=2160
PID=0x1d03, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=1078
PID=0x1d04, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=957
PID=0x1d05, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=686
PID=0x1d06, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=747
PID=0x1d07, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=576
PID=0x1d08, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=756
PID=0x1d09, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=456
PID=0x1d0a, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=510
PID=0x1d0b, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=564
PID=0x1d0c, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=306
PID=0x1d0d, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=480
PID=0x1d0e, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=185
PID=0x1d0f, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=245
PID=0x1d10, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=288
PID=0x1d11, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=248
PID=0x1d12, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=319
PID=0x1d13, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=300
PID=0x1d14, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=260
PID=0x1d15, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=250
PID=0x1d16, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=144
PID=0x1d17, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=207
PID=0x1d18, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=242
PID=0x1d19, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=168
PID=0x1d1a, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=224
PID=0x1d1b, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=118
PID=0x1d1c, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=152
PID=0x1d1d, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=128
PID=0x1d1e, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=159
PID=0x1d1f, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=141
PID=0x1d20, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=200
PID=0x1d21, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=176
PID=0x1d22, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=153
PID=0x1d23, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=108
PID=0x1d24, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=120
PID=0x1d25, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=105
PID=0x1d26, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=126
PID=0x1d27, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=112
PID=0x1e00, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=16183
PID=0x1e01, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=5390
PID=0x1e02, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=1942
PID=0x1e03, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=1232
PID=0x1e04, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=720
PID=0x1e05, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=1764
PID=0x1e06, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=1741
PID=0x1e07, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=646
PID=0x1e08, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=953
PID=0x1e09, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=1193
PID=0x1e0a, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=460
PID=0x1e0b, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=1126
PID=0x1e0c, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=645
PID=0x1e0d, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=799
PID=0x1e0e, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=111
PID=0x1e0f, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=208
PID=0x1e10, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=392
PID=0x1e11, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=185
PID=0x1e12, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=411
PID=0x1e13, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=468
PID=0x1e14, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=391
PID=0x1e15, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=400
PID=0x1e16, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=72
PID=0x1e17, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=276
PID=0x1e18, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=396
PID=0x1e19, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=318
PID=0x1e1a, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=305
PID=0x1e1b, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=118
PID=0x1e1c, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=114
PID=0x1e1d, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=334
PID=0x1e1e, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=426
PID=0x1e1f, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=306
PID=0x1e20, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=255
PID=0x1e21, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=336
PID=0x1e22, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=189
PID=0x1e23, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=122
PID=0x1e24, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=90
PID=0x1e25, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=265
PID=0x1e26, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=336
PID=0x1e27, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=248
PID=0x1e80, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=1079
PID=0x1ffb, ctrl_type=0x5=ATSC, pkt_cnt=35771
PID=0x1fff, ctrl_type=0x14=NULL, pkt_cnt=841688

While we're on CBS, I started getting a lot of signal fluctuation a couple weeks ago. Anything going that could be reducing reception? A couple weeks ago, the CM7000 started getting a wildly fluctuating signal for CBS. We've started watching on the Zenith 901, since the CM has too many breakups. The Zenith meter shows it around 40%, and it used to be around 90%.

>> Two new private data PIDs have shown up in the transport stream labeled TVG1 and TVG2.

Hmm, would these be PIDs 0x111 and 0x112 ?

> just out of curiosity, is there any info on the data rates for each stream?



0x111 [TVG1] ~ 27 kbps
0x112 [TVG2] ~ 1.5 kbps

at or near the tower that katu,koin,krcw use is having work done this is a email that i got from one of the stations.
"the tower work that has caused us to temporarily reduce the power
output of our digital transmitter is continuing. At some point over the
next couple of weeks, we may need to turn off our transmitter for a
couple of hours for the safety of the tower crew."

Thanks for sharing your email, skihoodoo. I was gone a few days with my antenna to see what it would do for my sister's vacation house, and at the moment have it next to the tv, with even more channels making me crazy, like total loss of ABC and ION. I guess I can expect more of same for a couple more weeks.

What really got me confused was this morning -- my CM7000 added "new" stations 4.1-4.4 to the channel list. The signal appears to be coming from Salem, low VHF (needs rabbit ears). I'm guessing it's being broadcast on RF4, same as Portland digital ION. I still get a really bad version of virtual 22.x ION coming from Portland. Could they be broadcasting on RF 4 from both locations? I can see that happening while they reduce signal at the Portland tower, since they have to cover Salem, but it is rather confusing!

I still get a really bad version of virtual 22.x ION coming from Portland. Could they be broadcasting on RF 4 from both locations? I can see that happening while they reduce signal at the Portland tower, since they have to cover Salem, but it is rather confusing!

In my north Portland location the channel 22 subchannels are coming in well on my Zenith DTT901 with the RCA ANT111 indoor antenna but my DTT900 with a Paper Clip Antenna has some difficulty with the channel 22 subchannels. Channel 32.2 seems to be gone. The Philips indoor antenna is temporarily set up on our Sony 30" widescreen (with HD "built-in tuner" and "Super Fine Pitch") as we have it for sale.

During this morning's lightening storm we had a power outage of around thirty minutes duration beginning at 8:11 a.m. It took me thirty minutes or more to restore my Panasonic, Philips and Toshiba equipment clocks as they were all flashing 12:00 upon restoration of power. The Zenith converter boxes needed no clock setting, they came back with spot-on time.

i also have talked with the engineer at kpxg that are going to be reducing there digital stations power soon so they can start getting in the new transmitter and all the stuff they need for the cutover.
there are going to try and do the digital transition early as soon as late september.

The Salem 4.x stations are not broadcasting in the same order as Portland 22.x. No call letters or guide info on the 4.x.

4.1 = 22.4
4.2 = 22.3
4.3 = 22.2
4.4 = 22.1

Channel 22 here is about half its usual strength. The good news is the Olympic coverage is glitch free: with less competition, KGW and OPB are now hitting 100% signal.

I posted this question about 10 days ago and it and any replies were lost in the database crash. So here it is again:

We have a place in the Hoodland area (97067) and are getting the runaround from the cable carrier. OTA with our HDTV and rabbit ears we pull in KATU quite well, KOIN with some snow and KGW occasionally. We are in the forest.

According to "antennaweb" all of our stations are yellow on up. KGW is 42.5 miles away frequency 8 on VHF and 46 on UHF and is mostly unwatchable. KATU is 41.8 miles away with UHF frequency of 43 and vhf not listed but it comes in pretty good. Why do we get KATU and not KGW? We tried a UHF loop and it made no difference.

I looked at a DB4 for the attic but was told it may not work with a metal roof. With the recent lightning storms I'm nervous about mounting it near our place outside. Wife wants an inconspicuous solution. Any suggestions on antenna selection or location would be greatly appreciated. We have to do something before the Ducks & Beavs have their kickoffs!

Webfoot07

Is there a gable on your roof in the direction of the towers? If so an attic installation may still work out for you even with a metal roof. Also, imagine if the gable and roof were not there. Would you then have a clear view in the direction of the towers? If you have more buildings trees, hills, etc. in the direction of the towers you have a more difficult problem than just the metal roof. If there are more things blocking the signal, then a roof mount has the additional advantage of getting you higher above the ground clutter.

I do not have a metal roof, but a thick cement based synthetic tile that is hard on signals. However I still had very good luck with an attic mount for a while by taking advantage of the location of the gables. I only moved it to the roof to make a rotor easier to install and use. I am at least 30% further from the towers than you are so this may work for you. But then I am on the side of a hill that slopes down in the direction of the towers leaving a clear view in that direction for several blocks.

I do not think I would try an attic installation if you have a full hip style roof with a metal surface, but you could probably find a good spot for an antenna in a gabled attic. If you do decide to go this route try getting a fairly directional antenna to limit contaminating your signal with a lot of reflections. The DB4 is probably fine, but a corner reflector yagi is also a good choice and may be easier to position and better with reflections depending on your attic layout and which one you choose.

Is it just me or is the video quality for the Olympics rotten? I've tried side by side comparisons of the Olympics on both channel 8.1 OTA and 708 comcast using my Tivo Series 3. Just awful. Anyone else? Is this NBC's fault or KGW's?

Yes, they are terrible and it's KGW's fault. They're only putting 14.2-14.9 Mbps into the HD channel in order to save precious bits for the Weather Plus so we'll have some way of finding out what the temperature might be tomorrow. Other NBC stations around the country that don't have subchannels reportedly have nothing like the blocky messes we've been seeing. ridgefamus says it looks just fine on his screen and implied that somehow Verizon FiOS is making KGW look good, but I question how closely he's watching.

For example the synchronized diving was unwatchable unless you can figure out what the hell is going on in these shots (yes, there are actually two divers in them):

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/diving1.jpg

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/diving2.jpg

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/diving3.jpg

It looks like KGW blew their budget on getting their newscast in HD and didn't have any money left over to replace their encoder which is something like five years old (if I remember right).

Wow, mine doesn't look like that. For me the most annoying thing is the lane markers, somewhat in swimming but dramatically in track - they shimmer like cheap flags at a used car lot. And that's with S-Vid and CM7000.

Wow, mine doesn't look like that.

It does if you're watching KGW in HD and you pay close attention to the 10m diving (not the lower springboard). It's simply impossible to judge the the last two thirds of the dive (other than the splash) until they show the slow motion replay.

No HDTV for me, and even the CM7000 (bad with fast motion) handled the diving competition. What a mess you got with HD! Don't they watch their own stuff to see the problems?

I've been watching via Comcast. For the first time in probably a year, I switched over to check the OTA to see if the issues might possibly have been made worse due to added Comcast compression. Nope... Same ol', same ol' from KGW... A real shame. The PQ is fine until there's movement.... not a good thing while trying to watch sports :rolleyes:. It's not terrible, but it's pretty crappy.

I may be forgetting something but I really don't recall them ever having picked up a new encoder since the beginning... When I contacted Eric after they announced their HD news/studio expansion last Dec and asked if they were also finally getting a new encoder, he said they had not gotten approval for a one yet but he was "working on it". I guess their marketing dept feels like it's better to be able to tout having HD Newschopper 1 than mpeg artifact free PQ :(


ron

Since ridgefamus said he didn't notice any significant problems with KGW on his FiOS connection, I did the opposite to see if KGW is giving a better feed to Comcast than what they are sending out of their tower. Of course they aren't. That would require two encoders.

I've seen blips every now and then on KGW for FiOS but nothing like what was screen captured in this thread. Mostly just a blip here and there.

I just checked my DirecTV feed for KGW and found it to be just as terrible as the caps that scowl posted above. I get the LA feed for the NBC through DirecTV, I think I will see if the quality is any better from down there tonight.

I've seen blips every now and then on KGW for FiOS but nothing like what was screen captured in this thread. Mostly just a blip here and there.

It appears that Verizon is reducing KGW's resolution so the HD mess is less obvious.

It would appear to me that the LA feed is a lot nicer looking than the KGW feed. On a quick pan during the volleyball game the KGW feed was an blurry mess. The LA feed for the same footage was a little blurred but much clearer. The players outlines were distiguishable while watching the feed from LA.

All my channels have found their way back to strong signals that don't bounce. So whatever that tower work was, it helped my situation.

Am I the only one who gets 4.1-4.4 ION? It is now 100% on the CM meter, which is surprising since I'm aiming for the Portland towers.

I'll second the observation that the LA version is better. I was on vacation down in LA for the first two weeks of the Olympics, and I was impressed at the picture quality. I've been home now for the last two weeks, and have been very disappointed with our blurry mess up here. Why? Why? Why? Its so distracting to me when the action gets fast, that the picture goes to crap. I was looking forward to the times when I got to watch the Olympics on USA (and other channels) instead of NBC.

[ scowl posted frames from KGW ]

To quote the asst. coach on _Bull_Durem_, "New...league...record!"
Wow, they've even outdone OPB, and that takes some doing. Those
shots could be pretty much anything. The only thing I can make
out is the NBC peacock, and the rings on the 2nd and 3rd frames.

> it's better to be able to tout having HD Newschopper 1

News flash for our fine local TV news organizations: it does
no good to have a Newschopper if the stuff you broadcast is carp.
Newschoppers are extremely non-green. Being woken up by the noise
of helecopters is offensive. The fuel bill alone could pay for a
new encoder. (If in fact the encoder is a problem.)

> They're only putting 14.2-14.9 Mbps into the HD channel in order
> to save precious bits for the Weather Plus

None of the stations with multiple subchannels looks as good as
it should. It should be possible to set up a weather subchannel
that uses very low bandwidth, but of course that wouldn't be
flashy enough. BTW, were they pumping out null packets during
the fast action?

Since ridgefamus said he didn't notice any significant problems with KGW on his FiOS connection, I did the opposite to see if KGW is giving a better feed to Comcast than what they are sending out of their tower. Of course they aren't. That would require two encoders.

Since I don't use my OTA source but rarely, I don't regularly monitor this thread so I'm coming here a bit late to comment. But I do recall that I said in the Olympics thread that I did experience pixelation in fast motion events but nothing close to the macroblocking you exhibited in your attachments. I watched for it again (via FiOS) when the men's platform diving was shown this past weekend. I will say it was more noticeable this time around than during the womens' synchro competition. But it was never so bad that the figure of the diver was distorted to the point of rendering the image indiscernible. During the womens' event I never had a problem following both divers and could pretty easily decide for myself if the divers were in sync and performed well, before the replays.

I understand what you are saying about KGW's lack of adequate bitrate and am not defending their choices that deliver subpar images. I wish I had performed an A - B test to compare OTA with my Verizon (reduced resolution? - where did that come from?) feed, but I didn't perhaps because I didn't think the Verizon was so very bad. I thought the pixelation was very prevalent and annoying at times but not to the detriment of my enjoyment of watching the games. Bothersome? - yes. Blocky messes? - not here.

Has something happened to a tower? Channel 2.1, 6.1, and 32.1 are not coming in for me today. Channel 2 and 6 are coming in just fine, but not their digital channels. Really odd.

It's more tower work. Posted by skihoodoo on SatelliteGuys, 8/25/08 (yesterday):
Just talked to one stations engineer and he told my that the temp shutdown was scheduled for today but it was cancelled due to weather conditions that did not happen. so it was rescheduled for tomorrow starting around 6:00 am and lasting as long as 8 hours

update at least katu has talked to dish and directv and they will switch to the analog feed so there is some programing during this time

http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/145655-portland-oregon-locals.html#post1496782

But I do recall that I said in the Olympics thread that I did experience pixelation in fast motion events but nothing close to the macroblocking you exhibited in your attachments.

Did you freeze a frame?

The blocking is much more obvious in a singe frame than when viewed live.

first i would like to say thanks to TalkingRat i forgot to post it here.
as of 2pm the tower maint. is completed for today
also they might have to turn them off again over the next couple of weeks

Did you freeze a frame?

The blocking is much more obvious in a singe frame than when viewed live.Especially when the screen caps are crops :D


ron

Did you freeze a frame?

The blocking is much more obvious in a singe frame than when viewed live.

Yes, I did freeze some frames of the synchro diving and did see some blocking, but not to the extent of scowl's posts. I also said that I typically don't watch these events in freeze-frame. I find them much more enjoyable in motion. And when in motion, the blockiness is minimized. YMMV! :D

Besides, you get slow motion and stro-mo from NBC many times repeated. No need for me to freeze live action unless I am going to sit around and find faults to criticize.

I appreciate that there are those on the AVS forums who contribute their wonderful expertise (scowl included) to point out the technical aspects of what I am viewing. I have learned lots since 2003 when I joined in. I am not a technician so I cannot contribute to that side of the HD experience. I can only relate what I am seeing and provide that perspective when I find myself with a differing opinion.

More tower work on Thursday.
Sylvan Tower DTV down while CBS Radio does tower work.

I believe you will almost always see a lot of artifacts in a Freeze Frame unless you happen to catch one of the main anchor frames like the first in a scene. As I understand it, the compression saves the first full frame, and then begins saving difference information only for several frames. So, I think you have a high chance of getting a lot of the difference information being exagerated when you grab a freeze frame.

Thanks for the heads up on tower work. It's nice to have the inside track. ;-)

here is a post from katu.com
PROGRAMMING NOTE
KATU's digital transmitter is undergoing maintenance and should be back in service at about 1 pm Thursday.

After CBS came back on the air after tower work, I've noticed that I don't stay locked on the CBS signal that gives me one clock time for all channels on my TR-40 converter box. It's supposed to lock into CBS's PSIP clock in the presence of that tvgos signal, so event timers get a consistent time. But I seem to lose the lock sometimes.

Tonight other stations were unusually far off on their PSIP clocks. Fox got stuck on 1:21 pm all evening, and ION was running about half an hour fast. Usually they are realy close to accurate. When I lose the lock and the clocks are off, the event timers can fail.

Is there testing going on at CBS that could explain the intermittent loss of my time lock? The signal isn't as strong as it used to be, but it's still in the upper 60s and not breaking up. So are there still bugs in the TR-40 version 103 firmware, or is there a station explanation for losing my clock now and then? If it's temporary, I can relax and wait. :)

TIA!

TalkingRat> It's supposed to lock into CBS's PSIP clock in
TalkingRat> the presense of that tvgos signal, so event timers
TalkingRat> get a consistent time.

Is there a signal in the bitstream that indicates when a show
starts/stops? Stations/networks are all over the map with
starting and stopping times. Sometimes this is even reflected
in the titan schedules, a show will be shown as starting at 9:02pm
and/or lasting 62 minutes, etc.

My solution is to start recording 5 minutes ahead and leave it
going 5 minutes after. This allows for clock drift and funny
start/stop times, but wastes a lot of disk space. It would be
nice to have a way to automagically edit that down.

TalkingRat> The signal isn't as strong as it used to be, but it's
TalkingRat> still in the upper 60s and not breaking up.

I'm still getting KOIN ch40 at 100% signal strength (could be weaker
than before, since the "meter" pegs at 100), but the signal quality
is only 60% instead of the usual 80-90%. No dropped packets.

KPDX ch48 is showing 99% strength instead of 100%, but otherwise
comes in perfectly, as usual.

KPTV ch30 has the usual good numbers (100% strength 90% quality)
but I'm getting dropped packets and forward error correction failures,
resulting in decode errors. KPTV usually comes in perfectly, but not
recently.

And KOPB ch27 is alternating between perfect and horrible.
Saturday they even had horrible digital style artifacts on
analog ch10. That obviously happened upstream of the
transmitter. I guess they are too busy redecorating the
studios to pay attention to minor details like sending
out a decent signal.

Thanks for your reply!

On the recording issue, there is nothing that looks at actual start times. It's like a VCR without a manual clock, and it uses PSIP time vs. the scheduled event, and if it can't lock onto CBS time, what it apparently does (I haven't experienced this yet) for a scheduled event is this: 1) the box activates according to the current channel's PSIP time. Then, 2) before it actually changes to the target channel, it looks at the target channel's PSIP time. If that station has a fast PSIP clock already beyond the event start time, it says "event over" and does not ever change to the target channel, so the VCR gets no chance at all to record. Sequential events on different channels can fail from PSIP times that don't work together. For example, at the moment Fox 12 is still stuck on 1:21 pm -- with yesterday's date. :rolleyes: DTVPal users also report that even with a CBS lock, if you stay on a non-CBS channel for long periods, the time drifts and thus can mess up the event timers if it doesn't get its lock back. When it's off, it's supposed to keep seeking that CBS signal to stay on time, but something is interfering and I haven't figured out how to keep the time locked.

Interesting on all the channel signal changes, thank you for that comparison!! Usually when I get a weak and fluctuating signal, the CM7000 breaks up, but on my meter right now KOIN is much weaker but does not wildly fluctuate the way CW and DPDX does for me in late afternoon. I've been looking for a bad picture day so I can see if the TR-40 is any better at holding the picture, but so far it's been too stable to test.

I have no diagnostic equipment to actually see what's being broadcast, so I am glad to know the tvgos data isn't dropping out. It still could be a signal problem, just my signal reception problem. Otherwise, something about the TR-40 is still buggy, that it can't keep the lock when it's off. My OPB signal is ok for 10.1-10.4, although it's been fluctuating, with is not typical. I still get a strong signal and no breakup, except for the audio 10.5, which lately is completely garbled noise for the first 10-15 seconds, and then it locks onto human sound. :p

KATU has been MIA for at least two weeks and no antenna tweaking will get it back in. KOIN and now KPTV are dropping out too. I've already checked my coax for nut-weasel nibbles. Anything unusual going on with tower maintenance or do I need to chainsaw the neighbor's trees in the middle of the night?

BTW, it seems odd looking back at the posts here and seeing the messages about switching to backup transmitters and reduced power, etc. Has OTA TV always been up and down transmit power, outages, backup transmitters, etc. that we never noticed, or is the DTV switch just screwing things up.

Also, anyone else noticed PBS messing up their programming? Several HD programs on 10.1 were letterboxed all the way around (zoomed out to standard definition size, sometimes switching in the middle of the program), and the same on a 10.3 show I recorded a few weeks ago - the SD broadcast had an itty-bitty letterbox in the middle of the picture! Not to mention that they have been slowly changing the schedule so that there is a lot of duplicate programming on the SD subchannels as HD, which is about as dumb as KOIN's 6.2.

As an aside, I think the golden age of HDTV is now gone. All the HD programming is now converting back to essentially 3:4 programming with the fear that cable companies will center crop to make an SD picture. Graphics and screen bugs are being moved into the center of the screen, camera work is framed to so there is nothing going on in the sides of the picture. For example, replays of HD SNL from a few years ago actually have something going on in the whole picture, but now it's like somebody taped a 3:4 square over the middle of the cameraman's monitor. I say SCREW CABLE! Move the graphics and content to FORCE cable to letterbox or just give out HD boxes to everybody! Put the 'zoom in' feature into the cable box and let customers decide. Make customers call the cable company and complain that the sports scores are chopped off if the cable company is going to zoom in on the picture FOR YOU. (I had to explain to a stupid door-knocking Comcast salesman that putting an antenna up and receiving HDTV for free was not illegal - which is probably representative of the corporate IQ there - the same company that is running lying ads that Comcast 'has more HDTV channels than satellite', with the fine print that EVERY on-demand program is a 'channel'.)

And as a final rant, quit reminding me about the DTV switch ON DIGITAL TV, guys! I don't need switchover commercials on 8.2 and scrolls across the bottom of my HD picture for gods sake!

Ok, I guess that turned into a big 'what really grinds my gears'.. but seriously, anything weird with signals today?

And as a final rant, quit reminding me about the DTV switch ON DIGITAL TV, guys! I don't need switchover commercials on 8.2 and scrolls across the bottom of my HD picture for gods sake!

Go talk to the FCC. They've mandated that it be carried on both digital and analog feeds.

- Trip

> KATU has been MIA for at least two weeks and no antenna tweaking will get it back in.

KATU ch43 is still coming in ok for me.

> KOIN and now KPTV are dropping out too

KOIN ch40 is still at 100% signal strength, but signal quality has
been slowly dropping, now down to 50%. Still no dropped packets,
and the mpeg still decodes ok. At this rate the signal will be gone
about the time the new season starts.

KPTV ch30 still comes in at 100% signal strength & 90% signal quality,
(same as usual) but used to come in perfect (usually) and now drops
packets and has forward error correction errors and thus mpeg decode errors.

KOPB ch27 is still alternating between perfect and horrible.

New problem: KPXG ch4 is suddenly much worse than normal. Hundreds of dropped packets.

> Has OTA TV always been up and down transmit power, outages, backup transmitters,
> etc. that we never noticed, or is the DTV switch just screwing things up.

NTSC has its faults, but it degrades gracefully. ATSC/8VSB can give a
better picture when everything is perfect, but when things aren't perfect
it degrades into unusable very rapidly. It doesn't have nearly enough
safety margin.

> Several HD programs on 10.1 were letterboxed all the way around

Haven't noticed this particular screwup.

> the SD broadcast had an itty-bitty letterbox in the middle of the picture!

Sounds like the same thing (black boarder on all 4 sides). Haven't noticed this.

> Not to mention that they have been slowly changing the schedule so
> that there is a lot of duplicate programming on the SD subchannels
> as HD, which is about as dumb as KOIN's 6.2.

Recently they changed, now 6pm-midnight SD and HD are the same.

I notice the OPB has massive compression artifacts due to too many
subchannels. And massive softness, presumably an attempt to
reduce compression artifacts. A lot of current shows on OPB are
softer than shows recorded in the 1950s. This is progress?
They're even worse than VHS! And then they insult us with their
spots claiming that digital is "crystal clear".

OPB looks better on analog than digital, even with dot crawl.
Although sometimes they transmit digital artifacts on analog,
so there is no escape.

> And as a final rant, quit reminding me about the DTV switch
> ON DIGITAL TV, guys! I don't need switchover commercials on 8.2
> and scrolls across the bottom of my HD picture for gods sake!

And can we please lose the crawler on KPDX ch48? :-(

KOIN continues to be extremely low on signal strength (18-26 on CM7000 meter) but is stable and no blips. CW recently had a short evening period of virtually total breakup for maybe 40 minutes. I get KATU ok, so if it's weaker, it isn't as dramatic as KOIN's change. No word on what's going on, but I'm not making antenna decisions until the transition work is done.

CW has been giving me trouble on good days.

>>>> KOIN and now KPTV are dropping out too

>>> KOIN ch40 is still at 100% signal strength, but signal quality has
>>> been slowly dropping, now down to 50%. Still no dropped packets,
>>> and the mpeg still decodes ok. At this rate the signal will be gone
>>> about the time the new season starts.

>> KOIN continues to be extremely low on signal strength (18-26 on CM7000
>> meter) but is stable and no blips.

KOIN ch40 is still at 100% signal strength & 50% signal quality, but as
predicted has degraded further and now the forward error correction is
failing, and dropping packets, resulting in mpeg decoding errors. :-(

Does anyone know what's going on?

>>>> Several HD programs on 10.1 were letterboxed all the way around

OPB's latest snafu is bouncing back and forth between pillerboxed 3:4
and cropping it into 9:16.

>> CW recently had a short evening period of virtually total breakup for
>> maybe 40 minutes.

> CW has been giving me trouble on good days.

Does anyone actually get reliable reception of CW? I've only had
good reception 1 or 2 days in the last 2-3 years.

For whatever reason, KOIN is the weakest signal I'm getting right now. All the rest are in the 90's to upper 80's yet KOIN is barely hanging in there with 65-67 no matter where I point my antenna. It used to be in the upper 80's.

Konrad, thanks for the KOIN update, and info on packet loss. My TR40 lost its CBS lock again last night and missed a timed event. The signal on my CM7000 was dropping down to 14.

15 miles south, and my CW has improved, I get 100% lock half the time and haven't seen a late afternoon breakup for weeks. All my signals have been weird lately, I don't know what is normal anymore. I also get about 5 more snowy analog signals than I did 4 months ago, not that I want to watch.

Reception update: KOIN ch40 is even worse, now giving *thousands*
of forward error correction failures.

The plague has now infected KPDX ch48, which is normally my most
reliable digital station.

Does anyone have any idea what's going on? Are they still working
on the towers? Is there some new broadcast causing interference?

Non-reception-related snafus:

OPB now has audio dropouts. Complete silence. Not a reception problem,
the exact same dropouts happened on the rerun.

KOIN decided to run an informercial instead of the scheduled program.

KOIN decided to run an informercial instead of the scheduled program.

Not sure what program you're referring to, but the NFL games ran late on the east coast yesterday, pushing 60 Minutes out. So if it was a program after that, perhaps CBS decided not to air it.

>> KOIN decided to run an informercial instead of the scheduled program.

> Not sure what program you're referring to, but the NFL games ran late
> on the east coast yesterday, pushing 60 Minutes out. So if it was a
> program after that, perhaps CBS decided not to air it.

Given that Greenspan says that we are in a "once in a century"
financial crisis, you might think that they could find time
to air the _Wall_Street_Journal_Report_ as scheduled?

Slightly more important than some ball game or infomercial.

Sports events often run long. Not exactly a surprise.
Schedule enough time.

> KOIN decided to run an informercial instead of the scheduled program.

And the other week they moved prime time shows around with no warning.
I suppose KOIN might point the finger at CBS, but the end result is
the same. Viewers miss an episode of the show, and KOIN/CBS's
advertisers get fewer eyeballs watching the commercials.

On the reception front, KOIN's signal quality is back up to 80% (which
is in the normal range for them) with no errors. Still no clue why
it went bad, why it got better again, and if it will stay good.

> KOIN decided to run an informercial instead of the scheduled program.

And the other week they moved prime time shows around with no warning.
I suppose KOIN might point the finger at CBS, but the end result is
the same. Viewers miss an episode of the show, and KOIN/CBS's
advertisers get fewer eyeballs watching the commercials.

On the reception front, KOIN's signal quality is back up to 80% (which
is in the normal range for them) with no errors. Still no clue why
it went bad, why it got better again, and if it will stay good.

Hello Folks,
I am new here. I just wanted to confirm problems with KOIN. I have two Silicondust HDHomerun units. The older rev with 2A Power Supply and a newer rev with 1A Power Supply.
The older rev get about 80% signal quality on both 6.1 and 6.2. I have started noticing errors as of late on 6.1. 6.2 seems ok.

The newer rev can't get a lock for very long. Signal quality is all over the map. averages 30%. I have tried switch antenna input between the old and new rev without any success.

All the other channels seem good. Come to think of it KOIN has been a pain for months now. Like playing with the audio stream (descriptive text and spanish with the wrong AC3 id) and timing of the program stream cutting the show a few minutes early.

If anyone knows what the heck is up with these guys, please let me know. What are the details of the tower work rumor?? Anyone have any details?

The older rev get about 80% signal quality on both 6.1 and 6.2. I have started noticing errors as of late on 6.1. 6.2 seems ok.
KOIN is back up to mid 80's for me, even on my ancient first-generation ATSC receiver.

Come to think of it KOIN has been a pain for months now. Like playing with the audio stream (descriptive text and spanish with the wrong AC3 id) and timing of the program stream cutting the show a few minutes early.
It sounds like it's not parsing the PMT correctly. The PID for the normal audio is always 52 and the SAP audio is always 53.

KOIN for me improved a day or two ago, but it has not returned to its former signal strength. Based on on CM7000 meter, it was originally in the 80s, dropped to the low 20s, then as low as 14, yesterday it was 48-54 and today it's 58-62. I need that CBS clock for my TR40 timers to work.

I know this is the Portland HD Thread, but you might be interested to hear that the digital switch has begun. Wilmington, North Carolina is now All, AND ONLY, digital. The first in the nation. They are supposed to be a 'guinea pig'. So far, looks and sounds good!! If interested, go here...
http://www.hdtv.gov/wilmington/inthenews.html