My KOIN signal is now back to full power, 96-100 on the CM7000.

My KOIN signal is now back to full power, 96-100 on the CM7000.

Mine's pretty good too now. sig quality is 70-85% on the rev 2 HDHomeRun. 88-93% on rev 1 HDHomeRun. Maybe its not as good as yours because it is a bit rainy outside tonight.

Its almost makes me feel like they really care. ;-)

Just built new home east of 192nd Ave and just south of Lake road in Camas, about 100+ ' elevation, no nearby trees. New Toshiba REGAZA 120 HZ 46" DTV and about 100' RG6 cable from TV direc to attic. Installed WEINGARD HD1080 antenna in attic (single story home)..following antennaweb.org:

Oriented to about 230' and no problem w/ all PDX channels. Analog good too! Found that moving antenna to about 200' orientation and I now ALSO get channel 26 (R26GJ FMN network) quite well, some "grain" in pic but sound good and snow gone. Other channels changed a bit (some improved, others lost a bit of signal strength) but: 2.1, 6.1,2, 8.1,2, 10-10.1-.5, 12.1, 22.1-.4, 24.1-.5, 32-1, 49-1 all good, didn't bother w/ the analog and/or repeaters of each network but, they seemed best at the previous 230' orientation. But, just repeaters and not desired w/ good-excellent HD signal strenght of all networks). Even picked up Channel 7, a PBS (OPB repeater?) not even listed on antennaWeb!:D

Question is Channel 20 - KOXI-CA of Camas.?! Apparently this signal originates about (only) 7 miles away but, to the OPPOSITE direction of the front of my antenna (about 19' IAW antennaweb). At 230' orient, I couldn't get it, at 195-200' orientation, it comes in with sound, "grain" in pic and some snow - "almost" watchable. Move antenna to 20' it's better but, I of course start lsing my PDX network signals...Imagine antenna at 200' orientation is picking up signal off BACK of the HD1080 antenna since 200' oreintation is almost directly opposite the CH 20 stations signal at 20'.

Want to "stay" w/ antenna in attic (grounding, mounting, etc., yada,yada)...Thinking of a SECOND ANTENNA mounted about 6' away pointing to KOXI signal w/ duplicate length of coax to a coupler connected to my 100' RG6 lead to TV. Confused...:confused:

Question: All my other channnels are about 63-90 "pound" on TV signal meter. No clipping but, might a coupler or a second antenna cause a loss of signal strength on my other channnels? Do I need the SAME (Weingard HD 1080 in my case) antenna or can a different antenna be used if coupling two??:o

Any tips, clues, ideas from others? How are YOU doing w/ Channel 20 KOXI-CA?

Cable/satellite, NO way, especially if not true DTV and why pay for what I can get free!:p

Post or e-mail me@ : chynalemay@yahoo.com

Jeff:)

Question is Channel 20 - KOXI-CA of Camas.?! Apparently this signal originates about (only) 7 miles away but, to the OPPOSITE direction of the front of my antenna (about 19' IAW antennaweb). At 230' orient, I couldn't get it, at 195-200' orientation, it comes in with sound, "grain" in pic and some snow - "almost" watchable. Move antenna to 20' it's better but, I of course start lsing my PDX network signals...Imagine antenna at 200' orientation is picking up signal off BACK of the HD1080 antenna since 200' oreintation is almost directly opposite the CH 20 stations signal at 20'.

Want to "stay" w/ antenna in attic (grounding, mounting, etc., yada,yada)...Thinking of a SECOND ANTENNA mounted about 6' away pointing to KOXI signal w/ duplicate length of coax to a coupler connected to my 100' RG6 lead to TV. Confused...:confused:

I am in north Portland, line-of-sight less than five miles from the Portland antenna farms; about eight blocks east of I-5 at the highest point in zip code 97217 (just to the NE of Jefferson High School and PCC Cascade Campus). Often all the antenna I need for good digital reception with Zenith DTT901 converter boxes is an unfolded standard sized paper clip.

I am interested in KOXI because they sometimes program old and obscure TV shows and movies. According to antennaweb.org, I am 17.3 miles from the KOXI tower. KOXI gives me the same reception as you describe. I use two different indoor VHF/UHF antennas (both with VHF rods with a UHF loop), a RCA ANT111 (under $10) and a Philips SDV2270/17 (under $20). Neither antenna is amplified but the Philips has gain controls. One tuner is a five year old 13" RCA CRT TV used with the Philips antenna; the other is a Panasonic DMR-EZ28 DVD recorder (a digital/analog tuner model manufactured in April 2008) used with the RCA antenna. With these antennas optimized for reception of Portland stations KOXI is received off the back side of these antennas.

Just built new home east of 192nd Ave and just south of Lake road in Camas, about 100+ ' elevation, no nearby trees. New Toshiba REGAZA 120 HZ 46" DTV and about 100' RG6 cable from TV direc to attic. Installed WEINGARD HD1080 antenna in attic (single story home)..following antennaweb.org:

Cable/satellite, NO way, especially if not true DTV and why pay for what I can get free!:p

Post or e-mail me@ : chynalemay@yahoo.com

Jeff:)

Hey there Jeff.. We're somewhat neighbors. I'm on Prune Hill in Camas. I played with the idea of an antenna myself (I have clear line of sight to all the towers) but considering I have Comcast internet the (extreme basic) cable is pretty much free (you get a discount on your internet if you have cable... I think it's probably a sleezy way to boost subscriber numbers). If it was not "free" I'd do antenna as well with my MythTV system..

Jeff,

Channel 7 is KOAC- Corvallis. I haven't researched what its differences are, other than noticing that occasionally it has a familiar program on, just at a different time.

I like tvfool.com better than antennaweb.org

thanx, I found Ch 7, interesting an antenna less than a yard in lenght IN an attic gets Corvallis so clear...anybody:

Neeed: tips/thoughts/rules on "coupling" two antennas? So I can have one "oriented" at 20' for KOXI, the others at 195-225 for PDX (with antenna at 200' I lose "some" minor signal but channel 26 comes in decent). Angtenna web.org has KOXI originating about 7~ miles from me at 19' oreintation, "opposite" all PDX stations (228-231' IAW antennaweb.org). Others w/ antennas I have talked to cannot receive it, even two locl TV repairs/antenna sales install shops in Vancouver and Washougal!

I know I need coax from antenna to coupler of equal lengths. Do I need to use the same model antenna? Is about 4' separation between antenna's ok? Coupler make/brand recommendation? WIll I lose signal on 200' oriented antenna by coupling? Wil the reception via the "back" of antenna cause ghosting/problems? etc., etc., ?? thanx :confused:

Jeff in Camas

Where is KOXI-CA coming from? According to the FCC, it should be on the same tower as KGW-DT, KOPB-DT, and KPXG-DT.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=CA1196543.html

- Trip

My moving attic antenna definatley gets worse for KOXI as I orient "away" from 20'~ or 200'~ (back of antenna reception (?) on my Weingard HD1080 ), so it doesn't appear to be from the PDX towers at 228-231' orientation (?) :mad::confused:

thoughts/others??

Jeff in Camas

Where is KOXI-CA coming from? According to the FCC, it should be on the same tower as KGW-DT, KOPB-DT, and KPXG-DT.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=CA1196543.html

- Trip

WatchTV also operates KORK-CA analog channel 35 (a shopping channel). In December that signal was listed by antennaweb.org at 177* and 5.3 miles from my location. If I had to guess I would say they are transmitting from the "eyefull tower" at the south end of SW Council Crest Drive (addresses in the 4500-4700 range) at Healy Heights. KOXI-CA channel 20 is not in that location. I assume that KOXI-CA is transmitting from the general Camas area, 42*and 17.3 miles distant from my location. I have to carefully adjust an antenna to receive KOXI-CA with a snowy picture. With that antenna adjustment reception of most of the Portland digital stations is satisfactory but not optimal.

WatchTV has its office at 1628 NW Everett St., a block from I-405 in the "Pearl District" near downtown Portland. This is an old house converted into offices. I drove by once but I could not see if there was a STL on the roof. I called their office several times, always getting a recorded annoucement, and left a couple of voice messages that were never returned.

Addendum: I just looked at the "street level view" of 1628 NW Everett St. (zip code 97209) on Google maps. There are a variety of antennas on the roof of that house. The dish does seem to be pointed toward Healy Heights.

For those interested in broadcasting lore of yesteryear the little old house that was the original home of KQFM 100.3 (Point-O-Salescast) still stands about three bocks away at 405 NW 18 Ave (also zip code 97209). That FM radio station also had its transmitter on SW Council Crest Drive. In those days KQFM was the station you heard while shopping at the supermaket. I remember the many brief recorded announcements from John Lewis (from KPTV), e.g., "buy fresh carrots and celery today" or "get some fresh eggs" or "we have quality meat and fish" or "remember to get a loaf of bread" or "get some frozen peas or corn." More history concerning KQFM is found here:

http://pdxradio.net/feedback/messages/995/2789.html?1109003741

More Portland radio broadcast tower information is found here:

http://feedback.pdxradio.com/messages/995/2975.html?1200979287

I get KORK Ch 35 w/ more snow and "grain" than 20, enough that Ch 35 is definately (but, I wouldn't watch it anyway) NOT watchable, Ch 20 is "borderlinewatchable at best" but, always has snow and some grain, I can "read" the letters though on the screen, ...I would like to improve it's reception and can only think of dual antenna coupling (but, need the FACTS and DETAILS) before I start (see above post),... I could not find a tel # for Ch 20/Watch TV anywhere, would be nice to try them several times a day though in an effort to improve the reception w/ tips from them..have they applied for (and intend) to go digital?? thought I read one time they had for channel 28(?):cool:

Yes. They have a construction permit for channel 28. Here's the pattern for that permit:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1151403.html

I've been told that KORS-CA 16 is operating digitally already from that same tower, as evidenced by the announcement that they have a music video subchannel on 16-2, but I've found no one who can receive it.

As for combining antennas, Channel Master makes a product called the "JoinTenna" that you might want to look into.

- Trip

My signal meter shows "nothing" on 16-1, 16-2 or 28-1....heard about the join tenna coupler but, cannot find on websites...got a link? Would I need to use "same" make model antenna? What about sig loss w/ coupler and ghosting??

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/Jointennas.htm

I've heard it has drop-off on the channel above and below (so if you got a channel 20 model, you'd have issues with 19 and 21), but otherwise shouldn't make a difference. I don't think the type of antenna used matters, as long as it runs through the JoinTenna. Since it isolates the single channel, ghosting shouldn't be an issue in any way. Can't tell you anything about loss due to coupling.

- Trip

I could not find a tel # for Ch 20/Watch TV anywhere, would be nice to try them several times a day though in an effort to improve the reception w/ tips from them..have they applied for (and intend) to go digital?? thought I read one time they had for channel 28(?):cool:

I just called WatchTV and got the recorded announcement.

Here are the numbers:

503-241-2411 or 866-241-2411

Notce that I just edited my earlier post with information about their offices and office roof antennas/STL?

I've noticed that sometimes KPXG ch4 has a regularly spaced
pattern of continuity count errors.

Here is an example of dtvstream output for 2008-09-25 (Star Trek IV)

...
Finished 11%, elapsed = 0:30, remaining = 3:40
ERROR in TS 0x61 pkt Continuity Count - expected 14 got 2 at 36030760 bytes since epoch 56 MB
ERROR in TS 0x51 pkt Continuity Count - expected 1 got 7 at 36030948 bytes since epoch 56 MB
ERROR in TS 0x54 pkt Continuity Count - expected 0 got 3 at 36033392 bytes since epoch 56 MB
ERROR in TS 0x45 pkt Continuity Count - expected 10 got 13 at 36036400 bytes since epoch 56 MB
ERROR in TS 0x64 pkt Continuity Count - expected 15 got 4 at 36044672 bytes since epoch 56 MB
ERROR in TS 0x34 pkt Continuity Count - expected 5 got 11 at 36048620 bytes since epoch 56 MB
ERROR in TS 0x44 pkt Continuity Count - expected 14 got 2 at 36053696 bytes since epoch 56 MB
ERROR in TS 0x41 pkt Continuity Count - expected 2 got 14 at 36058772 bytes since epoch 56 MB
ERROR in TS 0x31 pkt Continuity Count - expected 8 got 2 at 36081144 bytes since epoch 56 MB
Finished 31%, elapsed = 1:15, remaining = 2:47
ERROR in TS 0x45 pkt Continuity Count - expected 12 got 15 at 11852876 bytes since epoch 145 MB
ERROR in TS 0x34 pkt Continuity Count - expected 12 got 1 at 11853252 bytes since epoch 145 MB
ERROR in TS 0x51 pkt Continuity Count - expected 14 got 4 at 11853628 bytes since epoch 145 MB
ERROR in TS 0x61 pkt Continuity Count - expected 5 got 6 at 11856260 bytes since epoch 145 MB
ERROR in TS 0x64 pkt Continuity Count - expected 3 got 8 at 11861336 bytes since epoch 145 MB
ERROR in TS 0x44 pkt Continuity Count - expected 0 got 4 at 11869984 bytes since epoch 145 MB
ERROR in TS 0x31 pkt Continuity Count - expected 6 got 12 at 11873180 bytes since epoch 145 MB
ERROR in TS 0x54 pkt Continuity Count - expected 5 got 9 at 11875248 bytes since epoch 145 MB
ERROR in TS 0x41 pkt Continuity Count - expected 4 got 7 at 11901944 bytes since epoch 145 MB
Finished 40%, elapsed = 1:37, remaining = 2:22
ERROR in TS 0x31 pkt Continuity Count - expected 6 got 10 at 1616716 bytes since epoch 189 MB
ERROR in TS 0x61 pkt Continuity Count - expected 12 got 7 at 1616904 bytes since epoch 189 MB
ERROR in TS 0x64 pkt Continuity Count - expected 7 got 12 at 1618032 bytes since epoch 189 MB
ERROR in TS 0x34 pkt Continuity Count - expected 5 got 10 at 1621980 bytes since epoch 189 MB
ERROR in TS 0x44 pkt Continuity Count - expected 10 got 13 at 1622544 bytes since epoch 189 MB
ERROR in TS 0x45 pkt Continuity Count - expected 6 got 9 at 1627432 bytes since epoch 189 MB
ERROR in TS 0x54 pkt Continuity Count - expected 11 got 15 at 1643788 bytes since epoch 189 MB
ERROR in TS 0x41 pkt Continuity Count - expected 14 got 10 at 1651684 bytes since epoch 189 MB
ERROR in TS 0x51 pkt Continuity Count - expected 11 got 14 at 1669544 bytes since epoch 189 MB
Finished 50%, elapsed = 2:00, remaining = 2:00
ERROR in TS 0x31 pkt Continuity Count - expected 12 got 10 at 23336044 bytes since epoch 233 MB
ERROR in TS 0x41 pkt Continuity Count - expected 14 got 2 at 23336232 bytes since epoch 233 MB
ERROR in TS 0x34 pkt Continuity Count - expected 0 got 5 at 23343188 bytes since epoch 233 MB
ERROR in TS 0x44 pkt Continuity Count - expected 0 got 4 at 23348264 bytes since epoch 233 MB
ERROR in TS 0x64 pkt Continuity Count - expected 13 got 3 at 23350332 bytes since epoch 233 MB
ERROR in TS 0x45 pkt Continuity Count - expected 12 got 0 at 23352776 bytes since epoch 233 MB
ERROR in TS 0x51 pkt Continuity Count - expected 14 got 11 at 23355220 bytes since epoch 233 MB
ERROR in TS 0x54 pkt Continuity Count - expected 2 got 6 at 23355596 bytes since epoch 233 MB
ERROR in TS 0x61 pkt Continuity Count - expected 4 got 0 at 23356160 bytes since epoch 233 MB
Finished 59%, elapsed = 2:25, remaining = 1:37
ERROR in TS 0x34 pkt Continuity Count - expected 15 got 4 at 32662412 bytes since epoch 277 MB
...

And of course the resulting decode errors.

This problem only affects the video and audio PIDs. None of the other PIDs
have errors. Which makes me think it is something wrong at the station
rather than interference.

> Want to "stay" w/ antenna in attic (grounding, mounting, etc.,
> yada,yada)...Thinking of a SECOND ANTENNA mounted about 6' away
> pointing to KOXI signal w/ duplicate length of coax to a coupler
> connected to my 100' RG6 lead to TV.

Randomly connecting two antennas together like this is likely
to add a lot of multipath, hurting reception.

> might a coupler or a second antenna cause a loss of signal strength
> on my other channnels?

Signal strength isn't the problem. Signal quality, in this case
multipath, is the problem.

Method #1: If you don't mind the inconvienance, a RF switch ($3-5)
will probably give you the best reception.

Method #2, filter and combine:

>> Channel Master makes a product called the "JoinTenna"

> heard about the join tenna coupler but, cannot find on websites...got a link?

Google it. The first hit is:
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/Jointennas.htm

There are other places that sell them. The filtering is far from perfect.
If the Jointenna doesn't perform well enough, you could get a custom filter
built from http://www.tinlee.com/
This will run over $100.

With the RF switch or Jointenna methods, the two antennas
do not need to be the same, coax lengths don't need to match.

Method #3, stacking:

You can combine two antennas in such a way that you get
lobes pointed at the 2 (or more) towers you want.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html
Scroll down to "The Two Antenna Trick".

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html#TAT

looks like warren elec does NOT have one for Ch 20 (KOXI-CA in this case), think I'll first go redirect my existing HD 1080 Weingard to 15-25' and see "how much" (if any) pic/reception gets...if not much better no sense in goiing thru the 2nd antenna, appreciate the inputs BTW! :)

I will post w/ results in a few days...(IAW antennaweb: CH 20 KOXI-CA is 19' orientation from me, the Portland channels are 228-231', R26GJ is 189'..I get R26GJ w/ antenna at 200' and the PDX channels don't "suffer" much -some like KPTV DT Ch 12 actually improved)- though KOIN DT is now averaging in low-mid 60's on my meter vice 80~ ish when pointed to 230'...however 230' loses ch 26 so 200' is the compromise for now...all analog: OPB Ch 10 almost "perfect", Ch 20: snow ,grain but, now w/ sound, sometimes "watchable", ch 26: light grain, no snow good sound now)...all the other analog repeaters and Spanish channels not a concern ...

Tv is new Toshiba Regaza 120HZ/1080 46" REGAZA model

> looks like warren elec does NOT have one for Ch 20 (KOXI-CA in this case)

Model 0585-1 can be tuned for any channel in the range 14-29.
Warren (or another vendor) might be able to tune one to
channel 20 for you. Probably not something you want to attempt
yourself unless you have access to a suitable spectrum analyzer.

Method #4: rotator

If there is room in your attic, you could consider a rotator.
Drawbacks: you can't watch/record two stations in different
directions at the same time. A DVR can't work the rotator.

...room for rotator, and don't watnt the wiring/control and never saw a spectrum analyzer, let's be real, I'll try my Weingard HD1080 antenna and see if KOXI-Ca (ch 20) can even be picked up strong, if "not" then no sense of second antenna...any other ideas:p

I got a call back from the station, ...and can confirm they ARE moving the station transmitters to the antenna farm over in PDX "sometime" in 2009. Also, they will "sometime" convert to DTV,.... best bet will be to align antenna to their low power signal after the move and then adjust "if needed" slightly to be sure other strong channels are the received the same...only possible "kink" will be R26GJ which is at 189' orientation for me and also low power, I seem to get "all channels" by having 200' alignment...so , I'll live w/ Ch 20 off "back of the antenna" for now and reorient in '09..thsnx for help!

When KOIN was off the air a couple hours two days ago (?), my CM7000 CECB got messed up. Channel 6.1 came back on my TR-40 but not on my CM7000. Then I saw that the CM had added a "new" channel 40.1 with the picture, but no station ID or EPG info.

Any ideas how to get 6.1 back again? I rescanned a few times, but it keeps giving me 40.1 with no PSIP instead of 6.1 with PSIP. I deleted all channels before I scanned, in case something was stuck in memory, and still no 6.1.

So, is 6.2 gone for good? It disappeared from my lineup sometime on Tuesday night (I think), and I haven't seen it since.

(Not that I'm complaining!)

> So, is 6.2 gone for good? It disappeared from my lineup
> sometime on Tuesday night (I think), and I haven't seen it since.
>
> (Not that I'm complaining!)

Dtvstream no longer shows PIDs for 6.2, so it is really gone,
at least at the moment. This looks promising.

The Titan TV listings now show a CBS KBNZ-LP 7.1 (40)
where 6.2 used to be. They still show KOIN 6.1
also on physical channel 40.

I wonder if the two physical channel 40s is what's keeping me from getting 6.1 back again. I'd already deleted 6.2.

Did you notice most of the stations went on (or is it off) daylight savings time today? A month early. I left my TR-40 on Fox and hoped it didn't link to CBS.

10.5 is showing bad pictures. I wonder if that means they are going to 5 channels.

> I wonder if the two physical channel 40s is what's keeping me
> from getting 6.1 back again. I'd already deleted 6.2.

I googled KBNZ-LP and found:

"KOIN has rebroadcasters in Bend (KBNZ-LP 7)"

"It's still only running 73 watts as KBNZ-LP from Awbrey Butte."

KOIN in Portland is 1,000 KW, according to message #1 in this thread.
So I wonder why Titan is showing KBNZ-LP?

> Did you notice most of the stations went on (or is it off)
> daylight savings time today? A month early.

It would be a switch from daylight savings time to standard time.
Perhaps the switch used to be in early October rather than late October
and someone's code hasn't been updated. I remember they did change
something a year and a half ago, but I forget which change happened when.
A couple more changes and we'll be on daylight time year around.
But switches always happen at 2-3am Sunday mornings, not on a Thursday.

> 10.5 is showing bad pictures. I wonder if that means they are going to
> 5 channels.

Oh please no!

Did a quick search through the thread and didn't see this come up but audio on 6-1, especially later at night is pretty bad. Not distorted but definitely scratchy.
I used to turn it to 6-2 sometimes which was always fine but can't do that anymore. Other channels are fine. This is the only problem one. Anyone else?

So, is 6.2 gone for good? It disappeared from my lineup sometime on Tuesday night (I think), and I haven't seen it since.

(Not that I'm complaining!)I noticed that in the last couple weeks since the football season started that they had been keeping 6.2 up and running during games, where they used to shut it down to help maintain good PQ for 6.1. As always, it resulted in lots of compression artifacting watching the games and I was ready to contact them to see what the deal was. Yesterday when I happened to check the KOIN web site to see what they had up for their schedule last night regarding the debate and their other programing, I noticed that they didn't even have 6.2 listed in their schedule any longer, so this is perhaps VERY good news! :cool:


Did a quick search through the thread and didn't see this come up but audio on 6-1, especially later at night is pretty bad. Not distorted but definitely scratchy.
I used to turn it to 6-2 sometimes which was always fine but can't do that anymore. Other channels are fine. This is the only problem one. Anyone else?In your searching you must have missed all the posts from way back regarding the "shaker" sounds from KOIN digital feeds. At times in the past it has been very bad, but over the last year or more they have seemed to keep it under control for the most part, as I've rarely heard much if any of it. I believe it's only on their local programming, ie not their primetime network feed. IIRC, it seemed to maybe only be an issue for people using PLII receiver output? I too have recently heard a bit of it though so hopefully they will keep it in check. No one from the station ever really acknowledged it but clearly they were/are aware of it. With their new "look" and graphics, and what looks like perhaps the dropping of 6.2 now I'd guess they are gearing up for the impending switchover and maybe there could even be some new, more recent vintage encoding equipment coming for them as well (keeping fingers crossed!!). We'll see...


ron

Thanks Ron- I did miss it. However, it seems to be pretty strong at times lately. It was happening last night during Craig Ferguson's show around 1am. I've noticed it during Letterman occasionally too. 6.2 never had the issue but now is not an option.
I can't imagine using PLII in a receiver is the cause. This is a setting that simply "spreads" around whatever sound is coming into the receiver. Might make it more noticeable, but the issue would still be there.

Davemusic writes:
> Did a quick search through the thread and didn't see this
> come up but audio on 6-1, especially later at night is pretty
> bad. Not distorted but definitely scratchy. I used to turn it
> to 6-2 sometimes which was always fine but can't do that anymore.

5.1 vs stereo?

How is the sound on analog channel 6 for you?

Is it just specific programs that have the problem?
Commercials too?

I get clicks/pops coming out of commercials. Otherwise I haven't
noticed bad audio on KOIN, but I haven't watched late night on
KOIN recently.

I sometimes get terrible sound on KOPB's Oregon subchannel.
Some of this could be described as scratchy.

KGW had some scratchy noises last November.

Ron writes:
> With their new "look" and graphics, and what looks like perhaps the
> dropping of 6.2 now I'd guess they are gearing up for the impending
> switchover and maybe there could even be some new, more recent vintage
> encoding equipment coming for them as well (keeping fingers crossed!!).

IIRC KOIN recently changed chief engineers. Might have something to
do with some of these changes?

Looks to me that KOIN sometimes has reception problems from the
network. KPTV too.

5.1 vs stereo?
How is the sound on analog channel 6 for you?
Is it just specific programs that have the problem?
Commercials too?
I get clicks/pops coming out of commercials. Otherwise I haven't
noticed bad audio on KOIN, but I haven't watched late night on
KOIN recently.
I sometimes get terrible sound on KOPB's Oregon subchannel.
Some of this could be described as scratchy.
KGW had some scratchy noises last November.
IIRC KOIN recently changed chief engineers. Might have something to
do with some of these changes?
Looks to me that KOIN sometimes has reception problems from the
network. KPTV too.

Good questions! I believe I have noticed it more (only?) on stereo broadcasts. KOIN 6 is unlike ch. 2 or 8 in that they don't broadcast exclusively in 5.1-Letterman and Ferguson are stereo only shows. I could swear I've noticed it on their 11pm news too.
Commercials I'm not sure about. In the words of Mrs. Palin, "I'll have to get back to you on that one."
It's definitely different than the clicks/pops you're talking about. I get those as well when programs are starting or back from a commercial.
I will also listen to the analog outs out of my LG 3100a Hi Def receiver to see if it is the same. Normally I've got the optical cable feed into my Yamaha receiver.
But, since this is the only problem channel, it must be something on their end.

Thanks Ron- I did miss it. However, it seems to be pretty strong at times lately. It was happening last night during Craig Ferguson's show around 1am. I've noticed it during Letterman occasionally too. 6.2 never had the issue but now is not an option.
I can't imagine using PLII in a receiver is the cause. This is a setting that simply "spreads" around whatever sound is coming into the receiver. Might make it more noticeable, but the issue would still be there.It seems to me that back when we were debating this issue (if it's the same one..) that it only mainifested itself for people listening to the stereo feed as matrixed PLII. IIRC, with PLI or stereo settings people couldn't hear it. I've had my amp set to PLII (for all non 5.1 feeds) ever since I got it seven years ago so I always heard it. I have heard some of it recently on their late news and some Letterman I believe. Not too bad though. At times in the past it was pretty much unlistenable. No idea what causes it but I always thought it was something funky in their audio set up at the station that seemed to keep "drifting" out of sync maybe since they would fix it, and it would slowly creep back in...


ron

Thanks Ron- I did miss it. However, it seems to be pretty strong at times lately. It was happening last night during Craig Ferguson's show around 1am. I've noticed it during Letterman occasionally too. 6.2 never had the issue but now is not an option.
Yes, I've had exactly the same problem, though I've never noticed it on HD programming like Letterman--only on upconverted SD network broadcasts, like last night's Ferguson show. I get it on both my TiVo HD and Winegard RC1010, using the analog stereo outputs from each. And as you say, 6.2 was immune from this issue, but is no longer an option.

I'm told that Weather Plus on KGW 8.2 is on the way out. NBC's purchase of the Weather Channel this year was the reason given.

Any suggestions what you'd like to see on 8.2?

I'm told that Weather Plus on KGW 8.2 is on the way out. NBC's purchase of the Weather Channel this year was the reason given.

Any suggestions what you'd like to see on 8.2?Are you joking? I'd like to see nothing on 8.2..... Please give us quality, compression artifact free images on 8.1 ONLY. The transition is nearing completion. It's time to step up and make professional images that the station can be proud of!


ron

Today I purchased a Zinwell ZAT-970A at Albertsons, priced at $49.99 ($9.99 with coupon). The associate at the Customer Service counter said she's sold three of these. They had perhaps seven on display.

I've just set the Zinwell up with a Staples Standard Size #1 Indoor Antenna ("The Paper Clip Antenna") as my RCA ANT111 antenna cable center conductor is too large for the RF input fitting.

At the moment my signal for channel 2.1 is 85% intensity and 90% quality; 6.1 is 80%/100%; 8.1/2 are 90%/100%; 10.1/2/3/4/5 are 90%/100%; 12.1 is 90%/100%; 22.1/2/3/4 are 30%/90%; 32.1 is 70%/75%; 49-1 is 50%/70%. I'm in North Portland, line-of-sight about 5 miles from the broadcast towers. The Zinwell receives all the channels my Zenith DTT901 receives.

Are you joking? I'd like to see nothing on 8.2..... Please give us quality, compression artifact free images on 8.1 ONLY. The transition is nearing completion. It's time to step up and make professional images that the station can be proud of!


ron
Ditto.

Any suggestions what you'd like to see on 8.2?

I don't care as long as it takes up as much bandwidth from the HD channel as possible so HDTV will never start looking as good as it used to! :p

however the reality is 8.2 is a revenue stream that won't be turned off due to the wishes of a very few HDTV aficionados. In fact rumor has it that you'll see more sub channels in the near future. Not sure how many subs but be sure you'll never see full HDTV in the Portland market, or any market for that matter. (To much $$ at stake.)

however the reality is 8.2 is a revenue stream that won't be turned off due to the wishes of a very few HDTV aficionados. In fact rumor has it that you'll see more sub channels in the near future. Not sure how many subs but be sure you'll never see full HDTV in the Portland market, or any market for that matter. (To much $$ at stake.)Great :rolleyes: NBC finally stops their ridiculous "promo bug" on the primetime feed so I can watch their shows once again, only to find that the local station is planning to rape the feed OPB style. Who would watch that crap? Don't any of these decision makers actually even watch their own programming? What happened to the days of pride in one's product? I guess we can be lucky that CSN carries all the Blazer HD home games so we don't have to watch them in pixelvision on KGW. I think it's about time to start lobbying the Blazers to dump KGW after the contract expires so we can get a real station that cares about the product to air the broadcast games.


ron

Just did a quick google search and it looks like the Blazers KGW contract may end after this season according to a notation at the bottom of this article in the Portland Business Journal about the CSN deal back in April '07:

"KGW-TV still holds an over-the-air broadcast contract to show Blazers games for the next two seasons."

http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/stories/2007/04/23/daily14.html?b=1177300800%5E1452078

So now would be the time to get after it I'd say. On a side note, man is google insidious. When I did the search looking for the info on the KGW contract, one of the links it spit out was to the post I just made above.... Hopefully KGW will be getting alot more BAD PRESS on this in cyberspace, and elsewhere in the media for that matter. Hmmm a little leverage maybe... I seriously dislike Canzano but It would probably be worth it to plant the bug in his ear too. We all know what a "crusader for the people" he deems himself to be. Just the kind of pit bull the situation could use. I'm sure KGW could care less about a pip like him but he does create some waves that tend to get noticed. I mean, he's done a great job of making hundreds of thousands of Blazer fans think Comcast is a villain in that deal. I can just see the title on his first piece now, "KGW plans making Blazer fans feel a little short changed - Having trouble figuring out who that blur driving to the hoop was in the Blazer game last night? You're not alone...."

PS: Don't worry Scott, when I send the letters to Larry Miller at the Blazers, the KGW offices and Canzano I won't mention any names ;)


ron

every station across the country is trying to figure out how to utilize the sub channels for profit.

Your making a huge assumption that these managers care more about the quality over quantity. That work ethic left television when media deregulation took over. It's all about meeting your profit margins.

As far as the Blazers I think KGW has them for another three years.

And, Canzano is a shill for the Blazers.

Yes, I've had exactly the same problem, though I've never noticed it on HD programming like Letterman--only on upconverted SD network broadcasts, like last night's Ferguson show. I get it on both my TiVo HD and Winegard RC1010, using the analog stereo outputs from each. And as you say, 6.2 was immune from this issue, but is no longer an option.

Watching the 11pm HD news right now and the noise is there. Not the worst it's ever been but you can hear it. It's on the commercials too.

scottcorinna types:
> Any suggestions what you'd like to see on 8.2?

Assuming the .1 remains HD, then .2 should go away.
HD needs the full 19.3 Mbps available.

What about 1 HD during prime time, and 2 SD the rest
of the day?

CNBC would be useful, especially with the current crisis.

A lot of shows seems designed to use as much bandwidth as possible.
Gotta show off all the fancy graphics toys, even though it is
massively distracting and annoying and even creates motion sickness. :-(
A weather subchannel done right (static images changing say
once every 5 seconds or so) wouldn't need much bandwidth.

> however the reality is 8.2 is a revenue stream that won't be turned
> off due to the wishes of a very few HDTV aficionados.

So explain all the subchannels on OPB. Presumably the extra programming
costs them more money, and probably doesn't bring in much extra pledge
money. They now need three full channels to have enough bandwidth
for all the stuff they're cramming into one.

It is not just "a very few HDTV aficionados". Artifact free SD is
far better than HD with constant artifacts. And the SD subchannels
are full of artifacts too. Try OPB's "Oregon channel" sometime.
And most (all?) of the SD subchannels in Portland has been softened
to death. It is possible for SD to look good, but not in Portland.
I'm not talking about a minor problem, this stuff is orders of magnitude
worse than it should be.

-------

Several channels have problems with glitches from the network feed.
What's the deal with that?

>> So explain all the subchannels on OPB. Presumably the extra programming costs them more money, and probably doesn't bring in much extra pledge money. They now need three full channels to have enough bandwidth for all the stuff they're cramming into one.<<

OPB receives the extra programming from PBS for a very low cost compared to commercial broadcasters. I think they may also have a mandate from the federal government as to how they utilize HDTV. (Not 100% sure on that.)

>>It is not just "a very few HDTV aficionados". Artifact free SD is
far better than HD with constant artifacts. And the SD subchannels
are full of artifacts too. Try OPB's "Oregon channel" sometime.
And most (all?) of the SD subchannels in Portland has been softened
to death. It is possible for SD to look good, but not in Portland.
I'm not talking about a minor problem, this stuff is orders of magnitude
worse than it should be.<<

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. Evan with all the new HD purchasers, Portland still only has a 25% HDTV penetration and all those new HDTV owners think an artifact is something you see in a museum.

I talk to an awful lot of new HDTV owners and the biggest question asked is way isn't my favorite show/soap opera in HD. Sad but true. Thank God Oprah is now in HD.;)

There's no federal mandate on how OPB utilizes their HD signal. You have to blame that on them, not the government. As for why they degrade their HD signal so much with all their subchannels, I believe it's all about the digital transition. Only a small percentage of people have HDTV, but as of January, everybody who watches over the air will be able to receive all their subchannels. Having a larger piece (more channels) of a small pie (local reception) is more important to them (in my opinion) than having a higher quality piece of an even smaller pie.

And that's my point. Local stations are going to make $$ any way they can and having 4 channels to potentially draw revenue from when they used to have only one...

Just sayin.

>> It is not just "a very few HDTV aficionados". Artifact free SD is
>> far better than HD with constant artifacts. And the SD subchannels
>> are full of artifacts too. Try OPB's "Oregon channel" sometime.
>> And most (all?) of the SD subchannels in Portland has been softened
>> to death. It is possible for SD to look good, but not in Portland.
>> I'm not talking about a minor problem, this stuff is orders of magnitude
>> worse than it should be.

> I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. Evan with all the new HD purchasers,
> Portland still only has a 25% HDTV penetration

You missed my point entirely. I'm not saying that there are a lot of
"HDTV aficionados", I'm saying that the artifacts show up on SD shows
as well as HD shows, and on SD displays as well as HD displays.
Sometimes they even show up on NTSC broadcasts. They affect everyone,
not just "HDTV aficionados".

I'm not talking about the minor problem that requires close observation,
or switching to the good hifi speakers, cranking the sound way up and
listening carefully to hear a slight noise. I'm talking about the cases
where the noise is so bad you can't make out the dialog, or the audio
goes away completely, and when you record the rerun the next day it is
exactly the same. Or when the picture is so bad you can't make out
anything. Or it crashes the decoder.

People depend on TV being reliable. For example, getting info on
tornados and hurricanes. It's not like you can wait for the DVD to come
out.

> and all those new HDTV owners think an artifact is something you see in a museum.

So what do these new HDTV owners call it when the picture and sound
are total crap?

Sorry, I did miss your point.

>>So what do these new HDTV owners call it when the picture and sound
are total crap?<<

Way do you think it's called ComCrap instead of Comcast.;)

Sorry, I did miss your point.

>>So what do these new HDTV owners call it when the picture and sound
are total crap?<<

Way do you think it's called ComCrap instead of Comcast.;)

Since this is the OTA thread, it sounds like this one isn't Comcast's fault.

I was referring to new HD owners. Very few have hooked up an antenna to their new TVs. Their signal is either cable or satellite. All though on a side note both get their signals via fiber optic directly from each station. The same signal that hits the local transmitters.

We in this forum know what we're looking at or at least have a pretty good idea. However we are a very, very small group and the vast majority of viewers haven't a clue. Their more interested in the local news anchors hair than whether pixelation occurs on a whip pan during a Blazer game.

So when it comes to the broadcaster the engineering side applauds groups like this but the sales side just shrugs and goes about their business. Guess which group has more sway in a Dept. head meeting.

We can complain until we're blue in the face but broadcasters decisions will always be revenue driven.

A man in another forum here claimed to have been watching HDTV for four years and has never seen a single artifact.

A bunch of us inquired how that was possible and it became frighteningly clear that after four years this guy still didn't know what was in his living room. He claimed that the UCLA vs. Fresno State game looked a little soft but didn't have any of these "artifact" things we were whining about. We had to tell him that game wasn't even in HD -- didn't he see the pillars on the side? Of course he did but then he claimed that not all HD is 16:9. There's lots of programming in HD on ESPN that's not 16:9 (it's got the things on the side) and while some of it doesn't look very good, it's still HD.

We gave up at that point. Some people don't want to understand this stuff.

We can complain until we're blue in the face but broadcasters decisions will always be revenue driven.

Then we just need to keep subchannels unprofitable. It worked for USDTV. It worked for ABCNow. It worked for the The Tube. It worked for Weather Plus.

What's the next great idea for a subchannel?

scowl your absolutely right, I would go evan further and say most people don't want to understand this stuff.

I will correct one thing, Weather Plus was semi profitable, it died because NBC bought The Weather Channel.

I was watching the preseason Blazers game the other night on NBC and thought that their PQ was much better than a lot of the stuff that had been shown on KGW. I am not sure if scowl recorded it and checked it frame by frame, but it seems to me they put forth some effort to make it look better than the Olympics mess.

No, I didn't look at the game frame by frame. The picture quality was good enough that I was always able to see what was happening unlike during the Olympics. I think even the Sunday Night Football has looked better this season. There's still a whole lot of mosquito noise but there's rarely any serious blocking.

every station across the country is trying to figure out how to utilize the sub channels for profit.

Your making a huge assumption that these managers care more about the quality over quantity. That work ethic left television when media deregulation took over. It's all about meeting your profit margins.

As far as the Blazers I think KGW has them for another three years.I don't assume that at all. Quite the contrary in fact. It's obvious that they don't since we're having this discussion :).

The Blazer preseason game was not too bad the other night. Definitely better than the Olympics. From the sounds of it, there were some network infrastructure related issues that contributed to the Olympics mess as well as the SNF last season. The SNF has looked far better this year too, where last season many of the games were just a waste of time. So perhaps they've figured something out on the network side. But add an 8.3 on this end and I bet that Blazer game and SNF are right back in the crapper.

Hey, if they come up with some new high zoot encoder that can truly output multiple streams without degradation more power to them. I have nothing against sub channels per se. Only if they ruin the HD feed I want to watch :D


ron

I will correct one thing, Weather Plus was semi profitable, it died because NBC bought The Weather Channel.
According to these articles, that wasn't the case, they shut it down because it wasn't profitable, there wasn't enough interest from affiliates so that they could generate national ad revenue.

http://www.tvweek.com/news/2008/10/nbc_shutting_down_weather_plus.php


NBC News President Steve Capus informed the on- and off-air Weather Plus staff headquartered at CNBC facilities in Englewood, N.J., Tuesday morning that the operation would be phased out in stages through the end of the year.

Mr. Capus said the NBC affiliates board had notified the network last week of its desire to disband the partnership in which the 10 NBC owned-and-operated stations and approximately 80 affiliates have been participating. Only the NBC O&Os had signed on for the online aspect of Weather Plus. “That’s been, quite frankly, frustrating on our part,” Mr. Capus told TelevisionWeek Tuesday.

He said that jointly owned but locally focused Weather Plus would have come to this end even without NBC Universal’s acquisition of a minority stake in The Weather Channel...
“This is a tough business,” Mr. Capus said. “It has not been a profitable business.”

“It’s a very difficult business climate these days. You can’t ignore those realities,” Mr. Capus said. “Even if the Weather Channel acquisition hadn’t happened, this was a business that was challenged. We were going to have to face that at some point.”


http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?fa=Articles.showArticleHomePage&art_aid=92266

NBC is turning off one of the most highly recognized multicast local digital networks, NBC Weather Plus.

The network now says there isn't money to be made here. And so the four-year-old brand will go away, and 10 NBC-owned stations and 80 affiliates will be looking for other products to fill their local digital channels.

Reading the lines -- and between the lines - it's all about advertising, and the lack of it. NBC had better distribution versus other new local digital networks. But even in this brave new world of digital TV, it wasn't enough. As traditional TV syndication programmers know too well, when you don't have enough distribution, you can't get many national advertisers.

Networks are having enough trouble getting people to watch their regular programming. Why would they put any money into a channel that few people are going to watch?

If local stations were smart, they'd produce a half-hour version of their local news broadcast and run it in a loop on a subchannel 24 hours a day. It would be a local version of "Headline News". It wouldn't compete with their regular length news broadcast very much and they'd have no problem selling ads for it.

> he claimed that not all HD is 16:9

Are you claiming that HD must be 16:9 ? Granted a lot of
the 4:3 pillarboxed stuff is SD that has been scaled up,
but it doesn't follow that all of it is.

If they scan an academy-ratio film at 1440x1080 and broadcast
it in 1080i pillarbox, do you consider that to not be HD?

The thing that bugs me is when they take something that
started out as 16:9 (or other widescreen) and crop it
to 4:3 and then broadcast it pillarboxed into 16:9.

But it gets worse. Recently they've started taking
widescreen, letterboxing it into 4:3, and then pillarbox
that into 16:9. If your decoder is flexible enough you
can zoom it to fill whichever format screen you have,
but you've lost a lot of resolution.

Commissioner Adelstein to Visit Portland, Yakima, Spokane and Seattle for DTV Outreach

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-286023A1.pdf

PORTLAND
WHEN: October 20, 12:15-1 PM
WHERE: Urban League Multi-Cultural Senior Center
5325 NE MLK Blvd.
Portland, OR 97211

WHEN: October 20, 2-3:30 PM
WHERE: Native American Cultural Center
Portland State University
710 SW Jackson Street
Portland, OR 97201

If anyone cares, the MPEG header KOIN is sending now says 1080 lines instead of 1088. Apparently it was upsetting some ATSC receivers so they changed it.

If anyone cares, the MPEG header KOIN is sending now says 1080 lines instead of 1088. Apparently it was upsetting some ATSC receivers so they changed it.


I'd probably care if I still had the Insignia 32" plasma I had briefly a couple of months ago. Several people -- including me -- noted that this model would not display KOIN 6.1 correctly (black screen, with audio) and the best theory behind this was that the set couldn't deal with the extra 8 lines. I returned this set a week after I purchased it, mostly for this reason. I wonder if Insignia plasmas (the 32" model, anyway) are suddenly displaying KOIN correctly?

(All of the discussion about this happened a couple of days before the AVS server crash and is lost, as far as I know.)

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/10/14/nbc-replaces-weather-plus-with-universal-sports/

Just saw this on engadgethd.com.

Picked up the 1852 UFO antenna from Radio Shack. I live by Nike Campus about 5 miles from the TV antennas. Reception is amazing. I'm truly impressed!

Commissioner Adelstein to Visit Portland, Yakima, Spokane and Seattle for DTV Outreach

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-286023A1.pdf

PORTLAND
WHEN: October 20, 12:15-1 PM
WHERE: Urban League Multi-Cultural Senior Center
5325 NE MLK Blvd.
Portland, OR 97211

WHEN: October 20, 2-3:30 PM
WHERE: Native American Cultural Center
Portland State University
710 SW Jackson Street
Portland, OR 97201

I don't get the paper, but I saw an online article that 40 people attended the meeting at the senior center. The article said 22% of Portland is OTA -- that group of 40 was an expensive start, it sure won't justify their expenses on a per trainee basis!! It makes no sense to me; they should have had "train the trainer" sessions instead, to get some leverage on the large task ahead.

KOPB digital ch27 is missing in action. Signal strength 0 signal quality 0.
It's dead, Jim. Analog ch10 is fine.

Anyone know what's going on?

Same here, Channel 8 as well. May be a tower upgrade issue.

KXPG is getting ready for the digital transition early and they might shutoff there analog sometime in november and switch there digital to 22 and they had to get a new antenna placed up on the tower and they should be back online at any time for today
KOPB, KGW are on the same tower

Um, what's up with OPB? It's completely dead. Anytime I try and watch any OPB channel, it locks up Beyond TV. All other OTA channels are fine.

skihoodoo writes:

> KXPG is getting ready for the digital transition early and they might shutoff there analog
> sometime in november and switch there digital to 22 and they had to get a new antenna placed up
> on the tower and they should be back online at any time for today
> KOPB, KGW are on the same tower

Thanks for the info. Is there something we can monitor to find out about
these planned outages ahead of time?

KOPB came back up yesterday, but it is down again today.

deviationer writes:

> Um, what's up with OPB? It's completely dead. Anytime I try and watch any OPB channel, it locks
> up Beyond TV. All other OTA channels are fine.

More tower work?

The analog channel 10 is fine. Of course that doesn't help if the show you want
to watch is only on OC, Create, or HD.

Looks like KOPB 27 came back between 3:30 and 4pm.
But for how long?

KGW's engineering says the power will be down between 8 a.m. and 4 p.m. for three days to allow work on the new antenna for KXPG. KGW's is the tower with the two soon to be three antennas sticking up from the top. Kind of like a trident.

I'm considering dumping Comcast and I'm wondering what luck I'll have with an antenna instead; anyone in Salem getting more than a few HD OTA stations?

I'm located in the Fairmount neighborhood in Salem, just south of downtown. It's slightly elevated which might help pull in Portland, but we're still 50+ miles away.

I was just down in Salem yesterday and my mom has an RV with an HD TV and an antenna and she oulling station from Eguene and Portland just fine, even with the antenna down. She lives in South Salem so I would imagine that you would be able to get decent reception where you are.

Looks like KOPB 27 transmitter was down again this morning (wed)
and came on between 9 and 10am (during NOVA).

The following doesn't include transmitter downtime:

KPTV 30 has been bad for weeks. 7-29 was the last good day for them.
Some of this also affected analog 12 for awhile. 12 seems ok now, but
30 is still bad.

KOIN 40 has been bad for the last 2 weeks. 10-15 was the last good day.

KATU 43 has been fine, except for one problem on 10-8.

KPDX 48 had problems in sept, but is ok this month (oct).

KPXG 4 varies a lot.

KOPB 27 varies a lot.

....wow. What a difference a couple of years makes. Looking back on this thread, pages 1-20 or so, it was all about failing equipment at stations causing blackouts, lack of any kind of content to show off to guests, etc etc. I've been either with Dish or Comcast (now) since then. I know there are still issues, but this has been a pretty smooth revolution in my opinion.

....wow. What a difference a couple of years makes. Looking back on this thread, pages 1-20 or so, it was all about failing equipment at stations causing blackouts, lack of any kind of content to show off to guests, etc etc. I've been either with Dish or Comcast (now) since then. I know there are still issues, but this has been a pretty smooth revolution in my opinion.

You think that because you don't have a Windows Media Center tuner.

For those concerned about the Circuit City news, it appears that no Oregon stores and only one in Washington, their Outlet Store in Federal Way, will be closing by December 31st.

Yesterday, KPXG filed a request with the FCC. They plan to flash-cut channel 22 from analog to digital on December 3.

- Trip

That would be nice to get rid of real frequency 4 a couple months early.

I live in SE 122nd and Powell. I use Terk HDTVa Indoor Amplified Antenna and my TV is Toshiba 37RV530U.

I can receive most dtv channels except for 6-1 and 32-1. I wonder what is wrong with my Antenna or TV. I got strong signals from 2-1, 8-1, 10-1 series, 12-1, 22-1 series, 24-1 series, and 49-1, but no signal at all for 6-1 and 32-1.

I really have no clue what's going on. Any suggestion is appreciated. Thank you!

ccheng64 welcome to the group.

Most people on this board aren't fans of the Terk antennas.

That being said you may be just a wee bit far out to use an indoor antenna. If you want to try another indoor antenna the Silver Sensor is one of the more popular.

http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=202573624&listingid=28988994&dcaid=17902

If you want to spend a little more a outdoor VHF/UHF combo would be the way to go. The Feb changeover to DTV will move a few stations from the UHF band down to VHF. (KGW, KOPB, KPTV)

Keep posting your progress and you'll get lots of help here.

KGW is having problems both HD and SD. It just started during the Blazer game. :eek:

I have a Terk HDTVa as well, and it does fine 14.5 miles south of the towers. Occasionally, it pulls in Corvallis and Salem off the back end, even. I get 6 and 32, although there are times when just about every station was off the air for tower work or wildly fluctuating. If it's really jumpy, the Zenith CECB will hold the picture when others won't. Nothing is line of sight for me. And that could be your problem, if you're in a shadow. But more likely, it's tower work. I did start with a long cable so I could try out different locations for the antenna; it's a different sweet spot than for analog, not what I expected. I'm not going to bother with big antenna decisions until next summer.

I think the Terk works fine in the metro area. My homemade coathanger antennas work well, too; I kept the Terk only because the amplification helped in my worst room, ground floor away from towers. I've since moved the Terk to the attic garage, which helps with microwave and airplane interference. It also lets me fully extend the rabbit ears without worrying about bumping the antenna.

I'd say experiment with different locations for your antenna, or see if things improve, in case it's tower work.

My Zat970A has had trouble with KGW's signal. The Zat shows deep fluctuations on both meters, quality and intensity; it's unusual for quality to fall below 100. The Zat finds the picture within 30 seconds, but loses it now and then, and the picture is pretty fuzzy. My CM7000 shows 100 on the meter and no loss of picture, but it's not up to usual S-Vid quality; the weatherman's suit is a flashing moire pattern. :rolleyes:

Thank you, Scottcorinna.

I ran the channel search on my TV this weekend again and I finally found 6-1 and 32-1. It is really weird. When I first got my new TV in October, I ran the search again and again but couldn’t find these 2 channels at all. I don’t know what changed but I am happy to catch all of the channels now.

I think Terk works fine for UHF, but I do know that some people think it is weak for VHF signals. The antenna I bought is amplified. I notice that the signal is stronger when I turn on the amplifier switch.

Compare to other big cities, we don’t have many DTV channels here. My friend in Bay area, CA can watch 40+ DTV channels. I hope we will get more channels after Feb, 2009. I wonder if HGTV will be over the air sometimes.

My next goal is to get free satellite TV programs. :)

I wonder if HGTV will be over the air sometimes.

Never.

Cable channels have deals with cable companies where they get paid per subscriber. They wouldn't undercut themselves by putting their station up OTA.

- Trip

Thank you, Scottcorinna.

I ran the channel search on my TV this weekend again and I finally found 6-1 and 32-1. It is really weird. When I first got my new TV in October, I ran the search again and again but couldn’t find these 2 channels at all. I don’t know what changed but I am happy to catch all of the channels now.

It may be that when you ran the first search KOIN was working on their antenna. A lot of time and money is being spent by the locals getting ready for Feb. 17th.

I know the bill at KGW is right around $5 million for the switch to HDTV. Give or take a million.

I got a Zenith ZTT901 recently and started watching OTA DTV broadcasts. I have encountered 2 problems:

1. I don't seem to be able to receive 2-1 (KATU). It keeps saying "no signal" and gives me a blank screen.

2. KOIN HD (6-1) always comes in 4:3. I can't seem to be able to get it to switch to 16:9. Since it is a HD channel, shouldn't it be in widescreen by default?

The Cal @ OSU football game today was not high definition on KATU-DT, in fact, I had seen earlier this week on the ESPN/ABC College Football web site that it was not listed as an HD broadcast... but right after the game ended I switched to ESPN-HD and they showed a highlight from the game in full widescreen HD! Later, in their College Football Scoreboard show, ESPN showed many highlights from Cal @ OSU in full HD widescreen. So obviously the game was produced in HD and beamed back to Bristol, Conn. in full HD. Can anybody explain to me why none of the ABC network stations (from Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado, to all points west including Alaska & Hawaii) broadcast the game in HD? I don't get it.

So obviously the game was produced in HD and beamed back to Bristol, Conn. in full HD.
ESPN regularly sends HD highlights from several games to the network for SportsCenter even when the games are being broadcast in SD. They use a single sattelite feed to send small clips which is very cheap to do. They also do this for NFL games.

Can anybody explain to me why none of the ABC network stations (from Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado, to all points west including Alaska & Hawaii) broadcast the game in HD? I don't get it.
Because it wasn't carried in HD. ABC/ESPN is set up to broadcast a limited number of college games in HD. The system they use to show clips from games produced in HD but not broadcast in HD is a clever idea.

> That would be nice to get rid of real frequency 4 a couple months early.

Channel 54 is already gone.

> Compare to other big cities, we don't have many DTV channels here.
> My friend in Bay area, CA can watch 40+ DTV channels. I hope we
> will get more channels after Feb, 2009. I wonder if HGTV will be
> over the air sometimes.

Does your friend get HGTV OTA?

> 1. I don't seem to be able to receive 2-1 (KATU). It keeps saying
> "no signal" and gives me a blank screen.

KATU 2-1 is physical channel 43, have you tried channel 43? (assuming
the Zenith ZTT901 lets you do that)

What kind of antenna are you using?

> 2. KOIN HD (6-1) always comes in 4:3. I can't seem to be able to get
> it to switch to 16:9. Since it is a HD channel, shouldn't it be in
> widescreen by default?

Yes, KOIN 6-1 (physical channel 40) is 1080i widescreen. If the
show/commercial is 4:3 it gets pillarboxed.

ABC/ESPN is set up to broadcast a limited number of college games in HD.It doesn't sound like a technical limitation at all, it sounds purely monetary. They will not pay to broadcast a regional game in HD that is on ABC only, but they will for regional games carried live by both ABC and ESPN simultaneously. (The other two 3:30pm EST games were HD on both ABC and ESPN in other parts of the country.)

So they produce and record the Cal-OSU game in HD, but they will only pay the higher satellite expense to send a few minutes of highlights in HD back to ESPN just so it looks nicer on their SportsCenter than it did on their network broadcast? That sucks.

I don't remember the last college football game on either ESPN or ESPN2 that wasn't broadcast in HD. It used to be more prestigious to be on the network than to be on cable. Now that the British Open golf is becoming an ESPN exclusive, it looks like ESPN is officially the top dog and ABC is the ugly runt.

> 1. I don't seem to be able to receive 2-1 (KATU). It keeps saying
> "no signal" and gives me a blank screen.

KATU 2-1 is physical channel 43, have you tried channel 43? (assuming
the Zenith ZTT901 lets you do that)

What kind of antenna are you using?

> 2. KOIN HD (6-1) always comes in 4:3. I can't seem to be able to get
> it to switch to 16:9. Since it is a HD channel, shouldn't it be in
> widescreen by default?

Yes, KOIN 6-1 (physical channel 40) is 1080i widescreen. If the
show/commercial is 4:3 it gets pillarboxed.

Never mind, I got it to work. The autoscan was not picking up 43. Once I got it to add that channel, it was fine.

Thanks!

It doesn't sound like a technical limitation at all, it sounds purely monetary. They will not pay to broadcast a regional game in HD that is on ABC only, but they will for regional games carried live by both ABC and ESPN simultaneously. (The other two 3:30pm EST games were HD on both ABC and ESPN in other parts of the country.)

So they produce and record the Cal-OSU game in HD, but they will only pay the higher satellite expense to send a few minutes of highlights in HD back to ESPN just so it looks nicer on their SportsCenter than it did on their network broadcast? That sucks.

I don't remember the last college football game on either ESPN or ESPN2 that wasn't broadcast in HD. It used to be more prestigious to be on the network than to be on cable. Now that the British Open golf is becoming an ESPN exclusive, it looks like ESPN is officially the top dog and ABC is the ugly runt.

Not that it answers your questions on point but I found this article by Ryan White in Friday's Oregonian interesting: http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/oregonian/tailgate/index.ssf?/base/sports/122663851353280.xml&coll=7

Insofar as ABC becoming the second tier provider in favor of ESPN for British Open and other premier events, consider that Disney probably makes a better return on its cable assets than broadcast. Want to get more viewers to sign up for ESPN on a cable provider? Put desirable programming on the subscription side.

Insofar as ABC becoming the second tier provider in favor of ESPN for British Open and other premier events, consider that Disney probably makes a better return on its cable assets than broadcast. Want to get more viewers to sign up for ESPN on a cable provider? Put desirable programming on the subscription side.

This is not surprising, since they are trying to get ESPN an exclusive on the BCS games:

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/article/125438

The BCS is considering a proposal from ESPN that would see all BCS bowl games, including the championship game, wind up on ESPN, sources familiar with the negotiations are saying. If the BCS ultimately accepts the bid, it would mark the first time all games in a major championship were not available on an over-the-air broadcast network. If the BCS opts to move to ESPN, it would continue a trend that has seen other leagues migrate playoff series exclusively from broadcast to cable.

It seems that veiwers are being pushed more and more to subscription services that are also ad supported. This is not a trend I want to see.

The DTV transition has been termed by some as, "America's transition to analog pay cable." Moves like these may only hasten this move. Why have free OTA HD when you can pay for analog SD? :rolleyes:

Also, getting ESPN HD on cable or sat. involves expenses well above the limited basic tier.

I noticed this as well:

If ABC/ESPN ultimately wins the bid and moves even one BCS game to ESPN, it would trigger a clause in its Rose Bowl contract that would allow it to immediately take the annual game in Pasadena from its home of 21 years on ABC to the cable channel.

Considering Oregon State's chances at the Rose Bowl this year and the relatively high OTA rate in Oregon, there could be a lot of unhappy people if this clause is enacted.

My CM7000 added two substations this week.

2.2 is a test pattern with the same audio as 2.1. I hope it is not going to be an SD duplicate of 2.1.

32.2 is back again, shows a signal but nothing there.

It doesn't sound like a technical limitation at all, it sounds purely monetary.

Yes. They are not PBS.

This is not surprising, since they are trying to get ESPN an exclusive on the BCS games:

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/article/125438



It seems that veiwers are being pushed more and more to subscription services that are also ad supported. This is not a trend I want to see.

The DTV transition has been termed by some as, "America's transition to analog pay cable." Moves like these may only hasten this move. Why have free OTA HD when you can pay for analog SD? :rolleyes:

Also, getting ESPN HD on cable or sat. involves expenses well above the limited basic tier.

I noticed this as well:



Considering Oregon State's chances at the Rose Bowl this year and the relatively high OTA rate in Oregon, there could be a lot of unhappy people if this clause is enacted.

Fox is still broadcasting the BCS (minus the Rose Bowl which is on ABC) so there's nothing to worry about for this year.

Go Beavs!

Anyone else have trouble for about 20 minutes during the Dallas/Washington game on Sunday (11/16/2008)?

There was a period of about 20 minutes where the SS was 100%, SQ was 100%, but symbol quality was 0-20%. Audio dropped out, video jumped... No other channels were having trouble, just NBC... after about 20 minutes it cleared up.

Right now, as of about 9:45pm, it seems to be 12.1 KPTV/FOX that's all over the board.


tun: ch=auto:30 lock=8vsb ss=89 snq=3 seq=100 dbg=22606-6389
dev: resync=7898 overflow=0
ts: bps=19391072 ut=74 te=967357 miss=76 crc=192
flt: bps=14465472
net: pps=1378 err=0 stop=0

tun: ch=auto:30 lock=8vsb ss=90 snq=46 seq=0 dbg=22634-6824
dev: resync=11722 overflow=0
ts: bps=19360992 ut=99 te=1384867 miss=88 crc=306
flt: bps=2511680
net: pps=254 err=0 stop=0



As comparison, KATU-DT 2.1, is flawless.


tun: ch=auto:43 lock=8vsb ss=98 snq=91 seq=100 dbg=23284-7970
dev: resync=0 overflow=0
ts: bps=19392576 ut=98 te=0 miss=0 crc=0
flt: bps=19392576
net: pps=0 err=0 stop=0



It's worth mentioning, to be clear, same results on all (4) tuners across both HDHR's... so it's likely not the fault of a single tuner or box.

> Right now, as of about 9:45pm, it seems to be 12.1 KPTV/FOX that's all over the board.

Fox ch30 has been hosed since 2008-08-05.

> so it's likely not the fault of a single tuner or box.

You're right, it's not. Either KPTV is putting out a bad signal or
someone is jamming them. Your numbers are especially bad.

> Right now, as of about 9:45pm, it seems to be 12.1 KPTV/FOX that's all over the board.

Fox ch30 has been hosed since 2008-08-05.
> so it's likely not the fault of a single tuner or box.

You're right, it's not. Either KPTV is putting out a bad signal or
someone is jamming them. Your numbers are especially bad.


Oddly, I was able to record Prison Break, same station, flawlessly, earlier in the week.. Whatever is going on is sporadic..

Although it seems to be a BIT better right now, I can see 100% swing in SEQ in the span of 5 seconds between samples..


tun: ch=auto:30 lock=8vsb ss=84 snq=76 seq=8 dbg=22236-8294
dev: resync=2 overflow=0
ts: bps=19392576 ut=89 te=4207 miss=10 crc=2
flt: bps=17323072
net: pps=1649 err=0 stop=0

tun: ch=auto:30 lock=8vsb ss=84 snq=75 seq=100 dbg=22206-8495
dev: resync=2 overflow=0
ts: bps=19392576 ut=93 te=4207 miss=10 crc=2
flt: bps=18043488
net: pps=1716 err=0 stop=0



Glad, at least, to know it's not just me...

For reference, I'm approximately 13 miles to the north of the transmitter hill, no direct line of sight, with a CM-4228 at approximately 20 feet up, <30ft cable run of thick quad-shield cable.

Channel 54 is already gone.

54 is back, not the old strong ghosty picture. The picture was rather dark, but in color and the audio was clear.

Tom Peterson used to say on his TV commercials "free is a very good price!"

Thursday morning while shopping at the Albertsons store in Milwaukie I noticed that the Zinwell ZAT-970A price had been reduced from $49.99 to $40.00. I grabbed one, swiped my NTIA coupon and this "purchase" was free!

Zinwell ZAT-970A?
Haven't heard of that one yet.

Zinwell ZAT-970A?
Haven't heard of that one yet.

The Zinwell ZAT-970A is still the only analog RF pass through CECB with functional event timers:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1048100

We are fortunate in this area to be able to purchase this product in a retail store.

But the CM7000 remote interferes with the Zat. That was enough of a misery that I ended up putting my TR40 (F103) back. The TR40 doesn't have the memory to fill up the guide for every channel, but then the Zat doesn't even have detailed descriptions for now/next. I think the TR40 guide fills up by real frequency, so it will improve when Channel 22 moves in a couple weeks, and then again in Feb when 8/10/12 move. As far as timers, losing the CBS lock isn't a problem at the moment, all stations were on the same time except KGW was a minute fast.

>> Channel 54 is already gone.

> 54 is back, not the old strong ghosty picture. The picture was
> rather dark, but in color and the audio was clear.

So now channel 4 is gone.

We now have a channel 16
16-1 is Home Shopping Network
16-2 is Bohemia
16-3 is listed as Jewlery

Thanks for the Portland local thread, it's great to see such relevant information. I'm looking at moving to OTA so I can stop paying Verizon $75 month for a bunch of channels I don't want and really poor quality DVR. They do have a consistently great picture though, and that is what is holding me back from going OTA.

I live within 2.7 and 3.4 miles of the radio towers between 60 and 72 degrees compass heading. I live in the Cedar Hills area. I've been told I should be able to pick up the signal easily. I've been through 2 inexpensive loop and ears indoor antennas (in various locations, both directly to the TV and via my media distribution panel), and found the passive one to provide a better signal, but it is still unwatchable. The analog channels are very grainy and sometimes wavy, the digital channels pixelate, drop audio, and sometimes don't come in at all. I spoke with some very helpful people at antennadirect, who suggested the signal may actually be too strong, and I should think about an attenuator. However, while most of my neighbors pay for some cable, dish, or FiOS service, I have seen several large chimney or roof mounted directional antennas installed, all pointed right toward the towers. My area is lower than the towers, and there are a lot of large trees between us and them. They aren't visible from the street despite our proximity.

So, does anyone have a suggestion on how I can determine what the right solution is for our location? We care primarily about the main networks and OPB - and channel 8 I believe is going to make our lives hard.

I've read a bit about checking the signal strength with a field strength meter... not sure I want to go right out and buy one until I have some confidence that I can actually get all these channels.

You can start by looking at some of the websites that evaluate what type of antenna you need based on your location. One of these is antennaweb (http://www.antennaweb.org)

You can start by looking at some of the websites that evaluate what type of antenna you need based on your location. One of these is antennaweb

Hi crossbeaux,

I guess I didn't say specifically _who_ said I should be able to use a small antenna. I checked antennaweb as well as tvfool, both suggest a yellow uhf antenna (small indoor). However those sites can't take into account the large trees in my area, and if the signal is too strong... they can't suggest something smaller than the small yellow (which appears to be the smallest category). So my question still stands, how do I find out if I need an attenuator b/c the signal is too strong? How do I tell if the trees or slightly lower position of my house mean I need a larger, directional antenna.

For reference, the NM of the channels I care about ranges from 60.8 to 80.7 (dB) and the Power ranges from -10.1 to 30.1 (dBm). Right now, I'm only interested in UHF (27-48), but post Feb 19, I'll be needing VHF 8 as well... stupid NBC.... sigh...

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8b98c989da

It is a good idea to only do the work once while getting your antenna system in place for the analog cut-off.

Ch 8, 10 & 12 will be moving back to VHF so while a UHF antenna may work now it could be cold in February when you have to add a VHF antenna.

Try the Antennacraft HDX1000 from www.solidsignal.com, the folks at OPB have reported good results with that antenna.

Bird



Hi crossbeaux,

I guess I didn't say specifically _who_ said I should be able to use a small antenna. I checked antennaweb as well as tvfool, both suggest a yellow uhf antenna (small indoor). However those sites can't take into account the large trees in my area, and if the signal is too strong... they can't suggest something smaller than the small yellow (which appears to be the smallest category). So my question still stands, how do I find out if I need an attenuator b/c the signal is too strong? How do I tell if the trees or slightly lower position of my house mean I need a larger, directional antenna.

For reference, the NM of the channels I care about ranges from 60.8 to 80.7 (dB) and the Power ranges from -10.1 to 30.1 (dBm). Right now, I'm only interested in UHF (27-48), but post Feb 19, I'll be needing VHF 8 as well... stupid NBC.... sigh...

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8b98c989da

Ch 8, 10 & 12 will be moving back to VHF so while a UHF antenna may work now it could be cold in February when you have to add a VHF antenna.

Try the Antennacraft HDX1000 from www.solidsignal.com, the folks at OPB have reported good results with that antenna.

Ah, yes good point. I've also been looking at the antennadirect CS1. The HDX1000 appears to claim better support for the lower VHF band (since I'm so close to the towers).

I'd still like to understand why I get such lousy reception with the rabit ears though, given that antennaweb and tvfool say they should work well, before I invest in hardware. The phone support guy at antennadirect didin't even try to sell me an antenna, he told me to "wrap a gum wrapper around a coathanger" :-)

> The HDX1000 appears to claim better support for the lower
> VHF band (since I'm so close to the towers).

After the switchover in Feb Portland will have no TV stations
on VHF-LO. We will need VHF-HI and UHF.

> I'd still like to understand why I get such lousy reception
> with the rabit ears though

Rabbit ears are normally used for VHF, not UHF. If they collapse
to a short enough length you can try them for UHF. However.
rabbit ears are about the least directional antenna around,
which means a weaker signal, and more importantly, more multipath
and more interference. You want "enough" signal strength (not too
much not too little), and as little multipath and interference
as possible. The stupid guides that try and predict what size
antenna to get are only looking at signal strength and ignoring
multipath and interference. What you want to do is get the
best, most directional antennas you can find. The consumer
ones don't cost all that much ($30-40 each) so you might as well
get the best. This will give you the strongest signal possible,
along with the least multipath and interference possible. If
the signal is too strong and overloads your tuner, it is easy
and inexpensive to attenuate it. Attenuators are approx $2
each, get a few and experiment to find out what dB value works
best. Lots cheaper than buying a signal level meter. You can
also attenuate the signal with a splitter, terminating any
unused outputs.

Consider PR-8800, CM 4228, DB-8, XG-91 for UHF; YA-1713 or Y10-7-13
for VHF-HI. You'll probably have to mail order them.

You can get weatherproof (*) RG6 quad shield coax with connecters already
attached at Lowes. Lowes and Home Depot carry some mounting hardware.

(*) Even so you'll need to replace the outdoor portion of the coax
every few years if your antenna is outside.

If you have an attic you can try putting the antennas there. Easier
and lower maintenance than outdoors.

> My area is lower than the towers, and there are a lot of large trees
> between us and them.

Ideally you would like your antennas 10 feet (or more) above the trees.
Towers are expensive. Try the attic or rooftop first.

> The HDX1000 appears to claim better support for the lower
> VHF band (since I'm so close to the towers).

After the switchover in Feb Portland will have no TV stations
on VHF-LO. We will need VHF-HI and UHF.


Ah right, I knew that... not sure why I mentioned VHF low.

> I'd still like to understand why I get such lousy reception
> with the rabit ears though

Rabbit ears are normally used for VHF, not UHF. If they collapse
to a short enough length you can try them for UHF. However.

I was being imprecise again, I've tried a couple different rabbit-ears with UHF loops, both with and without an amplifier. And yes, I knew they were unidirectional.

rabbit ears are about the least directional antenna around,
which means a weaker signal, and more importantly, more multipath
and more interference. You want "enough" signal strength (not too
much not too little), and as little multipath and interference
as possible.

Looks like I need to read up on techie bits, I'm not exactly sure what multipath means (reflections maybe?). I'll do some more technical research. Odd how even with engineering degrees, the real world still often falls outside the curriculum :-)


If the signal is too strong and overloads your tuner, it is easy and inexpensive to attenuate it.


OK, but how do I distinguish between a weak signal, multipath, interference, and a too-strong signal? Especially with digital - it just gets pixelated, drops audio or video, or gets nothing at all.


Consider PR-8800, CM 4228, DB-8, XG-91 for UHF; YA-1713 or Y10-7-13
for VHF-HI. You'll probably have to mail order them.


Thanks for the pointers, I'll take at them.

Ideally you would like your antennas 10 feet (or more) above the trees. Towers are expensive. Try the attic or rooftop first.

Heh... the trees are mostly Fir and Cedar, around the 80 foot mark. The closest ones are behind me, but there are some between me and the towers.

OK, so I did some more technical research:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html

The above is a great site. Unfortunately, after reading it I fear my cause may be hopeless. Between the trees, the skyline multi-path, the rain (attic likely not a good solution), and the slight valley I'm located in, despite being ~3 miles from the towers I just might not be able to get reliable OTA DTV. I think I did learn why nothing will work inside the house - foil backed insulation... that's right, I live in a Faraday cage... explains some of my cell phone reception issues as well I think...

I still may try an antenna in the attic, but something "above the trees" simply isn't practical (80 feet). I may try the yellow-pages as well, could be the local installers are aware of poor reception areas and could just tell me to cut my losses now.

I have to admit, I am surprised to see how difficult it can be to receive OTA DTV. While I really dislike the fees for my current FiOS TV, and I really miss my MythTV, I have to credit Verizon for excellent (and consistent) HD picture quality. I am a bit more understanding now of why so many people pay for one TV service or another.

Foil backed insulation sure won't help, but all may not be lost yet. If you have a room with a window facing the towers, you could see if that helps. Much is trial and error, finding the best spot. In one room, my best reception is with antenna in the middle of the room. VHF does better at going around obstacles than UHF, so when 8/10/12 move to their original frequencies, things could improve. I need rabbit ears for low VHF only; I get digital 7 and analog 8+ off the UHF portion.

Even with trees, it doesn't take much clear space for signals to get through, outside at least. None of my stations are LOS. I have a Terk HDTVa ($38 Amazon) for the room that gets signals only through multiple walls, and homemade coathanger antennas elsewhere. Reception is better for two stations when I turn the antenna backwards, even though the tower is in the same direciton as my other stations.

It is hard to know what reception will be, while stations are getting ready for transition. A station may cut power while another station does work. It's rare when a station tells us what's happening.

I currently have my Terk in the garage attic, not as high up as second story, but it improves reception.

> I was being imprecise again, I've tried a couple different
> rabbit-ears with UHF loops, both with and without an amplifier.

The loops (or *any* small indoor antenna) are also not very
directional, compared with a good directional antenna.
Directional requires a large antenna. Basic physics.

> Looks like I need to read up on techie bits, I'm not exactly sure
> what multipath means (reflections maybe?). I'll do some more
> technical research. Odd how even with engineering degrees, the
> real world still often falls outside the curriculum :-)

Yeah, when's the last time you had to find an eigenvalue? :-)

Multipath means multiple paths. Yes, from reflections. The different
paths arrive at different times due to the different path lengths.
With NTSC analog you get ghosts. ATSC demodulator chips can combat
this to some extent with tapped delay lines. If the multipath is
static (from a mountain, building, water tower, etc.), the chips can
often null it out. Dynamic multipath (from airplanes, trucks, buses, etc.)
is still a problem. Reflections come in from a different direction,
so a more directional antenna picks up less of them.

Same idea with interference. If the interference is coming from a
different direction, a more directional antenna will pick up less of it.
Another way to reduce interference is to filter out frequencies your
tuner doesn't need. For VHF-HI you can use a Pico Macom LPF-230
(Low Pass Filter 230 MHz) and HLSJ diplexor with the low port terminated
(or send it to your FM tuner). For UHF you can use Pico Macom LPF-700
and a UVSJ diplexor with the low port terminated. You might need to
use multiple diplexors in series to get enough attenuation. They make
better filters but no one sells them in the US. :-(

You can combine the VHF-HI and UHF antennas with a UVSJ diplexor,
but you might get better reception using an RF switch.

Keeping the bands separate and filtering out other frequencies
(especially FM radio) will reduce the possibility of overloading the
tuner, and reduces interference.

Charles W. Rhodes has written some articles about this:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/section/digital-tv

> OK, but how do I distinguish between a weak signal, multipath, interference,
> and a too-strong signal? Especially with digital - it just gets pixelated,
> drops audio or video, or gets nothing at all.

Easy with analog. A weak signal results in "snow". Multipath results
in "ghosts". Interference gives herringbone, streaks, etc.

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/interferencedex.html
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/tvibook.html
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

Figuring out what the problem is with ATSC is difficult. Most ATSC tuners
just give a single number. They might call it "signal strength" but it is
usually some form of quality measure. Some ATSC tuners give multiple
numbers, with one being actual signal strength. Example: see dlasher's
posting http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15110486&postcount=6855

>> ss=98 snq=91

signal strength = 98% signal-to-noise quality = 91%

With this info you can adjust the signal strength as needed.
With most tuners, you have to experiment and observe the results.

If you have a known source of multipath, especially dynamic multipath,
you can try to find an antenna that has a null in that direction.

hdtvprimer.com has computer simulations of some antennas:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w8800.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB8.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html

Note that Channel Master is coming out with a new revision of the cm4228,
most reviews are of the old version.

> Heh... the trees are mostly Fir and Cedar, around the 80 foot mark.
> The closest ones are behind me, but there are some between me and the towers.

Let's hope you don't need to be above them.
The ones behind you will help absorb reflections.

> Between the trees, the skyline multi-path, the rain (attic likely not a good solution)

I have the Winegard 8800 and 1713 in my attic, looking through a wood clapboard gable
which is often wet from the rain (no overhang), and they work great. From the roof I
can kind-of see the towers through the trees. I'm less than 5 miles from the towers.

> nothing will work inside the house - foil backed insulation

I have this also, but not in the attic.

> I really dislike the fees for my current FiOS TV

Given what they charge for this, it would be worthwhile to try OTA.
My 8800 and 1713 were approx $100 including shipping. Attenuators and
the diplexors are very cheap (shop around with google). The LPFs are
about $20-25 each, you can try it without them, the FM band is the
main thing to filter out. If you do it now you can use the analog
stations to diagnose any problems.

Some mail order places:

http://www.solidsignal.com
http://www.starkelectronic.com
http://www.summitsource.com
http://www.warrenelectronics.com

Konrad2,

Thanks for the information and the experience. I don't have a gable facing the right way, so at attic antenna would be looking through a single layer of composite roofing over OSB and 1x6 sheathing - very often wet... obviously :-) I'ts actually fairly easy to test from there though, so that will be my first attempt.

Regarding the filters... wouldn't a bandpass filter make more sense? Or is that what you were saying about better filters not being available in the US?

I appreciate the tips on identifying problems with the analog signal, I found similar information on another site - but I still don't know how to identify too powerful a signal... Maybe that is just trial and error with the attenuators after having worked the more obvious issues. I found the hdtvprimer site to be very useful.

So I think I will be giving this a shot... I do have some requirements though if I am going to stick with it:

- One stationary antenna
- Improved reliability post Feb 19
- No manual switch flipping or adjustments to get channels
- I don't watch anything live, and I don't want to have to
adjust the connections prior to every recording on the MythTV
box.

I'll poor over the various antenna recommendations I've received and pick the one that seems the best quality for the stations I care about. The advice has been great, thank you all for the assistance. I'm sure I'll have more questions going forward and I'll be sure to share the results here on the forum.

> attic antenna would be looking through a single layer of
> composite roofing over OSB and 1x6 sheathing

That's probably ok, especially given how close you are to the transmitters.
Problem roofs would be metal, tile, slate, ...

> Regarding the filters... wouldn't a bandpass filter make more sense?
> Or is that what you were saying about better filters not being available in the US?

Sure it would make sense. And companies in Germany, Asia, etc. make nice filters
with 40 or 50 dB attenuation as standard products. But I haven't found anyone in
the US that sells them.

http://www.soontai.com/list.htm
http://www.tratec.net/products/productlines.asp?id=10
http://www.tratec.net/products/TypeSearchSpecs.asp?id=1048&CallingForm='ProductLines.asp'
http://www.tratec.net/products/TypeSearchSpecs.asp?id=783&CallingForm='ProductLines.asp'
http://www.sinhantv.com/en/products.html
http://www.diytrade.com/directory/global/buy/leads/3074813/Band_Pass_Filter.html

You can have custom filters built in Canada. These cost at least $100 each.
Not bad for custom engineered products, but kinda spendy for something that
should be available off the shelf for $5-25.
http://www.tinlee.com

Adding multiple 20 dB FM traps helped my reception a lot. The other filtering
didn't help much (if any?) that I noticed. But they don't hurt, and ATSC
problems are very difficut to diagnose so I figured it was worth trying.

> One stationary antenna

Seperate VHF-HI and UHF antennas will have better performance than a
single combo antenna. The Portland transmitters are all grouped
together, so you should not need a rotator or additional antennas
pointing in different directions.

> No manual switch flipping or adjustments to get channels

You can combine the two antennas with a UVSJ diplexor. If you decide
to try the LPF-230, put it before combining the two signals together
or it will throw away your UHF. Same deal with a high pass filter on
the UHF antenna, you don't want it throwing away your VHF-HI.

Another problem I found was "common mode" FM hurting channel 10 analog.
(VHF-HI is the 1st harmonic of FM frequencies)
The FM traps and other normal filters don't take out common mode.
Adding a ferrite sleeve (from Norvac's, white plastic box with split
ferrite material inside, get the larger diameter hole. IIRC they run $2.75
each. Also available from mail order places, try google) around the coax
just before the tuner (wrap a rubber band around the coax to keep the ferrite
from sliding away, you want it near the tuner) fixed this. I don't know how
to detect this problem with ATSC. Another case of the fix is inexpensive and
doesn't hurt anything, so just do it. You may have noticed a lump on various
signal/data cables, these have ferrite factory installed.

Try the HDX1000 outside on your eave and if it doesn't work sell it on craigslist or give it to someone at church or the neighborhood drum circle.
This will take experimentation and will probably not succumb to analytical thought.

OK, so I'm pouring over antenna specs, trying to decide which I should start with. Thanks to everyone for the many recommendations. Here's the summary. I'm very close to the towers (3 miles) but I believe I have some skyline multipath to deal with. I care about the following post-transition channels (real channels, not virtual):

VHF-HI: 8, 10, 12
UHF: 33, 40, 43

All towers within 10 degrees of eachother. I'm looking to install the antenna in the attic, I have about 4 feet of clearance in the middle (composite shingle roof). While I would like to have only 1 antenna, it's starting to look like I may need two (one for VHF-HI and one for UHF), then combine them. If I place two in the attic, how far apart should they be?

Regarding specific atennas, I noticed that some of the UHF antennas also claim VHF-HI. So should I start with such an antenna and then get a separate yagi if I need help for VHF-HI? For instance, the highly recommended CM-4228 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=ANC4228) seems to be replaced by the 4228HD (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=4228-HD). A concern about both of these antennas is their range specification ~60 miles. The latter actually says 45-60 miles, while I am only 3 miles. In such a strong signal area, is this size antenna really the right way to go? I know I can attenuate the signal... but just want to make sure I'm starting off right.

As for the VHF-HI antenna's, I'm concerned about their size. The width isn't an issue since I'm only looking for channels 7-13, but the YA-1713 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=YA1713) or Y10-7-13 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=Y10-7-13)claim 100" and 120" boom lengths - is that the length of the antenna from front to back? That's much larger than I was originally thinking. So same question here, is this overkill for someone 3 miles from the towers?

Lastly, someone else had recommended the HDX1000 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HDX1000) as something PBS was having good luck with - but PBS will be changing back to VHF-HI post Feb-19... so that isn't of much value. In general though, am I likely to regret trying a combination VHF/UHF antenna?

I'm four miles from the towers and I get fine analog reception of even KATU on my cheap UHF yagi with all but two of the elements taken off. I think when you're this close to the towers, the antenna gain isn't really that important. In fact these high-gain antennas may be a problem because they'll be too directional and you'll only be able to pull in one cluster of towers and you'll get nothing if you point the antenna in between them. That's what my UHF antenna did until I took off most of the elements to make it less directional.

KPXG has a medium power ATSC station on channel 4 (I'm not sure if they're going to move to 20 or not) and my 100% UHF antenna pulls it in with no problems. I don't plan on switching antennas in February.

> I have about 4 feet of clearance in the middle

If you decide on one of the 8-bay type UHF antennas get the dimensions
and measure carefully. My 8800 barely fits in the middle.

> claim 100" and 120" boom lengths - is that the length of the antenna
> from front to back?

Yes. The YA-1713 is long, but isn't very tall (3"). I just have it
sitting on top of the insulation with a bit if extra insulation under
the front to tilt it up slightly.

If your attic has a lot of trusses, the YA-1713 or Y10-7-13
might be a problem. I don't have trusses, just a few studs
down the center. I have the 8800 leaning against one of them.
(again, tilted up slightly)

If you don't have room for a YA-1713 or Y10-7-13, the YA-6713 is
only 49.875" long. The performance isn't as good though.

Also consider your attic access. Some antennas come folded up
and easily go through a small hatch.

> In such a strong signal area, is this size antenna really the
> right way to go?

Signal strength is only part of the problem, and the easiest to
change (preamp or annenuator) And if you have multiple tuners,
splitters take their toll on signal strength. If I split too
many ways KATU suffers.

> I likely to regret trying a combination VHF/UHF antenna?

You will when you get bad reception and you wonder if a better
antenna would help. I'm wondering if I should try a Yagi UHF.
Analogs are beautiful but digitals aren't as reliable as I'd
like.

} In fact these high-gain antennas may be a problem because
} they'll be too directional and you'll only be able to pull
} in one cluster of towers and you'll get nothing if you point
} the antenna in between them. That's what my UHF antenna did
} until I took off most of the elements to make it less directional.

If you look at the beam patterns, even the most directional
antennas are far from laser beams. More likely, you changed the
side lobes and nulls enough to avoid reflections.

Rather than the compact Terk HDTVs style combo antennas, what about the these:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=ANC4248
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=TD-V10
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=TD-V15

They appear to be pretty directional, and it seems the "yagi" style has a good reputation.

Is the stated gain the main figure I should be looking at when comparing various antennas for their suitability for a specific band?

> If your attic has a lot of trusses, the YA-1713 or Y10-7-13
> might be a problem. I don't have trusses, just a few studs
> down the center. I have the 8800 leaning against one of them.
> (again, tilted up slightly)

All rafters fortunately, mostly unobstructed space under a 4 in 12 roof pitch.


> If you don't have room for a YA-1713 or Y10-7-13, the YA-6713 is
> only 49.875" long. The performance isn't as good though.
>
> Also consider your attic access. Some antennas come folded up
> and easily go through a small hatch.

Nice big opening fortunately, but I will watch for that.

Another follow-up question. I am having a hard time finding a uni-directional
UHF antenna for the new band (14-50) rather than the old (14-69) (I think I
got those about right). I was reading elsewhere that one should expect to lose
1 to 3 dB of peak gain on the range that matters with an antenna that still
covers the upper UHF channels. Does anyone know of one they'd like to
recommend?

> Is the stated gain the main figure I should be looking at
> when comparing various antennas for their suitability for
> a specific band?

Yeah, gain is the main thing. The gain will vary with frequency.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

See if you can find a beam pattern, from the maker and/or
hdtvprimer.com. A tight vertical pattern is good, to try and
avoid dynamic multipath from planes, helicopters or trucks.
Horizontally you want enough to cover the towers. Since you
only need 10 degrees that will not be a problem. You would
have to do a horizontal stack to get it below that, and even
this monster looks like it would probably work.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/32bay.html

For attics it needs to fit. For outdoors consider material.
Steel is heavy, and rusts. (and is more expensive to ship)
Some brands hold up longer outdoors than others. Some catch
more wind than others.

Solidsignal says the CM 4248 is discontinued and out of
stock.

Another follow-up question. I am having a hard time finding a uni-directional
UHF antenna for the new band (14-50) rather than the old (14-69) (I think I
got those about right). I was reading elsewhere that one should expect to lose
1 to 3 dB of peak gain on the range that matters with an antenna that still
covers the upper UHF channels. Does anyone know of one they'd like to
recommend?
If you're only three miles from the towers, I seriously doubt that a 1-3 dB loss is going to cause you reception problems.

If you're only three miles from the towers, I seriously doubt that a 1-3 dB loss is going to cause you reception problems.

The reason I ask is that the hdtvprimer guy suggests high gain antennas for locations in valleys and when dealing with multipath - and I believe I am dealing with both. Still, perhaps it is a non issue.

> Another follow-up question. I am having a hard time finding a uni-directional
> UHF antenna for the new band (14-50) rather than the old (14-69) (I think I
> got those about right). I was reading elsewhere that one should expect to lose
> 1 to 3 dB of peak gain on the range that matters with an antenna that still
> covers the upper UHF channels. Does anyone know of one they'd like to
> recommend?

My notes say 52-69 go away, 14-51 stay. KPDX is scheduled to move from 48 to 30,
so KGW on 46 will be our highest frequency station, unless something changes.

There are a lot of complaints about no 14-51 antennas. I haven't heard of any
14-51 antennas at all. Yes, the smaller the frequency range the better the
performance, hence the complaints.

} If you're only three miles from the towers, I seriously doubt that a 1-3 dB
} loss is going to cause you reception problems.

It is not just about signal strength. You can take a low gain indoor
antenna and run it through amplifiers and make the signal as strong as
you want, but it will have lots of multipath and interference. Been there
done that got the mpeg decoder crashes.

> The reason I ask is that the hdtvprimer guy suggests high gain antennas for
> locations in valleys and when dealing with multipath - and I believe I am
> dealing with both. Still, perhaps it is a non issue.

And going through the roof will attenuate the signal somewhat, more when wet.
The higher gain antennas don't cost that much, so the more gain the better,
as long as you have the 10 degrees horizontally.

> My notes say 52-69 go away, 14-51 stay. KPDX is scheduled to move from 48 to 30,
> so KGW on 46 will be our highest frequency station, unless something changes.

And of course a couple minutes after posting this I realise that KGW will move
from 46 to 8, leaving KATU on 43 the highest.

>> Another follow-up question. I am having a hard time finding a uni-directional
>> UHF antenna for the new band (14-50) rather than the old (14-69) (I think I
>> got those about right). I was reading elsewhere that one should expect to lose
>> 1 to 3 dB of peak gain on the range that matters with an antenna that still
>> covers the upper UHF channels. Does anyone know of one they'd like to
>> recommend?
>
>My notes say 52-69 go away, 14-51 stay. KPDX is scheduled to move from 48 to 30,
>so KGW on 46 will be our highest frequency station, unless something changes.

KGW (NBC) will go back to 8, leaving KATU as our highest at 43. So we need
8-43. At least according TV Fool.

>
>There are a lot of complaints about no 14-51 antennas. I haven't heard of any
>14-51 antennas at all. Yes, the smaller the frequency range the better the
>performance, hence the complaints.

Antennadirect sells the ClearStream2 which claim to be designed for the new
frequency range, but the data is rather vague. And they aren't unidirectional.
For example:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/C2-Clearstream-DTV-antenna.html

>
>} If you're only three miles from the towers, I seriously doubt that a 1-3 dB
>} loss is going to cause you reception problems.
>
>It is not just about signal strength. You can take a low gain indoor
>antenna and run it through amplifiers and make the signal as strong as
>you want, but it will have lots of multipath and interference. Been there
>done that got the mpeg decoder crashes.
>
>> The reason I ask is that the hdtvprimer guy suggests high gain antennas for
>> locations in valleys and when dealing with multipath - and I believe I am
>> dealing with both. Still, perhaps it is a non issue.
>
>And going through the roof will attenuate the signal somewhat, more when wet.
>The higher gain antennas don't cost that much, so the more gain the better,
>as long as you have the 10 degrees horizontally.

I'm thinking about the CM4228HD, but I'd really like to see if the continuous
reflectors and lack of vertical reflectors have improved the dips in the VHF-HI
band since 8 and 12 get hammered in the original model:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html.

Did you read the specs on the HDX1000?
"AntennaCraft HDX1000 VHF UHF HD Antenna "
It has a UHF & VHF section.

Good luck.



Lastly, someone else had recommended the HDX1000 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HDX1000) as something PBS was having good luck with - but PBS will be changing back to VHF-HI post Feb-19... so that isn't of much value. In general though, am I likely to regret trying a combination VHF/UHF antenna?

The reason I ask is that the hdtvprimer guy suggests high gain antennas for locations in valleys and when dealing with multipath - and I believe I am dealing with both. Still, perhaps it is a non issue.

Yes, if you're not line of sight then a high gain antenna will probably help. I can see towers right out of my living room window. I did have multipath and used a Yagi to get rid of most of it. One of my receivers has a first generation chip that does not deal with multipath very well.

You can get some idea of multipath by counting the ghosts on the analog channels. Before I got the Yagi, this is what I would see:

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/kgwntsc.jpg

Note that many newer NTSC receivers have good ghost-cancelling circuits so this may not work.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/images/c2.jpg

Oh *that* one! That should work great for channel 8. :-)

> Antennadirect sells the ClearStream2 which claim to be designed
> for the new frequency range

The graph goes up to 800, presumably MHz, so it looks fine up to
channel 68. Unless something very odd happens from 800-806 MHz
(which seems unlikely given how flat the graphs are) it should be
fine for channel 69 as well.

If their "directivity" graph means gain, it is impressively flat.
The beam pattern graph however, sucks big time.

The antennas with a gain graph that slopes gently up at higher
frequencies would help compensate for higher losses at higher
frequencies. Trees, roofs, even long coax runs attenuate higher
frequencies more than lower frequencies. They sell filters that
attenuate more at lower freqs than high to compensate for long
coax runs.

I think it is mainly the Yagis that would benefit from a 14-51
design, since they tend to have the upward sloping graphs,
and then fall off a cliff. A 14-69 or 14-83 design would put the
highest gain at frequencies than are UNdesirable. A 14-51
design would put the highest gain at the frequencies that need
it most, and the rapid drop would naturally filter out the
undesired freqs, reducing the need for a LPF-700.

> I'm thinking about the CM4228HD, but I'd really like to see if
> the continuous reflectors and lack of vertical reflectors have
> improved the dips in the VHF-HI band since 8 and 12 get hammered
> in the original model

In theory, the vertical reflectors should have little or no effect,
assuming a horizontally polarized signal. In practice the signal
has some vertical components by the time it gets to your antenna,
so the vertical reflectors may have an effect. Removing them might
help with the wind load problem. In an attic, you don't have to
worry about wind or weight, so you can add sheet metal and create
a solid reflector. I did that to my 8800, but I didn't notice any
improvement.

I take it you haven't found a frequency response graph of the
new CM4228HD.

The HDX1000 contains an internal RF amplifier, which is likely to
overload. Being internal, it is likely to be difficult or
impossible to remove it, add an FM trap or other filters, etc.
It is not very directional. The whole point of this thing is
to look less like a conventional TV antenna and look more
like a pizza pan style satellite antenna. I don't care what
my antennas look like, I care what my TV picture looks like.

>
In theory, the vertical reflectors should have little or no effect,
assuming a horizontally polarized signal. In practice the signal
has some vertical components by the time it gets to your antenna,
so the vertical reflectors may have an effect. Removing them might
help with the wind load problem. In an attic, you don't have to
worry about wind or weight, so you can add sheet metal and create
a solid reflector. I did that to my 8800, but I didn't notice any
improvement.

I take it you haven't found a frequency response graph of the
new CM4228HD.


Not yet. People seem to be calling up the manufacturers a lot on this forum. I'll add Channel Master to my Calls list and let you all know if I manage to wrangle a beam plot and a freq vs. gain plot out of them.

>> My notes say 52-69 go away, 14-51 stay. KPDX is scheduled to move from 48 to 30,
>> so KGW on 46 will be our highest frequency station, unless something changes.

> And of course a couple minutes after posting this I realise that KGW will move
> from 46 to 8, leaving KATU on 43 the highest.

And of course a couple days after posting this I realise that I forgot about
KNMT on channel 45.

Article 1 doesn't say if KNMT is staying on 45 after Feb. And doesn't mention
channel 16.

KNMT is staying on 45.

Channel 16? You mean KORS-CA? That one's staying put to the best of my knowledge...

- Trip

My kids have been watching QUBO and I occasionally watch ION. A week or so ago 22 went away. I haven't read anyone's post on this. Is it just my reception or are they down? Anyone know? Thanks.

Watch for the signal to come back on channel 22 in the next few days. They asked the FCC for permission to terminate the analog on 22 and the digital on 4 and move the digital up to 22 as of 12/3.

- Trip

Not yet. People seem to be calling up the manufacturers a lot on this forum. I'll add Channel Master to my Calls list and let you all know if I manage to wrangle a beam plot and a freq vs. gain plot out of them.

I contacted CM and they got back to me quickly re. the 4228HD, but the data they sent me (in XLS format) wasn't as granular as I'd hoped. Here it is converted to text.

Note the rather non-directional behavior of the VHF-HI band :-(



MODEL 4228HD

CHANNEL GAIN BEAMWIDTH
7 4.6 30deg, 10db
9 5.3 72deg, 6db
11 4.7 136deg, 7db
13 3.4 74deg, 9db
14 11.2 26deg, 25db
19 11.6 24deg, 27db
27 11.7 25deg, 24db
35 10.9 24deg, 21db
43 11.1 26deg, 20db
52 11.7 21deg, 25db
60 11.7 16deg, 24db

AVERAGE VHF GAIN 4.5db
AVERAGE UHF GAIN 11.4db
GAIN IN db OVER TUNED DIPOLE

BEAMWIDTH IN DEGREES AT 3db DOWN POINTS
F/B = FRONT TO BACK RATIO IN db
ANTENNA AREA = 1.80 SQFT

Dimensions (INCHES)
Length Width Height
5 41 33

I've asked CM for more detailed specs on the 4228HD, we'll see if they are willing to cough them up :-)

So is there something special about Dec 3rd? KPXG is converting
channel 22, KPTV is reducing power, perhaps other changes?

----------------

That 4228HD data looks worse than the old model, if it is
comparable to the simulation data on hdtvprimer. (it
very well might not be comparable...)

While I was looking for confirmation of the December 3 digital move of KPXG to Ch 22, I found this notice, released Nov 26th. KPXG is listed. I expect this could mean some content changes.

NOTICE is hereby given that, on November 18, 2008, assignee Urban Television LLC (“Urban”) and subsidiaries of ION Media Networks, Inc. (“ION”), filed FCC Form 314 applications, pursuant to Sections 3.1715 and 73.3540 of the Commission’s rules, and associated FCC Form 301 applications.

Urban, a new entrant into the broadcasting industry, seeks consent to acquire share-time licenses that would authorize it to broadcast on a shared-time basis on channels currently licensed to the subsidiaries of ION listed below. The applicants request waivers, to the extent necessary, of the procedures governing share time agreements set forth in Section 73.1715 of the Commission’s Rules, and/or the procedures governing new broadcast service auctions set forth in Section 73.5002(a) of the Commission’s Rules.

The parties further request confirmation that Urban’s new stations would be entitled to mandatory cable carriage. Robert L. Johnson will own 51% of the assets of Urban, whereas ION will own the remaining
49%.


http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2008/db1126/DA-08-2621A1.pdf

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1275986&Service=DS&Form_id=911&Facility_id=5801

At the bottom is a link that says "Early Digital Operation on Post-Transition Channel." That contains the 12/3 date.

- Trip

Trip, I'd already seen the station application. I was looking to see if it had been approved. It will probably be on the air tomorrow before the FCC has it listed as "granted."

ETA: And yes, 22.x is back on the the air, and 22 analog is no more. I think the repeaters were still there, though.

im in albany and cannot see 22 digital very reliable this morning i am able to see 8,10 digital with great signal streangth and those are on the same tower as 22 so i dont know if they started today at a reduced power or what

> im in albany and cannot see 22 digital very reliable this
> morning i am able to see 8,10 digital with great signal
> streangth and those are on the same tower as 22 so i dont
> know if they started today at a reduced power or what

With pr-8800, 10.9dB loss from splitters, 6dB attenuator
(and a bit more loss from coax and filters) I'm getting
100% signal strength, 90% signal quality, and no FEC errors
on a 5 minute test. I then added an additional 10dB attenuator
(to get the signal strength unpegged) and got 82% signal strength,
85% signal quality, and still no FEC errors in 5 minutes.

The pr-8800 has about 12 dBd gain on channel 22 according to the
net gain graph on http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

The same tuner is getting 81% signal strength, 85% signal quality
on KOPB chan 27. The gain graph shows chan 27 within 1 dB of chan 22.
So the new ATSC channel 22 is at the same power level as KOPB chan 27.
Being a lower frequency, channel 22 should propagate slightly better.

Are you sure your tuner is really reporting signal strength?
Many tuners report some form of signal quality, especially if
they only provide a single number. You might be getting multipath
or interference. What antenna are you using?

on my mac tuner that is not the tuner i was using is saying
ch 22 100% signal quality but jumping to 0% signal strength in the 40s but also jumping to 0
ch 10 100% signal quality, 50% signal strength
ch 08 100% signal quality, 69% signal strength
ch 02 100% signal quality, 75% signal strength
ch 06 100% signal quality, 60% signal strength(low because of ch 7 digital in corvallis)
ch 12 100% signal quality, 63% signal strength
ch 32 100% signal quality, 66% signal strength 750 kW
ch 24 100% signal quality, 75% signal strength
tried both a tivo series3 and a dish network dtv pal
also i had no problem with ch 4 (22 digital before it went of the air 2 weeks ago) even at the reduced power

Sorting by the real channel number gives

BS real
chan chan
16
ch 22 22 100% signal quality but jumping to 0% signal strength in the 40s but also jumping to 0
ch 10 27 100% signal quality, 50% signal strength
ch 12 30 100% signal quality, 63% signal strength
ch 32 33 100% signal quality, 66% signal strength 750 kW
ch 06 40 100% signal quality, 60% signal strength(low because of ch 7 digital in corvallis)
ch 02 43 100% signal quality, 75% signal strength
ch 24 45 100% signal quality, 75% signal strength
ch 08 46 100% signal quality, 69% signal strength
ch 49 48


Looks like your antenna peaks in the 40s. Signal strength
bouncing around is often cited as a symptom of multipath.
I saw it once when 27 was coming especially strong and the
tuner was overloaded, but that doesn't seem to be the case
here. There could be other causes, such as trees moving in
the wind, but that should affect the higher channels more.

> i had no problem with ch 4 (22 digital before it went of the
> air 2 weeks ago) even at the reduced power

VHF-LO propagates a *lot* better than UHF though air, trees, walls, coax, etc.

ION does lose some signal power in the transition. My tvfool graph shows 22.x real 4 as my strongest signal before transition, -31 dBm. It drops to -43.6 when it moves to real ch 22. That's in the middle of my easy to get channels, but it's still a big drop in signal strength. ION does have booster stations, I was wondering if there will be any for the southern coverage. Their move to the Portland tower has me confused about how they expect to cover Salem and southward, especially since they are running around 745 kW compared to just about everyone else at 1000.

Anyone with more information on 16-2 (Bohemia Music TV)? I just noticed this last night, although the reception is quite poor. Seems like a nice channel for indie music. They had an old Henry Rollins video this morning.

Update:
This (http://www.bohemiavisualmusic.com/) appears to be their website.

According to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KORS-CA), KORS-CA is out of Salem. This might be why my signal is weak.

KORS-CA is licensed to Salem, but transmits at 15 kW from the same tower site that every other Portland station is using.

- Trip

> Anyone with more information on 16-2 (Bohemia Music TV)?
> I just noticed this last night, although the reception is quite poor.

> ... KORS-CA is out of Salem. This might be why my signal is weak.

Signal strength and quality are low, but I can get 16 with no FEC failures,
even with the antenna pointing away from Salem, providing I don't have too
much attenuation. So it is possible to get ch 16 from the Portland area.

Does anyone know what the "PES_IZED" PIDs (0x35, 0x45, 0x55) are?
Google gets exactly 1 hit, source code with no comment explaining it.

I also get a boatload of "UNKNOWN pkt -- skipped", which may or may not
be related to the PES_IZED PIDs.


Active PIDs in this stream
PID=0x0, ctrl_type=0x3=PAT, pkt_cnt=590
PID=0x30, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=147
PID=0x31, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=182984
PID=0x34, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=9208
PID=0x35, ctrl_type=0xe=PES_IZED, pkt_cnt=17858
PID=0x40, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=147
PID=0x41, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=183005
PID=0x44, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=9208
PID=0x45, ctrl_type=0xe=PES_IZED, pkt_cnt=17857
PID=0x50, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=147
PID=0x51, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=142531
PID=0x54, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=9209
PID=0x55, ctrl_type=0xe=PES_IZED, pkt_cnt=17858
PID=0x1ffb, ctrl_type=0x5=ATSC, pkt_cnt=1947
PID=0x1fff, ctrl_type=0x14=NULL, pkt_cnt=175607
Stream contains 3 program(s).
Default program is 1.
Program 1:
PID=0x31 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x34 Audio (Dolby AC-3)
PID=0x35 Unknown (0x06)
Program 2:
PID=0x41 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x44 Audio (Dolby AC-3)
PID=0x45 Unknown (0x06)
Program 3:
PID=0x51 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x54 Audio (Dolby AC-3)
PID=0x55 Unknown (0x06)

Konrad2:

Raw curiosity, but what equipment/operating system/software are you using to get your data?

- Trip

Konrad, Trip is right that KORS broadcasts from the Portland antenna farm, not from Salem. If you enter the call letters at the FCC site, you'll see the latest map puts it in Portland, as does the latitude/longitude designation. I started getting KORS in late October, but only in one upstairs room facing the Portland towers. Upstairs room on South side I can't get it, but signal is strongest toward Portland. In the room where I get reception, I stabilize the signal by turning the antenna a bit more to the west. Not sure what that does, it may reduce the multipath. It's the same with Fox49, except that one is best to the east of the tower.

> Raw curiosity, but what equipment/operating system/software are
> you using to get your data?

From the dtvstream utility, source code available here:
http://pdicamillo.org/~peter/pchdtv/dtvstream-source-1.1.tar.gz

I'm running it on FreeBSD. It should run on most/all flavors of
Unix.

The good:

It provides a list of PIDs with packet counts, and programs
with their PIDs.

It tells you if there are continuity counter errors, and
if so which PIDs they are in and how far into the file
they are. It turns out that some of our stations are actually
sending out streams with continuity counter errors. (And
other problems) Bad reception can also result in these errors.
Either way, if there is an error in the PIDs you are using,
expect a decode error and resulting glitch.

It can filter out PIDs, which is useful since some decoder
programs (ffmpeg) don't have options for selecting which program
you want, or which audio PID when there is more than one.
Filtering the PIDs is also useful to make the file smaller.
Some computer tuners can filter the PIDs themselves, but some
cannot.

The bad:

It occasionally crashes, especially if there were reception
problems.

Sometimes the output is very verbose. On channel 16, I had to
run the output through grep -v "UNKNOWN pkt -- skipped".

If I remember, I'll be giving that a try when I get home. I've got the right equipment and OS to make something happen I think.

Not that it's at all relevant to this thread (I've never been in the states of Oregon or Washington), I just had to find out what you were using though. =)

- Trip

Right now, my data indicates that KATU-DT has color bars airing on 2-2. We now have some idea of what is coming.

http://mgm.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=600&printable

KATU is owned by Fisher Communications. I suspect This TV will end up on 2-2.

- Trip

While I was looking for more info on "This" I saw that Wikipedia said .2 (aka dot two) Network will be either on KPTV or KPDX.

Yes, KATU has color bars on 2.2, and the same audio as 2.1. I have it deleted until it gets interesting.

And there's CW, 32.2, which used to be music and was dropped before I got digital, but now the subchannel is back with nothing being broadcast.

ION does lose some signal power in the transition. My tvfool graph shows 22.x real 4 as my strongest signal before transition, -31 dBm. It drops to -43.6 when it moves to real ch 22. That's in the middle of my easy to get channels, but it's still a big drop in signal strength. ION does have booster stations, I was wondering if there will be any for the southern coverage. Their move to the Portland tower has me confused about how they expect to cover Salem and southward, especially since they are running around 745 kW compared to just about everyone else at 1000.

The difference between 745kW and 1000kW is not that great (1.3dB). Attached are a couple coverage maps for KPXG at the 745kW level and a theoretical 1000kW facility. The differences are subtle.

As for TV Fool's handling of Low-VHF, I have found the signal levels to be optimistic. I subtract about 15dB from the values, but in some parts of the country with high levels of impulse noise even that is probably not enough.

KPXG appears to cover Salem well enough and co-location is generally a good idea, if antennas only need to point in one direction for a given area (e.g. rotors only needed for out of market reception).

ION's digital signal in the LA area is co-located, which I can receive just fine. However, their analog signal is not co-located, and is sometimes not watchable where I live.

ION has been aggressively trying to co-locate in many markets. They/PAX bought quite a few of the outlying stations and seem to understand that most aren't going to go out of their way to add a rotor/turn their antenna for ION.

Falcon, it's just that the ION tower used to be in Salem, so it had a wider range of reception southward. I can tell from your maps that adding power wouldn't make much difference from Portland as you say, but it shows Corvallis, for example, as -100dBm. Corvallis used to get ION from Salem easily. TVFools still says it does, so there is more to it than maps, I guess.

I saw a detailed map earlier this summer, and the reception skipped all over the place down the I-5 corridor. Individual towns looked like polka dots. I'm south of Portland and one edge. Salem does have in its favor that it's far enough away to be LOS and not have the signal stuck behind a hill. ION has a couple boosters in the Portland metro area. I don't know that there are any in Salem, but maybe that's in the plan, or maybe the signal doesn't get lost in hills like it does closer to the tower.

Yes, KATU has color bars on 2.2, and the same audio as 2.1. I have it deleted until it gets interesting.

Color bars? I just thought the channel was way way overcompressed! ;)

LOL on the 2.2 overcompression. Actually last I peeked, it had no audio, either.

I see that 10.5 is no longer broadcasting; I hope that's a permanent change.

looks like opb finally made the decision to get rid of the oregon channel from there lineup of digital channels so the lineup looks like this
XX.1 OPB HD
XX.2 OPB SD
XX.3 OPB PLUS (name change)
XX.4 OPB FM (primary audio OPB FM/secondary audio OPB MUSIC) with different pictures as the background

Right now, my data indicates that KATU-DT has color bars airing on 2-2. We now have some idea of what is coming.

http://mgm.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=600&printable

KATU is owned by Fisher Communications. I suspect This TV will end up on 2-2.

- Trip

Any indication on when "This" will go live on 2-2?

looks like opb finally made the decision to get rid of the oregon channel from there lineup of digital channels so the lineup looks like this
XX.1 OPB HD
XX.2 OPB SD
XX.3 OPB PLUS (name change)
XX.4 OPB FM (primary audio OPB FM/secondary audio OPB MUSIC) with different pictures as the background

Great. Now the same #$#%^'s who got rid of our radio reading service for the blind because they said that SAP was going away and there was no way to replicate it on digital TV have now found a way to put both a primary and secondary audio source on the air before the transition happens. I'm prejudiced because I volunteered for the reading service, but OPB disgusts me.

Any indication on when "This" will go live on 2-2?

Well, there's only speculation at this point, but I don't know if we'll see it show up before 02/17/09. There's really no answer at this point.

- Trip

I've cut off my CableTV service and have been trying to establish full OTA DTV as my main feed. I live 3-4 miles from the Portland towers in the SW area, near the crest of one of the small hills, but have been having trouble getting several DTV signals, specifically ch.(s) 6, 12, and 22 - On a scale of 1-6 bars, these are 2, 4 and 1 respectively.

I have a Terk HD-TVS Slim Profile antenna mounted in my attic with a 35ft. run (no amplifier) to my primary TV. In reviewing the AntennaWeb.org site, I see that I have a (red) medium direction antenna, but based on my address information, should have a (yellow) omni directional. Are my issues with signal strength likely an orientation issue vs. wrong size/model antenna, or should I consider an amplifier at the antenna?

I've cut off my CableTV service and have been trying to establish full OTA DTV as my main feed. I live 3-4 miles from the Portland towers in the SW area, near the crest of one of the small hills, but have been having trouble getting several DTV signals, specifically ch.(s) 6, 12, and 22 - On a scale of 1-6 bars, these are 2, 4 and 1 respectively.

I have a Terk HD-TVS Slim Profile antenna mounted in my attic with a 35ft. run (no amplifier) to my primary TV. In reviewing the AntennaWeb.org site, I see that I have a (red) medium direction antenna, but based on my address information, should have a (yellow) omni directional. Are my issues with signal strength likely an orientation issue vs. wrong size/model antenna, or should I consider an amplifier at the antenna?

In my North Portland location, line-of-sight and about five miles from the Skyline broadcast towers, strong signal strength might be an occasional problem. I have one Zenith DTT901 CECB on an inexpensive RCA ANT115 in one room, one Panasonic DMR-EZ17 (digital/analog tuner) DVD recorder on an inexpensive RCA ANT111 and one Zenith DTT900 CECB on an unfolded standard sized #1 paper clip in another room. In my location all these "antennas" often give about the same very good results. I also have a "fifth generation" Centronics ZAT 501A HD tuner on an inexpensive Philips SDV2270/17. That combination doesn't pull in all the channels on a regular basis so I regard that pairing as a "cut below" the other pairings.

Of course the crest of a small hill in SW Portland may not be line-of-sight to the broadcast towers along Skyline Blvd. I would think that portions of Hillsdale/Wilson Park, some areas along 45th Ave. from Vermont St. to Taylors Ferry Road, areas along Garden Home Road just west of 45th Ave., Dosch/Bridlemile/Wilcox/Glencullen, Corbett/Lair Hill, Fulton Park/Burlingame and the area facing south or east along Broadway Drive and some areas along Vista Ave. might be a few of the somewhat difficult areas. To the West some areas along Scholls Ferry Road and west toward Raleigh Hills and West Slope might also be problematic due to line-of-sight issues. Some portions of NW Portland have problems. Linnton and further out along portions of Hwy 30 might be problematic as well.

In my North Portland location, line-of-sight and about five miles from the Skyline broadcast towers, strong signal strength might be an occasional problem. I have one Zenith DTT901 CECB on an inexpensive RCA ANT115 in one room, one Panasonic DMR-EZ17 (digital/analog tuner) DVD recorder on an inexpensive RCA ANT111 and one Zenith DTT900 CECB on an unfolded standard sized #1 paper clip in another room. In my location all these "antennas" often give about the same very good results. I also have a "fifth generation" Centronics ZAT 501A HD tuner on an inexpensive Philips SDV2270/17. That combination doesn't pull in all the channels on a regular basis so I regard that pairing as a "cut below" the other pairings.

Of course the crest of a small hill in SW Portland may not be line-of-sight to the broadcast towers along Skyline Blvd. I would think that portions of Hillsdale/Wilson Park, some areas along 45th Ave. from Vermont St. to Taylors Ferry Road, areas along Garden Home Road just west of 45th Ave., Dosch/Bridlemile/Wilcox/Glencullen, Corbett/Lair Hill, Fulton Park/Burlingame and the area facing south or east along Broadway Drive and some areas along Vista Ave. might be a few of the somewhat difficult areas. To the West some areas along Scholls Ferry Road and west toward Raleigh Hills and West Slope might also be problematic due to line-of-sight issues. Some portions of NW Portland have problems. Linnton and further out along portions of Hwy 30 might be problematic as well.

I'm at about 600ft on a hill near SW Capital Hwy and Vermont, so I don't think that it's a line-of-sight issue. Thinking that my antenna is to narrow a beam, but have a number of tall trees between me and the towers and was concerned over multipaths.

You mean this thing?

http://www.crutchfield.com/ISEO-rgbtcspd/p_209HDTVS/Terk-HDTVs.html

Designed to look "pretty", not designed for good tv reception.

> should I consider an amplifier at the antenna?

At 3-4 miles you will have trouble keeping an amp from overloading.
Your problem may be too strong a signal rather than too weak.
(Although probably not with only 4.5 dB of gain.)
You could try an attenuator, or a splitter with unused outputs terminated.
An FM trap or HLSJ diplexor will reduce overload without reducing
signal strength (the HLSJ will hurt the analogs on chan 2-6).

How do your UHF analogs look? Snow? Ghosts? Other problems?

KPXG digital 22 was down awhile today. Analog 54 was ok,
so presumably they didn't lose power.

You mean this thing?

http://www.crutchfield.com/ISEO-rgbtcspd/p_209HDTVS/Terk-HDTVs.html

Designed to look "pretty", not designed for good tv reception.

That's the one. :) Had originally planned to mount it outside and didn't want any potenial neighbor issues with the other traditional style antennas, but then was told I could mount it in my attic with relatively little signal loss, so that's what I did.

Currently considering building one based on some of the earlier posts to see if that might provide a better solution to the issues at hand.

should I consider an amplifier at the antenna?

At 3-4 miles you will have trouble keeping an amp from overloading.
Your problem may be too strong a signal rather than too weak.
(Although probably not with only 4.5 dB of gain.)
You could try an attenuator, or a splitter with unused outputs terminated.
An FM trap or HLSJ diplexor will reduce overload without reducing
signal strength (the HLSJ will hurt the analogs on chan 2-6).

How do your UHF analogs look? Snow? Ghosts? Other problems?

I was only tuning the digital signals (ignoring analog) at this time but I'll go back and test the analog UHF stations and report back. Thanks again for some insight!

So some Portland stations can't run their crawl for weather closings over an HDTV picture? KATU is downgrading prime time to 4:3 SD with a crawl. Last night Letterman was shown in 4:3 SD on KOIN with superimposed info at the bottom of the screen, but tonight on Criminal Minds they seem to be doing that under a vertically compressed widescreen picture. Only KGW seems to be able to run a crawl without degrading the picture.

So some Portland stations can't run their crawl for weather closings over an HDTV picture? KATU is downgrading prime time to 4:3 SD with a crawl. Last night Letterman was shown in 4:3 SD on KOIN with superimposed info at the bottom of the screen, but tonight on Criminal Minds they seem to be doing that under a vertically compressed widescreen picture. Only KGW seems to be able to run a crawl without degrading the picture.

It's one more thing for me to rant about during winter storm season:


1. Interrupting scheduled programs to watch idiotic newscasters film a bush fluttering in the breeze.

2. Cancelling schools and businesses an entire day before knowing what the weather will really be like.

3. Drivers who haven't got a clue how to drive in icy conditions and either go 3MPH or spin their wheels at 60MPH.

4. Having to worry not only about losing power, but also losing HD because the stations can't figure out how to output a crawl in HD to warn people of all the things that will be cancelled despite the fact that the weather might just be just fine.

5. Displaying temperature predictions in a nice graph, and then putting their oversized station logo on top, so it completely hides the one useful piece of info they had in the entire hour.

6. Having so little content that reporters and anchors overuse the word "again."

If the stations cannot run the crawler in HD does that imply that we won't need to see the crawler after the transition date?
That would be GREAT but I suspect they will find some way to continue to do this form of irritatation in HD.
On a similar irritating issue will the logo move to the 16x9 outside position after the transition? It seems that if all broadcast is digital then it should be 16x9 or 4x3 in a 16x9 frame.
Does any one know the answer to this? Or like so much of this wait and see what it is when it arrives.
nater

Only KGW seems to be able to run a crawl without degrading the picture.

Yet when KGW superimposes a promo for their 11:00pm news over an HD program the audio drops by 50%.

[rant, cont.]
7. Parents letting kids under 16 ride unlicensed ATVs all over the place and seeing how many 360s they can do before getting to the bottom of the hill where regular vehicle traffic has to dodge them. What do they think: Snow-covered streets = dunes?
[rant off]

At 3-4 miles you will have trouble keeping an amp from overloading.
Your problem may be too strong a signal rather than too weak.
(Although probably not with only 4.5 dB of gain.)
You could try an attenuator, or a splitter with unused outputs terminated.
An FM trap or HLSJ diplexor will reduce overload without reducing
signal strength (the HLSJ will hurt the analogs on chan 2-6).

How do your UHF analogs look? Snow? Ghosts? Other problems?

Ok, just finished testing this week. Turns out that I did have ghosts on several analog channels that were low signal on the digital side. After some slight modification to the antenna orientation while monitoring the analog signals (optimizing by elminating the degree of ghosts), we now are getting ALL of Portland DTV signals possible. THanks for the great tips in your earlier posts.

Two additional questions:

1. The 4" of remaining ice and snow on the roof shouldn't have any attenuation on the signals, correct?

2. While re-tuning the TV for the DTV signals, we notice the tuner picked up and locked 16-1 and 16-2 as viable digital channels. There is no picture, but also no static. Do we have some new DTV channels coming on line?

KORS-CA is licensed to Salem, but transmits at 15 kW from the same tower site that every other Portland station is using.

- Trip

Cavemaster, that's the station you were asking about.

16.1 is HSN home shopping network
16.2 is Bohemian music
16.3 is labeled "jewelry" but no picture yet

I get a lock from 14.5 miles south, if I adjust my homemade antenna a bit to the west of the tower location.

Cavemaster, that's the station you were asking about.

16.1 is HSN home shopping network
16.2 is Bohemian music
16.3 is labeled "jewelry" but no picture yet

I get a lock from 14.5 miles south, if I adjust my homemade antenna a bit to the west of the tower location.

Those are the ones! I'll have to delete those so the Miss's doesn't see them. :)

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/12/18/portland-oregons-katu-booted-from-dish-network/

Interesting game of chicken. I went to see what Dish offers for local channels, $84/year. They have 3 HD channels (6, 8, 12) and 7 SD (6, 8, 12 again, and 10, 16-KUNP, 32, and 49). If you want KOIN, ION, KORS, and all subchannels, you need an antenna, and once you do that, why would you pay Dish?

Interesting game of chicken. I went to see what Dish offers for local channels, $84/year. They have 3 HD channels (6, 8, 12) and 7 SD (6, 8, 12 again, and 10, 16-KUNP, 32, and 49). If you want KOIN, ION, KORS, and all subchannels, you need an antenna, and once you do that, why would you pay Dish?

For the guide data... if you don't subscribe to the locals the dvr doesn't get the data and it's pretty useless for recording locals.

$84/year is steep for guide data, but I suppose the recording would be a convenience. I use TVGuide.com to see what's on. I have recorded subchannels other than x. 1, so I'd still want an OTA solution.

I thought our OTA channels had guide data associated with them.

For the guide data... if you don't subscribe to the locals the dvr doesn't get the data and it's pretty useless for recording locals.

TVGOS data is transmitted on CBS (KOIN 6), not ABC (KATU 2) - http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=tvgos

I thought our OTA channels had guide data associated with them.

That's PSIP data - It's basically the TV program information, DTV ratio and HD level, duration, etc.

PSIP does have a table called the EIT, which contains guide data for that station. Some receivers support it, others do not.

- Trip

PSIP does have a table called the EIT, which contains guide data for that station. Some receivers support it, others do not.

- Trip

Didn't know that, thanks for the info.

Aren't most new and soon to be released CE recording devices planning to use TVGOS rather than PSIP? I understand that the manufactures pay a small fee to TVGOS for each unit to utilize this more reliable guide data.

Yet when KGW superimposes a promo for their 11:00pm news over an HD program the audio drops by 50%.

[rant, cont.]
7. Parents letting kids under 16 ride unlicensed ATVs all over the place and seeing how many 360s they can do before getting to the bottom of the hill where regular vehicle traffic has to dodge them. What do they think: Snow-covered streets = dunes?
[rant off]
Running the damn crawls continuously. Can they not just show them during the news when the news is supposed to be shown? Amazing how the broadcast industry complains to no end how they are losing share to cable and other outlets, but they do themselves no favors by plastering their screens with all kinds of garbage during their programming. I really kind of wanted to see the episodes of Pushing Daisy's and Life Wednesday night but quickly abandoned that idea when I realized they were going to continue the crawls ad nauseum. What's the point of even putting on programming at all when there's a highly obnoxious, constant stream of the same info OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER running across the screen throughout? :rolleyes:


So as not to seem like a total Grinch, it's nice to see that KGW at least has made their crawls a little bit transparent instead of totally opaque. Still not good but at least a bit less cause for screen burn alarm. Otherwise I wouldn't even be watching their news either...


ron

This message reformatted to fit the screen we think you might
have, even though there is no longer any way to guess what
aspect ratio screen a viewer might have these days. We also
mangled this message to take out any content that some prude
might object to. Don't worry, the good healthy violence
is all there. We also chopped out some bits critical to
understanding the plot to make room for more commercials. You
do enjoy watching the same commercial twice in a row, don't you?
And we deleted a few frames here and there, hope you enjoy
watching jerky motion. Oh yeah, we ran this through a filter
that softens the picture to reduce the bandwidth required
so that we can run more subchannels. Never mind that this makes
the picture blurrier than a third generation copy vhs from 1983.

> does that imply that we won't need to see the crawler after
> the transition date?

DTV doesn't need a crawler. DTV has PIDs. Put up a low bandwidth
SD channel like OPB's "FM". Use that for roads closed, schools

{ commercial }
{ eardrum piercing POP }

closed, concerts canceled, weather maps, photos of idiot's cars

{ SPLASH }
NOW: The message you are attempting to read

in the ditch, criminals wanted, kids missing, election results,

{ glitch from invalid data stream (from the station, not a reception problem) }

emergency warning tests, etc. Program the equipment to give the

{ SPLASH }
NEXT: Some show you aren't going to waste your
time on no matter how much we promo it.

main PID priority if it needs the bandwidth.

{ SPLASH } USELESS
TWO DAYS FROM NOW: Some completely unrelated show you already LOGO about
HERE

..... Do those of you watching the digital version of this
transmission know about the DTV transition in Feb. ??!?!?!?!

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Do both Paul.... I laughed 'til I cried at Konrad's post.
Wish someone would rub in the appropriate persons face and at the NAB then file it under "Worst Practices"

On the technical side:
It boggles my mind that it is that hard to add a new stream.

An expensive broadcast input hardware I can understand.

Could someone (who really knows) point me to how in an ATSC broadcast Multi-Channel-Program-Stream is somehow that much harder to add in a new stream to the mux. Especially a low bitrate static image like OPB-FM

I am asking on both hardware and software side.

I don't think anybody dynamically adds streams anymore due to all the problems of people having to re-scan to tune them in.







Do both Paul.... I laughed 'til I cried at Konrad's post.
Wish someone would rub in the appropriate persons face and at the NAB then file it under "Worst Practices"

On the technical side:
It boggles my mind that it is that hard to add a new stream.

An expensive broadcast input hardware I can understand.

Could someone (who really knows) point me to how in an ATSC broadcast Multi-Channel-Program-Stream is somehow that much harder to add in a new stream to the mux. Especially a low bitrate static image like OPB-FM

I am asking on both hardware and software side.

Anybody know what's with KPDX 49? I completely lost the digital signal over a week ago, and the analog version is in bad shape, too.

I also lost channel 49 and also 22. previously strong signals with my OTA tuner in vista media center. Another VMC Mapping issue ?

22 was off for about a week before it shut down analog broadcast and moved digital to real frequency 22, on December 3. I got that one back as scheduled. IIRC, with one CECB I had to delete and then find it again to get it back. On my CM7000, it locks at 100%.

I had tried two different tvs looking for KPDX/49. But today I was able to check the room facing the towers, and KPDX was there, with a signal about half of what it was before. Rechecking my second tv, it now shows a very weak signal, not viewable.

I wish these stations would tell us what's going on. It sure isn't easy getting ready for the digital transition when the signals mysteriously change or disappear.

> I completely lost the digital signal over a week ago,
> and the analog version is in bad shape, too.

2008-12-28 2pm:

48: signal strength = 81% signal quality = 40%
FEC failures: 0

49: a hint of snow

Previously I got 100%/55% on 48 and no snow on 49, but I'm
splitting the signal more ways now, which could explain the
changes.

48/49's sibling station 30/12 had a crawler awhile back saying they
were going to reduce power (no reason given, and they didn't say how
much they were reducing it). Have they reduced power on 49?

> It sure isn't easy getting ready for the digital transition when
> the signals mysteriously change or disappear.

Yes. It would also be nice if they had valid transport streams.
Fox 30 has had a bogus transport stream for months now. To
the casual observer it looks the same as bad reception.

I also lost channel 49 and also 22. previously strong signals with my OTA tuner in vista media center. Another VMC Mapping issue ?

Windows Media Center tuners and the worthless Zap-2-it programming service it uses, are a big disaster. I predict that when the complete digital transition takes place and many stations change their physical transmitting channels, that even more stations will be lost. Since Zap-2-it has shown no past inclination to send all the right physical channel numbers or to correct them if they're wrong, it will be up to each WMC user to erase the wrong code lines in their hidden files for the channel numbers and then go to the Media Center Menu and add back the channels, this time with the right physical numbers. If you search my name on this forum, you'll find instructions how do do this on a Vista OS, on a posting from last Spring. Windows XP users need to do the same thing, only follow a slightly different pathway to the hidden files that hold these code lines. You also will have to find the correct new physical channel number by calling each station, if otherwise unavailable. These instructions have to be followed exactly, so it's best to print out a copy of them, to read while doing the procedure.

Another problem is the groups of identifying and control codes that accompany each digital signal. The WMC tuners seem to require that all these groups of codes are present and exactly the same as they are programmed to receive. Other ATSC tuners, in TVs, DVRs and the small digital converter boxes, apparently aren't so demanding about the codes. Some stations don't have all these codes exactly the same as the WMC tuners demand and these stations are not recognized by them. There are three local stations now in my area, that apparently have variations in these codes and I can't get them with my WMC tuner. Two of these were previously receivable, but when they installed new transmitters a few months ago, they must have made changes in the codes. There's nothing a user can do about this, except call the station engineers and ask them if they will examine their codes and correct them. Since most other ATSC tuners are receiving their signals, despite the code errors or ommissions, the station engineers may not understand why there's a problem, as so few WMC tuners are being used and no one else may have complained to them.

Note to Microsoft: We are badly in need of an upgrade in our WMC tuners to allow them to be compatible with all ATSC signals and also a different guide service that always sends correct channel information. The ability to tune QAM signals should also be added, as the cable companies won't be sending analog signals above number 30 and this part of the WMC tuners will no longer be functional.

Perhaps the best solution would be to purchase a software ATSC/QAM tuner/DVR program, that would use a computer's harddrive and just bypass the flawed WMC system entirely. Someone let me know if they find the best such program for this purpose.

Do you have a suggestion for inexpensive software to use on XP home or Pro. Most that I have looked at seem to need XP or Vista media center.
thanks
nater

I lost 49.1 a few days ago. I called KPDX this afternoon and left a message. Prior to a few days ago, my computer measured a greater than 70% signal strength and I had no issues recording programs or watching it live. Now it is around 20% and my TV does not even find the digital signal. I have a 4 bay antenna mounted on a 40 foot mast and split the signal into 3 (TV and 2 capture cards in my computer). Up to this point, only 32.1 was a bit marginal when weather was very bad. All the other channels I watch are fine (2.1, 2.2, 6.1, 8.1, 8.2, 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, 10.4, 12.1, 22.1, 32.1).

As for software for XP, I have been extremely happy with Snapsteam's BeyondTv. I have been using it for 3+ years. For the last year, I have been using it with 2 HD capture cards (Dvico and Cateye) and an OTA antenna. The program data has been very good. I can record as many programs at once as I have capture cards. Recording HD takes a lot of disc hard drive space, but the quality is great.
-Jon

Note to Microsoft: We are badly in need of an upgrade in our WMC tuners to allow them to be compatible with all ATSC signals and also a different guide service that always sends correct channel information. The ability to tune QAM signals should also be added, as the cable companies won't be sending analog signals above number 30 and this part of the WMC tuners will no longer be functional.
Off-Topic
(pure fiction below)
Haven't you heard? QAM scanning and support is the killer, must-have upgrade for Windows 7 "Molasses Media Center" Edition.
Of course all hardware released pre-2009 won't even work for the QAM tuner, since none of the hardware vendors even want to revisit them.
And of course it will barely work at all. You'll love waiting 'till Windows 7 SP2 is release to make it work as it should.

Coming to retail stores Jan. 2010 (Q3 2009 is our Enterprise release, and that will only be made since we'll release Windows 7 the day before Q4 starts)
(pure fiction above)

On Topic:

I haven't had 32.1 or 49.1 for over a week now....

As for the reduced power a KPTV, I know that they reduced the analog signal Dec. 3 for the switchover (when they swap the lines, I believe they will be over DTV EIRP allowance)

Konrad, if 49 analog has a crawler announcing power changes, I'd never know it. I get heavy vertical herringbone pattern now, so I didn't check it out for more than a couple seconds. It's worse than snow to my eyes.

Do you have a suggestion for inexpensive software to use on XP home or Pro. Most that I have looked at seem to need XP or Vista media center.
thanks
nater

Check out SnapStream's "Beyond TV"
- http://www.snapstream.com/products/beyondtv/?utm_source=SnapStream&utm_medium=Banner&utm_campaign=FireFly%2BPromo

I sent an email to the KPDX/KPYV folks about the digital signal issues. Here is their response:



Thanks for your email. We are still broadcasting but at reduced power.

The KPDX transmitter suffered a major power failure on 12/21 during the winter storms. As a result our digital signal is broadcasting at reduced power. Our analog signal is still full strength. We are working on a solution.



Thank you for your patience.



Patrick McCreery

VP, General Manager

Thank you, Thunderbeast!!

I visited FCC, and they just posted before/after coverage maps by DMAs. Here's ours:


Portland Coverage Maps:
http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/markets/maps_report1/Portland_OR.pdf

Portland Coverage Maps, Stations with Significant Change:
http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/markets/maps_report2/Portland_OR.pdf

They also posted that the Analog Nightlight Act was passed 12/23 -- it keeps at least one analog station on the air for about a month, as they did in Wilmington. It's for public safety announcements, and to direct people who somehow missed the digital transition where to get help. I skipped over most of it, I think plans are tentative, but it looks like Channels 2 (ABC) and 24 (KNMT) may become the designated analog nightlights. I think this was a great idea in Wilmington, and I'm glad to see it implemented nationally.

Some of our stations are sending out incorrect transport streams.
These bad streams contain continuity counter errors and/or mpeg
problems which can cause decoding errors resulting in glitches (or worse).

These problems are NOT the result of reception problems, the data
below includes only cases where reception was 100% perfect, meaning
I got an exact copy of the bits transmitted. So this is NOT a comment
on the quality of their ATSC/8VSB RF signal or about the ability to
receive that signal. That is a separate issue.

Also, this is not a comment on lossy compression or too many subchannels.
And it does not count glitches that are likely from "upstream" (perhaps a
problem getting data from the network to the TV station) if the stream
transmitted from the local station had correct counters and decoded ok.
Those are separate issues.

Data is from the last three months, to avoid including old problems that
have been fixed. Analysis does not include all possible problems, for
example the closed captioning.


Stations transmitting consistently bad transport streams:

KPTV
KRCW

Sometimes bad, sometimes ok:

KGW
KOIN
KOPB
KPXG

No problems found:

KATU
KPDX


To most observers, these problems will look like reception problems.

> Konrad, if 49 analog has a crawler announcing power
> changes, I'd never know it. I get heavy vertical herringbone
> pattern now,

Herringbone pattern means interference, typically FM (not
necessarily 88-108 MHz FM radio) Is 49 the only channel this
happens to? You might want to try and track this down now
while you still have the analogs available.

----------

This evening (2008-12-30) the news mentioned a problem with a guy
wire on one of the towers. I didn't catch which tower it was.

> Konrad, if 49 analog has a crawler announcing power
> changes, I'd never know it. I get heavy vertical herringbone
> pattern now,

Herringbone pattern means interference, typically FM (not
necessarily 88-108 MHz FM radio) Is 49 the only channel this
happens to? You might want to try and track this down now
while you still have the analogs available.

----------

This evening (2008-12-30) the news mentioned a problem with a guy
wire on one of the towers. I didn't catch which tower it was.

It was KOIN, which I think also has KRCW on it, and they were worried that both towers could go down if it fell, which I think means KATU and KNMT. But I could be wrong, lol. Either way, if they are climbing the tower, that might mean a power reduction or cut at some point. I think it was KGW who said it could take until tomorrow evening to fix.

The herringbone appeared after I lost the digital signal last week, and it is only on 49.

> The herringbone appeared after I lost the digital signal last
> week, and it is only on 49.

Since 48 and 49 are adjacent channels there is a very good chance
that the problems are related.

You can try filtering out frequencies you don't need.
I haven't found a source for inexpensive good high-pass filters
in the US. You can improvise with a UHF-VHF diplexor such as
the Pico Macom UVSJ which runs $1-3. http://www.picomacom.com
Connect your UHF antenna to the common port, terminate ($0.22-2)
the VHF port and connect the UHF port to your tuner. For additional
filtering you can use multiple UVSJ diplexors in series.

For a low pass filter, you can get the Pico Macom LPF-700. $21-28

Higher quality custom filters are available from
http://www.tinlee.com/

Another approach is to get a more directional antenna, if possible.
If the interference is not coming from the same direction as KPDX's
transmitter, a more directional antenna will pick up less of it.

Well shielded coax may help. Belden 1694A is said to be the best.
Given the price it better be. Lowe's carries RG6 quad shield at
more reasonable prices.

Your coax may be picking up interference "common mode", which the
filters above will not eliminate. The fix for this is adding a
ferrite sleeve around the coax just before the tuner. Norvac's
carries these (although not always in stock), white plastic box
with split ferrite material inside, IIRC they run $2.75 each.
Also available from mail order places.

Here is what I'm getting on ch 49 analog as of a few minutes ago:
http://e.imagehost.org/0554/ch49analog.png

ANS's baby is sure cute!

The airwaves are chock full of signals, I did an analog scan this week and it picked up almost every channel, most of them useless static, but my tv sees about twice as many unwatchable signals now.

I have read that herringbone can also come from adjacent channel interference. KPDX analog gets it from both sides, my tv sees signals at 48 and 50 (Salem LP). I'd look at filters for a long term solution, but in six weeks both Ch 48 and 49 will be vacated.

Where are all the broadcasts for the New Year??? We have nothing in Hood River today except OPB. Menopas (OPB show) versus football? Any help, please.

> I have read that herringbone can also come from adjacent channel interference.

The audio in a NTSC broadcast is FM.

> my tv sees signals at 48 and 50 (Salem LP).

You're getting NTSC on channel 48? That would interfere with KPDX digital on 48.
Or is your TV picking up 49 on 48?

> I'd look at filters for a long term solution, but in six weeks both
> Ch 48 and 49 will be vacated.

Right. That's why I only suggested generic UHF filters that will help
all UHF channels and didn't suggest 48/49 specific filters like a Jointenna.
If your problem is adjacent channel interference it might take a
rather expensive filter to fix it. Not a great investment with the big
channel shuffle coming up soon.

If your UHF antenna is outside, could it, or the balun, or coax, have been
damaged by the snow/ice/wind ? Or is aimed differently now?
Is KPXG-LP 54 analog worse then before?

My sympathies, PacoFinn! Hope you find what is wrong.

Konrad, I don't know what's on 48 analog, I see nothing recognizable. It could be spillover from 49 analog. OPB images show up on Ch. 9, but reception on 10 is very clear. The antenna (Terk HDTVa) is in the garage attic. The problem coincided with KPDX's power problem, so I don't think it's a bumped antenna, but I'll check it next time the car is moved.

I wasn't too concerned about losing the KPDX signal, since I rarely watch that channel anyway, but now I've had problems getting KATU here in Salem the past couple of days. I tuned in to watch the Rose Bowl today and couldn't get a lock - the signal strength fluctuated in the 70s on my Dish Network tuner and frequently dropped to zero. I could get maybe 5 seconds on, 5 seconds off... in other words, unwatchable. I think these variable signal problems are going to be a big deal when the transition happens... KATU used to be reliable for me, but it seems as the big date nears the signals are getting less instead of more reliable. I may have to either start inquiring about getting a stronger antenna or pay Dish to provide my locals over the satellite.

When they have workers on the tower, or an adjacent tower, I think they are used to tweaking the power down without giving viewers notice online. That isn't going to work for digital.

I did notice that signal strength was still reduced after they said the tower was fixed yesterday, and a lot of stations were bouncing this morning, but my CM7000 shows 100% for KATU now. Maybe they got a lot of calls this afternoon.

I'm sure this can seem petty, but is anyone else royally PO'd at KATU for their reversion to SD when inserting crawls into the Rose Bowl game. It's like someone rubbed vasoline on my screen. KOIN figured out a way to minimize the damage when they did flood warning crawls. Why can't KATU?

(Again, this is all very minor if someone is really saved from harm by the info in these crawls. But it really makes me not like KATU at all.)

... or pay Dish to provide my locals over the satellite.

Your options with Dish may be limited. Didn't they just drop KATU from their locals lineup? As I was reading the start of your post I was thinking maybe Dish had found a way to interrupt OTA signals coming off their dish for their subscribers. Ultimate sabotage.

Your options with Dish may be limited. Didn't they just drop KATU from their locals lineup? As I was reading the start of your post I was thinking maybe Dish had found a way to interrupt OTA signals coming off their dish for their subscribers. Ultimate sabotage.
My understanding is that they dropped ABC/Viacom everywhere. It sounds a lot like the issue Comcast had with KOIN until recently, but on a national scale.

My understanding is that they dropped ABC/Viacom everywhere. It sounds a lot like the issue Comcast had with KOIN until recently, but on a national scale.

The Viacom issue was with Time Warner and Brighthouse. Dish's Viacom contract doesn't come due till summer I believe.


Dish only dropped the Fisher owned stations in a contract dispute. They've had a couple of other disputes with operators last month, but, no widespread nationwide outages happened.

The Viacom issue was with Time Warner and Brighthouse. Dish's Viacom contract doesn't come due till summer I believe.


Dish only dropped the Fisher owned stations in a contract dispute. They've had a couple of other disputes with operators last month, but, no widespread nationwide outages happened.That's what I get for only paying half as much attention to the news as I needed to since it didn't effect me, thanks for the correction.

Earl

Your options with Dish may be limited. Didn't they just drop KATU from their locals lineup?Yeah, Dish is in a dispute with the Fisher stations. Everyone expected it to only last a few days, but as far as I know the Fisher stations have been black on Dish Network for a couple of weeks now. People south of here were really upset to lose their Corvallis/Eugene CBS station for the broadcast of the Beavers in the Sun Bowl.

Meanwhile, KATU is back to a solid 88 on my signal meter tonight. Didn't help when I wanted to watch the Rose Bowl, however...

KPDX 48 is coming in about 3-3.5 dB stronger than it has been
the last few days. 10% better quality as well.

Thanks for the report, I still have zero signal on digital, but the analog pic has changed to a very ghosty pic with the jitters. Ch 18 analog is more watchable, barely.

Forgot to mention, I read today that OPB has multiple programming on 10.4; the alternate SAP setting is OPB Music, which was apparently available only online or on digital radio. I haven't warmed up to the idea of radio on tv, it's a waste of electricity to use tv for that. JMO.

Forgot to mention, I read today that OPB has multiple programming on 10.4; the alternate SAP setting is OPB Music, which was apparently available only online or on digital radio. I haven't warmed up to the idea of radio on tv, it's a waste of electricity to use tv for that. JMO.
The alternate audio channels are really intended more to augment the video (alternate languages or descriptive video for the blind). I've noted my dislike for OPB before in this thread because of their dumping of their own reading service for the blind (that relied on SAP for distribution), so I won't go into that further. I would suggest, however, that OPB might be using the OPB Music SAP as a test case, just to see if they can do it in the new ATSC environment.

This leads me to a technical question, if any of you are more knowledgeable about ATSC than I am. OPB devotes a small video subchannel for OPB radio (no video, just audio). It then devotes a secondary audio channel of that subchannel for OPB music. My question is, does it take more bandwidth for an entire subchannel (even if there's only audio) than for an SAP (audio only)? I understand that one could choose to devote more bandwidth to one or the other, but is there anything intrinsic in the format that makes the subchannel use more bandwidth than an equivalent SAP?

TalkingRat wrote:

> I haven't warmed up to the idea of radio on tv, it's a waste
> of electricity to use tv for that. JMO.

An ATSC tuner/demod takes very little power, 2.25 Watts max for one
model I have numbers for. It's the display (CRT, LCD, plasma, whatever)
that takes most of the power in a TV. Of course a serious audio
power amp can eat a lot of power too.

You could hook the audio out of a CECB to your stereo. Or use a tuner
card or HDHR with your computer.

crossbeaux wrote:

> OPB devotes a small video subchannel for OPB radio (no video, just audio).

Do you mean the OPB-FM subchannel? There is video, but it is just occasionally
changing still frames, so it doesn't use much bandwidth.

> does it take more bandwidth for an entire subchannel (even if there's only
> audio) than for an SAP (audio only)? I understand that one could choose to
> devote more bandwidth to one or the other, but is there anything intrinsic in
> the format that makes the subchannel use more bandwidth than an equivalent SAP?

Does ATSC allow a subchannel to be audio only? I wonder if there are TVs that
would throw a hissy fit without a video PID?

Here is recent data on OPB's PIDs and the bandwidth each uses:


Active PIDs in this stream
PID=0x0, ctrl_type=0x3=PAT, pkt_cnt=51740
PID=0x30, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=12174
PID=0x31, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=26995452
PID=0x34, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=1086591
PID=0x35, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=362197
PID=0x40, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=12174
PID=0x41, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=6267648
PID=0x44, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=543296
PID=0x45, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=362197
PID=0x46, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=362197
PID=0x50, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=12174
PID=0x51, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=4856838
PID=0x54, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=542069
PID=0x55, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=362197
PID=0x60, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=12174
PID=0x61, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=1496000
PID=0x64, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=543295
PID=0x65, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=543296
PID=0x160, ctrl_type=0x0=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=5422530
PID=0x1d00, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=103384
PID=0x1d01, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=18207
PID=0x1d02, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=7508
PID=0x1d03, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=11252
PID=0x1e00, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=9912
PID=0x1e01, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=4966
PID=0x1e02, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=3105
PID=0x1e03, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=4349
PID=0x1e80, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=832
PID=0x1ffb, ctrl_type=0x5=ATSC, pkt_cnt=112298
PID=0x1fff, ctrl_type=0x14=NULL, pkt_cnt=3181189

Program 3: 10-1 OPB-HD:
PID=0x31 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x34 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x35 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
Program 4: 10-2 OPB:
PID=0x41 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x44 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x45 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x46 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = spa
Program 5: 10-3 OPBPlus:
PID=0x51 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x54 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x55 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
Program 6: 10-4 OPB-FM:
PID=0x61 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x64 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x65 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng


Data comes from the dtvstream utility:
http://pdicamillo.org/~peter/pchdtv/dtvstream-source-1.1.tar.gz

Does ATSC allow a subchannel to be audio only? I wonder if there are TVs that
would throw a hissy fit without a video PID?

There are stations doing audio-only subchannels. WSKG-DT in Binghamton NY is the one that comes to mind, but it's not the only one.

- Trip

OPB 10.5 started out as audio only. The Zenith CECB had a small "no video" message, the CM7000 put on their full screen video error message, and the TR40 inserted a pair of bouncing music notes, a bit like pong.

Adding the stills on 10.5, those images were horrid. I think OPB stole bandwidth from 10.1, because music performance got awful. Both improved when OPB dropped a subchannel, but it's still a waste of bandwidth to have a few video stills endlessly repeating. They could put it to better use on 10.3, which has always been blurry. I didn't care when it was Create, but I want better video for the former 10.4 programs.

now i was under the understanding that after DEC. 31st 8.2 was to be the KGW WEATHER CHANNEL but the past two days universal sports with the l bar blockingsome of the screen has come up like twice this weekend for about a half an hour each then it goes back to normal picture posted for those that did not see it
the second picture is of the ch. normally since the 1st local weather/skycams/radar

My guess is that it's attempting to go to the now-discontinued national feed and instead is getting Universal Sports.

- Trip

Universal sports was offered to local stations in place of Weather Plus. It looks like KGW hasn't disconnected the local weather insert portion of Weather Plus yet.

What you see now is what you'll see in the future.

i know this belongs in the comcast forum but ch308 was kgw dt 8.2 that has now been deleted
on other news KATU DT 2.2 will start carrying THIS TV http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_TV some time in FEB.

I received an update this evening from Steve Benedict - Director of Engineering at KPTV/KPDX. The KPDX digital transmitter is still operating at reduced power. The station has been unable to restore full power operations since storm damage on December 21. The channel 49 analog signal is not impacted. No restoration date has been promised.

I wonder if they plan to operate this way until they move their signal to the current KPTV-DT antenna (on channel 30) in February.

Thunderbeast

> The KPDX digital transmitter is still operating at reduced
> power. The station has been unable to restore full power
> operations since storm damage on December 21. The channel 49
> analog signal is not impacted. No restoration date has been promised.
>
> I wonder if they plan to operate this way until they move their
> signal to the current KPTV-DT antenna (on channel 30) in February.

It might be that they need parts, and the parts might be very expensive
and/or on backorder. And they likely only need them for 6 weeks.

Personally, I hope they are working on fixing the bogus transport stream
on KPTV. That problem is unlikely to be fixed by the shutdown of
reliable TV in 6 weeks.

Some of our stations are sending out incorrect transport streams.
These bad streams contain continuity counter errors and/or mpeg
problems which can cause decoding errors resulting in glitches (or worse).


Stations transmitting consistently bad transport streams:

KPTV



To most observers, these problems will look like reception problems.

Did KPTV's problems emerge recently? I have two ATSC tuners in the PC that I primarily use to watch TV, and one of them has recently developed a horribly annoying problem of playing KPTV fine for ~1 second and then freezing (both audio and video) for ~1 second, and then repeating that cyclically ad nauseum. The other tuner pulls their signal in just fine.

Their signal tuned fine for me back in December, but it's pretty consistently broken for me now.

sblom, read the the last page worth of posts. All the answers to your questions are right there.

> Did KPTV's problems emerge recently? I have two ATSC tuners in
> the PC that I primarily use to watch TV, and one of them has
> recently developed a horribly annoying problem of playing KPTV
> fine for ~1 second and then freezing (both audio and video) for
> ~1 second, and then repeating that cyclically ad nauseum. The
> other tuner pulls their signal in just fine.

The problem I see is with KPTV's data stream, not with their ATSC/8VSB
RF signal. It started in late July or early August 2008. It has
been consistantly bad since then, although varying in degree. At times
their analog transmission has had digital type problems as well.

Are these 2 tuners the same make & model, or different? It might be
a hardware problem with one tuner, or a computer problem. If the
problem tuner works okay with other stations we can probably rule
those possibilities out, which leaves a reception problem.

I lost KATU 2.1 and KRCW 32.1 about the time that we had the snow and they have not returned. Anyone else having reception problems with these? I live in the Oak Grove area of Milwaukie?

I was up in Vancouver a few days ago and my daughter-in-law's set had the same problems.

I can get the analog channels but not the digital channels.

> I lost KATU 2.1 and KRCW 32.1 about the time that we had the snow
> and they have not returned.

KATU 43 still comes in perfectly (most of the time) for me.
2008-12-01 and 2008-12-28 were exceptions. :-(

KRCW 33 reception alternates between perfect (2009-01-10) and
horrible (2009-01-04), same as always. Their transport stream is
consistantly bad, even when reception is perfect.