I get 2.1 consistently. My shaky stations are 32.1 and 49.1. 32.1 breaks up when the meter doesn't move below 100%, but occasionally I see it rapidly drop off and return, so I think it's bouncing. I have still lost 49.1 on the ground floor, but at least KPDX has a notice online now.

> 32.1 breaks up when the meter doesn't move below 100%

That might be from the bogus transport stream. Even 100% perfect
reception doesn't help. They need to fix this at the station.

> occasionally I see it rapidly drop off and return

That is said to be from multipath, although I saw it once on
OPB when the tuner was overloaded. An attenuator helped.

Something was going on last night. I got a black screen for OPB, and it was the same with analog. KATU/KOIN/KRCW were losing their signal entirely, they weren't black screen like OPB was but the signal was disrupted to the point that the lost signal messages came on. Seems ok this morning.

OPB's radio station was off the air, completly dead air, around 22:00 last night. Perhaps the TV and radio issues were on and the same.

Thanks, it is good to know it wasn't something with my signal. Since losing KPDX, I'm never sure now whether something is off the air, but I think it's the first time I've seen a black screen with station ID intact. The others stations are on the adjacent tower, so they may have reduced power for OPB work.

I hope the down time we've had the last few months is not the new norm.

> Something was going on last night.

Before or after the wind started?

KPDX 48 is even weaker than it has been recently.

KPXG 22 is completely gone this morning (9am Sun).

> I got a black screen for OPB, and it was the same with analog.

I had a couple of momentary dropouts (static/snow) on either OPB or
Fox analog (I forget which) Sat evening.

> I think it's the first time I've seen a black screen with
> station ID intact.

OPB used to do this a lot on both digital and analog. I haven't
seen it as often recently. I get it even when reception is 100% perfect.
My theory is that OPB's decoder gets confused and outputs a plain black
screen and then they overlay the OPB logo on top of that and transmit it.

I saw a similar thing once on Fox and once on UPN, except it went green
instead of black.

What sort of error correction do they use between the network and the
TV station? I suspect it isn't getting the job done.

I didn't notice the wind. My antenna is in the attic.

Since radio went out too, I imagine it was a problem OPB knew about, and that the other stations cut power while they fixed it.

I didn't see the problem you saw with 22.x this morning, although the initial lock was a little slow. Everything was at 100%, except for the new 16.x which was wobbling 22-26, and last night was in the low to mid teens, on CM7000 scale. TR40 scale had 16.x at 58, and everything else 88-93.

I scanned for new channels this am, and the CM7000 saw 32's real frequency as a new digital channel, which it called 33.1.

> I didn't notice the wind. My antenna is in the attic.

My antennas are in the attic also. I notice the wind when it
sounds like it is trying to rip the house apart. :-(

Some people report reception problem due to wind blowing trees around.

Rapidly moving objects that reflect or attenuate the signal could cause multipath that even the latest generation tuners couldn't correct.



> I didn't notice the wind. My antenna is in the attic.

My antennas are in the attic also. I notice the wind when it
sounds like it is trying to rip the house apart. :-(

Some people report reception problem due to wind blowing trees around.

Does OBP broadcast in 5.1 ota?

Currently, OPB transmits 2.0 sound (i.e., stereo) for its HD service. I assume this is to conserve bits.

Some programs appear to be encoded with matrix surround, which can be recovered with a Dolby Pro Logic or Pro Logic II decoder. It's no substitute for 5.1 sound but better than nothing. Your A/V receiver may engage this decoder automatically when fed with 2.0 sound.

Yet another delay for the DTV transition, seems it's going to be moved to June 12th now...
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gFQTV6u7aQ_ujqqX5bFP5QPRIVgAD95SJ1K09

Senate nears deal to delay digital TV transition

By JOELLE TESSLER – 17 hours ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Senate appeared close to agreement late Thursday on a bill to delay next month's planned transition from analog to digital television broadcasting to June 12 — setting the stage for a vote early next week.

Senate Republicans last week blocked Democratic efforts to push back the Feb. 17 deadline for the analog shutoff. The Democrats cited mounting concerns that too many Americans who rely on analog TV sets to pick up over-the-air broadcast signals won't be ready.

The Nielsen Co. said Thursday that more than 6.5 million U.S. households are still not prepared for the upcoming transition and could see their TV sets go dark next month.

"The shameful truth is that we are not poised to do this transition right," said Senate Commerce Committee Chairman John D. Rockefeller, D-W.V., author of the bill to delay the switchover. "We are only weeks away from doing it dreadfully wrong — and leaving consumers with the consequences."

Republicans in both the House and Senate have raised concerns that a delay would confuse consumers, create added costs for television stations that would have to continue broadcasting both analog and digital signals and burden wireless companies and public safety agencies waiting for spectrum that will be freed up by the switch.

But Rockefeller said late Thursday that he had reached a bipartisan compromise and won the crucial support of the committee's top Republican, Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas.

Rockefeller's bill aims to address Republican concerns by allowing broadcast stations to make the switch from analog to digital signals sooner than the June 12 deadline if they choose to — a provision consistent with the current law mandating a Feb. 17 transition. It would also permit public safety agencies to take over vacant spectrum that has been promised to them as soon as it becomes available.

In 2005, Congress required broadcasters to switch from analog to digital signals, which are more efficient, to free up valuable chunks of wireless spectrum to be used for commercial wireless services and interoperable emergency-response networks.

But President Barack Obama earlier this month called for the transition date to be postponed after the Commerce Department hit a $1.34 billion funding limit for coupons to subsidize digital TV converter boxes for consumers. The boxes, which generally cost between $40 and $80 each and can be purchased without a coupon, translate digital signals back into analog ones for older TVs.

The National Telecommunications and Information Administration, the arm of the Commerce Department administering the program, is now sending out new coupons only as older, unredeemed ones reach a 90-day expiration date and free up more money for the program. The NTIA had nearly 2.6 million coupon requests on a waiting list as of Wednesday.

If Rockefeller's bill passes the Senate next week, the matter goes next to the House. With the clock ticking down on Feb. 17, the quickest course of action for Congress would be for the House to simply pass the Senate bill.

House Commerce Committee Chairman Henry Waxman, D-Calif., postponed a committee vote on his own proposal to delay the digital transition earlier this week, saying he wanted to wait and see how the debate plays out in the Senate.

What a mess, if Congress says June 12 to the press, while telling stations they can drop analog whenever they want. Maybe KPTV will move early so KPDX can get back on the air. On my TVFool, KPDX analog noise margin is 35, about the same as KRCW-LP.

At least this time the delay is only a few months, not years, as it was in the past.

/sarcasm

KOIN has the right idea, ending the new confusion about the dates. They got their message out multiple ways. I saw it on Trip's FCC list, heard it on the news, and the next day saw the ticker on analog. Eye-catching text box with a subject label on top, big font, and they repeated the nouns (pronouns on a ticker are useless if you missed the start), and the entire message repeated, so it got my attention in many ways.

Any word about what the other networks are doing? I hope they are as visible as KOIN. Nielsen shows Portland 10% unready, the NTIA calls us an at-risk area, but they forget that we'll have a dozen plus analog stations post transition. It's not like some TVFool charts I've seen, where analog shutdown means there's no analog left.

At least this time the delay is only a few months, not years, as it was in the past.

/sarcasm
How much you wanna bet that the cutoff will now be moved a few more weeks, then a few more days, then stations will be pleading for a few more months again?

The stations? The stations don't want a delay at all. This is consumer groups and politicians playing the CYA game.

- Trip

The stations? The stations don't want a delay at all. This is consumer groups and politicians playing the CYA game.

No one is trying to stop stations from pulling the plug and the proposal doesn't do this. The proposed extension clearly says that stations will be allowed to cut off any time they want after the original February date. In fact this has been possible for a couple of years with FCC approval but only a handful of stations have done that. Every other station is planning to have their analog transmitter on until the very last second it's legal.

So if the stations really don't want a delay, they'll all pull the plug next month as planned and this "extension" will be forgotten the next day.

The stations don't want to be the first one off the air. They like the hard date because it's all the stations at once, and people won't try to blame any individual station.

They don't want the extension but might very well stay on the air anyway just to avoid being that "first station off." Hopefully stations in various markets will talk to each other and come up with an agreement to terminate on schedule anyway.

- Trip

The stations don't want to be the first one off the air. They like the hard date because it's all the stations at once, and people won't try to blame any individual station.
This has not happened with the handful of stations that have already turned off their analog transmitters.

This has not happened with the handful of stations that have already turned off their analog transmitters.

My communications with engineers tells me it varies. There are places where an analog shutoff has gone smoothly and other places where it was a disaster. A gamble the stations don't want to take.

- Trip

For last couple of weeks, I've had trouble holding a picture from 6-1. My other stations seem fine. 32-1 is having a occasional problems. I first noticed it druing the wind storms, but thought it would go away when winds died down. But it's remained bad.


I checked signal strength today, and see that 6-1 is running about 60-66 on my TV, 32-1 74-80.

Has KOIN done something to reduce their power output?

Thanks,
Rick

No issues with 6-1 here in Vancouver , only local I have issues with is 32-1 (indoor antenna) .

- Jason

> Has KOIN done something to reduce their power output?

KOIN normally comes in at 100% signal strength,
80-90% signal quality, after a splitter.

Tonight (2009-01-26) Big Bang Theory came in at 100% strength,
85% quality, so it looks normal here.

> 32-1 is having a occasional problems

They are almost always bad here. :-(
Dances with Wolves part2 (3-5 am) came in at
strength = 100% quality = 85% which should be fine,
but 2609 packets failed forward error correction
and that's what counts. Previous attempt on the
17th 2500524 packets failed forward error correction.
Part 1 on the 10th I got perfect reception, but
their datastream was bogus.

KPXG was dead awhile Sunday evening.

Word is that the Senate has approved a 4 month delay in
pulling the plug on reliable TV. We need more like 4 years,
maybe another generation or two of demodulators will help?
Help reception that is, the bogus datastreams have to be
fixed at the TV stations.

Who has bogus datastreams and why are they booooogus? (click n clack reference)



>
Help reception that is, the bogus datastreams have to be
fixed at the TV stations.

dbird29> Who has bogus datastreams and why are they booooogus? (click n clack reference)

I don't know why they are bogus. Ask the engineers at the TV stations.
Seriously, we need to ask them about this. For all I know they don't
know about it. I asked Steve (KPTV) awhile back, since KPTV went from
always good to always bad last fall. Haven't received a reply, and their
datastream is still bad. :-( Does anyone have a complete list of email
addresses for all the local TV station engineering depts?

The who part I can answer. Here is an encore presentation of my
posting from about a month ago. (So the data is from approx Oct-Dec 2008.
I haven't noticed any changes since then.) Presented without commercial
interruption. :-)

------------------------------------------

Some of our stations are sending out incorrect transport streams.
These bad streams contain continuity counter errors and/or mpeg
problems which can cause decoding errors resulting in glitches (or worse).

These problems are NOT the result of reception problems, the data
below includes only cases where reception was 100% perfect, meaning
I got an exact copy of the bits transmitted. So this is NOT a comment
on the quality of their ATSC/8VSB RF signal or about the ability to
receive that signal. That is a separate issue.

Also, this is not a comment on lossy compression or too many subchannels.
And it does not count glitches that are likely from "upstream" (perhaps a
problem getting data from the network to the TV station) if the stream
transmitted from the local station had correct counters and decoded ok.
Those are separate issues.

Data is from the last three months, to avoid including old problems that
have been fixed. Analysis does not include all possible problems, for
example the closed captioning.


Stations transmitting consistently bad transport streams:

KPTV
KRCW

Sometimes bad, sometimes ok:

KGW
KOIN
KOPB
KPXG

No problems found:

KATU
KPDX


To most observers, these problems will look like reception problems.

KOPB (as well as KOAB, KOAC) has joined KOIN and is now on the FCC list of analog stations going silent Feb 17. And thanks, Trip, for providing the list to us!

KOPB (as well as KOAB, KOAC) has joined KOIN and is now on the FCC list of analog stations going silent Feb 17. And thanks, Trip, for providing the list to us!

Glad to help! :)

- Trip

Thank Konrad and deGame

I'll check my antenna whenn it's fit to walk on the roof. Strangely enough, I was checking inside cabling yesterday trying a few things and power was still reading 45-55 with drops to zero.

But last night at least from 8:00 pm on, power was up in high 70's and had no trouble with signal drops. But I checked again this morning and strength is back down to 45-55.

Any chance there is work going on and they are reducing power during the day?

Thanks,
Rick

Rick, analog 6 was off the air this morning, there was a notice on KOIN's website that it would be down today for work. I'd say there's a good chance digital power was reduced as well, they have done that in the past for worker safety, and we usually don't hear unless it's a total shutdown.

My communications with engineers tells me it varies. There are places where an analog shutoff has gone smoothly and other places where it was a disaster. A gamble the stations don't want to take.
So what happened at the stations where it was a disaster?

And what counts as a "disaster" at a television station these days? A few angry phone calls?

So what happened at the stations where it was a disaster?

And what counts as a "disaster" at a television station these days? A few angry phone calls?

20+ calls per day two months after the fact?

So many calls that people are starting rumors that they're "not answering the phones" since they don't have enough people to handle them all?

- Trip

20+ calls per day two months after the fact?
That's all? Oh dear, that's a phone call every half hour! I'd love to know what station couldn't deal with this avalanche.

I wish my company could release a product and only get twenty phone calls a day! It sounds like they just hate their viewers.

So many calls that people are starting rumors that they're "not answering the phones" since they don't have enough people to handle them all?
With the money they saved on their electric bill by turning off their analog transmitter, they could have hired a temp or two for two months to answer the phones! They probably get more phone calls when their closed captioning is messed up.

What do you want, riots in the street?

A good transition is probably Hawaii, where the last figures I heard were very very few calls. Only 20 or so to one station in the first day or two, not sure how the rest of it turned out.

Wilmington was an example of a poor transition. WECT's transmitter was moved, which proved to be the largest problem, but out of 14,000 OTA households, there were something like 2,000 phone calls, even with the FCC's full support and firefighters helping to install boxes.

- Trip

I don't know that Hawaii was such a great transition, maybe just more laid back. I haven't seen stats, but there were feature stories about people losing all but one station, and the need for taller towers. The tower that was being shipped and got lost meant one side of an island would have no TV for a couple weeks. One station blew a transmitter and was off the air a couple hours, although I suppose that may be part of the expected glitches of flash-cutting.

In Portland, I don't know what to think. KOIN's DTV poll today, 6.5% don't even know if they are ready or not, and 20% wanted a delay. KATU's poll today, 13% aren't ready. I'm not sure if that means we're laid back, or very unready. There didn't seem to be any fuss about ION's early move, so that makes me think maybe laid back is what we are.

What do you want, riots in the street?
No, a real disaster, meaning the transition failed or the station went out of business.

Wilmington was an example of a poor transition. WECT's transmitter was moved, which proved to be the largest problem, but out of 14,000 OTA households, there were something like 2,000 phone calls, even with the FCC's full support and firefighters helping to install boxes.
The extensive FCC report on their DTV transition logged 424 legitimate calls. A Wikipedia article says 1,200 calls but it doesn't say over what period that was. Many could have been people calling for information before analog was shut down. They should probably expect about 10% of their OTA viewers to need assistance.

No, a real disaster, meaning the transition failed or the station went out of business.

Define "transition failed." What does that even mean?

And stations aren't going to go out of business because 85% of viewership comes from cable/satellite.

- Trip

I don't know that Hawaii was such a great transition, maybe just more laid back. I haven't seen stats, but there were feature stories about people losing all but one station, and the need for taller towers. The tower that was being shipped and got lost meant one side of an island would have no TV for a couple weeks. One station blew a transmitter and was off the air a couple hours, although I suppose that may be part of the expected glitches of flash-cutting.

Hawaii's stations need more power. Many of the stations on Oahu are UHFs running like 40 kW, when they should have a lot more power. If I'm thinking of the right situation, the one that had the equipment mixup is a single PBS translator on the big island.

In Portland, I don't know what to think. KOIN's DTV poll today, 6.5% don't even know if they are ready or not, and 20% wanted a delay. KATU's poll today, 13% aren't ready. I'm not sure if that means we're laid back, or very unready. There didn't seem to be any fuss about ION's early move, so that makes me think maybe laid back is what we are.

Or, more likely, nobody watches ION. :D

- Trip

Define "transition failed." What does that even mean?
The station felt that the cost of supporting the transition was too much so they had to turn the analog transmitter back on or lose revenue.

And stations aren't going to go out of business because 85% of viewership comes from cable/satellite.
Great. They have nothing to worry about unlike thousand of other businesses. They just need to get enough staff to get their customers' through the transition just like any real business releasing a new product for the first time in fifty years. It's not like people are going to watch CSI: Miami on a competing channel.

I wonder if stations are the ones who aren't prepared for the transition.

It was PBS, I didn't remember which island. It wasn't that their plan was bad, it's just that stuff like that happens. From what I read they did plan on taller towers, just a year or two away.

You don't think they noticed ION was gone? With TV, you don't miss it until it isn't there, then one night there's nothing on, and you think about all those recycled shows, like NCIS and Boston Legal and James Bond. Isn't 22.3 the one with all those bikinis?

It was PBS, I didn't remember which island. It wasn't that their plan was bad, it's just that stuff like that happens. From what I read they did plan on taller towers, just a year or two away.

You don't think they noticed ION was gone? With TV, you don't miss it until it isn't there, then one night there's nothing on, and you think about all those recycled shows, like NCIS and Boston Legal and James Bond. Isn't 22.3 the one with all those bikinis?

Yes it is. If ION disappeared from his analog lineup, my dad would make a note of it and otherwise not care, as there's really nothing on it he finds to be worth watching. Most people I've spoken with go "there's a channel 38?" (ION where I live)

Now if ION Life disappeared he might care a little more, but he claims he hasn't seen a new program on that channel in months. All reruns that have been shown multiple times.

- Trip

KATU will launch 2.2 This tv on monday at 12am according to an email i got from someone at katu (2.2 right now is an sd version of the main channel)

http://www.katu.com/about/schedule
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_TV

During the Dec storm, I e-mailed KPDX reference their "poor signal" over here in Camas, they resonded they were at "about 1/2 power" due to damage, and fixing (?)...that's a month ago, I still have no better than 57-59 signal strength peak on ch 49-1?? Anybody know if they have fixed the problem or when they will be back to full power??

Also, KOXI-CA (ch 20) did call me back too!! (this 'lil Camas station (a1 network) is very grainey and apparently broadcast from "elsewhere" - I get a 19'' compass reading from Antennaweb.org so I must be getting it from the back of my antenna as I'm about 220' orientation to Port antenna farm - and I live in Lacamas Meadows in Camas couple miles east of 192nd and just south of Lake Road on the south side of Lacamas Lake @ about 250' elevation w/o trees, nor interfering buildings, etc.,...they DO plan to move their transmitter to the antenna farm in Portland "sometime"....

I'm new to the area but, with a new Winegard HQ antenna in my single story attic w/ one HDTV connected straight (no splits) to my Toshiba Regza HDTV via RG6 (HDMI cable from my laptop to thtv also moves sound through 14 external speakers and the tv is a BIG second monitor too:) I'm getting:

2-1,2 6-1 8-1,2, 10-1,2,3, 22-1,3 32-1 (all previous are mid-high 80's/to low 90's signal strength and great!) 12-1, (high 70's to 80 signal-4 bars, it's great too, 20 (analog and very grainey, sound mostly "ok" but, ovrall about unwatchable), 24-1,4 (high 70's low/80's strength is ok, but, I rarely watch these...) 26 (K26RJ, analog- best if I orient antenna to about 195' degrees but that deteriorates the Portland signals so I've reoriented back to about 220', ...so it's almost unwatchable w/ hissing/static sound too) 35 (HSN analog but much like KOXI in quality w/ poorer picture - very unwatchable), 49-1 (was fine about 80+ peak signal till Dec storm, now about 57-59 peak, high 50's steady, orienting antenna up to close to 220' has stopped the pixeling though but deterated ch 26)...

summary: Digital sigs from: KATU, KOIN, KGW, OPB, KPTV, TBN, KRCW are alll fine ....KPDX 49-1 is watchable "ok" right now w/ low power me thinks, but chs. 20, 26, 35 ( all are analog signals) are really overall unwatchable...

I can't see 17-1 nor hear it at all though the tv's signal search finds it w/ totally blank screen and no sound,

I just searched and got 16-1,2,3 THANX! Pixeling a bit so up to the antenna and tweaked, mmm, I just did can't get better than high 40's signal so it'll remain weak but, most pixeling is gone and sound is good+, at least it's there and watchable, must be a LOW power signal though if from Portland Area......Looks promising but, needs a few more watts for east of Vancouver to enjoy!!

17-1 however doesn't even register, I'll seach again on TV...but, I imagine 17-1 is too low power/far away to receive in west side of Camas??...thoughts?? These chanels would be nice along w/ KOXI for a better signal when KOXI-CA moves to the Port antenna farm...

I've found all the analog repeaters and deleted, almost ALL analog is pretty ghosty here......Am I missing anything? I've oriented and reoriented antenna from 190' to about 235' and between so there are some tradeoffs on all signals but, I'd like to get ch 20 and maybe 26 better w/o loss on the digital signals, 17-1 that's listed on rabbit ears website (thanx for the tip!)...

Reception tips for 49-1 or news on their power??

Appreciate the inputs....oh, updates on what the other broadcasters (KATU, KOIN, etc.,) when, what, etc., they will be broadcasting on their "other" digital signals (like 2-2 or 6-2, etc., similar to what KGW is doing w/ KGWWeather Channelon 8-2)?

Again, my signal search finds only a 17-1 but, no pic or sound...16-1,2,3 is only high 40's w/ antenna tweaked but pixels occasionally exist...

I shouldn't have to re-tweak my antenna as the towers aren't moving, just rerun the signal search on Feb 17th and occasionaly after I imagine?? :)

Thanks for the This TV news. Whoever makes up these names like .2 and this tv hasn't thought about what happens when people want to google them.

More news -- Feb 16, ION goes HD, initially in 20 markets, we're one of them. Later in the year they complete the HD rollout in other markets and add Qubo and ION Life in HD. Whether they can actually fit 3 HDs in there remains to be seen.

Thanks for the This TV news. Whoever makes up these names like .2 and this tv hasn't thought about what happens when people want to google them.

More news -- Feb 16, ION goes HD, initially in 20 markets, we're one of them. Later in the year they complete the HD rollout in other markets and add Qubo and ION Life in HD. Whether they can actually fit 3 HDs in there remains to be seen.

They'll only be doing one HD over the air. The other two will be available to cable companies in HD, but not OTA. Not sure why they'd want them in HD, but...

- Trip

Jeff,
Half power on KPDX, you have more info than I had. I get 49.1 only on one TV now. Even before the power hit there was interference from Ch 47 and 49. If the fix is slow or costly, what's the point, they will be moving Feb 17 (we hope).

K21GX, a Christian station in Salem, has a repeater K26GJ in Portland. They were having connection issues with their Salem station but are now back on the air.

KORS-CA is a weak signal for me, at first it I got it only in an upstairs room, but a month ago it got stronger. it's the 16.1-16.3 one, I think transmitting from the Portland towers. There are a lot of virtual and real CH 16s around here, I can't keep them straight. KORS is an affiliate of KOXI and KORK (35).

I'm too far south for 20 analog, but 17 (KWVT) from Salem has the same content. KWVT digital is 16.1, from Salem, only 2 kW so I probably wouldn't get it with my indoor antenna.

For the LPs, Wikipedia is a great place to find information if you know the call letters. They have the station detail in a table off to the right, showing digital and analog location and power, and they show subchannel info in the body of the page.

For the digital content, Rabbit Ears has a full listing all in one location, link below. Click on "Portland, Oregon" (it's rank 27) to expand, and then click the "expand all" link to see subchannel detail. The technical data link gives you tower location and contour maps and takes you to more info on the FCC site. Yay, Trip!

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php

Subchannels coming:
.2 (aka dot2 network) will be coming to Fox or KPDX, no decision which one.
Skihoodoo's post a few posts up has the "This TV" announcement for KATU.

here is a Wiki list of Oregon stations. It isn't complete, but it's a start.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_television_stations_in_Oregon

There's also this NTIA list of LPs by state:
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/LPTVmap.html


Thanks for the extra ION HD news, Trip! I had visions of 3 HDs looking a lot like their SD, bad blur. I don't quite understand the point of cartoons in HD.

Gee, it's a newsy day today.

As Congress debates a possible delay in next month's conversion from analog to digital television broadcasts, a number of Portland TV stations said this morning that they will make the transition on Feb. 17 regardless of what Congress decides.

"It's a catch-22 in a lot of ways," said Tara Taylor, Oregon Public Broadcasting's vice president of marketing. "If you delay it, it's just more confusion. So we think the best thing to do is just to go forward with Feb. 17."

The decision affects OPB's main transmitters in Portland, Eugene, Corvallis, Bend and La Grande. OPB translator broadcasts in rural parts of the state will stay analog for the time being.

Other Oregon broadcasters committed to the digital conversion next month include KOIN (6), KPTV (12) and KPDX (49). KGW (8) said it is very likely to make the transition on Feb. 17, too.

"We don't want to be the only ones out there," said Eric Dausman, KGW's director of technology.

KATU (2) could not be immediately reached for comment.

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/index.ssf/2009/01/opb_others_commit_to_digital_t.html

> KATU will launch 2.2 This tv on monday at 12am according
> to an email i got from someone at katu

Titan TV listings already have them showing a 1958 alien
vampire movie this evening. Most likely someone at katu
is better informed than titan.

Suggestions for a better source of listings than titan?
A lot of their listings are TBA or just plain wrong.

I use tvguide.com but they don't have the This TV listing yet.

:( Just today - Thursday (see above post) I did a new search on my HDTV, reoriented my antenna and found channel 16-1,2,3 They were marginal strenght (low-mid 40's) but, I tweaked my antenna a bit and did come a hair better w/ just a little occasional clipping/pixeling...the music channel on 16-2 was a decent addition, though it appears to be in "mono" and 16-1 HSN IS in stereo, go figure!..:)

However, early evening - tonight they are "out" barely visable, just a big "clip/pixel(s)", later are "in
but w/ same marginal (high 40's peak strength) signal..:mad:

...anyone know if they cut PM power or are having transmission problems??:confused:

Appreciate annyone else trying to tune them in, especiallly anybody in East Vancouver, Camas, Washougal, etc.,

I'm using the Weingard HD 1080 antenna (primarily due to some attic size constraints) based on various recommendations for: being "about 17 miles" from the PDX antenna farm and the rolling (hills) terrain, no trees or other houses close by to see "through" and my elevation @ about 250~ feet,..it's mounted in my attic, w/ about 75ft of RG6 direct to my Toshiba HDTV..thoughts on this antenna/combo?

Gain
CH 7
CH 9
CH 11
CH 13
CH 14
CH 32
CH 44
CH 56
CH 69

db over reference dipole
-11
-8
-1
0.0
6.0
7.5
10.7
7.5
7.5

beamwidth at half power points (°)
72
65
39
0
0
80
52
64
73

front-to-back ratio
0
0
0
0
-2
-6
-7
-8
-8



thanx!

OPB is making the digital-only switch on Feb. 17 and is going to have a DTV support phone bank (for most of the local stations) set up for roughly a week on either side of the digital switch Feb 17/18. We're looking for temporary, paid staff to answer calls.

The job involves helping viewers over the phone with all aspects of their own conversion process, from getting and setting up converter boxes to antenna/reception issues, as well as the complications when a VCR is part of the set-up, etc.

We'll be providing training and a reference manual, but some technical background or aptitude and the ability to be patient, clear and helpful on the phone with non-technical callers is essential.

Hiring will begin the week of Feb 2. Training will be on Feb 10; the phone bank begins on Thursday, Feb 12 and is expected to run through Feb 22.

I can't think of any group already more aware of the issue. If interested, please send a resume and a cover letter with an relevant experience to thaydon@opb.org

Thanks!
John Bell
Associate Director of Membership
On-Air, On-Line and Event Fundraising
OPB

for a week of work?? IMHO Not worth the bother for us retired folks! :)..though a letter "splainen" the above via the e-mail link might suffuce? What is the pay (since the commute would make it a bit of concern) and hours??

The station felt that the cost of supporting the transition was too much so they had to turn the analog transmitter back on or lose revenue.

Check out the STA that WSUR in Puerto Rico filed yesterday.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1292123&Service=TV&Form_id=911&Facility_id=19776

- Trip

From KGW's website:

KGW continues to move forward with plans end analog broadcasting on February 17th unless the US Congress steps in to pass a law that would force this date back.

Industry insiders believe that Congress will pass the delay in the next few days. However, both House and Senate versions of the bills allow for stations to switch off analog on February 17th.

In Portland, most TV station ownerships have indicated that they plan to switch on February 17th. KGW will likely switch-off its analog transmitter if all of the other stations in town plan to do the same.

In order to avoid viewer confusion, all stations should shut off analog operations on the same day. It will be very confusing to viewers that participated in the Government converter box program to have to switch their converter boxes on and off depending on what station they want to watch.

Most of the difficult technical work has been done to get ready for February 17th. It will take KGW engineers about one hour to disconnect the old analog equipment on Channel 8 and to connect the new digital equipment. Right now, this work is scheduled for 12:01AM on February 18th.

Puerto Rico is running back to analog, and Portland is running the opposite direction. Everyone but KATU and KRCW has chimed in.

ETA: I should have said KATU, KRCW, and KNMT. KPTV and KPDX are now officially on the FCC silent list for Feb 17.

for a week of work?? IMHO Not worth the bother for us retired folks! :)..though a letter "splainen" the above via the e-mail link might suffuce? What is the pay (since the commute would make it a bit of concern) and hours??

This very well may be the worst post I've ever seen on AVS Forums. The folks from public broadcast offer an opportunity to help thier station, the community and pickup a little cash (by all rights, this should be a volunteer position) to help people get through the conversion, and all you can muster is some pissy utterance why it's not right for YOU.

By in large, the folks that hang out at this website are the most knowledgeable, helpful and giving people you could ever hope to interact with. But not YOU, mister eleven posts, all you can offer is "why can't you accommodate my needs". You've truly embarrassed the entire forum in the eyes of a local broadcaster turning to us for some help.

It's fortunate you're retired because I'd be hard pressed to think of an employer that would consider talking to a myopic candidate such as yourself. Given the spirit of sharing information that built this website, why are you even here?

F,O & D to you then!....I'm makin a point for everyone that may be MOST qualified to help PBS...if it takes more time to apply than the job will last, the best available probably aren't going to be helping, they are the busiest and already working...since I among others may be interested in helping as a volunteer or in other capacity, I can't see how those who are "best qualified" out there are going to go thru all the rest of the "bureaucracy" (letter and resume et all) that was asked for - that's typical of a quasi-govt org like PBS I imagine, ...though I was hoping that my message might convince PBS to make it a bit easier for those who want to help - but, may decide teh process is too much for the reward...I infered in my message that a " brief letter" via the link above outlining qualifications and ability should be enough to warrant an interview or not for a very short term job...

So it's better to remember: not to say anything if it can't be nice. And, w/ only 11 posts, I STILL find MY eyes and ears well outnumber my "mouth"..you should look in the mirror and note the same:mad: With 581 posts you DO talk a lot I guess...About what do you talk about since you don't have much of a profile that tells us if you "walk the talk", I'd suspect not...

I'm just a disabled and retired USAF vet of 15 years, "fortunate and myopic" though is what YOU infer about someone you don't even know...
I owned my own business helping military families for 15+ years and have hired more candidates/applicants for MANY positions than you've probably ever seen...and...
I'm here because it's free speech and free flow of information that I believe in, in fact I've taken an oath to the same, what did YOU ever do for the good of others besides post negative things about people you've never met??
I'm not here to attack personailites like you seem to do...hiding behind a computer to boot...

So off to run the lake, finish at the gym take my meds and not bother anymore w/ comments like yours. PROPER Decorum SHOULD be a qualification of beig here, you appear to not have any...

F,O & D to you then!....I'm just makin a point, takes more time to apply than the job will last..since I'd be interested in helping as a volunteer or in other capacity, I couldn't even see going thru all the rest of the bureaucracy-typical of a quasi-govt org like PB S I imagine...So it's better to not say anything if it can't be nice. And, w/ only 11 posts, I STIlL find MY eyes and ears well outnumber my "mouth"..you should look in the mirror and note the same:mad:

I can assure you we really don't care how long it takes you to prepare a resume or job application, nor do we really care about whatever problem you may have with "bureaucracy-typical quasi-govt org"s.

What I do believe is, after years of members around here working to gain the trust of local broadcasters to consider us a legitimate and useful resource, at least two posts in your massive volume of work have been counterproductive in advancing that aim.

Check out the STA that WSUR in Puerto Rico filed yesterday.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1292123&Service=TV&Form_id=911&Facility_id=19776
I wish the report would say what the "extraordinary circumstances" are for that station. It says they just "don't believe" digital-only would be a good thing for them if the national transition is delayed which is a strange bit of speculation.

Looks like katu has updated the guide to reflect Programming Unavailable till 5am on monday for ch 2.2

this is an email i just received from someone at katu
"Hmmm, we're still on for midnight!"

Regarding the digital transition situation with OPB, I think we should all just take a deep breath and forgive each other. OPB may be a bureaucracy, and I've certainly had my share of troubles with them over the last couple of years, but they are genuinely trying to help people through digital transition. Maybe it's because their audience is skewed a bit older, but I think they're going above and beyond what the other stations in town are doing. They have asked for volunteers to help, and I can't imagine why they're now offering to pay people, unless they don't think they have enough volunteers.

I know they've put together an entire notebook of facts about the transition to help their phone support people. And I imagine the training would involve not only getting familiar with the training material (such as in which areas of the state OPB will remain analog because of translators), but also becoming familiar with the phone system they use.

But if you think OPB is too bureaucratic, consider volunteering with Elders in Action, which is targeting, obviously, the elderly. I believe they will have a phone bank in conjunction with KOIN, and they also will have volunteers visiting homes to help people install converter boxes. I haven't volunteered with them before, but I'm planning to attend their training session Monday and see if I can be of any help.

It may be a local time zone thing. TVGuide shows it starting at 00:00:00, and Outer Limits as 2 am. KATU has it as 5 am, maybe they are picking up ET and not converting yet.

Either way, midnight or 5 am, it will be something else to look at. :-)

Go to cbs58 website.
This is the local CBS station in Milwaukee, Wisconsin which has been running THIS on their 58.3. That will show what is playing on their station (remember it is Central Time Zone). That will give you a good idea what will be playing on 2.2 in Portland. They ran "Pride and Prejudice" last Saturday night. Their overnite fare seems to be a movie and some episodes of Twilight Zone, Patty Duke show, Mr. Ed, Outer Limits. Kid shows and cartoons on weekend mornings and early midweek morns. I think the Milwaukee station started running THIS early December.

Titan and KATU are now in sync, for a 5 am launch. Kimco, thanks for the place to sanity check the times. CBS58 says Outer Limits is on at 4 am, and perhaps they time delay it, as in "5 ET/PT, 4 Central"

It's just TVGuide who hasn't updated. They think it launches at midnight, and that Outer Limits is on at 2 am. I trust KATU to know, although I am very surprised there is no big fanfare on their site. It would further the digital transition to be talking up the new subchannels.

I don't know about Titan. I believe I know why they are starting at 5AM instead of 0:00 or some other time. I had heard they were starting on Feb 1 but the last I heard was Feb 2. I did no know what time they were shooting for but 5AM makes sense to me. My latest info is what I read on this site.

I think most of the good programming will be afternoon/evening. I do not believe they have a delay for PT. I think there is one feed for all time zones. At least, what I have seen is that whatever is on the CBS58.3 schedule is two hours different than what it is on Pacific time and, I believe, on hour different in Eastern time.

I have not seen a THIS website. I started searching in December and basically picked up most info by doing Yahoo searches which eventually led me to the Milwaukee station site. General info on THIS was picked up from searches. They may have put up a website by now but I have not checked.

I do not know what 32.2 will be but I know they have had one running in the past as well as 6.2. I have not seen a 12.2 or a 49.2.

The question is, after the conversion, are they still going to keep their original numbers since they will no longer be on those channels? If KATU stays on 43, are they going to keep the nomenclature as 2? Same with KOIN, and KPDX? 8, 10, and 12 will be back on those channels so those will be still correct.

We'll know in a few days, anyway. Yes, they retain their old channel number as a virtual channel, it is considered part of their station branding. Information carried in PSIP points to the real frequency so the tuner knows where to look. There are exceptions, where they reassign a virtual channel number to avoid a conflict.

Fox or KPDX will carry .2 programming, I can't remember if that was the launch that was pushed out because of the economy. And maybe someone will pick up RTN.

Yes, we will know if a few days.
Actually, the start time for THIS on 2.2 will most probably be Monday morning at 0:00, not 5:00

We'll know in a few days, anyway. Yes, they retain their old channel number as a virtual channel, it is considered part of their station branding. Information carried in PSIP points to the real frequency so the tuner knows where to look. There are exceptions, where they reassign a virtual channel number to avoid a conflict.

Fox or KPDX will carry .2 programming, I can't remember if that was the launch that was pushed out because of the economy. And maybe someone will pick up RTN.

The launch for .2 was originally scheduled for last October, then it got pushed to November and now to April. It's most definitely the economy. Many stations that agreed to carry .2 are now cutting back on capital outlay. Decoders and encoders and such are on hold.

I wouldn't be surprised if closer to April, the .2 net gets pushed out again.

The start time for THIS on 2.2 will be tomorrow night, Sunday night at midnight, or at 0:00 Monday morning, Feb 2.
Probably in the middle of a movie, since they usually start at 11PM.

Since Skihoodoo has the email contact at KATU, 0:00 Monday sounds right. I noticed that the EPG has THIS listings already.

i just noticed that the epg info was added for THIS TV
if it starts at 00:00 on monday like it is suppose to it will be at the start of True Confessions
i just hope that tribune has the updated info that 2.2 is launching in there system to push out to tivo so that we get the guide info and directv so people with the am21 ota adaptor can see 2.2 no ota scan on that adaptor

The "Official" start for THIS will be at 5AM. However, the feed change will happen at midnite. The time between that and 5 will be to check out the system and make sure everything is working correctly. There may or may not be interruptions or other "things".

Even now, you might get a listing of what is on THIS by clicking on description or guide or whatever your remote says, on 2.2, while it is on KATU SD. At 3AM, it shows "Living Large" which is what is currently on until 4AM.

Hi All!
I recently acquired a pal-dvr. It seems to be working fairly well but with a little strangeness relating to the TVGOS. I get a full week's worth of TVGOS for KATU,KGW,&
KPTV. I seem to get only psip data (about a days worth) for KOIN & OPB. I have used my real zip 97006 and the zip for KOIN 97201.

Has anyone using the digital TVGOS gotten the full length guide for KOIN & OPB?
If so, what zip code are you using?

The analog TVGOS always worked well for a full weeks guide on my 3410a.

tia
Lew

looks like katu got alot of calls about the 2.2 epg info because all of it is gone just saying DTV PROGRAM

epg info is back

I recently acquired a pal-dvr. It seems to be working fairly well but with a little strangeness relating to the TVGOS. I get a full week's worth of TVGOS for KATU,KGW,&
KPTV. I seem to get only psip data (about a days worth) for KOIN & OPB. I have used my real zip 97006 and the zip for KOIN 97201.

Same here. I hope the situation improves after the analog shutoff.

I will be interested in hearing how the pal-dvr works out.

Hi billmcf-

I'm glad to hear I'm not alone. With such an odd problem it's probably not the box but KOIN & TVGOS.

"looks like katu got alot of calls about the 2.2 epg info because all of it is gone just saying DTV PROGRAM"

Possible, but I don't think so. I think the engineers know about it but I don't think they thought it was a big prob. They were there late last night and will be there tonight for the switch and tweak and tuneup/check before the 5AM launch. Maybe they were in earlier and tackled that with some of the other "nitpicks". It is primarily automated with some local mods and they need to make sure all the equipment works correctly together. So, the local MC guys are watching three channels now. well, 4 for a few more weeks, anyway.

At 11:57PM this tv is now on 2.2

i dont know if KOAC has transitioned already or if i manged to stumble accross them testing there new upcoming digital signal on ch7 right now should be 39
looks like it was testing as the digital signal is now back on 39 and the analog is back on 7

http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_020209_dtv_conversion_update.127b3a69.html

The article says KGW has applied for early termination, and that when the Oregon Association of Broadcasters took a poll last week, all but one station was planning on early shutoff. They didn't say which one was the holdout.

KGW could use a little help with their proofreading and/or grammar:

"This will require all owners of DTV sets or converter boxes that use over-the-air antennas to “re-scan” there TV’s when they first turn on there sets on February 18th."

KGW could use a little help with their proofreading and/or grammar:

"This will require all owners of DTV sets or converter boxes that use over-the-air antennas to “re-scan” there TV’s when they first turn on there sets on February 18th."

That's what happens when Engineering writes the press releases instead of Promotions....

(I keeeed, I keeed. We love you guys with the soldering irons!)

It is the law to terminate on Feb17th!

Thank goodness OPB will have a phone bank for the switch.


http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_020209_dtv_conversion_update.127b3a69.html

The article says KGW has applied for early termination, and that when the Oregon Association of Broadcasters took a poll last week, all but one station was planning on early shutoff. They didn't say which one was the holdout.

Feb 17 is the current law but noting the uncertainty of the Feb 17 date, and/or the pending legislation, 6 stations have filed Notification of Suspension of Operations (KOIN, KOPB, KRCW) or Early Termination STAs (KPTV, KPDX). KGW filed both NSO and STA, including a statement about no interference due to KOAC's Early Termination on Ch 7. The bases are covered. We hope.

I suppose that's 7 stations, if we count KPXG, already a done deal.

I have the very basic Comcast and connect my Samsung QAM HDTV directly to the wall. Last night I lost KATU 2-1 and KOIN 6-1. Anybody else have the same problem?

Over here in the far east Vancouver/Camas area (about 17~ miles from towers) I tweaked my Winegard 1080 attic antenna direction a bit this weekend and though signal strenght is quite low - only high 40's, I now can/could get the 16's w/o pixeling/clipping...however, since late weekend the pic has deteriorated and my signal meter only shows low-mid 40's w/ "uncorrected errors" numbering in the thousands (?) Anybody got intel on the signal for these channles??

also, noticed between the clips/pixels 16-3 now has something being broadcast now vs just a test screen...

Info on when KOXI-Ca (Ch 20) moves their transmitter to the PDX antenna farm?? I was told "sometime in '09" by the station via e-mail and noticed they have an application for digital transmission on Ch 28...Analog Ch 20 reception is really poor now as I think they broadcast from elsewhere (and I pick up the signal from back of the antenna ??)

Lastly, getting "blank" pic screen but, tuner shows 6.2 and 32.2, any word on when these may sprout new networks??

thanx!

I am going to wait until the digital switch is done before I do any more work on my antenna. Then I'm going to buy a new antenna and add at least 5' of height and guide wires to the mast pole.

The pisser is that I bought a Channel Master 4224 (4 bay UHF) antenna last year which I intended to use before I found out that some stations were going to use VHF for their digital transmissions after the switch.

I didn't put the 4 bay antenna up because I needed to receive TVGOS data from PBS channel 10 analog. The TVGOS data is now going to be transmitted by CBS 6.1 instead of PBS 10. I haven't checked my devices to see if the host channel has already switched.

I torn between buying a Channel Master 4228HD (8 bay antenna) that supposedly will receive down to channel 7 VHF vs buying a 5 element VHF antenna and combining that with the 4 bay. Any suggestions?

I am in Oak Grove off SE Rothe and McLoughlin (south of Milwaukie) near Rex Putnum HS.

Data for CM4228
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html

Newest version CM4228HD
http://www.channelmasterintl.com/terr/EXTREMEtenna.html

For last couple of weeks, I've had trouble holding a picture from 6-1. My other stations seem fine. 32-1 is having a occasional problems. I first noticed it druing the wind storms, but thought it would go away when winds died down. But it's remained bad.


I checked signal strength today, and see that 6-1 is running about 60-66 on my TV, 32-1 74-80.

Has KOIN done something to reduce their power output?

Thanks,
Rick
I lost 6.1 and 2.1 during the big wind last month. After the storm, I was getting results like you have been seeing. I finally went up on the roof and found that my antenna had rotated about 10 degrees. I reaimed it and put screws through the mast sections to prevent spinning at the joints. Now, I am getting everything but 49.1 which I presume is still transmitting at low power.

I need to add some guide wires though because I still have a tilt from vertical which can't be a good thing.

I will be interested in hearing how the pal-dvr works out.

I am watching DTVPal DVR's progress. There is a forum devoted to it:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1099071.

I have a couple of Sony DHG-HDD250s and a DHG-HDD500. They are great DVRs that record to hard drive in HD but Sony quit making them a few years ago. I suspect that they will quit servicing them at some point and when they die they will be dead forever.

The two Sonys that I have hooked up are receiving full TVGOS listings for all channels except THIS which is still showing up as "no listing". There was a big concern on the AVS Sony DHG-HDD250/500 forum that they would not be able to receive TVGOS when the host channel transition was made from PBS 10 analog to CBS 6.1 digital. Fortunately, this seems to have not materialized as a problem.

Wow, audioxcel, I'm surprised if your CM 4 bay can't handle 8/10/12. My homemade coathanger is a 4 bay UHF, and indoors it handles 7+ easily. With extra work, I could get a lock on CH 4 when ION was there. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad it's moved on to CH 22, I had made a dipole from old antenna wire, tuned for CH 4, and was thinking after transition I could shorten it up for 8/10/12, but I don't need it at all. You're closer to towers and LOS, I'm 14+ miles and 1 edge, so unless you're in a dead spot, I would think you could get Ch 8+ without even sticking that antenna on the roof. Have you tried it indoors just to see what it gets?

If it's CBS you are most concerned about, 6.1 stays where it is, transmitting on UHF 40.

...though to the post above ref CH 16.1,2.3? and etc.,?? and, "yes" 49.1 is still just above 50%~ power, thinkin it won't be fixed till after the 2/17 Hoopla is done (?) That new channel master antenna (4228HD) looks somewhat similar, though it's probably larger / more elements, than my new Weingard model 1080 that I chose due to size constraints, not combining two antennas and ability to (re)orienting the antenna in my attic, ....and not mounting outside due to grounding complications, the wind we have over here, ice on the elements, etc., though I think something that "pulls" a bit better on the weaker stations with a wider sight (refering specifically to ch's: 16,1,2,3, 20, 26, ...) would be desired..:confused:

thatgirl, I got 2.x and 6.1 last night without problems. Was it short lived?

No I haven't, TR. It never occurred to me that it might pull in VHF high since it is not a VHF antenna. Maybe I will try it on a short length of coax to see what it does. I am really only concerned with the VHF high channels. I'm sure it would work better than my current roof top VHF / UHF antenna for the UHF channels.

I lost 6.1 and 2.1 during the big wind last month. After the storm, I was getting results like you have been seeing. I finally went up on the roof and found that my antenna had rotated about 10 degrees. I reaimed it and put screws through the mast sections to prevent spinning at the joints. Now I am getting everything but 49.1 which I presume is still transmitting at low power.

I need to add some guide wires though because I still have a tilt from vertical which can't be a good thing.

I just got back down from the roof myself. I couldn't visibly see that it had moved, but as soon as I touched the mast, my wife said the signal jumped. So I loosened the rings and rotated it slightly in the direction I assumed was needed (don't have a compass) - signal didn't improve, so I rotated it other direction, and voila, signal during day on KOIN running up 68-72 range and KGW above 90.

So it doesn't take much of a change on antenna to make difference.

While up there, I went ahead and retaped the cable in a few places

Thanks!
Rick

No I haven't, TR. It never occurred to me that it might pull in VHF high since it is not a VHF antenna. Maybe I will try it on a short length of coax to see what it does. I am really only concerned with the VHF high channels. I'm sure it would work better than my current roof top VHF / UHF antenna for the UHF channels.

After people started testing paperclip antennas, I've been willing to give more things a try. From EV's quote of the hdtvprimer link, it looks like the 4 bay improves rapidly at the hi VHF range. My best analog is 8-12, so I expect the 4 bay will do even better when KGW/KOPB/FOX move back home.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14047885#post14047885

I did find odd things about indoor antenna adjustment, so if you have a room not facing the tower, try the middle of the room, too; that has turned out to be my best digital reception in rooms away from the tower.

After people started testing paperclip antennas, I've been willing to give more things a try. From EV's quote of the hdtvprimer link, it looks like the 4 bay improves rapidly at the hi VHF range. My best analog is 8-12, so I expect the 4 bay will do even better when KGW/KOPB/FOX move back home.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14047885#post14047885

I did find odd things about indoor antenna adjustment, so if you have a room not facing the tower, try the middle of the room, too; that has turned out to be my best digital reception in rooms away from the tower.

Well, I unpacked the CM 4224, straightened out the bent reflector grid, and hooked it up to my TV using 50' of coax (about the same length as would be used to mount it on the roof top). No luck. : (

Indoors, I got a "no signal" message on all digital channels and really bad reception with lots of diagonal interferrence lines on 6, 8 and 10 analog. I took it outside (ground level) and got even worse analog (just a dark picture, very little color with lots of snow) and still no digital channels. I haven't hauled it up to the roof yet. That will have to wait until my wife is home.

Aw, that was a disappointment, Audioxcel!! Inside the house I use a much shorter coax. Upstairs two bedrooms share a coathanger, and the room that's farther away loses some signal, it's probably a 20' run, but since the antenna faces the towers, the distant room gets more channels than it would with the antenna in its own room. I used a 30' section in the garage attic, but that length didn't work well inside the TV room. Portland has lots of quirky reception areas. The Canby guy was setting up his customers who needed help (no charge) and was having great success with a $20 RS 'delta' antenna (the ones that look like a star trek communicator badge). Canby is about 18 miles away, but LOS. Maybe I just got lucky with my coathangers.

Aw, that was a disappointment, Audioxcel!! Inside the house I use a much shorter coax. Upstairs two bedrooms share a coathanger, and the room that's farther away loses some signal, it's probably a 20' run, but since the antenna faces the towers, the distant room gets more channels than it would with the antenna in its own room. I used a 30' section in the garage attic, but that length didn't work well inside the TV room. Portland has lots of quirky reception areas. The Canby guy was setting up his customers who needed help (no charge) and was having great success with a $20 RS 'delta' antenna (the ones that look like a star trek communicator badge). Canby is about 18 miles away, but LOS. Maybe I just got lucky with my coathangers.

I'm not giving up yet on the CM 4224. Hell, it's paid for. It never occurred to me to try it for VHF. It should pull UHF fine from the roof since it is a better antenna than the one I have up there now. Who knows? Maybe I'll get lucky and it will pull in VHF high too; it seems to at least be capable. All that remains to be seen is if it can put out good VHF reception.

http://www.katu.com/news/39109017.html

So now we've heard from everyone except KNMT (religious channel).

PORTLAND, Ore. - Congress is giving consumers four more months to prepare for the upcoming transition from analog to digital television broadcasting but that does not mean that all television stations will wait until then to turn off their analog signals....

However, broadcasters who have already filed paperwork with the FCC have the option to still make the switch on Feb. 17. This is something that KATU, along with another television station in the Portland area, is intending to do.

I presume KATU meant to say "other TV stations" rather than "another."

I wonder what sort of aspect they'll be broadcasting after the changeover. Right now they're sending the 4:3 picture on the analog channels and 16:9 on the digital channels. Is the picture going to be with top and bottom bars on older sets? Do the converter boxes allow you to set the picture to fill a 4:3 aspect TV? I noticed that they've moved the network logo in on the 16:9 picture so that it isn't cut off if the picture is cropped on the sides to 4:3.
I don't have any converter boxes since I have DirecTV.

The cheapie converter box I have allows you to watch letterboxed or centercut 4x3. There's another option but I can't remember what it is. I'm not near the unit.

There are 3-4 aspect ratio options on most CECBs. Zenith has a "set by program" one that I like. Letterbox is good on a big tv, "full" stretches the picture vertically, so you don't lose the sides but it makes people look fun-house tall, and I think they all have a 4x3 version although they don't all call it the same thing. One has a zoom1, leaving a bit of black border top and bottom. Zenith remembers settings for individual channels, which is nice if you have stations that choose well or poorly.

http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_020209_dtv_conversion_update.127b3a69.html

The article says KGW has applied for early termination, and that when the Oregon Association of Broadcasters took a poll last week, all but one station was planning on early shutoff. They didn't say which one was the holdout.According to a story they did on the news last night, and this article they published yesterday, Feb 4...
KGW management is still discussing their specific transition date

http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_020409_news_dtv_congress_delay.1d3c820b.html

So it looks like we are still in a 'wait and see' holding pattern, at least with KGW.

I was having trouble with KATU in my kitchen on a tv with an APEX converter. It would pixilate or not work at all. The kitchen outlet is on about a 30' RG6 coax from my "distribution" point. There is about a 12" piece of coax jumpering between the outlet and the converter box. Yesterday, I unhooked it from the wall jack and put a 12" jumper wire with alligator clips at each end on the center conductor of the coax jumper and clipped the other end to the blinds to hold it up at a 45 degree angle. KATU 2.1 and 2.2 come in perfectly and lock in. Other channels do not fare as well. 8 and 12 work but the others have problems. But 2 works. Connected to my "system", 2 does not work but all the others do except 49 which shows no signal at my place on anything......east Gresham. My channel master converter box, about 7-10' of coax from the distribution point, shows everything just fine at about 90-100 except 49 which shows no signal. My digital TV is a 2002 Mits which has an early rev level tuner sometimes has problems with some stations, whether it is hooked directly to the antenna or the distribution system through about 30' of coax. A tap near the tv also feeds the converter in my computer room....an additional 30 feet and my bedroom, an additional 20 feet. The zenith converter in my computer room works on all channels (except 49 currently) and the Apex converter in the bedroom appears to work on all channels, except 49, with some occasional pixilation on CH8.

I have an old deep fringe UHF antenna with a Channel Master preamp on the antenna. The antenna is probably 30+ years old. I also have a VHF antenna on a different Mast 20 feet away. That one goes into a VHF preamp at my distribution system where it is combined with the output from the VCR's and satellite receiver, into a distribution amp where it is then combined with the UHF signals and split to the other points. I use RG6 throughout the house. The VHF antenna is a deep fringe VHF that is probably 45 years old that when I lived in Rockwood area, I was picking up the Seattle stations and if I swung it to the south, the Eugene stations....... in 72-73. When I moved to Gresham in 74, I moved the antenna to my current house where it has been since. The UHF, I put up when 49 came on the air. I also have at the top of the 10' UHF mast, an old CH22 antenna that I picked up from Cascade Surplus after CH22-On TV went dead, with a Winegard preamp. I pointed it south and used it for CH32 when they came on. I don't use it now because I don't need it for 22 or 32 since I get them via DTV now.

I use the signal levels on converter boxes for reference only because I don't know what they mean. I can only use it for comparison. It would be nice to have a spectrum analyzer so I could see what is really happening at different points in my system. I think I still need to do some cleanup/tweaking on my system before it is working right for DTV. The wife won't let me keep jumper wires in the kitchen forever.

I am watching DTVPal DVR's progress. There is a forum devoted to it:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1099071.

I've been following it, but it's nice to hear from a local source. My TR40 can't hold all the PSIP info we get here, it keeps dumping some to try to add more. I would think memory would not be a problem with the DVR, but you never know.

earletp, KGW showed up on the FCC filings though, STA request for going silent on analog. Argued that there would be no interference in their move to CH 8, since KOAC (CH7) was moving, too. [ ETA: I think I must have not paid attention, that doesn't sound right, as KOAC will end up on 7. oh well, there will be another chance in the next couple days.]

If they want to sacrifice themselves to the staggered transition scheme the FCC seems to be hatching, I'm fine with that.

> The pisser is that I bought a Channel Master 4224 (4 bay UHF)
> antenna last year which I intended to use before I found out
> that some stations were going to use VHF for their digital
> transmissions after the switch.

Add a YA-1713 or Y10-7-13 for VHF-HI. (I have the YA-1713
and 8, 10, 12 analog are beautiful.)

> really bad reception with lots of diagonal interferrence
> lines on 6, 8 and 10 analog

Hmmm, given the 4224 it is likely that 8, 10, and 12 are weak,
so the AGC is getting cranked up, and the strong stations
are driving the tuner into overload. If you add a good
VHF-HI antenna (YA-1713 or Y10-7-13) and combine with a
UVSJ diplexor, then the stations will be much closer to the
same strength.

TalkingRat, I suspect they are just trying to keep their options open. No station wants to be either the only one to switch to digital nor the only one left on analog after the 17th.

Any delay will have more to do with perceived local competition, than the actual readiness of the stations themselves.

(edited to add) I'd be surprised if each station's preference weren't to switch as soon as possible to rid themselves of the expense of operating both analog and digital transmitters.

We will know intent by Monday, because the FCC isn't letting them change their mind after this next round of filings. .

We expect that stations indicating their intent to terminate their analog service on February 17 will do so. Therefore, as a condition of the waiver granted herein, the Commission will not permit stations to withdraw or modify these notifications except in the event of emergency or disaster necessitating the continued operation of analog service. The analog operations of stations submitting notification of intent to terminate analog service on February 17, 2009 pursuant to this Public Notice will no longer be protected from interference after February 17, 2009.

The stations here can be a bit more flexible in that I don't think they need tower crews or anything like that to transition. 8 and 12 and 49 just have to more rf from one feedline to another to make the switch.

I think you're going to all see them change their mind. KATU announced on their website today they've decided to wait until June 12.

I think far more people will be confused when stations start disappearing from their digital converters in June, or whenever.

Well, if somebody has to stay, I'd rather it be the stations already at their full digital potential. Like KATU, KNMT, and if they have to, KOIN. But they shouldn't need so many, with LPs/translators around.

KPDX and KRCW would benefit from analog shutdown, losing adjacent channel interference that makes reception choppy. FOX, OPB, and KGW are ok for me where they are, but the moves to VHF could improve the reception for many (benefit: reducing frustration with digital). A FOX move gets KPDX a functional digital transmitter.

That's true. The lower VHF's (KOIN and KATU) won't cause people trouble since they're staying in their UHF channels. Once people get their converters, these stations are already set up for them.

Does anyone know where there might be information about plans and schedules for rural low-power repeaters? Is there a mandatory cutoff of the UHF analog broadcasts?

I use OTA television in Hood River. I can't find anyone who knows what the plan is for the tower in Underwood that serves the valley. A non-profit co-op used to own and operate the repeater, but they have turned the operation over to a consortium that seems the have some connection to someone at KATU. I have made email inquiries to KOPB and others, but nobody has any specific answers. "Sometime in the future" is about as clear as anyone is willing to commit.

The analog repeater is unreliable and seems to be on it's last legs. Quite often, one or more of the six stations is off the air. My hope is that digital transmission will be more reliable. My house is 11 miles from the tower with clear line of sight. I also hope that there is enough power to reach me.

Thunderbeast

Meredith announced today none of their full power stations will be shutting off analog on the 17th. That makes KATU and KPTV the first to announce they're not. Expect KGW and KOIN to follow suit. I would imagine Tribune will announce the same.

Looks like June for us!

As far as I know, there's no timeline stated for low powers to turn off analog signals. Most broadcasters are probably going to try and pare down the capital costs they incurred for their full power stations before looking at digital LP's. Now if one of them dies, they may convert them to digital, although I don't even know if they can legally at this point. My guess would be they could, but, there's a lot up in the air.

There will be only some repeater stations in rural areas that will continue analog broadcasts from any of the Eugene-area stations after Feb. 17th.

Looks like heavy handed politics made the networks cave. We have to live with mediocre reception so 5% can live with worse reception. I am so sick of analog interference. Really sick of it.

I saw KATU and KGW go with June before I saw the Meredith news. I think KOIN and OPB may stick with February 17. I wish the FCC would let OPB move to CH 10, saving energy costs and improving their coverage. For the environment, and as a public service. ;-)

In spite what their online search brings up (Feb 17) and their counters still ticking away, OregonLive reported last night that everyone is delaying now.

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/02/portland_tv_stations_backtrack.html

I think I'm getting to the bottom of the reason I haven't been able to receive the OTA digital transmissions of KMTR and its sub-channels in the Eugene area, for the past several months. According to a broadcast engineer at that station, they installed a new PSIP-code generator last year, that uses a new standard, replacing one that added the old standard of codes to their signal. Apparently, the new CEPB boxes and the tuners in most TVs and DVRs, can recognize both the old and new codes, but the WMC programming can only function with the old version. The other local stations must all be using the old standard, as I can receive them with WMC. My CEPB boxes receive all local OTA digital channels.

I downloaded the $30. Easy HDTV DVR software program recently and using the same tuner card in my computer, it can receive the KMTR channels. So the fault must be with WMC and not with the tuner card. If the other stations shift to the new code standard, WMC would probably lose the ability to tune them, as well, unless Microsoft provides an update to cover that. Maybe my addition of the Easy HDTV DVR, is the only update I'll be getting.

Then, there's the problem of the Zap-2-it program guide sending the wrong physical channel number for KEZI. They say it's #14, when actually, they're using #44. Next week, they'll shift to #9 and KVAL will change to #13 from #25, for digital signals. According to many people on these forums, Zap-2-it doesn't respond to requests to correct mistakes in the physical channel numbers it embeds in a WMC computer's .xml files, under atscchannels. I got the instructions here from The Near's webpage, about how to open the hidden files and then delete the line in atscchannels, that had the incorrect channel number. After doing that, it was possible to go to the Settings page in WMC and the Add Missing Channels page and enter the deleted station, with the correct physical channel number. This established a new user-generated file, called atscprefs, that overrides the file from the guide service and keeps the tuner on the right channel. The next week, after I made this change, Zap-2-it re-sent the wrong #14 physical channel number to atscchannels, but my own atscprefs file was dominant.

Next week, when some stations change their physical transmitting channels, the WMC computers may lose stations all around the country, unless Zap-2-it gets on the ball and sends out the new channel numbers.

Unfortunately, there seems to have been a change in the ability to edit the .xml files. I no longer get a pop-up with an edit option, when I right-click on atscchannels. Maybe someone else can describe how this is now accomplished? For Vista, the sequence to get to this file was: On Startup Page, go to Computer/Organize Folders/Search Options/View and then check the box to allow Hidden Files to be displayed. Then go to Drive C/ProgramData/Microsoft/eHome/EPG/prefs, then right-click on atscchannels. The list of channels is displayed, then click Edit and put the cursor at the end of the incorrect line and delete it entirely. Then click Save. You can't re-enter or correct the channel information while you're in that file, but must come back to the surface and do it on the WMC Add Missing Channels page. The first step to initiate this series of moves is different for Windows XP. The Near's webpage is no longer active, but maybe they have a new page somewhere and could be asked about the no-longer available edit function for the .xml files. I couldn't find anything for them on Search.

If Zap-2-it does send out all the correct new physical channel numbers, the atscprefs file I established will block them from taking effect on the channels I corrected earlier. But, I may be able to delete the entire atscprefs file and solve that problem.

"will no longer be protected from interference"

Yeah, like there is any protection now.

TalkingRat> KPDX and KRCW would benefit from analog shutdown, losing
TalkingRat> adjacent channel interference

KPDX 48 is my most reliable digital station, even at the current
lower power. It usually comes in with zero FEC failures,
meaning I got a 100% perfect copy of the bits they transmitted.
Moving it to 30 will make it *less* reliable. There is something
going on (off and on) with 27,30,33 that I haven't been able to
track down. Interference is the only thing that makes sense, but
I don't know from what. Given that 48 works so well next to 49
I can't blame 32 for problems with 33, expecially when they come
and go.

Thunderbeast> My hope is that digital transmission will be more reliable.

Sorry, ATSC/8VSB is nowhere near as reliable as NTSC. Prople are
going to be sorry when they *need* info and ATSC/8VSB drops the ball.
This is the only case I can think of where a digital system is worse
than the analog system it replaced.

TalkingRat> I am so sick of analog interference. Really sick of it.

Do you mean NTSC interferring with ATSC? What makes you think NTSC
is the source of the problem? What have you done to improve your signal?

If you think it's bad now, just wait until all the kiddies get their
hands on white space devices.

As I said before, between Portland and Salem/Corvallis, I get a signal on virtually every analog channel. In another 4 months, I'll simply observe if things improve. I've described before what 32 and 49 look like, and I've seen illustrations online identified as examples of adjacent channel interference, looking exactly like mine. Everything but KORS registers 100% signal, but it's nearly always the same two stations that can't hold a signal. The one thing they have in common is that the digital station is right next door to their own analog. Maybe there are certain similarities in the same program being broadcast that makes them more sensitive to their own counterparts. With those two channels I also have seasonal problems, late afternoon at equinox -- and the cable company's signal had the same problem. I'm not LOS for the Portland stations, and have over a dozen ghosts repeating on some analog stations, so multipath has a strong effect as well.

ETA: Or another possibility, the damaged digital transmitter is messing with the CH 49 signal.

> I've seen illustrations online identified as examples of
> adjacent channel interference, looking exactly like mine

So channel 48 is interfering with 49? I haven't seen examples
of ATSC interferring with NTSC, do you have a URL? Or a screen shot?

> The one thing they have in common is that the digital station
> is right next door to their own analog.

I'm surprised that I get 48 so well with a strong 49 next door.
ATSC/8VSB is screwy. The stations I would expect to be the best
are the worst and the ones I'd expect to be the worst come in
best.

> With those two channels I also have seasonal problems, late
> afternoon at equinox -- and the cable company's signal had the
> same problem.

That's interesting. You might ask about that on the main
antenna thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623

> I'm not LOS for the Portland stations, and have
> over a dozen ghosts repeating on some analog stations, so
> multipath has a strong effect as well.

Recent demodulator chips are supposed to do pretty well against
static multipath (mountains, buildings, watertowers, ...)
unless it is really bad, like in a large city surrounded by
skyscrapers. Dynamic multipath (planes, helicopters, trucks, ...)
is MUCH more problematic. IIRC Scowl had some trouble from
Tri-Met busses. Of course if your multipath is outside the
range your chip handles you are out of luck.

> My homemade coathanger is a 4 bay UHF

Have you tried something more directional? Assuming this is the usual
vertical stack, it does nothing to reduce multipath from a horizontal
direction. A more directional antenna should help both NTSC and ATSC.

> I'm 14+ miles and 1 edge

How high would you need for LOS?

> I did find odd things about indoor antenna adjustment

Do you have foil backed insulation or other problematic materials?
Could the antenna go up in the attic?

Konrad,

I get signals on 47/48/49/50. The photos, I looked for them again a few weeks ago, and no luck. I don't see the programming from adjacent channels, just fat bands and wavy pictures and distorted colors. The ATSC/NTSC interference was a text topic I saw when I was exploring possibilities last Spring. I didn't bookmark it, I have so many I stopped long ago for things I don't expect to refer back to often. Someone on Satguys said the FCC was in discussions about the possible interaction of the same station's programming in ATSC/NTSC on adjacent channels.

I have 2 coathanger versions, reflected and unreflected, and a Terk HDTVa. I've tried them out in various rooms. Unreflected is not as good in any room. In the family room, away from towers, only the Terk amplified got 49.1, that was the main difference between them. It needed to be angled away from the towers. Now that it's in the attic, I don't have flexibility to adjust but it gets better Portland tower stuff. Microwave and low aircraft don't bother the picture now. No foil backed insulation problems there.

Most stations require 42-70' for LOS, although there are a couple at 93'. TVFool is no longer showing that on their charts. This is from July.

CH - LOS
47 - not sure, I'm not getting the 47 that TVFool shows.
48- 58'
49 - 63'
50 - LOS


32 - LOS
5 93'
33 - 42'
I get 5 better than 32.


ETA: Sure there are fixes, but I still see this as a temporary annoyance, one that may go away on its own in 4+ months.

> I have 2 coathanger versions, reflected and unreflected,

If you added a reflector would they be identical? Then you
could do a horizontal stack, making an 8-bay. Adjust the
spacing for minimum ghosts. You could even try a 16-bay,
(with series/parallel connection) and so on, until you run out
of space.

If that doesn't work, I'd try a XG-91.

> CH - LOS
> 47 - not sure, I'm not getting the 47 that TVFool shows.
> 48- 58'
> 49 - 63'
> 50 - LOS

The chan 50 is analog? That could be the source of interference.

> 32 - LOS
> 5 93'
> 33 - 42'
> I get 5 better than 32.

5 is low power, 2.7 KW, next to 6 at 100 KW. (numbers might be out of date?)
I would expect interference to show up on 5 before 49 (2950 KW). Chan 50
would have to be 109259 KW (modulo differences due to distance and LOS)
to have the same power ratio.

Is anyone else having audio issues with KOIN again? I don't seem to have any center channel audio. I am getting a Dolby Digital signal which only seems to have L+R stereo, for both Letterman last night and shows on today. Are they back to having strange audio problems again?

This after last week's KATU (well, maybe it was ABC) audio problems with LOST - the audio was just awful!!!

-Dan

> Is anyone else having audio issues with KOIN again?

I think they still have nasty pops coming out of commercials
sometimes.

Their video has problems as well. The mpeg stream they send out is often broken.
Example:

http://g.imagehost.org/0284/Big_Bang_Theory_64_perfect_reception.png

Yes, that is what they sent out, it is not a reception problem.

At least we're no longer getting that nasty crackly audio during the Craig Ferguson show. In exchange, I'll gladly put up with those brief bursts of noise at the end of each commercial break!

I don't remember seeing breakups on KOIN, [ETA: saw one tonight, and heard a few pops, too.] but the left speaker is very weak. I've been noticing speaker changes when I channel surf, and had my receiver on Hall for a program that wasn't coming through well, so I didn't notice the speaker problem until I went back to Dolby setting.

Konrad, I built one antenna like YouTube, wood too thin to let me easily put a reflector on it. Part of me isn't keen on stealing antennas from the other TVs. But I suppose it wouldn't take too long to try it out. Is there a diagram you can point me to that shows how two are hooked up?

> Konrad, I built one antenna like YouTube, wood too thin to
> let me easily put a reflector on it. Part of me isn't keen
> on stealing antennas from the other TVs. But I suppose it
> wouldn't take too long to try it out. Is there a diagram
> you can point me to that shows how two are hooked up?

For best results you want the 2 4-bays to be identical.
What are you using for a reflector? For indoors you can
use sheet aluminum sold as roof flashing. Aluminum foil
is better than nothing, but thinner metal is less effective
at lower frequencies. A solid reflector would catch a
lot of wind outdoors, so the commercial models use rods
or a mesh screen. Even so the older CM 4228 (with mesh) is
said to catch a lot of wind. IIRC the newer one uses rods.

I have the PR-8800 8-bay which is 2 4-bays wired in parallel
(before the balun) Get the phasing right or they will cancel
and the output will be almost nothing. If in doubt just try
it both ways. 4-bays are wired series-parallel to maintain
a reasonable impedance. If wired only in parallel the
impedance would drop lower and lower as you go from a single
dipole to a 2-bay to 4-bay to 8-bay to 16-bay ...

If you play with the spacing between the 2 4-bays, you should
be able to cancel at least one of the ghosts.

I started receiving KOXI-CA (ch 20 OTA) simulcast on KORS 16.3 (KORS digital signal) this evening. Seems to be simulcast of sister station KOXI-CA ch 20 (Camas). However, over here in very eastern Vancouver/western Camas, signal strength is only 46-50 and ok when no "uncorrected errors" are detected by my dig TV tuner. Otherwise with errors comes a LOT of clipping!

anyboody else getting 16-.1, .2, .3 with/without problems? America One and KOXI-CA (ch 20 Camas) is a decent station/network but, reception has been impossible w/ LOT of snow. The digital signal on 16.3 seems to be a nice solution IF the broadcast can be cleaned up of errors.

I reoriented (again) my Weingard 1080p attic antenna to max the signal of 16-1, .2, .3 but the signal is still marginal (typical 44-49) though it doesn't clip when the station is error free - even w/ a less than "50 pound" signal, but, that seems to be only a few hours a day - at best.

I have e-mailed Watchtv for info/answers...wondering if anyone else is receiving and what quaility of reception of the new digital channel 16's.

And, "yes", I get teh occasional (or more than) "snap, crackle and POP" on KOIN 6-1 too...

Wonder if 16.3 carrying KOXI is permanent???

KORS is still settling into 16.x, they have some work to do on picture and sound. It's certainly better than it was in October. I assume KOXI is not permanent, since they have a construction permit for CH 28.

nice gentleman from watch tv called me reference my e-mail of KORS 16's signal..they are "on air " but will be getting new/better antenna and raising it from about 400ft to 500ft+ level on tower this spring-ish, that shold help reception...he personally lives around St Helens area and picks up the signal well w/ line of sight reception of the broadcast towers himself (30+ miles) but, my 16 1/2 miles seems difficult. I'm having my strength meter report "uncorrected errors" but apparently they are reception related as signal is only 40-ish this am but, was 47-48 last pm, ...he is reporting signal is "as it will be" till the new antenna / height I mentioned is finished...KOXI-CA (Ch 20 analog) will also STAY on 16.3 as a digital sub and a 16.4 sub channel IS also coming too though will be some kind of "shopping" network. Koxi btw will ALSO have a digital channel (28?) of it's own soon too IAW him. And, there'll be yet another digital station - though we didn't discuss programming, on (possibly) channel 41.1 though he wasn't sure, sometime late spring-summer timeframe. His estimation was mid-summer after the digital switch all should be complete, and, most LP stations will be gradually shut down to save $$ and maintenance costs as the digital signals seem to be workin' well once antenna issues on the transmit end are fixed. So that's the word from mgt at Watchtv (for now), he promised to stay in touch and let me know when other antenna/broadcast changes take effect...hope so! Guess I need to see if moving/reorienting/changing antenn from weingard 1080 to something a bit better will help (?)...

KOIN online statement today:

The analog signal carrying KOIN channel 6 is out due to work being done on the signal towers. We expect service to be restored by the end of the day. You should only experience a broadcast disruption if you have an analog television; cable and digital T.V. remains normal.

> anyboody else getting 16-.1, .2, .3 with/without problems?

I scheduled a 60 minute test recording 2am-3am.
Signal strength = 85% Signal quality = 75
Forward error correction did its thing, 100% perfect reception

Can't actually watch it since ffmpeg turns up its nose at mono.
Am I missing anything interesting?

> Weingard 1080p attic antenna to max the signal of 16-1, .2, .3

Do you know what the gain of the WG 1080p is at chan 16?
If you believe the computer simulated net gain chart on
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
my pr8800 has about 13dBi at chan 16. In hindsight I think
I might have been better off getting the XG91.

> reception has been impossible w/ LOT of snow

Analog channel with snow = signal to noise problem. You could try
an antenna with more gain at channels 16-20. You could try a preamp
(Weingard or Channel Master, not radio shack) but it is likely to
overload (best bet is the Winegard hdp-269). If it overloads, try
a bandpass filter ahead of the amp. A bandpass filter might help
even without an amp depending on your tuner.

If you are splitting the signal, you could try bypassing the splitter.

no splitter but a straight and, long run (60- 75ft~) of Rg-6 direct from antenna to one TV - a 47" Toshiba Regza 120hz DTV, ...antenna is in attic at about 16ft indoor elevation but, no trees/buildings across the meadows to interfere though we get some wind! Antenna looks "through" two roofs on my house though, that may interfere a bit (?)...Not sure of "gain" on Weingard 1080 antenna at ch 16-see below specs (suspect it's better for high VHF than UHF ?? nor do I know what is would "translate" too in signal) but, it was purchased from Solid Signal after being recommended by Weingard via e-mailconversation as choice #2 if I didn't want their indoor antenna that was first suggested. (I didn't knowing this area has some quirks for reception). I'm sure specs are on the website, I've (again) tried to tweak and retweak antenna w/in 1-2' for best reception of ch 16's which is my weakest station by far, still 16's are clipping this am though-signal about 40-42, was "ok" last pm w/ 46-48 signal on meter(?)...pretty sure any "booster" might cause problems/overload as all other channels (exception of KPDX broadcating w/ 1/2~ power) are signal strength of high 80's to low 90's...KOXI has some good (old) movies and different sports, so gettin 16.3 to watch in digital, (as the analog signal on channel 20 doesn't come from the Portland antenna farm, so my antenna isn't optimized for Ch 20 reception) would be ideal...and music on 16.2 is occasionally "ok" too :)

Weingd 1080 antenna specs below:

Gain
CH 7
CH 9
CH 11
CH 13
CH 14
CH 32
CH 44
CH 56
CH 69

db over reference dipole
-11
-8
-1
0.0
6.0
7.5
10.7
7.5
7.5

beamwidth at half power points (°)
72
65
39
0
0
80
52
64
73

front-to-back ratio
0
0
0
0
-2
-6
-7
-8
-8
• Unit dimensions 34.5”W x 18.25H”



Suggestions and are welcomed...

thanx

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HD-1080

A 2-bay UHF antenna for $ 31.99. Solid Signal says VHF,
but rabbit ears have a lot more gain than this thing has
for VHF.

Do you have room in your attic for a better antenna?
A higher gain antenna is a much better upgrade than adding
an amp to a low gain antenna.

Looks like they renamed the PR-8800 the HD-8800 and raised
the price a bit. $ 44.99 (was $38.99 a couple years ago)
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HD-8800

The XG-91 is $ 68.99 and has a good reputation.
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=TD-91XG

You might also see what sort of yagi with corner reflector
Weingard and Channel Master have these days. Something
similar to the XG-91.

Basically figure out what will fit in your attic and
pick one with the highest gain for the channels you care
about the most. When comparing gain numbers, remember
that dBd = dBi - 2.15 dB. Favor the higher frequencies
a bit because losses are higher at higher freqs. My
8800 is a bit weak at the higher freqs. KATU suffers
if I split it too many ways.

Then add either YA-1713 or Y10-7-13 for VHF-HI.

Very good reply. I think the first different antenna you mentioned (8800) may fit in existing location, double teh length and another foot of width, hmmm (as long as it is BOTH UHF AND VHF HI antenna) ...

or, I could put in different part of attic but, will have to add 10-20' at most of RG6 cable, (though I'd only "look through" one roof vice two if antenna wwas moved in attic)...so would a barrel connector adding more cable be damaging?

Thought the 1080 was decent for the price and WAS happy till channel 16's showed up! (I can also get ch 7 outa Corvalis and R26GJ from Salem area-among others too w/ slight reorienting 1080, so it does work ok, just the weak power 16's are tough even w/ antenna pointing right at them)

Perhaps I'll measure but, "wait" till their (KORS and KOXI) has the new transmit antennas up and the digital switchover is done (?) before comitting more $$ to another antenna, ...though I'm sure the Weingard 1080 could be sold on Craigs list easily enough-It does work quite well on all other channels especially for the size! And I managed several Radio Shack stores in the Nor East years ago and did a lot of antenna work/sales w/ long distance reception, inclding off the Maine coast to Boston stations! The ol' VU-190's 210's were pretty good w/ a rotator and booster. Though BIG

Again, thanx, more inputs are appreciated...

> (8800) may fit in existing location, (as long as it is
> BOTH UHF AND VHF HI antenna)

The 8800 is intended as a UHF antenna. It picks up VHF-HI.
Sounds like you are currently using the HD-1080 for VHF-HI,
I would expect the 8800 to be better. I have the YA-1713 which
is designed for VHF-HI. If your attic has trusses, a yagi
style antenna might not fit?

> will have to add 10-20' at most of RG6 cable

Slightly more loss, mainly at higher frequencies. A better
antenna and/or better location will more than make up for this.

> would a barrel connector adding more cable be damaging

Very slightly, not enough to worry about. I have probably
65-70 feet of RG6 quad shield, barrel connectors, filters,
and splitters.

Don't obsess over minor things like a few more feet of coax
or a barrel connector. Get the highest gain antennas that
fit and you are most of the way there. I have to filter out
interference (e.g. FM) and you might too.

Hey all,

I'm trying to get my parents going with OTA HD and I'm looking for some advice... They live out in Yamhill, antennaWeb.org says about 24 miles from the Portland stations they're wanting to get (2.1, 6.1, 8.1, 10.1, 12.1, 32.1 & 49.1). For Christmas I got them an Antennas Direct DB4 and put it up (apparently it is not nearly strong enough). The antenna is on a pole outside the house about 10 feet up from their single story roof. I ran a new RG-6 cable about 50 feet to a four way splitter. Two of those outputs go 1 foot into an HDHomeRun which detects the OPB stations only. Another output goes about 10 feet to a Samsung HDTV which can tune the OPB stations well and also 12.1, 49.1 (very weak) and occasionally 2.1. The last output goes another 40 feet to a converter box (which also only gets the OPB stations). This last output is the least important. I tried adding a preamp (PA-18 from amazon), but that did not seem to help at all...

They would like to get a larger antenna for the digital channels (UHF and HI-VHF) that they know will work. I was currently looking at the Winegard HD 8200U or the 91XG. Does anyone have any good recommendations? If people suggest the 91XG, I believe that it's a UHF only, so what HI-VHF antenna should be coupled with it? Seriously thanks for any help, I've spent hours and days over weeks reading and researching trying to figure this out. I'm trying to get them not to have to resort to Dish...

As of "now" my Tv tuner has ALL digital channels on UHF w/ KORS ch's 16's the lowest numerically on UHF band..AFTER DTV switchover is final (hopefully-someday) are ANY local stations supposed to return to VHF?? Any above channel 49?? thanx...

Wanted to research some antenna upgrades and clicking on an above posters links;

if channels are ALL between 16-49 the Weingard 8800 appears the "best" for providing gain on low power stations on UHF, especially the lower UHF channels (like Digital ch 16)...

...and the `W1080 I have now has no problems now w/ 85+ signal strength except KPTV-Fox 12.1 about an 80~), KPDX-MNT 49.1 (operating at lower power but giving me high 50's w/o clipping) and the troublesome KORS 16's 1-4, (only low-mid 40's pound signal w/ a lot of clipping on some days),...

looks like I may need more "gain" ability for KORS 16's, (and maybe any other new UHF stations that appear) and KPDX as the only reason(s) to upgrade and, I just don't have room for an antenna w/ "a boom", ...

...the W8800 being just bigger than my W1080... as long as the W8800 equals the W1080 I have now for VHF HI...(???)

Probably in July after all this is done...as Konrad2 has mentioned 3 channels will move back to VHF HI and other UHF channels will move around a bit too but, stayin on te UHF band.

thoughts? thanx Again...

nobleiceman,

> 24 miles from the Portland stations

24 miles shouldn't be a problem, but topography might be.
Can you enter their address into tvfool.com and post the results?

> The antenna is on a pole outside the house about 10 feet up from
> their single story roof.

Experiment with the height on tvfool and see if it is worthwhile
getting the antenna higher.

> four way splitter

A 4-way splitter eats at least 7.4 dB. As an experiment, bypass
the splitter and feed the HDHomeRun directly. Do you get any more
stations that way? The debug numbers include signal strength (ss)
and signal quality (snq), and most importantly, how many packets
failed error correction (te). If their problem is mainly signal
strength, bypassing the splitter should help. If their problem
is mostly multipath or interference it probably will not help.

How do the VHF-HI and UHF analog channels look? Snow? Ghosts?
Interference?

> preamp (PA-18 from amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Uhf-Vhf-Antenna-Pre-Amp/dp/B0018CDGEQ

"gain of 15 db and a 2.8 db max" I'll assume that 2.8 dB is the
noise figure, which is decent. I don't see anything about overload,
which is troubling. An amp in overload is worse than no amp at all.

The usual recommendations for preamps are Weingard, Channel Master,
and Research Communications. The RC unit has an impressive 0.4 dB
noise figure, but is expensive. Weingard are less susceptible to
overload than CM.

Assuming they don't care about VHF-LO, add a HLSJ diplexor ahead
of the preamp to filter out VHF-LO and FM. This reduces the
chance of overloading the amp. Terminate the VHF-LO output.
$1-3 for the HLSJ and $1 or so for a terminator. 2 or 3 HLSJs in
series will filter out even more. You can get better filters
from http://www.tinlee.com but they will likely be over $100.

> Winegard HD 8200U or the 91XG

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HD8200U

The 8200U does VHF-LO, which adds a lot of size and weight.
So it will catch more wind, snow, ice, etc. On the plus
side, it claims more gain at VHF-HI than the YA-1713, which
seems odd.

The charts on http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
show the XG-91 as having more upper UHF gain than the 8200U,
but this is comparing a computer simulation with manufacture's
specs, and that is probably an apples and oranges comparison.
Looks like the 8200U claims more gain for lower UHF.
You might see if yahoo/google can find a better comparison.

> what HI-VHF antenna should be coupled with it?

Add either YA-1713 or Y10-7-13 for VHF-HI.

I've seen a lot of recommendations for the XG-91, but the
numbers for the 8200U look pretty good too.

> AFTER DTV switchover is final (hopefully-someday) are ANY
> local stations supposed to return to VHF?? Any above channel 49??

KGW, KOPB, and KPTV are scheduled to move digital to VHF-HI (8, 10, 12).
Nothing in VHF-LO. I believe KNMT ch 45 will be the highest,
as 48 moves to 30 and 46 moves to 8. Next highest would be
KATU on 43.

Channels 52-69 get stolen and given to other uses, as 70-83 did.

We are receiving the SAP / Descriptive Voice broadcast on channel 10-2, but not on analog channel 10. I have quadruple checked that it's {OFF} on both of those channels. Is anyone else receiving the SAP on 10-2 only?

Months ago I gave up trying to watch KOXI on analog channel 20. I'm most interested in the old movies but what I saw was mostly snow.

I'm glad to find KOXI on 16.3 but the audio sounds like it's echoing through a tunnel, not good.

diddo DigaDo ree KORS/KOXI and 16.3, however, I've only had one day w/o enogh clipping to make it worthwhile to watch, yesterday reception was TERRIBLE, today a bit better but, stilll clipppin. where are you located and what equip. are you using to pick up KORS 16.3?

We are receiving the SAP / Descriptive Voice broadcast on channel 10-2, but not on analog channel 10. I have quadruple checked that it's {OFF} on both of those channels. Is anyone else receiving the SAP on 10-2 only?

SAP 3 has Spanish right now on 10.2, but when I turn on SAP analog I don't get anything different, even though it's the same E/I programming.

Are you saying yours is on and you can't shut it off? I have a SAP setting on the TV and another on the converter box that lets me cycle through the available SAP settings. DT 10.4 has digital music on the SAP 2 setting.

Hi, Diga, good to "see" you here again! I don't have much trouble with KORS cutting out like it used to in October, but they continue to have intermittent audio and video problems, especially with 16.1... which might be considered an improvement.

Does anybody on the south side get KWVT digital 17.1? Titan TV guide shows KSLM on 17.2, although Wiki says it will be White Springs TV there. Unfortunately, 17.1 is RF 16, where KORS is. I haven't been up in the attic to see if I can get it at all, but with KOXI on KORS, I already have the 17.1 content.

diddo DigaDo ree KORS/KOXI and 16.3, however, I've only had one day w/o enogh clipping to make it worthwhile to watch, yesterday reception was TERRIBLE, today a bit better but, stilll clipppin. where are you located and what equip. are you using to pick up KORS 16.3?

I'm located in North Portland at the highest elevation in 97217, LOS and almost five miles from the transmitters in the west hills. The transmitter towers may be seen from the windows in my home office.

The first photo shows my home office stack and just a corner of a switch box. My home office setup includes the following:

1. A Zenith DTT901 CECB connected to a RCA ANT115 (with the UHF circle). The output may be switched between a 13' RCA CRT TV or, through a line input on a Panasonic DMR-EZ17 DVD recorder, to a 19' Dynex LCD HD TV. The TVs do not appear in the photo.

2. A Panasonic DMR-EZ17 DVD recorder (with analog and digital tuners) connected to a RCA ANT111 (with the UHF rectangle). The Panasonic DVD recorder, shown at the top of the stack, has a composite connection to the switch box that feeds a 19' Dynex LCD HD TV, not seen in the photo. At the moment the Panasonic DVD recorder is recording from "this" on channel 2.2.

3. A Magnavox H2160MW9 HDD/DVD recorder (with analog and digital tuners) connected to the pass through TCM RF feed from my Philips DVDR3575H/37 HDD/DVD recorder (with analog and digital tuners) in the next room. That Philips 3575 receives its RF feed from a Comcast DTC700 STB always tuned to TCM. The Magnavox has a direct component connection to the Dynex TV and also a composite connection to the switch box.

4. A Panasonic DMR-EZ28 DVD recorder (with analog and digital tuners) connected to the pass through TCM RF feed from the Magnavox H2160. There is a composite connection to the switch box.

5. A Panasonic DMR-EZ17 DVD recorder (with analog and digital tuners) connected cable-ready to the Comcast coaxial cable. There is a composite connection to the switch box. The RF output feeds the Magnavox 2080 in the next room.

As seen on the table in front of the stack are two Staples #1 Standard Size Antennas, one in its original folded configuration, the other unfolded for use.

In my location all these antennas perform about the same.

In the next room is the Philips 3575, mentioned above, and two Panasonic DMR-EZ17 models, all of which are dedicated to TCM; and a Motorola H2080MW8 HDD/DVD recorder (with analog and digital tuners) connected cable-ready from the pass through RF feed from #5 above. The TV is a Westinghouse 27' LCD HD "ready" model. The image seen on the screen is a recording in progress by the Magnavox 2080 from MoviePlex, cable-ready channel 105.3. In this same room, but not seen in the photo, is a Zenith DTT900 CECB, a Philips SDV2270/17 antenna, a 13' RCA CRT TV and a Panasonic DMR-ES15 DVD recorder. The Panasonic receives a composite feed from the Zenith, the TV receives a RF pass through feed from the Magnavox 2080 and a composite feed from the Panasonic DVD recorder/Zenith CECB.

Does anybody on the south side get KWVT digital 17.1? Titan TV guide shows KSLM on 17.2, although Wiki says it will be White Springs TV there. Unfortunately, 17.1 is RF 16, where KORS is. I haven't been up in the attic to see if I can get it at all, but with KOXI on KORS, I already have the 17.1 content.

TalkingRat,

It would be good to have an OTA version of White Springs TV, the network programmed by Victor Ives of Sinister Cinema fame.

TalkingRat,

It would be good to have an OTA version of White Springs TV, the network programmed by Victor Ives of Sinister Cinema fame.

So we could have some ghoulish ones? They have a videofeed! And FTA satellite. although that sounds more complicated.

http://www.whitesprings.tv/main/videofeed.htm

Or, you can get our channel DIRECT FROM SPACE on FTA (Free To Air) Television. All you need is a digital KU Band Receiver and a small dish. Our signal is available FREE all over the USA, Canada, Mexico and part of Central America. We are licensed by the FCC to provide this service FREE! Don't let anyone tell you differently, our service is 100% legal in every way.

I tried to find 17.1, it's almost 180 degrees off 16.1, and when I caught a signal, it was KORS, backwards. KORS is a more powerful transmitter, I think 17.1 is transmitting at 2kW.

But it's cool that the independents are pooling resources, that means we will have a chance at getting three or four at a time. KORS already has their jewelry on 16.4. :rolleyes:

> if channels are ALL between 16-49 the Weingard 8800 appears
> the "best" for providing gain on low power stations on UHF,
> especially the lower UHF channels (like Digital ch 16)...

Before I got the 8800, I was doing the usual thing of trying
to use a indoor antenna, which of course doesn't work very well
with ATSC/8VSB. The stations I was having the most trouble with
were 27, 30 and 33. On the comparison chart, the 8800 has the
most gain for those channels, meaning it is the most directional,
reducing multipath and interference. So that was a big part of
why I choose the 8800.

The one problem I've had with it is that the 8800's gain drops off
at higher frequencies. Sometimes, (I haven't figured out why)
KOPB comes in especially hot, and overloads the tuner. Easy to
fix, add a $2 attenuator. Problem is that in addition to the
antenna having less gain at higher freqs, the higher frequency
stations get attenuated more by trees, the attic wall, coax, etc.
So adding an attenuator for KOPB drops the signal strength of
KATU, which then has problems.

There are workarounds for this. If you have multiple tuners,
add an attenuator to one and use that for KOPB, use the
unattenuated one for KATU. Use shorter coax if possible.
Look into the coax equalizers that attenuate more at lower
frequencies than higher ones. Rig up a pair of RF switches
to switch the attenuator in/out easily. Get a variable
attenuator with a knob or switches. And so on.

So far, I've only noticed this problem with KOPB, which is
scheduled to move to channel 10 in June. So this problem
might go away. But it could reappear at any time given
an especially hot low frequency station, or a weak higher
frequency station.

I'm not saying the 8800 is a bad antenna, or that you
shouldn't get one. 24 and 49 are beautiful, meaning it does
a good job of eliminating multipath and interference.
Just letting you know about the one drawback I've found.

> other UHF channels will move around a bit too but, stayin on te UHF band.

Which stations are moving around with UHF?

> I've only had one day w/o enogh clipping to make it worthwhile to watch

Clipping? You mean the audio sounds like an amp is clipping?

audio clipping, "no", I mean where the picture "pixels, freezes or goes black" the dreaded "Cliff effect",...

today, Sat AM, 16's were better before 11am, then, they've gone "bad" again, and stayed bad (cliff efffect)...an occasional very minor "clip" (as defined above) few times each 1/2 hour but watchable early am...then, more and more and unwatchable now, drop off's...grrrr

perhaps the WIND causes KORS drop outs??

still, KORS is not coming in well at all, (All other channels are 80's to mid 90's and fine) my ONE TV/tuner shows signal strength of mid 40's for KORS, about 10 pounds lower than KPDX-DT which comes in at mid 50's w/ their 1/2 power transmission they currentlhy are on but, KPDX has no clipping or other problems if antenna is carefully oriented...

probably will shop/get antenna advice and wait till the June switch, by then KORS is supposed to have their new transmission antenna and 100+' higher on the tower transmitter...it's doubtful at just over 16 miles away in west Camas (Lacamas Meadows area) w/o LOS I'd have any overload problems though, don't ya think?

Then if not better, I'll try moving antenna in attic to another spot, or upgrading to W 8800 or another higher gain antenna that'll fit or give up on KORS 16.3...like the option of some old movies, and other shows they show on A1 network....oh well for now

Konrad2,

Thank you very much for your quick reply!!

> 24 miles from the Portland stations

24 miles shouldn't be a problem, but topography might be.
Can you enter their address into tvfool.com and post the results?

Here is the saved image. Is this what you wanted?
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_rIQjKngB7mk/SZcqpKWIIlI/AAAAAAAAF6o/5E0HvU53n7c/s720/Radar-Digital.png


A 4-way splitter eats at least 7.4 dB. As an experiment, bypass
the splitter and feed the HDHomeRun directly. Do you get any more
stations that way? The debug numbers include signal strength (ss)
and signal quality (snq), and most importantly, how many packets
failed error correction (te). If their problem is mainly signal
strength, bypassing the splitter should help. If their problem
is mostly multipath or interference it probably will not help.

How do the VHF-HI and UHF analog channels look? Snow? Ghosts?
Interference?

I'll try this out tomorrow when I'm out at their place and see what difference it makes. I'll also take a look at the analog channels. From what I remember, they mainly just had snow.

What do you think about using a 91-XG with a YA 1713. Then combining the two with a Channel Master CM 7777 preamp? I would also put a HLSJ between the YA-1713 and the CM 7777 to filter out the VHF-LO. I'm not looking for guarantees, just advice :)

> audio clipping, "no", I mean where the picture "pixels,
> freezes or goes black" the dreaded "Cliff effect",...

Ok... I haven't seen anyone refer to that stuff as "clipping" before.

> perhaps the WIND causes KORS drop outs??

If you have trees in the path between the towers and your antenna
it might.

> wait till the June switch

I suggest working on antennas now, while you still have the
analogs available. You can get diagnostic information
looking at an analog picture. Snow = signal to noise
problem, ghosts = multipath, various interference and
overload, ... This provides information about what to
do to improve reception.

This is especially true for 8, 10, and 12, since I assume the
digital transmissions will use the same antennas currently
transmitting analog. If you can get the current analogs
to come in perfectly, the digital might come in well enough
to not drive you totally insane daily.

Diagnostic information for ATSC/8VSB is difficult to come by.

> Here is the saved image. Is this what you wanted?

Yes. Did you try experimenting with height to see if
a tower would be worth the hassle and expense?

> What do you think about using a 91-XG with a YA 1713.

I suspect those are about the best you will find.
Given how weak the signals are I would invest some
time with yahoo/google to make sure. KATU chan 43
is the weakest and highest frequency on your list
of desired stations, so weight performance on chan 43
fairly heavily.

> Channel Master CM 7777 preamp

Many people have good luck with this preamp.
The noise figure is decent and it has a lot of UHF gain.

Given how weak your signals are, you might benefit from
a lower noise figure. Research Communications sells a
preamp with 0.4 dB noise figure, 23 dB UHF gain.
It cost 117.00 UK Pounds including shipping to the US.
Online currency converter says that is US$168.74 so
it is roughly 3x the price of the CM7777.

http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html

Even with the 91-XG and a high gain preamp I suspect you
need an additional amp. You might be able to use the
PA-18 for this. If the PA-18 overloads, try an attenuator
just before its input.

> I would also put a HLSJ between the YA-1713 and the
> CM 7777 to filter out the VHF-LO.

With the amount of amplification you are likely to need,
I would use at least 2 HLSJ in series to block VHF-LO
and FM (especially FM). You might also benefit from
a Pico LPF-230 (low pass filter 230 Mhz). For UHF you
can use the UVSJ as a high pass filter, and Pico makes
a LPF-700. If you want higher quality filters (at higher
prices) see http://www.tinlee.com

You may wish to post the tvfool chart and list of desired
stations on thread 381623 and see what the experts there say.
Opinions on whether the Research Communications preamp
is worthwhile or not in your situation, keeping the amps from
overloading, etc.

Take a look at the post-transition TVFool chart, which shows some improvement for the frequency changes to 8/10/12.

nobleiceman,

I forgot to mention, the tvfool data you posted has KGW on 8,
but OPB on 27 and KPTV on 30. IIRC there is some spreadsheet
for estimating amp overload. If you try this you'll want the
actual channels (VHF vs UHF) and power levels for post
transition. And you'll want to include any analog stations
that are still around. These would be low power, but if they
are close enough they could contribute to overload.

So where do we find the 3D glasses for Chuck? I've been
looking for a couple weeks and can't find them.

These are supposed to be purple and yellow? Has anyone
put these in a transparency scanner so we can see what
particular shades they are?

Seems like watching through colored lenses would
spoil the color? This wasn't a problem for Creature
from the Black Lagoon since that was black & white,
but I don't see how it would work for color.

Did this give everyone a bad enough headache that they
will put 3D back on the shelf for another 25 years?

The 3-D glasses were in conjunction with some super bowl 3-D commercials. They went pretty fast in most stores. The albertson's near here went empty of them within a couple of hours.

Wasn't the Chuck 3-D show just a one-time event? I never found the glasses and watched the 3-D show without them. Of course, the colors sucked, but I noticed that they were also muted in intensity, which I suspect would be the case with the glasses too.

Yes, the Chuck 3-D was one episode. The glasses (which were available at Safeway) are brown and very dark blue. The brown lens lets some sense of color pass through while the blue lens lets almost nothing through: it's dark and very blurry. I found my left eye ended up doing most of the work and the 3-D effect diminished as my right eye just gave up.

For last couple of weeks I've been having a problem getting listing in TVGOS. I used to have them come in via PBS I think, but then they seemed to start coming in from KOIN. But for last couple of weeks I've gotten only intermittent data.

By that I mean I might have a few hours of one or two stations, scattered here and there, but most listing show "no listing". Strangely, PBS usually has listing info.

Exception, I seem to have a full day for Tuesday, the 17th. Does anyone know if the data is still sent out at 2:00 am and is still covering today, tommorrow, and week for tdoay? (thats how it was done around a year ago at least).

Is Koin doing the TVGOS now, and is it via their digital or analog broadcast?

Thanks
Rick

So where do we find the 3D glasses for Chuck? I've been looking for a couple weeks and can't find them.

These are supposed to be purple and yellow? Has anyone
put these in a transparency scanner so we can see what
particular shades they are?

The lenses are yellow and blue. I think this is to correspond with the TV's colors - Red + Green = yellow. I got glasses at the Tigard Fred Meyer the day after the superbowl, Feb 2, after getting annoyed that they would make 1080i so blurry. I have the 3D show on the media center DVR in HD and have the glasses. It's nothing special, and is nowhere as good as 3d shutter glasses or polarized 3d, and is just a bit less frustrating to watch than a stereogram. You can PM me if you can't find a pair.

So where do we find the 3D glasses for Chuck? I've been
looking for a couple weeks and can't find them.

These are supposed to be purple and yellow? Has anyone
put these in a transparency scanner so we can see what
particular shades they are?

Seems like watching through colored lenses would
spoil the color? This wasn't a problem for Creature
from the Black Lagoon since that was black & white,
but I don't see how it would work for color.

Did this give everyone a bad enough headache that they
will put 3D back on the shelf for another 25 years?


Great, thanks again! I'll take all of this into account and do some more research as well as discuss the options with my parents (since they'll actually be paying for it all).

You mentioned that KATU is the weakest signal according to the tvfool chart. That gives me some hope, as at one time the KATU digital signal did come through, weak, but it was there on and off...

(Feb. 16, 2009) WEST PALM BEACH, FLA.: ION Television is delaying the launch of its hi-def service to avoid confusion with the DTV transition. The network moved its HD debut date from today to March 16.

The network previously said it would launch HD service in 20 markets on Feb. 16, one day before the nationwide analog TV shutdown. Now that the end date has been extended to a four-month window from Feb. 17 to June 12, ION decided to hold back on its launch. The network will now go HD in the same 20 markets in mid-March, and launch HD on its other 40 stations in 25 markets later in the year.

http://www.televisionbroadcast.com/article/74704

In my quest to get a signal from KORS (Channel 16's digital), Solid Signal has recommended the AD-C4 antenna for my single story attic mount. They originally recommended the Weingard 1080 which has worked great but, the new low power KORS 16-1, 2, 3, 4 can't "be gotten".

My antenna is an attic mount in a single story home w/ about 75~ feet of RG6cable run to a single Toshiba HDTV, which is "seeing" through a typical asphalt shingle roof. I'm at about 250~ foot elevation over in "Western Camas" area just off Leadbetter road, just south of Lacamas Lake. No large trees in front of me though the slight rolling valley facing Portland then over the hill and "down" to Route 14 has some high trees, an airport (PDX ad Vancouver) and we get a fair amount of wind too. I'm just under 17 miles from the Portland transmitters.

My weingard 1080 antenna is oriented to "best signal" of KPDX and KORS after several "tweaks". Most Analog is "ghostly" but, my DIGITAL signals and sound on: KATU, KOIN, KGW, KOPB, KPTV (lowest signal strength), KPXG, KTBN, KRCW all are in low 80-s/90's and even the "broken/half power" KPDX (ch 49-1) signal, though weaker at about "high 50's" doesn't break up at all - "excellent" overall. However, the low power KORS (digital ch 16's) breaks up and can't be held to watch except very occasionally. Peak signal never has been higher than a 49 and typically breaks up in high 30's/low 40's and holds w/ some pixeling at mid 40's signal - not enough!

So, not totally understanding the Db/Dbi #'s, gain/loss, other #'s, etc., but, knowing we'll have high VHF and existing UHF channels, I want to keep my great reception of above channels and add KORS to my lineup. Comparing my weingard 1080 and the Antenna Direct C4 any comments thoughts??

BTW- I can pick up PBS outa Corvallis, R26Gj, ch 35 HSN, etc., w/ snow/grain even though my antenna isn't oreinted "on purpose" to these stations. All the Spainsh stations are decent too but not needed. Objective is to add a nice KORS/KOXI signal to my above lineup....

I'll try moving my current Weingard antenna to other places in the attic but, I'm trying to get FROM a typical "low 40's signal" to "at least low 60's" out of a low power station - ...

So is an antenna with higher gain in order and not "overload" AND will the C4 -- for example STILL provide good VHF reception for the transition of a few stations from UHF to VHF?

thanx for all the comments and advice! :confused:

Yes, the Chuck 3-D was one episode. The glasses (which were available at Safeway) are brown and very dark blue. The brown lens lets some sense of color pass through while the blue lens lets almost nothing through: it's dark and very blurry. I found my left eye ended up doing most of the work and the 3-D effect diminished as my right eye just gave up.

For the Super Bowl, we used 9 pairs. The next day, I discovered that at least four of them had defective blue sides that were composed of multiple layers making them very dark.

If you still have the glasses, you might check if you had a defective pair.

> Solid Signal has recommended the AD-C4 antenna

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=C4
http://www.antennasdirect.com/C4-Clearstream-DTV-antenna.html

I can't find any charts/graphs for the C4. Back in November I
looked at the C2 and found graphs:

If their "directivity" graph means gain, it is impressively flat.
The beam pattern graph however, sucks big time.

The C4 appears to be 2 C2s stuck together, for only $2 more.

AD claims "Gain of 14.8 dBi" which would be 12.65 dBd.
Impressive given the dimensions. Does it use a builtin amplifier?
If so beware of overload.

I wonder what a "tapered loop" is?

SolidSignal says: "The C4 offers flexible aiming characteristics with
an extremely wide 70 degree beamwidth, while still providing
resistance to multi-path interference." I don't find this claim on
the AD site. The way you eliminate multipath is to concentrate the
beam on the stations you want. A wide beamwidth is fundamentally
opposed to resistance to multi-path.

If (big if) it meets their marketing claims, and doesn't use an amp,
it would probably work ok for you. It costs more than the 8800,
which I think would work ok for you. I'm working on capturing some
frames for you, but the internet is being flaky today and I can't
get them uploaded.

> So is an antenna with higher gain in order and not "overload"

A passive (no amplifier) antenna will not overload. It can overload
the tuner, but you can fix that with a splitter or a $2 attenuator.
An active antenna (with builtin preamp) can overload the preamp,
and it is likely to be difficult or impossible to fix it.
At under 17 miles you should not need a preamp.

BTW, instead of a barrel connector, use a HLSJ diplexor with the
low port terminated. That will reduce interference.

Found this web site recently....thought it might be a fun read for OTA people:
The Oregon section is pretty good.

http://www.fybush.com/siteindex.html

If you still have the glasses, you might check if you had a defective pair.

Nope the blue lenses on my sheet are only one layer thick.

nobleiceman and JeffinWesternWA might be interested in

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623&pp=30&page=290

Digital Rules writes:
DR> I tested the CS1, 2, & 4 against the Winegard 1080. None of the CS
DR> antennas would decode a LP digital channel 8 only 6 miles away. (That
DR> channel 8 is wedged between full power analog channels 7 & 9@4 miles
DR> away) The 1080 was the only antenna able to decode the channel.

and

DR> There is no "combo" antenna out there that will work better on UHF than
DR> a good UHF only antenna. Only the Winegard 8200 comes close.

Looking at a photo of the clearstream units, I think I see the "taper" now.

...since I'm attempting to get a much better digital signal of low power on UHF (KORS) AND leaning to the ADC4 (or other suggestions from y'all) might the gain on UHF be worth it if VHF reception was same - though I'm slightly concerned w/ reception/signal of the two or three stations that are supposed to go back to high VHF after June 12...)

I have the Wein 1080 now, for $30 it is a great antenna and does a great job (imagine in town/suburban use would do justice for many here lookin' for an attic or smaller outdoor combo antenna w/ LOS reception) but @ 16 miles away over here and w/ the terrain (see my two posts on p239) I can't get the signal strength on the lower powered digital KORS Ch 16's above 40's strength and I need low 60's anyway to keep the pic from breakin up...and, I hear from folksat WatchTV there is/are another digital or two stations to still come aboard, and they will be similar lower transmission power like KORS...

though first: moving W1080 antenna in the attic so as to "see" thru only one roof side vice 2 or maybe 3 of mine (twin peak roof lines) and be hopefully outa the line of sight of my neighbors roof, and maybe 2-3 feet higher (to maybe 18 foot above ground vice 16~ now) is first trick to help...

thoughts??

JeffinWesternWA,

Here is channel 12 NTSC using PR-8800.
How does this look to you?

http://f.imagehost.org/0415/kpdx_b.png

pretty darned good! Grabed some extra RG6 and a connector today and hope to move the W1080 to different attic location soon, hoping the 2-3 roof peaks the antenna is currently looking "thru" can be reduced to just one and, w/ more height, help w/ KORS signal strength, we'll see....appreciate the info, research, thoughts.....though I've found several higly positive responses of users of both W1080 and the AD C4 antenna on the net...

I hope it's OK that I post here. I don't know where else to try and you guys seem to really know the technicals....

My home is right on SE 52nd and Steele in Portland and it doesn't seem like I live THAT far into the "boonies" but for the life of me I can't get any digital signal. I've been up and down a ladder well over 100 times in the last few weeks. I brought the setup that I had in Sellwood to my new home and while I could get every channel perfectly in Sellwood I can't get even a single channel up on 52nd. I do have some pretty large trees in between my home and the SW hills but it seems like I should be able to get something up here.

I have a Channel Master 4221HD (Blue boy?) mounted about 9 feet off the chimney and I'm using a Samsung SIR-T151. Belden Quad-Shield RG6 connecting everything in between (about 35ft)

No matter how much I adjust I haven't been able to pick up a single channel and my receiver is all or nothing.

Anyone have any idea what I might replace this antenna with to get reception here in the inner SE area? Anything I can add to make what I already have work?

Thanks in advance,

-Goldie in SE PDX

I hope it's OK that I post here. I don't know where else to try and you guys seem to really know the technicals....

My home is right on SE 52nd and Steele in Portland and it doesn't seem like I live THAT far into the "boonies" but for the life of me I can't get any digital signal. I've been up and down a ladder well over 100 times in the last few weeks. I brought the setup that I had in Sellwood to my new home and while I could get every channel perfectly in Sellwood I can't get even a single channel up on 52nd. I do have some pretty large trees in between my home and the SW hills but it seems like I should be able to get something up here.

I have a Channel Master 4221HD (Blue boy?) mounted about 9 feet off the chimney and I'm using a Samsung SIR-T151. Belden Quad-Shield RG6 connecting everything in between (about 35ft)

No matter how much I adjust I haven't been able to pick up a single channel and my receiver is all or nothing.

Anyone have any idea what I might replace this antenna with to get reception here in the inner SE area? Anything I can add to make what I already have work?

Thanks in advance,

-Goldie in SE PDX
I'm just on the other side of Powell from you, so we're fairly close, and I pick up all the channels using a Silver Sensor indoor antenna.

Is it possible that your coax or the balun was damaged in your move?

Have you tried just moving the antenna around while holding it in your hands rather that with it mounted to your chimney to see if a slightly different location may pull in the stations?

I'm just on the other side of Powell from you, so we're fairly close, and I pick up all the channels using a Silver Sensor indoor antenna.

Is it possible that your coax or the balun was damaged in your move?

Have you tried just moving the antenna around while holding it in your hands rather that with it mounted to your chimney to see if a slightly different location may pull in the stations?

I've tried walking around on the roof and standing the antenna up on each corner of the roof but can't seem to pull in even a single channel. The Antenna was definitely not handled in the best manner when I threw it off the old roof. So my next question is....What's a balun?

Thanks,
-Goldie

Balun:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/bb/Tvbalun.jpg/180px-Tvbalun.jpg http://rsk.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pRS1C-2266620w345.jpg



If you're that close to the towers and line of sight, could it be you are just overloading? Do you have a set of rabbit ears or UHF loop around somewhere, to see what a lot less antenna gets you? Or a paperclip? :D DS got half the stations with 2' of dangling coax, and that was 15 miles away and 1 edge.

Balun:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/bb/Tvbalun.jpg/180px-Tvbalun.jpg http://rsk.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pRS1C-2266620w345.jpg



If you're that close to the towers and line of sight, could it be you are just overloading? Do you have a set of rabbit ears or UHF loop around somewhere, to see what a lot less antenna gets you? Or a paperclip? :D DS got half the stations with 2' of dangling coax, and that was 15 miles away and 1 edge.

I'll have to climb up there and look at the Balun tomorrow. I do remember checking to make sure it was still connected since I used the coax attached to it to swing the antenna from the roof to clear my shrubbery :) (lasso practice). I guess i need to dig through the closet for a wire hanger and see what I can find tonight.

Thanks for the help,

-Goldie

Too add to TalkingRat's post, Sometimes those small wires break or the connections become corroded or get loose on the balun.

Balun:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/bb/Tvbalun.jpg/180px-Tvbalun.jpg http://rsk.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pRS1C-2266620w345.jpg



If you're that close to the towers and line of sight, could it be you are just overloading? Do you have a set of rabbit ears or UHF loop around somewhere, to see what a lot less antenna gets you? Or a paperclip? :D DS got half the stations with 2' of dangling coax, and that was 15 miles away and 1 edge.

Yep you're right there's something wrong between here and the antenna because with a coat hanger and two pieces of paperclip to act as a an adapter to the coax splitter I can pull in 2-1, 2-2, 8-1, 8-2, 22-1, 22-2, 22-3, 22-4, 24-1, 24-2, 24-3, 24-4, 24-5, and 32-1....I can't wait to see what I can pull in once I figure out where the problem is.

Thanks again for the help!

-Goldie

Hi-
My apologies if this is a totally inappropriate place to post this.

I have recently put some stuff out to pasture and it's not doing anybody any good.
I can't afford to give it away, but close to it. Here's a list. PM me if interested or any questions.

tia, Lew

LG LST-3410a OTA & QAM dvr $75
Samsung Sir-T165 OTA tuner $75
Mits HS-HD 2000u D-VHS recorder w/7 DF-300 tapes $50
Onkyo TX-SR500 $50
2 Bose 161 wall mount speakers $50
2 6 1/2" inexpensive NIB in wall/ceiling speakers $25


Lew,

Please message me off the board at goldade(at)gmail(dotcom) and I'll take the LG 3410 off your hands.

Goldie

pretty darned good! Grabed some extra RG6 and a connector today and hope to move the W1080 to different attic location soon, hoping the 2-3 roof peaks the antenna is currently looking "thru" can be reduced to just one and, w/ more height, help w/ KORS signal strength, we'll see....appreciate the info, research, thoughts.....though I've found several higly positive responses of users of both W1080 and the AD C4 antenna on the net...

Whenever you are debugging problems, you should always try to simplify as much as possible. If possible you should grab a TV and take it into the attic. Seriously.

I don't know how bulky your TV is, but it might be easier to fiddle with antenna placement and alignment while you are in the attic. Plugging an antenna directly into the TV would also eliminate any problems your long coax run is contributing.

:) gonna be tough bringin a 47" LCD Toshiba up a 13 1/2' and very narrow garage ladder/step...but, since I wired the house before finishing it, and was confident the RG6U run" of about 65' ft length is ok, I imagine it's either, 1) too much "blockage" (i.e. roof peaks) my antenna has to see thru, and/or 2) need an antenna w/ more gain...cuz KORS is very low powered and I can't "see" the towers over the couple hills, 2 airports, river and thru the "wind, trees, etc.," 17 miles away (though the trees are over couple hunderd yards+ away from me, but, in line w/ tower direction, along w/ 2-3 of mine and neighbor roof peaks to "see thru" )...I imagine either/or moving the antenna
(only ONE roof peak to pick up signals thru), getting an antewnna w/ more gain (ex W8800 or ADc4 for example) or BOTH (in combo w/ KORS getting a new antenna to xmit and getting about 100' higher on the xmit tower-as they told me they would be) will cure the problem...all other channels are 80+ to low 90's signal (w/ exception of 49-1, operating on low power since Dec storm, it was like FOX 12-1my "weakest" w/ about an 80~ pound signal till that happened-now about mid 50's but watchable w/ nary a dropoff), just KORS isn't watchable and I'd like it to be!

thanx! others??

Yep you're right there's something wrong between here and the antenna because with a coat hanger and two pieces of paperclip to act as a an adapter to the coax splitter I can pull in 2-1, 2-2, 8-1, 8-2, 22-1, 22-2, 22-3, 22-4, 24-1, 24-2, 24-3, 24-4, 24-5, and 32-1....I can't wait to see what I can pull in once I figure out where the problem is.

Thanks again for the help!

-Goldie

The photo shows a Zenith CECB in use with a Staples #1 Standard Size Indoor Antenna (S1SSIA). What appears to be something attached to the S1SSIA is actually the letter "D" on the side of my Dell computer seen beyond the Zenith.

In my location (North Portland, line of sight about five miles from the antenna farms) the S1SSIA performs about as well as my other indoor antennas, a RCA ANT115, a RCA ANT111 and a Philips SDV2270/17. I get 2.1, 2.2, 6.1, 8.1, 8.2, 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, 10.4, 12.1, 16.1, 16.2, 16.3, 16.4, 22.1, 22.2, 22.3, 22.4, 24.1, 24.2, 24.3, 24.4, 24.5, 32.1, 49.1.

I have the Portland, Eugene and Yakima coverage maps seeding overnight for the http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=41 torrent site.

This evening seems to have a few torrent seeds going but I will leave mine up all night.

I'm just on the other side of Powell from you, so we're fairly close, and I pick up all the channels using a Silver Sensor indoor antenna.

Is it possible that your coax or the balun was damaged in your move?

Have you tried just moving the antenna around while holding it in your hands rather that with it mounted to your chimney to see if a slightly different location may pull in the stations?

I turned the antenna around 180 degrees and it magically started working perfectly :p

Thanks again for the help everybody

heh!! magic's cool :)

Glad you got it working

Earl

Here's to the power of giving it a twirl. :)

In the last couple days, I learned a bit more about the relative strengths of my converter boxes. I hooked up the Zenith in place of the TR40, because I got tired of constant audio breakups on KRCW. But when KORS got weak yesterday, the CM7000 held on in the low 20s, while the Zenith broke into unrecognizable images. Between the two of them, I've got wobbly signals covered, whether weak or strong.

Channel 33 usually comes in poorly for me, but starting on
the 15th it is coming in perfectly. Channel 32 is still
there, so it isn't 32 going away. Anyone know of something
that changed between 2009-01-26 and 2009-02-15 that might
affect channel 33?

I don't even see (33) it on my Yahoo Portland OTA guide? Is it an analog station??..If so, that's why, since I'm gettin all the Portland stations fine via digital 'cept KOXI/KORS (Ch 20 analog/16-1-4 digital - and my spanish isn't anywhere good enough to watch the sp language analog stations:) as I'm gonna try some antenna moving later today to see if that helps KOXI signal strength which at best pounds a 49 peak and mid-higher 40's but often KOXI is just 40+ peak and 30's~ signal on the meter, thus mostly freezing/pixeling or blank screen...:mad:

> what is Ch 33?

WB or CW or whatever they're calling themselves this week.
The digital version of channel 5 (or 32 from Salem).
They occasionally have a movie worth watching.

Ah, yes they do,...I just re-oriented my attic hangin Wein 1080 antenna for the thousand-th some time, more of a westerly direction got a slightly better KORS signal (about a 4-7% "gain" on the TV signal meter - though weather was rain, wind, dry, etc., and I imagine that impacted signal steadiness) w/ about a 8-10% LOSS of KPDX 49-1 signal though...TEMPERMENTAL!!

Though as of now, neither digitals 16. or 49. are pixeling, but, signals are only high 40's/low 50's respectively...it's been rain, light and heavy w/ some wind as I did the oreintation, appeared a bit better when rain wasn't falling...(?)

I also removed about a 6 foot "tail" of RG-6 cable from the antenna that was barrell connected to the main RG 6 cable run from the TV, deleting the 6ft and the "extra connection" showed IMMEDIATE picture improvement and about 1-2% signal gain! THAT helped, ...

Think though still KORS is gonna have to get (as they said they are) that new antenna AND higher up on the pole I imagine for me and others more than 15~ miles away to watch 99% "disease free" and also, KPDX STILL needs to fix their x mas storm damage that has them at about 1/2+ xmit power before the December storm....hmmm

oh well, we'll see if KORS (16-3 primarily) is watchable now (?)

oh well, we'll see if KORS (16-3 primarily) is watchable now (?)

I called KOXI 16-3 the other day asking about the audio problems. They said they are aware of it and are working on it.

It seems that America One's movies are often poor prints, perhaps 16mm versions? The "classic movies" are shown from 3-5 a.m. and the "westerns" are shown from 10:30-noon weekdays.

Schedules (in Eastern Time) are found here:

http://www.americaone.com/schedule/index.htm

Schedules for the other newcomer, KATU's THIS TV, are found here:

http://www.katu.com/about/schedule

"> what is Ch 33?"
It is CH 32's digital channel.

"KPDX STILL needs to fix their x mas storm damage that has them at about 1/2+ xmit power before the December storm"
Why? They were expecting to turn it off last week until management decided to wait until June. They plan to shut it down then. So, why would they spend the money to fix it now?

KATU analog is running at about 40% power, also. Since ice storm damage in December. They probably won't fix it, either. They also thought they were going to shut it down a week ago. No point paying to fix it now. Unless, they realize the same 6% not ready for the shutdown last week still won't be ready in June.....or anytime until the stations shut down and force them to. Of course, sweeps and the OPB pledge drive will be done by then. Besides, no one watches tv in the summer, anyway. Right?

I notice, at my site in East Gresham, that wind and rain affect reception....particularly on the higher UHF channels. If it is clear and calm, all stations (except 49-DT) are solid, including CH16. They all read 100% on my CM7000. If it is raining, as it has been this week, the signal level varies a bit on CH2 and a few others and I get pixilation. IF it is not raining, as it was last Friday evening, but the wind blows, the same thing. The wind moving the trees in the path affects the signal. I'll have to look around my roof to see where I can get the most obstruction free path to the west hills. I used to 20 years ago when I put up that antenna but the trees between them and me grew up. I can't see squat now. Maybe in the opposite corner there might be fewer trees. I'll try moving it up the mast about 4 feet, also. It is currently sitting at 6' on a 10' mast. I'll take down the CH22 antenna pointing south that is currently on the top of the mast but not needed anymore.
Evidently the trees knock down the CH48 signal such that I read 0% on all my decoders. The HD TV just says no signal...off the air.

What is ch 48?? ...we're both "maybe" same distance from the Portland antenna farm (I'm 16-17 miles)??...reorienting my antenna which slightly reduced my 12.1, 49.1 and 2.1 signal strength though IMPROVED KORS (along w/ removing one barrell connecter and a 6ft lenght of Rg 6), so I'm runnning one cable from antenna to wall outlet and one from outlet to TV, both RG6U, the signal with just removing the exra RG6 and connector gained 2-4% of signal strength and a much more westerly (about 225-230') orientation has helped KORS, even w/ rain, wind...I too have some tall trees but, they are over 150-200+ yards away, ...though my antenna in the attic, must see "thru" a couple roof peaks and the corner of my neighbors roof, impeding signal I imagine...we'll see how KORS holds up (been 3 days, watchable over 80% of the time, even w/ snow this am and rain/wind yesterday ... time will tell!) and then I'll think about moving and/or upgrading the Wein1080 attic antenna...the KORS new x mitter and location higher up the pole at the farm should help,.... KPDX 49.1 doesn't pixel for me cept maybe 2%~ of the time in severe conditions here at all, though I dropped the signal strength 10%~ when I reoriented antenna more westerly direction for KORS...I'm not concerned w/ any analog stations since they are either spanish or "repeaters", so I'm all digital as of now, ...and Watchtv is supposed to add another channel but maybe (IAW their call back to me) on Channel 41(?), ...unknown what kind of programming though, and, I'm looking forward to maybe ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX adding another digital sub channel or two, anyone got any news there??

Jeff writes:

> tough bringin a 47" LCD Toshiba up a 13 1/2' and very narrow
> garage ladder/step

If you can afford a 47" LCD you can afford a good antenna.
If the XG91 doesn't fit in your attic, get a 8800, it
should be much better than your 1080.

> What is ch 48??

Please read the first message in this thread.

> my antenna in the attic, must see "thru" a couple roof peaks

I thought you were going to move the antenna so it would
only have to "look" through one roof?

> I'm looking forward to maybe ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX adding
> another digital sub channel or two

Please no! Too any subchannels means crappy compression artifacts.
See OPB for a prime example.

NTSC - Never Twice the Same Color
ATSC - Artifacts? Too many Sub Channels!

----------

kimco52 writes:

> Unless, they realize the same 6% not ready for the shutdown
> last week still won't be ready in June

It is impossible to be ready for analog shutdown until digital is
as reliable as analog.

> If it is raining ... I get pixilation

> the wind blows, the same thing

> The HD TV just says no signal...off the air.

You are not ready for analog shutdown.

Actually, I am ready for analog shutdown. My tv has an early generation tuner so it is not as good as later models. However, I have an outboard tuner that works better and I can use it's HDMI out or component out if I need to. When the good weather comes, I will work on the antenna situation on the roof.
Otherwise, I have converter boxes to use if I need to. I don't watch that much tv anyway and what I do watch is not on my problem stations.

From Washougal Wash, 16 should be in the same line as 48 (49's digital channel for now). I believe 16 is on KGW's tower at Skyline. KPDX is just behind them to the west and slightly NW of KPTV.

thanx! the w8800 IS on my list, first though: I tried just removing the 6 foot of RG6 cable and barrell connector and reorienting the W1080to KORS, (saving time from having to relocate/moving it all together) and (hopefully) over time, I won't bump the antenna in attic if left where it is-though it has to "see" through the 2-3 roof peaks,... now: KORS has come in 98% of time! some minor pixels this am, great all day and last PM w/ weather changin too so, last two days, can watch it fine, ....so "maybe" w/ their hopefully improved xmitter and moving it up the pole this spring/summer, I won't need new antenna at all(?)...but, if so W8800 or ADC4 (2nd choice I guess) are on on my list (I CAN afford it!) but, only maybe after I try moving the W1080 as next step to improving KORS signal(bet the added cable and connnector will degrade signal, I saw 2-4% improvement removing it!)...but, we'll see if weather, spring leaves, etc., cause any pixelation on KORS...all the info has been great, keep it comin! The Toshiba 47" 120 HZ LCD and 14 speakers throughout the house and in garage/outdoors too is "NICE"...:p

Sorry if this isn't the right forum, but I'm looking for stores in the Portland area and neighboring suburbs that have show rooms for projectors and home theater set-ups. Any recommendations?

http://www.projectus.com

After a satisfying week of reception,... even w/ some wind, rain, sun, clouds mid week this weekend the STRONG winds over here have played havoc w/ OTA reception again. KORS has again been unwatchable and, since my antenna is oriented to pick up KORS, KPDX is also pixeling. Interesting that even though all these stations are from the antenna farm, the "narrow beam" (best I can explain it) sight of my Weingard 1080 antenna AND the low power of KORS and KPDX (digital) signals can't hold up to the weather. Thursday and Friday, my KORS and KPDX (though weak) signals were high 40's at worst to high 50's for KPDX on the meter, and neither had pixeling but, now both have dropped as the east winds seem to play havoc. I can orent antenna to hold KPDX but, that loses KORS almost entirely.

No doubt, I have to find a simiilar size antenna w/ a MUCH higher gain on the ability to draw in KORS and KPDX (will KPDX they ever fix their xmitter and restore full power??) to watch w/ certainty over here in Camas/Lacamas meadows.

The new antenna really needs the "gain" on the expected channels of KORS (After transition) and the ability to not "overload" the other strong signals. Amplifier is probably out of the question being only 16-17 miles from x mitter. With attic placement, my highest signals are only low mid 90's so that's not expected to be a problem but, size of the antenna to fit in either present location or different spot in my attic are.

Not understanding the "numbers" often seen on Solid Signal website, etc., about antenna "reception and gain, etc.,", I'd ike "explained" the meaning and how various suggested antennas: (Weingard 8800, ADC4, etc., others??) compare to make a decision.

thanx!

> Not understanding the "numbers" often seen on Solid Signal website,
> etc., about antenna "reception and gain, etc.,", I'd ike "explained"
> the meaning

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

Can you post a tvfool.com chart, like the one nobleiceman posted?

I can't seem to get the tvfool pic to copy and paste/post here but, 228-230' compass heading, 2 airports
(Vancouver and pdx) all LOS signals and 16.5 miles away are all the channels I've mentioned, ...

An attic mount antenna Weingard 1080 about 16-18 feet off the ground at about 250 foot elevation here in Lacamas MEadows (south off Lacamas Lake and just off Lake road by Underwriters lab,... about a 50-75 foot single run of RG6 to the cable/antenna connect outlet and a one foot connector from outlet to Toshiba Digital TV...My antenna looks "out" through my attic and 2-3 roof peaks and partially through neighbors roof too, nearest trees are 150 yards away, then some more at 300+ yards, then gentle rollling hills, "up" the valley to the peak over route 14, then almost a straight shot to the xmitters, biggest problem is KORS-DT (ch 16.1-4), best signal on meter is mid 50's, however, oreinting antenna for best signal strenght to mid 50's for KORS reduces KPDX -DT to an at best of high 50's, when WIND blows like this past weekend, the pixeling/freeze occurs, KORS-DT signal is 30's, low 40's ;...thx

note down in the article the "smart" antenna; fact, fiction, helpful possible for folks around here?

Free but fickle, digital TV reception eludes some

By Peter Svensson, AP Technology Writer

Harry Vanderpool, a beekeeper, lives on a hill nearly 1,000 feet above the Willamette River, outside Salem, Ore. It should be a good spot for TV reception, and it used to be.
But now that analog signals are disappearing, leaving only digital ones, he may be losing all his channels.

"When you listen to the advertisements, it's 'Oh, all you have to do is get this little digital converter box and hook it up,'" Vanderpool said. "Well, we get nothing. Zero signal strength."

While generally better than analog, digital reception with antennas can be tricky. Although millions of people will receive more channels when switching to digital, many others are finding that stations they used to get in analog form won't come in on their converter boxes or digital TV sets.

In Ionia, Mich., retiree Bruce Jones is down to watching the two or three channels, rather than the dozen he used to get.

It's not just rural and small-town viewers like Jones who are having problems with the phase-out of analog TV, which has been on the air for nearly 70 years. It's being done to give more room on the airwaves to wireless broadband, TV for cellphones and emergency communications.

In Hollywood, broadcast engineer Dana Puopolo gets the local stations fine with an indoor antenna in his bedroom, where he gets a view of the broadcast towers on Mt. Wilson, a dozen miles away. But even an amplified indoor antenna isn't enough to supply a watchable image to his widescreen TV, which is in the living room on the other side of the apartment.

"You can get it so the picture's perfect, and then when you sit down, 30 seconds later it pixelates into oblivion," Puopolo said, describing how the picture breaks up into big chunks of color. "The dirty little secret about digital is that it doesn't have nearly the coverage of analog."

A third of the country's TV stations have already turned off their analog signals. Many of them stuck to the original Feb. 17 deadline set by the government, even though it was hastily extended to June 12 to provide additional funding for converter box coupons. However, most of the stations that have turned off early are in smaller cities and sparsely populated areas. The big-city stations are mostly waiting until June 12.

On Feb. 18, the day after more than 400 stations went all-digital, nearly half of the 25,320 people who called the Federal Communications Commission's DTV call center did so because of a reception or antenna issue. Of the rest, most called because they had problems relating to the converter boxes or coupons.

There are several issues that conspire to make digital reception tricky. They can be especially vexing because digital broadcasting is an all-or-nothing proposition: You either get a perfect image or you get nothing at all. The only in-between state is the intermittent freezing that Puopolo experienced, which is more irritating than snow or static wandering across the screen of an analog TV.

A study published last year by market research firm Centris estimated that more than half of all households will have problems with digital reception. The study was criticized by several groups as exaggerating the problem. The FCC itself said 5% of households were likely to have problems.

Vanderpool's reception problem is likely due to the fact that nearly all digital signals are in the UHF band, which doesn't travel well over hills compared with the VHF band — channels 2 through 13, where most major stations broadcast in analog. While Vanderpool is on a hill himself, his home is in a small dell. Even the UHF addition to his antenna doesn't seem to overcome that.

The FCC official in charge of engineering and technology, Julius Knapp, said that when a station moves from VHF to UHF, there are spots where the signal will not reach as well as it did before, even though overall coverage will be the same.

The good news for people like Vanderpool is that some stations will use their VHF frequencies for digital transmissions after June 12.

But overall, there will be fewer VHF TV signals because channels 2 to 6 in that band are difficult to use for digital transmission, particularly the lowest ones. As Puopolo put it, the electrical noise from a thunderstorm or a passing bus can disrupt a digital TV picture on those frequencies.

And moving digital signals from UHF to VHF carries its own set of problems. Some indoor antennas that have been marketed as being for "HDTV reception" are designed for UHF only and will do a poor job with VHF. In general, it's difficult to make good indoor antennas for VHF.

Bruce Franca, vice president of policy and technology at the Association for Maximum Service Television, a broadcast industry group, said new "smart" antennas can help a lot of people. These can direct themselves electronically to pick up the best signals, which is particularly useful in households that lie between major cities. In his home outside Washington, D.C., he uses a smart antenna pick up both Washington and Baltimore stations.

"I can watch both the Orioles and Nationals, and you don't have get up and adjust the antenna," he said.

Many stations now have an analog antenna at the top of their transmission tower and a digital one mounted lower down on the side of the tower. Many plan to eventually move the digital antenna to the top, which can improve coverage. The FCC also has given stations clearance to put up a new type of small repeater station for digital signals to help with coverage in hard-to-reach pockets.

There are other developments that are likely to improve reception in the future, but it's not clear if people who have reception problems will have the patience to wait for them, or if they'll conclude on June 13 that they need to pay for satellite or cable.

Puopolo has already given up on over-the-air TV, expanded his satellite package for $10 a month to get high-definition programming for his widescreen. But, he said, digital TV can catch up, just like color TV did after some initial problems.

"Remember the old color TVs that had color controls? You'd adjust the knob to get a good flesh tone, and then you'd sit down and 10 minutes later the guy would have a purple face, and you'd have to adjust again," he said. "It's like any technology — there's growing pains

> note down in the article the "smart" antenna; fact,
> fiction, helpful possible for folks around here?

A "smart" antenna is 4 crappy antennas pointed in four directions,
the electronics automagically picks the least terrible.

Useful for lazy people that want to automatically get crappy
reception from multiple directions.

Not useful for Portland, assuming you only want stations from
the main Portland antenna farm. We are much better off with
2 (1 VHF-HI and 1 UHF) good antennas pointed at the antenna farm.

In theory someone could build a smart antenna with multiple
good antennas, but I haven't heard about such a thing.
It would be huge (too large for an attic), heavy, catch a lot
of wind, and expensive.

If you have multiple tuners you need a smart antenna for each.
And lots of tuners do not support smart antennas.

i've never visited this thread before and it's up to 121 pages and i am not about to read all 121 for my answer and i really have no idea what to search for.

i have comcast with a motorola 3416 hd-dvr and a toshiba 46 inch lcd. on some programming ( 4:3 ), it's like the black bars on the sides do not go up all the way and you can see the rest of the broadcast through a few lines of pixels.
what causes this? is this a comcast thing?

135399

Antennas Direct got funded by the NAB to come up with a smart antenna design. They are using the 909A standard, but since I didn't expect these things to be perfected soon, I didn't buy a CECB with a smart antenna connection. Here's a recent (2/22/09) comment from Antennas Direct, whose prototype Smart Antenna was shown last September:

I have been working on smart / reconfigurable antennas for over a decade and I'm guessing that we may have another 5 to 10 years before there is widespread adoption of the technology. That said, we now have demonstrable prototypes of a very sophisticated indoor smart antenna that employs tunable microstrip disc elements. Unfortunately, our ability to launch any smart antenna product is uncertain due to compatibility and implementation issues within the installed base of enabled receivers (mostly coupon boxes) and lack of commitment from the major television manufacturers to include well executed CEA909 / 909A interfaces and firmware in their flat panel televisions. Suffice it to say that there are substantial risks in rolling out a new product in a nascent market, which may or may not be ready from both technical and consumer acceptance points of view. We are capable of, and interested in, taking smart antenna solutions to market, but for now we are still cautiously assessing the situation. That is about all I can say for now.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=885819

very interesting, ...as I watch KORS again, ....amazin what "invisible wind does to invisible tv signals" (UN watchable on Sat and Sunday) ...guess I'm hopin for a "magic" VHF-hi/UHF w/ plenty of "UHF gain" and about the size of my W1080 to fit in the current attic space...:) appreciate the info...

KORS will more than triple their power once they get the go-ahead to build. They go from 15 kW to 53kW.

i've never visited this thread before and it's up to 121 pages and i am not about to read all 121 for my answer and i really have no idea what to search for.

i have comcast with a motorola 3416 hd-dvr and a toshiba 46 inch lcd. on some programming ( 4:3 ), it's like the black bars on the sides do not go up all the way and you can see the rest of the broadcast through a few lines of pixels.
what causes this? is this a comcast thing?

135399


No, I see it OTA, in particular with Fox KPTV 12. With older content movies they sometimes have 1/2" gap in their pillars; it seems a shame to cover up a perfectly good picture.

you're right, come to think of it...i have seen it on OTA. so, it's the broadcaster that is doing that. that sucks.

thanx TR, ...I wonder when KORS will do that?? 53W should fix my reception of KORS (ch 16 digital) problems, and, along w/ KPDX-DT getting back to full power too (both stations IAW their phone calls ALSO have damaged xmitters too)...so we wait..

Sam7, it's partly tuner dependent. I get those lines and gaps with my CM7000 converter box, but I don't recall seeing them with the Zenith, or at least not the small gaps.

Jeff, KORS is as eager to get going on this as you are. They whined a bit on their last STA request, Nov 2008:

THE CIRCUMSTANCES JUSTIFYING AN STA ARE THE SAME AS IN THE PREVIOUS SIX REQUESTS.

KORS-CA CAUSED AND RECEIVED INTERFERENCE ON ITS LICENSED CHANNEL 36, SO IT APPLIED TO MOVE TO DIGITAL CHANNEL 16, FILE NO. BPTTA-20040902AAJ.

BECAUSE INTERFERENCE WAS OCCURRING NOTWITHSTANDING THE FREEZE ON CLASS A CHANGES THAT WAS IN EFFECT IN 2004, THE MEDIA BUREAU GRANTED AN STA TO OPERATE ON THE CHANNEL PROPOSED IN THE PENDING APPLICATION.

THE CONSTRUCTION PERMIT APPLICATION REMAINS PENDING, EVEN THOUGH THE FREEZE ON CHANGES TO CLASS A STATION FACILITIES WAS RECENTLY LIFTED.

AN EXTENSION OF THE STA IS NEEDED BECAUSE INTERFERENCE WOULD RESUME IF THE STATION WERE REQUIRED TO RETURN TO ANALOG CHANNEL 36. THE LICENSEE HOPES THAT WITH THE FREEZE LIFTED, ITS APPLICADTION FOR CONSTRUCTION PERMIT WILL BE GRANTED BEFORE ANOTHER EXTENSION OF ITS STA EXPIRES.

THE CIRCUMSTANCES ARE THUS THE SAME AS STATED IN OUR FIRST THROUGH SIXTH REQUESTS FOR EXTENSIONS OF THE STA, BESTA-20051114ABN, BESTA-20060509ABB, BESTA-20061109AAR, BESTA-20070522AAS, BESTA-20071113ADD, AND BESTA-20080512AAC, EXCEPT THAT WITH THE FREEZE NOW LIFTED. HOPEFULLY A CONSTRUCTION PERMIT WILL SOON BE GRANTED, SO THAT THERE WILL BE NO NEED FOR FURTHER STA'S.

No, I see it OTA, in particular with Fox KPTV 12. With older content movies they sometimes have 1/2" gap in their pillars;
The Fox network does this with all SD content. The top lines you see are the top lines of the 4:3 content stretched across the 16:9 frame. It's an artifact of how they encode things.

The typical overscan that most displays (even today) still have usually cover it up. You will see all kinds of crap around the edges of the screen on displays that don't overscan (i.e. the good ones). KATU had a green line for years. KGW might still have the yellow line on the left.

it seems a shame to cover up a perfectly good picture.
They are not covering up anything.

The Fox network does this with all SD content. The top lines you see are the top lines of the 4:3 content stretched across the 16:9 frame. It's an artifact of how they encode things.

The typical overscan that most displays (even today) still have usually cover it up. You will see all kinds of crap around the edges of the screen on displays that don't overscan (i.e. the good ones). KATU had a green line for years. KGW might still have the yellow line on the left.


They are not covering up anything.

What do you mean they are not covering up anything? I'm talking about times when the vertical pillars have a wide gap at the top -- and I could actually see the continuation of the picture underneath. When the gaps are 1/2" there is plenty to see. Fox had an old movie on, an outdoor scene with lawn and trees. Well, through that 1/2" gap, I could see lawn and trees, all the way to the edge of the TV. Note, this was not a true windowpane. It looked like a cropped picture, which it was. Since they didn't get the vertical pillars all the way up to the top of the picture, about 1/2" was exposed, and lawn and trees showed through in that gap.

What do you mean they are not covering up anything? I'm talking about times when the vertical pillars have a wide gap at the top -- and I could actually see the continuation of the picture underneath.

What you saw was the top of the 4:3 content minus the pillar bars stretched across the top of your screen. This "gap" is nothing more than the top twelve lines of the 4:3 content stretched across the 16:9 frame.

This topic has been covered countless times in the HDTV Programming forum since the first week Fox went HD. There is no picture being "covered" by the pillars. It's simply how Fox encodes pillar-boxed 4:3 material into a 16:9 frame.

What you saw was the top of the 4:3 content minus the pillar bars stretched across the top of your screen. This "gap" is nothing more than the top twelve lines of the 4:3 content stretched across the 16:9 frame.

This topic has been covered countless times in the HDTV Programming forum since the first week Fox went HD. There is no picture being "covered" by the pillars. It's simply how Fox encodes pillar-boxed 4:3 material into a 16:9 frame.


I guess I have a hard time understanding what I saw as no information. I would expect that much stretching to distort the picture, if they take a 25" dimension and stretch it to 32". It didn't look stretched, it looked cropped. Maybe I'll take another look some Saturday, when they run those droopy pillars. But I still look at it differently than to say nothing was lost. If you take a 25" picture and stretch it to 32" and then cover up 3" of each side, how is that losing nothing? ETA: I held a ruler up to the screen, and it was probably more like 1" short, although the two pillars were not the same length. They've had it where the pillar has been short on the bottom as well.

I guess I have a hard time understanding what I saw as no information. I would expect that much stretching to distort the picture, if they take a 25" dimension and stretch it to 32".
The top line you saw was distorted.

Maybe I'll take another look some Saturday, when they run those droopy pillars. But I still look at it differently than to say nothing was lost. If you take a 25" picture and stretch it to 32" and then cover up 3" of each side, how is that losing nothing?
They're not stretching the entire screen, only the top few lines! They do not intend people to see that bar because overscan normally wipes it out.

Here, I've done some work to show you exactly how this works. Here's a small crop of the right side of the Simpsons from a few months ago. For purposes of illustration, I've stretched the crop vertically so the few lines are more visible:

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/foxbar.jpg

Note that the bar stretching into the pillar area is nothing more than stuff below it, stretched so it's wider than 4:3. It does not contain additional information.

That's all it is.

> Fox had an old movie on, an outdoor scene with lawn and
> trees. Well, through that 1/2" gap, I could see lawn and
> trees, all the way to the edge of the TV. Note, this was
> not a true windowpane. It looked like a cropped picture,
> which it was. Since they didn't get the vertical pillars
> all the way up to the top of the picture, about 1/2" was
> exposed, and lawn and trees showed through in that gap.

On some channels they take a widescreen movie/show, crop it
down to 4:3, then broadcast it in pillarbox in 720p or 1080i.
Yes this is stupid, but that is what they do. :-(
If whatever they use to crop it down to 4:3 is defective,
it could give the results you describe. I think I've seen
that once or twice.

> I'll take another look some Saturday, when they run those
> droopy pillars

Is there a specific show/timeshot that does this?

Thank you for the visual, scowl. That helps me understand how they would do it. I don't recall seeing any picture discontinuity, but I could have missed it. Next time I'll know what to look for.

Konrad, I rarely watch on the weekend, so I'll have to check around to see if there is a standard oldies time. The movie I'm thinking of was an old dark blurry, awful PQ mess of a Barbra Streisand movie. Maybe it was so bad I didn't notice what they did to it. But I also have a recollection of one extremely misplaced pillar set, looking like a kindergartner paste job, with a short fat pillar not even squared, leaving a huge gap at both top and bottom. They were brown instead of black, so they really stuck out. They'd have to have stretched the bottom as well, which is possible, since I have seen a fat white line at the bottom, so there is as much to hide down there as at the top. But come to think of it, it has been a long while since I've seen the really bad pillars, so they may have improved technique.

Thank you for the visual, scowl. That helps me understand how they would do it. I don't recall seeing any picture discontinuity, but I could have missed it. Next time I'll know what to look for.
The animated shows are the easiest to tell what's happening since it's easy to see that the lines don't match up and the colored areas are actually stretched.

KORS will more than triple their power once they get the go-ahead to build. They go from 15 kW to 53kW.

Whoa, where'd you get that from? 15 kW is the FCC power limit, though the FCC has been known to make exceptions...

- Trip

Welcome back, Trip! I seem to be always misreading these FCC things, so tell me if it's something embarrassing like analog, lol. It is for channel 16, which is where KORS-CA has been transmitting digital since late October. The original application didn't mark the digital or analog box, and they've had years to file supplemental papers I would be sure to miss, anyway. This summary doesn't says digital, but there were only two FCC entries for KORS-CA, Ch 16 CP and Ch 36 Lic, which I gather they are not having to broadcast on, due to the 7 STAs they filed. KORS-CA wouldn't change digital frequencies again, would they? :p Or are the Class A and LP digital locations still undecided?

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=71069

Licensee: WATCHTV, INC.
Service Designation: CA Class A television station
Channel: 16 482 - 488 MHz Construction Permit
File No.: BPTTA-20040902AAJ Facility ID number: 71069
CDBS Application ID No.: 1009339

45° 31' 21.00" N Latitude Site in Canadian Border Zone
122° 44' 45.00" W Longitude (NAD 27)
Polarization:
Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 53. kW ERP
Antenna Height Above Average Terrain: - meters HAAT -- Calculate HAAT
Antenna Height Above Mean Sea Level: 525. meters AMSL
Antenna Height Above Ground Level: 183. meters AGL

Good to be back. Man, I had the shakes there for a while without my Internet! :D

That's definitely an analog permit; I can tell by looking at it through the CDBS (link below). The digital STAs they have are for 15 kW. For some reason, they filed for an analog 16 and never amended it to specify digital operation. I imagine that once they do (if they do), it'll show 15 kW.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1009339&Service=CA&Form_id=401&Facility_id=71069

- Trip

Thanks for being our local expert. :-)

Did you see this report from JeffinWesternWA? There are plans for raising the transmitter up 100', I sure didn't notice that CP, then either. Or maybe they figure since they have been ignored for 5 years, they can just build it, and it will be another 10 years before anybody notices.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15804826#post15804826

Thanks for being our local expert. :-)

Did you see this report from JeffinWesternWA? There are plans for raising the transmitter up 100', I sure didn't notice that CP, then either. Or maybe they figure since they have been ignored for 5 years, they can just build it, and it will be another 10 years before anybody notices.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15804826#post15804826

Hard to be a "local" expert from 2500 miles away :D but I'm glad to help out where I can.

They still haven't filed a CP for the DT-16 operation at all. I don't think they have to file a new STA until the new, higher facility goes on the air. I'd hope they'll permanently license it sometime soon, now that the freeze is lifted.

- Trip

Well RATS, that 53W was my escape from a new antenna! hopefully, the new xmitter aand higher up the pole will do? the heavier winds (we get a lot of 'em over here too) just causes the KORS signal to drop out...and KPDX 49.1 nees to gt fixed too, as my tuning to get KORS as best as possible has left KPDX subject o the same weather dropouts - though I can oreint antenna for no KPDX drops, then I just about entirely lose KORS....

We do have our station engineers, but they don't show up to talk very often. You know the area, and you show up to play.

So what's the plan for -CA and -LPs? Will there be an FCC list saying who moves where? I've seen a few lists locally, and they are full of "maybe"s. There is also an RF16 digital in Salem, but it's only 2kW, so even when I try for Salem, I still get KORS.

I doubt KPDX is going to fix that busted transmitter, since they get Fox's in June. Too bad KORS can't get more power. I get a 20-30% strength signal and the Zat shows 0-12% quality signal. My CM7000 can hold it most of the time, but I haven't found anything I really wanted to watch yet.

We do have our station engineers, but they don't show up to talk very often. You know the area, and you show up to play.

So what's the plan for -CA and -LPs? Will there be an FCC list saying who moves where? I've seen a few lists locally, and they are full of "maybe"s. There is also an RF16 digital in Salem, but it's only 2kW, so even when I try for Salem, I still get KORS.

Glad to be around. :)

There's not going to be any list I don't think, and to be quite honest, I doubt the FCC is going to set a deadline for LP and CA stations to go digital, as they've been claiming they will. I think this is one case where the market will solve the problem as stations which are analog-only will not have any viewers.

- Trip

the Fox xmitter will do for KPDX I imagine (signal was 70-s low 80's before the storm), KORS has a couple weekend shows when it's rainin and nothing else is on, and some old B&W movies that I might want to see once during the week. Couple other shows during reruns may be "ok" too, there, "move up the pole" and fixing their broken antenna/xmitter was told to me by a station manager few weeks ago, in addition, they have another channel comin' on board but, it's gonna be on ch 41 (?) not a ch 16. sub-channel IAW the manager...still a 53-55 peak signal and 50-ish that drops to 30's / 40's during WIND doesn't cut it, audio is mono too....

On the above note, I imagine all the lil towns that have analog repeaters (out in the gorge is an example 'round here) will still have a lot of viewers (?), ...an local Vancouver Tv/antenna installer/repairman told me he's "lost" in gettin folks set out there as sometimes he gets a better (antenna oreinted) analog signal playing the reflections and bounces of the current analog signal..wonder if the digital (if they happen) repeaters can do the job for rural America? Seems this is one place whre analog signals maybe need to live on (?)...tjoguh I prefer teh clean screeen of the digital the pixeling is a pain, and a lot of stations across teh U.S will need "more power" to xconvince the masses of OTA viewers, most of whom have terrible antenna systems for reception...

KORS has a couple weekend shows when it's rainin and nothing else is on . . . and some old B&W movies that I might want to see once during the week.

From 3:00 a.m. to 5:00 a.m. weekdays KOXI channel 16.3 has obscure "Classic Movies;" and from 10:30 a.m. to noon weekdays there are obscure westerns. The really obscure Gabby Hays (anthology) Show is found on Saturday morning from 4:30 a.m. to 5:00 a.m. Most of these films look like the stuff shown by local TV stations in the middle of the night back in the 1960s, and now America One has them. I've been recording these at EP (six hours per disc) with a Panasonic DMR-ES15 DVD recorder set up with a Zenith DTT901 CECB. The KOXI channel 16.3 audio quality improved briefly early Wednesday morning for Behind Office Doors (1931) but now its back to somewhat less pronounced clipping. The echo seems to be gone, but for how long?

I'm also recording a few things from KATU's THIS TV with a digital tuner equipped DMR-EZ17 DVD recorder. Most of the movies, originally filmed in widescreen, are shown in soft focus (an artistic way of saying "fuzzy picture") i.e., re-edited for 4:3 TVs as pan and scan narrowscreen versions. But where else might one watch Mr. Ed, Patty Duke or Bat Masterson?

KPDX filed an engineering STA yesterday, to continue running Channel 49 (analog) at half power. The filing says they have already filed a letter saying they were running at 1475kW and the part has not been received from the mfgr yet. Their website still says they are operating analog at full power, but the STA says they are currently at 1745 kW. I scanned, hoping with less interference I'd get digital, but still no luck on the ground floor.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101298544&formid=911&fac_num=35460

I get the 49.1 decently over here in Western Camas, and can keep it "locked" if I tune antenna exclusively to 49.1, with it tuned though to KORS, I expect to lose both 49.1 and 16.1 -4 when the winds pick up, been gettin KORS "ok" this week' cept when winds get over 20 mph...I think (KORS) they were off air (no wind but, almost no signal yesterday am), think I'm gonna wait till summer when all this transition settles down,, Then decide on suppplementing my OTA w/ Dish, Cable (Verizon?) or just OTA "if" I can finally get a lock on KORS/KPDX digital signals....time will tell...I'm surprised you can't get KPDX digital signal though...

I don't look at KORS or KPDX as essential channels, fortunately. But I didn't lose KORS Friday, it was actually an improved signal quality, compared to Thursday and today.

I got a message on my TiVo yesterday about KORS-DT being available on 16.1-4. Is this digital signal up? Where is it coming from? I did a scan but the TiVo couldn't find anything. I was guessing it was up on Sylvan.

> KORS-DT being available on 16.1-4. Is this digital signal up?

There is now a fourth subchannel:


Active PIDs in this stream
PID=0x0, ctrl_type=0x3=PAT, pkt_cnt=586
PID=0x30, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=146
PID=0x31, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=181633
PID=0x34, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=9137
PID=0x40, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=146
PID=0x41, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=181542
PID=0x44, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=9135
PID=0x50, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=146
PID=0x51, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=141381
PID=0x54, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=9137
PID=0x60, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=146
PID=0x61, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=141382
PID=0x64, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=9135
PID=0x1ffb, ctrl_type=0x5=ATSC, pkt_cnt=2521
PID=0x1fff, ctrl_type=0x14=NULL, pkt_cnt=76111
Stream contains 4 program(s).
Default program is 1.
Program 1: HSN
PID=0x31 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x34 Audio (Dolby AC-3)
Program 2: Bohemia
PID=0x41 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x44 Audio (Dolby AC-3)
Program 3: A1
PID=0x51 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x54 Audio (Dolby AC-3)
Program 4: Jewelry
PID=0x61 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x64 Audio (Dolby AC-3)

I got a message on my TiVo yesterday about KORS-DT being available on 16.1-4. Is this digital signal up? Where is it coming from? I did a scan but the TiVo couldn't find anything. I was guessing it was up on Sylvan.

Starting 2/16/09 I've been recording America One's obscure "classic movies" (3-5 a.m. weekdays) and even more obscure "westerns" (10:30-noon weekdays) from KOXI-DT on channel 16.3. The audio has severe clipping and echo. The folks at Watch TV need to work on their signal before they may become a real TV station. The transmitter is in one of the antenna farms near Skyline, line of sight and about five miles from my North Portland home. I'm using a RCA ANT115 attached to a Zenith DTT901 to feed the signal to a Panasonic DMR-ES15 DVD recorder.

When KOXI-LP was found on analog channel 20 there was lots of snow but I didn't notice problematic audio. For best reception I aimed my RCA ANT111 toward Camas. After a while I gave up trying to watch KOXI-LP on channel 20.

With the KOXI-DT audio problems it's not much better than before.

KORS DT-1 is simulcast of local analog channel 35 (HSN), 16.2 is "all music videos" of the BVM (occasionally a good watch!), 16.3 is simulcast of KOXI-CA channel 20 (analog) of "Camas", 16.4 is Jewelry TV (JTV) similar (affiliated ??) but, like HSN 24 hour shopping but, of jewelry...

All these 4 stations appear on my TV as "mono" 480 pic and mono sound only and being 16-17 miles (Eastern Vancouver/Western Camas at about 250 elevation and open spaces)...and LoS of x mitter, are "borderline" signal stength, often dropping out w/ rain, sometimes westerly winds and often w/ strong east winds,... I have a Weingard 1080 attic mounted antenna, "tuned/oriented" for "best" KORS reception which slightly degrades KGW, FOX and KPDX signals but, allows KORS to be received about 3/4~ time...

Even tuning my antenna to a northerly orientation barely improves Channel 20supposedly broadcasting from LoS w/in 7 miles of my home, the channel 20 signal, I've heard from Watch TV is "best" in/around "central/downtown" Portland!

My conversation w/ Watch Tv is another station will be coming aboard sometime "soon" but, not on channel 16, perhaps about/on channel 41 (?), in addition the KORS xmitter will be upgraded/replaced and broadcast from "higher up the pole" hopefully improving reception...

I imagine alll of this will be o/a June 12~ and after...

> All these 4 stations appear on my TV as analog sound only

Huh? Channel 16 is digital.

Last time I looked (when there were "only" 3 subchannels)
they were mono. All other local digital stations were
stereo or 5.1. Perhaps your TV reports mono as "analog"?

> I have a Weingard 1080 attic mounted antenna

It might work better in the trash can:

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/%7Ewn17/

Be sure to read page 2.

I have an analog Panny DVR with DTVPal CECB configured to convert digital TVGOS data for the analog DVR. This configuration started working about a month ago, but the channel lineup in the DVR contains only these stations: 2.1, 6.1, 8.1, 9.1, 10.1, 12.1, 13.1, 24.1, 49.1.

No subchannels and no 32.1. These missing stations can be directly tuned or programmed for timer recording on the DVR by punching in the (modified) station code, but are not included in the channel flipper and obviously no guide data is available (there is PSIP guide data for them in the DTVPal, but since DTVPal is in analog TVGOS mode, the access to it is blocked).

So my question is for those who have a digital TV set with real digital TVGOS (not PSIP) guide: Do you get program info for any subchannels (x.2 and so on) or the 32.1 CW channel?

I am trying to figure out if this is just a test phase or a permanent state of affairs. Mind you, I am quite happy that the TVGOS conversion works at all and allows me to extend the useful life of my analog DVR.

Thanks,
Alex

I think all stations have filed now.

KPXG (ION) has already shut down 12/3/08.

KNMT (religion) shuts off analog April 16 evening (6pm-midnight).

The 4 potential nightlights (KATU, KOIN, KNMT, KPDX) all said no.

June 12 analog shutdown:
KGW and KOPB - early morning (by 6 am)
KOIN, KPTV (Fox), KPDX (MyN), and KRCW - morning (6 am to noon)
KATU - afternoon (noon to 6 pm).

Flashcuts requiring rescans (KGW, KOPB, KPTV, and sequentially, KPDX) will be done by noon if all goes as planned.

Anyone notice Universal Sports on 32-2?

- Trip

Anyone notice Universal Sports on 32-2?

Nope, I don't see any subchannels on it.

I'm not sure if there's PSIP on it yet, but SiliconDust says it's there.

http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/lineupui?Cmd=LocationProgramsWeb&Country=US&Postcode=97209

- Trip

The dvbtraffic command says it isn't there.

Perhaps they were testing it for a brief period.

Either way, keep an eye out for it.

- Trip

What type of sports and programming does Universal Sports typically schedule/show? Any "news" of any other subchannels comin to the PDX stations? Like KOIN (6-2??) and Fox (12-2 or 49-2)??