I had the same problem a few days ago with goofy audio (center channel coming from left rear) on KATU and occasional "blips" on KOIN recently. I haven't heard anything from Lee lately. I suspect he is very busy right now.

Well, at least she knew what HDTV was, and I didn't even have to mention that I wasn't talking about digital cable. That's a step forward!

Definitely a step forward. The last time I had a rep from ATT BB on the phone, he kept telling me that they already had HDTV on both the analog and digital lineup. I kept saying HDTV and he kept hearing HGTV. Ha!

If they will provide more that 12Mb/s for HD (a reported cap by some TW subscribers) I’ll be subscribin.

Dave

I am pretty sure I'm going to be getting a used Samsung SIR-T150 in the next few days as part of my first foray into HDTV (lower cost to start), and I just found this forum today. I've been wading through all the posts, and noticed that this box has some incompatibilities with KATU's HDTV broadcasts. Has anyone had any luck correcting these problems with any of Samsung's firmware upgrades, or has KATU fixed the problem on their end (I know, that's wishful thinking...)?

Very informative thread, especially as specific as it is to the Portland area. Thanks to everyone who has contributed.

Originally posted by jcrunch
I am pretty sure I'm going to be getting a used Samsung SIR-T150 in the next few days as part of my first foray into HDTV (lower cost to start), and I just found this forum today. I've been wading through all the posts, and noticed that this box has some incompatibilities with KATU's HDTV broadcasts. Has anyone had any luck correcting these problems with any of Samsung's firmware upgrades, or has KATU fixed the problem on their end (I know, that's wishful thinking...)?

Very informative thread, especially as specific as it is to the Portland area. Thanks to everyone who has contributed.

I have the T150 as well and havent had too many problems with KATU. not anything to warrent not getting one at least. you definately need the latest firmware though.

steinfoot: What version of the firmware are you using, the 2.0, or the 1.8? Have you heard any more about the rumored 2.3 version?

I emailed Lee Wood the questions that recently we posed here about KOIN-DT's use of bandwidth, the excessive pixelization during recent special events, and about CBS's 5.1 surround sound.

Lee sent me this very detailed response, and let me post it here for everyone (thanks, Lee!):

Lee Wood, KOIN-DT
Let me address your comments and questions in reverse order.


Concerning the Bruce Springstein special - we did not know in advance that it was going to be in High Definition. None of the CBS web sites, public or internal, had it listed as being in HDTV. Even Dale Cripps 'HDTV Magazine' HDTV Program Guide was caught by this. If we had known, and based on what we learned from the Grammys broadcast, we would have allocated more bandwidth to the program.


As for the Grammys - this was the first type of live event CBS has broadcast outside of sporting events. What we learned from this is that live special event programs need to be treated much as we treat live sports where more or all of the DTV bandwidth is allocated to the event. We try to balance the quality of service of the DTV channel with the content of the program and the capabilities of our equipment. The Grammys taught us a new lesson.


Concerning Grammys DD5.1 Audio - CBS only gave the affiliates 4 weeks notice that the Grammys were going to be their first 5.1 broadcast and even though KOIN was on the list of stations that was supposed to receive one of the new model of network satellite receivers with DD5.1 capability KOIN did not receive one. As a result there was no 5.1 audio to pass through. We still have not received one of the new network satellite receivers.


Concerning 5.1 Audio in General - The CBS satellite system has used DD2.0 AC-3 audio distribution since the beginning. Up until 4 weeks before the Grammys stations had been led to believe that DD5.1 audio was going to be distributed using an AC-3 stream as well. That would have permitted KOIN to directly pass it through. Unfortunately, CBS - as of the Grammy announcement - has elected to change the method of audio delivery to the newer Dolby-E encoding system, which delivers the 6 discreet channels of audio and requires the affiliate to provide the equipment to decode the Dolby-E signal, switch it with the local audio channels and re-encode it as Dolby AC-3 Audio. KOIN does not have any of this equipment since we didn't even know it would needed (the ABC and Fox affiliated DTV stations in our company do have the equipment and I tried to borrow some for the Grammys, but could not find anyone who didn't have the equipment already in service). To top it off, the CBS announcement came after the capital spending budgets for our company had already been submitted. We are pursuing exactly what steps will be needed to handle the DD5.1 signal from CBS, integrate it with local audio and broadcast it. Preliminary analysis indicates it may cost as much as $40,000 to do this. We will continue to develop a plan to add DD5.1 capability as soon as possible, but we don't know if it will be within this budget year.


Concerning Multicasting - The Standard Definition service on 6-2 is used by many viewers to avoid image burn-in on their DTV receivers or display equipment. Many models of equipment 'lock' the aspect ratio when an HDTV channel is tuned to. This means owners of 16:9 displays cannot eliminate the black side-panels during upconverted programming and owners of 4:3 displays cannot eliminate the letterbox or black sidepanels. By changing to 6-2 they have full control of the aspect ratio and can zoom, stretch or crop the picture as they prefer and avoid the damage to their equipment. The weather cameras on 6-3 are very low resolution, as you noted, and if you read further you'll see that they do not impact the overall quality of normal programming. We also provided a multicast after the 9/11 attack that included KOIN programming, continuing CBS Network coverage and the local WCBS, New York coverage. There is no reason multicasting cannot be a valuable use of the DTV bandwidth as valuable content is available.


Concerning Bandwidth Allocation in General - The equipment KOIN-DT uses for digital compression is not the same as KGW-DT uses. Before coming on the air in December, 1999 and during the first 4 months of operation we ran our present compression equipment side-by-side with the same equipment KGW is using. The maker of the KOIN equipment had been in the digital video compression almost ten years longer than the competitor. The conclusion of those tests was that the equipment we have can provide the same level of quality in 11 MB that the KGW equipment requires a minimum of 14 MB to provide (the numbers are rounded because the two systems handle overhead system information data differently, our equipment includes it with the video stream figure, KGW's equipment does not). We viewed this as important because in high demand programming, such as live sports, we would have more 'headroom' (and better quality) with our equipment than the competitor.


As a regular viewer you are likely aware that for the normal CBS programming the bandwidth allocation is adequate. In monitoring the actual usage of bandwidth rarely does regular programming use the entire 11 MB. Generally HDTV program usage runs between 9 and 10.5 MB and can fall as low as 7 MB, depending on content. Even when the entire bandwidth is allocated to the HDTV service these figures do not change. The system will not use more bandwidth than is necessary to provide a properly MPEG-2 compressed ATSC signal, it will just leave the unused capacity empty. Also as a regular viewer you are probably aware that we change the bandwidth devoted to the HDTV service as programming requirements change.


While we are still in the very early stages of the DTV conversion (fewer than 5,000 of the 1,061,080 Portland TV households can receive the local DTV stations), now is the time to determine what the technology is capable of and to learn from that experience. This is why KOIN-DT provides the full ATSC PSIP Electronic Program Guide while other local stations do not. KOIN-DT has also been the first station to pass DTV Closed Captions (starting in the Summer of 2000) and Descriptive Video sound (starting in the Fall of 2002) for hearing and visually impaired viewers. KOIN-DT is one of five stations that for the last three years have provided a multicast of three simultaneous games from different regions during the NCAA basketball playoffs, we will again this year (but we will also be studying mixing HD and SD regional games this year). We want to use the available bandwidth to provide the most value to the viewers. We have even done some preliminary experiments with datacasting using only the bandwidth that the TV programs do not use on an instantaneous basis. This provided an average of 1.5 MB of data capacity without affecting programming by using only the bits the programming did not occupy.


Do we push the bubble on occasion, yes. Do we learn from that, definitely yes. The long term goal is to provide the marketplace with programming and services that the viewers will find valuable. That is not only HDTV, though that is the primary service. We don't want to overlook new opportunities, but at the same time we don't want to sacrifice HDTV quality either. We will continue to learn and apply the knowledge gained.

****************************
Lee A. Wood
Director of Engineering
KOIN-TV / KOIN-DT
222 SW Columbia St.
Portland, OR 97201

WOW!

Thank you Lee (and Jim) for listening and being so on the ball. You are a great asset to us!

I agree that for most (film based) HD content the bandwidth for KOIN is apparently ‘adequate’. But for the HD video based stuff and sports, No. I think even the 2Mb/s traffic cam or 1.5Mb/S datacasting does (would) impact that. I have experience with 20, 30, 40 and 50Mb/s transport streams encoded on state of the art encoders. (I can't tell you which encoders but the well-respected Turner Engineering did the encoding) I could easily notice the difference up to about 30Mb/s.

I’m also not sure about the burn in issue and the advantage of 4:3 SD feed. I know the best thing to avoid any burn in for me would be all HD all the time :D but I’m biased.
I think the burn in fear is over-rated unless you have a plasma or CRT set to etch mode. Then even logo bugs can be a potential issue. Microdisplay based system are getting more popular and plasmas are increasingly offering an orbit option so this is hopefully an ever-decreasing problem. Except for maybe airports and casinos.

Thanks again. I look forward to even greater HD programming from KOIN.

And oh yea, monitoring AVS forum would have given you a heads up that Bruce was going to be in HD.

Dave

If you call 1800Comcast you can ask for the HDTV specialists and they actually know what you are talking about and will transfer you to that dep't. When I called last week they didn't have any definite time frame, but thought it would be offered in Portland by summer. Who knows. Can't hurt however if they get a lot of calls expressing interest in HD

I agree with Michael. If you even have the slightest interest in HD on cable (or just want to help those who do), give Comcast a call and ask for it.

Personally, my basic cable looks so bad (and my OTA looks so good) that I probably won't bite when it comes to Comcast HD cable. No doubt they'll raise the rates and sat/OTA will become a better option. I just called to make sure the option is there. :)

BB

Originally posted by jcrunch
steinfoot: What version of the firmware are you using, the 2.0, or the 1.8? Have you heard any more about the rumored 2.3 version?

I have v1.8
havent heard anything on 2.3 version.

Concerning Grammys DD5.1 Audio - ...even though KOIN was on the list of stations that was supposed to receive one of the new model of network satellite receivers with DD5.1 capability KOIN did not receive one... We still have not received one.... To top it off, the CBS announcement came after the capital spending budgets for our company had already been submitted..... We will continue to develop a plan to add DD5.1 capability as soon as possible, but we don't know if it will be within this budget year.That is a real downer :(.
Concerning Multicasting - The Standard Definition service on 6-2 is used by many viewers to avoid image burn-in on their DTV receivers or display equipment.... By changing to 6-2 they have full control of the aspect ratio and can zoom, stretch or crop the picture as they prefer and avoid the damage to their equipment.Correct me if I'm wrong here but why can't they just watch 6-1 in SD via S-Video output? They'd get at least as good a picture and they could manipulate it to their hearts content. I can see a possible argument for multicasting different feeds but I don't understand the reason to multicast duplicate content.
Concerning Bandwidth Allocation in General - The equipment KOIN-DT uses for digital compression is not the same as KGW-DT uses.... We viewed this as important because in high demand programming, such as live sports, we would have more 'headroom' (and better quality) with our equipment than the competitor..... As a regular viewer you are likely aware that for the normal CBS programming the bandwidth allocation is adequate.Lee, it's nice that you have more efficent equipment than KGW but unfortunately in this case it just means that KGW is even worse than KOIN. I am a regular viewer of KOIN and I'm here to tell you that for "normal CBS programming" the HD feed is not getting enough bandwidth as you feel. Watch the opening of CSI. Watch just about any desolve of screen graphics. There is lots of pixelation evident on everyday programming.
While we are still in the very early stages of the DTV conversion (fewer than 5,000 of the 1,061,080 Portland TV households can receive the local DTV stations), now is the time to determine what the technology is capable of and to learn from that experience.... Do we push the bubble on occasion, yes. Do we learn from that, definitely yes. The long term goal is to provide the marketplace with programming and services that the viewers will find valuable. That is not only HDTV, though that is the primary service. We don't want to overlook new opportunities, but at the same time we don't want to sacrifice HDTV quality either. We will continue to learn and apply the knowledge gained.I think we all truly appreciate KOIN's, and in particular your, efforts in this transition Lee. You are pioneers and the best of the bunch in PDX. As you say though, it's a time to experiment and learn from the results. I think everybody here agrees that with the current generation of equipment in use and 6-2 sucking up the bandwidth, your HD feed is suffering.

ron

I have to say that, on a positive note, I haven't noticed any significant problems with the HD on KOIN for normal programming. And I thought the sound on the Grammys was really good, even if it wasn't 5.1 (I don't have a rear center-channel anyway).

The Springsteen concert was just a really odd thing. It had heavy pixellation anything there was much motion at all, and the audio was muffled. It wasn't like the occasional pixellation and generally good sound at the Grammys. I can understand how KOIN could have been taken by surprise on this one, given how poorly it was advertised.

Its been the special events are where things have been going awry, and that probably has a lot to do with the fact that CBS is doing a lot more than other stations in this regard. It just seems like any "manual switch" process will always be a bit problematic.

Thanks for listening and putting up with our gripes, Lee. I had meant to contact the Director of Engineering to bring up these issues, but apparently I didn't have to. :)

BB

I never understood the point of multicasting. First off, at this point in the life of HDTV, I dont think there are any people out there who bought a $500 HD tuner in order to watch the SD- feed on 6-2. Second off, as pointed out by ron, even if they didnt have an HD capable device, all HD tuners have a 480i setting and must be able to down convert HD signals.

So, what exactly is the point of wasting bandwidth on an SD feed? Why would anyone choose to watch it? Why must we suffer with bad pixelization?

I agree. The only problem for me is on a Samsung 151 the switch for output mode is on the back of the receiver only and it's a pain to switch manually.

So, what exactly is the point of wasting bandwidth on an SD feed? Why would anyone choose to watch it? Why must we suffer with bad pixelization?

Count me as another of those that is confused by this approach. With all of the options available to the consumer in terms of outputs, display choices, etc. why not work to provide the best HD experience as the first priority?

I theorize that a clearly differentiated digital HD experience would spur the adoption and purchase on HD equipment far moreso than a digital channel experience that looks and feels alot like what they get now. It's also confusing and in evidence I relate my girlfriend's first browse through my channel listings two months ago...

<click on Channel 6> "That's the normal channel, right"?
<click up to Channel 6.1> "That's HD? That looks the same!"
<brief conversation about multi-castings>
<click to Channel 6.2> "Oh COOL...why isn't THIS channel 6.1, it looks so clearer and bigger!"

Just food for thought...

Originally posted by poweda
I agree. The only problem for me is on a Samsung 151 the switch for output mode is on the back of the receiver only and it's a pain to switch manually. Many people hook the s-video to another input on their TV. This is especially good with the Samsung since it has the s-video always on. Then you can have that input use the TV's stretch modes. The only issue is sound (only one pair of RCA jacks on the Sammy, but now you're using two inputs on the TV); I just use an RCA splitter and it works fine since I'm always going into the TV in either case. But this may vary from one TV to another.

This also works on 6-1 (as well as any HD channel), hence the question of why to have a 6-2. If SD-only receivers become available it might make sense, but so far there haven't even been any announcements of such things.

BB

I wasn't aware the s-video jack was always on (downconverted to 480i). I had assumed you had to move the switch to 480i in order for that to work. If thats the case I'm golden 'cause I use the optical digital to my receiver and can run s-vid straight to the TV for picture. I'll try it tonight!

I was in Best Buy on Fri and they had the WB 15-1 playing on a Samsung Sir-T151. Went home and tried to tune it in but was unable to. Anyone have any luck? What tower is it broadcast from? I thought is was going to be broadcast from an existing tower on Sylvan and if so, I should be able to tune it in. The only station I have trouble with is FOX.

For those of you looking into HD on cable, remember that you only have to have Basic cable to get the HD feeds. Do not let them wring your wallet and tell you that you must subscribe to any digital tiers, this is BS, pure and simple.

Your opinion, please..... I live in East Vancouver, WA, and recently purchased a Samsung SIR-T165 and a Terk TV-55 amplified outdoor/indoor antenna. My plan is to connect the antenna coax to my Monster HTS-5100 power conditioner, then coax to the Samsung, then component coax to my Pioneer 49TXi receiver, then component coax to the Sanyo PLV-70 projector. Does this connection plan have any problems I overlooked?

Second, I want to place the antenna in my attic space. Is this acceptable (will it work)?

Thanks. As you no doubt guessed, I'm an OTA newbe.

Professor,

There should be no general problems with what you propose. I have done the same thing except I have a Sony DA5ES recvr, a Monster HT2100, and a Sony HD RPTV. The antenna may or may not work depending on exactly where you are located. I'm on the backside of Maplecrest and partially blocked by the hill (I'm almost at Lacamas creek level).

I have a 110" directional antenna with a Channel Master preamp (19db UHF boost) mounted in my attic and I have trouble getting FOX most of the time and OPB & UPN is hit or miss. FOX and OPB both run at under 750kw, as opposed to KOIN (839kw), KGW (960kw) and KATU (1000kw). I believe that an attic install cuts 10db or more from the signal depending on roof composition.

Where in East Vancouver are you?

Poweda,

Thanks for your input.

I live close to Evergreen HS, in the First Place development. ... 18th Ave and 148th Street.

A tile roof (looks a little like a slate roof)... it's a custom home with a dedicated HT. Nothing blocking, save a few trees, my direct line-of-sight to the broadcasting towers in the West Hills (at least I think this is true).

Neal (Professor)

Professor,
I can second what Poweda said. I use a Radio Shack VU-75XR antenna mounted in my attic, and have no trouble picking up FOX, UPN, OPB, ABC, CBS and NBC. I guess I should consider myself lucky because I have no bad reception issues to report. The Samsung sirt-165 works great with my Sony HS-10 using DVI or component.

Poweda,
I just did a rescan and did not pick up the WB 15-1. I didn't know that they had started digital broadcasting yet. Anyone else have any luck?

Thanks
Kenny

I tried scanning for new digital stations last night and could not find it either. I just checked 100000watts.com and they show WB assigned to channel 33.

Very strange,

I'll have to go back to BB on Airport way and ask them whats going on. At first I thought it was a recorded loop but I hit the info button on the T151 and it displayed 15-1 on all the HD sets in the store showing that program. Very odd!

I too checked 100000watts and they show the WB on 33 but not until July. It will come from the same tower that KOIN and KATU uses. PAX is listed to start broadcast on May 1st.

Hotwire,

Where are you in Vancouver? Is FOX always strong for you? I'm thinking I might have to resort to a roof top to consistently get FOX.

Poweda,

I am South of Ward road, just off 162nd. I bought a Radio Shack double bow-tie antenna when I heard that they were being discontinued. When my Samsung stb arrived I thought, well I'll just try the the antenna I have now (the VU-75 XR), since I have pretty good reception with it.

Hooked up the stb, did a channel scan and everything came in on the first shot without any tweaking. Have not tried the double bow-tie antenna yet because the combo I have now (VU-75 XR and a RCA preamp) work good. Maybe this weekend I'll try the double bow-tie and see if anything is better or worse.

As for the question about FOX always being strong, I have only had the Samsung sirt-165 about two weeks now, but in that time I have had no reception issues. A quick check of my signal strength meter shows it about three-quarters from maxed out.

Hope this helps,
Kenny

Has anything changed with UPN? After I moved at the first of the year, I adjusted my antenna so I got a really strong signal from all channels but now when I tune into UPN I get a fluctuating signal from 0 to 60% and it takes about 20 seconds to lock on. Once it's locked it's ok. Fox gives me a 97%, CBS, NBC, ABC in the 90's and OPB in the 70's.

I'm using a Dish 6000 with a Rat Shack Yagi.

Hi All,

I am in hillsboro area and am having troubles with reception of KATU (Channel 2, ABC broadcast). All other channels (8, 10, 30, 42 and 49) come great and looks fine.

I have Dish 6000 with 8VSB and 8PSK. The picture on Channel 2 looks blurry and has ghost image. I get about 77% signal and the signal locks in pretty instantly, but the ghosty and blurry image stays forever.

Does anyone else have this problem? Any work around?

Osho

Have you tried adjusting the screen image? I can't remember the sequence, but when you are in the HDTV Setup menu, there is an ADJUST option. When you select this, you will be taken back to a live screen and you can use the remotes up/down/left/right buttons to adjust the image. Hit Select when your're done.

Osho,

I am having the same problem with KATU. I first noticed it almost two weeks ago, when they had the center audio channel coming out of the left rear speaker.

Now, the audio is OK, but the picture is totally messed up...almost looks like the image has thick interlaced lines, with blurring.

I have a Dish 6000, also. All other HDTV channels look really good, but KATU is hard to watch. I sent an email off to KATU and the response was "ABC may have fouled up.. I'll blame them first and
check out our system next."

Hope others, without the 6000, are experiencing this.

"Hope others, without the 6000, are experiencing this."

I have Toshiba DST. and KATU looks fine. Maybe Dish 6K issue?

Looks fine to me too (D*/Mits receiver). Ghosting and blurry? Almost sounds like the analog channel...

ron

"Almost sounds like the analog channel.."

You know, it's funny, but since I moved to Woodburn, my OTA Analog channels are the best I have ever seen. They look much better than the locals off Dish network.

I'll have to tune in KATU tonight with my 6000 and see what results I get. I usually only watch Alias on ABC and I didn't catch it live last week.

The problem on KATU is for channel 002-1, definitely not the analog channel.

I was watching Alias (in HDTV) two Sundays ago when I first noticed it. It was pretty bad when compared to the normal viewing of Alias.

Did Dish update the software? How would I know if that has happened recently? If so, who would I contact at Dish that might actually understand the issue? Is there any decent contacts at KATU?

By the way, I'm in Salem and am receiving a signal strength of about 88%.

I have had this unit for over a year and have never experienced anything like this before.

LunarSkrag, I know the issue is with Digital and not Analog, I was just commenting on how much better the OTA Analog channels are than Dish networks broadcast of the Portland locals.

I checked ABC last night and it looked ok but it was not a HD program. I'll try again later.

I watched Frequency on KATU last night and it was fine, was it still fuzzy for anyone else with a Dish 6000? If so, have you tried the Adjust?

This appears to be a fairly old program (~1999), but "Living Edens:Thailand, Jewel of the Orient" is scheduled in HD on OPB for 8:00pm Monday.

I've never seen it, and it sounds like it could be some real eye candy. I thought it might be a misprint except that ptvdigital.org shows it as being HD.

BB

Lunarskrag, glad to know that someone else with Dish 6000 can duplicate this problem.

I changed Dish 6000 setting under HDTV setup to send out 720p instead of 1080i. When I select 720p, this problem goes away and 002-1 (KATU) is displayed fine. If I select 1080i then the picture is all screwed up. I think only ABC broadcasts natively in 720p (please correct me if I am wrong).

This leads me to believe that the problem is in the 720p to 1080i converter within Dish 6000. Since, this used to work fine before. I guess some software update screwed up this conversion. Lunarskrag, could you please try to switch to 720p in Dish 6000's HDTV Setup and see if this problem goes away. If your HDTV does not support 720p, you can connect a regular computer monitor to Dish 6000's RGB output and try it with that.

Marissadad, this problem is not something that can be fixed with Adjust button as all other HD channels (OTA and HBOHD/SHOHD/DISCHD) look fine.

I think I am gonna call Dish tech support and explain them the problem. Wish me good luck :).

thanks,
Osho

Marissadad, I should correct myself. I actually solved this problem by using the Adjust button. and moving the picture around.

I noticed the picture carefully and saw that the picture looked ghosty because there were two interlaced images which were not directly on top of each other (must be a bug in Dish 6000's progressive to interlace convertor). The picture looked as if the second interlaced image was an inch right to the first one. This made the picture looked ghosty and wavy.

I used the Adjust from HDTV menu and moved the image right. As I moved the image right, the difference between the two interlaced images seemed to become smaller and smaller until when they were on top of each other and the picture looked great :).

I guess Dish 6000 software has a bug that manifests when Adjustment is way too left or right and progressive to interlaced conversion is used.

thanks,
Osho

Hello,

A few days ago Marissadad posted, "For those of you looking into HD on cable, remember that you only have to have Basic cable to get the HD feeds. Do not let them wring your wallet and tell you that you must subscribe to any digital tiers, this is BS, pure and simple."

I am waiting for HD on Comcast since I can only get KGW OTA and am not interested in sattelite receivers. I find it hard to believe Comcast is going to make HD available for Basic Cable subscibers without extra charges. Marissadad are you sure about this? Does anyone know what Comcast is doing in other areas where they have HD available?

Thanks,

Dennis,

Take a look at this (www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=188007) sticky thread at the top of the Local Forum. It's been a while since I looked at it but IIRC there was some good info about comcast and cable HD in general. I believe what Marissadad was referring to was that there is some regulation on the books somewhere that says something to the effect that anything provided gratis OTA cannot be charged for by other providers (something like that anyway). Best I can recall others are just paying for the receiver rental and a minor charge for the "service" ($5-12 or so?).

ron

Anyone else unable to get PBS yesterday? Wondering if it is a blip with the station or my E*6K. Thanks.

Originally posted by TMBUTCH
Anyone else unable to get PBS yesterday? Wondering if it is a blip with the station or my E*6K. Thanks. My Zenith STB was picking it up on 27-1, the actual UHF channel.

BB

My 6000 remapped to 27-1, showed a signal of 82%, froze and then tuned to 10-00 the analog channel and it was blank. I tried several times throughout the day with the same results.

Who else had problems with KOIN's PSIP while they screwed around with the channels the last few days? My 6000 would show all 3 sub channels but only 6-1 was active. When I tried to change to 6-2 or 6-3 to see if another game was being shown, it would remap to 40-1.

Yesterday it was OK with 3 games going, but they looked like crap. Whenever KOIN or KGW shows a game in SD I always switch to my 27" Analog TV and tune in off the air, the picture looks much better. The Blazer game last night was horrible on KGW but looked great Analog.

PBS is also remapped to 27-1 on my 6000. When I try to switch to it, I just get a blank screen and then it switches to KGW-D. KGW-D is the next entry in my list.

Cris

Thanks Lee/KOIN for not multicasting during the NCAA BB today. It looked much better than I recall last year.

Dave

Anyone else noticing a pretty severe chroma delay in KATU-DT these days? It looks like about 4 pixels, and I cannot believe it's coming from the network that way. Here's an image I captured during the Oscars. Notice that the chroma delay is actually larger than Jennifer Garner's dress straps.

I am using a MyHD HDTV card, but I have seen this on more than one system.

UPDATE: It appears to be fairly common across the country. See this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2023050

I saw it too, Rob, but I thought it was the lighting.

OK...what the heck is going on with PBS?! Anyone?

I thought I had a pretty critical eye but I didn't notice the chroma delay last night.

OPB was back up last night, I watched Ansel Adams without a hitch.

The PQ was the least of the problems to me. That audio was a mess. I was assuming it was KATU (naturally :D) until I read the AA thread in the HD forum. I could swear I flipped by 2-1 briefly Friday night and encountered the same no-center-channel audio from their 5.1 stream and just figured it was their equipment acting up some more. I remember thinking/hoping at the time it wouldn't still be a problem by the time of the AA on Sunday. Did anybody else happen to notice that? I don't usually watch much ABC but I did a little last night waiting for Miracles to come on (preempted by a double shot of The Practice despite what showed in the guide :() and the center channel seemed to be back in order but there were numerous audio dropouts and some video freeze ups as well. Not sure if those were my reception or station probs. Anybody else?

ron

Ron, during the AA I experienced many video/audio glitches but attributed it to my reception. I normally have a very strong signal strength, but for some reason I was fluctuating around 75% that evening.

I did not have any issues with the center channel going back to the left surround, but there were many audio dropouts and video freezeups and pixelations.

Marissadad,

So you're saying you were getting a good strong center channel during the AA then? As a large percentage of people reported in the HD forum thread, my center channel was next to nonexistant. I had to crank the center all the way up to the max to make it sound half way decent (I've got my front mains spaced pretty far apart because of a door right next to the TV). There didn't seem to be much if any surround either, mostly just the front left and right channels on a 5.1 stream.

ron

My sound was fine, all the vocals were coming from the center channel. I even stood up and checked the rear surrounds and they had some ambient noise coming from them. I didn't have any audio issues except for the occassional dropout.

Hmmm. That is very strange then. Sounds just like the widely varying experiences reported in the AA thread except that we're receiving from the same affiliate. I wonder what the heck causes something like that. It must have something to do with the way our different receivers handle the audio. Since it's usually not a problem I wonder if ABC was using some different kind of Dolby transmission than the usual format to send the signal or something then? Weird.

ron

That is weird, Ron, I went over and read the Official AA forum after you mentioned it above and it didn't seem like a National issue, but more localized and equipment specific to different affiliates.

I did have the weird center channel problem a few weeks ago and I sent an email to Alan at KATU and the problem went away but I never heard back from him on what the problem was.

Did anyone with a Dish 6000 have a center channel issue with the Academy Awards?

Any HDTV owners in the Coastal Range West of Yamhill receiving locals?

I am trying to decide if HDTV will work for me 8 miles west of Yamhill? With a 14' rooftop antenna (35' up and amplified in the house) I am currently able to receive most of the Portland locals (except 32) without too much static or ghosting. What do people think my odds are with a HD receiver?

I would probably be getting a HD DirectTV receiver so at least I would gain HBO and SHO HD even if the locals don't work.

AA center channel came in fine for me here in Vancouver, WA on an SIR-T150.

Well... I still had my usual need to cycle power every 30-45 minutes to receive KATU audio -- but when the audio did come in, it came in perfect. (The SIR-T150 has had consistent trouble locking onto KATU's audio since December'ish 2002. Before then all was great.)

Erik

p.s. oh, just remembered, I did have the occasional audio blink-outs I've read about during the show, but very few.

Paul, if you are getting a fairly decent signal with Analog, you should be OK with the digital. You could always buy a standalone STB from somewhere that has a 30 day return policy to try it out.

No audio on 6-1 for NCAA BBall ??

I also have no audio on KOIN.

Hey everybody,

Make sure to post your comments about the games (good and bad) in this thread (www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=242662) in the HD Programming Forum. CBS Central is going to be reviewing it for feedback so be sure to include the station call letters and city in your posts. This would be a good time to complain about multicasting and pixelation if you see any and don't like it. Perhaps we can get CBS to see that it shouldn't be done during HD sports. You could also complain that CBS didn't send a nice new 5.1 encoder to KOIN as well ;). Enjoy the games.

ron

Watched some of Shanghai Noon on Koin yesterday. For the first time really noted the pixelation on the rapid movements, especially the fight scenes. If this is due to the lower bitrate from multicasting, then I have to add to the concern that the extra digital channels are taking away from the HD experience.
Even she who must be obeyed, who usually just humors me on HD wondered why it got "fuzzy" so often

OK, KOIN has officially pissed me off way too many times. I just want to thank them for ruining what would have been a great broadcast of shanghai noon in HD, by multicasting it on both 6-2 and 6-3. what a grand waste of bandwidth. There was more pixelization on the presentation last night than on a divx encoded MPEG movie. If KOIN doesnt stop wasting HD bandwidth I am going to personally make a trip to their office and give them a piece of my mind.

Am I the only one angry at KOIN?

Well I finally got my system set up. A friend gave me a big multi-directional antenna, it had a box on the antenna and a separate pre amp. The one on the antenna didn't work and seemed to block everything. The pre amp didn't seem to add anything. Now the question is after all of my reading about direction and setup. I still can't seem to get 22 kpxg PAX, 32 kwbp WB, & 24 knmt TBN. I can get all the others OK but not real great. I have been watching analog with a set of rabbit ears for years and can even get some of the digital with them (but not very well). I live east of Corbett about 25 miles from the transmitters and they are all within a degree of each other according to the compass charts, and I am up on a hill. Are those stations up with DTV and just transmitting a low signal. I also don't get a real strong signal on any of them, 2 (katu ABC)especially is weak. I am using a Samsung SIR151.

What time was Shanghai Noon on? I'm not sure of the proper terminology but when they shut down the traffic cam for sports they usually map the SD feed to both 6-2 and 6-3 so it shouldn't be using any additional bandwidth (same feed just mapped to two channel slots). Didn't get to watch any of the HD games Friday but did watch the Texas/Michigan St. game yesterday and as usual they shut down the traffic cam. I had checked in earlier during the beginning of the first game and was glad I did because there was no audio! Called up and talked to a lady in master control and she said she didn't know how to fix it but she would make some calls to get ahold of someone who did. Apparently she reached somebody in the know because when I checked in a little later it was back up. With the traffic cam off the pixelation is not horrendous but still a distraction during screen graphic disolves and when ever something flashes across the camera up fairly close and "surprises" the mpeg averaging.

ron

Originally posted by R11
What time was Shanghai Noon on? I'm not sure of the proper terminology but when they shut down the traffic cam for sports they usually map the SD feed to both 6-2 and 6-3 so it shouldn't be using any additional bandwidth (same feed just mapped to two channel slots).

ron

hmm, if that is true, then why does KOIN look soo much worse than KGW and KATU? Do they just need to upgrade some of there equipment that does the compression?

Well, KATU does do things differently with only one feed period. I really wish the others would follow suit (kind of ironic too, seeing as they are the only one who does 720p which could probably actually support an additional SD channel with no problems....). With KGW I see similar pixelation as KOIN. I think even worse on their SD feed. They don't ever further divide their bandwidth for a traffic cam or anything but IIRC Lee Wood has said KGW's equipment was not quite as efficient or something so they end up being pretty close in the end result.

ron

Ron, do you know what the solution is for the pixelization issue at KOIN?

Originally posted by tibia
Hello,

A few days ago Marissadad posted, "For those of you looking into HD on cable, remember that you only have to have Basic cable to get the HD feeds. Do not let them wring your wallet and tell you that you must subscribe to any digital tiers, this is BS, pure and simple."


Here are some links, I got them via Dale Cripps HDTV Magazine today:

http://www.nbc4.com/consumer/1986093/detail.html

http://www.madison.com/captimes/business/stories/39238.php

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/nov2002/tc2002116_0167.htm

http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/living/howard/2002/120502.html

Easy. Don't multicast :). It seems that given the current equipment and state of mpeg compression the most demanding 1080i needs the full bit rate allocated to the stations to provide a compression/motion artifact free picture. I think eventually the equipment will get more efficient and the compression algorithims will get better so it will become less of an issue. But for now....

ron

I have a Dish 6000 and when I watch a movie, I get a lot of jerkiness which look almost like time compression. I know the local digitals are not doing this but when there is lateral movement, the picture seems to jump a frame every 1/2 second or so. It doesn't matter if I watch in HD, SD, 1080i, 720p or downconverted to NTSC.

I am going to borrow a friend's 8vsb mod to see if maybe mine is flakey, but I have seen this effect ever since I got my 6000 (over 2 years ago). Anyone else ever see this? Am I hallucinating? It's driving me nuts.

Last night watching The Kid on KATU the jumpiness was very obvious. The Engineer at KATU last night was really having a Brainfart. With about 20 minutes left in the show, they kicked in the ABC Engineering HD Test Feed.

Originally posted by R11
Easy. Don't multicast :). It seems that given the current equipment and state of mpeg compression the most demanding 1080i needs the full bit rate allocated to the stations to provide a compression/motion artifact free picture. I think eventually the equipment will get more efficient and the compression algorithims will get better so it will become less of an issue. But for now....

ron

Yea, thats what I thought! :D do we all need to sign a petition to stop mulitcasting??

What was the problem with KGW HD last night? The sound on American Dreams was unintelligible. It was OK on the SD channel. Seemed to clear up for Law and Order and Boomtown.

Steve

Originally posted by steinfoot
OK, KOIN has officially pissed me off way too many times. I just want to thank them for ruining what would have been a great broadcast of shanghai noon in HD, by multicasting it on both 6-2 and 6-3. what a grand waste of bandwidth. There was more pixelization on the presentation last night than on a divx encoded MPEG movie. If KOIN doesnt stop wasting HD bandwidth I am going to personally make a trip to their office and give them a piece of my mind.

Am I the only one angry at KOIN?
No, you're not the only one.

The response from Lee Wood I posted earlier makes it plain to me that Lee/KOIN sincerely believes that multi-casting HDTV and SDTV is the best way to provide digital OTA video.

Lee's explanation centers on the need to avoid monitor burn-in, and that's why they use so much bandwidth to provide the standard-def version of their signal.

Lee also clearly believes that the pixelization is either minor or accidental.

See this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=1956830#post1956830) rather than rely on my interpretations.

Personally, I think that KATU does it (mostly) right. I've never seen any bothersome pixelization on KATU-DT, but almost always do on KOIN. It really fries me when KOIN's "hi-def" signal looks worse (is more distracting) than their standard-def picture while it is so easily fixed (by not multicasting).

I bet if Lee asked a resprentative sampling of the Portland HDTV users he'd be told the same thing.

Lee hasn't participated in this forum for some time now.

I've been lurking in this thread ever since I got my Sony 57XBR2 back in January.

I'll start off with, when HD is being broadcast, it is generally very good on KGW, KATU, KOBP, KOIN, and FOX. I even like that sometimes we get an earlier feed on Fox of some programs.

But there are nits, and I am not sure if it's me or the broadcast stations:

- Saturday and Sunday, KOIN or my tuner glitched such that I had to keep relecting the channel; jumping from 6 to 40 back to 6 again; each time getting a dialog on the screen that told me to confirm or exit; sems to happen during a program change

- I occasionally get a few red dots or pixels in the middle of the screen as well as sometimes within the black bars to left or right of the picture; have not seen these red dots on any of the other HD channels

- I've experienced the audio dropouts, but these are not unique to KOIN. sometimes also happens on the DirecTV satellite premium channels. Just another engineer/technician asleep in the control room, or perhaps watching another channel. I thought they had alarms for these kinds of mistakes.

Last a request:
- KGW's programming loops during the day are quite nice; time for a little variety, though!

I don't watch too much HD yet, due to my reliance on my TiVo for most viewing. Someday there will be an HDTiVo!

Surprised the stations don't run occasional Public Service Announcements stating they are still experimenting with HD.

Mike

I'll have to agree with the shared frustration.

My initial exuberence with KOIN has definitely be tempered as of late.

Lee - The pixelation is noticeably bad and often.

Lee,

While you are addressing everyones woes, is there any news regarding the PSIP signals that prevent recording KOIN 6-1 via the Samsung SIR-T165? The fix is too late for most of the NCAA BBall but with the Masters 2 weeks away I have to ask.

I want to chime in that I all but given up watching Koin altogether, because of it's dubious multicasting practice. Koin's 10Mbs is well below 15Mbps which many considered EDTV. Last night's Shanghai Noon is totally unwatchable - worst than NTSC duing the fighting scenes I might add.

Originally posted by Lipout
Lee,

While you are addressing everyones woes, is there any news regarding the PSIP signals that prevent recording KOIN 6-1 via the Samsung SIR-T165? The fix is too late for most of the NCAA BBall but with the Masters 2 weeks away I have to ask.
If you want to contact Lee Wood at KOIN, you'll need to email him; he isn't monitoring this forum.

Originally posted by JimProuty
If you want to contact Lee Wood at KOIN, you'll need to email him; he isn't monitoring this forum.

for gods sake then... Im gonna print out a page of all the complaints people have had about multicasting and give it to him, his boss and CBS. This is rediculous.

I think we have all invested way too much time and money into HDTV only to have to deal with piss-poor multicasting- something NO ONE wants.

:mad: :mad:

Originally posted by JimProuty
If you want to contact Lee Wood at KOIN, you'll need to email him; he isn't monitoring this forum.

Thats too bad. He started this thread after all!

Dave

Whats up with KPDX? I haven't been able to tune that station for quite a while now. Is anyone else having problems or is it just me?

Dean,

I don't think I've flipped by it in a few days but I know I have watched the 10:00 news there a couple times in the last week.... It's always come in pretty well and the news looks great, but when watching non-live programming like Enterprise or Buffy for instance I have always gotten some very strange picture shimmering or something from them. It's hard to describe but it's kind of like certain areas of the picture will shift about slightly while the rest of the picture will be ok. It's pretty subtle almost like my eyes are playing tricks on me (maybe it's just some flashbacks from the old days ;)). Like I said, pretty strange. Anybody else?

As far as KOIN goes, since several of you have commented on how bad that movie was last weekend I have to wonder if someone didn't have something set up right. I didn't see it but even though there's usually some pixelation it doesn't seem as bad as you guys have said the movie was. I kinda think Lee must have gotten tired of reading our complaints here. I'm sure the multicasting is not his call. And it's possible he may even wish they weren't doing it just like us but has to spout the "official" company line. If anybody's going to send any letters I think you'd be better off sending them to the station GM and maybe copying Lee on them.

ron

Which sub-channel are you trying to tune? -2 is the national feed and only broadcasts certain shows.

I would also like to come to Lee's defense. I have been very impressed with his efforts so far. That doesn't mean I'm impressed with KOIN's signal. I think Lee is doing everything he can with the equipment he has and policies he has to follow to provide the best quality possible.

I bought the Samsung 165 and JVC 30000 combo so I could record CBS HD programming. That combo doesn't work with the KOIN signal so I contacted KOIN. Lee wrote me back personally to work with me in an effort to find a solution. He even contacted me at home to do some informal testing. I was very impressed with his personal concern for my problem. That's VERY rare today.

There are a lot of problems right now with KOIN's HD efforts but I wouldn't point my finger at Lee. He needs our feedback and our support. Yelling at him won't get us very far.

Just my $.02...

BB

Originally posted by bertschb

There are a lot of problems right now with KOIN's HD efforts but I wouldn't point my finger at Lee. He needs our feedback and our support. Yelling at him won't get us very far.


oh come on guys, its the american way, lets start a fight over multicasting!!! :D

Originally posted by bertschb
I would also like to come to Lee's defense. I have been very impressed with his efforts so far. That doesn't mean I'm impressed with KOIN's signal. I think Lee is doing everything he can with the equipment he has and policies he has to follow to provide the best quality possible.

I bought the Samsung 165 and JVC 30000 combo so I could record CBS HD programming. That combo doesn't work with the KOIN signal so I contacted KOIN. Lee wrote me back personally to work with me in an effort to find a solution. He even contacted me at home to do some informal testing. I was very impressed with his personal concern for my problem. That's VERY rare today.

There are a lot of problems right now with KOIN's HD efforts but I wouldn't point my finger at Lee. He needs our feedback and our support. Yelling at him won't get us very far.

Just my $.02...

BB

Have you had any luck solving the recording issue ??

Nope. In fact I returned the JVC 30000. Most of the programming I wanted to record is on KOIN. Since I can't record the KOIN signal I didn't have much use for the deck.

I'm patiently waiting for the HD Tivo. I think KOIN will figure this all out by then (end of the year).

BB

I spoke to a Comcast engineer yesterday and asked him about HDTV cable in the Portland/SW Washington area. He informed me that it will become available at the end of July or August with test periods coming in May and June.

Thanks for the update James. It's great news for the area to see them moving forward with it. It's been my hope all along that once the local broadcasters' HD signals get wider distribution beyond a few nuts like us that they will begin to feel the pressure to get their acts (signals) together and provide a quality product. They won't just have to put up with the occasional call from irrate customers pulling the HD signals OTA, but also hopefully from the Comcast folks who begin hearing from their customers as well. Who knows if it will actually play out like that and maybe I'm just dreaming but I've got my fingers crossed. Let's hope Comcast puts on a big ad blitz supporting their HD cable!

ron

If you get a chance to talk with the Comcast Engineer again, Could you ask him what data rates they plan on delivering for HD? It seems that in many areas of the country being served by cable, data rates are capped in the 11-12mb/S range. As many of us here aren’t too happy with that kind of data rate, (KOIN) it would probably be a make or break factor on whether I subscribe or not. (And loosing the ability to record/timeshift)

Thanks.

Dave

OK, Guys, I am at my wits end with my 6000, I really need your input. I've posted before about seeing jumpy, jerky movement from film based HD movies. I borrowed a buddies 8vsb mod to see if I get the same issues from his mod and I do.

The only movie I had a chance to watch with it was "The Whole 9 Yards" last night on CBS. The jerkiness was not nearly as bad as I've seen before but it was still there. I think if you were not looking for it, you probably wouldn't notice it.

This is driving me crazy and I don't think exchanging my 6000 will fix it, as I've already exchanged it once for a different reason and the problem has always been there.

It looks like a movie being time compressed, where it will jump a frame or two every couple of seconds during scenes with lateral movement. Am I the only one seeing this?

I watched part of Nine Yards last night and didn't notice anything but I was reading the paper at the same time and so wasn't paying real close attention. I've head of this before. Isn't there some station in Phoenix that employs this practice? Anyway, I always wondered how they keep the audio synced up over the course of a show. They must cut that too but you'd think you'd notice that even more... Are you seeing this all the time or what?

ron

I haven't noticed this, but I haven't been looking for it either. I didn't watch 'The Whole 9 Yards' yesterday, only 'Atlantis' on ABC. Would I be able to see it watching shows like JAG, CSI, and ALIAS?

Cris

Ron, I see it in every film based HD movie I have ever watched OTA. It's weird, I only see it OTA and never via HBO or Showtime.

When CBS showed Eraser about 2 years ago I couldn't watch it because it jerked so bad. I emailed Lee about it and he said things were ok on his end, so it must be the way my 6000 decodes OTA film.

I am wondering if it has something to do with 3:2 pulldown, but I'm not certain. The jerkiness is constant if there is lateral motion. It doesn't matter if I am watching in HD @ 720p, 1080i or downconverted to SD on my 27" NTSC TV, the jerkiness is still there.

Hmmm. That does sound very strange. I can say that I don't think I have ever seen anything like that with my Hughes clone. Since it only occurs with the film based material it would seem that it could be 3:2 related somehow. But does the 6000 receiver actually do 3:2 pulldown itself? I don't know what to tell you. It still seems strange to me that some of you get a decent picture from the Fox widescreen with video based programming but it looks like absolute crap on my Mitsubishi. Maybe someday all this equipment will be more standardized or at least more robust. Have you tried searching or posting in the HD equipment forum to see if others there have experienced it?

ron

Anyone heard if KOIN is going to carry the Masters during the day as is being told here? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=246741)

I just had a conversation with a KGW Engineer and he told me that KGW just ordered a new VHF channel 8 transmitter that is able to transmit either as an analog or digital transmitter.

KGW will eventually turn off their UHF transmitter and transmit only on 8.

The benefits are many for them.

VHF uses less power, (money saving) has better range and better wave propagation.

Has anyone heard if the other local stations are going transmit digital on VHF?

I hope the news about KGW is wrong. Its really better for us if we don't have to have a separate VHF antenna just for KGW.

On another note, the OPB DTV schedule page has this at the top:
OPB is now simulcasting our Channel 10 programming on our digital service, Channel 27. This is in accordance with the FCC's mandate for stations that have been transmitting a digital service for at least a year to offer at least 50% of their analog service on their digital station also. From 8pm to 11pm we will continue to offer the best High Definition, Widescreen and Letterbox programming available.

Does this mean they're transmitting all day now?

When/if PAX ever gets going, I think they will have channel 3. They are the reason WB was held up for so long due to a request to reASSign their channel number.

RE: OPB. They start now at 1PM, I believe. I haven't receive this weeks schedule so I can't verify it.

Anyone else dislike the new OPB HDTV logo they have now? I don't like it, it is much too big. I liked the old OPB teeny tiny bug they used to use.

The KGW-DT VHF transmitter is a done deal.

NAB (the yearly trade show for broadcasters) is just wrapping up and the contracts have been signed.

My guess would be that the other local VHF stations will also retain their VHF channels for DTV due to the reasons in my previous post.

Hmm, I guess I don't understand this too well then. I thought the govt wanted that portion of the spectrum back...

ron

Perhaps it is more an investment for the future.

While the new transmitter is digital capable, they can continue to use it as a normal VHF transmitter.

Also, They will likely lose a lot of viewers if they wen digital in the VHF spectrum - it will be some time before the FCC mandate kicks in requiring digital capable tuners for all new sets (and the digital tuner add-ons at low-cost are still far away).

Bottom line - don't panic. The NBC/KGW community will be viewing Channel 8 for some time to come.

My two cents.

Mike

The government is giving the broadcasters the option of either VHF or UHF for their digital signal.

The only reason the broadcasters are using UHF for digital is that in most markets the analog VHF channels are full. That and the new hybrid analog/digital transmitters are just now becoming available.

In addition unlike analog, digital can have adjacent channels. IE: channels 2,3 in the same market without the fear of cross talk.

My guess is that most of the locals that are analog VHF will eventually be digital VHF.

Just a guess.

Originally posted by scottcorinna
My guess is that most of the locals that are analog VHF will eventually be digital VHF.

Just a guess.

True, at some time in the future.

But not until majority of people have ability to receive network programming via low-cost cable, satellite, or with low-cost OTA digital tuners.

This is all part of the FCC master plan to convert the spectrum over to digital transmissions. And as has been pointed out numerous times - digital does not necessarily meant HDTV.

Mike

The FCC wanted to sell the extra spectrum back to whom ever had the money.

Well... no one has the money. (Except the broadcasters and they already have the spectrum.)

So the broadcasters can sit on both UHF and VHF until the switch to digital is mandated by the FCC. (Who knows when that will be.)

I talked with the transmitter engineer at KGW and he said that switching to VHF from UHF for the digital signal will cut the electricity bill by over half.

Plus the signal will travel farther and have fewer ghosting problems.

Does anybody know why KOIN didn't show the HD loop that others were getting in lieu of the opening round of the Masters today? Should I be worried about the broadcast tomorrow? Also, are they pretty reliable about schedule updates, because the HD coverage is going to start earlier than previously announced, at 11 a.m. PST. Does anybody know anything. God knows I don't.

Nestor

Is anybody using MyHD in Portland. I am and I am having a terrible time getting KATU to come in. Since I migrated to the 1.53Beta and now the 1.60 "Production" I get audio drop offs and have to turn the application on and off to get audio back. Audio only stays on for 3~4 minutes before starting to break up and then nothing. Once I have lost sound, I can't get it back by switching channels. Anyone else having this problem using this HW? I generally get about 75% signal strength so I don't think that is it. I am trying to figure out if it is KATU or the MyHD.

thanks,

jmv

JMV

I loaded the new version 1.6 today and noticed the same thing with KATU. Didn't pay much attention since KATU has had intermittent sound before. Will check it out more tomorrow. I'm also getting a pretty good signal.

Steve

Just received an update on WB, Pat say's they are shooting for June 15th to fire it up.

So, what was everyone's opinion as to the quality of the Master's broadcast in Portland? Over in the programming forum there was everything from bad to outstanding.

I think Portland fell in the upper middle category. I would rate the PQ a B+. It was not ultra sharp to me, the ABC movie "DR. Dolittle" looked better last night than the Masters did (with the exception of the scenery shots and jacket presentation, which were outstanding).

On the plus side, I had no picture breakups or audio issues that I remember. The thing that drove me nuts the most was the logos going fuzzy on the hats when the people would move and the use of SD cameras at the T's.

Just received an update on WB, Pat say's they are shooting for June 15th to fire it up.

I assume this means to start digital broadcasting, but not HDTV, like UPN is currently doing?

Cris

Yes. I'm sure they will start out SD, I don't know who owns our local WB and if they will go HD or not.

I wasn't very impressed with the PQ of the Master's. It seemed like it was out of focus much of the time. I thought it my be my setup, but all the other HD looked fine.

BB

I thought The Masters was very, very good overall. The only flaws I noticed were the use of an SD camera at some tees and (at least on my GWII) some over-bright whites at times from some cameras. The over exposed scenes may have been my TV but I don't think so since my set has been adjusted using the tweaks in this forum and the fact that the vast majority of the shots were properly exposed.

Did anybody else notice the SD camera(s) or the occasional overexposed shots?

I hope I don't sound too picky. Overall I just LOVED watching the Masters in HD. A great deal of the material was simply stunning!

The soft cameras were analog cameras that were up-converted for the HD broadcast.

It's too expensive to have that big of production with all HD cameras.

The camera that was overexposed was also an analog camera that was up-converted. My guess is the up-converter or the camera was bad but they didn't have a replacement.

I'm glad you noticed the overexposed camera too. I hoped I wasn't imagining it.

Just a side not about the Masters.

The remote production truck used for the broadcast is the HDTV truck that Paul Allen (Blazer owner.) had built for ASCN. (It was sold to NEP after he shut down ASCN.)

It had been scheduled for the Masters remote for quite a long time.

Will there be any BLAZER games in HD any time soon??
How about the NBA playoffs or finals?
Thanks for any info, I would love to see a blazer game in High Definition.

I thought the masters looked pretty darn good. Even the standard def cameras looked a lot better than analog.

It did seem that about half the shots were standard def even though there were claimed to be many more HD cameras than SD.

Originally posted by wizdum
Will there be any BLAZER games in HD any time soon??
How about the NBA playoffs or finals?
Thanks for any info, I would love to see a blazer game in High Definition. You missed your chance. There were a couple last year before ASCN went belly up.

NBA-TV is going to be doing 7 HD games in the playoffs but no one knows which they will be doing. ESPN-HD is scheduled to do the Eastern Finals in HD and ABC will do some(all?) of the Finals in HD. So, chances of seeing the Blazers in HD look to be slim to none.

ron

Wow, this is quite a thread. I have finally read through it's entirety in a couple sittings. Lots and lots of good information.

I'm new to the DTV scene and live in Hillsboro. I've been using some radio shack rabbit ears with a UHF loop antenna for about a year now and though I don't have an HD capable TV I have been thinking all this time that I would like to be able to recieve digital broadcast to get improved image quality. The more that I read about it I'm not convinced that I can recieve OTA digital and display it on my standard SD TV though. To further complicate my desire to get a digital tuner/decoder I just installed a Radio Shack 80" boom UHF/VHF antenna in my attic and now I get crystal clear analog reception on everything basically.

I guess my question comes down to would I see any PQ improvement by decoding digital and downscaling it to input to my standard NTSC TV through it's S-Video or component (Y, Pr, Pb) inputs?

Reading through this thread and all the broadcast issue it adds another layer of doubt to whether it would be worth my effort (and cash) with out having the benifit of an actual HDTV.

Originally posted by Anubi
I guess my question comes down to would I see any PQ improvement by decoding digital and downscaling it to input to my standard NTSC TV through it's S-Video or component (Y, Pr, Pb) inputs? It might, but if your current signal is "crystal clear", it probably wouldn't be enough of an improvement to justify the cost of a tuner. If you're satisfied with what you have, stick with it for now. Prices on digital tuners should go down over the next few years.

BB

Not really. I feed a TV in the bedroom via antenna and the locals look fabulous on the Analog tuner, about as good as they look downconverted via a digital tuner.

The benefit of using digital is that you will never have the Analog drawbacks, wavy lines, grain or whatever else Analog is known for. 90% of the time, the bedroom picture is rock solid and rivals the digital downconvert.

The Analog advantage is that you won't have people falling asleep at the switch, or reassigning the PSIP generator so your box pukes and reboots and you won't experience dropouts and pixelation.

For the most part, if you are happy with Analog, don't change.

Thanks Marissadad. That pretty much the info I was looking for. I guess I'll slowly keep working on a HTPC that Fusion HDTV card looks really interesting. But I guess I'm not going to be in any hurry to get it finished. Now I just need to convince you know who that we need an HDTV :)

OK, are the Samsung stb owners the only ones having problems with the audio on 2-1 ? I'm so sick of having to reboot my T150 ( had to do it about 20 times just during NYPD last night) that I'm ready to throw the thing out. I never used to have this problem - the second half of the Superbowl was the first time I noticed it and it's been there ever since.

I have a Mitsubishi hd400 directv receiver. I'm having some weird audio problems. On 6-1 there is an annoying clicking sound every 2 seconds on the main audio choice, when I switch over to the alternate audio, it is out of sync with the image. The lips are slower than the sound. On 10-1 the audio is out of sync also. If this makes any sense does any one have any ideas?

I have a Sammy 151, and I just thought that the audio lapses were due to me only getting about 40% signal strength on 2-1. Anyway I'm glad that my audio comes back just by cycling the channel up or down.

Originally posted by James_stewart
I have a Mitsubishi hd400 directv receiver. I'm having some weird audio problems. On 6-1 there is an annoying clicking sound every 2 seconds on the main audio choice, when I switch over to the alternate audio, it is out of sync with the image. The lips are slower than the sound. On 10-1 the audio is out of sync also. If this makes any sense does any one have any ideas?

I have the same clicking on 6-1 you're experiencing on my Samsung SIR T-165. It's pretty annoying. (The clicking happens only during HDTV programming, which is, of course, when I'm most likely to tune in!)

I also have problems with 2-1 audio. But it is not just the audio for me -- there are video jumps at the same time. It is as if the timebase is wrong and after a while things get so far out of whack that the system has to junk a half second or so of both audio and video. There is really something wrong with KATU's digital stream.

This is with a HiPix system and I am at least a week behind so this info may not be current.

I haven't watched any shows on KOIN the last couple days but I have checked in on their news for sports and weather reports and seemed to get good reception with my Mits box. I do continue to get periodic audio drop outs on KATU but nothing that's been been bad enough to make viewing terrible. I have noticed that my reception of them seems to have become very picky with occasional breakups the last month or two though. Wondering if they have lowered their signal power or something maybe?

ron

I watch KATU only for Alias and I've never noticed an audio problem then. OPB was horribly out of sync Tuesday night. I have a Dish 6000. I haven't noticed KOIN clicking because I rarely watch them live, but they do have an audio clicking on the Dish locals feed for KOIN.

I have a Dish 6000. I watched the last half hour of CSI last night and the constant steady audio clicking was really annoying.

Cris

Well, I watched Survivor and most of CSI last night and with my Mits/Hughes receiver the audio was fine. It just continues to amaze me that there's so much variation between the different brands of receivers. Overall the Hughes clones seem to be relatively robust but mine doesn't handle the Fox 480p too well (especially the live/tape stuff) and I still have that strange kind of smearing or picture shifting with KPTV.

ron

I live in Sacramento and I have the Sony HD200. I started another thread on the Hardware forum about this clicking problem:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2119618#post2119618

As I said in that thread it is only on the CBS channel and only during primetime with HD transmissions. If the program is not in HD the local station up converts it and the clicking goes away! But if the program is in HD they feed the signal DIRECTLY from CBS and the engineer says the clicking is CBS's problem. I can't believe CBS would be broadcasting this defective audio to the entire country! Since this is the first thread where I have read about the clicking I am wondering if it is a combination of whatever equipment the local Sacramento and Portland stations are using?

Even though the engineer says they send the CBS HD feed directly to the viewers, there must be some local equipment involved? Any input is appreciated.:) BTW I also had to turn off CSI last night because of the intermittent clicking.

JimProuty: I read your post and you are having my exact problem. But as I said above I live in Sacramento. I have talked to the engineer at my local CBS affiliate. Have you or anyone in Portland called the local CBS afiliate and talked to an engineer? I would be interested in what they said. Does he also blame CBS?

Anyone here in the Portland area on a first name speaking basis with Lee Wood? Perhaps a call or an e-mail would do some good?

Cris

Originally posted by Cris Moore
Anyone here in the Portland area on a first name speaking basis with Lee Wood? Perhaps a call or an e-mail would do some good?

Cris
Lee is a great guy, he is very responsive about returning emails. He is the moderator of this forum, just click on his name to send him a PM (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=233). Click on the link next to Contact Lee Wood.

I sent Lee a PM. I'll let you know if I get a response.

Cris

Originally posted by DOBE
JimProuty: I read your post and you are having my exact problem. Have you or anyone in Portland called the local CBS afiliate and talked to an engineer? I would be interested in what they said.
I sent email to Lee quoting James Stewart's problem, added mine to the complaint, and Lee replied to ask me if it was during up-convert programming or during HTDV.

I replied that the clicking happened only during HDTV transmissions from CBS.

I don't have any indication from Lee what the problem is. He generally takes a day or so to reply, but he usually replies in detail. I'll let the forum know if I hear anything back from him.

And while he may have started this thread, he has indicated to me that he doesn't monitor it any longer. Lee Wood's last post was 01-27-03 02:02 PM (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=233).

You'll need to send him email. I got his email off of his HDTV news blog (http://pub1.ezboard.com/fdigitaltelevisionhdtvforumhdtvdigitaltelevisionnewsforum).

If absolutely necessary, I can provide his email address via PM (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=20276).

Did anyone notice a signifisant amount of artifact during the fight scenes on yesterday's CSI.
It also seems a shame that Lee Wood no longer monitors this thread. It seems that there must be some unhappiness on his part with the tenor of some of the responses to cause him to withdraw from the forum. I personally share the sentiment expressed above about his willingness to take the time to answer questions and help those getting started in HD to have an easier time with set up, antennas etc. I hope he returns and that any future comments on KOIN's picture, sound and multicasting is kept positive and constructive.

Michael,

I recorded CSI on KOIN last night with MyHD card and also noticed a great deal of artifacts in all the fast action and bright lights. I actually watched it on the LA CBS HD station over my Dish 6000 and it was a perfect picture and sound as always. Compared with Dish LA CBS HD, KOIN looked like crap. They have got to get rid of the useless sub channels so we can get descent HD.

On a lighter note, the sound was great on my recording of CSI with the MyHD card. No clicking noise at all.

Steve

xsrsmithx: You didn't say whether you heard the clicking on KOIN.

If the clicking is not on the local LA affiliate then it must not be the network. If it's on KOIN and only some STB's then it must be the local encoding in conjunction with the software of particular boxes.

It's interesting that the Sony and Samsung seem to produce this clicking in conjuction with certain local affiliates after they have relayed CBS HD programs. Why not with other networks HD programming?

DOBE

I didn't watch any of the local broadcast of CSI on KOIN with my Dish 6000 so I couldn't verify if there was clicking or not. My MyHD recording of CSI from KOIN was good sound. Cris More reported he was getting clicking from KOIN with his Dish 6000.

Steve

What about the second audio choice on KOIN, it seems to be way out of sync with the picture. The same with pbs 10-1

good morning beavers and ducks!
i'm new to hdtv and stumbled onto this thread.
i live at tanasbrook condos. i read all 647 posts and
have very similiar experiences. i was wondering if anyone
had any new information about timeshifting/ taping
6.1. i get blank tape from sir-t165 via firewire to mits dvhs.
however i can record 6.2 just fine and god only knows why
anyone would want to record traffic, 6.3 is equally ok.
ther seems to be a very steep learning curve for the techs
when it comes to hdtv. reminds me of the fifties: " we are
experiencing technical difficulties, please stand by". lew

lewlew,
Welcome !
I am not far from you in the Bethany area. I have the same combo of SIR T165 and Mits DVHS and experience the same problem with 6-1.
There is something in the program information data-stream that is broadcast with 6-1 that triggers the T165 to shut off output through the firewire. KOIN TV is aware of the problem and is working on a solution but, no recent news on their progress.

Is everyone currently having problems with audio & video dropouts on KATU? Alias & Dragnet about drove me insane last night. Of course, the audio dropouts are at a critical moment when you must hear what's going on. BTW, my signal was rock solid at 90%.

I am really getting tired of digital TV.

Originally posted by Marissadad
Is everyone currently having problems with audio & video dropouts on KATU? Alias & Dragnet about drove me insane last night. Of course, the audio dropouts are at a critical moment when you must hear what's going on. BTW, my signal was rock solid at 90%.

I am really getting tired of digital TV.
I heard them, too (using a Samsung SIR-T165 receiver). Yep, they're annoying.

Alias looked pretty good, though! I'd rather see a good image like that than look at the standard def picture with standard audio...

I noticed the video and audio problems as well, although I thought it was from my low 70ish signal strength, dang trees and multi-path.

Also, for me, Alias's black level seemed high. I had to drop the black level back a few notches on my set to get the blacks to look right.

Cris

KATU definitely seems to have some problems these days. While watching the end of the Lakers/T-Wolves game yesterday I got the usual periodic audio drop outs and some slight video breakups here and there. Clear weather, no wind and full signal strength... I think their transmitter is just messed up.

ron

I noticed the KATU problems again last night during Alias (Samsung SIR-T151). I would really like an explanation from somebody there, but don't know how to get one. This problem with the audio is extremely reproduce-able (it happens EVERY time at the start of the show) and again at the 3/4 hour commercial. I can understand KATU not being able to fix the problem due to some technical or monetary constraint, but at the least, I would like to know what the problem is.

At first, I thought it was firmware related for my Samsung, but then I hear interesting things on this forum, like "before December, I didn't have this problem".

Anybody know who I can call or write?

somervi

somervi,

I believe the problem with the audio your are referring too is when KATU switches from DD5.1 back to stereo for a "local?" commercial and then back to DD5.1 for the show again. This transition isn't smooth at all.

Cris

I'm one of those with the severe KATU audio dropouts. And yes, all was fine until aproximately December of last year when apparently they upgraded their equipment. On the Samsung T150 multiple power cycles will temporarily clear the problem. I generally see the same problem: cuts out at the beginning and then once again near the end. Although last night it cut out near 30-minutes into it. It is terribly annoying. I don't bother watching KATU HDTV anymore.

I also get the light crackling on CBS HDTV (can't remember if it was happening recently though, it was always very minor). Oddly, I noticed crackling for at least a little while on the Dish Network local transmission of CBS also.

I agree - HDTV is definately not ready for the masses yet. It's definately something I think only us early adopters are willing to put up with. It's pretty embarrasing when I have someone over to watch. Leaves a pretty bad impression with folks. Alias is particularly frustrating as that seems to be the most popular with my friends.

I'm holding my breadth for either the Dish 921 receiver or Comcast to distribute HDTV in Vancouver. I'm hoping at least one of them has premier product.

Erik

BitJumper,

What firmware are you using on the SIR-T150? I have v 1.8 (the last official firmware posted on the Samsung website) and have had lots of audio dropouts on KATU since Dec., 2002 (worked fine before). There was some speculation that firmware 2.0 might fix the problem - can anyone verify this? Right now, cycling the power to the receiver several times seems to be the only way to cure the problem.

Gary

I'm holding my breadth for either the Dish 921 receiver or Comcast to distribute HDTV in Vancouver. I'm hoping at least one of them has premier product.Erik, unless the local broadcasters are providing good clean signals to Comcast I don't believe it will be any better. Of course you won't have the regular reception issues, but the problems that are inherent in the transmission itself will still remain. My hope all along has been that once cable picks up the HD feeds the broadcasters will feel some pressure to provide quality, reliable product. At this point I'm not even sure that will make them want to work out the kinks but I'm still holding out hope...

ron

The audio on KOIN last night was so bad I could not watch it. It sounded like every other packet was being lost or something.

I tuned in CSI: Miami & the audio was so screwed up so I switched to KGW and watched Crossing Jordan.

During Charilie's Angels on KATU I was still getting audio and video breakups as well.

I have a Dish 6000.

CSI:Miami audio was screwed up for me too. I stuck it out though at watched the whole thing.

I didn't watch any KATU.

I have a Dish 6000.

It's not just the 6000. My sammy 151 suffered the audio drops on 6-1 also. 6-2 audio was ok though so I watched CSI:Miami at low res instead.

Hey Marrissadad,

Wasn't it you that had the name of the engineer at KATU? I looked back a number of pages and couldn't find it. I thought I might give him a call and see what they are doing....

ron

Ron, it's Alan Batdorf, ABatdorf@katu.com.

KOIN totally sucked last night during CSI:Miami. the pixelation during the club scenes (or any other dark, moving scenes) was the worst I have ever seen on any HD channel anywhere.

On the flip side, KATU had it nearly perfect for the 2 hour Alias finale, a few audio glitches aside.

Thanks for the contact info. It sounds like there may have been some issues with the network feed during CSI last night. There's a thread I scanned through in the HD forum about the unusually high amout of pixelation during the show. I didn't see CSI but I continue to get periodic audio and video drops on KATU that, while not terrible (at least for me), are pretty annoying. Then there was Gladiator the other night. I didn't watch it but I checked in a couple times to see how things were going. Looked fine at the beginning, but when I checked back later on it was completely hosed up. I'm just starting to think about the NBA Finals coming up next month on ABC...

ron

Gladiator was horrible. I tuned in for the first 10 minutes and it was pretty decent, but after awhile I couldn't take anymore of the popping audio. Alias was OK with very little audio burps.

Why does KATU not have very much LFE? I have Bass Shakers under my couch and I get very little, if anything from them.

Well, there's a thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=255646) on that in the HD Programming forum too :). At least one guy says he hasn't gotten any of the .1 from the 5.1 for two weeks now on ABC....

ron

Whats going on with FOX and UPN tonight? Both 30-1 and 48-1 are showing the same thing, both FOX. I had to watch Enterprise on 49 analog to see UPN.

Funny, I had a similar experience, except that I was able to watch the HD broadcast of Enterprise on one of the subchannels of both 30 and 48. Don't remember the specific one, though.

In any case, first time HD viewing as I usually watch SD on TiVo.

Nice black frame around the entire picture on my Sony 57XBR2. No way to expand on my set.

Mike

It looks like they have split the signals between both transmitters since they are now owned by the same company. This is a good thing, it enables them to reach a wider market with both channels. Also, the signal strength on UPN is much improved. It used to take me 20 seconds to lock a signal, now it is almost instant.

Also, it was odd that UPN is transmitting a 16:9 window and the FOX widescreen has gone away. Maybe we will see some HD on UPN?

Sorry guys, I should have posted about this yesterday. It got to be a hectic afternoon here at work. I emailed Ed Williams the chief engineer (for both stations now) yesterday about the problems I was experiencing with KPDX. Their signal strength had dropped by about half recently but the signal was still relatively stable until I went to watch Buffy Tues night and it was totally messed up. Long story short, the KPDX encoder is wacked once again. He had told me they were going to double up both stations' streams off the KPTV encoder. Here's one of his responses FWIW:

Just FYI - you can now, for the time being anyway, watch KPTV on either 30.1 or 48.1 and KPDX on either 30.2 or 48.2

We traced the whole mess to another in a long, long line of failures of the KPDX studio DTV encoder. The thing has given us nothing but headaches from day one and it has once again smoked. Until we get it fixed, we're shipping out the two stations on both transmission streams from one encoder.

EdI'm not competely sure that's actually how it worked out but I believe I ended up on 30-2 for Enterprise (full screen SD). Just for the record mmihalik, even though Enterprise is mastered in HD it is only sent out in SD format by UPN so you still haven't seen it in HD :). Hopefully one of these days we all will though. It was a good episode wasn't it? Seems to me that this season the cast and writers are really settling into a groove finally.

ron

Originally posted by R11
Just for the record mmihalik, even though Enterprise is mastered in HD it is only sent out in SD format by UPN so you still haven't seen it in HD :). Hopefully one of these days we all will though. It was a good episode wasn't it? Seems to me that this season the cast and writers are really settling into a groove finally.

ron

Ron,

Thanks for the clarification. I've watched Enterprise off and on the past season, and give it mixed reviews. Entertaining, but doesn't keep me coming back reliably each week. I wanted to watch this one as it had the Borg.

Over on hometheaterforum (or was it home theater spot?) they seem to know a lot more than I do; and claim some sort of "not true to the genre" problem with the story line.

As for SD vs. HD...I understand what you are saying, but on my set, I noted two different degrees of quality between the 4:3 broadcast on one sub-channel, and the letter-box on the other. I don't know what mode I had on the letter-box broadcast, but it did have a black frame completely around the picture. My Sony says it was locked in FULL mode. Looked good, but not as good as the HD loops on KGW.

Mike

Thanks for the update guys. I didn't even think about looking at the sub-channels.

Cris

Actually what I posted wasn't quite right either. What I watched was letterboxed SD (since the show is produced that way) and what you saw would be considered "Window boxed". It sounds like it was probably coming from the same feed they usually use for the Fox Widescreen (which would allow it to be displayed by your system via the HD output without distortion) and your STB was upconverting it (which would explain the better PQ).

As far as the show goes, I think it's getting better this season. It's seemed to take the actors (especially the captain) a long time to "fit" into their roles to me. I think the reason I liked the episode last night was partly because of the Borg too :). although I've been a long time fan of all the Star Trek shows, I'm not a big "historian", but I'm guessing those people are complaining because in the Star Trek time line the Borg don't show up until much later. By having them make an appearance I think the show was "adding" a little history (which they kind of explained with a work around).

ron

Originally posted by R11
...It sounds like it was probably coming from the same feed they usually use for the Fox Widescreen (which would allow it to be displayed by your system via the HD output without distortion) and your STB was upconverting it (which would explain the better PQ).


No STB, I guess my HD Tuner would be considered an built-in tuner (BIT) or InSide Box (ISB) :D . The 57XBR2 has a built-in HDTV tuner; I think internally it connects via the iLink/FireWire port. My only complaint with the internal tuner is that:
- I know I am stuck if the technology changes
- occasional red-dots on certain digital broadcasts; not random - as they appear in the same place either midscreen or in the left black margin. Definitely show some pattern, so it is some decoding artifact. It is rare that I see these, so I attribute them to station problems, not set problems.

I don't seem to be experiencing the problems others are having with their STB; don't know if this is luck, skill, or quality!

Mike

sorry - double posted

Up until KPDX lost their encoder I couldn't receive their DTV signal in West Linn.

Now I'm getting a solid picture. I hope the repaired encoder doesn't cause me to loose the signal.

scottcorinna

I have suffered the same problem (no signal most of the time) w/ both FOX 12 and UPN 49 but now receive both solidly on 30-1/48-1 and 30-2/48-2.
I too hope it stays this way after the "repair"!

On another note. Is everyone in Portland asleep? Hasn't been much action on this thread lately. Is everyone giving up?

; )

Yes, but has anybody found the actual "Widescreen" up anywhere? I did a quick search last night before 24 and ended up watching it in SD. Even if the picture isn't much better it is kind of nice to have the extra screen real estate. I've become very spoiled and dislike the claustrophobic 4:3 AR.

ron

I hear you, Ron. I feel the same way, like I am squished inside a small box and have to escape.

FWIW, WB will probably fire up sometime in July, they are having some delays. I hope since they just bought their equipment that they can pass through the HD that the WB has.

I don't think we will get the widescreen Fox back until they fix the other encoder.

I think you're right about the Widescreen. And it would be great if the WB actually does pass the HD. Didn't someone previously say they didn't plan to though?

ron

I read that the WB's HDTV tower will go live July 1st, 2003, and is located in Salem, Oregon.

I bet it will be in SD for a while, then eventually it'll go widescreen, as WB isn't a rich company with millions to invest in high definition content just yet.

The WB tower is actually the same tower and using the same antenna as KOIN. There was a thread posted earlier on this by Lee Wood, the KOIN station engineer.

As posted by vfxproducer over in the HD Programming forum:I do occasional work on Gilmore Girls, and have confirmed that it will be HD next year. There will be a LOT more HD on the WB network next year.They may be small but they've got grit :D. Makes Fox look pretty lame doesn't it?

ron

Well, is it true that the WB HDTV tower in Salem will go live July 1st, 2003?

I'd prefer using the one on ABC's tower, of course, but whichever one comes out first, or if both, which ever one can do 1080i first would be fun to see.

I was scanning for antenna placements according to my address and it listed the WB salem channel 33 for a live date of july1st. i havent heard this from anyone else, so I was wondering if there are any WB techs roaming the AVS forums.

I prefer the sharing of towers, too.

That way, there is no need to rotate our antennas.

Mike

iodsnips, see this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1805016&highlight=KOIN#post1805016) post from Lee Wood, the WB will use KOIN'S antenna on Sylvan Hill in Portland, not Salem.

With regards to going live July 1st, they may. I have talked to Pat Shearer, the WB station engineer and his hopes are high for a July 1 fireup.

Did anybody else notice the audio breakups on KOIN tonight during CSI? I have the Samsung 165. I know ABC has had trouble occasionally with their audio but this is the first time I've watched a CBS HD feed in quite some time. I just don't remember a solid hour of audio drop out/pops on KOIN.

Any word on if KOIN will ever fix the pixelization problems? Unfortunately, I expect it now but it would be nice if CBS could find a solution.

Ahhhhh - HDTV! What fun!

Anyone else lose KOIN last night? Near the end of the BB game, around 7:45, I switched over to KOIN and my 6000 got remapped to 40 with a signal strength of 97 then it froze and kicked me back to the last channel I was on. I tried adding it back in and kept getting channel 40 so I think the PSIP was hosed again.

I called the News line and asked them to notify Engineering that the digital channel was off air, but it never came back as of the CSI:Miami start.

I didn't lose KOIN but it and PBS were remapped on my Samsung 165. I watched CSI at 8:00 on 40-1 (KOIN). Continuous audio drop outs for the entire hour but I did have a picture...

I too had my 6000 remap on KOIN.

I also noticed that KPDX is now gone.

Did KPDX reinstall their encoder? Could this be the problem with KOIN and KOPB.

Scott

I was able to get OPB back last night and watched the Coral show instead of CSI:Miami. I could not get CBS back no matter how many times I tried. Earlier in the week I had the same problem with OPB, it mapped to 27 and would not tune in. I wonder if this is a new bug with the 6000? I don't have KPDX back yet either.

I watched the better part of the second half of the BB game on KATU last night and they seem to have partially fixed their problems as the signal strength now appears to be back to it's higher level. I still get periodic audio drops outs but the picture is much more stable with far fewer breakups now. The game came through with only stereo sound (right and left mains) but it sounds like that was a network feed problem though.

I did flip over to CSI later on and the audio was definitely messed up. Didn't notice any drop outs but it sounded all garbled up. Picture seemed to be coming through fine for the couple minutes I lasted before bailing due to the sound probs. Also noticed that my Hughes clone receiver was taking much longer than usual to lock on to the signal which has never happened before that I can remember.

Flipped by OPB and it looked OK.

As far as KPDX and KPTV go, I found that KPDX was gone when I went to watch the series finale of Buffy on Tues and ended up watching it analog. On the plus side to that, right after Buffy I found that Fox was back up in widescreen for the season ender of 24. We gain, we lose.... Sure would be nice to fast forward a few years and have all this stuff stabilized with new equipment up and functioning smoothly wouldn't it? Get's pretty tiresome.

ron

Sure would be nice to fast forward a few years and have all this stuff stabilized with new equipment up and functioning smoothly wouldn't it?

Or, rewind one year. IIRC, it was in a much better state last year. It seems to be getting worse not better.

Dave

ooh-- ooh : I don't know how long it will last, but for grins I tried taping 40-1 today on my 165 to Mits D-vhs. It was only the colonial golf tourney shot in sd and up-rezzed but I actually got something other than blank tape. Will try tonite to get something in true HD.

Lew

Now UPN is up on 30-02 and STRETCHED! Man is it uglyyyyyyy.
I'm giving up on KOIN, I just now tried to re-enter it, it still comes up as 40 instead of locking onto 6 and it will not tune in.

LEE WOOD, WHERE ARE YOU? SOMEONE PLEASE RESET THE PSIP MACHINE!

I also tried taping "The District" last night on KOIN 40-1 via a T165 and Mits DVHS and it worked beautifully. I only hope this is a permanent situation and not an experiment like last time.

I'm also messed up with KOIN as well as FOX / UPN. I get UPN on 30-2, and FOX on 30-1. I can't draw KOIN in at all on my 6K. Hopefully, this is just a glitch during a hargware upgrade.

Just got a note from Lee, the PSIP was messed up, it should be fixed now.

It's fixed alright. Back to blank tape timeshifting. Thanks Lee, not.

I got the new Zenith HDR-230 today and started recording Alien Resurrection at 8:00. When I switched over later to see how the show looked it was SD, not HD. Was this a problem with my new receiver or did others notice this?

bertschb:

I can't answer your question, but I have one for you.

Can you record 6.1 on your Hdr-230?

tia

Lew

Yep!

I love the Zenith 230 so far. It's so nice to finally be able to timeshift all the HD programs that are on too late for me to watch. It's no Tivo but much better than the Samsung T165/JVC 30000 combo. Picture quality is outstanding.

Anyone else experiencing major breakups on the BB game on KATU tonight? I had to switch to the Analog channel it's so bad. I'm getting major video breakups and audio popping when the video blanks.

Yep. It's so bad I switched channels. Video and audio drop outs. Just another day in HD paradise.

Hello from the Mid-Valley,

We live about 65 miles south of the KOIN transmitter in the Cascade foothills around 800' elevation. I have a 8-bay bowtie on top of our two story house on a 15' mast (total height around 40'). I don't currently own a DTV receiver but am considering either the 151 or the Panny TU-DST52. We have a Mits 55" HDTV capable set, but only DVD and DISH (SD) to watch right now. I'm also considering the PVR921 when (if) it comes out, but am disappointed by the lack of HD programming available from DISH. The Portland analog stations are mere flickers of ghosts. Not much chance of locking a DTV signal is there?

We are also about 35 miles north of the Eugene DTV towers, with hilly terrain between us. I can resolve more of the analog stations from Eugene, but not sure if the hills and multi-path will kill their DTV stations.

I'd appreciate any comments or suggestions you might have, including to be patient for the evential retransmitter deployment of DTV.

thanks,

Mike

Hi Mike,

You my try going to a Circuit City or Best Buy and buying a receiver for evaluation. Then take it back after your test. (You have 30 days.)

I have a Dish 6000 which doesn't have very good ghost rejection (first generation chip set) so here in West Linn it struggles to maintain a lock.

The newer receivers are much much better at ghost rejection.

You may be surprised what you can receive. Digital is very unpredictable. I can't get any of the analog signals but the digital comes in.

I have also combined two 8 bay bow ties horizontally stacked to help with ghosting.

Let us know how you do.

Originally posted by scottcorinna
Hi Mike,

You my try going to a Circuit City or Best Buy and buying a receiver for evaluation. Then take it back after your test. (You have 30 days.)

I have a Dish 6000 which doesn't have very good ghost rejection (first generation chip set) so here in West Linn it struggles to maintain a lock.

The newer receivers are much much better at ghost rejection.

You may be surprised what you can receive. Digital is very unpredictable. I can't get any of the analog signals but the digital comes in.

I have also combined two 8 bay bow ties horizontally stacked to help with ghosting.

Let us know how you do.

Thanks for the encouragement. I was thinking of using Wal-Mart as my demo store (both STBs available from their web site, and I can return them to the Lebanon Wal-Mart if they bomb).

One question: how do you stack the two 8 bay bow ties? One in front of the other or one directly above the other on the mast?

Mike

I would also recommend an amp for the antenna. It boosted my signal strength about 50% which made a big diference for me because a couple of the stations were fairly weak. I bought a Channel Master (can't remember the model number) based on recommendations from this forum.

The HD basketball on KATU was an unmitigated disaster.

Just unfreaking unbelievable. Why do the bother wasting the electricity?

Now tonight I am trying to watch Fleetwood Mac on OPB and the sound is pulsing. So much for Portland being voted one of the "Key Digital" Cities in the Nation, their state of digital is pathetic!

Originally posted by mikehd


One question: how do you stack the two 8 bay bow ties? One in front of the other or one directly above the other on the mast?

Mike

Mount the the antennas side by side spaced about 4 feet apart (Play with the spacing to get the best results.) from the centerline of the antennas. Use a splitter/combiner to combine both antennas together. Make sure the cables from each antenna into the combiner are the same length.

If you need more gain you can stack the antennas vertically on the same mast.

I spent the better part of last summer goofing around with my set up.

Now if the locals go DTV on VHF we would have to rethink the whole thing.

So much for Portland being voted one of the "Key Digital" Cities in the Nation, their state of digital is pathetic!


The question is: Do the stations know they are putting out garbage or are they just blissfully ignorant? I used to report problems but of late I have just given up.

It is semi-ironic that KGW is (for me anyway) the most trouble-free digital station.

Does anyone have any news on when Comcast is going to add Hd to their Portland offerings. I am tired of trying to decide what mood my OTA reception will be in.
Thanks

Mike, haven't heard any Comcast updates yet but they have said this summer supposedly. We'll see. But the bigger question is will the stations actually upgrade their equipment just so they provide Comcast with good quality feeds? Since you live in Portland I suspect the vast majority of the "reception" problems you have are really just all the station equipment issues that seem to be ongoing with no end in sight. Until they invest the money in decent equipment I think we're doomed to this shoestring, jury rigged pain in the butt experience we've been going through from the beginning. Another thing about Comcast too, I believe I've read they have an ongoing stalemate with CBS and don't carry their HD feeds anywhere in the country maybe?

I watched all the Finals games on KATU and at least with the mits receiver it was bearable. Regular video breakups and audio dropouts but not enough to lose signal. I noticed Sat night that their feed had developed some vertical lines all across the screen and was worried it was going to really mess up the game last night. I even called the station a couple times yesterday to complain about it but the receptionist didn't seem very receptive and both times just said she'd "let them know".... a couple weeks ago I emailed Alan the engineer there and never even got a response from him either. Good to see they care huh? When the game came on last night the lines were gone but came back every time they cut in any local content like commercials etc, so at least it wasn't affecting the network feed.

ron

Ron, I watched the game last night and it was quite watchable. I had several breakups and toward the end of the game I had 3 massive pixel breakups/freezes and had to retune the channel to get it back.

What was with the audio for last night's game? My reciever indicate DD 5.1 but I only had sound out of the Mains. Previous games had surround effects. Anyone else notice this?

Larry, I agree with you that KGW seems to be the most stable of all of them, but I can't stand their SD station, they must give it all of 3 mb bandwidth. I wish KOIN & KGW would dump the subchannels. Heck, FOX & UPN look much better than KGW's SD channel.

Marissadad, with the "Circle Surround" ESPN uses in their productions, all I ever got was stereo-only on all the NBA Finals games and the last couple NHL games I watched too. No center channel is a definite bummer.

ron

I concur that the BB game last night was watchable. Annoying but watchable.

For me, watching disk-delayed via my HiPix, there were momentary picture/audio hiccups every minute or so and they seemed to always come in pairs separated by about 3 seconds.

Thanks for the responses. I am using a dtc-100 so my hope is that when the new boxes are available this summer and fall, they will have fewer bugs and allow me to get a new STB with a better tuner.

I do hear however the comments on transmission quality, and remember the old adage, "garbage in, garbage out".

I do realize that Comcast and CBS have issues, but I can't imagine they will persist beyond when the numbers of HD viewers make it in both entities best interest to come to an agreement.

I think I'll just call Comcast weekly to see if there is any news. I'm not naive enough to think it will make a difference, but it will at least make me feel better

Originally posted by R11
But the bigger question is will the stations actually upgrade their equipment just so they provide Comcast with good quality feeds? Since you live in Portland I suspect the vast majority of the "reception" problems you have are really just all the station equipment issues that seem to be ongoing with no end in sight. Until they invest the money in decent equipment I think we're doomed to this shoestring, jury rigged pain in the butt experience we've been going through from the beginning.
ron

Just to let you know. All the feeds to ATT/Comcast from the local stations are over Fiber Optic cables. Has been for a lot of years.

I have no idea what Comcast does with the signal at their end.

That's interesting and good news Scott. At least it eliminates one source of potential problems. But don't they just send a duplicate feed of their OTA signal to Comcast though (via the fiber)? It wouldn't remove DTV encoder issues would it?

ron

Comcast will get the same encoded feed that is sent to the HDTV transmitter.

The broadcasters don't want the meta-cast info to be filled in by Comcast.

Now, be aware that Comcast will also be converting and compressing the signal to fit onto their cable.

Who knows what the final signal will look like.

Thanks for the info Scott. It will be interesting to see just how they look in comparison. Seems like all the accounts I've read posted in the HDTV forum say that the cable HD locals appear to be basically indistinguishable from the OTA so we can keep our fingers crossed on that. And the way DirecTV is now stat-muxing and doubling up their HD channels on each transponder the national HD channels like HBO should look much better. BTW, what is the meta-cast info?

ron

Here's an overview of what MetaCast does.

http://www.evertz.com/proddesc/metacast(FS).html

From reading this thread it seems like Portland HDTV is far from ready for prime-time, pun intended. As someone considering getting into HD, would those of you in town who have already taken the plunge advise that I wait? If not, would I be better off with OTA, satellite (D* or E*?), or wait for Comcast to get on board? If OTA, have people had better luck with the Zenith 420 than the Samsung OTA receivers? (seems most problem posts about audio drops etc. are from those with Samsung gear)

Thanks for you advice.

-tony (beaverton)

Hey Tony,

You know that old joke about sex still being good even when it's bad? Well, I don't think I'd put PDX HDTV in quite that category but when it's good it is very good. And addictive, in that it's really easy to get spoiled by it when it is good. To the point where it really does make watching SD TV pretty disappointing. So, for all the bitching I do myself, I'm still very high on HD and would say that if you are the early adopter type and don't mind putting up with the trials and tribulations that go along with it sometimes, by all means take the plunge.

Comcast has said that they would be launching HD service here in town this summer. Since that's pretty much now, if I were you I think I might investigate that before spending the money on an OTA/sat receiver. I haven't seen any promos/mailers from them yet but imagine we will when they have it up and running. It's at least worth a couple of calls to them to see if you can find out when they will actually fire it up. If you do find any info out make sure you post back to let us know. Good luck.

ron

I got on antennaweb.org and it lists PBS, FOX, and NBC as yellow and CBS and ABC as red. I live off off of Macadam Ave. (in John's Landing -- 97239), so I was pretty suprised to see that some of the stations are listed red.

Can anyone recommend an antenna for my location? Indoor antenna is ideal. I'm thinking of buying a HD receiver this weekend, but if I can't get CBS and ABC, I'd probably just go back to SD [sigh].

I tried entering a Tigard and Hillsboro address at antennaweb and all the stations show up as yellow. That worries me. Does anyone know where the towers are? I always just assumed they were on top of Sylvan Hill and that I would get good reception from my house.

Thanks.

Try the Gemini ZHDTV1. (Also sold under other brands.) Amazon carries it. It's an indoor antenna that has gotten some good reviews.

If you get a good analog UHF signal the digital should work fine.

Circuit City has a good return policy on HDTV receivers if your reception sucks.

Good Luck.

Did anybody happen to watch any KOIN HD last night? After weeks of not watching any due to reruns I noticed there was a CSI on that I hadn't seen yet so I tuned in. The usual crappy pixelation from spreading their bandwidth too far but the audio was also breaking up. Kind of stuttering. I managed to watch the whole show but it was highly distracting. Both their SD channels seemed OK so I assume it was just their HD encoder acting up again.

ron

Ron,

I experienced the same audio "stuttering". Not as bad as it was a while back but still annoying.

David

I got it too, but since I had already seen it, I opted out of that one.

How about that stretch on FOX/UPN 30-02? What's up with that?

Originally posted by scottcorinna
Try the Gemini ZHDTV1. (Also sold under other brands.) Amazon carries it. It's an indoor antenna that has gotten some good reviews.


I tried this one (Zenith Silver Sensor) and the only stations I can get are NBC and PBS. They were both around 30-40% signal strength. I think I'm going to have to try a rooftop.

Does anyone know where I can buy a Channel Master 4221 w/ 7775 pre-amp locally? Preferably someplace with a good return policy.

Thanks.

This is in response to the fellow who asked
about Lebanon, Oregon reception.

I just put up my antenna on 2003/06/29 in Albany, Oregon. I'm using a Channel Master 3671 antenna. It's chimney mounted above my 2 story house. I attached a rotor, so I can pull in both Eugene and Portland. Tuner is the Samsung SIR-T165.

Here is what I get off the air in HD. I also get several standard digital sub-channels, and a slew of analog
channels, but we are interested in HD here so,
I'll only list those.

PBS 39 Corvallis
ABC 44 Eugene
NBC 17 Springfield
CBS 25 Eugene

ABC 43 Portland
NBC 46 Portland

What I have NOT been able to get so far is digital FOX from either Eugene or Portland. And I have not been able to get CBS out of Portland.

Shawn

Since some of the posts here are directed towards Eugene stations, I'll say whats going on here in PDX's southern brother.

17 NBC - I've called and talked to them on the phone. They have their towers up and running, fully operational by the end of July. And HDTV broadcasting will be all going by the end of the year.

25 CBS - Up and running, looking good, despite the occasional forgetting to flip back to HD.

31 FOX - I'm not sure exactly whats going on with them. Their tower is broadcasting online I believe, but its all 480i, and I've never seen anything HD (or "Enhanced"). I hate Fox anyways, so no loss there really. (until sports time)

39 PBS - They are up and running, look good, (although I'm not a big PBS/OPB watcher.

44 ABC - Up and running good as well. I recently had a Audio out of sync issue, but its all cleared up now. They've broadcasted sports programs and movies, almost all without a hitch.

So thats where we stand now, I can't wait for NBC to be broadcasting HD, as I'm a big Leno fan and Boomtown will be awesome to watch in HD. On another note, I'm not a letterman fan, but whats with his lazy butt not being brodcasted in HD? CBS seems to be the leader in HD, and to not have a late night show in HD when your competitor is seems rediculous. I'd watch more letterman just for the fact that it was in HD. Their loss.

Norco,

Sitting in Albany, Oregon, about 45 miles north of Eugene, I get all the other Eugene stations (analog and digital), except for 31 Fox.

Antennaweb shows 25 CBS broadcasting from the same direction as 31 Fox, and I get 25 CBS perfectly.

Do you know if 31 Fox has been offline recently. Or are they broadcasting at a lot less power than CBS? Or any other reason why I can't tune them in.

I have a similar problem with reception of Fox from Portland (about 70+ miles north of Albany). I can pull in ABC and NBC, but I can't pull in 30 Fox from Portland.

Shawn

I think its a power issue. I get a fine signal, but usually when I'm using my FusionHDTV program, at the top of the corner it tells me the station ID, and with fox, it always stays there, or flickers.

On another note, I'm not a letterman fan, but whats with his lazy butt not being brodcasted in HD? CBS seems to be the leader in HD, and to not have a late night show in HD when your competitor is seems rediculous. I'd watch more letterman just for the fact that it was in HD. Their loss.Letterman is scheduled to begin HD productions this September. Details in this thread (www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=216331).

ron

I envy you guys a bit...

I can only get OPB 39 as its a straight shot across the valley from my house in Lacomb (12 miles east of Lebanon).

I have a CM7775 UHF amplifier, CM4228 8 Bay Bowtie Antenna, and a CM rotator. The antenna is on top of a 10' mast that sits astride the peak of our house for a total height of ~30'. The STB is the Zenith 420.

The terrain is open around our house, but we're hemmed in to the north and south by fingers of the Cascade foothills. Not a whisper of signal from any of the DTV stations from PDX or EUG.

My buddy in Lewisburg (N of Corvallis) is in DTV heaven, as he gets all the Eugene stations.

I could pay Gene's Antenna Service to come out and tell me that I'm SOL, but I'll keep the $$ and invest in E* HDTV gear when it gets here.

In short, I'm SOL for OTA.

At least we have aDSL! :)

thanks,

Mike

I just moved back to my home in Hillsboro (Helvetia - map (http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?Pyt=Tmap&ed=g94BDup_0Tru6O4yebRDrsHeHMSkfo8F3CJkMF7scIhii00DtEQ9dh6va njsp4bs1qkWJ14X.mzlokvVkA6sDitQM7DRFeRZyw5YPE3WoeP_5pW5xzb5Z Rv.0ApVnZwErvo-&csz=Hillsboro,+OR+97124&country=us&cs=9&name=&desc=&poititle=&poi=&uz=97124&ds=n&BFKey=&BFCat=&BFClient=&mag=7&newmag=6)) after a 12 year absense. The place is trashed, but priorities are priorities. Due to trees, I have no hope of satellite and there is no cable here.

So I replaced the ancient VHF/UHF antenna with a Channel Master 4248 - $41 delivered from Consumer Direct URL (http://www.consumer-direct.com/detail.cfm?vpartno=CM4248&weight=25.00) - and raised the mast a couple of feet (there is a low hillside I need to get above and I am just doing so - any higher and I need to rethink the mount). I need to remove a fair amount of deciduous growth in front of the antenna and there are a fair number of Doug Firs. But for now, here is what I am getting through my RCA DTC 100 (viewed through an EVGA Personal Cinema on my PC till I get my Sony 10-HT going):

Channel Signal Strength
27 65-70 stable reception
30 82 stable reception
40 53-63 not stable
43 65-70 not quite stable
46 80-88 stable reception
48 no signal

Given what I am hearing about KOIN, I am not holding my breath for stable reception on 40. I hope that clearing out the nearby decidous growth will make ABC stable on 43. As to UPN on 48, it would be real nice to get it, but I see little hope as I am getting nada (though 49 comes in pretty well).

There seems to be a more multicasting here than in San Francisco, and I don't recall three subchannels in SFO. The traffic cam is a wonderful use of bandwidth :>) I also don't quite understand multicasting the same 4:3 program in both 4:3 and 16:9 (I don't quite buy the screen burn argument. How many receivers can't handle it?). And I wish that PBS transmitted 4:3 material as 4:3. Other than that, I will cope with commercial TV.

I was spoiled in SFO with satellite and a 12 mile straight shot to Sutro Tower.

Jacob

Hi Mikehd,

I had to find a map of the valley to get a good picture of Lacomb. You are about the same distance from Eugene 'as the crow flies" as Albany is. It sounds like you have a good setup. The CM Bowtie sure looks interesting. Sounds like you have a decent setup, so it sound like hills arein the way.

That said, I have been able to pull in ABC and NBC from portland, which is a lot further away, and there are hills around Salem. I am using the following setup. CM3671 UHF/VHF/FM (173 inches), mounted on a CM rotor, on the chimney. We have 2 stories and an attic, so the antenna is a good 3 stories off the ground. For good measure, I also have the CM7777 pre-amp.

However, even without the pre-amp, I am able to pull in the Eugene stations.

I have noticed that there is a bout a 10 to 12 degree "angle window" that is needed to pull in Eugene well.

So, what I'm wondering is, have you tried something other than a bow-tie for pulling in the Eugene stations?

Shawn

Shawn,

I calculated that I'm about 35 miles from the Eugene towers, and about 65 miles from the Portland towers. Those darn hills make it infinity effectively.

I've tried a Radio Shack Yagi UHF antenna as well. It has about 14 elements on the main shaft. The 8-Bay Bowtie was recommended as giving me the best chance as it has the best gain vs Yagi. I've also read that the Yagi is better for multipath, but thats not my problem here.

I'm tempted to buy a Big Yagi just to see if it doesn't tease out the signal. The BY would be like the CM4248/3023.

I'm expecting a Samsung SIRT-151X from Walmart tomorrow. Maybe it will be able to dig out the signal (but I'm not holding my breath).

The good news is that the Zenith can go back to Circuit City in Salem. Walmart will take the Samsung back in Albany.

Eventually even the low power transmitters (translators) will be DTV. Then I'll be able to pick them up. In about 3 years!

Mike

UPN has been down for some time. Sometimes UPN is broadcast on 30-02, it's hit or miss. WB should be coming online shortly but I don't know the channel, is it 33? Anyone know?

no improvements. Can only get OPB DTV out of Corvallis...

oh well..

For anyone in the Beaverton area...

What percentage of OTA HD broadcasts would you say you get without any hiccups? (let's say that 'hiccups' = audio stuttering and/or video dropouts that would be noticed by your significant other)

Trying to decide if HD is really worth getting into yet...

-tony

For those who can get the PDX or EUG DTV stations...

Are the station logos cut off in the lower right corner?

Do you see this on other content? Like on OPB, I noticed that the names of the persons interviewed on a recent program were offscreen about 1/3rd.

My set had overscan set to safe minimums, and I've seen this on a friend's set on other stations, so am curious if the stations are not doing something quite right, or... is it that we're not getting a full 1080 lines (more like 960).

Mike

Logos are OK on my set. OPB does a lot of zooming 4:3 material to fit the 16:9 frame so the tops and bottoms are signifcantly reduced. It's like using Full Zoom on my 6000.

Tony, I'm about a mile east of 217 at the bottom of the West Slope area between BH Highway and Canyon and my reception is generally fine. The majority of the issues I have are not reception related, but rather DTV encoder/transmitter problems that the stations have (that and the fact that many of them split their allocated bandwidth with multiple channels which causes pixelation in fast movement). For the most part the equipment they are using is old, outdated and broken down. And without any significant revenue source from the DTV to fund upgrades they are understandably reluctant to do any. That being said, I still think it's well worth while to get the OTA capability for the HD content and upconverted SD content, warts and all.

To answer your question more specifically though:

KGW - When they first started out they had serious audio issues which they seem to have fixed. Pretty much smooth sailing on the HD feed but very pixelated SD feed.

KOIN - Generally good except they seem to have sporadic issues which pop up (but they usually get them corrected pretty quickly). They do have some pixelation on their HD feed when the content pushes the limit (multicasting again including an absolutely useless traffic cam channel...).

KATU - Currently sad. Since around the beginning of the year they have had some serious problems with audio and video dropouts. Although they seem to have reduced the severity of them the last couple months I still get them regularly. But they are now very brief and not nearly as bothersome at least.

KPTV and KPDX - These have been changing around frequently. They do have problems and the Chief engineer there has told me not to expect any substantial improvements until they get into their PSIP project for the DTV transmitters. He said that was supposed to be scheduled sometime in August I believe.

OPB - I don't watch enough of them to really say because I never know what's going to be on. The HD content seems to look pretty good when I flip into it and the upconverted stuff isn't too bad either. Seems like I hear complaints from a number of people here and I think it may be reception related issues due to the low power signal they put out?

So... I guess the question comes down to whether or not you have a video nut/understanding significant other? ;)

ron

Hey folks in the Albany, Lacomb, Corvallis, Lebanon, Jefferson, Oregon (OR) area. I've started a new thread for those of us trying to pull in both Portland and Eugene stations in this towns mid-way between these two markets.

Nearly Official Albany and Corvallis, OR DTV Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=276307)

Shawn

Tony- I live a couple blocks from 185th and Cornell. I have no reception issues at all. The broadcasters, as R11 says, have their problems, sometimes more and sometimes less. As a percentage good performance for me is in high nineties, however I do notice the glitches. There have been for me only 2 programs I could not stand to watch in the last four months and was forced to watch on cable. Content is another issue as well as 4:3 up-res vs true 16:9.

None of the B&M's that I know of show anything other than the hd loops, which are fine, but not what I prefer to watch at home. You really need to see HD at some ones home. ( I'm not ready to invite you over just yet however).

Is it worth it at this time? For me a resounding YES!
If you can afford it, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

good luck

Lew

Thanks guys. I think I'm ready to take the HD plunge. If the HD DirecTivo were out, I'd already have done it.

Now the question is whether to do "just" OTA or to drop Comcast for DirecTV with HD...

-tony

tbacos - a recommendation I have is that you buy a OTA receiver, and enjoy HDTV for awhile. If your in a good market too, aka one that has good reception and the stations don't mess up all the time, you'll enjoy the HD feed. Then, when DirecTivo HD hits, you can buy it, or if its a little bit too much in the beginning, wait a couple extra months to let the price drop a bit. Meanwhile you still are watching HD, all your major networks, and so you would only be missing out on a little HD, rather than all the HD as you are now. If/when you do decide to switch to DirecTv, you could save the OTA receiver for maybe a new HD set in the bedroom, ;-). Good luck on whatever path you may end up deciding. I personally know some HD is a heck of a lot better than none! Whenever I see SD stuff now I always think Ahhh, think how much better it would be in HD!