Portland, OR - OTA [Text View] - Page 30

skihoodoo

03-18-09, 01:12 PM

i have been given the okey to post this info from my source

"Universal Sports" will soon be carried on the secondary stream of
KRCW-DT (32-2). We are targeting mid-April as the official launch.
However, we are attempting to get it on perhaps as early as next week -
but this is not a sure thing. (If we are able to launch early, Comcast
may not include it on their systems until mid-April.)

Yesterday, we were doing some testing. Although the sub-channel was
"on-air", it was not added to the PCIP tables, so most consumer
converter boxes and receivers would not have decoded it properly, if at
all. We did experience some problems with our primary stream during HD
programming from 7:00 pm - 11:30 pm for which we are adjusting to
prevent from happening again. Expect testing to happen from time to
time between now and the launch of the channel.

If we are able to put it on next week, there will be a delay in getting
the information out of the usual listing services, including Tribune
Media Services. Be assured we will get the information to them as
quickly as possible.

At this time, we have no plans for a third program stream.

cmchotmail

03-18-09, 02:41 PM

DigaDo

03-18-09, 03:00 PM

Hello all - new here.

I'm new to OTA HDTV and just bought an HDTV w/ digital tuner. I mostly have it for blu-ray movies, and don't want to subscribe to cable/satellite, but am hoping to enjoy free OTA local channels in HD.

I'm in the Sellwood neighborhood of S.E. Portland, w/ a 2-story house.

My question is, can anyone tell me what kind of antenna setup I'll be wanting/needing to get a strong signal from the major channels here? I hate having to fool around with a set-top antenna for each channel - I'd like to be able to browse clearly w/o getting up to adjust it.

I'd be willing to buy/install an antenna on the roof, but is the signal so strong here that an indoor or set-top would work just fine?

Thanks for any help/suggestions.

-Chris

Start with an unfolded standard sized #1 paperclip and run the TV's channel scan. If you reliably receive around two dozen digital sub-channels you probably don't need a rooftop antenna. There are several inexpensive (under $10) VHF/UHF indoor antennas that may also serve you well. In my North Portland location I may use a paperclip or RCA ANT111 or ANT115 antennas with similar results.

If you don't receive around two dozen digital sub-channels then you may need an attic or rooftop antenna. Point a directional antenna toward the intersection of Skyline Blvd/West Burnside Street, the general location of the local antenna farms.

The first photo shows the Staples paperclip antenna in the original folded configuration and unfolded for use. The second photo shows the paperclip antenna fitted to a Zenith DTT901 converter box. The third photo shows the RCA ANT115 to the front and the RCA ANT111 to the rear. The ANT115 and Zenith DTT feed an analog-tuner Panasonic DVD recorder not seen in the photo; the ANT111 feeds the Panasonic DVD recorder at the top of the stack. The ANT115/Zenith is tuned to a specific channel for scheduled repeating recordings; the ANT111/Panasonic records from all the OTA digital/analog channels. This duplication resolves occasional scheduled recording conflicts. The three lower recorders are dedicated to TCM; excepting the one at the bottom may be switched to analog and digital "cable-ready" channels.

Konrad2

03-19-09, 01:29 AM

> "this" on 2-2 had been a pretty good addition

Except for the fscking compression artifacts.

There is only room for 1 HD xor 2 SD per channel.

Konrad2

03-19-09, 01:37 AM

Chris writes:

> I'm in the Sellwood neighborhood of S.E. Portland, w/ a 2-story house.

Go to tvfool.com, enter your location, post the resulting .png image.

> is the signal so strong here

There is more to it than signal strength.

DigaDo writes:

> Start with an unfolded standard sized #1 paperclip

How many packets does FEC fail to correct using your paperclip?

Kib

03-19-09, 12:34 PM

It doesn't look like we'll get 6-2 alternate NCAA basketball tourney feed...:(

Lee Wood, we miss you !!!

Lee Wood

03-19-09, 12:53 PM

Start with an unfolded standard sized #1 paperclip and run the TV's channel scan. If you reliably receive around two dozen digital sub-channels you probably don't need a rooftop antenna. There are several inexpensive (under $10) VHF/UHF indoor antennas that may also serve you well. In my North Portland location I may use a paperclip or RCA ANT111 or ANT115 antennas with similar results.

If you don't receive around two dozen digital sub-channels then you may need an attic or rooftop antenna. Point a directional antenna toward the intersection of Skyline Blvd/West Burnside Street, the general location of the local antenna farms.

The first photo shows the Staples paperclip antenna in the original folded configuration and unfolded for use. The second photo shows the paperclip antenna fitted to a Zenith DTT901 converter box. The third photo shows the RCA ANT115 to the front and the RCA ANT111 to the rear. The ANT115 and Zenith DTT feed an analog-tuner Panasonic DVD recorder not seen in the photo; the ANT111 feeds the Panasonic DVD recorder at the top of the stack. The ANT115/Zenith is tuned to a specific channel for scheduled repeating recordings; the ANT111/Panasonic records from all the OTA digital/analog channels. This duplication resolves occasional scheduled recording conflicts. The three lower recorders are dedicated to TCM; excepting the one at the bottom may be switched to analog and digital "cable-ready" channels.

Paper Clips work pretty good, but a 10-inch piece of solid wire works better at NE 21st and Sandy.

Kib

03-19-09, 01:22 PM

Lee Wood, we miss you !!!

Guess I should have said that metaphorically...

None the less, I miss the feed.

TalkingRat

03-19-09, 01:53 PM

Love the decorative antenna! Good to see you again, Lee. Any insider news you can share?

Lee Wood

03-19-09, 06:11 PM

Love the decorative antenna! Good to see you again, Lee. Any insider news you can share?Most of the 'insider news' I have doesn't involve KATU or Portland as much as the other Fisher stations that I am working with to get through the DTV transition and to make improvements where needed. And, thanks for doing the leg work on who is shutting down when. I have updated the first post accordingly.

cmchotmail

03-19-09, 10:21 PM

Paper Clips work pretty good, but a 10-inch piece of solid wire works better at NE 21st and Sandy.
I do have a standard set of TV-antenna rabbit-ears around here...would that not be better than a paper-clip or other piece of wire (or is there something about the design of rabbit ears that's wrong for picking up a digital signal, while a paperclip is OK)?

(Haven't moved in yet, and haven't set the TV up yet, so I'm unable to test any of this out at the moment. I'm researching so as to know what best to do once it's all set up and ready to go.)

Thanks again, for all the help, guys!

-C

Lee Wood

03-20-09, 01:15 AM

I do have a standard set of TV-antenna rabbit-ears around here...would that not be better than a paper-clip or other piece of wire (or is there something about the design of rabbit ears that's wrong for picking up a digital signal, while a paperclip is OK)?

(Haven't moved in yet, and haven't set the TV up yet, so I'm unable to test any of this out at the moment. I'm researching so as to know what best to do once it's all set up and ready to go.)

Thanks again, for all the help, guys!

-C

This is one of the challenges that will face Portland viewers on June 12/13 versus today. Currently all of the Portland DTV stations are on UHF channels (frequencies) which have pretty short wavelengths. That is why a 10-inch piece of wire works better that a typical set of rabbit ears antenna that is two feet long and intended to pick up VHF frequencies (channels 2-13). When KGW, KOPB and KPTV move back to their VHF channels on June 12/13 you will need a longer length of antenna (wire) to pickup those transmissions and rabbit ears should work pretty good in the local area. But, to pick up KATU, KOIN, KPXG, KNMT, KRCW or KPDX you will need an antenna that favors UHF channels. In short, what works today will have to adapt to the changes on June 12/13.

sasquatchgeoff

03-20-09, 03:44 AM

Hi,
Thanks to everyone for this forum. I just got the HD Homerun ethernet TV tuner and a indoor powered directional antenna.

Here is the setup:
Zyxel Zywall 2WG Wireless 54G router
Windows Vista 64 Ult SP1
HD Homerun 2-tuner ATSC device (see silicondust dot com)
Rosewill RMS-DA8300 Directional Antenna

Turned Windows Firewall off.

HDHR connected to router via ethernet port.
Antenna w/booster connected to HDHR tuner "0"
Computers on network see the HDHR.

Installed HDHR setup, saw both tuners, no icons with green or red tick marks - did a scan and got 90-100% signal strength on all channels (3-69) but zero signal quality and symbol.

When HDHR setup was first installed, WMC saw tuner and was able to complete the guide setup where I was taken to signal strength - no signal strength in WMC.

I live in Portland, OR within 3 miles of downtown. People in my neighborhood are getting good signals with a paper clip. I tried this directly into the HDHR and got about 60% signal strength on all channels with 0 quality and symbol, as with the directional antenna with booster.

Ran the address on TV fool and shows I should be getting at least one or two channels.

I am stumped - any help appreciated.

Phantom Gremlin

03-20-09, 05:20 AM

Antenna w/booster connected to HDHR tuner "0"

If people around you are getting reception by using a paper clip, you probably don't need a "booster". Do you mean an amplified antenna or do you mean an pre-amp added to the antenna output?

Try the paper clip. Or try a good indoor antenna like the "Silver Sensor".

Also make sure that the RF path is good. Do you have another tuner (e.g. an HDTV with tuner) that you can substitute for the HDHR? Maybe the coax to the HDHR is bad?

DigaDo

03-20-09, 04:53 PM

Hi,
Thanks to everyone for this forum. I just got the HD Homerun ethernet TV tuner and a indoor powered directional antenna.

I live in Portland, OR within 3 miles of downtown. People in my neighborhood are getting good signals with a paper clip. I tried this directly into the HDHR and got about 60% signal strength on all channels with 0 quality and symbol, as with the directional antenna with booster.

Ran the address on TV fool and shows I should be getting at least one or two channels.

I am stumped - any help appreciated.

Your amplifier is probably overloading your tuner.

Today my Zenith DTT901 CECB ($9.99 with NTIA coupon at Bi-Mart or KMart) and a paperclip antenna ($2.99 for a box of 1,000 at Staples) is tuning 25 channels.

hilladen

03-20-09, 07:43 PM

His amplifier is like the tower built for Gozer the Gozerian causing a great increase in the ghost signal activity.

DigaDo

03-20-09, 11:31 PM

His amplifier is like the tower built for Gozer the Gozerian causing a great increase in the ghost signal activity.

"Who ya gonna call?"

Konrad2

03-21-09, 05:14 PM

skihoodoo

03-24-09, 12:18 PM

looks like ion 22.1 is now in 720p so looks like ion hd has launched in portland

TalkingRat

03-24-09, 01:16 PM

looks like ion 22.1 is now in 720p so looks like ion hd has launched in portland

Cool! I was beginning to wonder what happened to that 3/16 date. Now all they need is something besides infomercials. :)

sasquatchgeoff

03-26-09, 02:28 AM

> Zyxel Zywall 2WG Wireless 54G router
> Windows Vista 64 Ult SP1
> HD Homerun 2-tuner ATSC device (see silicondust dot com)
> Rosewill RMS-DA8300 Directional Antenna

> HDHR connected to router via ethernet port.

Can the HDHR talk to the computer without going over the
wireless link? Wireless may have trouble keeping up, which
may be a problem once you get things working. A cat6
cable is very inexpensive (hint hint).

> 90-100% signal strength on all channels (3-69) but zero
> signal quality and symbol.

Either your signals are all horrifically bad, or your HDHR
is having a problem. (or the software is lying)

> People in my neighborhood are getting good signals with
> a paper clip. I tried this directly into the HDHR and
> got about 60% signal strength on all channels with 0
> quality and symbol, as with the directional antenna with booster.

An amplified antenna so close to the towers is likely to overload
itself and/or the HDHR. 100% signal strength might or might not be
overloaded. Anything less than 100% signal strength means the HDHR
is not overloaded, but the amplifier might be. Even with overload
I'd expect quality to be better than 0. A paper clip with no amp
is unlikely to overload the HDHR. I wouldn't expect to get good
reception using a paper clip, but it should be better than 0.

Try the silicondust tech support forum. You might have a bad
power supply, a bad firmware load, or a broken unit.

If you post your tvfool results we can recommend antennas.

Thanks for the reply - after disconnecting from the router and bringing the rig and antenna upstairs I was able to get one channel if I held the antenna just right - only with antenna line amp though - had to RMA the silicon dust unit cuz it was doing no good sitting here looking good - after checking TV fool here are the graphs pre and post 6-12-09 (digital only)

http://www.tvfool.com/modeling/tmp/d3c9364bd6/Radar-Digital.png

http://www.tvfool.com/modeling/tmp/d3c9364bd6/Radar-Digital2.png<br>

looks like I am on the other side of the volcanic tuff cone known as Mt Tabor and that is a tremendous signal blocker - please tell me I don't know what I am talking about.

I figure a roof antenna will help greatly - am I wrong?

Thanks for everything

- geoff

skihoodoo

03-26-09, 04:51 PM

krcw is testing dt2 universal sports right now i can see it will update when and if testing ends or if i get more info
update 3:30 looks like the test is now over from my info this feed will be up an down till early next week

TalkingRat

03-26-09, 07:54 PM

Konrad2

03-26-09, 08:04 PM

Geoff,

OK, the good news is that the main Portland stations are
close enough together that you can use a highly directional
antenna and get all of them. Highly directional gets
you more signal strength, less multipath and less
interference.

The bad news is that they are 2edge. Play with the antenna
height on tvfool and see how much extra height helps.
Ideally you would like LOS for all the stations you
care about. On the other hand you probably don't want to
build a 500 foot tower.

Wikipedia says:
"The peak of Mount Tabor is 630 ft (192 m) in elevation,
about two-thirds of this is prominence since the surrounding
land is about 200 ft (60 m) elevation."

If it were me, I'd get an XG91 for UHF and either YA-1713 or
Y10-7-13 for VHF-HI. If you don't like the XG91, look at the
PR8800, CM4228, or DB8. I have the PR8800 and YA-1713, they work
well but in hindsight I think the XG91 would be a little better.
You might also see what sort of yagi with corner reflector
Weingard and Channel Master have these days. Something
similar to the XG91.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html

Word is you can get an extra section or 2 of directors to make
the XG91 even stronger. If you go this route, make sure you
still have 4-5 degrees of beamwidth.

> I figure a roof antenna will help greatly - am I wrong?

You are right, it should help a lot.

Trip in VA

03-26-09, 08:08 PM

My CM7000 apparently found 32-2 while it was in standby, and was tuned to it when I turned it on. Of course, it didn't show me what station I was on, it just gave me that full screen "no signal" message. I did a quick channel up/down to see what was going on, but I wonder how many CM7000 owners will get freaked out by the "no signal" message, when testing like this happens for new -2 channels coming on.

Wouldn't the same thing happen in cases of DX? The tuner detects distant signals overnight that don't normally come in, then wake up in the morning to a bunch of new "No Signal" stations?

- Trip

Phantom Gremlin

03-26-09, 08:35 PM

TalkingRat

03-26-09, 09:47 PM

Wouldn't the same thing happen in cases of DX? The tuner detects distant signals overnight that don't normally come in, then wake up in the morning to a bunch of new "No Signal" stations?

- Trip

The only DX I've ever gotten was analog. It could be a problem where DX is more common, but I think the CECBs that automatically add new stations also delete them when they lose PSIP. When KORS started up last October, the signal was too weak to hold, so it came and went every few weeks on the Pal. The CM7000 added it only once during the months of weak signal, but when the signal came on for good (January?), the CM found it the same time as the Pal.

Subchannel 32-2 is different -- strong signal with some PSIP data -- time, station ID, program title and summary. On the Zat it shows now/next, and on the CM, it shows current info, not the guide. 32-2 was around last Spring; it stopped transmitting a couple months before I got my first CECB, but the PSIP data was still being broadcast.

TalkingRat

03-26-09, 10:03 PM

Geoff,

You could also consider paying Comcast (or whoever it is in your neighborhood) their tribute of about $10/mo. Then you can move on with your life.

I struggled with signal strength and multipath a few years ago, then finally gave in and paid Comcast. They've been quite reliable.

But since other people in the neighborhood get signals with a paper clip, I think I'd grab a longer coax cable and try a few different spots in the room. That was where my antenna surprises came in, with the middle of the room or off-angle aiming getting the bounced signals better than pointing at the towers. Nothing to lose, you get more local subchannels OTA, and the quality is better most of the time. Comcast digital didn't lose the audio, but the picture broke up about every 5 minutes. I am willing to put up with the occasional hassle, to save $126/year.

TalkingRat

03-29-09, 03:55 AM

I see I have lost KOPB, and don't see any notice online about their being down. [update: KOPB was back this morning.] Digital TV is a lot less reliable than analog. KOXO-CA is running a test pattern -- where 16.4 Jewelry used to be -- and KOXI-CA is off the air with no info telling me what will be there. I still don't have KPDX back yet.

Konrad2

03-29-09, 01:00 PM

> I see I have lost KOPB, and don't see any notice online
> about their being down.

Usually if I have problems with KOPB 27 it is for several days
at a time. Lately I've had occasional problems with KOPB but
just a show here or there, so something is different this time.

KOPB came in fine for me yesterday (sat), and again this
morning (9:12am sun), both analog and digital. Are you still
not getting them?

> Digital TV is a lot less reliable than analog.

Agreed!

What can we do about this? Broadcast TV is an important
method of communication, for example the info about
road closures, flight and train cancellations, etc.
during the "artic blast" this winter.

> KOXO (16.4) is running a test pattern,

At least that isn't a reception problem. And I'm
still seeing bogus data streams from several stations.

> and I still don't have KPDX back yet.

Have you tried a higher gain antenna?

You might try filtering out VHF-LO and FM with a
HLSJ diplexor. (Or all of VHF using a UVSJ,
but you'll need VHF-HI after the switchover.)

KPXG 22 reception has been very good lately, except for
yesterday, when it was terrible.

KATU 43 has been having problems lately off and on.

TalkingRat

03-29-09, 04:30 PM

I had updated my post, rather than add a new one. KOPB was back by 7:30 am. It had been out at around half past midnight.

No extraordinary effort over the half-power KPDX. In 75 days, it will be as reliable as Fox. KPDX analog is acceptable now that they've cut power, but I'm out of the habit of looking for what's on.

KOXO-CA is an apparent new addition on KORS-CA -- 16.4 was where Jewelry was. 16.1 has a frozen frame, and 16.3 has no station ID, so only 16.2 is working while they make their changes.

I don't know that we can do anything about digital reliability, other than ask stations to post when something may affect reception.

I have no problems with ION or KATU. KOIN has garbled sound in prime time, but they are working on it. CW's audio cutout is resolved by using the Zat CECB.

Phantom Gremlin

03-29-09, 08:01 PM

Digital TV is a lot less reliable than analog.

I could be wrong, but I expect this to change once analog goes away. Right now digital is more of a "hobby" to the stations. In a few months digital will be all they have!

TalkingRat

03-29-09, 08:57 PM

I could be wrong, but I expect this to change once analog goes away. Right now digital is more of a "hobby" to the stations. In a few months digital will be all they have!

I do hope that too, Phantom. For now,it is not a hobby as much as doing two jobs and getting paid for one.

skihoodoo

03-30-09, 01:14 AM

did anyone during this time see if ch10 was switched to digital for testing i know that sounds like what koac in corvallis did when they where testing down here to make sure the transmitter was working before the switch date

TalkingRat

03-30-09, 10:18 AM

I looked when I first lost KOPB digital, and Ch 10 was transmitting analog. I should have checked the upstairs TV to see if it was just a power reduction, but it was late.

KORS came back with JTV still on 16.4, so I don't know what that KOXO test pattern was all about.

skihoodoo

03-30-09, 08:26 PM

speer360

03-31-09, 11:47 PM

Any "news" of any other subchannels comin to the PDX stations? Like KOIN (6-2??) and Fox (12-2 or 49-2)??

KPDX or KPTV are suppose to be getting ".2 network" when it launches "sometime in Spring 2009"

deviationer

04-01-09, 01:54 PM

oh look ANOTHER problem with koin. For the past 3 tues NCIS has been completely unwatchable, yet CSI LV records just fine on thurs.

Koin is such a joke

TalkingRat

04-03-09, 02:47 PM

due to I/E requirements krcw dt2 is unlikely to launch this week because they have to get it on monday before 7am to comply with I/E requirements for the week I/E programing for univ. sports is MON-WED 7-8 AM something called "Safari Tracks"

It sounds like their 'week' is defined as a particular 7 day period? I had thought they'd be within the rules if they transmitted 3 hours of E/I within 7 days of starting. If stations have to report on a fixed weekly schedule like Sun-Sat or Mon-Sun, that will make adding subchannels more complicated.

Does this mean they will start up 32.2 within the next few days?

skihoodoo

04-03-09, 04:40 PM

It sounds like their 'week' is defined as a particular 7 day period? I had thought they'd be within the rules if they transmitted 3 hours of E/I within 7 days of starting. If stations have to report on a fixed weekly schedule like Sun-Sat or Mon-Sun, that will make adding subchannels more complicated.

Does this mean they will start up 32.2 within the next few days?
krcw has a reporting week of MON-SUN(monday at 5am to be exact) guide data is now reflecting the start of 32.2 as happening on mon at 6 am and i can confirm that is what i am hearing from 2 different sources only thing that could not be correct is the exact time it gets turned on after 5 but before 7 am

my source said i could post this
"That all systems are "go" for a Monday launch of Universal Sports (baring the unforseen) and that we will be doing a change of branding the same day"

TalkingRat

04-03-09, 06:57 PM

Skihoodoo, thanks for the news. Is the rebranding for USS? Hopefully not another name for WB/CW.

skihoodoo

04-03-09, 09:58 PM

Skihoodoo, thanks for the news. Is the rebranding for USS? Hopefully not another name for WB/CW.

all i will say is it has nothing to do with 32.2

x43x

04-04-09, 02:40 AM

Who's your source skihoodoo? I happen to work in master control up here in Seattle where we switch KRCW, so I know all the players. I wonder if I have restrictions for what I can share?

TalkingRat

04-04-09, 01:49 PM

Well, if it's logo it makes a lot of sense, assuming they are combining station number with affiliation. The current logo doesn't have the station number in it, and their website address doesn't have CW in it.

I mean, compare our logo to Denver's:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5d/Portlandcw.png/120px-Portlandcw.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8e/KWGN2.png

I learned on Wiki that the KRCW call letters stand for RoseCity CW

[adding.. . I suppose they could put a rose in it, but no matter what, it needs more than one color!]

x43x

04-04-09, 03:05 PM

Its more than just a logo. Total rebranding. We've got a lot of promotional material to change Sunday night. Thankfully I'll be on vacation!

skihoodoo

04-04-09, 06:57 PM

Its more than just a logo. Total rebranding. We've got a lot of promotional material to change Sunday night. Thankfully I'll be on vacation!

X43X is right its a total rebrand
one thing i will confirm is krcw will still be the call sign

go to portlands32.com if you want to find the new brand its posted there

123HDTV

04-05-09, 03:42 PM

All Tribune stations are rebranding to wipe any connection to the CW brand. It started in NY/LA and is moving through the rest of the properties.

cmchotmail

04-05-09, 08:44 PM

Hi all,

New to this stuff.

I have an older Sony 720p HDTV that has no built in digital/HD tuner.

I'd like to pick up OTA HDTV via antenna and am wondering if I can buy one of the used Dish Network HDTV receivers (like the "Dish 811 HDTV") that I see on craigslist to function as my OTA HDTV tuner. Can I do this w/o a Dish Network account?

Thanks.

-C

skihoodoo

04-06-09, 10:15 AM

for people that have not turned on there tvs yet the new brand name for krcw is northwest 32 tv (nw32tv)

also universal sports has launched on 32.2

TalkingRat

04-06-09, 10:16 PM

They seem to have quite a bit of variety on 32.2. TV Guide hasn't added the station to the Portland list yet, but Titan has.

But imagine that, the logo is still green. Will other stations in the NW also rebrand to NWxx?

hilladen

04-07-09, 12:35 AM

Can someone give me a rundown on channel 16? I can see it exists on the guide, I can see what is on it in the guide but I can not actually get the channel. I looked back on previous posts on the channel and I am now confused.

123HDTV

04-07-09, 11:53 AM

scowl

04-07-09, 12:21 PM

They seem to have quite a bit of variety on 32.2. TV Guide hasn't added the station to the Portland list yet, but Titan has.

The compression on 32-2 is nothing I could put up with for very long. The video quality is worse than a VHS tape, possibly the worst I've seen since KGW had their SD feed on a third subchannel.. I can't imagine watching sports on it.

DigaDo

04-07-09, 03:28 PM

Ch. 16 apparently doesn't have it's transmitter on the cluster up at Sylvan. They're SE of the Sylvan hill on Mt. Scott. Folks on the west side with antenna's pointed to Sylvan will have a tough time getting reception because the side null of the antenna.

No wonder I've been having such problems with KOXI-DT 16.3 in North Portland. I've now reoriented my RCA ANT115 feeding my Zenith DTT901 that feeds an analog tuner Panasonic DMR-ES15 DVD Recorder.

Will these Watch TV channels be moving to Sylvan in the future?

TalkingRat

04-07-09, 03:30 PM

Scowl, it depends on the comparison. To me, all stations look better than their analog counterparts. If I'd watch a snowy soccer match on analog, it looks better on blurry 16.3, and even better on 32.2. Having SD options doubles the viewer choice. Of course, if I got my variety from pay tv, I'd want only HD locals.

I do have trouble with 32.2 motion, but I have the same problem with 32.1 motion. I switch to Zenith or Zat CECB, and get a solid lock. Today I'm watching figure skating, and the PQ is as good as I'd get on major network analog. It looks like it was shot with an HD camera.

It is disappointing that stations can't manage 2 subchannels without one of them suffering. Lately, KGW 8.2 weather report is barely watchable. But as long as the primary channel is not seriously compromised, I like being able to watch SD subchannels.

scowl

04-07-09, 03:45 PM

Scowl, it depends on the comparison. To me, all stations look better than their analog counterparts.
Then you never saw KGW's SD subchannel. It was only good for laughs:

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/nbc-sd.jpg

Today I'm watching figure skating, and the PQ is as good as I'd get on major network analog. It looks like it was shot with an HD camera.
It wouldn't to me.

Last night I tried to watch a bicycle race and was laughing at how the compression was turning the wheels of the bikes into flickering gray squares in distant shots. I have never seen MPEG compression be so cruel to content before.

TalkingRat

04-07-09, 04:08 PM

Well, I don't count tests, it must be an art to tweak subchannels.

I did see a few seconds of the bike race, and it was bad on my CM7000.

123HDTV

04-07-09, 10:08 PM

Will these Watch TV channels be moving to Sylvan in the future?

This I do not know.

hilladen

04-07-09, 11:00 PM

Thanks for the info, now we just need to update the info on the first post.

Lee Wood

04-08-09, 01:10 PM

Thanks for the info, now we just need to update the info on the first post.
Post 1 has been updated.

xsrsmithx

04-08-09, 01:46 PM

Didn't the CW just change it's name? I thought I saw this on channel 8 last night advertising the news on the CW has changed to (can't remember what it is called now)

Steve

JeffinWesternWA

04-08-09, 02:21 PM

My conversation w/ KORS IS they are at least moving "up the pole" w/ a new xmitter in June, that should help reception of digital chs 16-1 (simulcast of ch 35, KORK-CA, I think the HSN network, .2 is BTV - music channel w/videos, .3 is simulcast of ch 20 "camas" KOXI - CA affiliate of America One Network - I live in Camas and can't get it hardly though as station broadcast somewhere from the north behind me ..and, 16.4 is Jewelry Tv - like HSN just jewelry selling,.... 16.2 is decent to listen/watch on occasion and .3 does have some decent shows on weekend AM's and movies during the week, ....my antenna wants a more westerly vice SW orientation to get KORS vice the Sylvan area stations from the eastern Vancouver/Western Camas area.

So, IS KOIN ever gonna get a 6.2? And when willl FOX/KPDX get a subchannel? Seems logical those two would be next??

Will the moving of some channels from UHF to VHF help? (reception)...

crossbeaux

04-08-09, 02:43 PM

Didn't the CW just change it's name? I thought I saw this on channel 8 last night advertising the news on the CW has changed to (can't remember what it is called now)

Steve

Look back a few posts in this thread.

Lee Wood

04-08-09, 03:10 PM

So, IS KOIN ever gonna get a 6.2? And when willl FOX/KPDX get a subchannel? Seems logical those two would be next??

Meredith, owner of KPTV and KPDX, has affiliated with the Dot-2 Network:
http://www.dot2network.com/national/press/firstaffils

Programming information:
http://www.dot2network.com/national/

Scheduled to be launched "mid-year".

JeffinWesternWA

04-08-09, 04:57 PM

.2 network seems decent, guess we wait till the xmitter for KPDX is fixed, etc., after the 12 June date (?),.2 network seems better than KATU's .2 "This"...Retro tv network iaw the link/article covers 40% of homes, THAT would also be a great addition for a subchannel (maybe KOIN?) around here

So what IS the word w/ KOIN and a subchannel?

Trip in VA

04-08-09, 04:58 PM

Meredith, owner of KPTV and KPDX, has affiliated with the Dot-2 Network:

That of course assumes that it ever launches. The launch date has been pushed back multiple times and they've said they want 30% of the country covered before launching. Well, if I was a TV station manager, I wouldn't put any money into a network until said network was on the air.

This TV launched in November with two affiliates. In six months time, they managed to gain coverage of more than 60% of the country. Maybe .2 could learn something from that.

- Trip

JeffinWesternWA

04-08-09, 05:03 PM

The article infered that .2 WAS up and runnin (read the links above) ???? What about a sub ch for KOIN (6.2) ?

RETRO TV network also sounds great, wish we'd get that one...

Trip in VA

04-08-09, 05:05 PM

The article infered that .2 WAS up and runnin (read the links above) ????

Whatever it inferred, it's not. Lee's message clearly stated it's not.

Who knows if it ever will be up and running at this point. I'm not holding my breath.

- Trip

Konrad2

04-09-09, 01:37 AM

Trip in VA

04-09-09, 01:42 AM

>> Total rebranding.

> the new brand name for krcw is northwest 32 tv (nw32tv)

According to article 1 they are staying on channel 33 after
the transition. If this is a "total" rebranding, then why
isn't it northwest 33 tv ?

Because the FCC has adopted the PSIP standard in full and it requires that stations map to their analog channel numbers even after the analog channels go away. (Standard disclaimer about exceptions goes here)

- Trip

Konrad2

04-09-09, 02:06 AM

scowl writes:
> The compression on 32-2 is nothing I could put up with
> for very long. The video quality is worse than a VHS tape

Is this a surprise? There isn't room for more than
1 HD XOR 2 SD subchannels. Stations that attempt to cram
more subchannels than that turn the picture to crap,
one way or another.

TalkingRat writes:
> It is disappointing that stations can't manage
> 2 subchannels without one of them suffering.

They could if they transmitted 2 SD subchannels. But no one
in pdx does that.

scowl writes:
> Last night I tried to watch a bicycle race and was laughing
> at how the compression was turning the wheels of the bikes
> into flickering gray squares in distant shots.

You don't even need motion. OPB manages to have compression
artifacts on simple 2 color still images.

JeffinWesternWA writes:
> So, IS KOIN ever gonna get a 6.2?

KOIN *had* a 6.2 and thankfully turned it off.

> And when willl FOX/KPDX get a subchannel?

Hopefully never! These are actually watchable.

There's already more interesting stuff on than I have time to watch. :-(
The overcompressed crap gets the ax first.

> Will the moving of some channels from UHF to VHF help? (reception)...

It should. VHF travels better than UHF. Downside is losing
the beautiful and reliable ntsc 8, 10, & 12. :-(

JeffinWesternWA

04-09-09, 11:24 AM

my subchannels seem "ok" on my HDTV (Toshiba 1080/120hz/DTV) thouugh theres a definite "downgrade" watching 480i vice 1080 (or even Fox/KATU's 720p picture), ...reception: my KGW signal is (after the LP KORS 16. and reduced power KPDX 49. and "4 bars" FOX12) often not "5 bars", KRCW 32. often peaks at 100% and runs steady at 95-98% as my strongest signal! (surprises me as a "rimshot" network), ...so hoping KGW's move to VHF can (almost) max it' signal and Fox/KPDX going to VHF, AND repairing x mitter gets better AND KORS "moving up the pole and repairing damaged antenna" makes 16. 7 days a week watchable vice 5 as is pixels/drops out in high wind/bad weather (occasionally KPDX too)...still I'd like another network otr two (subchannel), so would like to see KOIN and FOX/KPDX add one each in June changeover..I'm in western Cams/east of Vancouver at about 250 ft just up over the hill from rt 14 (near Lake road, in front of Lacamas LAke) w/ a weingard 1080 antenna in the attic, oriented "best" for the weak KORS and KPDX signals...

earletp

04-09-09, 12:52 PM

It appears the days of hoping and pushing for sharp, clear, full bandwidth HD has finally been "beaten" out of most of us...

scowl

04-09-09, 02:08 PM

In fact the days of DVD's looking so much better than broadcast television are coming back. Lost looked awful blurry to me last night after having watched the Blu-rays during the weekend.

crossbeaux

04-09-09, 02:57 PM

And it seems like a whole crop of new networks are springing up to fill in this subchannel void, providing us with blurry renditions of programming we never really wanted in the first place.

earletp

04-09-09, 05:02 PM

I haven't decided if I was lucky to get into HD early enough to see what it could have been, or disappointed that I got in so early that I have a comparison to what it's become.

scowl

04-09-09, 05:35 PM

The bicycle stuff I saw on Universal Sports last night looked better than the stuff I saw the night before. There wasn't any racing however, mostly filmed stories which compresses better than live action.

TalkingRat

04-09-09, 06:12 PM

I saw a few seconds of last night Universal Sports, it was the bike story, in letterbox. Maybe that means that as new content is filmed, preferably with decent digital cameras, things will start to look better. 16.3 is my example of a blurry show, it's so fuzzy that a soccer match looks like a computer game. Still, it's better than the shadowy snowy figures I get in analog.

DigaDo

04-09-09, 08:30 PM

16.3 is my example of a blurry show, it's so fuzzy that a soccer match looks like a computer game. Still, it's better than the shadowy snowy figures I get in analog.

I've watched some of the soccer on 16.3 with the same reaction--only it's a very primitive computer game. What do you think of the audio?

R11

04-09-09, 09:12 PM

It appears the days of hoping and pushing for sharp, clear, full bandwidth HD has finally been "beaten" out of most of us...Ain't that the truth.... I rarely cruise through this thread anymore just because it's nearly all about antennas etc now, but this talk from people actually pining away for more subchannels is really unbelievable :(. I guess the old adage about appealing to the lowest common denominator holds trump. I'm with scowl, a fair amount of my watching time has shifted to Blu-ray since last fall. As soon as I got the BR player I bought a Blockbuster subscription, dumped HBO and Starz and have not missed them one iota. It's quite sad actually. All the logo/advertising crap plastered over the screen these days, insufficient bandwidth to hold a clean picture together. What once held such promise years ago slowly slips down the rat hole....

ron

TalkingRat

04-09-09, 09:34 PM

The audio? I don't know that I had the volume up on the soccer, but on many occasions, 16.x is like a tape recording from the late 50s, like my parents' Wollensak. Tinny with a strong echo.

All this heavy sighing over the loss of good PQ. I could say the same of analog, when we went from 3 stations to 30, all that channel interference ruined my PQ. If they've already ruined DTV for you, you'll just have to wait for another generation of technology. Luckily, it happens fast. Many years ago my brother told me a story about a review of a Brunswick phonograph player. The reporter had gone to the opera to hear some prima donna, and they had recorded her voice on a phonograph. To make an unbiased comparison, the reporter got down behind the theater seats. He swore he couldn't tell the difference. :p He was 50 years before his time with what became "Is it live, or is it Memorex?" We had a good laugh about how perceptions change with the technology. As soon as you get used to it, it's never good enough again.

JeffinWesternWA

04-09-09, 10:59 PM

thought the whole DTV xover was about "more channels, higher pic quality" and the govt makes bundles of $$ selling off the old spectrum, while the consumer fairs "ahead" w/ selection and pic quality - for free??!! So whas happenin' to make it so diff?? Agree that 16.3 is like watching a computer video on the big screen complete w/ mono sound comparable to an am radio station in the distance...

ISn't this thread about reception (title name) referring to antennas and such???

Konrad2

04-10-09, 01:35 AM

Quiz time! Let's play What's wrong with this picture?

A
http://g.imagehost.org/0720/kopb_a.png

B
http://g.imagehost.org/0361/kopb_b.png

C
http://f.imagehost.org/0574/kopb_c.png

D
http://g.imagehost.org/0715/abstract.png

E
http://g.imagehost.org/0546/flying_dots.png

Frame A is a night scene, it is supposed to be dark.

R11

04-10-09, 01:08 PM

ISn't this thread about reception (title name) referring to antennas and such???Oh, absolutely Jeff. I was not slighting the current use of the thread as that is it's intended use. It's just that back in '02 when Lee first made it, the general tone of the discussion was much less about actual reception, and more about what was going on at the stations and with HD in particular (In the beginning we really did not know whether it would ultimately "catch on" and survive even). It was mostly enthusiasts looking for info about local HD programming availability and picture quality, and less about people looking to get as many channels as they could for free. In fact, many of us paid large amounts of $ just to get ATSC receivers so that we could pull in one or two stations period (IIRC, I paid $600 for my first receiver and they had just come down from $1000 or more). Times change and so has the focus of the thread is all.

All this heavy sighing over the loss of good PQ. I could say the same of analog, when we went from 3 stations to 30, all that channel interference ruined my PQ. If they've already ruined DTV for you, you'll just have to wait for another generation of technology. Luckily, it happens fast. Many years ago my brother told me a story about a review of a Brunswick phonograph player. The reporter had gone to the opera to hear some prima donna, and they had recorded her voice on a phonograph. To make an unbiased comparison, the reporter got down behind the theater seats. He swore he couldn't tell the difference. :p He was 50 years before his time with what became "Is it live, or is it Memorex?" We had a good laugh about how perceptions change with the technology. As soon as you get used to it, it's never good enough again.Hmm, I said the once promising situation has slowly slipped down a rat hole and TalkingRat pops up to refute it... Maybe I should just rest my case right now :D. Just poking a little fun at you. Seriously though, if you think that some of us are complaining because we have "grown used to it", you clearly missed the first seven years of this thread (and the HD Programming forum for several before that). We've been bitching about the bean counters ruining the PQ with their sub-channels from day one ;)

ron

TalkingRat

04-10-09, 03:17 PM

I was thinking not so much of those who have had HDTVs for years, as how people tend to dismiss the quality of SD as no better than analog, or worse. The memory of analog's faults fades quickly. A good friend says the lower quality digital stuff is worse than analog ever was. Konrad talks about "the beautiful and reliable ntsc 8, 10, & 12."

But having recently run through my NTSC channels, I think they've gotten used to digital, and devalue it. The minute we got our first CECB, everyone stopped watching the unconverted sets. But if I asked them now, they would say digital isn't any better. They haven't gone back with a critical eye to see what analog was like. I was surprised at what I remember as a "good" analog station. At the time it was good. ;)

Part of the dissatisfaction with subchannels may be that many HDTV sets don't display SD well. For non-prime time viewing, my CECB looks a lot better than my neighbors' fancy sets.

scowl

04-10-09, 03:42 PM

A lot of the latest NTSC receivers are just fantastic and look almost as good digital. Since digital video processing is very cheap at SD resolution these days, they digitally clean, sharpen, and process the video to where it hard to tell it was ever analog. The swirly noise and snow that's so associated with analog reception is practically eliminated. It's ironic that a side effect of the transition to digital video has been improved analog video.

One thing they can't fix is that some colors just can't be displayed in NTSC and the horizontal color resolution is very low. Much of the color you see in NTSC is just black and white with a vague tint of color added to it.

R11

04-10-09, 04:02 PM

Hey, even in the old days if a person were in a good location where they didn't have interference ntsc could be very good, for SD anyway... That is why I always hated cable because of the massive compression they used resulted in way worse PQ than good ntsc, and went to DirecTV as soon as it became available. It offered the quality of good reception ntsc with the added channel capacity of cable. Until they too began cramming way too many channels in the available bandwidth....

ron

scowl

04-10-09, 05:11 PM

In the old days of cable (this actually relates to OTA reception) the cable companies put the locals on empty channels so no OTA leakage would degrade the signal. At least where I was, the main reason to get cable was to get perfect reception of the local stations along with a few other out of town stations they got via microwave so you'd have something to watch on all twelve channels. Yes, it was confusing to see channel five on channel six, especially when you went to somebody's house who didn't have cable.

At some point cable companies decided the OTA leakage wasn't that bad and put the stations on the same channels at their OTA channels. KPTV was unwatchable at my house on cable. I had to watch it OTA because the cable signal was nothing but ghosts and vertical lines. Yes, I had them come out and inspect the line but they found nothing wrong.

Konrad2

04-10-09, 06:46 PM

> Konrad talks about "the beautiful and reliable ntsc 8, 10, & 12."

I used to use indoor rabbit ears and got the usual mediocre
reception. Then I read that NTSC was going away, and started
working on building a ATSC/8VSB solution. NTSC degrades
gracefully, which is how so many of us got away with using
crappy rabbit ears. ATSC doesn't degrade gracefully, if the
signal isn't 100% perfect (after FEC) it *rapidly* becomes
totally unusable. The "digital cliff".

In the attempt to get reliable ATSC/8VSB reception, I read up on
antennas and reception, bought some *good* antennas, filtered
out the non-TV frequencies, wired VHF and UHF separately, ran
various experiments, etc. etc. After all that, my VHF-HI and UHF
analogs are effectively perfect. My TV suffers from dot-crawl,
but if the picture doesn't trigger the dot-crawl you can't tell
analog from digital. Assuming the digital came in ok and wasn't
overly compressed or otherwise mangled (which is rare). I didn't
get a VHF-LO antenna since VHF-LO is going away, even so the
VHF-LO analogs are better than most of the digital stations.

After all that I sometimes get 100% perfect (after FEC) ATSC/8VSB
reception, but I can't count on it. Problems appear and disappear
seemingly at random. I've looked for patterns like time of day,
time of year, street traffic (dynamic multipath), temperature,
wind, rain, etc. No clues.

I'm less than 5 miles from the towers, I can see them from my roof.
I have a degree in electrical engineering and I've put a lot of
time, effort and money into this project, and the results are
completely unacceptable. What chance does Joe Sixpack have?

And that's just reception. Even with 100% perfect reception, most
of our stations put out bogus data streams. (See my previous
postings about this.) And most attempt to cram in more subchannels
than will fit, resulting in horrible picture quality. And there
are still horrific glitches, or the screen goes black or green,
my best guess is a data transmission/reception problem from the
network to the TV station.

Some talk of switching to DVD or Blu-Ray, but those have their
own problems. Even if you get past those problems they are no good
for news about storms, volcanos, etc. Some suggest radio for
emergency news, but radio can't provide maps, or captions for
people with hearing problems.

> Part of the dissatisfaction with subchannels may be that many
> HDTV sets don't display SD well.

True. Also, a lot of SD source material is poor quality. Video
cameras were pretty bad until recently, and even a lot of stuff
shot on film is soft and doesn't give full SD resolution. Good
source material displayed on a set that does SD well can look
great.

I'm not anti-digital. CDs are a great improvement over LPs,
and digital TV should be a similar improvement over analog TV.
But ATSC/8VSB is a disaster. And our TV stations create
additional problems.

But what can I do? The FCC isn't going to listen to me, and
neither will my congressperson or senators. I doubt our TV
stations or their advertisers would listen to me either. A
large enough group of people would get heard, but to misquote
Dr. McCoy, "I'm an engineer, not a political activist."

TalkingRat

04-11-09, 01:00 AM

Wow, Konrad, you have put in a lot of effort. I'm only having to work at it because I'm trying to get by on the cheap. I had interference from kitchen appliances and traffic helicopters until I put my indoor antenna in the garage attic. I have heard on this forum that things like a power drill battery charger left plugged in, furnace blower, or doorbell, cordless phone, and dustbuster transformers cause problems. Somebody had trouble with a neighbor's outdoor tools, which with Spring weather must be hard to put up with. I hear blowers and lawnmowers all day long. You have much more picture variety than the FCC digital troubleshooting guide has.

If all I wanted were the Big 5 stations, I'd be set now. It's those extra stations that are hard, but they are bad in analog, nothing graceful about their reception failures --seriously messed up color, a mass of ghosts and interference bands, garbled audio, or mostly snow. Depending on room, I watched on booster stations. So digital with effort is still a better deal.

I want to keep my options open for low VHF, just in case. KOXO has a CP for Ch 6 analog, not sure what's going on there, it was proposed at extremely low power and much smaller coverage.

Trip in VA

04-11-09, 11:02 AM

LP stations applying for channels abandoned by existing analog broadcasters had to apply for very small facilities at first due to some FCC interference protection requirement (yes, it made no sense to me either) and then could apply for a power up later on.

- Trip

JeffinWesternWA

04-11-09, 01:57 PM

I'll bite,... Who/what is KOXO?? Are they comin on "board" and what kind of programmin....oh, over here in W Camas/E Vancouver, what will be their power, Any LP's over here need the max (think it's max for LP anyway) 15W output it seems...

TalkingRat

04-11-09, 02:17 PM

It's Spanish, another of the WatchTV group of Class A TV stations. KORS, KORK, and KOXI are also WatchTV stations.

KOXO is on analog 51 at 95kW and has a CP to move to RF6 at 0.012kW. That ought to save them some electricity. Also slated for digital RF 44.

JeffinWesternWA

04-11-09, 02:25 PM

No habla 'espanol, so no worry bout pickin it up, the bit of Italian I learned years ago overseas is not remembered and the Sp talk on the stations is too fast to try to interpret anyway for me,... good that the area may get another though, that'lll be what 5 (?) Sp speaking station in PDX market?

Thunderbeast

04-11-09, 11:15 PM

Just another theory about the poor appearance of analog and SD content when shown on HD sets.

Much of the original content never anticipated the high resolution when it was originally produced and recorded. Several years ago (just before NBC converted to HD content), I took a tour of Rockafeller Center (30 Rock) on a studio tour. When we came to the sets for "Nightly News" and SNL, it was explained that NBC was about to demolish all of the sets to replace them with sets that would not look bad in HD. As an example, we saw the furnishings which, to the viewer, appeared to have a brushed aluminum trim piece along the edge.

The brushed aluminum trim piece? It was a strip of silver duct tape. The sets were all constructed with just enough quality to fool low resolution analog TV cameras. None of it could survive into the HD age. Actors and screen talent had to at least double their time with make-up artists to prevent disasters on screen.

I am guessing that much of the old studio content suffers from the same production imperfections. When this stuff is shown on a large screen with better resolution it looks worse than it did on our old Philcos.

Thunderbeast

kimco52

04-13-09, 02:24 PM

The TERAC (TechnologyRadio Amateur Club-ex Tek Amateur Radio Club) meeting last week had a guest presenter, Charles Rhodes.
Charlie Rhodes has worked in the television industry for over 50 years. At Tektronix he designed and managed the development of the early television products that were the foundation for the companies dominant position in video test equipment. Charlie is a Life Fellow of SMPTE receiving their prestigious David Sarnoff award in 1992. He is also a Life Fellow of the IEEE. Charlie was Chief Scientist at the ATSC during the development of the Digital Television system. Currently Charlie is a consulting engineer and writer for TV Technology magazine.

He gave a simple, down to earth presentation that discussed the cliff effect, how to test for it, correct for it, and set up antennas for maximum results using simple low cost materials. He discussed amplifiers, placement, noise figures, effects of too much signal and why, etc.

This was a very good presentation and from what I have read from different people in this forum, some of the problems could have been solved by following methods he outlined combined with a good understanding of S/N as it pertains to digital transmission and the "magic" cliff effect of 15.2.

The main point of his presentation was to become familiar with the problems people will face setting up OTA reception and how to fix them. One thing to remember is that it is not how much signal you are getting but how good is that signal. Too much is just as bad as too little.

He also discussed reasons why hardly any stations would want to stay on low VHF for digital. Plus the upcoming "white noise" problems.

kimco52

04-13-09, 02:32 PM

Lee Wood

04-13-09, 05:33 PM

meinename

04-14-09, 05:30 AM

"Quiz time! Let's play What's wrong with this picture?"
I'll bite.
A. Night Scene supposed to be dark (Given)
B. Still playing from a Quad VTR and having clogged heads. Need to spray Genesolv on the head as rotating and/or clean the video heads.
C. Green Screen of Death.
D. Program depicting Modern Art.
E. VTR Head switching problems.

Must be OPB. Try watching a different station. 16.2 or 16.3, perhaps.
A. bad grounding/connection/solder-joint

B. Static during Analog to Digital conversion

C. agreed with with kimco. MPEG decoder threw a full-stop error.

D. I see this on my DVB-S boxes when they miss the main frame/picture by short loss of signal quality (short enough to not trigger the No/Bad Signal screen) so the MPEG decoder just keeps on trucking...
The last main frame/picture is used and the updates to the missed frame are applied to the old frame.
Looks something like that until the next full frame/picture update usually within a second.
When your actually watching it, it looks like a cross-eyed 3D picture as the updates change, until the full frame update.
So, Low signal quality on satellite downlink. Missed MPEG full-frame update.

E. Somebody got too close to the tape with a magnet.

I'm guessing on A, B, and E. I've experienced C and D too often.

Also something I meant to post about awhile back.
KATU 2-2 was pretty much unwatchable about a week before "launch"
All sorts of errors and dropouts visible on screen.
That was an uplink problem as far as I could deduce.
I was checking it against WNGS and KFDF via their satellite downlinks.
Errors were identical across the 3 channels between dropouts.

@Thunderbeast
I like my downscaled HD on my 480i CRT screens. The PQ couldn't be better :D All of the subpixel hinting you could possibly want!
Seriously, Native Resolution is a gripe on LCD screens. All the little color imperfections become obvious. :mad:

@Lee
I really apriciate Charlie and your insight into why and what is going on with this DTV stuff as we grow into it.

st0nedpenguin

04-14-09, 06:07 AM

Hi all.

I'm looking for any advice I can get on choosing an antenna for hopefully OTA HD programming out here in Amboy, WA (98601). TV Fool and AntennaWeb are both pointing me towards Portland stations but I'm completely thrown by the UHF/VHF divide and the real/virtual channel system after coming from the nice simple British TV setup.

I'd prefer an internal option if possible but going on the location I'm assuming that's just not going to be practical, the wife doesn't even think we'll pick any channels up at all out here at all so anything would be a bonus really.

JeffinWesternWA

04-14-09, 12:51 PM

the folks here know their stuff, so I'll defer to them except to say (I used to sell/install antenna 25~ years ago), plan on (since you are 2 edge "away" IAW TV fool): 1) a name brand such as Weingard or Channel Master w/ a probperly connected (RG6 cable, appropriate amlifier/splitter as/if needed and grounding, 2) mounting outdoors as HIGH as practical, 3) go "bigger" IAW get a combo VHF/UHF antenna "larger" than suggested w/ the most gain possible... since you are a bit "away" from Portland, hopefully, you don't have a lot of trees/buildings etc., nearby to interfere. How is/can you get good reception NOW of analog signals from anyy antenna?? That should help you decide to even try an antenna. You are attempting KATU (2), KOIN (6), KGW (8), KOPB (10), FOX (12), KPXG (22), TBN (24), KRCW (32) and KPDX (49), these are the major stations then Low Power KORS (16) is possible also to get to the north from my conversations w/ the station engineers. In addition, you may also "see" repeaters of these stations from other locations on the compass (requiring a rotator for the anttenna), but, with all the digital sub channels you will just looking a the above have access to approximatley 24~ english speaking DIGITAL stations which encompass ALL the networks (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, CW, MYNET, A1, HSN, ION and TBN). Mileage wise you seem fine but, the "2edge" location makes me "nervous" that wind/leaves/signal reflection/etc/, may leave you w/ the "cliff effect". Realize digital is watchable or "not", there is no "almost ok" picture....

Trip in VA

04-14-09, 01:12 PM

It sounds like WatchTV wants to try Mobile DTV in Portland.

Yesterday they filed an STA to operate a second transmitter for KORK-LD 41 once the first transmitter signs on. I think there's a typo in the application (I think they meant 0.28 kW and not 280 kW) but otherwise the description they give matches that of Mobile DTV.

So, I guess, watch for KORK-LD to sign on in the near future. The primary transmitter will be at the same place as the others, and the second one will be near St. Helens.

- Trip

Konrad2

04-14-09, 01:13 PM

> Quiz time! Let's play What's wrong with this picture?

A is NTSC channel 10. I only noticed the problem on dark
night scenes like this. And of these problems, it is the only
one I have found a fix for. The problem with A is a bit subtle,
perhaps it isn't showing up on your screens. Using the color
editor in xv and playing with intensity shows the problem more
clearly.

A2
http://f.imagehost.org/0765/kopb_a_colortweak.png

rabbit73 writes:
> I love D. It looks like an impressionistic painting.

I was thinking abstract, but impressionist could work. What does
it give you an impression of?

> Do it again.

This one isn't quite as good.

F
http://f.imagehost.org/0070/abstract_2.png

And the quails (I think?) caught in a time-space rift.

G
http://f.imagehost.org/0347/kopb_g.png

I love the various guesses. At least we can get a little
entertainment out of these problems.

Konrad2

04-14-09, 02:11 PM

st0nedpenguin,

Have you tried playing with antenna height on tvfool.com?
This could give you an idea of how much you will gain by getting
your antennas up higher.

> I'm completely thrown by the UHF/VHF divide

There are three TV bands in the US. VHF-LO (2-6), VHF-HI (7-13),
and UHF (14-69, soon to be 14-51) In June the high power analog
(NTSC) stations are scheduled to be turned off. Some low power
analog stations may continue.

Assuming you want all the main Portland stations, you will want a
VHF-HI and a UHF antenna. Separate antennas give better performance
than a combo VHF/UHF antenna. There are currently analog stations
on VHF-LO, but 2 (ABC) and 6 (CBS) are scheduled to be turned off
in June. I don't know about the low power channel 5 (CW). The tvfool
database is incorrect, channel 5 is analog, not digital. FM radio
is just above channel 6, so if you want a FM antenna a VHF-LO TV antenna
will give you FM as well, or you can get a FM-only antenna. There has
been some talk of a possible VHF-LO station post-analog-shutdown, so
you can either get a VHF-LO antenna now, or wait and see.

> the real/virtual channel system

That part sucks. The antenna cares about the real channel number.
The virtual channel system is just marketing, the idea was to
allow stations to continue to be "channel 2" even though the
real channel is now 43. But in reality it has created a lot
of confusion. The virtual channel doesn't tell you what kind of
antenna you need. Channel 2 needs a VHF-LO antenna but 43 needs a
UHF antenna.

I'd get an XG91 for UHF and either YA-1713 or Y10-7-13 for VHF-HI.
Get them as high as possible. Given the weak signal strength numbers,
you'll likely need a preamp as well. Winegard and Channel Master have
good reputations. Avoid Radio Shack.

You can get RG6 quad shield coax at Lowes. (big box home improvement store)
They should have some mounting hardware as well. The antennas and preamp
you'll probably have to get mail-order.

I'll also suggest getting a couple each HLSJ and UVSJ diplexors, some terminators,
and some male-to-male F connectors. Use the HLSJ with the low port terminated
to keep VHF-LO and FM out of your VHF-HI signals. Use the UVSJ with the
the low port terminated to get VHF and FM out of your UHF signals. FM
does a real number on TV signals.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html

Mail order

http://www.solidsignal.com/
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/
http://www.summitsource.com/
http://www.starkelectronic.com/

earletp

04-14-09, 04:58 PM

To add to the discussion about reception, my experience is nearly the exact opposite from what Konrad2 went through.

I'm fairly close to the towers with a direct line of sight but no matter what I tried I could not get good clean NTSC reception. I suffered ghosting, bleeds, banding, interference, all manner of issues. Eventually I ended up with limited basic cable to get a reliable analog picture.

Then 5 - 6 years ago I bought my first ATSC tuner, back when as Ron pointed out they still ran several hundred dollars each, I also picked up a Silver Sensor indoor antenna. I hooked everything up and with a little futzing with antenna placement I was met with near perfect reception of all the local digital stations.

So in my case, even though I was never able to receive analog bliss, getting a great digital signal was a piece of cake.

My advice is that while it is good to get information, start with the simple solution first and then escalate if necessary. Not everyone is going to need a top flight roof antenna or two as well as the rest. Heck, I have a buddy in Hillsboro that gets great ATSC reception using a $5 set of rabbit ears with a simple UHF loop on it, something he was never able to do with a NTSC signal.

JeffinWesternWA

04-14-09, 07:09 PM

Is KORK-LD ch 41 the "same" as now broadcasting on analog 35/KORS digital 16.1 (HSN??) reason: I posted waay back that Watch tv did tell me they were comin aboard w/ another digital channnel "around" channel 40...this is probably that, though we/I don't need HSN programming if we already got that via KORS 16.1....

Folks out in the gorge (ref above post info) installers of antennas tell me setting up an antenna there is terrible to attempt/orient w/ ghosts/bounce/reflections of analog signals, ...I guess getting digital is better for some (probably urban/nearby) but harder for "fringe" reception, where analog can be "almost very good" but, a digital signal will be cliff effect/clipping from weather, etc.,...

seems repeaters and LP stations willl be in a greater need w/ digital transition, example: I get CW on home station of 32 almost 100% and get a VERY clear repeat of same on analog on ch 5, but, as a "fringe" signal for folks further outside PDX, that repeater, in outward places is gonna be very much needed...

meinename

04-14-09, 07:29 PM

But I'm glad to hear that somebody is going to put up a MobileTV station.
Too bad that means Ch. 40/6.1 signal is going to go further in the crapper.

Trip in VA

04-14-09, 08:01 PM

Konrad2

04-15-09, 01:37 AM

earletp writes:
> To add to the discussion about reception, my experience
> is nearly the exact opposite from what Konrad2 went through.

> I was met with near perfect reception of all the local digital stations.

With analog, near perfect is very watchable. With digital,
it has to be absolutely 100% perfect or you risk crashes of
mpeg decoders, closed caption decoders, etc. All it takes
is one corrupted packet.

I may well have reception that is closer to being reliable
than yours is. But I have a high standard for reliable.
When I say "reliable", I mean better than 5 9s reliable.
If a tuner reports that a single packet failed to be corrected
by FEC I count that as a failure, even if it decodes ok and I
don't notice any glitches on the screen or in the audio.

NTSC was designed decades ago, in the vacuum tube era.
Today we have all those decades of experience with
reception problems, we have VLSI, we have FEC, we
have fast computers to run simulations, etc.

So why is ATSC less reliable than NTSC? Not because it
is new, we're on the 6th generation of demodulator chips.
Digital TV should be *more* reliable than analog, there
is no reason it should be less reliable. And there is
no reason we should settle for a new system than is less
reliable than the old system.

Konrad2

04-15-09, 12:38 PM

TalkingRat

04-17-09, 09:53 AM

> All the logo/advertising crap plastered over the screen these days

pax/i/ion has the picture down to 61.25% :-(

http://f.imagehost.org/0643/big_overlay.png

It is good to know that there will be another episode of annoying
overlays coming up next.

Shrunken, but at least it doesn't look like there's significant information loss. I hate it when I'm watching the news and up goes a banner on top of the object the reporter is showing us. Or over an urgent announcement banner, or subtitles. And I'm not a fan of those bugs that pop up deep inside the program and wiggle.

Konrad2

04-18-09, 06:10 PM

Looks like the guesses have stopped, so here is what I know
about the problems.

Frame A/A2 is KOPB NTSC channel 10 with interference. Channel 10
is 192-198 MHz, so the 1st harmonic of 96-99 MHz lands here.
Thus I suspected that the interference was from FM radio.
But! Multiple FM traps, both 95-108 and 88-108 MHz, failed to
remove it. I even put a couple directly at the tuner input with
male-to-male F adapters in case it was leaking through the RG6
quad shield. Still no luck. Could the FM be *that* strong?
Seems unlikely. Could it be a different frequency? 2nd harmonic
of 64-66 Mhz ? 3rd of 48-49.5 MHz ? Something other than
harmonic distortion? It turns out that the fix was adding
ferrite sleeves around the coax just before the tuner input.
Which implies that the problem was getting in via common mode.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braid-breaker

I don't know how one would detect this problem with ATSC.
The ferrite sleeves cost less than $4 each, might help and
should not hurt anything, so I figure why not just put ferrite
on each tuner as standard procedure?

Frames B, C, and G are from the same recording. KOPB channel 27.
The ATSC/8VSB reception was perfect after FEC. So whatever caused
this was at KOPB, or upstream.

Frames D and F are from KRCW channel 33 with a ATSC/8VSB
reception problem. Signal strength 84% (should be fine)
Signal quality 90% (should be fine). Highly directional
antenna, 700 MHz low pass filter, multiple UVSJ in series
as high pass filter, ferrite. Usually comes in poorly on
two different model tuners. Occasionally comes in perfectly,
which would seem to rule out a problem with multipath.

Frame E is KOIN channel 40. The ATSC/8VSB reception was
perfect after FEC. So whatever caused this was at KOIN,
or upstream.

meinename

04-19-09, 04:41 PM

Konrad, how often do you see stuff like frames D and F?
And what equipment do you see it on the most?

I know what I think I'm seeing in those frames but I very rarely watch KRCW, so I'd probably never catch much of that.

I've ended up using my Hauppauge HVR-1600 to measure SNR and FEC.

When I was starting out I played with indoor antennas, usually no more than 24 SNR. Dropouts were frequent. I put my antenna outside and almost all my problems went away as SNR jumped to 24-28. Then I mounted it on the roof.
27-30 SNR on most stations.
I have had bad MPEG form all stations with no FEC error correction and 28-30 SNR.
OT: Both the Zenith DTT-900 and the DigitalStream DTX-9950 seem to lump SNR, FEC errors, and MPEG errors together in their meters, as far as I can tell. Makes it a bit hard to troubleshoot and aim with them when you're getting a bad MPEG stream.

The point I'm getting at is more often than not, little dropouts and glitches that I thought were borderline ATSC dropouts or some other problem, were not. It was what was coming from the station.

As I've got more into DVB-S, I've had opportunities to watch other feeds.
Yes the stations put out "bad" transport streams but it my not be the station that initally sent the bad stream. I've seen it on the national feeds as well.

Forgive me if I'm using the wrong terms but I know what I'm trying to point out.

Konrad2

04-22-09, 07:53 PM

> Konrad, how often do you see stuff like frames D and F?

Hmmmm, offhand that's the only time I recall seeing that
style of problem (the abstract/impressionist painting look).
Normally ATSC/8VSB reception problems look very rectangular,
and/or clicks/pops in the audio.

> I very rarely watch KRCW

Same here, mostly the occasional movie.

> I have had bad MPEG form all stations with no FEC error correction

I have seen bad data from KPTV, KRCW, KGW, KOIN, KOPB, and KPXG.
I haven't seen bad data from KATU or KPDX.

> OT: Both the Zenith DTT-900 and the DigitalStream DTX-9950 seem to
> lump SNR, FEC errors, and MPEG errors together in their meters, as
> far as I can tell. Makes it a bit hard to troubleshoot and aim with
> them when you're getting a bad MPEG stream.

Having the FEC info available is very useful. If FEC is able to correct
all the errors, you have a perfect copy of the bits the TV station
transmitted.

> The point I'm getting at is more often than not, little dropouts and
> glitches that I thought were borderline ATSC dropouts or some other
> problem, were not. It was what was coming from the station.

Same here. It took awhile to figure out that the stations were sending
out invalid data streams. Sometime the problems aren't so little.
Frame E is a little problem, but the B/C/G problem is pretty significant.

> Yes the stations put out "bad" transport streams but it my not be the
> station that initally sent the bad stream. I've seen it on the national
> feeds as well.

Yeah, as an end-user it is hard to guess where the problem originates.
It might be that the network is sending out bad stuff, it could be a
transmission/reception problem between the network and the TV station,
or it could be a problem at the TV station.

TalkingRat

04-23-09, 02:51 PM

I have seen the impressionist painting effects (Frames D, F) only a few times, and only on my Thomson tuners (Pal and CM7000). It is under conditions of weak signal strength, and very bad signal quality. It alternates between breakup when it drops to zero, and impressionist picture when it's at single digits. At that level, the Sanyo and LG tuners keep breaking up. Most of the time KORS is at 40% strength on the CM, which is enough to hold a picture.

CW never shows the blur effect, 100% signal on the CM tuner. There are days (or hours near sunset) or with animated motion where the A/V breaks up once a minute, still showing 100%. It's too annoying to watch, but this breakup is a Thomson tuner problem, the Sanyo and LG tuners are fully watchable. Two CECBs are better than one. ;)

Trip in VA

04-24-09, 05:34 PM

Anyone seeing testing on channel 41 (KORK-LD) yet? SiliconDust shows a test signal with a map of Oregon: http://img.lineupui.silicondust.com/snapshots/64/snapshot_11397564.jpg

- Trip

TalkingRat

04-25-09, 11:25 AM

Friday night KGW started bouncing around the middle of the CM strength meter, ranging 40 points. I waited until it got back to 100%, then scanned. The CM found nothing, although it hesitated in a few extra places.

KORK Ch 41 was just a flash on the Zat meter, if it was KORK; the signal flash is nothing new. But the Zat put KPDX back on my main TV for the first time since 12/21, at 30% strength and 10% quality. It sits there filling in entire rows with garbage, but it is marginally watchable and it gives me the guide. The CM adds new stations automatically, so it may find it later on its own. The .gov site puts KPDX as my strongest signal. Ha!

TalkingRat

04-26-09, 11:03 AM

My CM found 49.1 after a few more tries, but after that, it added a phantom 48.1. I may delete them both off the CM, since KPDX won't be back at full power until they move:

Updated: 5:03 p.m. April 21, 2009 KPDX Digital is currently broadcasting on UHF Channel 48 and will be changing to UHF Channel 30 on the June 12th transition day where it will return to full power. Viewers will need to rescan their converter boxes or HD receivers on the transition date.

Konrad2

04-27-09, 03:40 PM

> My CM found 49.1 after a few more tries, but after that, it added a phantom 48.1.
> I may delete them both

And miss _The Cage_ ?

TalkingRat

04-28-09, 05:44 PM

10% signal quality on the CM is not something I can rely on. What I don't understand is how a 1000kW signal at half power is worse than KORS-CA at 15kW.

Trip in VA

04-28-09, 07:36 PM

10% signal quality on the CM is not something I can rely on. What I don't understand is how a 1000kW signal at half power is worse than KORS-CA at 15kW.

An 8VSB signal has to be level. Observe this picture:

http://www.8vsb.com/WhatExactlyIs_files/image005.gif

Note how other than the pilot carrier which peaks at the left side of the waveform, the rest of the signal is pretty flat. If that wave form is distorted coming out of the transmitter, you could have all the signal in the world but with very low signal quality.

That would explain your KPDX-DT issue.

- Trip

Konrad2

04-29-09, 01:00 AM

>> What I don't understand is how a 1000kW signal at
>> half power is worse than KORS-CA at 15kW.

> If that wave form is distorted coming out of the transmitter,
> you could have all the signal in the world but with very low
> signal quality.

Right. Signal strength is only part of the problem. In theory,
ATSC/8VSB only needs 15.something dB signal/noise ratio. In
practice of course you need more. But you also have multipath
and interference.

KPDX was only coming in at 55% signal quality when it was at
full power, currently down to 45 and even 40%. But even at 40%,
FEC is usually able to completely fix any errors.

Other stations have "quality" of 95%, yet sometimes have FEC failures.
So "quality" numbers aren't always a good indication of how good
reception is, especially comparing one station to another. What really
matters is how many packets still have errors after FEC.

TalkingRat

04-29-09, 08:51 PM

No such luck as brute force, then. ;) I somehow imagined that 500kW would get them a little something over 15kW, even with damage. How do stations evaluate viewer coverage, do they rely on Nielsen surveys and complaints, or do they also physically test for coverage? Aare they likely to know how many viewers they lost from the storm damage? It seems highly variable, with Konrad going from 55% to 45% strength, and me going from 85% to 0-10%. The return of KPDX was a one day wonder.

Konrad2

04-30-09, 01:08 AM

> How do stations evaluate viewer coverage, do they rely on
> Nielsen surveys and complaints, or do they also physically
> test for coverage?

I guess the first question is do they verify coverage, or just
assume that the models are close? BTW, the FCC assumes a high
gain antenna, outdoors, 30 feet up. Never mind that most people
try to get by with rabbit ears, indoors, far lower than 30 feet.

> It seems highly variable, with Konrad going from 55% to 45% strength,
> and me going from 85% to 0-10%

The strength went from 98-100+ (meter pegs at 100) to 87-89.
The "quality" went from 50-55% to 40-45%.
The actual reception is still usually perfect after FEC, and
is my most dependable station, even at the current low power.
Judging by the signal strength numbers, I'd estimate they are
running at 1/4 power (-6 dB).

A signal strength meter should show about the same drop for all
of us. "Quality" meters could vary, depending on exactly what
they are measuring, and this varies from one brand to another.
If some other station is overloading the tuner, the distortion
products affecting a weak station will be about the same, so when
the weak station gets weaker, reception can go down the drain in a
hurry. If the lower power drops the signal/noise ratio down to the
magic 15.something dB range, reception will fall off the digital cliff.
Filtering out the FM band, or all of VHF might help a lot. (I have
VHF filtered out.)

TalkingRat

04-30-09, 04:29 PM

Filed 4/22/09. Sorry for the all caps, blame KWVT. If they maintain the current programming, we will get RTN on 17.2.

KWVT-LP PRESENTLY OPERATES ANALOG ON CHANNEL 17. IT IS SHORT SPACED TO THE CO-CHANNEL FULL POWER DIGITAL OPERATION OF KMTR, FACILITY ID NUMBER 35189, EUGENE, OREGON. A STUDY WAS CONDUCTED TO FIND A SUITABLE CHANNEL FOR PERMANANT OPERATION BY KWVT-LP. IT WAS DETERMINED THAT THE BEST OPTION WOULD BE TO SPECIFY DIGITAL OPERATION ON CHANNEL 49, 15 KW NON-DIRECTIONAL. THE PROPOSED TRANSMITTER SITE PROVIDES THE REQUIRED CONTOUR OVERLAP WITH THE CURRENTLY LICENSED FACILITY. THE INTERFERING CONTOUR WILL NOT REACH THE CANADIAN BORDER, AND THEREFORE DOES NOT REQUIRE COORDINATION WITH CANADA. CHANNEL 49 IS PRESENTLY OCCUPIED BY KPDX, FACILITY ID 35460. THE APPLICANT HAS OBTAINED A LETTER FROM MEREDITH CORPORATION CONSENTING TO THE INTERFERENCE CAUSED BY THIS PROPOSAL, AND THEREFORE THIS APPLICATION CAN BE PROCESSED QUICKLY.

Trip in VA

04-30-09, 04:33 PM

When did 17-2 drop White Springs?

- Trip

TalkingRat

04-30-09, 04:55 PM

I guess the first question is do they verify coverage, or just assume that the models are close? BTW, the FCC assumes a high gain antenna, outdoors, 30 feet up. Never mind that most people try to get by with rabbit ears, indoors, far lower than 30 feet.

The FCC map is the same one they had when they were at twice the power. Apparently they don't generate new maps when the situation changes, perhaps because it is temporary, by their definition. In terms of ad revenue, I would imagine that the Nielsen surveys will reflect the lost coverage, even if the station doesn't update their maps. But maybe there is a marketing advantage in calling it temporary.

Correction: I don't think the map was there when they first applied, but it's there now, revised to show the reduced coverage.

The strength went from 98-100+ (meter pegs at 100) to 87-89.
The "quality" went from 50-55% to 40-45%.
The actual reception is still usually perfect after FEC, and
is my most dependable station, even at the current low power.
Judging by the signal strength numbers, I'd estimate they are
running at 1/4 power (-6 dB).

A signal strength meter should show about the same drop for all
of us. "Quality" meters could vary, depending on exactly what
they are measuring, and this varies from one brand to another.
If some other station is overloading the tuner, the distortion
products affecting a weak station will be about the same, so when
the weak station gets weaker, reception can go down the drain in a
hurry. If the lower power drops the signal/noise ratio down to the
magic 15.something dB range, reception will fall off the digital cliff.
Filtering out the FM band, or all of VHF might help a lot. (I have
VHF filtered out.)

They told someone they were running digital at approx. half power, but then they still say on their site that their analog is full power, and what they filed with the FCC says otherwise.

Yeah, mine fell off the cliff, and it was a very long drop.

TalkingRat

04-30-09, 05:21 PM

When did 17-2 drop White Springs?

- Trip

Not sure. Did they actually have 17.2 White Springs programming, or was that just a projection?

It seems these LPs are wheeling and dealing for Portland tower space and formerly analog RF.

Here's the KSLM article, which says KWVT and KSLM are owned by "Northwest Television."

I'm wondering what they will do with KWVT, since they do the same A1 programming that's currently on KOXI 16.3.

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/april242009/kslm_4-24-09.php

crossbeaux

05-08-09, 10:36 AM

I'm still getting audio dropouts on KRCWDT (notably on Smallville and 90210), two or three per show. I watch these over cable with a DVR, but I suspect they're broadcast artifacts, not cable. Are you folks still seeing (hearing) these too? It seems like this has been going on a looonnngg time.

scowl

05-09-09, 02:10 AM

I haven't noticed any but I've been trying to avoid Smallville lately. :(

crossbeaux

05-09-09, 09:43 AM

I hear you. It's not like you miss much on either of those shows when the audio goes out.

TalkingRat

05-09-09, 10:31 PM

The CW audio breakup is certainly more annoying than the occasional misplaced pixel. It seems to happen in the evening. When it starts breaking up, I switch to my Zat970A, so I get 1-2 per program instead of every minute. If it were a major network, I'd be really annoyed. When I had a digital cable trial, the local networks lost the picture about every five minutes, but the audio was still there.

audioxcel

05-10-09, 01:36 PM

Hey, I'm getting KPDX 49.1 now. Did they fix the transmitter?

TalkingRat

05-10-09, 02:17 PM

49.1 is back but very iffy, so I wouldn't say it's fixed. But with KPDX cooperating with KWVT's application for RF49, maybe it's getting fixed enough to be low power, if that's possible.

dbird29

05-15-09, 07:03 PM

On a SONY Bravia on Comcast the Virtual Channel would not resolve to 6.1 or 49.1.

They are available on 80.63 for KOIN & 80.3 for KPDX.

Comcast will be checking their VCT tag insertion next week.

Phantom Gremlin

05-15-09, 08:12 PM

On a SONY Bravia on Comcast the Virtual Channel would not resolve to 6.1 or 49.1.

They are available on 80.63 for KOIN & 80.3 for KPDX.

Comcast will be checking their VCT tag insertion next week.

Shouldn't you post this in the local Comcast theead?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=339961

meinename

05-19-09, 09:05 PM

Been watching the Diving repeat 5:30-6:00pm

Kept dropping out on me so I pulled up the SNR meter on my HVR-1600
Peaking at 26db SNR, avg. 24.
But suddenly dropping to 20-22 SNR with thousands of Uncorrectable FEC errors.

Gah the meters all over the place!! :mad:

24-26 SNR and 300+ Uncorrectable

Anyone else having reception issues with KRCW-DT today?

Konrad2

05-20-09, 04:52 PM

> Been watching the Diving repeat 5:30-6:00pm
>
> Kept dropping out on me so I pulled up the SNR meter on my HVR-1600
> Peaking at 26db SNR, avg. 24.
> But suddenly dropping to 20-22 SNR with thousands of Uncorrectable FEC errors.
>
> Gah the meters all over the place!! :mad:
>
> 24-26 SNR and 300+ Uncorrectable
>
> Anyone else having reception issues with KRCW-DT today?

I ran a 10 min test 2009-05-19 10:16-10:26pm

signal strength = 100% (probably pegged)
signal quality = 90% (usually runs 85-95%)
packets failing FEC: 0
continuity counter errors = 0

recent results:
2009-05-17 problems (FEC, counters) (haven't watched it yet)
2009-05-10 perfect reception (haven't watched it yet)
2009-05-04 problems (FEC, counters) several mpeg decode errors
2009-03-29 perfect reception, but there was a major glitch, a/v sync was bad afterwards

KRCW used to be really terrible nearly all the time, reception has been significantly
less terrible the last 3 months or so. Unfortunately I have no idea what changed.
Even with the improvement it is still really bad, and their datastream needs work.

Speaking of bad datastreams, did anyone catch _West Side Story_ on "This" (KATU)
the other week? Reception was perfect, but the picture and audio were breaking
up almost constantly throughout the entire movie. And after they showed a clip
of one of the producer/director type guys bragging about how wonderful the
transfer from 70mm film to video was. The chain is only as strong as the weakest
link.

scottcorinna

05-20-09, 07:56 PM

If your up tonight or early tomorrow morning depending on your sleep schedule KGW is testing the DTV switchover. Here's the particulars.

2:15 AM DTV Transmitter Transition Test
Thursday morning we will be testing the DTV transmitter at 2:15am, this will require turning off the analog transmitter. This test will help us confirm that all equipment is ready for the June 12th analog shutoff. A handful of employees will be tuning in to verify that they are able to receive KGW DTV. Please pass this on to anyone you know that would be willing to help.
Those that are testing will need to have a DTV Off-Air receiver.
We will have a conference call for those that will be helping with the test. Please call in at 2:15am with this number: 877-309-8255 ID 9089216
Note: Participants will need to rescan their off-air DTV receiver during and after the test.

Thanks for the help.
Scott

Konrad2

05-20-09, 08:53 PM

> Thursday morning we will be testing the DTV transmitter at 2:15am

I'll assume that 2:15am is the starting time. How long are they
planning on running the test? 10 minutes? An hour?

I don't plan on being awake at 2:15am, but that's what at(1) jobs are for.

skihoodoo

05-21-09, 12:20 AM

TalkingRat

05-21-09, 09:15 AM

skihoodoo

05-21-09, 11:46 AM

Skihoodoo, that is above and beyond the call to be up at 2:15 for a test of indefinite duration. Your pic shows 2:52 am, was it a long test, then?

I see Ch 8 signal strength at 63, how does that compare to what you get from their UHF transmission?

the test lasted about an hour and 15 min timeline from last night was 1:35 kgw analog shutoff 2:05 ch8 digital came up 2:15 called into that line (it was kinda interesting ) ch 46 was turned off a few minutes later i disconnected a half hour later test continued till around 3:10-15 when 46 was turned back on and the test was over.

in regards to signal strength its 71-75 on 46

TalkingRat

05-21-09, 12:35 PM

skihoodoo

05-21-09, 12:56 PM

I hope the lower strength is something that can be tweaked up, the way the ION and KORS signals improved with a little more time. I would hate for it to mean that 8/10/12 will be permanently worse.

But even if it's worse, I'd rather have it now, lol. If only they could have broken analog in the process. ;-)
one thing you have to remember about my location is i am 20 miles away from koac ch 7 in corvallis and there analog was on last night hitting me at close to 263kW ERP there digital at 39 hits me around 1000.kW ERP when there digital 39 goes off the air(they are moving to 7digital with a 18.1kW ERP) i have no problem with any portland station otherwise 6/22 have some issues when its at full power. kgw test last night was only at around 25kw last night they have an application to boost up to 45kW ERP thats been pending for close to a year .
so the way i see it that test last night can only mean good things to come

TalkingRat

05-21-09, 01:38 PM

Thanks for the additional detail about power, Skihoodoo! That's a decent test result, all things considered. :)

Konrad2

05-21-09, 03:34 PM

The comment about "this" showing letterbox or pan-and-scan has
disappeared? I didn't notice at the time, being more concerned
with trying to make out the dialog with the audio breaking up.
Anyway here are a couple of frames showing the wonderful picture
quality that KATU/this are pumping out, and they are 4:3 so
it is pan-and-scan, assuming the original film was widescreen.

http://f.imagehost.org/0696/KATU_West_Side_Story_1h33m56s11f.png

http://f.imagehost.org/0484/KATU_West_Side_Story_1h43m28s21f.png

There were 0 FEC errors, so this is *not* a reception problem.

Konrad2

05-21-09, 03:40 PM

Not knowing how long KGW's test was going to be, I programmed
a couple of tests.

1st test: 2:20-2:30am
signal strength: 100% (probably pegged)
signal quality: 90%
number of packets failing FEC: 0
number of continuity counter errors: 1
decoded ok

Since all packets were correct after applying forward error
correction, I have an exact copy of the bits KGW transmitted.
So the continuity counter error is a problem at the station.
Looking through the logs, this happens frequently, but not
always.

2nd test: 2:35-2:55am
signal strength: 100% (probably pegged)
signal quality: 85%
number of packets failing FEC: 1548479
number of continuity counter errors: 670258
1 decode error

With only 1 decode error, I assume there was a single
burst of bad packets. Cause unknown.

> If only they could have broken analog in the process.

How about getting digital working properly before taking analog away?

TalkingRat

05-21-09, 05:23 PM

How about getting digital working properly before taking analog away?

I wouldn't expect RF8 digital signal to be perfect until KGW is there permanently, and that obviously involves taking analog away first.

From where I sit, there's nothing wrong with KGW or KATU. There's been a recent change in KGW signal meter, it's not at 100% and it bounces, but reception is fine.

DigaDo

05-21-09, 06:52 PM

The comment about "this" showing letterbox or pan-and-scan has disappeared?

Yes, I deleted the post as it mentioned that the uncut and commercial free widescreen version of West Side Story would be shown on Turner Classic Movies tonight at 6:30 p.m. TCM is not a service that may be seen OTA.

That post also had this link to TCM's letterbox promo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcEtFcgfonY

scottcorinna

05-22-09, 07:07 PM

http://oregonmediainsiders.com/node/1919

R11

05-22-09, 07:20 PM

Looks like it's time to send the Blazers a letter urging them to strongly consider the impact of this on who will get the next non-comcast game package. The KGW games already were a distant second place to the games via CSN. Can only imagine what this is going to do. :(

Barkdust

05-26-09, 01:27 AM

I'll apologize in advance -- I don't see another place to post this for Portland, OR.

I have a free 4' x 8' "Doable" board located in Tualatin. It is one of the projection screen options discussed on the AVS Forum. Look it up and see if it works for you!

I'd prefer to give it to someone on this forum. Send a private email.

nater

05-26-09, 01:46 AM

This thread should work fine.
You may also be interested in the thread:

Portland ,Ore. / Vancouver ,Wa. - first meet done , next one coming soon ...
this is the link
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=125163

I have a great free screen that tibia gave away a year or so ago on this thread.

Welcome Barkdust

nater

TalkingRat

06-02-09, 11:44 PM

I know a couple of you have DTVPal DVRs. I'm curious how well it does with TVGOS in Portland, does it fill in all the channels ok? I seem to recall people saying it leaves off data if you have lots of data, and we get more data than other DMAS. The Pal DVR is supposed to work with an analog TV if you hook it up with composite cables, so I'm considering a Pal DVR instead of a second used VCR that may turn out to eat tapes.

lewlew

06-03-09, 12:52 AM

I have the pal dvr. The tvgos works well for ABC, NBC, & FOX. It does not go past several hours(psip data) for OPB or CBS. Oddly, KOIN is the source of the tvgos data.

TalkingRat

06-03-09, 10:08 AM

Thanks, lewlew. I guess that leaves me still undecided. It must be hard to schedule events when you end up with a few hours of PSIP instead. Do you have any theories on what the logic is for which stations get TVGOS priority? On the CECB version (PSIP), I lost data for KOIN, NBC, OPB, but KNMT with its 7 day guide and 5 subchannels, which at times shows 6 different program in half an hour's space -- that one got priority space. It doesn't seem to be as simple as a sort by real or virtual frequency.

lewlew

06-03-09, 11:20 AM

I've temporarily resigned myself to accept what I've got now. We'll see after the big shut down if Dish/tvgos get their acts together. This is happening in many parts of the country with the pal dvr.

I use the pal dvr only as backup to my fios dvr.

I still haven't figured out how to tell new episodes from re-runs on either machine.

Lee Wood

06-03-09, 03:48 PM

I have the pal dvr. The tvgos works well for ABC, NBC, & FOX. It does not go past several hours(psip data) for OPB or CBS. Oddly, KOIN is the source of the tvgos data.It does not sound like you are getting TVGOS data. It sounds like you are just getting PSIP data. When I last checked stations were sending out the following PSIP guide data:
KATU - 3 days
KOIN - 1 day
KGW - 12 hours
KOPB - 1 day
KPTV - 1 day
KPXG - 1 day
KNMT - 7 days
KRCW - 1-1/2 days
If your program guide is populated like this you are only seeing PSIP data and not TVGOS (which, I think, is supposed to be 8 days).

dbird29

06-06-09, 06:33 PM

KOIN will be the nightlite station airing the FCC message for two weeks after the analog shutdown.

skihoodoo

06-06-09, 09:11 PM

KOIN will be the nightlite station airing the FCC message for two weeks after the analog shutdown.
one thing i have noticed is that the stations are making it more confusing for consumers from the programs that have run over the weekend on Kgw Fri. Koin Sat. & Sun. times are like not even close for some stations and KOPB AND KOAC (CANT WAIT) where not on anyones list
update info 8:03 pm
KATU: 11:35pm will run a crawl for a long time on Friday, then officially shut it off after the 11:00pm news. (That is the plan so far)

TalkingRat

06-06-09, 09:34 PM

Skihoodoo, now that is a crack up. or is that screw up? Thanks for the screen shots. I'd sure like to know how they all came up with that mess. And I hope it's like the break a leg tradition, that's the worst that's going to happen, but somehow I don't think it says much for their coordinated call center -- which really ought to have the right times for each station.

On the KGW midnight thing, they have it on their website that way, it's an awful page, dark blue font on black background, not many people would have the patience to read that page. But I did, and I emailed them about the error a week ago or so, and they ignored me. They had their chance to fix it before it became a problem.

http://www.kgw.com/dtv/

Lee Wood is tracking the times in his first post on this thread, based on what they submitted to the FCC, and personal knowledge when he has better estimates.

Edit: I'd sure like to know how KOIN thinks KPDX is going to move five minutes before KPTV. ;-)

dbird29

06-07-09, 09:28 AM

I guess it is an example of no good deed goes unpunished.

Try to get as accurate as possible and get slammed, use the FCC time windows and get slammed.

Whatever :rolleyes:

skihoodoo

06-07-09, 09:05 PM

I wouldn't expect RF8 digital signal to be perfect until KGW is there permanently, and that obviously involves taking analog away first.

From where I sit, there's nothing wrong with KGW or KATU. There's been a recent change in KGW signal meter, it's not at 100% and it bounces, but reception is fine.
I just found this on the fcc website
Exhibits
Exhibit 4
Description: REDUCTION OF PRE-TRANSITION DIGITAL OPERATIONS

ON MAY 2, 2009, STATION KGW(TV) EXPERIENCED A PARTIAL FAILURE OF ITS PRE-TRANSITION DIGITAL TRANSMITTER. AS A RESULT, THE STATION IS NOW OPERATING AT 66% OF ITS AUTHORIZED POWER. GIVEN KGW'S JUNE 12, 2009 TRANSITION TO ITS FINAL POST-TRANSITION DIGITAL FACILITIES, IT IS FINANCIALLY IMPRACTICABLE TO REPAIR THE TRANSMITTER. ACCORDINGLY, STATION KGW(TV) HEREBY PROVIDES NOTIFICATION, PURSUANT TO PARAGRAPH 133 OF THE COMMISSION'S REPORT AND ORDER, MB DKT. NO. 07-91 FCC 07-228 (REL. DEC. 31, 2007), THAT IT INTENDS TO OPERATE ITS PRE-TRANSITION DIGITAL FACILITIES AT REDUCED POWER FOR THE REMAINDER OF THE DTV TRANSITION.
update 9:44
im sorry as well dbird

TalkingRat

06-07-09, 10:39 PM

I guess it is an example of no good deed goes unpunished.

Try to get as accurate as possible and get slammed, use the FCC time windows and get slammed.

Whatever :rolleyes:

Sorry, dbird, I didn't mean to offend! You're probably too close to it, so it isn't funny. Just poking fun because of the situation with KPDX playing musical chairs and unable to move until KPTV vacates. Somebody just got the times reversed.

It was a good idea the FCC had, on paper, for everyone to publish the whole list, but that assumes everybody shares. Guess that didn't happen. There's still time to fix it -- for the call center as well as for us. [ETA: and they did, yay! See Shihoodoo's Post # 7431 for official times.]

It was nice to see KPTV/KPDX won't be waiting until noon to move; their FCC time is 6:00 am to noon. Fox has a countdown pointing to 9:00 am, a lot of stations forgot to adjust their countdown and still show midnight. But we know from the FCC filings that it won't be that late.

If we can rely on a station to know its own time --- edited out, because we have changes, lol.

Konrad2

06-07-09, 11:53 PM

lewlew

06-08-09, 01:58 AM

Whoa! I haven't used my pal dvr in a week. Thought I would check the guide to see how it matched what Lee suggested. To my surprise my guide has filled in to 7 full days on 2.1, 6.1, 8.1, 10.1, 10.2, & 12.1. 66 hours on 2.2. The other 18 stations I get I have deleted from the guide and didn't bother to check. I'm much happier now.:D

p.s. The pal dvr uses digital tvgos, not the original analog.

TalkingRat

06-08-09, 02:05 AM

>> How about getting digital working properly before taking analog away?
>
> From where I sit, there's nothing wrong with KGW or KATU.

There's nothing wrong with transmitting a bogus datastream that
generates decode errors? There's nothing wrong with the example
frames in message 7399? There's nothing wrong with replacing a
reliable broadcast with an unreliable broadcast?

There was nothing wrong with my reception. You were having trouble with your reception, and assuming everyone else did too, because you were getting bad packets. Is it possible to know if the packets are altered on the receiving end instead of the transmission end? If the station was sending out bad datastreams, would everyone get the same bad picture? I am 14 miles away, 1 edge, indoor antenna, and don't get the kind of pictures you posted for KGW. Where I get pixelation, it is usually corrected by changing tuners. But cheer up, full power will be restored at 3:04 am Friday morning.

TalkingRat

06-08-09, 02:08 AM

lewlew, do you think the TVGOS is working better because you deleted channels, or is it the new firmware?

lewlew

06-08-09, 02:24 AM

1) no
2) no

I didn't do anything. I'm still on 201. This just came all by itself. Others around the country are experiencing similar improvement with tvgos and their missing info.

scottcorinna

06-08-09, 11:10 AM

Konrad2 I have to agree with Talkingrat, I don't have the problems with reception that you do. Not to be argumentative but no one else seems to have these problems.

I'm curious, what equipment are you using to monitor your reception? Is it possible you have a fault in your system?

Just wondering...

TalkingRat

06-08-09, 01:18 PM

lewlew, that is really good news! Now I only need to decide if I can justify $250 vs. a garage sale VCR.

Konrad2

06-08-09, 04:04 PM

> You were having trouble with your reception, and assuming
> everyone else did too, because you were getting bad packets.

I've been making a point to distinguish between reception
problems and problems with the bits transmitted by various
TV stations. Reception problems will vary. If the TV station
transmits bad bits, everyone will receive bad bits.

> Is it possible to know if the packets are altered on the
> receiving end instead of the transmission end?

It can be possible to tell if you are getting perfect
reception or not. Some tuners report the results of FEC
(Forward Error Correction). If FEC was successful, you
have a 100% perfect copy of the bits transmitted by the
TV station. You then know that any problems with the bits are
the fault of the TV station, or something upstream (TV network
sending out bad bits, transmission/reception problems between
the TV network and the TV station, ...).

> If the station was sending out bad datastreams, would everyone
> get the same bad picture?

Yes. Although if someone also has a reception problem, they would
get the reception problems in addition to whatever problem the
TV station sends out.

> I am 14 miles away, 1 edge, indoor antenna, and don't get the kind
> of pictures you posted for KGW.

I'm fairly sure I have never posted pictures from KGW. The two
frames in message 7399 are from KATU's "this" subchannel. Please
note the line in message 7399 where I say that it is NOT a reception
problem. The FEC was successful, so I have a 100% perfect copy of
the bits transmitted by KATU. They transmitted that garbage.

> But cheer up, full power will be restored at 3:04 am Friday morning.

I have plenty of signal strength from KGW.

TalkingRat

06-08-09, 11:04 PM

Konrad, as you have just explained, I may be remembering times when you were only reporting bad bits without pixelation problems. You may have mentioned the FEC quality was fine and I didn't catch the significance of that. Or you may have been reporting a breakup that happens rarely, and others haven't noticed it as a problem.

I do think I look at those bit errors differently. When you post a bad picture and says it's a station problem, and nobody else noticed a problem that night, I would look for a cause other than a station problem. When changing tuners fixes my problem, I don't see it as a station problem, although it's possible the tuner is averaging errors, and not every tuner is as forgiving.

I mixed up the KATU picture with the KGW data. I associated breakup problems with KGW because of your comment that KGW needed to "get digital working properly before shutting down analog." As long as KGW's picture comes through ok, I don't see a few misplaced bits as a showstopper. It's designed with some redundancy so it still works with a few errors, and it's working properly, or at least properly enough. JMO, of course. You're a techie so I don't expect you to agree.

scowl

06-08-09, 11:25 PM

Konrad2 I have to agree with Talkingrat, I don't have the problems with reception that you do. Not to be argumentative but no one else seems to have these problems.

I watch HDTV with a free open source software (mplayer) and it's having no problems decoding any streams from any stations in town. I can easily generate "errors" however by overloading the system so it can't write to disk fast enough and the ATSC receiver driver will overrun its buffer and drop packets. That is one of a half-dozen ways to get a corrupt stream.

scottcorinna

06-09-09, 05:04 PM

scowl, your saying that by generating too much signal your able to create errors?

I remember a 6 db pad being shipped with HD receivers when I bought mine. Is that still the case? I had no use for one since I'm far enough away from the towers to not overload my receivers.

I was also told a few years ago by a KGW engineer that a RF pad can help calm some of the reception problems created by ghosting. I have no idea if thats true but anything that may help someone with reception is worth exploring.

scowl

06-09-09, 07:20 PM

scowl, your saying that by generating too much signal your able to create errors?
I don't know what "generating too much signal" means. The TV station generates the signal.

I can "create" errors on a HTPC by making the system too busy to get all the data from the ATSC receiver card to the disk before the receiver card's buffer overfills. The driver will throw away packets at that point, then you have a corrupt MPEG-2 stream on your disk even though you have "perfect reception" of the station.

scottcorinna

06-09-09, 07:50 PM

I meant using too large of an antenna and overloading the receiver with signal strength. Older receivers could be overloaded and would just give up trying to decode the signal. That's why the 6db pad.

skihoodoo

06-09-09, 09:47 PM

this was posted today by kgw http://tr.im/nYbs
Below is the transition schedule for Portland stations on Friday, June 12th:

KGW 03:05:00 am

KATU 11:35:00 pm

KOIN Stays on analog to serve the “Nightlight” Program

KOPB-TV 01:05:00 am

KPTV 09:30:00 am

KPXG Transitioned already

KNMT Transitioned already

KRCW-TV 09:00:00 am

KPDX 09:30:00 am

TalkingRat

06-09-09, 11:38 PM

Thanks, Skihoodoo!

So it's official, but it doesn't match what they said a couple days ago, so I'm going to delete the older post times, so it isn't so confusing.

OPB is the early bird.

scowl

06-10-09, 11:37 AM

R11

06-10-09, 05:25 PM

Anybody watching the NBA finals on ABC? Have you seen the completely asinine FLASHING KATU bug on the transitions after commercials before the abc bug goes up? Unbelievable :mad:. Please tell me this is a glitch... If not, what the hell are those morons thinking? They already have arguably the worst picture quality locally (outside of OPB which I don't even count or watch any longer since it's so bad), and now they stoop to the bush league level like this. All these bugs are the most worthless, pointless and annoying practice to start with, and now they want to make them even more annoying? :rolleyes: Do they really think that putting this ridiculous crap on the screen will promote "brand awareness"? Do they seriously think people have no clue what channel they are watching? And they wonder why less people are watching....

ron

Lee Wood

06-10-09, 07:45 PM

Have you seen the completely asinine FLASHING KATU bug on the transitions after commercials before the abc bug goes up?
ronIt's an ABC network triggering problem, not a KATU effort.

R11

06-10-09, 08:06 PM

It's an ABC network triggering problem, not a KATU effort.You have saved my sanity Lee (what little there is left of it anyway...). I already had visions of flashing Bachelorette promos dancing in my head :eek:

ron

dbird29

06-11-09, 05:04 PM

What's the deal?

HD & SD back on Dish?

skihoodoo

06-11-09, 06:37 PM

What's the deal?

HD & SD back on Dish?

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=61026&p=irol-newsArticle&t=Regular&id=1298522&

Phantom Gremlin

06-11-09, 09:53 PM

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=61026&p=irol-newsArticle&t=Regular&id=1298522&

That article doesn't answer the one important question: who won? :)

ridgefamus

06-11-09, 09:56 PM

That article doesn't answer the one important question: who won? :)

I'd say the Dish subscribers in Portland are among the winners.

JeffinWesternWA

06-11-09, 10:27 PM

Are we expecting any new subchannels (or other channels relocating to the PDX antenna farm) with the June 12 (or soon after) DTV changeover?? Wanted to know before I rescan tomorrow and a couple days after....
(Perhaps a .2 station from KOIN or KPTV/KPDX??)

thanx!

P.S. I HOPE SO!

Paul Curtis

06-12-09, 04:39 AM

this was posted today by kgw http://tr.im/nYbs
Below is the transition schedule for Portland stations on Friday, June 12th:

KOPB-TV 01:05:00 am

Well, it is now 1:39 AM, and KOPB-TV is still transmitting in analog on channel 10.

Hmm...

skihoodoo

06-12-09, 05:55 AM

Well, it is now 1:39 AM, and KOPB-TV is still transmitting in analog on channel 10.

Hmm...
so is ch 7 in Corvallis Koac (booo)

meinename

06-12-09, 06:06 AM

There went KGW analog (90 seconds late according to my clocks) but they are first tonight.

meinename

06-12-09, 06:44 AM

And there goes KGW-DT on RF Ch. 46

meinename

06-12-09, 07:28 AM

No idea if the switch to RF8 went as scheduled 'cause of the way I had the DTV tuners hooked up.

I now know KGW is broadcasting digitally on RF8.
Zenith DTT-900 meter is pegged using a roof-mounted U-75R from Radioshack - approx. 12foot above ground-level
With a 50 foot run of RG-6Q to a diplexer, then a 12 foot run of RG-6Q to another diplexer, finally a 6 foot run of RG-6Q to the DTT-900 at 8.5 miles SW of the towers

Note to self: Diplexers do not pass much VHF/UHF signal on SAT port

skihoodoo

06-12-09, 07:48 AM

No idea if the switch to RF8 went as scheduled 'cause of the way I had the DTV tuners hooked up.

I know KGW is broadcasting digitally on RF8 now.
Zenith DTT-900 meter is pegged

Note to self: Diplexers do not pass much VHF/UHF signal on SAT port

it did and i am getting better signal than the test kgw did a few weeks ago

meinename

06-12-09, 08:05 AM

There went KOPB analog on RF Ch.10

For what it's worth I saw the 4am rebroadcast of the 10pm news on KPTV
They said 9am for KPTV and KPDX. We'll see!

skihoodoo

06-12-09, 08:06 AM

There went KOPB analog on RF Ch.10

For what it's worth I saw the 4am rebroadcast of the 10pm news on KPTV
They said 9am for KPTV and KPDX. We'll see!
koac in corvallis is gone as well
back up on 7 digital

meinename

06-12-09, 08:09 AM

And there went KOPB-DT on RF Ch. 27

EDIT: Flawless switch

EDIT2: KOIN announced "analog shut off" at 7:28am
Remember it's the night light

dbird29

06-12-09, 09:48 AM

Jenny Hansson mis-spoke this morning.
:rolleyes:

meinename

06-12-09, 10:31 AM

Oops! :eek:
An edit is in order! :rolleyes:

EDIT:Well maybe just this post cause they are already rolling the nightlight programming now on analog RF Ch.6

So KOIN is now transitioned at 7:30am

TalkingRat

06-12-09, 11:24 AM

So we have some diehards, watching as analog gets shut down. I treated it like a visit from the tooth fairy, and chose to wake up to it. I noticed that 10.4 had lost its SAP2 (OPB Music), but saw it was back later. I had audio sync problems on KOIN and KGW this morning, first time in many months, but both were resolved by channeling up and back again. I also noticed that 32.2 has EPG info now.

For the Ch 8/10 changes, I tried a supplemental scan first, just to see what it did. The scan indicated that no new channels were found, but actually it added all the 8s and 10s as duplicates. Using the channel up button, it sequenced through them all; e.g., 8.1 with no picture (real UHF), then 8.1 with picture (real VHF). It was weird to hit the button twice and get the same subchannel, with different results. I did the full scan to get rid of the old virtual channels, but on the Zat that meant losing my favorites settings. I didn't have any timers set for it to mess up.

I also rescanned my analog TV, to see what effect shutting down two analog stations had. The scan found a few more stations, not that they are viewable. Reception on the viewable ones was visibly improved. I am mostly curious about translator reception, to see what full power broadcasts can still be viewed via translator.

skihoodoo

06-12-09, 12:04 PM

there went 12 analog and 30 come back up with kpdx on it

meinename

06-12-09, 12:09 PM

Wow that was fast :eek:

DTV KPTV dropped out for me
Then Analog KPTV drops out.
Finally I see KPDX-DT comes in where KPTV-DT was (RF Ch.30)

I can only assume KPDX-DT on RF Ch.48 was pulled first.

And I cant seem to pull in analog KRCW (RF Ch.32) either but that can easily be me. :confused:

Still have analog KPDX as of time of post

EDIT: So KPTV is transitioned, but as of 9:27am KPDX-DT has moved to channel RF Ch.30 with KPDX is still active

earletp

06-12-09, 12:10 PM

Kinda anti-climatic for me, I switched to digital five and a half years ago and haven't seen much analog since then. I did have to re-scan but other than that, pretty uneventful.

meinename

06-12-09, 12:31 PM

There went KPDX off-air...

KPDX has transitioned.

dbird29

06-12-09, 12:34 PM

I have had to rescan a couple of times.
12.1 was KPDX not KPTV
Then there were two 12.1, KPTV & KPDX.

All good now.

JeffinWesternWA

06-12-09, 12:47 PM

My tv is seeing a channel 41-1 but, no pic/audio, could that be the new channel that WATCH TV is coming around with??

supposedly WATCH TV will fix the broken (from Dec storm) xmitter AND move the KORS (ch 16-1 thru 16-4), xmitter also (up the pole to where one of the old analog stations had previously used for slighty better signal coverage/strength), any news WHEN that is scheduled for??

My KPDX signal still seems weak (they had said previous they were at 1/2 - 2/3 power but my sig strength is still same after switch over and fluctuating a lot - w/ no wind this am - here in West Camas), maybe it's not turned up yet power wise?? Diddo for KORS signal, no diff there either....

any new subchannels scheduled to follow all this??????

skihoodoo

06-12-09, 12:51 PM

did kptv digital 12 come back on the air

this migt be my problem
• June 12, 2009 Terminate analog operations on Channel 12 between 6:01
AM and 12:00 PM, noon. Connect digital amplifier cabinet
to the antenna. Connect digital cabinet to Channel 12
antenna. Terminate digital operations on Channel 30.
Begin digital operations on Channel 12 at 21.9 kW and
increase power later in the day to 24.5 kW.3
IMPLEMENT FULL POST-TRANSITION
OPERATIONS.

meinename

06-12-09, 12:57 PM

My tv is seeing a channel 41-1 but, no pic/audio, could that be the new channel that WATCH TV is coming around with??

supposedly WATCH TV will fix the broken (from Dec storm)and move the KORS (ch 16-1 thru 16-4), xmitter also (up the pole to where one of the old analog stations had previously used), any news WHEN that is cheduled for??

My KPDX signal still seems weak (they had said previous they were at 1/2 - 2/3 power but my sig strenth is still same, maybe it's not turned up yet?? Diddo for KORS signal, no diff there either....

any new subchannels scheduled to follow all this??????

.2 network (Sony Pictures) was supposed to launch the day of the Feb. transition.
KPTV-DT or KPDX-DT were supposed to carry it.
After the delay, anything about it got really quiet. :( :confused:

Supposedly "when" KWVT-LD goes online on RF Ch.49 at the Portland Towers, we'll get RTN on a sub channel. :)

I'll believe it when I see it coming in on my ATSC tuners. ;) :D

meinename

06-12-09, 01:03 PM

did kptv digital 12 come back on the air

I'm getting it on my U75R/HVR1600 setup. U75R/Zenith gets it too...

My Olevia 527/Bowtie combo won't pick it up.

EDIT: Too tired to pay anymore attention to KRCW.
Just have someone play taps when it does go off.

dbird29

06-12-09, 01:46 PM

All the stations are now tuning and on channel.

Good job everyone!

ejthomp

06-12-09, 01:58 PM

Here in Vancouver, as of 11AM. I seem to have lost OPB, FOX and CBS.

I've rescanned a couple times on two different TVs and two different antennas.

Wonder what is up...

JeffinWesternWA

06-12-09, 01:59 PM

Not so sure, ...I have less signal strenght on KGW and KOPB DT's than before, only increase is on KPTV DT, the expected "fix" on KPDX DT hasn't materialized nor on KORS DT,also 16-4, JTV is "dark", though aybe unrelated to all this...I think there is LOTS of work yet to do....no new subs either...all the channels are "up" as expected, though KATU still has analog ch 2 going, guess they shut off later today, I'm here in far East Vancouver/West Camas

TalkingRat

06-12-09, 02:16 PM

I had to scan for 8/10/12 but not for 49. The only station that's fluctuating on signal is 22, not sure why that one. KOIN analog looks crystal clear today, lol. And the digital looks sharper, and I did not expect to see a difference there. I sure hope all goes well on the phone side, too.

Locally, KOIN reporter took us inside the call center a couple times, and it did not look hectic there at all. I was looking for national stories about how the phones are going, clicked on an article about busy phones in Ohio, and was amused. The station shut down at 8 am, and by 10:15 am, their 4 phone people had 40 calls. That's 'busy' in Ohio.

ejthomp

06-12-09, 02:30 PM

Here in Vancouver (North End - Salmon Creek)at 11:30am the KGW signal is weak and no OPB at all.

Also, I've lost the guide listing off my HTPC running Windows XP MCE. Bummer!!!

Why would the signals get weaker? OPB has always been my strongest signal.

Lee Wood

06-12-09, 03:17 PM

I've had mixed results, but not a lot of time to play with things yet.

At my home, near Raleigh Hills, my old Insignia TV (third generation) did not find KGW or KOPB with a rescan. I had to add them manually. I'm saving the HD TiVo and my second generation Zenith TV for tonight.

In my office on NE Sandy my trusty DTC-100 (1.5 generation) connected to a 4-bay bowtie (also in my office) did not find KGW. A Philips Silver Sensor knock-off was worse. With it the DTC-100 did not find any of the VHF channels. My Insignia/Zenith converter box with a 10-inch piece of wire for an antenna found everything except KGW, again.

TalkingRat

06-12-09, 03:34 PM

After I scanned my downstairs TVs this morning, the 4 stations that moved were all at 100% on my CM7000. (Wilsonville) On the Zat they show 100% quality and 90% strength. Then I went upstairs to the room facing the towers, and 8/10/12 came up at half strength on the Zenith meter. The difference is, I use a Terk HDTVa (garage attic, about 5' lower than second floor antennas) for the downstairs, and coathanger (4 bay) antennas upstairs. The coathanger pulled in VHF analog, and digital RF 4 and RF7 on all TVs last year, so I assumed the hi-VHF changes would be ok. And they are, I have no picture issues, it's just that signal strength doesn't leave room for nasty weather or occasional power reductions. If I start getting issues, I plan to trim the dipole I used before ION moved.

schwinn555

06-12-09, 03:35 PM

1230PM Friday. I've rescanned several times. I still can't get channels 8 KGW & 10 KOPB. I've checked the info they are both on the Skyline tower. I get channel 22 fine which is on the Skyline tower. I also get channel 12 fine so VHF antenna isn't likely the reason either.(My indoor antenna has always worked fine for both UHF & VHF) I'm in downtown NW Portland near Montgomery Park. I'm apox 2 miles or so from the towers. So shouldn't need an outdoor antenna. I'm guessing maybe 8 & 10 are over shooting this part of the neighborhood as I'm so close? I also have never gotten channels 45 & 16 but not a big deal. I'm really going to miss channel 10 at times.
Edit:
OK I now realize from looking at channels 2 & 6 analog that I don't get all that good of a picture. However 12 digital is great. Moving the antenna around enables me to get channels 8 & 10. So I'll have to try a longer cable and perhaps a better inside antenna. So much for the towers all being at the same location chant. When your as close to them as I am it does make a big difference. So it's back to the old days of moving the antenna all around when you change channels.

JeffinWesternWA

06-12-09, 03:47 PM

went for a run, got me thinkin: I "bet" the transition of KGW and KOPB from UHF to VHF has meant the lost signal strength I and others are experiencing?? (edit: All others same or better so far today)

KRCW-DT (32-1) has always been my strongest over here in West Camas - though the old CW stations were designed to cover large viewing areas, sometimes 2 with a single x mitter, no surprise I get it so strong... (I'm above south side of Lacamas Lake at about 250~ elevation, 16+ miles from x mitter, but, rolling hills, trees, etc., along the way, no "edge" in reception thankfully) KRCW still is peaking at 100 in about a minute after locking in and steady mid high 90's strength in fair weather, KORS always been lowest strength; peaks just over 50+ and running high 40's steady in fair weather, it should be unwatchable but, doesn't pixel/break up till low 40's signal which happens in often in very inclimant weather...

my antenna is in the attic at about 20+ ft height, A Weingard model 1080p UHF/VHF (ch 7-69 combo), with a single 75~ft RG6 cable run to my wall plate as the only "cut" (no splits), then to my Toshiba Regza TV....it is oreinted well to the farm

I've tweaked/oriented several times in the past for best KORS/KPDX signal since they have been weakest stations; KPDX since the Dec storm, ...it IS suppposed to get fixed via my correspondence with the station and KORS also has a broken antenna x mitter and they are gonna move repair and "higher up the pole" which should help their signal coverage too...(both suppposedly at the 12 June transition or soon after)

Still, I bet the switch to VHF from formerly broadcasting UHF IS the KGW/KOPB decreased signal cause some antennas are getting now that I "ponder" it...

Edit update: 1315PDT: KATU-DT is still on ch 43 and coming in strong at over 90+ signal. Diddo for KOIN-DT on Ch 40 ...Have they/are they changing channels today?? they're great! Ch 12 FOX KPTV is stronger here - high 80's now, w/ 90+ peak, that's up 10-20% from before switchover, they must've fixed their x mitter OR the switch to VHF has helped on that frequency!!...All these DT's: 22 ION, ch 24 TBN, Ch 32 KRCW are the same, clear and strong over here! KPDX is still weak, 60's at best signal, I think they are still reduced power as before ??

(Edit: 1315 Summary: Fox ch 12-1 is better/stronger, KGW 8-1 now seems same as before, almost peaks near 90, steady mid 80's signal, they must've turned up the juice just recently...but, KOPB 10-1-4 still has about 10% weaker signal low 80's peak, running high 70'sm, that's down from before still, all others about the same, KPDX and KORS still weak or "borderline" reception in the case of KORS...)
ughts????

ejthomp

06-12-09, 03:49 PM

kimco52

06-12-09, 04:47 PM

Interesting the results you all are having. Still seems to be some confusion out there, also, about what is happening.
First, in reality, KATU and KOIN are not transitioning. They are staying where they have been on DT. KATU is just going to turn off their analog transmitter on CH2. Their DT is staying on 43. KOIN is only changing the feed to their analog to the nightlite thingy that just loops and tells you how to scan in umpteen languages. Then they will turn off their analog in a few weeks. Their DT remains the same.

Transition means to change. KOIN and KATU aren't changing anything, RF wise.
KPTV, KGW, and KOPB are transitioning by changing frequencies after they shut off their analogs. They are moving their DT's to their old VHF channels at less power than they had on their analog VHF's and their UHF digital channels. This may give you mixed results in signal levels. You really can't compare their VHF-DT levels with their analog levels nor even their UHF-DT signals, other than as a point of discussion.

KPDX-DT is only transitioning from UHF-48 to UHF-30. I have nothing to do with them but it really shouldn't be any more than changing the feed from the studio from one STL to another. Since KPTV and KPDX are in the same control room, after KPTV removes their input to the CH30 chain, they can switch the KPDX signal to it. Your signal strength on KPDX-DT now should be the same as it was for KPTV-DT prior to the changeover....as in yesterday. Today's KPDX-DT signal comparison today to yesterday is meaningless. Totally different.

I am in east Gresham. I have two rooftop mounted antennas. They are both so old I don't recall their brands. I do know the VHF was a fringe one when I bought it 39 years ago. It is on a 5' mast on one corner of the house where it has been since 1974 (I use the antenna on a previous house at first). I have a fringe UHF only antenna on a 8' mast in the center of the roof about 15 feet from the VHF antenna. It has been there since about 1978. Those are fed via separate RG-6 to my "crawl space" in the basement. There I have an amplifier on each, then combine them with other stuff (VCR, satellite) go through a distribution amp and feed to different tv's throughout the house.
I have one digital TV (Mitsubishi 2003 model) and 5 other analog sets, 4 with converters. I finished rescanning all an hour ago and all channels are reading 100% on my CM7000 and about the same on the Zenith and Apex boxes except for channel 16, which reads about 60%. 16-1,2,3 work, 4 has nothing. My Mits gets all channels and subchannels (except 16-4) just fine. It doesn't have a signal level meter or anything comparable.

Of course, the wind is not blowing and it is not raining. I may have to move the UHF to a different location on the roof because of some stupid trees in the way that my neighbors probably won't take down. When I put the antennas on the roof way back then, I could see all the towers. Now, I mainly see trees. I'll play with location and height if needed. My only questionables now are 2 & 6 during bad weather. Of course, I haven't seen the VHF-DT's in bad weather yet. It is summer and I would rather not have to deal with it yet. I want some sun and nice weather for about 4 months more than I want to watch tv.

mntmst

06-12-09, 05:06 PM

My in-house UHF modulators for security and FTA sat channels have much better video on the analog inputs for the TV receivers. The S/N ratio seems much better. It's mixed at the head amp for the antenna so I guess the digital signals don't seem to affect the AGC as much on older sets.

JeffinWesternWA

06-12-09, 05:09 PM

Intersting, and thanx, no wonder KATU and KOIN seem same, :) I wish KPDX would fix their low power "problem" since the Dec storm... Do you know any news on "when" KORS will move their antenna to another location as they mentioned to me this winter and, when ANY new subchannles are due to appear??:cool:

thanx!

ejthomp

06-12-09, 05:17 PM

....
KPTV, KGW, and KOPB are transitioning by changing frequencies after they shut off their analogs. They are moving their DT's to their old VHF channels at less power than they had on their analog VHF's and their UHF digital channels. This may give you mixed results in signal levels. You really can't compare their VHF-DT levels with their analog levels nor even their UHF-DT signals, other than as a point of discussion.

........

In other words..... Although I've received KOPB and KGW digital signals perfectly through yesterday....I'm screwed today...

Looks like I'm going to need a new antenna.

TalkingRat

06-12-09, 05:22 PM

II wish KPDX would fix their low power "problem" since the Dec storm...

But KPDX did fix their transmitter problem, by replacing it with KPTV's digital transmitter. KPDX this morning took over both the frequency (RF30) and the transmitter KPTV had been using. That's why kimco said the signal strength for KPDX should be the same as it had been for KPTV. :)

TalkingRat

06-12-09, 05:26 PM

In other words..... Although I've received KOPB and KGW digital signals perfectly through yesterday....I'm screwed today...

Looks like I'm going to need a new antenna.

Falcon's spreadsheet has a pending application for KGW to maximize at 45kW, up from the currently approved 25kW.

JeffinWesternWA

06-12-09, 05:27 PM

ejt, "if" your existing antenna is a UHF "only" antenna, then yes, you probably need a new VHF/UHF combo...if it's not a UHF only, try first a single cable from anetenna to tv (no splits, DVD players etc.,) just a "direct" cable from teh antenna to tv and tweakoreint the antenna and see if KOPB/KGW are received...

My KGW DOES seem stronger now than this am, almost a 90~ peak, only KOPB is definately weaker, and KPDX is same - still "low" 60's~ signal, same as after the December storm (like KORS which has always been for me about a 50~ peak signal), ...

so maybe KPDX-DT hasn't switched/fixed their equipment yet?? (they are definatley NOT as well signal strength wise as before Dec storm as of 1430 PDT today)...

EDIT: I'm headin ti the attic, maybe the ch 30 (old KPTV, new KPDX x mitter) is a few degrees different on the compass and see if I can im prove KPDX w/losing any signal on KORS... which is quite borderline at best...

RESULT: seems I can get KPDX about almost 20~% improved!! A low 80~s peak signal w/ about a mid 70's steady~ now, (so the old x mitter was a degree or two different for best oreintation) so it's KPDX being a bit better, ...

.. though I about "lost" KORS (signal down to 45~ peak and pixeling a lot, down from 50~), so I'll have to give some of that orientation "back" to get KORS in at it's borderline signal... :) PICKY antenna! but, the x miters must be apart on different poles..

So that's that, unless I hear about another subchannel....thanx all

crossbeaux

06-12-09, 06:25 PM

Thanks for all the information, folks. I did a rescan of my neighbor's converter box here in SE Portland (she's older and not tech savvy), and all channels seem to now be coming in beautifully. And a good thing, since the Soaps on Friday have all the cliffhangers. :)

8bay

06-12-09, 06:48 PM

Well KPTV-DT now comes in good at 12 (it took a single channel yagi and a 2nd tuner to get it before on 30) and the only channel I can't get on the Channel Master 8 bay (which does have OK VHF-HI reception too) is KGW 8, which is pixel garbage. Meh. Time to home-brew up a channel 8 antenna... and see how well the Channel Master 7777 amp combines a VHF narrowband with the UHF's VHF reception.

Windows 7 Media center is borked though, even with a complete re-setup it has no idea there was a digital transition, although it was foisting 10.1 on 10 on me a month ago.

The lack of logic in the transition and channel assignments and re-assignments is still astounding but finally it's done! But now we are stuck with MPEG2 (now nearly 15 years old) smashed into 18mbps and interlaced HD designed for obsolete tube TVs forever. And with all the nice HD content now reformatted to fit overscanning 4:3 TVs...

schwinn555

06-12-09, 07:23 PM

Channels 8 & 10 must have fine tuned things during the day. I can now get all the channels with one antenna location as before the changes. It's a different spot but at least it works.

ejthomp

06-12-09, 08:06 PM

I can't figure this out. My Sony XBR960s (I have two) can't tune in KOPB. I have a large (10') antenna in my attic and I've disconnected every splitter and gone direct to the TVs, but they don't see KOPB at all. All the other channels are fine. And since I live in Salmon Creek, Vancouver, WA all the stations are about the same distance (14 miles) and direction (170). You'd think if I could receive all the others, I could receive KOPB. Especially since it has come in so well up until today.

TalkingRat

06-12-09, 10:10 PM

When ION tested last November, one of my CECBs got its mapping confused. KATU mentioned that some people were reporting they had rescan 3 or 4 times today to get back their signals. When mine got confused, I deleted all channels from the menu, then shut it off for a minute and powered up again, and then started over with a full rescan. The fresh start let it find channels without the old mapping getting in the way. If that doesn't help, it only wastes a few minutes to rule it out. :)

My upstairs antenna that lost half its signal for 8/10/12 this morning? I moved it back to how it was set up for analog, and got 75% signal right away. When I got my CECB, I found it did better away from the wall and not pointing directly at the tower. Now it's up against the wall and aimed directly at the towers again. Come to think of it, that's how my Terk was already aimed, it was just the coathanger that needed to be offset before.

scowl

06-12-09, 11:29 PM

And now for something that's really unimportant. Is the "nightlight" DTV information broadcast going blank every once in a while on channel six? It's kind of alarming in a funny way, like "Wait! I need more information! Come back!" :D

Or maybe it did this all the time. I haven't watched analog in like five years!

dbird29

06-12-09, 11:59 PM

The black video drop out is to help get people to pay attention.

richardmayo

06-13-09, 12:04 AM

Bummer, the KGW transition is rendering the signal too weak for me in NW Vancouver (98685).

Will have to experiment with different antennas and/or locations this weekend.

scowl

06-13-09, 12:21 AM

The black video drop out is to help get people to pay attention.

By not giving them a second or two of information? That makes sense.

dbird29

06-13-09, 12:53 AM

By not giving them a second or two of information? That makes sense.

Whatever.

scowl

06-13-09, 02:48 AM

meinename

06-13-09, 03:01 AM

I'd just like to know where you read they would purposely put glitches into the night light broadcasts because people won't pay attention to a clear uninterrupted broadcast. Perhaps you were joking.

KATU's switch off was perfect. They hit the button and instantly no signal, unlike some stations around the country who played the National Anthem or broadcast the classic Indian head test card for a minute or two.

That would have been classy to see!

EDIT:

This evening (around 11pm) the Olevia 527V with a Bowtie gets almost all of our digital channels here
2 comes in fine with no change
6 comes in fine with no change
8 has lots of "uncorrectable errors" so there are blocks or bars of missing pieces of the video and partial dropouts in the audio.
10 comes in okay but is borderline.
12 won't scan in
22 comes in fine with no change
32 comes in fine with no change
49 comes in fine now, was unreceivable after Dec. storm

Channel 8 errors and Channel 10 are "fixed" by wrapping a ferrite sleeve around the coax just before the connector at the TV

Channel 12 would come in this morning, but even with the ferrite sleeve the Olevia will not lock Ch. 12

Neither my Zenith DTT-900 or my pair of HVR-1600 needed anything, both being attached to a rooftop antenna

jazuanich

06-13-09, 01:28 PM

Until the transition yesterday, I received all of the local channels OTA. As of now, I'm getting a very weak signal on 10-3 and 10-4, but nothing on 10-2, 10-2 and 49-1. All of the other local signals are great. I'm using an attic-based antenna that up until now has worked well. Do I need to try repositioning the antenna, or replacing it, or....? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Dartman

06-13-09, 01:36 PM

I'm on cable but they are saying SOME channel in some areas have gone back to VHF from the UHF they were using for their digital channels before. You might want to check what antennae your using and see if any of those have switched the band they are using now.
I'm sure somebody in here knows exactly what everyone is using now and will pipe in but that's my guess for you.

JeffinWesternWA

06-13-09, 02:13 PM

Note: my above post, I had to reorient my antenna w/ the KPDX signal, I guess the switch for them placed the x mitter where KPTV (fox 12) "was", thus, reorienting my antenna gained almost 20% signal strength, for OPB: I too have lost about 10%+ strength w/ the new VHF vice old UHF signal, still it is strong in the 70'/80's...I'd imagine outa town, for almost everyone 16 - KORS 1-4 would be THE weakest regardless...

So try relocating, and carefully reorienting your antenna (perhaps w/ ONE direct cable from antenna to tv not interupted w/ DVD, VHS, splitters, etc., FIRST to get a realistic signal), 2" changes made noticable differences on my Weingard 1080p antenna at 16+ miles from the towers here above Lacamas Lake (West Camas)...

I still note 16-4 is "there" but blank , not braodcasting JTV per usual, all other subchannels, etc., have been fine, and the 'ol analog translators (ch 5 etc.,) are humming along as well, so those w/ some old tv's and rabbit ears, STILL get a few channels I guess on the spare tv's in this area!

TalkingRat

06-14-09, 01:36 PM

Comments on the transition from Broadcasting and Cable website:

Channel changes, particularly for previously UHF digital stations that were switching to a formerly analog VHF channel, were also driving most of the calls to WFAA and KGW Portland, which was fielding calls with other stations at a common call center.

“That’s really been the number-one call issue,” says [VP of technology] Harper. “We’re learning that folks that have outdoor antennas or attic antennas that were getting DTV okay on UHF are having to re-orient their antennas. So we have to explain that. The other thing we’ve found is that a lot of early adopters bought UHF-only antennas.”

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/279338-Belo_Declares_DTV_Switch_A_Success.php

I think most of us here have combo antennas, but the need to reorient antennas for VHF was apparently not anticipated.

timrpitman

06-14-09, 01:38 PM

I thought you might enjoy this. The kids were watching cartoons on OPB and I wanted to watch Meet The Press this morning. Of course I gave in. So, I went to the garage and grabbed the second digital converter that I haven’t installed yet along with on old black & white portable. I took the ribbon cable from the rabbit ears on the TV and with a converter attached it to the digital box antenna in. I used one of those old cheap co-axial cables that use to come with VCRs and another 75-ohm converter (yeah I never throw anything out) and connected to the TV. I got channel 8. But, the signal was weak, so I wrapped aluminum foil across the rabbit ears and watched a clear, small, black and white Meet The Press. I’m boldly going back into the 1960s. :)