This morning when I checked my channel lineup on my Vista Media Center I only had a handful of channels (KOIN, KATU), but not KGW, KOPB, KPDX, KPTV, etc... After a bit of trial and error and a bit of goolging I was able to get all my ATSC channels back. This is what I did:

1. I made a table of all the local channels current call signs, channel, and frequencies (on an actual sheet of paper):

Callsign | Channel | Frequency | Working
KATU | 2 | 43 | X
KOIN | 6 | 40 | X
KGW | 8 | 8 |
KOPB | 10 | 10 |
KPTV | 12 | 12 |
KPXG | 22 | 22 |
KCRW | 32 | 33 |
KNMT | 24 | 45 |
KPDX | 49 | 30 |


The data comes from this FCC Document (http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/markets/maps_report_0609/Portland_OR.pdf)

2. I marked which channel I was recieving (KATU and KOIN)
3. Shut down the Window Media Center application
4. Edit C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs\atscchannels.xml
5. Delete any channel that I was not receiving
6. Save and exit the editor
7. Start the Windows Media Center application
8. Goto Task->Settings->TV->Guide->Add Missing Channels
9. For each channel that I was not receiving go through the "Add Digital Channel" process using the data from the table.
10. Click Done
11. Verify that all added channel are working again and that each had guide data.

All my channels are working, but I do not have guide data for KMNT (which, really, I could care less about).

don't forget KORS ch 16, it's a Portland "local" and has 4 total channels from: HSN simulcast from Ch 35 on 16-1, BVM on 16-2, KORS (former Ch 20 Camas of KOXI 16-3, JTV on 16-4....

I also get R26 GJ which is religous independent programming (analog) on ch 26, though a bit snowy and audio fuzzy as it's about 40'~ different oreintation than PDX antenna farm..

and all the local repeaters (ch 5 etc., that are analog low power)...

Think Salem area folks get ch 17's also(?), imagine some PDX viewers w/ good sight pick them up also...

http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/06/14/1317250/DTV-Transition-Mostly-Smooth-Windows-Media-Center-Problems

Post on slashdot.org

I get everything except KGW. I get nothing on that, not even low strength - just nothing. What would that mean? If I'm getting all the other channels (2,6,10.1,10.2,12,32,49) I must have both VHF and UHF working, right? I put in the frequency as 8, and the channel as 8.1. Nada.

If you've been reading the posts you'll see I had the same issue with 8 & 10. The fix for me was to move my antenna. Best of luck.

Almost a flawless transition, except for the loss of KGW. I'm getting phenomenal signal strength from every other channel except KGW. With that I'm getting little or nothing. Reorienting the antenna didn't seem to work. I might have to install my outdoor HDA-5700 this weekend.

Ben

Almost a flawless transition, except for the loss of KGW. I'm getting phenomenal signal strength from every other channel except KGW. With that I'm getting little or nothing. Reorienting the antenna didn't seem to work. I might have to install my outdoor HDA-5700 this weekend.

Ben


I'm in a similar situation, but am not sure what to do. I get a great OTA signal from 2-1,6-1,12-1, but I have lost 8-1 (KGW) 8-2 KGW Weather, and 10-1 (PBS). I have tried many different anteana positions, but can't get them back. I am at the top of the hill in West Linn, and always had strong signals on all of them. Can anyone help a tech-know-nothing, and suggest what I should do?

TIA,

Craig

Well, I seem to be out of luck with 8-1 and 10-1. Perhaps a new anteana is in order.

One additional question. I am finally getting my D*TV dish upgrade. (I know, Iknow...get with the program). Most of what we view is network, so OTA has been fine in the past along with the D*TV HD package.

New dish goes in tomorrow so I will begin receiving locals in HD over the dish. How does the PQ compare to OTA. Are the locals over the dish pretty compressed?

I'm in a similar situation, but am not sure what to do. I get a great OTA signal from 2-1,6-1,12-1, but I have lost 8-1 (KGW) 8-2 KGW Weather, and 10-1 (PBS). I have tried many different anteana positions, but can't get them back. I am at the top of the hill in West Linn, and always had strong signals on all of them. Can anyone help a tech-know-nothing, and suggest what I should do?

TIA,

Craig
Hey Craig,

Right off the bat, it sounds like you need to run a rescan on your converter box. If that doesn't change anything, I would go into the menu and manually delete 8-1, 8-2, and 10-1, 10-2, 10-3, and 10-4. Scroll through your channels to make sure they are really removed then manually punch in 8-1.

Hopefully from there you can pull up the signal meter and try messing around with the antenna to see if any signal pulls through at all.

Thanks Chris,

I did a rescan, and am getting everything except KGW and OPB. I read through the previous pages and see that some people moved their anteana to an entirely different location and had success. I have tweeked it with no success, and will try moving it to another part of the attic. D*TV is upgrading my dish in the morning, so I will be getting locals in HD the dish. I would like to keep the OTA going to compare PQ. Not sure if they are going to replace my old RCA D-210 receiver or not.

Thanks,

Craig

The FCC had a consumer alert out yesterday, recommending "double re-scanning" if there are problems with the stations that moved. Their antenna advice, however, is nothing new. If KGW gets their big power boost request approved, that may help some of you. I'm feeling lucky that my indoor antennas can handle the change.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-291403A1.pdf


...But in some cases where stations moved their digital frequencies on June 12, simple scanning may not be enough. There is a procedure – sometimes called “double re-scanning” – that can clear your box’s memory of saved channels. These earlier scans may have saved channel information that is now incorrect.

There are five simple steps to a double re-scan for a converter box or digital TV, which are as follows:

1. Disconnect the antenna from the box or digital TV;
2. Re-scan the box or digital TV without the antenna connected. As with any scan follow the on-screen instructions or owner’s manual for your device;
3. Unplug the box or digital TV from the electrical outlet for at least one minute;
4. Reconnect the antenna to the box or digital TV and plug the unit into the electrical outlet;
5. Rescan the box or digital TV one more time.

Well, I seem to be out of luck with 8-1 and 10-1. Perhaps a new anteana is in order.
I have a Channel Master CECB box with a cheap RS VHF/UHF rabbit ear antenna in one bedroom in the middle of the house. It easily received all UHF previously, but now gets very low signal level for high VHF, i.e. 8, 10, and 12. So I'm also looking for a new antenna. But because it's just a bedroom, I can't have a huge monstrosity sitting there. I've read a little of the antenna discussion on AVSforum, and (unfortunately) nothing seems to leap out at me as the antenna to get.

My circumstances are different in the front bedroom, which has a nearly unobstructed view of the towers. My TiVo HD reports signal strength of about 70 for high VHF channels 8, 10, and 12 using a (nominally) UHF-only Silver Sensor antenna. All the UHF channels come in at 90+ or even 100. I don't know if the Silver Sensor will be OK for high VHF once there is inclement weather.

Let us know if your research leads you to a good indoor high VHF / UHF antenna.

I finally figured out this whole time … my input was in the "regular" TV (there's another coaxial input plug for DTV) the whole time— when I could've been using DTV these past few years. D'OH!

So, I did a scan, and voilà— some channels. It's like a miracle. OK, so now how do you get the 'missing' ones-- 10, etc. (I get KCRW, PDX, ION, QUBO, and maybe one or two more)?

Thanks.

I might have to install my outdoor HDA-5700 this weekend.

Well the HDA-5700 didn't work that well, so I went to Radio Shack and bought their only remaining antenna (apparently they had a run on them over the weekend. Go figure :-), a 15-1868, a simple, non-amplified antenna. And it worked perfectly, even through my 4-way splitter. I've got to clean up the cabling a bit, but I'm getting near perfect signal on every channel now. Simple is better sometimes.

Ben

(Helpful info here at antenna web (http://www.antennaweb.org/).)

Does not apply to me, since my antenna faces the correct way, picking up a few stations, but not others. Bizarre.

Read some of the antenna reviews elsewhere on this thread and others....Building my home a year ago and planning for this: I used those sites/reviews and decided that with all the stations coming from close to the same direction that "separation" of all these channels being so close together was a key - along with ability to get lower power signals and of course overall "size" for my attic fit. In other markets, I read more than a few times, the Weingard 1080p UHF/VHF combo suburban rated antenna pulled in stations that neighbors antennas could not even "see" w/o beign amplified. So I'd recommend you stick w/ Weingard/Channelmaster brands, new RG6 cable, quality splitters and fewer of 'em possible, keep connectors/cuts to a minimum and, first: go to antenna web/fool sites and review your specific situ. Go one or more "sizes" bigger than recommended by the Web/Fool sites. (I was often recommended a table top indoor by those sites "experts", even after explaining KORS for example). If you have an "edge" in your reception, then OTA may be tough, figure then ONLY outdoor mounted antenna high as possible, and study amplifiers... without an edge: an attic mount should suffice. In all cases: orient, orient, reorient, and do it again in a few days! It DOES make a huge difference in a few degrees of compass heading! I'm 16+ miles to the east above Lake Lacamas on the south side at about 250'~ elevation, no "edge" in receptionbut, going away there are rolling hills, trees, industrial buildings, 2 airports, etc., to the towers...my Weingard 1080p and Toshiba Regza DTV combo reads an 85+ steady signal (a 90~ on KGW) on all PDX channels (a 100 on KRCW) w/ exception of KOPB, that's a 75~ now (down from a 90~ when OPB was on UHF) and the low power KORS ch 16's: mid-high 40's signal only (to a 52~ at best peak) - and bad weather pixeling/signal loss on KORS still exists. My antenna is about 20+' high, in the attic, looks "through 2 non-metal roofs", connected via to ONE tv by one cable only interrrupted by the "wall plate" that divides the cable. Re-Orienting just a few degrees means about 20% signal strength changes too. Happy reading and shopping!:) I think w/ the weird PDX landscape w/ the west hills, local "edges" of reception, need for LP repeaters, etc., that Comcast will get a lot of takers for basic cable unfortunately...

iomatic, since you are new to digital antenna aiming, I'll add that digital antenna aiming can be quite different than analog.

Digital is fussier, and high wind can bump a roof antenna enough to cause reception problems. As Ben says, "Simple is better sometimes," and indoor antennas work for me. I get analog off the back end of my indoor antenna, from 30-50 miles away, but being slightly off direction makes a big difference in the signal strength of the VHF digital stations.

I'm 15 miles south of towers, 1 edge. I get all the local stations with indoor antennas, except that I recently lost KORS-CA (16.x) on the ground floor when it cut back to 6kW until the FCC deals with KSLM's interference claim. When I switched from analog to digital, I grabbed a long coax cable and checked around the room for the sweet spot. It was a complete surprise. So in saying your antenna is facing the right way, if you mean it was aligned for analog, your work is not done yet.

from Mike at KVWT e-mailed to me today,..ref KWVT and Portland! So maybe by 2010 hopefully two more channels!

We have filed an application. The FCC is currently accepting competing applications until June 30. If no competing applications are filed, then it would likely be 60 to 90 days before a construction permit is granted. Then a couple months to negotiate the lease and order and install the equipment.

If there are competing applications, then it could be years, and would likely be determined at auction at some future date.

If we are successful in licensing, there should be no problem getting the signal in most of Camas, but if you are in a valley or behind a hill from the TV towers, it might require a good outdoor antenna. (Don't judge the coverage of low power stations by KORS. We have heard that KORS is aiming all of it's power South.)

We will be on physical channel 49 in Portland. Retro TV will be on virtual channel 17-2

For a similar coverage map, look at KPXG-LP digital coverage map. We are planning to combine into their antenna at the same power level...


Thanks for your interest!

Michael Mattson
KWVT Salem - DTV 17-1
KSLM Salem - DTV 17-2
Northwest Television, LLC
mike@kwvtsalem.com
www.kwvtsalem.com

Almost a flawless transition, except for the loss of KGW. I'm getting phenomenal signal strength from every other channel except KGW. With that I'm getting little or nothing. Reorienting the antenna didn't seem to work. I might have to install my outdoor HDA-5700 this weekend.

Ben

I lost KGW (8-1, 8-2) too. I used to receive excellent signal quality from KGW but now I get nothing. This just happend a few days ago and I don't know what is going on. The other channels are still there. I re-scan the channels again and again but KGW is totally gone. My antenna can receive both VHF and UHF so I don't think there is something wrong with my antenna.

What happen to KGW? Does anyone know?

It's there (KGW) and went from UHF back to VHF (ch 8) so: unplug everything, drink a beer, check your connections/wires and try rescanning tip posted above,... plan on reorienting your antenna CAREFULLY a couple times, that should do it,... I'm getting it over in Camas w/90+ signal on an attic antenna but, I definately had to reorient a few times, especially to get KPDX and KGW back to full strength readings after 12 June switchover....

I am just about the stop subscribing to cable and just use my OTA. All the OTA channels seem to be coming in OK. My question, I see signal strength numbers mentioned again and again on this forum. What are you using to get that reading? Is there a meter that I can get or something?

Thanks for any enlightenment.

Your DTV or your converter box "if" it incorporates a signal strength meter to view on tv screen (see instructions) should give you relative #'s, w/ 60+ being minimum desired and screen pixelation/clipping often happening at 50~, (sometimes more, sometimes/usually less strength, weather WILL affect DTV)..here in Portland area about 26 stations:
2-1, 2-2, 6-1, 8-1, 8-2, 10-1,2,3,4, 12-1, 16-1,2,3,4 (probably your weakest signalin the area), 22-1,2,3,4, 24-1,2,3,4,5, 32-1,2, 49-1 are the DTV channels, there are other non-english and spanish also available in analog (low power) broadcasts. To the south you can add channel 17's (see above posts) and possibly others...DUMP the cable if the bulk of your wathing is the usual "networks" tht you can se for FREE w/ much higher quality than cable!

Lee, I am located in Winlock Wa and have been receiving OTA digital only for over a year. Post transition I lost 8.1, 8.2, 10.1-10.3 and 12.1. All the other channels from Portland including 2.1, 6.1, 22.1-22.4 32.1, 32.2 and 49.1 still work. I have scanned and re-scanned, tried all 3 of my HD sets and my DVD recorder with built in digital tuner as well, I can't get OPB, KGW or KPTV. I checked antennaweb and the transmitters and locations look to be the same as always, so I'm not sure what's going on. I am using verticaly stacked 91XG's, winegaurd pre-amp, CM rotor with added thrust bearing and a distribution amp. All of my sets have built in digital tuners. Any thoughts on why I have lost these three stations?

I have scanned and re-scanned, tried all 3 of my HD sets and my DVD recorder with built in digital tuner as well, I can't get OPB, KGW or KPTV. I checked antennaweb and the transmitters and locations look to be the same as always, so I'm not sure what's going on. I am using verticaly stacked 91XG's, winegaurd pre-amp, CM rotor with added thrust bearing and a distribution amp. All of my sets have built in digital tuners. Any thoughts on why I have lost these three stations?
You are using 2 very nice UHF-only antennas. In fact, those are so good at UHF that VHF-Hi reception on the 91XG is essentially non-existent.

You'll need to add one of these:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=Y5-7-13

Lee, I am located in Winlock Wa and have been receiving OTA digital only for over a year. Post transition I lost 8.1, 8.2, 10.1-10.3 and 12.1.
Those have moved to VHF-Hi.
8.1 moved from RF Ch. 46 (UHF) to RF Ch. 8 (VHF-Hi)
10.1 moved from RF Ch. 27 (UHF) to RF Ch. 10 (VHF-Hi)
12.1 moved from RF Ch. 30 (UHF) to RF Ch. 12 (VHF-Hi)
All the other channels from Portland including 2.1, 6.1, 22.1-22.4 32.1, 32.2 and 49.1 still work.
Those stayed on UHF. That's why they still work for you with your wonderful UHF-only antennas.

Here in Vancouver, as of 11AM. I seem to have lost OPB, FOX and CBS.

I've rescanned a couple times on two different TVs and two different antennas.

Wonder what is up...

Thanks to this website, I have all my answers, though not the solution yet.

My antenna in the attic worked great up until the changeover when 8,10, and 12 went to VHF. My UHF/VHF antenna should work except for the fact that it is so large, and my attic so small that I can't properly align the antenna. There are too many beams in the attic space so I can't rotate it to the best position.

I'm going to change my antenna and buy two separate smaller antennas. One for UHF and one specifically for channels 8,10, and 12.

Right now in my living room, I'm using the coat hanger antenna for UHF and rabbit ears for the VHF channels and that is working fine. I want to be able to get strong enough signal so I can run several TVs off the attic antennas.

Anyway...thanks for the help everyone.

BTW....going to the local stores and looking at antennas is useless. I didn't find anyone that knows anything about antennas.

Go to SolidSignal.com or one of the other reputable websites and choose a Weingard or Channelmaster brand, Ifound the Weingard 1080p (after reading MANY reviews) not only "fit" in my attic, it was well rated, designed for our "type"of reception, seemed to reject "close" signals and gave deccent reception of fringe signals too, and I could tune/orient it in a small attic, plus, it an be had for well under $50..suggest you review and give it a try...

Right now in my living room, I'm using the coat hanger antenna for UHF and rabbit ears for the VHF channels and that is working fine. I want to be able to get strong enough signal so I can run several TVs off the attic antennas.
Have you tried taking your rabbit ears up to the attic? You may get enough strength without getting a new antenna.

scowl writes:

> I watch HDTV with a free open source software (mplayer) and it's
> having no problems decoding any streams from any stations in town.

I wonder how mplayer's error reporting compares to ffmpeg's?
Something at KPTV changed last summer and since then ffmpeg
reports decode errors every single time, even with perfect reception
(perfect after FEC anyway). Their sibling station KPDX decodes fine.

> I can easily generate "errors" however by overloading the system
> so it can't write to disk fast enough and the ATSC receiver driver
> will overrun its buffer and drop packets. That is one of a
> half-dozen ways to get a corrupt stream.

Good point, but that isn't the problem here. I know when something
goes wrong on my system and I don't blame the TV station for it.

--------------------------

Post transition reception report: The YA-1713 brings in 8, 10, & 12
nicely. The signal strength and quality numbers are almost identical.
At first the tuners were overloading, but 14 dB of attenuation in addition
to the splitters brings the levels down to the optimum range. So I have
plenty of VHF signal if I ever want to add more tuners. UHF (PR-8800) is
working ok, but doesn't have the surplus of signal strength that VHF does.

I've also lost 8.1,10.1,&12.1. I am way out in Vernonia. I've been using a roof mounted RadioShack 160" 190XR UHF/VHF antenna with a Radio Shack TV/HDTV/VCR/FM Antenna-Mounted High-Gain Signal Amplifier for the last 3 years. I had been able to pick up the old analog 8,10,&12 perfect as well as all the Portland digitals, but since digitals for 8,10,12 moved to VHF on 6/12 I've lost all three. Signal strength for the digital channels still on UHF are in the high 80s or 90s according to my Series 3 TiVo, but since rescanning, 8.1,10.1,&12.1 now only peak at 31.

I've verified all connections, took out the amp, splitter, and plugged directly to one tuner, realigned the antenna, but no luck. I'm thinking I'll swap out the antenna with a good Winegard or Channel Master that does VHF/UHF. Does anyone have a recommendation? According to www.tvfool.com I'm 32-33 miles away from the towers. Thanks.

Post transition reception report: The YA-1713 brings in 8, 10, & 12
nicely. The signal strength and quality numbers are almost identical.
At first the tuners were overloading, but 14 dB of attenuation in addition
to the splitters brings the levels down to the optimum range. So I have
plenty of VHF signal if I ever want to add more tuners. UHF (PR-8800) is
working ok, but doesn't have the surplus of signal strength that VHF does.

Interesting that you needed to attenuate the VHF antenna by that much (14dB!)

For what it's worth I got out to my 15 mile house and checked the DTX-9950.
Antenna: RadioShack U-75R at 15 miles
Diplexed into a DiSEqC-controlled fixed satellite system
Cable run is 75 feet
Meter is DigitalStream DTX-9950 CECB

Ch/RF - Quality
===============
2/43 - 88
6/40 - 85
8/ 8 - 59
10/10 - 80
12/12 - 85
16/16 - 65
22/22 - 90
32/33 - 90
49/30 - 95
I can see the drop off at 15 miles on Ch. 8 but don't let the number fool you.
It hasn't dropped out yet.

Again at 8 miles with the same U-75R on a 50 foot run of 3GHz RG6Q using the Hauppauge HVR-1600 and the WinTV Digital Signal meter
Ch/RF - SNR
===============
2/43 - 28.5 dB SNR
6/40 - 28 dB SNR
8/ 8 - 29.7 dB SNR
10/10 - 30+ dB SNR
12/12 - 30+ dB SNR
16/16 - 18.9 dB SNR
22/22 - 29 dB SNR
32/33 - 29 dB SNR
49/30 - 27.5 dB SNR

Meter will not go above 30 dB SNR in 8VSB mode

I did hook up the Olevia to the U-75R with a 100ft run of RG6Q.
Got all the digital stations (2,6,8,10,12,16,22,24,32,49) along with analog 26,35,38,47 clear as day, along with static-filled, colored analog 5 and 6 as well.

Skihoodoo, I see you've edited the Estrella Wiki page to be on 8.2 instead of 8.3. So we are losing local weather for good, then? I was considering that possibility when the local forecasts disappeared. Between the elevator music and Keely, I had started avoiding that channel. But last winter, it was very useful to check for threat of frost. I may even miss it, even though PQ and audio were bad.

Skihoodoo, I see you've edited the Estrella Wiki page to be on 8.2 instead of 8.3. So we are losing local weather for good, then? I was considering that possibility when the local forecasts disappeared. Between the elevator music and Keely, I had started avoiding that channel. But last winter, it was very useful to check for threat of frost. I may even miss it, even though PQ and audio were bad.
Yes that was me i talked with someone at kgw and they confirmed that its a 99.9% sure that its going on 8.2 if it went on 8.3 it would just make the 8.1 feed look worse than it already is and they don't want to switch to 720p to be able to do a .3 channel.

I've also lost 8.1,10.1,&12.1. I am way out in Vernonia. I've been using a roof mounted RadioShack 160" 190XR UHF/VHF antenna with a Radio Shack TV/HDTV/VCR/FM Antenna-Mounted High-Gain Signal Amplifier for the last 3 years. I had been able to pick up the old analog 8,10,&12 perfect as well as all the Portland digitals, but since digitals for 8,10,12 moved to VHF on 6/12 I've lost all three. Signal strength for the digital channels still on UHF are in the high 80s or 90s according to my Series 3 TiVo, but since rescanning, 8.1,10.1,&12.1 now only peak at 31.


That is very odd. VHF is supposed to be easier to receive than UHF and you already said the analog came in fine.

When you check the signal strength, be sure to verify the channel is correct (8 for 8, etc.) I had to force a daily call to get my S3 to use the correct channel. But that was a long time ago.

The only other thing I can think of is to play with antenna positioning and perhaps try removing the amplifier.

That is very odd. VHF is supposed to be easier to receive than UHF and you already said the analog came in fine.
What makes it even more odd is that I got terrible analog reception from the VHF channels with at least one if not two ghosts:

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/kgwntsc.jpg

And I get perfect digital reception on all VHF channels. Maybe it's just a matter of signal strength. :confused:

Digital demodulator chips have delay tap equilizers that
can cancel out static multipath (ghosts). Newer chips can
handle a wider range than early chips. Dynamic multipath
(from airplanes, trimet busses, ...) is still a problem.

What makes it even more odd is that I got terrible analog reception from the VHF channels with at least one if not two ghosts:

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/kgwntsc.jpg

And I get perfect digital reception on all VHF channels. Maybe it's just a matter of signal strength. :confused:

I could pick up analog VHF-Hi inside my house with 2 strong ghosts on 8 and 10. I had 3 strong ghosts on 12.
The ghosts were weaker if I hooked up the roof antenna. I think this is due to increase signal reception of the actual/original signal than any weakening of the ghost signals

I can't get digital 8, 10 or 12 inside the house, but I can with the roof antenna. Go figure...

That is very odd. VHF is supposed to be easier to receive than UHF and you already said the analog came in fine.

When you check the signal strength, be sure to verify the channel is correct (8 for 8, etc.) I had to force a daily call to get my S3 to use the correct channel. But that was a long time ago.

The only other thing I can think of is to play with antenna positioning and perhaps try removing the amplifier.

It does seem odd. I'd try a rescan and if they still didn't come in, I'd have to agree that they are likely overloading the tuner.

If it could be a scan problem, Ken stickied the FCC advisory on the "double rescanning" method here. The double rescan first clears out the memory by scanning without the antenna attached, then you scan again with antenna hooked up.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16643391#post16643391

We lost channel 8 yesterday. It was fine at midnight monday night/tuesday morning but by 5:30am the signal strength had dropped to around 80% and we were experiencing constant audio and video breakups.

This morning it's down to 70% and won't tune at all.

Nothing has changed in my house, and I've been turning it perfectly for months. Now it doesn't even show up in a channel scan. Every other channel still comes in perfectly. What's going on? Are any of the rest of you experiencing this?

I'm getting it just fine here in SE Portland this morning.
SNR of 29.8dB still this morning. Note: 15dB is threshold.
Are you using an indoor antenna?

It's fine 15 mi south, too. Both tuners, no change. Zat 90% strength, 100% quality; CM7000 at 100%, no fluctuation of either meter. KGW has been trasmitting on VHF-8 since June 12.

I think the problem was that my antenna got knocked askew and that my reception on 8 is sensitive. I use a small outdoor antenna destined for the attic but for now just set up behind some furniture in my living room. It's overkill, but I had bad luck with indoor antennas in my location.

well Koin Analog "Nightlight" Program ends saturday i will be tuning in for the cutoff scheduled for around 7:30am one thing i will say about Koin is i like the retro logo on the Analog "Nightlight" Program they are using for the station id

FCC filing was for 6/27/09
So 7:30am it is for the end of full power analog TV in Portland.
7:06am would be a good time to tune in....

Thanks for the tip, dbird. :-)

I have a DTVPAL DVR (for OTA) coming soon and hope to use TVGOS program guide with it. Portland is listed as one of the cities that has TVGOS but I don't seem to find it on my current HD TV tuner. Is the guide that comes with each channel now TVGOS or is TVGOS carried on a sub-channel or something? Somewhere I read that the local CBS station provides TVGOS but a search of the KOIN website shows nothing. Any insight would be appreciated. I just dropped cable and am hoping the DTVPAL will work good in place of the cable provided DVR.

Remember your set has to be off for 2 hours to download the TV Guide but your DTV PAL has to be on.
Here is an excerpt from the manual detailing how the G link cable works (kind of confusing)

YOUR DTVPAL DIGITAL-TO-ANALOG TV CONVERTER
TV GUIDE ON SCREEN OR GUIDE PLUS SETUP
Page 23
You only need to perform the following steps if you have a TV, DVD recorder, or
VCR that includes TV Guide On Screen or Guide Plus. If you do not have a TV
Guide On Screen or Guide Plus device, you will be able to use the DTVPal’s
built-in Program Guide.
TV GUIDE ON SCREEN OR GUIDE PLUS SETUP
If you are currently using TV Guide On Screen or Guide Plus in your analog TV,
DVD recorder, or VCR for over-the-air TV reception (not cable or satellite
service), you will need to change your TV Guide On Screen/Guide Plus setup
option to continue receiving your TV Guide On Screen/Guide Plus listings.
The steps provided walk you through the changes you need to make to
continue receiving show listings when your DTVPal is connected to your Guideenabled
product.
For more detailed instructions or updated support information, refer to
www.tvgos.com/support.
Getting Started
To set up the TV Guide On Screen to communicate with your DTVPal, you’ll
need:
- G-LINK Cable—this cable is required
to continue receiving TV Guide On
Screen/Guide Plus listings in your
Guide-enabled product.
The G-LINK cable was shipped with
your original TV Guide On Screen/
Guide Plus-enabled TV, DVD recorder,
or VCR. If you no longer have the GLINK
cable, visit www.tvgos.com/support.
- Substitute ZIP Code—you will need the five-digit code associated with
your broadcast area. During setup, you will enter the Substitute ZIP
Code in place of your actual ZIP code. These codes are provided on
page 28 of this User’s Guide.
Setting Up Your DTVPal
1 Connect your DTVPal using the instructions on page 2. You should have
connected the TV SET OUT or AUDIO/VIDEO output to the corresponding
input on your Guide-enabled TV, DVD recorder, or VCR.
YOUR DTVPAL DIGITAL-TO-ANALOG TV CONVERTER
TV GUIDE ON SCREEN OR GUIDE PLUS SETUP
Page 24
2 Using your DTVPal remote
control, press MENU, select
Setup, then System
Setup, TV Guide Setup,
then TV Guide & Guide +.
Connecting the G-LINK Cable
1 Connect the G-LINK cable to the G-LINK jack on the back of your TV
Guide-enabled TV, DVR recorder, or VCR.
2 Place the G-LINK wand
approximately one inch in front of
the remote control sensor on your
DTVPal. Use tape to secure the GLINK
wand to the DTVPal’s front
panel.
Note: The remote control sensor is
located on the middle of your
DTVPal’s front panel.
TV Guide Setup
G-LINK Wand(s)
Connect plug to Guideenabled
product
G- LINK Wand
G-LINK Wand
IR Sensor
1 inch
YOUR DTVPAL DIGITAL-TO-ANALOG TV CONVERTER
TV GUIDE ON SCREEN OR GUIDE PLUS SETUP
Page 25
Updating TV Guide On Screen and Guide Plus Setup
After connecting your DTVPal to your TV Guide On Screen or Guide Plusenabled
device, use these steps to complete the setup.
Note: The menu options on your Guide-enabled device may differ from the
ones described here.
1 Using the remote control for your Guide-enabled TV, DVD recorder, or
VCR, press GUIDE to open your Guide Listings screen.
2 On the Service Bar, select Setup, then Change System Settings.
3 If available, select No, repeat setup. Otherwise, follow the on-screen
prompts.
Entering Your Location
The Guide uses setup information to provide TV show listings and channel
lineups for your area.
1 Select USA as the country.
2 Use the remote control NUMBER PAD or the UP and DOWN ARROWS to
enter the Substitute ZIP Code for your area. See page 28 for the ZIP code
listing.
Set Up Your DTVPal
For your Guide to communicate with your DTVPal, the Guide must be set up as
though the DTVPal is a cable box, even though you do not have cable service.
Use these steps to finish setting up your DTVPal.
1 Select Cable with a Cable Box or Yes I have cable.
2 If asked, select the type of audio/video input you used to connect your
DTVPal to your Guide-enabled device, then follow the on-screen prompts.
3 If a connection diagram displays, verify the G-LINK cable is connected as
shown.
4 For brand of cable box, select Scientific Atlanta.
5 Follow the on-screen instructions and verify that your DTVPal changed
channels.
6 When asked if the device has tuned to Channel 9, select Yes.
7 On the confirmation screen, select Yes, continue/finish setup process. If
you are asked about setting up a VCR, select the appropriate answer for
your installation.
YOUR DTVPAL DIGITAL-TO-ANALOG TV CONVERTER
TV GUIDE ON SCREEN OR GUIDE PLUS SETUP
Page 26
Completing Setup
- After setup is complete, exit the Guide setup screen. To begin receiving
listings, be sure to turn off the Guide-enabled device when not in use.
- Within 24 hours, you will begin receiving TV show listings. It may take up
to six days to receive the full eight days of initial show listings.
- Show listings are updated several times per day. Be sure to leave your
DTVPal powered on to have the most updated listings information. It is
normal for your DTVPal to change channels while the Guide-enabled
device is powered off and is setting up or receiving new data.
Note: When you receive your new Guide listings, you will notice that your
channel numbers have changed. Refer to Tuning to Your New Channel
Numbers, below, or visit www.tvgos.com/support for more details.

dbird29, thanks for your reply. However, I am still not quite sure I understand how the signal gets from TVGOS to the guide in the DTVPal DVR. Is the signal embedded in the signal from each channel as it is broadcast or is there a separate sub channel that carries the info? I am quite sure the answer to this is so basic my question may seem stupid to veteran AV fans.

It is the G-link cable that moves it from the TV to the DTV Pal

I believe the DTVPal DVR has digital TVGOS, not the G-link thing the DTVPal CECB uses to keep analog TVGOS devices working.

FCC filing was for 6/27/09
So 7:30am it is for the end of full power analog TV in Portland.
7:06am would be a good time to tune in....
well what dbird was talking about was they showed the koin 25th aniv. show for there final 24 min. of analog.
it was very interesting to watch the program for the first time and look at some of the shows koin had during there first 25 years i will post more pics but here is the last screen shot before analog 6 went off the air.
update here are some picks sorry for the quality i am not exactly close to the tower .
http://*******/Y4Lhl

Nice sendoff. It was a weird sensation to have the "look back" be from 1978, which itself now feels like ancient history, technologically speaking. I felt a twinge of sadness when the test pattern was replaced with snow. But then, returning to digital with its oversaturated colors felt pretty comfortable, like going from B/W to color in The Wizard of Oz.

DS got a kick out of the comment about early news broadcasts being "mostly read news."

Blueduramax:

I have a pal dvr. The TVGOS works very well as of a few weeks ago. Follow the directions and you should not have any problems. Be sure to use your own zip.

Lew

Thanks for the encouragement lewlew. My recorder is due to arrive July 6th. I have pretty much decided the program information must be encoded and broadcast with each channels signal.

I just bought an LG Blu-ray player, BD390 which hooks to the internet for NETFLIX and other things. It is great. I am looking forward being completely free of cable etc. but still have all the goodies.

blueduramax:

There is psip info embedded in each station's signal, but, the tvgos data is sent from koin only and goes out 7 days. The only crummy thing about it is that it doesn't tell you new/rerun info.

If not then maybe we'll add KWVT - maybe by the new year readin between the lines....

Anybody know the June 30 deadline result if FCC got any competing apps so KWVT can move forward??

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------posted earlier in June:

from Mike at KVWT e-mailed to me today,..ref KWVT and Portland! So maybe by 2010 hopefully two more channels!

We have filed an application. The FCC is currently accepting competing applications until June 30. If no competing applications are filed, then it would likely be 60 to 90 days before a construction permit is granted. Then a couple months to negotiate the lease and order and install the equipment.

If there are competing applications, then it could be years, and would likely be determined at auction at some future date.

If we are successful in licensing, there should be no problem getting the signal in most of Camas, but if you are in a valley or behind a hill from the TV towers, it might require a good outdoor antenna. (Don't judge the coverage of low power stations by KORS. We have heard that KORS is aiming all of it's power South.)

We will be on physical channel 49 in Portland. Retro TV will be on virtual channel 17-2

For a similar coverage map, look at KPXG-LP digital coverage map. We are planning to combine into their antenna at the same power level...


Thanks for your interest!

Michael Mattson
KWVT Salem - DTV 17-1
KSLM Salem - DTV 17-2
Northwest Television, LLC
mike@kwvtsalem.com
www.kwvtsalem.com

I'm only getting a 40% signal on KOIN & KATU with my 811 HDTV Dish receiver. All the other PDX channels are at 69% or higher. I'm about 17.5 miles SW of the towers at 1300' (I'm close to Bald Peak Park) using a Channel Master 4 Bay HDTV UHF Antenna. This last weekend I moved the antenna from ground level to the second story with new quad shielded coax. My signal strength increased a little, but not enough for KOIN & KATU to come in. Anyone have any ideas how can improve my signal strength for KOIN & KATU? Except for a few fir tree tops I have line of sight to the towers.

I'm only getting a 40% signal on KOIN & KATU with my 811 HDTV Dish receiver.

I don't have much useful advice for you, so I'll just throw out a few things you may have already done. I fought a similar problem (multipath) and gave up and just paid Comcast their $10/mo tribute.

Have you tried a different receiver? Also, it's interesting that, according to the first post in this thread, KOIN and KATU share a transmitting antenna. Have you tried rotating your receiving antenna to see if your situation improves? Finally, from personal experience I know that just 6' of RG-59 cable can almost totally wipe out a signal. The same problem if you're using crappy splitters. Are you?

I lowered my 8-bay antenna down to the roof and half way between the peak and gutter. My signal on a Dish 622 is 72 on KATU and 75 on KOIN. It's much better than if it's raised up. Just a guess but I think the roof is acting like a wave guide and blocking some of the multipath.

I'm in a very similar situation living 100' below the peak of a hill at about 13 miles from the towers.

If you have help and don't mind being on the roof connect an extension to the antenna and "walk" the roof. Have your assistant call out the signal strength.

KOXI-DT, the Watch TV 16.3 sub-channel with the audio gain cranked up so high that it produced clipping and echo, left the air at 10:53 a.m. on 7/13/09. (I had a reference recording running at that time. This morning's KOXI-DT 3:00 a.m. reference recording also had no signal.) Upon checking the KORS Watch TV sub-channels, 16.1, 16.2 and 16.4 are also found to be without signal. Have the Watch TV channels "gone dark?"

Diga, the upstairs TV that still gets KORS/KOXI 16.x has no signal. Other TVs lost signal when they cut power to <6kW due to KWVT/KSLM complaint. But KLSM is moving, so if KORS gets the go-ahead to continue with their better antenna/location, maybe losing signal is a good thing -- tower work.

But I cannot keep up with all these LP changes. Here's another one I saw in the process of trying to figure out the KWVT/KORS conflict:


KPWC (24) -- KWVT reports that this station (appears to be a translator of KWVT) is moving to the Newberg area in 2009 -- no specific date given. Check out the contour map:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1292827.html

The REC map shows it extending farther -- click on 'view map' for Item #2:

http://www.recnet.com/cdbs/fmq.php?facid=&call=kpwc&ccode=1&latd=&lond=&city=&state=&country=US&zip=&party=&party_type=LICEN&jaws=0

Diga, the upstairs TV that still gets KORS/KOXI 16.x has no signal. Other TVs lost signal when they cut power to <6kW due to KWVT/KSLM complaint. But KLSM is moving, so if KORS gets the go-ahead to continue with their better antenna/location, maybe losing signal is a good thing -- tower work.

But I cannot keep up with all these LP changes. Here's another one I saw in the process of trying to figure out the KWVT/KORS conflict:


KPWC (24) -- KWVT reports that this station (appears to be a translator of KWVT) is moving to the Newberg area in 2009 -- no specific date given. Check out the contour map:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1292827.html

The REC map shows it extending farther -- click on 'view map' for Item #2:

http://www.recnet.com/cdbs/fmq.php?facid=&call=kpwc&ccode=1&latd=&lond=&city=&state=&country=US&zip=&party=&party_type=LICEN&jaws=0

KSLM digital 16 will not be the one moving to portland it will be channel 17 KWVT analog that might move to channel 49 in portland and become a digital signal
update
untill the post below i did not know about the freq. change for kslm

KSLM applied last month for Channel 27. [Rather than saying 'is moving' I should have said 'is trying to move.'] It isn't clear how Mattson intends to combine all these stations, but he does seem to be maneuvering for channels.

Description: REASON FOR DISPLACEMENT

KSLM-LD (FORMERLY K16HT-D) IS CURRENTLY AUTHORIZED TO OPERATE ON CHANNEL 16. KSLM-LD HAS AND CONTINUES TO RECEIVE SIGNIFICANT INTERFERENCE FROM COCHANNEL KORS-CA.

THE COMMISSION INDICATED IT WOULD ACCEPT A DISPLACEMENT APPLICATION TO RESOLVE THE INTERFERENCE COMPLAINTS IN THIS INSTANCE.

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101310342&formid=346&fac_num=129164

and to clarify, I mean moving their frequency. I'm guessing still in Salem -- but the application is for higher power, at 15kW.


adding contour:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1310342.html


and for comparison, the old contour. Big difference in pattern shape and targeted viewers.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1271930.html

Last 2-3 days there has been no KORS (16-1,2, 3, 4) signal, 16-4 has been off about a week+...IS there a problem w/ KORS? I know that 16-4 went dark a while before but, 16-1,2,3 were fine till early this week (though whenit wasworking - signal was still iffy (40's to peak of 51 strength here in west camas over by Lacamas Lake-w/ wind or rain causing pixeling over here in East Camas/Vancouver), they REALLY need a power boost to cover the area!

Appreciate the info to set/adjust my channel selector...Are they (KORS) are gone or just broke down

Also ref my post on near bottom of p252; did KWVT get an "ok" for the new channel to proceed here in PDX??

Also ref my post on near bottom of p252; did KWVT get an "ok" for the new channel to proceed here in PDX??

its still has the status of Application

TVFool is now providing us with "current + pending" graphs in addition to the current status.

Last 2-3 days there has been no KORS (16-1,2, 3, 4) signal, 16-4 has been off about a week+...IS there a problem w/ KORS? I know that 16-4 went dark a while before but, 16-1,2,3 were fine till early this week (though whenit wasworking - signal was still iffy (40's to peak of 51 strength here in west camas over by Lacamas Lake-w/ wind or rain causing pixeling over here in East Camas/Vancouver), they REALLY need a power boost to cover the area!

Appreciate the info to set/adjust my channel selector...Are they (KORS) are gone or just broke down

Also ref my post on near bottom of p252; did KWVT get an "ok" for the new channel to proceed here in PDX??

Dark since 10:53 a.m. 7/13/09.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16825945#post16825945

Ever since the digital transition NBC (1081), PBS (1101), and FOX (1121) are all showing 1 (red) bar on my media center, and when i try to watch them it says "no signal"

I get CBS, ABC, CW, KPDX, ION, and TBN just fine. I have a directional antenna pointed south (I live in vancover).

Do i need another type of antenna and combine the signals? apparently all the transmitters are basically right next to each other, so I don't get it. Different transmitter strengths, maybe?

thanks,

Ian

Ever since the digital transition NBC (1081), PBS (1101), and FOX (1121) are all showing 1 (red) bar on my media center, and when i try to watch them it says "no signal"

I get CBS, ABC, CW, KPDX, ION, and TBN just fine. I have a directional antenna pointed south (I live in vancover).

Do i need another type of antenna and combine the signals? apparently all the transmitters are basically right next to each other, so I don't get it. Different transmitter strengths, maybe?

thanks,

IanThe three stations you can no longer receive all moved from their temporary UHF channels back to their former analog VHF channels. All of the channels you receive remain on UHF channels. You need a combination VHF/UHF antenna in order to pick up all channels.

Ever since the digital transition NBC (1081), PBS (1101), and FOX (1121) are all showing 1 (red) bar on my media center, and when i try to watch them it says "no signal"

I get CBS, ABC, CW, KPDX, ION, and TBN just fine. I have a directional antenna pointed south (I live in vancover).

Do i need another type of antenna and combine the signals? apparently all the transmitters are basically right next to each other, so I don't get it. Different transmitter strengths, maybe?

thanks,

Ian

You need to rescan. Those 3 channels are now on 8, 10 and 12 and should come in fine.

"KORS (16-1,2, 3, 4) signal, 16-4 has been off about a week+...IS there a problem w/ KORS? "

So who knows are these channels on the air now or not? I just moved my antenna last night and got 16-1, 16-2 and 16-3 for the first time. This evening they are gone.

Update: Answering my own question. These channels are going on and off the air for what ever reason. Transmitter problems I'll guess.

I'll have to agree, over here just east of 192nd ave in Vancouver/Camas - Lacamas LAke area, KORS is "off" more than "on", and we haven't been rainy/windy so my "normal" mid 40's signal/50 peak has been non-existent often, hopefully they are IMPROVING service? Anybody try e-mailing watchtv to ask the question??

I'll have to agree, over here just east of 192nd ave in Vancouver/Camas - Lacamas LAke area, KORS is "off" more than "on", and we haven't been rainy/windy so my "normal" mid 40's signal/50 peak has been non-existent often, hopefully they are IMPROVING service? Anybody try e-mailing watchtv to ask the question??

KOXI 16.3 seems to be on the air this morning but the audio gain is still cranked up so high that there is clipping and echo. This situation has been present since mid-February.

The last time I called Watch TV I spoke with an actual human being concerning the audio problem. I suggested turning down the audio gain as KOXI is cranked up so much higher than other local channels, even Watch TV's other sub-channels. I suggested that if this is a signal source problem they might borrow the audio feed from WBQP in Pensacola Florida, a station that streams their America One programming in good quality on the internet. I mentioned that I had found the WBQP audio was perfectly synchronized with KOXI's video, except that WBQP has local commercials inserted into the America One programming. I was told, in no uncertain terms, "we know what we're doing, thanks for the call."

Apparently not.

As I have posted before, KORS-CA 16.x, transmitting in Portland on Ch16, was granted a power reduction from 15kW to 5.95kW. That is likely why most people are having trouble with reception.

The requested change was due to an interference complaint from KWVT/KSLM, virtual 17.x transmitting from Salem on Ch16 at 2kW. KWVT and her sisters are looking to get Ch 49, 24, and 27. The requests involved placing a transmitter just west of Forest Grove and another just north of Newberg, and I believe taking over the Portland spot KPDX had for Ch49. It's hard to keep it straight. They requested a speedy approval of Ch49, citing FCC saying it would be receptive to resolving the alleged interference with KORS-CA by having someone move.

In terms of programming, 17.1 KWVT is the same as 16.3 (KOXI subchannel on KORS-CA), and KSLM 17.2 is Retro network. KPWC is a new translator for KWVT. My guess: once KWVT and her sisters cover south metro with Ch24 and 27, and metro with Ch49, they will argue for a Comcast "must carry."

But I don't have a clue what's up with KORS-CA, supposedly building a taller tower and a stronger signal, but now asking for a reduced signal on a permanent basis. :confused:

My guess: once KWVT and her sisters cover south metro with Ch24 and 27, and metro with Ch49, they will argue for a Comcast "must carry."

Low-powered stations do not get must-carry.

- Trip

I have a question for the masses. All over the country stations that moved from 'temporary' UHF channels back to their formal analog VHF channels are rethinking that decision due to reception difficulties. Some stations have asked the FCC to go back to UHF, some are operating on both VHF and UHF while the figure out what to do, some have asked for VHF power increases up to doubling their power.

In Portland KGW, KOPB and KPTV moved back to their VHF channels. How much, if any, difficulty are folks having in receiving them since the change?

Low-powered stations do not get must-carry.

- Trip

There was an article a few years back about HSN's strategy for making Comcast carry them. It involved stringing LPs across the Salem-Portland area, with the argument that their viewership was sufficiently large. Eventually Comcast did carry HSN, plus a couple other low quality shopping networks. I think there were four on the "basic" channels. So that was not a manditory carry, as much as a persuasive one?

In Portland KGW, KOPB and KPTV moved back to their VHF channels. How much, if any, difficulty are folks having in receiving them since the change?
My brother-in-law lives in Vancouver. He was having problems with reception using a standard UHF loop/rabbit ears internal antenna. I replaced it with a silver sensor and the reception was great. When 8,10 and 12 moved back to VHF, he lost them using the silver sensor. I put in a VHF/UHF splitter combiner so he is now using the rabbit ears for 8, 10 and 12 and the silver sensor for all the UHF channels. reception is great again. Not bad for indoor antennas.

So that was not a manditory carry, as much as a persuasive one?

Pretty much.

There are rules to mandate carriage of certain low-powered stations in very specific circumstances, and KWVT will not meet those requirements. (It involves rural areas with no local full-service TV.)

- Trip

In Portland KGW, KOPB and KPTV moved back to their VHF channels. How much, if any, difficulty are folks having in receiving them since the change?
Since I'm five miles from the towers which I can see out my front window, my experience should carry little weight... but I'm having no reception problems at all. I just typed in the new frequencies on my Linux machine and the stations were back as if nothing had happened. In fact I'm still using the UHF Yagi!

Eventually Comcast did carry HSN, plus a couple other low quality shopping networks. I think there were four on the "basic" channels. So that was not a manditory carry, as much as a persuasive one?Cable systems get paid a commission on sales from the shopping channels that they carry. The persuasion is money.

Looks like I'll remove ch 16.2,.3 from my remote as the reduction in power means I hardly ever get the stations, even in the HOT calm/no wind daythis week the stations are non-exisistent oveerhere by Lacamas Lake...will look forward to retro TV network (ch # what???) and maybe an improved KORS signal (someday) that gets through Vancouver at least...maybe 2010 for both?

Looks like I'll remove ch 16.2,.3 from my remote as the reduction in power means I hardly ever get the stations, even in the HOT calm/no wind daythis week the stations are non-exisistent oveerhere by Lacamas Lake...will look forward to retro TV network (ch # what???) and maybe an improved KORS signal (someday) that gets through Vancouver at least...maybe 2010 for both?

Since KOXI-DT channel 16.3 is licensed to Camas then one would think that the FCC would insist that Watch TV provide a signal that may be received in and around Camas.

Cable systems get paid a commission on sales from the shopping channels that they carry. The persuasion is money.

That makes perfect sense. I'd think getting RTN free in the deal might be an incentive, but that doesn't hold a candle to commissions.

On VHS reception, I have Terk HDTVa in garage attic, 15 miles out, 1 edge. Before June 12, the Big 5 stations were solid. The signal meter didn't change at all, but now I get minor pixelation once or twice an evening, and last week with OPB, to the point of disrupting viewing. But it is not a VHS issue; KATU and KOIN also started pixelating after the transition, so I'm thinking it is summer multipath, heat bending the signal path when it bounces. It isn't any worse on VHF than UHF. My worst full power station is ION; it didn't move, but signal quality started fluctuating on the day of the transition. The tuner that used to have problems with ION is fine, and the one that used to hold the signal now gets audio blips every minute or so.

From what I've read, VHF is problematic in urban settings close to the towers. And in brick buildings, more common back East.

I have a question for the masses. All over the country stations that moved from 'temporary' UHF channels back to their formal analog VHF channels are rethinking that decision due to reception difficulties. Some stations have asked the FCC to go back to UHF, some are operating on both VHF and UHF while the figure out what to do, some have asked for VHF power increases up to doubling their power.

In Portland KGW, KOPB and KPTV moved back to their VHF channels. How much, if any, difficulty are folks having in receiving them since the change?
It took some "futzing" right after the change but since then everything has remained stable, though the signals are no where near as robust as they used to be.

On the VHF reception question from Lee:

At 8.5 miles out in a ditch 1 edge worsened by 20 foot trees (fir and other deciduous), an outdoor UHF yagi at 10 foot AGL gets me everything reliably

As for indoor antennas:
Using a whip antenna (those UHF remote antenna for Dish Network/4DTV) inside the house I can get KPXG, KPDX, and KATU most every time.
Before the switch, KRCW-DT KOIN-DT and KPDX-DT were the hardest to get, everything else was receivable.

KOIN comes in according to the weather.

With a set of VHF rods aimed West instead of NW I then get KGW, KOPB, KPTV
KPTV reception is very touchy. Any extra multipath such as a rocking Lazyboy, person walking, and breakup happens.

At 15 miles with near perfect LOS and the same UHF-only antenna at 5 foot AGL, the DigitalStream DTX-9950 meter reports 70-90 on all but KGW with shows up at a constant 59.

===============================================
Now as a comparison, I went for a vacation to Montana and went to tweak my Grandmother's set up. Missoula, MT digital stations we could pick up at 45 miles are on RF RF7 (8.1 CBS, 8.2 CW), RF13 (13.1 NBC) and RF23 (23.1 ABC, 23.2 Fox)
Kallispell stations were RF9 (9.1 NBC), RF27 (27.1 PBS-HD, 27.2 PBS/Montana PBS)

She lives right 150 foot from the highway so multipath is quite the problem.

The reception was incessantly breaking up. As an example, During Jeopardy the audio would drop out on either the question or the answer. EVERY TIME.

She had a brass Channelmaster VHF/UHF at 15 foot AGL. It had RG-59 attached. Swapped it out for some RG-6Q I had brought.
All but one station was acting appropriately now with dropouts every minute or so.
RF 7 still acted as though I had done nothing.

I pulled out a ferrite sleeve that I had brought.
Before anyone asks more details on what kind of ferrite, understand I have No Idea. I pulled it off some unused phoneline I had after a previous post here.

Putting the ferrite sleeve on the RG-6Q had no effect at any length.
Placing it on the power cord and moving it up and down the cord until RF7 came in "perfect"

All stations were now up to my standards except RF7 again.
Still experiencing dropouts, but now it was only when larger trucks rolled by.
Since RF 23 was the weakest, I couldn't attenuate hardly at all.

I started to set up a A-B switch attenuator system when I noticed that just one old -4dB two-way splitter was enough that RF7 was no longer dropping out save once in a 10 minute period, while RF23 still came in.

Grandma was quite happy. I wasn't pleased, but satisfied with what it had come from in 2 days.
RG-59 crimped to RG-6Q compression fittings
RCA DTA800B1 to Zenith DTT-900
And a 15-year old antenna still in use.

Now my great-uncle just across the fence just needed to turn his antenna in the right direction. But he has a metal roof between his antenna and the high way. *shrugs*

It was a good experience. :D WITHOUT AMPLIFIERS or even PRE-AMPS at 45 Miles!
EDIT: ADDED PICTURES
1. Channelmaster VHF/UHF antenna
2. Ferrite sleeve on DTT-900
3. Unterminated 4.0dB Splitter

On the VHF reception question from Lee:

At 8.5 miles out in a ditch 1 edge worsened by 20 foot trees (fir and other deciduous), an outdoor UHF yagi at 10 foot AGL gets me everything reliably

As for indoor antennas:
Using a whip antenna (those UHF remote antenna for Dish Network/4DTV) inside the house I can get KPXG, KPDX, and KATU most every time.
Before the switch, KRCW-DT KOIN-DT and KPDX-DT were the hardest to get, everything else was receivable.

KOIN comes in according to the weather.It sounds like you have something blocking the Sylvan transmitter site more than the Skyline/KPTV sites. As a result the signal on a small whip antenna is marginal.

With a set of VHF rods aimed West instead of NW I then get KGW, KOPB, KPTV
KPTV reception is very touchy. Any extra multipath such as a rocking Lazyboy, person walking, and breakup happens.

At 15 miles with near perfect LOS and the same UHF-only antenna at 5 foot AGL, the DigitalStream DTX-9950 meter reports 70-90 on all but KGW with shows up at a constant 59.At 15 miles with a UHF only antenna I am not surprised that KGW would be marginal since it is the furtherest away from the UHF band which, technically, starts at 300 MHz (with channel 14 at 473 MHz). My experience in town is much the same. With an indoor UHF only antenna I can get KOPB and KPTV fairly well, but not KGW.


Now as a comparison, I went for a vacation to Montana and went to tweak my Grandmother's set up. Missoula, MT digital stations we could pick up at 45 miles are on RF RF7 (8.1 CBS, 8.2 CW), RF13 (13.1 NBC) and RF23 (23.1 ABC, 23.2 Fox)
Kallispell stations were RF9 (9.1 NBC), RF27 (27.1 PBS-HD, 27.2 PBS/Montana PBS)

She lives right 150 foot from the highway so multipath is quite the problem.

The reception was incessantly breaking up. As an example, During Jeopardy the audio would drop out on either the question or the answer. EVERY TIME.

She had a brass Channelmaster VHF/UHF at 15 foot AGL. It had RG-59 attached. Swapped it out for some RG-6Q I had brought.
All but one station was acting appropriately now with dropouts every minute or so.
RF 7 still acted as though I had done nothing.

I pulled out a ferrite sleeve that I had brought.
Before anyone asks more details on what kind of ferrite, understand I have No Idea. I pulled it off some unused phoneline I had after a previous post here.

Putting the ferrite sleeve on the RG-6Q had no effect at any length.
Placing it on the power cord and moving it up and down the cord until RF7 came in "perfect"

All stations were now up to my standards except RF7 again.
Still experiencing dropouts, but now it was only when larger trucks rolled by.
Since RF 23 was the weakest, I couldn't attenuate hardly at all.

I started to set up a A-B switch attenuator system when I noticed that just one old -4dB two-way splitter was enough that RF7 was no longer dropping out save once in a 10 minute period, while RF23 still came in.

Grandma was quite happy. I wasn't pleased, but satisfied with what it had come from in 2 days.
RG-59 crimped to RG-6Q compression fittings
RCA DTA800B1 to Zenith DTT-900
And a 15-year old antenna still in use.

Now my great-uncle just across the fence just needed to turn his antenna in the right direction. But he has a metal roof between his antenna and the high way. *shrugs*

It was a good experience. :D WITHOUT AMPLIFIERS or even PRE-AMPS at 45 Miles!Which only goes to confirm that magic does play a role in television reception. ;)

OK, so I took my Terk HDTVa down to the ground floor, where it was last summer. There is more signal fluctuation now. It's a difficult room, wrong side of house, no window on the wall I need to point from, garage juts out 10' in front of antenna, and fireplace is on the antenna wall and just to the rear. Without the amplification, the signals fall way off.

Best location was on the mantle, most stations liked having the fireplace block the sideways signals. But that made KPDX and KPTV shakey, and KATU cut out completely. It improved the shakey signals to have the antenna aimed away from the tower, with the fireplace blocking what came in off the back end. But just sliding the antenna along the mantle, so the fireplace blocked signals from the back but not the side, also helped with fluctuating signals, and that is a safer adjustment with a tippy Terk. I'll probably perfect the sweet spot with more trial and error.

It sure is less hassle having the antenna in the attic, but if I want to get Newberg/Forest Grove/Salem stations, I'll need the antenna where I can rotate it.

I have a question for the masses.
In Portland KGW, KOPB and KPTV moved back to their VHF channels. How much, if any, difficulty are folks having in receiving them since the change?

I lost all three channels when they moved. Turning my indoor UHF/VHF antenna didn't help. Moving the antenna to a new location did work. However walking around the room caused loss of picture etc. Also needed to turn for some channels. I recently added 10-12 ft of wire and moved across the room and up near the ceiling. Works great all channels and no longer need to move around. I even get 16 1-3 when it's on the air and didn't before. It does seem odd that the move to VHF required me to move my antenna. I am really close to the towers in NW Portland (2-2 1/2 miles or so).

I have a question for the masses. All over the country stations that moved from 'temporary' UHF channels back to their formal analog VHF channels are rethinking that decision due to reception difficulties. Some stations have asked the FCC to go back to UHF, some are operating on both VHF and UHF while the figure out what to do, some have asked for VHF power increases up to doubling their power.

In Portland KGW, KOPB and KPTV moved back to their VHF channels. How much, if any, difficulty are folks having in receiving them since the change?

I lost KOPB and KPTV entirely. I'm in Battle Ground, WA. I have a 10 ft. mast attached to my chimney, and a very good Channel Master UHF only antenna mounted on it. The KGW signal is weak on the meter, put I have no problems viewing it.

I had to add a high VHF yagi combined with my 8-bay bow tie using a CM-7777 pre-amp.

The signal for 8,10, and 12 runs about 5 points lower on a Dish Network 622.

I know KGW is waiting for the FCC to grant a power increase but have know idea if that will be any time soon.

If I was looking at the right application, it was denied. The way they revise and resubmit, I could have missed a later app, though. -- never mind, it was back in another app dated 3 days later.

FCC filing was for 6/27/09
So 7:30am it is for the end of full power analog TV in Portland.
7:06am would be a good time to tune in....Here are the links to the YouTube replays of the KOIN analog shut off. Sorry it took so long to get it posted.

Part 1 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_siLAbVJ8U

Part 2 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3dNGKtPIeg

Part 3 of 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X72_hKW2ahA

Thanks to David Bird of KOIN and Robert Rogers of Broadcast Tower Services for hosting a farewell barbeque at the Sylvan site the Friday night before KOIN analog was shut off once and for all.

thank you lee wood for posting the video

Here are the links to the YouTube replays of the KOIN analog shut off.

Thanks for sharing. Amazing that there needed to be so much live programming produced in the early days.

I swear that the station ID announcer kept saying "this is KOIM TV Portland".

Thanks for sharing. Amazing that there needed to be so much live programming produced in the early days.

I swear that the station ID announcer kept saying "this is KOIM TV Portland".I should have added a thanks to the folks at CBS Radio, Portland who turned over to KOINer Scott Young a transcription (aka home made record, aka vinal) of the audio ID apparently used at the transmitter site during testing of the original analog transmitter. Scott was probably responable for the 'retro' station IDs.

Chs 8/10/12 power levels haven't been updated for the move to VHS.

It looks like Ch8 is at 25kW, Ch10 at 32.4kW, and Ch12 at 24.5kW, but the FCC TV query still lists them as "CP." :confused: If you could confirm the numbers and update Post#1, I'd appreciate it. :)

TIA

Does anyone know where to find info on the transition plans for the Gorge / Hood River / The Dalles?

I've been antenna-less for so long since we moved out here that I've pretty much become Internet only, but it'd be nice to have OPB again...

The FCC database I saw just listed "no plan" when I checked a while back, and wondered if there was any way to get more concrete info...

Thanks!

-Dan

Chs 8/10/12 power levels haven't been updated for the move to VHS.
Yes, they're still at Betamax levels. :)

Does anyone know where to find info on the transition plans for the Gorge / Hood River / The Dalles?

I've been antenna-less for so long since we moved out here that I've pretty much become Internet only, but it'd be nice to have OPB again...

The FCC database I saw just listed "no plan" when I checked a while back, and wondered if there was any way to get more concrete info...

Thanks!

-Dan

OPB plans to post the conversion dates once they are determined. Right now it's a bunch of TBA.

http://www.opb.org/digital/rural/#stations

Chs 8/10/12 power levels haven't been updated for the move to VHS.

It looks like Ch8 is at 25kW, Ch10 at 32.4kW, and Ch12 at 24.5kW, but the FCC TV query still lists them as "CP." :confused: If you could confirm the numbers and update Post#1, I'd appreciate it. :)

TIAActually, I've been so busy lately I didn't even think of it. The powers have been updated and notations added for requested power increased for KGW and KPDX. The FCC lists them as "Construction Permits" because until they actually made the move in channels they could not apply for an actual license. All of the stations making channel changes have filed the 302-DTV applications to license their current facilities.

Thanks, Lee, and also for the explanation. :)

is is a HD video i found on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBbX0m0AxOU&hd=1

Can anyone recommend an MATV installer in the Portland area? I live in a rowhouse complex in close-in SE. We're only 5 miles from the towers, but multipath is a problem when just using rabbit ears and bowtie. I'd like to find an installer who can give us a cost estimate for a master antenna system that would be distributed to up to 15 units. I've been unsuccessful searching for an installer on the web, but perhaps I'm just not using the right keywords.

thanks,
galen

I hope KPTV plans to strengthen their signal. The best I get is 50-55 with my roof mounted YA1713

OPB plans to post the conversion dates once they are determined. Right now it's a bunch of TBA.

http://www.opb.org/digital/rural/#stations

Thanks for the link! At least I have something to look at now. :-)

-Dan

You're welcome, plymptom. Keep us posted when the dates start to appear.

An update on KSLM/KWVT. The Ch 27 KSLM frequency move will happen first, then Ch 24 KPWC-LD will transmit north of Newberg. The Ch 27 app doesn't have FCC approval yet, so it's only a guess, possible timeframe Oct-Nov.

And of course there is also Ch 49 in the works, but I knew that one wasn't approved yet. I was thinking Ch 27 was approved, but the CP was a power increase to 10kW, still Ch 16. The change to Ch 27 at 15kW is pending.

Lee Wood asks

> In Portland KGW, KOPB and KPTV moved back to their VHF channels.
> How much, if any, difficulty are folks having in receiving them since
> the change?

Data for 2009-06-13 to 2009-08-23
Recordings of 40 minutes or longer. (short tests not included)
All KPTV recordings were 70 minutes.
Recordings using tuners that do not report FEC results not included.
"good" means 100% perfect reception after FEC
"bad" means 1 or more ATSC packets failed to be corrected by FEC

KGW-8 0 good 0 bad

KOPB-10 205 good 0 bad

KPTV-12

June 17 good 0 bad
July 22 good 6 bad
August 16 good 3 bad

total 55 good 9 bad --> only 86% good

Winegard YA-1713 VHF-HI antenna in attic, 4-5 miles SW of transmitters.
multiple HLSJ diplexors with low side terminated as high pass filters
Pico LPF-230 low pass filter
17 dB attenuator + 4way (7.4 dB) + 3way (? dB) splitters
ferrite just before each tuner to knock down common mode

Short tests of KGW came in fine, but not meaningful statistically.
All three come in with signal quality of 90%.
Without the attenuator the tuners were overloaded, resulting in reception
problems. The attenuator brings the signal strength down into what should
be the optimum range (95-99%).

8, 10, & 12 were beautiful in analog: no snow, no ghosts, no interference.

Good reception does not guarantee a good picture. KOPB sometimes has mpeg decode
errors, even with perfect reception. KPTV has mpeg decode errors every single time,
with or without perfect reception. KPTV used to be okay, but broke something over
a year ago.

I was wondering what the hold up was on Estrella TV. The bigger news is the intent to add 8.3 as weather and news at some point. Not sure what's meant by "as soon as it's technically possible" although they do seem to have problems with .2 as it is.


Spanish-language television network Estrella TV will premiere September 7 at 12am on KGW's 8.2 digital subchannel, according to broadcast operations manager Josy Ansley. This confirms information posted by Brad Taylor in our forums. Estrella airs news and original entertainment programming, but will not, according to industry publication Media Life, air the soap operas that are the primetime staples of Telemundo and Univision.

Estrella replaces the KGW Weather Channel that currently airs on 8.2. But don't despair, weather watchers, Ansley says it is their intention to add an additional subchannel on 8.3 featuring 24/7 weather, as well as news and information, "as soon as it's technically possible."

I was wondering what the hold up was on Estrella TV. The bigger news is the intent to add 8.3 as weather and news at some point. Not sure what's meant by "as soon as it's technically possible" although they do seem to have problems with .2 as it is. its there encoder they are looking at getting a better encoder

The bigger news is the intent to add 8.3 as weather and news at some point. Not sure what's meant by "as soon as it's technically possible" although they do seem to have problems with .2 as it is.

Yeah, you wouldn't want to lose that "lazy retard" demographic that can't figure out how to type or bookmark

http://www.kgw.com/weather/

its there encoder they are looking at getting a better encoderA number of months ago when it was announced by the Trailblazers that they had re-upped their local broadcast affiliation with KGW I sent an email to Blazers President Larry Miller (and copied KGW GM DJ Wilson) telling him it was a mistake and to be prepared to see even worse PQ on KGW games due to the upcoming addition of the spanish channel. DJ fired back saying they were going to drop the weather channel (after consulting his engineers). I told him that was at least somewhat encouraging as otherwise everything would surely look like crap. You know they will give the spanish channel more bandwidth than the weather channel currently gets. I mentioned that the new encoder they had been rumored to be considering would help but if they are actually planning on bringing the weather channel back at the same time then my hope for good game quality is lost.. :(



ron

A number of months ago when it was announced by the Trailblazers that they had re-upped their local broadcast affiliation with KGW I sent an email to Blazers President Larry Miller (and copied KGW GM DJ Wilson) telling him it was a mistake and to be prepared to see even worse PQ on KGW games due to the upcoming addition of the spanish channel. DJ fired back saying they were going to drop the weather channel (after consulting his engineers). I told him that was at least somewhat encouraging as otherwise everything would surely look like crap. You know they will give the spanish channel more bandwidth than the weather channel currently gets. I mentioned that the new encoder they had been rumored to be considering would help but if they are actually planning on bringing the weather channel back at the same time then my hope for good game quality is lost.. :(



ronFYI - KGW GM DJ Wilson is "she/her" not "he/him".

FYI - KGW GM DJ Wilson is "she/her" not "he/him".I guess that was a bit sexist of me... I don't think that I've known many woman that just go by initials like that so my brain jumped to the wrong conclusion. Sorry DJ if you happen to be monitoring :o. Thanks for the heads up Lee.


ron

Presumably 42.1-42.4 is the ION translator station (KPXG-LP), as it has a different signal strength than ION Ch 22. The CM7000 automatically added these 4 subchannels. I'm not sure how long it's been broadcasting, we've been relying on the Zat, which does better with the heavy multipath we've been getting in 90+ degree weather.

The CM also auto added 40.1, which has no identifier but is KOIN content. The signal has the same strength and bounce as 6.1, so I'm not assuming it's a different station. I manually scanned with the Zat, and it didn't pick up 40.1, just the 42.x ones.

I'm getting 17dB SNR +/- .5dB with error correction fixing up to 40 packets per second, mean of 20 per second for KPXG-LP (RF42) off my U75-R outdoor at 10 foot AGL

Funny enough that is the same as what I'm getting for KORS (RF16)
Seems if you can get 16.1-.4 you can get 42.1-.4

==========================================

Lee, I moved my VHF-rod antenna to the other side of the Olevia and farther away from Furnace closet. :o :rolleyes: :D

KPXG and KRCW are a bit fussy. Sometimes registering "No Signal", but switching to subchannel brings everything in normally. I can then switch to the desired subchannel.
Otherwise everything comes is almost flawlessly at 8.5 miles SE indoors

> Presumably 42.1-42.4 is the ION translator station (KPXG-LP),
> as it has a different signal strength than ION Ch 22.

42.x is actually on channel 42 (what a concept!)

Signal strength 88% (after 3-way and 4-way splitters)
Signal quality 90%

22 for comparison is coming in at:
Signal strength 100% (pegged)
Signal quality 100% (only the 2nd time I've seen quality=100)

I'm using Vista Media Center. I recently ditched my uhf only antenna and got a uhf/vhf bowtie style (has a 17db amp, i think). I set it up and did a rescan, and I got all the ones I was missing with just the uhf antenna (Fox, OPB, and one other I can't remember). This was all about a month ago. now i am noticing that I'm not getting them again! what gives! I must confess I'm not much of a tv watcher during the summer, so i can't say when the problem resurfaced. i tried moving the antenna around, but it didn't help. i tried doing a rescan, didn't help.

any ideas?

nevermind, i removed the 4way splitter (feeds into 3 different usb hdtv tuners), and ran the antenna directly to one tuner, and it works fine, so there's something wrong with either the 4way splitter, or the wiring somewhere.

The CM also auto added 40.1, which has no identifier but is KOIN content. The signal has the same strength and bounce as 6.1, so I'm not assuming it's a different station.

There must have been some glitch either in the PSIP data sent by KOIN or in your CM. According to the first post in this thread, the physical channel for KOIN is 40! Let us know when your CM shows you "a different station" on 40. :)

There must have been some glitch either in the PSIP data sent by KOIN or in your CM. According to the first post in this thread, the physical channel for KOIN is 40! Let us know when your CM shows you "a different station" on 40. :)

Yes, the CM doesn't clear its memory, same thing happened when ION tested for its move to digital. I took this one as a phantom labeled 40.1 for obvious reasons, and I am not expecting it to be "a different station."

I get the "repeater" ch 42'.x s fine, just a bit less stronger than the 22.x's.

KORS ch 16's STILL squirrelly, at best a 50 signal at peak, 40's typical over hare in camaas by Lacamas Lake just easst of 192nd Ave in V'couver...still pixels, etc., especcially w/ wind, heat, etc.,......

Questions: Thought KORS (16.x 's was/were going to improve their signal form last year converstaion?? What's up w/ that?? Haven't seen 16.4 since it first debuted (JTV), did 16.4 go dark?

IS there a KOIN .2 yet?? I see it on yahoo channel guide but none on TV?

when is Retro TV gonna be up for PDX area? What channel will it be on?

What is "better pic" quality: 1080i or 720p? Seems KGW is (usually) 1080i and KPTV, KATU is 720p (obviously each appears much better than 480i that .2's and KORS uses), can someone expalin in laymans terms?

What other channels are upcoming in PDX viewing area??

Thanx

> KORS ch 16's STILL squirrelly,

Did you ever get a better antenna? Or try the shielding technique
I pointed you at awhile back?

> IS there a KOIN .2 yet??

There used to be a KOIN .2 subchannel, but thankfully they got
rid of it. One good picture is better than two crappy pictures.

> What is "better pic" quality: 1080i or 720p?

1080i has more resolution in space, 720p has more resolution in time.
1080i is better for pictures with a lot of fine detail (in space).
In theory 720p would be better for shows with fast motion, but 1080i
did just fine with Keith Moon's drumsticks. Temporal problems are
more likely due to bad conversions (interlacing/deinterlacing, frame
rate, ...) than the format. The bad conversion can be on our end,
or at the TV station, or both. OPB gets it very wrong sometimes.

> obviously each appears much better than 480i

No one in Portland puts out a decent 480i bitstream. They are all
softened and compressed to death. It isn't the format's fault.

stuck w/ weingard 1080 antenna, it's ratings and testimonials prompted me to think I couldn't do much better in that "size" of unit, orient/reorient, it IS VERY particular to 5' changes even, and w/ KORS supposed DROP in power figured at best it'll never be good over here to get.....oh well, hoping .2 network and retrotv network get to us soon...

Thought KORS (16.x 's was/were going to improve their signal form last year converstaion?? What's up w/ that?? Haven't seen 16.4 since it first debuted (JTV), did 16.4 go dark?

Am I the only one finding sub-channel 16.3 audio has clipping and echo? These problems have been present on 16.3 since the middle of February and were not corrected during their recent "dark" period.

Better quality America One audio may be found on the internet stream of WBQP in Pensacola FL.

I have a question for the masses. All over the country stations that moved from 'temporary' UHF channels back to their formal analog VHF channels are rethinking that decision due to reception difficulties. Some stations have asked the FCC to go back to UHF, some are operating on both VHF and UHF while the figure out what to do, some have asked for VHF power increases up to doubling their power.

In Portland KGW, KOPB and KPTV moved back to their VHF channels. How much, if any, difficulty are folks having in receiving them since the change?

Since the transition, I've lost 8,10,12 in Vernonia. As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread I'm about 34 miles from the towers on Sylvan. I'm using a roof-mounted Radio Shack VU-120XR 120" UHF/VHF antenna along with a Radio Shack 15-2507 amplifier (since I've split it to four rooms). The Portland digital signal strength for all the major stations on UHF are in the 80s and 90s when tested on my Tivo Series 3. Prior to the transition, the 8, 10, and 12 VHF analog reception with this hardware was perfect (however we never watched the analog after having all TVs with ATSC tuners). Since moving to VHF, digital 8, 10, 12 are gone. I get a peak signal strength of 30 for each station and the tuner can't lock. I checked and rechecked my hardware and antenna and it's not that. Hopefully something will be done soon to resolve this...either bringing back 8,10,12 on UHF or boosting VHF power.

I’m in Salmon Creek WA just north of Vancouver. Prior to the switch, I was able to get all stations with a Silver Sensor indoor antenna (signal strength 90-100). After the switch, reception for 8, 10, and 12 is poor with the Silver Sensor (40-60 signal strength). Rabbit ears improve the signal slightly (50-70), however 8 tends to be on the low side. At this point, I have no plans to go with an outdoor antenna.

Judy

> reception for 8, 10, and 12 is poor with the Silver Sensor

The Silver Sensor is a low gain, UHF antenna.

> Rabbit ears improve the signal slightly

Rabbit ears are a low gain VHF antenna.

> I have no plans to go with an outdoor antenna.

If you have an attic you can put an "outdoor" antenna in the attic.
A proper high gain "outdoor" antenna will provide a stronger
signal, with less multipath and less interference. If you
are happy with the reception of UHF stations, the problem is
likely due to multipath or interference rather than signal strength.
Assuming you are not trying to receive any VHF-LO stations (RF channels 2-6),
you could try a HLSJ diplexor with the low port terminated as a
high pass filter to reduce interference from FM, etc.

VHF travels farther than UHF, and is less affected by obstacles such
as trees and walls. But it requires a larger antenna. Note that a
VHF-HI antenna (RF channels 7-13) such as the YA-1713 or Y10-7-13 is
much smaller than an antenna designed to receive channel 2.

Speaking of which, be sure to adjust the length of your rabbit ears
for the desired station. According to
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html
you want 31 inches for channel 8, 29 inches for channel 10,
27 inches for channel 12. That's total length, not per ear.
You want the connection in the center, so extend both ears
the same amount, don't just pull one ear out leaving the other
collapsed.

Titan says:

M*A*S*H
KPDX-DT - 49.1 - Tue, 9/08, 2:30 AM 30 min
1970, Comedy, Black Comedy, Classic, Drama
Two comical surgeons cause mayhem when they are assigned to the Korean War
Mobile Army Surgical Hospital as they attempt to soften the ever-present
harsh realities of daily life on the battlefield with humor and practical jokes.
Credits: Donald Sutherland, Elliott Gould, Tom Skerritt, Sally Kellerman, Robert Duvall


They must have really hacked it to death to get the movie version down to 30 minutes,
which would be about 22-23 minutes with commercials.

I am in NE Portland about 11 miles from the towers. There is a 100' high water tower about 450' from my house directly in the line of the signals.
Have a 43XG and Ya1713.
The UHF signals are in the 80's. Except 49.1 is about 65.
The VHF's are weak - (8-1 ~ 57), (10.1 ~ 62), (12.1 ~ 52).
When the weather is cloudy and raining the UHF's loose about 10% and the VHF's gain about 10%.

You're welcome, plymptom. Keep us posted when the dates start to appear.

An update on KSLM/KWVT. The Ch 27 KSLM frequency move will happen first, then Ch 24 KPWC-LD will transmit north of Newberg. The Ch 27 app doesn't have FCC approval yet, so it's only a guess, possible timeframe Oct-Nov.

And of course there is also Ch 49 in the works, but I knew that one wasn't approved yet. I was thinking Ch 27 was approved, but the CP was a power increase to 10kW, still Ch 16. The change to Ch 27 at 15kW is pending.
looks like K38KU-D/KWVT CH 38 (not on air) in the Albany/Corvallis area move from Vineyard Mountain to Peterson Butte and make it a digital signal has been issued a Construction Permit effective 08/10/2009 for a 2.83 kW ERP power
the construction permit exp. 10/04/2010
info about this can be found at http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=K38KU ,
fcc coverage map http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1324844.html ,

I have a Terrestrial Digital Lacrosse antenna (http://www.terrestrial-digital.com/lacrosse.html)(the amplified version). Its an out door antenna that I had in my attic. All the OTA channels came in great, sharp, and perfect. At least until the transition. Ever since I have lost channel 8.1-.2 and 6.1 and 10.1-.2 are sketchy at times. Thinking that moving the antenna outside would solve the problem, I took the time to move it. Didn't help a bit.

According to antenna web almost all my channels are broadcast from the same direction (88°-91°) and 5.5 miles or less away (4.7 being the closest). I have read through the forum and not sure what my problem is. Am I having multi-path problems, or something else? What can I do to trouble shoot?

Thanks for the help!

It sounds like KWVT and sister stations are getting closer for the other moves. Here's what is posted on KWVT.

We are planning to increase power in 2009. We are also planning new digital transmitters in Portland, Newberg, Albany, Bend and other locations.

UPDATE: In 2009, our new station KPWC will begin broadcasting from the Chehalem Ridge near Newberg. KPWC will reach Forest Grove and Hillsboro as well as parts of the Southeast Portland area. KPWC will also reach many in the mid valley that have difficulty receiving KWVT / KSLM. We also expect to receive a construction permit soon for the Skyline tower in Portland.

They must be confident about getting the ok for CH49 Portland soon and the KSLM move as well, since KSLM was supposed to happen before the KPWC move. KWVT has a sidebar showing KPWC "coming soon" on 17.3. I take that to mean KPWC is not just a translator for KWVT, since it will add programming to KWVT.

It is a lot harder to adjust my indoor antenna post June 12. The 8/10/12 group is odd, in that after I've moved the antenna to adjust for one of the UHFs, I often get a poor signal on 10, while 8 and 12 are 100%. Or I lose 8 or 12, when 10 is ok. KATU wants to be directly aimed, and the rest of the UHFs do better with an offset. If I'm offset, I get everything but KATU. To keep KATU from breaking up, I re-aim, which makes KOIN and KRCW degrade, and requires another adjustment for 8/10/12. There's no single sweet spot I can rely on for recording.

The part that's odd is that KATU and KOIN both require different antenna positions than before, even though they didn't move June 12. All that adjustment guarantees I have more breakups when I change channels. I can resolve most of it by putting the antenna back in the attic, but I didn't have this problem last summer with the antenna where it is now.

Incidentally, my rabbit ears do better being considerably longer than what the guide predicts. I am guessing it's multipath. Signal goes from 70% quality to 100% with ~10" extra on each side. Whatever works. Actually, that would be someone standing there touching it. :rolleyes:

After thre months of trying to trying to love the digital transition, I still find frustration with local channels. I get dropouts and pixelization on 6, 8, 10, and sometimes 12. I live near 20th and Hawthorne so distance should not be an issue. I gave up on my rooftop UHF/VHF antenna and now use rabbit ears, but they need adjustment everytime the weather changes.

I am guessing that it is time to "re-plumb" my house with RG6 cable and mount a new antenna on the roof - not a happy use of a weekend or a paycheck (it means a bunch of drywall work to fish the cable).

I was in Hood River this weekend, and watched sme TV using the Underwood repeater. I discovered a new feature! The same reception issues I have in Portland have now infected the analog transmissions from the transmitter. It appears that the receiving (digital) side of the repeater is also unable to get reliable reception from Portland.

I love having the beautiful HD snow-free images that DTV provides, however, it appears that the technology was not yet ready for full deployment. The transition is not painless, and suffers reliablitiy problems that were never present in the analog world. The transition was drivin by the economic value of the bandwidth, and I believe, resulted in a premature forced transition.

End of rant!

Thunderbeast

I love having the beautiful HD snow-free images that DTV provides, however, it appears that the technology was not yet ready for full deployment.
That's what we were saying about color television in the early 70's. I spent hours with my dad up on the roof adjusting the antenna while I yelled things like "better, worse, much worse, nothing but snow, a little better...". Our first color set (one of those big furniture models) had awful color drift. You'd have to adjust the tint every hour.

You're probably having multipath problems. I had those until I adjusted my Yagi so I wouldn't get reflections from passing vehicles. Unfortunately where I am a major street lines up directly with the towers. This is a problem for us who are closer to the antennas since the reflections are much stronger.

I have a Terrestrial Digital Lacrosse antenna (http://www.terrestrial-digital.com/lacrosse.html)(the amplified version). Its an out door antenna that I had in my attic. All the OTA channels came in great, sharp, and perfect. At least until the transition. Ever since I have lost channel 8.1-.2 and 6.1 and 10.1-.2 are sketchy at times. Thinking that moving the antenna outside would solve the problem, I took the time to move it. Didn't help a bit.

According to antenna web almost all my channels are broadcast from the same direction (88°-91°) and 5.5 miles or less away (4.7 being the closest). I have read through the forum and not sure what my problem is. Am I having multi-path problems, or something else? What can I do to trouble shoot?

Thanks for the help! 1. You are WAY TOO CLOSE to be using an amplifier.
2. The amplifier is probably being over driven and will burn out soon if it hasn't already.
3. You're antenna is UHF-only and 8,10,12 are on VHF-Hi

My father is not too far from you and he uses this for an antenna:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062017
It's on a arm held out the window 14 inches from the siding.
He receives all the channels listed on the first post of this thread
He even gets 16.1-16.4 most of the time.

If you insist on getting a proper outdoor antenna, I recommend this one:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088
You shouldn't need anything more than that being so close to the transmitters.

After fighting multipath, I'm a fan of Corner-reflector Yagi antennas

=================================================

As for the loss of channels 8, 10, and 12 reported by so many:
I believe the problem is ridiculously strong multipath.
With the UHF loss, the echoes are degrading well enough that we can get the +3dB difference between the Signal and the Echo
But as I experienced in Analog on VHF-Hi, the echoes can be almost equal to the original.

Nit to pick below:
Adding to the problem is many folks resorting to the crutch of using an amplifier or pre-amp, justifying it by saying "Hey it worked for analog". Heck even folks that left their amplifiers and pre-amps on their antenna after switching.

The result being the reflections get amplified. Your TV tuner now is getting and decoding gibberish. All while getting "No Picture" or sound.

I'm preaching to the choir here. However I needed to get that out of my system.
==================================================
Next one on my plate is the talk of signal strength.

Signal strength doesn't do digital any good if the quality of the signal is rubbish.
I know the Zenith DTT-900 and 901 uses a pure quality metric on the signal meter
The RCA DTA-800B1 is a signal strength meter

Please those of you when you report your signal if you have the separated Signal Strength and Signal Quality, Please report the Quality as well.

Having a 100% on signal strength means nothing when you have only 14% quality.

Anyone seeing signal on channels 26 or 41?

- Trip

Anyone seeing signal on channels 26 or 41?

- Trip

Nothing from analog 26 and I'm right next to them.
Not receiving anything from 41

Alright, I asked about 41 because KORK-LD filed for a license yesterday.

I asked about 26 because while investigating 41 at SiliconDust, I noticed it was reporting a digital signal on 26.

- Trip

I'd read recently that there were stations planning to transmit two signals on the same frequency, the second for fill-in. It sounds like that may be the case with KORK? The new "APP" for KORK is in a different location, St. Helens area and covering St. Helens and Scapoose and not much else, at 0.28kW. The "CP" KORK is in the expected Portland location, planned for 15kW. [I see nothing]

I did find 26.1 (God TV) on the upstairs TV. At 6kW, it breaks up a lot. I don't get it on the ground floor. [Wilsonville, 1 edge, indoor antennas]

I'm told that KORK tested the dual facilities a few months ago. I do not know if this license app covers just the 15 kW facility or the DTS as well.

- Trip

I've been getting the 26-1 "fine" over here by Lacamas Lake in Camas (didn't know anyone cared), about a 70-73 signal is typical...the digital signal "cleans up" the grain and static from the analog 26 had, even w/ my antenna oriented towards PDX antennas, not the actual direction of 26! The actual Kork channel (35) analog is terrible though, and KORS, chs 16.1-3 (Mt tv tuner doesn't even register a 16-4 subchannel, did it go dark -JTV?) are squirrelly, often pixeling in wind or afternoon heat, and their audio is awful. Signal of 40's at best. Once in a while I'll get a 50-51 Peak but as often it'll be a 41 strength?? Go figure... I guess they (KORS Engineers) never did repair/move the KORS xmitter as they said WAS going to happen (after digital transition) per my conversation w/ station last spring ("New x mitter antenna, will move "up" the pole several feet"). Seems the KOXI ch 20 analog signal also is gone too as my tv sees nothing there either...My TV "shows" a 41-1 and has for a while but, no signal is on it...thought from past that was gonnna be one of the "new" stations (?). I cannot get/see the 17's from Salem area either though the tuner shows they are there (all now as expected since I'm north of Columbia river, at about 250~ ft elevation just on south side of the Lake off Lake Rd, just east of Vancouver border a couple miles...)

I'm just glad ALL the majors for me (after reading the problems others have)are "fine", the ch 42. digital "repeaters" aren't needed The Ch 22's are nice, even better/stronger than the new 42.'s-and I'm at a 100 "peak"/ steady 90's signal on ch 32.1-2 for example. 8, 10, 12 are fine w/ only 10's being in the 70-s strength, rest are ALL higher on the VHF side!

Would hope Retro TV comes through well/soon and KORS could up their power. Wouldn't mind KOIN bringing a sister/sub-channel either, they seem to be the only "lonely one" of the Metro not having a secondary channel...

I'm told that KORK tested the dual facilities a few months ago. I do not know if this license app covers just the 15 kW facility or the DTS as well.

- Trip

OK, looking at the actual document filed, the App. shows the 15kW stuff, but the listing in the query result (what I was looking at) shows the "App." as the fill-in station. I get the impression that the FCC database is a dinosaur. Between the app and the query, there is the big picture. But I don't see anything on my tv.... yet.

"Assuming you are not trying to receive any VHF-LO stations (RF channels 2-6), you could try a HLSJ diplexor with the low port terminated as a
high pass filter to reduce interference from FM, etc."


I have been studying FM interference to DTV reception. Testing roughly a dozen DTV receivers of various sorts indicates that second order harmonics and intermodulation products can cause interference to high-band VHF DTV reception if the FM signal(s) are large enough with respect to the DTV signal. While the effect is possible, the numbers indicate that the problem should be relativly rare. It appears that high-gain antenna amplifiers may also cause the problem if used where the signal from the antenna is large.

So, my question to this forum is, do you know of cases where FM signals have caused interference to DTV reception?

If so, what were the particulars? For example, was it to a DTV receiver alone or was there a broadband amplifier between the antenna and the set? What type of antenna was used? What was the (roughly) location?

Thanks.

Hah! 26-1 is coming in with a SNR of 26.1 dB tonight!

Windows Media Center 2005 doesn't want to show/play 26-1, but the SNR meter changes between 22-3 (29dB SNR), 26-1 (26.1dB SNR) and 32-1 (29 dB SNR)

The Olevia picked it up and played it, at least until I changed the channel.
Then I only got "No Signal" on 26-1 for the five minutes I played with the TV.

The RCA converter box played 26.1 fine off of the U-75R.
The POS didn't want to pick anything up with an indoor antenna tonight.
Too bad it won't let me watch 16-2 and 16-3. Piece of junk.

I see KWVT-LD got its CP for channel 49. Granted last week.

I have a question for the masses. All over the country stations that moved from 'temporary' UHF channels back to their formal analog VHF channels are rethinking that decision due to reception difficulties. Some stations have asked the FCC to go back to UHF, some are operating on both VHF and UHF while the figure out what to do, some have asked for VHF power increases up to doubling their power.

In Portland KGW, KOPB and KPTV moved back to their VHF channels. How much, if any, difficulty are folks having in receiving them since the change? A rather late response, but I am very disappointed by the VHF signals. I live in Vancouver, ZIP 98663, near the I-5/SR500 intersection (10 miles from the towers). Its a tricky location, in a mild dip, with the SR500 traffic passing overhead, so I have multipath issues. Using a sensitive directional antenna works OK for UHF, but then I need a splitter for the VHF. And there is no single antenna location that works for all 3 VHF stations. The amount of tweaking I have to do for VHF is positively painful. I have almost given up watching those channels.

I have family a little further up the hill and to the North. They use a RadioShack Rabbit Ears & Loop quite successfully, but they have better line-of-sight to the towers.

Gary

A rather late response, but I am very disappointed by the VHF signals.

You're not alone. This problem is happening in many areas (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hKKr1wyE9-C5yQQNb4qz0lg8kHWgD9APUCBO4) of the country. Fortunately no stations around here have switched back to channels 2 thru 6, which are even worse in terms of required antenna size.

You could always move to Wilmington, NC. No VHF stations there, good reception on UHF. :)

I gave up on this battle years ago, switched to $10/mo cable. That's the original purpose of "Community Antenna TV", not to deliver dozens of home shopping channels.

What's going on with Channel 3 analog? ABC is there, my best analog station, and it sure can't be those fractions of kW the FCC has listed for Ch 3.

ETA: I am embarrassed by this question. The Zat loses its analog pass through settings and it had been so long since I'd looked at analog, I forgot about that.

Hey all, a reader on my blog wondered why full-power VHF channels in Portland have even numbers, when other places have odd numbers or both evens and odds. For example, in New York and LA, there's a CBS-6 and an ABC-7. Is there any reasoning behind these channel assignments?

If you'd like, you can reply directly at this url: 3.ly/gqU (Just copy and paste that in your browser. It's a real URL from a URL shortening service. Unfortunately, as a new user, I'm not allowed to post dot-coms or anything else resembling a URL.)

Well, you can post URLs, I did in one of my first posts, I think all it took was putting it in brackets. Either that or wait two more posts.

Well, I have to post at least once more. I had the numbers wrong for NY and LA. CBS is on 2 in both cities. But there are adjacent channels: NBC is 4 in both markets while 5 is Fox in NY and The CW in LA.

I lost all the VHF channels here in Salem at the switchover, but I only have a CM bow-tie UHF antenna. I bought it years ago when I didn't know some channels would be switching back to VHF. I had to pay extra for my local channels from Dish Network, which means I don't get KOPB in HD and I don't get any sub-channels from 8-10-12.

On the plus side, I can now record a local show on my Dish DVR while I watch another local channel, using both the OTA and satellite tuners in my Dish receiver. Before I only had the one OTA tuner for my locals so I couldn't do that.

Hey all, a reader on my blog wondered why full-power VHF channels in Portland have even numbers, when other places have odd numbers or both evens and odds. For example, in New York and LA, there's a CBS-6 and an ABC-7. Is there any reasoning behind these channel assignments?

It boils down to interference protection. Back in the early 1950's the FCC allocated and assigned, or reserved, channels for cities and localities across America. The plan was to protect a station from interference on an adjacent channel number, or a station miles away on the same channel. The result is a hop-scotch effect

Some cities have both a channel 4 and 5 because their RF is seperated, the same where some cities might have both a channel 6 and a channel 7. This repeats where a city might have a channel 13 and also a channel 14. It's just an illusion that those channel pairings are actually adjacent.

Well, I have to post at least once more. I had the numbers wrong for NY and LA. CBS is on 2 in both cities. But there are adjacent channels: NBC is 4 in both markets while 5 is Fox in NY and The CW in LA.

You already got the short answer from rdvegas. But if you're really bored you can read about North American broadcast television frequencies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_broadcast_television_frequencies) on Wikipedia. Among other things you can learn that back in 1940 the frequency assigments were adjacent for channels 4 and 5.

Thanks for your help!

I recently got a notice on my Comcast box that KGW was discontinuing their weather channel.

Hopefully dropping the Weather channel means more bits will be assigned to their main HD channel.

KGW has always been bit-starved, which is a real problem during any scenes with motion.

For example, during the Olympics diving competition a tumbling diver caused such a blizzard of pixelization that it was impossible to see anything about the diver entering the water (which is a big factor on the diving score).

Hopefully dropping the Weather channel means more bits will be assigned to their main HD channel.
Don't count on it. Stations usually keep the bit rate the same and throw the new extra bits into the null packet stream. When our CW affiliate dropped the music channel, the HD channel didn't get one more bit allocated to it.

One thing that may improve is that KGW's stat muxer will stop starving the HD channel after there has been a static image on it. You can see this during football games after a graphic has been on the screen for a while. Afterwards the PQ will be at about DVD quality for a few seconds as the stat muxer reluctantly returns bandwidth to the HD stream. This also happens repeatedly during their local news, especially during the weather graphics.

I recently got a notice on my Comcast box that KGW was discontinuing their weather channel.

Hopefully dropping the Weather channel means more bits will be assigned to their main HD channel.

KGW has always been bit-starved, which is a real problem during any scenes with motion.

For example, during the Olympics diving competition a tumbling diver caused such a blizzard of pixelization that it was impossible to see anything about the diver entering the water (which is a big factor on the diving score).
I'm pretty sure they replaced it with another one of those second-tier TV networks you've never heard of before.

For example, during the Olympics diving competition a tumbling diver caused such a blizzard of pixelization that it was impossible to see anything about the diver entering the water (which is a big factor on the diving score).
I still have these hilarious screen caps from that. Even the NBC bug was crumbling:

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/diving1.jpg

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/diving3.jpg

The resolution was regularly dropping below SD resolution which made watching the Olympics in HD kind of pointless.

Don't look for bandwidth improvement on 8.1. Weather 8.2 was replaced by Estrella TV, Spanish language programming. And "as soon as it's technically possible," KGW plans to add 8.3 for weather/info/news.

I visited our retreat in the Hood River Valley on Saturday. Last month, the signal from the analog repeater was awful - dropouts and pixelization from the digital feed from Portland.

This weekend, the analog signal was better than it ever has been! I had clear and sharp reception on all of the low-power uhf channels - something I never had before. It looks like the transmitter may have been upgraded. Could this be in preparation for DTV conversion?

I have been hunting for information about who operates this repeater. The last lead I had was to somebody at KATU. The email I sent was bounced with a generic "doesn't work here anymore" message.

I hope that someone has a plan that will notify viewers about DTV conversion. I understand that each station will convert at different times requiring analog pass-through on converters.

I just wish someone would post plans and schedules.

Thunderbeast

I recently got a notice on my Comcast box that KGW was discontinuing their weather channel.

Hopefully dropping the Weather channel means more bits will be assigned to their main HD channel.

KGW has always been bit-starved, which is a real problem during any scenes with motion.

For example, during the Olympics diving competition a tumbling diver caused such a blizzard of pixelization that it was impossible to see anything about the diver entering the water (which is a big factor on the diving score).

Don't look for bandwidth improvement on 8.1. Weather 8.2 was replaced by Estrella TV, Spanish language programming. And "as soon as it's technically possible," KGW plans to add 8.3 for weather/info/news.

I still have these hilarious screen caps from that. Even the NBC bug was crumbling:

The resolution was regularly dropping below SD resolution which made watching the Olympics in HD kind of pointless. SHAME on them! That is absolutely, atrociously, shocking!

I would MUCH rather have one pristine HD channel, than 4 or 5 crappy ones. This overcompression and cramming business is making a laughing-stock out of "Hi-Def". I find that I am less and less inclined to turn on the TV anymore. Blu-ray is quickly becoming my only source of entertainment.

Gary

I still have these hilarious screen caps from that. Even the NBC bug was crumbling:

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/diving1.jpg

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/diving3.jpg

The resolution was regularly dropping below SD resolution which made watching the Olympics in HD kind of pointless.

The saddest thing was those shots were usually 15 Mbps
KGW caps the 1080i channel at 15Mbps.
And almost EVERY dive shot looked like that on KGW

Mind you the NBC website feed wasn't much better.

SHAME on them! That is absolutely, atrociously, shocking!

I would MUCH rather have one pristine HD channel, than 4 or 5 crappy ones. This overcompression and cramming business is making a laughing-stock out of "Hi-Def". I find that I am less and less inclined to turn on the TV anymore. Blu-ray is quickly becoming my only source of entertainment.

Gary


You and me might want only one Great looking HD channel, but the average TV viewer would rather have 3-4 OK looking channels.

You and me might want only one Great looking HD channel, but the average TV viewer would rather have 3-4 OK looking channels.

The days of only one pristine HD feed per channel , using the full 19 megabits is mostly over. A number of stations are now offering two HD feeds and a SD feed by using variable bitrates without great compromise.

Here's a cut/paste from Wikipedia:

ATSC digital television supports multiple digital subchannels if the 19.39 megabits-per-second (Mbit/s) bitstream is divided. Therefore, station managers could run any of the following scenarios using one 6MHz ATSC channel (note that the actual bitrate moves up and down, due to usage of variable bit rate encoding):

HDTV channels Subchannels
1 x 1080i or 720p HDTV (19 Mbit/s) No additional subchannels, unless HD is transmitted at 15Mbit/s or less.
1 x 1080i or 720p HDTV (15 Mbit/s) + 1 480p or 480i SD subchannel (~3.8 Mbit/s)
1 x 1080i or 720p HDTV (11 Mbit/s) + 1 720p HDTV (8 Mbit/s) subchannel
1 x 1080i or 720p HDTV (11 Mbit/s) + 2 480p or 480i SD subchannels (~3.8 Mbit/s each)
1 x 720p HDTV channel (8 Mbit/s) + 3 480p or 480i SD subchannels (~3.8 Mbit/s each)
2 x 720p HDTV channels (9.6 Mbit/s each) No SD subchannels
2 x 720p HDTV channels (7.8 Mbit/s each) + 1 480p or 480i SD subchannel (~3.8 Mbit/s)
No HDTV channels + 2 480p or 480i SD subchannels (~6 Mbit/s each)
No HDTV channels + 3 480p or 480i SD subchannels (~6 Mbit/s each)
No HDTV channels + 4 480p or 480i SD subchannels (~4.2 Mbit/s each)
No HDTV channels + 5 480p or 480i SD subchannels (~3.8 Mbit/s each)
No HDTV channels + 6 480p or 480i SD subchannels (~3.1 Mbit/s each)
No HDTV channels + 7 480p or 480i SD subchannels (~2.7 Mbit/s each)
No HDTV channels + 120 mono radio subchannels (~0.2 Mbit/s each)

You and me might want only one Great looking HD channel, but the average TV viewer would rather have 3-4 OK looking channels. Well then, SHAME on the average TV viewer as well!!!

Gary

I'd be happy with one good one and a couple ok ones, but although my 8.1 did not pixelate like that, KGW wasn't managing one ok one with 8.2.

Trip has a list of stations managing at least two HDs. Lots of dual 720p, even one with three 720p, and a dual 1080i, and a 1080i with two 720p. Mostly variable bit rate.


Trip's link to dual HD substations:
http://www.rabbitears.info/oddsandends.php?request=dualhd

even one with three 720p, and a dual 1080i, and a 1080i with two 720p.

There are none with three HD feeds on them (thankfully). Note the channel numbers. If multiple networks are on a single subchannel (think Fox 8p-10p then MyNet 11p-01a, for example) then they're listed separately, even though they're actually on the same sub.

- Trip

Well, that's good news at least. I was focused on the multiple HD aspect, and didn't notice that some subchannels took up multiple lines.

Locally, before ThisTV, I had read 2.2 would be 720p, but that didn't happen. When ION went HD with their primary channel, they said IONLife would be 720p in late 2009.

ETA: maybe you can find a way to bracket the repeating subchannels, or space between nonduplicates.

When is KATU going to get the ability to show syndicated programs in HD?

Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune were two of the first shows to be delivered to local stations in HD but Portland viewers have never seen them in full-definition widescreen, and KGW was showing Regis and Kelly in HD before KATU took over and relegated it back to the murky world of SD.

Even KRCW shows Legend of the Seeker in HD.

KATU is bragging about now showing its local news in HD; I was hoping that the equipment upgrade would finally include some way of time-shifting HD syndicated programs, but apparently not.

It all takes time -- and lots of money. Just because the networks went color one day or stereo the next didn't mean all stations nationwide suddenly passed the programs in color or stereo. The same applies to HD and digital. Yes, there's 19+ Mb of signal available, but to get two HD channels, an SD program stream, plus surround audio, captioning, guide information, ratings data, and now mobile/handheld multiple streams all sharing that fixed bitrate very sophisticated rate shaping technologies must be employed. Then there's the licensing for all those program streams and retransmission contracts to be negotiated with satellite and cable providers. Digital storage space for high-definition is about three times that of standard definition and it costs more. Your 5" CD is the same size as your 5" blu-ray but do they or their recorders/players cost the same? Every station operates on a budget and need advertiser money to purchase the equipment -- unless its your local PBS (have you given money to them lately?). OTA stations are fighting cable and satellite providers for your eyeballs. They are attempting to invest FIRST in what is going to bring the most "bang for the buck" to your home television. Passing Network HD was step one, then HD News (most local advertisers), then syndication. It all takes time.....and money.

I lost all the VHF channels here in Salem at the switchover, but I only have a CM bow-tie UHF antenna. I bought it years ago when I didn't know some channels would be switching back to VHF. I had to pay extra for my local channels from Dish Network, which means I don't get KOPB in HD and I don't get any sub-channels from 8-10-12.

On the plus side, I can now record a local show on my Dish DVR while I watch another local channel, using both the OTA and satellite tuners in my Dish receiver. Before I only had the one OTA tuner for my locals so I couldn't do that.

I noticed channel 8-10-12 were gone just a couple months ago and couldn't figure out why. Now I just learned they have been moved back to VHF.

When I had my OTA antenna installed in 2003, all the information I could find was digital OTA broadcast will be UHF ONLY. That was why I picked up a UHF only antenna. How could they just change their mind and fool people around at switch? I am pretty upset about this even though I also have local feed coming in from DirecTV.

When I had my OTA antenna installed in 2003, all the information I could find was digital OTA broadcast will be UHF ONLY. That was why I picked up a UHF only antenna. How could they just change their mind and fool people around at switch? I am pretty upset about this even though I also have local feed coming in from DirecTV.

Digital TV was never all-UHF. There were many areas where no UHF channels were available and thus all the digitals were on UHF during the transition, but even asking stations many years ago, they knew they wanted to move back after the transition.

KPXG was on channel 4 for years.

- Trip

When is KATU going to get the ability to show syndicated programs in HD?It all takes time -- and lots of money. Just because the networks went color one day or stereo the next didn't mean all stations nationwide suddenly passed the programs in color or stereo. The same applies to HD and digital. ... Passing Network HD was step one, then HD News (most local advertisers), then syndication. It all takes time.....and money.You might have just said, "It's Fisher Communications," the company that put the "tight" in "tightwad".

I know it takes time & money... it took time & money for people to buy new digital widescreen TVs, too, didn't it? My question was, when is Fisher going to join the other major Portland stations that have already found the time and money to broadcast syndicated programs in HD? But I guess we never get any inside info on this board about anything concerning the enigmatic Kay-Too.

You might have just said, "It's Fisher Communications," the company that put the "tight" in "tightwad".
You may be lucky to have the extra cash for a new TV but these aren't exactly bountiful times in the broadcasting industry.

My question was, when is Fisher going to join the other major Portland stations that have already found the time and money to broadcast syndicated programs in HD?
Who are these other stations? KRCW is the only one I've seen airing syndicated shows in HD. Has KGW upgraded for Oprah and Ellen?

Stations have saved tens of thousands of dollars on equipment expenses by just waiting a few years. It's hard to justify replacing equipment that's still making the station money.

Who are these other stations? KRCW is the only one I've seen airing syndicated shows in HD. Has KGW upgraded for Oprah and Ellen?


I believe the only reason 32 is doing HD syndie is because their signal comes out of seattle, so it more cost effective to have one server for both stations (or however many come out of the Seattle compound).

Depending on how much HD programming you bring in, a decently sized HD video playback server can be in the mid 100,000 dollar range, and more.

I live in Bethany area (Laidlaw/Skycrest). I have really hard time receiving the two channels. I am using an amplified rabit ear from Radio Shack. I tried turning off the amplification, but it actually made it worse. I tried adjusting the gain, but nothing seems to work consistently.

Here are the two channels I cant seem to get consistently.

Ch. 2 (ABC, KATU) and subs (2.1, 2.2) -- This one seems better when its cloudy and rainy outside, but still most of the time I cant get enough signal strength.
Ch. 32 (NW 32) -- This one seems better when its sunny outside.

Any ideas on how I can rectify the problem? Any suggestions on a new antenna? Currently my antenna is in the garage about 6 feet high. I also have a 1-4 split amplifier to distribute the signal around the house. Just to eliminate the sources of problem, I have tried without the amplfier and also tried directly hooking up the antenna to my TV and HTPC tuner card. Nothing seems to get me Ch 2.

Please help, its frustrating and with LOST final season coming up, I want to be ready. :)

Thanks in advance.

a new antenna vice the rabbit ears would be a start,I think others in the area where you are at will chime in, I imagine there may also be a non-digital repeater in the PDX area on another channel perhaps (try Tv fool, antenna web, etc.,).... it's interesting that over here East of Portland (Camas), I can direct my antenna to a 100 lb signal of 32.1-32.2, however, I tune it slightly more south and I get a better shot at KORS 16.1-.2-.3...

BTW: KORS which barely was watchable all summer now peaks at about a 57 vice a 49~ lb signal and tyically is always 5 lbs+ "higher" thus not pixeling much at all....Did KORS do some xmitter work?? Rain nor wind seems to have any effect and the leaves are on the trees still, perhaps HEAT bends the signal and is MOST degrading to a fringe digital signal?? thoughts??

When is our now tv station due in town? (retro tv I believe)....thanx

I live in Bethany area (Laidlaw/Skycrest). I have really hard time receiving the two channels. I am using an amplified rabit ear from Radio Shack. I tried turning off the amplification, but it actually made it worse. I tried adjusting the gain, but nothing seems to work consistently.

Here are the two channels I cant seem to get consistently.

Ch. 2 (ABC, KATU) and subs (2.1, 2.2) -- This one seems better when its cloudy and rainy outside, but still most of the time I cant get enough signal strength.
Ch. 32 (NW 32) -- This one seems better when its sunny outside.

Any ideas on how I can rectify the problem? Any suggestions on a new antenna? Currently my antenna is in the garage about 6 feet high. I also have a 1-4 split amplifier to distribute the signal around the house. Just to eliminate the sources of problem, I have tried without the amplfier and also tried directly hooking up the antenna to my TV and HTPC tuner card. Nothing seems to get me Ch 2.

Please help, its frustrating and with LOST final season coming up, I want to be ready. :)

Thanks in advance.
Bethany, as in right next to PCC? That's 4-5 miles out. If that AMP is not built into the antenna, take it out.

Can you see the 3 towers to the west clearly?

Even my amplified Phillips works rubbish with the amplifier off. All of the UHF stations work with the AMP turned on, but not the VHF.
Yet a simple pair of rabbit ears or a bowtie works a heck of alot better than the amplified Phillips.

What fixed my signal problems for me at 8.5 miles out was going and getting a Radio Shack U75-R and mounting it outside. $35 for the antenna and 5 for the Not Included 300Ohm to 75 Ohm adapter. Take a chance. You can always dish out more for some thing else.
At 8.5 miles I reliably pick up all of them including the VHF ones of KGW, KOPB and KPTV

I would like to split my antenna signal, so i can distribute it to several different hdtv receivers/tuners in the house. I have two splitters that are each ranked differently. Can anyone help me understand if either one of them would work to get all the available HDTV channels in Port/Van?

One says "5-900 mhz" on it, the other says "40-2150 mhz" on it. the latter has "d.c. pass" stamped on it betwee the "input" and "out 3" and also between "input" and "out4"

would either of these work for what I'm trying to do?

Thanks,

Ian

I would like to split my antenna signal, so i can distribute it to several different hdtv receivers/tuners in the house. ....

One says "5-900 mhz" on it, the other says "40-2150 mhz" on it. ...

would either of these work for what I'm trying to do?

Ian

I am no expert, but let me try to answer this.

Without better spec's I would guess that the one marked 5-900mhz is better suited for broadcast tv. The 40-2150mhz one was probably made for satellite tv and MAY not be as efficient at some of the lower broadcast frequencies. The DC pass or block marking are to help configure connections for powering a remote pre-amplifier or satellite receiver which is probably not important in your setup.

That being said, a simple splitter may not be what you really need or want in this setup. You said you want to connect to several HDTV's, and each split is going to reduce your total signal strength. If you have long runs of coax on top of this or some weak signals to start with you may end up losing stations.

If you already have some wire to connect these sets you can try it out and see what your reception is like. If you lose stations after adding the splitter you may be able to restore them by replacing the splitter by a powered distribution amplifier or perhaps by upgrading to a better antenna.

If you do decide to get a distribution amplifier, be sure to get a quality unit and also do not skimp on the quality of the wire you use. Some people report poor results with the distribution amplifiers available from local hardware or electronics stores and better quality units are available online from suppliers that specialize on television reception products. Search some of the other threads and see what others suggest for a distribution amplifier if you get to that point, but I am getting quite a bit beyond the original question at this point.

ends up I had one of these sitting in a box somewhere!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B001222256/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=172282&s=electronics

I set it up and get more chanels than before, but I still am having trouble with Fox. Is that normal?

I was workign my PC a lot today whilst watching football (I do Media Center), so that may have been part of the problem, i'm not sure.

Thanks,

Ian

delete... found my answer

ends up I had one of these sitting in a box somewhere!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B001222256/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=172282&s=electronics

I set it up and get more chanels than before, but I still am having trouble with Fox. Is that normal?

It's not normal.

In a previous post you mentioned you are now using a VHF/UHF antenna with an amplifier (aka a pre-amp). But Vancouver is fairly close to the towers, so you probably don't need a pre-amp, unless there is a big obstruction between you and the towers. Is there?

Remove both the pre-amp and the Electroline distribution amp. See if you can get good Fox reception on 1 TV. Try to temporarily get your TV as close to the antenna as possible (to eliminate bad coax as a source of your problems).

If you now get Fox, add back just the Electroline and use that to distribute your signal.

ends up I had one of these sitting in a box somewhere!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B001222256/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=172282&s=electronics

I set it up and get more chanels than before, but I still am having trouble with Fox. Is that normal?

I was workign my PC a lot today whilst watching football (I do Media Center), so that may have been part of the problem, i'm not sure.

Thanks,

Ian

What type of antenna are you using, and how is it pointed? Is it a combined VHF/UHF, or just one? Large directional type or something else? Have you done a search on antennaweb or Tvfool to see how far you are from the towers and if they are mostly in one direction or all over the place? I agree that a preamp may be causing you more harm than good, but right now there are still a few too many unknowns.

Anyone else having problems recieving KGW? I began to have intermittent problems after the "transition" back to VHF. I bought a new antenna a couple of months ago and the problem went away. About 5 days ago the signal strength at my tuner dropped to 5% - 35% and the best I am getting is unwatchable blocking now.

I was unable to record most of the Colts game last night...it wasn't until the game was almost over that the signal was worth watching at all. It's really frustrating!

55% sig strength seems really marginal, best to try orienting the antenna for a higher % and perhaps checking/replacing cable from antenna to the tv w/ as few interuptions/splits possible..I've noticed that CP station KORS (16.) has been marginally better last few mos, other than the heat bending the signal in warm temps which causes drops, they have been more stable abd 5% better overall since Sept/OCt...I wonder if they repaired their xmitter and relocated higher as they were supposed to do last spring?? Anybody know??

Hello Portlander's.

I stay in Hillsboro and planning to cut out my Comcast cable, I just watch CNN/SciHD/Discovery/MSNBC and figured out that I have been paying excess monthly fee. I am thinking about moving to get OTA HD channels and build myself a HTPC to stream videos from Hulu/Netflix. I think I wont be able to get CNN/Discover/NGC without cable or SatTV but I am fine not having them for the amount of money I can save per month. I have panny x50 720p HDTV and would like to get some advice on how to setup my TV to get good OTA TV. Any help is appreciated.

-Bhasi

> Anyone else having problems recieving KGW? I began to have
> intermittent problems after the "transition" back to VHF.
> I bought a new antenna a couple of months ago and the problem
> went away. About 5 days ago the signal strength at my tuner
> dropped to 5% - 35% and the best I am getting is unwatchable
> blocking now.

I just ran a 10 minute test on KGW and the tuner reports that all packets
are perfect (after FEC).

If your tuner only reports one number, it is probably signal quality,
not signal strength.

I have to attenuate my VHF signal significantly (currently 17 dB
according to my notes, in addition to 3-way and 4-way splitters)
to keep the tuners from overloading. Try an attenuator or a splitter
and see if it helps. (Or try taking the amp out of the circuit if
you're using one.)

Signals will be a bit different with the leaves coming down, and the rain.
Although this shouldn't affect VHS nearly as much as UHF.

If you've got a decent speedinternet connection, just an HDMI cable from your computer to your tv is THE easy way to go...provided: your computer and tv (they should if newer) have those connections...this makes it easy to watch your computer on tv or ALSO listen to radio through your tv...my tv is connected to 14 speakers in/out of the house so that gives me "radio" in every room, in addition to the tvsound, ...so HJDMI from your pc is a great way to stream radio from the internet through your tv sound system...Video Only chain sells HDMI cables MUCH cheaper than anyone else I've found...:)

Anyone else having problems recieving KGW? I began to have intermittent problems after the "transition" back to VHF. I bought a new antenna a couple of months ago and the problem went away. About 5 days ago the signal strength at my tuner dropped to 5% - 35% and the best I am getting is unwatchable blocking now.

My grandparents in Oregon City have been complaining about the very same problems since mid-October. They didn't tell me until a few days ago. :rolleyes:
I placed an cheap 24db distribution amplifier in-line since it worked last year with a bad balun, but this year it caused more harm than good on some days.
(Ch. 3 interference/overloading?)

The quality meter on the converter boxes would bounce on Ch. 8 51%-61% (25% is the cutoff)
No visible rhyme or reason why KGW is fluctuating so badly. All of the VHF channels were so stable from June through September.
After sunset the channel would have no problems, but about 4pm almost everyday, KGW gets tiling to where it's unwatchable.

I'm going to try an attenuator first, but I may need to hunt down a UHF-VHF signal joiner for cheap if the UHF suffers too much.
The usual online sources want to butcher me for shipping. :mad:

Are Blazer games actually recorded in 480p and then unsampled to 1080i to be broadcast on KGW? Coupled with the bandwidth that is devoted to 8.1 it seems to lead to a very poor picture.