Portland, OR - HDTV [Text View] - Page 34

earletp

04-22-11, 11:31 AM

For those interested in just what DA 11-260 has to say....

Mr. Gregory J. Herman DA 11-260
President
WATCHTV, Inc.
1628 N.W. Everett Street
Portland, Oregon 97209-2109
In re: Request for Modification of Experimental License
File No. BPEX-20100406ADD
Facility ID 185620

Dear Mr. Herman:

This is to inform you that the above-captioned request for modification is denied. Although your submission is styled as a request for an experimental authorization, the request is a very unusual one. The proposal contemplates that analog TV service from four stations would cease and their programming would be transmitted from a different digital TV station on a multicast basis. The request contains no analysis of the potential impact on consumers; it merely assumes that virtually all viewers who previously received the analog signals will be able to receive the multicast digital signal. The four analog stations would then be converted to a different technology previously implemented in China, intended to support what is described as broadband service. That technology is inconsistent with the existing ATSC standard for transmission of digital television in the United States.

This Commission supports innovation and technological experimentation. However, we are also mindful to ensure that experiments not undermine our rules. An experimental license is not to be used to introduce a new service that does not comply with our rules, as this request appears to contemplate. Although the proposal itself is silent about the number of participants in the experiment, it is our understanding from the applicant’s counsel that the applicant hopes that thousands will participate. In addition, you, as the applicant’s CEO, have been quoted as saying that, “If the technology works as well as anticipated, deployment can start within a year, with widespread penetration, including rural areas, faster than any other technology.”

The request thus appears to be more akin to a developmental license, which may in appropriate circumstances be used to introduce a new service that does not comply with our existing rules; however, such a request should be accompanied by a petition for rulemaking seeking changes consistent with the operation under investigation. Where a new service would employ technology inconsistent with the existing ATSC standard, any rulemaking most likely would be accompanied by industry standards development.

1) Groticelli, Watch TV asks FCC for experimental license to test spectrum efficient wireless transmission technology, Broadcast Engineering, Jan. 14, 2011.
2) In the Matter of Promoting Expanded Opportunities for Radio Experimentation and Market Trials under Part 5 of the Commission’s Rules and Streamlining Other Related Rules 2006 Biennial Review of Telecommunications Regulations, Notice of Proposed Rulemaking, 25 FCC Rcd 16544 at para. 5 (2010). Cf. 47 C.F.R. § 74.103(d) (“experimental operation which looks toward the development of radio transmitting apparatus or the rendition of any type of regular service using [frequencies not allocated for the service] will not be authorized prior to a determination by the FCC that the development of such an apparatus or the rendition of such a service would serve the public interest”).

In short, the information submitted with the request is not persuasive that the proposal is truly for a technical experiment. It does not describe except in the most general of terms what tests, if any, will be performed. The Commission generally looks favorably on experiments designed to examine technical issues. We cannot, however, authorize an experiment that appears designed to establish a new service that is not currently permitted under Commission rules.

Accordingly, the above-captioned request for modification is denied, without prejudice to submission of a new request for an experimental license for a properly defined technical experiment.

Sincerely,

William T. Lake
Chief, Media Bureau

cc: Peter Tannenwald, Esq.
Jeffrey S. Fisher

earletp

04-22-11, 11:39 AM

So if I understand that correctly, WatchTV was less about supplying television programming and more about using their analog stations to become a new player in the broadband services market.

TalkingRat

04-25-11, 06:01 PM

zyland

04-26-11, 01:14 AM

Does watch TV have analog stations in the Portland DMA? I don't understand the analog channels part - maybe KKEI/KOXI/KOXO were testing the digital side of things and the analog stations are somewhere else, like in Texas? I started wondering what was going on when those three stations transmitted identical content from the same location, with different signal strengths.

So if Watch TV agrees to give up a couple redundant stations, do they get a piece of the profit?

WatchTV, Inc. is the licensee of at least four analog channels with "LICENSED AND SILENT" status in the PDX DMA.

KOXI-CA 20 (Facility Id: 71074) Camas, WA
KKEI-CA 38 (Facility Id: 71078) Portland, OR
KORK-CA 35 (Facility Id: 71079) Portland, OR
KOXO-CA 51 (Facility Id: 71080) Vancouver, WA

All of these licenses expire February 1, 2015

kenreau

04-28-11, 07:10 PM

Greetings fellow PDX/SW WA area viewers. I just stumbled upon this great thread and see it is very relevant to my interest.

I am very interested in unplugging from my Dish Network sat. service and just going with an OTA route if reasonable/feasible for local channels. I typically minimize the sat. service, or turn it off, as the kids roll in to schools out/ summer vacation season to keep them from parking & vegging out as tv zombies for 3 months... Plus, with internet access, netflix streaming, lack of programming of interest, my pay tv viewing interest has really diminished in light of what I get for $90/month from Dish.

I live in NW Portland, Cedar Mill/Bethany direction and have direct line of sight to the antenna towers, maybe 4 miles distance as the crow flies.

I currently use (rent) the Dish HD DVR receiver which also acts as my TV tuner. A potential problem is my TV is a commercial Panasonic HD (720p) monitor without built in tuner. It is ~5 years old and has HDMI inputs.

Out of a monopoly of necessity, I have to use Comcast in my 'hood for my (variable semi-fast) internet service as part of my telephone land line package.

I recently added an apple mac mini to my HT equipment and can surf the web on my TV with a quick input switch on my remote. My mac mini, ps3 and dish dvr all run HDMI into my HT preamp processor and on out by HDMI to the Panny monitor.

Any recommendations here on a good path to follow for the best all around viewing experience, sans pay tv? My minimum goal is to be able to access local network HD channels and occasionally some major channels like FOX, CNN, MSNBC [I do intend to keep the internet service].

Should I go with something like the HDHomeRun? Get an OTA digital tv tuner? Given I've already got internet running to the TV monitor, I like the idea of building on to the mac mini platform if there is a good app or platform there. I'm just in the information gathering/learning curve phase of how best to get all it offers along with the local programming.

Thanks
Kenreau

Lost Dog

04-29-11, 12:43 PM

kenreau

04-29-11, 03:32 PM

If you are using Comcast internet then you have basic cable included in your package. You'll get the locals in HD and not much else. The other option is going OTA and from what it sounds like you would have no issues with reception.

One thing to note is if you cancel your Comcast basic TV they will up the rates of your Internet service to make up the difference in cost. Before I switched to Verizon FIOS (now frontier) I canceled Comcast TV just out of spite for them and kept the internet.

The HDHomerun is a great device. I use one with my Mythtv HTPC.

Thanks for the feedback. I guess my dilema boils down to getting a TV tuner since that would go away with the Dish sat. receiver. That HDHomerun device sounds like the best of all worlds with OTA and Internet tuning.

I don't use the Comcast TV service now, so I may look at that again to see how much the penalty is, especially with dropping Dish. Comcast tv picture quality is typically so poor (ghosting, over compressed, ?) that I gave up on them 10 years ago and jumped to Dish.

Thx
Ken

zyland

04-29-11, 08:24 PM

Thanks for the feedback. I guess my dilema boils down to getting a TV tuner since that would go away with the Dish sat. receiver. That HDHomerun device sounds like the best of all worlds with OTA and Internet tuning.

I don't use the Comcast TV service now, so I may look at that again to see how much the penalty is, especially with dropping Dish. Comcast tv picture quality is typically so poor (ghosting, over compressed, ?) that I gave up on them 10 years ago and jumped to Dish.

Thx
Ken
Regarding Comcast limited basic TV. You get a discount on the internet IF you bundle with TV or phone, so it's usually cost just slightly more to include limited basic with your internet. If you don't include limited basic Comcast has been known to put a filter on your cable to block out analog channels. In our area, this will block out OPB HD as well.

Regarding Comcast HD picture quality, local broadcast HD is reduced in bandwidth but not as much as some of the cable HD channels.

That being said, I applaud the choice to switch to OTA local broadcast HD. More bandwidth and free seems like a big win.

Since you don't have an integrated tuner, you will need to do something about this.

I don't have one myself but wanted to buy a HDHomerun unit. The big downside I saw was that you still needed some kind of set top box in addition to display the video recorded on the HDHomerun. You can hook up an Xbox 360 and then use it as a Windows Media Center extender or go the HTPC route with something like MythTV.

A good thing about HDHomerun is that it works with OTA ATSC and digital cable ATSC as long as it's unencrypted (which local HD is). So if you're OTA solution doesn't bring in the channels you want, you can still use Comcast limited basic.

I ended up buying a ChannelMaster CM7000PAL largely based on how much I liked the ChannelMaster CM7000 digital to analog converter tuner. I really like the tuner on the CM7000PAL but the interface is really clunky. As a DVR, it has a lot to be desired. If you go this route, it only works with OTA digital ATSC.

Another option that you might want to go for is you don't want the expense of a DVR setup is to get an external ATSC tuner. If you go down this road, just make sure that what you are buying puts out an HD signal. There seem to be some digital to analog converters that don't make it clear that they output an analog signal.

Good Luck

TalkingRat

05-01-11, 12:01 PM

WatchTV, Inc. is the licensee of at least four analog channels with "LICENSED AND SILENT" status in the PDX DMA.

KOXI-CA 20 (Facility Id: 71074) Camas, WA
KKEI-CA 38 (Facility Id: 71078) Portland, OR
KORK-CA 35 (Facility Id: 71079) Portland, OR
KOXO-CA 51 (Facility Id: 71080) Vancouver, WA

All of these licenses expire February 1, 2015

I would have thought the FCC would take back the analog when KOXI, KKEI, and KOXO went digital. So all channels, analog and digital, went silent? But prepared to broadcast HSN on every channel if the FCC makes them. That's a lot of 'empty boxcars.'

jbpdx

05-19-11, 07:58 PM

I've completely lost KSLM/RetroTV in Beaverton. It got weak a few days ago, then disappeared...

earletp

05-20-11, 12:19 PM

I've completely lost KSLM/RetroTV in Beaverton. It got weak a few days ago, then disappeared...
Are you just commenting?

If not, yes RetroTV is still broadcasting.

You may need to reposition your antenna this time of year, as trees fill out and mother nature adds foliage and flowers to the world around us, it can interfere with your signal path.

TalkingRat

05-22-11, 06:51 PM

I got the KWVT/KSLM station RF49 today for the first time on my downstairs TV. There's nothing posted on FB yet. I was trying out a different antenna, and noticed the wire that goes into my Terk amplifier was long. Clipping it improved other channels by 5-8 points, and up popped KWVT, a weak 19% on my Mag 2160A, but viewable. So either it was the wire trim, or they got the transmitter repaired between scans.

JeffinWesternWA

05-23-11, 04:49 PM

My signal still the same 15_+ miles away. typical low-mid 50's, weather VERY dependent. Last email from KSLM indicated it would be close to summer before xmitter fixed and power back to 100%. BAd weather causes dropouts for me over here in East "couve/far west Camas.

mbyers24

06-16-11, 05:58 PM

ridgefamus

06-16-11, 09:56 PM

Hmmm, I just tuned in to 6.1 and "extra" looked fabulous. I use the built-in tuner in my Sony XBR9 and a Silver Sensor antenna buried behind my TV cabinet. Granted, I have a 6 mile line-of-sight unobstructed to the towers. But 6.1 itself is not generating the artifacts you report (right now).

rdvegas

06-17-11, 08:29 AM

Konrad2

06-18-11, 10:13 AM

> And most channels do look great. KOIN 6 on the other hand
> looks like garbage. It looks absolutely bandwidth starved.
> Pixellation and macroblocking galore. They aren't even
> broadcasting any sub-channels as far as I can tell.

Huh? It is the other way around. Most Portland stations
have multiple subchannels resulting in horrible compression
artifacts. KOIN has its faults, like those horrible
overlays, but it switched from 2 subchannels to just 1
awhile ago, and thus usually has decent picture quality.
KPTV and KPDX also have just 1 subchannel and usually
have decent picture quality.

For compression artifacts, check out KATU's "this" or
KOPB's "Plus".

Is there a particular show on KOIN that has problems?
Or does it happen all the time? If it happens all
the time, perhaps you are mistaking a reception problem
for compression artifacts?

Speaking of KOIN, Titan says they will be off the air
awhile. Anyone know what's going on?

TalkingRat

06-18-11, 04:16 PM

After canceling DirecTV several months ago and going OTA I was excited to be receiving the best, uncompressed, picture quality possible.

And most channels do look great. KOIN 6 on the other hand looks like garbage. It looks absolutely bandwidth starved. Pixellation and macroblocking galore. They aren't even broadcasting any sub-channels as far as I can tell.

What's the deal?

Do you get multipath? I do, and found that a couple channels do dramatically better (double signal strength) by mis-aiming the antenna. UHF does better with offset, VHF (8/10/12) likes a direct aim. But adding 5' elevation helps me pull in all the stations without having to vary antenna direction.

I get temporary glitches a few times a year - things like wind, wet leaves, and heat can disrupt reception. Until I moved my antenna to the attic, I got interference from news/traffic copters. OTA has not been set and forget, but the quality is better than what Comcast delivered. If your antenna is indoors, you might need to move your antenna around to find the best position, which for me in rooms away from the tower was the center of the room. When a station develops reception issues, I give it a few days because it usually gets better on its own.

blunty

06-29-11, 09:15 AM

10-1 & 10-2 OPB appear to have the incorrect audio streams this morning and yesterday.

billmcf

06-29-11, 05:17 PM

10-1 & 10-2 OPB appear to have the incorrect audio streams this morning and yesterday.

I noticed this as well as a different problem with OPB: My Dish DTVPal DVR has started receiving 10-1 when it's tuned to 10-3, and it's receiving 10-2 when it's tuned to 10-4. It can't record at all when tuned to 10-1 or 10-2. This behavior started Monday night. My other OTA tuners (Channel Master set-top boxes) continue to receive all sub-channels correctly.

Has anyone else seen this? Thanks.

TalkingRat

06-30-11, 12:33 AM

On the OPB stations, they were completely off the air at one point, then I saw 10.3 airing 10.1's programming -- and at that point 10.1 and 10.2 were showing PSIP but no signal. Tonight things seemed to be back to normal there. I used to have a TR40, and it was pretty good at keeping up with channel changes and reamapping. But if you don't have the stations back, then maybe it's time to rescan. I didn't have to do anything for my TV, though.

billmcf

07-01-11, 11:49 AM

JeffinWesternWA

07-01-11, 12:40 PM

Any word on KWVT/RTV's repaired x mitter in PDX? Supposed to have been done in mid June~, no update on their corporate or Facebook site. I note my signal really hasn't changed so Imagine they are still @ 50% power since spring.

??

Konrad2

07-07-11, 12:35 AM

Looks like OPB is dropping a subchannel.

"Starting today, you'll find favorite programs, expanded lineups and
more viewing options on our new TV channels: OPB and OPB PLUS. OPB's
high-definition and standard-definition channels have been combined
into one single HD channel with your favorite children's programs,
news, documentaries, dramas and more. OPB PLUS brings you more drama,
arts, public affairs, British comedies and musical performances."

Konrad2

07-07-11, 12:43 AM

Has anyone noticed reception problems starting on the 24th
and really kicking in on the 26th? RetroTV ch49 is the worst,
but KRCW, KOPB, KATU, and KPTV are having more problems
than usual.

blunty

07-07-11, 11:06 AM

TalkingRat

07-07-11, 01:56 PM

OBP's change took me by surprise. Not that I'll miss 10.2, but running repeats on 10.2 freed up 10.1 for more programming. That's some marketing feat to tout "more viewing options" without explaining what makes two subchannels an improvement over three.

I wonder what they did with the extra bandwidth. When I looked this morning, "Plus" looked as fuzzy as ever. Well, at least that gives me hope that 10.1 may be improving. :p

JeffinWesternWA

07-07-11, 02:34 PM

Has anyone noticed reception problems starting on the 24th
and really kicking in on the 26th? RetroTV ch49 is the worst,
but KRCW, KOPB, KATU, and KPTV are having more problems
than usual.

I've had better than usual signal strength lately, example: "today" I've got hgh 70's peaks on 27-2 RTV, highest ever recorded, I wonder if the xmitter has been fixed and power back to 100%?? Nothing on their Facebook/Home page though ...so I think it's the calm, warm overcast conditions. I've had excellent reception of all local channels this spring. KRCW is strongest, often 100% peak and steady, 17-1/27-2 the lowest, in rain/wind high 40's, some breakup/pixelation to high 70's (go figure, quite a range) in the calm, warm low overcast...I'm about 16 miles, not quite but, a block from literal "line of sight" to antenna farm w/ an attic mounted (single story) Weingard 1080 that has been "oriented" to best reception of 27-2, the weakest channel.

Think the OPB consolidation was good, from 6pm to 6am OPB2 was just a simulcast of 10-1 anyway.

Any word if KOIN will ever add a subchannel? Or any other new channels ever coming this way? Maybe we should start emailing the stations locally for MeTVNetwork,, etc., ? :)

Konrad2

07-07-11, 03:18 PM

> That's some marketing feat to tout "more viewing options"

If you viewed the old subchannels as unviewable due to compression
artifacts...

> I wonder what they did with the extra bandwidth.

dtvstream says:

Summary after scanning first 1536509 packets:
288 MBytes processed @ 0 Mb/s
16655 pes_pkts processed
3233 atsc_pkts, w/ distribution:
sst=137/137, mgt=1148/1, vct=394/1, rrt=2/1, dcct=0/0, dccsct=0/0
Dropped pkts (Continuity Counter Errors) = 0
Active PIDs in this stream
PID=0x0, ctrl_type=0x3=PAT, pkt_cnt=1490
PID=0x30, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=397
PID=0x31, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=974276
PID=0x34, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=31281
PID=0x35, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=10427
PID=0x40, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=397
PID=0x41, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=173705
PID=0x44, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=20855
PID=0x45, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=10427
PID=0x46, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=10427
PID=0x50, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=398
PID=0x51, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=93579
PID=0x54, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=20853
PID=0x55, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=20855
PID=0x56, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=20854
PID=0x160, ctrl_type=0x0=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=77208 <--- ???
PID=0x1d00, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=2682
PID=0x1d01, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=432
PID=0x1d02, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=189
PID=0x1d03, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=189
PID=0x1e00, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=456
PID=0x1e01, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=204
PID=0x1e02, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=66
PID=0x1e03, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=108
PID=0x1e80, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=18
PID=0x1ffb, ctrl_type=0x5=ATSC, pkt_cnt=3233
PID=0x1fff, ctrl_type=0x14=NULL, pkt_cnt=61016
Stream contains 3 program(s).
Default program is 3.
Program 3: 10-1 OPB:
PID=0x31 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x34 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x35 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
Program 4: 10-2 OPBPlus:
PID=0x41 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x44 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x45 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x46 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = spa
Program 5: 10-3 OPB-FM:
PID=0x51 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x54 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x55 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x56 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng

> When I looked this morning, "Plus" looked as fuzzy as ever.

That sounds bad, as it was pretty horrid before.

Yesterday's recording of NBR & Newshour turned out to be
kiddie cartoons. Like those have image detail requiring HD.

The titan listings haven't noticed the change yet. Hopefully
the listings on OPB's site are correct.

jbpdx

07-07-11, 05:01 PM

The other day KOPB had 6 channels on the air. 10.1 through 10.6. .2 and .4 were 480 versions of the HDs on .1 and .3. Create was on 10.4 in HD with .5 at 480. 10.6 had the radio channels. If they are cutting back, that's bad.... Give us more, not less.

As for KSLM/KWVT 17.2, 27.2 etc. No signal improvement here. I haven't been able to watch those channels on my downstairs TV for 2+ months. I can pick them up on rabbit ears upstairs though. I'm starting to wonder if there will ever be a transmitter fix. How could it possibly take this long to fix it?

Which Portland station is going to pick up MeTVNetwork???

So thankful for Netflix, YouTube, iTunes podcasts on AppleTV. Frontier says they'll soon have the ESPN app cleared so I'll be able to watch ESPN3 too with iPad/Airplay....

jbpdx

07-07-11, 05:49 PM

At this point it looks like OPB has dropped Create and all the shows. PBS has made no changes to Create....

TalkingRat

07-07-11, 10:02 PM

Konrad, nice set of packets, but I have no clue how it compares to what it was before. I had hoped they would return the bits they took to create the fourth subchannel. I sure noticed it when 10.1 lost audio quality and 10.3's video went low res.

jbpdx, are you saying the Plus programming has changed? I don't watch enough to notice changes, but the schedule still shows "Create" style programmon on Plus, which moved to 10.2. I think OPB changed the name to Plus when they merged the home and garden-y shows with the global news.

As for how long it takes to fix that antenna, when KPDX got stuck by lightening, I didn't see their signal again until they moved to Fox's old antenna six months later. Maybe they fixed it just long enough to sell it... Not sure, think maybe it was a French antenna?

scowl

07-07-11, 10:54 PM

Since you can't measure anything with dvbstream, here's an actual measurement:

OPB (10-1) is 10.9 Mbps.
OPBPlus (10-2) is 4.1 Mbps.
OPB-FM (10-3) is 1.4 Mbps.
The rest is going into the null packet stream.

The audio for OPB is 256kbps DD2.0. I don't know if they ever had 5.1 audio.

TalkingRat

07-08-11, 03:17 PM

Thanks for the data, scowl. I wondered how 10.2 could look so bad with 4.1 mbps, but it is looking better today, except for aspect ratio needing adjustment. "Normal" mode, it's a postage stamp.

I tried comparing your numbers to what Trip had on RabbitEars, but he's got an 840i capture from February for 10.1, seems odd. I see the stereo designation on 10.1, but I'll be sure to check in prime time, to see if it changes. It appears that much of the music performance got shifted to 10.2 now. Here's what they've done with/to Plus:

Weekdays on PLUS
Mornings: Crafts and gardening
Afternoons: Documentaries, music, news & cooking
Britcoms: At 11am & 6pm
Weekdays 7-9pm on PLUS
Mondays: Performing arts & specials
Tuesdays: Americana
Wednesdays: British drama
Thursdays: Investigative journalism and documentaries
Fridays: Mysteries

Weekends on PLUS
Saturday daytime: Children's programs, crafts & home improvement
Saturday evenings: Music & a movie at 10pm
Sunday daytime: Operas, public affairs & more
Sunday evenings: Oregon & the Northwest

OK, I'm going to give that some time to see if it's an improvement.

Trip in VA

07-08-11, 05:15 PM

I tried comparing your numbers to what Trip had on RabbitEars, but he's got an 840i capture from February for 10.1, seems odd.

Oops! I made a mistake in doing the update to the OPB listing. I deleted the OPB-HD and then changed all the numbering on the rest, forgetting to set 10-1 as HD. I'll be fixing that in a bit.

The capture from February has:
10-1 9.8 Mbps
10-2 2.0 Mbps
10-3 1.5 Mbps
10-4 0.7 Mbps
Datacast 2 Mbps

Of course, variable bitrate. I also have captures from an OPB translator back in April. New data has already replaced it, but I still have the old one in my e-mail. The translators are using the exact stream sent by the main transmitter.

Old K26FQ-D
10-1 11.6 Mbps
10-2 1.4 Mbps
10-3 1.4 Mbps
10-4 0.4 Mbps
Datacast 2 Mbps

New K26FQ-D
10-1 11.5 Mbps
10-2 3.2 Mbps
10-3 1.3 Mbps
Datacast 1 Mbps

New K34LS-D
10-1 12.2 Mbps
10-2 2.5 Mbps
10-3 1.1 Mbps
Datacast 1 Mbps

Bear in mind that OPB does use a variable bitrate encoder and thus these bitrates are only snapshots.

- Trip

jbpdx

07-09-11, 01:42 AM

Seems like lots of Create shows have been dropped....

As for KSLM Portland transmitter, if you are running a newspaper, your most important equipment is your printing press. If you're running a TV station, it's your transmitter. I don't understand the delay, but that's just me.

TalkingRat

07-09-11, 06:25 PM

Thanks for the numbers, Trip. It's perplexing why 10.2 looks worse, when they're feeding it approx. double what they allocated before.

OPB uses variable bitrate, but they don't appear to be judiciously applying it. One news segment looked bitstarved in SD, run against cartoons in HD. And while I can understand their wanting to build programming around a theme, the PQ on Sewing with Nancy was not improved by HD, while the cross-screen fast action of the circus act simultaneously run in SD was suffering. I caught the first episode of As Time Goes By, and it was quite blurry. It ought to be better with one less subchannel, but it's worse.

Trip in VA

07-10-11, 03:17 PM

With many thanks to forum member zyland, I now have a 20-second transport stream capture of KOPB (and KATU and KGW for M/H analysis purposes, but those are irrelevant to this message). It was taken 7/9 at 22:35, according to the time signal contained in the capture. There is a building show on 10-1, and a program looking at a stone building on 10-2.

Analyzing the stream, I found this range of bitrates:

10-1 5.5 Mbps - 14 Mbps
10-2 1.0 Mbps - 7.5 Mbps
10-3 0.5 Mbps - 3.5 Mbps

Now here's the catch. 10-1 did spike to 14 Mbps, but did so exactly twice, spending the rest of its time below 12 Mbps, and significant parts of that was spent below 10 Mbps.

So I guess that answers that.

- Trip

scowl

07-10-11, 07:29 PM

Now here's the catch. 10-1 did spike to 14 Mbps, but did so exactly twice, spending the rest of its time below 12 Mbps, and significant parts of that was spent below 10 Mbps.

Yeah, I averaged mine over five minutes. The spikes seem to come a little too late for some scenes so there's often a short blocky period before the bit rate catches up.

TalkingRat

07-11-11, 12:53 PM

I wonder why they give up so much to radio. It may be rare to give radio 3.5 Mpbs, but I don't see even a momentary advantage to improving the scenic stills, when the transition is not seamless for TV viewers. If I'm channel surfing, the slideshow grabs my attention, but if I stay to listen, I don't keep watching. The PQ is pretty bad, and a rare moment of improvement isn't enough to make a difference. But on the TV side, a rare moment of bad transition makes a difference in the overall impression of quality.

scowl

07-11-11, 01:16 PM

I wonder why they give up so much to radio. It may be rare to give radio 3.5 Mpbs, but I don't see even a momentary advantage to improving the scenic stills, when the transition is not seamless for TV viewers.
ATSC requires that even still images must send an I-frame (a complete picture) every second or so. The unchanging picture on the screen accounts for most of their "radio" bandwidth.

ATSC is not a good standard for radio broadcasting!

crossbeaux

07-11-11, 03:27 PM

ATSC requires that even still images must send an I-frame (a complete picture) every second or so. The unchanging picture on the screen accounts for most of their "radio" bandwidth.

ATSC is not a good standard for radio broadcasting!

Why not use an audio subchannel for radio broadcasting? Then they wouldn't need a picture or the bandwidth for one. They used to do this on NTSC for the radio reading service for the blind, before they decided they didn't care about the blind and got rid of the service (former disgruntled volunteer here).

scowl

07-11-11, 03:41 PM

OPB-FM actually has three audio streams. Has anyone checked them all out?

TalkingRat

07-11-11, 05:48 PM

Yes, I've checked out the three OPB radio offerings, but on my TV it's a hassle changing audio streams, and nobody here listens on OPB TV. I don't know anybody else who does, either. If I'm listening to music on Internet Radio or Pandora, I might have the TV on for album/artist info, but I haven't had any interest in slideshows.

When I got my CECBs (2008?) I remember OPB radio was audio only. I remember because one of my CECBs had a bouncing music note, so you knew it was an active signal.

scowl

07-11-11, 06:08 PM

When I got my CECBs (2008?) I remember OPB radio was audio only. I remember because one of my CECBs had a bouncing music note, so you knew it was an active signal.

Yes, the Samsung receivers will recognize a program without a video stream by displaying a music note on the screen but some receivers don't support this at all. They don't have to because it's not in the ATSC standard.

KOPB has hit a similar problem in the past by giving their SD channels strange smaller horizontal resolutions. MPEG-2 says you have to support this but ATSC doesn't so some receivers would simply not display the video. KOPB changed them back to 704 pixels and now sticks to the ATSC standard.

KOIN had a similar problem in the vertical direction. They were explicitly broadcasting 1088 lines instead of 1080. Secretly all 1080i stations are broadcasting 1088 lines (68 macroblocks) but state 1080 in the MPEG header. Most receivers played along, but one popular television sold at CostCo would see 1088 in the header and display a blank screen since that resolution is not in the ATSC spec. It's kind of hard to sell televisions that don't display the local CBS channel so KOIN had to change it to 1080.

Trip in VA

07-11-11, 06:13 PM

Some tuners don't handle audio-only subchannels very well, thus why many audio channels have a low-motion video feed attached.

EDIT: scowl beat me to it!

- Trip

scowl

07-11-11, 06:23 PM

Some tuners don't handle audio-only subchannels very well, thus why many audio channels have a low-motion video feed attached.

EDIT: scowl beat me to it!
But at least you didn't ramble on about boring ATSC trivia like I did. :)

TalkingRat

07-11-11, 07:03 PM

I like rambling. :)

So that explains why they added a video feed, but it probably didn't have to be widescreen, or use 3.5 Mpbs.

I'm sure Shapiro would agree with me, those who can't afford a radio can listen on their "free" internet.

Trip in VA

07-11-11, 07:08 PM

It sits around 1 Mbps most of the time and only spiked to 3.5 Mbps once or twice in the 20 seconds I have.

- Trip

TalkingRat

07-11-11, 07:37 PM

Well, that makes it a bit better. I'll try to stop complaining now. :)

scowl

07-11-11, 09:19 PM

So that explains why they added a video feed, but it probably didn't have to be widescreen, or use 3.5 Mpbs.
Widescreen only adds 10% more resolution (704 pixels vs. 640 pixels) so it doesn't really suck up that much bandwidth, plus everything is going widescreen anyway.

Except for all those new subchannels like Antenna TV and ThisTV that are broadcasting old VCR tapes. Even they are broadcasting 704 pixels horizontally in a 4:3 screen.

Konrad2

07-13-11, 02:31 PM

OPB then and now:

Entire channel has 19,394,080 bps

2010-03-16 40 minutes

Summary after scanning first 30167848 packets:
5671 MBytes processed @ 0 Mb/s
410498 pes_pkts processed
40941 atsc_pkts, w/ distribution:
sst=2689/2689, mgt=22538/1, vct=7728/1, rrt=43/1, dcct=0/0, dccsct=0/0
Dropped pkts (Continuity Counter Errors) = 0
Active PIDs in this stream
PID=0x0, ctrl_type=0x3=PAT, pkt_cnt=29244
PID=0x30, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=7798 video only video+audios
PID=0x31, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=15677191 51.97% = 10.08 Mb/s 16496082 = 54.68% = 10.6 Mb/s
PID=0x34, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=614168
PID=0x35, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=204723
PID=0x40, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=7798
PID=0x41, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=3605361 11.95% = 2.32 Mb/s 4321891 = 14.33% = 2.78 Mb/s
PID=0x44, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=307084
PID=0x45, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=204723
PID=0x46, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=204723
PID=0x50, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=7798
PID=0x51, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=2424527 8.04% = 1.56 Mb/s 2935924 = 9.73% = 1.89 Mb/s
PID=0x54, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=307084
PID=0x55, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=204313
PID=0x60, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=7798
PID=0x61, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=810444 2.69% = 0.521 Mb/s 1424612 = 4.72% = 0.916 Mb/s
PID=0x64, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=307084
PID=0x65, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=307084
PID=0x160, ctrl_type=0x0=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=3058117 10.14% = 1.97 Mb/s
PID=0x1d00, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=76037
PID=0x1d01, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=8424
PID=0x1d02, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=4675
PID=0x1d03, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=4250
PID=0x1e00, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=9828
PID=0x1e01, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=3042
PID=0x1e02, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=1638
PID=0x1e03, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=1521
PID=0x1e80, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=468
PID=0x1ffb, ctrl_type=0x5=ATSC, pkt_cnt=40941
PID=0x1fff, ctrl_type=0x14=NULL, pkt_cnt=1680900 5.57% = 1.08 Mb/s
Stream contains 4 program(s).
Default program is 3.
Program 3: 10-1 OPB-HD:
PID=0x31 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x34 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x35 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
Program 4: 10-2 OPB:
PID=0x41 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x44 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x45 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x46 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = spa
Program 5: 10-3 OPBPlus:
PID=0x51 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x54 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x55 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
Program 6: 10-4 OPB-FM:
PID=0x61 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x64 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x65 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng

2011-07-12 40 minutes

Summary after scanning first 30162866 packets:
5670 MBytes processed @ 0 Mb/s
326984 pes_pkts processed
40934 atsc_pkts, w/ distribution:
sst=2689/2689, mgt=22533/3, vct=7727/3, rrt=43/3, dcct=0/0, dccsct=0/0
Dropped pkts (Continuity Counter Errors) = 0
Active PIDs in this stream
PID=0x0, ctrl_type=0x3=PAT, pkt_cnt=29240 video only video+audios
PID=0x30, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=7798
PID=0x31, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=14418068 47.80% = 9.27 Mb/s 15236825 = 50.52% = 9.8 Mb/s
PID=0x34, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=614068
PID=0x35, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=204689
PID=0x40, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=7798
PID=0x41, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=4404491 14.60% = 2.83 Mb/s 5120901 = 16.98% = 3.29 Mb/s
PID=0x44, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=307033
PID=0x45, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=204689
PID=0x46, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=204688
PID=0x50, ctrl_type=0xa=PMT, pkt_cnt=7797
PID=0x51, ctrl_type=0x2=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=1672291 5.54% = 1.08 Mb/s 2593387 = 8.6% = 1.67 Mb/s
PID=0x54, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=307031
PID=0x55, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=307033
PID=0x56, ctrl_type=0x1=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=307032
PID=0x160, ctrl_type=0x0=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=1515550 5.02% = 0.97 Mb/s
PID=0x1d00, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=40936
PID=0x1d01, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=8424
PID=0x1d02, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=3400
PID=0x1d03, ctrl_type=0x6=EIT, pkt_cnt=3825
PID=0x1e00, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=6552
PID=0x1e01, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=2808
PID=0x1e02, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=1404
PID=0x1e03, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=1806
PID=0x1e80, ctrl_type=0x7=ETT, pkt_cnt=351
PID=0x1ffb, ctrl_type=0x5=ATSC, pkt_cnt=40934
PID=0x1fff, ctrl_type=0x14=NULL, pkt_cnt=5526234 18.32% = 3.55 Mb/s
Stream contains 3 program(s).
Default program is 3.
Program 3: 10-1 OPB:
PID=0x31 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x34 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x35 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
Program 4: 10-2 OPBPlus:
PID=0x41 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x44 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x45 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x46 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = spa
Program 5: 10-3 OPB-FM:
PID=0x51 Video (MPEG-2)
PID=0x54 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x55 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
PID=0x56 Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng

These numbers are averaged over 40 minutes. What are you guys using to get the peak numbers?

Konrad2

07-13-11, 02:40 PM

> Widescreen only adds 10% more resolution (704 pixels vs. 640 pixels)
> so it doesn't really suck up that much bandwidth, plus everything
> is going widescreen anyway.

640x480 is a computer standard, 4:3, with square pixels.
704x480 is a video standard, it is also 4:3, but with rectangular pixels.
704x480 is NOT supposed to be wide screen. If you display it on
something with square pixels and don't scale it, it will look streached.

Konrad2

07-13-11, 07:38 PM

I'm now getting a big fat gooseegg for Retro RF49.
Which is odd, since even channels with no station
have signal strength 20-35 from background noise.

mousepaws

07-13-11, 09:19 PM

I can no longer receive RTV 27-2, or 27-1... Worked fair yesterday (Jul 12, 2011).. Did they go splat? <o.o>

TalkingRat

07-13-11, 10:51 PM

I hope it means KWVT got their antenna in, or is getting ready for it soon.

ETA: Guess that was misplaced optimism. Since yesterday, after a lonnnng delay, I get a (broken) picture, not watchable yet. Still no update from KWVT, but they did put in a plug for Rabbitears. :)

jbpdx

07-21-11, 01:33 PM

KSLM/KWVT's signal in Portland is so weak I doubt very few people are picking it up. If you don't have the antenna just right when you scan, forget about it. Wish they'd start cranking it out soon. Or at least tell the truth about what's going on.

Greg_R

08-05-11, 01:22 AM

Is anyone having problems with channel 2.*? I'm in Hillsboro and get '0' signal strength on ch2 but plenty on 8 & other channels. I just want to rule out transmitter problems before debugging my setup, thanks!

TalkingRat

08-05-11, 09:58 AM

15 mi. south of Portland, and I'm getting 100% lock on 2.x.

zyland

08-05-11, 10:42 PM

HTBruceM

09-05-11, 08:48 PM

Hey aren't the cable companies supposed to be sending out the local TV channels with the same level of quality as over-the-air broadcast? I've been noticing really bad quality on local channels over Comcast.

I just recorded 3 hours of the US Open today on KOIN6, using different tuners. One tuner was on Comcast channel 706, the other tuner was on an HDHomeRun via antenna. File sizes were drastically different:

Channel 706 (Comcast) 13.2GB
Channel 6-1 (Antenna) 23.4GB

Clearly it seems that Comcast is compressing the signal. They're not supposed to do that are they? KOIN6 guys, do you have a comment on this?

scowl

09-05-11, 09:54 PM

Oh my gosh! On the week of June 12th KOIN did the unthinkable: they raised the bit rate of their HD stream to the max, an incredible 17.3 Mbps! I guess their hopes of cramming one or two subchannels in there have been put on hold. Poor Comcast must have been unprepared for this flood of ones and zeros.

I feel like it's 2004 again. There's no way this can last.

jbpdx

09-07-11, 12:50 PM

Anyone heard anything about any Portland TV station picking up MeTVNetwork? It's on now in 60% of markets... Much better programming than RetroTV, which I can no longer pick up in Hillsboro.

JeffinWesternWA

09-07-11, 03:10 PM

Koin is only station w/o a subchannel or sister station. Wish KOIN or Fox 12 would consider MeTV as a second channel. KWVT was supposed to have been back @ full power & fixed (17.2/27.2) before summer. Still appears they are @6kW reduced power. Once bad weather comes, imagine the signal, (which has been decent 60~ ish over here 16miles from tower in Camas) will suffer. Wonder, wonder, no update n KWVT Facebook either?

Konrad2

09-07-11, 05:34 PM

JeffinWesternWA complains:

> Koin is only station w/o a subchannel or sister station. Wish KOIN or
> Fox 12 would consider MeTV as a second channel.

If KOIN's picture is too good for you, you could subscribe to
comcrap and get the compressed-to-death version you desire.
Comcrap's version of Fox 12 is probably crap as well.
And I'm sure they have hundreds of other compressed-to-death
channels you could enjoy.

Looking through a recent scan, we have two copies of the
ION family of compressed subchannels. Why not lobby to
have MeTV replace one?

We no longer have any stations on VHF-LO. MeTV could go there.

While you're waiting for the comcrap installer, perhaps
the image below will hold you over.

This recording had no reception problems and decoded without error.
It is the result of violating the 1 HD or 2 SD rule.

TalkingRat

09-07-11, 05:56 PM

Supposedly half power since March for KWVT. It is what it is. Unwatchable, but the commercials don't break up, so I suspect it's more than the antenna. When KPDX was there at half power, a big half power, the signal was bad, too.

Ch 5-7 VHF is in use, I believe. Ch5 analog, and I think someone's on Ch6, but at such low power I'll never see it. OPB Corvallis is digital Ch 7. Now and then I get it off the back end of my antenna.

Konrad2

09-07-11, 06:40 PM

> Supposedly half power since March for KWVT.

Whatever was wrong with RF49 from late June through August
appears to be fixed. I'm now getting perfect reception
and no decode errors most of the time. The improvement
started August 31st. The signal strength and signal quality
numbers didn't get better, so I don't know what changed.

> Ch5 analog, and I think someone's on Ch6, but at such low
> power I'll never see it.

Whoops, forgot about ch5. We used to have 2 and 4 and they
are now vacant, right? Since the FCC no longer cares about
interference we could probably have a ch3 as well.

> OPB Corvallis is digital Ch 7.

ch7 is VHF-HI.

TalkingRat

09-07-11, 10:55 PM

So it is. I'm asleep at the switch here.

KWVT signal has been 77-78 on my Vizio (an optimistic meter) since March, but every few minutes it drops to zero and freezes a pixelated frame a minute or so. Hard to follow a show with that much missing. Same problem with the Mag 2160A tuner, which shows 17% but doesn't freeze as often.

Konrad2

09-08-11, 12:40 AM

Just got an email response from RF49. They "swapped out the
processor / modulator. This one has better linear/non-linear
correction capability, so it should produce a cleaner digital
signal."

So that explains the improvement I'm seeing in reception.

JeffinWesternWA

09-08-11, 12:35 PM

Did KWVT folks mention when they would go up to the 15kW~ they originally were supposed to radiate? the >6kW of power now doesn't cut it, especially when the weather interferes!

I'd take a MeTV on any second/third channel, any word if ANY PDX station is interested in adding them, or any other new network for DTV??

TalkingRat

09-08-11, 01:12 PM

Does that mean they are at full power again, or not? If this is as good as it gets, I'll delete those stations. The RS guy told me most of Canby is LOS, they apparently have enough distance on the hills, so it's LOS from Canby to Salem. In between, there's a lot of 1 edge reception. I wonder if it's Bull Mountain that's blocking the signal.

Konrad2

09-08-11, 08:15 PM

> Does that mean they are at full power again, or not?

They are still at reduced power. The power amp is in
final testing.

How much gain does your antenna have at RF49?
An antenna with high gain at RF49 would help a lot,
maybe more than their improved power amp.

TalkingRat

09-09-11, 07:35 PM

Don't know gain by frequency, UHF average gain is 11dB. I get RF45 and RF46 just fine.

Konrad2

09-10-11, 08:39 PM

jbpdx

09-11-11, 11:59 AM

Wow. Am able to pick up 17.2/27.2 again on upstairs TV but still can't downstairs.

Meanwhile, after OPB dropped Create and said they wouldn't duplicate programming on 10.1 and 10.2, that's exactly what they're doing. All-day simulcasting. So much for variety. PBS also has other channels that OPB isn't carrying---PBS World and PBS Kids. Who's running that place?

jbpdx

09-11-11, 12:42 PM

What's the latest with these WatchTV Inc. stations (16, 28) that have gone silent? Any chance one of those would pick up MeTVNetwork? AccuWeather Channel? They're low power but I never had any problem picking them up when they were broadcasting.

TalkingRat

09-11-11, 01:47 PM

> Don't know gain by frequency, UHF average gain is 11dB

If we foolishly assume that your gain at rf49 is 11dB,
there are antennas that do better.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

How was the analog rf49? snow? ghosts? interference?

Not too foolish an assumption, actually. Looking at that chart, the trend appears to be either flat, or with increasing gain to around RF65.

I had analog ghosts, some channels had more than a dozen. Analog KPDX developed interference when they were at half power, after the lightening strike. I don't remember much about individual analog signals, as we went digital soon after we went OTA.

KWVT showed up on my main TV when they got the loaner at half signal. If their antenna is fixed, we'll soon know. I'm puzzled why you'd suggest a new antenna now, when you just said KWVT is in final testing. Half power didn't work with KORS, either.

Konrad2

09-12-11, 07:22 PM

> I had analog ghosts, some channels had more than a dozen.

A more directional antenna reduces ghosts (aka multipath).
If you know what direction the reflections are coming from
(a water tower for example) you can look for an antenna
that has a null in that direction. Or do the two antenna trick.
(described on hdtvprimer.com)

> Analog KPDX developed interference when they were at half power

I thought it was only their digital channel that was at half power?

If the interference is coming from a direction other than the
towers, a more directional antenna will pick up less of it.
If you know what frequency the interference is, it may be
possible to filter it out.

> I'm puzzled why you'd suggest a new antenna now, when you just
> said KWVT is in final testing.

More power from the transmitter will not help with multipath.
A stronger signal gives stronger reflections.

Given your description of your reception, I suspect that 3dB
more power at the transmitter will not be enough to get
good reception. But 3dB more from the transmitter plus
several dB from a better antenna, plus less multipath,
plus maybe less interference should be enough to get a
significant improvement.

TalkingRat

09-13-11, 11:12 AM

Looks like KWVT is back in business.

Konrad, KPDX had a station notice after the lightening strike and said both analog and digital were at half power. Perhaps analog was for a different reason, like safety, or diagnostics after the storm.

JeffinWesternWA

09-13-11, 12:03 PM

KWTV/RTV looks/sounds the same to me still, about a 60~ signal (16 miles+/- LoS, attic antenna oriented for best 27-2 reception) around here IMHO....depending on weather but, there still is the low volume. The increase to 15Kw should help a bit, especially when rains starts, which tends to knock 20-40% off peak power on weak signals I've found but, that continued low volume still is a problem...THE coverage map on FB is a joke...

MeTV network would be a good .2 addition to one of the networks IMHO....

jbpdx

09-13-11, 02:36 PM

Nothing on KSLM/KWVT about transmitter, still weak here. Meanwhile, RetroTV's schedule/shows have deteriorated lately, in my opinion.

If we have to depend on KOIN or KPTV to pick up MeTV, we might never get it in Portland....

cburbs

09-15-11, 09:13 AM

Anyone know what is up with 10.1? Yesterday the station wasn't working in the morning for the kids. This morning it is in/out. Are they doing any work on there system. It was like this off and on last week.

Konrad2

09-15-11, 11:47 AM

I'm not seeing a reception problem with OPB.

I am seeing an intermittant problem with their datastream,
both on the .1 HD and "Plus".

TalkingRat

09-15-11, 10:56 PM

crossbeaux

09-18-11, 06:11 PM

By going back a few posts in this thread, I think I already know the answer to this question, but I'll ask anyway.

I get my TV signal through Comcast, and today KOIN-HD during the NFL football broadcast was almost unwatchable. Pixelation and compression artifacts up the wazoo. I'm assuming this wasn't the case on OTA, was it? A few posts back, scowl claimed that KOIN raised their bitrate. Is that still the case, and could the raised bitrate of the original stream mean even worse quality for Comcast's compressed stream? (i.e. even more data lost by Comcast.)

There was a marked difference in quality between the NFL games on KOIN and KPTV when viewed on the cable. Although probably not as good as OTA, the KPTV signal was clear and free of obvious artifacts.

If you folks say the KOIN OTA signal was clean, is there some protocol or mechanism for reporting Comcast's overcompression to the FCC? I understood that cable companies are required to carry OTA channels with no noticeable degradation. And what I saw today seems like a serious amount of degradation.

Konrad2

09-18-11, 08:32 PM

> A few posts back, scowl claimed that KOIN raised their bitrate.
> Is that still the case,

The following bitrates are for 1 video plus 1 audio PID.

KOIN 18150272 bps 2011-09-18 afternoon
KPDX 17408800 2011-09-18 afternoon
KPTV 16050688 2011-09-04
KATU 13519456 2011-09-05
OPB 11048384 2011-09-10
KPXG 10260288 2011-07-30
KGW 9566944 2011-07-11

10 Mbps is about right for SD, not HD.

I believe these are instantaneous numbers at random times.
Maximum/peak rates would be more useful.

> And what I saw today seems like a serious amount of degradation.

So use an antenna and get higher quality video for free.

crossbeaux

09-19-11, 09:53 AM

So use an antenna and get higher quality video for free.

Thanks for the info. I like the convenience and lack of complication of cable, especially when it comes to a DVR, and I'm willing to pay for it. I'd just like to have a quality picture.

JeffinWesternWA

09-19-11, 01:00 PM

The weekends modest rains/clouds havealready affected my KWVT/RTV reception just 16 miles away. My signal strength, which has been fair (high 50's) to good (high 60's) for these two stations - (my weakest of them all) on the meter dropped into the 40's/50's most of the weekend during rains causing some pixelation. That under 6kW signal just won't cut it except fot he most direct/close in LoS receivers...Too Bad, they were supposed to be back at full power (Low power under 15kW~ I believe) by early summer. Have seen no change in the low audio nor the weak transmission. Any news from KWVT on this?(nothing on their FB page, emails from last spring said this was to be fixed by summer - missed that deadline I guess). The signal increase to almost 15kW~ just MIGHT be enough except for the worst conditions to allow them to be watchable full-time. With bad weather coming, the 1/2~ power current signal doesn't cut it with the rain/wind.

jbpdx

09-20-11, 11:42 AM

Sounded fishy to me from the beginning. Why would it take so long to repair/upgrade a transmitter or any electronic equipment? I think it has to do with $$$$ or the lack of it.

cburbs

09-23-11, 10:28 AM

cburbs, something definitely going on with 10.1. I just set up a CM7000pal, and when I turned it on this pm, it had dropped 10.1 and reassigned 10.2 to a 4 digit subchannel. I rescanned and both came back.

KWVT changed again, I lost that stable pic. Now it pixelates quite a bit, not constantly, but it's my worst channel again. The CM7000 can't hold the signal, even though signal strength was up slightly today.

I am still having issues with this station - nothing has changed in my setup. There is work being done in our area and they have a lift that is being used that is as high as our house that could be causing some interference maybe?

Well I decided to check the antenna in the attic and it had fallen over thus the reason for signal loss. Put it back up and tied it up this time so that it can't fall over.

JeffinWesternWA

09-25-11, 01:13 PM

:confused: STILL no response from KWVT ref PDXxmitter and 17.2/27.2 signal/audio. The summer presented a nice signal but, the recent rain/wind has already made the signal drop 30%~ and pixel at 15~ iles east. Unless you are staring at the towers, or perhaps LOS along the flat valley to the south, and weather isn't stormin', this station will be unwatchable for most of the "viewing area" w/o some repairs/power (currently only around 6Kw) incease to the allowed max. They don't seem to want to answer "what's up?" w/ the supposed to be fixed " by summer" transmitter. Imagine it's $$...Anybody in the know??

jbpdx

09-25-11, 02:52 PM

Probably reaching <10% of metro Portland. And most people with cable don't even know about these channels. Too bad those WatchTV channels 16, 28 etc went silent. They could have picked up RetroTV for Portland, as well as MeTVNetwork. Accuweather also has a digital sub network that we're not getting here.

Lost Dog

09-26-11, 12:31 AM

Konrad2

09-26-11, 04:03 PM

The audio level has nothing to do with the transmitter power.
Some stations are louder than others.

There is more to reception than power level.
I recorded 6 programs from RF49 yesterday (Sunday 2011-09-25)
The tuners reported perfect reception.
I recorded 9 programs from RF33 yesterday and 2 of them
had reception problems. According to tvfool, RF33 is my 2nd
highest power level, after RF30. (A whopping 0.2 dB difference)

(Don't ask me when I'm going to have time to watch all this...)

Yes RF49 could benefit from more power, and perhaps there are
further improvements in signal quality possible. But there
are things you could do on your end to improve reception,
and they would help a lot more than the 3dB power increase
you are impatiently waiting for.

jbpdx

09-28-11, 11:49 AM

Tuesday night 17/27 started coming in on my downstairs TV, and upstairs signal is stronger. Still coming in this a.m.

JeffinWesternWA

09-28-11, 05:23 PM

I think the 17/27 better reception is weather related. I had prety good signal till rains/clouds last week, has been spotty since, also noticed better w/ calm sun of today. I notice that weak signal typically is 30% less on my TV in bad weather. Sometimes worse!:confused:

jbpdx

09-29-11, 12:25 PM

I spoke too soon. I've lost it again even though it's nice and clear today...

TalkingRat

09-30-11, 12:11 PM

jbpdx, sounds exactly like what I got, two days of reception, then back to unwatchable on my main TV. Rain isn't a reception problem here, so I think "tower work" rather than "rain" if things get glitchy. We have had a broad range of recent issues: OPB shifting programming temporarily to 10.2; an unstable CW lock for a few weeks, unrecordable last week, still glitchy this week; and even rock-solid KGW has been glitchy.

Wild guess, but maybe reception is related to the radio towers that were recently dismantled -- stations reduce power for safety of workers on nearby towers. I don't have any idea how close these towers are to the TV towers, but there could also be seasonal TV tower work before the winter rains. Pre-transition, I remember it took 3 weeks for everything to return to normal after one station was off air for a day.

JeffinWesternWA

09-30-11, 06:14 PM

I think it's weather/atmosphere...after reduced reception signal strength the past few days (50's/low 60'sbpeak), today, Friday with a nice weather day it's back to low 60's~ strength, mid-high 60's "peaks" on 17.2/27.2, right where it's been most of summer, go back to the weird winds, rain, overcast, water running off the roof and BOOM, 20% - 30% less signal for me....it's gotta be the low power signal that just gets degraded by conditions at any distance from the tower...?? I bet that returns to similar with next weeks predicted weather?

Same as last spring for my reception.....KRCW 32 is always my best 100 peak/96-100 constant, even the VHF 12, 8, 10 are very good in that order of strength. The other UHF are fine, even KGWZ-LD low power weather radar sweep peaks at 80 ish in great weather! W 1080P attic mount, no splits of RG6 (100 ~ ft) run to tv, one wall connector. Antenna does look "thru" couple of my roof peaks and corner of neighbors roof but, no trees and lotsa flat land till the ridge up/overby Rt 14. Almost literally but, not quite LOS. Antenna has been oriented, many times for best 27.2 signal as that's the worst still....

TalkingRat

10-17-11, 01:35 PM

I missed part of a recent OPB recording, and the repeat session failed to record at all, so I checked OPB site and found this notice:

October 13, 2011: We are currently experiencing technical difficulties with our over-the-air broadcast of OPB TV Channel 10 in Portland and SW Washington, as well as some rural translators around Oregon. (Most cable broadcasts are not affected.) Our engineers are in the process of putting together the necessary parts for repair, but this process may take up to a few days. Thank you so much for your patience.

jbpdx

10-22-11, 05:25 PM

DigaDo

10-23-11, 04:29 PM

I don't think RTV/KSLM 27 is ever going to get their signal back up in Portland. RetroTV network is having its shows cannibalized by AntennaTV and MeTV. They are also losing affiliates across the country to those networks and might not make it. So KSLM may have decided to not spend any money on Portland... That would leave them as a Salem local station--KWVT/AmericaOne...

I'm located line of sight about five miles northeast of the Portland antenna farms. If the window shades had been open when the attached photo was snapped one could see some of the broadcast towers through those west-facing windows. Notice my two RCA antennas at the top of the equipment stack.

I've had little trouble with the RTV signal at my location.

I've been recording Naked City on weekdays at 3:00 p.m. and weekends at 7:00 p.m. There was a black screen for the first two minutes of the episode shown on 10/20. I also record Peter Gunn at 4:00 p.m. on the weekends. These programs are recorded through the internal ATSC tuner of a Philips 3575 HDD/DVD recorder seen at the bottom of my home office stack.

jbpdx

10-23-11, 08:45 PM

You're in the sweet spot I guess. A friend of mine lives near Cedar Mill not 2 mi from the towers and he can't pick up 17/27.
I had trouble picking up those channels when they were at "full power."

Naked City is one of the few good shows Retro has left... However, MeTV is showing it now so it's probably a matter of time before Retro drops it.

earletp

10-24-11, 05:59 PM

For what it's worth, I'm in SE Portland and don't have any trouble picking up 17 or 27 here either.

jbpdx

10-25-11, 12:29 AM

Directional signal maybe (is that possible, pointed east)? Just checked KWVT Facebook page and they aren't responding to queries from people about Portland signal.

JeffinWesternWA

10-25-11, 01:05 PM

If it IS directional, it's not towards the east, folks around me, Gresham, etc., aren't seeing much signal strength at 15-25 miles away, if anything it would be southerly oriented I'd think? At.9~ Kw it's not enough power with the hills/buidings but, seems to be better over the relatively flat valley as expected... the so called "reception map" on the FB page IS a joke, not even close...

Wonder if KOIN is ever thinking of a sub channel? MeTV could be a logical choice for them? OR Fox 12 prhaps?

DigaDo

10-25-11, 07:46 PM

You're in the sweet spot I guess...

I'm at the highest location, near Penninsula park, in zip code 97217.

cmchotmail

11-07-11, 12:35 AM

earletp

11-07-11, 01:00 AM

Hey guys - new to OTA.

Would this be the right place for me to seek advice on my initial setup?
If not, could you direct me to the right place?

If so:
I'm in SE (Lents area, 82/Holgate), 7.9 miles (as the crow flies) from the towers.
No tall buildings around. Nor any big trees.
I have 1 HDTV (w/ built in tuner) needing reception.
House is wired for cable, so coax is running to most rooms (and up the outside of the house), if that helps/matters.

Don't know if I should start w/ (can get away with) an indoor antenna. If so, which one seems to be the best bang for the buck?
Or am I likely going to need a rooftop antenna? If so, which one is best for the buck?
(Hoping to not have to spend more than $30-$40, if that's doable.)
Do I need a UHF/VHF, or just UHF, or just VHF? All I want is the big/main/standard 8 or 9 channels.

Any advice/feedback is greatly appreciated. (Looking forward to ditching Comcast.) Thanks!
-C

I'm not that far from you and I'm able to receive all the local channels with a Silver Sensor indoor antenna (see pic).
If you decide to go with an indoor antenna you will want a fairly unobstructed view to the west. Also you may have to futz with the placement, not only horizontally, but vertically as well to get everything working. Use good quality coax, some patience, and odds are you can get it going.

JeffinWesternWA

11-07-11, 09:30 AM

...currently there are about 24 english channels OTA, though many are religious only or childrens programming. I'd look at a modest UHF/VHF combo antenna to mount at the end of the coax you have indoors or ouside. You may need an amplifier after the antenna if to many splits exist or the coax runs are very long. Should be NO problem getting a great signal on ALL stations unless you have some "blockage" that distorts/bounces signal like buildings or very heavy trees. In your case a nice antenna and now cheap pricing (solid signal.com a good place to shop it along with the amplifier and any mount) could be the Weingard 1080P. It's small size and seemingly much better endorsements from users across the country (vice it's modest specs) plus the good channel separation make it a logical choice. It does work and a few users here have it. I'd "final orient/tune" it against channel 27-2 (RTV) which probably would be the weakest channel to receive listening to readers here. Check your coax as much as possible and mounting area and "get 'er done" you'll have a LOT to watch. Throw in a computer w/HDMI cable to your tv for watching online (Hulu, etc.,) and thats a nice free setup! G'Luck!!

yohan1969

11-07-11, 06:38 PM

Please forgive me if this is more of a TiVo question and not necessarily an OTA Portland question.

I recently got a new antenna and did an OTA rescan with my TiVo Premiere box. I was able to get RetroTV, but the guide shows no program data even though it has communicated with TiVo's servers. Is there something I am forgetting or needing to do to get the guide data for the new channel?

cmchotmail

11-07-11, 09:06 PM

earletp

11-08-11, 10:32 AM

I have 2 HDTVs in 2 different rooms of my house. Both of those TVs are next to coax/cable plugs in the wall, and the house is wired for Comcast cable. My question is: can I use that existing cable to connect it to an OTA antenna on my roof that can then get a signal through that coax to any of the cable plugs throughout the house?
Yes, just connect the antenna at the same place outside your house that Comcast used.

Does the signal strength degrade when it runs through all of that length?
Yes, the amount depends on the quality of coax, fittings, and length of cables.

Would that kind of setup require an amplifier of some sort?
Not necessarily, it would depend on the antenna you choose, the conditions in the previous answer and the sensitivity of the tuners in your HDTV's. It is always best to avoid using an amplifier if possible. They can create problems of their own.

(edited to add...)
Plus you are fairly close to the towers, so if it were me, an amp would not be on my initial shopping list. In fact, you may find you actually have to pad (lower) your signal. With digital TV, more is not always better. The tuners are designed to operate within a range, so too much signal can be just as bad as too little.

JeffinWesternWA

11-08-11, 10:33 AM

Yes you can use it, although most cable co's/builders use RG59 cable, RG6 is preferred but, the existing cable should work fine regardless of type. At the end where the cable is connected from outdoors you can connect to your antenna or make a new splice/end where convenient. Try to verify/check that the cable is properly connected to any all splitters/conectors and your antenna. Then "see" after installation if you need an amplifier. If it didn't need an amp with the cable, it also probably will not with OTA. Some picture degradation at the longest run of cable wil tell you to boost the signal or not. The key will be getting your antenna located/mounted in a good spot for orientation, whether inside or outside and having a good "view" toward the antenna farm. I like to use a rule of thumb getting an antenna at least "one size bigger" than the online sites recommend and trying to have as few "cuts/splices/splitters" as possible in an install. Sounds like with the place "prewired" the hard work is mostly done. Enjoy DTV which is FREE TV and there are a LOT of PDX area stations (about 30~)

earletp

11-08-11, 11:20 AM

Comcast uses RG6 coax.

If it didn't need an amp with the cable, it also probably will not with OTA
One has nothing to do with the other, though like I said, it is doubtful he will need an amp.

JeffinWesternWA

11-08-11, 09:54 PM

Comcast uses RG6 coax.

One has nothing to do with the other, though like I said, it is doubtful he will need an amp.

didn't mean an amp to boost signal strength from xmitter to antenna but, if needed due to excess cox length/splits, to amplify signal down the coax due to loss over length of cable...:) theres a diff....

cmchotmail

11-10-11, 12:01 AM

OK, thanks for the help guys. Will give it all a try and will report back w/ any troubles/questions.

TalkingRat

11-21-11, 12:53 AM

So now I know what it feels like when the Big 3 networks are off air. In prime time. Fox was on air, so I tried the 10 o'clock news, but I didn't hear anything about the problem, so I tried KRCW, thinking they'd be more likely to say something -- but there was no audio on the news, and no closed captioning. Online, KGW said the transmitter was down, KATU said they were aware that some viewers have no signal and engineers are working on it, and KOIN said nothing that I saw.

I learned about all the rain on the way when I looked online. Well, at least it isn't 30" of snow.

edited to add update on msnbc, from KGW staff:

Three Portland TV stations lost their signal on many carriers Sunday evening.
The broadcasts from Channels 2, 6 and 8 went dark for many cable, satellite and over-the-air users between 8 and 9 p.m. All three stations have transmission towers in the Sylvan Hills but PGE investigated and said the problem was not power-related.
On KGW, the signal loss came during the final three minutes of Sunday Night Football. The Philadelphia Eagles won the game, 17-10.
KGW engineers created a solution at about 9:30 that restored broadcasts for Channel 8. As of 10 p.m., a post on the KATU-TV website indicated their signal was still not available for some viewers. Tweets from KOIN-TV indicated the same.
The cause of the outage affecting the three stations was not immediately known.

KATU and KOIN were back on at 11, but KATU dropped off again. KOIN said check tomorrow for when they will rebroadcast the missed prime time shows.

TalkingRat

11-21-11, 09:56 AM

A few more details on the loss of signal - scary to think a car could do all this.

KOIN Local 6 is experiencing technical difficulties with our signal transmission.

The fiber line from the transmitter to KOIN caught fire after a car hit a pole, causing damage to the lines.

Our engineers are working on the problem and hope to bring programming back to you as soon as possible.

The initial signal was lost Sunday night during prime time programming and persisted on-and-off as crews worked to secure the signal.

KOIN Local 6 is still available on Comcast; in Portland the channels are No. 6 and No. 706.\

The accident caused dropped signals for other local TV stations as well.

We apologize for any inconvenience.

scowl

11-21-11, 10:52 AM

A few more details on the loss of signal - scary to think a car could do all this.

Scary to think that fiber lines are so flammable!

TalkingRat

11-22-11, 02:08 PM

And now it's not a car, it's a falling tree.

cburbs

11-22-11, 10:39 PM

KATU is still down here for me. Last I checked I think it was on for a little while yesterday.

Walternate

11-22-11, 11:27 PM

Try re-scanning your channels, if you haven't done so already.

Konrad2

11-23-11, 12:13 PM

Any word on if/when they will be rerunning shows
from Sunday's outage?

Phantom Gremlin

11-26-11, 12:23 AM

Any word on if/when they will be rerunning shows
from Sunday's outage?

Ha. Good luck with that.

All the local channels went insane a few weeks ago, I think it was Saturday Nov 12. They were all showing Occupy Portland in late night, instead of e.g. Saturday Night Live. I never did see them re-air SNL, but it will probably come around in repeats in a few weeks.

Fortunately, FiOS survived the car/tree/whatever outage.

cburbs

11-26-11, 07:12 PM

Try re-scanning your channels, if you haven't done so already.

That fixed it on my one setup. For some reason my other TV was fine though....

jbpdx

11-29-11, 02:32 AM

Digital sub-channels update: Universal Sports will be dropped from channel 32.3 early next year. Comcast is making the network cable/satellite only, taking it away from over-the-air viewers nationally. Some surprise. So MeTV could be picked by KRCW-32 then. BounceTV has signed a deal with Meredith stations, so 12 or 49 will likely pick that up.

jbpdx

11-29-11, 02:59 AM

I've read a lot of comments on some of these forums of people complaining that sub-channels degrade the HD quality of the main channel. But I notice that the main Ion channel has one of the best HD pictures and they have 2 sub-channels. So I'm not sure I buy that theory.

Trip in VA

11-29-11, 06:21 AM

So MeTV could be picked by KRCW-32 then.

If you look up who owns Antenna TV, then look up who owns KRCW, you will quickly figure out why this sentence I quoted makes no sense at all.

BounceTV has signed a deal with Meredith stations, so 12 or 49 will likely pick that up.

Bounce TV has signed a deal with exactly one Meredith station, KSMO Kansas City.

I've read a lot of comments on some of these forums of people complaining that sub-channels degrade the HD quality of the main channel. But I notice that the main Ion channel has one of the best HD pictures and they have 2 sub-channels. So I'm not sure I buy that theory.

Not theory, fact. There's a fixed number of bits in a digital TV transport stream (19.39 Mbps). Any bits used for subchannels are bits then not available for the primary. Some encoders handle reduced bitrates better than others, but when my local PBS offered 11 Mbps and my free-to-air satellite dish offered 17.5 Mbps, it was no contest which was better (by a mile).

- Trip

jbpdx

11-29-11, 04:22 PM

You're right about the two Chicago companies. I didn't think about that. Then it looks like it's up to KATU to pick up MeTV or Portland will likely end up the only major metro without it. I don't see 6, 12 or 49 picking up MeTV.

zyland

12-09-11, 02:29 AM

From OPB e-news letter dated December 7, 2011

"Over the past few years, OPB has expanded our service to new regions and upgraded equipment to meet the needs of digital, high-definition broadcasts. However, all the new equipment we've added has outpaced the limits of our existing emergency power system.

To make sure that OPB is able to broadcast should an outside power outage occur, our engineers will install a major upgrade to our power system over the next two weekends.

The upgrade means that over the next two Sunday nights (Dec. 11 and 18 from midnight to roughly 4am Monday), OPB TV and Radio and KMHD will be off the air statewide (including on cable and satellite).

We apologize for any inconvenience this improvement ensures that you'll be able to enjoy everything that OPB has to offer. "

jbpdx

12-15-11, 02:03 PM

New York City, the no. 1 TV market, now has MeTV. Out of the top 25 TV markets, the only ones left without a MeTV affiliate is down to Dallas, Washington DC, Detroit, Miami and Portland... Denver and Indianapolis also just added affiliates.

Trip in VA

12-15-11, 04:45 PM

1) WSAH (New York) has not launched yet and I'm not aware of a launch date.

2) WSAH is to New York what KUNP La Grande is to Portland, except without the translator in town. It's effectively cable/satellite-only.

3) A Dallas affiliate is launching in January.

- Trip

jbpdx

12-17-11, 03:13 PM

The Connecticut station is in bankruptcy or something. But they've already lined up all the NYC cable companies. You pretty much need cable in NYC. So if Dallas is coming soon too, that leaves Portland as one of only 4 of the top 25 markets without it. I doubt KOIN will add it with pending CBS sub-channels. So I guess it's up to KPTV Meredith 12/49 unless one of those area WatchTV stations comes back and picks it up. Any thoughts?

scowl

12-17-11, 07:24 PM

Aren't two subchannels of non-stop reruns from decades ago and commercials for worthless junk enough for this city?

rdvegas

12-18-11, 09:22 AM

Aren't two subchannels of non-stop reruns from decades ago and commercials for worthless junk enough for this city?

No. Cable is populated by numerous channels of movies from decades ago.

What may be worthless junk commercials to you, maybe be commercials for the handy product another viewer has been searching.

scowl

12-18-11, 11:51 AM

No. Cable is populated by numerous channels of movies from decades ago.
Not just cable channels. ThisTV is airing cropped videotape versions of excellent movies from decades ago. People want to watch an old movie more than an episode of an old television series.

What may be worthless junk commercials to you, maybe be commercials for the handy product another viewer has been searching.
For the people who haven't heard of Google yet?

I've looked at MeTV's schedule and I don't see much of anything that you can't get from AntennaTV and ThisTV. The rest you can rent on DVD if you really want to watch it. For example they're airing the original Fugitive series which is excellent but it was finally released on DVD a couple of years ago. Combat! has been on DVD for years. Everything they air is on DVD, even both seasons of The Guns of Will Sonnet!

One example of a great series that's being ignored is the Wild Wild West series. It is not aired by any networks. Even the Hallmark channel couldn't tolerate its low ratings and dropped it. You want to watch it, you have to rent it on DVD. Old television series do not get much of an audience and with our market saturated with AntennaTV and ThisTV and cable channels, I'm not surprised MeTV isn't here.

TalkingRat

12-19-11, 10:25 AM

Scowl, funny you should mention Wild Wild West. It was the last show on the list of MeTV's program page.

http://metvnetwork.com/programs.php

We don't tend to watch the classic TV shows, though. The most watched SD channel is 8.2, and DS likes the soon-to-be-gone Universal Sports.

scowl

12-19-11, 11:13 AM

Scowl, funny you should mention Wild Wild West. It was the last show on the list of MeTV's program page.

http://metvnetwork.com/programs.php

That's right! It's on Saturday afternoons. I wonder if anyone watches it.

rdvegas

12-19-11, 01:31 PM

I've looked at MeTV's schedule and I don't see much of anything that you can't get from AntennaTV and ThisTV.

There is virtually no duplication of programming among METV, Antenna TV, and THIS.

It is simply not true that more people want to watch old movies than they want to watch veteran series.

For the record, I watched Wild Wild West this weekend.

scowl

12-19-11, 02:06 PM

There is virtually no duplication of programming among METV, Antenna TV, and THIS.
They all provide the same cheap programming that local television stations used to broadcast until they found other programming that people wanted to watch (mainly talk shows). These networks simply buy the least expensive programming to fill the dead air between cheap advertising. All of these shows were syndicated for decades until their audiences lost interest and stations dropped them.

It is simply not true that more people want to watch old movies than they want to watch veteran series.
And this must be why these networks are stuck on subchannels instead of national cable networks and why there are two HD cable channels dedicated to classic movies broadcast in their OAR, not the cropped VHS versions you see on ThisTV.

For the record, I watched Wild Wild West this weekend.
Why? I watched the entire first season in a month when I rented the DVDs. If you like the show then go rent the DVDs. Many of these old series have extra features. For example the Combat! DVDs include fascinating commentary tracks from Oscar-winning director Robert Altman and prolific 60's TV director Ted Post.

rdvegas

12-20-11, 03:53 PM

If you like the show then go rent the DVDs. Many of these old series have extra features. For example the Combat! DVDs include fascinating commentary tracks from Oscar-winning director Robert Altman and prolific 60's TV director Ted Post.

Watching a program online, or renting/buying the dvd collection, is not on the same as watching an over-the-air broadcast.

scowl

12-20-11, 04:11 PM

Watching a program online, or renting/buying the dvd collection, is not on the same as watching an over-the-air broadcast.
Yes, watching it on DVD is better.

No commercials screaming at you to buy junk.
No cuts -- all of these classic shows have at least eight minutes per hour removed.
Higher quality -- the DVDs are remastered to retail quality, sometimes from the original cut negatives (like Mission: Impossible). The broadcasts are usually from the old telecined videotapes (exception: Star Trek).
No season bias. You'll see the final seasons of Combat! and the Fugitive broadcast more often simply because they are in color.
Extras, like director and actor commentaries, interviews with actors, even episode trivia sometimes.
You can watch as many episodes as you have any time you want.

If you really enjoy these shows, rent the DVDs. Don't want for some low-budget subchannel network to air chopped up episodes of these fantastic shows.

jbpdx

12-20-11, 05:35 PM

MeTV shows better old shows than AntennaTV. Local channels used to broadcast old movies and TV shows but they decided they'd rather force infomercials down people's throat. These oldies networks are popular with boomers who prefer vintage TV to the mindless CRAP that's on the networks and cable channels. They are designed specifically to NOT be on cable, for people who are through paying for cable and satellite. I'll bet MeTV has better ratings than most cable networks.

scowl

12-20-11, 06:50 PM

MeTV shows better old shows than AntennaTV. Local channels used to broadcast old movies and TV shows but they decided they'd rather force infomercials down people's throat.
Have you seen the "ads" on Antenna TV and ThisTV? They're three minute informercials. You effectively get nine minutes of informercials for every twenty minutes of these shows you watch.

These oldies networks are popular with boomers who prefer vintage TV to the mindless CRAP that's on the networks and cable channels.
Most of these shows are the mindless crap that defined television as the idiot box. Petticoat Junction? The Beverly Hillbillies? Lost in Space? I have no problem with mindless crap as long as people don't pretend they're watching PBS.

Give me Soap and All in the Family. Oh, already got it. Thanks, Antenna TV.

They are designed specifically to NOT be on cable, for people who are through paying for cable and satellite.
Most of MeTV's viewers watch it on cable. The network completely relies on local cable carriage regulation because that's the only reason a cable company would pick it up. Many viewers think it is a cable channel.

I'll bet MeTV has better ratings than most cable networks.
It has a fraction of TVLAND's prime time ratings according to the numbers in a press release by Weigel Broadcasting which owns the Seattle and San Francisco affiliates. MeTV only reaches about half of the national television audience.

earletp

12-21-11, 04:57 PM

If these channels wanted to set-up their own independent local station(s) I'd be all for it.
It's just when they want to make their bucks by robbing bandwidth from my local HD stations that I have issues with them.

crossbeaux

12-21-11, 05:38 PM

Phantom Gremlin

12-21-11, 07:58 PM

Me too. I want HD that is HD. Just because they can subchannel doesn't mean they should.

Unfortunately (cue dumb cliches here):

that ship has sailed
that train has left the station
Elvis has left the building

I predict that, 10 years from now, these will be the "good old days". HD will keep getting worse and worse.

TalkingRat

12-22-11, 01:49 PM

We have enough room here for everything to be in HD, but I'm sure nobody would let us have what the East Coast can't have.

Konrad2

12-30-11, 12:31 PM

scowl> No cuts -- all of these classic shows have at least eight minutes
scowl> per hour removed.

Sometimes the trailing credits list characters that are missing in
action, lying on the cutting room floor.

scowl> Give me Soap and All in the Family.

_All in the Family_ is exceptionally annoying for people who don't
enjoy having Norman Lear's idea of political correctness rammed down
their throat.

Andy Griffith got it right and intentionally avoided that route. A
sitcom is supposed to be funny, leave the politics for the evening news.
Laughter is good for you.

earletp> If these channels wanted to set-up their own independent local
earletp> station(s) I'd be all for it. It's just when they want to make
earletp> their bucks by robbing bandwidth from my local HD stations that
earletp> I have issues with them.

Yes. We new a few channels with just 2 SD subchannels so that the
SD isn't compressed to death either. For the shot-on-video stuff.
Most shot-on-film material would benefit from being HD.

"this" has a lot of great movies, but it is compressed to death.
I find the compression artifacts far more annoying than the cropping.
And most of their material could benefit from being HD.

Perhaps we should lobby to get Azteca replaced with MeTV?

warnerwh

12-31-11, 06:08 AM

Could someone tell me what I need to do to get all the area channels? We recently dumped Directv and I decided to try to use a yagi FM antenna I have on our roof. We're only getting about 14 stations. Channel 6 comes and goes which is annoying my wife. The antenna is aimed toward the towers on the hills by Skyline/Burnside.

I realize an FM antenna is not ideal for UHF and do not mind buying a new antenna if it will help significantly. I'm wondering why channel 6 is intermittent when their transmitter is up by the rest of them. Also are there any channels still broadcasting in analog?

What I'd like to do is get at least 25 of the available channels. I have a friend who gets 27 with a little outdoor antenna. Now if I could get 35 or 40 that would be better.

What antenna is recommended under 60 dollars? Also would a rotator make a significant help to pick up stations down in Salem and Eugene. Any help is appreciated.

Btw we are located near 122nd and Stark.

JeffinWesternWA

12-31-11, 11:17 AM

To the poster wanting better reception. First, check your wiring, etc., that it's "good", try to avoid the longest runs. RG6 is best cable. Fewer "splits" is better. Then, get a combo UHF/VHF antenna. A FM/UHF yagi won't do it. But, we are so close to the towers, no need for an expensive setup. A "solid" combo antenna should be fiine for getting all the PDX stations. Think there are 24 english language channels and a few in other languages (not counting repeaters). Several stations (KGW, OPB, FOX) are xmitting on VHF frequency. With an antenna, bigger is usually better. Orient/reorient for what should be the weakest station, either RTV on ch 27.2/17.2 or the KGW weather on 46.1 and lock it down. Summer tree leaves may mean a reorient depending. Plenty of antennas available that one can find. Antenna web.org/tvfool.com will also pin your location and help w/ orientation. It'll help if you have got a "high spot" to mount your antenna w/ a clear view as much as possible toward the xmitter(s). Most likely KRCW ch 32.1-.3 should be your strongest signal, about 100%~, the above two (27.2/17.2) mentioned your weakest. Shouldn't be a problem. I'm just off the I205 in Camas, Lacamas Meadows area at 350 ft and a Weingard 1080P fits INSIDE my attic & does great for me ($30~ antenna). Only problem being 17.2/27.2 when weather is bad, their >6Kw signal just wont make it through with heavy rains/winds and pixels badly. All others are stable and fine. A $30~$50 antenna, some new cable, proper mount/ground and plenty of orienting should lock you in to all PDX farm stations w/o problem. If you can get 17.2/27.2 at say 60+ strength, you will be in a sweet spot. Again, those two are the "iffy" channels around here. Some get 'em, others don't depending on location/antenna. all others should be easy. Some of the "repeaters are still analog but, their digital signal should be available and better at your location. G'Luck...

As far as Eugene, I don't know of anyone getting those stations here but, if it's possible you would need the biggest/best antenna (over $100 alone), rotator, booster, etc., still doubtful IMHO ....

Konrad2

12-31-11, 01:30 PM

> Could someone tell me what I need to do to get all the area channels?

The main thing is to get a very good VHF-HI antenna and a very good
UHF antenna. Combo antennas are not as good as seperate.
The more directional, the better the signal will be. I suggest
the AntennasDirect XG91 UHF and the Winegard YA-1713 for VHF-HI.
Combine the signals with a UVSJ. Assuming you don't want any
VHF-LO stations, use a HLSJ as a high-pass filter (terminate the
LO port) to remove everything below VHF-HI (especially FM). My
VHF-HI is so strong I have to attenuate it to prevent overload.
I also have to use ferrite to knock down common-mode interferrence.
Avoid RG59 coax if possible. Quad-shield RG6 is a good choice,
and is available locally. There is better coax than RG6 but it
gets expensive fast.

If you mount the antennas above the roof, you will almost certainly
get a better signal, but the antennas and coax will be subjected to
the weather, critters, etc. If there is room, you can mount them
in your attic. That will protect them, but the signal strength
and quality will likely suffer. You may need to experiment with
location. Higher is usually better, especially if you can get them
above the trees.

> Also are there any channels still broadcasting in analog?

Yes, see tvfool.com

> Also would a rotator make a significant help to pick up stations down
> in Salem and Eugene.

Keep in mind that a rotator does not allow you to receive stations
from both directions at once. And it would be a significant project
to engineer a way to get a DVR to automagically rotate to the
direction needed. If you want stations from two directions, consider
another antenna and an A-B switch, or possibly something like the
Jointenna if the frequencies involved allow.

TalkingRat

12-31-11, 02:18 PM

Post #1 has full power stations with the frequency they're transmitting on, but I'd recommend you visit tvfool.com and rabbitears.info for more detail.

On the tvfool.com tool, enter your exact address for the best info. Rule of thumb, indoor antenna likely gives you all the green coded stations listed, and half the yellow. I wouldn't hold out hope for Eugene stations, it's pretty far, and likely blocked by obstructions. The Eugene area sees some Portland stations because there are local repeaters there, but I don't think you'll find Eugene repeaters close enough to get from Portland, and I con't ever recall anyone in Portland mentioning Eugene receptions, although a few got (or tried for) Salem (KSLM's RTV) before KWVT transmitted in Portland.

Another great place to visit for Portland station info is Trip's rabbit ears site, go to

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php

and click on the underlined Portland name (it's #24, but click on the city link, not the number).

You'll easily see what stations are off-air (X), what subchannels we get here (expand the page to see all at once), and Trip has many links to even more detail. :)

Once upon a time there were over 40 subchannels on air, but many were duplicates, or transmitting the same content. Currently on air, KPXG (ION RF22) repeats on RF42, OPB Corvallis RF07 is virtually the same as Portland's RF10, and LP stations KWVT RF49 Portland and KSLM RF27 Salem have identical content. If you get them all, it's 9 duplicates.

An outdoor antenna is ideal, but you can probably get the Portland stations with an indoor antenna. From 15 miles away, I use homemade coathanger antennas in the bedrooms, and for my main TV, a Terk HDTV in garage attic. Tuning digital is a bit different than with analog, some trial and error. VHF needs a direct aim, so my advice would be to start by finding the tower with 8/10/12. For UHF, if you have multipath, then you tweak, as often it takes an offset to get the strongest signal, which may not always be reflected on the meter. I have a couple stations with 100% lock that pixelate heavily unless they are greatly offset. But see what you get with direct aim, then tweak for the most important UHF stations, keeping an eye on how far off you can be and still keep VHF.

Not much going on with analog. I tune about 5 stations, most snowy. The one strong station is an ION repeater, on Ch 5.

warnerwh

01-01-12, 03:39 AM

Thank you guys for the info. I'm going to try an indoor antenna. We have aluminum siding which I think acts as a shield so an indoor may/probably will not work. If the indoor tv antenna doesn't work I'll put a different antenna where my FM antenna is on the roof using the same mast. Hopefully the one antenna will work for FM also.

Is there any problem using the same antenna for FM as well as VHF/UHF signals? If I could somehow mount two antennas on the same mast that would be doable but it seems like I once read where that can be a problem. If anyone knows please let me know. High quality FM reception is very important to me.

I live in a 2 story house and the antenna has an excellent view of the transmitters but you guys mention tuning to the weaker station's transmitter such as 17.2/27.2. Please tell me where that is and how you are measuring signal strength. My antenna is just pointed in the general direction of where there's a number of towers in the Sylvan hill vicinity.

JeffinWesternWA

01-01-12, 11:38 AM

Sideing/metal roofs are a problem, I tried an indoor antenna on a floating home lt 5 miles from the x mitters and no luck, outdors, the rabbit ears were fine! Go to antennaweb or tv fool websites for orientation. If your TV has a strength meter, that can tell you specifics. Mount your antenna, use a compass, cell phone/two way radios with a partner watching the tv screeen/signal meter. If not, well, I'd go with the websites compass heading as well as picture quality. Aim to get 17.2/27.2 as best as u can first, retweak, then check the other channels. 17.2/27.2 are the weakest channels but, are also at the PDX antenna ffarm with the other xmitters You can mount the FM antenna on the same mast, or use a tv/fm splitter trying the tv antenna. You might need a bigger mast using twio antennas though? Just give some separation/space betweeen antennas...shouldot be any problem with a medium size antena getting all the stations fine. G'luck!

TalkingRat

01-01-12, 07:34 PM

I live in a 2 story house and the antenna has an excellent view of the transmitters but you guys mention tuning to the weaker station's transmitter such as 17.2/27.2. Please tell me where that is and how you are measuring signal strength. My antenna is just pointed in the general direction of where there's a number of towers in the Sylvan hill vicinity.

17.2 kwvt/27.2 klsm/37.2 azteca are virtual channels transmitted by KWVT, RF49, which took over the old tower/transmitter of KPDX, on the west side of the antenna farm. It's low power 14.2kW, currently at half power last I heard.

For signal strength when I'm adjusting antenna, I use the tuner with the most variation, which for me is Mag2160A recorder. My TV meter is too optimistic, and doesn't sample often enough to catch wild signal fluctuations from multipath.

cburbs

01-01-12, 07:36 PM

2.1 is being problematic for me again......any suggestions? I rescanned and it seems to be at like 50% most of the time lately. Started earlier this month.
I will have to verify the antenna didn't move in the attic but last time I zipped tied it so it would fall over again.

JeffinWesternWA

01-01-12, 11:02 PM

KATU 2.1-.2 has been fine for me, lotsa wind has affected KVWT/RTV (last time they emailed me they stated 5.9~ kW was the power...but, when it was calm yesterday am, they pinged 60+ peaks, #'s not seen since the fall. With the wind, back to the 30's/40's and pixels/blank screen. Check the antenna! Ch 2? It's 90% +++ over here in Lacamas Meadows,,,:p

Konrad2

01-02-12, 02:41 PM

An indoor antenna behind aluminum siding? Good luck with that.
Yes, aluminum siding will block/shield RF signals, especially UHF.

>> Is there any problem using the same antenna for FM as well as VHF/UHF
>> signals?

Seperate antennas optimised for the various frequencies will give
you a better signal, and thus better, more reliable reception.

>> If I could somehow mount two antennas on the same mast that would be
>> doable but it seems like I once read where that can be a problem.

You can have multiple antennas on the same mast. You need to
mount them far enough apart so that they don't interfere with
each other, and of course the mast has to be strong enough to
handle the weight and wind load. Put the UHF antenna on top,
the VHF-HI antenna in the middle, and the FM antenna on the bottom.

[ RF 49 RetroTV ]
> It's low power 14.2kW, currently at half power last I heard.

Their signal strength went up 2-3 months ago. so they might be back
up to full power? I even got a signal strength reading of 100%
and signal quality of 90% yesterday. Sadly that doesn't mean the
recording was perfect. I have lots of perfect recordings with
lower numbers from the tuner, so there is something else going on.
Perhaps some aspect of signal quality that doesn't show up on the
tuner's quality meter? Also, the readings are at one point in time,
and not necessarily the worst case.

A good measurement is to make a recording and run it through ffmpeg
and see if it complains. Even that method isn't foolproof as
the stations don't always send out a correct datastream.

Lots of good info about antennas, reception, and such at
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/

Also see the antenna thread at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623

jbpdx

01-02-12, 06:57 PM

17/27/37 RetroTV still no signal in Aloha area. Doubt there will ever be. I recently asked them when they were going to be back at "full power." No reply. Why don't they just tell the truth? They could have sent that transmitter to the moon for "repairs" and it would have been back by now.

Phantom Gremlin

01-02-12, 10:31 PM

An indoor antenna behind aluminum siding? Good luck with that.
Yes, aluminum siding will block/shield RF signals, especially UHF.

Apropos of nothing, I was quite impressed when a pager I owned (about a decade ago) had no problems going off even if placed inside a refrigerator. Too bad that broadcast TV isn't quite as robust. :)

TalkingRat

01-03-12, 11:20 AM

Apropos of nothing, I was quite impressed when a pager I owned (about a decade ago) had no problems going off even if placed inside a refrigerator. Too bad that broadcast TV isn't quite as robust. :)

Actually, I've found DTV to be pretty robust, if you are willing to experiment with multipath signals. Since that's all I have, I'm in the habit of looking in the least likely of places, and being pleasantly surprised by where the best signal is. There is enormous variation in tuners and antennas. It's an adventure to see what works, and I have found sweet spots for multipath often take advantage of obstructions, perhaps equalizing the timing of signals that otherwise arriving at widely different times. Often the best signal involves going through some kind of obstruction, like fireplace, metal doors, miniblinds, multiple walls, or a significantly mis-aimed antenna. Analog antenna setup was straightforward, but in exchange for digital clarity, and not requiring outdoor installation, whatever works. The refrigerator, however, is one location I've avoided. ;)

Universal Sports was still there this morning, but I expect we'll lose it soon?

Konrad2

01-03-12, 12:13 PM

>> An indoor antenna behind aluminum siding? Good luck with that.
>> Yes, aluminum siding will block/shield RF signals, especially UHF.
>
> Apropos of nothing, I was quite impressed when a pager I owned
> (about a decade ago) had no problems going off even if placed
> inside a refrigerator. Too bad that broadcast TV isn't quite as robust.

That's a cool pager. :-)

Perhaps attenuate would be a more accurate term than block/shield.
The amount of attenuation depends on the thickness of the metal,
and the frequency of the signal. And holes (windows, fridge door gaskets,
etc.) UHF gets attenuated a lot more than VHF. NTSC degraded gracefully,
but 8VSB/ATSC is way too fragile and easily falls off the digital cliff.
Digital should be *more* robust than analog, it has error correction bits,
but there are too many errors and not enough correction bits.

JeffinWesternWA

01-05-12, 10:56 PM

Tried emailing info@kwvtsalem.com but, email failed as "mailbox full". Was trying to get a 17.2/27.2 xmitter status update. DID notice better reception/signal tonight low 60's steady vice normal of low 50's and 20% less in weather), much like in summer, 10-15% improved. Probably calm, damp weather related. Anybody in the know? Think KWVT/RTV is still at reduced 5.9kW vice the ERP of 14.9 they are supposed to be. Wonder if the xmitter ever got fixed or the money was too much? Not answering emails and no FB updates tells me they are barely making it....

warnerwh

01-07-12, 07:48 PM

Konrad2

01-07-12, 11:28 PM

JeffinWesternWA

01-08-12, 12:44 PM

Ken says RF49 (RetroTV) installed the rebuilt full power
transmitter on 2011-12-28. My logs show an increase in
signal strength, but a decrease in signal quality, resulting
in worse actual reception. I'm discussing the issue with Ken.

Does anyone know what make & model transmitter the various
Portland stations have? I'm especially interested in RF33 as
they have some symptoms in common with RF49 dispite the differences
in power level and frequency.

BUT, Did the power go up to the full amount alloted? I'm seeing maybe a 10-20% increase in strength but again, the calm, foggy days often have that effect anyway. I think they DID increase it but, I/m wondering if there are adjustments and perhaps tweaks to still be made? And, maybe it's not up to the 15kW~ yet? Thinkin out loud....

Any word on what 32.3 is gonna be?

JeffinWesternWA

01-08-12, 12:48 PM

Thank you guys again for all the help. I'm getting very few channels on our main tv with the FM antenna. On our bedroom tv I just put in a d/a converter and am getting 27 channels. I definitely have to get up on the roof to add a tv antenna. I'll be buying a uhf antenna for digital tv only. Any recommendations? I'm a bit confused due to the fact there's so many different designs which doesn't make sense to me.

Video quality is ok on the bedroom tv but we're getting a buzz which I believe is a ground loop. TV and d/a are plugged into the same outlet. Only other thing plugged in is the rabbit ears to the d/a and a cable to the tv. I'm stumped if anyone has any idea I'd sure appreciate it. Thanks

Remember 8, 10 and 12 channels are back to actual VHF broadcast. So getting a "combination" antenna would be an advantage. Shouldn't be much problem. My Weinghard 1080p is really a UHF antenna that is advertised as a combination. Those stations are high power anyway so it works fine. The small size makes it work well in the attic and the UHF performance is quite good. It seems to excel at channel separation and reading the many comments of those who own it, it performs better than the mediocore specs.

warnerwh

01-08-12, 02:00 PM

Jeff: I'm getting a good picture on all channels. The buzzing coming through the speakers is too loud to be able to watch tv. I can't find a F type to F type ground loop isolator in town so am not sure what to do from here.

ericgarvin

01-08-12, 02:25 PM

Check the coax terminations also. I have in the past had bad reception and reterminating the coax helped.

warnerwh

01-08-12, 04:00 PM

Update: Went to Target and bought a different d/a box and all is well. Thank you guys.

Konrad2

01-08-12, 06:23 PM

> BUT, Did the power go up to the full amount alloted? I'm seeing maybe a
> 10-20% increase in strength but again, the calm, foggy days often have
> that effect anyway. I think they DID increase it but, I/m wondering if
> there are adjustments and perhaps tweaks to still be made? And, maybe
> it's not up to the 15kW~ yet? Thinkin out loud....

"yes we are now at full power"
Ken Lewetag - General Manager/co-owner

Looking at a few days before and after the switch, it went up about
3 dB, which is twice the power, as expected. The hour-to-hour,
day-to-day variation was 2.5 dB and that's just over a few days.
The variation is probably at least 3 dB over a year.

Note that many tuners do not provide a real signal strength number,
even if they call it that. If the tuner only provides one number,
it is probably some version of signal quality.

There are antennas that provide several dB more gain, and less
multipath and interference, than your 1080p.

jbpdx

01-08-12, 11:37 PM

Currently visiting in Kansas City. They have all the sub-channel networks here except RetroTV. Watching MeTV for the first time and it's much better than AntennaTV. Here they get: ThisTV, MeTV, AntennaTV, Living Well, ActionWeather (24 hour local), BounceTV, Create (yes it still exists despite OPB dropping it.) Every local station has a sub-channel. Plus all 3 Ion channels. They don't have a channel like KGW 24/7 however.

warnerwh

01-09-12, 10:07 PM

Is there a place to get a channel guide of all of the available channels?

rdvegas

01-11-12, 09:58 AM

Is there a place to get a channel guide of all of the available channels?

www.tvfool.com will let you know what channels are available for reception at your location.

www.titantv.com will provide a program guide for most, if not all, stations in your area.

zyland

01-11-12, 10:08 AM

www.tvfool.com will let you know what channels are available for reception at your location.

www.titantv.com will provide a program guide for most, if not all, stations in your area.

I like http://www.silicondust.com/support/channels/ (SiliconDust) It only lists channels that someone actually received.

zyland

01-11-12, 10:30 AM

Sort of a concerning remark for this kind of forum from Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito, "Broadcast TV is living on borrowed time. It is not going to be long before it goes the way of vinyl records and 8-track tapes." Part of the discussion of Tuesday's Supreme Court case on "Broadcast decency"

Of course, vinyl records and 8-track tapes did not die by legislative fiat but by market forces. Yes, Yes, I know "vinyl records are not dead..."

JeffinWesternWA

01-11-12, 11:48 AM

Do we havee anyideas or rather "information" on what programming will be on 32.3 now that Universal Sports is gone?:confused:

Any "other" secondary channels being planned by any stations? (KOIN doesn't have any as example...):(

Inquiring minds.......;)

thanx...:D

jbpdx

01-15-12, 01:40 PM

It won't be MeTV. KRCW is owned by Tribune, a competitor of Weigel. They could add AccuWeather or Living Well networks.

jbpdx

01-15-12, 01:43 PM

Alito is an idiot. Thomas should be impeached.

cburbs

01-16-12, 10:01 PM

I am still only getting like 60% signal on 2.1. I tried changing/moving the antenna around in the attic but can't get higher than that - any other thoughts suggestions. I am using a Winegard HD-1080 2-Bay Bowtie UHF and High Band VHF TV Antenna (HD-1080). I am willing to try out another antenna but not sure which direction to go.

JeffinWesternWA

01-16-12, 10:31 PM

what are your readings for other channels? 2.1.2 is UHF, ....how is KCRW (32) for example? I get 100% peak hits 80% of time on my W1080. My weakest RTV 27.2 is normally low 60's to peak of 70 in perfect weather to pixels and 40's/50's in high wind/w precip...yours?

cburbs

01-17-12, 11:03 AM

JeffinWesternWA

01-17-12, 11:47 AM

Just did a quick reading -
2.1 - 74 this morning
6.1 - 72
8.1 - 59 this one went down since I adjusted the antenna yesterday
10.1 - 70
12.1 - 89
22.1 - 96
22.3 - 95
32.1 - 62
42.1 - 69
42.3 - 69
49.1 - 89

These are the main stations used in our household.

Interesting, my antenna is same but, indoor/attic mounted about 16 miles from x mitter "thru" some hills and the airport. I'm west of the farm, Your #'s are weaker overall, especially the vhf (w/ exception of Fox 12). Wonder how 17.2/27.2 which are the lowest power/quality read at your place? And 46.1 the radar which is LP? Your pdx 49.1 is strong, mine is maybe 80~ ish. .... I'd guess if cable/connections/orientation don't cure it, a bigger/higher gain antenna is in order, ....hopefully you don't have to go to seperate VHF/UHF and can find one that is a good combo. The W1080 has great reviews and seems to excel at channel separation and UHF (see the reviews on many sites) for it's compact size, but, the VHF seems modest. Bigger antenna?

Konrad2

01-17-12, 12:03 PM

> I am still only getting like 60% signal on 2.1. I tried changing/moving
> the antenna around in the attic but can't get higher than that - any
> other thoughts suggestions. I am using a Winegard HD-1080 2-Bay Bowtie
> UHF and High Band VHF TV Antenna (HD-1080). I am willing to try out
> another antenna but not sure which direction to go.

The 1080 is pretty wimpy, you can do a lot better.

Antennas with good reputations that are worth considering:
VHF-HI:
Antennacraft Y10-7-13
Weingard YA-1713 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html
UHF:
AntennasDirect DB8 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB8.html
AntennasDirect XG91 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html
Channel Master 4228 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html
Weingard PR-8800 http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w8800.html

Some of these have changed names and/or designs. I think the PR-8800
is called something else now, and the 4228 was redesigned somewhat.

I have the Weingard PR-8800 (UHF) and YA-1713 (VHF-HI) in my
attic, "looking" through a wood clapboard gable.

KATU comes in signal strength = 100% signal quality = 90% all packets
correct after FEC, no decode errors

RF49 (RetroTV) is coming in signal strength = 97-100% signal quality = 75-80%
but sometimes has packets that fail FEC and as a result has decode errors.
Their full strength transmitter is actually putting out a poorer quality
signal than the temp 1/2 power transmitter was. :-(

I got the 8800 because it has the best specs for stations in the high 20s
low 30s which I was having the most trouble with at the time. Having
learned a bit since then, I now recommend the XG91, as it should perform
even better for the higher frequency stations like KATU and RetroTV.
The YA-1713 does a great job, the Y10-7-13 should be similar.

If you want to keep the new antenna in the attic, be sure and measure
the space available and make sure your chosen antenna will fit.

JeffinWesternWA

01-17-12, 07:14 PM

what about a good "compact" antenna, maybe w/o a "boom" that is decent for suburban VHF AND UHF?...not to heavy for outdoor mount, could fit in a tight attic space?

I find good reception on all the channels but modest winds DO effect 17.2/27.2 signal strength from the high 60's to the 30's/40's/50's on my toshiba TV signal meter, and heavy winds/heavy rains make theses two stations pixel/break up...and occasionally heavy winds cause some signal degredation on other channels but, don't effect the picture...

I'm not near any trees/onstructions bbut, the antenna does look "through" a couple peaks of my roof, the corner of my neighbors perhaps, the PDX airport and to the farm. I'm at 350+ ft elevation btw too.....

Konrad2

01-18-12, 03:06 PM

> what about a good "compact" antenna

You already have a compact antenna and it isn't getting the job done.

Better reception means more directional.
More directional means larger.

> maybe w/o a "boom" that is decent

As far as I know, all decent VHF-HI antennas have a boom.
I once did the math to calculate how large a VHF-HI version of
the 8 bay 8800 would be. It was so huge that I instantly gave
up that idea. If you want VHF-LO and/or FM even larger.

> not to heavy for outdoor mount

Huh? Get one made of aluminum and they weigh almost nothing.

> could fit in a tight attic space?

Drill the stinking hole already. It only takes a few seconds.
This is the time of year to work in the attic, it won't
be 130 degrees.

> heavy winds

Trees in the path? Any idea how high your antenna would have to be
to be above them? 10 feet above them is the usual recommendation.

I've looked at data from pdx and Hilsburo airports and it
doesn't correlate with reception problems. But wind can
be a highly localized variable. Anyone know of sources of
wind data closer to the towers?

jbpdx

01-22-12, 01:46 PM

I'm getting 27.2 to come in again. Using rabbit ears. But it took a lot of moving it around, rescanning...

cburbs

01-27-12, 05:31 PM

Still trying to fix this - I had to go up there again as 2.1 went down to 50% again. Anyways right now I have it at the highest peak in the attic aimed between my a/b locations.

The problem is the stations on B dont' get more than a 10% connection as of right now.

Notes - From antennaweb.org

A: 8.1, 10.1, 12.1, 16, 17.1, 22.1, 36.1, 42.1, 49.1
B: 2.1, 6.1, 24.1, 32.1
C: 49.1

UHF/VHF Call Channel Network Compass Miles RF Channel
uhf K18EL-D 49.1 MNT 191° 14.3 18
uhf KORS-CD 16 IND 84° 5.2 16
uhf KPXG-LD 42.1 ION 84° 5.2 42
uhf KPXG-DT 22.1 ION 84° 5.2 22
uhf KWVT-LD 17.1 A1 85° 4.9 16
uhf KPDX-DT 49.1 MNT 85° 5.1 30
uhf KEVE-LD 36.1 TBN 86° 5.3 36
uhf KRCW-DT 32.1 CW 87° 5.9 33
uhf KOIN-DT 6.1 CBS 87° 5.9 40
uhf KNMT-DT 24.1 TBN 87° 5.9 45
uhf KATU-DT 2.1 ABC 88° 5.8 43

vhf KGW-DT 8.1 NBC 84° 5.2 8
vhf KOPB-DT 10.1 PBS 84° 5.2 10
vhf KPTV-DT 12.1 FOX 85° 5.1 12

cburbs

01-27-12, 05:44 PM

Konrad2

01-28-12, 12:23 PM

> Would want only one

For best results, you'll need a UHF and a VHF-HI.

> and if possible something to buy local so
> I don't have to worry about returning it....anything good from
> frys/radioshack?

Radioshack has a terrible reputation for antennas (and amps).

Frys used to carry some ChannelMaster stuff, haven't been there
recently. Frys might have the new version of the CM 4228, but
do your research first, I've seen some opinions that it doesn't
perform as well as the old one.

Some mail order places with good reputations:
http://www.solidsignal.com
http://www.starkelectronic.com
http://www.summitsource.com
http://www.warrenelectronics.com

cburbs

01-28-12, 01:15 PM

Looks like Frys has a few to choose from -
CM-2020
CM-2018
CM 4228HD

Winegard 7694P
Winegard HD-7697P

Phantom Gremlin

01-30-12, 09:04 PM

Frys might have the new version of the CM 4228, but do your research first, I've seen some opinions that it doesn't perform as well as the old one.

Here's a scathing review (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html) of the 4228HD. I'm no antenna expert, so I have no idea if the guy is right, or if the problems have been fixed since the review.

Yet another reason to buy from somewhere that has a convenient return policy.

jbpdx

02-01-12, 11:21 PM

MeTV update: Toledo station WTOL added MeTV so it's viewable now in Detroit. Miami adding it in April. That leaves Portland and Washington DC as the only top 25 TV markets without the network.

HTBruceM

02-05-12, 01:00 PM

Rant... what sense does this make?

Today, the local KPTV Fox 12 is running the corporate Fox News Sunday program. The original source is obviously 720P 16:9 HD - you can just make out the HD logo overlay! But KPTV converts the feed to standard definition, chops it to 4:3, then upconverts it back to 720P over the HD local channel with the sidebar "Fox12" overlay. Bitrate is 1.4Mbps.

Then along come some of the commercials in full HD.

Wow.

Somebody just screwed up? Or is this what passes for top notch professional broadcast practice nowadays?

scowl

02-05-12, 01:28 PM

If the HD commercials were from the network then Fox was doing this.

How did they reduce their bit rate to 1.4 mbps?

cburbs

02-05-12, 02:06 PM

So I am thinking of trying one of these from Frys - any suggestion on which one -
Looks like Frys has a few to choose from -
CM-2020
CM-2018
CM 4228HD

Winegard 7694P
Winegard HD-7697P

I know someone mentioned to look for (HI-VHF/UHF Series Antenna) and the (HD7694P) has that. Also the CM-2020 digital HDTV mentions Hi-VHF.

cburbs

02-08-12, 02:53 PM

So I had to return some stuff at Frys and bought the Winegard HD-7697P and here are my results - Signal on 2.1 improved to 72.

Channel/Old Antenna/New Antenna
2.1 62 72
6.1 82 82
8.1 91 100
10.1 80 94
12.1 84 100
22.1 91 94
22.2 96 97
22.3 96 98
32.1 80 81
42.1 60 76
42.2 61 76
42.3 61 75
49.1 97 92

JeffinWesternWA

02-08-12, 07:33 PM

I wonder WHY you are in such a bad spot for KATU?? How about RTV 27.2, whats your signal for that station (and 17.1) as well as 46.1 (KGWZ) which is low power weather radar...? How far are you from the towers? Indoor (Attic) or outdoor mounted?

cburbs

02-08-12, 09:20 PM

17.1/27.2 nothing and 46.1 60peak this is on my Tivo setup downstairs. I think the TV upstairs was up/down on 27.2 but it was coming in with this new antenna. I am in the Bethany area. I live on a sloped street in the middle section which may come into play. 2.1 for me seem to have gotten worse after they had the problem a while back. So 70% is better but I was hoping for 80s.
As you can see there was improvement all the way around for the lower channels.

Did you mean 17.2? My TV upstairs 17.2 and 27.2 come in at 55 peak where it had nothing/minimial before with the old antenna.

Antenna is mounted in the Attic as we live in a rental. I had tried the old antenna outside when we first moved in but it was horrid. The last place which is about a mile away everything was fine. 5-6 miles away from the towers.

It says I should be able to use a Small Multidirectional Antenna which would be some of these - http://www.solidsignal.com/cview_antennas.asp?mc=03&d=over-the-air-tv-antennas-supplies&c=TV%20Antennas&cea=SM

BitJumper

02-09-12, 12:32 AM

I wanted to share some good news on a local antenna selection. For purely aesthetic and ease-of-install reasons I am trying to use a compact antenna on the side of the house.

I live in Camas, WA and shoot through an adjacent 5-acre woods. No way over or around that. I had been using an HD-1080 for a year. The HD-1080 was solid until a month or so ago when 12.1 started constantly breaking up on a Tivo Premier (an older Tivo HD stayed good). I also recently bought a $100 cheap small TV which broke up lightly on 2.1, 6.1, and 12.1.

Switched in a CM2016 (sitting indoors right now though a window), feeding into my house wiring without an amplifier, and all stations are now solid on all three TVs in the house. Everyone in the family is happier now.

Erik

Mitch P.

02-09-12, 01:10 AM

cburbs

02-09-12, 09:06 AM

Interesting I may try that one out as well as it is $25 cheaper and if it does the same as the HD7694P why not.

JeffinWesternWA

02-09-12, 11:20 AM

I too (see above posts) am in Camas but, closer to Far East Vancouver, I'm in Lacamas Meadows @ 350 ft elevation but, my W1080 looks through MY attic peaks, partially a neighbors roof, then and "up over" the Meadows and a hill to about 15-16 miles to the tower. I'm surprised my weak 17.2 reception typical (in calm weather - like fog) can peak @ 70, though 60 is more normal, it was unwacthable in the heavy sustained winds and very heavy downpours of last weekend. PEaks were down to 50'ish w/ pixeling. My 46.1 Always stays at 60 or better. Intersting results we have in Camas from roughly same locations on compass...though altitude and direction do vary somewhat). Individual location seems so important w/ digital reception. Wasn't so with analog...

Lost Dog

02-09-12, 10:09 PM

Wow.... I think half of Camas (including me) are members of this thread...

Paul Curtis

02-14-12, 04:52 PM

Alanp

02-14-12, 04:56 PM

It is interesting how as more and more people have HD sets, the local channels are producing more and more poor technical quality broadcasts.

And don't get me started about the audio compression.

scowl

02-14-12, 06:13 PM

I wanna know why KATU persistently transmits This Week as a butt-ugly pillarboxed upconversion infested with interlace twitter, even though it's produced in 720p. Are all of their HD feeds peoccupied with sports uplinks or something?
Apparently the old "flip the switch" problem still exists because they're airing ABC's SD feed. I bet they don't get any complaints about This Week not being in HD.

Remember when we'd get the first minute of Lost in SD after every commercial break before a dozen of us would call and complain?

scowl

02-14-12, 06:23 PM

It is interesting how as more and more people have HD sets, the local channels are producing more and more poor technical quality broadcasts.
I haven't noticed. There is more HD than ever. Syndicated programs in HD. Local news in HD. KOIN-HD has never looked better. There are no problem with switching between SD and HD like there used to be although KPTV should fix the macroblock splatter when they cut in to promote their local news.

The next bit stealer will be mobile-DTV. KATU, KOIN, KGW and KPTV are all broadcasting it now. I haven't checked how much bandwidth it's stealing but it needs 1-7 mbps.

And don't get me started about the audio compression.
This I never understood. They were all 448 kbps for years, then all of them except KPTV (who gets their audio stream from Fox) dropped them down to 384 kbps making them sound inferior to a DVD.

jbpdx

02-14-12, 08:29 PM

I wonder if this is what WatchTV was hoping to use for its now-silent Portland TV stations?

F.C.C. Bars the Use of Airwaves for a Broadband Plan

(New York Times) WASHINGTON — A proposed wireless broadband network that would provide voice and Internet service using airwaves once reserved for satellite-telephone transmissions should be shelved because it interferes with GPS technology, the Federal Communications Commission said Tuesday.

JeffinWesternWA

03-11-12, 12:11 PM

I'm still amazed: a calm Saturday nets me a peak of 70 (sometimes slighty more) and steady-low mid 60's on channels 17.2/27.2 but, the wind, hard rains of Sunday drop it to unwatchable (pixeling, etc.,) for maybe a peak of 50 but, only low-mid 40's steady signal strenght on my Toshiba Regza. The power increase they just had helped overall but, 15 miles~ away from the towers, WEATHER still is THE factor for those (the only affected, 46.1 for example is fine) stations.

Any info on 32.3??

jbpdx

03-11-12, 03:03 PM

scowl

03-11-12, 03:12 PM

Meanwhile, still no MeTV in Portland. KPDX 49.2 is the most likely home, so who at KPTV/Meredith is blocking it and why?
Is it possible that they're choosing to broadcast original high definition programming in the highest quality instead of degrading it with a subchannel that airs a bunch of old shows in standard definition that no one cares about?

crossbeaux

03-11-12, 03:24 PM

Is it possible that they're choosing to broadcast original high definition programming in the highest quality instead of degrading it with a subchannel that airs a bunch of old shows in standard definition that no one cares about?
Thanks. I had a good laugh at that one.

jbpdx

03-11-12, 04:35 PM

Apparently stations in 23 of the top 25 TV markets (132 affiliates so far nationally) think it's worth it because they have added the network. The network KPTV can dump is MyNetworkTV, which shows nothing but garbage. Even if they kept My and added MeTV on 49.2 who cares if the quality is degraded?

crossbeaux

03-11-12, 11:33 PM

jbpdx

03-12-12, 01:17 PM

We who want high quality HDTV care.

Then I guess you have an issue with KATU, KGW, KRCW, KOPB, and the local Ion channel. Good luck getting them to drop their subs.

crossbeaux

03-12-12, 02:14 PM

Then I guess you have an issue with KATU, KGW, KRCW, KOPB, and the local Ion channel. Good luck getting them to drop their subs.

You're right. I do.

Konrad2

03-12-12, 05:14 PM

> Can't KWVT just apply to the FCC to boost their Portland transmitter?
> A small increase would solve it.

They doubled the transmitter power on 2011-12-28, but the quality of
the signal went down, so reception is actually worse despite the
increased power. :-(

I doubt that they need to apply to the FCC to increase the quality
of their signal.

Question is what is wrong with their transmitter?

Konrad2

03-12-12, 05:47 PM

jbpdx> Then I guess you have an issue with KATU, KGW, KRCW, KOPB, and the
jbpdx> local Ion channel. Good luck getting them to drop their subs.

KATU should drop the ABC sub and give "this" enough bits to avoid the
massive compression artifacts.

KGW should drop the minor subs.

KRCW should drop whatever they're calling the main sub this week and give
"antennatv" enough bits. And fix *their* reception problem from the network.
(and fix the signal quality problem)

KOPB needs at least two full channels, probably 3. (2 channels with HD,
the third with 2 SD subs plus the FM one) And put the low resolution
cartoons on SD and the stuff with detail on HD.

Ion haven't had much worthwhile lately, maybe give their channel to OPB.

Azteca is another sub that can be dropped. The KWVT sub doesn't show
up in the schedule, so it might as well not exist. Drop it too, and
just have 2 SD subs with RTV and the MeTV that everyone is wanting.
(and fix the signal quality problem!)

TalkingRat

03-12-12, 06:05 PM

Can't KWVT just apply to the FCC to boost their Portland transmitter? A small increase would solve it.

Meanwhile, still no MeTV in Portland. KPDX 49.2 is the most likely home, so who at KPTV/Meredith is blocking it and why?

KWVT is a low power station, so it's limited to 15kW, and they're already at 14.2kW. KWVT is using KPDX's old transmitter, and I lost that station after the lightning zap -- and KPDX at half power was about 20 times stronger than an LP. I get other 15 kW LPs, but I think that particular transmitter got fried.

JeffinWesternWA

03-12-12, 09:03 PM

I get 46.1 beautifully, isn't that a 15kW or slightly less power station? Thought the old 49.1 x mitter was finally "fixed" and the recent power increase (from about 6kW to 14.2 kW) on KWVT/RTV was a result of that repaired xmitter being installed. I have old emails and some Facebook notes of the KWVt/RTV folks mentioning just that?? Yet it doesn;t seem to perfrom well....

OPB is strange having cartoons on .1 and shows that are HD on .2, anybody emailed them to ask WHY?

I thought THE (one of several) advantages of DTV WAS the sub channel capability?

While the picture quality is great, so many folks who used to get analog reception quite well but, not well enough for DTV find themselves now paying for TV that was free!

TalkingRat

03-13-12, 11:12 AM

I don't know anybody who went from analog OTA to payTV, but I know a few who went the other way. When there's no LOS, digital is a hassle, but well worth the effort. My analog reception had '13 ghosts' or more, and no LPs worth watching.

Based on OPB's Plus programming strategy (Post #8287), the SD channel (Plus) took over what was run as 'Create' (global news and performing arts/crafts/cooking) and they also shifted more OPB repeats to Plus, freeing OPB for first run and popular shows. A few times I've seen Plus running something better shown in HD while OPB ran a program that didn't demand HD, but I think that was a choice of content, putting the popular show on the primary channel. When Downton Abbey ran, I noticed that Plus didn't get all the repeats, there were multiple chances for HD.

JeffinWesternWA

03-13-12, 12:31 PM

My parents and several folks in eastern Maine were one example of a few I know of,...For years they used to get (OTA) ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS all decently about 25-70 miles from Bangor, after DTV switch, only one or two channels max, that meant the entire town had to "buy" TV instead of getting free DTV. Folks tried but, no antenna could do the job....

crossbeaux

03-13-12, 01:22 PM

I did some volunteering with a seniors organization during the time of the digital transition, specifically to help answer questions from people who called in with problems. I heard several instances of people who used to receive the analog channels just fine, but who couldn't receive some of the digital ones, despite trying different antennas. I don't know what they ended up doing, but we all had to throw up our hands and admit we couldn't solve their reception issues.

jbpdx

03-13-12, 05:21 PM

Retro is off the air right now (?) Azteca is on so it can't be the transmitter...

earletp

03-13-12, 06:52 PM

Must have been a short outage since I fired up the tuner on my PC an hour ago when I first saw your post and RetroTV has been fine.

BitJumper

03-17-12, 05:19 PM

My saga in getting good OTA reception here in Camas continued and I thought I'd share more successes.

I live at some elevation in Camas. My struggles come from an adjacent 5-acre woods next door that are thick enough to prevent me from seeing the transmitter lights. The trees in these woods are very thick and numerous.

I originally had success with the HD-1080 mounted on the side of my house receiving on a Tivo HD and a Sharp 32" TV. This was solid for quite awhile. After purchasing a Tivo Premier and a cheap little kitchen TV, bad reception occurred with both of those on 12.1, 2.1, and 6.1.

Reception improved radically by switching to a CM-2016 (still on the side of the house). Alas, after a couple of good weeks, 6.1 started becoming temperamental on the Tivo Premier and cheap kitchen TV again.

Since I had the two antennas, I played around with combining them. I understand EM wave theory and know how joining waves has all sorts of interference issues. But I had to try. I was getting desperate. I combined these with an antenna splitter in reverse. On my first try I saw incredible improvement on all channels. Everything jumped 10 points. All channels on all receivers were receiving perfectly! I was exstatic!

Alas, when I did my permanent installation a couple weeks later I lost 6.1 completely. The main difference was cable lengths. I looked up what wave lengths we're dealing with, about 2'. This is good as it gave me the idea that short changes in cable lengths could have a huge effect.

I cut myself a few small cable lengths (1', 6", and 3") and experimented adding various short lengths to one antenna and the other. Surprisingly, simply adding 3" dramatically improved matters. Although some of my 98s dropped to 87s. My disasterous 50s levels increased to 70'ish. I again found a good happy medium such that all channels were high enough to be received perfectly by all receivers in the house.

I completed my permanent installation last week and now finally, hopefully, have our five TV receivers forever happily receiving the PDX stations. BTW, we're only interested in the main networks (2, 6, 8, 10, 12, 32, 22/42, and 49), so I didn't measure or tweak for others.

Erik