Who knew this was going to be such a pain. . .

I got a Channel Master 3010, hooked it up, and nothing. Eventually, I got some intermitent video, but the video was like before, just blips. I even took it outside (had about 30' of coax cable), but the signal actually got weaker.

Interestingly, when I hooked the antenna up to my regular tuner I was able to get all teh VHF channels, without even trying. But, when I turned it to UHF channels , nothing but static.

I'm confused, I thought the UHF was easier to tune that the VHF? Would any of this be symptomatic of a bad DTV tuner (got the SIR-T150 off ebay)? Should I just relax and trust that I'll get an okay signal once I get this thing up on my roof (according to antennaweb it should be more than big enough)?

Originally posted by sladewatts
Interestingly, when I hooked the antenna up to my regular tuner I was able to get all teh VHF channels, without even trying. But, when I turned it to UHF channels , nothing but static.

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but are you sure you have your analog tuner set to broadcast instead of cable? There are a number of strong UHF stations in the area, and it seems very strange you can get VHF but only static on UHF. There should be some kind of image. Still doesn't help your digital reception problems of course, but one step at a time....

Slade, I don't recall you saying what your location is like. Are you down in a hole? Behind a ridge? From OC you should have no problems getting signal unless there are obstacles.

ron

I don't think you'll have a lot of room for antenna misalignment from Oregon City. All the Portland stations (the important ones anyway) will be coming at you in one thin direction. You'll have to adjust a highly directional antenna very slowly and carefully. This is especially critical with DTV because a weak signal doesn't give a snowy fuzzy picture to guide you -- it's all or nothing -- and some tuners will take a second or two to lock on to a good signal. This may explain why you're getting occasional blips of video.

thanks for the advice scowl. I'll work on that. How much of a difference is getting up on my roof going to make? It would certainly be much easier to figure this out while in the theater room, if possible.

I am on top of a hill in Oregon City (near the community college) with a fairly clear shot towards the towers--which is why I'm so perplexed. I would've thought I could easily get a signal from my location.

Hey Slade,

I know this comes from the patently-obvious department, but since this happened to me, I thought it was worth mentioning.

I had a bad cable that gave me decent VHF reception. UHF (analog) wasn't very good, but it never has been. So when I was showing highly-intermittent video and a weak signal, I was thinking that I was going to have to start investigating antenna types and placement.

Well, on a whim I decided to try swaping some cables. Low-and-behold, I found that I got a good picture with another cable coming off the splitter.

When I took the suspect cable off, it showed good continuity on the shield and core connectors. Then I decided to check for cross connect - and it turns out the core and shield were shorted. This was a molded cable too - not one of my home-brewed ones.

OK - short reply would be: double-check your cables. They can fail in weird ways.

Originally posted by sladewatts
I got a Channel Master 3010, hooked it up, and nothing.
I also got the 3010 when I first got my tuner. I wanted to get a Channelmaster UHF antenna but that's all that Fry's had. It didn't work very well; all channels came in weak but I'm only 8 miles from the towers. The smaller Silver Sensor got MUCH better reception that the 3010! What a horrible antenna that 3010 is.

I'm confused, I thought the UHF was easier to tune that the VHF? Would any of this be symptomatic of a bad DTV tuner (got the SIR-T150 off ebay)? Should I just relax and trust that I'll get an okay signal once I get this thing up on my roof (according to antennaweb it should be more than big enough)? It could be the tuner, but I imagine its still your antenna. The Silver Sensor was a long shot since you're further away (but certainly worth a shot before buying an outdoor antenna).

Check out some of the antenna comparisons here (http://www.projectorexpert.com/). The 3010 gave those awful Terk things some stiff competition for last place, even though some of those antennas are indoor antennas (including the Silver Sensor)! Generally UHF-only antennas will work better than UHF/VHF, and antennas that don't really look like antennas (more like space ships) are bad.

Slade,

I'm no expert, but I've been there and been frustrated, and so I offer my opinion based on my experience and what I've learned from others, for what it's worth.

The 3010 is a multidirectional antenna. I think Antennaweb.org is a great source of info on the channels and direction of towers, but even if that sites indicates you only need a multidirectional antenna, you still may need a directional antenna. Multidirectional antennas are extremely susceptible to multipathing which can really wreak havoc on your receiver's ability to piece the digital data back together.

I would definitely try a directional antenna which will reduce the multipathing.

I have a Channel Master 3016, which is a VHF/UHF medium directional antenna, which I picked up at Loew's. I wanted a VHF/UHF because I wanted to get the VHF analog channels as well as the digital channels. But a lot of people have had success with the Yagi or 4 bay or 8 bay bow tie UHF antennas. You may want to surf over to channelmaster.com.

One other thing is that even after I had a good antenna, I still was having problems until I installed a 10db attenuator, apparantly the signal was too strong. Of course I'm really close to the towers.

I know of people picking up the portland digital stations in Salem, so don't give up, you should be able to pick up those stations in Oregon City. I think you just need to find the right antenna for your situation.

Good Luck,

Don

OK, I thought I had this antenna thing licked. Got great reception all Friday night on all major network feeds OTA with my Silver Sensor all the way through Jay Leno. Saturday, I was totally enthralled by the CBS/KOIN-DT broadcast of the Miss. St./LSU game while constantly switching to the Civil War on KATU-DT and/or NBC/KGW-DT coverage of the Pres. Cup golf. Today I got perfect reception of both the golf and CBS's Raiders/KC HD game. I also checked out OPB, WB and FOX early this evening - all good. After the ESPN football game, I tuned in KATU and watched the last 1/2 hour of 10-8 - again, perfect. As soon as Alias came on, the sound started to cut out every 5 - 8 seconds and it was unwatchable. I tried to go to the other digital stations and they, too, were intermittent but not just in audio. I did not touch my antenna all day as I was finally satisfied I had found the solution to getting all stations with one position. I am getting really irritated by the apparent inconsistencies of this digital TV world.

So do I chalk this up to adventures of an early adopter and relish the good times and put up with the bad, understanding things will be better in the future? The OTA HD world is not yet perfect. Reports of similar experiences will go a long way towards providing comfort.

Bob

Alias was perfect for me so it must have been your signal.

I see a lot of talk about antennas so I will report my little story along with the rest. I live in the Lake Grove area of Lake Oswego and I have a big antenna (4' - 5' long) in my attic of my single story house that was there when I bought the place. However, I didn't feel like climbing up there and drilling holes and feeding wire, etc. So I went out and bought a small,m non-directional RCA antenna with single loop and rabbit ears hoping it would work on top of the TV. Unfortunately, it only worked for NBC and OPB, though the signal strength was 100%. So I went into the attic and did the work. The larger antenna gets 93% or better on every channel. I did take the little guy up there to see what it would get and it was able to get 77% on CBS, ABC, FOX etc. and still get the 100% on NBC and OPB.

I guess the point is even with small antennas it will make a big difference on the location you place the antenna, roof or attic vs. on top of your TV

I watched Alias last night and got three of four quick dropouts. But nothing like the drop outs ridgefamus talked about.

My adventures in antennas continue, so I can empathize with ridgefamus and am grateful for hilladen's story.

Here's the latest (if you're interested): I went to Home Depot and Radio Shack and came home with 4 antennas. I couldn't get anything with this one: http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-1880 and the amplification actually made it worse, not better (a guy at radio shack said that would indicate electronic interference---do any of you buy that? if so, it lends credance to my theory of just going to the attic--which I'll discuss below).

The next one was a cheaper set of bunny ears from Radio Shack (can't find it on their site). It was the VHF bunny ears along with a thicker, molded plastic UHF loop that could rotate and tilt. Anyway, it got great reception when I positioned it correctly. I watched about 30 minutes of the LSU/ole miss game and was thrilled. Then I went to do something, came back an hour later, and it wasn't working when I turned it back on. No matter where I put the antenna I couldn't get a stable signal.

So, I pulled out the 58" boom antenna from Home Depot. Hooked it up, and beautiful reception. Again, I'm thrilled. Watch another 20 minutes or so of the game. Then, Sunday afternoon I try to watch the Oakland/Kansas City game, but again cannot get stable reception, no matter what I do with the stupid antenna. Try again at 8:30 so that my wife can watch Alias in HD. Again, perfect reception. when I came down at 8:55 to be sure it will all be good for her, it's not working again, no matter how much I work on repositioning it. AAAUUURRRGGGHHH!!!

So, here's my current theory (which I would appreciate so feedback on before I undertake the effort). I'm going to mount the 58" boom antenna in my attic hoping that the height will make a difference (I live in a two story home--as are all the one's around me). Hilladen's story makes me hopeful. I figure if I'm still not getting on-going stable reception I could add an amplifier. Any thoughts?

thanks.

Originally posted by hilladen
I watched Alias last night and got three of four quick dropouts. But nothing like the drop outs ridgefamus talked about.
Welcome to the Forum, hilladen, could you please update your profile so we know where you are from?

Thanks.

sladewatts, I would be surprised if you couldn't get any reception for any amount of time down in Oregon City. You are not that far away from where I am and I can get fairly strong signals even with a little non directional antenna. I would imagine once you get it installed in the attic you should see a drastic improvement.

I went to Home Depot and Radio Shack and came home with 4 antennas.Four! It's a good thing I didn't give you any more than the two stores to look into :). I think the attic will make a big difference. That's where I've got mine. On the other hand, I seriously don't think an amplifier will help any where within the immediate PDX area though.

ron

Originally posted by sladewatts
My adventures in antennas continue, so I can empathize with ridgefamus and am grateful for hilladen's story.
. . .
Try again at 8:30 so that my wife can watch Alias in HD. Again, perfect reception. when I came down at 8:55 to be sure it will all be good for her, it's not working again, no matter how much I work on repositioning it. AAAUUURRRGGGHHH!!!

Could be a conincidence, but this is about the time (9pm Sun night) it started to rain - out in west Portland, at least.

So, here's my current theory (which I would appreciate so feedback on before I undertake the effort). I'm going to mount the 58" boom antenna in my attic hoping that the height will make a difference (I live in a two story home--as are all the one's around me). Hilladen's story makes me hopeful. I figure if I'm still not getting on-going stable reception I could add an amplifier. Any thoughts?

thanks.
Attic made a great difference for me - VHF and UHF - at least once I figured out that I had the antenna backwards.

I simply put up some nylon cords and suspended it so that it was pointed toward the west hills - which I have line-of-sight to.

If you have a smaller TV, you can bring that up for positioning. For DTV, make sure it's on a UHF station (I used 49 and 32). I guess best thing would be to have one UHF station per tower - if someone knows the mapping?

Never could eliminate multipath, though. Thankfully, you won't get shadows with DTV - but you might not get anything either, if it's bad enough. :)

I simply put up some nylon cords and suspended it so that it was pointed toward the west hills - which I have line-of-sight to.
When I had mine up in the attic, I bought the adapter at Rat Shack that straddles the crown of the house and mounted it in the "V" at the peak of the attic and ran a pole down and mounted the antenna upside down. It worked great.

I haven't seen it mentioned in awhile so I'll add this to the antenna discussion.

Try adding a 10db pad to the coax leading to the back of your receivers. (Some receivers ship with the pad included.)

This will break up any standing waves in the coax. Standing waves are signal reflections that act like ghosts.

The other use for the pad is to lower the signal level. (It is possible to have to much signal.)

Hi folks,

Very new to the forum and very new to HDTV - glad to have found this thread!

I live in SE PDX, work in education in the SE and a new retail outfit in the pearl, and just graduated from college.

I purchased a Toshiba 30 inch widescreen hdtv two days ago (the 30HF83) and have begun to do research on the best way to receive high definition broadcasts. Currently, I do not have cable or an hdtv receiver. I live in an apartment, so attic mounted antennas are somewhat impossible.

Anyhow, I am beginning to read through this thread, which is quite exhaustive! Hopefully, if I post some annoyingly simple newbie questions, ya'll will excuse my ignorance...

Andy

[QUOTE]Originally posted by craigpratt
[B]Could be a conincidence, but this is about the time (9pm Sun night) it started to rain - out in west Portland, at least.


I appreciate this observation about the rain. It indeed was sprinkling lightly at the time I began having my troubles. If light rain poses this kind of threat to HD reception then I see little future for HD in the Northwest;)

However, I think I may have found the culprit. I watched the first hour of MNF last night with perfect reception - again not moving my SS from the position it gave great pics on Fri., Sat., and early Sun. Then the sound started to act up like it did on Alias. No picture glitches, just audio breakups very frequently. As I was about to get up and toss the SS thru the window, I decided to power off my STB (Zenith HD420) and turn it back on. Presto! My audio was fixed!! -at least temporarily. I had to do this a few times during the evening until CSI-Miami was ended. So I think my problem lies within the hardware.

Has anyone else had this kind of experience with the Zenith? I'll post a similar question on the Hardware thread.

But back to the rain theory. I haven't found anything in searches in other threads about this or about other kinds of signal pollution caused snow, dust, etc. I know I get dropouts and sometimes signal loss on my DirecTV during very intense rain, but never during the typical rainfalls we get here. But the signal from the West towers only travels 5 miles to get to me, not the 22k+ from a satellite. So is there any substance to this?

Bob

The rain will give you more chances of multipath from a million watt omnidirectional transmitter that's five miles away. The rain usually just attenuates the signal from a satellite up in the sky that's thousands of miles away.

I can't explain squat about the interaction between DTV OTA signals (8VSB modulation, to be specific) and rain. But I do know it's a topic that'd received a lot of attention years back. I believe there were some debate between 8VSB and other OTA modulation techniques - esp in regards to rain.

I'd always guessed that there were reasons Portland was targeted for some early HD testing - thanks to rain and hills - which seem to be good multipath producers. But this is mere speculation on my part.

But I do know that you could tell if it was raining or foggy hour-to-hour based on signal strength meters setup out in Hillsboro...

No KOIN!!

Hello. I just put up an RCA rooftop antenna (ANT3020X) and was able to receive all local channels except for KOIN. From where I live, Garden Home area, I can see the "antenna farm" on the West Hills quite clearly. Any advise from the experts would be greatly appreciated.

PS: OPB and KGW have some of the most stunning shows!

Henry

Can you receive ABC (KATU)? I believe those are out of the same tower, if I remember right.

Hilladen,

Yes, I can receive KATU perfectly. It's very strange.

Henry

Interesting discovery:

Out of curiosity, I check the signal strength for KOIN-digital (channel 40) and the receiver show almost 100%! Still, there is no SIGNAL!

Could someone please check to see if KOIN is even broadcast in digital the last couple days?


Thanks,

Henry

Yes they have, I watched part of something for a little while.

My Samsung SIR-T351 shows signal strength for KOIN at near 100% but display a blank screen with a NO SIGNAL message. I'm wondering if this is a tuner problem. I may take it back tomorrow for a different unit or brand.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!

any one tried connecting the cable to the ANT IN and get cable channels through a HD420 receiver? I tried scanning for all 3 CADTV formats (STD, HRC and IRC) but no signal. I'm wondering if this is because Comcast or because I didn't used the attenuator. Comcast says they do offer the HDTV service in my area.
Thanks and Happy Holidays to all !

Comcast uses QAM modulation on its channels. OTA receivers receive 8VSB modulation; they won't be able to decipher QAM signals.

STD, HRC, and IRC refer to the frequency bandplans for the 6 MHz-wide channels used on cable systems. STD are the same as OTA channels (although numbering is different for channels over 13); HRC uses channels such that, for analog signals, the video carrier is a multiple of 6 MHz; IRC is somewhere inbetween STD and HRC.

Originally posted by dervish
My Samsung SIR-T351 shows signal strength for KOIN at near 100% but display a blank screen with a NO SIGNAL message. I'm wondering if this is a tuner problem. I may take it back tomorrow for a different unit or brand.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!

We watched most of the Michigan/Miami game this afternoon on KOIN in HD with no problems. This was OTA on our Samsung SIR-T151. Didn't check the signal strength - but no dropouts.

Good Grief!

I got the antenna set up in the attic. To check position I used the 27" TV that was upstairs already. It got 8, 10, and 12 perfectly, 2 and 6 were very good. I tried to check 32 and 49, but only got static--I realized afterward that the TV needed to be switched from cable to Air, which may explain this. According to antennaweb a yellow will get me digital, a green will get me VHF stations, so I figure with the VHF coming in so well the digital should be no problem.

So, I string the cable down the side of teh house and into the theater room to check it out. I get all teh stations video perfectly at first, but 2 and 8 both have severe audio problems. So, I attach an attenuater--things get worse. So, I take the attenuator off, things get even worse. Within 10 minutes I can't even get clear video on any station anymore. This seems to be the pattern wherever I put an antenna--it works better at first, but then quickly degrades, or degrades when I check it later.

I have three things I wanted to try, but am open to feedback about what to try first.

Perhaps this is a problem with the SIR-T150 I got on ebay? If so, I can either go get another receiver at the store and try it or, if someone were willing, I could take my SIR-T150 to someone's house, hook it into their system, and see how it works.

Perhaps I need the attenna more accurately aligned for digital reception than VHF? If so, I just need to wait for my wife to get patient enough with me again to check the signal downstairs while I fiddle in the attic.

Perhaps an amplifier would solve the problem? I know someone said they doubted that would be needed in the portland area, but it's an easy one to check--so, I'll probably do that first.

Any thoughts?

THANKS--I think this post was as much about venting as it was looking for help, since I can obviously try all those things myself. It's just nice to complain to people who understand what you're complaining about and it's significance to you.

Originally posted by sladewatts
... so I figure with the VHF coming in so well the digital should be no problem.

It would be nice if that were true, but it most definitely is not. VHF goes around hills alot better than UHF. You can have wonderful VHF reception at your location, and useless UHF.

It's been my experience that you need to get decent reception on channels 49 and 24 in order to expect to get the digital stations. Decent means only moderate ghosting (not so much that the horizontal and vertical holds are messed up). SNow isn't generally isn't a problem unless it's very excessive.

UHF could be tough from Oregon City.

BTW, reception on 32 doesn't count, as it transmits from a different location at much higher altitude.

So, BarryO, do you think this means more accurately pointing my antenna, using an amplifier, getting a bigger antenna, or putting the antenna on the roof (which I don't think I'm willing to do--but maybe. . . )?

I feel a little better about my antenna troubles after looking at your web page. Wow! That looks like a lot of work. Very impressive.

The box sounds flaky to me. I wouldn't think your signal strength should fluctuate that widely. And the weather shouldn't be an issue unless you've got big trees between you and the towers that get blown around by wind gusts. I have my antenna in my attic and there is a large multi-trunked cedar tree right behind my house which is directly in line with the towers. With my old Hughes receiver when we had high winds it would cause some signal disruption, but the new Sony box seems good to go so far.

ron

I would agree that the box is probably the problem. I have a large hill/pass in between me and the towers, as well as several large Douglas fir trees (Psuedotsuga menziezii) and I have no trouble with signal strength coming through. And from what I have read, you have a similar set up at this point with a large attic antenna and are located near me. Try a different box, I doubt the 5 or so antennas you have tried are the problem

Originally posted by sladewatts
Good Grief!
[chomp]
Perhaps this is a problem with the SIR-T150 I got on ebay? If so, I can either go get another receiver at the store and try it or, if someone were willing, I could take my SIR-T150 to someone's house, hook it into their system, and see how it works.


Sorry to hear about your on-going headaches. The fact is that antennas are freaky-ass things that are difficult things to understand - at least for me.

Send me a private message if you'd like to try it from my place. I'm in the Bethany area (north of HW26 a bit east of NW 185th). I have the same receiver (SIR-T151). And two of the same receiver running off the same antenna should show equivalent signal strength, I would hope.

Samsung SIR-T351 ...Goodbye. Problem solved.

After 2 weeks of testing with 3 sets of antennas, I've decided to return the Samsung. I brought home the Motorolla HDT100 last night and after only a couple minutes of scanning, the unit found all available DTV stations available in Portland, including the two CBS/KOIN channels. It also found the name and related information for each station, something the Samsung was unable to perform.

It's really too bad because I actually like the appearance and build quality of the Samsung much better. The DVI output was very nice and produced marvelous picture when hooked up to my Sony XBR910.

The Motorolla feels cheap and it is, about one hundred bucks less than the Samsung. The on-screen menu is functional but quite ugly. It reminded me of those free "skins" available for some computer MP3 players.

You just can't have everything!

Cheers,

Henry

If you really want a Samsung, I have the SIR-TS160 and it works great for receiving and labeling all the OTA channels and it has a very nice DVI output that looks marvelous when hooked up to my XBR910.

I also, noticed that KOIN gives a schedule on my satellite guide. Does anyone know if any of the other area channels are going to start doing the same thing. I suppose KGW's would simply say golf, parade, west wing, golf, parade...:p

Hilladen,
************
If you really want a Samsung, I have the SIR-TS160 and it works great for receiving and labeling all the OTA channels and it has a very nice DVI output that looks marvelous when hooked up to my XBR910.
***********
I'm not familiar with this Samsung model. Are you selling it?

Henry

Dervish, Sorry that post was a little misleading, no I am not selling it I was just trying to say if you wanted to stay with the Samsung brand, since you didn't seem to up on you Motorolla, that a SIR-TS160 would be a nice way to go.

Hilladen, I'm sorry too, for misreading your post. I just looked up the TS160 and was quite impressed. It has DVI and appears to be very well made. Nevertheless, I just don't want to pay for the DirectTV part of the unit. From where I live, surrounded by all the tall evergreens, a satellite disk is just out of the question.

I have a few more days to play with the Samsung. The more I think about it the more I want to keep this unit. I can either try to get it to work or just have to live without CBS/KOIN. Cheers,

Henry

I have a Samsung SIR-T165(160 without the DirectTV) and it works great. I live in Oak Hills, probably just SE of craigpratt. I have a 4 bay channelmaster on my roof so signal is not an issue. I would also be open to having folks who are having problems dropping by to check their unit with my antenna.

PS: Had a friend who got a 351 and had lots or problems with the DVI port not working.

Later, Chuck

The 165 also has external inputs for other gear so it can upconvert the signal, right? How well does that work? I've been thinking of picking one up.

Does anyone know where I can pick up a SIR-T165 in the Portland area? Circuit City does not have it. Thanks - Henry.

Best Buy carries Samsung STBs, and the SIR-T165 is on the website. Be prepared for some sticker shock, though....and you should call first to see if they have this in stock.

I got mine via internet. Amazon, Loftynotion, Etronics are all places that carry the unit.

I currently have 2 DVD players, one connected directly to the TV and the other connected to the 165 and feeding the TV thru the DVI cable. With some quick looks I don't see much difference, I am hoping to some more careful checking soon.

Originally posted by Marissadad
The 165 also has external inputs for other gear so it can upconvert the signal, right? How well does that work? I've been thinking of picking one up.

Hi Marissadad.

I picked up the T165 last summer and have been happy with it. It's teamed
up with the Sony XBR910, and an antenna to feed it OTA broadcasts.

It does have plenty of external inputs, so you can use to feed your video game
or DVD player into, and have that go out to the TV set. I played around with
that for a while, but it was kind of a moot point after I got the 910, since that
has plenty of inputs in it, and has a "progressive scan" mode built into it
that is supposed to do the same thing.

Regarding the DVI output. I have and use the DVI cable to hook up
the T165 to the 910. However, my eyes cannot really tell a difference between
DVI and component (or composite, I always get those two names mixed up)
The GOOD one anyway seems the same as DVI to me. However, I have
NOT had the 910 professionally tuned or anything, so others with better
eyes or a better setup may notice a difference.

The only real glitch I have had in the system is the DVI output. And it is the
following.

* If I have the TV turned on (and the DVI cable connecting the T165 to
the 910), and I then turn on the T165, the T165 will not start up!

"Hello" lights up on the front of the T165, but it gets no further.

HOWEVER, if I start up the T165 first, and then turn on the TV, everything
is honky dory. So that is what I do.

Note that I do not have the above glitch if I am not using the DVI cable.
If I'm using another cable to connect the two devices I dont' see this behaviour.

Anway, that probably belongs in another thread, so if you want to discuss it
further, tell me where to go and I'll meet you there

Shawn in Albany

bdb - Thanks for the info. I called Magnolia and they wanted $700 for it. Nearly twice as much as the T351.
NikeMan - Thanks for offering the use of your antenna setup. I'l may take you up on that. Do your DVD players have DVI outputs?

I did a performance comparison between the Samsung and the Motorolla receivers last night. The incoming antenna signal was fed to a splitter before going to the two units. The Samsung was then connected to the DVI input and the Moto to the component input of my TV, Sony XBR34-910. With the remote control, I could easily switch the TV to display picture from either inputs.

1. Tuning performance: Both units had problem with receiving and or displaying DTV stations, even with strong signals. The Samsung still gave a blank screen for KOIN and the Motorolla had problem keeping OPB in tuned. The picture kept going in and out for a few seconds or so. In any case, the indicators from both units displayed good and strong signal reception.

I live in the Garden Home area, which is very close to the signal source. From the roof of my house, where the ChannelMaster antenna is mounted, I could clearly see the "transmitters farm" on the West Hills few miles away. I'm very dissapointed. As a late comer to this game I though that they had already worked out most the rough edges of this technology. Why one receiver has problem receiving one station but not the other? Do I have to have at least two receivers in order to get all the stations?

2. Picture quality: this is interesting ... I did not expect to see much of a difference, if any, between the two units. The Samsung had a very sharp, detailed and well-defined picture. The text on Jay Leno's coffee mug was quite vivid, almost distractingly so. I did not know Jay had that much wrinkles on his face! It was almost too sharp and it may not be a positive thing for poor and noisy programs. Also, it was a bit dark compared to the Moto and my DVD sources. For this test, I had to create a different picture setting with higher brightness level for the TV to display it comparably.

The Motorolla had a nice, bright and pleasant display for all DTV stations. It is much more forgiving than the Samsung as far as showing flaws in the program. I'd be perfectly happy with this unit if it could receive OPB reliably and if I'd not seen the stunning Samsung picture with a good HD source.

Well, I'm going to keep the Samsung. I'll try to fix the KOIN reception later by, perhaps, moving the antenna to a different location. Anyone with any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Henry

Hey Dervish,

I have heard alot about folks getting to strong a signal, they have to put a attenuator in between the antenna and receiver. Have you tried a small loop antenna. It was hard for me to believe that you could have to strong of signal(this is America after all, more is alway better) but it seems some receivers can get overwhelmed.

I don't have a DVD player with DVI output, good thing since my TV has 1 DIV input and DVI switchers are still kinda rare(and pricey)

Good luck, Chuck

NikeMan, thanks for the advise. I did try a small loop antenna for indoor. The only 2 channels I received were NBC and OPB.

Where can one get an ATTENUATOR for antenna?

Henry

Originally posted by sladewatts
So, BarryO, do you think this means more accurately pointing my antenna, using an amplifier, getting a bigger antenna, or putting the antenna on the roof (which I don't think I'm willing to do--but maybe. . . )?

I feel a little better about my antenna troubles after looking at your web page. Wow! That looks like a lot of work. Very impressive.

Well, as i said, try to get decent analog reception on 24 and 49. A roof installation should help.

Check out this thread for the alot of antenna info: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27746&perpage=30&pagenumber=1

Also this site: http://www.atechfabrication.com/

You might also try a Zenith box rather than the Samsung.

I had a Zenith STB that I was trying out and had a heck of a time with OTA HD channels. An attenuator came with the receiver. The manual said too strong of a signal could cause problems and to use the attenuator under these conditions. I think I've read something about the strong signal increases the possibility of multipathing. The attenuator is just a cylinder shaped object that goes between your antenna coax and the antenna input on the receiver.

I had a lot of problems until I put that on. BTW I live in the North East edge of Tigard. near 80th and Locust not far from Garden Home.

If one didn't come with your reciever you can probably get one at Radio Shack.

YMMV, but it might be worth a try.

You know, I think you're all onto something with the attenuation idea.

My antenna is hooked into the RJ-59 that was installed for cable. Then it's split about 4 ways. Then it's split again at the media center another 4 ways. So I'm sure the signal strength is being greatly attenuated.

Even with this, 49 looks like it's still amped-up on my Replay - lots of blooming and such.

I first tried a 6db and then a 10db attenuators last night and still no KOIN. I even combined the two for a total of 16db of attenuation.

It's quite interesting, these signal reduction steps made no difference to the signal strength meter of the T351, which registered in full strength every step of the way.

Henry

Bummer the attenuators didn't help. My last idea is I remember reading on some one's website(I think he was a rocket scientist) that the DTV band is sensitive to surrounding both vertically and horizontally. He said to try not just moving the antenna up and down and rotating it but to also move it around your roof/attic. Something about valleys in the wave pattern, interference patterns and such, I consider myself fairly knowledgeable but this was over my head. I think he said the wavelengths were such that you should move the antenna 20 feet or more to check for a peak in the signal. A friend had a 351 and also mentioned that the signal strength meter didn't seem to change. Hope you get it working, Chuck

Craig: Thanks for letting me come over!

For anyone who's interested, it was the box that was the problem--it still didn't get stable reception, even at Craig's. So, now I guess I'm going to have to find another one.

Thanks for everyone's help--hopefully a new box will quickly resolve my problems.

Hello everyone,

I just talked to Samsung this morning and they asked me to call KOIN directly, because it was the station problem, they said. Well i called KOIN and had a chance to talk to a very kind engineer there. Right after I mentioned the name Samsung, he already knew the exact model in question! He said the T351 has some software bugs and he's been fighting with Samsung to get it fix since last summer! Samsung is doing nothing about it!

I'm taking his advise and bring this unit back to the store.

Cheers,

Henry

FWIW, this whole discussion about your Sammy box and KOIN's reply should be posted to the HDTV Hardware thread as others might benefit. Who knows, you might find other answers to the problems there, as well. :-)

Bob

For anyone who's interested, it was the box that was the problem--it still didn't get stable reception, even at Craig's.Thought so! Good luck with a new box. FWIW, when I recently had the opportunity to swap my two year old Mitsubishi receiver for a new Sammy box straight up, I inquired about and paid $200 extra just to get the new Sony instead. It just seems there have been too many issues with the Sammy units for me and my impression is that they also seem to be less responsive to customer input for upgrades/fixes. I waffled a bit before I actually forked over the $200 but these recent local developments are making me feel better about the decision.

ron

ridgefamus,

Is it possible to post on two different threats simultanously? I'm new to this group and I thought it was appropriate for me to use this threat instead. It's related to a local Portland station after all.

Henry

Hi all Portlanders and Portland area-ers,

I just ran across the Portland threads here and now I'm really bummed out. I just got a T351 a week ago and have been trying different antennas in an attempt to get the main channels in the area. So far no KOIN and no KATU. At this point, I've only tried indoor antennas both non-amped and amped. I was getting ready to get a big one for the attic, but I may not get KOIN even with that..... I mainly got the T351 because it was a good deal and had DVI output.

Maybe I"ll just have to dump it on Ebay if I can't get it to work....

This is by far the best forum I've found for Home Theater.

Originally posted by R11
chomp
It just seems there have been too many issues with the Sammy units for me and my impression is that they also seem to be less responsive to customer input for upgrades/fixes. I waffled a bit before I actually forked over the $200 but these recent local developments are making me feel better about the decision.

ron
Just as a small counterpoint: the Sam SIR-T151 I have at my place, which was a refurb I got off E-bay for $220, worked out-of-the-box and picks up every station in town - and with no changes to my existing hodgepodge of cabling (I hijacked the maze of RJ-59 that was pre-existing at my house and grafted a ChannelMaster onto it).

I understand what you're talking about in terms of support quality - that's important. But then again, I got an InFocus for this reason - and still waiting for a fix for sync issues. :)

I think I know an easy way to directly connect my antenna to the 151 and see if it introduces a problem. Maybe that will be a good data point.

Originally posted by mgarne
Hi all Portlanders and Portland area-ers,

I just ran across the Portland threads here and now I'm really bummed out. I just got a T351 a week ago and have been trying different antennas in an attempt to get the main channels in the area. So far no KOIN and no KATU. At this point, I've only tried indoor antennas both non-amped and amped. I was getting ready to get a big one for the attic, but I may not get KOIN even with that..... I mainly got the T351 because it was a good deal and had DVI output.

Maybe I"ll just have to dump it on Ebay if I can't get it to work....

This is by far the best forum I've found for Home Theater.
As you can see, people in this group don't give up that easily. :)

Where about in Hillsboro are you?

The group I used to work for did lots of tests receiving KOIN from the Intel Jones Farm campus - and had very good success.

Also, what are the particular antenna types?

Craig, I didn't mean to totally dump on the Sammy units. There's a ton of them out there and many people use them successfully. When I mentioned my reservations about them at Magnolia where the swap was taking place they told me their experience has been very good with them. That being said, I'm still glad I decided to opt for the alternative anyway :).

ron

Not an apologist - just providing a data point.

I do find it encouraging though that these boxes are getting cheaper and can produce good results.

Of course, cheaper and better is where things need to go. The Sam is still not cheap enough for my wife. :)

I'm just East of Brookwood/Schute Road a few blocks from TV Hwy. Unfortunately for TV reception, there are a number of tall trees fairly close by. But I'm surprised that I can get KGW fairly well, but no KATU and no KOIN. I'm also able to get 49 sort of and 32.

So far I just bought a cheap Jensen indoor antenna that didn't work too well. I then tried a 20dB amp that I already had and added it to it. Marginally better - fewer dropouts on KGW. I also tried just about an 18" long piece of speaker wire to see how much the purchase antenna was doing and that worked almost as well. I figured I'd start small and move up if needed. It definitely is needed.

Does anyone know where to get one of the more recommended antenna types such as Channel Master or Antenna Craft, etc? I called a couple of TV/Sat places and most had very limited or no regular attic or roof antennas. I'll have to either mount mine in my attic which is difficult to get into or the fire access cubbies that are on the side of my media room.

mgarne, take a look a few posts back about the Samsung 351. It looks like that specific model has a problem picking up KOIN (whereas previous models didn't have that problem; go figure).

As far as an antenna goes, step one is usually to try a Zenith Silver Sensor (pick 'em up at Circuit City). It should work better than any indoor antenna from Target and such. UHF-specific antennas work best. I have a friend just due east of you on 185th, and it worked fine for him except for some multipath interference (it pointed right at the intersection of 185th & Walker, and every time the cars would stop at the lights he got interference! He used an antenna he had on the roof, all was fine).

Otherwise, call some of the places on the channelmaster.com distributor list (I tried Fry's & they only had the horrible 3010, which works worse than the much smaller Silver Sensor). The 4228 would be good for your area. Whatever you do, get something that looks like an antenna, not a space ship.

Attic reception usually isn't nearly as good as outdoors, but you're close enough it might not be an issue as long as you have a good enough antenna. I see a noticeable gain in reception just moving my SS from inside the glass door to just outside, and I lose a couple of stations if I put a wall between it and the direction of the towers.

Home Depot, Lowes or Radio Shack.

ron

<Cloaking Device Off>

Folks,

The Samsung SIR-T351 will not decode KOIN-DT successfully. Why only KOIN? The problem has something to do with the PSIP that KOIN transmits that confuses the Samsung unit. PSIP includes the Program Guide data, presently unique to KOIN; as well as other program related information such as DTV Standard 708 Closed Captioning, again, unique to KOIN; SAP and Descriptive Video sound channels, also unique to KOIN. What will happen in the future as other stations add these services is unknown.

We have had our PSIP stream analyzed by Triveni (a unit of LG Electronics), the vendor, (and independently by a Tektronix engineer at his own interest) and have been able to confirm that the KOIN PSIP stream is in compliance. That determination was forwarded by Triveni to Samsung engineers in Korea last summer when the 351 first hit town. I have tried to contact Samsung through both Triveni and the NAB Office of Technology with no luck. This is unfortunate.

If you are able to contact Samsung (several viewers have) you will be told that KOIN needs to upgrade its PSIP to Standard 2.0 or greater. There is no such thing. ATSC Standard A/65B is the current standard. The KOIN PSIP meets all requirements of the current ATSC Standard as confirmed by two sources separately.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Lee Wood
Director of Engineering
KOIN-TV / KOIN-DT

<Cloaking Device On>

mgarne, I posted my tale about different antennas I tried a few days back in this thread. The fast of it is I am in Lake Oswego and have tall trees around me as well. When I tried an indoor antenna I couldn't recieve KOIN/KATU. Once I was up to the attic I was able to get the signals at 77%.

<Cloaking Device Off> ..... <Cloaking Device On>Hey Lee, good to hear from you again. Before you re-engage the cloaking device is there any hope we'll see a fix any time soon for the stand-alone full drop out we now experience every so often on KOIN?

ron

Originally posted by mgarne
Does anyone know where to get one of the more recommended antenna types such as Channel Master or Antenna Craft, etc? I called a couple of TV/Sat places and most had very limited or no regular attic or roof antennas. I'll have to either mount mine in my attic which is difficult to get into or the fire access cubbies that are on the side of my media room.

http://www.schadelectronics.com/ in San Jose has a good stock of Channel Master and Winegard. They'll sell to anyone. I've stopped in there when I've been down to SJC on business; they'll also ship.

The best local stock that I know of for Channel Master is Double-O Electronics out by PDX, www.doubleo.com. Technically, they are a "wholesale-only" distributor, though. In any case, don't expect the normal 30-day money-back retail terms.

There is a Winegard distributor in Salem, but he doesn't normally carry any stock.

From Brookwood, a CM 3021 or 4221 mounted on the roof should work fine.

In my many antenna adventures I went to Home Depot, Fry's, Fred Meyer, and Radio Shack.

Radio Shack was head and shoulders above the rest for selection and assistance.

Originally posted by R11
Hey Lee, good to hear from you again. Before you re-engage the cloaking device is there any hope we'll see a fix any time soon for the stand-alone full drop out we now experience every so often on KOIN?

ron Ron, are you talking about how the HDTV signal on KOIN just freezes for about 15 seconds every once in a while?

It has been occuring for me once per episode of Joan of Arcadia for the last few episodes, usually right when anyone says something absolutely central to the plot. :(

This is it!!!

I took the Sammy T351 back to Circuit City today. The saleman told me it was the second T351 that he knew was returned recently for the same problem.

I took home an older Zenith HDV420 and I'm sitting here watching every channel available in the area, KOIN and OPB included. It was an open-box unit and came with an offer I could not refuse.

Thank you all for your support.

Henry

Until a few weeks ago I got good recepton on 12-1 and 30-2 for the FOX broadcasts. Now 12-1 is freezing up often, and 30-2 is not coming in though sometimes I get a flash of it. Has anyone else seen recent problems with these channels or is it something in my location or setup? All the other digital stations come in fine, even OPB and KOIN and I use a Toshiba DST-3000 box with a good antenna in my attic.

Any ideas??

Originally posted by R11
Hey Lee, good to hear from you again. Before you re-engage the cloaking device is there any hope we'll see a fix any time soon for the stand-alone full drop out we now experience every so often on KOIN?

ron

It's difficult to say whether a dropout is on the transmitting end or the receiving end this time of year. When the leaves got wet I lost KOIN and KATU completely (I don't have line of sight to Sylvan) and had to readjust my attic antenna once my neighbor's oak tree lost its leaves. UHF reception changes seasonally (worse in Fall and Spring with wet leaves, better in Winter and Summer with no or at least dry leaves) and this explains why different viewers of the different stations have seen a lot of changes in reception lately.

Lee,

Since you forgot to turn that cloaking device back on ...

I'm assuming you won't have an answer for us, but any insight on KOIN getting carried on Comcast cable any time soon?

Anyone else have any insights on any of the other locals? I'm getting a bit tired of only having KATU and OPB.

Thanks!

Ron, are you talking about how the HDTV signal on KOIN just freezes for about 15 seconds every once in a while?

I suggest everyone make note of the exact time when these glitches happen and then post them here (along with your STB make and model). If they happen at the same time for everyone, then it is at the xmitter.

Hi..

I've been semi-lurking here for awhile and have a question.

For over a year I've been suffering with my Samsung SIR-T150 in receiving ABC here in Portland. (I get a horrible garbling of the audio - many power-cycles solves the problem for 15 min to 60 min, rev 1.8 firmware). All the other Portland channels come in fantastic !!

As a casual lurker in this thread, I've sensed that there are many similar "one station" issues with other HDTV models. Most recently the Samsung SIR-T351.

What are the specific models of standalone HDTV receivers that work well with all the stations here in Portland (assuming you can receive a good signal)?

It would be very helpful to have an up-to-date list of "Portland compatible" receivers very visible to the Portland HDTV community.

Erik
Vancouver, WA

p.s. if no one yet has such a list, maybe we can take a survey and find which receivers work and don't work well here?

Watched all of the HD football on KOIN-DT this afernoon and experienced one half-second glitch at 3:13:41 (but muted all commercials.)

P.S. You can calibrate your watch here:
http://nist.time.gov/timezone.cgi?Pacific/d/-8/java

Does everyone else just have a black screen on the Fox 480p subchannel? I have an HDV420 and its just been black for some time now. The signal shows up as very good.

Ditto on Fox 30-02, I get a signal strength of 87%, just a flash of a picture, then nothing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron, are you talking about how the HDTV signal on KOIN just freezes for about 15 seconds every once in a while?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I suggest everyone make note of the exact time when these glitches happen and then post them here (along with your STB make and model). If they happen at the same time for everyone, then it is at the xmitter.]Lee, Jim and Larry, yes, this is clearly not a reception issue. My KOIN reception is fine. This problem is pretty much just like Jim Prouty described. No "marginal reception" macro blocking at all. Just every so often a total drop out. Complete drop of video and audio. For me they only last maybe five seconds, just long enough for the sony receiver to bring up the "no signal" banner before it pops back on. No where near the "regular" frequency that they used to occur on KOIN previously, but a little longer duration when they do happen.

ron

Thanks to Lee Wood for the very informative post regarding KOIN and the T-351 receiver. This confirms my assumption that I need to get rid of my T-351. :(

Too bad. Oh, well. I guess someone in another market may be able to use it with no side effects - at least for the time being. It is very disappointing that Samsung has not been responsive to this issue.

I'm thinking maybe I'll go with the LG DVD/STB combo thing that has DVI out. It should work well when I get my Sanyo PLV-Z2 :)

Marty

Originally posted by bdb
Does everyone else just have a black screen on the Fox 480p subchannel?
Yeah It was completely black yesterday.

FOX is black for me as well

WB update:

Darrell,

I guess it's time for another update of our DTV status. On September 18th, I ordered the last of the pieces for our new digital microwave system. Last Friday, I finally received the feedhorn for the dish for the Sylvan end of the link after waiting 12 weeks for delivery. To add insult to injury, that final piece was sent FedEx Priority Overnight delivery as if it would make some difference in the whole schedule. With all the delays, I couldn't schedule the tower installation crew until all the pieces arrived so now I am waiting to hear back about their availability. They have been working on several other projects but the unusually high winds have caused numerous delays.

We have the HD encoder producing beautiful pictures hear at the studio and we have all the other equipment installed and tested for reception of HD from the network as well as upconverting our SD material to 1080i. The PSIP system is operating as well. There are a few minor issues to be addressed but I am confident that once the microwave system is operational, we will be able to broadcast in HD. I'll let you know when the whole system is operational.

Pat Shearer, CSTE
Chief Engineer
KWBP-TV
10255 SW Arctic Dr
Beaverton OR 97005

Marissadad: Thanks for posting this. Waiting with baited breath.

Say, when did you move back to Woodburn from HDTV Heaven??

Bob

Does anyone in Portland have any experience with the reception of the local HD feeds with the stb that comes with the VOOM package ? I also have the Samsung T150 and am ready to throw it in the driveway and run over it.

Originally posted by ridgefamus
Marissadad: Thanks for posting this. Waiting with baited breath.

Say, when did you move back to Woodburn from HDTV Heaven??

Bob
I just ordered a Boxlight 2HD PJ (Sanyo PLV-Z2 clone) and it should be here in about 2 weeks!! When my PJ arrives & WB is on air with HD and now that KATU is stable, I guess I will be moving back to HDTV Heaven shortly. :D

Wow, it would be nice to have the WB in HD, and speaking of KATU did anyone else have no audio during the Monday Night Football game?

Flipped by the football game to check the score a couple times last night and audio seemed fine.

I also watched the CSI-Miami repeat and even though I wasn't paying close attention since I'd seen it before, I noticed one drop out about 7 minutes into the show. And I have to take it back, I counted out the duration and for me it wasn't any longer than the drops KOIN used to have with regularity, (3-4 seconds). Noticed one earlier during one of the other shows as well.

ron

I didn't watch the game but flipped it on a few times and the audio was fine.

MNF came in fine for me also. I didn't watch too much though after the 2 interceptions at the end of the first half. I had to check out Battlestar Galatica *BORING* anyways.

Fox was coming in fairly well last sunday. The video would stutter sometimes though. Audio would play fine. 30-2 was completely black as other people have been reporting.

As for my reception issues, they seem to be all fixed. I bought a silver sensor and reception was great, for about 2 hours. Then it started dropping off extremely bad. I felt my reciever and it was hot as hell. So, I turned it off, moved it so that it has better air flow and now I get almost flawless reception. I still have to move the antenna for different channels, but that doesn't bother me too much. I'm just happy to get reception without the darn thing dropping off every 20 seconds! :D

did anyone else have no audio during the Monday Night Football game?

Watched the entire game and got fine audio (DD 5.1) execpt for one momentary glitch.

Originally posted by hilladen
Wow, it would be nice to have the WB in HD, and speaking of KATU did anyone else have no audio during the Monday Night Football game?
Just a thought, are you running your sound through an A/V receiver? If so, is it setup to decode DD? KATU is the only channel in our area broadcasting DD 5.1. Is it working now? Or was it just the game?

I have the ability to listen to it directly from the receiver to the TV or through a stereo amp set-up. I had tried both and still no sound, so that wasn't the issue. So I checked my other OTA channels and nothing on 6-2, 8-2 and WB-DT. So I rescanned my channels still no sound. I tried the old unplug the receiver and plug it back in and like magic it worked. Must have been some strange glitch in the receiver. Odd but thanks for the responses on the MNF audio.

Sorry to barge in, but I recently moved to Portland and am curious as to others experiences with Comcast Digital and HD, Dish Network, and DirecTv in Portland. I have a Sony 50" GWIII LCD on order and am trying to figure out how to get the best PQ for the money. I have a direct view south so Dish or DirecTv would work fine. I have found 3 months free with Dish Network and free equipment for both HD and their Tivo units (though I'd have to spend $10 / month for the 3 boxes...1 HD, 1 DVR, and 1 standard) so I'd be leaning towards Dish over DirecTv if I went satellite. Comcast seems to make the most sense if the PQ is good because I can bundle it with their high speed internet. (Does anyone have any advice on their high speed internet? I know cable bandwidth decreases as more users access it)

Is Comcast Digital worse than Dish or DirecTv as far as PQ is concerned?
I mostly watch SD cable and occasional DVDs, but will probably get into HD when more channels pop up.

Basically what's the best value right now for SD cable? (and yes I do know that SD doesn't look great on big screens, but clunky CRTs wouldn't fit in my space)

If you had to do it over again what would you go with?

Thanks in advance for any info!!!

Stiltz, SD cable varies a lot from location to location. Analog cable looks awful on my set, and digital cable is unwatchable. I have a friend who lives about 5 miles from here, and his analog & digital looks good. HD is $5 more, but they don't have CBS or NBC (NBC should be coming soon).

Dish or DirecTV should have better SD picture, and of course they both have several HD channels. You'd have to get local HD channels over the air, which may work quite well depending on where you are. I'd rather have Dish but my wife likes some stuff that is only on cable. So we watch awful-looking cable.

Originally posted by Stiltz
If you had to do it over again what would you go with?

I was in the same position recently, trying to decide between cable and sat. I ended up going with DirectTV only because the receiver would also allow me to receive OTA HDTV from the local stations; something the cable box doesn't allow you to do. Certainly don't regret my decision. Even with the compression DirectTV uses, the PQ is still far better than anything I've ever seen on cable.

I am getting all of the Comcast HDTV channels, but only HBO and Showtime are watchable. The rest suffer from frequent audio and video dropouts. I had a new line run into the house and there is an amplifier on it that Comcast installed. Are others experiencing the same?

I would guess that Comcast uses alot of compression on channels other than HBO and Showtime.

I actually had the opposite problem with Comcast's HD--too much signal causing audio drop-outs. An attenuater quickly solved that problem. All I ever watch is some Sunday/Monday night football, and my wife watches Alias--but so far the signal's been mostly okay.

I thought there was talk of E* going away from ala carte pricing a while back? Guess not...

ron

Wow! I think I'm in a time warp here. My last post shows up before Marrissadad and bdb whom I was responding to. And their's are time stamped with a time that hasn't even gotten here yet. Enter the twilight zone....

ron

I mostly watch SD cable and occasional DVDs, but will probably get into HD when more channels pop up.
I watch nothing but HD & DVD's now. There is so much to watch in HD, I just don't enjoy watching SD programming anymore. I receive all of the Portland digital channels plus I sub to the Dish Network HD Pack (HDNET/HDNET MOVIES/ESPNHD & DISCOVERYHD). This more than satisfies my TV viewing needs. If you get the HD Pack with Directv they make you sub to a $35/month package of SD programming, whereas Dish only charges an extra $5 if you don't have a Basic package with them.

I dropped all of my Dish SD programming because 1) I don't like how it looks on a 110" screen and 2) I just don't watch it anymore, I'm hooked on HD.

Welcome to Portland and the Forum, I hope you can find what works for you.

YEP! All I have is the Dish HD Pack and Portland Locals for my PVR and I pay $5.99 for Locals, $9.99 for the HD Pack, $5 extra receiver and $5 for no programming package.

Dish has a special on the 811 right now. If you are an existing customer you can get it for either $149 or $199 and you must carry the AT50 for one year. Do the math: Pay $25 for 12 months=$300 or buy an 811 outright for $399. If you are like me, and don't watch the SD channels, the 811 ends up costing you $100 more over a year if you go with their special.

$399 is a heck of a deal by itself, you can hardly find an OTA tuner for $399. The 811 outputs SD & HD simultaneously so you can feed it to another TV or record at the same time. The 811 has the OTA module built in, as well as the newer HD module, 8PSK.

Marissadad, let me get this straight: you only pay the $10 for HD and $5 for not having a package? Man, $15/month is tempting. I can't even get HD added to cable for $15/month, and that's only three channels (that I don't already get OTA). Of course, I'd have to buy a receiver, which is a bigger issue since I already have a tuner. Guess I could sell that on eBay.

Dish alert! I just read in the HD Hardware Forum that yesterday Dish moved ALL HD programming to the 110 satellite with the exception of CBSHD (which we can't get anyway), so you can use one of the old 18" single LNB setups for all of your HD programming from Dish now.

Does the 811 have any problems with our locals? I'm pretty happy with my MyHD, because I can record HD, but getting those few extra channels might be pretty nice. Besides, the wife already knows how to operate a dish receiver.

I doubt the 811 will have issues since the 6000 didn't (well, nothing major like the Samsung). The only gripe I've had with my 6000 is the inability to maintain a signal with the satellite while viewing OTA, the limited guide data and the occassional PSIP burps that remap the channel numbers.

COMCAST ALERT!!!

(Sorry to break up the strangle-hold monopoly you OTA and satellite guys have on this PDX HD thread! :D )

At the risk of jinxing a good situation and causing it to disappear ... I have good news:

I just turned on my Comcast HD box ... and there it was ... Jay Leno in HD!!! We have KGW (NBC)!!! I figured it was coming (as Seattle Comcast just got their NBC affiliate on-line a day or two ago - and I think both affiliates have the same ownership), but I was still shocked.

So now I'm going to get greedy and PRAY for KOIN (CBS) in time for the Super Bowl. Probably shouldn't hold my breath ... but I can hope. The next greedy item would be the much anticipated Motorola 6208 HD-PVR box from Comcast ...

And a quick reply to the person or two who have asked recently about Comcast's HD quality ... all I can say is that I'm very satisfied. I must admit that I do not really have anything to compare it with, but the picture is stunning. I've found that the Seattle Comcast thread is a very good place for information, as I think our areas were both largely AT&T markets and seem to be on similar roll-out schedules. They have a good Comcast CSR (Jeremy) who makes posts and he (and others) have reported that Comcast does not do any sort of compression to the HD signal, but rather just passes the local affiliates' signals straight through. I'm not enough of a techie to know if that's possible or true or anything else ... but again, I'm very satisfied!

I am just starting out with OTA HDTV and would like some advice. First of all, any receiver recommendations? I am looking for a solid, reasonable receiver and I don't mind buying it used.

I live in the hills in West Salem and have a fairly straight view to Portland. I have an old Radio Shack 30 element VHF/UHF antenna I want to try first. I am planning to connect it to my Sharp PG-M20X projector. It is a DLP PJ with XGA resolution.

I am excited about trying this, hopefully it will work here in Salem.

Reception is good in Salem. I lived in Keizer and got all channels no problem. I used a 121" combo Rat Shack but if all you want is the digital, just the Yagi portion should serve you well.

I can't help you on the tuner end, I use a Dish 6000. If you are looking for OTA only, someone else can chime in there.

Good luck and welcome to the forum.

Originally posted by roarbj
I am just starting out with OTA HDTV and would like some advice. First of all, any receiver recommendations? I am looking for a solid, reasonable receiver and I don't mind buying it used.

You can see some of my earlier posts, but I'm getting all the local stations with a Samsung SIR-T151 - $225 off ebay. Note that some people have reported problems with other Samsung receivers. But this one's been great.

But let me pose my own question: Is anyone getting Comcast HD on the poverty plan? If I remember, this is the $10/month plan. So with the HD service & receiver, wouldn't this be $15/month?

Anyone hear any sort of update about the WB? They get a crew yet or are they still waiting?

No updates on WB since my last post, Pat said he would notify me as soon as things were up and running.

Has anyone been getting any picture breakup from KGW the last few days? I've been having very minor, momentary breakups that are widely spaced (every half hour or so maybe). Not a complete loss of signal like a dropout though. With my new Sony box I can hit one button on the remote that superimposes a little signal strength bar at the bottom of the screen, but of course even with it being that convenient by the time I hit the button the breakup is gone and the signal shows strong. Just wondering if they're having a problem that I should alert them to or if it's on my end?

ron

good to see you roarbj. The RCA DTC100 seems to be a popular set top box. They're going on ebay as low as $200 (but usually b/c of low feedback or something amiss with the box) and usually sell for between $250 and $350. Also, nearly all boxes, I've discovered, will take OTA signals, even if they're for the dish. The search I use on ebay that I find most effective is: (Receiver,Tuner,Decoder) +HDTV

craig: I have the "poverty plan" it's actually about $12 a month. Then another $5 for HD. Originally, this included abc, pbs, espn, and INHD I and II. But, my wife said she got a call two days ago from Comcast saying that they were taking the ESPN and INHD I and II off. I haven't had a chance to check and see if that really happened or not (not too worried about it since I couldn't get their box to work with my pj anyway).

I also have the the Sony box and been having breakups lately. Very good signal strength then it drops to bad just for an instant but enough to cause breakups.

Originally posted by sladewatts
good to see you roarbj. The RCA DTC100 seems to be a popular set top box. They're going on ebay as low as $200 (but usually b/c of low feedback or something amiss with the box) and usually sell for between $250 and $350. Also, nearly all boxes, I've discovered, will take OTA signals, even if they're for the dish. The search I use on ebay that I find most effective is: (Receiver,Tuner,Decoder) +HDTV

So Slade, any luck returning/exchanging your unit? Are you on the air yet?

craig: I have the "poverty plan" it's actually about $12 a month. Then another $5 for HD. Originally, this included abc, pbs, espn, and INHD I and II. But, my wife said she got a call two days ago from Comcast saying that they were taking the ESPN and INHD I and II off. I haven't had a chance to check and see if that really happened or not (not too worried about it since I couldn't get their box to work with my pj anyway).

Couple more questions, for a friend of mine who wants to get HD:

Is INHD as the name implies - all HD material? That would be a bummer if they dropped that. Any idea if they'd make that part of the standard plan or would you have to go for the (shudder) digital package?

And does the Comcast box let you get OTA DTV (VSB8) or does it only do cable DTV (QAM)?

well, I have a rather bizarre deal worked out with the otherwise less than cooperative seller of my box. I'm re-selling it on ebay (although being more honest about it's struggles than he was) and he's going to comp me whatever it sells for less than the $150 I bought it for.

I'm currenlty looking for another one on ebay--although it seems prices are up a bit--probably b/c of Christmas and upcoming football playoffs (I'm guessing).

the INHD is all HD material. I'm sure they making you get the digital plan to get it. I've noticed on their radio ads that they say you can add HD to your digital cable package for only $5/month. I'm guessing they are trying to trick/force people into using a digital package to get HD. But, I'm also guessing that there is some rule that doesn't allow them to do that with the local networks (or perhaps channels you would be getting from whatever cable package you have in standard def).

The Comcast box does not let you get OTA signals (I had that fantasy too, as it would be a cheap way to go OTA @ just $5/month).

Has anyone heard any definite plans from KPDX/UPN about going HD? Are they planning on upgrading that station along with KPTV/FOX next fall?

When I corresponded with the head engineer for the two stations last week to see about getting the 30-2 signal back up in time for 24 I also asked about the current status of their plans for retooling their head end for HD this summer. He sent me a nice response which sounded hopeful but not without much reservation. I'll check with him to see if it's OK to post it here for everyone.

ron

roarbj: FWIW, I have been using a Zenith HD420 STB since Sept. with pretty good results. It doesn't have a bunch of exotic features but has been quite reliable, I think. Around here, and with OTA HD in general (since it's pretty much in infancy), you never know when your equipment is being problematic or if problems are from the source, IMO. I chose the Zenith because it was reasonable at $350 from CC and I didn't want to commit to a non-OTA package at the time but did want to see what OTA HD looks like at my location and with my equipment. Now, I am seriously thinking of dumping my 7-year D* regular service in favor of Dish with their new 811 and their free multi-room installation. Then I could get OTA in 2 rooms (if I get another digital TV :-) - don't tell the wife!) or sell the Zenith on eBay (that would be the wife's preference).

Also, I sent an email to Pat Shearer. engineer at KWBP, to see if their HD equipment would be up and running in time for them to carry the KTLA HD feed of the Rose Parade. But now there seems to be some thought that CBS will carry it in HD. I hope someone does for us OTA-only folks. That would be awesome!

Bob

Originally posted by R11
When I corresponded with the head engineer for the two stations last week to see about getting the 30-2 signal back up in time for 24 I also asked about the current status of their plans for retooling their head end for HD this summer. He sent me a nice response which sounded hopeful but not without much reservation. I'll check with him to see if it's OK to post it here for everyone.

ron

I started another thread before I saw Ron's e-mail with the link to this one... oops. At any rate, here's my (long) update (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=339850) on what's up with KPTV & KPDX

Thanks for posting the info Ed. We'll all keep our fingers crossed. As I mentioned in my email to you, if there's anybody in particular you feel would be a good candidate (station GM perhaps?) for us to send our encouragement and positive reinforcement to let us know.

ron

Originally posted by R11
Thanks for posting the info Ed. We'll all keep our fingers crossed. As I mentioned in my email to you, if there's anybody in particular you feel would be a good candidate (station GM perhaps?) for us to send our encouragement and positive reinforcement to let us know.

ron

Have to make sure to tell them how us DTV types are non-discretionary spenders. :)

Not only that, but I watch more commercials in DTV than ATV, since the Replay doesn't do DTV. And those 12' ads do make an impression - even when they're muted.

Now they just need to do targeted adverts for us. Exclusively home theatre equipment, iPods, and pizza ads... :p

Ed: That's a very insightful view for us all to have. Thank you.

I'm not sure what the proliferation of HD upgrades might be that have been made across the country at network OAOs or independents, but there has to be some kind of business model those station managers, engineers, sales teams, etc. have been using to get their funding. At this stage of the game, IMO, there must be history and it shouldn't have to be approached like something that has never been able to be justified. Certainly, financial considerations (expenses, revenue, financial backing) are very different market to market and station to station. These are lean times for everyone and I am grateful for the extent to which some providers have delivered HD to us.

It looks like the networks have been successful in getting some underwriting by major corporate players like Home Depot, Sears and Zenith. I wonder whether a local underwriter could be found? Chelsea, Magnolia (hmm, part of BestBuy now -maybe not), SAIF?

As far as adoption by the marketplace for HD programming, except for us OTA-only viewers, these's gotta be data at D*, E* and now VOOM and Comcast of how many of their subscribers are getting HD. Doesn't Neilsen tap into those sources? Heck, D* should be able to tell anyone exactly what I have watched over the past 7 years.

Thanks again, Ed. Keep pushing for us!
Bob

I can guarantee you that the "business model" that 99% of the stations use (at least the ones in our group) is "we don't want to look bad to the community." I know of very, very few companies making any money on DTV broadcasting at this time - except companies like Sony, Mitsubishi, Philips, etc.

And as far as the ratings for the satellite and cable companies - same problem. Sure, they can tell you how many subs HAVE the service, but there is no data on what they are watching. Ratings are based on shows, not stations, not services, but shows. We sell advertising based specifically on how many of 'X' type of people are watching 'Y' show. That's all broken down in to 18-39 males, 25-50 females, etc., etc., etc...

Even Magnolia can't tell me how many of their customers who have bought HDTV sets are watching "NFL Football" versus how many are watching progressive scan DVD's of "Fight Club"...

It is, honestly, one of the more bizzare "business models" I've ever dealt with. :)

Yes Ed, any day now you will be able to tell your boss that PDX WB is shaming you in the community with their brand new 1080i signal! :) Hopefully Nielsen will get their act together on DTV as soon as they are purporting.

ron

Glad to see you back Ed. FYI, I also watch more DTV commercials than Analog, just because the picture is so darn pretty. Enterprise in HD would be awesome!

I understand the business issues, but it still seems a shame that KPDX - the first TV station in Portland and first UHF station in the country - looks like it will be one of the last stations in the area to adopt HDTV.

How about a true-life story from the trenches, Ed? As I mentioned earlier, I have been getting D* Total Choice pkg for 7 years. I also have Comcast very basic for locals and subscribed with D* for locals when the Comcast signal for KGW was in the tubes at the start of the last winter Olympics. I kept the D* locals until I bought my HD STB and stabilized that setup. I only keep Comcast because my house is prewired for cable to 4 rooms and the D* is set up for only one. All the time prior to HD, I almost never watched a network drama, sitcom or anything besides news and sports. I had even drifted away from the NBA and NFL until playoff time. Before HD I had never viewed West Wing, CSI or any of those other perennial Emmy winners. I think I watched Friends twice.

Since turning on my HD receiver, I have become a true fan of WW and really enjoy the others primarily because they come in such beautiful pictures. I think I have watched more network HD entertainment programming in the past 4 months than ever before. And that doesn't count my continued devotion to sports - boy, you can't beat football the way CBS presents it in HD! Yes, I have watched the World Series and Fox football games presented in WS even tho I had no other interest in the game/teams. You see, these offerings fill my widescreen TV without stretching.

So why have I changed my habits so radically? #1 is because I'm a cheapskate and want to be sure I get full utility from expensive things I have bought. But I think the real reason is that watching anything in HD is a magical experience. And if you can't present it to me in HD, I probably won't opt to watch it.

I started a "Comcast HD in Portland" thread for those with this service. I think it would be a lot easier if we separate the cable and OTA discussions.

What's easier about that? Much of what is discussed here pertains to the PDX market and it's broadcasters in general. Why would you want to split that up?

ron

Ron, I would like to see them split. I have no interest in Comcast mainly because I can't get it, never will and I despise cable. I think it belongs in it's own thread. Let's keep this one dedicated to OTA so we don't have to wade through the Comcast clutter. Just my $.02.

Personally I have interest in HD in general for the Portland market and there's usually hardly any traffic on this thread anyway. But whatever. Maybe we should just have separate threads for OTA only, Dish/OTA and DirecTV/OTA along with the one for Comcast then :D.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by craigpratt
[B]You can see some of my earlier posts, but I'm getting all the local stations with a Samsung SIR-T151 - $225 off ebay. Note that some people have reported problems with other Samsung receivers. But this one's been great.

Could the perceived problem with Samsung receivers be because there are so many of them in the field? If there are 10 times more Samsung receivers, there would probably be ten times more problems. How does the SIR-T150 compare to the SIR-T151? It looks like I can get the SIR-T150 for less than $200 on Ebay.

You're crazy if you buy the Samsung T150 !! Both my neighbor and myself have it and we both hate it. Forget watching ABC - unless you don't mind listening to garbled audio. If you want to unplug the T150 about a dozen times , it will clear back up for a hour, maybe.

If you go to the HDTV Hardware Forum (www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&forumid=25) and search around a bit you will find lots of info good and bad about the various receivers.

ron

Originally posted by edwardewilliams
I can guarantee you that the "business model" that 99% of the stations use (at least the ones in our group) is "we don't want to look bad to the community."
Maybe we could get some local Trekkies to picket the KPTV studios demanding to see "Enterprise" in HD. :D

And of course I meant KPDX studios. Man, I am having trouble dealing with this FOX/UPN affiliate switch!

Originally posted by roarbj
[QUOTE]Originally posted by craigpratt
[B]You can see some of my earlier posts, but I'm getting all the local stations with a Samsung SIR-T151 - $225 off ebay. Note that some people have reported problems with other Samsung receivers. But this one's been great.

Could the perceived problem with Samsung receivers be because there are so many of them in the field? If there are 10 times more Samsung receivers, there would probably be ten times more problems. How does the SIR-T150 compare to the SIR-T151? It looks like I can get the SIR-T150 for less than $200 on Ebay.

I have a T-151 and it works good enough for me. I don't have any of the issues others have talked about with the T-150. It will have issues with major drop outs when it gets too hot, so make sure that it has lots of ventilation.

Reply to my question of whether KWBP will carry Rose Parade in HD. It looks like there may be some hope for CBS/KOIN-DT to carry it - for those of us who don't get Discovery-HD - and rely on OTA.

"I'm sorry to report that we will not be airing the Rose Parade this year.
Also, as much as I want it to happen, I doubt we will be broadcasting HD
before then anyway. We are now at the mercy of the weather to get a tower
crew to install our new microwave dishes at our studio and Sylvan sites.
They can't fly an 8' dish 350' up the Sylvan tower if the wind is blowing
and you know how Oregon winters are for wind. We are also third on their
list of clients with major tower jobs so I can't tell you when it will
happen. Keep your fingers crossed and thanks for watching Portland's WB.

Pat Shearer, CSTE
Chief Engineer
KWBP-TV"

Bob

Anybody having trouble getting KATU? I just hooked up a replacement Dish 6000 (last one went belly up), and I can't get KATU's digital broadcast. 0% signal strength - like it is not broadcasting at all. Hope I get this figured out in time for the Sugar Bowl.

I just checked and the cartoons are coming in loud and clear on 2-1. My hookup is OTA with Zenith HD420. Getting ready for NFL on KOIN-DT at 10:30.

Bob

We just bought a Mitsubishi HDTV (WS-65513), with integrated tuner.

We get KATU, KOIN, KPTV, KPDX, and WB with OTA DTV/HDTV. This is more than we expected, since we are 28 miles due west of PDX, and KOIN analogue OTA is barely discernible !

So, if we can get these 5 signals OTA, what keeps us from getting KGW and OPB ?

Is it our location (signal strength, direction from antenna farm), or is it our tuner (Mitsubishi tuner doesn't decode KGW or OPB, perhaps), or ???

Depending on the answers that show up, we might have hope of receiving all locals with (for example) a Zenith STB ?

New antenna ? We have a big honkin' outdoor antenna (VHF/UHF) stuffed in our attic, with active preamp (and 1:4 splitter for sig distribution). If we're getting 5 good signals, are we past the sig strength hurdle ?

I'm new at this, so don't assume I'm NOT ignorant ! I won't be insulted.

Having said that, I'm a EE design engineer, with several years under my belt at Tektronix TV Test & Measurement products, and several years of service on some SMPTE digital standards committees, so I have SOME understanding of SOME fundamentals!

Thanks very much, in advance !

-- Bob Elkind

Bob Eklund,

Welcome to the wonderful world of HD! I have a couple of thoughts for you - one is that OPB only broadcasts on 10-1 (or 27) from 8-11PM so if you are looking for a signal at other times, you'll not be successful. KGWDT is on 46 and maybe your antenna is weak at that frequency but being as you do get KATU (43) that seems unlikely.

Does your set have a way of reading signal strength? If so see what it shows for 46 in relation to the ones that come in well. Also you might try running straight from the antenna without the splitter to see if that helps, and/or without the amp. You could be overloading the tuner.

Have fun!

Yes, welcome, Bob. Your expertise will be valuable to us! There IS programming on OPB-DT today (Trail Side just started but it's not HD) that you should be able to receive. I believe OPB and KGW share the same antenna, Or that they are so close together that antenna direction would not be an issue. Alanp's suggestion about splitters and amps is a good start. Besides that, an overly aggressive signal may need to be attenuated.

There may be other effects depending on whether you are using an indoor or outdoor antenna setup. Have you been to www.antennaweb.org It will give you the correct compass points for aiming from your location for each PDX signal. There are lots of other discussions in other threads that may be helpful, too. Good luck!

Bob

Hi all,

I'm located in Canby and will be getting an HDTV set shortly. Will I be able to get the PDX OTA signals without a roof antenna?

Thanks,
-Buzz

welcome buzzman. Go to the antennaweb.org site referenced in the above post and you can find out. I would guess you should be abel to with a large enough antenna.

Originally posted by Buzzman59
Hi all,

I'm located in Canby and will be getting an HDTV set shortly. Will I be able to get the PDX OTA signals without a roof antenna?

Thanks,
-Buzz

Hi Buzz,

I have a topographic map and it looks like you have a fairly straight shot to the West Hills of Portland where the towers are located.

However, you are a long way from the towers and you may need an outdoor antenna to get the gain you need to receive the HD signal.

If you do need an outdoor antenna don't spend a lot of money on so called HDTV antennas. A regular UHF antenna will work fine.

Good Luck.

PS. As a side note. KGW has been having some issues with one of their HD transmitters which causes a lower output at the antenna. Their hoping to get it tuned soon.

Originally posted by bob elkind
We just bought a Mitsubishi HDTV (WS-65513), with integrated tuner.

We get KATU, KOIN, KPTV, KPDX, and WB with OTA DTV/HDTV. This is more than we expected, since we are 28 miles due west of PDX, and KOIN analogue OTA is barely discernible !

So, if we can get these 5 signals OTA, what keeps us from getting KGW and OPB ?

Is it our location (signal strength, direction from antenna farm), or is it our tuner (Mitsubishi tuner doesn't decode KGW or OPB, perhaps), or ???


-- Bob Elkind

Bob, Congrats on the new TV. I have a WS-55613 and receive all the channels available in Portland, including KGW and OPB. Because of this I think I can safely say that the problem isn't the tuner in your TV. All the channels broadcast some form of DTV all day so it shouldn't matter when you try to get them.

I live in Vancouver so I can't say anything about your ability to receive a signal from the towers.

Good luck.

TitanTV is listing the Oregon vs. Minnesota Sun Bowl as being broadcast in HD. Anyone know if this is true.

Originally posted by bob elkind
We just bought a Mitsubishi HDTV (WS-65513), with integrated tuner.

We get KATU, KOIN, KPTV, KPDX, and WB with OTA DTV/HDTV. This is more than we expected, since we are 28 miles due west of PDX, and KOIN analogue OTA is barely discernible !

So, if we can get these 5 signals OTA, what keeps us from getting KGW and OPB ?

Is it our location (signal strength, direction from antenna farm), or is it our tuner (Mitsubishi tuner doesn't decode KGW or OPB, perhaps), or ???

Depending on the answers that show up, we might have hope of receiving all locals with (for example) a Zenith STB ?

New antenna ? We have a big honkin' outdoor antenna (VHF/UHF) stuffed in our attic, with active preamp (and 1:4 splitter for sig distribution). If we're getting 5 good signals, are we past the sig strength hurdle ?

I'm new at this, so don't assume I'm NOT ignorant ! I won't be insulted.

Having said that, I'm a EE design engineer, with several years under my belt at Tektronix TV Test & Measurement products, and several years of service on some SMPTE digital standards committees, so I have SOME understanding of SOME fundamentals!

Thanks very much, in advance !

-- Bob Elkind

Hi Bob,

Welcome from another Western Washingtion County viewer!

You may want to take a look at the URL in my signature. I apologize for the HP spectrum analyzer. ;)

Note that KGW-DT and KOPB-DT are on the same tower, the "two-headed" one that's the northernmost of the DTV towers by a bit, as well as further west than the others.

I can't get these two stations, either, with the receivers I've tried so far. But you're too far south to have the same terrain issue I have.

28 miles is nothing, if you have Line Of Sight. It all comes down to terrain and other obstructions.

I haven't been posting in this particular forum since spring, when we moved out in order to do a remodel. The RPTV just got moved back into the house a few days ago, and I'll put a new coax run to the antenna after the holiday hysteria. It's a little disconcerting to read of the difficulties KATU-DT has been having, as I always got a reliable signal from it. It'll be interesting to see if I can get WB.

Buzzman, I am in Woodburn and I can pick up all of the Portland channels with a small loop antenna, but I have to move it everytime I change channels. For a permanent solution I mounted an external Rat Shack VHF/UHF combo so I could run the signal to all of the rooms in the house since I don't have cable.

On the FOX side, I have not seen this mentioned in this thread, I finally sat down and watched a 480p game today and noticed during fast movement, there is a bluish ghosting around the players, has this been the norm for FOX 480P games?

Marissadad: I watched the Fox WS games both Sat & Sun and didn't notice any haze, although I wasn't looking for that particularly. I thought they were both pretty well presented in picture quality, IMO. KOIN's CBS feed of the Packers/Broncos was terrific, as usual.

gangrew: See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3118164
Seems we're SOL :-(

Bob

Originally posted by baloo75
Bob, Congrats on the new TV. I have a WS-55613 and receive all the channels available in Portland, including KGW and OPB. Because of this I think I can safely say that the problem isn't the tuner in your TV. All the channels broadcast some form of DTV all day so it shouldn't matter when you try to get them.

I live in Vancouver so I can't say anything about your ability to receive a signal from the towers.

Good luck.

Thanks, Baloo75. This rules out the Mitsubishi integrated tuner as the stopper. I am very impressed by your excellent taste in electronics. :D

-- Bob Elkind, eteam

Originally posted by BarryO
Hi Bob,

Welcome from another Western Washingtion County viewer!

You may want to take a look at the URL in my signature. I apologize for the HP spectrum analyzer. ;)

Note that KGW-DT and KOPB-DT are on the same tower, the "two-headed" one that's the northernmost of the DTV towers by a bit, as well as further west than the others.

I can't get these two stations, either, with the receivers I've tried so far. But you're too far south to have the same terrain issue I have.

28 miles is nothing, if you have Line Of Sight. It all comes down to terrain and other obstructions.


Your online mast project description, along with your shameful use of an HP spectrum analyser (You CAN get Tek-designed analysers, you know !), was extremely useful (despite the HP gear).

I am far enough south from you that Bald Peak partially obstructs line of sight to the towers. According to antennaweb.org, all the DTV stations are on either 64 degree or 62 degree heading. For both of us, KGW (ch 46) and OPB (ch 27) are problem channels. Both are at 62 degree heading for us. On the same heading are KPTV (ch 30) and KPDX (ch 48), yet we can receive them just fine.

So far, with the information provided by replies on this thread (have I said THANKS yet ? :) ), it seems that tuner design (Mitsubishi integrated tuner), excessive signal amplification, and antenna heading can be ruled out as signal blockers.

Your spectrum plots show OPB and KGW channels as lower energy than other signals in the same direction. This could be due to power level from the transmitter mast, or possibly line of sight challenges (hills, in both your case and ours), as the likely suspects. I'm suspicious of the hills obstacle, since KPDX and KPTV aren't affected (at least, not to the same degree) while on the same (+/- 1 degress) heading.

Does this make sense ?

Is the transmit power level data for KPDX, KGW, KOPB, and KPTV (ch 48. 46. 27 , and 30) available ? If KOPB and KGW show lower power levels than the other two, then power level is a likely suspect. If not, then perhaps my conclusion just got blown out of the water.

In any case, thanks much to you (and our AVS colleagues who also responded) for your help. Not only are you a clever and discerning group with somewhat too much money and time on our hands, but we're a handsome and charming lot, as well ! :D

-- Bob Elkind

Originally posted by Alanp
Bob Elkind,

Welcome to the wonderful world of HD! I have a couple of thoughts for you - one is that OPB only broadcasts on 10-1 (or 27) from 8-11PM so if you are looking for a signal at other times, you'll not be successful. KGWDT is on 46 and maybe your antenna is weak at that frequency but being as you do get KATU (43) that seems unlikely.

Does your set have a way of reading signal strength? If so see what it shows for 46 in relation to the ones that come in well. Also you might try running straight from the antenna without the splitter to see if that helps, and/or without the amp. You could be overloading the tuner.

Have fun!

Thanks for your reply, Alan.

I agree that antenna heading and antenna sensitivity at 46 and 27 are probably not overwhelming issues, because 48 and 30 come in OK on the same heading.

I noticed another reply from BarryO in Banks (another rural-dweller). Following his signature link, there is a description of a similar reception problem, where a signal analyser shows 46 and 27 signal strengths lower than other channels on the same heading. Assuming our situations are similar for similar reasons, it sounds like over-amplification isn't an issue either (the signals we receive are stronger, not weaker, than the ones we don't receive).

I suspect terrestrial obstructions and/or transmitter power levels are the primary causes. Perhaps an antenna upgrade might help, although BarryO's antenna setup (60 foot mast) is likely to put to utter shame anything I would assemble.

Again, thanks for your help!

-- Bob Elkind

It looks like the Ducks will be in HD on Wed. Also both NFL games on Saturday are in HD, the CBS game on Sunday is as well. :D The only playoff game that is not is from our friends at FOX who are proud to present the Seahawks and Packers in standard every day broadcast form.:mad: Oh well. On a similar note, it doesn't appear the ABC will be offering the Rose, Orange, or Fiesta Bowl in HD, but at least we get two NFL games out of them this week.

No, the Ducks are NOT in HD on Wed. See confirmation from Ken H. here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3120322

Too bad!

I saw that thread but they were talking about the Rose Bowl, the Ducks are in the Sun Bowl. Or did I miss something from your link? The KOIN site has it listed as HD. Also, CBS says it will have all the AFC playoff games in HD as well as the Super Bowl.

http://www.cbssports.com/u/cbs/sports/news/122303hdtvsuperbowl.htm

How about here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=333164 ? See especially the posting of Bob Ross who is some exec at CBS and later confirmed by Ken H.

CSB only has one bowl game this year and it's the Sun. That was my point when I started that thread that it would be a shame for CBS to not do it in HD as they only had one chance/opportunity. But I guess they have opted to concentrate on their bread and butter, the NFL.:mad:

Bob

Is anyone else getting frequent video freezes on 30.1 and 30.2 (Fox)? This has been happening to me for some time but don't see anyone saying anything about it. Is it only me?

Before last night, I haven't watched tv for about a week, but last night I noticed glitches while watching the 11:00 news. I thought it might have been from upgrading my drivers and app for my MyHD. I didn't notice it during Leno, but I didn't watch for too long. I'll look more tonight.

Off-topic alert

Thanks to all on the OTA reception info for Canby. I couldn't find a proper forum on dealers so I figured I'd ask here. Does anyone know of good dealers in the Portland area, with good service policies and competitive prcing. I'm looking into Pioneer & Mitsubishi

Thanks,
-Buzz

Off-topic alert

Thanks to all on the OTA reception info for Canby. I couldn't find a proper forum on dealers so I figured I'd ask here. Does anyone know of good dealers in the Portland area, with good service policies and competitive prcing. I'm looking into Pioneer & Mitsubishi

Thanks,
-Buzz

Originally posted by Buzzman59
Off-topic alert

Thanks to all on the OTA reception info for Canby. I couldn't find a proper forum on dealers so I figured I'd ask here. Does anyone know of good dealers in the Portland area, with good service policies and competitive prcing. I'm looking into Pioneer & Mitsubishi

Thanks,
-Buzz

Well... right up the road from you is Fry's. I got a smokin' deal on a Mitsubishi WS-65513. They carry most of the Mits line, I'm not sure about Pioneer.

Fry's has their quota of "underqualified" sales types. Go to the video dept., and ask for Alex. He's in his low 20's (guessing), but he is a straight talker, he knows way more than average, and he actuallly *helped* me (I didn't have to have my shields up, if you know what I mean).

Now, about Fry's service... Do they have any ?

The delivery/install guy is GOOD. He's careful, he'll converge the set (which will need to be re-converged in a few weeks, anyway), and he'll give you useful advice. If you can wangle free delivery thrown into the deal, that's worth a bunch. The 65" set I bought was well over 300 lbs.

Speaking of extended warranties... Fry's types get BIG commissions on selling these. If you decline (we declined), you have another 90 days in which to change your mind. Alex (sales guy) did a pretty good job of selling us on the extended warranty...

Did you know Mitsubishi has their own extended warranty program ? You have to CALL THEM to find out about it! At the 1-year anniversary of the purchase, you can buy an extended warranty from them for up to 5 years (and the term starts at the END of the original 1-year warranty, so there's no overlap $$). At the end of the 5 years (which is the end of the 6th year of ownership), you can "re-up" for another 5 years. The cost is (I believe) reasonable. I haven't checked into the details, terms, etc. I probably should, but I'm too busy watching NFL in HD !

Oooops, I may have gotten too far off-topic here. Hopefully this is useful, or perhaps this belongs in a different forum/thread.

-- Bob Elkind

While were kinda off topic. Does the snow cause any reception problems while using a satellite dish. I have always wondered.


Happy New Year Everyone!

Originally posted by gangrew
While we're kinda off topic. Does the snow cause any reception problems while using a satellite dish. I have always wondered.

It's not been a problem for me. We do have occasional sat reception probs during brief heavy rain downpours (i.e. "rain fade").

Happy New Year Everyone!

You, too !

It's funny, since the USC game is in SD today, I experimented with how to get the best possible picture on my projector and it turns out that using my JVC 30K's Analog tuner fed via component and passed through Native gave me a better picture than KATU's SD digital feed! Hooray for digital TV. With the snow I am getting awesome Analog reception today.

I have a question about time-shifting in the Portland DTV market: I have a JVC 30K and really need to be able to record some HD content. I've read about all the problems with Samsung STB's and the Portland TV stations so I would like to know if my best option would be to get a MYHD card for my PC or is there a cheap STB on the market that has firewire out? I don't want to go over $400.

Thanks.

Thanks Bob - do you mind telling me how much you paid? Was there a sale or just a negotiated discount. I understand the forum has a 'no price discussion' rule so you can email me at buzz@canby.com

Thanks,
-Buzz

I use a Fusion I card. It has worked very well for me. You cannot pause live TV with it but it does record nicely. I don't know if I would recommend it because it seems that the software can be buggy for some. Personally I have had more problems with the software for my All-In-Wonder 8500dv card than the Fusion. The nice thing about the Fusion is that it uses the DVI output of my video card to send a signal to my projector.

Marissadad. I have a question about time-shifting in the Portland DTV market: I have a JVC 30K and really need to be able to record some HD content. I've read about all the problems with Samsung STB's and the Portland TV stations so I would like to know if my best option would be to get a MYHD card for my PC or is there a cheap STB on the market that has firewire out? I don't want to go over $400.

I have the MYHD 100 and the JVC 30K and had a lot of good luck with it. The MYHD 120 has a slightly better tuner in it. With the newest beta software, you can up-convert DVD's to 1080i. You need additional software such as "ANYDVD" or " Region Free". They have been real good at constantly updating the software. It's pretty easy going to and from the JVC30K. With HDTV2MPEG2 you can edit out commercials and archive to tape.

Steve

Hi Guys, I picked up my new PJ yesterday, the Studio Experience 2HD (Sanyo Z2 clone). Let me tell you, it is incredible. It is much better than the XGA DLP unit I was using from work (no more rainbows). I've been watching lots of HDNET, DiscoveryHD and HDNET MOVIES since I installed it and I am in awe at the PQ of this PJ.

I would like to invite anyone in the Portland area to drop by and take a view if you'd like. I will be in football heaven this weekend. It also makes the local digital channels look much better, so now I can't complain as much about how bad SD looks ;-)

Fox Sports Northwest on Dish is the generic feed from Seattle. When the Blazers play on Fox we see high school football from Tukwilla.

Does the Fox Sports feed on Direct TV show the Blazers or something else?

Originally posted by scottcorinna
Fox Sports Northwest on Dish is the generic feed from Seattle. When the Blazers play on Fox we see high school football from Tukwilla.

Does the Fox Sports feed on Direct TV show the Blazers or something else?

This is from the blazers website:
Fox Sports Net Channels

Our fans who subscribe to the satellite services, DirecTV and Dish, can find our Fox games on the following channels:

DirecTV - channel 648
Dish - either one of 5 channels between 445-449.
web URL: http://www.nba.com/blazers/news/Fox_Sports_Net_Channels_Update-92625-41.html

Also, see this note:
The originalFox Sport Northwest is on channel 426, however, the Blazers games may be place on any of the five alternate channels operated by Dish Network (445-449). The remainder of the month they can be found on:
12/5 - 447
12/9 - 447
12/16 - 448
12/20 - 447
12/23 - 448
12/29 - 446

Fox Sports Northwest will provide a monthly list for the remainder of the season to keep you updated. If you are having any trouble receiving the signal, the Dish Network customer service number is 1800DishNet (1-800-347-4638).
(URL: http://www.nba.com/blazers/news/Blazers_December_Satellite_Inf-92216-41.html)

And here is TV broadcast coverage schedule:
http://www.nba.com/blazers/schedule/200203_Broadcast_Schedule-53696-41.html

xsrsmithx

I have the same set up with MyHD to watch DVD's. "Finding Nemo" was amazing on my Monivision. I time shift all the time, most CBS fare; CSI, CSI Miami, Without a Trace. I clip out the spots and get a full hour episode in about 44-minutes.

OK, so i ditched the old CRT big screen in favor of the new panny LCD. I couldn't be happier with the picture on DVD's and std cable.

Im going to pick up the new LG 3100A sometime in the next few weeks. I've been reading what you guys have been saying for some time, but I'm still not sure I understand some OTA broadcast issues.

I apologize if these questions seem elementry, but I do not have previous experience with HD. If you could correct me, or direct me to a URL that may clear up the questions I'd very much appreciate it.

Do I understand that the local station only broadcast in HD part-time? If so, is it generally only during primetime? Is there a local guide that tells you what/when these HD broadcasts occure?

Thanks in advance,

LZ

LZ, about 70% of the primetime shows are HD. Almost no non-prime shows are HD. Late-night should be mostly HD in the coming year or so; right now I think its just Leno.

The main issues with OTA center around getting a good line-of-sight to the towers on Sylvan Hill. I've mapped the towers HERE (http://bbauer.gomen.org/pdxdtv.htm). Its all UHF, so forget the rabbit-ears.

If you're in a location that can't get OTA (or don't want to mess with it), you can get HD locals on cable for $5/month (except CBS, some sort of contract issues). If you have digital cable, that'll also get you ESPN & two InHD channels.

Hey guys,
I'm at work right now and am starting to freak out a bit because I am planning a superbowl party but I only have comcast digital cable, with HD. The superbowl is going to be on CBS right? That means no HD superbowl for me?

Yes, the Super Bowl is on CBS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=341764) (KOIN) this year.

Call KOIN and complain about their holding out on Comcast!

Anyone know anything about the issue KOIN is having with Comcast?

I think you can find out a lot about the CBS situation here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=340133&highlight=comcast+cbs

There are other relevant threads in the forums, as well. Use the search tool.

Bob

Thanks,
I found out more on the Portland Comcast HD thread. Time to organize a revolt.

www.hdtvgalaxy.com has a list of all programs that are going to be in HD for the next few upcoming days. I notice on the list all the HD channels we are missing because a couple of select stations are taking their own sweet time with getting HD up and running.

I was watching football this weekend and had a lot of drop out on FOX's 30-2 station, anyone else or is it just me and my location?

I watched a good portion of the Packers/Seahawks second half Sunday and it seemed fine to me on 30-2. As well as Malcolm in the Middle Sunday night (although it seems the network didn't send it in WS).

Just about 7:25 this morning as I was getting ready to shut off the TV to leave for work KATU (2.1) and all the KOIN digital stations went out at the same time. Anybody know if they are on the same tower?

ron

I think KOIN and KATU are the same tower, though, I am not sure.

Originally posted by Led Zealot
Do I understand that the local station only broadcast in HD part-time? If so, is it generally only during primetime? Is there a local guide that tells you what/when these HD broadcasts occure?


Try titantv.com, after you put in your information (i.e. OTA v. cable, location) it gives you a channel listings (like TV Guide), but it includes a HD next to all HD content.

Originally posted by hilladen
I was watching football this weekend and had a lot of drop out on FOX's 30-2 station, anyone else or is it just me and my location?

Now that the new shows are back on, I've been noticing glitches in the Fox picture. I was noticing it a lot during the local news on 30-1, but I watched 24 on 30-2 and didn't notice any. All the other channels for me are pretty good.

(It was kind of interesting last night that just before 24 at 9PM, the local news "storm coverage" was on 30-1, but The Simpsons was on 30-2. Nice to have that choice.)

They have 30-2 dedicated to the Fox "480p" network feed so it has no local programming. They have definitely been having some issues with 12-1 though. What I get is stuttering video. It's OK if you're just watching short term for the weather on the news or some thing, but I sure wouldn't suffer watching any shows through it though.

ron

30-02 is a direct feed from the L.A. station, that's why they put up the FOX logo during local commercial inserts.

My antenna is completely covered in ice and I'm surprised it hasn't affected my reception at all. KATU's signal is a little weaker yet KWBP's is a little stronger. The rest are exactly the same.

Surprisingly, my Analog reception has been perfect, even KATU!

Hmmm, now KATU has dropped into the mid-60's. It'll probably get back to the mid-80's once it heats up and the ice melts. Odd how no other stations were affected for me.

Originally posted by R11
They have 30-2 dedicated to the Fox "480p" network feed so it has no local programming. They have definitely been having some issues with 12-1 though. What I get is stuttering video. It's OK if you're just watching short term for the weather on the news or some thing, but I sure wouldn't suffer watching any shows through it though.

ron

I've seen the video stutter on both 12-1 and 12-2. It's so bad that I switch over to Dishnetwork. I also noticed on Fox the other night when I was watching the local news on Dish that the scrolling news bar at the bottom was stuttering also.

I watched a lot of FOX during the Ice Storm (I had 4 days off work) and didn't see any stuttering. I remember awhile back, the 6000 had a stuttering issue but it was fixed. I do have an issue with HDNET occassionally with the picture "jumping", as though they are freezing a frame or two then jumping ahead to catch up. Has anyone else seen this on HDNET?

SCROLLING NEWS BAR :mad: !!!! All the schools are closed!

I just had no picture on the Colts/Chiefs game, but there was audio. Must of been KOIN having the issue, because the signal went totally away, then came back and there was video. I'm having a superbowl party and there's going to be some ticked people in my house if this happens during the game. :-)

captmorgan09 -

That just happened to me too, but on standard feed DirecTV (channel 6, not HDTV). They just displayed a logo Indianapolis/KC for a couple of minutes and it sounded like they were talking over the stadium microphone. Lots of echo. Seems to be fine now for me.

Same here, for a short time. It cleared when I changed back & forth to KOIN.

Anyone notice any problems with the Packers/Eagles game on FOX yesterday (1/11)?

I had a lot of what appeared to be data drops. But the signal strength indicator was way beyond what's usually necessary.

BTW, running a Samsung SIR-T 151. Haven't had a problems before this. But I don't watch a lot of FOX either.

I wasn't able to watch the Packers/Eagles game, so I can't comment on that. But, I did watch the Chiefs/Colts game and had the same video problems others described. When I came back from half time the video was gone, I went to the other TV to watch and about 5 minutes later my son told me the video was back.

I picked up another Samsung, by the way, but this time got an SIR-T100. So far, so good (just received it yesterday and watched both games on CBS as well as about 5 minutes of Alias). My signal meter is about half way up, is that adequate? I do get ocassional glitches--pixalation mostly--would an amplifier get rid of these?

I had the same problem with the Chiefs/Colts game.

I also was unable to watch the Pakcers/Eagles game OTA. I would get siganl strength of 93% - 100% and a picture for a couple of minutes and then it dissappear for a couple minutes then come back. It wasn't the one or two second drops it was strong then gone.

BTW, Samsung SIR-TS 160

I'm in Salem and I haven't been able to receive KOIN for several days now. I haven't moved my antenna and I still get all the other channels I was getting with great signal strength. I haven't had any trouble with reception since I finished my antenna setup many, many months ago.

I have a Zenith HDR-230. I shut it off and unplugged it for 10 minutes. Turned it on and rescanned all the channels and KOIN is still missing.

Is anybody else having trouble with KOIN?

Thanks
Brian

Can't speak for the time since the CBS NFL game on Sun. but Navy CSI is coming in loud and clear right now. That is OTA on Zenith 420.

Bob

Edit: Oops, NCIS;)

If you are having trouble with KOIN it could be with the schedule they include with the signal. I remember reading about it a few pages ago in this thread. I would suggest looking back through the past postings to find when someone described that situation.

Maybe I spoke too soon. At about 9:40 I lost the KOIN signal (OTA - Guardian) for about 2 minutes. Then just the picture returned but no audio for about another 2 min. Anyone else?
And now, at 10:00, KGW DT switched off the Blazer game for Law & Order. Strange local pre-emption.
Can't believe the Blazers didn't foul to stretch the game, and now it's tied!

Bob

I've looked around and everything I've seen leads me to believe that KWBP is broadcasting in HDTV, but the only signal I've been able to get on 33.1 is DTV (480i)....am I missing something here?

I'd love to watch Smallville in widescreen HDTV....

WB is sorta in HD. They have all the gear in place except for the microwave receiver up at the tower. They have HD in the studio but have no way to get it up to the tower. Once the microwave receiver is installed they will be 24/7 HD. They will upconvert all programming to 1080i. Right now they are only passing through the analog signal at 480i and the lip sync is way off. Pat said they were about 3rd in line a few weeks ago and with the snow and crappy weather, it may not be until Spring when it's installed. Read the back pages here and you will find my last post about the status.

Anyone else have some pixilation during ER? I'm trying to determine if this is a source problem or a reception problem.

thanks!

It happen all over the country. I am in San Antonio,Tx and the same thing happen here on the Time Warner cable(during the football games that is)

Slade, I watched ER after CSI and I don't recall seeing any pixelation on my set.

ron

Does anybody have Lee Wood's phone number or email address? I need to contact him about the problem I'm having with my Zenith HDR-230 not receiving the KOIN signal. Zenith said I should contact the engineer at the station because they think it might be related to the PSIP data stream. I just want KOIN/CBS back :(

Help.....

Here is a link to his public email (http://pub1.ezboard.com/bdigitaltelevisionhdtvforum.showUserPublicProfile?gid=leewoo d)

Thank you very much!

I hope he doesn't mind me contacting him. I think KOIN may have changed their PSIP software or made some other change in the signal and that's why my Zenith HDR-230 no longer picks up KOIN. Just a theory. I had a problem with a JVC 30000 DVHS deck not being able to record KOIN last year when using the Samsung SIR-T165 and that was related to the PSIP data.

I really miss KOIN/CBS HDTV.

Does anyone have any news on KOIN going DD 5.1? It's been about a year now since we heard the upgrade was coming.

I think DD5.1 for KOIN falls in the same category as them getting a completely stable signal. Not enough money to accomplish either. Maybe next fall when Nielsen starts (hopefully) counting us digital viewers the engineers at the various stations can make better cases to their managements to upgrade all their DTV equipment.

ron

I cannot record CBS 6-1 here in Vancouver, WA. The signal meter is exellent on it and the rest of the channels, and I can watch all the channels perfect, and record all but 6-1.

I have the SIR-T165 tuner along with the jvc 30k dvhs recorder. Does anybody else have this tuner along with this dvhs recorder in the Portland area?? What could my problem be, or is it a problem with the PSID in 6-1 confusing the jvc machine?

Would the new FireBus program that allows a sir-t165 to play and record video onto a pc, would that allow me to record 6-1 if the problem with this channel is a PSID problem? (i cant test this out for myself as they've halted the new beta tester activations.)

If I choose to get the best UHF antennas here in the Portland, OR area, would it be possible for me to pickup abc, cbs, and the other stations further south of portland/salem?

I understand that the WB and UPN are not in 720p or 1080i in the portland area, but are there any towers transmitting these in high definition lower in Oregon?

I have seen screenshots of Smallville in widescreen, along with Enterprise in widescreen, both 480p widescreen and 1080i widescreen. Could I get these if I invested in the best long range antennas for OTA? If I got HDTV Cable or Satellite could I get UPN or WB in at least widescreen?

I had the Samsung 165/JVC 30000 combo last year and had the same problem. I could watch KOIN/CBS but couldn't record it. At that time (early last year), the problem was due to the Samsung having problems with the PSIP data stream. It was never resolved so I sold that equipment and bought my Zenith HDR-230 recorder/receiver. The Zenith worked perfectly until a couple weeks ago. Now I can't see or record KOIN/CBS. I think it's once again related to PSIP. I sent an email to Lee Wood the station engineer but I haven't heard from him yet. He was very helpful last time I had problems. I sure hope he responds because Zenith says I need to contact the station engineer before they will help me. Looks like the Super Bowl won't be HD this year

Very, very frustrating. CBS has 75% of the HD programming I watch and now my screen is blank. All the other HD stations are fine.

BTW, I don't think the Salem stations are broadcasting HD yet - at least not the last time I checked.

ah, interesting. Opps I mispelled the PSIP earlier, heh. Well, that sucks you can't even watch cbs anymore. I hope lee woods contacts ya soon to get this resolved. Its important they know that this PSIP deal is a problem that is affecting a lot of us, otherwise we'll be blindly waiting for a day that will never come.

I do wonder if there is a CBS station within 120 miles from portland in 1080i, and if it could be picked up and locked in on a zenith or samsung tuner. I got tiered of entering in a dozen addresses into antennaweb.org in surrounding cities to figure it out, hehehe. Wish there was an easier way.

Originally posted by Lee Wood
<Cloaking Device Off>

Folks,

The Samsung SIR-T351 will not decode KOIN-DT successfully. Why only KOIN? The problem has something to do with the PSIP that KOIN transmits that confuses the Samsung unit. PSIP includes the Program Guide data, presently unique to KOIN; as well as other program related information such as DTV Standard 708 Closed Captioning, again, unique to KOIN; SAP and Descriptive Video sound channels, also unique to KOIN. What will happen in the future as other stations add these services is unknown.

We have had our PSIP stream analyzed by Triveni (a unit of LG Electronics), the vendor, (and independently by a Tektronix engineer at his own interest) and have been able to confirm that the KOIN PSIP stream is in compliance. That determination was forwarded by Triveni to Samsung engineers in Korea last summer when the 351 first hit town. I have tried to contact Samsung through both Triveni and the NAB Office of Technology with no luck. This is unfortunate.

If you are able to contact Samsung (several viewers have) you will be told that KOIN needs to upgrade its PSIP to Standard 2.0 or greater. There is no such thing. ATSC Standard A/65B is the current standard. The KOIN PSIP meets all requirements of the current ATSC Standard as confirmed by two sources separately.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

Lee Wood
Director of Engineering
KOIN-TV / KOIN-DT

<Cloaking Device On>

To Samsung owners:

Here is Lee Wood's last response to the Sammy PSIP problems. He posted this on 12/5/03. The threads here are very easily searched to see if particular issues have been addressed before. ;)

Bob

bertschb, what do you mean by the Salem stations? There are no stations in Salem. The WB's Analog transmitter is somewhere West of Salem up on a hill, but the digital transmitter is on Sylvan Hill, right next to all the other Portland digital transmitters.

From reviewing some of the posts in threads about the CBS AFC championship game, I get the impression that the pregame show was produced by CBS in HD. I did not get HD from KOIN OTA until the game started at noon. It was a surprise to me, therefore, to see that the postgame show was in HD. If anyone can confirm that the pregame show should have been carried by KOIN in HD, I will send a polite email to KOIN and ask that they closely monitor the CBS HD schedule for the Super Bowl in 2 weeks so we don't miss any HD content before or after the actual game just because we happen to watch from Portland. I wonder if they automated the "switch flipping" to HD to coincide with the game time?

FWIW, KOIN has been very responsive in the past to emails about their HD programming. I encourage others who have observations about KOIN's performance to let them know your comments at koinshows@koin.com

Bob

I was interested in knowing if anyone has had any success picking up any of the DTV OTA channels in Brightwood, Welches area and if so, what type of equipment they are using. According to the antennaweb.org site, the only digital signals seem to be PAX and WB oddly enough out of Salem, whereas the analog signals for the other networks are from Portland. I do have a mountain just north (Zig Zag mountain) and a lot of very tall trees, so not sure what type of success I will have and do not want to put much time and money into it if it is not possible. Thanks.

Ken, WB Digital is out of Portland, right next to all the other Portland towers. Antennaweb must have faulty information, the Analog transmitter is closer to Salem.

I'm asking a HUGE favor of anyone in the Portland Metro area: I've sent my SE 2HD into Boxlight for repair due to severe vertical banding and they say it doesn't have a problem (go figure!). Does anyone in the area have a Bravo D1 DVD player or an HD STB with DVI out that I could test my 2HD with? I can bring it to your place or you can bring it to mine. I need to see if DVI has the same issue or not. Posts in this Forum lead me to believe that DVI may decrease the visibility of the VB effect. If anyone can help me out, I would sure appreciate it.

Thanks,

Darrell

I thank Darrell for putting me onto this Portland Thread. I live in Salem (2 miles east of Lancaster off State St.) and have been enjoying ota HDTV from Portland for over 2 years now. Hooked up to the big Radio Shack uhf/vhf antenna with rotor. I have the old RCA dtc 100, a Toshiba 65' HDTV, and 4dtv c-band with HDD 201 hidef decoder in my home theater. Hope to upgrade to Z2 lcd projector soon. Love a big high quality picture! Wife gave me the living room for home theater about 10 years ago. Recently retired and really enjoying it. Will be lurking and posting as I get to know issues.

Harley

Does anyone know what the current situation is with UPN's HD feed?

Sorry, I don't know anything about UPN's HD feed other than it's not HD yet.

Does anybody out there have the Zenith HDR-230? If so, can you receive KOIN/CBS from Portland? My 230 isn't receiving KOIN and I need to know if anybody else can with that unit.

Thanks for your help

Hi Harley,

I'm down the road from you a bit in Albany. Have you tried pointing your antenna
towards Eugene and picking up their OTA broadcasts I'd be interested in knowing
what Salem can pull in from both the North and the South.

Sitting in Albany, I pull in ABC, NBC, and PBS solidly from both Porltand and Eugene
(Well the 2nd PBS is from Corvallis).

However, I'm having trouble with CBS both from Portland and Eugene. I could get
Eugene nicely last summer, and Portland occasionally. But it is harder now for some reason.

Also, what are your experiences with FOX, UPN, WB from either/both markets?

Shawn in Albany.

Originally posted by harmil2
I thank Darrell for putting me onto this Portland Thread. I live in Salem (2 miles east of Lancaster off State St.) and have been enjoying ota HDTV from Portland for over 2 years now. Hooked up to the big Radio Shack uhf/vhf antenna with rotor. I have the old RCA dtc 100, a Toshiba 65' HDTV, and 4dtv c-band with HDD 201 hidef decoder in my home theater. Hope to upgrade to Z2 lcd projector soon. Love a big high quality picture! Wife gave me the living room for home theater about 10 years ago. Recently retired and really enjoying it. Will be lurking and posting as I get to know issues.

Harley

Well all, I think it may be time to give up on comcast just in time for the superbowl. I'm looking at getting a samsung OTA receiver (refurb) for a little over $200. I will probably also get the zenith uhf (zhdtv-1) indoor antenna. I only live 11 miles from the dtv broadcasting points.

Just can't deal with comcast anymore.

sithead: What are your issues with Comcast? I have been waffling over whether to go with them or switch from DirecTV to Dish for my other-than OTA HD programming. My house is wired for the cable source and I have only one outlet/receiver for D*. With Dish I would get the 3 room treatment free.

BTW, I have great line of sight to the towers (4 miles?) and use the Silver Sensor with good success. I have to reposition it every now and then (I keep it in the room near the TV) depending on the station and strength of signal. I usually use an attenuator to damp the strong signal to prevent multipathing.

Bob

sithead, you're more than welcome to pop over to Woodburn and watch the SB at my house. I have a 720p projector on a 110" diagonal screen-it looks awesome. PM me if you're interested.

In Woodburn we have a podunk cable outfit and I cut my cable line so I could feed my 61.5 dish indoors. I doubt they will ever offer HD.

Darrell

Bob, for $5, I guess its not that bad. I'm just sick of waiting for the local channels to be squared away. INHD and INHD2 have some very cool nature shows, but The Brain Game?!! c'mon man! :D

Darrell thanks for the offer, but I've already invited a bunch of people to my place for the SB. I'd invite you too, but it would be pointless given the setup you have!!!

Well, it looks like I may not get the OTA setup I want due to lack of Spousal approval. Looks like will be watching the SB on 48" diagonal with the GWIII, out of a possible 60" :( and no HD, not even DTV

Hey guys, check out this (http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm) new antenna, pretty cool, huh?

I apologize if my post is derailing this thread but I would greatly appreciate information specific to PDX OTA HDTV as well as either confirmation or correction in my understanding of some of the issues involved.

My specifics are.....
According to antennaweb I am between six and seven miles from the towers with one group at a 260 degree azimuth and the other group at 263 degrees.
I have a 37 element RS rooftop antenna w/ RG-11 from the antenna to the house and RG-6 inside to the TV (toshiba 34HFX83), I have direct line of sight to the towers.
My roof has an incredibly steep pitch so I'd rather only go up once to "aim" the antenna. heh!!
Given the relatively short distance to the towers and the overkill on the antenna, would the 3 degree separation (1.5 if I split the difference) cause any issues with reception?

Secondly, I'd also appreciate comments on STB's.
I have no need for an STB that has either integrated sat or cable capabilities. A stand alone HD tuner would fit my needs perfectly.
I have both a component and a DVI-D connection available for the box.
Because of the issues I've read concerning Samsung and KOIN I'm reticent to choose one of them and I've read mixed reviews on other brands.
I also realize that often people only post when they are having problems and many times it's hard to tell who isn't.
So within your experience, what STB's are the least problematic here in PDX?
How well do RCA's or Mits perform here?
I'd like to keep the cost around $300 (or less) w/ $500 max.

Thank you for any light you may shed,
Earl

Welcome to the thread, Earl. I am currently in your same demographic, i.e. OTA only in close, direct line of sight to the towers. But my compass sets are at 10 and 13 degrees. I have tried just one STB and it has performed fine for me. It's the Zenith HDV-420 which I picked up at CC in open box (heck, there was NO box but all the parts were accounted for) for $350 last summer. I think it retails for $399. It does not have DVI out but the component out to my Sony 46" WS is doing quite well. All the locals come in just fine, including KOIN. I use the indoor Silver Sensor with good results. (See my earlier post above on antenna use.) They say if you can get good results picking up analog UHF signals, you should have no problem getting HD. You can probably find STBs for less on eBay. Good luck!

Bob

Hey earletp,

As far as reception issues in PDX, it seems the problems are either multipath or high power. It sounds like you have a a fairly directional antenna. So it might be good to consider picking up an attenuator - if you want to be prepared.

I'm not sure what's up with the various Samsungs. But the SIR-T151 I have gets KOIN w/o issues - PSIP and all. So this is an inexpensive way (within your budget) to get OTA HDTV - so long as you don't require DVI. The only problem I've ever had is with the NFL playoff games on FOX - which many people seem to have problems with (should check that).

I can understand there being PSIP interoperability problems. It's by far the most complicated part of ATSC. But the problems are apparently model-specific with the Samsungs.

Thank you both for your comments!!
Before I began my HDTV odyssey, having to much signal is one aspect that had never crossed my mind.

From what I've been able to gather, at least at this time, there is little reason to choose DVI over component. That includes the cost of the cables, which also seem comparable. So I'm not hooked on a preference there.

Earl

Hi Earl,

You might want to check out the LG LST-3100A stb. It does OTA HD and clear QAM, and connects up with everything including dvi. LG's products have replaced all the zenith stbs. The LG 8vsb tuners are supposed to be the best available today.

********************* has this box on sale 349 delivered. You might also be able to get an avs discount if you ask for it just right.

Don't discount dvi connectivity. A very good dual link dvi-d cable from Pacific cables goes for around 20 bucks.

Good luck which ever way you go,

Lew

Hi Lew,

Thanks for recommendation and the heads up on *********************
I'm putting the LG box on my short list.

I haven't discounted DVI, it's more where I place it on my list of criteria.
Number one is that the box is able to receive ALL the local channels and secondly that it can do it with the least amount of problems, dropped signals, ect.
If I were looking at two different boxes and one was more stable, not having DVI would not be a reason to reject it.
If it does that and has DVI, so much the better. :-)

Thank you again,
Earl

Originally posted by Marissadad
Hey guys, check out this (http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm) new antenna, pretty cool, huh?

NOT. 4.5 dBi gain (only a little better than a simple dipole), 60 degree beamwidth. 'will be good for those with line of sight, but this is not much of an antenna.

Originally posted by Marissadad
Hey guys, check out this (http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm) new antenna, pretty cool, huh?

Saw this at CES a few weeks ago.

Pretty.

Seems to be optimized for installations where unsightly antennae may draw undo attention.

Mike