KGW go bye bye again, been that way all day.

It is back again for prime time. Did it go down in order to swap out the plasma conduit (or whatever it was) so OPB could get their part (that viewers like you help buy) back.

Perhaps writing a little note for each time a channel does something would be a great way to increase my post count... ;)

Here's a question about the "squeezed" signal.

My roof top is about 900 feet lower than the base of the towers with pretty much line of sight.

I know when I'm driving on Cornell eastbound from Cornelius Pass Road that I have to look up slightly to see the towers.

The question is: Should my antenna be pointed slightly up ? Or is this meaningless at this short distance or any distance for that matter?

tia

Lew

Originally posted by lewlew


The question is: Should my antenna be pointed slightly up ? Or is this meaningless at this short distance or any distance for that matter?

tia

Lew

You're so close I wouldn't worry about aiming. The only thing to be concerned about would be too much signal. An indoor antenna should work just fine.

Thanks Scott,

I have an RS uhf/vhf antenna on my roof and this signal is split between my t165 and 3410a.

I would get minor drop-outs and wasn't sure if the problem was mine or the locals. I registered 13 to 15 bars on the samsung and just into the "good" on the LG.

So, I put one of those big pre-amps on the mast at the antenna. The samsung jumped up to 17 bars and seems rock solid. The LG otoh, swamped out. I had to put a line splitter AND the 10 db adjustable attenuator in that line. Now the LG measures to about the middle of the "good". If I try to turn it up further it swamps out.

I was hoping to get a little steadier signal without using the pre-amp.

Guys,

Check out this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=395782

The parent companies of KOIN (Emmis), KATU (Fisher), KPDX (Meridith) and KPTV (Meridith) are developing a scheme whereby most of the bandwidth on an OTA DTV station would be allocated to a pay subscription service. If you recall, FCC regulations require a station to provide only one SD video program stream; they can do whatever they want with the rest of the bitrate.

I wonder what this means for the future for receiving CBS, Fox, UPN and ABC network HDTV in Portland?

Actually, that is not what Jeff Smulyan, CEO of Emmis Communications, proposed at the NAB. You can hear a replay of his press conference at: http://www.visualwebcaster.com/event.asp?id=22141 BTW, I was there.

What is proposed is to equip stations with advanced HD Encoding so that the HD program will fit within 13 Mbs (which is what KOIN normally does now). A lot of progess has been made in MPEG coding beyond the 7-year-old technology that the early adopter stations are currently using. With look-ahead encoding even sports should fit within 13 Mbs. HDTV compression is frequently running at 12 Mb or less on cable and satellite systems.

Smulyan is a strong believer that HDTV content is one of the drivers for over-the-air television. He says so several times in the press conference.

So, HDTV IS still there and it is still free.

What is proposed is to use the remainder of the space, roughly 6 Mbs, coupled with advanced encoding, either MPEG-4 or Windows Media 9, to enable stations to send out 4 or 5 SD programs from cable/satellite networks. By putting the space of six to eight stations together you can get 30-40 SD program options.

This is meant to go for the low end cable subscriber who doesn't want or need the 70 or so channels of cable expanded basic for $45 per month and would be satisified with fewer choices for $25 per month. Estimates are that up to 15% of the audience would go for such a service. The basic STB would be somewhere between $99 and free. (It would cost less for the local broadcasters to give away STBs to 15% of the viewers than it did to build the DTV stations.) DVRs would also play into the business model.

So, don't get into a snit just yet. Broadcasters are just looking for a way to compete in the multi-channel world.

Thanks for the additional info, Lee. 'doesn't sound anywhere near like the dire picture Rich was painting.

Too bad it looks like there's no way the main channel could get switched over to MPEG4 or WM9. Being cast in regulatory stone, I guess we're stuck with MPEG2.

What is proposed is to equip stations with advanced HD Encoding so that the HD program will fit within 13 Mbs (which is what KOIN normally does now).... What is proposed is to use the remainder of the space, roughly 6 Mbs, coupled with advanced encoding, either MPEG-4 or Windows Media 9, to enable stations to send out 4 or 5 SD programs from cable/satellite networks. By putting the space of six to eight stations together you can get 30-40 SD program options.So Lee, if KOIN were to begin using their "extra" bandwidth beyond the new high zoot compressed HD signal for the proposed OTA multichannel consortium arrangement, there'd be no room for the free OTA SD 6-2. What would all those people with the burn-in prone displays do then?

Sorry, just couldn't pass it up :D


The question that always comes up in my mind every time I read about these proposals is this: Will people actually pay for any OTA feed? I mean, sure OTA DTV can be better than analog for people in prime locations, but reception problems are still an issue for a large segment of people. In fact, that is one of the main reasons people went to cable in the first place wasn't it? Plug and play. Look at the number of people posting issues right on this thread trying to pick up good signals... It's hard for me to see people paying for a service that they had to mess around with an antenna in their attic or on their roof to receive. And are the minimum service packages from cable/DBS not in that ball park price range already anyway? These current plans just seem like a bit of a stretch and somewhat redundant to me. Don't get me wrong, I understand the desire to capitalize on the DTV situation, and personally don't have a problem with that as long as the ad-supported OTA HD is still in place. But I just think a better plan that offers something original and a little more unique needs to be drummed up to make it feasible. Maybe it's just me...

ron

Originally posted by R11
It's hard for me to see people paying for a service that they had to mess around with an antenna in their attic or on their roof to receive.

I guess you better let Echostar and Hughes/Fox know the bad news. ;)

But seriously, if this is a paid service, it might justify professional installs, like the DBS guys do now. OTOH, it's always hard to break in to a market as the #3 provider: it means you have to compete on price. The phone companies that talk about providing video over VDSL or fiber have the same problem, BTW.

Ron, Barry,

Yes, there would be no room for 6-2 and the masses of 4:3 set owners (myself included) would have to figure out something else to avoid burn-in. (I would have to buy an old DTC-100 that let's you zoom the image, I guess.) However, there would still be room for an NCAA Multicast and other fun stuff.

The market research says that there would be a market for a low end pay service. In a national survey 49% of the households said if the STB was free they would go for a $25 per month service. That drops to 27% if the box costs $99.

The worst reception case is where transmitters are not clustered. Fortunately that is not a major issue in Portland. But, to address that there would be professional installation as USDTV is doing in Salt Lake and thier other markets now.

The big thing to remember is you DO NOT have to lose HDTV to use improved technology to provide additional services. They really can co-exist.

I'm a little surprised that networks aren't thinking about developing a system to sell subscriptions to the channels they own. They could eliminate the middleman entirely. I mean ABC stations could sell Disney channels, NBC could sell A&E, CBS could sell some of the Viacom channels and so on. Why bother with a stupid free weather channel no one will watch? They'd all just have to agree on a standard subscription and encryption system and one STB could do it all. Uh well it could happen.

I'm sure there's a dozen other obvious reasons that won't happen.

the masses of 4:3 set owners (myself included) would have to figure out something else to avoid burn-in.
I don't understand the issue, Lee, just run a downconverted signal via S-Video and let the TV do the stretching. The 6-2 signal is so bad anyway, is it really going to make a difference whether or not it's seen via S-Video or component?

I don't have an S-video feed. My set has the ATSC tuner built-in. Fewer buttons - happier wife.

Wow, a 4X3 set with a built in ATSC tuner. I didn't even know anybody made one...

ron

Originally posted by R11
Wow, a 4X3 set with a built in ATSC tuner. I didn't even know anybody made one...

ron Of the 115 Integrated DTVs listed in the CEA's Spring 2004 edition of their HDTV Guide there are 7 4x3 models:

BenQ H200 - 20" LCD
Samsung TX-P2771H - 27" Direct View
Samsung TX-P2775H - 27" Direct View
Samsung TX-P3271H - 32" Direct View
Samsung TX-P3275H - 32" Direct View
Sony KD-36XS955 - 36" Direct View
Zenith C32V37 - 32" Direct View

Mine is last year's Zenith C32V23. This 32" model fits better in my family room.

You can find the complete list in the HDTV Guide - a PDF file -
http://www.ce.org/publications/books_references/dtv_guide/HDTV_Guide_Spring_04.pdf

Interesting. I guess the tuner edict is finally coming to fruition then.

ron

Originally posted by Lee Wood
[Fewer buttons - happier wife.

;) Boy, it was well worth all the work I put into Pronto programming for the same reason. She just needs to push "TV" to watch TV, "DVD" to watch DVD's, etc.

Of course the 13- and 6-yr. olds could nagivate the old system just fine. But even though she has a BSEE, it just seems that wives have the opinion that they simply should not have to expend any brainpower to turn on the TV.

From reading the thread it seems everyone is getting Digital KGW no, but I am not here in Salem. Is it operating at full power? Are others down the valley having difficulties? I hate that "weak signal" warning on my RCA dtc100! Prior to latest problems I had been getting KGW digital just fine. Still get strong feeds from all the other Portland digital channels.

I just checked KGW and I'm getting it with about 80% signal strength.

Harley, I'm picking it up fine in Woodburn but I haven't checked the strength.

I get the wildest fluctuations on the KGW signal lately. It cycles from normal strength to no signal, making it unwatchable. Unlike other stations, the strength meter is constantly jumping around on KGW. For the first few weeks after I got my antenna it was rock solid, so I'm hoping it returns to a steady signal for me soon. If not, I'll have to keep switching to my Comcast connection every time I want to watch NBC, which is a bit of a pain.

Could there be multi-path problems down in Salem from his KGW Mr. Winfeld's signal that he is receiving? I realize it is a ways down there and the signal isn't going to be as strong as it is in the metro area. I grew up in South Salem and KGW was always had one of the better receptions (analog of course).

I'm in Salem and I've never had a problem with KGW (unless it was off the air). The only channel I struggle with at times is KOIN.

I get KOIN just fine. I've only had my antenna up since March, but I used to get KGW fine, too. If I had a multi-path problem with KGW, wouldn't I have it with KOPB also? Don't they share a tower? I don't have problems with channel 10. The problems I'm having with channel 8 now seem to date back to when they were off the air for awhile a week or 2 ago.

weird, I had to do the initial channel seek on my RCA DTC100 to get KGW programed back in. Now reception is back and just fine. Would not work just punching the key pad. Signal is steady as a rock. I too have problems with very brief dropouts from Koin. Happens 2 or 3 times for about 15 seconds every hour on average. As with the "toast always land butter side down" I have yet to experience a dropout during a commercial. ABC is also quite solid.

WB Update:

Darrell,

Thanks for staying in touch.

Not much to report except I am still doing almost daily battle with getting the microwave system working correctly. I have spent way too much time and money trying to resolve this and I still can't give a definite date as to when we will be broadcasting HD. We are now waiting for a warranty replacement part that is being manufactured in France and the shipping date is not yet confirmed.

On the brighter side, the WB Network has decided to start feeding all their shows in 1080i format. That means that they will upconvert those shows that aren't produced in HD. For you and all other DTV viewers, it means that we won't be receiving those programs in SD analog and then upconverting here in our studio. You should have better quality video on all WB shows because of this operational change on the network's part. It just proves once again that the WB Network is committed to providing the best possible quality to the viewers. :)

We will still upconvert all other content to 1080i whenever we finally get to broadcast it.

Pat

On the brighter side, the WB Network has decided to start feeding all their shows in 1080i format. That means that they will upconvert those shows that aren't produced in HD. For you and all other DTV viewers, it means that we won't be receiving those programs in SD analog and then upconverting here in our studio. You should have better quality video on all WB shows because of this operational change on the network's part. It just proves once again that the WB Network is committed to providing the best possible quality to the viewers.This is like rubbing salt in the wound ;). Pat sounds like his frustration level is beginning to peak. Hope they can get it straightened out soon for his sake. The announcement of the full time 1080i network feed is good news indeed. It should be pretty good once they finally get their HD bugs worked out locally. With CBS and then NBC and now WB doing this we're beginning to get some decent primetime DTV viewing with either HD or quality upconverts. Maybe one day we can finally get rid of those rob Peter to pay Paul SD sub channels. Quite a bit of pixelation showing up in CSI last night. Puts a real downer on the presentation...

ron

Boy, the pixelization in those daytime roller coaster scenes was excessive and I usually don't complain about those things. They almost looked like CSI flashback sequences.

I don't remember seeing any pixelation problems on the CSI boradcast. I think I would have if it was as bad as you are describing.

I saw it, during the fast scenes it was very bad.

Maybe I should pay a little more attention.

It was pretty bad during Hannibal in the opening scenes when they were shooting down on the docks. Come on Lee, can the SD channel, we need more bandwidth for the HD channel, please?

The only reason I noticed the pixelization was because it happened consistently during all of the daytime roller coaster scenes. If it had happened only once I probably wouldn't have noticed or said anything if I had noticed.

It doesn't seem fair that Comcast has been delivering an HD signal for KWBP for weeks but OTA viewers have to keep waiting. I've been switching my ATSC/QAM tuner to the cable for Smallville the last few weeks and the outdoor scenes at the Kent farm in widescreen HD are just beautiful!

The pixelzation was pretty bad in that CSI...

Okay, Okay I get the pixelation was bad.:( Will you all forgive me?

Originally posted by Richard Winfeld
It doesn't seem fair that Comcast has been delivering an HD signal for KWBP for weeks but OTA viewers have to keep waiting. I've been switching my ATSC/QAM tuner to the cable for Smallville the last few weeks and the outdoor scenes at the Kent farm in widescreen HD are just beautiful!
They are having problems with the microwave receiver, they can't get the HD signal to the tower. Be patient, Pat is working very hard on this.

KWBP is broadcasting in 1080i tonight!!!
Way cool!!! :)

Holly cow! It's true. I hope Smallville and the last episode of Angel will be in HD next week!

Everything will be in 1080i.

That is very cool!

Here's something else that's cool (at least for me). In desperation, I turned my bowtie antenna around 180 degrees so the "bowties" point away from Portland and my signal strength went up 50% across the board. What's up with that? I thought the bow ties were supposed to point towards the transmitting tower. Have I been wrong all this time? Sheeesh! Anyway, after climbing on my roof 50 times during the last few months to adjust my antenna I think I may FINALLY be done with it. I can now actually get a reliable KOIN signal. My HDTivo shows OTA signal strength in the low to mid 80's for almost all the channels I receive.

WhoooHoooo!

Everyone, please send Pat Shearer an email of thanks for getting WBHD up and running: pats@wb32tv.com

So, which shows of theirs are actually done in HD then?

ron

In desperation, I turned my bowtie antenna around 180 degrees so the "bowties" point away from Portland and my signal strength went up 50% across the board. What's up with that?

Depending on the multi-path situation at your location, the best antenna pointing is not necessarily directly at the towers. It is good to have a rotator so you can easily experiment.

Also, it is possible that previously you were overloading the input of your receiver (probably not - I see you are in Salem.) I had to add a lot of attenuation when I got my HD TiVo (my other receivers had no problems with the strong signal.)

Originally posted by R11
So, which shows of theirs are actually done in HD then?
ron
Smallville
Reba
One Tree Hill
And (I think):
Gillmore Girls
Jamie Kennedy
Like Family?

I guess we'll find out. Somewhere in AVS in the HD Programming forum, the shows were listed.

All HD shows will be passed through untouched and all others will be upconverted to 1080i.

Thanks Marissadad. That's basically what I remembered too. I saw someone post in the HD forum recently that Charmed was in HD but I was thinking he was wrong because I was pretty sure I had read previously that it wasn't. I haven't been watching any of the WB shows first run just because there are others in their time slots I want to see more. But this is good timing because now that I'll be able to get a decent picture (and dialog that actually matches the lips :)), I'll probably be watching some of them during the summer rerun season.

ron

Ron, Pat has requested that we keep him updated with any problems like lip sync since he has the ability to tweak it.

Will the season finalle of Smallville be in widescreen 1080i next week?

Also, the WB is not taking a 1080i source, then being fed in 480p widescreen, then being upconverted to 1080i is it? Sorry, but Pat's note listed earlier was kind of confusing.

All HD is 1080i from the source, all other material is upconverted to 1080i at the Portland WB station. Yes, Smallville will be HD next week for the finale'.

So with WB OTA station now working I was forced to play with my antenna until I could recieve it. SO after a little while of crawiling in my attic and then checking and then crawling and the checking and then...well you get the picture, I can get the WB. Unfortunatly, Jerry Springer is on right now but I did notice pixelation occurring while I was checking it out. My signal strength reads 100% if anyone is curious. Also, if it is all in 1080i would there still side bars to the picture? There were when I had the station on.

4:3 material will have sidebars, the show is just upconverted from 480i to 1080i. Upconversion does not make it widescreen, it just improves the PQ.

hilladen,

Sounds like you need an antenna rotator :). I remember many trips back and forth into the attic for a few weeks before I got one about 2 1/2 years ago when I was setting up my DTV system. It came in very handy numerous times as I was getting things dialed in. I still use it occasionally for minor tweaks here and there. Is the pixelation you are seeing on the WB the translucent compression artifact type or is it signal breakup (usually larger blocks with green/black coloring)?


Marissadad,

From Pat's email it sounded like the WB Network is planning on sending all their shows up from the net end in 1080i. So their non HD shows would be upconverted at the network instead of locally (which should provide a better quality upconversion). Their local programming would be upconverted here.

ron

Thanks for the clarification Ron.

I am thinking it is signal breakup but I thought I would mention it just in case anyone else notices some similar phenomena.

Ron,

I got curious about your post on antenna rotator. Where do you get one , and can it be used with any kind of antenna? Any info will be greatly appreciated. Got tired of attic trips!

HZ

Hormoz,

There may be others now but when I was looking 2 1/2 years ago the only one I could find was a Channel Master 9521A (comes with a wireless remote). I ordered it through Radio Shack for right around $100. I just did a quick search and it looks like you can pick one up off the web at various places now for $70. There's a link to one here (http://www.thesatelliteshop.net/Store/cgi-bin/quikstore.pl?store=&search=yes&detail=yes&product=126&category=Antenna_Rotators&keywords=&hits_seen=&page=default.htm&and=&affiliate_id=). Like I said, I only use it occasionally now but for $70 it's well worth the money just to avoid the set up aggravation. It really does make it nice to optimize antenna placement because once it's installed you can very quickly scan the "good" range for every station and then compare them to see where they overlap right from your couch. Doing that manually not only takes two people (or a bazillion trips up and down), but it's simply trial and error. And the thing should last forever. One thing to keep in mind, although it does have the wireless remote, you do need to run a cable between the controller box (which also houses the IR receiver) and the rotator itself. Any light three wire cable will work. Looks like you can buy a 100' length at that same site for $20. I just went to the hardware store and got some pretty cheap. Good luck if you decide to do it.

ron

Just finished watching the Angel Series finale in HiDEF. It was great. So kudoes for those responsible for getting in up in time for Angels series finale!

No drop-outs and great Pic quality! Good Job!

Rick

Yes, I enjoyed watching Angel in HD. It's a shame that it was the series finale. That only leaves Smallville and Charmed left for me on the WB.

"GRR . . . ARG."

Cris

I watched about the first 15 minutes of Smallville last night and there were a lot of compression artifacts visible; mass pixelation on fast action and the night scenes were purplish like on a poorly mastered DVD. The still & day scenes were awesome.

I've checked in a few times over the last week or so too and it's been hit or miss for me :(. Even though it always shows a very high and stable signal on the meter, much of the time there has been a bunch of artifacting and break up.

ron

Did anyone watch the West Wing last night? I noticed little white lines every now and then like I was sitting in a movie theater in the 50s not that I am actually old enough to really know what a movie theater in 50s look like but I think you get my point.

Smallville looked so much better in 1080i then 480i. And when they were broadcasting before, it looked like a bunch of light horizontal lines slowly panning across the screen. If I would have seen that in 480i along with all those lines in the prison on the smallville finale, I would have passed out from interlacing! lol.

Everwood, One tree hill, and now smallville all look stunning. Wish 7th heaven would go 1080i too, but no camera can fix bad acting.

With FOX going 720p this fall, and the WB just going to 1080i, during primetime all that leaves is UPN and every OTA channel will be in high definition!

UPN is supposed to be coming as well, I just don't know when. I wish OPB would get off their butts with more HD, they've been pretty pathetic lately.

KPDX and KPTV are owned by the same company, Meredith Broadcasting. The Director of Engineering for the joint operation in Portland, Ed Williams, has said their *plan* is to upgrade both to HD over the summer.

ron

I first tuned in to KWBP-DT OTA last weekend during the Sunday repeat of "One Tree Hill" and the picture quality was so bad I couldn't believe it. As a test, I tried the Comcast cable HD signal for KWBP and it was even worse. During the fast-action basketball scenes the picture was simply a mess of large colored squares. I turned it off and went back to the antenna connection about half an hour later and, whatd'ya know, the picture looked fine! Last night "Smallville" and "Angel" looked good also. It seems to me that "Smallville" cranks up the color saturation level. It looks great in the outdoor scenes like the Kent farm, but indoor scenes often look garish. I sometimes turn the color down, then I have to set it back to normal for "Angel" or else their faces look even more dead than usual.

LOL!

I dump Dish Network a few months ago so decided to sell my Dish 6000 which I had been using as my OTA HD STB. No problem I said to myself, I just use my old Panasonic TU-DST50 until I find a replacement solution. I've been using it this week, watched CSI:Miami, JAG, Smallville, Angel etc. However, tonight when I started watching CSI:LA, I got this commentator talking over what everyone else was saying. Then it hit me, I had forgotten about the SAP stream problem that these old Panasonic STB had. It automatically selects the highest numbered PID for the audio and you can't change it. I just started laughing.

I guess I'll have to get my replacement solution sooner than I thought. I always wanted a HTPC...

Cris

I was surprised by how grainy and soft "Gilmore Girls" looked in 1080i. I don't think it's KWBP's fault though.

There were three movies on tonight (Sat.):

ABC - 2 KATU; Fast and the Furious

NBC - 8KGW; Jurassic Park

WB - 32; The Wedding Planner

Why was ABC the only one showing their movie in 16-9? I would think NBC would show a movie like Jurassic Park in wide screen. The WB with their new set up... oh well seems like a waste is all :(

titanTV did NOT say jurrasic park would be in 1080i, but it did say fast and the furious would be. I did want to see those dinosaurs in 1080i, got the dvhs all ready just in case, eheh.

Well, the WB did broadcast a few 1080i 16:9 movies here in the portland area ever since they started broadcasting 1080i a few weeks ago. They are still broadcasting some movies in SD which sucks.

Don't expect NBC to broadcast movies in HD very often; they rarely do (I'm not sure they ever have).

Originally posted by bdb
Don't expect NBC to broadcast movies in HD very often; they rarely do (I'm not sure they ever have).
I think it was around 3 months ago, they broadcast "Shrek" in 1080i twice in one week (first broadcast was kinda messed up). And sometime late last year they did the movie "heartbreaker" in 1080i, other then that I don't think they've done any HD movies.

I check about once a month nbc.com and when i'm checking out titantv.com, I check to see if NBC has a movie over the weekend that has the "HD" symbol, and if it does, then it'll be 1080i. Shrek did look damn awsome in 1080i.

Fast & the Furious was downright gorgeous! This was only the second broadcast HD movie that I have sat through commercials to watch. Funny thing, but both of them were on ABC, the other was A Bug's Life.

One thing nice about the Voom Program Guide: They are rarely wrong with the HD designation for a show. I depend on it and HDTVMagazine for my HD info.

Is anybody else still getting breakup on WB? I flipped in a couple times over the weekend just to check and it was still going on. Nice strong signal on the meter but still problems with the breakup...

ron

The WB is coming in great for me, I'm not even having my pixelation problem anymore.

I know I should be embarassed by this, but it was nice to watch Ace Ventura last night in HD on the WB.

When it TitanTV going to fix our WB to have HD content?

Originally posted by rbonzer
I know I should be embarassed by this, but it was nice to watch Ace Ventura last night in HD on the WB.

When it TitanTV going to fix our WB to have HD content?

omg, titantv said it wasn't in HD, so I didn't bother recording it to dvhs and missed it alltogether! I hope they fix that soon, i'll just have to check when a movie starts from now on.

Why does the WB only show movies occasionally in HD anyhow?

If you have been using or want to use the DVI output on your Comcast box, be aware that the new firmware 7.10 really messes it up. The DVI output has been upgraded for copy protection and only works with a combination of on-off switching by box and TV. This is discussed in the Seattle Comcast thread a week or two ago.

I've always received great OTA reception of Chan. 46 KGW (NBC), but the last couple of days I'm plagued with a bad case of multi-path, apparently. Anybody else having the same issue?

I'm line of sight to KGW and I always get a flawless signal from them. I can receive their signal for hours without seeing even one packet error. But occasionally I'll get transport stream errors from them and sometimes I'll get lots of them during certain programs. I eventually figured out that this wasn't a multipath problem or even a reception problem. KGW was just sending bad data. I guess this can happen in a lot of ways.

I watched Crossing Jordan last night and the only problem I saw was not enough bandwidth due to the sub channel. Any fast movement caused blocking, but other than that, it was flawless. I'm lucky that where I live, I don't experience multipathing, I'm out in the Valley floor.

I know we keep hearing about KPTV (and KPDX) going HD for the fall schedule but are they really that committed? This is the most current information I can find at the KPTV website http://kptv.com/Global/story.asp?S=616165&nav=2cFv2lgj , from Jan. 2002

Quick Facts:
1. KPDX has been broadcasting a digital television signal since October 28th, 1999
2. KPDX now passes almost all Fox network programming in 16:9 and we're working toward all of it - with local commercials too
3. KPDX currently has no plans to broadcast HD programming
4. KPDX currently has no plans to broadcast multi-channel programming
5. The KPDX studio plant has the capability to broadcast any format necessary, with the appropriate hardware upgrades
6. KPDX has received its maximization permit from the FCC to go to a full 1,000,000 watts output power on DTV
7. KPDX, like Fox, believes that a clean, sharp, crisp digital picture has more value than simply "going High-Def"
8. KPDX Engineering is always looking for new ways to improve the signal and picture quality without breaking the bank

<snip>

Several objective and scientific tests have shown that about 95% of the population cannot tell the difference between a widescreen picture being shown at 1080i and one being shown at 480P



If it weren't for this forum, since the couple of e-mails I've sent to them asking about updates have gone unanswered, I would not even know they plan on passing HD this fall. It appears they are still trying to justify NOT broadcasting HD in favor of 480p.

I wish they'd seem even half as interested in the broadcasting of HD programming as I am in receiving it.

Earl(/rant off)

Originally posted by earletp
Several objective and scientific tests have shown that about 95% of the population cannot tell the difference between a widescreen picture being shown at 1080i and one being shown at 480P
Wow, I wonder where they got that? I'd love to see the details of those "objective and scientific" tests, 'cause I just don't believe it. That's like saying 95% of the population can't tell the difference between color and black & white.

They were probably switching back and forth between a very well mastered DVD and an HBOHD movie, that would explain it.

I know we keep hearing about KPTV (and KPDX) going HD for the fall schedule but are they really that committed? This is the most current information I can find at the KPTV website http://kptv.com/Global/story.asp?S=616165&nav=2cFv2lgj , from Jan. 2002Take a look at the date Ed posted that Earl. Almost 2 1/2 years ago. Much can happen in that length of time.

The now infamous quoted FOX research study which concluded that people can not tell the diff between 480p and 1080i has long been the butt of jokes in the HD Forum. Interesting that it just happened to come to the conclusion that supported FOX's interim format huh?

ron

I did notice the date, that was why I included it in my post, and you're absolutely correct, a lot has happened in the last two and a half years.
The point I was trying to support was just that, A lot has happened since then, yet that old FAQ remains the most current information on their website. They still are telling people they have no plans to go HD and they have the erroneous claim one can't tell the difference between 480p and HD.
Instead of touting the fact they are moving forward into the realm of HD and enticing and exciting viewers with more current information, they let the old/incorrect information stand as their "official" voice.

It would only take a few minutes to update the FAQ and since they haven't, it causes me to wonder about their true commitment.

Notice it was also old enough that KPDX was still FOX and KPTV would have still been UPN. :)
They didn't even update that part of the FAQ. heh!!

Earl.

Earl, I think it's more a reflection of where DTV in general is at on their priority totem pole than anything else. I don't think that's much different at any of the local stations either. At least from managements' perspective. You and I may be excited about it, but to them it's just viewed as a PITA and extra cost at this point. All for a tiny slice of their viewing public that is not even (yet) counted towards their Nielsen numbers to bring in ad revenue. You want them to promote it and get viewers excited? They think they're actually better off if you don't tune in via the ATSC feed at all :).

ron

Maybe that's how management views it, but it shouldn't be. This could and should be a marketing opportunity... embracing the latest technology and all that. Besides which, since they have to at least broadcast digital if not HDTV, promoting the technology and getting more people to buy receivers (and view advertising, and get in those Nielson ratings) is only going to shorten the time before they can start to recoup some of their costs.

After all, a previous generation of management had to go through pretty much the same thing with color, and color was being broadcast when there were far fewer color receivers than there are HDTV receivers now. And back then, KPTV was first, not last.

A large part of the problem is that currently Nielsen does not count DTV viewers. We are not helping pump up their numbers for advertising rates. This is supposed to change this fall when Nielsen has said they will begin counting ATSC viewers. Interesting that FOX just happens to be slated to begin HD operations in the same time period isn't it?

ron

I know we are viewed as an insignificant piece of the viewership pie but we can't be ignored for long. I don't know how many others are like me but I watch HD almost exclusively now. I have the DirecTV HD package as well as OTA. I very rarely watch SD and when I do it has to be something really important. The only thing I've watched in SD in the last three weeks was the Indy 500 and that was really hard to do. What a waste - and from ABC no less. Can't believe that wasn't HD.

I'd love to buy a new camcorder but I'm waiting for a decent HD model. Everything else is ...well, SD. Yuck!

Ron, I know what you say is true about the "state of DTV", but it IS coming and to let it slide so far down the totem pole it falls off, just doesn't seem right. No information is better than wrong information.

It's really all KOIN's fault, they've set a standard above the others. Their website has H/DTV information on it, they list upcoming events months in advance, they pass PSIP data and no one could doubt Lee's enthusiasm.

It is true that we could set up a poll with who does the best H/DTV in PDX and regardless of the winner, at the end of the day it won't change todays bottom line for any of them.

I know I'm only one viewer but I do find myself watching KOIN evening news now instead of one of the others and part of that has to do with my supporting them for their efforts. Get enough drips in a bucket and they add up. :)

Earl

Originally posted by earletp

I know I'm only one viewer but I do find myself watching KOIN evening news now instead of one of the others and part of that has to do with my supporting them for their efforts. Get enough drips in a bucket and they add up. :)
Earl

I agree. I watch far more KOIN HD programming than the other nationals not only because of better programming but also to support Lee. When I first set up my HD system Lee contacted me personally to help with some issues I had. I was amazed that he would take the time to do that.

Well, not to turn this into a total Lee Wood lovefest, but I think that he as an individual is the difference. He has a personal interest in DTV and HD to the point that he set up his own web site for it, and that shows in the time that he dedicates to it at KOIN. Lee's more of an HD geek than most all of us :). So we're lucky he's at the station.

But I also don't think that some of the people at the other stations aren't enthused as well. Just not to the same extent. They don't take as much of a personal interest in it so it's just more work for them. As an example (and since that's what started this), in the last emails I traded with Ed Williams at KPTV/KPDX, he made a point to say that the engineers there were "fairly enthused" about putting out some "HD pictures" after they finish the rebuild of that part of their plant. Definitely a different level of excitement. But I'm guessing that we will all be impressed by the product they will put out when they are done (even if it's "only" 720p). It sounds like FOX designed a well thought out system from end to end and they will have the huge benefit of new, up to date equipment to work with at the local level. That's a luxury I bet Lee would love to have. The new switching system they just installed so far seems to be working flawlessly. So, I wouldn't worry too much about them. Let's just hang tight for a few more months and see what comes out their pipe this fall.

ron

We could throw some of that love at Pat and KWBP, he was off working quietly in the corner and one day, POP, 1080i WB. :D

Earl

You mean no one else misses the analog/digital picture that KWBP-DT had before they got the microwave link working? I thought it was fun to watch because I never knew what I would see. Sometimes the sound sync would drift off and come back. Sometimes the screen would go completely blank for a second or two. Sometimes I could see a little ghosting in high contrast areas. It always had a little classic NTSC snow. Their HD signal is so perfect... and soooo boring!

The other night during that Jennifer Aniston movie, it looked like the old Analog upconversion was back. Does anyone know? That movie was supposed to be in HD and wasn't. The other HD movies they've shown look really nice, as do the upconverts.

BTW, I'll take a perfect "boring" picture anyday. ;-)

I just called KATU and they say the hockey game is NOT being sent to them in HD. Now where to go to complain? According to the Programming thread, all the NHL finals are in HD. ??

Bob

Oh well, what do they know at the station. It's in HD now. Sorry for the rant.

Originally posted by R11
Is anybody else still getting breakup on WB? I flipped in a couple times over the weekend just to check and it was still going on. Nice strong signal on the meter but still problems with the breakup...

ron

Yesterday I swear it was coming in great. Today I can't get it to come in good enough to hear the audio. I bought a Silver Sensor, which seems to be working pretty good. After WB started acting up, I moved the antenna all over the place, and can't get it in clear at all. According to Antenna Web I'm about 7 Miles away from the Towers. I have the Direct Tv Samsung HDTV box, and I don't think the signal meter works to well on it. It cycles between 45% and 0%. I was thinking about getting one of those Terk clip-on antennas, but no-one seems to like Terk. Has anyone tried on of those?

Muir

Originally posted by niteskie
It cycles between 45% and 0%. I was thinking about getting one of those Terk clip-on antennas, but no-one seems to like Terk. Has anyone tried on of those?

That's an indication that the receiver can't acquire sync lock. Maybe weather-related (wet leaves today mucking up the signal).

The clip-on antenna is designed for looks, not performance. From your location, a 4-bay bowtie such as the Channel Master 4221/3021, which is pretty unobtrusive, should work great if it's mounted free of any nearby obstructions.

Can someone please tell me what antenna would be best for inside a metal mobile home? I live in Beaverton and all the towers are 4-5 miles from me.

TKS Mickael:confused:

Originally posted by cyberized
Can someone please tell me what antenna would be best for inside a metal mobile home? I live in Beaverton and all the towers are 4-5 miles from me. I'm no expert, but I'd be very surprised if you got anything to work well inside metal walls. Is there a reason you can't use an outdoor antenna?

Originally posted by niteskie
Yesterday I swear it was coming in great. Today I can't get it to come in good enough to hear the audio. I bought a Silver Sensor, which seems to be working pretty good. After WB started acting up, I moved the antenna all over the place, and can't get it in clear at all. According to Antenna Web I'm about 7 Miles away from the Towers. I have the Direct Tv Samsung HDTV box, and I don't think the signal meter works to well on it. It cycles between 45% and 0%. I was thinking about getting one of those Terk clip-on antennas, but no-one seems to like Terk. Has anyone tried on of those?

Muir WB has been weird for me. Every time I've checked in during prime time hours it's been just fine. But this weekend I flipped by on Sat morning and got the same thing as before. Nice strong signal on the meter, but audio/video breakup again. It makes me wonder if they drop their power down during off hours, except that the signal reads strong though...

ron

Speaking of the WB, I noticed the guide had information on 32-1's programming. It seems that Pat (I believe) is really making an effort to create a top notch HD channel.
As for people having problems, I have not been having problems with the WB's signal for a while so perhaps the issues are on the receiving end.

Anyone watch the first game of the NBA finals last night on KATU HD? I was getting all kinds of corrupted video. It was very annoying as I would miss the end of a play it was so bad. My signal strength for that channel was running between 68-74. I am trying to figure out if it's my antennae or something KATU was doing.

I recorded the 2-1 HD feed downconverted to my SVHS deck. When I watched it later last night it was fine.

ron

I watched last night's game OTA and didn't experience any problems that I recall. The only thing I thought was how much better the production by CBS of the NCAA basketball games was than what ABC is giving us. I am only getting HD OTA so I cannot compare any other BB from ESPN or TNT. But I think the ABC/CBS difference is quite noticeable.

I also don't see what the big flap is all about for the bluriness that others are saying about the ABC Stanley Cup games. Once again, my experience has been very good.

But it will be a fine day when ALL of the cameras at a venue are sending an HD signal. The camera shifts for a fast-paced game like hockey are very annoying when the format changes constantly. The best yet has been the Super Bowl and even that had a couple of SD cams. Now that I think about it, maybe the best HD coverage of actual sporting competition from beginning to end of the competition was Saturday's NBC coverage of the Belmont Stakes. One HD camera caught all the action from beginning to end!!

Bob

The ABC game had no WOW factor. CBS definitely has a better production. ABC wasn't bad, it just wasn't the WOW factor of most live sports. I noticed what looked like a lot of compression artifacts or video noise on long shots, the closeups were very nice.

I did not have any breakups during the game.

In regards to the NBC Belmont coverage, that was the worst PQ I've ever seen of live HD coverage.

Originally posted by Marissadad
In regards to the NBC Belmont coverage, that was the worst PQ I've ever seen of live HD coverage.

Yeah, but my point (TIC) was that at no time during the race was the HD coverage interrupted by some handheld SD shot of a celebrity. The director faithfully held to the HD pickup. Can't wait for the continuation of the HD/SD switcheroo tonight for the NBA finals. But as they say, some HD is better than none. ;)

Bob

Are you sure all the cameras were HD? Some of them looked pretty bad, like they were widescreen SD upconverts.

Bob, I haven't noticed any of the momentary blurriness that others in different cities have been complaining about either. It would seem that either KATU doesn't use the Flexicoder, or they have it set correctly to avoid the problem. Last nights final Stanley Cup game looked a bit better overall to me than the previous two. Since I watched the first NBA finals game off a recording I'll be interested to see how game two looks in HD tonight.

ron

I have some good news and some bad news. First, the good news. For the past few weeks we have been trying to isolate and resolve the problem with the breakups, total freezes, etc. with out OTA signal on KWBP. I even borrowed a $20,000 MPEG analyzer from one of the other stations owned by our group in hopes of resolving these problems for good. So today, I received an upgrade kit for a fix of our transmitter that might be the cure. And no, we don't reduce power at any time, the problem is with the MPEG data going from the microwave system to the transmitter.

Now for the bad news. Unfortunately, when we turned the power back on to the transmitter after putting in the upgrade parts, another board in the transmitter failed and now we are off the air until a replacement board shows up. We are awaiting word on when the board will arrive but I expect it here sometime tomorrow. We'll get back on the air shortly thereafter. Sorry about the lack of WB in HD in the meantime.

On another note, in response to the the comments about strong signal level but still not getting a good solid lock on the signal, with digital, it's not just about signal strenth. Sometimes what works is to put an attenuator pad right at the receiver to reduce the signal level. Too much signal can be bad for the receiver too and there is also the matter of too much noise. By putting an attenuator at the receiver input, you allow the best possible signal to come down the cable and then the pad reduces the noise and the signal thereby giving your receiver a clean signal to decode.

Radio shack sells these as part number 15-1258 for $3.69 or you might find them at other stores that sell antennas and accessories. The RS unit is only 6dB and what I have found works best is to use 12dB or 20dB. We buy them from Norvak Electronics. At our analog transmitter site (about 42 miles from the DTV site) we have a 12dB pad on the receiver and it made a big difference in the reliabllity of the reception. At that site, we have our analog antenna broadcasting 5 megawatts on channel 32 while we are trying to receive channel 33 digital. Talk about a worst case senario for reception!!!

Also, thanks for noticing the program guide info. We actually have an automatic system in place that loads the data into the system once a day (unlike KOIN where it is done manually). I can make manual changes if need be, but the content of the program guide is generated by our programming department who sends it to Tribune Media Services who supplies it to TV Guide and local papers and back to our DTV system. Pretty cool how all this stuff works once you get over all the hurdles and get the systems talking to each other.

Pat

I sure wish KGW would get the guide info on 8-1 to be available on DirecTv.

Thank you for the information Pat, Good luck getting it fixed quickly!!

Yes, thanks for the update Pat. It's interesting how often various boards etc seem to blow on these systems. I assume the same things are always happening on the analog side as well but are just "covered up" by redundant systems? I was thinking most of your equipment was relatively new...

As far as the issues I've seen on WB, I'm not so sure an attenuator would help me as I've been getting all the other PDX digitals without problem for nearly three years now. I think what I've been experiencing has just been the problems you've hopefully (keeping fingers crossed) fixed with the upgrade kit. Thanks for the good work.

ron

Originally posted by Pat Shearer
Also, thanks for noticing the program guide info. We actually have an automatic system in place that loads the data into the system once a day (unlike KOIN where it is done manually). I can make manual changes if need be, but the content of the program guide is generated by our programming department who sends it to Tribune Media Services who supplies it to TV Guide and local papers and back to our DTV system. Actually, KOIN is using Tribune Media data now too (yahoo, no more manual entry unless needed). It would be nice if KOPB and KGW would add guide data since they already have the equipment to do it.

Pat, I'm not sure I understand the attenuator role. It's seems counterintuitive that a signal can be *too* strong...isn't the goal 100% signal strength?

I live in Beaverton, near Cooper Mountain, only about 10 miles from downtown and with a pretty clear line of sight to the hills of NW Portland. I only have some RCA "digital" rabbit-ears, but I get a great clean analog signal with them. For HDTV, it's so choppy that it's unwatchable. I've tried it with my Zenith STB, as well as a MyHD PC card, with essentially the same result. So, how can I tell if I need a bigger attic-antenna, or a weaker signal that an attenuator could give me?

Thanks.

-tony

Tony, I asked the same question a few months back and it seems the only way to know is through trial and error.
Fortunately Radio Shack has a variable attenuator Part# 15-678 (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?MSCSProfile=745D84CBF04D14A48AA6FF9C89D722C0BA68 C1B04FE384678A5285FCD6E056B17AF21627FDABE316B90B3C038D68EBD6 B7F9F3BD1712EAA9951ACB2590A05C6517EFE46941FEFDD1985D4EFD6321 F5E70B4DE9B6C1D45512DCD9FB3DBCACB947988B40772984F4944748F9AD 74D6A598570F0E240AC03D36ECAD6B7778B274521873FA510CC234FB&cookie%5Ftest=1&catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-678) that's only $8.99 and it ranges from 0 - 20 dB.

I'm on the other side of the towers and only about 6 miles away with a direct line of site and attenuating the signal helped for me. I have an LST-3100A STB and a Silver Sensor.

Earl

I'm on Bull Mtn. and the 10dB attenuator that came with my Zenith 420 STB is a permanent fixture on my line-in. Without it I would get continual breakups. I tried the RS variable and got mixed results. I also use the Silver Sensor.

Bob

The reason for the attenuators is to reduce multipath interference. Signals can bounce off of anything moderately reflective (glass buildings, cars, wet leaves); if your signal is strong, you may be picking these up as well. With analog, they show up as ghosts; with digital, they're errors.

A directional antenna (e.g. silver sensor) also has a bit of an advantage in our situation, where the towers are fairly close together.

To bad UPN couldn't show "Blade Runner" in HD tonight! That would have been great! Sad.

It's seems counterintuitive that a signal can be *too* strong...isn't the goal 100% signal strength?

A strong signal can overload the input electronics producing a distorted signal. As I reported on the TiVo fourm a few months ago, the HDTiVo is very easilly overloaded. I had to add nearly 20dB of attenuation while my other HD receivers had no problem.

Remember that the signal strength reported by an HD set-top is really the signal quality -- not the strength.

But:
I live in Beaverton, near Cooper Mountain, only about 10 miles from downtown and with a pretty clear line of sight to the hills of NW Portland. I only have some RCA "digital" rabbit-ears, but I get a great clean analog signal with them. For HDTV, it's so choppy that it's unwatchable. I've tried it with my Zenith STB, as well as a MyHD PC card, with essentially the same result. So, how can I tell if I need a bigger attic-antenna, or a weaker signal that an attenuator could give me?

I don't think you have overload with those receievers. Be sure to test your analog reception with Channel 49 or other UHF stations. If you see ghosting or if the signal comes and goes, you need a better antenna.

If the RCA "digital" rabbit ears have a built-in amplifier, you should consider getting an antenna without an amplifier.



On an unrelated subject, any news about FOX's HD upgrade?

Ron,

You are right about the redundancy in our analog system covering up these types of problems. Our analog transmitter on ch 32 is fully redundant with almost no single points of failure in the system. However, that is not the case with the DTV system. We have single units in most cases and a failure of any one of those magic boxes can bring down the whole system. Even just a reboot of some of them can take up to a couple of minutes since they are mostly just industrial computer systems running specialized software.

By the way, the module I received on Friday did not fix the transmitter so the factory had to make another shipment which did not arrive until 7:21pm on Saturday. I picked it up at the airport and headed to the Sylvan site. After installing the pair of modules, we had to go through a warm-up and then a detailed alignment procedure before actually putting the transmitter on the air. It was back shortly after 10pm.

Unfortunately, it looks like our original problem with the breakup and freezing video was not cured. Anybody else notice that? I'm now waiting for the return of the $20,000 analyzer that I borrowed since it crapped out after I had it running for about 4 hours. I had to send it back to the factory so they could fix the software installation that was all messed up. Don't you just love Windows?
------------------------------------
Tony,

The comments are correct about the use of an attenuator. Unfortunately, the signal meter on the receiver does not always tell the truth. We have 4 different brands of receivers here and they all require different attenuators for stable pictures. You just have to experiment and see what works. Good luck.
Pat

Unfortunately, it looks like our original problem with the breakup and freezing video was not cured. Anybody else notice that? I flipped by this morning as I was checking the weather on the local stations and sure enough, WB was doing the signal break up. It seems like the only time I've noticed it is during the day and not during the primetime hours which have been stable whenever I've checked in.

ron

I'm looking into setting up for OTA digital broadcast but I'm confused about a few things. I do have a HD television set.

I thought the boardcast are in digital format but not necessarily in HD. Do the stations boardcast both non-HD and HD materials over the same channel?

I am learning about the so-called HDTV tuner/decoder. But why is it called HDTV tuner/decoder? This is relating back to my first question as to whether non-HD and HD materials are both boardcast depending on the source material. Should the equipment be more properly called a digital tuner/decoder?

I currently have cable (but not HD). From what I gathered there are a couple of Samsung tuner/decoders that can hook up both OTA and cable at the same time, and then the source is selectable. Is that the way to go? Specifically the T151 can only hook up to one digital source?

A more general question is what tuner/decoder are you having luck with?

Thanks.

DC

Originally posted by digitcallous
I'm looking into setting up for OTA digital broadcast but I'm confused about a few things. I do have a HD television set.

I thought the boardcast are in digital format but not necessarily in HD. Do the stations boardcast both non-HD and HD materials over the same channel?

I am learning about the so-called HDTV tuner/decoder. But why is it called HDTV tuner/decoder? This is relating back to my first question as to whether non-HD and HD materials are both boardcast depending on the source material. Should the equipment be more properly called a digital tuner/decoder?

I currently have cable (but not HD). From what I gathered there are a couple of Samsung tuner/decoders that can hook up both OTA and cable at the same time, and then the source is selectable. Is that the way to go? Specifically the T151 can only hook up to one digital source?

A more general question is what tuner/decoder are you having luck with?

Thanks.

DC


Welcome to the world of digital TV.

Yes your first statement is correct. HDTV is digital but not all digital is HDTV.

The stations have the option of splitting up their digital bandwidth into as many channels or parts as they choose. Most choose one or two channels. Down the road when the stations figure out how to make money at it they will add other services within the bandwidth.

The local Portland stations broadcast in all sorts of different ways. Channel 2 (digital channel 43) broadcast only one digital signal and it is in HDTV. All though not all of the content is true HD.

Channel 8 (digital channel 46) broadcasts two digital signals. One is SD (standard definition) and the other is HD. Just like channel 2 not much on channel 8's HDTV channel is HD. The other stations do a combination of these.

I have a Dishnetwork 6000 satellite receiver. This is one of the early HDTV receivers. While it has served me well I plan on switching to Direct TV to get their HD Tivo.

Dish has a Tivo like HDTV box but it apparently has many bugs.

Of the plain OTA HDTV box's the Samsung seems to have a few more issues with channel 6 here in town. Someone else may know more than I do on that issue.

Any of the newer generation box's will probably work just fine for you.

If you decide to use Comcast for HDTV content be aware that channel 6's HDTV signal is not on Comcast. (Their parent company is at odds with Comcast over fees.) Comcast is also looking at a product called Moxi. It's like a TIVO but acts more like a video server for your whole house. This may show up next year.


Good Luck,
Scott

Welcome, DC. If you have not checked the first post in this thread you should. It contains information on what the various Portland stations are doing (updated today) and where the stations are located for antenna pointing.

Originally posted by digitcallous
I am learning about the so-called HDTV tuner/decoder. But why is it called HDTV tuner/decoder? This is relating back to my first question as to whether non-HD and HD materials are both boardcast depending on the source material. Should the equipment be more properly called a digital tuner/decoder? Virtually all digital television tuner/decoders on the market can receive all HD and SD programs; so, yes, they could be called DTV tuners and not HDTV tuners. However, most folks have them to get the HDTV programs.

Originally posted by digitcallous
I currently have cable (but not HD). From what I gathered there are a couple of Samsung tuner/decoders that can hook up both OTA and cable at the same time, and then the source is selectable. Is that the way to go? Specifically the T151 can only hook up to one digital source?
So far there are no 'CableCARD' equiped DTV tuners on the market, though there are some sets around. The CableCARD slot will be necessary to receive Digital Cable programs that are not scrambled (Comcast doesn't have any that are not scrambled) and an extra fee is needed to get the cable company enable the CableCARD to descramble digital cable signals.

My current tuner favorite are the LG models. The LST-3100A is an Off-Air (ATSC) and unscrambled cable (QAM) tuner with the latest receiver chip set that has gotten very good reviews even with an indoor antanna, though an outdoor or attic antenna would be better. The LSS-3200A is a combination DirecTV and Off-Air tuner, no digital cable capability. The LST-3410A is like the 3100A, but includes PVR capability as well.

The best tuner is the one with the features and operation that works best for you. Shop around, visit stores and play with the units until you find one you like.

KPTV (12, FOX) DTV 30 - Running at full power from the KPTV site. SD feed on 30-1 and Fox Wide (and Tall) screen on 30-2. Hoping to add Fox HD in Fall 2004. Note: No channel mapping capability.Thanks for the station update Lee. FYI, since KPTV got their new switcher set up they have been running an all-on-one format on 30-1 a la KATU. The widescreen comes through "non-tall" there quite nicely. Ed said a while back that they would be shutting down 30-2 for good soon.

ron

Lee,

My 3410a picks up 2, 8, 10, & WB HD all unscrambled from comcast on re-allocated channel numbers. 10 is 90.60, WB is 70something, and 2 & 8 I think are 90something.2 and 90something.7. It looks like it may also pick up the Mariners game on Fox on the 25th of June. It shows a blue screen with the schedule for two games next weekend. Previously it just showed a blue screen with "no games scheduled".

I checked Friday nite to get the channel numbers straight:

WB- 76.2
Comcast weather channel- 77.1
Fox Sports Net- 77.4
KATU- 91.2
8- 91.7
There is also a ton of digital music, but it's very hard to tell what flavor of music on a particular channel without a guide.

It would not surprise me to see the Fox Sports Net scrambled at game time.

Lew

Originally posted by lewlew
...

It looks like it may also pick up the Mariners game on Fox on the 25th of June.

...


This is the only reason I'd consider getting cable again. OTA works great for me, and free is such a good price (of course other than the equipment cost)

It kills me to think that I could watch the Mariners in HD instead of highly compressed Dish.

Rob

Originally posted by rbonzer
This is the only reason I'd consider getting cable again. OTA works great for me, and free is such a good price (of course other than the equipment cost)

It kills me to think that I could watch the Mariners in HD instead of highly compressed Dish.

Rob I signed up for the Comcast HD to see the Mariners in HD.

It's worth the extra $10/month over my standard cable fee of about $43.

The picture of the Mariners games is terrific! Much better than the Standard Def, especially on a largish TV. (One flaw, however, is that the announcers are looking at the Standard Def version which has different graphics, stats, and replays than the HD. The HD is intended for the Japanese audience, I think, and thus we often Ichiro warming up when the SD channel is showing something a bit more interesting...)

Other advantages of the Comcast HD service:
1) ESPN HD isn't stretching their signal anymore, so it's actually worth watching Sports Center in HD. And they show several sporting events in HD each week.
2) InHD shows 3 baseball games per week.

I'm pretty happy about the service. I still have to keep the OTA HD receiver, because KOIN HD isn't on Comcast.

I guess I'll have to try my Zenith again on Comcast. The latest information I had was that there was nothing 'in the clear'. Last winter I didn't get anything on the QAM tuner and callers and video dealers were confirming the same results.

Is it just me? I can no longer sleep through 8.1 programming. When the commercials hit, they hit with extreme volume predudice.

Actually I have to turn the volume way up just to hear the program. Then the commercials are way over the top volume-wise.

Can somebody at 8 try to adjust this? Or is it just me again?

While I'm complaining about NBC/8, it seems CBS has more HD cameras. The U.S.Open coverage was a big disappointment compared to the Master's.

lewlew, it's not just you, but I was beginning to think it was "just me". :)
I've been having that trouble all weekend.

The audio seems normal on all the other channels, including the KGW SD feed on 8-2, but the network feed and commercials are muted on 8-1, then they throw in a local commercial or program and it darn near blows the speakers.
It sure takes some of the enjoyment out of the program when you have to crank the volume just to hear it and then sit there with your finger on the mute button so when they go to commercial you don't get launched from your chair.

I noticed the audio prob last night but promptly forgot about it when I went to bed. When I turned on the TV to the Today Show this morning I cranked it up loud enough to hear from the bathroom while I was shaving (without realizing just how far up I had it - must have been near maxed out). When they cut in to the local weather segment I thought the roof was caving in or something at first :eek:.

ron

Am I the only one that gets a lot of freezes and dropouts on this channel?

I have a Terk antenna, works great on 2,6,10,30.1,30.2 the signal meter on my Sony DSS w/OTA tuner says about 80% (it's the little bar, it doesn't show a number). Sometimes the 8.1 signal just fluctuates horribly per the meter and we get picture and audio freezes.

It was real annoying during the Open.

I'm in the Milwaukie area up on the hill-- any ideas?

I have problems with channel 8 here in Salem. The DTV signal comes in at about 80% signal strength for several minutes, then suddenly drops to almost nothing, fluctuating between zero and about 50% for several minutes, breaking up constantly. It's basically unwatchable for me. The funny thing is, the last time I switched my 3100A tuner to Comcast cable to try and get a stable Ch. 8 HD signal, it was doing the same thing on the QAM signal! It can't be just my antenna... huh???

That's about exactly what mine does Richard.

At least I know it's not just me.

Here in-close to the towers 8.1 has been pretty much the most stable signal of all for me. I've never really had any problems with KGW reception/lock that I can recall.

ron

I get a 100% perfect signal from KGW but not everything they broadcast is perfect ATSC. I don't know why but for some periods I'll get lots of packet errors from them (which will usually show up as break ups) and it's usually during certain shows. For example one episode of Law and Order a few weeks ago was giving me continuous packet errors yet I didn't get one during the commercials. This happened to the very last scene. The episode of Law and Order that followed it gave me no problems at all. If this were analog, you would think the tape was bad or something.

This doesn't happen very often. Normally I'll receive their signal for hours and hours without losing a single packet.

Last nite, 6/25, the Mariner's game on Fox Sports Net was in the clear QAM on Comcast.

It was some of the absolute best (PQ-wise) HD I have ever seen..

Oh yeah, the price was right too. (for now)

It's a shame baseball no longer thrills me.

Lew

I tried tuning in KOIN, KATU, and KGW HD channels this morning, and none of them would tune in. All I recieved was a low signal message.

Is anyone else having trouble? Or is this my TV (I'm using an integrated turner for OTA HD Broadcasts. Usually I have very good signal.

Thanks
Rick

They are all coming in clear for me. At 11:40 am.

I was flipping channels around 9-9:30 and they were fine.

Ok,

I jumped the gun a bit. I went in and reset my tv (went back in and had it rescan the channels, and after that they came in fine. For some reason my set seems to have lost it's channel memory. Not sure what happened, I've unplugged it in the past and had no problem, and this time it wasn't without power as far as I know.

Thanks for responses!

Rick

Ok,

I jumped the gun a bit. I went in and reset my tv (went back in and had it rescan the channels, and after that they came in fine. For some reason my set seems to have lost it's channel memory. Not sure what happened, I've unplugged it in the past and had no problem, and this time it wasn't without power as far as I know.

Thanks for responses!

Rick

Rick,

If you have a Mitsubishi you may find you need to do the 'System Reset' every once in awhile. For some reason some of them occasionally lock up on the DTV signals and get confused.

KGW-DT reception on Sunday

Tried to watch the Wimbledon matches Sunday morning but got "No signal" message from my Sony HD-200 box (OTA reception). Anyone else? Does this follow along the line of recent complaints by some of the forum members about KGW-DT, and does anyone have an inside track at KGW to let us know if any improvements are to be expected?

Thanks guys,

Hormoz

I had no problem getting KGW's signal OTA this weekend. But 8-1 had a loud clicking noise. On Sat., it sounded like a scratch on a 33 1/3 rpm record but on Sun. it was more frequent. No such noise on 8-2 but the clicking made 8-1 unwatchable. I did not try tuning 8-1 to other programs during the weekend so I don't know if it was only during the tennis broadcasts or not.

Tonight there is no such noise but reception is still good.

Bob

Did you guys get a really loud static noise on KOIN last night during Still Standing? I tuned in the Analog KOIN and no static, just on the digital channel. I did not check 6-2. It happened about 1/2 way into the show and was accompanied with several video breakups.

KGW does seem to be having their fair share of audio probs of late don't they? When that cracking noise started up while I had the news on Sunday morning it was so loud I was afraid for my speakers...

I watched CSI Miami last night on 6-1 at 10:00 and didn't notice any issues then.

ron

Raymond had audio problems too on 6-1, they were gone by the time CSI:Miami started. The audio was fine on 6-2.

On a side note, PAX (KPXG) was scheduled to switch on the DTV feed Sunday 6/27. That didn't happen and now the live date is "under review".
Which brings me to a question I was hoping patience would have answered.
KPXG-DT was scheduled to broadcast on VHF channel 4, KWBP analog is already broadcasting on VHF channel 4. Can a digital and analog signal both broadcast on the same channel without interfering with each other?

Does anyone know who the engineer at OPB is and what their contact information is?

Speaking of engineers...
Didn't someone post all of our local engineers along with their contact information a while back? I can't seem to find it. I think this information would be nice to have at the beginning of this thread.

Cris

dtv@opb.org is the closest thing I know of, it won't get you an engineer but they will pass it on.

Originally posted by earletp
Raymond had audio problems too on 6-1, they were gone by the time CSI:Miami started. The audio was fine on 6-2.

On a side note, PAX (KPXG) was scheduled to switch on the DTV feed Sunday 6/27. That didn't happen and now the live date is "under review".
Which brings me to a question I was hoping patience would have answered.
KPXG-DT was scheduled to broadcast on VHF channel 4, KWBP analog is already broadcasting on VHF channel 4. Can a digital and analog signal both broadcast on the same channel without interfering with each other? No, digital and analog transmissions cannot co-exist on the same channel. KWBP-LP, their low power repeater, is scheduled to move to channel 5 where it will be buried between the full power of channel 6 and channel 4 DTV. It will be interesting to see if anyone can pick it up. It will also be interesting to see what the impact on Comcast reception on channels 4 and 5 will be once there are new over the air interference sources.

Everyone just better get HDTV and watch the WB in HD!

Thank you Lee.

Earl

Is anyone having problems with KPDX? I'm seeing lots of garbage in their ATSC stream again.

Yes, I've had problems with them. I tried watching Enterprise Sunday night and it was so garbage ridden I couldn't watch it.

I watched some of their news last night and again this morning when I first turned the TV on and it was OK then.

ron

Yep, all fixed, again!

Just noticed Discovery HD is on through Comcast. Sweet! I was totally missing it since moving to Portland.

Did you get it turned on? Are you seeing the image?

Did anyone call Comcast for pricing?

Thanks,
Hank

I'm not a Comcast customer, but it appears from reading the Comcast thread they are not charging extra for Discovery HD (beyond the normal $5 charge for the HD STB).

There's a separate thread for Portland area Comcast stuff where you might have better luck right here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=339961&perpage=30&highlight=Portland&pagenumber=1).

ron

Originally posted by mosttoys
I have installed my blake antenna and channel master preamp and am able to receive all stations from Portland in Longview, WA. The weird thing is, with the antenna mounted right at the roof line I get all stations, the farther I go up from the roof, KGW goes completely away (normally about 54%). KOIN goes from 93% to 100% at the higher position. I have tried different vertical and horizontal angles and it doesn't seem to make a difference (still can't get KGW up high). Can anyone explain why higher isn't better ?

-John

Anybody else in Longview, WA getting Portland? My in-laws are getting the HD bug and I want to help them.

I've been watching KWBP a lot this week and I have to say the picture quality is excellent and I haven't seen a single problem with it. Their bit rate seems to be very very high.

Last night WB was breaking up bigtime during Pepsi Smash. I tuned it in about 6 past the hour and could not watch it.

Originally posted by Marissadad
Last night WB was breaking up bigtime during Pepsi Smash. I tuned it in about 6 past the hour and could not watch it.

Good to hear. I flipped by it last night and was getting break ups. At least I wasn't the only one.

These digital OTA equipment issues at the local broadcasters sure get to be a pain in the butt don't they? KGW has still been having audio problems as well. It's fine as long as the network feed is coming through, but as soon as they go to the news or something after a show that loud snap/popping starts up.

ron

I was watching OPB tonight between 9:00 and 10:00 pm. I had my Samsung set top box reboot 3 times in a span of 30 minutes. I switched to KGW, and I didn't have any more resets. Anyone else expierence this?

Hmmm, why does the WB always look good when I'm watching it?

Cuz you're special! :p

ron

Maybe! Last night I watched all of Gilmore Girls and that surfing soap opera that comes on after it and I'll be darned if I saw one dropout.

It made me wish I liked these shows.

I noticed that 2-1 has no sound. Anyone else have that problem. All the other digital OTA signals are fine.

Also, has there always been a 2-2?

The WB looks a bit soft to me, how about you guys?

Last night I was channel surfing and KATU had sound, I wouldn't notice the 2-2 since I set Favorites and never see all channels.

Anyone know when to expect Fox to be firing up HD?

I haven't had any audio probs with KATU but I did notice last night that 2-2 had appeared :(.

ron

Actually the audio was only during the news. It came back later.

KATU is running 15 Mb for the HD video, 470 kb for the HD audio, 2.66 Mb for the SD video and 470 kb for the SD audio.

It looks like they have made room to carry ABC News Now when it starts up for the gavel-to-gavel coverage of the political conventions on through the election.

You can find out more about ABC News Now here:

ABC News Has High Hopes for Digital Channel
(Hollywood Reporter via Reuters / Yahoo News)
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=televisionNews&storyID=5755469
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040723/tv_nm/television_abcnews_dc_1

ABC News Now seeks permanency [Paid Subscription Required for Complete Story - or just click item above]
ABC News' 3 1/2-month experiment with a 24-hour digital news channel that is set to bow Monday could set the stage for a permanent 24-hour digital news channel, ABC News president David Westin said Thursday.
(Hollywood Reporter)
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr/television/brief_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000584184

ABC to Offer 24-Hour News Until Election
(Associated Press via Lycos News / MyWay)
http://news.lycos.com/news/story.asp?section=MyLycos&storyId=897161
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040722/D8403SQG1.html

Since I added Comcast HD last week I haven't connected via OTA (a hook-up pain). So is the KATU SD channel assigned to 43-2 (2-2)? Any thoughts as to how this multicast will affect Monday Night Football PQ? I mean, didn't we all go high def for sports? ;-} Who will we plead with at KATU to bring down the subchannel during critical games (as Lee has graciously done)?

It will be interesting to see if Comcast will expand their digital offerings to include multicasts that are not available on analog.

AFAIK, KATU is/was the only local providing true DD 5.1. Is this affected by the audio bandwidth reallocation for 2-1 or was that fitting within the 470kb already?

Bob

ABC News president David Westin:

"I don't know how many people are going to come to it, I don't know how they're going to get to it, I don't know whether they're going to be interested,"Sounds like a well thought out plan :rolleyes:

Ridge, since they only do 720p the bandwidth leaching subchannel should make the HD channel look a little less *BAD* than those of the 1080i stations. FWIW, the PQ on 2-2 looked so bad itself I was going to guess they were giving it maybe 1.5 MB tops. I don't see why anybody would want to watch it.

The low road has once again been taken. When faced with the golden opportunity to actually produce a truly outstanding product, the broadcasters of the nation turn their backs on it. So we continue on down the slippery slope right back to the lowest common denominator, quantity over quality as always... gack.

ron

The "plan" is to do this digital news channel and then go to the FCC and say, "We need digital must carry. We're providing these wonderful public services on our subchannels and the cable companies won't carry it."

As far as PQ goes, KABC here has been running the HD/SD/Weather configuration for months now. I paid particular attention during the NBA finals to see if there was any problems and there weren't. Now I imagine that ABC is using state of the art encoders at their stations that other affiliates might not be willing to pay for, but it can work and look great.

Ah, the back door ploy. As an OTA viewer somehow that's not making me feel all warm and fuzzy... Sorry to rant, but between the pathetic PQ I get from D* HD channels these days and the subchannel-challenged OTD HD, I feel like the golden days of HD are already behind us before it barely even got started. I have to wonder if the vast majority of the public will ever even know what a nice, pristine, full bitrate HD feed can look like? BTW, how did you happen to find this conversation? Aren't you involved in the business down there in some capacity? Monitoring for feedback on the subchannel rollout perhaps? :)

ron

Originally posted by R11
BTW, how did you happen to find this conversation? Aren't you involved in the business down there in some capacity? Monitoring for feedback on the subchannel rollout perhaps? :)


My in-laws live in Longview, WA and I posted on this thread a month or so ago looking for people in that area who can receive the Longview stations OTA.

I am involved in the business. I work for CBS (although not in any part of the company involved in these issues) and I have taken a keen interest in the subchannel rollout, esp. ABC's. I'm generally in favor of allowing some subchannels, especially now that ABC has shown you can do a 720p HD channel and two subchannels and maintain picture quality. If the governement legislates digital must carry I hope that they require it only of stations doing HD. These subchannels can provide a valuable public service and I think ABC/Disney should be applauded for this experiment.

So you favor the SD channels? Would you still favor them if they cause degridation of the HD channel's PQ?

From my prior post... "I'm generally in favor of allowing some subchannels, especially now that ABC has shown you can do a 720p HD channel and two subchannels and maintain picture quality." It can be done and ABC has proven it.

I only favor digital must carry if the station is also doing HD and I would prefer that the subchannels be used for public service, i.e. news, weather, minority programming.

As Ron stated:

Sorry to rant, but between the pathetic PQ I get from D* HD channels these days and the subchannel-challenged OTD HD, I feel like the golden days of HD are already behind us before it barely even got started.

I was talking to a friend of mine who works for Kodak and is a member of international standard committee for MPEG or some such. I asked him about the minimum requirement for image compression and degradation stipulations in HDTV broadcasts. His answer was blunt: " There are none. The broadcasters will compress the signal until people start complaining." Of course by people he did not mean those of us who care about high PQ, but rather average Joe or Jane.

Ron, I share your pain and concur with your sentiment. FWIW, I have E* SD feed. The compression is so bad at times, it looks like the image has ghosting, a la analog reception! We have come full circle on technology, I guess!

Hormoz

Off topic question for Lee, it may benefit you guys as well. I have a Panasonic E85 hard drive/DVD recorder and I record Blues Clue's every saturday morning for my daughter off the KOIN analog channel and this morning my recorder told me it could not record due to a "Copy Inhibit Flag". What's up with that Lee? Is KOIN doing this on the Analog channel or is my machine having a brainfart?

Thanks.

All the local OTA broadcasters should get together and apply for another digital frequency that they could share, say perhaps uhf 28.

They could then squeeze the poop out of the bandwidth and send out all the poor quality digital programming they wanted.

KATU could have 28.2, 28.3, 28.4; KOIN could have 28.5, 28.6, 28.7; KGW could have28.8, 28.9, and 28.10; etc.

It would be even better if they would incript this crap and make us pay for it. Make us rent another stb to decode it. That would be great! Then we would have it all. That is the plan isn't it?

I think I need a time-out. :D

Lew

Originally posted by Marissadad
Off topic question for Lee, it may benefit you guys as well. I have a Panasonic E85 hard drive/DVD recorder and I record Blues Clue's every saturday morning for my daughter off the KOIN analog channel and this morning my recorder told me it could not record due to a "Copy Inhibit Flag". What's up with that Lee? Is KOIN doing this on the Analog channel or is my machine having a brainfart?

Thanks.
It's not anything KOIN is sending out. Our encoders pre-date the Broadcast Flag. It sounds like the same problem Samsung SIR-T165 units have with the Firewire port being blocked from our HD feed, but not the SD feed.

KOIN and CBS will be providing Gavel-to-Gavel Convention Coverage on 6-2. When the convention is not in session normal programming will be on 6-2.

Originally posted by ridgefamus
So is the KATU SD channel assigned to 43-2 (2-2)?

[snip]

AFAIK, KATU is/was the only local providing true DD 5.1. Is this affected by the audio bandwidth reallocation for 2-1 or was that fitting within the 470kb already?

Bob
The KATU ABC News sub-channel is 2-2 (or 43-2 for PSIP impaired tuners).

470 kb is the bandwidth required for DD 5.1. Non-DD 5.1 bandwidths normally range from 192 kb to 384 kb.

I will have an OTA receiver with QAM in about a week. I currently have Comcast basic cable (loccal stations and a handful of other pretty unwatchable channels) which is really all I'm after. If I hook up cable to the OTA receiver, what HD channel should I be able to get if I do a scan?

If on the other hand I hook up an antenna to the receiver, what do I get then? Specifically, will I be getting pretty much the same the HD channels both ways?

Any information is appreciated. Thanks.

DC

Everything is messed up tonight, No HD on 2-1, the audio is out of sync on 2-2, no HD on 6-1, 6-2 is blank, 30-2 has stopped passing the FOX feed and just has a KPTV/KPDX color graph up....
At least the audio has not gone missing from the WB tonight, and thank goodness for the History Detectives on PBS. :)

digitcallous, You'll be able to get ABC, NBC, OPB, and the WB in HD on Comcast. With an antenna you can add CBS and FOX widescreen.
I have an LST-3100A and to my eyes the picture is better OTA than through Comcast. I too only have basic cable, because with their broadband internet you pay about the same with or without the basic cable hooked up.

Earl

Once again the news on channel 2-1 had no sound for me and 2-2 was way out of sync.

I didn't check into channel 6 though.

I believe the convention coverage is the main culprit in the lack of HD network feeds. The short amount of it I watched on HDNet looked pretty good though (between the numerous dropouts anyway). As far as 30-2 goes, I believe Ed Williams said a while back that the were going to be shutting down that feed for good in the near future so maybe that time has come. Since they have had the unified feed on 12-1 (30-1) for a long time now I deleted 12-2 out of my channel guide a long time ago. I guess maybe it's about time to check in with Ed to get an update on their progress toward HD on FOX and UPN.

ron

Hi Ron, 12 is the only local that doesn't remap for me, so I used the 30-1 and 30-2 as it's what my box says. :)

While I'm hoping that the change on 30-2 indicates some progress in the HD front, I'm sorry to see it go before the HD gets fired up on 30-1. I have gotten used to using 30-2 as 30-1 is always window boxed on my set but I could blow 30-2 up to full screen using my TV without distorting or cropping off a bunch of the picture. In fact it was as if they used the test pattern that used to be shown to set up the Full mode on my set.

Oh well, as with everything else, I'll either get used to it or not. heh!!

Channel 8 has started to shut down in the middle of the night too and 10 is back to doing that too.
It was nice for a while, on 10 you could acutally get an HD feed in the middle of the night occasionally.

Here's the response Ed Williams sent me regarding their HD progress. Looks good!

Fox is just today completing the replacement of the two satellite
antennas through which we receive the network. This is in preparation
for a dramatic increase in data rate over the satellite in the early
part of August. That increased data rate will enable the network to
ship us our HD programming on the same satellite transponders we use now
for SD, syndication and news content.

The proposed Fox HD launch is Sunday, September 12th. We're working
toward the goal with the network. High definition studio gear should be
in house in late August / early September. I will tell you that for us
it's going to be very, very tight making the 9/12 launch and in all
honesty, I can't guarantee we're going to meet that date. We've had a
large number of much higher priority projects relating to news and main
broadcast plant to deal with first this fiscal year, and there's only so
many hours in a day, and so many bodies available to do the work.

Regardless, we're working toward the goal of having HD up and running on
both Fox 12 and UPN 49 before the end of September.

Ed

ron

Change of Subject for a second BUT wanted to report that today I had to call Comcast Tech in Beaverton and in my conversation with the him about their receivers, he said that the HD Receviver with a Hard Drive should be out this Fall - I said you mean the DCT 6208 or 6214, and this was the SURPRISE, he said that their DVR\PVR unit would not be a Motorola - I asked hm IF it would be an S.A. and he said, he thought it was something like "MoXEY" - never heard of any brand near that sounding name. Interesting!
The thing I really called about was trying to get my neighbor lady a Comcast Receiver with S-Video OUT - their site shows a manual for the DCT 2000 - which is not HD BUT has an S.V. OUT. She has a TV with SV. IN but with her present Comcast Receiver cannot use it - so her signal is NOT what it could be - thus her PQ suffers accordingly. I was SURPRISED and SHOCKED to find out that at ths late date with so MANY TVs having S.V. capability that they do NOt offer a receiver other than the HD DCT 6200 that has an S-Video OUT.
Reading Forums n the Internet I see that other Comcast areas of the country do offer receivers oter than the 6200 that have S-Video functionality - so I asked him - IF they could get one from another area - I don't think he heard me. Sure seems a shame that people cannot use their S-Video connector and receive a much better picture.

BEST Wishes Michael;)

Originally posted by cyberized
Change of Subject for a second BUT wanted to report that today I had to call Comcast Tech in Beaverton and in my conversation with the him about their receivers, he said that the HD Receviver with a Hard Drive should be out this Fall - I said you mean the DCT 6208 or 6214, and this was the SURPRISE, he said that their DVR\PVR unit would not be a Motorola - I asked hm IF it would be an S.A. and he said, he thought it was something like "MoXEY" - never heard of any brand near that sounding name. Interesting!

He's probably talking about Digeo's "Moxi" system (http://www.digeo.com/prodserv/moxi_overview.jsp)

That would be very cool! Especially since I'm currently not doing ANY time shifting these days yet the new TV season is approaching.

Originally posted by R11
Here's the response Ed Williams sent me regarding their HD progress. Looks good!
Fox is just today completing the replacement of the two satellite
antennas through which we receive the network. This is in preparation
for a dramatic increase in data rate over the satellite in the early
part of August. That increased data rate will enable the network to
ship us our HD programming on the same satellite transponders we use now
for SD, syndication and news content.

The proposed Fox HD launch is Sunday, September 12th. We're working
toward the goal with the network. High definition studio gear should be
in house in late August / early September. I will tell you that for us
it's going to be very, very tight making the 9/12 launch and in all
honesty, I can't guarantee we're going to meet that date. We've had a
large number of much higher priority projects relating to news and main
broadcast plant to deal with first this fiscal year, and there's only so
many hours in a day, and so many bodies available to do the work.

Regardless, we're working toward the goal of having HD up and running on
both Fox 12 and UPN 49 before the end of September.

Can I get a WHOOP! WHOOP! This is excellent and very welcome news, thanks a bunch Ed, and R11 for passing on the word.

WHOOP! WHOOP!

If I didn't know better I'd think Bud Clark had come out of retirement :D.

ron

Expose yourself to HDTV?

I just replaced my Samsung-T150 with a Dish 811.

The Dish 811 is getting everything except KOIN. When I try to tune to KOIN, the reported signal level bounces between 48% and 85% for a few seconds and then somesort of "no signal - adjust your anntenna, change your channel, etc." message comes up.

The Samsung received KOIN perfectly. In fact, it reported a relatively strong signal compared to other the other local channels.

Thus I don't suspect signal strength or antenna problems.

Is anyone receiving KOIN well with the Dish 811?

Erik

[Sorry. I'm a rare forum poster and accidently asked this question at the top-level of this forum instead of within this thread. So there's a duplicate. Sorry.]

When the signal level is fluctuating wildly like that it's usually an indication of your receiver getting too much signal. Try an attenuator.

If I didn't know better I'd think Bud Clark had come out of retirement

now that was funny :D
and at 16:9 you'd even be able to get his mustache in one shot...

Originally posted by earletp
now that was funny :D
and at 16:9 you'd even be able to get his mustache in one shot...
Sure you would, but you'd have to crop his eyebrows… :D

Regardless, we're working toward the goal of having HD up and running on both Fox 12 and UPN 49 before the end of September.
Whoohoo! Great news, Ron, Finally, some Enterprise in HD!

Originally posted by JimProuty
He's probably talking about Digeo's "Moxi" system (http://www.digeo.com/prodserv/moxi_overview.jsp)

That would be very cool! Especially since I'm currently not doing ANY time shifting these days yet the new TV season is approaching. It is the Moxi. Coming to Comcast in Portland area by end of the year:

http://www.comcastnw.com/digital_video.htm

Sonoma searcher thanks for the link. That is good news since the current guide platform for Comcast is woefully inadequate. I have D* and Comcast, and I find I watch satellite 90% of the time because of the guide issues.
Just bought a new Dila and decided not to wait for the Cablecard version since I was hoping new Cable boxes with better bells and whistles would be on the horizon. Hopefully this announcement indicates that my decision was correct. Now how do I get to be a Beta tester?
michael

This last Friday I got an OTA receiver. I subscribe to Comcast basic (local analogy channels and a few others). I connected my cable feed to the receiver and was able to pick up all the analog channels plus a number of digital channels (some of these are the local station HD broadcasts). So far I'm quite happy with the picture quality I get, specially with the prime time HD broadcast. There is something I noticed which puzzled me though.

Before, when I was watching Comcast basic analog channels on my Samsung DLP the picture quality was pretty bad. Now through the OTA receiver the same analog channels seem to have better picture quality. Is it my imagination, or perhaps the OTA receiver has a better tuner than my TV and I get better PQ? Or is there another explanation.

DC

Originally posted by digitcallous
This last Friday I got an OTA receiver. I subscribe to Comcast basic (local analogy channels and a few others). I connected my cable feed to the receiver and was able to pick up all the analog channels plus a number of digital channels (some of these are the local station HD broadcasts). So far I'm quite happy with the picture quality I get, specially with the prime time HD broadcast. There is something I noticed which puzzled me though.

Before, when I was watching Comcast basic analog channels on my Samsung DLP the picture quality was pretty bad. Now through the OTA receiver the same analog channels seem to have better picture quality. Is it my imagination, or perhaps the OTA receiver has a better tuner than my TV and I get better PQ? Or is there another explanation.

DC Really need more information to even guess. What kind of OTA receiver? How's it connected to the TV? You connected both the cable and an antenna to it? You must still have a cable box in there somewhere too if you are getting digital cable channels? Are you watching these analog channels over the air or cable?

With Comcast basic there is no cable box because there is no encryption to the signals, the coax wire comes in the house and connect directly to the antenna input on the TV. What I've done is disconnect it from the TV and connected it to the OTA receiver, in this case, an LG LST 4200A.

From reading this thread I learned that the Comcast cable wire not only carries the analogy stations, but also the digital broadcasts from the local channels (the exception being CBS). Without a digital decoder on the TV normally I can't get these channels; but with the OTA receiver I now get them. Essentially with my setup now I get both the analog and the digital broadcasts from the local stations and I can choose which to watch.

The 4200A has DVI and component cable outputs. The DVI on my Samsung is already taken up by my DVD player, so I used component cable between the receiver and my TV.

DC

How do you selectively tune from analog Ch 8, for example, to their digital channnel which is Ch 708 using the Moto 6200, in my case? Does your Samsung DLP tuner recognize those 7XX channels by another setting?

Bob

The Analog tuner in my Panasonic E85 is great. I record a lot of stuff off the analog because it looks better than the corresponding digital SD channel. The OTA analog tuned through my Dish 6000 look horrible.

Bob,

With my setup now the Samsung DLP is just a monitor doing the display. The LG LST 4200A is the unit that is doing channel selection. This unit has both NTSC (analog broadcast) and ATSC (digital broadcast) tuners built-in so it picks up both types of channels. As I 'channel up' with this unit as some point the channel identification changes from CATV (regular analog broadcast) to CADTV (digital broadcast). There are other details with the channel identification that tells me that it is a digital broadcast too. This receiver has a feature that lets me put all the channels I watch into a 'favorite' category, and that is how I change channels from analog to digital.

I assume your Moto box allows you to select channels, but if it does not have an analog tuner the analog channels will not be available through it.

DC

Originally posted by SonomaSearcher
It is the Moxi. Coming to Comcast in Portland area by end of the year:

http://www.comcastnw.com/digital_video.htm
Oh, this kicks ASS!! That seals it, I'm going to cable… I just hope they get CBS, Fox and UPN online in time (and HDNet's wouldn't be bad either).

Originally posted by digitcallous
The LG LST 4200A is the unit that is doing channel selection. This unit has both NTSC (analog broadcast) and ATSC (digital broadcast) tuners built-in so it picks up both types of channels.
It also has a clear QAM tuner, which is what's picking up your digital cable channels - including those in HD - that are not encrypted. Comcast doesn't pass through ATSC [EDIT: Make that 8VSB] on their network, which is why you don't get CBS, Fox or UPN.

DC- So, your LG box gets NTSC, ATSC, CATV, and digital cable channels (which, unless I am very much mistaken, is quite different from OTA ATSC)? Quite a box, I might have to look closer at LG. You are getting the locals in HD then over the cable then?

Back to your original question, I'd guess that yes, the LG just has a better analog tuner in it than your set does.

It also has a clear QAM tuner, which is what's picking up your digital cable channels - including those in HD - that are not encrypted. Comcast doesn't pass through ATSC on their network, which is why you don't get CBS, Fox or UPN.

From my understanding, this is exactly right. Picking up digital broadcast through the Comcast feed I only get digital (not all in HD) for ABC, OPB, NBC, and may be a couple more. The rest are the ordinary analog channels piped through by Comcast.

The box has one antenna input but I can connect either a cable feed or an antenna feed to it. I then have to tell it which source I'm using in order to do a station scan.

DC- So, your LG box gets NTSC, ATSC, CATV, and digital cable channels (which, unless I am very much mistaken, is quite different from OTA ATSC)? Quite a box, I might have to look closer at LG. You are getting the locals in HD then over the cable then?

I have to admit I may not understand all the technical nuances of what this machine is capable of getting. I am getting the channels I stated above using this box. It does not pick up any premium channels or ESPN, etc. Those I'll have to pay for if I wanted them.

I'm planning on switching over to an antenna and see what I can pick up as an alternative.

DC

Originally posted by digitcallous
From my understanding, this is exactly right. Picking up digital broadcast through the Comcast feed I only get digital (not all in HD) for ABC, OPB, NBC, and may be a couple more.
You also get WB32, which is channel 703 on Comcast's boxes. Does your LG list the channel numbers the same as Comcast? I've read of some QAM tuners that don't use the same channel numbers, for whatever reason.

It does not pick up any premium channels or ESPN, etc. Those I'll have to pay for if I wanted them.
Discovery HD Theater (707) should still [EDIT: BE!] in the clear, as according to their website, it does not require "a corresponding Digital Cable package." Are you not seeing that channel?

Moorebid, I can tell you with basic cable on the LST-3100A, WB32 is on channel 76-2 and no I don't get Discovery HD Theater.
I do get about 45 digital music stations though. :p

Earl

Yeah, that is odd… why wouldn't they use the same channel numbers? That's going to be a major headache for the cable company to support, with the plethora of QAM tuners coming out since late last year, no one's going to know which channel is which, and to whom… they probably just won't support it, "What you get is what you get…" I wonder if CableCARD tuners suffer the same malady… they'd have to support that…

I do believe that Discovery HD Theater is still in the clear on other networks, I'm surprised not on Comcast NW… they still list it as a basic channel.

That's going to be a major headache for the cable company to support...

I don't believe Comcast does support it unless you get a box from them. Since they have to program the cable card, I imagine it will remap the channels to match their listings.

I was hoping that since the Discovery Channel is part of the basic package I'd get Discovery HD when it became available, no dice. :(

As it is, I have an A/B switch with both an antenna and Comcast connected. I find that at least 95% of the time, probably more, I leave it set to the antenna. I get more HD and a better picture than I do off the clear cable signal.

On rare occasion 77-4 on Comcast will show an HD Mariners game and 110-1 will show some SD sports coverage.

Earl

Originally posted by earletp
I don't believe Comcast does support it unless you get a box from them. Since they have to program the cable card, I imagine it will remap the channels to match their listings.

Yep, the cablecard does remap the channels.

I was hoping that since the Discovery Channel is part of the basic package I'd get Discovery HD when it became available, no dice.Isn't Discovery HD Theater part of their HD package?

ron

Originally posted by R11
Isn't Discovery HD Theater part of their HD package?

ron Yes, it is (I have the HD package using Comcast's HD-capable set-top box). To get the HD box I had to upgrade my Comcast cable subscription from basic to Digital Classic. This gives me ESPN-HD, Discovery HD, inHD1 and inHD2, occasionally FSN-HD (ch 700), and the local HD/digital feed of ABC, NBC, PBS, and WB.

Last night I hooked the LG LST 4200A to a regular antenna (15 year old Radio Shack antenna from our old house) to compare results with hooking it up to the Comcast feed. I am very happy with the results.

I got digital broadcasts from ABC, CBS, NBC, OPB, UPN, FOX and WB, all but UPN and FOX have a subchannel broadcasting in HD and the picture is great. Since this is an experiment my antenna is just sitting on the floor next to the TV, and it is big. I'm thinking about replacing this with a compact indoor antenna.

The 4200A also pulled in a bunch of analog channels too. But since the antenna is not all deployed fully I did not get great pictures from several channels. Since I'll be watching digital broadcast from now on I don't care anyway.

Someone mentioned an a/b switch to switch between cable feed and an antenna. Can whoever it was give details about the hardware needed? Thank you.

My very first venture into digital broadcast has been fun so far.

DC

I was just trying to quickly set up a "silver sensor" antenna for my MyHD-120 card and noticed that ABC, CBS, and the WB are not currently transmitting?

Are these three on the same tower? Is this temporary or did something bad happen?

Cris

They are right next to each other, in fact, I think WB uses the KOIN tower.

Yeah, I just read on the first post of this thread that all three are on the Sylvan Site.

Any idea on why none of them are currently transmitting?

Cris

It's the terrorists!!


Oh wait, that threat was for four years ago.... Good to know they're on the job anyway :rolleyes:

ron

I don't know Cris, I'm at work. I can't believe all 3 would be out at the same time.

Looks like it was just temporary, all three are back up again.

Cris

Last night I was having a few beers with my pals, and one of them mentioned they were looking for a new TV. I'm also in the market, and the other guy said he's due for a replacement. With the greatest respect to R11, Lee, and all the other contributors, after going through this forum from the top, how for the love of God could anyone make any kind of decision on what to purchase for one's viewing pleasure?

You forum folks are great, but it appears the broadcasters, cable weasels, and hardware manufactuer's have failed spectacularly in rolling out, supporting and maintaining HD pictures flying through the air.

Looking at posts listing signals up, down, no sound, etc etc, I can't imagine my friends (granted Joe Sixpacks) dealing with any of this. I'm a geek and it's really putting me off. Spring a couple grand for gear and maybe it works, maybe I can get an OTA signal, maybe have an afternoon of fun dealing with Comcast Tech Support.

I'm sure the above parties have all sorts of excuses, and places to point the fingers, but my two beer drinking pals really don't give a rat's, they want to flip the set on and watch. Until that happens, this whole HD business (and I do mean BUSINESS) has Betamax written all over it. Sadly, we the viewer are the last one's figured into the equation.

Best of luck folks, I mean this in the nicest way possible, but have fun in the sandbox, it's all your's until I and my pal's can go down to Freddy's and come home with something you don't need to boot up.

Someone mentioned an a/b switch to switch between cable feed and an antenna. Can whoever it was give details about the hardware needed? Thank you.

digitcallous, All I use is a Radio Shack A/B switch part #15-1216
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?MSCSProfile=745D84CBF04D14A48AA6FF9C89D722C0BA68 C1B04FE384678A5285FCD6E056B17AF21627FDABE316B90B3C038D68EBD6 B7F9F3BD1712EAA9951ACB2590A05C6517EFE46941FEFDD1985D4EFD6321 F5E70B4DE9B6C1D45512DCD9FB3DBCACB947C5C8DF2EAAB47D2C59ACDDA6 470F37DEDC7CD02BDC23CA87FF69C39AC2DB814BDA615CEB0B997ECF&cookie%5Ftest=1&catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-1216

If you want to go hi-tech they also have a remote controlled A/B switch part# 15-1968
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?MSCSProfile=745D84CBF04D14A48AA6FF9C89D722C0BA68 C1B04FE384678A5285FCD6E056B17AF21627FDABE316B90B3C038D68EBD6 B7F9F3BD1712EAA9951ACB2590A05C6517EFE46941FEFDD1985D4EFD6321 F5E70B4DE9B6C1D45512DCD9FB3DBCACB947C5C8DF2EAAB47D2CFDD21A90 8B78651F88BDA79507E540E1218A51578DA4F55A3DE14401AF518316&cookie%5Ftest=1&catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-1968

then it's just a matter of hooking the antenna coax to one post ("A" in my case) the cable coax to the "B" post and a short piece of RG-6 from the center post to the input on the STB.

The only negative is that when you switch from the antenna to the cable you have to (on the LST-3100A) go into the STB menu and rescan the channels. For me, the minute or so to do that doesn't really matter in the big scheme.

It's simple and inexpensive. Something that can't always be said regarding HDTV. :D

Earl

kib-

OTA is the only tricky part. If you don't want to mess with antennas, line amps, rotators, etc (like those of us down south), just go buy an HDTivo, a digital TV and call DirecTv to sign up for the HD package. Boom! You're in. And it works great right off the bat.

If you really appreciate good picture quality you'll love every minute of HD. It's worth every penny to me. I don't think many people in the Portland area have the problems that we have in Salem trying to pull in a decent OTA signal.

Has anyone out there tried to get waivers from the local networks to get HD distant networks feeds from D*???

My understanding is that the only way to try to get the waivers is by putting in a request to the satellite company, and then they, in turn, put in a request on your behalf to the local networks. I did that today (for CBS, NBC, ABC, and FOX) and they (D*) said that they'd get a reply for me within 45 days (either the distant network HD feeds will get turned on or I'll get a letter saying why they won't).

As some of you may recall, I went through the whole OTA process a few months ago with very limited success. I was able to get most of the locals in HD, but not all at the same time (even with two antennas). And since then, I've discovered that the changing seasons, weather, (trucks?!?!), etc. tend to also throw things off. Even though I'm not too far from the towers, I'm directly behind Mt. Scott and don't think that any OTA solution is really ever going to work.

Chances are, the local network guys won't bother to check on the particulars of my crummy location and then they'll reject the waivers. So then I'll have to appeal ... whatever that process is ...

Anyone have any experiences they want to share? What are my chances - initially or on appeal? Does it tend to take the entire 45 days, or is it generally quicker? Thanks in advance for any replies.

marshdom

I have not gone the waiver route but have been very tempted. I have all the same issues with poor reception except I'm on the back side of a hill in Salem. I won't go into all the details about my struggles to get a signal but I wish you luck. Keep us posted as I'm sure many folks here would like to know how this all turns out for you.

Good luck!

Best of luck folks, I mean this in the nicest way possible, but have fun in the sandbox, it's all your's until I and my pal's can go down to Freddy's and come home with something you don't need to boot up.Kib, I hear what you're saying and there is definitely some truth to it. I am the only person in my circle of friends that has HD capability. And I have not tried to "convert" any of them either other than letting them watch a few HD movies or sporting events here and there because I know that as you say, it requires desire to learn about it and do it. OTA digital TV is no different than OTA analog TV. It can carry the same pain-in-the-ass reception frustrations unless you're in a good location. If you happen to be in a good location like me, it's awesome. The receivers have gotten much better at signal seeking/locking too. The other main problem is the situation with the local broadcasters and the emphasis (or lack there of) that is given to their digital/HD efforts. To a degree it's largely understandable though as they know where their bread is buttered. And until Nielsen begins counting digital viewers and the number of them grows there's not much incentive for the broadcasters to change their focus. That said, many of them are doing a great job with the resources they have to work with and I for one am hugely grateful. To me HD is the sweetest thing. I don't spend all my time watching TV by any means but I do watch a lot, and being able to get it in widescreen and in high resolution is well worth the effort.

With Comcast now having HD capability I think it has gotten much easier for the kind of person that doesn't want to put up with hassle's to do it. It sounds like they will be coming out with a nice HD DVR/tuner box soon as well. At this point I would definitely recommend to my non-equipment oriented friends to try them out as I believe it's far more plug and play than OTA ever will be. There's a separate PDX Comcast HD thread right here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=339961&perpage=30&highlight=Portland&pagenumber=1) if you want to check out what they are doing. I haven't really been following it but I'm sure the guys there can give you the lowdown. The new box looks like they may finally have a good program guide like satellite has had all along, and if they ever get all the local channels HD on board it would even be tempting to me to check them out. I'd give them a shot if I were you.

Now, in the event that your post was just a troll, Bite Me!! :D Otherwise, good luck.

ron

Ron -

No troll. Thanks for the words of comfort but I think it's going to be a good long time before I shove my head in the HD jet engine....

Regards...

Originally posted by Kib
Ron -

No troll. Thanks for the words of comfort but I think it's going to be a good long time before I shove my head in the HD jet engine....

Regards... You're just looking at it the wrong way. Think of it as a challenge! It's interactive. Instead of just watching sports on TV, just trying to watch TV becomes a sport!

Except for the fact that Comcast is confused about what cablecards do, which should be cured by a few weeks of experience on their part, getting HD up at my house hasn't been any more painful than buying a new TV has ever been.

I waited until Comcast had a decent amout of HD programming and the set I wanted dropped under 2K.

The picture is so worth it in the opinion of everyone in my household.

Originally posted by ceccacci
You're just looking at it the wrong way. Think of it as a challenge! It's interactive. Instead of just watching sports on TV, just trying to watch TV becomes a sport!

For me, its gotten to the point that the "hard part" about HD is just knowing what HD is on. Reception has never been as much an issue as just getting the stations to broadcast a consistent signal, and now they've gotten much better about that.

I put together a webpage that shows where the towers are, to make it easier for people to guess where to point their antennas: http://bbauer.gomen.org/pdxdtv.htm

I wonder if it might be useful to map out where people are getting good (or bad) reception, and what antennas they're using?

bdb - THANKS alot for sharing that with us - it's a KEEPER!

Michael:p

Originally posted by bdb
For me, its gotten to the point that the "hard part" about HD is just knowing what HD is on.
I use Titan TV (http://www.titantv.com). It has a nice feature where you can choose to show only HD programming.

I do wish Titan TV would show all the Comcast local HD channels, though: I have to look at the OTA channels to figure out what the Comcast HD locals will be showing.

I use Titan (or my D* on-screen program guide) as well. It's gotten better and faster than it used to be.

ron

I use TitanTV as well, though it is usually incorrect for OPB. So I end up checking http://www.opb.org/schedule/dtv/ as well. Titan's also quite often incorrect for special events as well.

Most of the time I miss HD shows, its really because I didn't bother to check any schedule at all. :rolleyes:

I use TitanTV too.

A few months back I called the folks at TV Click, the TV schedule that comes out in the Sunday Oregonian, and suggested that it would be nice if they included a small HD indicator in the line up.

The response was, there are so few people with HDTV in the area they felt they had better use for the space they have. The person then went on to say, "Besides, you HDTV guys already know what shows are in high definition."

From a business standpoint I suppose I can understand the first part, the other shows how little even people that deal with publishing TV schedules really know about HDTV.

Earl