Looking for plans for very high quality theater speakers. I'm not into design software, but rather looking for some plans that have been proven winners.

Anyone?

Ted

Ted,
Call www.meniscusaudio.com and ask for Mark
They can build speakers with accuton ceramic drivers and Eton Kevlar drivers that will be right up there with the Big Boys! They built me a custom 4 way 2 enclosure center channel speaker.
Regards, Mark
mburnste@dmc.org

Thanks Mark, but I'm looking to build them myself. What I need are some directions, etc. A recipe.

Ted

http://members.cox.net/mikemouw/DIYGrResearch-1.jpg
Saw these at Speaker City USA (http://www.speakercity.com/GRProject/PhlRevProject.shtml)

Originally posted by Ted White
Thanks Mark, but I'm looking to build them myself. What I need are some directions, etc. A recipe.

Ted
Meniscus Audio can supply parts and plans of cabinets and crossovers as well as build them if requested.
additional places http://madisound.com/ and http://zalytron.com/

These are good. Has anyone actually heard these? I was thinking there was a "best of class" out there that has been tested and heard by some of you out there.

Ted

I am in the middle of building the Audax Home Theater Center channel speaker. I will be in a position to let you know first hand how it sounds in about a week.

The center speaker is described here (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_3/diy-13-audax-center-channel-speaker-9-2001.html)

Full plans and description are at this link. (A corrected and updated PDF copy of the plans that used to be on the old USA Audax web-site) (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3099956#post3099956)

More construction details at this link (http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/audaxhtproject.html)

Two minor errors in the plans published on the Audax web-site are described here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2444910#post2444910)

I ordered the kit of parts from Madisound (http://http://www.madisound.com/) (http://www.madisound.com (http://http://www.madisound.com/))and I am building the cabinet myself. They did have cabinets available, but if I bought it assembled, I would not get to make as much sawdust.

I plan on building the full HT set of speakers but was not sure of how they would sound. In addition, I wanted to see how I did with constructing the center channel speaker box before committing to the entire project. If this works out, I'll be ordering the left/right front and rear channel kits soon.

At this point, the parts for the box are nearly done and ready for assembly. I will probably assemble everything and give it a listen before I glue on the last side and finish the cabinet with veneer. That way, I can be sure the crossovers are working correctly.

I looked at a lot of DIY designs before deciding on the Audax HT. I liked that they took into consideration the off axis response of the center channel. In my case, that is critical as only one of my theater seats is on-axis.

For the past few days I have been making lots of sawdust out of MDF. So far, he cabinet weighs about 35 lbs... empty... I figure it will be close to 45 lbs once the crossovers and drivers are mounted.

Got to go make more sawdust....
Joe L.

Edited to add link to description of errors in Audax plans.
Edited to correct link to Audax plans to point to PDF version. (They used to point to the USA Audax web-site, but it now is simply a pointer to the French Audax site and the plans there are not as detailed as the PDF compiled by an AVS member)

Great Post Joe! Just great!

Sounds like a winning system. You must tell us how it goes. Thanks for taking the time to share this.

Ted

You could try some of the projects here:

http://www.speakerbuilding.com/

Especially the Geers EVE II and the Andromeda.

Also, search in the Audio forum for 'Unity Horns' and you'll get full details of Bob Sorel's excellent system.

And finally check www.htguide.com in the DIY forum for some of the moderators projects.

Steve

Ted,

What exactly are you trying to accomplish with DIY speakers.

If you are bored and this is just recreational they can be lots of fun.

If you are trying to save money they are almost never competitive with the most bang for the buck commercial speakers. The Silicon Valley is filled with smart engineers who love to "rool their own". But I have never yet heard a single finished speaker that sounded as good as something else I had heard at the cost of what they spent on components, let alone their time.

Most "speaker kits" are offered by those making their living selling the drivers at high cost relative to the OEM cost that a volume buyer would pay. The reall problem is finding a recipe that has sufficient crossover design expertise. They are not easy or inexpensive to do well and more important than the raw drivers used IMO.

Have you heard the Swans Diva speakers ? I can't imagine any DIY design being able to duplicate their performance if its bang for the buck you are after.

Try some of the plans from Adire Audio (http://www.adireaudio.com/). They have links to published reviews and amateur reviews by members of this and other audio forums.

-Robert

Check out an interesting site at

www.northcreekmusic.com

I haven't built or heard these speakers, but in the course of researching
high quality DIY speakers, these were highly recommended. I finally decided
that I didn't want to tackle the wood working involved in DIY and bought
Swan Diva 6.1s instead.

Ted, I came up with my own design about 5 years ago, and then went to Madisound to have the crossovers designed using their LEAP software, the driver specs and my cabinet design. You can see pics and drawings of my speakers on my web site if you choose. My main speakers were published in Speaker Builder magazine, which is now combined with several other publications and is called AudioXpress. I have made a matching MTM design center channel speaker as well as mid/tweeter surrounds.
I am using all of them in my theater as we speak.
I have everything documented on how to make them, as well as some tips on what I would do differently if I was to make them again (construction changes).

Speaker Builder Magazine..? Really? That's impressive. I'll check out your site!

Thanks

Ted

I have had less time in the evenings to devote to making sawdust out of MDF, but my center channel speaker is about at the point where I can put the drivers in and see how it sounds. I expected to be done by now, but I am getting closer.

I started with 4 MDF shelves I purchased from Home Depot. They were 12 1/4 inches wide, 49 inches long and 3/4 inches thick. I used the factory edges wherever possible to get square corners for my speaker. Per square foot, it was a few dollars more than buying a full sheet of MDF, but I do not have a table saw to make accurate cuts, so I took advantage of the factory cut on the shelves edges to be square and true. Besides, it was much easier to get them into the back seat of my car.

I used a circular saw to cut within 1/4 inch of the true dimension, then I clamped a straight edge to it and used a flush trim bit (the type with the little ball bearing on the end) in my router to get a clean edge (of the right size)
It is not the same as having a complete workshop full of woodworking tools, table saws, jointers, planers, etc., but the trim bit in the router worked very well for me. I was able to get accurate square edges and 90 degree angles using this technique and construction therefore was pretty easy.

The box was assembled with fine-thread drywall screws first, then disassembled for the final re-assembly with glue. I predrilled all screw holes and countersunk all the screwheads. (before I am done, I'll finish the cabinets with veneer)

The most recent step was to glue on the front and rear second layer of MDF. This gives me a panel thickness of 1 1/2 inches in the front and rear. Once they were glued on, I again used my router with the trim bit to accurately trim them to the size of the inner front and rear panels. (I had cut them oversize and did the final trimming after gluing them in place) A bit of sanding and everything is looking really fine.

You can find the plans here :
Audax Home Theater Speaker Plans (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3099956#post3099956)

http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/P9280287a.jpg

I'm just about done making sawdust out of MDF for the center channel. I can't wait to hear it in action.

Joe L.
Home Depot shelves - sawdust + Audax drivers and crossovers = DIY Center channel speaker. (basic speaker building math)

Edited to fix link

http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Vision/VisionInfo.htm

After doing a lot of research with the same goal in mind, I built a pair of Vision Signature speakers, a high end MAPD monitor loudspeaker system featuring the Scan Speak 15S/8530K-01 mid-woofers and Scan-Speak D2905/9900 Revelator tweeter in a classic MTM configuration, and can highly recommend them. I have the center channel plans and lumber but haven’t started them yet. Check out the above link for details. These sound absolutely fantastic in the two-channel mode I currently use them in. I also built the North Creek Leviathan Subwoofer.

George

George,

If your speakers sound half as good as they look, they must be wonderful. Very nice job on the finish. You must be very proud of your work.

In my case, I'm planning on using a satin finish and staining the oak veneer with a black aniline dye. I do not want my center speaker to reflect a lot of light from the screen.

It probably would be best if I just painted the MDF in flat-black, but I just can't bring myself to put that kind of finish on such a nice speaker cabinet.

I took a look at the north creek site. Their kits are more expensive than the ones I am building from madisound. In addition, I felt that the approach of having a separate midrange speaker in the center channel was important as off-axis response was critical in my theater. That made me choose the audax design over the northcreek design.

I've seen frequency response plots of MTM (midwoofer-tweeter-midwoofer) designed speakers when horizontally orientated and off-axis In one case(I'll try to find the link), the critical midrange was over 10 db down, in another, they talked about it being 18 db down at 2000Hz when 30 degrees off axis. (right in the middle of the frequency range for speech) In this example (http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/dkhts/dkhts2.html), the builder measured the off-axis response of the MTM style center speaker he had built and supplied a response curve graph (http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/dkhts/centerx.jpg). Ouch... most of the midrange is over 10 to 15 db down off axis. His own comment was "Yuck! Look at how bad the off-axis response of a horizontal MTM is! This is why no one in their right mind would use this design for a center
channel."

Talk about making it hard to follow the dialog in a movie if you are not seated directly on axis. One of the major reasons I choose the design I did as I only have one seat in my theater that is "on-axis". The audax web-site stated that the frequency response for their design was flat within a few db even when off axis.

So J.L., how is that speaker coming?

This weekend I had everything in my DIY center channel assembled. The crossovers are wired and I temporally attached the top with screws. (The inner enclosure is supposed to be sealed, but since the top fits so well, I figured the sound would not be affected too much.) This was my chance to make sure that I had everything wired correctly.

I left it playing music overnight at a reasonable listening level to allow the speakers to break in. They did seem to improve after that and get even more detailed.

In a word, the speaker sounds great. I spent the weekend trying different types of program material. (I watched Moulin Rouge, Blade 2, and Hart's War) One thing I was looking for was how well I was able to understand dialog in the presence of other background sounds. It was very easy to hear the difference (from the computer speakers I was using) when watching a movie.


Last night, I disassembled the speakers (removed the drivers) so that I could apply the veneer finish. This should happen over the next few days.

The speaker is very heavy and not very easy to carry around once assembled. I can already see that I want to position it so that its top is in line with my line of vision (angled so that its speakers are pointed toward my ears) I will be making an angled stand for it from scraps of MDF I have left over from its construction.

Although you might think I was doing this for best sound, that would only be part of the story. The primary reason is to minimize the light reflected from the top of the speaker. It was distracting till I propped up the front of the speaker so that I could not see the speaker's top panel. I expect this will be lessened when I apply a matte black finish to the speaker.

I will be ordering the parts for the other channels this week from madisound.com. With any luck, I will be making more sawdust this weekend. I'll post another picture once I have the veneer applied.

Joe L.

At this point, I have finished the veneering and about ready to stain and finish the center channel.

The construction has taken a lot longer than I initially thought, however, I only have had the chance to work on the speaker for an hour or two each week.

I can not be more pleased with the appearance so far. I used yellow carpenter's glue on the cabinet and veneer, let them both dry, and then ironed on the veneer allowing the heat to melt the glue to bond the veneer to the MDF. It worked great. The veneer is paper-backed red-oak purchased from Woodworker's supply in Burlington, NC.

The hardest task was trimming the veneer. That took far longer than expected. I did most of it by hand using a razor knife after getting it rough trimmed using a flush trimming bit in my router. The oak is really tough even when paper thin.

Here is a picture... I'm almost there... (I have not yet built a stand for it, so it is propped up on a couple of blocks of MDF temporally)

http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/PA200334.jpg

PS.
The box of drivers and crossovers for the L/R Front and Rear speakers has arrived from madisound.com. I'll be covered in sawdust... again....

Try klone-audio.com

J.L. that speaker is the best! I am glad you have posted those pics, every time I see them it brings me closer to building my own. Two questions: Do you have spectrum analysis graphs of the ported design I have only seen them for the sealed variety? And what would it be beneficial to use the ported design for all (3) front speakers?

brothermaynard

I do not have any frequency response graphs. However, according to the Audax web-site, the Joe D'Appolito designed center channel performs as follows:

On-axis frequency response is within +1.6dB from 100Hz to 20kHz. The low frequency -3dB point is 55Hz and sensitivity is 87.5dB/2.83v/1m. At typical viewing angles within +15 degrees off the on-axis position, response changes less than 1dB over the full frequency range.

Since Joe D'Appolito is a highly respected speaker designer, I expect that there is more truth than marketing in the Audix web-site description of the frequency response.

The left and right front speakers are also ported in the rear of the enclosure. The only difference is that they use a single 3 inch diameter port instead of two smaller ports in the center channel.

From what I have read, the efficiency is higher in a ported design. Other than that, I cannot comment. I'm following the Audix plans because I am not a loudspeaker designer.

I'll be starting the L/R front speaker construction after I get the center finished. ( I already have all the materials...but my wife suggested I get the center finished first before I start making more sawdust. Since sawdust and finish work with varnish don't mix too well, I agreed with her advice.) Left / Right Plans are at this link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3099956#post3099956)

I'll be sure to take more pictures..

Joe L.

Edited to fix link...

I have applied two coats of black Aniline dye to veneer.

Wow... I almost want to stop now... The finish is almost flat black, yet the grain of the oak shows through. Exactly like I want for under my screen. (to minimize reflections off of the top surface of the speaker)

I'm off to the hardware store to purchase a sealer and finish for it. Since the dye was water based, I'll look for an alcohol based sealer.

The dye is perfect. I purchased it from Woodworker's supply in powder form. I mixed (dissolved) one ounce of it in a quart of hot water. Based on the amount I used to coat the center channel, that quart is way more than I'll ever need to finish all the speakers. I barely used any in the two coats I applied so far.

Since the speaker finish is so flat, I used a slave bounce flash along with the flash on the camera to take this picture. Without the extra flash, it was hard to see any detail at all. (of course, that is exactly the finish I am working toward.. I want the speaker to disappear when the lights are dimmed and a movie is playing)

Joe L.
http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/Pa270348a.jpg

J. L. ,... I am following your progress with great interest (thanks for the pictures) as my father-in-law is making me wood box part of the Audax Center Channel as my Christmas Present (he has way more wood-working talent than I will ever have).
Couple quick questions. Do you plan on using Speaker Grills?... If so, which ones. We have a new puppy so I will be adding the grills but there are so many to choose from. And the second questions does the Audax kit come complete with the egg crate foam and other stuffing or did you buy that seperately on your own?.. I can't seem to find on the Audax info a specific yes or no to that question.

blitzkreig,

I do not plan on adding any grills even though there are two dogs and a cat that allow my wife and I to share their house. Fortunately, they are well behaved and have not destroyed any furniture. (lately)

The center channel will sit atop the stage, below the screen and out of harms way from the animals. (They are not interested in climbing on the stage)

Actually, the cat attempted to walk on the stage during its initial construction. At that point I had draped fabric across its frame to see what it would look like. The cat stepped onto it, the fabric gave way as there was nothing supporting it, and the cat jumped back to safety thinking it was falling. (the stage platform is about six inches high so the cat was not in any real danger... but the cat did not know it) It has kept off of the stage since. (who says cats are dumb.)

The madisound kit of parts did not include eggcrate foam. Instead, it included flat acoustic foam about 1/2 inch thick. Since the original plans called for the thicker foam, and since I had a piece of the blue foam you see in the pictures, I used it instead. I expect that two layers of the foam they supplied would have worked just as well. (they supplied more than enough) From what I have read, the eggcrate foam is available at your local Walmart as an inexpensive mattress pad.

The kit also included polyester batting for the center compartment. I'll add that just before mounting the speakers.

I only have two complaints with the madisound kit of parts.
-- They did not supply enough wire to allow me to mount the crossovers where I would have preferred. I needed a few more feet to mount one crossover in the bottom of each compartment.
-- The person who assembled the crossovers glued the parts to the circuit boards with their values facing the board. I would have preferred the values to be visible.

It sounds like your father-in-law will make you a very nice Christmas present. I hope to finish my set of speakers by then myself. It has taken me two months to get this far, but this is the first time I have ever done anything like this. I expect the other speakers will go faster as I have the experience of building the center channel to draw upon and they are way less complicated.

Joe L.

Thanks... and I must compliment you on that black dye job, it looks very nice.

there is more to just slapping some wood together and cutting holes and dropping tubes in. do some research dont just look for general plans.. these plans are for specific drivers.. do a searcg on google for speaker building and go buy a book at radioshack about building speaker boxs..

pen25,

I could not agree with you more. The drivers, crossover, and enclosure must be designed together. If not done correctly, the resulting frequency response is unpredictable and nowhere near optimal.

One of the reasons I went with the Audax center channel design was because I did exactly what you suggested. I did my research, found a highly respected design where the plans and drivers were both available, and where the biggest complaint I could find was that the speaker enclosure was huge and not something you could perch atop the average TV. Oh yes, it was also affordable.

Are there better designs... probably... but the Audax center channel has been compared to some pretty expensive designs and held its own. If anything, it is one that others were compared to in their evaluations.

In any case, I installed the drivers last night and settled in to watch a few movies. The dialog is distinct and the speaker performs exactly as expected. It sounds great even when seated off center. My biggest complaint is that the satin finish (3 coats of Minwax Polycrylic) is still more glossy that I would prefer.

Here it is, sitting on my stage. (now it doesn't look that big when you sit it under a 106 inch screen.)
http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/Pa290362.jpg

It's time to make more sawdust... Front Left/Right are next.

Joe L.

WOW... she is beautiful!!! Thanks for the step by step progress report.

thats cool.. i like it.. and also love the whole 100" plus screen.. got to love proj. its good that you used a system that already has the speakers and box designed around it.. most people make the mistake though thinking all you have to do is cut a couple peices of wood and slap it together.. that is pretty much fine with a sub but when it comes to full range that is the hard part.. also imaging.. one reason i wold def buy matched speakers outside of the sub which ill build. but who knows maybe ill get a wild hair and try my hand at building some loudspeakers.. ;-)

Very nice job, J.L.

The gloss is fine, from what I can make out of the picture. It's elegant.

'Shame we can't hear it!

J.L.

Excellent work on the Audax Center. I went the opposite route and built the L/R speakers first. I now notice how inferior my Sony center is compared to what I built. I am going to be building the center channel after Xmas along with a Sono Shiva.

After seeing your center I am going to rebuild the cabinets for my mains as they were my first attempt at woodworking and they are really ugly.

J.L.

Excellent work on the Audax Center. I went the opposite route and built the L/R speakers first. I now notice how inferior my Sony center is compared to what I built. I am going to be building the center channel after Xmas along with a Sono Shiva.

After seeing your center I am going to rebuild the cabinets for my mains as they were my first attempt at woodworking and they are really ugly.

darthopus,

I'm sorry you have been influenced by my center speaker's appearance to want to re-build your Left/Right speakers. I'm sure they sound wonderful. I have no doubt that they outperform your existing center channel.

Can you share your experiences with the L/R construction? Is there anything I should look out for?

What do you plan to do differently when you re-build?

The Audax center was my first attempt at veneering and finish cabinetry type woodworking. I expect that the others I build will look better than my center speaker, but... I do not plan on re-building it.

My secret was to veneer the back of the cabinet first (to make the mistakes where they would show the least) then to do the sides, and finally the front, top, and bottom (most visible). By the time I got to the front, I was getting much better at trimming the veneer.

Joe L.

One thing you should look out for is that the crossover diagram is incorrect on the Audax site. eI believe it's the low pass crossover. Wayne J from Speakerbuiler.net had a corrected version on his site. I built the crossover according to his diagram and they sound wonderful. I can send you the diagram, but it's not in my laptop. I have to get my desktop hooked up again. (I will be glad when escrow closes and my new house is done!)

If I do end up rebuilding them, I am going to use a makeshift guide for making straight cuts. My wife likes to watch "Trading Spaces" and the carpenter used a 3' level clamped to the board as a straight edge. The only thing really wrong with my speakers is that the cuts aren't reall straight. everything is air tight though.

email me if you want that diagram. I believe speakerbuilder.net is down for a while.

later,

Don
dgoreham@attbi.com

I can heartily recommend at least one DIY route - the Phoenix/Orions designed by Seigfried Linkwitz of crossover and Audio Artistry fame. I have just built some test baffles for a modified version of his speakers and so far they appear to sound better than my Wilson WATTs. Construction is also a piece of cake as there are no boxes.

The site is here:

www.linkwitzlab.com

It's early days yet so I'll see how extended listening goes, but they are very nice so far.

Steve

darthopus,

Thanks for the heads-up about the misleading crossover drawing on the Audax web-site for their L/R Home Theater speakers. With as many people that have commented, I wonder why it has not been corrected. (anybody ever tell them it is wrong?)

Actually, the schematic of the crossover on the Audax site is correct, but their pictorial drawing of the low pass filter for the L/R speakers has an extra wire shorting part of the crossover. It is incorrect.

In any case, madisound.com assembles the crossovers and supplies them already assembled when you purchase their kit of parts for the Audax speakers. Therefore, I did not have to worry. (I did check, they assembled the crossover correctly)

Joe L.

Another place to check for DIY speakers is at the Asylum:

http://www.audioasylum.com/index.html

It is a great place for information on everything about audio.

J.L.,

Wayne J from speakerbuilder.net has informed Audax several times about the incorrect schematic and they apparently aren't too concerned about it.

It's fortunate that I heard about the Audax speakers from Wayne J's site and saw his corrected diagram. Otherwise I would probably have been been soured on the whole DIY experience and been forced to buy lesser quality speakers. Being broke sucks!!!

It's good that the crossovers from Madisound are done for you as it took me about several hours of learing how to assemble and read a crossover diagram. Thanks Wayne J! I hope his site goes live again real soon as it was a wonderful resource for the DIY'er.

Enjoy your new speakers. I am in the process of going through escrow and will have to remove my surrounds and the wire for my subwoofer from under the house. LOTR EE and Ep. 2 are my last HT experiences until my new house is finished in February. I know my parents( whom I will be living with for two months) will not allow the subwoofer and surrounds to ruin their decor. Can you believe that? At least they are tolerating the 65" Mits!

The upside is that it will give me time to rebuild the mains, build the center channel, and build the sonosub without rushing the job because I'm impatient and just want to hear them.

I used to be the sole proprietor of Masterpiece Speakerworks, a small loudspeaker company in the SF Bay Area. After a couple of years, I closed up shop, though, because nothing I could engineer could ever sound as sweet (to my ears) as a good planar-magnetic (e.g. Magneplanars, which I currently own) or full-range ribbon (e.g. Apogee) (And, yes, Virginaia, though it pains me to say it, even the Carver "Amazing Loudspeaker" kicks the @ss of any cone-based or electrostatic speaker - at least to my ears.)

That said, the only dynamic/cone-based speakers that I could never out-engineer were those designed by Mike Dzurko at Audio Concepts. Dzurko's brilliance at subwoofer design outshines anyone - with all due apologies to Velodyne owners. (WHEW! Opening myself up for LOTS of flames on THIS post! *LOL*)

Now, when you say, "Very High Quality", you could mean a lot of different things, because "quality" is, itself, highly subjective. Perhaps you want to build speakers that sound "as good as Bose"... but for the sake of this post, I'll use my own standard of "Very High Quality". ;)

You also make no mention of price/cost - you may be looking toward kits because of budget constraints, but then again you may also just want the pleasure of crafting your own speakers. I'll make no assumptions there.

Mike Dzurko's Jaguars are truly exceptional. Unfortunately, I believe Audio Concepts may have stopped offering them in kit form (though you may be able to work something out with Mike.) Beyond that, numerous good-to-very good kits are available from Solen Electronique, Madisound. (I've had dealings with both and have always found the folks at Madisound to be tremendously pleasant and helpful.)

Though I'm not a big fan of Audax drivers (Eton, ScanSpeak, Focal, and Dynaudio - in that order - would be my choices), J. L. does have the right idea - D'Appolito's MTM design, (which has its own compromises from a pure audio standpoint) is an excellent choice for HT due to its off-axis response. I'm not sure how well it lends itself to a bi-pole design for rear channels, though. If anyone out there is currently using an MTM bi-pole for the rears, please post your comments. I'm genuinely interested.

From what I understand, Dynaudio do not offer their driver for the DIY market anymore, since they are now making their own speakers in mass quantities. I may talk to the Dynaudio reps at CES about it though.

I used to be the sole proprietor of Masterpiece Speakerworks, a small loudspeaker company in the SF Bay Area. After a couple of years, I closed up shop, though, because nothing I could engineer could ever sound as sweet (to my ears) as a good planar-magnetic (e.g. Magneplanars, which I currently own) or full-range ribbon (e.g. Apogee) (And, yes, Virginaia, though it pains me to say it, even the Carver "Amazing Loudspeaker" kicks the @ss of any cone-based or electrostatic speaker - at least to my ears.)



I completely agree with you. I am currently getting into building speakers and yet I don't think I will come anywhere close to matching my quite little $500 Magnepan MMG's. Those things are amazing and considering the price and the fact that there commercially made, I feel like I ripped off Magnepan. I have a pair of $250 B&W DM302's and the difference in quality of parts used and quality of sound of the maggies is far more than double. At the same time it makes me think that building speakers would be a waste if there never better than what I have to begin with, yet at the same time I don't want to surpass my maggies cause there so dear to my heart.

And to think it was just fate that I was walking through Incredible Universe like 6 years ago and saw the Amazings they had on display and saw the $2000 price tag and said ouch, then the rep guy told me to about a company that sold these weird speakers called magne-something-or-other. :)


Oh and that guy on the first page that said DIY stuff will never equal mass market stuff, I guarantee I could make something better than the DM302's with $250, even if I had to build a couple boxes. The 50 cent caps and iron core inductors alone make quite a difference.

Also did you see that partsexpress is now selling the Amazing's ribbon assembly, but at ~$400 each, you may end up spending as much making them as they cost new. Although the box on that thing was pretty simple. Hmmmmm....maybe someday........

I cannot comment on this threads originator's motives in looking for DIY plans of "very high quality" loudspeakers, I can describe mine.

I am not an audio engineer, or a professional woodworker, but tackled the project for three reasons..

1. I did a lot of reading and learned that the Audax design was considered pretty decent. (Joe D'Appolito designed the set of Home-Theater speakers) Since I was following a set of plans, I did not have to design the crossover, etc. Instead, I could concentrate on the physical construction.

2. I enjoy building things... electronics and computers mostly, but have done some projects where I used a saw, hammer, sandpaper, and varnish.

3. I learned I could save quite a bit of money by building the speakers myself and the result would be superior to anything I could purchase for the same amount as I would spend on materials. I expect to spend around $1000. Did I have a specific budget in mind? No... I wanted good sound. I was looking at speakers in the $2500 dollar range at a local home theater store before deciding on the DIY approach and their price tag did not cause my wife or I to get "sticker shock"

Since this was my first speaker project, I am not in a position to counter the anyone's claim that my project would sound worse than most commercially purchased (and professionally engineered) speakers. I personally doubt it.

If I had done a DIY design for the speaker, and if I did not have the resources of the web to support a first time design effort, then I would agree it is likely that my design would be lacking. My odds of picking good drivers, designing a good crossover, and getting the desired result would be slim. That is why I followed plans published by a respected loudspeaker designer.

I know my enclosure is solidly built and braced. I know I am not listening to a hollow box. I can tell you that the Audax Center Channel sounds pretty darn good, better than most I've seen at Circuit-City, Best-Buy, or Now-Audio. Voices are very clear and distinct. Equally important, they sound good anywhere in the room.

Is a "planar" style of speaker a good candidate as a "center channel?" Probably not. Too directional. True, they would sound absolutely wonderful if you were in the "sweet spot" and would blow away almost anything that did not have their transient and phase response... but are they a good candidate for a "center" channel... not in my situation where I have most of my seating off center. Would they work in my room as L/R speakers? No. Not enough room to space them alongside of the screen AND away from the walls.

Will most people who tackle a DIY set of Home Theater speakers have exactly the same reasons to undertake their project I did? I can't say. Will they share some of the reasons? Probably.

At this point, I have made quite a bit more sawdust. The L/R speakers are ready for glue. The panels are cut and holes for the drivers routed, and veneer ordered. I'll post pictures soon.

J. L.

J.L.,

I decided on the Audax system for almost the same reasons you mentioned. I know I'm not experienced enough to design a crossover from scratch. I found this set on speakerbuilder.net. Wayne J had an awesome site dedicated to the DIY'er. I do have one question for you though. Are you building the suurounds as called out in the plans. I have decided to use the fronts as rears also. My reasoning is this: 1. Eventually (soon I hope), I want to get into SACD. 2. I want the fuller sound that I believe the larger fronts will give me. 3. Because I can!! I have the room, so why not? I have just moved, and haven't had time to get my garage together all the way yet. However, seeing your pics has inspired me to get moving! Thank You!! I will post pics as soon as I get my web page working again.

Griff

J. L. - I REALLY hope I didn't belittle your undertaking or accomplishments in any way; that was certainly not my intent. I say, "Bravo!" to you for undertaking this, and "Good call!" as well.
Originally posted by J. L.
I did a lot of reading and learned that the Audax design was considered pretty decent. (Joe D'Appolito designed the set of Home-Theater speakers)
D'Appolito's design is beyond decent - it is superior to most of what's commercially available - especially in the price range we're talking about here. I'm absolutely certain your end result will give you much, much pleasure. :) (But all things are relative, and once you've "tasted" Maggies, there's just no going back...)
I learned I could save quite a bit of money by building the speakers myself and the result would be superior to anything I could purchase for the same amount as I would spend on materials.
. . .
Since this was my first speaker project, I am not in a position to counter the anyone's claim that my project would sound worse than most commercially purchased (and professionally engineered) speakers. I personally doubt it.
I not only doubt it, I am certain of it. The mark-up on speakers is obscene! Anyone who has ever sold speakers at Best Buy, Circuit City, etc. can attest to the fact that the profit margin is 50% or higher. Then there's the fact that the retailer does not buy them from the manufacturer, but rather from a distributor (and there can be more than one level of middleman, too, each of whom marks up the price and takes a profit. The manufacturers, themselves, are making a good profit to begin with, and they have to pay for manufacturing equipment, labor, and design costs. So, with volume discounts on components, you can safely assume that those $1000 speakers at C-City represent < $100 worth of parts. Keep in mind, too, that until you get into the extreme high end, where cost is no object, manufacturers like Bose, Polk, Paradigm, etc. have the added business considerations of hitting a certain retail price-point, and they are forced to make compromises in order to meet them.

Even without having heard your speakers, I'd put your DIY D'Appolitos head-to-head against ANY commercially available speakers selling for twice the price!
I can tell you that the Audax Center Channel sounds pretty darn good, better than most I've seen at Circuit-City, Best-Buy, or Now-Audio. Voices are very clear and distinct.
I can't imagine C-City selling anything that would surpass your DIY's unless it cost 4X as much, or more.
Is a "planar" style of speaker a good candidate as a "center channel?" Probably not. Too directional.
That's exactly why the Maggie center channel speaker is curved. Is it a good choice? Absolutely. I don't want to hijack this post into an evangelism of Magneplanars, so I'll just post this link to a very thoughtful, interesting and well written review of Magnepan's home theater system (http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/magnepan_16_cc2_mc1_system.htm) and I'll leave it at that.
Would they work in my room as L/R speakers? No. Not enough room to space them alongside of the screen AND away from the walls.
Well said, and that is precisely why Maggie's aren't for everybody. (But they are the only speaker for me. ;))

As to the merits of DIY speakers, if you're not going Maggie, it is (IMO) the *only* way to go...

Originally posted by westrock
Also did you see that partsexpress is now selling the Amazing's ribbon assembly, but at ~$400 each, you may end up spending as much making them as they cost new. Although the box on that thing was pretty simple. Hmmmmm....maybe someday........

No [fecal matter]?!?!? Can you post a link, please? I'm thinking a DIY center channel for my Maggies may be in my future!!! This is very exciting news - thanks!

DIY'ers take note - this merits serious consideration! Coupled with a very fast bass/mid-driver, (probably in an aperiodic or even an infinite baffle enlosure - I've had excellent luck in the past with fast midranges in backless, lightly stuffed sonotube enclosures) and reinforced by a good DIY sub (which is exceedingly easy to do - and do WELL), these ribbons, crossed over fairly low, would make a solid cornerstone of an incredible, virtually unbeateable no-holds-barred DIY 5, 6 or 7 channel system!

This really has me thinking... For years now, I've considered attempting a DIY planar-magnetic mid/bass driver... maybe the time has come. Geez, talk about "Very High Quality DIY speakers"... !!!

www.e-speakers.com (http://www.e-speakers.com)

The ones I remember had about a 48" full-range ribbon... nothing like that at e-speakers.com. Went to partsexpress.com and searched for "ribbon" there, too - only found the Ravens - not what was in the C.A.L.'s

ElvisIncognito,

I took no offense. In fact, I was pleased to see that Magnepan has an offering in their product line targeted toward the HT market. Unfortunately, they still would not work in my theater.... as I said, not enough room along side of the screen.

Now... If I ever decide to change out the L/R with full range ribbons, that might work. They are narrow enough to fit alongside the screen.

On the other hand, once I get the Audax HT speakers completed, I just might finish a pair of electrostatic speakers I started back in (embarrassed to say) 1977.

At that time I was a subscriber to "the Audio Amateur" and built stators for a pair of full range speakers that has been described in that magazine. The project got put on hold when I moved from an apartment to a house and I still have them in my closet, ready to be assembled.

These would then replace the pair of "Ohm Model F" speakers sitting unused in my living room whose foam surrounds have rotted. (I have not listened to them in years because of the foam rot) The DIY "High Quality Speakers" mode existed for me even back then, just not for HT use.

J. L.

Hi ; The "Audio Amateur" excellent mag, been reading it since the late 70's

Elvis, I just checked Partsexpress's web and they must have stopped selling the big ribbons by B&G. They where there about 2 weeks ago when I checked, I was getting prices on them. I guess one could always call B&G and find out who is repping them. Thats how I found out that partexpress stocked them in the first place. Mind you that was about 6 months ago. The company name is bgcorp.com

i built a set of speakers using all Focal drivers their tc120td5 tweeter, 7k6411 and 11k7512 and then used LEAP LMS and a few good sets of ears to come up with the crossovers

Heres one of the B&G ribbons, this a 40 inch model, but in there (partsexpress) newest catalog in the B&G section there is a ribbon that specifically says its a replcement for the Amazings.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-706

Thanks, westrock - I just ordered the print catalog.

Griff,

I have not yet started the rear surround speakers, but I have the drivers and crossovers already. I do plan on building them as soon as I finish the Left/Right Front speakers. I'm about half way through building them.

I started the L/R fronts by sitting down with the plans and re-engineering the dimensions slightly. I planned to double up on the front and rear panels and therefore wanted to adjust the depth and height to keep the speakers from extending too far past the screen.

I kept the internal volume of the enclosure the same as originally designed.
This resulted in a bit more than 4 inches of height added to the cabinet and them being 2 inches less deep (internally). The extra 1 1/2 inches added by the thicker front and rear panels result in the speakers having almost the same external depth as in the original design. Along side my 106 inch screen I had plenty of available height so the modified dimensions look well visually.

I made myself a plan showing how I would cut the required pieces from the 2x4 foot MDF panels I had purchased. It also showed how they would assemble.
http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/PB240620.jpg

Next step was to transfer those dimensions to the MDF. I used masking tape to mark the various pieces so I would know how the would assemble later.
http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/PB180613.jpg

I then cut and assembled the pieces with a few fine-threaded drywall screws. I used a homemade circle cutting jig to make the holes for the drivers with my router. To cut the panels, I first made a course cut with my circular saw and a straight-edge clamped to the MDF. This was within 1/4 inch of the final dimension. Then I clamped a piece of MDF to the true dimension required and used a flush trimming bit in my router to make the panel exactly the dimension I needed. http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/PB270622.jpg

Here the speaker cabinets are fully assembled. Next step is to take them apart and re-assemble with glue and screws. (If I had enough clamps, I could skip the screws, but they allowed me to use the clamps as I needed during the assembly and then remove them once the additional screws were added.) I used a countersink and predrilled all the holes to keep the MDF from splitting.
http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/PB240615.jpg

Next will be to add the ports, the acoustic foam, the crossovers, and give them a test before I apply the veneer. Keep tuned for more pictures as I proceed.

J. L.
-------------
Raw MDF - Sawdust = L/R Front Speaker Enclosures.

JL,
Most excellent thread on the Audax diy speakers. I was just looking at their site last night and put them on my short list along with Adire and GR Research. I'm also pretty handy but have never really built anything electronic from scratch. I like pre-assembled XOs.

I have recently listened to diy speakers from GR Rsch and Adire. IMHO, I don't think you can buy a comparable speaker for the $ that goes into building these. I think you'd have to spend ~$500+ more to equal them. I listened to a 15" sub that a guy built for his father for ~$400, and I know you'd have to spend $1500 or more to equal it. OTOH, I have a set of Energy Take 5 speakers with the Energy sub for which I paid <$900. That was several years ago and at that time no small store-bought speaker that I listened to could compare for the same money. I guess it all comes down to what you're willing to spend.

I am into the idea of diy and I'll be getting someting soon. My main problem with most of these designs is the 4ohm impedence.

Thanks again,
Jeff

i finished a pair of rick craig designed 3.5 way speakers recently(turkeyday)
diy is the way to go-scanspeak tweeter,morel mid domeand 2 6.5 woofers per side in a small sealed cabinet.these blow away any thing comercialy available for 640$-stage, detail,depth.
i also talked to rick a couple weeks ago about doing a line array with the bg ribbon,he likes the idea.

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/rosconey/vwp?.dir=/&.src=ph&.dnm=speakers_tmp.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/bc/rosconey/lst%3f%26.dir=/%26.src=ph%26.view=t

pic of my speakers

check out these
http://www.gr-research.com/AlphaLS/Alpha.htm

I know a guy who built a set of these for a customer.

Jeff,

Thanks for both the link and for the comments on DIY alternatives.

Clearly, there are quite a few high quality DIY speaker possibilities. Designs exist in various forms and price ranges, some are easier to assemble than others, some far more difficult. The web allows us to be aware of and choose from many different designs. The line arrays are much more complicated (and expensive) than the Audax HT speakers I am constructing. I am certain they sound wonderful. (their ribbon drivers are very highly regarded)

It is a bit more difficult to compare price/performance between the various designs. Most of us will only ever hear one of the DIY designs, and even then, it will be after they are constructed and in place in our homes.

We are all at the mercy of others who have constructed the same DIY speakers. They at least can compare the DIY design to commercial offerings in the same price range. Again, the web allows us to read their reviews of their DIY design's performance.

We can pour over spec sheets and driver parameters. In the end, DIY comes down to picking a sound design (pun intended) at a cost we can live with, using materials we can obtain, put together with tools we have available.

J. L.

OK, I'm ordering the center and fronts. I'll keep my 4 Energy speakers for the rear and L/R surrounds. I'm also going to build a 15" (Tempest) sub.
JL, keep us posted. BTW, I'll be in NC in two weeks (RTP).
Jeff

Jeff,

As long as you get the right receiver (or separate amp) a speaker rated for a 4 ohm load shouldn't be a problem.

And the sub that we built for my dad uses a Dayton DVC 15" driver, not a Tempest. But the DVC 15 is virtually a Tempest clone.

Brian

Brian,
I would love to have the receiver that you sell, but I don't want to spend that much. So, it's the DVC. I'm ready to get the saws going...I want to build something.

my new diy speakers (rick craig 3.5) run a 4 ohm load, the amp seams to make a major differance.
my yamaha rxv1 can handle 4ohms no problem ,but the top end was hot-switched to a old carver pm350 amp and it made a nice differance=very smooth.
i am so happy i went the diy route.
take a look at ricks sight its got some neat stuff


www.selahaudio.com

I looked at the Audax design and I believe they are 6ohm speakers. I checked out the Denon site. I looked at the 1803 and higher models and I noticed that they were rated down to 6 ohms. I also think that the Yamaha RXV1300 can do 6ohms. I've heard some really nice GR-Rsch speakers at Rutledge Audio Design www.rutledgeaudiodesign.com but the GR site says they are 4ohms. If you want to build speakers but not the cabinet, check out theirs.

I'd like everybody interested in DIY to try these pages:

www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk

www.zazac.com

Probably the DIY speakers using most expensive drivers such as ATC 3" midrange dome. I wanted to have one of high-end wilmslow for a few years, still hoping... Second site is in Korean, but you can see some pictures of speakers made there. :)

Jeff,

Thanks for the plug. I just finished watching "We were Soldiers" and my Sherwood Newcastle receiver had no problem with the 4 ohm load of the A/V-1+'s and Adire's LCC center channel. You might be able to find an older model used or on clearance in your price range. They're definitely among the best receivers I've heard if music has any importance at all. If you're talking strictly HT then the others you mentioned would work well.

Just beware of any receiver with a 4 ohm switch on it. It's just a band aid which limits the current output of the receiver when driving a 4-6 ohm load and thus protects from driving the receiver into thermal overload.

Brian

Brian,
The new receiver will be for HT only. The official word from GR and Adire is 4ohms. Audax says fronts and centers are 3 ohms across the entire range and the rears are 6 ohms. I plan to use my Energy speakers in the rear. Afterall, I have 2 fronts, 3 rear, a center and a sub. I'm pretty sure that they're 8 ohms. Now, if I only knew where to get a good deal on a Sherwood Newcastle ;-)

Yeah, I wonder where you could get a good deal on one of those? :)

Brian

JL,
What did you use to cut your holes for the individual speakers? I bought a router jig from Parts Express but now that I have it, I don't think it will work on all routers. There is a list of models that it will fit. I haven't bought a router yet and I hope I don't have to spend a fortune on one to fit my $30 jig.

Jeff,

I mentioned this in my email but I post here for others' benefit. I use the DeWalt DW621 router. The built-in dust collection is a must for cutting MDF. They're normally $199 at HD or Lowe's but they're on clearance now so you might be able to save a few bucks. It's well worth even the full $199 price.

Brian

Jeff,

I made my own equivalent to your "jasper" jig from a scrap of Masonite I had left over from the poster frame I built. It probably looks exactly like your $30. version except it only has three pivot holes. Those were three diameters I needed for the woofer, and midrange in the center channel.

For the tweeter, terminal cup, and port holes, I used a "fly-cutter" style of hole cutter in my drill press. It can cut a small hole easily. It is not at all suitable for use in a hand-held drill. In fact, it says to use it only in a slow speed drill press.

If I did not have a drill press I would have made a large circular template to rest the base of the router against its inside edge and then it would have no problem with a small diameter hole.

J. L.

I just stumbled onto this thread and must say it is really interesting. I have thought about building a set of speakers myself (mostly for music) for some time now but just haven't ever been able to decide on a kit. I'm a little surprised nobody commenting in this thread has mentioned Zalytron (http://www.zalytron.com/) yet. They have quite a few speaker kits. You just have to check out some of the line array designs... WOW!!! Has anyone ever tackled one of their kits? If so, are they pretty good, decent, excellent or crap? That is all for now, keep up the good posts!

Hey JL, what type of receiver or amp are you using? I have to upgrade my receiver and I'm finding that most diy speakers fall into the 4 and 6 ohm category.

Jasmo, I do remember that a while back, several years probably, Speaker Builder Magazine did a review on a kit for the A652 (I think that was it) Audax design. They used the Zalytron kit, so it came with all the parts required as well as the Zalytron built cabinets. I think there was a problem with the tweeter wiring being out of phase, but that was easilly corrected.
From what I remember, they lived the Zalytron cabinets, very well built.
If you want to try and find the article, Speaker Builder is now combined with two other magazines and is called AudioXpress.

Jeff,

Currently, I am using a set of amplifier "circuit boards" I picked up at an electronics flea market. They were what I was using on my old pro-logic surround system. They run about 7 watts RMS output each.

These will be replaced with more substantial amplifiers as I proceed. You would be amazed at how loud it can get even at that power level.

Personally, I would not worry about the receiver output rating at 4 ohms vs 6 ohms vs 8 ohms because speakers are anything but a constant impedance.

There are two possible problems with an amplifier driving low impedance speakers:

1. If you plug 4 ohm speakers into an amplifier rated for 8 ohm loads, it is possible that its power-supply will not be able to supply enough current on very loud passages when listening at high volume levels. This will make the sound distort or sound muddy. If it is a multi-channel amplifier, it may run into this problem if all channels are driven to max output at the same time even when connected to speakers at the suggested impedance. (unlikely with music) This class of problem is more likely to occur on inexpensive receivers that have marginally designed power supplies with small (lightweight) transformers and small filter capacitors. In fact, some are guaranteed for their rated power level with only two channels driven simultaneously.

2. If you plug 4 ohm speakers into an amplifier rated for 8 ohm loads, it is possible that it will overheat if driven for long periods of time at maximum volume if its heat-sinks are too small. (This actually is more likely to occur when the amplifier power supply is able to supply sufficient current on loud passages.) This overheating could cause damage to the output transistors if they did not have circuitry to protect them from high temperatures.

If you keep away from the most inexpensive amplifiers, the odds are you can use any of the DIY speakers with just about any amplifier rated over 5 watts a channel and enjoy fairly loud sound in your theater no matter what load impedance your speakers present.

Now...to keep things interesting... I have a pair of monaural amplifiers I built in the early 70s that were (conservatively) rated at 250 watts into 8 ohms. I personally measured somewhere near 600 watts into a 4 ohm dummy load driven with a 1000 Hz sine wave for durations of a few minutes. (without them clipping or distorting) They weigh about 30 pounds each, most of the weight being the power transformer and heat-sinks. They play for about 30 seconds after the power is turned off. (They have very large filter caps in their power supplies)

I used to use these to drive a pair of Ohm Acoustics Model "F" speakers. They were rated at about 3 ohms. On a very hot summer day in a un-airconditioned second floor apartment, one of them did power itself off when the heat-sink temperature rose to where the thermal cut-off opened. This was after driving them at high volume (then the landlord downstairs was out for the afternoon) It did cause me a bit of concern, but once I realized what had happened, I simply turned the volume down a bit. They did not suffer from either of the flaws I described above.

I'll eventually use these to drive a DIY subwoofer (a future project) and a buttkicker.

Lastly, according to the Audax web-page that describes the DIY speakers I am building:

The left and right channel speakers are 2-way vented systems with a 4th order acoustic in-phase crossover at 2650Hz. Sensitivity is rated at 88dB/2.83v/1m. Response is within +1.6dB from 100Hz to 20kHz. The low frequency -3dB point is 50Hz. System impedance is 8 ohms.

The center channel impedance is above 7.5 ohms throughout most of the low-frequency range. The minimum impedance of 5 ohms occurs at 4.5kHz. This is frequency is high enough to be of little concern. Phase angle lies within +40o over the entire frequency range. This is an easy load for typical multi-channel home theater receivers.

Looks to me like the Audax HT design is not a 4 ohm design after all.

J. L.
PS.
Sorry for the delay in my responses these past few days. I was one of those in North Carolina without any electric power for the past 5 days. (Mother Nature, an Ice Storm, and Duke Power staff reductions all had a lot to do with this)

Hello JL, Glad to hear you've got your power back. My parents and my brother and his family all live in Charlotte. My parents got their power back on Sunday and the last I heard my brother's was still out.

Any new pictures or updates on the speakers will appreciated. I'm going to most likely get the Audax fronts and the center. I've already got the parts on order to build a 250 watt 15" DVC sonosub. As for the receiver, I currently have a Denon AVR 600 which is 5-yrs old and ProLogic only. I'm going to buy a Marantz 5300 which is a 6.1 system. I'll use 3-4 of my 5 Energy speakers in the rear. I may even try to keep my little 8" Energy sub in the system.

We were better off than some in the recent power outage. Our electricity is fed from the street behind our house, it had lost power. Our cable-tv is fed from the street in front of us. It still had power.

Since we still had a signal on the cable, we were able to watch the news and HBO on a battery powered Sony Watchman with a 4 inch b/w CRT. (yes.. the image was much smaller than the 106 inch screen in our theater)

I temporarily moved construction of the speakers into the living room. (it had windows.. and light)
The cabinets are now assembled with glue and screws. I have filled all the screw holes with wood filler and glued in the acoustic foam. (foam mattress pad from Walmart)
The port tubes have also been installed since the last picture I posted.
http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/PC070641.jpg
Next steps are to mount and wire the crossovers. Then I'll glue on the last side, use the router to trim the sides flush, round over the front edges, and apply the veneer. Looks like I'll be very busy if I am going to get these done before Christmas.

J.L.

Those mains are looking really nice! I noticed that your not flush mounting the 6.5 " drivers on your speakers. Is there any reason as to why? The audax plans call for that. The reason is that it helps with the sound dispersion. I don't know all the ins and outs of baffle design so I could be totally misunderstanding this.

After just checking the site the only plans that show any flush mounting are the midrange woofer on the center channel. I think I got the flush mounting tip from speakerbuilder.net. Now my question is do you notice any degradation in sound on your center channel? I know you don't have a flush mounted center to compare to, but you have said it sounds really good. Flush mounting wasn't difficult, but it wasn't a walk in the park either.

I'm just wondering as when I rebuild the mains I might just not flush mount them, because I'm not sure the thickness of the veneer will be as I can't buy it until much much later. Moving into a new house is expensive!


thanks,

Don

JL, those are looking really good. My 15" DVC sonotube parts arrived today. Looks like a trip to Home Depot tomorrow to buy 3/4 MDF. Oh yeah, I've also got to get that 18" sonotube.

Don,

Good eyes... I did flush mount the midrange driver in the center channel. The plans at the Audax site specified for it to be flush mounted. On the other hand, none of the other drivers are shown as needing to be flush mounted.

Therefore, I'm simply following the published plans...

Would flush mounting all the drivers help? Who knows? I'm pretty sure I do not have an acoustically perfect room in which to hear the difference.

Without starting a debate, I can say that I have read it makes a difference that can be measured if you have the right equipment, but that it may not be something you can hear when listening to them otherwise.

Jeff,
Keep us updated as you build your subwoofer. I have plans in the back of my mind to do the same. I was going to try to call a few commercial lighting companies to see if they had any scraps of sonotube. (they use it to pour footings for lights poles in parking lots, etc) The only stuff the local HD stocks is very small diameter.

Joe L.

I am currently entering the final stages of construction of a variant of the Linus Array.
The Linus Array is a line array project created by Rick Craig and Jim Griffin. It makes a high quality line source an affordable reality for the DIYer.

My variant will have 8 ribbon tweeters and 9 5" mid woofers per side.

You can get some more shots and info on my link. sorry about my webpage, it is just started.

My Linus Array Variant (http://home.earthlink.net/~jmiyake/)


http://home.earthlink.net/~jmiyake/_uimages/DSCN0934.JPG

yup jim knows his stuff

Wow, line source speaker...

Could you tell me what midbass driver you'd like to use?? :)

I am using 8 Stryke Audio RTw2 ribbon tweeters per side. (These are the same as the HiVi PT2's, I just got a good deal.)
Stryke Audio RTw2 (http://www.stryke.com/SA-RTW.html)

I am using 9 Vifa PL14 5" midwoofers per side.

Vifa PL14 (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=297-322&DID=7)

(Parts Express is out of stock, apparently some jerk ordered 18 of these and wiped out the whole inventory. Greedy $%#@) :rolleyes:

I am very picky when it comes to the midrange. I feel that there are a lot of very good tweeters out there that provide very good results, but there are very few midranges that I find believable and musical. So I set up some listening tests.

I am part of a speaker building club, and as a group experiment we tried out 7 different 5" drivers.

Vifa p13 - No bass, and not a clear as the others. No one liked them
Peerless 134 - Not very detailed, a disappointment
Vifa MG14- Bit of break up, harsh sound, bright yellow kevlar.
HiVi5a - Gorgeous looking, great bass. I didn't like them, but at least one member did.
GR 130- Very nice sounding, sweet. Came in second in my book.
MCM 1855- used in the original design, are actually pretty good. Good bass, Just a bit harsh. Rather inefficent. $11 what a deal!
Vifa PL14- Neutral, clean, detailed, natural. Maybe a tad weak on the bass

After all was done, we all agreed the PL14's were the best sounding 5" that we tested.

They were also amoung the most expensive.

I reduced the number of drivers, since I felt that 12 was really not necessary. Also the designers have commented that the line of 12 was too efficent for the tweeter line. (The MCM's are not very efficent compared to other 5" drivers.) and also to lessen the cost. Still by going with the better drivers I more than doubled the orginal cost of the Line source project. I totally blewup my budget on this one. (We are talking governmentally overbudget here.)

Worth it? Time will tell. (I sure hope so)

James

Has anyone completed a DIY 5.1 matching surround system? How do you feel about the results?

James

Hey guys, I started on the sonosub yesterday. I now have two endcaps that are 1-1/2" thick and a trimmed down 18" sonostube. All I have left is to apply my finish to the endcaps, attach the driver and vent. Then, I'll finish the outside of the tube. I won't have any more time until next week due to business travel and holiday/family travel. If I had 2 more days, I could be listening to it. I will build a bracket for the amp and install it into my built-into the wall equipment rack. I have started a site that documents my progress as I go http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/diy_sonosub001.htm

jimiyake,

I wonder if you tried that famous(notorious?) Scanspeak 15W8530 midbass, which are used in Krell LAT and many other high-end system... I am afraid one or 2 8530 could be more expensive than 4 or 6 of PL14, though... -.-;;

I have listened to Scanspeak 15W8530 and 8545 in DIY speakers by others. I was rather impressed. Especially with the amount of bass created by such small drivers. Actually I liked the Seas Magnesium and brass line even better. However, believe it or not, I was trying to keep prices down. (I was not entirely successful.)

By using 9 5" drivers per side, efficiency is greatly increased. Since less extension is required from any individual driver, distortion is minmized. Theoretically then, a lesser quality driver can be used with good result, since the driver will only be used in a low demand manner. However I have found that every midrange driver sounds dramatically different. Many of them I do not like. (I am very picky regarding the midrange.) Therefore I did listening test of about 7 different drivers till I decided upon the PL14, even though it costs more then I wanted to spend by about a half.

No doubt I am the only guy in this forum to blow his budget like this.
;)

James

Originally posted by jmiyake
I have found that every midrange driver sounds dramatically different. Many of them I do not like. (I am very picky regarding the midrange.)

I agree completely with this statement. I had some speakers I made back around 1992 or so and had a fairly in-expensive paper midrange with cloth treated surround, don't remember the name now, that I replaced with the Audax HM170C0 (Carbon fiber, inverted rubber surround). Once I got the new drivers, I popped them in the speakers to try them and my wife even noticed the difference. I then started my new project, the Maverick 2's and completely re-did my speakers, from ground up. Unfortunatly, I couldn't find anymore of the Panasonic Leaf tweeters I had used before, so I ended up with Vifa aluminim dome tweeters instead. The Panasonics were very nice sounding tweeters. I was able to sell mine to a guy doing a line array with something like 60 of the Panasonics.

Hey Jeff,
how's the sono sub? Had a chance to work on it yet?
James

Why yes, I have worked on it some. MY bidness travel has kept me jumping lately. I just successfully fought through the Atlanta traffic to make it home from the airport once again. However, I'm leaving again in the morning to go to a family get-together on my wife's side. I have to wait until Monday to work on it again. Here are the pics of what I've done so far
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/diy_sonosub001.htm
Jeff

Originally posted by jmiyake
Hey Jeff,
how's the sono sub? Had a chance to work on it yet?
James

James,

Thank you for your great information. My hat off to your great effort and speakers.
I wonder if you did other normal 3-way type DIY project. Have you ever evaluated ATC's SM75-150 midrange dome driver? If you did, I hope you'd share some experience with us. :)

Hi jheoaustin,
thanks for your kind words.
I have not heard the ATC's SM75-150 nor am I likely to afford a $3000 pr set of drivers. I would hope it would sound very good.

I tend toward getting the biggest bang for the buck. My current project is kinda a poor man's Pipedream, but I am trying to save about $68,500 dollars. Besides, more money doesn't necessarily mean better, especially in audio.

James

James,

Thank you for your reply. I agree mostly with you. Just a bit of correction, though, is that ATC driver is just under $1,000 per pair, probably $700, not $3000. :)

James,

I remember McIntosh had some statement with line source speaker that, many tweeters in line source speaker would relieve burden around the crossover frequency, and thus enables wider bandwidth of tweeter(basically lower crossover), and more flat/seamless 2-way loudspeakers. Do you agree? :)

jheoaustin, for me, $700 for a pair of drivers, that are not full range (meaning you gotta buy some other drivers too) is just out of my price range. I can only justify so much money for DIY projects, especially if there is a possibility that the project won't go as planned and you don't like the results!

Scott,

Thank you for your comments. I agree with you. I don't have a good woodwork skill or fine-tuning knowledge for DIY speaker, so I wouldn't dive in right now. Maybe I would rely on some kit makers.

One of my future expectation is, rapidly developing DSP technologies drving down room EQ features to reasonable price point. I believe this means that some DIY speakers, not tuned optimally due to some reason, could benefit greatly from room EQ features. I think room EQ can give us a lot more chance to tune the system with DIY speaker a lot better, and the driver quality and potential can be much more important than network fine tuning(and hopefully enclosure). It would be even better if multiamp system with active crossover is employed along with DSP room EQ.

J.L.,

I am in the process of building the Audax HT system also. Here is a quote from the Audax webpage:

-----"Cut all panels to size and make all holes before assembly. Flush mount all drivers to eliminate diffraction caused by the raised edge of the driver flange. A router will be needed to rabbet driver flanges flush with the baffle. (The TM025F1 micro tweeter does not require flush mounting.) Use weather stripping available at hardware stores to seal the joint between driver flanges and the speaker baffle. A tight seal is especially critical in vented enclosures. -------

I am going to use the larger front design for all 4 speakers. I am also adding some braces to the center cab. Some people feel this isn't necessary, but I'm doing it anyway!

Hopefully you not flush mounting the drivers won't cause a problem with the sound. I'm hoping someone much more knowledgeable than me will chime in on this.



Griff

----------------------------------------
jheoaustin says: ATC driver is just under $1,000 per pair
----------------------------------------

So I probably shouldn't use these guys as a price source.
driver reference (http://www.snippets.org/ldsg/sect-15.php3)

----------------------------------------
jheoaustin says:
I remember McIntosh had some statement with line source speaker that, many tweeters in line source speaker would relieve burden around the crossover frequency, and thus enables wider bandwidth of tweeter(basically lower crossover), and more flat/seamless 2-way loudspeakers. Do you agree?
----------------------------------------

I remember hearing the Mcintosh tweeter lines many years ago. Very sweet sounding. They must have designed their tweeters rather differently than regular tweeters. Other tweeters have a very high resonance breakup, 1K or higher. Around the resonance, all they will create is distortion, even at low volume. If you ever crossed over a tweeter too low, you will know it. The sound is not at all pleasant. So it is usually recommended you crossover an octave above this point. The Mcintosh tweeters must have been more like a full range 2" driver. So I agree with your basic premise, but I don't think that you could line up a normal 1" tweeter and get the amount of frequency range that Mcintosh did.

There is a greater problem with any array involving cones and domes. If the center to center distance between drivers, is greater that the wavelength of the highest frequency that the driver is producing, you will get combing and beaming interference patterns. At 10khz the wavelength is about 1.5". Therefore any conventional driver array will have combing and beaming at higher frequencies. This includes some speaker systems that cost many thousands of dollars, as well as the very popular 2" and 3" supercheap driver arrays. What does this sound like? Well it is pretty dramatic, from across the room, if you move your head up and down you will hear a dramatic variation in the highs of the array as your ear passes past each driver. A true line source tweeter such as a ribbon, or planar is required for higher frequencies.

James

I think the prices are for the kits that the drivers are used in, not the price of the actual drivers. Either that, or we are talking Peso's instead of dollars!
If you look a little farthur down, the Audax HM170C0 is the midrange driver I used and it is says: Audax A652 kit ($685/pr). That is the speaker kit that it is used in, and the driver by itself (price I paid) is about $60.

Griff,

The statement on that page contradicts the drawings and illustrations on the plans themselves.

In my theater, and probably in most listening environments, it is unlikely I would be able to hear the difference between a driver flush mounted and one that is surface mounted.

If you look at the woofers, you will see that even if flush mounted, the rubber surround would protrude past the front panel of the speaker enclosure. It is for that reason I do not think the difference in performance will be detectable.

I am open to advise from the experts out there. It is relatively easy to use my router to flush mount. I do have to wonder why the plans (on the Audax web-site) drawn by Joe D'Appolito only flush mounted the midrange driver in the center channel.

J. L.

Scott - I visited your site. Lo and behold, your Maverick 2C uses the exact driver/tweeter pair I've picked out for a project I'm planning. They look great!
I noticed that you used Oak Plywood, rather than the standard MDF. I applaud the finished appeal this gives them and would like to shamlessly copy that design. I'm a novice, and have been dutifully conditioned through the reading I've done that hardwoods can cause tonal variances - is this an over-rated thing?

Thanks,
Kevin

Try in your mind to visualize a perfect point source soundwave. An infinitely small point in space creating the soundwave radiating out perfectly in all directions. It should sound beautiful.

Now place that point on an infinite vertical plane like a wall. The sound now only radiates in 180 degrees. A part of the wave follows the plane's surface but it doesn't ever really go to the listener.

OK so now visualize a raised object on this surface (such as a raised speaker rim). As the sound wave that was following the surface encounters this raised object a portion of the wave reflects off this object. It is almost like the point of deflection itself is generating sound. This sound also radiates outwards, but as it encounters other parts of the orginal soundwave they interfere, causing some cancellation, and some reenforcement and rippling somewhat up and down the frequency response.

Are you going to hear this, maybe yes and maybe no. It might be a little bit of distortion, some harshness, muddiness, or less precise imaging.

The protruding rubber surround of a cone driver causes about a 3 db dip in the driver's frequency response at approximately the frequency of 1 wavelength. For a 5" speaker this is about 2k. Some manufacturers try to account for this in the speaker design. I have even heard of some people placing absorbent material on the rubber surround.

Now we further limit our perfect soundwave environment by placing it on a speaker baffle instead of the wall. As the sound wave reaches the edge of the speaker you get diffraction from the edge, with similar negative effects as in hitting a raised object. So on a standard speaker we have each edge deflecting, the raised drivers, speaker covers, etc... etc. All of this will muddy our clarity and imaging.
The edge diffraction is is especially acute with line source speakers in a rectangular baffle, because they will uniformly encounter the edge for the entire length of the line. Whatever the type of speaker, rounded edges are better, the rounder the better.

Also higher frequencies will radiate at 180 degrees due to the baffle, but as the frequencies go lower they will be less affected by the surface of the baffle and tend to radiate more toward 360 degrees. This causes a significant loss of energy. From about 1000hz down to 100hz you gradually lose 6db of sound energy. This is called baffle step loss. Many builders modify the crossover to account for this.

So do what you wish, but it all has an influence on the sound of the end product.

James :)

Scott,

Thank you so much for your valuable information and opinion. May I ask another question to you?

I think you know bending wave transducer or air motion driver such as ones from Manger, German Physics or Heil drivers. Could you tell me your opinion? I think they are aiming at ideal point source reproduction using non-pistonic motion.

jmiyake,

Thank you for the great description of how flush mounting the drivers will help with imaging.

I am just at the point in constructing the Left/Right speakers where I will be attaching the veneer. You convinced me that the effort is worth a few minutes time. I will get out the router once more and cut the rabbet to flush mount the two 6 1/2 inch drivers. It can't hurt.

Now... we do not have a "point source" with conventional cone drivers. Instead, we have a cone shaped surface with millions of infinitely small point sources on its surface. Furthermore, the speaker cone is not infinitely stiff and weightless. Therefore, it cannot be all moving in the same direction at the same time when driven from the movement of the voice coil. It must have "ripples" on its surface radiating outward, similar to those on the surface of a pond of water when you drop in a stone.

The points on the cone closest to the voice coil must be moving before the points on the cone closest to the surround. This, in my mind, is probably one of the major factors why one driver sounds different than another of different construction.

Do we not have the same cancellation, reenforcement and rippling of the sound we hear at our listening position you described no matter what we do? Is it a matter of choosing good drivers and mounting them as best we can?

J. L.
Now... there are also room reflections to deal with... (I doubt I have a perfect room)

-----------------------------------------
Now... we do not have a "point source" with conventional cone drivers
-----------------------------------------
You are very correct in pointing this out. Things are far from perfect. Multiple drivers, crossovers, limited frequency range, driver mass. On and on.

A cone is indeed a compromise, although one that has been greatly refined over the years. It's disadvantages lead many to go to alternative drivers, but each of these have compromises of their own.

Part of the fun is improving on the standard factory approach with better craftsmanship, or better quality components, thicker cabinets, more bracing, better damping, better caps, wire, terminals, rounded edges, at least that's one of the things I like about it.

James

Originally posted by gks
Scott - I visited your site. Lo and behold, your Maverick 2C uses the exact driver/tweeter pair I've picked out for a project I'm planning. They look great!
I noticed that you used Oak Plywood, rather than the standard MDF. I applaud the finished appeal this gives them and would like to shamlessly copy that design. I'm a novice, and have been dutifully conditioned through the reading I've done that hardwoods can cause tonal variances - is this an over-rated thing?


I don't know how over-rated that is, but the simple fact that I am no using a true hardwood remains. The plywood itself only has the veneer on both sides that are hardwood. Would I make the whole thing out of hardwood, no. Why? Probably a combination of cost and the fact that it may cause the variances in sound that is reproduced. One of the biggest reasons I have used the plywood is the fact that I have never done any veneering in my life, and it just seems like one less step by going this route. Actually, it not one less step, since instead of using one peice for the front panel, you actually end up with 4, since you now have the front panel as well as the three oak 1/4 rounds to make up the rounded edges. It is a pain, well, yes. Will I try a veneer finish in the future, yes. Will it be soon, probably not, I have other projects to do!
As far as copying the design, no, I won't have it. Of course I am kidding. If I didn't want anyone to copy my design, I wouldn't have all the info on the web! The center channel design is basically a copy of the Audax A652 speaker design by Joe D'Appolito that they have posted on their web site, except it uses a Vifa tweeter, instead of the Audax.

jheoaustin, I don't know all that much about the single driver style designs. I have never actually heard a Manger in use, except at CES. The thing I do know about them that makes them great is that they do not use any crossovers, so that the signal goes to them and there is nothing electronically that can alter the signal. I would assume you would want to add a subwoofer to the set-up, since I don't think any of those drivers can handle the air moving capabilities that are needed for the low end of the spectrum. Anyone else have an opinion on this style driver?

Originally posted by jheoaustin


One of my future expectation is, rapidly developing DSP technologies drving down room EQ features to reasonable price point. I believe this means that some DIY speakers, not tuned optimally due to some reason, could benefit greatly from room EQ features. I think room EQ can give us a lot more chance to tune the system with DIY speaker a lot better, and the driver quality and potential can be much more important than network fine tuning(and hopefully enclosure). It would be even better if multiamp system with active crossover is employed along with DSP room EQ. [/B]

I am using an active digital crossover with built-in EQ and room EQ with my DIY speakers at the moment. It is the dbx Driverack PA and it works exceptionally well. Check it out at www.driverack.com.

It's not quite as good at room EQ as the TACT I used to own, but the combo of fully active triamping, DIY, great drivers and dipoles creates the best sound I've had.

Steve

Well... it was a bit harder than I expected, but... the drivers can now be flush mounted.

I ran into a tiny snag when using my router to flush mount my drivers in my DIY Audax HT Left/Right speakers. It appears that the hole in the front of the cabinet was just about 1/8th inch smaller than I would have liked. It still fit the driver with plenty of room to spare, but when I used a 1/2 inch rabbeting bit, it turned out the flange of the speaker did not fit in the resulting opening.

I ended up using a sanding drum in my cordless drill to open the rabbet up a bit wider so the speakers would fit. I follow that with some hand sanding to make things look a bit more even... IT took a bit more time than I expected.

http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/Pc220648.jpg

At this point, everything is ready for the veneer. The crossovers are mounted and wired, the front edges rounded over, and everything sanded smooth.

I hope it is worth it. It put me a few hours behind my self imposed schedule... (I wanted to get these done before Christmas)

J. L.
I will hear the difference flush mounting makes... I know I will...

J.L.,

I wasn't trying to throw a monkey wrench in your plans!! But on the other hand, how would you have felt if everyone told you to flush mount the drivers after you'd already veneered and mounted them!?! Will the difference be noticeable? Hell, I don't know! But everything I've read about baffles says to flush mount unless specifically designed for surface mounting. Am I an expert? NO! This is the first set of speakers I've ever built. I want them to sound as good as possible, so the wife won't kill me for this expensive new hobby I"ve taken up!!

Hmmmm, wonder how she's gonna feel about a 30" Sonotube sub.....


And what about a line-array for 2-channel only use...

Pray for me!!

Griff

ooops, double post!

Guys, today, I finally got around to ordering my Audax center and front L/R components. I hope to have the sonosub finished next week. I'm already working on the cabinets for the Audax speakers.
Jeff

J.L.
well the thought that I may have contributed to your extra effort pains me. However your speakers look great. Nice roundovers at the edges too. Very professional!

It does seem that it takes a bit of working to get the flush mount just right.

Please let us know how it turns out.

James

I'm not sure I'll get the L/R front speakers finished by Christmas... It will be close...

I'm going to hold the entire Internet responsible for my missed date. For that reason, neither you Griff, nor you jmiyake, should feel too bad. (My wife says I get lost when browsing... Problem is, there is so much to learn, millions of pages on the web... and they keep adding more. It is hard to keep up :( )

This morning, before setting out for work, I applied "yellow" glue to the top, bottom, and backs of my speakers. I also did the same with pieces of red-oak veneer cut to size for the various surfaces. By the time I get home this evening, they should be dry enough for me to iron on.

I plan on working on one speaker at a time and once I have three sides done, I'll apply glue to the front and sides. I'll let that dry as I go out and do a bit of last minute Christmas shopping. If I am lucky, it will be dry by the time I get back from the stores and I'll get a single piece of veneer wrapped around the front and sides.

J. L.
PS.
My wife is already prepared for the upcoming sonotube sub project. (after the Audax HT rear channels are built) I've showed her pictures (of an 18 inch diameter, 5 1/2 foot tall version similar to the one Jeff Hovis is building) and she has approved. I'm pretty sure Santa is bringing me a 15 inch Adire Tempest driver in a few more days. (Santa...I've been good... honest... :))

I had done an extensive amount of research on DIY speakers including the Internet, Books, and Speaker Builder Magazine. The design I finally went with was the ME2, which is the shorter version of the famous ARIEL.

Link:
http://www.aloha-audio.com/Arieltxt1.html

I have never been so impressed. I did just as the instructions called out. 2.5" thick front oak, MDF board. Triangle cavities in the rear filled with sand, pure unprocessed wool. The sound is unbelievable! Extremely flat, 3D sound. Sounds like the artists are in the room with you. Movies jump off the screen. I couldn't emphasize these speakers more for DIYourselfers.

However, I do enjoy Martin Logan, ribbon type speakers also. I've been looking at a sort-of non-DIY speaker from:
http://www.justrealmusic.com/content/home1.htm

As I posted earlier, I ordered the Audax speakers from Madisound today. At 5:35EST, I received a shipping confirmation and tracking number! Looks like I'm gonna have a lot more MDF dust to vacuum. I'm so glad I moved this project from the basement to the garage.

Originally posted by Jeff Hovis
Guys, today, I finally got around to ordering my Audax center and front L/R components. I hope to have the sonosub finished next week. I'm already working on the cabinets for the Audax speakers.
Jeff

I too am about to put together the Audax center channel. I ordered the parts from Parts Express so I have to actually assemble the crossover. It shouldn't be too bad as I successfully built the L/R crossovers and they actually worked! I pre cut the MDF when I built the L/R speakers, but as I pointed out in a previous post they didn't come out so straight. I need to get a table saw. I think the center channel cuts were much better, but I'll let you know if it has to be rebuilt too. I plan on rebuilding the mains when my new house is done in February.

At the same time I'm going to be building a EBS alignment Shiva Sonosub. I couldn't believe how hard it was to find that stuff. 10 phone calls later and I was able to find a place that actually sold it by the foot.

I'll try to get pics!

later,

Don

I've added more to my diy sonosub site. I should be giving it a test run next week.
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/diy_sonosub001.htm

Jeff

Jeff,

Thanks for the pics of the sonosub build process. I now understand how the circle jig works and will make my own tomorrow when I start mine.

later,

Don

Neuner,

My dream speaker system happens to be 2 Ariels, and 3 ME-2's. maybe after I get off my ass and finish the Audax system I currently have in work, (for far too long). I already have a home for the Audaxes, but that person doesn't know it yet. I want to make sure they work first! The crossovers are being built by me, using specs from Audax page, and some help from speakerbuilder.net. The cool thing is Parts Express is just down the road from me!!

I am looking to see which sub I'm goona build. Right now I have an Infinity BU-2 fart box! Actually, it's not too bad, as long as I don't get crazy with the volume.

Film at eleven!!!!!

Griff

Family get-togethers and holiday shopping took more of my time than I expected. I'm behind schedule... (Perhaps I'll reconsider holding those who convinced me to flush mount the drivers responsible. :))

One speaker is veneered, the other has only the wrap-around front and side piece left to apply. I'm so close to getting these completed.

Trimming the wrap around veneer for the front and sides was done with the razor knife shown here:
http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/PC270649.jpg

Here it is... ready for black aniline dye and finish.
http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/PC270657.jpg

Last time I was in the Woodworker's Supply store in Burlington, NC, I asked what I could use to get a really flat non-glare finish as I found that the satin finish I used on the Audax center speaker was still way more glossy than I would have liked. The salesman told me of a clear spray lacquer labeled "Dead Flat." He said it had no shine at all.

I tried some on a scrap of the veneer I had dyed after making the center channel. I think it will work out really well. It had no shine or gloss at all on my sample. I do not want to see light from my screen reflected from the sides of my Left/Right speakers. We'll soon see if it works as advertised.

Joe L.

Joe,
Again, great photos. My box-o-Audax parts will be here today. BTW, I'm trying to figure out how to use my new router to round the corners. I have a rounding bit but I think I may need one that has a roller-bearing on the tip. Got any pointers?
Jeff

Right on schedule at 9:45am, my Audax parts arrived! Too bad I'm leaving for Charlotte at noon for more family visitation. JL, I'm in the same boat as you...the holiday season has really slowed my progress.
Jeff

J.L.,

Nice work! I hope mine turn out that well. I have the boxes built, but haven't veneered them yet. What kind of veneer did you use? Did you order it over the 'net? If so, where? I've never veneered before, but have done some laminate work, so I think I'll be okay. I haven't bought the parts yet. After the holidays I'll go over to Parts Express and pick them up. I also have to build some boxes for my brother. He brought some speakers over, and wants me to build the boxes. I have no idea what brand drivers they are, so I'm gonna use a generic three-way crossover from PE. He thinks Home Theater in a Box speakers sounds good, so it oughta work.

Good Luck with the boxes, and keep posting pictures!!!!!


Griff:)

Griff,
Check out this site:
http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/
I'm probably going to buy mine from them. I looked at lots of sites and this one has nice photos of each veneer and they quote the price right on their site...others don't.
Jeff

Originally posted by Griff
J.L.,

Nice work! I hope mine turn out that well. I have the boxes built, but haven't veneered them yet. What kind of veneer did you use? Did you order it over the 'net? If so, where? I've never veneered before, but have done some laminate work, so I think I'll be okay. I haven't bought the parts yet. After the holidays I'll go over to Parts Express and pick them up. I also have to build some boxes for my brother. He brought some speakers over, and wants me to build the boxes. I have no idea what brand drivers they are, so I'm gonna use a generic three-way crossover from PE. He thinks Home Theater in a Box speakers sounds good, so it oughta work.

Good Luck with the boxes, and keep posting pictures!!!!!


Griff:)

I would not worry about ordering over the web. (or calling an 800 number)

I used 10 mil paper backed Red Oak Veneer I purchased as Woodworker's Supply company of NC. Fortunately for me, they are in Burlington, NC, about 15 minutes down the road from where I work.

The first 4x8 sheet I purchased I was able to just walk in and they had it in stock. It was enough for the Audax Center, one of the Front speakers, and the top, bottom, and back of the other front speaker. (With a bit of luck and some planning for best use of the material for least waste)

The second time I visited their store, (just before Thanksgiving) they did not have the Red-Oak veneer in stock but offered to drop-ship it with no added shipping charges from the Casper Wyoming store. I took advantage of that offer. It arrived within a few days.

Woodworker's Supply Company - Web catalog page for veneer. (http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=912-475)

From what I saw of the samples on the oakwoodveneer.com site, the red-oak I have is similar to their more expensive rotary cut. It looks to me as if they and the local Woodworker's supply are within a few dollars of each other's price. With that in mind, go with whoever has the veneer you like.

Joe L.

Someone told me about a place called Tapeease.com. They seem to have excellent prices. I'll try to see if anyone has used them, and how happy they were. I don't mind paying a little extra for a good product and good service....

How happy are you guys with the veneers you got?

Griff

Originally posted by Jeff Hovis
BTW, I'm trying to figure out how to use my new router to round the corners. I have a rounding bit but I think I may need one that has a roller-bearing on the tip. Got any pointers?

I definatly reccomend a bit with a bearing on it. Life is just easier with good bearings, so you don't burn any of the wood, it also makes for smoother more even rounds across the whole length of the cut. Make sure you buy the correct cutter for the router, the shank size, that is, and from what I remember, everyone says the larger the radius the better for edges of the cabinets, which normally means a 3/4" round for a 1/4" shank router bit.

I only have experience with purchasing two sheets of one type of veneer (10 Mil, Paper Backed, Red Oak) in one size (4x8 foot sheet) from one company (Woodworker's Supply of NC). I'm not sure if my veneer is representative of the other woods they stock, or if it is easier or harder to work with than other wood veneers.

With all that in mind....

The two sheets of veneer were very similar in grain pattern and in color even though I purchased them several months apart and that they were supplied from different store locations. One was supplied from the main warehouse in Wyoming, the other from the local warehouse in NC. I would not have any issue in building a project using pieces from each sheet. (In fact, I will do exactly that on one of my front speakers)

The quality was very consistent across the entire 4x8 sheet. It was supplied with the grain parallel with the long edge of the sheet. (Important, you may need to check with the vendor which way the grain goes) The pieces were rolled into about an 8 inch diameter tube across the grain. The cardboard carton was therefore about 4 feet long and 8 inches square.

I needed pieces about 35 inches by 28 inches with the grain parallel to the 28 inch side so I could wrap it around the front edges of the Left and Right speakers. This would NOT have been possible in a single piece if I had purchased a 2 foot by 8 foot piece of veneer. Did I mention that you should check with your chosen supplier, otherwise, you may not get the grain in the direction you need for the wrap around style cabinet.

I am very satisfied with the veneer I purchased and the company I purchased it from. The only issue at all was an extra day or two in delivery time when they drop shipped one piece to my house from their main store in Casper, Wyoming over the Thanksgiving holiday. (because their warehouse was closed for the holiday) However, the salesman had alerted me to that delay when I purchased the veneer, and asked me if it was acceptable. I don't think I could have had any easier time with the purchase.

Joe L.

J.L. man that is looking great!
I am almost at the pre-finishing point myself. I managed to get some things done during the break. Difficult since everyone wants to make merry, and give me spiked eggnog. I have a personal rule, no powertools after alcohol. (I still have all my digits) :D Therefore I had to quit early a couple of times.

http://home.earthlink.net/~jmiyake/_uimages/w-drivers.jpg

So I need to do some bondoing, then sanding/sealing. I want a satin black since they are theater speakers. Any tips on finishing? I am not sure about trying the veneer thing. I feel insecure about it.

James

my Linus Array Variants (http://home.earthlink.net/~jmiyake)

Thanks Scott,
My router is a 1/2" with a 1/4" adapter. I've been using a 1/4" straight bit. I'll go back to Home Depot and spend the extra $$ on the bit with a bearing.
jeff

Originally posted by SVonhof
I definatly reccomend a bit with a bearing on it. Life is just easier with good bearings, so you don't burn any of the wood, it also makes for smoother more even rounds across the whole length of the cut. Make sure you buy the correct cutter for the router, the shank size, that is, and from what I remember, everyone says the larger the radius the better for edges of the cabinets, which normally means a 3/4" round for a 1/4" shank router bit.

James,

It is hard to see details in your picture of your line array enclosures. I can see the left and right edge of your enclosure are rounded over. Did you also round over the top and bottom edges?

If you did round over the top and bottom as well as the sides, it will make the use of veneer more difficult as you will need to deal with the corners that have curves in both the horizontal and vertical direction.

As far as tips... Surface preparation is the key to a good finish, even if veneering. If you can run your fingertips over the surface and feel any imperfections, they will show through the finish... even if using veneer.

If you use veneer, it will give you more choices for the final finish. I was looking for a flat black, wood grain finish, similar to one used on many commercial loudspeakers.

From what I have read, hardest to get is a piano gloss finish, the smallest of imperfections will show. Since you are looking for a satin finish, it will be a little easier. Note: even with a satin finish, imperfections will show.

I used Minwax Polycrylic Satin finish on my center channel. It turned out to have a lot of gloss, more than I would have liked. I would suggest you get a quart of whatever you are considering and experiment on a piece of scrap material before using it on your line array enclosure.

I will be using the "Dead Flat" spray lacquer over black, water based analine dye on the Left and Right enclosures. This, with luck, should get me the least reflective surface possible.

I spent far more time getting the surface sanded this time. I also made sure the glue I applied to attach the veneer went on more smoothly than on the center speaker. (I added water to the yellow glue to thin it about 5 percent. It made it a lot easier to apply and get an even coating)
Unevenness in the glue coating showed through the veneer on the back of my center channel. (It was the first piece of veneer I applied. I did it first since it would be least visible)

With all the work you have put into your line arrays, you will want to make them look as good as they sound... and then dissapear when your lower the lights to watch a movie.

Joe L.

JL or anyone else who may know...Can I purchase a veneer glue from Home Depot or do I need to find a woodworking supply shop? I'll probably go ahead and order two sheets for veneer from www.oakwoodveneer.com but they don't sell the adhesive.
Jeff

Jeff,

There are at least two different categories of glue I've read about used to apply veneer.

One category is "contact cements" of which there are two types. One type is water based, the other is not and requires a solvent for cleanup. I've read that the water based type is not recommended for veneer. The solvent based type is very flamable and must be used in a well ventilated area. It is available at your local "Home Depot" or "Lowes" home improvement store. It is commonly used for veneer and laminate.

The other type of glue is the same yellow wood glue you probably already have used in constructing your cabinets. I used "Titebond" brand, but I really don't think it makes much difference as to the brand.

With both categories, you apply a coating of glue to both the back side of the veneer and the surface to be laminated and let them sit until dry to the touch. (This drying step is much faster with the contact cement than with yellow glue)

Once the glue is dry, you can then apply the veneer.

In the case of contact cement, it bonds upon contact. You must keep the glue surfaces from touching until you have them aligned. I think that would have been very difficult with the wrap around front and side piece of veneer. Once the surfaces touch, they bond. (on contact!) they cannot be re-positioned.

With dried yellow glue, you use a hot iron to apply heat to the veneer to melt the glue between it and the cabinet. You can work from the center outward taking your time to smooth the veneer over the rounded edges of the cabinet. If you do not like the way it bonds, I imagine, heat could let you remove a piece of laminate and re-apply it (I did not have to resort to this since this method is very forgiving).

I used a double thickness of aluminum foil on the bottom of the iron to protect it from any glue for when we need to use it again to iron clothes. (Does anybody iron anymore?) If anything, it helped keep any residual steam (it was my wife's steam iron) from moistening the veneer.

Check out the following links:
How to apply veneer using hot iron and yellow glue and advantages over contact cement (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_3_3/v3n3d.html#finishing)

Further details of hot iron and yellow glue veneer technique (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_5_2/diy8titansubwooferjune98.html)

Joe L.

Thanks JL,
I didn't realize that I could use the yellow glue. I think I also have Titebond Supreme or something like that. Thanks for the pointers.
Jeff

Since we have been talking about roundover bits...
I have always believed in rounding edges to lessen edge diffraction. Until recently I thought the 3/4" radius roundover bearing bit at the hardware store was the largest available, and I have used it all over.

Of course the more gradual the edge the better. I found out that they make a 1.5" radius roundover bearing bit! (I had no idea.) So I HAD to get one of these. I located one at an industrial tool store in town. It was very expensive $140. (Don't tell the wife...) I was extremely scared about whether my router could handle it and how it would cut, since the bit was HUGE, about 3 5/8" in diameter with a 1/2" shank! I had to manufacture a custom base for it since it was about 1" bigger than the current router opening. The bit is actually too large to sit within the router and I had to mount the bit below the router and make the base thick enough to engulf the edge. I used 3/8" clear acrylic.

I was very worried about whether it would work, but it cut just fine. It did make the most amazing amount of sawdust I have ever seen, I have a vacuum attachment for the router, but it couldn't even keep up with the 5 foot fountain of sawdust this bit was making. I mean it was pulverizing almost the equivalent of a 1" x 1" on a single pass.

Anyway here is a picture of the giant bit, my custom base, the dwarfed router, and the radius that was cut.

I love the broad radius, it begins almost at the end of the flush mounted drivers.

J.L. you can see in this picture I only rounded the vertical edges.

James
http://home.earthlink.net/~jmiyake/_uimages/roundover.jpg

James,

Wow... you do things in a BIG way. That is one heck of a router bit. I'm pretty sure that was intended to be used in a table mounted router or jointer. I'll bet it took a bit of courage to take it to the sides of your enclosure.

Given that you did not round over the top and bottom edges of your enclosures, I would go with a veneer finish applied using the dry yellow glue and hot iron on technique. It is really hard to mess it up and the resulting surface would be great even if you decide to finish with a satin lacquer top coat rather than the more traditional stain, etc.

I really like the way the black aniline dye soaked into my veneer to give me a very uniform color with very little effort. It was much easier than the usual wax based stains I have used in the past. I used a 1 inch foam brush and it blended very well since it has the consistency of water. It results in a very flat black surface with a nice grain texture.

Once at that point, you can try different finishes on a scrap to get the desired gloss (or satin) finish. Only then do I recommend that you use the top finish on your line array cabinets.

Joe L.

Joe L., could you pass on more info on your dead flat spray? Brand name, MFG part number, whatever? I would like to see if my local HD or Lowes has it so I can try it!
jmiyake, HOLY CRAP BATMAN! That is one honkin bit! I don't think I would do that with a hand-held router! Scare the crap out of me to even try it! I beleive you when you say that your vacuum could not keep up, especially with MDF! Looking good! When you are all done, can I come over and check it out? I live in Manteca, about an hour from SJ.

I concur!

Originally posted by SVonhof
HOLY CRAP BATMAN! That is one honkin bit! I don't think I would do that with a hand-held router! [/B]

Scott,

The spray lacquer I purchased is made by "H. Behlen" as part of their "Master" brand. The MFG model number is B101-0883.

I purchased it from Woodworker's Supply in Burlington, NC. It is their catalog number 934-154. It was the salesman there who recommended it if I was looking for a flat finish with no gloss or shine.

If you go to their web-site (woodworker.com) and search for "dead flat" you will find it for $6.99 a can.

It is in a 13 oz blue colored spray can.

The label says:

H. Behlen
Master
Jet Spray
Lacquer Finish
B101-0883
Jet Spray
Lacq. Clr. Dead Flat


The back of the can says in small print:

For Industrial and Commercial Use only.
Manufactured by: H. BEHLEN & BRO.
Amsterdam, N.Y. 12010 - An RPM Company.

I have not seen the brand at either of the local Lowes or Home Depot. I did a search on the web and it looked like it was carried by places catering to refinishers and woodworkers.

As I said in an earlier message, I tried it on a piece of scrap veneer I had dyed black with the aniline dye and once it dried, I could not tell any difference from where I had applied the lacquer and where I had not. Both were flat black. The lacquer added no shine of its own.

Joe L.

Sure Scott, you'd be welcome.
Always happy to talk with another HT/stereo enthusiast. The sound of a Line Array is rather addicting, fast, big, dynamic, powerful.
Do you like ale?
James

Scott said: Holy Crap! Batman
Jeff said: Holy Crap! Batman
I had a speaker building friend come over yesterday.
When she saw the bit she said: Holy Crap!

It went really smooth. I took it slowly, but there was no jumping, no chatter and no real problems. So I don't know if I am reckless, or what.

James
(I still have all my body parts)

I made a bit of progress today on the Audax HT Left/Right Front speakers.:)

The wrap-around piece of veneer was attached yesterday evening to the front/sides of the second enclosure. I trimmed it this morning, gave the edges of the veneer a final sanding, and took the enclosures outside to apply the aniline dye.

After several coats of dye, the enclosures looked like this:
http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/PC290664.jpg

Here you can see the wrap-around veneer and how nice it looks once trimmed and dyed:
http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/PC290669.jpg

I used a roundover bit on the ports. I also cut about a 1/8th inch rabbet to make it easy to trim the veneer. Here you can see the rear of the enclosures. The second hole is for the terminal cup.
http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/PC290672.jpg

Since I did not have enough time for the water based aniline dye finish to dry and then apply the lacquer, I brought the enclosures inside to finish drying overnight. It would also let me judge how they would look adjacent to the screen in my theater. (Wife and I watched a movie this evening. The enclosures reflected very little light from the screen... We are both pleased with the appearance)
http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/PC290678.jpg

So close... Tomorrow is supposed to be warm. I just might be able to sand the grain raised from the first coats of applied dye, and then apply another coat of dye to even out the color. (As long as I don't get stuck at work too late)

Joe L.

James, you will have to let me know when they are done, and I will come on over. Do I like Ale? Depends what kind, I guess. I am more into the Cabernet's and the Tawny Ports and desert wines.

Joe, those speakers are looking great. Time for me to start some more projects with the woodworking skills. I want to re-do my equipment rack someday, I will try to get some of the laquer for that project and may end up re-making my speaker cabinets someday....

James,
I like ale;-) I also like a good Cabernet or an Aussie Shiraz! I also love those speakers you're building! JL, yours are looking great also.

As for my speakers, yesterday was in the 60s here and I didn't get anything done but priming. Today, it's a lot cooler and I have sanded and added a second coat of primer to the sonosub end caps. I have also started painting the tube but the temp is in the 40s and the paint probably won't dry. On the other hand, I finally opened the boxes of Audax parts to check against the packing slip and man, these are nice components! The individual Audax boxes are very well put together and presented very nicely. Madisound did a nice job packing it all and were able to use the foam for padding. Maybe, I'll start cutting the cabinets for these while the paint on the sonosub dries.
Jeff

J.L.

Again your speakers are looking wonderful. These pics, and the fact that my center channel is coming along really nicely has reaffirmed my desire to rebuild the cabinets for my L/R Audax's.

I'll post pics of the speaker hopefully tomorrow. Unfortunately the weather has not allowed me to build where I am temporarily living and having to drag the kids to my parents while I'm using my Dad's garage is not fun either. I'm going to have to wait until my new house is done to apply the finish as well as finish the sonosub.

The upside is the crossovers will be done tomorrow, if I get my back ordered part, for the center channel and I am going to place the shiva in the box I built for it a few months ago. I am going to haul my system over to my parents, where my Mits is located, on Thursday and test everything out. It has been awhile since I watched a movie on decent TV with a decent sound system.

Scott,

I might take you up on your offer of using the table saw in a couple of months.

Later,

Don

?? Manteca Man (darthopus), are you drowning in all the rain that is coming down, causing you to mis-type and submit reply?

Scott,

Let that be a lesson to all about leaving your laptop in mid post, near a toddler, while you make a bottle for your 4 month old. She managed to type in garbage, submit the reply and shut down the browser. She's cute most of the time!

Don

A Major Milestone!

My line arrays are wired and connected and now playing at a theater downstairs. Still unfinished, but I want to do some tuning and tweaking, then I'll round out the port hole and finish it.

They arrays seem much bigger in the house, than in the garage. The wife likes them! (Thank God for that!) They really need to be flat black, when I put on the projector, I was getting a bit of reflection washout on the screen. Also the inside walls of the speakers would glow.

As far as the sound?
Well it is to early to make any judgments, the speakers are not broken in. The woofer crossover is not optimal and the port is not tuned yet.

But...Good things seem to be in store.
The sound is BIG! Dynamic. Exciting. Yet after just a bit of tweaking, very precise, and detailed. The sense of space is amazing.

However it is not even close to being dialed in yet. There is some harshness and some peaking in the crossover area. Which make certain types of music that emphasize this region a bit unpleasant. the mids and the tweets seem to be overlapping too much. I am able to affect this sound in messing with the crossover, but I don't have the correct parts yet to bring things in line. It seems very fixable.

The cabinets are so dead. No vibration is apparent even while they are blasting loudly. Tapping on them is like tapping on concrete. Check my link for some of the steps I took to insure a dead cabinet.

Linus Array Variants (http://home.earthlink.net/~jmiyake/index.html)

I have definitely noticed the woofers smoothing out due to break in over the last few hours. (Maybe it's my ears, but I don't think so.)

Also my early listening hints that I will probably want a center channel. Although the image stays in front of you, if you move to an extreme right or left, it leaves the center of the screen which does not surprise me. The phantom center thing works ok if the speakers are close enough, and you stay near enough the sweet spot. When I went front projection, and spread out the speakers for the screen, the whole phantom thing fell apart.

Anyway, Happy New Year everyone!

James (of the Two Towers) :D

http://home.earthlink.net/~jmiyake/_uimages/setUp3op.jpg

In-freakin credible! Nice job.
Jeff

JL,
I worked on my sub and my center all day today. I took off about 7-hrs for a little New Year's family time. I came down to the basement to check the progress of my drying center. I have a question: What type of bit do you use to flush mount the drivers? Are you just using a straight bit set at a shallow depth and moving it over a little at a time or is there a specific bit for this?
Jeff

Jeff,

To flush mount my drivers, I used a roller bearing rabbeting bit similar to the one pictured at this link:rabbeting bit (http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=887-635&LARGEVIEW=ON)

The bit I used was a 1/2 inch rabbeting bit. I set the router depth so it would cut about 1/4 in deep and let the roller rest against the driver opening.

Now... It would have been much easier if the driver opening was 1/2 inch smaller than the required diameter for the front flange of the driver. In my case, it was about 1/8th inch smaller than I needed. I then had to make the rabbet wider using a sanding drum.

When I build the rear channels, I'll make sure that the driver opening is exactly 1/2 inch smaller than the opening I need for the flush mount. This will also make it very easy to trim the veneer as I can simply use the same bit, set for very shallow depth to trim the veneer in the driver openings. (By the time I finish the HT speakers, I'll know how to build them.. if I were to do it again. :))

You could use your straight cutting bit if you made a template to guide it. (Just might save you $30 and another trip to the hardware store.) Simply cut a circle in a piece of 1/4 plywood with a diameter such that when the router base is held against its inside edge, the router bit would trace a circle the diameter needed for the driver flange. Then temporally clamp the guide to the cabinet and the rest is easy.

Joe L.

Thanks JL,
As soon as I saw rabbeting bit, I remembered. I'm thinking about using my handy little Jasper Circle Jig to cut a series of decreasing 1/4" deep circles. I would start at the widest point and move the cut inward until it is wide enough for the flange. Shouldn't take too many passes. Then, I will simply cut all the way through for my drivers. It takes 5-seconds to change the setting on my circle jig. Sounds simple enough...I'll know this afternoon when the glue is all dry. My center will be fully assembled minus veneer by tomorrow. I built the box yesterday.
Jeff

Thanks Jeff.
I am excited, and really really relieved, that it seems to be working out.

The thing to get your head around is if you flush mount your drivers, the outer diameter is the one that matters. Really you have some play for the inner hole and it's exact size is not important. However you must make sure you have sufficent space available for the screws to bite into, and some drivers leave very little play.

I had to get fairly good at this, I had 18 woofer holes to flush mount, with a separation of 1/8".

Anyway I used the 2 template method.
We carefully marked the centerline of each woofer on the baffle surface.

I used a collet, and separate templates for the outer inset and inner hole. Using a collet, means that my template holes are oversized by 1/8" Also I found 1/2" shank bits much more stable on 1" thick pieces of MDF. I really recommend them.

I created a template for the outer diameter with a block to align it the correct distance from the vertcal edge of the baffle, and drilled and marked holes to be able to correctly align to the centerline of the woofer to the centerline markings on the baffle. I also drilled a spotter hole that would let me see the edge of the previous hole to double check my alignment. Since the most critical issue was to insure the drivers were correct distance apart.

When you router the outer inset, remove sufficent material around the edge so that you don't need to go back and clean up material between the outer inset and the inner hole. Also make sure you account for the thickness of driver damping/sealing material, and perhaps finish (veneer, laminate, 18 coats of hand polished lacquer, whatever.)

For the inner hole, I created a similar template again with a stop block to align the vertical edge of the baffle. To align with the outer inset I drilled alignment holes on the template centered on the diameter of the larger outer hole. When I placed the inner hole template on top of the routered outer inset, I used the back of a drill bit as a feeler gauge, to insure equal distance from both edges.

A couple of other things that you might want to consider. (These are the kinda things that drive you mad.) Some builders consider it important to place some sort of damping to decouple the driver from the speaker baffle to reduce cabinet vibration caused by direct contact between the cabinet wall, and the basket of the driver. Well, consider how this is complicated in a flush mounted situation. Not only should you decouple from the back of the driver, but now you need to decouple from the edge of the outer inset. Also if this type of madness becomes important to you, than you will wish to torture yourself further by considering the fact that the hole will shrink slighty during humid conditions.

Have a nice day :D
James

Jeff,

To flush mount my center midrange driver, I did exactly what you are saying... I used my circle jig (jasper jig equivalent) to cut a 1/4 inch deep groove the diameter of the driver flange, then changed pin locations in the jig to cut a smaller diameter hole completely through the MDF for the driver itself.

You only need the rabbeting bit with the bearing if you are doing it after you have the hole for the driver cut. I did it that way for my L/R front speakers when I was convinced by jmiyake to take a few minutes to flush mount the midwoofers... after I had already cut the driver openings.

As I said earlier, if you have the rabbeting bit, it will make it easier to trim the veneer as it will do the job in seconds rather than having to cut the veneer by hand as I had to do. (Actually, I used the rabbeting bit first, andd then cut the remaining 1/8 inch with the razor knife by hand.)

I suppose you could to the same thing if when using the jasper jig, you make the flange diameter 1 inch wider than the driver opening diameter. Then you could use the 1/2 inch rabbeting bit to trim the veneer.

You are making great progress... way faster than me. I still have to build the rear speakers before I start my sonosub. If I was closer to you, I would be interested in your spare 6 ft length of sonotube, :( unfortunately, with gas prices as they are, it is less expensive to purchase it locally.

Joe L.

jmiyake & JL,
Thanks for all the pointers. It's nice to have people who have done this stuff before.

Measure twice, cut once!
Jeff

OK,
I've updated the sonosub page:
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/diy_sonosub001.htm

and I've also added a new page for my Audax speaker project:
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/audax_center001.htm

Jeff

Jeff

Guys,
I'm looking very closely at the Audax PDF and for the center channel, it only shows the midrange being flush mounted.

As for the L&R front speakers...the PDF doesn't show anything being flush mounted.

Could someome 'splain this to me?
Jeff

Jeff,

There are conflicting statements and drawings on the Audax web-site. The PDF files only show the midrange on the center flush mounted. Granted, it is probably the most critical driver in the entire HT set as most dialog will come through it.

Another page says to flush mount all drivers, except the tweeters, since their design does not require that they be flush mounted. I can only guess that either different people wrote those pages and illustrations, or, perhaps Joe D'Apolitto did not initially think it worth the effort to flush mount the drivers, but changed his mind after the drawings were submitted to Audax but before the web-pages were put on line. We can only guess.

Back around this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=1660202#post1660202) I asked the same question. Was it worth the effort?

A strong argument was made to flush mount the drivers, so I did on the Left/Right front enclosures currently being built.

Will I hear the difference? Who knows? But technically, I was convinced by other forum members that it is better for precise imaging.

Joe L.

Oh well, looks like I'm going to have to go back with a rabbeting bit and flush mount the woofers in the midrange. The Audax site has been down and I can't get in.
Jeff

Originally posted by Ted White
Looking for plans for very high quality theater speakers. I'm not into design software, but rather looking for some plans that have been proven winners.

Anyone?

Ted What is a DIV speaker? I have no idea what that means and curiosity is killing me.

JL,
I'm wondering if you have a picture of your crossover wiring? I've never built speakers before and don't know nothin 'bout lectronics. The instruction sheet shows diagrams of the boards but I need directions that say connect A to B and so forth.

Any guidance from anyone on these things would be welcome.
Thanks,
jeff

DIY = Do It Yourself. Speakers that are build, from scratch, kits, or plans.

James

I spent the morning putting four coats of dead flat clear lacquer on my Audax HT front enclosures. The finish came out exactly as I wanted.

Once they were dry, it was time to mount the drivers and give them a try.

They sound pretty decent. Deep bass and nice mids and highs too. I'll have to let them play for a few days to break them in before I do any critical listening but so far, I am very happy.

http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/P1010682.jpg

As you can see from the picture, these are not small speakers. They stand about 25 inches tall and probably weigh about 40 lbs. In the background you can see the center channel atop my stage.

Now... I can start on the rear speaker enclosures... This must mean it is time for another trip to Home Depot to get more MDF.... and make more sawdust...

Jeff,
I'm not sure what you want to see with a picture of the crossover? Madisound gave a wiring diagram showing their physical crossover layout and how to connect them to the drivers. That was in addition to the schematic diagram of the crossovers. It might be what you are looking for. It is on the last page of the instructions (it may be on the back of the last page)

Joe L.

Ahh, I think I'm missing that page. I definitely need something that says connect a wire here and here and here...you know I need my hand held all the way when it gets to the wiring.
Jeff

JL,
I almost forgot to tell you that those speakers look great! My center is gigantic when compared to my old center. I took some pictures comparing the two on my siy site.
Jeff

J.L., everything looks really good!

Jeff,

I have some pics of the crossovers I built for my L/R Audax speakers. They aren't from Madisound though. I built them using components from Parts Express. I'm sure they don't look as pretty as the Madisound ones, but they work!

I can post them for you with a brief write up of what goes where. Are the Madisound xovers already assembled? If so the write up will be easy. If not I can try and help the best I can.

Let me know how detailed you need and I can start typing!

later,

Don

Hi Don,
The Madisound crossovers are prebuilt. I called them today and they talked me through it by phone. I think I can get it now. If not...I'll cry to you guys some more.
Thanks for the offer,
Jeff

Originally posted by darthopus
Jeff,

I have some pics of the crossovers I built for my L/R Audax speakers. They aren't from Madisound though. I built them using components from Parts Express. I'm sure they don't look as pretty as the Madisound ones, but they work!

I can post them for you with a brief write up of what goes where. Are the Madisound xovers already assembled? If so the write up will be easy. If not I can try and help the best I can.

Let me know how detailed you need and I can start typing!

later,

Don

Jeff,

No problem. You should try being cheap like me. I saved a couple of hundred by buying the componets and building them myself, but it took several hours of reading various crossover tutorials until I felt comfortable doing it.

I've added more updates to the Audax page:
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/audax_center001.htm

and the sonosub page:
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/diy_sonosub001.htm
Jeff

Jeff,

Nice progress on both of your projects. It is really great to be able to follow along. Eventually, I'll need to put together a set of web-pages. So far, I have just linked images to this thread.

I noticed that you cut away the MDF behind the flange on the Audax midrange driver. Did you leave enough material so you can make an airtight seal when you mount the midrange driver? (madisound supplied foam weatherstripping tape to help make an airtight the seal in the kit of parts they sent me) I think it is supposed to be a sealed sub-enclosure.

Joe L.

JL,
I checked that last nignt and it "seems" to be airtight. Originally, I made the opening exactly as the instructions said and the mid driver would not go all the way in. That's why I cut the slots with a jigsaw. I may have to trim the weatherstripping a little and use some caulk to finish the job.
Jeff

Jeff, what the heck? I didn't read all the info on your sono-sub, but how are you going to finish the outside of the sub, since it is red right now, and much smaller on the O.D. than the top and bottom caps.

Scott,
I had one of those artsy moments and I've got to see if it will work. If it does, I'll post the pics of the finished exterior tonight. If it doesn't work...I'm painting it black and putting a sock on it;-) Originally, I wanted my Audax speakers to have woodtone finishes but after seeing JLs done in flat black to reduce reflections, I may do the same. I was also going to build some stands but now I'm rethinking that as well. I may build a stage and either enclose the fronts in the stage of a set of MDF columns.

Here's a question to you guys: If I build a stage or columns to house the center and fronts...do I stuff it/them with insulation?

Jeff

Depends on the stage. If your stage is actually a false front wall, you can build it out of 2x4's and cover it all with black fabric, leaving it for the most part, "open". This will not create a cavity to place the speaker in, therefore eliminating the secondary box. You may want to start browsing the posts in the "Home Theater Builder" section.

Guys two things:
1st a question about crossovers. I have soldered all the wire from the crossovers to the speakers. Next I have to solder on the input wires. My question: Do I just run separate wires from the positive and negative terminals to each input on the three crossovers or do I run these things in series?

2nd...The sonosub is finished! I had to work out a bug but got it at 1am. I still have to complete the outside but it's done!

Jeff,

The three sets of wires (one from each crossover board) are wired in parallel to the terminal cup. I'm sure you already know, but just in case, make sure you keep the "polarity" as indicated in the crossover schematic.

To wire my crossovers, I used speaker wire where one lead was tinned and the other was copper colored and made the copper colored wire the "+" polarity.

Therefore, I connected all three "+" wires (copper colored) from the crossovers to the red binding post on the terminal cup, and all the "-" wires (silver colored) to the black binding post.

Oh yes, the wider terminal on the Audax drivers is the "+" terminal and the narrower terminal the "-". This was not clearly indicated on my tweeter and I had to go the the Audax web-site to get their spec sheet to figure it out. ( I notice their web-site is still not on-line, so figured you would have a tough time getting to their specs )

I used .187 inch (4.8mm) female quick disconnect terminals to make the connections to my drivers. I used the same size for both + and - connections. Although they are available at Radio Shack in a terminal assortment they carry, I found the local Autozone parts store carried boxes of 22 for less than it would cost for the two or three assortment packs you would need to buy from RadioShack.

The terminals are a very tight fit, therefore I "loosened" them up just a tiny bit using the tip of a jewelers screwdriver before attaching them to the terminals on the Audax drivers. I did not want to damage the drivers by applying too much force.

Sounds like you are making lots of progress. I liked the picture of your old center channel speaker perched atop the new center cabinet. What type of display do you have in your theater to support the center channel? CRT:)? LCD:)? Widescreen Direct view:)? 12 inch B/W TV:( ?

Have you given any thoughts yet about stands for your speakers? I will have to decide myself. Currently, the Left and Right are sitting atop small subwoofer cabinets on each side of my stage. Those subwoofers will be replaced with a sonosub like the one you are building in the next few months. My wife and I are trying to find a style of stand we both like (and one that is easily built) for the L/R speakers. I want their tweeters to be at ear level when we are seated. The center channel is another issue.

I was lucky enough to attend a talk given by Dennis Erskine on the 2002 Home Theater cruise discussing theater design and audio. He described that we are much better off placing the center speaker above the screen than below. This is because we are better at localizing sounds near the ground (below ear level) than near the ceiling (above ear level) Since in this case we want the sound to seem to come from the screen rather than below it, he said it will sound more integrated with the images on the screen if mounted above it.

I will be making a suspended shelf for my center speaker. It will be finished "flat black" to reflect as little light as possible and be above my screen, angled downward to point the speaker toward my front row of seats. When I do that, it will get rid if the distracting reflection of light from the screen I currently have from the top rounded edge of the cabinet.

So little time... so much sawdust... I have to get more MDF from Home Depot.

Joe L.
PS. Ok, now that you finished the sub at 1 AM, did you have the nerve to test it or will you wait till the morning when the rest of your family is awake? Let us know how it sounds.

JL,
Thanks for the confirmation on wiring. I've been using similar wire in my cabinet and also wrap each positive end with a piece of blue electrical tape.
I've purchased my connectors from Home Depot. Last night, I wore out one soldering tip and will probably need to buy more. Thanks for the tip about the speaker terminals, I hadn't noticed the difference.

In my theater, I use front projection. I just sold my CRT to a fellow in Louisiana and I bought a DLP. I'm not a purest or an audiophile and I like the bright picture and the blacks are really good on this thing. Best of all is the size and it's plug-n-play connection. The CRT could be a real pain if you moved it an inch.

Stands: I plan to build a set of stands similar to these
http://www.rutledgeaudiodesign.com/ (click on the GR Research button to see Brian Bunge's stands). RAD is a compnay in GA that primarily builds cabinets for speaker companies. He is also getting into the install business and designs his own speakers. For my center, I may build one like Mike Knapp did for his over on HTT http://www.hometheatertalk.com/Reviews/My_System/my_system.html
Scroll down to the "Black Mamba" Adire Center Channel speaker he built.

As soon as I'm finished with the speakers, I'll be turning my HT around to make it larger. It is currently in a narrow space at one end of the finished basement that is 11x12 feet. When I turn it around, the size will increase to 14x30. The width expands by two feet once you are beyond the 11' width of the current location. That used to be a separate room and we had the wall removed to open up the space. The screen will be on the 11' wall. I'll have pictures as I move it around. I'm also considering a stage and some columns to possibly house the C, FL & FR speakers. If I do that, I may not veneer them. I'm really torn on that one. I love the look of a nicely turned-out speaker and I'd like to be able to show them off. On the other hand, I like the real theater look of enclosed speakers. I'm leaning toward finishing the speakers and the theater w/o the stage and if I decide I need a new project, the stage and enclosed speakers will be it.

Guys,
More on the sonosub. I got a chance to turn up the volume more this morning. All I can say is make sure your room is large enough for one of these things. I still have it in the small end of my basement HT and it energized the entire room. I could feel the pressure change and it made the hairs on my arm move. Once I get into the larger space, I'll be very selective about it's location.

Jeff,

Click on the links on the left of the following page to see a great looking set of stands for the Audax Home Theater Front speakers. Also check out the link for the Stands.

I am thinking of something like these... but in flat black to match my speakers.
Check out the Audax HT speakers and Stands built by this DIY'er (http://home.tampabay.rr.com/bpsdesigns/)

Great news on the sub... I figured your family would not have been happy if you cranked up the volume on it in the middle of the night... I can't wait to start on mine... but first, the rear surround speakers have to be built. I'm going to Home Depot this afternoon... there is hope yet I'll catch up to you.

Joe L.

JL,
I've seen that exact site before. Those are nice stands and I think the same design as Brian's at RAD. I'll be out of town from Mon-Thurs and won't get to work on mine again until next Fri. I still have some time today and tomorrow but today is Christmas decoration take-down day.
jeff

I'm looking at building a sealed sub into a knee wall in my home theater. I'm planning to use a 15" driver... Stryke AV15 seems like one of the best. Since the knee wall is essentially dead space, I can build a fairly large box that could be on the order of 12-15 CF. All the designs I've seen are targeted at 3-4 CF enclosures. My thinking that as the box gets bigger it starts to approach an Infinite baffle design. Is there any disadvantage to making it larger than the T/S parameters call for ? The box will be triangular and be externally braced by the roof joists, floor joists, and knee wall framing. I'm also thinking about doing some internal bracing. I've seen that a number of people cut a series of random holes into a sheet of MDF for the internal brace. Is there any science to this or is it just cut a bunch of holes while leaving sufficient meat to make it stiff ?

Thanks
Bruce

actually intended to post this to the DIY sub thread....

After reading thru this thread, the Audax kit caught my interest. When I go to their website, it is dead. Does anyone know if Audax is still around or whether they have gone the way of the dodo? Also, do speaker kits never/sometimes/always include a schema for building the cabinets? I imagine they would, but would like to hear from someone who knows. Thanks.

Brian S.

i think madisound still has audax kits.

Thanks. I noticed that Madisound, among others, still carry the kits. But the concerning thing is that most sites that sell Audax have broken links to Audax.

Also, anyone know whether speaker kits never/sometimes/always include a schema for building the cabinets?

Thanks again,

Brian S.

Many of them have reccomended sizes or dimensions. The construction styling of the cabinets are up to you, as is the ratios, since sometimes the size they have spec'ed will not work for placement.

If you buy the kits from Madisound, you'll get prebuilt crossovers and cabinet plans. The Audax site has been down for about a week now. I don't think they are out of business...at least I hope not.
Jeff

Originally posted by Vrooman
Thanks. I noticed that Madisound, among others, still carry the kits. But the concerning thing is that most sites that sell Audax have broken links to Audax.

Also, anyone know whether speaker kits never/sometimes/always include a schema for building the cabinets?

Thanks again,

Brian S.

Madisound included printed copies of the Audax web-pages needed to construct the Audax Home Theater speakers with their "kits" I did not need to use the material from the audax web-site to construct the cabinets. The supplied paper copies were sufficient.

As Steve said, the dimensions (inside and outside dimensions) of the cabinet are given. As he also indicated, I was able to keep the volume of the Left/Right front speakers as designed and yet reduce their depth, by increasing their height accordingly. Most folks will not need to do this.

Also...

I did a quick check and the Domain Name Server entry for Audax.com expired on Dec 25, 2002. That is why we can't get to their web-site.

I sent e-mail to the two contacts listed in WHOIS to alert them to the situation.

In the meantime, anybody know the actual IP address of the www.audax.com site? I'll bet they are still accessible via it.

Joe L.


Registrant:
Audax America, Inc. (AUDAX-DOM)
6 New England Executive Park, Suite 400
null
US

Domain Name: AUDAX.COM

Administrative Contact:
Nichols, Ralph (RNJ25) RNichols2@HARMAN.COM
Audax
6 New England Executive Park, Suite 400
Burlington , MA 01803
781-229-7355 (FAX) 781-229-7356
Technical Contact:
Young, Sean (SY679) sean_k_young@hotmail.com
DEADLINE
514 Fourth St.
New Orleans, LA 70130
US
504-606-7883 123 123 1234

Record expires on 25-Dec-2002.
Record created on 24-Dec-1995.
Database last updated on 6-Jan-2003 11:43:06 EST.

Domain servers in listed order:

NS1.SHORE.NET 192.233.85.129
NS3.SHORE.NET 192.233.145.6

BTW, There is an Audax site that is in French, but allows for english translation. It is very limited as to what is on there, but if anyone wants to e-mail them through that site, it may be a good idea. The site is: www.audax.fr

Bummer...

The email I sent to Ralph Nicholes came back as undeliverable.

Reason: Unknown Recipient

I saved the Audax home theater system info from their web site to my hard drive a couple years ago when I was considering the system. I can probably zip up the files and send to those interested.

EMT,

I have the three PDF files (plans for the Center, L/R, and Rear speakers) but do not have the text from the web-site that describes the speakers.

Do you have copies of the web-pages themselves?

J. L.

I just looked up the IP address for www.audax.com. It's 209.58.221.7, and yes it is still active. However, they appear to be using virtual server software that relies on seeing "www.audax.com" in the URL you use to hit the site, so simply typing in that IP into your browser address bar won't work.

You can, of course, add an entry mapping www.audax.com to 209.58.221.7 into your C:\Windows\system32\drivers\etc\hosts file, and then you should be able to access the site as www.audax.com. You may or may not need to reboot after editing the file.

(Note: I don't know anything about Audax; just thought I'd be helpful here...)

skriefal,

Thanks for the true IP address. I tried to figure out how to determine the real IP address, but everything I found relied on the name server lookup... which obviously is not working.

I added the entry to my hosts file so I could capture copies of the web-pages. It works as expected.

Now all we need to do is get somebody at Audax to renew their domain registration. I'll bet they don't even know they are off the map.

Thanks again....

Joe L.

Joe I had to laugh... I went home and checked out whether or not I had d/l the web-page as I am fond of doing and I hadn't... but I had copies of every one of your pictures of the Center Channel :D

blitzkreig,

I didn't think my photography skills were that good. I am honored for someone to have started a collection.

Joe L.
(It is a good thing you can't see all the bad photos I erase. You would lose all respect for my work:D)

Do you have copies of the web-pages themselves?
Yes.

i`ve seen 3 ways crossover at RS are they anygood
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=40%2D1299

saffa,

It is my understanding that a crossover is designed using the specific drivers in a speaker enclosure to put the crossover points where they will work best. The values depend upon the drivers characteristics. (resistance, inductance, frequency range, etc)

It also is typically designed so the the output level of the different drivers is matched based on their relative efficiency. (so the woofers play at the same volume as the midrange and tweeters)

If the universal crossover has the crossover points at those that match your drivers, and if your drivers are matched in efficiency, then it might work for you.

Since there are programs that model crossovers, If Radio Shack provides a schematic, I would model it with my specific drivers and see if it would be suitable.

I can tell you one thing. It will probably be better than running the woofer full range and using a single non-polarized electrolytic capacitor as the "crossover" for the tweeter that I've seen used in most of the less expensive speakers I've taken apart in my youth. But, unless very very lucky, it will not be as good as a crossover designed for your specific drivers.

Joe L.

JL,
Anymore to report on the break-in of the fronts and center speakers?
jeff

Jeff,

The speakers have broken in nicely. My wife and I are very happy with how they sound. Currently, we are using them with one of the PartsExpress budget 10" DLS subwoofers. (In my case, it was *yery* budget, as I only paid $20 for it at the Dayton Hamvention last year...It was not functional, but a 20 cent resistor in the plate amp fixed that)

I'm working crazy hours this next week or so. We are doing a massive data conversion project that we figure will start this evening at 8PM and finish on the 27th. With any luck, I'll be able to get a bit of time during the daylight hours to be able to cut some MDF for the Audax Rear speakers and some speaker stands.

Soon after that, I'll be building a sonosub. (Adire 15 inch Tempest driver)

Joe L.

Well JL,
I now have the same problem and I'm going back...again, to Home Depot to buy a sanding drum to widen the rabbit.
jeff

Originally posted by J. L.
Well... it was a bit harder than I expected, but... the drivers can now be flush mounted.

I ran into a tiny snag when using my router to flush mount my drivers in my DIY Audax HT Left/Right speakers. It appears that the hole in the front of the cabinet was just about 1/8th inch smaller than I would have liked. It still fit the driver with plenty of room to spare, but when I used a 1/2 inch rabbeting bit, it turned out the flange of the speaker did not fit in the resulting opening.

I ended up using a sanding drum in my cordless drill to open the rabbet up a bit wider so the speakers would fit. I follow that with some hand sanding to make things look a bit more even... IT took a bit more time than I expected.

http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/Pc220648.jpg

At this point, everything is ready for the veneer. The crossovers are mounted and wired, the front edges rounded over, and everything sanded smooth.

I hope it is worth it. It put me a few hours behind my self imposed schedule... (I wanted to get these done before Christmas)

J. L.
I will hear the difference flush mounting makes... I know I will...

Well, the rabbets are finally cut. My 1/2" rabbeting bit when used with the driver hole sizes in the directions didn't cut enough out for the driver flanges. I tried to use my Dremel Tool with a sanding disc but that didn't have enough oomph. So, I traced the outline of the flange and used a new 1/4" straight cut bit and did it free-hand. Fortunately, I have a variable speed router so I could control it better. I have a few spots that were off a little but after the drivers are permanently mounted, I can add a little caulk and it won't be noticeable.

From what I can see, the flange on the woofers measures just a bit under 6 7/8ths inches in diameter.

If both Jeff and I accurately followed the PDF plans, then the hole we cut would have been 5 3/4 inches in diameter. Add 1 inch to that (1/2 in rabbet on two sides of the driver hole) and we get a rabbet about 6 3/4 inches diameter... and as we both found out, about 1/8th inch too small :(.

So... for those following in our footsteps...
Jeff confirmed (the hard way) that the published hole sizes for the Audax HT woofers may be about 1/8 inch too small if you intend to flush mount the woofers by use of a 1/2 inch rabbeting bit.

If you intend to use a 1/2 inch rabbeting bit in your router to cut the rabbet, and subsequently trim the veneer, then instead of cutting 5 3/4 inch diameter holes for the woofers, make them 5 7/8ths inch.

Joe L.

Exactly! I forgot to mention that it was 1/8" too small.
Jeff

JL,
Did you stuff the interior of the center channel with addtional polyfil or did you only use the egg-crate foam? I have both in the sub-enclosure but didn't see anything about the main cabinet.
Jeff

OK, I've been playing the center for approx 4-hrs now. I haven't attached the top or sealed it or put the polyfil in the mid/tweeter enclosure and it is sitting on the floor. I did place the lid on top and the first thing I noticed when compared to my small Energy center channel is the sound is much bigger. I don't know if it is any clearer, but definitely bigger. I discovered that I had the two woofers actually wired to the midrange crossover when one wasn't working. The midrange was also wrong and connected to the woofer crossover. I made the corrections and now everything is working properly (I hope). More to come...
Jeff

Jeff,

I used both the egg-crate foam and fiberfill in the sub-enclosure.

I only used the egg-crate foam in the outer woofer enclosure and left the one side I attached the crossovers to uncovered as per the plans.

I think sealing the sub-enclosure will make a big difference. So will getting it off the floor. Most of your treble is way below ear level. (unless you too are laying on the floor) Glad to see your speaker coming along.

I just came in from outside. I cut most of the pieces for the front stands. I'll probably glue the columns tonight and then attach the tops and bottoms tomorrow. Stay tuned for pictures.

Joe L.

Thanks JL,
That's the same way I assembled mine.
Jeff

Originally posted by J. L.
Jeff,

I used both the egg-crate foam and fiberfill in the sub-enclosure.

I only used the egg-crate foam in the outer woofer enclosure and left the one side I attached the crossovers to uncovered as per the plans.

I think sealing the sub-enclosure will make a big difference. So will getting it off the floor. Most of your treble is way below ear level. (unless you too are laying on the floor) Glad to see your speaker coming along.

I just came in from outside. I cut most of the pieces for the front stands. I'll probably glue the columns tonight and then attach the tops and bottoms tomorrow. Stay tuned for pictures.

Joe L.

Had the opportunity to cut some more MDF this past weekend. While I was primarily interesting in cutting the pieces I need for the Audax HT Rear speakers, I took advantage of the nice weather to make a few additional cuts for the pieces needed for speaker stands to hold my front right and left channel speakers.

I wanted stands that will compliment the speakers. I found several web-pages showing what others had done for their DIY speakers and my wife and I decided on a design. (She rejected far more than she liked) The design is similar in some ways to the one I referred Jeff to in an earlier message.

First, the base is made of two 3/4 inch pieces of MDF glued together to make a 1 1/2 inch thickness.

As Norm Abram says, "you can never have enough clamps"
http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/P1130691a.jpg

The column is a simple tube made of MDF. Here I have already removed most of the clamps (to use them on the base... I guess I do not have enough clamps... yet)
http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/P1130692a.jpg

A bit of work with my belt sander and the edges look pretty decent. I also used the 1/2 inch roundover bit on my router to round over the front edges of the column and the top edges of the base. My wife thinks that I should veneer the columns to match the speakers... I'm considering it. Originally, I was going to simply use flat black lacquer. The veneer would really make the stands look like they belong to the speakers...
http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/P1130695a.jpg

The stands are about 27 inches tall. This positions the tweeter on the front speakers at 40 inches from the floor; almost exactly at ear level when we are seated. It is also only about 6 inches below the center line of my screen.
http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/P1130696a.jpg

Tonight I'll glue up the other stand. If I'm lucky, I'll get another chance to work outside later in the week to sand and round over its edges. In the meantime, I can start assembly of the rear speakers and think about how I want to finish the stands.

Joe L.

JL,
Those stands appear to be very similar to the one's that I saw here in GA. You've done an excellent job.

FYI, I finally got the center channel veneered last night. It was my first venture into veneering and I ruined a 4x2 section because I didn't pay attention to the way the grain ran and when I tried to bend it over the rounded edges, it cracked:-( I was in a hurry and trying to pay attention to my wife and kids all at the same time. Then, there was the problem of removing what was already applied to the cabinet. It was after 1am this morning when I finished. I'll go back to working on the front speakers now. Looks like I'll have to buy another sheet of veneer.
The results are here:
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/audax_center001.htm
Jeff

JL,
I have another question: My center and two fronts came with two pounds of fiberfill. The instructions for the center say lightly compressed fill in the sub-enclosure but nothing about the fronts. How much did you add to each cabinet?
Thanks,
Jeff

Jeff,

I put a handful of fiberfill at the top and bottom of the front speakers (lightly compressed) because I was concerned thet the longer internal dimension might enforce more standing waves within the cabinet. (remember, I made the enclosures about 4 inches longer and 2 inches less deep) It seemed to help.

The Audax plans do not specify any fiberfill in the front speakers at all. If anything, you could try both with and without and see which you prefer. I guess it depends on the efficiency of the acoustic foam in absorbing the backwave from the speakers.

It might warrant a call to madisound... they might have some advice.

Joe L.

O.K., I am trying to remember what the Vance Dickason book said about ported boxes, but I if I remember correctly, it said that minimal fill should be used in ported boxes. Acoustic foam is fine, as long as it doesn't impede the air flow, but fiberfill is normally not reccomended.

Anyone else read Vance's book? Does this sound right?

Thanks guys,
I sent an email to Madisound. Since these are ported, it makes sense that excessive fill could/would impede air flow. I just thought it strange that the center and two fronts included 1-lb of fiberfill each (1-lb for the center and 1-lb for the fronts). The center makes sense because it calls for lightly compressed fill in the sub-enclosure that houses the midrange and tweeter. It probably only comes in 1-lb bags but why did the fronts come with foam padding and fiberfill? There is absolutely no mention of using the fiberfill anywhere. Maybe someone from Madisound will get back to me.
Jeff

Jeff,

I'll bet you I didn't even use 1/2 of a bag so far for all three speakers. (center, left & right)

I doubt you could stuff 1 lb of fiberfill in the sub-enclosure on the center and consider it "lighty compressed" It was probably less than 1/4 lb.

I'll be interested in the response you get from madisound.

Joe L.

I think the reason that the center channel requires some polyfill is that the sub enclosure for the mid and tweet is sealed. It's only the woofer cabinet in the center that's ported.

At least that's my interpretation.

You guys are all making me jealous as you get to hear your wonderful creations right away. Where as I have to wait another 26 days until my house is done!

later,

Don

Guys,
I got a quick response from Madisound...another reason to buy from them. Here it is: "Thank you for your email. When using the 2" foam, no additional fill is necessary"

jeff

Fellow speaker builders, I just weighed my Audax center channel and it came in at 47 pounds! I think that JL's will weigh even more since he doubled the rear panel thickness. I'm looking at the "Sound & Vision" 2003
Buyer's Guide. There are 119 pages of speakers listed. I'm quickly flipping through the pages and I haven't found a center channel yet that weighs this much. This just goes to show that these diy speakers are better built...that is if weight has anything to do with quality.

FYI, my entire Energy Take 5+1 weighs 45 pounds. I did find a couple of center channel speakers that weighed in over 40 pounds and they start at $1,400.
Jeff

Jeff,

I checked with my 20 year old bathroom scale (not too sure of its accuracy), and the center channel weighed about 48 lbs. Left and right speakers weigh about 42 Lbs each.

Have you gotten a chance to do any more listening to your new center channel now that it is fully glued and veneered? I'm curious of your thoughts. I did not have a good center channel before I built the Audax Center, that made the improvement in sound quality far more dramatic. It should be easier for you to comment on how it compares to a commercial center channel.

I am really happy with how my speakers are sounding. My wife even more so. Where in the past, she occasionally would ask that I enable the subtitles in order to better follow the dialog, she made comment that the new DIY Audax HT speakers make it so much easier to hear dialog in the presence of other background sounds in the movies that she has not had any need to ask me to enable the subtitles.

It has been said that our DIY speakers would easily compare to those selling for 3 or 4 times our DIY expense. Clearly, at least comparing speakers by weight, that seems to be true.

Joe L.

I'll have to spend tomorrow reading this whole post and getting caught up. Its quite a bit of reading! :) The current center channel I have is an Infinity (something) that I bought several years ago and is WEAK compared to what I'm needing. Since I got a projector and about a 8' screen, the picture isn't matching the sound coming from the center channel if you know what I mean. I need a much more "grand" of a center channel to match the picture a little better. I've definitely noticed a lack of sound from my center channel. So....


I have a desire to build the Audax center channel with some slight modifications depending on some answers I get from you guys.

#1 Modification would be the construction of the enclosure. All internal dimensions, speaker configurations, and porting would remain the same. I saw a sub woofer design sometime ago (can't remember where) that was constructed by use of 3/4" mdf inside + 3/4" sand + 3/4" mdf outside. Let me explain this further. Every side (except the front where speakers mount) was composed of sandwiching 3/4" of regular playground sand between two pieces of 3/4" mdf which would result in each side being 2 1/4" thick. This was done by edging every edge of each mdf side with 3/4" strips and then filling the void with sand and putting the other piece of mdf on top of this securing it with glue and screws. This was done for resonance purposes. I'm not a speaker builder, but the design principle made sense and heck it just sounded like a pretty cool thing to do. Heh! Yes, I know this adds much to the construction process, but I believe it would be worth it and obviously would add to the "weight factor" mentioned above. (yes i know weight isn't everything)

#2 Modification would be replacing the Audax speakers with some higher end speakers of the same cone sizes. This of course would mean changing the crossover design appropriatly. I have NO experience in this at all. Speaker choice nor crossover design. This is the main part where I'm looking for guidance. :) Is anyone up to the challenge of helping me choose some different speakers and doing a crossover design to reflect this. I don't think the enclosure should have to change any if we're using the same speaker cone sizes, but I could be wrong here. This modification would also mean that its not a true "Audax center channel" anymore. :P

Now for some basic stuff that I just don't know and questions I have...

How exactly are power ratings for speakers compiked? I've noticed that this Audax center channel uses several speakers with varring nominal power ratings. If I have a receiver that is 100W per channel, I would obviously desire a speaker with a max of 100W+ worth of power handling. What is the max of this Audax Center channel? Do you just take the nominal power of each speaker in the system and add them together or what?

Please let me know if anyone wants to help with my design challenges or if you can guide me to a place that can help, that would be great too. I think the addition of the sand to the construction of this center channel would be interesting to see and hear.

Thanks!
Ryan

can the sand, you don't need the over kill with a center, the 2 pcs of3/4 mdf will work fine.add tile inside if anything.
always remember kiss -keep it simple stupid- there are lots of great ideas but you cant always use them for your thing.
go lurk around the madisoud board there are a lot of guys who can help .
you cant just change drivers by size.
great drivers and bad crossover = crap speaker.
have your crossover done by a pro like rick craig at www.selahaudio.com
or another pro.
he did my 3.5 way- from what you mention ask him about using the fast-est design for your center or at least the top end-scan speak tweeter and morel dome mid, they work great together.

I don't think it would be that difficult to fill a void on 4-5 sides of the enclosure with some sand. :) It would be an interesting project for sure and the story to tell would be even more interesting. I'd also be confident that it would definitely help tame any resonance. Maybe using a mortar mix or concrete mix to fill the void could even be better.

My main thing is that I'm seeing that this design has been proven to out preform many "run of the mill" products until you step up into a $1000+ center channel. THIS is what I'm looking for. I know that I've outgrown my current center channel and I am a diy enthusiast for sure! I don't have this $1000 to spend on a center channel. All I might be able to muster would be half of that and I believe This Audax design would beat anything that I could get for $500.

You say "great drivers and bad crossover = crap speaker." Well I don't know if I even know what great drivers are. With that said...

Can anyone answer a few of the basic questions that I had above? Especially the questions that I have concerning power ratings. Thanks!

Ryan, quick note on using different drivers. If you look for the parameters of the drivers, often noted as T/S but technically called the Theil/Small parameters, these numbers tell everything about the driver and what type of enclosure to use them in as well as sizes. The T/S parameters are based on the electrical/mechanical properties of the drivers and allow the designer to come up with a best guess on how to use the driver (sealed box, ported, bandpass....). That along with the frequency repsonse curve and the waterfall plot tells the whole story about the driver. Beyond that, it takes listening tests to see what you think of the driver.
If you are interested in trying this out, you should probably get Vance Dickason's book, The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook. It goes into all the aspects of designing and building speakers.

Svonhof, thanks for the tip and info. I do already have a Loudspeaker Design book, but not the one that you mention (this one is old).

What is the exact RMS powerhandling of the Audax Center Channel? The speakers are all listed as different W raning around the 50W-60W Range. How is this calculated and what is this Audax Center Channel exactly? I'm concerned because my receiver is a Pioneer Elite VSX45TX and is 100W per channel. If the standard Audax setup will work fine with this receiver, then I may not need to change anything.

Ryan,

The following quote is from this page http://www.audax.com/doit/us_ht02.shtml on the Audax web-site that describes the Audax Home Theater speakers.

Realistic reproduction of movie sound tracks can require short term SPLs of 105-110dB. All of the individual speakers in the Audax home theater system can produce 105dB within their frequency range in typical size rooms. Their combined output capability easily exceeds 110dB. Sensitivity for the speakers in this system falls in the range of 87-88dB SPL/1w/1m. This translates to minimum amplifier power requirements of 100 per channel.
I am currently using an amplifier that is 15 watts per channel with the Audax center channel and it is plenty loud enough for movies. No, it will not get so loud that it is uncomfortable to listen to, but way more than enough to immerse myself in the soundtrack.... plenty loud enough to have made me jump when presented with an unexpected loud noise. You do not need 100 watts, but the Audax Center Channel can easily handle it.

You cannot simply add the power handling ratings of the different drivers in the enclosure, because the energy in a movie soundtrack is not evenly distributed between the drivers. Usually, there is far less energy at treble frequencies than at others, therefore, it is OK if the tweeter has less power handling capability.

With all that in mind, your 100 watt per channel receiver would do perfectly.

Joe L.

I'm going to be building the Audax surrounds sometime in the next couple of months. I plan on maybe going to a 6.1 system. Does anyone know if it might be possible to convert the surrounds to a bipole design? Or even a pseudo design? My understanding is that you simply need to wire the speakers out of phase. Of course I'm sure that there is more to it than that. My Theater room is rather small at 10 x 13 x 9. Should I just build the surrounds as they are and have direct radiating speakers in the back and sides? I know Scott (Svonhof) uses that arrangment. I have heard his system and it sound quite impressive.

To be honest I'm not even sure if it would be worth it to go the 6.1 route with the size of my room. But any receiver I get in the next few months will more than likely have that capability anyway.

Ryan,

I think I have the answer to your question. Each speaker is rated at a certain wattage, but the inductors I believe, but may be wrong, split the power sent from the amp up into chunks that each speaker can handle. I have a recevier that puts out 100 watts per channel and my Audax mains handle it fine. The center channel has the same drivers. I know there are different impedence ratings on speakers and that can cause the speaker to draw more power, but that is beyond my knowledge.

As far as the sound goes, I have been to several different retailers that sell many types of speakers and the Audax mains that I built sound as good, if not better, then what I have heard. With the exception of the Martin Logans that I heard at Magnolia Hi-Fi. Of course those didn't sound $6 grand better than my Audax's.

By replicating the Audax design, what price range of speaker do you think they compare to? Before I found this design and searched AVSForums for the design and got lead to this thread, I had been looking at Polk http://www.polkaudio.com/home/products.php?category=5

Can anyone compare this Audax to any of these? Again I ask, with all the effort of building these and after they are completed, what price tag would this center compare to?

I haven't compared them to the speakers you linked to unfortunately. I did however listen to the Klipsch reference speakers quite a bit at the local Good Guys before and after I built the Audax speakers. They sound just as good to my ears. This is saying a lot as I really like the sound of Klipsch speakers and almost bought them before stumbling across some DIY speaker sites. Of course you have to remember that speakers are very dependent upon the room and I haven't done any A/B comparisons aside from comparing it to my Sony center(see below).

I also listenened to some Definitive Technology speakers and the previously mentioned Martin Logans. I didn't listen as intentally as the Klipsch speakers, but the Audax came close to my ears. the Martin's did sound better, but I'm not sure if it was actually sounding better or just a placebo effect as I know they are about a fourth of my annual salary!

You will certainly be able to purchase speakers that sound better than the Audax, but not for any where near the price.

As for the center channel specifically I haven't had a chance to listen to it with my mains as they are in storage right now. However, before I moved I had a rather inexpensive Sony center flanked by the Audax mains. When I switched between Stereo and 5.1, the Audax Mains really brought out the weakness of the Sony. I mean the clarity and warmth these speakers put out is amazing. I really can't wait get into my new house so I can experience how well the center channel integrates into the system.

Don, the debate over 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 is on-going. My take on it is that if you have a small room, as you will, you will be fine with 5.1. Will you notice a difference between 5.1 and 6.1, possibly.

As far as making the regular surrounds into a bi-pole, you would need different crossovers to handle dual tweeters and then you could leave the midrange on the front panel with the tweeters on the sides. This of course means that you will have side surrounds and the rear center, which means you want to have the side speakers at ear distance from the front wall. If you are sitting against the back wall, that is no good, as the tweeter will fire directly into it.
That is my take on it.

I think my solution is to just build the surrounds as they are and then put my current surrounds as the rear speakers when I upgrade my receiver. If there is a noticeable difference then great. If there isn't, then oh well. Nothing really lost.

I need the new receiver anyway to handle componenent switching. The 6.1 is just extra.

Now I need to just get a height channel decoder. Just kidding!

darthopus,
That is what I'm doing. I have a set of Energy speakers and I'm using them as surrounds and rear speakers. I actually have five Energy Take 5 speakers, an Energy center and an Energy 8" 100w sub. I may try to buy one more Take 5 and have four surrounds and two rear channels. I could also use four of the Take 5s as surrounds and use the old center channel as a rear speaker. My two Audax front channel speakers will be finished by Saturday and my center was done last week. At this time, I don't have any plans to replace the Energy speakers in the rear because they are perfect for that job. I just need to find a use for the old subwoofer because I also recently completed a 250 watt 15" sonosub.
jeff

Originally posted by darthopus
I think my solution is to just build the surrounds as they are and then put my current surrounds as the rear speakers when I upgrade my receiver. If there is a noticeable difference then great. If there isn't, then oh well. Nothing really lost.

I need the new receiver anyway to handle componenent switching. The 6.1 is just extra.

Now I need to just get a height channel decoder. Just kidding!

Hi guys,
I've got another question: The 3" port tubes are supposed to be 5.25" long. the rear panel is .75" thick and the baffle is 1" thick. Does that count as 1.75" of the overall port length? The distance from the front of the baffle to the outside of the rear panel is also 5.25". Both ends of the port are supposed to be rounded. Does that mean that I should use my good carbided tipped router bit on the PVC tube, or can I cut the PVC tube 1" shorter and just round the front of the baffle and the rear panel?
Jeff

Jeff,

I asked exactly the same question on the Parts Express message board when I was building my center channel. It was even more appropriate since I had a thicker rear panel.

The answer was that it is the total length that matters.

The port tube, in my case, would extend less into the enclosure since more of it was within the 1 1/2 inch thick rear panel than in the original plans with a 3/4 inch rear panel. In your case, the rear panel and baffle count as 1.75" of the overall port length.

I did the center different than the L/R speakers. For the center channel, I had a very thick walled cardboard tube that I used for the port. (it came free inside the bolt of fabric I used for my theater)

I cut it flush with the outer wall of the enclosure and used my roundover bit to make the transition. Here is a picture:
http://home.triad.rr.com/leggio/images/ht/projects/160727a.jpg
If you look real close you can see that I left about a 1/16th inch rabbet on the outermost edge of the port flair. That allowed me to trim the veneer cleanly around the port. If the roundover was flush with the rear panel, I don't think it wiuld have been as easy to make the veneer look as good around the port.

I used PVC tube on the L/R. There, they do not go all the way through the panels, they only go about 1/4 inch into the panel. The roundover is therefore only on the MDF.

I would think you could use the router to round over the PVC as I did with the cardboard tube. Just keep the bit moving as to not melt the PVC.. (that could make a mess)

Joe L.

Thanks Joe,
So at least my current tube is correct. I assumed that it was total length and made it that way. I've got to do something about the PVC edge. I currently have rounded ports but then there is the end of the PVC which makes it look like a rabbeted step. If I could only find some really thin plastic tubing that is 3" ID. I'm ready to play these things and I've still got approx 8' of 3" PVC, so I'll get the router out and try to round the edges.
Thanks again,
Jeff

Has anyone thought of adding the technology to the ports like Polk does with a "cone type thingy" (http://www.circuitcity.com/modeldisplay.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1743300209.1042816936@@@@&BV_EngineID=cccjadchfldiemdcfngcfkmdffhdffh.0&ModelID=/IMAGE/nueweb/plk/NW.PLK.CSI40BLACK.SWF&OID=50695) pointing into the port?

Does anyone manufacture devices like this? I've never seen them on parts express. The piece is made of hard plastic and from what I understand, its supposed to smoothe out frequency response and disperse the lows. If no one manufactures this, I guess it would take someone that knows a bit about molding plastics to accomplish such a thing.

Also, another thing concerning port tubes, has anyone thought to use an adjustable port tube? (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?DID=7&Product_ID=5737) I'll bet this could be taken and modified to adjust from 3" to 7" or so and give some user configuration to this center channel.

Ryan, I think you are obsessed with Polks!
I am not sure what that thing does, except possibly slow down some of the air and also re-direct it so that you can have the speaker close to/or against a wall.

hehe. Not obsessed, I just almost bought one before I saw this Audax DIY Center Channel and I was looking to maybe add this "technology" to this center channel. I suggest you read here at polk's website to decide for yourself. (http://www.polkaudio.com/home/technology/pwrport.php?category=3&speaker=2) Or maybe a google search? (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=polk+audio+power+port+technology)

Its a simple design, but if the technology is true, I don't see why you wouldn't want this on any ported speaker.

After all DIY is taking a little knowledge from here and there and putting it all together to #1 have an entertaining time making it and #2 trying to accomplish and surpass designs others have made (manufactured or individually).

Jeff,

Actually, I did not use PVC pipe in the Front L/R speakers, instead, I saw 3 inch diameter plastic port tubes on sale for 69 cents at MCM Electronics (in a flyer they sent to me in the mail) Since I was placing an order anyway with them for some transistors and other parts, I included two in the order. I did this before I had even started on the Front speakers.

It turned out they did not have a flared end, so I simply flared my MDF, cut the length of tube I needed from them with my hacksaw, and used them between the rear panel and the inner support baffle.

They were thin walled as you desired.

You might check Parts-Express if you want to wait for a delivery. Shipping costs might be high if you are only ordering port tubes though.

If you are ready to finish up your front speakers, then the router is probably your best bet. It sounds like you have some PVC to experiment on.

Joe L.

Sorry if this is not quite the right thread for this, but it sounds like a lot of the participants have had some experience with the audax HT DIY system.

I'm thinking of going that route as well, but would it be a sin to use the L&R front speakers lying down rather than upright? My proscenium design definitely lends itself to that orientation. Would I be better off using a pair of the center speakers as left and right? That sounds a little scary.

Eric.

It would be a bad idea to lay the front speakers down.
Most center speakers don't sound very good anyway. A lot of this is due to the horizontal orientation.
You should have the speakers near ear height.
They should be vertically aligned, if at all possible.
If you lay them down the will probably not sound very good.
Using 3 centers would be better than laying down a LR speaker. Notice that the tweeter and mid are vertically aligned at least.

James

Sorry to bring up his book again, but Vance Dickason has some charts on off-axis response from positioning various style speaker cabinets in horizontal and vertical positions and the one with the least amount of distortion was one that was MTM and vertically mounted. It has to do with the typical dispersion pattern from the drivers.
In my book, it is in the "Home Theater Loudspeakers" chapter, page 150, Fifth edition.

This leads me to beleive that since the center channel speaker is designed to sit horizontal, it should be used for the front three speakers if they all have to be horizontaly mounted. Make sure you can get the speakers up as high as possible though, so the sound doesn't all come from below the screen.

Originally posted by J. L.
I've seen frequency response plots of MTM (midwoofer-tweeter-midwoofer) designed speakers when horizontally orientated and off-axis In one case(I'll try to find the link), the critical midrange was over 10 db down, in another, they talked about it being 18 db down at 2000Hz when 30 degrees off axis. (right in the middle of the frequency range for speech) In this example (http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/dkhts/dkhts2.html), the builder measured the off-axis response of the MTM style center speaker he had built and supplied a response curve graph (http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/dkhts/centerx.jpg). Ouch... most of the midrange is over 10 to 15 db down off axis. His own comment was "Yuck! Look at how bad the off-axis response of a horizontal MTM is! This is why no one in their right mind would use this design for a center
channel."

Talk about making it hard to follow the dialog in a movie if you are not seated directly on axis. One of the major reasons I choose the design I did as I only have one seat in my theater that is "on-axis". The audax web-site stated that the frequency response for their design was flat within a few db even when off axis.

An earlier message in this thread included the above text. In the unlikely event that you do not care about the quality of the critical midrange when listened to off axis, then lay the speakers down. (When it comes to the L/R front speakers, you are ALWAYS off axis to at least one of them, and usually to both)

My advice, do not use an MTM design. Three Audax center channel speakers would be just fine as the midrange/tweeter are vertically aligned even when the enclosure is sitting horizontally below the screen.

Sorry to find that the links above no longer work.. ... Now they do. I fixed them!

Joe L.

Today, I finished my two Audax front channel speakers. I connected them along with my center to have a listen. I wanted something that had a lot of dialog and lots of action at the same time. I chose Saving Private Ryan. The rusults are VERY good! I think I had good speakers with which to compare them in the Energy Take 5s. First, the dialog is very nice and clear in the center. I could really hear and understand other people in the background much better. The two fronts, I noticed even more. The misc sounds of battle all around were much clearer as were the other voice sounds. The nice thing is there is no cheap boominess or hollow sound. When someone speaks, you hear it. When they stop, the speaker stops. I also put in a CD, The Marriage of Figaro, by Mozart. This is where the Energy speakers fall short. For $900, the Energy speakers are a really good buy on a small, inexpensive speaker but they are for HT and not music. These, although specifically designed for HT were more musical and sounded better...even in Italian, which I don't understand. I've been frantically picking up and cleaning the HT room so we can give them a real test tonight.
Jeff

Jeff,

I am really happy that you are pleased with your DIY Audax Home Theater speakers. I would have felt really bad if they did not perform as well as your Energy 5.1 speakers. You must be very proud of your new DIY speakers. Just wait till they break in a bit. They get even better!

I feel like it was my descriptions of my experiences making sawdust out of MDF and my project pictures that convinced you to try the Audax project over some of the others you were considering several months ago. In return, I will be building a sonosub... following in your footsteps.

I can't wait till you get some pictures of your new Front speakers posted on your web-site.

Joe L.

JL, you are THE one who convinced me to try the Audax. I was going to build the Adire 281s which are also great speakers. They were a little larger than I wanted and also a little more expensive. I'm very happy with these. However, I'm not happy with my center channel woofer rabbets that I cut. As I'm sure you know I/you had to enlarge the mounts for the flanges the hard way. I did mine free hand with a router and since I know it's flawed, I see it everytime I look at the speaker. In spring, I think I'm going to build a new center channel cabinet. the other thing I did twice today was punch the tweeter with a screwdriver. It has a small dent in the dome but sounds the same as before. I'm going to replace it just for piece of mind. I still have to veneer and stain them and build the stands. Here are some pictures of the fronts:
http://lotuseuropa0.tripod.com/audax_front_speakers001.htm
Jeff

Jeff,

I love the "custom stands."
(eventually, your wife will want them back, I imagine)

You might be able to use your router to "salvage" your cabinet and not have to re-build the entire thing come springtime.

You might be able to add another layer of 1/2 inch MDF to the front, re-cut holes in it, make it 1/4 inch bigger in width and almost as high so you can use your router to then trim it even. Hardest part will be making the transition to the rounded edge. I'll bet you can simply make it look like a much larger radius on the edge.

Or... you could cut a new "inlay" out of 1/4 inch MDF, cut the same 1/4 inch from the front of your current cabinet, glue it in place, sand it smooth with your existing front, cut the new driver holes, and then re-veneer. If nothing else, it might be simpler than re-building the entire cabinet.

On the other hand, if you enjoy the smell of sawdust... go for it.. I know I am getting better at this speaker building stuff as I go.... I'm sure you are too.

Enjoy the sound, turn down the lights so you don't focus on the rabbets, and enjoy a movie or two...

Joe L.