The long awaited 2000 foot tower is now up and open for business. The first station to officially or unofficially go on line is UPN channel 57 (DT 32-1). All content was up-converted and looked pretty bad but they were the first new station on, none the less. We should not see any improvement to the station's content until the national feed sends Enterprise in HD next season.

Next up should be The WB network, channel 17 (DT 54-1). I placed a call to them last night to let them know that UPN beat them to the punch. They said they should be on by the weekend. That will be just in time to catch Tuesday's repeat of Smallville this Sunday (don't forget to set your clocks back an hour Saturday night.).

As for the other channels, who cares. Just kidding

I will update you on PAX Channel 61 (DT 31-1), Telemundo (I hope I spelled it correctly), PBS (WYBE-DT 34-1), and an Independent Station (WGTW-DT 27-1 ) as soon as I get the scoop.


May HD be with you always

DarthJedi

Will FOX and NBC be on this new tower ?

Originally posted by Ralph Degenero
Will FOX and NBC be on this new tower ?


I am not sure about FOX but NBC will be moving to the new tower. Their transmitter is already there but they have not given a time for the roll over.


May HD be with you always

DarthJedi.

Thank you for the info Darth. Would you know the transmitter power for UPN and WB?

-Ben

Hopefully Darthjedi has more info on the transmitting power, but I can tell you that the UPN signal was fairly strong in Wilmington. On my HiPix I got a signal strength of 76 last night.

Originally posted by chingko
Thank you for the info Darth. Would you know the transmitter power for UPN and WB?

-Ben

I don't know but I will find out for you. I can also tell you that I have the SONY HD200 and UPN is now the strongest signal I get. Before UPN it was CBS and ABC that were the strongest.

That is surprising given that 57 is at such low power. Must be the height. It is my understanding that they have shut down the antenna right now. Let us know if you are getting it now. I no longer am!

I am not getting it either.

According to the FCC construction permit UPN WPSG-DT will be allowed up to 250kW erp from a height of 1312'. WB WPHL-DT: 500kW @1161'
PAX WPPX-DT: 800kW @1227'
IND WGTW-DT: 225kW @1099'

They had people climbing the tower....That is why they went down

Yeah, I printed out this thread, and was all excited to see the new channel when I got home.

Alas, it was not on.

Soon.....

I'm glad it isn't just me not getting the signal. I got ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX and PBS. If the signal there I assume that I don't have to rotate the antena. last night I rotate the antenna like crazy, but still can't get UPN. I'll try again this weekend for WB. I forgot who posted, but he mentioned that WB will unofficially on air this weekend. We'll see.

Off topic - If UPN broadcast 76ers in HD, that would be great. Anyone know about this status? I heard that Comcast will install HD cameras in First Union Center. I hope that's not a rumor. I did not have comcast cable, so if UPN send the HD signal for the First Union Center, that would be awesome :)

WPSG-DT is currently running about 8kw. Signal will go on and off, due to a variety of projects related to tower and transmitter... They will be ready for 24/7 on 11/1

8kw? d to pick that up. When I scanned early yesterday morning, I was able to pick it up. Was that only 8kw? If so, that added height really helps. Hope they will be on at their maximum rated power of 250kw on 11/1. BTW. Comcast HD is strictly a cable product. I seriously doubt that it will be on OTA for a few years, at least with the use of Comcast euipment.

Originally posted by Ralph Degenero
Will FOX and NBC be on this new tower ?

Yes, from what I understand, FOX will also be on this tower. :D :D

Fox will not be on this tower. They will be on another tower but much higher up and they will be at 1 megawatt. They should be up and running by the spring.

Originally posted by JWhip
Fox will not be on this tower. They will be on another tower but much higher up and they will be at 1 megawatt. They should be up and running by the spring.

OK, Now I'm REALLY confused! :confused: There are TWO towers going up in the Philly area? Can you claify what you mean by another tower? The info I got, and of course it could be totally wrong, said that WTXF (FOX)will be going on the same tower as WCAU (NBC) and WPSG (UPN), as well as WPHL (WB). JWhip - I hope you wrong, cause I can't get WTXF very well where I live. :eek:

Fox will be moving their position to another tower where channel 35 (analog) is presently. They will be at nearly 1000 feet whereas they are at about 500 feet at another location in Andorra. Once they install their new antenna in the fall and go to their new power level (once the FCC approves it, you will have no trouble getting them.

why can't we get any information on the status of WCAU? I can receive and maintain signals from every station except WCAU

This is all good news! I picked up UPN by accident last week--what a nice surprise.

The only station I can't get hipix to pick up now is PBS--weird.

i seem to have lost the upn signal (32.1) here in the philadelphia area. has it gone off the air?

Yes. They tirned it off so that channel 17 could complete work on their antenna.

I went looking for these stations all weekend, and didn't find either. However, I'm in the fringe and only using an indoor antenna at the moment. I'm probably going to try an attic antenna soon.

I was told that a fm antenna was being placed on the tower today so no 32-1 was on. If it rains tomorrow, there will be no work on the tower. They will turn it on tomorrow if that is the case.

Don't forget to check channel 54 tonight. WB said they will turn their signal on at 9pm tonight.

Cool! Just in time for Smallville.

8.8kw into antenna effective output from antenna 107kw - but all that matters not, since they are running to dummy load until the other folks clear off tower.

They might be back up in time for Enterprise - just get those people off the tower !!!

Let us know if WB 17 is up and running and whether they will be staying on or just still testing!

no WB yet

Everyone Please join me in calling the WB and let them know that you are not getting a signal. They are saying it is on and I am not getting it I live one mile form the tower with a clean shot. The number is 215 878-1700 press 3 for news, ask them to transfer you to engineering

NO WB17 for me either and still no UPN 57.

How much stonger will the signals be? I've had problems with Philly signals in the past. Large hill in my line of sight. Anyhow, I was able to get CBS and ABC, sometimes PBS with multipath.
So I turned to Baltimore. If I can get back to Philly, I'd do it.

Does anyone know whether PHL has to be on by 11/1 ???

Both WB17 and UPN 57 are to be on by 11/1 according to the extension granted them by the FCC.

I've checked AntennaWeb and TitanTV and it looks like all of the Philly stations should be in approximately the same location (166 and 167 degrees). I'm up in Harleysville with decent line-of-sight to the towers. I can get CBS and ABC at 100% and Fox at 67%. With the antenna in its current position, I can't get NBC over 15-20% and PBS is just a blip. I do get NBC at close to 100% when I move the antenna. I've had no luck with UPN or WB, but have only tried last evening when most of you are saying they weren't broadcasting. Are NBC and PBS moving to the new antenna and if so when? I'd really hate to use a rotator to get them and have been holding off until the new antenna is live.

Thanks!

Rob

NBC yes. PBS no.

Ch. 57 (32-1) is coming in right now. Picture looks great! No 17 (54-1).

Let's hope it stays on long enough for Enterprise tonight!

Originally posted by pabuwal
Ch. 57 (32-1) is coming in right now. Picture looks great! No 17 (54-1).

This may have been covered already, but what power is UPN transmitting at? :confused:

Not sure, but I live just live a few towns over from you and the signal comes in great!

Huh? I just tried 32-1 and get squat! 57 analog comes in crystal clear.
I'm only 20 miles from the x-mitters! Is it off again?

Hi,

Spoke to an enginner at 17 today. He told me that they are testing right now and through most of November. Their broadcast target date is Nov. 30.

NBC-10 also has a target date of Nov. 30 for their new site - from an enginner I spoke to yesterday.

Also spoke to a rep at 57 (not an enginner) and she said that UPN-57 will be up full time on Nov. 1 on channel 32.

Joe

It's 5:00pm, and I just tried to lock in on 32-1 and get nothing. Not even a faint signal.

Is 32-1 still broadcasting? And if so, is anyone in the Lehigh Valley area picking it up?? I can pick up ABC and CBS with little problem (ABC is better than CBS lately). I should be picking up UPN!!

Not getting it either. Maybe it is the rain. When posting when you are getting it, please post the time also

Originally posted by jcardani
Hi,

Spoke to an enginner at 17 today. He told me that they are testing right now and through most of November. Their broadcast target date is Nov. 30.


Joe

wasnt the date supposed to be nov 1st?

I spoke to an engineer at 17 today. He told me that they turned the switch on last night for Smallville and one of the components failed. They were getting a new one from Harrisburg today and should be on the air on Thursday.

I've been checking every night for the last few days & gotten nothing. Hope both UPN & WB go live soon.

Strangely, KYW-DT, which used to come in at 93-100, is lately upper 70's-lower 80's.

KWY-DT also dropped in signal strength for me not sure what the issue is but to many others have mentioned the same issue.

Thank goodness I can get CBS-HD through Dish Network!! I haven't looked at KYW OTA in months, and when I tried it last week, I couldn't get a good lock. Wonder why they would have cut their signal strength, aside from just plain greed.

I'm having trouble with KYW recently as well. Used to be one of my best stations for HD. Now it comes and goes.

Could the new tower overpower KYW's transmission? That's the only thing I know that changed in the antenna farm recently. Maybe the new tower going online effects KYW's signal somehow?

Eric

wb in Philly is on the air as of 5P local time. Their signal seems to have an unusual ratio: almost filling the sides, but not quite. Picture doesn't looked stretched. anyway, it's great to have another choice ;)

UPN 57 (32-DT) is on the Air

WB and UPN coming in strong in King of Prussia. Hope it stays up and not just a test. Of course on CSI night my CBS has to have occasional dropouts :(

Hopefully I'll now get at least a couple Flyer's games with a good, crisp picture. My analog Sportsnet cable signal is atrocious.

Loax

Yep, getting 17 (very strong -- 9 bars on samsung t151) and 57 moderately strong (5 bars). I'm 4 miles from the antenna farm. Using an indoor antenna.

But what has been going on with KYW (CBS)? I can't get it all tonight (not even with drop-outs). It used to be one of my strongest stations. Since last Saturday I've barely been able to get it at all.

So much for CSI tonight (I won't watch it analog). I only started watching it because it was HDTV.

Any other Philly area people having trouble with KYW? If so, who can we contact there?

Is it possible the new stations/tower going on line somehow negatively effects KYW's transmission signal?

Eric

Getting in 32.1 (UPN) in Broomall. What channel is WB?

Originally posted by LarryGMarrow
Getting in 32.1 (UPN) in Broomall. What channel is WB?


54.1 The new stations are 32.1 and 54.1 (57 and 17 -- wphl).

Did anyone bothered with the WB logo? It's not as transparent as the analog channel. I hope it doesn't cause the burn in. I got UPN and WB as of today. I tried two days ago and got nothing and try it again today.. viola!!! Can't wait to see the Smallville!!!

Both CBS-NY and CBS-Phil used to have extremely strong signals. Several months ago, they both reduced power to a point where they were tough to watch (at the same time).

Some of the NYC HDTV board members complained to CBS-NY and they fixed the problem, boosting the signal right back up.

I dont know if anyone ever spoke to KYW, but the signal has been low ever since.

Here in Central NJ, I get Ch. 57 (32-1) and not Ch. 17 (54-1). Why would that be??

Family Affair looks prety good in HD. The WPHL logo really is annnoying though. The network Bug looks fine but the WPLH logo has to go.

Originally posted by Dan Bither
Family Affair looks prety good in HD. The WPHL logo really is annnoying though. The network Bug looks fine but the WPLH logo has to go. WB-17

Yep I noticed it too.............

Originally posted by jandron
wb in Philly is on the air as of 5P local time. Their signal seems to have an unusual ratio: almost filling the sides, but not quite. Picture doesn't looked stretched. anyway, it's great to have another choice ;)

i see it the same way it is very large, cutting off the bottom. and top it seems.

Originally posted by pabuwal
Both CBS-NY and CBS-Phil used to have extremely strong signals. Several months ago, they both reduced power to a point where they were tough to watch (at the same time).

Some of the NYC HDTV board members complained to CBS-NY and they fixed the problem, boosting the signal right back up.

I dont know if anyone ever spoke to KYW, but the signal has been low ever since.

Here in Central NJ, I get Ch. 57 (32-1) and not Ch. 17 (54-1). Why would that be??

Who do we speak to -- I went to the KYW webpage, but the HDTV link takes you to the national CBS programming?

ok i'm 10 mile south of the airport and get all the old channels in 100%. with a standard antenna on the roof.
i also get both new channels 100%.but the logo on 17 is hugh and not very see through.

Here in downtown Broomall, PA I am getting a strong signal from UPN, but a very broken signal from WPHL. Are they broadcasting at full power? Both signals come from the same tower...shouldn't i receive them equally? I checked the signal out on three different receivers...no difference.

UPN and WB17 are on the same tower, right? So the only reason to get one and not the other has to be signal strength, right?

Up here in Bethlehem/Easton, I get WB17 perfectly, around 70%-80%, looks great! I cannot lock onto UPN57 (32-1) no matter where I point my rooftop antenna. It spikes and drops, like a multi-path signal would, and I cannot get a lock. This sucks because I virtually never watch WB. The only thing I watch on UPN is Enterprise and Twilight Zone on Wednesday nights, but Enterprise in digital as opposed to RCN-God-Awful-Analog is what I've been dreaming of for the last year and a half.

According to metronet, UPN57 is broadcasting at half the strength of WB17. That really sucks....

Cool! Two new digital stations. I got both in the upper 90's-100 last night. No PSIP data yet.

Both new signals were strong in Harleysville, PA (roughly 20 miles north of the towers). Also, no problems with KYW. They're all 100%.

I've never been too concerned about station bugs, bug WB-17 is huge and very hot. That can't be a good idea.

Rob

I picked up both signals at near a 100% signal strength.

I spoke to a WB engineer and he said they don't plan on keeping the WPHL bug in it's current form. he agreed that it was way too big. They already had a few calls today complaining about it.

Putting aside the WB-17 bug for a moment (I agree they've either got to shrink it or make it transparent or hopefully both) did anyone else think PHL-DT has a great picture, even in non-hd? For some reason the contrast looked better...some of the other station's non-hd broadcasts look a little washed out by comparison. Also, I liked thier approach to the aspect radio challange; a little off the top and bottom, partially filling out the sides. The non-hd shows looked almost as good as the hd on my set-up.

In Trenton on an indoor antenna, I got WB-17 on 54.1 but not UPN-57 on 32.1.

WB-17 looked wonderful, but the opaque non-changing bug has to go.

Originally posted by Brajesh

Strangely, KYW-DT, which used to come in at 93-100, is lately upper 70's-lower 80's.

After a couple of emails with the head engineer at KYW regarding possible causes of the recent problems with KYW-DT (which he was not aware of any), he just sent me this follow-up email:
-----------

Eric
We found a bad 1 watt feed forward amplifier that caused S/N to drop from 30db to around 25db. Would definitely affect some STB's. Take a look tonight and let me know if you see an improvement.
CUL Jim
James M. Chase
Director Broadcast Operations & Engineering
KYW-TV / WPSG-TV
101 South Independence Mall East
Philadelphia, PA. 19106
chase@kyw.com <mailto:chase@kyw.com
_____________

So I'm going to look when I get home to see if KYW is now better. You guys should take a look too. I didnt' know KYW and WPSG were together (but look at his signature). Must be same company that owns both.

Eric

Yes, CBS owns UPN now.

I wonder if this problem is affecting UPN as well?

Originally posted by Randy Boecker


I wonder if this problem is affecting UPN as well?

I don't think so. I didn't have any problems with UPN last night. Also, I believe that UPN is on the new candelabra tower, while KYW's transmitter remained where it was.

Eric

Yes, CBS owns UPN now.

I wonder if this problem is affecting UPN as well?

Sorry for the dupe. I got an error when I submitted the first reply, thought it didn't go so I sent it again.

I'm surprised you have had problems with KYW-26. I have been taking regular screen grabs of their 8 VSB waveform since August of 2000 and never saw more than a 6 dB variation on their signal, as received in central Bucks County.

Some of that change in level can be attributed to foliage, weather, etc.

They did have a problem last year with crosstalk from the microwave analog TV studio-transmitter link (STL) getting into the digital STL. And there was a problem with jitter and dropped data a few weeks back that was corrected quickly. But they are as strong as ever, typically 50 dB C/N or more.

WPSG doesn't run as much power. The FCC Table of Allocations has them at 108 kW ERP. They do have a potent signal from the new tower, as does WPHL (licensed to run 172 kW ERP).

WPHL is using the same 14:9 aspect ratio that WPIX-DT was using when it was OTA from the WTC. The four HD shows on WB come through as 1080i 16:9.

WTXF and WCAU are also scheduled to move to the new tower. As of this writing, I do not think that has happened. Their signal strength is the same as before.

BTW, WPSG and KYW are both owned by Viacom, which owns CBS. WPSG's static PSIP shows 32-1, while WPHL is using a true virtual channel ID (WPHL 17-1).

Pete KT2B

Hi all,

I am happy to report that I am getting great signal from both UPN on (57-1) and WB on (17-1) Both are coming thru at 74-76%. I am in Manalapan in Central NJ.

Bring on Enterprise and Smallville. This is just great.

Franzius.

Add me to the list of happy campers. Both new channels are coming in great with my attic antenna in Freehold, NJ.

Sure hope WB17 does something about that bug though. It is beyond obnoxious.

Hi all,

I just got off the phone with ED, an engineer with the WB. I spent a good half hour talking to him about some of our concerns, mainly the Logo. He was very receptive about the Logo issue and agreed that it is not a cool thing. He said he would work on getting it to an acceptable size and transparency. I aso invited him join the AVS forum so we can ask and get answers to our questions. He said he would join and welcomed the opportunity to address any questions we might have.

Can someone help me? I'm in Somerset NJ and receive 57-1 at a signal strength of 50.

But I can't receive 17-1/54-1 at all. Nothing.

How could that be?

I have the DTC-100.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Pete Putman

BTW, WPSG and KYW are both owned by Viacom, which owns CBS. WPSG's static PSIP shows 32-1, while WPHL is using a true virtual channel ID (WPHL 17-1).

Pete KT2B

Looks like WPSG went to a virtual channel ID tonight -- I'm now seeing 57-1 on my set top box.

Eric

Maybe the folks in NJ can help me by letting me know the signal strength they are getting for each Ch. 17 and Ch. 57 as well as their location.

Thanks.

I'm wondering how many Dish 6000 owners are picking up 32-1 (WPSG) and where they are located? The engineer at KYW/WPSG seems to think that some STB's will be better at picking up the signal than others.

Also, isn't there a web site somewhere that will let me punch in my address and the station id for a transmitter and give me an idea of where I fall in the footprint? I understand WPSG went with a mostly circular transmission pattern at 107kW erp. I SHOULD be able to receive it here in Bethlehem Township. I can pick up EVERY other Philly DT station (WCAU isn't great because of low power, but I can at least get a lock if I fiddle with the antenna long enough) except WPSG.

Originally posted by pabuwal
Maybe the folks in NJ can help me by letting me know the signal strength they are getting for each Ch. 17 and Ch. 57 as well as their location.

Thanks.

In Sicklerville, NJ, I'm getting both @ 100% on my Hughes E 86 with the Rat Shack Double Bowtie Antenna. :D

WPHL-DT 54 (Ch. 17) WB has fabulous picture quality.

Originally posted by pabuwal
Maybe the folks in NJ can help me by letting me know the signal strength they are getting for each Ch. 17 and Ch. 57 as well as their location.

Thanks.

I'm in Mullica Hill with RS 150-2160 up 20 feet with Samsung t151

all stations 3/4 scale translated 75 85 in signal strength (i guess)

74% on WPHL-DT up here in Northwest New Jersey. Only 30% on WPSG.

Originally posted by Randy Boecker
I'm wondering how many Dish 6000 owners are picking up 32-1 (WPSG) and where they are located? The engineer at KYW/WPSG seems to think that some STB's will be better at picking up the signal than others.


I am getting WPSG at 94-96% on my Dish 6000 in Freehold, NJ. Haven't seen a dropout yet on this channel. The other new addition, WPHL is coming in at 81%.

Even in this hole here I am able to pick up 57-1, although it took several scans on my Panny STB to locate the signal. Can't find 17-1 which I believe is at a higher power. Anyone know of a way to manually enter 17-1 into the memory of the box as I think I will be able to receive the channel if I could somehow enter it into the box's memory.

Thanks everyone.

I'm completely shocked on why I can not receive 54-1/17-1.

I get 32-1/57-1 with a signal strength between 46-60. No sign of 54-1 what so ever.

I have a DTC-100 (F38310). Can anyone else with the DTC-100 pick this signal up?? Can it be the tuner and not the signal? If so, why this channel and no others?

Ch.6 and 3 come in great also.

Yet no 54-1/17-1.

I have a dtc 100 tuner (standalone) and after reading this message thread, I went and looked for these channels. Both came in loud and clear first time... yippee,,, more goodies to brag about ... keep em comin' in Phila

Don J

I have a DTC 100 and I am unable to receive 54-1 WB17. I am receiving 32-1 but since then I have lost WHYY. Has anyone else lost WHYY? I am on the other side of the Northeast Phila. Airport and have poor reception to begin with.

Marco,

We may be on to something here. I receive 3,6 and 57 pretty good. Rarely I receive 10 and 29 (to be expected as they are on low power).

I find no evidence of 17 (54-1) on my DTC-100 (F38310).

I thought maybe 17 was not sending the PSIP information correctly so I disabled that. Still nothing. I understand some tuners react differently to incorrect PSIP information.

I still think because I receive 57 strong, I should at least have some evidence of 17.

Anyone else have this problem?

Thanks.

This DTC-100 sub-thread makes me wonder whether you guys could try another type of decoder and test your theory ......

We may be on to something here. I receive 3,6 and 57 pretty good. Rarely I receive 10 and 29 (to be expected as they are on low power). I find no evidence of 17 (54-1) on my DTC-100 (F38310).

I thought maybe 17 was not sending the PSIP information correctly so I disabled that. Still nothing. I understand some tuners react differently to incorrect PSIP information.

I still think because I receive 57 strong, I should at least have some evidence of 17.

Anyone else have this problem?

YES!

I'm in Reading, PA and have exactly the same situation that you describe.

Using a Dish 6000 and an outdoor CM 4228 I get about a 65-70% signal for WPSG, but not so much as a burp from WPHL. Same as you for 3,6,10,29.

Odd, huh?

Hey, Peter Putman...any thoughts?

I get both in on the DTC-100 (in the F38310) with a signal strength of
84-88. (Approx 20 miles from towers)

I may have figured out the problem. Looks like Ch. 17 is broadcasting in a north-south ellipitcal pattern vs. the circular pattern EVERY OTHER Philly station is using.

I seem to be just outside of this pattern.

This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. I can think of no conceivable reason for this.

Hopefully that WB 17 engineer can join so we can hear their side.

I'm 70+ miles northeast of Philadelphia in West Orange,NJ.Digital 17 comes in strong at night,UPN just makes the light on the Samsung receiver flicker.KYW and WPVI are strong 24/7.

Originally posted by pabuwal
I may have figured out the problem. Looks like Ch. 17 is broadcasting in a north-south ellipitcal pattern vs. the circular pattern EVERY OTHER Philly station is using.

I seem to be just outside of this pattern.

This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. I can think of no conceivable reason for this.

Hopefully that WB 17 engineer can join so we can hear their side.

I believe every engineer would want a circular pattern, but due to objects, such as other towers, antennas and even buildings or trees that patterns are effected.... perhaps 17's "odd shaped" pattern might be the result of this ..... or ... has been instructed to do so... because of possible interference with a pre-exsisting other facility of some type ???

Originally posted by Randy Boecker
I'm wondering how many Dish 6000 owners are picking up 32-1 (WPSG) and where they are located? The engineer at KYW/WPSG seems to think that some STB's will be better at picking up the signal than others.

Randy.

I live not too far away from you in Lower Nazareth Township, near the Newburg Inn on route 191.

I have a DishNetwork 6000 connected to a Channel Master 4228 antenna with a Channel Master 7777 preamp and a Channel Master 9521 rotor.

I'm able to receive WPSG at 85% on my 6000.

Attached is information on all of the digital channels that I'm able to receive to date:

DIGITAL
CHANNEL STATION SIGNAL LEVEL
26 KYW 80%
64 WPVI 80%
67 WCAU 65%
23 WLYH 70%
54 WPHL 85%
42 WTXF 80%
43 WNJT 70%
46 WFMZ 75%
32 WPSG 85%
62 WLVT 75%
41 WVIA 85%

Also, my son-in law is able to receive WPSG in Wind Gap, PA on his Toshiba DST-3000 DirecTV receiver.

Hope this helps.

Bob

Wow, you seem to be able to pick up all DT signals in the area. I can get most, not all, so I'm quite happy.

I get the following from Burlington (southern Jersey):
- 26-1 KYW 93-100% (back to normal now; last week was mid-70's)
- 32-1 WPSG 100%
- 42-1 WTXF 78%
- 43-1 WNJT (PBS station) 40%
- 52-1 (Another NJ PBS station) 40%
- 54-1 WPHL 100%
- 55-1 WHYY 76%
- 64-1 WPVI 100%
- 67-1 WCAU 44-54%

Originally posted by rcodey
I'm 70+ miles northeast of Philadelphia in West Orange,NJ.Digital 17 comes in strong at night,UPN just makes the light on the Samsung receiver flicker.KYW and WPVI are strong 24/7.

rcodey,
what's your antenna and stb model?
thanks.
ben

I too have DTC-100 (F-33810) and can get KYW @ 64% from NW-NJ, morris county, but not ABC. I plan on trying a Hughes E-86 receiver (a friend's) to determine whether or not it's the receiver or the antenna. I doubt it's the antenna I am using the CM 4228 equipped with the CM 7775 amp. I have a feeling it is the sensitivity of the receiver. I will let you know soon as I get aroung to testing.

Folks,

It would help us a lot if, when posting reception reports, you include an address or nearby intersection. "Central NJ" isn't much help in locating you on a map.

Thanks!

STB is Samsung 150.Antenna is Channel Master4248.My elevation is about 500ft,with antenna about 30ft. above ground on roof.I'm wondering if digital 32(UPN) is hampered by analog 31,just mile and a half away.Analog 31 and 34 are in West Orange since towers went down.

Northeast Phila. Reception

I figured out my problem. I have a DTC100 and I was not getting any signal from 54-1(WPHL) and 55-1(WHYY). I had a Radio Shack 20db UHF in line amplifier to boost the signal, it helped when everyone was at low power. After removing the amplifier, I am now getting all the Phila DT Locals for 3, 6, 10, 12, 17, 29, 57. WCAU's signal is poor at 34%, WTXF at 52%, WHYY at 70%, everyone else is 82% and above.

So when is WCAU (NBC) moving to the new tower? Last I heard it was the end of the month. Any updates? This is the only one left for me, as I get squat right now. :(

I'm now getting WPHL and WPSG very well. Both look lovely, except:

WPHL 17-1 is showing all 4:3 material with the top and bottom cropped, to get a 16:9 picture. I'd really prefer to get 4:3 material in 4:3, and let me handle shapes with my TV or receiver. I can't receive what I'm missing with the way they're broadcasting it. I ended up switching back to the analog channel (well, really the DirecTV channel) because it was driving me nuts.

Brajash - WNJT 52-1 is the same as 43-3 and 43-4. For some reason, they broadcast the upconverted stuff on 43-3 during the day, and 52-1 is non-existent until they run the demo loop at night. I guess the PSIP needs to be fixed for the .3 and .4 channels.

Originally posted by MSmith
I'm now getting WPHL and WPSG very well. Both look lovely, except:

WPHL 17-1 is showing all 4:3 material with the top and bottom cropped, to get a 16:9 picture. I'd really prefer to get 4:3 material in 4:3, and let me handle shapes with my TV or receiver. I can't receive what I'm missing with the way they're broadcasting it. I ended up switching back to the analog channel (well, really the DirecTV channel) because it was driving me nuts.


If you look carefully, it is not 16:9. It is something like 14:9. You should still have thin (very thin) black bars on the left and right. Sometimes it is hard to see if the picture itself near the bars is black while you are watching.

I kind of like it (the 14:9). But I never really watch the digital channels unless it is an HDTV program (which would be 16:9). I don't see much of a gain in picture quality watching regular analog programming via the OTA channels vs. cable. Both are pretty lousy.

Eric

Originally posted by caesar1
I kind of like it (the 14:9). But I never really watch the digital channels unless it is an HDTV program (which would be 16:9). I don't see much of a gain in picture quality watching regular analog programming via the OTA channels vs. cable. Both are pretty lousy.

Eric

Where are you located that cable and OTA are both lousy? :confused: IMO, OTA is miles better than cable, particularly CBS, ABC, and FOX (can't get NBC yet so can say either way). Colors are richer, sharper, etc. Are you sure you've got your OTA set up correctly?

Originally posted by caesar1
I kind of like it (the 14:9). But I never really watch the digital channels unless it is an HDTV program (which would be 16:9). I don't see much of a gain in picture quality watching regular analog programming via the OTA channels vs. cable. Both are pretty lousy.

Eric

Where are you located that cable and OTA are both lousy? :confused: IMO, OTA is miles better than cable, particularly CBS, ABC, and FOX (can't get NBC yet so can say either way). Colors are richer, sharper, etc. Are you sure you've got your OTA set up correctly? ;)

Well it is better than regular cable to some extent, but at least with regular cable I can use the stretch mode on my TV to fill the screen (so I don't need to worry about burn-in) -- I'm OAR when it comes to movies, DVDs etc. But regular TV I don't care about OAR.

Also, with regular cable I can channel surf among all the other analog channels as I would normally. With my STB, I'm stuck with just the digital channels -- and I'm usually watching other cable channels (not available via HDTV) (or surfing).

So I watch the digital channels generally only when it is a true HDTV program -- where the advantages of picture quality are more obvious.

Are you sure 17-1 is coming in 14:9? I'm seeing the tops of heads cut off when compared to the analog channel, and it seems to go all the way out to the edges of my 34XBR800 16:9.

It definitely is some weird ratio and definitely not 16 x 9 (for non-hdtv broadcasts).

I (and other people) have thin black bars on the left and right on our 16 x 9 sets. Yes, there is some top/bottome cut-off as well.

Eric

Originally posted by caesar1
It definitely is some weird ratio and definitely not 16 x 9 (for non-hdtv broadcasts).

I (and other people) have thin black bars on the left and right on our 16 x 9 sets. Yes, there is some top/bottome cut-off as well.

Eric

has anyone been able to get a reply from 17 as to why they are doing this.
it looks awful with the tops and bottoms cut off and those small bars on the sides.

The little black bars on the sides are barely noticable, but the cropping of heads is a little annoying! :mad:

I ask again.........when will NBC be moving to the new tower??

Calabs,

Last week I checked with the engineer at WCAU-DT, he said that they will be on the new tower by the end of November.

Joe

Originally posted by jcardani
Calabs,

Last week I checked with the engineer at WCAU-DT, he said that they will be on the new tower by the end of November.

Joe

Thanks Joe! I wait with baited breath! ;)

Anyone catch Enterprise last night on UPN? It's a letterboxed image within the 4:3 screen. Since it's a digital station, I couldn't expand it to fill the screen on my DST-3000. That was annoying, so back to DirecTV I went.

Any idea when 32 will switch to 57-1? Just wondering.

Rob

i get channel 57 at 32-1 and 57-1 on mymits sr-hd500

Rob, same here re: 'Enterprise' on UPN. The picture quality was great, but window-boxed. I tried all sorts of stretch/zoom variations on my STB & HDTV w/o any way to make the picture fill the screen. It'd be great if they zoomed the image, but I don't see it happening. For the meantime, I have a solution ... record the show via s-video on DVD-RAM using my Panny HS2 & play it back on my Panny RP91 scaled to fit the TV.

Originally posted by RTrueman
Anyone catch Enterprise last night on UPN? It's a letterboxed image within the 4:3 screen. Since it's a digital station, I couldn't expand it to fill the screen on my DST-3000. That was annoying, so back to DirecTV I went.

Any idea when 32 will switch to 57-1? Just wondering.

Rob

Rob - I use a Samsung t151 and changed the screen setting to a 4:3, then selected full - she filled the screen - guess what I'm saying is some OTA boxes let you do that ....

Originally posted by caesar1
If you look carefully, it is not 16:9. It is something like 14:9. You should still have thin (very thin) black bars on the left and right. Sometimes it is hard to see if the picture itself near the bars is black while you are watching.

I kind of like it (the 14:9). But I never really watch the digital channels unless it is an HDTV program (which would be 16:9). I don't see much of a gain in picture quality watching regular analog programming via the OTA channels vs. cable. Both are pretty lousy.

Eric

it is 14x9

Originally posted by whotony
has anyone been able to get a reply from 17 as to why they are doing this.
it looks awful with the tops and bottoms cut off and those small bars on the sides.

We've select the 14:9 format because it seems to provide the best screen coverage without a lot of loss. 4:3 looks lost on a large screen and gets even worse when it's letterboxed.
When program providers start providing shows formated correctly for 16:9, we'll adjest. (Don't hold your breath)

Originally posted by grieger
We've select the 14:9 format because it seems to provide the best screen coverage without a lot of loss. 4:3 looks lost on a large screen and gets even worse when it's letterboxed.
When program providers start providing shows formated correctly for 16:9, we'll adjust. (Don't hold your breath)

"We've select the 14:9 format"


WHAT?? that is ridiculous. put the screen to normal and please don't tell us what it looks like . it looks bad when half the screen is cropped off when you add up the missing portion from the top and bottom.

give me a break. are you a rep from channel 17.

look at the other digital channels in Philly. do they crop like this? no.
that is just silly.
gets worse when letterboxed. are you joking?

it's supposed to look like that.
get a clue man.

thats the whole point of this type of tv.

Check it out but WPVI often times uses 14:9 as well on anything other than network programming. The black side bars on their signal is alot narrower than those used on KYW or WCAU.

I don't mind the 14:9 all that much as long as the HD shows are "properly" shown in 16:9 as intended. It's a compromise of sorts...

BTW... let's take it a little easy on Gunnar (greiger). He and the folks at 17 have been very accomodating and do read/listen to our gripes/requests!

Originally posted by Ratman
I
BTW... let's take it a little easy on Gunnar (greiger). He and the folks at 17 have been very accomodating and do read/listen to our gripes/requests!

Yes, I noticed that 17 got rid of the huge 17 logo. But shouldn't the wphl-dt text be translucent? It is not. The other stations -- like wpvi-dt, etc. have that text on the left-side translucent.

Eric

In all reality, I would prefer NO BUGS! I find it distracting first of all. Secondly, I know what channel I have selected to watch and I do not need to be reminded throughout the entire program. And thirdly... if there is a network bug on the bottom right, do I really need one in the bottom left also?

As a compromise... why can't the stations just display the bugs during commercials and time the bug to disappear after 10-15 seconds when the program comes back on?

If this continues... Lord knows what will be put in the top left/right corners too!

Hope this doesn't give them ideas, but wouldn't it suck if they started putting sponsor logos on screen all of the time?

What would stop them?

:(

Originally posted by JWhip
Check it out but WPVI often times uses 14:9 as well on anything other than network programming. The black side bars on their signal is alot narrower than those used on KYW or WCAU.

i don't think so. could you point out a specific show for me.
maybe you are thinking of channel 29, cause that most definitely is always cropped very slightly, but not as ridiculous as 17.

I don't mind the 14:9 all that much as long as the HD shows are "properly" shown in 16:9 as intended. It's a compromise of sorts...

BTW... let's take it a little easy on Gunnar (greiger). He and the folks at 17 have been very accommodating and do read/listen to our gripes/requests!

so.. 16x9 should be shown properly but not 4x3. what kind of thought process is that.

plus gunnar greiger brought it on himself when he tells me what aspect ratio i have to watch and decides to change it from what it is supposed to be.

When program providers start providing shows formated correctly for 16:9, we'll adjust

greiger what about family affair that is a 16x9 show but not on channel 17.

gunnar/greiger don't decide for us what the aspect ratio should look like. put it on the screen the way it is supposed to look and let people decide for them self.

don't tell me what i should look at.

i will gladly turn off channel 17 until it is in proper aspect ratio. YOU don't hold your breath.

it's already a re hard enough battle to get studios to release movies on dvd in proper aspect ratio. don't make it another battle for tv too.

hbo-hd already crops widescreen movies to fit in a 16x9 frame.

Hi,
I am in the King of prussia area and have the internal RS double bow-tie with a Samsung 150. My signal strengths on CBS, ABC, NBC, WB, UPN are all around 30-50%.

Also on WB, I get drop-outs every now and then for a second or two. Anyone else see that?

Would adding a amplifier help? What are some good models. I had read somewhere else that RS had couple of discontinued models like 15-1167, 15-1168.Couldnt find any in this area. Any suggestions as to what else might be better?

thanks

Rajesh

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by JWhip
Check it out but WPVI often times uses 14:9 as well on anything other than network programming. The black side bars on their signal is alot narrower than those used on KYW or WCAU.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I see ths right now it looks very much the way 29 looks when i watch that.

Originally posted by whotony
so.. 16x9 should be shown properly but not 4x3. what kind of thought process is that.
That's what was decided by the engineers. They may change in time with requests that are not condecending.

plus gunnar greiger brought it on himself when he tells me what aspect ratio i have to watch and decides to change it from what it is supposed to be.
Mr. Rieger does not own the station. I'm sure that he has the best interests of the general public and will relate feedback to his superiors with any dissatifaction from the public. The owners/management will make the ultimate decision.

gunnar/greiger don't decide for us what the aspect ratio should look like. put it on the screen the way it is supposed to look and let people decide for them self.
See above.

don't tell me what i should look at.
i will gladly turn off channel 17 until it is in proper aspect ratio
Perhaps that is the best route for you to take. If I were Mr. Rieger, I would ignore your rants! You can catch more bees with honey than you can with vinegar.

YOU don't hold your breath.
I believe he was referring to the network providing the proper aspect ratios fed to the station.

it's already a re hard enough battle to get studios to release movies on dvd in proper aspect ratio. don't make it another battle for tv too.
It's not a battle! All you need to do is contact the stations directly if you are so adamant about this! You are the one with both guns cocked and loaded.

hbo-hd already crops widescreen movies to fit in a 16x9 frame.
Unsubscribe!

Mr. Rieger does not own the station. I'm sure that he has the best interests of the general public and will relate feedback to his superiors with any dissatifaction from the public. The owners/management will make the ultimate decision.

no he doesnt own the station but when he says "We've select the 14:9 format" that means him and the station.

. YOU don't hold your breath.
I believe he was referring to the network providing the proper aspect ratios fed to the station. No need to get catty.
you did not include my entire quote when you quoted me.
i was referring to 17 not showing the widescreen version of family affair. when it is available.



" will gladly turn off channel 17 until it is in proper aspect ratio"......

Perhaps that is the best route for you to take. If I were Mr. Rieger, I would ignore your childish rants! You can catch more bees with honey than you can with vinegar.
why is that a rant ?
am i not allowed to offer opinion?
if i don't like it why should i watch it?
if they decided it would be better to show the channel
sideways would you still watch it because greiger said
it was better that way?

Originally posted by whotony
so.. 16x9 should be shown properly but not 4x3. what kind of thought process is that.

That's what was decided by the engineers. They may change in time with requests that are not condecending

that was not a response to greiger it was to another member.

I believe RATMAN was attempting to speak to a larger issue. We are basically apart of a "new frontier" -- HD has been compared to the introduction of Color in the 50's. The television stations are learning, just as we are ....

I have seen past issues with other HD television stations immediately treated with "childish" responses or assumptions by some members, while others have contacted the people in charge and discussed or informed them of the issue - it was resolved and in many cases improvements followed

I have edited a few comments. Please refrain from name calling.

For those that may be interested:

E-Mail:
wb17feedback@tribune.com

or

Philadelphia's WB17
5001 Wynnefield Ave.
Philadelphia, PA 19131
215.878.1700

CENTRAL CONTACTS

Administration and Programming:
Leslie Glenn - VP & General Manager

Human Resources and Community Affairs:
Rachael Amara - Director of Human Resources
and Community Affairs

Creative Services/Promotion:
Wendy Kaiser - Creative Services Director


News:
Chuck Carter - News Director

Sales:
Patrick Loftus - General Sales Manager

Engineering:
Gunnar Rieger - Director of Engineering

Public Relations/Publicity/Events/Website:
Jesse Cute - Public Relations Manager

Originally posted by Ratman
For those that may be interested:

E-Mail:
wb17feedback@tribune.com

or

Philadelphia's WB17
5001 Wynnefield Ave.
Philadelphia, PA 19131
215.878.1700

CENTRAL CONTACTS

Administration and Programming:
Leslie Glenn - VP & General Manager

Human Resources and Community Affairs:
Rachael Amara - Director of Human Resources
and Community Affairs

Creative Services/Promotion:
Wendy Kaiser - Creative Services Director


News:
Chuck Carter - News Director

Sales:
Patrick Loftus - General Sales Manager

Engineering:
Gunnar Rieger - Director of Engineering

Public Relations/Publicity/Events/Website:
Jesse Cute - Public Relations Manager


thanks i'll use that to send some constructive criticism their way.

Do we know for sure that Ch. 17 (54-1) is currently at full power right now?

I pull in 57 (32-1) with a 52 signal strength and 17 (54-1) with a 28 signal strength.

I seem to remember hearing 11/30 would be the go-live full power date.

Can anyone confirm this?

Thanks.

Seems full power to me. I'm getting over 75% up here in the Lehigh Valley (Allentown/Bethlehem/Easton)

Of course, I still can't lock onto UPN 57 (32-1) because, I believe, because of the signal pattern they are generating at the power they are transmitting. (which is half of what WB17 (54-1) is sending out)

pabuwal, please update your profile to include your location. That will REALLY help when reading your posts.

Originally posted by pabuwal
Do we know for sure that Ch. 17 (54-1) is currently at full power right now?

I pull in 57 (32-1) with a 52 signal strength and 17 (54-1) with a 28 signal strength.

I seem to remember hearing 11/30 would be the go-live full power date.

Can anyone confirm this?

Thanks.

We are at full power and have ben since 11/1

Originally posted by pabuwal
Do we know for sure that Ch. 17 (54-1) is currently at full power right now?

I pull in 57 (32-1) with a 52 signal strength and 17 (54-1) with a 28 signal strength.

I seem to remember hearing 11/30 would be the go-live full power date.

Can anyone confirm this?

Thanks.

We are at full power and have been since 11/1

Did anybody else see a shift in WPHL 17-1? Last night, I watched Everwood and it seemed to be in correct 16:9, with commercials popping back to 14:9 with the entire screen available.

Did they change it?

grieger,

I was happy to see WB17 shrinks the bug. Now it's much better. Off course, I prefer not seeing the bug on the bottom-left corner like CBS and ABC (which are my fav. HD channels) or FOX (It's not HD, but still better than 480i)

One request though, If you can't entirely remove the bottom-left corner bug, can you at least make it transparent like NBC?

Also, I like the idea about the bug appear like 5 minutes after the commercials and during commercials, and then disappear during the show.

Originally posted by MSmith
Did anybody else see a shift in WPHL 17-1? Last night, I watched Everwood and it seemed to be in correct 16:9, with commercials popping back to 14:9 with the entire screen available.

Did they change it?

But isn't that because that show was in HDTV (which will fill the screen)?

If a show is not in HDTV (but you view it on the digital channel, if will be 14 x 9 on WPHL).

I believe it was Not a change, but just the difference between viewing an HDTV show and a non-HDTV show on the digital channel.

I think some people think that everything viewed on a digitial channel is in HDTV -- it is not. When it is not, you will generally see side bars (narrower side bars on WPHL, due to the 14 x 9).

Eric

Originally posted by grieger
We are at full power and have been since 11/1

Thanks for the reply. Would you know if you are broadcasting in an elliptical pattern rather then the circular pattern the other Philly stations are using?

I live in Somerset, NJ (Central NJ) and can't figure out why Ch.57's signal is so much stronger then Ch. 17.

Thanks.

We're using an inverted skull pattern.

-gr

Originally posted by whotony
"We've select the 14:9 format"


WHAT?? that is ridiculous. put the screen to normal and please don't tell us what it looks like . it looks bad when half the screen is cropped off when you add up the missing portion from the top and bottom.

give me a break. are you a rep from channel 17.

look at the other digital channels in Philly. do they crop like this? no.
that is just silly.
gets worse when letterboxed. are you joking?

it's supposed to look like that.
get a clue man.

thats the whole point of this type of tv.

If we run 16:9, the upconverted 4:3 format will look "squatty" and someone won't like it.
If we run 4:3, you'll enjoy black sidebars and a small picture on your huge screen...and someone will complain.
The 14:9 upconversion is based on our opinion that it is the least objectionable option.

As more true HD programming becomes available, this will become a mute issue.

Try being a little patient. There's not much at the top and bottom of the screen on Jerry Springer anyway.

Originally posted by grieger
We're using an inverted skull pattern.

-gr

I am not familiar with that pattern. What viewing area does that emphasize?

Would this explain why I receive Chs. 57, 6, and 3 fine and not Ch. 17 here in Somerset, NJ (near New Brunswick and Piscatway)? Ch. 29 and 10 are on low power so I do not include them.

Thanks.

Originally posted by grieger

Try being a little patient. There's not much at the top and bottom of the screen on Jerry Springer anyway.

Now that's funny!

Hey, grieger! Thanks for giving us some of the inside scoop at 17. I kinda like the 14:9 format, but what do I know! :) I'd like to second (or third) the opinion about making the Bug translucent or, even better, removing it after some delay. Keep us informed!

Later.

Rob

If we run 16:9, the upconverted 4:3 format will look "squatty" and someone won't like it.
If we run 4:3, you'll enjoy black sidebars and a small picture on your huge screen...and someone will complain.
The 14:9 upconversion is based on our opinion that it is the least objectionable option.

As more true HD programming becomes available, this will become a mute issue.

Try being a little patient. There's not much at the top and bottom of the screen on Jerry Springer anyway.

g reiger.
i realize that was somewhat of a joke but dont watch springer. the less i see of him the better. but...

channels 3,6,10 and 29 all show the digital channel with barely any cropping at all. and have been this way for, what 1, 2 years or so.
so anyone who will turn in to your channel are already used to seeing the image in a 4x3 with black bars on the side.

what 17 does is not ordinary and is very strange to see when you turn on the channel and it is blown up large like that and cropped.

it seems more like it is possable that you (17) are doing this to draw some attention to the channel.

again all the other channels show the proper aspect ratio including the other new channel, 57 digital.

people are more likely to think something is wrong with the braodcast if they see the way 17 is compared to every other channel in philly.

i apolagize if a came acroos a bit harsh in the post you quoted but origional or maybe natural aspect ratio is much easier on the eye.

and i would guess almost all of the people who buy a widescreen tv are aware of the 4x3 ratio for regular broadcast tv and know and expect to see the bars on the side.

Originally posted by pabuwal
I am not familiar with that pattern. What viewing area does that emphasize?

Would this explain why I receive Chs. 57, 6, and 3 fine and not Ch. 17 here in Somerset, NJ (near New Brunswick and Piscatway)? Ch. 29 and 10 are on low power so I do not include them.

Thanks. yes this is why you have trouble with Ch. 17

Gunnar,

Please count me as a vote against the current format.

I'm using a Sony HD200 receiver with a Sony 34XBR800 16:9 TV. When I watch your station, I see essentially the whole screen full, but the top and bottom of the picture is cut off. I feel that this is unwatchable.

I would recommend that you broadcast 4:3 in 4:3, or at least in the same ratio that WPVI 6 is using.

The main issue is this - with the way that you are broadcasting, I CAN'T possibly get back the part of the picture that is missing. On the other hand, if you broadcast in 4:3, a user with a 16:9 TV could use the stretch modes on their TV to produce the same effect as your current broadcast.

You are the only station in Philadelphia (out of 7) that causes this problem for me. Please reconsider the format that you are using.

Originally posted by MSmith
Gunnar,

Please count me as a vote against the current format.

I'm using a Sony HD200 receiver with a Sony 34XBR800 16:9 TV. When I watch your station, I see essentially the whole screen full, but the top and bottom of the picture is cut off. I feel that this is unwatchable.

I would recommend that you broadcast 4:3 in 4:3, or at least in the same ratio that WPVI 6 is using.

The main issue is this - with the way that you are broadcasting, I CAN'T possibly get back the part of the picture that is missing. On the other hand, if you broadcast in 4:3, a user with a 16:9 TV could use the stretch modes on their TV to produce the same effect as your current broadcast.

You are the only station in Philadelphia (out of 7) that causes this problem for me. Please reconsider the format that you are using.

:D

I cannot get 32-1 for the life of me. I have a DTC-100 receiver. Is there a problem with my receiver or is this just a weak signal? I get 54 at 76 and nothing else under 60 (except 55 which does not even register). 32 Does not even show up on a channel search! Is anyone else having the same problems? Yes I am using a preamp.

OK, we give up...

You'll note that we're now passing 4:3 unformatted.

Let us know what you think.

-Gunnar

Originally posted by RTrueman
Now that's funny!

Hey, grieger! Thanks for giving us some of the inside scoop at 17. I kinda like the 14:9 format, but what do I know! :) I'd like to second (or third) the opinion about making the Bug translucent or, even better, removing it after some delay. Keep us informed!

Later.

Rob

Rob,

Unfortunately, we don't have the switching capability (yet) to drop the logo at will.
The choices at present are On or Off, transparency and position.

As DTV gains momentum (we hope) and starts generating revenue, we'll be adding the equipment necessary for better control of the stream.

-Gunnar

gunnar that looks fabulous.
it is jenny jones though.
but the picture looks better, it looks tighter and a little clearer because of that.
i just got your PM and thanks for at least giving it a shot.

tony

Originally posted by grieger
OK, we give up...

You'll note that we're now passing 4:3 unformatted.

Let us know what you think.

-Gunnar

Darn, I actually liked the 14:9 -- less worry about burn-in. Looked almost widescreen. Don't care about OAR for non-HDTV programming anyway.

I do note that the WB logo on the right appears too low. I know this could be an overscan issue, but wondering if others see the very bottom of the WB logo cut-off slightly.

Shouldn't there be some screen space between the bottom of the logo and the edge of the screen?

Also, the wphl local logo on the left should definitely be translucent. All other stations have that translucent as well. Looks cooler that way too.


Eric

about burn in. yes this is an issue. fortunately some have an hd box that is capable of changing the aspect ratio by zooming in the image to fill the screen. i have this ability but still want to see the entire image available.
someone else mentioned that 6abc slightly crops so it isnt as drastic as the 14x9 crop. maybe you could look at that as a possability.

i think 29 does the same thing as 6.

I cannot get 32-1 for the life of me. I have a DTC-100 receiver. Is there a problem with my receiver or is this just a weak signal? I get 54 at 76 and nothing else under 60 (except 55 which does not even register). 32 Does not even show up on a channel search! Is anyone else having the same problems? Yes I am using a preamp.

Yes, I have the same problem. I'm using a pre-amp with a Dish 6000. Please update your profile to show your location. Where are you? I'm located right on the Bethlehem Township/Palmer Township line. I get WB17 (54-1) at over 75%, and pick up every other Philadelphia station reliably (except WCAU on low power) except 32-1.

Originally posted by whotony
about burn in. yes this is an issue. fortunately some have an hd box that is capable of changing the aspect ratio by zooming in the image to fill the screen. i have this ability but still want to see the entire image available.
someone else mentioned that 6abc slightly crops so it isnt as drastic as the 14x9 crop. maybe you could look at that as a possability.

i think 29 does the same thing as 6.

Since the sidebars are part of the image on the digital channels, I can only fill the screen (on 4 x 3 material on the digital channel), if I lie to my set-top box and tell it I have a 4 x 3 TV. I can then use zoom on 4 x 3 and fill the entire screen -- this also chops off a little from the top/bottom. I have a samsung t151 set top box.

So I would rather see 14 x 9, where I don't have to change anything at all and most of the screen is filled. Either way, I lose some stuff top/bottom (whether WPHL does it, or I do it via my Samsung T151).

Eric]

Originally posted by caesar1
Since the sidebars are part of the image on the digital channels, I can only fill the screen (on 4 x 3 material on the digital channel), if I lie to my set-top box and tell it I have a 4 x 3 TV. I can then use zoom on 4 x 3 and fill the entire screen -- this also chops off a little from the top/bottom. I have a samsung t151 set top box.

So I would rather see 14 x 9, where I don't have to change anything at all and most of the screen is filled. Either way, I lose some stuff top/bottom (whether WPHL does it, or I do it via my Samsung T151).

Eric]

I agree with caesar1. Not having to fuss with the aspect ratio is worth losing a small amount of information on the top and bottom. Perhaps we should take a vote and let everyone be heard on this matter. What do you think Gunnar? :eek:

Originally posted by grieger
We're using an inverted skull pattern.

-gr

grieger,

I don't understand why Ch. 17 would broadcast a digital signal that is not available to their entire viewing population.

I receive Ch 17 analog very well, receive Ch. 17 on my cable system and receive every other digital channel very well.

Yet, Ch. 17 has made a decision that precludes me from receiving their digital broadcasts.


Why is that??

You'll never get a concensus here, everyone has a different opinion.

If you're worried about burn-in, what difference does it make if the bars are at the 4:3 positions or the 14:6 positions? You still have bars no matter what.

Personally, I think the best course of action is to leave the image unadulterated at 4:3. This is the way those programs were meant to be viewed. Unstretched. Allow each viewer to stretch or not with their own equipment. That's why aspect ratio control is a big feature on 16:9 televisions and digital/HD receivers.

If you want to fill your screen by distorting the image and losing information at the top and bottom, then by all means, you should be able to do that. But it shouldn't be done by the broadcaster, IMHO.

I agree, for what it's worth. OAR is the way video should be broadcast. We can each set the equipment we choose to display as we like.

Originally posted by Randy Boecker
You'll never get a concensus here, everyone has a different opinion.

If you're worried about burn-in, what difference does it make if the bars are at the 4:3 positions or the 14:6 positions? You still have bars no matter what.

Personally, I think the best course of action is to leave the image unadulterated at 4:3. This is the way those programs were meant to be viewed. Unstretched. Allow each viewer to stretch or not with their own equipment. That's why aspect ratio control is a big feature on 16:9 televisions and digital/HD receivers.

If you want to fill your screen by distorting the image and losing information at the top and bottom, then by all means, you should be able to do that. But it shouldn't be done by the broadcaster, IMHO.

But do the black bars have to be broadcast as PART of the picture? If 4x3 content is shown on the digital channel without the black bars being part of the picture, it is then easier to use aspect ratio changes on the set-top box.

So if no black bars as part of the picture I agree it should be OAR. If black bars are made part of the picture transmitted than 14 x 9 is better.

I belive channel 12-1 (WHYY-DT) shows some 4 x 3 content without transmitting black bars (so all zoom/full options on the set top box are available).

Eric

So if no black bars as part of the picture I agree it should be OAR. If black bars are made part of the picture transmitted than 14 x 9 is better.

I still don't understand your logic. Are you saying, by extrapolation, that you'd even prefer them to stretch the image to 16:9 if they could to completely eliminate the black bars? Why would you want a stretched image and lose part of it (14:9), rather than get the whole image in the format it was originally intended to be broadcast (4:3)? You get windowbox bars either way, but in one case the image is distorted and cropped, and in the other it isn't.

Originally posted by Randy Boecker
I still don't understand your logic. Are you saying, by extrapolation, that you'd even prefer them to stretch the image to 16:9 if they could to completely eliminate the black bars? Why would you want a stretched image and lose part of it (14:9), rather than get the whole image in the format it was originally intended to be broadcast (4:3)? You get windowbox bars either way, but in one case the image is distorted and cropped, and in the other it isn't.


No, by no black bars I mean none transmitted by the station. The set-top box will put gray bars on the side for 4 x 3 content. Thus, no distortion.

Just transmit a 4 x 3 picture for non-HDTV content on the digital channel(like WHYY - DT does). That way I can see it in 4 x 3 if I choose (with gray side bars put their by my set top box), or I can stretch it to fill the screen and distort it if I choose to. But it is easier to fill the screen this way, then when the black bars are inserted as part of the picture. When the black bars are part of the picture, the set top box and my TV think it is a real HDTV picture (when it is in reality a 4 x 3 content with black bars to make it appear as if it was 16 x 9) and all of the stretching options are not possible.

My point is, when it is a 4 x 3 content picture, lets stop pretending that it is 16 x 9 by INSERTING black bars in the transmission. Just transmit the 4 x 3 picture as it is and let us do the bars and the stretching if we choose to stretch. The bars inserted by the station make a lot of options impossible.

Eric

Ok, now I gotcha. It doesn't necessarily have to do with the aspect ratio as much as that information being transmitted by the station.

Don't all DT channels do this? Don't they always transmit a 16:9 signal no matter what (thus filling the excess with black)? I guess I've always just accepted this as the way it is.

Some engineering type explain this, I hope

No, by no black bars I mean none transmitted by the station. The set-top box will put gray bars on the side for 4 x 3 content. Thus, no distortion.

i know what he means by that.
during the day 12 uses the analog signal on the diigtal channel so we see grey bars instead of black bars.

i think thats what he is referring to.

Originally posted by Randy Boecker
Ok, now I gotcha. It doesn't necessarily have to do with the aspect ratio as much as that information being transmitted by the station.

Don't all DT channels do this? Don't they always transmit a 16:9 signal no matter what (thus filling the excess with black)? I guess I've always just accepted this as the way it is.

Some engineering type explain this, I hope

It is done by most of the DT channels, but not all. I don't know why they do this. All set top boxes and 16 x 9 TVs, as I understand it, will put it any side bars for a 4 x 3 picture whether on digital or analog channels.

WHYY-DT (PBS in Philadelphia) does not always transmit black bars with its picture when showing 4 x 3 content. This opens up all avenues of stretching via your set top box, and will still allow OAR (with side bars) if you so choose. Seems the best of both worlds. Technically it is a SDTV signal, not HDTV when done this way. My set top box info. shows SD when PBS does this, not HD. But if it is 4 x 3 content, then who cares -- the signal should be SDTV. It is not HDTV content, so a full 16 x 9 picture doesn't need to be transmitted.

I don't think it effects picture quality of the 4 x 3 content either. It might require different equipment though or a switch to be thrown. I dunno.

But why transmit black bars in a picture just to artificially fill a 16 x 9 screen, when the 16 x 9 screens and set top boxes will do this without this "help" from the station.

Eric

Originally posted by grieger
OK, we give up...

You'll note that we're now passing 4:3 unformatted.

Let us know what you think.

-Gunnar

I personally thought your 14:9 conversion looked pretty good for the 4:3 material.




Does anyone know what UPN will broadcast Enterprise in HD in Philly?

One vote for the 14:9 conversion.Looked pretty in Northern New Jersey.Don't like the traditional 4:3.

Originally posted by Dan Bither
I personally thought your 14:9 conversion looked pretty good for the 4:3 material.




Does anyone know what UPN will broadcast Voyager in HD in Philly?

When is Voyager aired ?????

Folks,

My participation in this forum has been short but sweet. Friday will be my last day at WB17 as I move back to Boston to go to work for WB56, Boston/WB45, Albany.

I know that others from WB17 monitor this forum (Hi Ed) and I hope they'll respond to your questions.

Be patient with us broadcasters...DTV is here, but hasn't arrived just yet.
-gr

Gunnar (or his replacement),

Thanks for the change. I preferred your new format.

However, on Birds of Prey (which is letterboxed to start with), I received it letterboxed and windowboxed. Is it possible to throw the switch when broadcasting real HDTV or 16:9 material?

If it's not possible to throw the switch, I still preferred last night's format to what we had previously.

Birds of Prey is not supplied to us in HD by WB, which is why you saw the letterbox inside a 4:3 format. I suspect it might be delivered in HD next season, but that's just my opinion.
The only HD WB programs this season are:

Reba
Family Affair
Smallville
Everwood

-gr

grieger/ED -- Thanks for your participation here & for your commitment to HDTV. I've sampled 'Smallville' & 'Everwood' & the HD picture quality is terrific!

Originally posted by Brajesh
grieger/ED -- Thanks for your participation here & for your commitment to HDTV. I've sampled 'Smallville' & 'Everwood' & the HD picture quality is terrific!

I second that!! Thanks for your listening and patience! It's a shame that other station engineers/managers don't participate here on the forum!

I know that criticism can hurt sometimes... but it does help the ratings! ;)

Originally posted by Ratman
I second that!! Thanks for your listening and patience! It's a shame that other station engineers/managers don't participate here on the forum!

I know that criticism can hurt sometimes... but it does help the ratings! ;)
Since Gunnar has left I will try to answer your questions/comments. It always helps to hear what others see.

Het, Tveng, any chance you guys can get WPHL-DT listed on the Directtv guide? When I scan I do not pick up your signal. I do detect 57 and that works fine. I do not want to rescan as I have lost 57 that way. I do not detect KYW on the scan either but get the signal rock solid as the channel is in the Direct TV guide. I have a large hill in front of my house which really blocks UHF reception. I do occasionally get WPVI but never Fox or WCAU. I get WCAU. WPVI and WHYY off the cable. I am sure were WPHL listed in the gide on my Panasonic box, it will find the signal and generate a picture. Thanks. Until then, I will have to wait till you get on Comcast, whenever that will be. I know there are talks going on.

I second JWhip's guide point-- You have to switch over to the analog channel in order to see the guide. The guide for 17-1 always says "Regular Schedule".

Originally posted by JWhip
Het, Tveng, any chance you guys can get WPHL-DT listed on the Directtv guide? When I scan I do not pick up your signal. I do detect 57 and that works fine. I do not want to rescan as I have lost 57 that way. I do not detect KYW on the scan either but get the signal rock solid as the channel is in the Direct TV guide. I have a large hill in front of my house which really blocks UHF reception. I do occasionally get WPVI but never Fox or WCAU. I get WCAU. WPVI and WHYY off the cable. I am sure were WPHL listed in the gide on my Panasonic box, it will find the signal and generate a picture. Thanks. Until then, I will have to wait till you get on Comcast, whenever that will be. I know there are talks going on.

I will look into this and find out what can be done. I know we are not feeding WPHL-DT to anybody right now. If direct tv is sending it they are getting it from off air antenna.

TVeng, I don't expect DirectTV to carry Wphl-Dt but they do have KYW-DT, WPVI-DT, WCAU-DT, WHYY-DT and WTXF-DT in their guide, so you do not have to scan the antenna feed to get their frequencies into the box's memory. THey do not carry any of these channels on their system but when I watch KYW-DT for instance, they have the CBS logo in the banner and the program I am watching. Thanks again.

Can someone summarize for me the events that have taken place with Philly Digital Channels in the past year?
The reason I ask is I've been forced to watch Balitmore channels for two years while Philly sorts things out (I could only receive two Philly channels). I want to come back to Philly channels soon. No rotor..and I don't want one.

dp

A little background on why some programs have black bars on the left and right side of the picture... and some don't.
All commercial Philadelphia TV stations only use a High Definition DTV encoder for broadcasting 24-hours a day. WHYY has both a Standard Definition and a High Definition encoder. WHYY uses the Standard Definition decoder during the day and is currently retransmitting their Channel 12 signal. Because they are using a Standard Definition encoder, your DTV receiver and/or TV can change the picture to fill the screen. In the evening WHYY is using their High Definition encoder, the same as all the Philadelphia commercial TV stations, and retransmitting PBS's HD programming. Because the commercial TV stations are always using a High Definition encoder, when the program is not HD & 16:9, then the HD encoder upconverts the 4:3 programming so that the HD encoder can broadcast the signal. This upconverting adds the black bars on the left and right side of the screen. It's basically telling your receiver that the programming is HD & 16:9. However, to maintain the 4:3 aspect ratio, the black bars need to be added. In summary, because the commercial stations only use an HD encoder, if the programming is not HD/16:9, then you're going to get black bars on the left & right. And you won't be able to trick your DTV receiver into stretching the picture because it already thinks it's getting a 16:9 picture. If TV stations wanted to, they could stretch the 4:3 picture to 16:9, or any variation there of, before broadcasting through the HD encoder. This could fill your screen, but the aspect ratio would be messed up and not pleasing to watch.
Hoepfully this answers a few questions.

Originally posted by Joe_R
Can someone summarize for me the events that have taken place with Philly Digital Channels in the past year?
The reason I ask is I've been forced to watch Balitmore channels for two years while Philly sorts things out (I could only receive two Philly channels). I want to come back to Philly channels soon. No rotor..and I don't want one.

Sure: cbs (3-1), nbc (10-1), abc (6-1), FOX (29-1, pbs (whyy 12-1), upn (57-1) and wb (17-1) are now all on the air with digital transmissions now.

All of the stations transmitters are located in roughly the same area in the Roxborough section of Philadelphia.

So you should be able to get all of the above if you point your antenna towards Roxborough. WHYY (PBS) has a pretty weak signal, so you might have a tough time with them (they also sit low on the tower).

Eric

Originally posted by mpg
A little background on why some programs have black bars on the left and right side of the picture... and some don't.
All commercial Philadelphia TV stations only use a High Definition DTV encoder for broadcasting 24-hours a day. WHYY has both a Standard Definition and a High Definition encoder. WHYY uses the Standard Definition decoder during the day and is currently retransmitting their Channel 12 signal. Because they are using a Standard Definition encoder, your DTV receiver and/or TV can change the picture to fill the screen. In the evening WHYY is using their High Definition encoder, the same as all the Philadelphia commercial TV stations, and retransmitting PBS's HD programming. Because the commercial TV stations are always using a High Definition encoder, when the program is not HD & 16:9, then the HD encoder upconverts the 4:3 programming so that the HD encoder can broadcast the signal. This upconverting adds the black bars on the left and right side of the screen. It's basically telling your receiver that the programming is HD & 16:9. However, to maintain the 4:3 aspect ratio, the black bars need to be added. In summary, because the commercial stations only use an HD encoder, if the programming is not HD/16:9, then you're going to get black bars on the left & right. And you won't be able to trick your DTV receiver into stretching the picture because it already thinks it's getting a 16:9 picture. If TV stations wanted to, they could stretch the 4:3 picture to 16:9, or any variation there of, before broadcasting through the HD encoder. This could fill your screen, but the aspect ratio would be messed up and not pleasing to watch.
Hoepfully this answers a few questions.

The question is, why is 4:3 content (non-HDTV content) transmitted using the HD encoder? Since it is 4 x 3 and not HDTV, use the SD decoder for that content (so we can fill the screen easily) and switch to the HD encoder only for HDTV broadcasts (HDTV content). Wouldn't that be the best of both worlds? Do you lose anything with 4 x 3 programming when an SD encoder is used (or do you gain anything when 4 x 3 programming is tranmsitted with an HD encoder)? If not, use the SD for 4 x 3 and the HD for HDTV.

Or is there any way that the HD encoder can be set to NOT transmit black bars and not stretch the 4 x3 material?

By the way, you can (at least with my set top box), fill the screen with 4 x 3 content by "lying" to the set top box in the set up area and saying that you have a 4 x 3 television. That option is not optimal though as you then have to change it back for HDTV programming.

Eric

Originally posted by caesar1
Sure: cbs (3-1), nbc (10-1), abc (6-1), FOX (29-1, pbs (whyy 12-1), upn (57-1) and wb (17-1) are now all on the air with digital transmissions now.

All of the stations transmitters are located in roughly the same area in the Roxborough section of Philadelphia.

So you should be able to get all of the above if you point your antenna towards Roxborough. WHYY (PBS) has a pretty weak signal, so you might have a tough time with them (they also sit low on the tower).

Eric

Ok, what about signal strength? Are ABC, NBC and Fox at full power now?
I used to get 80-90 with CBS. ABC was rather weak. PBS had severe multipath. NBC was not obtainable. Fox was sporadic, mostly not. Now, this was a year ago. So I guess at that time they were on different towers. Should I expect a CBS grade signal now from the other stations? I remember CBS would come in from a table top antenna, it was such a good signal.
Maybe I'll have to get up on the roof this weekend and give it a try.

Originally posted by Joe_R
Ok, what about signal strength? Are ABC, NBC and Fox at full power now?
I used to get 80-90 with CBS. ABC was rather weak. PBS had severe multipath. NBC was not obtainable. Fox was sporadic, mostly not. Now, this was a year ago. So I guess at that time they were on different towers. Should I expect a CBS grade signal now from the other stations? I remember CBS would come in from a table top antenna, it was such a good signal.
Maybe I'll have to get up on the roof this weekend and give it a try.

As far as I know, all stations are at the full power they are allotted at this time. With PBS being weak in that regard. UPN and WB are on the new candelabra tower. FOX is supposed to be moving to that tower. I don't think ABC, CBS or NBC changed towers.

NBC has a somewhat weaker signal than ABC and CBS. But you should have no problems with a good outdoor antenna for all stations -- except for perhaps PBS. I have problems with an indoor antenna on some stations due to multi-path (PBS particularly)-- and I'm only 4 miles from Roxborough.

Eric

Regarding 4:3 & 16:9 programming....
It's all about the cost to start up DTV transmissions. It costs more to have a Standard Definition encoder along with a High Definition encoder. Why spend the money for both when you can upconvert and broadcast all programming from just the High Definition encoder.

Fox will not be on the new tower with UPN and WB, NBC is also on that tower and should be broadcasting from their at 1 megawatt by the end on this month. Fox will be on another tower hopefully by the spring, also at 1 megawatt.

Originally posted by JWhip
Fox will not be on the new tower with UPN and WB, NBC is also on that tower and should be broadcasting from their at 1 megawatt by the end on this month. Fox will be on another tower hopefully by the spring, also at 1 megawatt.


So right now, we have on the new tower:
WPN
WB
NBC
CBS
ABC
And Fox will get their own tower later next year?

Is this correct?

Originally posted by Joe_R
So right now, we have on the new tower:
WPN
WB
NBC
CBS
ABC
And Fox will get their own tower later next year?

Is this correct?

Well................almost. ;) CBS and ABC will stay where they are. WB, UPN and NBC will be on the new tower (with NBC moving from their existing location, and bumping up the power from ~ 115 kw to 1 megawatt). FOX will move to another tower later next year and also move to full power.

When are the sixers games and flyers games going to be in hd, i thought half of their games were supposed to be in HD this year.

I believe that Comcast SportsNet goes HD in January 2003. So that's 1/2 the games right there. :)

EDIT:

I also believe that the All-Star Game (Hockey) is in HD (I think that's on ABC, but don't quote me on that). And the playoffs are in HD, also.

I don't watch Basketball, so I don't know about the Sixers.

Originally posted by snooplsm
When are the sixers games and flyers games going to be in hd, i thought half of their games were supposed to be in HD this year.

Right now, NONE of their "Over the Air" games will be HD. It's only their games that are shown on cable (Comcast Sportsnet) that will be HD.

The sixers are going in hd when the flyers go. Its the same stadium so they aren't going to be moving any equipment. And when i heard that half the games were in HD, it might of been 1/3 since only the home games are going to be in HD.

Comcast Sportsnet will start broadcasting select Sixers and Flyers games in February 2003. There will be @ 22 games in total between the two teams broadcasted in HD. Comcast has another sports channel in Baltimore (it was Home Team Sports) and the two areas will be sharing one production truck for HD broadcasts, going back and forth between Philly and Balt/Washington.

Thanks to Neil Hartman, Comcast Sportsnet for the inside scoop.

HDTV4all is correct. The gaames were to start in January 2003 but have been pushed back to early February so less games that they had hoped. Comcast must be having trouble training their people to operate the equipment as they have it now so I am not sure of the reason for the delay. They have already archieved profile and the like for insertion into their broadcasts. This was done back in September, at least for the Flyers.

Anyone hear anything new on NBC moving to the new tower? I know it was supposed to be the end of this month. Does anyone have a more firm timing? I've been checking, and re-scanning just about every day now, but nothing for me (I can't get NBC where they are now). :(

Thanks and sorry for the persistance on this, but I really want my NBC! ;)

Anyone hear anything new on NBC moving to the new tower? I know it was supposed to be the end of this month. Does anyone have a more firm timing? I've been checking, and re-scanning just about every day now, but nothing for me (I can't get NBC where they are now). :(

Thanks and sorry for the persistance on this, but I really want my NBC! ;)

If I remember correctly, the engineer there said it would be done by the end of the year but could not be more specific.

NBC should be operational at the new tower by 11/30.

Thanks JWhip,
I noticed on TitanTV that NBC was not even on their listing, where it usually is for my area (even though I don't get it). Is WCAU-DT down in preparation for moving to the new site, or was it just a TitanTV boo-boo?

Is anyone else experiencing reception problems with FOX? For the past week I've been losing lock on their signal about once every 10 minutes. The singal strength meter on my Sony is at about one bar above half way and then drops to half way when I lose the signal. FOX is the lowest in signal strength of all of the Phil. stations. I don't have any reception problems with WHYY even though it is the lowest powered station.

Calabs, I can't comment on whether NBC-10 is still broadcasting OTA as I can't get them that way (yet?) due to terrain issues. I am hopeful I will at their new height and 1 megawatt signal. They are on the cable and Comcast takes a direct fiber feed for that.

Johnr0836 wrote:

Is anyone else experiencing reception problems with FOX? For the past week I've been losing lock on their signal about once every 10 minutes. The singal strength meter on my Sony is at about one bar above half way and then drops to half way when I lose the signal. FOX is the lowest in signal strength of all of the Phil. stations. I don't have any reception problems with WHYY even though it is the lowest powered station.

I'm also in WestWindsor and have had problems receiving Fox Phila. lately - it locks but pixelates too often to watch comfortably. It might just be a combination of signal attenuation from a lot of rain the past several days, and the low transmitting power from 29-1. Since I just repaired the wiring for my antenna-rotor, I re-directed the antenna to NYC and receive Fox5-1 just fine. In fact Fox5 is sharing a transmitter with channel 9 so 5-2 carries the NY-UPN-9 station (albeit both must broadcast SD). An added benfit is I can now watch my Giants instead of those dastardly Eagles! :p

Hi everyone. I'm alittle new at repling but I've been doing alot of reading in this site for awhile now. I'm currently looking into buying a STB and an OTA .I live about 7miles east of phila, Maple Shade,NJ .In buying an OTA is it better to buy a higher gain antenna or just buy one that I only need to do the job?Would it be good to have a pre-amp or rotor ?I appreciate all advise,Thanks.

Where you are with a direct line of site and flat terrain, you have no need for a pre-amp. Probably any decent UHF antenna will do for you.

Hello, everyone!

I've recently purchased a digital tuner (Samsung SIR-T165), which arrived last Monday, so I am joining you on the frontiers of DTV. This thread has been very informative in explaining why I have been receiving all of the local OTA digital channels except WCAU (NBC). I'm looking forward to receiving their signal when their new transmitter comes online.

In case you are curious, I live in Center City (a bit Southwest from Rittenhouse Square) and have a rooftop antenna (no cable, no satellite). My TV is a recent HDTV model (Sony 34" widescreen: 34XBR800 ).

I have a question about the sound portion of the digital broadcasts. I understand that digital TV stations are CAPABLE of broadcasting Dolby Digital 5.1 signals. However, so far I have not received any 5.1 audio (as far as I can tell).

Can anyone say whether the local Philly OTA digital channels are broadcasting Dolby Digital 5.1? I AM successfully getting Dolby Digital 2.0 as appropriate (PCM digital on the analog channels), but I cannot tell whether I am not getting 5.1 because of a problem with my digital tuner (or other configuration), or whether there is no 5.1 signal present to receive so far.

I do have my digital STB configured for Dolby Digital 5.1 and I have my STB connected with a digital (optical) cable to my receiver. My receiver has an indicator that lights up when Dolby Digital 5.1 signals are processed (e.g., from the DVD player).

Thanks to anyone who can shed some light on this issue.

Only ABC (WPVI) broadcasts in dolby digital 5.1 in the Philadelphia area. Every show that I have seen on ABC that is HDTV, my dolby digital 5.1 indicator light comes on on my receiver. Not every show utilizes the surround speakers though. Mainly the ABC movies that are in HDTV (like A Bug's Life, a few weeks ago).

Eric

Thanks, caesar1.

Naturally, a few hours after posting my message, I was flipping around the digital stations and noticed that the Dolby 5.1 indicator came on for the first time since I hooked up my HDTV tuner. The channel was WPVI, and they were broadcasting the film "Jingle All the Way."

If there is only one channel broadcasting 5.1 in our area so far, I'm glad it's ABC, since I was looking forward to the Paul McCartney concert on Wednesday night. I assume (hope) that it will be broadcast in 5.1. So what if he's a dinosaur. So am I!

Thanks for the response.

WCAU-DT NBC was down Saturday night, but back on Sunday. Maybe they moved or were testing.

Hopefully, they will be up and running at the new location and power by 11/30 as estimated.

Originally posted by MSmith
WCAU-DT NBC was down Saturday night, but back on Sunday. Maybe they moved or were testing.

I've been checking (rescanning) Channel 10 and 67 every night. So far nothing from E. Brunswick. I'm still a little puzzled as to why TitanTV has dropped NBC from the list of digital stations in my area. I always used to get the listing. :confused:

Alright, here goes....philly summary and questions!
all info according to fcc website.

Antenna 1 @ 40d2m33s, 75d14m33s
-------------------------------------------------
CBS(KYW) @ 770 kW at 440m above sea level
**ABC(WPVI) @ 500 kW at 456m a.s.l.


Antenna 2 @ 40d2m30s, 75d14m11s
-------------------------------------------------
WB(WPHL) @ 500 kW at 419m a.s.l.
UPN(WPSG) @ 250 kW at 462m a.s.l.
**NBC(WCAU) @ 560 kW at 441m a.s.l.
??PBS(WYBE) @ 500 kW at 408m a.s.l.
??PBS(WHYY) @ 337 kW at 323m a.s.l.


Antenna 3 @ 40d2m26s, 75d14m19s
-------------------------------------------------
**FOX(WTXF) @ 1000 kW at 345m a.s.l.


**I think these are not actually on the towers yet, soon to come!!
??Not sure if these are at full power yet or even on the designated tower yet!!


I'm in Egg Harbor, NJ, about 50 miles from the towers and i'm getting the following on my t151 w/ roof mounted radio shack uhf antenna and 10dB signal amp.

CBS with 8 bars
UPN with 5 bars
WB with 4 bars
breakouts are minimal to non-existent!


QUESTIONS:

Why am I not receiving ABC right now...is it running at full power on the antenna shown on the FCC website?

If not already, when will the following stations be up and running at full power on the FCC designated antennas? FOX, PBS, NBC, ABC

Fox is not at 1 megawatt. They are at 300kw and won't be at one megawatt until they are up at their new location in the spring. ABC is not at full power due the possible interference with channle 65 in New Jersey. I do not know when PBS will be at theur full power allotment. Also, NBC will be at one megawatt, not 560 kw. I ws told by their engineer three weeks ago that, weather permitting, they would be on at their new tower with UPN and WB as of 11/30. Have not heard anything since.

JWhip, are you currently receiving NBC WCAU's digital broadcast up in Wayne? I cannot tune it in down here in Center City, but I get all of the other digital channels, loud and clear.

WCAU has been assigned to channel 67, correct? I hope you will post here if you become aware of any changes to their signal. Thanks!

No Tim, I do not. I only get WCAU-DT via Comcast cable. Due to terrain problems, I can only get KYW and WPSG, not surprisong given that they are channels 26 and 32 on the UHF band. WCAU-DT is at 67. I do not have to scan for it as it is in the Direct TV guide. I check it every so often and will let you know if I can pick it up. At 1 megawatt at their height, I should be able to pick them up as should everyone else who cannot now. Same should be true for Fox 29 as they are on 42. They need more height for me to get them.

I'm just 4 miles from the Roxborough antenna farm -- I live in Lafayette Hill, PA. With a radioshack indoor antenna attached to a Samsung T151 set top box, I could not get NBC (WCAU) -- with some rare brief exceptions.

I recently had an outdoor antenna installed (Channel Master 3023) -- probably overkill for only 4 miles -- but now get all of the local digital stations (including WCAU) with no problems.

The outdoor antenna install cost me $200.00 -- but I think it was worth it.

Eric

I'm in Chestnut Hill, about 3 miles from the farm. Anyone around with reception experience for my neighborhood?

Caesar:

I also have a rooftop antenna with a rotor (on top of a three story row house) and receive all of the other stations with a strong signal, including Fox.

Have you (or anyone else) tried pointing your antenna Northeast to see if you could tune in any of the NYC stations? There are several broadcasting from the top of the Empire State Building. (Several other digital transmitters were lost in the twin towers tragedy.) From our area, it might be possible to receive 44 (WWOR Fox) or 56 (WCBS).

I have not been able to tune in anything from NYC or northern New Jersey so far, but I have gotten a couple of digital channels from Atlantic City: channel 44 (independent) and 49 (Telemundo). There does not seem to be any programming on either that makes is worth turning around the antenna, though.

Does anyone know if there are any digital stations on the air yet from Reading or Allentown?

WFMZ, channel 69 in on in Reading at UHF 46. So is PBS Wltv at 62.

It's after 11/30 and still no WCAU on the new tower, right? I was hoping to get a nice Thanksgiving weekend gift! :) Anyone know anything about WCAU's move?

Rob

Hi All,

I am in Royersford, PA. I have a Radio Shack yagi on the roof and am currently receiving:

3-1 KYW STRONG Never a problem
6-1 PVI " "
10-1 WCAU Often get a lot of pixelization, sometimes drops.
12-1 WHYY VERY GOOD, Rarely a problem. Stuning albeit repeated shows.
12-4 Great signal. Just a color bar pattern. What is up with that?
17-1 PHL Usually strong. Sometimes drops.
29-1 TXF (Fox) - Very strong. Rarely a problem

Oddly, when the antenna was sitting on a box inside my garage I was getting UPN but not PBS or NBC. I have not seen UPN since the antenna moved outside.

Prior to the Yagi I tried a Terk stick antenna. Waste of time and money out this way.

I am considering a professional install with rotator and a one of those UHF panel style antennas. I suspect I could then pull in Reading and maybe Allentown.

Can anyone recommend a good installer in the Collegeville area? Someone who is willing to get on top of a high roof (higer than I am willing to climb. It is currently on the garage, I want it on top of the house).

Amphicar770:

You can read more about WHYY's digital broadcasts at this link:

http://www.whyy.org/tv12/dtv/index.html

That page also includes a .pdf (Acrobat) file with the current month's schedule of digital programming. 12-1 simulcasts the WHYY analog channel's programming in the morning and afternoon, and then they switch from their standard-definition digital signal to their high-definition digital signal in the evening. Whenever there is no special program scheduled to be broadcast in the evening (see schedule), they run a continuous cycle of short documentary films produced in HDTV as a "demo loop." It's tedious stuff after you have seen it a few times, but it's a great reliable way for us to show off our HDTV tuners to visitors!

One big advantage to digital broadcasting is that the station controlling the channel can split the signal into sub channels. 12-4 is one of those subchannels. (Why it is not 12-2 or 12-3 is a mystery to me.) I actually saw content broadcast on 12-4 when I first got my HDTV tuner. It was probably on November 18 or 19, and the show was some medical education program.

WHYY can potentially lease time on that subchannel to corporate or institutional entities to earn some extra $$ for the station. I've read elsewhere that some PBS digital stations use a subchannel to broadcast PBS Kids shows on a continuous cycle.

I have also not yet gotten a signal on 67 for WCAU (NBC). I realize that the November 30 date must have been a goal rather than a deadline. I hope if anyone here is on friendly terms with the good people at WCAU, you might ask about the status of their new broadcast facility. I for one am looking forward to it greatly!

Originally posted by FDAHLGREN
Johnr0836 wrote:

Is anyone else experiencing reception problems with FOX? For the past week I've been losing lock on their signal about once every 10 minutes. The singal strength meter on my Sony is at about one bar above half way and then drops to half way when I lose the signal. FOX is the lowest in signal strength of all of the Phil. stations. I don't have any reception problems with WHYY even though it is the lowest powered station.

I'm also in WestWindsor and have had problems receiving Fox Phila. lately - it locks but pixelates too often to watch comfortably. It might just be a combination of signal attenuation from a lot of rain the past several days, and the low transmitting power from 29-1. Since I just repaired the wiring for my antenna-rotor, I re-directed the antenna to NYC and receive Fox5-1 just fine. In fact Fox5 is sharing a transmitter with channel 9 so 5-2 carries the NY-UPN-9 station (albeit both must broadcast SD). An added benfit is I can now watch my Giants instead of those dastardly Eagles! :p

FOX is almost unwatchable (from Hamilton). Sunday was the first chance to see the Eagles in "Widescreen", every 5 seconds the pix would break-up. Signal never got above 45. I glad the Superbowl isn't on FOX for a couple of years, it may take that long to get a stonger signal from 'TXF.

Philly Tim,
It looks like the other PBS channels, 12.2 and 12.3 are used by NJN on 43.2 and 43.3 or 80.2 and 80.3. Try these channels.

As for WCAU, it is my weakest signal, but I do get it, however some days are better than others.

Luckily I have Comcast for WCAU.

Last night was the first time I was able to receive WCAU for long stretches of time althought the signal, being in the high 40's, would brake constanly. I am hoping that they were testing their new facilities and were not broadcasting full strength.

Any one has some info on this ?

I scanned for channel 10 and 67 last night, but got nothing. :(

43.3 and 43.4 are the signal from WNJT, which shows up as 52.1 when the HDTV loop is on. I think they have PSIP problems with the subchannels. The transmitter is in Lawrenceville, NJ.
Oddly, I get FOX 29.1 fine in Hamilton with a silver sensor antenna in my family room. Not that it's worth it ....

I'm about 30 miles from the antenna farm and use a CM 3023 with pre-amp as the only way to pick up WCAU. Antenna is on the roofline, pointed through some monster pine trees. Lately, I get fewer drop outs on WCAU than on CBS which is a supposedly stronger signal. It's all very odd and tweaky, this OTA stuff.

I had no signal yesterday, but, tonight, I am getting constant signal from WCAU-DT in the high 40's and low 50's. Right now I am getting Leno in Hi-Def with no signal loss. It's just beautiful !!!

I just don't understand the change. Maybe it's because of the cold ???

Here's to more low temperatures :D

That's rather frustrating, Franzius. I'm closer to the transmitter than you are, have an unobstructed signal path, receive all of the other digital stations clearly, but still get nothing on channel 67. Maybe yours is bigger than mine. (Your antenna, I mean!)

As for weather conditions, I can never remember which conditions favor different broadcast signals. For instance, I think that AM radio travels a lot farther under cloudy conditions for some reasons, but FM signals do better in clear conditions? I don't know how weather affects TV-band signals. I think it was just as cold in Philly last night as in Jersey. :o)

Originally posted by Philly Tim
That's rather frustrating, Franzius. I'm closer to the transmitter than you are, have an unobstructed signal path, receive all of the other digital stations clearly, but still get nothing on channel 67. Maybe yours is bigger than mine. (Your antenna, I mean!)

As for weather conditions, I can never remember which conditions favor different broadcast signals. For instance, I think that AM radio travels a lot farther under cloudy conditions for some reasons, but FM signals do better in clear conditions? I don't know how weather affects TV-band signals. I think it was just as cold in Philly last night as in Jersey. :o)


Philly Tim: Based on where you are, you are probably getting multipath -- which keeps you from getting WCAU. What type of antenna are you using? A Yagi (directional) is better for multipath.

I'm only 4 miles from the antenna farm, but occasionally have problems obtaining PBS (WHYY), I believe due to mulit-path coupled with their weak signal. Once I lock it though, it stays -- but sometimes I have a little trouble locking onto it -- which means I then have to change to another channel and then go back to PBS.

I usually lock onto the other stations within 1 to 2 seconds. PBS can take up to 5 seconds -- sometimes a little longer.

My rooftop antenna is a large Yagi (Channel Master 3023). All the other stations lock up a lot faster than PBS. My signal strength meter (on my Samsung T151) shows 9 curved bars steady for all stations, except for PBS. PBS varies from 5 to 7 bars. 9 bars is really 100% for the Samsunt T151 -- it never goes higher.

Eric

Haven't kept up with this thread for a while. Anyone here using a DirecTV HD receiver? Are you getting the proper schedule/program titles for WB & UPN? I only get "regular schedule" in my DirecTV Guide.

Brajesh,

Same with me. I only get "Regular Schedule" for 17 and 57.
I just sent DirecTV an e-mail about it, but I'm not expecting much.

Same here. That is because WPSG-DT and WPHL-DT, have not been added into the Direct TV guide as is the case with the other digital stations. I have looked into this in the past and have asked a WB-17 engineer to look into it. Expect no response from Direct TV on this issue.

I got an e-mail from DirecTV. They suggested doing a hard reboot, then going into the DirecTV menu and re-doing Initial Setup/Channel List. I did those and did a re-scan - no change.

My office closed due to snow, so I have all day to play with this stuff!

Mike, that will NOT work as neither of these channels is in Direct TV's data base. They must be added to their data base toi get into your guide. Don't waste your time. When they are added, they will appear in your quide without you having to do anything.

There was a posting some where here with a link to a site that had a filter you could add to your coax. so you could cascade amps. This would fix signal problems only if I could find that post.

JWhip - Yeah, I know. But I think DirecTV needed to hear the question. Maybe it'll speed things up.

I spent 45 minutes one day going frpm department to department at Direct TV over this issue and no one had any clue what I was even talking about. All they could keep on saying was that the did not carry Local HDTV stations.

Their latest e-mail - call Tech Support. I might this evening if my cold isn't too bad.

Originally posted by JWhip
Calabs, I can't comment on whether NBC-10 is still broadcasting OTA as I can't get them that way (yet?) due to terrain issues. I am hopeful I will at their new height and 1 megawatt signal. They are on the cable and Comcast takes a direct fiber feed for that.

Has NBC moved to the new tower? I can't tell because I just got a new STB (the new Zenith), and all of a sudden I'm getting NBC, albeit at only 40%. Could it have moved, or am I just getting a better pull-in from the new STB? Can anyone confirm if they've moved?
Thanks!

No NBC for me yet. Would love to try one of those new zeniths to see if I can get more channles with it here.

Originally posted by JWhip
No NBC for me yet. Would love to try one of those new zeniths to see if I can get more channles with it here.

Well, NBC kept cutting out on me all weekend, but at least I'm getting a signal! ;) It's definitly the STB. I've used the DTV1080 as well as their integrated set (C34W23), but got zippo for NBC, not even picking it up as a station. All weekend was less than 35%, so pretty much drop-outs all the time. I guess Zenith's new 4th generation 8-VSP chipset is an improvement over their older one.