Originally posted by Ron Tobin
Mark:

FINALLY - it's copying now. I'm going to try to play it through the Roku, and change the extension to .ts, which is what the Roku requires. I'll post my results when I've viewed the file.

Ron

Phire's sample is intended for PC playback only. He compressed it with the vp6 codec which I doubt is supported by the Roku. I think he just wanted people to compare it against the original .TS file to see if there were fewer glitches.

I'm not sure what he intended to prove with this method. I doubt many of us want to re-compress our recordings just to play them (even if there are no glitches). But maybe he's got something else in mind?

Originally posted by Wizziwig
Phire's sample is intended for PC playback only. He compressed it with the vp6 codec which I doubt is supported by the Roku. I think he just wanted people to compare it against the original .TS file to see if there were fewer glitches.

I'm not sure what he intended to prove with this method. I doubt many of us want to re-compress our recordings just to play them (even if there are no glitches). But maybe he's got something else in mind?

So I found out. The file does not play on the Roku (even after changing the extension to TS) and I have no PC playback programs. So no capability to do any comparison here.

Ron

Yeah I compressed it to VP6 which needs a codec to work in Windows Media Player (on2 is getting standalone players for it I believe too, but thats a different story).

It's true that connoisseurs will not want to recompress their video to have them play back properly, I feel the same way. I guess the good thing is that the videos people have recorded now can be recovered somewhere in the future and that the proper data IS being recorded, it may not be being recorded in the proper fasion so decoders seem to be having trouble with them. I am going to continue testing with other decoders.

Originally posted by Phire
Yeah I compressed it to VP6 which needs a codec to work in Windows Media Player (on2 is getting standalone players for it I believe too, but thats a different story).

It's true that connoisseurs will not want to recompress their video to have them play back properly, I feel the same way. I guess the good thing is that the videos people have recorded now can be recovered somewhere in the future and that the proper data IS being recorded, it may not be being recorded in the proper fasion so decoders seem to be having trouble with them. I am going to continue testing with other decoders.

Try my tip about ATI's Cyberlink and MainConcept. They work okay as long as it's a 24fps film source. Anything interlaced at 29.97 fps seems to cause a weird jitter/blur that makes it hard to watch. This happens with all recordings, not just 169time. You really need a decoder with hardware DXVA acceleration for smooth de-interlacing. I just can't find one that works without pauses on 169time.

Just curious, what programs did you use to convert to VP6? Did you have to convert it to mpeg2 first or is there something that reads .ts files directly? I wouldn't mind re-compressing if it wasn't so much hassle. There's also audio to deal with (which I don't think was in your sample).

Do a Google Search
Resynchronizing Filtered Realtime MPEG2 Transport Stream

You'll find an academic article that describes how timings can affect decoders
by Bin Yu and Klara Nahrstedt

It seems related to this stuff, but it is a bit beyond me. Just trying to help out.

Anyone know if the AVX software upgrades ever brought about the ability to push the AVX status messages out the serial port?

Originally posted by Kirby Baker
Anyone know if the AVX software upgrades ever brought about the ability to push the AVX status messages out the serial port?

Why would you want to do that?

Then I dont need a monitor to watch the status of the AVX, just push the data out the serial port, and run it to another PC's serial port, into a communication program to view the data (terminal window).

FYI---

169Time and JVC 30K and LG LST-3410 DVR = Digital “Glitch-Free” FireWire & DVI Playback w/ frame-accurate editing and “trick-play”

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=388506

Murray, how many different threads did you post this message? So far I've counted four. Usually once is enough. BTW, the link you listed is invalid in each of them.

Also, unless there is new news then this capability to go from the 169time system directly to the 3410a doesn't exist. See the the 3410a thread for more information.

Originally posted by alk3997
Murray, how many different threads did you post this message? So far I've counted four. Usually once is enough. BTW, the link you listed is invalid in each of them.

Also, unless there is new news then this capability to go from the 169time system directly to the 3410a doesn't exist. See the the 3410a thread for more information.

alk3997

I only posted a link (which I fixed) to what I believe is very important info as so many people are struggling with ways to play back 169Time files on devices other than a JVC 30K whose component video output is only so-so PQ compared to a DVI to digital display connection, and, that DVHS is a linear tape based media as opposed to a hard drive with is randomly accessible and non-linear.

Now that the 921 has met the MPAA requirements, it is time to again
ask the HD recording community is it time to put our energy into the only company that has a firewire option, and can make improvements.
So, if the HD community wanted PVR functionality, it could be done.

Dave

Originally posted by h2ofun
Now that the 921 has met the MPAA requirements, it is time to again
ask the HD recording community is it time to put our energy into the only company that has a firewire option, and can make improvements.
So, if the HD community wanted PVR functionality, it could be done.

Dave

Dave

Since you cross-posted the same challenge to HD community who want PVR functionality, I offer my observation here as well:

We would have a PVR solution today if 169Time supported direct-to-LG 3410 recording since the 3410 plays back 169Time streams "glitch-free".

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...20&pagenumber=1

However, since the LG 3410 does not support daisy chaining, so, it will require some new code from 169Time to work.

I do not understand the need.

If we put the hard drives in the avx-1, then we can control our own success.

So, how would the 169time have to change?

Dave

Dave where is the new software. The hell with further products. Please fix the core product now that you have our money.

I think its time to remove the AVX topic from the forum all together.

Its obvious all the company cares about is further sales.
I have been more than patient and polite in asking over and over again about future software and its as if I have the plague. I dont appreciate it at all.

Please tell me why I should let the company use my forum when they cant even respond to my simple request.

Seeing as your so quick to respond to everyone elses request Ill look forward to your reply to mine.

Alan,

I can confirm it. You do have the plague! :D

As for 169time wanting nothing but more sales, if the JVC 30k were obsoleted right now, and no new inventory existed anywhere, then 169time would have a whopping 9 potential people they could market their product to. 8 current ebay auctions, and my spare 30k.

Talk about painting yourself into the proverbial corner!

ALan, the 169time has, and does work for what it supports.
Sure much more than the 921 ever did.

Dave

Alan, as I have said a million times, I have not, and do not work for 16time.
How you continue to think I can speak for them about your question, I will never understand. Most stuff I post is just MY opinion. The only time it is not is when I do FYI, which means I get from Richard. I have zero control on this issue. I am as upset about this as you. He has made me look like a turkey. At least he has never said no, compared to the 921 being promised with firefire, taking peoples money, and getting nothing.

As I have said and said and said, if the product he "supports" does not work, then thats one thing. For folks to ask a company for something they have NEVER supported, is something I guess I will never understand.

So, as before, I have given you my opinion. You have to call Richard if you want a real answer, since I gave up a long time ago trying to explain I have zero control on what he does.

Dave

Alan, I did send your message to Richard. I will post what he comes back with.

dave

FYI

"New software is almost ready for field testing. Policy is not to estimate
shipping until it's going out the door. No new products will be sold until
software is updated.

It is untrue to say "they can't respond to my simple request" since I have
have responded to every communication I've received from Alan very promptly.
" FYi

Dave

Thank you.

Dave thank you.

Dave-

Please refrain from using the 921 problems as a justification for 169Time's issues. The 921 is a DVR product and as an owner of both 169Time D* and E* products as well as the 921, I will inform you that you are way out of line in your comparisons. As a DVR the 921 works well. It records all content I request of it without failure and the result of the recordings are flawless. The operation is speedy and simple. The company has offered several software updates since I have owned it beginning in mid January. While the 169Time products work fairly well, the software improvements take ten times as long as the 921 updates. The recordings from 169Time continue to be laden with micro glitches, and the operation of the system is extremely klutzy. A 169Time system costs nearly double what the 921 does and if you consider the 3 tuner capability of the 921, it costs nearly 6 times the 921.
Yes, I am saddened that the 921 will not have Dishwire as originally promised but lack of that feature does not, in any way hamper it's DVR capability. For you to continue to bash the product is not only without merit by comparing it to the 169Time system is just plain ignorant.
Now if you wish to speak of the integrity of the company and their character, then I will agree that Dish Network/E* has left nearly all of us core supporters out to hang on this latest Dishwire support issue. None of us are happy about that.

Alan, it would be a shame to ban 169Time posting questions and answers by the AVS membership, I do believe that Dave has been rather reserved lately as compared with how he used to seek every opportunity to advertise 169Time. I do agree with him that you need to address all questions directly to Richard. I do here and have no problems, calling him on the phone between 10AM-7PM PT. For me, he seems quite accessible. He spent quite a bit of time with me recently on the phone explaining the system and why it will do what it will do WRT 5C so I know he is available.

Hi Don

All good points. My issue was not with Richard even though I have asked him about the software and he will not comment.

Richard does not participate on this forum Dave does and while he says he does not work for the company he does jump into threads (even off topic)to let everyone know about the product and posts inside info from time to time. I have followed his threads in the past and posted right after him asking if he has any info regarding the software that was promised to hit at new years that never came and my posts were never answered and now I see more posts from him about getting a 169 PVR going. I dont think I am out of line in asking for something we've been promised and have been asking for before hearing about another project in the works from the company.
I did get a lot of complaints today from others feeling the same.

Dave did respond to this one and I thanked him. Somehow he has ways of getting info out of Richard that we do not.
My talk with Richard months ago I asked that an update be provided to the forum if anything but once a month to keep everyone informed and to keep the heat down but those reports or customer interaction never took place. With Dave disappearing that did not help.
If the new software allows the AVX to be compatible with other decoders ( thats what we are all looking for and what we've been asking for) I think that will open doors to more sales and consumer support for the product. In the meantime seeing any mention of anything else from 169 does nothing but stir up frustration.

Re: 169time PVR

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by h2ofun
Man, with all the bad luck with the 921, it just is too bad folks did not get behind my effort 6 months ago when I made another push to get the 169time product into a PVR. I just keep being amazed how folks keep thinking the big boys, with the MPAA on their backs, will ever guess us what we want. If people would just put their energy into making a PVR work for the 169time products, rather than talking, writing, etc about Dish, etc., we would have a product today that would be 100% in our control.

It still could happen!

Dave
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Dave

There's no need to re-invent the wheel to get a 169Time PVR.

As soon as Richard releases the next generation of AVX-1 code that makes the 169Time transport streams fully compatible with the Janus Chip Set hardware decoders found in accessDTV and MyHD PCI HDTV PVR cards, as well as the software decoder that comes with the Fusion PCI HDTV PVR card, 169Time will have a large installed base of users able to make a 169Time PVR a ready-made reality.

Since I had a glitched recording problem using a JVC 40K with a 169Time RCA DTC100 & AVX-1 and now only have a JVC 30K on hand, I wanted to ask if anyone has tried, or will now test, recording a OTA HDTV program from a 169Time RCA DTC100 --DIRECTLY-- to a JVC 40K with no AVX-1 in the FireWire loop at all.

fyi

Please refrain from telephoning or emailing 169time for information about software updates or additionally supported set top boxes. It is 169time's policy to not give out this information until the item is actually shipping.

Every inquiry is courteously replied to, but the time it takes to reply subtracts from the available time for software development. Please use the web page and / or forum as a means to get the latest information from 169time.

fyi

dave

I've been watching my 169Time tapes over FireWire through an LG 3410 STB because of the stellar decoder and DVI output.

Lately, all my tapes that I have made from D*- RCA DTC100 on HBOHD (ONLY) are glitchy, but, not those from SHOHD, HDNet Movies etc.

I have watched various HBOHD tapes simultaneously on two monitors, one glitchy over DVI from the LG 3410, and, one glitch-free over component from the JVC 30K.

Has the D* HBOHD stream changed in some way?

Originally posted by mkerdman
Since I had a glitched recording problem using a JVC 40K with a 169Time RCA DTC100 & AVX-1 and now only have a JVC 30K on hand, I wanted to ask if anyone has tried, or will now test, recording a OTA HDTV program from a 169Time RCA DTC100 --DIRECTLY-- to a JVC 40K with no AVX-1 in the FireWire loop at all.
I know this isn't what you are asking Murray, but I thought I would throw another data point out there. I have a 169time Dish 6000 HDVR and AVX-1 hooked up to my JVC 30K. Tapes recorded on this setup play fine on my JVC 40K. In another test, I recorded a CBS show, restored it to hard disk using DVHS-tool, then edited the commericals out with HDTV2MPEG and recorded back to the 30K and that tape plays glitch free on my 40K.

I have not yet tried to record directly to the 40K with my setup. I have other priorities right now, and one of them is to get hard disk recording working well so I don't have to deal with messy timer remotes (I haven't had a lot of time to work on this). I also did a three minute PC playback test using software decoders (Mediamatics HDTV Demuxer + Sonic Cinemaster 1.5 DS filters) and had no problems with that. But it was a short test. I haven't had time to do a more substantial playback test on the PC.

So far, my 169time Dish 6000 setup is working much better than I ever expected it to.

My experience is beginning to make me wonder if the real issue isn't with DTC-100 169time made recordings. That's just speculation on my part Murray since I am relatively new to the 169time way of recording HDTV. But I do have a D-VHS recording from HDnet Movies made with a DTC-100 169time setup and that tape plays fine on the JVC 30K but does not on the 40K. Also, restores of that tape to hard disk have micro stutters every 15 to 30 seconds when played with software decoders.

--Jerome

Originally posted by jsaliga
I I also did a three minute PC playback test using software decoders (Mediamatics HDTV Demuxer + Sonic Cinemaster 1.5 DS filters) and had no problems with that.

My experience is beginning to make me wonder if the real issue isn't with DTC-100 169time made recordings. That's just speculation on my part Murray since I am relatively new to the 169time way of recording HDTV. But I do have a D-VHS recording from HDnet Movies made with a DTC-100 169time setup and that tape plays fine on the JVC 30K but does not on the 40K. Also, restores of that tape to hard disk have micro stutters every 15 to 30 seconds when played with software decoders.

--Jerome

Jermoe

The DTC100 worked fine on HBOHD until recently, and, the other HD channels record/play fine now.

I had glitches with a DTC100 and a 40K which I returned.

Where did you get the Mediamatics HDTV Demuxer?

Murray,

I sent you a PM.

--Jerome

I have perfect playback with this combination:

6000 --> AVX1 --> PC

No DVHS in the loop.

I use the Roku for playback, and all stations play back glitch free. The recordings will not playback glitch free on PC's with MyHD and Hipix cards, however. Only the Roku plays them back perfectly. At $300 for the Roku, it is a very cost effective HD playback device.

While the Roku does work I wish they would use something other than ATI for its video output. It suffers from that dam chroma delay. Once you see it for the first time ( it helps to have a FP device with a large screen) it will drive you up a wall.
According to Stacey the newer G force has fixed this. ATI has not.

Originally posted by KevinYee
I have perfect playback with this combination:

6000 --> AVX1 --> PC

No DVHS in the loop.


Kevin:

Have you watched the Fireworks capture, that you sent FTP, several times? The reason I ask, is that I got about 2-3 perfect playbacks, but upon additional times playing back, there were numerous glitches. Doesn't make sense.

It's about a 10 minute piece. Try watching it several times and see if your results are consistent each and every time.

BTW - has anyone determined that having the DVHS in the loop has a direct correlation to poor captures?

I only watched it once. I have a hard enough time watching all my recordings one time, let alone multiple times. I've probably only watched about 10% of all my HD recordings. How ridiculous is that?! :)

This is a crazy hobby, or should I say - addiction?

Got an AVX-1, moded 6000 and JVC 30K about a month ago. A strange
problem developed. The boot time and number of CDROM error messages
kept increasing, until yesterday the boot never completed.

I was preparing to sub the CDROM drive, but decided first to try cloning
the CD. The cloning went smoothly, and the copy works quickly and
without errors.

The original had no dirt or scratches, so I suspect my drive and the drive it
was authored on are not aligned compatibly. But the Yamaha drive in
my Amiga seems able to bridge the difference.

Hal

I hate to ask this here, but haven't been able to get a clear concinse answer.

What exactly does the AVX-1 do? Yes, I see statements that it makes premium channels recordable. I see statements that it makes the info on the 1394 understandable to the JVC D-VHS.

Quite frankly, that really doesn't tell me anything.

So again, what does the AVX-1 REALLY do?

Thanks in Advance.

As far as I can tell, AVX-1 acts as an interpretive transcoder, putting through chunks of consistent stream. If anyone else has a better explanation, please ;)

Alan,
I'm not taking up for 169time but there are other threads on the forum that also deal with defective equipment that it seems like the manufacturers are doing nothing about. Look at all the different HD cable box problems for example. What about the LG LST-3410A? Didn't you get one of these also? I would love to have one of these if it worked. I realize LG could care less whether AVS supports their box or not, in fact they probably wish no one was discussing this box here. Try asking LG when they will have their problems fixed with this box.

I understand why this thread is no longer sticky, but isn't free discussion about our equipment the reason for AVS forum?

I have looked for an answer on this thread, but so many posts. I have an RCA DCt100 mod with 169time, and when I try to transfer my recordings from tape to my PC using my Fusion 2 HDTV card, it plays back with a lot of glitches. Sometimes very glitchy, sometimes once every 10 minutes. I have also used DVHSTool(most recent) to restore then I use Fusion player to play back, and same thing. elecard MPEG2 player same as well. Any suggestions.

Try videolan.org and download VLC. It may play your files back properly.

thanks, that does work pretty god. Now, anything that can playback transport streams with AAC audio(I have Fusion 2 HDTV card, but some stuff play back glitchy)? Thanks a lot.

videolan may play aac also.

I don't think VLC will decode AAC. Fusion HDTV card will. MyHD should decode it too.

I experience severe glitching when playing back 169Time-DTC100 / HBOHD / JVC30K tapes through my LG 3410 set top box’s FireWire input and it's DVI output, but, all other DirecTV HD channels recordings are OK when played this way.

The glitching is also present on the LG 3410’s S-Video, RGB and component outputs as well.

These same tapes play perfectly from the JVC 30K component outputs.

Interestingly, the very same 169Time-DTC100 / HBOHD / JVC 30K tapes played from a Panasonic PV-HD1000 through an LG 3410 display the glitching, while all other channel’s 169Time made tapes play perfectly.

Separately, I have read many posts stating that good tapes made on a JVC 30K will not always play properly on a 40K.

Kevin:

Check the videolan.org pages.

At <http://www.videolan.org/streaming/features.html> it lists AAC as part of the "muxer / audio and video format"

Try playing AAC files with videolan and see if it works. I think that it might.

I'll try it out.

Maybe the newest version can decode it.

It does say VLC plays aac files and there is an option in the preferences where you set to decode aac, but when I try playing a file I get the :VLC has encountered a problem and needs to shut down" message. If I convert the file to an mpg with HDTV2mpg, it plays the file with no sound. VLC does work great on 169timed recordings from all other channels, playing them pretty much glitch free, especially HBO stuff.

What is really neat is that VLS (the server) can, according to the web site, serve transport streams. This would mean that we could load the HD files onto a server box and stick it in one room and then serve it to other rooms using VLS. If you use Firewire 800 then you have some long distance options.

The Roku box may already have this option...

If I'm understanding this correctly, I could get my dtc-100 modified from 169Time, record directly to my HTPC, and use VLC for playback. Is this correct?

My hold-up of getting the 169Time mod was that the files couldn't be played back via MyHD (due to the Janus chip), and I didn't want to go the DVHS or Roku route. VLC runs fine on my pc with the .ts streams I've thrown at it, but I just want to make sure I'll be able to accomplish what I want before pulling the trigger this summer.

So far the AVX files only playback using the JVC30K.

I have a server that I currently use to archive all my HD content. I use several playback options and non work with the AVX files.

What makes you think you can get proper playback of the AVX files using a server and eliminating the 30K?
Sorry if Im missing something.

Alan, thanks for commenting. So VLC will NOT play back AVX files, correct? Back to waiting.

Originally posted by taz291819
My hold-up of getting the 169Time mod was that the files couldn't be played back via MyHD (due to the Janus chip), and I didn't want to go the DVHS or Roku route. VLC runs fine on my pc with the .ts streams I've thrown at it, but I just want to make sure I'll be able to accomplish what I want before pulling the trigger this summer.

Its really hit or miss with the MyHD. I have some recordings that will play back perfectly on the MyHD, and some dont. Seems to be no rhyme nor reason to it. I am able to playback almost 99.9% perfectly using Elecard MPEG player though. Others dont seem to be able to reproduce what I have though, so who knows, maybe its just the air up here in Michigan. But now I encode everything to WMV files anyway, so I dont worry about it anymore.

VLC plays back AVX recorded shows without problems on my PC and on my Powerbook.

It is also true that the glitches that I get from my AVX recordings are rare short audio dropouts - maybe two or three in a two hour recording - I don't have the repetitive video / audio glitches that some people have described.

Presumably I could run VLS (not VLC) from a Windows or Linux box and then stream the transport stream data to, say a JVC 30K and then have component out & digital audio via the JVC deck. The point of this would be that I could store lots of transport stream files on the computer.

Now the obvious question is - how do I get the files onto the computer in the first place. Well Apples "DVHSCap" application will let me record from the JVC deck onto a hard drive.

I use a Fusion 2 HDTV card to playback most recordings with AVX-1, except HBO, have started using VLC to play them back pretty much glitch free, also Elecard mpeg2 player works well.

Largo

You say pretty much glitch free. Please elaborate.

Also seeing as most of what I record is HBO is there a reason you do not use this combo for HBO.

Im asking because everything Ive tried does not work 100% & has its trouble so Im expecting if I go through the trouble to buy this card and use these programs based on your experience will I get perfect playback.
Lets say the movie is recorded perfect to tape and I dump to hard drive and playback using your combo will I get perfect repeatable playback.

Thanks!

I get a lot better playback using this combo than using my Fusion HDTV card. Once in a while i might get a little of that green pixelation, buth that is better than the stutter that I experiance when using my Fusion. i would get like 2-3 stutters every 30 seconds. Maybe not 100%, but better than most player's.

Alan,

As a software solution, Elecard MPEG2 Player 2.X and Elecard Decoders 2.X are the best I have seen at SW HD playback of HD transport streams I record with an PCI HDTV DVR card.

I have not tried it with 169Time files as I have not taken the time to dump the tape recordings to a hard drive.

I too am interested in what if anything is different in the D* HBOHD signal that causes glitching only HBO recordings made on a 169Time-DTC100 / HBOHD / JVC30K setup and played back with a different decoder.

I experience severe glitching when playing back 169Time-DTC100 / HBOHD / JVC30K tapes through my LG 3410 set top box’s FireWire input and it's DVI output, but, all other DirecTV HD channels recordings are OK when played this way.

The glitching is also present on the LG 3410’s S-Video, RGB and component outputs as well.

These same HBOHD tapes play perfectly from the JVC 30K component outputs.

What's different with D* HBOHD?

I read somewhere that HBO adds an extra flag or something in the stream, and then D*'s compression of that stream is what causes it to act differently than the other channels. Anyway, I am happy because I found a version of VLC that plays transport streams with AAC audio, it is version 0.7.0. Tried 0.6.2 and it would play the stream, but no audio. newer version shuts down when you try to play it, so those with TS aac, try this version. i will try another file and see if it plays that one as well.

I have tried to eliminate the glitches I've seen on my Dish 6000/AVX1 recordings by rebuilding the transport stream from its elementary streams. I used the following flow:

0. Record a TS file directly from the AVX1 to the PC using the latest DVHSTool Beta.
1. Trim the beginning of the TS file using HDTV2MPEG2 to align the file at a sync boundary.
2. Use Womble MPEG VCR to separate the trimmed file into .mpv and .ac3 elementary streams.
3. Correct AC3 delay.
4. Remux to a program stream using the TMPGenc built in MPEG tools (simple multiplex).
5. Make a transport stream using VLC.
6. Send to D-VHS using VirtualDVHS.

The result is glitchy playback on my favorite hardware MPEG decoders (MyHD, JVC 30k(?), and Samsung T165).

Now, I ran a test file which was recorded from the Dish 5000 modulator through the above steps. The result was perfect playback on the MyHD, JVC 30k and Samsung T165, so I'm confident that TMPGenc is a good PS MUXer and VLC is a pretty good TS encapsulator.

I also ran a short 10 second test on the ES files of an AVX1 recording using Manzanita's MP2TSMS software. I centered the 10 second clip on a known, repeatable glitch. The resulting output had the same glitch appear on the susceptible MPEG decoders.

So, the BIG conclusion I've reached is: the AVX1's MPEG video elementary streams are fundamentally flawed in some way. Some MPEG decoders are tolerant of the flaw (JVC 30k, Mitsubishi HD-5000, Roku, etc.) while other decoders produce glitches (Samsung T165, MyHD).

My next experiment is to MPEG decode and re-encode an AVX1 recording using the DVD2AVI - AVISynth - TMPGenc method that I normally use for DVDs. Fortunately the software MPEG decoder for AVISynth is tolerant of AVX1 files.

-Dylan

the AVX1's MPEG video elementary streams are fundamentally flawed

Someone else with the experience to back this statement said the same thing.
I think you are right. Thats why anything recorded using the AVX does not playback on anything else other than the JVC and even on that its a gamble.

Still no software update. Not even a hint:(

When I purchased my 169time unit more than 1 year ago, I purchased a subscription for software updates at a cost of about $100. I have not even received one update to the software. The company implicitly promised to deliver a service (produce more reliable software and deliver it to my door) but as of yet I have seen no such update. If this update does not occur soon, I will be requesting a refund of the money I spent on this service.

Xfactor

Wow this is the first I heared they are taking extra money for software updates.
What a scam.

Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Xfactor

Wow this is the first I heared they are taking extra money for software updates.
What a scam.

http://www.169time.com/orderform_t3.html

From 169time web site
Optional items

...

________ Fill in $97 for 2 year AVX1 software update subscription


First, they don't seem to be releasing updates. Second, it seems you get the updates regardless of whether you pay the $97. So all that money bought me is PERHAPS a CDR. If I would have known this before, I would have saved myself $97.

Can anyone send me (or direct me to a link) a 10-20 sec AVX1 clip? I would like to try it on my pc just to see if it will play. I don't mind a few glitches every now and then, something like 3 an hour is tolerable for me. Any help would be appreciated.

It seems HBO is the major problem, so a quick clip from that would be great. Thanks again.

I was thinking of doing the same thing, just need a clip to test it out on my system first.

taz291819 - check your PM.

Did you guys see THIS? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=404058)

It's about time someone else steps up and offers something that can make glitch free recordings.

Snooze you loose!

This is absolutely great news!!! Can't wait to hear more.

Is it too much to ask to have an STB capable of recording to D-VHS without use of a computer?

Did the 5000+HDmod produce glitch free recordings? And did the recorded transport streams play corretly on anything?

TW

Originally posted by jrichards
It's about time someone else steps up and offers something that can make glitch free recordings.

Snooze you loose!

The original Panny system connected to the E*5000/HDTV mod. suffered one type of glitch early on that was determined to be an issue with the rev number of the Dolby decoder chip in some receivers. The problem was resolved by replacing the Dolby decoder with a later spec rev number. The cheapest and easiest way to do this was to add the low cost Techniques Dolby decoder and feed analog audio from it to your receiver's power amp. There were no video glitches.

Later on the JVC30K came out and it was extremely problematic with many video glitches to simple complate failure. About the same time the MItsubushi 2000 was introduced but it was extremely trouble free. It's main problem was it did not have a decoder and one needed to make available a 1394 input device just to watch the Mits Playback. The Panny system connected to the MIts did not work. The MIts connected to the early HDVR's from 169Time worked very well and with the 5000/HDTV modulator, produced the most glitch free, perfect recordings on DVHS tape todate. The downside of this system, even back then, was that the Mits connection to the HDVR from 169Time was a real kludge to get connection.
Later, when the AVX for SAat HD channel recording was offered, the micro glitches and other AVX type problems surfaced. Those who used the JVC 30K seemed to have more issues probably because their 30K was generating it's own set of problems on top of the 169Time AVX issues.

Bottom line- IMO, there has never been a perfect solution to DVHS recording. There have only been people who claim to have perfect experiences with some systems, most likely because they are new to it or they choose to ignore some problems.

Originally posted by Don Landis
The original Panny system connected to the E*5000/HDTV mod. suffered one type of glitch early on that was determined to be an issue with the rev number of the Dolby decoder chip in some receivers. The problem was resolved by replacing the Dolby decoder with a later spec rev number. The cheapest and easiest way to do this was to add the low cost Techniques Dolby decoder and feed analog audio from it to your receiver's power amp. There were no video glitches.



Don:

The Theta Digital Casablanca 2 has been experiencing problems decoding the Dolby Digital 5.1 bitstream from the HS10-250, not all CB2's have trouble, but many do.

Can you think of a work around the DD 5.1 decoder chip in the HS10-250 to bypass it?

Otherwise the CB2 has to go back to Theta for 3 weeks to modify one of the boards

Thanks,

Lon

Originally posted by dahester
My next experiment is to MPEG decode and re-encode an AVX1 recording using the DVD2AVI - AVISynth - TMPGenc method that I normally use for DVDs. Fortunately the software MPEG decoder for AVISynth is tolerant of AVX1 files.

-Dylan

Dylan,

Slightly OT, what is your method to take HD transport streams to a DVD-R?

I recall that the Theta Casablanca was one of those that had issues with the Panny system. Maybe Alan Gouger can provide details as he was selling them back then. The system involved pulling the FO audio from your receiver to the Techniques decoder. Then the output of each of the DD5.1 channels in decoded analog audio to your TCB's Direct input to the preamp. Nearly all receivers have this option. That is how we did it and it works well.

If you need a Techniques decoder I have one sitting on the shelf as part of my original Panny system. This would certainly bypass the TCB's own Dolby circuitry.

Originally posted by thurstonw
Did the 5000+HDmod produce glitch free recordings? And did the recorded transport streams play corretly on anything?

TW

As far as I am concerned - absolutely. I have tons of 5000/mod recordings that play back perfectly on my HiPix card. Not a glitch, dropout, or anything wrong with them.

lol...you can tell eyes get tired at night - I originally read your post to say you had 5000 recordings, lol.

Was wondering what you had stored that many shows/programs on :D

I have had the AVX-!, DTC 100 and JVC 30k for almost 2 years now, and I get good clean, almost glitch-free recordings. For me, it is more than an adequate means of time shifting. The best thing about the system is 169time (Richard), because he is always available to solve a problem, over the phone, and take as much time as you need to walk you through a trouble-shooting. This is what he did for me today when the Avx-1 appeared to fail and showed a 'giving up' message. It is now working perfectly again, because he knows how to 'fix' it. Try to get that expertise from the makers of HDTivo or any other new means of recording! THANKS!

Is anybody on this thread using a Sony SAT-HD200 or Sony SAT-HD300 DirecTV STB W/ DVI?

I have a Sony 300 w/DVI. I originally tried to connect it via DVI to my Pio 5040 plasma when the 300 first came out, with no luck. There was a long running thread with others having the same problem. I gave up, and now have the 300 connected to my Mits 65" HD via component outs. I have my new HD DirecTivo connected to my plasma now.

Was interesting I posted this response in Alans thread about this new magic solution coming.

fyi
The developer should contact 169time and consider a joint marketing or some other advantageous business arrangement.
fyi.

Looks like he deleted it? Wonder why? Is there something to hide?
If it were real, is there something wrong that the small fish work together for our common goal? Or is it really smoke and mirrors trying to play games with 169time as some have suggested?

Just wondering?

Dave (Mr Black and White)

Looks like he deleted it? Wonder why? Is there something to hide?

Dave, I did not delete anything. I saw your post and was going to edit it and leave the basic question intact and remove the mention of pricing. It was a marketing post and thats not allowed. Looks like someone got to it before me.

Please note: this is not my company, so all remarks should be addressed to the "mystery company" and not me. There will be an announcement from them direct soon.

If their product does indeed work as described I dont see why they would need any additional outside source or partners if they are in a position to deliver.
In the past help was offered direct to another company to help further progress but they were not interested and these people were turned away or never replied to.
Thats a shame because we all could have been enjoying a better product right along and that would have left no need for someone else to see an opportunity to come along with a competing product.


In this fast pace of ever changing technology nothing last forever. Competition is good for everyone and pushes the envelope. I have been enjoying my 169 time for years. Although not perfect it has been the only solution.
I have voiced my personal needs beyond what this product delivers for so long "years" and it never got addressed so I personally welcome this new product with open arms because it fits my personal needs. I am not speaking for anyone but myself.
I dont want to get into a personal debate as to which product is better. Everyone will now have a choice and can make that decision on their own based on their own needs.

As far as smoke and mirrors they have sent some of their files to someone competent to test and indeed the streams proved to playback perfect using a variety of decoders. Hopefully we will hear more good news soon.

Sure do not understand why it always seems to be a fight for some about 169time. In MY opinion, their market is not "decoders", but a product for the more general population, which means as dumb computers as possible.

Looks like their is at least one very clean solution you can buy TODAY.
Disch 6000, avx-1 and the 30K. Pretty simple solution.

Dave

Wow, Ken will not even allow me to answer Alans comments.

I have never, and do not work for 169time. Search how many times I have had to say this. Now, if someone has any evidence that says differently, please post the facts.

Whats great about 169time is they are 100% legal.

Dave

Reading your reactions in "all" the threads you are not very convincing when you tell us all you do not work for 169time or have any business relationship with them.

Competition drives competition and this is a good thing for the end user. With all your praising about how you care about helping people I would think you would welcome this new product and see it as a good thing.

Looks like their is at least one very clean solution you can buy TODAY.
Disch 6000, avx-1 and the 30K. Pretty simple solution.

That makes me and Im sure others who spent hard earned money with 169time glad to hear this, seeing as I bought the bel 6k and direct.
Its also nice we all found this out at our expense and time. Some of the guys should be on payroll as they've done someone else's job.


The new product will not be limited to just one receiver and it will not be limited to one decoder. Good things on the horizon:)

I do not want to get caught up in a product A verse product B war.

Theres plenty room for more than one company. If two or more competing companies are doing their job and have a product of value to others then Im sure all will do fine:)

Originally posted by h2ofun
Was interesting I posted this response in Alans thread about this new magic solution coming.

fyi
The developer should contact 169time and consider a joint marketing or some other advantageous business arrangement.
fyi.

Looks like he deleted it? Wonder why? Is there something to hide?
If it were real, is there something wrong that the small fish work together for our common goal? Or is it really smoke and mirrors trying to play games with 169time as some have suggested?

Just wondering?

Dave (Mr Black and White) Once again you are completely wrong.

Alan did not do anything. I deleted another one of your endless comments shilling for 169. Quite frankly, they no longer are going to be tolerated, at least by me.

And as far as 'the small fish working together', you must be kidding, or right out of your mind.

Do not reply.

I tend to agree with Dave on this. While not elegant or omni-compatible, the 169time+JVC30K gear is the most robust, stable platform for recording HD via firewire today. Just read the threads from the cable guys. They have all kinds of issues: 30K/40k compatability, 5C software problems, audio dropouts, some channels won't even record.

Here's a simple challenge to anyone with firewire capability: see if you can record in HD Game 6 of the Western Conference finals, Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals, and Game 1 of the NBA finals.

This would be a good test, one that I suspect few people (other than Dish/169time clients) can accomplish with near perfect audio and video reproduction of all three original broadcasts.

Any takers? Comcast, TWC subscribers with Motorola and SA equipment?

Originally posted by sierrabob
I tend to agree with Dave on this. While not elegant or omni-compatible, the 169time+JVC30K gear is the most robust, stable platform for recording HD via firewire today. Just read the threads from the cable guys. They have all kinds of issues: 30K/40k compatability, 5C software problems, audio dropouts, some channels won't even record.

Here's a simple challenge to anyone with firewire capability: see if you can record in HD Game 6 of the Western Conference finals, Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals, and Game 1 of the NBA finals.

This would be a good test, one that I suspect few people (other than Dish/169time clients) can accomplish with near perfect audio and video reproduction of all three original broadcasts.

Any takers? Comcast, TWC subscribers with Motorola and SA equipment?

Clearly you have selectively read the threads you wanted to as there are just as many people with 169time systems unable to record TNT-HD as there are SA-3250HD cable people.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=406585

If you do a little research, some can and some cannot record TNT-HD with either system - and everyone knows audio drop outs are problems with all JVC 30k's.

There are plenty of 169time customers that still cannot record HBO either. The forums have posts from them all the time. At least the cable customers know the EPN problem causing bugs on copy freely EPN settings has been fixed with the latest Scientific Atlanta upgrade - Less than 60 days after the roll out. Can you say the same for the 169time bugs?

And I dare say there are more people using cable 1394 solutions at this point that 169time has in the field.

Originally posted by HDTVFanAtic
There are plenty of 169time customers that still cannot record HBO either. The forums have posts from them all the time. At least the cable customers know the EPN problem causing bugs on copy freely EPN settings has been fixed with the latest Scientific Atlanta upgrade - Less than 60 days after the roll out. Can you say the same for the 169time bugs?
Cannot record or cannot make good recordings? There's a big difference.

I have a SA3250HD with firewire from Charter cable. I should be getting new firmware later this week. But right now the box is unusable because I get 1 to 3 second audio dropouts about every two minutes or so. So let's not pretend that cable boxes are the ne plus ultra of HDTV recording, because they aren't--at least not for everyone--at least not yet. Sounds a lot like the 169time solution...does it not?

Then there is the issue of the SA3250HD not working at all with my JVC 40K.

There is also an interoperability problem with recordings made from the SA3250HD. I would hate to record a lot of tapes that are married to a specific model of D-VHS deck. Tapes recorded on the JVC 30K will not play on the 40K, they only play on the 30K. At least I don't have that problem with my 169time setup.

And I dare say there are more people using cable 1394 solutions at this point that 169time has in the field.
And I dare say that people have been using 169time setups a helluva lot longer than they have cable boxes with firewire. So what's your point? I think people should reasonably expect cable box issues to be worked out in relatively short order. Cable operators and equipment vendors have far more resources to commit to technical issues. Let's not compare a one man shop to huge corporations with deep pockets.

The truth is that people get differing results for reasons that are not always made clear on this forum. Speculation is easy to come by, but cold hard technical facts are much more rare.

I'm very confident the issues with my 3250HD will be worked out...if I weren't then I wouldn't have hung on to it. I am also confident that Richard will improve the AVX-1 software. I'm pretty happy with my Dish 6000 169time setup as is, but I understand that other people are not.

--Jerome

Originally posted by HDTVFanAtic
Clearly you have selectively read the threads you wanted to as there are just as many people with 169time systems unable to record TNT-HD as there are SA-3250HD cable people.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=406585

If you do a little research, some can and some cannot record TNT-HD with either system - and everyone knows audio drop outs are problems with all JVC 30k's.

There are plenty of 169time customers that still cannot record HBO either. The forums have posts from them all the time.

I actually made several posts to that thread myself. Although I wasn't quite clear from your post what gear you were using for TNT-HD recording, you did report no audio from your JVC30K rca outputs. TNT-HD transmitted the WCF games in 5.1DD. The sound was really well produced, but only plays back in 5.1DD through the optical digital out of the JVC.

I just recorded game 6 WCF from TNT-HD. Excellent. Those 169time people having problems with TNT-HD and HBO are trying to do AVX to PC recording. As Dave said, the "dumb" computer solution, a Dish 6000/AVX/JVC30K combo, works well for firewire recording. Recording and playing back on PC and other DVHS decks raise troublesome issues, but these problems are separate from the basic solution available to low tech hobbyists.

My challenge still stands: can cable HD subs record via firewire 1080i and 720p TNT-HD, ESPN-HD, and ABC-HD broadcasts with quality good enough that they would be willing to show their friends?

Hi Bob

Glad to hear you can successfully record TNT HD with the 169 time. Soon there will be a second option that also records this with no trouble but with the addition
of not being dependent on the JVC 30k decoder for playback.

These are good times coming to those who want to archive their own personal library.
The more options the better.

Competition is good for everyone. Already sense the announcement of the new product we finally after years of asking see a announcement mentioning some sort of update from 169time.

Things will only get better and know people have a choice.

Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Hi Bob

Glad to hear you can successfully record TNT HD with the 169 time. Soon there will be a second option that also records this with no trouble but with the addition
of not being dependent on the JVC 30k decoder for playback.


I depend on the JVC30K for something quick and reliable. But I do use DHSTool and really prefer recording to a laptop and playing back HD recordings when I'm on the road. I'm therefore limited to software solutions to HD playback on a PC.

Will the new option be good for my needs?

Bob

I depend on the JVC30K for something quick and reliable. But I do use DHSTool and really prefer recording to a laptop and playing back HD recordings when I'm on the road. I'm therefore limited to software solutions to HD playback on a PC.

Yes it will:)

Hey Alan, any idea on the price?

Thanks!

Nick

Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Yes it will:)

Alan, you da man!

Alan,

Any time frame on when this new product may be announced? Days? Weeks? Months?

Steve

Steve

Ill leave that up to the manufacture to announce. I personally have no idea but I think we should get their announcement that should cover that within a few weeks or sooner.

Originally posted by sierrabob
I actually made several posts to that thread myself. Although I wasn't quite clear from your post what gear you were using for TNT-HD recording, you did report no audio from your JVC30K rca outputs.

Not that this belongs here, but another link inside that thread points to another thread where it explained it all. The SA3250HD outputs audio fine for me on all channels to the JVC 30k but TNT-HD. It does output audio to the PC via CapDVHS. This is true for everyone that has tried this on my MSO.

In other markets its works fine with the above combo. It's clearly a JVC30k-SA3250HD interface issue on the MSO side (Outside chance that it's a JVC 30k Firmware issue, but doubtful).

Now I have the Senior tech at a MSO where it doesn't work talking with the MSO with the techs at another co-managed MSO where it does work - thus comparing every setting on the headend.

My hope is that we can find the hidden/mystery setting that seems to screw up audio on selective channels in selective markets and thus put an end to this problem once and for all.

And on the hopes that Alan is reading this, I need him to record the Movie Channel he has no audio on to Computer via CapDVHS and see if it has no audio when capturing to PC (Of course if the R5 is set to Copy Once, this won't accomplish anything).

Originally posted by HDTVFanAtic
Not that this belongs here, but another link inside that thread points to another thread where it explained it all. The SA3250HD outputs audio fine for me on all channels to the JVC 30k but TNT-HD. It does output audio to the PC via CapDVHS.

Really off topic response: try both DD and 2CH-PCM Digital Out settings on the JVC 30K.

TNT-HD 1080i WCF basketball telecasts were tough to record, even for the gallant 169time AVX-1. I had to lock onto another channel first then select TNT-HD, basic tune and power up just brought up a frozen 3 panel image.

This channel must use a very high bitrate for both audio and video. Perhaps the SA3250HD just freezes with higher bitrate material, as does my HTPC when using on board decoders for playback of TNT-HD material.

Originally posted by jsaliga
So let's not pretend that cable boxes are the ne plus ultra of HDTV recording, because they aren't--at least not for everyone--at least not yet. Sounds a lot like the 169time solution...does it not

Solving the firewire problems with cable boxes may be a far more daunting challenge than the solution developed by 169time. Lots of different cable providers using customized boxes that all put out the same class 1394 signal recordable on different devices may be an unrealistic goal.

Interoperability--the bane of high tech society.

I have an SA 3250HD FireWire enabled cable STB provided by Charter Cable which is acknowledged by my JVC 30K as "I-I" SA 3250 Tuner, but, no audio is or video is communicated, displayed or recorded.

The Charter head end manager has consulted with SA and claims all is well with the hardware and software on both the head end and the STB itself.

To date, FireWire recording from cable STB's is not a stable solution on which to build a library.

No video and/or audio, various dropouts & glitches in 1394 communication plague systems nationwide.

Based on the non-release of the Vividlogic DTVRecorder Firebus application which does not even have to cope with 5C, HDCP or encryption, I think the problem may well be in the poor embedded code being deployed by Vividlogic's 1394 Firebus firmware for most, or all, SA and Motorola FireWire HD STB's.

All this stuff has proved to be trickier than it first appeared.

New 169Time Web Site Message

I noticed a new message on the 169Time web site that seems to be of potentially positive significance for those of us looking for newer 169Time - DirecTV STB options, as well as updated AVX1 software that hopefully carries with it the possibility of broader FireWire, DVHS and PC compatibility.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=407815

While it is not a date certain promise of new STB upgrade options, or, new AVX1 software with any new features or capabilities, it seems that 169Time is in fact actively developing new hardware and software.

Even though it has been long anticipated, I don't recall 169Time ever clearly stating on their web site that any update of the current 169Time AVX1 software was actually upcoming.

Hopefully with the announcement of a new recording option by another company it will speed the development of newer AVX-1 software. If the recordings made by the 169time setup could be made compatible with the MyHD-120 card that would make a lot of people very happy.

Kenny

Originally posted by hotwire
Hopefully with the announcement of a new recording option by another company it will speed the development of newer AVX-1 software. If the recordings made by the 169time setup could be made compatible with the MyHD-120 card that would make a lot of people very happy.

Kenny

Kenny

I agree that it will be interesting to see people's attitude toward the new HD recording option if/when 169Time releases new AVX1 software that is fully compatible with all JVC & Mits DVHS decks, MyHD, accessDTV, Fusion, HiPix, the new ATI HD Wonder, the Samsung T165, and the LG 3140.

If the avx-1 software is improved to be compatible with all decoders, I think that recording enthusiasts will break into two camps. Those who prefer to record to D-VHS will select 169time; those who prefer to record to the PC will select the new company's device. (Actually, this break will happen without avx-1 software improvements, I suppose).

Originally posted by stjr
If the avx-1 software is improved to be compatible with all decoders, I think that recording enthusiasts will break into two camps. Those who prefer to record to D-VHS will select 169time; those who prefer to record to the PC will select the new company's device. (Actually, this break will happen without avx-1 software improvements, I suppose).

Steve

If the AVX1 software is improved to be compatible with all decoders, don't forget that 169Time would then simultaneously record "glitch-free" to both DVHS and the PC, VIA FireWire with DVHSTool, CapDVHS and MyHD, while the new solution is currently designed for direct recording to the PC only.

Originally posted by mkerdman
Steve

If the AVX1 software is improved to be compatible with all decoders, don't forget that 169Time would then simultaneously record "glitch-free" to both DVHS and the PC, VIA FireWire with DVHSTool, CapDVHS and MyHD, while the new solution is currently designed for direct recording to the PC only.

The new device still has the advantage of not requiring 2 computers for PC recording (one extra for the AVX). To be competitive for people that want to do PC recording, 169time would need to either:

a) Allow recording directly to a hard drive inside the AVX machine. If you leave another OS on the AVX machine, you can then reboot to see the recordings. Or they could add some sort of network (firewire or ethernet) support so you can move files off the AVX hard drive.

b) Move the AVX functionality into an XP driver or post-process utility. Probably easiest if they just allow capturing of raw HDVR data and then run it through some utility later to "fix" it the same way that the AVX normally does.

As a software developer, I also like that the new company claims to support external developers. I bet a lot of the 169time issues could be quickly resolved if they allowed other people to work on their product (NDA or open-source). There is only so much a single person (Richard) can do.

-Mark

Originally posted by Wizziwig
The new device still has the advantage of not requiring 2 computers for PC recording (one extra for the AVX). To be competitive for people that want to do PC recording, 169time would need to either:

a) Allow recording directly to a hard drive inside the AVX machine. If you leave another OS on the AVX machine, you can then reboot to see the recordings. Or they could add some sort of network (firewire or ethernet) support so you can move files off the AVX hard drive.

b) Move the AVX functionality into an XP driver or post-process utility. Probably easiest if they just allow capturing of raw HDVR data and then run it through some utility later to "fix" it the same way that the AVX normally does.

As a software developer, I also like that the new company claims to support external developers. I bet a lot of the 169time issues could be quickly resolved if they allowed other people to work on their product (NDA or open-source). There is only so much a single person (Richard) can do.

-Mark

Mark

Good points all.

An AVX1 is a very simple inexpensive computer to build yourself for well less than <$200.

If the AVX1 software is improved to be compatible with all decoders, PC PVR type recording and playback will be fully enabled over FireWire to MyHD, CapDVHS, and DVHSTool, and, if desired, simultaneously with DVHS recording.

The new HD recording solution states they MAY have a future potential "AVS Forum NDA developers program (e.g. HiPix)."

"Potential Future Enhancements

Integrated support for recording directly to D-VHS.

MPEG-2 Program Stream output for MP@ML (SDTV) programs.

AVS Forum NDA developers program (e.g. HiPix)."

Neither MyHD, DVHSTool, nor the Fusion software have timers to enable direct to PC recording. CapDVHS has a simple timer, but the program is not a sophisticated recording application. DVHSTool can stop a recording only.

It would be nice to schedule a week of programming, hibernate the PC, walk away, and come back a week later with everything recorded. Firewire is a convenient connection to use, due to the fact that it can talk to CE equipment, but the PC software support needs to be improved tremendously to get it out of its kludge stage.

Originally posted by stjr

It would be nice to schedule a week of programming, hibernate the PC, walk away, and come back a week later with everything recorded.

Steve

Dream on. :p

Buy an HD-Tivo and go fishing.

Originally posted by stjr
Neither MyHD, DVHSTool, nor the Fusion software have timers to enable direct to PC recording. CapDVHS has a simple timer, but the program is not a sophisticated recording application. DVHSTool can stop a recording only.

It would be nice to schedule a week of programming, hibernate the PC, walk away, and come back a week later with everything recorded. Firewire is a convenient connection to use, due to the fact that it can talk to CE equipment, but the PC software support needs to be improved tremendously to get it out of its kludge stage.

Steve,
I can't speak for DVHStool and the Fusion, by MyHD does have the ablility to make multiple OTA timer recordings using their TitanTV.com interface. I've used it to record at least a weeks worth of programming. It's very simple to use, just install their helper app, bring up the TV listings on their web page and click on the programs you want to record. The MyIRC app will schedule the recording on the MyHD. When you get back, you have a PC hard drive full of programs to watch.

I be interested to see how well the R5k's Zap2it interface works, as zap2it is similar to TitanTV. If it as easy as TitanTV, that would be great.

Techtom

I own a MyHD card. While the OTA timer is quite useful and supports hibernation, there is no timer function for capturing from a firewire source.

Originally posted by Techtom
Steve,
MyHD does have the ablility to make multiple OTA timer recordings using their TitanTV.com interface.
I be interested to see how well the R5k's Zap2it interface works, as zap2it is similar to TitanTV. If it as easy as TitanTV, that would be great.

Techtom

Techtom

I believe Steve is looking for that kind of ease of use in an HD Satellite Premium Content Recording system for the PC, whether it be FireWire, USB or whatever.

I have been given to understand by someone who should know that if anyone attempts to market a turnkey HD Premium Content System for the PC whereby 5C is ignored and the recordings are "in the clear" the MPAA may very well file suit against them.

It apparently is the MPAA's view that DVHS, one at a time, is no threat to them, 5C or not.

They are also not overly concerned with an extremely limited number of hobbyists (us) who cobble together kludges.

However, they are very concerned about the file sharing of any digital content and will come out strongly against a fully integrated turnkey easy-to-use solution that does this.

Some interesting news regarding 169time decoder incompatibility. See this post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3907051#post3907051

With the help of Ron (dr1394), we managed to track down the cause of all the problems. It's caused by those little white/green pixels that sometimes show up in the bottom-right corner of the screen. Apparently they are a bitstream error which most decoders can't recover from.

So it looks like we'll have to continue waiting for 169time to either fix the hardware (if that's where the bug originates) or the AVX software. If the AVX is really just a re-muxing device, then this error is already present in what's coming out of the STB. In that case, we may need HDVR hardware/firmware upgrades to our boxes. It sounds like the errors are too hard to automatically fix after they already occur. :(

-Mark

Wizziwig,

Thanks to you and Ron for identifying this issue with specificity. If we could get software to clean up previously recorded avx-1 files, that would be a big step forward, IMO.

What's interesting to me is that the OTA recordings from the 169time modded DTC-100 HDVR (without the avx-1) are of excellent quality and are compatible with many decoders. Does this fact provide any clues?

I just passed this info to Richard. I do believe we will see some type of update soon.

Dave

Originally posted by stjr
Wizziwig,

Thanks to you and Ron for identifying this issue with specificity. If we could get software to clean up previously recorded avx-1 files, that would be a big step forward, IMO.

What's interesting to me is that the OTA recordings from the 169time modded DTC-100 HDVR (without the avx-1) are of excellent quality and are compatible with many decoders. Does this fact provide any clues?

I also don't see the broken pixels in lower right corner on OTA recordings. Further proof that the 2 issues are linked. For some reason it's only introducing bitstream errors into satellite recordings. Maybe 169time is tapping into a part of the receiver that contains the satellite bitstream before it has gone through normal error-correction by the STB. I know all satellite transmissions need forward error correction (FEC) of some sort to operate properly.

fyi

"169time appreciates the accurate analysis of results. Please contact 169time directly by phone or email to share your results with their designers."

fyi

Dave

I get the feeling 169time will suddenly be more motivated to get an updated software release out soon.

Originally posted by KevinYee
I get the feeling 169time will suddenly be more motivated to get an updated software release out soon.

Kevin

I think you're right.

People who have had some success in identifying and/or curing any of the causes for glitches in AVX1 streams when they are played on devices other than JVC 30K's, should contact 169Time and share their insights.

That should speed the process along.

Originally posted by mkerdman
Kevin

I think you're right.

People who have had some success in identifying and/or curing any of the causes for glitches in AVX1 streams when they are played on devices other than JVC 30K's, should contact 169Time and share their insights.

That should speed the process along.

Unfortunately, both Ron and I don't have a lot of idle time to do this. It should be 169time's job (they get paid for it!). Ron is a real expert at this stuff but he doesn't even own a 169time system. I'm an engineer but don't really work in this field - I'm learning this stuff as I go.

I'll try to forward whatever we've learned to 169time. I've said this before and I'll say it again: If 169time doesn't have the resources to fix the product, they should open it up to the public! There are so many talented people on the forum that I'm sure we could have fixed the problems a long time ago. With a new competitor entering the market soon, maybe 169time will have more motivation to improve their product.

-Mark

Again, I will stay the high road.

169time has always worked with folks to make things a win win.
Ron, if you do not have a 169time setup to test some stuff on ,
give RIchard a call. I bet you can both work something out that is a win win.

And yes, anything that helps Richard prioritize more focus on more flexible AVX-1 s/w is great!! It is clear I did a pretty poor job with this. :o(

Dave

Originally posted by h2ofun
Again, I will stay the high road.

169time has always worked with folks to make things a win win.
Ron, if you do not have a 169time setup to test some stuff on ,
give RIchard a call. I bet you can both work something out that is a win win.

And yes, anything that helps Richard prioritize more focus on more flexible AVX-1 s/w is great!! It is clear I did a pretty poor job with this. :o(

Dave

Just a quick update. Richard has indeed been very responsive to our recent findings. He now has a copy of the samples and tools necessary to reproduce and analyze the errors. I can't say more without his permission but I'm confident these errors will be fixed in the next AVX update.

-Mark

Cool Mark. As I have always said, if one works with Richard at 169time, he will bend over backwards to do the best he can!

At least it sounds like a number of us who talk to Richard are hearing the same thing. He is back on the avx-1 s/w. Yea. I know he told me no more sale prices until this is done!

Dave

Just my personal opinion and I appreciate many of you will passionately disagree with me.

I feel the bulk of issues with 169Time's system as it stands today stems from people attempting to use the system in a manner it was not originally designed to be used. i.e. For PC recording. The original 169Time concept was engineered for 1394 recording to a DVHS VCR with a built in decoder (JVC30K) or playback via the stb's decoder as would be required with a MIts VCR or Panny PVHD1000. Those of us have little problems other than very minor micro glitches once in a great while on those recordings. Some people claim to have no problems at all. I do see a few glitches, such as 2-3 in a 90 minute recording on the Mits and 1 per 5 minutes on the JVC40K playback.

I receive e-mail from many attempting to use the 169Time system for PC who are extremely frustrated with this application. I apologize to all as not only can I not help you, I personally feel you are attempting to use a system that was designed for another recording medium.
Now I do recognize that Richard has made some claimes about PC recording on the 169Time website, I feel his product as it relates to PC recording is about as advanced as was the first generation of the 169Time DVHS recording where only the most daring hobbiests would venture.

Additionally, I feel his time and efforts to adapt this DVHS recording system to PC's is not a wise use of his time. I would like to see Richard perfect his DVHS solution to perfection and continue to offer more STB's that support this archival method. I would like to see 169Time venture into 1394 retrofits to the latest of DVR's like the HDTIVO, 921, and the new VOOM receiver.

I say let it be known that 169Time recording system works for PC recordings but is not a recommended approach for 169Time use, rather that DVHS is the preferred AND supported recording medium.
If you wish to experiment with it, then YO-YO as an application developer.


Additionally, I feel that any working and supported PC recording solution that does not keep the content secure on a PC will suffer the wrath of the industry. This, IMHO, will open the 169Time company that, to date, has been left alone to dabble in DVHS HDTV recording, to legal harrassment as a defendant against the content copyright holders, MPAA, and the DBS providers. IT has been said over and over that recording of HDTV content to PC's that can easily duplicate and distribute it is specifically the area that the MPAA will target for legal exclusion. Anyone who markets this PC recording concept will need to have very deep pockets to survive.


I am very happy to see this new kid on the block because maybe it will draw the attention away from 169Time. The (169Time)solution works! I have it and while I don't use it anymore for time shifting, I still use it to record the few shows I want to keep for later viewing.

Good summary of the last 132 pages, Don!

Don,

While I welcome the addition of new HD recording options, such as the R5000-HD, I too question the legally defensible wisdom of marketing a turn-key HD Direct-to-PC recording system that uses modified set top boxes receiving premium content under a limited use subscription contract, to add HD first generation recordable outputs that skirts the 5C "Copy Once" provisions, to deliver "in-the-clear" HD premium content to a PC hard drive that is ripe for file sharing as future broadband technology permits, and, uses a one-touch EPG from an industry powerhouse like www.zap2it.com, whether licensed or not.

As you pointed out, I think our hobby has only been tolerated by the studios and the MPAA to date because of our relatively small numbers, but, more importantly because the only other similarly based turnkey solution, 169Time, is engineered and sold specifically as a D-VHS based product.

By Nextcom marketing a product like the R5000-HD, whose sole functional direct recording device and media is a PC and its hard drive, I fear they may well be awakening to legal action a sleeping giant to enforce the DMCA, as they interpret it, with vastly deeper pockets than Nextcom, AVS, and all its members have combined.

Potentially, being legally correct matters little in a dispute such as this may portend.

Just look to what lengths HBO is going to in defending its "analog hole" programming copyrights from “in-the-clear” recording:

http://www.hbo.com/corpinfo/cgmsafaq.shtml

An analysis of how the revenues of the music industry has been decimated in the last few years of the file sharing era should give you some idea how paranoid and militant Hollywood may grow to be to avoid the same fate.

I don't think legal action by the entertainment industry against Digital HD PC recording is at all unlikely, and, could conceivably spread to other products used by hobbyists HD recorders for similar purposes.

By continuing to refine and perfect D-VHS HD recording, 169Time navigates a road well traveled and tolerated by the entertainment industry, and, one which is codified in the FCC Order that requires cable co.'s to offer FireWire enabled STB's for just such a purpose.

Always be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it, and, a lot more for your trouble.

Don, I agree 100%. I was the one to push Richard to put out some bits for folks to play with on a PC. As I have said before, I never should have done that. Now, with this being said, in my opinion, and input to Richard, 169time will never "support" PC recording. Its product is to DVHS decks.
Now, if folks are able to make a product work in ways it is not sold or supported, they can not stop them from doing this. This is why I believe the 169time is fine since they have not changed their focus. Any product that ONLY goes to the PC better be waiting for the MPAA knock on the door.

Again, just my 2 cents.

Dave

Another interesting why to look at this has nothing to do with, lets say, any of todays laws. Bottom line is does a product impacts a companies profit and sales. And is the product turn key so basically anyone can use.
Well, it was clear that the record industry left copying issues alone until the internet came along with easy file sharing products like Naspter. Who know where they ended up. Now they are going after anyone who they can catch.

321studios has basically been shut down since they offered a turn key solution that allowed many to copy DVD's. Again, profit and sales.

Is 169time a turnkey? Far from it. Has 169time impacted the MPAA in sales and profit. If so, it is so small that it is a non issue. Has the 169time product actively supported a turn key product that gets bits easily on a computer to be sent to others on the internet. Nope.

So, the past clearly shows where the line in the sand is for the MPAA.
I hope others are smart enough not to awake the sleeping giant.

Dave

While I agree with you that it was originally designed for D-VHS two points to ponder before saying PC is not intended.

1. I have read many posts about drop outs and problems recording even with the JVC D-VHS!

2. If the transport stream is clean over firewire it should work well for either

So getting them to tame the PC record will make the D-VHS recordings less of a problem too.

Don't you think??

Not to mention D-VHS seems to have a limited life Let alone the reliability issues mentioned many time in here

Just my thoughts.

Rew

Originally posted by Rew452
Not to mention D-VHS seems to have a limited life Let alone the reliability issues mentioned many time in here

Rew

Rew

I believe that if you store DVHS tapes vertically at room temperature (+/- 70 degrees) DVHS tapes will almost certainly be playable in 15 years.

If and when there are reliable hard drives, or solid state equivalents, as cost effective as removable DVHS tapes (i.e. $.22/GB for a Fuji SVHS T120 @ $3.75 for 17GB's) you can then transfer your DVHS tape contents to it if you choose.

Or, when Blu-Ray or HD-DVD recorders and blank media meet that same cost effectiveness, you can then transfer your DVHS tape contents there.

I think people are prejudiced against DVHS based on their experiences with analog VHS, which is very different.

However, I believe there plenty of commercial and hobbyist VHS and DVHS libraries that have not and will not disintegrate before their owners very eyes.

Interestingly enough, many HD broadcasters use the digital high-definition HD D5 format Tape exclusively for program editing, mastering and HD broadcast delivery over the air, satellite and cable that we watch and record.

Most broadcasters and their content providers entire libraries are tape based.

"13. What is the life expectancy of HD tape?

Magnetic media can be expected to last at least 30 years provided the recommended practices are followed. Archival stability is usually estimated using the results of accelerated testing. Fujifilm has done many such studies but also, as the first manufacturer of metal particle tape for broadcast use, has the longest-running studies ongoing in real-time. At a NASA-IEEE Mass Storage Conference in 2002 Fujifilm presented results showing that metal particle tape had excellent performance characteristics after almost 15 years of storage."

http://www.fujifilm.ca/tips.asp?par...&tipID=128&ug=3


D-VHS/S-VHS tapes are a very convenient and inexpensive (approx. $.20/GB) removable storage media.

However, should a media server hard drive have it's heads crash or become corrupted, you probably have lost 10 or more of your HD movies, whereas, if a D-VHS/S-VHS tape for some reason becomes unplayable, it's certainly not 10 at a time.

With programs like DVHTools you can always restore the file from D-VHS tape and archive it to Blu-Ray, HD-DVD or the next big thing in storage at some point in the future.

You've got at least 20 years to think about

Why do people see PC recording as some special feature that needs custom support? Any product that properly saves to D-VHS (without 5C) is automatically PC compatible. Just dump your tape back to PC or leave the deck in the chain and use its output for recording to hard drive. The only reason people have problems with PC support on the 169time product is because it's still buggy - even on JVC-30K. It just happens that the decoder in that unit is more tolerant of errors than most PC solutions.

Once 30K recording is perfect (without the bitstream errors that cause the flashing pixels) we will also get perfect PC playback. Richard doesn't need to devote any special resources to PC users as Don suggests. He just needs to fix the bugs in the bitstream that affect everyone.

-Mark

mkerdman,

My criticism of D-VHS was not aimed at the tape but at the recorders themselves. I had planned on getting a 30k when I got my sytem(169time AVX-1) back in December of last year but the deals did not happen. Looked at 40K, just too expensive for all the problems I have read about here. So for now PC seems the best from my point of view.

I'm holding out for some removable storage media until we get Blue Ray or What ever HD optical storage that makes it.

I guess you could say we see the problem the same but the solution is different.

Rew

Originally posted by Rew452
mkerdman,

My criticism of D-VHS was not aimed at the tape but at the recorders themselves. I had planned on getting a 30k when I got my sytem(169time AVX-1) back in December of last year but the deals did not happen. Looked at 40K, just too expensive for all the problems I have read about here. So for now PC seems the best from my point of view.

I'm holding out for some removable storage media until we get Blue Ray or What ever HD optical storage that makes it.

I guess you could say we see the problem the same but the solution is different.

Rew

Rew

I used two Panasonic HD1000's for several years with the Dish 5000-HD and built a big HD library with them. I did have to replace one of them along the way.

Since 2-11-04 (Dish 5000 R.I.P.) I have bought three Factory Refurb. JVC 30K's for $300 ea. delivered and have kept the heads and tape paths clean and have had great luck so far by load balancing recording and playback among them.

I know if I said the library was all on removable optical media like HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, it would seem much sexier.

But that's not available today.

So, when the optical drives and blank media are available and affordable I'll probably transfer the library from D-VHS.

Murray Kerdman,

Peace!

Your situation is much different than mine.

D-TV is my choice and I am just starting my HD collection.
And there is today removable media that compares favorable to D-VHS tapes; nameley Iomega Rev 35gb disk cartidge drive.

It goes for < $350 for the drive, carts are about 40- 50 ea. Prices are dropping.

But my main point was improving the 169time output helps everyone regardless of what you use to record.

It was not meant slam anyone or thing.

Rew

Originally posted by Rew452
But my main point was improving the 169time output helps everyone regardless of what you use to record.

Rew

Rew

This is true, and, with any luck, the time for such improved 169Time decoder compatibility will be sooner than not.

Originally posted by Don Landis
Not withstanding my doubts about this system [R5000-HD] and whether it will survive the industry no-no of recording HDTV to a PC that bypasses copy protection...


Don & Murray,
I'm curious why you think the R5000-HD or 169time is "bypassing" copy protection? Assuming the IRD is legally subscribed, the supported IRDs have no copy protection to bypass. The IRDs don't have 5c, HDCP, DTCP, or even macrovision on the analog outputs. So again I ask, what copy protection is being bypassed?

On the other hand if 169 time is successful at supporting newer IRDs that have DVI+HDCP, then the installation of a 169 (or R5000-HD) would be circumventing the HDCP copy protection.

TW

Originally posted by thurstonw
Don & Murray,
I'm curious why you think the R5000-HD or 169time is "bypassing" copy protection? Assuming the IRD is legally subscribed, the supported IRDs have no copy protection to bypass. The IRDs don't have 5c, HDCP, DTCP, or even macrovision on the analog outputs. So again I ask, what copy protection is being bypassed?

On the other hand if 169 time is successful at supporting newer IRDs that have DVI+HDCP, then the installation of a 169 (or R5000-HD) would be circumventing the HDCP copy protection.

TW

TW

I am just another hack internet lawyer, but, I think the creative and fertile minds of Hollywood's lawyers would find an actionable basis upon which to proceed against any PC based unencrypted HD recording solution to protect their copyrighted works from unauthorized distribution.

By example, they may say that such devices as the R5000-HD are sold solely for the express purpose of facilitating the copying of HD material in a digital unencrypted form directly to a computer, and as such, that is beyond the scope of the limited license granted to the user under their satellite subscription agreement with E* / D*, who themselves are the copyright holders limited licensees.

Further, they may well argue recording their copyrighted works in such an unencrypted digital form directly to a PC is likely to give rise to file sharing with non-subscribers whether by electronic means or by virtue of a perfect 1:1 digital hard copy.

You see, 5C, HDCP, DTCP need never come up in such an argument.

Keep in mind, as in many legal actions, they do not necessarily need to be legally right, just willing to pay big bucks to advance the argument to punish the defendant into submission.

I am not hoping this would happen, but, as a hobbyist interested in my continued ablility to record HD to D-VHS without 5C, I am concerned that it may with new PC based solutions like the R5000-HD coming to market .

"He just needs to fix the bugs in the bitstream that affect everyone.
"

wizziwig-
And I agree that Richard should be concentrating his effort in that direction, IF there are indeed "bugs" in the system that affect ability to record to DVHS. However, I have often pondered these "micro glitches in the recordings as to whether these are originated by the imperfection of the tape and recorder itself or it stems from the 169Time design. I don't believe that he should be spending his time worrying about how to make the recordings to PC's perfect if those who are using the 169Time system in a manner it was designed for (DVHS) are having satisfactory results. If that is true, then as I said, he needs to be adding more receivers to the 169Time collection as working to perfect unseen defects in the bitstream just so PC recordists can have an unsupported solution is not a wise use of the precious R&D time.

TW- It's not what I think, but rather what the MPAA has stated publicly. WE all know what type of recording (PC's) is of most concern to them and if we want to thumb our noses at their request to not do that then anyone who does must be ready to fight with the big boys. WE have already debated the issue of 169Time and 5C. I won't go there again as it is recorded in this thread.

My Rant: ( I am not an expert )

Those who have problems with 169 complain, those who do not have problems do not complain and have other things to do. NOT UNQUE.. if it works you don't call every day and compalin "IT'S WOKING, I HAVE NO PROBLEMS !!. WHATS WRONG :)"

I am extrtemely pleased with 169 and Dave. Is it perfect , works great for me. Every tape is great. I have three (3) 30k JVC and three (3) modified by 169 set top boxes and Direct Tv with a signal srength of 95. I have a seperate 28 inch dish , one for each satalite going to a multiplex switch.. total costs about $250. My veiwing is not a computer monitor but a Thosiba LCoS a lot more then $250. No my 169 computer is not 6 or 18 ft away but 24 inches.

...... Perhaps there is someting to do with Dish signal and STB that causes or contributes to the problem. I have no ecperiance with Dish.

.... also seems that the new 40K JVC may not be as compatible per posted complaints.

.... TIVO will not let you store your recordings unless you change out and store the hard drive / replace with a new one... check on how to do it.. AV hard drives are formatted with very long sectors where the data for streaming video data as opposesed to operating system and data , which are much smaller storage sectors so as too not waste space. ( a sector is how data is stored, like a file cabnet drawer. You can only store one item per sector ) Compare storing a page to a book of storage. The hard drive is going from sector to sector to get the data, geting a page at a time is slow as compared to getting the whole book at one time. ........THE GOOD is TIVO allows you to safely record by setting the timer and leaving.

The 169 system takes time to come up and load (like minutes) and on occasion does not lock in to I-2. Also if set-up and working may not lock in when timer on VCR comes on. I have never used the timer function. I also find the tapes are cheaper storage then a hard drive and you are not using your computer, which in it self is a whole another issue.

I have been reading this tread for quite some time.

"ALAN" is always complaining and I just fouind out he did not get his system from 169 but through some distributer and then makes his on fixes. THEN he wants $25 a min or $1500 an hour for consulting... if he can not get his system working why call him for advice ??? perhaps his $25/min is just for humor :) He also wants "Dave" to fix it but will not send it in for Dave to look at.
My message to "Alan" is WAKE UP.... - go to the guy you purchased it from!
....- You made your own fixes/repairs, perhaps that fixed one problem but created another. WHY DO YOU BLAME AND COMPLAIN about "169" / Dave.
Seems he has never been involved with your system or REPAIRS.
He is attempting to help you but it is too much trouble to pack and ship !!!!
Perhaps it is an operator problem !!! Seems you are too busy or unwilling to pay the price to fix ?

NEXT :

The 169 system is for HDTV tape recording for time shifting , just like any VCR. IT IS NOT MADE FOR RECORDING TOO COMPUTER"S...HARD DRIVES. 169 STATES THIS UP FRONT.... IF YOU CAN READ. It is leagal to make tape for your personal use. IT HAS BEEN TO COURT.

- I have done some research ( no expert ) BUT
... standard analog signal is 5 hz band width to transmit data, HDTV signal is 30 Hz to transmit data... also video and audio are seperate.
Basic HDTV signal transmits 6 times the data per second then analog signal uses. Just like a water pipe it may be fit for 5 gallons per second but will overflow if you try to push 30 gallions per second. Solution higher water pressure.. same with computer you need a much faster system to handle the data. 5000 bits/sec vs 30,000 bits/sec.
>>> and peolple have a problem of why there P3 933 mhz computer has a problem. There are programs that will do it .. cost $1200 soft ware and the higher end version they will not sell without the purchase of a computer system capable of handling the HIGH DATA RATE. CPU P4 3.2 or 3.4 and 4 hard drives that are "raid striped"

These HDTV cards only display to a monitor and even then its YOUR COMPUTER"S ability to be fast enough too handle the signel. Also can your monitor handle a HDTV signal... the cheap ones can not.

The lawyers are not going to take any one to court for making their own personal tape. In fact Showtime just ended the 1st seasaon of the "L-Word" within days e-bay had people selling self made DVD's of the complete season for up to $150.. Showtime will release a legal DVD for sale in a couple of months. This is illegal and ebay does not refuse the listings and Showtime has done little too stop it. Perhaps it is so few it does or will not impact the sale of the ligitimate version. Also these illegal made DVD's may be of poor quality or not play on your DVD palyer.

Please read my previous postings as I go into more detail on my experiance and setup.

GOOD LUCK.. AND WITHOUT 169 and DAVE YOU WOULD HAVE NOTHING!
ALSO THERE ARE THOSE OF US WHO DO NOT HAVE ANY PROBLEMS. DO NOT POST DUE TO BEING TOO BUST WATCHING OUR GREAT HDTV TAPES.
THANKS 169 AND DAVE YOUR EFFORTS ARE APPREACIATED BY MANY !

JBarrow-

While your passion is certainly appreciated, I'm sure by 169Time and Dave; your details are a bit mixed up, enough to be considered as standup comedy. No offense here, it is just the way I read your titled post: 'not an expert rant.' But just so you don't have the wrong idea- Alan is the owner of this forum you have posted in. Alan permits 169Time threads here as a means of support for 169Time. Because of that, IMHO, Alan does deserve some special consideration from 169Time. But having said that, I do believe that Alan has had a considerable abundance of problems even if we discount all those he has had that stem from his use of the 169Time product for his PC use (which is now being stated as not supported).

Dave's claim to fame with 169Time is that he lives close to 169Time and has the opportunity to,... get in Richard's Face as a liason means to aid all AVS forum members. Dave is not employed by 169Time but has helped 169Time clean up it's act in the past which I believe is directly responsible for us all having product from 169Time today. ( Special thanks, Dave. ) Dave offers 169Time good advice on how to conduct business with AVS forum members. He has also assisted Richard of 169Time in doing pre beta testing of new product and modifications before the rest of us see it. However, I am not aware that Dave is doing 169Time's repair. That would be news to me.


I will leave the technical stuff like 5 Hz bandwidth alone as that was just too fascinating to mess with. :D

"Alan is the owner of this forum you have posted in."

Don..... I thought Alan and Ken H are the moderator's (of the HDTV section of AVS), not the owner(s)? Could be I'm confused?

Take care......

Alan Gouger & David Bott own the AVS Forum. Alan and Ken H are moderators of this, among other forum sections.

Ron... Thanks for clearing things up for me.

Mike

IMO, the 169time product has appeal primarily to two groups of recording enthusiasts (broadly defined for purposes of illustration). One group is people who want to record to D-VHS tape only. The other group is people who want to do other things with their recordings, such as copy, use different decoders, deinterlace, remux, etc, usually with their PC's.

For those people who want to record to D-VHS tape, 169 time works pretty well. Copy protection (or lack thereof) is not an issue for this group, because they are happy with their single D-VHS copy. However, as we know, firewire STB's are increasingly available from cable companies. These STB's will also allow people to record to D-VHS, providing competition for 169time.

There are cost, programming and quality issues that also affect one's choice of recording hardware, so comparing 169time with cable STB's is not exactly an apples to apples comparison. People who are in the D-VHS recording group are unlikely to be interested in the R5000-HD, because it requires extra steps to archive to D-VHS. The availability of DVR's also complicates the choice of recording hardware.

As alternative recording methods become available, I expect that people who want to do other things with their recordings will remain a core group that is interested in the 169time hardware.

Maybe the 169time business model can be sustained with D-VHS recording enthusiasts alone. I assume that if 169time is revising its avx-1 software, it is also concerned about satisfying the second group.

ALAN
I am sorrow and rergret what I said. I did not know the efforts you have gone through and unaware that you established this great discussion group.

Also I have to give you the same credit for building the best forum I have had the pleasure to be use. I have learned much more than given.

I just beleived that 169 deserved some credit and everyone seemed to complain. I now have a great discussion group, thanks to Alan and great HDTV movies on tape thanks to 169. As mentioned 169 is the only game in town.

I am happy I have added some humor to the post :)

It seems strange that some of us seemed to have no problems with the 169 system. While others do have problems which seemed to vary. I do think it is expensive but it is not a product of great demand for mass production.

I do count myself lucky not to have any problems.

After writting my " rant" I went to the 169 site and found that they have added lets of helpful info on recording to a PC as well as the problem of setting up time / improving time shift recording. Also they offer a cooling system/fan for the Hughes STB. I did have a major problem with it and Hughes tech agreed that heat was a problem.

The system I mentioned was developed for TV stations to edit news and shows in real time and in fact did not interface with a STB but for broadcast use. Other then 169 and DVS tools I know of no other methods. It does help that Win XP does offer some features that help in recording to a hard drive.

However the bandwidth allocated by the FCC " FREE" to the networks was 30 and the networks came back 3 years later stating they would not meet the dead line for conversion to full HDTV and could they use the 30 for standard digital use and get 5 more digital channels on the bandwidth.

I have also seen posts where users were complaining about signal and some get the "professional" ( talk about BULL!) installer to adjust their directTV 3 way 18" dish. A few did after numerious call get an installer to spend an extra 20 / 30 mins to align the dish for the best signal strength. With DirectTV's 3 sats you are getting a happy medium. In my case with three larger 28" dishs, one "pinpointed" to each sat, I do get great signal stregnth.

There seems to be two computer issues ... the 1st building your own Avix1 which converts the signal to record on the JVC HDTV VCR but does not store to a hard drive and the 2nd being storage of HDTV movies to hard drives. In fact years ago AV drives were sold which were set for large/long data streams. I do beleive that Win XP does offer a AV format vs the standard data format.

Also ther are problems unrelated to the 169 system. Such as signal strength. Local electricity power quality not being up to standard. Also local interferance within the home or neighbors.

Thanks and good luck.

JBarrow

You are welcome to express your feelings. Just because I am owner of the forum that does not protect me and I do not expect it to nor do I use it to protect myself or abuse the privilege in any way.

I want to express mine regarding "what you found out" in defense of my second 169time purchasing experience.

I was in a phone conversation with Richard from 169 time about the glitches I was getting with the DTC100 and 169time system and he said get the Bel system it works much better. So with this I ordered the system from his dealer who is an authorized 169time dealer.

When I got the system the results were very disappointing. Of all the HD channels I could only record a few. Of those the glitches were worse than with my DTC100 AVX combo.

I made a phone call to Richard. He said I needed to start the system using ABC as the first channel to lock onto or I would have trouble. I was not told this during my first phone call with Richard. To save some red tape the system is far from glitch free so Richard recommended I send it to him so he can confirm the hardware was done correct and he could do some some testing.

I sent in the system. 2 weeks later no word from Richard. I waited a little longer decided to email him. His one sentance response in the email was
" Ill be in touch by Friday"

Come Friday nothing.
I waited until the following week.
I called him, he said everything was correct as far as he hardware and he did not know what was going on.

I waited a while longer and contacted him again. He said he could not figure it out and said he would return it.
All this took going on 2 months.

After the return and the product no beter then when I first sent it in I sent a final email asking if there were any ideas why it was not working. In the returned email another one sentance response, it said:

" I have no idea, ask for your money back"

I was kinda shocked. I at least expected something like " I am sorry " or something.
I just spent $1700. I was not offered nor did I ask for any discount as forum owner. I ordered it as a normal end user and paid full price.

I did buy this based on Richard telling me the Bel system performed better than the DTC100 direct combo in our phone conversation. It turns out to be the worse combo of the three so "heads up" dont buy it.

My dealer does not offer refunds. He did nothing wrong so I do not hold him responsible. I do hold 169 time responsible.

Sense then a lot of other customers complained about the Bel system not working and it being limited to a few channels at that.
It was then blamed on Bel saying they must be doing something to their channels that would trick the 169time system.

If thats the case why does the new 5000 system record all Bels HD channels flawless.
This points to some error in the 169 time system.

At this point I am still out $1700.

I have heard nothing more from Richard at 169 time sense his last email saying
"I dont know what it is ,get a refund"

As a end user ( not forum owner) I am shocked how the door was closed on this.
I do not call this customer service.

Because of this I must go on record and say all is not roses from 169 time like some protest.

For those thinking of doing business with them I would get a return policy in writing before dropping a $ and do not believe what you are told on the phone as in my case.

I learned the hard way at my expense and Im the one out $1700 while 169 time took their commission.

I hope who ever told you based on your " I found out" my story I am sure they did not tell you the whole story. Now you have it.

I would also expect anyone else had they gone through this to be very dissapointed as well. I dont think Im expected to be jumping with joy right now.

Originally posted by stjr
IMO, the 169time product has appeal primarily to two groups of recording enthusiasts (broadly defined for purposes of illustration). One group is people who want to record to D-VHS tape only. The other group is people who want to do other things with their recordings, such as copy, use different decoders, deinterlace, remux, etc, usually with their PC's.

For those people who want to record to D-VHS tape, 169 time works pretty well. Copy protection (or lack thereof) is not an issue for this group, because they are happy with their single D-VHS copy. However, as we know, firewire STB's are increasingly available from cable companies. These STB's will also allow people to record to D-VHS, providing competition for 169time.


Steve

Users with only a casual interest in recording, time shifting and archiving may be satisfied by cable's limited FireWire recording to D-VHS options.

Many reports, as well as my own personal experience, tells me that the cable FireWire recording to D-VHS offerings are far from plug and play nor are they audio/video glitch-free in many cases.

I think many people using 169Time's archive to D-VHS products, unlike cable's FireWire implementation, do so in large part due to the absence of 5C.

This will hopefully allow future FireWire recording from the D-VHS deck to an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray FireWire enabled optical recorder to transition to another archive media type.

Should HD-DVD or Blu-Ray optical recorders in fact be FireWire enabled, 169Time products will then likely also record directly to optical disk.

PC uses for 169Time products vary greatly by user and since they are essentially unsupported, and there is no turnkey software offered for sale by 169Time, they are not liable for the compatibility or usefullness of the results.

Thanks
and again I am sorrow.
I AM THE PERFECT EXCAMPLE THAT A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS DANGERIOUS :)

Without your great forum I would never have known about 169
I was lucky in that my only problem had been the Hughes STB that get HOT and they agreed that they had a problem.

Come to think about it without this forum I would not be recording HDTV but lots of more $$$$ in the bank :)

Not a problem I am an old retired engineer and like I said waiting for HDTV for a long time.

I must give you credit when due. I have been on many forums and non come close to you excellent quality. I respect and admire your efforts and excellant in being able to set this up. I have problems just spelling ( proves I am an old engineer) and writing e-mails.

Also you have some real experts on the forum which share their knowledge with others. You also have the ones like me :)

THANKS ALAN for al of this.

JBarrow

Im glad you are able to gain from the forum. Yes there are lots of good people here. I am lucky to have everyone who make up this great community. Without you this forum would be nothing.

Originally posted by Alan Gouger

A good portion of 169time customers use this for PC recording and we also know those people who use it for this also get support from 169time.

169 time does nothing to prevent it.

The web site as of todays date has a page just for this.
http://169time.com/index.html#PChdtv

Sooner or later I would also expect a PC playback card to come along with HDCP or 5c. That would allow people to use the PC within their personal need with the hardware meeting he copy protection standards.

Alan

169Time's web site does indeed contain that info.

As with many other ad hoc things in life, there probably is no warranty for that particular purpose expressed, written, or implied.

If 169Time wants to distance themselves from PC recording, they may well remove that section from their web site.

However, I doubt even if they did remove the PC related info, that users would cease using their products in innovative ways to suit their individual needs.

And, as limitations or compatibilities arose with third party devices and applications, 169Time would be blamed for producing a defective or limited product.

However, no one product can be all things to all people.

Alan, it's regrettable that you do not live in an area with good OTA HDTV.

If you did, I doubt you would have found the need or desire to have bought an out of market BEV Canadian satellite solution nor the 169Time 6000 STB mod. for that specific service which provided you with the American networks programming in HDTV.

Then, you would not have had the experience which has left you so obviously unsatisfied.

Most every Dish 6000 169Time user I have heard from are exceedingly satisfied with the American STB modification's results.

I found this to be true myself such that while I already had a 169Time DTC100, I recently opted to get one of my Dish 6000's modified by 169Time.

Last night I taped Terminator 3 on that new 169Time Dish 6000, and, watched it on a digital projector through an LG 3410's (not the JVC 30K outputs) DVI output.

The entire movie’s picture quality was absolutely stellar and the results were "glitch-free".

As to an authorized PCI card with 5C and/or HDCP, or a similar card with cable’s CableCard HD capability, I seriously doubt any such devices will ever be licensed and sold in the United States.

PC uses for 169Time products vary greatly by user and since they are essentially unsupported

This means nothing. The product still allows it and you can find many on this forum using it as such with no interaction from 169time.

This reminds me of that dvd rip software that just lost in court. The software allowed you to make a back up copy of a dvd. The manufacture said it states in their manual "this is not to be used with copy right material"
That did not get them very far. We have the same this here, the product allows it.

A good portion of 169time customers use this for PC recording and we also know those people who use it for this also get support from 169time.

169 time does nothing to prevent it.

The web site as of todays date has a page just for this.
http://169time.com/index.html#PChdtv

This is self admittance they know the product is used for this. While they provide a statement that says they do not offer support for the product to used for this purpose they also offer links and other helpful info in the very next paragraph.


They have in the past sold the board & parts needed to those building their own version just for this purpose knowing the customer was using it to record to a PC.

The history of the avx and PC recording and support these people have received trying to figure out their problems is documented here on the forum.

169time and the 5000 are similar products. One records to tape but with additional steps allows recording right to the PC while the other does the reverse. Are they doing anything wrong because there currently is no 5c in the source they are working with. If 5c is added and 169time and the 5000 continue to offer a product that allows anyone to dump to a PCs hard drive then I would think they have broken some serious laws.

Sooner or later I would also expect a PC playback card to come along with HDCP or 5c. That would allow people to use the PC within their personal need with the hardware meeting he copy protection standards.

Murray

I pulled my post last to edit my last paragrah to read as a question instead of my opinion. You posted while I made my change before I reposted it.


As far as me not having any local OTA or not has nothing to do with the fact that I was told somethig worked and $1700 later is does not.

I was not told by 169time to bad I dont have OTA.
They were glad to make the sale and promoted the product working. I put my trust in that phone call and got burned.

Theres no sugar coating it or trying to make excuses. I bought something that does not work as told and after sending it in they could not get it to work.

If I sell something to a customer and they come back un happy I go out of my way and provide a refund or do what ever i takes to make that customer happy.
I dont care if the refund comes out of my pocket. Even if that customer never buys from me again he will never be able to say I did not take care of him.


169 time never told me that Dish gives better results when I bought my Direct AVX system. I was never told the Bel system does not work, dont buy it.
I was told these products work.

Im happy with the results from the DTC100 just as long as I use the JVC to play back the tapes. Are the tapes pefect, no. They have glitches from time to time but I also get some good recordings as well.
The glitches always seam to come to a recording you want thats important to you. Almost as if it knows.

You mentioning Bel being out of country. No need to even mention that. It does not fix the problem.

You mentioning you are having good luck or you telling me the Dish system works the best does not make me feel any better about this and it does not get me my money back.
169 time sells the product. They dont sell it advertising these dont work. If they did no one would buy from them.

I feel I got burned.

Originally posted by Alan Gouger

It is no excuse for 169 time, 169 time sells the product.


Alan,

I have to agree with you on the basic point that since BEV 6000 mod's are still offered by 169Time, yours should have worked too.

I have no idea if your dealer's installation of the modification, or, his possible modification to the 6000 so that it would operate in the U.S. entered into the poor results you experienced.

I also have no idea if there are, or are not, other happy BEV 6000 169Time mod. customers in the U.S. or Canada.

I have never heard of any authorized 169Time dealers.

However, if there are any, I do agree that your dealer and 169Time, acting together, should have done more to make the situation right based on who received whatever portion of your $1,700 and could not deliver a working product.

Notwithstanding the foregoing, you should consider your opinion carries more weight than others on the AVS Forum, and, that the Dish 6000 169Time works well and AVS Forum members therefore should not be allowed to confuse your poor BEV 6000 results with those to be achieved with a Dish Network 6000 modified by 169Time.

Murray I sent the unit in to Richard and he confirmed the dealer did everything correct. Nothing wrong with the hardware.
It has sense been established the Bel 169time is not a good combo at our expense. A lot of forum members have posted about this sense.


Another note: seeing as someone from 169time shared my personal busness transaction with their customers ( using the excuse I bought from their dealer, what does that have to do with anything, they approved this guy and sent him the equipment and they got their cut.) I dont feel bad venting this in public.
Otherwise this would have been kepted to myself.

If not 169time direct then I think we know who it is.

Originally posted by Alan Gouger
Another note: seeing as someone from 169time shared my personal busness transaction with their customers I dont feel bad venting this in public.
Otherwise this would have been kepted to myself.

If not 169time direct then I think we know who it is.

Alan

No one but you, in the form of your various posts on this and other threads, told me anything about your transaction.

However, you have a right to be frustrated, as $1,700 is a lot of money, and, your time and effort is worth something as well.

It is regretable that all the parties involved have not found a way to settle this privately and amicably a long time ago.

---------

We all put a great deal of effort into this hobby, and often times is not met with the results we had hoped for.

It just shouldn't be this hard.

However, if Hollywood wanted us to be able to record this HD material, DirecTV, Dish, all the cable co.'s, JVC, Sony, Panasonic, and the rest of the satellite, cable and consumer electronics industry could make it exceedingly easy.

But they don't, and so, we trudge along with kludge's of various sorts each rife with their own long suits and shortcomings.

”Notwithstanding the foregoing, you should consider your opinion carries more weight than others on the AVS Forum,”

You would think that 169time would be smart enough to come to the same conclusion to avoid Alan posting his story. Seems like 169time cut off their nose to spite their face on a forum that has been the prime market place for their products.

With treatment like that I can see where Alan would jump all over the R5000 system.

Originally posted by Alan Gouger
It has sense been established the Bel 169time is not a good combo at our expense. A lot of forum members have posted about this sense.


Alan

I was ignorant of that, for which I apologize.

For what its worth I live in Canada and have done the mods for 169time here. Personally I have done and owned the dtc100 the bell 6000, dish 6000 and the starchoice hd-201 sidecar. Out of all the products that 169time installs their product in the ONLY one I was happy with and still am is the Dish 6000. Me and Allan have talked about this lots and we both have had the same problems at the same time ( he even had problems I never) . But Allan is right that the 169time for Bev doesn't work. I could not record one episode of ER without watching for perhaps 15mins and the rest unwatchable (sound but the picture not viewable just a coloured mess on the screen with nothing distinguishable). Very expensive and a waste of money.

On the other hand I have and love the dish 6000 mod use it all the time. Never have a problem!!!

Originally posted by wildchild22
For what its worth I live in Canada and have done the mods for 169time here. Personally I have done and owned the dtc100 the bell 6000, dish 6000 and the starchoice hd-201 sidecar. Out of all the products that 169time installs their product in the ONLY one I was happy with and still am is the Dish 6000. Me and Allan have talked about this lots and we both have had the same problems at the same time ( he even had problems I never) . But Allan is right that the 169time for Bev doesn't work. I could not record one episode of ER without watching for perhaps 15mins and the rest unwatchable (sound but the picture not viewable just a coloured mess on the screen with nothing distinguishable). Very expensive and a waste of money.

On the other hand I have and love the dish 6000 mod use it all the time. Never have a problem!!!

wildchild22

Because of your many 169Time mods, you are uniquely qualified to render an opinion about the various 169Time solutions.

We can all learn something from your experiences.

I have the DTC100 and the Dish 6000, and, I can confirm the Dish 6000 works and looks best.

Interestingly, I viewed the R5000-HD "Empire" Clips from both satellite services- Dish and DirecTV.

Although they were far too brief, the Dish version clearly looked better, and, another user confirmed to me that he too got a glitch on the DirecTV R5000-HD "Empire" Clip at exactly the same point as I did.

So, DirecTV is at least part of the problem, not just for 169Time and the DTC100, but apparently for the R5000-HD as well.

BTW, I was born and raised in Montreal, so, when i see someone from North America spell "color" as "colour", I love it!

yeah I think the trouble with directv is they do not fully conform to the mpeg2 dvb standard. They started broadcasting before the standard was finalized from what I have read.

Originally posted by wildchild22
yeah I think the trouble with directv is they do not fully conform to the mpeg2 dvb standard. They started broadcasting before the standard was finalized from what I have read.

wildchild22

Yes, some people refer to it as MPEG 1.5 as opposed to MPEG 2.

Others wonder if D* will feel the need to change their MPEG standard or their 4PSK modulation scheme one day in a manner that might threaten any currently modified legacy D* STB's continuing viability.

It would seem unlikely as they must have several hundred thousand HDTV STB's out there now.

yeah and half are in Canada.

Originally posted by wildchild22
yeah and half are in Canada.

wildchild22

LOL, I am sure that would not amuse the Canadian satellite providers or the provincial or federal governments.

Originally posted by mkerdman

However, if there are any, I do agree that your dealer and 169Time, acting together, should have done more to make the situation right based on who received whatever portion of your $1,700 and could not deliver a working product.

Notwithstanding the foregoing.... "Notwithstanding the foregoing..." You must be kidding.

Originally posted by Ken H
"Notwithstanding the foregoing..." You must be kidding.

Ken

I did say somewhere in the thread that I was just another hack internet lawyer (with no license whatsoever), right?

Originally posted by Cliff Watson
You would think that 169time would be smart enough to come to the same conclusion to avoid Alan posting his story. Obviously, they are not, but this is not the main point.

The point is when dealing with 169time is caveat emptor, or in English, buyer beware.

Originally posted by mkerdman
Ken

I did say somewhere in the thread that I was just another hack internet lawyer (with no license whatsoever), right? My comment was not referring to your jargon, but to the idea that everyone should forget about the fact Alan was screwed out of $1700. Simply amazing.

Originally posted by mkerdman
Interestingly, I viewed the R5000-HD "Empire" Clips from both satellite services- Dish and DirecTV.

Although they were far too brief, the Dish version clearly looked better, and, another user confirmed to me that he too got a glitch on the DirecTV R5000-HD "Empire" Clip at exactly the same point as I did.

So, DirecTV is at least part of the problem, not just for 169Time and the DTC100, but apparently for the R5000-HD as well.



Murray,
Doh!, your right, there is a glitch on the EmpireDirectv.ts about 2 minutes into the clip (where he is playing the drum sticks). It is actually a reception glitch. Yea, Yea, I know sure... Sadly our system faithfull reproduces all reception glitches... We made this recording to compare D* to E*, not so much a "glitch free example" (new leaves on the trees + wind = glitch). Interestingly, when I was validating your claim, I ran it though Ron's (dr1394) mpeg analyzer. It showed no errors except for EOF when it finished. I'll PM Ron and ask him to take a look.

As to the difficulty of converting D* HDTV to MPEG2-TS, yes it is a pain, but resulting TS file is just as compatible as the 6000 TS file. The DSS MPEG HDTV is much more like DVB/ATSC Mpeg2-TS than the SD because it was done after DVB. To date I have been unable to re-mux D* SD mpeg back into something useful, but the D* HDTV stuff works great.

Lastly, How long is a reasonable clip? Most of the other uploads on Kevin's site are 2-4 minutes in length. This size fits nicely onto one CD-R. As many of the clips on Kevin's site will confirm, 2-4 minutes is enough time to see any glitches. I believe all the other clips in the "glitch free" directory are in fact glitch free. But if you find any decoder that does not play them correctly, please let me know and I'll fix it.


-R

R5000-HD,

Where can one get Ron's mpeg analyzer?? It is software right?

Thanks

Rew

For what it's worth, I tried all the "Glitch Free" files strictly on the Roku, as that's the decoder that has given a bunch of us fits of late. I did notice the slight glitch on the EmpireDirecTV file and assumed it was of the reception variety. But everything else played perfectly.

Great job R5000. Will anxiously await product release.

Originally posted by R5000-HD
Murray,
Doh!, your right, there is a glitch on the EmpireDirectv.ts about 2 minutes into the clip (where he is playing the drum sticks). It is actually a reception glitch. Yea, Yea, I know sure... Sadly our system faithfull reproduces all reception glitches... We made this recording to compare D* to E*, not so much a "glitch free example" (new leaves on the trees + wind = glitch). Interestingly, when I was validating your claim, I ran it though Ron's (dr1394) mpeg analyzer. It showed no errors except for EOF when it finished. I'll PM Ron and ask him to take a look.

As to the difficulty of converting D* HDTV to MPEG2-TS, yes it is a pain, but resulting TS file is just as compatible as the 6000 TS file. The DSS MPEG HDTV is much more like DVB/ATSC Mpeg2-TS than the SD because it was done after DVB. To date I have been unable to re-mux D* SD mpeg back into something useful, but the D* HDTV stuff works great.

Lastly, How long is a reasonable clip? Most of the other uploads on Kevin's site are 2-4 minutes in length. This size fits nicely onto one CD-R. As many of the clips on Kevin's site will confirm, 2-4 minutes is enough time On the other hand, to see any glitches. I believe all the other clips in the "glitch free" directory are in fact glitch free. But if you find any decoder that does not play them correctly, please let me know and I'll fix it.


-R

R5000-HD

Thanks for taking the time to review my limited findings.

As to what length of clip constitutes a good test, my experience is that on some material an LG 3410 or Samsung SIR-T165 can go 5-20 minutes playing most any 169Time clip perfectly, then hit an error from which point on it seems to continue to find other errors to the degree that the program becomes unwatchable.

On the other hand, MyHD and accessDTV, which both containing the Terralogic Janus Chip Set, error early and often.

I have not tested any software decoders extensively as they are of little interest me personally.

So, in my experience at least 30 minutes, certainly more than an FTP site can reasonably support, is required for a real torture test.

I prefer devices with integrated hardware decoders to PC's with video cards for HD playback, particularly those that can provide DVI output, such as MyHD, the LG 3410 or the Samsung SIR-T165.

Notably, the LG 3410 and it's excellent MPEG2 decoders and error correction, can play back all 169Time-Dish 6000 streams entirely glitch-free.

Separately, the LG 3410 can playback all 169Time-DTC100 streams glitch-free, except for HBOHD streams which are somehow flawed in a way that all the other D*-169Time-DTC100 channels are not.

I have had far poorer results with the Samsung SIR-T165, and, that unit also has the dreaded black/white crush phenomenon.

Will the R500-HD (hey that's you!) be able to record SD at it's native resolution of 480P (i.e. D* HBO-SD Channel 500, or E* HBO-SD Channel 300) in a proper 4:3 aspect ratio?

Originally posted by mkerdman
R5000-HD

Thanks for taking the time to review my limited findings.

Separately, the LG 3410 can playback all 169Time-DTC100 streams glitch-free, except for HBOHD streams which are somehow flawed in a way that all the other D*-169Time-DTC100 channels are not.

I have had far poorer results with the Samsung SIR-T165, and, that unit also has the dreaded black/white crush phenomenon.



Did you try the hbo_direct.ts clip on the LG? It should play perfectly on both?


Will the R5000-HD (hey that's you!) be able to record SD at it's native resolution of 480P (i.e. D* HBO-SD Channel 500, or E* HBO-SD Channel 300) in a proper 4:3 aspect ratio?


Yes and No... The R5000-HD records E* SD just fine, but it's 480i not 480p, that's what E* sends. I'll upload an E* SD clip when I get a chance. D* is a lot harder, I have not figured out how they time the SD video, so I can't convert it. It's not on my todo list because D* SD quality is poor, but I am still curious.

Also, since the aspect ratio is flagged in the mpeg data, your player will determine how it's played back. E.g. if you played an E* SD clip on MyHD it would say "4:3 640x480i" for HBO and "4:3 504x480i" for AT60 channels

-R

[QUOTE]Originally posted by R5000-HD
Did you try the hbo_direct.ts clip on the LG? It should play perfectly on both?

R5000-HD

As I recall, that clip was not strictly HD, but a 480i/P between programming HBO promo only transmitted at 1080i, so, I did not put it through it's paces with all the different hardware available to me.

Originally posted by mkerdman
[QUOTE]Originally posted by R5000-HD
Did you try the hbo_direct.ts clip on the LG? It should play perfectly on both?

R5000-HD

As I recall, that clip was not strictly HD, but a 480i/P between programming HBO promo only transmitted at 1080i, so, I did not put it through it's paces with all the different hardware available to me.

Yes the original source was upconverted by HBO to 1080i, but as far as the decoders are concerned it's 1080i. If you run it through TSreader, it will describe the clip as 14.2Mb video, 1080i 16:9. I chose the clip because it clearly showed it was from HBO. For HBOHD, as far as the D* distribution and the 169/R5K is concerned, it's a 1080i HD signal. I.e. SD upsamples on HDHBO are not sent at a lower bit rate, so the glitch problem won't be less with upconverted SD content.


On another note... In a previous post, you said you could clearly see the difference in quality between the EmpireDirect and EmpireDish clips. I'm using a MyHD100 connected to a Hitachi Super High resolution HDTV studio monitor and I can't tell. Initially the Dish version looked more grainy, but the more I look at them, the more they look the same. The clips are from the exact same piece of film (notice the white blips that show up on his black sweater). It's amazing to me that there is a 5 Mbit difference in bit rate (TSreader: 17.2Mb vs 12) that is not very noticeable in PQ.

-R

I think that it is difficult to assess the quality of film source material with all the grain present in the original film. At first, I thought that I saw a difference between the D* and the E* "Empire Records" clips, but now I'm not so sure. A better comparison might be 1080i video source material.

In my recent D* recordings with 169time, I have frequently not been able to get much lossless compression from the streams (1% or 2%), when I archive the recordings to DDS tape. This contrasts to the at least 20% compression that I used to get archiving Dish 5000 recordings.

I find it fascinating that the D* clip compressed so much more than the E* clip. What's going on here?

Originally posted by R5000-HD
Yes the original source was upconverted by HBO to 1080i, but as far as the decoders are concerned it's 1080i.

On another note... In a previous post, you said you could clearly see the difference in quality between the EmpireDirect and EmpireDish clips. I'm using a MyHD100 connected to a Hitachi Super High resolution HDTV studio monitor and I can't tell. Initially the Dish version looked more grainy, but the more I look at them, the more they look the same. The clips are from the exact same piece of film (notice the white blips that show up on his black sweater). It's amazing to me that there is a 5 Mbit difference in bit rate (TSreader: 17.2Mb vs 12) that is not very noticeable in PQ.

-R

R5000-HD

Instinctively, it seems a clip from The Soprano's or some other clearly HBO HD programming might have been preferable.

Yet, I can agree that if it was transmitted at 1080i by HBO-E*/D* a glitch would be glitch, no matter what was on the screen.

I viewed the Empire clips on a 1280 x 720P DLP projector as well as a 1366 x 768 (WXGA) Plasma and used a MyHD 120 DVI output as the playback source.

I found the black level deeper, the contrast sharper and the color better saturated on the E* version of EmpireRecords.

Another user independently confirmed to me he felt the same when viewed on his CRT HDTV.

Similarly, I prefer the 169Time results from a Dish 6000 to a DTC100.

However, the PQ debate as between E* and D* will never end, and, the difference is small to be sure.

On balance, I would like to see 30 minutes of a 1:78 "full" screen HBOHD film like Terminator 3, or similar, to best appreciate the R5000-HD.

It has been a while since I looked at the MPEG2 spec but I seem to remember that the information in the headers describes the possible maximum data transmission rate in the transport stream and that this information is there to help decoders. This means that the ACTUAL transport stream data transmission rate may be less.

A long time ago I posted the information from the Directv HBO headers and it was some ridiculous transmission rate - it had nothing to do with the actual transmission rate.

Perhaps the numbers that TSReader is reporting is the information from the header and not the actual rate?

Question????

Why can't 169time or new 5000 system's record the SD transport stream??

I have 169time and this has always mystified me as to why it can only record HDTV channels. Can someone explain??

Sure would be nice to have one-for-all!

Thanks
Rew

Originally posted by Rew452
Question????

Why can't 169time or new 5000 system's record the SD transport stream??

I have 169time and this has always mystified me as to why it can only record HDTV channels. Can someone explain??

Sure would be nice to have one-for-all!

Thanks
Rew

I'm sure there is a technical reason behind it, but I've always wondered the same thing myself.

Originally posted by Rew452
Question????

Why can't 169time or new 5000 system's record the SD transport stream??

I have 169time and this has always mystified me as to why it can only record HDTV channels. Can someone explain??

Sure would be nice to have one-for-all!

Thanks
Rew

The R5000 can record the SD feeds from DISH. Not from DirecTV. I assume it has to do with DSS vs. DBS in some way, but not sure.

Originally posted by Rew452
Question????

Why can't 169time or new 5000 system's record the SD transport stream??

I have 169time and this has always mystified me as to why it can only record HDTV channels. Can someone explain??

Sure would be nice to have one-for-all!

Thanks
Rew

The 169time does record SD. But with the current software it only works for programs using AC3/DD sound. When recording non-AC3 SD, I get picture but no sound. Seems like they could solve that in the future it they really wanted to.

Guys

Lets keep the R5000 out of this thread just as we should keep the 169time out of the R5000 thread.

Please keep this to the 169time topic.

Thank you.

Don, you are right. I do not touch ANY 169time customer stuff. Yep, I do not work for them. I did do the avx-1 OS for free. I do testing for Richard on various parts when he asks me. Yep, he is a very close friend.
And I do know that Bellvu has issues with 169time stuff!! I think it may be the same decoder type issue. Lets keep our fingers crossed Richard will deliver the upgrade soon!!

Dave

Originally posted by h2ofun
... I did do the avx-1 OS for free. ..


This is the first time I heard of this - was this made public before? Just curious...

Kevin, not sure of your question.

I do know I had posted that I had stuff that would allow folks to build their own AVX-1 and do kernel mods to make it a PVR. But, no one was interested.

I know Richard is working to make the s/w such that folks can make their own avx-1. Not sure how far he will open it up.

Yep, if I was not part of the team, there would possibly be no avx-1.
It took a lot of work.

Oh well, will see whats next in the old cookies. :o)

Dave

One real nice use for the just released FireBus™ DTV Recorder Version 1.0 might be if this works with the 169Time STB's.

If you have a 169Time device and are reading this, consider downloading the trial below and see if you can capture the 169Time streams.

-------------------------------------

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3972193#post3972193

Vividlogic, Inc. is pleased to announce the release of FireBus™ DTV Recorder Version 1.0. This software allows you to record and playback DTV movies (HD and SD Unencrypted movies/content only) using the PC you already own.

FireBus™ DTV Recorder Version 1.0 may be downloaded from the following URL: http://www.vividlogic.com/products/...wnload_now.html

The software allows evaluation for a period of 30 days from the date of installation. During the evaluation period, you can record HD/SD contents in the clear for a duration of 30 minutes only. If you like the software, you may purchase the full version from http://store.yahoo.com/vividlogicusa/index.html and activate it.

Thank you very much for your patience and valuable feedback during the Beta testing. We look forward to your continued feedback so that we can continue to improve the product. Please write to us at support@vividlogic.com

Sincerely,
support@vividlogic.com

-----------------------------------------

Murray,

I get a "File not Found" message when going to the link you provided for the trial version. Do you have it right?

OK, I found the download page here: http://www.vividlogic.com/products/default.html

Im curious if it will playback the AVX files glitch free.
If it does Ill be able to finally archive all my tapes to the PC and not have to rely on the JVC to play them back.

Dave if you try this please let us know.

Thanks!

Alan,

I would try it with AVX files, but I no longer have my 169Time setup, so I can't test it. Unless you mean to try it with some of the tapes I have recorded from the 169time setup?

I absolutely LOVE that sticky signature area at the botom of your posts...too funny:D!!! I think I'll hold off calling unless I absolutely have to:rolleyes:

Dave

Yes try it with the AVX recorded tapes if you can.

Thanks for the signature approval:)

Originally posted by DHarp193
Murray,

I get a "File not Found" message when going to the link you provided for the trial version. Do you have it right?

DHarp193

Try this URL:

http://www.vividlogic.com/products/dtvr_download_now.html

Originally posted by mkerdman
One real nice use for the just released FireBus™ DTV Recorder Version 1.0 might be if this works with the 169Time STB's.

If you have a 169Time device and are reading this, consider downloading the trial below and see if you can capture the 169Time streams.


I downloaded and installed the software. What would be the connection process be for 169Time.
I tried plugging my PC into a second FireWire port on my AVX-1 and it stopped working (looking for HDVR). It took over an hour to get it working again. I finally powered everything down (pulled the plugs) and did an "I" reset on my 30K. It's now working again and am reluctant to screw it up again. Need suggestions.

JVC 30K, Custom built AVX-1, MDD-201 HD Decoder with 169Time Mod, 4DTV 920.

I installed the Firebus DTV Recorder software and tried playing two files through the DTC-100 and JVC 30k decoders using the "Broadcast Feature." One file was recorded from OTA with a Fusion card and the other file was recorded with a 169time avx-1 from HDNet Movies.

I had problems playing both files on both decoders. The DTC-100 decoder showed significant video glitches with both files, although the audio played well. The JVC 30k decoder could not display any video, although the audio sounded fine with both files.

Needless to say, I am not inclined to test the software any more after this initial test. I'll stick with DVHSTool. Thanks leszek and ricka.

Agreed. Once you get 169Time setup working (thanks again stjr), it seems to like to be left alone. I have a 30000 in the chain for archive playback, but everything is recorded to pc, and then archived onto cheap $.50 DVD-RW's.

I am having problems with timer recordings for DirecTV channels using the 169time system. I do understand the AVX-1 manual doesn't indicate timer recordings will work reliably so it isn't really a 169time problem but timer recordings will make this system so much more valuable for me.

My DTC-100 powers on my JVC 30000U, starts recording, stops recording, and powers off the 30000U just fine. If my recording is scheduled about 2 hours or less ahead, it almost always works correctly. If it is 6 hours or more, then the firewire connection will likely have flaked out and the recording will be blank. Since I don't have any 4-pin to 4-pin cables, I am not able to use both firewire ports on the D-VHS or DTC-100 and use both firewire ports on the AVX-1. I also know this is the least preferred method to connect the three devices according to the manual and using both VCR firewire ports is most preferred. Other than the firewire connection flaking out, this connection method works great. If the firewire connection has been stable throughout the recording, the recording will be of very high quality with very few and maybe zero glitches introduced by the AVX-1.

I do not use or even access the DTC-100 after I set the timed event and leave the 30000U off with the proper I-link selected and the connection verified as good before powering down the VCR. Would purchasing a 4-pin to 4-pin cable and connecting the VCR in the middle solve these problems? Other than losing the firewire connection, it is working very well. If I playback a tape using the VCR in the link, it will likely flake out and the AVX-1 will need to be rebooted. I have another 30000U for playback so that isn't an issue.

Has anybody experimented with the various connection methods and determined the most reliable for timer events? Or does everybody set their alarm clock for 2:45AM when a 3:00AM recording is wanted and check out the firewire connection, reboot the AVX-1 if needed and hit record then try to go back to sleep?

Chris

Yes !!! The alarm clock always works... give yourself time on occasions/ rare I- connections don't work . Rare but I always have I-1 hooked and tape loaded then wait for show time and turn on Avix-1 and channel up to I-2 when it starts looking for HDTV.

Never tried timer. But have left unit connected and with I-2 plus picture on TV running OK just not recording and found after a long period , more than 3 hours , lost connection.

Not sure but believe sometimes station or transmission stream goes to SP or signal lost briefly and that may cause Avix-1 to lose connection / working.

I have not kept record and always try to record when I am there to " push Record" button.

Have had great success with excellent tapes. unless signal problems from DirectTV.

Originally posted by JBarrow
Yes !!! The alarm clock always works... give yourself time on occasions/ rare I- connections don't work . Rare but I always have I-1 hooked and tape loaded then wait for show time and turn on Avix-1 and channel up to I-2 when it starts looking for HDTV.

Never tried timer. But have left unit connected and with I-2 plus picture on TV running OK just not recording and found after a long period , more than 3 hours , lost connection.

Not sure but believe sometimes station or transmission stream goes to SP or signal lost briefly and that may cause Avix-1 to lose connection / working.

I have not kept record and always try to record when I am there to " push Record" button.

Have had great success with excellent tapes. unless signal problems from DirectTV.

It is also my theory that the transmission stream changing to SD might cause a flake out. I thought first that channel changes did it and left it on the channel to be recorded. My timer events are working about 50/50 now and the failure is always the firewire connection has flaked out, either before or during the recording. Timer recordings made during the night when I am sleeping have always worked when the recording began properly. Timer recordings during the day can flake out in the middle so I believe something else causes the connection to fail also. I am going to try setting the DTC-100 to HDNet Movies regardless of channel the scheduled recording is on as that will avoid the change to the SD stream. It might be that a channel change will cause the firewire connection to fail and that won't work either. This is the clunkiest recorder I have ever used but so far nothing else works to record DirecTV via firewire so I guess this is a masterwork comparatively.

Chris

I am very happy to have the ability to record HDTV Movies.

###$$$$ IT IS THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN and not cheap $$$$

Unless you have lots of $$$$$$ and buy professional equipment.

Chris, was not clear what type of timer you are trying.
I used an hand held and never had an issue.

Dave

Dave,

He is using the timer built into the DTC-100 with the IR dongle in front of the JVC to turn it on and start recording.

My connections are not flakey, although the longest period of time that I have continuously run my avx-1 has been about 12 hours. It doesn't matter whether the show recorded is HD or SD. I am using the A5 software.

I connect as follows: avx-1 > DTC-100 HDVR > JVC 30k. Usually, I am recording to my PC, so I add the PC at either end of the chain. I have used the DTC-100 timer to start the recording on the JVC and it usually works, but I haven't used this method very often.

If I recall correctly, I had to experiment to get the best stable configuration. YMMV.

Originally posted by DHarp193
Dave,

He is using the timer built into the DTC-100 with the IR dongle in front of the JVC to turn it on and start recording.


I have used this method with 100% success with both he DTC100 and the Dish 6000.

Some tips:

Have you successfully run a test to confirm you have selected the correct IR code for the JVC 30K in the DTC100 Setup Menu? (I belive the DTC100 VCR Setup Menu has a diagnostic test to confirm your VCR code selection)

Do you have the DTC100 IR emitter placed properly for operation with the JVC 30K?

Did you use the IR dongle that came with the JVC 30K?

If you are using SVHS tape, it is important that you press "DVHS" on the JVC 30K and of course leave it tuned to the proper "I" channel and observe the visually confirmed AVX1 HD satellite signal.

The DTC100 turns the JVC 30K on, starts recording, stops recording and turns the JVC off.

Be sure that the JVC 30K is left OFF for the DTC100 IR dongle to work correctly.

Originally posted by h2ofun
Chris, was not clear what type of timer you are trying.
I used an hand held and never had an issue.

Dave

Dave,

I am using the DTC-100 timer. It powers on the JVC D-VHS, starts recording, stops recording, and powers down just great. The problem is, I often lose a good firewire connection before the recording completes, usually before it begins. Otherwise it is fine. I am running 08B3 software and from reading your posts, it appears that 08A5 might be better at maintaining a good connection or automatically syncs the connection quickly after it has been lost. Also, as I stated I am using both firewire ports of the AVX-1 since I had high quality 6-pin to 4-pin firewire cables but no 4-pin to 4-pin cables. It might be that using both ports on the JVC D-VHS will result in a more stable connection, I don't know. I did read in the AVX-1 manual that my method of connection is the least desirable, although I can't imagine why since the stream goes from the DTC-100 to AVX-1 to D-VHS. It seems to me, the connection sequence either should not matter or my order would be best.

Chris

"There are ways to play back 169time recordings flawlessly on a PC (or at least as good as the JVC 30K).
Try downloading a trial version of MainConcept Mpeg Encoder, or any of their other products.
They are bundled with a directshow decoder filter that handles 169time just fine. You also need to setup Zoom Player to use that filter.
Also go into the filter's properties and make sure it's set to display frames with errors.
Those little flashing pixels at the bottom of the screen are errors that cause other decoders to glitch/pause.
This filter at least has an option to make it display the corrupted data like the JVC 30K.
Hopefully once Richard fixes these errors, the streams will be playable on more decoders. If you need more help setting up the filters, please post in the official 169time thread so we don't pollute this topic.

-Mark

Wizziwig"


Mark,

I am trying to use your idea above, and have, installed MainConcept Encoder 1.42, but, I cannot see how to enable the MainConcept or DirectShow filter in ZoomPlayer Pro 3.31.

How/where should I see this option and how is it named /selected?

Chris, I would get the latest s/w. It does not sound like it has anything to do with the dongle.

Have you called Richard and worked with him on your issue. He is very good for customer support.

Dave

Originally posted by mkerdman
"There are ways to play back 169time recordings flawlessly on a PC (or at least as good as the JVC 30K).
Try downloading a trial version of MainConcept Mpeg Encoder, or any of their other products.
They are bundled with a directshow decoder filter that handles 169time just fine. You also need to setup Zoom Player to use that filter.
Also go into the filter's properties and make sure it's set to display frames with errors.
Those little flashing pixels at the bottom of the screen are errors that cause other decoders to glitch/pause.
This filter at least has an option to make it display the corrupted data like the JVC 30K.
Hopefully once Richard fixes these errors, the streams will be playable on more decoders. If you need more help setting up the filters, please post in the official 169time thread so we don't pollute this topic.

-Mark

Wizziwig"


Mark,

I am trying to use your idea above, and have, installed MainConcept Encoder 1.42, but, I cannot see how to enable the MainConcept or DirectShow filter in ZoomPlayer Pro 3.31.

How/where should I see this option and how is it named /selected?

Ok, this will take a while (the menus as very deep in ZP). :)

1) Go to player options.
2) In the list on the left side, select "Filter Control"
3) Click on the "Customized Media Playback" tab on the right/top of screen.
4) Enable checkbox for "Customized Media Playback".
5) Select "Source Filters & Splitters" tab.
6) You will see 2 panels. The right one is called "Audio/Video Splitters". Select Mpeg2 Transport and click "Configure" button below.
7) You get a "Configure Splitter" dialog box. From the drop-down list, select a splitter that you have installed. The ones that tend to work are Elecard/Moonlight, MainConcept, or OpenSource. If your video hangs, try selecting a different one. All are free to download. Click on "Verify" button to make sure the splitter is installed correctly. Then hit ok to get back to main panel.
8) On main panel, select the "Audio & Video Decoders" tab. Repeat the procedure from step 7) for the AudioDecoder (AC3) and Video Decoder (Mpeg2 video). For the video one, make sure you selected "MainConcept Mpeg Video Decoder". The audio one will depend on what's on your system - usually the ones bundled with DVD player software work ok. There is also a free AC3 filter out there.
9) When you're on the video decoder configuration step above, make sure you also hit "Filter Properties" for the MainConcept filter. This will allow you to enable displaying frames with errors.
10) This step if optional but may help in debugging. On the "Customized Media Playback" tab, select "Settings & Renderers". Enable checkbox for "Show Customized Media Graph creation errors".

That should do it. There are several other relevant settings but I'm assuming their default values will be ok on your system. Let me know if you get stuck. I know it took me a long time to figure this out initially. For me (using Dish 6000), the results on progressive HBO_HD film based content (24fps) have been as good as the JVC. For non-progressive shows, it's not as good because the de-interlacing sucks on all decoders that are compatible with 169time.

Good luck!

-Mark

Mark

I will give it a whirl.

I have had success playing TS streams on my Toshiba Tablet PC which I use for HD travel playback, using Elecard MPEG2 Player v2.1 & Elecard Decorder v2.0

However, that combo will not play ABC 720P 3-Channel Multicast correctly, even when I select only AC3-1 and Video 1

I get halting video and audio throughout.

EDIT:

Plus, I have not tested this setup with 169Time files, only OTA captures with a PCI Card.

Originally posted by mkerdman
Mark

I will give it a whirl.

I have had success playing TS streams on my Toshiba Tablet PC which I use for HD travel playback, using Elecard MPEG2 Player v2.1 & Elecard Decorder v2.0

However, that combo will not play ABC 720P 3-Channel Multicast correctly, even when I select only AC3-1 and Video 1

I get halting video and audio throughout.

EDIT:

Plus, I have not tested this setup with 169Time files, only OTA captures with a PCI Card.

That sounds like a demuxer problem. Elecard is usually pretty good about that sort of thing. I don't use their player app but I think it has some controls for selecting the sub-channel. I also think Zoom Player 4.0 has added some method for sub-channel selection when using the "open source mpeg splitter". There is more info about that topic in the HTPC forum.

I never record OTA to my PC since OTA generally means commercials. I prefer to record that sort of stuff on the JVC so that I can use fast forward feature. Seeking on HD streams seems to be busted on most demuxers so I can't reliably do it on the PC. If the 169time bitstream errors ever get fixed, I'm definitely switching to some sort of hardware PC decoder (MyHDTV, etc.).

-Mark

Originally posted by Wizziwig
I never record OTA to my PC since OTA generally means commercials. I prefer to record that sort of stuff on the JVC so that I can use fast forward feature. Seeking on HD streams seems to be busted on most demuxers so I can't reliably do it on the PC. If the 169time bitstream errors ever get fixed, I'm definitely switching to some sort of hardware PC decoder (MyHDTV, etc.).

-Mark

Mark,

All of the popular PCI HD PVR cards (accessDTV, MyHD and Fusion) can very reliably record & play OTA HDTV and skip commercials with a lot less wear and tear than your JVC will endure using fast forward and tape.

Playback of 169Time transport streams by any of these cards will operate similarly if and when the AVX1 software allows for broader decoder compatibility.

Originally posted by h2ofun
Chris, I would get the latest s/w. It does not sound like it has anything to do with the dongle.

Have you called Richard and worked with him on your issue. He is very good for customer support.

Dave

I am going to try the new software today. Does anybody know if 08A5 results in more errors than 08B3? Using 08B3, I am getting great recordings when the firewire disconnect problem doesn't occur before the timer recording completes. I watched a couple and each only had a couple of noticeable errors in the data. The recordings were decoded nearly flawlessly by an HM-DH30000U. I don't have any other decoder to try but reading about errors in data from the AVX-1 made me concerned the recordings might not play correctly.

Chris

Chris,

If it does result in more errors, you could always just put the B3 software CD back in the AVX-1 and use that until 169Time comes out with a better one.

Has anyone tried to put their 169time built AVX into a different case? I was going to do this, but when I got ready to move things over, I unplugged the mainboard power connector (20pin) from the case from 169time, and one of the pins was missing compared to the 20pin connector on my new micro ATX case. According to the ATX case info, it was the -12V leg. Now that seems very unlikely. Is there something special about a Via C3 chip/mobo? Or can they take a normal power supply connection? And maybe my Antec manual was just wrong?

Originally posted by Kirby Baker
Has anyone tried to put their 169time built AVX into a different case? I was going to do this, but when I got ready to move things over, I unplugged the mainboard power connector (20pin) from the case from 169time, and one of the pins was missing compared to the 20pin connector on my new micro ATX case. According to the ATX case info, it was the -12V leg. Now that seems very unlikely. Is there something special about a Via C3 chip/mobo? Or can they take a normal power supply connection? And maybe my Antec manual was just wrong?

Kirby,

Almost any Micro ATX Case and Power Supply should work.

In an effort to use the LG 3410 DVR to watch The Grid 2-hour TNT-HD premiere and skip the commercials, I recorded the show on DVHS from my Dish 6000-169Time STB, and, copied it to the 3410's hard drive only to find unwatchable amounts of video glitching.

HBOHD, SHOHD and other channels recordings do not glitch when similarly transferred from 169Time Dish 6000 DVHS made tapes, and, then played on the 3410 hard drive.

However, the 3410 played The Grid 2-hour TNT-HD premiere glitch-free directly from the JVC 30K DVHS tape over 1394 DVI outputs.

Anybody have any similar observations or problems with TNT-HD?

I'm not able to record TNT-HD via my Dish 6000 169time receiver directly to PC, then view via the PC. When editing the files with HDTVto MPEG2, the files just show a blank screen,even though the file is the standard 140mb in size.

Originally posted by KevinYee
I'm not able to record TNT-HD via my Dish 6000 169time receiver directly to PC, then view via the PC. When editing the files with HDTVto MPEG2, the files just show a blank screen,even though the file is the standard 140mb in size.

Kevin

This is so weird.

As I said before, the 3410 played The Grid 2-hour TNT-HD premiere glitch-free directly from the JVC 30K DVHS tape over 1394 DVI outputs.

So, the LG 3410 decoders are happy to display the signal, but only if streamed live/directly from a JVC 30K.

I know that the Nextcom R5000-HD will record TNT-HD just fine, FWIW.

Demo files of recorded TNT-HD were posted as proof of compatibility earlier.

Originally posted by KevinYee
I know that the Nextcom R5000-HD will record TNT-HD just fine, FWIW.

Demo files of recorded TNT-HD were posted as proof of compatibility earlier.

Kevin

I read that some of the cable 1394 solutions were also having trouble with TNT-HD in particular.

They must be doing something differently than most other HD broadcasters.

I found that if I keep the JVC VCR cool, I don't lose firewire communication between VCR and AVX-1. Now I am keeping the 30000U on power save mode. The DTC-100 powers it on and it stays on the correct firewire port even if it was left off and on power save mode. When it wasn't on power save mode, it stayed hot even when off. My timer recording problem seems to be fixed as a result or at least at a minimum I am now above the 50% ratio I was dealing with previously since 4 in a row worked without failure.

Chris

My first AVX-1 that I built has just died out, and so I built another one. When I try to boot up the CD, it starts booting and once it get's to the CD-ROM info, it stops at this error message that says," Kernel PAnic: UFS: Unable to mount root fs on 16:00". Anyone know what that means? Thanks.

Originally posted by Largo
My first AVX-1 that I built has just died out, and so I built another one. When I try to boot up the CD, it starts booting and once it get's to the CD-ROM info, it stops at this error message that says," Kernel PAnic: UFS: Unable to mount root fs on 16:00". Anyone know what that means? Thanks.

Do you have a hard disk and/or floppy in it???
If so, disable all drives but the CD and re-try.

I got it to work, I still had primary enabled on IDE channel. Thanks.

I would like to consolidate my HD sources by dropping DirecTV and keeping only Dish Network because at this point for my purposes their HD programming simply duplicates each other.

Although DirecTV seems like they will have all the four major broadcast networks available in HD by Fall, I already get great local OTA reception, so, Dish is fine for me.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=430160&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

So, I wonder if anyone has a 169Time modified Dish 6000 that they would swap with for my recently 169Time modified RCA DTC100 for which I have the original HD remote, box, manual, RGB-to-Y,Pb,Pr Component Transcoder, and the IR VCR Remote Control "mouse" to make DirecTV HD-Satellite unattended scheduled recordings with a D-VHS deck?

Please PM me if you would like to swap your 169Time Modified E* STB for my D* STB.

I need some help. I just received my DTC100 back from 169 Time because I thought there was something wrong with the HDVR modification. Now that I received it, I am still having the same problem with it. But now I am thinking it is my JVC deck( the decoder on it). So, I just wanted to know if someone can explain how to record directly to PC without having the JVC deck in the firewire daisy. This way, if I can record the stream, I know for sure it is my JVC. If not, I have to contact 169time again. Thanks for your help.

There's been a lot of threads on this. I had trouble getting my DTC100 to record directly to PC, so I switched to the 169time modded Dish 6000, and had much better results with that STB. Others here had similar results. YMMV.

I just read some post about that. I just want to make sure that it is my JVC deck and not my STB which I just got back. If not, for sure will have to get the R-5000.

Originally posted by Largo
I just read some post about that. I just want to make sure that it is my JVC deck and not my STB which I just got back. If not, for sure will have to get the R-5000.

Many of us HD archivers will be purchasing the R-5000 for that very same reason.

Anyone try recording the Olympics yet? No luck here using Dish. The AVX seems fine (scrolling the usual audio/video numbers) but the JVC 30K just shows a white screen on that input. Recording directly to PC is also not working - transport stream contains no PID's.

Same here wizzy, no luck. Tried DVHSTool and CapDVHS. The volume of data in the files is not random, but I can't make any sense out of any of it. If I didn't know any better, I'd say these files are unmounted.

I just test recorded and played the Olympics with my 169time setup on D* CH. 84 with D-VHSTool, and the seven minutes I recorded were fine.

I'd try but my NBC station isn't showing it in HD.

Steve,

You must have terrestrial 8VSB tuner. We only have 8PSK, and are pulling opening Oympics ceremonies as special event on 9425 I believe it is. Similar proiblem to TNTHD (speaking of which, has *that* ever been resolved).

Oh and Steve, thanks again for helping me get the archive to work properly. You really helped a great deal, and I am eternally grateful.

"You must have terrestrial 8VSB tuner."

I do, but that's not what I used to the Olympics on Ch. 84 from D*. However, I have been getting some pixellations on my recordings from HDNet Movies on D* lately when played through the JVC 30k decoder. Can anyone else confirm that?

I can confirm this, and that it is bad enough to crash HDTVto MPEG (various versions). Have found ways of tricking it, though. Mainly using the GUI version just for *.ts editing, and NOT to convert to mpeg2.

Originally posted by Capybara 320
I can confirm this, and that it is bad enough to crash HDTVto MPEG (various versions). Have found ways of tricking it, though. Mainly using the GUI version just for *.ts editing, and NOT to convert to mpeg2.

So, this may be no better, just different, than the problems reported with Dish HD lately.

some of those problems may be EMM's from Nagra1 and 2 interfering in the phase shift keying of that compression routine. don't know enough about it, but supposedly 8PSK will be Alladin permission only by the end of this month (right now it is bi permissional)

Originally posted by Capybara 320
some of those problems may be EMM's from Nagra1 and 2 interfering in the phase shift keying of that compression routine. don't know enough about it, but supposedly 8PSK will be Alladin permission only by the end of this month (right now it is bi permissional)

Capybara 320

Should that lead to a likelyhood of better, or worse, Dish HD stream quality next month?

Really don't know. Some claim Nagra2 is so complicated that there will be more artifact in the video (ie the IRD will be too slow for this type of authentication, as the receivers weren't designed for this originally). But that may just be sour grapes from hackers who will have to now subscribe.

I am trying to decide whether to record HD from Dish or DirecTV this weekend- truely a question of the lesser of two evils.

Originally posted by Capybara 320
Really don't know. Some claim Nagra2 is so complicated that there will be more artifact in the video (ie the IRD will be too slow for this type of authentication, as the receivers weren't designed for this originally). But that may just be sour grapes from hackers who will have to now subscribe.

So, will this possibly knock out all the hackers who have artificially driven up the eBay price of used Dish 6000"s?

You have the luxury of both, aay. But only one dish (feed). Stick with Echostar.

Murray,

Don't know, but my guess is that most "hackers" will be out of business for a very long time. To me, a 6000 is valuable because it, in and of itself, is a great receiver. Why would hackers drive up the price of that receiver - there are far cheaper ones?!?

Originally posted by Capybara 320
Murray,

Don't know, but my guess is that most "hackers" will be out of business for a very long time. To me, a 6000 is valuable because it, in and of itself, is a great receiver. Why would hackers drive up the price of that receiver - there are far cheaper ones?!?

Capybara 320

I garther that the 6000 can evidently be hacked, possibly both in the U.S. and Canada.

The prices went from $300-400 to $500-600 over the last 6 months.

I don't want to further this discussion mostly because I don't have or won't any hacked satellite STB's plus AVS doesn't need or want that kind of discussion, but, as I understand it, when DirecTV went to a more secure smart card and eliminated 100,000's of illegal cards, alot of the hackers turned toward the Dish service to ply their trade.

Originally posted by stjr
I just test recorded and played the Olympics with my 169time setup on D* CH. 84 with D-VHSTool, and the seven minutes I recorded were fine.

Just curious, can you run the file into TSReader Lite and report the bitrates? I think the reason it's not working on Dish is because they are transmitting this channel at 22 Mbps. That's way above the muxing rate of 19.4 that the 169time system uses for all recordings. Really unfortunate since this would make some killer reference material. I doubt we'll see such high bitrate HD again until HD-DVD comes out in a few years.

Regarding TNT_HD.... I hope you don't take offense, but who cares? There is practically no HD on that channel worth recording. I think I tried it once and it seemed to work when running directly through the JVC deck. If it's not working on PC, you probably just need to remux it with new proper PID's.

Originally posted by Wizziwig
Just curious, can you run the file into TSReader Lite and report the bitrates? I think the reason it's not working on Dish is because they are transmitting this channel at 22 Mbps. That's way above the muxing rate of 19.4 that the 169time system uses for all recordings. Really unfortunate since this would make some killer reference material. I doubt we'll see such high bitrate HD again until HD-DVD comes out in a few years.


Wizziwig,
The 22 Mbps reported by TSReader is not the actual bit rate it's the VBV bitrate. Take a look at HDnetMovies. you'll notice that the reported bit rate is 45Mbit!!!

As defined by ISO 13818-2 the bit rate described in the mpeg SEQ header is "The bitrate specified bounds the maximum rate of operation of the VBV as defined in C.3 of annex C."

and

"Since constant bitrate operation is simply a special case of variable bitrate operation there is no requirement that the value of bit_rate is the actual bitrate at which the data is supplied. However it is recommended in the case of constant bitrate operation that bit_rate should represent the actual bitrate." (ref ISO 13818-2, page 49 http://le-hacker.org/hacks/mpeg-drafts/is138182.pdf)

Actually the 22Mbps in the bit rate refers to the maximum rate the video data can be transfered from the main buffer (MB) to the elementary stream buffer (EB) in the VBV model. It is not the actual bit rate.

-R

Originally posted by R5000-HD
Wizziwig,
The 22 Mbps reported by TSReader is not the actual bit rate it's the VBV bitrate. Take a look at HDnetMovies. you'll notice that the reported bit rate is 45Mbit!!!

As defined by ISO 13818-2 the bit rate described in the mpeg SEQ header is "The bitrate specified bounds the maximum rate of operation of the VBV as defined in C.3 of annex C."

and

"Since constant bitrate operation is simply a special case of variable bitrate operation there is no requirement that the value of bit_rate is the actual bitrate at which the data is supplied. However it is recommended in the case of constant bitrate operation that bit_rate should represent the actual bitrate." (ref ISO 13818-2, page 49 http://le-hacker.org/hacks/mpeg-drafts/is138182.pdf)

Actually the 22Mbps in the bit rate refers to the maximum rate the video data can be transfered from the main buffer (MB) to the elementary stream buffer (EB) in the VBV model. It is not the actual bit rate.

-R

I know all that. :)

That's why I was suggesting TSReader specifically. It not only displays the sequence header bitrate (which as you say is often wrong) but also calculates the bitrate in real time for each PID - just look at the green bars.

I can't actually capture the Olympics channel on Dish so I had no idea what they were really broadcasting. The 22 Mbps number was something I heard mentioned during their tech forum show. Since you seem to be able to record it, can you confirm what average bitrates they are using? If it's over 19.4, how would one mux such a stream? Would it work on the JVC decoder?

To the person commenting about TNT_HD: I had my 169time system running today and briefly flipped to the channel. Recorded and played fine using JVC 30K/ Dish 6000. What exactly was the problem?

Originally posted by Wizziwig
I know all that. :)

Really! Very few people that I've talked with understand the VBV buffer model and how TS muxing is done w.r.t VBV. If you do understand iso13818-2 Annex C, I would very much like to talk to you... Please PM.


That's why I was suggesting TSReader specifically. It not only displays the sequence header bitrate (which as you say is often wrong) but also calculates the bitrate in real time for each PID - just look at the green bars.

I can't actually capture the Olympics channel on Dish so I had no idea what they were really broadcasting. The 22 Mbps number was something I heard mentioned during their tech forum show.

Ah... Got it, so you've never actually seen the real data. OK so the SEQ header says 22Mbit VBV bit rate.

Since you seem to be able to record it, can you confirm what average bitrates they are using?

The TSReader average bit rate bargraph shows 18.x Mbit. (I don't remember the exact number)

If it's over 19.4, how would one mux such a stream?

It's a tight fit to get it into a 19.392 rate.

Would it work on the JVC decoder?

MyHD, Roku, vlc, etc have no problems playing nonstandard TS bit rates. Balazer once told me that the Hipix can't play non ATSC bit rates (he was unable to play a 14.1Mbps file). The JVC will probably work, I've be able to record non standard bit rates. BTW the JVC actually records 19.392 at a 28.2Mbit rate.


-R

Originally posted by R5000-HD

Really! Very few people that I've talked with understand the VBV buffer model and how TS muxing is done w.r.t VBV. If you do understand iso13818-2 Annex C, I would very much like to talk to you... Please PM.


Ok, maybe I exaggerated - I'm certainly no expert in the field but I understand the main concepts well enough. :)


Ah... Got it, so you've never actually seen the real data. OK so the SEQ header says 22Mbit VBV bit rate.

The TSReader average bit rate bargraph shows 18.x Mbit. (I don't remember the exact number)

It's a tight fit to get it into a 19.392 rate.

MyHD, Roku, vlc, etc have no problems playing nonstandard TS bit rates. Balazer once told me that the Hipix can't play non ATSC bit rates (he was unable to play a 14.1Mbps file). The JVC will probably work, I've be able to record non standard bit rates. BTW the JVC actually records 19.392 at a 28.2Mbit rate.


Thanks for clarifying that. Your hardware is certainly looking good so far. I would definitely jump on it if I didn't have so much money invested in 169time gear. As it stands, I'll probably stick with them and hope they improve their software. In the meantime, I can always clean the recordings with my mpeg2 repair utility in case I need to play them on other devices.

Originally posted by Wizziwig
In the meantime, I can always clean the recordings with my mpeg2 repair utility in case I need to play them on other devices.

Wizziwig

When will we get to road test your mpeg2 Repair Utility?