Indianapolis / Terre Haute / Lafayette, IN - HDTV [Text View] - Page 11

timothy.arnett@v

02-05-06, 03:14 PM

I don't have the option of the outdoor antenna because I'm in an apartment. I was hoping to figure out how to get it with the indoor antenna like others have been able to do on here. Thanks for the ideas though.

I live in terre haute in the southend, I couldn't pick up channel 15 with my indoor ant. but when i moved it out to my attached garage, i was able to pick it up. you might try putting a long cable on it and move it around the room some times location in the room can make a big difference.

Good Luck
tim

Feddie

02-05-06, 03:17 PM

Can anyone confirm that WICD is sent out on channel 41? I was able to get up to 24, which isn't enough.

goldrich

02-05-06, 03:53 PM

Can anyone confirm that WICD is sent out on channel 41? I was able to get up to 24, which isn't enough.

Yes, WICD-DT is on ch. 41. Its analog is on ch. 15, so if your receiver remaps, it will show up as 15.1.

Steve

Feddie

02-05-06, 04:26 PM

sjanson

02-06-06, 12:16 PM

FYI,
Im in fishers with an indoor antenna in my basement. I receieve everything except WB4. I currently get a great picture/signal from UPN23.

Ken Myers

02-06-06, 06:38 PM

Charlie46227

02-06-06, 10:33 PM

Charlie and others looking at the CM 4228 antenna, here is some new info........

"FCC DTV planning factors are based on antenna gains of 4 dB, 6 dB and 10 dB for low-VHF (Channels 2-6), high-VHF (7-13) and UHF (14-69) respectively. Kerry Cozad of Dielectric measured the Channel Master Model 4228 eight-bay bowtie-with-screen UHF antenna and measured gains of approximately 3 dB, 9 dB and 15 dB for low-VHF, high-VHF and UHF. This UHF-only antenna exceeds the planning factor gain at both high-VHF and UHF!"

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/On-RF/2006.01.25-f_doug.shtml

Steve

I've had my 4228 up for a couple weeks now (south side of Indianapolis). Not had any dropouts yet. Picking up all the stations I expected (including 9=quite good!), even getting some I didn't expect = Kokomo. I've not tried to position the antenna for best reception yet. The 'strength meter' shows around 46 to 60 on most stations. I expected higher, but maybe it's a function of how the 'meter' is 'calibrated'. Oh, I am using a 12 db amp inside. Got it at Menards for only $8. Walmart wanted $20 for the exact same brand ! I took only the dish off of my old 'Dish network', used the bracket and put a 1 1/2" outside diameter metal post into it for the mast. Fit perfectly and if I want to angle the mast itself, I can do so with ease. I thought the antenna might be too heavy, but since I used anchors going into bedford stone (chimney), it ain't going anywhere. Super Bowl on 72" DLP HD was sweeet !! I am lucky. My brother in Findlay, OH shows only one digital station possibly available and it is over 40 miles away! Thought I'd pass on my experiences so far.

Charlie

pduncan

02-07-06, 06:40 AM

RWB

02-07-06, 10:32 AM

I gave up. I wasn't able to use a longer cable because my antenna has the cable integrated into the base. It is unfortunate that this city does not have ABC or believe in HD. If I were ever to need to advertise on TV, I would make it a point to the other stations that I would only go with WTHI because of HD. I hope everyone else can enjoy this in HD. :(

Freddie, what kind of antenna are you using? I've got a Zenith Silver Sensor you may borrow to see if it would help. I work on the east side of TH (where the Colts practice ;) ) so it wouldn't be a problem.

P.S....

Would anyone in the Terre Haute area like to get together for a home theater/forum meet since it seems there are a number of people locally? I know the Indy guys have had them in the past so maybe we could do the same here?

RWB

02-07-06, 10:36 AM

YES, YES! ADVERTISE! PLEASE ADVERTISE! <g>

and thanks.
Ken.

Problem is Ken many folks are getting the HDs, but still getting bad info on how to receive WTHI. The folks at HH***** do a decent job of it but don't count on CC or the big store at the mall.

Feddie

02-07-06, 12:54 PM

Freddie, what kind of antenna are you using? I've got a Zenith Silver Sensor you may borrow to see if it would help. I work on the east side of TH (where the Colts practice ;) ) so it wouldn't be a problem.

P.S....

Would anyone in the Terre Haute area like to get together for a home theater/forum meet since it seems there are a number of people locally? I know the Indy guys have had them in the past so maybe we could do the same here?
I have a RCA uhf/vhf antenna with a 25db amp available. I would be interested in seeing some home theater stuff if people have anything to show off. Since I just finished with my Ph.D., I haven't really had the time or money to have anything special for myself.

ARK27

02-07-06, 02:20 PM

You know what chaps my a$$. Time Warner cables HD advertising around Terre Haute. They advertise they have the most local channels in HD available.The only thing offered is PBS. :mad:

Retailers hype HD, the cable company hypes it, but when you get the equipment there is very little to watch. Its like going to see the grand canyon and finding out its only a foot wide. :(

Les Auber

02-07-06, 03:40 PM

Charlie,
The 'strength meter' for digital is a little different then analog. It's more an indication of signal quality. A strong signal with lots of multipath reducing the quality by upping the error rate can read lower then a weak signal that is clean and error free. I don't really understand exactly how they mix strength and error rate to get the output but there's more there then just calibration.

For the sake of all of our curiosity maybe one of the engineers that do this for a living can provide enlightenment?

Charlie46227

02-07-06, 04:28 PM

Hey Charlie,

You said you were south of Indy. Where are you at? I live just south of Columbus and am thinking about getting the 4228. (Also thinking about DB8, but understand it can't get high VHF like the 4228 does).

Southside of Indianapolis (between Southport and Greenwood) just off Shelby St. and Southport Rd. You're in a tough area as both Indy and Louisville are over 50 miles away. Looking at the position of the towers, you might want to consider a directional antenna and point one to Indy and the other to Louisville. I'm no expert so perhaps some others can advise. It would be sweet to pick up twice the sports games (blackouts in one area being broadcast in the other). In fact, even though I have my antenna pointing north, I did pick up a Louisville station that was perfect visually(my tuner shows it as analog but it looks better than that to me), but with no sound (odd, I think... why no sound?) I do pick up Kokomo with no problems at all, and that is 47 miles away. It is more hilly down your way, so of course YMMV. Maybe I'll point my antenna towards Louisville (92 miles away) or Terre Haute (73 miles) and see what it picks up. If it does decent you'd know for sure to get one. I'll try in a bit and get back with you.

I bought my 4228 online for $39.50 plus $16.75 FedEx from Warren (weekend special). Out of stock but said they'd get more in before the next weekend and they did, arriving on Saturday morning. I was happy with both their honesty and quick shipping.

Charlie

Charlie46227

02-07-06, 05:02 PM

Charlie,
The 'strength meter' for digital is a little different then analog. It's more an indication of signal quality. <snipped>

So, could that be why some DIGITAL signals look 'less than perfect' while other look extremely good? I have noticed CH 59 is always EXTREMELY good, while WB4 out of Bloomington is less than stellar. Thought it was just the quality of signal they were sending out.

Charlie

Feddie

02-07-06, 05:38 PM

Les Auber

02-07-06, 05:40 PM

Charlie,
That can be it exactly and what is in between can have a real affect to. Experimenting with antenna placement can help a lot but current success is no guarentee of future returns. I was getting WTTK-DT from the Indy tower at a stable 45 or so and a decent picture last summer. It's dropped down to around 10 and no picture. I haven't touched the antenna which is proctected from the elements in the attic. Be interesting to see if it comes back this summer.

If the less then stellar station you're getting has a signal that fluctuates a lot it may be an indication of multipath interference. On analog you'd see ghosts with digital it freezes and blocks up. A change in antenna location or direction might help.

Ken Myers

02-07-06, 07:15 PM

Problem is Ken many folks are getting the HDs, but still getting bad info on how to receive WTHI. The folks at HH***** do a decent job of it but don't count on CC or the big store at the mall.

I also find it somewhat amazing that ALOT of the DTV's, or at least the BIG screens are only 720! WHOOOAAA! I wonder how many are paying top dollar for their HDTV <DTV> and only getting 720 out of it! (I admit that I'm still watching at 480 with an STB!) I was at the big store at the mall a few weeks ago, and they only had about 3 or 4 DTV's that were true HD1080.
I think there is alot mystic smoke about DTV lurking out there. Something else... I know alot of folks can't put up outdoor antennas, but my plain ole RS $100 "standard VHF/UHF tv" antenna works quite nice for ALL my channels. I get TH, Bloom, INDY, Champaign, and sometimes Lafayette. Both analog and DT. I did wedge a 26 db mast mounted pre- up there. But I dont buy into the "HDTV ANTENNA" hype. We <the broadcaster> still have to cram that stream into a standard FCC alotted TV channel. You know, at that level, it's just RF! ........<stepping down off my soap-opera box>..... I'm done with my little rant <g>!

Charlie46227

02-07-06, 08:53 PM

Charlie,
That can be it exactly and what is in between can have a real affect to <snipped> .

I'm talking about JUST digital as all my digital looks better than analog. It's just that some stations look MUCH better than others. I realize that some are sending out a higher res. stream, but even at that, Bloomington looks worse than a DVD movie even though the stated resolution of the broadcast is 480. None of my digital blocks up or freezes using the 4228. However, looking at the meter, there is a LOT of fluctuation on the digital feed (from 0 to 80 but still no freezing, missing info/blocking.) I guess I was expecting the digital to be an 'all or none' proposition. I guess I'm just trying to figure out if the 'problem' is really at the broadcast end, or my end. Anyone from Bloomington get WB4 razer sharp, plasma screen like? (that's how 59 comes in here.) Part of the 'problem' may be that I'm running an XGA resolution 72" diagonal, but like I said, some stations look 'plasma-like' !

Hope this isn't 'wasted bandwidth' to the rest of you. If so, I apologize. Just trying to get a handle on this stuff.

Charlie

Les Auber

02-07-06, 09:28 PM

Charlie,
If your bouncing from 0 to 80 I'm surprised you get anything like a stable picture. Must be excellent error correction. Moving or reaiming your antenna might help some. And I am refering to strictly digital. You won't get ghosts on digital but the same thing that causes ghosting causes increased error rates in digital. Once it gets bad enough error correction doesn't work.

As to picture I don't get anything from Bloomington. Keep in mind that 480 is standard definition and is the same output as DVD. If it looks worse I'd suspect that station is converting their analog NTSC broadcast to digital. The digital conversion can't make the picture any better then it started. I've seen the Indy stations do this and the results even when upconverted to 720p or 1080i are rather variable and sometimes pretty bad.

Keep watching. When you get a real HD broadcast there won't be any question. If you get WXIN they do some true HD programs. The difference is not subtle. You might check out titantv.com They indicate which shows are HD. The rest even though broadcast digital are converted analog.

Ken Myers

02-07-06, 10:14 PM

I'm talking about JUST digital as all my digital looks better than analog. It's just that some stations look MUCH better than others.
Charlie

Hey Charlie, Ken here. I know most of the DT's have higher definition. Some however, do not tell you what resolution. Now I dont know for sure, but the scuttlebut around our station is that CBS is the only network offering 1080 HD. If you can get WISH-DT8 (9), or WTHI-10 (24) during Prime time, take a look at the resolution of the signal. About 90% of the time now, CBS is in true 1080HD. Tom might chime in here if I'm out of order on that. Not sure about the other networks, but I heard that NBC is 720. Plus station equipment can have a big influence on quality as well. Like it was said earlier, some stations may just simply simulcast their 480SD signal. AT this point, it's purely up to the stations/networks.
Ken.

Charlie46227

02-07-06, 10:18 PM

Charlie,
If your bouncing from 0 to 80 I'm surprised you get anything like a stable picture. <snip> The digital conversion can't make the picture any better then it started. <snip> When you get a real HD broadcast there won't be any question. If you get WXIN they do some true HD programs. The difference is not subtle. <snip> The rest even though broadcast digital are converted analog.

Thanks. I'm using a SIR 360 as a receiver. Do you know if there is a way to see how error correction a receiver is doing? Your response makes sense. I know DVD is actually slightly less than 480 (?) but hadn't even thought about the stations taking an analog signal and just 'up-converting' to whatever resolution. H-E-double hockey sticks ! That's like using digital zoom on a camera! I'm highly disappointed. Of course different algorithms would produce different perceived resolutions but not anything like a 'native' resolution. You are right about seeing a difference in true HD programming. 59 (WXIN) is superb! My biggest complaint when watching Bloomington is for the IU basketball games. I'm sure they're just upconverting the analog to 480 (or 720, I can't remember which). My HT projector can upconvert but like you say, 'garbage in, garbage out'. I'll have to check out the titanTV site. Thanks for the explanation. Don't know why I hadn't thought in those terms.

Charlie

RWB

02-08-06, 08:09 AM

Hey Charlie, Ken here. I know most of the DT's have higher definition. Some however, do not tell you what resolution. Now I dont know for sure, but the scuttlebut around our station is that CBS is the only network offering 1080 HD. If you can get WISH-DT8 (9), or WTHI-10 (24) during Prime time, take a look at the resolution of the signal. About 90% of the time now, CBS is in true 1080HD. Tom might chime in here if I'm out of order on that. Not sure about the other networks, but I heard that NBC is 720. Plus station equipment can have a big influence on quality as well. Like it was said earlier, some stations may just simply simulcast their 480SD signal. AT this point, it's purely up to the stations/networks.
Ken.

Many of the Colts games were in HD this year and it seems sporting events create the biggest WOW factor. It's impressive enough folks think my 4 year old RPTV blows away the many Plasma and LCD sets they have seen. If they only knew with a little patience what kind of picture they could get. Prices keep dropping, one of these days I'll step up to a plasma set and probably never leave the house.

As Ken pointed out the best example of HD I've ever seen was the comercial CBS use to run advertising "You are watching CBS in HD" (the one showing JAG, Everybody Loves Ray and CSI clips).

Ken, you guys need to setup a HD monitor in your window next to Ohio. Let the folks know what they are missing. I can only imagine peoples thoughts as they look at that picture while waiting forever on the trains to pass. :D

ARK27

02-08-06, 08:31 AM

Have you ever been able to talk to anyone at TWC about it?

I have called and asked when they would carry CBS in HD and their response was whenever WTHI would make it available. Below is actually on TWC's website. Which is completely false.

------------------------

Local HDTV—A Cable Exclusive
You can only get the HDTV programming offered on local stations with Time Warner Digital Cable.

damrodd

02-08-06, 09:26 AM

Many of the Colts games were in HD this year and it seems sporting events create the biggest WOW factor. It's impressive enough folks think my 4 year old RPTV blows away the many Plasma and LCD sets they have seen. If they only knew with a little patience what kind of picture they could get. Prices keep dropping, one of these days I'll step up to a plasma set and probably never leave the house.

You need to look at the SXRD. Talk about never leaving the house...

IndyJeff

02-08-06, 10:05 AM

Hey Charlie, Ken here. I know most of the DT's have higher definition. Some however, do not tell you what resolution. Now I dont know for sure, but the scuttlebut around our station is that CBS is the only network offering 1080 HD. If you can get WISH-DT8 (9), or WTHI-10 (24) during Prime time, take a look at the resolution of the signal. About 90% of the time now, CBS is in true 1080HD. Tom might chime in here if I'm out of order on that. Not sure about the other networks, but I heard that NBC is 720. Plus station equipment can have a big influence on quality as well. Like it was said earlier, some stations may just simply simulcast their 480SD signal. AT this point, it's purely up to the stations/networks.
Ken.

Well, "720" is also true HD. I think by 720 you mean 720p, which means 60 full frames of 720 lines per second (progressive scan), compared to 1080i which is alternating 540 odd/even lines (interleaving) 60 times per second. Many think 720P looks better for high-action video like sports where the image is changing very quickly, which is why FOX, ABC, and ESPN have chosen it over 1080i. 1080i will give you a higher effective resolution that is better suited for movies and content where the picture doesn't change as quickly.

Then of course there is 1080p, which is 60 full frames of 1080 lines per second. This represents the super-high end of HD gear that you can purchase right now. I'm not aware of any native source of 1080p images yet. Blu-Ray and HD DVD equipment will someday. I doubt cable and satellite will broadcast 1080p anytime soon, due to the massive bandwidth requirements for this much data per second (DirecTV is already watering down their current HD offerings due to bandwidth constraints).

coolray

02-08-06, 10:42 AM

I don't usually stay up late enough to catch all of it, but the new HD version of Saturday Night Live is also pretty impressive and far as a WOW picture is concerned. The first time I saw the HD broadcast of SNL, I swear I thought I was in the audience. FOX comes across as pretty impressive as well. ESPN HD does a pretty good job sometimes with their basketball games but even though I live in the hinterlands of Selma, Indiana, the OTA out here is still better most of the time over D*.

We are so far out in the sticks they will never have cable or broadband internet in my location, NEVER NEVER NEVER

coolray

jasonblair

02-08-06, 12:56 PM

Hey Charlie, Ken here. I know most of the DT's have higher definition. Some however, do not tell you what resolution. Now I dont know for sure, but the scuttlebut around our station is that CBS is the only network offering 1080 HD. While ABC, Fox, and ESPN are broadcasting in 720p, several other networks broadcast in 1080i besides CBS.

Most notably NBC, WB, and UPN. On cable, HBO, Showtime, Discovery, and UniversalHD are also in 1080i.

Of course none of that matters in Terre Haute, because WTHI is the only game in town as far as HD.

Feddie

02-08-06, 01:50 PM

To be fair, we have HBO, Showtime, and Discovery from the list of channels you mentioned. I watch more of the local networks so that is where I really miss the HD. As far as national channels, I wouldn't mind the MTV channel. I don't really need Universal, ESPN2 (unless they get hockey back), or any of the other current channels.

Charlie46227

02-08-06, 04:55 PM

Well, I do get all the major/semi-major networks in HD, either in 720P or 1080i so I guess I shouldn't really complain. I didn't really think I'd be able to tell that much of a difference compared to 480 since DVDs looked so good. But now with more information (thanks!) I at least know some of the parameters that are contributing to loss of visual quality in digital.
I haven't attempted to 'tweak' my antenna due to snow on the roof, but other than trial and error, is there a method to discerning whether multi-path or weak signal is contributing? Any cheap tools that would help in that regard?

Charlie46227

02-08-06, 05:09 PM

You need to look at the SXRD. Talk about never leaving the house...

He he. Yeah. At $10,000. I couldn't AFFORD to !! And if I did, my wife would probably THROW me out of the house. My 'cheapo' DLP (front) projector is doing just fine throwing a 72" image, thank you very much :-) Nice technology though !!

Charlie

(edit): ok, so maybe I could get a 70" for maybe half that. I'd still get the boot. :rolleyes:

Tom Weber

02-08-06, 05:29 PM

From a satellite industry Web site that I try to peruse a couple of times a week:

TOP STORY -- DirecTV CEO Chase Carey told Reuters that the company is in discussions with rival satellite TV operator EchoStar to create a U.S. wireless high speed Internet service. The companies hope a national broadband network would better position the DBS providers against cable operators that bundle internet, video and telephone services. DirecTV also announced a $3B share buyback plan.

So maybe you CAN get broadband internet in the hinterlands, in time.

Tom Weber
Engineering, WISH / WNDY / etc.

cd_iso

02-08-06, 07:11 PM

Testing OTA in the Wabash Valley... With a Winegard 9095p Yagi (they call it an HD9095P same UHF antenna 15 years ago all of sudden it's now labelled as HD I am sure for marketing purposes!?!) For the mast I used a 20 foot steel pipe with a channel Master rotor, approx 25 ft off the ground, Motorola HD101 OTA tuner, I receive the following channels;

02-01 WTWO-DT SD NDC 65 SIGNAL
10-01 WTHI-DT HD CBS 85 SIGNAL
15-01 WICD-DT HD ABC 70 SIGNAL
16-01 WUSI-DT SD PBS 75 SIGNAL
16-02 WUSI-DT SD PBS 75 SIGNAL
16-03 WUSI-DT SD PBS 75 SIGNAL
16-04 WUSI-DT SD PBS 75 SIGNAL
38-01 WFXW-DT SD FOX 68 SIGNAL

Someone else said the ABC affilliate out of Champaign seems to be in 720Progressive scan (though the Super Bowl really looked amazing) - whereas CBS HD is 1080interlaced and yes the shows do look better. My plan in the spring is to go with at least 40' tower, channel master vhf/uhf antenna, the Crossfire antenna, with the plug-in channel master pre-amp. If anyone has any antenna ideas for this area I would like to hear them. Never thought I would be going back to towers, antennas and OTA reception after doing away with all that several years ago! Oh, and I personally I stay away from Rat-Shack antennas (RS) since they only last a few years and aren't made very well (experience.)

thanks,
CD

Les Auber

02-08-06, 07:38 PM

Charlie,
If there's a way to skip trial and error in aiming an antenna I don't know it. Nor do I know of a way to get error rate out of any system. Sorry. When I positioned and aimed my antenna I simply went for the most stable and strongest signal I could get. Emphasis on stable. As to upconverting it depends on what it started as.

Film source can be quite good as can some of the better NTSC video. Indifferently recorded NTSC video can be pretty bad. Last years Indy 500 for example. I ended up watching the cable since the Tivo made it more convenient with no real difference in picture. AFAIK DVD comes out at 480i same as NTSC. Conversion in the digital domain to 480p or higher can come out quite good. I think the 480i part was a Hollywood suit thing since it was my understanding that the actual coding on the disk was 480p.

All,
IIRC the ATSC spec for 1080p was at 24 fps to keep bandwidth in check. I'm not sure where to fall in on the 720p vs 1080i question. 720p is a full frame of 720 pixels at 60 Hz versus 1080i being really two 540 pixel high half frames at 60 Hz so you get the full 1080 frame every 30 HZ. In the case of my projector it all ends up at 768p anyway so every time I think one looks better I end up changing my mind next time. I suspect the production quality and content makes as much difference as anything.

Feddie

02-10-06, 05:49 PM

UNIHD is now on channel 267 for TWC in Terre Haute. I assume it is Universal HD, even though what is currently on does not match with the website schedule.

IndyJeff

02-10-06, 07:28 PM

UNIHD is now on channel 267 for TWC in Terre Haute. I assume it is Universal HD, even though what is currently on does not match with the website schedule.

Comcast in Indianapolis has added Universal HD as well as of today (channel 208). As usual, no announcement through the cable box or anything... you just have to notice it's there.

Good timing for the NBC expanded Olympics coverage...

Jeff

IndyJeff

02-10-06, 09:23 PM

Feddie

02-11-06, 12:11 AM

According to the TWC thread, Universal HD is just going to be available for the Olympics. :rolleyes:

goldrich

02-11-06, 09:08 AM

You need to look at the SXRD. Talk about never leaving the house...

FWIW, what does Mark Cuban have at home? Find the answer here, along with some other interesting comments from Mark.

http://www.courant.com/technology/hc-hunt0210.artfeb10,0,4226523.column?coll=hc-headlines-technology

Steve

goldrich

02-11-06, 09:56 AM

OK, is it just my setup, or is the picture quality of the opening ceremony of the Olympics pretty bad on NBC? It's all blocky and pixellated, especially in the deep red colors.

Anyone else seeing this, or is it just me?

I only saw a little of last evening's coverage via WTHR-DT, but I noticed that, too. A lot of pixelation associated with even minor camera movement.

This morning I'm currently watching a hockey game on Universal HD via Bright House and I see very little pixelation, even with all the fast motion in a game like this. The PQ is very good, too. Since Bright House added Universal HD on Jan. 1, this channel seems to offer very good HD quality, even with some of the older movies presented.

Steve

IndyJeff

02-11-06, 09:13 PM

Well, we've gone from poor quality last night to nearly unwatchable tonight, with all the multi-second drop outs and flips between SD and HD.

Way to go, WTHR!

Les Auber

02-11-06, 09:19 PM

That confirms it's not just me then. I've been seeing the same thing.

IndyJeff

02-11-06, 09:29 PM

WTHR has had this dropout problem for 3 years, ever since I first tried HD back in 2003 or so.

sjanson

02-11-06, 09:36 PM

Anybody else getting really annoyed with WTHRs drop outs tonight...hell right now theyve gone back to the SD signal. What gives?

IndyJeff

02-11-06, 09:42 PM

Everyone should send some email to their engineering group and let them know how messed up their digital station is. My email:

To: alg@wthr.com
Subject: Contact WTHR

On WTHR-DT...

There are very frequent multi-second drop-outs in the Olympics coverage tonight (Saturday night). It's nearly unwatchable on your HD station due to these problems. It's also switched between HD and SD a few times.

Last night, during the opening ceremonies, the pixellation and macro blocking was very bad, even when there was minimal movement on the screen.

Please fix your technical problems. The Olympics are a big deal, and it would be a shame for WTHR and NBC to continue to give digital television a bad reputation (the previous summer Olympics were a fiasco in terms of digital television/HD coverage).

sjanson

02-11-06, 09:44 PM

I tried to call the station at 9:40 pm...all I got was a generic "the switchboard is closed" message with no option to get to engineering. Im still watching a horrible looking SD feed. I have emailed. What gives?

HDEye

02-11-06, 09:46 PM

FWIW - Picture on the Fort Wayne station is just as bad. Pixelation/blocking is rediculous and there are numerous dropouts tonight. Dropouts appear to be nationwide, based on comments in other threads. Someone said it was due to the blizzard on the east coast but I don't know if they are just speculating or if they have official information.

Does WTHR run a sub-channel? The Fort Wayne NBC affiliate (WISE) has a sub channel, so I wonder if that's the reason for the blocking (starving for bandwidth). I'd be interested to know if those markets with no subchannel on their NBC affiliate are also seeing such a bad picture.

sjanson

02-11-06, 09:49 PM

WTHR in Indy, does run one sub-channel...13.2...its their 24 weather channel. I suppose that weather could be the cause...but this is terrible. Are other cities in other parts of the country reporting the same problem?

Jim2928

02-11-06, 09:50 PM

Anybody else getting really annoyed with WTHRs drop outs tonight...hell right now theyve gone back to the SD signal. What gives?
We are experiencing the same problems with our affiliate here in Nashville Tennessee. It must be the network's problem. Jim

Les Auber

02-11-06, 09:51 PM

It's very possible that it's NBC that's dropped the ball not WTHR. Either way it still sucks and WTHR should hear about it.

HDEye

02-11-06, 09:52 PM

I've seen mention of dropouts in at least a half dozen other threads. My guess is that WTHR switched over to the analog signal so as to avoid the dropouts. We're still running the HD broadcast up here, with occasional dropouts. It's not quite as bad as it was a half hour ago though... Hopefully the worst is over.

sjanson

02-11-06, 09:54 PM

I went looking around and the first board I hit, St Louis, is reporting the same problem too. If its not the weather its a giant cover-up. Hell, a crawl would be nice..."Due to exterme weather conditions in the eastern portion of the United States, we are experiencing techinical difficulties. Please stand by as our techicians attempt to resolve the issues with our high definition feed". There, I even wrote the copy for them :)

sjanson

02-11-06, 10:03 PM

HD feed appears to have come back at 10:02...but there are still occasional drop outs...and signal appears to be at a lower resoultion (my built-in tuner does tell me the resolution). It just doesnt look as crisp as it did earlier.

sjanson

02-11-06, 10:07 PM

I spoke too soon...10:05 and and back to forced SD. This is dissapointing.

HDEye

02-11-06, 10:21 PM

They finally dropped to SD up here in Fort Wayne too. This sucks.

Les Auber

02-11-06, 10:22 PM

The SD isn't even up to SD standards. Remember DVD is SD and is much more clear then this. The skiing was particularly bad.

sjanson

02-11-06, 10:24 PM

The SD isn't even up to SD standards. Remember DVD is SD and is much more clear then this. The skiing was particularly bad.
Agreed...the SD signal Im reciveing on 13.1 looks like complete shiat.

sjanson

02-11-06, 10:33 PM

OTA HD feed is back at 10:33...lets hope it sticks.

IndyJeff

02-11-06, 11:02 PM

Good old analog technology isn't dead yet.... apparently! It's probably good that the digital deadline was extended... there are way too many glitches in digital TV still, in 2006, for it to be ready for the masses...

drsimnal

02-11-06, 11:40 PM

I have E* and with their MPEG-4 conversion I will be forced to give back my HDDVR 921 that I bought for 4 figures and lease a new receiver from them in order to access the channels they have added. Since I'm not too happy about this situation, I would like to know what HD channels (non-premium) that you get on cable here in Indy. I live in Marion county, in Pike township, just north of 86th and Lafayette. I used to get comcast, but I know their website lags behind significantly. Not sure if any other cable companies are in my area. Thanks for any info.
Andrea

Les Auber

02-12-06, 12:03 AM

I received a response Al Grossniklaus at WTHR regarding the Olympic coverage. I've attached it in its entirity below. I hadn't noticed the audio part as I'm running 5.1. There were some rather loud cracks and pops during some of the drop outs that made me worry for my speakers though tonight.

Dear Mr. Auber,

Thank you for your e-mail.

As far as tonight’s NBC HD feed is concerned, the major east coast snowstorm that is occurring right now has disrupted NBC’s High Definition uplink to the network from New York City. NBC is aware of this and we are monitoring NBC’s High Definition feed and will switch it back to air as soon as the storm subsides and NBC’s High Definition feed to the network is restored.

Although the HD video - when it is there - has, in general, been stunning, I also noticed, as you did, that NBC’s HD video from Torino had noticeably more pixelization in high motion areas than normal. (Didn't see any dropouts last night - tonight's are from the NYC snowstorm) We are receiving the HD feed that way from NBC so I don’t know if perhaps there is some degradation in the path from Torino. I’ve seen this once before - on NBC’s HD coverage of Notre Dame football, so I suspect it probably involves video compression somewhere along the backhaul from Italy. And yes, I see the online forums and am aware that this is not just one person - the comments about the increased motion pixelization are from all over the country.

I also thought that NBC's 5.1 mix during the opening ceremonies did not entirely translate well to 2 channel DTV sets. Although the surround sound generally was great, the higher than normal announcer levels in the FR & FL channels translated to a bit of a hollow sound to the announcers on 2 ch. sets.

I have direct contact with NBC's HD technical chief - their Director of Digital Television, and I'll certainly pass your comments along directly to him.

Please feel free to pass my comments along to the Indiana HDTV forum.

Al Grossniklaus

Director of Engineering and Operations

WTHR NBC Indianapolis

IndyJeff

02-12-06, 12:10 AM

I got a similar response a little while ago as well. I'm not sure I'd call the picture quality "stunning" by any stretch, but it's good they're aware of the issue tonight and that it's only weather...

Hef

02-12-06, 01:11 AM

Well I happy to see they are aware of the problem and appears as though Al knows what he's talking about. Hope the problem clears up by Sunday, if it's the snow storm then it should.

Hef

02-13-06, 04:09 PM

Today Monday at 4:00 I'm getting echo on the Olympics.

Update; 4:20 echo gone, but still SD :mad: .

Feddie

02-15-06, 08:04 PM

Hey WTHI, please flip the switch.

ARK27

02-15-06, 08:43 PM

TimeWarner Cable now carries Universal HD channel in Terre Haute. Currently a dog show is on but tomorrow is Olympics hockey!! Not sure what Universal HD is but I do see a USA logo. Looks like its USA in HD. :D

Feddie

02-15-06, 08:47 PM

ARK27

02-15-06, 08:52 PM

Yeah I just saw it and was about to change my post. So TWC is carrying it for the Olympics only? Whats that all about?

Im with you on WTHI flipping the switch too.

See post 2535.

Feddie

02-15-06, 08:55 PM

It sounds like TWC has an agreement with to keep it, but it sounds like it might not be back until later in the year. Of course it might just be a bandwidth issue. Universal is an NBC channel that shows movies and reruns of shows. I am OK with having it for the Olympics, but I would rather have something like MTV HD or something after it.

Feddie

02-15-06, 08:59 PM

No HD for an hour on WTHI. :(

ARK27

02-15-06, 08:59 PM

Where did you see that TWC thread that talked about it anyway?

Heh. No HD on WTHI PERIOD. I can't get any from TWC.

jasonblair

02-15-06, 09:46 PM

You can get it with some rabbit ears

ARK27

02-15-06, 09:49 PM

You can get it with some rabbit ears

From my understanding thats only if I spend $300 some dollars on a receiver. Thats money I dont want to spend on something that should come through TWC.

IndyJeff

02-15-06, 10:21 PM

Where did you see that TWC thread that talked about it anyway?

Heh. No HD on WTHI PERIOD. I can't get any from TWC.

Indy is in SD as well this hour. At 8:00 it was in HD. I left to do some shopping at 9 and came back at 10 and it was in SD and the sound was a horrible reverberation. I've switched to the analog station yet again.

sjanson

02-15-06, 10:40 PM

Indy is in SD as well this hour. At 8:00 it was in HD. I left to do some shopping at 9 and came back at 10 and it was in SD and the sound was a horrible reverberation. I've switched to the analog station yet again.
Yep...WTHR OTA...I had the same problem. The audio made it un watchable. HD and DD5.1 is back up now (10:35pm)

jasonblair

02-16-06, 03:22 PM

From my understanding thats only if I spend $300 some dollars on a receiver. Thats money I dont want to spend on something that should come through TWC.I could be mistaken because my DirecTV HD receiver also has an OTA HD receiver built in, but I'm pretty sure you can get an OTA receiver for well under $100.

In fact, since DirecTV is upgrading their HD boxes from MPEG2 to MPEG4, you might be able to find someone who has an old MPEG2 HD receiver that they aren't using anymore. Obviously the DirecTV part would not work, but you could use it to get WTHI-DT just by plugging it in. :)

Charlie46227

02-16-06, 03:53 PM

I could be mistaken because my DirecTV HD receiver also has an OTA HD receiver built in, but I'm pretty sure you can get an OTA receiver for well under $100.

In fact, since DirecTV is upgrading their HD boxes from MPEG2 to MPEG4, you might be able to find someone who has an old MPEG2 HD receiver that they aren't using anymore. Obviously the DirecTV part would not work, but you could use it to get WTHI-DT just by plugging it in. :)

You're NOT mistaken. I use an older Samsung SIR-360 and it does fine and has DVI out. Under $90 on e-bay shipped. Given more time (I wanted one for Super Bowl) I think I could find one even cheaper. I'm looking to get a couple on the cheap via my work's 'bulletin board' site, for my other TVs. They're not HD TVs but I want the extra programming/better quality signal. You can always convert down :-)

KBandy

02-16-06, 04:47 PM

From my understanding thats only if I spend $300 some dollars on a receiver. Thats money I dont want to spend on something that should come through TWC.
What a coincidence, I just happen to have a Samsung SIR-T150 HDTV OTA receiver for sale. It worked fine when taken out of service due to getting HD Cable.

I'm on the far west side of Indy, close to Plainfield, so you could pick it up and save shipping. PM me, or send me a message at kbandy@iatse30.org if you're interested.

Ken

fgr41

02-16-06, 07:06 PM

I have a Sony HD-100 just collecting dust. If you are interested just send me a PM

dehaven.j

02-18-06, 08:34 PM

Anyone have any suggestion for receiving anything up here in Peru? I bought a cheap philips antenna from walmart. it has 50db amplification. I have not been able to pick up anything. I don't want an outdoor antenna because this is a temporary fix until directv carries the indy locals. They have told me that they will have them in May. So I really don't want to spend a lot on anything. I would really like to get this working because the standard def programing looks bad on my new hdtv. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Joshua

goldrich

02-18-06, 10:18 PM

nathill

02-19-06, 06:58 AM

I'm sorry to say but most likely you're going to need an outdoor antenna in your area. Just as a DirecTV satellite dish will not work indoors, I'm not sure that you'll be able to receive DTV indoors, especially at your distance. Your best bets or the strongest DTV signals in your area would most likely be WLFI-DT 11 (18.1), Lafayette (Rossville) @ about 40 miles, WSBT-DT 30 (22.1) and WNDU-DT 42 (16.1), South Bend @ about 64 miles along with the Indy stations @ around 64 miles. Fort Wayne is around 53 miles away with WPTA-DT 24 (21.1) the strongest signal. If your receiver is unable to pick up any of these stations, then I would bet you'll need a good outdoor antenna.

Steve

Steve has done a lot of good work for you here.
It looks to me like you're in a "half empty-half full" situation.
If you spend the money for a really good antenna and you're located at a good elevation with nothing between you and all of these cities, you will have one of the widest selections of digital stations of anybody in the state.
But I'll bet he's right about the chances of your getting anything at all with an indoor antenna.
Lafayette is closest, apparently, and it's forty miles away!
Good luck.
Nat

kd9rg

02-19-06, 02:26 PM

Question I have noticed that when I am watching HD OTA that the audio seems to be missing the main channel. In other words, during the warm up for the Daytona race I had to switch to the analog WTHR-13 channel to get good audio. Ideas? Thanks Mike/KD9RG

mortisemaker

02-19-06, 02:33 PM

I haven't noticed any audio problems here in Greenfield, IN. Been listening/watching for about an hour.

bcleeper

02-20-06, 01:45 PM

I have a question about trying to direct a signal around (or over) an object. My house sits on a the face of a south facing hill. Indianapolis is to the North. I can get most of the Indy channels with my antenna mounted on the roof and it's elevation is just below the horizon of the hill. My problem occurs mostly on nbc and fox. Since they are on 45 and 46 they are more suceptable to the refraction of the hill. I can get these stations fine as long as the ground temperature is below freezing. Once it warms up above this point they disappear completely. I could build a large tower but that would be expensive so I was wondering if anyone had any luck with any of the following options.

a. Running a rotator and mast mounter amplifier about 200 - 300 ft away from the power source. This would put the antenna up on top the hill. I don't know that the signal from the controller could travel over that much wire.
b. Creating a refraction device to deflect the signal down to where I can pick it up. This would obviously be succeptable to a lot of issues like multipath etc.

MAX HD

02-20-06, 07:19 PM

nathill

02-20-06, 09:07 PM

The best solution would be to put the antenna at the top of the hill.You could use RG-11 for the long run,but probably not necessary.Try RG-6 first.

I think you will be allright with RG-6 also, and agree that a long run (with the antenna on top of the hill) is the best solution.
At the distance you mentioned, you will certainly need a good pre-amp at the antenna to make the run work for you.
And, understand that the higher frequencies will be attenuated more than the lower channels will be.
Here's a link to a product I have found very helpful in my situation.
http://www.channelplus.com/product_detail.php?productId=83
I have over a 200 foot run from where my antenna is located....
Nat Hill IV

goldrich

02-21-06, 07:53 PM

posg

02-23-06, 02:28 PM

Today I found out from a WTTV engineer that WTTV-DT 48 (4.1) is getting ready to gear up for the installation of a new high-power transmitter. It has been ordered and should be in sometime next week. Also, a new antenna will have to be mounted on the tower. At this time it's not known when it will hit the air but apparently it will be no later than July 1.

The FCC construction permit calls for 870 kW, with a directional antenna (full power to the north toward Indy) @ 1100 feet on the WTTV tower in Trafalgar. This signal will be like a blowtorch compared to the current power of 4 kW @ 980 feet.

Steve

The WTTV/WTTK situation is interesting. From what I've been reading here and there, WTTK-DT has been testing a technology called "Distributed Transmission". DTS is similar to an on channel repeater which can be used to fill in holes in a station's coverage area due to extreme terrain issues. (Last time I check, Indiana HAD no terrrain). WTTK-DT has been transmitting from both it's main tower near Windfall and from the WXIN tower in NW Indianapolis.

They have a contruction permit to permanently transmit from the Indy tower at 1000 kW at about 1000 feet with a directional pattern towards Kokomo on channel 29 after the analog shutdown, I believe.

I would guess Windfall would be abandoned.

We're a long way from watching fuzzy "Popeye and Janie" and "Sammy Terry" off rabbit ears in North Indy in the 50's and 60's. But somewhere along the line WTTV lost that homegrown local underdog position that was so endearing back in the Sarkes Tarzian years. Must have happened during the "Sinclair" years.

Charlie46227

02-23-06, 04:25 PM

<snip> We're a long way from watching fuzzy "Popeye and Janie" and "Sammy Terry" off rabbit ears in North Indy in the 50's and 60's. But somewhere along the line WTTV lost that homegrown local underdog position that was so endearing back in the Sarkes Tarzian years. Must have happened during the "Sinclair" years.

Man, now I AM feeling old. Black & white TV, snowy as all get out, had to work the dial for half an hour just to get ANY semblance of an image and then only if you held the antenna the whole time. But it was worth it for Janie, he he. 'course this was pulling from Madison, IN. but still... What's even sadder is I actually remember the name Sarkes Tarzian (well, ok. Maybe I remember it as Sarkes Tarzan :-)

Not to change subjects but does anyone know if digital (OTA) radios are getting cheaper to come by? Last I checked there were 18 stations sending a signal in Indy. Anyone have any recent experiences? Any active forums?

Les Auber

02-23-06, 04:39 PM

Not sure how active but there is a forum. There is also some stuff on HD radio in the satellite radio forum.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=154

RWB

02-27-06, 11:14 AM

nathill

02-27-06, 11:40 AM

Add WTHI in Terre Haute to the growing list of stations using a sub-channel for weather. Over the weekend I performed a new scan on my box and 10-2 (24-2) showed up. At this point no audio just the weather radar.

I got the same sub-channel to pop up. I like it.
As I understand it, the radar screens rob very little bandwidth (very few changes....), and give a great radar picture to viewers.

Ken Myers

02-27-06, 12:34 PM

Add WTHI in Terre Haute to the growing list of stations using a sub-channel for weather. Over the weekend I performed a new scan on my box and 10-2 (24-2) showed up. At this point no audio just the weather radar.

Maybe Ken from WTHI will get on here and give us an update.

Greetings! Yeah, we have added an "Experimental" 10-2 to the stream. It is purely experimental at this point. We are currently running the 10-2 at about a megabit. The encoder we are using will not compress any futher than that. We are evaluating our 10-1 to make sure everything is in order. Right now, we have a little overhead <that's a good thing!> with the stream. About the audio thing...we have not got any audio, well maybe NOAA, to put on there. So there is not any audio associated with this service. We thought radar would be a good thing with springtime comming...

Cheers, Ken.

jasonblair

02-27-06, 03:38 PM

damrodd

02-27-06, 05:03 PM

NO!!!!!!!!!! Multicasting is the devil! WTHI has consistently had the best HD signal I've ever seen in any market (including Los Angeles, Indianapolis, Chicago, and Washington DC) precisely because they DO NOT multicast.

Ken - Keep the 10-1 signal pure!

I agree completely with Jason. Great HD signal, I wouldn't change a thing. The audio still pops though...

Ken Myers

02-27-06, 10:16 PM

I agree completely with Jason. Great HD signal, I wouldn't change a thing. The audio still pops though...

What's this "AUDIO STILL POPS" thing?? Does it only happen on our stream? When? Can you get other 1080 HD streams to compare it with?

Maybe if we pull 10-2, and the Electronic Program Guide, and the 5.1 audio off the stream, the picture would be even better yet!

nathill

02-28-06, 07:35 AM

Maybe if we pull 10-2, and the Electronic Program Guide, and the 5.1 audio off the stream, the picture would be even better yet!

Don't you dare change anything Ken.
I like your signal just the way it is! I really don't think anybody's eyes are good enough to see the one meg missing that you're using on the radar, and 5.1 (when done well) is very important to me.
Perhaps if you were sending out three channels, (which seems to be becoming more common), degradation could be seen, but I doubt it.

Nat Hill IV

Ken Myers

02-28-06, 08:29 AM

Don't you dare change anything Ken.
I like your signal just the way it is! I really don't think anybody's eyes are good enough to see the one meg missing that you're using on the radar, and 5.1 (when done well) is very important to me.
Perhaps if you were sending out three channels, (which seems to be becoming more common), degradation could be seen, but I doubt it.

Nat Hill IV

Funny thing is... normal 1080i video requires between 9 and about 15 megabits. We are giving the 1080 stream almost 17! Not sure anyone could even tell! We introduce what is called "NULL Packets" into the stream that is basically a place holder. The null has no usable data other than to keep the stream full which is needed to keep your receivers working. We are running about 300K of NULL. Thats extra place holding. In essence, we have simply reduced our null packets to insert this channel.
Ken.

goldrich

02-28-06, 10:14 AM

This morning I received this update from Rick at WXIN-DT regarding some recent problems.........Steve

............................................................ ...................................
All -

Just a note to apologize for the troubles we have had with our WXIN-DT
signal the past couple of days.

On Sunday, during the NASCAR race, a piece of equipment failed causing
complete loss of audio and video on DTV, and also caused glitching on the
analog signal. This is a piece of equipment supplied by Nielsen and is part
of the ratings process, so we can't just bypass it and leave it. We are
working diligently with Nielsen to get this problem corrected.

Last night, sometime, apparently our multiplexer at the studio began putting
out some bad directory information. Some receivers still had a signal,
while others had none at all. This problem was corrected this morning.

As always, if you notice technical problems with any of our signals and you
don't think it's you, feel free to email me.

Rick Poling
RF Supervisor
WTTK-TV 29
WTTK-DT 54
WTTV WB 4
WTTV-DT 48
WXIN FOX 59
WXIN-DT 45

damrodd

03-02-06, 08:38 AM

What's this "AUDIO STILL POPS" thing?? Does it only happen on our stream? When? Can you get other 1080 HD streams to compare it with?

Maybe if we pull 10-2, and the Electronic Program Guide, and the 5.1 audio off the stream, the picture would be even better yet!

I get other HD source from WICD, WRTV, WXIN and the Directv channels. I don't get the popping on any of them. It is not a loud pop, almost like a skip in the sound every four or five seconds. Anybody else get this?

Ken Myers

03-02-06, 10:25 AM

I get other HD source from WICD, WRTV, WXIN and the Directv channels. I don't get the popping on any of them. It is not a loud pop, almost like a skip in the sound every four or five seconds. Anybody else get this?

Please tell me more. Lets track this thing a little bit. Can you tell me when it occurs? I am interested in finding out if this happens all the time, or only during CBS programming, or only during certain parts of the day??? Help me, help you. There could possibly be a problem in equipment that only gets used during a certain part of the day. Our monitoring does not indicate any problems here. Please let me know...Ken.

brokat

03-02-06, 10:55 AM

damrodd

03-02-06, 12:12 PM

Please tell me more. Lets track this thing a little bit. Can you tell me when it occurs? I am interested in finding out if this happens all the time, or only during CBS programming, or only during certain parts of the day??? Help me, help you. There could possibly be a problem in equipment that only gets used during a certain part of the day. Our monitoring does not indicate any problems here. Please let me know...Ken.

Ken, I'll write down when I hear it/don't hear it this weekend and let you know. I do know we hear it during the CSI shows. The IU/MSU game last weekend did NOT have the drops. But I'll play close attention and document what I hear. It is great to have someone like you working on hardware. If only the 'other' station in Terre Haute cared about what they put out.

Ken Myers

03-02-06, 10:11 PM

I viewed WTHI DT most all of yesterday. (new antenna, new TV) The sound did not appear on local programs such as news. It was the worst on Criminal Minds and CSI:NY By the David letterman show was 1/2 over, I had narrowed it down to either a glitch in the network feed or a problem in the Dolby sound system somewhere. Music was always fine but as voices tried to come in, it was like a small signal drop or split second garble in the begining of the voices. When it was just voices mostly fine but when voices and sound (music) mixed not good. I have had similar experiences with bad Dobly recordings or tapes. Anyway that is my 2cents
Brokat

ALSO----Ken, I'll write down when I hear it/don't hear it this weekend and let you know. I do know we hear it during the CSI shows. The IU/MSU game last weekend did NOT have the drops. But I'll play close attention and document what I hear. It is great to have someone like you working on hardware. If only the 'other' station in Terre Haute cared about what they put out.

Sounds like a surround sound encoder problem. I will "bump" the Dolby encoder Friday morning. We'll see if that may solve the problem. Please let me know what you all find out. I will also try to listen a good bit myself over the weekend and alert my boss <the Chief Engineer> to the situation as well.
Ken.

brokat

03-03-06, 08:56 PM

Sounds like a surround sound encoder problem. I will "bump" the Dolby encoder Friday morning. We'll see if that may solve the problem. Please let me know what you all find out. I will also try to listen a good bit myself over the weekend and alert my boss <the Chief Engineer> to the situation as well.
Ken.

Viewed WTHI all Friday evening. The sound was perfect and so was the picture.
Very smooth sound no drop outs at all.
Thanks for the adjustment
Brokat

pduncan

03-04-06, 06:07 AM

Not to change subjects but does anyone know if digital (OTA) radios are getting cheaper to come by? Last I checked there were 18 stations sending a signal in Indy. Anyone have any recent experiences? Any active forums?

Hey Charlie,

Live in Columbus. I bought a HD receiver for my car. Couldn't pick up one HD Indy channel in Columbus, had to drive 15 miles north to lock onto one.

I guess it takes more strength to push the signal strong enough to lock into it than analog does........ but I guess with analog, you don't really "lock" onto the signal.

Links for HD Radio-
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7186426#post7186426
http://www.hdradio.com

Charlie46227

03-04-06, 08:44 PM

[QUOTE=pduncan]Hey Charlie,

I guess it takes more strength to push the signal strong enough to lock into it than analog does........ but I guess with analog, you don't really "lock" onto the signal.

Reading the "HD radio" forum is enlightening. Right now the digital radio stations are probably offering better sound with less compression. Like analog, the more compressed, the farther the listening range (?), so they're limited. I suppose they could compress more and send farther, but then what would be the point?! The forum also said that satellite radio is not as good as FM analog USED to be (before compression times.) I remember when FM stations sounded VERY good to my ears (early '70s). I thought my hearing was just starting to be worse now, but according to others, it's just that analog has sacrificed quality for range. Sad. Sad, like the way the TV stations take a basic analog and convert/compress it till 490p looks like crap. (there, I THINK that puts me 'on topic' ;-)

cd_iso

03-05-06, 07:36 PM

NO!!!!!!!!!! Multicasting is the devil! WTHI has consistently had the best HD signal I've ever seen in any market (including Los Angeles, Indianapolis, Chicago, and Washington DC) precisely because they DO NOT multicast.

Ken - Keep the 10-1 signal pure!

Oh Crap! Does this mean WTHI-DT is now cropped? Tonight I have noticed I have to hit the a.ratio button on my ota tuner. I was watching 60 minutes.

thanks,
CD :eek:

timothy.arnett@v

03-05-06, 08:48 PM

Ken Myers

03-05-06, 11:16 PM

To ken myers, I like channel 10.2, it will be nice this spring. I think wthi is doing a great job with there signal. I have a hd 10-250 tivo, and while going through my now playing list I noticed most the programs i record are on whti. I guess i just like a great looking picture.

thanks
tim arnett

Thanks for the note Tim. We are pretty much experimenting right now with the 10-2 signal. But doesn't appear that it will go away anytime soon. We are going to try to keep it running through the spring storm season. BUT TUNE TO 10-1 WHEN THE WEATHER GETS REALLY BAD! <little plug there!>

Ken.

AlanSaysYo

03-06-06, 12:17 AM

This is going to sound lame, but I wanted to throw out a corny "thank-you" to everyone working at WISH-DT for maintaining what I think is the best picture quality in Indianapolis. I have DirecTV (which we all know by now compresses some of their HD to death) and the difference between some of their channels and WISH is crazy. I had always known DirecTV's signal wasn't that great (I live with it so I can have NFL Sunday Ticket), but I recently compared Tivo'ed shows from both sources back-to-back. Watching Alias on TNT-HD on DirecTV doesn't even compare to watching CSI on WISH... when you see one after the other, it really does shock you, even if you've been used to HD for awhile. The increase in color and resolution compared to the satellite channels is amazing.

So even though I complained about the weather sub channels awhile back, I really do enjoy the picture quality I get from WISH. Even my fiancee, the queen of "I don't think we need all that HD stuff," mentions how good CSI and NFL football look compared to everything else. I was eagerly anticipating DirecTV's rollout of local HD over satellite so I could ditch the antenna, but I think I may end up keeping it just so I can get the highest resolution over the air... who knows what DirecTV's signal is going to look like.

The Mox

03-06-06, 09:53 AM

Does anyone know what happened to WISH TV on Sunday Morning? I turned the set on at about 7:30 am but no WISH on Insight cable, either the HD version (channel 760) or the SD (Channel 7). It was off at least an hour before I had to leave. The weather radar was still on cable channel 6. When I got to church a couple of other people also mentioned that WISH was also off the air....

goldrich

03-06-06, 01:18 PM

I'm not sure what happened but both WISH-8 and WISH-DT were off the air for at least three hours. I live fairly close to the WISH tower but I was even able to watch WOOD-8, Grand Rapids, MI off and on for over an hour. Bright House cable was still offering WISH-8 and WISH-DT so this cable company obviously has direct feeds from the WISH studios instead of OTA feeds like some of the other DTs.

Maybe Tom Weber at WISH will chime in with the details. Thanks.

Steve

Tom Weber

03-06-06, 04:47 PM

Hi, folks. Back from vacation! I was in London, where there are 5 OTA channels. That's it - 5. You can sign up for cable, or satellite, but the basic OTA complement is rather limited!

Anyway, we went off the air about 6 AM on Sunday morning to do a little bit of maintenance on our transmit antenna - it was just a little bit out of plumb. About 1 degree worth - not a lot, but by the time you figure out the roughly 55 mile reach of our signal, enough to fuss with a bit.

We needed to have at least a little bit of daylight, so that we could use the transits from 2 directions to sight up and down the antenna to ensure we got it plumb.

And, there were a couple of glitches in the process, so what was expected to take 60-90 minutes instead took, I'm told, about 3 1/2 hours.

But, it's finished, and things ought to be good for another 10 years or so (what's the emoticon for crossing your fingers and knocking on wood?).

Tom Weber, Engineering
WISH / WNDY / WIIH / LWS
and the LIN Indpls. Hub

goldrich

03-06-06, 07:44 PM

Thanks for the feedback, Tom. I hope you enjoyed your trip to London. Sounds very interesting.

BTW, it didn't dawn on me until later that WOOD-8, Grand Rapids is another LIN station. At one point when it was at its strongest, I almost had enough signal from WOOD-DT 7 to decode. Still looking to log it sometime.

Steve

Feddie

03-06-06, 09:29 PM

WTHI has had problems with How I Met Your Mother and Two and a Half Men.

jasonblair

03-06-06, 11:20 PM

Hi, folks. Back from vacation! I was in London, where there are 5 OTA channels. That's it - 5. You can sign up for cable, or satellite, but the basic OTA complement is rather limited!Since when is 5 OTA channels limited? What do we have here? CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, CW, PBS... that's 6 OTA's... if you are lucky enough to live in an area that has them all.

Eleven

03-07-06, 12:48 PM

What's this "AUDIO STILL POPS" thing?? Does it only happen on our stream? When? Can you get other 1080 HD streams to compare it with?

Maybe if we pull 10-2, and the Electronic Program Guide, and the 5.1 audio off the stream, the picture would be even better yet!
Audio often POPS on WTHI-HD.... it's annoying to the point that I've switched to the regular SD signal to watch some shows.

If you give me a way to call/notify someone, I'll be happy to do that the next time it happens... (BTW, CSI Miami didn't come back in HD half way through the show - Why do you have to switch away during commercials?)

I also believe that it has to do with 5.1 processing. It does not happen on other 5.1 broadcasts (other channels) however. It's like a little 'click' at the start of consonants... has happened on and off for months.

RSlamD

03-07-06, 01:49 PM

Tom Weber,

I live in the "Hole" down in Spencer. You come in just fine on all 3 channels. And sorry I also pull in WTHI out of "The Haute" So I am blessed with 2 CBS Hd's.

I've not noticed the popping Eleven described but am off tonight and will see what I get or if I have any audio problems.

And Sorry Wthi......HH Gregg transferred me again.....back up in Indy (Greenwood) and enjoying the Indy channels again.

Randy

Eleven

03-07-06, 02:08 PM

I can't say that I've noticed it since Ken "bumped" the digital encoder on 3/2/06. I should have read the entire list before posting. I was just happy that someone else was noticing the problem...although I have another friend in the area that I've called before, and he noticed it on his broadcast from WTHI-HD as well. Different SAT receivers and Amps... I've switched from the SAT receiver to TV input and still had the popping.

I'll let you know if I hear it again... I'll post on here.

Tom Weber

03-07-06, 05:34 PM

Well, for full power TV stations reasonably in the Indy market, I count 10: 4, 6, 8, 13, 20, 23, 40, 42, 59, and 63.

Add to that another 5 or 6 low power stations: 27, 31, 47, 51, and 65, and the Spanish low-power: 17.

Add 30 and/or 49 as alternative full power PBSs, and that seems to me a much higher level of variety, whatever you may think of the programming on some of them.

I may be off by a couple, but I've run out of digits <g>. Also, London is a MUCH larger metropolitan area; compare it to a NY, Chicago or LA more properly I suspect.

I didn't mean my comment as derogatory of London, we had a blast - it was just a noticable difference.

Tom

IndyJeff

03-07-06, 05:57 PM

Well, for full power TV stations reasonably in the Indy market, I count 10: 4, 6, 8, 13, 20, 23, 40, 42, 59, and 63.

Spooky - awfully close to 4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42, 108.... :)

Feddie

03-07-06, 08:27 PM

I hope this isn't considered too off topic, but did anyone else with Terre Haute TWC notice an upgrade with the HD DVR? I have some new options tonight, such as starting something I am currently recording at the beginning. I thought it was weird I couldn't do that before, but now I can. :)

jasonblair

03-08-06, 02:01 PM

Well, for full power TV stations reasonably in the Indy market, I count 10: 4, 6, 8, 13, 20, 23, 40, 42, 59, and 63.

Add to that another 5 or 6 low power stations: 27, 31, 47, 51, and 65, and the Spanish low-power: 17.

Add 30 and/or 49 as alternative full power PBSs...And people watch some of these stations? I can tell you right now that I watch 4, 6, 8, 13, 23, and 59, but I honestly am not even aware what the other stations are. I am assuming they are like Pax or weather radar or something that has a total viewership of 4 people at any given time.

As far as REAL TV stations that people actually watch, Indy has 6... and it could be down to 5 once the whole CW affiliate thing is worked out.

Tom Weber

03-09-06, 11:40 AM

And I messed up and forgot to include channel 69 as a full-power TV station, so increase my total by one.

Hey, as I said, you might not enjoy and or all of the programming on some of the stations, but they ARE there, and it's your choice. If they lost money, they wouldn't be there, so SOMEBODY must be watching, at least part of the time!

To the other responent - I'm afraid my numerical sequences aren't up to snuff - what is that series?

Tom

IndyJeff

03-09-06, 12:05 PM

To the other responent - I'm afraid my numerical sequences aren't up to snuff - what is that series?

It's the mysterious series of numbers on LOST (a show on that other network...). Nobody knows exactly what they mean yet. All of the numbers prior to the 108 add up to 108, the clock always resets to 108 minutes when they push the button, and some have speculated that it could be some reference to Buddhism, where the number 108 apparently has some special significance.

Now back to our regular programming... :)

Bents

03-09-06, 02:26 PM

I called Comcast today to ask how much they charged to run a line to different rooms and before hanging up I asked when HD was coming to Muncie and she said "we have no idea why they arent offering HD because they could be offering it right now" and also said that we were one of the few cities of our size that doesnt have it available. I asked if it was still an equipment issue and she said no and again said we have no idea why they wont offer it and that they couldnt force the local office to start offering it.

Anyone know why they wouldnt offer HD as an option here in Muncie?

goldrich

03-11-06, 03:02 PM

Some comments from other parts of the country at the HDTV Programming section:

"MSU/Iowa game here on Comcast has been terrible, tons of "blurring" today."

"The Mich. St/Iowa game is very pixelated and has the occasional blur."

I'm watching the game via Bright House and OTA from WISH-DT on a 60" monitor and a 17" monitor. The PQ is quite good but anytime there is movement, the pixelation is very bad. I can even see it on the little 17" monitor. This is about the worst I've seen from CBS. Apparently it's a CBS issue and not a WISH-DT issue.

Anyone else noticing this today?

Steve

sjanson

03-11-06, 04:53 PM

WISH-DT, Indy, OTA:
Both BigTen tournament games today have had the occaisonal "blur then fade back to crisp" effect. I've only ever seen this on CBS....is it a network issue?

nathill

03-12-06, 04:08 PM

WISH-DT, Indy, OTA:
Both BigTen tournament games today have had the occaisonal "blur then fade back to crisp" effect. I've only ever seen this on CBS....is it a network issue?

I am very unimpressed with the broadcasts from Conseco. It seems to me that somebody must be taking flash pictures at the game, and when they do, the pixels come back very slowly. ("blur then fade back to crisp" as described above)
And, the sound of the announcers comes and goes like crazy. Crowd noise is very consistant. Overall sound might be OK in 5.1, but it's bad coming from just the television set.
I am not used to these problems with channel 8's digital signal, so I'm betting on CBS as the source of the problems.
CBS is surely capable of much better.
Nat Hill IV

Charlie46227

03-12-06, 06:38 PM

[QUOTE=nathill]I am very unimpressed with the broadcasts from Conseco. <snip>

Hmmm. I'm watching via DLP projector at 72" diagonal and don't notice the pixelization though I do notice an initial cutout of voice when they flip from one camera to another. Not always, but enough to be 'bothersome'. Regarding the pixelization thing, it may just be me not 'seeing' it.

Tom Weber

03-13-06, 12:16 PM

damrodd

03-13-06, 03:58 PM

nathill

03-13-06, 06:11 PM

I'm afraid that I really didn't watch much TV over the weekend, but I can tell you that still photographers' flashes will contribute to a momentary perceived loss of resolution, as the encoders attempt to update every single pixel, instead of just tracking the motion of some of them.

Thunderstorms accounted for some breakup and quick sound dropouts in the shows I did manage to catch.

Tom Weber
Engineering
WISH / WNDY / and more!

Tom;
As always, thanks so much for taking the time to offer your wisdom to the forum.
For what it's worth, I do think I saw brief flashes of light just before the resolution had to find its way back, and I'll bet what I saw was strobes flashing.
And it's possible the sound problems were storm related now that I think about it, because the sound was better on Saturday than it was on Sunday when the storms were present.
Thanks again, Tom.
Nat

david118383

03-14-06, 04:25 PM

Is anyone else here in Bloomington? Are there any HD stations that I can pick up OTA here?

nathill

03-14-06, 05:51 PM

Is anyone else here in Bloomington? Are there any HD stations that I can pick up OTA here?

Bloomington is a real crap shoot.
If you're towards the North side of town and have good altitude (I'm lucky enough to live a mile North of North high school and up pretty high), you can do well.
I have an antenna only about 15 feet off the ground, and I get the following:
4, 6, 8, 10, 13, 20, 23 (that's a long way from Bloomington), 30, 42, 59, and 63.
And most of those have sub-channels. I've seen HD on all except 42 and 63.
(Channel 8 may offer more than one NCAA game during the tournament, or at least they have at times in the past. Granted, they would most likely be in SD if they shoot two or three games out the door.)
But other folks report they can only get channel30's digital signal in Bloomington.
I would think that anybody with an outdoor antenna ought to be able to get 4, 30, 42 and 63. But 42 and 63 are religious channels that likely not everybody will like.
So it all depends!
Nat Hill IV

RWB

03-15-06, 07:51 AM

It's amazing how a slight degree turn of the antenna can net different results. Once again to put things in perspective I'm located 9 miles north of Terre Haute and 3 miles south of Clinton.

The good news for me is I'm able to lock onto WAND the NBC affiliate out of Decatur Illinois. Of course the kicker in all of this is I would'nt have to attempt to pull in a signal this far if our local WTWO would somehow get on the ball. Are they and the local FOX (also ran by the same company) the last hold outs in Indiana?

I'm so jealous when I read how other forum members are pulling in everything while us poor slobs in the Valley have to fight tooth and nail to get anything besides WTHI (no slam against you Ken, I love you guys).

Of course once the weather, temp, tree leaves, etc: all change then things will be different again. Guess it's time to break down and get a rotor as I fight for those illusive Indiana and Illinois signals.

Feddie

03-15-06, 07:54 AM

WTWO said maybe in 2007. Can you get ABC from IL?

RWB

03-15-06, 08:04 AM

Yeah Freddie, WICD (ABC) out of Champaign has been an easy one for me. It was great watching Monday Night Football in HD. Too bad that's going to ESPN next year as our local cable company (Rapid Cable....let's just say the name does not really apply) have NO idea when they will even consider carrying any HD signals. So I will have to rely on OTA for a number of years to see anything in Hi Def.

From my location this is what I can get with NO drop outs.

Winter time....24-1 WTHI, TWO and FOX don't count since there is no HD content, WTIU out of Bloomington, WICD and now WAND out of Illinois.

Summer time....The religious channels out of Bloomington, most of the Indy channels in the evening time, and it seems every other day channel 4 (man I'd kill for this station and the Pacer games).

Fog time.....Don't we all love when the fog rolls in. Several stations out of Ohio, Kentucky, and Illinois.

Scroggles

03-15-06, 11:16 AM

Has anyone had experience with the local Brighthouse HD channels using an HDTV with the HD Tuner built-in?

We've been able to get the local HD channels religiously with basic cable on 704 WTTV, 706 ABC, 708 CBS, 710 PBS, 711 FOX, and 713 WTHR using our built-in HD Tuner. We came home to find a couple Brighthouse trucks in the neighborhood last night, and our cable was out. When it returned, I could no longer get the local HD channels. When I tune in any of those channels, they come on for a couple seconds and then go black with the dreaded 'No Signal' banner.

I switched over to our OTA HD antenna in the attic, but that has limitations. We're located in Downtown Indy, and we get massive reflection from all of the surrounding buildings. No single antenna location will allow me to pick-up all local available channels.

Given the option of having to rent-a-box from Brighthouse, I would rather put up a second antenna, merge the signals, and save myself some bucks.

Anyone else exeprience a similar problem? Thx!

jasonblair

03-15-06, 11:26 AM

WTWO said maybe in 2007. Can you get ABC from IL?
You should have bolded the MAYBE in that comment. Nextstar will never upgrade those channels... especially considering WTWO isn't broadcasting in STEREO

RWB

03-15-06, 12:57 PM

You should have bolded the MAYBE in that comment. Nextstar will never upgrade those channels... especially considering WTWO isn't broadcasting in STEREO

Jason, I think you mentioned before knowing some of the folks at 2. You got to feel for them, wondering what their future holds. Walker, Pensky, and McClanahan do a nice job of getting out in the communities. Hate to think everything goes belly up.

jasonblair

03-15-06, 03:19 PM

I know Julie Henricks. And yes, I feel for her. Working for Nexstar can't be a nice experience.

bcleeper

03-15-06, 03:31 PM

Winter time....24-1 WTHI, TWO and FOX don't count since there is no HD content, WTIU out of Bloomington, WICD and now WAND out of Illinois.

Summer time....The religious channels out of Bloomington, most of the Indy channels in the evening time, and it seems every other day channel 4 (man I'd kill for this station and the Pacer games).

Fog time.....Don't we all love when the fog rolls in. Several stations out of Ohio, Kentucky, and Illinois.

I was wondering if anyone has any thoughs as to why you can't get some of the channels in the winter? I live behind a hill and can get 4, 6, 8, 20 and 30 but can't get 13 or 59 most of the time. I was getting 13 and 59 when the temperature was below 30. I there anything I can do to improve this. I have some dense brush, now dormant, in my line of sight up the hill.

goldrich

03-15-06, 09:40 PM

I was wondering if anyone has any thoughs as to why you can't get some of the channels in the winter? I live behind a hill and can get 4, 6, 8, 20 and 30 but can't get 13 or 59 most of the time. I was getting 13 and 59 when the temperature was below 30. I there anything I can do to improve this. I have some dense brush, now dormant, in my line of sight up the hill.

You didn't mention where you're located, but here are some sites with a plethora of information about tropospheric propagation.

http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/UHF-TV-DX.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV/FM_DX#Tropospheric_propagation
http://home.cogeco.ca/~vem3ont22/propagation/tr-modes.htm

Steve

bcleeper

03-16-06, 08:31 AM

Thanks for the info. I live in Morgan county on the slope of the first hills north of the White River. The hill and trees are most likely my biggest problem. I am going to have to do some experimenting with what I need to get a signal. I don't want to spent a lot so getting above the trees is not going to happen since the trees are 60 to 100 feet tall on my property. I am just trying to figure out my best plan of attack.

RWB

03-16-06, 08:44 AM

Thanks Steve for the links. Also enjoyed your screen images.

goldrich

03-16-06, 08:48 PM

nathill

03-16-06, 09:46 PM

Tom, what happened to the HD on WISH-DT for the Illinois/Air Force game @ 8:40 p.m.? I know this game was delayed, but the previous game from the same site was in HD. At the moment, Harris is sponsoring SD.

Update: It just flipped to HD @ 8:49 p.m.............!!! Wow, what a difference, too!

Steve

Hey Steve;
This is weird. It's about 9:45 PM and while Channel 23-1 is transmitting the Illinois/Air Force game in HD, 8-1 is transmitting it in SD. Amazing......
Nat

goldrich

03-16-06, 10:08 PM

Hey Steve;
This is weird. It's about 9:45 PM and while Channel 23-1 is transmitting the Illinois/Air Force game in HD, 8-1 is transmitting it in SD. Amazing......
Nat

Yes, I just noticed it, too, about 10 minutes ago. I noticed the crawler on WISH about them flipping the game to WNDY, but I had no idea it would be in HD until I switched over to discover beautiful HD on WNDY-DT. The upcoming game featuring IU is not in HD. Maybe the equipment setup at WISH/WNDY building will not allow them to feed the same HD feed to both stations simultaneously. Not sure. WNDY-DT is not available via my cable company, Bright House, so I'm watching it OTA. Thanks.

Steve

Tom Weber

03-17-06, 12:29 PM

Things got really complicated here. The 2-hour delay in San Diego, and then the game before Indiana's going into overtime, caused plans to be re-written on-the-fly.

Trying to keep up with what feed has HD and what feed doesn't, while moving games from station to station, is difficult.

One of the operators is trying to keep up with 3 different CBS affiliates, and the others may or may not be on the same game as us. And at least 1 of them was doing sort of the same things as us, trying to figure out whether to move a finishing game to an alternate channel so that they could switch to the Indiana game.

Overtimes are thrilling to watch, but a logistical pain for us!

Tom Weber
Engineering
WISH / WNDY / and more!

damrodd

03-17-06, 01:46 PM

Hey Ken, how come the games from the HD sites are not showing in HD this weekend?

Thanks

crawdad62

03-17-06, 03:11 PM

This may have been covered before and if it had I apologize but does WTIU HD transmit a Dolby Digital 5.1 on any of their programming?

I just got HD and was getting my PBS station before from Indy. Now I'm getting Bloomington and I've not seen any programs getting Dolby Digital.

brokat

03-17-06, 06:33 PM

I sure do miss the NCAA games in HD also. I know all the NCAA games are not broadcast in HD. But it would be nice to view the ones that are.

ALEMIS

03-18-06, 01:26 PM

I know we should be thankful for what we have, but this is frustrating. Hopefully the U of I game will be in HD.

CsquaredIN

03-18-06, 02:39 PM

I was just wondering why WISH isn't multicasting during the first 3 rounds of the tournament? It sure is nice to be able to watch multiple games on multiple TV's simultaneously!

goldrich

03-18-06, 05:56 PM

I was just wondering why WISH isn't multicasting during the first 3 rounds of the tournament? It sure is nice to be able to watch multiple games on multiple TV's simultaneously!

I was curious about that, too, especially during the non-HD times.

The WISH website indicates that they were planning to carry the Illinois/Wash. game in HD. Instead they are carrying the Tenn./Wich. game, which is a very good game, but it's from Greensboro which is a CBS HD site, but the game is currently in SD (5:50 p.m.).........................

Steve

KBandy

03-18-06, 07:13 PM

I was just wondering why WISH isn't multicasting during the first 3 rounds of the tournament? It sure is nice to be able to watch multiple games on multiple TV's simultaneously!
My guess is because of the small dish provider that is offering that service this year. Perhaps they have an exclusive contract prohibiting multiple feeds from other sources.

Ken

WeKnSmith

03-19-06, 04:15 PM

Anyone else having issues with the WISH HD OTA signal during the NCAA games? Every time the image includes a lot of red it breaks up and has a lot of pixelation.

For example the WISH news commercials, Coke commercials, etc. It has been going on all weekend, and was wondering if it was somehow related to an issue with my Sony KV-32HS420 or DirecTV HR10-250. Both are still under warranty, but coming close to the end of the warranty. I have not noticed any issues on other channels, but then again most of what we have been watching is the tourney stuff.

I am planning on taping the 4:45 games on my Media Center PC's HD tuner to see if they show up there too.

---Update---
Yeah the Win MCE machine has the same issue.

nathill

03-19-06, 05:08 PM

Anyone else having issues with the WISH HD OTA signal during the NCAA games? Every time the image includes a lot of red it breaks up and has a lot of pixelation.

For example the WISH news commercials, Coke commercials, etc. It has been going on all weekend, and was wondering if it was somehow related to an issue with my Sony KV-32HS420 or DirecTV HR10-250. Both are still under warranty, but coming close to the end of the warranty. I have not noticed any issues on other channels, but then again most of what we have been watching is the tourney stuff.

I am planning on taping the 4:45 games on my Media Center PC's HD tuner to see if they show up there too.

I get the same stuff (orange seems to cause problems also) over my Insight cable and from my antenna. Has to be a CBS or WISH issue. I would guess that trying to broadcast games from all over the country (some HD, some not) is simply more than CBS can handle. I'm more than willing to overlook it in order to get so many games.
Nat

tanglemac76

03-20-06, 03:34 PM

I live south of Castleton near 71st street, and I just got my first HDTV. I bought one of the $30 RCA set top antennas with the +10 Db to pull down ota signals. I seem to be able to get each channel individually as long as I move the antenna, but I haven't found one position yet that will pull them all in. That's just annoying right now, but it'll be a big problem if I realize my dream and get a Series 3 Tivo when they are released. (My plan is to use that to record OTA high def and maybe cancel my current D*.) The problem seems to be that, according to antennaweb, most of the channels are in different directions.

Does anyone have advice on a better antenna for my situation, or alternatively a more scientific method of positioning the one I have?

Tom Weber

03-20-06, 06:18 PM

The breakup with red or yellow is strictly a WISH issue - we're working on it.

As to why no multicasting, it was a decision above me - I don't know the reasoning.

Tom Weber
Engineering
WISH / WNDY / and more!

damrodd

03-23-06, 09:43 PM

No HD for the games on WTHI again?

brokat

03-24-06, 12:57 AM

The NCAA games started in HD Thursday nite, but then, like last week the picture went to 480i. Why?

Tom Weber

03-24-06, 02:22 PM

brokat, what station are you talking about? Could be Indy, Lafayette, or Terre Haute on this forum.

brokat

03-24-06, 02:25 PM

Sorry, I was replying about WTHI.

Ken Myers

03-24-06, 11:01 PM

The NCAA games started in HD Thursday nite, but then, like last week the picture went to 480i. Why?

Just getting in here after being absent for a while. I'm watching at this minute - the Georgetown game, and it's in HD. I'm a bit removed from MC these days, but I would guess that CBS is switching affiliates all over the place during these games. And like Tom said, it's a nightmare trying to figure out whats in HD/SD. Now if the game is advertised in HD from the CBS website, and were not carying it that way,.... not sure about that one. Our MC Ops are trying to keep an eye on these feeds!

Ken

goldrich

03-25-06, 09:26 AM

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7191214&&#post7191214

The word from WXIN-DT is that the station is not currently set up equipment-wise to record and replay a syndicated show like Seinfeld in HD.

As for Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy, WTHR-DT, and sister station WBNS-DT, Columbus are currently shopping for new equipment to feed syndicated programming in HD. It might be ready to go by September/October.

Steve

brokat

03-25-06, 05:37 PM

rustysedam

03-25-06, 06:34 PM

Ken Myers

03-25-06, 11:47 PM

Ken,
Just wondering is it WTHI policy to broadcast in HD any CBS HD broadcast ? Like I said earlier some of the NCAA games began in HD but after a few commercial cuts did not come back in HD. Does WTHI have to throw a switch or something for HD or is it an embedded signal that switches the equipment?

Yeh, the operators have to "throw a switch". It is possible that our operators do not switch back to the HD feed. It is also possible that, during all these games, CBS switches to different games in progress. Now some games are HD, alot are not. Scheduling changes happen rapidly - sometimes during the game itself. In any case, the situation is getting better, and I believe that this is just temporary. Our DT station is still just a little sister right now. I believe that when the market gets saturated with DT receivers, our equipment will get better, and all will be happy in DT land! Well, except for all the cable operators and sat providers...
BTW, it appears that our high power schedule is moving along better than expected. Cant say when we will turn on the "BIG" rig, but it wont be long now.
Ken.

Ken Myers

03-26-06, 08:13 AM

Just wondering if I were to get a good antenna like a winegard, would I be able to get any Indy channels in HD from the downtown part of North Terre Haute?

I am about 2-3 miles north of WTHI who has low power HD and I get a signal strength of about 30, which is actually pretty good.

Probably going to be pretty slim. NTH is still in the "valley". Shrine Hill is going to be a bit of a feat at about 100 feet! Now looking the other way, you may be able to get 15-1 from Champaign. You should be able to get Farmersburg 2-1,10-1 and 2, and 38-1 pretty well even at our low power setting.

Ken.

brokat

03-26-06, 04:15 PM

rustysedam

03-26-06, 08:53 PM

Probably going to be pretty slim. NTH is still in the "valley". Shrine Hill is going to be a bit of a feat at about 100 feet! Now looking the other way, you may be able to get 15-1 from Champaign. You should be able to get Farmersburg 2-1,10-1 and 2, and 38-1 pretty well even at our low power setting.

Ken.

Yes, I do get 2-1,10-1 and 38-1 pretty well (even with my $25 antenna from Radio Shack), except we all know 2-1 and 38-1 are never in HD. Duane Lammers from WTWO said in an email to me that, "We do not have the equipment to broadcast HDTV. Our company owns 47 stations, and the cost to build out to full HDTV is about 100 million dollars. We hope to be full power by 2008." So I don't even bother watching WTWO or WFXW on my HD TV. WTHI is great when working properly. I always get the same signal strength within one or two points, but over this weekend there have been echos on announcers voices druing the NCAA games in HD and this evening Cold Case in HD has audio dropouts every few seconds which made watching it in HD very annoying. I will try Champaign 15-1 tomorrow and let you know what I find.

Thanks for your input.

rustysedam

03-26-06, 08:57 PM

Ken,
I am picking up 10-1 Ok from about 45 miles away with just a small temporary antenna. I have picked up 2-1 only once. Are you saying there is a stronger signal to come from all the stations you mentioned "You should be able to get Farmersburg 2-1,10-1 and 2, and 38-1 pretty well even at our low power setting"
Thanks
Brokat

Not to replace an answer from Ken as I know he's the expert of this forum, but I do know that 10-1 (WTHI) where Ken works broadcasts a low power DTV signal from I belive a transmitter located at their station on Ohio St in Terre Haute. I also believe they are working on their full power transmitter located in Farmersburg, IN where their main analog transmitter has been located as long as I can remember. It's supposed to be going sometime this summer I think. So, yes, I believe the stations in TH are operating DTV transmitters at low power right now as they have until Feb 2009 to be full power DTV.

rustysedam

03-27-06, 08:23 PM

Yeh, the operators have to "throw a switch". It is possible that our operators do not switch back to the HD feed. It is also possible that, during all these games, CBS switches to different games in progress. Now some games are HD, alot are not. Scheduling changes happen rapidly - sometimes during the game itself. In any case, the situation is getting better, and I believe that this is just temporary. Our DT station is still just a little sister right now. I believe that when the market gets saturated with DT receivers, our equipment will get better, and all will be happy in DT land! Well, except for all the cable operators and sat providers...
BTW, it appears that our high power schedule is moving along better than expected. Cant say when we will turn on the "BIG" rig, but it wont be long now.
Ken.

Mr Meyers,

Through the week during primetime programs that are advertised in HD, many of them do not start off in HD and sometimes are not shown at all in HD. I am watching King of Queens right now on WTHI at nearly 20 minutes through the program and it's not in HD. Usually at some point during the evening during a commercial, a program will come back on in HD, but I am very disappointed in having to watch primetime programming that is advertised in HD on an affiliate channel that broadcasts HD when I spent all this money on my HD TV. Any way this can be improved where the "operators" remember to "throw the switch" at the beginning of programs?

By the way, the King Of Queens came back on in HD (finally) after about 20 minutes through the program.

Thank you.

Ken Myers

03-27-06, 08:43 PM

Ken Myers

03-27-06, 08:45 PM

Mr Meyers,

snip...Any way this can be improved where the "operators" remember to "throw the switch" at the beginning of programs?.....

Thank you.

Yes. We are working on the situation

rustysedam

03-27-06, 09:32 PM

YES! WTHI-DT is at Farmersburg and is currently operating at low power. Soon, we will begin transmitting at our alotted high power setting.

Thanks Mr. Meyers for the answer about throwing the switch for HD.

Wondering about your comment that WTHI HD is at Farmersburg. Antennaweb tells me to point my antenna basically at the Ohio St studios for HD reception and when I do I seem to get a better signal strength than pointing it at Farmersburg. It's about 19 or 20 when aimed at Farmersburg and 26-28 aimed at 13th and Ohio St. Did they recently move the low power tranmission from the studios to farmersburg or was I mistake all along about where the signal came from?

Thank you again for providing valuable insight.

hoosierfan227

03-27-06, 09:43 PM

In posts 2629 and 2630 it was mentioned about the blurring effect during the Big 10 tournament. This has continued during the NCAA tournament and was really bad during the end of the GMU-UConn game. This is a CBS problem based on postings in the HDTV forum. I know this has been attributed to flash from cameras but college games on ESPN HD and NBA games in HD do not have this effect.

I was wondering if our engineering friends, Mr. Weber and Mr. Meyers, had heard from CBS about this problem and if any fix is on the way.

goldrich

03-27-06, 10:37 PM

Thanks Mr. Meyers for the answer about throwing the switch for HD.

Wondering about your comment that WTHI HD is at Farmersburg. Antennaweb tells me to point my antenna basically at the Ohio St studios for HD reception and when I do I seem to get a better signal strength than pointing it at Farmersburg. It's about 19 or 20 when aimed at Farmersburg and 26-28 aimed at 13th and Ohio St. Did they recently move the low power tranmission from the studios to farmersburg or was I mistake all along about where the signal came from?

Thank you again for providing valuable insight.

Back in October, WTHI-DT moved from the downtown FM tower to the TV tower in Farmersburg. Here are a couple of Ken's posts about the move..............

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6398546&&#post6398546
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6859225&&#post6859225

Steve

rustysedam

03-29-06, 08:17 PM

Back in October, WTHI-DT moved from the downtown FM tower to the TV tower in Farmersburg. Here are a couple of Ken's posts about the move..............

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6398546&&#post6398546
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6859225&&#post6859225

Steve

Hmm. I don't get why my signal goes to about 30 when I aim it at their downtown tower and drops to about 18 when I aim it at farmersburg.
I live on North 12th St in TH and the downtown tower is on 13th St about 2 miles South and slightly east of me. The farmersburg tower is on US 41 (aka 3rd St) about 17 miles south and a little west of me.

rustysedam

03-29-06, 08:27 PM

Mr. Myers,

I have 4 questions I am wondering if you'd be kind enough to answer:

1) Why do commercials not get shown in HD if they are in HD? This evening right after a program went to commercial, the first one (a chevy commercial) was showing in what I am 90% sure was HD...then it went to another commercial that also appeared to be in HD, but halfway through it went back to 4:3 (non-HD)...a HUGE difference.

2) A friend of mine would like to know that since he lives in the Southern most part of Vigo county (what he thinks is NOT in the valley), would he be able to get the Indy stations decent enough to watch analog channels any better than say downtown Terre Haute, and if so, how much better....he's wanting to know if it'd be worth a high end antenna to get Indy channels.

3) When WTHI goes full power digital, will everything that they carry be in HD if it was filmed in HD?

4) What happened to the little CBS HDTV logo that would rotate around from behind the CBS eye logo at the beginning of each segment (I loved that logo as it would show my friends they were indeed watching HDTV).

Thanks so much.

Ken Myers

04-01-06, 09:57 AM

<<snip>>
I live on North 12th St in TH and the downtown tower is on 13th St about 2 miles South and slightly east of me. The farmersburg tower is on US 41 (aka 3rd St) about 17 miles south and a little west of me.

Actually the downtown tower is located at 918 Ohio Street. Not sure what tower your looking at. Just look for the tallest tower inside the city limits! Anyway, the WTHI-DT signal now originates from Farmersburg. Could be an interferance issue. Maybe cable TV egress. Are you using a UHF TV antenna? Could be a number of things...
I'm east of Brazil, and can get a "78" <doesn't mean much> on the meter and SNR of almost 25 dB. I'm probably 30 miles - line of sight from the transmitter. Twice as far with no problems here.
Ken

Ken Myers

04-01-06, 10:12 AM

Mr. Myers,
1) Why do commercials not get shown in HD if they are in HD?
2) would he be able to get the Indy stations decent enough to watch analog channels
3) When WTHI goes full power digital, will everything that they carry be in HD if it was filmed in HD?
4) What happened to the little CBS HDTV logo that would rotate
Thanks so much.

1. Thats the miracle of SMPTE's 19 different formats! Actually we are currently working on simulcast solutions that deal with HD conversion. If, during CBS-HD, a commercial was shot in HD, it should remain in HD.
2. Some people on top of the valley have good results with getting the Indy analogs. Not sure about south of TH though. Find neighbors!!!
3. When the DT goes to high power, that is simply a power change. The programming orginates from a different location and will be addressed in another project. The whole DT project is VERY expensive and we can only tackle parts of the project at a time. Check out your other local DT's to see what they are doing...
4. Not sure about the CBS-HDTV logo. Should be there if the program is in HD!

We are dilligently working towards the end of analog but it will be a long, expensive road. Keep watching, it will get better.
Ken

rustysedam

04-02-06, 10:54 PM

Actually the downtown tower is located at 918 Ohio Street. Not sure what tower your looking at. Just look for the tallest tower inside the city limits! Anyway, the WTHI-DT signal now originates from Farmersburg. Could be an interferance issue. Maybe cable TV egress. Are you using a UHF TV antenna? Could be a number of things...
I'm east of Brazil, and can get a "78" <doesn't mean much> on the meter and SNR of almost 25 dB. I'm probably 30 miles - line of sight from the transmitter. Twice as far with no problems here.
Ken

Geesh...I know where the tower is located, have no clue why I was thinking of 13th St. I am crazy. I think I was thinking of about where I was aiming my antenna getting best signal. Anyway, I have the cheapest rooftop antenna (uhf/vhf) that radio shack offered about 5 years ago. When I aim it due South or slightly to the east, I get a better signal (about 27-30) than I do when I aim it downtown or at farmersburg (which is basicaly in the same line of sight from my North 12th St home.) Then I only get about 20. Not sure what is going on there. At least I get it decently.

Curiously, what happened to 10.2 (the doppler radar channel)? It's been blank for a few days. Would have come in handy this weekend.

Ken Myers

04-03-06, 07:18 AM

>>>Curiously, what happened to 10.2 (the doppler radar channel)? It's been blank for a few days. Would have come in handy this weekend.

Yeah, 10-2 was experimental. We are re-evaluating the service.
Ken.

jasonblair

04-03-06, 07:28 AM

Death to multicasting and null packets! :)

nathill

04-03-06, 08:03 AM

Death to multicasting and null packets! :)

Maybe my eyes are simply too old to notice the difference, but I can't see any difference in the HD picture on a station that is multicasting. I know in theory the bandwidth is limited, and that should make a difference, but if so, I can't see it.
I especially like the radar screens, which require almost no bandwidth, as almost nothing changes.

Sluggonics

04-03-06, 02:29 PM

Mr. Myers,

4) What happened to the little CBS HDTV logo that would rotate around from behind the CBS eye logo at the beginning of each segment (I loved that logo as it would show my friends they were indeed watching HDTV).

Thanks so much.

Heh. You shouldn't need a logo for your friends to notice whether they're watching HD! The difference between HD and SD is more than massive enough to simply distinguish by eye!

For example, a friend of mine in Chicago bought an HDTV in January, and I asked him what he thought of the Super Bowl in HD-- he said it was mind blowing.

When I went up to visit him in March, we had the NCAA tournament on, and I noticed on the CBS-HD channel, that the game was "letterboxed" and looked awful, and I asked him, "where's your HD feed?" So I looked at his cable box (a Motorola 6412 I believe) to try and figure out if it was set wrong, to 480i or something-- but it all appeared correct. I was fiddling with his TV settings, everything I could think of. Then when I pulled up his inputs menu, I realized the input was on "Cable"-- he was running his coaxial cable from his cable box to his TV and using THAT input! The amazing thing was that his HD channels actually produced images, as I was under the impression that those channels would just be black if viewed over a source incapable of displaying them at 720p or 1080i.

So I hooked his cable box up with component video cables and switched to the external input on his TV for the component cables, and voila, he FINALLY got to see HD, which caused him to totally flip out, to the point that he said it almost hurt his eyes it was so clear.

I was surprised that he thought he'd actually been watching HDTV for the past 2 months, as it didn't look any better than SD.

goldrich

04-03-06, 02:51 PM

Sadly, your experience in Chicago is not uncommon.

Steve

hoosierfan227

04-04-06, 12:13 AM

The blurring on tonight's NCAA championship was even worse than Saturday. I find it stunning that CBS has had this problem with their HDTV for most of the college basketball season and was never able to fix it.

Tom Weber

04-05-06, 12:18 PM

nathill

04-05-06, 01:18 PM

Radar is fixed, so it's back in the mix. Nice that I was able to give it's data space to the game, but we really could have used the radar during the past weekend!

Tom Weber
Engineering
WISH / WNDY / et al.

I agree with your assesment of the need for radar this weekend. It is the best weather information available, because everybody knows where they live, and don't have to watch weather folks report problems fifty miles away.
I find it invaluable.
As I have stated before in this forum, my eyes can't tell any difference in a picture when you give it the tiny amount of bandwidth required for the radar.
And, as always, thanks for taking the time to keep us informed of what's happening at WISH / WNDY / et al.
Nat Hill IV

rustysedam

04-05-06, 10:35 PM

Heh. You shouldn't need a logo for your friends to notice whether they're watching HD! The difference between HD and SD is more than massive enough to simply distinguish by eye!

For example, a friend of mine in Chicago bought an HDTV in January, and I asked him what he thought of the Super Bowl in HD-- he said it was mind blowing.

When I went up to visit him in March, we had the NCAA tournament on, and I noticed on the CBS-HD channel, that the game was "letterboxed" and looked awful, and I asked him, "where's your HD feed?" So I looked at his cable box (a Motorola 6412 I believe) to try and figure out if it was set wrong, to 480i or something-- but it all appeared correct. I was fiddling with his TV settings, everything I could think of. Then when I pulled up his inputs menu, I realized the input was on "Cable"-- he was running his coaxial cable from his cable box to his TV and using THAT input! The amazing thing was that his HD channels actually produced images, as I was under the impression that those channels would just be black if viewed over a source incapable of displaying them at 720p or 1080i.

So I hooked his cable box up with component video cables and switched to the external input on his TV for the component cables, and voila, he FINALLY got to see HD, which caused him to totally flip out, to the point that he said it almost hurt his eyes it was so clear.

I was surprised that he thought he'd actually been watching HDTV for the past 2 months, as it didn't look any better than SD.

The HTDV logo for CBS was a nice little bonus that I actually miss. I guess it re-confirmed to me (as well as my friends who didn't ever get to see that logo on their TV's) that I was actually watching HDTV. The picture quality difference IS unbelieveable, but many of my friends who bought HD-Ready TVs a couple years ago thought they were getting HD. Had to show them what HD-Ready meant. And yet, none of them have bought a decoder yet. I will wait for NFL 2006 season and have them over to see a game in HD and I know they will all go get their decoders then!!

the_gunner

04-06-06, 05:04 PM

Anybody know what channels Insight Cable (Fishers, IN) uses to broadcast their digital QAM stations (both HD and digital SD)? I'm not referring to the channels mapped thru your STB, but rather the unencrypted 'in the clear' channels you would get by plugging your coax straight into your QAM tuner in your HDTV.

TIA for any info,

the_gunner

cd_iso

04-07-06, 12:16 AM

I see the difference 10-01 WTHI-HD without the radar. Comments saying you can't see it I would question. CSI looked fantastic tonight. With radar, it just looked ok, but it just didn't look fantastic. Does that make any sense. thanks., cd.

I agree with your assesment of the need for radar this weekend. It is the best weather information available, because everybody knows where they live, and don't have to watch weather folks report problems fifty miles away.
I find it invaluable.
As I have stated before in this forum, my eyes can't tell any difference in a picture when you give it the tiny amount of bandwidth required for the radar.
And, as always, thanks for taking the time to keep us informed of what's happening at WISH / WNDY / et al.
Nat Hill IV

nathill

04-07-06, 12:27 AM

I see the difference 10-01 WTHI-HD without the radar. Comments saying you can't see it I would question. CSI looked fantastic tonight. With radar, it just looked ok, but it just didn't look fantastic. Does that make any sense. thanks., cd.

It makes perfect sense to me. You have better eyes! :)
I truly can't see a difference when channel 8 simulcasts. It may be that WTHI-HD takes more of a chunk of bandwidth for their weather, or it may be that my brain can't see the difference through my old eyes looking at my CRT rear-projection HDTV tuned to channel 8-1, (with or without the tiny amount of bandwidth needed for their dopler radar on 8-3).
Nat

balefire

04-10-06, 08:50 AM

Well, for full power TV stations reasonably in the Indy market, I count 10: 4, 6, 8, 13, 20, 23, 40, 42, 59, and 63.

Add to that another 5 or 6 low power stations: 27, 31, 47, 51, and 65, and the Spanish low-power: 17.

Add 30 and/or 49 as alternative full power PBSs, and that seems to me a much higher level of variety, whatever you may think of the programming on some of them.
Tom

Anyone in Zionsville getting WB (4) or channel 63? I'm currently using an indoor antenna, and getting 6.1, 8.1, 13.1, 20.1, 23.1, 40.1, and 59.1. Antennaweb lists 4 and 63 as being pretty far from me (~40 miles, bloomington). I'm a pacers fan and would be willing to get a good outdoor antenna if WB in HD is possible from Zionsville. Thanks.

goldrich

04-10-06, 09:46 AM

WTTV's translator station, WTTK, is currently transmitting a digital signal from the WXIN tower, approximately 5-7 miles from Zionsville. WTTK-DT 54 (29.1) should be fairly easy to receive in your area. WTTV-DT 48 (4.1) should be up and operating with 870kW prior to July 1, as opposed to its current power of 4kW.

WIPX-63 transmits from Trafalgar, next to the WTTV tower, which is about 40 miles from your location. However, WIPX-DT 27 (63.1) is quite powerful and is very easy to receive at my location near Carmel.

Steve

balefire

04-10-06, 10:03 AM

That's what I've heard, but I only get a very very static filled 29.0. What direction is the tower / where is the tower located? thanks.

Tom Weber

04-10-06, 11:35 AM

rustysedam

04-10-06, 09:15 PM

IndyJeff

04-11-06, 10:21 AM

Well, it's Monday evening at 9:15pm and the primetime shows have been on through 3 and 1/2 half hour programs and no HDTV. I waited all week watching previews of the shows I planned to watch tonight in HD and have been disappointed. Why no HD this Monday evening?

I watched The New Adventures of Old Christine and 24 -- both were in HD in Indianapolis.

GLBright

04-11-06, 04:30 PM

Well, now that we're using Eastern DST, for better or worse, around here, has anyone noticed any changes or improvements in PQ now that the locals aren't using tape delay on prime time programming? These late sunsets definitely need some getting used to. FWIW, around my spread that means a much longer outdoor work list every evening. Yuck!

Greg

Ken Myers

04-11-06, 11:23 PM

Well, it's Monday evening at 9:15pm and the primetime shows have been on CBS WTHI-DT through 3 and 1/2 half hour programs and no HDTV. I waited all week watching previews of the shows I planned to watch tonight in HD and have been disappointed. Why no HD this Monday evening?

Audio problems with CBS-HD. We could have given you the HD content without audio, but your 708 closed captioning would have gotten in the way of that great picture!

Ken Myers

04-11-06, 11:28 PM

>>> has anyone noticed any changes or improvements in PQ now that the locals aren't using tape delay on prime time programming?
Greg

Actually, most of the "tape delaying" that has been done over the last few years, has been done with video servers that are usually cleaner than the satellite delivery that brings the signal to the studio. We have been using video servers here since about 1996 or so.

BRADH

04-12-06, 10:24 AM

WTTV-DT 4 is on Insight Cable ch 763 in Bloomington area. Plus they say there is more on the way.

Brad

nathill

04-12-06, 12:56 PM

WTTV-DT 4 is on Insight Cable ch 763 in Bloomington area. Plus they say there is more on the way.

Brad

How did I manage to miss that? :eek:
Anyway, that's really good news.
Do you have any word on ESPN-2 HD? I'm really ticked that so many sporting events available on ESPN-2 are NOT in HD on Insight here in Bloomington. That's really my only complaint with Insight right now.
Nat Hill IV

goldrich

04-12-06, 01:36 PM

How did I manage to miss that? :eek:
Anyway, that's really good news.
Do you have any word on ESPN-2 HD? I'm really ticked that so many sporting events available on ESPN-2 are NOT in HD on Insight here in Bloomington. That's really my only complaint with Insight right now.
Nat Hill IV

Nat, you're not alone in missing ESPN-2 HD. Bright House in the Indy/Carmel area does not offer it either. Bright House added WTTV-DT and WXIN-DT as of January 1.

BTW, WTTV-DT 48's new full-power transmitter just arrived yesterday at the transmitter site in Trafalgar. Rick reports that it'll take about 30 days to get it all hooked up and checked out. The tower work, which includes mounting a new high-power antenna, is scheduled for late May into early June, depending on weather conditions. It should be on the air prior to July 1 with 870 kW @ approx. 1040 feet (HAAT), according to the latest FCC filing.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1114789.html

Steve

BRADH

04-12-06, 01:45 PM

Nat

Rumor from inside the Bloomington office is Startz-HD, Max-HD, TNT, a special events HD channel :eek: MTV-HD no word on ESPN-2 HD :confused: sometime in June

BRADH

04-12-06, 01:47 PM

Steve your at 666 post you need to post again :D

goldrich

04-12-06, 01:59 PM

Steve your at 666 post you need to post again :D

Hey, Brad.....and my day WAS going so well...............!!!

nathill

04-12-06, 10:44 PM

Nat

Rumor from inside the Bloomington office is Startz-HD, Max-HD, TNT, a special events HD channel :eek: MTV-HD no word on ESPN-2 HD :confused: sometime in June

First of all, I do appreciate your taking the time to offer up information.
Now, let me vent.
MTV-HD and no ESPN-2. Perfect. Just perfect. :mad:
Nat

BRADH

04-13-06, 10:35 AM

That was my thinking as well.

Brad

lfultz

04-13-06, 09:47 PM

Quick question. In Indianapolis, are the local HD stations on Comcast QAM in the clear or are they encrypted?

the_gunner

04-14-06, 09:35 AM

Yes, they are in the clear; they're in the 70's and 80's. However, you have to subscribe to one of the upper level packages to receive them. I recently downgraded from the 'Digital Silver' package to the 'Expanded Basic' package, and they stopped sending me the channel block that contains all the HD QAM channels. I think you have to order at least the 'Full Basic' in order to get that channel block.

EricST

04-14-06, 09:55 PM

How is the Reception from the Bloomington Area? I am getting a Directv H20 w/ 5 LMB setup tomorrow so I can get the Indy locals in June/July but still am interested in a antenna.

nathill

04-14-06, 10:35 PM

How is the Reception from the Bloomington Area? I am getting a Directv H20 w/ 5 LMB setup tomorrow so I can get the Indy locals in June/July but still am interested in a antenna.

Bloomington is a crap-shoot. I live north of Bloomington, fairly good elevation and get the digital equivalents of 4, 6, 8, 13, 20,23, 30,42,59, and 63.
Some others, who live in the South side of town, aren't up very high, and use indoor antennas get only 30.
It all depends!......
If you'll give more information (location and elevation) I can at least give you a more educated guess.
http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx is a great place to start.
Good luck!
Nat

EricST

04-15-06, 08:14 AM

nathill

04-15-06, 10:53 AM

EricST

04-15-06, 11:58 AM

I am not going to spend upwards of $100 bucks to get One channel I would watch (8) ,so I guess Ill stick with my H20 receiver. Thanks for the help Nat.

nathill

04-15-06, 03:54 PM

I am not going to spend upwards of $100 bucks to get One channel I would watch (8) ,so I guess Ill stick with my H20 receiver. Thanks for the help Nat.
I hope I gave you good advice. I'm not an expert, but I've paid some attention to what others from Bloomington have said on this forum. I hope I wasn't too conservative....
Anwway, Channel 30 in HD is breathtaking!
Nat

Oldandslow

04-16-06, 08:04 AM

WTTK tower is in Windfall, a couple of miles north of Tipton, on St. Rd. 213. But the WTTK-digital broadcasts are coming from the WXIN-59 tower, which you say you're getting. Have you tried tuning to 54 to see if you're able to get the datastream which will then describe itself as 29-1?

Tom, not related to your post but did you "up" the power or the antenna at WISH-DT? I'm receiving the signal at 87-89 with my OTA antenna north of Marion. Great picture this Sunday morning (Easter). Maybe it's the weather.

EricST

04-16-06, 08:32 AM

goldrich

04-16-06, 09:54 AM

Oldandslow,

Reception conditions are elevated this morning. That is most likely why you are receiving WISH-DT with a stronger signal this morning. I've included a picture of a map, as of 9:45 this morning, showing how the VHF propagation looked. Conditions are WAY UP (in the red) just south of Indiana.

Steve

bcleeper

04-16-06, 11:21 AM

I live 2 blocks North of Bender Lumber but my house is at the bottom of a valley.I have a busted pair of standerd rabbit ears( only one ear is present) hookd up and I get 30-1 & 30-2 fine.Nothing else. R.S told me I need a $100 Intenna plus the $60 boster. My wife would rather I dint go that route. So Im up in the air I guess.

I live in rural Morgan county and have been able to get most of the channels with my setup, but figure on spending more and not getting it at Radio Shack. Do some research here and learn what attenna system is best for you. I have the largest antenna from Lowes on a 15ft pole on the roof with a rotator and amplifier. This setup costs around $300 total. I would actually recommend doing some research into the most powerful UHF antenna you can get and then looking at how much height you can get because Channel 13 and 59 broadcast on high UHF 4x something. To get Channel 8 you will need a decent VHF antenna to go with the UHF one. This will also let you fallback to standard reception if you cannot get the digital due to weather or location. I am having some problems with the high UHF due to my location but if I had a little more powerful UHF I think I could get NBC out of Louisville and you are futher south than me.

My setup is as follows:
Antenna: Channel Master 3020 - Very Large UHF/VHF antenna found at Lowes, would actually recommend separate VHF and UHF systems so you can get more gain on the UHF, check around.
Pole: 10ft pole + 5ft pole on Channel Master Rotator - all found at Lowes
Amp: Channel Master 7777 purchased online. This amplifier has a separate VHF/UHF input so you can do the separate VHF/UHF.

Above setup cost about $300 with cabling and mounting, installed myself.
Compare to $400+ / year for dish or even more for cable.

I am researching a 30ft pole that lowes sells but I need to see if I can install it on the ground about 100ft from the house and not use a guide wire to keep it from blowing down.

Good Luck.

nathill

04-16-06, 07:50 PM

Nat
Yes your advise was good. On a limb , I picked up a 50db set of HDTV "rabbit Ears" at walmart to see if I would get anything. Not a thing. The PBS here in Bloomington would not even stay tuned with it. SO I will be taking it back this week and getting the $30 bucks back. I went to Best Buy and there guy told me I would need the best roof top and a booster to get anything and for it to stay tuned. Thanks again for the advise. Have a good Easter.

Eric

I would tend to agree that you would need an excellent roof-top and top quality amp to get beyond channel 30 from your location.
Only you can decide if it's worth the gamble, and based on your post, I'm guessing you're already made your decision.
As much as I love my OverTheAir HDTV (I'm watching weather on digital 8-2 right now), I'm inclined to think you've made a wise choice.
Nat

posg

04-16-06, 10:33 PM

goldrich

04-17-06, 10:34 AM

Where'd you get the neat map???

Here's the link. Enjoy!

http://www.mountainlake.k12.mn.us/ham/aprs/path.cgi?map=na

Steve

Oldandslow

04-17-06, 10:36 AM

RWB

04-18-06, 08:30 AM

What a curse this has become or as the wife calls it 'HD-OCD'.

It takes awhile for it to sink in, but when it finally hits you have to scratch your head. In the pursuit of OTA HD channels we go to great lengths as noted by many here by buying large antenna, stealth antenna, booster boosters, preamp preamp boosters, gold tipped connectors with oxygen free shielded cabling, moisture reducing coatings, variable speed rotors, and 80ft extension ladders just in case you need to make that final tweak......And all of this so I can get the faith channels (nothing against the religious stations) that I don't watch......Maybe that's why we went to the Moon? :D

nathill

04-18-06, 10:47 AM

bcleeper

04-21-06, 12:44 PM

rustysedam

04-22-06, 11:09 PM

Ok, we all love HD TV, but WTHI-DT is making me crazy. I hardly ever get to see a full program in HD. Recently, the King of Queens was in SD until about halfway through then it came back on in HD. Tonight, I was checking out the movie Something's Gotta Give in HD...I did a split screen to show the difference between SD and HD so I could take some stills for my friends. When it went to commercial at 11pm and came back on it was no longer in HD? While I don't know for sure that the movie was true HD, it sure did look a heck of a lot better until the HD was apparently turned off for the evening.

I almost wish they'd leave it in SD if they are going to only show part of a program in HD like they do so often.

EDIT: Ok, now after the 11:15pm commercial break, the movie is now back in HD. What gives?

tv insider

04-23-06, 10:23 AM

just from reading previous entires, they flipped the switch and forgot to flip it back.

mabrandt

04-23-06, 09:31 PM

pacerfan11

04-24-06, 11:57 AM

A fellow Tivo 10-250 owner had a hard drive enter a startup loop that froze the machine. He subsequently called DirecTV and was sent to a Special Apps Tech support (not the official name). The tech CSR was familiar with the problem and assessed it as being an older 10-250 model that wouldn't properly recieve a software update. She put a new one in the mail to him.

Now, the point... she also mentioned to him that he was lucky because the Indianapolis area would be receiving the HD locals in June from one of the Mpeg2 satellites rather than one of the Mpeg-4 satellites. Thus, enabling the HD10-250 to receive the HD locals. The CSR sounded very well versed in the goings-on rather than being clueless.

Has anyone else heard something similar?

Thanks

- Pacer

auribe14

04-24-06, 10:09 PM

Now, the point... she also mentioned to him that he was lucky because the Indianapolis area would be receiving the HD locals in June from one of the Mpeg2 satellites rather than one of the Mpeg-4 satellites. Thus, enabling the HD10-250 to receive the HD locals. The CSR sounded very well versed in the goings-on rather than being clueless.

Has anyone else heard something similar?

Thanks

- Pacer

Nope, not a single hint, peep, nothing. Highly unlikely.

david118383

04-25-06, 09:30 PM

nathill

04-25-06, 10:05 PM

How difficult is it to pick up PBS HD in Bloomington? I just received my Samsung T451 and hooked it up with my silver sensor. I thought I would be able to pick up PBS, but so far I can't. According to Antennaweb I'm only like 1.5 miles from the station. Anyone know what the problem is? It could be that I'm not using my T451 correctly. To be honest I'm not really sure how to work it yet. Any advice?

I think there is a very good chance you have too much signal for your T451.
I can get PBS on my T451 with a piece of coaxial cable and no antenna! I'm more like ten miles from the transmitter, not 1.5 miles.
I would aim your antenna in different directions, but still think you may have too much signal.......
Remember, WFIU's digital channel is 14, not 30.
Nat

Sluggonics

04-26-06, 09:34 AM

Nat

Rumor from inside the Bloomington office is Startz-HD, Max-HD, TNT, a special events HD channel :eek: MTV-HD no word on ESPN-2 HD :confused: sometime in June

ESPN2-HD in June would be perfect-- the World Cup broadcasts will be starting then! I'm not holding my breath, though. At least I'll get to see some of the games in HD on ESPN HD and ABC HD.

mabrandt

04-27-06, 10:36 AM

Is it me or what? Has WTHR's Dolby feed been messed up for the past several days? In the evening when it switches to Dolby ALL sounds come for ALL the speakers. There is no channel seperation. I first noticed it last Thursday and then again tonight on West Wing. It is very annoying to hear the dialog come from behind you. When they switch local for the commercials, it goes back to normal. It is only when they are using the network feed. I finally shut off my rears, but all 3 fronts had dialog. Anybody else have this problem.

Mark

I received a response from WTHR this morning with the following.

Thank you for your e-mail. I appreciate your observations of the HD surround audio channels on NBC HD programming.

NBC had an HD encoder failure in New York which caused our NBC HD feed decoder at WTHR to revert to its default settings which puts only L/R stereo audio on all six NBC HD surround channels. We have reloaded the correct software setup into the NBC HD feed decoder so the NBC HD feed we are receiving again has all six correct surround channels.

I noticed the sound was corrected Monday. It seems od I was the only one who noticed.

Mark

nathill

04-27-06, 11:14 AM

I'm not sure this post really belongs in this thread, but I found this very fascinating reading, espcially for us non-engineers.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html

I found the following (from the hdtvprimer) enlightening...

The bandwidth for NTSC is always 6 MHz. Without data compression, the bandwidth for 1080i would be 300 MHz. With MPEG-2 data compression the bandwidth varies according to how fast the image changes. For 480i the bandwidth rarely goes above 1 MHz. For 1080i and 720p the bandwidth rarely goes above 3 MHz.
Thus it is possible to put six 480i programs or two 1080i programs in a 6 MHz channel. The FCC allows this. Thus terrestrial DTV stations have sub-channels. It is up to the station managers how many sub-channels to have and what programming will air on those sub-channels. Note that a sub-channel showing a static image (e.g. a weather map or bulletin board) requires almost no bandwidth despite being at high resolution.
ATSC is an imperfect standard in that occasionally the bandwidth requirement will exceed the channel size. When this happens, the picture can get coarse or jumpy as frames are deleted. A more graceful failure should be possible since that bandwidth exceeds what the human mind can absorb. Hopefully in the future, compression schemes will be developed that fail in an unnoticeable manner.

Nat Hill IV

ps. you engineers can jump in here if you'd like. Is the above overly-optimistic (in the real world)?

Bents

04-27-06, 11:52 AM

Im in Muncie Indiana and I noticed yesterday that Comcast now has their HD stations showing on the channel guide so I called them and they are now offering HD.

The channels start at 202 and we get
ESPN-HD
TNT-HD
DHDTV
INHD
INHD2
HBOHD
MAXHD
SHO-HD
STARZHD
ABCHD
NBCHD
FOXHD
CBSHD
WB-D
PBSHD

They are coming out saturday to bring new boxes.

kyle111878

04-28-06, 12:37 AM

Bents

04-28-06, 11:27 AM

I was browsing through the channels after work yesteday and noticed the channels were added. I went to Wal Mart right away and got the video component cables. Look pretty awesome. The only downfall was tonight when the Pacers were supposed to play on INHD and it blacked out on that channel and went to WBHD (Which wasnt broadcasted on in HD). You'll see what I mean when you see it. Picture was still crisp but could tell it wasnt in true high def. I also called comcast and they said that On demand is right around the corner too.

I have my dvd player hooked up via component cables so I will be using DVI and also told them to bring the DVR so that will be new too. I figured On Demand would be here soon because its already showing as available for Muncie on their website.

It sure took them long enough.

Tom Weber

04-28-06, 01:31 PM

I would respond that the article is somewhat mischaracterizing the data/space requirements of DTV. The US 8-VSB modulation scheme uses 6 MHz of space (1 TV channel), and delivers 19.4 Mbits of data - regardless of how many channels are active.

The requirements of a particular channel are usually discussed in terms of data rate, not spectrum use. Thus, a standard definition channel may use 4 Mbits of data, a high definition channel may use 16 Mbits. If a station wants to use only a single SD channel, it still broadcasts 19.4 Mbits of data; the unused bits are called "null fill." And it still takes up 6 MHz of spectrum.

The state of the art is improving, but trying to squeeze an HD sports contest into 9 Mbits would not work well at all, with the possible exception of curling, or chess. Likewise, 6 SD channels is probably too aggressive right now, for some content. This is all predicated on MPEG-2 compression. With more advanced compression schemes, (e.g., MPEG-4, which I'm meaning as a generic example), the numbers cited should be very possible. MPEG-2 is currently mandated on US broadcasts, that may not be true in the future.

Hope this is not too confusing.

Tom Weber
Engineering
WISH / WNDY / WIIH / LWS / and more!

nathill

04-28-06, 09:19 PM