Is anybody else in the Indianapolis area seeing a 21.9 and a 21.10? My Sony 40S3000 is picking them up when I scan for channels. They appear to be subchannels that WFYI is transmitting, but there's no content.

I'm not sure why you are receiving those sub numbers. I just scanned WFYI-DT via the Insignia NS-DXA1 (CECB) and OTA, and I didn't find those subs. My Sony KDS-R60XBR1 sometimes comes up with some strange channel and subchannel numbers, especially when I attempt to use QAM from Bright House. This TV is generally used via the digital/DVR receiver from B.H.

Maybe somebody else can help you. Sorry.

Steve

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UpdateTV

Here's the data I have for WFYI, note Programs 9 and 10: http://www.rabbitears.info/screencaps/in-ind/41397-0_0.htm

- Trip

is something up with wrtv (6) digital signal? it was going out during the snow storm but now the radar shows clear and yet it's not coming in enough to latch on (around 59 strength). looks like I'm going to have to watch lost on crappy analog tonight :( or watch it later on the net. just wondering if it's me or others see a loss of digital signal.

thank you.

I'm only 5 miles from the WRTV tower, but even with the antenna totally misaimed, the signal is strong and steady. Sounds like it might be an issue at your location.

is something up with wrtv (6) digital signal? it was going out during the snow storm but now the radar shows clear and yet it's not coming in enough to latch on (around 59 strength). looks like I'm going to have to watch lost on crappy analog tonight :( or watch it later on the net. just wondering if it's me or others see a loss of digital signal.

thank you.

I didn't have any problems with their digital signal last night during Lost. I'm near Keystone at the Crossing.

Jeff

How much stronger will the WISH signal be post-transition?

How much stronger will the WISH signal be post-transition?WISH is operating at their post transition power, although they have requested a little more power.
(Current: 19.5 kW @ 284m HAAT, 22.8 kW @ 284m HAAT Requested)

I have two HDTVs with indoor OTA antennas that both have intermittent problems with WTHR's digital signal (mainly 13-1 -- I don't watch their other sub-channels that much). Sometimes it's fine, other times it's completely unwatchable. Weather doesn't seem to be a factor; I have issues when it's clear as well as during rain or snow.

One of my antennas is a simple rabbit ears w/UHF loop design. The other is an amplified RCA ANT1450B. (The amp seems to help a few other stations, but it doesn't completely correct the problems with WTHR.) Both are on the second floor, both are near outside walls. Repositioning them doesn't seem to help. I am 8.5 miles from the WTHR tower (and about 11 miles from most of the other towers, BTW).

Any thoughts or suggestions, or should I just sit tight until they switch to their new VHF signal in Feb (hopefully...)?

I have two HDTVs with indoor OTA antennas that both have intermittent problems with WTHR's digital signal (mainly 13-1 -- I don't watch their other sub-channels that much). Sometimes it's fine, other times it's completely unwatchable. Weather doesn't seem to be a factor; I have issues when it's clear as well as during rain or snow.

One of my antennas is a simple rabbit ears w/UHF loop design. The other is an amplified RCA ANT1450B. (The amp seems to help a few other stations, but it doesn't completely correct the problems with WTHR.) Both are on the second floor, both are near outside walls. Repositioning them doesn't seem to help. I am 8.5 miles from the WTHR tower (and about 11 miles from most of the other towers, BTW).

Any thoughts or suggestions, or should I just sit tight until they switch to their new VHF signal in Feb (hopefully...)?

I haven't kept a log or documented each and every problem, but I tend to think that WTHR has more periodic problems with their digital signal than the other Indy stations.

I've been unable to receive a usable signal from WRTV and WTHR on my HTPC (using a TechnisatDTV ATSC receiver card) for a couple of weeks now. The ATSC tuner in my 32" Viewsonic N3250 television is able to lock on both stations with no problems (solid lock, no dropouts or pixelation). I've got both the TV and the HTPC hooked-up to a DB2 antenna that I've got mounted on the roof (attached to the back of my DISH Network antenna and aimed at the antenna towers which are all between 36 degrees and 44 degrees the northeast of me, splitter inside to distribute the feed to the HTPC and the TV; yes, I've swapped the cables between the two and I see no improvement on the HTPC reception and no degradation on the TV reception). I'm located on the northwest side of Indy (Pike Township area, and according to Antennaweb.org I'm 3.2 miles from the WRTV tower and 5.4 miles from the WTHR tower.

I have no trouble receiving and locking on WISH, WNDY, WXIN, and WFYI with my HTPC tuner with no dropouts, but when I do manage to pull a lock on WTHR and WRTV the lock only lasts a moment and then it locks up or drops out.

I'm suspecting multipath issues, but up until a few weeks ago WRTV was my strongest feed (used to watch the "Headline News"-style local news feeds on the the WRTV6 sub-channel on my HTPC on a regular basis using this exact same setup).

Is anyone aware of any recent changes with the WTHR and WRTV broadcasts?

I just saw something today that WHMB TV 40 will be shutting down their analog service early. I think it was 1/16. Is this correct? When I went to their webpage, I didn't see any mention of it.

I would like to confirm if WHMB/40 shut down their analog signal on 1/16. Thank you.

I would like to confirm if WHMB/40 shut down their analog signal on 1/16. Thank you.

Yes, WHMB-40 shut down their analog signal 1/16. As a result, I've actually seen a little signal from WFWA-DT 40, Fort Wayne on occasion. Wasn't able to see this while WHMB was on the air.

And thanks for your fine posts at other sites here at AVS Forum.

Steve

Hello everyone. New to this AVSForum (sorta), and had a question for those of you smarties out there, in regards to reception.

We live in a north-facing third floor apartment on the Northwest side of Indy near Eagle Creek Park, and have no problem getting the Indy digital stations with a super cheap $10 non-amplified indoor RCA antenna). 6.x, 8.x, 13.x, 23.x, 59x, 63.x all come in just fine. I think we also get 40.x, 42.x and 69.x just fine, but I took those out of my channel lists (not content we generally watch).

The only station I'm having trouble with is WTTV-DT (4.x). With my cheapie $10 antenna, it comes in *sometimes*. Its better at night, usually, than during the day. During the day, sometimes I can get a lock, sometimes I cant.

We decided to try out a little better antenna, and went up to Fry's today. Picked up a $35 amplified GE antenna. With it, all the stations we used to get come in -- but WTTV-DT 4.x is still troublesome.

Is anyone able to get WTTV-DT 4.x with a similar setup? Or are we just out of luck for now until they go full-power? We actually don't watch as much TV as we used to, and between OTA and stuff on, say, Hulu, we get everything we like. But we'd really like to be able to get WTTV-DT 4.x again.

Thanks, any thoughts would be appreciated. Hope I gave enough information... If I did not, just ask I'd be glad to fill in the blanks.

Thanks!
--Eric

Eric, WTTV-DT is already at full power with 870 kW @ 1043 ft. from Trafalgar, next door to the WCLJ and WIPX towers. You mentioned that you thought you had received 42, which would be WCLJ-DT, which is currently on RF ch. 56 but will be moving to ch. 42 very soon (their analog has already signed off). My brother lives two blocks from the
56th St. entrance to Eagle Creek Park and gets WTTV-DT with an amplified indoor antenna (not sure of make/model). I live 37 miles north of the WTTV tower (near Carmel) and can even receive it with a simple single bow tie antenna (no amplifier) in my basement.

Sometime in the near future, WTTV-DT is planning to remove the old top-mounted WTTV-4 analog antenna on the tower and replace it with a new digital antenna for WTTV-DT, which will give the antenna more height (from 1043 feet above average terrain to around 1170 ft.). Plus, WTTV-DT recently received approval from the FCC to increase its power from 870 kW to 1000 kW. The increase in power plus the extra antenna height will help some viewers with marginal reception.

Plus, hopefully by August, WTTK-DT, WTTV's satellite station (licensed to Kokomo) will be transmitting from its sister station's tower, WXIN, just to the northeast looking out your window. At that time, WTTK-DT 29 will be operating at full power with 780 kW. That signal will be very easy for you to receive.

Steve

Quick update from the northwest side (Pike Township) -- today WRTV and WTHR are coming in great, and I'm having no trouble with reception from either channel on my HTPC setup. Both channels were coming in fine during the day, and now that it's past sunset they still seem rock-solid.

Not sure if something has changed, or if it was the overcast/weather we were experiencing recently, but today they're fine.

Anybody know of any changes at either station?

Quick update from the northwest side (Pike Township) -- today WRTV and WTHR are coming in great, and I'm having no trouble with reception from either channel on my HTPC setup. Both channels were coming in fine during the day, and now that it's past sunset they still seem rock-solid.

Not sure if something has changed, or if it was the overcast/weather we were experiencing recently, but today they're fine.

Anybody know of any changes at either station?


Hey jbodin, whats your HTPC setup? I saw someone mention MythTV earlier in the thread but can't remember if that was you or not. I'm a MythTV guy, have been for about 2.5 years now. Love it.

--Eric

Eric, WTTV-DT is already at full power with 870 kW @ 1043 ft. from Trafalgar, next door to the WCLJ and WIPX towers. You mentioned that you thought you had received 42, which would be WCLJ-DT, which is currently on RF ch. 56 but will be moving to ch. 42 very soon (their analog has already signed off). My brother lives two blocks from the
56th St. entrance to Eagle Creek Park and gets WTTV-DT with an amplified indoor antenna (not sure of make/model). I live 37 miles north of the WTTV tower (near Carmel) and can even receive it with a simple single bow tie antenna (no amplifier) in my basement.

Sometime in the near future, WTTV-DT is planning to remove the old top-mounted WTTV-4 analog antenna on the tower and replace it with a new digital antenna for WTTV-DT, which will give the antenna more height (from 1043 feet above average terrain to around 1170 ft.). Plus, WTTV-DT recently received approval from the FCC to increase its power from 870 kW to 1000 kW. The increase in power plus the extra antenna height will help some viewers with marginal reception.

Plus, hopefully by August, WTTK-DT, WTTV's satellite station (licensed to Kokomo) will be transmitting from its sister station's tower, WXIN, just to the northeast looking out your window. At that time, WTTK-DT 29 will be operating at full power with 780 kW. That signal will be very easy for you to receive.

Steve


Steve: Thanks much for the response, very appreciated, and very detailed. Its promising to hear that your brother is able to get WTTV-DT, since he's very very close to my location. I am actually south of him, from your description... I am basically at 46th and Eagle Creek Parkway. Perhaps I will try a different brand/model of antenna. Fry's had limited stock of antenna's, so maybe what we decided on just isnt a very good one. Perhaps if I were south-facing, I'd be having better luck as well.

It's also very promising to hear about WTTK broadcasting from the WXIN site later this year, since I get WXIN perfectly. Anyway for the time being, I'll probably research antennas and try a different one, cuz it cant really hurt :) I can always return it if it doesnt get me any better reception than my cheapie $10 RCA antenna. :)

Thanks again, I think this forum is going to be highly informative.
--Eric

Anyone know how good the Indy HD locals look on U-verse compared to OTA? Switching to U-verse on January 31. Have had Dish Network for 12 years and am tired of them.

So how do you like the UVerse? Enquiring minds want to know... :)

Hey jbodin, whats your HTPC setup? I saw someone mention MythTV earlier in the thread but can't remember if that was you or not. I'm a MythTV guy, have been for about 2.5 years now. Love it.

--Eric

I'm running a WinXP setup and I currently use DVBViewer. Nice package, originally got it when I was using a Technisat Air2PC card (1st generation). I've since switched to a TwinhanDTV ATSC card, which is also a 1st or 2nd generation tuner, and it doesn't deal with multipath very well so I'm looking to upgrade to try to sort-out some of these reception problems I'm having.

Before I switched to an ATSC tuner I used GBPVR -- still use it to some degree, I really like the skins and user interface, but I get better tuning performance with DVBViewer for the most part. I switch back-and-forth between the two at times, but I'm primarily a DVBViewer user.

As far as my reception issues go, I've been having problems later in the evening picking up WRTV and WTHR, both on my HTPC and on my Viewsonic LCD TV's built-in ATSC tuner (which can usually pick up those channels even when my HTPC tuner can't). I'm thinking it MUST be the winds we're getting tonight, but we'll see how reception looks tomorrow.

So how do you like the UVerse? Enquiring minds want to know... :)

Ok, just got U-verse up and running a few hours ago. They came yesterday and got it all ready to go but my phone line was way too old and needed to be replaced. That line was replaced this morning. The guy who replaced that was not a U-verse installer though so he didn't not know what to do inside.

Got everything up and running with the TV about 5pm. Thankfully that was about an hour before the Super Bowl which is what I am watching now. You guys had me scared silly. I wanted to cancel before they even came but know this isn't a service you have to sign a contract for.

It's really not too bad. It's a little soft and there are some artifacts. No it's not OTA antenna quality. It was a bit worse as at first I had this connected via Component. Now that the installers are gone I moved it to HDMI. Picture seemed to get better once I had it back to HDMI where my Dish Network was.

Since I've only had it up and running for two hours I haven't checked anything else yet. Will let you know about other channels like Fox, CBS and ABC later as I record programs on those channels through the week.

I'm not removing my OTA antenna and once it gets warmer I will run new lines from that to each room so I can use the TV's built in tuners as well. U-verse does have a limit of 2HD and 2SD channels at the same time. This won't be a problem for me. I have three receivers with one being a DVR. If you are watching the exact same channel it only uses one stream so I can have the Super Bowl on all 3 receivers at once.

So maybe U-verse had improved the picture since you guys last saw it? Maybe so. So far with my limited viewing it's not too bad. I will send more updates as I watch more channels over the week.

It's really not too bad. It's a little soft and there are some artifacts. No it's not OTA antenna quality.


That being the case, I won't be calling. Good Luck with it.

Thanks for the update- keep us posted...

That being the case, I won't be calling. Good Luck with it.

We had U-Verse for 6 months before moving to a new apartment where we were unable to get it. We were *extremely* happy with it and were quite disappointed when we had to go back to Comcast. Unfortunately AT&T has been telling us "any day now" we'd likely be able to get U-Verse here at our new apartment, and we still dont have it. We've actually decided to go OTA only, because we just cant justify the cost with Comcast anymore.

--Eric

Get ready to say goodbye to Indiana's oldest (analog) TV station, WRTV-6 (formerly WFBM-6, along with WFBM-AM 1260 & WFBM-FM 94.7) as of February 17. WRTV-6 has filed to "terminate analog service permanently."
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=726199

Just short of its 60th anniversary (May 30, 1949), WRTV is the first major Indy station to file to end analog service. Which Indy station will be next?

As of this morning, it appears that EVERY full power analog station in South Bend will be gone by Feb. 18 and more than half of the full power analogs in Fort Wayne will be gone. So far, I haven't read any reports or seen any FCC filings regarding stations in Terre Haute and Lafayette.

Steve

We had U-Verse for 6 months before moving to a new apartment where we were unable to get it. We were *extremely* happy with it and were quite disappointed when we had to go back to Comcast. Unfortunately AT&T has been telling us "any day now" we'd likely be able to get U-Verse here at our new apartment, and we still dont have it. We've actually decided to go OTA only, because we just cant justify the cost with Comcast anymore.

--Eric

What's the cost comparison for U-Verse, Eric? We've currently got phone service and DSL through AT&T, and we use the DISH Network "Family" plan (their lowest-cost package, with NO HD channels). I've been eagerly awaiting the arrival of U-Verse in my area, but it still hasn't arrived (and I'm IN Indianapolis, INSIDE of I-465).

Update on my reception status: WRTV has remained strong and stable even with the snowfall this morning. WTHR has been spotty this morning but seemed strong and stable last night (was able to DVR HEROES with no glitches at all).

Evening update: WTHR is VERY weak tonight (currently around 9:00 PM) -- frequent drop-outs (unable to retain a lock) on both my TV and my HTPC. All other channels seem fine.

I've had a couple of days now with U-verse. I don't consider myself a huge video perfectionist. Yes I have blu-ray and love it. I detest SD channels.

Had a chance to watch HD versions of WHTR and WXIN for some recorded programming. I think the issues I noticed on my install day with the Super Bowl was just because that was live programming. When I sit close to the HDTV (within 4 feet) I do see a tiny bit of compression artifacting. If I move about a total of 8 feet away I don't see any difference really.

Granted I am only on a 32" LCD right now. I may see a bigger change soon. Am planning an upgrade to a 47" LCD in the next two weeks.

I have still not had a chance to view HD on WRTV yet but will soon as I watch only Lost and Ugly Betty on ABC. Will be able to check out WISH soon as well.

I did briefly tune to WTTV and it looked ok. I never got WTTV OTA though. WFYI looked ok too. Not checked out WNDY yet at all and never got that reliably OTA.

So I'd like to think of it this way. If you consider your OTA signal a 100% on a quality scale, I'd put U-verse at 97.8%

Update on my reception status: WRTV has remained strong and stable even with the snowfall this morning. WTHR has been spotty this morning but seemed strong and stable last night (was able to DVR HEROES with no glitches at all).

Evening update: WTHR is VERY weak tonight (currently around 9:00 PM) -- frequent drop-outs (unable to retain a lock) on both my TV and my HTPC. All other channels seem fine.

Unfortunately WTHR is always weak for me-- unlike the other three. I sure hope their impending move to VHF helps in the signal strength department.

Ok, just got U-verse up and running a few hours ago. They came yesterday and got it all ready to go but my phone line was way too old and needed to be replaced. That line was replaced this morning. The guy who replaced that was not a U-verse installer though so he didn't not know what to do inside.

Got everything up and running with the TV about 5pm. Thankfully that was about an hour before the Super Bowl which is what I am watching now. You guys had me scared silly. I wanted to cancel before they even came but know this isn't a service you have to sign a contract for.

It's really not too bad. It's a little soft and there are some artifacts. No it's not OTA antenna quality. It was a bit worse as at first I had this connected via Component. Now that the installers are gone I moved it to HDMI. Picture seemed to get better once I had it back to HDMI where my Dish Network was.

Since I've only had it up and running for two hours I haven't checked anything else yet. Will let you know about other channels like Fox, CBS and ABC later as I record programs on those channels through the week.

I'm not removing my OTA antenna and once it gets warmer I will run new lines from that to each room so I can use the TV's built in tuners as well. U-verse does have a limit of 2HD and 2SD channels at the same time. This won't be a problem for me. I have three receivers with one being a DVR. If you are watching the exact same channel it only uses one stream so I can have the Super Bowl on all 3 receivers at once.

So maybe U-verse had improved the picture since you guys last saw it? Maybe so. So far with my limited viewing it's not too bad. I will send more updates as I watch more channels over the week.


Just curious, but does this mean that you could record 2 HD shows simultaneously while watching a 3rd from the DVR? If so, that is the same restriction that I have with Comcast.

Don't jump to too many conclusions too fast.

Some of the filings are precautionary, based on legal advice, especially with the date still in doubt. Our stations are not receiving those same advisories at this time, but it is something we have thought about.

Tom Weber
Engineering
WISH/WNDY

Some stations (in others areas) are shutting down 2/17 or shortly after regardless of the passage of today's delay. Now...I just want to know what our Indy locals are going to do and when.

Tom...when do you expect to know this?

WTHR 13 announced their intention to continue to run their analog transmitter. See the fourth paragraph.

http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=9789058&nav=menu188_12

hallelujah I can watch lost tonight in it's full hd glory on my 42 inch hdtv tonight!

I'm about 35 miles southwest of indy (roughly bargersville). I have what radio shack called a 100 mile antenna in my attic (was great 20 years ago when it was new but now kind of beat up). if I point it to get wish in well I have drop outs on 20 and 6. I can't get wish with a rabbit ears but I can get 20 and 6 with rabbit ears.

so what I've decided to do is connect a rabbit ears for when 6 and 20 drop out. other than that, I get great reception (but I'm only about 6 miles north of trafalgar where lots of the antennas are plus I live on a hill).

WTHR 13 announced their intention to continue to run their analog transmitter. See the fourth paragraph.

http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=9789058&nav=menu188_12


Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame!

What about the others... have any of the others stated their intentions yet?

--Eric

Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame!

What about the others... have any of the others stated their intentions yet?

--EricDarn!! Was hoping the 13 VHF Digital signal would be better than the UHF, which is buggy.

Darn!! Was hoping the 13 VHF Digital signal would be better than the UHF, which is buggy.

Same here. I couldn't pull in WTHR at all last night, and my problems with WRTV continue (I couldn't pull in a good enough signal to record the OTA HD feed for LOST and LIFE ON MARS without dropouts on my HTPC last night, so I had to rely on the SD feed from DISH Network on my DVR receiver). Annoying as heck, because I'm counting on the OTA DTV transmissions to actually WORK, but I don't think that's going to happen as long as the stations are forced to shoulder the burden of continuing to maintain the analog transmitters in parallel.

This delay bill is not official until the President signs it, but that appears to be a given.

According to an article in today's Indianapolis Star, WXIN-59 and WTTV-4 plan to remain on the air until June 12. And, as posted above, WTHR-13 plans to stay on the air until the new date, thus delaying their switch from ch. 46 to ch. 13.

As posted above, WRTV-6 has already filed with the FCC that the station 'intends' to cease analog service as of 2/17. The new delay bill does give stations the option of terminating analog service early (prior to 6/12). So far, I'm not aware of any updates from WRTV.

As of yesterday, it seems almost certain that WTTK-29 will be leaving the air on 2/17 so that WTTK-DT can flash-cut from ch. 54 to ch. 29.
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=726699

In the South Bend market, WNDU-16 (NBC) posted last evening that it still intends to sign off 2/17. http://www.wndu.com/localnews/headlines/39109512.html

Just for fun, here's an analog vs. digital reception comparison I noticed this morning at 7:37. With an antenna at 39 ft. and aimed at Cincinnati, the first pic is the reception from a 5000 kW analog station (WSTR-64) @ 100 miles and the second pic is the reception from a 1000 kW digital station (WLWT-DT 35) @ 103 miles.

Steve

Same here. I couldn't pull in WTHR at all last night, and my problems with WRTV continue (I couldn't pull in a good enough signal to record the OTA HD feed for LOST and LIFE ON MARS without dropouts on my HTPC last night, so I had to rely on the SD feed from DISH Network on my DVR receiver). Annoying as heck, because I'm counting on the OTA DTV transmissions to actually WORK, but I don't think that's going to happen as long as the stations are forced to shoulder the burden of continuing to maintain the analog transmitters in parallel.

Where are you located? No location listed with your profile. If you are within 30 to 40 miles of the broadcast towers, there should be plenty of signal from those two stations (WTHR-DT @ 1000 kW and WRTV-DT at almost 900 kW). If you are fairly close to the towers, I'm suspecting you are experiencing multi-path issues, which is related to too much signal bouncing around off of buildings, trees, etc. and entering your antenna at multiple times, thus causing decoding issues for your receiver. The best remedy for this reception issue is a more directional antenna which helps to see the true signal, not the multi-path (multiple) signals.

Steve

Where are you located? No location listed with your profile. If you are within 30 to 40 miles of the broadcast towers, there should be plenty of signal from those two stations (WTHR-DT @ 1000 kW and WRTV-DT at almost 900 kW). If you are fairly close to the towers, I'm suspecting you are experiencing multi-path issues, which is related to too much signal bouncing around off of buildings, trees, etc. and entering your antenna at multiple times, thus causing decoding issues for your receiver. The best remedy for this reception issue is a more directional antenna which helps to see the true signal, not the multi-path (multiple) signals.

Steve,

I'm on the northwest side of Indy, and you're spot-on -- multipath is an issue for me. I've got my TV (Viewsonic LCD equipped with an internal ATSC tuner) and my HTPC hooked-up to a DB2 antenna that I've got mounted on the roof attached to the back of my DISH Network antenna and aimed at the antenna towers which are all between 36 degrees and 44 degrees the northeast of me. I use a splitter to distribute the feed to the HTPC and the TV, so I can compare both side-by-side; the reception on the TV has been rock-solid with some degradation seen at times on the WTHR feed, buth I've been flat-out unable to lock on to the signal at times with my HTPC. I've swapped the cables back-and-forth with no improvement on the HTPC reception and no degradation on the TV reception. I'm located on the northwest side of Indy (Pike Township area), and according to Antennaweb.org I'm 3.2 miles from the WRTV tower and 5.4 miles from the WTHR tower.

Obviously, the ATSC tuner in my HTPC isn't dealing with the multipath as well as the ATSC tuner in my Viewsonic TV.

I'm using a first-generation ATSC tuner card in my HTPC, so I've addressed the issue on my end by ordering a new ATSC tuner that has a 5th-generation LG tuner frontend, which should be able to handle multipath as well as the tuner on my Viewsonic LCD. That will hopefully solve the majority of the problems on my end, but I won't be convinced that the DTV signals we're currently trying to receive are fully stable until AFTER the analog changeover.

I've had a couple of days now with U-verse. I don't consider myself a huge video perfectionist. Yes I have blu-ray and love it. I detest SD channels.

[...]



When I looked at UVerse in December, the thing that struck me was a shift/pulsing of dark backgrounds about once per second, which appears to be some kind of compression artifact from the codec. I noticed it watching Sports Center on ESPN HD on shots of the anchors, when looking at the dark colored backgrounds of the studio. I also noticed it in dark scenes during movies on HD channels.

Are you not seeing this now? This was my big issue as I could never be happy with a picture that rhythmically pulsed... my OCD tendencies would have me landed in an insane asylum after just a few hours of that... :)

Same here. I couldn't pull in WTHR at all last night, and my problems with WRTV continue (I couldn't pull in a good enough signal to record the OTA HD feed for LOST and LIFE ON MARS without dropouts on my HTPC last night, so I had to rely on the SD feed from DISH Network on my DVR receiver). Annoying as heck, because I'm counting on the OTA DTV transmissions to actually WORK, but I don't think that's going to happen as long as the stations are forced to shoulder the burden of continuing to maintain the analog transmitters in parallel.

Last summer I tweaked my antenna setup (I live near Keystone at the Crossing) and on that day I was able to pull in WTHR at about 96% strength on my Dish VIP receiver. Through the fall, the signal averaged in the 80s to low 90s. This winter, 70% to 75% seems typical with a few dips into the high 60s.

I get very occassional picture breakups (not worth climbing into the attic and trying to realign anything), but I don't watch a ton of stuff on channel 13. However, it's weird that the signal strength is so much lower than any other channel except WTTV (60-65 with lots of breakups - unwatchable). WRTV and WXIN come in about 94% to 96%, and the rest of the channels (WFYI, WISH, WNDY) are all about 100%.

When I looked at UVerse in December, the thing that struck me was a shift/pulsing of dark backgrounds about once per second, which appears to be some kind of compression artifact from the codec. I noticed it watching Sports Center on ESPN HD on shots of the anchors, when looking at the dark colored backgrounds of the studio. I also noticed it in dark scenes during movies on HD channels.

Are you not seeing this now? This was my big issue as I could never be happy with a picture that rhythmically pulsed... my OCD tendencies would have me landed in an insane asylum after just a few hours of that... :)

Yes that effect is there. I couldn't figure a way to describe it, glad you could. I can see it if I am too close to my HDTV. However, if I am farther away at the recommended distance it can't be seen.

I've also noticed the U-verse boxes don't scale to the resolution of the set. It shows the resolution of what is being sent. As a result whatever is broadcast is sent at the proper resolution.

The White House wants your opinion on The DTV Delay ACT Bill
President Obama wants to hear what the public has to say, you can comment here

http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing_room/dtv_delay_act/

The White House wants your opinion on The DTV Delay ACT Bill
President Obama wants to hear what the public has to say, you can comment here

http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing_room/dtv_delay_act/


Done! I doubt it will do any good at this point, but ohwell.
--Eric

The White House wants your opinion on The DTV Delay ACT Bill
President Obama wants to hear what the public has to say, you can comment here

http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing_room/dtv_delay_act/

Thanks for the heads-up -- I put in my $0.02.

I spoke with WRTV's engineer. As of today...the still plan on analog termination on 2/17.

I spoke with WRTV's engineer. As of today...the still plan on analog termination on 2/17.

Good to hear. At least one station here in Indy is forward-thinking. :-p

--Eric

WTHR Delaying switch to DTV (http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=9789058&nav=menu188_12).

Per the new DTV delay bill, two Indiana stations filed Friday to terminate analog TV service by 2/17/09:

WIPB-49 PBS Muncie, IN http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101294364&formid=910&fac_num=3646

WSBT-22 CBS South Bend, IN http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101294370&formid=910&fac_num=73983

I expect WNDU-16, NBC, South Bend and WSJV-28, Fox, Elkhart/South Bend to file to terminate, as these stations have posted their intention to do so via their websites. WSJV's website even states that the station plans to terminate the analog signal at 9 a.m. 2/17/09.
http://www.fox28.com/Global/story.asp?S=9789092

So far, it doesn't appear that WRTV-6 and WTTK-29 have refiled to terminate analog service by 2/17. If they intend to do so, they must file with the FCC prior to midnight tonight.

Steve

Another update on my reception problems -- I received and installed my new tuner card in my HTPC system on Saturday (bought an Airstar2 HD5000 card with a 5th-generation LG tuner), and my problems seem to be cured (knock on wood). WRTV and WTHR were rock-steady and perfectly viewable all weekend, both day and night. I did experience some hesitation at times on WTHR (not pixellation, just what seemed like the occasional stream interruption), but since WTHR is scheduled to change frequencies when the DTV change-over occurs I'm not too concerned about trying to fine-tune my antenna until I see how things look after the frequency change (I'm guessing that the VHF signal may be less prone to multipath, given that WISH is my most stable station overall).

So far, it doesn't appear that WRTV-6 and WTTK-29 have refiled to terminate analog service by 2/17. If they intend to do so, they must file with the FCC prior to midnight tonight.


It'll be quite unfortunate if all of the Indy stations keep broadcasting in analog until the new deadline.

I'm still curious as to why Obama hasn't signed the bill yet, though. After calling for the delay in the first place, what's the hold-up on his signature? We're barely a week out from the deadline, and the bill was passed nearly 5 days ago, at this point.

--Eric

It'll be quite unfortunate if all of the Indy stations keep broadcasting in analog until the new deadline.

I'm still curious as to why Obama hasn't signed the bill yet, though. After calling for the delay in the first place, what's the hold-up on his signature? We're barely a week out from the deadline, and the bill was passed nearly 5 days ago, at this point.

--Eric

Has anybody calculated how much CO2 will be produced by coal burning plants in order to power the redundant (analog and digital) transmitters?
Doesn't seem very "green" to me:)

Has anybody calculated how much CO2 will be produced by coal burning plants in order to power the redundant (analog and digital) transmitters?
Doesn't seem very "green" to me:)

I've read it's to the tune of $10,000 a month just in electricity... per station... so yeah thats a lot of non-greenness. :)

--E

It'll be quite unfortunate if all of the Indy stations keep broadcasting in analog until the new deadline.

I'm still curious as to why Obama hasn't signed the bill yet, though. After calling for the delay in the first place, what's the hold-up on his signature? We're barely a week out from the deadline, and the bill was passed nearly 5 days ago, at this point.

--Eric

He would be wise to perform an about-face and not sign the bill. He could look the part of being fiscally responsible by showcasing how much would be saved by not delaying this transition any longer.

Has anybody calculated how much CO2 will be produced by coal burning plants in order to power the redundant (analog and digital) transmitters?
Doesn't seem very "green" to me:)

I've been thinking about this aspect of running dual transmitters, especially the NBC owned and operated stations. This was one of the first groups last week to announce that their stations would continue analog service until June 12. And it was just a few months ago (2008) that NBC and its parent company had that "Go Green" kick, where every other commercial or promo was about saving the environment and/or the planet. Cut back on this, cut back on that.....Cut back on your use of electricity. Now this company turns around and hasn't even flinched at running all the analog transmitters at its stations. So much for the green thing.........

Eric, Pres. Obama said he wanted to receive comments from the public for five days before signing the new delay bill.

Steve

Eric, Pres. Obama said he wanted to receive comments from the public for five days before signing the new delay bill.


I must have missed the 5 day part. I knew he was taking comments. I gave him my 0.02:)

Thanks!
--Eric

I received a message from the WRTV engineer this afternoon and at that point they still had not made a decision.

So far this morning it doesn't appear that WRTV-6 will be signing off early. Also, it doesn't appear that WTTK-29 refiled to sign off 2/17.

Here's an interesting filing from WXIN-59. It will not be signing off early, but does plan to reduce its power by 50% (full power is 4470 kW).
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=728097

South Bend will have zero full power analog stations after 2/17 and Fort Wayne will be losing three full power stations: WPTA-21 (ABC), WISE-33 (NBC) and WFWA-39 (PBS).

Virtually every analog station in the Dayton, OH market will be dark after 2/17, including LIN's WDTN-2 (NBC). And, most of the stations in the Champaign/Decatur/Springfield, IL TV market will be signing off next week.

Steve

Bah!

--Eric

FCC list of stations terminating analog service on or before 2/17 (highlighted in red). Plus, the list indicates whether a station plans to be a nightlight station (those eligible per the FCC) for up to 30 days after normal broadcasts cease.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-221A5.xls

Steve

I love Indiana. We're so awesome! /SARCASM> .........................

question for anyone out there, i live in terre haute, subscribe to time warner cable. i am curious about purchasing a tivo and getting a cablecard through them instead of using their scientific atlantic hd dvr

anyone out there do this? and if so how is it?

Good reading:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/10/AR2009021002473.html?hpid=topnews


--Eric

I suspect that most of the NBC O&O stations are low-VHF (channels 2-6), and thus the lowest energy consumers of the 3 bands. Typical for a low-V station is a 25 or 30 kW transmitter, as opposed a 240 kW UHF blowtorch.

Add to that the fact that VHF stations are also more efficient than UHF, by and large, and the savings for turning off a channel 5 are nowhere near as big as turning off a channel 57, say.

</engineering tutorial>

Tom Weber
Engineering
WISH / WNDY / WIIH

I suspect that most of the NBC O&O stations are low-VHF (channels 2-6), and thus the lowest energy consumers of the 3 bands. Typical for a low-V station is a 25 or 30 kW transmitter, as opposed a 240 kW UHF blowtorch.

Add to that the fact that VHF stations are also more efficient than UHF, by and large, and the savings for turning off a channel 5 are nowhere near as big as turning off a channel 57, say.

</engineering tutorial>

Tom Weber
Engineering
WISH / WNDY / WIIH
Tom...are you guys waiting until June 12th or is there a chance you could terminate analog before then?

(I realize you won't be doing so on 2/17)

This is slightly off topic for this site, BUT, I can't believe how the combination of Congress and the FCC is making it SO FREAKING difficult for TV stations to financially operate as a stable business, and to make ANY sense to its public viewers.

As of yesterday, the FCC is now holding 123 analog TV stations HOSTAGE! At the moment, 123 TV stations have been told by the FCC that they CANNOT sign off on 2/17 until they meet MORE guidelines! These stations have until Friday at 6 p.m. to REFILE with yet more plans to make the FCC happy. Today is 2/12 and these 123 stations have no idea if they will be approved to sign off on 2/17....just five days off! IMHO, this is unbelievable. It takes an arm of government to come up with this stuff.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-09-7A1.doc

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-09-7A2.xls

Steve

http://www.theindychannel.com/digital-tv/18700711/detail.html

IMHO, this is unbelievable. It takes an arm of government to come up with this stuff.

Steve: Such a sad state of affairs. This could go down as Obama's first major blunder, when its all said and done. I still believe that Wednesday is going to be even MORE of a mess *now* than it was going to be, if the schedule had been left alone. I'm going to be interested to see what the FCC does with those stations.

--Eric

As of yesterday, the FCC is now holding 123 analog TV stations HOSTAGE!It is a lousy situation ... and there are a couple of threads about DTV Delay going to talk about it:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15802193#post15802193
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15802364#post15802364

A few months won't make any difference to anything or anybody, except a few multibillion dollar corporations. Given the unemployment rate and bad economy, why not delay a little? There will still be lots of unprepared people come June, but it keeps some people connected for awhile longer.

I haven't been impressed with what I've seen so far in terms of plans for using the freed up spectrum. Pay TV service for cell phones? Great... just what this country needs. More pay TV. But that's all for another thread and another place... :)

And personally I'd rather my little portable TV keep working on its own without having to drag around a converter box. But I know I'm in the minority.

since when has channel 13 had a 3rd channel? after the wind storm the other day I had to unplug my dtvpal after electricity flashes. now it shows a 3rd 13 channel that looks like sports?

speaking of wed, wrtv and lost, again I couldn't watch lost in hd. the wind was just destroying the signal (and my antenna is in my attic).

since when has channel 13 had a 3rd channel? after the wind storm the other day I had to unplug my dtvpal after electricity flashes. now it shows a 3rd 13 channel that looks like sports?

speaking of wed, wrtv and lost, again I couldn't watch lost in hd. the wind was just destroying the signal (and my antenna is in my attic).

The 3rd channel for WTHR is new to me. I just checked and sure enough it's there. It's labeled as Universal Sports (Network?) and USN.

Not sure where you are located, but your issue sounds like a problem with multipath, which is actually due to too much signal at your location bouncing/reflecting off of other objects and confusing your receiver. See these recent posts.....
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15742257&postcount=5287

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15743263&postcount=5288

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15775759&postcount=5299

I would suggest that you need a more directional antenna to help block the reflected signals (yagi-style UHF antennas tend to be the best with multipath) or you might look for a newer receiver (5th or 6th generation chip/technology). The newer receivers, especially the 6th generation, are MUCH better at dealing with multipath issues.

Also, you might try reaiming your antenna and/or finding a little better "sweet spot" in your attic. I know back in 2001 when I purchased my first HDTV setup with a first generation receiver, multipath issues were really bad. I COULD NOT find one spot in my attic that would work for all the main Indy stations.

Steve

A few months won't make any difference to anything or anybody, except a few multibillion dollar corporations.It will cost local stations a substantial amount of money to keep both analog and digital running.

Given the unemployment rate and bad economy, why not delay a little? There will still be lots of unprepared people come June, but it keeps some people connected for awhile longer. I don't see how that has anything to do with it. Watching television isn't a right. The converter boxes are extremely cheap when you use a coupon.

I haven't been impressed with what I've seen so far in terms of plans for using the freed up spectrum. Pay TV service for cell phones? Great... just what this country needs. More pay TV. But that's all for another thread and another place... :)Emergency and first responders? Do we need to witness a repeat of the inability for them to communicate like we witnessed on 9/11?

since when has channel 13 had a 3rd channel? after the wind storm the other day I had to unplug my dtvpal after electricity flashes. now it shows a 3rd 13 channel that looks like sports?

speaking of wed, wrtv and lost, again I couldn't watch lost in hd. the wind was just destroying the signal (and my antenna is in my attic).

Thanks for the heads-up on the 3rd channel from channel 13 -- I'll have to do another channel scan to pick up the new feed . . . wouldn't have even known about it if you hadn't posted, so thanks!

Where are you located? I've got a DB2 antenna mounted on the back side of my DISH Network antenna (DISH points to the south, the DB2 points to the north where all the local broadcast antennas are located), and I didn't have any problems with LOST last night (minor pixellation, but the recording looks watchable . . . haven't watched the whole episode yet, though).

I'm on the northwest side of Indy, in Pike Township, so I'm between 3 - 5 miles of all the major antennas (WTTV is to the south, so that's the one station I can't pick up).

It will cost local stations a substantial amount of money to keep both analog and digital running.

They'll survive...

I don't see how that has anything to do with it. Watching television isn't a right. The converter boxes are extremely cheap when you use a coupon.

I suppose they're cheap if you have a job and you're able to find a coupon (not easy from what I've read). TV may not be a right, but it's very important nonetheless, especially with peak severe weather season around the corner.

Emergency and first responders? Do we need to witness a repeat of the inability for them to communicate like we witnessed on 9/11?

Right... let's cut off an important service to millions of mostly poor, unemployed, elderly, and uneducated people during a bad recession in the name of an unprecedented, unlikely to ever recur terrorist event. That's a huge overreaction (like nearly everything that has followed from the Bush administration due to 9/11), and there are surely other ways to solve whatever issues may exist in the communications systems of first responders.

Jeff

since when has channel 13 had a 3rd channel? after the wind storm the other day I had to unplug my dtvpal after electricity flashes. now it shows a 3rd 13 channel that looks like sports?


My 13-3 picture appears incredibly bandwidth starved. I find myself moving from preferring one perfect HDTV channel per station to preferring one or two sub-channels that might actually broadcast something interesting from time to time, even if it's blocky.
And believe me, 13-3 is really blocky, especially when the skiers go flying down the hill.
I wonder what other sports this channel might show?

They'll survive... We'll remember this comment if layoffs become necessary. Especially considering the fact that financial plans for these stations did not originally include providing both signals after 2/17. You're concerned for employees in our current economic situation, yet you have no sympathy for a business having to deal with additional financial strain.

I suppose they're cheap if you have a job and you're able to find a coupon (not easy from what I've read). TV may not be a right, but it's very important nonetheless, especially with peak severe weather season around the corner. If you don't have a job...watching TV should be the least of your concerns. Simply apply or reapply for a coupon. Ever hear of a weather radio by the way? You shouldn't rely on a TV when a storm is approaching. A battery operated weather radio is a much wiser choice.

Right... let's cut off an important service to millions of mostly poor, unemployed, elderly, and uneducated people during a bad recession in the name of an unprecedented, unlikely to ever recur terrorist event. That's a huge overreaction (like nearly everything that has followed from the Bush administration due to 9/11), and there are surely other ways to solve whatever issues may exist in the communications systems of first responders.

JeffLeave your politics at the door. They have no place here.

The fact remains that even during normal emergency situations the current communication networks and systems being used are in dire need of attention. There is no need to discuss this now as it has already been established...several years ago.

Do you realize how many years this transition process has been in motion? If someone has not managed to prepare themselves by this point...delaying this will not change anything for those people.

Viewing local television is not a right. If it is important enough to you, when compared to other priorities in your life, you will apply for a coupon and save up the additional $20 needed to purchase a converter. An adequate amount of time has been provided.

If we only focus on the last year that folks have had to prepare for this transition...you only had to save a nickel a day in order to pay for a converter with a coupon. A story appeared in the Indianapolis Star last year about homeless men and woman who ask for money downtown. Many were able to clear $100 in one day. A nickel a day for a year certainly shouldn't be a problem for the rest of us.

You didn't like my little jab at Bush, but you do like to preach. "If you don't have a job...watching TV should be the least of your concerns." "Viewing local television is not a right." "A nickel a day for a year certainly shouldn't be a problem for the rest of us."

In any event, I'm glad the local stations here are going to provide service to everyone for awhile longer. The DTV switch is more about making money than solving some critical societal problem. The government made big money auctioning the spectrum. If the government made money on the auctions, then lobbyists and special interests made even more money. Teeny-tiny companies like Qualcomm, Verizon, and Echostar will make big money monetizing this "spectrum." Electronics companies in Japan and China made money due to confusion about the transition and stand to make even more when millions of pieces of equipment become instantly obsolete. And don't forget about the TV and movie studios who finally get their wish to banish all things analog from the face of the earth so they can squeeze every penny out of their content and control it in ways that we've never seen before.

Meanwhile, while all this money making by the rich and powerful is taking place, nobody's looking out for the interests of people who have absolutely no interest in paying for TV and who have no interest in knowing anything about SD, HD, HDMI, HDCP, 1080P, or DRM.

Think about it, and follow the money.

I agree that we have a mess with the DTV cutoff delay, but there's no real silver bullet solution. On one hand we have two competing public safety issues:

--millions of people could lose access to their main source of news and weather alerts, creating public safety issues during Winter and Spring storms
--millions could have problems if the first responder communication systems prove inadequate in case of a national or regional emergency (problems that could be alleviated by opening up bandwidth for more emergency frequencies)

Without politicizing this, I think the first problem is more likely. There will be storms in the Spring (and maybe a few Winter storms left), and people will need to be notified about them. There was an idea floated in an earlier post about weather radios, which is a great potential solution. Everyone should have one. However, the same people who haven't purchased converter boxes probably won't purchase weather radios for many of the same reasons. If I were with the FCC, I'd look into taking some of what's left of the converter box budget and using it to purchase and distribute weather radios to those who either can't get converter boxes or lose channels after the switch due to their locations.

There are also problems with the remaining converter box "holdouts":

--many of them are a combination of technically unaware, unable to install converter boxes themselves (watch an elderly person with arthritis try to screw in a coax jack -- it's not pretty), or financially disadvantaged
--the gov't has run out of money for coupons for the time being, so millions of people who have tried to get them have been waitlisted

Sure people could drop the 40 or 50 bucks themselves right now, but if the gov't says it will have a coupon, most people are going to want to use that rather than spend their own money.

Finally, DTV signals, despite all their advantages that we love, aren't as easy to receive as analog for many people (as quite a few of the reception discussions on this board prove), so quite a large number of people will go from having X channels now to having X-Y channels after the cutoff. I don't think there's an easy solution to this -- DTV is what it is -- but that will make a lot of people wait until the last minute to switch (and unhappy once they do switch).

All that said, I think delaying the switch solves very little. Yes, it gives the gov't more time to sort out the coupon situation, but with the hardships the stations now have to deal with of running dual transmitters for longer and the general confusion that is ensuing among pretty much everyone, I don't think it is/will be worth it. A better solution would have been to keep the original date and simply solve the problems after the fact. Yes, people would complain, but resources would be better spent on contingency plans instead of alternate plans for a new date. We'll still have problems in June, after all. We're merely delaying the inevitable.

I, for one, would like to see this thread get back on topic.

You didn't like my little jab at Bush, but you do like to preach. "If you don't have a job...watching TV should be the least of your concerns." "Viewing local television is not a right." "A nickel a day for a year certainly shouldn't be a problem for the rest of us."

In any event, I'm glad the local stations here are going to provide service to everyone for awhile longer. The DTV switch is more about making money than solving some critical societal problem. The government made big money auctioning the spectrum. If the government made money on the auctions, then lobbyists and special interests made even more money. Teeny-tiny companies like Qualcomm, Verizon, and Echostar will make big money monetizing this "spectrum." Electronics companies in Japan and China made money due to confusion about the transition and stand to make even more when millions of pieces of equipment become instantly obsolete. And don't forget about the TV and movie studios who finally get their wish to banish all things analog from the face of the earth so they can squeeze every penny out of their content and control it in ways that we've never seen before.

Meanwhile, while all this money making by the rich and powerful is taking place, nobody's looking out for the interests of people who have absolutely no interest in paying for TV and who have no interest in knowing anything about SD, HD, HDMI, HDCP, 1080P, or DRM.

Think about it, and follow the money.
It has now become obvious that you haven't a clue on this subject. I'm moving on.

I, for one, would like to see this thread get back on topic.

Agreed:)

Channel 4 HD was unwatchable last night. There, back on topic.

Unfortunately WTHR is always weak for me-- unlike the other three. I sure hope their impending move to VHF helps in the signal strength department.

My thoughts exactly. WISH is in the VHF range and it's rock-solid, probably the best/strongest ATSC signal I receive, so I'm hoping that I see a similar gain when WTHR moves to it's new frequency in the VHF range.

WRTV has been very solid this week -- even on Wednesday with the high winds I got a good feed for LOST with only occasional video dropouts/lags (my DB2 antenna is mounted on the roof, on the back of my DISH Network dish, so I'm thinking the winds my have been the cause). Otherwise, WRTV has been solid all week.

WDNI-LP (low power), Indianapolis, which recently moved from channel 65 to channel 19, has filed to transition from analog to digital on channel 19. http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=28199 If approved, WDNI-LD 19 would operate with 15 kW. This would be the third LD for Indy. The other two LDs, already approved with CPs (construction permits) are WIIH-LD 8 http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=167765 and WIPX-LD 34 http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=65121

Steve

My thoughts exactly. WISH is in the VHF range and it's rock-solid, probably the best/strongest ATSC signal I receive, so I'm hoping that I see a similar gain when WTHR moves to it's new frequency in the VHF range.

WRTV has been very solid this week -- even on Wednesday with the high winds I got a good feed for LOST with only occasional video dropouts/lags (my DB2 antenna is mounted on the roof, on the back of my DISH Network dish, so I'm thinking the winds my have been the cause). Otherwise, WRTV has been solid all week.
Different story here. I never have trouble with WTHR and WRTV. I always have trouble with WISH.

I am on the west side of Indy, living on the second floor using 7$ rabbit ears from years ago with my hdtv, here is what I am seeing:

4 is unwatchble, always
6 is really hard to get, but possible enough for Scrubs once a week.
8 is rock solid, even when the rabbit ears fall behind the tv stand
13 is alright, decent in prime time, really hard to get on Sunday for meet the Press - Couldnt get it with the same antenna position that was perfect for SNL

20 is OK with some tweaking
23 is sketchy, and
59 is solid as a rock (and it is a daen good thing, couldnt live without house and the simpsons :))


I bought one of these (http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-DB2-Directional-Antenna/dp/B000EHUE7I/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1234724720&sr=8-2) hoping it helps.

Also, whats the story with IMC, it is analog only and it comes and goes, it is a great station, but where is it on the digital spectrum?

PS: WTTV, Bring back the Tube.

I am on the west side of Indy, living on the second floor using 7$ rabbit ears from years ago with my hdtv, here is what I am seeing:

4 is unwatchble, always
6 is really hard to get, but possible enough for Scrubs once a week.
8 is rock solid, even when the rabbit ears fall behind the tv stand
13 is alright, decent in prime time, really hard to get on Sunday for meet the Press - Couldnt get it with the same antenna position that was perfect for SNL

20 is OK with some tweaking
23 is sketchy, and
59 is solid as a rock (and it is a daen good thing, couldnt live without house and the simpsons :))


I bought one of these (http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-DB2-Directional-Antenna/dp/B000EHUE7I/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1234724720&sr=8-2) hoping it helps.

Also, whats the story with IMC, it is analog only and it comes and goes, it is a great station, but where is it on the digital spectrum?

PS: WTTV, Bring back the Tube.

Regarding IMC, WDNI-LP 19, see a couple posts above (#5335).

The Tube went out of business. It won't be back.

Since WTTV-DT increased its ERP to 870 kW, I don't understand why so many viewers have issues receiving this station. I'm on the far north side of Indy, just south of Carmel, @ 37 miles from the tower, and I'm able to receive this station with virtually any UHF antenna in almost any location, including the floor in my basement (partial basement with no external walls, no windows) I've attached a pic showing the signal strength of WTTV-DT using one of the new 6th generation CECBs (Insignia NS-DXA1) with the Zenith Silver Sensor UHF antenna (no preamp) sitting on the basement floor.

Just as the engine in your car needs an octane rating of 87 or more to run and perform well, a digital receiver needs a good, steady and multipath-free signal in order to continuously decode audio and video without errors.

Steve

After watching a lot of basketball games on Big Ten and ESPN (Dish), the IU game on WISH HD (OTA) looked pretty bad in terms of the picture quality. There were a lot of compression artifacts, especially on red colors and in faster motion. The gym floor looked bad too - very grainy and "pixelly". Maybe it was a bad feed from CBS, or maybe some settings need to be tweaked somewhere?

I am on the west side of Indy, living on the second floor using 7$ rabbit ears from years ago with my hdtv, here is what I am seeing:

4 is unwatchble, always
6 is really hard to get, but possible enough for Scrubs once a week.
8 is rock solid, even when the rabbit ears fall behind the tv stand
13 is alright, decent in prime time, really hard to get on Sunday for meet the Press - Couldnt get it with the same antenna position that was perfect for SNL

20 is OK with some tweaking
23 is sketchy, and
59 is solid as a rock (and it is a daen good thing, couldnt live without house and the simpsons :))


I bought one of these (http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-DB2-Directional-Antenna/dp/B000EHUE7I/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1234724720&sr=8-2) hoping it helps.

Also, whats the story with IMC, it is analog only and it comes and goes, it is a great station, but where is it on the digital spectrum?

PS: WTTV, Bring back the Tube.

I believe that's the exact same antenna I'm using (got mine a bit cheaper from eBay) -- the DB2 is a directional antenna, so if you're on the west side of Indy and you point it towards the WISH/WTHR/WRTV/WXIN antennas on the northwest side of town, you will NOT be able to get WTTV at all.

Mine's on my roof, mounted on the back of my DISH Network antenna -- not sure how well a DB2 would work indoors or in an attic, but if you can mount it externally you should be able to get everything but WTTV.

Since WTTV-DT increased its ERP to 870 kW, I don't understand why so many viewers have issues receiving this station. I'm on the far north side of Indy, just south of Carmel, @ 37 miles from the tower, and I'm able to receive this station with virtually any UHF antenna in almost any location, including the floor in my basement (partial basement with no external walls, no windows) I've attached a pic showing the signal strength of WTTV-DT using one of the new 6th generation CECBs (Insignia NS-DXA1) with the Zenith Silver Sensor UHF antenna (no preamp) sitting on the basement floor.

Steve: I wish I was like you and could get such a good signal on WTTV-DT! Infact, I was doing some work on my MythTV box today and did a re-scan of channels, and WTTV-DT wasn't even found! Heh. Some days its better than others for me, and I guess today is one of the "others" :)

In other news, I did pick up the third WTHR channel in my re-scan, but it has no listing data via Tribune's listing services (zap2it/schedules direct)... I submitting the new channel to Schedules direct, so if anyone else uses their listing services, perhaps they'll get it added soon.

I also e-mailed WTHR to ask what the channel was (before submitting the issue to Schedules Direct), and this is what Dr. D from WTHR reported:

This is a new NBC Universal network – the Universal Sports Network, which will also include some local sports programming. The Programming Department is right now working with the various listings services so that 13.3 USN will soon be listed with all of the listings services.


--Eric

Eric, I've never tried the MythTV box but I have used and tested a number of various DTV/HDTV receivers since 2001, and my best receivers to date are the CECBs, especially the Zenith DTT900/DTT901 and twin sister, the Insignia NS-DXA1. These models use the latest 6th generation chip. Does the MythTV box contain the latest chip/technology, too?

Eric, I've never tried the MythTV box but I have used and tested a number of various DTV/HDTV receivers since 2001, and my best receivers to date are the CECBs, especially the Zenith DTT900/DTT901 and twin sister, the Insignia NS-DXA1. These models use the latest 6th generation chip. Does the MythTV box contain the latest chip/technology, too?

MythTV is actually a linux-based software package that offers DVR capabilities. Couple it with some ATSC tuner cards, and you have your own DVR.

The tuner cards I use are actually Hauppauge HVR-1250's. They are generally well regarded as being some of the best tuner cards available. I wasnt able to find any information about the actual tuner technology on the cards, but they are fairly newly released cards, so I would assume the tuners are decent.

I suppose I could connect my antenna directly to my TV, and see if its able to tune WTTV-4... and compare that to the HVR-1250. I think I'll do that tonight and see what sort of results I get. I'll report back my findings.

Ciao
--Eric

I have been fairly tolerant of the local stations growing pains as they learn how to broadcast their HD signals. A recent example concerns emergency weather crawls that drop back to SD. There has been a lot of new equipment to purchase to handle HD correctly.

My current beef concerns the audio volume on WTHR. I receive their HD signal over Comcast from Anderson. The audio is being fed from my Tivo S3 through my 5.1 AV receiver.

I can be listening to programming at a very comfortable level until a local break comes on. The jump in volume blows me away.

Are others experiencing this?

Latest list of full-power analog stations terminating service before or on Feb. 17.
http://www.fcc.gov/021609AttachmentA.pdf

Steve

I have been fairly tolerant of the local stations growing pains as they learn how to broadcast their HD signals. A recent example concerns emergency weather crawls that drop back to SD. There has been a lot of new equipment to purchase to handle HD correctly.

My current beef concerns the audio volume on WTHR. I receive their HD signal over Comcast from Anderson. The audio is being fed from my Tivo S3 through my 5.1 AV receiver.

I can be listening to programming at a very comfortable level until a local break comes on. The jump in volume blows me away.

Are others experiencing this?

Every damn day...

Every damn day...

Same here. Thankfully, I'm using a Windows-based HTPC that works like a MythTV setup, so I usually record shows then watch them later so I can skip the commercials, TiVo-style.

The tuner cards I use are actually Hauppauge HVR-1250's. They are generally well regarded as being some of the best tuner cards available. I wasnt able to find any information about the actual tuner technology on the cards, but they are fairly newly released cards, so I would assume the tuners are decent.

I was previously using a TwinhanDTV ATSC D+A (model 3250) tuner card in my HTPC setup -- this had a first- or second-generation tuner that didn't deal with multpath issues very well.

I recently switched over to a TechniSat AirStar-HD5000-PCI card which has a fifth-generation LG tuner that handles multipath issues MUCH better (even better than the built-in tuner in my Viewsonic TV, which was previously my "best" ATSC tuner).

I have been fairly tolerant of the local stations growing pains as they learn how to broadcast their HD signals. A recent example concerns emergency weather crawls that drop back to SD. There has been a lot of new equipment to purchase to handle HD correctly.

My current beef concerns the audio volume on WTHR. I receive their HD signal over Comcast from Anderson. The audio is being fed from my Tivo S3 through my 5.1 AV receiver.

I can be listening to programming at a very comfortable level until a local break comes on. The jump in volume blows me away.

Are others experiencing this?

WXIN does this a lot too. But I believe it's because the HDTV broadcasts are in Dolby Digital but the old analog signal is Pro Logic.

Update on my reception situation (from the northwest side of Indy): Re-aimed the antenna over the weekend (fine-tuned the aiming to make sure I had the optimum position for WISH/WTHR/WRTV/WXIN reception), and my reception seems flawless. Managed to record HEROES tonight on WTHR with no pixellation, glitching, etc. -- it was picture perfect, and the audio was fine. Definitely a big improvement, because WTHR had previously been one of my "bad" channels.

Looks like I might have my problems solved.

When did WISH move their transmitter to the northside? I thought they were on the eastside on Post Rd.

What is on the Post Rd. tower?

Not sure about the Post Road towers, Alan, but the WISH tower has been at 79th & Township Line Road as long as I can remember.

:confused:

Just enter your address into the Antennaweb.org site to get a look at where the antennas are with regards to your location:

http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx

When did WISH move their transmitter to the northside? I thought they were on the eastside on Post Rd.

What is on the Post Rd. tower?

According to my old clipping from The Indianapolis Star, WISH-TV switched from the old tower on Post Road to the northside location on March 7, 1995. Yes, I'm a broadcasting geek.... :-)

Last I knew, the old WISH tower is still an active back-up facility for WISH. I'm sure Tom will correct me if I'm mistaken. Also, not too many years ago, WZPL-99.5 moved from the nearby Emmis-owned tower to the old WISH tower.

Steve

According to my old clipping from The Indianapolis Star, WISH-TV switched from the old tower on Post Road to the northside location on March 7, 1995. Yes, I'm a broadcasting geek.... :-)


I thought I was a broadcast geek too. I wonder how I missed that move and am just now catching up.

I'm currently watching the Mentalist in HD from WISH-DT while monitoring WIPB-49, Muncie, which will be signing off at 11:59 p.m. tonight. Channel 49 is Indiana's 4th oldest analog TV station. It first signed on April 29, 1953 as WLBC-TV, a commercial TV station with NBC as its primary network affiliate, along with some pre-recorded programming from ABC. I still remember watching Bonanza back in the 60s on WLBC-TV. The station was later sold to Ball State University and signed on as WIPB-49 on October 31, 1971. http://www.bsu.edu/wipb/about/ A little slice of Hoosier TV history.

WIPB-DT is currently on ch. 52 and will not be able to move to its post-transition channel (23) until WNDY-23 signs off (June 12?).

Steve

Post Rd. was our main facility from sign-on in 1954 until 1995. It is at present still a back-up site, tho there is some question as to whether it can still be an effective backup for channel 9, our DTV assigned channel. We need to do some analysis of the antenna and line to be sure.

Tom Weber
WISH Engineering

Hello,
I live in Indy, southside. I have a Samsung 30" WS CRT that was purchased in '04. It is an HDTV (just to clarify). This set has performed perfectly over the years until 3-4 days ago. I only watch OTA HD, no cable or anything...and I have done this for almost 2 years now. Anyway, a few days ago I tuned in to Fox 59...and the volume muted after 10 sec. then the TV started to cycle on and off every 30 sec. It would not let me use any controls on the remote or the TV until I crawled around back, unplugged it, then plugged it back in. It has done this everyday, but after 6 pm its ok. NO OTHER CHANNEL DOES THIS. Im wondering if anyone else has this problem. BTW, Im in an apt. TV is protected with a Monster (im sure its just a name) surge protecter...and like i said, there are no issues with any other channels. Thanks for any advice. I guess the worst thing would be me "having" to buy a new 50" panny pdp, lol.

Old question, but I want to be sure. Is WISH the only major Indy local (6, 8, 13, 59) which is using a VHF signal? It is the only one I cannot get...not at all.

Old question, but I want to be sure. Is WISH the only major Indy local (6, 8, 13, 59) which is using a VHF signal? It is the only one I cannot get...not at all.

At the present time, yes, WISH-DT is the only local VHF signal. After WISH-8 signs off, I'm wondering how many viewers will be able to receive WIIH-LD 8 with .3 kW (300 watts).

At 5.5 miles from the WISH tower, WISH-DT is currently very strong and stable. No issues.

At the present time, yes, WISH-DT is the only local VHF signal. After WISH-8 signs off, I'm wondering how many viewers will be able to receive WIIH-LD 8 with .3 kW (300 watts).

At 5.5 miles from the WISH tower, WISH-DT is currently very strong and stable. No issues.
I am 18-19 miles from these towers. I get a strong enough signal all all but 8.1. I can't even get a whiff of 8.1.

I can however get a very poor quality signal of the analog 8.

I am 18-19 miles from these towers. I get a strong enough signal all all but 8.1. I can't even get a whiff of 8.1.

I can however get a very poor quality signal of the analog 8.

I am over fifty miles from the Indy transmitters.
I get both analog 8 and the digital 8s as well or better than the rest of the Indy signals.
Is your antenna a UHF only model?

I am 18-19 miles from these towers. I get a strong enough signal all all but 8.1. I can't even get a whiff of 8.1.

I can however get a very poor quality signal of the analog 8.

If your analog signal is poor, it sounds like you need a better VHF antenna. At your distance, both analog and digital from WISH should be very strong and rock solid.

My dad lives 37 miles from their tower and with an old Radio Shack VHF antenna sitting on a box in his attic, WISH-DT is very strong and stable. This same old VHF antenna will even pick up the main UHF DTVs like WTHR-DT, WXIN-DT, WRTV-DT and WFYI-DT, but a couple of different UHF-only antennas in his attic will not receive WISH-DT. The wavelength of VHF frequencies is longer than UHF frequencies, so the antenna elements must be longer.

Steve

I am over fifty miles from the Indy transmitters.
I get both analog 8 and the digital 8s as well or better than the rest of the Indy signals.
Is your antenna a UHF only model?

Hey Nat, are you able to receive the Terre Haute digitals (WTHI-DT 24, WTWO-DT 36 and WFXW-DT 39? I believe WTWO-DT is currently at full power from a temporary antenna and WFXW-DT is still back at low power until an issue with their new antenna is corrected. Thanks.

Oh, and BTW, can you tell if WTWO-2 (analog) is off the air or at low power? Thanks.

Steve

If your analog signal is poor, it sounds like you need a better VHF antenna. At your distance, both analog and digital from WISH should be very strong and rock solid.

My dad lives 37 miles from their tower and with an old Radio Shack VHF antenna sitting on a box in his attic, WISH-DT is very strong and stable. This same old VHF antenna will even pick up the main UHF DTVs like WTHR-DT, WXIN-DT, WRTV-DT and WFYI-DT, but a couple of different UHF-only antennas in his attic will not receive WISH-DT. The wavelength of VHF frequencies is longer than UHF frequencies, so the antenna elements must be longer.

Steve
I've tried two different VHF antennas so far with the same result.

Hey Nat, are you able to receive the Terre Haute digitals (WTHI-DT 24, WTWO-DT 36 and WFXW-DT 39? I believe WTWO-DT is currently at full power from a temporary antenna and WFXW-DT is still back at low power until an issue with their new antenna is corrected. Thanks.

Oh, and BTW, can you tell if WTWO-2 (analog) is off the air or at low power? Thanks.

Steve

Steve,
I've got to turn my antenna towards Terre Haute by hand to find out (long story), but I will do that in the next few days.
I'll bet I get lucky, because I had great luck on 10-1 when my rotor was working.

Old question, but I want to be sure. Is WISH the only major Indy local (6, 8, 13, 59) which is using a VHF signal? It is the only one I cannot get...not at all.

I understand WTHR will be joining WISH in the VHF range once it transitions to a digital-only signal.

That's correct. WTHR will broadcast its digital signal using VHF channel 13.

WLFI in Lafayette will continue to use VHF channel 11 for its digital signal, and WTHI in Terre Haute will use its VHF channel 10 for its digital signal after the analog cutoff. All these in addition to WISH continuing to use VHF channel 9 for their digital signal.

The quality of reception on WISH-8 analog is the single best clue for most folks as to whether they'll have success picking up WISH-DT over channel 9. If WISH-8 analog is noisy, or has lots of ghosts, then chances of WISH-DT are much decreased. (One of the nice things about analog is that it's easier to tell if the signal quality is good. It's a major reason why we tell folks to work on their digital reception while analog is still up and operating.)

Tom Weber
WISH / WNDY Engineering

........(One of the nice things about analog is that it's easier to tell if the signal quality is good. It's a major reason why we tell folks to work on their digital reception while analog is still up and operating.)

Tom Weber
WISH / WNDY Engineering

Thanks, Tom.
I hadn't even thought about that aspect of the elimination of analog. I judge my chances of getting a digital signal (and quality of a digital tuner) by looking at the quality of the corresponding analog signal.
All or nothing certainly has it's disadvantages when it comes to aiming an antenna!

General reception update from the northwest side of Indy (Pike Township, inside of I-465):

Had some problems with the signal from WRTV last Wednesday night (the audio and video for Life on Mars got glitchy within the first five minutes and we were missing some dialog so I switched over from the OTA feed to my standard-def feed from DISH Network).

WTHR seemed rock-solid last night -- the Heroes broadcast was perfect (both picture and sound).

WISH remains solid, as always (probably my benchmark for OTA reception, along with WXIN).

EDITED TO ADD:

Question for Tom -- I hadn't been able to receive WNDY for the past week or so and was ready to write it off, but I noticed over the weekend that it was back and the signal was as solid as ever (right up there with WISH and WXIN). Has something changed?

Question for Tom -- I hadn't been able to receive WNDY for the past week or so and was ready to write it off, but I noticed over the weekend that it was back and the signal was as solid as ever (right up there with WISH and WXIN). Has something changed?

My reception for WNDY has also improved greatly. Last week I realized WNDY runs South Park in syndication, so I added it into my DVR queue. Most of the week, it was pixelated and I couldnt even watch it -- but I left it in my queue because I wanted to see if I could tweak it and get it better, when I had some free time.

Then poof, all of a sudden, the last 3 recordings have been perfect... and I didn't even have to change a thing. Reception is much better. In fact I just watched an episode this morning, and I didn't see a single issue with the picture in the whole episode.

--Eric

We had some transmitter problems on the WNDY analog side about 10 days ago, but everything's been fine for over a week now.

We've also been changing to some updated transmission gear between the studio and the transmitter for WNDY-HD, but it's not the type of thing that I would expect to make a difference that you describe. But, hey, I'll take whatever improvements I can get.

Maybe it's reduced interference, due to the massive analog shutoff last week. Oh, wait.... <g>

Tom Weber
WISH/WNDY Engineering

That's correct. WTHR will broadcast its digital signal using VHF channel 13.

WLFI in Lafayette will continue to use VHF channel 11 for its digital signal, and WTHI in Terre Haute will use its VHF channel 10 for its digital signal after the analog cutoff. All these in addition to WISH continuing to use VHF channel 9 for their digital signal.

The quality of reception on WISH-8 analog is the single best clue for most folks as to whether they'll have success picking up WISH-DT over channel 9. If WISH-8 analog is noisy, or has lots of ghosts, then chances of WISH-DT are much decreased. (One of the nice things about analog is that it's easier to tell if the signal quality is good. It's a major reason why we tell folks to work on their digital reception while analog is still up and operating.)

Tom Weber
WISH / WNDY Engineering

At lunch I noticed there was a TV in the restaurant with rabbit ears, showing WISH-8. The picture was really snowy and grainy (but readable). I'm guessing that will be a no-go with digital, even though it's only in Carmel.

It might be a no-go with rabbit ears, but I would almost guarantee even a marginal antenna would be rock solid.
Just my guess.

There may be different issues, as well. I went to one store which was getting fine reception for the UHF DTV channels, but when I saw their VHF reception, I knew instantly that they would have a problem. The set was near a neon sign, and there was a ton of noise and interference on the VHF frequencies.

Fortunately, not many homes have neon signs near their antennas!

Tom Weber
WISH / WNDY Engineering

Anyone else have problems with WRTV during Lost last night?

I recorded LOST on my HTPC setup but I didn't get a chance to watch it. I did do a quick check of the recording before I went to bed to see if the first few minutes showed any issues and I didn't see any noticeable glitches in the video (I did the check on my remote monitor, not the TV, so I wasn't able to preview the audio). I'll be watching it tonight hopefully, so I'll report back on my results later.

I recorded LOST on my HTPC setup but I didn't get a chance to watch it. I did do a quick check of the recording before I went to bed to see if the first few minutes showed any issues and I didn't see any noticeable glitches in the video (I did the check on my remote monitor, not the TV, so I wasn't able to preview the audio). I'll be watching it tonight hopefully, so I'll report back on my results later.The first couple of minutes were OK, then it started.

No problems with Lost recorded on my 722. Glitch-free.

Went up to my attic and found the antenna had fallen over. Duh!

The WRTV reception during LOST was fine for me -- no audio or video glitches at all.

Sorry to hear about the antenna falling over -- easy fix, though, so that's a good thing!

I recorded Lost on U-verse and it looked fine.

Went up to my attic and found the antenna had fallen over. Duh!

Tell crazy uncle Louie to settle down up there...

Or crazy Uncle Leo from Seinfeld. Keep him out of your attic!

Steve

MythTV is actually a linux-based software package that offers DVR capabilities. Couple it with some ATSC tuner cards, and you have your own DVR.

The tuner cards I use are actually Hauppauge HVR-1250's. They are generally well regarded as being some of the best tuner cards available. I wasnt able to find any information about the actual tuner technology on the cards, but they are fairly newly released cards, so I would assume the tuners are decent.

I suppose I could connect my antenna directly to my TV, and see if its able to tune WTTV-4... and compare that to the HVR-1250. I think I'll do that tonight and see what sort of results I get. I'll report back my findings.

Ciao
--Eric

Thanks for updating us on your Hauppauge HVR-1250. I've never advanced that far with any of their products. One of my early DTV tuners (pc tuner card) was the Hauppauge WinTV-D (model 697), from the stone age of DTV. This was one of their very early DTV models, but I still use it's snapshot feature to post TV pics. In fact, a TV/DTV DXer in Illinois used this model to receive, decode and capture a picture of WTHR-DT shortly after the station first signed on in Sept. 1998.

Did you try receiving WTTV-DT via your TV's digital tuner as opposed to your Hauppauge tuner? There could be a noticeable difference between the two, especially if one of them contains at least a fifth or sixth generation chip, especially if your issue with receiving WTTV-DT is related to multipath instead of lack of signal.

Steve

One of my early DTV tuners (pc tuner card) was the Hauppauge WinTV-D (model 697), from the stone age of DTV. This was one of their very early DTV models, but I still use it's snapshot feature to post TV pics. In fact, a TV/DTV DXer in Illinois used this model to receive, decode and capture a picture of WTHR-DT shortly after the station first signed on in Sept. 1998.

I just love my WinTV-Ds. Yes, I have multiple. The tuner is complete junk relative to modern tuners, but I just love the signal meter on the thing. I've seen nothing like it. I wish there was something as sensitive as the latest Samsung chip with that signal meter. I'd buy three of them tomorrow.

- Trip

Thanks for updating us on your Hauppauge HVR-1250. I've never advanced that far with any of their products. One of my early DTV tuners (pc tuner card) was the Hauppauge WinTV-D (model 697), from the stone age of DTV. This was one of their very early DTV models, but I still use it's snapshot feature to post TV pics. In fact, a TV/DTV DXer in Illinois used this model to receive, decode and capture a picture of WTHR-DT shortly after the station first signed on in Sept. 1998.

Did you try receiving WTTV-DT via your TV's digital tuner as opposed to your Hauppauge tuner? There could be a noticeable difference between the two, especially if one of them contains at least a fifth or sixth generation chip, especially if your issue with receiving WTTV-DT is related to multipath instead of lack of signal.

Steve

Steve: I finally just had a chance to give it a try. Here is my setup: My MythTV box has two of the HVR-1250's... I have one antenna, and a -3.5db two-way splitter that I use to get the signal into the two 1250's. For my test, I disconnected the second 1250 card and put that line into the TV, instead.

First, I re-scanned with MythTV. When it came up to channel 48, it reported "no tables" -- instead of "no signal", which is what the rest of the channels with nothing on them reported. So apparently it saw *something*, but not enough to do anything with?

Second, I scanned with my TV, which is a 26" Sanyo. It doesnt give me many details during the scan, but it also did not find 4.1 digital -- nor did it find channel 4, analog. The TV found all of the exact same channels that MythTV was able to find (sans the analog channels, because the HVR-1250's are digital tuners only).

I'll try again tonight, because I do seem to have better luck finding 4.1 after dark. My Myth box isnt scheduled to record anything until about 8 tonight, so I may play a bit this afternoon with adjusting of the antenna, to see if I have any better luck.

*shrugs*
Thx!
--Eric

Eric, I don't know what kind of antenna you're using, but that 3.5db loss from your two-way splitter can be enough to kill a weak signal. If you had two antennas stacked together, and they were phased correctly, the additional gain would be around 2.5-3.5db. So the loss from one splitter can be as much as one extra antenna. Take the splitter out of the coax line and run the antenna signal directly into ONE of your DTV receivers and test WTTV-DT. If that still doesn't work, try repositioning your antenna a little, as even a few inches (up, down, left, right) can make a big difference. If you've ever had a weak FM station on your car radio, and then you come up to a stoplight, and the station is fairly strong, but then you roll the car a few feet, and all at once the station is gone. Then you roll the car a few more feet and the weak station is back. The same can happen with TV signals, especially on UHF.

Another thing you might try if your scan does not locate WTTV-DT, simply add its RF channel number manually (channel 48) and then move the antenna around until the receiver decodes it. Some receivers will not allow you to do this manually, but I know my Hauppauge tuner card allows this. Plant the tuner on the true RF channel (48) and then watch the diagnostics screen for the best signal.

Since the WTTV-DT signal is coming from the south (Trafalgar), are you able to receive the other two stations next door to the WTTV tower? Those stations are WCLJ-DT 56 (42.1) and WIPX-DT 27 (63.1).

Steve

anyone having problems with WXIN fox hd on DirecTV? Terminator and dollhouse both recorded in standard def, and even today it's still not broadcasting in hd.

Since the WTTV-DT signal is coming from the south (Trafalgar), are you able to receive the other two stations next door to the WTTV tower? Those stations are WCLJ-DT 56 (42.1) and WIPX-DT 27 (63.1).

Steve: I should have mentioned a little bit more about my setup in my last e-mail. The splitter was only added recently, as I added a second HVR-1250 to my MythTV box. Before the splitter, I still was not able to reliably receive 4.1 -- so I did not figure it into the equation. However, I went ahead and just did a quick scan with the TV connected directly to the antenna, and no go. I have the antenna sitting as high as I can get it in this room, its on the top of a 6ft bookshelf.

My antenna is a cheap RCA antenna. We purchased a more expensive Philips amplified antenna to see if that would help, and frankly it didn't help at all. The roommate is using it in his room now... since it does get the local "big 4" just fine, and thats all he really cares about for "live" tv.

I've been playing around with antenna direction a bit. I had the antenna pointed towards the north/east, the direction of the majority of the Indy towers. With the antenna pointed in this direction, the two channels you mentioned as being 4.1's neighbors... 63.1 and 42.1... come in *perfectly* fine. In fact, I record "Boston Legal" on ION (63.1) a couple nights a week and have never seen an issue in those recordings.

I moved the antenna so it was facing north/south. With the antenna in this direction, I can scan 4.1. I just watched an episode of Monk on it -- and it did pixelate a couple of times, though not terrible. My roommate walked into my room... he's tall... and when he got near the antenna, 4.1 went uber-wonky, so I made him leave. Ha! :)

I did a quick test of the other stations, and they seem to be OK with my antenna in this direction -- except for WNDY 23.1, that does not come in at all now. Also if I recall in the past I tried this once before... and one of the "big 4" was an issue, I can't recall which, but I think it was 6.1. I will continue to test the rest of this evening, to see if any of the "big 4" are issues or not.

I don't mind purchasing a better antenna, if it'll help me get everything... as we attempted to do with the Philips. As with most things high tech, this all seems like "voodoo" at times. Heh! :) BTW Steve, your advice on here is most excellent... What a great resource for the community. So Thanks!

Thanks.....
--Eric

Anybody else seeing any problems with WRTV tonight (Saturday)? I just tuned in to watch the news and the OTA feed on my HTPC is glitchy (pixellation, audio stuttering, and outright pauses). Signal looks just the same on my Viewsonic TV's ATSC tuner.

Annoying.

:mad:

I am not get Nascar in HD on FOX 59. I have tried OTA and the cable box both 4x3 anyone else having this problem.

Thanks
Brad

I am not get Nascar in HD on FOX 59. I have tried OTA and the cable box both 4x3 anyone else having this problem.

Thanks
Brad

No HD here from Fox 59. Cops wasn't last night, Nascar isn't this afternoon.

No HD here from Fox 59. Cops wasn't last night, Nascar isn't this afternoon.

COPS was for me last night. NASCAR is not for me now.. Comcast in Fishers.

Directv NASCAR is not in HD either. I noticed something else yesterday wasn't. Not to be childish but I hope they get it fixed by the Simpsons tonight!!! I would hate to miss just their 2nd week in HD. Anyway, any news? Has anyone called the station?

nevermind...fixed now

Yep, fixed for me about the same time.

I've been playing around with antenna direction a bit. I had the antenna pointed towards the north/east, the direction of the majority of the Indy towers. With the antenna pointed in this direction, the two channels you mentioned as being 4.1's neighbors... 63.1 and 42.1... come in *perfectly* fine. In fact, I record "Boston Legal" on ION (63.1) a couple nights a week and have never seen an issue in those recordings.
--Eric

And from the extreme fringes on the west side of Indiana (9 miles north and slightly west of Terre Haute) I've been having fits trying to lock in 48.1

Not sure what has changed for me but the ION channels are coming in perfect 24/7. Use to get the CW pretty consistent but not anymore. I wouldn't know why but I wonder with WTWO and FOX increasing their power if this might have had some effect?

My wonky WRTV reception issues were still rearing their ugly heads on Sunday evening. Anybody experiencing anything similar with WRTV?

My wonky WRTV reception issues were still rearing their ugly heads on Sunday evening. Anybody experiencing anything similar with WRTV?

I'm watching Brothers & Sisters now, recorded on Sunday night (OTA), and it seems fine...

And from the extreme fringes on the west side of Indiana (9 miles north and slightly west of Terre Haute) I've been having fits trying to lock in 48.1

Not sure what has changed for me but the ION channels are coming in perfect 24/7. Use to get the CW pretty consistent but not anymore. I wouldn't know why but I wonder with WTWO and FOX increasing their power if this might have had some effect?


Well, an update to my tests from the weekend... I am watching an episode of Boston Legal from ION right now that was recorded earlier tonight, and there has been some signal issues. This is with the antenna aimed directly north/south... As I mentioned before, with the antenna aimed like this, I can get 4.1 (WTTV4). With the antenna aimed the way I used to aim it (more northeast/southwest)... ION was perfect, but I couldn't get WTTV at all. Also now, after skimming through days worth of sample recordings from WTTV4 (at various times of the day), it appears the signal isn't very stable, even pointed the way its pointed now. Sooooo... I'm gonna re-aim the antenna the way I had it before, and just say "ohwell" to 4.1 for now. I'd rather have a perfect ION/no WTTV over a blotchy ION/blotchy WTTV.

RWB: From north of TH, what all stations can you pick up? My parents live in the Riley area (a little south/west of Terre Haute) and my Dad has been thinking about picking up an antenna and seeing what he can get.

Thx
--Eric

RWB: From north of TH, what all stations can you pick up? My parents live in the Riley area (a little south/west of Terre Haute) and my Dad has been thinking about picking up an antenna and seeing what he can get.

Thx
--Eric

To put things in perspective I do live in the middle of a hill so I'm a little more elevated than some of the surrounding area. However I'm also surrounded by trees and more trees, oh did I mention there are trees....:D

9 miles north of THaute and 3 miles south of Clinton. I'm using a Channel Master 4228 with CM 7777 preamp (3 years old). Two different tuners in use a 3rd generation LG/Zenith and whatever is in the current Samsungs. The current Sammy does seem to lock onto things better than the older LG box.

From my location.....
All channels come in 24/7
24-1 (10 WTHI Terre Haute)
36-1 (2 WTWO Terre Haute)
39-1 (38 WFXW Terre Haute)
14-1 (PBS Bloomington IN)
41-1 (15 WCID/ABC Champaign IL) with the antenna in the right direction.
27-1 (63 ION Bloomington IN)

Not sure what happened but these channels USE to be consistent at least during the fall and CW4 was consistent every evening prior to the last couple of months.

56-1 (WCLJ) rare now.
48-1 (CW4 Bloomington) locked in for about an hour last night and then signal faded out.

And with any decent change in weather I get the Louisville KY stations usually once or twice a week in the evenings. From the west I can pick up stations out of Decatur Illinois this way also. Almost left out 50-1 from Charleston IL that pops in probably 70% of the time. But since this is a PBS station like Bloomington I don't look for it too often.

It is a catch 22 where I live because it seems I pick up some stations I probably shouldn't but by the same token being surrounded by trees it does limit what I could get when pointing my antenna toward Indy.

Back to the question Eric, with a decent outdoor antenna with preamp the parents may get several channels. Shoot if it wasn't for some of the sports channels I'd miss and of course the wife can't do without HGTV we'd can our cable service. Actually if prices keep rising we still might and with all the sub channels on OTA we'll still get on average 12 channels to pick from.

RWB, IIRC, it was around a year ago that WCIA-DT 48 (3.1), Champaign (CBS) went full-power @ 1000 kW with a non-directional antenna. While at the present time, WTTV-DT 48 (4.1) operates @ 870 kW with a directional antenna. I figured you are roughly 70 miles west of Trafalgar at approximately 285 degrees (azimuth reading). Estimating the field value of the WTTV-DT signal at around .640, this would mean the station is sending approx. 356 kW @ 1043' in your direction, and not the full 870 kW. Later this year, the station will be raising the antenna height to 1171', doing away with the directional antenna and raising its power to 1000 kW. This will send more signal in your direction, plus the added height should provide a little better line-of-sight reception in your direction.

Because you are just outside the approximate service coverage area of both WCIA-DT and WTTV-DT, the two stations could interfere with each other from time to time. Antenna aim is going to be quite important in your location. Here's the current service area (approx.) for WCIA-DT and the future service area (approx.) for WTTV-DT.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1069146.html
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1264867.html

Your reception of WTTV-DT should improve later this year.

Those in Indy who have been waiting for WTTK-DT to move its transmitter and antenna from Windfall to the WXIN tower in Indy (plus increase tower height and power), will have to wait a little longer now, thanks to the DTV delay to June 12. The new top-mounted antenna for WTTK-DT and WXIN-DT can't be installed until after WXIN-59 permanently signs off, and it doesn't appear that will happen until June 12.

Steve

Back to the question Eric, with a decent outdoor antenna with preamp the parents may get several channels. Shoot if it wasn't for some of the sports channels I'd miss and of course the wife can't do without HGTV we'd can our cable service. Actually if prices keep rising we still might and with all the sub channels on OTA we'll still get on average 12 channels to pick from.

Thanks for the report, RWB. Very informative. My parents dont watch that much tv anymore, and my Dad has been seriously considering giving OTA a go. I think they probably would, if Terre Haute had a stinkin' ABC affiliate. I think thats the only thing holding them back.

I live in Indy, and my roommate and I dropped cable and went OTA-only and online about a month ago, and so far so good. Don't really miss it -- and don't really miss sending Comcast a check for well over a hundred dollars every month, either.

:)
--Eric

Your reception of WTTV-DT should improve later this year.

Those in Indy who have been waiting for WTTK-DT to move its transmitter and antenna from Windfall to the WXIN tower in Indy (plus increase tower height and power), will have to wait a little longer now, thanks to the DTV delay to June 12. The new top-mounted antenna for WTTK-DT and WXIN-DT can't be installed until after WXIN-59 permanently signs off, and it doesn't appear that will happen until June 12.


Bah-humbug!

:-p
--Eric

Bah-humbug!

:-p
--Eric

I second that since my WTTV-DT reception is just horrible on the far NE side of Indy.

I second that since my WTTV-DT reception is just horrible on the far NE side of Indy.

Yeah, and now that "Reaper" is back, I'm double bah-humbug about it... My recording of "Reaper" on Tuesday night was better than my daytime WTTV-DT recordings... but still pretty crappy, overall.

Delay-schmalay!

:-p
--Eric

Thanks as usual to Steve for his knowledge on all things concerning Indiana HD/DT it helps a lot.

So you have to love OTA and the sub channels. Did anyone notice last night on the ION networks on 27-1 (63) the first channel was an infomercial about male enhancement and then of course 27-4 was the Worship channel. I'm sure one of these days there will be 27-5 the fat balding guy eating Cheatos channel or maybe 27-6 the husband and wife screaming at each other reality show.

As of last week, WISH-DT received approval to raise its power from 19.5 kW to 22.8 kW (post-transition). http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/eng_tv.pl?Application_id=1249877

Steve

Just watched this week's LOST episode last night -- recorded it via my ATSC receiver in my HTPC, enjoyed PERFECT reception (sound and audio) throughout the broadcast. Loving this OTA stuff when it works (much better than watching the SD broadcast recorded from the local feeds on my non-HD DISH DVR receiver).

So you have to love OTA and the sub channels. {snip} I'm sure one of these days there will be 27-5 the fat balding guy eating Cheatos channel or maybe 27-6 the husband and wife screaming at each other reality show.

So the difference with the average cable station is what, exactly? ;)

Does the Purdue vs Michigan State game on CBS/WISH look a little off to anyone else? Does this have anything to do with the weather? It just isn't as sharp as a usual CBS game broadcast. The lines on the court, especially while in motion, are not as crisp as usual for one thing.

Also, on WTHR I can see the 4x3 lines during the hockey game.

I live in Indy, and my roommate and I dropped cable and went OTA-only and online about a month ago, and so far so good. Don't really miss it -- and don't really miss sending Comcast a check for well over a hundred dollars every month, either.

:)
--Eric

Who would miss sending a big check to Comcast every month? Welcome to OTA, Eric. I'll be interested in reading more about your Hauppauge set up in the future. Don't be shy in posting here.

And I'll second your commendation of Steve Goldrich in this forum. I owe my successful (& now over 2-year old) OTA setup to his contributions and those of a handful of others.

All I'm missing now is 1) a DVR capability (I'm slowing moving toward Linux); and 2) a properly functioning EPG (electronic program guide required in part A65/C of the ATSC standard). See http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_65cr1_with_amend_1.pdf

I watch this EPG situation carefully and have noticed a lot of deterioration in stations' adherence to this valuable feature of the ATSC standard. WFYI is a laggard (and I recently complained about them to the FCC); WXIN in the past two days has only shown "WXIN DT Service Event (#X)" (this morning, their WSJ Report was "Event 23"); and WISH currently isn't showing *anything* in this (Sunday) evening's 7:00 PM slot. That' "60 Minutes"!!

Zap2It shows that "60 Minutes" in scheduled to air, but "60 Minutes" doesn't appear in the ATSC PSIP (EPG) info being broadcast by WISH. !!! This is in violation of FCC rules that require broadcasters to include EPG information in their signal.

Neither a blank entry (no "60 Minutes") nor an entry of "Event #X" doesn't strike me as rising to a good-faith effort to comply with the FCC's rule. The advancements offered by the ATSC standard are being undermined. And I believe that is by design and deliberate intent, aided and abetted by the TV manufacturers who now sell pricey HDTV sets which do not allow users to access this EPG information.

Personally, I think the manufacturers are in bed with the cable companies and have chosen to cripple their sets to deny their customers the ability to access the EPG information that's supposed to be in the ATSC signal. I believe they've conspired to needlessly nudge more people to cable, which of course provides its own EPG.

Curiously, I noticed at my local Sears a CNET review that praises one DTV transition converter box for providing an EPG. !!!! If this feature is good enough for a <$100 converter box, then why isn't it good enough for a $1,000+ HDTV with ATSC tuner? From a consumer's perspective, this doesn't make sense -- but it sure does from the perspective of the cable companies and the manufacturers.

Does the Purdue vs Michigan State game on CBS/WISH look a little off to anyone else? Does this have anything to do with the weather? It just isn't as sharp as a usual CBS game broadcast. The lines on the court, especially while in motion, are not as crisp as usual for one thing.

Also, on WTHR I can see the 4x3 lines during the hockey game.

I think all CBS Sports broadcasts on WISH have looked poor since football season, especially compared to last year. They used to be #1 in PQ by a wide margin. Now I'd say they are the worst on a regular basis.

T Heller, part of your EPG issue could be related to WISH-DT not observing DST, as their time is running one hour late (6 p.m. instead of 7 p.m.). I also noticed sister station WNDY-DT is running an hour behind. The other local stations appear to be operating with the correct DST except WXIN-DT is running around 18 minutes slow, which is quite rare for this station. My experience over the years has indicated that WXIN-DT and WTTV-DT are usually two of the most accurate with time.

As for the EPG info from WISH-DT, I just checked with three different receivers and I'm getting show titles on all three receivers but the times are one hour behind. I'm using two of the new CECB units, the Zenith DTT900 (displays a simple guide with titles only) and the Digital Stream DTX9900, and the older RCA ATSC11.

Meanwhile, WXIN-DT's EPG does appear to be messed up as I'm also seeing "WXIN HD Service, Event 25." WFYI-DT's (20.1) EPG is currently indicating "To The Contrary with Bonnie E" from 12:30 p.m. - 1:00 a.m. That doesn't appear to be correct. EPG for 20.2 is appearing but doesn't appear to be correct with the present program, while the EPG for 20.3 does appear to be correct.

Steve

Yeah, it's all messed up. DST *may* be a factor for WISH, but it sure doesn't explain WFYI's and WXIN's incorrect information. Maybe they're just 'dogging it' until the June transition, I don't know. But I have suspicions that this goes beyond mere inattention.

I've been taking digital photos of these occurrences. I've got quite a file thus far.

BTW - my ATSC tuner is a set-top Samsung H260F which has been a very good performer.

Forgive me if this is a newb question, but sometimes my OTA broadcasts come with very small (1" or so) blank areas on the top or bottom (sometimes both) running the width of the screen. They are black, and because they are pretty small I sometimes don't notice them until I've been watching a show for a while -- their size and color help them blend into the black bezel of my TV.

They are not a problem or distraction, but I'd like to know what's causing them. As I mentioned, these are only on OTA broadcasts, although I am running my antenna through my HR10-250 DirecTV receiver with TiVo. I no longer have my OTA hooked directly into my TV, so I can't tell you if this is TiVO-specific or not. My TV's native resolution is 1080p, and I have my TiVo set to output at 1080i. I've noticed this on local ABC, NBC, and CBS HD broadcasts, but different shows behave differently on each network, and some shows on each network are truly full-screen.

If it were only happening on 720p broadcasts, I'd wonder if it was an upconverting issue, but since it happens across networks it has me stumped. Anyone have any ideas?

Hey Nat, are you able to receive the Terre Haute digitals (WTHI-DT 24, WTWO-DT 36 and WFXW-DT 39? I believe WTWO-DT is currently at full power from a temporary antenna and WFXW-DT is still back at low power until an issue with their new antenna is corrected. Thanks.

Oh, and BTW, can you tell if WTWO-2 (analog) is off the air or at low power? Thanks.

Steve

Steve;

I finally turned my antenna towards Terre Haute.
analog 2 seems weak with lots of noise, not sure why.
analog 10 is oversaturated color wise and dark, but adequate.
analog 38 is the best of the three.
digital 2 is strongest, no pixels.
digital 10 has no pixels, with slightly less signal strength
I can not receive 38 digital at the moment. I hope you're right and it is not at full strength yet, because once in a while Fox sends different football games through 38.

Nat

FYI: DISH Network added three of the Indianapolis locals in HD to their service today. NBC and WB are missing.

Nat, thanks for checking on those stations. Your results are fairly close to what I thought they might be. And, apparently the antenna problem at WTWO/WFXW has not been corrected. Sounds like WTWO-DT is still operating at full power with a temporary antenna while WFXW-DT is still at low power with its STA setup.

Steve

I was wondering if anybody has heard when U-verse here in the Indy area would start carrying some of the digital sub-channels. Any information would be great. Thanks!

FYI: DISH Network added three of the Indianapolis locals in HD to their service today. NBC and WB are missing.
Any idea what the hold up is on NBC?

FYI - just 2 days ago I got on DishNetworks support site and was told via one of their chat operators that they had no idea when HD locals would be added to the Indy market.

Nat, thanks for checking on those stations. Your results are fairly close to what I thought they might be. And, apparently the antenna problem at WTWO/WFXW has not been corrected. Sounds like WTWO-DT is still operating at full power with a temporary antenna while WFXW-DT is still at low power with its STA setup.

Steve

You're welcome Steve. I just read the following on Wikipedia.......
"WFXW's low power digital signal went off the air December 3, 2008 at 9:00 a.m. to finish work on the digital transmitter. The station came back on the air later that same evening in full power digital with a much stronger signal."
I hope that information is not correct. According the FCC coverage maps, I should easily get WFXW's digital signal, with a strength equivalent to WTWO.

Any idea what the hold up is on NBC?

FYI - just 2 days ago I got on DishNetworks support site and was told via one of their chat operators that they had no idea when HD locals would be added to the Indy market.

Dish's owner probably doesn't want to pay WTHR one cent/year per subscriber (or whatever WTHR is demanding). He is a cheapskate and this type of behavior is typical.

Regarding the folks manning the Dish chat lines... absolutely in the dark about most things.

I was wondering if anybody has heard when U-verse here in the Indy area would start carrying some of the digital sub-channels. Any information would be great. Thanks!

I'm with U-verse in Indy. Not heard anything about it either. Honestly the only subchannel I watched was the local weather channels. The rest I didn't care about. I think U-verse does have one of the weather subchannels in the non-HD local channel stations in the Guide.

Forgive me if this is a newb question, but sometimes my OTA broadcasts come with very small (1" or so) blank areas on the top or bottom (sometimes both) running the width of the screen. They are black, and because they are pretty small I sometimes don't notice them until I've been watching a show for a while -- their size and color help them blend into the black bezel of my TV.

They are not a problem or distraction, but I'd like to know what's causing them. As I mentioned, these are only on OTA broadcasts, although I am running my antenna through my HR10-250 DirecTV receiver with TiVo. I no longer have my OTA hooked directly into my TV, so I can't tell you if this is TiVO-specific or not. My TV's native resolution is 1080p, and I have my TiVo set to output at 1080i. I've noticed this on local ABC, NBC, and CBS HD broadcasts, but different shows behave differently on each network, and some shows on each network are truly full-screen.

If it were only happening on 720p broadcasts, I'd wonder if it was an upconverting issue, but since it happens across networks it has me stumped. Anyone have any ideas?

My guess is that the black bars are due to the resolution that was used when recording the original content. So in the end we end up with black bars based on the cameras that were used to shoot a particular show.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/02/19/hd-101-why-there-are-black-bars-on-hdtvs/

Dish's owner probably doesn't want to pay WTHR one cent/year per subscriber (or whatever WTHR is demanding). He is a cheapskate and this type of behavior is typical.

Regarding the folks manning the Dish chat lines... absolutely in the dark about most things.You Nailed It!! Courtesy of Jeff from Indy:

Jeffrey,

This week Dish Network began providing local Indianapolis HD signals to their subscribers. For the last two years we have made numerous attempts to reach an agreement with Dish Network that would include the carriage of our HD signal on their system. Unfortunately, DISH has chosen not to accept that new agreement. WTHR has agreements with every other cable, satellite and telephone company provider for our HD signal. It’s unfortunate that DISH customers are shut out and cannot enjoy HD programming from the Indianapolis market leader as do customers of other providers.

Our agreement with Dish Network expires on August 30th of this year. We are confident any renewal we might reach with Dish Network will include carriage of our HD signal.

Is anyone having issues picking up WTHR OTA using either an HR20 or an HR2x with the AM21 unit ?

I noticed the Guide data was updated with 13-3 (apparently very recently as I have never noticed it before) and now I am unable to to tune to 13-1 - I am getting 771. However I am able to tune to the station using a PC tuner card and the tuner in my television so I am sure its not any issue with antenna setup. Also both receivers are showing 100% signal 'strength' on the setup screen. I have tried doing the initial setup and just a soft reboot - neither restored. The DirecTV LiL feed is functioning fine also and all other locals are fine with OTA.

Seems likely related to the sub-channel but I am not sure I understand how - possibly some tuning information is passed to the receivers and adding the extra subchannel wasn't accounted for ?

My guess is that the black bars are due to the resolution that was used when recording the original content. So in the end we end up with black bars based on the cameras that were used to shoot a particular show.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/02/19/hd-101-why-there-are-black-bars-on-hdtvs/

That was a great link. Thanks for sharing! It looks like some shows may be shot with a 1.85:1 aspect ratio, which displays with small black bars at the top and bottom. Overscan may crop off the top bar, bottom bar, or occasionally both. This likely explains why I might see a small black bar during a show that disappears during an HD commercial.

Not ideal, but I can live with it. (As if I have a choice...)

Is anyone having issues picking up WTHR OTA using either an HR20 or an HR2x with the AM21 unit ?

I noticed the Guide data was updated with 13-3 (apparently very recently as I have never noticed it before) and now I am unable to to tune to 13-1 - I am getting 771. However I am able to tune to the station using a PC tuner card and the tuner in my television so I am sure its not any issue with antenna setup. Also both receivers are showing 100% signal 'strength' on the setup screen. I have tried doing the initial setup and just a soft reboot - neither restored. The DirecTV LiL feed is functioning fine also and all other locals are fine with OTA.

Seems likely related to the sub-channel but I am not sure I understand how - possibly some tuning information is passed to the receivers and adding the extra subchannel wasn't accounted for ?

We have two TiVo Series 3 units that are hooked up to two different antennas. I woke up this morning to find that ER and the local late night news did not record on either unit. If I tune to WTHR it displays a black screen. Sounds to me as if they are experiencing issues. Hopefully my HR22 recorded ER via the DirecTV MPG-4 sat stream.


Update:

I sent in a comment to WTHR's engineering department via their website this morning. The HR22 MPG-4 stream was fine on DirecTV this morning & last night. The OTA signal of 13-1 will not come in on my two Series 3 TiVos, DirecTV HR20, or the DirecTV HR10-250. The only device that currently can tune 13-1 is my Channel Master CM-7000 (it is using the same antenna feed as 3 of the previously mentioned devices.)

... The OTA signal of 13-1 will not come in on my two Series 3 TiVos, DirecTV HR20, or the DirecTV HR10-250. The only device that currently can tune 13-1 is my Channel Master CM-7000 (it is using the same antenna feed as 3 of the previously mentioned devices.)

The issue is different than I thought. I looked at the guide data on the Series 3 TiVos, and it has two versions of 13-1 listed. The first 13-1 is "WTHRDT", and the second 13-1 is "WTHR-HD". If I tune to the "WTHRDT" channel the TiVo says that it is searching for a signal. The "WTHR-HD" version of 13-1 tunes in fine. The problem is that the default 13-1 is that "WTHRDT" channel, and all of the Season Passes set up on the TiVos for the last 2+ years use that channel for recording shows.

I wonder if WTHR made some sort of channel assignment change? Is the issue Tribune guide data changes? Assuming it is partly due to Tribune, why would it affect the DirecTV HR20?

WTWO-DT's newly-installed antenna malfunctioned on 1/24/09 due to an ice storm and as a result is operating at reduced power (247 kW instead of 1000 kW) with a temporary antenna (@ 833 ft.) until a new antenna can be delivered and installed. The FCC accepted this filing yesterday. http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101296815&formid=911&fac_num=20426

This also affects WFXW-DT because the new digital antenna on the WTWO tower was the full-power antenna for this station, too. According to the FCC filings, the full-power transmitter/antenna setup for WFXW-DT has been moved from the nearby WFXW tower to the WTWO tower. Here's the latest filing regarding WFXW-DT........
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101296820&formid=911&fac_num=65247

The new antenna had barely been used until this malfunction occurred. I wish them the best in getting this issue resolved soon.

Steve

WRTV-DT has received final approval to increase its power post-transition from 898 kW to 1000 kW (non-directional antenna) @ 965 feet.
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/eng_tv.pl?Application_id=1249471

And WDTI-DT 44 (69.1), Indy, has received final approval to increase its power post-transition from 28 kW (non-directional antenna) @ 961 feet to 1000 kW (directional antenna, with less signal to the south) @ 961 feet.
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/eng_tv.pl?Application_id=1250938

Steve

Dish's owner probably doesn't want to pay WTHR one cent/year per subscriber (or whatever WTHR is demanding). He is a cheapskate and this type of behavior is typical.

Regarding the folks manning the Dish chat lines... absolutely in the dark about most things.

Sometime in January, an ice storm damaged WFXW and WTWO's digital transmitter. A temp. full transmitter is up for WTWO and VERY low power output for WFXW is operating. I am 11 miles from the towers and WFXW is horrid during high winds, but non-pixellating and at 49% on my ATSC otherwise. WTWO is around 87-95%.

We have two TiVo Series 3 units that are hooked up to two different antennas. I woke up this morning to find that ER and the local late night news did not record on either unit. If I tune to WTHR it displays a black screen. Sounds to me as if they are experiencing issues. Hopefully my HR22 recorded ER via the DirecTV MPG-4 sat stream.


Update:

I sent in a comment to WTHR's engineering department via their website this morning. The HR22 MPG-4 stream was fine on DirecTV this morning & last night. The OTA signal of 13-1 will not come in on my two Series 3 TiVos, DirecTV HR20, or the DirecTV HR10-250. The only device that currently can tune 13-1 is my Channel Master CM-7000 (it is using the same antenna feed as 3 of the previously mentioned devices.)

I just checked my Tivo and this appears to be a Tribune guide data problem. I do not watch WTHR OTA so this does not affect me. I have cable. However, I do watch WIPB Muncie OTA and they had previously had this same problem.

Tribune has updated the frequency for WTHR to their post-transistion assignment on Channel 13. Unfortunately, they are still broadcasting on their pre-transition assignment onf Channel 46. I assume that this could affect a Direct TV receiver as well if they use Tribune data. You can check this info by looking at the Tivo Channel List under Messages and settings. It will list the virtual AND physical channels that it thinks are being used.

I had this problem with WIPB Muncie on DT 52. When they signed off analog 49 on Feb 17, Tribune moved their DTV assignment to their post transistion channel on 23. Of course, they can't move to 23 until WNDY signs off analog. To get this fixed, call Tivo. I called them regarding WIPB to report the incorrect frequency and they had it fixed four days later.

There are lots of reports of these problems in the Tivo Community Forum. I believe that until the frequency gets updated, you will have to schedule manual recordings on the Tivo that point to the "correct" WTHR (which has no guide data).

I contacted Tivo support this morning regarding the incorrect frequency for WTHR-HD. The support agent (who was excellent, I might add) said he had had other calls regarding this issue with WTHR, but he went ahead and submitted mine as well. Apparently the more calls they get, the faster Tribune resolves the issue.

It's Tribune. Call TiVO and inform them. I've had the same problems with 40 and 49 and now 13. I've called in each instance and around a week later they get it fixed. Sad part is that we'll have to go through this again in June thanks to our ever-concerning government.


:mad:

Problem fixed yesterday (Friday Mar 13). Complaint (& digital photos) to FCC may have been the trick.

We'll see how long this lasts, as I'm deeply suspicious ATSC's PSIP EPG via OTA is deliberately being crippled by the TV manufacturers and cable carriers.

Currently no OTA signal on WISH-DT 8.1 (or 8.2 or 8.3) with either my CM-7000 or Sony HDTV. I've always had good signal before. Anybody else experiencing this? I note that Brighthouse is still getting WISH in HD. OTA transmitter problem?

WISH-TV and DT are currently off the air. Not sure why.

Interesting to see what I'm getting outside the area with these two open channels. WCPO-9, Cincinnati, a little of WNIN-9, Evansville, a hint of WILL-DT 9, Champaign, and I'm trying to get enough signal for WLIO-DT 8, Lima, OH to decode. And because I'm so close to the antenna farm, now I'm getting a good signal from WTHI-10, Terre Haute.

Steve

Question for you TiVo users. Do any of you have the USB tuning adapter from Brighthouse or Comcast? Over a tivocommunity forums they seem to be showing up around the country but haven't seen any posts from the Indy area regarding it yet. Just checking. I'm currently a Directv customer but have an idle TiVo series 3 waiting to be fired up again once it can tune all the switched HD stations.

WISH-TV 8 and WISH-DT 9 back on the air (OTA) @ 10:57 a.m.

WISH-TV 8 and WISH-DT 9 back on the air (OTA) @ 10:57 a.m.

Must not be at full power. My Comcast Anderson/New Castle HD feed is heavily pixilated at 12:30 pm. It really is unwatchable. This includes their LWS signal as well. However, thier SD feed is perfect.

Question for you TiVo users. Do any of you have the USB tuning adapter from Brighthouse or Comcast? Over a tivocommunity forums they seem to be showing up around the country but haven't seen any posts from the Indy area regarding it yet. Just checking. I'm currently a Directv customer but have an idle TiVo series 3 waiting to be fired up again once it can tune all the switched HD stations.

The last time I asked a Comcast Indy engineering friend of mine, they weren't using SDV in this area. He didn't seem to know of any plans to use SDV either. Of course, things could have changed since then.

NCAA men's basketball on CBS/WISHTV looks bad again today.

NCAA men's basketball on CBS/WISHTV looks bad again today.

Yeah, looks terrible. I wish the games were on ESPN or Big Ten instead.

Yeah, looks terrible. I wish the games were on ESPN or Big Ten instead.
Maybe Tom can shed some light...

Maybe Tom can shed some light...

This Tom sez his OTA picture is perfect. (Well, maybe not the camera behind the backboard -- seems to blur & jiggle when the ball bounces off the rim. Is this normal?) I can count the stripes on the US flags on the players' jerseys.

I can't say why your subscription picture isn't to your liking....maybe you should call your provider.

This Tom sez his OTA picture is perfect. (Well, maybe not the camera behind the backboard -- seems to blur & jiggle when the ball bounces off the rim. Is this normal?) I can count the stripes on the US flags on the players' jerseys.

I can't say why your subscription picture isn't to your liking....maybe you should call your provider.
I have the same issues both OTA and via Comcast. It's a problem with the local provider. The pictures is much, much worse as soon as there is motion. Everything, including graphics, is affected.

There is nothing at all perfect about what we are seeing. If you have cable or sat...just flip over to the game on ESPN. Then you'll see just how bad the CBS game looks.

I was watching OTA and on the Dish feed. Both looked the same.

Also, there's been a long-standing problem on WISH during primetime shows that I wonder if anyone has noticed. It seems to happen on scene transitions, such as when the entire field needs to repainted. Sometimes the screen fills with a bunch of little checkered spots for a brief flash - about 1/32 or 1/64 of a second. I've noticed it for months, but since we're talking about WISH PQ problems here I thought I'd mention it.

I'm watching OTA, by the way, but I also see it on the Dish feed. I don't see it during the CBS Evening News or the WISH local news (which I usually watch). I also don't see it on CBS sports broadcasts. Just primetime shows.

Yes, I have seen it as well. On scene transitions.

I finally read an explanation somewhere. It has to do with the cut being in the middle of a GOP. I think I read that some encoder systems actually start a new GOP on a cut like that to prevent the problem we are seeing.

I don't remember where I was reading about it, but it would have either been on AVSForum or TivoCommunity Forum.

The pictures is much, much worse as soon as there is motion. Everything, including graphics, is affected.
I'm noticing the blurred picture and pixelation on motion during the Big 10 game, but it didn't seem to be as noticable during the SEC game that was on earlier. Could it be a problem in the truck at Conseco or in their data connection to CBS? Also, if I switch from OTA to Brighthouse, I don't notice the problem as much.

I'm noticing the blurred picture and pixelation on motion during the Big 10 game, but it didn't seem to be as noticable during the SEC game that was on earlier. Could it be a problem in the truck at Conseco or in their data connection to CBS? Also, if I switch from OTA to Brighthouse, I don't notice the problem as much.

My OTA picture of Purdue-OSU is barely of high definition quality, at least according to my old tired eyes.
Any motion at all results in a blurred picture.
Not very good at all.

My OTA picture of Purdue-OSU is barely of high definition quality, at least according to my old tired eyes.
Any motion at all results in a blurred picture.
Not very good at all.
If this is a local issue, and I believe it is, I hope they can fix it before Thursday. Tom Weber hasn't been here lately and maybe that is an indication that something really is wrong.

I contacted Tivo support this morning regarding the incorrect frequency for WTHR-HD. The support agent (who was excellent, I might add) said he had had other calls regarding this issue with WTHR, but he went ahead and submitted mine as well. Apparently the more calls they get, the faster Tribune resolves the issue.

As of this morning all of my devices are correctly using frequency 46 for WTHR. It is my understanding that Tribune had incorrectly changed WTHR to use frequency 13, and this change was causing the issue with HD TiVos and DirecTV DVRs that have the ability to tune OTA channels.

Am a complete newbie to this forum of AVS -- should I go elsewhere or am I likely to find good recommendations for inside / outside antennas?
Am located in Greenwood IN, due south of Indy along IN-135 only about a mile into Johnson County. Get some Indy and some Trafalger OTA just using a wire dangling out the DTV tuner box coax. Bought the Apex DT250 box at BB since it had S-video out and my old analog TV has S-video in. Has "smart antenna" conection but these seem to no longer be marketed?
Thanks in advance,
Warren


Thanks for any helpful info.
Warren

Warren, you might try antennaweb.org, in addition to the advice you'll get here.

Jeff

An FYI to Dish Network subs. WTTV-HD will be up by 5:00 this afternoon.

Am located in Greenwood IN, due south of Indy along IN-135 only about a mile into Johnson County. Get some Indy and some Trafalger OTA just using a wire dangling out the DTV tuner box coax. Bought the Apex DT250 box at BB since it had S-video out and my old analog TV has S-video in. Has "smart antenna" connection but these seem to no longer be marketed?

I don't know what "smart antenna" means - I'd suspect it's some proprietary interface. (BTW: that converter box has some really lousy reviews at Amazon. You may want to return it immediately and find a better box. CNET I think has some reviews - at least I've read one for a box Sears sells.

Any tuner/converter with a coax in will be well-served by most any antenna, even though it may not offer the omni-directional (360 degree), automatic gain-control feature the "smart antenna" claimed. I suspect your tuner/converter box must have some gain-control function; there's no need to replicate features.

I'd suggest a visit to Radio Shack (they offer liberal return priviledges) to peruse their selection of antennas and converter boxes.

I doubt you would need a big antenna, nor should you need an amplifier like I do in Columbus to receive the Indy stations. Indeed, I'd first try to see if an indoor antenna like the Zenith Silver Sensor could work. It looks like a stack of boomerangs, but is rather compact and has received good reviews. (Seems that Phillips now markets it.) If your wife objects to its aesthetics, keep in mind that it need not sit on top of your set. This 'boomerang style' also comes in an amplified version. I remember Circuit City having one or two.

A good source of antenna information is Warren Electronics in Moline. 1-800-397-5301, and I believe they've got a web site. Sorry, it's been a few years since I set up my OTA system, but they were knowledgeable, friendly and responsive. Antennaweb is also a helpful place to start understanding what your location may require.

If you go with an outside antenna, you could utilize two antennas (as I do), one for VHF channels 6, 8 and 13 and one for all the others which are located in the UHF band. You could point the UHF antenna toward Trafalgar and the VHF toward NW Indy and I'd bet you'd be happy with the result. (Although to be frank, the Trafalgar stations are of very marginal value to me. I don't go for the religious programming.)

Despite being pointed to Trafalgar to the south, the UHF antenna could do quite well pulling in stations to the north (or vice versa), due to its design.

I have a Winegard 1713 (VHF) mated with a Channel Master 4228 (UHF) running through an amplifier Channel Master 7777, but I'm 50 miles from the Indy antennas. It has worked exceptionally well for about two and a half years.

Good luck -- and keep the cable co wolves away from your door.

NBC WTHR 13.1 and 13.2 should be back to normal on TiVo, DirecTV, and WMC boxes that use program information from Tribune. Thanks to those who reported this problem and got it fixed.

If your TiVo doesn't yet have the correct mapping information for those channels, and you don't want to wait until the nightly guide download, you can force a connection now under Settings -> Phone & Network.

Also, there's been a long-standing problem on WISH during primetime shows that I wonder if anyone has noticed. It seems to happen on scene transitions, such as when the entire field needs to repainted. Sometimes the screen fills with a bunch of little checkered spots for a brief flash - about 1/32 or 1/64 of a second. I've noticed it for months, but since we're talking about WISH PQ problems here I thought I'd mention it.

I'm watching OTA, by the way, but I also see it on the Dish feed. I don't see it during the CBS Evening News or the WISH local news (which I usually watch). I also don't see it on CBS sports broadcasts. Just primetime shows.

I live in New Castle, so I can watch Indianapolis, Dayton and Cinncinnati OTA stations. I watched NCIS and Mentalist Tuesday night from WHIO Ch.7 Dayton,Ohio. I did not see one case of checkered spots or brief flashes. When I watched Without a Trace from Indy, I only saw one case of checkered spots. That was during the opening credits.

Has WISH got this problem almost solved?

Duane123

I was watching OTA and on the Dish feed. Both looked the same.

Also, there's been a long-standing problem on WISH during primetime shows that I wonder if anyone has noticed. It seems to happen on scene transitions, such as when the entire field needs to repainted. Sometimes the screen fills with a bunch of little checkered spots for a brief flash - about 1/32 or 1/64 of a second. I've noticed it for months, but since we're talking about WISH PQ problems here I thought I'd mention it.

I'm watching OTA, by the way, but I also see it on the Dish feed. I don't see it during the CBS Evening News or the WISH local news (which I usually watch). I also don't see it on CBS sports broadcasts. Just primetime shows.

I think I've seen what you are saying, I thought it was my TiVo acting up...perhaps not, I hope. I can't, for sure, say it was on WISH...I'll have to keep the channel in mind the next time I see the dots.

Thanks,

I'm heading home to see if the NCAA games look like crap on WISH again...I sure hope not.

Hey, folks. Just getting back into the swing of things. Off on some vacation, then in Chicago for a funeral (age 94, so not unexpected), and then helping WLFI get back on in HD in time for the Purdue game.

Things look acceptable OTA here in my office, but haven't had the time to really sit and WATCH for 5 minutes.

Tom Weber
WISH Engineering

Hey, folks. Just getting back into the swing of things. Off on some vacation, then in Chicago for a funeral (age 94, so not unexpected), and then helping WLFI get back on in HD in time for the Purdue game.

Things look acceptable OTA here in my office, but haven't had the time to really sit and WATCH for 5 minutes.

Tom Weber
WISH Engineering
Alright then, I won't pass judgement until I get home. Did you happen to notice the quality during the Big Ten tourney?

No, I was AT the tourney, at Conseco, but not doing TV stuff. Looked PERFECT to me, but then again, it was in person <g>.

Tom

The Michigan-Clemson game looks decent on the Dish Network feed (although the arena is dark, but nothing anyone can do about that!).

Welcome back Tom...

The Michigan-Clemson game looks decent on the Dish Network feed (although the arena is dark, but nothing anyone can do about that!).

Welcome back Tom...
I would say decent as well. Not great by any stretch, but not as bad as before. Still some issue during pans, but not as bad.

I think there is this a big misconception among new HDTV folks about quality. It is what it is. I bought into Blu-ray. And it is what it is...and I sold it. It's not worth it, considering the wait lists on Netflix or the price to buy. My up converter Sony shows practically the same image. Had to get that off my chest.

I think there is this a big misconception among new HDTV folks about quality. It is what it is. I bought into Blu-ray. And it is what it is...and I sold it. It's not worth it, considering the wait lists on Netflix or the price to buy. My up converter Sony shows practically the same image. Had to get that off my chest.
You must have been watching Gangs of New York or something. The PQ and AQ improvement of HD media (blu-ray in particular) is significant. The DVD vs BD comparisions are hardly even a contest. Also, I have 20 discs in my Netflix waiting list and none of them are on a wait. The price per disc is on par with DVD when you find the best price. Even the more expensive titles only cost slightly more. I have 40+ titles and I purchased many of them for $20 or less. Some were in the $25-$28 range.

Yes, it is what it is. Maybe something was setup incorrectly with either your display or the BD player.

Casino Royale DVD
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5748/casinodvd8.jpg
Casino Royale Blu-ray
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7629/casinobluray8.jpg

300 DVD
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/213/300dvd16.jpg
300 Blu-ray
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/1111/300hd16.jpg

I'm heading home to see if the NCAA games look like crap on WISH again...I sure hope not.

Fortunately Dish now delivers WISH in HD as the OTA signal is terrible tonight for me. I seldom have problems with the WISH signal, but it is certainly compromised this evening. I hope this is not part of the pattern reported recently by others about various problems experienced with WISH HD as of late.

Fortunately Dish now delivers WISH in HD as the OTA signal is terrible tonight for me. I seldom have problems with the WISH signal, but it is certainly compromised this evening. I hope this is not part of the pattern reported recently by others about various problems experienced with WISH HD as of late.

I watched OTA for a while last night. While I had no reception problems, I was very disappointed with the picture quality during the prime time games -- the pic seemed grainy (even obvious with the on-screen graphics), and I thought some of the commercials looked better.

I'm not sure if my eyes adjusted to the picture or if their compression lessened as the number of simultaneous games decreased, but the late games looked a bit better to me.

I watched OTA for a while last night. While I had no reception problems, I was very disappointed with the picture quality during the prime time games -- the pic seemed grainy (even obvious with the on-screen graphics), and I thought some of the commercials looked better.

I'm not sure if my eyes adjusted to the picture or if their compression lessened as the number of simultaneous games decreased, but the late games looked a bit better to me.
I saw the same problems here. I don't see a lot of folks from other areas complaining and that leads me to believe that it is a local issue.

I watched OTA for a while last night. While I had no reception problems, I was very disappointed with the picture quality during the prime time games


Might this relate to the number of HD cameras CBS has available to cover 8 locations for the first round of the NCAA playoffs? Are you assuming that *all* these games would be in full HD?

Might this relate to the number of HD cameras CBS has available to cover 8 locations for the first round of the NCAA playoffs? Are you assuming that *all* these games would be in full HD?They are all in full 1080i. I believe this is the first year that ever single game has been available in HD. Regardless, other markets don't appear to be having these same problems.

I saw the same problems here. I don't see a lot of folks from other areas complaining and that leads me to believe that it is a local issue.

I was flipping between the Dish HD feed and OTA, and I really think the Dish feed looked better last night than OTA. I'm not sure how that's possible, but the compression artifacts were much more noticeable to me OTA.

Could it be because Dish gets a direct fiber connection from the studio that isn't degraded by subchannels? Just grasping for an explanation really, but I was really surprised.

Jeff

I was flipping between the Dish HD feed and OTA, and I really think the Dish feed looked better last night than OTA. I'm not sure how that's possible, but the compression artifacts were much more noticeable to me OTA.

Could it be because Dish gets a direct fiber connection from the studio that isn't degraded by subchannels? Just grasping for an explanation really, but I was really surprised.

Jeff
I'm not sure about that. I have Comcast and it looked just as bad as the OTA signal. I've been looking forward to the tourney and it's a shame that PQ is a bit off.

I'm not sure about that. I have Comcast and it looked just as bad as the OTA signal. I've been looking forward to the tourney and it's a shame that PQ is a bit off.

Well, I wouldn't swear that it was better. It just seemed better at the time, especially watching the gym floor as the cameras panned back and forth.

Well, I wouldn't swear that it was better. It just seemed better at the time, especially watching the gym floor as the cameras panned back and forth.
That's one of two major issues I notice. The other would when a close up of a dark area, a coach's dark suit, or player's dark uniform.

A friend in Kokomo is going to observe today's NCAA games via four different CBS stations and then provide his feedback, which I'll forward to this site. He'll be checking WISH-DT against feeds from WLFI-DT (if its HD is back, as I noticed it might be down), Lafayette, WSBT-DT, South Bend, and WANE-DT, Fort Wayne. He will be watching these stations using a new Samsung 40" LCD via an OTA signal.

If any other viewers are in areas where you can receive more than one CBS station, it might be helpful to see if there are differences between CBS affiliate stations, or whether this is a CBS issue.

For yesterday's games, I was watching via a smaller screen (37") than I normally watch (60") and I thought the PQ looked fairly good, not fabulous but not that bad.

Steve

When we were doing, a few years ago, 3 games in a multicast, (all in SD, by the way), we were accomplishing that via a technique called statistical multiplexing (or statmux for short). In that process, streams that need more bits rob them from streams that don't need as many. This process is most effective when the streams in any one multiplex have different types or styles of content. It is far less effective when doing several streams of the same type thing, especially when the various streams are all quite demanding. Even then, however, if one game had a fairly static shot of a player at the foul line, then it could give up some bits to a game that had a fast break in progress.

None of this is an issue any more, however. CBS is sending 2 or 3 games per transponder, and I'm not aware that they are doing any statmuxing on their feeds to affiliates. We are not doing any statmuxing these days.

If someone is seeing noise even in graphics, there's got to be something else going on.

Also, Dish and DirecTV both receive us over-the-air, so there ought to be little difference. BrightHouse and AT&T U-verse both have direct studio feeds, but this is after encoding, so there's no difference in the data rate from over-the-air.

Tom Weber
WISH Engineering

When we were doing, a few years ago, 3 games in a multicast, (all in SD, by the way), we were accomplishing that via a technique called statistical multiplexing (or statmux for short). In that process, streams that need more bits rob them from streams that don't need as many. This process is most effective when the streams in any one multiplex have different types or styles of content. It is far less effective when doing several streams of the same type thing, especially when the various streams are all quite demanding. Even then, however, if one game had a fairly static shot of a player at the foul line, then it could give up some bits to a game that had a fast break in progress.

None of this is an issue any more, however. CBS is sending 2 or 3 games per transponder, and I'm not aware that they are doing any statmuxing on their feeds to affiliates. We are not doing any statmuxing these days.

If someone is seeing noise even in graphics, there's got to be something else going on.

Also, Dish and DirecTV both receive us over-the-air, so there ought to be little difference. BrightHouse and AT&T U-verse both have direct studio feeds, but this is after encoding, so there's no difference in the data rate from over-the-air.

Tom Weber
WISH Engineering
Well then I'm at a loss. There is a definite quality issue here. I have now noticed it on three different displays. (1 DLP, 1 LCD, and 1 Plasma) It's better with some games rather than others, but it can be a real mess while in motion.

After looking and comparing more closely, I am seeing some interlace artifacts, and I am seeing some encoding artifacts, even in the graphics, that some might interpret as noise.

I'm curious what types of native display modes people are watching. I'm seeing the interlace artifacts on displays that I believe is 720p native, for instance. I'll have to see if we have any 1080p native displays in the building. Those have tended to be the larger sets until very recently. Our larger sets are all older, so are still the 720p native type.

Tom Weber
WISH Engineering

After looking and comparing more closely, I am seeing some interlace artifacts, and I am seeing some encoding artifacts, even in the graphics, that some might interpret as noise.

I'm curious what types of native display modes people are watching. I'm seeing the interlace artifacts on displays that I believe is 720p native, for instance. I'll have to see if we have any 1080p native displays in the building. Those have tended to be the larger sets until very recently. Our larger sets are all older, so are still the 720p native type.

Tom Weber
WISH Engineering
Thank you Tom. That is exactly what I am seeing. I'm viewing on a 720p LCD at work and a 1080p DLP at home.

Well then I'm at a loss. There is a definite quality issue here.

I'm all for the discussion of HDTV, picture quality, and so on, but it gets old to hear people like jcorwin play armchair broadcast engineer and say stuff on a regular basis such as "There is a definite quality issue here." I, for one, think that the NCAA coverage on WISH the last two days has looked great, so at least in my opinion, I think it's more in the eye of the beholder and more a matter of opinion.

It seems like some people are under the impression that CBS and WISH are constantly tinkering with equipment, encoding settings and whatnot, and consequently messing with the picture quality, but I seriously doubt that's the case. There are many variables that contribute to each individual HD production...different cameras, different camera ops, different people shading cameras, different production trucks, etc...so granted, every production might not look exactly identical. Still, there's no question that CBS strives for consistency and does their best to make every production look as good as the others, and I can't say that I've noticed a huge difference from one show to the next.

I'm all for the discussion of HDTV, picture quality, and so on, but it gets old to hear people like jcorwin play armchair broadcast engineer and say stuff on a regular basis such as "There is a definite quality issue here." I, for one, think that the NCAA coverage on WISH the last two days has looked great, so at least in my opinion, I think it's more in the eye of the beholder and more a matter of opinion.

It seems like some people are under the impression that CBS and WISH are constantly tinkering with equipment, encoding settings and whatnot, and consequently messing with the picture quality, but I seriously doubt that's the case. There are many variables that contribute to each individual HD production...different cameras, different camera ops, different people shading cameras, different production trucks, etc...so granted, every production might not look exactly identical. Still, there's no question that CBS strives for consistency and does their best to make every production look as good as the others, and I can't say that I've noticed a huge difference from one show to the next.
Why exactly do you think we are here? :confused:

I'm not the only person who noticed that something seems to be a bit off with recent NCAA men's basketball games on our local CBS affiliate. I've mentioned that I notice it, I've asked if others are noticing it, and I've asked the actual engineer if he is noticing it. What's wrong with that?

I don't believe that tinkering is to blame, but equipment does fail or malfunction at times. Something rather minor and simple along the chain of delivery could be causing this.

I'm happy that you think the games look great. I really am. Maybe you're seeing something different than I am. A few of us are seeing what looks like a problem of some sorts. I respect your being here to express your opinion.

...just to sum this all up. I'm not trying to start anything with you. I just think that is type of discussion belongs here. I'm not trying to act like the engineer here. I've been looking for feedback from Tom (the actual engineer) about this and he has been helpful.

In my opinion, CBS HD quality across the board has slipped since the first of the year.

Actually, the Chief Engineer and I just went upstairs and looked at 3 different manufacturer's sets, and they're all different from the ones down in the basement office where I hang my hat. My basement sets are all older, and use and internal or external version of a 2nd generation tuner (for an age reference).

The upstairs sets are all also 720p, but they are all different from each other in the nature of the video processing that they do. They all look better than the basement displays, but for instance, of the 2 sets in the Chief's office, one has much better looking vertical transitions, the other looks better on horizontal transitions. Neither has the really jaggy-looking 3-point lines when looking at the half-court perspective, that we saw downstairs on the older sets.

Bear in mind, that he and I were discerning this 18 inches away from a 24-inch display - NOT normal viewing distance. From his office chair, both displays looked quite good, and differences were darned few.

Clearly newer sets have more sophisticated processing.

Tom Weber
WISH Engineering

Also, Dish and DirecTV both receive us over-the-air, so there ought to be little difference.It probably helps that Dish and DirecTV are using receivers that are in the $1000 plus range and are installed by professionals for a company that monitors their signals for quality 24/7. Not many consumers going to that expense.

I'd look toward the antenna first (as a consumer) ... making sure that I'm getting the most signal possible and nothing is out of whack there. Then I'd see if the problem could be traced to a particular tuner or TV setup.

Actually, the Chief Engineer and I just went upstairs and looked at 3 different manufacturer's sets, and they're all different from the ones down in the basement office where I hang my hat. My basement sets are all older, and use and internal or external version of a 2nd generation tuner (for an age reference).

The upstairs sets are all also 720p, but they are all different from each other in the nature of the video processing that they do. They all look better than the basement displays, but for instance, of the 2 sets in the Chief's office, one has much better looking vertical transitions, the other looks better on horizontal transitions. Neither has the really jaggy-looking 3-point lines when looking at the half-court perspective, that we saw downstairs on the older sets.

Bear in mind, that he and I were discerning this 18 inches away from a 24-inch display - NOT normal viewing distance. From his office chair, both displays looked quite good, and differences were darned few.

Clearly newer sets have more sophisticated processing.

Tom Weber
WISH EngineeringStrange. So, the newer displays aren't showing the same problems as the older ones. Both of mine are new and I'm seeing it. Oh well. I'm not sure what is going on at this point. Thank you for checking.

I am not an engineer, nor do I have any idea how all of this stuff works.
But the picture from the Minnesota NCAA site was quite a bit better than what I saw a few nights ago, and the picture from theXavier-Portland State game is even better then the Minnesota site....
I'm beginning to wonder if cameras and quality of arena lighting aren't the big variables in this very complex equation.

A friend in Kokomo is going to observe today's NCAA games via four different CBS stations and then provide his feedback, which I'll forward to this site. He'll be checking WISH-DT against feeds from WLFI-DT (if its HD is back, as I noticed it might be down), Lafayette, WSBT-DT, South Bend, and WANE-DT, Fort Wayne. He will be watching these stations using a new Samsung 40" LCD via an OTA signal.

If any other viewers are in areas where you can receive more than one CBS station, it might be helpful to see if there are differences between CBS affiliate stations, or whether this is a CBS issue.

For yesterday's games, I was watching via a smaller screen (37") than I normally watch (60") and I thought the PQ looked fairly good, not fabulous but not that bad.

Steve

Here's his review along with some comments after watching and comparing all four CBS stations.............


"This may not be helpful, but my eye surely does not see what the guys you mentioned seem to see.

WLFI consistently had slightly less contrast than WISH with deeper blacks and sharper whites. In general, the over-all picture was sharper from WISH. That was generally equal to Ft. Wayne and South Bend.

If I get up to about 10 inches from the screen and on a fast moving camera following players, the floor boards lose some detail during the fast move. That happened on all stations equally.

Over-all, I cannot see any appreciable difference between the different station sources.

Are these guys in agreement on exactly WHAT they see or don't see?

Also are they all using the same TV as in 120 Hz for example or the same size screen or 1080 vs. 720 P?

I can understand that on a 60+ inch screen, the detail would appear different at 8 feet from the screen vs. on a 32 inch screen at 8 feet from the screen.

I watched several different times and could see no difference on the same program material with the games in progress."


I've been comparing WISH-DT to WLFI-DT (OTA) and my review would virtually mirror that of my friend's. Today I've been watching on my 3 year-old 1080p 60-inch display (Sony SXRD). I would agree with Tom Weber's comments in his last post this afternoon combined with my friend's comments. There are differences between display units, game venues, transmission lines, etc. Viewing experiences may vary.

Steve

Here's his review along with some comments after watching and comparing all four CBS stations.............


"This may not be helpful, but my eye surely does not see what the guys you mentioned seem to see.

WLFI consistently had slightly less contrast than WISH with deeper blacks and sharper whites. In general, the over-all picture was sharper from WISH. That was generally equal to Ft. Wayne and South Bend.

If I get up to about 10 inches from the screen and on a fast moving camera following players, the floor boards lose some detail during the fast move. That happened on all stations equally.

Over-all, I cannot see any appreciable difference between the different station sources.

Are these guys in agreement on exactly WHAT they see or don't see?

Also are they all using the same TV as in 120 Hz for example or the same size screen or 1080 vs. 720 P?

I can understand that on a 60+ inch screen, the detail would appear different at 8 feet from the screen vs. on a 32 inch screen at 8 feet from the screen.

I watched several different times and could see no difference on the same program material with the games in progress."


I've been comparing WISH-DT to WLFI-DT (OTA) and my review would virtually mirror that of my friend's. Today I've been watching on my 3 year-old 1080p 60-inch display (Sony SXRD). I would agree with Tom Weber's comments in his last post this afternoon combined with my friend's comments. There are differences between display units, game venues, transmission lines, etc. Viewing experiences may vary.

Steve
Thank you for the report. Much appreciated.

For those of you who are Comcast customers in areas that used to be served by Insight...we now have HD On Demand.

Much appreciated.
On the other hand, not much appreciated is the practice of quoting an entire message in a reply. Especially when that reply is just two short sentences. It wastes space on the page and wastes space in the forum database.

This is a mesage board, folks. The message to which you are replying is often just a few messages above your reply. A reader can easily scroll back and read the entire message, if they choose. If you must quote, pick out just a few pertinent items that set the stage for your reply. Quoting the entire message is just lazy, in my opinion.

I am not a moderator here. Just another forum participant.

I didn't watch much basketball this week, but I did watch a few games last weekend. The Big 10 tourney broadcast looked a bit worse to me than the other games WISH was broadcasting. This was on two HD receivers, a one-year-old Sony 40" 720p HDTV and a Channel Master CM-7000 feeding a small CRT. I will say that the Brighthouse HD feed looked better than OTA. I'll make another comparison this afternoon.

I am not a moderator here. Just another forum participant.

That's right...

Here's his review along with some comments after watching and comparing all four CBS stations.............


"If I get up to about 10 inches from the screen and on a fast moving camera following players, the floor boards lose some detail during the fast move."

This is the well-known 'floorboarding' problem. :D

By "floorboarding" do you mean the appearance that the detail in the floor blurs during camera movement and then comes in sharp when the camera is not moving? Strip hardwood flooring must really drive the image digitizers nuts. But remember the old days of analog when a striped tie on a newscaster would create a moiré pattern in the picture?

By "floorboarding" do you mean the appearance that the detail in the floor blurs during camera movement and then comes in sharp when the camera is not moving? Strip hardwood flooring must really drive the image digitizers nuts. But remember the old days of analog when a striped tie on a newscaster would create a moiré pattern in the picture?


Mine was a tongue-in-cheek remark, to poke the ribs of the videophiles in this forum.

I'm given to making smart-aleck cracks, just to distract everyone from the substance of more important subjects (you know, like AIG, etc.) that, thanks to the marvels of technology, multi-thousand dollar receivers and $100+ monthly cable bills, we can now all watch reported in High Definition and 7.1 audio but instead prefer ShowTime.

(P.S. I used to think those broadcasters wore moire ties just to trigger acid flash-backs....)

UCLA-Villanova game looks pretty good to me both OTA and via Brighthouse. This is on a Sony 40" 720p HDTV at about 10 feet. I believe there is some blurring or grain to the hardwood floor in halfcourt shots when the camera moves, but it sharpens up when the camera stops.

Also, Dish and DirecTV both receive us over-the-air, so there ought to be little difference. BrightHouse and AT&T U-verse both have direct studio feeds, but this is after encoding, so there's no difference in the data rate from over-the-air.
This is almost enough to make me keep Brighthouse and not go back to DirecTV...Nah, Brighthouse still doesn't have near the HD channels that DirecTV has.

Thanks for whatever you guys are doing to provide Brighthouse with a signal that, to my eyes, looks as good as OTA.