Kudos to WRTV for intelligently handling the snow closing crawl tonight!

...........It's not a matter of being a fan or not.

That's exactly right, it's about paying big dollars to sit a mile away.
I probably would pay more than a reasonable amount just to say I saw the game, even though the view would not have been all that great.
Something to tell your kids and grandkids about....
Nat

Thanks, Nat. I think I "purified" the thread with my reply. (Also, I forgot to mention I remember *exactly* where I was when the Blackhawks beat the Red Wings for the 1961 Stanley Cup. I was lying on the floor in my parent's living room, listening to the game on radio.)

I haven't been able to pull in WFYI either last night (Thursday) or tonight (Friday).

I can pull in the often-difficult signals of WTHR and WISH, so I'm puzzled by WFYI which I've never really had any problems with before.

Thanks for the update on WIPB, as I hadn't noticed the recent change. Unfortunately, WIPB joins the ranks of WFYI and WTIU at 720p. WTIU airs four streams, 1-HD and 3-SD. I've always made the same observation......."WIPB's OTA HD has always looked better than WFYI's (even when both put out 1080i)." I don't watch PBS very often but, IMHO, WIPB's HD has always been the clearest and sharpest.

Bob Fairchild is the CE at WIPB if you'd care to send him some feedback.
http://www.bsu.edu/wipb/about/contact.asp

Steve

I received some correspondence from Mr. Fairchild. He reported that the 720p downgrade was a "programming" decision, and partly due to the addition of 49.3. When I noted that WISTV has a great 1080i 8.1 with two sub channels, he noted that WIPB has an early edition ATSC encoder that does not allow for dynamic mulitplexing, and has less efficient encoding than the newer encoders (which free up bandwidth).

I noted that I still thought that WIPB's 720p looked better than WFYI's 720p, and that it was too bad that the U.S.'s early HD standards adoption missed out on H.264 for OTA which would have freed up some bandwidth.

I also noted concerns about the 4:3 placement of their station I.D. bug on 16:9 broadcasts (unfortunately, not unique to this station). Again, he noted that it was a programming (not engineering) decision to place the bug in the 4:3 corner. He did say that he would forward my concern to programming, and I did tell him that the 4:3 bug has interfered with text and sub-titles on some programs. I believe Fox's national broadcast is the only one that have moved its bug into the new post-digital transition and is in the corner of 16:9 content.

"In the early afternoon timeslot, the Winter Classic finished fourth among its sports competition -- "

OUCH!!!!!

http://sportsmediawatch.blogspot.com/2010/01/winter-classic-draws-21-final-rating.html

"the Winter Classic finished fourth among its sports competition -- " OUCH!!!!!

How close behind was #5? :D

(I guess there's a lot of non-hockey fans out there....)

As of Saturday afternoon/evening, WFYI is back again, strong.

What accounted for its disappearance of Thurs and Fri is a mystery.

As of Saturday afternoon/evening, WFYI is back again, strong.

What accounted for its disappearance of Thurs and Fri is a mystery.

Must be dem daar alienz! :eek:

Ion has always been my challenge to tune in consistently with amplified rabbit ears.

Hey guys!

I went to college in Indy about 10 year ago, and my wife and I plan to move back up in the summer. I don't even know yet what side of the city we will be moving to, but I was wondering what is available as far as television and internet providers. I thought Time Warner was available. I currently have Dish Network for TV and Avenue Cable broadband.

I have an OTA antenna that feeds into both my DVR and main TV. If it weren't for NFL Network and ESPN (and my wife!), I would probably just get all my TV programming through Hulu and other internet sites along with my antenna.

So again, can someone tell me or point me somewhere where I can see what is available for TV and internet in Indy? I don't know of a better place to ask than here, so I apologize if this is not the appropriate thread to ask this question. Thanks!

DAMAC, welcome back to Indiana. I've left the state three times in my life and moved back each time.

OTA reception depends on where you are. All of the major TV transmitters in Indianapolis are located near 79th Street and Township Line Road on the northwest side of Marion County. I'm only about 12 miles from most of the transmitters and I'm very happy with my OTA reception with just rabbit ears.

The local affiliates for the major networks (ABC, CBS, CW, Fox, NBC, and PBS) are available in HD from DirecTV, but I don't think Dish has them all yet.

Cable depends also on where you are. Part of Marion County is Brighthouse while other parts are Comcast. Those companies also operate in the suburban counties, but there are exceptions. As far as I know, all of the cable companies in the area offer cable modem Internet access.

AT&T is the telephone provider for most of the Indianapolis area and offers UVerse in many locations. AT&T offers DSL or UVerse for Internet access.

DAMAC, welcome back to Indiana. I've left the state three times in my life and moved back each time.

OTA reception depends on where you are. All of the major TV transmitters in Indianapolis are located near 79th Street and Township Line Road on the northwest side of Marion County. I'm only about 12 miles from most of the transmitters and I'm very happy with my OTA reception with just rabbit ears.

The local affiliates for the major networks (ABC, CBS, CW, Fox, NBC, and PBS) are available in HD from DirecTV, but I don't think Dish has them all yet.

Cable depends also on where you are. Part of Marion County is Brighthouse while other parts are Comcast. Those companies also operate in the suburban counties, but there are exceptions. As far as I know, all of the cable companies in the area offer cable modem Internet access.

AT&T is the telephone provider for most of the Indianapolis area and offers UVerse in many locations. AT&T offers DSL or UVerse for Internet access.

Thanks! That is exactly the kind of info I was looking for. I am leaning toward living in the Brownsburg area.

I am leaning toward living in the Brownsburg area.
Nice place. Property taxes are a little high, but the schools are good. Oh, I live in Brownsburg, so I may be biased. ;)

The older part of Brownsburg is Comcast, but the newer subdivisions north and west of town are Brighthouse. Don't know about the subs east of town.

AT&T has DSL and UVerse in the Brownsburg exchange. Unfortunately, I'm too far from the CO to get DSL and too far from the nearest VRAD to get UVerse. So, I'm using Brighthouse for Internet. It's too expensive, in my opinion, but it's about my only option.

Nice place. Property taxes are a little high, but the schools are good. Oh, I live in Brownsburg, so I may be biased. ;)

The older part of Brownsburg is Comcast, but the newer subdivisions north and west of town are Brighthouse. Don't know about the subs east of town.

AT&T has DSL and UVerse in the Brownsburg exchange. Unfortunately, I'm too far from the CO to get DSL and too far from the nearest VRAD to get UVerse. So, I'm using Brighthouse for Internet. It's too expensive, in my opinion, but it's about my only option.

I almost asked you if you lived in the Brownsburg area when you mentioned your distance from the OTA towers. I was looking at the pricing for TV & internet, and it is on par with what I am paying now. I pay $55 for Dish and $46 for Avenue Broadband. It seems like you can get decent internet and a basic TV package with HD and DVR for $100 to $110. Like I said, though, I could almost go OTA and internet alone if it weren't for football being broadcast on NFL Network and ESPN. Well, that and my wife. :)

Keep in mind that Brighthouse does not have the NFL Network. I currently have Brighthouse and that is a sore point.

Anyone have issues with NBC OTA on Thursday? My recordings were a bit messy, but it didnt look like typical OTA reception problems... looked like maybe it was on the encoding end. I'm not sure, I just know it looked different than it normally looks when I have reception issues. *shrugs* Just wondered. ;)

I dunno why but AVSForum seems to forget that its supposed to tell me when there are new posts in this thread... I go weeks and forget to check in cuz I dont get any e-mails, and then when I do I see I miss like 3 pages worth of chatter :) Hrmph ;)

--Eric

Aryq: I had great problems pulling in a picture/signal on WTHR Thursday at all. It pretty well messed-up '30 Rock' entirely.

But that's not the only period I've encountered difficulties with WTHR of late. It's now my least-dependable station. I got NOTHING Saturday on the hockey game. NOTHING.

I also noticed something unusual this past weekend. Where I got a strong '6' signal on WTHR for one program, the very next (i.e. the following) program registered a '1' and thus was virtually unwatchable. I can't recall the shows, but it dawned on me that the better signal strength was for the program I suspected would likely have the larger audience. I wonder if they're moderating the power from one program to the next.

It's really not that common this time of year, but over the past few days the Midwest experienced some moderate to strong tropospheric ducting. The strongest I saw here in the Indy area was yesterday, starting early afternoon and running till around midnight or so. Another Indy DXer and I saw stations from Peoria, Chicago, Milwaukee, Muskegon/Grand Rapids, Saginaw, Detroit and Toledo. For a few minutes around 3 p.m., I even saw several DTVs from St. Louis. Another DXer in Champaign reported that WRTV and WTTK were in most of the day (Sunday), and I read that a couple of viewers in the Chicago area reported receiving WRTV over the weekend.

THeller, there are several DTVs north of Indy on channel 13 (WREX-Rockford, IL; WZZM-Grand Rapids; WTVG-Toledo) that might have overridden WTHR. The mixing of two or more DTV signals simultaneously on the same channel usually ends up cancelling all signals. For example, I noticed last night that while WTVS-DT 43, Detroit was at times virtually pegging the signal meter, I could not receive WXYZ-DT 41, Detroit because it was being overridden by a stronger signal from WHIO-DT 41, Dayton.

See if your reception is more "normal" this week.

Steve

The local affiliates for the major networks (ABC, CBS, CW, Fox, NBC, and PBS) are available in HD from DirecTV, but I don't think Dish has them all yet.



Dish has all but PBS.

It's really not that common this time of year, but over the past few days the Midwest experienced some moderate to strong tropospheric ducting. The strongest I saw here in the Indy area was yesterday, starting early afternoon and running till around midnight or so.
Steve

Thanks, Steve. I knew there had to be something behind it, so I appreciate your diagnosis.

Last night, I watched my favorite (Law and Order - Criminal Intent) on WNDY 23 and there were countless periods of signal loss. I was able to catch enough of the dialogue to make sense of the show, but it was quite an effort.

Just FYI, Qualcomm has filed a notice with the FCC that they will be lighting up transmitters in Muncie and Lafayette on the channel 55 spectrum they own. The actual lighting up may still be months out, but the notices are filed.

One is at 47 kW and the other at 50 kW.

- Trip

Just FYI, Qualcomm has filed a notice with the FCC that they will be lighting up transmitters in Muncie and Lafayette on the channel 55 spectrum they own. The actual lighting up may still be months out, but the notices are filed.

One is at 47 kW and the other at 50 kW.

- Trip

Excellent info, Trip. Thanks mucho...

Just FYI, Qualcomm has filed a notice with the FCC that they will be lighting up transmitters in Muncie and Lafayette on the channel 55 spectrum they own. The actual lighting up may still be months out, but the notices are filed.

One is at 47 kW and the other at 50 kW.

- Trip

I have to wonder if every owned frequency won't mysteriously soon be transmitting something (anything!:)), just in case the FCC changes its mind and tries to auction OTA frequencies off.

WHOOPS: I now understand that Qualcomm is not your local OTA television supplier, but is in fact going to transmit "subscription based-based video clipping service you can see over your cell phone"
Here is a fascinating discussion of this whole issue: http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv/Mediaflo-mstv-president-20060222/
I apologize for not understanding the situation before I posted originally, and would be more than happy if Trip or somebody who understands the situation would jump in here and clarify the true significance of this

The significance is that a 50 kW digital signal very nearby could cause overload in receivers or pre-amps and as such if something suddenly starts causing interference, a filter to chop of channel 55 would likely help the situation.

- Trip

"And all of this happened in an incredibly short time." says Mr. David Donovan of the Association for Maximum Service Television.

Now, that's funny to read, four years later. That Broadcast Engineering story was dated Feb. 2006!

I guess time just flies when you're asleep at the wheel, which is what I consider the broadcast industry to be. Don't look for any innovation from members of the Nat'l Association of Broadcasters -- and apparent front-runner groups like Mr. Donovan's. (I mean, what the hell is 'maximum service television', anyway?)

And talk about the pot calling the kettle black, I quote Mr. Donovan again: "What we are looking at here to some degree is unjust enrichment."

These guys in the broadcast industry really crack me up. Anybody know what they pay for their licenses? (You know, those licenses to print money.)

Last but not least, Mr. Donovan vastly overstates the 'issue': "Will the commission permit an involuntary loss of universal, free over-the-air viewing...?"

Oh, cry me a river! There's no LOSS, at least not one proven -- it's only alleged. It's a figment of his over-active imagination. What IS the interference level - and does it affect channels other than the immediate adjacent one (should that even be occupied by any signal)?

Nat - you may want to visit your local Radio Shack -- that's where I spotted the sales brochure for FLO-TV. It's not a 'video clipping service one can watch on their cellphone'. They've got a whole lot more bandwidth to work with than a cellphone has, and they're doing interesting things with it.

Qualcomm developed CDMA technology, the cellular radio system Verizon employs and they pioneered Verizon's V-Cast service. That likely worked as a test-bed for them. They're not knuckle-draggers like the people Mr. Donovan makes excuses for (if he's still in his post).

Anyone else having issues with ION TV (63.x) the past couple days? Yesterday my late-afternoon recordings didn't happen at all cuz my tuner wasn't able to get a lock, and today they recorded but they are completely unwatchable. I'm not able to get a lock right now, either. Up until Wednesday, I haven't had any problems at all. No changes in my setup, antenna, anything either. Ahwell.

Anyone else having issues with ION TV (63.x) the past couple days?
Yes. I just checked and not enough signal with rabbit ears in Brownsburg to decode with a Sony KDL40S3000 or a Channel Master CM7000.

Yes. I just checked and not enough signal with rabbit ears in Brownsburg to decode with a Sony KDL40S3000 or a Channel Master CM7000.

Boo, this is still a problem... I haven't gotten a good recording off of ION in days now.

Ohwell.

Boo, this is still a problem... I haven't gotten a good recording off of ION in days now.
Ohwell.

Are you missing anything of value?

Are you missing anything of value?

Not particularly... but still kinda frustrating ;) Mostly just 'filler' to keep me entertained at the end of the day or while eating lunch. :)

WISH has filed for a fill-in translator on channel 17.

- Trip

I had some problems with my mail service while I was on vacation. I thought I might have missed some mail. Has anyone served by the Anderson/New Castle Comcast headend received any notice of them going "all digital" except for limited basic channels on March 1st?

I have not received any such notice. Tivo has notified me that Comcast will be going all digital but gave no date. When I spoke to Comcast about another matter, I asked about the all digital transition. He indicated I should have received a letter regarding the March 1st cutoff.

Can anyone fill me in?

I had some problems with my mail service while I was on vacation. I thought I might have missed some mail. Has anyone served by the Anderson/New Castle Comcast headend received any notice of them going "all digital" except for limited basic channels on March 1st?

I have not received any such notice. Tivo has notified me that Comcast will be going all digital but gave no date. When I spoke to Comcast about another matter, I asked about the all digital transition. He indicated I should have received a letter regarding the March 1st cutoff.

Can anyone fill me in?

FWIW, here's some info I received from a friend using Comcast-Kokomo:


Dear Comcast Customer:
In the coming months Comcast will be improving the services that we deliver to your community. We're enhancing our network in order to provide more services and benefits than ever before, including access to over 100 HD channels.
As part of the enhancement we will begin transmitting Expanded Service channels 23-58,63, and 66-68, exclusively in digital format on April 8, 2010. In order to continue viewing Expanded Service channels after this date you will need Comcast digital equipment on all your TVs connected to cable. Comcast will provide you with digital equipment for up to three TVs at no additional monthly cost. We will also move some of our channels to new service levels on March 2, 2010.

Thanks. The rep I spoke to indicated something about some equipment being furnished free of charge before March 1. However, if I asked for it after March 1 there would be a charge.

I asked him to send me another copy of the notification letter. We shall see if I get it.

I have issues getting channels 4, 23, and 63 and live on the northwest side of town. Do you guys have any suggestions?

I have issues getting channels 4, 23, and 63 and live on the northwest side of town. Do you guys have any suggestions?

http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx is a great source of information.
The towers to the stations you have mentioned are located in the metropolis of Trafalgar, IN, almost due South from you.
Good luck!

I have issues getting channels 4, 23, and 63 and live on the northwest side of town. Do you guys have any suggestions?

I'm in the same area as you, and with my original antenna I had consistent issues with those stations. My new antenna has been pretty good (though 63 has been a bit of a chore, recently). FYI, if you can pick up 29.x (which you should have no trouble with at all), you don't need to pick up 4.x. 29.x is the northern re-broadcast of 4.x. I don't even have 4.x setup in my Myth config these days, I just use 29.x instead.

Best of luck...
~Aryq~

Welcome to AVS Forum, Jobbie. As Nat pointed out, 4 and 63 transmit from Trafalgar, south of Indy in Johnson County. But 23, WNDY, has its tower site NNE of Noblesville, near Strawtown, IN (east of Cicero). Especially if you are using an indoor antenna, placement and aim of the antenna can be critical for best reception.

As NefariousAryq pointed out, if you are having issues receiving ch. 4, WTTV, you should be able to receive its satellite station, WTTK, which simulcasts WTTV's programming. Last year, WTTK moved its transmitter and tower site from Windfall, north of Indy in Tipton County, to sister station WXIN's tower site on the northwest side of Indy. Instead of receiving WTTV-DT 4, RF channel 48, look for WTTK-DT 29, on RF channel 29. If you receive WXIN, then you should be set to receive WTTK.

Steve

...As Nat pointed out, 4 and 63 transmit from Trafalgar, south of Indy in Johnson County. But 23, WNDY, has its tower site NNE of Noblesville, near Strawtown, IN (east of Cicero)...
Steve

Thanks for setting the record straight, Steve.:)

My NBC recordings from last night were all sorts of unwatchable... boo WTHR!

My NBC recordings from last night were all sorts of unwatchable... boo WTHR!

Yeah, I second the complaint - I'm having continued difficulty pulling in WTHR down here in Columbus.

Yeah, I second the complaint - I'm having continued difficulty pulling in WTHR down here in Columbus.

Whenever you lose your reception of WTHR, do you see any correlation with your signal from WISH, or is WISH still strong enough and stable enough that you don't see any dropouts? I'm trying to compare the similarities as well as the differences between these two VHF signals. Your off and on issue with WTHR could be caused by low signal level, interference from another DTV on RF channel 13, or a combination of both.

I know we've discussed this before, but after DXing DTV since 2001, I know that antenna aim is VERY CRITICAL for weak DTV signals. If your reception issue is a combination of weak signal and co-channel interference, many times defeating, or nulling the interference is more important than achieving the strongest signal. Sometimes deliberately misaiming the antenna a little to null or cut down the signal from the interfering station will actually improve the receiver's decoding ability.

Also, I was recently in downtown Columbus, and while tuning around on the car radio, I noticed that local WKKG-101.5 was so strong, that it could be heard at other frequencies on the dial. I believe you are using the Channel Master 7777 preamp. If so, do you have the FM trap switch in the "on" position?


Just some thoughts.

This whole VHF thing is just so strange.
My brother in law could not get WTHR when it was UHF, now with the change to VHF, it comes in just fine.
He's on the South side of Bloomington, with an ancient antenna on his roof.
Weird science!

I appreciate the thinking, Steve.

I *do* have the FM trap turned on (at least that's my recollection. I'll make sure to check at my next opportunity.)

There doesn't seem to be any correlation with the quality of my reception of WISH's signal. I've been watching that, actually for the last several months, and haven't noticed any.

I don't have the skills or equipment to ascertain whether it's low signal strength or co-channel interference on 13. After the digital change-over, I played with the antenna aim , with only the slightest change (<2 degrees). No one aim really did any better than what I finally settled on.

I'm puzzled, but it's too cold to go up on the roof and fiddle with the antenna (and I don't have access to the roof at present, either, so it's a moot issue). I'll suffer in silence -- except for my posts here, of course.

I've currently got great freeze-frame, audio-clipping coverage of the Olympics. Woo-hoo!! That's a slight improvement over the "Weak or no signal" message.

This whole VHF thing is just so strange.
My brother in law could not get WTHR when it was UHF, now with the change to VHF, it comes in just fine.
He's on the South side of Bloomington, with an ancient antenna on his roof.
Weird science!


Not surprised his ancient antenna couldn't pull in WTHR on UHF but can on its VHF frequency. Maybe I should hunt around for an ancient antenna!

In regards to WTHR / WISH, in my personal setup I find no correlation between a bad WTHR signal and a bad WISH signal at the same time. In fact, on Thursday, when all of my WTHR recordings were rubbish, my WISH signal was fine. I recorded Survivor and Mentalist that night, and both recordings were pristine. In fact, with my new antenna, I don't recall ever having a single problem with any of the local "big 4" (ABC CBS FOX NBC) except for WTHR.

*shrugs*

Not surprised his ancient antenna couldn't pull in WTHR on UHF but can on its VHF frequency. Maybe I should hunt around for an ancient antenna!

The ancient antenna was a great UHF/VHF combo Winegard in its day, but its day was probably twenty years ago! I still say digital television signals are weird science.

I still say digital television signals are weird science.

No argument from me!

Welcome to AVS Forum, Jobbie. As Nat pointed out, 4 and 63 transmit from Trafalgar, south of Indy in Johnson County. But 23, WNDY, has its tower site NNE of Noblesville, near Strawtown, IN (east of Cicero). Especially if you are using an indoor antenna, placement and aim of the antenna can be critical for best reception.

As NefariousAryq pointed out, if you are having issues receiving ch. 4, WTTV, you should be able to receive its satellite station, WTTK, which simulcasts WTTV's programming. Last year, WTTK moved its transmitter and tower site from Windfall, north of Indy in Tipton County, to sister station WXIN's tower site on the northwest side of Indy. Instead of receiving WTTV-DT 4, RF channel 48, look for WTTK-DT 29, on RF channel 29. If you receive WXIN, then you should be set to receive WTTK.

Steve

Thanks for the welcome. I think I get two channels on 29 (I receive 59 fine as well), but my set says neither can be decoded. I want to say they are .10 and 11. I'll look next time I go home because I am at school right now. Could it be possible I need to turn my antenna? I've got an outdoor one, but I am not sure what type and model.

Is it just me, or are others seen a lot of macro blocking on NBC's OTA Olympic broadcasts on 13.1 (forget about 13.3 as I got better PQ from RealPlayer streams on a dial-up years ago). I'm viewing on an LED DLP and a budget LCD, so I don't think it's the particular set.

Thanks. The rep I spoke to indicated something about some equipment being furnished free of charge before March 1. However, if I asked for it after March 1 there would be a charge.

I asked him to send me another copy of the notification letter. We shall see if I get it.

I'm an OTA and internet viewer, but I was wondering with this digital switch for cable, are they now moving to h.264? If so, does anyone know what bandwidth they are allotting for each of the "100 HD channels". If you are going from MPEG to h.264 to the TV (which may then be scaling again), is that PQ as good as OTA?

Is it just me, or are others seen a lot of macro blocking on NBC's OTA Olympic broadcasts on 13.1

No, you're not alone. And see Nefarious Aryq's post above, too.

Whatever the cause, I've only been able to watch about an hour of the Olympics this far. Woo-hoo! eh?

I saw NOTHING last night (fortunately 'Lost' on ABC was excellent.) I've about given up on NBC/WTHR. Whatever they're doing sure ain't working for me.

Is it just me, or are others seen a lot of macro blocking on NBC's OTA Olympic broadcasts on 13.1

No, it's not just you, as I've noticed it too. And it's not just WTHR via OTA. I've noticed the same macro blocking issue watching Olympic coverage on MSNBC-HD and CNBC-HD via cable (Bright House Networks). It's been this way with all fast-moving scenes on NBC, especially with sporting events, like NFL games on SNF.

My Bright House cable bill just went up another $5! I'm very close to telling them what I think of their charges and totally dropping their service. I'm tired of paying for all the junk channels I NEVER watch.

My Bright House cable bill just went up another $5! I'm very close to telling them what I think of their charges and totally dropping their service. I'm tired of paying for all the junk channels I NEVER watch.

DO IT! We've been OTA-only here for over a year now... With OTA and internet video, we're doin' *just* fine staying entertained! Saving over $100/month from what we were throwing-away to Comcast is sweet! :)

I've been subscription-free* for three and almost one-half years.

I consider all the telecom companies (cable/satellite,cellular, internet access) to be pirates, maximally milking money from virtually everyone's pockets. I will do almost anything to avoid them.

* well, almost subscription-free. I have been a happy subscriber to XM satellite radio for more than five years. I consider it to be one subscription that is 'worth it'.

Also wanted to report that tonight (Friday) is the *first* night I've been able to pull in a good signal to watch the Olympics on WTHR. (Hooray at last!!!!!) The Super-G competition was wonderful. And it's great to see venues such as downtown Vancouver's waterfront and mountains I'd visit from time to time when I lived down the road in Seattle. It looks great in HD!

Any word on any new HD coming to Bright House Indiana?

It does seem like you guys are a little behind other BHN systems outside of the panhandle of Florida.

Any word on any new HD coming to Bright House Indiana?

It does seem like you guys are a little behind other BHN systems outside of the panhandle of Florida.

BHN (Carmel, IN) has added a number of HD channels over the past several months (some of which I get) but rarely do I watch more than 5-10 of them. Per their recent and updated info brochure, BHN added 37 new HD channels in 2009. At the moment, per their brochure, the local BHN service provides a total of 77 HD channels, including seven local network/OTA stations.

How does 77 HD channels compare to other BHN areas in Florida?

Steve

Also wanted to report that tonight (Friday) is the *first* night I've been able to pull in a good signal to watch the Olympics on WTHR. (Hooray at last!!!!!) The Super-G competition was wonderful. And it's great to see venues such as downtown Vancouver's waterfront and mountains I'd visit from time to time when I lived down the road in Seattle. It looks great in HD!

Relating to my recent comments regarding your in and out signal issue with WTHR, I'm still wondering if your problem might be caused, at least in part, by interference from one of the strong local FM stations.
http://www.wtfda.info/showpost.php?p=11442&postcount=4

That's interesting, Steve. Thank you. I now more fully appreciate the significance of the FM filter switch on the CM-7777 amp!

Alas, my picture has been fine last night and today-- and 101.5 is on the air up the street. Is there a custom that FM stations power-down on Friday nights and Saturdays? (I'd have a hard time believing that!)

Canadian TV Switch Displeases Americans

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/21/sports/olympics/21cbc.html?hpw

DETROIT — It was an instinctual move, honed through years of watching the Olympics on television. Tom August, a resident of Bloomfield Hills, Mich., changed channels to see what was on CBC, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. It’s an option available to many American border cities like Detroit, Buffalo and Seattle, and a secret escape for Americans who do not want to watch NBC.


Man, do I miss the CBC, too. They know their winter sports! NBC doesn't.... Now Lester Holt is explaining curling! Aieeee!!!!

Anyone experiencing the audio/video out of sync with WTHR? I first noticed it on Friday while watching the news and now again this morning with Sunrise and now the Today show. It cuts on and out some too. (I am on DirecTV HD this morning but was on Comcast Friday when I first noticed it.)

Yes I have noticed it also, OTA and DirectvHD

Yep -- and for awhile on Friday? Saturday?, I had an excellent picture but NO audio!

Anyone experiencing the audio/video out of sync with WTHR? I first noticed it on Friday while watching the news and now again this morning with Sunrise and now the Today show. It cuts on and out some too. (I am on DirecTV HD this morning but was on Comcast Friday when I first noticed it.)

I noticed it yesterday on DirecTV on two different TVs. I switched to OTA for the Olympics last night and had no issues. It was really bad this morning but everything seems fine now.

........ Is there a custom that FM stations power-down on Friday nights and Saturdays? (I'd have a hard time believing that!)

I can't say for sure that they do, but back in the early 70's, an electronics instructor at UEI in Shively KY told us they do at night and on weekends, when factories are shut down. They don't need as much power to cut through the drop in RFI generated.

If this is still true..... I guess only a station engineer would know.

Steve,

We have over 100 in Orlando and Tampa.

You guys along with Michigan are slightly behind but BHN does it very well especially for a small cable company.

I can't say for sure that they do, but back in the early 70's, an electronics instructor at UEI in Shively KY told us they do at night and on weekends, when factories are shut down. They don't need as much power to cut through the drop in RFI generated.

If this is still true..... I guess only a station engineer would know.


Very interesting!

Breaking News - Sunday 10 PM EST NBC Screws Olympic Hockey fans again

The U.S. hockey team beat Canada 5-3, but it wasn't aired live -- except after the final whistle.....

Way to go, *A*S*S*H*O*L*E*s!

Breaking News - Sunday 10 PM EST NBC Screws Olympic Hockey fans again

The U.S. hockey team beat Canada 5-3, but it wasn't aired live -- except after the final whistle.....

Way to go, *A*S*S*H*O*L*E*s!

True dat, bro.

That's how I feel, Nat.

Breaking News - Sunday 10 PM EST NBC Screws Olympic Hockey fans again

The U.S. hockey team beat Canada 5-3, but it wasn't aired live -- except after the final whistle.....

The entire game was aired live on MSNBC, but not on NBC.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1229060

The entire game was aired live on MSNBC, but not on NBC.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1229060


That was a very interesting thread to read. Not too many happy campers.

It's worth noting that the first post apparently was made an hour into the MSNBC coverage.

Thanks for finding & pointing to it, Steve.

As NefariousAryq pointed out, if you are having issues receiving ch. 4, WTTV, you should be able to receive its satellite station, WTTK, which simulcasts WTTV's programming. Last year, WTTK moved its transmitter and tower site from Windfall, north of Indy in Tipton County, to sister station WXIN's tower site on the northwest side of Indy. Instead of receiving WTTV-DT 4, RF channel 48, look for WTTK-DT 29, on RF channel 29. If you receive WXIN, then you should be set to receive WTTK.

I had been getting WXIN until 6:00 this morning. I have been unable to get WXIN, but did get WTTK in the Southwest side of Marion.

Due to my apartment lease I am not able to raise my Radioshack 57 element Antenna over 40 feet, which I have been using since October 2008 during the WISH-TV Bright House Dispute. I don't need to check AntennaWeb.org, because I know Marion (in Grant County, IN) can still receive Indianapolis AND Fort Wayne TV the last time I checked.

I had been getting WXIN until 6:00 this morning. I have been unable to get WXIN, but did get WTTK in the Southwest side of Marion.

Due to my apartment lease I am not able to raise my Radioshack 57 element Antenna over 40 feet, which I have been using since October 2008 during the WISH-TV Bright House Dispute. I don't need to check AntennaWeb.org, because I know Marion (in Grant County, IN) can still receive Indianapolis AND Fort Wayne TV the last time I checked.

I forwarded your email to an engineer at WXIN and just a few minutes ago I received a reply that all is fine at the transmitter site. In fact, he was at the site earlier today to check on the equipment. He mentioned that when he looked up, he could not see the antenna at the top of the tower due to heavy fog. We still have some fog and a very, very light mist in the area. Could just be weather-related reception issue today, since you normally do receive WXIN. This is about the worst weather possible for signal propagation.

Steve

I forwarded your email to an engineer at WXIN and just a few minutes ago I received a reply that all is fine at the transmitter site. In fact, he was at the site earlier today to check on the equipment. He mentioned that when he looked up, he could not see the antenna at the top of the tower due to heavy fog. We still have some fog and a very, very light mist in the area. Could just be weather-related reception issue today, since you normally do receive WXIN. This is about the worst weather possible for signal propagation.

Steve

Unfortunately for me I missed their 4PM newscast along with God knows what else.

You could be right about the weather. Maybe they ought to boost their power.

Well, it's back to no picture on WTHR.

It must be a weekday.....

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2011172111_apustecfccspectrumshortage.html

FCC seeking more spectrum for wireless broadband

Federal regulators are hoping to find more wireless spectrum for mobile broadband services by reallocating some airwaves now assigned to television broadcasters and others.


Genachowski said broadcast television spectrum is particularly attractive for broadband because those airwaves are not being put to efficient use even though they contain "billions of dollars of unlocked value." TV broadcasters hold nearly 300 megahertz of spectrum, but use that spectrum mostly to serve the 10 percent of American homes that still rely solely on over-the-air TV signals.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2011172111_apustecfccspectrumshortage.html

FCC seeking more spectrum for wireless broadband

Federal regulators are hoping to find more wireless spectrum for mobile broadband services by reallocating some airwaves now assigned to television broadcasters and others.


Genachowski said broadcast television spectrum is particularly attractive for broadband because those airwaves are not being put to efficient use even though they contain "billions of dollars of unlocked value." TV broadcasters hold nearly 300 megahertz of spectrum, but use that spectrum mostly to serve the 10 percent of American homes that still rely solely on over-the-air TV signals.

If DVR user don't watch commercials, then they've probably missed the short AD-Burp by the "Broadcasters Group" telling you to call your Congresspeople to demand they, 'Special Interests', keep their hands off our Free TV.

Call, write, bombard your reps to express your concern.....Supposidly, only 10% of us out here.....far more that the measly few that demanded prayer be removed from school. We should be able to stop this, unless Congress is truly, more favorable to the smut cable feeds our children.

Steve and Chris's alert that my difficulties with WTHR-13 may relate to the strong 101.5 MHz FM transmitter nearby (a close second harmonic to Ch. 13) has lead me to order a Wineguard FT7600 FM trap from Warren Electronics.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this will solve the vexing problem and will be up to the task of attenuating the nearby signal.

Apparently, the CM-7777's filter isn't up to snuff in my situation.

Will also be getting a rotator from Warren Electronics, which may enable me to pull in Bloomington PBS Ch. 30 (WFIU) as well as the Louisville stations. It'd be nice to watch the 500 live.

Steve and Chris's alert that my difficulties with WTHR-13 may relate to the strong 101.5 MHz FM transmitter nearby (a close second harmonic to Ch. 13) has lead me to order a Wineguard FT7600 FM trap from Warren Electronics.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this will solve the vexing problem and will be up to the task of attenuating the nearby signal.

Apparently, the CM-7777's filter isn't up to snuff in my situation.

Will also be getting a rotator from Warren Electronics, which may enable me to pull in Bloomington PBS Ch. 30 (WFIU) as well as the Louisville stations. It'd be nice to watch the 500 live.

The FT-7600 has worked great for me, but it takes an FM signal strength meter (or at least an FM tuner with a good signal strength indicator) to "tune" the filter to cut down the frequence you're interested in. And, it takes some really weird plastic hex wrenches as well.
I'll bet you'll really enjoy a rotor. I think WTIU in Bloomington will be easy, and I'll also bet you do well with Louisville.
Good luck, and keep us all posted.

The FT-7600 has worked great for me, but it takes an FM signal strength meter (or at least an FM tuner with a good signal strength indicator) to "tune" the filter to cut down the frequence you're interested in. And, it takes some really weird plastic hex wrenches as well.
I'll bet you'll really enjoy a rotor. I think WTIU in Bloomington will be easy, and I'll also bet you do well with Louisville.
Good luck, and keep us all posted.

Thanks for the input, Nat. The sales guy said most people don't tune it. Guess I may have fallen for the 'it's easy' suggestion....we'll see!

Thanks for the input, Nat. The sales guy said most people don't tune it. Guess I may have fallen for the 'it's easy' suggestion....we'll see!
The filter is VERY narrow in its focus. It has two individual adjustments, to either take out one station extremely well, or two stations very well.
I would think not tuning it would be a crap shoot regarding 101.5.
Just my opinion!
Nat

................It'd be nice to watch the 500 live.

FYI....outside the scope of this thread....but:
In case you have one of those unused C/Ku backyard 'bird dishes', I was able to find the 'contract feed' (no commercials) for the 500 last year with an FTA (free-to-air) receiver.
:cool:

FYI....outside the scope of this thread....but:
In case you have one of those unused C/Ku backyard 'bird dishes', I was able to find the 'contract feed' (no commercials) for the 500 last year with an FTA (free-to-air) receiver.
:cool:

No, I don't. But thanks for the thought!

I'd just settle for 'same hour' coverage....

The filter is VERY narrow in its focus.
I would think not tuning it would be a crap shoot regarding 101.5.


Asking around a bit this morning at the local TV shop (50+ years in business!), I think it's not 101.5 FM that's the reason for my difficulty pulling in Ch. 13 WTHR -- it's 107.3, with a transmitter about 600' away from my antennas.

107.3 x 2 = 214.6 MHz, which lies *squarely* within Ch. 13's licensed bandwidth, 210-216 MHz. So, that's the culprit!! (Thanks mucho to ccrider's observation re: second harmonics possibly at play here!)

Before I bother to install the FM trap, I will be asking the station whether their signal is observing its appropriate guard-bands - and dropping a hint about a possible FCC complaint if the interference continues. I suspect it has leaked beyond its bounds.

It's remarkable how a 100 kHz FM signal can absolutely cripple a 6 MHz one!

Just dawned on me that I have two antennas whose sensitivity *may* overlap and thus each could contribute to the RFI problem I have.

I've got a Winegard 1713 for VHF as well as a CM 4228 for UHF, but which also can pull in the high VHF signals. (I added the Winegard so I could pull in the Indianapolis CBS affiliate.)

Might this two-antenna set up be all the more sensitive to RF interference from that nearby 107.3 FM transmitter, perhaps introducing too strong a signal for my digital tuner to handle?

If so, how should I install a FM trap that only has one input lead? Should I attach it to one or both of the antennas?

I was thinking I'd only have to connect the trap to the Winegard 1713 antenna, prior to connecting to the in-line pre-amp. But it hadn't occurred to me that the CM 4228 may also be feeding RF interference into my cabling.

Maybe if I attach the new trap only to the Winegard VHF antenna, the CM 777 pre-amp's FM trap, which I'll keep in place, can cope with whatever FRI the CM 4228 introduces.

I suppose there are more variables to this equation....

Tom;
When I have tried to use two antennas, I've had horrible results. Multipath was the explanation given to me by folks who know something. I can only guess that your FM interference problem is at least due in part to having two antennas, cables leading in, etc.
I'll bet if you will combine the outputs from the two antennas as quickly as possible and then use the FM filter on the one lead (after tuning it to 107.3), you will have great success.

Tom;
When I have tried to use two antennas, I've had horrible results. Multipath was the explanation given to me by folks who know something. I can only guess that your FM interference problem is at least due in part to having two antennas, cables leading in, etc.
I'll bet if you will combine the outputs from the two antennas as quickly as possible and then use the FM filter on the one lead (after tuning it to 107.3), you will have great success.

The leads from each antenna *do* combine pretty quickly (within 3'). They currently combine at the CM 777 pre-amp box mounted at the base of the pole to which the two antennas are mounted.

The CM 777 pre-amp offers two inputs, one labeled VHF, the other UHF. I currently use both of them, then a single shielded coax cable runs ~130' from there to my CM 777's power unit and a short lead connects to my digital tuner. A ~3' HMDI-to-DVI cable then feeds the TV set.

Is there another way to combine the two antenna leads besides joining them at the CM 777? I suspect that I'd be best advised to locate the trap before the pre-amp, but I don't know what would be required to get those two leads down to one. I'm game to do that, but haven't a clue as to how to do that.

All that said, I do wonder if there's some 'synergy' happening between the two antennas at the high VHF frequencies (Ch. 13 area). If so, and since the trap only has one input, if I cannot combine the two leads prior to the pre-amp, then I'm faced with the question of which would be the better antenna to connect to the trap? t I'm thinking the Winegard VHF antenna would benefit the most from the trap, but it may require a lot of trials and errors.

Or am I fooling myself, thinking that I can overcome the RFI with only one of the two antennas going through the FM trap?

I'm reluctant to change antennas (i.e. buy one big VHF/UHF mf'er), as I'm trying to keep the total size down.

At this point, I'm just noodling through what I might encounter. Thanks for the input - it will keep me on my toes!

Tom;
Your setup sounds really good. I do know that the FT-7600 is "AC/DC passive (it will pass power to operate an antenna mounted preamplifier from a remote power supply)", so I can only guess you could put it AFTER the preamp, and BEFORE the power supply. Mounted properly, it's weather proof.
That would make the most sense to me, but if there's one thing I have learned, it's that experimentation and testing is the best way to go on a deal like yours.

(read this and you'll know why they're brown. He doesn't know obsolete from his ass...there's a lot of innovation coming down the pike in the broadcast realm. It's just not coming from the incumbent broadcasters.)

Richard H. Thaler is a professor of economics and behavioral science at the Booth School of Business at the University of Chicago

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/28/business/economy/28view.html?hpw

over-the-air broadcasts are becoming a nearly obsolete technology

By simply reallocating the way we use the radio spectrum now devoted to over-the-air television broadcasting, we can create a bonanza for the government, stimulate the economy and advance all of the other goals listed above. Really.

The leads from each antenna *do* combine pretty quickly (within 3'). They currently combine at the CM 777 pre-amp box mounted at the base of the pole to which the two antennas are mounted.
Are you saying that you have 300 ohm twinlead running from each antenna to the pre-amp? And the pre-amp has separate inputs for VHF and UHF?

It sounds like the pre-amp is also acting as a duplexer between VHF and UHF. Signals from the two inputs are being combined into one amplified output. If the duplexer is properly designed, it should filter the VHF frequencies out of the UHF input and vice versa. However, that's a big "if". Consumer grade TV amplifiers are notorious for their cheap designs.

Another factor that may be causing your problems with your duplexed antennas is phasing. The length of the feedline will impact the phasing at the point where the signals are being combined. If a signal from one antenna on Ch. 13 is combined with an out-of-phase signal from the other antenna on Ch. 13, the two signals will cancel each other out.

You can adjust the phasing by changing the relative length of the two feedlines. However, I think that if both feedlines are the same material, thus having the same velocity factor, and are the same length, then you probably don't have a phasing problem unless the duplexer inside the pre-amp is throwing one of the inputs out of phase. Of course, that assumes that the both antennas are in phase with each other, and they probably aren't, so you may have to juggle feedline lengths.

You previously mentioned a strong, nearby FM transmitter that might have a second harmonic in the Ch. 13 passband. I'd take a close look at this. However, tread lightly on blaming the FM station. Even if their signal meets FCC signal purity standards, in other words, it's not putting out harmonics above specified levels, you may still have a problem.

First problem may be that their signal is simply overloading the receiver in your TV. The only way to fix that is to filter out their signal. Second problem may be that a component in your pre-amp or in your TV is causing a second harmonic from the FM station to mix with Ch. 13. Blocking the FM signal may fix that or you may have to change the pre-amp or TV. Third problem may be that the FM transmitter is putting out excessive energy on its second harmonic. That will require a fix at the FM transmitter. But if they meet FCC standards, there's nothing you can do. The general concept behind FCC Part 15, the rules that cover receivers, is that they have accept interference from a legally-operating transmitter.

In the Grand Rapids area we have taken significant amount of signal measurements to determine our coverage area on channel 7. When we encountered a measuring point that was in excess of 40 miles from our transmitter and was within 2 miles of an FM transmitter, whose second harmonic landed between 179mhz and 187 mhz, the signal could not be decoded. This interference will only be enhanced with the use of a pre-amp. The use of pre-amps should not be used on VHF signals, they inevitably cause more harm than good. It is OK to use an amplified splitter because these amplifiers are designed to take a higher input signal and, therefore, will not get swamped out with FM signals. We are "wiped out" around a 2 mile radius of Hesperia, MI because of WBLU-FM. When a measurement farther out than Hesperia is taken, the signal is able to be decoded again. There is very little a viewer can do to clean up the situation. If the second harmonic is just outside the 6 mhz TV channel allocation, possibly a "suck out" filter might work. It would have to have a very narrow bandwidth and only affect the interfering signal and none of the frequencies contained within the 6 mhz of the TV channel.

Here's a pic of my antenna set up. I hadn't visited it for a few months.

I did discover one of the leads to the balun (?) on the UHF antenna (lower, a CM 4228) was broken, possibly from wind whipping the lead around. I repaired that connection and ran the lead and balun through the antenna's mesh, so to prevent wind-induced whiplash.

Strangely, I hadn't encountered any noticeable difficulties with my UHF reception, but it does seem that reconnecting the lead gives me a slightly better signal strength reading for WXIN 59. Not sure about that, but I don't think I'd been getting a 10/10 before. (Ten minutes later, WXIN 59 is at 8/10.)

I adjusted the alignment of the VHF antenna (upper, a Winegard 1713) a bit, pointing it more due north. Previously, as in this pic, it was pointed perhaps as much as 8-10 degrees W of North; I'd say it's now about 3 degrees W of North.

I then came back down off the roof to check on my Ch. 13 reception and -to my dismay- it was still a "Weak or No Signal" and 0/10 bars on the meter. This while WISH is coming in strong, 5 of 10 bars, with an occasional 4 (previously WISH typically pulled 3 bars, with an occasional 4.)

So, I think the answer to my difficulty with Ch. 13 lies with some nearby interference. WTHR's Al Grossniklaus emailed me on this matter and will make inquiries with a couple of possible nearby frequencies that could be introducing second harmonic energy into Ch. 13 locally. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

The difficulty has been particularly bad the past few/several weeks, starting well before the Olympics (I'd about given up watching NBC at night). But it was the inability to receive the Olympics that finally got me off my duff.

This interference will only be enhanced with the use of a pre-amp. The use of pre-amps should not be used on VHF signals, they inevitably cause more harm than good. It is OK to use an amplified splitter

Very interesting to read, Mike. Thank you. I've sent your observation on to WTHR 13's Al Grossniklaus.

When I noticed earlier today that one of the two leads from the UHF antenna was broken, I began to wonder why I was still receiving good signals for the UHF frequencies.

I still have no idea why that could be, but your comment that pre-amps shouldn't be used for VHF makes me want to experiment with bypassing the pre-amp entirely with *both* the UHF and VHF feeds. But I don't know how to do that (does it require a 2nd long cable run? my run currently is ~130 feet) and then I'd still have to combine the coaxes into one connection at my tuner. What's the name of the thingamabob I'd need to combine the leads?

As others have mentioned, have you tried equalizing the lengths of the two feed lines from the antennas yet? This would reduce/eliminate one possible source of phasing effects.

Thanks to suggestions in an extensive note I received from WTHR's Al Grossniklaus, I'm actually watching the Olympic gold medal hockey match. Woo-hoo!!

I removed the CH-7777 pre-amp entirely from the system. And it not only restored my Ch. 13 signal strength to 4 bars. WISH is a solid 6.

Now that the cause of the difficulties has been isolated (the China Master pre-amp; my second after the first failed in its first year a bit over two years ago), I just have to figure how to re-hook the UHF feed. Any suggestions for combiners (is that what they're called?)

Thanks to everyone who has chimed in on this thread. I hope it was some fun and mental exercise for you. I learned a bit too -- including that a pre-amp isn't really needed at my location.

Just want to enjoy a good hockey game in HD now. Wish I had a beer at hand. I could really use one!

Thanks to suggestions in an extensive note I received from WTHR's Al Grossniklaus, I'm actually watching the Olympic gold medal hockey match. Woo-hoo!!

I removed the CH-7777 pre-amp entirely from the system. And it not only restored my Ch. 13 signal strength to 4 bars. WISH is a solid 6.

Now that the cause of the difficulties has been isolated (the China Master pre-amp; my second after the first failed in its first year a bit over two years ago), I just have to figure how to re-hook the UHF feed. Any suggestions for combiners (is that what they're called?)

Thanks to everyone who has chimed in on this thread. I hope it was some fun and mental exercise for you. I learned a bit too -- including that a pre-amp isn't really needed at my location.

Just want to enjoy a good hockey game in HD now. Wish I had a beer at hand. I could really use one!There are several good weather-proof UHF-VHF Separator/Joiners with 75-ohm connectors, like the CM 0549. Each antenna should be aimed clearly and directly toward the transmitting tower, although they're spread out some for you, so aim for the one in the center of the arc. If you find you get higher signals when aimed off axis, it would indicate some blockage or reflector in the way, and you might want to try raising or lowering the receiving antenna heights, or shifting the post left or right, to avoid whatever is obscuring your reception path. Usually I have seen the UHF antenna mounted higher than the VHF antenna, like this post http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18212842#post18212842

What's the name of the thingamabob I'd need to combine the leads?
Duplexer or diplexer (some folks use the terms interchangeably). I just did a Google search, but most of what I saw are for diplexing a satellite signal on the same feedline as your OTA TV signal. That's not what you want. You need one that will pass VHF (54-216 MHz) on one port and UHF (470-698 MHz) on the other and the combine them out the third port.

The Channel Master CM-0549 will do what you want and I found it at several places on the web.

... Any suggestions for combiners (is that what they're called?)...

The Winegard CS-7750 has a UHF input and VHF input. Both inputs and the output are 75 ohm.
They're discontinued, but Winegard direct can apparently still supply them (albeit a little expensive).
http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem.asp?p=CS-7750&d=Winegard-CS7750-VHF-UHF-Band-Separator--Coupler--%28CS7750%29
The CC-7870 is the "replacement," and is basically a 75 ohm combiner for any old antenna. It doesn't look as good to me.
Good luck, and congratulations on your success.

Good luck, and congratulations on your success.

I owe it *all* to this forum and its members! So congratulate yourselves!:)

Very interesting to read, Mike. Thank you. I've I still have no idea why that could be, but your comment that pre-amps shouldn't be used for VHF makes me want to experiment with bypassing the pre-amp entirely with *both* the UHF and VHF feeds. But I don't know how to do that (does it require a 2nd long cable run? my run currently is ~130 feet) and then I'd still have to combine the coaxes into one connection at my tuner. What's the name of the thingamabob I'd need to combine the leads?

Use a VHF/UHF combiner. Channel Master sells them. Check their site on the web. My statement that pre-amps should not be used on VHF is because FM stations whether on the primary frequency or second harmonic generally overload the pre-amps. Many pre-amps have an FM trap and should always be used unless the antenna is actually being used for FM reception. Also make sure your using decent cable like RG-6.

Back in the old days people used pre-amps to improve the system noise figure. Improving the noise figure is the best way to receive more useful signal. Modern TVs and converter boxes have progressed to the point their tuners are made with very low noise front ends, therefore there is no improvement with a pre-amp. Generally the first active device a signal hits determines the sytem noise figure. If its a pre-amp it determines the noise figure if it's the tuner the first RF semiconductor in the tuner determines system noise.

The cabling is good RG-6. I may have screwed up crimping on a connector, but I've not noticed any general degradation of reception, just difficulty with that one channel (13). And as I think on it, the loss of that channel had been progressing the past few months.

After bypassing the pre-amp, that channel comes in fine. Now I need to hook the UHF antenna in, too. I've got a combiner on order, a Winegard CS 7870.

I appreciate your observations that a nearby FM signal can cause the a VHF signal to not decode and that a pre-amp can be overloaded by a nearby FM signal. The ~2.25 mile proximity of 104.9 (x2 = 209.8 MHz, only 200 kHz below Ch. 13) fits within both of those warnings

So, my pre-amp is now on the sidelines. I also thank you for putting the 'need' for pre-amps into historical perspective. Very helpful.

When I hook up the UHF/VHF combiner and get the rotator installed, I'll provide everyone an update on my situation. Thanks to all! I'd have been lost without you.

So, my pre-amp is now on the sidelines. I also thank you for putting the 'need' for pre-amps into historical perspective. Very helpful.

I'm glad you worked things out so that you are now able to receive WTHR. Many times reception, especially when getting close to the fringes, is all about trial and error. And it's all about location, location, location. Your proximity to the nearby FM signals is most likely the culprit for killing WTHR when using the pre-amp.

Meanwhile, I'm 3 miles from the WTHR tower and 5 - 5.5 miles from most of the other Indy towers used for TV and FM transmissions. As a DXer, I've experiemented with various antennas, pre-amps, no pre-amps, locations, heights, etc. for DTV reception since 2001. Using a pre-amp here does occasionally cause some overload if the antenna is aimed directly toward the towers, but my main finding has been that a good pre-amp does improve DTV signal strength, including VHF-hi channels (7-13). Even WLFI (RF 11), Lafayette, @ 40 miles (no line of sight signal), is improved with a pre-amp, which happens to be the Channel Master 7777. TV Fool website lists WLFI as a 2-edge station, while WIPB (RF 23), Muncie, @ 40 miles, is line of sight due to the station's taller tower and improved terrain conditions.

Using the Funke PSP-1922 VHF-hi antenna (13-ft. long) plus the CM 7777, I was able to DX over 15 DTV stations on channels 7-13 last year (and channels 9 and 13 don't count because of locals), including Mike's station, WOOD (RF 7), Grand Rapids. With the CM 7777 in use, a great tropo opening to the south also provided WCIQ (RF 7), Mount Cheaha, AL @ 446 miles and WSFA (RF 12), Birmingham, AL @ 550 miles in November.

In some applications pre-amps help and in others they can definitely hurt reception. There are so many variables involved from one location to antother that it is very difficult to make a blanket statement as to what will work and what won't work. It now appears you've found what works for you at your location.

Steve

Thanks, Steve.

Al at WTHR has emailed me some very good information and suggestions over the last two days. He has suggested that a pre-amp may still be advisable, but a lower-gain one than the CM-7777:

[INDENT] I agree with TV8 and the AVS group that using a high gain preamp in a moderate to strong signal environment generally causes more harm than good. But you do have some loss in your cable and connectors so I think some low gain amplification to overcome combiner/cable/connector loss can be helpful. As TV8 points out, if you do use an amp it needs to have a noise figure low enough to not offset the 15 dB signal to noise ratio your receiver needs. One relatively low gain amp is the Winegard HDP-269 12dB[INDENT]

Once I get the VHF/UHF combiner in place and the rotator installed, I'll be able to test reception from the Louisville stations. At that point, I should be able to figure out the need for a pre-amp.

Also, Al plotted my location vs. the Indy towers. To my surprise, the bearing I got a few years ago from that antenna web site was off -- I'd been pointing the antennas a few degrees W of N, but Al computed the Indy towers are 18 degrees W of N from me. :confused:!!! I will make that correction....

If your looking for an excellent dtv antenna (Antennacraft U4000) ($25+ shipping) solidsignal.com (comes with 3 ft. mast and transformer). This antenna works excellent in cincinnati area (sharonville, ohio) including wcpo9 vhf(10) and wkrc12 vhf(12). This antenna was referred to me by wcpo9 chief engineer who field tested this antenna 30 miles south of their cincinnati transmitter and it blew him away. This antenna is supposidly a uhf antenna but the way its cut it was receiving his station wcpo9 (vhf 10) and wkrc12 (vhf 12) with no problem (30 miles away) plus receiving dayton ohio uhf stations 70+ miles away. Since this is a uhf antenna it also should also cut down on interference from nearby fm transmitters. I put one on my house (15 miles north of cincinnati) (kings island area) with a rotor and receive most uhf indianapolis stations (ch. 6 and wipb) once the sun goes down (90+ miles away). Radio shack online also sells this antenna but its about $40 with free shipping. (Entertainment Book has a radio shack in store coupon for $10 off a purchase of $40 or more) which would drop the cost to around $30. Its worth a try.

No Thursday night NBC comedies for Aryq once again... I think I'm just gonna delete WTHR outta my MythTV box. More often than not we just end up having to watch our stuff on Hulu, anyway... Might as well open up a slot in the recording schedule for stuff on channels that actually DO come in... :)

*shrugs*

No Thursday night NBC comedies for Aryq once again... I think I'm just gonna delete WTHR outta my MythTV box. More often than not we just end up having to watch our stuff on Hulu, anyway... Might as well open up a slot in the recording schedule for stuff on channels that actually DO come in... :)

*shrugs*

Wow...you live in Indy and can't get 13...that's weird.
How close are you to the tower?
Perhaps they're too strong at your location.
Was reading that T Heller, a distance away, might be having FM radio harmonic problems w WTHR.
Do you have any radio towers near by?
Have you tried an FM trap?
I'm not real knowledgeable about this stuff...seems like a lot of trial & error is needed with DTV signals.

Good Luck,

if your looking for an excellent dtv antenna (antennacraft u4000) ($25+ shipping) solidsignal.com (comes with 3 ft. mast and transformer).


Thank you. I am now narrowing down my pursuit -- beginning to settle into the thought of simply using one antenna rather than tying two together. But I need to also pull in Ch. 9 (WISH-TV, CBS in Indianapolis) from the high VHF range. An antenna sensitive to Ch. 9 would likely also enable reception of Ch. 13 too, right?

(btw - a fellow at Warren Electronics suspects that combining my Winegard 1713 and Channel Master 4228 antennas may have been a factor in my Ch. 13 problem. Both antennas pulled in the Ch. 13 signal and when combined they may have presented the receiver too much of a challenge to successfully decode Ch. 13.)

An antenna sensitive to Ch. 9 would likely also enable reception of Ch. 13 too, right?
Yes.

Ch. 9 is 186 - 192 MHz
Ch. 13 is 210 - 216 MHz

The UHF channels are 470 - 698 MHz.

Both antennas pulled in the Ch. 13 signal and when combined they may have presented the receiver too much of a challenge to successfully decode Ch. 13.)
If the two signals were out of phase, that's entirely possible. Out of phase signals cancel each other out.

Yes.

Ch. 9 is 186 - 192 MHz
Ch. 13 is 210 - 216 MHz

The UHF channels are 470 - 698 MHz.


If the two signals were out of phase, that's entirely possible. Out of phase signals cancel each other out.

You would think that any preamplifier with separate UHF and VHF inputs would be designed to restrict out of band signals before or during the internal amplification circuits. If the UHF antenna contained VHF signals, they should not make it through the preamp to its combined output, and vice versa for the VHF antenna. From descriptions and the picture, I though the antennas were aimed off-axis as opposed to directly at the transmitting towers. Wouldn't that more likely cause pickup of direct and reflected signals, a.k.a. multipath, resulting in unreliable performance?

Wow...you live in Indy and can't get 13...that's weird.
How close are you to the tower?
Perhaps they're too strong at your location.
Was reading that T Heller, a distance away, might be having FM radio harmonic problems w WTHR.
Do you have any radio towers near by?
Have you tried an FM trap?
I'm not real knowledgeable about this stuff...seems like a lot of trial & error is needed with DTV signals.

Yeah DTV is it's own kind of voodoo, really... *laugh*... I guess I have not sacrificed enough chickens to the WTHR gods yet. Eh, I complain but I'm really not going to put any more effort in it to fix it, honestly. We watch very little NBC, and everything else in our OTA setup is virtually perfect now. I had a week or so when ION didn't come in for crap, but its fine now, and even 4.1 is fine (tho I mostly use 29.1 in its place -- except occasionally MythTV decides it wants to record something on 4.1 even though 29.1 has a higher priority... lol, who knows why).

If we watched more stuff on NBC, or if we weren't able to get the stuff we do watch on Hulu, I'd probably spend the time trying different things... but right now its just not worth it to me to spend a lot of time and/or money just to fix one lousy channel ;)

k, I'll stop complaining now ;)

From descriptions and the picture, I though the antennas were aimed off-axis as opposed to directly at the transmitting towers. Wouldn't that more likely cause pickup of direct and reflected signals, a.k.a. multipath, resulting in unreliable performance?

Good point -- and I hope to test that proposition this weekend when I put the rotator on. We'll see what happens when I aim in more accurately. Plus, I'll get an idea of reception from Bloomington and possibly Louisville, too.

Good luck!! You might also want to consider having the UHF antenna higher and the VHF one lower, because as VHF signals migrate outward they tend to bend with the curvature of the Earth where UHF signals diverge as they go out. Experience corroborates that here (75 miles from Chicago stations): UHF signals are more reliable when antenna is higher, VHF signals are still reliable with the antenna a couple feet lower.

WISH has filed for a fill-in translator on channel 17.

- Trip

Does this mean they (wish8) is going to ch.17. What is the difference between filing for a fill in translator and flash cutting to another channel?Example: wcpo9 is flash cutting from 10 to 22 this summer and wish8 filed for a fill in translator on channel 17?

Does this mean they (wish8) is going to ch.17. What is the difference between filing for a fill in translator and flash cutting to another channel?Example: wcpo9 is flash cutting from 10 to 22 this summer and wish8 filed for a fill in translator on channel 17?

Your terminology is a bit murky. Let me try to clarify things:

A flash-cut is converting from analog to digital on the same channel.

A fill-in translator is a transmission on another channel to "fill in" a hole in the coverage, in addition to a primary signal. This is what WISH is applying to do; light up a channel 17 signal in addition to the current channel 9.

What WCPO is doing is moving from channel 10 to 22. I don't think there's a special term for that. :)

- Trip

Trip - can you point to the application for the fill-in translator for WISH?

I'd like to learn where it will be located. I've learned Louisville's PBS station, WKPC, occupies Ch. 17, so the WISH fill-in may not be to the south of Indy. But it'd be nice to confirm its planned location.

Trip - can you point to the application for the fill-in translator for WISH?

I'd like to learn where it will be located. I've learned Louisville's PBS station, WKPC, occupies Ch. 17, so the WISH fill-in may not be to the south of Indy. But it'd be nice to confirm its planned location.

WYIN also broadcasts on channel 17. So WISH has to make sure their translator doesn't interfere with WYIN when it goes on the air.

Here is a map of WISH's LD 17 application at the FCC ...
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1354342.html

The tower is at 39-53-25.0 N 086-12-20.0 W ... the same tower as DT 9.
(7619 WALNUT DR, INDIANAPOLIS , IN)

Here's the contour map: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1354342.html

EDIT: justalurker beat me to it!

- Trip

You would think that any preamplifier with separate UHF and VHF inputs would be designed to restrict out of band signals before or during the internal amplification circuits.
You'd think that, but we are talking about consumer grade devices designed with retail price in mind.

You'd think that, but we are talking about consumer grade devices designed with retail price in mind.

Good point.

My efforts to isolate the problem point pretty strongly to the pre-amp as the culprit with my Ch. 13 problems, which had been growing progressively worse over the past several (~6) months. The pre-amp is now bypassed and on its way to the trash heap. In late '06, I had difficulty with an earlier one of the same make & model.

Here is a map of WISH's LD 17 application at the FCC ...
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1354342.html

The tower is at 39-53-25.0 N 086-12-20.0 W ... the same tower as DT 9.
(7619 WALNUT DR, INDIANAPOLIS , IN)


Thanks - it answers my question. I am outside its service contour.

The pre-amp is now bypassed and on its way to the trash heap. In late '06, I had difficulty with an earlier one of the same make & model.

Oh, man, I wish I were closer to you. I'd love to test your CM 7777 to see if it is bad or just not working for your installation. Those units are generally very dependable. I'm still using a Winegard UHF-only preamp I originally used back in the 1970's. It still works fine. I did have to replace a 7777 about two years ago when it got fried due to a power surge from a lightning strike.

You might consider trying the Winegard HDP-269 preamp as suggested by Al G. at WTHR. I've got one that I've used in various capacities and it seems to work quite well. Its gain is lower which might be more appropriate at your location with the nearby FM towers, but this unit's noise figure is a little higher than the CM 7777. This part might be an issue for you. When I've done some testing here at my house using the HDP-269 for analog VHF (prior to 6/12/09), I could sometimes hear audio from a couple local FM stations on select VHF channels. I didn't seem to notice this with the CM 7777. Just some thoughts.

Good luck with the rotor project today. I haven't checked reception conditions this morning, but yesterday morning WDRB-41 (RF 49) and WMYO-58 (RF 51), Louisville, were blasting in here. A quick mileage check between the Louisville antenna farm (Floyds Knob, IN) to downtown Columbus, indicates that you are approximately 58-59 miles from the Louisville towers while most of the Indy towers are right around 50 miles.

Steve

Oh, man, I wish I were closer to you. I'd love to test your CM 7777 to see if it is bad or just not working for your installation. Those units are generally very dependable.


Well, I haven't trashed the 7777 yet, Steve -- it's just removed from the transmission chain. (I'll keep it around; if you ever pass by these here parts, you're more than welcome to pick it up and test it; I just don't think it will work here.)

---
NEWS on the rotator install: sunny morning today helped a lot -- and I can report "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!".

I can pull in the Bloomington PBS station when I point it west and when I point it SSE, I get strong signals -7 or 8 bars- from Louisville CBS (WLKY-32 on 26), NBC (WAVE-3 on 47), FOX (WDRB-41 on 49) and a MNT station (WMYO-58 on 51). I get only a single bar (of ten) signal strength for ABC (WHAS-11 on 11), so that picture is barely decoding. The only Louisville station I can't pull in at all (yet) is PBS (WKPC-15 on 17).

This is using *only* the CM-4228 antenna, without any pre-amp (I've taken down my Winegard YA-1713). It adequately pulls in the only problematic Indy station, NBC (WTHR-13 on 13), registering 3-4 bars. The Louisville NBC (WAVE-3) can serve as a backup, since its signal is currently stronger (7 bars).

I'll need to put in a lower-gain pre-amp, as Al G suggested, in order to bring in ABC WHAS-11 (live coverage of the 500) and the Louisville PBS station, too. I may even reroute the coax to chop off maybe 40' or so. (In crawling around, searching for a pathway for the rotator's control cable, I found what might offer a shorter path for the coax.)

Now that I've removed the Winegard VHF antenna, I can't pull in WISH-8 on 9, so I'll have to decide whether I can live without Indy CBS. Since I can receive the Louisville CBS affiliate, I may just stay with my present setup and not hook up another antenna. I'm actually getting a far stronger signal on CBS from Louisville (8 bars) than from Indy's WISH (only 4 bars). That may be because of reduced multi-path; the Indy towers are *beyond* downtown from me, 50 miles south. Maybe the Louisville weather gal is hotter. :D

But for now, I'm in seventh heaven and taking a rest!! Thanks for all the helpful suggestions. I couldn't have done it without everybody's help. Really.

Tom
Here's something I mentioned in a previous post regarding your future purchase of a rotor.
"I'll bet you'll really enjoy a rotor. I think WTIU in Bloomington will be easy, and I'll also bet you do well with Louisville."
TADA!

ROFLMAO!! "blind sow" indeed!

Yeah DTV is it's own kind of voodoo, ......

k, I'll stop complaining now ;)

No problem, sometimes......Ya-just-got-a-vent :)

There's times, when I feel your pain.

Qualcomm's notified the FCC that they're lighting up another channel 55 transmitter, this time in Anderson.

- Trip

Qualcomm's notified the FCC that they're lighting up another channel 55 transmitter, this time in Anderson.

- Trip

Thanks for the scouting report, Trip. I visited a local Radio Shack and asked if they'd sold any FLO-TV units. The gal said one person was prepared to buy, but wanted it set up (registered/authenticated with the network) before he left the store, but there it couldn't receive the signal. So, no sale.

I think I've seen a couple of TV commercials for it, though -- including one late in the Superbowl.

Well, I haven't trashed the 7777 yet, Steve -- it's just removed from the transmission chain. (I'll keep it around; if you ever pass by these here parts, you're more than welcome to pick it up and test it; I just don't think it will work here.)

---
NEWS on the rotator install: sunny morning today helped a lot -- and I can report "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!".

I can pull in the Bloomington PBS station when I point it west and when I point it SSE, I get strong signals -7 or 8 bars- from Louisville CBS (WLKY-32 on 26), NBC (WAVE-3 on 47), FOX (WDRB-41 on 49) and a MNT station (WMYO-58 on 51). I get only a single bar (of ten) signal strength for ABC (WHAS-11 on 11), so that picture is barely decoding. The only Louisville station I can't pull in at all (yet) is PBS (WKPC-15 on 17).

Thanks for not trashing the 7777. I'll let you know when I might be down your direction. :-)

How has your reception of Bloomington (WTIU) and the Louisville stations been since Saturday? And have you tried or received any stations from Cincinnati, like WLWT-5 (RF 35), WCET-48 (RF 34), WCPO-9 (RF 10, but approved to move to 22) or WKRC-12 (RF 12)? Just curious.............Thanks.

Thanks for not trashing the 7777. I'll let you know when I might be down your direction. :-)

How has your reception of Bloomington (WTIU) and the Louisville stations been since Saturday? And have you tried or received any stations from Cincinnati, like WLWT-5 (RF 35), WCET-48 (RF 34), WCPO-9 (RF 10, but approved to move to 22) or WKRC-12 (RF 12)? Just curious.............Thanks.


In a word: great!

Bloomington's WTIU-30 is excellent at 8-10 bars. See below for Louisville and Indy signals since I added the rotator and changed the pre-amp.

Haven't pointed it at Cincy yet. Let me do that now (5 PM Wednesday, overcast skies with forecast of rain). Pointing the antenna to E (90 degrees).

No signal on any of those. Darn! You got me excited for nothing! Maybe weather conditions will enable me to pick something up from time to time, but I doubt any Cincy station will make it on my 'favorites' list! But I shouldn't be surprised, it looks like Cincy's over 100 miles away (OOOPS, MAKE THAT OVER 100 KM), almost twice as far as Louisville and Indy (WELL, MORE LIKE ABOUT 30% FURTHER THAN TO FLOYD'S KNOB/LOUISVILLE TOWERS.)


My setup is now a single CM 4228 antenna at about 40' above ground on a CM 9521A rotator hooked to a Winegard HDP269 pre-amp, with about a 120' RG6 cable run to the Samsung DTB-H260 digital set-top tuner and to my trusty, HD-ready 23" Zenith Z23LZ5R. OK, OK, I hear the guffaws and sneezes out there, but it quite well fits the space I have for it and doesn't dominate the room.)

If all continues to go well with my Louisville reception, especially of WHAS-11 (ABC, for the live 500) and with Indy's WISH, I will not face a compelling need to restore my Winegard YA-1713 to the mast.

Signal strength for Louisville's WHAS (RF 11) has exhibited 3-4 bars (it's at 5 right now) and was a solid 4 bars for Oscar night. Indy's WISH (RF 9) has improved over the one-antenna setup before putting in the Winegard pre-amp -- the CM 4228 pulls in a pretty solid 3. (Couldn't get anything with only the 4228 without the pre-amp.)

The other Louisville stations (WAVE-3, WLKY-32, WDRB-41, and WMYO-58 all register at least 8 bars. The weakest Indy station is WISH-8 at ~3, WTHR-13 ~7 (this however is much, much better than I was suffering with my 2 antenna , CM-7777 pre-amp setup that lead me to initiate all my recent effort) and WNDY ~7 bars. WTRV-6, WFYI-20, WXIN-59 are all 10's as is ION and THIS. I was even able to pull in the Indy Music Station, Ch. 19, for the first time ever at ~3 bars.

It's fun to watch some Indy stations (Ch. 6 most notably) while the antenna is pointed toward Louisville. I'd long ago read that the 4228's performance is pretty good also on its backside, and now I believe it! Now I know what people mean when they say an antenna "locks-in" a signal! Fascinating science, this!

Hope this answers your questions, Steve.

In a word: great!

Bloomington's WTIU-30 is excellent at 8-10 bars. See below for Louisville and Indy signals since I added the rotator and changed the pre-amp.

Haven't pointed it at Cincy yet. Let me do that now (5 PM Wednesday, overcast skies with forecast of rain). Pointing the antenna to E (90 degrees).

No signal on any of those. Darn! You got me excited for nothing! Maybe weather conditions will enable me to pick something up from time to time, but I doubt any Cincy station will make it on my 'favorites' list! But I shouldn't be surprised, it looks like Cincy's over 100 miles away, almost twice as far as Louisville and Indy.


My setup is now a single CM 4228 antenna at about 40' above ground on a CM 9521A rotator hooked to a Winegard HDP269 pre-amp, with about a 120' RG6 cable run to the Samsung DTB-H260 digital set-top tuner and to my trusty, HD-ready 23" Zenith Z23LZ5R. OK, OK, I hear the guffaws and sneezes out there, but it quite well fits the space I have for it and doesn't dominate the room.)

If all continues to go well with my Louisville reception, especially of WHAS-11 (ABC, for the live 500) and with Indy's WISH, I will not face a compelling need to restore my Winegard YA-1713 to the mast.

Signal strength for Louisville's WHAS (RF 11) has exhibited 3-4 bars (it's at 5 right now) and was a solid 4 bars for Oscar night. Indy's WISH (RF 9) has improved over the one-antenna setup before putting in the Winegard pre-amp -- the CM 4228 pulls in a pretty solid 3. (Couldn't get anything with only the 4228 without the pre-amp.)

The other Louisville stations (WAVE-3, WLKY-32, WDRB-41, and WMYO-58 all register at least 8 bars. The weakest Indy station is WISH-8 at ~3, WTHR-13 ~7 (this however is much, much better than I was suffering with my 2 antenna , CM-7777 pre-amp setup that lead me to initiate all my recent effort) and WNDY ~7 bars. WTRV-6, WFYI-20, WXIN-59 are all 10's as is ION and THIS. I was even able to pull in the Indy Music Station, Ch. 19, for the first time ever at ~3 bars.

It's fun to watch some Indy stations (Ch. 6 most notably) while the antenna is pointed toward Louisville. I'd long ago read that the 4228's performance is pretty good also on its backside, and now I believe it! Now I know what people mean when they say an antenna "locks-in" a signal! Fascinating science, this!

Hope this answers your questions, Steve.
I wonder how spring vegetation will affect your reception? (Pesky trees always seem to sprout leaves every Spring.)

In a word: great!

Bloomington's WTIU-30 is excellent at 8-10 bars. See below for Louisville and Indy signals since I added the rotator and changed the pre-amp.

Great to hear that your reception has improved with the HDP269 and I'm glad you're receiving all of them so well. Thanks for the feedback.

BTW, WDNI-CD 19, Indy's Music Channel (IMC), is transmitting with virtually the same ERP (effective radiated power) that WISH-LD 17 will have, if/when approved by the FCC. These low power digitals are allowed up to 15 kW, but both WDNI and WISH are/will operate with directional antennas. WDNI is currently sending approximately 6.7 kW to the south towards Columbus from a tower at Emerson Av. & I-70, just east of downtown. Pretty good reception in Columbus with that kind of power on UHF. If and when WISH-LD gets on the air, it willl be sending virtually the same power in your direction.

George's comment regarding tree leaves might be a valid point in your location, although I DX a number of very weak signals from a fairly wooded neighborhood. Time will tell more within a month or so.

George's comment regarding tree leaves might be a valid point in your location, although I DX a number of very weak signals from a fairly wooded neighborhood. Time will tell more within a month or so.

I'll keep my fingers crossed....

Steve- In my reply to your query about reception of Cincinnati, I was mistaken on the distance I reported. Cincy's a lot closer, but still about 10% further away than Louisville's towers on Floyd's Knob. I hadn't noticed the distance I dialed in with Lat/Lon was in km, not miles. D'oh!

I'll keep trying with Cincy, but my hopes aren't very high....

=========
UPDATE: A few hours later (after rain front passes), I was finally able to pull in a couple Cincy stations, but the signal was weak. I got WLWT (2-3 bars of 10) and WCET (1-2 bars). Nothing for WCPO or WKRC.

I forwarded your email to an engineer at WXIN and just a few minutes ago I received a reply that all is fine at the transmitter site. In fact, he was at the site earlier today to check on the equipment. He mentioned that when he looked up, he could not see the antenna at the top of the tower due to heavy fog. We still have some fog and a very, very light mist in the area. Could just be weather-related reception issue today, since you normally do receive WXIN. This is about the worst weather possible for signal propagation.

Steve

I had been getting WXIN until 6:00 this morning. I have been unable to get WXIN, but did get WTTK in the Southwest side of Marion.

Due to my apartment lease I am not able to raise my Radioshack 57 element Antenna over 40 feet, which I have been using since October 2008 during the WISH-TV Bright House Dispute. I don't need to check AntennaWeb.org, because I know Marion (in Grant County, IN) can still receive Indianapolis AND Fort Wayne TV the last time I checked.

Unfortunately for me I missed their 4PM newscast along with God knows what else.

You could be right about the weather. Maybe they ought to boost their power.

Problem is now worse (all Indy stations except WNDY are trouble free), due heavy rain.

In a very sad and ironic twist, a few weeks ago, my domestic partner was fixing an outdoor antenna in Van Buren, slipped and fell 33 feet from the tower. Luckily, she is okay.

I hate to ask a dumb question but I'm going to. I live in Brownsburg and have always had Comcast. I done with what they charge PERIOD! I know nothing about satellite TV! I have looked at the packages and I'm leaning towards Dish Network BUT I want to know what everyone in the indy area thinks is the way to go? Should I go with Dish or Directv?

PQ is most important
$$ is second
Equipment is third
Features is fourth

So which one is it Dish Network or DirectV? Thanks in advance to all that reply!!!!

I'm over on the west side of the state (near Vincennes) but I went with Dish. DirectTV didn't have our locals. Just be sure you have a clear view to the southwest. We sit on a hill, but there is a tall ash tree to our southwest. Although its base is 60 feet below the level of our first floor, the Dish guy had trouble getting reception signals when putting on a pole in the ground. So we put it on the hip rafter of the roof about 8 feet higher and managed to get all kinds of signal, better than he'd seen in the area. I guess because we sit on a hill; but if that ash tree grows 8 feet in a couple of years we'll be in trouble (the emerald leaf borer will probably get it before then).

We get the Terre Haute locals off Dish (although I can get most of them off of antenna at 100% signal strength). ABC isn't in the Terre Haute locals so we had to buy them - though not through Dish, another service, but it comes via the Dish satellite.

Having the Dish-locals and locals off of the air/antenna allows one to record two HD programs on the Dish DVR using its satellite HD receiver and off-air antenna receiver (and watch a third HD program off-air/antenna on a TV or other digital receiver). Otherwise you can only record just one HD program and record or watch another SD program at that same time via the Dish receivers (the ViP722 has one HD and one SD satellite receiver). So if you can put up an antenna that might pull in one or two of your major broadcast stations, you'll be doing yourself a big favor.

Should I go with Dish or Directv?

PQ is most important
$$ is second
Equipment is third
Features is fourth

You realize that you may spark a Ford vs. Chevy debate, don't you. ;) Both systems have their fans.

I live in Brownsburg and have DirecTV. I think the HD picture quality is outstanding. I have a 52" 1080p LCD and I'm often amazed by the detail and clarity in the picture.

DirecTV's DVR equipment can be a bit quirky, but they have recently announced a new DVR, the HR24, that has a faster processor. And DirecTV updates the software a few times a year to address issues and add features. DirecTV recently launched another satellite which is expected to come on-line in April or May and that should bring us more HD channels.

DirecTV is currently running a public beta test of Multi-Room Viewing. This means you can watch programs you've DVR'd on any other receiver in the house. MRV works over your home network. It works fine on my wired network, but I've heard negative reports from people trying to use it over wireless. DirecTV is also beta testing a system that will allow the DVRs in your house to network over the same cable that carries the satellite signal and that's supposed to make MRV pretty reliable.

The real issue is one you didn't mention. Dish and DirecTV do not have the same channel line-ups, so you really need to compare to make sure you can get what you want. DirecTV in our area has most of the local network affiliates (ABC, CBS, CW, Fox, NBC, and PBS) in HD. DirecTV focuses on sports programming and has several packages of sports channels. However, DirecTV does not currently carry Versus, so if you are an IRL or NHL fan, that's something to consider. With the new satellite coming on-line, the channel line-up is likely to change, so you may want to wait a couple of months to make your final decision.

As Lij mentioned, with either satellite company, you must have a clear view of the southwest sky. No trees or nearby buildings.

You also need to consider wiring issues. You may be able to use your existing cable TV wiring or you may not. DirecTV requires RG-6 coax with solid copper center conductor and most newer houses have been wired with copper-covered steel center conductor because it's cheaper. You may be able to get away with the cheaper coax, but DirecTV will probably not support it.

When you compare price, make sure you are comparing apples and apples. Make sure the programming packages are similar and the equipment capabilities match up. And watch out for the add-on charges. With either company, they can start to add up.

<<< DirecTV requires RG-6 coax with solid copper center conductor and most newer houses have been wired with copper-covered steel center conductor because it's cheaper. You may be able to get away with the cheaper coax, but DirecTV will probably not support it. >>>

My son lives in the house I built. He had DirectTV install an HDTV capable dish, and they were more than happy to use the old copper clad RG-6 I had installed previously. I had used good compression fittings. There are four televisions involved, so it would have been a big job to replace all the old copper clad RG-6.
Since we put a couple of bags of Sackrete around the dish base, he has had perfect (above 90) readings on every satellite with perfect reception. Prior to that, he had all kinds of issues.
I wonder if a solid copper conductor might help when a dish isn't able to "see" the satellites perfectly.
I am not disputing what DISH requires, just wondering if a solid conductor is really necessary. It ain't cheap.

I'm in Olney, IL 52 miles from the terre haute transmitters
the tower of our antenna will be on is 55 feet high
please recommend an antenna and pre-amp

here's my info from tvfool
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3db7c84d06f9f3eb

we want the stations in yellow at 46degrees

I won't deny that copper clad may work in some installations. However, the installers in the DBS-Talk.com forums say that use of copper clad RG-6 will sometimes cause an installation to fail a QC check. The issue is the fact that DirecTV uses different supply voltages from the receiver to the dish to switch the polarity of the LNB and the greater resistance of copper clad may lower the voltage over long runs.

With the Single Wire Multi-switch now in general use on multiple HD DVR installations, I think copper clad may be less of an issue since the SWM's power inserter provides the voltage, not the receiver. Consequently, as long as solid copper is used from the power inserter to the dish, copper clad may work just fine for the rest of the installation.

However, DirecTV does not currently carry Versus, so if you are an IRL or NHL fan, that's something to consider.
Versus is now back on DirecTV in HD (Ch. 603).

I won't deny that copper clad may work in some installations. However, the installers in the DBS-Talk.com forums say that use of copper clad RG-6 will sometimes cause an installation to fail a QC check. The issue is the fact that DirecTV uses different supply voltages from the receiver to the dish to switch the polarity of the LNB and the greater resistance of copper clad may lower the voltage over long runs.

With the Single Wire Multi-switch now in general use on multiple HD DVR installations, I think copper clad may be less of an issue since the SWM's power inserter provides the voltage, not the receiver. Consequently, as long as solid copper is used from the power inserter to the dish, copper clad may work just fine for the rest of the installation.

I'm not sure how my son's DirecTVs are set up. I'm inclined to think that there is no power inserter, but I'll look into it. What you've said makes perfect sense. I'm a little surprised DirecTV would not have thought about the expense of solid copper wire involved in installations and designed accordingly.

I hate to ask a dumb question but I'm going to. I live in Brownsburg and have always had Comcast. I done with what they charge PERIOD! I know nothing about satellite TV! I have looked at the packages and I'm leaning towards Dish Network BUT I want to know what everyone in the indy area thinks is the way to go? Should I go with Dish or Directv?

PQ is most important
$$ is second
Equipment is third
Features is fourth

So which one is it Dish Network or DirectV? Thanks in advance to all that reply!!!!

Dish fan here. The PQ on my 67" DLP is excellent - as good as DirecTV and better than what I've seen on Comcast lately, and the HD channel lineup is better than everything available around here except Uverse (which has PQ issues).

The best part about Dish, however, is their DVR hardware. It's right up there with TiVO (better, in my opinion - widescreen 16x9 3 hour guide, picture-in-picture, very fast response time/no lags, record 4 HD channels at once (2 OTA + 2 satellite), USB external hard drive support for creating a library of shows/movies, and a really nice iPhone app for remote scheduling.

From what I know of DirecTV, its strengths are deeper sports programming (for significant extra cost), and a nicer video on-demand system than Dish.

Dish fan here. The PQ on my 67" DLP is excellent - as good as DirecTV and better than what I've seen on Comcast lately, and the HD channel lineup is better than everything available around here except Uverse (which has PQ issues).

The best part about Dish, however, is their DVR hardware. It's right up there with TiVO (better, in my opinion - widescreen 16x9 3 hour guide, picture-in-picture, very fast response time/no lags, record 4 HD channels at once (2 OTA + 2 satellite), USB external hard drive support for creating a library of shows/movies, and a really nice iPhone app for remote scheduling.

From what I know of DirecTV, its strengths are deeper sports programming (for significant extra cost), and a nicer video on-demand system than Dish.

Thanks IndyJeff for some input on DISH. I'm leaning toward Dish because of all the advantages of the DVR. I have Comcast and the DVR is very lagging and annoying and if Directv's DVR is the same as it sounds like it might. Then I wan't no part of it.

Thanks IndyJeff for some input on DISH. I'm leaning toward Dish because of all the advantages of the DVR. I have Comcast and the DVR is very lagging and annoying and if Directv's DVR is the same as it sounds like it might. Then I wan't no part of it.

Well, nothing is as bad as the Comcast DVR. I had one for a few years before I gave up on Comcast as well, and it's just ridiculous that they charge for that piece of junk.

The DirecTV DVR isn't nearly as bad as the Comcast box (nothing is), and it does have some nice features, but it's somewhat slow.

I'm in Olney, IL 52 miles from the terre haute transmitters
the tower of our antenna will be on is 55 feet high
please recommend an antenna and pre-amp

here's my info from tvfool
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3db7c84d06f9f3eb

we want the stations in yellow at 46degrees

Since I'm not familiar with the reception variables in your area, I really don't like making specific recommendations, but here are a few suggestions. Per TVfool, your distance from the Terre Haute towers is beyond line of sight and is listed as 2 edge, so it's great that you'll be able to get the antenna around 55 ft. above ground level.

For UHF (WTWO and WFXW) you might consider the Antennas Direct DB8 or the Channel Master 4228HD.
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=DB8&d=Antennas-Direct-DB8-UHF-HDTV-TV-Antenna-(DB8)&c=TV Antennas&sku=853748001088

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=4228-HD&d=Channel-Master-4228HD-8bay-HDTVUHF-TV-Antenna-(4228HD)&c=TV Antennas&sku=

These two antennas were recently updated to supposedly make them more friendly at receiving VHF-high channels (7-13) which you'll need for receiving WTHI, since it transmits on channel 10. But reviews seem to be pro and con as to whether either one is really very good for distant VHF reception. Some testing and reviews are available here. See "Antenna Comparisons."
http://www.antennahacks.com/ and here http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

The Antennas Direct DB8, Channel Master 4228HD and Antennas Direct XG91 (sometimes listed 91XG) http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=91XG&d=Antennas-Direct-91XG-UHF-TV-Antenna-(91XG)&c=TV Antennas&sku=853748001910 provide some of the highest gain around channel 36 (WTWO) and channel 39 (WFXW). I personally like the XG91 for UHF but it will not provide good VHF reception for WTHI, so a separate VHF antenna would be needed. For this I might suggest the Antennacraft Y10-7-13
http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=Y10-7-13&d=Antennacraft-Y10713-HighbandBroadband-VHF-TV-Antenna--(Y10713)&c=TV Antennas&sku=

or the Winegard YA 1713 http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=YA1713&d=Winegard-YA-1713-Prostar-1000-10-El.-HiBand-VHF-TV-Antenna-(YA1713)&c=TV Antennas&sku=615798304867

If you don't have any nearby TV or FM radio transmitters, the Channel Master 7777 might work well. If you do live near TV or FM transmitters, the Winegard HDP-269 might be a better choice. See the T Heller comments above relating to these pre-amps.

I hope this gives you a start and some things to review before you purchase.

Steve

oThe down side to the CM4228HD is that Channel 10 in Terre Haute is still currently broadcasting on 10.1 Vhf and you will need a Vhf/Uhf antenna for it. I have a request into their operations manager to see if they are going to transistion back to uhf or not. I recently purchased and installed a CM3679. I live 10 miles South of Terre Haute and am picking up 15-1 from Champaign with no issues. I currently have the antenna about 25 feet up and as soon as I can locate a bucket truck will mount it at 50 on a rotor and will be attempting to use a Winegard AP8800 Pre-Amp. The down side for this is that I am 3 miles north of the 3 transmitters for 2, 10, & 38. At 50 I have learned that when I fall from towers I do not heal as fast as I did when I was younger....

So with that if you are wanting CBS from Terre Haute for now you will need a VHF/UHF combo antenna. The one I purchased would be a good choice for up to 100 miles away from your home....for longer distances you might want to consider the CM3671. Both are Log Periodic Antennas and will offer an even gain across the different channels.

Winegard are also wonderful antennas but I personally prefer Channel Master.

oThe down side to the CM4228HD is that Channel 10 in Terre Haute is still currently broadcasting on 10.1 Vhf and you will need a Vhf/Uhf antenna for it.

So with that if you are wanting CBS from Terre Haute for now you will need a VHF/UHF combo antenna.


I'm not sure that's entirely correct. I'm receiving two high-VHF channels with my four-year old CM-4228 antenna: WISH-TV 8 (RF 9) from Indy (50 miles) and WHAS-11 (RF 11) from Louisville (55 miles if I recall correctly).

The 4228 has sensitivity beyond the bounds of the UHF range -- and it's backside enjoys substantial sensitivity, too. It can pull in some Indy channels when it's pointed to Louisville, so sometimes I don't have to rely upon the rotator.

11 new high-definition Cinemax and Showtime channels will be added to Bright House Networks’ Premium HD Tier lineup. These channels will be available to the company’s central Indiana digital customers that subscribe to the Premium Tier at no additional cost:

Cinemax MoreMAX HD: Channel No. 229; Cinemax ActionMAX HD: Channel No. 230; Cinemax ThrillerMAX HD: Channel No. 231; Cinemax OuterMAX HD: Channel No. 232; Cinemax @MAX HD: Channel No. 233; Cinemax 5StarMAX HD: Channel No. 234; Cinemax WMAX HD: Channel No. 235; Showtime Too HD: Channel No. 250; Showtime Showcase HD: Channel No. 251; Showtime Extreme HD: Channel No. 252; and Showtime HD ON Demand: Channel No. 238.

Bright House Networks is also adding WIPX (ION HD) to its Free HD Tier on Channel 703 available at no additional cost to Digital TV subscribers in the Indianapolis area and is dropping the price of accessing high-definition movies using its HD Movies On Demand service

11 new high-definition Cinemax and Showtime channels will be added to Bright House Networks’ Premium HD Tier lineup. These channels will be available to the company’s central Indiana digital customers that subscribe to the Premium Tier at no additional cost:

Cinemax MoreMAX HD: Channel No. 229; Cinemax ActionMAX HD: Channel No. 230; Cinemax ThrillerMAX HD: Channel No. 231; Cinemax OuterMAX HD: Channel No. 232; Cinemax @MAX HD: Channel No. 233; Cinemax 5StarMAX HD: Channel No. 234; Cinemax WMAX HD: Channel No. 235; Showtime Too HD: Channel No. 250; Showtime Showcase HD: Channel No. 251; Showtime Extreme HD: Channel No. 252; and Showtime HD ON Demand: Channel No. 238.

Bright House Networks is also adding WIPX (ION HD) to its Free HD Tier on Channel 703 available at no additional cost to Digital TV subscribers in the Indianapolis area and is dropping the price of accessing high-definition movies using its HD Movies On Demand serviceWhen is this supposed to show up? I am not seeing it yet. Is this effective May 1st or immediately?

I'm on the Carmel Bright House system and I just checked to see what is available. At the moment I'm seeing Cinemax MoreMAX HD: Channel No. 229; Cinemax ActionMAX HD: Channel No. 230; Showtime HD ON Demand: Channel No. 238 and WIPX (ION HD) on Channel 703. Maybe these new channels are being added in stages.

I should have been more specific. Are you able to pick up 703 in the "clear"? I don't see it yet. We watch ION every night to watch family feud in the kitchen which has an ATSC QAM tuner. I did a new scan and didn't find it. Did the same with my HDHomerun and it didn't pick it up either. I do see it on my cable box though.

When is this supposed to show up? I am not seeing it yet. Is this effective May 1st or immediately?

5 of the 11 HD channels should be available the week of May 12.

Hello all! Been a while since I have looked around here.

WTHR moved back to the top of the VHF band again, correct? Reason I ask is that several people in the Rossville vicinity have asked me lately why the can't pick up WTHR any longer even after rescanning. If, in fact, it is back on channel 13, I will assume that their pre-amps or tuners are being swamped by WLFI (3 air miles away) on VHF high band also? I have not heard complaints about WISH, so that kinda muddies the water?

Any input would be appreciated.

Hello all! Been a while since I have looked around here.

WTHR moved back to the top of the VHF band again, correct? Reason I ask is that several people in the Rossville vicinity have asked me lately why the can't pick up WTHR any longer even after rescanning. If, in fact, it is back on channel 13, I will assume that their pre-amps or tuners are being swamped by WLFI (3 air miles away) on VHF high band also? I have not heard complaints about WISH, so that kinda muddies the water?

Any input would be appreciated.

You are correct. WTHR moved from RF channel 46 to channel 13 in June last year. The station's signal easily matches that of WISH in Kokomo, which is quite strong. With your proximity to the WLFI tower, that could cause an overload issue with some preamps. In some cases, a preamp at that distance from the Indy towers most likely wouldn't be necessary. I do have a preamp on my VHF antenna (for DXing purposes) and I'm just 3 miles from the WTHR tower. No overload issues with the station. In fact, by rotating the antenna to a couple azimuth locations, I can even cut their signal down so much that none of my DTV receivers will decode it.

Steve

So strange. Live SW of the airport and just recently hooked up my Insignia DTV receiver/converter that's been sitting unused for many months. Splitter in the crawl space to it and Dish 622 in the AV room. With the rooftop antenna still aimed toward the "farm" I now get Terre Haute 10 on the Insignia but not (and never have) with the Dish box. Is this a sensitivity issue? The cheap Insignia device seems to work better than the Dish box at receiving local OTA signals.

I live in an apt on the south side I was hoping t be able to ditch cable. I bought an indoor antena. My p,asthma has a built in tuner. I get 20 plus channels but not WISH. I've tried many different positions, but still nothing. Anyone have any ideas?

I live in an apt on the south side I was hoping t be able to ditch cable. I bought an indoor antena. My p,asthma has a built in tuner. I get 20 plus channels but not WISH. I've tried many different positions, but still nothing. Anyone have any ideas?

Do, or anyone else know if WISH turned on their translator on channel 17? You might wanna see if you can get that if the translator is on. Many Hi-VHF (and occasional Lo-VHF) stations are having to rely on UHF translators to reach viewers within major cities. Most suburban viewers with outdoor antennas will usually have an easier time getting VHF stations than those who live within densely populated areas with tall buildings (such as in & near the downtown areas), where VHF seems to have a difficult time reaching viewers. Chicago is a market where VHF (and some UHF stations as well) doesn't work well with the canyon effect of all the skyscrapers. I don't know how that works with Indianapolis since most stations don't transmit from the downtown area like it does in Chicago.

Do, or anyone else know if WISH turned on their translator on channel 17? You might wanna see if you can get that if the translator is on. Many Hi-VHF (and occasional Lo-VHF) stations are having to rely on UHF translators to reach viewers within major cities. Most suburban viewers with outdoor antennas will usually have an easier time getting VHF stations than those who live within densely populated areas with tall buildings (such as in & near the downtown areas), where VHF seems to have a difficult time reaching viewers. Chicago is a market where VHF (and some UHF stations as well) doesn't work well with the canyon effect of all the skyscrapers. I don't know how that works with Indianapolis since most stations don't transmit from the downtown area like it does in Chicago.

Dave73, the application from WISH-TV (LIN TV) to the FCC to turn on a low-power digital on channel 17 is still just an application. Per the FCC website, the FCC has not yet acted on the request.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=39269

If and when this station gets on the air, per the application, areas southeast, south and southwest of their tower will get less than the full 15 kW power limit. This station will operate with a directional antenna as it will have to protect the coverage area of full-power WKPC-DT (RF ch. 17), Louisville. Local low-power digital WDNI-CD (RF channel 19), transmitting from a tower east of downtown Indy, has a very similar directional antenna pattern with its 15 kW signal.

Steve

I live in an apt on the south side I was hoping t be able to ditch cable. I bought an indoor antena. My p,asthma has a built in tuner. I get 20 plus channels but not WISH. I've tried many different positions, but still nothing. Anyone have any ideas?

I don't know what kind of indoor antenna you are using, but my first thought is that WISH, on RF channel 9, is the lowest channel on the dial that you are not receiving. The lower the channel, or frequency, the longer the wavelength of the actual signal. This means the length of the elements on the receiving antenna need to be longer than that for higher VHF channels, like WTHR on ch. 13, or any of the other local DTVs on UHF channels. This may or may not be your culprit, but simply pointing it out.

All terrestrial signals can have hot and cold spots, just like a cell phone. Try moving your antenna a few feet, or even a few inches (up, down, left, right) and see if you can find a hot spot. With an indoor antenna, virtually everything within your apartment can become an obstacle for the signal to reach your antenna, or the signal can bounce or reflect off of walls, metal panels, etc.

Or, it could simply be, for whatever reason, the built-in tuner in your HDTV is not as good at decoding the weaker signal from the indoor antenna. As GLBright posted just above, his cheap Insignia CECB box can decode WTHI-DT (RF ch. 10), Terre Haute, while his Dish receiver cannot. I've seen this in side-by-side tests between DTV receivers. Not all DTV tuners/receivers are the same at decoding.

If you are using an indoor antenna with a built-in amplifier, the signal could be too strong. Or another issue with some digital receivers is multipath. This is when the true signal mixes with signals that are slightly delayed from bouncing off of nearby objects, thus confusing the receiver.

Without seeing your exact setup, it's difficult to completely diagnose your problem. Hope something here helps.

Steve

WTHR moved back to the top of the VHF band again, correct? Reason I ask is that several people in the Rossville vicinity have asked me lately why the can't pick up WTHR any longer even after rescanning. If, in fact, it is back on channel 13, I will assume that their pre-amps or tuners are being swamped by WLFI (3 air miles away) on VHF high band also? I have not heard complaints about WISH, so that kinda muddies the water?

Any input would be appreciated.

Al Grossniklaus, CE at WTHR, read your post and my response. He sent this reply and asked that I share it with you and others here at AVS Forum.

............................................................ .............
Steve,

Saw the AVS post regarding reception of WTHR in Rossville from MobileMusicKP and have some info that may be of use to him:

Because of the strong channel 11 RF field, reception of WTHR on channel 13 near WLFI’s Rossville tower has been a known issue ever since WLFI signed on channel 11 DTV back on 5/23/2002, especially for viewers just north of the WLFI tower using a preamp and whose antennas point “through” the WLFI tower to WTHR. Early on, this affected reception of WTHR analog 13 there to the point that WLFI was providing help to Rossville viewers after their channel 11 sign on – so no doubt it can also affect reception of DTV 13 within a couple of miles of the WLFI tower. This can be a simple preamp overload problem or can be a signal image issue from channel 11 to 13, depending on the exact location and antenna/preamp setup. For viewers in this situation near the WLFI tower, there are several things that can solve the problem. Steve is right that a preamp can be swamped in the high channel 11 RF field so the simplest thing to try is to get rid of the preamp or use a lower gain preamp in combination with a higher gain antenna. This alone solved the problem for a number of such viewers – and with a good gain antenna you often don’t need a preamp to receive Indy stations. Another thing that can work is to put a channel 11 notch filter or trap at the antenna output (ahead of any preamp, if used). Within a couple of miles of the WLFI tower there will still be plenty of channel 11 signal getting through the trap for the viewer to receive WLFI but it will be knocked down enough to get rid of any channel 11 to 13 interaction. And one other trick that works is to reorient your antenna for more vertical polarity. WTHR 13’s signal is circularly polarized so has a strong vertical component while WFLI’s signal is horizontally polarized. Using more vertical antenna polarity takes advantage of this by lessening pickup of WLFI’s horizontal signal while WTHR’s circular signal remains good. We’ve conducted DTV signal measurement and reception tests near the WLFI tower and have achieved good reception of WTHR DTV 13 using these techniques.

Al Grossniklaus

Director of Engineering and Operations

WTHR NBC

I don't know what kind of indoor antenna you are using, but my first thought is that WISH, on RF channel 9, is the lowest channel on the dial that you are not receiving. The lower the channel, or frequency, the longer the wavelength of the actual signal. This means the length of the elements on the receiving antenna need to be longer than that for higher VHF channels, like WTHR on ch. 13, or any of the other local DTVs on UHF channels. This may or may not be your culprit, but simply pointing it out.

All terrestrial signals can have hot and cold spots, just like a cell phone. Try moving your antenna a few feet, or even a few inches (up, down, left, right) and see if you can find a hot spot. With an indoor antenna, virtually everything within your apartment can become an obstacle for the signal to reach your antenna, or the signal can bounce or reflect off of walls, metal panels, etc.

Or, it could simply be, for whatever reason, the built-in tuner in your HDTV is not as good at decoding the weaker signal from the indoor antenna. As GLBright posted just above, his cheap Insignia CECB box can decode WTHI-DT (RF ch. 10), Terre Haute, while his Dish receiver cannot. I've seen this in side-by-side tests between DTV receivers. Not all DTV tuners/receivers are the same at decoding.

If you are using an indoor antenna with a built-in amplifier, the signal could be too strong. Or another issue with some digital receivers is multipath. This is when the true signal mixes with signals that are slightly delayed from bouncing off of nearby objects, thus confusing the receiver.

Without seeing your exact setup, it's difficult to completely diagnose your problem. Hope something here helps.

Steve

I'm using a multidirectional flat antenna. I've tried different positions. Would a be more likely top have success with a rabbit ear style antenna?

Dave73, the application from WISH-TV (LIN TV) to the FCC to turn on a low-power digital on channel 17 is still just an application. Per the FCC website, the FCC has not yet acted on the request.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=39269

If and when this station gets on the air, per the application, areas southeast, south and southwest of their tower will get less than the full 15 kW power limit. This station will operate with a directional antenna as it will have to protect the coverage area of full-power WKPC-DT (RF ch. 17), Louisville. Local low-power digital WDNI-CD (RF channel 19), transmitting from a tower east of downtown Indy, has a very similar directional antenna pattern with its 15 kW signal.

Steve

I didn't know it was still an application. If it does get approved and goes on the air, they also have to protect WYIN Gary/Merrillville as they also broadcast on RF 17. That concerns me since I already have problems with their signal dropping out. Part of that is due to not having an antenna pointed toward Cedar Lake (where WYIN's tower's located). Part of it is at their end.

5 of the 11 HD channels should be available the week of May 12.How about 703? Is ION supposed to be in the clear (ClearQAM)? And if so, when?

How about 703? Is ION supposed to be in the clear (ClearQAM)? And if so, when?

Speaking of ION, glad to see they are now broadcasting in 720p.

Hello all! I have been an on and off again lurker for a while now. I tried a RS antenna a while back and ended up with no channels and an angry wife.

I am presently with the big C, but it looks like my days of $10/month QAM'd HD are about over. I am currently enjoying a LOT of digital channels that Comcast claims that they "are not sending to me...I must be getting them through the air". I tried explaining that ESPN wasn't OTA, but they wouldn't listen to me lol.

In any event, I am almost to the point where netflix+internet is enough to satiate me. I have no problem paying for a television service, but I do have a problem paying out the bum for one. If anyone has any recommendations on paid online streaming television (basically cable tv over the internet...not like Hulu...more like espn360.com type channels) I would greatly appreciate it. ATT U-Verse is not in my area yet.

All of that notwithstanding, I think I am ready to make a real-deal big kid effort on doing the antenna thing. According to antenna web I will only be able to pick up WLFI (CBS) and a Christian channel. I need a setup that would get at least 3 if not 4 of the networks. I live in the valley...really, really close to the river so I have that working against me...and Lafayette is in what appears to be an absolute no mans land otherwise.

I have no idea where to start, I have some finicky landlords (they may be okay with this-don't want to poke the bears until I have too), but I would be willing to spend $1000 to rid myself of $10/month to Comcast. (If HD was in the mix of course ;)

If I have broken any norms here please feel free to torch me. I am 24 and a relative neophyte when it comes to anything technical, but my hatred of Comcast/Verizon/ATT is giving me the strength to attempt to nerd up.

Thanks to anyone who can respond. I would be available to be called or im'd if anyone in the Lafayette area thinks they can help or find someone who can. Ideally I would like to pay someone to make the tough decisions, install equipment, and then explain the whole setup, but I've been known to tear electronics apart to see how everything works (I usually get stuck on the reassembly however).

Thanks again.

Hang in there. Someone here will likely ride to your rescue, like they did for me a couple of times. That valley thing sounds like it will be hard to overcome.

Welcome to AVS Forum, u7x0006. Hopefully some viewers in your area can give you some more local info. I'm in Indy, but I do know about some of the terrain issues in the Lafayette area, especially close to the Wabash River. That could really be an issue with DTV OTA. That's one reason cable TV has been around that city for a long time.

Another site to visit to get some details on what you might expect over-the-air at your specific location is http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29 Plug in your home address plus the height you might be able to go with an antenna. If you could then post this info, without your address, we might be able to determine if you have a decent shot at receiving any other stations besides the two in Lafayette. Besides Indy stations, a few viewers in that general area have had some luck with WICD-DT (RF ch. 41), Champaign. It's affiliated with ABC and transmits with great power (950 kW) and from a very tall tower (1230 ft. above average terrain) which is located between Danville, IL and Champaign.

I think Lafayette Electronic Supply on Earl Ave. still provides antenna/preamp/cable/tower equipment and information. You might inquire and see if they have any local tips.

Steve

The valley scenario scares me also. The only good news is that antenna web has become very conservative in their estimations as to stations received. I have 30 foot antenna (recently installed), and it does far better than antenna web said it would.
I will soon have some photos showing my unusual method of determining the best location for the antenna.

WICD hasn't been an NBC affiliate for years. It's an ABC affiliate these days.

- Trip

WICD hasn't been an NBC affiliate for years. It's an ABC affiliate these days.

- Trip


You are correct, Trip. My old mind still goes back to the early days of WICD when it was an NBC affiliate for years and years. Sorry. Yes, WICD is an ABC affiliate.

Steve

Thank you everybody for your replies.

I ran a few reports on tvfool:

Green: Indoor
Yellow: Attic
Red: Angry Landlord
Grey: Jesus Couldn't Help

Assuming a 20 foot height (and ignoring the church steeples, trees, and low flying aircraft)

I don't know what any of these are except for CBS.

W51DU (51) (Red)
WAJN-LP (43) (Red)
WLFI (Local CBS 11/18.1) (Green)
WICD-DT (41/15.1) (Yellow)
W34DL (34) (Red)
WUVI-LP (65) (Red)

I am in a second story unit, so 20 feet would probably be the best I could do. At 50 feet the other three networks showed up out of Indy-but with co-channel warnings. Nothing else changed.

Internet+PS3+Netflis+CBS might be good enough...but if I could get two networks that would be awesome...then the Mrs. and I could at least flip channels XD.

You guys are great!

u7

I'm using a multidirectional flat antenna. I've tried different positions. Would a be more likely top have success with a rabbit ear style antenna?

Have you tried using a longer coax cable, so that your antenna is farther away from the plasma set? Interference from a plasma set can kill reception of vhf-hi channels. Try moving the antenna at least 2 or 3 feet farther away from the set.

W51DU (51) (Red)
WAJN-LP (43) (Red)
WLFI (Local CBS 11/18.1) (Green)
WICD-DT (41/15.1) (Yellow)
W34DL (34) (Red)
WUVI-LP (65) (Red)


Since all these are in UHF band, here's something to consider, drawing on my own experience.

My Channel Master antenna (4228) is rather compact (~20"x20") and flat (~3" depth), thus less obtrusive than say a Yagi-style VHF antenna with an 8' or longer boom. It performs very well, and has sufficient sensitivity to the upper VHF channels (e.g. Indy CBS's WISH 8 and Louisville's ABC 11) that I no longer have my Winegard 1713 Yagi mounted. (And with my rotator, I'm happy as a clam at high tide!)

It *may* be that a 4228 could help in two ways: lessening the landlord's potential objection because of its relatively small size (could be positioned unobtrusively) AND pulling in weaker signals in your challenging valley location. Of course, this is mere speculation and your own mileage may vary.

I should note that I also have an inline amplifier, a Winegard HDP-269, in my setup. On Sunday, for the first time in the five years I've lived here, I'll be watching the 500 live from WHAS' Louisville towers.

WLFI is on VHF 11.

- Trip

OK, so I'm going to aim the antenna towards Danville, IL, tomorrow morning. It seems to be the closest ABC affiliate. Looks like about 90 miles. I'm 30 miles wsw of the Circle. Wish me luck. Terre Haute doesn't have ABC anymore, and it's on purpose my friends.

Channel !3 (NBC) will not be showing game 2 of the Stanley Cup Finals. Instead, they will be showing the 500 banquet.

Unbelievable!!!!

I am mounting a protest against channel 13.

I think their brains must have fallen out of their ears.

Channel !3 (NBC) will not be showing game 2 of the Stanley Cup Finals. Instead, they will be showing the 500 banquet.

Unbelievable!!!!

I am mounting a protest against channel 13.

I think their brains must have fallen out of their ears.

I love the 500, but come on now. The BANQUET?????

Channel 13 (NBC) will not be showing game 2 of the Stanley Cup Finals. Instead, they will be showing the 500 banquet.


You're welcome to stop by....(BYOB, of course!)

I feel your pain.

I love the 500, but come on now. The BANQUET?????

They took a beating on Facebook. I'm guessing about 200 complaints.

http://www.facebook.com/WTHR13?ref=ts

I love the 500, but come on now. The BANQUET?????

Yes, the Banquet. It's been televised locally for as long as I can remember. We're in Indiana, home of "The Greatest Spectacle in Racing", and there are no NHL teams here. I for one would never, ever complain about their decision to broadcast it, especially since their own Dave Calabro (local boy) was the MC. Guess I just don't care much for hockey.:)

Yes, the Banquet. It's been televised locally for as long as I can remember. We're in Indiana, home of "The Greatest Spectacle in Racing", and there are no NHL teams here. I for one would never, ever complain about their decision to broadcast it, especially since their own Dave Calabro (local boy) was the MC. Guess I just don't care much for hockey.:)

Makes us even. I don't care much for BANQUETS!:)

makes us even. I don't care much for banquets!:)

roflmao!!

It's been televised locally for as long as I can remember. We're in Indiana, home of "The Greatest Spectacle in Racing", and there are no NHL teams here. I for one would never, ever complain about their decision to broadcast it, especially since their own Dave Calabro (local boy) was the MC.

I will offer two comments:

1) the IMS/500 has really stepped up their marketing game, as evidenced by numerous nice touches, including shoot-out qualifying format, introduction of drivers, by row, prior to "ladies & gentlemen, start your engines", etc. I really applaud that.

2) the local TV stations, though, still have a foot a bit in the past, it seems. For instance, the banquet coverage could have been tape-delayed, too, like the local race broadcast.

Finally, I hope Mike Conway recuperates quickly. It was really exciting to see him leading the pack as the laps counted down!!

2) the local TV stations, though, still have a foot a bit in the past, it seems.
The local media outlets (TV, radio, print) all know who butters their bread when it comes to the 500. They all give the race activities an excess amount of coverage and rarely do you see a negative report. Since WTHR's Dave Calabro is a part-time IMS employee and one of the lead track announcers, it doesn't surprise me that WTHR does what the Speedway wants.

Tape delay the banquet? No, WTHR gets the exclusive priviledge of being able to air the big winner's pay-out live. No other live cameras or microphones are permitted in the room.

What WTHR should have done, though, is broadcast the hockey game on 13.2 or 13.3. Certainly not as good as being in HD on 13.1, but at least it would have given hockey fans something.

The local media outlets (TV, radio, print) all know who butters their bread when it comes to the 500. They all give the race activities an excess amount of coverage and rarely do you see a negative report. Since WTHR's Dave Calabro is a part-time IMS employee and one of the lead track announcers, it doesn't surprise me that WTHR does what the Speedway wants.

Tape delay the banquet? No, WTHR gets the exclusive priviledge of being able to air the big winner's pay-out live. No other live cameras or microphones are permitted in the room.

What WTHR should have done, though, is broadcast the hockey game on 13.2 or 13.3. Certainly not as good as being in HD on 13.1, but at least it would have given hockey fans something.

They did broadcast it on one of the sub-channels. Reminded me of my old Atari 800 graphics.
WTHR was in a tough spot, I'll grant you that.
But hockey benefits tremendously from HDTV (unwatchable on a sub-channel), while the banquet would have looked just fine on a sub-channel.
I am a 500 fan, and applaud most of the changes this year. It was a great rate until Sarah Fisher touched the wall.

The local media outlets (TV, radio, print) all know who butters their bread when it comes to the 500. (...) it doesn't surprise me that WTHR does what the Speedway wants.

I understand & accept all that. But all it represents is a 'market-sharing' agreement, by which local broadcasters pledge to only carry the race on delay (so not to impinge IMS' revenues), while agreeing to live-broadcast (thus, hype the supposed 'importance') of the banquet.

Meanwhile, the rest of the nation (and world) is watching the race live, but knows *nothing* -and cares nothing- of the banquet. Explain why that's the case for this, "The Greatest Spectacle in Racing", and you have to conclude this simply constitutes market manipulation. Does IMS really owe its 300,000+ attendance to this "Greatest Spectacle in Racing" to the local TV black-out? That's dinosaur thinking....


Tape delay the banquet?

Mine was a tongue-in-cheek comment, to contrast which of the two events -race or banquet- was 'blessed' with live coverage.


what WTHR should have done, though, is broadcast the hockey game on 13.2 or 13.3.

See Nat's comment as to the value of doing that. Hence my remark that the local broadcasters have yet to 'up' their game.

Makes us even. I don't care much for BANQUETS!:)

Too funny! Excellent.

I know the Banquet is an infomercial for The 500 and all their (over)mentioned sponsors; but isn't May a sweeps month. I wonder how the Banquet ratings were. Indy does better in hockey ratings than given credit for -- 4th in the top 10 markets.

http://blackhawks.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=530721

- dk

But all it represents is a 'market-sharing' agreement, by which local broadcasters pledge to only carry the race on delay (so not to impinge IMS' revenues)...
That's "broadcaster" singular. Since ABC owns the U.S. television broadcast rights, I doubt they'd let any other station besides WRTV 6, their affiliate in Indianapolis broadcast the race, live or delayed.

...while agreeing to live-broadcast (thus, hype the supposed 'importance') of the banquet.
My memory is hazy, but it seems that the banquet broadcast being on one of the "big 3" network stations is recent change. Seems like the banquet used to be on WTTV 4. That was before WTHR started loaning out their sports anchor to the Speedway for announce duties. Is their a connection? I dunno. Was the banquet on WRTV 6 in the days when Tom Carnegie was sports anchor there?

...and you have to conclude this simply constitutes market manipulation.
Give the man a cigar!

Does IMS really owe its 300,000+ attendance to this "Greatest Spectacle in Racing" to the local TV black-out?
Maybe. I would be willing to bet that the majority of the tickets for the race are sold to people who live within 50 miles of the track. Yes, there are thousands of people who come in from all over to watch the race, but most of the attendees are locals. Give those locals an opportunity to sit at home, grill some burgers on their patio, and watch the race on their big screen? Interesting question.

How can the Speedway get away with a local black-out, but folks scream loudly if the Colts home games aren't broadcasted locally (subject to NFL black-out rules). Heck, everytime there's been a Colts game on the NFL Network, one of the local broadcasters has picked it up. Obviously, the Speedway has the priviledge of setting its own rules.

See Nat's comment as to the value of doing that. Hence my remark that the local broadcasters have yet to 'up' their game.
I agree. I'm not sure the local broadcasters appreciate that there are hockey fans in town. How much do the local broadcasters talk about the local minor-league hockey team? Compare that to how much they talk about the local minor-league baseball team?

My memory is hazy, but it seems that the banquet broadcast being on one of the "big 3" network stations is recent change. Seems like the banquet used to be on WTTV 4. That was before WTHR started loaning out their sports anchor to the Speedway for announce duties. Is their a connection? I dunno. Was the banquet on WRTV 6 in the days when Tom Carnegie was sports anchor there?

Maybe. I would be willing to bet that the majority of the tickets for the race are sold to people who live within 50 miles of the track. Yes, there are thousands of people who come in from all over to watch the race, but most of the attendees are locals...

Your memory isn't hazy. I remember Chuck Marlowe (of "pro" wrestling fame) from Channel 4 hosting the event on his station.

And to address the time delay for the local audience: when Channel 38, Terre Haute, was an ABC affiliate, I would climb up on the roof and aim my antenna towards their transmitter. We'd have 20-30 people here to watch the race and eat, eat, eat. None of my guests would have gone to the race, but I can see where locally it could be a big factor. Tried to get Danville, IL, this year. No luck. Time for a taller mast.

I'm in Fishers. Antennaweb.org indicates that I should be able to get NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX, CW, ad PBS with a multidirectional indoor antenna. They are all less than 10 miles from my house and in the same directions.

I tried an antenna that I picked up at Fry's (it looks like a flat square) and was not able to get PBS.
I tried a larger version of the antenna and was not able to get PBS.
I tried an old amplified antenna in different orientations and I was not able to get PBS.
I put the large square antenna in the window and I was able to get everything great! (I don't know what is in my insulated siding but I thought maybe it was interfering.)
Last night (one night after putting the antenna in the window and getting fantastic reception) I once again couldn't get PBS.

The kids primarily watch PBS. If I can't get PBS I should give up and go back to cable.

I really don't want to try and mount an antenna in the garage attic. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get better reception with the indoor antenna?

CerebusTA, welcome to AVS Forum. I see this is your first post.

My suggestion is to purchase a better antenna and to sit it or prop it up in your attic area. I just came from a house 37 miles from the Indy antenna farm and the signal meter indicated 65-67 (out of a possible 100) for WFYI using an old VHF antenna (WFYI on RF channel 21 is UHF) sitting in the attic of a single-story ranch house. Between the antenna and the receiver is probably at least 50-60 ft. of coax and no preamp on the line, just normal antenna signal strength.

In most cases digital TV does require a stronger signal and a cleaner, steady signal as opposed to analog TV to avoid dropouts and/or pixilation, just like satellite TV. Last week, an antenna like this
http://www.frys.com/product/5834763?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG sitting up on the backseat of my car was able to receive WFYI and WIPB-DT 23 (49.1, 49.2, 49.3), Muncie (PBS) in the Trafalgar, IN area (far southwest corner of Johnson Co.) while driving the car. At times, WIPB was even producing steady video while driving east on St. Rd. 252 out of Trafalgar. From Trafalgar to Cowan, IN (WIPB's tower site) is approximately 63 miles. The signals are there. It just has to be received properly. WFYI and WIPB are very similar in effective radiated power output and tower height.

I bring up WIPB because you mentioned your kids enjoy PBS programming. I've noticed at times that WIPB seems to have more kids programming than WFYI. You should be able to receive both stations, which would give the kids two channels to choose from.

Personally, I've never been a fan of indoor antennas, even for analog TV (ghosting, snow, fading signals when somebody walked in front of the antenna (especially for UHF stations, and all but two locals are now on UHF). In my mind, an indoor antenna is like filling the gas tank on your car with 60-70 octane gasoline, while it should be at least 87octane. My two cents.

Steve

I'm in Fishers. Antennaweb.org indicates that I should be able to get NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX, CW, ad PBS with a multidirectional indoor antenna. They are all less than 10 miles from my house and in the same directions.

I tried an antenna that I picked up at Fry's (it looks like a flat square) and was not able to get PBS.
I tried a larger version of the antenna and was not able to get PBS.
I tried an old amplified antenna in different orientations and I was not able to get PBS.
I put the large square antenna in the window and I was able to get everything great! (I don't know what is in my insulated siding but I thought maybe it was interfering.)
Last night (one night after putting the antenna in the window and getting fantastic reception) I once again couldn't get PBS.

The kids primarily watch PBS. If I can't get PBS I should give up and go back to cable.

I really don't want to try and mount an antenna in the garage attic. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get better reception with the indoor antenna?

Are your square antennas amplified? If so, there is a chance you are overloading your tuner on PBS. The TVFool site shows all the major network channels with noise margins in excess of 60db for the 46038 zip code. You may not need an amplified antenna. Check your address at the TVFool site to verify. I would try a very kid friendly single bowtie antenna, if those numbers hold up. With the square, you could try alternate angles towards the window rather than flat. There's 360 degrees to choose from, plus 90 degrees to standing the square straight upward.

You fire up your diesel tractor/front end loader, chain an antenna to it, then drive around to various places in order to determine best reception/location.
It worked! I'm getting far better reception now. 23-1 comes in well about 99% of the time....

You fire up your diesel tractor/front end loader, chain an antenna to it, then drive around to various places in order to determine best reception/location.
It worked! I'm getting far better reception now. 23-1 comes in well about 99% of the time....

OMG! I am a truck driver. When I sit for a day or so, I have a sat dish I hook up. There have been times I have driven around a parking lot trying the find the darn Satellite. It looks terrible, but it works!

Too funny! Excellent.

I know the Banquet is an infomercial for The 500 and all their (over)mentioned sponsors; but isn't May a sweeps month. I wonder how the Banquet ratings were. Indy does better in hockey ratings than given credit for -- 4th in the top 10 markets.

http://blackhawks.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=530721

- dk

If WTHR did not run game 2 of the banquet, then wouldn't the rating indicated in the article be of the banquet? If so, the banquet had a higher rating for all markets except the two teams involved and Buffalo.

OMG! I am a truck driver. When I sit for a day or so, I have a sat dish I hook up. There have been times I have driven around a parking lot trying the find the darn Satellite. It looks terrible, but it works!

Oh, yeah. That's what I'm talkin' 'bout.
Ingenuity!:)

Hang in there. Someone here will likely ride to your rescue, like they did for me a couple of times. That valley thing sounds like it will be hard to overcome.

The O.P. can see the details of my setup here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13787020#post13787020
but I am in McCutcheon Heights, about 4.3 miles south of the courthouse. By Google Earth, I would put the river about 90 feet below my area, so you will be likely to encounter many issues I do not have.

You might get lucky with WICD. Their tower is actually closer to Danville than Champaigne, and is pretty much directly down the river valley line from Lafayette. See here
http://maps.google.com/maps?t=h&q=40.069722,-87.9125(WICD)&ie=UTF8&ll=40.294192,-87.247925&spn=1.332355,2.200012&z=9

If WTHR did not run game 2 of the banquet, then wouldn't the rating indicated in the article be of the banquet? If so, the banquet had a higher rating for all markets except the two teams involved and Buffalo.

Or... 13.2 got better ratings than 13.1.

You fire up your diesel tractor/front end loader, chain an antenna to it, then drive around to various places in order to determine best reception/location.
It worked! I'm getting far better reception now. 23-1 comes in well about 99% of the time....

Finding that sweet spot for the best signal and reception. Nice going!

This area experienced some fairly strong tropo enhancement this morning with DTV stations in here from cities like Decatur and Champaign, IL, and Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus, Zanesville, Youngstown and Cleveland, OH.

A reminder that this is E-skip season, too. The time of year when VHF low-band channels (ch. 2-6) sometimes travel hundreds of miles. Some of the more common targets in this area include KOTA-DT-2, Rapid City, SD; KNOP-DT-2, North Platte, NE; and WLBZ-DT-2, Bangor, ME. This afternoon I left a DTV receiver tuned to ch. 2 with the antenna aimed toward Maine. A few hours later I checked the receiver and the display read "WLBZ-HD."

Steve

WTWO lost its NBC satellite feed for about 20 minutes Sunday evening. They put up local radar and said they would return to programming when the heavy rain ceased.
Does anyone know if they only use a Ku feed for NBC? I seem to remember it takes a LOT of rain (like Biblical amounts) to take out a C-band feed.
I went over to the AMC6 Ku satellite and watched the program off the NBC feed but it wasn't raining here, so...
Inquiring minds...

dennis

It was a quasi-Biblical rainstorm over part of the area as much as half an inch in 10 minutes. It knocked out my DISH Network satellite for 5 minutes.

I remember WTHR losing its NBC feed for several minutes a few years ago during very heavy rain as a thunderstorm moved through downtown Indy.

Steve

Yes, and WNDU in South Bend has also recently lost both KU and C-band NBC feeds due to very heavy rain outages.

Has comcast recently switched most of their analog cable to all digital? I used to get plenty of stations, then one day about half were gone. Now, they are all gone except the national networks (abc, cbs, etc.). I don't have digital cable. Anybody else have a similar experience?

Has comcast recently switched most of their analog cable to all digital? I used to get plenty of stations, then one day about half were gone. Now, they are all gone except the national networks (abc, cbs, etc.). I don't have digital cable. Anybody else have a similar experience?
Yes Showtime, Comcast has or is transitioning, depending on your area, to a digital delivery method and it sounds like you will need to contact Comcast to get their DTA (Digital Transport Adapter) to continue to receive cable service beyond what you are able to receive now. It is my understanding that you can receive up to 3 DTAs (1 per TV set needed)at no additional cost, but additional boxes are $1.99/mo/box. I have 4 boxes total in my house, and am rather surprised at the improved difference in the picture quality over analog. It's nowhere HD, but yet I didn't expect it to be. Hope this helps.

Alex

Comcast's transition to digital was discussed here three months ago.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233950
As a Comcast subscriber, you should have received a letter from Comcast back in February or March explaining the transition, channel changes, etc. Local OTA stations with HD broadcasts should still be available via QAM tuners.

Getting closer to move to channel 17 (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-298868A1.pdf). Page 14.

Getting closer to move to channel 17 (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-298868A1.pdf). Page 14.

Not to appear ignorant or anything, but what is a "DTV replacement translator?:)

Not to appear ignorant or anything, but what is a "DTV replacement translator?:)

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/80878

I predict that most viewers in the metro area using indoor antennas that are not able to receive the WISH VHF signal on RF channel 9 will not be able to receive the low power WISH UHF signal on RF channel 17, which will be operating with a directional antenna. This will reduce the channel 17 signal to the south.

If you can receive WDNI-CD-19, Indy, then you might stand a chance of receiving WISH-LD-17. Otherwise, you most likely will not receive this one, too.

The replacement translator plan basically proposes that if you can't receive a full-power signal that you will be able to receive a low-power signal. Does that make any sense? In my opinion and experience, there is no substitute for a good antenna.

Steve

Does anyone know when OTA ION 63.1 went from 480i to 720p? It's a nice surprise (although it seems a bit too grainy), unlike WIPB's downgrading 49.1 from 1080i to 720p.

Months ago.

- Trip

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/80878

I predict that most viewers in the metro area using indoor antennas that are not able to receive the WISH VHF signal on RF channel 9 will not be able to receive the low power WISH UHF signal on RF channel 17, which will be operating with a directional antenna. This will reduce the channel 17 signal to the south.

If you can receive WDNI-CD-19, Indy, then you might stand a chance of receiving WISH-LD-17. Otherwise, you most likely will not receive this one, too.

The replacement translator plan basically proposes that if you can't receive a full-power signal that you will be able to receive a low-power signal. Does that make any sense? In my opinion and experience, there is no substitute for a good antenna.

Steve

Would this be why I am having issues receiving there signal downtown today?

Would this be why I am having issues receiving there signal downtown today?

No. WISH-LD (17) is not on the air at this time. And when it does hit the air, it will be a completely different and independent signal from that of WISH-DT (9). WISH-LD will broadcast the WISH-DT programming just like WTTK-DT (29) broadcasts the WTTV-DT (48) programming.

Just wondering, as I read about a proposal to 'free-up' some of the current TV spectrum for new wireless broadband applications. The talk is that the current TV channels would be 'packed' more tightly.

I can only imagine that shifting TV frequencies to effect such 'packing' might pose the threat of obsoleting many, many ATSC tuners, including the "converter boxes" for those still using analog televisions.

Here's my question, which I think would lie at the heart of this: When a TV's tuner scans for available TV channels, does it look to discrete frequencies (channels) -- or does it scan the *entire* band and map what it finds accordingly?

---------
here's a thumbnail of what the Obama administration seeks to do:

1. Identify and plan for the release of 500 MHz of spectrum.
2. Provide new tools and new incentives to free up spectrum.
3. Redeploy the spectrum to high-value uses.
4. Use the auction proceeds to promote public safety and job-creating infrastructure investment.

Just wondering, as I read about a proposal to 'free-up' some of the current TV spectrum for new wireless broadband applications. The talk is that the current TV channels would be 'packed' more tightly.

I can only imagine that shifting TV frequencies to effect such 'packing' might pose the threat of obsoleting many, many ATSC tuners, including the "converter boxes" for those still using analog televisions.

Here's my question, which I think would lie at the heart of this: When a TV's tuner scans for available TV channels, does it look to discrete frequencies (channels) -- or does it scan the *entire* band and map what it finds accordingly?

---------
here's a thumbnail of what the Obama administration seeks to do:

1. Identify and plan for the release of 500 MHz of spectrum.
2. Provide new tools and new incentives to free up spectrum.
3. Redeploy the spectrum to high-value uses.
4. Use the auction proceeds to promote public safety and job-creating infrastructure investment.

Scares me....I've spent a lot of money on TV gear over the last 2 years. I'm retired and can't afford to do it again. I hate to see what a mess the Government gets us into with this.
Look at their oversight of BP in the Gulf....Really screwed that one up. :mad:

found this from the FCC, which asserts re-packing would not affect scanning & mapping of stations:
------------------
SPECTRUM ANALYSIS: OPTIONS FOR BROADCAST SPECTRUM
FCC OBI TECHNICAL PAPER NO. 3 June 2010

http://download.broadband.gov/plan/fcc-omnibus-broadband-initiative-(obi)-technical-paper-spectrum-analysis-options-for-broadband-spectrum.pdf (begins on pp 16)

"Repacking would not affect how OTA viewers tune their
televisions to receive channels, because the Program and
System Information Protocol (PSIP) carried over digital
broadcasts decouples the tuned channel, or “virtual” channel,
from the actual radiofrequency channel over which signals
are broadcast. For example, a viewer accustomed to tuning to
channel 7 to receive her favorite local station would continue
to tune to channel 7 on her TV, independent of whether the
station’s radiofrequency channel changes.52 However, viewers
would have to perform a “re-scan” on their televisions, by navigating
through a few TV menu screens, for tuners to map the
new radiofrequency channels to the virtual channels. By enabling
this “repack then rescan” approach, the DTV transition
laid the technological foundation for greater spectrum efficiency.
Educating consumers on the need to perform a re-scan
and supporting those who experience problems would require
significant effort on the part of the FCC and broadcasters.
Repacking would require some broadcasters to purchase new
equipment to broadcast from a new channel. Several factors
would determine this need, including the radiofrequency distance
in megahertz between the old and new channels and the range
of frequencies across which the stations’ current equipment can
broadcast. Stations that changed channel assignments would also
incur engineering costs to replicate their prior coverage areas—
small spectral migrations would not significantly affect coverage
areas, but larger migrations would. Because of these disruptions
and expenses, the FCC should implement a repacking near the end
of a reallocation process as a means to gain greater efficiency in
conjunction with or after an incentive auction, not as a standalone
action before any others. In all scenarios, the FCC would require
auction winners to reimburse stations for all expenses incurred
as a result of a repacking effort. Such reimbursement is consistent
with prior FCC actions and with current FCC authority."

Relating to DTV translator stations, OTA viewers in the Crawfordsville/Veedersburg/Covington, IN area might be able to receive this low-power station. It relays WAND-DT, Decatur, IL (NBC). It transmits on RF channel 31 with 3.08 kW @ around 200 ft. above average terrain. I didn't realize it was on the air until I received it here in Indy one morning last week. The PSIP will come up as "WAND-DT" and "17-1."

found this from the FCC, which asserts re-packing would not affect scanning & mapping of stations..."

If they are going to do anything to ever force another "upgrade" of equipment, they really need to advance the h.264 standard for OTA vs. MPEG2. That way the main channels could go full HD without sacrificing the sub channels due to bandwidth limitations.

Problem: I have two digital sets and one analogue with a converter. One digital set is on our main level with a $30 amplified rabbit-ears antenna. The other digital set is in the basement connected via coax to an amplified omnidirectional antenna in the attic. The one with the converter is on the main level connected to the attic antenna too. The latter is able to receive the harder to get OTA stations (e.g. 63.x) more consistently than the one in the basement (which has reception problem at daytime). The rabbit ears set gets all the stations as the ones connected to the attic antenna except that I have to adjust the UHF ring sometimes when going between 63.x and 49.x (WIPB) which is not a problem.

Question: So, is there any additional inexpensive amplifier I can connect to the line in the basement to improve reception since it does not appear to be a directional issue since the set on the main level (shorter coax distance to antenna)? That attic antenna already has an amplifier that came with it that is plugged in, so I didn't know if another amp would even help.

We're only talking about 3 or so channels that would improve, but they are ones that are watched. We're big OTA viewers, currently getting about 25 (some worthless m subs) channels, and loving it.

Question: So, is there any additional inexpensive amplifier I can connect to the line in the basement to improve reception since it does not appear to be a directional issue since the set on the main level (shorter coax distance to antenna)? That attic antenna already has an amplifier that came with it that is plugged in, so I didn't know if another amp would even help.



"You might not need an amplifier if the antenna is too big. But an amplifier can never make up for an antenna that is too small." That's my favorite comment from the author at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html Check out the info sections Signal Amplifiers, Preamplifiers, part 1 and part 2.

The main source of signal needs to come from the antenna. From your description, it doesn't sound as though your antenna is providing enough signal for the job. Adding another amplifier to a line that is already amplified can many times cause more problems. Without more specific information, it's difficult to totally assess your issue.

Also, some DTV receivers (tuners) are much better than others at decoding and maintaining dropout-free video when receiving a weak signal.

Steve

"You might not need an amplifier if the antenna is too big. But an amplifier can never make up for an antenna that is too small." That's my favorite comment from the author at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html Check out the info sections Signal Amplifiers, Preamplifiers, part 1 and part 2.

The main source of signal needs to come from the antenna. From your description, it doesn't sound as though your antenna is providing enough signal for the job. Adding another amplifier to a line that is already amplified can many times cause more problems. Without more specific information, it's difficult to totally assess your issue.

Also, some DTV receivers (tuners) are much better than others at decoding and maintaining dropout-free video when receiving a weak signal.

Steve

Thanks for the information. Since one of the two TVs connected to the same antenna gets all the channels consistently, I was thinking that since the one in the basement was furthest from the antenna (i.e. has more coax between the TV and antenna, that I'm losing the strength in distance to that TV.

While re-scanning the TV, I now have two 8.1 channels. The 8.2 and 8.3 is still one of each. Any idea on what is going on?

While re-scanning the TV, I now have two 8.1 channels. The 8.2 and 8.3 is still one of each. Any idea on what is going on?

WIIH-LD 17 (RF channel 8) is once again messed up like it normally is about every three weeks. Instead of the PSIP reading "17-1" and "LWS" it simply reads "8-3" with no audio and no video.

Maybe your receiver detected the signal and identified it as "8-1" instead of "8-3" or "17-1" as it should be. This is the only explanation I have unless your receiver caught some signal from a station in a different market during the scan.

WIIH-LD 17 (RF channel 8) is once again messed up like it normally is about every three weeks. Instead of the PSIP reading "17-1" and "LWS" it simply reads "8-3" with no audio and no video.

Maybe your receiver detected the signal and identified it as "8-1" instead of "8-3" or "17-1" as it should be. This is the only explanation I have unless your receiver caught some signal from a station in a different market during the scan.

After the re-scan. the "first" 8.1 was dead, with the 2nd one showing WISH program.
An hour later, it was reversed, the first 8.1 had WISH programming, the second one dead. There was no reading on 17.1.

While I am glad to see ION is now broadcasting 63.1 in 720p, it looks awfully grainy on content that I know was originally broadcast in HD (without grain) on a big 3 network. Does anyone know what could be causing that artifact? I am aware of artifacts caused by allocating low bandwidth to channels/subs (e.g. macro-blocking), but this seems like something different.

While I am glad to see ION is now broadcasting 63.1 in 720p, it looks awfully grainy on content that I know was originally broadcast in HD (without grain) on a big 3 network. Does anyone know what could be causing that artifact? I am aware of artifacts caused by allocating low bandwidth to channels/subs (e.g. macro-blocking), but this seems like something different.

This problem also exists in Chicago. So this isn't just an Indianapolis/Bloomington problem. If I'm not mistaken, this is also a problem on the Milwaukee area Ion Television station (licensed to Kenosha Wisconsin, but transmits out of Milwaukee). I wonder if this is a problem with the signal to the Ion stations or something else, as this is happening with multiple Ion stations.

Mediacom finally removed ch 29 and 29.2 from its line up.The signal was too iffy at the North Manchester head-in site .Attended the Indy hamfest,afterwards drove past the new candleabra tower.Is the same tower used for both signals??.The new location isn't cutting the mustard.A power increase would offer token results at best. Return to Windfall with a power increase and leave well enough alone .The morning and evening enhancement openings help but too iffy and are marginal in the fall and winter months.P.S.love the This network and whats with the 4:30 A.M. news on 29.2.

This problem also exists in Chicago. So this isn't just an Indianapolis/Bloomington problem. If I'm not mistaken, this is also a problem on the Milwaukee area Ion Television station (licensed to Kenosha Wisconsin, but transmits out of Milwaukee). I wonder if this is a problem with the signal to the Ion stations or something else, as this is happening with multiple Ion stations.

Thanks for the info. It's good to know I'm not the only one noticing it, but interesting that it's also happening elsewhere.

Maybe they are intentionally introducing the grain to help maintain that old "staticy" analogue UHF look. :p

Mediacom finally removed ch 29 and 29.2 from its line up.The signal was too iffy at the North Manchester head-in site .Attended the Indy hamfest,afterwards drove past the new candleabra tower.Is the same tower used for both signals??.The new location isn't cutting the mustard.A power increase would offer token results at best. Return to Windfall with a power increase and leave well enough alone .The morning and evening enhancement openings help but too iffy and are marginal in the fall and winter months.P.S.love the This network and whats with the 4:30 A.M. news on 29.2.

With Tribune's bankruptcy woes, I doubt that will ever happen. The WTTK transmitter site move from Windfall to its own WXIN tower site in Indy reduced overhead, provides a great signal into its city of license (Kokomo), and provides a strong signal over the northern part of the Indy metro. As a satellite station for WTTV, this accomplishes its goals.

The candleabra tower is used by WHMB and WDTI. The WXIN/WTTK tower is just SSE of that one and uses a top-mount combo antenna for both channels.

Speaking of towers, the Tokyo Sky Tree, currently under construction, is a serious DTV tower that will top out at 2080 ft. This is approximately 300 ft. taller than the broadcast towers in downtown Chicago. The 1998 ft. tower for KFVS-DT, Cape Girardeau, MO, is the nearest tower to Indy that I know of to be anywhere near this height.

http://www.tokyo-skytree.jp/english/
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=346504

WFYI-DT-20 (RF ch. 21) is preparing to change its side-mount antenna for a
top-mount and increase the ERP a little, too. The change will be from 200 kW
with a directional antenna @ 774 ft. to 250 kW with a non-directional antenna @
828 ft. WFYI-DT along with WFYI-FM will be off the air from time to time while
the work is in progress through the end of July. After checking the extended weather forecast, it looks as though the tower crew will be working between hit and miss showers and thunderstorms for several days.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=41397

http://www.wfyi.org/#tab1 (lower left corner)

Last night was a fun night for DX. I received WISE-TV and WPTA-TV from Ft Wayne, WIPB-Muncie, and WTWO-Terre Haute. I am exactly 2 miles north of US 40 in Plainfield.

BTW, Any WISH-TV people looking in, please..please get Julie Patterson a map of the area. On Wednesday, she gave an accident as US 40 and Tennessee St in DANVILLE!! Sorry, it is US 36.
<rant over>

BTW, Any WISH-TV people looking in, please..please get Julie Patterson a map of the area. On Wednesday, she gave an accident as US 40 and Tennessee St in DANVILLE!! Sorry, it is US 36.
<rant over>

Well, it couldn't have been too severe, since it didn't take out Speedway, H&R Block, or Subway. May as well have been at 40 & Tennessee.:)

Apparently, the antenna has been delivered and the tower crew is ready for the channel change at WSYX in Columbus. Why should you care? Since WSYX is going from VHF 13 to UHF 48, I'm guessing this should improve some reception to the east of Indy.

http://www.hdcolumbus.net/vb-hdtv/showpost.php?p=15349&postcount=24

Apparently, the antenna has been delivered and the tower crew is ready for the channel change at WSYX in Columbus. Why should you care? Since WSYX is going from VHF 13 to UHF 48, I'm guessing this should improve some reception to the east of Indy.

http://www.hdcolumbus.net/vb-hdtv/showpost.php?p=15349&postcount=24

Thanks for the update.

Steve

Last night was a fun night for DX. I received WISE-TV and WPTA-TV from Ft Wayne, WIPB-Muncie, and WTWO-Terre Haute. I am exactly 2 miles north of US 40 in Plainfield.


Yes, the passing thunderstorms had area signals very elevated, especially from Fort Wayne, Dayton, Cincinnati and Terre Haute, or at least that's what I noticed. I'm located 94 miles from the Fort Wayne towers and the signal meter on my Sony 60" HDTV was indicating 98 out of a possible 100 for WISE around 7 p.m. Fort Wayne stations are in here quite often during times of tropo scatter and enhancement but that was about the strongest signal I've ever seen from WISE.

Then Friday morning the tropo extended northeast into Cleveland with virtually every DTV from that market making it to Indy and then a little later KSDK (RF ch. 35), St. Louis popped up. Nice stretch of around 500 miles between Cleveland and St. Louis, with Indy right in the middle.

Steve

and then a little later KSDK (RF ch. 35), St. Louis popped up. Nice stretch of around 500 miles between Cleveland and St. Louis, with Indy right in the middle.

So, what's the news from St. Louis?

I have a 42" Vizio that was shutting down whenever I turned to 4-1 or 29-1. I'm aware that both of these are the CW network. I think it's a problem with my TV & those two programs. Channels 4-2 and 29-2 don't have this problem. To me this lessens the possibility of a signal strength issue here in Westfield. Do you agree?

Vizio support suggested a "double scan" where I do a channel scan with no antenna and then do another channel scan with an antenna connected. I had this same problem in January 2010, and I think the double scan worked then. I did the double scan today, and eventually I was able to watch those programs with no problems.

Does anyone know of what WTTV and/or WTTK could be putting in those programs that cause a TV to shutdown?

So, what's the news from St. Louis?

Actually I didn't watch anything Friday morning, but KSDK is in and out right now and I just watched the St. Louis weather forecast and in traffic news I watched a tow truck pulling a car out of a pond. Isn't that exciting!!! Sounds like the same thing from Indy. Just a different spot along I-70.

Steve

I have a 42" Vizio that was shutting down whenever I turned to 4-1 or 29-1. I'm aware that both of these are the CW network. I think it's a problem with my TV & those two programs. Channels 4-2 and 29-2 don't have this problem. To me this lessens the possibility of a signal strength issue here in Westfield. Do you agree?

Vizio support suggested a "double scan" where I do a channel scan with no antenna and then do another channel scan with an antenna connected. I had this same problem in January 2010, and I think the double scan worked then. I did the double scan today, and eventually I was able to watch those programs with no problems.

Does anyone know of what WTTV and/or WTTK could be putting in those programs that cause a TV to shutdown?

There were a few issues similar to what you are describing with one of these stations a few years ago. IIRC, I'm thinking it might have been WTTK when it was operating at low power from the WXIN tower in Indy and from the Windfall tower. That issue was resolved with a new download program from the transmitter manufacturer. But at that time several viewers with various brands of DTV tuners complained here at AVS Forum and to the station. You are the first one to mention this problem for a long time. Hopefully you can resolve it yourself or with assistance from Vizio. If there is some major issue at the station and/or with the CW feed, I'm sure others would have noticed the same problem. I own several different brands/models of receivers and none of them have displayed any issues with these stations.

Steve

Anyone having problems pulling in WTHI 10-1 and 10-2 out of Terre Haute? I have DirecTV and pull in my local channels via OTA. On Friday, 10-1 and 10-2 went out and have not come back on. I can pull 2-1 and 38-1 in just fine. 10-1 and 10-2 says "searching for satellite signal". I have done a test to see if the tuners are working and they say they are.

Anyone having problems pulling in WTHI 10-1 and 10-2 out of Terre Haute? I have DirecTV and pull in my local channels via OTA. On Friday, 10-1 and 10-2 went out and have not come back on. I can pull 2-1 and 38-1 in just fine. 10-1 and 10-2 says "searching for satellite signal". I have done a test to see if the tuners are working and they say they are.
I just turned my antenna towards Terre Haute, and 10-1 and 10-2 are fine here in Bloomington, IN.

Comcast Indianapolis area subs:

Do you get HDNet and or HDNet Movies?

Comcast Indianapolis area subs:

Do you get HDNet and or HDNet Movies?

Bloomington Comcast gets HDNet. I must say that it doesn't seem to have the same variety of programming it once did. Lots of old shows, movies, etc.
Wednesday may just be a slow day for them.

Do you get HDNet and or HDNet Movies?

Anderson/New Castle also gets HDNet.

Are Bloomington & Anderson/New Castle ex-Insight areas?