Pittsburgh, PA - OTA [Text View] - Page 10

rbpeirce

02-20-07, 10:28 AM

Hi guys, I'm sure these questions have already been asked, but I would appreciate some help for someone who is a neophyte. I am looking to get rid of DISH. Right now with the VIP 211 receiver and bunny ears, I can pick up the 4 major networks with reasonable signal strength (b/t 70-85), but that is with good weather.
I am looking to replace the VIP 211 with a samsung DTB-H260F. I was also planning on trying to do an attic antenna to beef up the signal (not getting PBS or QED).

My questions are:

1. Antenna that would be the best? I was looking at the DB8, but it says only UHF.(side note: Are the HD signals going to VHF in 2008).
1a. Do I need two antennas (1 VHF, 1 UHF)?

2. Do I need a pre-amp or amp? (approx. 75 ' cable run with RG-6 cable)

My address zip is Linden Vue Dr, 15317. The towers are all approx 17 miles away and like everybody else, WTAE is 50-60 degrees from the other stations. I am in a two-story and relatively high on a hill.

Looks like you are in McMuarray/Venetia. I don't know where Linden Vue is, but I have two antennae in my attic. One points to Ch 4-1. The other points toward the rest of the Pgh channels. They are joined and sent to the receiver. I happen to be near the top of a hill. I get great reception. One antenna is an old Radio Shack I bought 12 years ago. The Ch 4-1 antenna is a Channel Master coded for fringe areas.

garsh

02-20-07, 10:46 AM

1. Antenna that would be the best? I was looking at the DB8, but it says only UHF.(side note: Are the HD signals going to VHF in 2008).All the Pittsburgh-area HD stations are UHF & will stay UHF, so a UHF antenna is all you need.

I could have sworn I read that WQED was going to give their current channels to WQEX & move to a VHF channel after analog broadcasts are stopped, but I can't find where I read that, so I'm going to assume I made it up ;) . You can find the FCC channel assignments here (http://www.fcc.gov/oet/dtv/).

I would start by getting rid of the bunny ears (VHF) and trying a bow-tie (UHF), assuming you have one already. If you're already picking up stations with bunny ears, switching to a bow-tie might be good enough for you.

Radio Shack appears to have a couple of inexpensive UHF-only antennas available, if you need something better than a bow-tie. This one (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103058) is an indoor antenna, and this one (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088) is an outdoor antenna. Both have pretty good ratings & reviews, and you can use the website to check for local store availability.

If you want to replace your dish with an outdoor antenna & reuse the cabling (which you seem to be implying when you say you already have a 75' cable), then you may need an amp to handle the long cable run. I would try not using an amp first though.

atharp1

02-20-07, 02:58 PM

garsh

02-20-07, 03:22 PM

Thinking of putting up outdoor antenna in Ellwood City area, what kinda reception can I expect. Is there a program to run for determining what channels I will receive based on lat and long cordinates?Antennaweb (http://antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx) will let you enter your address, and then tell you which stations you're likely to receive, what type of antenna you will need, and in what direction an antenna should be aimed for each station. I found that the results were very conservative, and I receive several more stations than it listed.

Another method is to use the 2150 site (http://www.2150.com/broadcast/). You can use the suggested juggling.org site to find your latitude & longitude, but I prefer to use Google maps (http://maps.google.com). Just enter your address, and then click the "Link to this page" link, and the resulting URL contains the latitude & longitude values within it. 2150 will list every station within the range your specify. It includes the direction of your house from the transmitter, and a graphical representation of the transmission pattern. If you specify a large enough range (say, 60 miles) you will see every station you get, plus several that you won't be able to receive.

dmorrison

02-21-07, 09:15 AM

This is a REAL conversation a friend of mine had the other day:

My conversation with the clerk at a local Radio Shack:

Me: "Have you tried connecting an off the air antenna to one of your HD receivers?"

Clerk: "No. That does not give a very good picture compared to what we get from the satellite receiver."

Me: "Why is that?"

Clerk: "If you use the antenna, you are only using one cable to get the picture to the TV while the satellite receiver uses three cables so the picture is three times better.

These sales people are killin' me!!!

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

PA_MainyYak

02-21-07, 10:43 AM

All the Pittsburgh-area HD stations are UHF & will stay UHF, so a UHF antenna is all you need.

I could have sworn I read that WQED was going to give their current channels to WQEX & move to a VHF channel after analog broadcasts are stopped, but I can't find where I read that, so I'm going to assume I made it up ;) . You can find the FCC channel assignments here (http://www.fcc.gov/oet/dtv/).

I would start by getting rid of the bunny ears (VHF) and trying a bow-tie (UHF), assuming you have one already. If you're already picking up stations with bunny ears, switching to a bow-tie might be good enough for you.

Radio Shack appears to have a couple of inexpensive UHF-only antennas available, if you need something better than a bow-tie. This one (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103058) is an indoor antenna, and this one (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088) is an outdoor antenna. Both have pretty good ratings & reviews, and you can use the website to check for local store availability.

If you want to replace your dish with an outdoor antenna & reuse the cabling (which you seem to be implying when you say you already have a 75' cable), then you may need an amp to handle the long cable run. I would try not using an amp first though.

Not your imagination garsh :). That info was from a post (#2218) on this thread in January.

According to the FCC's Digital Channel Elections section, the current digital channels in Pittsburgh will generally remain the same with the exception of WQED and WQEX:
WQED 13 (gives up 38)
KDKA 25
WQEX 38 (gives up 16 and exchanges 26 for 38)
WPMY 42
WPGH 43
WPXI 48
WTAE 51
WPCW 49 (if the FCC ever gets around to approving their construction permit)

In Johnstown, WJAC (NBC) will keep 34, while WWCP (FOX) will give up 29 and return to 8.

WFMJ (20), WKBN (41), and WYTV (36) in Youngstown will all keep their current digital channels.
I pulled the information from the FCC's Tentative Digital Channel Designation list (rounds 1 & 2). There have been some changes to the overall list by way of the Round 3 elections, but none that impact stations in our region (Philadelphia is a bit of a nightmare). Here's the url to the spreadsheet file:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-1082A2.xls

jake65

02-21-07, 10:54 AM

i can get all the locals in cranberry with an indoor antenna at 90% for everything but wtae is 80%. the key is finding the sweet spot. i had to put the antenna on top of a bookcase to get the best signal. i guess it depends on where you are living though, i live off of haine school road.

Tipton what kind of antenna are you using?

benji15301

02-21-07, 04:43 PM

doof00001

02-22-07, 07:31 AM

Thanks guys for all of the information. I am going to do my best spiderman imitation this weekend with the cable run, although I guess I should be doing three cable runs too ;) . That was truly a nugget of fine info from Radio Shack's best.

Mark Vidonic

02-22-07, 11:25 AM

When I move the end of March, I'm gonna try running 6 cables in the new place and maybe then I can pull in 1080P.

andy.s.lee

02-23-07, 02:11 AM

Thinking of putting up outdoor antenna in Ellwood City area, what kinda reception can I expect. Is there a program to run for determining what channels I will receive based on lat and long cordinates?
Most of Ellwood City is situated low relative to the surrounding hills. This leaves most of the city in an RF "dark spot" (see attached image). The map is color coded with red in areas with very few receivable channels and green in areas with lots of channels. As you can see, the tops of hills are the best places to get OTA TV. Your prospects of receiving OTA broadcasts at city level are not so good unless you happen to live high up on one of the hills (or have an immensely tall antenna <grin>).

I have 3D RF modeling software that can compute signal strengths at any location if you'd like to check out your specific coordinates. I haven't had time to create a web interface for the tools yet, so for now I just generate the results individually. Just give me your coordinates if you're interested.

You can also try antennaweb, as suggested by garsh. That's what most people use, but it's results are mostly based on transmitter power and distance as opposed to RF propagation physics. It does a poor job of taking terrain into account, so its predictions can be too optimistic or too conservative depending on your actual situation.

Good luck!

RocketFoot

02-23-07, 08:14 AM

I'm becoming too obsessed with this OTA stuff...LOL

So far, I can only pull in WTAE & KDKA (at times) with my Terk HDTVi set top antenna, but the max signal strength never exceeds 65. This weekend, I am going to try to run the cable from my old dinosaur antenna on the roof and see what kind of signals I can pull.

I was able to watch LOST Wed in HD and I like what I see...but it feels like my eyes are blurry after going back to Dish SD channels! I am probably just gonna spring for the Dish HD this summer!

garsh

02-23-07, 09:42 AM

So far, I can only pull in WTAE & KDKA (at times) with my Terk HDTVi set top antenna, but the max signal strength never exceeds 65.I did some tweaking of my attic antenna this week (make sure coax & ground wires leave antenna vertically, & slight repositioning), and I was able to pull in WTAE for the first time. But like you, signal strength was only around 65. Good enough for my TV, but not quite good enough for my DVR's tuner. I may try adding an amplifier next.

dmorrison

02-23-07, 04:55 PM

I did some tweaking of my attic antenna this week (make sure coax & ground wires leave antenna vertically, & slight repositioning), and I was able to pull in WTAE for the first time. But like you, signal strength was only around 65. Good enough for my TV, but not quite good enough for my DVR's tuner. I may try adding an amplifier next.

Here's an antenna tip. Be sure that you're coax is cut to length (or close to it). Do NOT coil your excess coax and tie it with wire ties. Coiled coax acts as a choke, and a choke will have a negative impact on the received signal at your set.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

andy.s.lee

02-23-07, 07:35 PM

Here are simulation results as per request for garsh.

The radar plot indicates that most channels are going to be weak (red zone). Longer bars indicate stronger signals (10 dB per ring). This means that most of these channels are unlikely to be picked up by a set-top antenna. Even a rooftop antenna should have high gain and be installed as high as possible to pick up these channels with any degree of stability.

The channel weakness is mostly due to terrain blockage. The surrounding hills simply make reception in the lower areas near impossible.

Here is a list of the channels, sorted by decreasing signal strength (Rx_dBm). If you look under the "Path" column, all the channels show either "1Edge" or "2Edge", which means that these channels only reach this point by diffracting over the top edge of the hills / mountains. From the given location, there are no line-of-sight paths to any of the broadcast channels. Having a higher antenna will reduce the angle of diffraction and thus increase received signal strength, but depending on your situation, it might be impractical / impossible to install the antenna high enough to matter.

Callsgn Type Chan Freq Tx_kW Rx_dBm Path Dist Azimuth
KDKA-TV (A) 2 55.24 100.00 -65.2 2Edge 26.9 157.2
WPMY (A) 22 519.25 3800.00 -76.6 2Edge 47.1 130.8
WKBN-TV (A) 27 549.25 871.00 -77.3 1Edge 56.9 311.9
WPXI (A) 11 199.25 316.00 -77.8 2Edge 30.5 157.5
WFMJ-TV (A) 21 513.24 2624.19 -79.5 2Edge 58.3 314.1
WKBN-TV (D) 41 632.31 700.00 -82.3 1Edge 56.9 311.9
KDKA-TV (D) 25 536.31 1000.00 -85.5 2Edge 26.9 157.2
WQED (A) 13 211.24 316.00 -85.8 2Edge 33.7 153.4
WPGH-TV (A) 53 705.26 2340.00 -89.0 2Edge 27.2 154.7
WTAE-TV (A) 4 67.26 100.00 -91.4 2Edge 56.4 149.5
WYTV (A) 33 585.25 912.00 -91.6 2Edge 56.6 312.9
WWCP-TV (A) 8 181.24 111.03 -91.9 2Edge 102.6 125.5
WJAC-TV (A) 6 83.25 70.80 -92.4 2Edge 105.0 111.5
WPGH-TV (D) 43 644.31 502.13 -92.7 2Edge 27.2 154.7
WFMJ-TV (D) 20 506.31 200.00 -93.0 2Edge 58.3 314.1
WPCW (A) 19 501.26 3020.00 -95.1 2Edge 104.2 124.9
WPXI (D) 48 674.31 1000.00 -95.1 2Edge 30.5 157.5
WPCB-TV (A) 40 627.26 4900.00 -95.9 2Edge 47.2 139.8
WQEX (A) 16 483.25 661.00 -96.6 2Edge 33.7 153.4
WWCP-TV (D) 29 560.31 877.22 -100.8 2Edge 102.6 125.5
WPMY (D) 42 638.31 81.64 -100.9 2Edge 27.2 154.7
WQED (D) 38 614.31 760.00 -101.5 2Edge 33.7 153.4
WYTV (D) 36 602.31 50.00 -106.5 2Edge 56.6 312.9
WNNB-LP (A) 66 783.25 12.77 -107.9 2Edge 14.8 270.5
WPCW (D) 49 680.31 431.00 -108.2 2Edge 47.2 139.8
WTOV-TV (A) 9 187.26 316.00 -109.2 2Edge 57.9 224.0
WQEX (D) 26 542.31 50.00 -110.4 2Edge 33.7 153.4
WPCB-TV (D) 50 686.31 327.08 -111.0 2Edge 47.2 139.8
WIIC-LP (A) 27 549.26 72.99 -113.5 2Edge 33.7 153.4
WBPA-LP (A) 30 567.26 12.23 -114.1 2Edge 26.8 157.3
The good news is that some of the channels do seem to be receivable. Also, if you don't care about analog channels, then you don't need to bother with VHF. The bad news is that it will be an antenna installation challenge to get more than a handful channels.

Good luck!

Best regards,
Andy

andy.s.lee

02-23-07, 08:17 PM

Even a rooftop antenna should have high gain and be installed as high as possible to pick up these channels with any degree of stability.
Here's the same location, but assuming a higher antenna installation. This is based on an approximation for a 2 story house with the antenna installed on the roof using a 10 foot mast.

As you can see in the following list, the added height can make about a 10 dB difference on some of the channels due to the reduced diffraction angle. It's still not line-of-sight, but it is definitely better.

Callsgn Type Chan Freq Tx_kW Rx_dBm Path Dist Azimuth
KDKA-TV (A) 2 55.24 100.00 -55.8 2Edge 26.9 157.2
WPXI (A) 11 199.25 316.00 -67.3 2Edge 30.5 157.5
WPMY (A) 22 519.25 3800.00 -69.8 2Edge 47.1 130.8
WQED (A) 13 211.24 316.00 -75.2 2Edge 33.7 153.4
WKBN-TV (A) 27 549.25 871.00 -77.3 1Edge 56.9 311.9
WFMJ-TV (A) 21 513.24 2624.19 -78.8 2Edge 58.3 314.1
KDKA-TV (D) 25 536.31 1000.00 -80.2 2Edge 26.9 157.2
WTAE-TV (A) 4 67.26 100.00 -82.2 2Edge 56.4 149.5
WKBN-TV (D) 41 632.31 700.00 -82.3 1Edge 56.9 311.9
WPGH-TV (A) 53 705.26 2340.00 -83.5 2Edge 27.2 154.7
WPGH-TV (D) 43 644.31 502.13 -86.9 2Edge 27.2 154.7
WPCB-TV (A) 40 627.26 4900.00 -88.7 2Edge 47.2 139.8
WPXI (D) 48 674.31 1000.00 -88.9 2Edge 30.5 157.5
WQEX (A) 16 483.25 661.00 -89.6 2Edge 33.7 153.4
WJAC-TV (A) 6 83.25 70.80 -91.0 2Edge 105.0 111.5
WYTV (A) 33 585.25 912.00 -91.9 2Edge 56.6 312.9
WFMJ-TV (D) 20 506.31 200.00 -92.2 2Edge 58.3 314.1
WWCP-TV (A) 8 181.24 111.03 -92.4 2Edge 102.6 125.5
WQED (D) 38 614.31 760.00 -94.4 2Edge 33.7 153.4
WPMY (D) 42 638.31 81.64 -95.4 2Edge 27.2 154.7
WPCW (A) 19 501.26 3020.00 -95.6 2Edge 104.2 124.9
WTOV-TV (A) 9 187.26 316.00 -97.9 2Edge 57.9 224.0
WPCW (D) 49 680.31 431.00 -100.9 2Edge 47.2 139.8
WWCP-TV (D) 29 560.31 877.22 -101.4 2Edge 102.6 125.5
WNNB-LP (A) 66 783.25 12.77 -102.6 2Edge 14.8 270.5
WQEX (D) 26 542.31 50.00 -103.4 2Edge 33.7 153.4
WPCB-TV (D) 50 686.31 327.08 -103.6 2Edge 47.2 139.8
WIIC-LP (A) 27 549.26 72.99 -106.2 2Edge 33.7 153.4
WYTV (D) 36 602.31 50.00 -106.8 2Edge 56.6 312.9
WBPA-LP (A) 30 567.26 12.23 -107.8 2Edge 26.8 157.3
WTAE-TV (D) 51 692.31 873.32 -111.8 2Edge 56.4 149.5
WNEO (A) 45 657.26 1820.00 -115.0 2Edge 68.1 288.1
WJMB-LP (A) 44 651.26 0.12 -119.2 2Edge 29.4 46.6
WWBP-LP (A) 31 573.26 0.03 -119.6 2Edge 9.4 254.0
Best regards,
Andy

garsh

02-24-07, 05:51 AM

The bad news is that it will be an antenna installation challenge to get more than a handful channels.I figured the hills around me would make it hard to pick up anything. None of the analog channels look good, but I only care about the digital channels. Out of the digital channels you listed, here's what I'm actually able to see with my attic-mounted antenna:

I am able to receive these ones with little problem. This is with the antenna pointed towards Pittsburgh. Yes, I'm a bit surprised that WKBN Youngstown comes in so well:
Callsgn Type Chan Freq Tx_kW Rx_dBm Path Dist Azimuth
WKBN-TV (D) 41 632.31 700.00 -82.3 1Edge 56.9 311.9
KDKA-TV (D) 25 536.31 1000.00 -85.5 2Edge 26.9 157.2
WPGH-TV (D) 43 644.31 502.13 -92.7 2Edge 27.2 154.7
WPXI (D) 48 674.31 1000.00 -95.1 2Edge 30.5 157.5
WWCP-TV (D) 29 560.31 877.22 -100.8 2Edge 102.6 125.5
WPMY (D) 42 638.31 81.64 -100.9 2Edge 27.2 154.7I can sometimes get enough of a signal to pull these in. I'm thinking that an amplifier might help me here, since the wife would frown on a 10' mast-mounted antenna sitting on our roof ;) :
WQED (D) 38 614.31 760.00 -101.5 2Edge 33.7 153.4
WPCB-TV (D) 50 686.31 327.08 -111.0 2Edge 47.2 139.8
WTAE-TV (D) 51 692.31 873.32 -111.8 2Edge 56.4 149.5I can receive these stations if I aim my antenna towards Youngstown instead of Pittsburgh:
WFMJ-TV (D) 20 506.31 200.00 -93.0 2Edge 58.3 314.1
WYTV (D) 36 602.31 50.00 -106.5 2Edge 56.6 312.9And I've never been able to pull in these stations:
WPCW (D) 49 680.31 431.00 -108.2 2Edge 47.2 139.8
WQEX (D) 26 542.31 50.00 -110.4 2Edge 33.7 153.4Thanks Andy! That's a pretty neat tool you have there. :)

dw102800

02-24-07, 06:25 AM

garsh

02-24-07, 11:11 AM

question: is moving to sewickley going to screw up my OTA bliss?If you're using an indoor antenna, the main issue is going to be the building you live in, and whether the materials & items within it block signals.

RocketFoot

02-24-07, 03:15 PM

well, I got my roof top antenna hooked up! I can get wtae and kdka with 67 signal strength, but still no WPXI. I even get the regular uhf wpxi clear as a bell, but no digital?? Is this normal?

andy.s.lee

02-24-07, 03:27 PM

I moved to the burgh from NYC last year, and lived for a bit in munhall (the waterfront apts) and got pretty bad reception from my silver sensor indoor antenna. I just moved to squirell hill and now get six OTA channels perfectly with my little bitty antenna. I am using a fusion gold usb tuner with my media center.

question: is moving to sewickley going to screw up my OTA bliss?
It will depend somewhat on where you're located. Your poor reception at the Waterfront Apartments was mostly due to the low altitude and blockage from surrounding hills. Squirell Hill, on the other hand, is on high ground and well situated to pick up channels from all around.

Sewickley is mostly lower terrain, being next to the river. However, parts of Sewickley are up in the hills. Your channel availability will depend on the location of your new residence. In general, higher is better. It's also going to be further away from some of the transmitters like WPCW(D) and WPMY(A), so you might also ask yourself which broadcasts you actually care about.

If you are restricted to only using indoor antennas, then having your antenna in a room facing toward the transmitters will also help. You may want to check your building orientation relative to the local transmitters (see attached map).

In general, most of Sewickley is low and will not get reception as good as Squirell Hill, and it's especially bad along the base of the hills toward the north-west. However, if you manage to find a place at the top of a hill, there are some spots that get a ton of channels. When it comes to OTA reception, it's all about location, location, location... :)

Best regards,
Andy

andy.s.lee

02-25-07, 12:58 AM

Out of the digital channels you listed, here's what I'm actually able to see with my attic-mounted antenna:

I am able to receive these ones with little problem. This is with the antenna pointed towards Pittsburgh. Yes, I'm a bit surprised that WKBN Youngstown comes in so well:
Callsgn Type Chan Freq Tx_kW Rx_dBm Path Dist Azimuth
WKBN-TV (D) 41 632.31 700.00 -82.3 1Edge 56.9 311.9
KDKA-TV (D) 25 536.31 1000.00 -85.5 2Edge 26.9 157.2
WPGH-TV (D) 43 644.31 502.13 -92.7 2Edge 27.2 154.7
WPXI (D) 48 674.31 1000.00 -95.1 2Edge 30.5 157.5
WWCP-TV (D) 29 560.31 877.22 -100.8 2Edge 102.6 125.5
WPMY (D) 42 638.31 81.64 -100.9 2Edge 27.2 154.7I can sometimes get enough of a signal to pull these in. I'm thinking that an amplifier might help me here, since the wife would frown on a 10' mast-mounted antenna sitting on our roof ;) :
WQED (D) 38 614.31 760.00 -101.5 2Edge 33.7 153.4
WPCB-TV (D) 50 686.31 327.08 -111.0 2Edge 47.2 139.8
WTAE-TV (D) 51 692.31 873.32 -111.8 2Edge 56.4 149.5I can receive these stations if I aim my antenna towards Youngstown instead of Pittsburgh:
WFMJ-TV (D) 20 506.31 200.00 -93.0 2Edge 58.3 314.1
WYTV (D) 36 602.31 50.00 -106.5 2Edge 56.6 312.9And I've never been able to pull in these stations:
WPCW (D) 49 680.31 431.00 -108.2 2Edge 47.2 139.8
WQEX (D) 26 542.31 50.00 -110.4 2Edge 33.7 153.4Thanks Andy! That's a pretty neat tool you have there. :)
So it looks like your receivability cutoff is somewhere around -110 dBm, give or take a few dB. That's actually pretty good. It would seem your antenna is doing a good job pulling in channels at such low levels.

A pre-amp may help. Amps will not make an antenna any more sensitive than it already is, but it can make up for some losses due to long cable runs, splitters, and insertion loss at various connection points.

RG-6 cable will lose about 6 dB of signal level at high UHF frequencies for every 100 feet of cable. If you install a good quality pre-amp near the antenna (before most of the cable loss), you will only lose about 2 dB (because even good amps introduce a finite amount of noise).

The advantage is that no matter how long your cable run is (within the capabilities of the amp), you will never lose any more of the original signal-to-noise ratio. In other words, you've maximized your signal quality regardless of cable length.

If you only have about 10 feet of cable between your antenna and your TV, then it's probably better not to use an amp. That's because the 10 feet of cable will only cause a loss of less than 1 dB of SNR. If you used an amp in this case, you'd actually lose more than 2 dB of SNR because the "noise figure" of most amps is between 2.0 and 3.5 dB.

On the other hand, if you have over 40 feet of cable or if you ever split the signal, then you're sure to come out ahead by using an amplifier. The noise figure of the amp is bound to be less than the losses you would have incurred without the amp. FYI, a 2-way splitter will usually cause a 4 to 5 dB loss.

For most people, having an amp just below the antenna is a good thing. Amps like the Channel Master 7777 have a low noise figure and will help most people get the most out of what their antenna can deliver.

Best regards,
Andy

dfiler

02-26-07, 08:26 AM

I have 3D RF modeling software that can compute signal strengths at any location if you'd like to check out your specific coordinates. I haven't had time to create a web interface for the tools yet, so for now I just generate the results individually. Just give me your coordinates if you're interested.Thanks for the map, it is really quite fascinating.

Out of curiosity, what program is used to generate it? I see stuff like this and immediately wish it were a publicly available google earth layer.

Why do I need an RF reception map? I don't know, but I still spent 10 minutes pondering the equations used to generate the map. I'm guessing a contour map is all that's needed for initial data.

What I found interesting is that areas of constant receptivity seemed to be more heavily populated, no matter whether reception in the area is consistently bad or good.

larrybpsu

02-26-07, 05:52 PM

Howdy Gang!

First post, but I've been on the site for a couple of weeks now.

I'm down south in Fayette County, and I'm trying my hand at some DTV reception. I've got a RS 190XR antenna, with rotor, on a 25' mast, and it's bugging me that I can't get channel 11 in at all. KDKA and WTAE are coming in, but I do have to swing the antenna around to get enough signal.

Perhaps Andy can whip up of some of those beautiful maps of McClellandtown? (39.889456, -079.870682) :) Even those charts for garsh show some nice info, and perhaps they could tell me a story, too.

I'm thinking that the only way I'll get more DTV signal is when analog is finally shut down, allowing most of the other stations to amp up the output. Mounting a higher antenna is an expensive option at this point. :(

andy.s.lee

02-26-07, 07:02 PM

Thanks for the map, it is really quite fascinating.
I think so too. I post my results here in case other people find them as interesting as I do.

Out of curiosity, what program is used to generate it? I see stuff like this and immediately wish it were a publicly available google earth layer.
These are programs that I've written. I'm contemplating making some of the tools available via a web interface (e.g., radar plot generation). It will depend on how much time I have to work on it.

I do make some of my coverage maps into Google Earth overlays. It's a really nice way to visualize the RF environment in 3D.

Why do I need an RF reception map? I don't know, but I still spent 10 minutes pondering the equations used to generate the map. I'm guessing a contour map is all that's needed for initial data.
Here's what goes into the modeling software:

1) Transmitter database. I download this directly from the FCC's web site. It includes all broadcaster applications, license grants, construction permits, STAs (temporary experimental licenses), and other records. Each record gives me transmitter coordinates, antenna height, transmission power, frequency, and antenna ID.

2) Antenna pattern database. I also get this from the FCC's web site. Many broadcasters use directional antennas so that they can direct most of their transmit power to the places that need it. The FCC also requires that broadcasters have this information on file so that they can evaluate license applications for coverage estimation and interference with other broadcasters.

3) Terrain database. This comes from the Shuttle Radar Topography Mission (SRTM) data, also for free. This provides terrain elevations for most of the planet (between +/- 60 degrees lat) with a level of accuracy and coverage that has not been generally available before. I now use a cleaned up version of this database that fixes many of the common anomalies that were found in the original SRTM data.

4) Longley-Rice Irregular Terrain Model. This is an RF propagation model based on physics. It takes into account the capacitive / conductive properties of the ground, the curvature of the Earth, and the propagation characteristics of the radio waves as they pass over a given terrain path. It is the same algorithms that the FCC standardized on for evaluating license applications. However, much of the FCC's software have their roots in the 1960s, long before we had the detailed terrain data and number crunching power that we have today. As such, the models I generate are far more detailed than anything the FCC makes available. I can now do all this analysis on my PC today, but just 10 years ago this level of processing was something to be left for supercomputers. Thank goodness for Moore's Law.

5) Transmitter corrections. Due to errors in the FCC databases, I've found it necessary to create my own custom transmitter definitions that "override" any erroneous records I find. I've seen a few different kinds of errors in the FCC data including wrong type assignment (e.g., analog labeled as digital), wrong transmitter coordinates, etc. If someone points out an error in my FCC data, I can create a custom entry in my database to fix it.

The processing goes as follows:

1) For a given coordinate, find all the transmitters within some radius of interest.

2) For each of those transmitters, compute the terrain profile between the transmitter and the user's location.

3) Take the transmitter height, antenna pattern, transmit power, transmit frequency, terrain profile, and receiver height and run that through the Longley-Rice model. Repeat 2 & 3 for each transmitter.

4) Print / save / map / analyze the parameters of interest.

A radar plot type output requires this to be done once for any given point.

If I'm generating a map (like a Google Earth overlay), then this analysis must be done many times to fill in my coverage area of interest. I'm essentially simulating all the points within a rectangular coverage area. The amount of detail and resolution I want in the simulation dictate how fast or slow all this processing takes.

What I found interesting is that areas of constant receptivity seemed to be more heavily populated, no matter whether reception in the area is consistently bad or good.
Yep. It usually works out that way. Every broadcaster is faced with the same problem: How do you serve the greatest number of customers while minimizing the cost of transmitter construction and maintenace? Most broadcasters will come up with very similar solutions. The usual answer is to build a single transmitter on the highest mountain overlooking the most populated areas.

If the demographics for an area change or if there's a growing population outside a broadcaster's primary coverage footprint, then translator stations or additional transmitter facilities are built.

It's a lot easier in areas with wide open flat terrain. The broadcasters are happy and the customers are happy. Deep valleys and terrain obstructions make things a lot more difficult for any terrestrial RF technology (e.g. FM, cell phones, etc.).

I'm glad you found this interesting. Thanks for the comments.

Best regards,
Andy

andy.s.lee

02-26-07, 08:09 PM

I'm down south in Fayette County, and I'm trying my hand at some DTV reception. I've got a RS 190XR antenna, with rotor, on a 25' mast, and it's bugging me that I can't get channel 11 in at all. KDKA and WTAE are coming in, but I do have to swing the antenna around to get enough signal.

Perhaps Andy can whip up of some of those beautiful maps of McClellandtown? (39.889456, -079.870682) :) Even those charts for garsh show some nice info, and perhaps they could tell me a story, too.
Here is the radar plot analysis for your location. Maps take a lot more processing time, so you'll have to wait. Things can go faster if anyone's willing to put forth a Core 2 Quad computer (hey, they even make dual-Quad machines now, meaning 8 cores!). :)

The format of the radar plot is evolving since I'm trying to develop them into some kind of web accessible tool. Recommendations for improvements are welcome.

From a cursory inspection, it looks like you're in a really tough spot. Very few of the channels are line-of-sight and all the channels you're trying to get are in that "difficult to get" range. If you don't already have one, I'd suggest trying a pre-amp to make the most out of the SNR available to you.

Are you talking about the digital channels or the analog? WPXI analog is on channel 11, while their digital is on channel 48.

The 190XR is an OK combo antenna, but you can get a few dB more gain out of UHF-only antennas like the Channel Master 4228 8-bay or the AntennasDirect XG91 Yagi. These high gain antennas are even more sensitive to pointing accuracy and you'd have to deal with VHF separately (if you care for any of those channels), but they should pull in a little more signal.

I don't suppose you're considering moving or perhaps installing an incredibly tall mast?

I hope this helps.

Best regards,
Andy

larrybpsu

02-26-07, 08:50 PM

Andy,

Wow, thanks for the quick reply!

I work with computers...and could help out with some of the calculations. I usually have about a dozen of them here at the house running Folding @ Home. If Verizon would allow me to host a web server, I'd let you host some of your programs here.

I was referring to channel 11 digital. 11 analog is even hard to pickup with some terrible FM waves in the picture. I actually pickup 9 better than 11. Reception of 53 analog is really poor, too.

I agree, that I'm in a really tough spot for getting some stations. :( I live on a half acre, so I could probably consider a higher mast for the antenna. How high can I (afford to) go? The 190XR is about 3 years old, installed when I moved in. No amp on it at the present, and I was considering a UHF only replacement this summer.

andy.s.lee

02-27-07, 03:56 AM

Wow, thanks for the quick reply!
You're welcome. I guess you caught me on a good day!

I work with computers...and could help out with some of the calculations. I usually have about a dozen of them here at the house running Folding @ Home. If Verizon would allow me to host a web server, I'd let you host some of your programs here.
Thanks for the sentiment. I guess the biggest number crunching bottleneck would be map generation. It takes sheer processing horsepower to go through the trillions of computations necessary to simulate an entire map. I've managed to get it to the point where most of my processing jobs take only minutes to hours instead of the days to weeks it used to take.

My now "old" dual-core Althlon 64 X2 3800+ is pretty fast, but I've estimated that the same stuff would run about 6 times faster on the latest 8-core Intel machines that are rolling out (faster FSB, faster CPU, and 4x the number of cores). Things just keep getting better and I'm loving it.

Cluster computing technologies like Folding@Home (and BOINC) are great, but not applicable to this type of number crunching because of the huge data sets involved. The US terrain data is over 9GB, and even localized processing sets would be on the order of 1GB. On the other hand, a Beowulf cluster might be very effective at tackling this. Either way, it's all interesting to me, so if there's ever a chance to work on such a project, I'd be up for it.

Then again, in another 5 years, I'll probably have my 20 GHz, 64 core desktop spitting these things out in a matter of seconds... :)

I agree, that I'm in a really tough spot for getting some stations. :( I live on a half acre, so I could probably consider a higher mast for the antenna. How high can I (afford to) go? The 190XR is about 3 years old, installed when I moved in. No amp on it at the present, and I was considering a UHF only replacement this summer.
Based on what I can tell from Google Earth, your main obstacle is the hill about 4500 feet NNW of your location. It is directly between you and Pittsburgh and it's about 150 feet higher than you. You will gain about 15 dB of signal strength on most Pittsburgh stations if you go that high. You'll probably be able to receive all of them at that point. However, you need to ask yourself how much is it worth it for those extra handful of digital channels?

Probably the best thing to do is start with the cheap / easy stuff. Inspect your current antenna for any damage. Install a pre-amp. Make sure the antenna is as high as possible on the existing mast and that it's stable in the wind. Also check the connectors and cable for good weather protection. Any water (precipitation or condensation) that gets inside the connectors or cable will dramatically attenuate your signal. Whether or not you decide to switch to a new antenna at this point is up to you.

You might start getting the channels you want with a little system cleanup. If not, then it's time to start thinking about more drastic alternatives.

How much have you used Google Earth? If you've got a really good 3D graphics card and know your way around Google Earth, I can give you an overlay file that will let you zoom in and pan around the RF environment in 3D. You'll quickly get a feel for what I mean about hills and valleys being difficult places. You'll need to PM your email address to me so that I can directly send the ~500k file to you.

Best regards,
Andy

andy.s.lee

02-27-07, 02:29 PM

How much have you used Google Earth? If you've got a really good 3D graphics card and know your way around Google Earth, I can give you an overlay file that will let you zoom in and pan around the RF environment in 3D. You'll quickly get a feel for what I mean about hills and valleys being difficult places.
It turns out that the file compressed better than I expected, so it's small enough for me to post for everyone's perusal.

To use this file, you must be using Google Earth 4.0 or later. A very good graphics card (recent vintage ATI or nVidia) is almost mandatory to make the 3D drawing work smoothly.

You should turn the vertical exaggeration to 3 (max) in the options to make the terrain hills and valleys easier to see.

If you zoom in, tilt the view down, and rotate the view, you'll see how every hilltop is lit up and every valley is in a dark hole. It should become clear why good TV reception is dependent on location, location, location(, and height). :)

Let me know if you have any problems with this file.

Best regards,
Andy

dfiler

02-27-07, 02:43 PM

Excellent! I can't wait to get home and try this.

I frequently preach the significance of google earth. It'll likely become google's crown jewel, eclipsing even their text based search results. Eventually, everything will be inspectable via google earth. Google earth layers and objects will be a good percentage of all returned search results.

So when I get home, I'll fire up google earth and fly around my neighborhood's RF receptivity field. (What is the correct term for this visualization?) Much thanks!

Google earth really blows my mind at 1920x1200 with all options enabled and compression disabled. On a 24" iMac, it performs like a high-res flight simulator, absolutely flawless.

dfiler

02-27-07, 02:59 PM

Now that I think about it, all television stations need a .kmz (google earth) file that represents reception levels from their broadcast antennas.

It would be unbelievably cool to be able to toggle on and off each station with a check box. Even better, have two visualization color schemes. One which best conveys relative reception levels and another which is color coded to antenna type needed to receive the station.

There probably isn't much money in the idea but there is no denying that it is the future. It's just a question of who provides the visualization and when.

For now, all the other cities will have to be jealous of our thread's Mr. Lee and the cool stuff he has provided. ;)

andy.s.lee

02-27-07, 03:06 PM

So when I get home, I'll fire up google earth and fly around my neighborhood's RF receptivity field. (What is the correct term for this visualization?)
The kmz file contains a layer showing number of receivable TV channels (both analog and digital). The coloring scheme is arbitrary, but fairly straightforward: green=lots of channels, red=not much there.

When I run the simulation processing, since the software is going through the trouble of all the computations, I simultaneously generate other layers in addition to the one above. I also estimate analog-only channels, digital-only, signal strengths of analog, digital, or both, as well as about a dozen other things that only matter to me and the company I work for.

There are even more cool hypothetical things I could do, but haven't tried yet. For example, the file given here shows receivability on the ground, but it should also be possible to compute the receivability at various elevations above ground. Instead of just a 2D ground map, you would get a 3D volumetric simulation. Of course, the computational requirements for such a project would be obscene and I haven't found any good way to visualize that kind of information yet, but I bet it would be fascinating to see. It would be like watching RF energy as you're flying through it! Maybe someday... :)

Google earth really blows my mind at 1920x1200 with all options enabled and compression disabled. On a 24" iMac, it performs like a high-res flight simulator, absolutely flawless.
I created the kmz/zip file on Google Earth for Windows, so I'm not sure if you'll come across any compatability issues loading it on a Mac. Let me know if you have any problems with the file.

Best regards,
Andy

larrybpsu

02-27-07, 03:25 PM

Nice work Andy!

For those of you taking a peek at my place, the antenna is located at:

39 53' 21.39" 79 52' 14.53"W

It looks like I'm not in the worst spot on this particular map, but It would be nice to have an antenna up to the northeast on the folk's property. It's at the peak of a hill, about 75-100' higher than my property.

Might it be worth looking into a second rotor for my antenna? I'll have to dig around again, but I remember reading somewhere that some folks have two rotors. One for compass direction, and a second to tilt it on the Z axis? I'm not sure what the technical term for that is. Doh! Might that be a real help for picking up reflected-bouncing signals?

andy.s.lee

02-27-07, 04:10 PM

It looks like I'm not in the worst spot on this particular map, but It would be nice to have an antenna up to the northeast on the folk's property. It's at the peak of a hill, about 75-100' higher than my property.
If you can do that with a very long cable run, that would be great. You just need to make sure you have the right amount of amplification (too much is bad, too) to overcome any cable losses. At the hill top, you can receive just about everything without much difficulty and then just pipe that down to your place.

Might it be worth looking into a second rotor for my antenna? I'll have to dig around again, but I remember reading somewhere that some folks have two rotors. One for compass direction, and a second to tilt it on the Z axis? I'm not sure what the technical term for that is. Doh! Might that be a real help for picking up reflected-bouncing signals?
That's not likely to help. Your antenna has a pretty wide vertical radiation pattern, so a few degrees of vertical tilt will not make any difference. Some other antennas have tighter vertical beam widths, in which case you might care.

In either case, just do the math. If the majority of the signal you are trying to capture is diffracting off the top edge of a nearby hill, compute the elevation angle between your antenna and the ridge line. For small deflection angles, I don't think antenna tilt will matter. In your case with the Pittsburgh channels, the obstructing hill is about 4400 feet away and about 150 feet higher than your antenna. This amounts to only about a 2 degree elevation angle. That's too small to affect anything.

Best regards,
Andy

garsh

02-27-07, 07:27 PM

...but it should also be possible to compute the receivability at various elevations above ground. Instead of just a 2D ground map, you would get a 3D volumetric simulation. Of course, the computational requirements for such a project would be obscene and I haven't found any good way to visualize that kind of information yet...I've actually thought about that a bit.

It would be useful to be able to view a vertical plane that intersects the given location (ie, my house). Rotate that plane around the house to see how things change above and close by. For each station, show the boundaries between line-of-site reception and the diffraction edges. It would be neat to actually see how tall a tower I would need to get direct reception. :)

garsh

02-28-07, 07:48 AM

Here's an antenna tip. Be sure that you're coax is cut to length (or close to it). Do NOT coil your excess coax and tie it with wire ties. Coiled coax acts as a choke, and a choke will have a negative impact on the received signal at your set.Thanks, Dave! Us antenna newbies appreciate good advice! :)

I didn't have it coiled, but I decided to remove much of the "slack" in my line. I removed about 12' of cable, which was probably about half of the length. Didn't appear to make any difference, but I feel better doing all I can to get good reception.

garsh

02-28-07, 07:56 AM

How much have you used Google Earth? If you've got a really good 3D graphics card and know your way around Google Earth, I can give you an overlay file that will let you zoom in and pan around the RF environment in 3D. You'll quickly get a feel for what I mean about hills and valleys being difficult places.
I downloaded Google Earth (http://earth.google.com/) and the overlay file you created for larrybpsu. That is a pretty cool program, and your overlay is a really nice use of it! Could I get the overlay that you created for my area (Cranberry Township)? :)

I also found what I believe is a "glitch" in google earth's topology information. Take a look at the following coordinates from about 8000ft up. It looks like they mistook a couple of small ponds for 2000ft-high mountains:
Latitude: 40° 43' 03" N
Longitude: 80° 03' 20" W

andy.s.lee

02-28-07, 01:51 PM

I downloaded Google Earth (http://earth.google.com/) and the overlay file you created for larrybpsu. That is a pretty cool program, and your overlay is a really nice use of it! Could I get the overlay that you created for my area (Cranberry Township)? :)
Here you go! You can see by the direction of the shadows that most of the digital channels are coming from Pittsburgh, of course.

Best regards,
Andy

andy.s.lee

03-01-07, 01:58 PM

If you like playing with Google Earth and you live around Pittsburgh, here is a package that will let you visualize coverage and transmitter data for the city and its surrounding areas (up to about 35 miles). It's a fun way to find out if your address is in a good spot for getting OTA broadcasts or seeing which areas get the best TV coverage.

The file can be downloaded from here (http://home.comcast.net/~andy.s.lee/public/Pittsburgh_PA_-_OTA.kmz.zip) (1.15 MB).

What you need
Google Earth 4.0
a very good 3D graphics card
lots of RAM
a decent internet connection

What's in this package?

>>> Coverage maps that show you the "# of available channels" (not to be confused with "signal strength"). Getting the most out of the available channels will require an appropriate antenna / amp / receiver configuration for each unique situation. Both analog and digital layers are available (use check box to turn on/off). Channel availability is color coded as
Black = not much
Red = a handful
Yellow = a decent selection
Green = lots
White = tons

>>> Transmitter locations. This will let you see where the local transmitters are situated relative to your location. Both analog and digital data are present (use check box to turn on/off). Digital transmitters are colored Green, while Analog transmitters are colored Red.

Technical Details
FCC database snapshot was taken from 2/28/07
Coverage is done with coarse detail, roughly city block level resolution
Coverage spans a very large area, roughly 6000 sq. mi.
Over 1.4 million individual points were simulated to fill in this coverage map
It took about 6 hours to process the data

Other notes

- It's easier to visualize the terrain if you set the vertical exaggeration to 3 (max) in the Google Earth options.

- If set up correctly, there are some really easy ways to use the mouse to rotate and pan around. For example, on most setups with a "wheel mouse", it's possible to grab the terrain by holding down the middle button (the wheel itself) to spin the world around in 3D. Some useful shortcut keys are "N" (resets view to north being up), "U" (resets tilt to a straight top-down view), and "R" (resets both north-up and top-down orientation).

- Just because a lot of channels are available does not mean they're always easy to get. Depending on individual circumstances, the appropriate measures must be taken to deal with antenna selection, multipath, antenna orientation, system gain/attenuation, interference, receiver overload, etc. There are many other factors to consider in order to create the best possible viewing experience. This visualization tool is merely a starting point.

- The simulation assumes ground level reception (e.g., on the first floor of a building). If your antenna is mounted higher (e.g., in the attic, on the roof, or on a mast), you may very well receive more channels depending on how high the obstructions are relative to your antenna height.

- In some cases, the FCC database contains information about transmitters before they are actually built or turned on. This means that some of the transmitter data being shown here may represent the future location of a particular transmitter and therefore not be where you expect it to be. However, if you do come across any real FCC database errors, please let me know so that I can correct it for next time.

- Don't forget to have fun.

Best regards,
Andy

dmorrison

03-02-07, 10:11 AM

Andy...I'm a Google Earth Novice, and I've run into a problem. Perhaps you'll have a solution. When I try to open your recent Pittsburgh,PA - OTA.kmz file, I get the following error:

Fetch of C:/Documents and Settings/.../Pittsburgh, PA - OTA.kmz failed: Permission Denied.

I'm using Google Earth v. 4.0.2737

Any ideas? I've opened my firewall to Google Earth, but even when I close the firewall entirely it doesn't work. I'm ruling out my firewall for now.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

dmorrison

03-02-07, 10:27 AM

Never mind Andy...I made this work. I copied the kmz file to my desktop, and I renamed the file eliminating the comma in the file name (that part probably made no difference).

Dave

garsh

03-04-07, 12:36 PM

dmorrison!

Hockey Game!!!

Need HD!

Please! :eek:

stilholm

03-04-07, 01:36 PM

dmorrison!

Hockey Game!!!

Need HD!

Please! :eek:

I AGREE! I'm sick and tired of NBC screwing up hockey. Heck, they don't even have graphics up for the power play or penalty kill. Seems NBC has completely given up with hockey and is just trying to turn viewers away!

Get you act together NBC!!

garsh

03-04-07, 03:22 PM

larrybpsu

03-04-07, 03:55 PM

andy.s.lee

03-04-07, 07:49 PM

I've never been able to pull in these stations:
WPCW (D) 49 680.31 431.00 -108.2 2Edge 47.2 139.8
WQEX (D) 26 542.31 50.00 -110.4 2Edge 33.7 153.4
...but it should also be possible to compute the receivability at various elevations above ground. Instead of just a 2D ground map, you would get a 3D volumetric simulation. Of course, the computational requirements for such a project would be obscene and I haven't found any good way to visualize that kind of information yet...
I've actually thought about that a bit.

It would be useful to be able to view a vertical plane that intersects the given location (ie, my house). Rotate that plane around the house to see how things change above and close by. For each station, show the boundaries between line-of-site reception and the diffraction edges. It would be neat to actually see how tall a tower I would need to get direct reception. :)
Well garsh,

Here's my first attempt at looking at the issue of usable diffracted signal and its relationship to tower height. I've added two additional computations in the attached plot. In the table, there are two added columns labeled "LOS_hgt" and "Sugg_hgt".

The "LOS_hgt" indicates how high above your coordinates you would need to be in order to catch the LOS signal from the given transmitter. This is specified in meters above ground. As we had said before, none of the transmitters can reach your house via a direct path, but now we can see that most of their LOS paths are passing overhead about 50 meters (give or take) above ground.

The "Sugg_hgt" gives a rough idea of an antenna height where the diffracted signal strength is good enough to start picking up the channel. This value should be taken with a huge grain of salt since there are so many other factors that can affect actual receivability (antenna gain, receiver quality, multipath, unmodeled obstructions, etc.). However, the interesting thing to note is that these heights can be much less than the LOS height. That's because a fair amount of signal energy can bend around the edge of an obstruction as long as the diffraction angles remain small.

The actual selection of antenna height should be adjusted based on desired margins for error and individual circumstances. For example, installing a higher antenna will provide a greater buffer zone to handle fluctuations in multipath and bad weather conditions.

Don't read into the numbers too much since, after all, simulations are just a tool to help understand general trends. A whole lot of generalized assumptions had to be made in order to come up with these. I just did this as an interesting experiment to learn about LOS and diffraction limits.

It is interesting to note that the channels you said you could not receive have a higher "Sugg_hgt" than the rest of the channels. That would seem to indicate that the angle of diffraction is greater on these channels or that these frequencies cannot bend as far as some of the others.

Best regards,
Andy

garsh

03-05-07, 07:38 AM

Here's my first attempt at looking at the issue of usable diffracted signal and its relationship to tower height.Great stuff, Andy.

The next time I move, I'll be sure to get a house located at the top of a hill, or at least on the Pittsburgh-facing slope. ;)

PA_MainyYak

03-05-07, 09:05 AM

Gang,

Just an update on my recption issues down in Fayette County.

According to Andy's plots, and antennaweb, I'm not supposed to be able to pull in much DTV. My original setup was using a Samsung 2641 with a RS 190XR anntenna.

I broke down and picked up an RCA distribution amp from Home Depot. It's rated at a 25dB gain on the entire band. After wiring it in to the coax as it comes in the house....

WOW! :)

I can now get: KDKA, WTAE, WPXI, WPCB, WNPB, WPGH, and WPMY. Using the amp, I'm getting about 70+ on the signal strength meter on a US Digital STB I picked up from ebay last week. It's hooked up to my old RCA Colortrak 2000 set, and the PQ is really nice.

Other digital stations I have seen, but can't lock on to for long: WQED, WTAM, WWCP, the last two from around Altoona! I was just amazed that I could briefly pull them in, even just briefly. Still can't see WPCW.

On my list for the Spring is to get on my roof and get an amp for the antenna installed. That may pull in more stations. I saw one at the local Lowes, but forget what model it was.

So, for you folks in the 'fringe' areas....don't give up hope, and make sure to include an amp right after the anntenna.

and...

I agree! The Pens game should have been in HD. :(

The WWCP and WATM signals you're getting are mostly likely on channel 29 (will map as 8-1 and 8-2) and are transmitted from Somerset County, south of Johnstown.

As for WPCW (ch 49), well, they're not yet on the air. The owner of a low power station in Indiana, PA tossed a wrench in the works and the FCC has not yet ruled on all the legal issues before they grant a construction permit.

And finally, to confirm, NBC did not offer the Pens game in HD. WJAC also featured an SD version. I echo the sentiments of those who find NBC's hockey production less than stellar.

dmorrison

03-05-07, 11:33 AM

Now I'm wondering if NBC was even broadcasting this game in HD. Usually WPXI fixes it within the first few minutes, but today it didn't seem like they even tried. Plus, there were no graphics indicating that the broadcast was available in HD.

At least the "heart-attack kids" pulled out another dramatic shootout victory. :)

Sunday's hockey game was not provided by NBC in HD - it was an SD only game. Sorry guys...can't fix something that ain't broke!

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

garsh

03-05-07, 02:00 PM

Sunday's hockey game was not provided by NBC in HD - it was an SD only game. Sorry guys...can't fix something that ain't broke!Thanks Dave. I appreciate the info! :)
Zap2it (http://www.zap2it.com) had the game listed as an HD broadcast.

So that I may set my expectations accordingly, do you know if the game on the 25th will be high-definition?

larrybpsu

03-05-07, 09:46 PM

afiggatt

03-05-07, 10:36 PM

I'm looking to update the list of stations which are showing Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune in HD. I'm doing this for just the major markets which are not shown on the list in the Jeopardy HD thread. If I have read this thread correctly, WPXI shows Jeopardy and Wheel Of Fortune in the Pittsburgh market. I found the post from the WPXI station engineer from last October where he stated that they were working on a closed captioning problem for the HD broadcast. Is WPXI now broadcasting those shows in HD? Thanks.

dmorrison

03-06-07, 03:56 AM

If I have read this thread correctly, WPXI shows Jeopardy and Wheel Of Fortune in the Pittsburgh market. I found the post from the WPXI station engineer from last October where he stated that they were working on a closed captioning problem for the HD broadcast. Is WPXI now broadcasting those shows in HD? Thanks.

Yes, WPXI is airing Wheel and Jeopardy in HD under most circumstances. Of course, upconverted SD is our backup in case of HD problems.

Also,

So that I may set my expectations accordingly, do you know if the game on the 25th will be high-definition?

NBC hasn't told us yet if the game on the 25th is in HD. I do know that the Boston v. Detroit game on the 11th is in HD.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

hondo21

03-06-07, 09:29 AM

I searched this thread, and saw that it was mentioned last Sept....

Who can we complain to about the lip-sync issue on KDKA??

Someone brought up the sync issue in the Samsung thread, but I realized that it's present on my LCD, and my STB.

One other artifact I see with the KDKA-DT broadcast is that the upper right hand corner of the picture seems to shrink up a bit... like it curls up. Anyone else have the same issues?The KDKA-DT lip synch issue was mentioned in Rob Owen's TV Q&A in the Post-Gazette last Friday:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07061/766071-238.stm (near the bottom)Q: Will KDKA EVER fix their HD sound issues? I looked at old Q&As and saw that this was a problem back in 2005. The sound is out of sync every single night during "The Late Show." I'm forced to watch it in standard def. Boo!

-- Mike, Friendship

Rob: A solution may be on the way.

"Our engineering department has identified a failed decoder in the HD data stream," said KDKA general manager Chris Pike. "The unit has been sent back to the manufacturer, and we are working on a way to bypass it until it has been repaired. We apologize for the problem."I'll remain skeptical until I see it's actually fixed. It's been wrong for years.

afiggatt

03-06-07, 10:32 AM

Yes, WPXI is airing Wheel and Jeopardy in HD under most circumstances. Of course, upconverted SD is our backup in case of HD problems.
Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering
Thank you for the info! If you broadcast it in HD except for technical problems, that qualifies. Looks like there are more stations in the major DMAs broadcasting Jeopardy in HD than I would have guessed. If I am adding it up correctly, 20 stations out of the top 25 DMAs are currently airing Jeopardy and Wheel in HD (Pittsburgh being DMA #22). Pretty good numbers given that they only started providing Jeopardy in HD in September with not a lot of advance notice to the stations.

larrybpsu

03-06-07, 10:43 AM

The KDKA-DT lip synch issue was mentioned in Rob Owen's TV Q&A in the Post-Gazette last Friday:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07061/766071-238.stm (near the bottom)I'll remain skeptical until I see it's actually fixed. It's been wrong for years.
A sigh of relief! I thought that I would go insane if this wasn't a real problem. :)

casey10s

03-07-07, 12:36 PM

Is anyone having problems in picking up WQED digital channels? Ever since they put the 13.2 channel on, I have been having dropouts of the picture, signal strength problems, picture freezing. sound problems, pixelization, and whatever else you can think of. Lately it has been better but still not anywhere at the signal quality it was before. The signal strength is better but not as strong as before.

I have experimented in aligning the rooftop antenna but the problem is still there. I seem to be receiving all the other Pittaburgh stations as before.

jake65

03-08-07, 09:04 AM

here a general OTA question. and i will bring it home at the end, as to why it belongs in this forum.

Does any one notice (or am i nuts) that Live events look much better than recorded events? All the recorded events I watch (my name is earl, csi), faces and backgrounds look blocky. Live events, sports, American idle, Grammies look crystal clear! why is this? Is this a OTA thing? a camera thing? I actually noticed when I was watching the Daytona 500 that this varied camera to camera. because it varies I know its not my TV.

Saulinpa

03-10-07, 09:41 AM

MDK

03-11-07, 01:24 PM

Does any one notice (or am i nuts) that Live events look much better than recorded events? All the recorded events I watch (my name is earl, csi), faces and backgrounds look blocky. Live events, sports, American idle, Grammies look crystal clear! why is this? Is this a OTA thing? a camera thing? I actually noticed when I was watching the Daytona 500 that this varied camera to camera. because it varies I know its not my TV.

I think you're asking about scripted/edited shows versus real time (or nearly real time) broadcasts. In short - It's a camera thing. Most HD sitcoms/dramas are still captured on film, the way they have been for decades. This film is then developed and digitized for broadcast. Some shows, like CSI, manipulate the look of the show during post production, for "artistic effects". To me, it seems that all film tends to "flicker" somewhat, though some of this may be intentional effects...
Live sports, American Idol and the like are captured on digital video instead of film. For sporting events, broadcasters tend to use their best HD cameras for the best shots/angles, but we still see some SD (or wide SD) cameras used for car cams, blimp shots, goal cameras, etc. As HD cameras get smaller and cheaper, I expect we will see more consistent quality for sports broadcasts.

Scott Pgh

03-13-07, 09:40 AM

This is a very newbie-type question, and I apologize. I'm going to be a DirecTV subscriber as of tomorrow. My install includes an OTA antenna. DirecTVs local package does not include the PBS HD package. But will I still be able to pick it up, by virtue of having an OTA and the channel being available? Does the fact that I have an OTA not mean I can pick up all local HD channels, even if DirecTV doesn't carry them?

dfiler

03-13-07, 10:52 AM

Scott Pgh

03-13-07, 11:20 AM

Not only will you be able to pick up the local channels, they'll look better than if delivered by satellite. Off the air broadcasts are higher bit rate (use less compression) than other sources of HD.

Granted, getting adequate reception can involve significant trail and error. Reception of HD digital is an all or nothing affair. If a channel doesn't come in well, you won't be able to watch it at all. Solution... move the antenna or put a larger one higher in the air.

Thanks for your help.

From what I understand, the OTA is attached to the DirecTV dish. So, moving it will not be an option.

Also - how do I go about picking up the locals? I assume I will need to change my TV input to the non-satellite feed, then simply enter the channel number on the TV's tuner? Is that correct?

dfiler

03-13-07, 11:39 AM

Scott Pgh

03-13-07, 11:47 AM

Somewhere you'll need an ATSC (digital TV) tuner. These are typically built into DirectTV boxes or a new TV. Otherwise, you'll need a stand-alone tuner. The HD signal from a satellite is different from the HD signal broadcast OTA. However, some devices include tuners for both.

So - you're saying it's possible I'll be able to watch the PBS-HD channel, which DirecTV doesn't carry, by using the DirecTV box, as the channel will be picked up on the OTA they supply? If this is correct, what happens if the channel number for PBS-HD already happens to be used by DirecTV for one of their other channels?

dfiler

03-13-07, 11:52 AM

It depends on the model number of the directTV box. I don't know much about them so i can't answer.

Unfortunately, the world of HDTV isn't exactly user friendly yet. No matter the solution, it will require a bit of knowledge and configuration. The DirectTV installer should be able to point you in the right direction.

Deadeye

03-13-07, 02:04 PM

So - you're saying it's possible I'll be able to watch the PBS-HD channel, which DirecTV doesn't carry, by using the DirecTV box, as the channel will be picked up on the OTA they supply? If this is correct, what happens if the channel number for PBS-HD already happens to be used by DirecTV for one of their other channels?
If the OTA antenna is able to pick up a signal from the PBS-HD channel then it will show up as Channel # 13-1 on whatever HD receiver you are getting from DirecTV.

garsh

03-13-07, 02:07 PM

From what I understand, the OTA is attached to the DirecTV dish. So, moving it will not be an option.Here's an example of what it will look like (http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Amplified-Outdoor-Antenna-Satellite/dp/B0000APCIV). They generally aren't that good, since you can't aim them, but if you're close enough to the transmitters it may be fine. I think they may also have an amplifier built-in.

If you give your location, andy.s.lee may be able to come up with a nice table for you showing which stations you may be able to receive. :)

Scott Pgh

03-13-07, 03:58 PM

Here's an example of what it will look like (http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Amplified-Outdoor-Antenna-Satellite/dp/B0000APCIV). They generally aren't that good, since you can't aim them, but if you're close enough to the transmitters it may be fine. I think they may also have an amplifier built-in.

If you give your location, andy.s.lee may be able to come up with a nice table for you showing which stations you may be able to receive. :)

Thanks, and to Deadeye too. I did look at the one site that produces a chart based on your location on the map. It broke the different channels down into red, blue and violet (not sure what the distinctions there are though).

pghbob

03-15-07, 10:18 PM

hey KDKA, what gives with the pitt game in low-def? CBS has 1080i equip in this venue as evidenced by the DUKE game.

Deadeye

03-15-07, 10:55 PM

hey KDKA, what gives with the pitt game in low-def? CBS has 1080i equip in this venue as evidenced by the DUKE game.
KDKA can be pretty pathetic sometimes. Fortunately I'm able to watch the game in HD on WKBN out of Youngstown.

daverph1

03-15-07, 11:13 PM

Called KDKA, talked to someone who told me it is CBS decision because they are transferring between games, which makes no sense at all. He gave me a number in NY for CBS 212-575-3332. That person told me because Pgh is a constant market for this game, we don't get the HD feed. Here are some other numbers to call to voice your opinion. All 212-575- 1008, 2606, 3971 1796.

jake65

03-16-07, 10:35 AM

daverph1

03-16-07, 02:47 PM

Ticked off is much too mild, the only thing that would have made my night worse would have been a loss. Here's a thread to learn about how CBS is blowing it (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=819927) . Constant market means that if your home team is playing and KDKA wants to broadcast the entire game instead of being shuffled around to all of the games (flex feed in HD), KDKA can do so but CBS will only provide a SD feed for the constant market. In the past they let the stations broadcast one feed on HD digital channel and the other on SD, but now CBS says same feed at all times to both HD & SD. Some affiliates seem to be breaking that rule, but not KDKA. It all seems to stem from a cost issue as CBS doesn't have the equipment to send HD out to all. Despite the constant market promise, they did take us away to watch another game for about 5 minutes, which I could have cared less about. They seemed to hype the fact that all of the games this year would be in HD as opposed to half, which would probably be true if you were in a market that didn't have a team in the tournament. I have to find out if they will be pulling the same crap on Saturday, I may have time to pull my old D* receiver out and sign up for the weekend.

larrybpsu

03-17-07, 01:48 AM

While we're on the subject.....why isn't there another CBS affiliate in the area? I notice that I can almost receive 3 NBC stations (11, 9, 12) and potentially another ABC station (26)...but no other CBS station is around.

Just thinking out loud. :rolleyes:

garsh

03-17-07, 04:58 AM

While we're on the subject.....why isn't there another CBS affiliate in the area?Fortunately I'm able to watch the game in HD on WKBN out of Youngstown.But I guess only those of us North or West of Pittsburgh can pick it up.

WKBN, Youngstown, OH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WKBN-TV)

firemantom26

03-17-07, 08:04 AM

What is the possible ABC station?

garsh

03-17-07, 10:28 AM

What is the possible ABC station?WTAE, Pittsburgh, PA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTAE)
WYTV, Youngstown, OH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WYTV)

dxernut

03-17-07, 11:16 AM

pghbob

03-17-07, 02:43 PM

mike karas at kdka sent me this email regarding the constant sd feed we saw.

"During CBS Sports coverage of the Division I Men's Basketball
Tournament, the network of more than 200 affiliates is divided up into
as many as eight different audiences that are assigned to either move
from arena to arena, showcasing the entire festival of opening round
games; or to remaining fixed on a single game for audiences in a team's
home market (a considerably smaller audience).
You are in the home market for The University of Pittsburgh. In order to
keep the Pitt game on in your local market for the entirety of the game,
KDKA-TV is protected and receiving an analog signal from CBS. The growth
in the HD audience has simply outpaced the networking systems for this
complicated event. Next weekend and throughout the rest of the
tournament, with fewer games, we can assure you that every game will be
available in HD."

Scott Pgh

03-17-07, 03:55 PM

mike karas at kdka sent me this email regarding the constant sd feed we saw.
Next weekend and throughout the rest of the
tournament, with fewer games, we can assure you that every game will be
available in HD."

LOL - by that time Pitt may be out of it! VCU looks like they're going to be tough to beat!

garsh

03-17-07, 07:01 PM

LOL - by that time Pitt may be out of it! VCU looks like they're going to be tough to beat!It's looking pretty good for Pitt so far. :)

hondo21

03-18-07, 08:58 AM

It's looking pretty good for Pitt so far. :)Had 'em all the way. :eek:

Scott Pgh

03-18-07, 11:33 AM

CBS/KDKA really dropped the ball. Not only did we have to watch the SD feed, but they still broke away for large chunks of the game to watch the other games.

larrybpsu

03-21-07, 10:43 AM

Did anyone else notice the horrible audio sync problem on OTA KDKA-DT Tuesday night? I was trying to watch the Letterman show, but the audio was about half a second late. :( I really hope they get this fixed!

garsh

03-22-07, 01:42 PM

Hi Dave!

Concerning Sunday's NHL on NBC game, I asked:So that I may set my expectations accordingly, do you know if the game on the 25th will be high-definition?NBC hasn't told us yet if the game on the 25th is in HD.Has NBC made it known to WPXI yet? :)

dmorrison

03-23-07, 08:10 AM

Concerning Sunday's NHL on NBC game, I asked:Has NBC made it known to WPXI yet? :)

The Penguins/Bruins game is in HD on Sunday March 25th. Why garsh, do you know somebody who will be watching?

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

garsh

03-23-07, 03:03 PM

The Penguins/Bruins game is in HD on Sunday March 25th. Why garsh, do you know somebody who will be watching?:D

Thanks Dave!

garsh

03-25-07, 02:54 PM

hondo21

03-25-07, 06:01 PM

I noticed that the analog WPXI stayed with the Pens game while WPXI-DT switched to the NYR-NYI game in HD for awhile. Then at some point it returned to the Pens, but no longer in HD. That may have been NBC's fault though.

It really would be refreshing to have a completely unblemished HD broadcast from start to finish, with no drops to SD, no video or audio glitches, etc. Still a pretty rare occurrence in almost every HD show it seems.

dmorrison

03-26-07, 09:23 AM

UGH!

I was all set to praise WPXI for not screwing up the Penguins game this week, and then halfway through the 3rd period, NBC switches to a different game, and by the time WPXI gets the Penguins back on, we missed the 5th goal!

Plus, it's no longer a high-def broadcast. :eek:

ARRRGH! Okay...I've got something else on my plate for the day. Sorry for the fouled up hockey game. NBC places a lot of affiliate landmines when it comes to HD broadcasts (especially NHL games); somebody, somewhere stepped on one!

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

garsh

03-26-07, 11:22 AM

ARRRGH! Okay...I've got something else on my plate for the day. Sorry for the fouled up hockey game. NBC places a lot of affiliate landmines when it comes to HD broadcasts (especially NHL games); somebody, somewhere stepped on one!Thanks Dave!

I appreciate you posting here and giving the rest of us some insight into how complicated these things are. :)

PA_MainyYak

03-26-07, 08:21 PM

There have been some hints that WPXI is making ready for local news in HD once they move to their palatial new digs off I-279 at Evergreen Road. :) . (As if Dave needs one more thing for us to bi*** -er- complain about :p )

Apparently there may be multiple local HD newscasts sooner rather than later.
An article in Broadcast & Cable quoted in Swanni today indicates CBS is on a fast track to have all their O&O's (that would presumably include KDKA) doing HD local news by the end of this year.

dmorrison

03-27-07, 05:17 AM

There have been some hints that WPXI is making ready for local news in HD once they move to their palatial new digs in Greentree :) .

To set the record straight, our palatial new digs are right off I-279 at Evergreen Road. Here's a view of the new facility from our web cam: http://www.wpxi.com/wxcam/9497968/detail.html

Dave

PA_MainyYak

03-27-07, 08:20 AM

To set the record straight, our palatial new digs are right off I-279 at Evergreen Road. Here's a view of the new facility from our web cam: http://www.wpxi.com/wxcam/9497968/detail.html

Dave

As your signature indicates Dave, "Anytime you have a 50-50 chance of getting something right, there's a 90% probability you'll get it wrong."
Mea culpa!

It's starting to look like a pretty impressive plant.

dmorrison

03-27-07, 09:47 AM

It's starting to look like a pretty impressive plant.

Yes it is! And the engineering areas look huge, but of course when we fill it up, it will seem much smaller. The big deal for me is to get into the building early and grab a room for our ham shack!

Did you know that WPXI has a ham radio club? The club call is W3PXI for you trivia buffs out there!

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering.

aragon4004

03-28-07, 06:24 PM

Ive been reading these posts an notice that alot of people have a hard time getting WTAE. I live in Steubenville,Oh. and have no trouble getting ALL the Pitts. channels. WQED has an wonderful HD picture and WPIX is crystal clear. Go Steelers!
Go Steelers

dmorrison

03-29-07, 05:41 AM

I noticed that the analog WPXI stayed with the Pens game while WPXI-DT switched to the NYR-NYI game in HD for awhile. Then at some point it returned to the Pens, but no longer in HD. That may have been NBC's fault though.

I have a little more info on the March 25th NHL game on NBC. The way I understand it, NBC felt that the Penguin game was no longer competitive and decided to switch to the other, more competitive game on HD. When our operator saw that this happened, the decision was made to upconvert the Penguin game rather than leave the NYR-NYI game on HD. FYI: NBC's policy is that we are not allowed to air one game on SD and a different game on HD.

I'm so sorry that this happened. This should generate tons of complaints to NBC! They really, really screwed this up. They deserve whatever it is you all choose to dish out!

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

garsh

03-29-07, 07:19 AM

Thanks Dave. I fired off a nasty-gram to feedback@nbcsports.com. :)

Actually, I was quite civil, but tried to explain that their decision was very disappointing to anyone who was a fan of the Penguins.

Bob McLaughlin

03-29-07, 04:05 PM

And let's face it guys, the only period that really mattered in that game was the first one!
<runs and hides>

hondo21

03-30-07, 08:05 AM

Look for further PBS-HD signal degradation, as WQED begins to multicast another subchannel on June 1. The relentless march of quantity over quality continues.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07089/773665-237.stm

pktrvl

03-30-07, 09:26 AM

Is anyone else getting no signal from KDKA this morning?

pktrvl

03-30-07, 12:26 PM

My other box is picking it up. Must be something with my TIVO.

dxernut

04-06-07, 04:57 PM

Has anyone noticed this afternoon that WTAE 4.2 was on the air with live weather radar?

Dave Kasperek

04-06-07, 05:16 PM

Has anyone noticed this afternoon that WTAE 4.2 was on the air with live weather radar?

Yes. I helped put it there.

benji15301

04-06-07, 05:37 PM

Yes. I helped put it there.

Good job, Dave!

We've been waiting for this for a long time.

Stations in other markets did this a loooong time ago.

It is very convenient.

dxernut

04-07-07, 02:20 PM

To set the record straight, our palatial new digs are right off I-279 at Evergreen Road. Here's a view of the new facility from our web cam: http://www.wpxi.com/wxcam/9497968/detail.html

Dave
Dave, Will WPXI once they move to the new location ,microwave their signal to the old transmitter site on 11 television hill?I only ask for antenna aiming concerns.

dxernut

04-07-07, 02:26 PM

Yes. I helped put it there.
Good job Dave, Doppler comes in handy. Now if the "BIG K" would do something constructive like add the CW network on a sub that would be great.I thank WTAE and WPXI for doing something extra with their sub's. Now KDKA get with the program, you supposed to be a leader!

benji15301

04-08-07, 10:13 PM

Just when we thought we were getting a full-time doppler radar, it turns out to only be a clone of NBC's weather plus.

Completely insignificent.

Sigh!

dmorrison

04-09-07, 05:27 AM

Dave, Will WPXI once they move to the new location ,microwave their signal to the old transmitter site on 11 television hill?I only ask for antenna aiming concerns.

As I understand it, we'll be using the antenna we use now. There should be no need to repoint.

Dave

jake65

04-09-07, 08:39 AM

Regarding the Penquins...

I am surprised nobody has asked the obvious question this morning. "Is the NBC coverage of game 2 this saturday @ 3 going to be in HD?"

DrBri99

04-09-07, 09:12 AM

Regarding the Penquins...

I am surprised nobody has asked the obvious question this morning. "Is the NBC coverage of game 2 this saturday @ 3 going to be in HD?"

I think depends if the Pens are the National game or the 2nd teir game. The pens have been the national game 3 times so far this season, I'm hoping they will have the pens as the national game as it is the only way I can see them here in virginia.

PA_MainyYak

04-09-07, 11:08 AM

Yes. I helped put it there.

Well done!
Do you know whether there are any plans afoot to add ABC News Now as another sub channel?

hondo21

04-09-07, 11:33 AM

garsh

04-09-07, 12:06 PM

Why are people here celebrating the addition of subchannels? If you care anything about the quality of the HD picture on the main channel you know that multicasting is evil. Expect to see more artifacts and a duller, more lifeless picture on your HD on ABC from now on, just as we've seen from WPXI and any other multicasters. Well done? I think not.I don't watch any subchannels, but the couple times that I've flipped on WPXI's subchannel, I thought the quality of the sub channel's video was pretty bad. Plus, it's usually a fairly static image. Given the nature of the programming on these particular subchannels, you don't really need a really pretty picture or be able to support action well. This would imply that they are severely limiting how much of the bandwidth the subchannel can use. Therefore the quality of the main HD channel is probably not affected much at all.

I'd be curious to see how true this is. Would either of the Daves be able to shed any light on this subject? Oh, and dmorrison, are the two Penguins first-round playoff games to be shown on NBC going to be in HD? :)

Bob McLaughlin

04-09-07, 12:31 PM

Another person curious about the NBC Pens games. My usual online HD sports site has not been updated to reflect the playoffs.

dmorrison

04-09-07, 01:46 PM

Are the two Penguins first-round playoff games to be shown on NBC going to be in HD? :)

I know that NBC is airing Pittsburgh at Ottawa on Saturday at 3 pm and that VS has the Sunday game. I sure hope that they're in HD. When I learn more, I'll let you know.

And as far as subchannel quality, I tend to lean toward the position that garsh has.

Dave

garsh

04-09-07, 02:56 PM

...and that VS has the Sunday game.I'm all confused. The Post Gazette states that Versus will be carrying the other 5 games (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07099/776390-61.stm). But the Penguin's official website (http://www.pittsburghpenguins.com/team/features/arts/2448.0.php) says that they will be carried by FSN Pittsburgh. Could it be both?

Plus, AFAIK, Versus isn't available anywhere in HD, is it? And FSN hasn't updated their HD schedule (http://msn.foxsports.com/name/HD#FSPitt) yet, or they won't be available in HD there either.

garsh

04-10-07, 07:14 AM

I know this is slightly OT, but an update on the Penguins broadcast situation was posted by the Post Gazette (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07100/776617-194.stm). Basically, FSN Pittsburgh will show those 5 games in this market, and Versus will show at least some of those 5 nationally. But in Pittsburgh, Versus will be blacked out when they broadcast the same game as FSN Pittsburgh.

dxernut

04-10-07, 08:55 PM

As I understand it, we'll be using the antenna we use now. There should be no need to repoint.

Dave
Thanks Dave , that's good news to me, it's a great transmitter location, I'd hate to lose it!

Dave Kasperek

04-10-07, 10:09 PM

Well done!
Do you know whether there are any plans afoot to add ABC News Now as another sub channel?

No plans to add any other subchannels at this time. But who knows eventually?

Dave K

DrBri99

04-11-07, 09:26 AM

Check your online TV listings, I noticed my NBC station changed from "conference quaterfinal" to PENS vs. Senators. YEAH!

JK77

04-11-07, 10:18 PM

Hello all! I just got a Sony 42E2000 with built in HD tuner. I'm not really interested in upgrading my Dish DVR625 to HDTV just yet, but I am interested in trying OTA HD. Is there anyone in the Derry / Latrobe area with any news on how the Pittsburgh channels come in?

I live south of Latrobe and get very good signals from KDKA, WPXI, WPMY, WPCB, and WPGH with WTAE varying from day-to-day since it isn't in line with the other transmitters. From Johnstown I have only gotten WWCP.

I am not sure what type of antenna to get. I do have an old antenna stapped to the chimney 3 stories above the earth! I'd appreciate it if someone caould tell me everything I need to know about OTA...

I have an old Radio Shack VU-110 without a pre-amp about 20 feet off the ground.

JK77

04-11-07, 10:46 PM

Bob, the music video channel was discussed above I believe.

Basically, The Tube Music Network was airing locally on a subchannel of WPMY, but Sinclair quit broadcasting it in at their stations. The reason is apparently a dispute over FCC requirements that all channels, including subchannels, must have a minimum amount of educational content and support the Emergency Alert System. See the Wikipedia article I linked.

A music video channel that actually played music videos, what a concept! :D I still get the video on my satellite dish, but since I don't have AC-3 output on my receiver, I can't get the audio. :(

Something tells me that Sinclair is using those mandates as a smokescreen, and that the real issue is The Tube wanted more money for carriage and they balked. Other station groups such as Tribune are still carrying The Tube on their digital station's subchannels. I e-mailed Sinclair asking what was going on and cited Tribune, but never received a reply. Now we have yet another SD channel, thanks Sinclair!

dmorrison

04-12-07, 04:37 AM

The Saturday 4/14 Pittsburgh @ Ottawa game on NBC will be in HD.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

garsh

04-12-07, 05:27 AM

The Saturday 4/14 Pittsburgh @ Ottawa game on NBC will be in HD.
Thanks for the info, Dave! :)

JK77

04-12-07, 06:13 PM

Has anyone noticed this afternoon that WTAE 4.2 was on the air with live weather radar?

I was surprised to see WTAE, and not KDKA, with a weather channel carrying AccuWeather content. When I interned there a few years back, the meteorologists at the time derogatorily referred to them as "AccuScare."

I would have bet on 4 going with ABC News Now and 2 with an AccuWeather channel.

JK77

04-12-07, 06:20 PM

Just when we thought we were getting a full-time doppler radar, it turns out to only be a clone of NBC's weather plus.

Completely insignificent.

Sigh!

It beats a SD simulcast of the main channel like 22 and 53, which are complete wastes of bandwidth. At least four's channel has a traffic ticker and more features like the local and regional radar that pop-up in the corner and ten day forecasts even though it is hard enough to accurately predict five days out let alone ten.

JK77

04-12-07, 08:10 PM

There have been some hints that WPXI is making ready for local news in HD once they move to their palatial new digs in Greentree :) . (As if Dave needs one more thing for us to bi*** -er- complain about :p )

Apparently there may be multiple local HD newscasts sooner rather than later.
An article in Broadcast & Cable quoted in Swanni today indicates CBS is on a fast track to have all their O&O's (that would presumably include KDKA) doing HD local news by the end of this year.

I saw that article as well. My opinion on HD news is it's fine, but no big deal. I'd rather take sports, movies, and shows in HD.

What I would like to see is PCNC on 11-3 for those of us who despise cable. However, I know that won't happen since it was formed as a cable-only entity, and Crapcast likes to have an "Ace up their sleeve" such as CSN-Philadelphia in SE PA to keep people away from dishes.

PA_MainyYak

04-13-07, 08:17 AM

I saw that article as well. My opinion on HD news is it's fine, but no big deal. I'd rather take sports, movies, and shows in HD.

What I would like to see is PCNC on 11-3 for those of us who despise cable. However, I know that won't happen since it was formed as a cable-only entity, and Crapcast likes to have an "Ace up their sleeve" such as CSN-Philadelphia in SE PA to keep people away from dishes.

I must admit, the thought of seeing Ken Rice's unibrow in HD makes me shudder :) - the important aspect of getting the local stations doing news in HD is that it requires an overall upgrade of the entire broadcast facility and therefore creates the opportunity for additional HD programming (aside from the network passthrough). It also is pretty much a given that once stations make the investment they will become far more active in promoting HD. More HD viewers = more demand for HD product = more demand by advertisers = "1-800-EMPIRE" commercials in HD (okay so we have to take the good, the bad, & the ugly) + more overall HD content .

carletondm

04-13-07, 11:02 AM

Is FSN Pittsburgh available OTA ?

Dennis

Bob McLaughlin

04-13-07, 02:42 PM

Thanks Dave! Now all we need is the Pens to show up...

Dennis: you can HSN, but not FSN OTA!

pghturbo88

04-13-07, 09:09 PM

JK77

04-13-07, 10:18 PM

Stumbled across this board and am enjoying it!!

Just wanted to share that I use a Radio Shack DA-5200 ($ 50) up in my attic to pull in my HD signals. I could not find a "sweet spot" position to get both WYTV and WTOV, so I put in an Channel Master antenna rotor ($100) from Lowe's.

I receive WTAE, WWCP, WTOV, WQED, WQEX (what a waste of a good digital signal), WFMJ, WPMY, KDKA, WJAC, Cornerstone 40, WKBN , WPXI, WNEO, and WPGH (in that order on my tuner.) I have even pulled in WEWS 05-1 from Cleveland, but that was a one-time deal on a very cold morning. I'm also wondering if PBS from Oakland, MD is doable this far north, or if I have a shot at WPSX from State College.

You're doing a lot better than I am. I can only get 6, 9, 13, and 16, but not their digital counterparts which is a real shame that I am missing ShopNBC in crisp digital :D. The WEWS lock-on was probably due to a tropo duct.

I am about 40 miles from Oakland and I can't even get 36 let alone the digital signal, the same with WWPB-24 out of Morgantown. WPSU's, which was WPSX, transmitter is in Clearfield and their coverage map (http://wpsu.org/about/coverage.html) shows it barely reaching SW PA.

Is there anything else out there that I am missing? I am eagerly awaiting WTRF and UPN 19 to go "live" in the digital domain. I have enjoyed the digital locals so much, that I dumped my locals from Dish Network. I also wonder if anyone else has had trouble with QED's SD programming being blank now and then.

WTRF's digital signal is on the air, but at very low power. I've heard it barely gets out of the Ohio Valley.

I too dumped the DISH locals once I got my set. Not only are the signals better quality, but I save $6/month.

garsh

04-14-07, 06:31 AM

Is there anything else out there that I am missing?
I'm surprised that you're getting WTAE in this area. Good job! I'm currently trying to find a good deal on an amplifier to see if that will help me with some of the weaker signals.

You're a little bit east of me, but you could probably pull in a few Youngstown stations if you aim your antenna correctly. I can get a handful when I point my antenna that way. I can even get the Youngstown CBS station with my antenna pointed towards Pittsburgh.

pghturbo88

04-14-07, 11:43 AM

I'm surprised that you're getting WTAE in this area. Good job! I'm currently trying to find a good deal on an amplifier to see if that will help me with some of the weaker signals.

I earlier posted the model number of the Radio Shack amplified antenna that I use, as I was pleasantly surprised with its performance. I tried using my old Radio Shack UHF yagi, along with an amplifier, and it cannot hold a candle to this antenna. The directional yagi was OK for analog UHF, but did not work as well as I would have thought on digital. I received the recommendation on this antenna from a Radio Shack store employee I knew back in grade school. His advice was simple -- if the antenna doesn't work, just bring it back (I didn't.) Again, the antenna rotor was a necessary enhancement to be able to not have nonexistent or pixellating video, hence, the dump of DISH locals.

I used to live in Cranberry (off of Rowan Rd.) and when I use the antennaweb site on my old address, I only get about 1/2 the listing I do for my current address, so I understand the possible frustration. We also have friends just over the hill in Adams Ridge that don't get very much either, but they are only using a tabletop amplified antenna.

pghturbo88

04-14-07, 11:51 AM

You're a little bit east of me, but you could probably pull in a few Youngstown stations if you aim your antenna correctly. I can get a handful when I point my antenna that way. I can even get the Youngstown CBS station with my antenna pointed towards Pittsburgh.

I think that I am getting everything that Youngstown has to offer now. The antenna rotor was necessary to get 33-WYTV, and when I'd point it there, I'd lose 09-WTOV and I'd also have problems with the Pittsburgh stations. I actually get the highest signal strength on WFMJ, not the Pittsburgh stations. WPXI actually gives me the most fits, believe it or not, especially on windy days.

It's also neat that WWCP-08-01 went to HD recently. The extra network stations are great, especially during football season. Too bad the ABC-23 station on 08-02 is still SD.

Finally, with regard to news in HD, NBC is doing the Brian Williams Nightly newscast in HD, but only WPXI carries it. WFMJ still shows it in SD. Most network morning shows are now in HD as well.

Best program, in my opinion, to watch OTA in HD: Motorweek on PBS-HD (13-1) on Saturdays at 4 pm, and I believe weekdays at 4:30 PM. Strangest show in HD: The guy teaching piano on PBS.

dxernut

04-14-07, 06:31 PM

Stumbled across this board and am enjoying it!!

Just wanted to share that I use a Radio Shack DA-5200 ($ 50) up in my attic to pull in my HD signals. I could not find a "sweet spot" position to get both WYTV and WTOV, so I put in an Channel Master antenna rotor ($100) from Lowe's.

I receive WTAE, WWCP, WTOV, WQED, WQEX (what a waste of a good digital signal), WFMJ, WPMY, KDKA, WJAC, Cornerstone 40, WKBN , WPXI, WNEO, and WPGH (in that order on my tuner.) I have even pulled in WEWS 05-1 from Cleveland, but that was a one-time deal on a very cold morning. I'm also wondering if PBS from Oakland, MD is doable this far north, or if I have a shot at WPSX from State College.

Is there anything else out there that I am missing? I am eagerly awaiting WTRF and UPN 19 to go "live" in the digital domain. I have enjoyed the digital locals so much, that I dumped my locals from Dish Network. I also wonder if anyone else has had trouble with QED's SD programming being blank now and then.
May I ask are you using a set top box or builtin to receive. I have a 91xg antenna with rotor,45ft off the ground and DON'T receive what you get. I did receive last August WPSU 50% signal from 15122, but I know it was due to tropo ducting.You might try WTAJ-DT 10 digital32 from Altoona, but they are low power.My STB pulls in the DX stations better than my builtin. Please let us know what you recieve when(And I Know You Will),you install your antenna outside with your rotor!

pghturbo88

04-15-07, 09:41 AM

May I ask are you using a set top box or builtin to receive. I have a 91xg antenna with rotor,45ft off the ground and DON'T receive what you get. I did receive last August WPSU 50% signal from 15122, but I know it was due to tropo ducting.You might try WTAJ-DT 10 digital32 from Altoona, but they are low power.My STB pulls in the DX stations better than my builtin. Please let us know what you recieve when(And I Know You Will),you install your antenna outside with your rotor!

I am using the built-in tuner on my entry-level Sanyo 30" CRT HD TV. I've almost spent as much on the OTA reception as I did on the set!!! :rolleyes:

As for putting the antenna outside -- yes, I would, if I knew that I could more than I am getting now, but I don't think that there are any more signals to be had. I already get at least two of every network, so what else is there? (If there was someone carrying The Tube TV, I might!) I agree with something I saw in an earlier thread -- this is almost as much fun as having a C-Band dish! (I had one 1988 to 1995).

pghturbo88

04-15-07, 09:57 AM

I have a 91xg antenna with rotor,45ft off the ground and DON'T receive what you get.

I looked it up, and that is a very nice antenna. I am surprised that you are not receiving more with it.

I also went to the www.topozone.com site and entered my address. It shows that I am at approximately 1300 feet of elevation, which is probably what is helping me.

PA_MainyYak

04-15-07, 12:10 PM

May I ask are you using a set top box or builtin to receive. I have a 91xg antenna with rotor,45ft off the ground and DON'T receive what you get. I did receive last August WPSU 50% signal from 15122, but I know it was due to tropo ducting.You might try WTAJ-DT 10 digital32 from Altoona, but they are low power.My STB pulls in the DX stations better than my builtin. Please let us know what you recieve when(And I Know You Will),you install your antenna outside with your rotor!

WTAJ-DT in Altoona (32, maps to 10-1) is broadcasting at full power (1 MW). If you can pull that CBS station, then you may be able to get WATM (24, maps to 23-1 [ABC23-HD], 23-2 [ABC23-SD], 23-3 [WWCP FOX8-SD]). That transmitter (also at 1 MW) is located on the same mountaintop as WTAJ.
According to the chief engineer at WWCP, there are no immediate plans to upgrade the 8-2 ABC feed to HD. I suspect part of the reasoning is WWCP will revert to VHF channel 8 at the analog shutoff (why they made that choice is a real head scratcher.)

Good hunting!

pghturbo88

04-15-07, 04:18 PM

WTAJ-DT in Altoona (32, maps to 10-1) is broadcasting at full power (1 MW). If you can pull that CBS station, then you may be able to get WATM (24, maps to 23-1 [ABC23-HD], 23-2 [ABC23-SD], 23-3 [WWCP FOX8-SD]). That transmitter (also at 1 MW) is located on the same mountaintop as WTAJ.

Hmmm... I can get WWCP/WATM (comes in as 08-01/02 on my receiver) just about no matter which direction I have my rotor turned. Yet I have never been able to pull in WTAJ-DT, even though they are the same power, on top of the same mountain. I'm not a broadcast engineer, but can two UHF signals of the same power, broadcasting from essentially the same location, have two different coverage mappings? Thanks!

pghturbo88

04-15-07, 04:27 PM

WTAJ-DT in Altoona (32, maps to 10-1) is broadcasting at full power (1 MW).

Looks like WTAJ's signal doesn't venture far enough into Western PA for me.

WTAJ Coverage Map (http://www.wtajtv.com/advertising/coveragemap/3735001.html)

Could I possibly be getting the WWCP signal from Ligonier? From WWCP's website:

ABC 23 and FOX 8’s transmitters are located on Laurel Mountain in Ligonier, PA, and on Wopsy Mountain in Altoona, PA
WATM/WWCP Coverage (much more than WTAJ): http://fox8tv.com/dev/map.html

JK77

04-15-07, 07:19 PM

Looks like WTAJ's signal doesn't venture far enough into Western PA for me.

WTAJ Coverage Map (http://www.wtajtv.com/advertising/coveragemap/3735001.html)

Could I possibly be getting the WWCP signal from Ligonier? From WWCP's website:

ABC 23 and FOX 8’s transmitters are located on Laurel Mountain in Ligonier, PA, and on Wopsy Mountain in Altoona, PA
WATM/WWCP Coverage (much more than WTAJ): http://fox8tv.com/dev/map.html

I can get a bit of WTAJ's signal at my place.

You are getting the WWCP signal since it maps to 8-1 and 8-2. If you were getting WATM it would be 23-1 and 23-2.

At least they know how to properly use multicasting unlike a certain station group that shall remain nameless.

pghturbo88

04-15-07, 07:58 PM

You are getting the WWCP signal since it maps to 8-1 and 8-2. If you were getting WATM it would be 23-1 and 23-2

Being a relative newbie at this, the mapping has me confused. First, WWCP is 8-1, and WATM is 8-2 on my tuner. So the 23-1/23-2 for WATM is confusing to me. Do you mean that one signal is the Ligonier signal (8-1/8-2) and the other is the Altoona signal (23-1/23-2)? Also, the mapping changes on me from time to time (as in when I do "Digital Add-On Searches" with my tuner.) Examples:

WYTV was 33-1, now it is 36-1
WTAE was 51-1, now it is 04-1
WPXI was 11-1, now it is 48-1
WKBN was 27-1, now it is 41-1
WTOV was 57-1, now it is 09-1

Any explanations? Thank you in advance for the help. (I also apologize for the thread hijack, but there aren't many people into OTA that I can discuss this stuff with!!)

PA_MainyYak

04-15-07, 09:05 PM

Being a relative newbie at this, the mapping has me confused. First, WWCP is 8-1, and WATM is 8-2 on my tuner. So the 23-1/23-2 for WATM is confusing to me. Do you mean that one signal is the Ligonier signal (8-1/8-2) and the other is the Altoona signal (23-1/23-2)? Also, the mapping changes on me from time to time (as in when I do "Digital Add-On Searches" with my tuner.) Examples:

WYTV was 33-1, now it is 36-1
WTAE was 51-1, now it is 04-1
WPXI was 11-1, now it is 48-1
WKBN was 27-1, now it is 41-1
WTOV was 57-1, now it is 09-1

Any explanations? Thank you in advance for the help. (I also apologize for the thread hijack, but there aren't many people into OTA that I can discuss this stuff with!!)

Yes, it can be a bit confusing. First, let's deal with WWCP and WATM. They are sister stations (WWCP has an agreement to operate WATM). Due to the topography of the Johnstown-Altoona-State College market, they long ago decided to make use of the multicasting capability of the digital signals to "piggyback" both stations' programming on both the WATM transmitter in Altoona (on UHF ch 24) and the WWCP transmitter in Somerset County (near Ligonier) (on UHF ch 29). By doing this they were able to provide both FOX and ABC to most of the market.

Now to channel mapping.
In the analog days is was simple. KDKA was "TV2", WPXI's call letters effectively mean "Pittsburgh's 11 (think Roman numerals). The channel number became a part of a station's branding.
Fast forward to DTV.
Now broadcasters have digital signals capable of multiple channels. And because it is digital, there's the ability to add "metadata" to the programming stream. It's a system called PSIP - the Program and System Information Protocol. It is described as "the glue that holds the digital television (DTV) signal together. PSIP is a standard of the Advanced Television Systems Committee (ATSC), implementation of which is required by the FCC for broadcasters in the U.S."
Among the things it does is to provide us with the on-screen station ID and program information.
Because many broadcasters see value in continuing to promote their traditional channel numbers (especially during this transition time when they are still using the analog channels), they tend to "map" to their original channel. So when you tune in KDKA-DT, it shows up on your screen as 2-1, but is actually being broadcast on channel 25.
Occasionally broadcasters have to turn off that mapping feature temporarily (to install software patches, or repair equipment), and that can cause 11-1 to suddenly display as 48-1 (the actual channel WPXI uses for digital transmission).

Broadcast Engineering magazine offers more on the PSIP protocol, if you're interested. http://broadcastengineering.com/infrastructure/broadcasting_psip_numbers/

JK77

04-15-07, 09:11 PM

dxernut

04-17-07, 10:02 AM

Stumbled across this board and am enjoying it!!

Just wanted to share that I use a Radio Shack DA-5200 ($ 50) up in my attic to pull in my HD signals. I could not find a "sweet spot" position to get both WYTV and WTOV, so I put in an Channel Master antenna rotor ($100) from Lowe's.

I receive WTAE, WWCP, WTOV, WQED, WQEX (what a waste of a good digital signal), WFMJ, WPMY, KDKA, WJAC, Cornerstone 40, WKBN , WPXI, WNEO, and WPGH (in that order on my tuner.) I have even pulled in WEWS 05-1 from Cleveland, but that was a one-time deal on a very cold morning. I'm also wondering if PBS from Oakland, MD is doable this far north, or if I have a shot at WPSX from State College.

Is there anything else out there that I am missing? I am eagerly awaiting WTRF and UPN 19 to go "live" in the digital domain. I have enjoyed the digital locals so much, that I dumped my locals from Dish Network. I also wonder if anyone else has had trouble with QED's SD programming being blank now and then.
I have my 91xg antenna & rotor on my chimney 35 feet off the ground and don't receive what you do. I have received WPSU-DT last August for weeks, but I know it was due to Tropo ducting conditions. You might want to mount your antenna and rotor on the roof and see what you get. Try for WTAJ-DT 32 from Altoona.Good luck and let us know.

Angelo M

04-19-07, 07:09 PM

I've been having a problem with WTAE for a few weeks since they added their weather sub channel.

The problem is with their HD programming on ABC. Now whenever a show is in HD my 3 STB all lose the picture and sound at around 15 second intervals constantly when they are broadcasting HD content. My boxes say "Channel 4 is off the air". It looses the picture and the sound, and then the picture returns for another 10- 15 seconds and the the signal is dropped. Their SD programming does not do this for me.

I did the following.... Tighted up my antennas direction. It is at 90% steady, Rescanned, updated all my channels. All to no cure at all. As I said this is since they add the extra weather channel.

My STB are all Walmart Hisense USDTV Tuners, they all are now doing this with WTAE and my antenna is a CM 4228 and a CM Preamp. All my other channels/ reception is fine.

Any similiar situations or ideas?

I am getting frustrated and hate watching Lost via the internet.....

Thanks

garsh

04-20-07, 08:58 AM

The problem is with their HD programming on ABC. Now whenever a show is in HD my 3 STB all lose the picture and sound at around 15 second intervals constantly when they are broadcasting HD content.Interesting. I am having a different, but similar problem with WTAE. It must be caused by the same issue.

I am unable to get WTAE-HD OTA, but I do get it over cable. I have a MythTV system that records HD programming. For the last few weeks, when I would try to play back Lost or Grey's Anatomy, the audio would quickly become exceptionally out of sync with the video (10-20 seconds!). If I skipped forward to an SD commercial, it would be back in sync, but would quickly become exceptionally out of sync again as soon as the commercial was over.

I took the recorded mpg file, and tried playing it in Windows Media Player instead. WMP played the video fine, but would not play the audio at all.

Finally, I tried the VLC Media Player (http://www.videolan.org/vlc/), and it was able to play the file perfectly.

I'm guessing that the mpeg stream that WTAE is sending out is bad in some way, and you need a pretty good, fault-tolerant decoder to play it correctly.

JK77

04-21-07, 02:35 AM

The addition of WTAE's "Weather and Traffic Watch 4" channel has made WPXI ratchet up its game. I noticed that when Weather Plus goes into the local insert with the radar, tower camera, local conditions/temperatures that traffic flow maps, similar to the ones used during the weekday morning newscasts, are now in the mix.

dxernut

04-21-07, 08:53 PM

dxernut

04-21-07, 09:31 PM

I looked it up, and that is a very nice antenna. I am surprised that you are not receiving more with it.

I also went to the www.topozone.com site and entered my address. It shows that I am at approximately 1300 feet of elevation, which is probably what is helping me.
I love my 91xg antenna.Very lightweight and tilts also.I also own a Channel master 4228 Antenna which I use in the house for my other TV and I receive Channel 19 CW perfect. I will go with this setup till 19 goes digital. The other day the weather was beautiful, so I took my tv , stb, and 4228 antenna with a short run of RG6 cable and walked my entire roof with the 4228, and it works great, but in my situation the 91XG does pull in WFMJ-DT where the 4228 does not! Today due to the tropo ducting WFMJ-DT came in at 8 bars- normally 4 bars with the fifth one flashing. My neighbors don't know what I'm doing up there, and I don't care what they think. Let them pay the $53.00 and month plus for cable while I'll enjoy beautiful digital television ! :)

bscolvin

04-23-07, 09:38 AM

Does anybody have any new info on the cw going hd?

sthayashi

04-23-07, 11:05 PM

Grrr... WPGH cut into a climatic scene during 24 for their news teaser.

hondo21

04-24-07, 01:10 AM

Grrr... WPGH cut into a climatic scene during 24 for their news teaser.Yeah, really. What in the world was that all about? Talk about bad timing.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. I can't wait until we get to the point were I can consistently watch an entire HD program with no picture breakups, sound dropouts/malfunctions, etc. Nearly every HD show I watch has some glitch. This malfunction by WPGH was pretty major due to the timing of it.

tipton

04-24-07, 04:24 AM

PA_MainyYak

04-24-07, 10:36 AM

Does anybody have any new info on the cw going hd?

You've heard the old saying "hurry up and wait."
This is such an example. In early April, I received a reply from Dan Braddock on the delay in the FCC's granting a construction permit.
WPCW is awaiting a ruling from the FCC that will allow us to continue with our construction of WPCW-DT. As soon as the FCC gives us the go ahead, we will have WPCW-DT on the air with HD programming from The CW as quickly as possible.

Thanks for your interest in Pittsburgh's CW.

I've been monitoring the FCC's Daily Digest (http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Digest/2007/) , and saw a pile of pending CPs finally get approval about six weeks ago. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. The good news is that once the red tape is cut, the equipment should be installed and running rather quickly.

Angelo M

04-25-07, 03:00 PM

"I have experienced audio out of sync with picture problems on WTAE-DT-1 since the 4.2 channel added. Since the added channel is new, I'm sure they need some time to work out the kinks in the system. I never lose the pic and sound totally."

Well I sent WTAE an email comment explaining my situation. Not suprisingly, I did not yet get any response.

On Sunday afternoon there was an NBA game on WTAE in HD. I did not have any drop outs at all. Sunday nite I just checked to see if the problem was gone but it was still dropping the picture and sound again about every 15 seconds. I had almost 100% signal strength.

Oh well.....

hondo21

04-25-07, 03:09 PM

JK77

04-26-07, 12:01 AM

i'm pretty pissed about that WPGH news screw up ruining the most climactic moment of tonights 24.

these retarded news promos and weather alerts ruin nearly every HD program on a nightly basis. seriously, with todays technology especially considering the demo watching HD do we really need these severe weather break ins and news promos? does no local affiliate take any pride in their HD broadcast? if you broadcast the show in HD then don't run the news promos or weather alerts at all on the digital feed if you must switch the format to SD to do so. if you want to run them invest in the products to allow them to run on an hd feed without disturbing the broadcast and the viewer.

not to mention every time during commercials the huge pops the sound gets switching from 5.1 to 2.0 sound - particularly on wtae.

Eventually all stations will upgrade their switching gear to handle an HD feed as well as insert a weather/news crawl. It's just another growing pain.

My problem with WPGH's switching is whenever they come from commercials back to the Fox feed, my TV displays the info box in the corner saying "DTV Air...53-1...WPGH-DT...etc. etc." such as when I change channels. I think it is because 53 runs everything as "Undefined" for language and Fox classifies it as "English."

I haven't noticed any problems with 4, 11, 22, or 53 switching from HD to SD, especially on 11 which has very smooth transitions. However, KDKA really needs to get it in gear (no pun intended). Audio pops and freezing or jerking video makes it look like some small market operation.

JK77

04-26-07, 12:01 AM

You've heard the old saying "hurry up and wait."
This is such an example. In early April, I received a reply from Dan Braddock on the delay in the FCC's granting a construction permit.

I'm surprised KDKA never put WPCW on 2-2 to broadcast at least a SD version while things were being ironed out for construction of the 49 transmitter.

dxernut

04-26-07, 01:18 PM

I'm surprised KDKA never put WPCW on 2-2 to broadcast at least a SD version while things were being ironed out for construction of the 49 transmitter.
Quite true! We'll probably see some action next fall with luck! :cool:

JK77

04-26-07, 11:52 PM

Speaking of KDKA, I noticed tonight during CSI and Shark that they have resurrected the "25KDKA-DT" bug that they used to run years ago. I don't mind transparent bugs, and in the land of "500 channels" broadcasters want to tell those surfing through who they are watching, but a colorized version is a little much. If they want to do this continually, they should at least put it under the CBS eye and not to the left of it.

I recall during a Steelers pre-season game last summer WTAE-DT used "51," and WPMY's Tube channel had "42.2" on their IDs, but nowadays most ID with their analog channel number.

danfoley

04-27-07, 12:12 AM

yes i am noticing it during letterman right now. It's very annoying. And I agree, if they MUST put it there, put it directly under the cbs eye and make it transparent.

hondo21

04-27-07, 09:54 AM

I noticed the new KDKA-DT bug during the 11 p.m. news. It stayed onscreen even during commercials, which is unusual I think. I agree it's annoying. If they must have a bug (I still don't see why they do) they could at least make it transparent like the CBS eye.

Where do we e-mail to complain?

pghturbo88

04-29-07, 09:32 AM

Speaking of KDKA-DT, am I hallucinating, or does their evening newscast appear to have a slightly elongated aspect ratio? The picture that I saw the other night appears to be wider than WTAE or WPXI, with all settings on my set being the same for all channels. Anyone else notice this?

bscolvin

04-30-07, 01:49 PM

it is not just you kdka-dt is wider than the other local channels i wonder why?

pktrvl

05-03-07, 04:06 PM

Was it just me or did anyone else have audio sync problems last night on Letterman? It was so far out of sync I could not watch it.

pghturbo88

05-03-07, 08:11 PM

I have been noticing audio/video sync issues for the past few days on KDKA as well. Audio on "The Unit" was so bad, I watched it on WKBN from Youngstown.

JK77

05-03-07, 08:17 PM

Was it just me or did anyone else have audio sync problems last night on Letterman? It was so far out of sync I could not watch it.

I've noticed it off and on for several months. Also I've seen the top of the picture "bend" to the left at times. Between this and the sloppy switches from commercials to network programming and vice-versa, it makes me wonder what is going on at that station.

danfoley

05-03-07, 11:04 PM

yes.. audio sync problems are HORRIBLE.. on letterman the other night it was like you said.. unwatchable.

So here's the thing.. it's been like there for over a year now. Better and worse at times. How can they get away with this? They must know it's a problem. Does the engineering dept just not care?

Who can we contact? how can we get this fixed. It's just so annoying to me. I'm a programmer, when the software i write has problems, people let me know and i have to fix it. If i don't they'd fire me. But it seems over at KDKA they can just have the audio out of sync not even try to fix it, and no one gives a *hit.

So, who's in charge over there? Why can't they fix it? What the heck can we do about it? It's unwatchable at times. With more and more people going HD, don't they even care?

PS here is the number for the engineer dept:
Engineering: 412/575-2439

Lets just start calling them asking them what's going on.. maybe someone here can get some real answers and get something done.

sthayashi

05-03-07, 11:24 PM

I'm glad other people are noticing this. I wasn't sure if the syncing issue was on my end or not. For some reason, when I change channels and change back again, it seems to make it somewhat better. But the improvement could just be all in my head.

I actually just recorded CSI tonight, we'll see how it looks later.

danfoley

05-03-07, 11:46 PM

call them tommorrow, get in touch with someone in charge. I posted the # above.

danfoley

05-03-07, 11:51 PM

By the way the audio/video sync on KDKA is never good. I think we've all just gotten used to it being slighly out, that we don't tend to notice it. Then some days it gets horrible and we notice it again. But come on is it TOO much to ask the audio / video be in sync.

I feel like we are all talking about it as if this were some minor problem. It's the most major problem you could have, other then having no signal at all.

Can we go above KDKA's head? If so who would we contact? Would the CBS network be mad if they knew all their HD shows are out of sync? Or do they not care as well?

hondo21

05-04-07, 11:43 AM

KDKA is owned and operated by CBS. You'd think their own stations would have the best quality control, but sadly this audio sync problem has persisted. And it's been much longer than a year, by the way.

danfoley

05-04-07, 06:43 PM

So again, what can we do about it?

benji15301

05-05-07, 02:22 PM

Saturday afternoon: NHL Hockey, in High-Def on Steubenville and Johnstown NBC. Standard def on Pittsburgh NBC (WPXI). Any reason?

tipton

05-05-07, 04:17 PM

Saturday afternoon: NHL Hockey, in High-Def on Steubenville and Johnstown NBC. Standard def on Pittsburgh NBC (WPXI). Any reason?

um, because they are consistently the only OTA provider in the pittsburgh area that this problem always occurs with? look though this thread it happens regularly and continues to happen. how does it not happen on WPGH, KDKA, or WTAE ? :rolleyes:

benji15301

05-05-07, 04:22 PM

TV21CHIEF

05-07-07, 10:42 AM

Maybe I should ask Mr. Morrison if they need any weekend help because it is becomming painfully obvious that their weekend people are constantly sleeping at the switch.

You would think they could get good help.

In defense of Dave Morrison, it is a real PITA to get these HD feeds. The receiver NBC supplies us (note that it's RECEIVER not RECEIVER(s)) is a nightmare to operate. NBC provides the hockey HD feeds on different transponders than the usual prime time shows. I have the same problems here. In my case when my weekend people retune the receiver for hockey it usually requires a power cycle to get the audio right. On my receiver if you don't power cycle, the center channel audio disappears. It's not just a case of "throwing the switch". It's been a real nightmare for us when NBC runs a hocky game back-to back with golf or another sporting event. Either the end of the other event suffers by being in SD during the retune/reboot or the beginning od the hockey game suffers. Unlike all the SD receivers in our racks, NBC can not control the HD receiver through the backhaul system. I was out of the office last week and don't know for sure what the NBC schdule was, but I think I can speak for Dave when I say we're all trying to do our best to make HD work consistently with what we're provided.