guys -

i'm moving to a new apartment in a building in west friendship/east bloomfield. i have a big outdoor balcony on the 2nd floor of a 3-story building, so i was thinking of taking this opportunity to ditch my cable bill and ride the airwaves with an outdoor antenna. i was looking at something like the channelmaster 4220, or something like it. obviously i'm a little concerned about being able to pick up 4.1/wtae, but other than that, i'm fairly well positioned to pick up pgh stations with an outdoor wall facing the northwest. i'm intrigued by the possibility of picking up some stations from ohio or other areas in the region. does anyone have an antenna recommendation? i'm in the city, so i might have to go with something directional to get reliable reception, but i'd like to be able to bring in those far-off signals, if for no other reason than to get wtae reliably. anyone in or around this area having real success with a particular antenna?

thanks.

dan

I don't exactly understand the outdoor balcony situation you have,but I would like to tell you of my experiences with my antennas. I own a 4220-very nice antenna,but I don't think you'll get long distance stations with it. I primarly purchased it for secondary television with no concern for DX stations. I also own a 4228 Antenna. Great antenna a little big and heavy .I use it in my attic with a pre-amp, no room for a rotor receives ALL local with no problems. I have mounted this 4228 on my roof with a rotor,but could not receive my goal WFMJ. Otherwise it worked great. In order to receive WFMJ with a dependable signal I purchased a 91XG(Very directional) antenna. Now in your situation will the landlord allow such an antenna? If it's now going on the roof I don't know what luck you will have in receiving long distance stations.Also if the landlord agrees, be sure you have it grounded if it is going to stay outside.www.Antennapoint.com will give you a decent idea of what you can receive. Good luck and let us know what you decide.

no, it's not going to be on the roof, it'll be mounted on the n/w-facing outdoor wall on our balcony, so basically anything coming from the east is probably going to be a no-go unless it can pass straight through the building. is having it close to the wall going to severely limit what i'm able to pick up? i'm not dying to get anything out of johnstown or anything, i just want to be sure i can get all of the major locals reliably. considering they're all pretty much to the north/northwest and south, i think i should be ok without a giant one. the 4228 looks a little beastly, i think i may have to go with the regular 4220.

no, it's not going to be on the roof, it'll be mounted on the n/w-facing outdoor wall on our balcony, so basically anything coming from the east is probably going to be a no-go unless it can pass straight through the building. is having it close to the wall going to severely limit what i'm able to pick up? i'm not dying to get anything out of johnstown or anything, i just want to be sure i can get all of the major locals reliably. considering they're all pretty much to the north/northwest and south, i think i should be ok without a giant one. the 4228 looks a little beastly, i think i may have to go with the regular 4220.Do you mean having it facing an outside wall?I have several of my antennas inside and they pass thru the wall,even WWCP fox8! These are fantastic antennas.
I would go with the 4228, that way you would get a reliable signal. It's only about 20.00 more. The 4220 will get you 2,8,11,13,16,22,40,53,and analog 19 good.Be sure to use RG6 cable. Warren Electronics will get you the best deal! Have fun!:cool:

Is KDKA now broadcasting 4:3 programming pillar boxed with grey instead of black bars?

That's what I'm seeing here. This is unfortunate as my tuners are fooled by the grey bars when trying to auto detect program aspect ratio. With a 16:10 screen, it is important to know the program's aspect ratio in order to automatically fill as much screen as possible without cropping or stretching.

Is KDKA now broadcasting 4:3 programming pillar boxed with grey instead of black bars?

That's what I'm seeing here. This is unfortunate as my tuners are fooled by the grey bars when trying to auto detect program aspect ratio. With a 16:10 screen, it is important to know the program's aspect ratio in order to automatically fill as much screen as possible without cropping or stretching.


Someone mentioned that earlier on this forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13851925#post13851925

Is KDKA now broadcasting 4:3 programming pillar boxed with grey instead of black bars?

Sure is, and I do NOT like it. :mad:

Either put REAL content into that space, or leave it BLACK. The gray shade makes the rest of the picture look washed out.

I'm wondering if it is intentional, that KDKA has a justification of some sort.

Or is it possible that they're that clueless about the quality of their own broadcast? (honest question)

It's easier on plasma displays, but seeing as LCDs are killing in the flat panel market, I don't know why they'd make a move now.

Dave might be in a better position to discuss this hypothetically, but it seems to me one possibility for KD's gray bars might be related to switching and swapping equipment to make ready for local HD.

I must give WTAE some rare kudos for the handling of the Tornado warnig for Venango county last night during the NBA game. They had unobtrusive scrolling at the bottom of the screen, and then when they decided to break-in for a weather update it was done during a commercial break instead of during the game. Nothing was missed, except for a few commercials. I doubt that the advertisers are to happy about that.

I'm here in the 'burgh visiting my parents. I brought my digital STB to see what OTA channels they get.

What's up with the volume level on 22.2?

I wanted to ask the WPXI guy about the delay on digital 11, it is about 3 seconds longer than analog. The analog is even delayed about 1 sec. compared to comcast cable. As a comparison I only noticed about a 1 sec. delay on KDKA digital.

I noticed tonight while watching the NBA Finals that the audio kept skipping. At first I thought it was the signal strength, but my set was registering 8/10 bars. Then I thought it was the network feed, but another digital ABC station I get via satellite had no problems.

Frankly, I'd rather watch it in 4:3 than...to...hear...the...sound...like...this. :D

I also noticed numerous digital audio dropouts on WTAE-DT this weekend, although via Comcast.

Just an FYI, WPCW filed their paperwork yesterday to maximize the channel 11 signal, 968' 30 kW.

- Trip

Dave might be in a better position to discuss this hypothetically, but it seems to me one possibility for KD's gray bars might be related to switching and swapping equipment to make ready for local HD.

No.

Dave might be in a better position to discuss this hypothetically, but it seems to me one possibility for KD's gray bars might be related to switching and swapping equipment to make ready for local HD.

No.

"No" about Dave, "No" about reason for gray bars, or both?

:confused:

No to the reason for the gray bars.

Isn't it nice how QED has hijacked their HD channel to put SD fund raising fare on?

Isn't it nice how QED has hijacked their HD channel to put SD fund raising fare on?Yes, I was thinking myself what a sleazy move that was. "We bring you all this great programming. Except when we're busy pre-empting it to beg you for more money."

In fairness, it was only a matter of time. I'm surprised more PBS affiliates don't do it. Then again, it requires a certain amount of new equipment, and therefore can be financially prohibitive.

It's an inevitability. Hopefully PBS starts building beg time into the HD channel.

Isn't it nice how QED has hijacked their HD channel to put SD fund raising fare on?

I guess this is one reason I am fortunate not to get WQED full time :D.

I just checked two CBS HD stations I get via satellite, one being a CBS O&O, and neither have gray pillars during 4:3 content. I guess someone in the engineering department at KDKA is just shade blind :D.

My local ABC station uses gray bars, and until sometime in the last year (I've been away at college) so did my local CBS station. The argument for gray bars is that it reduces burn-in on screens that burn in.

Last time I was in New York, WCBS-DT in New York also had gray bars. I have screencaps from 2004 showing KYW-DT and WJZ-DT (also CBS O&O stations) using gray bars. I'd been under the impression that gray bars were a policy for CBS O&O stations.

- Trip

wtae ruining the eurocup 2008 final with the scrolling "severe storm WATCH" all game long?
kdka and wpxi have nothing on their screens. what a joke.

Agreed. We get the point WTAE. You can stop scrolling that stupid message across the screen.

Agreed. We get the point WTAE. You can stop scrolling that stupid message across the screen.

I agree as well, and just want to point out that the stations out of Youngstown and Steubenville always roll continuous storm crawls, along with "mini radar maps" in the lower corner of the screen showing heavy areas of the storm. I guess this is for people who get their only info OTA, and don't have the luxury of cable or internet.

any one got a phone number so we can get this crap off the screen?

Although I was not watching OTA, I must say the weather scroll completly ruined watching the game for me. This is ridicolous and I hope someone is fired for this. If I wanted a scroller on the bottom of my screen the entire game I would have begged the game be show on ESPN 1 or 2.

Same here. I felt that the scrolling banner overshadowed all other movement on the screen. The movement of the ball was unnoticeable in comparison. The game was pretty much secondary to the attention grabbing nature of constantly moving text. Eventually I switched to WWCP and watched the game in standard-def just to get rid of the scrolling banner.

Then again... KDKA has been broadcasting grey (instead of black) bars around 4:3 content for quite a while now. I sure wish it was easier to provide feedback when stations appear to be unwittingly ruining their own product.

[edit]
Not so difficult I suppose... ;)
WTAE: http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/station/index.html
KDKA: http://kdka.com/contact
Edit #2: I feel sheepish now after having accidentally submitted feedback to the wrong station. lol, i had to send them more feedback apologizing for the misdirected lambasting. ;-)

I agree with all that the weather crawls are annoying and take away from the program. However, I can almost assure you that the station spokespeople are going to say that public safety trumps entertainment, especially since this afternoon's storms came with a tornado warning. As I've said before, it should be illegal for local stations to put banners up touting programming during sweeps (as WTAE did in May for the 11PM news during LOST) but I think that you'll get a good argument from them about the storms. Just trying to be objective here.

Second, maybe it's just me, but the grey bars on KDKA's SD broadcasts are a non-issue to me, and I am surprised at all of the discussion that goes on about them. Whether the bars are grey or black makes no difference to me -- I don't notice either color. Again, just one person's opinion on both issues. This is a forum, after all...

A perfectly reasonable rebuttal pghturbo88. While I disagree, it is nice to see opposing views both find a voice here.

A constant banner through the entire super bowl would certainly draw comments. That's basically what happened today.

I agree with all that the weather crawls are annoying and take away from the program. However, I can almost assure you that the station spokespeople are going to say that public safety trumps entertainment, especially since this afternoon's storms came with a tornado warning. As I've said before, it should be illegal for local stations to put banners up touting programming during sweeps (as WTAE did in May for the 11PM news during LOST) but I think that you'll get a good argument from them about the storms. Just trying to be objective here.

Second, maybe it's just me, but the grey bars on KDKA's SD broadcasts are a non-issue to me, and I am surprised at all of the discussion that goes on about them. Whether the bars are grey or black makes no difference to me -- I don't notice either color. Again, just one person's opinion on both issues. This is a forum, after all...

during 75% of the game that they scrolled across, it was an advertisement of a T-storm WATCH only, not about any warnings active in the area. i'd say that there was no imminent danger and hence no public safety to worry about. the tornado warnings were after the game was over, around 545PM IIRC-- i wouldn't have any opposition to a banner for that, let alone a programming cutaway-- THAT is imminent danger.

if we were really in that much imminent danger to justify a t-storm WATCH banner, how come kdka and wpxi only flashed them 2-3 times an hour instead of a persistent scrolling banner? are they not concerned about public safety? are they liable?

Excellent news...

I just received word back from KDKA. They are in the process of resolving the issue of 4:3 content being matted with gray instead of black.

It goes to show you how much I watch KDKA (or CBS), I have yet to see these gray bars.

I heard that the digital version of WPCW (which I guess got lit up on Fios last week) is also using the gray bars for 4:3 content. I wonder if they will get resolved at the same time as KDKA.

Does anyone know...did WKBN (analog 27, digital 41) boost their power some time this weekend? All of a sudden I get a nice solid digital signal from them in Penn Hills! That would be great but I'm afraid that it was just good atmospheric conditions and I'll lose them again.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

I agree with all that the weather crawls are annoying and take away from the program. However, I can almost assure you that the station spokespeople are going to say that public safety trumps entertainment, especially since this afternoon's storms came with a tornado warning.

When I worked at KDKA, there was a day where severe weather rolled through in the afternoon. They interrupted network programming, as they did yesterday, which caused numerous complaints because people couldn't see their "stories." However, CBS sent a whole spread of fruits, cheeses, meats, and baked goods along with a letter commending the news department and news director for taking the initiative to get the word out.

Second, maybe it's just me, but the grey bars on KDKA's SD broadcasts are a non-issue to me, and I am surprised at all of the discussion that goes on about them.

I agree. At least it isn't like ESPN HD which puts a logo in the pillars.

Again, I want my fellow posters to know that I absolutely do not like weather and program banners rolling on or under my programming, especially if it is HD. For discussion's sake, I was just trying to present an objective point of view as to how I would see the station responding. Is it possible that someone turned on the "crawl" and forgot about it? Usually, they let those things run two "laps" then they turn them off.

Does anyone know...did WKBN (analog 27, digital 41) boost their power some time this weekend? All of a sudden I get a nice solid digital signal from them in Penn Hills! That would be great but I'm afraid that it was just good atmospheric conditions and I'll lose them again.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

Sounds like you got some good tropo reception, Dave! When the weather is right, I can get Altoona, Cleveland, or even Columbus!

Woah, that was quick. KDKA has already fixed their signal!
(Or at least this evening's 6pm news cast is 4:3 surrounded by black rather than gray)

Nice! No longer do some of us have to manually change aspect ratio settings when watching KDKA. Our tuners are once again able to automatically detect 4:3 programming.

Does anyone know...did WKBN (analog 27, digital 41) boost their power some time this weekend? All of a sudden I get a nice solid digital signal from them in Penn Hills! That would be great but I'm afraid that it was just good atmospheric conditions and I'll lose them again.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

I also experienced Tropo reception since last Thursdays storms. I pulled in WTAJ Altoona with about a 70% signal and WPSU State College 75% signal about 90 miles or so away!You got to love this digital Tv . Analog as far as I'm concerned can't leave soon enough.

In case someone didn't know where to find a tropo forecast....

http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo.html

Good hunting!

Does anyone know...did WKBN (analog 27, digital 41) boost their power some time this weekend? All of a sudden I get a nice solid digital signal from them in Penn Hills! That would be great but I'm afraid that it was just good atmospheric conditions and I'll lose them again.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

Dave,

WKBN-DT should be available 24/7 in many areas of Penn Hills with the right antenna setup. Here's a Google Earth/TVFool map of the area that shows WKBN-DT's signal strengths. Green is fairly strong, blue is easily receivable, and the magenta areas require a bit more work.

http://www.salemtubes.com/images/wkbn%20penn%20hills.jpg

Yes, according to the Google Maps overlay, I ought to receive WKBN pretty easily, but based on my experience I have difficulty with it. I found that my receiver can "see" them from time-to-time, but there's not enough out there to lock on to. Of course, I don't have the best omnidirectional antenna out there and it's located in my attic.

Dave

In case someone didn't know where to find a tropo forecast....

http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo.html

Good hunting!

Thanks for the link! I didn't know that was out there. As an amateur radio operator, I'm very familiar with tropospheric ducting...it's very cool...its kinda like a surfer finding a good wave!

Good DX!

Dave

What kind/brand of antennas are you guys using to get your OTA signals and how is the reception? Is anyone able to consistently pick up the NBC (6) out of Johnstown?

I live in Brentwood and right now I'm just using a pair of amplified Phillips rabbit ears, which gets me all the locals plus ABC & FOX from Johnstown (or is it Altoona?)…intermittently…but I am looking for an outdoor antenna (or superb indoor one) that will let me get the current channels I receive plus some.

Last night for some reason, I was able to pick up NBC Johnstown, and the signal appeared stable, but when I got up this morning, it was gone. I wouldn’t mind finding an antenna that is sensitive enough that I won’t lose/gain signal just because it’s cloudy/sunny. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

At that kind of distance, you'll need a directional antenna mounted outdoors and high up, in order to receive more stations from Johnstown. However, with that antenna pointed a Johnstown, you'd have difficulty getting the pittsburgh stations. One solution would be to have two antennas and point one at each market.

As for why you can occasionally pick up NBC from johnstown, the weather, time of day, and level of solar activity will all affect reception on any particular day.

Antenna brands? A good place to start is to look at options from ChannelMaster. I'd recommend something big and directional (like a CM4228) if you really want to get those Johnstown stations. Although even with a great setup, you may or may not get more than you have now. It really depends on the structures and topology around your house.

Anyone from around Indiana, PA with OTA receiving experience.

I saved my chart from tvfool and included it http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=114495&stc=1&d=1215094712

I have been looking at the Winegard MS 2000

And it is rated 40 - 60 miles, and the stations I want to receive are all within that range.

Any help would be appreciated.

Anyone from around Indiana, PA with OTA receiving experience.

#1 question: how high are you willing to mount your antenna?

If you have good line of sight, something like a CM 4221 will work around Indiana. If you don't, you may want to consider something bigger.

I have a friend in Homer City using a 4221 at ground level, no pre-amp and he gets solid reception on WJAC (6) and WWCP (8) along with intermittent reception on WPXI (11) and KDKA (2). His antenna is in a horrible spot.

So, with a decent height, you'd get good results.

If you're willing to spend, there is no argument in Indiana area against using a CM 4228 or an XG91 with a pre-amp. You're far enough away that you're not talking about overload issues with any of the channels.

Indiana is actually a pretty sweet spot for reception if you're willing to put up a decent rig. Don't bet on receiving WPSU and beyond that you should be in pretty good shape.

What kind/brand of antennas are you guys using to get your OTA signals and how is the reception? Is anyone able to consistently pick up the NBC (6) out of Johnstown?

Points due west of WJAC have trouble because the radiating pattern for WJAC point north, east and south. Anyone due west gets awful reception. Even with a great outdoor antenna rig WJAC is a challenge for folks due west of the transmitter.

Points due west of WJAC have trouble because the radiating pattern for WJAC point north, east and south. Anyone due west gets awful reception. Even with a great outdoor antenna rig WJAC is a challenge for folks due west of the transmitter.

yeah...it's not absolutely necessary for me to get it. It's just nice to pick up the stations from other areas as there are shows I like to watch which arent on my local NBC and FOX stations at the time they're being shown elsewhere.

So I gather that I have mainly two options for long range outdoor antennas to pick up the locals plus maybe some from other areas...either the ChannelMaster 4228 or the DB8 from Antennas Direct. Regardless of which one I would get...are there contractors in the Pittsburgh Area that do antenna installations anymore or do I have to do this myself. (Its not that I'm lazy...I'm just not looking to drill holes in my roof/house which could then cause leaks, or fall off a ladder. Plus I figure a professional will be able to aim it better than I could...and if they do anything wrong, they would be insured for it.)

Google searches for "Antenna Installers" yielded few useful results...anyone out there know/have experience with anyone in the area installing a rooftop antenna?

yeah...it's not absolutely necessary for me to get it. It's just nice to pick up the stations from other areas as there are shows I like to watch which arent on my local NBC and FOX stations at the time they're being shown elsewhere.

My big experience with being on the wrong part of a radiating pattern is with WATM's digital. Ugh. I will offer fair warning: if you are in a transmitter null, even the biggest, baddest, meanest antenna may not be enough. 23 is a living hell where I'm at (Punxsy).

Folks west of WJAC experience a similar effect, although I've never had the chance to tinker with an antenna in those areas.

So I gather that I have mainly two options for long range outdoor antennas to pick up the locals plus maybe some from other areas...either the ChannelMaster 4228 or the DB8 from Antennas Direct.

Don't forget the XG91. Very directional, which might help you narrow in on your WJAC signal a bit better.

I have the CM 4228 and have largely been impressed. It's not very directional unless the signal in question sucks. For example, at 60 mi away, KDKA comes in anywhere from 180 degrees to 275 degrees. Nearby stronger signals like WJAC (I'm due north and get almost 100% power from their radiating pattern), WWCP and WPSU come in even on the backside of the antenna. WJAC and WPSU come in virtually everywhere on 360 degrees.

As for installers... the profession itself is all but dead. Most rooftop installs are now done by crazy people that can't stop trying to get a better signal.

Nwiser,

You can probably easily receive WTOV (9, NBC) from Steubenville assuming there are no obstructions to your West. You're about 35 miles away from its transmitter. Keep in mind, though, that you'll need a high band VHF antenna like the Winegard YA-1713 to receive WTRF (7, CBS) from Wheeling and 9 in February. WQED will also be moving its digital broadcast to channel 13 in February.

You also have a shot at two of the Youngstown stations, WKBN (27, CBS) and WFMJ (21, NBC) if you put up and antenna like the Channel Master 4228 or the Antennas Direct 91XG along with using a preamp like the Winegard HDP-269. You can watch most of the Browns games on WKBN!:D Youngstown's Fox affiliate (WYFX) is a sub channel on WKBN's digital transmission. Youngstown's WYTV (33, ABC) is probably out of the question because of its low power and short tower, relatively speaking.

And don't forget WWCP Fox 8 in Johnstown will be moving off RF channel 29 and back to 8 next February, another reason you'll need an antenna with VHF Hi capability.

And there is the semi-mythical belief that some day after the transition that WPCW will be transmitting on 11.

And there is the semi-mythical belief that some day after the transition that WPCW will be transmitting on 11.

Uhhhhhhhh I thought they were assigned 11.

Thanks for the advice guys.

And don't forget WWCP Fox 8 in Johnstown will be moving off RF channel 29 and back to 8 next February, another reason you'll need an antenna with VHF Hi capability.

are you serious? man that bites...I watch King of the Hill every evening on it. :(

Uhhhhhhhh I thought they were assigned 11.

They are assigned. But, holy cripes is it taking forever. My understanding is they don't have a solid date for starting even after channel 11 turns off their analog.

What kind/brand of antennas are you guys using to get your OTA signals and how is the reception? Is anyone able to consistently pick up the NBC (6) out of Johnstown?

I live in Brentwood and right now I'm just using a pair of amplified Phillips rabbit ears, which gets me all the locals plus ABC & FOX from Johnstown (or is it Altoona?)…intermittently…but I am looking for an outdoor antenna (or superb indoor one) that will let me get the current channels I receive plus some.

Last night for some reason, I was able to pick up NBC Johnstown, and the signal appeared stable, but when I got up this morning, it was gone. I wouldn’t mind finding an antenna that is sensitive enough that I won’t lose/gain signal just because it’s cloudy/sunny. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I'm going to throw in a plug for my amplified Radio Shack DA-5200 UHF antenna that I have in my attic on a Channel Master rotor. It does a great job pulling things in. Its small size allows you to put it just about anywhere. Try one, and if it doesn't work, just take it back.

The other posters bring up interesting points regarding VHF digital signals that will be available next year. I do have a large rural VHF/UHF antenna, also in my attic, pointed towards Steubenville/Wheeling, but I am trying to figure out how to get another coax run down to my TV in order to get all of the VHF goodies. :-(

Nwiser,

Youngstown's WYTV (33, ABC) is probably out of the question because of its low power and short tower, relatively speaking.


I agree. 33 is a tough nut to crack. I can only get it consistently in the fall and winter when the leaves are off of the trees, if you can believe that.

Is WTAE digital operating at full power? I have no problems whatsoever receiving the analog signal but with digital, one convertor receives it very weak, the other not at all. I am located aprox 10 miles south of Butler not near any hills or obstructions. Can pickup all the other Pittsburgh stations, some Johnstown/Altoona and Youngstown stations. Thought that maybe there was a digital power issue since I have no problems with the analog signal or any of the other digital Pgh stations. Thanks!

They are assigned. But, holy cripes is it taking forever. My understanding is they don't have a solid date for starting even after channel 11 turns off their analog.

According to their transition report with the FCC (and backed up in their construction permit application, and their application to increase power) the necessary equipment is being ordered or is already on hand so they can move ahead as soon as channel 11 is vacated next February. I'm guessing next March or April.

Is WTAE digital operating at full power? I have no problems whatsoever receiving the analog signal but with digital, one convertor receives it very weak, the other not at all. I am located aprox 10 miles south of Butler not near any hills or obstructions. Can pickup all the other Pittsburgh stations, some Johnstown/Altoona and Youngstown stations. Thought that maybe there was a digital power issue since I have no problems with the analog signal or any of the other digital Pgh stations. Thanks!

WTAE's transmitter is south of the city, so you may need to point your antenna a bit more to the southeast than you do for getting the other Pittsburgh stations.

FYI that WTOV-9 is now utilizing the now-famous grey bars when they broadcast a program in SD.

WTAE's transmitter is south of the city, so you may need to point your antenna a bit more to the southeast than you do for getting the other Pittsburgh stations.

I've turned the antenna to no avail. One convertor gets no signal, the other is very weak. Analog is no problem, comes in better than a lot of the other stations I receive.

Are the digital and analog antennas located at the same location?

According to their transition report with the FCC (and backed up in their construction permit application, and their application to increase power) the necessary equipment is being ordered or is already on hand so they can move ahead as soon as channel 11 is vacated next February. I'm guessing next March or April.

The thing that I thought was weird with this whole situation with WPCW is this: I get the issue with the LP station. Not a surprise, and it is a little dumb that the original request went out for it. But, the FCC offered an open UHF channel for WPCW; I think it was 30.

It's puzzling that they couldn't have taken the other UHF channel and gotten their transmitter up by now.

It doesn't seem to be the case that they wanted VHF 11 all along. Obviously, or they would not have requested a high UHF channel to begin with.

So, why all the bother? The transition is going to be a pain enough as it is without adding further issues.

Is WTAE digital operating at full power?

Yes. The issue is a combination of the transmitter location and the channel it is on. UHF 51 the highest channel that will be allowed post-transition. Hi UHF channels don't propagate well in areas with irregular terrain such as western PA.

So, WTAE will likely remain one of the toughest channels to receive in our area, unless they seek a different channel or the FCC finds religion on allowing transmitters to run with more juice.

The thing that I thought was weird with this whole situation with WPCW is this: I get the issue with the LP station. Not a surprise, and it is a little dumb that the original request went out for it. But, the FCC offered an open UHF channel for WPCW; I think it was 30.

It's puzzling that they couldn't have taken the other UHF channel and gotten their transmitter up by now.

It doesn't seem to be the case that they wanted VHF 11 all along. Obviously, or they would not have requested a high UHF channel to begin with.

So, why all the bother? The transition is going to be a pain enough as it is without adding further issues.

Channel 30 would have had to be co-located with WWCP-DT on 29. If you can't see WWCP now, you wouldn't have been able to see WPCW-DT on 30.

While stations can be side-by-side if they're co-located, if they're too far apart you get interference. WPCW wanted to move to channel 49 in order to move the station into Pittsburgh, which they couldn't do on channel 30.

The channel 49 allocation was objected to over and over, and the FCC ended it once and for all by offering channel 11. I don't think CBS much wanted 11 (they even had a channel 49 antenna in storage already) but they have it now. I doubt very much that CBS was actively avoiding putting on a digital for WPCW.

- Trip

I have satellite radio and for those with it, you know they have their signal coming from the satellite as well as antennas on the ground...known as "terrestrial" repeaters.

Has there ever been consideration of local/OTA stations doing something similar? Surely they know their signal doesnt reach certain local areas or is really weak. Instead of blasting their signal as high as it will go from only one location, which could create a wash out effect for those closer to the tower, why not lower the power and broadcast the same signal level from other areas.

The obvious answer is "cost"...and may be the only answer. :(

Yes. The issue is a combination of the transmitter location and the channel it is on. UHF 51 the highest channel that will be allowed post-transition. Hi UHF channels don't propagate well in areas with irregular terrain such as western PA.

So, WTAE will likely remain one of the toughest channels to receive in our area, unless they seek a different channel or the FCC finds religion on allowing transmitters to run with more juice.

The tower location was chosen because Channel 4 is short spaced between Pittsburgh, Buffalo, NY and Columbus, OH. WTAE-DT also uses a directional antenna because of WSFJ-TV, Newark, OH. Both of those problems go away next February. A third problem is their digital antenna is 20 meters (about 66 feet) lower than their analog Channel 4 antenna. One UHF digital station in Columbus has asked for 1700 kw (not likely to be granted) but even without more power the WTAE-DT signal that clearly does not replicate their analog coverage could be improved post-transition.

Has there ever been consideration of local/OTA stations doing something similar?

Yes. They're called "DTS" (Distributed Transmission Systems) and are being used in several locations on an experimental basis:

WVPT-DT and WVPY-DT in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia have on-channel repeaters of their main signals located at each of the transmitter sites of their translators.

WPSU-DT in Clearfield PA has an on-channel repeater in State College and plans for two more in Johnstown and Altoona.

WTVE-DT in Reading PA is operating 8 low-powered transmitters rather than one massive transmitter, and the coverage on it seems pretty good. I drove through the area today and was impressed with them. I posted the information about their DTS on their Wikipedia page a while back.

There are more, but those are the ones that come to mind. I imagine we'll see more DTS showing up once the FCC finalizes some rules about the things.

- Trip

Yes. They're called "DTS" (Distributed Transmission Systems) and are being used in several locations on an experimental basis:

WVPT-DT and WVPY-DT in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia have on-channel repeaters of their main signals located at each of the transmitter sites of their translators.

WPSU-DT in Clearfield PA has an on-channel repeater in State College and plans for two more in Johnstown and Altoona.

WTVE-DT in Reading PA is operating 8 low-powered transmitters rather than one massive transmitter, and the coverage on it seems pretty good. I drove through the area today and was impressed with them. I posted the information about their DTS on their Wikipedia page a while back.

There are more, but those are the ones that come to mind. I imagine we'll see more DTS showing up once the FCC finalizes some rules about the things.

- Trip

All of the proposed ATSC Mobile/Handheld standards include a provision for SFNs (single frequency networks) that will improve the operation of booster transmitters.

Yes. They're called "DTS" (Distributed Transmission Systems) and are being used in several locations on an experimental basis:

WVPT-DT and WVPY-DT in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia have on-channel repeaters of their main signals located at each of the transmitter sites of their translators.

WPSU-DT in Clearfield PA has an on-channel repeater in State College and plans for two more in Johnstown and Altoona.

WTVE-DT in Reading PA is operating 8 low-powered transmitters rather than one massive transmitter, and the coverage on it seems pretty good. I drove through the area today and was impressed with them. I posted the information about their DTS on their Wikipedia page a while back.

There are more, but those are the ones that come to mind. I imagine we'll see more DTS showing up once the FCC finalizes some rules about the things.

- Trip


There's been considerable interest in doing something similar in NYC. The urban canyons are nearly as tough on propagation as our mountainous terrain.

As to the speculation regarding the FCC's willingness to consider higher transmitter power, it would make sense to wait until after the analog stations go dark to see how existing post-transition signals work, and I suspect that's the plan of action the Engineering Bureau will take.

#1 question: how high are you willing to mount your antenna?

If you have good line of sight, something like a CM 4221 will work around Indiana. If you don't, you may want to consider something bigger.

I have a friend in Homer City using a 4221 at ground level, no pre-amp and he gets solid reception on WJAC (6) and WWCP (8) along with intermittent reception on WPXI (11) and KDKA (2). His antenna is in a horrible spot.

So, with a decent height, you'd get good results.

If you're willing to spend, there is no argument in Indiana area against using a CM 4228 or an XG91 with a pre-amp. You're far enough away that you're not talking about overload issues with any of the channels.

Indiana is actually a pretty sweet spot for reception if you're willing to put up a decent rig. Don't bet on receiving WPSU and beyond that you should be in pretty good shape.



Points due west of WJAC have trouble because the radiating pattern for WJAC point north, east and south. Anyone due west gets awful reception. Even with a great outdoor antenna rig WJAC is a challenge for folks due west of the transmitter.

Thanks for the suggestion. I will check out those antenna and let you know my results.

More encouraging news from the FCC (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101252070&formid=340&fac_num=41315): They have approved WQED's request for a doubling of transmitter power when the station moves digital operations to channel 13. WQED will have 25Kw. Doesn't sound like much, but it should provide a significant improvement to reception, especially in those areas where the current WQED-DT on channel 38 has been tough to lock in.

Thanks for the suggestion. I will check out those antenna and let you know my results.

Fair warning on those suggestions: only the 4228 stands a decent chance of handling the VHF digitals we will see after Feb 2009.

Since we have no VHF digitals right now, I can't vouch for how effective the 4228 will be. Others have suggested, from other DMAs, that the 4228 does the job. But, you may need to look at a VHF antenna if you're looking to get WWCP, WQED, WTOV or WPCW.

WQED will have 25Kw. Doesn't sound like much, but it should provide a significant improvement to reception, especially in those areas where the current WQED-DT on channel 38 has been tough to lock in.

Isn't 25kw a gigantic amount for a VHF channel?

Hopefully we'll see the FCC become friendlier to all these application, because right now DTV coverage is just missing the mark.

The tower location was chosen because Channel 4 is short spaced between Pittsburgh, Buffalo, NY and Columbus, OH. WTAE-DT also uses a directional antenna because of WSFJ-TV, Newark, OH. Both of those problems go away next February. A third problem is their digital antenna is 20 meters (about 66 feet) lower than their analog Channel 4 antenna. One UHF digital station in Columbus has asked for 1700 kw (not likely to be granted) but even without more power the WTAE-DT signal that clearly does not replicate their analog coverage could be improved post-transition.

As someone at the true fringe of the Pittsburgh stations' broadcast area (on most of the coverage maps I am somewhere a mile or so inside or outside each circle), I'm hopeful that all of this approval by the FCC is gonna go through. WTAE simply does not come in out here unless there is massive tropo or diurnal effect.

The thing that I thought was weird with this whole situation with WPCW is this: I get the issue with the LP station. Not a surprise, and it is a little dumb that the original request went out for it. But, the FCC offered an open UHF channel for WPCW; I think it was 30.

It's puzzling that they couldn't have taken the other UHF channel and gotten their transmitter up by now.

It doesn't seem to be the case that they wanted VHF 11 all along. Obviously, or they would not have requested a high UHF channel to begin with.

So, why all the bother? The transition is going to be a pain enough as it is without adding further issues.
After all is said and done with getting WPCW-DT on the air, lets HOPE that through all this that WPXI's flawless signal is not messed up by moving them to another allocation. I can live without WPCW but not WPXI!!

After all is said and done with getting WPCW-DT on the air, lets HOPE that through all this that WPXI's flawless signal is not messed up by moving them to another allocation. I can live without WPCW but not WPXI!!

How would WPXI-DT be messed up by any of this? Aside from perhaps a boost in ERP at some future point, as the FCC is coming around on the power issue, their ch 48 should see no changes.

Isn't 25kw a gigantic amount for a VHF channel?

Hopefully we'll see the FCC become friendlier to all these application, because right now DTV coverage is just missing the mark.

As someone at the true fringe of the Pittsburgh stations' broadcast area (on most of the coverage maps I am somewhere a mile or so inside or outside each circle), I'm hopeful that all of this approval by the FCC is gonna go through. WTAE simply does not come in out here unless there is massive tropo or diurnal effect.

To answer your first question not really. It only takes about 15 kw to replicate the contour of a 316 kw high VHF analog station but the extra 10 kw will help with the higher noise floor compared to a digital UHF station. As for WTAE-DT I don't expect them to do anything regarding their coverage till after the analog shutdown. I suppose one possibility would be moving their transmitting antenna to the WPCB tower in Wall, PA. That would improve their coverage to the immediate Pittsburgh area but would hurt their coverage to the South unless they added an LD repeater just south of Morgantown.

I had a gift card for BB and, after being fed up with messing with the amplified rabbit ears from wal-mart on an hourly basis to try and get picture to stay, I went and bought one of the indoor Terk antennas (HDTVa, I believe it is). Most of the digital stations, including the Fox/ABC 8 from Johnstown come in decently (and a lot more stable than the Phillips rabbit ears) however, if indeed some of the stations will be broadcasting on VHF instead of UHF after February, this Terk might not do so well then. It seems decent for picking up UHF channels, but for picking up any VHF ones, the dipoles look pretty much like any other indoor antenna...meaning I'll be lucky to pick up stations within 20 miles of my home...and Johnstown or any other nearby market is a fat chance.

Has anyone else in the Pittsburgh area had experience with this particular antenna (good or bad), and if so would it make more sense to keep it or return it and go for one of the outdoor ones that some of you recommended earlier in the thread? I believe the ChannelMaster only cost 15 to 20 bucks more than the indoor Terk that I got.

Has anyone else in the Pittsburgh area had experience with this particular antenna (good or bad), and if so would it make more sense to keep it or return it and go for one of the outdoor ones that some of you recommended earlier in the thread?

I tried a Terk once and picked up nothing. Although I'm out in the sticks with the closest transmitter being WWCP's, even that didn't come in but does with my WinTV USB's whip antenna. My outdoor one picks up 29 even pointing away from it towards Pittsburgh.

If you can do it, go with an outdoor antenna and you can't go wrong.

After all is said and done with getting WPCW-DT on the air, lets HOPE that through all this that WPXI's flawless signal is not messed up by moving them to another allocation. I can live without WPCW but not WPXI!!

dxernut...I knew there was a reason that you are my favorite poster on the board! By the way, no worries...we'll be just fine!

FYI...I am looking forward to some great HD pix from Beijing starting August 8th. (Sorry for the cheap plug!) I hope I'm not disappointed.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

Ok, here's a question i'll throw out there since it's always bothered me a little.

My TV has a mode called "JustScan" it's a 1:1 pixel mapping mode for any 1080i/p source off of a digital input. I can't use it with the ATSC tuner, but I can with my cable box.

WPXI has framing issues which manifest themselves as a light colored line running down the left hand side of the picture when viewing HD programming in 1:1 pixel mapping mode. Obviously you can't see it normally due to overscan. Is this a WPXI issue or an issue with the network feed itself?

WTAE/ABC and KDKA/CBS seem to be fine on this issue. WPGH/Fox has this issue but it shows itself as extra lines at the top of the picture (they appear to be extra lines wrapped around from the bottom).

It would be nice if these things sorted themselves out eventually. As newer and newer TVs come out and as the distinction between a computer display and a TV blur even more, i would think most TVs would start to show images in 1:1 mode by default and nix overscan all together.

My TV has a mode called "JustScan" it's a 1:1 pixel mapping mode for any 1080i/p source off of a digital input. I can't use it with the ATSC tuner, but I can with my cable box.

WPXI has framing issues which manifest themselves as a light colored line running down the left hand side of the picture when viewing HD programming in 1:1 pixel mapping mode. Obviously you can't see it normally due to overscan. Is this a WPXI issue or an issue with the network feed itself?

For those not familiar with 1:1 Pixel mapping (like me):

"1:1 pixel mapping is a video scaling technique used in some display devices, such as LCD monitors. A monitor that has been set to 1:1 pixel mapping will try to display an input source without scaling it, such that each pixel received is mapped to a single pixel on the monitor. This will often result in a black border around the video displayed unless the input resolution is higher or the same as the monitor's native resolution. This technique is often helpful if you want to stop a video being stretched and distorted by the monitor."

I read a comment that someone made that said, "...it should technically be called un-scaled display mode."

I have to admit that I have not seen this on our station's monitoring. I wonder if something is going on with the cable head end's signal processing? Do you see this during network feeds only or during local programming? I sure wish you had some way of looking at the off-air signal for this issue.

I'll try to make some sense of this and dig into some research as well. (It used to be so easy making pictures and putting them in the air!!!)

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

I have to admit that I have not seen this on our station's monitoring. I wonder if something is going on with the cable head end's signal processing? Do you see this during network feeds only or during local programming? I sure wish you had some way of looking at the off-air signal for this issue.

I'll try to make some sense of this and dig into some research as well. (It used to be so easy making pictures and putting them in the air!!!)

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

Here's why I don't think it's the head end.

If it's an upconverted SD feed. Everything is fine. The image is pillarboxed properly and the pillars are black with no lines on the side. If it's an actual widescreen HD program, that's when the issue appears. Presumably, Comcast doesn't know any difference between SD upconverted stuff and HD stuff coming from WPXI-HD, it should just be a 1080i stream regardless of the source material. Obviously, this will usually only manifest itself with network programming since the amount of local HD stuff is slim to none.

However, the fact that WPXI does their news in HD will give me an opportunity to test. I'll check out the 11pm news tonight and see if there are any edge anomalies. If they don't exist than I guess we can assume it's either the network feed or something that's done to the processing of the network feed.

Like I said, WPGH has edge anomalies as well (though, they are at the top).

Nothing may be technically "wrong" since the ATSC spec allows for 16 pixels on each side and 8 at the top and bottom to be outside the "clean aperture" area of the picture. I just like to watch my TV without scaling whenever possible because it generally enhances quality and puts more picture on the screen and artifacts on the edge can be distracting.

The ones on WPXI aren't nearly as distracting as WPGH since it's a solid line rather than a dancing line shifted from the lower portion of the picture.

So, my memory must be failing or something's changed. I just flipped on Last Comic Standing on WPXI and the show is SD and showing noise at the TOP of the screen, but only in the image area and not in the pillarbox area.

I'll try to get some pictures uploaded at some point.

So, my memory must be failing or something's changed. I just flipped on Last Comic Standing on WPXI and the show is SD and showing noise at the TOP of the screen, but only in the image area and not in the pillarbox area.

I'll try to get some pictures uploaded at some point.

I'm in a completely different market, and I see that as well. Not WPXI's fault.

No episode of this show has been HD.

- Trip

So, my memory must be failing or something's changed. I just flipped on Last Comic Standing on WPXI and the show is SD and showing noise at the TOP of the screen, but only in the image area and not in the pillarbox area.

I'll try to get some pictures uploaded at some point.

I'm in a completely different market, and I see that as well. Not WPXI's fault.

No episode of this show has been HD.

- Trip

yeah I saw that too. sometimes I've seen it on the top on programs and sometimes along the left side of the screen. one weird thing I saw the other night which shocked me was static (audio and visible lines)...like you would see on analog...on the digital version of 40 (religious channel). I was flipping through the channels and it caught my eye...and it wasnt on the other channels so I know it wasnt my tv or CECB. Very stange.

Isnt it great that the picture we're gonna get by the mandatory switch to digital is so much clearer than with analog? :D

This hasn't been discussed here in awhile, so...

Are there any plans to see any alternative programs on 22-2 or 53-2? Will KDKA ever add a second channel? There seems to be a lot of airspace that our local channels are not taking advantage of. What could they add? (like WPXI putting on RTN.) (Disclosure: I still miss The TUBE!) Comments?

Right now, CBS has a policy with it's O&O stations (including KDKA) that says no subchannels. This is to ensure the picture quality doesn't get destroyed by subchannels.

- Trip

one weird thing I saw the other night which shocked me was static (audio and visible lines)...like you would see on analog...on the digital version of 40 (religious channel).

I'd bet they're retransmitting their analog signal on their digital channel.

Are there any plans to see any alternative programs on 22-2 or 53-2? Will KDKA ever add a second channel?

KDKA will never. They are a CBS owned and operated channel. Those channels have a mandate to run one 100% HD channel and nothing else.

As for 22.2... let's see if they can put on one decent channel before we start hoping for two decent channels. When Family Guy reruns are the best ya got, it probably is worth focusing on improving your main channel first. 53.3? Perhaps they can do something.

The problem right now is that besides Weather Plus and RTN, there aren't any good sources of sub-channel content out there at this time. Unless someone gets bold and finds a way to put something like Qubo or Ion on, you're not gonna see anything worth a damn even if they do add a sub. And even then, I'm stretching my definition of "worth a damn".

I don't see a lot of progress on any of this, because I don't think anyone has shown the commitment to expanding by way of subs that RTN has shown.

The less subchannels the better. I'd rather have quality HD picture on a main channel than rehashed junk on a bunch of bandwidth squeezing afterthought channels. PBS-HD on WQED-DT already is much worse (macroblocking, etc.) than when it started out, no doubt because of their multicasting.

I'm returning my Terk HDTVa to BB today...mainly because for the cost, it doesn’t do all that much better than the Phillips MANT310 I got for 20 bucks at wal-mart. I was still having to get up and tweak it from time to time to avoid getting dropouts (and WPXI's "flawless" picture didn’t always remain flawless...most times it was at 97%, but certain times of day it was at 70% and jumpy).

I've determined I'm roughly 60 miles NW from the nearest WWCP (Fox 8) transmitter (they have two, one in Latrobe and one in Altoona) which is one of the channels I can currently get and enjoy daily, but only at about 50-60% signal strength and that isn’t stable. So I'm ramping up my quest to find an antenna that will get me get also the locals around PGH and WWCP at 80% or higher across the board as well as occasional reception of WJAC (which you guys have said is a long shot since we're west.)

As has been mentioned there are several antennas I can get that will probably accomplish this, but as I've said the big problem is getting it on my roof. Fortunately I have a chimney so once I get an antenna and find a way to get it up there (maybe I could rent a cherry picker for a few hours) I have something stable to attach it to.

Radio Shack sells a 13 ft antenna that supposedly has a range of 190 miles...it's directional but I wonder if it would still give decent reception of the locals here if I aimed it towards WWCP or WJAC...?

I'm returning my Terk HDTVa to BB today...mainly because for the cost, it doesn’t do all that much better than the Phillips MANT310 I got for 20 bucks at wal-mart. I was still having to get up and tweak it from time to time to avoid getting dropouts (and WPXI's "flawless" picture didn’t always remain flawless...most times it was at 97%, but certain times of day it was at 70% and jumpy).

I've determined I'm roughly 60 miles NW from the nearest WWCP (Fox 8) transmitter (they have two, one in Latrobe and one in Altoona) which is one of the channels I can currently get and enjoy daily, but only at about 50-60% signal strength and that isn’t stable. So I'm ramping up my quest to find an antenna that will get me get also the locals around PGH and WWCP at 80% or higher across the board as well as occasional reception of WJAC (which you guys have said is a long shot since we're west.)

As has been mentioned there are several antennas I can get that will probably accomplish this, but as I've said the big problem is getting it on my roof. Fortunately I have a chimney so once I get an antenna and find a way to get it up there (maybe I could rent a cherry picker for a few hours) I have something stable to attach it to.

Radio Shack sells a 13 ft antenna that supposedly has a range of 190 miles...it's directional but I wonder if it would still give decent reception of the locals here if I aimed it towards WWCP or WJAC...?
First of all, strictly speaking, WWCP operates only one Transmitter, the one near Ligonier; the Altoona transmitter is WATM, the ABC affiliate. However both stations are operated by the same company and they provide an SD-only feed of the other's signal as subchannels. If it's Fox HD you're looking for, the 8-1 (RF 29 now, will be RF 8 after next February.)

Now on to the antenna business. Based on the description of your location, I'm guessing your somewhere near Butler or Kittanning. That puts you somewhere from 30 to 40 miles from the Pittsburgh transmitters. "Long distance" antennas by their nature are directional, and by optimizing for the WWCP and WJAC signals, the Pittsburgh stations will be off to the right of the antenna's main beam. Depending exactly where you are something like 75° to 90°. If the difference were closer to 180° you might see some reception sneaking in through the back of the antenna. If the difference were less (say 15°) you might be okay.
Your best bet is to use a rotator, or check out some of the multi antenna arrays over on the AVS Antenna Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623) as well as the AVS section on antennas (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=546066), rotors, and related reception gear..

I'm not a huge fan of the Radio Shack antennas - I think there are better ones within the same general price point.

If you have not yet done so, use one the of online signal analysis tools, such as Antennaweb (http://www.antennaweb.org/) or my personal favorite, TV Fool (http://www.tvfool.com/) to get a better understanding of which signals are out there and from what direction.

As the following display from TV Fool shows, a random location I selected near Saxonburg has plenty of available signals, but they occupy an arc of nearly 180°.
WJAC is located at 123° from this location, while most of the Pittsburgh stations are at around 210° -- that's darn near 90°

http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q341/MainyYak/NearSaxonburgPA.png

Results at your specific location will vary, but this should give you some idea.

Best of luck.

Radio Shack sells a 13 ft antenna that supposedly has a range of 190 miles...it's directional but I wonder if it would still give decent reception of the locals here if I aimed it towards WWCP or WJAC...?

No such thing as an antenna with a 190 mi range. Truth is, even with really good VHF propagation, the furthest a channel is apt to carry under normal conditions (no weather changes that give a boost) is about 100 mi.

UHF, where most of the HDTV spectrum is, can only be reasonably expected to travel 60 mi.

You'll also find that most of the reports of longer range reception of UHF HDTV are under particular circumstance. For example, out west a fair number of folks get reception at 70-90 on UHF because of the lower hills and higher towers.

The only transmitter in our region that comes close to a similar effect is WKBN's tower in Youngstown. (And, actually, WKBN will be getting a small boost when they move their DT transmitter to the top of their tower).

Point being, you cannot, especially in an area like western PA, reasonably expect to receive channels over more than 60 mi away. Even at 60 mi, you need a big antenna rig (91xg, CM 4228), a pre-amp, a rotator and some luck with your location.

The less subchannels the better. I'd rather have quality HD picture on a main channel than rehashed junk on a bunch of bandwidth squeezing afterthought channels. PBS-HD on WQED-DT already is much worse (macroblocking, etc.) than when it started out, no doubt because of their multicasting.

I've never had a problem with WQED (or WNEO (PBS) Youngstown, for that matter) with regard to their HD pictures, and both have SD channels piggybacking their signal. And PBS' HD picture, in my opinion, is superior to the commercial broadcast networks. All of the NBC stations I get (WPXI, WJAC, WTOV, and WFMJ) all have a superb HD picture, and all have subchannels. I can also switch between WKBN HD (has a subchannel) and KDKA HD (no subchannel) and not see one lick of a difference. The only place I ever see a problem is with WPXI's RTN pixellating now and then, as it seems to not get a lot of bandwidth. So the CBS rule, in my opinion, doesn't seem to do a lot. But then again, do I really need another Pittsburgh-based weather subchannel? ;-) Like I've said before The TUBE was the poster child for what subchannel programming was to be.

Since the technology is there, I'd like to see more stuff via OTA digital! (and not just see an SD rehash of what is on the primary channel.) Variety is the spice of life.

Now on to the antenna business. Based on the description of your location, I'm guessing your somewhere near Butler or Kittanning. That puts you somewhere from 30 to 40 miles from the Pittsburgh transmitters. "Long distance" antennas by their nature are directional, and by optimizing for the WWCP and WJAC signals, the Pittsburgh stations will be off to the right of the antenna's main beam. Depending exactly where you are something like 75° to 90°. If the difference were closer to 180° you might see some reception sneaking in through the back of the antenna. If the difference were less (say 15°) you might be okay.

Thanks to all of you for the advice. Actually I live in Brentwood, which is a little over 45 miles NW from the Ligonier transmitter of WWCP...according to Antennaweb.org. I based my 60mi on a mapquest of my area to Ligonier in general, which was off apparently.

I'm less than 15 miles from most of the Pittsburgh Transmitters. However the TVfool example you gave is still quite similar to my actual situation, as both WWCP and WJAC are a little more than 90 degrees from the local Pittsburgh stations.

I hope I'm not missing the point of what you guys are saying here (sorry if I am :o ), but the fact that the local stations are less than 15 mi from me and the ones I want are 45 or more away makes me wonder if I could use one long-range amplified directional antenna aimed towards WWCP and/or WJAC to receive them while still getting the local pittsburgh channels?

From the signal reception patterns I've seen on suppossed "multidirectional" and directional antennas, they all have a degree of directionality to them, and the directional antennas have extremely mild "multi-directional" characteristics right around the antenna. Or am I completely off here? :o

The Tube is an unfair example in this argument. It was the case of a sub that was superior to its primary channel.

My primary point on subs is that the argument is largely moot. Besides RTN, Weather Plus and whatever your local PBS opts to provide (WPSU offer PBS World, a whole channel apparently dedicated to Alan Alda), there isn't an army of people lining up to provide sub-channels.

The advantage RTN has over other potential subs is that their cost of production is near nil. They order dirt cheap, old programs that come with a loyal following. A few episodes of Get Smart and the A-Team stir the nostalgia and away you go. Suddenly you have a faintly respectable viewership.

And how does another network, besides cloning RTN's programming, pull that off?

Actually, if you can answer that question by matching desirable content to cost-effectiveness, you might just have yourself a great business model for a new sub network. Who knows?

The only one of the potential sub networks I see that has that sort of advantage is Qubo. But, Qubo is tied pretty squarely to Ion, which has long been trying to build out more OTA in more markets. And they seem more interested in selling their cartoon programming in blocks to affiliates who don't want to program Saturday morning cartoons anymore.

And you have the real problem with all TV: possessive ownership. A lot of networks bought into the 1980s/1990s model of cable TV. Therefore, they still view TV programming as a closely guarded asset only to be sold under the right conditions to the right cable or sat provider. They're not going to give that model up easily.

Someone is going to have to make big money with a sub network before you see a real race to provide more. RTN is a qualified success. The Tube is a success only in the Firefly sen of the word. Besides those two, there is no argument for subs. Even Weather Plus wasn't a raging success, or else you have to explain why NBC Universal acquired The Weather Channel.

It isn't a proven business model. All the HD quality arguments aside, no one is going to rush into this market until an opportunity is clearly demonstrated.

The HD quality argument has its limits.

I mean, WPMY would pull better ratings if it just gave up its My Network TV affiliation and broadcast random bits of cryptic code preceded by strange musical phrases. So, it's not like 6 SD subs on that channel would be any great loss.

But obviously so far in our market only Cox (they're planning to switch 6.3 to RTN post-transition) and PBS have shown any ongoing initiative to do this. Whatever motivation WPMY had seems to have gone down the, er, tube.

There are many content providers for stations such as World Championship Sports Network (http://web.wcsn.com/), .2 Network (http://www.dot2network.com/), FUNimation Channel (http://www.funimationchannel.com/), and VTV (http://www.thevarietychannel.com/). In fact, when The Tube shut down, WPHL-17 Philadelphia put WSCN on in its place.

There was also the ABC News Now channel, which some stations were co-branding like the AccuWeather channel. Since we have two weather channels, it'd be nice if TAE had given us something different.

If QED Communications finally got that WQEX monkey off its back, someone might put Ion, an actual broadcast network, on 16 and provide Pittsburgh with their channels (Qubo, Ion Life, and Worship).

As for subchannels lessening the quality of the main channel, it isn't a problem if the megabytes are allocated correctly. I checked KDKA and they were running 2-1 at 15 MB, compared to WJAC which was allocating 12.75 MB for 6-1, 1.6 for 6-2, and 2.6 for 6-3. However, there was no difference in picture quality between the two.

Thanks to all of you for the advice. Actually I live in Brentwood, which is a little over 45 miles NW from the Ligonier transmitter of WWCP...according to Antennaweb.org. I based my 60mi on a mapquest of my area to Ligonier in general, which was off apparently.

I'm less than 15 miles from most of the Pittsburgh Transmitters. However the TVfool example you gave is still quite similar to my actual situation, as both WWCP and WJAC are a little more than 90 degrees from the local Pittsburgh stations.

I hope I'm not missing the point of what you guys are saying here (sorry if I am :o ), but the fact that the local stations are less than 15 mi from me and the ones I want are 45 or more away makes me wonder if I could use one long-range amplified directional antenna aimed towards WWCP and/or WJAC to receive them while still getting the local pittsburgh channels?

From the signal reception patterns I've seen on suppossed "multidirectional" and directional antennas, they all have a degree of directionality to them, and the directional antennas have extremely mild "multi-directional" characteristics right around the antenna. Or am I completely off here? :o


The most accurate answer is "it depends." I live less than 15 miles fro the WWCP tower, yet my window for reliable reception is maybe 2° - that means the antenna has to be pointed in a very specific direction in order to avoid some buildings and trees my neighbors refuse to remove for my convenience. :)
Your situation may vary as well. That nearly 90° difference between the nearby stations and the distant ones is huge. For one, you likely require a pre-amp to pull in the Johnstown stations (particularly given the TV Fool results you posted,) while the Pittsburgh stations are close enough that a preamp may be counterproductive. Or not.

There is no "magic antenna" out there that will do the job you're asking.

The other consideration is how many TV sets in your home do you plan to serve with the antenna. If only one, then the antenna/preamp/rotator solution will likely be the most sensible. IF multiple sets, then multiple antennas, each optimized for either local or distant signals might make the most sense.

JK77 and MeowMeow --

Excellent comments! Good discussion! Any or all of the networks listed by JK77 would all be welcome in the Pittsburgh market! Again, there's a lot of good bandwidth out there going to waste (and yes, the biggest culprit is channel 16!)

For example, though WPXI is running two subs already, PCNC would be an excellent addition to the airwaves here. As someone else once said back in the spring, it would also be great, for example, to have other NCAA tournament games on CBS subchannels (I know, the CBS rule shoots that in the foot here.)

I think that another possibility is that OTA people like us are probably in the minority. Many people I talk to who rely on cable or satellite do not realize the wealth of programming that is available for free. If a station puts up programming on a subchannel, I'm sure that the cable and satellite companies will balk at having to pick it up as well. So from the financial standpoint, how will you get advertisers to pay $$ to advertise on a channel that nobody (or very few people) watch. But you've got to admit, the JG Wentworth commercials you see on RTN ("I want my money, and I want it NOW") are hokey to the point of being hilarious.

I'm also glad to see I wasn't the only one who enjoyed The Tube.

EDIT: It's been a while, but last year I got the religious channel WDLI out of Canton via tropo, and they offer five channels of programming (17-1 to 17-5).

There are many content providers for stations such as World Championship Sports Network (http://web.wcsn.com/), .2 Network (http://www.dot2network.com/), FUNimation Channel (http://www.funimationchannel.com/), and VTV (http://www.thevarietychannel.com/). In fact, when The Tube shut down, WPHL-17 Philadelphia put WSCN on in its place.

Some of these channels are barely off the ground.

Look at .2Network: http://dot2network.com/national/press/firstaffils

Now, I'll concede they have potential. Cheap source of material. But, this has been a long run-up to get to where they have six affiliates signed and are threatening to actually put some programming on by October.

I'll also offer this: if they say in April that they'll have something by october, be incredibly suspicious. My experience in the business world is that six months is the ideal BS time frame, because it's short enough to sound near and long enough that you can blame some variable.

Point being: .2Network isn't even live, and they're talking about being cash flow positive (their words, not mine) in 2009.

And that's the problem with a lot of these companies right now. A lot of them stink of being OTC BB companies. "Oh, we've got this great plan, if you all just hang in there a little longer, it'll be totally awesome..."

And mind you, every now and then, these companies even kinda succeed. A classic, outside broadcast, is Syntax-Brillian, which for a while looked very up a cheap manufacturer of HDTVs. And then they collapsed because the company was run by some shady characters who couldn't keep two pennies together if their lives depended on it.

Right now, sub channels don't have the backing they need, because no one takes the format seriously. Now, I'll admit, should the FCC decided to push for sub "must carry", it would get more interesting fast. But, right now the business model simply isn't there.

So from the financial standpoint, how will you get advertisers to pay $$ to advertise on a channel that nobody (or very few people) watch. But you've got to admit, the JG Wentworth commercials you see on RTN ("I want my money, and I want it NOW") are hokey to the point of being hilarious.

I'll deeply disagree on that point. Advertisers pay for time alongside reruns of Cops at 3 am.

The most accurate answer is "it depends." I live less than 15 miles fro the WWCP tower, yet my window for reliable reception is maybe 2° - that means the antenna has to be pointed in a very specific direction in order to avoid some buildings and trees my neighbors refuse to remove for my convenience. :)
Your situation may vary as well. That nearly 90° difference between the nearby stations and the distant ones is huge. For one, you likely require a pre-amp to pull in the Johnstown stations (particularly given the TV Fool results you posted,) while the Pittsburgh stations are close enough that a preamp may be counterproductive. Or not.

There is no "magic antenna" out there that will do the job you're asking.

The other consideration is how many TV sets in your home do you plan to serve with the antenna. If only one, then the antenna/preamp/rotator solution will likely be the most sensible. IF multiple sets, then multiple antennas, each optimized for either local or distant signals might make the most sense.

I agree with all of the good advice regarding antennas that has been discussed here thus far. However, don't forget that another factor to consider is how good your tuner is in discriminating the signal. For example, my Zenith DTV converter box is far superior to the on-board tuner of my television. Tuner quality should also factor into the equation!

I'm returning my Terk HDTVa to BB today...mainly because for the cost, it doesn’t do all that much better than the Phillips MANT310 I got for 20 bucks at wal-mart. I was still having to get up and tweak it from time to time to avoid getting dropouts (and WPXI's "flawless" picture didn’t always remain flawless...most times it was at 97%, but certain times of day it was at 70% and jumpy).

I've determined I'm roughly 60 miles NW from the nearest WWCP (Fox 8) transmitter (they have two, one in Latrobe and one in Altoona) which is one of the channels I can currently get and enjoy daily, but only at about 50-60% signal strength and that isn’t stable. So I'm ramping up my quest to find an antenna that will get me get also the locals around PGH and WWCP at 80% or higher across the board as well as occasional reception of WJAC (which you guys have said is a long shot since we're west.)

As has been mentioned there are several antennas I can get that will probably accomplish this, but as I've said the big problem is getting it on my roof. Fortunately I have a chimney so once I get an antenna and find a way to get it up there (maybe I could rent a cherry picker for a few hours) I have something stable to attach it to.

Radio Shack sells a 13 ft antenna that supposedly has a range of 190 miles...it's directional but I wonder if it would still give decent reception of the locals here if I aimed it towards WWCP or WJAC...?

I only mean't flawless in my perticular situation. WPXI has never flinched for me even with a short piece of coax dangling out the back of the tv.2,13,has had issues with aircraft going over the house even with a roof antenna, but not WPXI.

Could anyone recommend any USB HDTV tuners that I could use to pick up these broadcasts? I live in Pittsburgh.

For example, though WPXI is running two subs already, PCNC would be an excellent addition to the airwaves here.

I mentioned PCNC being a nice addition at 11-3 in the pre-RTN days, but that first "C" is the reason :).

EDIT: It's been a while, but last year I got the religious channel WDLI out of Canton via tropo, and they offer five channels of programming (17-1 to 17-5).

TBN stations usually run four subchannels: The Church Channel, JCTV, Enlace USA, and Smile of a Child.

Some of these channels are barely off the ground.

They have to start sometime and besides, anything is better than two weather channels and two SD simulcasts. Atleast Cox gave us RTN and WQED created The Neighborhood Channel to change things up a bit.

Right now, sub channels don't have the backing they need, because no one takes the format seriously.

Even when you have strong affiliates and carriage on cable systems like The Tube had, it doesn't mean the network will survive.

Could anyone recommend any USB HDTV tuners that I could use to pick up these broadcasts? I live in Pittsburgh.

I have a WinTV-HVR 950 stick that I got at Radio Shack when they were running their $79.99 - $20.00 rebate deal. The whip antenna that comes with it works great if you're near the transmitters. Speaking from personal experience, I was able to receive everything except WTAE in UPMC Shadyside.

I use TSReader (http://www.coolstf.com/tsreader/) along with the USB stick which is a cool program that shows the guts of an ATSC signal. In conjunction with VLC player (http://www.videolan.org/vlc/), you can record and watch stations without the WinTV 2000 or 32 application.

A very interesting discussion here regarding alternate programming on the subs.
Keep in mind that at best, stations are looking at OTA for only 1 in 5 viewers, so they are focusing on those things that maximize revenue for the 80% of viewers who watch via cable or satellite. As I understand the rules, "must carry" only applies to the primary channel - and often stations do not invoke "must carry" in order to get other considerations from the cable and sat carriers (such as agreements to carry the HD signal).
Once stations find programming to put on sub channels, find a way to get those subs added to cable lineups, and find advertisers to make it worth doing, then you'll see more of these "extras" showing up.
Also keep in mind, local TV stations are more concerned right now with getting the transition done. I think once that happens and everything returns to some kind of equilibrium, the sales and programming departments will find plenty of additional work for the engineering folks.

A very interesting discussion here regarding alternate programming on the subs.


I'd love to see someone put their primary channel on a 12-hour delay. No...don't read ANYTHING into that...it's just something I would like.

Dave

I'd love to see someone put their primary channel on a 12-hour delay. No...don't read ANYTHING into that...it's just something I would like.

Dave

I couldn't picture the main networks tolerating an affiliate doing that. A significant portion of the ratings crunch is still about stealing the viewers' eyeballs during specific stretches of the day. Of course, a struggling network like the CW might go for it, since they're now officially performing worse in primetime than a mid-season, mid-day NHL game. Definitely wouldn't be the four majors.

Also keep in mind, local TV stations are more concerned right now with getting the transition done. I think once that happens and everything returns to some kind of equilibrium, the sales and programming departments will find plenty of additional work for the engineering folks.

This is very true. Actually, I've been surprised we haven't seen more, considering how obsessed most media organizations are with squeezing every nickel out of their resources. I know at this time a lot of the locals are still trying to leverage their websites, but you'd think more people would look at the low cost of a sub as a source of new revenue.

- - -

I think I mentioned this in another forum, but it might be worth repeating (you all be the judge of that). I'd be intrigued to see if anyone realizes they could set up a decent LP providing something to the order of five or six SD channels with no HD and gain a surprising amount of bang for their buck.

After all, half the RF channels are about go black in a few months. Lots of free real estate, if you will.

I don't know the business that well, but if someone is making money transmitting America One and Ion and BGN and such, you'd think there would be room to maybe pick up an FTA channel and retransmit it or something.

Then again, look how few ABCs took up with News Now.

I'd love to see someone put their primary channel on a 12-hour delay. No...don't read ANYTHING into that...it's just something I would like.

Dave

:D
Especially the guys with their finger on the George Carlin button during NASCAR races.

---
On another topic Dave, I've been watching some of the NBC widescreen but not HD programming (Fear Itself is a good example) -- To my eyes, so long as they avoid high motion and keep the lighting at decent levels, the on air product is surprisingly decent quality. I'm wondering how much difference you see at the plant?
Based on some of the bandwidth management we do for video conferencing at my place of collecting the mortgage payment, we've found significantly better PQ at lower rates that avoid hitting the bandwidth ceiling compared to high bit rates that use the entire pipe.
Just sayin' . . .

I've been watching some of the NBC widescreen but not HD programming (Fear Itself is a good example) -- To my eyes, so long as they avoid high motion and keep the lighting at decent levels, the on air product is surprisingly decent quality. I'm wondering how much difference you see at the plant?

I don't know how to answer you on this one. First, I'm not usually here during prime time, so I miss these shows on our gold-standard monitor. Secondly, I don't usually watch this show at home. Sorry. More often than not, I'll have RTN on. (I have to sheepishly admit that my guilty pleasure is watching Nashville Star. What can I say!)

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

I don't know how to answer you on this one. First, I'm not usually here during prime time, so I miss these shows on our gold-standard monitor. Secondly, I don't usually watch this show at home. Sorry. More often than not, I'll have RTN on. (I have to sheepishly admit that my guilty pleasure is watching Nashville Star. What can I say!)

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

No problem Dave. I used Fear Itself as one example; I believe Nashville Star is also another SD widescreen offering.
It seems that NBC is doing quite a bit of widescreen non HD in prime time. I know it drives the purists wild, but in my opinion, helps the cause by giving average viewers a 16:9 experience without all the stretching and contorting that is all too common on many of the HD cable channels (yes TBS, and TNT, I'm taking about you.)

For those that are buying CECB's around here, are we (Pennsylvanians) supposed to be paying sales tax on the full amount of the boxes or on the amount after the coupon is applied. I bought boxes from BB in West Mifflin and they didnt charge me sales tax until after the coupon was applied, but I bought a DTVPal at the Sears at CIII mall today and they charged me tax on the full price.

So, did I get a deal from BB, or did I get swindled by Sears?

For those that are buying CECB's around here, are we (Pennsylvanians) supposed to be paying sales tax on the full amount of the boxes or on the amount after the coupon is applied. I bought boxes from BB in West Mifflin and they didnt charge me sales tax until after the coupon was applied, but I bought a DTVPal at the Sears at CIII mall today and they charged me tax on the full price.

So, did I get a deal from BB, or did I get swindled by Sears?

I posted a story WTAE did about this issue: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13493554&postcount=2948

Stores are supposed to deduct the coupon from the base price of the box, then apply the sales tax. It is good to see Best Buy finally fixed their system to calculate the price correctly.

For those that are buying CECB's around here, are we (Pennsylvanians) supposed to be paying sales tax on the full amount of the boxes or on the amount after the coupon is applied. I bought boxes from BB in West Mifflin and they didnt charge me sales tax until after the coupon was applied, but I bought a DTVPal at the Sears at CIII mall today and they charged me tax on the full price.

So, did I get a deal from BB, or did I get swindled by Sears?

Don't blame Sears - the problem is PA sales tax application is a real bug-a-boo for lots of retailers.

When it comes to what amount you pay tax on, the way it's suppose to work is the taxable amount is figured after any discounts are applied, including the CECB coupons.

Lots of stores get the sales tax wrong. My local Giant Eagle can't seem to get their computers to recognize that a particular coupon goes with a taxable item and always charges me tax on the item's full amount. Yet the computers at the Kmart down the street don't have a problem adjusting the sales tax when I hand my coupons to them.

So in essense Sears didn't do that right, and you should have pointed that out to them at the time of purchase. You could go back and complain to them, but they will probably tell you there is nothing they can do. You're only course then is to file for a refund with the PA Dept of Revnue.

And just for the record I picked up two Zenith DTT901's a few days ago at Circuit City and they got the PA sales tax right. :)

On another note since getting my DTT901's that I mentioned in another post I've been trying them out. One thing I've noted is that some stations lack any information at all on their programing (Channel 8-1,-2 in particular); and other stations seem not to know what program they are broadcasting since their EPG lists something completely different. :(

I mean how difficult can it be? :confused: The station program director decides what is going to be broadcast and when, and then hands the schedule to someone to enter it, and then someone loads the programs when they need to be broadcast. And whle I realize that sometimes circumstances force unforseen schedule changes, these are not the days of printed TV schedules where the schedules had to be sent out weeks in advance.

And since most printed TV guide appear to be in the last throes of life, will we as the viewing public get decent schedueles (along with decent detials about the program - but that's a whole other subject :rolleyes:) from the stations???? :confused:

On another note since getting my DTT901's that I mentioned in another post I've been trying them out. One thing I've noted is that some stations lack any information at all on their programing (Channel 8-1,-2 in particular); and other stations seem not to know what program they are broadcasting since their EPG lists something completely different. :(

I mean how difficult can it be? :confused: The station program director decides what is going to be broadcast and when, and then hands the schedule to someone to enter it, and then someone loads the programs when they need to be broadcast. And while I realize that sometimes circumstances force unforeseen schedule changes, these are not the days of printed TV schedules where the schedules had to be sent out weeks in advance.

And since most printed TV guide appear to be in the last throes of life, will we as the viewing public get decent schedules (along with decent details about the program - but that's a whole other subject :rolleyes:) from the stations???? :confused:

You have to realize some of these stations really do operate on a shoestring. WWCP is a perfect example. Right now anything not directly related to keeping the place on the air, or required by the FCC is secondary. Entering the data into the system does not require a PhD, but it is not as simple as say responding to a forum post :). I suspect these kinds of things will become part of the routine once the transition is done.

But I agree, the lack of programming information is a huge frustration.

So in essense Sears didn't do that right, and you should have pointed that out to them at the time of purchase. You could go back and complain to them, but they will probably tell you there is nothing they can do. You're only course then is to file for a refund with the PA Dept of Revnue.


Actually I did say something when I bought it. Before the transaction was complete I asked them if the tax was gonna be calculated on the whole amount or the out of pocket amount, and when they said it was on the whole amount I told them that I didnt think that was how it was supposed to be, as I bought a box at BB and they only charged tax on the out of pocket amount. One of the clerks indicated that I was wrong, as he said he asked his manager and his manager said tax was calculated on the whole thing.

I went back today and got them to give me the cash back, after speaking to several employees, explaining that I wouldnt have bought a gift card for that amount if it wasnt the true out of pocket, and then asking to see a manger. I lost some gas money but I got satisfaction. :)

I mean how difficult can it be? The station program director decides what is going to be broadcast and when, and then hands the schedule to someone to enter it, and then someone loads the programs when they need to be broadcast.

Many if not most stations rely on a third party to provide EPG info. Tribune Media Services is one of them. They seem to be the "TV Guide" of the digital age. If they get it wrong, then it will be wrong in your EPG. THAT'S how difficult it can be.

Dave
WPXI Engineering

Many if not most stations rely on a third party to provide EPG info. Tribune Media Services is one of them. They seem to be the "TV Guide" of the digital age. If they get it wrong, then it will be wrong in your EPG. THAT'S how difficult it can be.

Automation is how they pass the savings onto ... well, not you... but the shareholders / stakeholders.

On another note since getting my DTT901's that I mentioned in another post I've been trying them out. One thing I've noted is that some stations lack any information at all on their programing (Channel 8-1,-2 in particular); and other stations seem not to know what program they are broadcasting since their EPG lists something completely different. :(

Unlike WQEX and WPCB, WWCP/WATM usually has program data in their streams, but there are rare times where it is missing. You just happened to stumble upon them at an inopportune time.

Since the forum lost a bunch of posts, I'll recap...

There was a discussion of WJAC's directional pattern. I had noted that the current signal puts 42.85 kW in its weakest direction, while the maximized facility will put 84.1 kW in its weakest direction.

- Trip

Has anyone seen the new promo WTAE had on today announcing soon local news will be in HD? It's great news! WTAE will soon be 50 years old! Thanks for all the great shows, local and national . Growing up in Pittsburgh WTAE provided years of good entertainment and unforgetable local celebritys. Happy Birthday WTAE !!!:)

A lot of dedicated techs have been working hard all Summer to make this happen.... stay tuned ! ;-) We're excited to say the least.

Dave

Has anyone seen the new promo WTAE had on today announcing soon local news will be in HD? It's great news! WTAE will soon be 50 years old! Thanks for all the great shows, local and national . Growing up in Pittsburgh WTAE provided years of good entertainment and unforgetable local celebritys. Happy Birthday WTAE !!!:)

well...if you have an HDTV it's great news. unfortunately I dont. :(

however, if, in honor of it's 50th birthday, WTAE would be willing to give me an HDTV so that I could enjoy it in high def...I would be the first to put on the party hat and hang the streamers. :D

A lot of dedicated techs have been working hard all Summer to make this happen.... stay tuned ! ;-) We're excited to say the least.

Dave

Making this transition is a HUGE job! Congrats, Dave! I look forward to seeing the final product...it ought to look awesome!

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

A lot of dedicated techs have been working hard all Summer to make this happen.... stay tuned ! ;-) We're excited to say the least.

DaveUh oh... once you go HD... be prepared to get email from me whenever news clips are displayed at the wrong aspect ratio. ;)

Uh oh... once you go HD... be prepared to get email from me whenever news clips are displayed at the wrong aspect ratio. ;)

Will you boycott them? :D

Has anyone seen the new promo WTAE had on today announcing soon local news will be in HD? It's great news! WTAE will soon be 50 years old! Thanks for all the great shows, local and national . Growing up in Pittsburgh WTAE provided years of good entertainment and unforgetable local celebritys. Happy Birthday WTAE !!!:)

The thought of WTAE's morning news in High Def sends chills up my spine. The Don Henley song "Dirty Laundry" applies (...bubble headed bleach blond comes on at five, she'll tell you 'bout the plane crash with a gleam in her eye...) :D

Similarly, Channel 11 is now proclaiming that they "won't waste your time" with features and the like. Let's see in a few months if they keep their word by not having "live (drawn out) team coverage" when the first quarter-inch of snow falls. ;)

Was WPGH-DT having trouble tonight?

This was the first time they've ever dropped out on me (I'm up in Punxsy). Oddly, WPXI-DT, which is the one I lose some times, was rock solid.

Odd tropo event? I know there's an analog 43 in Ohio somewhere that every blue moon I can DX. But, the last time it came in it didn't knock out WPGH when I had the antenna pointed Burghward.

well...if you have an HDTV it's great news. unfortunately I dont. :(

however, if, in honor of it's 50th birthday, WTAE would be willing to give me an HDTV so that I could enjoy it in high def...I would be the first to put on the party hat and hang the streamers. :D

You'll at least loose the side bars on you screen! That's a big improvement

Was WPGH-DT having trouble tonight?

This was the first time they've ever dropped out on me (I'm up in Punxsy). Oddly, WPXI-DT, which is the one I lose some times, was rock solid.

I haven't noticed any problems with WPGH, but I keep seeing lines of pixelation on WPXI every so often.

Odd tropo event? I know there's an analog 43 in Ohio somewhere that every blue moon I can DX. But, the last time it came in it didn't knock out WPGH when I had the antenna pointed Burghward.

WUAB-43 Cleveland. I used to get them during tropo before 53's digital transmitter hit the air.

I haven't noticed any problems with WPGH, but I keep seeing lines of pixelation on WPXI every so often.

WUAB-43 Cleveland. I used to get them during tropo before 53's digital transmitter hit the air.

It must have been some weird co-channeling via tropo, because WPGH is back to solid tonight.

Anyone else have a problem with the KDKA HD signal with Comcast in Pittsburgh? All of my other local networks are crystal clear in HD, but my CBS signal is horrible.

I saw some posts on here where people are posting their signal strength for different channels. How can I get that on mine? I've got a Motorola DCH3416.

Anyone else have a problem with the KDKA HD signal with Comcast in Pittsburgh? All of my other local networks are crystal clear in HD, but my CBS signal is horrible.

I saw some posts on here where people are posting their signal strength for different channels. How can I get that on mine? I've got a Motorola DCH3416.

I don't know if I'd call it a "problem", but at least on DirecTV the Steelers game isn't being shown in HD. That's pretty lame, KDKA.

I don't know if I'd call it a "problem", but at least on DirecTV the Steelers game isn't being shown in HD. That's pretty lame, KDKA.

No HD last night for the Steelers. I think this will be less of a problem next pre-season. I suspect with so much HD mobile gear deployed to the two political conventions, it might have been tough to get the equipment in for last night's game anyway. But I agree, it still sucked.
At least CBS is moving in the right direction by committing to doing all (or nearly all) NFL games in HD this season.

Hi everyone. I'm new here; in fact, what started out as a necessity has now become more curiosity on my part to learn more about this stuff. Hope to learn lots and contribute eventually.

For now, I'll give you my situation, and hopefully someone can point me in the right direction.

I just moved to Pittsburgh (address is 5701 Centre Avenue, Pittsburgh, PA 15206), and live on the 13th floor (total of 16 floors). The apartment building is the tallest in this area btw, especially on the 13th floor where I don't have any obstacles from my window view. I just bought my first TV set in my life, and it's due to arrive in less than a week. Very excited. It's a Samsung LNS4041D (40 inches) and has a ATSC tuner embedded in it. I am currently subscribed to Comcast's basic cable (~$15/month), and am interested in getting OTA HD channels. After looking around a lot of forums and websites, I came across the atennaweb website, and had some questions.

As you can see below, the digital stations available are plentiful (CBS, NBC, FOX, ABC being the most important ones).

https://jshare.johnshopkins.edu/mhwang4/public_html/Availability.JPG

The problem is where my window is located. I live on the side of the apartment such that my balcony windows face southeast-ish, parallel to line C.

https://jshare.johnshopkins.edu/mhwang4/public_html/Map.JPG

From this viewpoint, the only feasible channel I can get seems to be ABC; maybe FOX but 45.4 miles seems a bit far away. All the channels I want to watch are on the other side of the building, for which I have no view of. I'm wondering if there's a solution to this, and what I can do. I was thinking if there was a tall building right across from my view, I could get some signals bouncing off, but that doesn't seem feasible (the apartment across from my view is about 10 stories high). Is it possible to still get a signal originating from the Northwest direction even if I don't have a line of sight? I really hope so, and hope that I am overthinking this. There is a big enough hill about four miles from my view (South) where I can't see what is on the other side. Does anyone think it's enough to deflect some signals to my apartment?

And finally, all the digital signals in my area are UHF. I do remember seeing something about how certain stations may change to VHF come around Feb next year. Should I get a UHF/VFH combo antenna?

Thanks for your help!!

Hi everyone. I'm new here; in fact, what started out as a necessity has now become more curiosity on my part to learn more about this stuff. Hope to learn lots and contribute eventually.

For now, I'll give you my situation, and hopefully someone can point me in the right direction.

I just moved to Pittsburgh (address is 5701 Centre Avenue, Pittsburgh, PA 15206), and live on the 13th floor (total of 16 floors). The apartment building is the tallest in this area btw, especially on the 13th floor where I don't have any obstacles from my window view. I just bought my first TV set in my life, and it's due to arrive in less than a week. Very excited. It's a Samsung LNS4041D (40 inches) and has a ATSC tuner embedded in it. I am currently subscribed to Comcast's basic cable (~$15/month), and am interested in getting OTA HD channels. After looking around a lot of forums and websites, I came across the atennaweb website, and had some questions.

As you can see below, the digital stations available are plentiful (CBS, NBC, FOX, ABC being the most important ones).

https://jshare.johnshopkins.edu/mhwang4/public_html/Availability.JPG

The problem is where my window is located. I live on the side of the apartment such that my balcony windows face southeast-ish, parallel to line C.

https://jshare.johnshopkins.edu/mhwang4/public_html/Map.JPG

From this viewpoint, the only feasible channel I can get seems to be ABC; maybe FOX but 45.4 miles seems a bit far away. All the channels I want to watch are on the other side of the building, for which I have no view of. I'm wondering if there's a solution to this, and what I can do. I was thinking if there was a tall building right across from my view, I could get some signals bouncing off, but that doesn't seem feasible (the apartment across from my view is about 10 stories high). Is it possible to still get a signal originating from the Northwest direction even if I don't have a line of sight? I really hope so, and hope that I am overthinking this. There is a big enough hill about four miles from my view (South) where I can't see what is on the other side. Does anyone think it's enough to deflect some signals to my apartment?

And finally, all the digital signals in my area are UHF. I do remember seeing something about how certain stations may change to VHF come around Feb next year. Should I get a UHF/VFH combo antenna?

Thanks for your help!!

You very likely can get a good bounce signal from the building across from you, just be willing to experiment a lot with antenna placement. But since you're a comcast basic subscriber why not just decode all the local HD channels from them? All the new sets to my understanding come with digital QAM tuners. I monitor WTAE-DT on Comcast basic this way in my office.

Dave

Do yourself a huge favor: ignore AntennaWeb. AnteenaWeb is an evil and dumb website.

Go to TVFool.com and come back and post what it tells you.

Hi Dave!

Thanks for reading through the longgg entry. I guess I'll try buying an outdoor antenna to try. Do you think a midsized one would be overdoing it, seeing how most of the stations on the other side of the building are <5 miles away?

As for the QAM tuner, I don't think my TV set has it. I bought a refurbished TV, so it's not new in the sense that it will have more features.. I'm pretty sure it only has an ASTC tuner. Will this be enough to do what you mentioned? (just using the cable and box Comcast provided for Basic Cable).

Once again, many thanks =)

Do yourself a huge favor: ignore AntennaWeb. AnteenaWeb is an evil and dumb website.

Go to TVFool.com and come back and post what it tells you.

Hi, and thanks for your input. I remember trying out this site too, but here are the results.

https://jshare.johnshopkins.edu/mhwang4/public_html/TVFool.bmp

I cut off the rest of the channels in the red and blue zone. Btw, these results are for digital only, pre-Feb. Doesnt seem to make much of a difference after Feb. For the green zone, it seems like I can get a pretty good signal strength. I put 160ft for the height as well (to accomodate for somewhere around 13 floors), and it looks like I'm way above the LOS for many of the stations. BUT, this is all under the assumption that my windows face the broadcasting stations, which I do not. If only all those stations were between 90degree to 180degrees.. :( So, what do you think?

Hi, and thanks for your input. I remember trying out this site too, but here are the results.

I know multipath can be a big issue in these situations, but you are in one sweet spot.

Tell ya the truth:

Buy the cheapest indoor antenna you can find and work your way up from there. Keep your receipts.

At the height you are at and the distance, you would have to have major nearby multipath issues. Is that possible? Yup. But, for the price of a couple easily returned indoor antennas, why not at least find out.

I know that all sounds like horribly useless advice, but the truth is you're in a spot where I'd be more worried about overloading issues with too much antenna than I would anything else.

I have a friend down in DC area who lives in a similar spot, on the wrong side of the bldg, only at a much lower floor. He was worried about reception, and what was funny was if we parked the TV next to the window, it was getting signal on two channels without an antenna attached at all.

I know multipath can be a big issue in these situations, but you are in one sweet spot.

Tell ya the truth:

Buy the cheapest indoor antenna you can find and work your way up from there. Keep your receipts.

At the height you are at and the distance, you would have to have major nearby multipath issues. Is that possible? Yup. But, for the price of a couple easily returned indoor antennas, why not at least find out.

I know that all sounds like horribly useless advice, but the truth is you're in a spot where I'd be more worried about overloading issues with too much antenna than I would anything else.

I have a friend down in DC area who lives in a similar spot, on the wrong side of the bldg, only at a much lower floor. He was worried about reception, and what was funny was if we parked the TV next to the window, it was getting signal on two channels without an antenna attached at all.

Interesting.. I didn't think I might have to worry about a signal overload in my position. I'll try getting an antenna and let you know how it went. Any suggestions for an antenna I could start with in my situation?

Thanks.

I just moved to Pittsburgh (address is 5701 Centre Avenue, Pittsburgh, PA 15206), and live on the 13th floor (total of 16 floors). The apartment building is the tallest in this area btw, especially on the 13th floor where I don't have any obstacles from my window view.

Speaking from personal experience, I was able to pick up all of the digital stations with the exception of WTAE with a plain whip antenna just down Centre Avenue from you at UPMC Shadyside. That was on the main floor at street level.

Should I get a UHF/VFH combo antenna?

WQED will move back to 13 and WPCW will be taking over 11 once WPXI moves, then farther out, WTOV Steubenville and WWCP Johnstown will be going back to 9 and 8 respectively.

Interesting.. I didn't think I might have to worry about a signal overload in my position. I'll try getting an antenna and let you know how it went. Any suggestions for an antenna I could start with in my situation?

Thanks.

First, let me offer that "overload" sounds about a thousand times worse than it actually is. It really just means the TV can't pick anything up.

As for suggests, I'd go for a basic rabbit ears + loop antenna. Something like this one...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00008V6JQ?smid=A2SMIOPIX6968Y&tag=yahoo-ce-20&linkCode=asn

The big thing to look for is the loop or dish in the middle, because you're going to need UHF. Also, be wary of any that say they are amplified or powered, because that's not what you need in your situation.

For the most part, you're trying to to buy the least antenna possible, because your situation simply doesn't require it. I would think with your line of sight and the high floor, you stand a pretty good chance of getting most of the channels you want.

The one exception is WTAE. Why? Because not even God can pick up WTAE. For lack of better explanation, they suck and have always sucked.

Speaking from personal experience, I was able to pick up all of the digital stations with the exception of WTAE with a plain whip antenna just down Centre Avenue from you at UPMC Shadyside. That was on the main floor at street level.

Oh, whew, that gives me a lot of hope :D

I hope that you were also facing South at UPMC Shadyside like me without a direct line of sight to the towers up north and northwest, because that means I'll definitely be able to get DT channels.

Thank you JK77. I'll let you know how this all turns out once I get my TV. counting down..

The one exception is WTAE. Why? Because not even God can pick up WTAE. For lack of better explanation, they suck and have always sucked.

lol. guess my gf will have to do without her grey's anatomy and desp. housewives.

so, just to clarify, you're saying that a more basic, no frills, antenna should be good enough for my place, even with my balcony windows facing the opposite side of most of the broadcasting towers?

thank you for your advice. seriously.

In the North Hills, I can pull in even Fox 8 Johnstown 51 miles away with a simple indoor antenna (10 year old Radio Shack amplified indoor antenna.)

WTAE is PITA though. I think they have the tower running on a pair of 12 volt batteries.

I havethis (http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Amplified-High-Definition-Antenna-Reception/dp/B0007MXZB2/ref=dp_cp_ob_e_title_1) antenna and it's good. Don't buy it if the cheapest one works though.

BUT I just realized that all the stations I wanna pick up are UHF (with the exception of 13.1) and I've got the rabbit ears of the above antenna out, and pointing all over the place.

I guess I'm still under the impression that VHF = 2-12 and UHF = 13+

so, just to clarify, you're saying that a more basic, no frills, antenna should be good enough for my place, even with my balcony windows facing the opposite side of most of the broadcasting towers?

Is it 100% sure? Nope. Weird things can happen to signals in any conditions. Truth be told, you might even be the lucky duck who can pick up WTAE.

I would start with a very basic antenna. Almost all of the newer rabbit ears antennas have the little loop for picking up UHF (a lot of older ones didn't).

If you don't get all the channels you want, take the antenna and walk around the space a bit until you find a spot that does.

If that antenna does work, there are other ones like Terk from z-vap's Amazon link or even a Silver Sensor. From there you can go up to something like a bowtie antenna such as a CM 4220.

The nice thing is that you're talking about TV antennas that you can find in any store in America, plop on a table or a window sill and return to the store if they don't work. If I were in your situation, I'd probably just go to some store like Big Lots and buy the cheapest thing they had and try it.

Try what I have to do at 60mi away... Big ol CM 4228 + pre-amp + mast + rotator + proper grounding equipment. I look like I'm a listening post for the CIA.

The one exception is WTAE. Why? Because not even God can pick up WTAE. For lack of better explanation, they suck and have always sucked.

MeowMeow...may I make one suggestion? I think you all realize that you have the attention of WTAE's Engineering (at a pretty high level) in this forum. Don't you think you'd get better explanations about their digital signals and their future plans if you didn't go straight to "they suck and have always sucked"?

If I were in Dave's seat, I'd not want to participate in a forum that simply wanted to criticize. Why not temper this with intellegent questions or even suggestions? Heck...WTAE wants to reach as many people as they can!

We know that WTAE's antenna is in a location that is away from the others here in this market. What we don't know are WTAE's plans to make their signal better. Perhaps this is something that someone in the forum may care to address.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

MeowMeow...may I make one suggestion? I think you all realize that you have the attention of WTAE's Engineering (at a pretty high level) in this forum. Don't you think you'd get better explanations about their digital signals and their future plans if you didn't go straight to "they suck and have always sucked"?

I may have been a bit glib about it. I am hardly the first when it comes to WTAE. There are many who would second the sentiment.

As for better explanations, they're more than welcome to explain. But, they're also largely absent. Take a look in the FCC files for WTAE: they haven't had a meaningful filing on anything regarding their DTV transmitter since 2002.

There is a threshold where we cross from being understanding to just enabling. For example, Pirates fans who still attend games in large numbers.

WTAE has shown zero evidence that they care about their coverage area. I'm actually amazed that given the rather visibile reduction in area that the FCC didn't call them out. There is not so much as a maximization application on file with the FCC -- and WTAE is not even close to reproducing its coverage map. They've easily shaved off five miles at the fringe.

At what point do they deserve to be criticized?

--- ADDED ---

I should add, too, that as I've thought about this I wonder if the sense that WTAE sucks has been in place for so long that viewers don't even bother to address it. It occurs to me that at some point I've emailed about half the stations in Pittsburgh and Johnstown/Altoona, and I've never even cared to email WTAE.

From a PR standpoint, you're on pretty disastrous ground when the public doesn't even bother to heckle you any more for missing their expectations.

Is it 100% sure? Nope. Weird things can happen to signals in any conditions. Truth be told, you might even be the lucky duck who can pick up WTAE.

I would start with a very basic antenna. Almost all of the newer rabbit ears antennas have the little loop for picking up UHF (a lot of older ones didn't).

If you don't get all the channels you want, take the antenna and walk around the space a bit until you find a spot that does.

If that antenna does work, there are other ones like Terk from z-vap's Amazon link or even a Silver Sensor. From there you can go up to something like a bowtie antenna such as a CM 4220.

The nice thing is that you're talking about TV antennas that you can find in any store in America, plop on a table or a window sill and return to the store if they don't work. If I were in your situation, I'd probably just go to some store like Big Lots and buy the cheapest thing they had and try it.

Try what I have to do at 60mi away... Big ol CM 4228 + pre-amp + mast + rotator + proper grounding equipment. I look like I'm a listening post for the CIA.

Thanks MeowMeow! I won't hold you accountable if it doesn't work, but I'll definitely hold you accountable if it DOES work ;)

I'll let you know how it goes.

I may have been a bit glib about it. I am hardly the first when it comes to WTAE. There are many who would second the sentiment.

Hey Meow...now this is what I'm talking about! Good job. You moved away from the glib to specific questions that Dave can address informally through this forum if he chooses to.

Nobody can (or would want to) respond to a "they suck" comment...

It's good to see your questions, your comments and your frustrations written down. You may be surprised at the response you get.

Dave

It's good to see your questions, your comments and your frustrations written down. You may be surprised at the response you get.

You do this stuff for a living. What can we really say or ask that's going to change WTAE's situation?

I live 60 mi NE of their transmitter. Their polar plot favors me receiving the max ERP. There are only two things, in my direction, that WTAE can do to improve their coverage: raise their transmitter and/or boost their signal. You might be able add changing channel, but I'm not a big fan of that plan.

What kinda bothers me right now is that the FCC seems like they're in a fairly forgiving mood toward maximization efforts as long as they are reasonable. Cripes, they let WQED double it's post-transition signal! I wouldn't be shocked under the circumstances if the FCC granted WTAE a boost of 200 or 300 kw simply to get them closer to their analog coverage area.

Are there other ideas I'm missing?

WTAE-DT is operating at 1000 kW and that is the FCC's power limit. One station in Columbus is testing this (has asked for 1700 kW) but that application remains pending.

A boost from 1000 kW to 2000 kW would only increase your signal by 3 dB, so unless you're right on the fringe of receiving WTAE-DT, it wouldn't help very much. What WTAE-DT needs is more height. A lower channel number wouldn't hurt either, but height is really the solution here.

- Trip

What can we really say or ask that's going to change WTAE's situation? Are there other ideas I'm missing?

Maybe you're missing my point. All I'm saying is that:

1. WTAE Engineering pays attention to these posts.
2. Glib comments will be ignored.
3. Constructive criticism is always appreciated, especially by technical people.
4. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Dave K's a pretty reasonable guy and he's alway open to suggestions. If his answer isn't what you were hoping to hear, he will give you a reasoned explanation for why things are the way they are.

I'm just sayin'...

Dave

A boost from 1000 kW to 2000 kW would only increase your signal by 3 dB, so unless you're right on the fringe of receiving WTAE-DT, it wouldn't help very much. What WTAE-DT needs is more height. A lower channel number wouldn't hurt either, but height is really the solution here.

I'm about six or seven miles outside the circle on their DT coverage map. I'm right within the circle on their old analog map. Most of Pittsburgh DMA coverage maps reproduce their coverage this far out reasonably well.

Is WTAE's transmitter really in THAT bad of a spot? I know no one, in the city, at the fringe or near fringe, west, north, east that can pick WTAE up OTA. No one seems to pick that channel up.

WTAE-DT is the only channel I'm worried about as the deadline nears.

A lower channel might help, but the decent VHFs are all occupied post-transition. WDTV going to 5; WTRF 7; WWCP 8; WTOV 9; WOIO 10; WPCW 11; WICU 12; WQED 13. No one, it seems, wants channel 6 for DTV, which is understandable.

So, the only viable options look like: raise the transmitter or relocate the transmitter.

I don't know what the viability of a lower UHF channel option would be. In my experience, at the fringe, it helps. For example, KDKA on 25 is easy to receive anywhere out here. WPGH 43 is fairly easy. WPXI 48 takes some effort. WTAE 51 isn't possible to receive except on tropo days.

I hope that you were also facing South at UPMC Shadyside like me without a direct line of sight to the towers up north and northwest, because that means I'll definitely be able to get DT channels.

I was in the Family Surgical Waiting Room which faces southwest, and could see the QED candelabra out the window. Even in the middle of the room, I was able to pick up stations.

The one exception is WTAE. Why? Because not even God can pick up WTAE. For lack of better explanation, they suck and have always sucked.

I can pick up WTAE-DT without any problems. Now if you ask me who "sucks," I would answer WJAC.

Originally Posted by MeowMeow View Post
The one exception is WTAE. Why? Because not even God can pick up WTAE. For lack of better explanation, they suck and have always sucked.

I can pick up WTAE-DT without any problems. Now if you ask me who "sucks," I would answer WJAC.

And I'm in suburban Johnstown and have no problem getting WTAE, but WPXI, KDKA, and WPGH are hit and miss. Oh, and WWCP, not so much, and I'm less than 20 miles from their transmitter, but have a small hill, several houses and a stand of tall pine trees blocking my LOS. Location, location, location.
Dave's point is well taken. He has taken a hit or two along the way in this forum and elsewhere, but he remains a valuable source of information. We owe it to these professionals, and to ourselves to remain civil in our discussions.

The point is taken on the matter of civility. It was a bit glib. I apologize.

I can pick up WTAE-DT without any problems. Now if you ask me who "sucks," I would answer WJAC.

In fairness, WJAC's non-reception near Pittsburgh is for a clear reason: their DTV transmitter pattern is not close to optimal for points west.

To the extent that it means anything, I do think a stronger pushback on coverage in areas like western PA is needed. That needs to go from the viewers to the stations and from the stations to the FCC.

DTV coverage in western PA does not meet the purported standard the FCC constantly expresses. It's not even close. And in the case of a station like WTAE, the FCC should have done more to put into action everything it claims about reproducing coverage areas.

As to WWCP, in their defense they are going back to VHF 8 in Feb. So, we'll see what the final coverage map for WWCP looks like.

On the bigger issue, my worry is that the applications aren't sitting there in the FCC files. It doesn't bode well for any future improvements if the applications aren't in the pipeline.

I'm about six or seven miles outside the circle on their DT coverage map. I'm right within the circle on their old analog map. Most of Pittsburgh DMA coverage maps reproduce their coverage this far out reasonably well.

Is WTAE's transmitter really in THAT bad of a spot? I know no one, in the city, at the fringe or near fringe, west, north, east that can pick WTAE up OTA. No one seems to pick that channel up.

WTAE-DT is the only channel I'm worried about as the deadline nears.

A lower channel might help, but the decent VHFs are all occupied post-transition. WDTV going to 5; WTRF 7; WWCP 8; WTOV 9; WOIO 10; WPCW 11; WICU 12; WQED 13. No one, it seems, wants channel 6 for DTV, which is understandable.

So, the only viable options look like: raise the transmitter or relocate the transmitter.

I don't know what the viability of a lower UHF channel option would be. In my experience, at the fringe, it helps. For example, KDKA on 25 is easy to receive anywhere out here. WPGH 43 is fairly easy. WPXI 48 takes some effort. WTAE 51 isn't possible to receive except on tropo days.

Yes our transmitter really is in that bad of a spot. With viewer subscriptions at 93% for cable and satellite in Western PA it's impossible to justify spending millions of dollars to improve the signal by building an all new transmit facility farther north with better elevation. There's no conceivable way to quantify any reasonable improvement to a business bottom line.

I observe how often people take a self righteous attitude in these forums about a broadcaster and remain blissfully ignorant of completely legitimate business concerns that apply to any company's economics. Many simply demand that they're entitled to something free without a second thought that only broadcasters even try to give you something free. It's easy to spend the other guy's money. If it was your money that had to get spent for a better transmitter site you wouldn't do it either, and for very good reason.

We are looking at repeaters for better coverage in under-served areas with significant population. We'll try the first in Squirrel Hill/Oakland/Lawrenceville next Summer. Depending on the success of that venture we may do more. But if you look at an area like Sewickley, every station in town would have to put in a repeater for those folks to get OTA consistently.

The bottom line is that Western PA will always be the land of "haves and have nots" when it comes to OTA depending on whether you live on hill top or in a valley. That is why cable and satellite penetration are so much higher here than areas with flatter terrain.

Dave Kasperek
Director of Engineering
WTAE

Yes our transmitter really is in that bad of a spot. With viewer subscriptions at 93% for cable and satellite in Western PA it's impossible to justify spending millions of dollars to improve the signal by building an all new transmit facility farther north with better elevation.

Are any other options even close to feasible? A lower channel, for example?

Are any other options even close to feasible? A lower channel, for example?

Trust me, my job is to know all the simple easy answers, and if there was one we would have jumped on it a long time ago. And think about it for a second; if we could fix the problem simply why wouldn't we???? We want you for a viewer.

We are looking at repeaters for better coverage in under-served areas with significant population. We'll try the first in Squirrel Hill/Oakland/Lawrenceville next Summer. Depending on the success of that venture we may do more. But if you look at an area like Sewickley, every station in town would have to put in a repeater for those folks to get OTA consistently.

Are you thinking on-channel repeaters or translators?

- Trip

Are you thinking on-channel repeaters or translators?

- Trip

Digital translator to an unused channel would be first choice, but this will be somewhat dependent on FCC rulemaking yet to occur. We are hopeful.

Dave

In fairness, WJAC's non-reception near Pittsburgh is for a clear reason: their DTV transmitter pattern is not close to optimal for points west.

Situations such as that throws a monkey wrench into the argument that digital TV replicates or exceedes analog coverage, which may or may not change after February.

My opinion was more on their customer service. I send an e-mail asking about their coverage, and get no reply. Second e-mail gets a reply asking for my address, but then nothing. I guess third time might have been the charm.

Situations such as that throws a monkey wrench into the argument that digital TV replicates or exceedes analog coverage, which may or may not change after February.

My opinion was more on their customer service. I send an e-mail asking about their coverage, and get no reply. Second e-mail gets a reply asking for my address, but then nothing. I guess third time might have been the charm.

I think there's lessons yet to be learned about DTV coverage. For example all the experience we have to date is with analog transmit antennas still broadcasting simultaneously. That's a lot of RF to eliminate from potential interference. We might see an improvement when all the full power analogs go off the air.

If we don't answer every email, I can only say we try to.

Hi Dave!

Thanks for reading through the longgg entry. I guess I'll try buying an outdoor antenna to try. Do you think a midsized one would be overdoing it, seeing how most of the stations on the other side of the building are <5 miles away?

As for the QAM tuner, I don't think my TV set has it. I bought a refurbished TV, so it's not new in the sense that it will have more features.. I'm pretty sure it only has an ASTC tuner. Will this be enough to do what you mentioned? (just using the cable and box Comcast provided for Basic Cable). =)

I would start with a small UHF indoor antenna and no amplifier. Be willing to experiment with a lot of crazy angles. You just cant believe how sometimes a very simple change of angle would make a difference from no reception to good reception. I would be concerned however if you don't have an up to date tuner. The 5th generation chipset in even the cheapest DTV converter boxes for sale now, will outperform a very expensive older ATSC tuner. Also, as I mentioned, a QAM tuner in a new set makes basic cable into a bargain for DTV reception.
Dave

Did WPGH disappear on anyone else tonight? I usually have a 70-75% signal but all of the sudden tonight when I try to watch Seinfeld at 7:30 nothing but a big donut signal wise. Just tried again and still nothing, odd.

I also noticed that WPMY's signal went from the 90's to the 20's.

If we don't answer every email, I can only say we try to.

As I mentioned, I don't have any problems receiving WTAE. The e-mail I was referring to was sent to WJAC.

Did WPGH disappear on anyone else tonight?

I didn't notice any drop-outs between 9 and 10.

As I mentioned, I don't have any problems receiving WTAE. The e-mail I was referring to was sent to WJAC.
10-4, my mistake in reading the message - Dave

Hi, Dave, I have a question for you.

Why did WPXI build an all new studio to go high definition (I heard set design is actually very important from HD/SD camera framing), but you guys are gonna stay put (you are, right)?

Is everything in your studio HD-ready now? Do you need to upgrade to newer HD studio cameras? I have to be honest, but the Sony HDC1500L cams that WPXI use look stunning.

Did you hire anyone for consulting (like AZCAR)?

Thanks, Dave.

OK several questions and comments there, I'll reply in order.

Why did WPXI build an all new studio to go high definition
I worked there a long time so I am very familiar with WPXI's situation which is unlike WTAE's. There were multiple reasons to build a new facility. The original WPXI studio building was landlocked on a hilltop in a residential neighborhood so they could not expand easily nor rebuild on the same site. The whole building was in need of general updating and renovations. Simultaneously they had a desire to radically alter the studio on-air appearance to include their newsroom in the background of the main news studio which would have been almost impossible. Add to that the need for a massive technical infrastructure upgrade for HDTV and you can make the case it might just as good to start over with an all new facililty than investing a lot in the one you own. So they didn't build a whole new building just to go HD, and few stations will do that if they don't need to.

All the above of course is my own personal opinion and I state it only because you asked what I thought. Dave Morrison or someone else at WPXI might have a slightly different take on this than mine.

(I heard set design is actually very important from HD/SD camera framing), You are fundamentally correct but it's as much about aspect ratio as lines of resolution. Set design is critical to pleasing 16x9 camera framing compared to 4x3. Using 3D modeling techniques a good set design company can create a set that works both ways. WTAE's new set launched last year was designed to be able to work with both aspect ratios.

but you guys are gonna stay put (you are, right)?
Correct. Our building is sound, and we're not too cramped for space so it would be difficult to justify an all new facility in our case.

Is everything in your studio HD-ready now?
Yes, as everyone will soon see.;)
Do you need to upgrade to newer HD studio cameras?
Done.
I have to be honest, but the Sony HDC1500L cams that WPXI use look stunning.
Agreed. In the year that's elapsed since WPXI went on, Sony introduced the 1400. Having the same imager and CCU, it produces the same image at 1080i as a 1500 at lower cost so we got 6. (yes I said 1080i, has anyone checked PSIP on WTAE lately?)

Did you hire anyone for consulting (like AZCAR)?
We used Beck Associates.

Thanks for your replies, Dave.

Dave:

Thanks for taking the time to reply to some of the WTAE questions in the thread.

Also, I saw the 11PM newscast last night. I'm not sure when your first HD one was, but I remembered your posts and decided to go see if it was "soon" already. Everything looked great. And I did confirm that the WTAE news was in 1080i last night. I didn't check at any other time to see if the station has switched to 1080i in general, or just for the news.

Just wanted to let you know that some viewers appreciate the work.

-justin

Dave:

Thanks for taking the time to reply to some of the WTAE questions in the thread.

Also, I saw the 11PM newscast last night. I'm not sure when your first HD one was, but I remembered your posts and decided to go see if it was "soon" already. Everything looked great. And I did confirm that the WTAE news was in 1080i last night. I didn't check at any other time to see if the station has switched to 1080i in general, or just for the news.

Just wanted to let you know that some viewers appreciate the work.

-justin

Thanks for taking a look, glad you liked what you saw. We went 1080i full time about 2 weeks ago. HD news started at noon yesterday.

Dave

I got a question for dmorrison since it's WPXI related.

I've been watching "Chuck" the last two Saturdays on reruns to refresh myself for the new season and both times it's been SD instead of HD. Is this a network issue or is the switch not happening on WPXI's end? I will note that the one that aired on the 6th switched to HD for like the last 10 minutes of the show.

Before the WTAE conversation dies completely, I thought this link (http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6596515.html) was of interest from the Official final DTV table thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14675448#post14675448):

Martin told the committee that since it was the FCC's goal for viewers not to lose access to signals they had historically watched, it was working on ways to fix the problem, including perhaps an antenna to reach those areas where historic out-of-market carriage was lost due to changes in the contour of the digital signal.

Now, whether they might back this talk up with cash to help stations out is probably the big, big question.

One of the lessons from the Wilmington, N.C., early analog shutoff was the number of out-of-market viewers of NBC affiliate WECT-TV there that lost the signal.

I thought this was very interesting, that the FCC was at least paying attention to the issue of out-of-market viewers. It hasn't struck me as a top priority for the FCC.

Thanks for taking a look, glad you liked what you saw. We went 1080i full time about 2 weeks ago. HD news started at noon yesterday.

Dave

Now, wait a minute...have you guys always been passing a 1080i signal, even though ABC has been at 720p, or am I reading that wrong?

Are you broadcasting in 720p60 (typical of ABC networks) or 1080i60? That Sony studio camera can shoot in both modes.

Why would you choose 1080i60 if your HD is typically 720p60?

(yes I said 1080i, has anyone checked PSIP on WTAE lately?)

My Samsung DTB-H260F is displaying "1080i" on WTAE-DT.

I just caught the new HD newscast at 5 this evening. Nice work, Dave.

Congratulations to everyone at WTAE for all their hard work!
I'm loving this morning's HD newscast.

I've been watching "Chuck" the last two Saturdays on reruns to refresh myself for the new season and both times it's been SD instead of HD.

Bull...don't know the answer to that. If you want me to, I can look a little deeper into this. Either that, or you can let me know if NBC has their act together for next week.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

We went 1080i full time about 2 weeks ago.


Dave...The more I learn, the less I understand!

It seemed to me that network affiliates traditionally chose their formats based upon what their networks have chosen. I assume that WTAE chose 720p based upon the fact that ABC was 720p. So here's what I am wondering...

- Do you anticipate ABC switching from 720p to 1080i?
- How well is your encoder "translating" 720p network feeds to 1080i? (You probably see little or no difference.) Since 1080i has twice as many pixels while 720p has twice as many frames, I wonder where in the encoding scheme you gain or lose.
- If you are able to answer, what benefits did you see in switching formats?

Just curious...

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

Bull...don't know the answer to that. If you want me to, I can look a little deeper into this. Either that, or you can let me know if NBC has their act together for next week.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

Don't go out of your way, I was wondering if you just knew. I suspect it's NBC because the WPXI news promos were in HD.

On a somewhat related note though, what are WPXI's capabilities concerning syndication in HD? One of the reasons why I ask is because of the Star Trek remastered episodes that are shown late Sunday night/early Monday morning. They look great, better than TOS has ever looked, but I can tell that they are just upconverted SD rather than a real HD feed. I know they (CBS) talked about the issue early on when the episodes first came out that the equipment for syndication in HD just wasn't there but that was two years ago now. I know some other things in syndication have started being shown in HD like wheel of fortune, so I was wondering if that hurdle was mostly past now.

I know some other things in syndication have started being shown in HD like wheel of fortune, so I was wondering if that hurdle was mostly past now.

Good questions, Bull...

First, I can tell you that the Star Trek episodes that you are referring to are not available in HD. It would be very difficult to the distributor to "make something out of nothing" if you get my drift.

Secondly, many of the hurdles we faced for HD syndicated programming have passed...but there are still some that we're dealing with.

For example, I struggle with the HD versions of Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy. CBS Syndication sends us a feed with a smorgasbord of audio formats, only one of which we can use. Many HD satellite receivers default to the first of many audio PIDs (a PID is a packet ID), and in our case we cannot use the first PID. For us, this means that when the signal is acquired by our receiver, we have 30 seconds during the slate to change the audio PIDs before the feed starts. Most of the time we make it. Additionally, CBS Syndication does NOT send re-feeds on these two HD programs...so if we miss the feed or foul up the audio, you will see the SD version on-the-air.

We also have closed captioning issues from time to time. As a matter of fact, one of our syndicators just sent down an HD show (it comes down day-of-air) with the closed captioning missing. In order to comply with FCC rules, we aired the SD version which had closed captioning.

As I said above, many of the bugs have been worked out. But as I said in an earlier post, the more I learn the stupider I get. The way I figure it, once I figure out all of the quirks, our syndicators will introduce new ones just to keep me on my toes!

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

First, I can tell you that the Star Trek episodes that you are referring to are not available in HD. It would be very difficult to the distributor to "make something out of nothing" if you get my drift.

Ah, but they are. That was the point of the whole remastered project. They went back to the original 35mm negatives, rescanned them all with a new HD master, then redid all the effects works in CGI so they match the clarity of the live action 35mm prints. The first season is even available on HD-DVD and by all accounts look stunning. They are also available on the Xbox Live marketplace. So, real honest to goodness HD versions of these episodes exist, I just didn't know if CBS was distributing them in syndication yet or not. Early on in the project, CBS stated that few to zero markets will be seeing them aired in HD due to the state of HD syndication distribution. Since other syndicated things have started showing up in HD, I was wondering if that was going to follow.

It's just like I wonder how long it's going to take for WPGH to get copies/rights to Seinfield to show in HD since Sony has announced that the entire series has been remastered in HD now (and is currently airing without stretchovision on TBS-HD.)

Thanks for the rest of the info though, very informative.

Ah, but they are. That was the point of the whole remastered project.

Hmmm...well, they're not made available to us. If that changes, I'll let you know.

Dave

- How well is your encoder "translating" 720p network feeds to 1080i? (You probably see little or no difference.) Since 1080i has twice as many pixels while 720p has twice as many frames, I wonder where in the encoding scheme you gain or lose.
Keep in mind that "double frames" thing only makes a difference when the programming is shot in native 720p. (Not just delivered in 720p from the network feed.)

Last time I checked, no scripted shows were being shot at 60fps. Most were being shot on film at 24fps. For some reason dramas are shot on film but 1/2 hour shows are likely to be at captured digitally at 30fps. Live events are the most likely to be at 60fps. I'm unsure if 720p stations typically do local news at 60fps though. It is possible (and economical) to capture at 30fps and then double the frames on playback.

Edit:

The pertinence of this is that 1080i is better than 720p when displaying content originally shot at 24fps. At least resolution wise. This is where it gets complicated...

Some people are unfortunately perceptive to temporal distortion of the playback rate of those original 24 frames per second. 60fps allows those original 24 fames to be delivered to the screen at closer to the original moment in time when they were intended to appear. 1080i broadcasts of 24fps content are normally made by going from 24fps to 30fps and then perfectly creating two sequential fields from each of those frames. This results in different trade-offs than the interlacing associated with 480i. For 1080i of originally 24fps content, the interlacing provides no more temporal detail. 480i interlacing does.

To make things even more complicated, 720p can be generated in two ways from 24fps content. Either going straight from 24fps to 60fps (more accurate temporal mapping). Or going from 24fps to 30fps and then showing each frame twice.

My preference: 1080i for 24fps content. New displays are capable of extracting that original 24fps by dropping the soft telecined frames. This is great for people with 72hz or 120hz TVs capable of 24fps playback. They can watch the programming in 1080p at 24fps, the best possible delivery of filmed content under today's technology, even though it is being delivered as 1080i at 30fps.

Does the above sound like it is still an accurate characterization of the state of TV frames per second?

(sorry, advil not included with this post) ;)

Been a long while since I've logged in & I find the last few pages of entries interesting...thought WTAE would come in here in the Ligonier area, the analog signal was always one of our best, but since we went digital last fall...I've forgotten they are even on the air. I'm so grateful for the rebroadcast of ABC 23 on 8.2. I live just a mile or two from the tower. Comes in with a paper clip antenna.

Regarding subchannel programming, can anyone tell me if they know if any consideration has ever been given of airing network-owned cable channels as OTA subs? The networks could potentially make a big dent in cable business (and eliminate a ton of competition) if the top cable channels - which I think are generally owned by the same media companies that own the big networks - were offered ota. My picks would be CNBC and MSNBC...similar. ABC could air ESPN.

We used to be very big RTN viewers, as an OTA household, the previous lineup was a godsend. Not watching it so much anymore as the new package is less interesting to us - Magnum at 9, great, though. We'll probably watch it all winter!

Finally, has anyone tried to build their own dual bay gray-hoverman (DBGH) antenna? I'm toying around with trying it.

Many HD satellite receivers default to the first of many audio PIDs (a PID is a packet ID), and in our case we cannot use the first PID.

Speaking of audio PIDs, I hear that the new DVB-S2 NBC mux is a real bear which explains some of the multichannel audio issues.

I hate to bring this up, Dave, but Latrobe has been gone from the WX+ rotation for awhile now. It had popped back in for awhile in June, IIRC, and figured it might return.

Regarding subchannel programming, can anyone tell me if they know if any consideration has ever been given of airing network-owned cable channels as OTA subs? The networks could potentially make a big dent in cable business (and eliminate a ton of competition) if the top cable channels - which I think are generally owned by the same media companies that own the big networks - were offered ota. My picks would be CNBC and MSNBC...similar. ABC could air ESPN.

Next to nil on that happening. They don't want to eliminate cable and DBS companies since NBC Universal, Disney, Viacom, etc. charge for carriage of their channels which the subscribers pay for in return. ESPN is the most expensive basic cable channel, asking over $1/subscriber.

Regarding subchannel programming, can anyone tell me if they know if any consideration has ever been given of airing network-owned cable channels as OTA subs? The networks could potentially make a big dent in cable business (and eliminate a ton of competition) if the top cable channels - which I think are generally owned by the same media companies that own the big networks - were offered ota. My picks would be CNBC and MSNBC...similar. ABC could air ESPN.

The only thing even close is Universal Sports, which NBC channels are carrying as a sub in only a couple markets. I guess the O&Os have to carry it. There's some discussion of this, I believe, in the DC thread where they have a Universal Sports sub.

.2 Network is in the pipeline, supposedly, to rollout a movie channel. But, so far .2 Network looks like the DTV equivalent of vaporware. KHOU in Houston is supposed to be one of their first affiliates come December, so it won't be long before we see whether .2 is something worth watching.

Now, wait a minute...have you guys always been passing a 1080i signal, even though ABC has been at 720p, or am I reading that wrong?

From original launch way back in 1999 until about 2 weeks ago we broadcast 720P exclusively. We recently changed to 1080i.

Are you broadcasting in 720p60 (typical of ABC networks) or 1080i60? That Sony studio camera can shoot in both modes.

Why would you choose 1080i60 if your HD is typically 720p60?

Our HD is no longer typically 720P anymore. We transcode ABC HD feeds to 1080i. Tell me you see any difference whatsoever in the video resolution of ABC programming on our channel. Cameras are not the only issue. You have switchers, distribution equipment and graphics generators. The vast majority of these are geared to 1080i, and all syndicated programming (non-ABC) seems to be overwhelmingly 1080i. It's like betamax vs vhs. Either might have some technical advantage but the world's acceptance of one over the other makes the point moot.

Dave...The more I learn, the less I understand!

It seemed to me that network affiliates traditionally chose their formats based upon what their networks have chosen. I assume that WTAE chose 720p based upon the fact that ABC was 720p. So here's what I am wondering...

- Do you anticipate ABC switching from 720p to 1080i?
- How well is your encoder "translating" 720p network feeds to 1080i? (You probably see little or no difference.) Since 1080i has twice as many pixels while 720p has twice as many frames, I wonder where in the encoding scheme you gain or lose.
- If you are able to answer, what benefits did you see in switching formats?

Just curious...

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

No idea whether ABC will switch if ever. The transcoder works amazingly well, we see no difference.. Theoretically 720P has an advantage in encoding, particularly if we were to try what you guys do now with 3 channels in a 19.39 MBps stream, but as I explained above to ChuckZ there are a lot of other practical considerations. Main benefit is we are more like the rest of the world when it comes to buying equipment or hd programs. And I suppose in the marketing world "more is better" when it comes to lines of resolution.

Good questions, Bull...

First, I can tell you that the Star Trek episodes that you are referring to are not available in HD. It would be very difficult to the distributor to "make something out of nothing" if you get my drift.

Secondly, many of the hurdles we faced for HD syndicated programming have passed...but there are still some that we're dealing with.

For example, I struggle with the HD versions of Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy. CBS Syndication sends us a feed with a smorgasbord of audio formats, only one of which we can use. Many HD satellite receivers default to the first of many audio PIDs (a PID is a packet ID), and in our case we cannot use the first PID. For us, this means that when the signal is acquired by our receiver, we have 30 seconds during the slate to change the audio PIDs before the feed starts. Most of the time we make it. Additionally, CBS Syndication does NOT send re-feeds on these two HD programs...so if we miss the feed or foul up the audio, you will see the SD version on-the-air.

We also have closed captioning issues from time to time. As a matter of fact, one of our syndicators just sent down an HD show (it comes down day-of-air) with the closed captioning missing. In order to comply with FCC rules, we aired the SD version which had closed captioning.

As I said above, many of the bugs have been worked out. But as I said in an earlier post, the more I learn the stupider I get. The way I figure it, once I figure out all of the quirks, our syndicators will introduce new ones just to keep me on my toes!

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

We have only been doing local HD news for a few days now, and I've already decided making HDTV is like playing "Whack-a-mole" in that for every problem you solve, two more pop up....!

Keep in mind that "double frames" thing only makes a difference when the programming is shot in native 720p. (Not just delivered in 720p from the network feed.)

Last time I checked, no scripted shows were being shot at 60fps. Most were being shot on film at 24fps. For some reason dramas are shot on film but 1/2 hour shows are likely to be at captured digitally at 30fps. Live events are the most likely to be at 60fps. I'm unsure if 720p stations typically do local news at 60fps though. It is possible (and economical) to capture at 30fps and then double the frames on playback.

Edit:

The pertinence of this is that 1080i is better than 720p when displaying content originally shot at 24fps. At least resolution wise. This is where it gets complicated...

Some people are unfortunately perceptive to temporal distortion of the playback rate of those original 24 frames per second. 60fps allows those original 24 fames to be delivered to the screen at closer to the original moment in time when they were intended to appear. 1080i broadcasts of 24fps content are normally made by going from 24fps to 30fps and then perfectly creating two sequential fields from each of those frames. This results in different trade-offs than the interlacing associated with 480i. For 1080i of originally 24fps content, the interlacing provides no more temporal detail. 480i interlacing does.

To make things even more complicated, 720p can be generated in two ways from 24fps content. Either going straight from 24fps to 60fps (more accurate temporal mapping). Or going from 24fps to 30fps and then showing each frame twice.

My preference: 1080i for 24fps content. New displays are capable of extracting that original 24fps by dropping the soft telecined frames. This is great for people with 72hz or 120hz TVs capable of 24fps playback. They can watch the programming in 1080p at 24fps, the best possible delivery of filmed content under today's technology, even though it is being delivered as 1080i at 30fps.

Does the above sound like it is still an accurate characterization of the state of TV frames per second?

(sorry, advil not included with this post) ;)

I wouldn't disagree with your opinion, but for most viewers these would be extremely esoteric concerns that few could verbalize, let alone perceive, if "America's Funniest Home Videos" is any example of what folks actually watch... Hence from a business and engineering perspective this isn't something that keeps us awake at night worrying about. No Advil required.;)

Been a long while since I've logged in & I find the last few pages of entries interesting...thought WTAE would come in here in the Ligonier area, the analog signal was always one of our best, but since we went digital last fall...I've forgotten they are even on the air. I'm so grateful for the rebroadcast of ABC 23 on 8.2. I live just a mile or two from the tower. Comes in with a paper clip antenna.

Regarding subchannel programming, can anyone tell me if they know if any consideration has ever been given of airing network-owned cable channels as OTA subs? The networks could potentially make a big dent in cable business (and eliminate a ton of competition) if the top cable channels - which I think are generally owned by the same media companies that own the big networks - were offered ota. My picks would be CNBC and MSNBC...similar. ABC could air ESPN.

We used to be very big RTN viewers, as an OTA household, the previous lineup was a godsend. Not watching it so much anymore as the new package is less interesting to us - Magnum at 9, great, though. We'll probably watch it all winter!

Finally, has anyone tried to build their own dual bay gray-hoverman (DBGH) antenna? I'm toying around with trying it.


Sorry you don't seem to be getting our HD signal. The pattern we had to adopt for maximum power while still protecting other licensed stations is directional and we don't send as much power in your direction digitally as we do in analog. Not sure yet if this may change sometime after the transition is over, as stations will jockey around a bit to other channels for awhile to come. When we see how things settle out, we'll know if there's any opportunity to improve coverage in your area. In the meantime it sound's like you are not inconvenienced too much by having an ABC station in your back yard.

Dave...as convenient as ABC 23 is, WTAE is still on my wish list for news, especially. As I'm sure you know, there isn't even a 6 PM newscast on ABC 23...entertainment program like inside edition or something leading into ABC World News. I figured you were directional with the digital.

I am adopting a "wait and see" approach to post-February. Due to our location, we are hit and miss on a couple channels.

Thanks for the info. Let the decision makers know that there are people "out there" who would watch if you can get the signal (& subchannel programming) to us. My parents just built a nice new house in Hempfield Twp...once I showed them all the digital OTA channels and the clarity, they decided to cancel their cable. There have to be more people who will do this once they see what's available.

Dave...as convenient as ABC 23 is, WTAE is still on my wish list for news, especially. As I'm sure you know, there isn't even a 6 PM newscast on ABC 23...entertainment program like inside edition or something leading into ABC World News. I figured you were directional with the digital.

I am adopting a "wait and see" approach to post-February. Due to our location, we are hit and miss on a couple channels.

Thanks for the info. Let the decision makers know that there are people "out there" who would watch if you can get the signal (& subchannel programming) to us. My parents just built a nice new house in Hempfield Twp...once I showed them all the digital OTA channels and the clarity, they decided to cancel their cable. There have to be more people who will do this once they see what's available.

Likewise, we'd like to get some real world experience to see if overall RF spectrum interference decreases enough to improve receivability when all the analog stations go dark. We are trying a digital translator next summer to see if it improves service to a highly populated valley in the city. This will tell us a lot.

Speaking of audio PIDs, I hear that the new DVB-S2 NBC mux is a real bear which explains some of the multichannel audio issues.

The DVB-S2 C-Band mux has been pretty straight forward. I haven't had any problems with it. The audio mix seems to be fine, but we really haven't had the need to air this feed yet. The C-Band is our backup NBC feed...we're supposed to be updating our main feeds soon. We're using a Tandberg RX-1290 to receive this feed, and this is a very cool little SD/HD IRD. I'll let you know as I learn more.

I hate to bring this up, Dave, but Latrobe has been gone from the WX+ rotation for awhile now. It had popped back in for awhile in June, IIRC, and figured it might return.

Latrobe has been out of the loop since the storms early in the week. It seems that we lost their feed. I'll see if it's back.

Dave Morrison
WPXI-Engineering

I figured you were directional with the digital.

Chestnut Ridge being in the way isn't helping either. I get eight out of ten bars on my set's signal meter on 51.

Try playing with antenna azimuth, even completely illogical angles. Sometimes I can tune in a DTV signal when pointing the antenna 180 degrees opposite where the signal comes from. I have definitely gotten bounce reception off a high rise behind my house with 5th gen tuners. It sounds like the signal is there for 51 but multipath may be killing the receiver's ability to decode. If your tuner is more than a couple years old, consider a newer tuner with 5th generation chipset.

Finally, has anyone tried to build their own dual bay gray-hoverman (DBGH) antenna? I'm toying around with trying it.I'm currently using a homebuilt gray-hoverman...
The Filer House - Week 099 - 2nd Attic Antenna (http://web.mac.com/dfiler/FilerHouse/Work-Blog/Entries/2008/5/28_Week_099_-_2nd_Attic_Antenna.html)

But the best info I know of so far on this antenna is...
Generation I Gray-Hoverman Antenna (SBGH & DBGH) - Digital Forum (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=81982)

I have two antennas...channel master on the roof (VHF / UHF) about 10 ft above roof line and a UHF only about 5 feet off the ground in the back yard. Between the two of them we get everything but WTAE out of Pittsburgh...

I am going to try the DBGH on the ground to see what I get.

Anybody in Shadyside have trouble with reception?

I am using a Hauppauge Win-TVR 950 w/ the indoor antenna it came with and I can only get 3 or 4 channels. Do the stations only broadcast at certaint imes of the day?

Anyone know why Verizon FIOS isn't showing the PSU game? Is there some sort of conflict with Comcast?

Anybody in Shadyside have trouble with reception?

I am using a Hauppauge Win-TVR 950 w/ the indoor antenna it came with and I can only get 3 or 4 channels.

Where do you have the antenna placed? If you're in an appartment building, which floor do you live on? The reason I ask is that I was able to get all but WTAE using the same equipment down at UPMC Shadyside on the first floor. The signals were better closer to the window, but even in the middle of the room, I could get the full power stations such as WPXI and KDKA.

Do the stations only broadcast at certaint imes of the day?

No, everyone is 24/7.

Anybody in Shadyside have trouble with reception?

I am using a Hauppauge Win-TVR 950 w/ the indoor antenna it came with and I can only get 3 or 4 channels. Do the stations only broadcast at certaint imes of the day?

After you have tried to move the antenna near the window as priviously suggested, and that does not help try connecting another antenna. I also have a Hauppauge 950 that I use for my laptop and the antenna that comes with it is not that great. When I connect it to my other antennas I have much better results.Did you download the free signal meter from the Hauppauge website? All in all these "Stick Tuners" can't even come close to a good convertor box like the Zenith DTT900.

No, everyone is 24/7.

Except WPCW, who will not be up until after Feb 17, 2009. I'm kinda guessing the guy isn't aware of this.

Except WPCW, who will not be up until after Feb 17, 2009. I'm kinda guessing the guy isn't aware of this.

Well yes, but since WPCW-DT doesn't currently exist, all stations are 24/7. :D

Where do you have the antenna placed? If you're in an appartment building, which floor do you live on? The reason I ask is that I was able to get all but WTAE using the same equipment down at UPMC Shadyside on the first floor. The signals were better closer to the window, but even in the middle of the room, I could get the full power stations such as WPXI and KDKA.
I am in an apartment on the 2nd floor. I have tried moving the antenna close to all my windows but I can only get 2 or 3 channels.

I am in an apartment on the 2nd floor. I have tried moving the antenna close to all my windows but I can only get 2 or 3 channels.

Digital is a much different animal than analog. Whereas analog could get into every nook and crany, digital is very finicky. Anything could be hindering your reception from the location of your apartment to the tree right outside the building.

Did someone at WPXI drop the ball...as of last night, my program guides on all my CECBs and my Insignia digital TV have shown no guide data.

Did someone at WPXI drop the ball...as of last night, my program guides on all my CECBs and my Insignia digital TV have shown no guide data.

No EPG data in the stream according to TSReader.

There has not been any program info for WPXI or their sub channels for the last few days.

Did someone at WPXI drop the ball...as of last night, my program guides on all my CECBs and my Insignia digital TV have shown no guide data.

Blame me if you want to...and thanks for the heads up.

Your EPG should be running correctly now.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

Law and Order SVU not HD last night on WPXI (as received via D*)

16/9 Widescreen SD on center of screen.

sooooooooooooo disappointing.


constant audio dropouts as well



at least Heroes was ok the other night. sigh.

After having watched WTAE news in HD for about a week, I'd give them excellent marks!

One thing left to fix though...
Traffic and helicopter camera feeds are being shown at the wrong aspect ratio. They are 4:3 content that is being stretched to 16:9.

Also, does anyone know if KDKA has announced plans for HD news?

Blame me if you want to...and thanks for the heads up.

Your EPG should be running correctly now.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

thanks for fixing it. :)

After having watched WTAE news in HD for about a week, I'd give them excellent marks!

One thing left to fix though...
Traffic and helicopter camera feeds are being shown at the wrong aspect ratio. They are 4:3 content that is being stretched to 16:9.

Also, does anyone know if KDKA has announced plans for HD news?

Honestly...does having "the news" in HD enhance your viewing enjoyment a lot? I dont have HD so I obviously dont have first hand knowledge, but it's not something I would think one would need in HD. A movie, a tv show, certainly a sports game...but the news?

All I would think it does is make the news anchors look their age. :D

Honestly...does having "the news" in HD enhance your viewing enjoyment a lot? I dont have HD so I obviously dont have first hand knowledge, but it's not something I would think one would need in HD. A movie, a tv show, certainly a sports game...but the news?

Actually, I'm more inclined to watch the 11/53 broadcasts in HD. Especially the 10 o'clock on 53, since the other 10 o'clock offerings aren't anything to rave about anyhow.

After having watched WTAE news in HD for about a week, I'd give them excellent marks!

One thing left to fix though...
Traffic and helicopter camera feeds are being shown at the wrong aspect ratio. They are 4:3 content that is being stretched to 16:9.

Also, does anyone know if KDKA has announced plans for HD news?

Other than a general announcement that all CBS O&Os will eventually have local HD news, and something recently by Rob Owens in the PG that it will likely be early next year.

Honestly...does having "the news" in HD enhance your viewing enjoyment a lot? I dont have HD so I obviously dont have first hand knowledge, but it's not something I would think one would need in HD. A movie, a tv show, certainly a sports game...but the news?

I can take it or leave it, but I'm with you that HD is better suited for movies, shows, and sports programming.

The one interesting use for HD news with a 16:9 image is what Fox News Channel HD and Fox Business Network HD do with the extra area. They put other news, weather, stocks, etc. in a space to the right called the "Fox HD Wing" and keeps the actual video content in a 4:3 sized image aligned to the left.

QVC HD does something similar, but it offers nothing more than a continual loop of ads about HDTVs, ordering information, and plugging their website.

From what I've seen the Traffic camera's (and any SD) are 4:3 with blue HD bars on the sides.

Although it doesn't really matter, I prefer watching the news in HD. Especially now that I see it that way.

The one interesting use for HD news with a 16:9 image is what Fox News Channel HD and Fox Business Network HD do with the extra area. They put other news, weather, stocks, etc. in a space to the right called the "Fox HD Wing" and keeps the actual video content in a 4:3 sized image aligned to the left.


Fox Business Channel HD...is that a cable/satellite channel or is that broadcast OTA where you are? The only Fox I get is the 53-1 HD and 53-2 SD, along with 8-1 out of Johnstown.

Fox Business Channel HD...is that a cable/satellite channel or is that broadcast OTA where you are? The only Fox I get is the 53-1 HD and 53-2 SD, along with 8-1 out of Johnstown.

I get 8 and 53 over the air as well, but FBC HD via satellite.

Law and Order SVU not HD last night on WPXI (as received via D*)

16/9 Widescreen SD on center of screen.

sooooooooooooo disappointing.


constant audio dropouts as well



at least Heroes was ok the other night. sigh.




well, the replay tonight was in HD .... grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

We are trying a digital translator next summer to see if it improves service to a highly populated valley in the city. This will tell us a lot.
I was wondering if any other Pittsburgh stations are considering a digital translator or repeater anywhere? For instance it looks like OTA reception of WPXI-DT would be very difficult in the Masontown, Albert Gallatin School District area.

I have another question for the Daves:

What's your opinion of the ATSC including MPEG-4 AVC in the 2.0 spec (A/72)?

Isn't this a bit late? While I think it's a much needed improvement over MPEG-2 in that these multiplexers are starving for bits, how many people (broadcasters included) are actually going to adopt this?

I know what a repeater is...I have satellite radio and it uses them on the ground to improve reception. But whats a translator, and whats the difference between it and the repeater?

A repeater is generally on the same channel as the primary station.

A translator operates on a different channel. ("Translates" it from one frequency to another)

Correct me if I'm wrong; I'm not 100% sure on that.

- Trip

No idea whether ABC will switch if ever. The transcoder works amazingly well, we see no difference.. Theoretically 720P has an advantage in encoding, particularly if we were to try what you guys do now with 3 channels in a 19.39 MBps stream, but as I explained above to ChuckZ there are a lot of other practical considerations. Main benefit is we are more like the rest of the world when it comes to buying equipment or hd programs. And I suppose in the marketing world "more is better" when it comes to lines of resolution.Dave, I can't say where the problem lies, but I can see significant degradation somewhere along the line in the 720p->1080i conversion on my setup, which for reference is a DirecTV HR20 outputting native format to a Sony VPL-VW50 projector on a 106" screen.

Keep in mind my source isn't OTA but rather DirecTV's MPEG-4 transcode, but it is coming in at your now-native 1080i. On the plus side, I don't really notice any problems with respect to mosquito noise or blocking. However, the actual rescale from 720p to 1080i, at least on programming I've watched, such as the Steelers game last night, had a lot of ugly scaling artifacts and apparent loss of resolution, almost as if only basic point sampling was being done and / or it's scaling to 540p with very visible loss of horizontal resolution (this being most noticeable in the graphics). Switching over to ESPN (which of course is still broadcasting at 720p), there was absolutely no comparison; the image was far cleaner and exhibited none of these artifacts. I'd post a photo or two but I'd have to snap some first. ;)

WQED to further degrade their OTA HD signal:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08273/915877-42.stm

A new digital subchannel will be added to carry programs that get pushed out (think "Charlie Rose" and the 12:30 p.m. rerun of "On Q.")

"We haven't branded that channel yet, but I'm calling it the lifelong learning channel," WQED program director Chris Fennimore said Tuesday. "It will have lifestyle programs, gardening, painting plus two significant news blocks, noon-to-3 p.m. and 9 p.m.-to-midnight."

WQED to further degrade their OTA HD signal:

Actually some PBS affiliates have already merged their HD and analog simulcast subchannels so one may go away soon.

Actually some PBS affiliates have already merged their HD and analog simulcast subchannels so one may go away soon.

It's a question worth asking WQED's folks.

I know when I emailed WPSU a while back, they expressed some reservations because of technical issues bringing their content together with the main HD channel content.

Something probably has to change. The national PBS-HD feed that the stations have been using will be going away on 02/17/09. It will be replaced on the satellite with PBS-X HD, an alternate PBS schedule designed not to compete with local stations.

That's why many PBS stations are moving to the format followed by the network stations. They could technically begin airing PBS-X HD (not sure of the legal ramifications of that, but some stations out west air the current SD PBS-X or PBS-XD feed) but it would be a totally different schedule than what's being aired now.

- Trip

Something probably has to change. The national PBS-HD feed that the stations have been using will be going away on 02/17/09. It will be replaced on the satellite with PBS-X HD, an alternate PBS schedule designed not to compete with local stations.

- Trip

I'm not questioning your information but would like to know a link to this? Thanks. :)

I'm not questioning your information but would like to know a link to this? Thanks. :)

http://www.pbsngis.org/

- Trip

Hopefully the WPXI engineer is still reading this.

WPXI HD had all sorts of audio and video drop outs on Direct TV. They tell me that the problem is on your end and something to do with the feed you are giving them.

Is this true? And if so you working on it?

I'm up in brentwood.. (15227) and considering moving to OTA. I just set up a pair of rabbit ears on my TV and it found CBS/PBS/ABC digital HD channels. It found your channel as well, but it was really weak with the signal dropping out.

Accord to the system at antennaweb WXPI is only 6.7 miles from me. It should be able to pick it up.

Is there some problem with WPXI's OTA transmission? Or do i just need a better outside antenna?

"We haven't branded that channel yet, but I'm calling it the lifelong learning channel," WQED program director Chris Fennimore said Tuesday. "It will have lifestyle programs, gardening, painting plus two significant news blocks, noon-to-3 p.m. and 9 p.m.-to-midnight."

Sounds like it will carry programming from PBS' Create (http://www.createtv.com/) channel.

I have another question for the Daves:

What's your opinion of the ATSC including MPEG-4 AVC in the 2.0 spec (A/72)?

Isn't this a bit late? While I think it's a much needed improvement over MPEG-2 in that these multiplexers are starving for bits, how many people (broadcasters included) are actually going to adopt this?

MPEG 4 is more efficient, but was not available for consideration at in the time frame of late '90s for inclusion in the original ATSC standards. Obviously broadcasters would support any new technology that makes sense but look at how many years it took just to get where we are. To start even planning to change all the MPEG 2 encoders and consumer gear would take years. I would not predict MPEG 4 over the air anytime real soon in the U.S.

Dave, I can't say where the problem lies, but I can see significant degradation somewhere along the line in the 720p->1080i conversion on my setup, which for reference is a DirecTV HR20 outputting native format to a Sony VPL-VW50 projector on a 106" screen.

Keep in mind my source isn't OTA but rather DirecTV's MPEG-4 transcode, but it is coming in at your now-native 1080i. On the plus side, I don't really notice any problems with respect to mosquito noise or blocking. However, the actual rescale from 720p to 1080i, at least on programming I've watched, such as the Steelers game last night, had a lot of ugly scaling artifacts and apparent loss of resolution, almost as if only basic point sampling was being done and / or it's scaling to 540p with very visible loss of horizontal resolution (this being most noticeable in the graphics). Switching over to ESPN (which of course is still broadcasting at 720p), there was absolutely no comparison; the image was far cleaner and exhibited none of these artifacts. I'd post a photo or two but I'd have to snap some first. ;)

Yes it's true transcoding could create a resolution loss. This would have been very likely a year ago, done poorly on an older device. But from your vantage point you can't say with certainty that's the cause of your apparent loss of resolution.

You're overlooking the fact that before I send my signal out to DirecTV for distribution (which by the way is a direct fiber connection, sparing any signal to noise degradation) I must create an MPEG2 stream with our encoder from the transcoded signal from ESPN. When you are watching ESPN from us you are seeing the same content but after 2 MPEG encode cycles (once by us and once by DirecTV) which by definition would show you a compressed version of an already compressed HD signal. So you really can't compare "apples and apples" as we do inside the station when we say it's a beautiful transcode to 1080i.

Fortunately most folks aren't watching on a 106" screen which would make the double compress even more noticeable. (I am jealous, mine is only 96") -Dave

Hopefully the WPXI engineer is still reading this.

WPXI HD had all sorts of audio and video drop outs on Direct TV. They tell me that the problem is on your end and something to do with the feed you are giving them.

Is this true? And if so you working on it?

I'm up in brentwood.. (15227) and considering moving to OTA. I just set up a pair of rabbit ears on my TV and it found CBS/PBS/ABC digital HD channels. It found your channel as well, but it was really weak with the signal dropping out.

Accord to the system at antennaweb WXPI is only 6.7 miles from me. It should be able to pick it up.


Is there some problem with WPXI's OTA transmission? Or do i just need a better outside antenna?

Hi Dan:

I am about 15 miles away from PXI, and get great reception - 94% signal strength, with the Terk HDTVI indoor antenna. (See attached from my HT) Remember, you have to point your antenna to get optimal reception. Currently, all of the digital stations in Pittsburgh are on UHF, so make sure you have an antenna with a decent UHF element. (According to Antennaweb, WQED-DT will be transitioning to VHF after Feb 17, 2009 - interesting)

Hopefully the WPXI engineer is still reading this.

WPXI HD had all sorts of audio and video drop outs on Direct TV. They tell me that the problem is on your end and something to do with the feed you are giving them.

Is this true? And if so you working on it?



+1 . horrible audio dropouts lately (and only on WPXI!!! via D*). can't put up an antenna at current residence. annoying to say the least