It's on TWO subchannels? How do you know they simply aren't "multicasting," if you will, in a manner that allows them to assign it two different subchannel IDs?

E.g.

They have WPIX-DT HD, WPXI-DT SD, and RTN in the same 6 MHz band, but tag the RTN channel twice.

I've seen it done, but I find it unlikely they would do so. It'd be worth checking into.

- Trip

I'm seeing 11-3 as dead and RTN only on 11-2.

Hopefully that's accurate since I've contacted TitanTV to update their listings accordingly. I'm not sure who is responsible for the listings but figured it couldn't hurt to notify them. They provide programming info to various devices in my home via the internet. Currently 11-3 is listed as "Off The Air" continuously and 11-2 is listed as something like "24 hour weather" continuously.

However, RTN is on -2 and -3 now since WX Plus is RIP.

Why don't you try rescanning channels, Mark. We only have RTN on 11.2 now. We did have it on .3 for a while, but only until the cable operators could make the transition.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

Cue up the music, because the Senate last night approved yet another bill to delay the transition to June 12. However, this one does not provide for more funding for the coupon program.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/162998-DTV_Delay_Bill_Provides_No_Additional_Funding_For_Coupon_Pro gram.php

Cue up the music, because the Senate last night approved yet another bill to delay the transition to June 12. However, this one does not provide for more funding for the coupon program.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/162998-DTV_Delay_Bill_Provides_No_Additional_Funding_For_Coupon_Pro gram.php

With no funding for more coupons, what's the point?

The only reason why anyone who doesn't have a converter box at this point who would need one is if they don't want to pay for one which means they aren't getting to use a coupon.

This bill for a delay is even more pointless than the last. Lets sit around and twiddle our thumbs for 5 months while nothing else changes.

With no funding for more coupons, what's the point?

The only reason why anyone who doesn't have a converter box at this point who would need one is if they don't want to pay for one which means they aren't getting to use a coupon.
The additional funding for the coupons (and for DTV transition education) is in the stimulus bill but that isn't expected to make it through the Senate and become law until mid-February.

With no funding for more coupons, what's the point?

They figure if they delay until June 12, then it will give the Commerce Department enough time to reissue coupons with the unused funds that were originally allocated for the transition.

Either WJAC has gone ahead and changed its radiation pattern for the transition, or the weather lately has severly altered transmission and reception of their signal.

Since early December my antenna sat in the same spot and I was receiving WJAC during the day at a fairly high and stable signal level, and then about a week ago it dropped out to nothing. I can reorient my antenna to receive it but most of my other stations drop off.

Perhaps the new slogan for digital TV should be "You wont see snow in your picture, but if you see snow in your yard you wont see a picture." :D

So uh, what's up with KDKA? I mean not only is the technology terrible, the coverage now too. I understand things are tight, but wow, what horrible (non-existent) coverage of the superbowl...I mean I'm sure WPXI got a few bucks from the ol general but even WTAE's coverage was great...

But yeah, WPXI's coverage was OUTSTANDING!

Hey KDKA may have some of the est looking people giving the news, but is anyone watching anymore, cause I sure don't....it's kind of irritating to not see HD on a major cities legacy TV station....sad sad sad

But yeah, WPXI's coverage was OUTSTANDING!


Thanks for the kind words, LinkNuc. As you might imagine, we were fully staffed on Sunday...we were NOT going to let anything go wrong. Trust me when I tell you that there was quite a bit of pressure on our staff for such an important game. It's great to air the Super Bowl, but to have the Steelers in it made it that much more important.

BTW...three stars of the game: Santonio Holmes, Larry Fitzgerald, James Harrison IMHO.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

Hey i gotta give credit its due. The coverage from pre-game activities to the post game news was superb. The production quality was insane, well-done to everyone behind the scenes. I gotta say I am really respecting the on-air personalities. Peggy is a given, but Darieth is quite the professional, more than I even thought. I think one of these days David's not going to be able to hold back the tears...lol.

Thanks for all the hard work!

So uh, what's up with KDKA? I mean not only is the technology terrible, the coverage now too. I understand things are tight, but wow, what horrible (non-existent) coverage of the superbowl...I mean I'm sure WPXI got a few bucks from the ol general but even WTAE's coverage was great...

But yeah, WPXI's coverage was OUTSTANDING!

Hey KDKA may have some of the est looking people giving the news, but is anyone watching anymore, cause I sure don't....it's kind of irritating to not see HD on a major cities legacy TV station....sad sad sad

As I've said before, CBS ought to be ashamed of itself for this O&O outlet.

Horrible, pitiful. Just plain outright unacceptable.

Even shows that say they're in HD aren't in HD (The Insider, CBS Evening News).

The could have at least provided a SD broadcast of their sister station WPCW on a secondary carrier, but they couldn't even figure out a way to do that.

They need called. Everyday.

The could have at least provided a SD broadcast of their sister station WPCW on a secondary carrier, but they couldn't even figure out a way to do that.

Actually, no sub channels is a stict CBS top-level rule. As an O&O KDKA cannot broadcast anything except the CBS feed.

As for the lack of syndicated content in HD, a lot more goes into play than whether a station wants to do it.

First, most syndicated content, such as Jeopardy, 2.5 Men, the various celeb gab shows, is transmitted by satellite downlink at the beginning of the week. The station has to catch the feed, and therefore has to have equipment capable of handling it.

Judging by KDKA's real difficulty with recording the CBS Evening News in HD for broadcast at 7 pm (everyone remembers the awesome glitches and sparkles), I suspect KDKA is a loooong way off from being equipped to handle syndicated stuff.

I'm not defending the behavior. Not by a long shot. I'm just saying that KDKA appears to be up against some real barriers that are only going to come down with a big investment.

Right now, WPXI is the Pittsburgh station most willing to make those investments. WTAE is close behind. Of course, WPGH benefits from their relationship with WPXI. And then there's KDKA several lengths behind the pack.

Actually, no sub channels is a stict CBS top-level rule. As an O&O KDKA cannot broadcast anything except the CBS feed.

As for the lack of syndicated content in HD, a lot more goes into play than whether a station wants to do it.

First, most syndicated content, such as Jeopardy, 2.5 Men, the various celeb gab shows, is transmitted by satellite downlink at the beginning of the week. The station has to catch the feed, and therefore has to have equipment capable of handling it.

Judging by KDKA's real difficulty with recording the CBS Evening News in HD for broadcast at 7 pm (everyone remembers the awesome glitches and sparkles), I suspect KDKA is a loooong way off from being equipped to handle syndicated stuff.

I'm not defending the behavior. Not by a long shot. I'm just saying that KDKA appears to be up against some real barriers that are only going to come down with a big investment.

Right now, WPXI is the Pittsburgh station most willing to make those investments. WTAE is close behind. Of course, WPGH benefits from their relationship with WPXI. And then there's KDKA several lengths behind the pack.

When do you think they're going to get with the digital revolution, if ever?

When do you think they're going to get with the digital revolution, if ever?

I don't know when, but the first big clue is when they get the CBS Evening News done right. Not that anyone watches the news on CBS, but maybe someone will notice when they're flipping around.

I figure it this way: the market can be a lot worse. Look at the Erie thread.

Looks like the DVT delay to June 12 bill is back on again. Since it was approved by the Senate last week and the House today, all it needs now is Obama's signature.

House approves new DTV delay bill (http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/patterson/36552)

AKA: No digital CW for pittsburgh for another four months.

How am I supposed to survive without the new 90210? ;)

Probably a bit too far away for you but the CW is on 21.2 out of Youngstown.

AKA: No digital CW for pittsburgh for another four months.

How am I supposed to survive without the new 90210? ;)

If they still carried Pens games, then it would be a true shame. :)

Alas, I will have to wait 115 more days before I have the possibility to get WBGN affiliate WEMW-LD. :mad:

Not to be a smart-aleck about this, but why does WTAE run commercials promoting its HD weather in SD (in reduced letterbox format no less)? Anyone else notice this?

All they have is Betacam tapes, and therefore are limited to SD.

AKA: No digital CW for pittsburgh for another four months.

How am I supposed to survive without the new 90210? ;)

I was excited in the prospect of "Smallville" and "Supernatural" in HD for at least a half of season,I receive 21.2, but in the winter I fall off the digital cliff!:(KDKA's UGLY sister is too much to take after watching the HD stations.

I was excited in the prospect of "Smallville" and "Supernatural" in HD for at least a half of season,I receive 21.2, but in the winter I fall off the digital cliff!:(KDKA's UGLY sister is too much to take after watching the HD stations.

You can blame that on the idiots over there at CBS's KDKA.

They constantly drag their feet on this digital revolution, and they were offered channel 30 for their digital broadcasts by the FCC and they said no.

You can blame that on the idiots over there at CBS's KDKA.

They constantly drag their feet on this digital revolution, and they were offered channel 30 for their digital broadcasts by the FCC and they said no.I would assume that there is a reason for this beyond just: "waaah, i don't feel like doing HD". ;)

To hazard just one guess/theory... the available frequency may have been limited to a lower power broadcast due to proximity to a station in another market. Waiting for a better frequency after the transition would then make perfect sense. But yeah, this is complete conjecture on my part.

You can blame that on the idiots over there at CBS's KDKA.

They constantly drag their feet on this digital revolution, and they were offered channel 30 for their digital broadcasts by the FCC and they said no.

They couldn't use channel 30. They'd have been required to either cut power down to 50 kW or less (versus KDKA-DT at 1000 kW) or co-locate with WWCP-DT, which means much of the market would be SOL.

- Trip

They couldn't use channel 30. They'd have been required to either cut power down to 50 kW or less (versus KDKA-DT at 1000 kW) or co-locate with WWCP-DT, which means much of the market would be SOL.

- Trip
Channel 30 was tested and there was too much interference closer to Pittsburgh. OTOH the million watts digital on channel 29 (WWCP) carries a lot better into the Pittsburgh market than channel 19 ever did.

Anyone notice KDKA's rattic, in again/out again picture on this morning's Price is Right seems like they are upgrading their system. [I Hope] Leo

I was excited in the prospect of "Smallville" and "Supernatural" in HD for at least a half of season,I receive 21.2, but in the winter I fall off the digital cliff!:(KDKA's UGLY sister is too much to take after watching the HD stations.

This really continues to annoy me. Smallville looked GREAT in HD when it was on 22, but then it went to this sorry excuse for a CW affiliate. Wish they'd get with it already!

They couldn't use channel 30. They'd have been required to either cut power down to 50 kW or less (versus KDKA-DT at 1000 kW) or co-locate with WWCP-DT, which means much of the market would be SOL.

- Trip

Who's in disagreement with me that using this temporary allotment (albeit at a weaker signal)on channel 30 until channel 11 discontinues its analog was WORSE than having no digital channel at all?

Hopefully we're not discussing who agrees or disagrees with you... and are instead discussing OTA subjects that you happen to have presented. ;)

I'm not knowledgeable enough about the FCC's policy on temporary frequencies to know how reasonable it would have been. But my guess is they balked at the cost and at the likelyhood of having poor enough coverage as to cause public relations problems. No broadcast at all may have been better than the amount of bad press generated by everyone having reception problems. Why pay money to make yourself look bad?

Who's in disagreement with me that using this temporary allotment (albeit at a weaker signal)on channel 30 until channel 11 discontinues its analog was WORSE than having no digital channel at all?

Why spend the money twice? They tried to relocate to channel 49 so they could build out a full signal and only have to do it once, rather than spending the money to install new gear that a lot of people would have trouble receiving, then tear it all down after 5 years and put up new gear somewhere else.

- Trip

Who's in disagreement with me that using this temporary allotment (albeit at a weaker signal)on channel 30 until channel 11 discontinues its analog was WORSE than having no digital channel at all?
Although I sort of agree with you (especially if there is a delay) do a search on WPCW and WPNA if you're interested in the details. They were dealing with the government, enough has already been said.

I think that this topic is definitely worthwhile. We shouldn't just blow it off as already discussed or unimportant.

Although it would be nice to see it discussed without KDKA employees being called "idiots". :)

I must have missed the previous discussion. Was it in this thread or elsewhere?

I think that this topic is definitely worthwhile. We shouldn't just blow it off as already discussed or unimportant.

Although it would be nice to see it discussed without KDKA employees being called "idiots". :)

I must have missed the previous discussion. Was it in this thread or elsewhere?
It may have been discussed in this thread, the Johnstown thread, and The official upcoming final DTV Table Of Allotments/channel change thread. We shouldn't call the employees of any station "idiots". Calling the CEO of CBS that is another matter, just kidding.

Search doesn't seem to be pulling up any info on this subject. So if anyone knows the details or where to go to find them... feel free to post away.

WPCW's analog-only broadcast is one of the more interesting Pittsburgh OTA topics now that the DTV transition has been delayed (again (again)). ;)

The White House wants your opinion on The DTV Delay ACT Bill
President Obama said he will not sign the DTV transaction act into law on Monday until he hears what the public has to say, you can comment here

http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing_room/dtv_delay_act/

Search doesn't seem to be pulling up any info on this subject. So if anyone knows the details or where to go to find them... feel free to post away.

WPCW's analog-only broadcast is one of the more interesting Pittsburgh OTA topics now that the DTV transition has been delayed (again (again)). ;)
Here are some to start:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=2947940&highlight=wnpa#post2947940
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8455088&highlight=wpcw#post8455088
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11245705&highlight=wpcw#post11245705
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12550207&highlight=wpcw#post12550207
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13121689&highlight=wpcw#post13121689

The White House wants your opinion on The DTV Delay ACT Bill
President Obama said he will not sign the DTV transaction act into law on Monday until he hears what the public has to say, you can comment here

http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing_room/dtv_delay_act/

Unfortunately, you are limited to just 500 characters. :)

Although STUPID! only requires 7.

Here are some to start:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=2947940&highlight=wnpa#post2947940
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8455088&highlight=wpcw#post8455088
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11245705&highlight=wpcw#post11245705
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12550207&highlight=wpcw#post12550207
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13121689&highlight=wpcw#post13121689
Thanks a bunch for digging those up!

(I probably should have searched for the call letters of the two stations separately. Searching for them together didn't turn up anything. (stupid search algo)).

Unfortunately, you are limited to just 500 characters. :)

Although STUPID! only requires 7.
LOL, I had 6 characters left but had already used six of your seven and even added the characters est to those six. I did thank the President for considering my opinion.

guys if you do comment at that page try to keep the comments constructive. the presidents staff probably present a few of each view (pro/con transition) to the president, and of those that are presented, it's unlikely any that contain "stupid" or any sort of expletives will even be given to him.

if you want your comment read, keep it tactful.

Why spend the money twice? They tried to relocate to channel 49 so they could build out a full signal and only have to do it once, rather than spending the money to install new gear that a lot of people would have trouble receiving, then tear it all down after 5 years and put up new gear somewhere else.

- Trip

I'm of the opinion that (especially) over at KDKA, if the transition to digital wasn't mandatory, we would still be seeing KDKA and WPCW until the year 2020 in analog.

I'm of the opinion that (especially) over at KDKA, if the transition to digital wasn't mandatory, we would still be seeing KDKA and WPCW until the year 2020 in analog.

Technically speaking, if it wasn't mandatory, I doubt you'd be seeing any stations in digital.

- Trip

Technically speaking, if it wasn't mandatory, I doubt you'd be seeing any stations in digital.

- Trip

what does that really say though? no one really wants this transition? I would believe it...but I'm just trying to make sure I understand what you're saying.

what does that really say though? no one really wants this transition? I would believe it...but I'm just trying to make sure I understand what you're saying.

That nobody wants to spend money they don't have to spend.

Most would agree digital is better if properly set up, but do you think they'd be turning on digital signals when most people, given a choice, would take the snowy analog over fighting with an antenna to give them dropout-free digital?

- Trip

Thanks for the White House link. Message sent.

What is the issue at KDKA? We get drop outs and a crappy picture OTA and even when on Comcast HD cable. Thought I also read where CBS did not allow them to add a subchannel but then why is WKBN 27 Youngstown allowed? They have their Fox affiliate on 27.2 and their HD picture is still much better than on KDKA. Had to switch to them last night when KDKA went blank for a bit in the middle of Ghost Whisperer.

KDKA has a much higher signal strength here than 27 which on occasion does not come in at all yet 27 still has the better picture. I'm just at a loss.

Thought I also read where CBS did not allow them to add a subchannel but then why is WKBN 27 Youngstown allowed? They have their Fox affiliate on 27.2 and their HD picture is still much better than on KDKA.
WKBN is a CBS affiliate owned by New Vision Television while KDKA is a CBS owned & operated station. CBS can't tell affiliates that they don't own not to add a subchannel.

<snip>

KDKA has a much higher signal strength here than 27 which on occasion does not come in at all yet 27 still has the better picture. I'm just at a loss.

After the analog shutoff, WKBN plans to move its digital antenna from the side of the tower to the top of the tower. Maybe you'll receive WKBN more consistently then.

CBS can't tell affiliates that they don't own not to add a subchannel.

CBS could, but no one would want to lose the viewership when the affiliates rebel. After all, advertisers buy eyeballs. Eyeballs on blocky HD and fuzzy SD are still yummy, delicious eyeballs.

CBS has no business model to benefit from subs, so its primary goal is to do the best it can with its channels where it can, while doing nothing to offend affiliates, who may in fact have a business model to profit from subs.

CBS has no business model to benefit from subs, so its primary goal is to do the best it can with its channels where it can, while doing nothing to offend affiliates, who may in fact have a business model to profit from subs.
Actually CBS did have a business model to benefit from in Pittsburgh by putting WPCW on a subchannel but that's probably a unique circumstance different from the other CBS O&Os. Considering that KDKA has enough trouble putting HD on maybe it's for the best that didn't happen.

Actually CBS did have a business model to benefit from in Pittsburgh by putting WPCW on a subchannel

A company like CBS Television that is itself owned by a holding company isn't going to see it that way.

The raw math of what is to be gained is paltry.

Approximately 90% of viewers in the Pittsburgh DMA get their local TV from cable or satellite. Within those 10% who are OTA, the digital viewers are a minority. And of that minority, how few don't at least pick the channel up by analog?

There just isn't enough to be gained for CBS Television to care, even though it owns WPCW.

The only way a company like CBS Television will care is if enough viewers complain. In this case, the viewers complaining was obviously outweighed by the CBS mandate.

A company like CBS Television that is itself owned by a holding company isn't going to see it that way.

The raw math of what is to be gained is paltry.

Approximately 90% of viewers in the Pittsburgh DMA get their local TV from cable or satellite. Within those 10% who are OTA, the digital viewers are a minority. And of that minority, how few don't at least pick the channel up by analog?

There just isn't enough to be gained for CBS Television to care, even though it owns WPCW.

The only way a company like CBS Television will care is if enough viewers complain. In this case, the viewers complaining was obviously outweighed by the CBS mandate.

And this is exactly why we will continue to see a highly inferior product from the Pittsburgh CBS O&O facility.

Hey guys,
We are testing a dual HD feed over the air feed today for WKBN and WYFX (27.1 & 27.2). Of course I'm fully aware of the hit in performance but I think it looks pretty good. I'd be interested in your opinions as to the tradeoff between the hit in performance and the ability to broadcast BOTH CBS and Fox in HD. No guarantees as to how long it will be up like this. I'm going to try and keep it at least through prime tonight depending on whether there are any problems reported to me. Right now CBS has college BB and Fox has Nascar. This is probably a fairly rigorous test for the stat muxing capabilities of my encoders. In other words, what you are seeing this afternoon will be quite representative of the worst case situation.

Nielson sweeps moved to March ....We may then see which Stations picked up ratings with the change over from analog on the 2/17th ,there should be some indication on signals received from the stations that stayed to the original switch-over , just a guess ...... http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/113523-Nielsen_Moves_Feb_2009_Sweep_To_March.php

And this is exactly why we will continue to see a highly inferior product from the Pittsburgh CBS O&O facility.
IMHO a big part of KDKA's problems at least a far as HD is concerned are their Gateway Center studios. WPXI actually built a new studio building and WTAE's studios were already at a location where they could upgrade or expand if they had to. KDKA doesn't have that luxury and it will be very expensive for CBS to change that.

IMHO a big part of KDKA's problems at least a far as HD is concerned are their Gateway Center studios. WPXI actually built a new studio building and WTAE's studios were already at a location where they could upgrade or expand if they had to. KDKA doesn't have that luxury and it will be very expensive for CBS to change that.

If that's the case, then I guess KDKA has a choice to make.

Either deal with Gateway Center and lease is "as is" ---or---get with the program and upgrade their facility and become respected.

Until then, they are still a bunch of cheap idiots.

I guess some on this forum don't like the word "idiots" but that's too bad. I calls them as I sees them.

As I understand it, some stations will still be shutting off their analog broadcast next week despite the deadline being pushed back four months...

Does anyone know if any of the Pittsburgh stations are going this route?

As I understand it, some stations will still be shutting off their analog broadcast this weekend despite the Feb 15th deadline being pushed back four months...

Does anyone know if any of the Pittsburgh stations are going this route?

I think this was mentioned over in the Johnstown-Altoona thread:

WPGH and WPMY in Pitt and WWCP and WATM in J/A. Second-hand info. Treat as such.

As I understand it, some stations will still be shutting off their analog broadcast this weekend despite the Feb 15th deadline being pushed back four months...

Does anyone know if any of the Pittsburgh stations are going this route?See this article: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09036/947094-67.stm

In Pittsburgh, ABC affiliate WTAE, CBS affiliate KDKA and NBC affiliate WPXI are expected to maintain their analog signals until June 12.
:
In Pittsburgh, Sinclair-owned Fox station WPGH and My Network TV affiliate WPMY along with PBS stations WQED/WQEX expect to cease broadcasting in analog on Feb. 17, as planned.

Question on WQED:

Do they plan to move over to RF 13? I've heard they were hedging a bit about that move.

Question on WQED:

Do they plan to move over to RF 13? I've heard they were hedging a bit about that move.

Even if the shutoff had happened on time, the answer would be "not yet." They need to replace a bunch of gear and need the analog signal to go away before they do that.

- Trip

As I understand it, some stations will still be shutting off their analog broadcast next week despite the deadline being pushed back four months...

Does anyone know if any of the Pittsburgh stations are going this route?

The FCC released a list of the stations that plan to adhere to the February 17 date, as well as those who are participating in the "Nightlight" program:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-221A5.xls

As linked above:

FCC deadline for filing the intent to drop analog was today, and the official list for Pgh is WPGH, WCWB and WQED.

Looks like, if all are approved, 681 of the 1700 stations nationwaide will drop analog by 2.17. That should help with the confusion.

Yeah, the confusion has started already. I offer to you something I heard at work today...

"But you said the HD TV date was pushed back four months! So I can't use my converter box for some stations? Should I call Comcast and return the box?"

Where do you even start after hearing something like that. ;)

What is Nightlight program"

Hey guys,
We are testing a dual HD feed over the air feed today for WKBN and WYFX (27.1 & 27.2). Of course I'm fully aware of the hit in performance but I think it looks pretty good. I'd be interested in your opinions as to the tradeoff between the hit in performance and the ability to broadcast BOTH CBS and Fox in HD. No guarantees as to how long it will be up like this. I'm going to try and keep it at least through prime tonight depending on whether there are any problems reported to me. Right now CBS has college BB and Fox has Nascar. This is probably a fairly rigorous test for the stat muxing capabilities of my encoders. In other words, what you are seeing this afternoon will be quite representative of the worst case situation.

Unfortunately, was not able to watch anything on Sunday. But since it appears that your test is still ongoing, I have been viewing the broadcasts the last couple of days. On my end, everything looks great. Haven't noticed any issues at all. I am by no means an expert but it appears as though if you choose to go this route, it will work out just fine.

By the way, did Obama sign the delay bill? There is no delay until he does that, right?

Unfortunately, was not able to watch anything on Sunday. But since it appears that your test is still ongoing, I have been viewing the broadcasts the last couple of days. On my end, everything looks great. Haven't noticed any issues at all. I am by no means an expert but it appears as though if you choose to go this route, it will work out just fine.

By the way, did Obama sign the delay bill? There is no delay until he does that, right?


Obama was one of the guys pushing for the House and Senate to pass the "delay" bill, so undoubtedly he will sign it when it comes to his desk.

Too bad.

It's done.

What is Nightlight program"

The nightlight program will keep the analog on the air for a week or two airing an informational slideshow that basically says "you've missed the transition, here's what you need to do."

- Trip

The nightlight program will keep the analog on the air for a week or two airing an informational slideshow that basically says "you've missed the transition, here's what you need to do."

Of course, the part where people are told to climb on their roofs in western PA during the winter to install a UHF antenna... that's gonna be where the hijinks ensue.

people really need to be careful about going to UHF only antennas after the transition. Consider this, right now in the PGH viewing area, all the channels will be UHF or VHF-High...but unless the gvt sells off the VHF-low frequencies, there could still be new channels to come to the PGH market at some point that start broadcasting on VHF-low. If all you have is a UHF antenna...the best you can expect to receive is VHF-hi.

Just something for folks to keep in mind.

Even with a low-VHF antenna, low-VHF channels won't be watchable, or if they are, they'll be unreliable. Most stations fled from that band for a reason.

- Trip

there could still be new channels to come to the PGH market at some point that start broadcasting on VHF-low

I'd be shocked if more than a couple LPs went near it.

Keep in mind, there is a full-power channel 5 in West Virginia, so that's a channel that is not going to be assigned in the Pittsburgh market. And, my understanding is that anything much below 5 is simply not usable.

I'd be shocked if more than a couple LPs went near it.

Keep in mind, there is a full-power channel 5 in West Virginia, so that's a channel that is not going to be assigned in the Pittsburgh market. And, my understanding is that anything much below 5 is simply not usable.

One of the LP's (WBGN?) in Pittsburgh has applied for digital on channel 6. As Trip mentions, it's unlikely in the extreme that any full power stations will covet channels 2 - 6.

Update:
A construction permit for a digital companion channel to WBPA (currently acts as a translator for WPCW) as well an application for an NTSC displacement is held by Venture Technologies Group, LLC on channel 6.
Thanks Sammer for the correct info! :)

What a mess:

http://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=fcc-to-tv-stations-ready-to-make-th-2009-02-13

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/02/13/technology/AP-TEC-Digital-TV-FCC.html

All to appease a few miserable procrastinators.

What a mess

I found it amusing that WPGH was running a PSA about the switchover during sunday's primetime programming where they first stated that the analog shutoff will be June 12th then proceeded to say how they were shutting off analog on Feb 17th. There's zero chance of confusion there.

Also, I feel sorry for everyone who wanted WPCW in HD since now they are screwed till at least June unless you have Comcast or FIOS.

Consider technologically unprepared Aunt Minnie. On Wednesday when she tunes in American Idol, it's not there, only a "night light" message that Channel 53 has gone off the air. She phones her nephew for help. Something's wrong with her TV! All the other channels work fine, or most of them anyway, but she can't find Fox. Her nephew helps her figure out what she needs to do to get the digital signal. It takes a couple of months and costs some money, but by April, she has a digital converter box and a new outdoor antenna tower. By June, she's learned to watch not only WPGH but all the other stations in digital. When the other stations shut down their analog transmitters, she doesn't even notice.

If, on the other hand, all the stations had switched off at the same time (whether now or in June), Aunt Minnie would have found herself not merely missing a channel or two. She would have suddenly been without any TV at all.

Therefore, shutting down some stations before others may actually turn out to be a good thing.

Actually, the Aunt Minnie scenario will likely play out this way.

Aunt Minnie can no longer watch American Idol this week. She calls WPGH repeatedly, wondering what happened despite the months upon months of warnings and the current message. She leave several half coherent ranting messages berating WPGH for taking her programming away, calling up several conspiracy theories as to why she now needs to spend $45 one time on something to watch what she has before. She continues to do nothing, half hoping that things will just resolve themselves.

June rolls around and now she can't watch any TV and she's calling all the stations now, ranting and raving.

If people were ignoring the warnings before, they are beyond hope. Besides, the above situation isn't likely to play out anyways. According to Nielsen, seniors 55+ are actually the age demographic in Pittsburgh that are the most prepared. Only 1.73% of those households are not ready for the switchover. The largest demographic that are unprepared are households under the age of 35 at 3.6%.

In total only 2.56% of all households in the Pittsburgh area are unprepared. Chances are at this point that people who are unprepared are just waiting until they have no other choice. DTV boxes aren't in short supply and aren't exactly pricey even without the coupons. Target was just advertising their boxes this week for $45. You can walk into any retailer that deals with any electronics and buy one.

Meanwhile, especially in this market, you've created a situation where not all stations can be tuned digital (WPCW) and not all stations can be tuned analog (WPGH). The vast majority of digital converter boxes on the market do not have analog pass-through and very few people are savvy enough to setup a switch to bypass the box when watching analog stations. So, if you are someone that gets programming OTA and you don't have an ATSC/NTSC combo tuner or a DTV converter with analog passthough and watch both WPGH programming and WPCW programming, you are screwed after today.

OK guys, glad you are all on the job today. Rob Owen's story today implied that the cutover here would be in affect tomorrow. I always thought that the cutover (hate that word, it is not a cutover, it is a cease-analog action) would be midnight Tuesday, and thus not affect anyone until wednesday.

I e-mailed him and he responded that I was wrong. So, what is your take on this? Tuesday or Wednesday?

The largest demographic that are unprepared are households under the age of 35 at 3.6%.



And I bet that there is a large portion of these who:

1) Only use the TV for watching DVDs
2) Only use the TV for Games
3) Don't even use this TV
4) Don't care

The vast majority of digital converter boxes on the market do not have analog pass-through and very few people are savvy enough to setup a switch to bypass the box when watching analog stations.

Where did you get this. I have always heard that the vast majority of the sold units have this.

Where did you get this. I have always heard that the vast majority of the sold units have this.

When I said the majority, I may have exaggerated. Many do now, but it is a recent trend. I bought two boxes with coupons in the summer of '08 (one Apex from best buy and one magnavox from walmart) and there were no boxes on the market at that time which did analog pass-through.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_CECB_units

As you can see, the first release of almost all the boxes did not have analog pass-through. It boils down to when people purchased the boxes as to how many in the field cannot do analog pass-through. The fact remains though that there are a significant number of boxes out there that cannot.

This just adds to the confusion really. Someone who gets their stuff OTA with a DTV converter box may or may not be able to tune WPGH and WPCW simultaneously.

Also, too, beyond all that, people actually need to understand what's going on. Analog pass-though only works if you have the box connected through RF. If someone goes out and buys a box because they cannot get WPGH anymore and connects it through composite, they are still pretty much screwed since their antenna is now connected to an ATSC only tuner. They need to understand that for this one channel they need to tune with the TVs internal tuner and for this other one they need to use the box to tune.

I really don't understand why these boxes don't have an NTSC tuner as well. It would have simplified this whole thing and you can't tell me an NTSC tuner would have added to the cost of the box very much.

WPGH has been advertising that they will go dark at 11:59pm on the 17th. So, one more day still.

Consider technologically unprepared Aunt Minnie. On Wednesday when she tunes in American Idol, it's not there, only a "night light" message that Channel 53 has gone off the air. She phones her nephew for help. Something's wrong with her TV! All the other channels work fine, or most of them anyway, but she can't find Fox. Her nephew helps her figure out what she needs to do to get the digital signal. It takes a couple of months and costs some money, but by April, she has a digital converter box and a new outdoor antenna tower. By June, she's learned to watch not only WPGH but all the other stations in digital. When the other stations shut down their analog transmitters, she doesn't even notice.

If, on the other hand, all the stations had switched off at the same time (whether now or in June), Aunt Minnie would have found herself not merely missing a channel or two. She would have suddenly been without any TV at all.

Therefore, shutting down some stations before others may actually turn out to be a good thing.

Too bad for Aunt Minnie. Maybe she can use the time that she put aside for American Idol and go sponge bathe or soak her teeth.

I bought two boxes with coupons in the summer of '08 (one Apex from best buy and one magnavox from walmart) and there were no boxes on the market at that time which did analog pass-through.

.

You mst have gotten one of the very early models of APEX Dt1001 (I didn't think that BB sold that one). They quickly switched to the 250 and then the 502, both of which have APT.

WPGH has been advertising that they will go dark at 11:59pm on the 17th. So, one more day still

That's really interesting. I got another e-mail from Rob Owen and he said that Sinclair (WPGH) told him Monday night 11:59 p.m. and the others told him 11:59 p.m. Tuesday.

I really don't understand why these boxes don't have an NTSC tuner as well. It would have simplified this whole thing and you can't tell me an NTSC tuner would have added to the cost of the box very much.



Because the government (farsighted thinkers that they are) CECB program prohibited the inclusion of the NTSC tuner.

You mst have gotten one of the very early models of APEX Dt1001 (I didn't think that BB sold that one). They quickly switched to the 250 and then the 502, both of which have APT.

I'll have to check the model number when I get home from work. I haven't even had it out of the box yet. I picked it up at the end of July of last year. I suppose it's possible that it does analog passthrough and it just wasn't advertised, but usually they put those bullets on the outside of the box.

I bought it at the Best Buy at the homestead waterfront. There was a huge pallet of them up front.

I do know the Magnavox one I bought from Walmart in May does not. I lent it to my neighbors for awhile until they got their coupons and they were unable to tune WPCW at all when the box was connected.



Either way though, it's just going to create further confusion for people that they can use the box for one station and can't use it for another.


That's really interesting. I got another e-mail from Rob Owen and he said that Sinclair (WPGH) told him Monday night 11:59 p.m. and the others told him 11:59 p.m. Tuesday.

17th is the date that they used last night during Fox's sunday night lineup. I got the following from WPGH's website.

http://www.wpgh53.com/dtv/index.shtml


For the past year, television stations, including this station, have notified viewers of the February 17, 2009 analog shutoff date through on-air announcements, informational crawls, full-length programs, and their website. As a result, in order to avoid additional confusion due to the date change and as permitted by the recently enacted legislation, this station has notified the FCC that we would like to cease analog operations on February 17, 2009, as originally planned, and the FCC has consented to this station's plans for early termination. As required by the FCC, we are currently airing announcements throughout the day to inform our viewers that we will terminate analog broadcasting on effective at 11:59PM on February 17.

So, it looks like Rob was either misinformed or WPGH has a typo on their website (which is not impossible given the grammar of that last sentence).

My father-in-law lives in Butler County. He hasn't moved a thing in his home since his wife died in 1989. The same candy is still in her old candy dish on the coffee table. His 1971 Sylvania floor model still works, although it could use some new tubes. Today (before the switch) he gets ten analog channels KDKA-2, WTAE-4, WJAC-6, WWCP-8, WTOV-9, WPXI-11, WQED-13, WPMY-22, WPCB-40, and WPGH-53. None of these channels has a great picture, but they are all "watchable." I ordered DTV coupons for him, and when I hooked up the converter box, I had to move the antenna around for about an hour before I got any signal. With the antenna perched on the edge of his mantle, I was able to get channel 2.1 with a pixelated picture and choppy sound. It got an auto-tune signal indication on 43-1, but the box indicated no signal when I tried to switch to it. As I was leaving, I turned to see my father-in-law moving the antenna back to the top of the TV, where it belongs. It won't get anything there. It's a good thing I switched the box over to analog pass-thru before I left. He refuses to get cable, so his TV will be going totally dark in a few months.

That, my friends, is the real scenario for some of these older people.

Yes, that story is sad, however it is what it is. This needs to be done, we can't keep living in the past for the few people that are unwilling to accept change.

This isn't being done because some people who make DTV boxes got together and said "lets screw people." It's being done because there is a public resource (the airwaves) that are being used really inefficiently right now. One of the things the spectrum is being freed up for is improved public safety communication networks. Is your father-in-law not easily getting TV or being forced to get entry level lifeline cable worth someone's life that may be saved by having a better safety network? Hell, is it even worth not giving other people more competitive options for broadband internet access in remote areas?

I'm not trying to sound unsympathetic, but at the same time he HAS options. From what you've told us, either OTA reception or cable are options, he just doesn't feel they are worth the change necessary to make them work.

It won't get anything there. It's a good thing I switched the box over to analog pass-thru before I left. He refuses to get cable, so his TV will be going totally dark in a few months.

Part of this issue is the boxes themselves. The reception varies greatly. I had a Magnavox convertor box and the reception was horrible but my Zenith box gets almost everything I got on analog. Same antenna, same TV, same day. So you might want to see if you can borrow another convertor from a friend and see if it makes any difference by changing models.

Another issue may be the rabbit ears themselves. You may need to upgrade them as well to something more UHF friendly.

I'm also in Butler County and get all those station's digital signals except for 4 and 9 but also get 21 and 27 most of the time.

One of the LP's (WBGN?) in Pittsburgh has applied for digital on channel 6. As Trip mentions, it's unlikely in the extreme that any full power stations will covet channels 2 - 6.
A construction permit for a digital companion channel to WBPA (currently acts as a translator for WPCW) as well an application for an NTSC displacement is held by Venture Technologies Group, LLC on channel 6.

Looks like Peak Media has decided to pull the plug early. I turned to RF 8 and my HDTV got snow, which was confirmed by my analog TV, but when I hit channel down to 6 then back up to 8 it locked in "8-1." Until I deleted RF 29, the channel list had two sets of 8-1 and 8-2. Now I guess they will run crawls on 29 telling people to rescan as that will be shut off.

Fired up my new Zenith DTT-901 for our small TV, and was pleasantly surprised to get WTRF 7-1 with a very strong signal! Try your luck with a re-scan on your own setups!

Fired up my new Zenith DTT-901 for our small TV, and was pleasantly surprised to get WTRF 7-1 with a very strong signal! Try your luck with a re-scan on your own setups!

WTRF-DT went to full power operation on ch 7 today at 12:30 PM. They have CBS on 7.1, Fox on 7.2 and ABC on 7.3. Only HD programming is on 7.1, others are SD. (They also do some horrible stretching on 7.1, including their news program. :() Their HD looks "soft" also due to squeezing so much into the available bandwidth.

Looks like Peak Media has decided to pull the plug early. I turned to RF 8 and my HDTV got snow, which was confirmed by my analog TV, but when I hit channel down to 6 then back up to 8 it locked in "8-1." Until I deleted RF 29, the channel list had two sets of 8-1 and 8-2. Now I guess they will run crawls on 29 telling people to rescan as that will be shut off.

I dont know what the heck they did. For the past 9 months that I've been viewing the digital WWCP feed I've gotten nothing but 100% signal with great picture/reception. I wake up this mornign, and the thing is bouncing between 20 and 80% dignal with pixelation.

Are they having storms over there, did they change their radiation pattern, signal power, or what? Are they on VHF now? I tried rotating my (large directional) antenna with no improvement. As it stands, if it doesnt improve, this is gonna suck...bigtime...as I watch it (and WJAC/6-1) waay more than I watch the Pittsburgh affiliate. :mad:

I dont know what the heck they did. For the past 9 months that I've been viewing the digital WWCP feed I've gotten nothing but 100% signal with great picture/reception. I wake up this mornign, and the thing is bouncing between 20 and 80% dignal with pixelation.

WWCP shutdown their analog transmitter at noon and went live with their DTV signal on RF 8. For some strange reason, they were also transmitting DTV on RF 29 this evening. Which is kind of annoying, because now I have two sets of 8.1s and 8.2 programmed into my TV (you can only delete channels by factory reset, so I lose all my DXing trophies :( ).

Oh, well. On the upside, I feel a lot better about how receivable WPCW and WQED will be when they go VHF this spring.

Small note on that: has anyone else heard that WQED is going to transition in April?

No issues here with WWCP other than the 2 of each which came up after rescanning yesterday.

Here is the schedule for the rest of the switches.

March 17 - WPCB (40)

April 1 - WQED (13) (The only station in Pittsburgh retaining its analog channel number.)

June 12 - KDKA (2), WPCW (19), WPXI (11) & WTAE (4)

So WWCP is already broadcasting digital on 8? Bummer, looks like i'll lose that station completely when they go exclusively to channel 8 and abandon channel 29.

Living just east of Frick Park (Regents Square), I can pick up 29 flawlessly but don't even get a blip of signal on 8. Granted, this is probably because my attic antennas don't dip that far into the VHF spectrum. Hmmm, looks like I may have to investigate new antennas. Is it worth it? The only show I'll miss is This Old House on Sunday mornings.

My plan is to wait until WQED switches so that I know if channel 13 is going to cause problems too...

are you guys using a CECB or a TV with a built in tuner to receive WWCP?

I'm using a CM-7000 CECB and it's pretty bad. Is it possible that it's picking up both frequencies and combining them and that's giving me some sort of multi-path interference...or is combining two frequencies like that impossible for something like the CM CECB?

Part of this issue is the boxes themselves. The reception varies greatly. I had a Magnavox convertor box and the reception was horrible but my Zenith box gets almost everything I got on analog. Same antenna, same TV, same day. So you might want to see if you can borrow another convertor from a friend and see if it makes any difference by changing models.

Another issue may be the rabbit ears themselves. You may need to upgrade them as well to something more UHF friendly.

I'm also in Butler County and get all those station's digital signals except for 4 and 9 but also get 21 and 27 most of the time.

I have experienced first hand a lot of differences in reception of my HDTV converter boxes and even 2 of my HDTV's with built in tuners. My first HDTV would take signal hits on ch 11. I figured it was just because I had rabbit ears only. When the spring came, I installed a 91XG antenna with rotor and had the same results.Called BB and they sent out a kid to tell me to call my cable company, I told him I have no cable , he said " well its your tv because a big tv takes more current" I kid you not! Finally sold the set to a person who has Comcast and she has no problems. Next bought a Samsung 32" 450 series and could not get WFMJ (Not even 1 bar) . Sent it back and the replacement has the same problem. Amazon can't figure out If I have a problem or not. All I can say is my other 5 tv's and 2 boxes receive almost everything with a solid sgnal. This has been quite a learning experience, but STILL worth it!:eek:

are you guys using a CECB or a TV with a built in tuner to receive WWCP?

I'm using a CM-7000 CECB and it's pretty bad. Is it possible that it's picking up both frequencies and combining them and that's giving me some sort of multi-path interference...or is combining two frequencies like that impossible for something like the CM CECB?Neither. I'm using a non-coupon eligible tuner purchased a few years ago. Also a network based tuner for use by computers. ;)

Combining two stations at the same time isn't possible. You either tune in one or the other. WWCP is broadcasting on both channel 29 and 8. Eventually 29 will disappear so you should be concerned with the reception of channel 8. (Keep in mind that both channels will be listed as channel 8 once tuned in.) If you get 29 and not 8, then it is likely you have a UHF only antenna that doesn't receive VHF signals as low as channel 8. This is the problem I have. If I want to continue watching WWCP after they turn off channel 29, I'll have to buy a new antenna.

are you guys using a CECB or a TV with a built in tuner to receive WWCP?

I get it with my HDTV, a Samsung DTB-H260F, and a WinTV USB stick, although I am only 20 miles from their transmitter.

I was watching the Public Service Announcement on analog-53 last night and they began by saying that if you are seeing this message while using an antenna your TV does not have a digital tuner, and if you are using a converter box it is not working.

Duh! I don't think so. My TV has a digital tuner, I just happened to tune to the analog station. Seems like they need to allow for that possibility also. I'm sure there are people out there who have a digital tuner, but have been watching the analog channel only because that's what they always did. I know this is true since I've talked to several of them.

I wrote WWCP tuesday about the signal fluctuating and how it was almost unwatchable now, and and first the statoin engineer wrote me back and seemed concerned/willing to help me, asking if I'd done a rescan and what type of antenna I had. however, once I informed him that I lived over by Pittsburgh, he must have lost interest as I havent heard from him since. how sad.

it would be one thing if I had never received their signal very well but I was getting 100% signal and perfect PQ on their digital signal until they pulled the plug monday.

If this type of thing happens in a lot of places across the country, I wonder if stations that decided to go back to VHF will rethink their position? The more people they can reach the better, or so I thought. Their advertisers caertainly would agree.

I think it is likely that he lost interest because nothing has changed yet with their digital broadcast on channel 29. (right?) It is most likely that atmospheric conditions and/or solar activity are the culprit.

However I will be writing to WWCP to say that their switch back to VHS will lose me as a viewer. Of course they already know that this will happen for some people. But a stack of mail or a full email inbox couldn't hurt...

I wrote WWCP tuesday about the signal fluctuating and how it was almost unwatchable now, and and first the statoin engineer wrote me back and seemed concerned/willing to help me, asking if I'd done a rescan and what type of antenna I had. however, once I informed him that I lived over by Pittsburgh, he must have lost interest as I havent heard from him since. how sad.

That sounds like my interaction with WJAC. First e-mail had no reply, second got a reply asking for my address, and when they discovered I was to their west, probably figured why bother. Or else, third times the charm :rolleyes:.

The more people they can reach the better, or so I thought. Their advertisers caertainly would agree.

I thought the same in respect to the aforementioned station. Many businesses in eastern Westmoreland County advertise on WJAC since they're just over the mountain, but with their directional antenna, no one here with antennas will be able to see those commercials. Comcast carries it, but no doubt receives it via a fiber link.

Is it the weather or did WWCP kill their UHF (29) transmission?

Is it the weather or did WWCP kill their UHF (29) transmission?

Looks like it is gone. I just moved the antenna to face it and no signal at all was detected.

It was there this AM before work, definitely gone now.

yeah...29 is gone...maybe for good. I found out that I can rotate my antenna and pick up 8 (on 8) at mediocre signal strength...unfortunately when I do that I lose Fox 53 and WQED.

[QUOTE=rluyster;15846913]WTRF-DT went to full power operation on ch 7 today at 12:30 PM. They have CBS on 7.1, Fox on 7.2 and ABC on 7.3. Only HD programming is on 7.1, others are SD. (They also do some horrible stretching on 7.1, including their news program. :() Their HD looks "soft" also due to squeezing so much into the available bandwidth.[/QU Does anybody pick up WTRF-DT now power has increased? I cannot receive them at all ?

[QUOTE=rluyster;15846913]WTRF-DT went to full power operation on ch 7 today at 12:30 PM. They have CBS on 7.1, Fox on 7.2 and ABC on 7.3. Only HD programming is on 7.1, others are SD. (They also do some horrible stretching on 7.1, including their news program. :() Their HD looks "soft" also due to squeezing so much into the available bandwidth.[/QU Does anybody pick up WTRF-DT now power has increased? I cannot receive them at all ?

I get them on my converter box that's tied to my attic VHF antenna, but not on my HD set that uses a UHF attic antenna. I'm going to need to rework my setup once the dust settles later this year.

WTAE-DT. Translator. Channel 22. 9.25 kW. WQED tower.

And there should be much rejoicing.

- Trip

WTAE-DT. Translator. Channel 22. 9.25 kW. WQED tower.

OK, everyone, follow along!

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=732291

Trip, is this the first application for one of these?

OK, everyone, follow along!

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=732291

Trip, is this the first application for one of these?

There've been others in the US (the first one filed was by the infamous KRMA in Denver), but I've never seen one quite like this, with it covering the city of license and all.

- Trip

WTAE-DT. Translator. Channel 22. 9.25 kW. WQED tower.

And there should be much rejoicing.

- Trip

Could it possibly be up in time for the June 12th "switch-over" date?

If so, you'll hear a loud "HOSANNA!" at my house. :)

I can't get WTAE-DT on 51, and I lost the Johnstown ABC affiliate when they switched back to VHF last week. :(

Could it possibly be up in time for the June 12th "switch-over" date?

I imagine they'll want it up as soon as possible. Hopefully we can get an answer in this thread. =) We will just have to wait and see.

- Trip

There've been others in the US (the first one filed was by the infamous KRMA in Denver), but I've never seen one quite like this, with it covering the city of license and all.


WTAE-DT on UHF 51 has always been something of a rumor north of downtown Pgh, and since the other major stations are up there, why not? Good move by them...and they make a good case for it in the filing.

Maybe it'll be a good template for other stations in similar markets with hilly terrain. Their TX site is far too south, frankly, but I can't remember the reason 4 ended up down there. I assume it's an interference issue.

I'm more surprised they didn't move their full-powered signal into town (even if it meant changing channels) and put the translator out in the fringe. I would have thought that would be the way to go with it.

I'd like to see someone try a DTS in a really hilly area like Pittsburgh. It would be an interesting experiment.

- Trip

Slightly dumb question on my part:

Why not just move the station to full power on ch 22 on that tower and use 51 as a translator?

Slightly dumb question on my part:

Why not just move the station to full power on ch 22 on that tower and use 51 as a translator?

WFXP-DT 22 in Erie.

- Trip

I'm more surprised they didn't move their full-powered signal into town (even if it meant changing channels) and put the translator out in the fringe. I would have thought that would be the way to go with it.

I'd like to see someone try a DTS in a really hilly area like Pittsburgh. It would be an interesting experiment.

- Trip

The WTAE engineer looks in here on occasion. I was going to ask the same question about whether they had considered a DTS. And if so, why they decided not to go that way.

The weather was fairly nice today, and WWCP's signal has dropped off to nothing in my current location/antenna orientation since yesterday. I wonder if they cut their power down? Anyone else receiving it as of 11:15PM in Pittsburgh?

Is it too much for these stations to keep their digital signals at the same power level as their analog signals were? I know they wanna save money, but like I said the more customers they reach, the more their advertising spots are worth.

The WTAE engineer looks in here on occasion. I was going to ask the same question about whether they had considered a DTS. And if so, why they decided not to go that way.

Ok, I have a question. Can someone explain briefly how DTS is different from regular DT transmissions?

WFXP-DT 22 in Erie.

Hmmm . . . when WPMY finally kills their all-Spanish post-transition converter box lovefest, I'll have to see if I can't DX that one. Never had much luck with Erie, but seems like it might be worth a try.

Ok, I have a question. Can someone explain briefly how DTS is different from regular DT transmissions?

DT = one very powerful transmitter
DTS = many low-powered transmitters from various locations

That's as short a description as I can manage. :)

- Trip

DT = one very powerful transmitter
DTS = many low-powered transmitters from various locations

That's as short a description as I can manage. :)

- Trip

To further clarify DTS = Distributed Transmission System (multiple transmitters using the same channel)

Until quite recently it was considered experimental, but several months ago the FCC issued rules allowing stations to apply.
WPSU, the Penn State PBS station operates a DTS with their main transmitter located in Clearfield and a translator in State College, both on channel 15.

The weather was fairly nice today, and WWCP's signal has dropped off to nothing in my current location/antenna orientation since yesterday. I wonder if they cut their power down? Anyone else receiving it as of 11:15PM in Pittsburgh?

Is it too much for these stations to keep their digital signals at the same power level as their analog signals were? I know they wanna save money, but like I said the more customers they reach, the more their advertising spots are worth.

I have had the same expeience with the station going on and off. I did a rescan and eliminated 29UHF and then was pleased to receive 8 with 4 bars signal. Next day nothing and later that day back on again. I guess they need a little more time to straighten things out. I guess the next DOA will be WJAC once the transitation takes place (If there isn't another delay) :eek:

DT = one very powerful transmitter
DTS = many low-powered transmitters from various locations

That's as short a description as I can manage. :)

- Trip

Thanks Trip. that would be nice for WTAE and many of the stations in this region, but I doubt it will happen.

I guess the next DOA will be WJAC once the transitation takes place (If there isn't another delay) :eek:

My understanding is that WJAC isn't doing anything with their digital transmitter. If you receive it now, on RF 34, you should receive it post transition.

I'd imagine like many stations they'll move their digital antenna further up the tower once they're done with analog. So, if anything, post-transition there may be some improvement.

OK, everyone, follow along!

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=732291

Trip, is this the first application for one of these?

WTAE-TV is listed as 100 kw.
WTAE-DT is listed as 1000 kw.
The RDT is listed as 9.25 kw.

Is the digital feed actually 10 times more than the analog?
And the RDT is only 1% as strong as the original digital transmission??

My understanding is that WJAC isn't doing anything with their digital transmitter. If you receive it now, on RF 34, you should receive it post transition.

I'd imagine like many stations they'll move their digital antenna further up the tower once they're done with analog. So, if anything, post-transition there may be some improvement.

WJAC's digital system is complete. The ch 34 antenna on on a new (higher) tower than the ch 6.

WTAE-TV is listed as 100 kw.
WTAE-DT is listed as 1000 kw.
The RDT is listed as 9.25 kw.

Is the digital feed actually 10 times more than the analog?
And the RDT is only 1% as strong as the original digital transmission??

To your first question... "sort of." WTAE analog is on channel 4, whereas WTAE digital is on channel 51. The higher you go in channel number, the more power is needed to cover the same area. In fact, being on low-VHF, channel 4 covers a larger area with their 100 kW analog signal than they do on channel 51 at 1000 kW. There's also a difference in how power levels are measured between analog and digital that actually makes that gap wider than it appears.

As to the second one, that's also correct, but don't underestimate it. I had a digital signal sign on in my area at 17.9 kW, and it maxed out my signal meter 53 miles away. Digital signals do really, really well over distances, as long as you have line of sight. I think their channel 22 signal will do just fine as long as WFXP-DT in Erie isn't interfering.

- Trip

My understanding is that WJAC isn't doing anything with their digital transmitter. If you receive it now, on RF 34, you should receive it post transition.

I'd imagine like many stations they'll move their digital antenna further up the tower once they're done with analog. So, if anything, post-transition there may be some improvement.

Thanks, that would be very good news if I could keep 6 after the switch.

WJAC's digital system is complete. The ch 34 antenna on on a new (higher) tower than the ch 6.
Not a trace of WJAC here where I am in Greene County. I always received WJAC on analog. The only Pittsburgh digital channel that I can currently receive is WTAE. So KDKA, WPXI, and WQED may be history for me after analog shuts down.

Not a trace of WJAC here where I am in Greene County. I always received WJAC on analog. The only Pittsburgh digital channel that I can currently receive is WTAE. So KDKA, WPXI, and WQED may be history for me after analog shuts down.

Greene County is not an ideal location for digital reception (unless you happen to reside on a ridge top.) Your situation serves as another example of why the FCC is going to have to look long and hard at maximum power levels and why stations will likely have to look at building out translator or DTS networks. For the stations it comes down to return on investment - are there enough OTA viewers (or potential viewers) to make the effort worthwhile. You're in a tough spot living in a very rural county on the fringes of several TV markets.

The problem with the terrain here in eastern Green County lays in the water shed areas that feed the Monongahelia River. Since the river runs north the valleys that handle the water shed run primarily east and west. This generally results in most eastern areas of the county having a ridge to the north and south. My northern ridge is about 750 feet due north with two step elevations totaling over 125 feet. My antenna is at 42 feet supported by a 30 foot tower which is the limit of what I can safely pull up at that location. If I was located 400 feet farther west I would be looking across a slightly lower ridge area with the possibility of better reception.
http://amfone.net/Amforum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17129.0;attach=8419;image

today I tried rotating my antenna and playing around a little to see if I could get WWCP. I could get it to come in but it was blocky and kept dropping out. Such a shame, as i really did enjoy their programming over Fox 53's.

I wish they hadnt extended the transitoin deadline, as I have a feeling once the final channel lineups are done many more will be finding out that all that glitters isnt gold with respect to the wonders of DTV.

To your first question... "sort of." WTAE analog is on channel 4, whereas WTAE digital is on channel 51. The higher you go in channel number, the more power is needed to cover the same area. In fact, being on low-VHF, channel 4 covers a larger area with their 100 kW analog signal than they do on channel 51 at 1000 kW. There's also a difference in how power levels are measured between analog and digital that actually makes that gap wider than it appears.

As to the second one, that's also correct, but don't underestimate it. I had a digital signal sign on in my area at 17.9 kW, and it maxed out my signal meter 53 miles away. Digital signals do really, really well over distances, as long as you have line of sight. I think their channel 22 signal will do just fine as long as WFXP-DT in Erie isn't interfering.

- Trip

Thanks for the info and education. Two more questions:

1) If lower frequencies provide greater coverage with less power, why is that there seems to be a tendancy for stations to abandon these lower frequencies now?

2) WTAE is digital 51, PSIP mapped to 4.1. When they implement the new Channel 22 I assume it will also be mapped to 4.1. Will it have a new call sign?

BTW. Thanks again for your great RabbitEars site. I know it must be laborous keeping up with all the changes. Just a note to indicate that as you probably know WPXI has dropped 11.2 Weather and moved RTN to 11.2 (from 11.3).

Do you Twitter? If you care, you can follow me @WPXI_Dave. For those of you who don't, just ignore this post.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

Thanks for the info and education. Two more questions:

1) If lower frequencies provide greater coverage with less power, why is that there seems to be a tendancy for stations to abandon these lower frequencies now?

Because there's a tradeoff. While less power is required at lower frequencies, you also get an increasing amount of interference from electrical sources. Lightning, electric motors, and other electrical devices will cause interference. On the analog, it would look like various noise patterns. On the digital... let's just say, it's not pleasant.

2) WTAE is digital 51, PSIP mapped to 4.1. When they implement the new Channel 22 I assume it will also be mapped to 4.1. Will it have a new call sign?

I don't know at this point. It likely will not have a unique call sign, but I don't know about the mapping. Some receivers freak out if you have two stations mapping to the same virtual channel number. Someone at the station would have to tell you, and even they may not have figured it out yet.

BTW. Thanks again for your great RabbitEars site. I know it must be laborous keeping up with all the changes. Just a note to indicate that as you probably know WPXI has dropped 11.2 Weather and moved RTN to 11.2 (from 11.3).

Eep, I thought I'd fixed that. It's definitely corrected now; thanks for the tip. :)

And I'm glad you enjoy it. While it is a lot of work, I enjoy keeping up with it.

- Trip

Not a trace of WJAC here where I am in Greene County. I always received WJAC on analog.

I'm only 20 some miles from their transmitter, and the best my equipment can obtain shows the signal bar barely making it to the threshold of a watchable signal.

2) WTAE is digital 51, PSIP mapped to 4.1. When they implement the new Channel 22 I assume it will also be mapped to 4.1. Will it have a new call sign?

When WJAC fired up their translator in State College, it mapped to 6-1, 6-2, and 6-3. The official call letters would probably be WTAE-LD, but on the air they'd probably use WTAE-DT and WTAE-WX as 51 uses.

When WJAC fired up their translator in State College, it mapped to 6-1, 6-2, and 6-3. The official call letters would probably be WTAE-LD, but on the air they'd probably use WTAE-DT and WTAE-WX as 51 uses.

The FCC has said that fill-in translators will not have separate call signs. It will be considered part of WTAE-DT.

That said, their application is listed as W22DP-D.

I'm not sure that they'll be mapping to 4-1 due to the massive amounts of overlap. We'll have to wait and see what happens, or ask someone who knows.

- Trip

I'm not sure that they'll be mapping to 4-1 due to the massive amounts of overlap. We'll have to wait and see what happens, or ask someone who knows.

That's a non issue. Most TVs either allow both stations mapped to multiple 4.1 listings. It's a little annoying until you remove the spare channel, but not exactly the end of the world. From what I've seen, virtualization on most TVs handles the issue of channel overlap well.

That's a non issue. Most TVs either allow both stations mapped to multiple 4.1 listings. It's a little annoying until you remove the spare channel, but not exactly the end of the world. From what I've seen, virtualization on most TVs handles the issue of channel overlap well.

It should be a non-issue, but there are tuners out there that will freak out looking at a situation like that. We'll have to see what happens.

- Trip

Trip and inundated,

I passed on your info and link about WTAE to Rob Owen (PG). He was not aware of the approval and said that a month ago WTAE said that economic conditions would slow down this effort. He said that he would check with them again and publish reports on his Q & A website.

WPMY's and WPGH's analog signals have been shut down as per a Sinclair rule that had their stations running the Nightlight service conclude broadcasting.

Crap, wish I had known that, wonder if they did anything, or like WQEX, just turned it off.

According to WWCP's coverage map (http://fox8tv.com/dev/map.html), the entire county of Allegheny is in their coverage area. However, that may be their analog coverage map. Still it would be nice if they would make an attempt to have the same level and quality of coverage that they had prior to the transition, instead of just using the transitoin as a way to cut costs. I mean, if their costs are so hard on them that they have to transmit at a lower power/smaller radius and consequently cut out a lot of their viewers, why not just shut down alltogether?

Unfortunately, that is WWCP's map from when they were transmitting pre-transition at 1000 kw on UHF. I was able to pick them up most days then, depending on the weather, but their lower power VHF signal is too weak here. My receiver shows an extremely weak signal for WWCP on 8, but it can't lock in on it, which is similar to what happens with WTAE here in northeastern Allegheny County.

According to WWCP's coverage map (http://fox8tv.com/dev/map.html), the entire county of Allegheny is in their coverage area. However, that may be their analog coverage map. Still it would be nice if they would make an attempt to have the same level and quality of coverage that they had prior to the transition, instead of just using the transitoin as a way to cut costs. I mean, if their costs are so hard on them that they have to transmit at a lower power/smaller radius and consequently cut out a lot of their viewers, why not just shut down alltogether?

While they DID have the choice of staying on 29 or returning to 8, the FCC set the allowable power levels. I'm sure they would go with more power (15 Kw would be a nice boost) if the FCC would allow. Like so many other stations choosing VHF operations, it will be interesting to see how the theoretical reception matches with real world results. The biggest problem I see is so many OTA viewers have installed UHF antennas expecting that's where all the DTV action was going to be.
I'm in Johnstown, about 20 miles from the WWCP tower and had major problems picking up the ch 29 signal due to multipath. Ch 8 is a little easier to receive, but is still prone to multipath. That's just a function of my location. Once spring arrives for certain (not the teasingly nice weather of this weekend), I'll be on the roof again working on my antenna system to address the multipath issues.

Ch 8 is a little easier to receive, but is still prone to multipath. That's just a function of my location. Once spring arrives for certain (not the teasingly nice weather of this weekend), I'll be on the roof again working on my antenna system to address the multipath issues.

I hear you on the multipath issue...tuned to WWCP the signal meter on my CECBs and DTV oscillates from high to low like crazy which kills me. Even if it were a very low/weak signal, if it would just stay stable, that would be better that the jumping.

I'm actually gonna be getting a new antenna and setup once the final transition occurs in June. I'm thinking about going with one of the CM Crossfires...so that I can try to pick up that WWCP signal (one of my family and my favorite channels on the dial). I would have been able to do it sooner had they stuck with February. grr....

Another kicker...I was over at someones house tonight who has comcast digital cable, and I noticed they get the same pixelation and dropout on some of their channels that we get OTA...one reason I dropped digital cable over 10 years ago...the pixelation drove me nuts. Now that OTA is going all digital we all have to suffer it, though I take comfort in knowing that unlike the OTA-ers, everyone else is paying $50+ a month for it. :D

Mainy:I'm in the Richland area of Johnstown.Have had a CM 4228 on the roof for about two and 1/2 years now.Well pleased with the reach I'm receiving.Get all Pitts.channels,and also channel 9 out of Stubenville,with a fairly strong analog signal,but with a little herringbone in the picture.I assume it being mulipath, maybe from Altoona 10,as I cannot scan to receive the digital [57]on 9 . The picture on Analog is just as good as channel 13 PBS analog in Pitts. which I receive at 58% digital signal..... your Thoughts!

Mainy:I'm in the Richland area of Johnstown.Have had a CM 4228 on the roof for about two and 1/2 years now.Well pleased with the reach I'm receiving.Get all Pitts.channels,and also channel 9 out of Stubenville,with a fairly strong analog signal,but with a little herringbone in the picture.I assume it being mulipath, maybe from Altoona 10,as I cannot scan to receive the digital [57]on 9 . The picture on Analog is just as good as channel 13 PBS analog in Pitts. which I receive at 58% digital signal..... your Thoughts!

I'm not surprised at your reception. You have a few hundred more feet of altitude over my location in Brownstown, plus some additional distance to allow signals over the top of Laurel Mountain. It will be interesting to see if you will be able to pull WPCW 11 when they finally sign on. Also, WDTV 5, WTRF 7 and WTOV 9 may very well be possible for you. How well do you do with WTAJ, WATM, and WPSU?

(cross posting to the Johnstown thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15996395#post15996395))

Woah, KDKA is broadcasting national news in HD. Is this new or am I completely oblivious?

Woah, KDKA is broadcasting national news in HD. Is this new or am I completely oblivious?

They did a few months ago, then switched back to SD. I recall that they were having some issue with Dolby processing when broadcasting the news in HD. There were also some problems with picture quality - have those cleared up?

Woah, KDKA is broadcasting national news in HD. Is this new or am I completely oblivious?

They went back to airing the CBS Evening News on the weekend at 16:9 a few weeks back; however, the weekday evening news was still 4:3.

Woah, KDKA is broadcasting national news in HD. Is this new or am I completely oblivious?

They broadcast CBS News in HD on weekends only because they don't have to record it.

During the week, they pre-empt the newscast by one-half hour to broadcast their local news until 7PM, and consequently it appears they can't afford the proper equiptment to record the network newscasts in HD.

Pretty pathetic for a CBS owned and operated station isn't it?

That's odd.

Any idea on why one is broadcast in HD and not the other? I would have thought if they could do one in HD, they could do the other...

That's odd.

Any idea on why one is broadcast in HD and not the other? I would have thought if they could do one in HD, they could do the other...

Live network feeds can be fed as is (in HD), but the recording and playback equipment for network feeds is not yet converted to HD. The weeknight CBS News is recorded at 6:30 and played back at 7:00.
It's not as simple as plugging an HD capable recorder into the control room. Essentially the entire broadcast facility must be converted to HD to permit HD playback of recorded material. The latest word is KDKA will have everything installed before the June 12 analog shutdown.

It's not as simple as plugging an HD capable recorder into the control room. Essentially the entire broadcast facility must be converted to HD to permit HD playback of recorded material. The latest word is KDKA will have everything installed before the June 12 analog shutdown.

It should also be noted that KDKA did try doing the 7 pm in HD, and it was glitchy beyond being watchable.

Live network feeds can be fed as is (in HD), but the recording and playback equipment for network feeds is not yet converted to HD. The weeknight CBS News is recorded at 6:30 and played back at 7:00.
It's not as simple as plugging an HD capable recorder into the control room. Essentially the entire broadcast facility must be converted to HD to permit HD playback of recorded material. The latest word is KDKA will have everything installed before the June 12 analog shutdown.
Interesting. I would never have guessed that the weekend news was live and the weekday news was on tape delay. Thanks for info!

If KDKA wants, they can borrow my laptop. It records and plays back raw HD streams losslessly and without a hicup.

I kid. I kid. :)
An entire TV studio is certainly more complicated than a single computer. Though with each passing month, my impatience is causing me to lean farther toward a less favorable view of KDKA's technical competence or management priorities.

I don't really have much of a yardstick other than the other stations in our market though. Maybe KDKA's upgrade schedule is reasonable. Its just that any night that I watch news on KDKA, I think wow this looks like crap. I'm so conditioned to HD that I can't bring myself to watch a SD newscast. Hopefully this isn't taken as an attack on KDKA or its employees. Really I'm just thinking aloud, sharing my eagerness to have KDKA and CBS news in HD.

HA HA! You city folks are easily spoiled! :eek: So far since October I have been able to get KDKA a total of two times during band openings. And no, I'm not moving from here until they carry me out of here in a horizontal position. So cheer up, you could be living 40+ miles out as I do.

Did something change at WPGH channel 53.1 last week (maybe at the same time they dropped the analog infomercials and went off the air completely). All of a sudden my reception has gone to pot for 53.1. I am only using a cheap indoor antenna, but was receiving it just fine until last week. Now the signal is completely choppy, with signal strength dropping to zero quite often.

Also, at BB (where I work) I had 3 customers come in yesterday asking for a better antenna because of the exact same issue. Two were in Bellevue and one on the Northside.

If KDKA wants, they can borrow my laptop. It records and plays back raw HD streams losslessly and without a hicup.

Or they could trim a half-hour off their three-hour-long block of news. By 6:30, haven't they gone through it all? :D

Did something change at WPGH channel 53.1 last week (maybe at the same time they dropped the analog infomercials and went off the air completely).

I'm actually getting a better signal now at 8/10 bars than before when it was 6-8/10 bars.

anyone know why WWCP is advertizing that they stopped their analog broadcast back on Feb 17th and that you need a digital receiver/CECB or cable/satellite to receive it? it's not part of a nightlite program, it's on their digital (8-1) broadcast...so if you're seeing it you already have what you need to receive it.

FCC requirement.

- Trip

Did something change at WPGH channel 53.1 last week (maybe at the same time they dropped the analog infomercials and went off the air completely). All of a sudden my reception has gone to pot for 53.1. I am only using a cheap indoor antenna, but was receiving it just fine until last week. Now the signal is completely choppy, with signal strength dropping to zero quite often.

Also, at BB (where I work) I had 3 customers come in yesterday asking for a better antenna because of the exact same issue. Two were in Bellevue and one on the Northside.

The WPGH signal for me dropped from a good signal running about 75% to 40-45% some time in the last few weeks. Anything we try to DVR is hit or miss on WPGH anymore and a lot of times we end up having to watch shows via other means.

WTOV-TV intends to cease analog broadcasting on April 16 at 12:30 p.m, which is before the nationwide deadline on June 12, 2009.
__________________

WBGN-LP has filed an STA to operate their digital signal on channel 16. I'd guess that means they're looking to sign it on soon.

- Trip

The Bruno Goodworth Network [WBGN] Does not list the type of programing. Do you happen to have any Information on them Trip ?

Never mind... I did a quick Google on them and found my answer"Community broadcasting". Bruno [owner] use to work at the Wheeling station,I understand .

WBGN has a website. http://www.wbgn.com/

Hopefully that'll help.

- Trip

Anyone else having reception issues today? I normally get all the locals (except 4), Johnstown, and Youngstown. Today getting only 2 and 13, and 11 sporatically. Is there some kind of atmospheric disturbance going on? :confused:

What kind of power out put will WBGN-LP run?

15 kW, the maximum for a low-powered digital station.

- Trip

15 kW, the maximum for a low-powered digital station.

- Trip



That may be to weak to pu here.

Did something change at WPGH channel 53.1 last week (maybe at the same time they dropped the analog infomercials and went off the air completely). All of a sudden my reception has gone to pot for 53.1. I am only using a cheap indoor antenna, but was receiving it just fine until last week. Now the signal is completely choppy, with signal strength dropping to zero quite often.

Also, at BB (where I work) I had 3 customers come in yesterday asking for a better antenna because of the exact same issue. Two were in Bellevue and one on the Northside.

The WPGH signal for me dropped from a good signal running about 75% to 40-45% some time in the last few weeks. Anything we try to DVR is hit or miss on WPGH anymore and a lot of times we end up having to watch shows via other means.

Tried 53 last night around 8PM and nothing, the signal was 0%. All my other channels are just fine. It's just 53.1 & .2 that have completely flatlined on my TV directly and through my D* boxes.

Well something very big changed at WPGH tonight. They aren't working.

I was so looking forward to dollhouse this week since last week's was so good. That's kinda hard to do when you get 15 seconds of choppy SD video and then nothing for a few minutes straight.

Maybe they shut off analog too soon :(

I saw that during Terminator. luckily I was able to switch over to WWCP. the funny thing is the signal strength on WPGH was fine and you could see their logo in the corner...it was almost as if they were losing the program feed or there was a short in their player or something.

I saw that during Terminator. luckily I was able to switch over to WWCP. the funny thing is the signal strength on WPGH was fine and you could see their logo in the corner...it was almost as if they were losing the program feed or there was a short in their player or something.

I saw the same thing last night form 53 and the LOGO was in the right corner MEANING that the digital signal was OK to US from 53 but sombody at 53 goofed OR the satelitefeed from Fox itself was bad. It started during terminator but was REALLY bad at 8:30 during Doll House. I tried Fox 8 , but with their measly signal now I had NO bars at all.I gave up at 8:30 altogether and turned the tv off. Hope this DOES NOT HAPPEN MONDAY DURING "24" or HOUSE.:mad:Can you even imagine if this happened on the "Great" KD during basketball how the switchboard would light up. Moral to the story- they SHOULD have keep the original date to sign off Analong and MAYBEE everybody would have got their act in gear.Really Frustrating!!

The funny thing is, the other HD Fox affiliate I get via satellite is a Sinclair station as well but they had no issues last night.

Well, I just watched Terminator from last Friday nite (from my TiVo) and it did look like a network feed problem. Started at 8:34 and went to 8:44. Picture would go black for 45-50 seconds, then come back with a shrunken image (bars top/bottom/sides) but with the 53 Logo in the proper place. That would last for 5 seconds, then repeat again. What a pain.

I haven't watched Dollhouse yet, but I guess you're telling me I'll see the same thing there.:(

Well, I just finished watching Dollhouse from last Friday and it was pure garbage. One half hour of blanks screen with a few seconds of programming every now and then.

next I'm going to watch Monday's 24. It better not still be happening. It is one thing to mess with Terminator, and another thing to ruin Dollhouse. But they better not be messing with 24. That would far exceed my tolerance level.

I just read on WTAE's website that we may be losing their signal here in the Allegheny River Valley on June 12th. :mad: I guess that means they've scrapped their plans to put up a translator to cover the area.

Read the story here: http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/station/19055547/detail.html

JRM01,

If it turns out to be garbage, you can catch Monday's episode here:

http://www.hulu.com/watch/65203/24-1100-pm---1200-am#s-p1-so-i0

Every once in a while I miss the day and date premiere of a new episode, but then catch up via Hulu.

Did WQED move their digital to 13?

I did a scan this morning, and I'm still getting weak signals on 26 and 38.

Did WQED move their digital to 13?


Any sign of analog 13 or did they already shut that down?

From their last Form 387 filing, they had anticipated remaining on 38 until around 5/1.


WQED-DT WILL CONTINUE BROADCASTING ON CHANNEL 38 UNTIL PROGRAM TESTING ON CHANNEL 13 IS COMPLETED. AT THAT TIME WE WILL CUT OVER TO CHANNEL 13. ALSO AT THAT TIME, WE WILL CUT OVER WQEX-DT FROM CHANNEL 26 TO CHANNEL 38. WE EXPECT TO COMPLETE THESE OPERATIONS BY MAY 1, 2009.

However, this was based on a 2/17 analog end date.

I just read on WTAE's website that we may be losing their signal here in the Allegheny River Valley on June 12th. :mad: I guess that means they've scrapped their plans to put up a translator to cover the area.

Read the story here: http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/station/19055547/detail.html

They are required to issue that warning. And they still plan to build a translator on channel 22. The Construction Permit and Special Temporary Authority applications (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=732291&formid=911&q_num=5200) are pending at the FCC.
No idea how soon they'll get FCC's blessing, not how long it will take to install everything. The transmitter will be housed at WQED's tower, so one would guess they will have to coordinate work with QED.

Any sign of analog 13 or did they already shut that down?

It went poof. At the right spot I'm getting a very weak analog NBC station from somewhere. Otherwise, noise and static.

From their last Form 387 filing, they had anticipated remaining on 38 until around 5/1.

Hmm. I had read an article saying they might flash cut to 13 today. Oh, well. It's understandable considering they have to move WQEX to 38, shutdown WQEX-DT on 26 and move WQED to 13 and then deal with the analog transmitters.

Well, I just finished watching Dollhouse from last Friday and it was pure garbage. One half hour of blanks screen with a few seconds of programming every now and then.

next I'm going to watch Monday's 24. It better not still be happening. It is one thing to mess with Terminator, and another thing to ruin Dollhouse. But they better not be messing with 24. That would far exceed my tolerance level.

Yup, I had to watch terminator and Dollhouse on Hulu.

Terminator was almost worst because I got 34 minutes into the episode and right when everything was starting to heat up it started flipping out on me. I just deleted it right then and there because I knew Dollhouse had glitched as well.

I didn't watch much of Dollhouse before I gave up on it because I started it about 20 minutes late and a friend text messaged me that his feed was out. So I checked my live feed to confirm and just quit there. Between my move to my new house and the changes in channel 8's signal, I can't get WWCP anymore.

More bad news folks.

From the Pittsburgh Radio & TV Online website:

http://www.pbrtv.com/blog/index.html

Legislature pushes for another DTV transition delay

By Tom Lavery
National News: Just when you thought that the transition to digital TV would finally take place by June 12th, you might want to sit down. According to sources in Washington, both leaders in the U.S. House and Senate are looking at ways to delay the DTV transition AGAIN until December 25th. Yes folks, December 25th is Christmas believe it or not. The legislation could also force all TV stations who have already converted to digital to convert back to analog until December 25 because as one house member said "TV station owners are just like kids, they just couldn't wait until Christmas to make the switch. So that's their problem to switch back, not ours." I mean come on, enough is enough as far as I'm concerned. Do we really need to extend the DTV transition ANY LONGER?!? Thanks to PBRTV reader Josh Kiddenya for this breaking news update.

Yeah, I really don't believe that. It's clearly an April fools joke.

Yeah, I really don't believe that. It's clearly an April fools joke.

I thought about that too.

It's a dumb and stupid joke if it is.

It's a dumb and stupid joke if it is.

"Thanks to PBRTV reader Josh Kiddenya for this breaking news update." Josh? Kiddenya? It's a joke.

April Fool's Day should be abolished. Half the internet ceases to be readable or useful for a whole day. It's annoying and few if any of the jokes are even mildly humorous.

It went poof. At the right spot I'm getting a very weak analog NBC station from somewhere. Otherwise, noise and static.

Hmm... the nearest NBC on 13 I'm aware of is a translator for WJAC in State College, but that's pretty weak. I'm not sure what it is you're seeing.

- Trip

"Thanks to PBRTV reader Josh Kiddenya for this breaking news update." Josh? Kiddenya? It's a joke.

April Fool's Day should be abolished. Half the internet ceases to be readable or useful for a whole day. It's annoying and few if any of the jokes are even mildly humorous.

Didn't even pay attention to the name MeowMeow.

That posting isn't even mildly "funny".

It means a lot to the people who pay attention to this stuff given the first deadline was already pushed back.

Hmm... the nearest NBC on 13 I'm aware of is a translator for WJAC in State College, but that's pretty weak. I'm not sure what it is you're seeing.

I had to put it in just the right spot. And it's gone now.

That posting isn't even mildly "funny". It means a lot to the people who pay attention to this stuff given the first deadline was already pushed back.

Indeed. I abhor April Fool's Day. There really doesn't need to be a holiday for humorless people to pretend they're awesome by pissing everyone off ad nauseum.

At the least, Apirl Fool's Day should be like the leap day -- once every four years.

Did WQED move their digital to 13?

Not yet. Their digital transition program said that it would take them possibly until August 18 to make the switch.

Hmm... the nearest NBC on 13 I'm aware of is a translator for WJAC in State College, but that's pretty weak.

That channel 13 is now an independent station known as "Pennsylvania Channel 13 (http://www.pachannel13.com/)" with the calls WSCP-CA (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=WSCP-CA).

Not yet. Their digital transition program said that it would take them possibly until August 18 to make the switch.

Wow. Everyone's got a different date.

I'm looking forward to WQED going to VHF 13, because it will mean less need to use the rotator to lock WPSU. I'm betting that since I get a weak signal from WTRF most days and a solid signal from WWCP (8 is the worst VHF-hi for the CM 4228), that WQED should be solid on 13. Right now it's marginal on 38.

No fun.

Is anyone having a problem with WQED today, we can receive them with 80 signal strength but do not pick up any broadcast?

anyone else notice how the dolby digital with KDKA channel 2 is completely screwed up and has been for going on 2 weeks now?

Is anyone having a problem with WQED today, we can receive them with 80 signal strength but do not pick up any broadcast?

Yes. Same here. Good signal strength on ch 38 (WQED-DT) but no program this afternoon. Programming has returned as of 8:45pm. Noted that Greensburg Comcast also had no WQED signal when the ch 38 signal was off. Comcast probably got their feed from the OTA TV signal. Suspect major technical glitch at WQED.

Also, NO (or extremely weak) signal on ch 13. Analog has been off the air since at least 4/2 and probably 4/1, but digital has no come on ch 13 as it was supposed to, at least not in Delmont or Greensburg.

4/3 am there was a message about the DTV transition that mentioned 8/18 as a new date for final transition, but no explanation was given for the new date or the lack of ch 13 signal.

Rob Owen (P-G TV editor) told me that he had Ch 13 in Pittsburgh, so maybe it is extremely low power output.

NM3A

WQED has always maintained it would take 3 months after the termination of the analog before DT-13 signed on the air. They have to replace antennas and whatnot, and that requires a tower crew, which has to be scheduled and brought in. The August 18 date is when they plan to have all of that done and the signal moved from 38 to 13.

- Trip

Just noticed that WQEX lost programming on ch 26. It had been working fine while ch 38 was down. Maybe WQED/X are installing new equipment.

WQED has always maintained it would take 3 months after the termination of the analog before DT-13 signed on the air. They have to replace antennas and whatnot, and that requires a tower crew, which has to be scheduled and brought in. The August 18 date is when they plan to have all of that done and the signal moved from 38 to 13.

- Trip

Too bad they don't make it more obvious on their web site. They imply on there that the 38>13 move will happen immediately. I am surprised that they need to change antennas. They had a perfectly good (it seemed anyway) ch 13 antenna that was working right up thru 3/31. Wouldn't seem to difficult to simply patch the DTV signal thru the transmitters. Even if new transmitters are needed, that would not seem to be a big deal to get done. As WQEX is taking over channel 38, it would seem that all that needs to be done is remove the ch 26 antenna and equipment eventually.

WWCP (FOX 8 in Johnstown, PA) did just that without a glitch on Feb 17.

Not really a huge deal if it won't happen until 8/18, but I was planning on using their ch 13 signal to tweak some home brew Yagis for ch 13. Some neighbors are in tough locations and I am building 10 element Yagis for them to put in the attic. They are getting DB-8's for outside for the UHF parts.
So, it's just going to take a lot longer to get that part working right.

Dan

I've been told that some older antennas had notched out the frequencies not used for audio, video, and color. Since the ATSC signal needs to be even across the 6 MHz, some stations cannot recycle their antennas.

Or maybe it's just old and they want to replace the whole system. :)

- Trip

The question is whether August is a hard date for WQED, or just a not-later-than date. Or perhaps an aspirational date.

I can't imagine if they don't run into too many difficulties that they wouldn't want to do the transition sooner, especially with the analog channel gone.

Interesting fact about WQED's final DTV signal: WQED will be one of the few channels projected to improve its coverage area by going digital.

http://www.wqed.org/tv/digitaltv.php this might explain the problem,as they have gone to the transition April 1st..

http://www.wqed.org/tv/digitaltv.php this might explain the problem,as they have gone to the transition April 1st..

The only thing that announcement clarifies is that they have turned off analog. The timing of their move of the digital signal from RF 38 to RF 13 is still unclear. Not only do they have to swap out antennas and transmitters, with WTAE's new ch 22 translator being hosted on the WQED tower, there will be quite a bit of activity in a rather confined space over the next few months.

Not only do they have to swap out antennas and transmitters, with WTAE's new ch 22 translator being hosted on the WQED tower, there will be quite a bit of activity in a rather confined space over the next few months.

It will be Interesting to see what's in store in the weeks ahead.As the 13 analog shutdown caused a drop in signal on digital 4 to 7 % with 13-1-2-3 [nothing on 16...zillch] had increases in the signals from WTAE,KDKA,And WPGH to almost 85-90, from an average of about 70%... stay's there all day so no tropo increase.....The other"Old MAN" on the hill

I probably mentioned before on this site that I work part-time at BB. Today I had a lady come in to buy a Transformer so she could keep getting all the analog channels that she currently has. After lengthy discussion she said she had an LCD TV with an analog and digital tuner and was using a $39 RCA amplified antenna. I tried to explain the situation to her, but she was adament that there were "transformers" that would allow her to keep getting her analog stations.

Here's the best part. She was adament that with her $39 indoor antenna she currently gets "over 200" channels. No matter what I told her, she was adament that I was wrong. She said that she was on the tenth floor of a downtown apartment building and she got over 200 channels, using only this antenna.

After 20 minutes of discussion I told her to go to Radio Shack.

that brings up a good question...I wonder what the most OTA channels is that anyone's ever picked up (with an outdoor antenna and rotator)?

by the way I forgot, what station are we waiting on to vacate so that the CW can start their digital broadcast?

WPXI.

- Trip

She was adament that with her $39 indoor antenna she currently gets "over 200" channels.

That's some DXing location. :D

She said that she was on the tenth floor of a downtown apartment building and she got over 200 channels, using only this antenna.

I've heard similar stories. One of her neighbors up there on the 10th floor probably has extra TVs hooked up to their cable using the old-style flat 300-ohm TV antenna wire. The unshielded wire might be broadcasting a signal that is strong enough for her to pick up in the next apartment, just a few feet away.

I heard a story (unconfirmed) about a guy in Philadelphia who hooked up extra TVs in an apartment building using speaker wire. It was supposedly broadcasting a signal that was strong enough to interfere with jet airliners that got near enough to the building while descending for landing at a nearby airport. Comcast was fined big-time by the F.C.C. from what I was told.

After 20 minutes of discussion I told her to go to Radio Shack.

Gee, thanks. :rolleyes:

As if we don't get our fair share of confused DTV antenna customers at "The Shack." I'll let you know if I see her. ;)

Is WPGH 53.1 off the air now. I can't seem to get a signal anymore?

Is WPGH 53.1 off the air now. I can't seem to get a signal anymore?

It's coming in fine here in Salem.

[QUOTE=nwiser;16227149]that brings up a good question...I wonder what the most OTA channels is that anyone's ever picked up (with an outdoor antenna and rotator)?

The following stations are received by a roof-top antenna [CM 4228] with rotor at Richland section of Johnstown... [north] .WATM,WKBS,WTAJ,WPSU.... And west.. WPCB,WNPA,WJAC,WWCP,KDKA,WPMY,WPXI,WQED,WQEX,WTAE,WPGH,and hope to receive 9- Wtoy- Stubensville?? after the transition .All stations listed come in steady with no drop-outs except WQEX which I can live without

Is WPGH 53.1 off the air now. I can't seem to get a signal anymore?

I didn't notice any problems yesterday at that time.

Did rescan it is now fine.

Hi all,

I'm still finding my way around this site, and came across this section last week. The most impressing thing about this thread is that the beginning of the discussion was some seven years ago! :eek:

I don't think any of the talk here will affect me much (being a former satellite customer, and now on Verizon FiOS), but I'm trying to learn what's going on for my mom's sake. She has your basic TV setup, and she has a couple converter boxes purchased...but complains about the quality (pixel breakup, sound cutting out, etc). It looks like WPCW 19 still isn't set up for digital playback, as that is the one local channel she doesn't get via the converters.

I also have a few PCs that I use, and purchased a Pinnacle USB TV receiver for my laptop. It can locate the channels farther away (Stubenville, Youngstown, Johnstown) but can't pick up the signal.

My questions: For the first topic (my mom's TVs), is there anyone that has an updated status like is shown on page one of this thread showing the PGH channels status? For the second topic (Pinnacle adapter), once June 12 arrives, will this change at all?

Many thanks,
-Ed S

You best bet is to start with this link:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

It'll show you what kind of antenna will likely pull in which stations at your mom's address.

[QUOTE=nwiser;16227149]that brings up a good question...I wonder what the most OTA channels is that anyone's ever picked up (with an outdoor antenna and rotator)?

The following stations are received by a roof-top antenna [CM 4228] with rotor at Richland section of Johnstown... [north] .WATM,WKBS,WTAJ,WPSU.... And west.. WPCB,WNPA,WJAC,WWCP,KDKA,WPMY,WPXI,WQED,WQEX,WTAE,WPGH,and hope to receive 9- Wtoy- Stubensville?? after the transition .All stations listed come in steady with no drop-outs except WQEX which I can live without
How strong is your signal strength on WTAE and KDKA? I receive WJAC about 70% all the time. Sorry to say you probably will not receive WTOV when they go VHF with a 9KW outpower. I would like to receive 9 also , but my 273 WEST direction is being blocked by about 15 houses on the next higher street.:(

WTOV is going to use 23kw when they switch Thursday.

[QUOTE=upzdayzm;16245470]
How strong is your signal strength on WTAE and KDKA? I receive WJAC about 70% all the time. Sorry to say you probably will not receive WTOV when they go VHF with a 9KW outpower. I would like to receive 9 also , but my 273 WEST direction is being blocked by about 15 houses on the next higher street.:(

KDKA-WTAE- Both come in about 80 to 85% steady....I'll Have to check WTOV Thursday if they are making that day the transition day!

US DTV/TV Spreadsheet.

Kudos to Girard Westerberg at http://www.dxfm.com/ for making a nice little DTV Excel spreadsheet.

For his efforts---we give thanks!!!

Works pretty simply. Figure out your EXACT latitude and longitude. Google Earth http://earth.google.com/download-earth.html helps make that process very simple.

Google Earth give you this information by default in Degrees, Minutes and Seconds. Use the wonderful Latitude/Longitude converter http://www.fcc.gov/mb/audio/bickel/DDDMMSS-decimal.html to give you your exact Latitude and Longitude.

Place that information in cell V2 and W2, respectively.

Use the custom sort feature to sort column I (Distance) from Lowest to Highest (closest to farthest from YOUR location).

Wahlah---you have all the DTV info you need (Channel number, call letters, power output, azimuth, etc.)

The link for the spreadsheet is http://www.dxfm.com/Database/DTV%20USA.zip.

It is a zip file so you will have to use a zip utility to unzip it.

WTOV is going to use 23kw when they switch Thursday.

Thanks firemantom for the information, I receiced my 9kw info from www.dtv.gov . I guess they have outdated information.:)

I'm receiving WTOV-DT here in Westmoreland County with my set registering 1/10 bars.

I'm receiving WTOV-DT here in Westmoreland County with my set registering 1/10 bars.

JK: Scanned for WTOV an hour after their shutoff at 1:30pm [was receiving great Analog picture at 12:00 noon]... Nothing came in as expected, on the CM 4228 ...Got WTRF's three channels on a tropo though.

Only a slight sniff of WTOV. Nothing even close to lockable. Tuner is just sort of aware something might be there. Of course, I'm almost 100 mi away from it, so... Using CM 4228 w/pre-amp and rotator.

Supposed to have a bit of tropo the next couple days. Good warm up tomorrow could bode well.

I'm receiving WTOV-DT here in Westmoreland County with my set registering 1/10 bars.

What kind of antenna are you using?

What kind of antenna are you using?

Radio Shack VU-110

The signal has improved since that posting.

WPCB has been running a crawl announcing that as of tomorrow, they will be shutting down their analog transmitter.

Thanks firemantom for the information, I receiced my 9kw info from www.dtv.gov . I guess they have outdated information.:)


No problem

According to information stated in WTOV newscasts yesterday, they are still hoping for FCC approval of their power increase request which would help with reception in problem areas.

:)According to information stated in WTOV newscasts yesterday, they are still hoping for FCC approval of their power increase request which would help with reception in problem areas.

Friday night at 11:00 PM I was able to lock onto 9.1 and 9.2 with signal reading in the bad area using a VHF-UHF combo small roof antenna that I had set up in the living room. The picture came and gone. Today I went up on roof with the same antenna and tuner and walked the roof and had a hint of a signal but it would not lock on at all. If I had just a little more signal from WTOV I'm sure it would lock on. Since I was up there, VHF 8.1 and 8.2 came in steady around 50%. I hope that the feds will give 9 a tweek more signal?:rolleyes:

Radio Shack VU-110

The signal has improved since that posting.

That antenna looks the same as my Channel master. I would even be prepared to buy a "Monster" Winegard if I knew it would bring in 9.

As of two weeks ago I've actually lost WWCP...and for the entire month of March it was coming in perfectly. I guess it could have been due to the weather, though I thought reception was supposed to get better when it got warmer, not worse.

:mad::)According to information stated in WTOV newscasts yesterday, they are still hoping for FCC approval of their power increase request which would help with reception in problem areas.

I emailed Don Fogle at WTOV dFogle@WTOV and he told me that they are still waiting on a request for 23KW from the feds. He didn't say if they are presently 9KW or not. So you guys that received WTOV analog before,might want to e mail him with your own situation.The government runs slow,so this might not happen before fall.

Did anyone notice that the CBS evening news was in HD? Hopefully KD has figured out their problem. Be sure to tune in tonight to see if they make it 2 in a row!

Did anyone notice that the CBS evening news was in HD? Hopefully KD has figured out their problem. Be sure to tune in tonight to see if they make it 2 in a row!

It didn't have the weird sparkles either. I caught KDKA while flipping around.

And, today is great day for all regional HDness, as WJAC now has their local news in HD. So, now that the hillbillies are going HD, maybe KDKA and CBS might feel some pressure.

Did anyone notice that the CBS evening news was in HD? Hopefully KD has figured out their problem. Be sure to tune in tonight to see if they make it 2 in a row!

Unless they stopped for awhile, I noticed it in 16:9 back at the beginning of the month.

And, today is great day for all regional HDness, as WJAC now has their local news in HD. So, now that the hillbillies are going HD, maybe KDKA and CBS might feel some pressure.

We here in the Johnstown area are not Hillbillies, I'll have you know! we are Rednecks!!!! Ask J.M.

It didn't have the weird sparkles either. I caught KDKA while flipping around.

And, today is great day for all regional HDness, as WJAC now has their local news in HD. So, now that the hillbillies are going HD, maybe KDKA and CBS might feel some pressure.

Got to see WJAC TV news in HD this weekend. Looks good , glad to see these improvements. Keep up the good work WJAC.:)

We here in the Johnstown area are not Hillbillies, I'll have you know! we are Rednecks!!!! Ask J.M.

I stand corrected. My apologies to all those toothless folks clinging to their guns and their Bibles. Ah, I really don't miss the election and the circus of pointless non-discourse that accompanies it.

- - -

Small note on WJAC. Most of their video we've decided in the Johnstown thread is up-sampled. Not a biggie, but worth noting.

Flipping through the channels, I've noticed that WPCB now is broadcasting the same programming on 40-1, 40-2, and 40-3. Does anyone know what their future plans are for these extra channels that they have recently added?

Flipping through the channels, I've noticed that WPCB now is broadcasting the same programming on 40-1, 40-2, and 40-3. Does anyone know what their future plans are for these extra channels that they have recently added?

Separate channels for Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

(Just punched my ticket to hell.... :) )

I recall reading on another regional thread (can't remember which one at the moment) that another religious station was subleasing subchannels to other religious networks.

Update:
I searched the forums and found several instances of religious stations carving their signals four, five, or six ways.
Portland, OR (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7866269#post7866269)
Rochester, MN (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12096070#post12096070)
Indianapolis, IN (http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=10253#station)
Scranton, PA (http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=station_search&callsign=64690#station) (I think the Scranton-Wilkes Barre thread was where I read about this originally.)

Bottom line, I guess is this is more common than we realize.
And if you have no plans to do any HD, running multiple subs does make business sense.

I recall reading on another regional thread (can't remember which one at the moment) that another religious station was subleasing subchannels to other religious networks.

Whatever it will be, it's probably not going to deviate too far from the station's mission.