Pittsburgh, PA - OTA [Text View] - Page 16

MeowMeow

05-31-09, 10:52 PM

How do you have your cm4228 setup and are you pleased with it.

My setup is the last US model CM4228, with a CM 7777 pre-amp and a rotator. I'm using quad-shield RG-6, but I would advise against using quad-shield between the pre-amp and the antenna itself (quad-shield flexes poorly, and causes major problems if it gets deformed and starts snagging). The antenna is wall mounted 32' above the ground on the south-facing side of the house.

I'm 60 mi NE of Pittsburgh. My house is at 1210' and the hill I am on rise 200' gradually and is between me and everything except WPSU.

I get rock solid signal all the time on KDKA (25), WPXI (48), WPGH (43), WWCP (8), WJAC (34), WPSU (15). I get semi-regular reception on WQED (38), WTAE (51), WPMY (42), WKBN (27) and WFMJ (21). After the final analog shutdown, I anticipate solid reception on WQED (13) and WPCW (11). WTAJ (32) and WATM (24) have some local multipath issue that the 4228 just can't handle. I also receive WTOV and WTRF when conditions are right.

Am I happy with it? I'm happy enough. But, I probably won't replace my 4228 with another 4228, even of the same model.

I have the CM 7777 pre-amp, which allows two inputs. I'm waiting to see how well WQED and WPCW perform. If I don't need a VHF antenna for those two, I'm going to buy a highly directional antenna to sort out my multipath issue from Altoona.

That said, where I live is just horrific for OTA reception. I have local interference from a radio station (less than 1 mi). There are a couple factories nearby. I'm surrounded by hills in every direction except southwest (which is why KDKA, WPGH and WPXI work so well for me).

Now, my understanding is that Youngstown has some weird blind spots. You might want to take a look on TVFool.com and see what you're up against at your exact location.

Where I'm at, only two stations (WPSU and WJAC) are rated as solidly receivable with anything less than extreme measures. Compared to what I've been told to expect, I don't have a lot of room to complain.

MeowMeow

05-31-09, 10:53 PM

One more thing to consider: proper grounding. At my old house, adding proper grounding helped me move a marginal signal into the weak, but solid range.

KNP 2516

06-01-09, 08:28 AM

Hi, I’m new to this forum and I find the sight very informative. I’m looking for some help with my antenna setup and hope someone out there with a lot of expertise can help.
I live in the Youngstown Ohio area which is between Cleveland and Pittsburgh. I had an old channel master 4228 (30 years old) that was still up and a 24db distribution amp, hooked it up to my Digital TV.

If you are saying that your old set up received all those channels digitally -= then why did you mess with it? Put the old antenna back up.

Seem to be working great, was getting all my locals plus got channel 2 Pittsburgh all the time and channel 11 most of the time. Also would get 4, 13, & 53 when conditions were good. When I point it to Cleveland I would get channel 5 all the time, 8 most of the time and 43 when conditions were good.
Here’s the problem, I decided to get a new 4228 and change my cable wire to the rg6,
Some RG-6 has a high rate of loss in the higher frequency's.
Depending on how long of a run you have from your antenna to your television set- you might be loosing as much as 6 db of your signal - just in the wire.

What wire did you use? Manufacturer / part number etc..

thinking that the new would be better because the old was rusty and the wiring would be better and I might be able to get more channels in. When I was done it was worse. I was only able to get Cleveland, finally when I put the old balum back on the new antenna I did get Pittsburgh back in. But the signal strength is not as good as before and channels I got most of the time are only coming in when conditions are good. I am getting Steubenville channel 9 in but only at night when I point the antenna that way but I get it in all the time on the back side. Here is my current setup, antenna is channel master 4228, and wire is rg6 quad 2300 MHz, ace 24db gain amp and a monster 2gig 4way splitter.

The CM 7777 is a nice VHF/UHF preamp.
There are a couple of important specifications to look at in preamplifiers.
Gain and Noise

Both are measured in db.
The gain is the amount of amplification that the unit produces.

Signal Reception 101
Example
Let's say the average estimated signal level from WTAJ in your area is -41db.
That calculates to .00008 millawatts (000.000.08 watts) of power per meter
of antenna receive (radiator) element size. Not the whole antenna size.
There are three parts to a antenna.
1. Director
2. Radiator (the element/s that the wire connect to)
3. Reflector

The Directors and Reflectors are generally grounded either directly or
through a tuning wire.

With a -41db input and a receiver that can pick up a signal to -55db (most
are in this range, but manufactures do not publish any specifications, you
have 14db of safety factor for all atmospheric signal reduction, trees and
other factors.
You should get a good picture (analog).
If you have a amplifier with 18 db of gain that is like the TV station
increasing their power 64 times (every 3db of gain is equal to doubling the
power). That now gives you 22db of margin, that is great... However all
amplifiers amplify everything both the good signal that you want to
hear/see and bad noise from power lines, ignition systems, electric fences,
motor brush noise etc. Amplifiers also generate their own noise. So a
amplifier with a high gain is great but the internally generated noise must
be at the minimum.

So look for a amplifier that has the best gain and the lowest noise figure.

Could the wiring be the problem, splitter, or the amp? What setup should I have?

If you do not use the 4 televisions all the time, then I wouldn't even bother wiring the house for all four rooms. Because you will have more loss with 4 televisions hooked up to the wire then you would with two.

You could consider putting up two antenna's, one for two rooms and another mounted on the same pole - pointed in the same direction for the other two rooms and two amplifiers.

KNP 2516

06-01-09, 08:51 AM

ajg0711

06-01-09, 10:26 PM

Where I'm at, only two stations (WPSU and WJAC) are rated as solidly receivable with anything less than extreme measures. Compared to what I've been told to expect, I don't have a lot of room to complain.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your response. I live 60 miles northwest of pittsburgh and I do have alot of trees to contend with. Of course I get all the youngstown stations in, along with KDKA pittsburgh, wews channel 5(15) cleveland, and wtov 9 steubanville. I also get 11(48), 53(43) pittsburgh and 8(31) at night. The rest that i mention before all depends on the weather conditions.

ajg0711

06-01-09, 10:37 PM

wire is rg6 quad 2300 MHz, ace 24db gain amp and a monster 2gig 4way splitter.

The proper way to split the signal is to have one wire coming from the pre amplifier to a double splitter, then split that signal again. Not - trying to split one wire into 4 by using a large splitter.

Your splitter might work ok for tv cable - because the signal is much stronger, but is no good for a antenna!

Your amplifier is also the wrong choice

You want to use a pre amplifier that amplifies the signal from the antenna, not a amplifier that amplifies what ever signal you have - once it has traveled through the wire from the antenna to the inside of your house.

The only thing your amplifier does is add some gain to the signal which would help over come some of the loss you have from so many connections on one wire and your splitter.

Thanks for the info, I will try the things all you folks mentioned. I did think about putting my old 4228 back up with the new, but I was going to combine them into 1 signal. I also thought about removing the screen. I always thought that was to prevent the ghosting on analog and shouldn't affect digital.
But I also liked your idea of stacking the 2 and running seperate lines in. I could amp both antenna's and then also try different setups inside the house. I could always combine them in the house to try and see what it would do. What do you think?

KNP 2516

06-02-09, 11:50 AM

Thanks for the info, I will try the things all you folks mentioned. I did think about putting my old 4228 back up with the new, but I was going to combine them into 1 signal. I also thought about removing the screen. I always thought that was to prevent the ghosting on analog and shouldn't affect digital.
But I also liked your idea of stacking the 2 and running separate lines in. I could amp both antenna's and then also try different setups inside the house. I could always combine them in the house to try and see what it would do. What do you think?

I would use the one antenna for 2 televisions and the other antenna for the other two.

I would figure out which has the best reception and use it for the living room and what ever room you use the most and use the other for where ever you usually don't watch television or for someone that is not as particular - what they watch or how many stations they receive.

I would say that anyone that says that they live 60 miles from a transmitter and says that they have a good signal - must be doing something right or just lives in the right place.

Most stations on their maps tells you that the drop off is around 40 air miles from their transmitter.

Altoona - WTAJ is 39.73 miles from my house and there is one small hill - less than 50' higher than my antenna between them and me and I have had a large amount of signal drop off since the leaves are on the trees.

MY HAAT is 25 feet and I can increase that to 40' by moving my antenna to the top of the roof of my house. But I am waiting for the transition to be complete - before I move my antenna. I am in the process of remodeling my house and it wouldn't be wise to put it up and then have to take it down to put up the siding.

My Winegard 8200U - weighs at least 15 lbs + 2 lbs for the rotor and another 5 lbs for the mast and mount pipes. Plus I am waiting to get my CM 7777 pre amplifier. Solid signal has been out of them for several months now.
All of the antenna people have been hogging them up and selling them for a profit.

With a 9/12 pitch on the main roof, you wouldn't want to be up there in a wind storm or when it is raining or snowing.

MrGonk

06-03-09, 02:13 PM

dfiler

06-03-09, 03:38 PM

Mr Gonk

You're relatively close to the broadcast antennas as compared to people who live well outside of the city. This means that you'll get a relatively strong signal so huge antennas aren't necessary, at least for the Pittsburgh stations. Just about any roof mounted antenna will likely work.

The trouble will come in trying to tune in all the stations simultaneously. Once again, because you're in the city, you have different issues than people who live far away. Within the city, you'll need to receive signals from multiple directions. People who live outside the city are frequently lucky enough to have all their stations coming from the same direction. Combine this with hills and nearby buildings and it is difficult to predict whether an omni or directional antenna will perform better.

Living in Regents Square, I had to buy two directional antennas and point them in such a way to pick up all the stations but to exclude random inference from something else in the area, possibly reflections or stray RF from an appliance. In the end, it turns out that not pointing the antennas directly at the tv stations provided the best results.

Only advice I have is definitely go with a roof mounted antenna. An indoor is unlikely to work well. You might also want to wait until WQED switches their digital signal to VHF 13. Currently they're broadcasting on a UHF station. Lots of people will probably have to rework their antenna situation after that switch.

upzdayzm

06-03-09, 04:09 PM

Interesting read http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/HDTV_wasnt.html

dfiler

06-03-09, 04:37 PM

Interesting read but I don't agree with the conclusions reached.

Mainly I disagree with Peter Putman's conclusion that HDTV is insignificant, that people don't care about HD. Certainly time shifting is popular as he points out. But this doesn't mean that people are ambivalent to HD.

For instance... Has he talked to a sports fan in the last few years? A huge percentage of fans wouldn't dare watch their team in standard def. The superbowl not in HD? There would damn near be a riot! There are many more examples besides sports as well.

A more reasonable assertion would have been that digital broadcast TV turned out to be not such a big deal. That would have at least been somewhat supportable. (even though I'd argue against that as well)

He's approaching this subject as if there has to be a single "next big thing". This is flawed reasoning in my opinion. It isn't one or the other. People want both HD and time shifting.

KNP 2516

06-03-09, 05:45 PM

Hey - I need an antenna recommendation if anyone has one. Probably moving to Bloomfield near Penn Ave, right around Allegheny Cemetary. From there, most of the stations are NW but of course WTAE is south and slightly east. Most stations are within 4 miles, while WTAE is 15 miles away. I'm going to go with a roof-mounted antenna. My question is whether I want an omnidirectional antenna to ensure that I receive signals from all around, or if it might just be better to go with a directional one and point it basically south and hope that the stations NW are so close to me i can receive them even pointing away. Any suggestions?

Get a cheap Winegard UHF only antenna and BUY a rotor at radio shack or Lowes.

http://www.winegard.com/kbase/antenna_selector.php

Might I suggest a Winegard HD 7080P, it has good range and can also be used to receive FM radio signals. Nothing is going to pick up everything 360*

But that antenna has very good front to back - for the range and price.

JK77

06-03-09, 10:50 PM

PA_MainyYak

06-04-09, 02:47 PM

Looks like KDKA will finally switch local news to HD in a couple weeks.
That's according to Rob Owens in this article (http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs/tunedin/archive/2009/06/03/kdka-s-jeff-verszyla-takes-a-hit.aspx) in the P-G concerning the end of Jeff Verszyla's promising beer league softball career.

dxernut

06-04-09, 03:12 PM

bull3964

06-04-09, 04:30 PM

Seems WPCB is preparing to do away with the simulcast on 40-2. I went past to see if it had changed, and sure enough it did: color bars with an explanation that programming will change (no mention to what) and a notice to rescan.

I've always wondered why any of the stations do an SD simulcast on a substation. AFAIK, all ATSC tuners can take the primary HD channel and downconvert it to SD, so what's the point?

Trip in VA

06-04-09, 06:26 PM

I've always wondered why any of the stations do an SD simulcast on a substation. AFAIK, all ATSC tuners can take the primary HD channel and downconvert it to SD, so what's the point?

Funny story, turns out that DirecTV was having problems with their receive gear having breakups on some Sinclair Fox digital stations. The solution was to light up an SD subchannel. Not sure why it worked, but it did apparently fix the problem.

The posts about it are in the Syracuse thread, back a few months or so.

- Trip

nwiser

06-04-09, 11:11 PM

The proper way to split the signal is to have one wire coming from the pre amplifier to a double splitter, then split that signal again. Not - trying to split one wire into 4 by using a large splitter.

is this really true? what kind of difference in terms of signal loss will it make to have two two way splitters (three really if you count the one to feed them) versus having one 4-way splitter?

I have my antenna's pre-amp output going into a 4-way splitter and generally get good reception, though there are a few channels that a little boost in strength wouldnt hurt.

MrGonk

06-05-09, 02:58 PM

so... basically there's no real way i can get away without a rotor, i suppose. has anyone had positive results with the winegard squareshooter?

JK77

06-07-09, 01:32 AM

Funny story, turns out that DirecTV was having problems with their receive gear having breakups on some Sinclair Fox digital stations. The solution was to light up an SD subchannel. Not sure why it worked, but it did apparently fix the problem.

I thought it was interesting that the flagship Sinclair duo in Baltimore doesn't broadcast any SD simulcasts. At least WBFF has THIStv on 45-2.

nwiser

06-11-09, 11:35 PM

did anyone else's 40-2 dissappear and show up as 16-1? I now have two 16-1's...the former 40-2, and the original 16-1 QVC type show. fun fun fun.

firemantom26

06-11-09, 11:43 PM

16-1 is wqex

16-1 is wbgn

Trip in VA

06-12-09, 05:54 AM

Really? 40-2 is now 16-1? That's interesting. I didn't see that one coming.

In other news, WPXI has filed for three fill-in translators, one each in Uniontown (23), New Castle (33), and Derry (21).

- Trip

KNP 2516

06-12-09, 07:49 AM

so... basically there's no real way i can get away without a rotor, i suppose. has anyone had positive results with the winegard squareshooter?

Any Rotor will work.

A rotor - in most cases has two motors inside of it. One that turns clockwise and one that turns counter clockwise, and a brake to hold it in one place.

WJAC's first commercial - before they started analog service in 1949 was for Alliance Manufacturing - the "Tenna rotor" that was made in Ohio.

http://www.schaeffersite.com/radiotv/tv1103.htm

The funny thing was - we had about 3 or 4 of them and most of them would last about 10 years and then the housing would rust out and the seal would go bad on the top of them and the capacitor inside the motor would go bad and the gear would wear out inside the control box. Or the drain hole would plug up - from bugs crawling up inside of it or dirt and the motor would fill up with water and freeze.

Most modern rotors uses infrared signals with a remote control and is all electronic and works 10 times better than the old style Tenna Rotor.

I leaned a old Radio Shack rotor against the house a couple of months ago that was 30 years old and still works. It's housing was mostly corroded, and you couldn't get the U clamps off anymore - and yet it still worked.

Welcome back to 1949!

SamVin

06-12-09, 02:05 PM

Noticed this morning (about 10 AM) that WJAC has stopped broadcasting any programming on VHF 6 - only showing a notice about not showing any further programming and telling analog viewers who have still not done anything about the DTVT where to go. (I'd like to tell those JA where to go! - opps, sorry about that.)

Also saw WTAE and WPXI running crawls this morning on their analog channels about shutting down tonight at 11:59 PM.

On WPXI's noon news they said if the PENS game goes in to overtime past midnight anyone watching on analog will lose the game. (NICE! If nothing else that should really motivate those losers. :rolleyes:)

On a side note about WPXI - anyone want to take any bets on how long it will be for WPCW (19) DT to take over once PXI vacates their VHF broadcast channel. They (PCW) say the DT broadcasting will be up on June 13 , which implies if PXI shuts off at 11:59PM, they should be up at like 12:00 AM, but IMO I suspect it may take a heck of a lot longer - maybe Sunday or I wouldn't be surprised if it is even Monday.

Inundated

06-12-09, 02:40 PM

On a side note about WPXI - anyone want to take any bets on how long it will be for WPCW (19) DT to take over once PXI vacates their VHF broadcast channel. They (PCW) say the DT broadcasting will be up on June 13 , which implies if PXI shuts off at 11:59PM, they should be up at like 12:00 AM, but IMO I suspect it may take a heck of a lot longer - maybe Sunday or I wouldn't be surprised if it is even Monday.

Presumably, the WPCW folks have a DT 11 transmitter all ready to fire up as soon as analog 11 goes out...presuming, as I believe, that the new digital 11 site near Pittsburgh is ready.

I don't see what could take longer, unless testing reveals problems or more testing is needed.

arxaw

06-12-09, 03:09 PM

Getting KDKA 2 analog here in NW Arkansas today.

SamVin

06-12-09, 07:36 PM

Yeah - I noticed this morning when I switched over to check out the analog stations I was picking up a lot of signals from out of state stations on broadcast channel 3 and had interference from out of state stations on channels 2 and 4 (which KDKA and WTAE analog currently are on, well at least until midnight tonight). :confused:

Once the transition is done and those low VHF channels are mostly abandon, I guess I'll miss that usual fun of watching summer time TV. :rolleyes:

----
BTW the nightly network news programs are reporting that perhaps as many as 3 million households are still not ready for the switch to DTV. Back in Feb the number I think I heard most reported was like 6 million then. So the government pushed the date back to gain time to get these people on board, yet here it is 4 months later, and the number has only been cut in half. I said it then - I didn't think giving them those extra months would get them to switch over. The only thing that would motive some of them is to lose their TV programs. "Irving - there's something wrong with the TV! I can't see Judge Judy." :D

WB3LEQ

06-12-09, 08:00 PM

In other news, WPXI has filed for three fill-in translators, one each in Uniontown (23), New Castle (33), and Derry (21).

- Trip

I hope they point an antenna signal lobe towards Masontown, Pa. That's the only apparent way I'll ever be able to watch WPXI ever again! Yea, I'll just keep on dreaming that's going to happen.........

benji15301

06-13-09, 12:50 AM

On a side note about WPXI - anyone want to take any bets on how long it will be for WPCW (19) DT to take over once PXI vacates their VHF broadcast channel. They (PCW) say the DT broadcasting will be up on June 13 , which implies if PXI shuts off at 11:59PM, they should be up at like 12:00 AM, but IMO I suspect it may take a heck of a lot longer - maybe Sunday or I wouldn't be surprised if it is even Monday.[/QUOTE]

I guess the folks at CBS determined they waited long enough (which they did) for digital WPCW (CW-19).

I checked at 12:02 AM (6-13) and they were already up and running.

WPXI vacated right on time at 11:59 PM.

WPXI and WTAE just pulled the plug, where KDKA played the National Anthem (good job) and a quick retrospect video featuring some of their notable personalities over the decades.

JK77

06-13-09, 12:55 AM

did anyone else's 40-2 dissappear and show up as 16-1? I now have two 16-1's...the former 40-2, and the original 16-1 QVC type show. fun fun fun.

I still get 40-1 and 40-2, with the latter now just a black screen.

JK77

06-13-09, 01:00 AM

In other news, WPXI has filed for three fill-in translators, one each in Uniontown (23), New Castle (33), and Derry (21).

Derry? I'm not far from Derry and get a fine signal on 48.

Trip in VA

06-13-09, 01:01 AM

I hope they point an antenna signal lobe towards Masontown, Pa. That's the only apparent way I'll ever be able to watch WPXI ever again! Yea, I'll just keep on dreaming that's going to happen.........

Looks like they're hoping the Uniontown one does the trick...

- Trip

JK77

06-13-09, 01:02 AM

Once the transition is done and those low VHF channels are mostly abandon, I guess I'll miss that usual fun of watching summer time TV. :rolleyes:

Still have a chance for pulling in Canada for another two years. They won't switch until August 31, 2011.

Mark Vidonic

06-13-09, 03:49 AM

On a side note about WPXI - anyone want to take any bets on how long it will be for WPCW (19) DT to take over once PXI vacates their VHF broadcast channel. They (PCW) say the DT broadcasting will be up on June 13 , which implies if PXI shuts off at 11:59PM, they should be up at like 12:00 AM, but IMO I suspect it may take a heck of a lot longer - maybe Sunday or I wouldn't be surprised if it is even Monday.

I guess the folks at CBS determined they waited long enough (which they did) for digital WPCW (CW-19).

I checked at 12:02 AM (6-13) and they were already up and running.

WPXI vacated right on time at 11:59 PM.

WPXI and WTAE just pulled the plug, where KDKA played the National Anthem (good job) and a quick retrospect video featuring some of their notable personalities over the decades.[/QUOTE]

I've scanned twice, and no WPCW for me..wonder why. I am getting KD at 98%.

dfiler

06-13-09, 10:03 AM

Nice, the CW is now broadcasting on channel 11 (virtual 19.1)

Currently showing: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
Life is now complete.

dfiler

06-13-09, 10:16 AM

I'm not seeing WQED on 13 though. Are they broadcasting on that channel yet? (All I've got are UHF antennas that I'm hoping pick up enough high-VHF to get 13)

SamVin

06-13-09, 12:25 PM

I'm not seeing WQED on 13 though. Are they broadcasting on that channel yet? (All I've got are UHF antennas that I'm hoping pick up enough high-VHF to get 13)
Sorry - it won't be until some time in August for WQED-DT to move back in to the high VHF band on channel 13. Until then they will still broadcast their digital programming on UHF 38. And once they go back to VHF 13, then their little sister station WQEX-DT (16.1) which is currently using UHF 26 moves to the vacated UHF 38 channel WQED is using. With all the moves QED/QEX are doing seems like a game of "musical chairs" to me and I'm not exactly sure why.:confused:

Also while I missed the whole Analog sign-offs last night (I dozed off while waiting for it :o) I was amazed to discover WPCW (19.1) is up and working just fine on WPXI's vacated VHF channel. I'm getting a strong (like 85-90%) signal which is crystal clear. Quite an improvement over the usual ghosting and snow I had no matter how I oriented my antenna when watching the CW in the past. :cool:

Now I'm just left wondering when WBGN-LP (59 analog) will start digital broadcasting as WBGN-LD on UHF 16.

Trip in VA

06-13-09, 12:37 PM

Channel 26 is power limited by a station in Cleveland, while channel 38 is not.

- Trip

MeowMeow

06-13-09, 01:27 PM

I've scanned twice, and no WPCW for me..wonder why. I am getting KD at 98%.

They're operating at 2.5 kw under their construction permit. The FCC hasn't granted their application for more power yet.

pghturbo88

06-13-09, 01:36 PM

Now I'm just left wondering when WBGN-LP (59 analog) will start digital broadcasting as WBGN-LD on UHF 16.

They're already there on 16-1, for me at least. I used to get the channel 66 version in analog from Beaver. Lots of informercials.

Nice to see CW19 up and running, if nothing else, as a good 10 PM news alternative. When KD goes HD this week, I wonder if CW19 will follow suit and show the 10PM news in HD as well.

Trip in VA

06-13-09, 01:43 PM

They're already there on 16-1, for me at least. I used to get the channel 66 version in analog from Beaver. Lots of informercials.

Any way to tell if it's actually the low-powered signal on channel 16?

- Trip

KNP 2516

06-13-09, 02:28 PM

Just a small update.

Friday morning was the best time for anyone that called themselves DXr's.

I did some consultation and channel 2 through 6 were vacant by 9 am.

I had to go out of town to do some work for Penelec and I set my VCR to tape the last half hour of channel 6, 4, 10

Only when I came home, the only channel that still had a signal when they alleged to sign off was channel 6. The next to the last commercial was for WOLF's Furniture - which was a long time sponsor of WJAC. Everyone that watched it can remember their going out of business sales in the 70's and 80's.

The last commercial was for TEAM CHEVROLET. There was about 30 seconds of raygay music and then the screen locked onto their thread of - YOU NEED A DIGITAL CONVERTER.

A funny thing happened, the Penguins won the Stanley CUP.

Well guess what? Channel 2, 4, 11 and 19 all turned back on their analog signal and showed post game results, interviews and the riots in Pittsburgh.

The threat of them shutting off the signal before the end of the game was all a hoax. That was probably the second largest day in sports in Pittsburgh history after the Emaculate Reception.

KNP 2516

06-13-09, 02:39 PM

Friday morning when the Pittsburgh stations went to low power or shut off was the greatest thing they ever done for television.

On channel 2,3 and 4, I received a station from Detroit Michigan - WDIV, Cleveland Ohio - WKYC, a station in Charleston WV WSAZ. A glimpse of WCHS on channel 8. A couple of signals from Buffalo - I think one was WGRZ and the other was WIBV - which I had taken several pictures of the shows on their channel. WCBV in Boston - channel 5,

Channel 2 was the best with a NBC, ABC and PBS station all at the same time with different points on the compass.

Channel 3 had at least two stations at any one time

Channel 4 had as many as 4 stations at any one time.

Channel 5 stations came and went.

I had one station on channel 8 for a few minutes.

Everything disappeared by 12 o'clock - as if someone had turned off a switch.

Inundated

06-13-09, 04:23 PM

How far is WPCW-DT (19.1/11) getting out?

nwiser

06-13-09, 06:09 PM

Any way to tell if it's actually the low-powered signal on channel 16?

- Trip

I dont know for sure, but if I had to guess I'd say its the low powered signal, as the picture is pixelated and static-y looking despite the signal strength being fairly stable in the "good" area on my Zenith CECB signal meter.

Also, I can get 19-1 on my CECB's but not on my 24" Insignia flat screen Digital TV...the signal must either not be strong enough/above the strength threshold for it, or the channel configuration with it really being on 11-1 is somehow confusing the (cheap) tuner.

If they boost the power a bit and it starts coming in clear on my DTV, and the whole two 16-1 channels gets resolved I'll be fairly pleased.

dxernut

06-13-09, 08:50 PM

:)Nice, the CW is now broadcasting on channel 11 (virtual 19.1)

Currently showing: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
Life is now complete.

I stayed up Friday night for the switchover and was extremely pleased to see the CW on the air in 1080 format . Don't receive it perfectly in every room, but am expermenting with several antennas. Thursday evening I started receiving WBGN on 16:) that was a surprise. Shows a 90% signal , but breaks up a lot.I can live with it though, at least they are trying, and in a timely manner. Can't expect perfection from an LP station.How are you folks receiving WBGN?

benji15301

06-13-09, 11:41 PM

Here's a clip of the classy way KDKA TV shut down their analog signal last nite at midnight.

http://kdka.com/video/?id=58784@kdka.dayport.com

They were the only station to do so with class and they should be commended for doing a little more than just "flipping a switch".

Hope their HD newscast works out next week (finally).

I have to wonder if they will start airing syndicated programming also in HD. There has been no mention of that. It would be disappointing if they don't.

Sammer

06-14-09, 03:50 AM

Any way to tell if it's actually the low-powered signal on channel 16?

- Trip
Nope, but it's definitely WBGN with a digital signal. Why it's not showing a virtual channel number of 59.1 I couldn't tell you. The other 16.1 is definitely WQEX.

Trip in VA

06-14-09, 10:10 AM

Nope, but it's definitely WBGN with a digital signal. Why it's not showing a virtual channel number of 59.1 I couldn't tell you. The other 16.1 is definitely WQEX.

I've gone ahead and listed it as WBGN-LD on physical 16 on my website. If anyone determines that it is on a different channel, please let me know.

- Trip

SamVin

06-14-09, 01:46 PM

I looked for WBGN's digital signal on UHF 16 yesterday afternoon and while I am picking a signal up, it isn't consistently strong enough for my converter boxes to decode and produce the programming. I tried again early this morning and it was the same story. :(

Yet according to the FCC service contour map their 14 kw signal should reach almost to Kittanning, which is in my direction. And if TV Fool is to be believed the signal at my location should be more than strong enough at -88.9 dBm to be viewable (WTAJ at -88.4 dBm comes in perfectly when I orient my antenna properly). So I'm left to wonder that while WBGN-LD 16 is broadcasting, they may have yet to crank their transmitter up to their stated power level. :confused:

SamVin

06-14-09, 03:24 PM

Here's a clip of the classy way KDKA TV shut down their analog signal last nite at midnight.
....
They were the only station to do so with class and they should be commended for doing a little more than just "flipping a switch".
Yeah - it was a real nice sign off on all of KD's decades of analog broadcasting as both KDKA-2 & WDTV-3. And it's too bad that neither WTAE or WPXI, who both have been around in one form or another for roughly the same amount of time, didn't do something similar with stuff pulled from their archives too.

(And besides I loved seeing Patty Burns with her big hair again. :D)

Trip in VA

06-14-09, 04:11 PM

Remember that it's not power level that is important so much as signal quality. If WTAJ's signal has a very high SNR and low EVM and the WBGN-LD signal does not, then the former will be received while the latter will not.

Last week, I was at the transmitter for the station I'm employed with for the summer, and we retuned the transmitter, bumping the SNR up a bit and the EVM down a bit, which makes the signal easier to decode.

It's all a matter of quality. If the WBGN signal doesn't have a good SNR or the signal isn't flat on a spectrum analyzer, you're going to have trouble with it, even if the WBGN signal is burning the house down.

- Trip

Sammer

06-14-09, 06:06 PM

KNP 2516

06-14-09, 11:55 PM

Yeah - it was a real nice sign off on all of KD's decades of analog broadcasting as both KDKA-2 & WDTV-3. And it's too bad that neither WTAE or WPXI, who both have been around in one form or another for roughly the same amount of time, didn't do something similar with stuff pulled from their archives too.

(And besides I loved seeing Patty Burns with her big hair again. :D)

WDTV was the first television station in Pittsburgh. January 11,1949
They was also the United States 5th commercial television station.

Anyone old enough to remember will tell you that when you turned on your television - the only station you received was WDTV. That is a 100% market share. So when you wanted to watch tv, you turned it on and when you didn't want to watch tv, you turned it off. There wasn't any need to change the channel - because they were the only television station that you could receive in Pittsburgh until they sold their license to KDKA January 10, 1955.

Due to the fact that no old televisions had UHF and the newer model televisions didn't receive UHF very well, after the transition - where they were moved to channel so high that almost no televisions received it.

Shortly after that , Dumont went bankrupt and was out of business.

http://wdtv.com/history/history.htm

http://wqed.org/mag/columns/sebak/2009/0109_tv.php

http://www.ggninfo.com/January06.htm

http://www.dumonthistory.tv/a13.html

WQED was the second station and they didn't come on air until 1954.

WIIC came on the air in September 1957

Most people can remember that the television broadcasting day ended on WDTV at 10 pm.

wallybarthman

06-15-09, 12:06 AM

How far is WPCW-DT (19.1/11) getting out?

I'm in Gibsonia/Richland and am not getting it. My tuners know it's there but can't do anything with it. Im hoping it's because of reduced power and not my ClearStream4 antenna. I'm more concerned about QED moving back to VHF. I get KDKA at 100% so its not the distance that is causing the problem for CW.

KNP 2516

06-15-09, 12:06 AM

As WDTV

http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/619133

The station went on the air on January 11, 1949, as WDTV (W DuMont TeleVision), owned and operated by the DuMont Television Network. It became the first "networked" station briging the gap between the mid-west area stations that showed many shows hosted in Chicago and the east coast stations that had much of its programming from New York. It also boasted being the first full time television station, in March 1952 it was the very first to have a 24/7 program schedule [http://kdka.com/slideshows/KDKA.TV.anniversary.20.687528.html?rid=6] . It originally broadcast on channel 3, moving to channel 2 in 1952 to alleviate interference with WNBK in Cleveland (now WKYC-TV), which for several years was a sister station to KDKA-TV. It was one of the last stations to be granted a construction permit before the Federal Communications Commission imposed what turned out to be a four-year freeze on new licenses.

At the time, Pittsburgh was the sixth-largest market in the country (behind New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Philadelphia and Washington). However, WDTV's only competition came from UHF stations, as well as grade B signals from stations in Johnstown, Altoona, Wheeling and Youngstown. Despite its large market size, no other commercial VHF stations signed on in Pittsburgh until 1957 (the only other VHF station in town was educational WQED-TV). This was because the major cities in the Upper Ohio Valley are so close together that they must share the VHF band. After the FCC lifted the license freeze in 1952, it refused to grant any new commercial VHF construction permits to Pittsburgh in order to give the smaller cities in the area a chance to get on the air. At the time, UHF stations were unviewable without a very expensive converter. Even with a converter, the picture quality was marginal at best. UHF stations in the area faced an additional problem because Pittsburgh is located in a somewhat rugged dissected plateau, and UHF stations usually do not get good reception in rugged terrain.

As a result, WDTV had a de facto monopoly on Pittsburgh television. Like its sister stations, WABD in New York (now WNYW) and WTTG in Washington, it was far stronger than the network as a whole. Owning the only viewable station in such a large market gave DuMont considerable leverage in getting its programs cleared in large markets where it didn't have an affiliate. As CBS, NBC and ABC had secondary affiliations with WDTV, this was a strong incentive to stations in large markets to clear DuMont's programs or risk losing valuable advertising in the sixth-largest market. WDTV aired all DuMont network shows live and cherry-picked the best shows from the other networks, airing them on kinescope on an every-other-week basis.

WDTV's sign-on was also significant because it was now possible to feed live programs from the East to the Midwest and vice versa. In fact, its second broadcast was the activation of the coaxial cable linking the two regions. It would be another two years before the West Coast received live programming, but this was the beginning of the modern era of network television.

Desperate for cash, DuMont was forced to sell WDTV to Westinghouse Electric Corporation for $9.75 million in late 1954. While the sale gave DuMont a short-term cash infusion, it eliminated DuMont's leverage in getting clearances in other major markets. Within two years, the DuMont network was no more.

Westinghouse had wanted to sign on a television sister station to KDKA radio --the world's oldest radio station--for some time, but when it became obvious the FCC wouldn't grant any VHF construction permits in the near future, it opted to approach DuMont.

After the sale closed in 1955, Westinghouse changed WDTV's calls to KDKA-TV, sistering it to Westinghouse's pioneering radio station KDKA (and later to FM 92.9, now WLTJ). As such, it became one of the few stations east of the Mississippi with a "K" call sign. KDKA-TV became a primary CBS affiliate, retaining secondary affiliations with NBC until 1957 (when WIIC-TV, now WPXI, signed on) and ABC until 1958 (when WTAE-TV signed on). It became the flagship station of Westinghouse's broadcasting arm, Group W.

dfiler

06-15-09, 09:01 AM

benji15301

06-15-09, 10:16 AM

KDKA news in HD next week? Finally!

Is there more info on this available somewhere?

Q: What's the deal with the look of KDKA's set? Are they using a temporary set while building a new one for the HD conversion?

-- James, 21, Evans City

Rob: Yes, a new set is being constructed and is expected to debut when KDKA's newscasts begin broadcasting in HD on Tuesday.

Usually I try to do a column on a station's new set before it debuts -- as we did in recent years when WPXI and WTAE got new sets -- but KDKA's set wasn't camera ready in time. My hope is to get something on the blog (http://community.post-gazette.com/blogs/tunedin/default.aspx) before Tuesday.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09163/976811-238.stm#ixzz0IVZWubKD&C

lifterguy

06-15-09, 01:20 PM

I was amazed to discover WPCW (19.1) is up and working just fine on WPXI's vacated VHF channel. I'm getting a strong (like 85-90%) signal which is crystal clear. Quite an improvement over the usual ghosting and snow I had no matter how I oriented my antenna when watching the CW in the past. :cool:

Now I'm just left wondering when WBGN-LP (59 analog) will start digital broadcasting as WBGN-LD on UHF 16.

Could those of you who are successfully getting the new WPCW signal OTA post some info on your location and the type of antenna you are using? I'm located just east of the city, near Monroeville. Right now I have an indoor double bow-tie antenna, and I get great reception on almost all Pittsburgh channels (WTAE is a little iffy) and I just started getting the new digital signal for WBGN (with some break-up). But when I try to get WPCW I get nothing at all. (And I am looking on RF 11) - I've tried 2 different tuners so far. I know the double bow-tie is a UHF antenna, but I thought I'd at least get a weak signal...

SamVin

06-15-09, 02:21 PM

Could those of you who are successfully getting the new WPCW signal OTA post some info on your location and the type of antenna you are using? I'm located just east of the city, near Monroeville. Right now I have an indoor double bow-tie antenna, and I get great reception on almost all Pittsburgh channels (WTAE is a little iffy) and I just started getting the new digital signal for WBGN (with some break-up). But when I try to get WPCW I get nothing at all. (And I am looking on RF 11) - I've tried 2 different tuners so far. I know the double bow-tie is a UHF antenna, but I thought I'd at least get a weak signal...
I'm located NE of downtown PGH, near the Armstrong / Westmorland border. Leechburg is the closest "town" to my home. I have a roof-mount CM Crossfire antenna that I installed about 25 years ago. it has held up amazingly well, but I am planning on replacing it possibly sometime later this year. My Crossfire is a big VHF/UHF/FM 82 channel periodic antenna with a CM rotor for orienting it.

In general I have been picking up all the "new" VHF DT stations. At about 60 miles WTOV (VHF-9) comes in fine. On VHF 11 WPCW has one of the strongest signals I've seen. Only KDKA and WPGH in the UHF band come in normally as strong. My main problem is with WWCP which I have constant problems with ever since they moved their digital transmission from the UHF band to the VHF band on channel 8. (Heck - under the right conditions I've even picked up WTRF (VHF-7) a station that neither the FCC database, nor TV FOOL says I should receive with the signal level at my location.)

If all you have is a UHF antenna then that may be your whole problem. The driven elements in your UHF antenna simply may not have enough gain to give your digital tuner any kind of a reliable signal to decode. Remember: there is like a factor of two in difference in the channel wavelengths between the high VHF band and even the lowest channel (14) in the UHF band.

benji15301

06-15-09, 02:36 PM

benji15301

06-15-09, 04:04 PM

Could those of you who are successfully getting the new WPCW signal OTA post some info on your location and the type of antenna you are using? I'm located just east of the city, near Monroeville. Right now I have an indoor double bow-tie antenna, and I get great reception on almost all Pittsburgh channels (WTAE is a little iffy) and I just started getting the new digital signal for WBGN (with some break-up). But when I try to get WPCW I get nothing at all. (And I am looking on RF 11) - I've tried 2 different tuners so far. I know the double bow-tie is a UHF antenna, but I thought I'd at least get a weak signal...

Antenna: Winegard HD8200U
Antenna pre-amp: Channel Master 7778 (mast-mount)
Rotor: Philips SDW1850/17
Cable: 75' RG-6 2300Mhz. 18 guage quad-shield
Elevation: 1165 feet
Antenna elevation: approx. 1200 feet (rooftop tri-pod mount)
Poor direction(s): west, southwest, northwest

Channels recivable at this location:
Call Letters Network Mapping Physical Ch. Max Signal (%) Notes
KDKA - HD CBS 2.1 25 98 solid Lock
WTAE - HD ABC 4.1 51 89 solid Lock
WTAE - SD WX/Accuweather 4.2 51 89
WJAC - HD NBC 6.1 34 N/A rarely locks in
WJAC - SD RTN 6.2 34 N/A
WJAC - SD NBC 6.3 34 N/A SD simulcast of WJAC - HD
WTRF - HD CBS 7.1 7 98 solid lock
WTRF - SD FOX 7.2 7 98
WTRF - SD ABC 7.3 7 98
WWCP - HD FOX 8.1 8 95 solid Lock
WATM - SD ABC 8.2 8 95 SD simulcast of WATM - HD
WTOV - HD NBC 9.1 9 92 solid Lock
WTOV - SD RTN 9.2 9 92
WVFX - SD FOX 10.1 10 N/A rarely locks in
WPXI - HD NBC 11.1 48 98 solid Lock
WPXI - SD RTN 11.2 48 98
WBOY - HD NBC 12.1 12 N/A rarely locks in
WBOY - SD ABC 12.2 12 N/A
WQED - HD PBS 13.1 38 84 solid lock
WQED - SD PBS Create 13.2 38 84
WQED - SD Local Programming 13.3 38 84
WQEX - SD Shop NBC 16.1 26 N/A tough to lock in, better signal at nite
WPCW - HD CW 19.1 11 98 solid lock
WPMY - HD MyTV 22.1 42 95 solid lock
WPMY - SD MyTV 22.2 42 95 SD simulcast of WPMY-HD
WNPB - SD PBS 24.1 33 65 solid Lock
WNPB - SD PBS Create 24.2 33 65
WNPB - HD PBS 24.3 33 65 West Virginia PBS
WPCB - SD Cornerstone 40.1 50 78
WPGH - HD FOX 53.1 43 95 solid lock
WPGH - SD FOX 53.2 43 95 SD simulcast of WPGH - HD

marklar2u

06-15-09, 06:25 PM

hello.

using WMC (in Vista Premium).

added channel 19.1, tried frequency 19, then 49, then 11...where it finally "took". However, now when I go to it in the channel guide, the four digit channel number is: (drum roll)

1533.

Yep, that to me looks like 53.3 as a channel #. Can anyone shed some light here?

thanks in advance.

----------

** Ummmm, reset my channels and guide (...again) and this time WPCW is showing up as channel 19.1

lifterguy

06-16-09, 08:10 AM

Thanks for all the input on antenna type, location, etc. I've been thinking about a VHF/UHF roof antenna for some time and have been putting it off (the double bow-tie indoor antenna has worked amazingly well) but now you're convincing me I've got to do it. I would love to pull in WJAC and/or WTOV.

benji15301

06-16-09, 10:59 AM

bull3964

06-16-09, 11:23 AM

stuff

Heh, that just goes to show you what an antenna will do if you get all of that in Washington.

I live behind McIntyre Square in the North Hills and can't get WPCW with an indoor antenna. It's not really that GOOD of an indoor antenna, but still.

benji15301

06-16-09, 12:09 PM

Heh, that just goes to show you what an antenna will do if you get all of that in Washington.

I live behind McIntyre Square in the North Hills and can't get WPCW with an indoor antenna. It's not really that GOOD of an indoor antenna, but still.

Agree. And if/when you get an outdoor antenna, don't go for the smallest one. You'll be sorry later.

Remember this is one of the hardest terrains to receive digital signals. If you're at the top of a hill---no problem.

The terrain here at my location is TERRIBLE. I'm at the base of a hill which totally blocks my view of the NW, West and SW. Yet I still receive stations from those directions.

I knew I needed a larger antenna.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B001DFS4BI/ref=dp_image_text_0?ie=UTF8&n=172282&s=electronics

benji15301

06-16-09, 04:02 PM

For those interested, KDKA-DT (CBS) local news is now in HD. They're the last station in the Pgh. market to go HD newscasts.
Now 2 questions.
1) Will syndicated programming (Insider HD, etc.) be in HD?
2) Will the 10PM newscasts on WPCW be in HD also?

gmc9512

06-16-09, 08:07 PM

I'm quite disapointed in KDKA. Tuned in to The Insider tonight and still not in HD. I can't believe they can't do what the other locals have been doing for some time now. I always thought that they would be a leader in technology, not a last place finisher at that.

benji15301

06-16-09, 08:43 PM

Note that the "HD" content of their newscasts is very limited.
Other than the anchors being in HD, there is nothing else in HD.
Not even the weather maps or weather graphics are in HD.
No stories or videos are in HD.
Even special reports like Yvonne Zanos, Maria Simbra, etc. are SD.
If this is it, it is a really poor attempt to qualify as an HD newscast.

dfiler

06-16-09, 08:46 PM

The truly ironic thing about he newscast is that the only time that the text "HD" is plastered all over the screen... is when standard definition (4:3) content is being shown with static side-bars.

benji15301

06-16-09, 09:17 PM

The truly ironic thing about he newscast is that the only time that the text "HD" is plastered all over the screen... is when standard definition (4:3) content is being shown with static side-bars.

They really didn't need to go thru the expense and trouble of creating an HD set.

All they're mostly doing is using the same old SD content and putting "KDKA HD" along the sides.

This is it guys?

Where's the new technology here?

MeowMeow

06-17-09, 12:00 AM

If all you have is a UHF antenna then that may be your whole problem. The driven elements in your UHF antenna simply may not have enough gain to give your digital tuner any kind of a reliable signal to decode. Remember: there is like a factor of two in difference in the channel wavelengths between the high VHF band and even the lowest channel (14) in the UHF band.

That's not the entire story. I have a CM4228, and have no problem receiving WTOV, WWCP or WTRF. But WPCW might as well not exist. When I scan for it, even on strong tropo days, there is nothing there. At all. It might as well be a low power station in Ohio. I also get excellent reception on KDKA, WPGH and WPXI, all out of the north of the city.

On a 4228, ch 8 represents the worst gain for a VHF-Hi channel.

It's hard to picture a scenario where all these factors are true, but somehow WPCW isn't receivable.

I did send a message to WPCW asking what their situation is with power levels. I will post details of any response I get.

PA_MainyYak

06-17-09, 06:25 AM

They really didn't need to go thru the expense and trouble of creating an HD set.

All they're mostly doing is using the same old SD content and putting "KDKA HD" along the sides.

This is it guys?

Where's the new technology here?

Would you rather they install every last piece of equipment (and it is a lengthy list) before starting HD broadcasts? Yes, it's frustrating that KDKA is the last station in the market to complete their internal HD build out, but they are making progress. The new set and studio HD cameras are the first visible steps. Patience. :)

dfiler

06-17-09, 07:03 AM

Would you rather they install every last piece of equipment (and it is a lengthy list) before starting HD broadcasts? Yes, it's frustrating that KDKA is the last station in the market to complete their internal HD build out, but they are making progress. The new set and studio HD cameras are the first visible steps. Patience. :)I totally agree. While I've been critical of their delay in the past, today KDKA deserves accolades rather than complaints. They've finally made some progress in HD broadcasting.

It isn't surprising to see HD being phased in rather than happen all at once. Once the glitches are worked out, i'd expect them to roll in new changes. A completely new set and anchors in HD is a good start.

lifterguy

06-17-09, 01:13 PM

I rescanned last night, and it looks like WBGN's digital service continues to evolve. They are broadcasting in low power on RF-16, and the first time I scanned, they showed up in my guide as 16-1. Now they are showing up as 59-01 with three additional subchannels. 59-02 is Home Shopping Network, 59-03 is "Info" (Looks like it's all info-mercials) and 59-04 shows on my guide as "STUF" - but there is nothing there right now - just a black screen. The quality of the digital signal also seems better that when they first went on the air. (Earlier in the week there was lots of blocking on the screen - now that seems to be gone.)

ChuckZ

06-17-09, 01:21 PM

The new KDKA studio looks much better now. There is also a sense of depth to the picture that was not once there.

I hate how just about everything else is still in SD though. They're having a lot of digital glitches as well.

KNP 2516

06-17-09, 04:54 PM

nwiser

06-17-09, 05:26 PM

This WBGN thing is driving me nuts. My CM-7000 CECB refuses to assign them to their virtual channel of 59-X and when it gets through with the scan the WBGN 16-1 is overwritten with WQEX 16-1. it did get it right once last night but the channels wouldnt show a picture once they were assigned to 59-X. the signal was near 100% for each subchannel but it says "no program" (which is different from "no signal").

wallybarthman

06-17-09, 06:58 PM

WPCW is transmitting on a low power station until the end of the month, when KDKA's night light is turned off.

Then they are going to switch from the digital channel they are on now to a different channel.

That's good to know - I'll be interested to see how my ClearStream4 does picking up the signal. Anyone know anything definitive about QED's timetable other than "August 18th" or whatever?

benji15301

06-17-09, 09:26 PM

WPCW is transmitting on a low power station until the end of the month, when KDKA's night light is turned off.

Then they are going to switch from the digital channel they are on now to a different channel.

Where did you see this?

I believe this is incorrect information.

WPCW was given channel 11 to operate its digital channel on and that has nothing to do with KDKA's analog (nitelight) operation on channel 2.

Yes, KDKA will operate its nightlight programming for 30 days on analog 2 but I really don't know what one would have to do with the other.

dfiler

06-17-09, 09:29 PM

Where did you see this?

I believe this is incorrect information.

WPCW was given channel 11 to operate its digital channel on and that has nothing to do with KDKA's analog (nitelight) operation on channel 2.

Yes, KDKA will operate its nightlight programming for 30 days on analog 2 but I really don't know what one would have to do with the other.I too was baffled by that info. Not that I know it to be incorrect. But I did think I was up on the situation and had never heard of an impending change to the WPCW broadcast after it commenced on the 13th.

PA_MainyYak

06-18-09, 05:40 AM

I too was baffled by that info. Not that I know it to be incorrect. But I did think I was up on the situation and had never heard of an impending change to the WPCW broadcast after it commenced on the 13th.

WPCW is now on RF 11, and there they will remain. However, they are operating at lower power and from a temporary antenna on KDKA's tower. Once KD ends nightlight service, the RF 2 analog antenna at the top of the tower will be removed, WPCW's permanent antenna will be installed and they will be able to increase power to 30 kw.

pghturbo88

06-18-09, 05:41 AM

FYI, KDKA was broadcasting storm coverage on Analog 2 last night at about 10 PM. I guess they did that for the benefit of those who still didn't convert to digital. Analog 4 still ran the English/Spanish converter box show loop.

benji15301

06-18-09, 07:39 AM

benji15301

06-18-09, 07:40 AM

Trip in VA

06-18-09, 07:57 AM

It's a requirement of the nightlight service to carry local emergency information.

- Trip

Dave Kasperek

06-18-09, 08:14 AM

It's a requirement of the nightlight service to carry local emergency information.

- Trip

FCC rules for nightlight specifed that broadcast of emergency info is OPTIONAL for any nightlight station. The only emergency that must be transmitted would be a presidential activation of the EAS, which has never occurred.

Dave

dfiler

06-18-09, 08:21 AM

WPCW is now on RF 11, and there they will remain. However, they are operating at lower power and from a temporary antenna on KDKA's tower. Once KD ends nightlight service, the RF 2 analog antenna at the top of the tower will be removed, WPCW's permanent antenna will be installed and they will be able to increase power to 30 kw.

FCC rules for nightlight specifed that broadcast of emergency info is OPTIONAL for any nightlight station. The only emergency that must be transmitted would be a presidential activation of the EAS, which has never occurred.

DaveThanks for the clarifications!

Do you know what power level WPCW is currently broadcasting at?

Since last night's analog broadcast by KDKA was allowed under the nighlight program, I don't think there's anything to worry about in terms of KDKA removing their antenna from the top of the tower. Last night's broadcast doesn't indicate a delay of that program or the anticipated tower reconfiguration.

Trip in VA

06-18-09, 08:22 AM

benji15301

06-18-09, 09:28 AM

FCC rules for nightlight specifed that broadcast of emergency info is OPTIONAL for any nightlight station. The only emergency that must be transmitted would be a presidential activation of the EAS, which has never occurred.

Dave

They really need to give this analog stuff up.

I feel no sorrow for anyone who doesn't have the ability to watch their local channel(s).

They have been warned for 5 years about this pending change and those who aren't prepared are simply procrastinators. Period.

I don't even agree with the "Nightlight" programming.

If you don't get it by now---you'll never get it. It's just plain nonsense.

Get the free $ 40.00 government coupon folks!!! You're allowed up to 2 per household.

Cut off the analog once and for all.

PA_MainyYak

06-18-09, 11:01 AM

They really need to give this analog stuff up.

I feel no sorrow for anyone who doesn't have the ability to watch their local channel(s).

They have been warned for 5 years about this pending change and those who aren't prepared are simply procrastinators. Period.

I don't even agree with the "Nightlight" programming.

If you don't get it by now---you'll never get it. It's just plain nonsense.

Get the free $ 40.00 government coupon folks!!! You're allowed up to 2 per household.

Cut off the analog once and for all.

Patience.
Nightlight service is only for a maximum of 30 days.

SamVin

06-18-09, 11:24 AM

Getting back to a couple of other items, I think someone posted some info about WBGN's digital broadcast running on "low" power (And yes I could quote it to here, but I'm too lazy to go back and find it. :rolleyes:) I'd like to know if that means WBGN is not operating at their assigned 14 kw level as of yet? And if so, where the poster got this info, and if the first part is true, if they or anyone knows when WBGN will be going to "full" power? :confused:

----
The other item has to do with the antenna discussion. I concur that a CM4228 can and will pick up VHF frequencies. Heck if one sticks a lot of metal up in the air like a CM4228 it will possibly pick up all kinds of RF frequencies, but a CM4228 is designed primarily for UHF reception and that is where one will get it's best performance. (The original poster asking about WPCW reception that I answered stated he had I believe a double bowtie UHF antenna, which to me suggests it might be a small indoor unit, which limits its ability to provide sufficient signal levels at anything other than in the UHF band.)

So reception of frequencies outside what an antenna is designed to work with is more or less a crap shoot, and if one wants to receive broadcast channels in the VHF band along with the UHF band, then it is better to have an antenna designed to provide as much gain as possible in both broadcast bands. That is the best way to have a fighting chance of getting "good" TV reception especially around here where there with so many other factors that can limit OTA reception. :)

---
BTW for anyone considering installing an outdoor antenna here is a link to a copy of CM's antenna installation guide.
http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/AntInstallGuide.pdf
Some of the information in it is a little dated, but there is still plenty of good information in it for some one who never installed an outdoor antenna before. :cool:

ChuckZ

06-18-09, 02:37 PM

dxernut

06-18-09, 04:13 PM

salemtubes

06-18-09, 04:26 PM

Hope they don't make too many changes to their signal because since they went on last Friday night I receive them perfectly. I added a very small VHF/UHF combo to try to get WTOV and I now do at 50%, but was surprised at a great WPCW signal. Also WGBN comes in at 95%.

Replace the UHF/VHF combo antenna with a Winegard YA-1713, and you'll have a good shot at WTOV, WTRF and WWCP assuming you're on relatively high ground with no obstructions. It's just under $50.00 including shipping HERE (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=YA1713).

dxernut

06-19-09, 03:59 PM

Replace the UHF/VHF combo antenna with a Winegard YA-1713, and you'll have a good shot at WTOV, WTRF and WWCP assuming you're on relatively high ground with no obstructions. It's just under $50.00 including shipping HERE (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=YA1713).

Thanks for the info, I'll see if I still have time to cancel my Channel Master order of CM3018 which I got from Solid signal. This one works for 9 but not dependable. Purchased it at the beginning of the learning process.

salemtubes

06-19-09, 10:18 PM

Thanks for the info, I'll see if I still have time to cancel my Channel Master order of CM3018 which I got from Solid signal. This one works for 9 but not dependable. Purchased it at the beginning of the learning process.

Keep in mind that the YA-1713 is only designed to receive channels 7 through 13. It will not receive distant channels on 2 through 6. I mention this because of your handle. You won't be able to DX channels 2 through 6 with the YA-1713. There are no channels in the Pittsburgh area transmitting on channels 2 through 6; so there is really no need for the long VHF low elements. Your 91XG will handle the UHF channels just fine. You might also want to consider trying the Winegard HDP-269 (HERE (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=ANWHDP269)). It is a moderate gain preamplifier that is highly resistant to overload. You'll need a UVSJ (HERE (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ)) to combine the 91XG and YA-1713. Use the UVSJ instead of a common splitter.

Dave Kasperek

06-20-09, 01:12 PM

Dave Kasperek, are you guys ever going to correct your standard definition sports news? The hues and saturation are way off like some really bad NTSC footage. It's a bit jarring to see after you've just shown some beautiful HD studio shots.

hmmmm..... well yes, eventually we fix everything. Lately there's a lotta' things that seem to "need fixed" !

benji15301

06-21-09, 11:14 AM

hmmmm..... well yes, eventually we fix everything. Lately there's a lotta' things that seem to "need fixed" !

Good thing Dave you're not working over at KDKA.

Talk about someone who REALLY has their hands full with technical issues.

That's what happens when you procrastinate everything til' the last moment. Seems like they're reluctant to do any upgrades over there.

They're so far behind the other Pgh. stations that they may never catch up!!!

Bill Shenefelt

06-23-09, 08:58 AM

JK77

06-23-09, 02:34 PM

I haven't had a working TVGOS since right before WQED-13 signed off, and tried the techniques that were mentioned in other areas of AVSForum to no avail.

nwiser

06-23-09, 08:26 PM

for the past week WJAC has been out for me and WWCP has been in and out. I guess this means summer is officially here. :mad:

dmorrison

06-24-09, 09:45 AM

Holy Propagation, Batman! That HUGH high pressure system in the midwest is good for DTV DX reception. The leading edge of the pressure ridge is right over Indiana, causing atmospheric disturbances over northeast and north central Ohio. I rescanned my TV this morning around 6:30 am and EASILY pulled in all of the Cleveland stations as well as the Youngstown (which I don't normally get). After the scan, I was showing 35 channels available to me in Penn Hills!

Antenna wise, my setup is kinda pathetic. I use a flat-panel RCA indoor antenna for UHF and a 40M dipole which runs around the perimeter of my attic. Imagine the reception if I had GOOD antennas!

Anyway, the DX stations came in really strong around 6:30 am and dropped suddenly around 7:00 am. If this high pressure system is moving slowly enough, there may be some hope for DX reception again tonight (Wednesday).

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

wallybarthman

06-27-09, 02:00 PM

Just an update on the WPCW reception...

I swapped out an old power injector that had come with an RCA antenna for a Channel Master 7777 Pre-Amp hooked to a ClearStream 4 Antenna coupled with a Motorola Signal Booster (+15 db) and I am getting WPCW clear as anything with a good signal level

myoda

06-28-09, 10:34 PM

Since the Pittsburgh are has gone all digital (except for a couple of broadcasts to tell people to get boxes) is there a way locally that actually works to receive TVGOS OTA in sets that have analog TVGuide(TVGOS) chips? The TV guide gets it's feed on my toshiba from analog channel 13 PBS and on my LG 3410A recorder from analog channel 2 (CBS). Anyone locally using a DTVPal to convert the digital TVGOS signal to analog to reset their tv guides? In some other areas it causes the LG to lock up after a day or two but I have no idea if this is a problem here or not HELP!

Hi Bill:

Check with Toshiba to see if there is a firmware upgrade that will allow TVGOS to accept a digital signal for your guide data. After new f/w was installed on my tv (Mits WD-Y65), and DVR (Sony DHG-HDD 250), I have not have any major issues with downloading digital guide data from KDKA on the TV and DVR.

WB3LEQ

06-29-09, 02:12 PM

Soon2Bdark

06-29-09, 11:41 PM

A while back, I talked to a guy who'd bought a new LCD-TV and a simple vhf-uhf outdoor antenna, which he installed at his weekend camp in Brookville.
He told me that he was getting every one of the digital Pittsburgh channels, including channels 4-1 and 4-2. :p
That claim seemed very odd to me, since I can't even hold a solid signal on channel 4 with any regularity here above the Allegheny River in Northern Allegheny County. :confused:
I checked TVFool.com, and I saw that the guy should only be getting one PBS channel at his camp, so I seriously doubted his lofty claim. :(
He was adamant that he was getting everything from 2 - 53. He even told me that he watched Airwolf on RTN that evening. :p
I thought for some time about how he might have gotten those signals all the way up there. :confused:
Then it dawned on me. I asked if he remembered what the weather was like when he installed his TV antenna. He said he'd just finished aiming it a few hours before a thunder storm rolled through. :o
The next time he went up, he only got PBS on channel 3. :(

MeowMeow

06-29-09, 11:50 PM

Can't blame the guy. Every one of wants to be the guy whose system is too cool for everyone else. But, yeah, Brookville's a real stretch, especially out in the camping areas (which means he's probably closer to Clear Creek State Park than Brookville).

Too bad. Some day, some lucky guy will be the one who gets stable reception 80 mi away in a wooded valley.

Gevo

07-01-09, 11:15 PM

benji15301

07-02-09, 09:58 AM

WPCW comes in here with no issues in South Eastern Butler County. I have a 20+ year old attic mounted antenna from Radio Shack. Don't know the model number. WTOV 9 is also very good, usually watch their RTN due to the different programming, specifically Airwolf and Emergency. Channel 6 and 8 have now gone to spotty with the season change. So no more ABC here since 4 is not viewable in these parts. So much for the once the analog shuts down, the digital signals may travel more freely theory. If anything, they have gotten worse, but could be the season change.

When in Cincinnati recently, I noticed that several of their stations have 4 and 5 sub channels. How many can be used before the picture starts to degrade? They also had a different network called THIStv. Somewhat on the order of RTN but with more movies. Would make a nice addition to our market.

Everytime you add a subchannel, you have to take away bandwidth from the main channel. It doesn't necessarily mean in equal increments, though. That is to say that when a signal carries 2 subchannels, that each channel has to have exactly the same amount of bandwidth. It's up to the engineer to decide.

upzdayzm

07-02-09, 02:16 PM

THISTV here is a link to bring us up to date on their programming http://www.tvweek.com/news/2008/11/viewers_discovering_this_tv.php

dxernut

07-02-09, 03:24 PM

WPCW comes in here with no issues in South Eastern Butler County. I have a 20+ year old attic mounted antenna from Radio Shack. Don't know the model number. WTOV 9 is also very good, usually watch their RTN due to the different programming, specifically Airwolf and Emergency. Channel 6 and 8 have now gone to spotty with the season change. So no more ABC here since 4 is not viewable in these parts. So much for the once the analog shuts down, the digital signals may travel more freely theory. If anything, they have gotten worse, but could be the season change.

When in Cincinnati recently, I noticed that several of their stations have 4 and 5 sub channels. How many can be used before the picture starts to degrade? They also had a different network called THIStv. Somewhat on the order of RTN but with more movies. Would make a nice addition to our market.

Thanks for passing the interesting information on of THIStv. Find it interesting that you receive WTOV (HOW STRONG ) with an attic antenna. Do you get any WGBN 16dig ? I'm only 39 miles away from WTOV and don't get dependable reception,but WJAC and WNPB always come in strong.

wallybarthman

07-02-09, 10:51 PM

When in Cincinnati recently, I noticed that several of their stations have 4 and 5 sub channels. How many can be used before the picture starts to degrade? They also had a different network called THIStv. Somewhat on the order of RTN but with more movies. Would make a nice addition to our market.

It also depends on whether we are talking SD or HD channels as well. If you've got just SD channels you can put quite a few (4 or 5 at least) without worrying about losing quality. If you've got an HD channel which will consume most of your bandwidth, then you're pushing it a bit to go beyond one or at most two.

wallybarthman

07-02-09, 10:52 PM

Another WPCW update regarding it's low-power status. I e-mailed them today to see if they were still running at low power or not (Because I wasn't getting the signal anymore). Here's what they told me.

"WPCW-DT signed on June 12 at low power, but power was increased to maximum on the current antenna on June 26, 2009.

Please keep in mind that WPCW-DT is a VHF station, actually on Channel 11, not UHF like all others currently in Pittsburgh. You must have a VHF antenna to properly receive it."

myoda

07-02-09, 11:07 PM

It also depends on whether we are talking SD or HD channels as well. If you've got just SD channels you can put quite a few (4 or 5 at least) without worrying about losing quality. If you've got an HD channel which will consume most of your bandwidth, then you're pushing it a bit to go beyond one or at most two.
From Broadcasting & Cable:

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/307399-Broadcasters_HD_Squeeze_Play.php

Broadcasters' HD Squeeze Play
Stations weigh picture quality versus multicasting opportunities
By Glen Dickson -- Broadcasting & Cable, July 2, 2009

In this story:
Live and let live

For years, broadcasters have told consumers seeking the best high-definition picture quality to use an antenna to receive signals over-the-air, instead of relying on a cable or satellite operator to deliver the programming.

That's because many multichannel operators have recompressed, or “rate-shaped,” broadcasters' HD video to reduce the bandwidth needed to pass along the signal. For example, a cable operator might receive an 18 megabit-per-second HD stream at the headend and recompress it to 15 Mbps before passing it down the pipe. So, receiving the signal directly over-the-air would ensure that the viewer got exactly what the station transmitted.

But increasingly it is local broadcasters, not multichannel operators, that are degrading their hi-def picture quality. The culprit is multicasting, i.e., transmitting digital subchannels alongside the primary HD stream within a station's 19.4 Mbps digital TV pipe. While such subchannels are finally starting to gain traction and generate meaningful revenues (see Station to Station, June 22), many are doing so at the expense of the high-definition images that were the primary impetus for the DTV standard. Engineers and HD aficionados note, with considerable irony, that while there is far more HD content available today, the relative picture quality may not be as good as the first HD broadcasts more than a decade ago.

Multicasting has long been a part of the digital TV system. Most engineers say it is perfectly feasible to simultaneously transmit one high-quality HD stream alongside one or two standard-definition streams, particularly for ABC and Fox affiliates that use the 720-line progressive HD format instead of the more bandwidth-intensive 1080-line interlace format favored by CBS and NBC. But some stations are now broadcasting three subchannels alongside their main HD feed. Others have gone as far as multiplexing two high-definition feeds, along with a third standard-def feed, in their DTV channel.

Encoder vendors may have their own guidelines for how many bits a given picture format should receive to maintain quality. But it is up to individual stations to decide how hard to crank the compression dial.

“Everybody has a particular picture quality in their brain that they think is acceptable,” says Matthew Goldman, VP of technology for Tandberg. “It's a gray area. Some customers are adamant: 'It has to be pristine.' Some will say, 'You know what, this is still really good quality, and we need to do this to provide multiple services.”

The pressure on picture quality is bound to increase later this year when some stations launch mobile DTV services to be received by cellphones and other portable devices. Engineers estimate these services will consume 3.5 to 6 Mbps of the DTV pipe, due to the robust forward-error-correction technology used in the proposed ATSC-M/H standard. So, stations that want to offer mobile streams will look to minimize their HD bitrate as much as possible.
Live and let live

Perhaps the best example of the current HD squeeze is Live Well HD, a new high-definition, lifestyle-focused subchannel launched by the 10 ABC owned-and-operated stations in late April. ABC O&Os like WABC New York had already been transmitting two 480i standard-def subchannels—generally a local news channel and an AccuWeather channel—alongside their primary 720p HD stream, with no major impact to HD picture quality. But when ABC stations replaced the news channel with Live Well HD and began transmitting it as a second 720p HD program stream at the same time they were broadcasting National Basketball Association playoff games, the primary HD picture suffered significantly.

Viewer complaints flooded into stations as well as enthusiast Websites such as the AV Science Forum, where HD experts accused ABC of destroying its HD picture quality and derided both HD streams as looking no better than widescreen SD.

Since then, ABC engineers have tweaked the compression parameters on their Harris NetVX encoders, devoting more bits to the primary HD channel and reducing the bits that Live Well HD gets. From watching WABC, these changes appear to have eliminated major problems on the primary ABC program stream. But Live Well HD is still subject to frequent compression artifacts. Moreover, many HD purists say ABC's HD primary service is now significantly “softer” than the HD fare from CBS, NBC and Fox.

According to Dave Converse, VP of engineering for the ABC station group, the way the NetVX encoders are now set across the group gives the primary ABC channel an average of 11 Mbps, peaking as high as 14, while Live Well HD averages around 6.5 Mbps. The Local AccuWeather Channel is delivered at an average bitrate of 1.5 Mbps; it is hard-coded at a constant bitrate at some stations and statistically multiplexed with the two HDs at others. Converse believes that setup delivers good picture quality for the primary feed and still gives enough bits to Live Well, whose “talking head”-type material isn't as demanding.

“We have a set of rules, and No. 1 is 'Do no harm to the D-1 channel,'” Converse says. “We think we've accomplished that.”

While the ABC-owned stations are the first big-market outlets to multiplex two HDs, a number of small-market stations have already taken the leap. Usually, this involves a Big Four affiliate picking up a secondary affiliation, such as a CBS affiliate adding a CW or MyNetwork TV affiliation that didn't previously exist in the market. These stations have generally multiplexed two 720p streams because doing 1080i streams isn't really feasible, even with the latest MPEG-2 encoders.

Vendors say there are a few examples of a station transmitting both a 1080i and a 720p. One is KXII, Gray Television's station in Sherman, Texas, which has been using Harmonic encoders since 2006 to simultaneously broadcast CBS programming in 1080i, Fox in 720p and MyNetwork TV as a 480i SD stream. The three streams are stat-muxed together, with the 1080i CBS stream typically getting the priority when it comes to bits.

“Sometimes when there's a lot of activity going on, such as sports against sports, you may see a little bit of fighting for bits,” says Dennis Kite, KXII co-chief engineer. “But overall, it works out real well during normal programming.”

KXII probably doesn't have any room left to transmit mobile DTV programming. But parent Gray, like many other large station groups, is a big believer in mobile DTV's potential. And vendors say they are already fielding inquiries from customers about how they might incorporate ATSC-M/H streams into their existing multiplexes. In that vein, Harmonic's new Electra 8000 encoder already supports ATSC-M/H encoding alongside HD and SD encoding, all within the same box.

How stations will balance HD picture quality versus existing SD subchannels and new services like ATSC-M/H remains to be seen. The answer will likely be decided by whatever attracts the largest number of viewers, many of whom frankly aren't as discerning over picture quality as the HD buffs weighing in on the AV Science Forum.

According to John Mailhot, technology architect for Harris' infrastructure and networking business unit, “The fundamental challenge for a TV broadcaster is, 'I've got a 6 MHz channel—now how do I find a business model that works for me to make money with that channel?'”

E-mail comments to glen.dickson@reedbusiness.com

JK77

07-02-09, 11:09 PM

THISTV here is a link to bring us up to date on their programming http://www.tvweek.com/news/2008/11/viewers_discovering_this_tv.php

Sinclair Broadcasting is carrying it on their stations. I just saw it on their flagship WBFF-45 Baltimore this past weekend, and usually catch it off AMC 3 or Galaxy 18 at home.

It'd be nice if Sinclair got rid of one of those SD channels on 22 or 53 and put THIS on. They can't raise the E/I content issue like they did with The Tube since it does have some E/I programming.

benji15301

07-03-09, 12:34 AM

THISTV here is a link to bring us up to date on their programming http://www.tvweek.com/news/2008/11/viewers_discovering_this_tv.php

http://www.this.tv/

Inundated

07-03-09, 05:15 PM

(Quoting Broadcasting & Cable)
While the ABC-owned stations are the first big-market outlets to multiplex two HDs, a number of small-market stations have already taken the leap. Usually, this involves a Big Four affiliate picking up a secondary affiliation, such as a CBS affiliate adding a CW or MyNetwork TV affiliation that didn't previously exist in the market. These stations have generally multiplexed two 720p streams because doing 1080i streams isn't really feasible, even with the latest MPEG-2 encoders.

Of course, one of these stations is viewable in a pretty decent chunk of the Pittsburgh market - WKBN-DT in Youngstown, with 27.1 CBS HD and 27.2 Fox HD...

nwiser

07-04-09, 05:54 PM

what I would like is for tv stations to send out the proper aspect ratio data so that those with tv's or converter boxes that set it based on the signal from the station will be able to do it properly. I'm getting tired of seeing things that are in 4:3 format being postage stamped when the proper signal from the station would make my box automatically zoom it. Additionally I get a similar effect on WPXI with programs (usually late night) that are shot in 16:9 but are displayed in 4:3 format (cropped).

It's not that I'm lazy...while I can change it manually, which is what I usually have to do (and is how I found out some shows are 16:9 and not 4:3), it would just be nice for my boxes/tv's to be able to do what they were designed to and do it automatically. Some channels do have it right with the right format signal being sent out...but there are still some who dont.

MeowMeow

07-05-09, 12:19 PM

Trip in VA

07-05-09, 12:52 PM

They filed a covering app for the 30 kW signal, so it should be on the air now.

- Trip

Sammer

07-05-09, 08:18 PM

They filed a covering app for the 30 kW signal, so it should be on the air now.

- Trip
Is that for the DA at 258.9 meters or or the Non-Directional at 295?

Trip in VA

07-05-09, 08:32 PM

The directional one.

- Trip

wallybarthman

07-06-09, 09:12 AM

What is the status of WPCW?

I've seen conflicting claims that they are at full-power and others saying they won't be full power until the VHF antenna for KDKDA comes down.

It strikes me as weird if it is full power, because I can get WWCP solid all the time. I can get WTOV almost all of the time and WTRF half the time. But I have yet to lock WPCW at all. Even on heavy tropo days when WTRF comes in strong, my tuner is barely aware there is a signal on WPCW.

According to an email I received from KDKA/WPCW they are now at full power. What antenna are you using?

dmorrison

07-06-09, 09:49 AM

what I would like is for tv stations to send out the proper aspect ratio data so that those with tv's or converter boxes that set it based on the signal from the station will be able to do it properly.

This is the next big thing that stations have to work on. This is a piece of PSIP information called AFD (Active Format Descriptor).

Here's what ATSC says about AFD:

"The AFD is carried in the user data of the video Elementary Stream. After each
sequence start (and repeat sequence start) the default aspect ratio of the area
of interest is signalled by the sequence header and sequence display extension parameters.

After introduction, an AFD remains in effect until the next sequence start or
until another AFD is introduced. Receivers interpret the absence of AFD in a
sequence start to mean the active format is the same as the coded frame."

In English, AFD is sent by the content provider so that your receiver will automatically match the intended aspect ratio of the program being sent. Here's the rub...not all programs have AFD provided (as far as I know), and this includes commercials. So in theory, the programs that have AFD as a part of the PSIP will display properly while those with no AFD will either behave as the previous program did OR will have some sort of default AFD provided by the broadcaster.

I wish I could give you more information on AFD but this is about the best I can do for now.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

benji15301

07-06-09, 10:44 AM

What is the status of WPCW?

I've seen conflicting claims that they are at full-power and others saying they won't be full power until the VHF antenna for KDKDA comes down.

It strikes me as weird if it is full power, because I can get WWCP solid all the time. I can get WTOV almost all of the time and WTRF half the time. But I have yet to lock WPCW at all. Even on heavy tropo days when WTRF comes in strong, my tuner is barely aware there is a signal on WPCW.

Your profile gives us no idea where you're located.

Maybe it's a terrestrial issue.

Here in central Washington County, I get 98% signal from WPCW. There is no signal any stronger than that at my location.

nwiser

07-06-09, 08:35 PM

I wish I could give you more information on AFD but this is about the best I can do for now.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

Thanks Dave. Your response lets us know that stations out there are at least aware that things like this are an issue, even if the problem hasnt been resolved yet. That's half the battle.

MeowMeow

07-06-09, 11:07 PM

Trip in VA

07-06-09, 11:53 PM

Any strong FM signals nearby on 99-102 MHz?

- Trip

lutznct1

07-07-09, 12:06 AM

It could be worse; you could be closer and can't receive WPCW:(. I'm in the New Castle Area and I’ve yet to have it lock in once. I guess that's what you get with a side mounted antenna that doesn't clear the terrain. I just wish it would be sooner than a year for them to mount their new antenna at the top of the tower!

benji15301

07-07-09, 12:45 AM

Any strong FM signals nearby on 99-102 MHz?

- Trip

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/locate?select=city&city=Punxsutawney+&state=pa&band=FM&is_lic=Y&is_cp=Y&is_fl=Y&is_fx=Y&is_fb=Y&format=&dx=0&radius=&freq=&sort=freq&sid=

Trip in VA

07-07-09, 12:47 AM

Even though there isn't one in that frequency range, I'd still say to try an FM trap if you haven't already. I've heard countless stories of FM traps helping upper-VHF reception.

- Trip

salemtubes

07-07-09, 03:08 AM

I'm in Punxsutawney. Using a CM 4228, CM 7777, etc.

Here's what gets me: I have no problem receiving WWCP. KDKA is in fact my second strongest signal, next to WJAC. I get WTOV often enough, and WTRF intermittently.

Only on strong tropo days is my tuner even aware there is a channel on rf 11.

It doesn't make a ton of sense to me. If WPCW is pushing 30 kw, that should be a nothing signal for me to receive. At my location, TV Fool says WPCW should be slightly stronger than WWCP. And WPCW should be a full 20 db stronger than WTOV!

I don't get it. If there were some terrain issue, KDKA should be muched. It isn't. It's incredibly strong (I pick KDKA up on an almost 180 degree swath). If it were an antenna issue, why would WWCP and WTOV work as expected, but not WPCW?

It's downright perplexing to me.

Are you using a high band VHF antenna like the Winegard YA-1713 or Antennacraft Y10-7-13 in conjunction with the 4228 or just the 4228? It is doubtful that the 4228 will receive rf channel 11 at 60 or so miles out from the transmitter without the help of favorable atmospheric conditions. FWIW, I receive WPCW with a 4228/YA-1713/7777 setup at 53 miles from the transmitter.

wallybarthman

07-07-09, 07:49 AM

I'm in Punxsutawney. Using a CM 4228, CM 7777, etc.

Here's what gets me: I have no problem receiving WWCP. KDKA is in fact my second strongest signal, next to WJAC. I get WTOV often enough, and WTRF intermittently.

Only on strong tropo days is my tuner even aware there is a channel on rf 11.

It doesn't make a ton of sense to me. If WPCW is pushing 30 kw, that should be a nothing signal for me to receive. At my location, TV Fool says WPCW should be slightly stronger than WWCP. And WPCW should be a full 20 db stronger than WTOV!

I don't get it. If there were some terrain issue, KDKA should be muched. It isn't. It's incredibly strong (I pick KDKA up on an almost 180 degree swath). If it were an antenna issue, why would WWCP and WTOV work as expected, but not WPCW?

It's downright perplexing to me.

Yeah a CM 4228 isn't going to do it in this case - it's mainly designed for UHF with high VHF as an after-thought. You'll need to add a VHF antenna (like one of the ones suggested) to have a chance at WPCW consistently. The good news is that your CM 7777 is designed to do exactly that (you'll just need to flip the switch inside of the CM 7777 to separate inputs). Also, your CM 7777 has an FM-trap built-in and by default it's set to on, so unless you turned it off you have an FM trap, which means that its an antenna issue.

MeowMeow

07-07-09, 08:30 AM

I've always gotten excellent VHF reception with the 4228. A VHF-Hi antenna is the eventual checkdown, but I'll try the quicker solution of an FM trap first.

My main concern is that I will waste the effort to put up a VHF-Hi antenna and then somehow still don't get WPCW.

Just so folks know where I stand, TVFool predicts WPCW will come in at -97 db at my location. Which is a strong enough signal to receive on a 4228 with pre-amp all the time.

MeowMeow

07-07-09, 08:36 AM

Also, your CM 7777 has an FM-trap built-in and by default it's set to on, so unless you turned it off you have an FM trap, which means that its an antenna issue.

I turned it off because turning it off improved a marginal signal on WTAJ (it has all manner of multipath issues here, and locks in a very narrow area).

Sammer

07-07-09, 10:02 AM

MeowMeow

07-07-09, 11:05 AM

-97 db is pretty low and with the problems stations are having with VHF probably not enough. Also the directional pattern for WPCW is pointed towards the southeast.

Based on what TV Fool is showing, stations don't become problematic for me until the -110 to -115 dbm range. Anything better than -110 has been rock solid for me.

salemtubes

07-07-09, 11:25 AM

Click HERE (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html), and go to the bottom of the page. There is a graph of the 4228's gain on VHF channels. As you can see, the 4228's gain drops significantly within channel 11's bandwidth. It would also be a good idea to engage the 7777's FM trap if you add a high band VHF antenna because the harmonics generated by FM band stations splash all over high band VHF channels.

I'd probably go with the Antennacraft high band antenna because the YA-1713's graph shows a significant drop on channel 13. As of now, WQED plans to move its transmission from rf channel 38 to rf channel 13 later this year.

Raven654

07-07-09, 10:00 PM

salemtubes

07-07-09, 10:15 PM

dunno if this is the right place to ask this question or not.

I just recently started to pick up WPCW. Problem is I have dishnetwork and their is no Guide Information for CW Programming. All it says is Digital Service. I downloaded Guide data still keeps saying Digital Service. Is their a way to fix this or is this problem at Dish's End?

If you pay for local channels, you will receive the guide data for those channels only. All other local stations received OTA will show on the guide as "Digital Service". You'll have to create manual timers to record these stations if you have a Dish DVR. With the exception of the OTA only DTVPal DVR, Dish Network receivers do not use station's PSIP data.

Raven654

07-07-09, 10:37 PM

If you pay for local channels, you will receive the guide data for those channels only. All other local stations received OTA will show on the guide as "Digital Service". You'll have to create manual timers to record these stations if you have a Dish DVR. With the exception of the OTA only DTVPal DVR, Dish Network receivers do not use station's PSIP data.

I do get WPCW from Dishnetwork as well. It should have the programming on the guide but it doesn't.

pghturbo88

07-08-09, 08:24 PM

Dave Kasperek

07-10-09, 04:02 PM

ProjectSHO89

07-10-09, 04:55 PM

That is some GREAT technical information on those graphs! Thanks for sharing!

Don't accept those graphs as Gospel.

While they are useful, the modelling software is somewhat limited in certain areas and is subject to errors in the final result. Relying on suspect data isn't a particularly good methid upon which to bas a recommendation.

That channel 13 dip on the YA1713's graph is known to not exist in the "real" world.

PA_MainyYak

07-10-09, 08:24 PM

pghturbo88

07-13-09, 10:12 AM

WTAE will end analog broadcasting on VHF Channel 4 just before the stroke of midnight on Sunday night July 12.

A fitting final signoff announcement is planned for the few souls who may be watching the last moments of free, full power, analog, over the air TV in Pittsburgh.

Dave

Just to be able to say "I saw it," I stayed up for this. WTAE played the national anthem using (what I assume is) an old late night sign-off video, then they played a short clip of a Looney Tunes cartoon ending in which two island castaways say "Don't forget to write," and the signature Looney Tunes "That's all folks!" Then there was a brief black and white test pattern with the Indian chief in the top part, and after a few seconds, the picture went to snow.

I was really hoping for something similar to KDKA's montage, but then again, turning off the nightlight is really no big deal. When I surfed down to analog channel 2, it was also snow, so I guess I missed their sign-off.

dfiler

07-13-09, 10:24 AM

pghturbo88

07-13-09, 04:28 PM

This morning WTAE had a brief segment on the analog shutoff.

It was interesting to see both the interior and exterior of the transmitter facility. Ironically, the only glimpse of this I ever got... was recorded moments before the gear was turned off for the very last time.

Here's the clip

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/video/20039200/index.html

Note forum contributor Dave K. in video! I'm wondering where those components will be "recycled."

SamVin

07-15-09, 11:20 AM

Has anyone else noticed that WPGH has discontinued their SD format broadcast on their 53-2 sub-channel?

After all the recent posts about Sinclair carrying This TV on a sub-channel in their other markets, could this be the first step in preparing to introduce This TV in the Pittsburgh market? :confused:

If so it would be great to have another choice for programs even if they are only older programs like on RTV/RTN. :)

And for what it's worth - WPMY is still broadcasting in SD format on their 22-2 sub-channel.

benji15301

07-15-09, 11:34 AM

From Eric O'Brien's great website: http://www.pbrtv.com/blog/index.html check it out.

DT Signals still not settled in

By Eric O Brien
Pittsburgh:

All local TV stations should be airing in digital as of late Sunday Night. KDKA-TV (2; RF 25) and WTAE-TV (4; RF 51) kept their analog signals on with a "nightlight" message for 30 days following the official shut off on June 12.

By August 18, WQED-TV (13; RF 38) will be switching back to Digital 13 while sister station WQEX-TV (16; RF 26) will transfer to RF 38. RF 16 is being used by WBGN-TV (59).

Confused yet? Good...cause there's more.

Several stations are applying to the FCC to build repeater signals to get their digital service to cover the areas the analog service once covered.

* KDKA-TV (2; RF 25) would like RF 31 in Morgantown, West Virginia and RF 40 in Johnstown, Pennsylvania. It's possible that 31 will extend into Forward Township while 40 will reach Irwin.
* WTAE-TV (4; RF 51) is looking for two repeaters on RF 22 - both within Pittsburgh city limits. Both would be used to cover Allegheny County with one extending North to Butler and the other extending south to Monessen.
* WPXI-TV (11; RF 48) applied for RF 21 in Derry Township, Westmoreland County; RF 23 in Uniontown and RF 30 in New Castle. RF 21 might cover Westmoreland while 23 could reach up into McKeesport.
* WPCW (19; RF 11) is looking at RF 27 for Johnstown. (When WPCW was WNPA, it was licensed to Johnstown before moving to Jeannette in 1997.)

There are no plans to expand signals for WQED, WQEX, WPMY (22; RF 42), WPCB (40; RF 50), or WPGH (53; RF 43).

With all of these changes one still asks, "What was the advantage of digital TV again?"

dfiler

07-15-09, 11:50 AM

Pittsburgh repeaters for WTAE? That'd be great! WTAE's transmitter is so far from the others that many city residents have to re-aim their antenna or install a 2nd antenna just for WTAE.

Worst thing about the digital transition so far?
KDKA finally goes HD with their local newscasts... just days after Sonni Abatta's last newscast for KDKA. They might as well go back to standard def. ;)

SamVin

07-15-09, 12:44 PM

From Eric O'Brien's great website: ...
With all of these changes one still asks, "What was the advantage of digital TV again?"
Well, first off even under analog TV alot of stations used repeaters to provide OTA coverage in more rural areas.

And given the fact that the FCC put new lower restrictions on the maximum power levels even the major stations can use, it makes sense for these major stations to provide comparable coverage in to the same areas where their old analog signal could reach (even if they had new areas opened up for them, as in the case of WPCW-DT).

Plus a digital repeater allows them to still identify themselves by their "branded" station call letters and station numbers thanks to the PSIP even when transmitting on a completely different broadcast channel. So if someone is watching KDKA 2.1, how would they tell they are receiving it on UHF channel 25 or channel 31, unless they go digging in to the guts of their TV receiver?

And finally with the reduction in finances most stations are facing during the current recession, the more service area a station can promise to provide gives then a leg-up in attracting some advertisers.

dmorrison

07-16-09, 09:43 AM

Has anyone else noticed that WPGH has discontinued their SD format broadcast on their 53-2 sub-channel?

I don't think they discontinued it...I think their PSIP is messed up. The 53-2 virtual channel disappeared. I rescanned last night and it showed up on 43-2. Go figure.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering

JK77

07-16-09, 01:57 PM

* KDKA-TV (2; RF 25) would like RF 31 in Morgantown, West Virginia and RF 40 in Johnstown, Pennsylvania. It's possible that 31 will extend into Forward Township while 40 will reach Irwin.
* WPXI-TV (11; RF 48) applied for RF 21 in Derry Township, Westmoreland County; RF 23 in Uniontown and RF 30 in New Castle. RF 21 might cover Westmoreland while 23 could reach up into McKeesport.
* WPCW (19; RF 11) is looking at RF 27 for Johnstown. (When WPCW was WNPA, it was licensed to Johnstown before moving to Jeannette in 1997.)

It was WTWB when it first returned to the air in Johnstown.

Lovely, I'll have duplicates of stations whose main signal I already get perfectly. How about some LDs for WJAC and WTAJ which I lost? :D

PA_MainyYak

07-16-09, 02:29 PM

It was WTWB when it first returned to the air in Johnstown.

Lovely, I'll have duplicates of stations whose main signal I already get perfectly. How about some LDs for WJAC and WTAJ which I lost? :D

WJAC is asking for three translators, although none are likely to help your situation. They want RF 22 in Altoona, RF 30 in Bedford, and RF 26 in DuBois.
WTAJ has not filed any translator requests.

pghturbo88

07-16-09, 06:31 PM

nwiser

07-16-09, 09:54 PM

Not understanding as much as some of you do about DTV, I'm left wondering why the stations who want repeaters are applying for different broadcast frequencies for the repeaters than the frequency that their main broadcast is on? For those that pick up channels in several markets, isnt multiple frequencies likely to cause reception problems if two different stations in different markets occupy the same real frequency?

Also, wasnt the digital transitoin supposed to somehow save the stations money? If due to the lower power restrictions, they have to end up setting up repeaters in order to have similar coverage as they did with analog, isnt it kinda costing them as much if not more than it did previously?

MeowMeow

07-16-09, 10:06 PM

Not understanding as much as some of you do about DTV, I'm left wondering why the stations who want repeaters are applying for different broadcast frequencies for the repeaters than the frequency that their main broadcast is on?

Because true repeaters (same channel, different tower) are still a bit experimental. Translators (different channel, different towers) have been the norm for decades.

The story goes the FCC is going to let WPSU build a true repeater around Altoona. Once the FCC has a better sense of how such repeaters perform, you may see a significant change in how stations go about filling in coverage gaps.

For now, they're doing it the old fashioned way.

JK77

07-17-09, 02:12 AM

WJAC is asking for three translators, although none are likely to help your situation. They want RF 22 in Altoona, RF 30 in Bedford, and RF 26 in DuBois.
WTAJ has not filed any translator requests.

I wouldn't expect any JAC translators near me, but perhaps TAJ will decide to add one in Johnstown eventually.

SamVin

07-17-09, 02:39 PM

Because true repeaters (same channel, different tower) are still a bit experimental. Translators (different channel, different towers) have been the norm for decades.
Thanks. I was always a bit confused on the differences between what a broadcast repeater versus a translator was. You're simple explanation cleared it up quite nicely. ;)

jigwatts

07-17-09, 03:05 PM

I live in Youngstown and WTAE is definitely the weakest signal because, for me, it's on the wrong side of Pittsburgh. Will these repeaters improve my signal at all?

SamVin

07-17-09, 08:16 PM

That's difficult to say.

According to the FCC database the WTAE translator will be running at less than 10 kw ERP and have a polarization pattern to direct most of that power towards the north and east, i.e. towards Butler and Armstrong counties.

But then you never know, since it still might provide some improvement for you.

After all I get fairly consistent fringe reception of WFMJ 21-1 & -2 (on UHF 20), and even at times WKBN 27-1 & -2 (on UHF 41), when neither TV Fool nor the FCC database indicates I should be picking up those signals at all.

Raven654

07-17-09, 09:56 PM

Anyone know why WPMY(MyNetwork TV) stopped broadcasting in 5.1? A few months ago it was broadcasting in 5.1.

benji15301

07-18-09, 08:50 PM

Anyone know why WPMY(MyNetwork TV) stopped broadcasting in 5.1? A few months ago it was broadcasting in 5.1.

Since Sinclair Broadcasting filed for bankruptcy, they have had to scale back on a lot of aspects of doing business.

The technical end wasn't immune.

They announced today have scaled back their audio from 5.1 to 4.9. :rolleyes:

usakangy

07-19-09, 06:35 PM

I have an RCA STB7766C digital to analog converter box. I live about 25 miles NW of Pittsburgh and am able to get KDKA on 2.1, WPXI on 11.1, RTV on 11.2. My scanner picks up WTAE on 4.1 occassionally but that is rare. I have in indoor digital antenna connected to the converter. I also pick up WKBN on 27.1. I wish to pick up WTOV on 9.1, but instead I get their RTN9 broadcast on 9.1, and nothing on 9.2. The station guide on the converter displays the actual WTOV programming on 9.1, but the RTN video on 9.1. I have cleared eveyrthing out of my box and tried re-scanning from fresh and get the same results. I have tried a different converter box, but cannot pick up 9.X channels at all. Any ideas?? Thanks!

SamVin

07-20-09, 06:24 PM

Does this "indoor digital antenna" have the capability to pick up VHF TV stations, or is it only a "UHF" type antenna?

You should know WTOV's digital signal is in the upper VHF band (that's the television broadcast channels 7 though 13.) Currently in the local PGH area, WTRF (7-1, -2, -3) broadcasts on VHF 7; WWCP (8-1, -2) uses VHF 8; WTOV (9-1, -2) use VHF 9; WPCW (19-1) uses VHF 11; and some time in August, WQED (13-1, -2, -3), which currently broadcasts on UHF 38, will migrate back down to their old analog channel assignment on VHF 13.

My suggestion is you should take a look at your antenna if you are having spotty receptions problems with your converter box. More than likely the antenna you have doesn't have the ability to provide a consistent enough signal for your box to work with.

Two good places to start to see what kind of antenna you need at your location, is www.antennaweb.org and www.TVFool.com. But remember, while these sites are useful for sizing an antenna, your actual mileage may vary. :)

SamVin

07-20-09, 06:45 PM

I don't think they discontinued it...I think their PSIP is messed up. The 53-2 virtual channel disappeared. I rescanned last night and it showed up on 43-2. Go figure.

Dave Morrison
WPXI Engineering
I don't know - I tried doing a direct channel entry to the 43-2 channel on my Zenith 901 box and got dumped right back in to the main 53-1 digital channel. It also didn't work with 43-3, 43-4, or virtual channels 53-2, 53-3 or 53-4 either.

In case you don't know about this capability in the Zenith DTV box, I can do a direct channel entry with the remote to tune in any channel (broadcast or virtual), even ones that have not been scanned in to the box. And if there is a signal there it can lock on, it displays it like it was scanned in to the box. I use this feature often to check for fringe stations that I only pick up occasionally, like this station out of Cleveland that broadcasts on UHF 17, and shows up as DTV 3-1, -2.

Mark Vidonic

07-20-09, 08:19 PM

Since Sinclair Broadcasting filed for bankruptcy, they have had to scale back on a lot of aspects of doing business.

The technical end wasn't immune.

They announced today have scaled back their audio from 5.1 to 4.9. :rolleyes:

They have not filed for bankruptcy.

JK77

07-20-09, 10:20 PM

I don't know - I tried doing a direct channel entry to the 43-2 channel on my Zenith 901 box and got dumped right back in to the main 53-1 digital channel.

I haven't received a 53-2 on my TV nor my converter boxes in about a week now.

pghturbo88

07-21-09, 12:17 PM

I haven't received a 53-2 on my TV nor my converter boxes in about a week now.

53-1 is all I get as well.

dfiler

07-21-09, 01:04 PM

Can anyone confirm if 53-1 is now delivering a higher bit-rate stream?

That would be my hope... that they eliminated 53-2 and returned that bandwidth to 53-1.

Trip in VA

07-21-09, 01:56 PM

dfiler

07-21-09, 02:08 PM

Doesn't matter. The bitrate of Fox HD content is controlled by the splicer. It doesn't matter whether WPGH has no, one, or 15 SD subs, the Fox network HD bitrate is the same, and the SD is shaped.

Only local content would be affected.Interesting! Can you explain more and also what you mean by "splicer"?

I would have assumed that the national HD feed was provided at a bit-rate at least as high as the maximum possible via ATSC. That way, stations without sub-channels would be making full use of the available bandwidth.

If I understand you correctly, WPGH is already broadcasting the national feed in it's full glory. Hmmm, I didn't think that was possible with sub-channels... unless the national feed was already a lower bit-rate than allowable on ATSC.

benji15301

07-21-09, 02:25 PM

They have not filed for bankruptcy.

Hey---it was just an attempt at some humor. That's all.

Yes, they didn't file (yet) for bankruptcy.

But news reports claim they're threatening to do so.

Geesh.

JK77

07-21-09, 03:02 PM

Here's the story: http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bal-bz.sinclair14jul14,0,2332940.story

Trip in VA

07-21-09, 06:46 PM

Interesting! Can you explain more and also what you mean by "splicer"?

I would have assumed that the national HD feed was provided at a bit-rate at least as high as the maximum possible via ATSC. That way, stations without sub-channels would be making full use of the available bandwidth.

If I understand you correctly, WPGH is already broadcasting the national feed in it's full glory. Hmmm, I didn't think that was possible with sub-channels... unless the national feed was already a lower bit-rate than allowable on ATSC.

Yeah, Fox's HD setup was designed to make it cheaper on the smaller affiliates. Since a lot of its affiliates are poorer stations that couldn't afford HD gear, they paid for and provide the splicer for stations to use with HD.

The splicer's HD feed is untouched from wherever Fox's HD encoder is to the time it gets to your TV except in some very rare cases (I think WKBN is one of those). It is sent from Fox at a variable bitrate of about 15.5 Mbps, leaving 3.5 Mbps for other services.

In this way, the station cannot destroy the network's HD quality. Any services besides Fox-HD are shaped to fit in the roughly 3 to 3.5 Mbps left over. It also means that it makes sense for Fox stations to have a subchannel, since the bandwidth is reserved either way.

I don't think My Network TV uses the splicer.

- Trip

dfiler

07-21-09, 10:35 PM

Thanks for the info. My intuition was apparently wrong...

Instead of broadcasting the maximum ATSC stream in order to ensure the highest quality, FOX instead passes a lesser stream small enough to allow sub-channels but thereby also ensuring that local affiliates won't screw the signal up by needing to down-sample to a lower bit-rate.

That makes me wonder... will Fox at some point change this policy when the technology is bullit-proof enough that local stations can be trusted to convert the signal when needed in order to make room for sub-channels. It would provide roughly 20% more bandwidth to the main channel when no sub-channels are being used.

(Sorry if I butchered the terminology. Hopefully my characterization of the situation is still correct. I'm technically savvy but definitely no broadcasting guru.)

Trip in VA

07-21-09, 10:52 PM

Your intuition describes what all the other networks do. Just not what Fox does.

I imagine that Mobile DTV will make use of the bandwidth currently reserved, not extra HD. I would not expect to see Fox's HD bandwidth go up, but you never know.

- Trip

Dave Kasperek

07-23-09, 04:28 PM

Here's the clip

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/video/20039200/index.html

Note forum contributor Dave K. in video! I'm wondering where those components will be "recycled."

I am told Ham radio ops can make good use of the Ch solid state amplifier modules. The rest is scrap metal...

Dave Kasperek

07-23-09, 05:36 PM

RF Hog

07-24-09, 07:39 AM

Sammer

07-24-09, 09:22 AM

Dave...

Any plans for WTAE to add more translators? WPXI is adding 3, KDKA/WPCW are adding 3 as well... it would be nice to get WTAE-DT here in the Laurel Highlands. You are the only digital TV station out of Pittsburgh that I can't get consistently!
Great question, the FCC coverage maps clearly show a problem of lost coverage for both WTAE and ABC in the Laurel Highlands.

Dave Kasperek

07-24-09, 11:33 AM

Dave...

Any plans for WTAE to add more translators? WPXI is adding 3, KDKA/WPCW are adding 3 as well... it would be nice to get WTAE-DT here in the Laurel Highlands. You are the only digital TV station out of Pittsburgh that I can't get consistently!

More translators are under consideration. That's all I can really say on that subject.

JK77

07-24-09, 09:58 PM

WPXI is adding 3, KDKA/WPCW are adding 3 as well... it would be nice to get WTAE-DT here in the Laurel Highlands. You are the only digital TV station out of Pittsburgh that I can't get consistently!

Are you on the eastern side of the Chestnut Ridge?

Now that they no longer have to protect WSFJ in Columbus, WTAE comes in for me with 9 out of 10 bars but I'm on the western side.

lutznct1

07-25-09, 11:35 AM

Is there any time frame for when the translator for WPXI (RF33) in New Castle will be up and running since the construction permit was approved? Just wondering, thanks!

RF Hog

07-26-09, 05:13 PM

Mark Vidonic

07-26-09, 11:44 PM

More translators are under consideration. That's all I can really say on that subject.

Dave, I'm curious as to if you guys ever considered the WPSX model, whereas they used one frequency, but they have (I think) 3 different towers throughout central PA that are able to monitor and change outputs accordingly as to minimize intereference.

benji15301

07-28-09, 09:20 AM

SamVin

07-28-09, 01:05 PM

Benji -
I can answer part of you question about WTAE.

Unless the FCC changes its policy, WTAE is at 1000 kilowatts ERP which is the the maximum power level it allows for any full power UHF DTV broadcast station. KDKA, WPXI, WPGH, and WPMY are also at 1000 kw ERP.

Unlike KDKA and WPXI, WPGH, WPMY and WTAE have a polarization pattern for their antennas. WTAE's pattern directs most of it's power away from the southeast, but from the FCC database it looks to me Washington county is situated in one of the higher level power lobes of the pattern.

I'd suggest you go to TV FOOL and get an OTA reception screen for your exact location. You can then click on the WTAE callsign in the tabulated data and get a horizontal terrain graphic. This graphic is like a map that shows the signal level as a color gradient as it is broadcast from the station to your location, and it might show you what is blocking or interfering with WTAE's signal.

Sammer

08-01-09, 11:32 AM

Dave, I'm curious as to if you guys ever considered the WPSX model, whereas they used one frequency, but they have (I think) 3 different towers throughout central PA that are able to monitor and change outputs accordingly as to minimize intereference.
I would imagine a distributed transmission system (DTS) on channel 51 would be problematic for WTAE because of the possibility of interference with WPCB on channel 50. Perhaps they could reuse channel 22 for another translator.

benji15301

08-03-09, 12:46 PM

WPCW comes in here with no issues in South Eastern Butler County. I have a 20+ year old attic mounted antenna from Radio Shack. Don't know the model number. WTOV 9 is also very good, usually watch their RTN due to the different programming, specifically Airwolf and Emergency. Channel 6 and 8 have now gone to spotty with the season change. So no more ABC here since 4 is not viewable in these parts. So much for the once the analog shuts down, the digital signals may travel more freely theory. If anything, they have gotten worse, but could be the season change.

When in Cincinnati recently, I noticed that several of their stations have 4 and 5 sub channels. How many can be used before the picture starts to degrade? They also had a different network called THIStv. Somewhat on the order of RTN but with more movies. Would make a nice addition to our market.

You got it!

WTAE-TV (4; D 51) will drop the all-weather format on Channel 4.2 in favor of "This TV-Pittsburgh". WTAE owner Hearst signed the contract earlier this year. "This TV" plays movies by MGM, United Artists and Orion production companies. Owen has heard more interest and appreciation for WPXI's (11; D48) RTN channel gets more viewers than any other digital subchannel in the market and that an all movie channel for WTAE might be a better way to go.

http://www.pbrtv.com/blog/entry_1108.php

SamVin

08-03-09, 12:47 PM

This morning I discovered WTAE discontinued there weather & traffic info on the 4-2 sub-channel, and are now broadcasting programming from the ThisTV network. They changed the 4-2 call sign from WTAE-WX to WTAE-D2 and are using a logo of "this Pittsburgh"

So far this morning they have showed some cartoons like "Spider Riders" and "Animal Crackers", episodes of "The Rifleman" and "Bat Masterson" and a movie.

While I'm a bit sorry to lose the only 24 hour OTA weather channel we had in PGH, I can't complain too much with having another source of general type broadcast programming.:rolleyes:

Oh, and least I forget, apparently the RTN/RTV network has some "new" old programming in their schedule too. They were showing "Daniel Boone" and "Peter Gunn" this morning. :)

benji15301

08-03-09, 12:50 PM

The FCC has approved a power increase for Youngstown's ABC affiliate WYTV DT 36 (33-1) from 50kw to 1,000kw.

http://www.pbrtv.com/blog/entry_1107.php

SamVin

08-03-09, 01:23 PM

Here's a link for those who are interested in WTAE's programming schedule for their new sub-channel.

WTAE's listing for "this Pittsburgh" (http://tvlistings.zap2it.com/tvlistings/ZCGrid.do?aid=wtaedt2)

Dave Kasperek

08-03-09, 01:48 PM

I'm on Laurel Mountain, so there is some shading from the direction of WTAE's transmitter. WTAE does alot of promotion with Seven Springs Resort (the annual Winterfest celebration) so I am hopeful a translator would be added in this neck of the woods. The DTV on 51 is not really watchable for me.

No translators anticipated there at this time.

I know some of the history of WTAE, such as the present transmitter location was chosen to "shoehorn" the analog 4 signal in between existing Channel 4's in DC and Columbus, Ohio. Dave, was there any consideration to putting WTAE's digital on from another location, say closer to the city of Pittsburgh, from the inception of the DTV on Channel 51 instead of the distant analog 4 site?

There was consideration but that was long before they accelerated the transtion date. Ultimately deemed unwise/costly/impractical in a market with 92% cable and satellite subscription. The new translator going up this summer should solve the city reception problems, along with closer suburbs at relatively minimal cost in comparision.

Dave Kasperek

08-03-09, 01:50 PM

Dave, I'm curious as to if you guys ever considered the WPSX model, whereas they used one frequency, but they have (I think) 3 different towers throughout central PA that are able to monitor and change outputs accordingly as to minimize intereference.

We've only briefly discussed this in passing. There's not much wisdom in abandoning our 1KW ERP investment. I think we'll see what develops from the first translator and make decisions based upon that experience for any others.

Dave Kasperek

08-03-09, 02:20 PM

Since everyone has a question for Mr. Kasperek and that this forum has become the "Ask Dave Show"---I'll join in too.

Here is central Washington County, South Strabane Township (Washington) to be specific, WTAE DT (51) has an awful signal.

By comparison, WWCP DT (8) has a MUCH stronger signal here at my location.

From what I've read, the higher the channel number in UHF terms the less efficient the digital signal.

Since WTAE uses UHF 51, could this be the reason why the signal is weaker and "if" that is so has there ever been any consideration for WTAE applying for either a lower UHF frequency or (possibly) a VHF slot?

Maybe even a special permit to use more power might correct the situation.

....Just curious, seeing there seems to be so many signal problems with WTAE.

Rather than multiple quotes I'll just go in order to save typing time.

I am agreeing with someone else who suggested looking at physical obstacles, our power in your direction should be sufficient now. I end up giving everyone the same advice: get the best outdoor UHF antenna you can afford, put it up as high as is safe and practical, experiment a lot with azimuth, make sure to use quality RG6 with no corrosion and good tight connectors, add an amp if you're splitting to multiple TVs.

WWCP is, if I am not mistaken, transmitting from a very high ridge and elevation almost always wins over power, especially in hilly terrain.

The physics of UHF 51 are definitely a handicap, but WPXI, on Ch 48 seems to do OK so that doesn't explain your experience. But terrain does.

We did look for better channels and none were to be had. Note, the FCC doesn't just assign channels, they also assign the specific power levels that go with them too, and any lower channels available here in the last decade did not conveniently come with a 1KW ERP power allocation.

I personally know many who went VHF and are now very sorry they did. It's an industry train wreck for ABC and many others who thought 3KW at Channel 11 was plenty of power. Even the commission is re-thinking that one now. It travels thru the air just fine, but being a longer wavelength at such low power, it stops at your front door (or window, as the case may be..)

There's presently no likelyhood of an FCC "special permit" to exceed 1 KW ERP at UHF. Whether that will change over time is yet to be seen, but bear in mind the change would have to be relatively huge to have a practical impact, so the electric bill would be sobering to say the least.

What I really need is for the FAA to let me add 300' to my tower, but they won't issue a finding of no hazard for that.

Trip in VA

08-03-09, 02:27 PM

Dave Kasperek

08-03-09, 02:45 PM

Has any thought been put toward removing the channel 4 antenna and putting the channel 51 antenna at the top of the tower, or does anyone think that will help anything? The channel 4 antenna looks as though it's 20 meters higher up.

- Trip

It's a cost benefit issue. It would cost a lot, and the benefits would be minimal. Can't say we would never do it, but in this economy it's unlikely.

ProjectSHO89

08-03-09, 03:48 PM

Dave,

I'm scratching my head. Don't you mean 1 MW (1,000 kW) ERP on UHF-51?

SamVin

08-03-09, 06:11 PM

Here's a link I found to an article posted on June 18, a few days after the switch over, about the reported problems when DTV UHF Stations transitioned back to the VHF bands.

VHF Throws Wrench In DTV Transition (http://www.tvnewscheck.com/articles/2009/06/18/daily.5/)

It points out some of the things Dave K said about WTAE's post switch DTV signal if they went back to the VHF band. Some of the posted comments following the article are rather enlightening too.

On a personal note when WWCP was broadcasting in the UHF band, their signal for me was one of the easiest to pick up no matter how I oriented my antenna. After switching back to the Hi-VHF band on channel 8, I barely get any reception at all from WWCP now, even when I point my antenna directly at them.

Admittedly my 20+ year old VHF/UHF Crossfire needs to be replaced, mainly from some damage to the longer VHF elements from a bad storm last year. But I still get enough signal to receive both WTOV (VHF 9) and WPCW (VHF !!) with little problem. So it leaves me wondering what the problem is that I have with receiving WWCP. :confused:

I was thinking on replacing my old CF antenna later this year, but I now think I may wait till next year until after I see how a lot of these DTV broadcast problems which have yet to be resolved pan out.

benji15301

08-03-09, 06:11 PM

Dave,

I'm scratching my head. Don't you mean 1 MW (1,000 kW) ERP on UHF-51?

Hmmmm, maybe why that's why people are having reception problems. :):):):):)

nwiser

08-03-09, 09:13 PM

well darn...I thought I was gonna be the first to break the news about 4-2 now being the THIS network...but it seems several have beat me to it. While it's unfortunate that we're losing the 24 hour weather, I think its great that theres now an OTA movie channel in our area.

Such a channel was what I suggested WPXI do with their spare subchannel when they got rid of their weather some time ago...but this works for me. Hopefully they'll have some good movies on to watch.

JK77

08-03-09, 10:06 PM

It's either feast or famine!

A year ago we had two 24/7 weather channels and now zero (meanwhile WPMY still has that useless SD simulcast). It was nice having a local weather channel to be able to flip to for a quick look at conditions since I have satellite and get the generic Weather Channel feed.

re_nelson

08-04-09, 12:36 AM

Dave Kasperek (and anyone else who may know):

Your contributions to this forum are much appreciated Dave and I understand that responding to every query impinges on your time. But here goes anyway... :-)

Like so many now living in other parts of the country, I'm originally from Pittsburgh and old enough to remember both WIIC and WTAE (``Take T and C'') signing on. In the pre-cable era, with the terrain, getting solid reception on the Big Four (2, 4, 11 and 13) of that time was a challenge in Baldwin. Complicating things was that the direction of each transmitter site was different (less so with KDKA-TV and WIIC).

Here in Dallas, as is the case in many other markets, a common site emerged over time, making over-air-reception a lot easier. Here, it started with the ABC and CBS affiliates cooperating with the Hill Tower project, which evolved to the large farm at Cedar Hill, home of all of the TV sticks. Across the state, Philly has the Roxborough antenna farm.

What were the factors that prevented a joint project in the Pittsburgh area? I suppose that WTAE's spacing to Columbus would have added to the complexity of site location.

Of course, that ship has long sailed and in today's economy, it would be unthinkable. Even with the high cable/satellite penetration in the DMA, had there been an antenna farm, some of the problems associated with the DTV transition might have been eased.

Sammer

08-04-09, 01:53 AM

There's presently no likelyhood of an FCC "special permit" to exceed 1 KW ERP at UHF. Whether that will change over time is yet to be seen, but bear in mind the change would have to be relatively huge to have a practical impact, so the electric bill would be sobering to say the least.

What I really need is for the FAA to let me add 300' to my tower, but they won't issue a finding of no hazard for that.
Some people seem to think that elliptical polarization can improve reception in some areas without having such a sobering effect on the electric bill. If I may ask what are your thoughts on that as far as any practical application for WTAE assuming the FCC would approve such a power increase?

rpesq

08-04-09, 02:05 AM

I miss the full-time weather channel. I actually watched 4.2 quite a lot, almost every evening (very late, midnight+) I would leave 4.2 weather on "in the background" while I caught up on some work. It was great. Had to like Nikki, too! I watched a little closer when she was hosting.

Hopefully one of the other stations in town will bring back a full-time weather channel. It really is quite useful. For the past year that I watched 4.2, I do not remember ever pulling up the weather on the 'net, and in fact seldom watched the weather during the evening news. I figured that I would watch it at night before I called it a day.

RIP 4.2 Weather. Since I do not like very many movies, I doubt that I will watch the new 4.2., although I realize that a classic movie channel will appeal to some people. I just wish that with all of the unused subchannels available in Pgh, that someone would keep *1* as a full-time weather channel. I mean really, kdka has ZERO subchannels, wtae has the grand number of *1* subchannel, wpxi has a whopping *1*, FOX and CW have ZERO (simulcasting doesn't count). Public TV -- WQED -- is the only one with a honest attempt, having 2 subchannels (and that is still a LOT less than other cities, where it is common to find many stations having 3 subchannels.)

If these subchannels are any indicator, we Pittsburghers must be poorer than just about any medium-size city out there. Even Johnstown has a lot more subchannels than we do. I read these forums, talk to friends/family in other cities, and just about every other medium-size city (smaller than PGH) and certainly the larger cities all have a TON more subchannels than we do. Are we really this poor that we cannot justify more than *2* subchannels among the BIG THREE NETWORKS combined, with KDKA contributing NOTHING?

KDKA is a shell of their former greatness. KDKA is downright shameful. It is obvious that they must not have 2 cents to invest in their product. Here's a suggestion -- jettison your aging over$priced anchors and acquire young attractive (albeit unproven) talent for a LOT less $. Be the Oakland A's of TV, and EXPAND your business with the cost savings. I really do not think most people care to see the same overpaid sportscasters/anchors year-after-year. These guys and gals are NOT Walter Cronkite. They are EASILY replaced whether they realize it or not. The fact is that no one has mustered the moxy to challenge them. Perky young journalists, actors/actresses, and others with presentation skills & public-speaking skills are graduating all the time, and they would kill to make 50% of the salary of these "untouchables." Supply and demand. You don't have to be a journalist to present the weather or present the Sports. You need to have a smooth delivery and have a pleasant appearance. Anyone who overpays for those skills is not business savvy. The supply is much greater than you think. You just have to look for it, and stop thinking that your aging talent has bargaining power.

Back to the subchannels issue... I guess that I just do not understand the lack of interest in subchannels from the networks. To me this is an incredible waste of bandwidth for basically the cost of transmission. Even if you resold the time to HSN or QVC it would be better than NOTHING. Surely someone would be interested enough to buy the time at a rate sufficient to cover operating costs, and hopefully in the future turn it profitable. With CATV rates rising EVERY YEAR FAR IN EXCESS OF INFLATION, eventually more families will go OTA. A typical CATV packages is already $70 after costs are added up, and many packages far exceed that sum. Seems very shortsighted for the local networks to not have their foot in the door even if the project only breaks-even financially. If you do not try, you will not succeed.

pghturbo88

08-04-09, 09:43 AM

Just to chime in on the loss of 4-2, I am yet another OTA household that switched to that weather channel on a daily basis, as we have satellite for our cable channel programming. The best part was having a local radar image to view at regular intervals, so as to plan important tasks such as car washing, grass cutting, or trips to the swimming pool. (Though the studio portraits of the anchors and investigative reporters that was also in the rotation was a bit gratuitous and somewhat annoying.)

So if any of the stations are listening, I would continue to patronize a local Pittsburgh "weather-only" sub-channel, if it was offered. I suggest that channels 22 and 53 should consider an alliance with one of the stations to put up a weather sub-channel, similar to the way that our FM radio stations broadcast weather prepared by the TV folks. To me, it's smart business, as it gives the ad execs one more option in which to sell advertising time to local clients.

dfiler

08-04-09, 09:56 AM

I'm not against weather sub-channels but it does seem that their days might be numbered. Many people have turned to the internet to get their weather immediately rather than wait for a broadcast to cycle back to the info that is needed. What I see as a final nail in the coffin is the growing popularity of smart phones. Ever since I got an iPhone, I've had immediate access to weather conditions no matter where i'm at. This include local/regional/national radar and satellite loops, hour by hour forecasts for each day, historical data such as rainfall in the past few days, live web-cams, etc...

Not that there isn't still a market. I'm sure plenty of people can chime in about how a broadcast weather station is a better match for their lifestyle.

Given the choice though, i'd rather have TV stations broadcast entertainment for displaying on big screens around my house and leave weather info on my phone. Weather doesn't benefit as much from a big screen.

As for the KDKA bashing, it seemed a bit misinformed. Sure, KDKA deserves constructive criticism on technical issues. But basing them for wasting salaries on big-name anchors seems completely unfounded. I'd bet the poster of that rant has absolutely no clue about KDKA's budget or compensation packages for employees. If anything, it seems that KDKA has been rotating temporary anchors while searching for replacements for Keith, Sonni and others.

SamVin

08-04-09, 12:43 PM

I miss the full-time weather channel. I actually watched 4.2 quite a lot, almost every evening (very late, midnight+) I would leave 4.2 weather on "in the background" while I caught up on some work. It was great. Had to like Nikki, too! I watched a little closer when she was hosting.

Hopefully one of the other stations in town will bring back a full-time weather channel. It really is quite useful. For the past year that I watched 4.2, I do not remember ever pulling up the weather on the 'net, and in fact seldom watched the weather during the evening news. I figured that I would watch it at night before I called it a day.

RIP 4.2 Weather. Since I do not like very many movies, I doubt that I will watch the new 4.2., although I realize that a classic movie channel will appeal to some people. I just wish that with all of the unused subchannels available in Pgh, that someone would keep *1* as a full-time weather channel. I mean really, kdka has ZERO subchannels, wtae has the grand number of *1* subchannel, wpxi has a whopping *1*, FOX and CW have ZERO (simulcasting doesn't count). Public TV -- WQED -- is the only one with a honest attempt, having 2 subchannels (and that is still a LOT less than other cities, where it is common to find many stations having 3 subchannels.)

If these subchannels are any indicator, we Pittsburghers must be poorer than just about any medium-size city out there. Even Johnstown has a lot more subchannels than we do. I read these forums, talk to friends/family in other cities, and just about every other medium-size city (smaller than PGH) and certainly the larger cities all have a TON more subchannels than we do. Are we really this poor that we cannot justify more than *2* subchannels among the BIG THREE NETWORKS combined, with KDKA contributing NOTHING?
As has been pointed out on numerous times in this thread and a few others, KDKA and it's sister station WPCW are owned and operated by CBS Corp. And CBS has a current policy of not permitting their O&O DTV stations to multi-cast and create sub-channels.

Now the problem with multi-casting is that as you divide up the 6 Mhz broadcast channel you give up the ability of having the highest levels of HD DTV broadcasting. And given the number of current viewers with HD TV sets (and it grows daily) most stations want to delivery the highest quality programming they can on their main channel. Having a sub-channel, or multiple sub-channels, cut in to that, and can also create greater problems in the video and audio, like video artifacts, pixellation and sound drop outs on both the main and sub channel(s). Any broadcast engineer knows when it comes to multi-casting - THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH!

WTRF (VHF 7) in Wheeling, WV is a classic example. They are running three channels. 7.1 is a CBS affiliate, 7.2 is a FOX affiliate and 7.3 is an ABC affiliate, which is not an unusual setup for any station in a small market. WTRF operates their main channel (7.1) in HD at 1080i, while the two sub-channels are operated in SD at 480i. They have a hard time doing this and a simple look at posts from WTRF viewers about the reception quality shows this. Personally I can't say if they have managed to fix things yet, but when on occasion I was picking up WTRF's broadcast, I can attest that the sound quality on their FOX sub-channel (7.2) was horrible.

Now concerning comments about the lost of a OTA weather channel, I can agree that I'll be missing it too. Like you, it was easy to turn to and get a look at the local radar map when bad weather was threatening. One thing of note that I came across yesterday when I was doing a little surfing was something I saw on one site (and I'm not exactly sure which one it was). It stated that WPXI had received a lot of comments regarding the lost of their weather sub-channel. Now when this occurred it was beyond their control as the weather service they were using ceased operation at the end of 2008. It was also stated that WPXI management was toying with the idea of re-starting their weather sub-channel. So perhaps Dave Morrison, who is associated with WPXI and occasionally turns up here, can confirm this. :rolleyes: