Where can I get a copy of the service menu manual (instructions as to what does what)?

Thanks.

Try this:

http://www.agoraquest.com/viewtopic.php?topic=2591&forum=25&start=90

There is a list of sony TV's - click on the link to the xbr800 (about 2/3 of the way down the list) and a pdf file will open with the service manual.

Today i got a call from a local tech . He told me he called sony about the vertical bar issue and sony admitting it is a probllem with the b board. He ordered me one but they are on back order. he is gonna call me as soon as he gets the board in . he also told me that all he has to do is pop the new board in and thats it. Is that true? I thought you had to make some adjustments after replacing the board. Does anybody have any experience with a tech replacing there board? if so please reply to this and let me know what the procedure was.

Just want to chime in here. My 34XBR800 had the vertical bar problem in the worst way. Made 1080i pretty much unwatchable. Last night I applied the HDPT fix, and wow! What a huge difference. I haven't done a really detailed analysis yet to see if it is 100% gone, but I certainly don't notice it when watching a 1080i signal, even when looking carefully.

Tonight I'll break out Avia for a closer look.

dp

Wher is the best place to get Avia?

Price??
Thanks.

I got mine at Amazon.com. I think it was about $37.00 with free shipping.

Please keep this thread related to 34XBR800 vertical line issues ONLY. It is long enough as it is without UNRELATED posts regarding where to get Avia. If you want to ask UNRELATED questions, start a new thread.

Is this verical line issue STRICTLY related to '34XBR800' problems?
I thought that the problem pertained to all 'XBR800' series sets( 36XBR... and 40 included) that have experienced this problem.

OK, I'm on hold with Sony Service right now.

Firstly, they are telling me that there are *no* service bulletins issued regarding the KV-34XBR800. They also tell me that the event ID posted above (E18728143) is ancient, from their test database and he is having trouble pulling it up.

Can some of you folks PLEASE post your event ID's from your personal service tickets and if there is any truth to this bulletin rumor, please POST THE NUMBER.

Thank you,
dp

Last night I applied the HDPT fix, and wow! What a huge difference. I haven't done a really detailed analysis yet to see if it is 100% gone, but I certainly don't notice it when watching a 1080i signal, even when looking carefully.

Tonight I'll break out Avia for a closer look.


The HDPT correction did NOT fix the vertical bar problem I am having. It seems to have changed the situations in which it appears though, as some of the clips which previously exhibited this problem appear notably better, and others seem to be worse.

I'm calling Sony now, and as I indicated in my previous post, they are telling me that there is no record of a service bulletin regarding this problem and that the event ID posted above doesn't track in their production event tracking system (appears to be from an old test database).

dp

I just had my KV34xbr800 fixed by a non-sony tech. He was from the Rapid Response Team from Tweeter (store where I bought my tv). My tv was manufactured in Oct 02. He logged into Sony's tech support web site from my house and downloaded the fix. The Sony Bulletin (not sure of the number) requires all tv's manufacutured between Oct - Dec 02 to replace the D board and to apply the HDPT fix. This has solved my white bar problem, and my picture looks great. Thanks to everyone who have posted this problem.

1 interesting fact, the D boards looked completely different. There was a hot sync on the board he removed and not one on the new board.

Lavoiema,

I understand that you don't have the bulletin number that the serviceman allegedly accessed from your house. Could you provide his name/phone number and the event ID associated with his visit to your house? I very much want to verify that such a bulletin actually exists and share that information with the group.

Despite all the reports that Sony acknowledges this problem and has a recommended fix for it, I had not yet seen any tangible evidence to support this claim.

dp

>Could you provide his name/phone number and the event ID associated with his visit to your house? I very much want to verify that such a bulletin actually exists and share that information with the group.

The tech is coming back to my house this Wednesday afternoon. I'll see if I can get him to cough up details on the service bulletin, but it definitely exists. I looked at my work order but there is nothing that jumps out as a number or official title.

On another note, he is coming back to check on a problem that started after the fix was made. My set no longer displays 480p properly, it idoes not sync and the video is torn. I just noticed this when trying out a DVD after a long spell since the 1080i fix. You can also duplicate the problem with an HD200 by forcing the format to 480p. Those that have repaired sets might want to double check proper 480p display.

Jim

You said a Tweeter repair guy replaced your D board? Are you sure it was the D board- any way to confirm?

Just wondering because I got my set at Tweeter and so far have been working with Sony to fix the vertical bar issue. They have tried to replace my B board twice and it hasn't worked but once they said the replacement board was defective and once they said it hadn't been modified properly. I am currently on the waiting list for a new modified B board- last I heard late April ship date.

So my question is if the guy replaced your D or B board. because if it's the D board and I'm waiting on a B board that isn't the answer I'm going to be po'd with Sony.

If it truly is the D board then I'm going to try Tweeter. I bought close to $5K worth of stuff there at the end of the year so they better give me some satisfaction.

This whole thing has been a pain- I'm tired of companies producing and selling stuff that has major issues. If they are selling a widescreen HiDef monitor you'd at least thing they;d check out the 1080i picture for obvious defects.

Im waiting on a b board also i havent heard anything about a d board.

I've been having a mild form of the vertical bar problem with my KD-34XBR2 and the SA4200HD box. The set was manufactured in February, 2002.

The Sony tech saw the problem and called the techs in San Diego and tried a service menu fix that included the HDPT setting and several others. It didn't work, so he'll come back (hopefully) after they do some research. Apparently this is perhaps the second time they have seen this and they don't have a definite hardware or software fix as they do with the 800.

Fortunately, the problem isn't severe, but it is there and I expect something close to perfection on a set like this. If anyone has successfully corrected the problem on the 34XBR2, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

- Bryan

So many people on this thread have claimed seeing a service bulletin about this problem, yet my requests for a service bulletin number (or event ID associated with this bulletin, or the name/number of a technican who can verify its existence) have gone unanswered for nearly a week.

I am renewing my request for some substantive evidence that Sony recognizes this problem. Any of you who have seen this bulletin or who have had repair work done, please post the relevant information - it will be of help to the entire community.

dp

The Sony tech just left my house. He said this was the second one that he has see with this problem in two days. He changed two variables in the service menu. The HTPT one everyone keeps taking about and MID1. The MID1 actually completely blanked out the display when he changed it. He told me that this is something the engineers are aware of currently working. He said he was going to pass on his findings to the engineers and get back to me when they have a fix.

Mike

I had a November 2002 34XBR800 with the vertical bar bug. I was told by one of the Sony Support managers that the production problem was fixed on 12/16. Not true. I just got a new replacement set manufactured in February 2003. Incredibly, it has the same problem. A Sony authorized tech is coming to the house on Friday. I will try to get the service bulletin ID.

Has anyone seen this problem on the 40XBR, or is this particular to 34XBR's only?

It was/is definitely a problem in the 40xbr as well - mine had the problem but was fixed with the HDPT fix. Many others had the problem with the 40 as well.

max99, I've yet to see this vertical line when viewing 1080i. Is there a way to check and make certain there isn't a problem?

I had the problem on my 40 and it was fixable with the HDPT service menu fix. The easiest way for me to see it was to watch HD-NET on either a really dark concert scene or catch a black background during credits for a show. I did this after sunset with no other lights on in the room. It was very obvious then. In normal viewing, I could see it as a pulsing discoloration in some scenes, but getting a black background made it jump right out at you.

I look for it by turning off all of the room lights at night, setting the picture mode to Vivid, setting the input to a 1080i source (Motorola 5100 cable box for me), then turn the power off on the source. Let your eyes adjust to the dark for a minute then look for a grey vertical bar that moves from right to left about once per second. I notice the "pulsing discoloration" in normal room lighting conditions but this is the best recipe I've found for seeing the distinct vertical bar.

Thanks guys, I've got TWC for HDTV, and will check it out tonight. If it's there, I want it fixed.

The easiest way that I've found to showcase this problem is to tune to a 1080i source (HD-NET), then tune to a station that you do not receive a signal for. This will give you a perfectly black screen and you can see the bar easily, without having to adjust your picture settings.

Service Bulletin Confirmation

I hang out in this forum a bit, but I built a new user ID for this post because I can't figure out how to post anonymously. This data comes from Sony's internal website. I doubt that they'd mind, but one never knows. I don't want to jeapordize the relationship I have with them.

There is a published Sony service bulletin about this problem.

In Sony parlance, it's called a CS3 Service Bulletin or Field Problem Report. The ID given above is correct, E18728143. If you're talking to a Sony employee, they can access it on the Sony Intranet at http://tchnt4.us.sel.sony.com/web/esi/servdocs.html . They will need to key in the model number. It will come up under the models KV32HS500, KV32HV600, KV34XBR800, KV36HS500, KV36XBR800 and KV40XBR800. The bulletin was last updated on 3/14/2003. It was submitted by ZKUA63 and the engineer's initials are DAS.

The problem description on the bulletin is as follows: "Vertical bar moving from right to left. The bar is about 4 to 5 inches wide and goes from right to left across the screen every second. This can most easily be seen in the standard or vivid picture mode. It's also more pronounced when brightness is increased. Happens with either DVI or component input."

The service bulletin is very detailed, with pictures of the "B" Board, a procedure for replacing the "B" board, a flowchart for "DVI Vertical Bar Countermeasure Implementation" and a list of components which should be mounted on the "B" Board. The service bulletin states:

- Some boards manufactured between 10/2002 and 12/2002 may not have these parts.
- Units with the correct parts just need service mode changes (specific changes will be mentioned below)
- boards without these parts should be replaced, adding the parts to the board should not be attempted.
- non-volatile memory (IC3089) should be moved from the old board to the new board during the replacement procedure
- There is also this note: "B Board A1300-327-A Use in models: KV-32HV600, KV-34XBR800, KV-36XBR800, and KV-40XBR800. B Board A-1300-327-A used in models: KV-32HS500, KV-36HS500" (Yes, those model numbers look very similar. This is not my typo, I checked very carefully. I don't know that it's correct, but I copied it letter-for-letter. )

Although there are about 20 differences between new and old "B" boards, the easiest (and recommended) way to identify a new board is to look for IC-3414 mounted under the shield-cover component side of the board. It's a 16-pin dual-inline SMT IC located in the center of the board vertically, toward the right side horizontally. You can find it on the PCB layout in the service manual on page 258, quadrant D-10. This chip should be labelled M52055FP. On faulty boards, it won't be mounted.

For sets that have the correct components on their "B" board, they need to implement the "DVI Vertical Bar Countermeasures." It's difficult to represent a flowchart in these posts, but here's a go:

1. Select RF input and enter service mode. Change "OP HDPT" to 0. VERY IMPORTANT THAT RF INPUT IS SELECTED BEFORE THIS CHANGE IS MADE. Write data. Go to step 2.
2. Select a 1080i DVI input. Is the vertical bar visible? If yes, go to 3. If no, go to 4.
3. Countermeasure circuitry not mounted or applied incorrectly. Check/add the missing parts listed on the service bulletin or replace the "B" Board. Go to step 2.
4. Is a 1080i DVI source available? If yes, go to step 5 . If no, go to step 9.
5. Select DVI 1080i output on the source. Select Video 7 input on the set. go to step 6.
6. Enter service mode, then choose "vivid mode" in the user menu. Modify the following data: 2170P_3 SHOF=2, 2170P_3 F1LV=2, 2170P_1 CBOF=38, 2170P_1 CROF=38. Write the data. Go to step 7.
7. Choose "standard mode" in the user menu, then modify the following data: 2170P_3 SHOF=3, 2170P_3 F1LV=3. Write the data. Go to step 8.
8. Choose "movie mode" in the user menu, then modify the following data: 2170P_3 F1LV=1. Go to step 14.
9. Connect a component 1080i video source to video 5. Select video 5 input on the set. Go to step 10.
10. Enter service mode, then choose "vivid mode" in the user menu. Modify the following data: 2170P_3 SHOF=2, 2170P_3 F1LV=2, 2170P_1 CBOF=37, 2170P_1 CROF=37. Write the data. Go to step 11.
11. Choose "standard mode" in the user menu, then modify the following data: 2170P_3 SHOF=3, 2170P_3 F1LV=3. Write the data. Go to step 12.
12. Choose "movie mode" in the user menu, then modify the following data: 2170P_3 F1LV=1. Go to step 13.
13. While viewing the 1080i signal in any picture mode, confirm that the following data is correct: CXA2151 YGN=7. CXA2151 CBGN=8, CXA2151 CRGN=8. Go to step 15.
14. Is there a 1080i component source available? If yes, go to step 9. If no, go to step 13.
15. Countermeasure implementation complete.

Hope this helps. If so, tell me your name is also John Jacob Jingleheimerschmidt.

Thanks for taking the time for that detailed post. Curious that the KD-34XBR2 is not included, though I believe the KV-34XBR800 is similar with DVI and without the HDTV tuner. I fear those of us with that model may be left out on a limb. It has been less than a week since the technician looked at my TV, so I'll be patient.

My tech, way back in December, did only the HDPT change. All is fine; the verticle bar is gone and I have no complaint at all, but I wonder what all the other myriad changes are for. Has anyone any idea what these codes refer to? Has anyone out there had the entire range of changes made. At the time, the tech said words to the effect that if the problem was the verticle bar and the HDPT fix removed that verticle bar, why risk messing something up by making unnecessary changes. So, if anyone out there has any idea what these codes refer to, please let me know so that I can think about "completing" the fix.

Originally posted by cajieboy
max99, I've yet to see this vertical line when viewing 1080i. Is there a way to check and make certain there isn't a problem?

WPl1977 had the easiest way - go from a 1080i broadcast to a channel with no signal (I always went from HDNet 199 to channel 50). The line is obvious on the blank screen.

Thsnks jjingle.

Sony tech coming to my house 4/30/03 so I will love carefully watching what takes place with some knowledge.

Any way to get into the Tech Site.

I have been looking for username and password to no avail.

Thanks
Again

jsssbs@hotmail.com

Fortunately, I've yet to see the line. I purchased my 40XBR in late Dec. so perhaps I got the fix already.

Thanks for the info jingle!

I found this interesting:

- boards without these parts should be replaced, adding the parts to the board should not be attempted.


The first attempt to fix my TV the Sony guy called his supervisor and then proceeded to try and modify a B board he had in his truck. The result was a PATHETIC picture.

Also makes it sound like it really is the B board and not the D board. That's what I wanted to hear since I've been waiting for a new B board for over a month. Last I heard the new boards would be shipping next week- at the earliest.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, it is possible to determine if you have an updated "B" board.

Although there are about 20 differences between new and old "B" boards, the easiest (and recommended) way to identify a new board is to look for IC-3414 mounted under the shield-cover component side of the board. It's a 16-pin dual-inline SMT IC located in the center of the board vertically, toward the right side horizontally. You can find it on the PCB layout in the service manual on page 258, quadrant D-10. This chip should be labelled M52055FP. On older boards, it won't be mounted.

I'm updating the original post to include this information.

jjingle1,

Thanks for the post.

On page 258 of the service manual, you can see the B board's identification down in quadrant F-3, printed as "A-1300-325-A". I assume that this is the identification number for an earlier version of the B board that was current at the time the schematic diagram was generated. If we have the correct 16 pin chip mounted as IC3414, but not the newer board identification number A-1300-327-A, can the software patch still be done?

Thanks

Originally posted by montreal
If we have the correct 16 pin chip mounted as IC3414, but not the newer board identification number A-1300-327-A, can the software patch still be done?

Unknown. It sounds as if the faulty boards were produced only between 10/2002-12/2002. I would guess that the service mode changes could be applied to any version of the board that includes IC3414, but the bulletin doesn't really address your question.

dp

Jjingle1,

Fortunately I have the correct chip mounted in the correct position on the B board. My board is identified by a paper sticker stuck upside down near the top right hand corner of the component side of the board. It has A1300 327A printed on it.

The board is made in Japan and the set was assembled in the U.S.A. last July with a serial number A900008x.

Since I assume all B boards had space reserved on them for the 20 odd components that some B boards are missing, it's a mystery to me why the production line suddenly stopped inserting these parts late last year.

I would like to be able to demonstrate to myself that this software patch works even though I don't subscribe to a 1080i source.

Do you know if renting an XBOX with Dragon's Lair and with the components XBOX HD adapter is sufficient to demonstrate the success of the patch?

Originally posted by petesimac
Has anyone any idea what these codes refer to? ... So, if anyone out there has any idea what these codes refer to, please let me know so that I can think about "completing" the fix.
The following information is provided without warranty of any kind... express or implied... Yada, yada, yada...

Cat. # ID Description
======= = ==== =================================================
OP 4 HDPT 1080i Through Switch [0:Through, 1:MID]
2170P_3 6 SHOF Sharpness Gain [0:+0step, 1:+4step, 2:+8step, 3:+12step]
2170P_3 9 F1LV Sharpness f1 [0:0db, 1:+1db, 2:+2db, 3:+3db]
2170P_1 3 CBOF Cb Offset [0:B-36mVG+16mV, 31:B+0G+0, 63:B+43G-20]
2170P_1 4 CROF Cr Offset [0:R-46mVG+10mV, 31:R+0G+0, 63:R+55G-12]
CXA2151 3 CBGN Output Gain for Cb [0:-2db, 7:0db, 15:+2db]
CXA2151 4 CRGN Output Gain for Cr [0:-2db, 7:0db, 15:+2db]
CXA2151 5 YGN Output Gain for Y [0:-2db, 7:0db, 15:+2db]

Originally posted by YoungWeb
I look for it by turning off all of the room lights at night, setting the picture mode to Vivid, setting the input to a 1080i source (Motorola 5100 cable box for me), then turn the power off on the source. Let your eyes adjust to the dark for a minute then look for a grey vertical bar that moves from right to left about once per second.

Is this something you can see every single time you look for it? I finally got an HD STB today (Samsung SIR-t151), and have spent the past few hours trying to figure out if I have the problem or not. I've done the method of looking at dark scenes, turning off the source, changing to a channel I don't get, etc. And I've tried it in Vivid, Standard, Movie and Pro.

The reason I'm concerned is because I have a Dec '02 set with a serial # beginning with 801. Clearly, people have reported problems with this run. I want to have an ISF tech by, but I wanted to get this problem taken care of first.

Thanks everybody for the information.
Chris

Originally posted by redinger
...have spent the past few hours trying to figure out if I have the problem or not.

I gotta believe you don't have the problem. It's really distracting and hard to miss on my set.

Unbelievably, Sony doesn't have internal service reps in the San Francisco Bay Area, so I've got a local TV repair show (authorized Sony Service) center working on the problem. First technician told me that this is not a problem, all HDTV sets do this and that it couldn't be fixed. This is *after* I showed them jjingle's excellent information above. Guess what? They won't be coming back to my house anytime soon.

Next service shop made me jump through hoops to get them out there ("we can't service your television because our copy machine isn't good enough to copy the light print on your receipt. If you want your TV fixed, go to Kinkos and make copies for us.") Then they sat on the service order for a week before doing a damn thing. Finally when I called them back and complained they read the service bulletin and ordered the "B" board. I'll call them for an ETA tomorrow.

Can't wait!

Thank you again jjingle. That's my name too!
dp

Originally posted by redinger
Is this something you can see every single time you look for it?

Yes. As I said in my last post:

I notice the "pulsing discoloration" in normal room lighting conditions but this is the best recipe I've found for seeing the distinct vertical bar.

As the vertical bar moves across the screen, it disturbs the facial color tones. This is the first problem I observed. It's easier to see in some scenes than others.

As the factory authorized tech said, "it's unwatchable once you know what to look for". He had a good tecnhique for seeing the distinct vertical bar. He used a blanket to filter out the room light. He put the the edge of the blanket on top of the TV then pulled the blanket over his head.

I think this may be a problem with all tube widescreens. I recently purchased a Samsung 3096whf 30" widescreen and had exactly the same problem. Light vertical bands whenever the picture pans with either a light or dark solid background. Very annoying, so annoying in fact I returned the tv.

I just received a brand new TXN3075whf, Samsungs new 30" for this year, and it does not have the problem, or at least to a degree it is noticeable. Either they fixed the problem or I just got a lucky set.

I know all the tv manufacturers share components and technologies so I am sure it is a design flaw. It is also noticeable from any source on a lot of sets I have played with at different stores.

My friend has a Toshiba 34HDX82 and he also suffers from a horizontal band as well as the vertical! I just hope my new set does not develope this problem. Also a lot of projection tv's have the same affliction so it is just not a direct view problem.

my new KV34XBR800 has these same problems (vertical light bar sweep left to right at 1 sec. intervals, color pulse in skin tone red/green - same interval, and large square pixels showing up mostly in dark objects moving in scenes, ie. black horse running or camera panning across dark forest)

Guess what? My set was manufactured in April 2003!

To those who have had problem fixed, were all aspects of the problem addressed, or just the light bar sweep?

I'm just thinking/worried that the relief from seeing sweep disappear was good enough to satisfy some and that other PQ issues still exist.

thanks so much for your replies
-Steve

The Sony tech came out and looked at my set a few weeks ago and tried the service menu fixes, which did not work. He said that the engineers were aware of the problem and working on a fix and that they would contact me when a solution was reached.

I got a call the other day to setup an appointment to fix the issue. The date is set for June 14th. I'll let everyone know if they really fix the issue.

Mike

I know it's been a long time since I posted. I was the first guy on here to get to the fix way back (Post on 12-28-02). It works great. No sweeping bar or color pulsing. Well sorta. I just noticed this the other day. In FULL SCREEN the problem is gone which is what matters. But when you put picture-in-picture on (the HD screen will be on the left side), I see the vert. bar sweep WITHIN the HD window. Weird.... but I could care less. As long as it's fixed full screen. Just a little weird tidbit to this issue.--- GS kid

Kid..
No kidding!!! I just got a new B Board.

EXACTLY the same situation on the PIP mode. This is a TV only it's mother can love I guess.

BTW memory was NOT swapped out on the B Board, service guy just installed out of the box. Wonder what difference that makes.

I recently noticed when watching discovery hd theatre i dont see the sweep at all . im wondering if it only does it when 480p is being upconverted . like for instance hbo or showtime you see the bar rite away but if its true 1080i you dont see it at all .

Latest update on my 34xbr800.

After waiting about 2 months to get a new B board the Sony repair guy came out today. Third time he's replaced the B board- first one was defective and 2nd one he said had not been modified properly. After he popped the board in all looked fine. After he left I was eating lunch and tuned into HBO-HD- Arachnophobia was on. First dark scene that I saw showed the return of the faint vertical scan line moving right to left.

So I called Sony back rigth then and asked them what the next step is- they bumped the work order up a level and are trying to get approval for a TV exchange.

Has it ever been confirmed what manufacturing dates are the problem sets or is the line still visible in even recent sets? I'm just hoping I don't go thru a swap just so I can see the line appear again.

My current set was made in Dec 02. Back to 720p for now I guess.

Great TV but I'm growing tired of this issue.

After about a month, I still haven't heard anything about the issue with my KV-34XBR2. I'm learning to ignore it because it's faint and it seems like the fix for the 800 is not a sure thing. I hope you get your new set Zachman - Sony has to stand behind their products, especially at these prices.

Good news- I called Sony today and they said I have been approved for an exchange. Said it will be 34xbr800 or the latest model if the 34xbr800 is not in stock in the local Chicagoland warehouse. Is the new model even out yet? It will be interesting to see the manufacture date on the new set- hopefully it is Apr or May and the vertical line will not be present.

My new 34XBR800 is made in May 2003. The problem is still there.

I just bought a KV-36HS500. Does it have this problem everyone is talking about? Thanks.




Tiger

Thanks to the info in this thread, the vertical bar problem is fixed via service mode adjustments.

What is the service mode fix? Where is it described?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=190083&perpage=20&pagenumber=14

I also fixed mine via service mode and mine was man. dec 2002

Sony came to my apartment for the second time over the weekend and fixed my problem. The first time he just tried the service menu fix with no luck. This time he came with a circuit board and swapped it out for the one in my TV. This time the service menu fix worked. He told me that some sets require this board to be swapped out for the service menu fix to work. Hopefully this helps some people out.

Mike

I need you guys to help me out.

-How do I know the manufacture date of my KV-36XBR800?
-I do not have an HD source other than my progressive scan DVD player at the moment. How can I check my KV-36XBR800 to see if the problem exists without an HD source before my warranty runs out?

I will eventually get HD when it's available in my area....

Please help....

Originally posted by tompat
-How do I know the manufacture date of my KV-36XBR800?
It should be on a label on the back of the TV
Originally posted by tompat
-I do not have an HD source other than my progressive scan DVD player at the moment. How can I check my KV-36XBR800 to see if the problem exists without an HD source before my warranty runs out?
You need a HD source of some sort if you want to test your set ... perhaps you could rent a HD STB ... or a D-VHS machine ...

I just got hooked up to Comcast Basic HD cable service via component cabling through Motorola DTC 5100 box in the Boston area.
I don't see any of the problems discussed here but I don't know if I am receiving any 1080i signals or how to determine what scan type signal I am getting.
I only receive PBS demo loop, ABC and NBC signals (no premium channels).
I was not given a manual for the Motorola box so I don't know if there is any way to display the "status" of what I'm seeing.
I know that I can't alter the screen mode when I get HD images. It locks in "full" mode. I assume this is correct.
My 34xbr was manufactured in Nov 2002. No problems at all since Jan 2003.
Am I just lucky?
Sorry if this has been answered before. I am a little lost on this lengthy post.
Thanks.

Particularly when viewing 1080i but also when viewing 720P or dvd's there are large chunks/blobs/splotches of discoloration all down the left and right side of the screen when a white background is displayed. I am going to check now for the moving line. It's so awful looking and drives me completely insane. My parents can not see it even when it is pointed out to them but my brother notices it as well. The tube has been replaced already but the problem is STILL there!

Who here has watched an HD hockey game or other bright HD program on this set and NOT seen discoloration on the sides? It is AWFUL on my set!!!! I bought this set when it was released last July and for some STUPID reason paid 2499.99 for it (full price) and am fed up. There's also a very ugly hazy gray and white line going down the left side of the 4x3 frame that is still there when the set is put in full mode. About half of it is still visible on the left side of the screen, the rest seems to be gone due to a bit of overscan. Why is that there? Is it on anyone else's set? I checked out the store model recently and it is not there. I told the service guy that replaced my tube this and he said that it was because Circuit City has the television in fake lighting.... I'm not a moron. This line/bar is VERY visible on the edge of the 4x3 frame and I KNOW it was not there on the set at the store.

What the heck should I do???? I've been stressed over this set for nearly a year and I am pissed off.

From your description, it sounds like a Sony Warranty issue, and this is where you should try to get satisfaction. But then again, if you purchased the 5-Year Extended Warranty from CC as I did on my 40XBR last Dec., then after the 3rd complaint they will replace your TV w/a new one.

I have the same warranty you have. Should I go ahead and get the tv replaced with the same one or wait to do it when the one in November is released with the supposed extra holes punched in the aperture grill, new features, etc. comes out...

The KV-34XBR910's are suppose to be a substantial upgrade from the current 34XBR800's. IF CC will do the swap, then jump on it.

Anyone have any suggestions for me. post #310 above?
thanks.

Originally posted by tomtv
I don't see any of the problems discussed here but I don't know if I am receiving any 1080i signals or how to determine what scan type signal I am getting.Ways to tell what type of signal you are getting:

1. Try to change / access DRC mode / pallette settings - if you can change / access DRC modes and settings, then you are getting a 480i signal. If you can't, then you are getting something else (480p, 720p, 1080i)

2. Try to change Zoom mode - if you can change Zoom mode, then you are getting 480i or 480p. If Zoom is locked into 'Full' then you are getting something else (720p, 1080i)

3. Pull up the service menu - the service menu always displays the input signal ... I forget if it shows it for all settings or just the settings that are per-input signal. That's the only way to change per-input settings ... feed the TV a different input.

Thanks dt-dc

When I tune in through the Motorola box, I can only make picture adjustments on non-HD channels. The 3 HD channels lock-in "full" screen mode.
The box is connected to video 5. I assume 5 and 6 are interchangeable.
I was hoping to identify signal type by going through the cable box menu,
however Comcast did not provide a manual.
I've yet to enter the Sony's service menu.

My main concern was to identify if my set falls into the neverland of 1080i problems discussed here. Hopefully these problems show up early and from ANY HD source. Looks like I'm fine with Comcast. Don't want to switch to DirecTv beyond my warranty and discover I have the problem.

Originally posted by tomtv
I was hoping to identify signal type by going through the cable box menu, however Comcast did not provide a manual.
Motorola STB (and a few other items) user manuals:
http://gicout60.gic.gi.com/customer_docs/#user

5100 User Manual:
http://gicout60.gic.gi.com/customer_docs/user_guides/487412-001.pdf

I think what you're looking for is on page 10 ... make sure to set the YPbPr output to 1080i ... the 'vertical bar' doesn't show with 720p input ...

Note: Vertical Bar seen when viewing HD (1080i) on New Sony HDTV Monitor-HS510 Model with a Manufacture Date of April 2003 received 7/6/03... replacing HV600.

* Did adjustment in Service Mode to "OP HDPT" only.... changed value from 1 to 0 as suggested by Post on Page 14 of this Thread... Thank You, problem with Bar Resolved!!

Note: Vertical Bar seen when viewing HD (1080i) on New Sony HDTV Monitor-HS510 Model with a Manufacture Date of April 2003 received 7/6/03... replacing HV600.


While I am happy that the info in this thread fixed your problem...


?how come Sony has not fixed this problem?

This really amazes me. This has been a known problem for months! What is Sony doing?

P.S.

This thread was started in November of 2002.

8 months ago!

Add me to the list of people who are experiencing problems with Sony's XBR800 series. I have the 36XBR800, and the problem is very annoying for me, I notice it on Showtime HD more then any source, since Sho has been showing dark movies recently like Hannibal and Avalon. Like someone else has said, it's more noticeable with DVI than component. I don't want switch from DVI back to component to make it less noticeable, I want it fixed. This thread has been EXTREMELY helpful in identifying this problem, the next step is to get it fixed. I have not called Sony yet, but my set was manufactured on April 11, 2003. So that tells me that Sony knew of problem, because this thread was started last year, but did not correct it. Unfortunently, the service menu fix didn't work for me:( So here's hoping that I get a competent service person, as I seem to have a lot of problems with TVs.

PS, I just got this TV two weeks ago, but didn't receive HD from TWC till' last Tuesday. Damnit Sony, first the PS, then the PS2, and now this :mad: ?

I called Sony this morning. They claim to know nothing of the problem but had me schedule with some local tech who also claimed to know nothing about the problem. I am hesitant to let these guys take my TV and do who knows what to it. What should I do? Where at Sony could I contact?

Look back on this thread: 4/15/03 Post #278 from jjingel. He tells you more than you want to know. Just tell them (the service guy) the Service Bulletin number.

That's a problem I have too. A lot of these so-called techs, have no idea what the hell they're doing. They're reluctant to believe anything they have not discovered by themselves. Everytime you tell the the exact problem, they also wanna see if they find it themselves, or tell you stupid stuff, like "did you check the cables?" etc. I told the woman from Sony exactly what was wrong, but she still told me to try an unplug the TV to reset to the factory settings. Even after I told her it's an internal problem that about 50 other people have here. The TV is really heavy, and very new, I don't want them doing an autopsy on my set, and then giving it back to me the same( ie: unrepaired) like they do 90% of the time. I really don't want to get it back banged up either.

In that long SONY thread there are specific names and numbers of the right people to talk to (mentioned above) at SONY make good use of it they have already done the leg work.

*Note: Beware of Sony Customer Information Services Center... those People were of no help to me, total DENIAL of any awareness of this problem, and tried to push me off on a local Sony Authorized Repair Service with labor Cost. If it wasn't for 'SEARS' stepping up to the plate and exchanging my HV600 Model for the New HS510 with a 5 Year Warranty Plan, I would be out in the COLD. With the help from Sears & this Forum this problem is behind me.

Thank You Sony for NOTHING, but a useless 7 Question Survey for which you got an 'F' on my card.

I did that yesterday. They said there was nothing there and that Sony knows nothing of this problem but maybe it was a loose bolt!

colefrance,

Glad you were able to get satisfaction w/your problem. On another thread we were debating the value of a 5-year Extended Warranty. In your case, I think you could say it was well worth the extra bucks.

This is the problem I have, I , like many other people here, am in NYC, where the Sony authrized repair center is called Advisory. I've been through these guys a few times before for a few other TVs. The problem with some of these repair centers is that a lot of the time, they are in denial. I consider myself to have well above average knowledge of electronics, so I can point out specific problems. So if I tell them of a transparent bar on 1080i sources and say that it's a mass manufacturing defect, chance are that, that's exactly what it is. Not a loose screw, or a unique problem. I even had an argument with one of their "Sony" experts back in summer of 97' because he tried to tell me that there was no 35" XBR at the time, which is BS since this is when the first 35" XBR was introduced. I even showed him a picture, and he was still in denial. I want an authorized service center, where I can give them the Sony bulletin number, and they can quickly identify and fix the problem, but that may be too much to ask.

Cole France, I've had my 36XBR800 for exactly 2 weeks now, and the Sony warranty is for two years, so they better not have ANY labor charges. Kinda makes me wish I would have gotten an extended warranty. So should I call Sony back an demand to speak with a technician? So i could present them with the bulletin number? Thanks.

Arghhh!! Another call to Sony. Gave them the bulletin number and link. Service rep claims there is no reported problem and no solution. Suggests having tech take my TV to his shop for diagnostics. Not sure where to turn. This is extremely frustrating.......Update: On the third level of bureaucracy.....Sony employee says he "seems to remember" some issue but can't find it....oh wait there it is. Anyway, they tacitly acknowledged the problem and hopefully a tech can come to my house armed with this info and fix it. We'll see....

It would be nice if someone could get their hands on a copy of the official service bulletin, or at least the official bulletin number and post an image of it here.

Also note that even if the bulletin was first published last spring for internal use by Sony, there may be a newer bulletin produced in the future that takes into account new folklore based on experiences in the field. We could all benefit from more wisdom.

The fact that Sony is still in denial and that some recently manufactured TV sets continue to contain the flaw is proof that either the members of this forum are a small minority in the world of Sony customers, or that the top management at Sony is really out of touch with their employees and products. Otherwise they would have cleaned up this mess much sooner.

Sorry to be so critical of such a great institution.

"the top management at Sony is really out of touch with their employees and products. Otherwise they would have cleaned up this mess much sooner."

Yes, I agree with this part.

montreal,

To repeat my post from yesterday:

"Look back on this thread: 4/15/03 Post #278 from jjingel. He tells you more than you want to know. Just tell them (the service guy) the Service Bulletin number."

I know that there are a lot of posts on this thread, but what you ask was done (very well, I might add) 3 months ago. At least my comment (with that reference) is current.

I understand that the document is marked "CONFIDENTIAL" and there may be some legal issues for someone who has access to it if they actually published it on the web.

Been awhile since I updated the story with my 34XBR from Dec 02. I had been watching in 720P to stop the vertical line. Sony tech tried to fix the TV 3 or 4 times. Finally today they showed up with my replacement TV- I forgot to look at the back to see the manufacture date. Sadly it has the vertical line too- I need to try the HDPT fix tonight. Hope it works so this saga can be over- but if it doesn't I'll keep pushing Sony to fix it- maybe eventually I can get an upgrade to a newer model. The lady thought I might get a newer model this time.

The replacement TV came all the way from San diego they said- you think they would have at least checked it to see if it had the problem before spending the $$ to ship it to Chicago and drop it off at my house. I have a feeling sony is in DENIAL.

The tech who tried to fix the old set admitted it was a known problem- it just doesn't appear that Sony knows how to fix the issue or maybe they just don't care.

Nothing like finally convincing the wife to spend $2500 on a TV and then getting to watch a white vertical line go right to left on dark scenes. Switching to 720p stops the line but for $2500 I shouldn't have to do that!!

Good news on my saga. Called an "authorized" Sony tech. They researched the problem and found the service bulletin posted on page 14. They are coming Friday to determine whether fix can be done through service menu or not, but they are aware of the problem and the Sony solution. Keeping fingers crossed for Friday. The fact that Sony was adamant in their denial of it to me yesterday and today is incredibily disappointing. On the other hand, I otherwise love the tv.......

This seems to be a very weird anomaly. Some TV's have the line, other TV's of the same make and model do not. Can someone explain the mystery??

"Finally today they showed up with my replacement TV- ...
Sadly it has the vertical line too- "

OhhhMyyGoddd!!!

Sony, wake up!

I just spoke with Sony and complained of the problem again. I finally got to level 2, which didn't help one bit. The guy was very arrogant and asked me what was the source of my information on this problem, once I said the internet he was in disbelief. He said does it make sense that a local repair center can't find the problem, but a couple of guys on the net can? I said "yes, because I have very detailed information pertaining to this problem from within Sony" He looked up the info, and he said there is NO record of the problem. So now I have an authorized tech center coming tomorrow to take a look at the problem. Sony is in complete denial of the problem, and it showed with the hostility of the level 2 tech today. I have a question. How can you fix something you won't acknowledge is there? So to the people who fixed this problem, congrats, and to the people like me who are still dealing with the problem (especially those in NYC), please keep me updated on your progress.

It's weird that there's still some Sony people that don't know about this. They were very helpful with me. I talked to a lady whom others on here have talked to and she was very helpful. In fact... I made her aware of the problem and she looked into it. She called me back and said they were aware of the problem as we spoke. She called me back 2 1/2 weeks later to tell me they had a fix and gave me the service number of the problem to tell my tech. My service tech. came to my house with the vertical line fix flowchart in his hand and had it fixed in about 15 min. The only time the vert. bar appears is when you put the 1080i picture in picture-next to-picture mode where it appears on the left and your other source on the right side of the screen. In full screen... it's gone! That's all that counts to me. The woman's name is somewhere in this thread. It's a post from months ago someone put on here. If you can't find it... I can look for it and point it out. I last talked to her in DEC. '02 and forgot her name. Someone said she's in Florida. Didn't know Sony had offices down there.

KidPanama... I am from NYC also & do understand your frustration with SONY.
From which Store did you Purchase the TV Set? Drop me an Email... I may be able to help!

I bought my 34xbr800 in Feb 2003. It was manufactured in Jan 2003. I first saw an HD picture on it when a friend hooked up his HTPC to my TV. The vertical line was painfully obvious in any scene. Shortly after, I bought a Samsung SIR-T165 HD Receiver. I couldn't see the vertical bar anymore when the T165 was hooked up, and I reported in this thread that all was well.

Last night I saw a movie with all the lights off in my room. The movie was Star Trek: Nemesis. I have a DVD player hooked up to the component inputs on the T165, and the T165 is hooked up to output 1080i to my TV using a DVI cable. I saw the vertical line again. It is not obvious, but it can be seen when the scene is dark (like a space background, common in star trek movies) and the room I am watching the TV in is pitch black.

So to all those who think their problem might be resolved - check again. I thought it was gone, but it's actually still there. Just harder to see, but it does interfere with the picture.

Colefrance, I bought my set from Sunshine Electronics online. They are located in Coney Island. Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated. I'm sure Sony was in denial with you too. It's really a shame, since other than the 1080i "line of interference" I love the set. My e-mail is D_jimenez127@hotmail.com. As of tomorrow a local Sony authorized repair center by the name of Pyramid is going to take a look at the set. Thanks again.

Good news. Got back from vacation and tried the HDPT fix on my new 34XBR800(Sony did an exchange for my old one)- so far no white vertical line!!

Not so good news. Tech came out last week and looked at the board. He said it had all that was needed and just changed the settings in service menu. Problem still there. He called Sony and they said the board was missing a shield and they are sending out a new board. Does anyone know if this will solve the problem? Also, will the tech need to se-set the service menu settings back to factory presets? Thanks!

MnGuy,

I think the frustrating thing for most of us is there doesn't seem to be a for sure fix. Sony replaced my B board(if I recall) 3 times and it never worked. Some people say it did work for them. My fix came thru a TV exchange and the HDPT fix.

Frustrating. I love my TV otherwise..can't wait to get this problem resolved. I wonder at what point Sony will give me a new one, although mine was manufactured May of 2003 so I don't know what good that will do.

You want to talk about frustrating? After getting no help from Sony whatsoever, I still called their so-called authorized service centers and for what? I have been stood up 3 times in one week's time. The first authorized center (Pyramid in Brooklyn) said last week that they would show up between 1-5pm on Thursday. Of course they never showed up. So I called them, and after being put on hold for literally 20 mins., the guy said he made a mistake and actually meant Friday between 1-5pm (riiiiggghhtt). So gave gave him the benefit of doubt, and Friday came and went with no tech visit whatsoever. Talk about getting shafted. I then called the other Sony authorized service center in Brooklyn (Ganmar), who swore they would call me back either Thursday or Friday to schedule an appointment. Lo and behold, they also never called back with the "appointment date". Now I'm stuck with an ~ $2000 TV that I can't enjoy because of problem that won't be corrected any time soon. I have a question, since the 36XBR800 weighs 240 lbs., will they actually repair it in-home, or try to take it back to the "lab" to play with it. I had bad experiences with these repair shops taking sets back to the lab. The sets often come back with the problem uncorrected and a bunch of new marks and nicks on the chassis.

I have been lurking here for a while worrying about this vertical bar problem. My 40xbr also has this happening. called Sony today and surprise, they have never heard of the problem. Mine was manufactured in march 03. Only problem i have is that I can only see the bar if I flip to a blank screen and jack the brightnes all the way up. I have yet to see it when viewing any kind of show nomatter what the brightness setting. The only reason i am concerned is that at some point i will change from this sir-151 and go with direct tv or dish and from what i've read in this thread some don't have this problem real bad until they switch 1080i sources then it may show worse. Anyway, I scheduled an authorized sony repair guy for tomorrow and i'll report back what happens.

chris

woodrow,

Is it a scrolling line or static?

It's a faint white bar scrolling from right to left. About once a second or so.

By the way, i went into the service menu and tried the fix but no luck.

Woodrow, sorry to hear that. If it were static, it may have been the wire holding the grill. So far, my 40"er does not have this problem. Good luck on your service call.

Thanks anyway for the input. Starting to think about cancelling the service call since watching Leno tonight. I did everything I could to see the bar and could not. Think I'll just call Ultimate E. and let them document that I'm having this problem. That way if I change 1080i sources and it worsens they'll have it on record. Plus I bought the 5 year warranty through them so if the problem ever does worsen I think I'm alright. Leno looked to good tonight to let a tech go screwing with the service menu or worse still opening the back of the tv when I don't think he can do anything anyway.

Well the tech called today to get directions and I told him I wanted to cancel as I could only show him the problem at night with a completely darkened room. He proceeded to tell me he needed to come get my set and keep it for 3-5 days to fix a problem with these sets called "vertical compression". From what I understand (and I could be wrong) vertical compression is 16x9 squeeze mode. I got a serious feeling this guy was up to no good as he wanted to take a 306 lb. TV out of my house without even looking at it. In the end I told him if it needed to be taken out of the house Ultimate E. would be replacing it not fixing it. So for now I'm going to forget about this and enjoy HD until if/when this bar becomes more apparent. Anyone know what vertical compression is for sure? I thought vertical compression was a feature on a tv not a defect!

thanks

Sorry to hear that Woodrow. I'm afraid I may have the same problem with one of the service centers in NYC. Sorry to say, but a lot of the techs I've met myself are clueless.

what a great thread...

Woodrow I feel for you. I experienced the same problem w/ Sony's so called authorized service techs! What a joke. I'm in the same boat as I was unable to get my issue resolved b/c my tech informed Sony that I had no issue and was repeaired to Sony's specs! What a crock the guy was about 70 years old and was never able to see the verticle line. I begged and pleaded w/ Sony and other repair shops locally to no avail b/c of this one tech. I finally gave up and just live with the issue. I even went as far as offering to bring the TV to them and explained if they replaced the "B" board my problem would be resolved, but nope b/c it has been repaired to specs! Arrrggggg I will never own another Sony! Just my .02 cents.
\

I have a mild version of the problem on the KV-34XBR2. The Sony tech saw it and promised to get back to me, but I never heard from him again. I don't think they have a solution for my set. It doesn't sound like they have solid fixes for the other models either.

Given how great the set is in almost every other way, I put up with it. I changed my Explorer 4200HD to output 720p (once I learned how) and I use 1080i only for true HD material.

I have two other minor complaints with the set:

- Mine and most demos I saw have a static convergence problem in the upper right corner. I'm afraid to get it adjusted because they will almost certainly create problems elsewhere on the screen.

- The lower right has a slight downward bend which I couldn't completely fix with the setup menu.

These are really small things and the picture is otherwise striking. You have to go to a high-end plasma display to get anything that approaches the color and contrast of the Sony CRTs. Perfection would be nice, but close is OK too.

I agree this will also be my last sony tv. Once you buy it they could care less if it works. Also there is an online magazine that reviews one of the new sony sets and in that article the guy mentions the fact that there have been problems with vertical bars in sony sets the last 12 months. Seems funny to me that this guy writing an article knows of the problem with these sets but sony still doesn't. What a crock. The article is at

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/reviews.php?reviewid=2404

I also have this issue with my 32HV600. I purchased the set 2/03, date of mfg. is 1/03. Didn't realize it until this week when I bought the Sony HD STB. I immediately noticed the hue changes on flesh tones. Then I saw the vertical lines after going to HDNet then switching to a non-working channel (dark screen, ch.50). This is ridiculous!

The mfg. warranty states 90 days labor. Does anyone know if Sony is charging to come out to fix the problem if you are outside of the 90 day period? I will make an issue of this if they do charge because the problem cannot be seen until you hook up a HD STB. The defect has obviously been there since it was new.

I am calling the place I bought it from on Monday and then Sony. Can anyone tell me how to enter the service mode for my set or point me to where I can find out how? I printed the post on 4/15 #278 explaining the changes.

Somewhere in this thread there are service menu insrtuctions. If you are worried about your warranty coverage I'm not sure you want to do this unless you are sure of what you're doing. I was going to but I thought it would be just like sony to claim I caused the problems by entering service mode.

Bryan1701HD

There is a fix for the XBR2 HA3 chassis. It is similar to the fix for the XBR800/HS500 with touch-ups to the brightness and color. Ask for the service bulletin. It requires setting the MID1 DPSW value from 0 to 1 at the same time as the value of OP HDPT is changed from 1 to 0.

Now back to the problem in DA4 chassis for the XBR/HS.

From what I can read, the vertical bar problem stems from the fact that when the video signal enters the DRC/MID circuits on the 'B' board in 1080i, it exits with a horizontal frequency that is generated by the board's internal clock and this internal clock is around 1080i and independent of the same signal's horizontal frequency as it leaves the studio.

Then the slightly un-synced horizontal signal goes on to fire up the high voltage flyback transformer (30 kilovolts) and all this energy gets radiated back into the input circuits. The radiated pulses superimpose themselves adjacent to the original signal's horizontal pulses and you now have a slow moving parade of vertical bars on the screen.

There are two ways to solve this problem.

The first is getting the DRC/MID circuits to abandon using the internal clock and use the horizontal sync pulses of the incoming 1080i signal, whether it enters as components or DVI. For incoming 720P or 480P, the internal clock could still be used because although the bars will still be there, they move too fast to be visible.

The second way is to activate the circuit which allows the video signal to bypass completely the DRC/MID circuits thereby using the original studio generated horizontal sync pulses embedded in the video signal.

I believe Sony has opted for the second solution because they insist that the service menu patch can only work if the 'B' board has the bypass parts present. If the owner wants to activate the twin view feature, then we have no choice but to send the signal into the MID circuit with the risk of using its out of sync internal clock.

Some XBR owners have reported in this thread that their sets already had the necessary parts on the 'B' board and it was only by changing HDPT from 1 to 0 that they got the problem to go away.

Which leaves me with the question: Do our sets leave the factory programmed never to use the bypass circuit for 1080i (nor 720p nor 480p)?

Also, does anyone know what MID1 DPSW is for?

Originally posted by montreal
Also, does anyone know what MID1 DPSW is for?The description that I was able to find for this SM entry is "Display PLL (Phase-Locked-Loop) Switch". There are two mode settings on the DA4 chassis for this entry: 1080i Single and Other. I have no idea what this entry actually does. Maybe one of our more enlightened members can educate the rest of us.

Hope this helps.

Does anyone know what the 4:3 diagonal measurement is when viewing SD cable with the grey bars on these 34" sets is??

Originally posted by montreal
Bryan1701HD

There is a fix for the XBR2 HA3 chassis. It is similar to the fix for the XBR800/HS500 with touch-ups to the brightness and color. Ask for the service bulletin. It requires setting the MID1 DPSW value from 0 to 1 at the same time as the value of OP HDPT is changed from 1 to 0.


Montreal -

Thanks for the tip on the XBR2. Alas, I tried the HDPT fix and so did the tech along with some other things. Changing it to 0 resulted in a greatly exaggerated scrolling bar. He had called the "home office" for the fix. He took pictures of the problem and I never heard from him again. (My set was manufactured in February, 2002.) This set's problem is not severe and the bar doesn't affect the color as it scrolls. I'm going back in to setup just to be sure about the MID1 DPSW, but I don't think this works on my set.

- Bryan

Originally posted by tyottx2
Does anyone know what the 4:3 diagonal measurement is when viewing SD cable with the grey bars on these 34" sets is??
When using the set's own NTSC tuner, 4:3 was described as being 27" and I verified this with a tape measure. I think this image is cropped too much and there is no way to adjust this as far as I know.

The image is about 29" diagonal through my 4200HD box. The box crops it less and apparently zooms it a bit as well. Your box may be different.

- Bryan

NOTICE: I do not recommend anyone Activating DPSW by changing it's value to 1. It will affect the Circuitry in your IF Amplifier with perhaps a loss of Display (picture)... it was NOT intended for this purpose!

NOTICE: I do not recommend anyone Activating DPSW by changing it's value to 1. It will affect the Circuitry in your IF Amplifier with perhaps a loss of Display (picture)... it was NOT intended for this purpose!

Cole,

Then why is this patch in the service bulletin for the fix on HA3 chassis along with HDPT?

As well, DPSW is a MID1 parameter and the MID circuit is far downstream from the IF amplifier which is only used in the tuner to decode the RF signal.

Just called Sony and they are coming to my home to replace the B board on Tuesday, 8/12. No charge to me even though I'm outside of my labor warranty. I feel this was just because there is no way to know about the vertical bar problem until you hook up a HD STB. I have the 32HV600.

I have the same proble with the 40XBR800 using a Zenith HD reciever. It is very annoying once you have noticed it. I did a lot of research before making the purchase but did not read any reviews about this problem. It is most noticible on HBO HD via Direct TV. Discovery is a little better. The point is that the TV does not do what it is suppose to. It is a product defect and Sony should be aware of this. Any progress in getting Sony's attention on this subject?

The Sony repairman just finished replacing the B board in my 32HV600 and the vertical bar issue has been corrected! He did need to make a change in the service menu after replacing the board. Also, he took a chip from my original B board and put it in the new board. This chip has information related to geometery, settings, etc... and by keeping my original chip, I am assurred the TV image will look the same as it did before. You might want to make sure the repairman does this step if you are getting your B board changed.

Total repair time was 40 minutes.

Finally fixed here!!! Only trouble is my color is slightly off. He said it could be calibrated out so i'm real happy. I swear I have been seeing rolling white bars when I close my eyes. Sure is strange looking for but not seeing the dreaded white bar.

Does the new 34" TV (34XBR910) have this problem?

Anyone with a 910 that can confirm this?

I discussed this in a separate post. I'll quote it here:

"My saga in a nutshell. Purchased a 34 XBR 800 in June. Loved the set until i noticed a vertical bar moving right to left in 1080i mode that slightly discolored the picture as it moved across.

After two unsuccessful attempts by Sony to fix it (one in the service menu, the other changing the B and M boards) I called CC who agreed to replace it with a 910 if I paid the price difference. I agreed. I love the new set--although much to my chagrin there is still a vertical bar. The bar is not noticeable in pro or movie modes, and barely, just barely, noticeable in standard. It is clear in vivid, but vivid sucks so who cares. Since I can't see the bar unless i really try to in standard, I am keeping the TV and am not going to worry about it. The PQ is stunning in my opinion. I don't notice a difference in D* SD, but i think that 1080 looks even better than with the 800, which i thought was spectacular. Anyone else seeing the dreaded vertical bar? It is most noticeable in a dark room and dark picture. The best way to look for it is to change the channel from 81 to 85 (the PPV channel) and watch the black screen.

MAN!!! How is it possible Sony hasn't fixed this yet??? Now its in the 910??
I'm starting to wonder about Sony.

Someone in another post does not have the the problem and thinks it is a problem with my set-up, for what this is worth.

Then hopefully the 910's are fine after all. If those bars were in the new sets I wouldn't know what to think.

Woodrow check out the last page of the 910 review thread for discussion...

Originally posted by woodrow
Then hopefully the 910's are fine after all. If those bars were in the new sets I wouldn't know what to think.


I purchased a 34xbr800 Aug 2002 and immediately noticed the white bar problem in 1080i. It was finally repaired by a sony tech this January. Just a service menu fix. Well my xbr800 went completely dark on July 10th and after 7 weeks and 4 attempts by sony tech to repair, Sony finally replaced it with the 34xbr910 this week. I too was shocked to find the same scrolling right to left white bar problem visible in the 1080i mode on the 910. Also there is more bowing than I can live with, but other than those two problems I am enjoying the PQ. After a few more break in hours I will get a tech out here again. What ever happened to quality control?

MrFister,

Check out my discussion with MnGuy in the 910 review thread.

If you really care about eliminating the vertical bar problem, you have to step back and clear your mind of the obvious. It's not the TV.

I went to a BB, and saw the vertical bar problem on every HD set that were using the same feed. It's in the source. In the BB case and in your case, the noise coupling is either in the STB, cabling, or just the lousy environment (RF/EMI wise).

The Sony tech killed your XBR800 by taking the CRT to the extreme in an attempt to hide the external noise. The same thing will happen to your 910, and whatever TVs you bring home. Unless you fix the source of the noise, you'll just keep killing one TV after the next.

Get or borrow a new STB to start. Use a different brand. Go to CC and "borrow" a Hughes E86. Of course, your cabling and environment could be the problem too. Bottom line: it's not the TV.

quote
went to a BB, and saw the vertical bar problem on every HD set that were using the same feed. It's in the source

I agree either it is in the source or it could be a combination of New Technologies and the Architecture of proprietary chips set's. There are too many set's from different companies that have had similar problems.

Get or borrow a new STB to start. Use a different brand. Go to CC and "borrow" a Hughes E86. Of course, your cabling and environment could be the problem too. Bottom line: it's not the TV.

NTN1,

Bottom line, it is the TV.

This problem occurs even when a digital DVI signal arrives at the TV. There is no way an analog ghost can get into a digital signal and cause a scrolling vertical bar. This has been documented to happen even with a test generator hooked up, or an XBOX. No long, leaky cables in either case.

We have been discussing this problem at length in another thread on signal paths within the Sony started by ADU.


We know that the source of the problem is that the Sony synthesizes a scan frequency that approximates the 1080i sync rate arriving from the studio. The slight difference in phase between the incoming and outgoing signals creates a vertical bar that scans across the screen at a rate of about 1 hz.

Sony's fix lets the original input sync signal pass straight through (bypass) the set so that the final CRT drive circuit is running in phase with the incoming sync and any EMF radiated by the fly-back transformer back into the sensitive input circuits is inconsequential because the ghost is hidden in the blanking pulse (re-trace).

If other manufacturers have the same problem, it's because they all use the same concept of having the input and output circuits of their TVs operating independently of each other. This works fine in some countries where the HD sync rates don't make the problem visible, but this problem is there none the less.

I saw the bar on my 800 with component and DVI cable. Haven't tried component with my 910, nor have I tried a different STB.

montreal,

I have followed enough XBR800 threads in the past year to know that the vertical bar problem was design related, so you don't need to educate me here. As a matter of fact, I signed up to this forum to prepare myself for the 800 purchase last year. If it weren't for an unexpected financial need, I would have been a XBR800 owner.

Because it was a widely-reported design problem, I spent countless hours scrutinizing my 910 to make sure it doesn't have the XBR800 issues, and found the 910 not having the vertical bar problem by design.


That being said, it is still possible that some unlucky few would still end up with a lemon.

Because the vertical bar is not a design problem, it is unlikely for an unhappy XBR800 owner to end up with another lemon. I would try another STB. What do you have to lose? Keep an open mind, and try it.

Originally posted by montreal


We know that the source of the problem is that the Sony synthesizes a scan frequency that approximates the 1080i sync rate arriving from the studio. The slight difference in phase between the incoming and outgoing signals creates a vertical bar that scans across the screen at a rate of about 1 hz.



So, it's both in the source and the TV. A source with a slightly different sync rate might not show or enhance even more the white bar depending on how different the phase is between the incoming and outgoing signal. Or do you think that all the studios generate a perfectly stable 1080i sync rate?

I have an XBR800. I was always able to reproduce the bar with a Samsung 165 after pulling the antenna off. Now I have a Motorola 5100 from Comcast and I sometimes see the bar but I cannot reproduce it at will anymore. I have not seen it in a while now. Makes me wonder.

The vertical bar problem is definitely a hardware problem. I called Sony about this back in march. They came to my house tried the service menu fix which did not work. He told me that the engineers were working on a solution. About a month later the tech came back swapped out a circuit board and changed the service menu variable and I have not see the vertical bar since. Overall I was very pleased with the outcome. Hope this gives some people hope.

Mike

A source with a slightly different sync rate might not show or enhance even more the white bar depending on how different the phase is between the incoming and outgoing signal.

lcaamano,

Yes, you're correct, if the sync rate coming from the studio was at exactly the same rate as the internal DRC clock, then the bar would stop scrolling and it might even land in the 'dead' zone that is just outside your view. The dead zone is actually a pause in the regular flow of signal that gives the deflection circuits the needed time to move from the end of one scan line to the beginning of the next, like the carriage on a mechanical typewriter sliding back to its origin. It's more a period in time then a physical space, but its easier to think of the zone as a physical space just beyond the raster.

The odds of the studio generating sync pulses at a perfect rate are infinitesimal. Scan rates are never stable, anymore than your 60 hz power line is stable. There is always some wandering due to the video tape recorder motor not keeping perfect speed, etc.

However different the studio rate may be from the TV's internal clock, this difference will never account for the intensity of the bar. That is the result of the general level of brightness of your screen. But most of all, it is due to the amount of boost that the TVs AGC amplifier has to give to a weak incoming signal in order to normalize its amplitude to the standard 1 volt (approximate).

The more the incoming signal must be boosted, the more the EMF leakage will be amplified and the more the analog video signal will be corrupted with the bar.

The bar has a legitimate right to be there but it must be in phase with the studio generated sync pulse, as is always the case in analog TVs where the bar stays hidden in the dead zone. With digital TVs, you either have to perfectly shield all input circuitry from stray output EMF or you have to turn the TV into a pure analog TV.

The SONY bulletin essentially turns the XBR into on expensive analog TV by activating its dormant analog bypass circuit when it detects 1080i, since this is the only scan rate that makes the bar annoying.

Because it was a widely-reported design problem, I spent countless hours scrutinizing my 910 to make sure it doesn't have the XBR800 issues, and found the 910 not having the vertical bar problem by design.

NTN1,

The only way that the XBR910 could not have the vertical bar problem by design is if SONY redesigned the DRC clock to lock onto the incoming sync pulse. Then you have the problem of how to reconcile conflicting incoming sync rates from the different sources in twin view. If your twin view has one of its pictures optimized for one 480p source, then what happens if the other 480p source being displayed in tandem is slightly out of sync with the first? The output circuit radiates EMF into both incoming sources, but only one of those sources is protected. The unprotected image in the twin view would be vulnerable. This is less of a problem when not using twin view, but you would then need a phase-lock-loop circuit for every native scan rate that the display can handle. With so many different HD rates in so many countries, Sony would have to customize every B board for every international market. Have they done that with the XBR910?


To have the freedom to display any combination of image in any scan rate, you have to completely isolate the input circuits from the output circuits and that requires perfect shielding and full strength input signals.

In an imperfect manufacturing and transmission world, that is a very tall order to fill.


Because the vertical bar is not a design problem, it is unlikely for an unhappy XBR800 owner to end up with another lemon.

After all I have written, do you still think that the vertical bar is not a design problem?

Montreal:

Thanks for that explanation. Now my head hurts! I can see the bar very slightly in standard mode on my new 910. Is there anything I can or should do about it or is it best to just live with it?

montreal,

You are getting too technical for me. Only a person who really knows about TV design would be able to follow and comment on your explanation.

I don't have the vertical bar problem on my 910. That's enough for me.

As for the XBR800 owners, who have transitioned to the 910, still got the vertical bar problem with your same old setup (STB, cabling, environment, etc), and refused to look beyond the TV, my final comment is: Learn to live with it, because there probably isn't another HDTV that would work with your gear. Happy fixing and swapping TVs. Peace!

Originally posted by NTN1
MrFister,

Get or borrow a new STB to start. Use a different brand. Go to CC and "borrow" a Hughes E86. Of course, your cabling and environment could be the problem too. Bottom line: it's not the TV.

My 34xbr910 is hooked up exactly like I had my 34xbr800. I have two STBs one is a Sony HD-200 attached to input 7 (DVI) and the other is a General Instrument HDD-201 which goes to input 5 (component). Both STBs are exhibiting the small white scrolling vertical line once again. As I mentioned before I had the problem resolved by a Sony tech with my 34xbr800 by just an adjustment in my service mode. It never returned until now with my replacement 34xbr910. If I had to guess as lay man I would say this points strongly to the TV. Others have had this same problem resolved with an adjustment or part replaced both to the TV. Last I knew Sony recognized this problem with the xbr800 last December and issued a fix bulletin.

I'm one of the few unhappy XBR800 owners who still have the vertical bar problem and have had no luck fixing it, especially with Sony's complete denial of the problem. I've had one tech come over, an older man, and he was so impressed by the picture, I don't think he was paying attention to the bar which I had described to him. He saw it it (in ambient light, which makes it more difficult to see clearly) and said maybe it's a powerspike. This is not the case, I use a Monster Cable surge protector and line conditioner. He also suggested that maybe it's the cable box. Also not the case, I use the brand new Pioneer HD cable box through the DVI connection. The line is less visible using the DVI connection (but by no means transparent) as opposed to component video. I know that to some people, it may just sound like I'm nitpicking, but this is not the case. The technician came when it was broad daylight, and I'm sure that most of you can relate that the problem is a hell of a lot less apparent in the daytime. But believe me when I tell you that the problem is clear as day in the night time in Standard mode, and I watch my movies with the brightness and contrast down. At night, when I watch HD Showtime or HD HBO, I have to see the dreaded bar interupt an otherwise beautiful picture. I have to accept that every second a guy's fleshtone will change and some blooming will be added to the picture. If this is STB related and not a design flaw, then why is it that the vertical bar is crystal clear on D-Theater movies through my D-VHS player? That would make all my equipment defective, and only the Sony flawless. Highly unlikely IMHO. Sony's quality control has gone downhill after the 32XBR100 (the last flawless set) if you ask me. Now I'm waiting for the technician to call Sony and get back to me (right, I'll hold my breath). To add insult to injury, I opted for the 36XBR800, as opposed to the 34XBR800 because I watch a lot of 4:3 programming, so it's HIGHLY unlikely that Sony would ever exchange it for the 34XBR910. I swear, I see the vertical bar in my sleep. I really don't know what to do anymore.

This is another very excellent example of why I purchased a CC Extended Warranty w/my XBR. If this had happened to me, by now I'd be looking at either a brand new TV, a Plasma, or a model upgrade. KidPanama, I'm sorry to learn of your problems w/Sony and getting your TV fixed, and I do hope you find a resolution to your problem.

KidPanama
It sounds like Sony is denying your problem that they know exists in certain line. Why not go back over this thread from the beginning (although
a hassle) as you read thru there are specific serial numbers and dates of manufacture that stand out. There are also telephone numbers of Sony
reps who have more experience with this problem, even if they are in a
different state they should be able to help you. As far as the decline of
Sony within the last couple of years I tend to agree with you but I also
think it is a industry decline. Now their top XBR cost as much as a Car
that makes even the top CRT not even in the same ballpark as their
entry level "flat" Display. They go where the money is.

To DNINE, or anyone who may know for that matter. Say I'm just completely fed up, and tell Sony I no longer want the TV anymore and want a different model or a refund, can they do anything about that? Don't get me wrong, if the line wasn't there I would be ecstatic about the TV ( I can tell you, there's nothing worse then a pristine HD image ruined by a 2 or 3 inch vertical, blooming bar). I ask this only because my window for a refund or replacement TV is closed , from the store I bought the set from anyway. Since my XBR800 has a 2 year warranty like everyone else's here, I feel Sony is no responsible and should either fix it, give me a replacement ( or equal or higher value), or just give me a full refund, stand and all so I can get another HD set that is free of these abnormalities and has competent tech support. What do you think? To be quite honest, all I want is an uncompromising fix for the problem ( because other fixes do compromise PQ, even if just slightly. Besides, they didn't work for me anyhow). It's been nearly a year, yet Sony still has no fix, and denies the problem. I've only had my set two months, and haven't really been able to enjoy HD programming because of the bar. Let me make it clear to other people. there is nothing wrong with my STB( or your's for that matter) it's a Sony problem. I have a Pioneer HD cable box, and a JVC D-VHS, and there is no way that both of them can be defective. The set is defective, end of story. BTW, the tech the saw it was 70-ish, and has not called me back since. It's been 3-weeks+. I'm really fed up, as I'm sure most of you are, but the only difference is that I refuse to just "live" with this problem.

I really don't know what to do anymore.

KidPanama,

Just make sure your 'B' board ( large "B" etched on upper right corner of front side) has the bypass components mounted on it (chip IC3414 has M52055FP stamped on it), version 325-A or 327-A, and apply the software patch as outlined earlier in this thread. It's Sony service bulletin number E18728143. Search the forum for this number.

In bypass mode, it's impossible to see the bar because the CRT drive is locked on the 1080i input signal. You also get a crisper picture in 1080i (DVI and components) because the A/D,DRC,MID, and D/A circuits are no longer in the internal transmission path.

P.S. Was your set made in Mexico last fall?

Hey Montreal,

Thanks for the reply. As for the "B" board thing, I have no way of knowing since I never opened up the set. I wish I knew for sure. Normally, I have no qualms about going into service menus, but I have never opened up a set before. As for whether or not it was manufactured in Mexico, I never checked to be honest. I do know that it was manufactured in April 2003, if that holds any significance. Is there an easy way to check for the "B" board? If it doesn't sound to advanced, I may try to look for it. Thanks in advance.

KidPanama,

Ask Sony if they will E-Mail you a copy of the service bulletin bearing the same reference number E18728143. There are two different patches included, one when the B board is swapped, and the second for the cleanup after OP HDPT is changed from 1 to 0.

This should also include a photo of the B board with a red circle around one of the two obligatory chips.

Pre-tune an RF source (get rabbit ears if needed to pick up a local station).

Go into the service menu and see if OP HDPT was set to zero by the tech who came to service your set.

If not equal zero, start by assuming that you have the correct B board and do the patches related to HDPT. Don't do the patch that is only required when the B board is swapped, as you're not swapping this board just yet.

If OP HDPT was already at 0, then I assume you have the wrong B board. Proceed to verify this.

If you have the DA-4 chassis (see label on back of set, also lists location of manufacture) then I believe your B board will be located in the same position as in my 34XBR800.

Take a flashlight and look into the set from the rear right side. By right side, I mean the side that is on the right as you face the screen from your normal viewing position.

The B board is the first board visible behind the aluminum ribbed heat sink. It is vertically mounted above the mother board, about 4 by 10 inches long and its horizontal axis runs front to back.

You should see a large B and the word SONY in the top right hand corner of the green board as you look in from the side. There is a smaller board that appears attached to the B board at the left of it.

Now if you feel confident, you can unscrew all the star head screws holding the back cover on the set. First unplug the set from the line voltage.

You will also have to free up the plate that presents all the video and audio connectors by unscrewing all screws in that location.

The cover should freely pull away and with adequate lighting you should be able to see the B board up close. Look for the numbers 325-A or 327-A either etched in the lower part of the board or printed on a paper label stuck on to the board at the top (one side or the other). This should give you a better idea of your version number.

Using the service bulletin photograph, try to locate the critical chip shown in the red circle. It is called chip IC3413 and has TC74LVX157FT printed on it. It's a 16 pin chip and located on the B board about a third in from the left and a third down from the top, on the side of the board facing outward, so there's no need to unplug the board.

If the part is there and HDPT is 0 and you still have the scrolling bar, then I can't help you.

If the part is not there, remove the board and take it to your Sony depot and ask for a replacement. They will have to transfer the non-volatile memory chip from the old board to the new one. This chip has all the data that was customized for your picture tube.

Install the new board, put the cover back on, and plug in the set to the wall socket.

Follow the bulletin to apply the patches related to swapping the B board.

Then you will have to apply all the service menu patches as outlined on the bulletin related to HDPT. Be sure your set is first tuned to the RF input before changing OP HDPT from 1 to 0.

Then feed your set with a 1080i source from your STB and depending on whether you have components or DVI inputs or both, follow the flowchart.

I give you all this info as a courtesy with no liability if you don't follow the instructions properly.

KidPanama,

My posts only apply to the ex-800-and-now-910 owners, who continue to have vertical bar problem and refuse to take the right step to fix it. They should learn to live with it, or keep fixing swapping TVs until they are tired of fixing swapping.

You have the 800, then it is your TV that has the problem. I have seen the vertical bar on the 800/510 myself, but not on the 910. There is no reason for anyone to live with this problem. It's unbearable. By all means, keep pressuring Sony to fix or upgrade your TV. Good luck!

Does anyone have a copy of the E18728143 patch that they could email me?

I've both placed a call to Sony and attempted at using their (broken) web support email client. Sony Support told me they don't have patches to email, and if they did, only techs can get them. Then they typed something for about 2 minutes. I'm sure it's something about voiding my warranty :)!

My email is saydee47@hotmail.com

Thanks.

I have a 32hs500 that has been fixed. Will the same fix work on a 32hs510.
The sony tech said sony did not list a fix for hs510.

I've suffered from this problem on my 34XBR800 (built in November 2002) only on the DVI input (from a Bravo D1). No problem on 1080i component inputs (either from the Bravo or from my 3100HD cable box). Also my line ran left to right - not right to left as most people experience.

I called my local favorite TV repair service (Leader TV in Rochester), explained the problem, told them about this thread and gave them the Sony ESI Service Bulletin number. They ordered a replacement "B" board and came to my house Friday. The service tech was armed with the service bulletin and first checked that the Service Menu "fix" did not work. When he saw no change he opened the set and checked the "B" board. Sure enough the board was missing the needed parts. He put the replacement board in, went through the Service Menu settings again, and the problem was fixed!

I strongly suggest finding a local COMPETENT Authorized Sony service center and call them directly. Tell them about the problem, that you researched this on the Web, and that you know that Sony ESI bulletin E18728143 addresses the problem. They may be skeptical at first, but if they check it out they will "be with you".

Does a KV-32hs510 need a new b board to fix the 1080i problem?

Yes, I understand that the Sony Service Bulletin for this also lists the following:

KV30XBR910, KV32HS500, KV32HS510, KV32HV600, KV34HS510, KV34XBR800, KV34XBR910, KV36HS500, KV36HS510, KV36XBR800, KV40XBR800

I have been trying to decide between the Sony KV34HS510 and a few other sets.
Does anyone know if this problem has been resolved in production?
If so, is there a date of manufacture that I should look for?

Apart from the emergency patch which many say works great, I doubt that Sony can fix the problem by only upgrading their software. They would have to re-engineer the B board by adding a new phase lock loop to synchronize the master DRC clock to the incoming 1080i sync pulses. Right now the DRC clock is slightly out of sync with the incoming 1080i signal.

The B board in my XBR set is imported from Japan prior to assembly in the USA. These B boards have had many years of testing in Japan before their introduction into the North American market.

With Sony's plans to soon get out of the CRT business, I doubt that they are ready to go to the trouble to design a replacement B board only for the sake of existing customers.

Plasma and LCD sets don't have this problem because they don't use high voltage horizontal fly-back transformers which can radiate the slightly out of phase 1080i signal back into the input wiring of the set.

Sears tech came and fixed my kv32hs510 with menu changes.

...revised...

Do you know if it was by changing the HDPT value or was he able to minimize the bar by changing brighness ect. in the service menu?

He made all the changes listed in the patch.

Cool. Have you been able to notice any difference in PQ after the fix? Besides the bar being gone.

I have been trying to decide between the Sony KV34HS510 and a few other sets.
Does anyone know if this problem has been resolved in production?
If so, is there a date of manufacture that I should look for?


Originally posted by montreal
Apart from the emergency patch which many say works great, I doubt that Sony can fix the problem by only upgrading their software. They would have to re-engineer the B board by adding a new phase lock loop to synchronize the master DRC clock to the incoming 1080i sync pulses. Right now the DRC clock is slightly out of sync with the incoming 1080i signal.

The B board in my XBR set is imported from Japan prior to assembly in the USA. These B boards have had many years of testing in Japan before their introduction into the North American market.

With Sony's plans to soon get out of the CRT business, I doubt that they are ready to go to the trouble to design a replacement B board only for the sake of existing customers.

Plasma and LCD sets don't have this problem because they don't use high voltage horizontal fly-back transformers which can radiate the slightly out of phase 1080i signal back into the input wiring of the set.

Originally posted by WidescreenDream
I think this may be a problem with all tube widescreens. I recently purchased a Samsung 3096whf 30" widescreen and had exactly the same problem. Light vertical bands whenever the picture pans with either a light or dark solid background. Very annoying, so annoying in fact I returned the tv.

I just received a brand new TXN3075whf, Samsungs new 30" for this year, and it does not have the problem, or at least to a degree it is noticeable. Either they fixed the problem or I just got a lucky set.

I know all the tv manufacturers share components and technologies so I am sure it is a design flaw. It is also noticeable from any source on a lot of sets I have played with at different stores.

My friend has a Toshiba 34HDX82 and he also suffers from a horizontal band as well as the vertical! I just hope my new set does not develope this problem. Also a lot of projection tv's have the same affliction so it is just not a direct view problem.

Originally posted by auburn97
I'm not a Sony owner, but I have experienced a similar problem with the new Toshiba 34" widescreens. I bought a 34HD82 and noticed a vertical bar like you describe, but it is stationary in the very center of the screen. Only visible on lighter backgrounds, such as watching a hockey match or football game, golf, etc. I returned the 34HD82 last weekend and tried the 34HDX82- when I hooked it up last night- exact same problem. I wonder if there is some inherent design flaw with direct-view widescreens?

Originally posted by scotty12321
I was thinking about returning my Toshiba 34HD82 and getting a Sony, but it seems the Sony has as many, if not more, problems than the Toshiba. At least I usually do not see the line down the center of the screen in the Toshiba or the slight discoloration on the sides of the screen. I need to make a decision this week because the 30 day return period will be up. Maybe I will just return the TV and wait a couple of years when the technology has been perfected.

You just don't want to spend $2000 on a TV in order to get a great picture and then have to deal with lines and discolorations on the screen.

Sony KV32FQ75 vertical scrolling bar problem
Robbo
Sony Fan
Joined: Sep 24, 2002
Posts: 1
From: Somerset
Posted: 2002-09-24 20:52

Those who are experiencing this problem may be interested in this statement sent by Sony UK to Home Cinema Choice Online in July about complaints concerning visible vertical scrolling bars on FQ75 and DS60 sets. Unfortunately, it looks like there is no total fix for it. Some insulation issues and the J-board that connects to the scart sockets are rumoured to have also contributed to these visible artefacts but for Sony's explanation of the causes, read on....

"The 100Hz scan system is used in most large screen quality television receivers and is recognised as giving the best possible picture quality and over comes the Wide Area Flicker, characteristics of 50Hz TV. This system is called "Flicker Free”.

Various 100Hz scanning techniques have been developed such as AABB, ABAB and Motion Compensated Interlaced but all of the system variants inherit an unavoidable side effect known, as "100Hz Seam". This refers to the visual artefact it causes within the picture, seen as a narrow vertical stripe with reduced brightness. It is important to note that this is NOT a fault condition.

This unwanted "100Hz Seam" can be seen as either Stationary or Moving. This depends on how the System's Processor is Locked. A 100Hz up-conversion circuit's clock can either be Locked or Unlocked to the 50Hz video's synchronising pulses. In a Locked system the "100Hz Seam" is stationary. In an Unlocked System it moves. Sony's highest quality 100Hz Systems are based on Unlocked Processing techniques, which means this "100Hz Seam" is moving in a Wiper Motion across the picture. Whether moving or not the seam can only be noticed under certain viewing conditions.

Due to extreme sensitivity to this seam by a small number of consumers, Sony has taken strong steps to reduce the visibility to the lowest possible level. The residual level now visible on Sony models can only be noticed under extreme picture content and viewing conditions.

Whilst Sony takes great care to listen and understand the views of consumers, it is necessary in this situation to be very clear that this artefact is not one that can be totally eliminated and does not affect the fitness of the product to meet its purpose. Sony will therefore not accept claims for repair or replacement of products for this condition other than for those sets that were produced before the final improvements were available. For those sets identified as requiring modification, this will be undertaken by the supplying dealer or service agent with direct support from Sony.

In the first instance, customers should contact Sony’s customer service centre on 08705 111999."




Thanks for the response!
I am also looking at the Toshiba 34HF83
However someone posted in this thread as possibly seeing similar problems in all 16:9 tubes.
Can anyone verify that the 34HF83 would have similar problems?

There's a thread labeled "sony explains vertical sweeping bar". You'll find in there that the bar cannot be completely eliminated. As Montreal says, on this side of the ocean it can be eliminated with a patch. I believe that this patch is not done at the factory because it degrades the PQ. Others will disagree. Until someone gives a reasonable explanation as to why sony DOESN'T do this patch at the factory I'm going to have to believe my own eyes. I believe sony isn't willing to "degrade" all their sets so us few won't see the bar.

Sorry, I see you came across that thread:)

Until someone gives a reasonable explanation as to why sony DOESN'T do this patch at the factory I'm going to have to believe my own eyes.

I believe that there are several reasons why Sony does not do the patch in the factory:

1) As long as the input 1080i signal is very strong, you will not likely see the bar.

2) Many owners don't yet have a 1080i source.

3) Owners with a 720p source will not see the bar.

4) When you apply the patch, you completely bypass all the digital processing done by the DRC and MID-X circuits. In 1080i, you don't need the DRC because you're not line doubling, but the DRC/MID-X does soften the image and allows the factory to apply some of the very fine tuning via the service menu. The patch removes all of this from the signal path and turns the set into an analog monitor. Owners who allow their STB to do all the channel selection and output the result as a 1080i signal will wonder why they spent so much money on a digital television if they can get by so easily in analog only mode.

5) Sony will be leaving the CRT market soon, so how hard do they want to try in perfecting the last generation of Hi-Scan CRT's?

These are some of the reasons why this patch remains a part of SONY folklore for those of us who want to HOT ROD our sets.

The signals in the U.K. referred to in the Sony UK explanation are not HD, they are SD, and their premium sets are simply line doubling a SD signal.
Their scrolling bar may be less noticeable against a lower quality image.
Here with our HD signals being much cleaner than their SD signals, our sets show this flaw more easily. The UK explanation will not fly well this side of the Atlantic and that is why SONY USA has been more responsive.

I realize you know a lot more about this than I and I don't want my questions to sound like I think your wrong or anything I'm just trying to get my arms around this thing. That said, I just received my replacement 40xbr and the vertical bar is twice as visible now than it was before. The signal it's receiving has not changed nor has the equipment, just the set. If it was a weak signal making it visible wouldn't the bar look the same on both sets? The only difference between now and before is this set came way more bright than the last. The thing about the owners who receive a 720p signal makes sense except they would have to be told to set the box at 720p and since the set is 1080i I figure most would set the box at 1080i. About most owners not having HD yet, they will eventually then there's going to be this explosion of people seeing the bar. Why not do the patch at the factory and forget about it. Unless they don't want their sets leaving the factory looking that way and being called sony's best.

After a lot of reading on this site, so far I have not discovered a "problem free" direct view 16:9 set from any manufacturer.

With all that has been said about the Sony problem...
Do you guys think that the Sony sets are worth the money, even with the problem?
Or would I be better off waiting a few months or going with a different set?

Originally posted by woodrow
If it was a weak signal making it visible wouldn't the bar look the same on both sets?

If the two sets were identical, that would be true, but if there is a slight difference in the positioning of the high voltage wires, then this alone could explain why one set has the bar stronger than the other.


Originally posted by woodrow
The thing about the owners who receive a 720p signal makes sense except they would have to be told to set the box at 720p and since the set is 1080i I figure most would set the box at 1080i.

So would I since I don't want to have the STB rescale a 1080i signal to 720p and then have the set rescale it back to 1080i. But if you were looking at ABC HD already at 720p, then you would be stuck having to have one rescaling taking place, either in the STB or in the Sony TV. If the Sony does the 720p to 1080i conversion, then the bar will be there but scrolling so fast that it is effectively invisible.


Originally posted by woodrow
About most owners not having HD yet, they will eventually then there's going to be this explosion of people seeing the bar. Why not do the patch at the factory and forget about it. Unless they don't want their sets leaving the factory looking that way and being called sony's best.

Yes there could be an explosion of people seeing the bar, probably about as many as there are owners of non-DVI socket digital TVs who will find out some day that their STB has been ordered by Hollywood to downrez their HD movie to the DVD quality of 480p.

It's been said before in this forum, the people at Sony who have the power to fix this either have not been told by their underlings, or there is simply too much red ink dripping in their consumer electronics division to support the kind of action that you are justifiably suggesting.

I can't say there not worth the money. Even with these problems they produce a great picture. For me personally, given an opportunity to do it over, I would steer clear of single tube based displays. Could I walk into a hornet's nest going with a plasma? Possibly. I'm trying to do the kind of research on these that I should have done before buying the sony tube. It seems there are tradeoffs nomatter which way you go. The best advice I can give you is find out which "problems" would bother you the most, then go with the display that would eliminate the most of these problems. A perfect example is how plasma's don't do a great job with blacks. Well, this doesn't bother me and won't deter a plasma purchase in my case but you might HATE blacks that aren't black. CRT's do a great job with blacks and maybe the sweeping bar is something that won't bother you so direct view in your case might be the way to go. Anyway, like I said, find out which shortcomings will bother you the most and avoid those displays.

Montreal, thanks for the info your helping me more than you know. About the time I figure this all out Sony will announce a technology switch that eliminates the bar forever!

BTW, is there any way to play with these wires to see if I get any kind reaction as far as the sweeping bar goes. I'd love to go in and fiddle with the wires and try to minimize this thing.

Originally posted by woodrow
I can't say there not worth the money. Even with these problems they produce a great picture. For me personally, given an opportunity to do it over, I would steer clear of single tube based displays. Could I walk into a hornet's nest going with a plasma? Possibly. I'm trying to do the kind of research on these that I should have done before buying the sony tube. It seems there are tradeoffs nomatter which way you go. The best advice I can give you is find out which "problems" would bother you the most, then go with the display that would eliminate the most of these problems. A perfect example is how plasma's don't do a great job with blacks. Well, this doesn't bother me and won't deter a plasma purchase in my case but you might HATE blacks that aren't black. CRT's do a great job with blacks and maybe the sweeping bar is something that won't bother you so direct view in your case might be the way to go. Anyway, like I said, find out which shortcomings will bother you the most and avoid those displays.

Thanks for the recomendations.
My problem is that black levels are important to me but I am also worried about these bars.
I wish that someone could post a picture of this to let everyone see the level of noticeability.
I am also wondering if other manufacturers of 16:9 tubes are having the same problem.
My second choice was the Toshiba 34"

No way to photograph this problem. Very subtle but annoying if you see it. It's one of these things where you can clearly see it but your girlfriend or wife can't nomatter how you try and point it out to her. Another way I like to put it is this. You know those kinds of paintings that look like just a bunch of snow but really contain an elaborate picture of a boat or car or building? Well try as you might you can't find it but once you do you can never go back to not seeing it. You might try the direct-view for 30 days and don't "look" for it. If you don't spot it in 30 days I'd say you're alright.

Originally posted by woodrow
BTW, is there any way to play with these wires to see if I get any kind reaction as far as the sweeping bar goes. I'd love to go in and fiddle with the wires and try to minimize this thing.

Chris,

If you open the back of the set, you'll see a heavy RED? wire that is carrying about 25 thousand volts to the side of the picture tube.
It comes from the fly-back transformer which is fed by wires carrying a much lower voltage but higher current. Anyone of these wires can act like an antenna radiating the 33.75 kHz pulses toward the 'U' card which carries the input sockets.

Don't blow yourself up nor your set. Better to just use the patch.

So you don't think it would be safe to CAREFULLY wiggle the red wire and see if there's any effect? As far as the patch I just can't do it. This is all subjective I know but to me it degrades the picture worse than the bar. It's not the picture I fell in love with. I mean, don't we pay for the sony processing??

Hi All,

Quick question....

Does the KV-30XBR910 also have the vertical bar problem? If so, will the patch (along with the proper b board) correct it?

thanks,

Joe

Originally posted by woodrow
So you don't think it would be safe to CAREFULLY wiggle the red wire and see if there's any effect?


Chris,

I can't endorse anyone wiggling a live wire carrying 31 kilovolts.

If you keep the power off while displacing this wire either to the right or to the left, you might notice a change after you turn the power back on.

The high voltage transformer sends its secondary high voltage wire to the top center of the picture tube. I can't remember if it's black, yellow, or red, but it has the thickness of a coax cable. There are at least 2 other slightly thinner wires that join the same transformer to a circuit card attached at the back of the yoke. Moving any of these may also help you. You might also want to report back the version number of your 'B' board (ex: A1300-327-A) located at left of chassis viewed from rear. If you have the wrong one, that could explain why the patch doesn't help. Where was your XBR assembled, in the US or Mexico? See printing on the back cover.

Remember to keep the power off when repositioning these wires.





Originally posted by jcardani
Does the KV-30XBR910 also have the vertical bar problem? If so, will the patch (along with the proper b board) correct it?



Joe,

There has been at least one post of a bar issue with a XBR910. The patch should work as well for XBR910s as for XBR800s provided you have the correct B board (most have).

Hi Montreal,

Thanks!

I just wasn't sure if the 30" used the same B board as the 34" and if Sony would honor the service on the smaller model. I don't have the TV yet but wanted to double check in case after I buy the TV the vertical bar issue is present.

Joe

After 3 long months of complaining, the Sony finally sent the repair guy the new B board and he finally replaced it today. The procedure took about an hour and a half, and I can easily see how the guy makes his money, because the level of complexity inside a Wega is discouraging for the average Joe. There must be 100 circuit boards and 1000 wires inside that thing. Is any case, he chaged the board, and we checked HD Showtime, HD HBO, and HD PBS to see if the vertical bar reared it's ugly head, initially I had a very hard time locating it because it was and still is broad daylight here in NYC. But I could have sworn I saw it, so I changed the HDPT setting to 0, while watching HD PBS. Sure enough, the line has disappeared, or at least it seems to have in this time of day. Now I have a question for Montreal, all I did was change the HDPT setting while watching an HD program in the service menu, however, maybe it's just my imagination when I tell you that the picture looks the tiniest bit softer now. Is there any reason for that? Also, is there any more tweaks I should apply now to the service menu? Since the technician didn't? All your help is greatly appreciated. Hopefully the bar is completely gone, and not just reduced. Good luck to everyone else still dealing with this nuisance.

See page 14 for the other tweaks.

Kid panama, that's what I've been saying about the patch PQ. It looks SOFT to me. I understand there are other tweaks you can make to improve this but isn't the sony processing you get through the DRC the real tweak.
Montreal, thanks for the advice. I'm gonna try and see if a service tech would displace these wires for me a little. I'm determined to try and minimize this thing rather than go for the patch. Maybe I should let you all know my motivation. I got HD in the first place so I could watch HD football. Well, the vertical bar in invisible during football thanks to the uniform brightness across the screen. Why would I want to soften the picture during what I love most to get rid of a bar I can't see. This thing rears it's head most during things like Law and Order or any moderately dark show. Montreal, If I had your level of knowledge about resolutions and computers and such I'll bet I'd be with you on the PQ but I'll bet you have managed to improve your PQ in ways average people can't. I'd basically have to live with the patched PQ. Don't worry about the wires, I won't touch them without a tech here. 30 kilovolts sure sounds like...well..alot of electricity!

That's what I'm saying Woodrow. I could have sworn that there was some sort of tweak that made the HD picture more detailed, not softer. In any case, the bar that has driven me crazy since the time of purchase, appears to be gone.

I tried just about everything and couldn't get rid of the soft look. Luckily when the guy changed HDPT from 1 to 0 he forgot to save it. When the power went out after a storm it restored the original HDPT setting. That's when I went THERE"S my old crisp picture.

I used to have the Time Warner SA HD Cable box (dont' remember the number but it is posted here numerous times in this thread. I DID NOT see the vertical bar problem discussed in this thread. A few weeks ago the Time Warner here in Cary, NC started offering the new SA HD Cable box -- the Explorer 3250HD. For those of you who had the old box, the new one offered some pretty cool features that the old one didn't, such as being able to view the guide on high def channels and also now stretches the picture on non hd material. Well, after about a week of using this box, while I was watching The Others on Showtime HD, my stomach got weak as I noticed this off color vertical bar that almost pulsed across the screen about ever 2 seconds or so. I knew about this thread and I tried the "quick" fix by going into the service menu and making that one change -- it didn't work. I had a sony tech come over today and he tried to tell me that its not a problem with the tv and that its a time warner problem. I told him that I had the sony ESI bulletin number dealing with the problem but for some reason I couldn't get him to acknowledge it. I sat him down and showed him that people had the problem with satelite also. I was wondering if any of the time warner customers on this thread have gotten the upgraded box and if they have noticed the problem. Sorry for rambling on but I now know how upset everyone is about this problem and just wish that there was some easy way to get this fixed. Thanks in advance for any replies!!
-Dave

This is what's really ticking me off. Sony needs to get off there !#* and make a comprehensive list available as to all of the reasons why this bar might become visible and what steps to take to try and resolve it WITHOUT the patch unless that's what you want. This guys is a perfect example of how it's possible to one minute not ever see this and then change something in your setup and it's there. No, they want you to do this patch and change the picture you've always had so you can change stb's. I mean for gods sake if wire placement or certain stbs can contribute to this why don't they just say so instead of denying that it even exists half the time. I also am getting ready to call and demand to know FROM SONY what changing HDPT from 1 to 0 really does to PQ. It's not their tv anymore it's mine and they aren't going to fix anything, especially something I didn't cause, without telling me what their doing. If they were being HONEST about this, the sweeping bar would be listed in the back of the owners manual in the troubleshooting area. They could list it there along with all the other problems you might encounter with possible solutions such as changing stbs. It could state right there that it's a product of the technology and that nothing can be done short of the patch sometimes. Instead I've got nothing but stonewalling about this. Makes me wonder whether it's a technology issue or a sony design flaw.

woodrow,

HDPT is a 1080i through switch. A "0" means 1080i feedthrough, bypassing the MIDx (MID1, MID2, MID3, MID5) circuitry. A "1" means 1080i will be processed by MIDx circuitry. Whatever that means. Right now, my 910's HDPT is set at "1" (factory default), and I have been tweaking the MIDx parameters to fix the picture overscan, position, and to minimize edge enhancement artifacts.

I wish I have access to the schematic or the block diagram of my 34XBR910, so I can elaborate more on the HDPT parameter and its role in eliminating the vertical bar.

My 910 is working so well that it does not justify a service manual purchase. Someday, something might go wrong. Only then I'll get the service manual.

But why is HDPT in the service menu at all? I don't think it was originally put there to deal with this bar issue. Another question I have that always comes back is why did sony remove the bypass circuit from the B boards early this year and make it harder to apply the fix. IMO, there's something to all this that hasn't been touched on yet. I just don't know what that is. What I'm getting at is this: What does sony REALLY know about this bar and WHEN did they first know it. When Andy64 first contacted sony were they in fact aware of the bar and lie. When I called about the bar and was told noone had ever reported it , was that what the csr had been instructed to say to anyone calling about the problem. They probably hope I'll buy a new set and forget this one, which is probably what will happen.

The bar is very up[setting to all of us. If I only knew about this before I purchased the set. Anyway, I could have sowrn a few people here said that the HDPT tweak was supposed to improve the 1080i picture quality, not soften it, because it bypasses all the sets processing. Did I do something wrong?

It's my belief, and only mine, that the sony processing that is being bypassed is what makes a sony a sony. IMO, the PQ after the fix looks the same as setting my stb to 720p during a 1080i program. It softens it. If I'm right no other service tweaks were made to your set? If so, you can always put HDPT back to 1 and the old picture will return, with the bar however. IMO, the picture you get after the fix is not the picture that made you buy the set in the first place. If bypassing the processing makes the PQ better why is there any processing in there at all? Makes no sense.

Originally posted by KidPanama
The bar is very up[setting to all of us. If I only knew about this before I purchased the set. Anyway, I could have sowrn a few people here said that the HDPT tweak was supposed to improve the 1080i picture quality, not soften it, because it bypasses all the sets processing. Did I do something wrong?

Maybe you can answer my other question KidPanama.
If you had known about the problem before purchasing the set what would you have done instead?
I am interested in this set despite the problem.
But if there is a better way to go I wish someone would tell me before I spend my money....please...

Well JAWJABOY, I can tell you like this. I have been a Sony tube fan for several years , but in my opinion, their quality control within the last couple of years has gone downhill. The XBR800 is a great set, but certain flaws like the vertical bar cannot be ignored. I must have read several reviews before purchasing the set, none of them mentioned the vertical bar problem, which leads me to believe that they (the reviewers) didn't have an HD source. If I knew beforehand, I don't think I would have bought the set. The problem is that Toshiba's, Samsung's, and Panasonic's offerings are no less flawed, and cannot actually match Sony's picture. All I can tell you is to either wait till Sony fixes the problem, get a different type of set (LCD, RPTV, etc.), or buy a different brand. In all honesty, besides the vertical bar, the set's picture is all I could have hoped for.

Originally posted by woodrow
It's my belief, and only mine, that the sony processing that is being bypassed is what makes a sony a sony. IMO, the PQ after the fix looks the same as setting my stb to 720p during a 1080i program. It softens it. If I'm right no other service tweaks were made to your set? If so, you can always put HDPT back to 1 and the old picture will return, with the bar however. IMO, the picture you get after the fix is not the picture that made you buy the set in the first place. If bypassing the processing makes the PQ better why is there any processing in there at all? Makes no sense.

My thoughts exactly. Sony's processing is what we pay for, and is what separates a Sony from a Panasonic or Toshiba. This would explain why 1080i sources look superior with Sony's processing on (HDPT setting at 1).

Boy this sucks, huh. At least we have this forum to compare notes or we'd really be screwed. If sony would just be more helpful about this it wouldn't be nearly as upsetting. I was a sony guy before this and that loyalty is gone.

Just a reminder that this moving vertical problem has various manifestations - it does not always show up on unpatched sets. In my case, it only showed up on a DVI connection, but not on 1080i (from 2 different 1080i sources). (That's why reviews haven't uncovered it). Changing the B board for one that was fully populated and making the SM changes took care of it. And NO - I didn't notice any "softening" on my 34XBR800 on 1080i component or DVI sources.

Also, I had no problems getting the problem taken care of by a COMPETENT authorized service firm. Sony has acknowledged the problem and communicated (via their authorized service web site) the "fix" and enabled their service organization to take care of it. In my book, they have done everything right and I feel that SONY STILL RULES!!!!!!!!!!

What do you mean "it only showed up on a DVI connection but not on 1080i??

I should have said that on my set it did not show on 1080i via component inputs but did show on 1080i on the DVI input.

Sorry about that!

No problem. Just making sure we're on the same page. I'm not denying there are some that either like the new 1080i or don't see a difference. My problem is when I use DVI it's even worse. What you say about the bar having many manifistations is absolutely true. It's this fact though that makes me think it can be minimized by some action I can take. For instance, if I had your set I would just not use the DVI. Then I would have eliminated it without the patch. Also about sony "ruling". If you read back I've been given several opportunities to badmouth sony sets to someone looking to buy one and I didn't do it. In fact when asked I said"even with the sweeping bar problem sony still produces a great picture" and told them that EVERY set has it's problems and not to avoid sony thinking your avoiding problems. Do they rule? I don't think so. Do they suck? I don't agree with that either. My problem with sony is their secretive attitude about this. I mean, do you know EXACTLY what HDPT is for in the service menu? Before they go changing mine I want to know what their changing.

Chris,

I was prompted to make my recent post by other's comments about reviewers not catching the problem (as if they were on the Sony dole). I was perfectly happy - till I hooked up a 1080i source through the DVI input. I could easily see how this was not picked up by the reviewers.

Regarding Sony being secretive: I don't think that they are anymore secretive than everyone else. I've had (limited) access to the Sony Service Site (ESI) and compared to others I've seen (Panasonic, Pioneer, Hitachi to name a few) they are more thorough about detailing problems and solutions. Granted, they have not explained in detail the complete function of every parameter. That, I believe, is not because of some desire to be secretive - but economic reality. It costs an awful lot of money to fully document everything! And if the set is designed in Japan (I don't know if it is) then translation issues abound. Come to think of it, no matter where the set is designed there are translation issues as the documentation needs to be published in several languages for world wide distribution. They have got to make some sort of judgment as to what information is needed. I would sure love to know what HDPT really does (and YEL as well) - but is there a decent return for them to tell me? I think not.

I didn't ask for a complete description of every parameter. Just ONE. Whether other companies are more or less secretive is of no concern to me as this set is a sony. An awful lot of money to document everything?? I don't think it cost them a lot of money to make a note of why they put HDPT in the service menu. I'll tell ya, your "excuses " about translating the stuff is pretty lame. Going by that reasoning I'm surprised we got the owners manual in english!

Chris,

How would you propose that Sony "inform" people about HDPT? Be realistic now! Should they send a letter to EVERY registered owner? I'll bet that only a small percentage of owners have encountered the problem. And even a smaller percent of owners would understand the answer! The answer likely would be to document the service literature. And if they did that, then they should document EVERY (a couple of thousand in the Sony SM) parameter. Then we have the costs of printing the extra pages it takes, the costs of proof reading, etc. I've been involved in product development - believe me, it ain't cheap!

Regarding being lucky to get an owners manual in English - have you checked the owners manuals for some other "big name" folks - they barely are in English!

I don't see what your getting at. I'm NOT asking sony to inform EVERY owner of the set what HDPT is. JUST the ones who call and ask because of problems. As you said yourself it's a small percentage of owners. So what's the problem? To be honest with you, your freakin me out. What the hell you mean about product development and the cost of printing pages is beyond me. The parameters are in the service menu in english!! I might put more stock in what you are trying to say if you hadn't started out by saying "sony rules". I need the help of people who don't love sony or don't hate sony. I'd be a LOT more open to what you say if you stop the sony cheerleading and just discuss this in a reasonable manner. Think about it. HDPT is being used BY SONY to patch a problem. That means to me that they actually KNOW what HDPT is for without referring to a translation or proofreading anything or printing pages. That has been done by them long ago. If you can't at least admit they know what HDPT is, it tells me your in the business of defending sony rather than helping us with the problem.

Chris,

I see your point about the cheering section. OK

From my experience with this problem HDPT is not the solution. The solution is having a fully populated B board and having the correct HDPT setting (0) to enable the "added" circuitry on the B board. There has been a fair amount of conjecture here about the "softening" effects of the HDPT setting (please note that there are additional settings* associated with this fix). I have not been able to observe this softening on my 34XBR800. Maybe one could see them on a 910 with it's finer aperture grill.

I've jumped into to a defense of Sony because I had no problem getting the problem fixed correctly the first time. And the information provided on this forum certainly helped getting it fixed so quickly.

*SHOF, F1LV, CBOF, CROF, YGN, CBGN and CRGN (in Vivid, Standard and Movie Modes)

Dave,

I agree HDPT is not the solution. Luckily for you the added circuitry ended the bar without softening the picture. But this is where my problem lies. It softened it for me. So the patch is not one that works for me. All I'm trying to get from sony is some kind of list of things that can effect the ability of this bar to become visible during programming. For instance I'm sure you're aware that some had no bar and then switched STB's and boom sweeping bar. Well why can't sony determine why this happens with some STB's and then recommend STB's that minimize the bar rather than enhancing it. I mean the only way for me to know is to go try them all. Another thing I've discussed is that I've had several of these sets the first of which had NO bar visible, ever. But that set came from the factory very dark. The next set came bright as a mother and had the bar. It makes me wonder whether this added brightness is helping enhance the bar. When I say brightness it really seems to be more related to light output than brightness. I don't want sony to replace anything or buy the set back or give my money back or anything. I just want them to put a sony tech on the phone who KNOWS these sets. It's my opinion, and you can tell me what you think, that sony generally sends the sets out of the factory with the service menu parameters set about the same give or take a few notches on any given value. Well, what if my set left the factory with the light output or brightness set too high? Sony could help me verify, with the help of a local tech, that the parameters are where they need to be to do as much possible to minimize the bar. As montreal said earlier, sometimes wires in the set can act like an antenna making the bar worse. Well, why not send a tech out to move these wires and see if it helps? This is what I mean by secretive, they either want to do the HDPT patch or do nothing. Like I've said earlier if they help me and we can't get rid of it without the patch then so be it, they did what they could. All I'm asking is they try a few things before patching the set in a way that makes me even more unhappy.

I don't want to get into the debate about who should do what and why, but just to say that where your Sony includes a fully populated B board , the HDPT change causes the raw 1080i analog signal, be it from components or DVI, to get routed around both the DRC and MID-X circuits including both A/D and D/A converters. The DVI board has its own D/A converter which we need.

The other tweaks are to make sure that the raw 1080i signal has a similar brightness to the other sources (RF,composite,S-Video and 720p) so that when changing inputs there is not a dramatic change in picture intensity.

As for why some owners see a softer picture and others a harder picture with the patch, I suppose it all depends on how you have set up your digital processing. If you have used your user menu (not service menu) to play with the VM, DRC, contrast, etc, then switching back and forth to a raw signal is going to emphasize the difference.

All I can say is that the bypass circuit allows for the cleanest and most uncomplicated path through the TV. It's so short a route, you'll wonder, as I did, why we had to pay for all this stuff that we no longer need. Yes that's the stuff that makes a Sony a Sony, but that stuff is for making NTSC look as close to HD as possible, not really to make HD look better than HD.

Some wonder why there is a HDPT parameter in the first place. My guess is that it is a diagnostic mode to assure a technician that all the non-digital circuits are working fine. Furthermore, the CPU is smart enough not to activate the bypass when the input scan rate is not the same as the native 1080i rate of the CRT. Why some models have a less populated B board (bypass circuit missing) is a mystery to me - the cost of the extra two chips is pennies.

Is the bar really the result of how the HIGHER voltage wires are positioned?

I think it has more to do with how clean your source signal is and how strong it is. The cleaner and weaker it is, the more the bar is going to be noticeable.

I am all set to purchase the 910 but I am not sure I should after reading some of the posts. I have a couple of questions.

1) Does the 910 have the vertical bar problem and if so is it with OTA or in my case comcast digital with hdtv.

2) is there a fix for a novice (i.e. not going into service menu's) or has sony fixed this in newer (manufactured) models.

3) is it really that noticeable on the 910 to warrant not getting this t.v

Originally posted by spider4re
I am all set to purchase the 910 but I am not sure I should after reading some of the posts. I have a couple of questions.

1) Does the 910 have the vertical bar problem and if so is it with OTA or in my case comcast digital with hdtv.

2) is there a fix for a novice (i.e. not going into service menu's) or has Sony fixed this in newer (manufactured) models.

3) is it really that noticeable on the 910 to warrant not getting this t.v

To answer:
1) Some 910s have it, as do some 800s, as do some 510s. (Only with CRTs).

2) No and No.

3) You won't know for sure until you complete your installation. If you have it, eventually there will be enough experts around to patch it for you for a reasonable price. Or you could negotiate the patch into your purchase contract. The 910 will probably be the last and the best of its breed. It would be a shame to pass it up.

For what it's worth, the 910 works beautifully with a Hughes E86 STB if you plan to catch DirecTV and OTA 1080i HD programs. I have examined several 910's at the various CC with many different HD feeds, and still have not seen the vertical bar on any of them.

I agree that some STBs may possibly produce or help make the bar visible on the 910, but if you use the E86 like I do, you should be OK.

I may give that Hughes a try to see what kind of bar I get with it. Any other suggestions on OTA tuners that seem to play well with sony's?

The E86 is also a very sensitive OTA HD tuner if you keep it cool, and never run it w/o an external cooling fan.

My setup is here (http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/nicnguye/lst?.dir=/910+with+DD5.1&.view=t). On top is a Radio Shack 12Vdc duct fan (powered by a 9Vdc transformer), sucking air out of the box, and blowing it out the rear of the cabinet. The glass door keeps the noise down to inaudible level. I only plug in the E86 + fan when I watch TV. At any other time, they are physically disconnected from AC by the power strip mounted above and behind the TV.

Get the E86 from CC. If it doesn't work out, return it. It is a possible easy solution to a nasty problem.

Edit: If you have the vertical bar problem with the 800/510, you'll most likely need the bypass fix. I only recommend the E86 to the 910 people. I strongly feel Sony did somewhat address the bar problem on the 910. The problem may still be with the 910, but it is much less likely to be visible, compared to the 800/510.

The possible easy solution to a nasty problem is what I'm after. I figure the patch is there if I want at any point so why rush and do that before trying everything else. BTW, my sony service tech just called about my other problem, a vertical white "stripe" on the right side of the screen that stays static and is visible on all inputs, even RF. He said sony says they've never had the problem reported, of course. Sony is however sending several circuit boards to be replaced in an attempt to fix it. I'll keep a CLOSE eye on what's done. Before anything is replaced I'm going to make sure of what's being replaced and why and what it might do to the picture I have now. I'm hoping that maybe doing this might somehow affect the sweeping bar as well. I asked and he said the bypass is not on the list of things to do so if it IS affected it won't be because of the bypass.
Montreal, I realize the bar is not a RESULT of wire positioning. But as you said it could contribute to it's being visible during programming. If the stuff that makes a sony a sony is only there to make NTSC look like hd it does a really poor job. You keep saying the bypassed 1080i looks better. I've asked this several times in relation to this and never get a good answer. If it looks better why doesn't sony bypass all their sets and save the money on the processing. It makes absolutely no sense. Do you really believe sony is saying "hey, we could produce a BETTER picture for less money by just piping in a raw 1080i signal but we prefer providing a lesser quality picture that costs us more because of the processing we add". Sony has been making televisions for quite awhile now and I believe if a raw 1080i signal is better, that's what we would be getting on these sets straight from the factory. Couldn't they just add the processing for NTCS and leave the 1080i signal raw??

Shoot, let me try it this way. Sony when they first were developing these sets had to arrive at this point: do we send in a raw 1080i signal that has no sweeping bar or do we process it thereby creating a sweeping vertical bar? Well obviously they went with the latter. WHY??

Why ask why? :)

My best guess-- to simplify the signal handling/processing/up-conversion and keep PQ more uniform on these TVs. DSP just seems to be a necessary evil in Sonys and many other hi-scans to convert 15.75kHz signals to 31.5 or 33.75kHz display. The HD is probably run through the same circuits to keep everything simple/consistent. (I believe features like Twin View and Picture-in-Picture would not be possible w/o the DSP, for example.)

I'm glad there's a way to circumvent it on 1080i though.

For the softer appearance, how about some add'l velocity modulation, or sharpness. FWIW, VM seems to work more effectively on the bypassed 1080i. Also, if you're using Pro mode, the Movie, Standard, and Vivid modes might add a bit more punch back to the bypassed 1080i.

FWIW, after running some experiments my set, I came across a puzzling discovery. After the new B board was installed, the technician left without touching the service menu. I did the HDPT change by myself. Anyway, before changing the setting to 0, I tested the new board by watching HBO HD on my digital cable box through the DVI connection. Sure enough the bar was there. After changing the setting to 0, the bar disappeared. Anyway, I began to miss the sharper, edgier picture, prior to changing the setting to 0. So I checked the original HDPT setting through the component input with my D-VHS while watching my Beauty of Japan HD demo tape. Incredibly, the bar never showed up. I was watching pretty closely too, in a darkened room no less. This means that the new board did eliminate the vertical bar without a patch, but only on the component inputs. Very strange to say the least. For the DVI input, the patch was necessary. This means that I can either watch my HD channels through the component input, or I can leave them on DVI with the patch. Personally I don't wanna put my cable box on component video again, so I'm hoping that my local ISF tech can tweak the "softened HD picture".

Kidpanama, this news gives me hope. Glad to hear your getting somewhere. If I could eliminate it through component I think I could live without DVI. Have you tried HBO HD through component to make sure it's not a compatability issue between the set and the D-VHS player? You know, kinda like some STB's are better than others at hiding the bar. Let me know.
ADU, I've tried all the tweaks the user menu will allow. Nothing seems to deliver the "edgier" picture kidpanama describes. Is it possible that one of the main reasons we have to live with this bar is BECAUSE of twin view and pic in pic? I've always wondered about this. I seem to remember something along these lines much earlier in this thread.

Originally posted by woodrow
If the stuff that makes a sony a sony is only there to make NTSC look like hd it does a really poor job.

You keep saying the bypassed 1080i looks better. I've asked this several times in relation to this and never get a good answer. If it looks better why doesn't sony bypass all their sets and save the money on the processing?

Do you really believe sony is saying "hey, we could produce a BETTER picture for less money by just piping in a raw 1080i signal but we prefer providing a lesser quality picture that costs us more because of the processing we add"?

Couldn't they just add the processing for NTCS and leave the 1080i signal raw??

Chris,

I have analog only cable and the DRC on my 34XBR800 makes the pictures look fantastic.

These sets made by Sony were put on the market in Japan over 3 years before they arrived in North America. I think it's reasonable to assume that even using what they call the Unlocked Signal Processing, due to the different scan frequencies in Japan, they probably never saw the bar.

It took years for the DA-4 chassis to show up here and again more time before we started to combine these sets with a large variety of STBs having different signal strengths and background noise levels. Had Sony locked the signal processing, there was always the risk that the bar, once it stopped scrolling, would end up in the visible raster.

If you're old enough to remember the days of Black and White TV, there were the horizontal and vertical controls knobs that could roll the picture on either axis. There was always a black bar that separated the scrolling images. On these pure analog sets, these bars were always outside the raster when the picture was stable. With digital processing potentially adding delays in horizontal and vertical timing, there was always a strong risk of having both a stationary vertical and possibly a stationary horizontal bar faintly visible at all times. I think Sony made the right choice in unlocking the processing, but they made the wrong choice in choosing a native scan rate so close to the 1080i sync rate. They should have set the DRC clock several kilohertz higher and the bar would have ended up rolling too fast to be noticeable.

We're very fortunate that the bypass circuit results in the bar being frozen outside the visible picture image. But that's just a fluke. That's why Sony would not purposely engineer a 1080i signal to always activate the bypass circuit.

ADU describes best here and elsewhere why he thinks the raw signal looks better. Others disagree. I personally don't have a HD cable or satellite feed so I have no opinion. I once rented an XBOX to test the 1080i functionality.

Note that in bypass mode, twin view is out of the circuit. Once twin view is activated, the patch is temporarily canceled.

I can't readily explain why for some DVI has a bar in 1080i and components does not have it in 1080i. I can only assume that the DVI signal has a lower noise floor than the components signal and that the bar is masked by the higher video noise in components mode.

Originally posted by woodrow
Is it possible that one of the main reasons we have to live with this bar is BECAUSE of twin view and pic in pic? I've always wondered about this. I seem to remember something along these lines much earlier in this thread. It's probably just easier for the TVs to manipulate the picture after it's transformed to digital. And running the 1080i through the same DSP by default may save the trouble of configuring the TVs for both transformed and non-transformed signals.

Much of the "Sony look" in recent TVs seems to come from the DSP. If you're a fan of this, then you may want to dispense with the bypass and try some of the other methods suggested here for reducing the bars like boosting signal strength, trying a different STB or using component instead of DVI for 1080i, etc. Insuring that you have solid black levels may help as well.

There may be some (analog?) controls that can be used to tweak the bypassed 1080i more in the service menu, like the ones mentioned earlier in the thread from the service bulletin. But without the DSP, it may be difficult to get an exact match to the other transformed signals.

Montreal, ADU,

As always, good info.

Got another question. Montreal mentioned the scan rate being so close to the 1080i sync rate. Would it be possible in theory for sony to design an STB that would solve this? I mean, if some stb's do better with the bar I'd think they could make one that all but made it invisible. Am I wrong in this thinking?

Originally posted by woodrow
Kidpanama, this news gives me hope. Glad to hear your getting somewhere. If I could eliminate it through component I think I could live without DVI. Have you tried HBO HD through component to make sure it's not a compatability issue between the set and the D-VHS player? You know, kinda like some STB's are better than others at hiding the bar. Let me know.
ADU, I've tried all the tweaks the user menu will allow. Nothing seems to deliver the "edgier" picture kidpanama describes. Is it possible that one of the main reasons we have to live with this bar is BECAUSE of twin view and pic in pic? I've always wondered about this. I seem to remember something along these lines much earlier in this thread.


Ok Woodrow, I played around with the settings and can confirm that with the new board, the vertical bar isn't noticeable on component video, just DVI. This is a pain, as I'm not willing to go back to component video because all my component inputs are occupied. I guess the new board was tweaked at Sony to make the bar damn near invisible. Sticking with component video may be a better solution for most people as it delivers the brighter and sharper picture without the severe vertical bar distractions.

Montreal,

Great informative and knowledgeable posts! Being a Broadcast engineer myself, I have been inside many monitors. Mainly NTSC up to this point.

From what I've read about the problem, the only thing that would account for why the problem is worse in some sets than others (besides the version of B board present, and the menu settings, etc.) would be shielding and "lead dress" of the inputs. As you have mentioned, the position of the HV lead and any of the sweep circuit (300V-450V) leads would cause crosstalk into the sensitive and lower signal path input boards, etc. Somewhat random lead dress could account for this??? Since the bar is down in the noise floor, it sounds like Sony needs to do a little bit better job in shielding the sensitive components. Of course that is why they charge $15K for a professional 20" rack mount HD 16X9 monitor.

I am having HD cable installed this Thursday, and do NOT want to even look for this demon! I purchased my 40XBR800 in July of 2003, who knows what version of board it has, or if I'll have the problem. I do keep my blacks buried fairly deep, as I like a high contrast picture that a CRT can deliver, so hopefully I won't notice it with my viewing preferences.

My fingers are crossed... Keep the good info coming!

Southbound,

Please keep us posted on your results w/the 40XBR. I've owned this TV for almost a year and have not experienced the verticle bar problem w/component inputs, or any other problems for that matter. I've yet to try DVI, and curious if this is where the demon line might appear.

Thanks KidPanama. Maybe I'll get lucky and get one of the "tweaked" boards. Sorry to hear about your input situation. I know what you mean, one more component input on these sets would have been a whole lot more convenient. I'll post back here after the tech comes and replaces my boards. Still waiting for the delivery of the boards from sony.

Update. Two boards were replaced. One board was defective and didn't work. The other didn't help the stripe problem I have. So the tech is going to send for more boards. We'll try again and I'll post back. BTW, nothing done today had any effect on the sweeping bar either. Original boards were put back. I'll keep trying until I or this set dies.

Woodrow,

I feel your pain. I purchased a 40XBR800 in early August 2003 (build date, June 2003). So far I have had NO problems whatsoever with the set. NO green blobs, NO geometry problems, just GREAT pictures for this big of a tube.

However, I just had HDTV cable installed last week. COX cable with the new Motorola 6200 Set Top Box. The HD looks GREAT! The SD which comes out of the same component connections from the cable STB also look better than my comparable DirecTV SD channels. I was comparing the SD pix coming from the same HBO movies being fed from my new COX BOX and my DirecTV receiver. The compression artifacts are definitely WORSE from the DirecTV sources. I am only keeping the DirecTV dish for the NFL Sunday ticket, although I can hardly stand the quality of the feeds when viewed on the giant 4:3 40 inch screen at 8-10 feet away. But I just canceled my HBO, etc. from DirecTV and now get them through the digital cable box. I now get more channels and the addition of Showtime, TMC, Encore along with the HD channels from HBO (1 HD, 12 SD) Showtime (1 HD, 12 SD) CBS, NBC, ABC for less than I was paying for just the HBO package from the DirecTV service.

Anyway, I digress, but I wanted to let some of you know that I feel it is worth checking into digital cable these days over the satellite services, depending upon your cable company offerings, of course.

Back to the point. I probably would NOT have noticed the Vertical sweeping bar issue, if I had not read so much about it on this site. But since I knew about it, of course I had to check for it. In MY case, YES THE DAMN BAR IS STILL THERE! It sweeps across my screen from right to left about every 1-2 seconds. Whether it sweeps from left to right, or right to left would depend upon whether the "free-running" oscillator clock in the TV set is a couple of hertz slower or faster than the signal coming from the broadcast station. Most of the DTV stations now lock their transmitter exciters to GPS clocks to keep them within +/- 3Hz of the designated carrier. This is required in highly populated areas such as L.A. in order to keep taboo interference issues in check due to the large number of both analog and DTV broadcast stations.

Anyway, I can definitely see the vertical bar whenever I turn the brightness (black level) WAY up and feed the TV a black signal from the 1080i cable STB. I use the component inputs on my 40XBR800 for this. There is a DVI connection on the new Motorola 6200 STB, but it is not yet enabled. SO, my HDTV 1080i component inputs do exhibit the vertical bar problem, but so far, ONLY when I have the brightness WAY up. I keep my blacks black, (the brightness control set right at midrange) and it is not a perceptible problem in that case. I have NEVER been able to see it so pronounced that it affects the flesh tones of people, etc. as I have read reported here by some unfortunate owners. I HAVE seen it BRIEFLY a couple of times when shows fade to black for more than a few seconds, but not during normal programming. OF COURSE, I'm now watching for it out of the corner of my eye instead of enjoying the program content. Every time there is any kind of pulsation, my gut ties up in knots, until I realize that it is part of the program.

In my case it is low enough in the noise floor to where I could easily understand where SONY would be reluctant to acknowledge the problem or not even expect the average viewer to notice it. That is still WRONG! It is a problem, but probably not for the vast majority of viewers/owners. I am a PICKY viewer, and would have EVENTUALLY noticed it during black dissolves, but would I have complained? I don't know.... I still don't know if it's a big enough issue for me to complain, because MOST TV techs are complete jokers, and have NO clue as to what they are really doing. I have always fixed every TV set that I have ever owned by myself and NEVER purchase the extended warranty. (It helps to be a broadcast engineer). I did make the mistake about 5 years ago when I purchased my Panasonic GAOO tube set and added the warranty because I thought it would be nice not to have to hassle the work myself for once. After 1 year, the set developed a major problem and would not lock to any signal and had major sweep deflection problems. CIRCUIT CITY TECHS WERE COMPLETE IDIOTS!!! After two visits and two orders of the INCORRECT part, I got sick of things, bought the service manual, brought my scope home from work, diagnosed the problem, ordered the new chip for $25 bucks and fixed it myself. 3 months later they finally got around to coming back and I told them to forget about it, I had taken care of the problem on my own. The frustration of the pace at which these Techs "shotgun" parts and "guess" at things is just like the mechanics that screw up your car! NOBODY takes the back of this set off except me! If it ever needs a new tube, I might then let somebody mess with it, but I'd probably just junk the set at that point. So you are really at the mercy of the "luck of the draw" when it comes to service techs. There ARE some good ones out there, but they are far and few in between. I highly doubt that any of the Circuit City type techs are going to be any more knowledgeable than the authorized Sony service center types. The KEY thing to make sure of is that YOU have to be there when they are. YOU are the one who needs to be satisfied. They will ALWAYS make excuses, and hide things from someone who lets them work alone unattended! Make sure you are there and don't be afraid to ask POLITE questions. You have to play the game of kissing their a$$, but if you do it in the right way, you can stroke their ego and get them to spend the extra time to do things right. At least you can get them to allow you to TEST their fix and look for other problems that they might have caused in the process. It's luck of the draw, but you can tell a goober from a "hot" tech right off the bat. If you've got a goober, then don't let him destroy your set on a wild goose chase (unless you're going after the third strike lemon new TV routine) Let him/her fumble and point out that the problem still hasn't really been fixed and/or whatever new problem has been created in the process. Then, count your losses and call a new shop. Eventually, you will get someone who actually knows something, and actually cares about your plight after he has heard your saga.

Sorry I've rambled again... I did try the Service Menu fix posted here, and found that if I did change the HDPT setting from 1 to 0 that the Vertical bar problem went away. HOWEVER, the picture detail also suffered enough to really bother me. I tried the other menu changes, but did not notice any of them bringing back the detail The pix just looks SOFT after changing HDPT from 1 to 0. WTF? So the trade-off is to have a softer picture than the set is capable of producing, or put up with the sweeping bar... And that's assuming you have one of the sets with the proper board to allow the HDPT menu change take effect. It really doesn't sound very likely to me that SONY would have the number of DEFECTIVE boards that I hear reported on this site! There may be WRONG boards out there, but there's really not that much to break on them that would make them truly defective. Most likely the goober techs are scrounging other replaced bad boards and calling them new in hopes of a fix. Either that, or SONY has so many variations of the board that it takes a certain combination of other boards to work properly with any given B board??? And it's trial and error until they get one that will switch properly with the HDPT menu fix#$%^&*(

I also tried the method of setting my STB to output 720p signals. THE VERTICAL BAR IS STILL PRESENT under those conditions as well. The bar is just about half as bright and moves ever so slightly faster. It buries the problem deeper in the mud, but it's still there. The only fix that TOTALLY cures the BAR PROBLEM is the HDPT menu fix. This would of course make sense, since the internal clock now locks to the incoming video. However the BYPASS of the other circuitry definitely made my pix enough softer to be more objectionable than the sweeping bar that I only see during extended COMPLETELY black scenes. I also noticed that the problem only occurs when the Y (luminance) cable is connected to the input of the TV. This of course also makes sense, since that is the input that brings the incoming sync. The sweeping bar is also "white" (luminance) in nature, only a few IRE above whatever the rest of the video black level is.

I know that I haven't helped anybody here, but just wanted to pass on my observations. Many thanks to those who have posted the HDPT menu fix. It DOES work in my set, so if the level of the bar becomes more objectionable over time, I may have to resort to that fix. Meanwhile, I can't help but wonder if there is a way to better shield the "Y" COMPONENT INPUT from the free running internal clock interference? The bar is equally apparent on either input 5 or input 6.... so it may be a problem with the circuit board layout as opposed to lead dress/proximity issues. But lead dress would account for why it is more of a problem with some sets than others. Either that, or a lot of people are watching their video with the brightness up way too high and producing milky blacks.

I find that this set does NOT hold black at black as APL changes. Therefore, the Video essentials DVD is fairly useless in my opinion. If you set things up according to their method, you will be looking at milky blacks, low chroma and incorrect color phase. The matrix color decoder in these sets does tend to push the reds. Yet the DVE disc tells you to ignore flesh tones and set things up totally by the "blue gun" method. The problem with that is that it doesn't correct for the imperfections in the chroma decoder. The DVE disc tells you that there is "nothing more you can do at that point", but to live with the results. While that is correct, would you rather watch people with purple or green faces just to have the correct color of a building or car when you really have no reference idea as to what the correct color really should be? Would you really rather watch milky programs just to have the pluge pattern look correct on ONE test signal? Makes NO sense to me. The video set up DVDs are GREAT for tweaking geometry and convergence, linearity, width, height, etc. Also GREAT for shading color balance of the decoder especially in the gammas. These are service mode adjustments, and should only be adjusted by experienced persons. As for setting up the USER controls... GIVE ME A BREAK! The DVDs come off condescending and will only make you aware of the deficiencies in your set. These are CONSUMER sets, and they will have these errors when compared to broadcast quality professional CRT monitors ($15K for a 20" tube) SO... adjust the user settings to your personal liking, these sets can be made to look REALLY nice. Adjusting the service mode "red push" and color balance of the grayscale can do wonders to correct for the improperly designed "signature" chroma matrix. Most people do tend to crank the chroma and sharpness up too high, but if that's how they like it... they are the user! Use the convergence and grayscale patterns to verify your set. If things are significantly off, have someone experienced use the service level test patterns to improve your convergence, geometry and color balance. That is what the DVDs should really be used for. Other than that, you will just feel cheated by the "user" setup results and wonder if you should re-tweak things to your better liking. The answer is YES! Don't let the guy on the DVD tell you what you like to see, and that compromise is out of the question. Compromise is what a consumer set is ALWAYS about! That doesn't make them bad, it's just a fact.

Sorry for the long rant... Good luck out there to everybody and thanks for the great forum!

While I won't lie to you Southbound, Woodrow and I complained about the lack of an absolute fix for the vertical bar problem, I am getting used to the softer picture provided by the HDPT fix. Do I consider this an absolute fix? NO. Because a fix to me would mean complete elimination of the vertical bar, while maintaining the picture quality of the set. Anyway, with that said, the better HD broadcasts still look great, and shine right through the "fix". The reason I deal with it, because there is no true fix yet. I would also like to thank you for the detailed information you provided in your post. A good thread never dies:)

Originally posted by Southbound

I also tried the method of setting my STB to output 720p signals. THE VERTICAL BAR IS STILL PRESENT under those conditions as well. The bar is just about half as bright and moves ever so slightly faster. It buries the problem deeper in the mud, but it's still there. The only fix that TOTALLY cures the BAR PROBLEM is the HDPT menu fix. This would of course make sense, since the internal clock now locks to the incoming video. However the BYPASS of the other circuitry definitely made my pix enough softer to be more objectionable than the sweeping bar that I only see during extended COMPLETELY black scenes.

Southbound,

You should not be seeing the vertical bar when the input signal is 720p because the native 1080i scan rate is about 33.75 kHz and the 720p signal is about 45 kHz. so the difference of 11.25 kHz means that the vertical bar would be sweeping across your screen over 11000 times a second. The faster you sweep it, the more the bar's image is spread thinly over the surface of the screen.

Your eyes can't see anything moving that fast.

I would be looking for another source of a 45kHz signal that could be superimposing itself on top of your 720p signal.

Is there a OTA transmitter nearby broadcasting a 720p signal which has some part of its carrier being modulated at 45kHz or a harmonic of it?

Or is there a leakage within your STB that is contaminating your 720p analog signal before it exits the STB?

Another thing to note is that when the bypass HDPT is activated, the internal DRC clock continues to run at the slightly out of sync frequency, and the output of the DRC still has the scrolling bar embedded in the image, but the CRT drive circuit no longer receives this contaminated signal, rather it switches over to the raw analog signal coming directly from VIDEO 5,6, or 7(DVI).

This bypass is only allowed to take place when the input is 1080i. The processor will never permit a raw analog 720p signal to get switched directly to the CRT drive, because the drive circuit is not designed to scan at the necessary 45 kHZ rate.

Hey guys, I forgot to mention earlier that when the tech had the back of the set off he pointed out the high voltage wire for me and I moved it about 50% to the right. I wasn't able to change the appearance of the sweeping bar, though it was worth a shot anyway.

Hey Monty,
Thanks for the input. I hear what you're saying with respect to the 720p horizontal scan rate vs. 1080i. The fact that I'm still seeing the sweeping bar when I change the output of the CABLE STB to 720p means that I'm NOT actually viewing 720p. As you suggest, either the STB coming from the cable company has everything upconverted to 1080i or it only truly puts out a 720p signal from a 720p source, i.e. Fox or ABC. FOX is NOT supplied by my cable company yet in HD and I may not have been tuned to ABC when I did the test.

Then again, the 40XBR800 states that it "accepts" 720p signals but UPCONVERTS them to 1080i. So I would expect the scan rate to be rescaled to the 33khz range in either case. I CANNOT receive ANY over the air broadcast signals where I live. I am down in some hills and then in a ravine that doesn't let anything through except DIRECTV or now my COX cable HDTV STB.

In any case, I am typically a REAL anal person when it comes to imperfections. My car has to run just right and my A/V gear must be sweet. HOWEVER, I am doing my very best to try and let this dog lie still. So far, it has NOT been prominent enough to affect my normal viewing. I only see the anomaly when a show fades to black BEFORE the credits roll and push the blacks back down below cutoff. It still sucks! but I'm trying to ignore/live with it. The leap to HDTV has been pleasing enough to not allow this distraction to truly annoy me (YET!)

With 18 formats and every station still struggling with the setup of their encoder/mux/PSIP issues, it's lucky the technology works at all. What drives me nuts is how a lot of stores and viewers with 16:9 sets STRETCH the video to fill the screen even though it distorts the image and displays normal people as short fat people!

Thanks for the info and the continued help with this issue. Sooner or later, the next generation of sets may actually know how to deal with all of the variables. At least my set apparently has the correct board that allows me to incorporate the HDPT menu fix. That is a blessing. I guess I should buy a service manual to see what is really going on. If anybody reading this has a manual.... Does it have GOOD block diagrams along with circuit descriptions, etc. Then also component level schematics as well?

GOOD LUCK woodrow! You have been dealing with this for waaaaay too long.

thanks Southbound.

Originally posted by Southbound
Then again, the 40XBR800 states that it "accepts" 720p signals but UPCONVERTS them to 1080i. So I would expect the scan rate to be rescaled to the 33khz range in either case.......

......Does it have GOOD block diagrams along with circuit descriptions, etc. Then also component level schematics as well?


Southbound,

In the XBR800/910, the UPCONVERTION of 720p to 1080i takes place in the digital domain where it is immune from analog interference, so the scrolling 720p bar must be happening before the TV.

The only way a STB could create the same scrolling bar at 720p within its chassis would be for the STB to receive a digital signal from satellite or cable in 720p, convert it to analog, then convert back to digital for potential rescaling, then convert back to 720p analog for output in components using a unlocked internal clock running slightly faster or slower than the sync rate of the original digital signal. If the output analog sync pulses were to somehow get radiated back into the input analog luma path, then you would have the scrolling bar. The same STB could likewise create a scrolling bar if the input digital signal and the output analog signal are both at 1080i. The reason that the TV is suspected more often than the STB of radiating out of frequency analog signals back into itself, is that the TV has the analog signals in some places moving around at much higher voltages.

All this raises the question as to why the STB would convert the original digital signal from the cable or satellite to analog and then back to digital. The answer may be that just like the SONY TV, there is a need to get all the signals coming into the STB (digital, analog composite,components,S-video,etc) to the lowest common denominator being analog RGB, then making the selection in analog and then feeding the selected analog RGB signal into the digital processor for rescaling before converting back to analog components for output. Whenever the signal travels in its analog form, it is vulnerable to interference.

The Sony service manual for the DA-4 chassis allows you to trace all signals across a series of boards at the transistor/IC level. You can easily see which chips are doing what. The block diagrams could be more detailed. I consider this to be a good investment for anyone handy with a miniature soldering iron.

Montreal,

This is a little off topic, but another Forum member is having trouble w/green blotches in the corner of his 40XBR800. He's had trouble getting this problem to disappear. I too own the 40"er but have no answer for him. I thought possibly a magnetic field problem, but that's just a wild guess. I would appreciate any help you could provide. Thanks.

It sound alot like magnetic interference, maybe he'd find some ideas here: TV and Monitor CRT (Picture Tube) Information (http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/crtfaq.htm)

Originally posted by Southbound
I hear what you're saying with respect to the 720p horizontal scan rate vs. 1080i. The fact that I'm still seeing the sweeping bar when I change the output of the CABLE STB to 720p means that I'm NOT actually viewing 720p. As you suggest, either the STB coming from the cable company has everything upconverted to 1080i or it only truly puts out a 720p signal from a 720p source, i.e. Fox or ABC. FOX is NOT supplied by my cable company yet in HD and I may not have been tuned to ABC when I did the test. Maybe the STB is upconverting 720p and only outputting 1080i? FWIW, the service menu on the TV can tell you whether the signal being received is 720p or 1080i.

Yeah, the menu mode in the 40XBR800 says that the input is 1080i even when I had the CABLE STB set to output 720p signals. The COX cable system takes the OTA signal via 8VSB and then converts it to 64 or 256QAM for modulation along their cable trunks. Who knows what they do in between? It's really a moot point, because I was just playing around with the box options when I set it to output 720p signals. Don't ask me why, I was just experimenting... In any case, the TV still said it was receiving 1080i signals which explains the fact that the vertical bar was still present. HOWEVER, the intensity of the bar DID seem to change a bit lower in amplitude when I kept switching the STB mode back and forth from 1080i to 720p... so something was changing, but who knows what...

As far as GREEN BLOB purity problems...

There is really only 3 things that can tend to cause purity problems, no matter what the color.

1. Stray magnetic fields around the TV set that were not present during its factory adjustments. These fields can be caused by external speakers, power line wiring/current within the walls, heavy iron or otherwise ferrite beams in the wall, floor or ceiling of the TV's location, or even the earth's magnetic field itself. The stray magnetic field (or in the case of large iron/steel objects nearby) the interruption of the normal magnetic field created by the TV's deflection yoke will cause the CRT's electron beam to deviate from its intended path and hit the Shadow mask or aperture grill in the wrong place. When the electron beam misses its intended target it will fall upon the WRONG color of phosphor on the inside of the tube. This will cause areas of color impurity, aka GREEN BLOBS.

2. Misalignment of the deflection yoke on the neck of the CRT will also affect where the electron beam hits its target. If the yoke moves (even slightly, such as in shipping or carrying a 300lb tube up flights of stairs, etc.) inward or outward, the beam will again hit the wrong spot on the shadow mask or aperture grill. The effect will again be an area of color impurity due to the beam hitting the wrong colored phosphors in certain areas. If the yoke slips inward or outward it may also rotate a bit as well. In that case the entire picture will be tilted. If anyone has a severely tilted picture (where correction of more than +/- 3 or 4 user setting adjustments are required) ALONG with a purity problem, then you might suspect that the yoke has possibly been moved. The yokes should be securely fastened from the factory, but you know how that goes... Drift of the electrical convergence components within the set over time can also cause color impurities, but these would typically be accompanied by convergence errors as well as the "color blob" problem. Also, this sort of drift would be expected to only occur after YEARS of service.

3. A WARPED shadow mask or aperture grill will DEFINITELY cause a color impurity problem If the mask becomes warped, typically due to heat from prolonged high level WHITE picture content, (or extended general use) then the electron beam will again hit the wrong phosphors on the inside of the tube. Since the holes or slits in the shadow mask/aperture grill have now mechanically moved from where they belong, the beam will go through the wrong slit and hit the wrong colored phosphor. This type of problem can sometimes manifest itself as an OK picture when the tube is cold, and then slowly develop after the set has warmed up for a few hours. If the impurity problem comes and goes with the length of time that the set has been turned on, then DEFINITELY suspect this as the potential culprit. THERE IS NO FIX for a warped mask or grill... THE CRT WILL NEED TO BE REPLACED. The larger the tube, the more likely that this warping may actually occur. It's very rare in sets 27" and smaller, but fairly common in 36" and larger CRTs. DO NOT LET YOUR TV PARK WITH FULL FIELD WHITE SIGNALS!!!!! Turn the contrast (picture) way down if you are going to be on a solid white signal for any length of time. It only takes a FEW MINUTES under certain conditions to heat up and warp the mask, causing permanent damage. Even the DVE setup disc warns you of this precaution. Sometimes the "dent" in the tube's mask or grill will "pop" back and forth from normal to bad mode as the heat in the set changes. If you see this occur, then you're most likely looking at a new tube at that point.

The bigger the tube, the bigger the problems. Analog snow and digital artifacts are much more apparent on the larger screen, and the larger screen is also more susceptible to external magnetic fields, etc. It's also more difficult to maintain proper convergence and more susceptible to warping of the gigantic (yet must remain precise) mask or grill. BUT WHEN ALL IS WORKING PROPERLY, IT PROVIDES A MUCH MORE SATISFYING AND EXCITING VIEWING EXPERIENCE!!! If you look closely at the 40XBR800 you will see that the trinitron stripes are WIDER apart at the sides of the screen than in the middle. That's because it's much harder to focus the beam on a tight spot when the light is coming in from an angle. Just try to keep a tight ROUND spot on the wall as you pan a flashlight back and forth across it. That's why the neck of precision scope tubes, etc. are so deep. The deeper the tube, the lesser the angle of the sweep. BUT NO ONE wants a tube that's 10 feet deep.... In practice, the designers have done amazing work with the accuracy of modern CRTs. ESPECIALLY THE 34XBR910. But the 40"er and the 34" 16:9 CRT are pushing the limits of modern technology. The next generation of PREFERRED displays is yet to be determined... but it's coming, and it will provide much LARGER displays than the beloved picture tube.

Stray magnetic field issues should change the purity problem either in color or size when magnetic sources around the tube are moved, or when the set itself is moved. If you CANNOT see any change in the "blob" as you move things around, then suspect one of the other more serious causes. The most OBVIOUS effect of a misaligned yoke, is purity problems with full field RED signals. If you see GREEN BLOBS on RED backgrounds, the yoke could be the cause, especially if convergence is also significantly off at the outer edges of the screen. If you can correlate the purity problem to temperature changes... then suspect a damaged shadow mask or aperture grill. (Bad CRT)

Of course NO TWO problems of this nature are the same... so Internet troubleshooting is NOT an exact science. I'm just throwing some typical causes out there in hopes of helping someone...

GOOD LUCK, ALL!

Southbound,

Thanks for your detailed response regarding the dreaded Green Blob. That was exactly what I was looking for. A few more questions, if I may?

The green blob that appears on my set is intermittent. It is in the lower left/upper right sides and lasts for about ten seconds before subsiding. My only thought is that it may POSSIBLY be the subway which runs under my building. That would explain the intermittent/ten second aspect of it, but why did it begin to appear about two months after I purchased the set? Also, I'm on the SIXTH floor....isn't that a bit of a stretch? Any thoughts?

I have this problem on my XBR800 as well. Please post Sony's fix for this.

I have this problem as well. please let us know what Sony says.
Thanks

The verticle line problem I guess is unique to LG based Sat Revceivers and the Sony 800 series XBR's. I have a Moto 5100 also hooked to my 40" XBR and there IS NO EVIDENCE of the vertical bar, and any HDTV broadcasts that I have found. Is this true? So if you want to get rid of the bar....but a Moto box!!

Look again...

I have a 40XBR800 purchased this past August 2003 (build date, June 2003). I recently had COX cable installed and they now supply the latest generation of Cable STBs. I have the Motorola 6200/1000 which replaces the older Moto 5100. I CAN SEE THE VERTICAL BAR PROBLEM WITH THIS STB ON 1080i SIGNALS!

The amplitude of the bar is fairly subdued so as NOT to be a problem with NORMAL picture content. HOWEVER, it is noticeable during long fades to black (if you look close enough). I am lucky in that my 40XBR800 does have the correct B board that allows me to perform the HDPT menu fix. When I change the HDPT setting from 1 to 0 the bar DOES go away. The picture also softens a bit, so I haven't kept things with that setting. I am viewing my TV with the vertical bar, but don't find it problematic enough to cause me serious concern. Whew!!! I do keep my blacks pretty dark, and that also helps to disguise the problem.

Watch something in 1080i on the Moto 5100 and then turn the STB off. The box will then output video black (at least the Moto 6200/1000 does) Turn the BRIGHTNESS UP on your 40XBR and I'll bet that you see the problem. I am using COMPONENT cables, and the problem is the same whether I use input 5 or 6. I haven't tried the DVI input yet, because I'm not sure if the new box has that function enabled, and the cables are expensive. If anybody out there has the NEW MOTOROLA 6200/1000 CABLE STB, I would be grateful for any info you may have as to whether or not the DVI output is enabled. I suppose that could vary from one Cable company to another. It would be interesting to know if the level of the problem is down from what you had been seeing from your SAT box??? I don't quite understand why the problem would vary much from TV to TV... My TV exhibits the problem, but at a level far enough down to not be a real problem. Let us know if things really are truly FIXED or just further down in the black noise floor.

But I almost hate telling you this... My advice to most people is "If you don't see it, Don't look for it!" It will only haunt you after you once find it...

P.S. I also have DIRECTV (SD signals only) but find the SD signals from the Cable STB to be superior with respect to video compression artifacts. When blown up to the big 40 inch screen at 8-10 feet away, I can hardly stand to watch DirecTV anymore for those reasons. I believe they compress most of their SD feeds down to around 3Mbs. That sucks! IMHO, I find the analog cable noise less objectionable.

Good luck!

I don't see it with the Moto 5100 box???:D

Jeff,
Good for you! Perhaps I should ask my Cable company to trade me one of their older boxes? Have you performed the HDPT menu fix, or is the service menu stock? Also, I assume that you are using the component inputs, and that you have cranked up the brightness and looked very carefully with 1080i input signals during black scenes?

If your problem is truly solved, then you are indeed one of the few LUCKY ones! Enjoy!

Have Cox cable with the new Moto 6200 using component. No vertical bar problem. My tv xbr800 was mfg. in Dec. 2003 which is suppose to be the one missing the B board components.

Sorry

Raz,
Since you also have the Moto 6200 cable STB AND Cox, do you know if the DVI output is enabled? I'm not sure if it is or not... If it is, I'd like to give it a try just to see how things look through that interface. If not, I don't want to spend $100 bucks on a DVI cable just to find out that the output is NOT enabled.

Thanks!

Souchbound,

You shouldn't have to spend $100 to check out the DVI connection. Here is a good cable for $18 (plus shipping).

http://www.pacificcable.com/Picture_Page.asp?DataName=DVIDL-2

Thanks Dave!
SB

Swisher and JEFFDUBE,

I live above a subway (3rd floor) and have the same problem. Any solutions? I've started a new post here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=340241.

In the two days I have had my 34XBR910 the only thing I have noticed is a slight geometry problem when viewing programming that has vertical bars. The upper 1.5" or so of the left bar is slanted a little to the left. I'm sure it's nothing a professional calibration can't fix.

Originally posted by davehancock
Souchbound,

You shouldn't have to spend $100 to check out the DVI connection. Here is a good cable for $18 (plus shipping).

http://www.pacificcable.com/Picture_Page.asp?DataName=DVIDL-2

I bought one off of eBay for only $5 (+ $5 for shipping). I can't comment on the quality as I haven't received it yet.

Sounds like we have ourselves a potential manufacter's defect here friends.

I'd call Sony myself. I hope the XBR 910 doesn't have this sort of issue...