Los Angeles, CA - OTA [Text View] - Page 12

fareal

05-06-07, 11:51 AM

Hello L.A. OTA users. I'm attempting to join you all with my newly purchased TiVo S3 and OTA antenna. I've decided to try and do without TWC since 90% or more of what I record/watch is broadcast OTA for free. And with the sale that recently ended, the $499 TiVo S3, I figured it was a good time to try and make the switch. I'm about 16 miles slightly south and east of Mt Wilson. I've had this Silver Sensor antenna for a while now but never really made much use of it since I was using TWC for my HD TV. But since this change I've moved my Silver Sensor up to the attic and the reception is much much better. I think I've finally positioned it so I get everything I want too. It was difficult because I when I would get a good 90% reception on 28.1 then 4.1 seemed to drop down to the low 70 to high 60% and I'd frequently see blocks and loss of audio. Vice versa when I got 4.1 up into the 90%. Not sure if it is coincidence but with this last positioning I tilted the Silver Sensor slightly backwards (so the front is very slightly tilted upwards) and now everything is stable for the moment. Hopefully it continues.

I've read that a more directional antenna would probably help and I was considering the Channel Master 4220 (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4220.htm) if I couldn't get my Silver Sensor to where I wanted. Then I also read that in 2009 a few L.A. channels will be moving to VHF. And that is where I left off in my reading. I'm not sure what my options are for UHF and VHF. Do I combine two antennas? Will a rabbit ear VHF antenna work for my location or will I have to get a larger VHF antenna? It seems that the VHF antennas are larger than the UHF.

gohd

05-06-07, 06:38 PM

alaskaman1666

05-06-07, 08:09 PM

Please recommend antenna for friend in Quail Hill area of Irvine. Needs only for Ch5 and Ch9 to receive HD broadcasts on an D* HR10-250. Antennaweb.org lists both channels as from Los Angeles, 44 mi out, recommending a "small multidirectional". Please recommend an antenna, hopefully not too large/imposing (preferably indoor if remotely possible), as I don't know what requirements the homeowners association has.
Take a look at the Channel Master 4221 and the Antennas Direct DB-4
Available from Solidsignal website.

RudyG

05-07-07, 03:18 AM

Take a look at the Channel Master 4221 and the Antennas Direct DB-4
Available from Solidsignal website.

<sarcasm>
Erecting an outdoor antenna in Orange County will get you a life sentence or an execution. :O
This is only partially exaggerated.
</sarcasm>
For an indoor antenna a Zenith ZHDTV1 is probably the best you can get.

Rudy

gohd

05-07-07, 12:02 PM

Thanks for the responses. Will look into these recommendations.

I was thinking, if he really only needs 2 channels, and they're both at MtWilson can he just use a "directional" (like a yagi) rather than a "multidirectional" one? Or, am I thinking about this wrong?

kepper

05-07-07, 01:56 PM

Please recommend antenna for friend in Quail Hill area of Irvine. Needs only for Ch5 and Ch9 to receive HD broadcasts on an D* HR10-250. Antennaweb.org lists both channels as from Los Angeles, 44 mi out, recommending a "small multidirectional". Please recommend an antenna, hopefully not too large/imposing (preferably indoor if remotely possible), as I don't know what requirements the homeowners association has.

I live in Newport Beach, and get excellent results with the Winegard SquareShooter II. Because of the size of the antenna, I was able to mount it on the side of the house in an area that can't be seen from the street.

Oppo_Man

05-08-07, 11:17 PM

alaskaman1666

05-09-07, 03:33 AM

Hey guys,

... I bought a Samsung DTBH260F over-the-air tuner and a Philips Silver Sensor Indoor HDTV Antenna. Both work fantastic with my Sony KV-HS310 34" monitor. For the price range of the equipment, I am very happy.

I was able to get everything hooked up correctly and let the tuner do the automatic channel programming. I am able to receive channels 2, 4, 5, 7, 9 (in addition to a lot of public access channels ie. KCET, KOCE, etc.) however, I cannot get FOX KTTV 11 or KCOP 13. I am in La Crescenta right below Foothill Blvd. Anyone else in this area able to receive these stations? Any suggestions? Thanks!
You may be so close to Mt. Wilson that you may be shadowed from receiving some of those signals.
Try an outside UHF antenna. (Channel Master/AntennasDirect/RadioShack Yagi or Bow Tie)
Try different areas outside as high as possible.
Go to AntennaWeb.ORG website and enter your address for receive signal analysis. (Fox 11 DTV is listed as weaker than the others)

andy.s.lee

05-09-07, 04:17 AM

Hey guys,

I am brand new to the world of HD TV and my only regret is not getting it sooner! The funniest thing is that I am not a sports fan at all, however, I found myself watching golf, and a basketball game (to my wife's dismay) this past weekend because the picture was amazing. I bought a Samsung DTBH260F over-the-air tuner and a Philips Silver Sensor Indoor HDTV Antenna. Both work fantastic with my Sony KV-HS310 34" monitor. For the price range of the equipment, I am very happy.

I was able to get everything hooked up correctly and let the tuner do the automatic channel programming. I am able to receive channels 2, 4, 5, 7, 9 (in addition to a lot of public access channels ie. KCET, KOCE, etc.) however, I cannot get FOX KTTV 11 or KCOP 13. I am in La Crescenta right below Foothill Blvd. Anyone else in this area able to receive these stations? Any suggestions? Thanks!
I think you're dealing with terrain blockage of KTTV and KCOP. These channels are on a slighly shorter tower compared to the rest of the channels on Mt. Wilson. Since the transmitters are not as high, you're probably falling deeper into the shadows caused by the mountains. Transmitters like KCBS are much taller and can reach into the valley a little better. The attached image shows the difference between the KCBS and KTTV coverage maps. The color coding is as follows:

- White is extremely strong. Beware of signal overload on amps.
- Red-yellow-green are all quite strong. You can expect reasonable coverage with an indoor antenna.
- Cyan is where it's advisable to move the antenna up to the second floor or attic.
- Blue is where it's probably necessary to install a good antenna on the roof.
- Purple is quite weak and you really have to work at it for any chance of reception.

The transmitters are represented by the green dots in the upper right hand corner. You can see the faint yellow line for Foothill Blvd at the left. Since you're just below Foothill, you'll notice that the KTTV shadow extends further to the south because it's doesn't clear the mountains quite as well. This probably puts you in the blue color range. If you really want to get those channels, it should be possible with a roof antenna or maybe an attic antenna depending on exactly where you are. You're having an easier time with most of the other channels because the transmitters are taller and positioned a little better.

For OTA reception, it's all about location, location, location, (and sometimes height).

I hope this helps!

Best regards,
Andy

dublus

05-09-07, 12:10 PM

Update:

Got the 91XG yesterday, slapped it together, stuck it on the pole and, bingo, same problem.

I tried different heights and horizontal angles but the one variable I didn't have time to explore was the vertical tilt angle. I know some folks here have posted that finding the correct vertical angle seemed to help.

I will certainly do that as soon as time permits but I am continually nagged with the thought that I've missed something. Why would the reception be so stellar for well over a year, then this dropping out problem pops up. Just to recap the problem, the signal on, say, channel 9 will be all the way up to 100 on our Dish VIP622, then dip to 0 for a second or so or sometimes longer, then shoot back up to 100. It does this on every channel, just the starting and ending signal strength is different depending on the station. I tried a different receiver, different coax run, different antenna (three total now) and no change except that the latest antenna produces the highest reception strength numbers.

I don't think there are any new mountains between Moorpark and Mt. Wilson so I have ruled that out. I know there are some very bright folks here. What have I missed? Wouldn't it seem logical that others in my general direction would be having similar problems? Assuming it's a local issue, is it possible that something in the neighborhood could do this?

Oppo_Man

05-09-07, 12:23 PM

Alaskaman and Andy,

Thank you both very much for the responses. Your information helps me out tremendously. Time for more research and most likely an outdoor antenna!

Since I am so new to this, I'm not sure how it works. If I purchase an outdoor antenna, do I still use my indoor one? Or do I bypass the indoor one, and will there be a coaxial connection that goes from the outdoor antenna, to my HD tuner? :o I'm guessing it's the latter.

narkspud

05-09-07, 01:15 PM

I don't think there are any new mountains between Moorpark and Mt. Wilson so I have ruled that out. I know there are some very bright folks here. What have I missed? Wouldn't it seem logical that others in my general direction would be having similar problems? Assuming it's a local issue, is it possible that something in the neighborhood could do this?

Local interference? Growing trees? New buildings in the vicinity? Or (dun dun DUNNNNNNN) a sick tuner?

Good luck.

dublus

05-09-07, 02:02 PM

Local interference? Growing trees? New buildings in the vicinity? Or (dun dun DUNNNNNNN) a sick tuner?

Good luck.

From the top of our house looking east toward Mt. Wilson, only the tops of the other houses on our street lie between our house and some foothills between Moorpark and Simi Valley. Just about every house has a palm tree or three but none of them are particularly large. Our street is the highest in this area and overlooks the local college and the surrounding area (we have a clear view of the Reagan Library from the back of our house).

The new building/structure idea has occurred to me but it would have to be somewhere beyond our direct view because there hasn't been any new construction around here. If there was, we would be able to see it clearly from our back yard or, if it was right in line with the other houses on the street, I would be able to see it from the top of the roof.

The receiver was the first thing I ruled out by trying a different one (Dish 942). It does exactly the same thing.

One thing that might be a slight possibility is the coax run from the antenna is only double shielded. When I tried a new run of coax it too was only double shielded. The reason was because our Home Depot only has quad shield in black and my wife (not to mention the Homeowners Association) wouldn't let me put a "big, ugly, black wire" on the side of the house. How likely would it be that the dropouts are being caused by "ingress" (I think thats what it would be?) ??? I have a 500 foot spool of black quad shield in the garage so maybe as a last resort I'll try some of that. If by some miracle it works I can always paint it.

Okay, I guess I'm rambling now. This situation has me about as annoyed as I ever get. Any other thoughts?

alaskaman1666

05-09-07, 03:00 PM

... This situation has me about as annoyed as I ever get. Any other thoughts?
Multipath!
You may not be able to see it but your decoder can.
It could be halfway between you and Mt. Wilson.
Try moving the antenna mount (pole) to another location on the roof.
Go North or south if your signals are due East but also East and West.
Take a short section of new premade coax and a receiver up to the roof.
Try to find the spot where the signal does not bounce between max and zero.
Use the 91XG. It's as good a multipath killer as any and high gain.
The short test piece (10 feet) of coax will rule out coax or connector problems.
You should find a good hot spot/ low multipath point on the roof.
Vertical tilt is usually 0 to 10 degrees.
You can't go wrong with 5 degrees uptilt.

eddy_winds

05-09-07, 03:02 PM

OTA in So. Cal is just a Bummer
:(

alaskaman1666

05-09-07, 03:15 PM

Alaskaman and Andy,
Thank you both very much for the responses. Your information helps me out tremendously. Time for more research and most likely an outdoor antenna!
... do I bypass the indoor one, and will there be a coaxial connection that goes from the outdoor antenna, to my HD tuner?
Yes!
You will need a high gain yagi or bow tie.
AntennasDirect 91XG yagi or Channel Master 4228 8 bay bow tie have the most gain.(Solidsignal website)
You need to mount them as high as possible in a hot spot on your roof.
You can use your indoor antenna to check for a hot spot on your roof.
Walk the roof with the antenna in hand while someone watches your signal strength.
You will need a coax run inside to the tv.
Mount your antenna mast in the best location based on your survey.
Mount your antenna up high on the pole and adjust direction and tilt for maximum signal and picture quality.

blue_z

05-09-07, 06:42 PM

This situation has me about as annoyed as I ever get. Any other thoughts?

Hi there

If you still have an (analog) NTSC TV, it might be interesting to view the reception of a few analog UHF channels. Multipath should show up as ghosts. RF interference might show up as herringbone or speckles or ???

Regards

blue_z

05-09-07, 07:09 PM

One thing that might be a slight possibility is the coax run from the antenna is only double shielded. When I tried a new run of coax it too was only double shielded. The reason was because our Home Depot only has quad shield in black and my wife (not to mention the Homeowners Association) wouldn't let me put a "big, ugly, black wire" on the side of the house. How likely would it be that the dropouts are being caused by "ingress" (I think thats what it would be?) ??? I have a 500 foot spool of black quad shield in the garage so maybe as a last resort I'll try some of that. If by some miracle it works I can always paint it.

Hi there

Quad shield coax is not necessarily better than a good double shield, or at least that's the Belden propaganda that I fell for. Even though there are "four" shields, each shield does not provide 100% coverage; it could be as porous as only 60%. Worse, the coverage is not additive. It's not 60% times 2 equal 120% coverage; when the gaps line up the coax will have spots of weak shielding.

The cheap coax also use steel braid, rather than lower resistance copper braid.
A bad install of the special F connector could also reduce the effectiveness of quad shielding.

For long cable runs, precision cable maintains its 75ohm characteristic impedance better than cheap coax. That means you get less signal loss and better noise immunity. BTW tight bends of coax cable are a no-no; I've seem electrical engineers ignorant of this.

For RG-6 coax, Belden 1694a is regarded as the best coax (foil + 95% copper braid).

BTW Belden 1694a is available in many jacket colors. However only the black cable is recommended for outdoor use; the other colors are for indoor use only.

Regards

jeff2631

05-09-07, 08:42 PM

From the top of our house looking east toward Mt. Wilson, only the tops of the other houses on our street lie between our house and some foothills between Moorpark and Simi Valley. Just about every house has a palm tree or three but none of them are particularly large. Our street is the highest in this area and overlooks the local college and the surrounding area (we have a clear view of the Reagan Library from the back of our house).

The new building/structure idea has occurred to me but it would have to be somewhere beyond our direct view because there hasn't been any new construction around here. If there was, we would be able to see it clearly from our back yard or, if it was right in line with the other houses on the street, I would be able to see it from the top of the roof.

The receiver was the first thing I ruled out by trying a different one (Dish 942). It does exactly the same thing.

One thing that might be a slight possibility is the coax run from the antenna is only double shielded. When I tried a new run of coax it too was only double shielded. The reason was because our Home Depot only has quad shield in black and my wife (not to mention the Homeowners Association) wouldn't let me put a "big, ugly, black wire" on the side of the house. How likely would it be that the dropouts are being caused by "ingress" (I think thats what it would be?) ??? I have a 500 foot spool of black quad shield in the garage so maybe as a last resort I'll try some of that. If by some miracle it works I can always paint it.

Okay, I guess I'm rambling now. This situation has me about as annoyed as I ever get. Any other thoughts?

There is a hill that you have to receive over. If you can get the antenna higher, that may help. Line of sight is about 122 meters, but that would be best case reception. See the following images.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/5237/dublus02yc1.th.jpg (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dublus02yc1.jpg)

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1205/dublus01tq0.th.jpg (http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dublus01tq0.jpg)

dublus

05-10-07, 12:36 AM

@alaskaman1666

As far as mounting the antenna in a different spot, with a tile roof and the fierce winds we get here, the only place I know of to mount it is on the corner of the chimney (with four mounting straps). I haven't really investigated what types of mounts could be used on a tile roof. At least I have something to look into.

@blue_z

The idea of checking for what type of analog interference is present is compelling. Again, gives me something to try this weekend.

@jeff2631

Thanks for the cool images. With the mast I have I can only go up to about 14' above the roofline. I knew that we aren't line of sight here but it was never an issue (assuming it is now) until a month ago.

@alaskaman1666

Yeah, so far it sure seems like multipath. The "which type of interference" test might hold the answer.

jeff2631

05-10-07, 01:17 AM

Maybe try a preamp since you don't have direct line of sight. Also try the quad shield cable.

dublus

05-10-07, 02:32 AM

Maybe try a preamp since you don't have direct line of sight. Also try the quad shield cable.

Preamp - check (CM 7777) no difference.

Quad shield - will try this weekend just for laughs.

Falcon_77

05-17-07, 11:15 AM

I once tried to get OTA DTV transmissions about a year ago with a small Terk antenna and a tuner that my brother had. I did not have much success at the time. Being in South Orange County, with as near as I can tell, no direct LOS to Mt. Wilson this did not surprise me. So I put the idea on the shelf until recently when I saw an article on OTA DTV. I decided to see what I could do this time around.

I have a Fusion USB tuner that I had been using to get digital QAM from my Cox cable subscription, but it was always flaky at best. However, the Fusion seems to do quite a bit better with OTA.

At first, I went to RS and picked up the RS 15-2160 that seemed to be recommended on here as a quick and easy starter/test antenna. I was disappointed to find that the box had already been opened and that I did not have any necessary parts to assemble the antenna. So, I took it back and the salesman somehow talked me into a more expensive antenna, that looked like a gimmick to me. It is the RS 15-1634. I would have included a link, but the system won't allow me to do so yet.

Despite being billed as an "omnidirectional" antenna, I have found it to be quite directional. The main problem is that the front is not clearly marked. However, what surprised me is that the antenna seems to be quite effective. To my surprise, I am getting a few channels with 100% signal. Most of the major channels are in the 60% to 90% range. However, KCET is down at 22% and won't come in and I have yet to be able to find KCOP. KTTV has been pretty flaky and seems to be susceptible to "June Gloom."

Finding out any real specs about the RS 15-1634 has been a challenge, but perhaps the antenna is not as much as a gimmick as I thought. I currently have it in my closest facing the window that looks in the direction of Mt. Wilson.

I am curious to see what a signal plot looks like in my area and whether I could do better with a different antenna. I have a fairly clear view in the direction of Mt. Wilson, though low hills tend to block direct sight (I have never seen it on the clearest days). I am in the Ladera Ranch area (92694).

Thank you for any help and suggestions.

dublus

05-17-07, 12:34 PM

Update:

Last time I checked in I was about ready to give up. Multipath seemed to be the problem and it wasn't practical to mount the antenna anywhere other than where it is on the chimney.

It occurred to me that there was one direction I hadn't tried moving the antenna - lower. In this position the antenna is just barely "peaking" over the top of the roof. It is a spanish style tile roof. I don't know if there's any metal in it, I suppose not. For some reason, lowering the antenna as far as it will go (almost touching the top of the chimney) has produced the most stabile images since this problem popped up a few weeks ago. At one point while trying to find the optimum horizontal and vertical angles, the picture on just about every channel remained unbroken. Only KTLA had a few glitches which was the same as before this whole thing began. Of course I couldn't resist the temptation to "make it better" so I messed it up again by trying different angles. At least I know that with a little more work I can get it back the way it was before.

So, whether it's the roof blocking the "bad" signal, merely the position or whatever it seems that I will soon be able to end my nightly trips up to the roof.

Thank you all for your help and encouragement.

blue_z

05-17-07, 03:44 PM

I am curious to see what a signal plot looks like in my area and whether I could do better with a different antenna. I have a fairly clear view in the direction of Mt. Wilson, though low hills tend to block direct sight (I have never seen it on the clearest days). I am in the Ladera Ranch area (92694).

Thank you for any help and suggestions.

Hi there

http://www.tvfool.com

has data files and describes how to setup Google Earth to display signal strength from a transmitter. You will have learn how to download with bit torrent though.

Regards

PS I just viewed zip 92694 on Google Earth with various LA transmitters turned on. It does look like decent reception, but find your house to get specific info.

gdavisloop

05-17-07, 07:37 PM

Did anyone in L.A. happen to watch or record Silversun Pickups on Conan last night from a high-def channel? There were repeated signal losses on mine - how was yours?
thanks--
--Gary

Falcon_77

05-17-07, 08:30 PM

TV Fool is a great site. Thanks!

I did a plot for my house and it yielded in Rx values between -85.7 and -130. KCET is at -99.7, which may explain my difficulty in receiving it. KCOP is -95.2, so I will give that another try as I am getting KABC which is returning a weaker score (-96.6). Overall though, the scores seem weaker than I would expect. Several channels have good reception with the RS 15-1634 operating indoors, which suggests that I am into the 70's (yellow zone) on some of them.

As I suspected, LOS doesn't show up on any channels. About half are 1Edge, with the other half 2Edge. It looks like I would need an 80' antenna to get LOS, which wouldn't fly with the HOA.

I will probably try putting my antenna in the attic to see what changes. I wouldn't be surprised to see it lose a bit. I suspect that a window is better to look through than wood siding. At least I don't have to worry about stucco.

Thanks again,

caunyd

05-18-07, 12:01 PM

I am located in the San Fernando Valley (specifically I'm located in Van Nuys), and for the first time, I'm going to get cable or satellite, and I was wondering if you could offer your advice on good cable or satellite companies/services.

Which cable or satellite company has the most channels (both standard and HD channels)?

Which one has the best video/audio quality?

And which company offers the best value? Thanks guys.

nathan118

05-18-07, 09:32 PM

Did anyone in L.A. happen to watch or record Silversun Pickups on Conan last night from a high-def channel? There were repeated signal losses on mine - how was yours?
thanks--
--Gary

Problems here also.

Falcon_77

05-21-07, 10:41 AM

I went to Fry's last weekend and spotted a Silver Sensor on the shelf. There were only two there and both were open boxes.

I am having very good results with the Silver Sensor in the attic right now. KCET and KTTV are coming through w/o any problems now. I was also able to pick-up the Funimation Channel (18.3), which was a surprise. Many stations are now at 100%, with a lower end Channel Master Pre-Amp (3043).

With this, I must be in a better spot than the plots put me. I suspect that I am in the light green zone at least. I tried the same antenna at a friends house less than a mile away and we had very little success.

I was all prepared to order a larger Channel Master antenna for the attic, so it's almost a disappointment that the Silver Sensor performs so well. Perhaps I will still need to do that when the channels move back to VHF, which makes me wonder... If this little Silver Sensor works so well in a UHF fringe area (50+ miles), why move the channels back to VHF?

blue_z

05-21-07, 03:16 PM

With this, I must be in a better spot than the plots put me. I suspect that I am in the light green zone at least. I tried the same antenna at a friends house less than a mile away and we had very little success.

Hi there

Sounds like you didn't try viewing Google Earth yet with the transmitter coverage maps (yet). I'm in central OC, and the coverage around my house is a rather boring, uniform color. But over in your neighborhood, the map can change from the green (decent reception) to blue (poor) in just a few blocks.

Seems like a VHF channel assignment has always been preferred over a UHF channel. Do you remember old TVs with rotary dials? The VHF channels had a dial with discrete selections for channels 2-13. But UHF channels had to be tuned-in by rotating the dial back and forth to find the sweet-spot.

Regards

Falcon_77

05-21-07, 08:18 PM

Sounds like you didn't try viewing Google Earth yet with the transmitter coverage maps (yet). I'm in central OC, and the coverage around my house is a rather boring, uniform color. But over in your neighborhood, the map can change from the green (decent reception) to blue (poor) in just a few blocks.

Seems like a VHF channel assignment has always been preferred over a UHF channel. Do you remember old TVs with rotary dials? The VHF channels had a dial with discrete selections for channels 2-13. But UHF channels had to be tuned-in by rotating the dial back and forth to find the sweet-spot.

I ran the Google Earth signal plot for many of the local stations and they have a similar result. It varies from a really faint blue or nothing at all, right at my house. However, there are patches of green not too far away. I'm sure these aren't designed to be exact tools and I'm happy that it's a bit off in my case. For a friend that lives close by, however, it is unfortunately rather accurate. We couldn't get anything to come through as watchable on analog UHF (he doesn't have any HD tuners). The best we could get was half way decent sound on a few channels. The picture was mostly colorless snow or almost totally full of interference.

My area is very hit and miss, but it makes me wonder what I could do with a "real" antenna, such as a Channel Master 4221. Sadly, I can't get a 4228 in my attic, but if a Silver Sensor is performing like a star up there, what more would I need?

However, as I'm concerned about VHF down the road, maybe a Crossfire or Advantage would be a better choice, assuming the VHF elements can be folded to pass thru the attic access hole. It's is only 20" x 28".

I forgot about the UHF sweet spot... those were the days. I used to be a walking remote control.

blue_z

05-22-07, 01:27 AM

Sadly, I can't get a 4228 in my attic, ...

Hi there

If the diagonal attic opening is at least 30" wide, then a partially disassembled ChannelMaster 8-bay antenna can be stuffed through. I just did this a few weeks ago when Fry's had the 4228 on sale for $50. Four aluminum rivets can be drilled out and two nuts loosened to separate one side from the crossmembers. Re-assemble up in the attic with #10 machine screws and nuts. Used a wood closet pole screwed to the rafters for the antenna mast. Resulting reception (which is super!) does not seems affected by the hack.

So you have another option down the road.

Regards

holl_ands

05-22-07, 03:51 PM

I only had to bend some tabs out of the way to release the two rear screens.

Da_G

05-23-07, 02:12 AM

Woo! Getting good OTA reception has certainly been a project for me!

At one house in Rialto, CA, i get great reception with a $22 radioshack U-75R, 75 feet of RG-6QS, and an Artec T14a USB Tuner, on a pole in my backyard at just about roof level. Oddly I have to aim it slightly downward to get perfect reception on all channels (the hardest to get are 13.1/66/KCOP and 58.1/41/PBS, I get all the rest without being precise in the aiming) - This house shows up just on the border between green and blue on most stations in tvfool's google earth overlay.

At my other house in Riverside, CA, things are quite a bit different, the google earth overlay shows me between purple and blue in some stations, and between purple and nothing in others.. i'm in the shadow of the jurupa hills, 3 peaks in a series. With a CM 4228, 3 ft RG6-QS to a CM 7777 preamp, 75 ft RG6-QS to the power block, 3 ft RG6-QS to a 20db variable attenuator, and 6 ft RG6-QS to the Artec T14a tuner, I get all stations but 7.1/53/KABC and 13.1/66/KCOP. I have to turn the attenuator to various positions depending on which channel i'm looking for. I found that without the attenuator at all the CM 7777 pretty much kills my signal entirely, I believe the station 24.1/26/KVCR which is about 5 miles from me on a hill, clearly visible, is overloading things.. the 4228 is pointed almost directly opposite the station but it's so close I get 100% signal anyway. I wonder if a notch filter for that channel would help things out? I'm sure I could attenuate it a huge amount without losing it. It shows up as -37.1dBm on tvfool, compared to 28.1/59/KCET which shows up as my hardest to receive station at -122.5dBm, oddly enough I was able to get this station just fine before installing the preamp, but I can't get KABC which shows up as -121.7, even with the preamp :O

All stations are within 2 degrees of each other (290.0 to 291.1) so that's not an issue. Having hooked up an analog tv to the antenna I did notice ghosting on about 33% of the channels and snow on a bit more, so multipath is probably affecting me too. I havent messed around with the antenna location for the 4228 too much, it's also 6 ft off the ground on a pole, I located it at a sweet spot I found previously for KCBS with a homemade DB4 antenna.

Anyone have any suggestions for getting in KABC and KCOP besides relocating the antenna? I don't care so much about KCOP, but I want KABC because I like their HD news. I plan to fiddle with the location of the antenna and put it up on the roof eventually, but want to get reception as good as possible on ground level before doing so. It's almost good enough as is to forego the roof entirely :O Not bad for purple/nothing.

Falcon_77

05-23-07, 03:28 PM

Anyone have any suggestions for getting in KABC and KCOP besides relocating the antenna? I don't care so much about KCOP, but I want KABC because I like their HD news. I plan to fiddle with the location of the antenna and put it up on the roof eventually, but want to get reception as good as possible on ground level before doing so. It's almost good enough as is to forego the roof entirely :O Not bad for purple/nothing.

KCOP has been really tough for me to receive as well. The best I've done so far is get into the mid 50's on it. KABC was also a problem, but moving my antenna into the attic helped.

I don't know why KCOP is playing hard to get. Looking at my TV Fool plot, it is -95dBm, but there are several stations below that which I receive just fine.

Falcon_77

05-23-07, 03:33 PM

I only had to bend some tabs out of the way to release the two rear screens.

Well, I guess the only problem I will have is getting the thing in the car. Maybe I can get a friend to help me with an SUV.

It appears that Winegard has a model that might be easier to manage. e.g. the PR-8800. I could also try the Antenna Direct DB antennas. Some of these can be folded.

dotheDVDeed

05-23-07, 04:04 PM

So first was KABC 7
Next was KTLA 5
and pretty recently they were joined by the KCBS 2 / KCAL 9 duopoly.

Who's next? Anyone working behind the scenes be kind enough to fill us in.

:)

holl_ands

05-23-07, 05:08 PM

Well, I guess the only problem I will have is getting the thing in the car. Maybe I can get a friend to help me with an SUV.

It appears that Winegard has a model that might be easier to manage. e.g. the PR-8800. I could also try the Antenna Direct DB antennas. Some of these can be folded.
But CM4228 is only one that had significant gain in the High-VHF (CH7-13) band,
per Kerry Cozad on-air range measurements and hdtvprimer NEC SIM runs.

jeff2631

05-23-07, 07:56 PM

So first was KABC 7
Next was KTLA 5
and pretty recently they were joined by the KCBS 2 / KCAL 9 duopoly.

Who's next? Anyone working behind the scenes be kind enough to fill us in.

:)

KNBC 4 already has network news in HD and their local news will probably be next. KTTV 11 is not in any hurry and will probably be last. Who else is left?

Falcon_77

05-23-07, 08:19 PM

But CM4228 is only one that had significant gain in the High-VHF (CH7-13) band,
per Kerry Cozad on-air range measurements and hdtvprimer NEC SIM runs.

What is the status on the VHF channels in the LA area? I can't seem to find anything concrete about which channels will be kept.

I would rather have them do away with at least 2-6, just do to the wavelength if nothing else.

holl_ands

05-23-07, 09:32 PM

What is the status on the VHF channels in the LA area? I can't seem to find anything concrete about which channels will be kept.

I would rather have them do away with at least 2-6, just do to the wavelength if nothing else.
The SOCAL DTV Channel Elections have not changed since Oct2005,
other than KRCA-DT is tentatively assigned to CH45 vice requested CH35:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6416393&highlight=election#post6416393
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-1082A2.xls
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-1675A2.xls

And as stated, earlier, only Eureka DTV CH3 elected Low-VHF band in ALL of California.

blue_z

05-23-07, 09:51 PM

KCOP has been really tough for me to receive as well. The best I've done so far is get into the mid 50's on it. KABC was also a problem, but moving my antenna into the attic helped.

I don't know why KCOP is playing hard to get. Looking at my TV Fool plot, it is -95dBm, but there are several stations below that which I receive just fine.

Hi there

From the gain curves of various antennae, you should not assume that an antenna receives any or all frequencies/channels equally. Combine the low radiated power level, variable reception conditions along with unknown attenuation when the signal passes through the roof. I wouldn't be surprised if someone reported that the attenuation of a TV signal through material X (e.g. clay tile with unknown mineral content) varied by frequency. Signal loss through coax cable is frequency dependent, is documented and is predictable; some antenna preamps actually compensate for frequency-related cable loss.

Regards

Falcon_77

05-24-07, 03:12 PM

The SOCAL DTV Channel Elections have not changed since Oct2005,
other than KRCA-DT is tentatively assigned to CH45 vice requested CH35:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6416393&highlight=election#post6416393
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-1082A2.xls
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-06-1675A2.xls

And as stated, earlier, only Eureka DTV CH3 elected Low-VHF band in ALL of California.

Great. Thank you very much for the info. With any luck, I will be able to try out the 4228 this weekend.

I'm guessing I won't need the CM 7777 pre-amp as I'm already getting good results with the Silver Sensor and CM 3043 amp.

kmillard92

05-25-07, 07:19 PM

Anyone having problems on KABC's Eyewitness News HD feed @4? There are black bars on of sides of the pic.

blue_z

05-25-07, 07:48 PM

Anyone having problems on KABC's Eyewitness News HD feed @4? There are black bars on of sides of the pic.

Nope. I'm seeing the expected widescreen image on 7.1.

Falcon_77

05-26-07, 11:41 AM

Well, I finally got around to hooking up my rabbit ears to test response of the analog 2-6 band. I extended them to their full length of 80" tip to tip. Channel 2-6 reception is certainly better than the Silver Sensor, but 7-13 is not.

However, what was more surprising is that they work fairly well for UHF. I am still getting 100% on a few digital channels with them.

All stations have lower signal strength, but there are only a few that I can't get with the Rabbit Ears that I could get with the Silver Sensor.

This is still with the 10dB CM 3043 amp.

I can't imagine what kind of gain that Rabbit Ears have for UHF, but it has to be very negative (less than -30?). As such, the true signal strengths here must be far stronger than I could have imagined.

At this point, getting a 4228 may over-drive my system. It seems that trial and error have as much weight as logic and reason with these things. I guess RF is still "black magic" as much as anything.

kmillard92

05-26-07, 03:10 PM

Nope. I'm seeing the expected widescreen image on 7.1.

Ok, it was fixed when the 5 o clock news started.

Falcon_77

05-27-07, 06:18 PM

Well, I got the 4228 this weekend and put it up in the attic a couple hours ago. I have put some information in the Antenna thread, but as respects the LA area I am now able to get KCOP without any problems. KABC and KTTV are solid now after being hit and miss at times before.

Even some analog UHF channels look good with this antenna. As for analog VHF, I am able to get 4 & 5 (very poor), 2 (poor), 9 & 11 (decent w/interference) 7 & 13 (good). So, with any luck, it will do well with 7-13 in a couple years.

Thank you for your help.

holl_ands

05-28-07, 01:35 AM

Da_G

05-29-07, 02:06 AM

Nearest x-street would be finly ct. and fairmount blvd. - there are a bunch of 2 story apts between me and KVCR that should be attenuating it some, also there is a chickenwire mesh there too.

I've tried a 10db attenuator pad between antenna and preamp, this hasnt helped so far, altho ive not tried the 20db variable there. If the preamp was overloading, wouldn't the attenuator pad 'fix' that?

Where might I get a notch filter to try that?

holl_ands

05-29-07, 02:50 PM

Notch Filters for a similar situation were discussed in this post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9133849&highlight=notch#post9133849
A Single Notch filter attacks the Video carrier on an analog signal,
whereas a Dual Notch filter attacks both the Video and Aural carriers.
Since energy for a digital station is spread across the entire 5.8 MHz bandwidth,
a Dual Notch filter works better than a Single Notch filter.

You'll need one for CH24 (Analog KVCR) and another for CH26 (Digital KVCR-DT).

The 10 dB pad between antenna and Preamp might be too much for the desired signal.
For every 1 dB of attenation, the intermod distortion products are reduced by 3 dB.
(That's 9 dB for a 3 dB pad and 18 dB for a 6 dB pad).

I ran some quick Radio-Mobile runs....yes, despite F/B ratio of CM4228,
the CM-7777 will be overloaded by A-KVCR and KVCR-DT if you mount it up in the air.
This means intermod products are preventing reception on certain affected channels.
"Hiding" antenna behind buildings and chicken wire is helping to reduce overload.

Even if mounted on the roof, the HDP-269 should provide the maximum
"Spurious Free Dynamic Range", meaning the intermod products will be
pushed close to the thermal noise floor, with only a 2 dB loss in sensitivity
(compared to CM7777, if it wasn't suffering from a loss of sensitivity due to overload).

If you enter your location into www.tvfool.com, you'll see that your NO-GO
stations (KCOP-DT, KABC-DT and probably also KCET-DT?) are the weakest.

Even though it is suppressed by the CM4228's F/B Ratio, Analog KSGA (CH64) is
still received about 25-30 dB per Radio-Mobile (and 38-43 dB per TVFool data)
stronger than KTTV-DT (CH65) and KCOP-DT (CH66).

Depending on the characteristics of your HDTV's tuner, this could cause problems for both
KTTV-DT and KCOP-DT, esp. if you mount the antenna on the roof and no longer have blockage.
[ATSC A/74 Guidelines suggest the undesired analog signal be no more than 35 dB
higher than an adjacent digital signal and next adjacent be no more than 40 dB higher.]

hdtvintheie

05-30-07, 03:42 PM

Rick_R

05-31-07, 12:26 PM

All this week I have noticed that Jay Leno has had no audio on the digital OTA and satellite HD channel. Is this me or has anyone else seen this. Some but not all commercials restore the audio. This happens with both of my STB. My third STB, which is a SD digital receiver for my DVD recorder, doesn't even get KNBC now. KNBC must be having big problems. Can anyone else confirm or deny this?

Rick R

Da_G

05-31-07, 07:47 PM

I've expierenced issues with the audio on 4.1 as well. I got everything but the voice track for a time.

Falcon_77

05-31-07, 09:04 PM

I checked TVFOOL and the only thing I can tell is that there are co-channel warnings and KTLA-DT has an adjacent warning. My question is, what can I do with co-channel interference? I'm assuming that's the problem. Not too concerned about KTLA-DT.

It appears that the co-channel warnings on channels 43 and 36 are coming out of the Fresno area. Judging by the mountains that you are up against, it is hard to see them coming into play. Still, it may be worth trying to change the antenna angle to see if the problems on these channels go away.

How many other channels are you getting? What happens when you turn the antenna towards KVCR (26) or KRMV (45)? Are you able to pick these up ok with and w/o the pre-amp?

Looking back towards Mt. Wilson, the coverage map shows you in the dark blue region, but I would think you can do better if the antenna pulls 40-50 w/o an amp.

holl_ands

06-01-07, 03:51 AM

It appears that the co-channel warnings on channels 43 and 36 are coming out of the Fresno area. Judging by the mountains that you are up against, it is hard to see them coming into play. Still, it may be worth trying to change the antenna angle to see if the problems on these channels go away.

How many other channels are you getting? What happens when you turn the antenna towards KVCR (26) or KRMV (45)? Are you able to pick these up ok with and w/o the pre-amp?

Looking back towards Mt. Wilson, the coverage map shows you in the dark blue region, but I would think you can do better if the antenna pulls 40-50 w/o an amp.
A DTV signal can tolerate another DTV signal if it is somewhat more than 15 dB
below desired signal. If you are pointing the antenna to the desired station, co-channel
interference shouldn't be a problem, cuz stations should always be widely separated.

In LA, an exception is CH23 (KTBN-DT, KVMD-DT and XETV-DT in Tijuana).

CH36 (KNBC-DT) has co-channel problems towards Palm Springs and in
South San Diego County due to a low power station on Mt Miguel.

Per FCC database, CH43 (KCAL-DT) doesn't have a co-channel problem
until you approach the low power transmitters in San Marcos (West of Escondido)
and South San Diego on Mt Miguel.

CH53 (KABC-DT) has a problem towards San Diego, due to Qualcomm's
50 KW MediaFlo transmitter (temp assignment) East of Del Mar on Black Mtn.

===========================
On the other hand, adjacent channel interference is a dynamic range situation.
If you have a nearby station, the AGC action in the tuner can prevent reception of
a desired weak signal. There are also some intermod issues......

An antenna with a good Front/Back Ratio can help to suppress the nearby
station....plus physical barriers.....unfortunately notch filters kill the desired signal.

holl_ands

06-01-07, 04:32 AM

I live in Fontana, with Mango and Cambria as the cross streets. I have a directional antenna (channel master 3016) on the roof and a pre-amp (winegard ap-8700). Before I added the pre-amp I was able to get KNBC-DT, KTLA-DT and KCAL-DT with occasional signal drops. My receiver (Hughes HTL-HD) was able to lock on but most of the time the channels were kind of unwatchable, that's why I added a pre-amp. After I added the pre-amp, I am now not able to get any of these. Using the signal test on my receiver all are 0 where I would get 40's to 50's before. I know the pre-amp works because my SD channels have improved considerably and the KABC-DT and KCBS-DT signals have increased.

I checked TVFOOL and the only thing I can tell is that there are co-channel warnings and KTLA-DT has an adjacent warning. My question is, what can I do with co-channel interference? I'm assuming that's the problem. Not too concerned about KTLA-DT.
You are in a difficult location....you need a Preamp due to mountains being in the
way towards Mt Wilson.....but the nearby stations are generating intermod products
in the AP8700 on certain affected channel positions.
The signal level into the HDTV is also very strong, which can cause additional
intermod problems......

My DTV Overload spread sheet calculations (based on Radio-Mobile) indicate
you need the low-gain, very high overload W-G HDP-269 Preamp in order to ensure
the intermod products are pushed down to the thermal noise floor, yielding the
maximum Spurious Free Dynamic Range.

Then, you can see if your HDTV's tuner has enough dynamic range....fortunately,
it should have a tuned front end to suppress far away channels....

hdtvintheie

06-01-07, 04:46 PM

You are in a difficult location....you need a Preamp due to mountains being in the
way towards Mt Wilson.....but the nearby stations are generating intermod products
in the AP8700 on certain affected channel positions.
The signal level into the HDTV is also very strong, which can cause additional
intermod problems......

My DTV Overload spread sheet calculations (based on Radio-Mobile) indicate
you need the low-gain, very high overload W-G HDP-269 Preamp in order to ensure
the intermod products are pushed down to the thermal noise floor, yielding the
maximum Spurious Free Dynamic Range.

Then, you can see if your HDTV's tuner has enough dynamic range....fortunately,
it should have a tuned front end to suppress far away channels....

Thank you. I just ordered my HDP-269 Preamp, can't wait.

dublus

06-04-07, 07:46 PM

Now that I found the source of my OTA reception troubles (the Dish 622), the desire to clean up reception on the last holdout channel (KTLA 5) has been rekindled.

From the very beginning two years ago channel 5 has always been the one that would have occasional dropouts. When watching the signal strength, it will creep up and up until it sometimes gets all the way up to 100 then slowly trickle down until, right about when it hits 60, the picture breaks up and the "Signal Has Been Lost" message appears. Then, after anywhere from one second to 30 seconds but usually less than 5 seconds, the picture will recover and the signal strength will once again begin to creep up, repeating the cycle over and over.

If I'm reading it correctly, looking at TV Fool, KTLA should be my strongest channel. My zip is 93021.

Is this a classic symptom of a particular reception problem? What would cause this sort of cyclical waxing and waning of the signal strength? None of the other channels do this in such a noticeable way. And, more importantly, is there anything that can be done at my end to eliminate the problem (relocating the antenna is not an option).

hdtvintheie

06-05-07, 01:01 PM

Thank you. I just ordered my HDP-269 Preamp, can't wait.
I was thinking about my problem with my preamp and I just wanted to clarify, is the overloading happening in the preamp or in my receiver? If it is on the receiver, is there something I can put between the preamp and the receiver to prevent overloading? Maybe something between the antenna and the preamp?

Trying to avoid buying a new preamp because I can't return the other one. Thinking there might be a cheaper way to go about it.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

dlt21

06-07-07, 08:55 PM

I was wondering if anyone had any info when KNBC was going HD for their newscasts. One would think an NBC O&O would be there already!!

holl_ands

06-08-07, 01:24 AM

I was thinking about my problem with my preamp and I just wanted to clarify, is the overloading happening in the preamp or in my receiver? If it is on the receiver, is there something I can put between the preamp and the receiver to prevent overloading? Maybe something between the antenna and the preamp?

Trying to avoid buying a new preamp because I can't return the other one. Thinking there might be a cheaper way to go about it.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.
As you've probably figured, since there are a number of factors we can
only guess at, this isn't an exact science....Hence a lot of trial and error....

What we do know are some overload specs for C-M, W-G and B-T Preamps.
The AP-8700 will be operating with strong signals that can reasonably be
expected to reduce overall dynamic range....How much? Hard to guesstimate....
Manufacturer specs presume several equally strong signals...which
almost never occurs in the real world....so gotta derate specs....

The output of the high gain AP-8700 will result in fairly strong signals on the
input of your HDTV.....but I don't know at what point it will degrade reception.
[One of the "missing" pieces of information in this puzzle.]
A quick way to find out is to simply insert one or two 2-way RF splitters
(4 dB each) and see if anything improves.

If you want to try one more thing with the AP-8700, you could temporarily
insert a 2-way splitter between the Antenna and the Preamp.
A 4 dB attenuation will reduce intermod products by 12 dB (3:1 relationship).
One (or two) 2 dB attenuators would also be a good test, if you can find any,
with a much smaller loss of ultimate sensitivity.

PS: The HDP-269 can tolerate an input signal 8 dB stronger than the
AP-8700/4700 with perhaps only 1 dB loss of sensitivity on channels not
affected by intermod products.

PPS: Isn't AP-8700 also overloaded by nearby high power VHF stations????

holl_ands

06-08-07, 01:35 AM

raiser72

06-08-07, 02:29 PM

WeHoMyke

06-08-07, 02:35 PM

I was wondering if anyone had any info when KNBC was going HD for their newscasts. One would think an NBC O&O would be there already!!

I emailed KNBC's news director last night about that and that I was a little annoyed at the Paris Hilton coverage. He responded the next morning. ( I was shocked how fast he responed):

Thanks very much for your note. The NBC stations division shuffled the digital deck differently that some. The priority here was digital newsgathering and infrastructure. We’ve pretty well got that down and high definition has moved to the top of the priority pile. The first step will be broadcasting in digital 16X9, hopefully within the month. You’ll have an excellent picture and it will fill the screen. In the meantime, while we might not yet be the widest news in town I hope you will continue to consider us the deepest. We had not devoted much time to Ms. Hilton until the battle between her judge and the sheriff elevated the affair to a real story. No matter how improbable or distasteful it may seen, Ms. Hilton has now become the catalyst for debate over how our criminal justice system works. All I can do is promise you we won’t gush.

Best regards,

Bob Long

KNBC News Director

Falcon_77

06-08-07, 04:00 PM

Hi, I just purchased a house in Lake Park, Laguna Niguel (XS Aliso Creek and La Paz). Anyone here have recommendation for OTA antenna and any required amplification? I ordered an OnAir GT (not here yet) due to strong reviews about pulling in low signals. I have hills all around so I expect pulling in SD or LA channels to be difficult but not impossible.

I have a Radio Shack double-bowtie indoor antenna and can barely pull in two analog channels which are fuzzy and roll. Since my house is stucco, I expect an outdoor antenna would work better to overcome the Faraday Cage effect, but I have zero experience with them.

I am having great success with the Channel Master 4228, which Fry's carries. I have this antenna in the attic, but my house does not have stucco on the 2nd floor.

How is your reception when the antenna points out of a window looking to the NW? This should give you an idea of how much the stucco is hurting.

Looking at your TV Fool plots and coverage maps, you appear to be solidly in the blue zone for the LA signals with readings of -82 to -103. I think you could do at least as well I am if you can get an outdoor antenna up.

As for getting San Diego signals, your prospects, like mine appear to be almost non-existent.

Rutgerskid

06-08-07, 04:28 PM

Hello from the East Coast...New Jersey to be precise. I was wondering about the KNBC 4.4 digital station. I am streaming it online right now. Is this new? Can you give me any info about it? I think it is a great idea for breaking news (not necessarily todays, but for more serious matters). The graphics are great, and the host is great also. Pretty nifty for a digital sub-network. I hope all NBC O&O are working on this.

dlt21

06-08-07, 08:16 PM

I emailed KNBC's news director last night about that and that I was a little annoyed at the Paris Hilton coverage. He responded the next morning. ( I was shocked how fast he responed):

Thanks very much for your note. The NBC stations division shuffled the digital deck differently that some. The priority here was digital newsgathering and infrastructure. We’ve pretty well got that down and high definition has moved to the top of the priority pile. The first step will be broadcasting in digital 16X9, hopefully within the month. You’ll have an excellent picture and it will fill the screen. In the meantime, while we might not yet be the widest news in town I hope you will continue to consider us the deepest. We had not devoted much time to Ms. Hilton until the battle between her judge and the sheriff elevated the affair to a real story. No matter how improbable or distasteful it may seen, Ms. Hilton has now become the catalyst for debate over how our criminal justice system works. All I can do is promise you we won’t gush.

Best regards,

Bob Long

KNBC News Director
thank you

joe221

06-09-07, 11:49 AM

joe221

06-09-07, 11:50 AM

raiser72

06-09-07, 10:42 PM

I am having great success with the Channel Master 4228, which Fry's carries. I have this antenna in the attic, but my house does not have stucco on the 2nd floor.

How is your reception when the antenna points out of a window looking to the NW? This should give you an idea of how much the stucco is hurting.

Wow, only $70. What else will I need besides the antenna (a pole, some wires, an amplifier, an electrician, etc...)?

I haven't tried pointing the antenna out the window as I have no windows facing the NW, the wonder of tract housing. I have one facing roughly west I guess I could try that and see what's up, or watch TV in my sunroom :) I am window challenged and compass-less, which is great for controlling ambient light to my projection room, not so good for TV reception.

holl_ands

06-09-07, 10:57 PM

Fry's flyer has CM4228 on sale for $50.

Falcon_77

06-10-07, 02:41 PM

Wow, only $70. What else will I need besides the antenna (a pole, some wires, an amplifier, an electrician, etc...)?

I haven't tried pointing the antenna out the window as I have no windows facing the NW, the wonder of tract housing. I have one facing roughly west I guess I could try that and see what's up, or watch TV in my sunroom :) I am window challenged and compass-less, which is great for controlling ambient light to my projection room, not so good for TV reception.

I am getting by with a low power Channel Master Distribution amp. that Fry's has (the CM3043 - $25). However, if that doesn't do the trick, there is the much more powerful CM7777 pre-amp (that I couldn't find at Fry's). As for a mast, Fry's sells them fairly cheap. I got a 5' mast for $6 and a couple $5 brackets.

Since we are practically neighbors, I took a look at the hills in your area and it seems comparable to what I'm dealing with. If you can see that hill with the water tank towards the West, the antenna will need to point about 30 degrees right of that. How clear of a view do you have in that direction?

RG6 cable will be needed, but it appears that all the houses in the area have stucco all the way up to the roofline. As such, you would most likely stand to gain greatly with an outside mount. I was able to install mine in the attic with little fuss, but if I had to install it outside, I might have had to seek a professional installer.

The OnAir GT appears to be a tuner similar to the Fusion USB tuner that I have. Looking at the antenna it comes with, I would not expect great results from it. I would assume that it can work with a separate antenna as well.

I showed a friend of mine the results of my project yesterday and he was quite surprised. With the sale at Fry's I may be helping him install his own CM 4228 antenna. He also lives in Ladera Ranch, but has stucco up to the 2nd story. I am going to do some testing with the Silver Sensor to see what his prospects really look like. He could do an attic mount as the antenna would point through the roof asphalt tiles, which may be better than looking through stucco.

raiser72

06-10-07, 09:29 PM

Well from my yard the only thing I can identify is Soka U which is roughly due west. From the top of my house I should have a relatively clear sightline to the NW, though probably La Habra hills between me and Mt Wilson. Need to climb up top again. Hopefully Fry's doesn't sell out of the antenna as I will plan to pick one up for $50 tomorrow. I may be able to angle it NW out a high window in my vaulted ceilings which would eliminate the need for roof mount, but may not pass the WAF. I really need a compass.

blue_z

06-11-07, 01:37 AM

I really need a compass.

Hi there

If you enter your street address, www.antennaweb.org will display a map of your location with a vector pointing to the LA transmitter(s). If your house walls are parallel/orthogonal to the street (assuming a straight street), then use a protractor.

Also if you have a deed map to your property, then the property boundary lines should have compass bearings.

Regards

raiser72

06-11-07, 10:44 AM

using www.antennaweb.org I am able to reference the cross streets, it appears if I point the antenna at Wal-Mart I should be looking the right direction. I should be able to see the Wal-Mart from my roof line, fortunately not from ground level. It turns out Wal-mart is actually good for something other than purchasing my OnAir GT HDTV tuner!

Falcon_77

06-11-07, 11:21 AM

I showed a friend of mine the results of my project yesterday and he was quite surprised. With the sale at Fry's I may be helping him install his own CM 4228 antenna. He also lives in Ladera Ranch, but has stucco up to the 2nd story. I am going to do some testing with the Silver Sensor to see what his prospects really look like. He could do an attic mount as the antenna would point through the roof asphalt tiles, which may be better than looking through stucco.

Well, the experiment was much more successful, when not looking through stucco. Also, the performance from the attic is almost as good as looking through the window. We ran out of time yesterday to pick up the antenna, but if the sale goes through Tuesday, he may have time to get it.

Not using a splitter made a big difference. He is able to get about 1/3 of the available channels without the splitter. With a stronger get antenna like the CM4228 and a distribution amp., I expect that he will do well.

On another note, I was in CostCo over the weekend and was not too pleased to find this "handy" notice under just about every TV. (see attached) Note how it says, "Contact your local cable or Satellite TV provider for details on how to upgrade to High-Definition (HD) programming."

Of course, they don't mention that the TV's there could get an HDTV picture with an antenna! I didn't see any that didn't have an HD Tuner built-in. Only a Pansonic TV box made any mention of this.

blue_z

06-11-07, 04:16 PM

Of course, they don't mention that the TV's there could get an HDTV picture with an antenna!

Hi there

Didn't you know that antennae are old fashioned? They went out with vacuum tube stereo, vinyl records and CRTs. "Digital is better!" Friends know me as the fuddy-duddy that still uses all these "obsolete" technologies.

The ignorance that gets propagated is saddening.

I'm still trying to convince a friend to get an antenna to receive OTA on his year-old 42" HDTV set; they're still watching analog cable and don't want to upgrade for HD.

Regards

raiser72

06-12-07, 02:06 PM

So I made the Fry's (Fountain Valley) run yesterday and picked up the second to last 4228. The last one was an open box/return. $49.99 and I added in some mounting stuff and cable as well. I plugged it in today to see how well it picks up analog channels as my OnAir GT isn't here yet. Using it in the middle of my living room pointing generally NW with plenty of obstructions I can pick up several stable, but grainy UHF and a few high-band VHF (7, 9) analog stations. I am hopeful that HDTV signals are all or nothing as they should be, because I am thinking I can get HDTV OTA now... more info to come.

Man this antenna is huge!

holl_ands

06-12-07, 04:35 PM

Huge???? The nearest competition, the 91XG has a rear reflector that is somewhat
smaller than the CM-4228, but the boom with the elements takes up over 7 feet:
http://www.geocities.com/Figbert/antennasdirect91xg.html
It would take up most of the open floor space in an average living room.

My CM4228 fits in a upstairs closet, shooting through the roof (rather than stucco),
technically qualifying it as an "indoor" antenna....

I've also hung it above the upstairs "loft" and from a hook in the living room
(a modern expression of object d'art de l'electronico).

Falcon_77

06-13-07, 11:13 AM

The box for the CM4228 is certainly unwieldy to deal with and while the antenna has some degree of size (compared to the Silver Sensor), there are others that can truly be called huge. When I got mine at the FV Fry's they had 3 new boxes left.

I was also looking at the CM3018 to try out as that may have been easier to get into the car. The CM3018 box looks smaller, but the dimensions, once assembled are 113" x 95" x 22". Channel Master has larger "combo" antennae available, with the biggest (Crossfire 3671) having dimensions of 173x110x35. I remember installing a Channel Master Quantum antenna on a roof years ago. That was quite an adventure. I think that one was over 8' long.

At least locally, we don't really have to deal with channel 2-6, which require the longest dipoles. That is the main reason I didn't want to deal with a VHF/UHF combo antenna at this point.

Did you pick up an amplifier as well? In my experience, the right ones are well worth it for DTV signals.

bgooch

06-13-07, 07:40 PM

Antennas Find New Life in HDTV Age
Apr 28, 1:12 PM EST
The Associated Press

Buying an antenna for a high-definition television seems as out of place as using a rotary phone to make a call.

But some consumers are spending thousands of dollars on LCD or plasma TVs and hooking them up to $50 antennas that don't look much different from what grandpa had on top of his black-and-white picture tube.

They're not doing it for the nostalgia.

Local TV channels, broadcast in HD over-the-air, offer superior picture quality over the often-compressed signals sent by cable and satellite TV companies.

And the best part? Over-the-air HD is free.

"Eighty-year-old technology is being redesigned and rejiggered to deliver the best picture quality," said Richard Schneider, president of Antennas Direct. "It's an interesting irony."

A few years ago, Schneider started an assembly line in his garage and sold antennas out of the trunk of his car. Now his Eureka, Mo.-based company has seven employees and did $1.4 million in sales last year. He expects revenue to double in 2007.

"People thought I was nuts. They were laughing at me when I told them I was starting an antenna company," Schneider said.

Before cable and satellite existed, people relied on antennas to receive analog signals from local TV stations' broadcasting towers. Stations still send out analog signals, but most now transmit HD digital signals as well. (Congress has ordered broadcasters to shut off old-style analog TV broadcasts by Feb. 17, 2009.)

Consumers who can get a digital signal from an antenna will get an excellent picture, said Steve Wilson, principal analyst for consumer electronics at ABI Research.

One major difference with a digital over-the-air signal is it doesn't get snowy and fuzzy like the old analog signal. Instead, the picture will turn into tiny blocks and go black.

"You either get it or you don't," said Dale Cripps, founder and co-publisher of HDTV Magazine. "Some people can receive it with rabbit ears, it depends where you are."

Schneider recommends indoor antennas only for customers within 25 miles of a station's broadcast tower.

An outdoor antenna will grab a signal from up to 70 miles away as long as no mountains are in the way, he said.

The Consumer Electronics Association has a Web site http://www.antennaweb.org/ that tells how far an address is from towers and recommends what type of antenna to use.

"When you're using an antenna to get an HD signal you will be able to receive true broadcast-quality HD," said Megan Pollock, spokeswoman for the group. "Some of the cable and satellite companies may choose to compress the HD signal."

Compression involves removing some data from the digital signal. This is done so that the providers will have enough room to send hundreds of other channels through the same cable line or satellite transmission.

The difference in picture quality is a matter of opinion, said Robert Mercer, spokesman for satellite provider DirecTV Inc.

"We believe the DirecTV HD signal is superior to any source, whether it's over-the-air or from your friendly neighborhood cable company," Mercer said.

Others disagree.

Self-described TV fanatic Kevin Holtz, of suburban Cleveland, chose an antenna because he didn't want to pay his satellite provider extra for local broadcast channels.

Holtz, 30, can't get the signal from one local network affiliate or a public broadcasting station but said the rest of the stations come in clearer than they would through satellite. He uses a $60 antenna for a 40-inch Sony LCD, which retails for about $3,000.

"Over-the-air everything is perfect," Holtz said.

Another downside to using just an antenna is that only local channels are available, meaning no ESPN, TNT, CNN or Discovery Channel. Some consumers partner an antenna with cable or satellite service.

Many people aren't aware that they can get HD over the airwaves, Wilson said. He estimates there are 10 million households with HDTVs and that fewer than 2 million of them use antennas. Including homes with analog sets, 15 million of the 110 million households in the United States use antennas.

HD antenna prices range from $20 to $150 for indoor and outdoor versions. The many models of available indoor antennas look more like a fleet of spaceships than the rabbit ears of old. Brand names include Terk, Philips, Audiovox, Jensen and Magnavox.

Those really interested in saving a buck and who have a little MacGyver in them could make their own antenna. Steve Mezick of Portland, Ore., created one out of cardboard and tinfoil.

"I decided to build it because the design looked exceedingly simple. I scrounged up stuff around the house and put one together," said Mezick, a bowling alley mechanic who repairs pin spotters.

The 30-year-old has since upgraded his original design using a wire baking sheet, clothes hanger and wood. He mounted it to the side of his house and gets all of his local stations.

"It works brilliantly," he said.

http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=260512&GT1=7703

Falcon_77

06-15-07, 11:18 AM

This was the article that re-kindled my interest in getting OTA reception again. I remember antennaweb.org was too busy to process my request that day.

On another note, the Silver Sensor antenna seems to be getting scarce around here. I bought 2 open boxes at Fry's over the past month. I think between Anaheim and FV, they only had 1 left after I bought my last one. Fry's needs a store in South O.C.!

I've been checking with Circuit City and they don't have them locally. I checked with the Santa Margarita store online and they now say that it is unavailable, even though it is listed as in-stock. It looks like the La Quinta store has at least one.

Considering how effective the Silver Sensor is for its size, every store that sells TV's should sell them. I'm tired of looking at those little "amplified" loop/rabbit ear antennas for ~$40. Don't tell me it is being discontinued? I gave away the ones I had but I will need at least 2 more to help out my parents.

csrini1

06-15-07, 06:04 PM

JamesAHall

06-15-07, 06:41 PM

danki6x

06-15-07, 06:56 PM

Falcon_77

06-15-07, 08:06 PM

try amazon.com, got the philips one for 23.99 add fillers for a dollar to get free shipping.

I guess I may have to get it online, unless I get lucky at Fry's (San Diego) on the way to my parent's house tomorrow. It is a bit late for me to be thinking of a last-minute gift...

Falcon_77

06-15-07, 08:18 PM

Question--I'm in a lower story apartment in Santa Monica where I can't mount an antenna on the roof. I do have a very small patio (facing South) where I currently have my DirecTV Satellite Dish. I was hoping to use an OTA antenna for HD stuff instead of upgrading my entire satellite system, but I'm thinking that any antenna small enough to position on my patio wouldn't be powerful enough to pick up the LA stations.

Am I better off just biting the bullet and going to HD over Satellite? I hate the thought of having to get a new DVR and new dish for this, as well as paying more a month. I only really want the HD to watch some sporting events and a few shows.

Suggestions? What is the range of the Phillips Silver Scanner talked about in the above post? Antennaweb.org says I'm about 28-29 miles from all the signals.

The view to the East (~ENE) is more important for Santa Monica. Do you have a decent view in that direction? Also, to properly determine what your options are, cross streets and/or a ZIP code are helpful.

As for the Silver Sensor's range, it all depends on the path to the towers. My cousin uses one in San Clemente at a range of 58 miles, but he has a clean LOS to Mt. Wilson. Range measurements seem to be more of an indicator of the relative gain of an antenna. Listing gain these days seems to be taboo or considered useless.

If the Silver Sensor used the CEA color code chart, I suppose it would be rated for up to the light green zone:

http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/hdtv-antenna-zones.php

raiser72

06-16-07, 02:42 AM

well my OnAir GT showed up today, got to playing with it a little, antenna still inside the house, NO AMP. From antennaweb I should be able to pull in the following:
Call Sign Channel Network

KOCE-DT 50.1 PBS
KDOC-DT 56.1 IND
KTLA-DT 5.1 CW
KAZA-DT 54.1 AZA
KPXN-DT 30.1 ION
KTBN-DT 23.1 TBN
KFTR-DT 46.1 TFA
KCOP-DT 13.1 MNT
KCET-DT 28.1 PBS
KMEX-DT 34.1 UNI
KABC-DT 7.1 ABC
KJLA-DT 57.1 IND
KCAL-DT 9.1 IND
KTTV-DT 11.1 FOX
KCBS-DT 2.1 CBS

Strangely, one of the strongest signals around 22dB is NBC at 4.1- not on the list.
I managed to synch 30 channels, many are multi-cast, hispanic, or asian. They drop regularly as my signal dB is low all around

I need to get this thing on the roof and maybe some amplification. I think I could cleanly pull in the 6 major networks (abc,nbc,cbs,fox,cw,pbs) and a few english language independents, then eliminate the foreign language stuff.

Falcon_77

06-16-07, 10:39 AM

Strangely, one of the strongest signals around 22dB is NBC at 4.1- not on the list.

Antennaweb tends to be very conservative. You may want to bump up the antenna height to 200' or so to see what that does.

Looking at the http://www.tvfool.com/ plot for the general area yields KNBC as your 2nd strongest L.A. station (after KTLA). Have you tried that site yet?

Still, both of these sites are guides only. There is no substitute for good 'ol trial and error.

Are the above results with the CM4228 looking through stucco or out of a window?

A good amplifier should help, wherever the antenna ends up. You may want to try a CM3042/3/4 from Fry's. These are 1, 2 & 4 set distribution amps (I am using the 2 set amp). If that does not do the trick, the CM7777 or others can be ordered online.

raiser72

06-17-07, 09:22 PM

On the strongest signals I get 19-25dB (NBC,CBS,Qubo,CW), on the weakest ones about 7-10dB (Fox,ABC). At 20dB I still get a frequent dropped video frames, but the audio is stable. The antenna is currently looking through 2 walls, 1 stucco. I am going to try and move it into my vaulted ceiling area where it would only pass 1 wall, which may not be stucco (gotta get on the roof and check). Then, if no luck, off to the roof it goes.

What model amps would I look for at the Shack? It's a lot closer than Fry's, especially factoring a possible return. I guess more research is required.

I read that a consistent 25dB signal is all that's needed, how high does it really need to be realistically?

JamesAHall

06-18-07, 12:26 PM

The view to the East (~ENE) is more important for Santa Monica. Do you have a decent view in that direction? Also, to properly determine what your options are, cross streets and/or a ZIP code are helpful.

As for the Silver Sensor's range, it all depends on the path to the towers. My cousin uses one in San Clemente at a range of 58 miles, but he has a clean LOS to Mt. Wilson. Range measurements seem to be more of an indicator of the relative gain of an antenna. Listing gain these days seems to be taboo or considered useless.

If the Silver Sensor used the CEA color code chart, I suppose it would be rated for up to the light green zone:

http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/hdtv-antenna-zones.php

I'm near Lincoln Blvd & Washington Ave, 90403.

I have a very clear view SE, and a somewhat clear view to the E, but NE is probably blocked by my own building since my patio faces SE.

raiser72

06-18-07, 04:17 PM

So I did a little reading, it appears that I need a strong signal from the antenna (I don't have), and then the amp (I also don't have) just lets me send it farther away down the cable. I plugged in a 50' RG6 and I couldn't get anything at all. So I guess if I go to the roof the amp will be a necessity due to the cable length being >20ft.

Anyone in S Orange County that actually enjoys poking holes in houses, wiggling large metal screens around, and more importantly drinking beer on the roof? I might need to do a beer and lame conversation exchange for some knowledgeable advice, or god forbid hire someone that knows more about this stuff.

thecrazykevy

06-18-07, 08:54 PM

It looks like FUNimation decided not to renew their contract to broadcast on 18.3 . It was fun while it lasted though.

ercjncpr

06-18-07, 09:27 PM

For what it's worth...

From Portola Pkwy at El Toro Rd Lake Forest(condo complex) I tried a 45 db Philips amplified indoor 'tenna.....got KNBC-DT and KTLA-DT and their subchannels and that was it!

kmillard92

06-19-07, 01:58 AM

Does anyone feel like the the quality on KABC's HD field cameras is less than average? I always see alot of color separation, etc. I cut them some slack, seeing as how it is transmitted via satellite live and all, but II think at least they could produce a nice, clear image.

narkspud

06-19-07, 01:20 PM

You sure those are HD field cameras? Most of their out-of-studio stuff is just standard definition widescreen.

kmillard92

06-19-07, 01:32 PM

Ohhhh...that explains it, then :) . I figured it was HD because it filled the screen and there were no bars on the sides like KCAL does for their out-of-studio cameras.

Thanks for explaining it.

Falcon_77

06-19-07, 03:22 PM

It looks like FUNimation decided not to renew their contract to broadcast on 18.3 . It was fun while it lasted though.

I've really been leaning into them about taking this off the air. I didn't know it was there until I set-up my Silver Sensor (before I got my current antenna). I was surprised and very pleased to find it. No sooner did I send KSCI a thank you note that they told me it was going off the air.

The Funimation Channel has moved to Verizon FIOS, which I don't have a prayer of getting in this Cox fortress (Ladera Ranch).

It makes me wonder about TV broadcasting in general. OTA DTV works so well, but companies can't seem to wait to sell out to cable companies. I suspect that Verizon wouldn't let them keep in OTA if they wanted to. I would like to learn more about the why's of TV broadcasting in general and why something that works so well OTA gets dumped for something that can only be received by very few. Well, it must be about $$$ right? heh

I have advised my friends to leave Funimation feedback on their web-site in addition to my long letters. I'm not very optimistic it will get back on the air, but at least it will let them know there is interest.

Falcon_77

06-19-07, 03:34 PM

Anyone in S Orange County that actually enjoys poking holes in houses, wiggling large metal screens around, and more importantly drinking beer on the roof? I might need to do a beer and lame conversation exchange for some knowledgeable advice, or god forbid hire someone that knows more about this stuff.

It would be nice if there were companies around that would install antennas. Perhaps there are some that will, a quick search yields this site:

http://www.homeblue.com/electrical-1-antenna.htm

but I don't know if there will be a local company available. I'm trying to remember the last time I saw advertising for antenna installation.

Falcon_77

06-19-07, 04:00 PM

I'm near Lincoln Blvd & Washington Ave, 90403.

I have a very clear view SE, and a somewhat clear view to the E, but NE is probably blocked by my own building since my patio faces SE.

It looks like Washington Ave. angles to the NE. If your porch sticks out enough to angle an antenna 10% to the right of a line parallel to Washington Ave., you may be in good shape.

If you have a compass, take a look at the heading 48 degrees magnetic.

The Silver Sensor is a good & cheap antenna to try your prospects with. However, they seem to be getting hard to find in local stores.

Falcon_77

06-19-07, 04:12 PM

From Portola Pkwy at El Toro Rd Lake Forest(condo complex) I tried a 45 db Philips amplified indoor 'tenna.....got KNBC-DT and KTLA-DT and their subchannels and that was it!

Sometimes I wonder why electronics stores sell antennae like this. 45db? It may as well be a can of snake oil. Heaven knows what the noise figure is like on that amp...

The loop/rabbit ear combos aren't high on my list. Sadly, they are the easiest to find and seem only to confirm what a consumer may expect... that cable/satellite is the only way to go... So sad. :(

raiser72

06-19-07, 07:07 PM

I'm trying to remember the last time I saw advertising for antenna installation.
Well I seem to recall just a week ago seeing $59 antenna install with purchase of antenna, unfortunately it wasn't from Fry's where I got my Antenna from. I think maybe it was Circuit City, or Lowes. Had I known about that install deal I most certainly would have purchased the antenna elswhere, even at a higher price.

benway

06-19-07, 10:10 PM

anyone else notice that KTLA 5 has been having audio sync issues for the last few days?

everybody loves raymond is off right now

any contact info for KTLA engineering?

I guess they don't live monitor their broadcast feed??

thanks

Falcon_77

06-20-07, 08:13 PM

Well I seem to recall just a week ago seeing $59 antenna install with purchase of antenna, unfortunately it wasn't from Fry's where I got my Antenna from. I think maybe it was Circuit City, or Lowes. Had I known about that install deal I most certainly would have purchased the antenna elswhere, even at a higher price.

I don't remember seeing the CM4228 carried by these stores. I don't think Circuit City carries any Channel Master antennas. The website produces no results and I haven't seen any there.

Lowe's appears to have some classic type Channel Master antennas, such as the CM3016, 3018 and 3020, but I don't know if they are available in my local store. I will check it out when I get a chance, but the CM4228 is not listed on their website.

Nightingale

06-25-07, 12:35 PM

I'm thinking of buying a new HD tv for my elderly relative in Southern California. Can anyone tell me what digital (English) channels are available in LA that are distinctly different in programing from there analog counterparts and tell me what these channels (if any) show (news, nature, infomercials?)? For example, in Minneapolis, the PBS HD station has different programming from the analog PBS station. I am refering to only off antenna programming. Many thanks.

narkspud

06-25-07, 01:59 PM

I suggest checking local listings, on a site like TitanTV. Generally speaking, there are
several extra PBS-type feeds (about half for children),
an Orange County History channel on KOCE,
a couple of weather channels,
"Raw News" from KNBC (quite worthless IMHO, YMMV),
KABC's "Plus" (reruns of newscasts, mostly),
The Tube (music videos),
LATV (Latin-American entertainment, but mostly in English)
and an awful lot of religion.

Did I miss any?

ercjncpr

06-25-07, 10:41 PM

SD73

06-26-07, 04:11 PM

PAX has some decent programming for family and health too.

blue_z

06-27-07, 03:41 AM

KOCE's OC History channel was replaced some time ago by an alternate PBS feed broadcast in HD

Hi there

Actually it's still being broadcast on 50.3.

Regards

Rick_R

06-27-07, 12:31 PM

For anyone that might be interested the KNBC audio problem I reported here on 5/31 was my problem. My audio receiver had the settings messed up by the person that watched my house while I was on vacation. Now fixed.

Rick R

ercjncpr

06-27-07, 10:37 PM

Hi there

Actually it's still being broadcast on 50.3.

Regards

OK , our cable system only carries 50 and 50.1... strange that KOCE's own website does not even list 50.3

holl_ands

07-06-07, 03:43 AM

benway

07-07-07, 10:14 PM

anyone know whats happened to 28.2? KCET

28.1 is fine but .2 has disappeared?

even 28.3 is there

thanks

raiser72

07-07-07, 10:58 PM

update to my saga. I had an antenna installer contact me, but he never showed up to do (or even quote) the work. Well then all hell broke loose, my HDTV died, then my Xbox 360 died, so I repaired the 360 myself, then my LCD projector died. ****!

So now I am left san anything that can accept an HD signal, and my antenna install has been put on hold. I am planning to order a new 16:9 720p LCD projector to replace BOTH of my failed HD devices. Unfortunately that's all I can afford right now. Hopefully once I have that in hand I can start looking at that damn CM4228 antenna install again.

edit: I guess technically my PC can accept HDTV with my OnAirGT, however that's not exactly optimal viewing size ;)

narkspud

07-08-07, 01:38 AM

That's quite a saga! What in the heck did you do to cause all that? Sing "Bringing In the Sheaves" backwards? Blaspheme against Allah? Try to play the bonus DVD that came with the Paris Hilton album?

RudyG

07-08-07, 10:06 AM

I've been using the (FREE!!!) RADIO-MOBILE Propagation Prediction Program for awhile
to calculate DTV receive signal levels for various Antenna & Preamp configurations.
Download and configuration info is included in the below zip file.

I've been "collecting" User Reception Reports posted here and on hdtv.forsandiego.com
in order to determine how well my DTV spreadsheet calculator predicts performance,
based on one (and only one) value calculated by R-M: "Path Loss".

I also compared to antennaweb.org predictions,
but as we all know, it has a serious under-prediction problem.

Lately, TVFool.com has provided an on-line Analog and DTV "performance prediction".
The below zipped spreadsheet calculator attempts to "calibrate" and compare
TVFool Path Loss predictions to those from Radio-Mobile.
For Line-Of-Sight paths, the calibration factor was fairly easy to find.
But some (which???) Diffraction Paths are not as well behaved:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10961464&#post10961464

================================
Consequently, detailed calculations have been performed for the following L.A. thread users:
Rudy_G (West L.A.), twelvepbrs (Canoga Park), ilopezc (SanJuanCap),
hdtvintheie (N. Fontana), Bri (my son in E. Murrieta), marcello696 (also E. Murrieta),
RedHawk (E. Temecula), Da_G (NE Riverside) and Andy (Tijuana).

These should be of interest to not only the above, but also to all thread users....
You might even want to do your own "what-if" exercises.....

I'll be posting additional discussion in the near future...

Hi holl_ands.

Wow. It will take me a while to wrap my head around this as I am an absolute beginner at this. And I'm sure many questions will follow in the weeks and months to come. :)
At the moment I have two. On the page where there is a graph, at the top it gives Rows as legends for the lines graphed. Which page do these row numbers come from? Page1 or Page2?
My second question is about Page2 (the DTV Calculations). Row 26 that says "ACTUAL RX QUALITY (Indoors)" has all question marks in it, which is kind of a shame since on Page1 it appears to be quite accurate in representing the actual reception I'm getting as opposed to the "predicted" reception that I'm supposed to be getting. Any idea why? Anything I can do to fix it?

Thanks.
Rudy

holl_ands

07-08-07, 02:25 PM

RudyG: Your first question seems to be re graph on "sheet 17".

The legend labels, e.g. "Lp(rm) for F(50,50)" correspond to the spreadsheet row
with same label, so look just below the "Presume Lsa" row.

"Lp(tf), TVFool Total Path Loss" is 4 rows further down.

"Free Space Loss" is at the bottom of page 2, "Lf, Path Loss if Free Space".

"Lp(rm) per R-M F(50,99)" is last row on page 3.
This demonstrates that R-M predicts very little difference between
signal levels found 50% of the time vs 99% of the time.
The first "50" indicates that these are "median" results, wherein 50% of "locations"
would have stronger and 50% would have weaker signals.
And "locations" are presumed to have 30-ft high outdoor antennas.
Which helps to explain why it's important to maintain 15-20 dB of "Fade Margin".

FYI: To find the source of chart data, you can right click, select "SOURCE DATA",
then "SERIES" tab and select the desired series. You can then click on
box to the right of the "X" and "Y" entry lines to display the entry data.

================================
I'm not quite sure what you're asking in the second question, so let me take a shot at it...

"ACTUAL RX QUALITY" summarizes how well YOU think the channels are being received,
based on what you posted in this forum (Mar 9)....which I have attempted to
translate into some resemblance of a NO/POOR/FAIR/GOOD/EXCL scale.

Obviously, I'm interested in whether I got it right, whether it truly correlates
to the R-M and TVFool predictions, more recent updates and results of changes.

Hopefully more users will contribute to trying to improve these predictions.

===============================
Question marks for KVMD-DT and KTBN-DT indicate you haven't told us how well you receive them.

Triple question marks a couple rows down ("Shud work a lot better] for
KNBC-DT, KCAL-DT, KOCE-DT and KCOP-DT indicate an apparent discrepancy
between the R-M predicted performance and actual performance.

The reason for the discrepancy could be due to underestimating
how much loss there is in your indoor location (but I assumed 20 dB!!!!).
Buildings between you and Mt Wilson may be increasing this.

Indoor locations are also plagued with multipath....the latest (2005+, "5th gen")
OTA tuners have made a dramatic improvement in handling these difficult conditions.
What are you using to receive OTA???

==================================
So what can you do about it????? Here's a short list of things to try:
You have no doubt already tried different locations with the Silver Sensor,
so it's time to try a "real" antenna, such as a 2-bay, 4-bay or even an 8-bay.
They each provide progressively more suppression of multipath interference.
And since location is the most important factor, try to get it as close to
Mt. Wilson as possible, through a window, on a patio...whatever....

After trying several antennas, I ended up with a CM-4228 8-Bay in an upstairs closet
due to my difficult multipath location.

When I lived in an apt. my favorite "indoor" antenna was the W-G PR4400, which is
less obtrusive, cuz it's just a "pile of sticks"....I hung one on a curtain rod...
and the ugly CM-4221 4-Bay hid behind a big chair in the living room.

Since there are no overload problems in your (indoor) location, you could
also try a Preamp....such as W-G HDP-269 or C-M model from Fry's or Lowes.
This should improve sensitivity, but only by a few dB for a short cable and a few
more if you end up with a long cable.

GeekGirl

07-08-07, 04:20 PM

holl_ands. FYI - I have comments, but posted them after yours in the "3D visualization (using Google Earth) of OTA transmitting locations!" thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10978922&&#post10978922. Consider starting a new thread for just this spreadsheet if you intend to break out of LA :). There are a number of people in the Google Earth Terrain thread that are interested modeling vs. reality, but not in your area. I'm over on the East coast, Philly thread.

Suggestion: Re-save your worksheet at Sheet 1. It may be confusing to some people who don't notice this and think that it opens on Sheet 1 (but it doesn't). You may want to add the sheet number to the tab, e.g. 'Sheet 21 - RudyG-1 in W LA'.

benway

07-08-07, 10:22 PM

Starting July 1st, the KCET lineup will air on KCET's digital spectrum. That means that your children's favorite programs, the news and public affairs programming (including The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer, Frontline and Bill Moyers Journal) and the KCET Saturday Night Movie will be seen at your favorite times on KCET-DT-where the KCET high-definition channel was seen. This means that the same lineup on our regular analog channel will be available in high definition in all the normal places you've been watching our high-definition channel, be it cable or off the air.

You'll enjoy the lineup of PBS programs shot in high definition 1080i at their regular times. (Programs that are not shot in HD format will appear on your HD sets with curtains.)

This change will allow us the extra bandwidth to bring you KCET's upcoming digital services. PBS World is anticipated as a mid-August launch, and KCET Orange will join the lineup this fall.

anyone know whats happened to 28.2? KCET

28.1 is fine but .2 has disappeared?

even 28.3 is there

thanks

narkspud

07-08-07, 11:32 PM

"Curtains" - I like that.

Another subchannel sucking bitrate away from the HD - I don't like that at all.

dotheDVDeed

07-09-07, 01:54 PM

This change will allow us the extra bandwidth to bring you KCET's upcoming digital services. PBS World is anticipated as a mid-August launch, and KCET Orange will join the lineup this fall.

I assume "KCET Orange" will be a direct competitor to KOCE.

More info here...

http://www.titanmag.com/2007/kcet/

TIM

narkspud

07-09-07, 02:38 PM

What's the latest on KOCE's status as a continuing PBS affiliate? Still waiting for the courts?

dotheDVDeed

07-10-07, 12:12 PM

From what I read at various spots on the web. They come to an out-of-court settlement with the religious programmer Daystar.

Everything's hush-hush and no one's allowed to speak, but wikipedia (okay not a completely reliable source) says that's Daystar will be getting one of the digital subchannels.

The main thing Daystar were gunning for was getting a must-carry channel for cable in the Los Angeles area.

TIM

smnavare

07-20-07, 01:21 PM

I am moving to burbank in a week and would like some advice regarding my options for local HD reception. here in CT, I have dish network and indoor antenna for locals. however as per antennaweb, my new address in burbank does not have any DTV signal and as per tvfool data most channels lie in the red zone (-90 to -110 dBm range) with 1 edge defraction. They recommend a high gain outdoor antenna. Any recommendations for a good antenna? Any experience from other people in burbank?
Thanks

Falcon_77

07-22-07, 08:37 PM

What part of Connecticut are you in? While on vacation, I tried out a pair of rabbit-ears in the Mystic area and was surprised by what I could get, especially after the sun went down and tropospheric enhancement and/or ducting took effect. I was able to get channels from NYC more easily than Hartford. I even picked up WVEC out of VA on one night.

Back to CA, an easy antenna to try if you are interested in UHF digital was the Silver Sensor. However, it seems to be getting very hard to find in local stores. If you have a Fry's close, it might be the best place to look for one.

I have similar signal strengths as reported by TVFool and am very happy with the Channel Master 4228. Fry's carries this as well, but the box can be a pain to deal with if you don't have a large vehicle. I was able to mount mine in the attic, with some doing.

The smaller Channel Master 4221 might work as well, but it is not as good for VHF reception, though that is not a concern for digital reception yet (it will be in 2009).

You will probably need a good pre-amp as well. Have you tried out the coverage map from TV Fool? Most of Burbank is in the Purple or Blue zones, due to the surrounding hills. If you can provide a ZIP code or major cross streets a more accurate determination of your prospects can be provided.

Does the new house have stucco? If so, it makes mounting an antenna more complicated.

Rick_R

07-23-07, 12:11 PM

If you are in Burbank near the hills the reception from Mt Wilson will require a top outdoor antenna. If you are in the flatland a set top antenna such as the Silver Sensor will do (Often available at Circuit City).

There was a thread several years ago started by a guy in the Burbank Hills that struggled to get digital reception.

Of course Dish Network has the L.A. network HD channels on satellite. However if you want KTLA 5, PBS 28, and channel 9 in HD you still need an antenna.

I live in a difficult OTA area in Simi Valley and I use the UHF/VHF Winegard 8200 paired with a UHF/VHF Winegard 8275 preamp. Many others recommend the 91GX or the Channel Master 4228.

Rick R

Falcon_77

07-23-07, 08:16 PM

dotheDVDeed

07-23-07, 10:03 PM

Sheesh, what a total botch job today on KNBC.

Instead of getting the HD NBC Nightly News we get the weather channel--and not for the Los Angeles area!

Finally they served up an SD version but every commercial break was a gamble whether the news would return.

TIM

twelvepbrs

07-24-07, 12:00 PM

Does anyone know when KCOP-13 will start broadcasting Angels games in HD? They have an HD signal, but the broadcast are in SD. I sent KCOP an e-mail last week, but have not received a response.

KCOP does have, however, an annoying pop when breaking for commercials.

The Dodgers HD broadcasts on KCAL-9 are putting the Angels broadcasts to shame.
Probably not anytime this season, I'm sure they would have to negotiate with the angels for that kind of thing, but at least goint to an angels game is more fun/cheaper/safer than a dodgers game! :p

thalaric

07-25-07, 09:23 PM

Falcon_77

07-26-07, 03:48 PM

I'm glad to see articles like this starting to be released:

Senators worried about TV 'train wreck' (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070726/ap_on_hi_te/digital_tv_4;_ylt=AmXMGn_V2NfeTDHB1blp07kE1vAI)

With the analog shut off less than 2 years off, people need to be aware of the change. To date, I have seen very little evidence that anything has been done to worn the general public.

It's easy to dismiss it and say "get cable" etc., but there are portions of the population that strongly resist cable/satellite service.

19% however, seems a bit high for OTA. I would guess that figure includes homes with both OTA and cable/sat? 11% is the number that I usually see for OTA.

Falcon_77

07-26-07, 03:54 PM

Hey all,

I'm located in the city of Santa Monica, on 10th St just off of Santa Monica Blvd. I hear that historically reception isn't too great in this neighborhood. I called up a local installer in the area and he thinks I'd have to "go pretty high" to get good signal. He suggested I get satellite. I'm not sure what the problem is, although using google earth I've noticed those huge buildings in Century City are between here and MT Wilson. Anyway, I'm not ready to give up so easily.

Any success stories getting decent reception in this area? What equipment I should try for best results? Would it be a better to install for size such as the Crossfire 3671, or is that overkill and do I need something more like a Winegard Ghost Killer?

Are you looking for analog as well as digital OTA?

Looking at the TV Fool coverage map, you should be in good shape with a much smaller antenna that the 3671. How far away are the huge buildings?

You may want to try a small indoor antenna at first to see what happens. If you have stucco, make sure to place it near a window, etc.

thalaric

07-27-07, 11:50 AM

Are you looking for analog as well as digital OTA?

Looking at the TV Fool coverage map, you should be in good shape with a much smaller antenna that the 3671. How far away are the huge buildings?

You may want to try a small indoor antenna at first to see what happens. If you have stucco, make sure to place it near a window, etc.

Yeah, I was going to try to receive VHF and UHF in case one or the other didn't come through well. Century city is about 7 miles away, although Santa Monica has some largish buildings of its own. I don't mind testing on a larger antenna. I'm in the red, so what is a good mid-sized antenna with a 25-35 mile range on it?

Rick_R

07-27-07, 12:17 PM

The L. A. Times also has an article in the business section today. It talks about increasing the money that is available to spread the word.

However, my opinion is that it is useless to spread the word now because the converter boxes and coupons will not be available until January of 2008. So spreading the word now is an exercise in frustration as there is nothing that a consumer can do about it yet.

Rick R

Falcon_77

07-28-07, 12:19 PM

There aren't all that many digital tuner boxes on the shelf right now, though I did pick one up for a friend at Circuit City (The Samsung HD Tuner - DTB-H260F). He's using it on his TV w/o a digital tuner with good success. The tuner on that box is certainly far better than the one on my Fusion USB tuner and seems to be at least on-par with the one on my '06 LCD TV.

I think it would help for more people to become aware of it now, to budget for a new TV or for a box if nothing else.

The UK is starting the transition later this year in a smaller area. However, they are allowing up to 5 more years in some areas to work out all the problems and roll it out gradually. Granted, the UK depends on OTA much more than we do (percentage-wise), but the net number of households may be relatively close.

I found this guide for the Whitehaven area that will be the UK's first to switch to all digital. I rather doubt we will be seeing something like this over here:

Whitehaven Digital Guide (http://www.whitehaven-news.co.uk/unknown/viewarticle.aspx?id=476208)

Do we really think we can do in one night what the UK is allotting 5 years for? It's going to be interesting.

Falcon_77

07-28-07, 12:32 PM

Yeah, I was going to try to receive VHF and UHF in case one or the other didn't come through well. Century city is about 7 miles away, although Santa Monica has some largish buildings of its own. I don't mind testing on a larger antenna. I'm in the red, so what is a good mid-sized antenna with a 25-35 mile range on it?

If you're looking for a classic VHF/UHF combo antenna for the right now, the Channel Master 3018 might be a good one to try. My local Fry's carries this one.

Channel Master 3018 (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm3018.html)

However, if you are more concerned about digital TV for the future, the CM4228 bow-tie should give you what you need. The shape of the CM4228 will be different than what you may be used to however. Perhaps the largest benefit of this antenna over similar ones from other makers is its gain on the VHF-High band:

Channel Master 4228 (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html)

However, it may take more doing if you have significant multi-path issues. It may be in your best interest to try a pair of rabbit-ears first and see how bad the ghosting is.

RSF_LA

07-30-07, 12:14 AM

Anyone else seeing KNBC-DT HD (4.1) way out of lip sync? The video is lagging the audio by several frames. This is on both network and local programming.

lucki4u

07-30-07, 12:35 AM

Does anyone know what receiver new customers are getting when they sign up for 1 hd receiver and 1 digital receiver?

I'm in the West la area and thinking of signing up in the next few days.

thanks.

bgooch

07-30-07, 01:49 AM

yes it has been all day :(

Rick_R

07-30-07, 12:45 PM

Do we really think we can do in one night what the UK is allotting 5 years for? It's going to be interesting.
Actually the U.S. adopted the ATSC digital transmission standaard in 1996 and began digital broadcasts in 1998. By 2009 it will be almost 13 years since the digital standard was adopted and almost 11 years since the digital broadcasts were available (or could have been available in the case of some TV stations).

Rick R

Falcon_77

07-31-07, 03:57 PM

Actually the U.S. adopted the ATSC digital transmission standaard in 1996 and began digital broadcasts in 1998. By 2009 it will be almost 13 years since the digital standard was adopted and almost 11 years since the digital broadcasts were available (or could have been available in the case of some TV stations).

Rick R

True enough, but the UK also started Digital Broadcasts (DTT) in 1998. Digital penetration of Freeview (OTA DTV) is much higher as well. 30% of main TV sets utilize Freeview and 25% of all sets.

I should have clarified that my concern is that they are allotting 5 years to turn off analog broadcasts, station-by-station. The following is a link to the analog shut-off date by station:

UK TV Stations - Analog shut-off dates (http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=532212)

It is of interest to note that each station has multiple repeaters, so there are far more towers involved, it's just that they are linked to the respective main stations.

Maybe I'm making a big deal out of nothing, but the US approach to the analog switch-off seems to be far more lackadaisical.

jdryyz

07-31-07, 11:30 PM

Yeah, so much for my ST:TOS recording I captured. Had to trash it due to this sync problem.

Anyone else seeing KNBC-DT HD (4.1) way out of lip sync? The video is lagging the audio by several frames. This is on both network and local programming.

Falcon_77

08-01-07, 11:29 AM

Is KCOP planning to upgrade their transmission tower? They have always been one of the more difficult stations for me to pick-up.

They have a CP-MOD filed with the FCC for 1000kW, but it seems like that has been up for a while. The current licensed power is only 371kW, which seems rather paltry for channel 66.

patlintwo

08-02-07, 02:41 AM

My signal strength for KCET-DT dropped from mid 90s to mid 70s tonight, while KLCS-DT and KOCE-DTs dropped to low 60s making them difficult to lock in. (I am in Pasadena with unobstructed view of Mt. Wilson.)

Has anyone else experienced this tonight? (It's happening with both my DISH Network HD receiver and my TV's ASTC tuner.)

Tony Nx

08-03-07, 06:25 PM

Educating the public is going to be hard, in as much as the retailers all want OTA to go away. I have had several retail salespersons tell me their company is teaching them to tell people that there will be no OTA whatsoever after 2/09, so as to get more commissions on Sat. or cable sign-ups!

Also there seems to be a social stigma against having an antenna on your roof, as if you would be telling your neighbors you are too poor to afford cable or satellite.

As I stand on Mt. Wilson I can see with my eyeballs about 90% of the homes in the LA area.
All of them could be getting Digital and HDTV for free with an antenna, many if not most, with an indoor antenna.

By the way, HD programs look great on even standard TVs in comparison to the Analog sigs.
(except for the reprehensible lip-sync problem)

arbie

08-08-07, 02:59 PM

For those that don't read hdtv.forsandiego.com. Andy wrote the following:

FCC release final digital channel assignment list for 2009

News release: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-275789A1.pdf

Channel list PDF: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-138A2.pdf

Channel list Excel:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-138A2.xls

Summary for San Diego:

Call Sign, Network, Channel, ERP kW

KFMB, CBS, 8 , 14.9
KGTV, ABC, 10, 11
KUSI, IND, 18, 355
KSWB, CW, 19, 323
KPBS, PBS, 30, 350
KNSD, NBC, 40, 370

Summary for Los Angeles:

Call Sign, Network, Channel, ERP kW

KABC, ABC, 7, 11.2
KCAL, IND, 9, 12
KTTV, FOX, 11, 40.2
KCOP, UPN, 13, 14.1
KSCI, IND, 18, 111
KTBN, TBN, 23, 50
KCET, PBS, 28, 107
KFTR, Telefutura, 29, 400
KTLA, CW, 31, 1000
KDOC, IND, 32, 1000
KMEX, Univision, 34, 392
KNBC, NBC, 36, 711
KPXN, IND, 38, 1000
KVEA, Telemundo, 39, 54
KLCS, PBS, 41, 162
KWHY, IND, 42, 486
KCBS, CBS, 43, 300
KRCA, IND, 45, 670
KAZA, Azteca, 47, 350
KOCE, PBS, 48, 1000
KJLA, IND, 49, 1000

I think the only new info was that KRCA finally got an assignment in the 2-51 core. Also, the FCC's full list includes an interesting "% Interference Received".

Falcon_77

08-10-07, 03:26 PM

Also there seems to be a social stigma against having an antenna on your roof, as if you would be telling your neighbors you are too poor to afford cable or satellite.

As I stand on Mt. Wilson I can see with my eyeballs about 90% of the homes in the LA area.
All of them could be getting Digital and HDTV for free with an antenna, many if not most, with an indoor antenna.

LA has to be one of the best sites in the world for DTT/OTA and yet, as you have noted, putting up an antenna is clearly frowned upon.

Maybe if I vertically polarize my Silver Sensor, strap it to a wall outside and call it a cell phone enhancer, people will think it's cool. ;)

As it is, having an antenna is viewed like taking the bus...

I am not among the 90% you can see, but I do just fine with my attic antenna and so does a nearby friend who is even more affected by hills.

Falcon_77

08-10-07, 03:35 PM

Channel list Excel:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-138A2.xls

KCET, PBS, 28, 107

Thanks for the info.

I am a bit surprised to see KCET cut their power. Granted, 28 is a lower frequency than 59, but going from 340 kW to 107 kW doesn't make sense to me.

At least we won't need the largest combo antennas in these parts anymore. I'm looking forward to 7-51 tuned designs, but am glad to get buy with UHF only antennas, which is far more possible for VHF-HI.

holl_ands

08-10-07, 06:41 PM

Also there seems to be a social stigma against having an antenna on your roof, as if you would be telling your neighbors you are too poor to afford cable or satellite.

Without commenting re what your neighbors may think about your insecurities,
why not just tell them you need OTA cuz Cable and Sat systems don't carry
some of the best channels (e.g. PBS-HD, KCAL-HD, MyNtwk-HD, TheTube, Funimation,
PBS-Kidz, PBS-Create, and DIGITAL versions of Spanish and religious channels.)

Many HD-SAT viewers must use an OTA antenna, so it's ACTUALLY a sign
of a well-equipped watcher....

A C-Band dish in the backyard may either drive this point home....
or make it clear you're still living in the 80's.....

If you still worry, put an antenna in the attic...
[CM-4228 works just fine 70 miles out, beyond Murietta.]

rotaryland

08-15-07, 09:29 PM

DSperber

08-15-07, 09:48 PM

hey guys, i barely bought a tv with that atsc tuner inside. Can i buy any antenna and get digital channels?Yes.

or do i have to pay a cable company or something.No. If your TV has an ATSC tuner in it then all you need is an antenna capable of picking up the digital OTA channels that you can receive in your area. You didn't mention where you live, but most of the metropolitan LA area is able to receive virtually all of the local networks (with exceptions, of course).

Any recommendations on indoor antennas if i can get channels off air?I recently bought an RCA AND525 indoor amplified HDTV antenna, for use with a new HD TV card (ATI TV Wonder 650 PCI) that I put in my PC. The antenna has a dial which can boost the signal up to 45db, for areas that need it.

Here in the Marina, with this indoor antenna in my loft office where the computer is, I am able to get ALL of the primary LA digital channels: 2.1, 4.1, 5.1, 7.1, 9.1, 11.1, 13.1, 28.1, 50.1 and 58.1. I also pick up all of the non-primary digital sub-channels (although I don't look at them), as well as all of the other foreign language and non-major UHF channels which are now broadcasting in digital.

Interestingly, my building's roof antenna is very good but I don't get anywhere near this kind of reception off of that antenna feed into my unit (and going to my digital TV which also has an ATSC tuner). I am simply amazed at what this little RCA AND525 antenna can bring in.

I recommend it HIGHLY! RCA AND525. I got mine at Fry's for about $33.

RudyG

08-16-07, 12:20 PM

.......
I recommend it HIGHLY! RCA AND525. I got mine at Fry's for about $33.
A few of questions:
Are you having to adjust gain for each channel?
Did you have to play a lot with how big or wide you make the ears and which way you turn the antenna before you got the signal you wanted?
Do you ever have drop outs, especially during the day hours, when the signal appears to be the weakest?

Thanks.
Rudy

Falcon_77

08-16-07, 03:29 PM

RudyG

08-16-07, 07:11 PM

If you have a clear line of sight to Mt. Wilson, even the most basic of antennas may be able to do the job.

At my office in Irvine, I'm doing very well with a $10 rabbit ear/loop (un-amplified) combo from Target. I get all the local DT channels, except for KCOP.

I have yet to pull in KCOP without an Amp except on my CM4228 at home and only with a very good tuner (and even then its spotty). With an amp it is ok.

If you can provide your Zip code, it will help us to determine your prospects for reception.
Thanks Falcon, I've actually done one better. :) I've posted my Lattitude and Logitude in the past. :) See my post here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9941600#post9941600)
But was specifically curious about this particular antenna. I get occasional drop outs with my Silver Sensor and was curious to see if there is something better.
Of course, Fry's had CM4228 for $50 this Sunday through Tuesday. But I don't have access to my roof, so grudgingly I had to pass. :(

Thanks.
Rudy

DSperber

08-16-07, 08:50 PM

A few of questions:
Are you having to adjust gain for each channel?No, I just dialed it up to max and leave it there. I don't know if I really need 45db of gain but it doesn't hurt... at least on the full set of primary LA-area OTA network digital channels 2.1 - 13.1 and 28.1 that I'm concerned with.

Did you have to play a lot with how big or wide you make the ears and which way you turn the antenna before you got the signal you wanted?I don't have the ears extended at all. They're still in their full compressed state. IN fact, I have them lying down horizontally, used as "spacers" against the back of the cabinet shelf on which it sits, so that hopefully the antenna alignment will not change or so that I can put it back where it was if it's somehow bumped.

Only the circular loop UHF antenna was adjusted a bit from the vertical, and was rotated a bit to get maximum signal strength (as shown by the PC TV software auto-scanning digital channels). There was essentially zero setup (namely just connecting the 6' RF cable to the RF connector on the PC TV card) and then playing a little bit with the UHF loop, resulting in essentially 100% signal strength on all channels.

I do not watch OTA SD analog channels on my PC, so I don't need the VHF rabbit ears extended on the antenna. I watch SD via D*-provided S-video into my PC TV card, and HD via this RCA AND525 antenna feeding the ATSC tuner in the PC TV card.

Do you ever have drop outs, especially during the day hours, when the signal appears to be the weakest?Not that I have seen.

Again... works perfectly.

RudyG

08-17-07, 12:59 AM

No, I just dialed it up to max and leave it there. I don't know if I really need 45db of gain but it doesn't hurt... at least on the full set of primary LA-area OTA network digital channels 2.1 - 13.1 and 28.1 that I'm concerned with.

I don't have the ears extended at all. They're still in their full compressed state. IN fact, I have them lying down horizontally, used as "spacers" against the back of the cabinet shelf on which it sits, so that hopefully the antenna alignment will not change or so that I can put it back where it was if it's somehow bumped.

Only the circular loop UHF antenna was adjusted a bit from the vertical, and was rotated a bit to get maximum signal strength (as shown by the PC TV software auto-scanning digital channels). There was essentially zero setup (namely just connecting the 6' RF cable to the RF connector on the PC TV card) and then playing a little bit with the UHF loop, resulting in essentially 100% signal strength on all channels.

I do not watch OTA SD analog channels on my PC, so I don't need the VHF rabbit ears extended on the antenna. I watch SD via D*-provided S-video into my PC TV card, and HD via this RCA AND525 antenna feeding the ATSC tuner in the PC TV card.

Not that I have seen.

Again... works perfectly.
Wow thanks for the feedback. I'm going to have to give it a try. And maybe feed some new data to holl_ands.

I wish you had been an owner of a Silver Sensor in the past so that you could compare the reception between the two for your particular location.

Thanks.
Rudy

DSperber

08-17-07, 06:44 AM

I wish you had been an owner of a Silver Sensor in the past so that you could compare the reception between the two for your particular location.Well in this new digital channel world, other than for just-marginal signal strength situations where you genuinely may or may not be just over the threshhold for tuner-lock, there's really no difference in a 60% signal strength or 100% signal strength... if 50% is the threshhold for tuner lock. Once you're there, you're there. There can be no better reception than "you're there".

So given that this little RCA AND525 dialed up to 45db gain gives my ATI TV Wonder 650 PCI card's ATSC tuner ALL of the OTA digital channels in the LA area, it wouldn't matter to me if I had a 100' tower/boom antenna... I wouldn't get any better reception than I already do, namely every channel already coming in with digital perfection.

Now if I lived 50 miles away, where reception might be marginal, a larger or higher antenna might do a better job. But here in the Marina it does appear that this small indoor amplified antenna is perfectly adequate.

ercjncpr

08-17-07, 10:35 AM

holl_ands

08-17-07, 03:27 PM

hey guys, i barely bought a tv with that atsc tuner inside. Can i buy any antenna and get digital channels? or do i have to pay a cable company or something. Any recommendations on indoor antennas if i can get channels off air?
You didn't tell us where you are located (zipcode, nearest cross streets) and whether you are
in a (well shielded) downstairs apartment, two-story house with an attic, etc.

Falcon_77

08-17-07, 03:46 PM

I should have made it clear that I was responding to rotaryland. ;)

As for that RCA AND525, if it works it's good, but I would find it hard to believe that it could one-up a Silver Sensor (both un-amped that is). Considering that the best Pre-Amps have around 26dB gain, 45dB just doesn't seem realistic. Gain figures w/o noise figure specs, is of limited value.

I'm getting 100% on many channels here at the office w/o any gain, off of just a loop. We can debate which is better, but the only thing that matters is finding something that works for you. :)

I may try that RCA just to test it against my spare Silver Sensor.

BTW, the Silver Sensor looks pretty neat in the vertically polarized position. Of course the signal strength takes a steep dive. Just watch the back piece if pulling it apart. I had to buy a soldering iron to fix one already. :(

Sergio

08-21-07, 01:13 AM

ucladave

08-21-07, 05:48 PM

Hi there everyone,

I am a total Noob coming into the HD era here. Ive just recently gotten a nice samsung DLP TV, and am looking to add HD to it. I am not however, excited about paying tons of money for DirecTV etc.

I am in the west LA/Santa Monica area on the top floor of a 4 story building. My line of sight to griffith park is unobstructed (And I think on the same line as wilson). I really only watch prime time network shows, and I am looking to get a cheap antenna system for my roof. The cables are already prestrung out to the roof, so the only thing that needs to be done is the antenna put up.

Questions:

1) What might be a good cheap ($100 or so) antenna to put up that will receive ALL the local over the air broadcasts (both HD and regular including PBS)? I contacted an installer who recommended a winegaurd but it was outrageous! ($420 installed) I have really unlimited space to work with, but of course smaller antenna would be better.

2) Is this something I can install myself being a how-to moron? The cables are already strung up to the roof for direcTV, and I would just have to mount the antenna to the side of the chimney or flat on the roof. If there is a service that would do the whole thing for a reasonable cost Id be game also.

csrini1

08-21-07, 07:31 PM

Falcon_77

08-22-07, 08:17 AM

I live in Los Feliz (90027), and am looking for a good solution to get OTA HD channels. From searching and reading parts of the thread, others have had difficulty getting reception in the Los Feliz area. I am wondering if anyone else lives nearby that could offer their solutions, or if not, what are my options in general?

There are some weak spots in the area. You may want to try a low cost antenna at first to see what you get. A basic $10 RCA loop/rabbit ear combo would be good for test purposes.

What do you have for a digital tuner?

If you can provide your cross streets, we can provide a better estimate of your chances. If you have a clear view to the East-Northeast, they should be good.

Sergio

08-22-07, 05:37 PM

There are some weak spots in the area. You may want to try a low cost antenna at first to see what you get. A basic $10 RCA loop/rabbit ear combo would be good for test purposes.

What do you have for a digital tuner?

If you can provide your cross streets, we can provide a better estimate of your chances. If you have a clear view to the East-Northeast, they should be good.

My digital tuner is basically the internal tuner in my television, a Sony KDF-E42A10.

My cross streets are: Wood Terrace and Griffith Park Boulevard.

Falcon_77

08-22-07, 08:59 PM

If your view to the East is good and if you can give the antenna a clear line of site to Mt. Wilson (e.g. near a window), then you should be good with something basic. If your house doesn't have stucco, you may not need a window view.

A ~$10 RCA antenna (Rabbit Ear/Loop Combo) may be enough. If not, a Silver Sensor (online) should do the trick.

RDK006

08-23-07, 02:38 PM

I live in Los Feliz (90027), and am looking for a good solution to get OTA HD channels. From searching and reading parts of the thread, others have had difficulty getting reception in the Los Feliz area. I am wondering if anyone else lives nearby that could offer their solutions, or if not, what are my options in general?

What others have said: try a simply UHF antenna first. I seem to live not far from you, but I have a straight shot at Mt. Wilson from my window, so reception is great where I am with a cheap antenna. OTA HD is wonderful to behold; beats my DISH signal.

twelvepbrs

08-25-07, 11:09 PM

anyone else have audio problems for the SD/AZ NFL-Preseason game? sounds like the audio is clipping

Falcon_77

08-28-07, 03:45 PM

I had problems with that game as well. I think it was a problem with their feed.

twelvepbrs

08-28-07, 05:59 PM

I had problems with that game as well. I think it was a problem with their feed.
I sent an email to CBS's and at the end I called them "lazy bums" I got an email back stating that they were "not lazy bums"
Considering that this was going out to half of the country would it have been that hard for them to pay some schmuck minimum wage to watch the OTA broadcast and make sure there aren't any tech issues?

BTW: I replied with "I guess the customer isn't always right at CBS"

bgooch

08-28-07, 06:16 PM

The problem during the SD/AZ NFL-Preseason game was at the very least annoying and I found to be distracting.

While KCBS did carry this preseason game it was actually produced by KFMB the San Diego CBS affiliate and not a CBS Sports presentation.

wasn't this the first Charger telecast produced by a local station in HD? if so they deserve credit for that.

ucladave

09-01-07, 06:09 PM

Ok, antennaweb is telling me that for most of the channels here I need a "red" antenna - medium directional. I live in an condo building, but do have roof access to mount something. In fact, there is directv on top of my unit with three 75ohm cables coming down and into my unit - a double set for Tivo and a single strand for the bedroom.

Ideally, I would love to cancel directv, stick up a roof antenna and just connect it directly to two of the cables using a splitter.

Questions:

1) would a splitter ruin the signal strength?

2) I would like to get the smallest possible antenna that meets these conditions. An earlier recommendation was the channel master 4228, but that seems rather large at 40" square. I had my eye on the TERK HD-TVS Slim Profile Outdoor HDtv Antenna which seems smaller and comes with a roof mount bracket already. I cant find any info about if its the right "color" though etc. Would love some help here guys!

Falcon_77

09-02-07, 10:58 AM

Antennaweb tends to be very conservative with its estimates. Where I'm at many stations that I get just fine didn't show up at all. If you can provide your Zip code, we can check our sources, such as TV Fool.

Instead of the Terk, if you are looking for something small, a 2-bay or 4-bay bowtie, may be good enough, such as:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB2.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html

The 8 bay CM4228 is popular not just for it's great UHF capabilities, but that it also works well for High VHF.

Does anyone know if this Terk "Square Shooter" is like the Winegard in that the VHF part is vertically polarized? In any event, I would not recommend the Terk. Getting VHF out of any small antenna is a challenge.

As for the splitter, if the signal strength is too weak, you would want to put up a mast-mounted pre-amp before it.

Falcon_77

09-06-07, 11:12 AM

danki6x

09-06-07, 05:37 PM

KOCE has announced that 50.2 will be used for a local OC Channel, which will feature traffic, weather and news for Orange County:

http://www.ocregister.com/money/channel-koce-orange-1839790-county-news

Orange County must be one of the few 3+ million areas in the country that does not have any local news to speak of right now (at least not on TV).

Sometimes I wonder why there are no TV towers on Saddleback Mountain, though there is clearly something up there.
I saw that story too and noticed that the video will be regular KOCE with the OC traffic cam videos, OC weather and OC news ticker on the sides.
Dan

mkpl

09-07-07, 12:23 AM

KOCE has announced that 50.2 will be used for a local OC Channel, which will feature traffic, weather and news for Orange County:

http://www.ocregister.com/money/channel-koce-orange-1839790-county-news

Orange County must be one of the few 3+ million areas in the country that does not have any local news to speak of right now (at least not on TV).

Sometimes I wonder why there are no TV towers on Saddleback Mountain, though there is clearly something up there.

My guess is because most antennas in the LA/OC area are pointed at Mt Wilson.

50-2 has been the digital SD broadcast of their analog channel, with 50-1 a differently programmed HD channel. I wonder if they are going to do like KCET and broadcast their normal schedule over the HD channel.

ercjncpr

09-07-07, 07:49 AM

Saddleback Mountain is home to various utility communications links , plus Amateur Radio repeaters

arbie

09-10-07, 02:28 AM

narkspud

09-10-07, 09:41 AM

Speaking of local news in Orange County, KDOC's "Daybreak OC" started this morning, and surprise! It's in HD. KDOC now has 56-1 at 720p and 56-2 apparently duplicating their analog broadcast at 480i.

They are having oodles of technical problems, and the lighting, audio, and camera work are horrendous. Nevertheless, they are up and running with an OC newscast.

Falcon_77

09-10-07, 10:47 AM

Thank you for the info.

I wonder if KDOC will be showing any Ducks games in HD?

This brings up the number of local HD OTA channels to 10.

RudyG

09-10-07, 02:11 PM

Several colleagues complained that they are having trouble or can no longer receive KLCS-DT. KLCS-DT is licensed for 168 kW ERP,
and, while they have a construction permit on file with the FCC for 90 kW ERP, I would assume that they are running at their full
licensed power by now.

I looked at their signal this evening, and KLCS-DT is weaker than the two lowest power DTV stations in LA, KTBN-DT and KVEA-DT:

- Ch, Station, ERP (kW), SNR (dB)
- 23, KTBN-DT, 50, 20.4
- 39, KVEA-DT, 54, 24.8
- 41, KLCS-DT, 168, 15.8

Not surprisingly, I'm seeing transport stream continuity errors on KLCS-DT since their signal is now near my lower threshold.

I didn't find anything on the KLCS WWW site suggesting transmitter/antenna problems with their digital signal.

rb

Hey arbie.

Did the problems start over the weekend for you as well? I watch KLCS all the time because they carry the Create network, and it has been rock solid until this past weekend when the signal had completely disappeared. I also went to their website and found nothing. So I repointed my antenna a bit more due west and the channels came in but there are lots of drop outs, whereas before I had no such problems. :(
Bummer I hope these problems go away.

Rudy

MDRLou

09-10-07, 03:34 PM

I haven't been able to get any of the the KLCS-DT stations. Saturday was the first I noticed the problem. It is nice to see KDOC has joined the HD stations

Falcon_77

09-10-07, 07:16 PM

I checked KLCS at lunch here in Irvine and it was fine (93%, 26.3dB). I will check it at home to see what is happening there, but off-hand, I hadn't noticed any problems over the weekend.

hdtval21

09-10-07, 11:58 PM

Has anyone been noticing a lower volume on NBC?

narkspud

09-11-07, 12:01 AM

Not as low as KDOC, but yeah. It seems to be lower on the network stuff than on local programming.

How hard can this digital broadcasting be anyway? Sheesh.

RudyG

09-11-07, 12:13 AM

Now does KDOC have no HD programming, or is it me? Interesting how KLCS has a slew of HD programming yet only transmits 480i signal and KDOC decided to transmit in 720p without any previous HD programming available. Not that I'm complaining. I'm happy they went 720p. :)

As a side note on 720p. I'm sure I'm imagining this but it seems like the really fast motion in 720p is rendered just a hair smoother than on 1080i. Without any noticeable image quality difference between 720p and 1080i.
Anyway, this could just be me.

Rudy

Falcon_77

09-11-07, 10:32 AM

It would be nice if KLCS could have an HD channel, but with 3 sub-channels, is it feasible?

KLCS came in ok at home (Ladera Ranch), with 92% strength and a 29dB SNR. Perhaps there is a problem in their radiation pattern, especially since their main direction is towards the East:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=41475&rotate=0.00&p0=0.429&p10=0.425&p20=0.498&p30=0.645&p40=0.786&p50=0.876&p60=0.921&p70=0.953&p80=0.983&p90=1.000&p100=0.979&p110=0.919&p120=0.825&p130=0.719&p140=0.632&p150=0.586&p160=0.559&p170=0.519&p180=0.459&p190=0.397&p200=0.363&p210=0.359&p220=0.373&p230=0.388&p240=0.401&p250=0.410&p260=0.419&p270=0.434&p280=0.453&p290=0.473&p300=0.469&p310=0.427&p320=0.367&p330=0.347&p340=0.387&p350=0.427&p360=0.429&

I am also watching KDOC's Daybreak OC as I type this. It doesn't feel necessarily like HD with that L format and they have had some problems today, but it's still nice to have.

narkspud

09-11-07, 11:36 AM

"Some problems"? Their SD subchannel had no picture, their analog had the widescreen format video in an anamorphic squeeze with audio out of sync by several seconds, and their HD was working, but it took them several minutes to notice, so we were treated to an extended view of the anchor just sitting there waiting. And that's just in the few minutes at a time that I was checking in on them while I got ready for work. That newscast is a fiasco of epic proportions, and if I were them I'd run paid programs in that slot for a few more days while they get the bugs worked out of their systems. They clearly don't have sufficient staff to deal with the problems while on the air live.

KCET had 3 SD subchannels with their HD main channel for a while in there (before they shut off KCET-DT2). It looked pretty bad, but they were doing it.

RudyG

09-11-07, 03:42 PM

Falcon_77

09-11-07, 03:58 PM

I watched it from about 6am to 6:30am and then a bit more after I got into work ~7:30-8. The HD picture was blank for a minute or two at first, with full screen snow at other times. I didn't see the anchor sitting there for several minutes, so maybe I was spared the worst of it.

As for sub-channels, is 4 the maximum number or can they just add more and more until we are left looking at dial-up video? ;)

narkspud

09-11-07, 04:35 PM

I keep hearing that 6 different streams is the limit. KTBN has 5 (SD) now, and they don't look too horrible. (Well, the Spanish one does, but it's obviously due to the quality of the source material.)

DSperber

09-11-07, 04:58 PM

Has anyone been noticing a lower volume on NBC?KNBC-DT (and SD, for that matter) has been consistently at just about the lowest volume level of all the local LA networks for years. First time was back in 2004 during the Athens Olympics when the first-time DD5.1 sound was horribly low.

There have have been numerous discussions (and complaints) about this for a long time. Lots of explanations regarding "dialnorm" values, Dolby settings, etc., but it all comes down to what KNBC-DT has decided should be their audio level.

I am with you in your unhappiness on the annoying steps required to compensate in our home systems for what certainly appears to be a too-low audio level on channel 4, but it does appear we're not going to make a breakthrough in getting KNBC-DT to change their position.

danki6x

09-11-07, 06:40 PM

As a side note on 720p. I'm sure I'm imagining this but it seems like the really fast motion in 720p is rendered just a hair smoother than on 1080i. Without any noticeable image quality difference between 720p and 1080i.
Anyway, this could just be me.

Rudy

This should be the case. 720p being progressive "paints" all the lines in one pass. 1080i being interlaced "paints" every other line every pass. So, fast motion is constantly updated at 720p, but every other line is "stale" or on the previous frame on 1080i. You will notice that most sports related channels (ESPN, Fox, etc.) use 720p I suspect on purpose.
Dan

Falcon_77

09-13-07, 10:37 AM

KLCS confirmed this morning by a ticker on their broadcast that their tower was damaged by an apparent lightning strike and that they are working on fixing it.

Their website confirms this, although it says "analog" here:

http://www.klcs.org/

My signal doesn't seem to have been affected at all (it is still ok). This suggests that the tower has multiple antennas sending out the signal. I would assume that a multiple broadcast antenna approach is typical, but would be interested in learning more about how signals are generated from the source.

narkspud

09-14-07, 10:17 AM

This brings up the number of local HD OTA channels to 10.

Correction: 11.

KVEA, channel 52 (Telemundo), is in 1080i this morning, with standard def on 52-2. They're the first Spanish-language broadcaster to take the plunge.

No idea what they're planning to do with it. At the moment they are running an upscaled standard-def morning show on it.

WeHoMyke

09-14-07, 11:56 PM

Correction: 11.

KVEA, channel 52 (Telemundo), is in 1080i this morning, with standard def on 52-2. They're the first Spanish-language broadcaster to take the plunge.

No idea what they're planning to do with it. At the moment they are running an upscaled standard-def morning show on it.

If you remember your high school spanish lessons:eek:, you might want to try to read this link. (http://www.telemundo52.com/noticias/14091913/detail.html)

Pretty much it says starting tomorrow (Saturday 9/15) they will be the first full power Spanish language station to broadcast in HD or Alta Definición . Starting with their newscasts and some network programing. Mexican Independence Day is 9/16 and they want to be the first station to broadcast the celebration in Alta Definición.

narkspud

09-15-07, 10:02 AM

Yo no recall-o high-escuella e-spaniel nada. Thanks for the info.

Add Kid

09-16-07, 09:35 PM

Anyone else having trouble with the Pats-Chargers game in HD? (NBC 4-1) It seemed to have taken a dump halfway through the second quarter.

bgooch

09-17-07, 12:08 AM

KNBC 4-1 PQ good in Echo Park during 2nd half of SNF

dj4monie

09-17-07, 03:21 PM

Anyone else having trouble with the Pats-Chargers game in HD? (NBC 4-1) It seemed to have taken a dump halfway through the second quarter.

PQ was great, but I noticed a problem with all KNBC HD, it makes my system studder/clip during payback live or recorded. On ABC HD the day before I watched the entire USC vs Neb game and it didn't clip once.

My guess is that 1080i is harder on my system than 720p.

I tested my system on 720p before I installed all the currrent hardware, so that might explain it.

Back on topic -

I didn't notice any problems with NBC's broadcast....

csrini1

09-17-07, 03:44 PM

PQ was great, but I noticed a problem with all KNBC HD, it makes my system studder/clip during payback live or recorded. On ABC HD the day before I watched the entire USC vs Neb game and it didn't clip once.

My guess is that 1080i is harder on my system than 720p.

I tested my system on 720p before I installed all the currrent hardware, so that might explain it.

Back on topic -

I didn't notice any problems with NBC's broadcast....

I didn't notice any problems either...

twelvepbrs

09-17-07, 08:23 PM

Anyone else having trouble with the Pats-Chargers game in HD? (NBC 4-1) It seemed to have taken a dump halfway through the second quarter.
The program dumped? or the Chargers dumped? ;)
but seriously, it worked fine for me, although I can't remember for sure if I was watching it OTA or through D* feed, but I'm sure at some point it was OTA since once the game becamse a non-contest I flipped back and forth to the simpsons

Ron_Mexico81

09-17-07, 11:11 PM

Good Picture Quality in todays Angels game.

TWC -Chatsworth

Add Kid

09-18-07, 03:12 AM

That's odd. The next day the picture came in fine (it's still fine) and I did not touch the antenna. I have a small indoor RCA antenna and had to spend time putting it in just the right position in order to pick up 2-1 through 11-1. Is it possible someone in my apt complex moved something and blocked the signal?

I only watch the HD channels on the weekend so maybe the signal has been intermittent the whole time? I'm in Burbank.

Yeah, the Chargers sure took a dump last night >:( I would have won my pool if they won.

jimcrow21

09-18-07, 04:55 AM

narkspud

09-18-07, 09:27 AM

I watched Evel Keneval get baptized in HD

And meanwhile children are starving in Africa . . . . . . :mad:

mikemikeb

09-18-07, 10:19 AM

....and I wonder how expensive the Schuller's cars are? :eek::rolleyes::(

dlt21

09-18-07, 07:24 PM

Any update on when KNBC will have local news in HD? Even the local affiliate in Syracuse is in HD!!!

hdtval21

09-19-07, 01:17 AM

limacharliewhisk

09-19-07, 01:34 PM

So can I assume that you guys don't think NBC's volume is any lower than previously? I know NBC was slightly lower than the others, but I don't recall it being this low. I contacted KNBC but haven't gotten a reply back yet. I don't want to have to get my ears blasted by the commercials because I have to set the volume higher than previously.
NBC, ABC, & Fox volume levels all seem pretty close to me, with NBC being just a little bit lower, probably the lowest of the bunch, but not by a significant amount.

CBS is the one that seems much louder, and my speakers are blasting whenever I switch channels to it.

WeHoMyke

09-19-07, 11:07 PM

Any update on when KNBC will have local news in HD? Even the local affiliate in Syracuse is in HD!!!

I emailed KNBC and got this response on 8/28:

Thanks for the question. We hope to be in high definition by the end of the year. We opted to do a digital makeover first, which in the long run should pay off with higher production values. Our sister stations, KVEA/KWHY, will be rolling out high def over the next two months, and our more complex system will go on line right behind them.

Best regards,

Bob Long
News Director

KVEA on 52.1 went HD last Saturday. I assume KWHY 22.1 will be next and guessing KNBC Channel 4 News will be sometime in October.

TonyW79SFV

09-20-07, 02:28 AM

Did you know they have Hour of Power on KCAL in HD now? I watched Evel Keneval get baptized in HD....quite interesting how some syndicated things are being broadcasted in HD. Anyone know if KTTV and/or KCOP plan to transmit or obtain copies of HD tapes of the Stargate franchises?

Related to this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=906784), KTLA has been showing Two and a Half Men in HD at 11pm. Other than Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune, KABC has been showing a late night show called Comics Unleashed with Byron Allen in HD. It's definitely interesting that there are more syndicated HD stuff now. KCAL used to show some IMAX films in HD years ago, I don't know what happened to that. And for those who received HD signals or saw it in the late 90s, KNBC produces Chuck Henry's Travel Cafe in HD, it used to run in a continous loop all day prior to duplicating SD service. Sadly, they never showed Travel Cafe in HD anymore; I hope with their digital studio conversion, we'll get to see it in HD again.

On another note, KCBS/KCAL have the capability to run HD commercials locally, not just their own promos, but commercials from at&t, Sharp, an exclusive Ken Cranes commercial, and CBS promos. KNBC has a lot to catch up to.

RudyG

09-20-07, 02:32 AM

KLCS appears to be back with their four digital stations. Although, it doesn't look like things are back to 100% yet, as there are still occasional drop outs now and then. It used to be absolutely rock solid.

Rudy

dotheDVDeed

09-20-07, 02:57 PM

Has anyone also noticed the breakup and dropouts on KNBC's Extra that follows the NBC Nightly News?

I assume it must be a production problem because it's the only show on KNBC for me that regularly has these breakups.

TIM

arbie

09-20-07, 03:39 PM

The KLCS-DT signal has improved significantly; their SNR is now 22.3 dB--a +7.5 dB change!

rb

Several colleagues complained that they are having trouble or can no longer receive KLCS-DT. KLCS-DT is licensed for 168 kW ERP,
and, while they have a construction permit on file with the FCC for 90 kW ERP, I would assume that they are running at their full
licensed power by now.

I looked at their signal this evening, and KLCS-DT is weaker than the two lowest power DTV stations in LA, KTBN-DT and KVEA-DT:

- Ch, Station, ERP (kW), SNR (dB)
- 23, KTBN-DT, 50, 20.4
- 39, KVEA-DT, 54, 24.8
- 41, KLCS-DT, 168, 15.8

Not surprisingly, I'm seeing transport stream continuity errors on KLCS-DT since their signal is now near my lower threshold.

I didn't find anything on the KLCS WWW site suggesting transmitter/antenna problems with their digital signal.

rb

jimcrow21

09-21-07, 03:19 AM

Who would have thought "En Contexto" would be in HD before NBC4 news....anyways PQ is really good. On par with that of KTLA, and SD inserts looks pretty decent too.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/aznxboix629/DSC00001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/aznxboix629/DSC00002.jpg

RudyG

09-21-07, 01:47 PM

Who would have thought "En Contexto" would be in HD before NBC4 news....anyways PQ is really good. On par with that of KTLA, and SD inserts looks pretty decent too.

The word is KMEX 22.1 is next, since all three have the same owner. This will bring the number of HD OTA to 12.

Rudy

SD73

09-21-07, 07:05 PM

I'd be a happy camper if we had a SAP button to reverse the language barrier. The Spaniards get all the breaks! ;)

RudyG

09-23-07, 12:37 AM

I'd be a happy camper if we had a SAP button to reverse the language barrier. The Spaniards get all the breaks! ;)
You know I've wanted to learn Spanish for over 25 years now. :( Hmm will the amount of HD content finally push me over the edge? :)

BTW I made a mistake in my previous post 22.1 is not KMEX, 22.1 is KWHY. :confused:

Rudy

RudyG

09-23-07, 02:34 PM

http://radiostationworld.com/locations/united_states_of_america/california/tv.asp?m=los

Quite interesting, and not AntennaWeb. :)

Rudy

Falcon_77

09-25-07, 04:27 PM

Thank you for the link. I have been assembling a list of local stations to see how many "white spaces" there are. The answer is, not many!

I don't think my inability to get San Diego stations is so much from weak signals, but co-channel interference.

Even with analog going away in a year and a half, I think the remaining channels will be far too crowded for the "white space" devices to be practical. I don't like the idea of unlicensed devices in the TV bands at all.

RudyG

09-25-07, 11:10 PM

You're welcome Falcon. I'm also constantly curious what is out there as compared to what I'm able to pick up. I'd love to get something like a 91xg or a CM4228 and see if anything can be pulled in from say Santa Barbara. That site by far had the most complete list of available channels that I have ever found anywhere. Plus it seemed like a pretty cool site. :)

BTW has anyone noticed that channel 18.4 surfaced recently, perhaps even today. Nothing on it yet, but I wonder if the Funimation fans are getting their channel back. :)

Rudy

WackyPacks

09-26-07, 01:06 AM

Personally, I do not believe Funimation Channel is likely to exist much longer. When they used to be on the KSCI subchannel, only thing that was on were repeats. It is bad enough when there are no new episodes, but they only televised a handful of programs. If that does not spell doom, look at their advertisers, or lack of them. Only advertising on the channel were for themselves!!! No one should be surprised of Funimation's failure here because their target audience probably never even knew there was something like that on KSCI.

My guess is whoever will be on 18.4 is some broadcaster who has enough money to start something and who also feels that their type programming is underserved in this market. I further predict it will be some sort of ethnic channel, something like all-Korean.

Falcon_77

09-26-07, 08:43 PM

I saw the Armenian Channel on one of 18's subs one night.

I agree that the Funimation Channel is probably going down. I was sad to see it go, but if they aren't adding any new content, its prospects aren't good. The only 3rd party ads I remember were from GameSpot.

I asked the Anime Network if they would consider broadcasting, but I have not heard a response. Perhaps if more people asked, they would think about it. I also asked ImaginAsian TV about it (at AX '07) and they weren't interested in broadcasting at all (too expensive they said). It seems that these companies are only interested in cable outlets.

Back to channel finding, on TV Fool, I noticed that there are a couple low power VHF digital stations (KMRZ-LP -3 and KVTU-LP - 12) near me, but I can find no evidence of their existence.

I am also trying to get KVCR-DT, but I've only been able to get their analog signal so far.

As for the San Diego stations, the ones with the least co-channel problems are: KPBS (15), KFMB (8) & KGTV (10). As for digital, my only hope may be KSWB (19). All the others are masked by local channels.

Falcon_77

09-27-07, 11:33 AM

UHF channels 14-20 seem quite vacant, with only KSCI 18 analog being in that range.

I have heard that this band of UHF is used for 2-way radios in major cities. Can anyone confirm this for the LA area? Looking at the analog snow, it is clear that something is going on for a least a few of them.

What are these 2-way radios and why are they allowed in the TV band? It only seems to narrow the channel choices further, especially with 52-69 going away in '09.

holl_ands

09-27-07, 11:06 PM

The lower UHF "T-Band" channels (14, 16 & 20) are assigned to local Police:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Police_Department_resources
http://www.npstc.org/meetings/NPSTC%20Comments%20on%20MB%20Docket%2004-186v3.pdf
Above is comment re interference from proposed unlicensed "White Space Devices".

Post Feb2009, some channels in the vacated CH52-69 block become available
to support Police/Homeland Security radio systems....but with typical equipment
lifecycles, lower UHF probably won't be vacated anytime soon....

Bear in mind that the DTV Channel Election chart is very incomplete.
There are still approx. 7,000 Analog Low Power and Translator/Repeater stations
that will begin to transition to digital AFTER Feb2009.
Some of these could join some of the approx. 2,000 existing DTV stations
or form new DTV "collectives". And some (many?) Translator/Repeater
stations could be reinvented as distributed "SFN" (Single Frequency Networks),
rather than using separate freq assignments.

Overall, this should free up channels, in addition to 2,000 Analog stations shut-down.

PS: TV channels can also be used by some Mobile TV trucks to send a
signal back to the studio--although most new systems use much higher freqs.

PPS: CH37 is never assigned, cuz it's reserved for radio astronomy....

RudyG

09-27-07, 11:24 PM

......
I am also trying to get KVCR-DT, but I've only been able to get their analog signal so far.
What a shame I pull KVCR-DT beautifully, here in West LA. Albeit it's only a 480i station but they have lots of cooking shows every Sunday Morning. :D :)
As for the San Diego stations, the ones with the least co-channel problems are: KPBS (15), KFMB (8) & KGTV (10). As for digital, my only hope may be KSWB (19). All the others are masked by local channels.
My only interest in the San Diego stations is really the PBS affiliate(s). Or to be more precise their digital counterparts. Not sure how many San Diego has. Is KPBSs digital transmission in 480i? If it is then I guess it is not worth the bother.
Speaking of San Diego, if I point my Silver Sensor a little more due south I can pull in San Diego's equivalent to our KTLA along with the digital counterparts. Yup including the The Tube on channel 69.

Rudy

holl_ands

09-27-07, 11:40 PM

Despite all the hype, recent FCC/OET tests confirmed that these so-called
"White Space Devices" can not be used in the vicinity of a cable ready TV/HDTV....
and (for the same reason!!!) probably also Cable STB/DVRs & some SAT Receivers:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0082/t.8265.html
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0082/t.8004.html
http://www.nab.org/xert/corpcomm/pressrel/releases/062007_NAB_MSTV_Whitespaces.pdf

BIGGEST PROBLEM---"White Space Devices" will leak into any nearby HDTVs
(and TVs, and Cable STB/DVRs and SAT Receivers, whether "cable ready" or not).
THERE ARE NO WHITE SPACES ON CABLE (nor many SAT coax downlinks):
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-275668A1.doc

The BIGGEST PROBLEM was direct on-channel interference into Cable TV
(and probably also some SAT Receivers), rather than co-channel and other
interference mechanisms tested by MSTV:
http://www.mstv.org/docs/NAFrebuttal.pdf

BTW, WSD prototypes couldn't even figure which channels were occupied...or not:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-275666A1.pdf
But requests to FCC for a "DO OVER" test don't really matter--
THERE ARE NO WHITE SPACES ON CABLE!!!!!

holl_ands

09-27-07, 11:53 PM

What a shame I pull KVCR-DT beautifully, here in West LA. Albeit it's only a 480i station but they have lots of cooking shows every Sunday Morning. :D :)

My only interest in the San Diego stations is really the PBS affiliate(s). Or to be more precise their digital counterparts. Not sure how many San Diego has. Is KPBSs digital transmission in 480i? If it is then I guess it is not worth the bother.

Rudy
KBPS-DT is in glorious 1080i and puts together their own schedule of nearly
all HD programs downloaded from "PBS Central" and other sources.

PS: Some PBS-HD stations "roll-their-own" and others (KCET-DT?) use "PBS World":
http://www.pbs.org/aboutpbs/news/20070709_world.html

RudyG

09-28-07, 01:54 AM

KBPS-DT is in glorious 1080i and puts together their own schedule of nearly
all HD programs downloaded from "PBS Central" and other sources.

PS: Some PBS-HD stations "roll-their-own" and others (KCET-DT?) use "PBS World":
http://www.pbs.org/aboutpbs/news/20070709_world.html
Thank you holl_ands. I'm hoping to maybe go with a dual antenna in the future and see if I can pull KPBSHD in with one of them. And them maybe use one of those devices that block out the frequencies I don't want that you and andy have talked about in previous posts. (I hope I'm describing them accurately) So that I can combine the signal from the two antennas. While I'm on the antenna subject. You and andy seemed to highly recommend the CM4228 which gets excellent reviews of course. However, while I was researching more on that, many people seem to imply that 91XG is an even better antenna than that. Do you have any thoughts or experiences on that?

Rudy

RudyG

09-28-07, 01:56 AM

You know I've wanted to learn Spanish for over 25 years now. :( Hmm will the amount of HD content finally push me over the edge? :)

BTW I made a mistake in my previous post 22.1 is not KMEX, 22.1 is KWHY. :confused:

Rudy
Well as of now, 22.1 is transmitting in 1080i. So that makes all of the NBC local affiliates transmitting in high definition.

Rudy

holl_ands

09-28-07, 05:07 AM

Thank you holl_ands. I'm hoping to maybe go with a dual antenna in the future and see if I can pull KPBSHD in with one of them. And them maybe use one of those devices that block out the frequencies I don't want that you and andy have talked about in previous posts. (I hope I'm describing them accurately) So that I can combine the signal from the two antennas. While I'm on the antenna subject. You and andy seemed to highly recommend the CM4228 which gets excellent reviews of course. However, while I was researching more on that, many people seem to imply that 91XG is an even better antenna than that. Do you have any thoughts or experiences on that?

Rudy
I never tried the 91XG, but have seen numerous reports which give the edge
to this monster antenna....which must be mounted outdoors...with a rotator.

But there is also a sizeable number of posts claiming better performance with CM4228.

The CM4228 will actually fit in an attic (some people have even included a rotator)
and has usable performance on high-VHF channels.

For UHF, the differences are probably fairly small, in favor of 91XG.

You might be interested in fol. tests (JBX21WB is "similar", but somewhat longer than 91XG):
http://www.atechfabrication.com/reception_solutions.htm

RudyG

09-28-07, 02:17 PM

I never tried the 91XG, but have seen numerous reports which give the edge
to this monster antenna....which must be mounted outdoors...with a rotator.

But there is also a sizeable number of posts claiming better performance with CM4228.

The CM4228 will actually fit in an attic (some people have even included a rotator)
and has usable performance on high-VHF channels.

For UHF, the differences are probably fairly small, in favor of 91XG.

You might be interested in fol. tests (JBX21WB is "similar", but somewhat longer than 91XG):
http://www.atechfabrication.com/reception_solutions.htm

Hmm that's interesting that you feel 91XG has to have a rotator whereas CM4228 does not.
I'm also curious if 91XG has as narrow a reception angle as CM4228 to prevent multipath.

Rudy

P.S. I couldn't find a test of JBX21WB on the link you provided, at least not under the support link.

Falcon_77

09-28-07, 03:53 PM

BTW, WSD prototypes couldn't even figure which channels were occupied...or not:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-275666A1.pdf
But requests to FCC for a "DO OVER" test don't really matter--
THERE ARE NO WHITE SPACES ON CABLE!!!!!

This is a very disturbing statement from the executive summary:

Where a DTV signal was strong enough to be received on the TV, the scanner reported its channel to be free or available 40% to 75% of the time with an average of 58.2% of the time.

So ignoring the cable TV issues, half the time they will go ahead and use an active channel? Are the WSD's at least vertically polarized to help avoid interference? I just can't accept the idea of these devices right now. They need to be band limited.

What I don't understand is why these devices were not assigned to part of the spectrum that is already being auctioned off?

However, I think I could live with a compromise of them being restricted to VHF-LO. Somehow, I doubt that would make for very popular devices. ;)