Depending on what is causing the problem, turning the antenna to an off-angle may help. This is a fairly common fix in very strong signal areas.

I would not suggest a pre-amp in your location as the signals are very strong for the most part and will likely overload any pre-amp.

Is it possible to run a new cable to the antenna for test purposes? What kind of cable are you using now? RG-6 is recommended over RG-59 or especially twin-lead.

It's not twin-lead. Don't know if it's RG-59 or RG-6, but it is long, about 50'. I will relocate the TV and try a new 20' RG-6 cable.

To get to the threshold needed for digital, you need to reduce cable runs. I am planning to reduce runs to the minimum to help get an improved analog signal, and hopefully a digital signal on 2/17/09. I have a question, though. What can be done about splitters. Are there more efficient ones that can be purchased? Does gold plating make a difference? Some discussion.

To get to the threshold needed for digital, you need to reduce cable runs. I am planning to reduce runs to the minimum to help get an improved analog signal, and hopefully a digital signal on 2/17/09. I have a question, though. What can be done about splitters. Are there more efficient ones that can be purchased? Does gold plating make a difference? Some discussion.

A distribution amp can help if a pre-amp is not needed in your location. The best a splitter can theoretically get is 3dB loss, but that is w/o any insertion loss. Practically, -3.5dB is about as good as can be found.

KTTV/FOX 11 seems to have made some changes recently. I have noticed that the DTV signal is much improved, but that the analog signal has degraded significantly.

Are they using a backup analog transmitter while doing work to prepare for the DTV switch to 11?

I can't find any info on their site about this or about DTV at all for that matter. I have e-mailed them, but if they are like almost every other local station, I doubt they will respond.

It is best to use RG6 quad shield as it is the lower loss. I use RG11 which is even lower loss but it is next to impossible to find. RG6 quad shield is readily available, I know Home Depot sells it realtively cheap.

Rick R

Hi there

For RG-6, Belden 1694A is (argueably) a better coax than quad shield. The braid (which is the return conductor) is all copper, rather than steel. But with current high prices for copper, 1694A has become expensive (about $.50/foot).

Regards

I am very curious about RG11 cable. Sounds like an improvement.

I am very curious about RG11 cable. Sounds like an improvement.

RG-11 is low loss, but bulky and hard to bend. (Coax, as well as other cables including UTP for Ethernet, has a minimum bend radius that should never be exceeded.) It's not easy to install.

BTW Belden 1694A is only slightly worse in signal loss than generic RG-11 w/o the bulk and stiffness.

If you are fortunate enough to use a Preamp (far enough away from nearby transmitters),
then loss of sensitivity due to cable loss will be REDUCED by amount of gain in Preamp....
so don't sweat a few dB extra in cable & RF Splitters....

And if you have read this thread and the ANTENNA thread, you should know to avoid
high-gain Preamps in suburban areas. [W-G HDP-269 has very high overload resistance.]

=======================================
Dual and Quad shield RG-6 can have the SAME loss if they are otherwise constructed the SAME.

We expect cable loss to vary between brands, esp. if they are off-brand-name cables....
But even for a single manufacturer (Belden for example), cable loss specs can vary quite a bit:

RG-11 is low loss, but bulky and hard to bend. (Coax, as well as other cables including UTP for Ethernet, has a minimum bend radius that should never be exceeded.) It's not easy to install.
RG-11 crimping tools and connectors also may be different....

Ditto dual vs quad shielded connectors & crimping tools unless they're dual purpose....

To get to the threshold needed for digital, you need to reduce cable runs. I am planning to reduce runs to the minimum to help get an improved analog signal, and hopefully a digital signal on 2/17/09. I have a question, though. What can be done about splitters. Are there more efficient ones that can be purchased? Does gold plating make a difference? Some discussion.
Gold plating on outer connector "may" avoid long term corrosion....but does NOTHING
wrt corrosion on copper center conductor...which still needs periodic cleaning (e.g. emory paper).
[Hmmmmm.....maybe Monster should make a gold dip kit....]

RF Splitter loss variance is pretty small--usually less than a dB.
Here's an RF Splitter comparison test I did using cable STB to measure signal levels
[cuz I'm retired and no longer have easy access to a room full of test equipment]:

If you are fortunate enough to use a Preamp (far enough away from nearby transmitters),
then loss of sensitivity due to cable loss will be REDUCED by amount of gain in Preamp....
so don't sweat a few dB extra in cable & RF Splitters....

And if you have read this thread and the ANTENNA thread, you should know to avoid
high-gain Preamps in suburban areas. [W-G HDP-269 has very high overload resistance.]

=======================================
Dual and Quad shield RG-6 can have the SAME loss if they are otherwise constructed the SAME.

We expect cable loss to vary between brands, esp. if they are off-brand-name cables....
But even for a single manufacturer (Belden for example), cable loss specs can vary quite a bit:
Thanks holl_ands. Great stuff as usual. And as usual it begs further questions, at least from me. :) I tried to go and see who and where might sell this stuff and found it to be not that widely available for consumers, anyway. So it made me wonder of a couple of things. How do the Monoprice cables compare to these Beldens/Beldins? If not Monoprice then some other reputable cable retailer. Unfortunately Monoprice doesn't seem to offer anything heftier than 18AWG whereas the Beldins you tested appear to be 14AWG.
If Beldens are the way to go, then do you, or anyone else, know of a place that sells them at hopefully a reasonable price?

Thanks
Rudy

Hi there

The center conductor of Belden 1694A (it's spelled with an "e", not 'i") is a solid copper 18 AWG wire. More common is steel wire with a copper clad, which is supposed to be okay if the cable is only used for RF frequencies.

Smaller wire gauge number means bigger wire and more current capacity. But at high frequencies that does not necessarily mean less RF signal loss. Belden claims that the 1694A has tighter tolerances ("precision cable") so that the cable has a consistent 75-ohm characteristic impedance.

I last bought Belden 1694A about 2 years ago from Westlake Electronic Supply, Inc in WA at 27 cents a foot. Total cost for 132 feet was $50 back then; the price & shipping has since gone up significantly. But Westlake is one of the rare retailers that will let you buy less than a 500' spool, and they used to charge the same rate for 1 foot or 1000'.

http://www.westlake-electronic.com/cgi-bin/store.php?search_sent=1&search=yes&available_only=1&MFC=BEL&category=CABR,CAB&keywords=1694a&kwsug=1

Terminated 1694A is available from several cable retailers like bluejeans cable, an AVS sponsor.

Comparing cables prices with Monoprice is not fair. It's decent stuff; my HT projector is connected with their cable. But I don't worry too much about 10' of cable for VGA signals. But 60' of cable for low-level, wide-bandwidth signal is different.

What about going hi tech on distrobution and having your own retransmitter, then a receiver on each television? This eliminates the preamp, amp, so the power savings then goes to the transmitter/receiver. What if someone is doing that in your local area right now? Can you pick it up from their system?

RG11 is 1/2 inch in diameter. I purchased it for 11 cents a foot and bags of two crimp connedtors for 79 cents. However the store that sold it to me was a small electronics store that has since gone out of business (ITC Electronics in Northridge, CA). They couldn't compete with the Frys of the world. The crimping tool was difficult to find and I used a pliers. This resulted in poor mechanical connections which cause me problems. I still have a supply of connectors and cable. And no I will not sell them.

Rick R

KFLA broadcasts digitally on VHF channel 8.

Their transmitter power is only 0.3 kW. But they do transmit from Mount Wilson. Maybe only in the Indian Wells direction?

Curious who's able to pull this signal down? Where are you located? (Approx loc. is O.K.) What's your equipment?

More info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KFLA-LD
and
http://www.kfla.tv/

Here in Downey with DVICO Fusion HDTV3 Card I can only can pull 25% not enough for a picture.

FYI: Differences in the inner dielectric material and thickness are a big (if not biggest) factor
in overall cable loss.

I would first check local home and electrical supply houses to identify brand/model numbers
they carry and then check specs via on-line search....at least you'll know the $/dB cost differential....

www.homedepot.com shows the fol. BICC RG-6 cable
(General Datacomm Carol brand):
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100066869
Hopefully you'll find a part number on the cable that matches one of these:
http://www.generalcable.com/NR/rdonlyres/55F61B9E-9619-4C50-9093-2DED4E2238E3/0/Pg59thru65RG_6U_Type.pdf

They also show Coleman Dual and Quad RG-6 cables:
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100070660
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100049775
Fol. lists detailed specs for P/N 92003 (Dual) and 92041 (Quad):
http://www.colemancable.com/CatalogProducts.asp?nProductsID=478

Then you can compare 100-ft/500-ft reel prices vs buying by the foot.....

==================================
I Googled and quickly found fol. Belden sources:
a. Located in Michigan:
http://www.solidsignal.com/cat_display.asp?main_cat=13&CAT=Bulk%20RG6/RG11%20Coax%20Cable
b. Located in Cupertino, CA (near San Jose):
http://www.hometech.com/techwire/coax.html
c. Located in Huntington Beach & also posts specs for some non-Belden cables:
http://www.homenetworkgear.com/catalog/dept_id_311.htm?sid=F173173DE8546BDBD4AFB545D46B26F8&pid=1207

Obviously, the shipping costs are significant, so call around locally.....

Thanks everyone for your helpful replies.


Comparing cables prices with Monoprice is not fair. It's decent stuff; my HT projector is connected with their cable. But I don't worry too much about 10' of cable for VGA signals. But 60' of cable for low-level, wide-bandwidth signal is different.
blue_z are you talking about their Monorice Component cables or their RG6 cables? The one I was asking about is their RG6 Quad shielded 18 Gauge.

Rudy

blue_z are you talking about their Monorice Component cables or their RG6 cables? The one I was asking about is their RG6 Quad shielded 18 Gauge.

Hi there

I was actually generalizing about Monoprice cables; from a price standpoint probably no name brand can compete with them.

Belden 1694A is an RG-6 cable that can also be used for baseband video as well as RF. For projectors or monitors with RGBHV inputs using BNC connectors, 1694A can be used as the 75-ohm coax video cables. Instead of getting an expensive set of cables from BlueJeans, I opted for a Monoprice VGA to 5xBNC cable. I hoped that the high-level, video bandwidth RGB signals did not require premium cable.

The situation where I did install premium coax was from the antenna to TV receiver. This was an analog TV, and presumably the quality of the lead-in cable would affect PQ. In this situation the cable was carrying a signal about a thousandths smaller (one volt versus a microvolt?), and much higher and wider bandwidth (couple MHz versus 100s of MHz)

The point I was trying to make was that Monoprice products will probably suffice in most situations, especially if cost is an issue. But there may be situations where you may want to ignore cost and consider premium products.

BTW I'm not a fan of quad shield coax. Since I usually terminate my own cables, I don't want the hassle of different connectors, and no way to verify good connections to both shield layers.

BTW are you aware that quad shield is not double the shielding of double shield? Quad shield has 4 shields, and double shield has 2 shields. Half the shields are braided wire. Quad shield typically has only 50 to 60% coverage per braid, so there are still spots of no shield by either braid.

Regards

Curious who's able to pull this signal down? Where are you located? (Approx loc. is O.K.) What's your equipment?

Hi there

Falcon_77 asked the same question last month, and there were about 2 positive replies.

Most of the time I can recieive KFLA-DT, but there are periods of extra weak signal (weather related? or wet roof?) that kills digital reception. I'm in Fountain Valley using a ChannelMaster 8-bay in the attic and a KWorld ATSC 110 PCI tuner. Considering that this is a low- power VHF signal and the antenna is in the attic, any reception says something positive about the 4228's hi-VHF capability.

For comparisons
KNBC-DT is about 92% signal strength
KFLA is about 66% (when it's good; sometimes goes down to 40)
KTTV-DT is 88%
KSCI-Dt is 80%
KOCE-DT is 94%


Since the 4228 is a high gain antenna, there's a 2-way splitter and 15' of old RG-59 for lead-in. If I need more signal, I could upgrade the coax. (It's another UHF and a VHF antennae that got the 1694A treatment.)

Regards

Hi there

I was actually generalizing about Monoprice cables; from a price standpoint probably no name brand can compete with them.

Belden 1694A is an RG-6 cable that can also be used for baseband video as well as RF. For projectors or monitors with RGBHV inputs using BNC connectors, 1694A can be used as the 75-ohm coax video cables. Instead of getting an expensive set of cables from BlueJeans, I opted for a Monoprice VGA to 5xBNC cable. I hoped that the high-level, video bandwidth RGB signals did not require premium cable.

The situation where I did install premium coax was from the antenna to TV receiver. This was an analog TV, and presumably the quality of the lead-in cable would affect PQ. In this situation the cable was carrying a signal about a thousandths smaller (one volt versus a microvolt?), and much higher and wider bandwidth (couple MHz versus 100s of MHz)

The point I was trying to make was that Monoprice products will probably suffice in most situations, especially if cost is an issue. But there may be situations where you may want to ignore cost and consider premium products.

BTW I'm not a fan of quad shield coax. Since I usually terminate my own cables, I don't want the hassle of different connectors, and no way to verify good connections to both shield layers.

BTW are you aware that quad shield is not double the shielding of double shield? Quad shield has 4 shields, and double shield has 2 shields. Half the shields are braided wire. Quad shield typically has only 50 to 60% coverage per braid, so there are still spots of no shield by either braid.

Regards
OK gotcha. Thanks.
Hi there
.....
Most of the time I can recieive KFLA-DT, but there are periods of extra weak signal (weather related? or wet roof?) that kills digital reception. I'm in Fountain Valley using a ChannelMaster 8-bay in the attic and a KWorld ATSC 110 PCI tuner. Considering that this is a low- power VHF signal and the antenna is in the attic, any reception says something positive about the 4228's hi-VHF capability.
......
Ahhhh I notice that you happen to have a PC card. Any chance that you may be able to measure the bit rate KOCE is streaming channel 50.1 at? Watching it makes me wonder if it is down to single digits. Meaning below 10 Mbps. :eek: Kind of a shame really, the littlest movement or any kind of complex picture results in immediate macroblocking. :( I'm thinking of maybe contacting their engineering department and asking them about this. Especially since they are starting to have quite a few HD shows. But would love to have the data before I make the contact. Even though the thought of calling someone with something critical makes me a little uncomfortable. I'll have to try and find just the right words.
Say anyone here knows anyone in KOCE engineering? :)

Thanks.
Rudy

Mt. Wilson. Been researching a little bit where the transmitters are. Are any situated so, the signal more geared to Los Angeles County, Orange County, Kern County, Ventura County. Can anyone put in words what Antennaweb and TVfool put in more direct charts to your specific address. Think in terms of Cities and Counties in the discussion.

Curious who's able to pull this signal down? Where are you located? (Approx loc. is O.K.) What's your equipment?

Tustin, with various receivers, and a rooftop antenna provided by the apartments I live in.

I can get them intermittently and occasionally on the two LG receivers (a 3410a and a 4800) and (if it's a particularly good day) my EyeTV 500. The elderly Samsung OTA tuner I found at a thrift store for $3 has never been able to lock onto them.

Usually I can't get them at all, but I was getting a somewhat hashed up picture from them this morning.

If you look at their coverage map, you can see that most of Orange County won't have an easy time pulling them in:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1208527.html

From what I've seen so far, we're not missing much.

Thanks for the replies. I wonder if this is the first of many similar low power stations or if they plan to increase their strength of their signal at a later date.

They certainly seem to push the limits of currently available equipment. I don't think they'll get many viewers of the joe six-pack rabbit-ears variety.

Mt. Wilson. Been researching a little bit where the transmitters are. Are any situated so, the signal more geared to Los Angeles County, Orange County, Kern County, Ventura County. Can anyone put in words what Antennaweb and TVfool put in more direct charts to your specific address. Think in terms of Cities and Counties in the discussion.

I'm not sure if this addresses what you were looking for, but I've attached a coverage map of the KNBC transmitter on Mt. Wilson. This should be a good representation of the coverage for many of the transmitters on that mountain.

Most of the "flat" areas are covered well. The mountains will create "shadows" in places like Burbank, Simi Valley, and some spots in Orange County.

I hope this helps!

Best regards,
Andy

KFLA broadcasts digitally on VHF channel 8.

Their transmitter power is only 0.3 kW. But they do transmit from Mount Wilson. Maybe only in the Indian Wells direction?

Curious who's able to pull this signal down? Where are you located? (Approx loc. is O.K.) What's your equipment?


I can get KFLA here in Canoga Park. Signal strength is 55%-65%. Plenty of dropouts. On a good day it is watchable. For VHF I have the largest VHF only antenna that Wineguard makes, I don't recall the model number. Currently it is sitting on my roof. The last big Santa Ana winds knocked it down off the mast. I expect to pick up a few dB of signal when I put the new mast up. My receiver is a Sony KDL-V32XBR1. I do not use a preamp for VHF. I have a 25 foot run of RG-6 coax.

-Paul

Thanks for the NBC download. We're in Ventura. A canyon. So, looks like we're probably like those other dropout or shadow areas. Very cool. Thanks!

Interesting map. However I am in the worst part of Simi Valley for reception. I am directly behind and 3 miles from 2714' Rocky Peak. However KNBC is my second best channel (KTLA is my best). KNBC is rock solid with my chimney mounted Winegard 8200 antenna with a Winegard 8275 preamp.

Rick R

Hi there

Any chance that you may be able to measure the bit rate KOCE is streaming channel 50.1 at?

Last night 50.1 had a video bit rate of about 8.6 megabits per second. So you guessed right. However I'm not seeing any of the macroblocking or any other artifacts. Although my PC is deinterlacing and downscaling the 1080i to 720p before the video gets to the projector.

Say anyone here knows anyone in KOCE engineering?

Benway posted an engineer's e-mail back on 11/07/07.

Regards

Hi there
Last night 50.1 had a video bit rate of about 8.6 megabits per second. So you guessed right. However I'm not seeing any of the macroblocking or any other artifacts. Although my PC is deinterlacing and downscaling the 1080i to 720p before the video gets to the projector.

Hmm I wonder if your driver is doing some software compensating or other manipulation, besides downscaling to give you a smooth picture. On my Sony KDSR50XBR1 any medium to fast movement results in fingernail size squares filling up the area of movement. Seeing a river run turns almost immediately into a jigsaw puzzle. :(

Benway posted an engineer's e-mail back on 11/07/07.
Regards
Thanks, I'll look for it. I was just going to call, but I guess email may be easier, although most likely to be ignored. I was hoping there was someone here that maybe knew the engineer :) and would be able to slip that info to him gently. :)

Huge thanks.
Rudy

I was just going to call, but I guess email may be easier, although most likely to be ignored.

Hi there

E-mail is usually preferred for reporting technical problems by most outfits, assuming you're can supply enough details. At least I prefer e-mail.
The KOCE engineer is responsive. The eventual solution took a few weeks, but I was not ignored. I got the impression that there was a lot of tweaking with their digital equipment so that they can cram those 4 sub-channels using the least bandwidth.

Regards

Thanks for the NBC download. We're in Ventura. A canyon. So, looks like we're probably like those other dropout or shadow areas. Very cool. Thanks!

Interesting map. However I am in the worst part of Simi Valley for reception. I am directly behind and 3 miles from 2714' Rocky Peak. However KNBC is my second best channel (KTLA is my best). KNBC is rock solid with my chimney mounted Winegard 8200 antenna with a Winegard 8275 preamp.

Exact location can make a big difference in coverage in areas riddled with shadows. A few blocks in either direction can sometimes mean the difference between good and bad OTA availability. In the attached map, you can see that some parts of Ventura and Simi Valley get decent coverage from KNBC-DT while others do not.

OTA reception is unique to every situation, so It's always best to get a signal analysis for your specific location whenever possible.

Best regards,
Andy

Per your KNBC-DT map I am dark for NBC. We're in the 33 area. Am going to have to put a power amplifier, line amplifier, shorten cable runs, etc. Do all we can and still might get nothing. Best channels in this area are KEYT Santa Barbara, KTBN Trinity (low power station), KABC Los Angeles, FOX 13. Analog. Starting to make the change to digital. Expect to get Santa Barbara stations. East side of Ventura should be ok for the digital transition and LA Stations. Peace.

How is signal analysis done?

How is signal analysis done?

What I meant was that everyone should enter their exact location into signal prediction tools like antennaweb.org or tvfool.com. They compute your OTA prospects and should take into account all the terrain obstructions that may be affecting you.

If you're asking about the actual techniques and math behind the analysis tools, then I can elaborate on that if you wish.

Best regards,
Andy

What ever happened to channel 13.1 (channel 66)? I can get all of the other digital TV syations in LA and Orange County with mostly rock-solid reception (oddly, the OC stations, at least 50.1 are even more steady even though farther away). To be exact, I am located in upper Granada Hills (SFV), and am using a Winegard roof antenna with a mast-mounted Winegard 28 db preamp.

Anyway channel 13.1 actually did appear for a very short time around 2004 with a very strong signal and then disappeared completely and has been gone ever since. Supposedly it still exists, but if this is so, it really seems odd that I can get every other station, yet not even a weak, unuseable signal from 13.1!

I am interested in the math behind signal analysis. Had a short cable run, then split to a longer run, switched the older tv close to the antenna, and the new one at the longer run. Great success. So, I guess I learned something about analog. Newer analog tv's have better tuners so give them the longer run. When you make the switch to digital and hi-def are there differences in tuners. So, you would have to take into consideration before you purchase the tuner capability to lock in the signal? Peace.

Hmm I wonder if your driver is doing some software compensating or other manipulation, besides downscaling to give you a smooth picture. On my Sony KDSR50XBR1 any medium to fast movement results in fingernail size squares filling up the area of movement. Seeing a river run turns almost immediately into a jigsaw puzzle. :(

Thanks, I'll look for it. I was just going to call, but I guess email may be easier, although most likely to be ignored. I was hoping there was someone here that maybe knew the engineer :) and would be able to slip that info to him gently. :)

Huge thanks.
Rudy
KOCE does indeed turn into a jigsaw puzzle whenever the camera pans, they really need to do something about this. I'm starting to wish the digital revolution would have started later so that MPEG-4 could've been the standard for broadcasting instead of MPEG-2, or at least the FCC could've restricted how many sub-channels could be carried (0 if you ask me).

Anyway channel 13.1 actually did appear for a very short time around 2004 with a very strong signal and then disappeared completely and has been gone ever since. Supposedly it still exists, but if this is so, it really seems odd that I can get every other station, yet not even a weak, unuseable signal from 13.1!

KCOP has consistently been the hardest DTV channel for me to receive. It seems that if one can get it, they probably can get most or all of the others.

I seriously doubt that KCOP is broadcasting at their 371kW allotment. Also, I see that they had a CP Mod for 1000kW that expired in '06. I wouldn't be surprised if they are broadcasting at no more than 50kW for DTV right now.

I suspect they aren't taking DTV seriously until they move back to channel 13 next year. They have ignored my queries about their weak signal.

I am interested in the math behind signal analysis.
Longley-Rice Irregular Terrain Model is a mix of Line-Of-Sight
(with ground wave bounce), Multiple-Edge Diffraction and
a whole lot of statistical finagling trying to "fit" a huge database
of actual live measurements...plus various statistical criteria:
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/bulletins/oet69/oet69.pdf
http://www.softwright.com/faq/engineering/prop_longley_rice.html
http://www.softwright.com/tap6.html

L-R ITM results are adjusted to include Land Use Clutter Loss:
http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Documents/bulletins/oet72/oet72.pdf
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-00-185A1.pdf

NTIA & ITS documents:
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/fm/ptp/report.pdf
http://flattop.its.bldrdoc.gov/itm.html
http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/pub/ntia-rpt/82-100/
http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/pub/ntia-rpt/tn101/

EE course material:
http://users.ictp.it/~radionet/2000_school/lectures/carlo/linkloss/INDEX.HTM
http://people.seas.harvard.edu/~jones/es151/prop_models/propagation.html

And not to forget some propagation modes NOT included above:
http://www.anarc.org/wtfda/propagation.htm
http://www.qsl.net/oz1rh/troposcatter99/troposcatter99.htm
http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo_enp.html
http://www.dxinfocentre.com/propagation/tr-modes.htm

Good luck....

Wow. And you thought you were just watching television. I'll take the good luck. Thanks.

KCOP has consistently been the hardest DTV channel for me to receive. It seems that if one can get it, they probably can get most or all of the others.

I seriously doubt that KCOP is broadcasting at their 371kW allotment. Also, I see that they had a CP Mod for 1000kW that expired in '06. I wouldn't be surprised if they are broadcasting at no more than 50kW for DTV right now.

I suspect they aren't taking DTV seriously until they move back to channel 13 next year. They have ignored my queries about their weak signal.

I tried to reach engineering by email and phone but they aren't responding at all. I also suspect they are transmitting at way less than what they're officially filed with the FCC.

I receive over 40 channels including CBS,NBC,The CW, ABC,KCAL, FOX, PBS San Bernardino, PBS Orange County and PBS Los Angeles but KCOP is completely dead in this area.

Um, I did post http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/237/radarallug0.png earlier and it says -46.9. What does that number mean?

On 12/14/2007 before 11:25 PM PST: But for once in a first time, TSReader Lite v2.8.46a didn't give me can't lock a signal error and showed signal going back and forth with Locked and Unlocked SNR (the lowest was 12.5 dB and the highest was 17.5 dB; seem to hang around at 13 dB a lot). After closing, I couldn't get a signal lock again after maybe 10 times of reattempts, then I got a quick lock. The program showed unlocked SNR for a LONG time (no up and down a lot). I even saw its value go down to 1.8 dB a few times! Does anyone know if this tool can log/graph so I don't have to stare at it? :D

I tried other channels and they had values in 27-28 dB (KCBS), 27-29 dB (KNBC), 23-24 dB (KABC), 24-25 dB (KCOP), etc. None of them ever unlocked their signals. So, it seems KTLA's SNR is going up and down too much. Am I reading and understsanding this correctly? What values are supposed to be good for SNRs? Or do I want stable values? Are all stations/channels different?

For the last 20 minutes, signal strength was decent 50-60% in my DVB Viewer program. 20-22 dB in TSReader Lite.

http://xs222.xs.to/xs222/07500/GE3DaerialmapAndTx.jpg for Google Earth's 3D map (kmz from http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=41 ) and the TX overview map facing north to show what the area looks like in aerial 3D mode.

I hope these give more clues. :)

FYI. I don't know if heights of the home on the hills matter. I am about 520 ft. in terms of elevation.

What ever happened to channel 13.1 (channel 66)? I can get all of the other digital TV syations in LA and Orange County with mostly rock-solid reception (oddly, the OC stations, at least 50.1 are even more steady even though farther away). To be exact, I am located in upper Granada Hills (SFV), and am using a Winegard roof antenna with a mast-mounted Winegard 28 db preamp.

Anyway channel 13.1 actually did appear for a very short time around 2004 with a very strong signal and then disappeared completely and has been gone ever since. Supposedly it still exists, but if this is so, it really seems odd that I can get every other station, yet not even a weak, unuseable signal from 13.1!

KCOP had an excellent signal until October of a few years ago when they moved their transmitter. Now it is nonexistant where I live. I have not gotten any signal for over a year. Since I do not watch SD, their SD satellite channel is not used by me. However that is ok I guess. Since Star Trek went off the air I never have had occassion to watch KCOP but even if there was something to watch I could not.

Rick R

I just contacted engineering and she told me that they don't have plans to make upgrades because they haven't received any complaints, when I asked if I can send them a link to this forum she told me that they don't give out email addresses but I can send a email to programming (which I've done many times :confused:).

BTW if you want to contact them call 310-584-2000 and ask for engineering.
Programming's email address: programming@la13.com

they don't have plans to make upgrades because they haven't received any complaints, when I asked if I can send them a link to this forum she told me that they don't give out email addresses

They don't give out their email address and they haven't received any complaints. This sounds like the Ostrich approach to running a TV station.

Rick R

KCOP has consistently been the hardest DTV channel for me to receive. It seems that if one can get it, they probably can get most or all of the others.

I seriously doubt that KCOP is broadcasting at their 371kW allotment. Also, I see that they had a CP Mod for 1000kW that expired in '06. I wouldn't be surprised if they are broadcasting at no more than 50kW for DTV right now.

I suspect they aren't taking DTV seriously until they move back to channel 13 next year. They have ignored my queries about their weak signal.

Thank you for this information. It certainly explains the situation. Incidentally, I forgot about KCLS, channel 58; it has always been very weak and snowy at best here on analog and nonexistent on digital.

I have always felt that Mt. Wilson was a very poor choice for locating the TV transmitters. It only has good LOS coverage to the south. Undoubtedly, it was chosen in the 1940's when virtually all populated areas of S. California were in the LA basin and the SG Valley. To the west, coverage ranges from only fair to poor, and, as I understand, it is practically nil to the north.

Does anyone have the channels.conf entries for KCAL and KCOP (and any subchannels) ? Obviously, they're difficult to scan.

Thanks

Hi there



Last night 50.1 had a video bit rate of about 8.6 megabits per second. So you guessed right. However I'm not seeing any of the macroblocking or any other artifacts. Although my PC is deinterlacing and downscaling the 1080i to 720p before the video gets to the projector.

Benway posted an engineer's e-mail back on 11/07/07.

Regards
OK I sent the inquiry to KOCE and got a very prompt and courteous response, which made me feel good about the future of the channel and its quality. Here is the response:

Hi Rudy,



Sorry for getting back to you late. I was out the last couple days.



Thank you for tuning in and thank you even more for taking the time to let us know of any problem with our channels.

We try to leave at least 10.0Mb in the pipe for the HD channel. We also use what called "statistical multiplexing" or stat mux which is a feature of our multiplexor that constantly monitors the needed bit rate at each scene in all four channels then automatically reallocate bandwidth on scenes which do not need a lot to scenes that requires more bandwidth, with the HD channel
being set up as the first benefactor. We’ve found that, occasionally, this feature on our multiplexor “mal-functions” and locks our HD channel at a low bit rate. That then results in the macro-blocking that you see.

We are working to fine-tune it. Hopefully, this does not happen too often.

We can’t drop 50.4 just yet. Due to poor analog reception at certain locations, cable head-ends from TimeWarner and Cox are receiving this digital feed as their “normal” analog feed. So if we drop this now, quite a large number of viewers will lose our feed.

In the end, yes, we realize our shortcomings as a result of having to juggle 4 different feeds in our digital pipe which then affects

the quality on our HD channel. We do plan to drop 50.4 by the conversion time next year. By then, all extra bandwidth will be reallocated to our main HD channel.

Hope this helps. Please let me know if you still have questions.

Thanks again and thank you for tuning in.

Kiem

Anybody have luck getting decent OTA reception in the Burbank Hills area? I am yet to find any information encouraging enough to get me start working on this project. Also, are there any tried and tested professional antennae installers in the area.

Thanks in advance for all information and pointers.

They don't give out their email address and they haven't received any complaints. This sounds like the Ostrich approach to running a TV station.

Rick R

They are by far the most difficult station to correspond with IMO.

I don't know what they consider as a complaint, I sent them several emails since Jun 23rd 2006 but they have not responded to any and I'm sure other people complained about the signal or lack thereof since it began in 03. BTW I contacted programming by phone back in mid 07 and they told me to contact engineering yet engineering told me to email programming (which I've already done several times).

In this area, KTTV transmitting at 1000. kW comes in at 90% but KCOP allegedly transmitting at 371. kW comes in at 5% max. Both stations broadcast from the same site.

BTW I forgot to ask about that recently expired 1000 kW construction permit (BMPCDT-20040609ABC) they filed with the FCC in 04, I doubt they are transmitting at anything remotely close to 1000 kW.

Anybody have luck getting decent OTA reception in the Burbank Hills area? I am yet to find any information encouraging enough to get me start working on this project. Also, are there any tried and tested professional antennae installers in the area.

Thanks in advance for all information and pointers.

Burbank is a tough area. If you are close to the local hills, the signals from Mt. Wilson will probably be blocked. I would suggest running a TV Fool plot for your area and see if any results are above -105dBm. If not, it's going to be very tough.

http://www.tvfool.com/

Anybody have luck getting decent OTA reception in the Burbank Hills area? I am yet to find any information encouraging enough to get me start working on this project. Also, are there any tried and tested professional antennae installers in the area.

Thanks in advance for all information and pointers.

You should check out this site:

http://atechfabrication.com/information/testing_condtions.htm

This guy makes cases for htpc's, but he lives in the Burbank Hills and went through a lot of trouble to get OTA reception there.

He tried a lot of different antennas and configurations! The site has information from all of his tests.

Now, it looks like he makes and sells antenna mounts to duplicate his setup. He is also a nice and helpful person! If you search for him (Glenn_L) or a-tech fabrication here on avsforum, you will see that he is active and helpful.

You can probably contact him and tell about your location and setup, and get precise recommendations, since he has already endured the pain of getting reception in your area.

Glenn has very detailed analysis on his site and while the test results go back a "few" years, the results are still relevant, at least until next year. It looks like the image for the Mt. Wilson test is no longer working, but there are other tests available on the site:

http://atechfabrication.com/tests/01-08-02_jbx_shootout.htm

Getting those Blake antennas however is not an easy task. I contacted Blake UK a few months ago and they no longer had a US supplier. They can ship direct... for about $160 for 1 antenna.

The prospects for Burbank should improve in '09 when 4 stations return to VHF for digital.

The higher UHF channels have a really hard time bending around mountains, etc. Those moving from UHF to VHF next year include:

KABC, KTTV, KCAL & KCOP

The following stations will be moving from UHF channels above 51 to lower UHF channels, which may help somewhat:

KCET (59 > 28)
KCBS (60 > 43 - taking KCAL's spot)
KSCI (61 > 18)
KRCA (68 > 45)

This page may be more helpful as it lists several different antennas aimed at Mt. Wilson from Burbank:

http://atechfabrication.com/tests/04-24-01_test_results.htm

I noticed that it shows KCOP as channel 32, which is currently used by KDOC. If so, I'm wondering why KCOP made the move to 66. It couldn't have been to improve their signal, considering how bad it is now.

Anybody have luck getting decent OTA reception in the Burbank Hills area? I am yet to find any information encouraging enough to get me start working on this project. Also, are there any tried and tested professional antennae installers in the area.

Thanks in advance for all information and pointers.

It depends on exactly where you are. See the attached detailed coverage map for KCBS. Most of the other Mt. Wilson transmitters will have a similar pattern. In short, the area just to the west of the Burbank hills is in a pretty deep shadow and your exact location will determine how much effort it will take to pull the signal out of the air.

If you're in the orange (strong), yellow, green, light blue, or blue areas (weak), then you can probably pick up the channel with the right antenna. Orange or yellow is at a level where a simple set of indoor rabbit ears + loop antenna might work. Green or light blue might require a slightly better antenna installed in the attic. Blue is at the level where a decent rooftop antenna is needed.

If you're in the pink area, you might still be able to get the channel, but it will require a very good antenna setup. A high gain "fringe" antenna plus a good pre-amp on a mast on the roof with up-tilt (to point at the mountain's ridge) would be required to have a shot at the channel. It's doable, but you'll have your work cut out for you.

If you're in the "dark" areas (no color), then you basically have no chance of getting the channel at all.

These are just rough estimates, but you can see that the closer you get to the mountains, the more difficult things will become.

Good luck!

Best regards,
Andy



EDIT (1/31/08): Sorry, I made a mistake while processing this map. The color coding of the map should actually be worse than indicated (more difficult to receive). All the colors should be shifted by roughly half a color band to be more accurate. I am reprocessing a corrected map now and will re-post the image when it is done. Sorry for the confusion.

EDIT (2/1/08): Reprocessed image attached.

It depends on exactly where you are. See the attached detailed coverage map for KCBS. Most of the other Mt. Wilson transmitters will have a similar pattern.

KCBS is about a half mile from the other transmitters for now, but it appears that they will be moving to the KCAL site when they switch to 43 next year. I'm sure that makes sense vs. building a new transmitter on the old tower.

However, the current KCBS tower is the highest on Mt. Wilson. They will be losing 140 meters of HAAT at the new site. I don't think the lower channel/frequency (43 vs. 60) will be enough to make up for this loss.

It appears that KNBC will have the "King of the Hill" designation next year at 984m HAAT, closely followed by KABC.

Have I been looking at tables too much? :D

I noticed that it shows KCOP as channel 32, which is currently used by KDOC. If so, I'm wondering why KCOP made the move to 66. It couldn't have been to improve their signal, considering how bad it is now.

KCOP has been on 66 since I started receiving digital OTA in December of 2000. It was initally a very strong signal until a few years ago when they dropped out of the picture. I guess they will switch to their channel 13 transmitter in 12 months and don't want to pay any extra money until then.

Rick R

Is the transmitter layout of Mount Wilson displayed anywhere? What the map is, the elevations. Maybe a three dimensional layout of the transmitters. This might help everyone understand from what part of Mount Wilson the transmitters are. Anyone been up there? From what I've read it has an interesting history.

http://www.TVFool.com has torrents of maps one can load into Google Earth showing locations of all transmitters in a given area.

http://www.TVFool.com has torrents of maps one can load into Google Earth showing locations of all transmitters in a given area.

I found this page, which shows some of the locations:
http://www.fybush.com/sites/2005/site-051216.html

Is the transmitter layout of Mount Wilson displayed anywhere? What the map is, the elevations. Maybe a three dimensional layout of the transmitters. This might help everyone understand from what part of Mount Wilson the transmitters are. Anyone been up there? From what I've read it has an interesting history.
If you search for posts made by andy.s.lee in this very thread, you will find what you are looking for. He made a Google Earth map with transmitters mapped right on it.

Check it out, as it is very cool.
Rudy

Searched for Andy.S.Lee threads. Saw the maps. Agree. Very cool. Looking for 3D map showing how the signals reach to the Highway 33 side of Ventura. Or, 2 D looking at a side cut of the mountain looking at the signal as it goes over the hill on the west side of Ventura. I haven't learned this torrent stuff from tvfool.

Tower location *.kmz file for entire nation is fairly small.

Unfortunately, L.A. Coverage Map *.kmz file is 65MB...hence Torrent.
Anyone want to volunteer to download and host this big file???
If so, go ahead and do San Diego and San Francisco as well....

Note that www.tvfool.com also has an "On-line Coverage Map" feature,
but it is a very low rez topography version.

A chilling reason for OTA signals being degraded lately:
http://earthsignals.com/add_CGC/kabc_tv_ice.htm

I thought I read KNBC would be doing local HD newscasts before the end of 2007? Anyone know anything?

I thought I read KNBC would be doing local HD newscasts before the end of 2007? Anyone know anything?

I don't "know anything" directly, but KNBC is going to be moving with the rest of NBC to Universal in N. Hollywood sometime in the near future. I doubt they would spend any money upgrading Alameda only to have to tear it down so soon after. My guess is it was all put on hold until the big move. I could be wrong but it makes sense to me. :confused:

I don't "know anything" directly, but KNBC is going to be moving with the rest of NBC to Universal in N. Hollywood sometime in the near future. I doubt they would spend any money upgrading Alameda only to have to tear it down so soon after. My guess is it was all put on hold until the big move. I could be wrong but it makes sense to me. :confused:

Considering they haven't even broken ground on the new facility, it's going to be a few years before they make the move.

Considering they haven't even broken ground on the new facility, it's going to be a few years before they make the move.

Exactly. So if you had to commit millions of $$$ where would you put it? They'll prolly end up renting big trucks for the interim.

What was your OTA reception like during the superbowl? I was in Culver City, and have an attic mounted antenna, so it was shielded from the weather. The skys were clear, but it was windy. We had a few dropouts/pixellations during the first half, but the dropouts became so frequent in the 2nd half, we had to switch to the analog broadcast.

Anyone else have a similar experience?

Was there some weather up on Mt. Wilson that caused the problems? I thought that since my antenna was inside the attic, that wind alone wouldn't affect my signal.

What was your OTA reception like during the superbowl? I was in Culver City, and have an attic mounted antenna, so it was shielded from the weather. The skys were clear, but it was windy. We had a few dropouts/pixellations during the first half, but the dropouts became so frequent in the 2nd half, we had to switch to the analog broadcast.

Anyone else have a similar experience?

Was there some weather up on Mt. Wilson that caused the problems? I thought that since my antenna was inside the attic, that wind alone wouldn't affect my signal.

Why yes I did!! It was frequent enough to drive my wife absolutely bonkers. I went out to the antenna mount and attempted to resight the antenna to improve things with absolutely no luck and during the third and early parts of the fourth quarter the signal was beyond atrocious.

It eased up from the midpoint of the fourth quarter onwards and signal dropouts were non-existant the last 4 minutes of the game forward.

Odd thing is that we have a Silver Sensor in our bedroom and that thing held steady between 84 and 86 the entire game in there. But for our room mounted antenna that brings pretty much everything else in at 100%, it was bouncing all over the place between 86 and 73 and then would drop out with drops down to 65, 62 and then down into the 20's and to zero before bopping back up again.

On the plus side, at least you know it wasn't just you.

I thought I read KNBC would be doing local HD newscasts before the end of 2007? Anyone know anything?

I emailed the station at the beginning of the year. The news director Robert Long, wrote back saying:

NBC decided to spend its money in other ways and is just getting
around to HD. I think you will appreciate how we handle the new aspect
ratio.

NBC is just finishing up the conversion of WMAQ NBC5 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12765725#post12765725) in Chicago. So hopefully KNBC is next. I wouldn't be suprised when they do make the switch to HD News they will probably do it cheaply like their local sister station Telemundo 52 HD (in the same building) or KTLA. They only have there studio camera shots in HD. But we will see.

I'm in Rancho Santa Margarita (92688 on the northwest side), and am using a CM 4228 + 7777 in my attic. I had been getting good reception on some of the LA HD channels, but 7, 11, 28 were erratic at times. Only one time had I been able to receive 13. Yesterday I moved my attic antenna about 20 feet to the north and the reception quality increased quite a bit on the problem channels. The antenna went from being close to an attic furnace (to the west of the antenna) to being northeast of it, but it is now closer to a steep slope that blocks Mt Wilson.

Using a Hauppauge HVR1600 with the WinTV Digital Signal Strength Indicator (from http://www.hauppauge.com/pages/support/support_hvr1600.html, shows SNR and errors), I measured the before and after signal strengths:
Ch....before..after
02.1 - 22.0 - 25.6
04.1 - 25.5 - 26.9
05.1 - 25.8 - 26.4
07.1 - 15.0 - 22.6 with many errors reported before the move
09.1 - 25.6 - 26
11.1 - 13.0 - 20 with many errors reported before the move, wouldn't lock in
28.1 - 15.0 - 22 with many errors reported before the move
50.1 - 25.2 - 27

I don't have data for 13-1 because the PC tuner didn't catch it in its scan. My TV, however, is now able to pick it up, but it is erratic.

Anyway, this shows that moving an antenna a few feet horizontally can make a big difference.

I live in Los Feliz, (zip 90027) right on Los Feliz Blvd. I ran a check on TV fool and I'm not sure what the numbers are saying. All the networks are showing -45 to -59 signal strength and according to the faq that means I should be able to get reception with a table top antenna. I'm quite surprised by the good numbers since I'm literally right at the bottom of the hills of griffith park and if I look out my balcony I can see Mt. Wilson but the hills around me are partially blocking the mountain. Is TVfool taking terrain into consideration?

Does this mean I should just go to radio shack and pick up one of the old circular antennas and give it a go? I live in an apartment building so if I do go with an outdoor antenna it's going to be on my balcony (2nd floor of 2 story building) but if I can just use an indoor one I may as well try that. We do have an old school antenna on the top of the building but when I hooked it up I could only get the VHF 2-13 channels and they came in pretty poorly except for ABC which was perfect. I got nothing for UHF so I'm guessing it's a VHF only antenna on top. It's my understanding that all the HD channels are UHF though. I'm getting an HD tv next week so I can't test those out yet.

Am I reading the numbers right? Also, would I need any VHF reception? I'm just concerned with the HD channels.

I live in Los Feliz, (zip 90027) right on Los Feliz Blvd. I ran a check on TV fool and I'm not sure what the numbers are saying. All the networks are showing -45 to -59 signal strength and according to the faq that means I should be able to get reception with a table top antenna. I'm quite surprised by the good numbers since I'm literally right at the bottom of the hills of griffith park and if I look out my balcony I can see Mt. Wilson but the hills around me are partially blocking the mountain. Is TVfool taking terrain into consideration?You say you see Mt. Wilson AND the hills are in the way. So since you see it, you must see the top ridge where the towers are which would then be line-of-site signal for you. The hills would not be in the way of the direct signal (ignoring weird diffractions/reflections, etc.). Dan

You say you see Mt. Wilson AND the hills are in the way. So since you see it, you must see the top ridge where the towers are which would then be line-of-site signal for you. The hills would not be in the way of the direct signal (ignoring weird diffractions/reflections, etc.). Dan

So basically if I can see the actual antennas I should be fine? If that's the case (and it is), should I just try to get a indoor UHF tabletop style antenna? And if so, any recomendations on what to try? My only real alternative is a small antenna for the balcony since the roof antenna apparently is VHF only.

So basically if I can see the actual antennas I should be fine? If that's the case (and it is), should I just try to get a indoor UHF tabletop style antenna? And if so, any recomendations on what to try? My only real alternative is a small antenna for the balcony since the roof antenna apparently is VHF only.
The "silver sensor" type is very popular and looks kind of neat sitting out. The "bow-tie" or actually probably a double bow-tie would probably work plenty well. There are actually plans to make one around. But, if you buy one that is easy to package back up for a clean return you can try a store bought one out and know quickly. Others would be more knowledgable than I.
/Dan

Has anyone else noticed an improvement in KCOP-DT lately? From one of my 2 sites, KABC has been more difficult to receive of late. Perhaps it is just a fluke, or perhaps KCOP did something. I am now able to get KCOP with an un-amplified Silver Sensor in Irvine, in the 19-20dB (SNR) range.

What in the world is wrong with KCET ch.28.1 these days? They insist on broadcasting many of their widescreen and even HD material in a tiny window in the middle of the screen! The programs are letterboxed within a 4:3 rectangle, so that it is almost like peeping at the program through a tiny keyhole!! Most recent example of this was last night's Independent Lens about Enron which was listed in the TV Guide EPG as being in high definition!

Apparently they do not care about their viewers. I think it takes a lot of gall for them to do this and then ask their viewers for financial support!

What in the world is wrong with KCET ch.28.1 these days? They insist on broadcasting many of their widescreen and even HD material in a tiny window in the middle of the screen! The programs are letterboxed within a 4:3 rectangle, so that it is almost like peeping at the program through a tiny keyhole!! Most recent example of this was last night's Independent Lens about Enron which was listed in the TV Guide EPG as being in high definition!

Apparently they do not care about their viewers. I think it takes a lot of gall for them to do this and then ask their viewers for financial support!

Be careful, you may get "Pledged". But then, I agree with you, soooo. It really is sad, they used to be pretty much HD 24-7 then, nada. Yet they still run many minutes of commercials per show, but they're a "Public" station.
:confused:

Did a rescan yesterday and found some changes I thought I'd pass along.
1. KDOC seems to have added another channel to their lineup, 56.3
2. KTLA-CW has finally stopped transmitting 5.5, hopefully giving that bandwidth to their main channel 5.1
3. KOCE 50.1 seems to look better to my eye the last couple of days. Perhaps my eyes are deceiving me but, the picture looks much more sharp and vivid and there appears to be a little less macroblocking. If I has to guess I'd say the channel bandwidth the channel is getting went from ~8M to about 10 - 12M.

If anyone has a PC tuner card and wouldn't mind measuring the bandwidth on 5.1 and 50.1 we can know for sure if their bandwidth has in fact increased.

Rudy

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5123/ktla2008feb17gw8.th.jpg (http://img407.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ktla2008feb17gw8.jpg)

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/5913/koce2008feb17lt0.th.jpg (http://img252.imageshack.us/my.php?image=koce2008feb17lt0.jpg)

So basically if I can see the actual antennas I should be fine? If that's the case (and it is), should I just try to get a indoor UHF tabletop style antenna? And if so, any recomendations on what to try? My only real alternative is a small antenna for the balcony since the roof antenna apparently is VHF only.

VHF isn't needed for the next 12 months, but 7, 9, 11 & 13 will be returning to their analog VHF stations next year.

A Silver Sensor will probably work for now, but you will most likely need to diplex in some rabbit ears by next year. There is a Silver Sensor clone by Terk that has rabbit ears, but I have not tried it. A $10 rabbit ear/loop combo (un-amped) can be tried as well. I have had some success with these.

My tests at 43 and 51 miles have shown the CM4221 4-bay to be a poor performer for channel 7. It's too bad ABC O&O stations have a corporate policy to go back to 7 if that is what they used for analog. 2 bay antennas, such as the CM4220 have even poorer results for VHF. Only 13 will probably be viable for that one on my tests. The much larger 8-bay 4228, should fare much better.

So, yes, (sadly) VHF will be needed again soon. The primary advantage of VHF (longer range) is reduced with a 5500' site such as Mt. Wilson. However, some areas behind hills, such as Burbank should see an improvement for the VHF DTV channels however.

Did a rescan yesterday and found some changes I thought I'd pass along.
1. KDOC seems to have added another channel to their lineup, 56.3
2. KTLA-CW has finally stopped transmitting 5.5, hopefully giving that bandwidth to their main channel 5.1
3. KOCE 50.1 seems to look better to my eye the last couple of days. Perhaps my eyes are deceiving me but, the picture looks much more sharp and vivid and there appears to be a little less macroblocking. If I has to guess I'd say the channel bandwidth the channel is getting went from ~8M to about 10 - 12M.

If anyone has a PC tuner card and wouldn't mind measuring the bandwidth on 5.1 and 50.1 we can know for sure if their bandwidth has in fact increased.

Rudy

I agree with you about KOCE! I noticed this last night while watching the "Warplane" series on 50.1. As I was mulling over in my mind how KOCE always seemed to look noticeably softer than KCET on the same material (on those infrequent occasions when KCET allows its viewers to see a decent HD picture!!!) I suddenly came to the realization "Hey, this looks pretty good!" I too would be very much interested to see any "before and after" bandwidth measurements of KOCE's signal. :)

With regard to your items #'s 1 and 2, I have not made any observations, other than noticing that tuning in to 5.5 has shown a black screen for some time now.

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/5123/ktla2008feb17gw8.th.jpg (http://img407.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ktla2008feb17gw8.jpg)

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/5913/koce2008feb17lt0.th.jpg (http://img252.imageshack.us/my.php?image=koce2008feb17lt0.jpg)
Thank you Jeff this is really great news I think.
I agree with you about KOCE! I noticed this last night while watching the "Warplane" series on 50.1. As I was mulling over in my mind how KOCE always seemed to look noticeably softer than KCET on the same material (on those infrequent occasions when KCET allows its viewers to see a decent HD picture!!!) I suddenly came to the realization "Hey, this looks pretty good!" I too would be very much interested to see any "before and after" bandwidth measurements of KOCE's signal. :)

On January 24 blue_z measured KOCE's bandwidth and it was at 8.6 megabits, today Jeff's reading shows 10.34. That's a 17% improvement, if my calculations are correct. The chief engineer at KOCE is incredibly nice and very responsive. It looks like they are finally getting rid of some of the bugs in their bandwidth sharing software. Makes me happy I'm a member.

With regard to your items #'s 1 and 2, I have not made any observations, other than noticing that tuning in to 5.5 has shown a black screen for some time now.
Harrison, this is why I recommend that folks to do a rescan of their OTA channels. Channel 5.5 is now gone completely. So the bandwidth of 17.39 on the main channel (5.1) certainly confirms it. I believe only CBS has a higher bitrate than this.:eek: Makes me wish CW had something that I would want to watch.:p

Rudy

VHF isn't needed for the next 12 months, but 7, 9, 11 & 13 will be returning to their analog VHF stations next year.

A Silver Sensor will probably work for now, but you will most likely need to diplex in some rabbit ears by next year. There is a Silver Sensor clone by Terk that has rabbit ears, but I have not tried it. A $10 rabbit ear/loop combo (un-amped) can be tried as well. I have had some success with these.

My tests at 43 and 51 miles have shown the CM4221 4-bay to be a poor performer for channel 7. It's too bad ABC O&O stations have a corporate policy to go back to 7 if that is what they used for analog. 2 bay antennas, such as the CM4220 have even poorer results for VHF. Only 13 will probably be viable for that one on my tests. The much larger 8-bay 4228, should fare much better.

So, yes, (sadly) VHF will be needed again soon. The primary advantage of VHF (longer range) is reduced with a 5500' site such as Mt. Wilson. However, some areas behind hills, such as Burbank should see an improvement for the VHF DTV channels however.

Thanks for the advice. I ended up getting the terk powered indoor antenna and couldn't believe the reception. I'm 15 miles away from mt. wilson and channels 2-13 are all 85% plus with half of them at 100%. The only channel that comes in spotty is 13 where I get about 60% but that's fine. I don't see why that one would be so much lower. Don't all the major channels broadcast from mount wilson? Why would one be so much lower - lower watts?


Good luck with your antennas.

On January 24 blue_z measured KOCE's bandwidth and it was at 8.6 megabits, today Jeff's reading shows 10.34. That's a 17% improvement, if my calculations are correct. The chief engineer at KOCE is incredibly nice and very responsive. It looks like they are finally getting rid of some of the bugs in their bandwidth sharing software. Makes me happy I'm a member.

Harrison, this is why I recommend that folks to do a rescan of their OTA channels. Channel 5.5 is now gone completely. So the bandwidth of 17.39 on the main channel (5.1) certainly confirms it. I believe only CBS has a higher bitrate than this.:eek: Makes me wish CW had something that I would want to watch.:p

Rudy


Thank you for your information on KOCE's bandwidth. This explains the sharper images and the fact that I have not noticed the heavy pixellation that used to be there. I have the highest regard for them and look forward to their offerings in the future. My big gripe is with KCET, which offers good video quality on those infrequent occasions when they don't foul up the picture by shrinking them down to a tiny 16:9 window in the middle of the screen. Do they really expect anyone to watch this!? Also, they mostly tie up their wideband 28.1 channel with SD content. I doubt if many 3 year-olds really care that they are watching their SD cartoons with 1080i video!

I certainly agree with you about the lack of good content in CW. Even their news is mediocre, despite good in-studio video quality. Alas for the days of Hal Fishman!

posting here as well since the DBS thread appears inactive.....

is anyone else in the L.A. area experiencing pixilating on DTV HD locals from DirecTV? i used to have perfect reception, but then a few months back things started to go awry. i've been waiting for things to just iron themselves out, but they aren't getting any better. just for argument sake, i recently had my dish realigned (3 times) and 3 new LNBs installed. my cables now go direct from the dish to 2 HR20s -- 4 cables from the dish direct to 4 inputs on 2 receivers. i've had a lot of experience with ground loops and conflicting components via my video editing suite. i'm quite confident the issue is with DTVs encoding, not an anomaly or conflict within my setup. also, when i get the pixilating, it happens on both HR20s at the same time, in the same spot and looks exactly the same. 1 HR20 is the original i got back in march and the other is brand new. i don't think either is the culprit, they're both just recording what they see via the dish.

below are a couple clips i posted to youtube. i'm not sure what sort of answers i'm looking for since i've tried everything and am certain it's a DTV issue. but someone over at dbstalk suggested i post here and also said maybe i should write the local network and alert them to the issue. if others are experiencing the same thing, hearing form more of us would carry more weight. here's the links to my samples:

LOST pixilating on DTV HD - Click here to watch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBrwGYbAeoA)

Vegas pixilating clip. Aired 2/15/08 Click to watch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15rMFyhl6f0)


let me know your thoughts.

Hi there

I don't watch "vegas", but I recorded the 2/14 HD OTA broadcast of "Lost", and there are no PQ problems like in your clip.

Regards

posting here as well since the DBS thread appears inactive.....

is anyone else in the L.A. area experiencing pixilating on DTV HD locals from DirecTV? i used to have perfect reception, but then a few months back things started to go awry. i've been waiting for things to just iron themselves out, but they aren't getting any better. just for argument sake, i recently had my dish realigned (3 times) and 3 new LNBs installed. my cables now go direct from the dish to 2 HR20s -- 4 cables from the dish direct to 4 inputs on 2 receivers. i've had a lot of experience with ground loops and conflicting components via my video editing suite. i'm quite confident the issue is with DTVs encoding, not an anomaly or conflict within my setup. also, when i get the pixilating, it happens on both HR20s at the same time, in the same spot and looks exactly the same. 1 HR20 is the original i got back in march and the other is brand new. i don't think either is the culprit, they're both just recording what they see via the dish.

below are a couple clips i posted to youtube. i'm not sure what sort of answers i'm looking for since i've tried everything and am certain it's a DTV issue. but someone over at dbstalk suggested i post here and also said maybe i should write the local network and alert them to the issue. if others are experiencing the same thing, hearing form more of us would carry more weight. here's the links to my samples:

LOST pixilating on DTV HD - Click here to watch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBrwGYbAeoA)

Vegas pixilating clip. Aired 2/15/08 Click to watch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15rMFyhl6f0)


let me know your thoughts.

I have noticed a lot of pixilation similar to what you show. But I am not sure this is a DirecTV problem. The pixelation appears on NBC and ABC. I have tried switching to the OTA alternatives (4-1 & 7-1). As far as I can tell, the same pixelation appears on the OTA source, suggesting that the problem exists at the source.

Unfortunately, I am not set up to do a side-by-side comparison of OTA with the DirecTV equivalents. If anyone has the capability, I'd be interested in learning the results.

Burt

I get a lot of drop outs on KTLA 5 when I watch the news in the morning. It happens every time. I've noticed bizarre pixelations during House on Fox 11, but was writing that off to DLP rainbows, but actually think not.

I have noticed a lot of pixilation similar to what you show. But I am not sure this is a DirecTV problem. The pixelation appears on NBC and ABC. I have tried switching to the OTA alternatives (4-1 & 7-1). As far as I can tell, the same pixelation appears on the OTA source, suggesting that the problem exists at the source.NBC uses a low-bitrate distribution system to save money (feeds three MPEG-2 feeds, two HD and one SD, into a single transponder, vs. the usual practice of one single MPEG-2 HD feed alone onto a transponder), which hurts PQ. From there, KNBC adds one subchannel, which makes things even worse.

ABC's distribution feed is clean. However, KABC uses older encoders, and adds two subchannels to the final ATSC feed. The final HD bitrate is too low for proper picture quality.

At this time, Harmonic is the only company I know of marketing two-pass MPEG-2 HD encoder systems that would correct the issue at KABC (KNBC needs a bit more work). Hopefully, Harris and Tandberg improve their encoders soon, and NBC either gathers up a second transponder for HD delivery, or institutes VC-1 or AVC encoding in place of their current MPEG-2 HD distribution system.

KCET OTA
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5505/kcet2008feb20cs3.th.jpg (http://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kcet2008feb20cs3.jpg)

KCET OTA
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5505/kcet2008feb20cs3.th.jpg (http://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kcet2008feb20cs3.jpg)
Yikes. Did I read this correctly? KCET is suffocating their HD feed down to 6.54M? Wow that will probably be a new low.

Rudy

hey everyone. thanks for responding.

.....As far as I can tell, the same pixelation appears on the OTA source, suggesting that the problem exists at the source.....Burt

i was able to do a test comparing OTA and DTV side by side, and in my case, the problem only existed via DTV. not sure if this makes it DTVs fault or the local broadcasters. last night, Idol was almost glitch free for a change. just 2 spots where it quivered for a sec, but the rest was fine. this was a first for this season.

so is there a solution to this? someone at dbstalk suggested i write the Chief Engineer at the local broadcast stations and make them aware of the issue. is that realistic, or are they likely aware and just choosing not to do anything about it for whatever reason? if i contact them, i was thinking it would be best to gather samples first and then send them a dvd of their own pixilating shows. if anyone here thinks that's a good idea and would like to contribute clips or anything, please let me know. if you guys think it's a waste of time and i should just ride this out, please let me know that too. don't wanna waste my time if it's pointless.

on the flipside, i just bought a Winegard GS2200 and hoping i made the right choice. if it works, i'll just stick with OTA but am nervous about trusting the reliability. was thinking about also getting an indoor antenna to combine it with but not sure which is best. was looking at the Wineguard SS-3000 but not sure. probably just see what the GS2200 does first.

Does anybody know when KNBC will get their act together and broadcast the news in HD like every other network here in the Los Angeles market.

KCET OTA
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/5505/kcet2008feb20cs3.th.jpg (http://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kcet2008feb20cs3.jpg)
Try it again....null packets (0x1fff) indicate that there is plenty of unused capacity,
probably due to a lo-rate program source.

Should be sometime this year, they already did KVEA.

I remember seeing something about it in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=191672&page=112

Yikes. Did I read this correctly? KCET is suffocating their HD feed down to 6.54M? Wow that will probably be a new low.

Rudy

That was when the program was window boxed. Low bit rate (6.54 Mbps) when black bars are on all four sides.

Here it is today with a HD program (10.57 Mbps).
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3884/kcet2008feb21cs9.th.jpg (http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kcet2008feb21cs9.jpg)

That was when the program was window boxed. Low bit rate (6.54 Mbps) when black bars are on all four sides.

Here it is today with a HD program (10.57 Mbps).
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3884/kcet2008feb21cs9.th.jpg (http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kcet2008feb21cs9.jpg)
Hmmm OK. Not exactly stellar but, ohhh well. Boy these subchannels are really proving to be evil.:(

Rudy

Still has nearly 2 Mbps of Null Packets....unused capacity....
The source is probably bit rate limited to begin with....

i know!!!!!!! They are like 2 - 3 years behind every other news channel in l.a.

:rolleyes:

That was when the program was window boxed. Low bit rate (6.54 Mbps) when black bars are on all four sides...




That is KCET's normal modus operandi! :cool:

KTTV/KCOP are also not HD yet.

That was when the program was window boxed. Low bit rate (6.54 Mbps) when black bars are on all four sides.

Here it is today with a HD program (10.57 Mbps).
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3884/kcet2008feb21cs9.th.jpg (http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kcet2008feb21cs9.jpg)

I don't really see the sense of these instantaneous measurements, since just about everybody is using variable bitrates. If you took another reading half a second later you'd get a completely different number. The only way to get a sense of the actual bitrate would be to take an average over time.

(Or is that what that software does?)

The only way to get a sense of the actual bitrate would be to take an average over time.

(Or is that what that software does?)

Hi there

The KOCE-DT bit rate measurement that I posted last month is derived from a 2 minute recording, and is the average bit rate for that recording. Another 1-minute recording was within 5%.

Most "rate" measuring equipment or software use a time interval to capture, then count the events (e.g. frequency counters). "Instantaneous" measurement is inherently imprecise, unless you have big bucks to spend.

Regards

BTW, analysis of the ATSC transport stream, like the output of TSReader, cannot be instantaneous but has to be gathered over a period of time. There is actually only one data channel, and the various video, audio and control streams are packetized and have to be de-multiplexed at the receiver. It's the digital equivalent to analog time-division multiplexing. At an arbitrary point in time, the bits captured could belong to any one of the various streams.

I'm not positive, but pretty sure that the ATSC data rate is someting like 20 megabits per second. The data bits are arriving at a steady rate. The "bit rate" of the video stream is determined by the amount of bits (the sizes of the packets) for that video stream per unit time.

Gotcha. Thanks.

KTTV/KCOP are also not HD yet.

It doesn't matter to me when they broadcast in HD. I watch the news for information, not for picture quality. And since local TV news does such a bad job of local news reporting, I'd rather they focus on that, first.

Local issue. Topics merged.

Does anybody know when KNBC will get their act together and broadcast the news in HD like every other network here in the Los Angeles market.

I guess they don't see a need to upgrade the old studio when they are already considering moving to a new studio at the top of the Universal City Metro Red Line station by 2011. I can't guess why KVEA (Telemundo 52) went HD first before KNBC does when they both broadcast from the same Burbank lot.

Does anybody know when KNBC will get their act together and broadcast the news in HD like every other network here in the Los Angeles market.

Pretty soon KNBC will be able to advertise itself as Southern California's only news in low definition!

mikemikeb :NBC uses a low-bitrate distribution system to save money (feeds three MPEG-2 feeds, two HD and one SD, into a single transponder, vs. the usual practice of one single MPEG-2 HD feed alone onto a transponder), which hurts PQ. From there, KNBC adds one subchannel, which makes things even worse.

ABC's distribution feed is clean. However, KABC uses older encoders, and adds two subchannels to the final ATSC feed. The final HD bitrate is too low for proper picture quality.

At this time, Harmonic is the only company I know of marketing two-pass MPEG-2 HD encoder systems that would correct the issue at KABC (KNBC needs a bit more work). Hopefully, Harris and Tandberg improve their encoders soon, and NBC either gathers up a second transponder for HD delivery, or institutes VC-1 or AVC encoding in place of their current MPEG-2 HD distribution system.
Well,this explains why the replays of Notre Dame football and NHL hockey and other sports events from NBC looks so pixellated on Universal HD.Even NBC highlights shown on ESPN HD and elsewhere contains more pixellation than other sources.Our best evidence to date was that Giants/Patriots simulcast from the NFL network where the NBC feed was clearly inferior to CBS.I said then that i wish KNBC would consider changing to 720p if they keep insisting on carrying these pathetic subchannels.I still have KNBC recordings from 2004 on one of my dvr's(before the sub channel crap) and they look terrific!I really hope there will be a change at NBC soon so we all can enjoy the upcoming Olympic Games.

Found something interesting on my Tivo Series 3 today. A new message stating that I had a new channel that was added. This is normally not a big deal, as Charter cable often adds and deletes channels. But, and here is the kicker, the channel that was added was 8.1, and there was no corresponding NTSC channel 8!

So, I checked it out and sure enough, the new channel is called KFLA-DT and they have a web site too:

http://www.kfla.tv/

The web site shows that it is the newest station in LA, and that it is also the first digital only station. That seemed worth mentioning. Even though the web site shows an 8.2 which seems to be some kind of shopping channel, my Tivo doesn't yet show that channel as being available. It will probably come later.

Can't wait until February of 2009 when I get the message that all the other analog channels have disappeared :)

RT

Thanks for the heads-up but I'm not able to receive it, even using an amplified Channel Master 4228 UHF multi-bay Antenna. I get everything fine here except for KCOP, KLCS and now KFLA.

KFLA was noted a while back. However, it has a deep null towards South OC and is on RF 8, which means a good VHF antenna is needed to pick it up. For those in the service area, it may provide a preview of what will need to be done to get 7,9,11 & 13 next year.

KFLA flash-cut to digital in 2006, so it's been a while since they had an NTSC signal, which I believe was on 65 (in Palmdale).

I'm glad someone can get it. :)

KFLA-DT (CH8) is NOT representative of future DTV ops on CH7-13.

Authorized ERP is a miniscule 0.3 kW with a directional antenna pattern:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1208527.html

High power analog CH8 from Mt. Soledad in San Diego can also
interfere with KFLA reception along the coast.

KFLA-DT (CH8) is NOT representative of future DTV ops on CH7-13.

Authorized ERP is a miniscule 0.3 kW with a directional antenna pattern:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1208527.html


Well, if one can get this, they are very likely to get the four (7,9,11&13) that will move back to VHF. In my case, as I am clearly not in the service area, it's of no value to determine my prospects for next year.

I agree that it should be much easier to get 7,9,11 & 13 than KFLA-LD.

i just noticed 8.1 the other day. i couldn't get it with my other crap antenna. but this new Winegard GS2200 has really impressed me. i get 100% signal strength on my HR20 on nearly all channels and only a few others are hovering at about 80-90%. i've actually stopped watching all DTV local broadcasts and now just watch OTA. i know it sounds stupid, but i find it so amazing that this antenna works better than DTV. i guess my brain finds it easier to accept futeristic technology that revieces signals from outer space, and i'm still bogged down by memories of rabbit ears and ghosted TV reception. i find this antenna far more amazing than DBS these days. yes, dumb, i know. but there it is.

KNBC is NOT moving back to channel 4. They are staying channel 36.

i know it sounds stupid, but i find it so amazing that this antenna works better than DTV.

You're using "DTV" to mean "DirecTV," right?

Unfortunately, "DTV" is also an abbreviation for "digital television," which is what you're getting with your antenna, so I was briefly confused. :)

KNBC is NOT moving back to channel 4. They are staying channel 36.

I assume Falcon_77 meant "the 4 stations that will move back to VHF" (that is, Channels 7, 9, 11, and 13) -- nothing to do with Channel 4.

mikemikeb :
Well,this explains why the replays of Notre Dame football and NHL hockey and other sports events from NBC looks so pixellated on Universal HD.You mean the Universal HD cable channel? That channel is on a separate transponder. The official NBC HD transponder contains "only" the Eastern/Central Time Zones HD feed, a Pacific Time Zone HD feed, and a nationwide WeatherPlus SD feed.

I assume Falcon_77 meant "the 4 stations that will move back to VHF" (that is, Channels 7, 9, 11, and 13) -- nothing to do with Channel 4.

Yes. I have edited that post for clarity. None of the local full power stations are going back to Low-VHF and I hope not to see any Low-VHF DTV stations here in the future.

Yes. I have edited that post for clarity. None of the local full power stations are going back to Low-VHF and I hope not to see any Low-VHF DTV stations here in the future.

But you KNOW some low power operator (or maybe even 6 of them) is going to swing in here and try it anyway. Those channels are gonna be WIDE open after next February, just about nationwide. Low-VHF could become the new community television band. Or religion and home shopping band. Whatever.

mikemikeb:You mean the Universal HD cable channel? That channel is on a separate transponder. The official NBC HD transponder contains "only" the Eastern/Central Time Zones HD feed, a Pacific Time Zone HD feed, and a nationwide WeatherPlus SD feed.
I would think Universal HD is on a different transponder but it seems that they capture live sporting events from NBC's feed because these events(even golf) contains much more pixellation than the regular series and movie programming shown on Universal HD.As i said before,one can also see more pixellation on ESPN HD's sports highlights when they come from NBC compared to CBS,FOX,ABC etc.
Or is there another explanation?

You're using "DTV" to mean "DirecTV," right?

Unfortunately, "DTV" is also an abbreviation for "digital television," which is what you're getting with your antenna, so I was briefly confused. :)

ooops!! too many acronyms. yes, i meant directv. i'll try to remember for next time

But you KNOW some low power operator (or maybe even 6 of them) is going to swing in here and try it anyway. Those channels are gonna be WIDE open after next February, just about nationwide. Low-VHF could become the new community television band. Or religion and home shopping band. Whatever.
Since there are big problems putting unlicensed "White Space Devices"
(on multiple channels) in between active DTV channels, CH2-6 would be a good
place for them--esp. since WSD are intended to provide inexpensive broadband,
where IP repeats can readily overcome impulse noise.

Since there are big problems putting unlicensed "White Space Devices"
(on multiple channels) in between active DTV channels, CH2-6 would be a good
place for them--esp. since WSD are intended to provide inexpensive broadband,
where IP repeats can readily overcome impulse noise.

I agree with this. A packet-based network can overcome noise errors relatively easily. I think this is the only place for WUD's, instead of giving them free reign over the entire broadcast spectrum.

I just don't see LP stations on 2-6 having a chance to punch through the noise. However, it would probably be ok for stations that just want to get on cable due to must carry rules and don't worry about having OTA's viewers... what an irony that would be. :rolleyes:

knbc have been "advertising" the DTV 2009 changover in 30s spots

and have set this up

http://www.knbc.com/digital/index.html

as they seem to be aware of "digital" I wonder why they find it so hard to actually broadcast it competently?

they still have so many audio issues, for 5.1, level etc.

and reading above posts, pq issues too

In on-going FCC-OET tests, White Space Devices are falling on their face (again):
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6539694.html
Reportedly finds signals that aren't there and fails to find signals that are....

Just a reminder...WSD also leak into and will interfere with Cable STBs,
SAT Receivers and DCR/iDCR HDTVs if they are anywhere in vicinity.
So they can't be used like Wi-Fi is used today as originally envisioned,
incl. game system controllers and in-home device-to-device links.

THERE ARE NO WHITE SPACES ON SAT & CABLE COAX.

The only thing that made much sense to me was a MediaFlo type
approach--transmitting to users on unused TV channel(s), with reverse
link via 3G Cell Phone (or other) network....which would fulfill their
PRIMARY requirement to provide low-cost, long-range broadband service.
[Sounds like a normal licensed use of TV bands on assigned channel(s)....]

The "unlicensed" free-for-all feature is problematic, cuz they'll never reliably
"detect" low power mobile microphone systems that come and go as they are keyed...
[Multiple vendors in same city might also fight over the same channels...]

And why should WSD manufacturers get spectrum for FREE, when 700-MHz
band auction winners pay Millions of dollars to do essentially same thing.....

knbc have been "advertising" the DTV 2009 changover in 30s spots

and have set this up

http://www.knbc.com/digital/index.html

as they seem to be aware of "digital" I wonder why they find it so hard to actually broadcast it competently?

they still have so many audio issues, for 5.1, level etc.

and reading above posts, pq issues too


Also, KNBC apparently doesn't care if nobody watches their news anymore, since so many rival stations are broadcasting theirs in high definition!

Also, KNBC apparently doesn't care if nobody watches their news anymore, since so many rival stations are broadcasting theirs in high definition!

Maybe KNBC thinks they are in HD... well, at least compared to their 4.4 news sub-channel. Ouch! :eek:

On a related note, it makes me wonder when the CBS national Evening News will be in HD. NBC is HD on the national scene, which makes the local differences even more stark. KCBS makes CBS look bad and KNBC makes NBC look good. Go figure.

The "unlicensed" free-for-all feature is problematic, cuz they'll never reliably
"detect" low power mobile microphone systems that come and go as they are keyed...
[Multiple vendors in same city might also fight over the same channels...]

And why should WSD manufacturers get spectrum for FREE, when 700-MHz
band auction winners pay Millions of dollars to do essentially same thing.....

More good points.

If it takes a CM4228 or other large antenna to "detect" and receive a TV station signal, how can we expect a small, indoor antenna to replicate this sensitivity before it begins blasting and ruining reception of weaker TV stations? WUD's/WSD's may as well be to TV what light pollution is to Astronomy.

I don't see any reason why WUD's should be allowed in the broadcast spectrum, since we are already giving a significant portion of the former spectrum over for commercial use as it is.

ooops!! too many acronyms. yes, i meant directv. i'll try to remember for next time

Commonly accepted abbreviation for DirecTV is D* ;)

New to forum. Excuse my "posting naivety".

So I watch OTA HDTV from all major networks from my 3rd story apartment building in Hollywood. I use a simple Pinnacle PCTV HD USB stick with Vista Media Center. I replaced the bundled antenna with a Radio Shack version which memorizes the channel positions and re-adjusts the antenna position and gain. Antenna is by window. I've used the antennaweb.org thing. I'm feeling good. UP UNTIL YESTERDAY.

OTA reception has been kind. CBS, ABC, NBC, FOX (and some other locals) all come in perfectly - all green bars until yesterday when Fox (kttv - channel 11 locally, and kcop, channel 13 locally) complete went dead on me. No reception. Just GONE! I've tried every variation of positioning, gain... etc. NO Luck. Nothing changed on my end. ( antenna didn't move. weather is fine.)

Ok... WTF? Anyone else with me? Ideas?

Thanks.

New to forum. Excuse my "posting naivety".

So I watch OTA HDTV from all major networks from my 3rd story apartment building in Hollywood. I use a simple Pinnacle PCTV HD USB stick with Vista Media Center. I replaced the bundled antenna with a Radio Shack version which memorizes the channel positions and re-adjusts the antenna position and gain. Antenna is by window. I've used the antennaweb.org thing. I'm feeling good. UP UNTIL YESTERDAY.

OTA reception has been kind. CBS, ABC, NBC, FOX (and some other locals) all come in perfectly - all green bars until yesterday when Fox (kttv - channel 11 locally, and kcop, channel 13 locally) complete went dead on me. No reception. Just GONE! I've tried every variation of positioning, gain... etc. NO Luck. Nothing changed on my end. ( antenna didn't move. weather is fine.)

Ok... WTF? Anyone else with me? Ideas?

Thanks.
I'm still getting both here is West LA.
Try your other antenna see if that makes any difference.

Rudy

The antenna had not been moved. Other than 11 and 13 (in LA), all other channels are fine.

I think I've stumbled on the answer though.

According to "Green Button" - starting 3/21/08 in L.A. EPG data has been corrupt for KTTV and KCOP. Probably in the last EPG update it downloaded the bad tuning info.

Link: http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/251885.aspx


KTTV: should be 11.1 physical 65, in EPG its physical 11
KCOP: should be 13.1 physical 66, in EPG its physical 13
<-the above 2 were correct but went wrong since last week


Following advice from prior post, I found C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs\atscprefs.xml

And corrected 11.1 tune 11 to 11.1 tune 65, and the same for 13.1 to 66. Saved the XML file and ran Vista Media Center.

And then CRASH CITY. Vista MCE didn't like that I'd changed it's xml data. Now that I know the info is corrupt on two specific stations - I'm wondering what the procedure is to completely wipe out all EPG -and then fix the two problem channels WITHOUT crashing MCE.

Or in a perfect world, can the data service who provides Media Center get their act together?

So anyone on this road with me? Trying to find the step by step guide to correcting the corrupt data in the XML file without crashing... or wiping it clean, and making sure it uses the correct tuning data.

Gonna move media center's xml pref files and see if it will reset itself.

New to forum. Excuse my "posting naivety".

So I watch OTA HDTV from all major networks from my 3rd story apartment building in Hollywood. I use a simple Pinnacle PCTV HD USB stick with Vista Media Center. I replaced the bundled antenna with a Radio Shack version which memorizes the channel positions and re-adjusts the antenna position and gain. Antenna is by window. I've used the antennaweb.org thing. I'm feeling good. UP UNTIL YESTERDAY.

OTA reception has been kind. CBS, ABC, NBC, FOX (and some other locals) all come in perfectly - all green bars until yesterday when Fox (kttv - channel 11 locally, and kcop, channel 13 locally) complete went dead on me. No reception. Just GONE! I've tried every variation of positioning, gain... etc. NO Luck. Nothing changed on my end. ( antenna didn't move. weather is fine.)

Ok... WTF? Anyone else with me? Ideas?

Thanks.

You are lucky that you got KCOP 13.1 at all. It went (sic) "complete dead on me" 3 or 4 years ago and has been dead ever since! KTTV is solid here (Granada Hills in the NW SF Valley) most of the time, but is weaker than the other stations (which are quite solid) and can be troublesome occasionally. OTA reception is weather-dependent and is adversely affected by Santa Ana windstorms; less so by rain.

i have the same problem with fox and kcop. i just noticed today when the wife tried to watch american idol. i have 2 fusion 5 tuners and immediately exit vmc and fired up my fusion software. it worked.

its a problem with vista and the guide data. i will try the greenbutton solution later tonight and report back on my results...

New to forum. Excuse my "posting naivety".

So I watch OTA HDTV from all major networks from my 3rd story apartment building in Hollywood. I use a simple Pinnacle PCTV HD USB stick with Vista Media Center. I replaced the bundled antenna with a Radio Shack version which memorizes the channel positions and re-adjusts the antenna position and gain. Antenna is by window. I've used the antennaweb.org thing. I'm feeling good. UP UNTIL YESTERDAY.

OTA reception has been kind. CBS, ABC, NBC, FOX (and some other locals) all come in perfectly - all green bars until yesterday when Fox (kttv - channel 11 locally, and kcop, channel 13 locally) complete went dead on me. No reception. Just GONE! I've tried every variation of positioning, gain... etc. NO Luck. Nothing changed on my end. ( antenna didn't move. weather is fine.)

Ok... WTF? Anyone else with me? Ideas?

Thanks.

I have the same problem, just noticed FOX HD OTA and KCOP HD OTA went dead on me completely the other day. It hasn't been up since.

I have two Hauppauge HVR 1600's.

I'm afraid to try the fix you did as if I screw up the Media Center, my wife will destroy my very being.

Hope someone finds a fix.

i tried the fix from the green button and it works. havent had any issues since i updated the xml file.

http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/247144.aspx

I was trying to watch the Dodgers tonight on KCAL and found that the new score graphic at the top of the screen was way too distracting, I couldn't take my eyes off of it! :(

Does anyone know who I should contact to complain about this? There's no way I can watch the entire season with this thing there.

Pretty soon KNBC will be able to advertise itself as Southern California's only news in low definition!

Well it looks like KTTV/KCOP will be the only one in LOW DEF

http://www.packofseven.tv/tvnt/showthread.php?t=3447

Just this morning on Today In LA Weekend, forecaster Carl Bell said (word by word):

"You know guys, we should let our viewers know this morning that and give a moment of silence to that this is our last broadcast from this set. Were moving to the newsroom and we'll be back here after a few months, and I don't know... Well, I think we should let them know. Were going High-Def in a whole new fancy home!"

They then started clapping and after about 5 seconds, Carl went ahead with his weather report.

Well it looks like KTTV/KCOP will be the only one in LOW DEF

http://www.packofseven.tv/tvnt/showthread.php?t=3447

Just this morning on Today In LA Weekend, forecaster Carl Bell said (word by word):

"You know guys, we should let our viewers know this morning that and give a moment of silence to that this is our last broadcast from this set. Were moving to the newsroom and we'll be back here after a few months, and I don't know... Well, I think we should let them know. Were going High-Def in a whole new fancy home!"

They then started clapping and after about 5 seconds, Carl went ahead with his weather report.

That is good news. I haven't watched KNBC news on 4.1 for several years because of their low definition narrow screen format. It sounds like it will still be at least several months before these changes take place, though.

That is good news. I haven't watched KNBC news on 4.1 for several years because of their low definition narrow screen format. It sounds like it will still be at least several months before these changes take place, though.

Same here. I used to watch KNBC news more than all the rest combined. Now, not at all. News looks better in HD, especially some of the reporters! :cool: Like Jessica Holmes on KTLA!

I too switched from KNBC news to KABC news when KABC went HD. Don't know if I will go back but at least I now have a choice.

Rick R

I was watching "Survivor" last night (on TWC, but it's a local network channel so I assume this is really an OTA subject) and noticed that the audio level on KCBS-DT has been turned WAY DOWN from where it used to be.

KCBS-DT was notorious for having the loudest audio in LA, of all the local networks. And yet last night, it seems like it was turned down maybe 10db from where it used to be. Even commercials were quite reasonable... a bit louder than the show, but still perfectly normal and listenable.

I don't know if this is an isolated situation, something strange about last night, or maybe just for "Survivor". I'll know more when I watch "CSI: original" from last night, because that's always been VERY VERY LOUD (since its audio has always been superb, but recorded "hot" to begin with, and then played back on KCBS-DT at VERY LOUD levels). If it too is finally in the "listenable" range I'd be very very pleased.

Anybody else notice this too?

I was watching "Survivor" last night (on TWC, but it's a local network channel so I assume this is really an OTA subject) and noticed that the audio level on KCBS-DT has been turned WAY DOWN from where it used to be.

KCBS-DT was notorious for having the loudest audio in LA, of all the local networks. And yet last night, it seems like it was turned down maybe 10db from where it used to be. Even commercials were quite reasonable... a bit louder than the show, but still perfectly normal and listenable.

I don't know if this is an isolated situation, something strange about last night, or maybe just for "Survivor". I'll know more when I watch "CSI: original" from last night, because that's always been VERY VERY LOUD (since its audio has always been superb, but recorded "hot" to begin with, and then played back on KCBS-DT at VERY LOUD levels). If it too is finally in the "listenable" range I'd be very very pleased.

Anybody else notice this too?

I have not checiked KCBS in the last couple of days, but I have noticed for a long time that it and its sister station KCAL have had typically much louder audio than other stations; I have also noticed that KOCE 50.1 has typically had much lower audio than anyone else. All of this is a bit annoying, and I really wish that they would establish some sort of standard for audio level. At least they don't compress the audio to death like in analog broadcasting!

Yes! I didn't watch TV Thursday night, but just now, Friday morning, after I received your message, I turned on my HDTV, which uses an over the air antenna, and channels 2 and 9 now have a lower volume, both having volume close to the other channels. Finally!!

Looks like there's a new music video channel on 56-3. Called "Bohemia Digital Music." Has a very fly-by-night vibe to it. Seems to play a lot of Schoolhouse Rock.

(I just report the news, I don't invent it.)

KCBS-DT was notorious for having the loudest audio in LA, of all the local networks. And yet last night, it seems like it was turned down maybe 10db from where it used to be. 10 dB would be 1/10 the volume. I don't think you really meant that much. 3dB reduction is 1/2 the volume. Maybe a 10% reduction is what you meant. I will be checking that closer tonight. KCAL 9 is quite loud and then their news scares you with the opening music running at a high average (compression?) volume, even if the peaks are controlled to a maximum limit, it sounds very loud relative to the rest. /Dan

10 dB would be 1/10 the volume. I don't think you really meant that much.Well, I'm looking at my DBX 14/10 EQ which has an SPL meter (digital number readout), that measures "sound pressure" in dB. It's not determined from a calibrated microphone feeding back the SPL measurement to the box and its display. It's determined directly from the analog input signal passing through the box, from input to output. And it's not a function of the EQ settings (i.e. gain/boost at the 14 frequency bands), it's a function of the raw input signal.

I have all of my levels (on preamp, EQ, Stax headphone amp, etc.) untouched. They are all set exactly where I've decided I'm happiest with the net results out of my Stax headphones when listening to virtually all shows. Some are a bit louder than others (e.g. all CBS shows, until this week) and some are a bit lower (e.g. all NBC shows, period), but on the whole I can listen to any show on any channel and not feel the urgent need to turn up/down the volume on the headphone amp.

So, I know what CBS shows used to read on the SPL meter, and it was typically between 0dB and -10dB (of course there were also very quiet moments down at -20dB to -35dB, and very loud moments at +3dB). Generally, CBS shows are mostly around -8dB for ordinary moments when there is a reasonable amount of sound.

But last night, "Survivor" was somewhere around -17dB on the old SPL meter. Actually it varied mostly between -10dB and -20dB. Hence my comments. Incidentally, this is now very much in line with NBC's levels, on the same SPL meter. Now ABC is the loudest of the three (especially with "Lost", so it seems).

So the dB measurement I'm describing is from the SPL meter on the DBX EQ... and it's quantifiably and digitally visible as I listen, and it's not subjective.

10 dB would be 1/10 the volume. I don't think you really meant that much. 3dB reduction is 1/2 the volume. Maybe a 10% reduction is what you meant. I will be checking that closer tonight. KCAL 9 is quite loud and then their news scares you with the opening music running at a high average (compression?) volume, even if the peaks are controlled to a maximum limit, it sounds very loud relative to the rest. /Dan

If by "volume" you mean power, your statement is correct. However an amplitude (i.e., voltage or current) ratio of 10db represents a ratio of √10 or 3.162. Similarly the amplitude for 3db will be √2 or 1.414. On the other hand, since we perceive acoustical power logarithmically, a 10db increase will only seem about 15% louder at normal listening levels, even though the power increase actually is 10 fold.

From what I have heard, it wouldn't surprise me if 2.1 and 9.1 have actually been 10db louder at times, surprising as it may seem. Anyway, Danke danki6x, vielen Dank!

DSperber - Thank you for your input - I believe your measurements! :)

DSperber: Can you correlate low Stereo levels to the "Missing Center Channel" problem??

DSperber: Can you correlate low Stereo levels to the "Missing Center Channel" problem??I don't think so, but I honestly can't really tell for absolute sure.

I listen through headphones, out of a Pioneer Dolby Headphone processor. This takes the DD5.1 sound and produces 2-channel L/R-stereo for headphones that sort of simulates true surround sound. But it sure sounds to me like all the channels are there. Nothing obviously missing to my ears, and no mis-direction or odd auditory cues which might reflect a missing center channel problem.

Anyway, I've now listened to "CSI:Original", and I am now absolutely positive that KCBS-DT dropped their audio levels substantially. The intro theme song ("Who Are You?", by The Who) is normally VERY VERY VERY LOUD. And tonight it was just blah and bland. Very much diminished in volume... and impact, I might add.

At one point in the show there was a violent explosion out of a motel room that blew all the windows out and sent debris everywhere. Well I just sat there, and didn't even jump when the explosion hit. It really was too low. In fact, overall, I found the audio level for the whole show to be disappointingly low. No "pop".

Sometime later I had occasion to finally watch the finale of "L-Word" on SHO-HD. Showtime has, for my money, always had the best set audio levels of any channel. Watching "Dexter" has always been a treat, for its crystal clear and detailed sound (especially on the opening credits/theme song) and perfect, intimate audio level.

And looking at the SPL numbers for "L-Word", I guess I'd say that KCBS-DT is now just a smidgen below SHO-HD, which means nothing ever gets louder than -4dB on the meter and most sound between -9dB and -17dB. But with SHO-HD and DD5.1, even sound at -30dB (say intimate talk with no other noise in the background) is crystal clear.

So that puts KCBS-DT a bit louder than KNBC-DT (which is still the lowest in town), a bit lower than SHO-HD (which to me is the optimal target), and "more lower" than KABC-DT (which I still enjoy because it's a bit "hotter" and more enjoyable).

I personally think they overdid it, dialing things back. I did notice that the timing of this coincident with the NCAA tournament was probably no accident. I do remember that last week when I happened to watch some games the audio was SUPER LOUD. Maybe they had numerous complaints and finally decided to make this money-maker more tolerable.

I'd like to see them tweak it back up just a bit from where it is now (very close to KNBC-DT, which is not good... to my ears).

KCET is back to showing some of their HD and other 16:9 programs in a shrunken format on 28.1, with the picture inscribed inside of a 4:3 rectangle. It looks utterly ridiculous on any HD set, and I doubt if anyone would ever want to watch this. They must not even care about their viewers, and might as well take 28.1 off the air altogether if they are going to do this!

Does anyone know what is going on behind the scenes at KCET, and whether they are having technical malfunctions, or whether the just have an incompetent staff?

Don't assume. Probably the tapes they have on hand are SD letterbox. Having worked at TV stations in the past, I can assure you that you are frequently faced with situations where you air a less-than-ideal tape. I'm sure it's worse with budget-deprived educational programming.

On a related note, I noticed KLCS running a fashion show program yesterday afternoon in squeezed anamorphic. On both digital and analog.

the PQ on channel 13 has been very bad on their movies and king of queens lately.

very granular/fuzzy. not digital pixelation or reception issues

some shows are unaffected

Don't assume. Probably the tapes they have on hand are SD letterbox. Having worked at TV stations in the past, I can assure you that you are frequently faced with situations where you air a less-than-ideal tape. I'm sure it's worse with budget-deprived educational programming.

On a related note, I noticed KLCS running a fashion show program yesterday afternoon in squeezed anamorphic. On both digital and analog.

Ive seen this quite often too. It's on shows that they have previously braodcast in HD/widescreen [like The War/Ken Burns] so they clearly have the correct "tape" available

I wonder if someone puts the wrong broadcast tape in, ie the letterboxed one for analog/4:3? or they dont flip a switch or sthing?

>>It's on shows that they have previously braodcast in HD/widescreen [like The War/Ken Burns] so they clearly have the correct "tape" available<<

You can't assume that.

And looking at the SPL numbers for "L-Word", I guess I'd say that KCBS-DT is now just a smidgen below SHO-HD, which means nothing ever gets louder than -4dB on the meter and most sound between -9dB and -17dB. But with SHO-HD and DD5.1, even sound at -30dB (say intimate talk with no other noise in the background) is crystal clear.

So that puts KCBS-DT a bit louder than KNBC-DT (which is still the lowest in town), a bit lower than SHO-HD (which to me is the optimal target), and "more lower" than KABC-DT (which I still enjoy because it's a bit "hotter" and more enjoyable).

Interesting stuff. What do you get for KCAL-9 and how does that compare? I have always thought them extremely loud and being a KCBS sister station.

/Dan

>>It's on shows that they have previously braodcast in HD/widescreen [like The War/Ken Burns] so they clearly have the correct "tape" available<<

You can't assume that.

well Ive seen them do this and then show it correctly in HD later that day.

I wondered whther it was a prime time issue, ie hd only in primetime, but I couldnt see how?

well Ive seen them do this and then show it correctly in HD later that day.

I wondered whther it was a prime time issue, ie hd only in primetime, but I couldnt see how?


With KCET it is just the opposite! The shrunken pictures are typically shown in prime time on 28.1 which is supposed to be the HD subchannel. Also they put all of their SD 4:3 material on the HD subchannel, wasting bandwidth. On 28.2 and 28.4, where bandwidth is less, the originally HD programs seem to be displayed in the correct format, i.e., 16:9!

well Ive seen them do this and then show it correctly in HD later that day.

I wondered whther it was a prime time issue, ie hd only in primetime, but I couldnt see how?

You still can't assume that, since they might be taking a direct network feed.

But I will admit, if the last two posts are true, then the evidence is certainly swinging in favor of negligence on the part of the station staff.

The de facto policy of KCET seems to be becoming "NO HD in prime time"! :mad:

There is a lot of stuff that goes on the air wrong. Technical staffs have less and less to say about air quality nowdays. They barely have time with the cut-back staffing levels to simply keep the station on the air. A lot of operation is done by automation. The traffic department that makes up the air log now uploads it to the automation system. Product is ingested onto servers off the net or satellite services, then the automation plays it out to air. The traffic dept. people are not technical minded. Their worry is getting the right info from the program dept. and the sales dept. They seldom talk to tech people and are usually in offices far from the tech. areas. They have no idea nor interest of such things as dialnorm, PSIP etc. Lip sync? Not their baliwick. These people are office people. They think in terms of conference rooms, staff meetings, coffee and voicemail. Also they are of an ilk that thinks tech knowledge is socially taboo, the realm of geeks and nerds. These are the folk that run TV stations these days.
Top management buys expensive gear, has it installed and feels that is the end of the need to worry about pix or audio quality. That is what the salesmen at the NAB show put into their heads. Office people do not particularly like techs and engineers. One finance manager once told me he could hire 2 administrators for the price of one engineer! He was convinced that was a better deal for the station!!

Mabye sending comments to a show's web-site would get someone's attention. After all if they are putting out the expense and effort to produce a quality product they more than anyone have an interest in hearing how it looks to viewers.

Tony

HarrisonS
Are you really sure that KCET's 28-1 is the HD channel and 28-2 has less bandwidth? The multiplexer that takes in all the feeds and combines them into the bitstream sent out over the air can be setup to allocate more or less bandwidth to any of the channels. Usually it assingns B/W statistically to the program needing it most, limited by a system of priorities. It could be that KCET has chosen to broadcast SD material on 28-1 and set up 28-2 for HD. Does anyobody here know?

Tony

28-1 is the HD.

28-1 is the HD.All the comments so far match what Time Warner sends over cable too (KCET-HD has been boxed when I go to that channel). Dan

HarrisonS
Are you really sure that KCET's 28-1 is the HD channel and 28-2 has less bandwidth? The multiplexer that takes in all the feeds and combines them into the bitstream sent out over the air can be setup to allocate more or less bandwidth to any of the channels. Usually it assingns B/W statistically to the program needing it most, limited by a system of priorities. It could be that KCET has chosen to broadcast SD material on 28-1 and set up 28-2 for HD. Does anyobody here know?

Tony

While I don't have any way of quantitatively measuring bit rate, when I compare programs that are aired both on 28.1 and 28.2 (at different times, of course), they definitely do look sharper to me on 28.1 as long as they don't foul it up. A good case in point is The News Hour. While it looks reasonably good on 28.2 (a sort of lower-rez HD), in-studio shots can be almost jaw-dropping on a good day on 28.1.

There is a lot of stuff that goes on the air wrong. Technical staffs have less and less to say about air quality nowdays. They barely have time with the cut-back staffing levels to simply keep the station on the air. A lot of operation is done by automation. The traffic department that makes up the air log now uploads it to the automation system. Product is ingested onto servers off the net or satellite services, then the automation plays it out to air. The traffic dept. people are not technical minded. Their worry is getting the right info from the program dept. and the sales dept. They seldom talk to tech people and are usually in offices far from the tech. areas. They have no idea nor interest of such things as dialnorm, PSIP etc. Lip sync? Not their baliwick. These people are office people. They think in terms of conference rooms, staff meetings, coffee and voicemail. Also they are of an ilk that thinks tech knowledge is socially taboo, the realm of geeks and nerds. These are the folk that run TV stations these days.
Top management buys expensive gear, has it installed and feels that is the end of the need to worry about pix or audio quality. That is what the salesmen at the NAB show put into their heads. Office people do not particularly like techs and engineers. One finance manager once told me he could hire 2 administrators for the price of one engineer! He was convinced that was a better deal for the station!!

Mabye sending comments to a show's web-site would get someone's attention. After all if they are putting out the expense and effort to produce a quality product they more than anyone have an interest in hearing how it looks to viewers.

Tony

Thank you for your insights. I can readily understand how office drones can louse things up! They ought to realize that next to program content, the only other thing that really matters is the technical quality of the broadcast! As you say, maybe it would help to send comments to a show's web-site. Perhaps they can help put pressure on KCET to clean up their act.

I'd like to see them tweak it back up just a bitWell it seems like they did just this.

"CSI:Original" this week was very good. Definitely somewhat louder than the previous week's presentation, and reaching a max of -3DB (on my SPL meter) with the rest of the audio spaced out nicely and sounding excellent, even the very quiet segments.

So it looks like the KCBS-DT engineers actually went home and listened for themselves to what they'd done, and decided they'd overdone it a bit in the dialing-down department and juiced it just a bit hotter.

I must say it now says wonderful... perfectly listenable (no more QUICK, RUN FOR THE VOLUME DIAL! when tuning to 2.1), and yet hot enough to be really enjoyable again.

Very nice.

It sounds like you are on the technical staff of a local broadcaster. I am someone who started out on the engineering staff of a network O&O in a major east coast market after graduating from college, and over many years I have transitioned to one of the office people you describe. You know, the ones like me who "...are of an ilk that thinks tech knowledge is socially taboo, the realm of geeks and nerds. These are the folk that run TV stations these days."

What a one-sided perspective that is on the current reality of our business! I could elaborate for hours on the issues our station has faced in rolling out high-quality HD service that has been compromised with some less than competent technical staff that are protected by union work rules. Rules which seem to penalize and isolate those who really are trying to put in the extra effort and personal time to get it right. Rules which make us employ some people who are mediocre and not up to today's challenges. I could go on and on about engineers who are on the technical staff of some major LA broadcasters and are performing as if we are in an analog age. The reality is, we face TODAY the biggest technical challenge since TV's very begininngs, in converting from analog to digital, and not all of the technical staff has the skills to efficiently move to this new era.

On the business side a basic question is asked every day: why are we spending tens of millions of dollars on HD equipment (recommended to us by the Engineering Department) that they can't quickly deploy and get into a stable condition that we can use to beat competition?

At the end of the day, commercial broadcasters exist for one purpose: to maximize return on investment and make a profit, while serving the local communities. We do not exist to employ people or provide paychecks. It is highly capital-intensive business that needs to execute nearly perfectly each and everytime.

So, pardon me while I have my staff meetings, in my conference rooms, and try to turn a profit in a competitive marketplace while I sip my coffee (BTW, engineering has those same amenities at my station).

My purpose for posting this message is simple: there are two sides to every story. I have learned as I have transitioned in this business from a staff engineer to an non-engineering executive that only one thing counts in our business, and that is having competent staff that get it right (almost) every time. Our competitive market allows nothing less. The viewers expect it. We succeed when we deliver it.


There is a lot of stuff that goes on the air wrong. Technical staffs have less and less to say about air quality nowdays. They barely have time with the cut-back staffing levels to simply keep the station on the air. A lot of operation is done by automation. The traffic department that makes up the air log now uploads it to the automation system. Product is ingested onto servers off the net or satellite services, then the automation plays it out to air. The traffic dept. people are not technical minded. Their worry is getting the right info from the program dept. and the sales dept. They seldom talk to tech people and are usually in offices far from the tech. areas. They have no idea nor interest of such things as dialnorm, PSIP etc. Lip sync? Not their baliwick. These people are office people. They think in terms of conference rooms, staff meetings, coffee and voicemail. Also they are of an ilk that thinks tech knowledge is socially taboo, the realm of geeks and nerds. These are the folk that run TV stations these days.
Top management buys expensive gear, has it installed and feels that is the end of the need to worry about pix or audio quality. That is what the salesmen at the NAB show put into their heads. Office people do not particularly like techs and engineers. One finance manager once told me he could hire 2 administrators for the price of one engineer! He was convinced that was a better deal for the station!!

Mabye sending comments to a show's web-site would get someone's attention. After all if they are putting out the expense and effort to produce a quality product they more than anyone have an interest in hearing how it looks to viewers.

Tony

Today, Mon. 4/14 Noon, KCAL's usual anchors were missing. No David Gonzales or Mia Lee. Replaced by Kent Shocknek and Stacey Butler.

I'm well aware CBS is trying to consolidate the two channels news teams to save costs but are these the latest casualties?

EDIT: --- Sorry think I jumped to conclusions--just caught Stacey "I'm in for Mia Lee" Butler in a later newscast.

Hi, I'm in 91007, Arcadia area, with a rooftop antenna. I have good reception on most digital channels, except that 2-1 (CBS) is very borderline, with lots of dropouts, so that I often have to switch to analog, and I don't see 11-1 or 13-1 at all, and the analog reception for those stations is mediocre. snip
From what I read, I should be able to see most stations with a rooftop antenna (don't know the manufacturer) from my location, which would imply a hardware problem on my end. It's a longish run from the antenna to the TV, so maybe a preamp might help?

Hey, just wanted to give an update. The problem was not the antenna or the cabling, as some suggested, but the fact that I am a f@#%ing moron. (How come nobody suggested that? :D) I misunderstood which side of the antenna was the front, so I actually had the thing pointed away from the transmitters.

I rotated the antenna by 180 degrees and now I get all digital channels no problem. Thanks for all the suggestions anyways.

Sincerely,
World's biggest n00b

Do you also get channel 23.1,23.2 ?? How about 54.1 and 58.1??

Hey, just wanted to give an update. The problem was not the antenna or the cabling, as some suggested, but the fact that I am a f@#%ing moron. (How come nobody suggested that? :D) I misunderstood which side of the antenna was the front, so I actually had the thing pointed away from the transmitters.

I rotated the antenna by 180 degrees and now I get all digital channels no problem. Thanks for all the suggestions anyways.

Sincerely,
World's biggest n00b

Do you also get channel 23.1,23.2 ?? How about 54.1 and 58.1??
Do you mean 24.1, 24.2? Because there are no 23.1, 23.2 to the best of my knowledge.

Rudy

Do you mean 24.1, 24.2? Because there are no 23.1, 23.2 to the best of my knowledge.

Rudy

i meant 23.1/2/3. titantv.com shows them as KTBNDT1 channel. but i cant get them in zipcode 91006.

Do you also get channel 23.1,23.2 ?? How about 54.1 and 58.1??

I definitely get 58.1/2/4, that's PBS. I'm pretty sure I get 54.1. I don't remember 23.1 but I'll check tonight.

i meant 23.1/2/3. titantv.com shows them as KTBNDT1 channel. but i cant get them in zipcode 91006.

Titan TV is wrong. KTBN is mapped as 40.1, 40.2, etc. (They have 5, count 'em, 5 streams.)

I can get 54.1 just fine, however I do not get 23.1, etc., 40.1, etc., or 58.1 at all. For all intents and purposes these stations do not exist; neither does 13.1. I can get just about everything else OK. I am in zip code 91344.

I can get 54.1 just fine, however I do not get 23.1, etc., 40.1, etc., or 58.1 at all. For all intents and purposes these stations do not exist; neither does 13.1. I can get just about everything else OK. I am in zip code 91344.

From here, it says this channel is available in your area too!!
Put your zipcode and it shows all channels for your zip code.
http://www.titantv.com/quickguide/quickguide.aspx

Same for me also, but i cant get this channel. not sure why??

From here, it says this channel is available in your area too!!
Put your zipcode and it shows all channels for your zip code.
http://www.titantv.com/quickguide/quickguide.aspx

Same for me also, but i cant get this channel. not sure why??

I bet this site shows the same list for all of So. CA! Incidentally, it doesn't show 28.3 and 28.4 which I do get! By the way, you did not say which specific channels in my list you were getting or not getting, or what you meant by "Same for me also". :confused:

I meant 23.X and 58.X

I bet this site shows the same list for all of So. CA! Incidentally, it doesn't show 28.3 and 28.4 which I do get! By the way, you did not say which specific channels in my list you were getting or not getting, or what you meant by "Same for me also". :confused:

I can get 54.1 just fine, however I do not get 23.1, etc., 40.1, etc., or 58.1 at all. For all intents and purposes these stations do not exist; neither does 13.1. I can get just about everything else OK. I am in zip code 91344.

Note that UHF 23 is used for both KTBN (40.x) in Los Angeles and XETV (6.x) in San Diego.

I don't know if it's an error, but TVFool shows KFTR (46.1) and KAZA (54.1) both on UHF 47, and I have no trouble getting both of these.

KCOP (13.1) was the hardest one for me to get, but once I moved my attic antenna a few feet (and away from an attic furnace) it became much more steady.

KFTR-DT is on channel 29 rather than 47. It is an error.

I might note that UHF 23 is also used for KVMD-DT in Twentynine Palms. KTBN-DT wants to move to DT-33, but did not receive FCC approval. Look for them to move again.

- Trip

I bet this site shows the same list for all of So. CA! Incidentally, it doesn't show 28.3 and 28.4 which I do get! By the way, you did not say which specific channels in my list you were getting or not getting, or what you meant by "Same for me also". :confused:

Also worth noting - TitanTV's listings for most of the PBS secondary channels in LA are spectacularly inaccurate. I suspect they're confused as to which numbers go with which program schedules.

It's most irritating. I'd sure like to know what's on PBS World ...

Also worth noting - TitanTV's listings for most of the PBS secondary channels in LA are spectacularly inaccurate. I suspect they're confused as to which numbers go with which program schedules.

It's most irritating. I'd sure like to know what's on PBS World ...


You may be in luck. Last week I just noticed that the online TV Guide had started listing the 28.4 PBS World schedule - finally!

I followed-up with KLCS on the status of their replacement antenna and have received the following response:

I've just received word that the new antenna is due for installation the week of May 5, 2008.

I have asked if this is for analog and/or DTV. At this point, I don't see why a station would want to spend money to replace an analog antenna. However, I recall that they had planned to replace both after the lightning strike knocked out the mains.

KLCS responded today and advised that new antennas are to be installed for both analog 58 and digital 41.

I could elaborate for hours on the issues our station has faced in rolling out high-quality HD service that has been compromised with some less than competent technical staff that are protected by union work rules. Rules which seem to penalize and isolate those who really are trying to put in the extra effort and personal time to get it right. Rules which make us employ some people who are mediocre and not up to today's challenges. I could go on and on about engineers who are on the technical staff of some major LA broadcasters and are performing as if we are in an analog age. The reality is, we face TODAY the biggest technical challenge since TV's very begininngs, in converting from analog to digital, and not all of the technical staff has the skills to efficiently move to this new era.
Well, I know this isn't the place to bring this up, but you have a lot to learn about this industry, and industry in general.
Your staff is incompetent? Who hired them? HR is supposed to be about taking care of your best resource -- your people. Now it's about balancing a budget, regardless of the product it produces.

How is digital television different from analog television? You have new skills to learn. Who is teaching them at your station? It used to be the engineers training other engineers. Nowadays there's nobody left to do the training and stations expect the equipment vendors to train their staffs or do the work that the engineers used to do.

Sorry to continue the off-topic rant, but you make me feel old.

Trying to pick up digital TV from Santa Barbara, and Los Angeles. So far, gotten Digital 38.1 and 38.2 Univision, which is transmitting at over 900 KW. Gotten a signal, but the receiver does not pick up the following: 21 KPMR Santa Barbara, 24 KBEH Oxnard, 27 KEYT Santa Barbara 31 KTLA Los Angeles, 36 KNBC Los Angeles, 43 KCBS Los Angeles, 47 KAZA Avalon, 49 KJLA Los Angeles and 68 KRCA.

Presently get analog stations from Los Angeles. KABC, KPBS, KOCE, KNBC, to name a few. But for digital Antennaweb results are nothing, and tvfool results are nothing for Los Angeles stations. TV fool resuls for Santa Barbara include KEYT, KBAB-LP, K59CD, KPMR-DT (receiving), K15DB, KBEH-DT, KEYT-DT, and KTSB-LD. Am most interested in KEYT (news, traffic, sports, weather, etc. KEYT is an ABC affiliate station.

On February 18, 2009 will continue to get 23, and 45 KTBN analog due to a low power transmitter which we‘ll have until February 17, 2012.

Used a bowtie antenna Radio Shack 15-234 to get 38.1 and 38.2.

Included TV fool results for the Ventura Avenue area of Ventura. Highway 33 freeway going to Lake Casitas. Couple miles inland from the Pacific Ocean, so in a canyon.

Appreciate all the people who have contributed to the Los Angeles thread, and am hoping to have Los Angeles and Santa Barbara tv stations to watch next year.:)

The zip code is 93001. No success in adding the file.

The zip code is 93001. No success in adding the file.

Here is the TVFool plot for zip 93001. You will get a more accurate result if you use your actual address instead of just the zip code.

In any case, it looks as though you are in a canyon and it will be difficult to get good reception. The higher you can get your antenna the better your reception will be. The fact that you can get analog KOCE, UHF channel 50 tells me that it should be possible to get at least some of the digital stations from Los Angeles. Is there a lot of snow and/or ghosting on your analog channels?

Note that channel 21 KPMR-DT from Santa Barbara is what you are receiving on 38.1 and 38.2. That signal is extremely strong and the transmitter is fairly high. I can get it here in Canoga Park.

The bowtie antenna you are using appears to be an indoor antenna. You will do a whole lot better with an outdoor antenna. I would recommend the XG-91 antenna. If you want both L.A. and Santa Barbara stations you will need a rotator.

-Paul

You can use this address which is a public park: 573 Sheridan Way, Ventura, 93001. Houses close to the hill towards Los Angeles don't get as many channels. Don't get that many channels. Thinking about the 91XG. Was recommended by the Company. Winegard recommended the HD7084, but don't want the high profile on the roof.

Do have a related question. If you combine three Radio Shack bowtie's with an inline power amplifier (10db), how would they work together, and what would it's performance be. A posting in San Jose put one RS bowtie ($ 4.00) on a pier and used it to their tower (Sutro?) and got great performance. So, if you expand on that idea and put three together, you get 100% coverage for about $ 20.00. San Jose to Sutro has got to be a long way, so if you are in the San Fernando Valley you should get a side swath of television coverage (360 degrees) with this idea for not a whole lot of money. $$.
thanks.

I haven't posted here since I put together the new system (just the PC).

Well even then when the bottle-neck was no longer the PC, I still had problems with studdering (very minor) on KTTV-DT and KCBS-DT.

KNBC has been flawless and perfect, the Knight Rider tv movie wasn't great obviously but the PQ was excellent and the Dolby was clear as a bell.

The Super Bowl had some minor problems and I had some problems with College Basketball as well.

Recorded NASCAR@Talledega today; spotless! So my FOX problems seems to be dead now.

My window and antenna point towards Mount Wilson, so there's no hope of getting any signals west of my location as the entire house blocks any signal.

Scorecard:

KCBS-DT (2.1) - Still some minor issues with studder (Signal Strength about 85%)
KNBC-DT (4.1) - Great PQ and Sound (Signal about 98%)
KTLA-DT (5.1) - See above, watched most of Clippers home games
KABC-DT (7.1) - ALMS/IRL/CART races not in HD (480p/4:3)! Otherwise I had a clear picture and no problems with P4 2.3Ghz non HT CPU before (AMD 64x2 5000+ BE now 2.9Ghz)
KCAL-DT (9.1) - Better than CBS feed, hmmm no problems with Lakers games
KTTV-DT (11.1) - Nice Output for Cup Races, Bowl Games (Signal Strength about 90%)
KCOP-DT (13.1) - Seems to work fine, not much use for this channel

I'd get more channels if my antenna was out in the open and not blocking anything. $30 RS "Surfboard" with 10db gain amp - :D

Vista MCE with Cat's Eye 150 HDTV card. My ATI 650HD has a tuner as well, but can't be used concurrently, but with ATI's Media Center software, it works just as well as the Cat's Eye.

I'm about 95% happy with my HDTV, just need to improve KCBS by the time football season returns.

This morning.

KNBC early morning news.

New set.

But no HD.

:confused:

VenturaTVViewer....

I am East Ventura and I easily get every LA digital channel using only an indoors Zenith Silver Sensor. However, be advised that east Ventura is in a direct signal path to the transmitters. I know a person in Ventura near the Telephone Rd Barns & Noble & the 126 that has a giant UHF antenna in his attic (I gave it to him), and he can just barely get all the channels, with occasional problems on KABC and KCET. Location is a big factor, and the further west you go in Ventura, the harder it is to get the LA signals.

The dropoff is just behind Vons on Main Street. Under analog been receiving: 3 KEYT-SB Good, 4 KNBC-LA Snowy, 5 KTLA-LA Snowy, 7 KABC-LA Good, 13 FOX? LA Snowy, 18 Unk Good, 23 KIMG-Low Power Great, 28 KPBS LA Snowy45 KTBN Low Power Perfect, 50 KOCE Snowy, 52 Unk Snowy 62 Unk Snowy 63 Unk Snowy.

Using a plus 15 db medium range rated to 45 miles. Amplified Winegard.

Since getting hits on digital thinking it's going to work with the right antenna. May not be easy.

Worst case right now is getting 38.1, 38.2 KPMR-DT Oxnard, and 23 and 45 KTBN until Feb 7, 2012.

There are other antennas in the area. Big bird antennas. Would rather not go that route.

Seems like my KNBC disappeared...anyone else having problems?

Seems like my KNBC disappeared...anyone else having problems?
Just fine here

Hmm strange...a reboot of my computer and now it's back....

thanks for your quick response.

KLCS responded today and advised that new antennas are to be installed for both analog 58 and digital 41.

KLCS has advised that the new antenna installations have been delayed. They hope to have them installed by the end of the month at this point.

hey everyone

jay leno show says it broadcast in 5.1, but i only get sound of the front 2 speakers. the other channels 5.1 work fine

any ideas

Leno is broadcast in stereo, but NBC has it flagged as DD5.1 in the metadata they provide in the feed, so the station's encoder follows that and only has audio in L/R. The only way to work around this is to use to use the analog audio to your receiver and set the receiver to decode ProLogic.

KCAL-DT 43 appears to be off the air right now. Can anyone confirm? I'm getting 0 signal on DTV for it, though analog 9 is still working. Perhaps they are doing some work?

Yes, same story here. I've noticed 9-1 on my HR20 has been down for about an hour.

Yes, same story here. I've noticed 9-1 on my HR20 has been down for about an hour.

It's still off the air as of this morning. It's interesting to see what a vacant channel looks like in analog. It looks just like 37. Every other local UHF channel seems to have at least something on it...

DTV white "noise" is easy to spot, but I'm wondering what is on 19. I was almost able to get KSWB in San Diego for a few days, then some noise appeared (re-appeared?) on 19 and I haven't seen a sign of it since. Does anyone know if something is on 19 locally?

CBS has confirmed a technical problem for KCAL DTV 43. They are working on it.

CBS has confirmed a technical problem for KCAL DTV 43. They are working on it.Yikes, I hope it gets fixed before tonight's Lakers game! :(

Yikes, I hope it gets fixed before tonight's Lakers game! :(

My thoughts exactly. When I got up this morning, I checked to see if it was back up. They've got about 8+ hours to get the problem fixed. Watching the game on ESPN isn't something I want to do.

If not, I wonder if they'll have KCBS break their "no multicasting" rule and stick the game on a subchannel?

If not, I wonder if they'll have KCBS break their "no multicasting" rule and stick the game on a subchannel?You mean show on its 43.2?

My thoughts exactly. When I got up this morning, I checked to see if it was back up. They've got about 8+ hours to get the problem fixed. Watching the game on ESPN isn't something I want to do.When did it go down? I only watch KCAL9 for Lakers games and rarely news. I assume analog is fine.

When did it go down? I only watch KCAL9 for Lakers games and rarely news. I assume analog is fine.

I noticed it down last night about 10:30PM. Still down as of 11:30AM. I haven't checked the SD version since I've got them hidden on my D* guide. You're right though, it's probably fine.

They are hopeful to have it back up by tonight. They suggested that I check again around 3pm. I'm sure they understand the urgency.

They are hopeful to have it back up by tonight. They suggested that I check again around 3pm. I'm sure they understand the urgency.With their level of concern it might be a good time to buy stock in antacids. They are doing everything possible to get it working. There is also an effort going to get it on D* and possibly some cable systems directly if all else fails. The analog channel is fine.

My thoughts exactly. When I got up this morning, I checked to see if it was back up. They've got about 8+ hours to get the problem fixed. Watching the game on ESPN isn't something I want to do.

It won't be blacked out on ESPN?

I dropped cable a couple months ago, so analog might have to do.

Would they have enough time to add a sub-channel on DT-2/60 if it came to that? I wouldn't expect it; I think they have their hands full as it is.

How often does this problem happen? It seems to happen a lot for digital.

http://cbs2.com/kcal/ says "The HD Signal On KCAL 9 Is Currently Down. Watch Your Regular KCAL 9 Station Until Further Notice". Is regular analog one? :)

How often does this problem happen? It seems to happen a lot for digital.

http://cbs2.com/kcal/ says "The HD Signal On KCAL 9 Is Currently Down. Watch Your Regular KCAL 9 Station Until Further Notice". Is regular analog one? :)


The HD local version of KCAL9 is working on D*, along with the SD version. Seems just OTA is down now.

The HD local version of KCAL9 is working on D*, along with the SD version. Seems just OTA is down now.OK, I am confused. What did you mean by D*? I thought the original problem was that OTA was having problems (didn't get its singal this morning when I checked).

OTA KCAL-DT is up for me.

OTA KCAL-DT is up for me.

Same here. The signal looks ok. 31dB. :D

How often does this problem happen? It seems to happen a lot for digital.

http://cbs2.com/kcal/ says "The HD Signal On KCAL 9 Is Currently Down. Watch Your Regular KCAL 9 Station Until Further Notice". Is regular analog one? :)KCAL9's home page no longer has the message.

The HD local version of KCAL9 is working on D*, along with the SD version. Seems just OTA is down now.OK, I am confused. What did you mean by D*? I thought the original problem was that OTA was having problems (didn't get its singal this morning when I checked).DirecTv (aka D*) normally gets the KCAL HD feed from OTA. KCAL was able to temporarily send the ASI output of their HD encoder via fiber to D* while they were fixing the transmitter. Fortunately their transmitter was up and running several hours before the game to allow OTA viewers to see the Lakers win.

DirecTv (aka D*) normally gets the KCAL HD feed from OTA. KCAL was able to temporarily send the ASI output of their HD encoder via fiber to D* while they were fixing the transmitter. Fortunately their transmitter was up and running several hours before the game to allow OTA viewers to see the Lakers win.
Was/is the fiber feed a HDTV 1080i signal at a larger bit rate without sharing the available 19.39 Mbps with a SD subchannel? If so, is fiber delivery cost the reason for OTA pickup? How do local cable head ends get KCAL's feed?

Here, with NYC's TWC, most stations seem to have fiber delivery, and apparently as a result there's virtually no blocking artifacts during image motion from any source, something local OTA viewers complain about--although CBS here still isn't using subchannels AIUI. -- John

KCAL is O&O by CBS and doesn't have any subchannels. NYC is different because the dense environment of tall buildings with little natural higher ground makes OTA difficult to receive for large areas of the city. LA is basically a giant basin with a couple adjoining valleys, and Mt. Wilson is about 4000' above most of it, giving them a far superior broadcast position. Also, after everyone but WCBS was taken offline by the WTC attacks, the need for alternative distribution was fairly clear.

Anyone else try to catch the 9:50am segment of AM this am? Ie, the "extra" song that they play in the next hour?

My DTV reception has been A+ for months, but just as she starts to sing ("Thank You"), the picture and sound starts to break up... then it goes away completely only to come back fine for the commercials.

There may have been a *slight* rain around this time, but that shouldn't affect OTA! Anyone else happen to watch/tape the same thing at the same time? How did yours turn out??

thanks!
--Gary

OH GREAT channels 7,9,11 & 13 are switching back to VHF! Sorry if this has already been discussed, but it's just come to my attention that these channels are switching from UHF back to their old VHF numbers for their digital signals once the transition is complete. This means our high-performance UHF antennas will become... well... very low performance on these channels. Which means... it seems... that for those of us who put up an excellent 4 or 8 bay UHF antenna, we're going to need a second antenna... a "7-13 Special"... after Feb 17...

--Gary

OH GREAT channels 7,9,11 & 13 are switching back to VHF! Sorry if this has already been discussed, but it's just come to my attention that these channels are switching from UHF back to their old VHF numbers for their digital signals once the transition is complete. This means our high-performance UHF antennas will become... well... very low performance on these channels. Which means... it seems... that for those of us who put up an excellent 4 or 8 bay UHF antenna, we're going to need a second antenna... a "7-13 Special"... after Feb 17...

--Gary


That's right. As I recall, the original plan was to stay on UHF entirely and all of the VHF band would be given over to other services. I don't know when they changed their mind and decided to retain ch. 7-13.

This is going to be a big pain for me, too. I am going to have to put up a VHF antenna, and run a separate line (or lines) down, since I am using an antenna-mounted UHF preamplifier. The good news is that reception may be better on chs. 11 and 13. Channel 11 usually comes in OK but occasionally breaks up, and channel 13 does not come in at all.

BTW does anybody make a VHF hi-band-only antenna (7-13)?

What is the source of this information on some of the LA OTA locals switching their digital signals back to High-VHF after the transition date? This is the first I have heard of that plan.

What is the source of this information on some of the LA OTA locals switching their digital signals back to High-VHF after the transition date? This is the first I have heard of that plan.

The plan has been in place for about three years (I believe it is that long). Channels 2 through 6 get too much interference from the E-Layer of the ionosphere strengthening during the summer months and refracting distant tv signals that interfere with KCBS, KNBC, KTLA. Therefore those stations opted for UHF (as did others on 2 thru 6 around the country.) 7 and above aren't affected by this, so they can stay on their original allocation. That is the short explanation of it.

There are a few hardy souls (such as KIEM-TV Channel 3 in Eureka,CA) who are taking the risk and remaining on their lo-band VHF frequencies. But they will probably be petitioning the FCC for a change after experiencing interference in the summer of 2009.

Antennacraft and Winegard make inexpensive Hi-VHF (only) Antennas:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=Y5-7-13
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=Y10-7-13
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=YA1713
also available from www.summitsource.com and others.

And as I've mentioned several times, the CM-4228 8-Bay "UHF" antenna
has moderate gain in hi-VHF band.
Although other "UHF only" antennas may have even lower gain in hi-VHF band,
it may be "adequate" if you aren't very far from towers.

While it is true that E-skip can cause some problems, most issues with low VHF are caused by noise from motors, fluorescent lights, dimmer switches, and other local man-made sources. Once most of the full-power stations leave low VHF because of the analog shutoff, look for a bunch of low-power stations trying to get on those channels because the transmitters and electric bills are cheaper than for UHF and they work just as well as anything else for getting carriage on cable and DBS.

Once most of the full-power stations leave low VHF because of the analog shutoff, look for a bunch of low-power stations trying to get on those channels because the transmitters and electric bills are cheaper than for UHF and they work just as well as anything else for getting carriage on cable and DBS.

For the sake of accuracy, note that low-powered stations cannot demand cable/satellite carriage in the same way full-powered stations can. They can only get carriage through agreements with the companies in question, they can't demand carriage.

I do still expect to see LPTV stations pop up there due to the low power bills. I also expect them to have an audience of roughly 0 viewers.

- Trip

Tech Now! Digital Special: Get the Picture

Tech Now on NBC is having a feature on the DTV transition right now. I hope they have it available on the web-site when it is done as I caught it 10 minutes in.

Boy howdy, Indy on KABC has been a mess. I thought it was D* then I checked my OTA signal. I "think" it has stabilized but wow!
:(

Boy howdy, Indy on KABC has been a mess. I thought it was D* then I checked my OTA signal. I "think" it has stabilized but wow!
:(

The race or the signal?

The signal was breaking up a bit earlier, but seems to be ok now. I can't say the same for some of the cars, yikes.

The race or the signal?

The signal was breaking up a bit earlier, but seems to be ok now. I can't say the same for some of the cars, yikes.

The signal (lots of "break up" in the race too) it started getting bad again at the end!

There may have been a *slight* rain around this time, but that shouldn't affect OTA!

Hi there

From my experience, weather can affect OTA reception.
From what I've read, RF energy is absorbed by water/moisture. A wet roof is a problem when installing the antenna in the attic, although I still get enough signal w/my installation.

Regards

Which means... it seems... that for those of us who put up an excellent 4 or 8 bay UHF antenna, we're going to need a second antenna... a "7-13 Special"... after Feb 17..

Hi there

I'm not worried with a CM 4228 8-bay. For a long time, there's been an antenna comparison at the HDTV primer site, and the 4228 is noted for having "strong gain for VHF-high, especially channel 9-13".
The VHF reception of the 4228 should beat a pair of rabbit ears on channel 7, 9, 11 and 13. For a short time I could even get the low-power 8.1, but not any more.

Regards

For the sake of accuracy, note that low-powered stations cannot demand cable/satellite carriage in the same way full-powered stations can. They can only get carriage through agreements with the companies in question, they can't demand carriage.

I do still expect to see LPTV stations pop up there due to the low power bills. I also expect them to have an audience of roughly 0 viewers.

- Trip
Isn't there some sort of viewership number that can be met to qualify for must-carry on DBS? There seem to be some odd carriage choices in some markets with a lot of LPs like Palm Springs.

Isn't there some sort of viewership number that can be met to qualify for must-carry on DBS? There seem to be some odd carriage choices in some markets with a lot of LPs like Palm Springs.

Nope. In Palm Springs, DirecTV carries these stations according to their website:

KUNA-LP (Telemundo)
KDFX-LP (Fox)
KMIR (NBC)
KPSP-LP (CBS)
KESQ (ABC)
PBS (not specified, could be national feed)

KPSP-LP is the CBS affiliate for the market, so it's in DirecTV's best interest to carry that one whether they're required to or not.

The rest (KDFX and KUNA) are co-owned with KESQ, and thus KESQ probably has a retransmission agreement that says DirecTV is not allowed to carry KESQ's main signal if they don't also carry the two LPTV stations. Further, it's the same situation with KDFX-LP as there was with KPSP-LP, being the affiliate of the top-rated network, it's in DirecTV's best interest to carry KDFX-LP regardless of whether or not they're actually required to by law.

I checked and Dish Network does not appear to carry any locals for Palm Springs.

Now the FCC has proposed allowing Class A television stations to demand cable carriage in the same way that full-powered stations can, but I don't think that's been approved yet. And there are strict requirements for becoming a Class A station, very similar to the requirements for a full-powered station.

- Trip

Hi there

I'm not worried with a CM 4228 8-bay. For a long time, there's been an antenna comparison at the HDTV primer site, and the 4228 is noted for having "strong gain for VHF-high, especially channel 9-13".
The VHF reception of the 4228 should beat a pair of rabbit ears on channel 7, 9, 11 and 13. For a short time I could even get the low-power 8.1, but not any more.

Regards
Hmmmm interesting that you cannot get the 8.1 and 8.2 anymore, because yesterday I did a channel scan having read here about the move, and for the first time ever saw my antenna pick up 8.1 and 8.2. The reception was terrible and half the time the image broke up, but it was there.

Rudy

does anyone have a contact email for ktla /5 engineering please?

two and a half men at 7pm has been skipping/dropping frames for a while now

sent an email through the website, no response

thanks

For Ventura Avenue in Ventura. Getting in beautiful digital tv KEYT 3.1, MYRTN 3.2, Univision (Spanish) 38.1 and 38.2. Using a RS bowtie antenna small with in-line amplifier. Short run. No splitters. Thanks for the help so far. Getting hits on the following for Los Angeles Mount Wilson: ???-32; KNBC-36; KLCS-41;???-47, KOCE-48, KXLA-51; 53.

Probably will need a big bird CM, leaning towards AD-91XG. Or Winegard GS-2200 with more amperage.

If someone can take the TV fool signal and publish on this site for the Ventura Avenue area. Need to see the signal as it goes over the hill. Need to look at if the signal refracts as it goes over the hill and what angle. Try the corner of Center Street and Ventura Avenue, or any intersection along Ventura Avenue.

Really appreciate all the thoughts.

For: 550 N Ventura Ave, Ventura, Ca

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/2446/venturamn5.th.jpg (http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=venturamn5.jpg)

The Orange County Register will be running an article on the DTV transition tomorrow in the Marketplace section. However, since the Marketplace section is now buried in the main section I don't know how many people will see it.

For: 550 N Ventura Ave, Ventura, Ca


500' and still no line of sight? Sounds like a very tough spot, though seeing some results is encouraging.

A CM4228 or 91XG for UHF and YA1713 for VHF may yield some results if the small bow-tie is yielding some results. However, is it just detecting the signal (no locks I assume) or is it providing any signal strength measurements?

The Orange County Register will be running an article on the DTV transition tomorrow in the Marketplace section. However, since the Marketplace section is now buried in the main section I don't know how many people will see it.

Here is a link to the web version:

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/digital-gadgetress-href-2058103-http-parents

In the paper, the title is "Those rabbit ears will soon be no more than decoration." Really? A rabbit ears/loop combo will work just fine in many areas around here.

I'm not pleased. Apparently, I'm one of those "antenna people."

A CM4228 or 91XG for UHF and YA1713 for VHF may yield some results if the small bow-tie is yielding some results. However, is it just detecting the signal (no locks I assume) or is it providing any signal strength measurements?

I use the Winegard 8200 antenna with a 8275 preamp. Both of these are UHF/VHF. The 8200 is almost as good as the 91XG but it also has VHF.

Rick R