Los Angeles, CA - OTA [Text View] - Page 15

holl_ands

06-04-08, 08:38 PM

Getting "hits", do not have the capability to quantify the signal. Need someone to use the TVfool way of putting it in three dimensions and posting the LA Mount Wilson Signal towards this address: 550 North Ventura Avenue, Ventura, CA 93001. We can then look if the signal refracts, and if it does, what kind of signal is left in db. Done the online method, looks like the signal is there for about ten stations. High power stations.
Here are TVFool results for your location...Now and Post-Feb2009....
Plus Signal Coverage Map for KABC-DT (they're all about the same)....

There is absolutely no signal predicted via classic diffraction edge propagation mode.

TVFool (and other propagation predictions programs) do not consider
reflections from nearby mountains (and buildings).
Very weak signals MIGHT get bounced off (blue & green colored) hills West of you.
But you'll need a high gain outdoor antenna...if it works at all...

How about Basic cable (should be under $15/mo)????

BTW: W-G GS-2200 is a very low gain antenna for short range use...no way...

Falcon_77

06-04-08, 08:39 PM

KBBC-DT 20

Trip,

I don't think KBBC has a digital signal yet, but even if it did, most of us are well out of its range. It is interesting to have this station in the LA DMA when it is 220 miles away.

If I can get a lock on the others I will let you know.

Thanks for doing this.

jeff2631

06-04-08, 08:52 PM

Getting "hits", do not have the capability to quantify the signal. Need someone to use the TVfool way of putting it in three dimensions and posting the LA Mount Wilson Signal towards this address: 550 North Ventura Avenue, Ventura, CA 93001. We can then look if the signal refracts, and if it does, what kind of signal is left in db. Done the online method, looks like the signal is there for about ten stations. High power stations.

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2170/ventura01xa1.th.jpg (http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ventura01xa1.jpg) http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/6263/ventura02yu5.th.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ventura02yu5.jpg) http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/2928/ventura03hr2.th.jpg (http://img238.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ventura03hr2.jpg) http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/8112/ventura05je5.th.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ventura05je5.jpg)

Trip in VA

06-04-08, 09:06 PM

I know, but technically it's on my list and it's missing. =) I don't know if I'll ever fill it in... maybe if I can convince the college to give me a semester worth of credits for traveling the country and populating my site. =Þ

It's in the DMA because Bishop must watch Los Angeles TV on translators up there, and so when it signs on, instant carriage across the DMA on satellite.

Glad to do it. Not only do I enjoy it immensely, it gets my name (well, my alias anyway) out there.

- Trip

holl_ands

06-05-08, 11:09 AM

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/2170/ventura01xa1.th.jpg (http://img266.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ventura01xa1.jpg) http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/6263/ventura02yu5.th.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ventura02yu5.jpg) http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/2928/ventura03hr2.th.jpg (http://img238.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ventura03hr2.jpg) http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/8112/ventura05je5.th.jpg (http://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ventura05je5.jpg)
FYI: Looks like the ocean level a few decades from now....
In RADIO MOBILE, I went into PICTURE PROPERTIES, selected COLOR
and changed the "bottom" NEGATIVE value to 1 meter....

RELATIVE SCALE (like you're using) goes back to a negative number every range scale change.
I use ABSOLUTE SCALE....no more range scale change problems.
I also reassigned heights and colors....and click SAVE...

The Big Bad

06-05-08, 01:36 PM

Hey Falcon_77 -- What antenna are you using? I'm near Ladera (in MV).

Falcon_77

06-05-08, 03:24 PM

Hey Falcon_77 -- What antenna are you using? I'm near Ladera (in MV).

I currently have the following in use:

1) CM4228 pointed towards KVCR
2) Custom built UHF antenna (based on Gray-Hoverman design) pointed to Mt. Wilson.
3) Custom built 30" VHF bow-tie, pointed to Mt. Wilson.

I also have a VHF YA-1713 installed in my attic, but it is not currently in use.

If this hadn't become such a hobby, I'd be doing just fine with a 4221 for now, with a smaller VHF antenna down the road.

I'm also using a CM7777 pre-amp, but it isn't needed for most stations.

VenturaTVViewer

06-05-08, 03:43 PM

Thanks for the input, the graphs and the ideas. The LA signal is definitely there (previous posts). Will probably end up with a CM, or AD, with preamp. Not going back to cable, there's always radio, or doing something else. Thanks again:D

Falcon_77

06-05-08, 11:00 PM

FYI: Looks like the ocean level a few decades from now....
In RADIO MOBILE, I went into PICTURE PROPERTIES, selected COLOR
and changed the "bottom" NEGATIVE value to 1 meter....

RELATIVE SCALE (like you're using) goes back to a negative number every range scale change.
I use ABSOLUTE SCALE....no more range scale change problems.
I also reassigned heights and colors....and click SAVE...

Thank you for the tips.

I finally figured out how to use Radio Mobile, but I'm getting some weird results (too easy to receive signals). For starters, what are you using as the receiver threshold? For the transmitter side, I'm using the station ERP and then putting in 0 for all the gain figures. In other words the EIRP is equal. I'm assuming that is correct?

If I could see the full Radio Link window I can probably figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Thanks,

holl_ands

06-06-08, 04:34 AM

Thermal Noise is -105.6 dBm across 75-ohm resistance for Preamp (or Tuner) temperature
of 100 degree (C)....e.g. estimated transistor junction temperature.
[And will vary only about 0.5 dB over expected temp. range.]

Since ATSC requires at least 15.2 dB SNR, the Idealized Sensitivity is about -90.4 dBm.

Hence Preamp with 2.0 dB Noise Figure and 1.4 dB input Balun loss has -87.0 dB Sensitivity.
Preamp Gain reduces effect of Cable loss, RF Splitter loss and Tuner Noise Figure, hence
will only degrade by 1 or 2 more dB.
Sensitivity with Preamp is about -85 dBm. [See spread sheet.]

For a typical Tuner Noise Figure of 8-10 dB...plus say a cable loss of 4 dB,
Sensitivity without Preamp is about -76 dBm. (-105.6+15.2+1.4+4.0+9.0).

This is Preamp or Tuner sensitivity WITHOUT receive antenna gain,
just as would be measured on a test bench.

===============================================
I explained these calculations in my Fade Margin Calculator spread sheet.
I actually only use RADIO MOBILE to calculate PATH LOSS:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10961518

The difference I found between TVFool and R-M turned out to be TVFool
assumed F(99,99) statistics (worst location, deepest fade),
whereas R-M was F(50,50) statistics (median location, median fade) which
requires a 15-20+ dB Fade Margin...so they are sort of equivalent....

holl_ands

06-06-08, 04:58 AM

I'm puzzled as to how you can only see partial RADIO LINK window...
I can only see the entire window and can't figure out how to blow up just a section....

You appear to be entering ERP correctly.

Falcon_77

06-06-08, 10:27 AM

The difference I found between TVFool and R-M turned out to be TVFool
assumed F(99,99) statistics (worst location, deepest fade),
whereas R-M was F(50,50) statistics (median location, median fade) which
requires a 15-20+ dB Fade Margin...so they are sort of equivalent....

Thanks, putting in 90% (time, location, situations) vs. the default 50% made a significant difference.

As for the Radio Link screen, what I meant was the examples above (from jeff2631) are cut and pasted w/o showing the calcs.

I would also like to know how to detail parts of the point to point plot, especially at the end (close to the receiver).

jeff2631

06-06-08, 01:57 PM

I use Radio Mobile to just look at the signal path over the terrain. Since I don't use the calculations, I cut off that part.

To get a close up look at the last few miles, I click on the Radio Link window to place the cursor close to the end and look at the elevation shown in that window. Then I go to the Unit Properties and selection another unit and "Place unit at cursor position". When I go back to the Radio Link window and change to the new unit, I enter the elevation that was shown previously. Then it shows the signal path over the terrain from the closer unit.

Falcon_77

06-06-08, 03:07 PM

putting in 90% (time, location, situations) vs. the default 50% made a significant difference.

Perhaps I should leave 50% situations alone. I don't know the significance of this value? I'm used to seeing F(99,99), etc. Maybe I should re-read the TV Fool thread now that I have Radio Mobile working.

Yoskai

06-09-08, 02:36 PM

For some odd reason i can't received KABC-DT with my DB4 antenna. The distance is about the same with other channels and i have direct line of sight. I have my DB4 installed on top of the roof and all the channels are fine except for the KABC-DT. It's pixelating with a signal strength of 35-40. I've tried using distribution amplifiers (3 different brands) and it didn't help. any advice... thanks in advance:confused:

Yoskai

06-09-08, 09:07 PM

Falcon_77

06-10-08, 01:51 AM

Additional info... I live in Granada hills, 91344 which is about 25 miles from the tower and my antenna is facing toward the tower. And yes, I tried turning the antenna to different directions but that didn't help. In fact, turning it to different direction made other channels disappear.

KABC and KCOP can both be problematic here. I don't know if they are operating underpowered transmitters or if it is just noise and/or interference, but I doubt they will be making any improvements until they go back to VHF.

Perhaps there a problem with KABC/53 being sandwiched between two full-power analog stations (52 and 54)?

I wouldn't normally suggest an amp in your situation, but have you tried one? A 10dB CM amp (Fry's) may help, but overload is very likely with a stronger amp.

Falcon_77

06-10-08, 11:06 AM

Perhaps I should leave 50% situations alone. I don't know the significance of this value? I'm used to seeing F(99,99), etc. Maybe I should re-read the TV Fool thread now that I have Radio Mobile working.

90% for all three seems to be giving me the best results, though Radio Mobile seems to be more forgiving with edge diffraction than TV Fool.

An interesting experiment I did was to put a TV transmitter on Saddleback Mountain. The coverage area for this location is very broad. I'm assuming that this wasn't considered as a site since not many people lived here (S. OC) in the 50's and it's too close to San Diego? Attached is a coverage plot for an example move for the KNBC tower to Saddleback Mountain with a non-directional antenna.

There are plenty of towers up on Saddleback, but I still don't know what they are.

Yoskai

06-10-08, 11:41 AM

KABC and KCOP can both be problematic here. I don't know if they are operating underpowered transmitters or if it is just noise and/or interference, but I doubt they will be making any improvements until they go back to VHF.

Perhaps there a problem with KABC/53 being sandwiched between two full-power analog stations (52 and 54)?

I wouldn't normally suggest an amp in your situation, but have you tried one? A 10dB CM amp (Fry's) may help, but overload is very likely with a stronger amp.

Yes, in fact that was one of the three brands I tried. Thanks for your help though. By the way, when will KABC go back to VHF, Feb 09?

Falcon_77

06-10-08, 03:15 PM

Yes, in fact that was one of the three brands I tried. Thanks for your help though. By the way, when will KABC go back to VHF, Feb 09?

KABC will be returning to 7 on 2/17/09, along with KCAL/9, KTTV/11 and KCOP/13. It will probably be early 2/18/09, barring any major problems, unless they can turn off analog and turn on DTV within a second. :D

Rick_R

06-11-08, 12:59 AM

KABC will be returning to 7 on 2/17/09, along with KCAL/9, KTTV/11 and KCOP/13. It will probably be early 2/18/09, barring any major problems, unless they can turn off analog and turn on DTV within a second. :D

Since those are my worst 3 channels there is hope. Actually they have probably put the least effort into their digital channels knowing they will move soon.

Rick R

narkspud

06-12-08, 04:35 PM

WackyPacks

06-14-08, 01:46 AM

But the programs on 18.1 & 18.2 are almost the same.

DSperber

06-14-08, 07:37 PM

This has been an ongoing issue, and I'll bring it up again.

I'm not entirely sure if this is unique to KNBC-DT in LA, or a national NBC network issue (which I think it is), but I want to gather some evidence first. I have a phone call scheduled on Monday with engineering VPs at NBC in Burbank and also in NY and I want to be sure I'm not alone.

I found the digital audio level on the French Open to be horribly low. I could, of course, turn the volume up on my receiver, but heaven help me if I forgot about it and changed channels. BLAST RIGHT OUT OF THE ROOM ON CHANNEL-CHANGE!

This week, during US Open golf coverage, the digital audio level seems to be even worse. I mean my digital SPL meter shows it to be about 15db below other OTA channels here in LA. That changes dramatically when ads come on, gaining back around 10db (still low, but MUCH MUCH louder than the sports program content).

I was stunned yesterday to watch/listen to the HD Leno show as well as the US Open, both with digital audio through my computer, which has HD capability available through both (1) an HD-cable video card, as well as (2) an external OTA source providing HDMI video input to my display and DD5.1/2.0 digital audio to my Philips HD1500U Dolby Headphone processor/headphones which feeds both headphones as well as the line-input of my sound card.

Remarkably, no matter how I increased volume I could not get the sound level to be acceptably loud. I turned the headphone volume up to max and that was unsuccessful. I turned the Windows mixer line-level input [preamp] UP TO MAX (when using the external OTA source) and that was unsuccessful. Even when watching HDTV in a window (from my HD video card) I had to push the onscreen volume slider up to "9" to have it be "normal" (usually set to "4" or maybe "3" for equivalent volume on other channels).

In other words, my computer HD experiences match what I'm observing on my HDTV watching/listening experience through my primary 34XBR960 and associated digital audio receiver/headphone equipment. It is obviously KNBC-DT or national NBC network which has seemingly dropped the already notoriously low digital audio levels even lower of late... perhaps in a "tune-up" for the Olympics.

NBC's awful audio [dialnorm] levels started back in 2004 with the Athens Olympics when they first went to DD5.1... badly. Audio was horrible for the first few days until they turned it up a bit.

But in the past two weeks, between first the French Open and now the US Open, NBC's audio level seems to have been dropped again... across the programming board.

So, anybody in the LA area reading the same thing?

Thanks.

jeff2631

06-14-08, 09:19 PM

I'm in San Diego and receive both KNBC-DT OTA and KNSD-DT OTA. No problems with either 5.1 audio or 2.0 pcm audio on either one. Seems the same with internal tuner, external tuner, or OnAirGT USB tuner. Compares well with the audio on all the other OTA channels in Los Angeles, San Diego, and Mexico.

Falcon_77

06-15-08, 01:05 PM

It looks like we are having a major tropo event locally right now. I lost KCOP/66 and KTTV/65 is very weak. Looking at the analog signals, it appears that I am getting some co-channel interference.

Looking at the tropo forecast seems to confirm this.

http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo_wam.html

Anyone else getting some unusual results today?

jeff2631

06-15-08, 02:08 PM

I'm receiving both KCOP-DT 66 and KTTV-DT 65 from San Diego right now. Good solid signal on them both with an attic 4221.

Mr. Horse

06-15-08, 06:36 PM

So, anybody in the LA area reading the same thing?

Thanks.

Yes, my 4.1 is also super quiet, just like you describe. I just got set up with my new digital TV last week, so I'm not sure how it's been in the past.

memo90061

06-15-08, 09:33 PM

oc-rdx

06-15-08, 11:37 PM

I helped my sister adjust her antenna today. She has a medium size directional antenna sitting in the rafters in her garage. She is in Irvine, 92614 & has the antenna pointing towards Mt Wilson.

We did a rescan on her Zenith CECB and now pick up 58 digital channels, including the subchannels. She was already picking up KFLA 8.1 & 8.2. She is now picking up 8.3 CVTV & 8.4 WSTV. Not sure if these are new channels, as we didn't pick them up 2 weeks ago.

Using TVfool, she can pick up all the stations in green & only one from the yellow group, KFTR & one from pink, KFLA. I was thinking about getting her another antenna to aim at KVCR (PBS). Anyone think any of the other weaker stations are worth investing in a separate antenna for? I think they are mostly non English stations.

Trip in VA

06-16-08, 12:20 AM

Falcon_77

06-16-08, 11:31 AM

KCOP applied to go all the way up to 120 kW on channel 13! That is INSANE power.

I'm wondering why the status date didn't change on the 301 application. It still shows as March 20, when clearly this is a revised maximized filing. If there are more like this, I will need to go back and check the pending filings.

Maybe KCOP is tired of having the worst local signal?

RudyG

06-16-08, 12:03 PM

HoTatII

06-16-08, 03:18 PM

i live in los angeles. my zip code is 90061. what antenna do i need to get KBEH-DT? i think this is the only channel i dont get and i wish I did because its mtv 3 and the mtv 3 quality on dish isnt that good.

I’m not sure KBEH TV Oxnard, is even broadcasting digitally yet. At least from Mt. Wilson it isn’t as with its analog signal. And there may be a reason for that. KBEH’s assigned DTV channel is 24, which is presently used by PBS station KVCR’s analog signal in San Bernardino. Therefore, it could be that KBEH-DT may not begin digital broadcasting as channel 24.1 (plus any sub-channels) until after the 2/09 transition when KVCR will vacate the channel.

HoTatII

06-16-08, 04:37 PM

HOLY CRAP.

KCOP applied to go all the way up to 120 kW on channel 13! That is INSANE power.

I hope they get it.

rdx: What programming is CVTV airing? I'd guess that WSTV is "White Springs TV," an old movies channel that's on free-to-air satellite...

- Trip

Here's the whole rundown;

KFLA-LD (Low power DTV) is currently broadcasting;

8.1— Main KFLA-LD DTV programming

8.2— “Hispanic Christian Community Network” (HCCN). So far only broadcasting a still graphic with station ID and religious background music.

8.3— “Christian Vision Television” (CVTV)- Spanish Christian religious rock music.

8.4- “White Springs Television” (WSTV)- Old (usually “very old”) movies and cartoons.

Trip in VA

06-16-08, 05:51 PM

I'm wondering why the status date didn't change on the 301 application. It still shows as March 20, when clearly this is a revised maximized filing. If there are more like this, I will need to go back and check the pending filings.

It depends on how you're searching. I search by date, choosing today's date as the starting point and the end of the month as the end point. It shows any new applications plus any amendments.

If you search by file number or something, you'll likely miss things like that. But the dates do change for amendments.

Here's the whole rundown;

KFLA-LD (Low power DTV) is currently broadcasting;

Thanks so much for this. It's extremely helpful to me. =)

- Trip

benway

06-16-08, 09:36 PM

nbc audio levels are very low

they also dont flag their feed correctly for 5.1 on some shows, so the audio comes out of the L and R spkrs only, no center channel, which also contributes to the low audio level

CBS have fxed their high audio output for the shows themselves, but the commercials are so LOUD now, its ridiculous

This has been an ongoing issue, and I'll bring it up again.

I'm not entirely sure if this is unique to KNBC-DT in LA, or a national NBC network issue (which I think it is), but I want to gather some evidence first. I have a phone call scheduled on Monday with engineering VPs at NBC in Burbank and also in NY and I want to be sure I'm not alone.

I found the digital audio level on the French Open to be horribly low. I could, of course, turn the volume up on my receiver, but heaven help me if I forgot about it and changed channels. BLAST RIGHT OUT OF THE ROOM ON CHANNEL-CHANGE!

This week, during US Open golf coverage, the digital audio level seems to be even worse. I mean my digital SPL meter shows it to be about 15db below other OTA channels here in LA. That changes dramatically when ads come on, gaining back around 10db (still low, but MUCH MUCH louder than the sports program content).

I was stunned yesterday to watch/listen to the HD Leno show as well as the US Open, both with digital audio through my computer, which has HD capability available through both (1) an HD-cable video card, as well as (2) an external OTA source providing HDMI video input to my display and DD5.1/2.0 digital audio to my Philips HD1500U Dolby Headphone processor/headphones which feeds both headphones as well as the line-input of my sound card.

Remarkably, no matter how I increased volume I could not get the sound level to be acceptably loud. I turned the headphone volume up to max and that was unsuccessful. I turned the Windows mixer line-level input [preamp] UP TO MAX (when using the external OTA source) and that was unsuccessful. Even when watching HDTV in a window (from my HD video card) I had to push the onscreen volume slider up to "9" to have it be "normal" (usually set to "4" or maybe "3" for equivalent volume on other channels).

In other words, my computer HD experiences match what I'm observing on my HDTV watching/listening experience through my primary 34XBR960 and associated digital audio receiver/headphone equipment. It is obviously KNBC-DT or national NBC network which has seemingly dropped the already notoriously low digital audio levels even lower of late... perhaps in a "tune-up" for the Olympics.

NBC's awful audio [dialnorm] levels started back in 2004 with the Athens Olympics when they first went to DD5.1... badly. Audio was horrible for the first few days until they turned it up a bit.

But in the past two weeks, between first the French Open and now the US Open, NBC's audio level seems to have been dropped again... across the programming board.

So, anybody in the LA area reading the same thing?

Thanks.

memo90061

06-16-08, 10:43 PM

I’m not sure KBEH TV Oxnard, is even broadcasting digitally yet. At least from Mt. Wilson it isn’t as with its analog signal. And there may be a reason for that. KBEH’s assigned DTV channel is 24, which is presently used by PBS station KVCR’s analog signal in San Bernardino. Therefore, it could be that KBEH-DT may not begin digital broadcasting as channel 24.1 (plus any sub-channels) until after the 2/09 transition when KVCR will vacate the channel.

hmmm no wonder i dont get it then! haha.

i have another question. does anyone here get channels from san diego or tijuana mexico? in the summer's i used to get the analog channels from san diego and tijuana with an indoor antenna. sometimes they looked ok they never really looked that good but i was able to hear good and see it.

mrow2

06-16-08, 10:49 PM

I live in N. Orange County, near Brea. I have a 4228 antenna with rotor. Orientation seems good. Am nearly direct line of sight to transmitter (a few hills) and fairly good analog reception from L.A. KCET PBS 28 has been great in the past, signal had been around 89, analog is nearly perfect. Picture not viewable some of the time (dropping out). I have a UHF VHF signal booster which has a proven track record. But in the living room (the only DTV) the signal strength is around 58-75 on my Sony 32" LCD (careful nudges on the rotor do make a difference). I noticed it a couple weeks ago, been too busy to investigate. Same thing with my Philips SD recorder which has an ATSC tuner. The other channels seem ok, signals around 89-97 give or take. What is the story with KCET? When I first noticed it, I guessed they had a temp problem and would fix it. Even KLCS LA Unified is stronger than KCET. Any info appreciated. Thx Don

Trip in VA

06-17-08, 12:23 AM

KTTV joins KCOP. KTTV wants 115 kW on channel 11.

In addition, KCBS has now asked for 1000 kW on channel 43.

- Trip

HoTatII

06-17-08, 08:13 AM

KTTV joins KCOP. KTTV wants 115 kW on channel 11.

In addition, KCBS has now asked for 1000 kW on channel 43.

- Trip

I'm just puzzled by the decision of KCBS to locate their new post-transition channel 43 DTV antenna on KCAL’s Mount Alta tower site to the SE. Why would they abandon their huge historic approx. 300 meter tower (1000+ meters HAAT) at the CBS compound in Deer Park for KCAL’s smaller tower?

Wouldn't it be more sensible and advantageous to simply broadcast their post-transition DTV channel 43 from their present taller approx. 300 meter tower as they currently are doing with their pre-trans. DTV channel 60?

Falcon_77

06-17-08, 09:39 AM

I'm just puzzled by the decision of KCBS to locate their new post-transition channel 43 DTV antenna on KCAL’s Mount Alta tower site to the SE. Why would they abandon their huge historic approx. 300 meter tower (1000+ meters HAAT) at the CBS compound in Deer Park for KCAL’s smaller tower?

Wouldn't it be more sensible and advantageous to simply broadcast their post-transition DTV channel 43 from their present taller approx. 300 meter tower as they currently are doing with their pre-trans. DTV channel 60?

I don't know what KCBS plans for their old tower. I'm assuming that KCBS-FM will still be broadcasting from there, but it does seem like a bit of a waste to give up the highest tower on Mt. Wilson for TV purposes. Does anyone know the long-term plans for the KCBS tower?

It looks like things are starting to get interesting with the ERP's, but I didn't really expect these kinds of powers here.

Falcon_77

06-17-08, 09:43 AM

I'm getting some tropo on channel 12 this morning. Is anyone else seeing it?

It appears to be coming from the Central time zone in Mexico, judging by the time (2 hours ahead). I've attached a couple pictures. Can anyone identify this station?

Tropo events aside, is there an chance that channel 12 could be used locally, now that adjacent channels can be in the same market.

Falcon_77

06-17-08, 10:54 AM

It appears to be coming from the Central time zone in Mexico, judging by the time (2 hours ahead). I've attached a couple pictures. Can anyone identify this station?

Perhaps the Central time zone was a red herring. This could have been national Televisa content re-broadcast on XEWT in Tijuana. This seems likely at this point, since the time changed to Pacific after 7am.

Somehow, getting Tijuana 12 isn't as exciting as a more distant find, but it also answers my question about using 12 locally. It won't happen with XEWT 12 relatively close, I'm assuming.

HarrisonS

06-17-08, 11:26 AM

I'm just puzzled by the decision of KCBS to locate their new post-transition channel 43 DTV antenna on KCAL’s Mount Alta tower site to the SE. Why would they abandon their huge historic approx. 300 meter tower (1000+ meters HAAT) at the CBS compound in Deer Park for KCAL’s smaller tower?

Wouldn't it be more sensible and advantageous to simply broadcast their post-transition DTV channel 43 from their present taller approx. 300 meter tower as they currently are doing with their pre-trans. DTV channel 60?

Their decision may well have something to do with a change in requirements related to the big change in wavelength of their signal. The very long wavelength of channel 2 may have required the very large tower in order to prevent significant distortion of the radiated pattern at that frequency.

The very much shorter wavelength at channel 43 would permit a much lower tower to be used. Of course, a higher tower would still be advantageous, but this might be outweighed by maintenace issues with the taller tower.

memo90061

06-17-08, 02:46 PM

i used to get XEWT on my old tv in the summers but i dont get it anymore. they used to broadcast novelas from el canal de las estrellas. i wish i lived closer to the border so i can get channels from tijuana.

Trip in VA

06-17-08, 04:40 PM

I'm just puzzled by the decision of KCBS to locate their new post-transition channel 43 DTV antenna on KCAL’s Mount Alta tower site to the SE.

Because there's already a channel 43 antenna up there for KCAL and it costs $$$ to get a tower crew up there to take the antenna off the one tower and move it to another (not to mention the down-time that would cause)?

- Trip

memo90061

06-17-08, 05:18 PM

i checked to see if i got any channels from tijuana and the only one i got was channel 21 which is azteca 7. i wasnt able to see it clearly but i was able to hear it good.

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/1571/27291520rl3.jpg

HoTatII

06-18-08, 07:11 AM

Because there's already a channel 43 antenna up there for KCAL and it costs $$$ to get a tower crew up there to take the antenna off the one tower and move it to another (not to mention the down-time that would cause)?

- Trip

This may very well be the case. But it was my assumption that as with their analog predecessors the manufacturers of DTV antenna systems would naturally be designed for the sake of economy to be usable over a sufficient bandwidth or channel range. Therefore the DTV antenna array presently on the KCBS Deer Park tower, broadcasting on UHF channel 60 could operate on channel 43 as well.

Also, if it were a simple matter of a cost-saving move for KCBS to reuse KCAL’s current channel 43 DTV antenna on their Mount Alta tower after the transition. Then why the construction permit (CP) for a new DTV antenna on the tower located on file here?

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/eng_tv.pl?Application_id=1241911

Trip in VA

06-18-08, 07:17 AM

Not sure which new antenna you're referring to. Looks to me like the antenna they filed for there is the same antenna that is shown on the KCAL-DT construction permit they've had since 2004.

- Trip

HoTatII

06-18-08, 08:31 AM

Not sure which new antenna you're referring to. Looks to me like the antenna they filed for there is the same antenna that is shown on the KCAL-DT construction permit they've had since 2004.

- Trip

OK;

I found the detailed discription of it here.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=633308

And it is indeed the same KCAL DTV antenna...:o

I guess I should have surmissed as much when the construction permit listed only "a minor modification."

VenturaTVViewer

06-19-08, 10:14 AM

HarrisonS

06-19-08, 11:23 AM

Trying to understand refraction, and how the signals refract on the far downslope of a hill. Need someone to articulate for various hills and for various signals, signal strengths how the signals tend to react. Does power play into it. Does height of the hill. Angle of the signal from source. Angle to the desired geographical location of the antenna. Thanks. Have a great summer day!

Refraction is affected by all of the factors you mentioned, except signal strength. In addition, signal frequency is another critical parameter. The key to understanding refraction is Snell's Law, which describes the bending of the signal path at the interface between two layers of air that have slightly different indices of refraction at that frequency.

In cases where the air temperature gradient is more gradual, there will be a corresponding, gradual gradient in the index of refraction. This will cause a curved signal path. This can give rise to effects likk ducting. Mathematically, this would be modeled by treating the air as if it were composed of thin layers, each having its own index of refraction.

As you can see, the whole phenomenon is very complex, and very geometry-dependent. I hope this helps.

HoTatII

06-19-08, 02:43 PM

mrow2

06-19-08, 02:52 PM

Orvac Electronics has a sister store in San Gab or San Fernando Valley, forget which but seems like they might have mentioned it was in San Gabriel or nearby. They carry an assortment of ants which include Winegard. You could check with Orvac in Fullerton for their sister stores.

mrow2

06-19-08, 02:55 PM

Gary, I wonder if you might be a candidate for the XG91? many regard it as the best. I use a CM4228 which is good but you might be located such that a more directional antenna with higher gain (the XG91) might work well and especially seems to work ok for the VHF DTV channels after 02/09. -- Don

VenturaTVViewer

06-19-08, 09:37 PM

Falcon_77

06-20-08, 12:03 AM

I guest that's it in lieu of refraction, though it seems both is in play here. Wondering when a signal encounters a hill and it diffracts, does it do so at the top, or does it bend around the hill from all sides available. What types of frequencies, or stations, for the Los Angeles Mount Wilson antennas are the best candidates for overcoming obstacles. Cheers.

I think this would be a good read:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html

The short answer is the lower the frequency, the better it will diffract, so you will probably have the best chance for 7,9,11,13 when they go back to VHF, but from the plots I recall from before, even those are going to take quite a bit of luck to pull in. What are you getting on analog VHF now?

Diffraction is not just over the top of the hills, check out the skyline multipath section on the above.

HarrisonS

06-20-08, 10:08 AM

VenturaTVViewer

06-20-08, 10:26 AM

Getting Analog: 3 (KEYT SB), 4 (KNBC-LA) no sound, 5 KTLA sometimes, 7 KABC-LA, 13 Snowy, 18 Good w/sound, 23 KIMG-Ventura Excellent, 28 KCET-LA sometimes, 38 Spanish Great, 45 KTBN-Ventura Excellent, 50 KOCE-LA Good sometimes, 52 Snowy.

Digital from Santa Barbara: 3.1 KEYT-HD, 3.2 KEYT-SD. 38.1 KPMR-DT, 38.2 KTSB-DT.

Digital "Hits" no picture, no sound from Los Angeles: 32 KOCE, 36 KNBC, 41KLCS, 47, 48 KOCE, 51 KXLA, 53 KABC.

At this point on 2/17/2009 will go to digital from Santa Barbara from above and analog channels 23 KIMG-Ventura and 45 KTBN-Ventura.

Based on a review of HDTV Primer will look into moving away from a tree, and towards a side of the hill where it appears the signal may be coming from in lieu of directly to Mount Wilson. Many thanks for the input. :cool:

VenturaTVViewer

06-20-08, 11:08 AM

Looking into combining current Winegard GS-2200 with a RS in-line signal amplifier, combined with two RS little bowties, one bowtie towards Santa Barbara transmitters, other bowtie for two local channels unamplified. So, the Winegard would go from 15 db to 25 db, one existing RS bowtie towards Santa Barbara also amplified with either the same, or other RS in-line signal amplifier at plus 10 db. This system can handle canyon winds, and is low profile on the roof.:)

oc-rdx

06-20-08, 03:22 PM

I think this would be a good read:

Falcon, Thanks for the hdtvprimer link. Very interesting.

I originally found AVS Forum when I was researching CECBs. I've learned a lot of additional info from these threads. Based on info, such as Falcon's above, I've helped two of my sisters move their antennas, vs just turning them. Their reception has improved and they receive more stations now. I think I'll work on my dad's antenna next.

Falcon_77

06-20-08, 03:32 PM

I've helped two of my sisters move their antennas, vs just turning them. Their reception has improved and they receive more stations now. I think I'll work on my dad's antenna next.

Great!

Another thought I had is why so many local outdoor antennas are pointed in different directions (not towards Mt. Wilson).

I don't think that most are trying to receive San Diego or KVCR, etc. or null out multi-path. Getting a large antenna only to point it in the wrong direction is counter-productive. Perhaps many have just been neglected and blown around by the wind? :confused:

mrow2

06-20-08, 09:50 PM

I have wondered the same too, in O.C. for decades actually but even more so in the past 15 yrs. I think it's neglect but we may see a resurgence as people balk at paying so much for Sat and Cable. Thanks for your help with the spreadsheet & all the info.
I've now pored over these threads for hours since my last visit over a year ago. What I don't know would fill outer space.

Regarding your question of what I'm getting on VHF now, I am getting 7 fine, 9 is good, 11 pretty good, 13 a little weak (probably some crosstalk between my two antennas since I evidently don't have them properly combined). Without the VHF antenna 7 is the weakest but it comes in with a little noise.

mrow2

06-20-08, 10:05 PM

For those in the LA area and others who might be interested KCET is the big PBS here, there are other smaller ones too. And yet, I was surprised to learn this week that their DTV signal at 194,000 watts is insignificant compared with their analog at 2.5 million watts. He mentioned another area station that is now broadcasting digital at the 1,000,000 watt legal limit.
I had been thinking all along that KCET seemed weak. He didn't exactly say, but I would presume that when they revert to their analog freq for digital next year, the digital signal would then be increased. After some tweaking the best I can do with the current signal is an 80 or 81 at 25 miles with some houses and a low hill in between. My other digitals are all around 89-95, for LA. This engineer said what we already know that a lot less power is required with DTV than with analog.

TonyW79SFV

06-21-08, 12:43 AM

I didn't see this mentioned here, but I thought that I post it for the record; both KTLA and KABC have HD capable live trucks. KTLA had theirs for a month or more (I remembered a live shot for Tax Day at the USPS office in Van Nuys was HD) and was used mostly for the entertainment segment when they go live at a party while KABC had theirs for less than a month and used mostly for top of the news live shots like earlier this week for the issuing of marriage licenses for gay couples in Beverly Hills. However, I think KABC might have two HD live trucks as there were back to back live shots in HD from two different locations about the heat wave. It's easier to tell KTLA's live shots are HD since they only use pillarboxed 4X3 for SD material compared to KABC's extensive use of composite anamorphic SD.

HarrisonS

06-21-08, 01:36 PM

mrow2

06-22-08, 01:01 AM

mrow2

06-22-08, 01:06 AM

("I didn't see this mentioned here, but I thought that I post it for the record; both KTLA and KABC have HD capable live trucks. KTLA had theirs for a month or more (I remembered a live shot for Tax Day at the USPS office in Van Nuys was HD) and was used mostly for the entertainment segment when they go live at a party while KABC had theirs for less than a month and used mostly for top of the news live shots like earlier this week for the issuing of marriage licenses for gay couples in Beverly Hills. However, I think KABC might have two HD live trucks as there were back to back live shots in HD from two different locations about the heat wave. It's easier to tell KTLA's live shots are HD since they only use pillarboxed 4X3 for SD material compared to KABC's extensive use of composite anamorphic SD.")

I didn't think this was anything noteworthy, had been noticing HD remote feeds for a long time, just about since they had been doing news in HD. Am I dreaming this? I also recall seeing feeds that were not HD and that they have been mixing remote feeds and reports with SD and HD all the time. Makes sense I guess. Seems quite logical they would have remote trucks with HD gear, seems like no big deal really. Some of the gear might even be compatible.

RudyG

06-22-08, 01:41 AM

RudyG

06-22-08, 01:45 AM

Does anyone here have a contact at KVCR? Since they have launched their HD channel several months ago they have been treating it as a 480i channel. Even show HD content with bars on the sides and top/bottom. I tried sending a question to their head of engineering department, but sadly I was ignored. Would love to know why they don't show HD content as HD. :confused:

Rudy

Falcon_77

06-22-08, 10:30 AM

WHat was the million watt station?

I'm assuming they are speaking of KOCE in this case, though there are other local stations at 1000kW.

KCET has been trying to get more power for their post-transition allotment on 28, which was 107kW (vs. the current 190 kW on 59). The current application filing, however is only for 14.8kW:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=633688

See the bottom comments here for more info:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101238053&formid=340&fac_num=13058

Where is their maximized filing?

I can get KCET ok in South OC right now, but it's probably the 4th or 5th worst station as respects signal strength/reliability.

Trip in VA

06-22-08, 10:31 AM

The maximized filing will likely show up this evening after midnight. Friday was the last day to file such things without the thread of Class A stations encroaching on stations' coverage areas.

- Trip

HarrisonS

06-22-08, 10:37 AM

My KCET contact said that financial resources were too thin to expend on the existing digital setup, that they had been using this power since the beginning of DTV. He also said they had reports of good reception in parts of South Orange County, but one would have to figure it's hit and miss. In my own case, I am going to be looking at my cables and splitters because at one time my digital signal for KCET had been better than 80. He called the million-watt station a flamethrower, as far as the DTV world was concerned.

Of course South Orange County is in direct line of sight to Mt. Wilson; much of Southern CA is not. I have always thought that Mt.Wilson was a poor choice for TV transmitters; however, back in the 1940s when it was undoubtedly chosen, the demographic situation was very different.

Ideally, it would be nice if KCET could swap transmitters, and use the "flamethrower" for the digital channels. I doubt if many people who still only have analog TVs watch public television anyway. However, the retuning required may be too expensive or impractical because of the big frequency difference and bandwidth requirements. And then again, they would have to move it back next February.

HarrisonS

06-22-08, 11:59 AM

I'm assuming they are speaking of KOCE in this case, though there are other local stations at 1000kW.

KCET has been trying to get more power for their post-transition allotment on 28, which was 107kW (vs. the current 190 kW on 59). The current application filing, however is only for 14.8kW:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=633688

See the bottom comments here for more info:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101238053&formid=340&fac_num=13058

Where is their maximized filing?

I can get KCET ok in South OC right now, but it's probably the 4th or 5th worst station as respects signal strength/reliability.

No wonder KOCE has a much stronger signal than KCET!

I don't understand this about KCET! Under the present permit status, would they have to reduce power from 190 to 107 kW or to 14.8 kW?

KCET is also the fourth worst here in the NW SF Valley. KCOP and KLCS are as good as nonexistent, and KTTV is solid only about 70% of the time.

Trip in VA

06-22-08, 12:40 PM

HarrisonS

06-22-08, 01:21 PM

KCOP and KTTV will get better next year most likely, when they go to 120 and 115 kW on channels 13 and 11, respectively.

KLCS was at low-power or on a backup antenna or something last time I heard. Lightning damage.

KCET, if not granted maximization (I have no doubt they'll get it, but), would have to operate on channel 28 at 14.8 kW. I imagine they'll try to boost power a whole bunch.

- Trip

Thank you for the info. KLCS has always been weak, even on analog, and I never could get a good signal, when anything at all; it was very snowy at best. And I have never gotten its digital signal. At 14.8 kW KCET might just as well suspend operations completely. Even 107 kW would be unsatisfactory, although the lower frequency (and correspondingly increased wavelength) might offer a slight extra boost from diffraction for reaching areas that are not quite LOS.

Trip in VA

06-22-08, 02:17 PM

At 14.8 kW KCET might just as well suspend operations completely. Even 107 kW would be unsatisfactory, although the lower frequency (and correspondingly increased wavelength) might offer a slight extra boost from diffraction for reaching areas that are not quite LOS.

I don't expect KCET to stay at either number. Their issue, though, is that there's a digital signal on 28 in Tijuana, XHJK-DT. That may limit power in that direction. Despite that, I'd still expect to see their power up north of 200 kW. We'll likely know in 10 hours or so.

Honestly, I think KCET should have looked into an alternate channel. Maybe they did and concluded this is the best they could do, though I don't see (at first glance, anyway) how it'd be any better than channel 50 or something.

- Trip

Falcon_77

06-22-08, 03:20 PM

I don't expect KCET to stay at either number. Their issue, though, is that there's a digital signal on 28 in Tijuana, XHJK-DT. That may limit power in that direction. Despite that, I'd still expect to see their power up north of 200 kW. We'll likely know in 10 hours or so.

I wonder how many we will see tonight. I had expected a larger response thus far as respects maximization filings, but maybe we will see a couple hundred tonight?

KCET also has to steer clear of causing undue adjacent channel interference to KEYT DTV 27, though at 110 miles away (and with hills in the way) I wouldn't think this would be too serious.

Am I understanding it correctly that stations returning to their analog channels effectively lose the coverage area rights they formerly had (on analog), if a DTV station is already operating within its vicinity? In other words, stations like KCET won't be allowed to replicate their former contours, even with the lifting of the filing freeze?

In this case KEYT was on 3 for analog, but is on 27 for DTV, so they need to be protected as respects 27 before KCET is given consideration for 28?

Trip in VA

06-22-08, 03:58 PM

Right, but KCET only has to protect KEYT-DT for the 250 kW they're running now, and not the 1000 kW they'd originally hoped to be running (KEYT said in a filing that they relinquished the protection for the 1000 kW so KCET could power up more, actually). They also have to protect XHJK-DT in Tijuana. I don't think they have to worry about KFTR-DT on 29 since it's co-located.

As I recall, all of the channel elections and whatnot generally came in on the last two days to file, with about 40% of all filings occurring on the very last day. I won't be surprised if I'm up til 2AM getting them all put into the DTR page. =)

The filings may also continue coming in over the next few days, but with file numbers indicating they were actually filed on time.

I don't communicate with stations very much, so rarely do I know about plans in advance, but even I know of three stations which are 100% certainly going to maximize but have not yet showed up on the FCC site. Two of those were publicly stated in FCC records (WCAU and WNCN) and the other is confidential until the filing shows up. I expect to see all of those, plus many more, this evening.

- Trip

narkspud

06-22-08, 07:02 PM

There appears to be a new subchannel in our midst. KSCI has an 18-7 (yes, 7) on the air now, showing a logo still for "Vietnamese American Network Television." That makes 4 SD program streams for them.

Oh lordy, now they've also got one on 18-6 advertising a Chinese channel. You don't suppose they're going to attempt 7 subchannels, do you? Are they even allowed to do that?

Falcon_77

06-23-08, 12:42 AM

It seems my 200 estimate for maximization filings will fall well under the actual count. It is already up to 277. A few I've noticed for the local area:

KBEH/24 - they want to move to Mt. Wilson and increase their ERP to 1000kW. However, coverage of Oxnard won't be that great and if it's the City of License, will the FCC go for it?

KSCI/18 - they want to increase their post-transition ERP to 700kW. I can't see this being granted with KUSI and KSWB so close.

KCET/28 - filed for 155kW, certainly better than 14.8kW, but it's still lower than they have now.

Falcon_77

06-23-08, 01:16 AM

Both KLCS and KRCA have asked for 1000kW on their maximized filings. Is KCET really going to be ok with 155kW (if they even get that much)?

WackyPacks

06-23-08, 02:10 AM

Oh lordy, now they've also got one on 18-6 advertising a Chinese channel. You don't suppose they're going to attempt 7 subchannels, do you? Are they even allowed to do that?

From what I have heard, KSCI actually had a Chinese subchannel a couple years??? ago. Since nobody had atsc tuners back then, there was probably almost no audience. They used ETTV??? for their programming. Wonder who will they use now? It would not surprise me if it were mostly CCTV stuff & various South Korean dubs.

HarrisonS

06-23-08, 12:00 PM

... now they've also got one on 18-6 advertising a Chinese channel. You don't suppose they're going to attempt 7 subchannels, do you? Are they even allowed to do that?

They already have! Check it out - there really is an 18-7 on now. Maybe we should all get together and start our own subchannel on 18-8, or whatever! :D

narkspud

06-23-08, 05:56 PM

I know there's an 18-7. What I'm wondering is if they're going to light up 7 subchannels at the same time. They've got 5 now, since there is no 18-4 or 18-5 yet.

WackyPacks

06-23-08, 07:57 PM

Okay, I finally viewed 18.6. because it was a hassle to disconnect the cable. Screen says TopTV which seems to be a network based in Taiwan.

After visiting their website, one gets the impression that TopTV is a minor network in Taiwan. One a typical weekday, they might have a half-dozen shows that are simply replayed multiple times.

HarrisonS

06-24-08, 10:57 AM

I know there's an 18-7. What I'm wondering is if they're going to light up 7 subchannels at the same time. They've got 5 now, since there is no 18-4 or 18-5 yet.

Actually 18.5 is active now. It carries Armenian language programming full-time. It is subchannels 2, 3, and 4 that are not "lit up".

narkspud

06-24-08, 11:26 AM

Actually 18.5 is active now. It carries Armenian language programming full-time. It is subchannels 2, 3, and 4 that are not "lit up".

You're correct (and I was wrong) about .5, but incorrect about .2 (at least as of last night, although things seem to be changing rapidly over there at 18). It's

18.1 (main channel)
18.2 (different programming in prime time, looks mostly Chinese)
18.5 (Armenian Network)
18.6 (Top TV)
18.7 (The Vietnamese-American thing)

In other news, a little bird told me that KJLA has received the FCC's permission to shut off their analog (Channel 57) in as soon as two months:

http://www.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2008/db0619/DA-08-1440A1.pdf

dotheDVDeed

06-24-08, 11:58 AM

Caught a segment inserted into the Today Show from KNBC News that was HD. Have they finally (finally) switched over?

....NO ... Apparently it's only a test. Just the 30 sec. weather inserts are done in HD.

WackyPacks

06-24-08, 01:37 PM

18.2's Primetime schedule is just replays of selected shows aired on 18.1 earlier that day. So 18.2 carries no unique content.

ckc11

06-25-08, 01:59 PM

I just wanted to share my results in case anyone in my area is thinking of switching to OTA. I'm so glad I did and so will you if you haven't cut your cable/satellite!

I live in Irvine between the Jeffrey and Sand Canyon exits off the 5 and get all the major channels with no problems with an indoor amplified antenna and I'm 40+ miles away from the nearest towers. I have an older hdtv with a built in TV tuner and when I was first experimenting with different indoor antennas etc., my reception was not so good. I could only get a few digital channels (e.g. CW, PBS, CBS). ABC was spotty, on/off, and I could not get digital FOX at all. I tried different antennas, Terk TV5, the Phillips MANT510, and a Radio Shack 15-1878. The Phillips was slightly better than the Terk and when I put it up on top of a bookshelf on the 2nd floor (as high as I could without going into the attic), the reception was slightly better, but not great. The Radio Shack and Phillips both perform the same so I am using the cheaper Radio Shack one at the moment still. I would have to constantly fiddle with it to get ABC/FOX to come in, but I could get them. I got fed up and finally bought a new HDTV tuner (samsung dtb-h260f), one with the latest 5th gen 8VSB chipset, and that made all the difference. I can now get all the channels clearly without needing to fuss with the antenna. The new tuner locks in on weak and multipath signals so much better and never drops out. So if you're having problems with your signal cutting in/out, you might want to try a new tuner.

I will eventually get up in the attic and put an antenna up there once the switchover happens in 2009, but for now I couldn't be happier with my setup. No more fiddling with the antenna and I get all the digital channels crystal clear. OTA HDTV rocks! I'm still amazed at the quality of the picture you can get for free over the air.

A few great resources besides this forum are antennaweb, tvfool, hdtvexpert.com to name a few that I found really helpful. I hope this helps other people on their OTA HDTV quest.

HarrisonS

06-27-08, 11:00 AM

Did KLCS suddenly increase their power? I never got its DTV signal before, but just now I tuned to it (ch 41.1) just to see if I would get any meter reading on it, and to my amazement it came in!

narkspud

06-27-08, 01:45 PM

KLCS's transmitters got clobbered by lightning some months ago and they just recently repaired the damage.

HarrisonS

06-27-08, 02:49 PM

KLCS's transmitters got clobbered by lightning some months ago and they just recently repaired the damage.

Thanks for the info. Interestingly, however, I do not think KLCS was ever anywhere near this strong, not even before the storm!

HarrisonS

06-28-08, 12:31 PM

A friend of mine has DirectTV, but no OTA capability. She told me that you tune in local channels by simply entering the channel number preceded by 0's; for example, one would enter "004" to tune to channel 4 (or 4.1). This sounds as though it would be impossible to tune to other subchannels, such as, for example 4.4. Is this true, or is there a way to tune in all active subchannels?

coyoteaz

06-28-08, 06:46 PM

DirecTV does not carry extra subchannels.

Falcon_77

06-28-08, 10:14 PM

Looking at the two broadcasts, it makes me wonder if KCOP is ever going to broadcast any games in HD. Looking at the same game on poor quality SD (KCOP) vs. high quality HD (KCAL), makes it clear which station/team(?) takes broadcasting more seriously.

I'm going to send another note to both KCOP and the Angels to see what they can do to get up to speed.

What does KCOP actually broadcast in HD with their 720p signal?

Edit: Added screen shots from both feeds to illustrate the difference.

jpasadena

06-29-08, 01:18 AM

HarrisonS

06-29-08, 10:06 AM

HarrisonS

06-29-08, 10:09 AM

DirecTV does not carry extra subchannels.

That is what I was afraid of. Thanks for the info; I will convey the bad news.

Falcon_77

06-29-08, 10:46 AM

First I tried my 5-yr-old Terk-style indoor set-top antenna that was serviceable for analog reception of channels 2-9. It does great for the Mt. Wilson stations that have LOS, and even pulls in KVCR 50 miles away, but basically comes up empty with the network stations. With some fiddling, I can get the KNBC signal intermittently, but that's it.

What do the analog UHF signals look like? Snowy, ghosty, etc?

The board probably won't let you post your TV Fool plot until you have 5 posts, but I would like to look at it when possible. Looking at the TV Fool coverage maps, I picked an area in the purple, right next to the mountains. If that is what you are dealing with, I would suggest trying a Channel Master 4221 or possibly the larger 4228. These are not small, but I don't think an indoor rabbit ear/loop combo is going to get it done. You could try a Silver Sensor, but I don't think it will be enough. Fry's Electronics usually carries all of these antennas.

I think a pre-amp would be a problem here as the other stations are in the line of sight. It would probably overload any pre-amp including the high-input Winegard HDP-269.

jpasadena

06-29-08, 12:43 PM

What do the analog UHF signals look like? Snowy, ghosty, etc?

Yes, all of these. KCET-28 was painful to sit thru. Even the high VHF analog (11, 13) were barely there with an indoor antenna.

Looking at the TV Fool coverage maps, I picked an area in the purple, right next to the mountains.

I am not even that bad off. More like blueish-green zones on the tvfool maps. Using the Google Earth files, I am oh-so-close to having LOS with the network towers. I should also add that there are some thick trees between my house and the towers.

holl_ands

06-29-08, 05:16 PM

Trying to get onboard the digital OTA train here in Pasadena. Problem is, in far northeast Pasadena, the LOS to Mt. Wilson is blocked by another ridge of the San Gabriel Mts. I do have LOS to the east antenna farm of Mt. Wilson, but that consists of the usually uninteresting stations such as KSCI, KPXN etc. All the networks are at the main Mt. Wilson site. So, with my new Zenith converter box, and old TV, the digital signals are sparse.

First I tried my 5-yr-old Terk-style indoor set-top antenna that was serviceable for analog reception of channels 2-9. It does great for the Mt. Wilson stations that have LOS, and even pulls in KVCR 50 miles away, but basically comes up empty with the network stations. With some fiddling, I can get the KNBC signal intermittently, but that's it.

So, clearly, I need something with higher gain up on the roof. I called a TV shop in So. Pas. that came recommended, and the guy came out and tried out a Terk HDTVo on the roof. The performance was worse than my old indoor setup. I was not impressed with his work, frankly. He said that all the digital channels are going to be UHF (wrong!), and that a higher gain antenna won't help me. Basically he threw in the towel.

Antennaweb tells me I need a "large directional" antenna, and tvfool shows that in theory I should be able to get all the Mt. Wilson stations with the right antenna because I am in 1st edge diffraction zone (at least that's how I interpreted their report). So what do I really need here? How can I test one of the high gain antennas without committing big bucks to another service call, or to a major DIY roof project that I'm not sure I'm up for? There may not even be a shop in Pasadena that has rooftop antennas in stock. Which antenna type/model might do the job?

I would like to keep away from cable or satellite. How can I avoid being one of the early victims of the OTA transition?
Can you provide your location to nearby cross streets?
You may also have serious MULTIPATH, with signals bouncing off nearby hills.

If you are LOS to lower stations (KSCI, KPXN, KVEA, etc), they can "capture"
the AGC control action, preventing reception of weak channels within four, five
or more channel positions of the strong analog & digital stations.
Strong signals ALSO generate intermods throughout the band, desensitizing
reception for many of the primary non-LOS stations.

Preamps and amplified antennas are not going to work.
The Terk HDTVo is amplified. Was your old Terk also amplified?
A roof-mounted, non-amplified antenna can ALSO desensitize your
tuner's input, since you're only a few miles away. Gotta be careful....

First eliminate any amplified antennas, preamps or distribution amplifiers.
Second, insert a small amount of attenuation between the antenna and
the tuner, such as an RF Splitter (2-way is about 4 dB, 4-way is about 8 dB).
The intermod levels are reduced 3 dB for every 1 dB of additional input loss.
Hence a 2-way splitter reduces intermods by about 12 dB.
You can also use a variable attenuator such as:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=1296F
http://www.antennasdirect.com/attenuator.html
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=TA-8700
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=OBO-TA-8700

The goal is to insert enough attenuation to push the intermod signal levels down
to about the same level as the thermal noise floor, thereby maximizing the
"Spurious Free Dynamic Range" (SFDR). For more info, search forum for "SFDR".

jpasadena

06-30-08, 01:11 AM

Success! (mostly).
But first...

Can you provide your location to nearby cross streets?

leonard and cartwright pasadena, ca

That's 3-5 miles from all the Mt. Wilson transmitters, true azimuth 1-12 degrees. Funny how being too close to the source can cause problems.

So I liked what I heard about the CM 4228. Something like, "if you can't get your UHF station with this, give up." They had them in stock at Fry's in Burbank for $70, and they promised they would take it back for a full refund within 30 days, so why not?

I had an idea that I could mount it inside my garage (still might), but the performance didn't really take off until I propped it up on the roof and pointed it roughly at Mt. Wilson. I was pleasantly surprised to see all the major network channels lock on. All that are missing among the major L.A. stations are 11, 13 and 28. I can see the levels on these in my tuner's menu, and they are just borderline, so perhaps with some clever positioning I can get them too.

In Feb. 2009, the channel assignments are switching around quite a bit here, so it will be interesting to see how the CM 4228 performs in the high VHF (7,9,11,13). At that point I may have to augment the 4228 with some VHF elements, but we'll see. In the meantime, I need to affix this antenna properly to the roof and run the line to my TV. And then, maybe a real HDTV...

Thanks to the folks on this board. The response was rapid and very helpful. I hope that this exchange will help others in a similar situation. And in case Google is lurking: Channel Master 4228 excellent HDTV reception.

Falcon_77

06-30-08, 02:17 AM

All that are missing among the major L.A. stations are 11, 13 and 28.

As for KCOP/66, its reputation is far from good as respects signal strength and/or quality. I don't know what the problem is, but I don't think we will see them make any changes until they move back to 13.

KTTV/65 is right next to it, but their signal improved for me several months ago.

As for KCET/59, well, who knows if they will ever get an appropriate level of power again. However, when they move back to 28, the lower frequency should bend a bit better.

I think the odds are good that the 4228 will be sufficient for 7, 9, 11 & 13. Especially if all 4 stations get the ERP increases they are asking for (25/25/115/120kW).

Thanks for the update. Always nice to hear success stories. :)

VenturaTVViewer

07-09-08, 02:47 PM

Wondering about coverage for Barstow, Zip 92311. Few channels. Bakersfield, Los Angeles, and some local channels: Victorville. Wondering what type of antenna would pull in from these distant transmitters.

narkspud

07-09-08, 04:22 PM

I put your zip code into tvfool.com. You're almost entirely on translators there, all coming from due east. It looks like unless you're a big fan of Channel 64, KHIZ, there isn't even any point in messing with digital until they get you some digital translators.

Unless you want to make TV antennas a full-time hobby, I'd stick with cable or satellite if I were you.

VenturaTVViewer

07-10-08, 09:07 AM

Thanks, this is for some people we know who live in Barstow zip 92311. Do see a few antennas out there for the few stations.

ggratecc

07-11-08, 05:19 PM

Additional info... I live in Granada hills, 91344 which is about 25 miles from the tower and my antenna is facing toward the tower. And yes, I tried turning the antenna to different directions but that didn't help. In fact, turning it to different direction made other channels disappear.

Yoskai, I am a neighbor of yours...live in Mission Hills near Sepulveda/Mayall.
I have an old, medium sized vhf/uhf antenna mounted on my roof directly pointing (horizontal mast) at Mt. Wilson (exactly 81 degree compass). There are are some trees and even power lines in the way, but I have a tripod and mast that does not move too much when it is windy. Also I use NO amplifier, just a good RG6 cable down to my ATSC tuner. I have 3 different tuners in the house and I have no problem getting KCAL, KTTV or any other available signal.
The 9.1 and 11.1 are on the weak side and the solution is probably pointing the antenna exactly on the compass heading required and good cable and connectors. Let me know if you need more.
Greg

HarrisonS

07-12-08, 02:05 PM

dotheDVDeed

07-12-08, 03:56 PM

Falcon_77

07-13-08, 01:26 PM

Is KTBN/23 off the air? I just got back into town and I'm not getting a signal on it. Analog 40 is ok.

oc-rdx

07-13-08, 02:33 PM

I'm no longer getting a signal in Irvine either.

mkpl

07-14-08, 12:33 AM

Is KTBN/23 off the air? I just got back into town and I'm not getting a signal on it. Analog 40 is ok.

Maybe that is why I have been able to pick up XETV-HD (6-1) out of Tijuana recently. It shares channel 23 with KTBN.

Edwood

07-14-08, 02:27 AM

Any recommendations for an antenna installer with experience with non-penetrating roof installs? I live in a condo complex in San Pedro. My dual Silver Sensors almost get a solid lock on all channels indoors, but they don't cut the mustard when it's windy or a lot of planes fly overhead.

-Ed

mkpl

07-14-08, 08:22 PM

Channel 4 is finally has a HD local newscast.

HarrisonS

07-15-08, 09:57 AM

Channel 4 is finally has a HD local newscast.

It's really true! I can hardly believe it!

Falcon_77

07-15-08, 08:32 PM

It's really true! I can hardly believe it!

Well, I'll be. It's really there.

So, that leaves FOX/11 for the major networks locally? I wonder when they will catch-up.

HarrisonS

07-16-08, 12:06 PM

KCET 28 Digital Channel causes my Hisense (US Digital) box to lock up after watching for only a couple of minutes. I have no problems watching other digital channels.

Powering off/on doesn't fix problem. I have to hard reboot by holding in the power button.

Any one else seeing problems? Or is this screwy box the only one having problems?

TIM

I have not heard of anyone having the problem you describe. But I do have one observation about KCET's digital signal. It appears to be by far the most unstable of any station at my location. My main receiver, a nearly new Pioneer Elite PDP-150FD plasma brings it in just fine virtually 100% of the time, using a roof antenna and a Winegard 28db gain preamplifier. However, an old 2001-vintage Toshiba DST-3000 set-top box has always struggled with KCET.

The other night I watched the signal fluctuate between 18 and 72, and this is typical. These huge fluctuations occur over periods of less than a minute. It would appear that KCET has a very poor antenna or antenna location, since all other stations, whether weak or strong, are much more steady in signal strength.

blue_z

07-16-08, 03:13 PM

It would appear that KCET has a very poor antenna or antenna location, since all other stations, whether weak or strong, are much more steady in signal strength.

Hi there

In spite of your assertion, I receive a strong and steady signal for KCET-DT. I watched a 1.5 hour program on 28-1 on Sunday night with no problems.

A fluctuating RF signal is more likely a reception issue. Better reception of other channels is not proof that one station has a "very poor" antenna. RF reception and interference are very frequency dependent.

Just a WAG: supposedly the newer ATSC tuners have better multipath rejection. Perhaps the old Toshiba STB is susceptible to such interference?

blue_z

07-16-08, 04:27 PM

KCET 28 Digital Channel causes my Hisense (US Digital) box to lock up after watching for only a couple of minutes.
...
Or is this screwy box the only one having problems?

Hi there

rrrrrroger's post (#12) would indicate that the Hisense tuner is the problem.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14300558#post14300558

HarrisonS

07-17-08, 11:17 AM

Hi there

In spite of your assertion, I receive a strong and steady signal for KCET-DT. I watched a 1.5 hour program on 28-1 on Sunday night with no problems.

A fluctuating RF signal is more likely a reception issue. Better reception of other channels is not proof that one station has a "very poor" antenna. RF reception and interference are very frequency dependent.

Just a WAG: supposedly the newer ATSC tuners have better multipath rejection. Perhaps the old Toshiba STB is susceptible to such interference?

You are absolutely right that a fluctuating RF signal is a reception issue, and that it is frequency dependent. However only KCET (ch 59) has this problem, and both KCBS (ch 60) and KSCI (ch 61) are transmitting on adjacent channels (i.e., almost the same frequency), and they are both rock-steady. Therefore it really looks like KCET has a problem either with its antenna or its antenna location, and that is the reason there is so much more multipath on its signal. Thus it is precisely because of a bad antenna situation that only KCET has this multipath problem.

I have little doubt that the old Toshiba has problems with severe multipath. Like you, I can watch KCET on the 2007-2008 vintage Pioneer with solid reception for hours. But this is not to say that the signal is not fluctuating, but only that the Pioneer can handle those fluctuations without signal breakup. The Toshiba does come in handy, however, as test gear for signal analysis.

HarrisonS

07-17-08, 11:33 AM

Hi there

rrrrrroger's post (#12) would indicate that the Hisense tuner is the problem.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14300558#post14300558

I agree that the Hisense tuner is most likely the problem. But why does the Hisense have the problem only with KCET? It may well be that his tuner has problems with severely fluctuating signals, if indeed rrrrrroger's reception situation is similar to mine.

dotheDVDeed

07-17-08, 11:48 AM

Thanks guys for all the input on that tricky Hisense tuner box problem.

I didn't pay big bucks for it. So I'll live if I have to replace it with a coupon box.

It's not doing it now, but it was repeatable when it was occurring.

KCET will be changing their broadcast frequency after Feb 2009, right? Reception issues may change then.

TIM

p.s. Glad to see KNBC news is HD

DiveFan

07-18-08, 05:13 PM

You are absolutely right that a fluctuating RF signal is a reception issue, and that it is frequency dependent. However only KCET (ch 59) has this problem, and both KCBS (ch 60) and KSCI (ch 61) are transmitting on adjacent channels (i.e., almost the same frequency), and they are both rock-steady. Therefore it really looks like KCET has a problem either with its antenna or its antenna location, and that is the reason there is so much more multipath on its signal. Thus it is precisely because of a bad antenna situation that only KCET has this multipath problem.

I'm inclined to agree that something is wonky with KCET-DT's current site/antenna. I finally got my digital setup going (Zenith DTT901 tuner and RS 'saucer' antenna) and pulled in all locals automatically Except for KCET. After adding manually and 'fine' adjustment of azimuth it barely comes in (some dropouts).

OTOH perennial analog 'dog' KLCS looks great on their DT despite only 13kw ERP (tvfool.com estimate). I even got KVCR-DT/26 in San Bernardino!

Hello blue_z, what city are you in?

narkspud

07-20-08, 01:52 AM

KCET: rock-solid and no signal fluctuations whatsoever here in the OC. Too doggone much compression, though.

HarrisonS

07-20-08, 12:11 PM

KCET: rock-solid and no signal fluctuations whatsoever here in the OC. Too doggone much compression, though.

That is because the OC has a direct, unobstructed line of sight to Mt. Wilson. Much of So Cal (much of the LA basin and SF Valley, etc.) does not.

Falcon_77

07-20-08, 12:16 PM

KCET will be changing their broadcast frequency after Feb 2009, right? Reception issues may change then.

Yes, KCET will be returning to 28, but they have so far been unable to get an ERP to compare with most other local stations. Their app for 155kW is pending, but they were previously allotted 107kW for post-transition ops. KCET currently has 190kW on 59.

I am able to get KCET reliably in S. OC, but it's probably the 4th worst station as respects signal quality.

blue_z

07-20-08, 09:05 PM

Hello blue_z, what city are you in?

Hi there

Fountain Valley, 92708, about 35 miles south of the transmitters.

KCET: rock-solid and no signal fluctuations whatsoever here in the OC. Too doggone much compression, though.

28-1 is 720p.
A concert program of the Cleveland Orchestra on 28-2 was stunning for just a 480i video. There were only a few instances where the PQ suffered and was obviously not HD: in a long shot, the background was very soft, and in close ups, trombones retained jagged edges (the shiny brass may have overworked the nVidia PureVideo decoder). This SD content far suppased ordinary 480i PQ, and had PQ as good as a lot of network HD content. (This 480i program was processed on an HTPC that upscaled to 1280x960p for a CRT projector.) Did not bother to measure the bit rate.

Regards

Falcon_77

07-25-08, 03:27 PM

This nifty little tool covers a good part of the local streets, including one of particular interest: Red Box Rd.

Attached is a picture of some of the antennas visible from Street View. I've been thinking of driving up there, but the road leading up to the mountain looks pretty scary. This may have to do.

WackyPacks

07-27-08, 09:38 PM

Wow, another KSCI subchannel. This time it is 18.3. Channel says MBC which is Korean???

ercjncpr

07-27-08, 10:03 PM

Wow, another KSCI subchannel. This time it is 18.3. Channel says MBC which is Korean???

MBC is one of South Korea's national networks , like our CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox

VenturaTVViewer

08-01-08, 10:29 AM

Picking up Channel 8 from San Diego analog, wondering how far a digital signal can be reliably picked up if there is line of sight to the transmitter. Receiving channel 8 in Ventura.

holl_ands

08-01-08, 03:40 PM

If you can pick up analog signal now (KFMB, CBS on CH8), you'll have a very good chance
of picking up their digital signal after Feb2009 switcheroo....but perhaps only when it's hot....

Depending on local strong signals and intermod issues, you also might get KGTV on CH10.

The path is mostly over water, except for that "speed bump" hill near you.
Signals can have much lower loss when an evaporation duct forms over warm water.
And can quickly vanish when conditions change....so it's not very reliable.

FYI: Recently, KFMB-DT temporarily moved from CH55 to CH7. However, to prevent interference
to L.A. stations, they were required to operate at very low power with an antenna null pointed North.

WackyPacks

08-02-08, 01:39 AM

Anybody have any info on KSCI's 18.6 sub-channel? That is the Chinese channel that was supposed to start in July, but there is nothing there but the same coming-soon image. Even the 18.3 MBC is broadcasting now, and they had a start date of August.

phildaant

08-11-08, 03:03 PM

I am puzzled by your results. I am also in Granada Hills, and while I have had reception problems with a few other DTV stations, KABC-DT is definitely not one of them!Interesting. I have a DB2 bowtie antenna from late 2005 in my upstair room (20 miles from these stations' antenna on Mt. Wilson). I haven't watched TV and used it for about a month. Somehow this morning (8 AM PDT) I was getting low signals KCBS at about 20%-30% according to DVB Viewers in Windows XP Pro. SP3. Did I miss something? I haven't moved or changed much.

Falcon_77

08-11-08, 03:38 PM

KCBS/60 Looks ok from Tustin.

InNOut

08-11-08, 07:31 PM

Do you guys have any suggestion which indoor antenna is the best one? I lived in Porter Ranch, CA.

I looked around and I believe people are recommending DB2 or the Silver Sensor. Also which amplifier do you recommend?

Thanks

Falcon_77

08-11-08, 08:10 PM

InNOut

08-11-08, 09:36 PM

The Silver Sensor works well for me at the office, but I only can recommend it with reservations as it doesn't have any VHF elements. Until 7, 9, 11 & 13 return to their analog channels, it's going to be a bit of a roll of the dice, though current analog reception of those 4 can provide some indication.

Perhaps the Terk Silver Sensor clone, with rabbit ears added, would be ok.

At home, I use full sized attic antennas instead of indoor models.

If you can run a TVFool.com plot for your location and post the results, we can review them, but it looks like the signals may be too strong in parts of Porter Ranch to consider an amp.

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/5078/radarallsc0.png

I borrowed from a friend a Terk (looks similar to Silver Sensor) and a Zenith DTT901 converter and I got around 35 channels. But when I watched the Olympics at MSNBC, sometimes the screen goes blank and also sometimes there's a static on the picture.

I tried to search online for a best OTA set-up and the results are different. Maybe it depends on location of the home. I think I can place the antenna in the attic or garage. The attic is small, a person can only crawl thru it.

Thanks Falcon_77

InNOut

08-11-08, 09:42 PM

Just a note (not sure if it's important), maybe our address is not in the TVFool.com database. It only plots on a city level.

narkspud

08-11-08, 09:48 PM

But when I watched the Olympics at MSNBC, sometimes the screen goes blank and also sometimes there's a static on the picture.

Static on the picture indicates a different problem. Digital doesn't do static. Either the picture is there or it isn't. You sure you aren't watching analog?

By the way, I wouldn't put too much faith in anything with "Terk" written on it. Their products tend to be better at looking pretty than at receiving signals. The real Silver Sensor may look the same, but it performs much better.

InNOut

08-11-08, 09:59 PM

mmm. Maybe you're right. I'll check when I get home if it's analog and if there is HD version of MSNBC.

Thanks!

joe221

08-11-08, 11:17 PM

Static on the picture indicates a different problem. Digital doesn't do static. Either the picture is there or it isn't. You sure you aren't watching analog?

By the way, I wouldn't put too much faith in anything with "Terk" written on it. Their products tend to be better at looking pretty than at receiving signals. The real Silver Sensor may look the same, but it performs much better.

I was just going to say the same. I first bought the Terk (non amped) and couldn't get anything. I returned it and got the Silver Sensor (under Philips brand) from Amazon and never looked back. EVERYTHING comes in hot and crisp. I face East on the third floor with a clear shot at Mt. Wilson about 30 miles away. There's a new version of the SS kinda low and more plastic looking, any word on that one? Mine is the old skinny thing.

HarrisonS

08-12-08, 12:21 PM

Interesting. I have a DB2 bowtie antenna from late 2005 in my upstair room (20 miles from these stations' antenna on Mt. Wilson). I haven't watched TV and used it for about a month. Somehow this morning (8 AM PDT) I was getting low signals KCBS at about 20%-30% according to DVB Viewers in Windows XP Pro. SP3. Did I miss something? I haven't moved or changed much.

I think that the problem is that you are using an indoor antenna. Around here, a roof antenna is a virtual necessity for DTV. I am a bit surprised that your results are even as good as you describe. Aside from the lack of elevation above the ground, you will lose a huge amount of signal strength just going through walls, etc. I find KCBS to be at 100% every time I check it.

narkspud

08-12-08, 01:55 PM

mmm. Maybe you're right. I'll check when I get home if it's analog and if there is HD version of MSNBC.

Thanks!

Oh by the way - I've been assuming you were talking about KNBC, not MSNBC. MSNBC is a cable network. It's not available from an antenna.

phildaant

08-12-08, 04:38 PM

I think that the problem is that you are using an indoor antenna. Around here, a roof antenna is a virtual necessity for DTV. I am a bit surprised that your results are even as good as you describe. Aside from the lack of elevation above the ground, you will lose a huge amount of signal strength just going through walls, etc. I find KCBS to be at 100% every time I check it.Yeah, I can't really put it outside since I would need to drill holes for the coax cable, get a mount, tape down the cable, etc. Plus, I don't own the place.

I will see if I can place it behind the window. I did notice if I stand or move around near the antenna, the signals lower big time.

danki6x

08-12-08, 05:19 PM

I borrowed from a friend a Terk (looks similar to Silver Sensor) and a Zenith DTT901 converter and I got around 35 channels. But when I watched the Olympics at MSNBC, sometimes the screen goes blank and also sometimes there's a static on the picture.

On TW cable viewing NBC-HD of the olympics has regular 1-2 seconds of blank screen with perfect audio during the blanking. This appears to be a transmission/origination issue. And, as someone else pointed out, digital is on or off. Should not be static in the received signal, unless transmitted with it in. /Dan

WackyPacks

08-12-08, 07:00 PM

18.8 is up, although the programs right now are the same as the regular KSCI. Apparently, leasing out sub-channels is a nice way to pull in some steady revenue.

Edit: Looks they were just testing 18.8. Now the channel is off-the-air.

InNOut

08-12-08, 07:31 PM

Oh by the way - I've been assuming you were talking about KNBC, not MSNBC. MSNBC is a cable network. It's not available from an antenna.

Hehe, my mistake again. Mmm... where did I get MSNBC?... maybe because I used to live in Burbank:) The NBC channel is the 2nd channel on the Zenith tuner. Not sure if it is analog or digital. It does not say HD after the NBC name. How do I know the type of signal I'm getting?

On TW cable viewing NBC-HD of the olympics has regular 1-2 seconds of blank screen with perfect audio during the blanking. This appears to be a transmission/origination issue. And, as someone else pointed out, digital is on or off. Should not be static in the received signal, unless transmitted with it in. /Dan

The static I mentioned earlier is when someone walks a certain location near the antenna there is fuzziness on the picture. Thanks on the explaination on the blank screen, I thought I can avoid it by buying a better hardware.

So do you guys think I should get the Philips Silver Sensor, the DB2 or something else?

Thanks
Clark

atscwatcher

08-12-08, 08:20 PM

KCET: rock-solid and no signal fluctuations whatsoever here in the OC. Too doggone much compression, though.

About week ago LA ATSC channel 28-4 (KCET PBS World) suddenly disappeared. It cannot be signal problem because all other sub-channels (28-1, 28-2, 28-3) are still there. Does anybody else has such problem? Does anybody know what happened?

narkspud

08-12-08, 09:14 PM

About week ago LA ATSC channel 28-4 (KCET PBS World) suddenly disappeared. It cannot be signal problem because all other sub-channels (28-1, 28-2, 28-3) are still there. Does anybody else has such problem? Does anybody know what happened?

Temporarily removed by the station due to technical difficulties. Should be back eventually, so we've been told.

The NBC channel is the 2nd channel on the Zenith tuner. Not sure if it is analog or digital. It does not say HD after the NBC name. How do I know the type of signal I'm getting?

KNBC's main signal is channel 4-1. Does it come up as "DTV 4-1"? That's the digital channel.

The static I mentioned earlier is when someone walks a certain location near the antenna there is fuzziness on the picture.

Again, unless you're off on your terminology, there is no "fuzziness" on digital. The Zenith/LG tuners may create a sort of flickery ghosting under certain conditions. If that's what you're seeing, a different box might help, although a better (or better placed) antenna will probably help more.

Thanks on the explaination on the blank screen, I thought I can avoid it by buying a better hardware.

KNBC is the local station most prone to glitches, out-of-sync audio, and assorted other DTV unpleasantries. Don't make too many assumptions based on what's going on there.

So do you guys think I should get the Philips Silver Sensor, the DB2 or something else?

This you will have to decide for yourself. Unlike President Bush, we are not the decision guys.

You have an excellent resource right here on the AVS forum to find out how the various antennas do, and you know better than we do what your circumstances are. Just remember that in the LA market you will need to have both VHF and UHF receiving capability.

Falcon_77

08-12-08, 09:32 PM

Is KCAL-DT/43 down again? I'm not picking up anything on it right now. I will double check when I get home.

I'm experimenting with diplexing in a pair of rabbit ears here at the office, with the Silver Sensor. It makes me wish that we would stay all UHF locally for DTV. I may have to tap into the rooftop antenna at this rate (not currently run into our office).

narkspud

08-12-08, 11:47 PM

Is KCAL-DT/43 down again? I'm not picking up anything on it right now. I will double check when I get home.

They were down for a bit.

_Daniel_

08-13-08, 12:34 AM

I recently bought the Radio Shack 15-1868 UHF/VHF antenna. I live on Mt. Washington (90065) and get excellent reception for all the DTV channels. I have a direct view of Mt. Wilson.

Falcon_77

08-13-08, 09:52 PM

At various sites, I've always had the problem of a diagonal pattern of lines on RF 9. How will this affect DTV reception when they move back to 9? The problem appears to be FM related as the FM trap on my 7777 at home seems to mitigate the problem.

Attached are a couple pics of the interference. As I see this almost everywhere I've tested it in OC, does anyone else have this problem or know of the source?

Is everyone checking their reception on 7, 9, 11 & 13 to be ready for February?

Thanks,

narkspud

08-14-08, 01:01 AM

VenturaTVViewer

08-14-08, 09:59 AM

Using these Radio Shack antennas with great results. In Line Signal Amplifier is plus 10db. I believe this combo would work well in the greater Los Angeles area. Am about 45 miles, and am receiving digital signals from Santa Barbara. The bowtie antenna is about $ 4, and the amp is about $15. Would be interested if anyone else tries this combination in the greater LA area.

Falcon_77

08-14-08, 03:50 PM

No such problems with analog 9 here in Tustin. It's from an antenna on top of our 2-story apartment building, with no FM trap.

It's analog 2, 4 and 5 that get trashed by interference on this system. Digital has been very good to me.

The screen-caps I took are from our new office in Tustin, but Irvine had the same problem (as well as my condo in Ladera Ranch, though less so there). Can you try rabbit ears to see if the interference is visible?

I may have to tap into the roof antenna at the office, but that won't be easy.

Falcon_77

08-15-08, 01:04 AM

I think I've figured out the problem. It seems be be the On-Air USB tuner itself that is causing the interference. I tested it against my TV and didn't see the same problem. I then split the two and noticed a large increase in noise and interference on the TV when the USB tuner was also operating.

However, I'm using a Fusion 5 USB tuner at the office. Perhaps it is something with the USB interface itself? Perhaps a shielded cable would help as the USB cables supplied with these tuners are very thin. Are there shielded USB to Mini-USB cables?

If anyone else can try 9 on a USB computer tuner, I would be interested to see if the same thing happens. The noise also goes up into UHF, but the pattern is different. Only 9 has the strong pattern.

blue_z

08-15-08, 03:53 AM

Perhaps a shielded cable would help as the USB cables supplied with these tuners are very thin. Are there shielded USB to Mini-USB cables?

Hi there

I would expect all USB 2.0 cables to be shielded. I have a 3/16" dia USB cable with a clear jacket, and the braid shield is visible. Of course, termination at the connector is always a possible failure.

The herringbone interference, from my experience, has been from my computers. Sometimes just having the computer running would affect the analog TV reception in another room.

Regards

Trip in VA

08-15-08, 09:09 AM

Yeah, I'll agree with that, I find that my computer can cause a bunch of interference to anything around it. My laptop doesn't do it, but my desktop does.

- Trip

Falcon_77

08-15-08, 09:26 PM

The herringbone interference, from my experience, has been from my computers. Sometimes just having the computer running would affect the analog TV reception in another room.

Well, here is what I did - the laptop was on throughout the tests:

This was looking at the TV reception on 9 with the antenna in the same room as both the TV and laptop.

1) Checked the reception w/o the On-Air plugged in - ok
2) Checked the reception with it plugged in - ok
3) Started up the On-Air GT program - bad
4) Closed down the On-Air GT program - bad
5) Unplugged the On-Air GT from the laptop - ok

The USB cable is less than 1/8" in diameter and no braids are visible.

If I have time, I will redo the tests with pics.

What frequency does USB run at?

It also could be the On-Air tuner itself, but I will need to buy a high quality cable to rule that out.

benway

08-15-08, 10:12 PM

has KTLA stopped broadcasting in 16:9 / HD?

2 1/2 men has been in 4:3 / SD for a few days, even the commercials are in SD,

scott202

08-16-08, 12:21 AM

KSCI has six full time sub-channels up there. 18.8 is a delayed rebroadcast of their 18.1 on weeknights. As of today, they have the 18.6 programming going from TopTV.

Are they really going to go for eight sub-channels?

Falcon_77

08-16-08, 01:37 AM

has KTLA stopped broadcasting in 16:9 / HD?

2 1/2 men has been in 4:3 / SD for a few days, even the commercials are in SD,

Looks ok right now. The news is in HD.

HarrisonS

08-16-08, 11:40 AM

28-4 is back up. It came back online yesterday.

benway

08-17-08, 10:57 AM

"live" news is in HD, but 2 1/2 men was always in ws hd too.

its actually being broadcast in WS HD but showing only 4/3 SD

Looks ok right now. The news is in HD.

benway

08-18-08, 10:03 PM

2 1/2 men is back in HD

also got an email from KCETabout 28.4

"Thank you for taking the time to express your concern about PBS World. On August 7, KCET made the difficult decision to suspend this 24/7 service on KCET's digital channel 28.4. The action was originally based on economics - specifically, the rising cost of PBS dues. We have since received an overwhelming response, which has resulted in a reversal of our decision. We are extremely pleased to inform you that PBS World will remain on 28.4 for the foreseeable future. We appreciate the efforts you made to make your thoughts known. "

Archonius

08-20-08, 02:15 AM

did kcal (channel 5.1) go down?! the channel just DISAPPEARED from my list completely! I still get th analog signal!

jeff2631

08-20-08, 03:16 AM

Thats KTLA-DT down right now.

narkspud

08-20-08, 09:54 AM

Their remapping got messed up last night. If they're still missing, do another channel scan, or manually add them.

joe221

08-20-08, 11:38 AM

5.1 is working OTA.
:)
Now if they could only keep the signal consistent:(!

benway

08-20-08, 02:49 PM

did kcal (channel 5.1) go down?! the channel just DISAPPEARED from my list completely! I still get th analog signal!

when that happens I can usually find it on channel 31 [the unmapped #]

Loaded4th

08-21-08, 12:53 AM

Falcon_77

08-21-08, 03:55 PM

I also received the message about the temporary suspension of 28.4 and I'm totally shocked that they would consider abandoning PBS World rather than V-ME.

Seems that such a decision is more political rather than rational or economic.

Well, KPBS in San Diego only has V-me as a sub-channel and no others.

As for KCET, it has been showing some Spanish programming on the main channel as well. Considering that OTA usage is higher among the Spanish speaking population, I wouldn't be surprised if V-me has more viewers than PBS World.

oxnardprof

08-21-08, 04:50 PM

narkspud

08-21-08, 05:13 PM

I am trying to decide if I can get acceptable OTA reception in Oxnard. I have read through the posts (searching for Oxnard), and I find my self still confused. It seems that there is a learning curve on digital reception.

My goal is to be able to receive PBS (28) OTA, plus consistent reception of other channels.

Right now, I have a rabbit ears - (i think amplified) antenna that can bring in channels OTA in an upstairs bedroom. Passing through a converter box, it cannot pick up PBS. However, sometimes I get Channel 50. (OC PBS?).

At peak reception (night time, good nights) I can receive 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, plus a number of other stations (18, 34, 50, 56, 63, a few others)

I would like to avoid paying to receive TV (Direct TV), but I would like to get better reception. SO, the question:

Would an indoor antenna suffice? Is the 'silver' antenna still available?

Or, should I go to an outdoor antenna, hopefully hooking it up the the wall outlets intended for cable TV?

I attached an analysis of my location generated by tvfool for wiser minds than mine.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

KCET is deep in the red, with a stronger low power on the same channel ... that don't look too promising.

I 'spect that whatever antenna you get, it's going to have to be awfully directional and have a heckuva lot of gain if you're going to have a prayer of pulling in KCET and the other LA's reliably. I'd say rooftop (with a rotator to get the guys in the other direction) is your only chance, and I wouldn't even count on that. Probably your best indicator is how well the analogs (7 and up) are coming in.

By the way, KCET's DTV is switching channels on the big day. Your plot there has them on 28, but their DTV is currently on 59.

holl_ands

08-21-08, 05:59 PM

I am trying to decide if I can get acceptable OTA reception in Oxnard. I have read through the posts (searching for Oxnard), and I find my self still confused. It seems that there is a learning curve on digital reception.

My goal is to be able to receive PBS (28) OTA, plus consistent reception of other channels.

Right now, I have a rabbit ears - (i think amplified) antenna that can bring in channels OTA in an upstairs bedroom. Passing through a converter box, it cannot pick up PBS. However, sometimes I get Channel 50. (OC PBS?).

At peak reception (night time, good nights) I can receive 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, plus a number of other stations (18, 34, 50, 56, 63, a few others)

I would like to avoid paying to receive TV (Direct TV), but I would like to get better reception. SO, the question:

Would an indoor antenna suffice? Is the 'silver' antenna still available?

Or, should I go to an outdoor antenna, hopefully hooking it up the the wall outlets intended for cable TV?

I attached an analysis of my location generated by tvfool for wiser minds than mine.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
You should use a high-gain antenna...preferably outdoors.
CBS and NBC are going to be a challenge...and KCET very iffy
(unless they increase their power).

You can get a CM-4228 from Fry's to see what you get in attic/closet/outdoors.
Post-Feb2009 you can reassess to see if you need to add an inexpensive VHF Yagi antenna.

Falcon_77

08-22-08, 10:56 AM

KCET's maximized Construction Permit for 155kW on 28 was granted on 8/19.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_det.pl?Application_id=1248742

Of course, this is still slightly less than their current ERP of 190kW on 59, but I wouldn't be surprised if 155 on 28 outperforms 190 on 59. KFTR, which appears to be at only 150kW on 29 has a great signal where I am.

Falcon_77

08-22-08, 11:08 AM

I 'spect that whatever antenna you get, it's going to have to be awfully directional and have a heckuva lot of gain if you're going to have a prayer of pulling in KCET and the other LA's reliably. I'd say rooftop (with a rotator to get the guys in the other direction) is your only chance, and I wouldn't even count on that. Probably your best indicator is how well the analogs (7 and up) are coming in.

While the TV Fool plot for my location is only slightly stronger (-87 to -101), it seems to put too much of a penalty on very slight diffraction (I could get LOS at ~70'). However, with around 500' being required at the above Oxnard location, it is going to be more challenging.

Outdoor class antennas are going to be needed, such as the Channel Master 4228 (UHF) and Winegard YA1713 (VHF 7-13). A pre-amp is probably going to be needed as well, but some care needs to be taken, especially if the antennas need to be turned to Santa Barbara as well. Back-side reception of the strong stations could be possible, however.

Falcon_77

08-23-08, 11:09 PM

narkspud

08-23-08, 11:24 PM

I have heard that KJLA will stop broadcasting on analog 57 as of 8/27. However, I checked 57 tonight to see if they would show any info about this, but the programming I saw was duplicated on 69. i.e., it was Almavision. Did KJLA already turn off their analog signal on 57 or are they just borrowing programming for the last few days?

The 57 you're seeing is K57KF (formerly K55KD), a low-power licensed to Van Nuys. Orange County gets analog KJLA on a translator, KSMV-LP Channel 33.

I suspect that translator is responsible for the vast majority of their viewership, which is probably why they're so keen to ditch their main analog ASAP.

Falcon_77

08-24-08, 10:08 AM

The 57 you're seeing is K57KF (formerly K55KD), a low-power licensed to Van Nuys. Orange County gets analog KJLA on a translator, KSMV-LP Channel 33.

I suspect that translator is responsible for the vast majority of their viewership, which is probably why they're so keen to ditch their main analog ASAP.

Ok. Thanks for the info. I checked and 33 is the same as KJLA (57-1).

It looks like the FCC (TV query) database hasn't caught up to K57KF yet, though I do see an application for 57 on K55KD with a pattern that puts more in OC's direction.

I was hoping to see a station go dark early... oh well. I'm guessing that this wasn't a recent change and I never noticed them leave 55 (due to MediaFLO I would guess). Does Almavision need 69 then? I can sometimes hear analog KSWB (San Diego) on 69, like last night, while retaining the KTAV-LP/Almavision picture.

Then there's 6, which is at such low power and under so much FM interference. As best as I can tell, they just have an image with their FM broadcast simulcast to TV (well it is the same frequency as re FM).

LATV

08-24-08, 10:20 AM

Falcon_77

08-24-08, 10:29 AM

The LPTV on channel 55 (K55KD) has a STA to operate on channel 57 so you will not see new call letters until they get a full license to operate. You will need to go to Ventura County to see KLJA shut down.

I thought I was looking at the booster for KJLA on 57 on Mt. Wilson. However, I see now that it still shows as an application, so it was probably never constructed. I don't think a drive to Ventura County is going to happen, especially on a weekday/night (this Wednesday). Perhaps someone local can document the last analog broadcast of KJLA.

narkspud

08-24-08, 04:37 PM

The LPTV on channel 55 (K55KD) has a STA to operate on channel 57 so you will not see new call letters until they get a full license to operate.

They're ID'ing as K57KF, as of a few weeks ago. Why the FCC doesn't have the change, I don't know, but a lot of other sites do.

LATV

08-24-08, 05:46 PM

Since it is a STA they never get in the FCC database, this is one way that people sneak moves and changes they do not want others to see.
Since the STA can still be filed for on paper it is hard to find and the FCC will just grant the STA by verbal or other methods as well as not putting them in the CDBS (on line filings database).

Rick_R

08-25-08, 01:42 PM

Chanel 18-6 is now up and running. It is apparently a Cantonese channel. As my Wife is from Hong Kong she really likes it. Her only comment was how come all the other channel's are in HD but this channels picture is so crumby?

Since only the TV in the Family room has digital reception and the TV in her office only has satellite. I told her I would get a converter box for the TV in her office.

Rick R

benway

08-25-08, 09:52 PM

ABC world news is in 16/9 HD tonight

they are running "tickertape" type info on the LHS, when the picture is 4/3 [however its slightly cropped!]

the audio is also messed up-- they havent flagged it correctly-- so I have no center channel on 5.1

I dont think they are ever going to get this stuff right until its all digital in 2009 and someones actually paying attention.

narkspud

08-26-08, 10:37 AM

Chanel 18-6 is now up and running. It is apparently a Cantonese channel. As my Wife is from Hong Kong she really likes it. Her only comment was how come all the other channel's are in HD but this channels picture is so crumby?

They seem to be getting the same bit allocation as 18-3 18-5 and 18-7, so it appears it's either Top-TV's source material itself, or the way they're getting their programming to 18's facility.

By the way, none of 18's streams are in HD.

WackyPacks

08-26-08, 12:25 PM

Funny thing is TOPTV is a small network in Taiwan. However 18.6's few programs seem to be from ATV in Hong Kong, which apparently is a much less popular channel than TVB. So far the 18.6 seems to be repeating the same few shows multiple times throughout the day. My guess is that people who watch that channel are hoping that a couple of drama series from ATV airs here. So far it has only been kids, talk, sight-seeing, and Olympic-related programs.

Rick_R

08-26-08, 01:15 PM

By the way, none of 18's streams are in HD.

My wife's problem is after watching the Olympics or something on KABC or KCBS in HD, the 18-6 picture is really bad. It is not even good SD.

Rick R

Falcon_77

08-27-08, 11:21 AM

Perhaps someone local can document the last analog broadcast of KJLA.

As KJLA was scheduled to turn off their analog signal today, is anyone tracking whether they actually do so? Many of us don't have access to analog KJLA 57, so we need some help from Ventura County.

narkspud

08-27-08, 11:43 AM

How does K57KF (or whatever they are) look? I'd think their signal would be much cleaner if KJLA has really gone away.

I didn't think to check on that this morning, and reception on the TVs here at work doesn't tell me squat.

KSMV-LP is, of course, still very much on the air.

Falcon_77

08-27-08, 03:13 PM

How does K57KF (or whatever they are) look? I'd think their signal would be much cleaner if KJLA has really gone away.

I will check when I get home, but K57KF has never looked very good and has had obvious interference patterns. I will have to see if those are cleared up, but it's still probably going to be weak.

At work, the signal is too poor to tell.

arbie

08-27-08, 04:45 PM

I will check when I get home, but K57KF has never looked very good and has had obvious interference patterns. I will have to see if those are cleared up, but it's still probably going to be weak.

At work, the signal is too poor to tell.

Here's the K57KF-LP station ID at 1:00 pm 8/27/08.

What I'd like to know is: what's with the upside down PYCCKAR 08 at the top of the frame?

BTW, my KTAV-LP (same transmitter site with the same ALMA VISION HISPANIC NETWORK, INC programming on channel 69) is too snowy to see the upside down text.

VenturaTVViewer

08-28-08, 02:36 PM

Thinking about getting serious about the change to digital. Having trouble with KABC 7 LA. No signal today. Maybe dropping analog power? Channel 23 KIMG was a music channel. Just changed to RTN. With 3.2 My RTN digital will make a digital and analog RTN. Getting 6 analog think it's San Diego. Something seems to be going on amongst the networks. What's going on?

narkspud

08-28-08, 06:15 PM

Falcon_77

08-28-08, 08:42 PM

I didn't see any change to K57KF last night. The same interference was there, but I suppose it could be the adjacents and not KJLA.

Hopefully, we can find out soon if KJLA is off. Don't make me drive to Ventura County this weekend. ;)

VenturaTVViewer

08-29-08, 08:42 AM

I have never received KJLA 57. Nothing on analog. Am behind a 500 foot hill. Get some analog stations due to their signal strength. So, unfortunately cannot answer the question about what happened to KJLA. The mystery continues.

VenturaTVViewer

08-29-08, 09:24 AM

Per Wikipedia it went digital KJLA-DT 49, and should be on Channel 33 as KJLA-LP a repeater.

What seems to be needed for this Los Angeles thread is a spreadsheet showing what's on analog, what's on digital, and when what's on analog is transitioning to digital when. What should also be interesting would be what area is receiving what, using what. A lot of what's.

Trip in VA

08-29-08, 12:23 PM

Falcon_77 has a spreadsheet (see his signature) which contains that data for the whole US, and I have much of it available on my website.

- Trip

Falcon_77

08-29-08, 09:08 PM

Falcon_77 has a spreadsheet (see his signature) which contains that data for the whole US, and I have much of it available on my website.

- Trip

I'm not tracking LP stations on it, but since I can get the KJLA repeater ok, that's probably another reason they want to turn off the main signal.

Perhaps someone in Simi Valley can find out... Rick_R, could you get KJLA/57?

VenturaTVViewer

08-30-08, 03:33 PM

Per TVfool.com KJLA is transmitting from Santa Paula. Interesting choice of location. Worth looking at. Go to tvfool do an online coverage map search.

HarrisonS

08-30-08, 04:32 PM

Per TVfool.com KJLA is transmitting from Santa Paula. Interesting choice of location. Worth looking at. Go to tvfool do an online coverage map search.

It is relaying several stations: 57.1 carries KJLA proper; 57.2 is identified as KXLA; 57.3 as KVMD and 57.4 is identified simply as "LATV". It is strong here in Granada Hills.

phildaant

08-31-08, 03:12 PM

did kcal (channel 5.1) go down?! the channel just DISAPPEARED from my list completely! I still get th analog signal!Isn't that 9.1? KTLA is 5.1.

nathan118

09-01-08, 02:59 AM

phildaant

09-01-08, 03:18 AM

Does anyone know what the heck NBC is doing with their primetime airings? It appears they're trying to use pulldown flags, but I'm not sure exactly.

I noticed the problem back in May. I run vista media center and I started to have problems deinterlacing shows like The Office. I ran a clip through mpeg2repair and got the following:

File Size Processed: 113.94 MB, Play Time: 00h:01m:13s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps (24.49 fps Telecine), 65.00 Mbps (12.17 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 60.65 KB/Frame, 0.24 Bits/Pixel.

Tonight I'm trying to watch National Treasure and I'm getting deinterlacing artificats all over the place. Here's what mpeg2repair gave me on that show:

File Size Processed: 552.07 MB, Play Time: 00h:05m:47s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps (26.69 fps Telecine), 65.00 Mbps (12.55 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 57.40 KB/Frame, 0.23 Bits/Pixel.

What is this telecine crap, and why is it different? At first I thought I was having driver issues with my Radeon 2600 XT, but now I'm thinking it might be the local NBC and some issue with pulldown flags. On some other Office recordings it would actually say 23.976 fps telecine, but I don't know what the heck it's showing on the above two.

Any ideas?I had the same problem during the Olympics and I am NOT using Media Center and ATI video card. I am using a NVIDIA GeForce 7950 GT KO and DVB Viewer. I thougfht it was my decoders, codecs, or something else. I checked old recordings and other channels that look fine to me.

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/1931/snapshot20080810134142ie2.jpg for a screen capture from an Olympics 2008 opening ceremony commercial break.

MediaInfo says about the MPEG-2 file:
General
Complete name : Open Olympic Cermony 2008.mpg
Format : MPEG-PS
File size : 26.9 GiB
Duration : 4h 39mn
Overall bit rate : 13.8 Mbps

Video
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@High
Format settings, Matrix : Standard
Duration : 4h 39mn
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 12.0 Mbps
Nominal bit rate : 65.0 Mbps
Width : 1920 pixels
Height : 1080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16/9
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Interlaced
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 1.046

Audio #1
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Format profile : Dolby Digital
Duration : 640ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 384 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Video delay : 4h 39mn

Audio #2
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 384 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Video delay : -363ms

--

I was channel surfing yesterday and saw a volleyball game (in HD) with deinterlaced on KNBC4 again. Ugh! I watched the closing ceremony last week at work on a HP 42" HDTV and had no problems (believe it used its internal tuner).

What's going on?

narkspud

09-01-08, 09:54 AM

Haven't seen any such issues, but I'm watching on a 1080i CRT.

Falcon_77

09-01-08, 10:21 AM

Haven't seen any such issues, but I'm watching on a 1080i CRT.

I have seen plenty of macro-blocking artifacts, but not feathering problems like the above. National Treasure looked good last night from here on both TV's and with my On-Air GT.

biuniu

09-03-08, 03:47 PM

Falcon_77

09-03-08, 03:59 PM

Anybody out there that lives close to the cross streets of Jeffrey and Trabuco in Irvine able to get San Diego OTA stations? I tried using antennaweb but it only gives me LA stations when I enter in my address.

I don't see much hope for that location as respects San Diego. Try running a TVFool.com plot for your location, but I have attached the plot for the cross-streets. Another 10-15dB of signal and it might be possible.

narkspud

09-03-08, 05:56 PM

Falcon_77

09-03-08, 09:05 PM

I've never gotten a digital signal from San Diego. Not surprising, since most of their DTVs share channels with LA analogs.

I've received analog 8, 10, 12 and 15 when conditions were right. 10 is the easiest. Now and then KSWB 69's sound will replace KTAV-LP's sound.

As for digital, I was close on KSWB 19 once and was able to get hints of KFMB 55, before they moved to 7. That's about it, but my path to San Diego, especially Mt. Miguel is very poor. It seems to me that 15 reflects off of Saddleback Mtn. when I can get it as it was strongest when I was trying to get KVCR.

KUSI and KSCI are 123 miles apart, both to be on 18. The FCC minimum range is 122 miles for UHF stations on the same channel. Still, with KSCI on Mt. Wilson, it can range to parts of North County San Diego.

What are the FCC's plans for the Land Mobile allocations? Several local channels are not available due to Land Mobile. (14,15,16,17,19,20,21) Hopefully, they will eventually migrate to the national safety allocations as part of the auctioned 700MHz band.

mkpl

09-03-08, 11:45 PM

I've seen some posts from a couple years back in this forum where other Orange County people have been able to receive San Diego OTA stations.

Anybody out there that lives close to the cross streets of Jeffrey and Trabuco in Irvine able to get San Diego OTA stations? I tried using antennaweb but it only gives me LA stations when I enter in my address.

TIA :)

www.TVfool.com also shows San Diego stations.

I'm near the eastern boundary of Mission Viejo, and can frequently pick up 10-1, and sometimes 15-1 and 69-1, but on rare occasions I have picked up 51-1 and 6-1 (I think 40-1, which shares the channel 23 frequency, may have been on reduced power at the time). I have never been able to pick up 8-1 or 39-1, even though TV Fool shows more power on these than 15-1 or 6-1.

38-1 (KPMR, KTSB is on 38-2) sometimes comes in from Santa Barbara. I use an attic mounted CM 4228 with a CM 7777 preamp, aimed towards Mount Wilson (LA is 328 degrees, SD is 149/159 degrees).

VenturaTVViewer

09-04-08, 09:39 AM

narkspud

09-04-08, 09:45 AM

Very very very directional antenna that can be rotated.

Finnish_Fox

09-04-08, 01:14 PM

wwong

09-04-08, 02:19 PM

TVfool is a good resource to find out the signal situation in your area. According to them, reception should be easy. You have to point your antenna to NNE or NE direction. It seems like you could get reasonable reception with a indoor antenna placing close to the window.

You may have to spend some time to find a sweet spot in your apartment. From the second link below, you could work down the antenna list to find a right antenna for your situation. I believe you should get good reception from any of the first ten on that list.

Good luck and welcome to the OTA HDTV world!

Further reading:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779&page=31

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=118085&d=1219961129

HarrisonS

09-04-08, 02:22 PM

Hi all... I am very new to HDTV and have no prior knowledge about OTA antennas.

I am trying to determine which HDTV antenna option is best for me... and if we could figure out a particular model, that'd be great! I am not sure if I am looking for indoor or outdoor, the size of the antenna, etc.

My situation:

- I live in Hawthorne, CA (90250)... a suburb of Los Angeles. We have a lot of low-lying buildings (2-4 stories) but that's about it.

- I live on the 2nd floor of a 2-story apartment building.

- I have an EAST facing covered balcony (also where my DirecTV dish sits). No real options for due north, south or west.

I am more than happy to provide any additional information that will help determine what my best options are.

Thanks!

For best reception in your situation, I would recommend using an outdoor antenna mounted on your balcony and facing NE toward Mt. Wilson, which should lie at about 45° azimuth. I used to work for The Aerospace Corporation in El Segundo not far from you, for a good many years, and so I am somewhat familiar with your area.

For compactness, you can use an antenna that only covers UHF and high-band VHF, like the CM 4228. You won't need the low-band VHF after next February 17.

Finnish_Fox

09-04-08, 03:01 PM

For best reception in your situation, I would recommend using an outdoor antenna mounted on your balcony and facing NE toward Mt. Wilson, which should lie at about 45° azimuth. I used to work for The Aerospace Corporation in El Segundo not far from you, for a good many years, and so I am somewhat familiar with your area.

For compactness, you can use an antenna that only covers UHF and high-band VHF, like the CM 4228. You won't need the low-band VHF after next February 17.

Thank you for the information.

Is there perhaps a very good indoor or an outdoor antenna with a smaller profile?

The manager could have an issue with mounting something that large.

narkspud

09-04-08, 03:45 PM

If it's on your balcony (not a shared area) and you need it for good TV reception, then the manager can't do anything about it. Federal regulations.

Finnish_Fox

09-04-08, 04:23 PM

If it's on your balcony (not a shared area) and you need it for good TV reception, then the manager can't do anything about it. Federal regulations.

Its odd... its a shared balcony between two units, though its pretty obvious which part belongs to which unit.

The other issue is that it is covered, so it may require mounting on the trim/roof.

holl_ands

09-05-08, 12:26 AM

Your signal levels are fairly strong...CM-4228 is probably overkill....
BUT...effect of metal structures in your building and surrounding buildings are difficult to predict...

You can try 2-Bay and/or 4-Bay antennas for now, and see if anything stronger is needed in Feb...

Have you even tried an indoor antenna...preferably ampified???
Here's a comparison for one person's situation:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779

holl_ands

09-05-08, 01:02 AM

How can one overcome co-channel interference. If someone has overcome it for their situation, or if someone understands what it is, and how to solve the problem. Can use own situation. Or other websites that can help. Interested in success stories, or attempts for success. This is a challenging area for OTA. Can apply to analog, then how it applies to digital for the transition.
Co-channel interference (interference on SAME channel) can be reduced
by using an antenna with a narrow azimuthal pattern...
and especially a deep NULL that can be pointed towards undesired station).

Stagger Stacking and Horizontally Stacking Dual Antenna systems are
sometimes used to point a very deep null towards the undesired direction.
Google Search "stagger stacking antenna" and "stacked antenna"....

Stagger Stacking:
http://www.anarc.org/wtfda/stagger.pdf
http://www.matchmaster.com.au/_literature_32103/Catalogue_-_Commercial_Section [See Reference Section.]
http://www.simplicitytool.com/PDFs/Old%20Sitco/VHF_end_mount_stagger_stack.pdf

Horizontal Stacking:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html#TAT
http://www.ifwtech.co.uk/g3sek/stacking/stacking2.htm
http://www.grantronics.com.au/docs/StkYagis.pdf
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/stackluge.html
[The first "Real Kludge"....]

RudyG

09-05-08, 04:15 AM

I've received analog 8, 10, 12 and 15 when conditions were right. 10 is the easiest. Now and then KSWB 69's sound will replace KTAV-LP's sound.
......
Interesting. From time to time, when conditions are right I pick up 69 analog and digital (69.1) here is West LA, with my Silver Sensor. It appears to be the CW network.

Rudy

Trip in VA

09-05-08, 08:28 AM

69-1, KSWB, switched from CW to Fox on August 1.

- Trip

csrini1

09-05-08, 04:37 PM

HEY, VENTURA PERSON!

KABC's digital was on the air at lunchtime today, no idea about the signal strength, though. And as for the other signals you mentioned, someone else will have to tell you what's up with them, cause I sure don't know.

However, YOU can answer the question that has been plaguing us for the last 16 posts or so.

Is KJLA's analog channel 57 off the air?

We breathlessly await your response.

i used to kabc, 7.1,7.2,7.3 , but suddenly cant get any of these.
anyone knows what happenned. i turned on the old crt tv, and i see abc there!!
but not on the digital one!!
same issue with fox. channel 11.

narkspud

09-06-08, 12:45 AM

i used to kabc, 7.1,7.2,7.3 , but suddenly cant get any of these.
anyone knows what happenned. i turned on the old crt tv, and i see abc there!!
but not on the digital one!!
same issue with fox. channel 11.

They're still on the air. Did a bird steal part of your rooftop antenna?

csrini1

09-06-08, 10:52 AM

They're still on the air. Did a bird steal part of your rooftop antenna?

I tried moving the antenna around, but still no luck!!

Falcon_77

09-06-08, 11:23 AM

I tried moving the antenna around, but still no luck!!

They look ok to me. What antenna are you using?

HarrisonS

09-06-08, 01:01 PM

I tried moving the antenna around, but still no luck!!

Very strange! KABC is very stong here, as usual. I did notice about a week ago, however, that their signal strength was unusually low in the late afternoon for a couple of days. Maybe they were making adjustments to their transmitter.

phildaant

09-06-08, 01:04 PM

Hi!

Is it me or is KLCS' digital feed weak OTA? I am only getting mid 30% to 40%. :( All other stations seem good (very high). According to antennaweb and tvfool Web sites, the transmitter isn't far (18 miles) and on Mt. Wilson like the other transmitters (323-324 degrees on compass). I tried both rabbit ears and a DB2 bowtie antenna. Channel 58 analog is decent (not great).

Thank you in advance. :)

narkspud

09-06-08, 01:36 PM

KLCS looks normal here in Tustin.

HarrisonS

09-06-08, 02:05 PM

KLCS is coming in with a solid signal in Granada Hills also.

csrini1

09-07-08, 11:20 AM

Very strange! KABC is very stong here, as usual. I did notice about a week ago, however, that their signal strength was unusually low in the late afternoon for a couple of days. Maybe they were making adjustments to their transmitter.

I am in zipcode 91006 and have been using this antenna from 18months now-Philips PHDTV3 Indoor Amplified UHF/VHF/FM/HDTV Antenna

The thing is i was getting ABC AND FOX before, the whole of last year,and till early August this year.

HarrisonS

09-07-08, 11:49 AM

I am in zipcode 91006 and have been using this antenna from 18months now-Philips PHDTV3 Indoor Amplified UHF/VHF/FM/HDTV Antenna

The thing is i was getting ABC AND FOX before, the whole of last year,and till early August this year.

I wonder if they moved their antennas. You may be just a little too close to the San Gabriel Mountains to get a good enough line of sight path to their present antennas. The good news is (if this is true), that if you can get good strong analog reception on channels 7 and 11 now, you will probably be OK after the chaneover in February. This is because both stations will be moving to their analog frequencies and probably be using those antennas.

Rick_R

09-09-08, 05:08 PM

phildaant

09-09-08, 05:15 PM

A few weeks ago I observed that KTLA was not broadcasting HD. I couldn't figure out why. Yesterday I think it was explained.

A was watching Two and a Half Men when suddenly the picture and sound disappeared. About 2-4 minutes later the picture and sound came back but it was SD. So I am guessing their HD feed crapped out so they substituted the SD feed.

So what are they going to do after 2/17/09? Will they have a backup HD feed or will they have a backup feed that is SD? Or will they just stop broadcasting if the HD feed has problems?KTLA did this too over a year or two ago when I wanted to watch a new Smallville episode. I remember e-mailing and getting a response. I recalled they had problems with their feeds or something so they had to use SD. :(

Good question on the deadline part. I am upset that they still have this problem.

danki6x

09-09-08, 05:26 PM

A few weeks ago I observed that KTLA was not broadcasting HD. I couldn't figure out why. Yesterday I think it was explained.

A was watching Two and a Half Men when suddenly the picture and sound disappeared. About 2-4 minutes later the picture and sound came back but it was SD. So I am guessing their HD feed crapped out so they substituted the SD feed.

So what are they going to do after 2/17/09? Will they have a backup HD feed or will they have a backup feed that is SD? Or will they just stop broadcasting if the HD feed has problems?

Rick R
They would move their digital onto channel 9 (the long time working channel) and replace the analog there and not use the temporary UHF frequency/antenna they are using now for digital. Remember channels 7-13 can put the digital on the current analog channel. Channels 2-6 have to vacate. /Dan

edit: Mixed up my KCAL/KTLA. KCAL-9 would move back to 9 with digital, KTLA-5 would vacate ch. 5

mikemikeb

09-10-08, 12:40 AM

Remember channels 7-13 can put the digital on the current analog channel. Channels 2-6 have to vacate.Not quite. There is no federal auctioning or re-distribution of low-VHF that would preclude DTV operation there. It's just a really bad idea to try it unless you're in the middle of nowhere and don't have some electronic devices, vacuum cleaners, or compact fluorescent bulbs running where you're trying to pick the signal up (then MAYBE there won't be oodles of complaints).

Some stations will move their digital frequencies to their current analog frequencies because of their crowded bandwidth in the area, like WMC 5 in Memphis, and WPVI 6 in Philly. I feel sorry for their viewers.