Heh, tell me about it. What a pain. I have to have a large VHF-Low antenna just for one lousy channel. :(

And the bandwidth isnt all that crowded in this area as far as I can tell. Theres plenty of room on VHF-Hi and UHF. I think theyre just trying to be obstinate, heh.

It's ABC's policy that ABC O&O stations go back to their analog channels. WPVI just happens to be the only such station in Low-VHF for analog. However, I don't expect the policy to remain in effect after they have been broadcasting on 6 for a couple weeks in Philly. Unlike analog Low-VHF, which tolerates noise fairly well for sound (being FM), DTV is all AM. The visual part of analog is AM, but the mind does a pretty good job of filtering brief visual noise. That is not a luxury DTV has, with full drop-outs of sight and sound being the result of the same noise.

Even a simple light switch can easily ruin Low-VHF DTV reception. Also, there aren't any lightning storms in Philly are there? :eek:

I'm actually concerned that the same problems will be had on 7-13 as well, but they should not be nearly as severe as 2-6, and 7-13 don't require boats for antennas. Good luck using rabbit ears in areas that have 2-6.

Clearing UHF Land Mobile allocations will add room, if that ever happens....

I've been closely following the advance turn off of analog TV in Wilmington, NC this week. The results are slowly coming in. Very interesting!!

If you have knowledge of outdoor antenna installations and how best to hook up someone's DTV converter box or HD set, I suspect one could be very busy in 2009!

Read more about the results so far on my blog at http://www.DTVRULES.com Click "Blog" at the top.

Found at the AVS Cable & Digital Cable (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=35) forum, topic "Why am I missing some channels" (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1064919). Is it common for LA-area TWC Internet-only users to receive "free" cable TV via Clear QAM without any cable TV subscription?

KFLA-DT Channel 8

My sister can pick up this station from her home in Irvine, although it is a weak signal. Once 7 & 9 move back to VHF, will she likely have problems viewing channel 8 using her current antenna? I'm thinking that 7 & 9 are so strong that it will interfere with 8?

KFLA-DT Channel 8

My sister can pick up this station from her home in Irvine, although it is a weak signal. Once 7 & 9 move back to VHF, will she likely have problems viewing channel 8 using her current antenna? I'm thinking that 7 & 9 are so strong that it will interfere with 8?

I think the running theory at the moment is that such reception will get easier. The signals of 7 and 9 are currently outputting 316 kW (peak) power, but on digital, they'll be outputting 25 kW (average) power, so there'll actually be less power on either side to trash it.

But it's a sort of wait-and-see kind of thing at this point.

- Trip

KFLA is hit-and-miss in the OC anyway. I'm in Tustin, and interference from San Diego, plus the big fat null that KFLA has pointed straight at me, makes KFLA an impossible catch except in the dead of winter.

Definitely wait-and-see.

Hey guys, I've got three tv's, one an HD with a built in tuner and two older analog sets but with converter boxes. All three have their own antennas, but they vary on which channels they pick up. I live in the 90018 zip code and all three sets have the antennas pointed in the general direction that antennaweb recommends. However, I'm thinking of just mounting an outdoor antenna and splitting the line to all three tv's. Is this feasible or would each tv need their own antenna?

I think the running theory at the moment is that such reception will get easier. The signals of 7 and 9 are currently outputting 316 kW (peak) power, but on digital, they'll be outputting 25 kW (average) power, so there'll actually be less power on either side to trash it.

But it's a sort of wait-and-see kind of thing at this point.

- Trip

I have not been able to get KFLA-LD (even with a YA-1713 - 13dB was about the best I've seen) and I don't expect that to change next year. If 7 and 9 get 25kW, I would expect the chances to receive KFLA will be even lower. Remember that DTV utilizes much more of the channel than analog. This is another reason I think that DTV on 6 is going to be a major problem where used (such as in Philadelphia). Non-Commercial FM radio, just above channel 6, has been petitioning the FCC to remove 6 for increased side-splatter from DTV stations.

Also, we have channel 8 from San Diego which can be received in many parts of Orange County and as noted above, KFLA has a significant null in our direction.

live in the 90018 zip code and all three sets have the antennas pointed in the general direction that antennaweb recommends. However, I'm thinking of just mounting an outdoor antenna and splitting the line to all three tv's. Is this feasible or would each tv need their own antenna?

This would be a much more reliable setup than relying on set-tops on each TV. Remember that CRT's put out quite a bit of noise on their own and people walking around in the room will also affect the signals. You may want to try the antenna in the attic if it doesn't have to look through a metal siding of some kind (including stucco). It works well for me at 51 miles.

I have heard reports of stations across the country (which are moving back to their analog channel and antenna), testing DTV operations on the analog channel in early morning hours. However, these tests seem to be for the benefit of testing cable and satellite feeds and are not being widely announced.

I will e-mail the 4 local stations which will return to upper VHF next year (7, 9, 11 & 13) to see if they will be doing this, but if anyone else finds out, let us know, so we can test reception in advance of next year.

I will e-mail the 4 local stations which will return to upper VHF next year (7, 9, 11 & 13) to see if they will be doing this, but if anyone else finds out, let us know, so we can test reception in advance of next year.

Only KCAL 9 responded to my inquiry and they could not confirm if such a test will be performed. No response from any of the others.

I was at the USC game yesterday and as usual, there were plenty of TV's to be found in the tailgating areas. About half of the TV's were hooked up to satellite dishes. The other half were using rabbit ear/loop combos, but I only noticed a few of those that were receiving ATSC broadcasts. There will quite a few old TV's watching analog broadcasts and I didn't see a single CECB in use. The only TV's getting digital broadcasts were newer.

Hopefully, tailgaters will eventually realize that their old TV's won't cut it w/o a converter box, but it might not be until next August/September.

Some newer TV's were being used in analog mode when they very likely had ATSC tuners. I guess it's too much work to do a channel scan? In general, the act of scanning for channels will be new to most people. At least, in the LA area, we should not need to do multiple scans (for multiple directions).

I was at the USC game yesterday and as usual, there were plenty of TV's to be found in the tailgating areas. About half of the TV's were hooked up to satellite dishes. The other half were using rabbit ear/loop combos, but I only noticed a few of those that were receiving ATSC broadcasts. There will quite a few old TV's watching analog broadcasts and I didn't see a single CECB in use. The only TV's getting digital broadcasts were newer.

Hopefully, tailgaters will eventually realize that their old TV's won't cut it w/o a converter box, but it might not be until next August/September.Perhaps you should start a campaign warning them of this now. They don't need to get a coupon, either; they could go on eBay and search for terms like, "Digital Stream", "Zenith DTT900", "Zenith DTT901", "Insignia NS-DXA1", and perhaps "Philco TB100HH9". Then, they could see a bunch of high-quality converter boxes up for bids, all for less than the cost of a CECB after tax at a store (even after the cost of shipping is applied), and receivable in less time than it would take to get the coupon in the mail.

(Perhaps Craigslist might sell CECBs, too, but from when I quickly checked the electronics area of the DC section, I didn't see any in the first 200 items listed. You may have better luck at another time or in another section.)

There are some organizations like Tailgating.com that travel around the country. If you do a tailgating internet search they pullup. If one of these groups, or a consortium of the manufacturers i.e. National Association of Broadcasters, Consumers Electronics Association, etc. were to have a group that travelled to these types of events it would be an opportunity for people to learn about the benefits of ota television.

I am truly stunned that nobody else has commented about the terrible picture quality on KABC-DT on primetime for the last few WEEKS.I have been posting in the local TWC thread about this several times but no one cares or comments at all.Because i have poor OTA reception i normally receive all channels via cable wich makes the situation worse because TWC in LA has decided to compress all HD channels recently.


However KABC-DT is one of the OTA stations that comes in strong where i live so i checked it tonight during the 20/20 special on the Royals of Britain.The PQ is so soft that it makes my SD XVID files look sharp,it is way softer than dvd quality and nowhere close to HD quality.Batman Begins the other night looked like an internet stream.Of course the definitive evidence was a couple of weeks ago when there was a Cancer special simulcast on KCBS-DT,KNBC-DT & KABC-DT in HD where it looked fine on CBS & NBC but below SD quality on ABC.Mind you,this was a SIMULCAST with exactly the same content on all 3 networks.


This problem only seems to affect the network in primetime because the local KABC news is always in high quality.Is everyone else in these threads not concerned or suffer from poor eyesight?

I am truly stunned that nobody else has commented about the terrible picture quality on KABC-DT on primetime for the last few WEEKS.I have been posting in the local TWC thread about this several times but no one cares or comments at all.Because i have poor OTA reception i normally receive all channels via cable wich makes the situation worse because TWC in LA has decided to compress all HD channels recently.


However KABC-DT is one of the OTA stations that comes in strong where i live so i checked it tonight during the 20/20 special on the Royals of Britain.The PQ is so soft that it makes my SD XVID files look sharp,it is way softer than dvd quality and nowhere close to HD quality.Batman Begins the other night looked like an internet stream.Of course the definitive evidence was a couple of weeks ago when there was a Cancer special simulcast on KCBS-DT,KNBC-DT & KABC-DT in HD where it looked fine on CBS & NBC but below SD quality on ABC.Mind you,this was a SIMULCAST with exactly the same content on all 3 networks.


This problem only seems to affect the network in primetime because the local KABC news is always in high quality.Is everyone else in these threads not concerned or suffer from poor eyesight?

Actually, I almost never watch any network prime time programs on KABC, and so I was not even aware of this problem. Occasionally I do watch local news on KABC, but that is about it. The local news broadcasts have always looked fine, although, come to think of it, I have not watched any in the last several days on KABC. I also watch very little network TV on KCBS and KNBC, for that matter.

Perhaps KABC is having problems with their network feed, or even the network itself is having difficulties. I will take a look to see if I can see anything like what you described.

Yes, that is always a problem for all major networks. Not only news, but all programs. Even ABC7 (7.1) suppose to be HD channel, not all programs are broadcast at HD, a lot of them is still in SD.

Eyewitness news at 6:00pm to 7:00pm, only the first half hour (from local ABC) is in HD, as soon as it hit 6:30pm for "World News by Charles Gibson," it switches to SD with narrow screen.

It is always a mystery to me that why National News for the whole U.S. could not get more budget to be produced in HD. SoCal seems to be a very well off area, to have the news in HD; many other cities, including the National News Office are still using SD.

It will be the ABC Corp or Disney to inform us the time table for all true HD broadcasting in their HD channel (7.1).

Actually, all major networks should only broadcast HD contents in their own designated HD channels. It is better for us who spend money on HDTVs, tune to HD channels of major networks, and be able to enjoy HD programs. Of course, quality HD programs mean better picture and ..........

Um, all three national newscasts are in HD now.

If KABC is showing it in SD, that's their fault, not the network.

- Trip

Um, all three national newscasts are in HD now.

If KABC is showing it in SD, that's their fault, not the network.

- Trip


Very interesting! This seems to confirm the speculation that poor picture quality on network shows over KABC are probably due to ABC network feed problems here in LA.

Yes, that is always a problem for all major networks. Not only news, but all programs. Even ABC7 (7.1) suppose to be HD channel, not all programs are broadcast at HD, a lot of them is still in SD.

Eyewitness news at 6:00pm to 7:00pm, only the first half hour (from local ABC) is in HD, as soon as it hit 6:30pm for "World News by Charles Gibson," it switches to SD with narrow screen.

It is always a mystery to me that why National News for the whole U.S. could not get more budget to be produced in HD. SoCal seems to be a very well off area, to have the news in HD; many other cities, including the National News Office are still using SD.

It will be the ABC Corp or Disney to inform us the time table for all true HD broadcasting in their HD channel (7.1).

Actually, all major networks should only broadcast HD contents in their own designated HD channels. It is better for us who spend money on HDTVs, tune to HD channels of major networks, and be able to enjoy HD programs. Of course, quality HD programs mean better picture and ..........


Yes I am certainly with you on this! Broadcasters seem to just love that narrow screen, and the fuzzier the picture, the better! Even KCET 28.1, which calls itself "KCET-HD" shows many, or most HD PBS programs in a shrunken 16:9 frame, which is no HD at all. And the rest of the time they show mostly 4:3 SD material and waste bandwidth. The result is that KCET-HD shows almost no HD at all!

I just hope that, after the changeover in February, that broadcasters, both local and network, will finally begin to take HD seriously!

Um, all three national newscasts are in HD now.

If KABC is showing it in SD, that's their fault, not the network.

- Trip

Assumes facts not in evidence.

I can't speak for CBS, FOX and PBS, but with ABC and NBC there's not one single "network feed," but several, with their own regional schedules, commercial breaks and promos. Each station's network receiver is controlled by the network, so if it switches to a SD feed, there's not much the local station can do about it. It's not unusual for it to switch several times during a show. It's also not unusual for the feeds to be slightly out of sync, which explains the clipped commercials you may have noticed on network programs.

Having seen several network news shows on KABC (including ABC News) switch back and forth from SD to HD in the middle of a program, I'm pretty sure it's that the network doesn't have enough HD feeds to go around, and is switching to a SD version to run network commercials that are meant strictly for Southern California.

Also keep in mind that when they're on location, they're stuck with the facilities of their local affiliate. So, for instance, when Charlie Gibson was in Alaska, it was a SD widescreen production except for the portions originating back at the network.

I, too, rarely watch entertainment programs on ABC, so I can't vouch for what's going on there. I will agree that some of ABC's SD looks like absolute hell, and has for at least 10 years. That's not the locals' fault either.

I was under the impression there were feeds for each (some of them) time zone and that's it. And that all were available in HD. Like I've heard ABC may not have a Mountain time zone HD feed.

I also was not aware that ABC has control of whether or not the local station receives HD. That sounds almost like Fox's splicer, have they moved in that direction with the technology?

- Trip

I was under the impression there were feeds for each (some of them) time zone and that's it. And that all were available in HD. Like I've heard ABC may not have a Mountain time zone HD feed.

I also was not aware that ABC has control of whether or not the local station receives HD. That sounds almost like Fox's splicer, have they moved in that direction with the technology?

- Trip

I have no idea how many feeds there are for ABC now - I haven't worked Master Control in 10 years, and we really had no way of knowing how many simultaneous feeds there were then either, since we had no control over the network receivers. It was quite a few, though - through the scrambling, it appeared to be at least half the transponders on that particular satellite IIRC - and as I mentioned, they'd switch back and forth during the shows, hopefully (but not always) seamlessly.

Before that, at the NBC station, the network controlled the KU-band dishes as well as the receivers. They'd literally move the backup dish to catch a regional sports event or a special commercial break. We'd occasionally have switching errors that would result in static on the air in place of a commercial or promo.

Fox, UPN and WB had only one or two feeds total, and they could be picked up in the clear on any C-band receiver. My ABC station got bought by Fox right before I left, and I seem to recall them installing some sort of network-controlled satellite system, but I'm not sure they were using it yet except for maybe football.

It was all analog then. You can get several digital stations on a single analog transponder, so heaven only knows how many feeds they're running now.

There is not a separate schedule for the Central zone. They run the shows at the same tme as the East Coast, IE an hour earlier local time. I don't know what Mountain does.

I just finished watching ABC World News Tonight on KABC. Segments 1 and 3 were 4x3 SD, segments 2 and 4 are 16x9 HD.

The HD looks fine, by the way.

???????

I'm seeing ZERO OTA signal for DTV channels 2, 7, 11, and 13 (among others) today. Channels 4 and 5 are fine on DTV. Anyone else have this problem? Odd that there's no mention of it anywhere; could my antenna be on the fritz?

???????

I'm seeing ZERO OTA signal for DTV channels 2, 7, 11, and 13 (among others) today. Anyone else have this problem? Odd that there's no mention of it anywhere; could my antenna be on the fritz?

They are all coming in here as strong as always, except for 13. That went away about four years ago and never came back.

All the poor quality ABC programming I have mentioned have been 16:9 widescreen and are supposed to be in HD.Tonight Ugly Betty actually did not look all that bad but right now,Grey's Anatomy(mind you i never watch these shows normally)looks awful,way worse than dvd quality-fuzzy,pasty and blurry.Even the HD commercials are of low quality.Maybe like narkspud said,KABC switched network feeds at 9pm because there is a dramatic difference between these two shows when they should look similar quality wise.

They are all coming in here as strong as always, except for 13. That went away about four years ago and never came back.

Thanks for the quick reply. I find it hard to believe that my antenna (or ATSC receiver in my HDTV) would develop holes in the reception spectrum. If some obstruction has appeared between me and Mount Wilson ("luxury" high-rise condos in North Hollywood?) to remove those channels, I'm going to FLIP. I guess I'll give it a couple of days...I've just never seen those channels at a flat zero bars on my HDTV, even without an antenna.

Updated: The problem is mine and mine alone. The built-in amplifier on my external antenna was turned down (and seems more noisy than usual). Nothing to see here...this is why I mainly lurk.

Did anyone watch tonight's Smallville? Was its audio in stereo only and not 5.1? Supernatural was in 5.1 though!

ABC, CBS, and CW all have 2 HD feeds, east and west. Same with NBC, though they're reportedly going to start doing separate ones for the different timezones once they drop the SD feeds and move HD to MPEG4. Fox has separate HD feeds for Eastern, Central, Mountain, Arizona (during DST months), Pacific, and Hawaii, though only 4 are active at a time. Fox has nearly total control of what is put out by their affiliates during network programming because of the splicer (the only things the station can do are key the legal ID and drop the splicer out of network mode back to local). On the other networks, the stations have control of the HD; most have the HD switched off the same playlist that controls analog, while the more advanced have the HD as primary and the analog slaved to it, and the less advanced have someone who manually flips a switch.

ABC, CBS, and CW all have 2 HD feeds, east and west. Same with NBC, though they're reportedly going to start doing separate ones for the different timezones once they drop the SD feeds and move HD to MPEG4. Fox has separate HD feeds for Eastern, Central, Mountain, Arizona (during DST months), Pacific, and Hawaii, though only 4 are active at a time. Fox has nearly total control of what is put out by their affiliates during network programming because of the splicer (the only things the station can do are key the legal ID and drop the splicer out of network mode back to local). On the other networks, the stations have control of the HD; most have the HD switched off the same playlist that controls analog, while the more advanced have the HD as primary and the analog slaved to it, and the less advanced have someone who manually flips a switch.

So they're no longer doing the transponder hopping? If that's the case, then what IS the explanation for the ABC News shows switching in and out of HD from segment to segment?

Your description of the splicer is EXACTLY what we had at the ABC and NBC affiliates. You could switch NBC's system to manual, but you'd be getting a phone call from network control before you sat back down.

So they're no longer doing the transponder hopping? If that's the case, then what IS the explanation for the ABC News shows switching in and out of HD from segment to segment?

Your description of the splicer is EXACTLY what we had at the ABC and NBC affiliates. You could switch NBC's system to manual, but you'd be getting a phone call from network control before you sat back down.
Local yokels messing up the playlist? I'd wager that every segment that comes back in SD was preceded by a local commercial. I understand that networks provide the control information, but few stations have an independent control path for HD since it's a pretty significant cost and requires a lot more effort to insert local material synced with the analog side. Instead, HD is controlled simply by extra events added to the existing SD playlist, so if someone forgets to add one to switch it back to HD after local inserts, it stays SD. Once the major networks drop their SD feeds, this should hopefully become a thing of the past since HD will be the primary product.

I've lost my lock with my TV on KCOP a couple of days ago and my DTV converters all show a drop in signal level right to their threshold. Any body else see this?

afaik, the guy involved in the NBC decision to flag all digital audio as 5.1, whether it is actually 5.1 or not, was hired by ABC.

He is now doing the same to ABC digital audio.[he is VP for digital at ABC.]World News, Nightline and GMA audio are all stuffed. [they output in stereo, but flag it as 5.1.]

He is fully aware that it "scrambles" a 5.1 system's processing when a stereo signal is incorrectly flagged as 5.1 [ie gives no center channel] but he thinks it sounds just fine like that -- he says he cant tell any difference with the center channel working or not!

he basically says, [incorrectly] flagging everything as 5.1, helps the problems they are having with maintaining the consistency of their audio signal.

yes-- instead of fixing the actual issue, he does something he knows is incorrect to "fix" it. 2 wrongs make a right, in his book.

So its not a technical issue, he knows exactly what's wrong. its a personnel issue.

However, the local ABC HD news is flagged as 5.1 but the center channel works [and I dont think that show is 5.1] as is the new Oprah in HD.]

Im sure someone here knows how this is done.

If so, please let me know what the tech terms are, so I can tell the ABC VP of digital how to do it....

ABC spent $10m on an "upgrade" of the ABC World News studios to HD, and started broadcasting in HD from the dem convention.

given the audio fiasco, it would not surprise me at all if the SD/HD switching issues originate from the NY studio.

I will probably email Westin, who is head of ABC News. Its pitiful that they spent $10m dollars and cant get the audio right. Im sure their sponsors would be horrified to hear how their million dollar commercials sound.

I have not had any issues with PQ of ABC HD. Just audio.

thanks

60 Minutes is now in HD. what's up with the picture? interview footage of mccain looks terrible? motion is jerky, lot of picture noise? what are they doing?

they are also stretching 4/3 SD footage to 16/9, looks terrible

audio is flagged 5.1 but center channel is working fine though... its a mircale how they do that, I tell you...

Tonight is another good opportunity to observe the atrocious PQ on KABC-DT while they are showing the Emmy Awards.Is this really HD???It looks worse than Fox widescreen 480i.I just played back this years Academy Awards on my HD DVR and the difference is like night & day.Where i would imagine both broadcasts should look similar the Academy Awards looked like true HD.What the hell is going on over at KABC?

ABC has no way to tell their affiliates what the correct flagging is on network programming. CBS, CW, and NBC provide metadata to the station which can then be passed to the encoder telling it how to switch. Fox's splicer directly passes the network's audio, so the station doesn't need to be informed of what to do. ABC simply gives the station a 6 channel AC3 at 640kb/s, and the station must decode that and encode it to to an ATSC-compliant bitrate, usually 384kb/s, manually providing information to the encoder on what settings to use. There's absolutely nothing a local station can do to automatically process the incoming stream from ABC and pass relevant information to the encoder. ABC does provide upmixed DD5.1 audio on some shows that aren't true DD5.1, such as ESPN on ABC sports programming, but no such luck on news programming.

KABC has an audio processor that upmixes stereo sources such as local programming and syndicated shows to DD5.1, so they have dialog in the center channel, but that device can only do its job if it knows what the incoming source is.

I used to receive it just fine. Now I switch it on and the signal starts strong and drops right down very quickly but never drops out though it shows weak. It is hard to explain but since it was such a strong signal before I find it very confusing. Eleven is suddenly worse for me than KCOP which has always been my problem child before.

Anyone know if there is any possibility of us getting some decent sub-channels here soon. I understand they are heresy to some but if they are going to exist couldn't we get something other than paid programming on them. I've found RTV, .2 and others in different markets. I'd love to have something other than appeals for me to buy junk.

He is fully aware that it "scrambles" a 5.1 system's processing when a stereo signal is incorrectly flagged as 5.1 [ie gives no center channel] but he thinks it sounds just fine like that -- he says he cant tell any difference with the center channel working or not!

I'm not that up on surround processing, having not gathered up sufficient funds to buy the necessary speakerage, but are you saying that the sound from these "incorrectly flagged" broadcasts only comes out of the front right and left speakers?

Stereo has always worked on two speakers. Assuming the system is set up properly, why would that sound any different from having a center channel?

What am I missing here? I come seeking knowledge.

When you have a 5.1 speaker system, the audio receiver may process the incoming signal:

When a 5.1 signal is received, the receiver just passes each channel to the corresponding speaker. If the 5.1 signal really only contains the front left and right channels, only those speakers are driven.

When a 2.0 signal is received, the receiver can apply processing to it, extract a center channel and create some rear channel audio, too (usually using Dolby Prologic processing). Dialog is most often mixed to the center, so the processing sends the dialog to the center channel.

So, when the input is incorrectly flagged as 5.1, when it is actually 2.0, it stops the receiver from doing its job.

As I feared.

In other words, it stops the receiver from taking the original pristine signal and futzing around with it. It's the same "black box" stuff that brought us fake stereo in the 60s and 70s and colorized movies in the 80s.

Call me a purist, but I'm gonna have to side with the guy at ABC. YMMV.

I'm not that up on surround processing, having not gathered up sufficient funds to buy the necessary speakerage, but are you saying that the sound from these "incorrectly flagged" broadcasts only comes out of the front right and left speakers?

Stereo has always worked on two speakers. Assuming the system is set up properly, why would that sound any different from having a center channel?

What am I missing here? I come seeking knowledge.
The station's Dolby Decoders provide L/R/C/LS/RS/SW for true 5.1 transmission.
There are ALSO stereo outputs (t for total): Lt=L+C/2 and Rt=R+C/2.
Note ABSENCE of surround info and subwoofer.

The "Missing Center Channel Problem" occurs when the source program is true 5.1,
but they erroneously end up with a "5.1" STEREO transmission consisting of L/R instead of Lt/Rt....
Dialog is greatly suppressed and may be "echoey" since it mostly contains background pickup.
Without SW channel, Bass is weaker. Rear surrounds are usually missing.

Since they failed to actually transmit the Center info, it will also be missing
if you only have a stereo-capable DTV....although my Pioneer AVR has a
Dialog Enhancement feature that helps a little....I know there is a serious
problem when AVR "Stereo" setting is a lot louder than "Surround"....

NBC-Univ guy said it was a METADATA problem that he guaranteed they had solved...

I think they get these things confused when they go through legacy local station
STEREO switching systems in order to insert ads, station IDs and "Breaking News".
[Yeah...fur sure it's broke....]

So, when the input is incorrectly flagged as 5.1, when it is actually 2.0, it stops the receiver from doing its job.

That's the problem I have with doing it this way. I replaced my receiver last year with one that could override some Dolby material (e.g. mono on 2.0). I have DVD's that were stuck with mono sound otherwise, unless I dropped from bitstream to PCM. The new receiver lets me do all channel stereo, even with such mono Dolby tracks. It saves this setting by source and signal input type, which makes it really easy.

However, I have not been able to replicate this with my TV's digital out and the 5.1 DD flag that shows up on my receiver. I need to look at this again.

It would have been nice if KNBC had real sound. The Beijing opening ceremonies could have been so much better.

Has anyone seen a CBS Florida Gators game in the Swamp? Now *that* is a TV viewing experience.

The "Missing Center Channel Problem" occurs when the source program is true 5.1,
but they erroneously end up with a "5.1" STEREO transmission consisting of L/R instead of Lt/Rt....
Dialog is greatly suppressed and may be "echoey" since it mostly contains background pickup.
Without SW channel, Bass is weaker. Rear surrounds are usually missing.

But what you're talking about here is a 5.1 mix that's had some of its channels removed, including the center one with the dialog. Obviously that would be a bad thing.

I thought the earlier posts were referring to a show that was mixed in stereo but being sent out over two channels of a 5.1 transmission, with the other channels being silent. Which would create old-fashioned 2-speaker stereo. I'm still seeing no problem there.

But what you're talking about here is a 5.1 mix that's had some of its channels removed, including the center one with the dialog. Obviously that would be a bad thing.

I thought the earlier posts were referring to a show that was mixed in stereo but being sent out over two channels of a 5.1 transmission, with the other channels being silent. Which would create old-fashioned 2-speaker stereo. I'm still seeing no problem there.
Most viewers with a 6 speaker setup have a good amount of separation on the L/R speakers since they are designed to carry effects and music, and the separation makes for a better experience. The center channel which is usually right above or below the TV, so dialog sounds like it is coming from the TV as it should. When stereo audio is improperly flagged as 5.1, the dialog comes from the sides which doesn't sound nearly as good as it would coming from the center channel. Unfortunately, ABC has no way to provide metadata to their affiliates telling them to switch to stereo, and NBC has been incorrectly flagging stereo audio as 5.1 since the Winter Olympics in 2006.

The point is that the viewer should have the choice of how to process the audio, either leaving as stereo or applying processing to create the center channel.

It was HD, then weird pauses, resumed, then it went SD for about 5-6 minutes! Then, a HD commercial came up, and my SCC came back in HD. This was over the air (OTA). Did you guys see this too?

Yes, it appeared to be a network feed issue, as this was reported in other West coast markets as well.

Yes, it appeared to be a network feed issue, as this was reported in other West coast markets as well.Wow, how did you find that out? I thought it was weird to see it happen.

Tonight is another good opportunity io observe the atrocious PQ on KABC-DT while they are showing the Emmy Awards.Is this really HD???It looks worse than Fox widescreen 480i.I just played back this years Academy Awards on my HD DVR and the difference is like night & day.Where i would imagine both broadcasts should look similar the Academy Awards looked like true HD.What the hell is going on over at KABC?


Tonight I did confirm your observations regarding the poor picture quality of ABC network broadcasts over KABC. It definitely looks like widescreen standard definition only. Earlier tonight however, "Jeapordy" did look very good, but it was probably originating locally and not through the network.

Anyway, I hope they get this fixed before the Academy Awards next year.

Wow, how did you find that out? I thought it was weird to see it happen.

I'm a "guest" here from another thread. :D But seriously -- I'm in Northern CA and saw it happen here -- wasn't sure if it was my local station or not -- seemed like a network issue so I checked into a few West coast local threads to see if anyone else saw it. And this is the first place I saw it mentioned.

Tonight is another good opportunity io observe the atrocious PQ on KABC-DT while they are showing the Emmy Awards.Is this really HD???It looks worse than Fox widescreen 480i.I just played back this years Academy Awards on my HD DVR and the difference is like night & day.Where i would imagine both broadcasts should look similar the Academy Awards looked like true HD.What the hell is going on over at KABC?

I just happened into this thread because of a different issue, but saw your comment and have some information to add. Apparently, this is not a KABC issue but rather an issue with the entire ABC West coast feed. I have been looking at this very soft picture quality on both the ABC affiliates I can receive in Northern CA. People in other West coast cities, like Portland, have reported the same problem. I am looking at "Dancing with the Stars" right now, and it is ridiculously soft. Not just the show, but also all the commercials. Ironically, when my local stations goes to SD upconvert for the local breaks, it looks sharper!

Anyway, you are not alone. Everyone on the West coast is getting hosed.

I just happened into this thread because of a different issue, but saw your comment and have some information to add. Apparently, this is not a KABC issue but rather an issue with the entire ABC West coast feed. I have been looking at this very soft picture quality on both the ABC affiliates I can receive in Northern CA. People in other West coast cities, like Portland, have reported the same problem. I am looking at "Dancing with the Stars" right now, and it is ridiculously soft. Not just the show, but also all the commercials. Ironically, when my local stations goes to SD upconvert for the local breaks, it looks sharper!

Anyway, you are not alone. Everyone on the West coast is getting hosed.I am noticing this too on my 19" LCD monitor. I thought my eyes, video driver, or something was going crazy!! What's going on? People are going to be upset with the HD stuff!

It was HD, then weird pauses, resumed, then it went SD for about 5-6 minutes! Then, a HD commercial came up, and my SCC came back in HD. This was over the air (OTA). Did you guys see this too?

No, but then I was watching Gossip Girl on KTLA. I'm actually quite impressed with the picture quality on The CW. A year ago, I couldn't have imagined making such a trade and I could have recorded SCC if I had thought of it.

I just happened into this thread because of a different issue, but saw your comment and have some information to add. Apparently, this is not a KABC issue but rather an issue with the entire ABC West coast feed. I have been looking at this very soft picture quality on both the ABC affiliates I can receive in Northern CA. People in other West coast cities, like Portland, have reported the same problem. I am looking at "Dancing with the Stars" right now, and it is ridiculously soft. Not just the show, but also all the commercials. Ironically, when my local stations goes to SD upconvert for the local breaks, it looks sharper!

Anyway, you are not alone. Everyone on the West coast is getting hosed.

I have been complaining about this for for weeks now and today is the first time anyone has even made a comment.I was starting to feel like the crazy uncle in the attic seeing things.So I thank you and HarrisonS for noticing and confirming this problem and yes,DWTS looks as if it was shot through vaseline covered glass.My favorite show,Boston Legal now also looks like crap.This was one of the sharpest most beautiful shows on any network.

I have been complaining about this for for weeks now and today is the first time anyone has even made a comment.I was starting to feel like the crazy uncle in the attic seeing things.

HAHA! Believe me, I've been in the same position more times than I can count, thinking I was nuts for being the only one that was complaining about something that seems blatantly obvious.

Why more people aren't seeing this problem escapes me. What's even more amazing is that we, the home viewers, see it, yet it appears to be unnoticed by the network engineers. :confused:

I will have some comparison pics up later tonight. I found a great looking spot that ran on both ABC and FOX tonight, and the difference in quality is staggering. Needless to say, the FOX presentation blew ABC away. I gotta transfer both shows out of my Series 3 TiVo, and then make some screen caps.

I am noticing this too on my 19" LCD monitor. I thought my eyes, video driver, or something was going crazy!! What's going on? People are going to be upset with the HD stuff!

Something is messed up at the network level. People (like us) ARE upset, though many don't seem to notice. I gotta think it only is affecting those of us in the West, as I don't see complaints from other time zones.

OK, here is the all the visual proof you need to what's wrong with ABC's HD (at least on the West coast).

The left image was taken from a commercial on ABC tonight, and the right image is from the same commercial on FOX. The difference is unsubtle. And no, I am not a shill for BlackBerrys! Just happened to be a very detailed image that clearly (no pun intended) demonstrates the issue.

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3595/abchdoh0.th.jpg (http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abchdoh0.jpg) http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4495/foxhdhi0.th.jpg (http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=foxhdhi0.jpg)

Why more people aren't seeing this problem escapes me.

Perhaps nobody watches ABC. :D

Something is messed up at the network level. People (like us) ARE upset, though many don't seem to notice. I gotta think it only is affecting those of us in the West, as I don't see complaints from other time zones.So how do we complain to TV companies? Do we contact via abc.com, local affliates, etc.?

Is this being discussed in DTV newsgroups too? ABC serious need to get this fixed. I hate blurry HD! It reminds me of DVDs after seeing HD. Ugh!

Also, is this issue still there for cable, satellite, etc. too? Or only OTA?

I have a friend who works at an ABC West coast station, and he's going to call ABC to report it. Unfortunately, he's on vacation this week, so it won't happen until at least next Monday.

In the meantime, I guess everybody can complain to KABC and hope that they'll see the problem and call NY. It DOES affect cable, satellite, or whatever, as the video is getting hosed BEFORE it even reaches KABC -- so when they send it out, everybody is getting the bad video.

I have a friend who works at an ABC West coast station, and he's going to call ABC to report it. Unfortunately, he's on vacation this week, so it won't happen until at least next Monday.

In the meantime, I guess everybody can complain to KABC and hope that they'll see the problem and call NY. It DOES affect cable, satellite, or whatever, as the video is getting hosed BEFORE it even reaches KABC -- so when they send it out, everybody is getting the bad video.I used http://abc.go.com/site/contactus.html?lid=ABCCOMGlobalFooter&lpos=CONTACT and http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/feature?section=resources/inside_station&id=5788340 ... Any others?

Well KTTV went back to normal for me.

Is it me or is low today? I only get 40% (watchable -- no artificats, freezes, etc.) compared to 60-70% from last Thursday night. I didn't touch my antenna. :)

Test

TestTest what?

Paraphrase / repost from my attempt in my Sony XBR1 SXRD Owner's Threat posts:

Just bought and moved into a new house in the eastern SGV/Covinas area. Haven't decided on the best choice before me: FIOS, DirecTV, or Time Warner Cable (definitely leaning to FIOS with CableCARD.

Anyhoo, got a cheap $10 bunny ears antenna, did the auto program and picked up something like 16 analog and 58 digital. I got to experience about 30seconds of amazingly good NFL on NBC4.1DT and then it went to no signal. No I'm not getting nada on any channel. Auto program again shows only analog channels... did all of the digitals change signal, a weird weather anomoly stopping my reception or did the built in ATSC tuner take a dump?

Next day, experimented a bit more. Went to Channels and 'Add Digital" and got the channels again, but not at first (on the same center channel stand on top of the XBR1 cabinet), but when I moved it towards my sliding glass window, I began picking up the Digital Channels again! Just as I'm setting up favorites and thinking I solved it, it goes out again. I'm thinking it was at least 2 minutes give or take 30 seconds or so. Now not getting anything.

The circumstances were too close to the day before, though. It's around the same time, so interference or something could be starting up... dusk is right around now (and same time'ish yesterday), so not sure if something is "getting hot" in my XBR1 and shorting or cutting off my ATSC turner or something or if perhaps something is changing in the electromagnetic / signal environment around here or something around 19:00 PDT... Gonna have to test this out a bit more scientifically....

Is it me or is low today? I only get 40% (watchable -- no artifacts, freezes, etc.) compared to 60-70% from last Thursday night. I didn't touch my antenna. :)Hmm, now it is back to 60% to 70%. No idea what happened this morning (9 AM PDT). Maybe weather related from the heat?

How do you measuring the signal strength?

How do you measuring the signal strength?With DVB Viewer software in Windows.

BTW, you might need a stronger antenna than rabbit ears. They were too weak for my area, and I am under 20 miles from the transmitters on Mt. Wilson. I had to get a DB2 bowtie antenna.

ah gotcha. Yeah I'm getting that impression. According to tvfool, I'm between 13 and 21 miles for most of the stations (90% of them 13.0 to 13.9 mi) with signal strength -43.6 to -55.

Think the Channelmaster 153" or Radioshack VU190 160" are overkill or should I stick to something like a DB2?

Thanks!

ah gotcha. Yeah I'm getting that impression. According to tvfool, I'm between 13 and 21 miles for most of the stations (90% of them 13.0 to 13.9 mi) with signal strength -43.6 to -55.

Think the Channelmaster 153" or Radioshack VU190 160" are overkill or should I stick to something like a DB2?

Thanks!What did antennaweb and tvfool say? It should tell you what you need. Also, be sure you can return the antennae if they don't work out. So basically, get something stronger than rabbit ears.

I am curious about your analog. Are they clear? Not so clear?

antennaweb says yellow uhf for most but a couple yellow vhf. Don't see where tvfool says what antenna to use? So it looks like small multidirectional (one reason i thought i'd be ok with the rabbit ears). Why i'm thinking those huge beasts are overkill, mostly.

Most of the analogs look good. Ch 11 and 13 are the worst (kind of hazy, especially 13). The HD when I was getting them, were all crystal clear, at least as good (if not better) than anything I ever got from Charter HD. For the couple minutes (at most) I can keep it.

This bunny ears came with a maybe 3 foot long flat cord that connects to the coaxial adapter but can't clear away horizontally from my 60" XBR1 though i can get it maybe a foot above the TV.

I guess it's easiest to say that the bunny ears aren't enough but I can't understand why I get what appears to be a great HD signal, but only on the order of single digit minutes...

For the SGV discussion. I've had great results using a RS bowtie ($4.00 and some change) with inline amplifier (less than $20. Bowtie is very directional and inline amplifier is plus 10db. Bowtie goes outside towards the signal. I'm using it digital towards Santa Barbara 45 miles. If it works, then you can try coupling a few of them for both analog and digital. Learned about the bowtie from a San Francisco thread where it was being used in San Jose on a pier on the water and getting digital signals from Sutro Towers in San Francisco a distance of approximately 80 miles. Not bad for 4 dollars.

I just purchase a HD set and would like to be able to place an indoor antenna right behind it. This is what TVFool gave for my address. The thing I am concern about is getting abc and kcal. I follow the lakers on Kcal and my favorite shows are on abc. I am leaning towards the MANT940. Any recommendations?
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/6912/radardigital2be5.th.png (http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=radardigital2be5.png)

Hmm, now it is back to 60% to 70%. No idea what happened this morning (9 AM PDT). Maybe weather related from the heat?Hmm, tonight is high 40% to 50%. I wonder why the flucuations.

I just purchase a HD set and would like to be able to place an indoor antenna right behind it. This is what TVFool gave for my address. The thing I am concern about is getting abc and kcal. I follow the lakers on Kcal and my favorite shows are on abc. I am leaning towards the MANT940. Any recommendations?


I would try a $10 un-amplified rabbit ear/loop combo first to see if that is all you need. I would not recommend the MANT940 as it is UHF only and we will need an upper VHF (7-13) antenna next year for ABC, KCAL, FOX and KCOP.

Note that behind a TV is probably not a good spot, however, especially if your building has stucco siding. A window sill, facing Mt. Wilson would be a better place.

KABC is one of the more finicky signals locally, so be prepared to move the antenna around until you find a good spot.

As I feared.

In other words, it stops the receiver from taking the original pristine signal and futzing around with it. It's the same "black box" stuff that brought us fake stereo in the 60s and 70s and colorized movies in the 80s.

Call me a purist, but I'm gonna have to side with the guy at ABC. YMMV.

as has been explained very well by others here who have much better knowledge than I, [thanks hollands and coyoteaz] but to reiterate.

a I understand it, under these conditions L and R {stereo] is not the same as front L / front R in an incorrectly flagged 5.1. its sounds just dreadful because the center channel is "missing".

they are actually the ones futzing around with the signal, by pretending its 5.1 when it isnt. as was said, if they just broadcast the stereo and flagged it correctly as stereo, everything would be fine. my system would just process it as stereo. not fake 5.1.

as was explained to me by the ABC/ ex NBC guy responsible for this shambles, basically he knows it doesnt sound right but doesnt care. he thinks its okay. he knows that very few people have OTA HD, and even fewer of them have 5.1 systems. a pathetic excuse for a shoddy job, imho.

these are the same smart people that brought you the wonder of 14/9 crop and zoom, and the 16/9 , 4/3 stretch

iirc, he also said the show is in stereo, and is ouput in stereo, but is flagged [incorrectly] by them as 5.1 and then sent to the affiliates. I spoke to local KABC who didnt care either. But they couldnt change it locally

given that though, I then dont really understand why, on the rebroadcast on 7.2 the audio is fine, flagged as stereo, but of course then the picture is pants.

I guess no one here is watching 60 minutes, and its atrocious HD PQ, for all their non studio cameras. its like shaky cellphone video.

KABC is one of the more finicky signals locally, so be prepared to move the antenna around until you find a good spot.Why is it finicky? I noticed it weaker than other stations beside KLCS (still can't get higher than 40% and don't care for it). What is KABC7 doing vs. others?

I have received confirmation that analog KJLA is indeed off, from the station itself:

Yes, KJLA analog CH 57 has been turned off.

They did not confirm the date, however.

Why is it finicky? I noticed it weaker than other stations beside KLCS (still can't get higher than 40% and don't care for it). What is KABC7 doing vs. others?

It's one of those mysteries, along with KCOP/66. They should be ok, but it's always seemed like they are running at a lower power than their licenses indicate. It could be that they have poor encoders, interference that we can't see or some other problems. In any event, I don't expect any improvement until they go back to their analog channels (7 & 13 for these two).

It's one of those mysteries, along with KCOP/66. They should be ok, but it's always seemed like they are running at a lower power than their licenses indicate. It could be that they have poor encoders, interference that we can't see or some other problems. In any event, I don't expect any improvement until they go back to their analog channels (7 & 13 for these two).Ah, I was wondering KABC7 is lower signal strength in the morning compared to nights. I wonder if they powered it down. Even analog is fine.

KCOP seems good for me. I just hope I get better signals with my current setup on and after 2/17/2009!

It was HD, then weird pauses, resumed, then it went SD for about 5-6 minutes! Then, a HD commercial came up, and my SCC came back in HD. This was over the air (OTA). Did you guys see this too?Tonight's Sarah Conners episode and its commercials started out in SD for about 15 minutes, then back to HD (actually saw pixel blocks transforming into HD)! What's up with FOX (KTTV for me) these days?

NBC Universal Shutting Down Weather Plus

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6602781.html

There has been some rejoicing about this in other threads. We will have to see what KNBC does with this sub. Of course, KNBC has a 2nd sub as well. I would prefer to have no subs and better picture quality than what we have now.

However, the PQ on Fox isn't much better and they don't run any subs. I can't get them to respond to any e-mails, however.

According to HDTVexpert.com, NBC O&O stations are now carrying Universal Sports on one of their subchannels so it's possible this might replace Weather Plus.

According to HDTVexpert.com, NBC O&O stations are now carrying Universal Sports on one of their subchannels so it's possible this might replace Weather Plus.

KNBC already carries that on 4.4, when Raw isn't on.

I tuned into KNBC this evening around 6:30pm, and while analog 4 was showing the NBC Nightly News, 4-1 was showing The Office, then went into the Thursday night version of Saturday Night Live. A few minutes into this, 4-1 switched back to the NBC Nightly News. Looks like they accidently took the East Coast feed for awhile.

Was it just me or was the Fox broadcast of the NLCS tonight having problems? The video quality looked good, but audio dropouts were common throughout the game. I checked the diagnostics on my TV and didn't see any errors and the SNR was consistently in the 28-30 range. Perhaps it was a problem with their feed instead.

I recorded tonight's Smallville episode (Instinct) over the air (OTA) and noticed the first half (including its commercials) was only in standard definition (SD) and not high definition (HD). Did anyone notice it or just me? I am using KTLA 5.1's feed.

I thought KTTV 11.1 had problems with its recent Sarah Conner's Chronciles, but it looks like KTLA 5.1 is too. :(

Yes, I watched a recording of that show this afternoon and it was in SD for the first 20 minutes on KTLA 5.1. It's not the first time they have had that problem.

Yes, I watched a recording of that show this afternoon and it was in SD for the first 20 minutes on KTLA 5.1. It's not the first time they have had that problem.Thanks. Both KTTV and KTLA are not doing good jobs with their HD feeds. :(

Was it just me or was the Fox broadcast of the NLCS tonight having problems? The video quality looked good, but audio dropouts were common throughout the game. I checked the diagnostics on my TV and didn't see any errors and the SNR was consistently in the 28-30 range. Perhaps it was a problem with their feed instead.

A possible explanation can be found at tvpredictions.com. A blog from Whip states that Fox has to dumb down the HD signal so that affilitates with subchannels can use the signal unaltered. I hope that's not true.

A possible explanation can be found at tvpredictions.com. A blog from Whip states that Fox has to dumb down the HD signal so that affilitates with subchannels can use the signal unaltered. I hope that's not true.

It IS true that FOX leaves enough room in the stream for the affiliates to add a subchannel, however, I do not believe that this has anything to do with the complaints against their sports broadcasts. The same "pipe" is used for regular programming, and that looks fine. I have been saying for years that "something" happens to sports programming before they send it out -- exactly WHAT, I can't say, but it is definitely lacking in the resolution department. So while I agree that it doesn't look great, I don't believe the affiliate distribution system is the cause.

A possible explanation can be found at tvpredictions.com. A blog from Whip states that Fox has to dumb down the HD signal so that affilitates with subchannels can use the signal unaltered. I hope that's not true.

It would have nothing to do with sound dropouts.

Fox does hold their HD below 16 Mbps though to allow for a subchannel. The flip side is that because the HD is only compressed once, at the source, using one of the best encoders available, it ends up looking pretty good even at the reduced rate.

- Trip

Hi, I am looking to buy an outdoor antenna that will be good not only now but next year as well. Am I correct in saying that I need a UHF/VHF antenna and NOT a UHF antenna only?

From what I understand I'll need an antenna that is both UHF and VHF because some channels will be on VHF.

What antenna do you guys recommended? Fry's sells the channel master DB2, is that UHF/VHF and would that be a good choice?

Hi, I am looking to buy an outdoor antenna that will be good not only now but next year as well. Am I correct in saying that I need a UHF/VHF antenna and NOT a UHF antenna only?

From what I understand I'll need an antenna that is both UHF and VHF because some channels will be on VHF.

What antenna do you guys recommended? Fry's sells the channel master DB2, is that UHF/VHF and would that be a good choice?


I am in the same situation as you, and plan to add a VHF antenna to my UHF-only setup. Ideally, you would want a VHF antenna that only covers ch. 7 - 13, since you won't need ch. 2 - 6, and it is those channels, and their long wavelengths, that add most of the bulk and wind resistance to a TV antenna.

One choice is the Channel Master 4228 that covers UHF and also channels 7 - 13 fairly well. Even better, I think, would be to keep your present UHF setup, which probably has more gain and better performance than a combo, and add a separate antenna for ch 7 - 13. Winegard has a new antenna, the YA-1713 that only covers ch 7 - 13, and has about 10 db gain which is quite good. Fry's reportedly has the CM 4228 and very likely also has the YA-1713.

KTLA has been doing a terrible job of switching their HD. About 1/4 of the time their broadcast of Two and a Half Men starts out SD. They must be using manual switching and then forget to do it. They need to get on the stick and get an automatic system.

Rick R

On another subject I noticed that KCBS had a fire info crawl that was in HD. This is a great improvement. KABC in the past had to switch to a SD broadcast when they wanted to add an informational crawl.

Rick R

I am in the same situation as you, and plan to add a VHF antenna to my UHF-only setup. Ideally, you would want a VHF antenna that only covers ch. 7 - 13, since you won't need ch. 2 - 6, and it is those channels, and their long wavelengths, that add most of the bulk and wind resistance to a TV antenna.

One choice is the Channel Master 4228 that covers UHF and also channels 7 - 13 fairly well. Even better, I think, would be to keep your present UHF setup, which probably has more gain and better performance than a combo, and add a separate antenna for ch 7 - 13. Winegard has a new antenna, the YA-1713 that only covers ch 7 - 13, and has about 10 db gain which is quite good. Fry's reportedly has the CM 4228 and very likely also has the YA-1713.

What's this? I have a UHF only antenna, and NOW I'm going to need a VHF array to get channels 7-13? Is something changing? You have a link about the details, 'cause I'd really like to read them since I'm currently helping my mother out with a new antenna.

BTW, I get channels 7.1-13.1 just fine.

KABC, KCAL, KTTV, and KCOP (7, 9, 11, and 13) are all going back to their high VHF channels at the end of the digital transition in February.

I've been noticing audio static on the KNBC's main HD 4-1 feed. I notice it at all times of day, notably during "The Bonnie Hunt Show" and evening shows like "Heroes" or "Chuck." It's been doing it for about a week and half now.

I use a TiVo HD to record and don't notice it on any other channels. Most of the static seems to be coming from the left speaker.

Is anyone else having this problem?

Thanks!

What's this? I have a UHF only antenna, and NOW I'm going to need a VHF array to get channels 7-13? Is something changing? You have a link about the details, 'cause I'd really like to read them since I'm currently helping my mother out with a new antenna.

BTW, I get channels 7.1-13.1 just fine.If, with your UHF antenna, you can view an acceptable analog picture on channels 7, 9, 11, and 13, then you should be fine once those stations move to VHF in 2009.

I've been noticing audio static on the KNBC's main HD 4-1 feed. I notice it at all times of day, notably during "The Bonnie Hunt Show" and evening shows like "Heroes" or "Chuck." It's been doing it for about a week and half now.

I use a TiVo HD to record and don't notice it on any other channels. Most of the static seems to be coming from the left speaker.

Is anyone else having this problem?

Thanks!

Yes, I hear that crackle too. It seems to be the loudest in the left front channel during network shows... I don't seem to hear it on local stuff like the news.

Yes, I hear that crackle too. It seems to be the loudest in the left front channel during network shows... I don't seem to hear it on local stuff like the news.

I've been hearing it too. Sounds like a digital transition, a very sharp pop fairly low amplitude.

KTLA has been doing a terrible job of switching their HD. About 1/4 of the time their broadcast of Two and a Half Men starts out SD. They must be using manual switching and then forget to do it. They need to get on the stick and get an automatic system.Yeah, I noticed the SD issue. I recall three times ever since I got HD (almost three years now). Ugh.

KTTV is getting bad too. I haven't seen others, especially the bigger stations, do it yet.


I noticed my KABC7's signal strength was horrible this morning at about 9:30 AM PDT. It was 30%-40%. I wonder why so weak in the morning. Does anyone know?

Yes, I hear that crackle too. It seems to be the loudest in the left front channel during network shows... I don't seem to hear it on local stuff like the news.I haven't noticed. I didn't have my 4.1 audio setup cranked up loud. Was the crackle faint or something?

What's this? I have a UHF only antenna, and NOW I'm going to need a VHF array to get channels 7-13? Is something changing? You have a link about the details, 'cause I'd really like to read them since I'm currently helping my mother out with a new antenna.

BTW, I get channels 7.1-13.1 just fine.

If you go to http://antennaweb.org click "Choose an Antenna", and enter your zip code, you will get to a table that shows the current the channels for each station, and the channels that they will move to on Feb 17, 2009.

For example, ABC, which shows up as "channel 7.1" on your digital tuner is actually on 53 right now. On Feb 17, "channel 7.1" will move to 7. Likewise 9.1 is currently on 43, 11.1 is on 65, and 13.1 is on 66.

After Feb 17, an antenna that cannot receive VHF-high will no longer allow you to tune these channels.

Just looking at the local Fox 11 Extra innings pre show and at least the studio shots are in HD with SD widescreen remotes and other clips with the HD wings.We will see if tonight's newscast will be HD(last night was SD).

Edited to add:
Yes the newscast was in HD as was KCOP's 11pm news on part of the same set.So now all major stations local news is in HD in LA.

You're not alone. Just got my first SA8300HDC DVR and Heroes was my 1st recorded program. The audio static (click or crackle), which can be heard from plasma speakers or external 5.1) was too distracting. FWIW, No problem w/ 2nd recorded show "Without A Trace".

I've been noticing audio static on the KNBC's main HD 4-1 feed. I notice it at all times of day, notably during "The Bonnie Hunt Show" and evening shows like "Heroes" or "Chuck." It's been doing it for about a week and half now.

I use a TiVo HD to record and don't notice it on any other channels. Most of the static seems to be coming from the left speaker.

Is anyone else having this problem?

Thanks!

Yeah, I noticed the SD issue. I recall three times ever since I got HD (almost three years now). Ugh.

KTTV is getting bad too. I haven't seen others, especially the bigger stations, do it yet.


I noticed my KABC7's signal strength was horrible this morning at about 9:30 AM PDT. It was 30%-40%. I wonder why so weak in the morning. Does anyone know?

I agree. I noticed the poor signal strength last night and again this morning. At first I thought it was my newly mounted antenna but when I walked outside everything looked normal.
Has anyone else experienced this? Any suggestions?

Could it be the transmitting tower's fault?

Thanks for any suggestions.

You're not alone. Just got my first SA8300HDC DVR and Heroes was my 1st recorded program. The audio static (click or crackle), which can be heard from plasma speakers or external 5.1) was too distracting. FWIW, No problem w/ 2nd recorded show "Without A Trace".

I have had an infection in both of my ears for over a week now which has greatly reduced my hearing (what did you say?), but unfortunately my own "noise reduction" hasn't even reduced the static.

I hope they fix it soon...it's going on two weeks now!

Just looking at the local Fox 11 Extra innings pre show and at least the studio shots are in HD with SD widescreen remotes and other clips with the HD wings.We will see if tonight's newscast will be HD(last night was SD).

Edited to add:
Yes the newscast was in HD as was KCOP's 11pm news on part of the same set.So now all major stations local news is in HD in LA.

Yes, finally all major LA local news stations are in HD; however, I still watch
KABC, the pioneer in HD news in our market, because they go beyond HD studio cameras. KABC started with live HD helicopter remotes, then the newsroom went HD, followed by the weather graphics, select sports replays, capability to ingest and playout HD from the helicopter (other than playback from the copter itself, which was an earlier limitation when the station couldn't record HD), experimented with one live HD satellite remote, and more recently HD microwave remotes, possibly using JVC's ProHD 720p camcorders, which have the capability to send an MPEG-2 transport stream on existing microwave infrastructure.

KTLA was second to go HD, they have the second of only two HD live helicopters in SoCal (KABC is the other). They also on rare occasions have HD remotes.

KCBS and KCAL were next and they offered something new to local HD viewers: playback of sports highlights in HD, even from cable/satellite! If you love sports newscast and don't get ESPN in HD, watching KCBS/KCAL is the next best thing. Both share the newest studio and definitely can ingest HD material for playout.

KVEA (Telemundo 52) offers the basic cookie cutter studio HD broadcast, but I believe they are the first to offer non-English newscasts in HD in the US. Ironically, KVEA operates out of the same lot as KNBC and they didn't go HD until about a year later; which brings us to...

KNBC; very late to the game and offered nothing new to veteran/seasoned HD news viewers.

So now we have KTTV and KCOP; I haven't seen KCOP, but watching KTTV this morning, it seems they are not sending HD signals from their helicopters, just low res widescreen. I don't know if they would offer anything new to the typical HD newscasts.

Fol. is FCC/OET Test Report re Lab and On-Air tests of PROTOTYPE
White Space Devices (WSD), dtg 15Oct2008:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-2243A3.pdf

Specific proposals on how WSD would be used are still sketchy,
but would most likely include two types.

A Medium power device would provide wide area coverage for
"low cost" broadband service and would probably require a license
to determine the frequencies of operation (a given service
provider would probably operate on MULTIPLE freqs).
Adjacent channel interference to OTA DTV is a major concern.

WSD developers want all of this to be UNLICENSED so it wouldn't
require any spectrum use coordination and would also be FREE...
Winning bidders for the 700+ MHz spectrum auction would not be happy.....

A second, low power device would operate in your home in order
to talk back to the broadband node (alternatively use 700+ MHz or Cell).

They also want to use low power devices to do whatever Wi-Fi
does today....so they could be everywhere in great numbers.
Which can be a HUGE PROBLEM for a variety of reasons....

Section 4.2 of the Report demonstrates how easy it is to leak
into a DTV and completely block reception of cable channels.
This would also be a problem for cable boxes and SAT receivers
using coax downlead signals in the TV band.

Also note they did not test leakage into USB dongles, PCs
and RPTV sets that might not have as much shielding...

THERE ARE NO WHITE SPACES ON CABLE!!!!!

I notice the "click" sound out of the left front channel on KNBC. It was especially apparent on "My Own Worst Enemy".

Thanks. Both KTTV and KTLA are not doing good jobs with their HD feeds. :(I noticed KTLA has Smallville in stereo mode only! What the heck? Where's the 5.1? Grr!

Are audio and video separate in flipping the switch or something?

I agree. I noticed the poor signal strength last night and again this morning. At first I thought it was my newly mounted antenna but when I walked outside everything looked normal.
Has anyone else experienced this? Any suggestions?

Could it be the transmitting tower's fault?

Thanks for any suggestions.Time to contact it about it!

Smallville doesn't have a real DD5.1 mix. Any 5.1 you may have received in the past was upmixed from stereo.

Smallville doesn't have a real DD5.1 mix. Any 5.1 you may have received in the past was upmixed from stereo.Really? I wasn't aware of that. It sounded like 5.1 to me in the past. What about other TV shows?

If you go to http://antennaweb.org click "Choose an Antenna", and enter your zip code, you will get to a table that shows the current the channels for each station, and the channels that they will move to on Feb 17, 2009.

For example, ABC, which shows up as "channel 7.1" on your digital tuner is actually on 53 right now. On Feb 17, "channel 7.1" will move to 7. Likewise 9.1 is currently on 43, 11.1 is on 65, and 13.1 is on 66.

After Feb 17, an antenna that cannot receive VHF-high will no longer allow you to tune these channels.

Thanks for the info. I'd like to know if you know what the acutal frequencies are for those channels, or know a link where I find them. I want to see if my UHF only antenna can receive them. It covers (460-890Mhz).


BTW, I hear the clicking on my left channel speaker with NBC shows, too. Bonnie Hunt, Heroes, My Name Is Earl, etc. But, I haven't noticed it today. I might be too used to it.

Most dramas have a real 5.1 mix, while most sitcoms are upmixed as part of the production or by the network. Easy way to tell: unplug the center channel of your surround sound setup and turn up the volume; if you can still hear the dialog, the mi isn't true 5.1.

Tribune purchased DD encoders for all of their stations (including KTLA) that are designed to upmix everything to 5.1, though apparently KTLA has some sort of alternate arrangement. Is the 5.1 light lit during the news?

Thanks for the info. I'd like to know if you know what the acutal frequencies are for those channels, or know a link where I find them. I want to see if my UHF only antenna can receive them. It covers (460-890Mhz).
Check the Broadcast column at http://www.jneuhaus.com/fccindex/cablech.html. Subtract 1.25 from the listed number to get the base frequency, or add 1.75 to get the center.

Time to contact it about it!

who do i contact?:confused:

Thanks for the info. I'd like to know if you know what the acutal frequencies are for those channels, or know a link where I find them. I want to see if my UHF only antenna can receive them. It covers (460-890Mhz).
FYI: Link above was for Cable freqs...go to bottom of page for OTA vs Cable freq table:
http://www.qsl.net/atn/library/Broadcast_freqs.htm

FYI: Link above was for Cable freqs...go to bottom of page for OTA vs Cable freq table:
http://www.qsl.net/atn/library/Broadcast_freqs.htm
Hence the direction to check the "Broadcast" column, which does indeed correspond to OTA broadcast frequencies. :rolleyes::p:D

Thanks for the info. I'd like to know if you know what the acutal frequencies are for those channels, or know a link where I find them. I want to see if my UHF only antenna can receive them. It covers (460-890Mhz).

What do analog 7, 9, 11 & 13 look like on your antenna? Some UHF antennas seem to do ok for 9-13, but 7 is a problem for 4221 (4-bay) class bow-ties and smaller.

I have a 4228 in my attic that does ok for 7-13, but I have a YA1713 up there as well.

I have a 4220 at the office and added in a pair of rabbit ears for 7-13, but 7 still isn't up to par. I really don't think VHF is a great idea for the LA area, since the main problem with UHF (Line of Sight) is mitigated with Mt. Wilson. There's plenty of noise in 7-13 vs. UHF, but it's still less than 2-6.

who do i contact?:confused:TV stations, but they will probably not reply. :(

Most dramas have a real 5.1 mix, while most sitcoms are upmixed as part of the production or by the network. Easy way to tell: unplug the center channel of your surround sound setup and turn up the volume; if you can still hear the dialog, the mi isn't true 5.1.

Tribune purchased DD encoders for all of their stations (including KTLA) that are designed to upmix everything to 5.1, though apparently KTLA has some sort of alternate arrangement. Is the 5.1 light lit during the news?Yes, tonight's KTLA 10 PM news had 5.1. I just find it strange for news to use 5.1. It's not like we need audio from the news. :P

Tonight's Sarah Conners episode and its commercials started out in SD for about 15 minutes, then back to HD (actually saw pixel blocks transforming into HD)! What's up with FOX (KTTV for me) these days?Here we go again. Tonight's episode started out in HD for a few minutes, sixels to SD, a commercial break with a HD TV ad., then back to HD for the rest of the episode. Screen captures: http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/6786/s2e6kttv11hv3.jpg
...

Ugh. I wonder if this was a local issue or all west coast/regional again.

Ugh, is anybody experiencing wierd stuttering video movement on FOX OTA? I thought perhaps it was a cable issue on my hd channel, but flipped it to OTA and it is the same problem. You will notice it especially during commercials. I've also noticed a weird pulsating focus/out of focus picture during live sports games like NFL and playoff baseball.

KCET updated Form 387 filing:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=693824

I found this note of interest:

CTSC will begin testing under Section 73.1610 of the FCC’s rules during overnight hours on November 3, 2008.

If that section refers to overnight DTV testing on the analog channel, it would give us a chance to test post-transition operations (on 28) early. However, does this mean early AM on the 3rd or the 4th?

Anybody notice Taiwan-based programs on 18.8? Usually, the subchannel duplicates 18.1 & time-shifts some other shows in primetime. Today for a short period, I saw what looked to be a different subchannel with programs from Taiwan. One was a soap opera, and the other was a news digest show in English? As far as I know, those were not regular KSCI shows. So am I mistaken or, is 18.8 going to be a subchannel for Taiwan programming?

Mark your calendars: L.A. will conduct a 1-minute analog shut-off test on Dec 2:
http://cable360.net/ct/news/thewire/32236.html

For these upcoming channels I know that,

44.6 - IAVC who distributes shows from Taiwan channels TTV, CTV, and CTS starts Dec 1
56.3 - THIS-TV which will air MGM programs & starts Nov 1

but does anybody know what is 44.3 SkD-TV?

Howdy,
Not sure if there's a better place to post this, but since this relates to LA-OTA, I'll post here to see if anyone has any suggestions.

In the process of setting up my mom's digital-analog receiver box, I had realign the rooftop antenna. I have it pointed in the correct direction to get the major networks, and I'm getting them all (CBS, NBC, ABC, KTLA, MNT) except FOX and KCAL. According to antennaweb, all the major networks are in the same direction and distance, so does anyone know why I'm having trouble getting FOX and KCAL?

I'm wondering if it's because they're on a much higher or lower frequency than the other channels, or maybe their transmitters are just that much lower in power...

Anyway, any suggestions appreciated.

edit: I did have to put a CM7777 preamp and power supply inline to boost signal...

...In the process of setting up my mom's digital-analog receiver box, I had realign the rooftop antenna. I have it pointed in the correct direction to get the major networks, and I'm getting them all (CBS, NBC, ABC, KTLA, MNT) except FOX and KCAL. According to antennaweb, all the major networks are in the same direction and distance, so does anyone know why I'm having trouble getting FOX and KCAL?

I'm wondering if it's because they're on a much higher or lower frequency than the other channels, or maybe their transmitters are just that much lower in power...

Anyway, any suggestions appreciated.

edit: I did have to put a CM7777 preamp and power supply inline to boost signal...


Next to KCOP 13.1, KTTV FOX is the weakest station for most people, I beliieve. I can usually get it, but it is very weather-dependent and often drops out completely, especially during a Santa Ana condition. A few days ago, for example, I could not receive it at all, yet KSWB 69.1 (FOX in San Diego) about 150 mi away came in just fine! Part of the problem is that Mt. Wilson where all of these LA stations are located is just a lousy location for many of us, and that makes reception somewhat weather-dependent, since it is not quite line-of-sight.

I am puzzled that KCAL 9.1 is a problem for so many, since it is for me one of the strongest of all stations. If you want to know all the details on all of the stations, both here and across the US, Falcon_77 has drawn up an Excel spreadsheet with all of this information, and you can download it from a link he has on some of his posts here. By the way, what is MNT?

By the way, what is MNT?

My Network TV. KCOP.

- Trip

KCAL has gone out briefly a couple of times, but the rest of the time it has been a solid station. KCOP, KTTV and KABC are the worst. Right now, I'm getting some co-channel interference on KTTV/65. I can see a picture trying to lock when I put the TV onto analog mode for 65. It has disrupted my reception of the World Series on occasion, resulting in numerous audio drop-outs.

flashbacck, can you run a TVFool.com plot and post the results here? Unless you have obstructions, many parts of the LA area have signals that are too strong for a pre-amp like the 7777.

As for Mt. Wilson, those of us in Orange County are doing very well by it. However, some areas to the West of Mt. Wilson (e.g. Burbank) are in the shadow of the Verdugo Hills among others.

KCOP, KTTV and KABC are the worst.

Hi there

That's reassuring that it's a common issue. I'm receiving all 59 digital channels with a CM 4228 antenna in the attic in Fountain Valley, but had reception problems with digital KCOP, KTTV and KABC (and also TBN) when installing another 4228 in an attic in Lake Forrest. Some antenna repositioning finally got KTTV and KABC to come in okay. Guess I'll give up trying to tune in KCOP until February.

The interesting part was that this new ChannelMaster 4228 installation has good VHF-hi reception and VHF-lo was decent. Analog channel 2 had light snow, and 5 was watchable. Overall VHF reception with this "UHF" antenna was better than the powered indoor antenna previously in use.

Regards

is there ANYBODY...that can get KCAL 9 in HD in south orange county ( mission Viejo,, Laguna Niguel, Aliso viejo) through OTA? I'm getting quite desperate i tried to contact several people and i do not know much about technology. if you do, please contact me. I'm willing to pay to educate myself , but I'd like to replicate the exact situation if you get that channel.

P.s. I'm a total novice, so please do not get technical.

Thanks in advance for your support and help !!:)

KCAL 9 (43) has been a reliable station for me in South OC (Ladera Ranch). Is that the only station giving you problems? What antenna are you using?

I can get KCAL and most other channels, with a rabbit ear/loop combo in my window, though I have a CM4228 in the attic for reliability as re the weaker stations.

Note that CBS will be taking KCAL's spot on 43 next year, though they will be making some improvements. Still, it makes me wonder why they will not be using the tallest tower on Mt. Wilson (the KCBS tower) for post-transition ops.

Hi there

That's reassuring that it's a common issue. I'm receiving all 59 digital channels with a CM 4228 antenna in the attic in Fountain Valley, but had reception problems with digital KCOP, KTTV and KABC (and also TBN) when installing another 4228 in an attic in Lake Forrest. Some antenna repositioning finally got KTTV and KABC to come in okay. Guess I'll give up trying to tune in KCOP until February.

The interesting part was that this new ChannelMaster 4228 installation has good VHF-hi reception and VHF-lo was decent. Analog channel 2 had light snow, and 5 was watchable. Overall VHF reception with this "UHF" antenna was better than the powered indoor antenna previously in use.

Regards
Those stations are all at the high end of the UHF band and therefore have higher
coax & splitter losses and lower antenna gain in most antennas (incl CM-4228).

Good news is that all stations Ch52 and above have to relocate by Feb2009.
[And we're not so sure the towers are even trying to maximize power now....]

For these upcoming channels I know that,

44.6 - IAVC who distributes shows from Taiwan channels TTV, CTV, and CTS starts Dec 1
56.3 - THIS-TV which will air MGM programs & starts Nov 1

but does anybody know what is 44.3 SkD-TV?

Thanks for the heads up on THIS-TV. I am looking forward to trying out a sub-channel network since there really haven't been any out here besides the PBS and foreign language stations.

I hope someone is willing to broadcast the .2 network. We have so many independent stations out here. How come more of them aren't trying to maximize the revenue with a few additional sub-channels of programming? KCOP would be a prime candidate since it is independent and doesn't really show any sports programming I am aware of that would suffer from bandwidth loss. I want more movies!:D:D

but does anybody know what is 44.3 SkD-TV?

Not certain, but according to the data that Falcon_77 sent me, it claims the language is Korean.

- Trip

Hi there

That's reassuring that it's a common issue. I'm receiving all 59 digital channels with a CM 4228 antenna in the attic in Fountain Valley, but had reception problems with digital KCOP, KTTV and KABC (and also TBN) when installing another 4228 in an attic in Lake Forrest. Some antenna repositioning finally got KTTV and KABC to come in okay. Guess I'll give up trying to tune in KCOP until February.

The interesting part was that this new ChannelMaster 4228 installation has good VHF-hi reception and VHF-lo was decent. Analog channel 2 had light snow, and 5 was watchable. Overall VHF reception with this "UHF" antenna was better than the powered indoor antenna previously in use.

Regards


Interesting - I too live in Fountain Valley & have been considering a roof mount w/ 4221HD (not the 4228) -- Looks like I should get great results.

Bad idea. The 4228 has some amount of gain on high VHF, but the 4221 has none.

Not certain, but according to the data that Falcon_77 sent me, it claims the language is Korean.

- Trip

Silly me. SkD obviously must be something like South Korean Digital.

Thanks for the reply.

Anybody notice Taiwan-based programs on 18.8? Usually, the subchannel duplicates 18.1 & time-shifts some other shows in primetime. Today for a short period, I saw what looked to be a different subchannel with programs from Taiwan. One was a soap opera, and the other was a news digest show in English? As far as I know, those were not regular KSCI shows. So am I mistaken or, is 18.8 going to be a subchannel for Taiwan programming?My mom, who watches these, said that 18.8 will be 24/7 for TW stuff. I haven't seen it myself since I didn't rescan.

Hi there

That's reassuring that it's a common issue. I'm receiving all 59 digital channels with a CM 4228 antenna in the attic in Fountain Valley, but had reception problems with digital KCOP, KTTV and KABC (and also TBN) when installing another 4228 in an attic in Lake Forrest. Some antenna repositioning finally got KTTV and KABC to come in okay. Guess I'll give up trying to tune in KCOP until February.

The interesting part was that this new ChannelMaster 4228 installation has good VHF-hi reception and VHF-lo was decent. Analog channel 2 had light snow, and 5 was watchable. Overall VHF reception with this "UHF" antenna was better than the powered indoor antenna previously in use.

Regards

I put up my Channel-Master 4221 and all is perfect. I used a chimney mount with a 10 foot mast -- all TVFools DT channels(20+) are clear as a bell here in Fountain Valley, CA. I'm about 36 miles from the Los Angeles Mount Wilson transmitters. I get about a 90 on signal strength on all my channels using my Aquos ATSC tuner (37D90U w/ a 5th generation LG KGDT3393 ATSC chipset).

Thanks for all the help guys..

I put up my Channel-Master 4221 and all is perfect. I used a chimney mount with a 10 foot mast -- all TVFools DT channels(20+) are clear as a bell here in Fountain Valley, CA.

Hi there

You should also check the analog TV reception of the new antenna for channels 7, 9, 11 and 13. Those stations will be reverting back to their VHF assignments for digital transmission in February. That's the reason for coyoteaz's comment regarding antenna selection.

Regards

Hi there

You should also check the analog TV reception of the new antenna for channels 7, 9, 11 and 13. Those stations will be reverting back to their VHF assignments for digital transmission in February. That's the reason for coyoteaz's comment regarding antenna selection.

Regards


I was aware of this but no need for VHF analog as I have these same channels in HD via OTA as well as cable.

I was aware of this but no need for VHF analog as I have these same channels in HD via OTA as well as cable.
What I think he is saying is that after the digital transition in February, if you want to get 7, 9, 11, or 13 OTA, you will need VHF reception. A good way to test your ability to receive these channels right now is to check their analog counterparts now as they are occupying the frequency that the digtal channels will post-transition.

What I think he is saying is that after the digital transition in February, if you want to get 7, 9, 11, or 13 OTA, you will need VHF reception. A good way to test your ability to receive these channels right now is to check their analog counterparts now as they are occupying the frequency that the digtal channels will post-transition.

Even w/ my ChannelMaster 4221 I get analog 7,9,11 & 13; however, I have them skipped for the time being as their HD counterparts are infinitely better.

Even w/ my ChannelMaster 4221 I get analog 7,9,11 & 13; however, I have them skipped for the time being as their HD counterparts are infinitely better.
Ahh, as long as you can get them then you are golden for the transition.

I put up my Channel-Master 4221 and all is perfect. I used a chimney mount with a 10 foot mast -- all TVFools DT channels(20+) are clear as a bell here in Fountain Valley, CA.

Ah, but can you pick up the elusive KFLA-LD, Channel 8? ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KFLA-LD

It can be received in parts of OC when the stars align correctly and San Diego isn't stepping on it. It was more-or-less watchable at my pad in Tustin earlier today.

Ah, but can you pick up the elusive KFLA-LD, Channel 8? ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KFLA-LD

It can be received in parts of OC when the stars align correctly and San Diego isn't stepping on it. It was more-or-less watchable at my pad in Tustin earlier today.

Two of my sisters live in Irvine(Woodbridge), with antennas sitting in the rafters of their garages. They can both pick up KFLA & it's 3 subchannels. The kids like the old cartoons & one sister like watching the old classic movies on the sub channels. My bother-in-law watches the different sports shows on the main channel.

When conditions are right, KFLA-LD has been on the edge of reception, but most of the time I can only detect the faintest hint that there's something there. It looks like A-One has some interesting programming, however. I was able to pick it up in the desert on a local station (analog only).

Here is the coverage map for KFLA-LD:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=80&q=call%3dKFLA-LD

They have an application pending to expand coverage towards OC a bit (and towards the West), but KFMB 8 would probably disrupt it in some area. Now and then I can watch SD 8 and 10 from my house.

Ah, but can you pick up the elusive KFLA-LD, Channel 8? ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KFLA-LD

It can be received in parts of OC when the stars align correctly and San Diego isn't stepping on it. It was more-or-less watchable at my pad in Tustin earlier today.


Excellent comment - I was looking for a DIGITAL channel on the VHF band to pre-validate my VHF post 2/17/09 coverage -- looks like KFLA-LD is an excellent benchmark.

Looks like I'm going to add an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 & use AntennaDirect's Weatherproof combiner. This way I'll have UHF coverage with my CM4221 and VHF-Hi coverage with AntennaCraft's Yagi. This way I'll be assured coverage for 7,9, 11 & 13 and maybe w/ some luck 8.

Not certain, but according to the data that Falcon_77 sent me, it claims the language is Korean.

- Trip

From what I'm seeing right now, it is a Korean home shopping channel. See attached. Maybe it's just for this time slot...

Well, i could'nt figure out how to start a new thread My apoligies for posting this as a "quick reply"

Heres the problem that i'm having and hoping that someone can help.

For the past four nights I have lost the signal from every transmitter on mount Wilson and my dear wife is threating to switch from OTA to-OUCH- cable if she misses her "Dancing with the stars" one more time.

Daytime reception is perfect, but from approx 7PM until approx 8AM all reception goes away??

At 8AM all goes go back to normal.

My equipment is a roof mounted XG-91 antenna with CM-7777 pre amp

These are feeding my LG LST-4200 set top tuner & my Toshiba DR-550 dvd recorder with onboard digital tuner.

The bedroom analog TV is fed by a Weingard digital/analog convertor box.

I have no reception on any of these

My location is Wildomar cal. which is near Temecula.

Does anyone have an idea of what might be going on here? Thanks.

You have an excellent antenna and preamp. As a result you should get pretty much the best signal possible. You could try reaiming the antenna. Have someone looking at the TV signal strength at the TV while someone else is on the roof. Make sure your preamp's power inserter is closer to the antenna than the splitters.

A greater area of improvement is your signal splitters. You talk about all the TVs and recorders. As a result you must be splitting the antenna signal many times. As a test run the antenna straight to one TV. Also make sure you are using good cable. RG6 quad shield is best.

If running the cable straight to the TV using RG6 quad shield works good then you can experiment with better splitters and distribution amps.

Rick R

I LOVE THIS FORUM...

Ok I finally got OTA HD for my new tv to come in in Costa Mesa yesterday!

Have all the locals, which is whatI really wanted.

NOw I am hooked. Is there a TV listing that lists all the shows that are broadcast in HD? 5.1 ? I can't wait to watch CSI tonight.

Also I am a little scared of what will happen in Feb whent he switch occurs, my analogs don't come in so well, I hope I don't lose everything in Feb!! :(

You have an excellent antenna and preamp. As a result you should get pretty much the best signal possible. You could try reaiming the antenna. Have someone looking at the TV signal strength at the TV while someone else is on the roof. Make sure your preamp's power inserter is closer to the antenna than the splitters.

A greater area of improvement is your signal splitters. You talk about all the TVs and recorders. As a result you must be splitting the antenna signal many times. As a test run the antenna straight to one TV. Also make sure you are using good cable. RG6 quad shield is best.

If running the cable straight to the TV using RG6 quad shield works good then you can experiment with better splitters and distribution amps.

Rick R
Rick, thanks for the reply & I think you must be psychic.

Heres my exact setup: The XG-91 is mounted on my garage roof & from the antenna to the amp in the garage is approx 10 feet of coax. From the amp to the indoor splitter amp is approx 20 feet of 75 ohm flat cable.

I think your idea of upgrading to RG-8 is an xlnt one.

To eliminate the antiqated 75 ohm as the possible problem i'm going to borrow my neighbors portable tv & hook it and the weingard digital/analog tuner directly to the amp in the garage.

If that works I will be off to Radio Shack for some RG8

I did previously try your suggestion of connecting directly to the LST-4200, but no joy on that one.

I've also dialed in the direction of the antenna using the signal meter on the 4200, & no joy there either.

Thanks for the quick reply, & I will keep you posted.

Are there channel listing for OTA DTV channels in the Los ANgeles area? Obviously I know 2.1 is CBS etc, but some I don't know and the sub stations I defineately don't know, and I would also like to know what available and what I am missing.

Are there channel listing for OTA DTV channels in the Los ANgeles area? Obviously I know 2.1 is CBS etc, but some I don't know and the sub stations I defineately don't know, and I would also like to know what available and what I am missing.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=2

Click Expand All and it'll show all the subchannels.

For the sake of full disclosure, that is my website.

- Trip

That is EXACTLY what I was looking for! thanks! Good job!

I have a spreadsheet of the channels as well (also on Trip's site), see the link in my signature.

As respects your analog signals, how do 7-13 look? Don't worry about 2-6 as we don't need them for DTV (at least not locally). We will have 7,9,11 & 13 as of 2/18/09. Right now everything is UHF locally, except the elusive KFLA-LD (8).

Heres my exact setup: The XG-91 is mounted on my garage roof & from the antenna to the amp in the garage is approx 10 feet of coax. From the amp to the indoor splitter amp is approx 20 feet of 75 ohm flat cable.

Since it appears that ABC is a must in your household, do you have an upper VHF (7-13) antenna waiting in the wings, since ABC is going back to 7 next year? KCAL, KTTV and KCOP are also moving back to upper VHF.

What does your TVFool.com plot look like? Can you post it here?

Also, what happens to analog reception at those hours? If it is a regular problem, perhaps a street light or something is behaving very badly, though UHF doesn't usually suffer from noise problems. If you see a bunch of sparklies on your analog signals, it's may be time to track down the source with a portable AM radio.

Do you have Twin-Lead cabling or something like "low-loss" RG 59? RG 6 is recommended (RG 6 quad if you have ingress problems, which seems likely). I used to have some old "low-loss" cabling, but I tossed it as it was very poorly shielded.

87-XLT,

You need RG6 QUAD SHIELD. It is available at Lowes among other places. RG8 is 50 ohms. Actually RG11 is 75 ohms and is even better than RG6 quad shield which is 75 ohms but it is difficult to work with. It is also difficult to find and it is 1/2 inch diameter (as is RG8).

You need to have your preamp mounted on the antenna mast with a power inserter in the coax line in the house with no splitters in between. To test you should have no splitters at all.

Rick R

Well, i could'nt figure out how to start a new thread My apoligies for posting this as a "quick reply"

Heres the problem that i'm having and hoping that someone can help.

For the past four nights I have lost the signal from every transmitter on mount Wilson and my dear wife
is threating to switch from OTA to-OUCH- cable if she misses her "Dancing with the stars" one more time.

Daytime reception is perfect, but from approx 7PM until approx 8AM all reception goes away??

At 8AM all goes go back to normal.

My equipment is a roof mounted XG-91 antenna with CM-7777 pre amp

These are feeding my LG LST-4200 set top tuner & my Toshiba DR-550 dvd recorder with onboard digital tuner.

The bedroom analog TV is fed by a Weingard digital/analog convertor box.

I have no reception on any of these

My location is Wildomar cal. which is near Temecula.

Does anyone have an idea of what might be going on here? Thanks.
If you enter your location into www.tvfool.com you'll see that Ch12, Ch21 and Ch27
are only a few miles away. The last two could be desensitizing (overloading)
the CM-7777 Post-Feb2009, Ch12 may also cause problems receiving VHF.

W-G HDP-269 is a much better Preamp choice when there are nearby towers.

First of all you can check to see if either Ch21 or Ch27 has a night only schedule.

Temporarily try inserting a small amount of attenuation (e.g. 1 or 2 RF splitters at 4 dB each)
between the antenna and the CM-7777 and see if that improves your situation.
Intermod noise levels are reduced 12 or 24 dB (3 times the attenuation).

If the signal had gone away tonight I would have plugged the antenna into the neighbors TV which is now setup in my garage. Of course the signal was rock solid all this evening. I think the signal is somehow being degraded b-4 it hits my antenna & the garage TV probably wont work either.

My antenna setup worked fine until the first overnight signal loss about 10 months ago, since then i've lost the signal about 15 nights including 4 nights this week.

Falcon_77 thanks for your comments, and yes ABC is a must. Looks like I will need to add a weingard YA-6713 or similiar to get 7-13.

The analog also goes away. I know about the trick for testing a remote control with an AM radio, but i'm curious how you use it for checking for reception problems.

The only street lighting here are small pole lamps in everyones front yard. More for decoration.

Rick, I agree that i should be solid cable into the house I just wish crawling under this place wasn'nt such a pain in the butt.

holl_ands, I think you might be onto something with chnl 21 & 27
I'll see what I can find out about their scheduling. Thanks

Thanks again. I watched CSI with the wife last night. She said I really can't tell a difference. So I switched to the dish network feed. "OH yeah now I can tell"

Thanks again. I watched CSI with the wife last night. She said I really can't tell a difference. So I switched to the dish network feed. "OH yeah now I can tell"

I thought you were getting the HD OTA channels. It doesn't sound like it if DISH looks better than OTA. Are you using a converter box?

No you mis read. The OTA is WAY better than the dish. My wife just didn't tell the difference until i showed her!

holl_ands, I think you might be onto something with chnl 21 & 27


Looking at a general TVFool.com plot for Wildomar, the signals from Mt. Wilson may even be too strong for a 7777 in your area. If you can post a plot, we can look at it, or if your results are above -50dBm, then the 7777 may not be the right pre-amp for the job.

As for the AM radio test, you may find that a light pole is malfunctioning with it. I can hear loud buzzing on AM stations when I drive by some traffic signals. Street lights shouldn't normally cause this type of interference unless they have a problem. If you find an offending street light, you can try and have the city, etc., fix it.

You mentioned the analog signals go away. Completely? It takes quite a lot for analog signals to completely vanish. Perhaps your pre-amp is going out, but why only at night?

No you mis read. The OTA is WAY better than the dish. My wife just didn't tell the difference until i showed her!

Ah! ok. I feel better now. :D

It reminds me of all the HDTV's (even 1080p's) I've seen connected to SD cable boxes, stretching a 4:3 picture to 16:9. If only they knew that free HD was just a rabbit ear/loop away (in many cases).

Just a quick comment - the older LG tuner boxes like the 4200 are very persnickety when it comes to overloading. Definitely try it without the amp, or at least with attenuators.

Well this little mystery is solved. I had to wait until tonight for the signal to drop out again. I unplugged the house feed from the CM7777 in the garage & plugged the garage TV in it's place. Much to my surprise the TV worked fine.

The problem was with the 300 ohm/75 ohm transformer. The sheet metal that surrounds the little pin in the center had spread open & was losing contact with the CM7777 post.

Thanks again to all who replied, I do appreciate the help.

KTLA/CW 5.1 went off for me yesterday. not on channel 31 either.

5.1 shows 80% "signal" still but nothing.

anyone else having issues with KTLA?

KTLA/CW 5.1 went off for me yesterday. not on channel 31 either.

5.1 shows 80% "signal" still but nothing.

anyone else having issues with KTLA?
On air for me in Anaheim

anyone else having issues with KTLA?

The mapping is broken for me right now. It's mapping to 31.3, but not 5.1.

KTLA/CW 5.1 went off for me yesterday. not on channel 31 either.

5.1 shows 80% "signal" still but nothing.

anyone else having issues with KTLA?

I live in Torrance and KTLA does not come in for me either. It was working at the beginning of the week but not nothing. I guess I should be more specific, one TV gets no signal at all, using one of the Zenith digital converter boxes, and the other TV I have is a Sony Vega with digital and analog tuners. The Sony TV gets audio only.:confused:

I have notice it comes and goes sporadically.

thanks...

also missing KTLA 5.1 here in west LA for the last 3 days... did the fire destroy antennas?!?!?!

new question. Now have OTA hd. I have it cabled directly to the tv, which forced me to unplug...the vcr (yes we still use it, mainly for kids shows) Until I get a HD dvd player I don't have enough inputs to connect the vcr. Can I run the OTA through the vcr and from vcr to tv? Will it degrade the signal?

samsung ln40a550

also missing KTLA 5.1 here in west LA for the last 3 days... did the fire destroy antennas?!?!?!

KTLA has been and is on the air, but they're incorrectly mapped. Turn to channel 31-3, or do a channel rescan.

I too am missing OTA KTLA in HD. When I key in channel 31, the display is blank with no sound and channel info shows "DTV Air 31-0"; signal strength is full. If I key in 31-0 the channel info shows "Air 31" with white noise, i.e., a snowy screen and "Weak or No Signal" displayed . If I key in 31-3 the TV will not accept that entry and remains on the current channel. A channel scan only picks up analog 5. It appears different TVs are handling this situation differently.

TV is a Samsung LNT3242HX.

I have e-mailed KTLA, but no response yet. I ran an updated TSR report to see what was wrong (see attached). I have noticed the following has changed, but don't know if the problem is that simple.

Old:

Channel 3
Service Name: KTLA-DT
TSID: 293 (0x0125) NTSC: 05 ATSC: 31 CA LOS ANGELES
Channel Number: 5.1
Carrier Frequency: 0
Modulation Mode: ATSC (8 VSB)
Source ID: 1
Descriptor: ATSC Service Location Descriptor
Service Location Descriptor:
PCR PID 0x0031
Stream Type 0x02 (MPEG-2 Video) ESPID = 0x0031 Language =
Stream Type 0x81 (AC-3 Audio) ESPID = 0x0034 Language = eng
Stream Type 0x81 (AC-3 Audio) ESPID = 0x0035 Language = spa

New:

Channel 3
Service Name: KTLA-DT
TSID: 293 (0x0125) NTSC: 05 ATSC: 31 CA LOS ANGELES
Channel Number: 5.1
Carrier Frequency: 572310000
Modulation Mode: ATSC (8 VSB)
Source ID: 3
Descriptor: ATSC Extended Channel Name Descriptor
Extended Channel Name: KTLA Digital Television, English
Descriptor: ATSC Service Location Descriptor
Service Location Descriptor:
PCR PID 0x0031
Stream Type 0x02 (MPEG-2 Video) ESPID = 0x0031 Language = eng
Stream Type 0x81 (AC-3 Audio) ESPID = 0x0034 Language = eng
Stream Type 0x81 (AC-3 Audio) ESPID = 0x0035 Language = spa

I too am missing OTA KTLA in HD. When I key in channel 31, the display is blank with no sound and channel info shows "DTV Air 31-0"; signal strength is full. If I key in 31-0 the channel info shows "Air 31" with white noise, i.e., a snowy screen and "Weak or No Signal" displayed . If I key in 31-3 the TV will not accept that entry and remains on the current channel. A channel scan only picks up analog 5. It appears different TVs are handling this situation differently.

TV is a Samsung LNT3242HX.

Try tuning to 30 or 34 and channel-up or channel-down to it.

Also try 31-1. I have a converter box that's calling it that.

Im in ur channel mapping, killing ur ratings. :D

I am having the same problem with KTLA. I have a Dish 622 that will not scan KTLA no matter what I do, even though it sees that there is a signal strength 90 there. My older Polaroid TV with ATSC tuner won't scan it either, but my Sony XBR4 can tune it just fine. What is KTLA doing????

KTLA has been and is on the air, but they're incorrectly mapped. Turn to channel 31-3, or do a channel rescan.

thanks to all who have given advice.

I tried the channel rescan but to no avail. I still get nothing on one tv with the converter box, and the Sony TV still gets audio only, unless I tune into the analog channel 5 and then it looks kinda fuzzy like ants are crawling all over the screen, but it works for now.

All other channels come in just fine, its just channel 5.1 that does not show up.
HHHHMMMM, I will have to go up and check the antenna and maybe Ill try a channel master pre-amp. Im still floatin around some possibilities.

I will let everyone know if I have any success.

Adding a preamp will not help in any way. The signal is still there, just as strong as it ever was. The problem seems to be with the way they are encoding the signal. My new Sony TV can decode it just fine, but my Dish 622 and 2 year old Polaroid set can't scan it. They are doing something funky with the PSIP.

I checked KTLA channel 5 digital this morning and got no signal. I assumed that my antenna had been smashed by the winds. Thanks for the info I will check other channels befor I climb on my roof. Thankfully Dish Network now had KTLA locals in HD.

Rick R

I am really puzzled regarding all of this discussion about KTLA-DT 5.1 and its signal strength. It has always been strong here whenever I have checked it on both of my digital sets. Rightr now it is fluctuating between 80% and 100% here in Granada Hills.

I was in a friends boat yesterday, a few miles off Newport. The waters were very calm, so we decided to hook up his new Insignia converter box. When we scanned in the channels, 31-3 showed up. I assumed it was a San Diego station, as we picked up channels 10 & 69, along with the LA stations. I didn't notice if channel 5 was there, but after reading this, channel 5 must be what we saw as channel 31-3. I thought it was strange that there was no channel 31-1 or 31-2.

I was in a friends boat yesterday, a few miles off Newport. The waters were very calm, so we decided to hook up his new Insignia converter box. When we scanned in the channels, 31-3 showed up. I assumed it was a San Diego station, as we picked up channels 10 & 69, along with the LA stations. I didn't notice if channel 5 was there, but after reading this, channel 5 must be what we saw as channel 31-3. I thought it was strange that there was no channel 31-1 or 31-2.


It might be an idiosycracy of the box itself. I remember that my old Toshiba box used to do things like that sometimes. You are right, there should only be a 31.1.

KTLA has been and is on the air, but they're incorrectly mapped. Turn to channel 31-3, or do a channel rescan.

Yeah, something has been out of whack with channel 5.1.
I did a rescan with my winegard RC-DT09 convertor box the day before yesterday, & yesterday & 5.1 would not lock in.

Just now tried it again & it finally did lock in.

I'm in Wildomar (near Lake Elsinore)

Well this little mystery is solved. I had to wait until tonight for the signal to drop out again. I unplugged the house feed from the CM7777 in the garage & plugged the garage TV in it's place. Much to my surprise the TV worked fine.

The problem was with the 300 ohm/75 ohm transformer. The sheet metal that surrounds the little pin in the center had spread open & was losing contact with the CM7777 post.

Thanks again to all who replied, I do appreciate the help.

Well heres an update & an explanation of what the problem realy was.

When the signal went away I checked for voltage at the pre amp (CM7777) and there was none.

Reonnect the coax to the pre amp & the TV would work again??????

Rechecked voltage at the pre amp & now saw 21 volts DC.

The coax had an intermittant open in it & apparently reconnecting the coax to the pre amp would cause a voltage spike that would temporarily seal up the open.

Replaced the coax with a 12 foot length of RG 6 & problem solved.

So if any of you guys with a pre amp ever lose the signal from everything on mount wilson, check your pre amp voltage.

"I checked KTLA channel 5 digital this morning and got no signal. I assumed that my antenna had been smashed by the winds. Thanks for the info I will check other channels befor I climb on my roof. Thankfully Dish Network now had KTLA locals in HD."


Yeah I lost mine too, in Costa Mesa...

Adding a preamp will not help in any way. The signal is still there, just as strong as it ever was. The problem seems to be with the way they are encoding the signal. My new Sony TV can decode it just fine, but my Dish 622 and 2 year old Polaroid set can't scan it. They are doing something funky with the PSIP.

Thanks for the info about the preamp, Your right, i have been lookin at the signal strength for all of the channels and its in the 80-90% range so I prolly don't need it.

I took narkspuds advice again and rescanned all of the channels, and low and behold everything popped up again. I did also try channel 31.1 and channel 5 pops up there also. Channel 31 would have never occurred to me to be linked with channel 5.

I'm still tryin to get use to all of the additional channels that are on the air now. I remember when there were just 7 channels to choose from and everything above channel 13 was in a different language or didn't come in at all.

I was reading another post about how the FCC wants to use channel 5 for audio only broadcasts and emergency stuff, can anyone confirm this?

I want to thank everyone for their input and help.

I'm not 100% sure on this but I think all the current VHF low channels (2-6) are going to be reassigned to some other service. The VHF high channels (7-13) will still be used for broadcast TV service, changing over to digital in February. I know that the current channels 7, 9, 11, and 13 in Los Angeles will change over from analog to digital on their VHF assignments, while channels 2, 4, and 5 are staying with their current digital UHF channels. I wonder what channel number they will use in their station IDs and such after the change?

It might be an idiosycracy of the box itself. I remember that my old Toshiba box used to do things like that sometimes. You are right, there should only be a 31.1.

If there's no PSIP, some boxes just list the subchannels in the order it finds them (31-1), but others use the station's "Program Number" in its bitstream to assign it (31-3). Neither one is right or wrong, really...

I was reading another post about how the FCC wants to use channel 5 for audio only broadcasts and emergency stuff, can anyone confirm this?

There are plenty of people who want it to happen, but there's nothing from the FCC about it.

I'm not 100% sure on this but I think all the current VHF low channels (2-6) are going to be reassigned to some other service.

It could happen in the future, but not yet.

I wonder what channel number they will use in their station IDs and such after the change?

The analog channel number.

- Trip

Re: KTLA showing up on 31.1 or 31.3

Transport streams use PIDs to identify the different audio and video streams within. Old equipment automatically assigned PIDs based on the program number: program 1 had 0x11 for video, 0x14 for audio; program 2 had 0x21 for video, 0x24 for audio; and so forth. A couple years ago, the FCC decided that no one could use PIDs less than 0x30 for normal streams. Most equipment allows for the use of configurable PIDs, so most stations just changed the PIDs to 0x31 for video and 0x34 for audio for program 1, 0x41 and 0x44 for program 2, etc. Apparently, KTLA is using older equipment, so instead of being able to change program 1 to use different PIDs, they have to use use program 3 to accomplish the change in PIDs.

All stations also provide metadata in the stream known as PSIP. Among other things, PSIP contains remapping information which tells your tuner to display program 3 on channel 31 as 5.1. If the PSIP generator conks out, your tuner doesn't know where to put it, so it either goes to 31.3 if the tuner follows the programs exactly, or 31.1 if it assigns sequentially.

KTLA came back on today for me, 5.1

Earlier this year, FCC issued a Report & Order and Third Notice of Proposed Rulemaking
(NPRM) with a catch-all of various proposals, including asking for comments re reallocating
CH5 and/or CH6 to FM Band:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-217A1.pdf
See para 100 on pg35.

Here is the Mullaney proposal, citing a perceived shortage of FM spectrum:
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6519744377
[And apparently the terrorists win if we don't......good job impressing the Commission....]

Reallocation idea was discussed in 2001/2002, see fol. NAB comments AGAINST:
https://www.nab.org/AM/AMTemplate.cfm?template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=4128

And 29Aug2008 collective comments FOR:
http://www.nfcb.org/PDF/Channel5-6_Comments.pdf

It also was discussed a year ago in fol. AVS thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12287734#post12287734

I wouldn't expect any real YEA/NAY considerations until sometime after Feb2009.....

FYI: Post-Feb2009, there are 16 CH2-4, 15 CH5 and only 8 CH6 DTV stations left:
http://www.rabbitears.info/ss/
Click on "By-Channel". So only a very few stations are affected.
And since CH6 reception can be adversely affected by nearby FM stations,
they already have an incentive to change...if someone else is picking up the bill...

PS: Since the CH6 audio carrier is right up against lower FM band edge,
enabling an FM Band filter in a Preamp doesn't provide much attenuation
against lower FM frequency assignments...
Of course, if FM takes over CH6, then CH5 will suffer the same problem.
Fortunately, there is a gap between CH4 and CH5, hence proposal for both CH5 & 6.

The FCC rejected the Mullaney proposal sometime over the summer, as I recall...

- Trip

If there's no PSIP, some boxes just list the subchannels in the order it finds them (31-1), but others use the station's "Program Number" in its bitstream to assign it (31-3). Neither one is right or wrong, really...


Right, however the Toshiba would show the channel twice, so that, for example, KTLA would show up both as 31-1 and 5-1. You could add new stations without rescanning by adding the actual channel number, i.e., 31-1. But what I was referring to above was something entirely different, namely the apperarance of spurious subchannel numbers, like the 31-2 or 31-3 mentioned earlier.

The FCC rejected the Mullaney proposal sometime over the summer, as I recall...
- Trip
Or did they decide NOT to decide???? Do you have a citation?
BTW: I didn't find an announcement in FCC Media Division Headlines
or Headlines Archive other than extending comment date to July2008....

Recent articles in Radio World Newspaper consider it an open issue:
http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0048/t.16138.html
http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0044/t.15897.html
http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0052/t.15575.html

Or did they decide NOT to decide???? Do you have a citation?
BTW: I didn't find an announcement in FCC Media Division Headlines
or Headlines Archive other than extending comment date to July2008....

Recent articles in Radio World Newspaper consider it an open issue:
http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0048/t.16138.html
http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0044/t.15897.html
http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0052/t.15575.html

Completely, 100% denied. Here's the relevant document:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-08-72A1.pdf

Page 16.

"Likewise, we also will not reallocate TV channels 5 or 6 for use by FM radio broadcasting stations because these channels must continue to be available for use by stations in the television broadcasting service. In this regard, we stand by our now well-established determination that the additional opportunities for increasing FM noncommercial coverage do not outweigh the costs of eliminating channel 6 from TV service. For these reasons and various others we have expressed in our rulemakings on these issues, we deny the petitioners’ requests that we reallocate one or more TV channels to the FM radio broadcasting service."

- Trip

While the FCC denied it earlier this year, I wouldn't be surprised to see the issue return.

Do 8 full-power TV stations across the entire country make up for thousands of radio stations that could be located there? Also, since 6 is uncharted waters for DTV and probably won't work out that well, I would expect additional moves off of 6. So, the issue rests with LP stations, but I doubt they will find any success in Low-VHF (for DTV) when most full power stations have not.

LA has an LP station (of sorts) on 6, but it doesn't have any significant programming I've seen. It seems to be more of a poster board for the radio station.

5 would be more difficult to re-allocate, with the count increasing to 16 stations now. However, if DTV causes problems to adjacent FM radio, then perhaps it would follow some day.

I don't think that Low-VHF issues have come to light in the general sense for DTV, though that should change once the remaining analog viewers are converted. Lone upper VHF stations have enough problems. Lone Low-VHF stations in a market will take this to a whole new level.

channels 2, 4, and 5 are staying with their current digital UHF channels.

Not exactly. 2 is taking over 9's digital home at 43, when 9 moves to 9.

2 is currently on 60, which, as you know, is being decommissioned as a TV channel.

(Who'd'a ever thought there would come a time when those two sentences *weren't* confusing?)

Although the original Mulanney proposal might have been denied in Mar2008, clearly the similar,
yet different, BMC proposal for Low Power FM (LPFM) on CH5 and/or CH6 seems to have a life
of it's own under Diversity of Ownership.....and huge unmet demand for channels....

Shared use of CH5 and/or CH6 spectrum may be key for BMC winning approval....
Esp. with only eight CH6 stations nationwide....indeed in all of California, there are only
TWO Lo-VHF stations: CH3 in Eureka and CH6 in Tijuana (San Diego's CW network).

On the other hand, ATSC-M/H could carry a plethora of audio channels, muxed on top
of any of several existing DTV stations....

KTLA came back for me the next day. All is fine now. Antenna was not damaged significantly.

Rick R

KTLA has been and is on the air, but they're incorrectly mapped. Turn to channel 31-3, or do a channel rescan.

Finally looked at channel 31-3 because I wasn't getting KTLA either. When I went to 31-3, KTLA flashed on for a split second, then the TV changed to channel 5-1. Now have KTLA where it should be.

THANKS

KNBC DTS Analysis

With the recent adoption of DTS rules (Distributed Transmission Systems) by the FCC, I wanted to see how this could apply in the LA area. Attached is my 1st attempt to "build" a DTS, for KNBC in this case. Also attached is the current single transmitter coverage area plot.

The DTS plot utilizes the following:

Directional antenna patterns for each site (using a 90 degree cardioid pattern - very little power to the rear)

Main: KNBC - 100kW (160m/D)

DTS (all directional at 30m AGL):

Palmdale - 15kW
KHIZ site (Victorville) - 15kW
San Clemente - 15kW
KVMD site - 15kW
Ventura - 15kW
KVCR site - 15kW
Simi Valley - 15kW
Santa Clarita - 15kW

The 80 mile contour line is roughly the extent of the service area.

The actual KNBC facility (665kW) is directional and favors the NE, which I have not understood as UHF does not "bend" very well at all over the mountains. If nothing else, KNBC and other stations should consider a DTS site for at least Lancaster/Palmdale. I have to believe this will be more cost effective than trying to push signals through the mountains.

Any comments are welcome.

Looking at the plots, Ventura should be moved and perhaps the Simi Valley DTS should be changed to a peanut pattern. The San Clemente DTS is not very effective at all.

Once again, this is a theoretical plot as I attempt to figure out how stations may elect to implement DTS.

Falcon, what software did you use to produce those images?

Falcon, what software did you use to produce those images?

Radio Mobile:

http://www.cplus.org/rmw/english1.html

Here is a tutorial for it:

http://www.pizon.org/radio-mobile-tutorial/index.html

BTW: Radio-Mobile is a FREE download....

Here's some setup info to get you going:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/6255.html#POST27302
Since old threads lose their attachments, see below for socal.net, city.dat and radio.sys files.
It includes most of the (current, not 2009) major L.A. and S.D. stations.
Unzip into R-M program folder. OPEN socal.net using File/OpenNetworks.
[Any text editor can view/edit city.dat or use R-M to edit within File/UnitProperties.]

I rapidly ran out of room to define any more Receive Antenna and Transmit Systems,
so best way to add new transmitters is to use the 1 MW ERP value and then insert
LINE LOSS (dB) until you match the actual ERP.

Perhaps Falcon_77 has an alternative.....if not, I'll put it on my TODO list...

=====================================
Changing range scale is rather unusual. Under File/MapProperties, change SIZE/HEIGHT
to 250 km to see all of L.A./S.D./Baja with a normal working range of 80-180 km.
Set cursor location, left click and then UseCursorPosition to recenter map.

Initially set SIZE(PIXEL) to screen resolution (for example 1280x1024) and then
change it until it fills the available area without a side scrolling bar.
I haven't done this for awhile...probably should initially keep close to monitor's
aspect ratio....and if you want...stretch to fit the last dimension.

=====================================
Set Options/Internet so R-M auto downloads missing (low rez SRTM-3) terrain files
to a "download" folder (and cancel alert boxes when it can't find open water files).
So initially, there should no need to download terrain files....

For hi-rez terrain with fast response, R-M webpage has link to terrain databases.
Set up Options/ElevationData to "Extract elevation data directly from database"
and link to downloaded terrain data folder(s). You can start with 1-arcsecond (SRTM-1):
http://www.cplus.org/rmw/dataen.html
and try to get higher rez BIL data and BILtoSRTM converter working later....if at all.
By using different folders for each file type, you can select which to use....

====================================
In File/PictureProperties/Rainbow/Color you can "LOAD" optional <color socal absolute.data>.
Be sure to also select ABSOLUTE vice RELATIVE. This helps to see low level terrain.

RELATIVE automatically assigns colors from highest on the map to lowest (below sealevel),
resulting in weird colors for the ocean. To fix it, change the LEVEL "2" elevation to 5 meters.
Seems I have to redo this every time I start R-M...so I stick to ABSOLUTE.

I am seeing some new interference on KABC analog 7 tonight that I have not seen before. I have posted screen caps of it on the following post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15160985#post15160985

Is anyone else seeing new interference on 7 tonight? Last night, all the VHF channels were a mess due to the thunderstorms. I don't imagine they will work well next year during similar events.

More info re Analog Shutdown "Preview" on Dec 2:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/69426

I am seeing some new interference on KABC analog 7 tonight that I have not seen before. I have posted screen caps of it on the following post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15160985#post15160985

Is anyone else seeing new interference on 7 tonight? Last night, all the VHF channels were a mess due to the thunderstorms. I don't imagine they will work well next year during similar events.
That is known as a herringbone pattern, and I would guess it was probably caused by interference from KFMB-DT from San Diego. Storms stir up the atmosphere and cause all kinds of bouncing signals. As long as it goes away once the weather clears up, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

That is known as a herringbone pattern, and I would guess it was probably caused by interference from KFMB-DT from San Diego. Storms stir up the atmosphere and cause all kinds of bouncing signals. As long as it goes away once the weather clears up, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Thanks. While the quality of analog 7 is still poor this morning, that interference no longer appears. Perhaps it was from KFMB. I should have thought to check its DTV signal last night. I don't see any trace of it right now when trying to add DTV 7.

Want to thank Falcon_77 for the post on DTS. Looks like the lower part of Ventura Avenue (33 freeway going to Ojai) won't pick up KNBC, but the higher part towards Ojai will.

Presently getting KEYT ABC 3.1 HD, 3.2 SD, LATV, KTSB, KLCS. No Los Angeles stations. After the transition day will be trying a Winegard GS 2200 with 10 inline signal amplifier to get up to 25 db and see what happens.

Will also continue to get two low power analog repeaters: KIMG 23 RTN, and KTBN 45 TBN.

Would be interested in DTS for all LA Stations that reach the 33 freeway and might have some kind of signal this far out from Mount Wilson.

Has there been any research or field studies as to how digital signals react around a hill. Actually mapping out points where the signal is detected. Not one specific location but a range of locations. How it is seen close to the hill. From both sides. Far back. At what point is one edge signals picked up. Two edge. A case study. Again, not one persons house, or what they've done, but an entire area or region. And a report is then issued showing how on the ground the digital signal is received for that region. So at least a couple square miles of area and a hill a certain distance from the transmitting station.

Has there been any research or field studies as to how digital signals react around a hill.

Hi there

I would expect a "digital" TV signal to refract in the same manner as an analog TV signal of the same frequency. The TV signal is labeled "digital" or "analog" because of the modulated information that is transmitted, i.e. the content or payload. The RF signal itself is not "digital". The tuned RF (analog) signal has to be demodulated (a variation of analog-to-digital conversion) to extract the digital information.

Regards

Have you checked out the new TV Fool plots? If you click on a station, it will provide more info and a terrain view to your location. It is in 2D, but I don't know of any software that will represent it in 3D if that is what you are looking for.

Correct looking for three dimensional. That would be a huge step up. You could then see where you are at, see the hill in your way, and see the signal go over the ridge, then possibly look to see where the signal hits the lower levels due to refraction. Hopefully that will be the next step in the digital television transition. The signals don't bounce so, you have to use refracted signals only.

Thanks also for the explanation about the definition between analog and digital. If that is true then there is hope for the Ventura Avenue area (70 miles and a hill). Of the small handfull of residents that have antennas they are either not hooked up, or haven't made the transition.

So, in conclusion, radio mobile might help. Not ready to tackle that yet. Will try to upload later updated TV fool.

Hello. I know in other cities, TV stations do quick tests with their digital feeds and analog shutdowns. Will there be any for L.A. area?

Hello. I know in other cities, TV stations do quick tests with their digital feeds and analog shutdowns. Will there be any for L.A. area?
Check post #3966. ;) Eight posts above yours.

Rudy

Can anyone confirm if Legend of the Seeker has been shown in HD on KTLA-HD the past two weeks? I don't watch OTA, but I want to verify this is the case and it's not my cable co's fault before I start hassling KTLA about it :) Thanks!

Can anyone confirm if Legend of the Seeker has been shown in HD on KTLA-HD the past two weeks?

I don't know about last week, but I can tell you that many stations (including WGN) did not air this week's episode in HD. In doing a little digging, seems to have been a problem with the feed from the source. So at least as far as this weekend goes, KTLA is not to blame.

Okay, I will not pester KTLA then. I hope whoever controls this gets their act together soon. Thanks for the information.

Hello. I know in other cities, TV stations do quick tests with their digital feeds and analog shutdowns. Will there be any for L.A. area?

As noted above, it is on Tuesday.

Los Angeles.......Dec. 2, 5:28-5:30 p.m. and (KCAL only) 9:28-9:30 p.m.

Will the stations advise viewers of the upcoming tests or just wait and see who is watching? ~5:30pm doesn't sound like a busy time for viewing since most are stuck in traffic at that hour.

Correct looking for three dimensional. That would be a huge step up. You could then see where you are at, see the hill in your way, and see the signal go over the ridge, then possibly look to see where the signal hits the lower levels due to refraction. Hopefully that will be the next step in the digital television transition. The signals don't bounce so, you have to use refracted signals only.

Thanks also for the explanation about the definition between analog and digital. If that is true then there is hope for the Ventura Avenue area (70 miles and a hill). Of the small handfull of residents that have antennas they are either not hooked up, or haven't made the transition.

So, in conclusion, radio mobile might help. Not ready to tackle that yet. Will try to upload later updated TV fool.
www.tvfool.com has an on-line coverage map utility, but it is very lo-rez.
You can download (78.3 MB via B*tT*rrent only) coverage maps for L.A. area,
then double click on the *.kmz file to load into GoogleEarth for display.
[GoogleEarth TILT and ROTATE controls are now SHIFT-SCROOL and CNTL-SCROOL.]

Unfortunately, they don't have the Post-Feb2009 maps up yet, so best guess
for upcoming digital coverage for Ch7-13 is to use the Analog station.
UHF Digital stations won't change very much Post-Feb2009, and Ch2-6 mostly go away.

The fol. Analog KCAL (Ch9) coverage map doesn't vary very much from UHF DTVs.
N. Ventura Ave is in a dead zone.....presuming linear propagation lines.
I also included a view of School Canyon Rd looking toward Mt Wilson showing how
the stronger (green) signals hit the peaks and decrease (blue to purple) on the "backside".

As I've said before, your best bet is to aim at the "green" hot spot on the hill towards the NW,
using the "multipath" reflection (which is not modeled in either TVFool or Radio-Mobile).

Will the stations advise viewers of the upcoming tests or just wait and see who is watching? ~5:30pm doesn't sound like a busy time for viewing since most are stuck in traffic at that hour.

You wouldn't want the test to interfere with actual viewership, would you? Priorities, man, priorities! :D

Thanks. Will try looking for multipath from the NW. Will be around 15 then later plus 25db. Also, going to go ground level towards the side of the hill towards the ocean. Puts 2 edge at a better angle.

Results so far towards Santa Barbara: (plus 10db)
Signal Quality Signal Strength
KEYT-DT 3.1 82-95 10-20 ABC
KEYT 3.2 87-93 10-20 MyRTN
KPMR-DT 38.1 100 73
KTSB-DT 38.2 100 86-93
KJLA-DT 57.1 71 10 Infomercial
57.2 61-66 10 LATV
KVMD-DT 57.3 63 10 Infomercial

Going to keep present setup. While experimenting with LA Stations. At least this area is not completely dark.

Towards Los Angeles am mainly interested in digital stations: KCAL 9, KNBC, KABC, FOX, the main networks. Would be happy with one or two, then work on it some more.

Has there been any research or field studies as to how digital signals react around a hill. Actually mapping out points where the signal is detected. Not one specific location but a range of locations. How it is seen close to the hill. From both sides. Far back. At what point is one edge signals picked up. Two edge. A case study. Again, not one persons house, or what they've done, but an entire area or region. And a report is then issued showing how on the ground the digital signal is received for that region. So at least a couple square miles of area and a hill a certain distance from the transmitting station.

I don't know of studies but where I live in eastern Simi Valley 2714' Rocky Peak is directly between Mt Wilson an my home. It causes difficult OTA reception. In the western part of Simi Valley where they are farther from Rocky Peak reception from Mt Wilson is better.

Also I have trouble with getting reception both directly over Rocky Peak and around Rocky Peak resulting in multipath. If I aim my antenna so I only get one of these reception is better.

Rick R

KNBC DTS Analysis

Thanks Falcon_77! Interesting stuff.

Looking at the plots, Ventura should be moved and perhaps the Simi Valley DTS should be changed to a peanut pattern. The San Clemente DTS is not very effective at all.

To join in the fun, here's some information that may or may not help you pick out some of your DTx sites.

This is a "reverse" coverage map analysis. It is generated by taking tens of thousands of population centroids (derived from US Census Bureau data) and treating them as signal sources. The coverage is then simulated and the aggregate "coverage" at every point is weighted and summed according to the population count of each contributing population cluster.

The resulting map is a sort of "population reach" heat map. That is, if you were to place a transmitter at any of the locations on the map, the color code will give you an estimate of how much population will be reached by your signal.

The color coding for this map ranges from "warm" colors (good coverage) to "cool" colors (poor coverage) in the following order:

white (best)
red
orange
yellow
green
cyan
blue
violet (worst)
no color (no coverage)

You really need Google Earth to zoom in and see the detail. The KMZ file is too big to be posted here, so I've made a copy available here (http://home.comcast.net/~andy.s.lee/public/Los Angeles - Reverse Coverage.kmz) (3.2 MB). Please note that specific assumptions were made regarding ERP, transmit frequency, receiver sensitivity, antenna height, and other important factors in order to generate this map. The appearance of the map would certainly change if different assumptions are used, but this example should give you a decent feel for the relative merits of different locations on the map.

For the case of the Ventura site, I think you'll get better coverage from a location like Sandstone Peak. It seems to have a good vantage point to cover both Ventura and Thousand Oaks.

For the case of San Clemente, the terrain has too many ups and downs, so it looks like the only way to get effective coverage in all of the valley locations is with a high altitude site like Santiago Peak.

Of course, in the real world, site selection is more than just trying to maximize coverage. Cost of site acquisition, zoning, permitting, construction, communications downlink, operations, and maintenance will also come into play. However, this does give you some measure of bang-for-the-buck and is a fun hypothetical exercise in any case.

Best regards,
Andy

Strange just started a couple of days ago only on KTTV it will be fine if its a live event like news or a football game but as soon as it goes to commercial or say a move it starts stuttering . Only on KTTV Fox no other ch in hd .

Check post #3966. ;) Eight posts above yours.

RudyWhoops and thanks. :)

You wouldn't want the test to interfere with actual viewership, would you? Priorities, man, priorities! :D

I didn't see anything on the morning news about the "soft" analog shutdown tonight or anything in the paper or anything on any of the websites. Perhaps the only ones to know about it in advance are the ones that don't need it.

I'm assuming it's still going to take place? :confused:

Perhaps a few people will be watching despite the local media's best attempts to hide it.

Edit: KCBS/KCAL advised that they have been airing notices of the tests for the past 4 days.

Well 2 minutes wasn't even enough time for me to take screen caps of each station, but many of them did not participate, such as the Fox owned stations (11 & 13). Screen caps of a few example messages are attached, but at least one station KCET (I think just cut to snow). I should have taken these with the On Air GT as it identifies the channel #. Only KLCS had a screen crawl explaining that the test was going to air. KNBC spent a few minutes on it during the newscast, but I was unable to check the Low-VHF analog stations from work.

I will check out the KCAL testing later tonight.

KABC had a countdown going up to the test. I THINK I caught a glimpse of an explanatory crawl on KPXN right before the test. Yes, I was changing channels madly. I have no life. What can I say?

KTLA did not participate. Neither did most of the Spanish language channels (oh GREAT), or KDOC. I don't think I noticed if KOCE did or not.

Both KNBC and KABC's on-air talent completely whiffed the timing, with the test breaking in on them in mid-sentence. I didn't catch what the other newscasts did. The only station I saw completely shut down was KCET.

I was surprised to see three of my usual low powers were (and are) off the air completely. Coincidence, or conspiracy? Dun dun DUNNNNNNN!

I was at the office, so I didn't have the best gear for the tests, but I see that both LP analog 45 and 69 are off the air right now. ...Oh, 45 is back all of a sudden. I can't say I missed it. ;)

I have a Zenith Silver Sensor UHF antenna for digital reception. But after Feb 19, do I need a VHF antenna for KCOP, KCAL, KABC, and KTTV since they will be switching to VHF?

It may work if you are in a strong signal area (I have had success with a Silver Sensor in Monterey with two VHF stations).

Have a look at your analog 7-13 reception. If it is poor, you may want to diplex in a pair of rabbit ears or try the Terk clone, which includes rabbit ears or you may need to consider a more robust solution, such as an outdoor class antenna.

Digital (ATSC) Tuner Requirements

On the digital side of the KNBC test done earlier tonight, KNBC indicated that sets made before 1998 do not have digital tuners and that 1998 was the cut-off. That makes it sound like all sets made in 1998 or later have digital tuners, which is not correct.

To clear this up, I am copying the FCC requirements here for reference:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-190A1.pdf

- Receivers with screen sizes 36” and above - 50% of all of a responsible party’s units must
include DTV tuners effective July 1, 2004; 100% of such units must include DTV tuners effective
July 1, 2005

- Receivers with screen sizes 25” to less than 36” - 50% of all of a responsible party’s units must
include DTV tuners effective July 1, 2005; 100% of such units must include DTV tuners effective
March 1, 2006

- Receivers with screen sizes less than 25” - 100% of all such units must include DTV tuners
effective March 1, 2007

- Other video devices (videocassette recorders (VCRs), digital video recorders such as hard drive
and DVD recorders, etc.) that receive television signals - 100% of all such units must include
DTV tuners effective March 1, 2007.

A dot or a dash next to the 0 on the number pad is a good indicator, but I have seen at least one TV that had that on the remote, w/o a digital tuner. It was probably made in early 2006.

KNBC commented that they will begin digital broadcasts on 2/17/09. What have they been doing for the past 10 years and what are many of us watching then? Perhaps they don't want people to convert "early" as they don't want to support DTV yet. i.e. we may as well be beta testers.

KMEX (34) will be doing hourly tests today.
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6618760.html?industryid=48696

Haven't bothered to put up my full antenna yet and still using bunny ears which is hit and m iss (usually miss). Was getting great signal with no drop outs the last few days though. Anyone else noticing stronger signal? All 55 digital channels.

Last night was the first drop out in awhile and was back after about an hour while I usually only get 10 minutes or so and then zilch except analog.

Haven't bothered to put up my full antenna yet and still using bunny ears which is hit and m iss (usually miss). Was getting great signal with no drop outs the last few days though. Anyone else noticing stronger signal? All 55 digital channels.

Last night was the first drop out in awhile and was back after about an hour while I usually only get 10 minutes or so and then zilch except analog.
From a fellow SXRD owner, I can't say I noticed a stronger signal lately. In fact ever since KLCS tower took a hit I've been having trouble tuning it in reliably and consistently. It just drops out on a regular basis.

Rudy

Last night was another perfect night AFAIK. Interesting.

Which SXRD, RudyG?

For the case of the Ventura site, I think you'll get better coverage from a location like Sandstone Peak. It seems to have a good vantage point to cover both Ventura and Thousand Oaks.

For the case of San Clemente, the terrain has too many ups and downs, so it looks like the only way to get effective coverage in all of the valley locations is with a high altitude site like Santiago Peak.

Thanks, Andy. I'm glad to see that someone else has attempted this, but will KNBC listen? ;)

Are you using the existing facility for Mt. Wilson? I see some red areas to the NE.

One of the reasons why I didn't choose higher elevation sites for the Ventura and San Clemente areas was to try and keep the signal levels outside the existing contour to a minimum.

I recall that the net coverage for DTS should only extend beyond the existing radius, by a "minimal" amount. I'm afraid it will be hard to balance the "no cherry picking" rule with the minimal signal outside the contour rule.

Are you using the existing facility for Mt. Wilson? I see some red areas to the NE.

The map shows where it's good to put up an antenna, not where there's coverage. The color coding indicates how much population you should theoretically reach if you placed an antenna there. Mt. Wilson does show white (good) reach, so it makes sense that everyone's transmitter is up there. Rancho Palos Verdes is also a great place to reach a lot of the LA basin.


One of the reasons why I didn't choose higher elevation sites for the Ventura and San Clemente areas was to try and keep the signal levels outside the existing contour to a minimum.

I recall that the net coverage for DTS should only extend beyond the existing radius, by a "minimal" amount. I'm afraid it will be hard to balance the "no cherry picking" rule with the minimal signal outside the contour rule.

It's quite possible we'll end up with something that looks a bit like a cellular network. There are plenty of companies like Crown Castle and American Tower that would be happy to lease space for many low power "TV cells". Since most of the construction costs have already be recouped from the cellular industry, it might not be that expensive to add TV to the mix. The tower placement and planning has already been done to achieve good coverage.

On the other hand, broadcast stations don't make that much money from OTA viewers any more. They probably get a greater share of income attributed to cable and satellite providers carrying their feeds. I'm not sure how much the broadcasters are willing to spend to improve support for OTA viewers unless they see a good potential for emerging revenue streams (e.g. premium pay channels, data delivery service, location based services, etc.).

From a cost standpoint, it should be more cost-effective for broadcasters to keep the number of transmit sites low, meaning a small number of high coverage sites would be ideal. They don't have the same problem of back-haul (channel capacity) that cellular networks have. Cell sites need a high capacity data link to handle a large service area (high call volume), but broadcast TV doesn't.