Los Angeles, CA - OTA [Text View] - Page 18

HoTatII

02-05-09, 05:32 PM

NBC has advised that KNBC and other locally owned stations (KVEA, KWHY) will honor the delay, IF the market as a whole doesn't decide to end analog before June 12th.

Technically, June 12th isn't the law yet, but I can't imagine the President not signing it.

I have heard rumors that ending on-time was being considered, but it seems that San Diego and LA are going to part ways as respects the handling of the delay (SD to end analog, except the Mexican stations, and LA hanging on to analog).

As for KCBS/KCAL, they won't confirm anything, but they did advise that KCAL won't be performing any DTV tests on 9 in the near future. It sounds like they will be hanging on as well.

Yeah..

Given this information and perusing their websites along with other information I can glean. It unfortunately appears that all the main full-power stations here in the L.A. market on the VHF-lo and hi bands are going to stand pat with simulcasting both their analog and digital signals until the June 12th deadline.

Damn!!…:mad: I was really looking forward to seeing the performance of the VHF-hi portion of my new high gain rooftop directional antenna when KABC, KCAL, KTTV, and KCOP resume broadcasting digitally on their former VHF-hi band analog frequencies. In particular for KCOP since it is my most troublesome DTV station on their current interim UHF channel 66. Their DTV signal tends to go out about 20% of the time here mostly on my DirecTV AM21 OTA tuner module for the DVR.

Now I realize that as a general rule if you currently receive their analog signals fine, which I do, the DTV should come in just fine as well once they transition. But since nothing is ever a given when dealing with RF, I would still like to confirm it nevertheless.

Besides, I paid about $140.00 at the time for a new VHF-hi/UHF antenna (a Winegard HD7697P) and the only DTV station I get to use the VHF-hi portion for right now is “crappy” (to understate it) KFLA-LD on channel 8. Definitely not the most efficient use of the antenna’s resources I’d say. :rolleyes:

holl_ands

02-05-09, 07:38 PM

Reportedly half the PBS stations and (ALL???) Network Owned stations will continue Analog:
http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090205/ap_on_hi_te/tec_digital_tv_transition

dotheDVDeed

02-05-09, 07:59 PM

Well KCET updated their website to read "at midnight on June 12, 2009 every full-power television station will switch from an analog signal to an all-digital format..."

So I assume their going to continue their analog signal until the June 12 deadline.

TIM

narkspud

02-05-09, 08:06 PM

"Copps, the acting FCC chairman, said CBS, Fox, ABC and NBC and Telemundo had committed to keeping the stations they own broadcasting analog until June 12.

Together, they own 85 full-power stations, mainly in large cities. The rest of the stations that carry these networks are affiliates not owned by the network. ABC spokeswoman Julie Hoover said some of its stations may still go early if all other stations in their market do so. "

http://tech.yahoo.com/news/ap/20090205/ap_on_hi_te/tec_digital_tv_transition

So there ya go.

phildaant

02-05-09, 08:41 PM

Yeah..

Given this information and perusing their websites along with other information I can glean. It unfortunately appears that all the main full-power stations here in the L.A. market on the VHF-lo and hi bands are going to stand pat with simulcasting both their analog and digital signals until the June 12th deadline.

Damn!!…:mad: I was really looking forward to seeing the performance of the VHF-hi portion of my new high gain rooftop directional antenna when KABC, KCAL, KTTV, and KCOP resume broadcasting digitally on their former VHF-hi band analog frequencies. In particular for KCOP since it is my most troublesome DTV station on their current interim UHF channel 66. Their DTV signal tends to go out about 20% of the time here mostly on my DirecTV AM21 OTA tuner module for the DVR.

Now I realize that as a general rule if you currently receive their analog signals fine, which I do, the DTV should come in just fine as well once they transition. But since nothing is ever a given when dealing with RF, I would still like to confirm it nevertheless.Well it is good for me since I can't get KABC at digital channel 7 due to my bowtie antenna. At least I have four months to resolve it.

phildaant

02-05-09, 08:45 PM

The following Silver Sensor includes Rabbit Ears for VHF.....and is amplified,
which would be preferred in most L.A. locations with no nearby transmitters to
worry about overloading the Preamp:
http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PHDTV3-Indoor-Amplified-Antenna/dp/B000B58VNM

Terk also makes amplified and unamplified Klones, with VHF rabbit ears:
http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Technology-HDTVi-Indoor-Antenna/dp/B0001FV36E
http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Amplified-High-Definition-Antenna-Reception/dp/B0007MXZB2Hmm, I have seen someone with the Terk one (unknown if it is the same model) before. I should borrow that one to see how it goes, but I have to wait until June to see if it works well on the digital channels and not the current ones.

Do local retail stores sell them?

Falcon_77

02-05-09, 08:49 PM

phildaant

02-05-09, 09:00 PM

oc-rdx

02-05-09, 09:28 PM

narkspud

02-05-09, 10:13 PM

Hmm, I have seen someone with the Terk one (unknown if it is the same model) before. I should borrow that one to see how it goes, but I have to wait until June to see if it works well on the digital channels and not the current ones.

Do local retail stores sell them?

I've seen the Silver Sensors at Fry's.

This thing works surprisingly well, and will win you a starship-load of geek points:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2131034
It has rabbit ears in the back, although the picture doesn't show them.

And I would advise avoiding Terk. They may LOOK the same, but ....

Falcon_77

02-05-09, 11:26 PM

In South Orange County, Saddleback Mountain (Santiago Peak) is a popular target, despite having no TV stations on it.

Closer to Mt. Wilson (e.g., S/SE LA County), it is easy to see the towers, but during my morning commute to Tustin, one has to know where to look. They are very faint even on the best of days.

During my early years in West Covina, the towers were hard to miss (well, when we weren't buried in smog).

HarrisonS

02-06-09, 10:31 AM

"Copps, the acting FCC chairman, said CBS, Fox, ABC and NBC and Telemundo had committed to keeping the stations they own broadcasting analog until June 12...

Based on this, it seems likely that KCAL will also stay put until June 12, since it shares studios with KCBS, and KCBS will be taking over its digital cahnnel on ch 43.

I wonder if these low-band VHF stations (KCBS, KNBC and KTLA) will continue to use their old analog channel numbers (2, 4 and 5) as "aliases" as they do today. It is bit hard to see KCBS calling itself "KCBS 43", etc.

Falcon_77

02-06-09, 11:29 AM

I wonder if these low-band VHF stations (KCBS, KNBC and KTLA) will continue to use their old analog channel numbers (2, 4 and 5) as "aliases" as they do today. It is bit hard to see KCBS calling itself "KCBS 43", etc.

They are required to unless the FCC changes the rules. Of course, this adds to the confusion for a while until viewers realize that the virtual channels have nothing to do with the band a station is on. Until then, people will wonder why their monster VHF antennas aren't working very well.

Falcon_77

02-06-09, 11:32 AM

This article from the LA Times was linked on the main channel change thread and I thought it would be useful to re-post here:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-digitaltv6-2009feb06,1,2787044.story

It is interesting to note that KTLA was undecided about ending analog on-time.

ABC, CBS, Fox and NBC/Telemundo -- had vowed that their owned-and-operated stations would not switch to digital-only signals until the delayed date.

Their four local stations all fit the bill, which means that the estimated 400,000 households in Los Angeles that aren't prepared for the digital transition have almost four months to buy a converter box or a digital TV.

The region's leading PBS affiliate, KCET, also said it would wait until June 12.

Tribune Co. said it was still deciding when to make the switch for its local CW affiliate, KTLA-TV Channel 5, and its 22 other stations. Tribune also owns the Los Angeles Times.

phildaant

02-06-09, 11:43 AM

The following Silver Sensor includes Rabbit Ears for VHF.....and is amplified,
which would be preferred in most L.A. locations with no nearby transmitters to
worry about overloading the Preamp:
http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PHDTV3-Indoor-Amplified-Antenna/dp/B000B58VNM

Terk also makes amplified and unamplified Klones, with VHF rabbit ears:
http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Technology-HDTVi-Indoor-Antenna/dp/B0001FV36E
http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Amplified-High-Definition-Antenna-Reception/dp/B0007MXZB2

I ran into this article: http://spectrum.ieee.org/feb09/7328 for an antenna article. Any comments on these?

HoTatII

02-06-09, 12:45 PM

Mt. Wilson/San Gabriel Mountains Panorama

As I see many (most?) antennas not pointed to Mt. Wilson, especially in OC areas, I thought I would post an image of the mountains, showing where Mt. Wilson is located.

I have been wanting to do this for a while and while I didn't choose the best day, at least enough is visible here for ID purposes. Most of the time it's not as easy to see Mt. Wilson from OC.

If I get a chance, I will try again on a better day, but I had already put this off for several months (mostly by forgetting my camera on the good days).

In addition to the attachment, a full resolution image (354kB) can be found here:

http://www.rabbitears.info/ss/LA/LA-Panorama.jpg

I should note that there are cases when the antenna would not be pointed to the towers, due to reflections, multi-path issues, etc., but trying the actual direction first is a good start.

This composite picture was taken from the Newport Coast area.

Thanks for those images Falcon_77;

But what I would really like to know from those here who may be more knowledgeable in the specific geography of the area and the names used to label it’s different sectors, is what or where exactly is "Mt. Wilson?" For example the majority of the TV/FM transmitter antennas supposedly located there are actually on a place called “Mt. Alta.” And a lot of recent arrivals are based to the south on newer facilities constructed on “Mt. Harvard.” Also is the CBS compound at "Deer Park" or the "Fox group" situated to the east of Mt. Alta sitting on Mt. Wilson proper?

Or is "Mt. Wilson" a name for a collective group of mountains? Because if it is why do so many speak of Wilson as though it were a single mountain with an elevation of approx. 5700 ft. above msl?… :confused:

Forgive me but geography was never my strong suit or amongst my greater interest. ;)

narkspud

02-06-09, 01:48 PM

I just got a response from KOCE. They're keeping their analog until June 12th "unless the Los Angeles market decides to do the shut off earlier."

HoTatII

02-06-09, 02:38 PM

I just got a response from KOCE. They're keeping their analog until June 12th "unless the Los Angeles market decides to do the shut off earlier."

Oh well…

With PBS’s KCET-28 choice to observe the delay, I guess I shouldn’t really be surprised at PBS Station KOCE’s decision to do the same. But it’s just an annoyance to me in another way as I was looking foward to the transition correcting a problem with this particular station. Since they are one of the few stations where their main DTV program schedule on 50.1/UHF 48 is different from their analog one on ch. 50. Fortunately my OTA listings provided by Tribune Media Services (TMS) in DirecTV’s program guide accurately reflects this difference.

However, where the Windows Media Center on my PC gets its EPG information from does not do this, and merely mirrors the analog listings for KOCE. Therefore I can’t set recordings from the program guide for their DTV programming, but must use a manual set-up for them.

narkspud

02-06-09, 03:11 PM

Aaaaand that's that. KTLA's website says June 12.
http://www.ktla.com/dtv

Falcon_77

02-06-09, 04:43 PM

what or where exactly is "Mt. Wilson?" For example the majority of the TV/FM transmitter antennas supposedly located there are actually on a place called “Mt. Alta.” And a lot of recent arrivals are based to the south on newer facilities constructed on “Mt. Harvard.” Also is the CBS compound at "Deer Park" or the "Fox group" situated to the east of Mt. Alta sitting on Mt. Wilson proper?

As the various sites are within about a mile of each other, it is easier just to say Mt. Wilson. Mt. Harvard is about a mile South of Mt. Wilson and is about 250' lower. Attached is a picture of the area.

Mt. Wilson can also be explored with Google Street view. Attached is a sample picture.

dotheDVDeed

02-06-09, 06:31 PM

Well any word on KDOC (analog 56) or KPXN (analog 30)?

Smaller stations with smaller budgets, maybe they might go earlier?

I have a friend in Long Beach who needs to buy an antenna for his balcony. It would've been nice if there had been a digital channel on VHF to test for. (No that CH 8 low power channel doesn't count)

My Mom lives in North San Diego County. It would've been good to see if digital TV delivered via VHF travels farther than UHF. Theory says yes, but we'll have to wait until June to find out.

TIM

narkspud

02-06-09, 08:38 PM

Telemundo 52's website has a new banner ad listing the June date.

trumptman

02-06-09, 09:02 PM

Anyone have any word on when the promised "THIS-TV" will appear? First it was promised on KDOC and now is supposed to show up on KTLA but nothing states when.

holl_ands

02-06-09, 09:06 PM

I ran into this article: http://spectrum.ieee.org/feb09/7328 for an antenna article. Any comments on these?
Concentrates on only a few (mostly NEW) antennas....leaves out CM42228 and
dozens of other affordable good antennas. Obfuscated the source for
RCA (Audiovox) and DX Antennas (Funai???) Smart Antennas.

Of course Antennas Direct is in each category--founded by one of the authors.

<EscapeVelocity> has tested dozens of indoor antennas here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779
However, bear in mind that his PBS station is at nearly 90-degrees
to the main cluster, so his "quality metric" is looking for a very broad
beamwidth, rather than a narrow beamwidth to suppress multipath,
as would be desirable for Mt Wilson stations......

holl_ands

02-06-09, 09:19 PM

As the various sites are within about a mile of each other, it is easier just to say Mt. Wilson. Mt. Harvard is about a mile South of Mt. Wilson and is about 250' lower. Attached is a picture of the area.

Mt. Wilson can also be explored with Google Street view. Attached is a sample picture.
FYI: The Transmitter Icons shown in the GoogleEarth Mt Wilson pics can be
downloaded as a *.kmz file from TVFool (and FM Icons from www.fmfool.com):
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=46
After downloading, unzip and then double-click on *.kmz file to load into
GoogleEarth. If in "Temporary Places" folder, grab & move it upwards.

As you zoom on in, you'll see a depiction of tower height and can click on
the Icon to display a data block, including transmitted power.
Uncheck the box when you don't need it...1000's of icons hog the processor.

phildaant

02-06-09, 09:24 PM

I've seen the Silver Sensors at Fry's.

This thing works surprisingly well, and will win you a starship-load of geek points:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2131034
It has rabbit ears in the back, although the picture doesn't show them.

And I would advise avoiding Terk. They may LOOK the same, but ....What's bad about Terk compared to others like Silver Sensors and Indoor VHF/UHF/HDTV Antenna with RF Remote Control (LOL, I am a geek for sure -- does that top thing spin/rotate?).

And do all these antenna need to be hooked up to power? I like my rabbit ears and bowtie that don't need power. I already have too many power plugs hogging power and way too hot in the heat waves! :D

narkspud

02-06-09, 10:27 PM

What's bad about Terk compared to others like Silver Sensors and Indoor VHF/UHF/HDTV Antenna with RF Remote Control (LOL, I am a geek for sure -- does that top thing spin/rotate?).

And do all these antenna need to be hooked up to power? I like my rabbit ears and bowtie that don't need power. I already have too many power plugs hogging power and way too hot in the heat waves! :D

The Terks just don't work as well. I don't know if it's materials or what. That's been my experience, and if you do a search for Terk on AVS (including EscapeVelocity's antenna shootout), I think you'll find I'm not alone.

If the antenna has an amplifier, it'll need to be hooked up to power, and that includes the giant plastic Radio Shack Starship Enterprise there.

You'll get differing views on whether an amp does any good or not if you aren't running long runs of cable, but one thing everyone seems to agree on is that not just any amp will do.

It has to be one with a lower-than-average noise floor or it can make matters worse. It would also be a bad thing if your signals were already strong enough, since too strong a signal can overload your receiver. My apartment building has an amplified antenna on the roof, and I have to pad it about 16 dB (!!!) to avoid overloading my HD DTV receiver and losing channels.

The top of the UFO does rotate, but sadly it's only on the inside. That's what's controlled by the remote. That thing is #3 on EV's list, BTW.

Next time you find yourself in the vicinity of a Radio Shack, go in and check the sucker out. You might decide you want it just for interior decorating. It's quite a bit bigger than it looks in the picture.

phildaant

02-06-09, 10:30 PM

The Terks just don't work as well. I don't know if it's materials or what. That's been my experience, and if you do a search for Terk on AVS (including EscapeVelocity's antenna shootout), I think you'll find I'm not alone.

If the antenna has an amplifier, it'll need to be hooked up to power, and that includes the giant plastic Radio Shack Starship Enterprise there.

You'll get differing views on whether an amp does any good or not if you aren't running long runs of cable, but one thing everyone seems to agree on is that not just any amp will do.

It has to be one with a lower-than-average noise floor or it can make matters worse. It would also be a bad thing if your signals were already strong enough, since too strong a signal can overload your receiver. My apartment building has an amplified antenna on the roof, and I have to pad it about 16 dB (!!!) to avoid overloading my HD DTV receiver and losing channels.

The top of the UFO does rotate, but sadly it's only on the inside. That's what's controlled by the remote. That thing is #3 on EV's list, BTW.

Next time you find yourself in the vicinity of a Radio Shack, go in and check the sucker out. You might decide you want it just for interior decorating. It's quite a bit bigger than it looks in the picture.I don't think my cables are that long. It goes from one side to another side in my tiny room. What is amp for? Does it improve signal strength and less dropouts?

phildaant

02-07-09, 01:00 AM

The following Silver Sensor includes Rabbit Ears for VHF.....and is amplified,
which would be preferred in most L.A. locations with no nearby transmitters to
worry about overloading the Preamp:
http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PHDTV3-Indoor-Amplified-Antenna/dp/B000B58VNM

Terk also makes amplified and unamplified Klones, with VHF rabbit ears:
http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Technology-HDTVi-Indoor-Antenna/dp/B0001FV36E
http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Amplified-High-Definition-Antenna-Reception/dp/B0007MXZB2

FYI. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3df322a2e7f7 of tvfool for digital only after 2/17/2009 (well, 6/12/2009 now).

Curious. I recalled I had to adjust my old basic rabbit ears for analog channels in the past. Do I have to do that again for digital after the channels are switched to digital on June 12th, 2009?

kucharsk

02-07-09, 02:49 AM

Aaaaand that's that. KTLA's website says June 12.
http://www.ktla.com/dtv

Interesting, as Tribune-owned KWGN in Denver will be switching on-time on February 17:

On February 17 KWGN-TV, Denver, Colorado, intends to cease analog broadcasting; this will occur prior to the new nationwide DTV transition date of June 12, 2009.

http://www.kwgn.com/pages/dtv_transition/

But Chicago's Tribune station, WGN, will also be waiting until June 12…

Trip in VA

02-07-09, 06:16 AM

KTLA is a bigger station than KWGN is, and isn't waiting on the end of analog to replace their antennas like KWGN is.

- Trip

desertdude1

02-07-09, 06:24 AM

holl_ands

02-07-09, 09:55 AM

I ran into this article: http://spectrum.ieee.org/feb09/7328 for an antenna article. Any comments on these?
FYI: Here's a much more inclusive Antenna Selector Chart:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=97121

BTW: In Canada, "The Source" is a Circuit City on-line store (what's a Circuit City????)
http://www.thesource.ca/estore/category.aspx?language=en-CA&catalog=Online&category=Indoor+Antennas&pagenum=1&sort=1
Punch in "The Source" part number and you'll see p/n 1501880 is fol. Indoor antenna:
http://www.thesource.ca/estore/Product.aspx?language=en-CA&catalog=Online&category=Indoor+Antennas&product=1501880
which appears to be the old Radio Shack 15-1862 or 15-1880 Klone:
http://www.radioshack.com/graphics/uc/rsk/Support/ProductManuals/1501862_PM_EN.pdf

phildaant

02-07-09, 09:55 AM

phildaant

02-07-09, 10:32 AM

FYI: Here's a much more inclusive Antenna Selector Chart:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=97121Is there a way to get the PDF without registering? I don't live in Canada so the forum wouldn't be that useful to me. :P

HarrisonS

02-07-09, 10:32 AM

Have you guys had trouble with the rain?

I lost numerous stations, including KNBC 4, KTTV 11, KCOP 13, KCET 28 and possibly one or two others. The signal level on my converter box was hovering around 25% when they're normally over 75%. For some reason, KCAL 9 is solid at 90%.

How much attenuation caused by the rain should be acceptable? Surely not 50% like I'm experiencing, correct? I wonder if a preamp (or new antenna) would help my problem. I have more than 100 feet of coax from the antenna to the basement and back upstairs again.

For me, KCET disappeared completely, and, surprisingly even KCBS was breaking up a lot. KABC and KCAL were coming in fine. This proves that it is a myth that DTV stations do not need to run as much power as analog - I believe the quoted figure is 13 db. However, this would only hold true under ideal conditions: no rain, no wind and perfect line-of-sight to the transmitter. Incidentally, high winds can be at least as disastrous to reception as rain.

holl_ands

02-07-09, 11:20 AM

Have you guys had trouble with the rain?

I lost numerous stations, including KNBC 4, KTTV 11, KCOP 13, KCET 28 and possibly one or two others. The signal level on my converter box was hovering around 25% when they're normally over 75%. For some reason, KCAL 9 is solid at 90%.

How much attenuation caused by the rain should be acceptable? Surely not 50% like I'm experiencing, correct? I wonder if a preamp (or new antenna) would help my problem. I have more than 100 feet of coax from the antenna to the basement and back upstairs again.
At VHF & UHF frequencies, rain attenuation is essentially zero.
However propagation conditions can be different, resulting in ducts going away
or the signal being refracted differently. "Changes" also occur during Santa Ana's.

Wind shouldn't change the antenna's direction unless it's really wobbly,
which should be readily visible and in need of correction before it drops
on top of your car....or head....

What is more likely is moisture getting into your outdoor balun, Preamp and/or coax.
And any significant length of 300-ohm Twinlead will have much higher
loss when wet....which is one big reason we changed to 75-ohm coax.

holl_ands

02-07-09, 11:33 AM

Is there a way to get the PDF without registering? I don't live in Canada so the forum wouldn't be that useful to me. :P
Apparently NOT....
BTW, quite a few Yanks are on the "Canadian" forum....we share a mutual interest....

Registration is quick & easy...they only need an email address....
I use several free email accounts (e.g hotmail, googlemail, yahoomail)
just in case I get a flood of unwanted emails....something that didn't
occur with this well run website....the home of the DIY Gray-Hoverman,
with an active antenna modeling discourse:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/section/section/article/68436
http://www.tvtechnology.com/section/article/68820
http://www.jedsoft.org/fun/antennas/dtv/gh.html
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=186

narkspud

02-07-09, 11:40 AM

benway

02-07-09, 12:59 PM

seems KCAL9 has now decided to flag their stereo broadcasts as 5.1, resulting in the usual loss of the center channel.

edit seems like kcbs is doing it also

marketing 2 engineering 0

it would be great if the networks [are you listening nbc] took the extra time to actually get their digital act together, before it becomes the only choice

I suspect that when eveyone is watching digital [ie the sponsors], their performance might improve

desertdude1

02-07-09, 10:00 PM

However, this would only hold true under ideal conditions: no rain, no wind and perfect line-of-sight to the transmitter. Incidentally, high winds can be at least as disastrous to reception as rain.

And these are the times when people NEED to have television reception. I shouldn't have to break out an AM/FM or Weather radio whenever there's rain, wind, or fires.

desertdude1

02-07-09, 10:06 PM

phildaant

02-07-09, 10:11 PM

And these are the times when people NEED to have television reception. I shouldn't have to break out an AM/FM or Weather radio whenever there's rain, wind, or fires.And this is why I still prefer old school analog since it is more reliable and can still be watchable if feeds isn't very strong. I take snowy picture!

HarrisonS

02-08-09, 11:07 AM

At VHF & UHF frequencies, rain attenuation is essentially zero.
However propagation conditions can be different, resulting in ducts going away
or the signal being refracted differently. "Changes" also occur during Santa Ana's.

Wind shouldn't change the antenna's direction unless it's really wobbly,
which should be readily visible and in need of correction before it drops
on top of your car....or head....

What is more likely is moisture getting into your outdoor balun, Preamp and/or coax.
And any significant length of 300-ohm Twinlead will have much higher
loss when wet....which is one big reason we changed to 75-ohm coax.

Those of us who do not have a perfect line-of-sight to Mt. Wilson must depend on ducting, refraction, diffraction and reflections to receive the signals. I believe that the severe signal fluctuations that occur under windy conditions are in large part caused by multipath, with the multiple reflections constantly changing in phase so that there is alternate constuctive and destructive interference between them at the antenna. This problem persists, even if the antenna itself is tightly secured. This is because there are lots of objects in the user's neighborhood that are moving around with the wind gusts. The result is like the effect of a low flying aircraft, but much more random.

Also, of course, the windy conditions disrupt the ducting, which might otherwise help the propagation.

phildaant

02-08-09, 02:55 PM

Those of us who do not have a perfect line-of-sight to Mt. Wilson must depend on ducting, refraction, diffraction and reflections to receive the signals. I believe that the severe signal fluctuations that occur under windy conditions are in large part caused by multipath, with the multiple reflections constantly changing in phase so that there is alternate constuctive and destructive interference between them at the antenna. This problem persists, even if the antenna itself is tightly secured. This is because there are lots of objects in the user's neighborhood that are moving around with the wind gusts. The result is like the effect of a low flying aircraft, but much more random.

Also, of course, the windy conditions disrupt the ducting, which might otherwise help the propagation.So how does one fix this for bad weather conditions for OTA?

RudyG

02-08-09, 03:20 PM

That Silver Sensor is UHF only, and won't do him much good for the VHFs he's anticipating trouble with.
For whatever it might be worth. Channel 9 analog comes in as clear as the digital channels with my Silver Sensor. Followed in quality by channel 7 which is almost as clear. Channels 11 and 13 are somewhat snowy. Again this is analog.
It is sad but true, congress passed the bill that will delay the Digital cut over until June 12, 2009. The last step is for Obama to sign the bill.

Just goes to show you how dumb congress really is. That they think an additional 100 days will make any difference. When people had eight years to get ready for the change to DTV and average Joe American did nothing, or at least a few million.
Can't possibly agree with you more. We're going to waste time and money only to find out that we are in the same place then as we are now. :(

Also, I saw, THIS-TV call letters on KDOC's third subchannel. That is channel 56.3. Although not the content yet.

Rudy

narkspud

02-08-09, 03:41 PM

Also, I saw, THIS-TV call letters on KDOC's third subchannel. That is channel 56.3. Although not the content yet.

Those have been there for months, I'm afraid.

Do you get the impression that KDOC isn't paying just a whole lot of attention to those subchannels?

phildaant

02-08-09, 06:07 PM

I watched the last 3.5 minutes of today's Lakers game (GO LAKERS!) and my feed is bad (lots of dropouts) with 10-30% signal strength. :(

I checked weather.com for Mt. Wilson and it says foggy:
UV Index: 1 Low
Wind: From SW at 6 mph
Humidity: 99%
Pressure: 29.93 in.
Dew Point: 33°F
Visibility: 0.4 miles

No rain, just clouds. :(

holl_ands

02-08-09, 09:13 PM

So how does one fix this for bad weather conditions for OTA?
Higher gain antenna. Add a Preamp. Move antenna...perhaps outdoors.

Or get cable....

HarrisonS

02-09-09, 11:04 AM

So how does one fix this for bad weather conditions for OTA?

You can't, except to have high gain roof antennas, making sure they are carefully aligned toward the stations. On the part of the stations, they can increase their power and improve their antennas. If the signal is strong enough, it will punch through with solid reception, regardless of weather conditions.

HarrisonS

02-09-09, 11:19 AM

And these are the times when people NEED to have television reception. I shouldn't have to break out an AM/FM or Weather radio whenever there's rain, wind, or fires.

Good point! Another argument as to why the FCC should allow stations to raise their power substantially after the DTV transition. Otherwise, they will not be able to meet their public service obligations adequately.

phildaant

02-09-09, 11:51 AM

You can't, except to have high gain roof antennas, making sure they are carefully aligned toward the stations. On the part of the stations, they can increase their power and improve their antennas. If the signal is strong enough, it will punch through with solid reception, regardless of weather conditions.How can we tell if the stations are at max power? I wonder if KABC and KNBC are even at max power compared to others since most transmitters are at the same location and distance.

Trip in VA

02-09-09, 12:22 PM

Falcon didn't get here yet I guess, but yesterday KCET filed to boost power to 1000 kW on channel 28.

- Trip

HarrisonS

02-09-09, 12:59 PM

Falcon didn't get here yet I guess, but yesterday KCET filed to boost power to 1000 kW on channel 28.

- Trip

That is very good news! That should cure the all-too-frequent reception problems with that station for good!

KJ4IEA de KF6W

HoTatII

02-09-09, 03:26 PM

Those have been there for months, I'm afraid.

Do you get the impression that KDOC isn't paying just a whole lot of attention to those subchannels?

Obviously not I would think;

Since in addition to this, I used to enjoy watching “Bohemian Visual Music” formally broadcasted on their sub-channel 56.3 (although the PQ wasn't very good)., and is still scheduled as such in my DirecTV OTA guide from Tribune Media Services (TMS). But now KDOC-56 is merely broadcasting their main HD DTV signal on 56-1, with SD versions of it on both sub-channels 56-2, and 56-3. At first when it was only 56-2 sending the SD version I thought it was for the sake of some cable TV head ends which may request them. But I have no answers for why KDOC is broadcasting the main program in SD on 56-3 as well now. :confused:

desertdude1

02-09-09, 09:03 PM

I wonder if TBN cranked up their power recently?

Just this weekend, I saw them in digital for the very first time. Before, I had absolutely no signal.

HarrisonS

02-10-09, 10:39 AM

I wonder if TBN cranked up their power recently?

Just this weekend, I saw them in digital for the very first time. Before, I had absolutely no signal.

With all the money they rake in, they can certainly afford better transmitters! Their digital signals up to now have usually been undetectable, and even their analog has been too snowy to watch.

Trip in VA

02-10-09, 10:42 AM

I doubt KTBN will up the power until they move to channel 33. They've received approval from the FCC, so now it's just a matter of installing equipment.

Currently, KTBN is at 50 kW on channel 23. After they move, they'll be at 1000 kW on channel 33.

- Trip

Falcon_77

02-10-09, 11:44 AM

Commissioner Adelstein to Visit Los Angeles for DTV Outreach

I went to this last night (at CSU LA) and was very disappointed at the turn out (fewer than 10 viewers were there). However, Commissioner Adelstein could not attend the evening session. From what they told me, there were about 200 people at the West Covina event and 100 people at the Mount Moriah Baptist Church event, both earlier in the day.

For the CSU LA event, I suppose that the cold and difficult parking situation drove some away. I also had a hard time finding the location of the meeting. There were no signs outside of the room (at least that I could find) saying where it was.

Univision (KMEX) was there along with Dish, but the combination of the FCC staffers and sponsors almost outnumbered the attendees.

The information provided was very general and while I raised several concerns I had (UHF, antennas & DTS to name a few), I doubt it was of much use. There was no slide "show" (just 1 slide) or CECB demonstration and only a few posters to look at.

Perhaps:

1) The delay has people sitting on their hands again
2) This wasn't promoted enough
3) We are more prepared than I thought (in the LA/OC area)

but 1-2 seem more likely than 3.

sandog

02-10-09, 01:43 PM

desertdude1

02-10-09, 03:53 PM

With all the money they rake in, they can certainly afford better transmitters! Their digital signals up to now have usually been undetectable, and even their analog has been too snowy to watch.

My thoughts exactly.

All I know is something must have changed on their end. I didn't do anything to go from 0% to 50% signal.

narkspud

02-10-09, 04:24 PM

My thoughts exactly.

All I know is something must have changed on their end. I didn't do anything to go from 0% to 50% signal.

It could be the unusual weather ....

For the last couple days I've been getting a near perfect picture (such as it is) from KSFV-LP "Guadalupe Radio." That's never happened before.

Hmmmm .... two religious stations .........

Possumgirl

02-10-09, 04:36 PM

That's terrible news about KCET power boost (post transition). Doesn't LA have two other PBS stations already? In any case, XHJK-DT 28 offers fantastic programming, much better that the domestic Spanish stations, and in HD. Adios XHJK...

KCET is THE primary PBS station for Los Angeles, airing first-run PBS programs on their HD channel. KOCE (50) is technically Orange County although they can be seen throughout L.A. They march to a different drum with a schedule that is about 1-2 weeks behind the PBS first-run and use their HD channel for a lot of fund-raising specials. KLCS (58) is licensed to the L.A. Unified School District. Their programming is primarily educational and classroom. They have four SD channels but no HD.

phildaant

02-10-09, 06:01 PM

My thoughts exactly.

All I know is something must have changed on their end. I didn't do anything to go from 0% to 50% signal.For me, it went the other way.

So, how's today? It's clear and nice!

WynsWrld98

02-10-09, 09:43 PM

I just got back from a trip out of state to visit my parents who live in Glendora (I live in Washington). I installed a DTVPal converter box on one of their TVs while I was down there. They have been receiving all analog channels in their area (CBS, NBC, CW, ABC, FOX, etc.) just fine with their roof antenna. With the DTVPal box I was able to receive the following stations with strong signal strength: CBS, NBC, CW (KTLA) and KCET (PBS) but didn't get ABC, FOX, KCAL or KCOP to come in at all.

I just went to the antennaweb.org site and typed in their address and see that all of the channels I list above all broadcast from the same area (Mt. Wilson) with the exact same compass heading of 283 degrees which is where their yagi antenna connected with coax, mounted on their roof, is aimed. What I did notice though that is special about the channels they're not able to receive is all of them have low frequency assignments on the antennaweb.org site and I think that may be a clue as to what's going on.

ABC-DT frequency assignment: 7
KCAL-DT frequency assignment: 9
FOX-DT frequency assignment: 11
KCOP-DT frequency assignment: 13

The antennaweb.org site lists the channels in easiest to receive order to worse and all of the above channels they're NOT receiving are listed above the channels they are receiving.

The channels they are able to tune just fine have frequency assignments that appear to be in the UHF range from my knowledge:

CBS-DT frequency assignment: 43
KTLA-DT frequency assignment: 31
NBC-DT frequency assignment: 36
KCET-DT frequency assignment: 59

The fact without the DTVPal box they can tune ALL of the analog channels (which I believe are in the VHF band) and DTV channels in the UHF range just fine tells me their antenna is performing fine and I can see it's aimed exactly where it should be.

I was curious if anyone has heard of this type of problem whereby they can receive high frequency digital channel #s (e.g., those in UHF band) but not those in the lower frequency bands (VHF) digital channels with a converter box despite having no obstructions with their antenna and all broadcast stations being at the exact same compass location.

Unfortunately when I was down there I didn't get a chance to lookup this info on antennaweb.org and my parents are in their 80s and wouldn't have a clue how to try and manually add channels through the DTVPal interface but if I could at least get feedback from anyone who might have a clue what's going on perhaps I can get them setup to receive the missing channels the next time I get down there in a few months.

My parent's zip in Glendora is 91741

Thanks in advance!

phildaant

02-10-09, 09:56 PM

HoTatII

02-10-09, 10:36 PM

That's terrible news about KCET power boost (post transition). Doesn't LA have two other PBS stations already? In any case, XHJK-DT 28 offers fantastic programming, much better that the domestic Spanish stations, and in HD. Adios XHJK...

Yes, the three PBS stations in the L.A. DMA are actually KCET-28 Los Angeles (DTV 28.1/UHF-59), KOCE-50 Huntington Beach (50.1/UHF-48), and KVCR-24 San Bernardino (DTV 24.1/UHF-26).

And while I’m on the subject, for me anyhow, since KVCR’s transmitter is not located atop Mt. Wilson, and my antenna is a high gain directional aimed at Mt. Wilson without a rotator, I cannot receive either their DTV or analog signal off-air.

This causes me a problem nowadays because while KVCR’s standard definition signal is available via DirecTV (no HD yet, if ever), recently to my annoyance DirecTV is now apparently using KVCR’s off-air DTV signal at their “Local Receive Facility” (LRF) for back-hauling to their broadcast centers.

They then down-rez and “letter-box” it instead of using “center-cut” (or “crop”) before satellite uplink for transmission on their Ku band SD channel network. This causes window-boxing of the picture on a 4:3 set whenever KVCR broadcast any up-converted 4:3 material which they mostly do. Such window-boxing is particularly severe on wide-screen 16:9 sets as the side pillar-bars are double-width in size. :mad:

I’ve noticed this is also happening now with KCET’s SD feed from DirecTV. However, thankfully I have access to their HD signal both OTA from Mt. Wilson and from DirecTV as it is available from them in HD, and therefore I don’t require the SD one. But I guess I'm going to have to try and contact these two stations technical management, KVCR's in particular, and complain that they should tell DirecTV to use center-cut instead for their SD signals as do most of the local stations carried by DirecTV, and not letter-box.

Possumgirl

02-10-09, 11:16 PM

Falcon_77

02-11-09, 12:00 AM

...because 5 sub-channels aren't enough.

KSCI is now showing a 6th sub-channel for 7 total. That has to be some kind of record?

No programming yet, but it will be Japanese programming. I am looking forward to it. Attached is a pic and and updated TSR.

That's one benefit to the DTV Pal DVR. It tells me when it finds new channels when I get home.

phildaant

02-11-09, 01:01 AM

...because 5 sub-channels aren't enough.

KSCI is now showing a 6th sub-channel for 7 total. That has to be some kind of record?

No programming yet, but it will be Japanese programming. I am looking forward to it. Attached is a pic and and updated TSR.Thanks. I will have to let a Japanese coworker know about that. Does KSCI ever show anything (Chinese stuff) in HD?

ickysmits

02-11-09, 04:39 AM

Hi all, I have a few questions that I’ve been thinking about…I’m in Mar Vista 90066 by the way.

First off, I used to watch TV in stereo mode and can’t remember having a problem with the audio. I recently started using the Dolby Digital feature on my receiver and I noticed that occasionally the audio will cut in and out. It’ll be good for a while but sometimes it will very briefly cut out about every minute (on channels that come in well). I’m assuming it’s because of the signal, but why would DD be any different?

My other question has to do with my antenna – condo on the ground floor and a two story building blocking line of sight with Mt. Wilson. The Terk 5 I had worked OK but the coat hanger antenna I made and hang in my window works better (it’s ugly though). It’s connected to about 10 feet of RG6 cable. 13 comes in better but it depends on the day or time of day, it’s still a bit spotty. I think I only need just a little more to get better reception without having to get up and move things around. Would an Antenna Direct DB2 or C2 give me the extra bit I need? Something else? Putting an antenna outside isn’t an option.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

coyoteaz

02-11-09, 05:15 AM

ickysmits

02-11-09, 05:57 AM

I'm glad I asked, thanks! I didn't know some channels were moving to VHF. I just checked antennaweb and things have changed from the last time I looked. I will hold off for now.

VenturaTVViewer

02-11-09, 09:08 AM

Is turning off analog on the upcoming date: 2/17/09. Already broadcasting on digital. Ready for it.

retiredengineer

02-11-09, 11:31 AM

Hi all, I have a few questions that I’ve been thinking about…I’m in Mar Vista 90066 by the way.

My other question has to do with my antenna – condo on the ground floor and a two story building blocking line of sight with Mt. Wilson. The Terk 5 I had worked OK but the coat hanger antenna I made and hang in my window works better (it’s ugly though). It’s connected to about 10 feet of RG6 cable. 13 comes in better but it depends on the day or time of day, it’s still a bit spotty. I think I only need just a little more to get better reception without having to get up and move things around. Would an Antenna Direct DB2 or C2 give me the extra bit I need? Something else? Putting an antenna outside isn’t an option.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

www.hdtvexpert.com just published a review of three indoor antennas. See if you can possibly use one of those.

narkspud

02-11-09, 11:37 AM

...because 5 sub-channels aren't enough.

KSCI is now showing a 6th sub-channel for 7 total. That has to be some kind of record?

KXLA (44.1) has been running 7 subchannels for a couple months now.

Amazingly, KSCI doesn't look all that bad with their 7 subchannels. Do I hear 8?

Thanks. I will have to let a Japanese coworker know about that. Does KSCI ever show anything (Chinese stuff) in HD?

Nope. And we should be thankful. 7 subchannels and HD? That would be heinous.

HarrisonS

02-11-09, 11:48 AM

That's terrible news about KCET power boost (post transition). Doesn't LA have two other PBS stations already? In any case, XHJK-DT 28 offers fantastic programming, much better that the domestic Spanish stations, and in HD. Adios XHJK...

On the contrary, it is very good news for us in LA! KCET has the best content, especially 28.4 PBS World, of all the PBS stations available here. Unbfortunately, it also has a very problematic signal, and desperately needs a big power boost! Keep in mind that all of these stations have entirely different programming, and so offer us a wide spectrum of programming choices.

To begin with, most of us cannot get KVCR-DT which is intended to be local only to the IE. (I used to watch it on analog occasionally, although the picture was very snowy.)

So that leaves us, in addition to KCET, the PBS stations KLCS and KOCE. KLCS has specialized educational programming. KOCE used to be very good, but it has been in a non-stop pledge drive mode for at least a year now, and is therefore a disappointment despite the fact that it has by far the strongest signal. (IMO they will likely drive away most of their viewers this way, if they haven't already, making the pledge drives self-defeating!)

Trip in VA

02-11-09, 12:33 PM

phildaant

02-11-09, 02:19 PM

Spending any money on a UHF-only antenna like the DB2 is foolish at this point with 4 stations (including 13) moving to VHF at the end of the transition (whenever that is :rolleyes:). Although AD states that the C2 works with VHF, I can't find any actual numbers that show its VHF performance. Looking at the design and the fact that the published numbers only show UHF, I'd say their claims are highly suspect. Your best would be to either stick with what you have now and way to see how things shake out, or suck it up and get a real high VHF/UHF combo antenna.Since I will need an antenna with both UHF and VHF, I tried one of these Terk Low-Profile Indoor Antennae (http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Low-Profile-Indoor-Antenna-TV5/dp/tech-data/B000069106/ref=de_a_smtdhttp://www.amazon.com/Terk-Low-Profile-Indoor-Antenna-TV5/dp/tech-data/B000069106/ref=de_a_smtd ; don't remember if it was the same brand and model) late last summer, but it didn't do well compared to my bowtie antenna (couldn't face the mountains like my bowtie). :(

phildaant

02-11-09, 02:40 PM

LA VHF to test digital tonight on channel 7

KABC-DT will be testing their digital transmitter overnight

02:12 - After a :30 second explanatory announcement, KABC will sign off
channel 7 analog and channel 53 digital.
02:13 (approx. ) KABC will sign on channel 7 digital (with regular
programming).
02:30 (approx.) Channel seven digital will sign off then analog 7 and
digital 53 will resume operation.

The test will conclude at approximately 2:30am

Please post on the post any reception reports.

Thanks

Disclaimer: I do not work for KABC/ABC or represent them.Does anyone know if KABC had its transmitter power to the max during this test?

WynsWrld98

02-11-09, 02:51 PM

---Quote (Originally by WynsWrld98)---
I just got back from a trip out of state to visit my parents who live in Glendora (I live in Washington). I installed a DTVPal converter box on one of their TVs while I was down there. They have been receiving all analog channels in their area (CBS, NBC, CW, ABC, FOX, etc.) just fine with their roof antenna. With the DTVPal box I was able to receive the following stations with strong signal strength: CBS, NBC, CW (KTLA) and KCET (PBS) but didn't get ABC, FOX, KCAL or KCOP to come in at all.

I just went to the antennaweb.org site and typed in their address and see that all of the channels I list above all broadcast from the same area (Mt. Wilson) with the exact same compass heading of 283 degrees which is where their yagi antenna connected with coax, mounted on their roof, is aimed. What I did notice though that is special about the channels they're not able to receive is all of them have low frequency assignments on the antennaweb.org site and I think that may be a clue as to what's going on.

ABC-DT frequency assignment: 7
KCAL-DT frequency assignment: 9
FOX-DT frequency assignment: 11
KCOP-DT frequency assignment: 13

The antennaweb.org site lists the channels in easiest to receive order to worse and all of the above channels they're NOT receiving are listed above the channels they are receiving.

The channels they are able to tune just fine have frequency assignments that appear to be in the UHF range from my knowledge:

CBS-DT frequency assignment: 43
KTLA-DT frequency assignment: 31
NBC-DT frequency assignment: 36
KCET-DT frequency assignment: 59

The fact without the DTVPal box they can tune ALL of the analog channels (which I believe are in the VHF band) and DTV channels in the UHF range just fine tells me their antenna is performing fine and I can see it's aimed exactly where it should be.

I was curious if anyone has heard of this type of problem whereby they can receive high frequency digital channel #s (e.g., those in UHF band) but not those in the lower frequency bands (VHF) digital channels with a converter box despite having no obstructions with their antenna and all broadcast stations being at the exact same compass location.

Unfortunately when I was down there I didn't get a chance to lookup this info on antennaweb.org and my parents are in their 80s and wouldn't have a clue how to try and manually add channels through the DTVPal interface but if I could at least get feedback from anyone who might have a clue what's going on perhaps I can get them setup to receive the missing channels the next time I get down there in a few months.

My parent's zip in Glendora is 91741

Thanks in advance!
---End Quote---
I live in Glendora also probably a mile or two south of your folks as my zip is 91740. Your results are odd. The four high-VHF channels are NOT broadcasting their digital signals on those frequencies until after analog shuts off. Currently they are at:
KABC 53
KCAL 43
KTTV 65
KCOP 66
KCBS is currently on 60 and will move to 43
KCET will be moving back to 28
KNBC and KTLA are at their post-transition locations.

------------------------------------------------------

When I was down there I did an internet search for what frequencies ABC, FOX, KCAL and KCOP were brodcasting on digitally and those numbers do look like the ones I found on the internet. I had forgotten about the AntennaWeb.org site when I was down and just did an internet search. On the DTVPal I did an "add channel" for ABC, FOX, KCAL and KCOP using the frequencies you list above and hit scan but it still didn't find any of them. I e-mailed this problem to DTVPal and they gave me a canned response about how to manually add a channel which I had already tried so they were of no use. It's hard being 1200 miles away and not being able to tinker with this. It wasn't raining at the moment I was doing the scans and as I said all of the digital channels that are listed as difficult to receive on AntennaWeb.org such as NBC came in just fine so this all doesn't make any sense to me.

phildaant

02-11-09, 03:00 PM

When I was down there I did an internet search for what frequencies ABC, FOX, KCAL and KCOP were brodcasting on digitally and those numbers do look like the ones I found on the internet. I had forgotten about the AntennaWeb.org site when I was down and just did an internet search. On the DTVPal I did an "add channel" for ABC, FOX, KCAL and KCOP using the frequencies you list above and hit scan but it still didn't find any of them. I e-mailed this problem to DTVPal and they gave me a canned response about how to manually add a channel which I had already tried so they were of no use. It's hard being 1200 miles away and not being able to tinker with this. It wasn't raining at the moment I was doing the scans and as I said all of the digital channels that are listed as difficult to receive on AntennaWeb.org such as NBC came in just fine so this all doesn't make any sense to me.Does this happen with neighbors and other TV tuners too? I am struggling with my issues (mainly KABC and KNBC) and I am under 20 miles. :( I seriously need to resolve my issue before 6/12/2009. Analog (still preferred and am glad that it was delayed!!) is mostly fine and I can handle not so clear picture and audio!

WackyPacks

02-11-09, 05:52 PM

Just noticed that THIS-TV is finally here @ 5.2. I thought I visited the channel's website before, but cannot remember the address now. Anybody know it?

phildaant

02-11-09, 06:01 PM

Just noticed that THIS-TV is finally here @ 5.2. I thought I visited the channel's website before, but cannot remember the address now. Anybody know it?Can't find it but I did find information about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_TV ... Doesn't sound interesting that I would care for. What did you see earlier? I do miss TheTube on 5.5!! :(

HoTatII

02-11-09, 06:36 PM

Just noticed that THIS-TV is finally here @ 5.2. I thought I visited the channel's website before, but cannot remember the address now. Anybody know it?

Hey, thanks for the heads up;

Just rescanned and got it. Its presently airing an old flick I saw years ago "Black Mama, White Mama" (1973) staring two hot babes of the '70s, Pam Grier and Margaret Markov (with electronic "blur" edits for the nude scenes of course ;)). And I'm impressed with the picture quality, for a sub-channel anyhow. KTLA is apparently not being stingy with allocating bandwidth for it. Wonder what data rate the TS Reader has on it?

HoTatII

02-11-09, 06:58 PM

What happened?

I left the room for a minute, and return to find that sub-channel 5.2 has disappeared? Rescanned again and its still gone, whats up with that?...:confused:

WackyPacks

02-11-09, 07:25 PM

Yes, my set showing "No Signal" on 5.2 as well. Maybe they were just doing some testing??? As far as what was on ThisTV's website, I am fairly certain that I saw something, but that was too long ago for me to remember exactly. It was probably just a listing of shows that did not interest me.

phildaant

02-11-09, 08:19 PM

Yes, my set showing "No Signal" on 5.2 as well. Maybe they were just doing some testing???Or maybe KTLA is reading this thread and wanting to see if we're paying attention. [grin]

FYI from http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/162773-This_TV_Clears_60_.php ...

"... Advertising-supported This TV is mostly comprised of MGM’s movie library, offering such classic films as Teen Wolf, Red Dawn, Thunderbolt and Lightfoot, Babette’s Feast, Midnight Cowboy and many others. TV stations also are encouraged to localize the network as Tribune plans to, adding local newscasts, sports and other exclusive local programming..."

Trip in VA

02-11-09, 09:19 PM

Unofficial website: http://www.thistvnetwork.net/

- Trip

phildaant

02-11-09, 09:26 PM

Unofficial website: http://www.thistvnetwork.net/Thanks. Nothing good on. :D KTLA should reshow those old B&W shows like Twilight Zone, Munsters, 3 Stooges, etc. [grin]

Trip in VA

02-11-09, 09:32 PM

The only thing I see on worth watching is the original Outer Limits. I want This TV in my area solely for that. :D

- Trip

WackyPacks

02-12-09, 12:52 AM

Thanks. Nothing good on. :D KTLA should reshow those old B&W shows like Twilight Zone, Munsters, 3 Stooges, etc. [grin]

Yeah. Bring back the Sunday morning episodes of Popeye as well.

phildaant

02-12-09, 12:59 AM

Wow, KABC's digital channel 53 is bad tonight during its Lost hour for me. I am only getting 7%-28% signal strength (used to be 50-60%! a few weeks ago) with major video corruptions. I checked my signal strength on analog feed (same DB2 bowtie antenna using a splitter). I guess I will have to watch my VCR's recording for tonight's Lost. :(

For kicks, I went downstair to see a couple's old 50" projection TV (not HD) that is using a Terk low-profile indoor antenna (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21gxjlDsZwL._SS500_.jpg looks the same, but not sure if the model is the same) and a Zeinth digital TV converter box. For a couple minutes, I saw no problems and its signal strength was much higher (about 3/4th according to its yellow/orange horizontal signal graph).

The only differences are antenna and location. My room is directly above theirs, we use different antenna, and tuners. My bowtie channel should handle channel 53 just fine. Downstair has a bigger room (more spacey) and have a big sliding window door to outside (patio) and other bigger windows. All of the windows have the same wooden shutters (new from last summer -- makes no differnces if they are opened or not) I have. Both of our glass windows and shutters are closed since it is night time and cold. Also, there are more smaller trees, plants, an old iron fence, grass, brick pillars, a wooden grid patio overhead, clement and brick patio floor, etc. Shouldn't *I* be getting better feeds from higher elevation and stronger antenna?

It was interesting that downstair is lower elevation and yet get better digital feeds than my upstair room with a bowtie antenna! Blah!

--

11:25 PM PST: Heh, I had to watch my analog recording on VCR which had no problems. Sheesh, I wonder why all the sudden bad digital feeds from KNBC and KABC lately. I noticed the first 3/4th of Lost's episode was unstable. Last 1/4th held almost perfectly. :(

narkspud

02-12-09, 01:54 AM

Somethin's up at KSFV-CA, our buddy TV-6/Guadalupe Radio. The religious paintings and the Guadalupe Radio logo are both gone, replaced by this weird animated aurora-borealis-over-LA "KSFV-caTv6" (sic) logo loop. Honestly, it's pretty freaky looking.

Yo no hobblo a spaniel, but it doesn't sound like Guadalupe Radio either, although it is Spanish-language religious radio of some sort. Sound quality is a bit better, although still appallingly loud.

Check it out! For those of you not blessed with the ability to receive KSFV, I'll try to snag a screen-capture tomorrow.

EDIT: OK, they just ID'd themselves as Guadalupe Radio. I stand corrected.

phildaant

02-12-09, 03:05 AM

I had the same problem during the superbowl. And at other times. Seems to be wind for me I think. Santa ana conditions. Even if its not windy in my area, it affects the reception. Will get 100% and then it will drop out to 0, and then go right back up. Annoying.
Amazing, KNBC is now at 100% unlike before!! Don't recall being this high but...

KTLA = No lock and TSReader Lite v2.8.46e says "Failed to lock signal (a)" for a while. Then, I finally got a lock with 75%-80% signal strength. Weird.
KABC = Very low with 7%-28% signal strength. Lost episode was really bad (many dropouts). Had to watch VCR's clear analog recording (analog FTW).
KLCS = Low as usual (nothing new).

Others (KCBS, KCAL, KTTV, KCOP, KCET, POCE, etc.), looked OK.

Note, I haven't done anything with my DB2 bowtie antenna!

Is this still a height and/or multipath issue?

scott202

02-12-09, 03:06 AM

From my experience, 2.5Mbps is about as low as you can put an SD sub and have it still be watchable without massive pixelization. With a 19.393 Mbps stream, you can fit 7 subs in there without too much trouble (leaving room for audio and whatnot).

I wouldn't want to see more than 8 subs.

- Trip

You will see more sub-channels, the technology has improved greatly.

As a Broadcast Engineer directly involved with multi-channel testing and implementation, I have seen very good pictures are possible with 8 channels at the present time. The technology allowing this improvement is the advancements made with dual-pass encoding, statistical multiplexing, and the software underlying the processing. The speed of the most recent chip advances allows the video to be analyzed with the results further analyzed a second time, before the final encoded numbers are produced. The software has also been developed to harvest bits from areas of the picture that are less noticeable, such as the edges. The software now also has many processing properties, that further refine the video to make the encoding more efficient. The engineer has more and more tools in the software to fool the eye with the end result. Each channel can be customized individually and the configuration can change at any time. The statistical multiplexing can look at all the channels together, and determine which one deservers more bits, and which ones need less, and they do this during each and every frame of video!

You can thank your satellite providers, the cable companies, and the industry in general for the push to utilize any available bitstream for more channels versus less. There are limitations with MPEG2 though, and MPEG4 is a further improvement in the ability to reduce the needed bit stream. DirecTV has spearheaded more development here, and now their entire new system is based on using MPEG4 as much as possible. How many bits they are using for their HD channels is a closely guarded secret I believe. They are doing a good job and I give them a lot of credit for the ability to handle such an enormous number of channels with respectable quality.

Broadcasters will get a chance to use MPEG4 next with the upcoming ATSC Mobile standard. The equipment to produce these new bitsreams are almost ready for market. These were developed to be able to send a more easily received signal to mobile devices. But some engineers believe that manufacturers will start including MPEG4 into home TV sets, and once there are enough of them out there, we can send even move channels into the home, including multiple HD channels along with some SD channels.

The technology will continue to evolve, and it will include even higher resolutions in the future. Put your antennas up and do your best to insure you have enough signal strength or signal to noise from your antenna system.
DTV works fantastic as long as you get above the required 15-18 db minimum.

Trip in VA

02-12-09, 08:32 AM

I don't disagree with anything you said, just that I haven't personally seen anything under 2.5 Mbps look good. I have a station that just put in a stat muxer over Christmas time, and it's hard to tell the difference. The sub that hovers around 2.5 Mbps looks pretty crisp and the one that hovers around 2.0 Mbps has pixels in it, though is still watchable. The NBC station has had a stat muxer for a while and their two SD subs are at 1.5 Mbps or so each; the weather one, being mostly static imagery, is pretty watchable but the CW turns into a blur of pixels anytime anything moves.

I don't expect stations like KSCI and KXLA to be splurging on the latest encoders.

- Trip

narkspud

02-12-09, 09:50 AM

Amazing, KNBC is now at 100% unlike before!! Don't recall being this high but...

KTLA = No lock and TSReader Lite v2.8.46e says "Failed to lock signal (a)" for a while. Then, I finally got a lock with 75%-80% signal strength. Weird.
KABC = Very low with 7%-28% signal strength. Lost episode was really bad (many dropouts). Had to watch VCR's clear analog recording (analog FTW).
KLCS = Low as usual (nothing new).

Others (KCBS, KCAL, KTTV, KCOP, KCET, POCE, etc.), looked OK.

Note, I haven't done anything with my DB2 bowtie antenna!

Is this still a height and/or multipath issue?

Phil ...

With all due respect, the nightly reception reports are becoming tiresome.

Obviously that DB2 of yours is not going to cut it by itself in its current location. Are there trees in the way of the signals? Anything metal reflecting signals back at you? Close enough to a window? Are you sure your receiver is a sensitive one that works well in difficult signal conditions? Maybe there's something wrong with it? Maybe there's a loose connection somewhere?

Signal strength and signal quality - that's what you're trying to maximize. These are affected mainly by transmission strength and pattern, distance, direction, weather, reflections, and stuff in the way.

We want to be helpful, but you've got all the information we can give you, short of showing up at your house with professional signal strength meters. You're going to have to troubleshoot this on your own.

I'm sorry you're missing your digital recordings, but I can assure you that you will continue to do so unless you take further action. And until you do, these daily updates just aren't going to help.

phildaant

02-12-09, 10:23 AM

Phil ...

With all due respect, the nightly reception reports are becoming tiresome.

Obviously that DB2 of yours is not going to cut it by itself in its current location. Are there trees in the way of the signals? Anything metal reflecting signals back at you? Close enough to a window? Are you sure your receiver is a sensitive one that works well in difficult signal conditions? Maybe there's something wrong with it? Maybe there's a loose connection somewhere?

Signal strength and signal quality - that's what you're trying to maximize. These are affected mainly by transmission strength and pattern, distance, direction, weather, reflections, and stuff in the way.

We want to be helpful, but you've got all the information we can give you, short of showing up at your house with professional signal strength meters. You're going to have to troubleshoot this on your own.

I'm sorry you're missing your digital recordings, but I can assure you that you will continue to do so unless you take further action. And until you do, these daily updates just aren't going to help.

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3043/outsideviewiw8.jpg for two photographs -- I don't see any metal. Maybe the iron fence below me? Remember, the couples directly downstair get better reception with a Terk antenna (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21gxjlDsZwL._SS500_.jpg ) . It's in the SAME building (just one floor difference -- facing the same tree and they have more plants, a rusty iron fence, brick pillars, etc.)!

I checked for lose connections and they appear to be fine. Also, checked the screws and splitter (tried an old one and a RadioShack new one) too. I only have two HDTV receiver tuner cards (http://www.bbti.us/products_air2pc_atsc_pci.htm ).

In the past, it wasn't this bad.

HarrisonS

02-12-09, 10:30 AM

Thanks. Nothing good on. :D KTLA should reshow those old B&W shows like Twilight Zone, Munsters, 3 Stooges, etc. [grin]

I agree. Also, it would be nice if KTLA showed old movies as they once did. Nowadays I have many of these TV series and movies on DVD's. But there is still a lot of material that KTLA used to show that have never been released, in any video format! Some of these TV series are still shown on KDOC. As it is, I rarely watch KTLA these days.

phildaant

02-12-09, 10:33 AM

I agree. Also, it would be nice if KTLA showed old movies as they once did. Nowadays I have many of these TV series and movies on DVD's. But there is still a lot of material that KTLA used to show that have never been released, in any video format! Some of these TV series are still shown on KDOC. As it is, I rarely watch KTLA these days.I only watch Smallville and Beauty & The Geeks (heard it is coming back too) on KTLA.

scott202

02-12-09, 12:22 PM

I don't expect stations like KSCI and KXLA to be splurging on the latest encoders.

- Trip

The revenue generated by the subchannels easily pays for the latest encoders. Both stations have just installed the newest, best encoders.

RudyG

02-12-09, 12:44 PM

You will see more sub-channels, the technology has improved greatly.
This being closer to a fairytale rather than something from real world, I'll believe it when I see it. ;)
As a Broadcast Engineer directly involved with multi-channel testing and implementation, I have seen very good pictures are possible with 8 channels at the present time......
Perhaps we need to revisit the definition of "very good picture". :confused: Because at the moment all transmissions with subchannels look from terrible to unwatchable.

I don't mean to sound harsh Scott, and I appreciate your post. But multicasting is a pig. And regardless of how much make up one puts on it, it will NEVER look good.

Rudy

Trip in VA

02-12-09, 12:57 PM

The revenue generated by the subchannels easily pays for the latest encoders. Both stations have just installed the newest, best encoders.

I wouldn't have expected it, but that's good to know. Hopefully it'll let them provide lots of high-quality SD services.

- Trip

HoTatII

02-12-09, 01:59 PM

The revenue generated by the subchannels easily pays for the latest encoders. Both stations have just installed the newest, best encoders.

Now that's really a surprise to me, if true that is...:rolleyes:

Finding people, in my area at least, who truly understand what DTV is all about is tough enough. But when I ask any of them about more specific features involved like "sub-channels," "multicasting," and even those with some technical knowledge, "statistical multiplexing." I seem to invariably get nothing but blank stares from everyone.

HoTatII

02-12-09, 02:13 PM

This being closer to a fairytale rather than something from real world, I'll believe it when I see it. ;)

Perhaps we need to revisit the definition of "very good picture". :confused: Because at the moment all transmissions with subchannels look from terrible to unwatchable.

I don't mean to sound harsh Scott, and I appreciate your post. But multicasting is a pig. And regardless of how much make up one puts on it, it will NEVER look good.

Rudy

That's why I was rather surprised at the usually good PQ I was temporarily receiving from THIS TV on KTLA’s sub-channel 5.2. Granted I was only able to evaluate it based on a ‘70’s vintage movie being telecasted at the time before KTLA took down the channel for whatever reason. But from what I saw it did seem to be very good for a sub-channel and was anxious to see the TS reader data on its bit rate.

danki6x

02-12-09, 05:17 PM

phildaant

02-12-09, 05:20 PM

[QUOTE=phildaant;15803661]
I checked for lose connections and they appear to be fine. Also, checked the screws and splitter (tried an old one and a RadioShack new one) too. I only have two HDTV receiver tuner cards. QUOTE]
Did you try to bypass the splitter and check. Start with direct feed and keep adding things back until you find the issue. May even need to try another coax from antenna to TV (even temporary). /DanYeah, a few months ago. The only thing I haven't tried is replacing the coax cable on the DB2 bowtie antenna. Any ideas where I can get one (local stores preferred like RadioShack)?

I will try again this long weekend to play with the antennaeand see if I can get a combiner. Before I get a combiner from RadioShack, can I still test the rabbit ear antenna without DB2 connected? Or do I have to have both hooked up to fully test?

danki6x

02-12-09, 05:32 PM

Yeah, a few months ago. The only thing I haven't tried is replacing the coax cable on the DB2 bowtie antenna. Any ideas where I can get one (local stores preferred like RadioShack)?

I will try again this long weekend to play with the antennaeand see if I can get a combiner. Before I get a combiner from RadioShack, can I still test the rabbit ear antenna without DB2 connected? Or do I have to have both hooked up to fully test?
Don't know much about your set-up, just making sure you have done the obvious since many forget checking that first. Looks like the DB2 just have a coax connection. If you don't have a length of coax to go from antenna to TV already you can get at RS (or Home Depot or Lowes or Walmart, etc.). Common item. Just see how long piece you need before you go. If it works, you could replace other coax runs and add back in splitter until you are OK. I would get the UHF working with the DB2 and the VHF with the rabbit ears before you start combining. If they work separate and then not work together you have a lot of loss in the combiner (check signal strengths right before and after changes to get a ball park idea of changes). /Dan

phildaant

02-12-09, 05:34 PM

Don't know much about your set-up, just making sure you have done the obvious since many forget checking that first. Looks like the DB2 just have a coax connection. If you don't have a length of coax to go from antenna to TV already you can get at RS (or Home Depot or Lowes or Walmart, etc.). Common item. Just see how long piece you need before you go. If it works, you could replace other coax runs and add back in splitter until you are OK. I would get the UHF working with the DB2 and the VHF with the rabbit ears before you start combining. If they work separate and then not work together you have a lot of loss in the combiner (check signal strengths right before and after changes to get a ball park idea of changes). /DanOK. I will try that later.

phildaant

02-12-09, 05:58 PM

[QUOTE=phildaant;15803661]
I checked for lose connections and they appear to be fine. Also, checked the screws and splitter (tried an old one and a RadioShack new one) too. I only have two HDTV receiver tuner cards. QUOTE]
Did you try to bypass the splitter and check. Start with direct feed and keep adding things back until you find the issue. May even need to try another coax from antenna to TV (even temporary). /DanI was thinking. If it was a coax cable and splitter problem, wouldn't ALL my channels be having problems? It is only KABC (lately), KNBC (well, was), and KTLA (last night so far), and KLCS (been like that for a while) that have problems.

narkspud

02-12-09, 06:16 PM

I was thinking. If it was a coax cable and splitter problem, wouldn't ALL my channels be having problems? It is only KABC (lately), KNBC (well, was), and KTLA (last night so far), and KLCS (been like that for a while) that have problems.

Not necessarily, since not all signals are at equal strength and quality.

I notice that the tree in your pictures appears to be wider at your level than it would be for the folks downstairs. Perhaps it's blocking you and not them. Got a chainsaw?

phildaant

02-12-09, 06:20 PM

[QUOTE=phildaant;15807950]

Not necessarily.

I notice that the tree in your pictures appears to be wider at your level than it would be for the folks downstairs. Perhaps it's blocking you and not them. Got a chainsaw?I can't do anything about that tree since it is not mine. It's the neighbor's. I should take a photograph of the downstair too and share. I recall that helped a little for my antennae.

I know the the tree gets major trims to the trunks with a few leaves every other year. It's probably almost time.

Are you saying leaves can interfere? Even if one could put it in the attic on the roof or chimney, it wouldn't go high enough. That tree IS VERY TALL!!!!!!!

HoTatII

02-12-09, 06:20 PM

phildaant

02-12-09, 06:26 PM

Also, if you don’t mind me asking phildaant;

If in the end all else fails and getting the owner or management of your condo complex to install a good master roof-top aerial to feed all the housing units is out of the question. What is your situation access-wise and financially of just biting the bullet and bring in satellite, cable, or FIOS?Actually, it's a house but I don't own it (shared). Cable, sure (TWC) but have to pay for it and has compression for HD (doesn't cable require cable cards so I can't record to my PCs?) ;)), satellite (seen neighbors have it), and FIOS (non-existent here and can't even get DSL -- 20K ft.!).

Mark Wahlberg

02-12-09, 06:36 PM

HoTatII

02-12-09, 06:37 PM

narkspud

02-12-09, 07:01 PM

new to the OTA TV/HD thing, but I was wondering if it's just me or are Fox and ABC in HD choppy/weak? Fox especially, the sound skips and gets pixelated every few seconds

any suggestions?

edit: KCOP/13 is pretty much unwatchable as well

2, 4, 5, 9 are great though

Those two channels are on temporary DTV assignments and are troublesome for a lot of people. When - er - if the transition happens and they move to VHF where they belong, they should be better, provided you're getting clean analog signlas from them now.

phildaant

02-12-09, 08:12 PM

What’s the situation with getting the owner of the house to install a roof-top antenna? Should be easier to do since it is a house and not a multi-unit complex.Owners refused. :( Even if that was possible, would it still work with that tall tree in the way?

holl_ands

02-12-09, 11:27 PM

Actually, it's a house but I don't own it (shared). Cable, sure (TWC) but have to pay for it and has compression for HD (doesn't cable require cable cards so I can't record to my PCs?) ;)), satellite (seen neighbors have it), and FIOS (non-existent here and can't even get DSL -- 20K ft.!).
Basic Cable carries local network stations in HD via unencrypted QAM
carriers in addition to low-rez analog versions. All you need to record
to PC is USB Stick(s) or PC tuner card(s) with clear QAM capability.

CableCard is only required to receive encrypted DIGITAL channels
(above about CH40) and sometimes in CableCARD ready DTVs to
correctly "map" the channel numbers (don't ask....).

I haven't seen any report re compression of LOCAL HD channels on
TWC-SOCAL.....for sure we don't have it on TWC-San Diego.

Ask for price of TWC's "lifeline" Basic Cable service, which should be
bottom 30 to 40 channel numbers. [Price should be $15-25/mo.]
[TWC just changed their website to a dysfunctional mess....]

phildaant

02-13-09, 12:02 AM

Basic Cable carries local network stations in HD via unencrypted QAM
carriers in addition to low-rez analog versions. All you need to record
to PC is USB Stick(s) or PC tuner card(s) with clear QAM capability.

CableCard is only required to receive encrypted DIGITAL channels
(above about CH40) and sometimes in CableCARD ready DTVs to
correctly "map" the channel numbers (don't ask....).

I haven't seen any report re compression of LOCAL HD channels on
TWC-SOCAL.....for sure we don't have it on TWC-San Diego.

Ask for price of TWC's "lifeline" Basic Cable service, which should be
bottom 30 to 40 channel numbers. [Price should be $15-25/mo.]
[TWC just changed their website to a dysfunctional mess....]Is QAM the same one that OTA uses or is that something else? I use two HDTV tuner cards that connect to a standard coax cable to an antenna for OTA.

Dunno, $15-$25 is sort of expensive for basic TV. :/ What about the other channels like channel 50, 52, 56, and 58? 50 and 58 would be useful since I like PBS.

holl_ands

02-13-09, 12:24 AM

Is QAM the same one that OTA uses or is that something else? I use two HDTV tuner cards that connect to a standard coax cable to an antenna for OTA.

Dunno, $15-$25 is sort of expensive for basic TV. :/ What about the other channels like channel 50, 52, 56, and 58? 50 and 58 would be useful since I like PBS.
I was describing the remapped CABLE channel numbers, rather than
OTA channel numbers.....they ALL should be there.
Try to get into TWC website to see the channel list:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/customerservice/clu/clu.ashx
Wait for it.......wait.......it helps to STOP the webpage....
BTW: TWC website only provides prices for (encrypted) Digital Cable.
Clearly they don't want customers to know about the federally
mandated "BROADCAST-ONLY" option....nor even "BASIC"....

I had to check the "ALL" button at the bottom of the list to deselect
all checkmarks (weird....) and then check "BROADCAST" to see the
Analog list (Ch99 and below) and what appears to be the Clear QAM
list (above Ch99)....others in this thread should be able to confirm....

I was surprised to see TWC incorrectly used the term "BASIC CABLE" to
include all of the extra cost Analog channels beyond "BROADCAST",
such as ABCFamily, ESPN, FOXNews, Disney, MTV, etc.
They must sucker a lot of people into believing "BASIC" is the lowest cost tier!!!

OTA uses 8VSB ATSC modulation with 8 different amplitude levels,
ATSC max data rate about 19+ Mbps.

QAM-256 uses a combination of phase and amplitude, max data rate
about 38+ Mbps. Lower data rate QAM-64 is very rare anymore.

When you check USB Sticks and PCI Tuner Cards, you'll see many of the
newer ATSC devices also include QAM.

phildaant

02-13-09, 12:32 AM

I was describing the remapped CABLE channel numbers, rather than OTA
channel numbers.....they ALL should be there.
Try to get into TWC website to see the channel list:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/customerservice/clu/clu.ashx
Wait for it.......wait.......it helps to STOP the webpage....

OTA uses 8VSB ATSC modulation with 8 different amplitude levels,
ATSC max data rate about 19+ Mbps.

QAM-256 uses a combination of phase and amplitude, max data rate
about 38+ Mbps. Lower data rate QAM-64 is very rare anymore.Ah, thanks (still not happy with the prices). I grew up with rabbit ears and had little problems with analog feeds. Digital is so picky since you can't have between super clear and unwatchable videos. I am used to snowy pictures too that are watchable! :(

So what were all these talks about cable using compression in their HD feeds? Is that still true? I recalled reading OTA had the best HD quality compared to other TV feed methods. I know I can sometimes see pixels from compression and fast scenes (e.g., rain, stuff going fast) OTA.

holl_ands

02-13-09, 01:47 AM

Ah, thanks (still not happy with the prices). I grew up with rabbit ears and had little problems with analog feeds. Digital is so picky since you can't have between super clear and unwatchable videos. I am used to snowy pictures too that are watchable! :(

So what were all these talks about cable using compression in their HD feeds? Is that still true? I recalled reading OTA had the best HD quality compared to other TV feed methods. I know I can sometimes see pixels from compression and fast scenes (e.g., rain, stuff going fast) OTA.
Some COMCAST areas carry THREE HD channels per QAM, which results
in macroblocking. They were forced to do this due to delays in SDV
(Switched Digital Video) technology and regulatory and other hurdles in
trying to go to an (almost) ALL DIGITAL system. [TWC-SD uses SDV.]

But I don't have specific info for your area....
FWIW, 720p would be more tolerant of overcompression than 1080i.

However, as you have observed, OTA also has macroblocking issues,
due to overcompression on either the distribution system TO the stations
or due to too much capacity in the other OTA sub-channels.

If a fibre-optic feed is used from the station to TWC (like in San Diego),
then the signal would NOT be degraded by the other sub-channels.

So in some circumstances, the CABLE feed can be better and won't go
away when the station transmitter goes off the air....

phildaant

02-13-09, 07:52 AM

Some COMCAST areas carry THREE HD channels per QAM, which results
in macroblocking. They were forced to do this due to delays in SDV
(Switched Digital Video) technology and regulatory and other hurdles in
trying to go to an (almost) ALL DIGITAL system. [TWC-SD uses SDV.]

But I don't have specific info for your area....
FWIW, 720p would be more tolerant of overcompression than 1080i.

However, as you have observed, OTA also has macroblocking issues,
due to overcompression on either the distribution system TO the stations
or due to too much capacity in the other OTA sub-channels.

If a fibre-optic feed is used from the station to TWC (like in San Diego),
then the signal would NOT be degraded by the other sub-channels.

So in some circumstances, the CABLE feed can be better and won't go
away when the station transmitter goes off the air....Hmm I wonder how it is in 91745 area. I do recalled there was a major upgrade in this city back in 2003 for DOCSIS upgrade for Internet. I don't know if that includes TV.

RudyG

02-13-09, 12:56 PM

That's why I was rather surprised at the usually good PQ I was temporarily receiving from THIS TV on KTLA’s sub-channel 5.2. Granted I was only able to evaluate it based on a ‘70’s vintage movie being telecasted at the time before KTLA took down the channel for whatever reason. But from what I saw it did seem to be very good for a sub-channel and was anxious to see the TS reader data on its bit rate.
HoTat my comment was meant for all multicast channels for the given station. Assuming for a second that the picture on 5.2 will be "good", which is a stretch but we'll accept it for an example sake. This in turn will mean that the picture on the main channel 5.1 will have to degrade. OTA is stuck with an approximately 19 Mbps with MPEG2 compression. This when a decent HD broadcast requires close to 40 Mbps. So even at the start you are already behind the 8 ball. Then you compress it further and you get a pixellated and macroblocked mess that we are experiencing now. :(
MPEG4 for OTA is simply not a reality.

Rudy

danki6x

02-13-09, 04:56 PM

Actually, it's a house but I don't own it (shared). Cable, sure (TWC) but have to pay for it and has compression for HD (doesn't cable require cable cards so I can't record to my PCs?) ;)), satellite (seen neighbors have it), and FIOS (non-existent here and can't even get DSL -- 20K ft.!).
The local channels do include local PBS. Also I think I have been seeing basic cable (TWC) for $6/mo for a year. This is a promotion to get OTA people onto cable that are fearing the transition or do not have digital TVs. Would need to ask them if that includes unencrypted QAM, such as local HD (but the person you talk to may not have any idea what you are talking about). I don't see anyway they could block that to you anyway since it is not scrambled. /Dan

phildaant

02-13-09, 05:40 PM

Now I can get KABC's digital channel 53 back to 50-60% like I used to. Basically, I moved the DB2 bowtie antenna closer to the wall facing the mountains. I did have to sacrifice other channels' signal strengths like KLCS (can't lock on its signal, but then I rare watch that station and analog is really bad right now unlike before), KTTV (no longer 100%), KCBS (no longer 100%), etc.

I also noticed the antenna is really picky on what angle and direction it is facing. I am not sure if the rain is affecting what I am seeing right now too. I hope I don't have to tweak, move, and/or replace until digital change on 6/12/2009 so I can fully test and buy a new antenna and/or parts.

I borrowed a digital camera and took shots facing the mountains: http://alpha.zimage.com/~ant/temp/backyardshot.jpg to get an idea on my perspective.

holl_ands

02-13-09, 09:06 PM

The local channels do include local PBS. Also I think I have been seeing basic cable (TWC) for $6/mo for a year. This is a promotion to get OTA people onto cable that are fearing the transition or do not have digital TVs. Would need to ask them if that includes unencrypted QAM, such as local HD (but the person you talk to may not have any idea what you are talking about). I don't see anyway they could block that to you anyway since it is not scrambled. /Dan
In FCC ruling re Dual Analog/Digital Must Carry mandate, cable companies
were told (unless they were ALL-DIGITAL), they had to provide local
ANALOG networks as well as continue to provide DIGITAL (in Clear QAM).

There were NO counter arguments from cable providers claiming they
didn't have to follow the clearly established LAW re non-encryption
(or other blocking) of local networks (whether Analog or Digital).

If a Basic cable subscriber can't see Clear Digital local networks, call
the cable company re the missing channel and get them to FIX it.....

HoTatII

02-14-09, 03:47 AM

Owners refused. :( Even if that was possible, would it still work with that tall tree in the way?

While tree foliage can have some attenuation effects primarily at UHF frequencies, it really shouldn't be sufficient to totally obstruct the signal this way. When obstructing the line-of-sight (LOS) for the Ku/Ka band microwave transmissions used by Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), such a tree like that could completely block the signal, but not usually for terrestrial broadcast television.

Anyway, I think what your experiencing is just the spotty behavior of indoor antennas and your best alternative is TWC's "broadcast" cable package for analog/unencrypted QAM feeding your PC tuner cards since the home owners there will not permit a rooftop aerial.

I take it the owners will a least be tolerate enough to permit CATV access to your location? :rolleyes:

HarrisonS

02-14-09, 11:07 AM

While tree foliage can have some attenuation effects primarily at UHF frequencies, it really shouldn't be sufficient to totally obstruct the signal this way...

That is encouraging. I am going to see if I can find some quantitative data about tree foliage attenuation. In my case, I have a huge rubber tree directly between my antennas and Mt. Wilson. I have often wondered how much effect this has on signals. In any case, this problem should be mitigated somewhat after the changeover, since the highest UHF frequencies, where attenuation would the greatest, will be vacated. Those stations will be moving either to VHF or to lower UHF frequencies.

phildaant

02-14-09, 01:06 PM

While tree foliage can have some attenuation effects primarily at UHF frequencies, it really shouldn't be sufficient to totally obstruct the signal this way. When obstructing the line-of-sight (LOS) for the Ku/Ka band microwave transmissions used by Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), such a tree like that could completely block the signal, but not usually for terrestrial broadcast television.

Anyway, I think what your experiencing is just the spotty behavior of indoor antennas and your best alternative is TWC's "broadcast" cable package for analog/unencrypted QAM feeding your PC tuner cards since the home owners there will not permit a rooftop aerial.

I take it the owners will a least be tolerate enough to permit CATV access to your location? :rolleyes:Yes, and satellite dish but they obviously cost $$$. OTA is free (no subscriptions). ;)

phildaant

02-14-09, 01:09 PM

That is encouraging. I am going to see if I can find some quantitative data about tree foliage attenuation. In my case, I have a huge rubber tree directly between my antennas and Mt. Wilson. I have often wondered how much effect this has on signals. In any case, this problem should be mitigated somewhat after the changeover, since the highest UHF frequencies, where attenuation would the greatest, will be vacated. Those stations will be moving either to VHF or to lower UHF frequencies.Rubber tree? A fake one? Seriously?

HoTatII

02-14-09, 02:22 PM

Yes, and satellite dish but they obviously cost $$$. OTA is free (no subscriptions). ;)

Well sure, of course I realize that OTA television, analog or digital, is free;

And far be it from me to try and encourage people to create another monthly bill for themselves (especially in today's economy) on this matter when there are free alternatives available. But in your particular situation in order to get this free material, at least reliably, the home owners there are going to have to work with you in installing a good rooftop aerial since indoor antennas may never be able to get the job done on a consistent basis.

However, as you said the owners refuse to do this so where does that leave you as a viable alternative other than TWC's broadcast CATV package or continue to live with more of your present hit and miss indoor antenna solutions?

narkspud

02-14-09, 03:12 PM

Rubber tree? A fake one? Seriously?

:rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_tree

phildaant

02-14-09, 03:17 PM

:rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_treeAh, thanks. I didn't know that name existed for a real tree species. Now I know where this quote came from "Everyone knows an ant can't move a rubber tree plant." --Motto of FTL Foundation (in Isaac Asimov book). :D Thanks!

narkspud

02-14-09, 04:01 PM

Ah, thanks. I didn't know that name existed for a real tree species. Now I know where this quote came from "Everyone knows an ant can't move a rubber tree plant." --Motto of FTL Foundation (in Isaac Asimov book). :D Thanks!

:rolleyes: again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q3Y0yB0Egc

phildaant

02-14-09, 05:04 PM

:rolleyes: again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q3Y0yB0EgcYeah, I have seen that clip before. Thanks. We're OT now. :D

HarrisonS

02-14-09, 05:10 PM

Rubber tree? A fake one? Seriously?

No, it is a real tree, really. Its botanical name is Ficus elastica, and the common name derives from the fact that it was the tree from which natural latex was extracted.

TeddyR

02-14-09, 08:37 PM

Yes, and satellite dish but they obviously cost $$$. OTA is free (no subscriptions). ;)

Legal Free To Air satellite availibility exists though it is difficult to come by the details. There is an upfront cost for the dish, rotor, reciever and installation, but it definitly has its benifit... :-) [price, hundreds of channels, etc]..

http://www.tech-faq.com/free-to-air-satellite.shtml
http://www.ftalist.com/master.htm
http://americansatellitedistributors.com/Free-to-air/Free-to-Air_satellite.html

phildaant

02-14-09, 08:53 PM

Legal Free To Air satellite availibility exists though it is difficult to come by the details. There is an upfront cost for the dish, rotor, reciever and installation, but it definitly has its benifit... :-) [price, hundreds of channels, etc]..

http://www.tech-faq.com/free-to-air-satellite.shtml
http://www.ftalist.com/master.htm
http://americansatellitedistributors.com/Free-to-air/Free-to-Air_satellite.htmlNice, I wonder if you can mount this dish indoor. IIRC, one has to face north direction which is a big hill. Not sure how well that works.

oc-rdx

02-14-09, 09:09 PM

5.2 is back. Screen page says "This TV" coming soon.

jeff2631

02-14-09, 09:24 PM

http://img11.imagevenue.com/loc1110/th_64941_ktla2009feb14_122_1110lo.jpg (http://img11.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=64941_ktla2009feb14_122_1110lo.jpg) http://img190.imagevenue.com/loc793/th_65093_0214_H18M18_CH5-5_TheTube_122_793lo.jpg (http://img190.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=65093_0214_H18M18_CH5-5_TheTube_122_793lo.jpg)

narkspud

02-14-09, 09:25 PM

Probably meaningless with a slide up, but 5.2's bitrate is showing up on EyeTV as around 900 kbps. That won't do ....

5.1 is between 14 and 16 Mbps.

phildaant

02-15-09, 06:55 PM

Well sure, of course I realize that OTA television, analog or digital, is free;

And far be it from me to try and encourage people to create another monthly bill for themselves (especially in today's economy) on this matter when there are free alternatives available. But in your particular situation in order to get this free material, at least reliably, the home owners there are going to have to work with you in installing a good rooftop aerial since indoor antennas may never be able to get the job done on a consistent basis.

However, as you said the owners refuse to do this so where does that leave you as a viable alternative other than TWC's broadcast CATV package or continue to live with more of your present hit and miss indoor antenna solutions?FYI. TWC's basic cable broadcast is 50 bucks a month according to http://www.timewarnerla.com/pricingguides/PDFs_2009/0020F-PL-0208.pdf. Ouch! :(

WackyPacks

02-15-09, 08:19 PM

I think the person was talking about broadcast basic, not basic cable. Broadcast basic is $13.89 + various taxes. You can see the difference on their channel lineup webpage.

holl_ands

02-15-09, 09:34 PM

It's a challenge to find ANYTHING on TWC's new and deproved website....
including the above non-functional link....

FYIW: The following link DID work for me:
http://www.timewarnerla.com/pricingguides/

"Broadcast" ranges from under $14....but can be higher, such as $24 for Temecula.
Don't confuse it with "Basic Cable", which includes "Broadcast" plus dozens of analog pay channels.

phildaant

02-15-09, 10:17 PM

holl_ands

02-15-09, 10:53 PM

Yeah, the site redesign sucks. However, PDF didn't show the channels. Only prices and labels. Looks like $13.89. Doesn't that still require a box from TWC too?
Since network channels are prohibited from being encrypted, NO BOX needed
to receive either the Analog versions or the Clear QAM versions listed in their
"Broadcast" channel list. Of course you'll need Clear QAM capability to
see HD network channels and other digital channels (above Ch99).

Clear QAM is built into some DTVs, some USB Sticks/PCI Cards for PCs
and some external ATSC OTA HD-STBs....but certainly not ALL of them.

holl_ands

02-15-09, 11:11 PM

Here's zipcode entry to find TWC channel lineups:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/Localization/Division.ashx?tid=1
To see just "Broadcast", click "All" to DESELECT ALL channels and then click on "Broadcast".

Click on "Basic" to see additional channels you get for $50/mo.

phildaant

02-16-09, 12:06 AM

Since network channels are prohibited from being encrypted, NO BOX needed
to receive either the Analog versions or the Clear QAM versions listed in their
"Broadcast" channel list. Of course you'll need Clear QAM capability to
see HD network channels and other digital channels (above Ch99).

Clear QAM is built into some DTVs, some USB Sticks/PCI Cards for PCs
and some external ATSC OTA HD-STBs....but certainly not ALL of them.Hmm, looks like my old HDTV tuner cards can't do QAM from cable for HD according to http://www.bbti.us/products_air2pc_atsc_pci.htm ... :(

phildaant

02-16-09, 12:09 AM

holl_ands

02-16-09, 12:13 AM

Keep clicking on "All"...may take a couple clicks....

phildaant

02-16-09, 01:56 AM

Keep clicking on "All"...may take a couple clicks....Thanks. Ugh, very annoying Web site design especially on a slow PC. Blah!

Follow-up on my DB2 bowtie antenna feed issue. I moved my antenna AGAIN since I was having problems with digital KTLA 5 and 7 channels when I checked at around 7:30 PM PST, etc. Even missed part of the new HD Simpsons episode (ugh!). I noticed I had a room in my close on its high shelf (highest spot in my room). So I had to rewire my coax cables and move my bowtie antenna. I am getting much better signals than before (e.g., KABC is 70%!!). I didn't see any dropouts, but we'll see (no more please!). I hope I don't have to change it again! Even cooler is I get to hide my ugly bowtie antenna, but the cables are still ugly since they're all over place to my PC's two HDTV tuners and VCR (to the old CRT TV).

Note that I am still using the splitters, no combiners, no rabbit ears, etc. Also, I noticed analog channels for KCBS2, KNBC4, and KTLA5 are somewhat viewable now (not perfect clear).

Still can't get KLCS's digital channel but its analog isn't bad (fussy). Bah, don't care for that one.

Speaking of The Simpsons' HD episode. Did anyone notice the music was really soft but the sound effects and voices were loud? This is noticeable in the introduction. I wonder if my 4.1 speaker is wacked or FOX is having issues?

HarrisonS

02-17-09, 10:05 AM

What happened to KCBS last night? Normally, it is one of the strongest stations, and yet last night it was unwatchable. It was mostly just a series of frozen pixellated images. What is so weird is that it was the only station that I found to be not coming in perfectly. Even weak stations like KCET and KTTV were coming in 100% solid! I suspect that they must have been operating at drastically reduced power, for some reason.

narkspud

02-17-09, 11:37 AM

Couldn't sleep at around 3:45 this morning, and had the interesting experience of seeing a screen full of pixelation and green blocks on KPXN's analog channel.

They must've been having trouble with their STL. The digital was perfect.

oc-rdx

02-17-09, 11:19 PM

According to today's OC Register, KHIZ channel 64 will be the only local station turning off their analog signal tonight. I don't receive this station in Irvine.

VenturaTVViewer

02-18-09, 11:33 AM

Turned off analog last night. Moving one of my antennas to have two pointed towards Santa Barbara. On digital is 3.1, 3.2. My bowtie is rusted due to the rain, think that is the problem. Wondering if I add to my bowtie some aluminum foil if that will make it more directional towards the area I am interested in.

Still getting Los Angeles channels on analog.

GPowers

02-18-09, 12:20 PM

The digital cut over has come and gone. Today 2/18/09 would have be a total digital day. Now we need to wait until June.

HoTatII

02-18-09, 02:44 PM

The digital cut over has come and gone. Today 2/18/09 would have be a total digital day. Now we need to wait until June.

Yep…

That’s true, and what has the great Los Angeles #2 DMA got to show for the DTV transition so far? A paltry three small former analog UHF stations fully converted over. Two of which actually serve the Inland Empire and not the greater L.A area. KVMD-DT 23 (Licensed to Twenty-nine Palms and serving the I.E.), which has been exclusively digital for quite some time now. KJLA-DT 49, (Los Angeles), and KHIZ-DT 44 (Licensed for Barstow, CA. and serving the I.E).

Very impressive...NOT! :mad:

narkspud

02-18-09, 02:58 PM

HoTatII

02-18-09, 03:57 PM

KJLA (57, licensed to Ventura) has technically been exclusively digital for some time now as well. However, the overwhelming majority of their analog viewership has always watched them on Channel 33, their Mt. Wilson analog translator that is still very much on the air as I type this.

Which explains why they felt able to go exclusively digital so early. :)

Barstow is the only station that bailed yesterday. Or so they say. I can't get them here so I don't know for sure what they did.

Well no, I did not mean to imply that KJLA flashed-cut to digital on 2/17 in my prior post. I was trying to say that in total summation “what has the L.A. DMA got to show so far for the entire digital TV transition both pre-/and now post 2/17/09?” A measly three former UHF analog stations fully transitioned over, with two of them serving the I.E.

And the same here in South L.A., I cannot receive any of the I.E. stations, KHIZ, KVMD, or KVCR (PBS). My antenna, while high gain directional, is fixed mounted toward Mt. Wilson. I considered investing in an antenna rotator, but did not consider it a worthwhile investment just to have the possibility of picking up a few additional channels like these. Especially since I can receive them via DirecTV’s local channel standard definition feeds. Though not in HD of course and no sub-channels.

oc-rdx

02-18-09, 04:34 PM

Isn't KVMD was a sub channel on 44 & 57?

HoTatII

02-18-09, 05:01 PM

Isn't KVMD was a sub channel on 44 & 57?

Yes it is actually;

On KXLA-44/UHF-51 sub-channel 44-2, and KJLA-57/UHF-49 on sub-channel 57-8. Although the KXLA sub-channel for KVMD 44-2, is blank right now for some reason. It’s not indicating a “No Signal” condition. Just blank as though there is just a “color black” or some other null signal being broadcast there at the moment.

narkspud

02-18-09, 05:11 PM

Isn't KVMD was a sub channel on 44 & 57?

It's carried there, but it is also a "real" station licensed to Twentynine Palms, on Channel 23.1 (23). It was the first station in the US to kill analog, on June 1, 2003.

According to the ever-reliable Wikipedia, KVMD carries 44 and 57 on its subchannels. Fair's fair.

HarrisonS

02-19-09, 10:12 AM

Yesterday, I did a re-scan on buth of the TV's that I am currently using. As expected, I saw no changes, except for a few more subchannels here and there. No stations have moved, and there were no new stations.

narkspud

02-20-09, 10:19 AM

Does anybody know if KFLA-LD (channel 8.1) is still on the air?

They've never been a very reliable signal here, but they seem to have vanished completely.

HarrisonS

02-20-09, 11:55 AM

Does anybody know if KFLA-LD (channel 8.1) is still on the air?

They've never been a very reliable signal here, but they seem to have vanished completely.

I don't know, but it very likely may just be propagation conditions. In my experience, longer distance propagation is usually best in the summer and fall when there is a good inversion layer. I have never picked it up, since, to date, I only have UHF antennas, but I hope to have my VHF antenna, a Winegard a YA-1713, up in another week or two. We will have to try for it then, though success may have to wait until later in the year.

narkspud

02-20-09, 11:58 AM

I don't know, but it very likely may just be propagation conditions. In my experience, longer distance propagation is usually best in the summer and fall when there is a good inversion layer. I have never picked it up, since, to date, I only have UHF antennas, but I hope to have my VHF antenna, a Winegard a YA-1713 up in another week or two. We will have to try for it then, though success may have to wait until later in the year.

Actually, the good inversion layer always prevented me from getting KFLA. San Diego stomped all over them. I generally can only get them in the winter. Which is why I'm surprised they seem to have vanished.

Trip in VA

02-20-09, 01:06 PM

Remember that KFMB-DT flash-cut their analog to digital on channel 8. That signal may be effecting reception differently now.

- Trip

phildaant

02-20-09, 11:51 PM

Did KTTV forget to set HD again for tonight's Sarah Connor Chronicles episode? I wonder if Dollhouse will be in SD too. :(

--

KTTV finally went HD until its 10:00 PM PST news. :( So what's up?

Falcon_77

02-21-09, 11:56 AM

According to today's OC Register, KHIZ channel 64 will be the only local station turning off their analog signal tonight. I don't receive this station in Irvine.

Can anyone confirm that this station actually ended analog operations? Looking at its TV Fool coverage area, it would probably have to be someone in the high desert area, though some parts of Riverside and Corona can probably see enough to tell.

oc-rdx

02-22-09, 07:16 PM

Mt. Wilson/San Gabriel Mountains Panorama

As I see many (most?) antennas not pointed to Mt. Wilson, especially in OC areas, I thought I would post an image of the mountains, showing where Mt. Wilson is located.

I have been wanting to do this for a while and while I didn't choose the best day, at least enough is visible here for ID purposes. Most of the time it's not as easy to see Mt. Wilson from OC.

If I get a chance, I will try again on a better day, but I had already put this off for several months (mostly by forgetting my camera on the good days).

In addition to the attachment, a full resolution image (354kB) can be found here:

http://www.rabbitears.info/ss/LA/LA-Panorama.jpg

I should note that there are cases when the antenna would not be pointed to the towers, due to reflections, multi-path issues, etc., but trying the actual direction first is a good start.

This composite picture was taken from the Newport Coast area.

I rode my bicycle over Newport Coast Drive this afternoon. The mountains were very clear, so I made an effort to find Mt Wilson, based on your picture. I could actually see some towers up there, all the way from Newport. The tops of the mountains were very clear due to the Santa Anas. With the high clouds & snow, you could see all the contours & details.

rtedwards

02-22-09, 10:38 PM

What would be a good indoor antenna for Eagle Rock?

70runner

02-24-09, 06:30 PM

HoTatII

02-24-09, 06:58 PM

70runner

02-24-09, 08:02 PM

Yea, thats what I meant to say 4.1. Not surprisingly it isn't a KNBC problem.

oc-rdx

02-24-09, 08:59 PM

Does anybody know if KFLA-LD (channel 8.1) is still on the air?

They've never been a very reliable signal here, but they seem to have vanished completely.

Both my sisters live in Woodbridge, in Irvine. They both have antennas sitting in the rafters in their garages. One still picks up KFLA. The other one says that the picture breaks up too much to watch it.

HoTatII

02-25-09, 04:43 AM

Both my sisters live in Woodbridge, in Irvine. They both have antennas sitting in the rafters in their garages. One still picks up KFLA. The other one says that the picture breaks up too much to watch it.

Yes, the sister who can receive KFLA but notices that it often breaks up to the point of being unwatchable is my essential problem with this station as well. With exception of my PC’s ATSC tuner (an AverMedia M780 which can’t receive the station at all for some reason) I can get a decent signal level pretty consistently from KFLA-LD, in spite of it being low power and having a large null in the south of its radiation pattern. But the PQ is simply dreadful along with relatively frequent occurrences of pixilation. And the sound is also generally poor and out of lip-sync on many occasions. It's sort of a shame too since I enjoy classic films sometimes such as a number which KFLA "attempts" :rolleyes: to broadcast.

Outside of these few "minor" technical problems though its a great station... :D

HarrisonS

02-25-09, 10:26 AM

chmilar

02-25-09, 12:59 PM

HarrisonS

02-25-09, 01:09 PM

I have also lost 4.1 on my Pioneer PRO-111fd!

A full rescan finds all channels, including 4.2 and 4.4, but no 4.1. All my other tuners have no problem with 4.1. This has been happening for a few days.

Bizarre indeed. I just turned on my PRO-150FD and 4.1 was there, rock solid as usual. I would have thought that the 8G and 9G tuners would be identical! :confused:

70runner

02-25-09, 10:26 PM

I have also lost 4.1 on my Pioneer PRO-111fd!

A full rescan finds all channels, including 4.2 and 4.4, but no 4.1. All my other tuners have no problem with 4.1. This has been happening for a few days.

Thats the odd part...my tuner is also picking up 4.2 and 4.4, but not 4.1. According to antennaweb 4.1 (KNBC) is a green zone station from me (near Riverside) = medium multi-directional with amplification if cable run is over 20ft (mine is about 50ft). Maybe my 10yr old rooftop needs a refresh.

The Pioneer tech rep tried 2 TVs at his site (Long Beach I believe) and neither could pick up 4.1. Maybe KNBC is mucking around with their transmitter?

Another thing which suggests a marginal signal condition...I was able to add Ch4 on the analog tuner, however, it is noisier than the other primary locals (2, 5, 7) with considerable ghosting. I have clear LOS to Mt Wilson with no large structures nearby.

narkspud

02-26-09, 09:25 AM

KNBC is lovely here on 5 different brands of tuners.

HarrisonS

02-26-09, 10:23 AM

...The Pioneer tech rep tried 2 TVs at his site (Long Beach I believe) and neither could pick up 4.1. Maybe KNBC is mucking around with their transmitter?

This whole KNBC situation is baffling. Previously, I would have said this was impossible! One would think that if you got one subchannel, you would gat all of the subchannels of a particular station. Perhaps there is some sort of digitlal word or bit that can be used to specify which specific subchannels are visible or invisible under certain circumstances. And, as you say, they have been messing around with this information.

VenturaTVViewer

02-26-09, 10:33 AM

Analog does not have programming right now. Is flashing the following message:

Attention 005
Your smart card does not have authorization to view or order this program. Please wait or channel up or down.

It then goes to current date/time. Current program that is on, and time left of the program.

Looked at TBN website. Couldn't find anything. Does anyone know what this means?

HarrisonS

02-26-09, 10:42 AM

KNBC is lovely here on 5 different brands of tuners.

Just curious, but what brands are your 5 tuners? So far, this problem seems to affect only Pioneer Elite sets, and only the 9G (2009) models. I have an 8G (2008) Pioneer Elite model and can get 4.1 just fine!

BTW, I also have a Samsung DST-H260F set top box in a different room connected to a different display, and connected to a different antenna and it picks up 4.1 perfectly too.

Falcon_77

02-26-09, 11:13 AM

What would be a good indoor antenna for Eagle Rock?

I would suggest running a plot on TV Fool to check your reception prospects. If all the signals you want aren't in green, then an indoor antenna isn't likely to work.

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29

Also, there is an indoor antenna review thread, located here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779

For the LA area, we will need both UHF and upper-VHF (7-13) capabilities, but I haven't seen much in the way of indoor VHF antennas except for rabbit ears.

narkspud

02-26-09, 11:36 AM

Just curious, but what brands are your 5 tuners? So far, this problem seems to affect only Pioneer Elite sets, and only the 9G (2009) models. I have an 8G (2008) Pioneer Elite model and can get 4.1 just fine!

Channel Master, Zenith/LG (a CECB and a DVR), Sansonic (not recommended), and computer-based tuners - EyeTV (a 500 and a hybrid) and Pinnacle. All are receiving the signal off-the-air. I'm looking at 4.1 at work right now (on the EyeTV Hybrid) where it's one of the only stations I can get.

I feel your pain, though. There was a time in there when KOCE's 50.1 was a stuttery, pixelly mess on the LG DVR but perfect on everything else. I could hook the LG up to a DVHS deck, and it would be perfect when watched through the DVHS's firewire port but unwatchable from the LG it was using as its source!

Most likely KNBC just did something to their encoding that that particular model of Pioneer doesn't care for. Always an aggravating situation, since no doubt each outfit will accuse the other of causing the problem, when it's obviously a combo of both.

HarrisonS

02-26-09, 12:32 PM

...I feel your pain, though...

Most likely KNBC just did something to their encoding that that particular model of Pioneer doesn't care for. Always an aggravating situation, since no doubt each outfit will accuse the other of causing the problem, when it's obviously a combo of both.

Not my pain, at least. I am getting 4.1 just fine, even on my Pioneer, which is a one year earlier model than the models having the problem. I agree that KNBC has probably been tampering with their encoding, and the 2009 Pioneer models are sensitive to this, but not earlier Pioneers, and not other brands. I had thought that the 2009 and 2008 Pioneers had identical tuners, but not quite, it seems.

By the way, thank you for listing your tuner models! :)

chmilar

02-26-09, 12:36 PM

HarrisonS

02-26-09, 12:52 PM

The KNBC 4.1 problem is especially interesting since 4.1, 4.2, and 4.4 are all multiplexed into the same data stream. So the Pioneer is definitely receiving the datastream for 4.1, but it is deciding that the data is invalid.

Two days ago, I applied the Pioneer's firmware update to my 111fd, but the problem persists.

Too bad that the problem persists, but I think at least that you have put your finger on the problem. I think that a simple, future firmware update could fix it!

coyoteaz

02-26-09, 03:24 PM

HoTatII

02-26-09, 04:14 PM

KXAS in Dallas (another NBC O&O) was recently messing around with passing AFD information in their stream. According to the engineer who posted in the local forum, some TVs had problems with this and would not show the .1 channel even though .2 and .3 came in fine. He only mentioned Sony TVs, but it might be related.

Interesting, certainly a possiblity;

I was just reading a lot of on-line technical articles about the Automatic Format description (AFD) feature. And while it is a feature that digital TVs equipped to recognize it may eventually take advantage of in the future to automatically optimize the displayed picture on a particular set based on the signal's received format and that of the end viewer’s TV display settings without viewers having to do so manually. I would guess it is primarily being done at the present to allow program distributer's HD down-conversion equipment such as used by cable and satellite providers to automatically set the desired format for the down-rezz’ed version of their off-air HD signal to produce either a "center-crop" or "letter-box" standard definition feed for their respective subscribers.

Thus I imagine the engineering staffs of these stations may take issue with your labeling it as "messing around," or "HarrisonS' " "tampering" with the data stream ;) . But as you say, this could be indeed causing an unintentional conflict with some manufactures’ ATSC tuners as the Pioneer Elite 2009 series.

70runner

02-26-09, 05:29 PM

The KNBC 4.1 problem is especially interesting since 4.1, 4.2, and 4.4 are all multiplexed into the same data stream. So the Pioneer is definitely receiving the datastream for 4.1, but it is deciding that the data is invalid.

Two days ago, I applied the Pioneer's firmware update to my 111fd, but the problem persists.

After I plugged in my old Tosh dig tuner and pulled in 4.1 perfectly, I called Pio again today. They are definitely aware of the 4.1 problem now, believe its unique to the 9Gs, but still investigating. The Pio rep said the engineering dept is working it and he anticipates a firmware update to correct it.

chmilar

02-26-09, 05:41 PM

I'm going to call Pio again and see if I can talk to their tuner guy.

Let us know what you learn from Pioneer. I lost 4.1 before the firmware update, so it is not the fault of the new firmware. My best guess is that KNBC changed something in the formatting of the data for 4.1, or in the metadata, that is causing the tuner to choke on it. Hopefully another firmware update can fix it....

Luckily for me, the TV's tuner is not my primary method of viewing. I usually record shows on a computer using an HDHomeRun, and watch later. The HDHomeRun is still seeing 4.1 just fine.

jeff2631

02-27-09, 01:24 AM

This TV is on KTLA 5.2 now.
http://img34.imagevenue.com/loc124/th_16071_ktla2009feb26_122_124lo.jpg (http://img34.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=16071_ktla2009feb26_122_124lo.jpg)

HarrisonS

02-27-09, 10:52 AM

After I plugged in my old Tosh dig tuner and pulled in 4.1 perfectly, I called Pio again today. They are definitely aware of the 4.1 problem now, believe its unique to the 9Gs, but still investigating. The Pio rep said the engineering dept is working it and he anticipates a firmware update to correct it.

That is exactly what I was going to suggest. Anyone with a spare set top box lying around can, as a stopgap, use it to bypass the problem. It is fortunate that Pioneer USA just happens to have its headquarters right here in the LA area where they can investigate the problem! Anyway, keep us all posted on what develops; I know I am very curious!

leemell

02-27-09, 01:41 PM

That is exactly what I was going to suggest. Anyone with a spare set top box lying around can, as a stopgap, use it to bypass the problem. It is fortunate that Pioneer USA just happens to have its headquarters right here in the LA area where they can investigate the problem! Anyway, keep us all posted on what develops; I know I am very curious!

All of channel 4 and any other DTV station sub-channels are just one data stream. The sub-streams are identified in the PSIP info. If KNBC messed with the PSIP, it is perfectly possible that one or more subchannels may not be recognized by a particular receiver software by the folks on one side of the interface or the other. This usually traceable to different interpretations of the interface specifications. I had that problem with KCET about three years ago. In this case it affected only the Echostar 6000 receivers. I had some lengthy conversations with KCET engineering and it turned out that they had changed the way it identified their channels and it was no longer quite right. A change in the PSIP was made, and everybody was happy again.

benway

03-01-09, 02:23 PM

yes- I was watching a film on there the other day, then they lost picture, and just had the "This TV coming soon" card on scree, but with audio from the movie.

as of this am, still have movie audio/and "this tv" card.

This TV is on KTLA 5.2 now.
http://img34.imagevenue.com/loc124/th_16071_ktla2009feb26_122_124lo.jpg (http://img34.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=16071_ktla2009feb26_122_124lo.jpg)

trumptman

03-01-09, 02:37 PM

HoTatII

03-01-09, 04:58 PM

yes- I was watching a film on there the other day, then they lost picture, and just had the "This TV coming soon" card on scree, but with audio from the movie.

as of this am, still have movie audio/and "this tv" card.

Yep;

Same here, audio only and no picture outside of the graphic. Shame too as I was looking forward to watching some of the scheduled movies over the weekend. You know I try to keep a forgiving attitude in these matters treating them largely as growing pains given the technical complexities of the DTV revolution. But I just hate it when its compounded by a relatively community unresponsive station like KTLA. As I can't find any call in numbers or e-mail addresses for their engineering staff. And the switchboard is not even answering, at least on the weekends anyhow. :rolleyes:

narkspud

03-01-09, 06:31 PM

HoTatII

03-01-09, 07:16 PM

Do Tribune stations still have engineering staffs?

In this economic climate I really wouldn't be surprised if they didn't :p . But somebody's got to be responsible for maintaining the equipment.

Falcon_77

03-02-09, 11:02 AM

KHIZ has finally confirmed that they ended analog operations on 2/17.

The snow on my TV's for channel 64, doesn't seem to have changed... It still has some noise in it from somewhere, but is not discernible.

Falcon_77

03-02-09, 11:04 AM

But I just hate it when its compounded by a relatively community unresponsive station like KTLA. As I can't find any call in numbers or e-mail addresses for their engineering staff. And the switchboard is not even answering, at least on the weekends anyhow. :rolleyes:

I noticed this problem this morning but didn't realize the audio was from part of a movie. KTLA has never responded to any of my e-mails, which puts them in the cellar for customer service, along with the Fox stations.

HoTatII

03-02-09, 06:51 PM

OK;

Well …FWIW, from a viewer services rep. at KTLA who was manning the switchboard (and finally answered the phone! :mad:). The information given to him by their technical staff there is that "THIS TV" on sub-channel 5-2 has not officially begun broadcasting yet and is still under-going further testing and evaluation. The sporadic times we are seeing programs on the sub-channel are actually for test purposes that we just happen to tune in on. And during the latest test period before the past weekend break someone simply forgot to disconnect the audio feed along with the video after the test was completed. Thus the reason for the still graphic with program audio still running over the weekend.

Of course since the audio is still on today though, this claim is confusing :confused:. But as I said you can take this for what it is worth from a layman answering the phones and just passing the five.

Whatever the case though, they have had a lot of calls about this issue and are well aware of the problem.

narkspud

03-02-09, 07:15 PM

Whatever the case though, they have had a lot of calls about this issue and are well aware of the problem.

Your call is very important to them ......

phildaant

03-03-09, 01:44 PM

I noticed this problem this morning but didn't realize the audio was from part of a movie. KTLA has never responded to any of my e-mails, which puts them in the cellar for customer service, along with the Fox stations.Yeah, none of the stations (e.g., KTLA, KTTV, KABC) seem to respond to my e-mails anymore. They used to like 2-3 years ago! It's frustrating because I have speech and hearing impediments, and can't use the telephone. :(

VenturaTVViewer

03-04-09, 11:05 AM

GPowers

03-04-09, 01:15 PM

Found the sweet spot for Los Angeles channels analog. Finally. After many years. Get quite a few stations, especially the high power ones. Pretty good for 70 miles and a 500 foot hill. We'll see about digital.

Wondering if people have found that their sweet spot for digital is any different than the sweet spot for analog.

If your sweet spot is the direction of your antenna, than it should be the same for DTV. As most of the transmitters are still in the same place as analog.

holl_ands

03-04-09, 05:09 PM

Found the sweet spot for Los Angeles channels analog. Finally. After many years. Get quite a few stations, especially the high power ones. Pretty good for 70 miles and a 500 foot hill. We'll see about digital.

Wondering if people have found that their sweet spot for digital is any different than the sweet spot for analog.
So which way are you pointing your antenna?
Towards Mt Wilson or catching a bounce off nearby hills???

VenturaTVViewer

03-04-09, 05:54 PM

Towards a side of the hill. Not pointed direct to the signal.

HoTatII

03-05-09, 09:25 AM

Anyone notice that KCOP-13's display channel is now listed as "66-3" instead of the normal "13-1," which is the same as their actual RF digital channel number? (according to RabbitEars.info that is) I don't really mind this in cases where I can rescan the off-air channels to reacquire the signal, but when you have devices like my DirecTV DVR AM21 OTA tuner module or the PC's guide for Windows Media Center which does not have an OTA scan capability, but relies on the database from Tribune Media Services (TMS). You can no longer receive the channel now until TMS updates it's information on the switch.

Sign...:( Well luckily for my DVR at least, DirecTV is carrying KCOP's DTV HD signal. I just preferred the OTA signal quality as opposed to one from the satellite provider which tends to apply additional signal compression making it an "HD lite" version as its called.

GPowers

03-05-09, 02:48 PM

playsccr

03-05-09, 08:44 PM

HoTatII

03-06-09, 06:36 AM

Well...

At least by some "hook-or-crook," I guess the software in my DirecTV AM21's off-air tuner/HD-DVR combo seems to have solved the riddle of the now weird PSIP data in KCOP's DTV signal. So I can now receive them again on the proper display channel "13-1." However no such luck with the PC I'm afraid, as it still shows no station available on 13-1. I tried adding a new 66-3/physical channel 66 DTV channel to the Windows Media Center channel lineup to see if I could pick up KCOP. No luck as it shows no signal available even though that is the new data listed for the station in my two DTV converters (Zenith DTT-900) after a rescan :( .

Additional note: While my DTV converters can receive KCOP on this strange 66-3 display channel, when I press "info" there is no station ID, program information, or channel guide data for the current and upcoming programs as there was before. it just blandly says "DTV 66-3."

Great...:rolleyes:

HarrisonS

03-06-09, 11:28 AM

i have a small tv in the kitchen that is connected to cable $10/month...is there a way to hook up an indoor hd antenna and get the local channels for free....and recommendations on antennas?? id love to disconnect the cable...thanks

I assume that your small TV is a digital set, and hopefully, an HDTV. If so, all you will need is a good antenna. Just how good it needs to be, all depends on your location. Good reception is much more importsnt with digital TV.

narkspud

03-06-09, 01:08 PM

I assume that your small TV is a digital set, and hopefully, an HDTV. If so, all you will need is a good antenna. Just how good it needs to be, all depends on your location. Good reception is much more importsnt with digital TV.

If it is not a digital set, then you will also need a DTV converter box. (Just in case HarrisonS's assumption is incorrect.)

Sniperman

03-06-09, 04:13 PM

for thsoe interested in KTLA 5.2 THIStv i found some info on it.
http://www.ktla.com/content_landing_page/?Q-What-is-THIS-TV-Network=1&blockID=214678&feedID=1068

oc-rdx

03-06-09, 04:15 PM

I noticed last night that 5.2(future ThisTV) is gone now, but 5.5 has been added. 5.5 comes up with a blank screen though.

Sniperman

03-06-09, 04:19 PM

as of right now on 5.2 i get audio and logo for video.

i get nothing on 5.5 - no signal i remember a while ago 5.5 had music videos running.

ercjncpr

03-06-09, 10:49 PM

From looking at their schedule, ThisTV sure doesn't look promising so far!

Sniperman

03-07-09, 11:52 AM

oh i dont know, sure its old programming but i enjoy watching classic tv and movies. i caught a few movies annd shows when it was running and i rather enjoyed it, and im missing it already :P

HarrisonS

03-07-09, 12:10 PM

oh i dont know, sure its old programming but i enjoy watching classic tv and movies. i caught a few movies annd shows when it was running and i rather enjoyed it, and im missing it already :P

I fully agree! I have a big collection of old classic movies on DVD, etc. These were the real movies, made for adults and not for teenagers and children like most of the newer movies. My only big complaint about THISTV, judging from what was shown so far, is that there are just too many commercial interruptions (and too long) to make it worth watching.

trumptman

03-07-09, 08:29 PM

It doesn't really matter what THIS-TV shows because if I wake up too early, they are one of the only stations not showing INFORMERCIALS and so that makes them great in my book.

phildaant

03-07-09, 09:33 PM

as of right now on 5.2 i get audio and logo for video.

i get nothing on 5.5 - no signal i remember a while ago 5.5 had music videos running.5.5 was TheTube. It was like 80s' MTV without the hosts, reality shows, etc. and stuff. TheTube ran out of money and shutdown. :( I loved it too when it was on since it was like old days!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tube_(TV_channel) for details.

Sniperman

03-07-09, 11:25 PM

yea i loved 5.5 but near the end they were jsut on a cycle of the same videos

phildaant

03-07-09, 11:27 PM

yea i loved 5.5 but near the end they were jsut on a cycle of the same videosI remember it kept playing U2 music video. LOL.

Sniperman

03-08-09, 12:25 AM

lol still beats mtv :P
therse another chan thats mostly music videos i think its 57.2 for me, its mostly spanish music though.

phildaant

03-08-09, 12:28 AM

lol still beats mtv :P
therse another chan thats mostly music videos i think its 57.2 for me, its mostly spanish music though.It does? You mean the original MTV before it went downhill?

Bah, Spanish. TheTube had 80s music videos too. :(

Sniperman

03-08-09, 12:56 AM

i meant that 5.5 beat mtv because mtv doesnt really play videos anymore lol
hopefully when they get rid of analog they will add more channels.

phildaant

03-08-09, 01:08 AM

i meant that 5.5 beat mtv because mtv doesnt really play videos anymore lol
hopefully when they get rid of analog they will add more channels.Ah you mean the current MTV. Well, yeah DUH!

HarrisonS

03-08-09, 10:31 AM

Lovehound

03-08-09, 04:24 PM

My Pio Pro151 plasma tuner did not detect KNBC's primary digital channel (4.001) during the initial scan. I get "This Channel Not In Service" reply when I manually enter it. Finds everything else fine...2.1, 5.1, etc., even 4.002 and 4.004. Called Pio - they claimed neither of 2 TVs they tried could receive 4.001. Seems very odd. Anybody else having trouble with OTA 4.001?

I had the same problem with a Pioneer 111. I called Pioneer and they claimed that the signal was too week, despite my being able to receive several other stations with weaker indicated strength. I replaced all my antenna wiring and 3dB splitter with no improvement (relatively new antenna) and even took out the splitter, but still no channel 4.1. Meanwhile 4.1 was coming in fine on my Samsung 450 bedroom TV.

I became annoyed with Pio's insistence that it was a signal strength problem, and then a few days later I discovered that Pio was exiting the TV business, and since I had the TV only about 10 days I took it back and received a full refund.

Damn, I'll miss that TV... I never did figure out why I couldn't get 4.1 but it's interesting to hear that others had the same problem.

KNBC also has two other subchannels, 4.2 and 4.4 which, I assume, you are also not picking up.

No, that's the thing! 4.2 and 4.4 were coming in just fine. Only 4.1 was missing, and I must have scanned at least 10 times over a period of several days.

That's just crazy! I concluded that it may be either a firmware problem or a defective receiver board.

BTW, I'm located in the middle of San Fernando Valley and have an excellent shot to Mt. Wilson. All the Mt. Wilson signals come in here great. This is not a signal strength problem despite what Pio says.

Lovehound

03-08-09, 04:39 PM

Anyone notice that KCOP-13's display channel is now listed as "66-3" instead of the normal "13-1," which is the same as their actual RF digital channel number?

Yes, I too noticed this about ~3 days ago, that 13.1 had disappeared and KCOP is now showing up as 66.3 on my Samsung A450 bedroom TV. My Sony XBR6 living room TV continues to show this channel as 13.1.

I suspect it has something to do with the PSIP, particularly considering the missing program information. I think it is quite possible that KCOP has something a bit out of whack and that my Sony deals with it while the Samsung doesn't.

I'm a bit annoyed, but I figured that by June 12th if not sooner the problem will probably go away on its own. I haven't bothered to rescan the Samsung as most of the stations are channels I don't watch, and I don't want to go through the list again telling the TV which is which.

For the time being I'm just getting used to "channel 13" appearing on 66.3.

This is some pretty weird stuff, first the "Pio no 4.1" and now the "Samsung 13 on 66.3" thing. I wish we could just get to June 12th and put an end to all this crap.

Lovehound

03-08-09, 04:43 PM

I did a scan on one of my receivers last night, and I did not pick up any ch. 5.5, just 5.1 and 5.2 as usual. At that time 5.2 was not carrying anyting, not even their logo or audio. Evidently they are still just in their test phase.

I've noticed 5.2 and 5.5 appearing and disappearing at odd times the last week or so. What's annoying is that on my Samsung A450 each time 5.2 shows up I have to tell the TV set to skip it. Then 5.2 goes away and later comes back, and I have to make the TV skip it again.

Evidently the Samsung can notice new sub-channels without rescanning. Oh well, it's just another thing that should fix itself on June 12th. :)

blue_z

03-08-09, 05:06 PM

For the time being I'm just getting used to "channel 13" appearing on 66.3.

This is some pretty weird stuff, first the "Pio no 4.1" and now the "Samsung 13 on 66.3" thing. I wish we could just get to June 12th and put an end to all this crap.

Hi there

For some tuners and converter boxes, the screw-up on 13.1 is worse because it is not viewable at all. The "signal strength" meter indicates that there is something received, but somewhere in the demuxing and decoding process the digital info is sent to the bit bucket instead of the display. This is purely a digital domain issue, and shutting off analog won't fix these kinds of issues.

Regards

Falcon_77

03-08-09, 05:30 PM

Has anyone checked Antennaweb.org lately? It was always very conservative, but seems to be much worse now.

Edit: After further tweaking (coords at 25'), it shows about half the UHF stations that I can easily receive in violet. None of the others appear at all. KCET, KABC and KCOP may be blue here, but the rest should be no worse than red.

If people are making decisions based upon Antennaweb they are bound to just throw up their hands and say it can't be done.

holl_ands

03-08-09, 10:16 PM

The FCC now has a signal prediction website:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/
For the couple places I know, it seems to be more believable than antennaweb.org
After you give it a rough location (e.g. city and/or zipcode), you can grab the location
icon and move it. It also calculates a receive signal level (ignoring antenna differences).

Of course, www.tvfool.com is still the best....

VenturaTVViewer

03-09-09, 09:35 AM

Should be able to receive KEYT 3.1,3.2; KPMR 38-1, 38-2; KBEH 63.1; and 49.1-49.5; The FCC website just uses the maps, does not consider refraction so predicts no signal for this area. TV fool predicts reception of these signals, Antennaweb also predicts some of these channels.

The FCC website is very conservative in its prediction as it does not take into account refraction which would require a more sophisticated setup and more knowledgeable consumer.

HarrisonS

03-09-09, 11:13 AM

I had the same problem with a Pioneer 111. I called Pioneer and they claimed that the signal was too week, despite my being able to receive several other stations with weaker indicated strength. I replaced all my antenna wiring and 3dB splitter with no improvement (relatively new antenna) and even took out the splitter, but still no channel 4.1. Meanwhile 4.1 was coming in fine on my Samsung 450 bedroom TV.

I became annoyed with Pio's insistence that it was a signal strength problem, and then a few days later I discovered that Pio was exiting the TV business, and since I had the TV only about 10 days I took it back and received a full refund.

... I never did figure out why I couldn't get 4.1 but it's interesting to hear that others had the same problem...

BTW, I'm located in the middle of San Fernando Valley and have an excellent shot to Mt. Wilson. All the Mt. Wilson signals come in here great. This is not a signal strength problem despite what Pio says.

It is definitely not a signal strength issue. If it were, you would lose 4.2 and 4.4 as well. It is most likely a firmware problem, and only applies to the 9G Pioneer models. I have an 8G 150FD and it brings in 4.1 just fine.

It sounds as if perhaps Pioneer is already starting to phase out some of their support of these sets, since someone reported earlier here that they were aware of the issue, were looking into it and would be coming out with a firmware update. If I were you I wouldn't have gotten rid of the 111 so soon, 4.1 or no 4.1. Maybe you should grab another one while you still can!

I live north of you in in the NW Granada Hills/Porter Ranch area. The LOS to Mt. Wilson is less than perfect and I need good roof antennas for DTV.

Falcon_77

03-09-09, 11:45 AM

narkspud posted this on the delay thread, but thought this would be of interest here:

Lessons Learned During the San Diego DTV Transition

http://www.sbe36.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=281&Itemid=1

One issue that is glossed over by the media is existing DTV viewers with UHF only antennas:

Not Ready for VHF - Many viewers had adapted to the UHF-only pre-transition market with their bow-tie array antennas, only to find that they now had to replace those antennas to receive new DTV stations on channels 8 and 10. Many viewers were told that the best system is a combination of high-band VHF antenna aimed permanently at Mt. Soledad and a UHF antenna aimed south toward Mt. San Miguel and Mt. San Antonio, but few wanted to actually go to the trouble of doing so.

At least in the LA area, we don't have to deal with 4 different transmitter sites.