Should be able to receive KEYT 3.1,3.2; KPMR 38-1, 38-2; KBEH 63.1; and 49.1-49.5; The FCC website just uses the maps, does not consider refraction so predicts no signal for this area. TV fool predicts reception of these signals, Antennaweb also predicts some of these channels.

The FCC website is very conservative in its prediction as it does not take into account refraction which would require a more sophisticated setup and more knowledgeable consumer.
Sorry, if I'm such a fanatic re correct terminology....but...

REFRACTION is BENDING of RF signals due to inhomogeneities in the atmosphere,
which IS INDEED included in Antennaweb, FCC website, Radio-Mobile and TVFool:
http://www.mike-willis.com/Tutorial/PF6.htm

What you have is REFLECTION off of nearby hills....which none of them consider....

It is definitely not a signal strength issue. If it were, you would lose 4.2 and 4.4 as well. It is most likely a firmware problem, and only applies to the 9G Pioneer models. I have an 8G 150FD and it brings in 4.1 just fine.

It sounds as if perhaps Pioneer is already starting to phase out some of their support of these sets, since someone reported earlier here that they were aware of the issue, were looking into it and would be coming out with a firmware update. If I were you I wouldn't have gotten rid of the 111 so soon, 4.1 or no 4.1. Maybe you should grab another one while you still can!

I live north of you in in the NW Granada Hills/Porter Ranch area. The LOS to Mt. Wilson is less than perfect and I need good roof antennas for DTV.

I've got a reasonably recent Winegard on my roof, full channel model, and brand new RG6 wiring, and can see Mt. Wilson on a clear day, so the signals here are pretty good.

I had a few more issues with the 111 including my concern that I would be able to get replacement parts 5-6 years from now.

A main issue was my annoyance their retarded customer service that could come up with no other reasons except the "signal strength is too low." I'm a BSEE and have an Extra Class ham license so I'm no dummy at RF, and it seems pretty clear to me that when 4.2 and 4.3 are coming in fine, signal strength could not possibly be the reason why 4.1 is not coming in.

And I hate to admit, but $3K was a bit more than I could conveniently spend, not unless the set was perfect in every way. I've settled on a Sony at about half the price.

One issue that is glossed over by the media is existing DTV viewers with UHF only antennas:

At least in the LA area, we don't have to deal with 4 different transmitter sites.

Yeah, we Angelinos are fortunate in that we were already fully integrated into a VHF-lo, VHF-hi & UHF market, all served from one transmitter site.

I don't imagine we will have very many antenna problems from the digital conversion, because practically all our existing antennas should be good to go and already aimed perfectly.

Looks like KCOP is mapping to 13 again.

...A main issue was my annoyance their retarded customer service that could come up with no other reasons except the "signal strength is too low." I'm a BSEE and have an Extra Class ham license so I'm no dummy at RF, and it seems pretty clear to me that when 4.2 and 4.3 are coming in fine, signal strength could not possibly be the reason why 4.1 is not coming in...



I am really surprised about the Pioneer customer service, since it used to be excellent in the past and a real "plus" for Pioneer. As I said, it looks like they are already beginning to phase out their A/V operations.

I am also surprised that you can see Mt. Wilson from your location. I would not have expected it to be visible anywhere in the valley, since the closest part of the San Gabriel mountain range tends to block it from view. I do know, however, that reception gets better in the valley as you go farther to the south and farther west. They even told me once at the Sound Factor in Encino that they were using rabbit ears on their demo digital TV's. That would be impossible here!

BTW, I too have an Extra Class license, but my degree is in physics.

Looks like KCOP is mapping to 13 again.

I too noticed that last night. I turned on my Samsung and it was on 2.1 and I hit the channel down and it landed on KCOP which was now reporting it was on 13.1. Evidently it was in memory where 66.3 should be, but as soon as the TV received the up-to-date PSIP it put 13.1 back in its proper spot. And in fact after that it behaved properly, placing KCOP between 11 and 28 on my TV.



Let's say that I can see that big lump of mountains that Mt. Wilson is part of. I'm not sure I can separate out which rock is Mt. W. itself. Up on Mt. W., on Audio Rd. and on Video Rd., I can see the part of the valley that I live in. :)

...Let's say that I can see that big lump of mountains that Mt. Wilson is part of. I'm not sure I can separate out which rock is Mt. W. itself. Up on Mt. W., on Audio Rd. and on Video Rd., I can see the part of the valley that I live in. :)

I can see that from here too, but not Mt. Wilson itself; it is just too far east for me, at least. If you can see Mt. Wilson, you should be able to see the domes of the observatory, at least with binoculars.

I've used Google Earth to see which terrain was blocking my LOS to Mt. Wilson. Fortunately the major hill blocking my view was cut way down for houses so my reception has improved.

Currently, am still picking up from the side of the hill in a southerly direction, not from the hill northwest, so am not utilizing reflection yet. Am planning to move the antenna on the transition, or the weekend before June 12, 2009. After that will be digital, except for TBN 45 low power station, and 23 formerly Retrojam, and the company is going through bankruptcy and reorganization. If anyone knows what's going on with these low power stations amid the current economic situation would be interested in some analysis and forecast for their future. Will they switch to a Digital Tramission System? Are they economically viable?

Does anyone know where I can get a list of HD resolutions used by each station?

Thank you in advance. :)

http://rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=2

http://rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=2Thank you.

OK, now that I got information about resolutions from each TV station. Is it me or some stations/channels have noticeable horizontal interlaced lines like KNBC (worse of all -- see http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/6773/snapshot20090313011707.jpg around the car edges) and KCBS, even in HD?

I don't see this with other 1080i channels and 720p stations.

I wonder if this is my computer or the stations? I am using OTA obviously.

Thank you.

OK, now that I got information about resolutions from each TV station. Is it me or some stations/channels have noticeable horizontal interlaced lines like KNBC (worse of all -- see http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/6773/snapshot20090313011707.jpg around the car edges) and KCBS, even in HD?

I don't see this with other 1080i channels and 720p stations.

I wonder if this is my computer or the stations? I am using OTA obviously.

Definitely your computer - it's not deinterlacing the 1080i. Check the deinterlacing settings on your software.

Definitely your computer - it's not deinterlacing the 1080i. Check the deinterlacing settings on your software.Yeah, trying to figure that out. Ugh.

Is dark here. Would imagine power has been reduced for analog. Still have the local low power station. Channel 45.

Definitely your computer - it's not deinterlacing the 1080i. Check the deinterlacing settings on your software.

Hi there

Agree, it's the video processing on the computer. But the program content seems to dictate how much of this artifact appears. I rarely see these interlace "scan line" artifacts. Occasionally they flash during some commercials and movie trailers. But during the broadcast of "Chopping Block" (in 1080i. but pillarboxed 4:3 image) the other day, there were flashes throughout the show. The hi-def commercial breaks were a relief from these lines. This is happening with an nVida 8500GT GPU and PureVideo decoder.

On another PC with a 7300GT GPU and 17x drivers, the deinterlacing was okay until I updated the video driver to the 18x version. Then the hardware acceleration was broken, and there were deinterlacing artifacts galore.

Regards

Mega Media to Morph TV Channel 6 in Two More Markets

It looks like the LA area will lose Spanish programming on 6. From TVT:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/76192

Mega Media Group, which programs that dance format on a TV audio frequency down at the edge of the FM dial in New York — "Pulse87.7" on WNYZ(LP) — plans to expand the concept to Chicago and Los Angeles.

Mega says it has signed a letter of intent to lease frequencies from Venture Technologies Group. Mega leases the low-power Channel 6 signal from Island Broadcasting and is programming it as a radio station. (Read TVT's recent coverage of the Channel 6/radio station phenomenon.)

Formal air lease agreements have to be agreed to and executed by both parties by March 31, with programming to begin on June 1.

Mega Media Group CEO Alex Shvarts said expansion into L.A. and Chicago would make Mega a national radio brand, "covering the three top-billing markets which generate in excess of $1.8 billion dollars of advertising revenue a year."


I'm not sure what they mean by "expanding the concept," as we already have a de-facto radio station on channel 6.

I wonder how this affects the LD app that KSFV had for 6.

This TV is back on right now on Ch 31 (5.2).

I'm not sure what they mean by "expanding the concept," as we already have a de-facto radio station on channel 6.

I wonder how this affects the LD app that KSFV had for 6.

Looks like Guadalupe Radio is about to be evicted. They say it's a deal with Venture Technologies Group, and that would be KSFV.

Dance music with KSFV's sound quality? Oh yay can't wait.

From KFLA's website.

Viewers in some areas of Southern California are no longer able to receive KFLA. This is due to interference from KFMB Channel 8, San Diego. On February 17, 2009 this station began broadcasting in digital format on channel 8. Those effected by this problem will now receive only a black or blue screen. Some TV's may display a message "No Signal" or something similar.

KFLA is seeking permission from the Federal Communication Commission (FCC) to change to another channel that does not have interference. However, it is up to the FCC to decide if, and when, they will grant us a new channel. This is the only remedy available to us. Under the FCC rules KFLA is a "community station", is considered a "secondary service" and must "accept" interference from Full Service stations such as KFMB, San Diego.

Read the rest here.
http://www.kfla.tv/interference.html

In Lake Forest, I don't receive either KFLA or KFMB. And hopefully ThisTV is finally on for good.

In Lake Forest, I don't receive either KFLA or KFMB. And hopefully ThisTV is finally on for good.

I will be interested to see what results I get when I finish installing my VHF antenna. If KFLA is ltransmitting from Mt. Wilson, I doubt if I stand any chance of ever picking it up, even without any interference, here in the Porter Ranch area. As for KFMB, however, I may indeed get good recetion of its signal, at least during the summer and early fall when there is a good inversion layer. I remember listeening to KFMB-FM years ago, and it came in like a local station. I have always had excellent VHF reception into the San Diego area during that time of year.

I have to wonder what channel KFLA-LD is considering moving to. If it's 12, it probably won't be of any more value than 8 is.

If they're attempting to find a UHF... good luck with that. But that would be the best place to go. (25, 27, 40, 45, and 46 might be available, not sure though... I can guarantee that nothing else is though.)

Nothing's filed with the FCC yet, but who knows.

- Trip

Read the rest here.
http://www.kfla.tv/interference.html

(From their suggestion on how to word your letter to the FCC)

"It is helpful to explain what you like about KFLA, in particular, describe any special programs that you enjoy that are not available from any other station."

1. "Three Weeks Transmitting Four Blank Screens"
2. "The (Out of Focus) Blob"
3. "Phase Cancellation 90210"
4. "The Streaming Video in a Software Window Show"
5. "My Friend Flicker"
6. "No Signal"

Anyone know if there are any translator antennas on Santiago Peak in South OC or on Singal Peak at the top of Newport Coast?

If not, anyone know what all those towers & antennas are for?

I have to wonder what channel KFLA-LD is considering moving to. If it's 12, it probably won't be of any more value than 8 is...




There is a station, XEWT, on analog ch. 12 serving the San Diego area now, but its digital transmitter is staying on ch. 32, so 12 might be free after all, as far as San Diego is concerned. And there won't be anything in the Los Aneles area on 12. As a result, it looks like ch. 12 would be free after all, at least if XEWT shuts off its analog signal.

12 would be free, and might be a decent home for KCET if they'd needed to move, but for a low-powered station, UHF is probably best.

- Trip

Anyone know if there are any translator antennas on Santiago Peak in South OC
or on Signal Peak at the top of Newport Coast?

If not, anyone know what all those towers & antennas are for?
There are no broadcast TV/DTV stations at those locations, although there is
low power (530 W) KWVE-FM on Santiago Peak and two more low power FM
on Signal Peak. Co-location of many high power VHF/UHF broadcast transmitters
would make reception very difficult....

Signal Peak has a bunch of back-to-back microwave dishes for data/phone
as well as VHF/UHF amateur (ham) radio repeaters:
http://rptrlist.w6jpl.ampr.org/Main.htm
http://www.cactus-intertie.org/
http://www.cactus-intertie.org/LA/Signal.htm

Santiago Peak is similar:
http://rptrlist.w6jpl.ampr.org/Main.htm
http://thesilvercoyote.net/albums/santiago/santiago.htm
plus it's part of the SOCAL Amateur (low-rez) TV Network:
http://www.atn-tv.org/coverageMaps/default.htm
http://www.atn-tv.org/ca-santiago.htm

There are no broadcast TV/DTV stations at those locations, although there is
low power (530 W) KWVE-FM on Santiago Peak. Co-location of many high power
VHF/UHF broadcast transmitters would make reception very difficult....

Signal Peak has a bunch of back-to-back microwave dishes for data/phone
as well as VHF/UHF amateur (ham) radio repeaters:
http://rptrlist.w6jpl.ampr.org/Main.htm
http://www.cactus-intertie.org/
http://www.cactus-intertie.org/LA/Signal.htm

Santiago Peak is similar:
http://rptrlist.w6jpl.ampr.org/Main.htm
http://thesilvercoyote.net/albums/santiago/santiago.htm
plus it's part of the SOCAL Amateur (low-rez) TV Network:
http://www.atn-tv.org/coverageMaps/default.htm
http://www.atn-tv.org/ca-santiago.htm

Thanks for the info. I've riden my mountain bike up to Santiago a couple of times & ride up Newport Coast often.
I wondered what those antennas & dishes were for. I couldn't find anything when I googled them.

Viewers in some areas of Southern California are no longer able to receive KFLA. This is due to interference from KFMB Channel 8, San Diego. On February 17, 2009 this station began broadcasting in digital format on channel 8. Those effected by this problem will now receive only a black or blue screen. Some TV's may display a message "No Signal" or something similar.

What I find interesting about this is their apparent claim that co-channel DTV signals cause much more interference than their analog counterparts. KFMB was at 316kW for their analog signal on 8 and the digital version is at 14.9kW, which I consider to be weaker than is needed for adequate replication.

My DTV Pal DVR box once locked onto KFLA-LD (it added the channels), but I have not been able to watch it.

I was able to watch analog 8 and 10 from San Diego at times when I pointed my YA-1713 that way, but 8 basically vanished at some point and now both are gone for good. The DTV equivalents don't have a chance where I'm at.

KFLA-LD has an application to push more power in the S. OC direction, but I'm not expecting KFMB to be receptive of that idea.

I did some 87.7 tests this weekend and was able to get KSFV-CA as far south as just before Del Mar Heights Rd. (on I-5). I was quite surprised to see it interfering with XETV's signal that far South, though it was on an uphill slope favoring LA.

I also tried to find an LD station (K61GH/K09YL-D) that is supposedly broadcasting on 9 from Mt. Soledad or Ruffner St. in San Diego, but it appeared to be swamped by full power adjacents on 8 and 10 or by KCAL/9 from LA or both. I couldn't detect it at all from Mission Bay. Here is some info on it:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=710082&formid=911&q_num=5210

KFLA-LD may be in the same boat in LA, being sandwiched between 7 and 9 post-transition. Are digital signals really more forgiving with adjacents? I suppose they could try moving to something like 2. :eek:

What I find interesting about this is their apparent claim that co-channel DTV signals cause much more interference than their analog counterparts. KFMB was at 316kW for their analog signal on 8 and the digital version is at 14.9kW, which I consider to be weaker than is needed for adequate replication.

I was getting a signal from KFLA about 80% of the time. Watchable (theoretically anyway) about 50% of the time.

I have seen no trace of them since the day San Diego went digital. In fact, I asked on this very board if they were still on the air.

So I think there's something to their claim. Ordinarily I would say I hope they can get approved for a move to another channel, but since I consider them a total waste of valuable spectrum space, I kind of hope they just go away.

I'm 13.5 miles slightly SE of Mt. Wilson. Some weeks ago KFLA had disappeared but when I checked just now it is there. 8.1 and 8.2 showing old movies of some sort that look like they come from a "rented too often" VHS tape. 8.4 and 8.5 at least look like SD but both are doing something in Spanish. No reason for me to care if KFLA stays or goes. :D

From TV fool determined will need 37 db for 2 edge refraction for 70 miles and trying for refraction around the hill. To get KCBS2, KCAL9, FOX11.

Otherwise looking to get 3.1, 3.2 KEYT 49.1-49.5, and 38.1,38.2 Spanish. And analog 23 if it changes to 17, and 45 TBN.:D

Looking for successful a over the air digital receiving television antenna systems that duplicate the 70 mile distance and equivalent hill somewhere in the U.S.

KTBN's construction permit for 33 (1000kW) was granted today:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1297361&Service=DT&Form_id=301&Facility_id=67884

Unlike some of the local stations which seem to be trying to burn UHF signals through the mountains to the North (a low power translator or DTS would be much more effective), KTBN will send almost nothing in that direction (~1kW).

KTBN's construction permit for 33 (1000kW) was granted today:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1297361&Service=DT&Form_id=301&Facility_id=67884

Unlike some of the local stations which seem to be trying to burn UHF signals through the mountains to the North (a low power translator or DTS would be much more effective), KTBN will send almost nothing in that direction (~1kW).

Interesting. I notice also there is a channel change from the current 23. Yes, this station has always been very weak here to the NW; on analog it was, at best, weak and very snowy, and the digital signal is usually completely below the detection threshold. I assume the transmitter is not on Mt. Wilson but rather somewhere perhaps in eastern OC.

No, KTBN-DT has been on Mount Wilson, just that it was at 50 kW on channel 23 next to KWHY-22 analog, also fighting interference to the east from KVMD-DT 23 and possibly from KBEH-DT 24 to the northwest.

- Trip

And for those people half-way between L.A. and Tijuana: XETV-DT also on Ch23.

No, KTBN-DT has been on Mount Wilson, just that it was at 50 kW on channel 23 next to KWHY-22 analog, also fighting interference to the east from KVMD-DT 23 and possibly from KBEH-DT 24 to the northwest.

- Trip

Just curious as to how much power they are using on anaolg ch 40. Nowadays I can't even pick it up locally here with a good roof antenna and antenna mounted preamp! They must be running extremely low power and beaming it all to the south.

According to the FCC Query, KTBN has a license for 631kW with a non-directional antenna. While this is not a great deal of power for an analog UHF station, I am getting it ok at 50 miles.

I have not seen an STA filed for reductions or other changes, so I'm surprised that you can't get it.

Picking it up fine here with the power upgrade to 1000KW. Good picture! Get a great picture on Channel 45. TBN local.

Wonder if this area can get digital stations from San Diego. Haven't tried that yet. Got channel 8 under the right conditions. Overcast, late in the day, low wind.

Upgraded the antenna, should get good reception heading towards Santa Barbara.

DID ANYONE WATCH/RECORD THE SIMPSONS in Los Angeles in HD last night?
If so, did you see a number of glitches in the first few mins? (The first glitch is during the Ozzy promo before the show, just before the cartoon starts within the promo).

If you saw these glitches, could you describe them, and what system (Dish,DirecTV,over-the-air, or cable (which system))?

Thanks!
--Gary

DID ANYONE WATCH/RECORD THE SIMPSONS in Los Angeles in HD last night?
If so, did you see a number of glitches in the first few mins? (The first glitch is during the Ozzy promo before the show, just before the cartoon starts within the promo).

If you saw these glitches, could you describe them, and what system (Dish,DirecTV,over-the-air, or cable (which system))?

Thanks!
--Gary

I had these glitches you speak of. It happened 3 or 4 (maybe more) times, but mostly in the first 15 minutes. Screen went black for a few seconds and audio was gone, too. I've already deleted it, so I can't be more specific, but the first one was during the Osbournes promo as you described, and the 2nd on was near the end of the opening "couch gag" segment. Viewing Fox 11 HD via DirecTV on an HR22-100. I was also recording it in SD in the other room, and that feed was trouble free.

According to the FCC Query, KTBN has a license for 631kW with a non-directional antenna. While this is not a great deal of power for an analog UHF station, I am getting it ok at 50 miles.

I have not seen an STA filed for reductions or other changes, so I'm surprised that you can't get it.

This is really surprising. I want to do some experimentation by hooking up an old analog tuner to the antenna. When I do a scan with my Pioneer 150FD, it always fails even to pick it up at all. Unfortunately, I cannot add stations manually on that set. It picks up around 60 digital channels including subchannels, and also a lot of analog stations, which I deselect, since I normally only watch digital channels. But ch 40 is not among them. I know in the past with previous analog sets, I have only gotten snowy pictures at best on KTBN. Nowadays, no other Mt. Wilson based station is that weak by a long shot.

Picking it up fine here with the power upgrade to 1000KW. Good picture! Get a great picture on Channel 45. TBN local.

Wonder if this area can get digital stations from San Diego. Haven't tried that yet. Got channel 8 under the right conditions. Overcast, late in the day, low wind.

Upgraded the antenna, should get good reception heading towards Santa Barbara.

As I told Falcon_77 this is really surprising. It is doubly surprising, since we are both in about the same direction, and you are much farther away!

Picking it up fine here with the power upgrade to 1000KW. Good picture! Get a great picture on Channel 45. TBN local.

Wait, are you saying you're seeing KTBN-DT 40-1? Because they haven't actually moved yet, only got the permit to move...

- Trip

Picking up Channel 40 TBN good. Channel 45 TBN great. 45 is low power LOS. There is about a 2-3 second sound delay between them.

Picking up about ten analog stations, and all the 1000 KW digital Los Angeles Mount Wilson stations now due to refraction. Think from the side of the hill, or could be over the top of a 500 foot hill. Not getting KEYT digital, or any Los Angeles, or Santa Barbara station below 1000KW. About 600 KW and less not getting those.

Channel 23 Retrojam still in bankruptcy, if someone knows how to find out where the market is going with low power station in small demographic areas. Suspect it will go from an english language station to a different language, or be sold and move to Mount Wilson due to larger demographics.

What's happening to KCBS after the transition? Right now, antennaweb.org shows KCBS as my strongest station (green antenna required) whereas post June transition, it drops to the BOTTOM of the list (violet antenna required) but has the same distance and heading (well, heading changes from 37deg to 36deg). The broadcast channel also is changing from 60 to 43. Are they dropping their power or something? I'm going to have to upgrade my antenna if this is the case. :-(

Do you get KCAL now? If so, you'll get KCBS. Same exact facility.

- Trip

Do you get KCAL now? If so, you'll get KCBS. Same exact facility.
Not very well. KCAL is problematic, but I don't care, as I don't watch much of their stuff.

What's the difference though? Why would the reception be so worse? Same mountain, I presume same broadcasting power, are some towers on Mt. Wilson that much better / worse located than others?

What else could it be?

Extra 400 feet of height may have something to do with it.

They do have an application to increase to 1000 kW on channel 43, but the FCC has yet to act on it. I think it's a Mexican coordination issue, as is everything in the area.

- Trip

What's happening to KCBS after the transition? Right now, antennaweb.org shows KCBS as my strongest station (green antenna required) whereas post June transition, it drops to the BOTTOM of the list (violet antenna required) but has the same distance and heading (well, heading changes from 37deg to 36deg). The broadcast channel also is changing from 60 to 43. Are they dropping their power or something? I'm going to have to upgrade my antenna if this is the case. :-(


Yes, KCBS is supposed to be moving to channel 43 in the transition, when its sister station KCAL moves to its former analog channel 9. I am really surprised that you are having trouble with KCAL, as it one of the very strongest stations here.

Extra 400 feet of height may have something to do with it.

They do have an application to increase to 1000 kW on channel 43, but the FCC has yet to act on it. I think it's a Mexican coordination issue, as is everything in the area.

- Trip

It may also be related to receiving antenna idiosyncracies. I have two different UHF roof antennas, a relatively new Winegard and a very old Radio Shack. I have noticed that the Radio Shack tends to favor the higher part of the UHF band, while the Winegard favors frequencies farther down, and thus will be more optimal after the transition when the highest channels will be vacated. I have also found that antenna pointig can be far more critical than one might expect from the beam pattern of the antenna.

Are there anywebsites that tell where the transmitter is on the mountain, and in detail? Would like to get KTLA-DT which is at 1000KW.

On the reception side, antenna pointing is critical, use the signal quality, signal strength meter, limit length of run, and no or limited use of splitters.

TVFool's interactive coverage maps show the locations, as do the coverage maps for use with Google Earth.

Are there anywebsites that tell where the transmitter is on the mountain, and in detail?

Ever heard of the FCC website?

Are there anywebsites that tell where the transmitter is on the mountain, and in detail? Would like to get KTLA-DT which is at 1000KW.

On the reception side, antenna pointing is critical, use the signal quality, signal strength meter, limit length of run, and no or limited use of splitters.

At your distance, it shouldn't make any difference, per se. Rather, these pointing differences are probably due the presence of reflections, determined by the complex interaction of antenna height, exact position and frequency.

Thanks for your input. Agree that distance probably supersedes point direction. And signal maybe influenced along the way. Probably will wait until this summer (past June cutoff) for any more changes and/or improvements.

What's going on with the ABC signal? I've got an older large rooftop antenna from which I am receiving great signals on KCBS, KNBC, KTLA, KCAL, KTTV, KCOP, KCET & KLCS.

I went to antennaweb.org to better align my antenna. I'm in the Burbank area and the antenna pointer suggest a directional aim of about 60 degrees (between 58 & 62 max). This resulted in the best overall signal for all of the channels except ABC.

For some reason ABC barely gets a signal during the day and almost never gets any signal at night, even with minor adjustments either way. This seems odd unless the information at antennaweb.org is wrong or ABC is experiencing some sort of problem, or its antenna is not up to par with the others, or so above average I need a much more sophisticated antenna. I mean, aren't they all on Mount Wilson?

KABC is one of my weakest stations, along with KCOP.

You may need to wait until June when KABC moves back to 7 as it probably won't be worth spending a lot of effort on the current channel (53).

How do analog 7-13 look? All the local full-power DTV stations are currently on UHF, but 7, 9, 11 & 13 are moving back to VHF. 2, 4 & 5 are not.

ThisTV is now on Ch 31 (5.2) since Mar 27 and KTLA updated their web page (no longer says it's in testing).
http://www.ktla.com/thistv

I don't know how many people on AVS are interested in Japanese-related programming, but 18.2 has been a nice addition to our local line-up. They are showing a wide variety of programming, including news, Japanese language instruction, anime, movies, etc.

The program guide had been working, but now it's saying, "UTB Japanese" of late. However, the program guide is available online:

http://utbhollywood.com/en/programlist/index.php

I have asked KSCI if the guide info can be fixed.

I'm very pleased to have this channel available locally, especially after we lost the Funimation Channel almost 2 years ago now. This channel is probably a better approach as it has much more to offer.

I don't know how many people on AVS are interested in Japanese-related programming, but 18.2 has been a nice addition to our local line-up. They are showing a wide variety of programming, including news, Japanese language instruction, anime, movies, etc.

The program guide had been working, but now it's saying, "UTB Japanese" of late. However, the program guide is available online:

http://utbhollywood.com/en/programlist/index.php

I have asked KSCI if the guide info can be fixed.

I'm very pleased to have this channel available locally, especially after we lost the Funimation Channel almost 2 years ago now. This channel is probably a better approach as it has much more to offer.

That sounds excellent. In my case, I wish KSCI, or another station also had German language programming. I especially like to watch the ZDF Heute Journal evening news program over the internet. It is usually about 30 min long (about 15 min on weekends), and is similar in format to the BBC news broadcast seen on PBS only IMO even better. It also does not have the liberal bias often seen in the network news programs (though, surprisingly, not so much on PBS).

ThisTV is now on Ch 31 (5.2) since Mar 27 and KTLA updated their web page (no longer says it's in testing).
http://www.ktla.com/thistv

Hi there

The picture quality is surprising good, among the best SD that is being broadcast. With upscaling by an HTPC, the resulting PQ from channel 5.2 is almost as good as film-based (i.e. telecined versus video) HD content from the networks.

Regards

Hi there

The picture quality is surprising good, among the best SD that is being broadcast. With upscaling by an HTPC, the resulting PQ from channel 5.2 is almost as good as film-based (i.e. telecined versus video) HD content from the networks.

Regards

I agree; it is very good for 480i. The picture quality is comparable to that on 28.2 and 28.4 which are also 480i. While it may look almost as good as some network HD material, other network HD looks considerablt better, for example, CSI:NY which I assume is also film based, although it may be videotaped in HD.

Is anyone else having this problem?

Since about 11pm last night I haven't been able to get any digital stations and I can only get about 13 analolg stations.

Before I got round 80 stations, about 50 were digital. What happened?

Oh, BTW I live in the Palms/Culver City area.

Is anyone else having this problem?

Since about 11pm last night I haven't been able to get any digital stations and I can only get about 13 analolg stations.

Before I got round 80 stations, about 50 were digital. What happened?


First, I would check the antenna and the transmission line to see if it is all intact. Less likely, but also possible, would a problem with the set itself.

Hi there

The picture quality is surprising good, among the best SD that is being broadcast. With upscaling by an HTPC, the resulting PQ from channel 5.2 is almost as good as film-based (i.e. telecined versus video) HD content from the networks.

RegardsGlad to hear that. THIS tv has been my technical baby for since we put the network together July last year. We've got a pretty good crew here.

Hey, I figured it out. It was my antenna.

Just bought a $76 Terk antenna from Fry's. It seems to do the trick.

Will see if it's better than my $20 antenna.

Also, I tried connecting my tv into the cable outlet for reception, it didn't work.

Oh, I've been watching this station also.

It's hard to get at times, but hopefully with my new antenna that won't be a problem anymore.

Looks like there is a now a broadcaster on 44.7. It is the New Tang Dynasty Channel whose shows are in Mandarin Chinese & is based in New York. Too bad they are known more for political content than entertainment value.

One thing that really screws me up: The Fox Channel 11 news at 11:00 p.m. is on channel 13. It took me a check on a separate TV set to verify that it really was on 13, and a realization that both channels are owned by Fox. :)

It didn't help that both of my sets are recent purchases and I'm still not entirely confident that both work correctly.

Yes, for a secondary sub-channel I am rather impressed with the picture quality of ThisTV myself. Which is why I wrote some time ago in response to a "RudyG's" comment to a prior well written post by Scott202 on the future viability of multicasting:

This being closer to a fairytale rather than something from real world, I'll believe it when I see it. ;)

Perhaps we need to revisit the definition of "very good picture". :confused: Because at the moment all transmissions with subchannels look from terrible to unwatchable.

I don't mean to sound harsh Scott, and I appreciate your post. But multicasting is a pig. And regardless of how much make up one puts on it, it will NEVER look good.

Rudy

I responded then:

That's why I was rather surprised at the usually good PQ I was temporarily receiving from THIS TV on KTLA’s sub-channel 5.2. Granted I was only able to evaluate it based on a ‘70’s vintage movie being telecasted at the time before KTLA took down the channel for whatever reason. But from what I saw it did seem to be very good for a sub-channel and was anxious to see the TS reader data on its bit rate.

To which RudyG strongly objected:

HoTat my comment was meant for all multicast channels for the given station. Assuming for a second that the picture on 5.2 will be "good", which is a stretch but we'll accept it for an example sake. This in turn will mean that the picture on the main channel 5.1 will have to degrade. OTA is stuck with an approximately 19 Mbps with MPEG2 compression. This when a decent HD broadcast requires close to 40 Mbps. So even at the start you are already behind the 8 ball. Then you compress it further and you get a pixellated and macroblocked mess that we are experiencing now. :(
MPEG4 for OTA is simply not a reality.

Rudy

But as others here note now that ThisTV has formally begun broadcasting, the PQ is remarkably good for a sub-channel, at least for the film based material they show. Though I do concede that from what I've observed on sub-channels elsewhere, live video aside from talking-heads is on the whole poor, especially so for fast motion scenes.

Glad to hear that. THIS tv has been my technical baby for since we put the network together July last year. We've got a pretty good crew here.

I haven't watched enough of it to comment on PQ, but I don't like to watch movies with the sides cropped off. Is it possible to have a SD 16:9 picture? Granted, there should still be some black bars for most movies on 16:9.

What's going on with the ABC signal? I've got an older large rooftop antenna from which I am receiving great signals on KCBS, KNBC, KTLA, KCAL, KTTV, KCOP, KCET & KLCS.

I went to antennaweb.org to better align my antenna. I'm in the Burbank area and the antenna pointer suggest a directional aim of about 60 degrees (between 58 & 62 max). This resulted in the best overall signal for all of the channels except ABC.

For some reason ABC barely gets a signal during the day and almost never gets any signal at night, even with minor adjustments either way. This seems odd unless the information at antennaweb.org is wrong or ABC is experiencing some sort of problem, or its antenna is not up to par with the others, or so above average I need a much more sophisticated antenna. I mean, aren't they all on Mount Wilson?Ever since 12/2008, I noticed KABC7 was degrading for my bowtie antenna. It got really bad two months ago that I had to move my antenna higher and into my closet (I actually like it there). I will probably be replacing it when DTV finally switch over in July. It's not worth fixing now (do get 40-60% signal strengths for KABC7).

DID ANYONE WATCH/RECORD THE SIMPSONS in Los Angeles in HD last night?
If so, did you see a number of glitches in the first few mins? (The first glitch is during the Ozzy promo before the show, just before the cartoon starts within the promo).

If you saw these glitches, could you describe them, and what system (Dish,DirecTV,over-the-air, or cable (which system))?I don't remember seeing them on my OTA (bowtie antenna; under 20 miles). I usually get 100% signal strength from KTTV.

I haven't watched enough of it to comment on PQ, but I don't like to watch movies with the sides cropped off. Is it possible to have a SD 16:9 picture? Granted, there should still be some black bars for most movies on 16:9.

While I guess only tvmicrowave2002 would know for sure, a 16x9 SD signal would require more bandwidth since a larger pixel array (~855x480) would need to be transmitted at same field rate. But I don't know if it would make any difference as all the movies broadcast by ThisTV so far all appear to be originally 4:3 telecine video (pan & scan) produced for 4:3 analog TV.

Therefore this would result in simply another 4:3 pillar-box display on 16x9 HD sets or the familiar window-box (postage stamp) image on 4:3 sets hooked to DTV converters to which you have to zoom up to full screen.

This TV is only provided in 4x3 SD.

Also, the ATSC spec does not support 480i wider than 720x480. Widescreen 480i always has rectangular pixels.

- Trip

This TV is only provided in 4x3 SD.

Also, the ATSC spec does not support 480i wider than 720x480. Widescreen 480i always has rectangular pixels.

- Trip

Yeah thanks Trip;

With some 18 formats technically included in the ATSC standard I couldn't remember if there was a wide screen version for 480i among them or not. I know there is one specified for 480P as once used by Fox as an "enhanced definition" format used during an interim period before their conversion 720P HD, but I wasn't sure about 480i.

However, as I said I really don't think it would make any difference for ThisTV since all the film based source material they broadcast appears to be 4:3 pan & scan video produced by telecine.

The table of resolutions was never adopted by the FCC, so there's no reason a station can't run something other than the 640x480 and 704x480 listed. Many stations run 528x480i and even 480x480i subchannels. 16:9 704x480i was even part of the table, and does see occasional use. The one that comes to mind is KBAK up in Bakersfield running Fox HD downconverted to 16:9 704x480i on a subchannel.

Technically, 480i widescreen does work. We could switch to it and suprisingly the bit rate is the same (really). There are a few hurdles though.

I pitched it in the early stages of our launch and our test bed of stations had no interest although I think it is a good idea. Your market showed the most interest of anyone. If we go this route, we have to insure that the library material is 16x9 and 4:3 "safe" for stations who will only take 4:3. Something possibly for the future.

The other factor has been what someone posted earlier. Although the FCC did not adopt it, you don't know what STB manufactures did... I still fear that there are 10% of the tuners that go into freak out mode and don't display properly or at all. Never formally researched it and not sure if you really can other than take it to air in a large market and see what happens from a complaint standpoint. If it passes in NY, LA, or CHI, it will probably pass everywhere else. Crude approach but no way to test 50 STB units in a station lab. 480p is another approach but this is a HD format and will require MUCH more bandwdith than a 480i. Our current transport stream, video/audio/data is about 3.9 mb.

As for subchannels. 40 mb HD is non-sense. This is the 1999 approach. The encoders make all the difference. We air HD sports in Chicago (cubs/sox/bulls) in 720p capped at 12 mb and to date we have 0 complaints about pixel. We receive probably 20 emails a year of viewers saying why can't you talk to the other broadcast station in town and show them how you do it. They have 1 1080i and one 480i sub. We have 1 720p and 4 480i. It's all in the encoders...

The table of resolutions was never adopted by the FCC, so there's no reason a station can't run something other than the 640x480 and 704x480 listed. Many stations run 528x480i and even 480x480i subchannels. 16:9 704x480i was even part of the table, and does see occasional use. The one that comes to mind is KBAK up in Bakersfield running Fox HD downconverted to 16:9 704x480i on a subchannel.

Technically, 480i widescreen does work. We could switch to it and suprisingly the bit rate is the same (really)...

Oh, so I guess Trip was not right I see in that there actually is a 16:9 wide screen format included in the ATSC standard.

I also got brain-lock earlier by assuming wide screen SD would use "square" pixels as in the HD standards of 720 and 1080i/p. Thus my earlier statement about requiring a higher bandwidth to transmit a 16:9 480i signal of ~855x480 pixels.

So I take it then that the signal for 16:9 wide screen SD would be a 480i signal in an 704x480 array of "rectangular" pixels ~21% longer in the horizontal dimension than in the vertical?

I have seen data on more than 700 stations, and I've never ever seen a 480i picture wider than 720 pixels. Here's a list I threw together in about 20 minutes a few days ago of all stations I am aware of that are doing widescreen 480i along with their respective resolutions if that data is available to me:

http://www.rabbitears.info/oddsandends.php?request=widesd

I've seen the following resolutions on any 480i, widescreen or not:

352x480i
480x480i
528x480i
544x480i
640x480i
704x480i
720x480i

Not all receivers handle the non-ATSC spec ones properly. I have a receiver that shows me a 480x480i picture crushed against the left side of the screen.

How was I not right? I said "rectangular pixels" would be used, which is the case. The spec doesn't support anything wider than 720x480i, and I haven't heard of any encoders supporting anything wider either. Who knows what CECBs would do with it.

- Trip

... How was I not right? I said "rectangular pixels" would be used, which is the case. The spec doesn't support anything wider than 720x480i, and I haven't heard of any encoders supporting anything wider either. Who knows what CECBs would do with it.

- Trip

Apparently you were right Trip, sorry. :o I thought in your earlier post you were claiming the ATSC standard only allowed for *4:3 aspect ratios* in 480i SD. However after a rereading I now see that you were actually claiming there are no *pixel grids* beyond 720x480 for the SD format whether in 16:9 or 4:3.

My apologies...

But just to make sure my basic mathematics are correct here, I gather the pixel shape for a 720x480 maximum array in a *4:3* SD signal would also be rectangular, but in this case ~13% longer vertically than horizontally?

Technically, 480i widescreen does work. We could switch to it and suprisingly the bit rate is the same (really).

DVDs are 720x480. I don't understand why 480i cannot be broadcast in this format, and have near DVD quality. I expect probably bandwidth would be a problem, and perhaps our TV sets cannot decode rectangular pixels using the 480i standard, or at least not rectangular in the sense that the image could fill a 16:9 screen.

I'm really annoyed at all the 16:9 material broadcast in 480i, and letterboxed. By the time they letterbox it the lines at top and bottom are black, so the actual picture even if zoomed is significantly less than 480 lines. It looks terrible!

I don't understand why 480i cannot be broadcast in this format, and have near DVD quality.

No reason it can't, with the caveat that 4x3 material would lose 25% of its horizontal resolution to the pillars.

But as others here note now that ThisTV has formally begun broadcasting, the PQ is remarkably good for a sub-channel, at least for the film based material they show. Though I do concede that from what I've observed on sub-channels elsewhere, live video aside from talking-heads is on the whole poor, especially so for fast motion scenes.
Believe me, I would love to be wrong about this and to see it finally work well. Not so much for the secondary sub channel as for the main channel.

I pitched it in the early stages of our launch and our test bed of stations had no interest although I think it is a good idea. Your market showed the most interest of anyone. If we go this route, we have to insure that the library material is 16x9 and 4:3 "safe" for stations who will only take 4:3. Something possibly for the future.
Let's hope they see the light. Because if the material ever does become 16x9 it is rather painful to watch it in 4x3

As for subchannels. 40 mb HD is non-sense. This is the 1999 approach. The encoders make all the difference. We air HD sports in Chicago (cubs/sox/bulls) in 720p capped at 12 mb and to date we have 0 complaints about pixel. We receive probably 20 emails a year of viewers saying why can't you talk to the other broadcast station in town and show them how you do it. They have 1 1080i and one 480i sub. We have 1 720p and 4 480i. It's all in the encoders...
The encoders may well be the difference. However, all I was saying was that no one seems to have ones that work well, or at all. Every station, without exception, that has subchannels, has their main channel picture suffer. And suffer significantly, and most of them seem to allocate about 2M for each secondary subchannel. I'll refrain from mentioning the fact that the content on most of these subchannels is of questionable usefulness.
It would indeed be great news to see if this can be made to work, as the subchannel orgy is unlikely to go away.:mad:

Rudy

P.S. A lot of great info posted here. Thanks guys.

The encoders may well be the difference. However, all I was saying was that no one seems to have ones that work well, or at all.

I'm with you on this one. I read a lot of theories about how better encoders eliminate these issues, but my eyes have never seen evidence of this. Maybe I'm too critical?

I've sampled a lot of shows on ThisTV, and find it rather remarkable that some think this looks almost as good as film-based HD content from network TV. No knock on ThisTV -- it's SD, and no matter if it was sent to my home at full-tilt 270 Mb/s, it still wouldn't look like HD. Not to me anyway.

DVDs are 720x480. I don't understand why 480i cannot be broadcast in this format, and have near DVD quality. I expect probably bandwidth would be a problem, and perhaps our TV sets cannot decode rectangular pixels using the 480i standard, or at least not rectangular in the sense that the image could fill a 16:9 screen.

I'm really annoyed at all the 16:9 material broadcast in 480i, and letterboxed. By the time they letterbox it the lines at top and bottom are black, so the actual picture even if zoomed is significantly less than 480 lines. It looks terrible!

I agree completely. BTW it is interesting to note that good DVD's of 4:3 material (old TV shows, movies etc.) can often look almost like HD on displays set for 4:3 material, since the 720 pixels are concentrated in the inner 75% of the picture, giving an effective horizontal resolution of 960 lines!

I really concur about the ridiculous practice of letterboxing 16:9 material. This was often done by KCET on HD PBS programs like Nova, etc., resulting in a small picture that definitely was not HD. Did they really expect people to watch that? Also it is amazing how many TV commercials use litterboxed 16:9 material. When will they finally get it right?

WHOA!

KPXN 30.1 is in HD!

WHOA!

KPXN 30.1 is in HD!

Very interesting;

What program was it? Right now I'm receiving the religious show "Inspirational Ministry Campmeeting" (11:00 AM-1:00 PM PST) on KPXN-DT 30.1 in the usual 16:9 pillar-box display for up-converted 4:3 SD programs with blue colored matte bars for the pillars.

Very interesting;

What program was it? Right now I'm receiving the religious show "Inspirational Ministry Campmeeting" (11:00 AM-1:00 PM PST) on KPXN-DT 30.1 in the usual 16:9 pillar-box display for up-converted 4:3 SD programs with blue colored matte bars for the pillars.

Usual? On KPXN? :D

Usual? On KPXN? :D

I thought you meant that KPXN was actually televising native HD programming on their HD channel 30.1. But they're not, it's all still 4:3 SD material up-converted to the HD 720P format. Unless that's what you are referring to, in that you just noticed KPXN-DT is broadcasting in the HD 720P format on 30.1. However I think they have been doing this for sometime now.

I've sampled a lot of shows on ThisTV, and find it rather remarkable that some think this looks almost as good as film-based HD content from network TV. No knock on ThisTV -- it's SD, and no matter if it was sent to my home at full-tilt 270 Mb/s, it still wouldn't look like HD. Not to me anyway.

Any chance that you're using an LCD panel for viewing?
I can't recall ever reading good things about (analog or digitial) SD content on an LCD direct-view HDTV.
FWIW I'm using an ATSC tuner in an HTPC (nVidia graphics) to upscale, and sending it to a CRT front PJ. So I don't expect to see a razor-sharp image like a digital panel. There is enough sharpness to see, for example, the detail in the beach panorama shot in "Two and a Half Men" versus the softness of the in-studio scenes. I'd rate "Law & Order" as having "average" PQ, and the the benchmark I'm using for comparison to HTPC-upscaled ThisTV.

Regards

If this post is redundant, I apologize. I have not read all of the many posts here.

I offer this with the Idea that some may be helped.

1. As of June 12 there will be several DTV stations operating on their original analog VHF channels, KABC-7, KCAL-9, KTTV-11 and KCOP-13.
UHF antennas may perform poorly on these channels. Also all DTV receivers / converters will have to be re-channel scanned to lock in on these stations after June 12.

2. KCBS-DT will move to RF channel 43, using the present KCAL DTV antenna, thus will no longer be transmitting from a tower about a half-mile west of most other stations. This should make aiming high gain antennas easier.

3. Polarization of the signal, normally horizontal, often flips to vertical when passing over hiltop ridgelines or being reflected. This is especially likelly with indoor antennas. Try both vertical as well as horizontal orientation of the antenna elements. The "Silver Sensor" antenna makes this easy as the element boom is a slip fit into the mount arm and thus is easily positioned with the elements vertically.

4. Multipath is the bugaboo of digital reception. This happens when the signal is received direct line of sight from the transmitter, and also indirectly bouced of some RF reflective surface. Both signals arriving with a time difference of nano-seconds. The effect is similar to reference clock jitter.
There are some locations that get a more reliable signal from the "bounce" than from the direct signal. The higher the gain of the antenna (more elements usually) the better the rejection of multipath signals.

5. Tuning an antenna by watching a picture or a receiver's built-in signal meter takes a lot of patience, because of the delay inherent in the decoding process. There is a delay between the time you move the antenna and the result is shown. Tediously, one must move the antenna a small bit, wait for the result and try again.

6. In some cases the use of a high gain antenna with a RF amplifier can bring in too much of a good thing. Receivers are sensitive to overload, and at the power levels transmitted by most local stations it isn't hard to present the receiver with too strong a signal when an amplifier is used. Amplifiers are most useful when necessary to drive a long feedline from the antenna or to make up for loss through a RF splitter used to feed several sets.

Good luck! Digital pix and sound are soooo much better than analog, even on older analog CRTs.

Tony

Any chance that you're using an LCD panel for viewing?
I can't recall ever reading good things about (analog or digitial) SD content on an LCD direct-view HDTV.
FWIW I'm using an ATSC tuner in an HTPC (nVidia graphics) to upscale, and sending it to a CRT front PJ. So I don't expect to see a razor-sharp image like a digital panel. There is enough sharpness to see, for example, the detail in the beach panorama shot in "Two and a Half Men" versus the softness of the in-studio scenes. I'd rate "Law & Order" as having "average" PQ, and the the benchmark I'm using for comparison to HTPC-upscaled ThisTV.

Regards

This may well be the effect of poor or mediocre signal processing, which is found more often than not in both LCD's and plasmas. The sets with the best signal processing are usually Pioneer (plasma) and the higher end Sonys (LCD). At present I have a 60" Pioneer Elite KURO set which does an amazingly good job on good SD material. On the other hand, I also have a small Sony 720p LCD which I use with a set top box. The HD broadcasts look very good (for 720p, that is), but the SD does always look very soft. However, it is a very old model and not at all representative of what is availabe today. I intend to replace it soon with a new model.

Any chance that you're using an LCD panel for viewing?
I can't recall ever reading good things about (analog or digitial) SD content on an LCD direct-view HDTV.

I have three different types of display devices: A 1366x768 LCD, a 1920x1080 plasma, and a Sony professional multi-format direct-view CRT. I would certainly agree that I have not seen a good looking SD picture on ANY flat-panel set, so there is a disadvantage when attempting to evaluate an SD image using one of those.

So for instance, SD DVDs look very good when I watch them on the Sony CRT monitor -- but quite soft on either the LCD or plasma. However, HD sources look even better on the CRT, especially since this particular monitor can display 480i, 720p, or 1080i in their native format (ie: no scaling).

I thought you meant that KPXN was actually televising native HD programming on their HD channel 30.1. But they're not, it's all still 4:3 SD material up-converted to the HD 720P format. Unless that's what you are referring to, in that you just noticed KPXN-DT is broadcasting in the HD 720P format on 30.1. However I think they have been doing this for sometime now.

The change to 720p was relatively recent (may have just happened) as ION rolls out HD *capability* across the country. I will try to remember to do some spot checks to see if they actually have any HD *programs*.

Speaking of which, has KDOC had any HD programs since they stopped the local news broadcasts? That was the only program I ever saw in HD on that station.

...I really concur about the ridiculous practice of letterboxing 16:9 material. This was often done by KCET on HD PBS programs like Nova, etc., resulting in a small picture that definitely was not HD. Did they really expect people to watch that?...

I wonder if the case with PBS programs like Nova doing this has something to do with their policy of handling different "package" types of HD up-converted 4:3 material. For instance note the final category labeled "HD-Upconverted Breadbox" listed in their technical Guide I located on the web called "HD Upconverted Package Types" (See the attached PDF document).

As it states, if the original source material is in 16:9 letterbox, yet contains *significant* 4:3 elements (text, graphics, etc. in or protruding into the matte areas), their equipment is set to convert it to a "Breadbox" or "postage-stamp" image in the HD up-conversion process to prevent that material from being cut-off. But this is listed as the "exception to the rule" however, as the normal default selection is to be the "HD-Upconverted Letterbox" category listed earlier (again see attached document) for original standard definition 16:9 letterbox programs to completely fill a 16:9 screen while sacrificing some picture quality and any graphic material extending into the top and bottom matte bars.

... Also it is amazing how many TV commercials use litterboxed 16:9 material. When will they finally get it right?

What I can gather from this is that the majority of sponsors ads are either already in or they can not afford to have their commercials produced in HD as of yet. And the letterboxing of 16:9 material in the SD commercials are done for the benefit of the large installed base of 4:3 TV sets as it allows more artistic freedom to emphasize any text and other graphical information inserted into the black matte areas due to maximum contrast.

... Speaking of which, has KDOC had any HD programs since they stopped the local news broadcasts? That was the only program I ever saw in HD on that station.

Well... without the local news now I'm not sure how KDOC can actually show any native HD programming since they mainly broadcast classic TV shows from the 60's through the 80's, or is basically an OTA version of the satellite/cable channel "TVLand."

And BTW, for those in the know here that is ;)

How would it actually have to be done to create native HD programming for such a schedule of old shows as KDOC telecasts? Wouldn't you have to find the original film prints of those classic programs like "Hogans Heros," "Andy Griffith," "Get Smart," Michael's Navy," and so forth, and then scan them with HD telecine equipment?

Speaking of which, has KDOC had any HD programs since they stopped the local news broadcasts? That was the only program I ever saw in HD on that station.

I think I might have seen them air a basketball game in HD a month or two ago, but I may be misremembering.

How would it actually have to be done to create native HD programming for such a schedule of old shows as KDOC telecasts? Wouldn't you have to find the original film prints of those classic programs like "Hogans Heros," "Andy Griffith," "Get Smart," Michael's Navy," and so forth, and then scan them with HD telecine equipment?

Syndication prints would all be 16mm, and thus not suitable for HD even if they were in decent condition. It would be up to the owners of the shows to do the HD transfers from the original 35mm negatives.

It could happen ... Paramount already did it with the original Star Trek ... but it would be way too expensive to do it for just one station. I'd say of all those shows, Andy Griffith has the best shot at HD-dom.

HDNet already had HD transfers done for Hogan's Heroes, and they were also aired on Universal HD after the run on HDNet finished. There's definitely significant cost involved in redoing the transfers and cleaning them up for HD broadcast, and then there's an even bigger issue of distributing them to affiliates. Stations able to receive and broadcast syndicated content in HD are still in the minority, so until more have the opportunity to upgrade their plants to digital/HD, the benefits of redoing syndication masters in HD are limited.

Well... without the local news now I'm not sure how KDOC can actually show any native HD programming since they mainly broadcast classic TV shows from the 60's through the 80's, or is basically an OTA version of the satellite/cable channel "TVLand."

Ducks games in HD would have been nice...

...which reminds me, are Angels games still stuck on SD as well on KCOP?

At least the Lakers, Dodgers and Clippers get it right.

HDNet already had HD transfers done for Hogan's Heroes, and they were also aired on Universal HD after the run on HDNet finished. There's definitely significant cost involved in redoing the transfers and cleaning them up for HD broadcast, and then there's an even bigger issue of distributing them to affiliates. Stations able to receive and broadcast syndicated content in HD are still in the minority, so until more have the opportunity to upgrade their plants to digital/HD, the benefits of redoing syndication masters in HD are limited.

As you may know, Paramount will be releasing the original Star Trek series in HD on Blu-ray, starting with season 1 on April 28. I supposed it could also be aired in HD someday for those interested in watching it that way, i.e., OTA.

Ducks games in HD would have been nice...



Oh great, more games preempting regular programming - just what we need!

......which reminds me, are Angels games still stuck on SD as well on KCOP?

As far as I can tell, still yes unfortunately :( . At least there's no indication of a scheduled HD telecast in DirecTV's program guide description of their next upcoming game against the Minn. Twins (4/19; 11:00 AM-2:00 PM) on KCOP's DTV channel 13.1.

Oh great, more games preempting regular programming - just what we need!

Huh? Upgrading the broadcasts to HD vs. SD won't change the fact that it is pre-empting programming. I don't watch anything else on KDOC but Ducks games anyway. Same with KCOP and Angels games.

When are stations going to get the transition notifications back up to speed? I know most of us here are tired of seeing PSA's, etc., but a quick look at KNBC's buried DTV page shows that they have done essentially nothing in the past couple months. The main article is still that the transition has been delayed:

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/station/digitaltv/Get_the_Picture.html

Only one of the side-bars have been updated.

Anyone know what happened? It was off sometime after 7 PM, and is still down at 9:30 PM. :(

10:41 PM - KNBC coming in just dandy in central OC.

KNBC was off for me also in Santa Monica. Off time was about 6:45pm. It was still off at 10.

Coming in fine in the Ventura Avenue area of Ventura.

Have there been any reports or studies about how the fringe areas will be affected past June.

I don't ever recall any irregularities with KNBC in the past, but I wasn't watching anything last night. In any case it is fine right now.

When are stations going to get the transition notifications back up to speed? I know most of us here are tired of seeing PSA's, etc., but a quick look at KNBC's buried DTV page shows that they have done essentially nothing in the past couple months. The main article is still that the transition has been delayed:

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/station/digitaltv/Get_the_Picture.html

Only one of the side-bars have been updated.

KNBC does not seem to take its website very seriously. They also are doing some unorthodox programming in their home page that often can cause the IE browser to crash. It seems to have something to do with their "Slideshow & Videos" section which under certain specific circumstances fails to load properly. They have had this problem for several years.

KNBC HD was off for me as well, 4-14-09 at around 8:00 pm. I'm in the Temple City area with signals strength usually 80% to 100%. It was back by 10:00 pm.

They were definitely MIA last evening. I accidentally noticed it around 7:30PM. I periodically checked over the next few hours and they were back sometime after 9:30PM. Wasn't planning to watch anything on that channel anyway last night. :D

Off air this morning around 2. For about 30 minutes.

Off air this morning around 2. For about 30 minutes.

Hmmm ... I wonder if they were testing the DTV Channel 7 transmitter?

BTW ... do you ever sleep? :D

How can you sleep if your not paying for all this free tv!

I'm new to this forum and hoping to switch from cable to OTA HDTV. I live in an apartment in Santa Monica, near 20th & Santa Monica Blvd. (90404) I can't put an antenna on the roof, so I need to find an indoor antenna that works well for my area. Any suggestions?

I'm new to this forum and hoping to switch from cable to OTA HDTV. I live in an apartment in Santa Monica, near 20th & Santa Monica Blvd. (90404) I can't put an antenna on the roof, so I need to find an indoor antenna that works well for my area. Any suggestions?


Good luck. You're 25-30 miles from Mt Wilson. Whatever you get, put in a window facing that way.

Good luck. You're 25-30 miles from Mt Wilson. Whatever you get, put in a window facing that way.

Exactly. And try to get the best performing indoor antenna you can, because digitil TV requires somewhat better reception conditions than you can get away with, using analog.

[QUOTE=ljshapiro;16298800]I'm new to this forum and hoping to switch from cable to OTA HDTV. I live in an apartment in Santa Monica, near 20th & Santa Monica Blvd. (90404) I can't put an antenna on the roof, so I need to find an indoor antenna that works well for my area.

The problem is when the stations switch back to their original channels you will need an indoor antenna that can receive both VHF and UHF. The only antenna that does that is an amplified rabbit ear with an UHF loop.

Like in the old days, you have to adjust the positions and ear lengths for each channel for the best reception.

Good Luck

I'm new to this forum and hoping to switch from cable to OTA HDTV. I live in an apartment in Santa Monica, near 20th & Santa Monica Blvd. (90404) I can't put an antenna on the roof, so I need to find an indoor antenna that works well for my area. Any suggestions?

Certainly not to be generous with your money, as I know you want the financial savings of turning off cable altogether for free OTA digital TV. But indoor antennas are really iffy "hit and miss" solutions for apartment and other MDU dwellers attempting to receive off-air DTV. Therefore unless the building owners supply a master outside antenna system (MATV) for the residents your much better off simply switching your cable package to only basic broadcast and avoid the hassle.

I'm new to this forum and hoping to switch from cable to OTA HDTV. I live in an apartment in Santa Monica, near 20th & Santa Monica Blvd. (90404) I can't put an antenna on the roof, so I need to find an indoor antenna that works well for my area. Any suggestions?

If you have a view towards Mt. Wilson, this should not be complicated, unless you have buildings in the way.

I can get most of my locals at 51 miles w/o LOS with a $10 rabbit ear/loop combo. It is cheap to try and certainly a lot cheaper than cable. Try an un-amped version first. Amps can easily cause more problems than they solve.

I'm surprised at all the pessimistic responses above.

I'm new to this forum and hoping to switch from cable to OTA HDTV. I live in an apartment in Santa Monica, near 20th & Santa Monica Blvd. (90404) I can't put an antenna on the roof, so I need to find an indoor antenna that works well for my area. Any suggestions?
I'm one block west of Bundy, between Santa Monica and Wilshire. Using my Zenith ZHDTV1 Silver Sensor pointed and angled correctly I get about 60 digital channels.

Rudy

If you have a view towards Mt. Wilson, this should not be complicated, unless you have buildings in the way.

I can get most of my locals at 51 miles w/o LOS with a $10 rabbit ear/loop combo. It is cheap to try and certainly a lot cheaper than cable. Try an un-amped version first. Amps can easily cause more problems than they solve.

I'm surprised at all the pessimistic responses above.

You are lucky. In much of the LA area, Mt. Wilson is not LOS.
Here in the NW San Fernando Valley (Porter Ranch area) reception of some local stations such as KCET and KTTV can be a challenge at times, i.e. when it is windy or rainy, even with good roof antennas and antenna-mounted preamps. Mt. Wilson is only 25-30 miles away LOS, but it is not quite line-of-sight. By contrast, I always felt I had good analog reception here.

JShapiro.

Welcome to Over The Air (OTA) television. Get the right converter box, and antenna, limit splitters, or use a switch, and use as little cable RG-6 as possible.

Cancel the cable, and listen to AM/FM radio in lieu of basic cable or a paid Satellite system. Keep money where it belongs, with you.

... I'm surprised at all the pessimistic responses above.

Sorry;

Didn't mean to come off as "pessimistic" to you or the OP, though some of it was due to my being rather tired from work yesterday along with this mini (hopefully) heat wave here in L.A. which had me uncomfortable in addition to getting my allergy up. So it would probably have been better not to comment at all under those circumstances.

But since I did, then please, by all means I encourage the OP to try out all you said and best of luck. It's just in my experience and from what I've read repeatedly over time is that indoor aerial solutions are quite unreliable and a good rooftop antenna to always your surest bet for reliable OTA reception. However I realize that this is not always an option for people particularly in apartments and other MDU situations. Thus my recommendation (finances permitting of course) of a basic cable broadcast package since the OP already has the service installed.

I'm new to this forum and hoping to switch from cable to OTA HDTV. I live in an apartment in Santa Monica, near 20th & Santa Monica Blvd. (90404) I can't put an antenna on the roof, so I need to find an indoor antenna that works well for my area. Any suggestions?
If you enter your location into www.tvfool.com, you'll find that your area
(like most of L.A. area) is FLOODED with strong signals from high atop Mt Wilson.
Indeed, one research firm found that 75% of Americans watched TV
using an INDOOR antenna....

The better indoor TV antennas are AMPLIFIED and DIRECTIONAL,
(to suppress multipath) rather than omnidirectional (e.g. RCA Flat Panels)
or bi-directional (typical RabbitEars+UHFLoop)....but both could work....

I would recommend the PHDTV3 amplified Silver Sensor with Rabbit Ears
for VHF and has an enclosure to protect the fragile antenna elements:
http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PHDTV3-Indoor-Amplified-Antenna/dp/B000B58VNM

or the Terk HDTVa Klone:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882145017

Here's the indoor antenna review thread...although EV is looking for
an OMNIDIRECTIONAL antenna due to wide variance in signal directions:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779

Livewell HD

Assuming that KABC is following other ABC O&O's, we will have to deal with an *HD sub-channel* on KABC.

ABC's picture quality isn't that great already, but it looks like it's going to only go downhill from here.

Here is the schedule:

http://livewellhd.com/feature?id=6756341

This new channel will have the same 6 programs repeating throughout the day with apparently some openings available for existing "+" programming.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_Well_HD_Network

Let the excitement begin. :rolleyes:

Livewell HD

Assuming that KABC is following other ABC O&O's, we will have to deal with an *HD sub-channel* on KABC.

ABC's picture quality isn't that great already, but it looks like it's going to only go downhill from here...



That will be an unprecidented move here! Two HD subchannels at once - I don't think it could possibly look very good at all. At 720p to begin with, I wonder how "HD" it could still be!

That will be an unprecidented move here! Two HD subchannels at once - I don't think it could possibly look very good at all. At 720p to begin with, I wonder how "HD" it could still be!

Of course this gets into the classic "which is better 720P vs. 1080i" debate, but I thought the reality is that they both transmit approximately the same amount of information as an HD standard and thus require about same amounts of bandwidth. For instance what 720P looses to 1080i in transmitted lines per frame, it pretty much regains in the 2X frame rate of 60/s as opposed to 30/s for 1080i.

However, I agree in how I do not see this as very practical since a good quality HD signal of either format is around 10-12 mb/s at MPEG-2. So one of the sub-channels is going to have to suffer some appreciable degradation here.

That will be an unprecidented move here! Two HD subchannels at once - I don't think it could possibly look very good at all. At 720p to begin with, I wonder how "HD" it could still be!

It looks awful on ABC O&O WTVD in RDU, NC. Just discovered it today and not sure if 11.1 or 11.2 looks worse. Bad move on ABC's part. JMHO

......
However, I agree in how I do not see this as very practical since a good quality HD signal of either format is around 10-12 mb/s at MPEG-2. So one of the sub-channels is going to have to suffer some appreciable degradation here.
Hmmm interesting that you would say that. I am yet to see anything below 15 Mb/s look good, or be macroblocking free.

Rudy

Of course this gets into the classic "which is better 720P vs. 1080i" debate, but I thought the reality is that they both transmit approximately the same amount of information as an HD standard and thus require about same amounts of bandwidth. For instance what 720P looses to 1080i in transmitted lines per frame, it pretty much regains in the 2X frame rate of 60/s as opposed to 30/s for 1080i.

However, I agree in how I do not see this as very practical since a good quality HD signal of either format is around 10-12 mb/s at MPEG-2. So one of the sub-channels is going to have to suffer some appreciable degradation here.

I think there is no question that 1080i can look significantly better that 720p, but only if the equipment used by the network and station is good enough to take advantage of it. And this seldom seems to be the case, with the except of the graphics used in news and weather broadcasts, etc. For example, the in-studio cameras used by chs. 2 and 9 always look a bit soft to me, although the graphics are always sharp. And most of the remote camaras, although 16:9, appear to be only SD. And KNBC still seems to use 4:3 SD remote cameras exclusively, making their HD local news something of a joke. At least KABC, although only 720p, seems to use more remote HD cameras than the others.

Anyway, let us hope that if KABC does go ahaed with this plan, they will only "starve" the second subchannel of bit rate so that 7.1 is not further degraded.

Assuming that KABC is following other ABC O&O's, we will have to deal with an *HD sub-channel* on KABC.

ABC's picture quality isn't that great already, but it looks like it's going to only go downhill from here.

There's no assumption. KABC made a very big splash on their news programs today. By tomorrow it will be operating--if it isn't up already.

That will be an unprecidented move here! Two HD subchannels at once - I don't think it could possibly look very good at all. At 720p to begin with, I wonder how "HD" it could still be!

I'm amazed too. I've already realized that the 1080 vs 720 could have a lot to do with what's left over for sub-channels, but I never dreamed you could have two 720s going at the same time.

I've been wondering if they are just using the wrong terminology, saying "high definition" when they meant "digital," i.e. just another SD sub-channel.

Of course this gets into the classic "which is better 720P vs. 1080i" debate, but I thought the reality is that they both transmit approximately the same amount of information as an HD standard and thus require about same amounts of bandwidth. For instance what 720P looses to 1080i in transmitted lines per frame, it pretty much regains in the 2X frame rate of 60/s as opposed to 30/s for 1080i.

However, I agree in how I do not see this as very practical since a good quality HD signal of either format is around 10-12 mb/s at MPEG-2. So one of the sub-channels is going to have to suffer some appreciable degradation here.

I've often thought the same thing. Upon the initial debut of HDTV and upon reading the tech literature I didn't see how 1008i could possibly be better than 720p, since the 1080i requires significantly more compression. I thought it was just moving the interpolation from the receiver to the station. Now that I've seen the difference I believe my lying eyes. Even on a 720 television I'm convinced that I can see the difference, that 1080i looks better. It's subtle but I believe the 1080i looks better.

You've all read Randy Hoffner's piece (http://www.bluesky-web.com/numbers-mean-little.htm), right? It made a lot of sense when I first read it, but that was way before I ever had my own HDTV. Now that I've seen the difference (or lack thereof) to me the report just doesn't play out.

Here in Los Angeles it seems that the 720p stations are running more sub-channels on the average. I had assumed the 1080 vs 720 trade-off had something to do with the ability to host sub-channels.

It will be amusing to see the signal tomorrow. I don't see how they can pull it off. But hey, let's just see it tomorrow. I've never seen two HD channels on the same carrier...

And worse, I'm a cooking enthusiast interested in healthy cooking--and their channel concept looks really sucky. I'll be amazed if they attract an audience.

I've been wondering if they are just using the wrong terminology, saying "high definition" when they meant "digital," i.e. just another SD sub-channel.

Six of the ten ABC O&O stations have launched the dual 720p. It's not mistaken terminology.

- Trip

Six of the ten ABC O&O stations have launched the dual 720p. It's not mistaken terminology.

Thanks! As I said it will be amusing to see it tomorrow. If it isn't already up in test mode. We shall see.

Not up as of this writing, er, typing. Tomorrow is another day.

Today is another day. It's up. Two 720P subchannels AND the 528x480 weather thing!

Zarquon's Knees, it looks crummy. It's PQ like this that led me to leave DirecTV in 1999. I find it hard to believe this is going to last. Even Bob Iger should be able to see the massive breakup on every crossfade.

Quickly eyeballing it on EyeTV's realtime bitrate counter, looks like 5 to 11 Mbps (averaging around 9) on the two HDs, and 2 Mbps on the weather thing. I would think it would actually look a little better than this at those rates. Outdated encoder?

Yes, they actually did it! I just checked KABC, and they indeed are carrying two 720p channels, and, as expected they both look terrible. At present, neither looks even as good as decent 480i. It will be interesting to check out their local news later today; it used to look fairly good.

Using the USB tuner at the office 7.2 looks simply terrible, with macro blocking most evident with simple motions (arm waving, etc.). 7.1 didn't look at bad as 7.2, but I will have to check it out on a real TV when I get home.

It doesn't look as bad to me as the reports above stated, but 7.1 looks noticeably degraded from yesterday if my memory is accurate. I could be wrong but at first glance 7.2 looks worse than 7.1. That could be just my imagination.

Now not that I condone multi casting, but just wanted to bring up the fact that any time a service is launched it tends to look terrible in the first few days (sometimes weeks) until all the bugs are worked out of it.
Of course, this may well remain terrible all along, but who knows.

Rudy

Using the USB tuner at the office 7.2 looks simply terrible, with macro blocking most evident with simple motions (arm waving, etc.). 7.1 didn't look at bad as 7.2, but I will have to check it out on a real TV when I get home.

Exactly my assessment so far, word for word! I also noticed horrendous artifacts as well. I switched to KTTV (also 720p) and was utterly blown away at how much better it looked!

Quickly eyeballing it on EyeTV's realtime bitrate counter, looks like 5 to 11 Mbps (averaging around 9) on the two HDs, and 2 Mbps on the weather thing. I would think it would actually look a little better than this at those rates. Outdated encoder?Nope: Single-pass "state-of-the-art" Harris NetVX encoders. On those things, 720p should be at least in the 12.5 to 14.5 Mbps range.

I took some screen caps of 7.1 and 7.2. The 7.1 "HD" cap was from this morning, though the field cam doesn't appear to be HD. 7.2 was from a few minutes ago.

Have a look at the hands on 7.2, where macro-blocking is evident with small amounts of motion. 7.1 was showing SD at the time and didn't appear to be suffering as much (reference cap provided).

If I get some time tonight, I will try again and save the results as .bmps, though they may be too large to upload here.

Edit: Added a 2nd cap for another LW program. Artifacts are obvious throughout.

Attached is a cap of Dancing with the Stars last night, along with a typical TSR. 7.1 was averaging around 9.5Mbps and 7.2 around 5.5Mbps when both were showing HD programming. 7.3 was around 2Mbps. The null packet bin was still collecting around 1Mbps.

When someone says that 720p and 1080i have the same bit rate they are talking about 1080i/24 and 720p/60. However since most source material except sports is 24 fps most 720p transmissions are actually 720p/24. Thus 720p/24 is actually half the bitrate of 1080i/24.

This leads me to what I have believed for over 10 years. The stations that use 720p are actually wanting to use a lower bitrate so they can multicast. This argument that 720p was better than 1080i was a smokescreen. They really just want to multicast. ABC has proven my worst fears to be true.

Rick R

Attached is a bit rate chart for KABC from a few minutes ago, when both 7.1 and 7.2 were showing SD (4:3) programming. I will re-run later when HD programs are being shown.

Attached is a bit rate chart for KABC from a few minutes ago, when both 7.1 and 7.2 were showing SD (4:3) programming. I will re-run later when HD programs are being shown.

Do you have any figures for bit rates on 7.1 before 7.2 went to 720p?

Do you have any figures for bit rates on 7.1 before 7.2 went to 720p?

Attached are the TSR's from June. Unfortunately, I can't verify if KABC was showing HD programming at the time of the TSR, but it had 5Mbps in null packets. However, 6/2 was a Monday night and the results were captured in the 10pm slot, if anyone can remember what was on.

7.1: 9.2
7.2: 1.9
7.3: 1.9
Null: 5.4

Even if it was an HD program it could have been during a commercial.

Attached are the TSR's from June. Unfortunately, I can't verify if KABC was showing HD programming at the time of the TSR, but it had 5Mbps in null packets. However, 6/2 was a Monday night and the results were captured in the 10pm slot, if anyone can remember what was on.

7.1: 9.2
7.2: 1.9
7.3: 1.9
Null: 5.4

Even if it was an HD program it could have been during a commercial.


Thanks! Well it looks like the recent bit rate was almost as high, i.e., ~8.8 versus the 9.2 before, but subjectively the PQ definitely does not seem to be as good.

Remember that TSReader gives average bitrates rather than peak bitrates, so what you're seeing is an average over time. Before Live Well showed up, the 7-1 feed might have retained some low number on average and then spiked to a higher number when there was motion or something, then dropped back down, thus keeping the average at that lower number. That would cause a low number to show but with better overall PQ.

Live Well shows up and now 7-1 can't spike anymore to capture the motion properly, it turns into blocks.

- Trip

Remember that TSReader gives average bitrates rather than peak bitrates, so what you're seeing is an average over time. Before Live Well showed up, the 7-1 feed might have retained some low number on average and then spiked to a higher number when there was motion or something, then dropped back down, thus keeping the average at that lower number. That would cause a low number to show but with better overall PQ.

Live Well shows up and now 7-1 can't spike anymore to capture the motion properly, it turns into blocks.

- Trip

Thanks for the input. Also, macroblocking is painfully apparent during dissolves, so you don't even need to have any signifcant motion to see the effect.

I can't verify if KABC was showing HD programming at the time of the TSR, but it had 5Mbps in null packets. However, 6/2 was a Monday night and the results were captured in the 10pm slot, if anyone can remember what was on.

7.1: 9.2
7.2: 1.9
7.3: 1.9
Null: 5.4

Even if it was an HD program it could have been during a commercial.That's no excuse to explain for how 7-2 video bitrate could be 1.9 Mbps. That can't be enough for 720p, by any sense of the word. At least 4 Mbps of those nulls could have been added to 7-2 bitrate, right?

That's no excuse to explain for how 7-2 video bitrate could be 1.9 Mbps. That can't be enough for 720p, by any sense of the word. At least 4 Mbps of those nulls could have been added to 7-2 bitrate, right?

That capture was from back when it was SD.

- Trip

That's no excuse to explain for how 7-2 video bitrate could be 1.9 Mbps. That can't be enough for 720p, by any sense of the word. At least 4 Mbps of those nulls could have been added to 7-2 bitrate, right?That capture was from back when it was SD.Whoops; sorry, didn't comprehend that.

When someone says that 720p and 1080i have the same bit rate they are talking about 1080i/24 and 720p/60. However since most source material except sports is 24 fps most 720p transmissions are actually 720p/24. Thus 720p/24 is actually half the bitrate of 1080i/24.

This leads me to what I have believed for over 10 years. The stations that use 720p are actually wanting to use a lower bitrate so they can multicast. This argument that 720p was better than 1080i was a smokescreen. They really just want to multicast. ABC has proven my worst fears to be true.

Rick R

What do you mean? I view most television through a DirecTV HD-DVR with the resolution and aspect ratio setting on "native," and my HD TV set reads the input (via the HDMI cable) as "720P/60" on both DTV sub-channels 7.1 and 7.2. Not "720P/24."

Also, a great deal more than just sports is telecast on the ABC O&Os natively in 720P/60 with all the local news, talk shows, soap operas, news magazines, etc.

What do you mean? I view most television through a DirecTV HD-DVR with the resolution and aspect ratio setting on "native," and my HD TV set reads the input (via the HDMI cable) as "720P/60" on both DTV sub-channels 7.1 and 7.2. Not "720P/24."

Also, a great deal more than just sports is telecast on the ABC O&Os natively in 720P/60 with all the local news, talk shows, soap operas, news magazines, etc.

Although the format setting is 720p/60, the source material for all movies, all SD video, and much HD video is 24 fps. Thus 36 of the 60 frames are repeats. As someone above mentioned many encoders do not simply mark the frame as a repeat without transmitting it, but fade between the two actual frames. However this is just wasting bits and it possibly causes a decrease in perceived resolution.

Rick R

That's a broad and fairly incorrect generalization. SD content is no different from HD, content can be 60Hz or 24Hz. Most new true SD content (not SD downconverted from HD) is in fact 60Hz, since about all that's left in the way of new SD production is cheap reality shows, newscasts at stations that haven't gone HD, and those sports and events that aren't done in HD yet. HD content is probably 50/50. Most scripted series are 24Hz, while news, sports, and reality are 60Hz (Survivor being the oddball in the group at 30Hz). Most HD infotainment shows (think Discovery, Food, History) started out at 60Hz because that's all early HD video cameras could do. Now that cheap HD cams can do 24Hz capture, some have started to make the move to 24Hz, but plenty are still 60.

As for the repeat frame flagging in 720p mode, only a couple encoders can do it, and it breaks some decoders, including the ones E* uses for HD LILs, so it generally isn't used.

I'll appreciate some opinions here on my problem. This applies to ANTENNA off the air ONLY! I am receiving my broadcast television from a roof top ANTENNA! Also, this refers to digital stations only. I don't watch analog stations at all. (I don't have satellite and I don't have cable.)

Recently I have noticed bad audio on my new Sony 46XBR6 when viewing off the air. Audio from my DVD via HDMI is fine. I first noticed the problem during commercials (think "hot" audio) but began noticing it during some programs too, particularly during periods of loud audio. Sometimes it's so annoying that I can't even watch TV.

I hear a garbled or gravely sound in low frequency sounds, and sometimes a hissy/scratchy background in high frequency sounds. It follows the modulation peaks, and there is no problem during quiet parts of the program. In some ways it sounds like intermod, which of course is not applicable to digital broadcasts, or it sounds like an analog FM receiver tuned a bit off channel. The high frequency sounds sound sort of like over-deviation on an old FM receiver.

Here is the reason why I posted in this topic: I'm pretty sure I'm ALSO hearing almost the same distorted sound on my new Samsung 32A450 too! If they've both got bad sound then it can't be a broken/bad TV, can it?

My antenna system is an about 5-6 year old Winegard pointed at Mt. Wilson. I'm in a reasonably good coverage area in the middle of the San Fernando Valley. I've replaced all the cabling with RG6/U which I bought a couple years ago and it has been stored inside all that time. I have one good quality VHF-UHF splitter, and I've temporarily replaced it with a barrel with no improvement noticed. The coax run is about 15 feet from antenna to splitter, then 15 feet from splitter to my TV set's RF input.

I'm kind of concerned because I called Sony customer service (didn't mention the other TV) and they're sending a guy out on Tuesday. He just called me to verify the appointment, and said he's going to replace the motherboard! :eek: I'm sure everybody would agree that whenever you mess with a set there is some risk that something else will break, and a risk that maybe the new part might be worse. I need to decide before Tuesday whether or not to let this guy have at my TV.

My friend who is a CATV tech says it could be cellphone interference. He didn't have any suggestion on how to verify that. I've got at least 3 cell sites within 1/2 mile of here. Is cellphone interference possible?

There's one other thing and this is why I'm asking for your advice. Could it be possible that ALL the stations have bad audio? I've asked around some TV stores and they often blame problems on the broadcasters and not the set. (I watch channels 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 28 and 50. No others.)

So what do you folks hear when viewing broadcast off-the-air stations in Los Angeles? Do they have good audio? Do they have crappy audio sometimes? Could all the Los Angeles stations have bad audio?

Lovehound, if you haven't done so, go into your Sony sound setting menu and set the Sound Mode to standard and set the other menu options to Off. I have a similiar TV and I don't hear what you are describing with OTA signals.

There's no way the antenna, cabling, or interference can be having any effect on the audio. It's digital. Either you have the signal or you don't. The problem is in your equipment, or coming from the station.

Bad audio is epidemic throughout the broadcasting industry - always has been - but I wouldn't expect it all the time. Is there any chance you've blown a speaker? The symptoms certainly match up.

What the h*ll's with Channel 4.1 right now at 5:45pm. One third of the screen is stuck on a picture of a Ford Edge. While the bottom 2 thirds is the normal program in progress.

I loved an interview with a bosomy female that just chopped off her head, leaving what I was truly interested in!

Okay... now they fixed it. Anyone like to explain what technically went wrong?

Lovehound, if you haven't done so, go into your Sony sound setting menu and set the Sound Mode to standard and set the other menu options to Off. I have a similiar TV and I don't hear what you are describing with OTA signals.

I did that. I prefer the Clear Voice and S-FORCE surround settings, but I switched it to "pure vanilla" (factory default, everything zero, normal, etc.) and it didn't help.

There's no way the antenna, cabling, or interference can be having any effect on the audio. It's digital. Either you have the signal or you don't. The problem is in your equipment, or coming from the station.

Bad audio is epidemic throughout the broadcasting industry - always has been - but I wouldn't expect it all the time. Is there any chance you've blown a speaker? The symptoms certainly match up.

I'm an experienced electronic engineer. I agree with everything you said. My post is just addressing that if you ask for help on a forum you have to give every possible detail, to avoid those prolonged Q and A interactions. The best help I can get depends on my giving every possible detail in my OP to save people from asking me lots of questions.

I agree with your conclusions. It's (1) my equipment, or (2) the station(s). I'm seeking advice, has anybody else noticed that many of the LA channels are distorted when the audio level is high?

Additional info: I can route this through my stereo and "hi-fi" speakers, and there is no improvement. It isn't the set's speakers (pathetic as they are).

Analog Shut-Off Times (6/12/09)

KCAL had a DTV program on today and they showed the times that the "VHF" stations would end analog broadcasts. I don't know why they limited it to these, but attached is the listing for those that are interested in the approximate times.

Below is the re-sorted list, by time, vs. by-channel:

KNBC: 6am
KABC: noon
KCBS: 1pm
KCAL: 1pm
KTLA: 10:45pm
KTTV: 11:45pm
KCOP: 11:45pm

Analog Shut-Off Times (6/12/09)

KCAL had a DTV program on today and they showed the times that the "VHF" stations would end analog broadcasts. I don't know why they limited it to these, but attached is the listing for those that are interested in the approximate times.

Below is the re-sorted list, by time, vs. by-channel:

KNBC: 6am
KABC: noon
KCBS: 1pm
KCAL: 1pm
KTLA: 10:45pm
KTTV: 11:45pm
KCOP: 11:45pm

Thank you very much for posting this valuable information. The important thing for us, of course, is that all but one (KNBC) of these stations will be moving their DTV frequencies at those times. Hopefully the UHF stations that will be moving (like KCET) will also tell us in advance, the exact times of their moves as well.

I'll appreciate some opinions here on my problem. This applies to ANTENNA off the air ONLY! I am receiving my broadcast television from a roof top ANTENNA! Also, this refers to digital stations only. I don't watch analog stations at all. (I don't have satellite and I don't have cable.)

Recently I have noticed bad audio on my new Sony 46XBR6 when viewing off the air. Audio from my DVD via HDMI is fine. I first noticed the problem during commercials (think "hot" audio) but began noticing it during some programs too, particularly during periods of loud audio. Sometimes it's so annoying that I can't even watch TV.



I agree with narkspud that there is no way it could be a reception problem. If you are getting a good picture, you should also be getting perfect sound. The only possible exception is that there is a very powerful RF transmitter so near you that it is getting directly into the audio circuits of the set, and that is very unlikely.

Unless I overlooked it, you did not mention the audio setup you are using to listen to OTA broadcasts. If you are using the built-in speakers (not recommended for good sound), you may have defective speakers on audio circuit boards.

You really should feed the audio through a digital connection (i.e., Toslink optical cable, digital coax, etc.) to an AVR or controller. The audio in DTV broadcasts is a huge improvement over analog (which has the living daylights compressed out of it) and some stations even broadcast 5.1 surround sound. DTS HD Master Audio it is not, but some of it is really excellent, and I never hear any obvious distortion on any broadcasts.

The Sony 46XBR6 is an excellent set, and I am really perplexed by your problem! In any case keep us posted as to what you find out.

Thank you very much for posting this valuable information. The important thing for us, of course, is that all but one (KNBC) of these stations will be moving their DTV frequencies at those times. Hopefully the UHF stations that will be moving (like KCET) will also tell us in advance, the exact times of their moves as well.

KTLA is staying put as well, so 5 of the above are moving and are the ones DTV viewers need to watch (KCBS, KABC, KCAL, KTTV & KCOP).

Hopefully, the remaining station will announce approximate times as well. Currently, we only have what they put down on the analog termination notices:

KSCI: Eve*
KWHY: AM (to be a nightlight)
KCET: E AM*
KPXN: Eve
KMEX: Eve*
KTBN: Eve (?)
KXLA: Eve
KFTR: Eve
KOCE: Eve
KVEA: AM
KAZA: Eve
KDOC: E AM
KLCS: PM
KRCA: Eve*
KVCR: E AM
KBEH: Eve

* denotes a frequency change. I don't know when KTBN plans to move to 33.

KABC had put down, "Evening" but, per KCAL, have moved it up, so the above relative times may not be accurate and I'm sure all are subject to change.

KCBS and KNBC are also scheduled to be nightlights, so they won't really be ending analog yet, along with KWHY.

I went to a Dodger's game on Friday and while they didn't score any runs while I was there, I was able to take a picture of Mt. Wilson from that perspective. I just wish it had been a clear day, but those are hard to come by in the LA area... :D

I was surprised to see how far apart KCBS is vs. most of the Mt. Wilson stations on the left as well as Mt. Harvard on the right. They look closer on the map (all being within 1 mile of the KNBC). Note that KCBS is moving off of its tower when they move to 43 and take over the KCAL facilities.

The KCBS tower is quite hard to see. It's much thinner than most, being guyed, instead of self-supporting.

KTLA is staying put as well, so 5 of the above are moving and are the ones DTV viewers need to watch (KCBS, KABC, KCAL, KTTV & KCOP).

Hopefully, the remaining station will announce approximate times as well. Currently, we only have what they put down on the analog termination notices...



You are right. I overlooked KTLA. It looks like we are going to be very busy scanning and rescanning throughout the day on June 12, if we want to follow the changes as they take place! :D

I agree with narkspud that there is no way it could be a reception problem. If you are getting a good picture, you should also be getting perfect sound. The only possible exception is that there is a very powerful RF transmitter so near you that it is getting directly into the audio circuits of the set, and that is very unlikely.

I agree with you. I was just trying to give all the details so that things like reception could be ruled out. Also, there are no strong local transmitters except the usual CB/ham etc., which is intermittent traffic. My sound problem can be observed any time of day.

There are also at least 3 cellphone towers, about 1/2 mile away. I'm in a residential neighborhood and I don't see any other cell sites except those.

My main purpose in posting in this topic is that I wanted to rule out that it could be the stations themselves. TV stations are often blamed by store personnel and customer support as being the problem, "oh no, it's not our TV set!!!" I don't believe that but I can't rule it out without other opinions.

Is anybody else noticing audio problems from many of the stations?

Unless I overlooked it, you did not mention the audio setup you are using to listen to OTA broadcasts. If you are using the built-in speakers (not recommended for good sound), you may have defective speakers on audio circuit boards.

You really should feed the audio through a digital connection (i.e., Toslink optical cable, digital coax, etc.) to an AVR or controller. The audio in DTV broadcasts is a huge improvement over analog (which has the living daylights compressed out of it) and some stations even broadcast 5.1 surround sound. DTS HD Master Audio it is not, but some of it is really excellent, and I never hear any obvious distortion on any broadcasts.

The Sony 46XBR6 is an excellent set, and I am really perplexed by your problem! In any case keep us posted as to what you find out.

I am currently using the built-in speakers. They sound fine on DVDs (HDMI connection). I also have the audio routed to my stereo and its speakers across the room, and I hear the same garbling distortion through the stereo speakers when I'm listening to off-the-air. The DVDs sound fine both places.

I'm planning on getting a surround speaker setup, but I also hope to move out of state ASAP (it's harder than it sounds), and I decided to buy the surround setup after I've relocated. If not for that I'd buy them now.

So as far as everybody else is concerned all the Los Angeles TV stations have good audio all the time, right?

So as far as everybody else is concerned all the Los Angeles TV stations have good audio all the time, right?

Aside from the rare glitch, which affects both video and audio, I have not seen anything affecting audio only.

Mt. Wilson - Tower Pictures

Fybush has some great tower galleries, including a few of the Mt. Wilson/Mt. Harvard area. Here is a link to one for the Mt. Alta area of Mt. Wilson, which is of interest.

http://www.fybush.com/sites/2005/site-051216.html

I think I finally know why KABC/53 comes in so poorly here. The 53 antenna is much lower on the tower and has to look through a forest of metal to get to me. I can also see why some don't have problems with it as a few directions are probably clear. The 4th picture row (middle of the page) shows this best (look for 53DT).

Here's a GoogleEarth view (looking North) with TVFool transmitter icons.
KABC-DT isn't much worse than other digital stations....
Although there may be metal blockage to East and West, Ch53 antenna should be looking right at you.

Note that after 12June, KABC-DT will take over Ch7 antenna at the top of the mast!!!!

So as far as everybody else is concerned all the Los Angeles TV stations have good audio all the time, right?

I'd say MOST of them have good audio MOST of the time.

You clearly have an equipment problem.

So as far as everybody else is concerned all the Los Angeles TV stations have good audio all the time, right?

Essentially, yes. That is not to say that it all sounds sensational, but you should not hear any obvious distortion. Again, I agree completely with narkspud; you definitely have an equipment problem. Apparently the problem is in the audio section of the receiver circuits, perhaps in the D/A converter or in the low-level audio stages. Judging from your tests, the highter level audio circuits are OK.

You probably could bypass the problem by using the digital output (optical or coax) and doing the D/A conversion in an AVR. But I am sure you will want to get the defective components replaced under the warranty, even if you wind up not using them later.

Thanks guys. Yeah Harrison I was thinking DAC too. I'm an EE.

Just one problem: Both my Sony and my Samsung sound distorted. I can't think of any way to explain both of them being bad. That's why I've been asking if the LA station's audio is okay.

I can't figure out any common failure mode that would explain both. I'll accept that it's not the broadcasters.

Thanks guys. Yeah Harrison I was thinking DAC too. I'm an EE.

Just one problem: Both my Sony and my Samsung sound distorted. I can't think of any way to explain both of them being bad. That's why I've been asking if the LA station's audio is okay.

I can't figure out any common failure mode that would explain both. I'll accept that it's not the broadcasters.


You are right, this is really puzzling! Especially perplexing is the fact that both the Sony and the Samsung have the same problem, and that, it would seem, almost rules out defective components. If this were analog, it would be easy to pass it off as local RF interference, but not so with digital. If the Sony technician comes to work on your set, it will be interesting to see what he has to say about it!

If I was having this problem & the only thing in common is the AC power, i'd plug my tv into my portable AC generator via the surge suppresor of course..

I'm new to this forum and hoping to switch from cable to OTA HDTV. I live in an apartment in Santa Monica, near 20th & Santa Monica Blvd. (90404) I can't put an antenna on the roof, so I need to find an indoor antenna that works well for my area. Any suggestions?

You are allowed any reasonable accomodation to receive OTA tv broadcasting by law. Restricting the use of the required antenna is unreasonable. You should definitely look into your lawful right to receive OTA TV. This applies especially to the tenant in the bottom apartment on the wrong side of the building with no hope of LOS. At a minimum, the legal requirement of reasonable accomodation would require/allow the building owner to install a master antenna for all the tenants instead of a separate one for each. A lot of buildings removed them with the advent of cable but that did not remove their tenant's right to OTA access.

The OTARD laws regarding antenna placement only apply to areas you own or have exclusive use of. The roof of an apartment is a common area, so that doesn't count. Know the facts: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

I'll appreciate some opinions here on my problem. This applies to ANTENNA off the air ONLY! I am receiving my broadcast television from a roof top ANTENNA! Also, this refers to digital stations only. I don't watch analog stations at all. (I don't have satellite and I don't have cable.)

Recently I have noticed bad audio on my new Sony 46XBR6 when viewing off the air. Audio from my DVD via HDMI is fine. I first noticed the problem during commercials (think "hot" audio) but began noticing it during some programs too, particularly during periods of loud audio. Sometimes it's so annoying that I can't even watch TV.

I hear a garbled or gravely sound in low frequency sounds, and sometimes a hissy/scratchy background in high frequency sounds. It follows the modulation peaks, and there is no problem during quiet parts of the program. In some ways it sounds like intermod, which of course is not applicable to digital broadcasts, or it sounds like an analog FM receiver tuned a bit off channel. The high frequency sounds sound sort of like over-deviation on an old FM receiver.

Here is the reason why I posted in this topic: I'm pretty sure I'm ALSO hearing almost the same distorted sound on my new Samsung 32A450 too! If they've both got bad sound then it can't be a broken/bad TV, can it?

My antenna system is an about 5-6 year old Winegard pointed at Mt. Wilson. I'm in a reasonably good coverage area in the middle of the San Fernando Valley. I've replaced all the cabling with RG6/U which I bought a couple years ago and it has been stored inside all that time. I have one good quality VHF-UHF splitter, and I've temporarily replaced it with a barrel with no improvement noticed. The coax run is about 15 feet from antenna to splitter, then 15 feet from splitter to my TV set's RF input.

I'm kind of concerned because I called Sony customer service (didn't mention the other TV) and they're sending a guy out on Tuesday. He just called me to verify the appointment, and said he's going to replace the motherboard! :eek: I'm sure everybody would agree that whenever you mess with a set there is some risk that something else will break, and a risk that maybe the new part might be worse. I need to decide before Tuesday whether or not to let this guy have at my TV.

My friend who is a CATV tech says it could be cellphone interference. He didn't have any suggestion on how to verify that. I've got at least 3 cell sites within 1/2 mile of here. Is cellphone interference possible?

There's one other thing and this is why I'm asking for your advice. Could it be possible that ALL the stations have bad audio? I've asked around some TV stores and they often blame problems on the broadcasters and not the set. (I watch channels 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 28 and 50. No others.)

So what do you folks hear when viewing broadcast off-the-air stations in Los Angeles? Do they have good audio? Do they have crappy audio sometimes? Could all the Los Angeles stations have bad audio?

My borther-in-law also had this problem with his TV (Panasonic), since he had an extended warranty, the repair guy replaced the motherboard no charge, and this fixed his problem.

My borther-in-law also had this problem with his TV (Panasonic), since he had an extended warranty, the repair guy replaced the motherboard no charge, and this fixed his problem.

Thanks for your reply. Sony replaced my motherboard with no charge, and it didn't do a damned thing to fix the problem.

Honestly I am not convinced that my problem is Sony's fault but I don't know what else to do.

(I have some requests for help in the XBR6 topic.)

Thanks for your reply. Sony replaced my motherboard with no charge, and it didn't do a damned thing to fix the problem.

Honestly I am not convinced that my problem is Sony's fault but I don't know what else to do.

(I have some requests for help in the XBR6 topic.)


I am stumped too. Somehow, maybe it does have something to do with your location after all (seemingly contrary to all logic). You said that you are moving; maybe that will solve the problem!

I am stumped too. Somehow, maybe it does have something to do with your location after all (seemingly contrary to all logic). You said that you are moving; maybe that will solve the problem!

I want to move, but it may be 1-2 years in the future. If this set has a problem then 1-2 years in the future is way to late to get any warranty help fixing it.

Despite my comments that I thought my second TV (Samsung) also had an audio problem, I did some careful listening last night. I realized that I had the Samsung's audio set somewhat aggressively. I toned the Samsung down returning most of the audio settings near or at default, and I've realized that any audio problems with the Samsung are not at all like the Sony. Now the only imperfection with the Samsung is that it appears there is some kind of wave shaping going on, sort of like Dolby. What I mean is that when the audio peaks are low it sounds like the highs are being reduced, but when the audio peaks you can hear junk (noise) inside of the wave envelope. I think it's just over aggressive design to not have background noise all the time. Whatever it is maybe it's okay or maybe it's not, but it is not at all the distortion that I'm hearing on the Sony.

I'm sorry if my original description was inaccurate but I'm having great difficulty deciding exactly what the problems are, and even greater problems describing them here in my posts.

The Sony is the only set with a problem. It's audio is sometimes distorted. A new motherboard didn't fix the problem.

I want to move, but it may be 1-2 years in the future. If this set has a problem then 1-2 years in the future is way to late to get any warranty help fixing it.

Despite my comments that I thought my second TV (Samsung) also had an audio problem, I did some careful listening last night. I realized that I had the Samsung's audio set somewhat aggressively. I toned the Samsung down returning most of the audio settings near or at default, and I've realized that any audio problems with the Samsung are not at all like the Sony. Now the only imperfection with the Samsung is that it appears there is some kind of wave shaping going on, sort of like Dolby. What I mean is that when the audio peaks are low it sounds like the highs are being reduced, but when the audio peaks you can hear junk (noise) inside of the wave envelope. I think it's just over aggressive design to not have background noise all the time. Whatever it is maybe it's okay or maybe it's not, but it is not at all the distortion that I'm hearing on the Sony.

I'm sorry if my original description was inaccurate but I'm having great difficulty deciding exactly what the problems are, and even greater problems describing them here in my posts.

The Sony is the only set with a problem. It's audio is sometimes distorted. A new motherboard didn't fix the problem.

You might have a ground loop problem. One way to check that is to run your TV in isolation, i.e. disconnect all other equipments hooked up to your TV. It is usually recommended that all equipment be on the same circuit to avoid ground loops. When I hooked up the cable TV, I would see a hum bar on my screen. I had to use a bucking transformer to eliminate that hum.

I don't have much hooked up to my TV, just output to the stereo and HDMI from the DVD which sits next to the TV and plugged into the same circuit. I still hear the distortion when both are disconnected from the TV.

I measured TV antenna ground terminal to electrical outlet ground and the TV floats, no continuity. I measured TV antenna (cable from roof) shield to electrical outlet ground and it's 8 ohms. The antenna is grounded to it's boom, boom to mast, mast to vent pipe, and I'm sure somewhere the vent pipe and electrical wiring share a common ground.

It was worth checking but that's not it.

I don't have much hooked up to my TV, just output to the stereo and HDMI from the DVD which sits next to the TV and plugged into the same circuit. I still hear the distortion when both are disconnected from the TV.

I measured TV antenna ground terminal to electrical outlet ground and the TV floats, no continuity. I measured TV antenna (cable from roof) shield to electrical outlet ground and it's 8 ohms. The antenna is grounded to it's boom, boom to mast, mast to vent pipe, and I'm sure somewhere the vent pipe and electrical wiring share a common ground.

It was worth checking but that's not it.

Could you try it using just a rabbit ear antenna or UHF antenna not grounded to anything? I had problems with the cable because the installer grounded the cable to the electrical panel. Thanks

That's why I've been asking if the LA station's audio is okay.

Hi there

I've been hearing some random pops/static on 28.1, but that is not likely the issue you're having.

Do you have info on what functions are on the Sony's "mainboard"? If the audio problem is actually in the Sony, then everything from tuner to speakers is suspect. Is the entire audio chain from RF_in to amplified_stereo_to_the_speakers on this mainboard?

Have you tried to breakup the audio processing chain? For instance, is there the same distortion on the audio line outputs (i.e you're bypassing the Sony's audio amplifiers and speakers)? If you could beg/borrow/buy an ATSC tuner (even a CECB would suffice), then you could check if the built-in tuner is suspect. You could also bypass the Sony's digital audio converters if the external tuner outputs analog audio rather using than S/PDIF or HDMI.

Regards

Could you try it using just a rabbit ear antenna or UHF antenna not grounded to anything? I had problems with the cable because the installer grounded the cable to the electrical panel. Thanks


Also, disconnect everything from the set except an antenna (preferably the rabbit-ears if possible) and listen through the built-in speakers to see if the distortion is still audible. If not, start adding components one by one until the distortion returns.

Also, I was wondering if this distortion also occurs on analog broadcasts.

Could you try it using just a rabbit ear antenna or UHF antenna not grounded to anything? I had problems with the cable because the installer grounded the cable to the electrical panel. Thanks

I've been considering trying a rabbit ear.

I'm the installer in this setup. The only ground is at the antenna, implicit in its design (typical VHF-UHF yagi). The center of each dipole is grounded to the boom, which is clamped to the mast, which is clamped to a vent pipe, which is grounded. The rest of the system is not grounded. (RG6 to UHF-VHF splitter, then RG6 to Sony and separate RG6 to Samsung.)

Do you have info on what functions are on the Sony's "mainboard"? If the audio problem is actually in the Sony, then everything from tuner to speakers is suspect. Is the entire audio chain from RF_in to amplified_stereo_to_the_speakers on this mainboard?

Have you tried to breakup the audio processing chain? For instance, is there the same distortion on the audio line outputs (i.e you're bypassing the Sony's audio amplifiers and speakers)? If you could beg/borrow/buy an ATSC tuner (even a CECB would suffice), then you could check if the built-in tuner is suspect. You could also bypass the Sony's digital audio converters if the external tuner outputs analog audio rather using than S/PDIF or HDMI.

The main board is located behind the audio-video inputs/outputs HDMI, antenna connector, etc. IOW the antenna connector and audio outs are on the same board. (It's surprising that the MB is so small, perhaps 8x10") I hear the distorted audio even when listening through my stereo receiver and speakers (which rules out the internal speakers as being the problem).

I should have taken a picture. There's a power supply PCB in the middle, and LCD interface near top center. Another board at far left (viewing from back) but I forgot now what it is. I had thought the TV might have been full of PCBs but in fact the amount of electronics is surprisingly small.

I don't have any place to get an ATSC tuner.

Also, disconnect everything from the set except an antenna (preferably the rabbit-ears if possible) and listen through the built-in speakers to see if the distortion is still audible. If not, start adding components one by one until the distortion returns.

Also, I was wondering if this distortion also occurs on analog broadcasts.

I have disconnected everything except the roof antenna and listened to internal speakers, and I hear distortion.

I never watch analog broadcasts but I'll try and see.

Picking up 34 subchannels. Most LA stations around 10 percent quality. Picking up KTLA, KOCE, ION, KNBC, KXLA, etc From Santa Barbara should get KEYT, MyRTN, Telemundo, Telefutura.

Taking out a splitter increases channels from 6 to 34.

Wondering how better cable, quadshield would affect the results. Using RG-6.

Most LA stations around 10 percent quality.

Quality of what?


Taking out a splitter increases channels from 6 to 34.

Wondering how better cable, quadshield would affect the results. Using RG-6.

Seems like you're getting weak signals, and reception benefits from removing an attenuator. A "better cable" would be a low-loss coax that would minimize the signal attenuation. Quad-shield is not necessarily "better cable" than the RG-6 that you already have installed. Others have written that quad-shield coax is intended for cableTV installations to prevent the (strong) cableTV signal from leaking OUT (and creating EMI).

The "best" RG-6 could arguably be Belden 1694a, which is low-loss and 95% braid coverage. (BTW the 60% + 40% braid coverage of quad-shield does not equal 100% coverage. The uncovered 40% and 60% areas can line up to produce at least 60% but less than 100% effective coverage.)

Regards

Wondering how better cable, quadshield would affect the results. Using RG-6.

RG-6 is the minimum cable. Don't even bother to install it if it isn't at least RG-6.

Quad shield affects primarily local interference radiated into your feed system. Shielding is not a big factor in weak signal areas unless there are local interference problems.

Picking up 34 subchannels. Most LA stations around 10 percent quality. Picking up KTLA, KOCE, ION, KNBC, KXLA, etc From Santa Barbara should get KEYT, MyRTN, Telemundo, Telefutura.

Taking out a splitter increases channels from 6 to 34.

Wondering how better cable, quadshield would affect the results. Using RG-6.

Since removing the splitter improves your signal reception, you are a prime example of where amplification is needed.

Either a pre-amp or a distribution amp would probably do the job. Much depends on what antenna you're using, how long the cable run from the splitter to the antenna is, and a few other variables as to which is preferable. Most likely, either would work.

Just make sure it's low noise with modest gain, not some POS that has high noise and a fabulous gain figure to make it look great to someone who only looks at the gain numbers.

RG11 would reduce the signal attenuation by almost half. However, that's overkill when the above solution is much simpler.

Thanks for all the input. Am using an amp, plus 15. Considered a preamp, don't want power on the roof at this point. The Belden coax is interesting, we will see.

Will be working on doubling up 2 RS bowties, adding a reflector in the back to go for KEYT and MyRTN from Santa Barbara.

RG-6 is the minimum cable. Don't even bother to install it if it isn't at least RG-6.



I agree. RG-59 is sometimes used, but it is way too lossy at UHF frequencies.

My VHF installation is now essentially complete. Originally the plan was for all DTV to be on UHF, and I had only UHF antennas. I installed a Winegard YA-1713 which is designed for channels 7 through 13 only, and has 9 - 10 db gain across that entire band. Therefore it is an ideal choice for my location, where an all-band antenna would probably be inadequate. The cabling was rather involved in my case, since I am using two separate UHF antennas, one for each set, and one of them is using an antenna-mounted UHF preamp.

Performance seems excellent on all channels, i.e., 7, 9, 11 and 13. I am seeing some pronounced herringbone interference on ch. 7 only, and it is there all the time. However the picture is clear and stable, and I doubt if DTV reception will be affected by it.

Hello,

Just found this thread a couple days ago and I think its awesome. Based on advice here, I found an old radio shack indoor antenna I used to use with my 20" CRT and hooked that up to a new 52" LCD. Boy was I shocked! I never thought I'd get any channels at all, but I get about 15 crystal clear (not even including the non-english language channels) - and it looks MUCH better than my cable subscription!! (Now that I think about it, the cable picture is so bad that maybe there is a setting on my cable box I need to play with for better reception?)

My question is, are there any (nonpaying) options to record shows? I could still record to my old VCR but that'd be a waste of the good reception, I think. My cable box has a DVR but I'm thinking about getting rid of my cable now. I could get TIVO but I don't want to pay for the TIVO subscription. Is there a free recording solution - I guess something akin to a VCR where I can just set the time manually but with far greater PQ?

I'd appreciate any thoughts. Thanks.

My question is, are there any (nonpaying) options to record shows?

Yes. I previously used a HTPC (with a USB tuner) to record OTA programs, but now I use the DTVPal DVR. It's working a lot better now with the firmware upgrade.

It's a bit pricey and only can be bought online, but it has been well worth it for me.

They really should sell something like this in retail stores, but the, "one must pay to record HD" thinking seems to be widespread, unfortunately.

VCR's can be adapted, but I haven't owned one since 2002, so I haven't tried it.

Performance seems excellent on all channels, i.e., 7, 9, 11 and 13. I am seeing some pronounced herringbone interference on ch. 7 only, and it is there all the time. However the picture is clear and stable, and I doubt if DTV reception will be affected by it.

Sounds like some FM interference there. I don't think that will be a problem. Here is a link to some tests done by NPR as respects FM interference to channel 6:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520068164

6 is right next to the FM band and I would think has more issues with FM interference than 2nd order harmonics onto upper VHF.

I'm more concerned about impulse noise which is quite common on VHF. I look at the analog signals quite frequently to check noise levels.

When the analog signals go away, only KSFV-6 will be left to check VHF noise levels, but even they might be dropping analog if they follow WNYZ-LP's lead in NYC, when KSFV becomes "The Pulse."

It seems likely that other LP stations may be displaced to 2-5, but I don't think we will see an analog LP station in the 7-13 range. So, we are going to have problems troubleshooting noise issues in upper VHF.

My 4228 will probably receive upper VHF DTV ok, but will likely be less resistant to noise. I will be testing everything I've got when the time comes.

My VHF installation is now essentially complete. Originally the plan was for all DTV to be on UHF, and I had only UHF antennas. I installed a Winegard YA-1713 which is designed for channels 7 through 13 only, and has 9 - 10 db gain across that entire band. Therefore it is an ideal choice for my location, where an all-band antenna would probably be inadequate. The cabling was rather involved in my case, since I am using two separate UHF antennas, one for each set, and one of them is using an antenna-mounted UHF preamp.

Performance seems excellent on all channels, i.e., 7, 9, 11 and 13. I am seeing some pronounced herringbone interference on ch. 7 only, and it is there all the time. However the picture is clear and stable, and I doubt if DTV reception will be affected by it.

I am in the WSFV and I purchased a dta converter and hooked it up to the 30 year old vhf/uhf antenna system that was here when I bought the house 11 years ago. The antenna is about 48 inches long. I had previously aimed it at Mt. Wilson about 35 miles away within a degree or two and got pretty good analog reception except for CBS2 which was the worst. The scan produced 72+ channels. The 20 or so that I care to watch are all rock solid. My signal strengths range from about 72 to 100 on a TR-40. I am amazed by the reception - CBS2 is as good as the rest. The king is dead, long live the king!

Any ideas on what can be used as a reflector for an antenna. Material. Size, etc.

Yes. I previously used a HTPC (with a USB tuner) to record OTA programs, but now I use the DTVPal DVR. It's working a lot better now with the firmware upgrade.

Thanks, but I have no idea what an HTPC or a DTVPal is? :confused: I'll try a search but what are they? Any good links you are aware of for more info?

Thanks, but I have no idea what an HTPC or a DTVPal is? :confused: I'll try a search but what are they? Any good links you are aware of for more info?

HTPC means "Home Theater Personal Computer"

And see here for FAQs and other infomation about the DTVPal DVR:

http://www.dishnetwork.com/dtvpal/dvr_support.shtml

K20IU wants to move to channel 2 (digital) and move their COL to Ontario as well. Here is the attachment to their app.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=739056&formid=346&q_num=5100

I also noticed that KVTU-LP has yet another app for DT channel 3. This one almost looks real (0.3kW from Mt. Wilson).

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1310286&Service=LD&Form_id=346&Facility_id=130176

I imagine we will get to try Low-VHF DTV eventually. I'm not expecting to lock any of these, however. I get quite a analog few LP stations that are very weak right now. None of them would have a chance as digital stations.

Thanks, but I have no idea what an HTPC or a DTVPal is?

The HDTV Recorders sub-forum may be of interest:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=42

Hello,

Just found this thread a couple days ago and I think its awesome. Based on advice here, I found an old radio shack indoor antenna I used to use with my 20" CRT and hooked that up to a new 52" LCD. Boy was I shocked! I never thought I'd get any channels at all, but I get about 15 crystal clear (not even including the non-english language channels) - and it looks MUCH better than my cable subscription!! (Now that I think about it, the cable picture is so bad that maybe there is a setting on my cable box I need to play with for better reception?)

My question is, are there any (nonpaying) options to record shows? I could still record to my old VCR but that'd be a waste of the good reception, I think. My cable box has a DVR but I'm thinking about getting rid of my cable now. I could get TIVO but I don't want to pay for the TIVO subscription. Is there a free recording solution - I guess something akin to a VCR where I can just set the time manually but with far greater PQ?

I'd appreciate any thoughts. Thanks.
1. A PC or laptop can be equipped with an OTA tuner (card, box or USB Stick)
to receive/record local, unencrypted network channels via antenna (or cable coax).
You must have a video card which is HDTV compatible, usually DVI-D
or HDMI, but make sure it supports HDCP (encryption) at 720p and 1080i.
Many people use the Media Center app to watch/record HD OTA, but the
tuner suppliers also provide stand-alone apps...or download free WatchHDTV.
[BTW: Once you do this, you will have built a HTPC.]

2. Digital VHS (D-VHS) VCRs have the advantage of essentially unlimited
record capacity, vice dozen(s) of programs with a DVR.
But (in expectation of Blu-Ray Recorders????), they have been discontinued.
Used D-VCRs can still be found...preferable after they have been refurbished:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/551826-REG/JVC_REFHMDH40000U__Refurbished_HM_DH4000U_S_VHS_D_VHS_HDTV.h tml
JVC, Mitsubishi & Macintosh were primary manufacturers.
Most of them, like the "40K" model above, do NOT include an OTA ATSC tuner,
so they can only be used with a Firewire (IEEE-1394) equipped HDTV
(or cable box) or OTA STB with a Firewire port (e.g. MIT MDR-200):
http://www.digitalconnection.com/products/video/mdr200.asp

Some of the more expensive D-VCR's included an internal ATSC Tuner:
http://www.hdtvsupply.com/jvchmdivhshd1.html
PS: Certain high quality S-VHS tapes turn into D-VHS tapes by punching a hole.

3. OTA HD-DVRs: DTVPal, TiVo, Moxi, Hauppauge, DVICO:
http://www.amazon.com/Moxi-MR-1500T3-Digital-Video-Recorder/dp/B001GQ8MT8
http://www.hauppauge.com/site/products/data_hdpvr.html
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=974885
http://www.digitalconnection.com/products/video/r3310.asp
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1119397
You'll have to assess extra cost of no-fee Tivo, Moxi, etc. vs fee-based alternative.

4. Most of the above can also watch/record ANALOG channels off CABLE
(but some cable systems are removing even the local analog networks)
and some have a QAM tuner to watch/record the unencrypted QAM
local network channels (and perhaps a few more, e.g. radio).
But it is more difficult to record ENCRYPTED CABLE channels
(e.g. above Ch99):

a. D-VCRs have the requisite decryption via their Firewire interface, so you
can watch/record nearly ANY cable channel you subscribe to (including SDV),
except for those marked "Copy Never", e.g. PPV & OnDemand. But some
systems have been reluctant (inept?) to support the federally mandated F-W I/F
so check your local cable thread to see if Firewire works to either PC or DVCR.
Firewire on most cable HD-DVRs doesn't work right...must use 3250HD or 4250HDC.

b. Hauppage HD-PVR reportedly records ALL Cable channels (read thru thread).

c. Specially prepared PCs with INTEGRATED SECURITY and an OTA/Cable Tuner
are capable of recording encrypted cable channels, but since they are currently
incapable of communicating BACK to the cable system, they are not compatible
with the new SDV (Switched Digital Video) HD channels....so avoid.
The next generation of "tru2way" compatible PCs might be available by the end
of this year....or more likely next year....

Hello,

Just found this thread a couple days ago and I think its awesome. Based on advice here, I found an old radio shack indoor antenna I used to use with my 20" CRT and hooked that up to a new 52" LCD. Boy was I shocked! I never thought I'd get any channels at all, but I get about 15 crystal clear (not even including the non-english language channels) - and it looks MUCH better than my cable subscription!! (Now that I think about it, the cable picture is so bad that maybe there is a setting on my cable box I need to play with for better reception?)

My question is, are there any (nonpaying) options to record shows? I could still record to my old VCR but that'd be a waste of the good reception, I think. My cable box has a DVR but I'm thinking about getting rid of my cable now. I could get TIVO but I don't want to pay for the TIVO subscription. Is there a free recording solution - I guess something akin to a VCR where I can just set the time manually but with far greater PQ?

I'd appreciate any thoughts. Thanks.You could always get a DVD recorder with a ATSC tuner. VCR tuners will become obsolete on June 12th when the analog broadcasts are turned off.

A co-worker of mine was absolutely against paying any sort of subscription fee so he used an ATSC DVD recorder for about a year but got tired of watching his recordings in standard definition on his big LCD TV that he spent so much money on so he finally relented and picked up a Tivo HD at Costco. After a few weeks with it and being able to watch all his favorite OTA programs in true High Definition, he (and his equally cheap wife) now feels it worth the ten bucks a month :)

Unfortunately, ALL of the DVD Recorders currently available downconvert HD to
low-rez before they dump it to DVD (and/or internal HDD)....hence the need for higher
capacity Blu-Ray Disk Recorders (available in Japan for several years now...)

The ultimate insult was the decision to output the down-converted low-rez signal
via the built-in HDMI and/or component video interfaces, rather than passing thru HD.

Sounds like some FM interference there. I don't think that will be a problem. Here is a link to some tests done by NPR as respects FM interference to channel 6:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520068164

6 is right next to the FM band and I would think has more issues with FM interference than 2nd order harmonics onto upper VHF.

I'm more concerned about impulse noise which is quite common on VHF. I look at the analog signals quite frequently to check noise levels.



I agree that these steady effects will probably not cause any problems with DTV. I think you are right about the general cause of this herringbone interference, altough in my case it may not be FM broadcast interference, since the interferenmce is on ch 7, not ch 6, and ch 7 is far above the FM band - about an octave. But it could be a second harmonic, produced by front-end overload in both my receivers due to a strong FM signal. Although the Mt. Wilson TV signals are not very strong here, there are some very strong FM signals. Another posssibility might be interference from some other service, just below ch 7 in frequency.

Unfortunately, ALL of the DVD Recorders currently available downconvert HD to
low-rez before they dump it to DVD (and/or internal HDD)....hence the need for higher
capacity Blu-Ray Disk Recorders (available in Japan for several years now...)

The ultimate insult was the decision to output the down-converted low-rez signal
via the built-in HDMI and/or component video interfaces, rather than passing thru HD.

I absolutely agree that what we really need are Blu-ray recorders with ATSC tuners and a large internal HDD.


I can, however, understand the rationale behind the down-rezed DVD recorders. They were undoubtedly concerned about compatibility; they want to make the recorded DVD's fully compatible with any DVD player. But it is very frustrating not to have any convenient alternative.

I absolutely agree that what we really need are Blu-ray recorders with ATSC tuners and a large internal HDD.

Here you go:

http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/Looking_for_a_Blu-ray_Recorder_Better_Move_to_Japan.shtml
http://panasonic.jp/diga/

Ok, these have ISDB-T tuners instead of ATSC, but otherwise would seem to be nice to have, um except for the price. :eek:

Blu-ray Recorders from a number of manufacturers including Sharp and Panasonic are available now or soon will be, starting at a street price of around 80,000 Yen ($800 US) and going up well over 200,000 Yen ($2,000). And, unlike most of the DVD recorders currently available in the US, Japanese Blu-ray Recorders all include built-in hard disk drives (HDDs) so you can edit your programs to remove commercials, do basic editing or clean up beginnings and endings before finalizing your recording onto Blu-ray Disc. Models from Panasonic and Sharp vary in their on-board storage space from 250 GB all the way up to 1 Terabyte.

It looks like Australia has these as well:

http://panasonic.com.au/products/category.cfm?objectID=3513

But it could be a second harmonic, produced by front-end overload in both my receivers due to a strong FM signal.

Most likely this is what it is. Have you run an FM Fool plot to see if you have any nearby FM stations in the 88-90 MHz range?

I don't think it needs to overload the tuner to show the patterns. I just think it needs to be strong enough on your antenna that you are picking up a 2nd order FM harmonic along with TV.

Also if you have an airport nearby their beacons can cause interference also. They are in the 120 Mhz to 135 Mhz range.

Here you go:

http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/Looking_for_a_Blu-ray_Recorder_Better_Move_to_Japan.shtml
http://panasonic.jp/diga/

Ok, these have ISDB-T tuners instead of ATSC, but otherwise would seem to be nice to have, um except for the price. :eek:

It looks like Australia has these as well:

http://panasonic.com.au/products/category.cfm?objectID=3513
Without an ATSC Tuner or a Firewire I/F (with working HDCP), there seems
to be NO WAY to get U.S. HD signals into these imports.....

DV-Link may be possible, but someone would have to volunteer to try it...

You can always pick up a used LG LST-3410A. It's a DVR with NTSC and ATSC tuners. I think QUAM as well, but I'm not sure about that. DVI-D and firewire out, and fabulous picture quality.

The catch? It's preposterously buggy, and it will eventually turn you into a nervous, quivering shell of your former self. Read about the carnage here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=337424

There was a similar, somewhat more reliable device from Sony, but IIRC it was ridiculously expensive and nobody bought one.

Most likely this is what it is. Have you run an FM Fool plot to see if you have any nearby FM stations in the 88-90 MHz range?

I don't think it needs to overload the tuner to show the patterns. I just think it needs to be strong enough on your antenna that you are picking up a 2nd order FM harmonic along with TV.

Yes! Actually I am already quite familiar with this part of the FM band, and listen to those stations often, especially KCRW 89.9, KPPC 89.3 and KKJZ 88.1. KCRW is especially strong here. I don't know where the transmitter is located (The studio is in Santa Monica), but it is very strong here. KPPC used to be a bit weak, but seems to be much stronger now and may have substantially increased their power. The closest station would be KCSN 88.5, but it is weak and distorted because it is blocked by a hill near me. Consequently, I only get the multipath with little or no direct signat. All of these stations would have 2nd harmonics falling at least in part within the ch 7 passband, 175.2500-179.7500 MHz, but KCRW seems to be by far the most likely culprit because it is so strong.

Also if you have an airport nearby their beacons can cause interference also. They are in the 120 Mhz to 135 Mhz range.


I thought of that too, but there are no airports near me. Van Nuys is about 10 miles south of here, and there are one or two other small airports, but none of these is much closer.

There was a similar, somewhat more reliable device from Sony, but IIRC it was ridiculously expensive and nobody bought one.

Except for the hundreds of people posting on this thread. :D
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=537711

Being out here on the fringe in Ventura am particularly interested in those stations below 1000KW powering up after June 12. Any thoughts, ideas, or facts, or knowledge on the issue.

Am particularly interested in KCET, which appears to be way up analog 2450 KW, but is very low digital right now.

For those closer to the towers, means you may have to put on sunglasses if the signal gets too bright, or tone down the picture.

Any ideas on what can be used as a reflector for an antenna. Material. Size, etc.

Chicken screen, wire screen, aluminum foil over cardboard, etc - almost anything metal whether in a grid or solid. Depends on how "sightly" you want it and how durable it must be.

Make it a bit larger than your bow tie elements and mount it behind them. Around 4" is usually the right clearance.

All of these stations would have 2nd harmonics falling at least in part within the ch 7 passband, 175.2500-179.7500 MHz, but KCRW seems to be by far the most likely culprit because it is so strong.

In the event your post-transition signals have problems, a HLSJ can be considered. I have found this to be more effective than FM traps. Many FM traps try and save channel 6 and don't cover the full FM band.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HLSJ

Just cap (terminate) the low side and it's a cheap high-pass filter.

Am particularly interested in KCET, which appears to be way up analog 2450 KW, but is very low digital right now.

KCET should be a bit better on 28, despite lower power than they have now. However, they have applied for 1000kW (with the analog 28 antenna pattern). It may be a while (if ever) for Mexico to approve it, however.

How does analog 28 look now? If you can't see any signs of it, it's probably too much to hope for, even at 1000kW.

Falcon_77 maintains a spread sheet summary of FCC application status:
http://www.rabbitears.info/ss/
Click on "Area" column, click on first entry to DESELECT ALL and then enable "Los Angeles",
"Santa Barbara" and "San Diego".

Additional info can be found by entering "KCET" into FCC TVQ:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html
You should also look at their coverage maps and antenna patterns in your direction.

KCET has to vacate Ch59 and will take over Analog Ch28's position.
Currently, it has approval for 155 kW (average), which is the "standard" 12 dB less than
the current analog power (2450 kW peak) which "should" provide the SAME coverage.

KCET, like many other stations, also put in a "Maximization" request for 1000 kW,
which will have to go through the FCC's approval process, subject to anyone and
everyone claiming it's "too much power" and will cause "too much interference".....
They may get approval to increase power....but 1000 kW may never materialize...

EDIT: Corrected Ch56 to Ch59.

KCET has to vacate Ch56 and will take over Analog Ch28's position.
Currently, it has approval for 155 kW (average), which is the "standard" 12 dB less than
the current analog power (2450 kW peak) which "should" provide the SAME coverage.



KCET is on 59 right now, aren't they?

KCET is on 59 right now, aren't they?

Correct.

I don't think KDOC would appreciate it if they were on 56. ;)

By the way, am I the only one who's noticed that KABC's 7.1 has improved considerably? Looks like they did some bit reallocation.

7.2 doesn't even remotely resemble HD anymore unless they sit on a still shot for several seconds. It would look much better - sharper even - if they'd just transmit SD 16:9.

7.3 is running with a lot fewer bits as well.

By the way, am I the only one who's noticed that KABC's 7.1 has improved considerably? Looks like they did some bit reallocation.

7.2 doesn't even remotely resemble HD anymore unless they sit on a still shot for several seconds. It would look much better - sharper even - if they'd just transmit SD 16:9.

7.3 is running with a lot fewer bits as well.

It looks like they did. I just ran a TSR on it and it reports the following:

7.1: 11.6
7.2: 4.9
7.3: 1.0

I will try and re-check when both have HD programming. KABC should at least throttle the subs during prime-time. Perhaps all the complaints have done some good.

Livewell SD programming looked terrible, but I wouldn't mind seeing it as one large macro-block if it means it won't be taking as much from 7.1.

I like the idea of 16:9 SD, certainly much more than bit starved pseudo-HD.

In the event your post-transition signals have problems, a HLSJ can be considered. I have found this to be more effective than FM traps. Many FM traps try and save channel 6 and don't cover the full FM band.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HLSJ

Just cap (terminate) the low side and it's a cheap high-pass filter.

Thanks! I will certainly keep this in mind if it turns out that it is needed.

Can pick up KCET 28 Ok, plus KABC 7, KOCE on 56, Telemundo 38, going to lose Los Angeles TBN 40 heard it was going to go dark this month, have been making the transition, so haven't been over to analog in a little while.

Digital: Seem to be losing all Mount Wilson 1000KW stations on some days. Best time seems to be at night, or with fog. Get KOCE strong as it is not Mount Wilson, but is Mount San Antonio. So, not affected. Also Telemundo from Santa Barbara is very strong.

Life is good.

It looks like they did. I just ran a TSR on it and it reports the following:

7.1: 11.6
7.2: 4.9
7.3: 1.0

I will try and re-check when both have HD programming. KABC should at least throttle the subs during prime-time. Perhaps all the complaints have done some good.

Livewell SD programming looked terrible, but I wouldn't mind seeing it as one large macro-block if it means it won't be taking as much from 7.1.

I like the idea of 16:9 SD, certainly much more than bit starved pseudo-HD.

I agree! Right now 7.2 looks terrible, not even as good as many 480i channels. Most conspicuous is the gross pixellation that occurs whenever the picture changes or during a dissolve. Also the picture is very soft looking, not even as good as many SD signals. In any case I hope that 7.1 will become acceptable once again on HD material. It certainly looks bad right now, although I did not see any pixellation.

16:9 SD can look surprisingly good if done right, as can be seen on a few of the programs on 28.2 and 28.4.

no 7.1,7.2 or 7.3 in Lake Forest at this time (at least not until June 12 as I am getting a good signal on the VHF). So some of you should consider yourself lucky that you have a signal.

no 7.1,7.2 or 7.3 in Lake Forest at this time (at least not until June 12 as I am getting a good signal on the VHF). So some of you should consider yourself lucky that you have a signal.

Reception conditions seem to have been unusuaslly bad for DTV reception for at least a week now. Here in the Porter Ranch area, I am getting all KABC subchannels fine, but right now I can't get KTTV at all, and KCET often breaks up so frequently that it is unwatchable. Again, the analog reception on all of these is fine.

Reception conditions seem to have been unusuaslly bad for DTV reception for at least a week now. Here in the Porter Ranch area, I am getting all KABC subchannels fine, but right now I can't get KTTV at all, and KCET often breaks up so frequently that it is unwatchable. Again, the analog reception on all of these is fine.

I'm very surprised that you are having difficulty receiving these two stations. Are you able to receive upper analog UHF stations? I live SE of Mt Wilson also at a distance of 30 miles and according to TVFool I have 45 dB less signal strength than you do because of no LOS and 1edge diffraction. Yet, I have no problems receiving those stations.

You might be experiencing preamp overload if you have one or your multipath conditions must be pretty bad. Only a spectrum analyzer can tell you that but because they are expensive, you would have to beg, borrow or steal one.

If anyone else is up right now, KABC is testing on 7. With the YA1713 (plus a pre-amp), I'm getting between 30-32dB, but with some errors. I will try the 4228 in a few minutes to see how that does.

Edit: I'm getting 29-32 with the 4228, which is better than I expected. I have a new 4221HD, which I will try next. The results thus far have been with the 7777 pre-amp as well.

The 4221HD was getting 25-26 (un-amped), however, the tests appear to have ended for the moment as analog is back on 7. The DTV signal is back on 53, but seems weaker than normal and am only getting 14-15 on the 4221HD.

I had hoped to test rabbit ears as well, but wasn't fast enough.

Attached are a couple TSR's of the event. I have also attached an analog picture of 7 (from the YA1713) for reference.

So, ignoring impulse noise issues, it looks like 7 will be ok here. Noise will take a while to test the impact of and couldn't be done tonight.

I'm very surprised that you are having difficulty receiving these two stations. Are you able to receive upper analog UHF stations? I live SE of Mt Wilson also at a distance of 30 miles and according to TVFool I have 45 dB less signal strength than you do because of no LOS and 1edge diffraction. Yet, I have no problems receiving those stations.

You might be experiencing preamp overload if you have one or your multipath conditions must be pretty bad. Only a spectrum analyzer can tell you that but because they are expensive, you would have to beg, borrow or steal one.

I live about the same distance west and very slightly north of Mt. Wilson. The problem is that Mt. Wilson is not quite LOS, so that reception becomes highly dependent on a certain amount of diffraction and refraction. Still I can get around 60 digital channels including subchannels. On almost all of these I get excellent reception, but KTTV and KCET remain my "problem" stations, together with KCOP, which I never can pick up although its analog channel comes in fine.

I do get good analog UHF reception on both low and high channels. I get a good bit of multipath at times, especially since Oat Mountain is right behind me, and that probably has much to do with the problems with KCET, whose signal often fluctuates between about 15% and 75%. KTTV is much more stable, but is weak and comes in reliably only during favorable weather conditions. All three of these stations will be moving to their analog frequencies on June 12, and I am hoping that this will solve the reception problems, especially since I am not experiencing these problems on their analog signals.

Actually, I would doubt that I am getting 45 dB more signal here, in fact, I would expect most of OC to be much more favorably located, since Mt. Wilson is in the LOS there, and 45 dB is an awfully big ratio!

It looks like they did. I just ran a TSR on it and it reports the following:

7.1: 11.6
7.2: 4.9
7.3: 1.0

I will try and re-check when both have HD programming. KABC should at least throttle the subs during prime-time. Perhaps all the complaints have done some good.

Livewell SD programming looked terrible, but I wouldn't mind seeing it as one large macro-block if it means it won't be taking as much from 7.1.

I like the idea of 16:9 SD, certainly much more than bit starved pseudo-HD.

True;

I really don't know why it hasn't dawned on broadcasters to give more consideration to telecasting secondary sub-channels such as Livewell and ThisTV in DVD quality 16:9 720x480i/p or Enhanced definition TV (EDTV). Which though not as good as HD of course is still pretty good and would not need to hog bandwidth from the main sub-channel. Plus you can retain the original aspect ratio of films for widescreen TVs and those with 4:3 sets can simply crop it with their DTV converters if they don't care for the letter-box image.

If anyone else is up right now, KABC is testing on 7. With the YA1713 (plus a pre-amp), I'm getting between 30-32dB, but with some errors. I will try the 4228 in a few minutes to see how that does.

Edit: I'm getting 29-32 with the 4228, which is better than I expected. I have a new 4221HD, which I will try next. The results thus far have been with the 7777 pre-amp as well.

The 4221HD was getting 25-26 (un-amped), however, the tests appear to have ended for the moment as analog is back on 7. The DTV signal is back on 53, but seems weaker than normal and am only getting 14-15 on the 4221HD.

I had hoped to test rabbit ears as well, but wasn't fast enough.

Attached are a couple TSR's of the event. I have also attached an analog picture of 7 (from the YA1713) for reference.

So, ignoring impulse noise issues, it looks like 7 will be ok here. Noise will take a while to test the impact of and couldn't be done tonight.


Yes... my signals were down from high 70's to mid 60's for KABC 7.1

I noticed this during Jeopardy last night.

If anyone else is up right now, KABC is testing on 7. With the YA1713 (plus a pre-amp), I'm getting between 30-32dB, but with some errors. I will try the 4228 in a few minutes to see how that does.

Edit: I'm getting 29-32 with the 4228, which is better than I expected. I have a new 4221HD, which I will try next. The results thus far have been with the 7777 pre-amp as well.

The 4221HD was getting 25-26 (un-amped), however, the tests appear to have ended for the moment as analog is back on 7. The DTV signal is back on 53, but seems weaker than normal and am only getting 14-15 on the 4221HD.

I had hoped to test rabbit ears as well, but wasn't fast enough.

Attached are a couple TSR's of the event. I have also attached an analog picture of 7 (from the YA1713) for reference.

So, ignoring impulse noise issues, it looks like 7 will be ok here. Noise will take a while to test the impact of and couldn't be done tonight.

I wonder how often they will test on 7 before June 12th?

I wonder how often they will test on 7 before June 12th?

I don't know. It would be nice if the stations advertised these times. I just happened to wake up and thought I would check and got lucky.

In other news, KBEH's move to Mt. Wilson has been granted. Here is the new proposed contour:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=649339&formid=301&q_num=5430

In my new home the only channel I do not get that I got before is KABC. I would really like to see if I will get it digitally when it moves to channel 7. Would I set my alarm to 3 AM to check? Not likely.

Rick R

OK, thanks. A new one to watch for OTA. I get it by DirecTV already, even though I don't really care for the programming

I don't know. It would be nice if the stations advertised these times. I just happened to wake up and thought I would check and got lucky.

In other news, KBEH's move to Mt. Wilson has been granted. Here is the new proposed contour:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=649339&formid=301&q_num=5430

Based on these proposed field strength coverage patterns I take it KBEH-DT(24) will commence broadcasting from Mt. Wilson on or some time after KVCR-24 San Bernardino's analog signal is shut down on June 12?

...I don't know. It would be nice if the stations advertised these times. I just happened to wake up and thought I would check and got lucky.



I agree, particularly since most ATSC receivers require a complete rescan to add stations.

Part of Equity Medial Holdings was Retrojams Old Rock and Roll music with infomercials. Has been dark since December 2008. What will happen to it? Some on the stations may go to Daystar.

Believe the value for these stations is to move them to larger markets, then go digital. Or, to become part of an existing network. The financial has to work. So, a move to Mount Wilson from Ventura seems to be the trend. i.e. KBEH, etc.

So, the question is what will happen to this low power station. You can search KIMG-LP Ventura, Equity Media Holdings, bankruptcy court in Little Rock.

Any thoughts?