Tom,

Don't forget KUSI. Channel 19, I think.

Jeffcub, thanks for the advice and offer of assistance. I'm about a month away from getting all this stuff. I'll let you know how it works out. I'm just hoping that the hills near my house don't get in the way.

I'm shoreashellglad to have found you guys and this thread.

I just bought my first HD capable set (plasma) and am considering the OTA HD possibilities instead of waiting (seemingly forever) for Cox HDTV.

I have no specific questions at this point, and I only skimmed the last 13 pages of this thread and will re-read it more specifically as I get deeper into the antenna search if that is the route I choose.

But as a local So. OC guy (Dana Point near Laguna Niguel (PCH/Crown Valley and Niguel/Camino Del Avion area)), I wanted to thank you guys for your posts and responses on this thread, the intel is incredibly valuable!

EDJ

Hey guys,

Hey guys,

Sorry about that first post.

Anyway after reading through this thread I thought you guys may be able to help me. Do any of you have any idea what the OTA reception is like in WestChester CA. I am about 5 blocks from Loyola, pretty close to the bluff overlooking Marina Del Rey.

I have a Pioneer Elite RPTV and am anxious to see what it can do, especially since I have had it for a couple years with no HD.

Just wondering what your guys thoughts are on HDTV in the area, currently I have DirecTV.

Thanks for any help.

ya know Gunfighter369, I don't get KUSI, 19 :( , I may have to tune the antenna a bit. Is that a Local San Diego Channel?

Also, did you get the FOX channel working for you yet??

~Tom

The WB is 19 isn't it? 19.1 on my Mits receiver. I did a check on 100000 watts site and it shows it on 18. I've tried,but can't seem to get a sig.

Robert

Rob,

You are correct. The WB is 19. KUSI is 51(18-0).

Tom,

It's a San Diego Local. No HD content, BUT, another Digital channel that Dish doesn't offer. No luck w/ XETV yet. I tried the re-scan. It doesn't pick up the channel. When I manually program the channel in, all the info is there, I just get 0% signal strength and a black screen. I have not had the opportunity to tweak the antenna yet. I think Sun is gonna' be my first chance. We'll see what happens then!

Interesting, for me San Diego's WB is 69.1 (Ch. 19) on my Sony HD200, so I would have to enter 69.1 to get there.

As for KUSI, I do not get it, it's listed as 51.1 (Ch. 18) but it's blank, I get KUSI 51 on my DirecTV but not OTA.

Sound like the same thing you have with Fox.

Robhair, do you get KUSI 51.1 (Ch. 18) ??

~Tom

Tom,

One other one for ya'...... do you get XUPN, channel 49? It's broadcasting out of Mexico, same place as XETV. I didn't pick it up during an auto-scan, so I think it needs to be tweaked like Fox for me.

XUPN is an weak UHF analog station not digital on channel 49. But its further east than XETV. XUPN is from Tecate while XETV is from Tijuana.

Tom, Tried KUSI,but no luck.

Robert

Originally posted by Gunfighter369
Tom,

One other one for ya'...... do you get XUPN, channel 49? It's broadcasting out of Mexico, same place as XETV. I didn't pick it up during an auto-scan, so I think it needs to be tweaked like Fox for me.

Nope, no XUPN at this time over here...XETV signal is great though!

~Tom

Hey all, I started another thread after my SAT and OTA installs regarding Grounding of the SAT and OTA antenna, at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=256848 .

I would be curious to hear what other So. Cal people are doing about this..if anything?

Thanks all!
~Tom

Originally posted by CampMaster
As for KUSI, I do not get it, it's listed as 51.1 (Ch. 18) but it's blank, I get KUSI 51 on my DirecTV but not OTA.


Are you sure that you get San Diego KUSI with DirecTV local channels? I live in San Diego and DirecTV doesn't show that station available in San Diego. I checked an old Pasadena ZIP code and it doesn't show as available there either.

Tom,

Got home today.... haven't touched anything. Fox shows up w/ 88% signal strength. Didn't touch nothing and now it's 30% better than what I initially had. Oh well... it works now. As for the other thread, neither my antenna or Dish set-up is grounded, yet. Still contemplating on best route to do it.

ThumperBoy,

You are correct AGAIN. I gotta' start checing my info better! And of course, no joy w/ XUPN.

~Alan

Hey TomF and GF,
I checked my KUSI and I do get 51, but it was OTA not DirecTV (Sorry TomF, my bad), analog. But now I am getting KUSI 51.1 Digital OTA as-well.

Looks like I have been getting XUPN (49-analog OTA) all along, I just blocked out all the analog channels on my STB, so I did not notice this one was there.

Glad your getting FOX again GF!

This is just too much fun....I just setup my ReplayTV 5080 and have been too consumed by all this stuff. My wife sure has patience with me...other than grounding everything..I think I am done.................for now!

~Tom

Hi, folks. Although I live in West LA, I have been following this thread with interest because I do not get very good OTA reception from the Mt. Wilson stations (apparently due to the fact that we're sort of in a valley and behind the tall buildings in Century City).

I have a Hughes E-86 and am currently using a Radio Shack VU-120XR outdoor antenna (I tried the cheaper 15-2160 first, but didn't get enough of a signal), with the coax from the antenna running to an outside diplexer by the satellite dish, and then into the house through a single coax line, where it then gets split by another diplexer to run into the antenna input on the HDTV D* receiver. The signal strength is passable, but not great: can't get the loca Fox at all, and only KCBS tops out at 93-100% SS; the rest vary from 40's and 50's, with frequent drop-outs, to 60's and 70's, which appear to hold the signal, but obviously with not much to spare.

So I am thinking of adding a pre-amp, and I have seen the recommendation to get the Radio Shack 15-1171. Went down there today to pick it up, and I just want to make sure it's the same one folks are recommending, because it is labelled, "Bi-Directional Cable Amplifier" and carries a $49.99 price. The 15-1170 (which I thought I read on this thread was more expensive but less effective) is called an "In-line Signal Amplifier" and sells for $29.99. Is it indeed the 15-1171 that I want to try?

Also, I want to make sure that I am locating it properly in my set-up. Since I have no ready electrical outlet connection on the roof, I was planning on having the pre-amp inserted between the inside diplexer and the receiver, just as the final length of coax is about to be connected to the receiver. My understanding is that I don't want to connect the pre-amp to the single coax in between the two diplexers, because that will interfere with the satellite signals. But I think I also read that it's best to hook the pre-amp up as close to the antenna as possible, which in my case, frankly, seems impossible, since I don't know how I would get the electricity to run from inside the house up to the roof at that point. The 1170, if I read the instructions correctly, seems to solve this problem by having two separate pieces, one that gets inserted near the antenna and the other that connects to the power nearer to the receiver inside the house.

By the way, I've got about 30 feet of coax run from the antenna to the outside diplexer, and another 20 feet or so from the outside diplexer into the house and to the receiver.

Any confirmation/suggestions on which pre-amp to use and how to set it up in this system? Thanks.

The best preamps (e.g. Chanel Master 7775) do not need an electrical outlet at the antenna; the power is supplied via the same coax that brings the signal down from the antenna.

The radio shack preamps generally have higher noise than Channel Master. Also, I have seen reports that some RS preamps are unstable.

You may also be suffering frpm multipath; what is reception like for analog UHF channels? Ghosts indicate a multipath problem; snow indicates inadequate signal strength.

Hey Robert or GF,
had a strange problem today, came home and my STB was saying "Reconfiguring Network" and it was like that all day. I had to unplug the unit to reset it and it looks like my San Diego KPBS stations have changed channels. They used to be 15 (analog), 15.1 (HD) and 15.2 (DT), now they are 15 (analog), 30.1 (HD) and 30.2 (DT).

Did your channels change for that station? I wonder if something happened to my STB?


Let me know what you find!


~Tom

Tom,
I was having weird problems today also. I'll try to see if it was the PBS station. Yes they seemed to have changed to 30.1-30.2. I was having a hard time today, I must have spent an hour trying to figure out what the heck was going on. I was getting a signal at 15.1, but it wouldn't stay constant and was dropping out . Thanks for the post, I was having a time of it today.

Robert

Wow, thanks for the post Robert. I probably spent 2 hours resetting, unhooking the antenna, rescanning, changing zip codes etc...man I thought I was going crazy.

On 15.1 and 15.2 I have a signal, but no picture..they are on 30.1 and 30.2...very strange.....I wonder what's going on?

It sure threw my STB for a loop...wonder if it will change back?
My DirecTV channel guide is now off, it shows the guide info for 15.1 and 15.2, not 30.1 and 30.1...kinds sucks...home one or the other gets corrected!

I will let you know if I see a change, please also do the same!

~Tom

The actual UHF channel used for KPBS-HD has always been UHF channel 30. Looks to me like their encoder data got reset yesterday, perhaps due to equipment overhaul. They need to re-entre the 15-1 and 15-2 PSIP info.

Originally posted by ThumperBoy
The actual UHF channel used for KPBS-HD has always been UHF channel 30. Looks to me like their encoder data got reset yesterday, perhaps due to equipment overhaul. They need to re-entre the 15-1 and 15-2 PSIP info.

That was my thought since I knew the UHF was Channel 30, but I did not know if this was a permanent change or PSIP issue. Glad to see it was not just me...but my STB did not seem to adjust to the change very well...Sony HD200.

~Tom

Tom,

Same for me..... I was actually playing with the STB trying to get XUPN and I lost the PBS channels. I quit around 6:30 or 7 and still didn't have them back at the time. Darn Fox is acting up again too. It doesn't want to stay constant. I'm thinking the wind is actually blowing my antenna around a bit, Fox improves while NBC goes bad and vice versa. Anyway.... are the PBS channels back to normal?

~Alan

fredwooch --

Yes, the 1171 is the right number but with this unit you will need to insert it before the first diplexer. That may be hard to do because of the power problem but it won't work if it is on the other end (between the second diplexer and the receiver...) because at that point it is also amplifying all the noise and multipath reflections.

For any amp to be effective, especially with digital signals, its input needs to be as close as possible to the antenna. In the case of the 1171, I've found it loses its effectiveness if the distance is greater than about 20-25 feet. "Preamps" solve this problem by separating the amplifier section from the power supply into a two-piece system. You mount the amp portion up on the antenna mast and the PS can be farther down the coax line where power is available. The PS section sends power back up the coax to the amp and passes the amplified signal through to the receiver.

The CM 7775 is the only preamp I've found with a low enough noise factor to work well with digital signals. The only problem is that it is not available locally. All of their "lessor" models, that you see at Fry's, Lowes, etc., are too noisy. Same with everything else available at Radio Shack except the 1171, which of course, is not a two-piece unit.

Unfortunately, I haven't found a set of diplexers that will pass the power back up the line to the amp portion of a 7775 so I don't think it will work for your present setup. You either need to run a separate coax line or run a low-voltage power line outside so you can use your 1171.

-- Gary

Gary -

Thanks for the reply. If I understand you correctly, I've got two problems, then. First, the two-piece preamp that Radio Shack sells (the 15-1710) is too noisy to help in any event and the only two-piecer that would be effective, the CM 7775, is not available locally. Second, even if I could get the 7775, the diplexer will block the power from getting to the antenna-located pre-amp anyway. What a bummer.

I may try experimenting with different combinations before taking the more drastic route of sending yet a fourth cable into our bedroom. (We've already got two coming in from the satellite for our DirecTIVO, and a third for the High Def from the satellite. My wife is going to absolutely kill me if I try to send another one in through the wall.)

Is there any possibility that I can harm my system by hooking the amps or preamps up between the inside diplexer and the receiver, just to see if perhaps the extra signal boost, even with the added noise, can put me over the top on some of the now-marginal stations?

Fred

I use the silver sensor indoor antenna and have been able to get all Los Angeles stations except for PBS, even though i have signal hill obstructing a clear path to mount wilson. The antenna sits right on top of my panasonic .

Called KPBS in San Diego just now, it was their PSIP encoder that had to be rebooted, so the channels should be remapped back to 15.1 and 15.2 now!

I can't check it from work, but they were aware of the problem!!!

FYI!

~Tom

Thanks for the gouge Tom. I'll try a re-scan when I get home!

~Alan

I confirmed KPBS encoder is back with 15.1 and 15.2 and correct time too.

Fellas,

A simple coax question,if you don't mind. I have a 75 ft. run from ant. to family room. At the moment I'm using RG59. If I switch out to RG6 or better will I see a differance in performance?. Thanks

Robert

I switched a 50 ft run of RG-59 for a run of RG-6 and was able to pick
up three more channels that I didn't before. This is without a pre-amp.
The RG-6 has lower resistance and won't degrade the signal as much
over a longer run.

Bruce

75ft of RG6 has about the same loss as 50ft of RG59, so you would cut the cable loss 1-2db.

bweimer-thumperboy,

I switched out the rG-59 with the RG-6 yesterday. I got a channel on my San Diego side that I wasn't getting before KUSI 51.1. That signal is still to weak to watch. I also get a much better signal from NBC. On the L.A. side I am getting a much stronger signal from KCAL. Thanks for the input.

Robert

Sounds like you could benefit from a good low-noise-figure preamp there robhair, since the preamp will amplify prior to the loss over the cable.

I got this from Cox OC last week. It's probably old news.

Thank you for your inquiry. Cox is committed to providing the best
customer service possible.

We were informed back on April 23rd that our HDTV service will be
rolling out by the end of June if not before.

The article below ran in the Orange County Register’s Briefing section
back on April 23rd (on Business page 2).

"Cox cable TV will offer high definition

Cox Communications, the cable-TV company that serves most of south
county, plans to introduce new channels using the new high-definition
broadcasting standard by the end of June. Customers will be able to
receive high-definition versions of KNBC, HBO, Showtime, ESPN and The
Discovery Channel. KNBC, HBO and Showtime will be provided at no extra
charge above what cable customers currently pay (you must be a paid
subscriber of HBO and Showtime to receive their high-definition
channels). ESPN HD and Discovery HD Theater will be packaged together
for $9.99 a month.

To receive the service, subscribers will need a high-definition
compatible television and a high-definition decoder set-top box. They
can rent the decoder box for $9.95 a month, which is $6.70 more a month
than the company charges for a regular digital cable box."

To work with Cox’s first generation HDTV offering, your HDTV set or
monitor must support 1080i HD signals. Most new HDTV sets support the
1080i format. Refer to your owner’s manual to determine if your HDTV
supports 1080i.""


We hope that we have been able to provide you with the information you
requested. If we have not, or if we can be of any additional service
to you, please do not hesitate to contact us again.

Thumperboy---


I'm already using CM7775,without it I only receive one channel in each direction.


Robert

Originally posted by robhair
bweimer-thumperboy,

I switched out the rG-59 with the RG-6 yesterday. I got a channel on my San Diego side that I wasn't getting before KUSI 51.1. That signal is still to weak to watch. I also get a much better signal from NBC. On the L.A. side I am getting a much stronger signal from KCAL. Thanks for the input.

Robert

Good to hear Rob! I am also using the CM7775, works well and I also get KUSI 51.1.

I do notice on NBC (San Diego- and CBS less often), I sometimes have receptions (Signal Strength) issues, I could be watching for an hour with 77% SS, then it drops to zero for a short while, it may not stay there long and does not typically bounce back and forth but will come back to 77% and I can continue to watch TV. Could this be a multi-path problem? or is it just part of life with OTA and weather conditions etc...?

~Tom

KNSD-DT (San Diego's NBC) is transmitting at a very weak power level - much,much less power than the other stations. So I would expect it would drop out and vary quite a bit with atmospheric conditions beyond about 40miles from the transmitter unless you are at a very high altitude.

I do remember reading that NBC signal was on the weak side, and I think that is what I am seeing...

Thanks for the response!

~Tom

What you're probably seeing, Tom, is aircraft interference. As aircraft move up and down the coast, signals bouncing off their fuselages arrive in and out of phase with signals arriving directly or refracted through dense air layers. They'll add, then subtract, and so on as they move. Depending on the moisture and temperature clines present at any moment, the effect can be negligible or significant. The effect of reflections off of the ocean also vary over time because of the angle of refraction in upper layers--the "duct" effect.

This is where power helps. KFMB-DT (CBS) runs at 703kW ERP while KNSD-DT (NBC) is at 18kW, so you would more likely see the effect on KNSD. With everyone due to raise power next year, the fading should decrease at that time.

One solution would be diversity reception; i.e., a circuit would pick the best signal for the moment from two widely separated antennas. We did this for 35 years to pick up CBS microwaved over that famous long path from Mt. Wilson to Mt. Soledad. It worked...most of the time.

Of course, no maker that I know of makes a diversity HD receiver.

So KNSD-DT(NBC) is only broadcasting at 2.5% of the power of KFMB-DT(CBS) - thats a huge difference!

Thank you for your reply Gary, it was very informational!
It is amazing to see the difference in power output, no wonder I have very little issue with CBS' signal and they have all the good shows in HD anyway (am I kissing to much bootie now?) !

I did not really think it was a multi-path issue, but I live in a hilly area in South Orange County, but up on a hill top of about 1400' and was not sure if the signal was reflecting or giving my multi-path issues anyway.

PBS-DT and PBS-HD have been great, never an issue (except they have been having PSIP issue over the last week or so)

CBS, ABC and FOX are good about 95% of the time.

NBC seems like it may be good 70-80% of the time (but never at the right time!), seems like usually in the later part of the night.

All of these are San Diego channels, I get no LA channels due to a large hill in that direction.

Thanks again for your input Gary!

~Tom

Finally! I now have KABC from mt. Wilson. After 2 months of trying to get KABC i decided to try out my friends Silver Senor indoor antenna and what do you know, channel 7 pops right up. It drops out once in awhile but thats a lot more progress than what i was getting before. It may have to do with now my cable run is only about 20ft as opposed to 50 feet from my roof. But i still figured my outdoor antenna would be much better hence never thinking of trying out the silver sensor.
So now I have a Winegard 4400 and Channel Master 4228 bowtie antennas that i dont need. If anyone wants to buy them off me I would be willing to sell them at $25 each. email me at dlai@usc.edu and I live in arcadia.
~Denny

Aliso Viejo update.

Over last weekend I received and installed both a new HDTV card for my HTPC (a MyHD MDP-120 which replaced a MyHD MDP-100) and my preamp (a Channel Master CM-7775 replacing an RS 1171).

I replaced the preamp first. Signals improved by up to 15%.
Replacing the HTPC card improved signals by a further 15-20%.

Finally I'm able to watch ABC7 with no dropouts. Although I'm on the wrong side of the hill I'm able to receive all Mt. Wilson stations without dropouts, and I'm even getting (very low strength and unwatchable) signals from ch.19 and ch.25 from San Diego!

So - although my cable run is less than 40 feet I think if people are having signal-strength issues they should try the CM preamp.

The tuner on the MDP-120 is supposed to be 30-35% more sensitive than its predecessor. Although I've not seen quite this much gain it is definitely better at picking up weak signals, and is reported to handle multipath issues better. I also find that the card locks to the station more quickly and dropouts are rare even on the weakest channels.

I'm happy!! :D

Andy.

What type of antenna were you using AndyS?

ThumperBoy,

I started out with a Silver Sensor, but now I have dual RS 15-2160's horizontally stacked. Amazing value for money!!

Andy.

I have two Samsung SIR-T151 HDTV tuners, one that is unable to lock in on KOCE and KLCS. I get no picture or sound and a message of "Not in Service" when I try to manually add these channels.

I can receive these channels that I did a channel scan for earlier this month with the other tuner but only after about a 10 second delay when they were mapped to:

50-1 KOCE-DT
58-1 KLCS-DT

I have a non-amplified Zenith Silver Sensor antenna in my attic which delivers a strong signal for all LA stations, including these two, in my Lake Mission Viejo neighborhood. What could be wrong?

Hi Gang:

Just curious about your thoughts regarding the issue I'm having with KABC.

I live in an area 35 miles north of Los Angeles, about 1/2 mile from the 5 freeway. I have a CM 4228 antenna with a pre-amp. This is used exclusively for DTV OTA reception, using a Hughes E86 receiver. I consistently get 100 signal strength readings (E86 receiver readings) on almost every station 24x7. The only two exceptions are KTTV-FOX and KABC. I can somewhat understand not getting in KTTV (I believe it's broadcasting a weaker signal, but not sure), but KABC is a mystery. What's worse, is that it seems to depend on the day. Some days I get solid 100 signal, other days it languishes in the 45-55 range - occasionally better in the mornings and evenings. I can't figure out a pattern.

I'm curious about two things -

1. Is there something I can do to improve my reception of these two stations, knowing that every other station is excellent (I don't want to make those worse), and

2. What is causing such hit-or-miss results with KABC?

I'm very much looking forward to watching the KABC NHL finals in HD on Saturday, so a quick response is most appreciated :)

Thanks!

- Tony

KABC is broadcasting with low power.

Have you tried it without a preamp Tony?
KABC is the lowest of the signals I get, I live near Riverside.

I'll try that tonight, although I'd be surprised if it helped, considering the signal is weak with the preamp, but I'm always willing to try :)

I haven't looked at this thread in quite a while. Since I haven't received any "Reply to post" e-mails from AVS in months, I assumed the thread was inactive. WRONG! Was I surprised last night when I found the thread had doubled in size!

After catching up, it seems more evident than ever that local anomolies at our respective receiving locations can override other factors, including choice of equipment. I'm in Lake Forest, and Mount Wilson line-of-sight is partially blocked by a ridgeline. While I read again and again in this thread that KABC and KNBC are chronic problems in south Orange County, those are 2 of my best channels. I always have problems with receiving KCBS and KCET, especially KCBS, trouble-free for most posters here! Actually my reception for most L.A. stations is quite good, but there's still room for improvement. Simply stated, I get moderate to good performance for most stations, with zero performance for two important stations.

I'm interested in three areas of potential improvement: (a) a possible antenna change, (b) changes to antenna location and mounting to improve reception and/or reduce susceptibility to wind damage, and (c) a higher performance pre-amp to optimize performance from my system. In any case, I'll be changing the pre-amp and will be able to corroborate some of Gary's results.

I presently have a roof-mounted DAT-75 antenna. Thankfully I haven't experienced the homeowners association problems that Rob had. I read with interest that Rob switched to a CM 4228, and I have considered this (as well as a dual RS 15-2160 array) as a way to head off the H.O.A. nuisance factor. It's not clear that a roof-mounted CM 4228 would be less visible than the DAT-75. Kinda like replacing a conspicuous "cannon" with an equally conspicuous billboard! At least the 4228 isn't garishly colored with orange plastic fittings! Gary's dual 15-2160 array is probably the most inconspicuous setup...

I presently use a mast-mounted RS 15-1109 preamp, bought in the early days of my experiments, which hasn't proven to be a good choice in Gary's comparison tests. Nevertheless, I don't have a standard for comparison in my own system. I recently ordered a CM7775 to replace it, and expect delivery soon. I hope it improves signal levels across the board. I'll report results. Finally, I use a Dish model 6000 receiver, which is clearly NOT a state-of-the-art receiver...

An important upgrade for this summer - I need to stabilize my antenna roof mount against potential wind damage. The el Nino winds sometimes gust here over 50 mph. My present antenna mount will not withstand high winds. After reading about Gary's CM4228 knock-down, I'm inclined to consider my next steps in this order...

1. Stay with my DAT-75 and work on another mounting scheme. I might consider a location less visible from the street, and add an insulated front support for the antenna boom. I will also try other locations while seeking a new roof location that gives better reception for KCET and KCBS. I will also replace my pre-amp with the CM 7775 and hope for success on the 2 problem stations.

2. If no joy with (1), I will try a horizontal array of two Radio Shack 15-2160 yagis. I already own one 15-2160, so the incremental cost to experiment is not much. I suspect this is the best compromise between a "stealth" installation and my need for high gain reception.

3. If (2) does not give good results, I will consider a Channel Master 4228.

I'm glad to see that this discussion is still active. I'll be happy to contribute again...

Gary

I live in Long Beach and have a direct line of sight toward Mt. Wilson and KABC 7.1 has always been the worse. Some days its un watchable.
And all of a sudden tonight there is a 7.2 channel. Wonder if something is in the works?

Tom Bowman,Long Beach

Gary,

My twin 2160s are actually below the ridgeline of my house, nestled behind the chimney (I'll try and post pics soon) where they should hopefully be protected from the winds. You're welcome to come over and check out the installation if you think that it would be beneficial for you.

Andy.

Tom, my guess is channel 7.2 will be the KABC Hispanic SAP broadcast, same video as 7.1. That seems to be the pattern for other locals offering SAP. Your KABC reception is another example that we all get widely varying results. We benefit from the general experinces of the other posters, but the only thing that seems certain is that someone else's setup won't give the same results at our own locations (unless they happen to be neighbors). While you have direct line of sight, I don't. Early in my tests, a friend used a mapping program to plot ground-level elevations between my house and Mt. Wilson. Just 0.3 miles from my house, we have a ridgeline 50 feet higher than our elevation, plus any effects due to buildings and trees. But I have never had problems with KABC-DT. I also noticed recently that the new KOCE-DT is the strongest signal of all from my location.

Andy, thanks for the offer. For my house mounting between chimney and ridgeline won't help. The chimney is on the side opposite Mt. Wilson, so I either mount high on the chimney itself (to see over the ridgeline) or mount my antenna on the other side of the ridgeline for direct aiming from a mount affixed to the eave.

Horizontal 15-2160 array...
I wonder if horizontal antenna spacing has much effect. Gary's lashup (photos on an early page) showed adjustability. Perhaps wide antenna spacing can mitigate localized effects and improve reception. An obvious extension would use two independent mounts, widely spaced. This might be the least obtrusive. This could also provide both horizontal and vertical offset, if there's advantage to that...

Gary

Gary,

The proper distance between the antennas in a horizontal (or vertical for that matter) is directly related to the frequency for which you need the most gain. I'll need to check on the exact spacing but both Gary and I set our 2160s for max. gain for ABC/53 (which is also around the middle of the frequency range).

If you dig around on the net you can find distance calculators for co-phased arrays.

Andy.

Andy is right. I don't remeber the exact calculation but it is some fraction of the wavelength for the frequency of interest. I picked KABC/53 because of two reasons. First, as Andy says, it is roughly in the middle of the band. Second, KABC was the weakest for me so I wanted to optimise the setup for that channel.

I played around with various distances and it really isn't that critical. There was a range of about 3-4 inches so I split the distance (42 " I think...). Vertical "tilt" is not nearly as critical. I basically got the same readings from 0 to about +10 degrees from horizontal so it is set at about 5 degrees.

The combined array VERY directional (1-2 degrees will make a difference...) but it works well. I haven't had a dropout on any channel since this setup went up in January.

-- Gary

I will add that I found the elevation (vertical 'tilt') to be important. For me this is probably because I'm on the wrong side of the hill and need to point over the top, but it's certainly worth experimenting with elevation once you've got the direction as optimal as possible.

Interestingly, in the UK (where I'm from originally) most houses use UHF OTA antennas (there is a little cable there but mainly OTA), and no-one elevates their antennas - they are all flat. Not very useful information but there you go! ;)

Andy.

The best reference I have found for stacking distances is here:

http://www.grantronics.com.au/docs/StkYagis.pdf

Using the formula given in this article, it turns out that optimum stacking distance does not very too much with frequency.

You'll find a lot of real world test data for horizontal & vertical stacked antennas, including tilt experiments, here (particularly towards the end of the thread):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27746

My own experience is that horizontal stacking (two Blake JBX21WB yagis) was the magic bullet at my topographically challenged location (no line of sight and tremendous ghosting/multipath when using just one antenna).

To get a consistent picture from all of the available digital broadcasts, I needed to get a direct line of sight to Mt. Wilson. I too was in a ravine (in the Sherman Oaks hills) with a ridge line obstructing my LOS to Mt. Wilson. I tried a chimney mount with a 15' mast. Results were best when pointing away from Mt. Wilson!!! I guess the signal was passing over the ridge and my house and bouncing back at me from the opposite ridge!?! The results were inconsistent. Sometimes I would get 2-1 and 7-1, but when the weather changed I would get 4-1, 5-1 and 11-1. 13 (which is 66 for me) was random -- sometime I would get it, sometimes not. All my rooftop attempts with signal amps and different ANT types were frustratingly unsuccessful. So, I hiked up the ridge blocking my line of sight (which was unoccupied) and found a beautiful spot with a totally unobstructed view across the Valley. It was a difficult hike, because I was carrying a shovel, a 90 pound bag of quickcrete, 2 gallons of water, a mast, a radio shack antenna, and a 500' spool of R6 cable -- it took a few trips. Anyway, after busting my nut carrying that stuff and running the wire through the underbrush (with the permission of two neighbors) I got the cable back to my property. The total cable run is just over 600' with a 13 db signal amplifier. Now, I get all the channels consistently without dropouts. [[Just in time to see the NBA finals without the Lakers *#%@!]] I know not everyone can do this, but if HDTV is important to you, do whatever you can to get an uninterrupted LOS to those transmitters. Everything else seems to leave you at the mercy of solar sun spots and atmospheric conditions in the Gobi desert.

Tommylotto-

Ok-Wow!! You Win!- I want you on my team! and I thought I was crazy about HDTV :)...........Last night I was getting dropouts during the SC finals. I thought about moving the Ant. five feet higher and all the trouble that entails. You are my inspiration. It's moving today!

Robert

All I can say is this thread is sweet!

I just bought the RS 2160 Antenna, and the 1171 amp. I guess I should back track a little...

I live in South OC, Mission Viejo. Cross streets would be Muirlands and Alicia. Just bought the MyHD 100 last night and watched the game on my 51 inch sony - very nice. But the problem was the antenna, I stopped on a whim and picked up the RS 15-1868 indoor antenna thinking it would be fine. I had to take that thing to the highest point on my roof (single story) to get about a 40% signal level. And on top of that it took like 10 minutes to get it pointed in the right direction.

Anyway, back to today. I picked up some nice RG-6 cable and the other parts mentioned above. I now armed with my map from antennaweb.org and ready to go. Going to try out the roof first.

I will follow up later, wish me luck,
Rob :(

Good luck Rob - let us know how you get on, and don't forget we're here if you need help.

Andy.

Originally posted by GaryJC
Tom, my guess is channel 7.2 will be the KABC Hispanic SAP broadcast, same video as 7.1. That seems to be the pattern for other locals offering SAP. Your KABC reception is another example that we all get widely varying results.

I hope that's not the case, since we would lose a lot of bandwidth on the main 7.1 channel. The end-result will be over-pixelated images as you see on multiplexed KCET-DT 1080i programs when there's any considerable amount of motion. 19.8 mbps is already cutting it short as the minimum for 1080i MPEG-2, but then 28.2 robs even more bandwidth from 28.1. It wouldn't be a problem if we were using MPEG-4, but MPEG-2 can't handle 1080i at 15 mbps.

Originally posted by ThumperBoy
KABC is broadcasting with low power.

They've increased their power in the last 3-4 weeks. I used to get a 55 level maximum for KABC-DT measured on my Hipix HTPC with a Silver Sensor indoor antenna in Pasadena. Without re-aiming or any changes watsoever I get a level of 85 and no more drop-outs (the highest Hipix has ever reported for any station). Several other people have reported improved reception in the last month.

KABC-TV has not increased their power.
They have update some of the transmission equipment.

The signal strength meter in the STB receivers is actually a Bit Error Rate meter.

Originally posted by LATV
The signal strength meter in the STB receivers is actually a Bit Error Rate meter.

Thanks for the correction. Either way for me, I'm getting no drop-outs anymore due to the lowered bit error rate. I guess that means good news to those of us to are relatively close to Mt. Wilson, but not necessarily to those trying to get a signal from farther away.

So I get home with the RS 2160 Antenna, and the 1171 amp. My son and I start putting together the antenna, and I find out it doesn't come with the 300ohm to 75 ohm transformer. You know, one of those connectors you had 5 of lying around 10 years ago.

Anyway, I had to make a run out to Radio Shack, again, after the kids went to bed. While I was out I picked up the Silver Sensor too at Good Guys. I got home and plugged that in with a 25 ft RG-6 cable and set it on top of my patio cover (didn't feel like climbing on the roof at 9pm last night). Not bad results, just throwing it up there and pointing the general direction I was able to get most stations except abc and fox, signal levels where about 50 percent without the 1171 in the mix.

Then I decided to hook up the 2160. Once again I just threw it up on the patio cover and tried to point it in the general direction. Because of it's shape, it was pointing out in space somewhere instead of at Mt Wilson, but that didn't seem to matter. Signals where up to around 65-70% and I now got fox. abc was still only about 14 percent, so no video there. Once again this was without the 1171.

Tonight I am going to put it up in my roof and point it properly. Try it without the 1171 first, then add that and see what it does. If I can get them to all be above 80 or so I will be happy.

I will report back when I have some results...

Rob

Rob,

I think the 2160 is generally well regarded by the regulars on this thread. I have two of them and find them excellent value for money. They are certainly NOT the best UHF antenna out there, but for the cost they're hard to beat. Likewise with the 1171 - for its cost and general availability it's a great preamp as long as your cable run isn't too long.

Andy.

Rob,

As far as signal strength is concerned I wouldn't get too stressed out about it. It's not like Analog signals where the PQ improves as the signal strength gets better - with digital you either get it or you don't. As long as you don't get dropouts you will be fine. Most of my signals are in the 50-60% range (some below that as well) and I hardly ever get dropouts.

Andy.

Originally posted by AndyS
Rob,

As far as signal strength is concerned I wouldn't get too stressed out about it. It's not like Analog signals where the PQ improves as the signal strength gets better - with digital you either get it or you don't. As long as you don't get dropouts you will be fine. Most of my signals are in the 50-60% range (some below that as well) and I hardly ever get dropouts.

Andy.

Thanks Andy, that is good to know. I kind of figured that, based on my experience with DSS. With my first antenna, if it was above 50 it was pretty good. I guess I said 80, because I wanted to leave some padding for weather or other problems that might cause interference.

Almost time to go home and set up the antenna. woo hoo...

Originally posted by rteegarden
Tonight I am going to put it up in my roof and point it properly. Try it without the 1171 first, then add that and see what it does. If I can get them to all be above 80 or so I will be happy.

I will report back when I have some results...

I tried all sorts of combinations with the 1171, Silver Sensor, RS 2160, 25ft. RG-6 and 50ft. RG-6. I placed the 1171 right at the antenna and at the receiver end, but it didn't make a noticeable difference. The RS 2160 gave me about 10-15 better signal than the silver sensor. So I finally settled on the RS 2160 with 50ft of RG-6 and no 1171 (picture below).

My Signal strengths are (+- 5% based on who knows what):
CBS 81%
NBC 81%
WB 87%
ABC 75%
FOX 69%
PBS 53%

I am happy with these, looking forward to game 7 tonight - GO DUCKS!


http://www.teegarden.net/images/aao/antenna.jpg

Nice mounting job, Rob! Your antenna looks like it's protected from the wind...

UPDATE ON PRE-AMP UPGRADE...

I just swapped out my Radio Shack 15-1109 wide band pre-amp. I replaced it with a Channel Master 7775 UHF-only pre-amp. The RS pre-amp has 26dB gain and its noise figure (the figure of merit for noise added by the amplifier itself) is not given. The CM7775 has 22dB gain and NF = 2.

Before swapping amplifiers, I did a quick scan and recorded signal levels for all the DTV stations on my Dish 6000 receiver. I wanted to provide baseline numbers for comparison after the new amp was in place.

The results were amazing. The receiver's DTV scan found 14 channels, 23 if you include the -02, -03, etc secondary stations. My previous best scan was 10 channels, just once or twice, and I usually found just 9.

With a little analysis the reason was obvious. The RS 15-1109 gain was rolling off at the high end of the band! In the table below, I arranged the DTV stations in descending UHF channel order, using the information found at http://100kwatts.tmi.net/tv/LAX.html . Five "new" channels were found when the CM 7775 pre-amp was installed.

Stations are listed in descending UHF channel order. The station numbers shown are given by my Dish 6000 receiver :


Statn UHF Call Before After
66-01 66 KCOP ----- 79-81
11-01 65 KTTV ----- 67-69
18-01 61 KSCI ----- 87-91
02-01 60 KCBS ----- 92-94
28-02 59 KCET 49-52 78-82
28-01 59 KCET 49-52 87-91
07-01 53 KABC 85-87 82-90
50-01 48 KOCE 93-95 84-88
09-01 43 KCAL 79-81 86-88
58-01 41 KLCS ----- 85-90 162kW
04-01 36 KNBC 88-91 84-91
34-01 35 KMEX 90-91 83-87
05-01 31 KTLA 73-79 90-93


I had occasionally received KCOP and KTTV before this change. KCET was sometimes found, usually with frequent drop-outs. I never received KCBS for more than 1 or 2 mangled frames in a row, and it was usually "invisible". With the new pre-amp, KCBS is one of my strongest DTV stations.

At this point, my reception is quite good on all stations. I still want to relocate my DAT-75 antenna to a less prominent location, but I'm reluctant to mess with it since it's working so well!

My ad hoc pre-amp tests agree with Gary Goodrum's findings: The RS 15-1109 amp is not a strong contender, and my unit must have had low gain at the upper end of the UHF band...

Gary

Gary,

I believe that the 7775 has a 26dB gain. The 1109 is rated as 30dB gain but somehow I doubt that...

Andy.

Andy,
You're probably right. I just remember that the Channel Master amp is supposed to have 4dB less gain than the RS one. Maybe the gain figures for both amps are true, except the 7775 has a flatter response across the entire band...

Gary

Gary,

I don't doubt the CM figures, but for the RS amp I'm sceptical. Sure - it could have a higher gain (along with an increased noise-figure) but it's supposedly a VHF/UHF amp so it would be VERY wideband - can't believe that it would work at that level of gain across the entire spectrum.

Interestingly the RS amp's gain is defined as "Typical Gain".....

FYI - I replaced my RS 1171 with a CM 7775 a couple of weeks back and see consistently better figures.

Andy.

As I've said in the past, gain really isn't that important, it's the noise factor. If you get the 1171 the same distance from the antenna as the 7775, you won't see a difference even thought the gain on the 7775 is 26 dB vs 15 dB for the 1171. If the cable run is about 25 feet or more between the 1171 and the antenna performance will start dropping off but it will still work a lot better than the 1109 which has a split amp/PS setup like the 7775.

The trick is to amplify just enough of the main signal ABOVE the noise so that it will allow the receiver to differentiate between the main signal and the multipath reflections. Anything beyond that is wasted and can actually hinder performance if it overloads the receiver.

-- Gary

It's clear that RS dropped the ball in the design of the 15-1109. It looks like the gain falls off sharply in the UHF mid-50 channel range. Looking at my table above, UHF channel 59-KCET and above saw big improvements, while 53-KABC and below saw little improvement.

My incremental improvement using the CM 7775 amp was a clear situation where gain (or consistent gain) was more important than NF. I wasn't receiving upper channels with drop-outs -- they were completely absent! KCET was right on the knee. Sometimes it would be there, sometimes not, but whenever it was there, it was generally unviewable with frequent drop-outs.

For antenna amps, I'm in favor of the mast-mount design approach that uses a DC power insertion module at the TV. No DC power plug on the pre-amp. For readers unfamiliar with these products, the mast-mount scheme is used with the RS 15-1109 and CM 7775, while the RS 15-1171 uses a conventional wall transformer. (Avoid the 15-1109 for performance reasons.)

In my opinion, the conventional wall transformer used with the RS 15-1171 causes installation difficulties. You need a 110V receptacle near the pre-amp location, or must extend the wall transformer wiring. So the installer is tempted to mount the pre-amp in a location far from the antenna; amplifying at the receiver would be the worst possible choice. But it sounds like it offers good performance if you can power it near the antenna.

For best results, mount the pre-amp as close as possible to the antenna. This provides the best signal/noise ratio at the receiver. You're amplifying the antenna signal at its strongest, before it's attenuated by a long cable run. And its inherent noise will cause less s/n deterioration. While both of my mast-mount amps had weatherproof housings and hardware for mounting on the antenna mast, I used a 4-foot cable run from the roof-mounted antenna to my attic, where I mounted the amp at the point of entry. Then a 75-foot cable run from the pre-amp output to my receiver.

GG, thanks for the online sources for buying the 7775 in an earlier post.

Almost all my stations are consistently in the 80s and 90s. Picture quality isn't even a factor anymore, without line-of-sight to Mt. Wilson! I'm inclined to temporarily re-mount the RS 15-2160 yagi for a side-by-side showdown with the Big Dog DAT-75. I can't believe I'm now contemplating a step down for the sake of a less conspicuous antenna!

Gary

Gary,

That's funny! - welcome back to the 2160 club ;)

Andy.

Thats because the RS 15-1171 isn't designed as a mast-mount outdoor preamp - its designed as an indoor digital cable amplifier! Totally different purpose than the CM7775/7777 preamps.

WOW this is a long thread - unbelievable that it didn't include any discussion of Costa Mesa as far as I could tell...I'm a DirecTV subscriber looking for a solution to local channels via OTA reception and antennaweb.org is recommending a yellow-coded small multi for me...will one of those Terk clip-ons to the dish do the trick?

Thanks

No, those gimmky Terk antennas are terrible junk! Go with a real all-metal antenna like the high-rated Channel Master or Winegard models. They are cheaper and top performers.

Yellow should be pretty easy to meet. How about a Zenith Silver Sensor? Its an indoor antena but seems pretty highly regarded on most boards (as opposed to the Terk). Silver Sensor is cheaper too.

I agree, the silver sensor my be a great first try! Sears or Circuit City carries them, around $40.00

Let us know how it goes!
~Tom

Another member here gets great results from a single Silver Sensor with no amp, mounted under an eave and he's in Fountain Valley. If the cable run is under about 25 feet from the antenna to your receiver I've also had good luck with the RS 15-1171 "Bi-Directional Cable Amp". If not, I'd also recommend the CM 7775.

-- Gary

Gary,

I'm going to try the double stacked Silver Sensors at my place in Mission Viejo. Can you send me the PVC parts list I will need.

Thanks,

Bruce

I also sent you a PM.

Thanks for the tips!

Bruce --

Check out the picture below and you can see what you need. Basically, just a few 3/4 "tees" and "crosses" and a couple of feet of 3/4 pipe. What you want to end up with is one SS about a foot above the other with both at a 45 degree angle in relation to the elevation to the transmiters. For most the elevation would be close to 0 but because Mt. Wilson is above 5,000 feet the elevation is about 5 degrees from down here.

http://www.ceoanalytix.com/AVSForum/Antennas/Dual%20SS-1.jpg

What I did was to cut slits about 3/8ths of an inch in one end of the tee to hold the SS blade. Seems to work well. I didn't use any glue for any of this. Just plug all the "Tinker Toys" together!

Good luck!

-- Gary

I got KLCS digital a couple of months ago but haven't been able to receive it lately. Is it still on the air?

Okay - I've done a little legwork here based on user comments and will probably end up with an outdoor Channel Master or Winegard - the questions now become - probably leaning to a Winegard:

1) Which model?
2) What else do I need besides the antenna?

It will be running to a Samsung TS-160 STB.

OK, long time since I've needed this thread. Hope some experts are still out there. I'm having issues with Monday Night Football. I get "pixalization,Flashing,blocking,movement" of the grass field while watching OTA KGTV San Diego. I seems to be most apparent around the center of the action. I'm now being told that last night's game was the best PQ that has been seen from San Diego to date. I felt it was horrible. Could the distance be a factor in this? I was under the impression that once a signal is locked in that's as good as it gets. Is there more to this than meets the eye?

Robert

You are mistaken. At such long distances you are getting variations with atomspheric conditions particulary in the summer months. You will start to get pixelation in motion areas just before it drops below the threshold of reception. Some STBs are worse than others in this respect, what STB model are you using and what type of antenna/preamp? Its not all or nothing with variable signals you are depending on tropo-ducting.

I'm using my Mits integrated tuner 65869, CM4228 (have used televes dat75) and cm7775. So the idea that a signal from a digital source is either on or off is wrong? Hey BTW are you the Thumper that HDSD forum like to harass? :)

Robert

There are actually three states, all good, nothing and that "in-between" stage that you are experiencing where the receiver is losing its lock on the signal, causing the pixelization. This is exactly why I switched from the CM4228 to my dual 2160 setup, which is much more directional. Your current problem is because of some atmospheric-influenced multipath. I used to get this 2-3 times a week with the 4228/7775 combo. I haven't had any with the dual 2160's and the 1171 amp.

You might do better to go to a standalone receiver. The newer ones are a lot better at MP rejection.

-- Gary

I have given some thought to a STB, any recommendations?

Robert

I have the Zenith HDV420 and it performs very well. I'm 58 miles from Mt Wilson and I receive all stations. Most are 80-90%. This is with a Silver Sensor and no amp. I've also read good reviews on this STB about its MP rejection and ability to lock on weak signals.

-chuck-

Thanks Chuck, I'll check it out

Robert

robhair,

I am in Irvine and just installed Radio Shack UHF antenna ($21) in my attic with Samsung SIR-T165 STB. I get very good and consistant signal from most of channels - PBS HD being absolutely the best of all!

The funny part of all the installation and testing process was that the transformer from 300-75 ohm made a huge difference. I initially used the basic Radio Shack transformer and signals were mediocre. Then I changed that one piece to Radio Shack's GOLD Premium one (few bucks more). What a nice surprise! It made a HUGE difference in my case... I had purchased even an inline amp just in case and was ready to use... but then with the GOLD Premium transformer, I didn't even need the amp. That saved me extra $45!

I never thought the transformer would make such a difference!

Samsung SIR-T165 worked great right out of the box!

Nothing like 3 hours of reading a thread. Wow that was a ton of good info. However it didn't quite hit the perverbial nail on the head for me. I am in the process of re-locating to Temecula. At first I thought I was out of luck because Mt Palomar blocks the SD statoins and The Santa Ana mountians block Mt Wilson. However, when I went to antennaweb.org and plugged in my new address it said the LA stations were possible. Has anyone ever seen or heard of anyone in SW Riverside County getting OTS HDTV reception? If not what would be a good place to start for something like that where the antenna was a good distance away and there were mountains in the way?

I won't be moving for a few weeks so this is all preliminary leg work. Thanks.

I'm in South Orange County (Mission Viejo, off of La Paz, past Marguerite going up La Paz towards Olympiad/Felipe). Has anyone had any luck with the Winegard Sensar antennas? Like the GS2000A for example?

SDMonkey,

http://www.antennaweb.org uses real terrain data, so it's a pretty good predictor of actual reception. That said, the only way to know for sure is to do a site survey with an antenna on a tall pole, and field strength meter or portable TV. Be sure to aim around, because you may be looking for a bounce, or signals from San Diego. Walk around till you get the best analog reception. Put the biggest UHF antenna you can afford right there. The Channel Master 4228 comes to mind.

I'm new to OTA so please excuse this if it's a ridiculous question...

I live in Irvine. Is there any hope of installing an antenna in my attic and getting good reception? I was thinking either a "medium size" outdoor antenna squeezed up in there, or an array of SS's or RS DB's.

I live in a condo, three units per building and have access to my own private attic. The HOA does allow "professional" installation of DTV dishes, I doubt they've even considered HDTV antennas and would rather not "fight the battle".... besides I'm personally not a fan of slapping a big giant antenna on the side of the building or on my roof...

It'd be easy to day "just buy an SS" and try, but I don't want to buy an HDTV tuner unless it's going to work the way I want...

Thanks for any advice,
Jon

FYI, I'm at the intersection of Jamboree and Portola Parkway

jb510,

I live in Irvine, but it's a single house, I think you should buy a STB a local store, Cosco in Laguna Niguel has Sir T151, then buy an antenna also at local store that you can return. I think you will be able to watch HD in your condo.

Originally posted by qpham
I live in Irvine, but it's a single house,
<snip>I think you will be able to watch HD in your condo.

Thank you for responding qpham. Where is your attenna? and what kind do you have?

Thanks,
Jon

jb510,

I use the indoor antenna, I try both the SS and the RS 15-1880. The RS is better antenna. I have Samung SIR-T351, this one is similar to the T151 with the DVI connector. I know someone in your area have a good reception by using the indoor antenna. I think the Cosco in Tustin Ranch do had some SIR-T151 about 2 weeks ago.

So exactly how accurate is antennaweb.org? I know it is supposed to take topography and such into account when recommending an antenna, but it comes up with a recommendation of a "yellow" antenna (small multidirectional like a Winegard Sensar) for my house. I find it very difficult to believe that such a small antenna would work for me - I'm in Mission Viejo off La Paz going past Marguerite and towards Olympiad/Felipe. What are everyone's thoughts on antennaweb's accuracy?

The big bad,

The antennaweb.org works fine, I have the same recommendation and I use the RS 15-1880. I 'm close the Fwy 405 and Jefferey in Irvine. I know one person close to the lake Missionviejo, he has the SS antenna.

O.K
I've decided to give the outdoor antenna a try despite my concern for my neighbors (I think I can hide it from view). I am trying to get a sense for which outdoor antenna is the best to start with. My questions are:
Is it fair to asume that generally speaking if a concentrated, directional antenna such as a silver sensor gives you a signal that a more concentrated , directional outdoor antenna such as a RS-2160 or a Yagi would most likely work for you?
Conversely, if a multidirectional antenna like a RS-1880 works for you then a "high gain" multidirectional outdoor antenna like a CM 4221 or 4228 would must likely work for you?


Thanks,
Stephen

The reason I am asking the two questions above is because the silver sensor barely picked up a signal for me inside and outside whereas the R15-1880 indoor antenna picks up a signal but it varies constantly from the 30's to 60's.

Stephen

The 1880 works better because it has a built-in, low-noise amplifier. You can get clse to same performance if you add a RS 1171 cable amp or a CM 7775 preamp. Both are also very low-noise.

With digital signals, gain is less important than "directionability". There is plenty of gain provided by most antennas for the digital receiver to lock onto, even without an amp. This is true even down here, some sixty miles away. What gives digital receivers fits, however, is multi-path, which on an analog receiver shows ups as "ghosting" or multiple images. Low gain adds "snow" to the picture. Multipath is caused by signals bouncing off other large objects like mountains, buildings, etc., and arriving at your receiver at slightly different angles and times. If the receiver can't figure out which is the real signal and which is the "bounced" version, it loses lock and you get a blank screen.

The reason tha low-noise amp helps, to a point, is because it provides a bit better difference between the real signal and the multipath. Picture a graph with a "squiglly" line drawn where one Peak" is drawn a little higher than the others. It is clear to you which is the "tallest" peak but now move the graph across the room. It isn't so easy then. The low-noise amps are effectively bring the graph "closer". If you use an amp that generates too much noise, it can mask both the real and "bounced" signals. Picture a 3-year old coming in and drawing all over you nice graph. :)

What a directional antenna does is make the signals arriving directly in front of the antenna stronger than those arriving at different angles. Now, all of a sudden, the main peak on your graph got taller. Digital receivers like this very much. Again, since gain isn't as big a factor, almost any cheap antenna that provides a measure of directionability will work better than most of the less directional "bow-tie" designs.

You can drastically improve directionalbility, thereby reducing multi-path, by horizontally "stacking" two identical antennas in the same horizontal plane at some fraction of a wavelength apart (the math is in this thead somewhere but for mid-UHF frequencies, it works out to around 40 inches...) and then combining their outputs using identical length leads. This makes perfect sense, if you think about it, because now the only signals arriving directly in front of mid point of the two antennas will arrive at exactly the same time, thus staying in phase. This works for even the cheapest of the cheap UHF "Yagi-style" antennas, like the $22 RS 2160.

Originally, I had a monster 8-bay CM 4228 "bow-tie"-styled antenna installed off an upstairs deck, with a 7775 pre-amp. It worked very well and I got very high "numbers" on virtually all channels. The problem was that I would also get annoying dropouts everyday on most of those channels. Eventually I replaced this setup with a dual 2160 array and an 1171 amp. I now only get a dropout once every few months, and then only on certain channels.

The latest receiver designs have also made big improvements in handling multipath. I'm using a Sony HD200 and a Zenith HDV420 and both work a lot better than the E86 and 1st generation ATSC-only receivers. The next generation will be even better. The HDV420 works so well I can get away using two SS and an amp, or two 1880s sitting side-by-side, indoors in a loft area "looking" out a living room skylight/window towards Mt. Wilson.

Finally, probably the biggest single factor that has the greatest effect on performance is antenna location. You've got to move around and find the best "sweet spot". Sometimes just moving a few inches one way or another can make a huge difference, especially in attic installations.

-- Gary

WOW!!
Thanks alot Gary.
I will keep you posted.

Stephen,

Listen to Gary, he'll lead you in the right direction.

Robert

Has anyone in South Orange County tried using the Winegard PR 9012, 9014, or 9016? These seem to be pretty small outdoor directional/Yagi-type antennas and would probably be inconspicuous to the neighbors.

I'd give the 9016 a try. It is more directional than the other two. Actually, the specs are pretty good.

-- Gary

Gary,
I installed the RS 15-2160 and the RS 15-1171 outside over the weekend to boost up my signal. My signal strength is now average 60's to 70's. I now get the nbc digital station (I did not get it with the other antenna that I used) but I lost the PBS HD station. I still get some pixelation on most channels though. How do I prevent this pixelation for occuring? Do I need to get the signal stength up to the 90's?


Stephen

COX added 707 tonight! SWEET!@!!!!!

Robert

I get occasional video and/or sound drop outs with my Zenith HDV420 and a single Silver Sensor.

I live in the South Bay.
Which would work better?
-Two Silver Sensors in an "Array" (Horizontal or Vertical Stack?)
-One Silver Sensor with an Amplifier (RS-1171)

Would the Radio Shack 15-1170 In-Line Signal Amplifier work as well? Radio Shack Online does not list the 1171 at all.

-Ed

i live in tustin ranch with a mitsuhisbi hi-def intergrated 55' diamond series with a radio shack 2160 and channel master 7775 in the attic with a cable run well over 100ft. I have gone through about 10 diffrent antenna's and amps, and this is the best combination i could find. I get NBC ABC KCAL KCET clearly and i get FOX with a tendency to break up. What can i do to receive all channels without any breakups? CBS comes and goes, i rarely get KTLA and fox breaks up. I have tried almost everything and this is getting really frustrating! Someone about half a mile away from me has the same antenna with anntenna in the same location (in attic) and receives all channels in the 80-90 percentile! Am i doing something wrong? Would it work best if i just got this antenna on the roof or onto my patio? please help me i am bout break my 2160 and 7775 into a million pieces! ahhhhhhhh!!!

Are you using RG-6 cable with no splitters? Good luck with FOX. I used to get it okay and the last month or two can't get it at all. I live in a multi-path area in the City of Orange near Anaheim Hills. I'm wondering if FOX reduced the output of their antennas or something.

Is the neighbor you mention able to receive FOX in the 80-90 range?

Which HDTV receiver are you using?

From my experience getting the antenna outside on the roof is the best. For me angling the antenna slightly up gives me the best results.

Yeah no splitters, but the wire run is well over 100ft.

Im not sure about my neighbor's fox... but when i was using the 2160 with the radio shack amp.. i could get fox clearly along with some CBS. With the channel master i get a broken up fox and little/no CBS

Im using the intergrated tuner that came with my Mitsubishi HDTV WS-55989.

Over the weekend ill try putting it on top of my patio, and try angling it in my attic. Ill post my results, thanks.

how's everyone's PQ?

I've noticed the broadcasts, look washed out. The blacks are not as black as can be. I'm wondering if it is the broadcasting, or my hardware.

I'm using a Zenith HDV420 with a Samsung HLN467

-Ed

-Ed

Edwood: how do DVDs look on your Sammy? That should answer your question (especially if connecting with DVI via the Samsung HD-931 or Bravo D1 if your Sammy has a DVI connector).

I don't find OTA HDTV washed out at all but certainly notice the picture quality varies. Leno and soem stuff on KCET/PBS is probably the best HDTV you can find for OTA. CSI and Smallville also look great.

Originally posted by WynsWrld98
Edwood: how do DVDs look on your Sammy? That should answer your question (especially if connecting with DVI via the Samsung HD-931 or Bravo D1 if your Sammy has a DVI connector).

I don't find OTA HDTV washed out at all but certainly notice the picture quality varies. Leno and soem stuff on KCET/PBS is probably the best HDTV you can find for OTA. CSI and Smallville also look great.

I think it's the crappy component cables that came with the Zenith HDV420, or the component 3 input itself. I tried the RGB(HD-15 PC), and it looks much better. Some shows are a bit more washed out than others, but, I guess that has more to do with the source. I watched CSI Miami last night, and it looks great. Now if only KCOP 66 (UPN) would broadcast in HD......:rolleyes:

I did find a wierd problem with underscan? through the RGB (PC) output. On some HD channels like KCET-DT ( 28-1) and some SD channels (ones with letterboxes on the sides), the picture has a small black bar on the left. almost like the picture is shifted to the right, or is missing part of the picture. It does not do this with Component output. However, some shows like CSI and many other stations like WB, output a full picture.

Does KCET-DT put out a different resolution or someting?

-Ed

I read that UPN recently started broadcasting Star Trek Enterprise in HDTV and some other show. I haven't tuned in to confirm this.

They are broadcasting Enterprise in HD. Just not in LA , yet. Grrrrrrr.....

Is Star Trek Enterprise still being filmed? That's the only way they could broadcast anything in HD...

xcrappy - You gotta try a roof antenna outside the attic! At least TRY IT to see what you're missing with an attic-mounted antenna. Doesn't matter what nearby friends are getting, the only results that matter are YOURS.

You've apparently tried a lot of different equipment, but you need to see the best reception that your location offers. You can always decide to accept less...

My guess -- You might settle for "kinda working most of the time" for a while, but eventually you'll try to get the best possible signal all the time.

Attic solutions are always hit and miss. Many times just moving a few inches can make a huge difference. You will definitely have much better luck outside. If you must keep it in the attic, try different spots.

Like real estate, it's location, location, location! I have one spot in my loft that looks out a 3 x 10 foot skylight/window in the living room, up a canyon towards Mt. Wilson. From that one spot I can use the Radio Shack 1260/1880 amplified indoor antenna and get dropout-free reception on my HDV-420 receiver. Actually the signal is split and it also drives a MyHD card in a PC. If I move that antenna, even two inches, in any direction, the signal goes away. Not just a little, but completely! I'm at least 60 miles from the transmitters so this illustrates that signal strength is not the issue, just finding the right spot with the least amount of multi-path.

-- Gary

You bring up several good points. When just a few inches can make such a big difference, a neighbor's results will not necessarily be a good predictor of one's reception. I remember other local O.C. posts in an earlier thread - they too had good success with attic mounts, even in this 50+ mile range, clearly demonstrating the hit/miss aspect.

A big factor with inside antennas is the building material the antenna "looks through". While a window causes negligible loss, pointing through an attic wall or roof will be worse. I think the worst situation is pointing through stucco, since expanded steel lattice is stapled to the framing as underlayment for the initial brown coat. With the wavelength of UHF signals, it might as well be a continuous foil layer.

My own tests started with the 15-2160 clamped to the top of a 6 foot ladder, in the yard. I was encouraged by halfway decent results. Next I began looking for a suitable permanent spot, starting in the attic. Unfortunately I had to aim through a stucco wall. The attic offered just a small enclosed space where the antenna would fit. I could temporarily nail the mast mount upside down from the roof joists, and move it within a limited range. I was disappointed with poor reception, far worse than my ladder tests, despite a 20+ foot elevation gain.

Finally, I moved the antenna just outside the attic wall it had been aiming through (the present location) and saw my best results. Unfortunately I can't express it in percent improvement, and I know now that my 15-1109 pre-amp was another limiting factor at that time, but I clearly remember there was "no going back" once I saw the improved reception.

My neighbor across the street just bought a Sony plasma set and is getting the HDTV-capable box from Cox Cable. Yesterday I started getting the initial questions about the roof antenna, so I see another round of experiments here!

Gary

Luckily it doesn't get windy here in Orange County too often or we'd be screwed regarding OTA antennas mounted outside. Everytime we get a wind storm it's obvious when TRYING to watch OTA HDTV.

I guess people in desert areas that get intense wind pretty frequently would be limited to cable to get their OTA type HDTV channels.

Due to Santa Ana winds Saturday night I'm unable to get CBS-HD, FOX-HD, KCET-HD and UPN-HD although I'm getting everything else strong. I have a remote antenna rotator but even that couldn't pull them in. I've never had problems receiving CBS-HD so this is very odd. I'm in a bad multipath area and the trick for me is to angle the front of the antenna into the air and I think it's a bit off due to wind. So up on the roof soon...

WynsWrld98:

Is your signal loss during the Santa Ana's only due to antenna movement, or do you think that the additional dust and smoke in the air could be attenuating the RF signal?

avitt: good question...

I’ve posted a few notes in the Hardware section under 3100A impressions about my box, but I wanted to post here to thank all of you folks for helping me decide on how to go about what I needed to do and not throw away a bunch of money in the process.

I live in Long Beach, and my zip code is 90803. I am just south of CSULB and 35 miles from the antennas on Mt. Wilson. I was worried about line of sight, but it doesn’t seem to be a problem. I hooked up a Radio Shack antenna (Cat. 15-2160) and tossed it on a chair pointed out the door. Did the channel search and got all of the available OTA stations from Mt. Wilson and a few others. I moved the antenna to my attic, with about 30 feet of cable attached, and got the same thing. I played around with pointing it in different directions, but the highest signal meter reading was just over half way on pretty much all of the channels. If I have any dropping problems I’ll install a pre-amp. So far they all come in great with no pixalation (sp?) and no audio drops to date, even CBS. Of course I haven’t watched that much, but so far so good. I have great reception on all channels, the PQ is outstanding, and the audio is great too through my Yamaha surround system.

In the end, I have what I paid for. I do have a problem with the display on my box, but as long as I get to see what I’m seeing now with the quality I have, I’m a happy guy. I’m even thinking of toying around with a couple of these 2160 stacked horizontally with a pre-amp and point south to see if I can pick up San Diego broadcasts clearly. It would be good during baseball season for me.

I came up with an easy mounting scheme I thought I’d throw in. I had some ½ inch copper pipe laying around the garage, so I cut a piece about 3 feet long, pounded the end flat, drilled a couple holes in it, screwed it to one of the rafters in the attic and then suspended the antenna. It worked great and was easy as pie.

You guys are GREAT, thank you.

I am a newbie to HDTV and I am glad I found this thread that really helps me clear a lot of my questions. I am located in Ladera Ranch - adjacent to RSM and Mission Viejo. I have a perfect clearance from my backyard to the North and believe that I may be able to get OTA HDTV. Actually, I'm going to put an antenna on my roof to best receive all the HDTV local stations but have never done this before. I'd like to know how to install a roof top antenna in a proper way to have a good protection from LIGHTNING. What are your thoughts and/or experiences about this concern and would you have any useful Internet link that replies to my question? Thanks.

Commenting on two of the above posts...

Regarding multipath and wind:
Multipath involves reflections from stationary objects that are offset from the direct line-of-sight to the transmitter. Besides wind causing movement of your antenna and mast, I suspect that in many cases the offending stationary reflecting object is also swaying. This is particularly true in the case of buildings that might sway several feet at the top in high winds. It might be enough to change the phase relationship between the primary and reflected signals enough to cause dropouts, etc.

Regarding lightning protection:
Instructions that come with a new antenna will always have grounding instructions. It basically means running a copper wire from the antenna mast to a grounding rod pounded into the ground. The path should be as short as possible. The gauge almost doesn't matter - it simply establishes a low resistance path to ground and after that, the path through air is ionized even after the copper wire is vaporized. Still, it's best to follow the instructions so you don't invalidate your insurance.

Gary

Hi all, maybe I've missed it, but I've spent all day at work today reading through all sorts of different OTA/ antenna posts. (Bottle of excedrin required) Could someone please tell me where to get some of these antennas. I've seen the Channel Masters at Lowes, and of course the Radio Shack ones speak for themselves, but what about the others?

Also, I live in Aliso Viejo at the top of Glenwood, anyone know someone nearby who would be willing to help out one afternoon setting this up? It would be much appreciated.

-Mike

Mike,

I'm happy to help. I work in Aliso Viejo close by you so I could share my experiences as well as those of my
friends who I've helped to get OTA reception over the past few years. Send an e-mail to bweimer@cox.net
and we'll set it up.

Bruce

I can't seem to find a North San Diego post, so I think this one may have the most people in the same bind I am - not too close to either SD or LA. I am opposite in that I am closer to SD, but otherwise the same. I am up on a hill, and there is no HOA or even nearby neighbors, so I can put up a "major" antenna without any fear of repercussions.

After doing some research on this board and other boards, as far as I can tell this may be good for what I need:

CM3671 (antenna)
CM9521 (rotor)
CM7777 (pre-amp)

Even for just SD channels I don't think multi-directional would work - I'm too far away. So I think a directional one that I can rotate would work best. Does anyone have a setup like this? Does it work well? Right now I have Cox, and I hate them with a passion, so I'm thinking of getting DirecTV, which is why I'm also looking for an antenna setup.

Along these lines, is there a recommended box for combining DirecTV and Antenna signals?

Thanks in advance.

Go with a Channel Master model 4221 and point it due south. It has high gain and about a 60degree beam-width capable of receiving all the San Diego stations from North County with no rotor. You can add the CM7777 preamp if you need it.

it took me some time to find a general thread addressing ota hd for so cal, but here it is. im in sherman oaks (91411) and just recently got my zenith hdv420 and zenith silver sensor. since watching my first sporting event (superbowl) in HD, im hooked! i've been trying to get local independent KCAL 9 (laker games) but just cant get my receiver/antenna to pick it up. i've tried with the antenna in the viewing room, outside, in the attic.... just no luck. anybody out there got any tips/tricks that i may try to get KCAL?? i also dont get UPN, but there is nothing on UPN that i wish to watch....

Originally posted by ratbrain
anybody out there got any tips/tricks that i may try to get KCAL?? i also dont get UPN, but there is nothing on UPN that i wish to watch....
I'm too far away to give you any tricks, but just wanted to make sure you knew that both KCAL-DT and KCOP-DT are SD only. If you already get them from cable or DBS, it might not be worth the trouble to mess with your antenna.

thanks fletch. i guess i should be happy with the channels i receive already with an indoor antenna. at least after reading the forum, i didnt make the mistake of getting the terk 55! i wonder if getting the roof mounted antenna (channel master) would really make a difference....

KCAL only turns on the digital transmitter in the evenings, so try between 6 & 11pm. I'm in Sherman Oaks also and the only one thats tricky for me is KCOP, I really need to play with the antenna for that one. No big deal as they don't do any HD and their SD quality sucks and looks no better than cable or DirecTV.

Tony

thanks alot for you input tony. i was really looking for some feedback from somone that lives in the same area. i was really hoping that the KCAL broadcast of laker games in DTV was significantly better, but i guess that was wishful thinking. i currently watch the games off my directivo and on my pioneer 503cmx plasma display and i must say the SD broadcast really looks terrible.. no matter if i have the screen set to wide, full, 4:3, it really still looks like sh*t.... i guess i will play around with my antenna and see for myself how much a dissappointment the KCAL local DTV broadcasts look. thanks again.

Please update your location in your profile to receive local feedback.

KCAL, like KCBS (they are owned by the same company and share some facilities) upconverts to 1080i with black sidebars on 9.1 so if your zoom can deal with that, you may see an improvement. They used to also broadcast 480i on 9.2 but I'm not sure if they are still doing that.

KCOP broadcasts 480i and looks pretty much the same as DirecTV.

Tony

So ABC only broadcasts in 720, eh? My Sony WS5700 with Zenith 420HDV, pulling in signal from CM 4228 to my place near Disneyland, in Anaheim, CA, will not pick up Channel 7 or 9. I just figured out why not ABC, that Sony does not "do" 720. Strange thing was, when I first got the unit last week, I tried a RS amplified indoor antenna, "just to see," and it picked up Channels 34 and 52. Now, these are both on the same bearing and distance as almost every HD tower in SoCal. Are they pumping out more wattage, like those AM radio stations that sit just across the border and broadcast at 100,000 watts? I get all the other stations very nicely.

Originally posted by theod
My Sony WS5700 with Zenith 420HDV, pulling in signal from CM 4228 to my place near Disneyland, in Anaheim, CA, will not pick up Channel 7 or 9. I just figured out why not ABC, that Sony does not "do" 720.
I'm not familiar with the 420, but are saying that it can't convert the 720p signal to 1080i?

As noted above KCAL-DT only transmits from 6-11 PM. What time of day did you try it? I know people in San Clemente who can receive it fine. You should have no trouble unless you have some kind of obstruction.

wow, people from san clemente can receive KCAL?!? i have to try messing around with my silver sensor a little more then. i also have the zenith hdv420 and i believe the resolution can be set to 1080/720/480. the 1080 and the 720 are active through the component jacks and the 480 is through the composites. i have left the resolution set to 1080 and have not noticed any trouble. im not sure if it upconverts a native 720 signal to 1080 though

The problem is with the Sony television, viz. 720 not being shown. I did check the evening signal for KCAL, it is fine, thanks for the correction.

If the output of The Zenith 420 is set to 1080i, it will upconvert everything that is not natively 1080i to that resolution. You don't need to worry about the fact that KABC is 720p or KTTV is 480p, it will deal with it. If you can get other LA stations but not KABC, its an antenna thing. Try a preamp perhaps?.

Tony

could a preamp used w/ my silver sensor help receive KCAL? if so, what make/model do you recommend?

Regarding pre-amp, yes, I suppose I could try that. I was just a bit flummoxed that KABC is on the exact same bearing and distance as all the others, and would have thought it would put out enough power to be clean, especially if folks south of me are able to receive it.

Kabc has the lowest powered transmitter in the Los Angeles area for DTV.

I can believe that. KMEX must have the highest-powered, since I got it clear with an indoor antenna that would not get me any of the others (except 52).

thanks

Originally posted by hdtvmitsu
Kabc has the lowest powered transmitter in the Los Angeles area for DTV.

That's an understatement, they put out half the power of the other networks, 182kw last time I checked compare to over 400kw for NBC. I can not get KABC. It barely nudges the signal meter on my LG stb. I'm in Laguna Niguel near the 5 fwy. I'm thinking of getting a second antenna pointed south to see if I can pickup KGTV (ABC) in San Diego. I'm using probably one of the largest Winegard antenna's and their most powerful amp.

The problem with digital reception is almost always multipath (ghosting or multiple images on an analog set...), not gain (low gain = snow on an analog picture...). Because of this, typical high-gain antennas don't necessarily work any better than a inexpensive lower-gain model, especially if the cheaper unit is more directional. The reason the SS works so well, even down here in Orange County, is because of its directionality.

As for amplifiers, again big expensive high-gain amps/preamps may actually make it harder for a digital receiver to lock onto the signal, if the noise factor for that amp is not very low (2.0dB or less...). All that is really needed is enough of a gain improvement that the receiver can differentiate the real signal from the reflections. I've found two work well for me, the CM 7775 preamp and the RS 1171 cable distrbution amplifier (may be out of production now...).

Another combo that works well is the RS indoor amplified unit that has the squarish reflector and two "D"-shaped elements. I think there is a new part number for this but I believe all they did was add "HDTV compatible" on the box. Anyway, I use one on these in a loft looking out a skylight window in the living room towards Mt Wilson, which is 60 miles from here, connected to both a Zenith HDV-420 and a PC with a MyHD card. I've had droppout-free reception with this setup for well over a year now.

-- Gary

after messing around w/ my zenith SS for a couple hrs this weekend, i still am unable to receive KCAL...... will a CM 7775 improve the situation? if so, where can you buy one and for how much?

The only place I've ever found the CM 7775's at is either www.starkelectronic.com or www.warrenelectronics.com and it is about $50 I think. RS used to have the 15-1171 "BiDirectional Cable Amplifier" but they must not sell it anymore as this (http://support.radioshack.com/support_video/doc57/57178.htm) was the only reference I could find to it on their website.

-- Gary

darn. its out of stock at stark electronics. i checked the radio shack web site and i do see a pre amp

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F001&product%5Fid=15%2D1109

has anyone used this unit before with acceptable results? i would much rather pick something up B&M and be able to try and return it the same day versus ordering online and having to wait and possibly pay for shipping to return also..... what to do!

Sorry, but this unit is junk! It has a noise factor greater than 5dB. There isn't a single amp or preamp in RS' whole catalog that will work. Sorry!

I've purchased a ton of stuff from Warren Electronics. Always got the stuff within a couple of days and they always had what I needed in stock.

-- Gary

okay. thanks for the input. glad to find out that this is RS crap. i tried stark electronics but they are out of stock. i guess i will check warren electronics and hope for the best. thanks again!

Has anybody else in the Los Angeles area had any trouble receiving KCET and CBS OTA in the past few days? They are both normally rock solid at my location (Encino), but over the weekend I had terrible reception on CBS and no signal at all on KCET.

I'm getting every other station I usually receive, with no trouble and very strong signals. Likewise, VHF and UHF analog reception (off the same antenna) is perfectly fine.

I suspect it's related to the stormy conditions we've been having, but it seems odd that I'm having no trouble with other stations.

im in sherman oaks and i remember channel surfing thru cbs on fri night and yesterday afternooon and my cbs was there like normal. i did anticipate the bad weather to interfere but it hasnt as bad as the high winds from a month ago. the winds caused drops on my fox and nbc but the rain hasnt caused much of a problem....

Originally posted by ratbrain
im in sherman oaks and i remember channel surfing thru cbs on fri night and yesterday afternooon and my cbs was there like normal. i did anticipate the bad weather to interfere but it hasnt as bad as the high winds from a month ago. the winds caused drops on my fox and nbc but the rain hasnt caused much of a problem....

Thanks for the info. Yep, the winds blew my antenna every which way, but I've since guyed it more securely and it's still pointing straight at Mt. Wilson. Maybe I've got a bad connection somewhere that is aggravated by moisture, but it seems odd that only two channels are affected.

We're very close to each other, and I'd be curious to know if your KCET-HD reception is okay. I can still tune CBS, although it pixelates badly. I get no signal at all on KCET.

i think i tried KCET once just to see it fire up after the initial check of available stations. i will try to see how the KCET reception is tonight and post if and how good the signal is from KCET. FYI, i am only using a zenith silver sensor w/ zenith hdv420.

No problems here.

Just got home from work....both KCET and CBS are coming in loud and clear again. Who knows....

Thanks for the input.

KCET and CBS came in fine last night. both were in the good signal range.

Hello All,

I just tried the Winegard Square Shooter with the matching HDP269 preamp and the
results were very good. I live in Laguna Niguel (very hilly area) and can pick up the
major networks (except for ABC) with the antenna just sitting on my living room floor.
I'll mount it on the roof this weekend... Hopefully, I can pick up ABC then. But, I'm very
pleased with the results from this antenna since all the stations are 40-50 miles away.
The nice thing is that this antenna is small and looks just like a square version of a sat
dish. It's expensive but I think it's worth it... You can pick it up from warren electronics or
solidsignal online (about $99 for the antenna and $50 for the preamp).

BlindLemonLarry,

just wanted to tell you that my CBS did drop out after 10pm on Tues night 2/24. i checked for about 15 mins and the screen said no signal..... however, i didnt check last night when it rained all night...

We just completed a (digital) over the air installation in Beverly Hills. Just off of Sunset Blvd. We used a Winegard Sharpshooter mounted on the highest point of the house.We used a spectrum analyzer to peak the signal. Initially a few of the channels; 5.1, 7.1, 9.1 and 28.1 were sporadic. The signal strength meter on the E86 Hughes would jump up and down indicating multipath. On Friday we installed a 4700 Winegard preamp, now all channels are seemingly rock solid. I assume the signal is still varying,but the preamp keeps the signal above the minimum required.The sharpshooter seems like a good antenna,especially for UHF. Another nice touch is the weatherized enclosure! It should last indefinitely.

Squareshooter.

Oops! Although it is a "sharpshooting antenna" it is officially named "Squareshooter" .Sorry about that

if this square shooter works and can receive kcal, i might have to give this a try!

I've been trying to find the RS 1171 amp but it looks like it's not made anymore.
I can only find the RS 1170. Will they work the same ?

I can pick up KCAL (50mi away). However, they have limited hours
of operation. I believe they are on during primetime hours...

thats what ive been told about KCAL too. i've tried fussing with my silver sensor in about every possible way but just cant seem to get it to receive KCAL though..... or UPN.... planning on getting the CM 7775 pre-amp to see if i have better luck.

just found this site related to OTA's and LA...
atechfabrication.com/reception_solutions.htm

Me again... I'm trying to find a local store (in LA) which would sale a CM 7775. i'm geting my DTVHD installed on Saturday and if I buy it on the net, I won't be getting it til Monday...
Anyone here would know ?

Jitter, where are you near in Laguna Niguel? I'm by CVP and Greenfield. I get all the channels except ABC. I got it for a short amount of time and then it went away. Have you tried getting KGTV (ABC in San Diego)? I was thinking of getting the cheap RS antena pointed south just for that station. I'm trying to get the whole house on HDTV but it's tough without ABC.

As for indoor antena's, my buddy with a Silver Sensor on top of his TV in Mission Viejo gets all the same channels as me. I think ABC with their "Mickey Mouse" transmitter is going to be extremely tough, San Diego's ABC has twice the power.

buellwinkle - where in Mission Viejo does your friend live?

I'm over by Aliso Creek and Moulton. Not having ABC sucks.... I'm gonna try
a higher gain preamp (CM7777) which has 26dB gain versus the 12dB from
the HDP269. My channels that I get are about 60% strength.

I visited a friend last November near the Glendale/Burbank line, up against the San Rafael mountains. ABC told me I would not be able tp pick up the digital signal from KABC-53 at this location, looking at a terrain plot. The view of Mt. Wilson is completely obstructed.

Using a modified Channel Master 4308, a Channel Master 7775 UHF preamp, 10' of mast in the side yard, and 100' of RG-6 feeding a Samsung 165 tuner, 12 stations were readily received, including KCBS, KNBC, KTLA, KCET, KCAL, KWHY, KMEX, KTTV, etc.

The location was characterized by extremely high RF noise that raised the local noise floor about 20 dB from channel 48 to channel 62. This interference appeared to be somewhat directional. Careful positioning of the antenna on the roof of this one-story house to minimize the noise (I was able to null it out) resulted in 14 DTV stations being received.

Only casualty was KNBC (too low a signal, and it got too dark to play with the antenna any more). On the other hand, KABC was added to the "steady" channels. (Turns out, the homeowner gets KNBC HD off cable anyway.)

Analog VHF reception was terrible at this location. Analog UHF wasn't much better. Only one analog UHF station came in moderately receivable off the same antenna. But 14 DTV channels were rock-steady and picture perfect.

chezpaul,

i dont think you can find the CM 7775 anywhere B&M. i think there are two places online you can get it. warren electronics and stark electronics. warren was out of stock a few weeks ago, but last i checked they had it again. i am about to order, but was also looking for B&M.

Cool thanks for the answer... I'm still wondering if the RS 1170 will do. But it looks like the noise is 8 dbs so I'll just try it and see. It's actually more fun not to get it right the first time. Makes me feel like I'm doing something.

The DTV guy is coming in tomorrow. I can't wait... I also pre ordered my HD Tivo.. I just can't watch TV without Tivo anymore. I don't see how one does it... ;-)

Originally posted by Jitter
I'm over by Aliso Creek and Moulton. Not having ABC sucks.... I'm gonna try
a higher gain preamp (CM7777) which has 26dB gain versus the 12dB from
the HDP269. My channels that I get are about 60% strength.

I have a 36db amp, the largest signal distribution amp that Wineguard makes, doesn't help much. Also have the most sensitive receiver, the LG LST-3510a. I got ABC for a day and then it went away. I'll try tweaking the antenna this weekend.


Big Dad - He lives in the triangle between Oso, Margarite and Filipe.

Wow so I put my RS 2160 UHF on the roof last Sunday. That was actually lots of fun. DTV man came in yesterday and said that was the best antenna I could put there. We powered up the new Samsung 360 that he brought me (not fedexed) and I got.. ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS and FOX plus other Spanish speaking stations.. These channels are all at 45%. PBS is the only on in HD all day and the picture is well HD.. nice picture. All other channels are good looking but not HD and with color lines moving through them. all this has been done without any setup of the antena. I just put it up there but haven't touched it since. ( I kind of generaly pointed in the 36 degreee angle). So I'm hoping I'll get KCal and UPN too. I also haven't been able to watch ABC, NBC etc when showing HD content.

My question is... Should I use a pre amp as the DTV guy told me it wouldn't do anything. I also was wondering if there is a place where one can find HD programming.. okay.. I'm sure I'll find that second one before someone answers in here... ;-)

thanks for all the help in choosing my antena.

This thread just keeps on going!
Having read the last few pages, I few general comments about the KABC and KCAL reception in south Orange County. I am in Lake Forest, above El Toro Road at Trabuco, about 47 miles from Mt. Wilson. There's an intervening ridgeline 1/2 mile from my house, so I don't have clear line of sight.

I have always gotten a strong KABC signal, perfectly clear picture, even with the RS 15-2160 and the lousy RS 15-1109 "wide band 26dB" pre-amp. (My 15-1109 had gain that dropped off steeply mid-UHF band). When I upgraded to a Channel Master CM7775, I added 4 "new" channels, all at the high end of the spectrum, including KCBS which I could never receive. When it's broadcasting, my KCAL signal is okay, but not as good as KABC.

I doubt that poor reception in Laguna Niguel is due to distance, it's probably terrain.

If terrain problems are not clear, there's a mapping program called Delorme "Topo USA" (about $75?) http://www.delorme.com/topousa/default.asp that can plot elevation for a straight line path (or any route for that matter). It's primary used for real time plotting on a notebook PC using a GPS input, or for route planning. A friend uses it for planning bike trips and he plotted these for my house. Actually edited screen captures, which explains the mouse "arrows"...

Overview map from my house to Mt. Wilson. Had to reduce rez, it's fuzzy...
http://www.momentoffame.com/snapshot.html?id=74028

Direct line to Mt. Wilson, vertical scale highly exaggerated...
http://www.momentoffame.com/snapshot.html?id=74029

Expanded detail for the first mile or so, showing higher terrain in between...
http://www.momentoffame.com/snapshot.html?id=74030

I posted these to Moment of Fame, so I'm sure they'll only work for a month or so. Warning - Occasionally MOF is sometimes slow to load.

It's probably not worth the cost of the software, if you only use it once, and it's certainly not needed if there's obvious terrain challenges.

Gary

Wow Gary, I'm amazed as well!

A few things that are buried in here somewhere:

Most of the problems people have are not gain related at all, even down here, 60 miles from Mt.Wilson. What causes 90% of the problems, I think, is multipath. This manifests itself as multiple images, or "ghosting" on an analog set, and gives digital receivers fits because it is difficult to figure out which signal is the one to lock onto. The reason why high gain amps and preamps don't really help is because they are too noisy. Digital receivers need clean signals, even if they are weak. The only two amps I've had good luck with are the RS 1171 cable distribution amp, which of course has been discontinued, and the CM 7775/7777 preamp series. The rated noise factor of these units is under .5 db, while most everything else sold by RS have NF of 3-5+ db.

For the same reasons, expensive, high gain antennas don't really work better unless they are also a lot more directional. In most cases, horizontally stacking two cheap antennas, like the lowly RS 2160s, will work far better than a $100 "long-range" model. I've used this exact setup, along with an 1171, for two years now and I can't remember the last time I had a dropout.

-- Gary

Gary, the same mantras have been repeated numerous times in this thread. It's just hard to pick them out with so many posts. Many "pilgrims" have come in with questions for a few weeks, then dropped out later when their problems were solved. You've probably been the mainstay throughout!

HINT -- If newbies are looking for answers, just look for Gary Goodrum's posts in the thread. He's conducted more experiments then every one else combined. I wish I had listened earlier than I did about the Channelmaster 7775 pre-amp. It was a quantum level improvement.

Gary: I'm still using the monster DAT-75. All my channels have typical signal levels in the range of 80 to 95, as indicated on my Dish 6000 box. UPN sometimes is usually the weakest, with signal levels in the low 80s, sometimes going as low as 65.

I've been meaning to move the antenna toward the back of the house to make it less obvious. Occasionally I'll get a drop out on KCBS-HD even with consistent signal strength over 90. I suspect multipath with the high signal level, and I suspect some fine tuning on mounting location will make the signal consistent. With one dropout every few hours, the disturbance has been acceptable. I don't have dropouts on any other channels.

If I get ambitious, I may see if stacked RS 15-2160s works as well as the DAT-75. And I wouldn't mind having a stealthier antenna installation (and selling "King Kong".) If I was doing it all over again, dual 15-2160s would be the first thing I'd try, if a single 15-2160 proved to be inadequate.

In my case, the preamp was an essential component, probably due to the terrain blocking. Some channels are completely absent when the pra-amp is removed. It's surprising that Radio Shack hasn't picked up on the fact that their pre-amps just don't hack it. A good product design would be a windfall opportunity for them.

Gary

I'm amazed about RS's ability to stop production on the only items that seem to really work with digital! The don't offer the 1171 anymore and it is the only amp in their catalog that works! There is some hope, however, because I notice that they've brought back the venerable double bow-tie unit, and also they brought back the Powered Indoor model I still use (15-1260?). In both cases, they were assigned new part numbers and the only apparent difference is that the boxes for both now say "HDTV compatible", and, of course, they cost more! Anyway, maybe we'll see a newly annotated 1171! I'd like to see a preamp version, like the 7775.

-- Gary

Maybe this question could be answered.
Since the DTV HD install, I have 2 greenish, redish lines moving from the middle of my screen to the top of my screen. Very faint but present. On all TV channels (OTA and DTV) and on all outputs (meaning Tivo, DVD, VHS, BellVu Express Sat.) from the amp (Denon 3803). If I bypass the amp and watch the direct output from my T360, the lines are still there so it's not the amp distribution.

It must be some noise from somewhere... Has anyone had this problem before ?

Oh and I ordered my CM 7775 today...

check your display. turn the display on with no audio/video signal coming in. are the lines still there? hope its not your display. is the display not getting clean power source? try using a UPS and hopefully the noise will be gone.

I need to add that this was not happening before the DTV guy came in two days ago. I never had those lines there. Could it be the grounding of my satellite dish ? It never was grounded before and he took the ground wire from my Comcast cable box. This morning the lines were till there but even fainter... Could this be related to an electricity usage in the neighborhood ?... Looks like it to me.

I haven't tried the TV on it's own but I don't know how to do that (It's a plasma so I get a black screen). What I would need to do is unhook all DTV boxes and watch a DVD again I guess.

Ooops - accidentally started a new thread when I meant to post here. In any event, here is my message:

South Laguna Beach
First time poster and soon-to-be HD system purchaser. Reading this forum has been informative (though a bit dizzying) - thank you all so much. Unfortunately, I have yet to see anyone post regarding antenna set-ups in Laguna. I live in far south Laguna Beach (just off PCH by the Hospital, for those familiar with the area). The area is pretty much ringed by hills on the near north and northwest sides, so I am wondering if anyone has had any luck setting up an antenna for the LA stations or, if necessary, the Sd stations. (ps - there is no way my wife would let me set up an enormous contraption on the roof, either - she'll indulge my gadget fetish to a point, but turning the house into a porcupine would be a non-starter). Thoughts? Thanks in advance.

Originally posted by chezpaul
I need to add that this was not happening before the DTV guy came in two days ago. I never had those lines there. Could it be the grounding of my satellite dish ? It never was grounded before and he took the ground wire from my Comcast cable box. This morning the lines were till there but even fainter... Could this be related to an electricity usage in the neighborhood ?... Looks like it to me.

I haven't tried the TV on it's own but I don't know how to do that (It's a plasma so I get a black screen). What I would need to do is unhook all DTV boxes and watch a DVD again I guess.

It is most likely a ground loop. Your plasma has a 3 pronged power plug. We have been running into quite a few ground loop issues with plasma and the like. If you have cable TV and satellite the first thing to do is disconnect the cable totally from your system and see if the problem goes away. If it does you can buy a simple isolator for the cable. If it does not try temporarily bypassing the ground on the plasma's power plug. If that solves the problem then you have to find the low voltage source of the loop. It can by a tricky issue. Good luck

It was a ground loop. I bypassed the ground on my TV and all is fine... So now, I either leave it that way or I find out where it comes from... Also today I'm climbing on the roof to try and get a better signal as I've never touched my antenna yet. I just put it up in a vague direction and I got 45% on all channels.

The only channel I haven't yet seen is UPN.

To both Gary's... Do I still need a CM7775 if I'm already geting almost all channels with little drop outs. ? Can it only make it better or could I goof all this up ?

Thanks all for the knowledge once again.

Chezpaul, first of all on the vertical line issue...
The fact that it appears as a static line within the video frame means it was synchronous with the AC line frequency, 60Hz. A hint that suggests a grounding problem. You could try defining your AV amp or satellite receiver as the central grounding point, and connect all chassis grounds to that device in a star-like configuration. Then ground only that box to the AC plug and float the other boxes with 2-wire adapters. I hate suggesting this because it defeats the safety aspects of having 3-wire plugs on all the boxes, but sometimes this works best from a noise standpoint. The "star ground" eliminates ground loops between boxes.

It's hard to know whether 45% is good or bad since the signal level scales for the various boxes are all arbitrary. My gut feel is that 45% is probably low. The tendency is to be forgiving when you get any success at all, but after a while you'll probably be dissatisfied. For the low cost, I'd try the preamp to boost your signal levels across the board.

Cjames, living in South Laguna, I suspect you'll be terrain-challenged for receiving L.A. stations from Mount Wilson. The coastal range might be quite a barrier. You may have a clear shot at receiving the San Diego stations because of the way the coastline follows an arc between Laguna and San Diego. The distance won't be significantly different, and a straight shot beats an over-the-hill shot, for sure!

The primary benefit of HD is viewing the major network series shows and special events, since the local news, etc (and many secondary shows) are still carried only in SD. So you could watch the local L.A. shows in SD and network shows from San Diego in HD.

I hate to say it, but your best bet for local HD coverage might be cable, as even Dish and DirecTV don't have all the network HD feeds. They are concentrating on HD premium channels that they can charge more for. Dish for example carries only KCBS-HD and I think they still charge $1.50/month for that one station.

It would be worthwhile to check with some of the local specialty high end video stores, and ask if they've done any installations in Laguna. There's one such store on Lake Forest, just south of the 5. I think it's called "Genesis Audio/Video".

cjames,

I am in north Laguna. With a small Silver Sensor antenna, I get strong reception on the San Diego HD stations. You should be able to as well. I can't get the LA stations at all.

That's wierd.. I went on the roof today to try to get a better signal strenghs as I'm 45% on every channel. well guess what.. Wherever I turn my antenna, I get 45%.. Wierd... So 45% it is... the image is fine and no drop outs so I'll have to live with it. I'll check back next week when I get my CM 7775.

Can someone please answer this?
Should I be geting UPN (66) 13.1 if I'm geting all the other channels?
I know they only have 2 HD shows... Jake 2.0 and Enterprise but I should be geting it in SD the rest of the time right ?
So what should I do to get it ? just move the antenna around ? It should be coming from the same place as the other stations right ?

(Still no CM7775) (Damn that free shipping sure takes long....)

chezpaul -- 13/66 has always been the weakest for me, even with an amp. I think you'll see an improvement across the board with the 7775.

cjames -- My mother's house is in Monarch Beach, just south of the Ritz-Carlton. From there I can get all the SD stations and none of the LA stations. I think it just depends on how high up you are. Some have had good luck from the developments that overlook the Dana Point harbor, which seems to confirm, as Gary pointed out, that the coastal terrain is going to be a problem for you.

-- Gary

City of Placentia...at the intersection of the 57 and 91 Fwys.

Last week I picked up the Silver Sensor at BB and I get channels 2; 4; 7; 11 HD with black side bars, 28 HD that fills the screen, 13 is SD and has black side bars, 9 I can't get and 5 is SD and fills the screen (I have a Mit. 65" 16x9 TV).

The one program that advertises that it's HD wide screen but comes only in SD wide screen is "ENTERPRISE"...I wonder why and who is getting it in HD??? :D

KCOP-DT does not pass any HD.

i thought enterprise was in hd....

Well, I haven't checked in the past few weeks. Prior to that, KCOP-DT wasn't doing any HD. Maybe they've started...

Enterprise is in HD for sure.. I checked on multiple sites for the info. It even says in HD where available at the beginning of the show. Maybe KCOP in LA doesn't send it in HD ? Could that be possible..
I guess I'll have to wait for my amp.

It's so wierd.. I can twist and turn my antenna in every direction and I still get 45% strenght when panning across 120 degres...

They must, it sez right on the screen "High Definition Widescreen Zenith" or pretty close to that.

Originally posted by chezpaul
Enterprise is in HD for sure.
Yes, it is.

Maybe KCOP in LA doesn't send it in HD ?
Isn't that what I said?

Originally posted by Fletch
Yes, it is.


Isn't that what I said?



Yes it is but Enterprised started in HD in November 2003 so maybe U haven't checked since then ?
I was making the asumption.

i believe enterprise is the only program in HD on UPN so even though i cant get my Zenith SS to receive it, its no biggie, but laker games on the other hand.... waiting to get my CM 7775....

ratbrain,

By getting the CM 7775, do you think you'll be able to get channel 13 in HD?

I know that some of my OTA HD channels look as though they just need to be tweeked to get them to look perfect...some of them have alot of EE.

Would the CM 7775 make all the OTA channels (HD/SD) picture perfect? :D

im hoping it will. from the advice of others on this forum, the CM 7775 should help a bit. but if enterprise is canceled, i guess there is no point in trying to get UPN reception as there wont be any more HD programming. im still hoping that kcal starts broadcasting the laker games in true hd so im hoping the CM can help me receive KCAL.

Has anyone heard anything about how the Winegard SquareShooter (SS-1000) performs in South Orange county. I believe I live very close to GaryJC, just maybe a bit higher up the ridge (off of Lake Forest Blvd, one block from Dimension). I currently have DirecTV all set up to receive their HD offerings with a Triple LNB already installed. I am a newbie and interested in add OTA HD since DirecTV doesn't include all of the majors, NBC, FOX, etc. I know they are planning on adding them, but when... It appears this antenna would be a good fit since it can be installed on top of the satellite dish, then added to the current feed from the dish with a diplexar. Am I missing something here?

I think it is great that we are finally seeing some new antenna designs. This is suppose to be a pretty directional antenna, but I'm not so sure. The beamwidth is about 60 degrees for most channels, which isn't all that great when compared to even simple Yagi models. Also, although I've said gain isn't critical, this one is low enough that an amp is definitely going to be required, IMO. Something like the CM 7775. What I haven't tried is connecting the 7775 through a diplexer. The power needs to travel back up the cable to the amplifier from the power supply, which is farther down the line, wherever power is available.

Nonetheless, I'm intrigued by the clean design and it would be great if it works!

-- Gary

Went on the roof tonight.. got my CM 7775... instaled it.. and.... NOTHING....
i'm geting the same channels execpt now 7.1 and 28.1 are not strong enough to come in at all times... Otherwise my signal strenght is still at 45% for all channels.. This is annoying... very... I want to get UPN.. I think I might try the shooter antenna.... Argh... !!!!

sorry to hear that the CM didnt help. i just got mine but havent had the time to mess with it. ill post my results as well soon.

Chez,

The best price I've found for it is $75 on e-bay. I'd love for you to be the guinea pig. Let me know how it goes.

I asked about the pre-amp on another thread and was depressed and more confused with the response I recieved. Sorry, I don't know how to add the link to that thread. Its specifically on the SquareShooter in HDTV Hardware. Anyway, I am almost to the point of throwing my hands up and see how much a professional would charge. My head is spinning ...

Does anyone have any thoughts about where I could go locally to get some good advice?

It is tough because the amp only amplifies what it can get. A bad signal can not be made better through aplification. What you would need is a better line of sight by elevating it (put it on the chimany or a tall roof vent) or somecases it's just not possible. If LA is not possible try San Diego, even though it's further, their ABC station transmits at twice the power of the LA transmitter. I got a Silver Sensor in the mail yesterday so I'll experiment with San Diego this weekend.

The CM 7775 goes for 54$ from this web site... It's on page one or two of this thread...
I just ordered a Wineguard Square Shooter.. We'll see...

Line of site looks good to me.. Nothing in front of me ... (appart from the Culver City mountain)
hahah... ;-)

Well I got the $99 deal from D* today and I must say the HD stations are amazing. Watching basketball today in HD had me wondering why I waited so long.

We did run into a problem with the OTA antenna they brought as part of the package. It is a Winegard Sensar GS model. I'm up on the hill in the Las Flores area with an unobstructed view to the Saddleback mountains and a fairly clear shot to LA. The installer told me that the antenna only has a radius of about 45 miles. I'm about 65 miles to Mt. Wilson and about 70 miles to Mt Soledad in San Diego.

Any suggestions on what antenna I should get and how much I should pay for it? My neighbor says he picked up a antenna for about $30 from Frys and he gets HD fine.

Man... that's what this whole thread is about.. !!! What kind of antenna to get.. It's all over this thread... Just read a little... Start at page one too.

my results are in. set up my CM 7775 and i dont think its made a difference. part of me wants to believe its making the channels i already received a little bit stronger. but truthfully, i dont think its made a difference. from where my house is (Sherman Oaks) i have a clear line of sight to MT Wilson and i with or without the CM, i still dont get local KCAL or UPN.... @#$$^%#$ really frustrated now. i think i will be content w/ my silver sensor until i now Laker games are broadcast in true HD before trying more extreme measures to receive it.

Has anyone in West San Fernando Valley had any experience with the Winegard sensar2. I believe this is the OTA antenna that you get with the D* HD install.
Zipcode 91367,
Thanks,
dlt

KCOP-DT still has no HD. Besides Enterprise (and the cancelled Jake 2.0) they (UPN nationally) show some Friday night movies in HD.

For those of you not seeing KCOP-DTand KCAL-DT, are you aware that their PSIP data is wrong? Those stations aren't being mapped to their VHF counterparts. Try tuning in 43-1 and 66-1. Also, try this during prime time, not in the middle of the day.

I'm in north O.C. and have no problem getting anything from LA.

Woohoo, I'm getting the 3 ABC channels. Now there's not channel I'm not getting. I did some antenna tweaking and that helped. They do have drop outs now and then but it's a start anyway. The secret to antennas is simple, get the biggest antenna made and stick it on the biggest mast possible and use the largest amp with the thickest wire. Mine's the Winegard 13' HD model with their 36db distribution amp. I was also able to get San Diego 25 (ABC) for a short amount of time but then I lost it never to be found again.

A high-gain amp won't help a bit, if it isn't specifically very low-noise (< 1.0 dB...). I would suspect that your reception would be better without the 36dB amp. You are probably overdriving the receiver.

Also, the 13-foot Winegard model is mostly for VHF. The digital stations in LA (and SD...) are all in the UHF band. There are much better solutions.

-- Gary

Do you think the Winegard squareshooter would be better? How 'bout he Rat Shack uhf antenna people speak of?

The Squareshooter might be worth a try, but I think it I'd try the cheaper RS 2160 and a pre-amp first. The SS has good front-to-back rejection, which is great when you are in a strong signal area, and are trying to receive a bounced reflection. That is different, however, than having a narrow beamwidth and being very directional, which is what we need down here. I have been using two 2160s in a horizontal stack for a couple of years now and I can't remember the last time I had a dropout. I'm using a Radio Shack 1171 cable amp (they don't sell it anymore but some stores may still have one...) with this setup, but that's primarily because I'm splitting the signal for several receivers.

-- Gary

I'll have to try the RS 2160's, cheap enough to test. Are they are horizontally stacked directly one on top of the other? What's the spacing? Also are they offset, one ahead of the other or even?

I checked the specs on the Squareshooter but it's nowhere near the performance specs for UHF channels of my Winegard HD7082P so I don't think that would work. It is a very nice looking antenna though, sort of a square version of the dish.

No, horizontally stacked means they are in the same horizontal plane. They are spaced at 42" between centers. I don't remeber exactly but I think this represents a quarterwave length for channel 53 (KABC), which is in the middle of the band for LA stations. Here's some pics:


http://www.tppacks.com/photos/Dual%202160s-1.jpg


http://www.tppacks.com/photos/Dual%202160s-2.jpg


http://www.tppacks.com/photos/Dual%202160s-2.jpg


This was all contructed using off-the-shelf PVC components commonly available at Lowes or Home Depot. You need to use two equal length leads and connect them into a low-loss splitter, turned around.

Here's some test data I did on this setup, using a Hughes E86:

http://www.tppacks.com/photos/Dual%202160s-Test%20Data.jpg

As you can see, you really don't need the amp with this setup but it will reduce the dropouts, in the long run.

-- Gary

Pretty cool Gary. Did you take any data on the difference between a single 2160 vs. the dual 2160s?

I'm sure I probably did, but I can't find the actual data. It's probably buried in this thread, back about 20 pages!

As I recall, a single 2160 performed almost identical, in my situation, to a CM 4221 4-bay. Here (again...) is some of the data from these tests I did about 18 months ago:


http://www.tppacks.com/photos/Test%20Data-1.JPG


With the E86, the receiver would lock onto a signal above 37. I used a 4228/7775 combo for quite awhile, until unusually strong winds blew it down. Although the signal was very strong, I would still get almost nightly dropouts. I now know the reason is that, while this antenna has high gain, it's not all that directional. Because of this, I started looking at other options and ended up with the dual 2160s.

Another interesting point is that one of the best performing antennas is the RS 15-1862 "Amplified Indoor Antenna". It has a built-in low-noise amplifier and works amazingly well. To this day, I'm still using one of these indoors, in a loft where it "looks" out a 3x15 foot window/skylight in the living room, 20 feet away. It is connected to an HDV-420 and a MyHD card in a PC, and it provides dropout-free reception. This still amazes me! Radio Shack discontinued it (of course!) but it has now been re-released/re-badged as model 15-1880 see it here... (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D1880). All I can see that they did was to change the base to white, and then say it is HDTV-compatible! Amazing. One thing I found, however, is that it works a lot better if you turn the loops 90 degrees, so they are oriented vertically.

At some point, I finally got an HD200 and re-did some of the tests. The HD200 has a bar graph-type of display with three sections, labeled "Bad", "Normal" and "Good". It will lock onto anything in the Normal and Good sections. Here's some of the data:


http://www.tppacks.com/photos/Test-1862x1.JPG


http://www.tppacks.com/photos/Test-SSx1+1171.jpg


http://www.tppacks.com/photos/Test-2160x2+1171.JPG


Since I had such good luck with stacking the 2160s, I decided to try and see if some combo of Silver Sensars would work better:


http://www.tppacks.com/photos/Dual%20SS.jpg


http://www.tppacks.com/photos/Quad%20SS.jpg


http://www.tppacks.com/photos/Dual%20SS-1.jpg


The only configuration that showed a marked improvement is the two vertically stacked units, angled at 45-degrees, relative to the source. Here's the numbers:


http://www.tppacks.com/photos/Test-SSx2+1171.JPG


This has ended up working so well that I've actually helped at least 10 neighbors and friends mount this setup under eaves, on top of deck railings and attached to DirecTV mounts. All but one have had great luck. In the one case where it didn't work well, it turns out we had a bad cable.


-- Gary

Cool, thanks. I get great LA reception with a single 2160 in my attic. I'm trying to find a way to get SD while still leaving the antenna in the attic. So far no luck. I should have a pretty clear line-of-sight over the water, but it's 90 miles away. I may try the stacked 2160 configuration just to see what happens.

Hey Gary, what's the (powered?)box U got right after your combiner ? (ohhh.. must be the RS7717 pre amp)(Whatever is that pre am that RS discontinued).

Yes, it's the 1171. It comes with a 12V power adapter.

-- Gary

GGoodrum,

that was an awesome post! wow, now im really tempted to try this multi silver sensor setup you have going.....

I tried the horizontally stacked RS 15-2160's and it was a complete bust. ABC had zero signal strength, FOX had very weak but viewable. Put a small RS 24db amp and FOX went from weak to middle of the range and ABC went from zero to very weak (no picture at all). GGoodrum, you are blessed with a better view of Mt. Wilson than I am because I have to depend on my Winegard HS-7082P and 36DB Winegard amp, pricey and large pieces of equipment compared to the $22 RS and SS antenna's. So until ABC kicks up the juice on their transmitter I'm going to stick to a real (and manly) antenna, not these $20 baby antennas. You can't compare, just the UHF components on my Winegard, they are at least twice as large as the 2160 so anyone can see that it's not going to be better, heck, not even close.

So what's the next step, do I get two 13' antenna's? Larger amp? Build a 20' tower, suffer with analog ABC?

I tried two horizontally stacked RS 15-2160s about a year ago and it was a bust for me too.

Of everything I've tried the Channel Master 4248 with Channel Master amp has worked by far the best for me in the multipath place I live.

Like in real estate, location is probably the biggest factor in reception performance. What works great in one place won't necessarily have the same performance in another, even if they are relatively close in distance. In my area, directionability is far more important than gain. The 2160s by themselves have okay directionability and so-so gain. Horizontally stacking them makes the setup very directional. The CM 4248 and the similar Winegard models are very directional and have relatively high gain. The monsterous 7082's UHF portion is basically the same as the much smaller UHF-only 9085.

-- Gary

I've had good success with a pair of horizontally-stacked 2160s, driving a 7775. I am the wrong side of the hill in Aliso Viejo and have to point up and over its peak, but I can pull all the LA stations. Of course, I get dropouts with ABC but in my case I just pull the San Diego ABC station in using an indoor Silver Sensor (don't you just love those antennas!).

Andy.

Wow... I put up a Square Shooter and voilà !!!! UPN there you are... ;-)
I never thought I would get it. Strangely enough, all my channels are still at 45%.. I really don't get it. I have the pre amp 7775 inline too. i've tried moving the antenna in all directions and this thing just stays at 45%... Maybe once I get my HD Tivo things will be different. Who knows.

Gary, would it make a difference that my 7775 is 10 coaxial feet away from my antenna. Meaning it's not plugged in right at the antenna but further down, so that I have:
Antenna, 10 feet of coax, Pre amp part1, 50 feet of coax, pre amp part two, reciever...

Oh and another thing... my UPN is on channel 66 and not 13... I wonder if Tivo will like that ?

Originally posted by chezpaul
Strangely enough, all my channels are still at 45%..
You must be using a Samsung TS360. This is known bug in its firmware.
Oh and another thing... my UPN is on channel 66 and not 13... I wonder if Tivo will like that ? If using a TS360, tell it your zip code and it will fix that.

chezpaul,

About where are you located. I too have been looking into the squareshooter and was wondering if your location is about like mine. Also, did you add a preamp to your configuration?

Originally posted by SRYork
chezpaul,

About where are you located. I too have been looking into the squareshooter and was wondering if your location is about like mine. Also, did you add a preamp to your configuration?

I'm in Culver City and yes I have a pre amp 7775 CM

finally good news to report! i have 500ft of rg6 and made a cable approx 50 ft. ran the silver sensor outside and viola! 43 and 66 come in! with the CM 7775 hooked up! so i guess it is location of the antenna that is the all important factor.... i set the antenna on the roof with the rg6 running back into the house into the CM 7775 and the zenith 420. now i must think of what to do when laker games will be broadcast in true hd.....