Los Angeles, CA - OTA [Text View] - Page 21

TheKing75

06-13-09, 07:52 AM

I'm in Orange, CA.

I've been fiddling around with antenna since midnight, basically just trying to get as many signals as I can.

At current count, I'm getting 66 digital channels, and 9 Analog. 2,4,5 and 22 are still on, showing the DTV instructions over and over. Then I have 27, 33, 45, 67 and 69, which must all be LP stations.

As for digital, I'm having the same problems as many others are in here. It took hours, but I finally got my scanner to acknowledge that 11.1 exists, but as of yet I have no signal on it. But getting the channel at all was a challenge. 13.1 comes in very weak, but it does at least come in. 9.1 is sometimes not recognized, but it's coming in pretty good. 7.1, 7.2 & 7.3 have actually been stronger since the switch. I always had to fiddle with the antenna to get them before, now they're perfect.

Right now I don't have 34.1, as it didn't get picked up in the last scan, but have just about everything else.

I'm using a set of Philips powered Rabbit Ears for this, I'm sure with something more powerful or better located I'd have no problems. But still, I'd like to get everything working.

VenturaTVViewer

06-13-09, 09:23 AM

Getting KNBC 4 711KW, KPXN 1000KW, and KAZA 350KW and subchannels. Will be trying to move the antenna slightly to see what happens.

Lost KABC7.

What a day yesterday for television history. One for the recordbooks.

HarrisonS

06-13-09, 10:46 AM

I have just finished a re-scan to pick up the stragglers, KTTV, KCOP and KMEX. All are coming in fine here and appear very stable. This is the first time in years that I have been even able to get KCOP-DT at all, and KTTV used to break up constantly on ch 65. Now, finally it is solid and stable.

Cokeswigga

06-13-09, 10:53 AM

Temecula, CA Post transition reception Report:

Station Signal Strengh Signal to Noise Ratio
2.1 98 31
4.1 93 31
5.1 87 31
7.1 98 29
9.1 98 30
11.1 98 31
13.1 71 27

ercjncpr

06-13-09, 10:55 AM

Just did a rescan this morning. Lake Forest. Indoor Radio Shack antenna model 15-1892, mounted around 9ft above the floor. TV Fool reference:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d663d20eeca8603

I am not getting KTTV, KTBN and KLCS. All others are perfect

holl_ands

06-13-09, 10:58 AM

holl_ands

06-13-09, 11:00 AM

Temecula, CA Post transition reception Report:

Station Signal Strengh Signal to Noise Ratio
2.1 98 31
4.1 93 31
5.1 87 31
7.1 98 29
9.1 98 30
11.1 98 31
13.1 71 27

Did you receive any others??? What part of Temecula? Antenna/Preamp/Location?

desertdude1

06-13-09, 11:05 AM

I attempted to re-program my JVC television to tune analog channel 3 only, since that's all I need anymore. Somehow, I enabled the auto tuner and it found numerous analog stations that I didn't know existed. What confuses me is the channel numbers my TV is calling them by, except for 2-6, of course:

2, 4, 5 have the night lights

6 spanish programming
73 night light (different from 2, 4, 5)
78 city council meeting of some sort
84 science program for kids (in both English and Spanish)
101 infomercials
113 spanish programming
123 Home Shopping Network

combres

06-13-09, 11:12 AM

I live in santa monica, 90405 . I was getting 28.1 (kcet) and 2.1 (kcbs) and 7.1 (kabc) perfectly before the switch. After the switch, I am getting practically 0 signal on these stations. I get many others that are in the same direction as these above channels, knbc, klcs.

Are these going to come back online in the next few days, or do I have to figure out a different antenna?

Weird how I would get these channels in HD and now the switch happens and they are gone... any ideas?

HarrisonS

06-13-09, 11:17 AM

I'm in Orange, CA.

I've been fiddling around with antenna since midnight, basically just trying to get as many signals as I can.

At current count, I'm getting 66 digital channels, and 9 Analog. 2,4,5 and 22 are still on, showing the DTV instructions over and over. Then I have 27, 33, 45, 67 and 69, which must all be LP stations...

I was also getting 66 or 67 digital stations on my Samsung STB. I forgot to check the number of stations on the Pioneer plasma when I rescanned it this morning, but it lumps the analog stations with the digital in the total, anyway. You are right; there are still quite a few analog stations still on the air. I had assumed that the FCC would have required cessation of all analog transmissions by midnight last night, but obviously I was wrong.

After all of the fanfare last night, it is really odd that KTLA analog is back on the air! There are several more analog stations still on, for example 25, 45 and 63. On ch 63, KBEH is still carrying an announcement stating that KBEH will be ceasing analog transmission on June 12! I guess you really have to take everything the stations say with a grain of salt!

ProjectSHO89

06-13-09, 11:18 AM

HarrisonS

06-13-09, 11:31 AM

A reminder, the current DTV Transition was only REQUIRED for FULL POWER stations.
Low Power stations were NOT REQUIRED to take ANY actions, such as vacating Ch52
and above, although many of them have chosen to be a part of the DTV Transition
(and may accept a "vacate the premises" incentive from new 700 MHz Band users).

FCC may address a firm transition date for Low Power stations in upcoming preceedings....

Thanks for the explanation! Presumably then, stations like KCBS, KNBC, KTLA and KBEH are only running at low power now. Also, some stations like chs 25 and 27 may be in Mexico and thus not affected by the FCC rules, as also is the case with ch 6.

Trip in VA

06-13-09, 11:31 AM

Trip in VA

06-13-09, 11:33 AM

I can see something on 50, but no lock. (6-7dB)

KNLA-LD.

- Trip

HarrisonS

06-13-09, 11:34 AM

Done_Deal

06-13-09, 11:35 AM

Santa Monica 90403
Tivax T9 converter - DTA-5000 smart antenna

Most channels have a SNR of 27 or above

Weakest channels
channel / SNR
11-1 / 24
13-1 / 18
20-1 / 15
24-1 / 18

combres

06-13-09, 11:35 AM

phillips sdv2740 ... why would these work before and not after the switch?

are these low power stations?

desertdude1

06-13-09, 11:57 AM

Thanks for the help everyone. My television was indeed set to cable, hence the strange channel numbers.

tivoscool

06-13-09, 12:34 PM

I may have determined the issue picking up the channel 18 sub channels. They come in great on my TV, I just can't get them to come in on my DirecTV HD-DVR. I'm wondering if it's programmed to look for these channels somewhere specific and the software needs an update now that it has changed.
joekun, I have a DirecTV HD DVR (HR20-700). Last night, with a silver sensor (and amplifier), I wasn't gettting KSCI. I switched to a larger outdoor antenna (still with amplifier), and the DVR is picking up KSCI.

retiredengineer

06-13-09, 12:41 PM

According to the DirecTV forum, you have to completely clear the channel memory before you do a rescan. Hope that works for you.

tivoscool

06-13-09, 12:46 PM

According to the DirecTV forum, you have to completely clear the channel memory before you do a rescan. Hope that works for you.
Oh yeah, I did that too. With the SS, I still couldn't pick up 18. With the big antenna, I'm getting about a 30-40% signal strength. I'm gonna have to experiment with the location. I'm behind some hills, so getting a strong signal isn't easy, but I like watching 18.2.

Cokeswigga

06-13-09, 01:09 PM

Did you receive any others??? What part of Temecula? Antenna/Preamp/Location?

I have a bunch.. theses were the important ones.
According to my scan results, I am getting 11 analog and 71 digital channels

I will repost all channels later today.

I live in the redhawk area of temecula and I have a winegard HD8080 with a winegard preamp AP-8700.

I live on the top of a small hill, and my antenna is set up about 10' above the highest point of my house, which I estimate the antenna sits about 30-50' above the ground level.

The only reason I was using a pre-amp was because I have a splitter that feeds to 2 Dish receivers, 1 TV, and 1 stereo. Without the pre-amp I would loose KABC (Prior to conversion) as this was the weakest station.

Later today, I will be disconnecting the pre-amp to see what happens.

SD73

06-13-09, 01:12 PM

jeff2631

06-13-09, 01:16 PM

You need a VHF 7-13 antenna since the 91XG is for UHF. Then join them with the UVSJ.

SD73

06-13-09, 01:20 PM

Jeff, my receiver is just a digital. I should have noted I've been watching them on the 7.1 - 13.1 equivalents.

jeff2631

06-13-09, 01:25 PM

7.1 was on UHF 53 but is now on VHF 7
9.1 was on UHF 43 but is now on VHF 9
11.1 was on UHF 65 but is now on VHF 11
13.1 was on UHF 66 but is now on VHF 13

minmaster

06-13-09, 01:25 PM

what is the best way to re-acquire reception to lost channels on a vista media center setup? my dad lost 7.1, 11.1, and some other channels yesterday and he can't figure out how to get them back. he doesn't have TV pack so he can't really scan for channels. this is becoming a big headache. however, i have TV pack but doing a scan still doesn't get me those missing channels. do we have to wait for microsoft to update the guide/channel table? what about people without TV pack?

bgooch

06-13-09, 01:30 PM

87-XLT

06-13-09, 01:40 PM

I'm okay on most my channels, but 7-13 have lost a considerable amount of strength. Down from say around 90 percent to about 25-30. This is with a decent antenna (91XG). I've done a complete rescan and didn't improve strength at all. Any thoughts on just giving it more time to see if the strength improves or do we think it's time for repositioning? I'm out in Rancho Cucamonga.

You need to add a Ya-1713. The 91 XG does'nt like upper VHF.

I'm near Temecula & have these two antennaes plugged into my CM-7777 pre amp.

Works great.

Channel 7-13 are the only ones to revert back to VHF.

SD73

06-13-09, 01:43 PM

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the help!

HarrisonS

06-13-09, 01:44 PM

I need a vhf antenna in Echo Park also. 7-13 are lost. I had the uhf antenna installed before they announced some of the stations would reclaim their vhf frequencies once analog signals went dark:(. All uhf come in fine. TiVo updated their channel mapping last night so guide info is back to normal.

I would especially recommend getting the Winegard YA-1713 VHF antenna. It covers chs. 7-13 only and so is especially well suited for this, since it is so specialized. Originally, I had a UHF-only setup also, and I added one of these prior to the changeover yesterday, and it works very well. You can get these at Electronic City in Burbank, though you might have to have them order it for you.

narkspud

06-13-09, 01:58 PM

phillips sdv2740 ... why would these work before and not after the switch?

are these low power stations?

No ... but they all changed their actual channel assignments yesterday. Did you try rescanning?

VenturaTVViewer

06-13-09, 03:05 PM

Maybe some discussion about VHF Antennas. Why some work in some areas, why others work in longer distances, and why others work in much longer distances. Seems like we need to learn about VHF.

SD73

06-13-09, 03:11 PM

Just an FYI for others going through the same thing, I dug out an old Channel Vision Amplified Cable Splitter CVT-2/8PIA-II from my old box of goodies, and that did the trick. I now get everything from 7-13. The signal is weaker than before the change, but still strong enough for signals without drop-outs.

HarrisonS

06-13-09, 03:21 PM

Maybe some discussion about VHF Antennas. Why some work in some areas, why others work in longer distances, and why others work in much longer distances. Seems like we need to learn about VHF.

Good point! Perhaps about the best choice in more challenging situations is the Winegard YA-1713 VHF antenna. Since it covers only chs. 7-13, it is specialized, and has high perfomance across the high VHF band. Some also like the Channel Master 4228 in less challenging situations. It is a UHF antenna that also covers the high VHF channels.

narkspud

06-13-09, 03:28 PM

Maybe some discussion about VHF Antennas. Why some work in some areas, why others work in longer distances, and why others work in much longer distances. Seems like we need to learn about VHF.

To get optimal reception of VHF, you need a VHF antenna (duh).

If your VHF signals are strong enough, you might be able to get away with using an antenna that isn't tuned for VHF, just cause the signal is strong enough to overcome the inefficiency. But if you're further away, a VHF antenna will be required.

If the transmitter is 2 blocks away, a coat hanger should do it. :D

sandog

06-13-09, 03:29 PM

VHF stations are more susceptible to impulse noise. This is part of the reason many broadcasters nationwide opted to leave the low VHF channels. To overcome some those causes more amplification and/or more power from the transmitter is needed. Of course, antenna placement is also important.
http://www.mstv.org/docs/techinfo.pdf

henhowc

06-13-09, 03:40 PM

Cokeswigga

06-13-09, 03:44 PM

Full Temecula Reception Report:
Winegard HD-8200 with AP-8700 Preamp

Digital Channel - Signal Strength - S/N - IF-AGC%

02.1 - 98 - 32 - 32
04.1 - 93 - 32 - 31
05.1 - 87 - 30 - 30
07.1 - 93 - 31 - 29
08.1 - 32 - 30 - 47
09.1 - 98 - 32 - 29
11.1 - 98 - 32 - 31
13.1 - 71 - 28 - 32
18.1 - 87 - 29 - 32
22.1 - 82 - 30 - 35
24.1 - 71 - 27 - 44
28.1 - 93 - 31 - 42
30.1 - 93 - 32 - 30
34.1 - 82 - 30 - 36
44.1 - 82 - 29 - 43
46.1 - 98 - 32 - 41
50.1 - 87 - 29 - 35
52.1 - 82 - 30 - 40
54.1 - 82 - 29 - 36
56.1 - 82 - 29 - 35
57.1 - 87 - 30 - 41
58.1 - 82 - 29 - 39
62.1 - 98 - 31 - 39

Analog signals still available
2
4
5
6
12
22
25
33
57
67

sandog

06-13-09, 03:48 PM

So why the switch back to VHF for 7-13? Seems like it just made things worse for a lot of us who aren't close to the towers. Having to use my bunny ears just seems like a step backwards.

Look at the table of allocations. LA is full. Plus a lot of people early on bought UHF only antennas without realizing that they might not perform well for VHF reception. The PSIP is what confuses a lot of people. "I used to received KABC but now I don't"

narkspud

06-13-09, 03:50 PM

I can get 7.1, 9.1 with my bunny ears engaged but the signal strength is very low and it pretty much ends up being unwatchable. Still can't get 11.1 or 13.1.

So why the switch back to VHF for 7-13? Seems like it just made things worse for a lot of us who aren't close to the towers. Having to use my bunny ears just seems like a step backwards.

Don't mind me I'm a noob :)

Part of the transition was the repurposing of channels 52 and up for digital communications. Once that happens, there aren't enough channels available to keep everybody on UHF.

jmonier

06-13-09, 04:43 PM

phildaant

06-13-09, 05:01 PM

Analog signals still available
2
4
5
6
12
22
25
33
57
67I noticed 2, 4, and 5 are too but they're doing DTV infocommercials all day? For how long? I thought they were going away forever! Sheesh.

I haven't rescanned with my PC's HDTV tuners and connected my converter boxes yet to old CRT TV yet.

narkspud

06-13-09, 05:11 PM

I noticed 2, 4, and 5 are too but they're doing DTV infocommercials all day? For how long? I thought they were going away forever! Sheesh.

That's the "nightlight" service "encouraged" by the FCC, run by "volunteer" stations whose analog signals don't interfere with any post-transition assignments. Those messages will run for several weeks, just to make absolutely sure that even the most antisocial hermit gets the message and knows how to connect up a converter box. 22 and 63 are doing it too, by the way.

adorable

06-13-09, 05:28 PM

1 story 1950's home with roof antenna in residential area.

1) Roof antenna (VHF + UHF type) picks up everything.
No problems with reception on the 67 or so channels we see now.
Signal on all channels comes in strong.

2) Laptop + Hauppauge WinTV 950 + included stick antenna in bedroom with north facing window.
Channels 9,11,13,24,63 are not showing up no matter where I locate the stick antenna. (This'll be a problem for me when '24' comes on next season on Fox 11.) Signal is just flat-lined and I'll have to pickup a better UHF antenna to see these channels off my laptop. Other channels comes in fine, sometimes, moving the antenna just a few inches or feet side-to-side will do.

3) Old TV + Zenith Converter box + Radio Shack cheap bow-tie UHF clip-on antenna. Channels 40,52,58 don't come in well - low signal no matter how I adjust it. Other signals are fine and strong, just a minor antenna adjustment needed now and then. East facing window and room.

---

Thus, for the Saturday after the digital changeover, not bad at all! Receiving more channels than I had been in the analog age, and the majority of channels are coming in strong on the smaller antenna TVs in my home (expected that some will drop out). All of the channels do show up on the roof antenna TV, so there's nothing wrong with the signal at all all the way to Westminster, CA - strong, sticks, and looks great!

So, that said, people in the area should be able to get spectacular results with a good roof antenna, very good results with a cheap Radio Shack bow-tie as long as they've got a window nearby. Naturally, moving the antenna indoors away from windows will reduce your received signal strength, and you may need to buy a Antennas Direct DB2 UHF antenna at that point (or use amplifiers).

FrontLyne

06-13-09, 05:29 PM

After the switchover I completely lost KTTV 11 and KCOP 13 in the 92507 area of Riverside. KCAL 9 comes in fine if I tweak the antenna a little.

jalis

06-13-09, 05:31 PM

i still seem to have a problem pulling in 11.1. doing a rescan it doesnt even pull up. im getting 7.1-3 just fine, 9.1 is giving me some break up as well as 13.1. so anyone got any ideas....? this is for irvine 92620.

narkspud

06-13-09, 05:32 PM

2) Laptop + Hauppauge WinTV 950 + included stick antenna in bedroom with north facing window.
Channels 9,11,13,24,63 are not showing up no matter where I locate the stick antenna. (This'll be a problem for me when '24' comes on next season on Fox 11.) Signal is just flat-lined and I'll have to pickup a better UHF antenna to see these channels off my laptop.

You need to pick up a VHF/UHF antenna if you want 9, 11, and 13. Yesterday they moved their DTV signals to their actual physical channel numbers.

So did 7, but apparently you're close enough that a UHF antenna is getting the job done.

narkspud

06-13-09, 05:33 PM

After the switchover I completely lost KTTV 11 and KCOP 13 in the 92507 area of Riverside. KCAL 9 comes in fine if I tweak the antenna a little.

i still seem to have a problem pulling in 11.1. doing a rescan it doesnt even pull up. im getting 7.1-3 just fine, 9.1 is giving me some break up as well as 13.1. so anyone got any ideas....? this is for irvine 92620.

Again, make sure your antenna is good for VHF as well as UHF. Before the transition, all the major DTV stations in LA were UHF. But now 7, 9, 11 and 13 have moved to their old analog channels on VHF.

Falcon_77

06-13-09, 05:34 PM

I have completed initial testing with several antennas I have at home (Ladera Ranch - 51 miles from Mt. Wilson).

KTTV/11 remains the weakest of the major stations. I haven't had any problems with KBCS/43 at home. It's one of the strongest stations here.

The last two columns are for custom UHF and VHF bowtie antennas that I made. I am very pleased with the performance of the UHF version, it works fairly well for upper VHF as well.

If KTTV gets a grant for the 115kW they want, it should help. KCOP already has a CP for 120kW, but it might be some time before that is constructed.

I ordered a Terk HDTVi recently and it worked well for an indoor class antenna. It seems to have an advantage for UHF as well as being much more effective on VHF, with the rabbit ears.

phildaant

06-13-09, 05:39 PM

I did a single rescan. Picked up KABC, but no signal lock. Even if it can, it's very low (17%) with a DB2 bowtie antenna from 2005.

It looks like I will need a new antenna and need to fix it before tomorrow's Lakers game. :(

I have these in my old notes from February 2009 (not sure if these are still good and available):

Philips PHDTV3 Indoor Amplified UHF/VHF/FM/HDTV Antenna:
http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PHDTV3-Indoor-Amplified-Antenna/dp/B000B58VNM

Terk Technology HDTVi VHF/UHF HDTV Indoor Antenna:
http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Technology-HDTVi-Indoor-Antenna/dp/B0001FV36E

Terk HDTVa Indoor Amplified High-Definition Antenna for Off-Air HDTV
Reception
http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Amplified-High-Definition-Antenna-Reception/dp/B0007MXZB2

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2131034

What's a good indoor antenna (UHF+VHF together and doesn't require me to rotate/move) to buy from a local retail store and that will let me return (e.g., Fry's Electronics, Best Buy, Radio Shack, Costco)?

Cokeswigga

06-13-09, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Cokeswigga
Analog signals still available

2 - DTV Informercial
4 - DTV Informercial
5 - DTV Informercial
6 all static..audio only
12 Analog TV programming
22 - DTV Informercial
25 Analog TV Programming
33 Analog TV Programming
57 Analog TV Programming
67 Analog TV Programming (HSN)

sandog

06-13-09, 05:59 PM

I like the HDTVa. I can pick up all the San Diego and Mexican stations. Most of the time KTLA. Some times depending on weather I can watch KNBC. Not too sure about VHF. KFMB 8 and KGTV 10 are very close and strong.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/ThreeFor.html

sandog

06-13-09, 06:12 PM

One benefit of having a converter box is that it can help with your antenna placement. My Samsung TV and others can't be set-up manually to add channels. The signal has to be strong in order for the TV to pick it up and map it. The tuner box (Zenith dtt-901, dtvpal, others too) can sit on a specific channel and allow you to find the sweet spot.

phildaant

06-13-09, 06:15 PM

Hmm, still can't pick some with a Terk rabbit ears set:
KCBS2 = 61%
KNBC4 = undetected from scan
KTLA5 = undetected from scan
KABC7 = 90%-100%
KCAL9 = 90%
KCOP/UPN 13 = undetected from scan
KSCI 18 = undetected from scan
KCET 28.1 = undetected from scan
KOCE (SD/DT) 50 = 54%

I do notice a lot of service names and new ones I never heard of. I will have to check to see if those are the ones missing. Do all stations/channels give out their names?

sandog

06-13-09, 06:25 PM

phildaant,

Looks like you have problems with UHF reception. KTLA on channel 31, KNBC 36, KSCI on 18, KCET on 28. You have not found the sweet spot yet.

jalis

06-13-09, 06:32 PM

Again, make sure your antenna is good for VHF as well as UHF. Before the transition, all the major DTV stations in LA were UHF. But now 7, 9, 11 and 13 have moved to their old analog channels on VHF.

im using a toptronics da-001 outdoors. i know that 7,9,11,and 13 went back to their old physical channels. what im having a problem is that i can receive 7,9 and 13 but not chanel 11 at all nada nothing.if im receiving 7,9 and 13 then i should be able to pull 11 but am not..... grrr this is driving me crazy

ProjectSHO89

06-13-09, 06:38 PM

After KOLR-10 (Springfield, MO) went back to VHF-10 in April, they found that providing FM traps to viewers helped in many cases.

Has anyone in the LA area experimented with this to see if filtering out the FM broadcast band will improve S/N ratios enough to get reception on the H-VHFs there?

sandog

06-13-09, 07:01 PM

TheKing75

06-13-09, 07:23 PM

Thanks for the explanation! Presumably then, stations like KCBS, KNBC, KTLA and KBEH are only running at low power now. Also, some stations like chs 25 and 27 may be in Mexico and thus not affected by the FCC rules, as also is the case with ch 6.

The stations showing the DTV stuff are probably still running at full power, and are being maintained as a public service for the next few days. The Low Power stations are the ones that are still showing programming. Ive been doing some research trying to figure out just what stations these are, and most are repeaters.

For those interested, here are the channels that are still in Analog:
2, 4, 5 & 22 are the DTV night light channels
6 is KSFV-CA, which due to the fact that Channel 6 can be heard at 87.75MHZ on the radio, runs itself as a Radio Station. Hence why you can only get audio from it.
12 May be KYAV-LP out of Palm Springs, but I'm not sure as I don't get it.
25 is KNET-CA, a low power station in LA
27 is KNLA-LP, a repeater for KBBC-TV out of Bishop.
33 is KSMV-LP, a repeater for KJLA
45 is KSKJ-CA, a Low Power Station in Van Nuys, showing Infomercials
57 is K55KD a Low Power Station in Van Nuys showing the Almavision Network (It's not KJLA, which uses 57 as its digital virtual number. Their actual signal is 49).
63 is KBEH1, which is KBEH's low power booster station. looks like they're showing the night light now as well.
67 is KHTV-LP, is a Low Power Station that airs the Home Shopping Network
69 is KTAV-LP, a Low Power Station in Altadena showing the Almavision Network

57 and 69 are both airing the same programming.

Teeps

06-13-09, 07:29 PM

well, looking at FCC recods KCOP 13 ERP: 120Kw (BMPCDT-20080319ACJ), while KTTV 11 ERP is 15Kw. KTTV application to maximize to 115Kw is still pending (BMPCDT-20080616AAK).
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=CA&call=&arn=&city=los+angeles&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=1&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

So are saying that KTTV 11-1 DT is not broad casting at full strength? If so then that answers why everyone else can be tuned.

And, that's why jalis and I are not able to tune Fox.

ax135

06-13-09, 07:29 PM

Thank you for the info. I hope KTTV gets more power when season 8 of 24 begins in a few month.

PS. I am also in Irvine. Got a Winegard 3000 sharpshooter tucked away in the attic.

well, looking at FCC recods KCOP 13 ERP: 120Kw (BMPCDT-20080319ACJ), while KTTV 11 ERP is 15Kw. KTTV application to maximize to 115Kw is still pending (BMPCDT-20080616AAK).
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=CA&call=&arn=&city=los+angeles&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=1&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

sandog

06-13-09, 07:30 PM

In addition to http://www.tvfool.com this site will help with TV stations in a desired radius.
http://www.fccinfo.com/

Teeps

06-13-09, 07:31 PM

Thank you for the info. I hope KTTV gets more power when season 8 of 24 begins in a few month.

Amen to that... but there's always Hulu.

Teeps

06-13-09, 07:34 PM

In addition to http://www.tvfool.com this site will help with TV stations in a desired radius.
http://www.fccinfo.com/

You are the MAN sandog... :D

For those that don't; Please include city and state in your sig line.

zapbranighan

06-13-09, 07:37 PM

Anaheim, CA 92801

All major broadcast networks except Fox (KTTV 11-1) are detected fine using a Recoton UHF/VHF powered indoor antenna. This was on a Sharp LCD HDTV. Microsoft Vista Media Center only found two major broadcast networks (NBC and WB).

ax135

06-13-09, 07:37 PM

Probably due to the antenna. My neighbor has a big outdoor antenna stuffed into his attic. He is able to get 11/KTTV from Irvine.

Transmission and reception go hand in hand. In this case, my indoor antenna (winegard 3000) mounted in the attic is no match for his outdoor antenna mounted int he attic.

So are saying that KTTV 11-1 DT is not broad casting at full strength? If so then that answers why everyone else can be tuned.

And, that's why jalis and I are not able to tune Fox.

SleepyBum

06-13-09, 07:38 PM

I can get 7.1, 9.1 with my bunny ears engaged but the signal strength is very low and it pretty much ends up being unwatchable. Still can't get 11.1 or 13.1.

Plugged in my rabbit ears. I was only able to get 9.1 if I held my antenna up, over my head, almost touching the ceiling. Cannot get reception on 7.1, 11.1 or 13.1. *sigh* Guess I'm not watching the Lakers game tomorrow.

Teeps

06-13-09, 07:40 PM

Probably due to the antenna. My neighbor has a big outdoor antenna stuffed into his attic. He is able to get 11/KTTV from Irvine.

Transmission and reception go hand in hand. In this case, my indoor antenna (winegard 3000) mounted in the attic is no match for his outdoor antenna mounted int he attic.

Yes; and everything was just ducky until yesterday. Fox needs more power!

Trip in VA

06-13-09, 07:42 PM

KCOP is not at 120 kW yet. They have to replace their antenna before that can happen.

- Trip

BaseShip

06-13-09, 07:54 PM

I have a Sony Bravia TV using Radio Shack Antenna, it worked fine until yesterday after the switch, when I couldn't get 7.1, 9.1, 11.1, 13.1.

However, when I plug the roof top antenna to the TV, I can see 7.1, 9.1, etc, but not 11.1. So what's wrong?
I have a cheap Artec An1 that I bought for backup, so I plug into my TV. After moving it around, I can pickup 7.1 and 9.1 no problem, not even my RadioShack $50 can do that! (I did try moving around that RS antenna, but just doesn't work at all). Still no go on 11.1 though.

So it might have something to do with the antenna if you can't pick up some channel now, after the TV station turned off the analog transmitter, something happened...

Also, I have DTV converter box on my older TV, CM7000 (plugged to roof top Antenna), and I can see all the channels no problem. I have Zenith box also, it couldn't detect 7.1 and 9.1 at first, but after I re-scan, it picked them up.

sandog

06-13-09, 07:54 PM

Trip in VA KCOP is not at 120 kW yet. They have to replace their antenna before that can happen.

Just looking at records. Application BMPCDT-20080319ACJ was approved 5/27/2009, which is the most recent activity shown.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_list.pl?Facility_id=33742

phildaant

06-13-09, 07:58 PM

phildaant,

Looks like you have problems with UHF reception. KTLA on channel 31, KNBC 36, KSCI on 18, KCET on 28. You have not found the sweet spot yet.I am using an old Terk rabbit ears. It found 58 channels. I can get KABC7 now, but having problems with other stations:

KCBS2 = 61%
KNBC4 = 100%
KTLA5 = 100%
KABC7 = 90%-100%
KCAL9 = 90%
KTTV11 = undetected from scan
KCOP/UPN 13 = undetected from scan
KSCI 18 = detected from scan
KCET 28.1 = detected from scan
KOCE (SD/DT) 50 = detected from scan

I will keep working on this.

desertdude1

06-13-09, 08:27 PM

For those interested, here are the channels that are still in Analog:
2, 4, 5 & 22 are the DTV night light channels
6 is KSFV-CA, which due to the fact that Channel 6 can be heard at 87.75MHZ on the radio, runs itself as a Radio Station. Hence why you can only get audio from it.

I'm confused then. This morning I saw video and audio on analog channel 6, in Spanish. I'm in north Orange County.

dcox12

06-13-09, 08:28 PM

where are you??-what area--phildaant ---

Edwood

06-13-09, 08:32 PM

Well, most stations aren't working for me now. Really hate the "switch". Had a decent time receiving DTV stations for many years until now.

phildaant

06-13-09, 08:37 PM

where are you??-what area--phildaant ---91745 on the big hills.

Trying bowtie again in a different area of the room. Actually got 90%+ for KABC. Ugh, every station has different situation. KNBC sucks for this spot. blah! When I do get KNBC to work, I get audio even at 100%!

desertdude1

06-13-09, 08:49 PM

Hey phildaant, can you see Mount Wilson from your house, or is the landfill in the way?
Do you have a window that faces that direction?

TheKing75

06-13-09, 08:54 PM

I'm confused then. This morning I saw video and audio on analog channel 6, in Spanish. I'm in north Orange County.

They may run some kind of video on it, but from the wikipedia entry, they program as a radio station. They have put in a request to begin digital transmissions on 6.1, so maybe they have plans for expansion.

phildaant

06-13-09, 08:59 PM

Hey phildaant, can you see Mount Wilson from your house, or is the landfill in the way?
Do you have a window that faces that direction?According to compass it is

Most transmitters are 323-324 degrees heading on compass and under 20 miles (the stations I care for). Others are 79 and 61 degrees at 38 and 54 miles (don't care for).

I can't see any transmitters from my location, but can see the mountains on clear days but never saw any transmitters.

So far I have not been able to get KTTV at all no matter what antenna and location. Grr! I watch that station. :(

And yes for that window and makes no difference. I remember last year, the window (it has protection from heat and stuff) blocking antennae feeds.

jalis

06-13-09, 09:09 PM

ok so this may sound bad/misinformed...whatever, but i wish that they didnt change the the physical address for the stations cause i was receiving all channels just fine prior to the change over. but i guess that have to do what the have to do. grrrrrrr and i just got everything finally settled with my media centers and what not and now gotta deal with this.......lol im not bitching per say just had to vent a lil. but hopefully they do increase the power of 11.1 cause it seems like im not the only person thats having this issue in irvine and surrounding areas. (that is if indeed that the signal strength is the issue.)

desertdude1

06-13-09, 09:22 PM

According to compass it is

Most transmitters are 323-324 degrees heading on compass and under 20 miles (the stations I care for). Others are 79 and 61 degrees at 38 and 54 miles (don't care for).

I can't see any transmitters from my location, but can see the mountains on clear days but never saw any transmitters.

You say the landfill is - or isn't - blocking a clear path to Mount Wilson? 323-324° from your location is definitely Mount Wilson. I doubt you could see the TV towers unless it was a clear day. And even then, you would likely need binoculars from your location.

Make sure you're not experiencing interference problems from other electronic gadgets in your house, no matter how innocent anything looks.

Do you have a signal meter on your converter box? Does the signal strength bounce up and down rapidly for any of the channels, or is it steady wherever you place the antenna?

desertdude1

06-13-09, 09:31 PM

ok so this may sound bad/misinformed...whatever, but i wish that they didnt change the the physical address for the stations cause i was receiving all channels just fine prior to the change over. but i guess that have to do what the have to do.

This was the main reason (there were other reasons too) for switching to digital television. As of yesterday, channels 52-69 no longer exist for high power TV stations.

We need the bandwidth spectrum that channels 52-69 occupied for public safety (police, fire, etc) purposes. Most people don't realize that radio frequency spectrum is a natural resource, just like water or air.

phildaant

06-13-09, 09:33 PM

You say the landfill is - or isn't - blocking a clear path to Mount Wilson? 323-324° from your location is definitely Mount Wilson. I doubt you could see the TV towers unless it was a clear day. And even then, you would likely need binoculars from your location.

Make sure you're not experiencing interference problems from other electronic gadgets in your house, no matter how innocent anything looks.

Do you have a signal meter on your converter box? Does the signal strength bounce up and down rapidly for any of the channels, or is it steady wherever you place the antenna?Oh sorry. I don't see any landfills. I do see a tower radio antennae with red blinking lights at night. http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3043/outsideviewiw8.jpg for an old photograph from my room before I got a new window and screen.

I haven't hooked up my converter box to my old CRT TV. I will do that later like tomorrow. I am tired now from the PC's TV stuff. This is with my PC BTW. Some channnels do fluculate if I move it around or adjust antenna. Each channel wants specific positions, degrees, angles, etc.

phildaant

06-13-09, 09:42 PM

desertdude1

06-13-09, 10:05 PM

Oh sorry. I don't see any landfills. I do see a tower radio antennae with red blinking lights at night. http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3043/outsideviewiw8.jpg for an old photograph from my room before I got a new window and screen.

Ugh, that's a eucalyptus tree outside your window, isn't it? That might be your problem.

Where is that mountaintop you talked about with the flashing red lights on the towers? Is it directly behind the tree, or off to the side? That's most likely Mount Wilson.

Look here, this is where the transmitters are. Try to "draw a line" mentally speaking between that point and your window. Does the location match up? The red thumb tack should be 323-324° relative to you.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=mount+wilson,+ca&ie=UTF8&ll=34.14534,-118.019943&spn=0.38302,0.932465&t=p&z=11&iwloc=A

I haven't hooked up my converter box to my old CRT TV. This is with my PC. Some channnels do fluculate if I move it around or adjust antenna. Each channel wants specific positions, degrees, angles, etc.

Definitely try your CRT TV set. There's no need to change positions for any of the Mount Wilson stations. Once you get the proper heading, you should get everything from there (unless the tree is blocking it).

simonoh37

06-13-09, 10:06 PM

If you guys are interested in seeing a compilation of at least a handful of stations in Los Angeles switching off their analog signals as they happened, check out this video I created at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQhn0ToBU0s. Pretty interesting stuff.

Trip in VA

06-13-09, 10:06 PM

Just looking at records. Application BMPCDT-20080319ACJ was approved 5/27/2009, which is the most recent activity shown.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_list.pl?Facility_id=33742

They were approved for it, but you don't really think they could schedule a tower crew, have an antenna fabricated, get up Mount Wilson with the new restrictions on heavy machinery, have it all installed, tested, and ready in three weeks, do you?

They told the FCC in one of their filings (I wish I could remember which one) that this 120 kW facility would not be operational on June 12.

- Trip

phildaant

06-13-09, 10:26 PM

Ugh, that's a eucalyptus tree outside your window, isn't it? That might be your problem.

Where is that mountaintop you talked about with the flashing red lights on the towers? Is it directly behind the tree, or off to the side? That's most likely Mount Wilson.

Look here, this is where the transmitters are. Try to "draw a line" mentally speaking between that point and your window. Does the location match up? The red thumb tack should be 323-324° relative to you.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=mount+wilson,+ca&ie=UTF8&ll=34.14534,-118.019943&spn=0.38302,0.932465&t=p&z=11&iwloc=A

Definitely try your CRT TV set. There's no need to change positions for any of the Mount Wilson stations. Once you get the proper heading, you should get everything from there (unless the tree is blocking it).The radio station's antennae is on the left of the tree and NOT on the mountains. It is near the 60 FWY (north of it) It's on the ground of the valley. Let me find it on Google Maps and Virtual Earth. I don't know if that huge tree is a Eucalyptus as shown in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucalyptus ... I never seen flowers or anything on it. 323-324 degrees is directly behind the tree if I were to stand behind it in my room. Radio stations' antenna is on the left side away from the tree.

phildaant

06-13-09, 10:30 PM

simonoh37

06-13-09, 10:38 PM

Probably because I live in Orange County, although I don't know if that's the exact reason or not. But thanks for the compliment :)

phildaant

06-13-09, 10:39 PM

Probably because I live in Orange County, although I don't know if that's the exact reason or not. But thanks for the compliment :)Ah!

sandog

06-13-09, 10:40 PM

POST-TRANSITION KCOP-DT WILL UTILIZE ITS EXISTING ANALOG ANTENNA ON ITS EXISTING ANALOG TOWER (THE SO-CALLED MT. WILSON TOWER).

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101305051&formid=387&fac_num=33742

No need to use a crane other than to remove the old UHF antenna. If they're not at full power its not because of the antenna.

Trip in VA

06-13-09, 10:42 PM

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101305051&formid=387&fac_num=33742

No need to use a crane other than to remove the old UHF antenna. If they're not at full power its not because of the antenna.

Look closer at that filing. Look at Section II, Subsection 2. Note the filing number.

That is for a permit that has 13.5 kW as its power level. Not the 120 kW maximized facility--that will require a new antenna.

- Trip

narkspud

06-13-09, 10:55 PM

I'm confused then. This morning I saw video and audio on analog channel 6, in Spanish. I'm in north Orange County.

As a licensed class A station, they have to run a certain amount of children's and public service programming. They also occasionally run a video feed from whatever church or studio they're broadcasting from. But yes, they're primarily operating as an FM station. A very distorted FM station. And they have the power on the audio cranked to FCC-fine-causing levels, which is why some people get their audio and not video.

This was the main reason (there were other reasons too) for switching to digital television. As of yesterday, channels 52-69 no longer exist for high power TV stations.

We need the bandwidth spectrum that channels 52-69 occupied for public safety (police, fire, etc) purposes. Most people don't realize that radio frequency spectrum is a natural resource, just like water or air.

Careful that you don't drink the Kool-Aid. The public safety stuff was pure political hokum. Law enforcement and public safety agencies have already made it quite clear that the new bandwidth is useless to them, since it's not compatible with any current systems, and they couldn't get anybody to bid to run the thing anyway.

Those channels are primarily going to be used for commercial services, such as cell phones and wireless internet. The one channel that was supposed to be for public safety will most likely remain vacant.

There are a lot of good things about the digital transition, but this is definitely not among them.

sandog

06-13-09, 11:13 PM

Ok, Trip you're correct. I didn't look at the antenna model. Bottom line is that KCOP still has work to do, but at least they have their application approved. KTTV still needs the official approval.

Post Facility: BPCDT - 20080717AFP
Antenna Structure Registration Number: 1055307
Manufacturer RCA, Model: TF-6AH,Power 13.5kw

Aux Facility: BXPCDT - 20080801AAC
Antenna Structure Registration Number: 1012222
Manufacturer: RCA, Model: TF-6AH, Power 12.3kw

Max Facillity: BMPCDT-20080319ACJ
Antenna Structure Registration Number: 1055307
Manufacturer:ERI, Model: ATW14V6-ETO-13, Power 120kw

henhowc

06-13-09, 11:17 PM

Plugged in my rabbit ears. I was only able to get 9.1 if I held my antenna up, over my head, almost touching the ceiling. Cannot get reception on 7.1, 11.1 or 13.1. *sigh* Guess I'm not watching the Lakers game tomorrow.

That's the same thing I've been worried about. LOL

narkspud

06-13-09, 11:27 PM

Although it's been said, many times, many ways ...

Truly reliable reception usually requires an antenna on the roof. It was like that in 1951, and it still is now.

jdryyz

06-14-09, 12:26 AM

phildaant

06-14-09, 12:59 AM

That's the same thing I've been worried about. LOLMe too. :(

phildaant

06-14-09, 01:00 AM

Although it's been said, many times, many ways ...

Truly reliable reception usually requires an antenna on the roof. It was like that in 1951, and it still is now.Not everyone can. :(

coyoteaz

06-14-09, 01:01 AM

I'd take a Winegard HD7694P over that any day of the week, and at less than half the price, it's easier on the wallet too.

phildaant

06-14-09, 01:02 AM

phildaant

06-14-09, 01:05 AM

What do you guys think of this one as a replacement:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/C2-Clearstream-DTV-antenna.html

Looks like it was designed specifically for what changed. Too bad it is almost $100 though.

I am located in Torrance 90501I wonder if we can get the front part added to our current old DB antennae easily?

HarrisonS

06-14-09, 01:09 AM

I'm confused then. This morning I saw video and audio on analog channel 6, in Spanish. I'm in north Orange County.

Channel 6 evidently is in Mexico, because its call sign is XETV. While it serves San Diego, if it is over the border it would not be affected by the mandated changeover. I was getting it weakly here also.

HarrisonS

06-14-09, 01:15 AM

Although it's been said, many times, many ways ...

Truly reliable reception usually requires an antenna on the roof. It was like that in 1951, and it still is now.

Absolutely true! I think people need to reminded of this. I think many of those who are having more difficulty after the changeover need to upgrade their VHF antennas.

phildaant

06-14-09, 01:45 AM

Is it true that not all TV stations are at full powers and won't happen until after a week?

I was reading http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-10264157-94.html and it looks like antennae are running low. :( I think I have to wait. :(

mkpl

06-14-09, 02:46 AM

sandog

06-14-09, 02:52 AM

Antenna? scroll down and look at this...
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/7303.html?1244908702

simonoh37

06-14-09, 04:18 AM

Two days since the DTV Transition. If you guys are interested in seeing a compilation of at least a handful of stations in Los Angeles switching off their analog signals as they happened, check out this video I created at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQhn0ToBU0s. Pretty interesting stuff.

TheKing75

06-14-09, 05:07 AM

Channel 6 evidently is in Mexico, because its call sign is XETV. While it serves San Diego, if it is over the border it would not be affected by the mandated changeover. I was getting it weakly here also.

That is a San Diego station, based in Mexico, and a CW affiliate, but it's not the same channel 6 we were referring to earlier. while you might pick it up, most are probably picking up this channel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KSFV-CA

XETV is in mexico, but it's an English language station. KSFV is in the San Fernando Valley and is in Spanish.

ProjectSHO89

06-14-09, 07:22 AM

I was picking up all digital channels with 98-100% signal strength using:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB4_HDTV_antenna.html

pointed from my attic space to Mt. Wilson. After channels 7 - 13 moved back to VHF, I no longer receive two and the other two are weak.

What do you guys think of this one as a replacement:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/C2-Clearstream-DTV-antenna.html

Looks like it was designed specifically for what changed. Too bad it is almost $100 though.

I am located in Torrance 90501

The C2, if mounted outside, would probably work. My testing shows it's about as effective as rabbit ears on H-VHF and the placement of the coax definitely changes it's H-VHF performance. I found that running the coax horizontally (and perpendicular to the signal source) for a meter or so really makes a big improvement. Keep in mind that most of it's H-VHF pickup is due to the feed-line radiation rather than the antenna actually resonating at those frequencies.

The good news is that the C2 is carried in-store by Best Buy so you can check online to see if your local store carries it. Makes for an easy test drive.

VenturaTVViewer

06-14-09, 09:57 AM

Does VHF refract or reflect? And how does it transmit over long distances, and with weather changes does it behave like UHF. Any subtle differences as the channels will be upper 7-13 in lieu of lower 2-6 which are no longer being used.

Discussion of VHF versus distance like:

Short distance: Rabbit Ears.

Longer: Winegard Yagi

Longest: etc.

Keep going folks on the discussions!

phildaant

06-14-09, 10:02 AM

The C2, if mounted outside, would probably work. My testing shows it's about as effective as rabbit ears on H-VHF and the placement of the coax definitely changes it's H-VHF performance. I found that running the coax horizontally (and perpendicular to the signal source) for a meter or so really makes a big improvement. Keep in mind that most of it's H-VHF pickup is due to the feed-line radiation rather than the antenna actually resonating at those frequencies.

The good news is that the C2 is carried in-store by Best Buy so you can check online to see if your local store carries it. Makes for an easy test drive.Can this be used inside? I don't mind having a big stand with an antenna like a big stand lamp.

HarrisonS

06-14-09, 10:13 AM

That is a San Diego station, based in Mexico, and a CW affiliate, but it's not the same channel 6 we were referring to earlier. while you might pick it up, most are probably picking up this channel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KSFV-CA

XETV is in mexico, but it's an English language station. KSFV is in the San Fernando Valley and is in Spanish.

That must be what I was picking up. I did not verify the call sign, but assumed it was XETV, since I used to pick up XETV in the past quite well when there was a good inversion. Also I was unaware of the existence of KSFV or any other station in the area on ch 6. It was, in fact, in Spanish.

HarrisonS

06-14-09, 10:35 AM

Does VHF refract or reflect? And how does it transmit over long distances, and with weather changes does it behave like UHF.

In comparison to UHF, especially high UHF, VHF behaves less like a beam of light, and the effects of refraction and diffraction increase the ability of the signal to go around obstructions. All of this makes it easier to pick up VHF stations at locations not in the line-of-sight from the transmitter. The highest UHF channels, i.e., chs 52-69, are, I think, less suitable for television, since you almost need to be able to physically see the transmitter, i.e., Mt Wilson, in order to have reliable reception, regardless of weather. I think these new changes will be beneficial to most TV viewers. Personally, I have seen a big improvement since the most problematic stations have moved to lower frequencies.

Teeps

06-14-09, 10:48 AM

I was picking up all digital channels with 98-100% signal strength using:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB4_HDTV_antenna.html

pointed from my attic space to Mt. Wilson. After channels 7 - 13 moved back to VHF, I no longer receive two and the other two are weak.

What do you guys think of this one as a replacement:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/C2-Clearstream-DTV-antenna.html

Looks like it was designed specifically for what changed. Too bad it is almost $100 though.

I am located in Torrance 90501

I am no engineer but the second antenna looks like to much like a snake-oil solution, to me...

To add to the confusion: I've been using a 4 bay bowtie antenna http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphoto.php/photo/17709/sort/2/ppuser/13702/sl/t
for about 9 years for OTA here in Torrance (90503 east side of the mall.) Since the switch my tv capture cards MyHD MDP100 and MDP130 do not receive 7, 9, or 11; however, the antenna in the photo has a splitter and also feeds a TiVo S3. TiVo receives 7, 9, 11 and 13 with no problems. Something to say for 5 years of tuner development...

phildaant

06-14-09, 10:58 AM

I am no engineer but the second antenna looks like to much like a snake-oil solution, to me...

To add to the confusion: I've been using a 4 bay bowtie antenna http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphoto.php/photo/17709/sort/2/ppuser/13702/sl/t
for about 9 years for OTA here in Torrance (90503 east side of the mall.) Since the switch my tv capture cards MyHD MDP100 and MDP130 do not receive 7, 9, or 11; however, the antenna in the photo has a splitter and also feeds a TiVo S3. TiVo receives 7, 9, 11 and 13 with no problems. Something to say for 5 years of tuner development...Hmmm, I could be having the same problem with my PC's two old HDTV tuners from 2005. I am using these: http://www.bbti.us/products_air2pc_atsc_pci.htm and http://www.bbti.us/download/datasheets/Air2PC-ATSC-PCI.pdf ... :( Any ways to improve them without buying new ones?

I am going to hook up my dTV Pal converter box to an old 20" CRT TV to see how it handles rabbit ears and bowtie antennae separately.

jmonier

06-14-09, 11:03 AM

phildaant

06-14-09, 11:09 AM

I would say that the V10 or V15 (also available from antennas direct) would be a lot better for less money. Since everything is on Mt. Wilson a directional antenna is the way to go.How about an indoor antenna for those who can't put it outside or in roof?

jdryyz

06-14-09, 11:17 AM

No, in my attic space. I cannot do outdoor where I am. Since the BD4 did so well, I am hoping to duplicate that with the C2, but I realize VHF signals aren't as forgiving as UHF. However, the C2 makes specific claims to assist in this area.

Yep, sounds like my symptoms too. I don't think our DB bowtie antennae are going to work with the change. :( I assume yours is outdoor?

phildaant

06-14-09, 11:20 AM

The radio station's antennae is on the left of the tree and NOT on the mountains. It is near the 60 FWY (north of it) It's on the ground of the valley. Let me find it on Google Maps and Virtual Earth. I don't know if that huge tree is a Eucalyptus as shown in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucalyptus ... I never seen flowers or anything on it. 323-324 degrees is directly behind the tree if I were to stand behind it in my room. Radio stations' antenna is on the left side away from the tree.FYI:

From my house to Mt. Wilson view on Google Earth's aerial map:
http://xs222.xs.to/xs222/07500/GE3DaerialmapAndTx.jpg and
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/6838/aerialmapofmyhousetomtw.jpg

Satellite view:
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/6838/aerialmapofmyhousetomtw.jpg

Nearby Radio Station's Antennae That Might Cause TV Interferences?:
Latitude: 34° 2'1.26"N
Longitude: 117°59'3.41"W

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=34%C2%B0+2'1.26%22N++117%C2%B059'3.41%22W&sll=37.649034,-95.712891&sspn=43.419048,38.320312&ie=UTF8&ll=34.033688,-117.984281&spn=0.011221,0.009356&t=h&z=16&iwloc=A

jdryyz

06-14-09, 11:35 AM

The C2 has greater range and is multi-directional as well. Are you sure that *everything* is coming from Mt. Wilson? I do have some PBS / Orange County stations I would like to continue to receive. I recall needing to find the optimal position with the DB4 in my previous Torrance location (still in 90501) but my current location has been a blessing. I just pointed about 30 degrees from North with no tweaking and received very strong signals on *all* pre-June 12th channels. I am even close to a power pole!

My tuners are all modern, by the way. Made within the past 2 years. My main TV is actually a late 2008 model but was manufactured this year.

I would say that the V10 or V15 (also available from antennas direct) would be a lot better for less money. Since everything is on Mt. Wilson a directional antenna is the way to go.

narkspud

06-14-09, 11:52 AM

Is it true that not all TV stations are at full powers and won't happen until after a week?

Stations are always applying for upgrades, and I'm sure many more are considering it now that they know the reality of their new digital coverage. And yes, it's true that there are stations out there that haven't been able to complete work on their system.

But Phil, after months and months of reading your posts, I really, truly, honestly think you're gonna have to spring for cable. There are some reception conditions that just don't have a solution.

Either that or hire a garden shop hit man to take out that Eucalyptus tree.

Hmmm, I could be having the same problem with my PC's two old HDTV tuners from 2005. I am using these: http://www.bbti.us/products_air2pc_atsc_pci.htm and http://www.bbti.us/download/datasheets/Air2PC-ATSC-PCI.pdf ... :( Any ways to improve them without buying new ones?.

Again, you're ruling out the one solution that is most likely to work. HDTV tuners from 2005 don't hold a candle to the current crop.

That must be what I was picking up. I did not verify the call sign, but assumed it was XETV, since I used to pick up XETV in the past quite well when there was a good inversion. Also I was unaware of the existence of KSFV or any other station in the area on ch 6. It was, in fact, in Spanish.

Very LOUD Spanish if it's KSFV.

narkspud

06-14-09, 11:54 AM

I do have some PBS / Orange County stations I would like to continue to receive.

They're on Mt. Wilson. City of license has become something of a non-issue in the LA market.

jdryyz

06-14-09, 12:27 PM

That is interesting info. Thanks for sharing. The fact that I can pick up two VHF stations (though weak) from a UHF antenna says something about my location for sure. I'm willing to bet that *any* decent VHF antenna put in the same position should do the job and the C2 seems to fit the form factor I want as well.

That is good news on being available in store.

The C2, if mounted outside, would probably work. My testing shows it's about as effective as rabbit ears on H-VHF and the placement of the coax definitely changes it's H-VHF performance. I found that running the coax horizontally (and perpendicular to the signal source) for a meter or so really makes a big improvement. Keep in mind that most of it's H-VHF pickup is due to the feed-line radiation rather than the antenna actually resonating at those frequencies.

The good news is that the C2 is carried in-store by Best Buy so you can check online to see if your local store carries it. Makes for an easy test drive.

jdryyz

06-14-09, 12:30 PM

Good to know. Thanks.

They're on Mt. Wilson. City of license has become something of a non-issue in the LA market.

narkspud

06-14-09, 12:47 PM

I see that 22 has decided that 4 nightlights are sufficient.

andydrew

06-14-09, 01:02 PM

I was picking up all digital channels with 98-100% signal strength using:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB4_HDTV_antenna.html

pointed from my attic space to Mt. Wilson. After channels 7 - 13 moved back to VHF, I no longer receive two and the other two are weak.

What do you guys think of this one as a replacement:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/C2-Clearstream-DTV-antenna.html

Looks like it was designed specifically for what changed. Too bad it is almost $100 though.

I am located in Torrance 90501

I have three of the ClearStream 4 antenna's. I would NOT recommend the Clearstream 2 or Clearstream 4 for VHF reception. You NEED a real VHF antenna or if you are close enough Rabbit Ears may be fine.

Antenna's Direct has the Clearstream 5 coming out soon for VHF:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/C5-Clearstream-DTV-antenna.html

List price is quite high. You would be better off with a Winegard or AntennaCraft VHF antenna.

Read this before you go out and by a Clearstream 2 or 4 for VHF: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html

Balon that is included does not pass VHF freqencies well...

"The antenna elements are too small to have any response to VHF. And in case a really strong VHF signal sneaks in anyway, the UHF-only balun will filter it out. The manufacturer’s web site says “Designed for reception on high VHF (Ch 7-13) and core UHF (Ch 14-51)” and “Consistent gain through the entire DTV channel spectrum.” These are complete lies, as this graph shows:"

phildaant

06-14-09, 01:05 PM

I have three of the ClearStream 4 antenna's. I would NOT recommend the Clearstream 2 or Clearstream 4 for VHF reception. You NEED a real VHF antenna or if you are close enough Rabbit Ears may be fine.

Antenna's Direct has the Clearstream 5 coming out soon for VHF:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/C5-Clearstream-DTV-antenna.html

List price is quite high. You would be better off with a Winegard or AntennaCraft VHF antenna.

Read this before you go out and by a Clearstream 2 or 4 for VHF: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html

Balon that is included does not pass VHF freqencies well...

"The antenna elements are too small to have any response to VHF. And in case a really strong VHF signal sneaks in anyway, the UHF-only balun will filter it out. The manufacturer’s web site says “Designed for reception on high VHF (Ch 7-13) and core UHF (Ch 14-51)” and “Consistent gain through the entire DTV channel spectrum.” These are complete lies, as this graph shows:"Wow, that's huge. Is there combo one instead of two separate antennae?

jdryyz

06-14-09, 01:18 PM

Why is this review contradicting itself? The opening statement reads:

"AntennasDirect ClearStream 2

This is an excellent antenna. It is roughly the same size and performance as the DB2"

I have three of the ClearStream 4 antenna's. I would NOT recommend the Clearstream 2 or Clearstream 4 for VHF reception. You NEED a real VHF antenna or if you are close enough Rabbit Ears may be fine.

Antenna's Direct has the Clearstream 5 coming out soon for VHF:

http://www.antennasdirect.com/C5-Clearstream-DTV-antenna.html

List price is quite high. You would be better off with a Winegard or AntennaCraft VHF antenna.

Read this before you go out and by a Clearstream 2 or 4 for VHF: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html

Balon that is included does not pass VHF freqencies well...

"The antenna elements are too small to have any response to VHF. And in case a really strong VHF signal sneaks in anyway, the UHF-only balun will filter it out. The manufacturer’s web site says “Designed for reception on high VHF (Ch 7-13) and core UHF (Ch 14-51)” and “Consistent gain through the entire DTV channel spectrum.” These are complete lies, as this graph shows:"

andydrew

06-14-09, 01:27 PM

andydrew

06-14-09, 01:29 PM

Wow, that's huge. Is there combo one instead of two separate antennae?

Antenna's Direct is going to include a UHF/VHF combiner with the ClearStream5. Their intention is that you will have a ClearStream 1, 2, or 4 combined with a ClearStream 5.

No combo/one piece in the ClearStream line.

phildaant

06-14-09, 01:30 PM

It's an excellent antenna for UHF - NOT VHF. Especially for it's small size.Then, what's good that have both UHF and VHF and for indoor?

andydrew

06-14-09, 01:32 PM

I see that 22 has decided that 4 nightlights are sufficient.

So analog 22 is shut down now?

This may be great news for me since I live in Tijuana and have been trying to pick up 57-1 on UHF 22 - broadcast from Tijuana. I believe that analog 22 in LA has been causing me co-channel interference. Will have to try getting 57-1 again.

Sorry to hijack the LA thread. But I can receive many LA stations also - hence my interest.

andydrew

06-14-09, 01:34 PM

Then, what's good that have both UHF and VHF and for indoor?

check here for indoor antenna info:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779
http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/hdtv-antenna-reviews.php

thanks to holl_ands for these links.

phildaant

06-14-09, 01:35 PM

Antenna's Direct is going to include a UHF/VHF combiner with the ClearStream5. Their intention is that you will have a ClearStream 1, 2, or 4 combined with a ClearStream 5.

No combo/one piece in the ClearStream line.Ah. Hmm, I wonder how their CS compares to a DB2 bowtie and Terk rabbit ears combined. I can't get all channels from UHF and VHF separately. For example on VHF, KTTV is very weak or doesn't lock signals.

Earlier, I went downstair to see a couple's using a non-rabbit ears Terk antenna (http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Low-Profile-Indoor-Antenna-TV5/dp/B000069106 ) and they have no problems with their April 2008's Zeinth converter box. I noticed their KTTV is soso signal strengths (yellow), but much better than mine. I will have to try my dTV Pal converter box and antennae. I might borrow their Terk antenna as well if still problems. Maybe it is the old HDTV tuner cards I have. :(

phildaant

06-14-09, 01:35 PM

check here for indoor antenna info:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779
http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/hdtv-antenna-reviews.php

thanks to holl_ands for these links.Thanks!

andydrew

06-14-09, 01:50 PM

I see that 22 has decided that 4 nightlights are sufficient.

Nightlight still running on analog 22. Scheduled to stop on 6/26/2009. Too bad... they could save themselves a nice chunk of $$$ in electric bills by turning it off now :)

andydrew

06-14-09, 01:52 PM

Ah. Hmm, I wonder how their CS compares to a DB2 bowtie and Terk rabbit ears combined. I can't get all channels from UHF and VHF separately. For example on VHF, KTTV is very weak or doesn't lock signals.

Earlier, I went downstair to see a couple's using a non-rabbit ears Terk antenna (http://www.amazon.com/Terk-Low-Profile-Indoor-Antenna-TV5/dp/B000069106 ) and they have no problems with their April 2008's Zeinth converter box. I noticed their KTTV is soso signal strengths (yellow), but much better than mine. I will have to try my dTV Pal converter box and antennae. I might borrow their Terk antenna as well if still problems. Maybe it is the old HDTV tuner cards I have. :(

If you need an indoor UHF antenna, you could try the new Clearstream Convertible - have not seen any reviews on this. Would assume this is very similar to the ClearStream 2. Still not going to be good for VHF (regardless of Antennas Direct's claims) unless they changed the balon. So you will still need rabbit ears or another good indoor antenna that includes both UHF and VHF elements.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/C1-Clearstream-Convertible-DTV-antenna.html

jdryyz

06-14-09, 01:54 PM

I suspected this may be the case. I think he could have added "...for UHF" for clarification.

That's a bummer about the data reported on the VHF. I figured I couldn't go wrong with the same manufacturer of the great performing DB4. Do you think they just threw the C series together in a hurry to attract the post June 12 customers?

I have limited attic space and could not go with a Yagi type or other large antenna. Is there a VHF/UHF combo in a similar form factor as the DB4/C2 that you *would* recommend?

It's an excellent antenna for UHF - NOT VHF. Especially for it's small size.

phildaant

06-14-09, 01:59 PM

If you need an indoor UHF antenna, you could try the new Clearstream Convertible - have not seen any reviews on this. Would assume this is very similar to the ClearStream 2. Still not going to be good for VHF (regardless of Antennas Direct's claims) unless they changed the balon. So you will still need rabbit ears or another good indoor antenna that includes both UHF and VHF elements.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/C1-Clearstream-Convertible-DTV-antenna.htmlAh, interesting. Yeah, I'd like to know if these works well. I wonder if local stores sell these parts. It seems like C2 aren't good for VHF at all from previous replies in here. :(

phildaant

06-14-09, 02:00 PM

holl_ands

06-14-09, 02:17 PM

phildaant

06-14-09, 02:20 PM

Ken Nist dissembled and found the Balun in the A-D C2 only passed UHF and caused
VERY HIGH LOSS on VHF:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html
A-D was notified re this error.....but so far no response....Does A-D ever reply to their e-mails? I e-mailed them in the past about their antennae and they never responded. :(

jdryyz

06-14-09, 02:21 PM

Yep, read the same data posted earlier.

Do you know how far back Antennas Direct was infomed?

Sounds like it has the potential to be a good combo antenna if this problem was corrected....that is, if they even acknowledge it as a problem.

Taking it a step further, I wonder how difficult it would be correct the problem. The circuit board design is not complex. Ken seems very knowledgeable. I bet he could post the parts list/modification instructions to allow proper passing of the VHF signal....even if it means ruining the aesthetics in the process (it will be in my attic out of sight so no problem).

Ken Nist dissembled and found the Balun in the A-D C2 only passed UHF and caused
VERY HIGH LOSS on VHF:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html
A-D was notified re this error.....but so far no response....

holl_ands

06-14-09, 02:36 PM

Falcon_77

06-14-09, 03:11 PM

There was an article in the OC Register Commentary section today. The online version is here:

Saying goodbye to analog TV

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/new-channels-channel-2461957-digital-analog

I certainly agree with this comment:

For technical reasons the lower VHF channels are less hospitable to DTV signals and the channels above channel 51 have been auctioned (by the government) to wireless service providers. Because channel 2, 4 and 5 will no longer be transmitting on their analog channels, the digital Los Angeles TV band will effectively be confined to channels 7 through 51. This is the new core, and our rooftop antennas need only cope with this more narrow range. This means that the familiar longer antenna elements designed to receive these lower channels, and the very short elements used above channel 52 will no longer be needed. Maybe Radio Shack or another antenna maker will figure this out soon and offer an efficient Los Angeles tailored antenna for channels 7 through 51.

The few outdoor class antennas I've seen in local retain stores still have the Low-VHF elements. I can see going down to 5-6 as the new Channel Master line appears to be trying to do, but elminating at least 2-4 would save significant antenna width.

There will, however, be LP stations on 2-6 locally and some LD apps in that range have been filed. However, aside from curiosity to see if my Y5-2-6 can pick them up, I have no interest in watching them. I would rather see the FCC abandon channels 2-6 for TV altogether.

As for 52-69, the Winegard 769x series antennas are for 7-69. Hopefully, they (and others) can do another re-design for 7-51.

I had read previously that the Clearstreams were no good for even upper VHF.

Diplexing in a pair of rabbit ears, set to the proper lengths may work in some cases.

Here is a link with some tips on using rabbit ears:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/RabbitEars.html

Here is a diplexer that one can use to combine an existing UHF only antenna, with a VHF antenna:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ

Another diplexer can be used to filter out Low-VHF/FM, in case FM stations are causing problems for upper VHF (by way of the 2nd harmonic):

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HLSJ

Just attach a terminator on the "LO" side to change this into a high-pass filter.

Falcon_77

06-14-09, 03:23 PM

Careful that you don't drink the Kool-Aid. The public safety stuff was pure political hokum. Law enforcement and public safety agencies have already made it quite clear that the new bandwidth is useless to them, since it's not compatible with any current systems, and they couldn't get anybody to bid to run the thing anyway.

I had originally thought that the Land Mobile allocations were going to move to the new auctioned frequencies. However, as you have noted, there don't seem to be any strides in this direction.

We aren't quite as starved for channels here, but UHF 22-51 simply aren't sufficient, especially in the NorthEast US, where the UHF band is extremely crowded and where much of 14-21 is also lost to Land Mobile. NYC and Hartford (~90 miles away) have *multiple* co-channels.

The next transition should be to vacate 2-6 (nationwide) and force Land Mobile into the new frequencies set aside for them. Wishful thinking, perhaps...

However, what do we get instead? White Space Devices will start entering the remaining TV bands, since we have oh so much space! :mad:

Can we get back some of the auctioned channels? :rolleyes:

agcohn

06-14-09, 03:29 PM

Falcon_77

06-14-09, 03:31 PM

Is there a particular configuration that is better suited for channels in that range?

Have a look at the rabbit ear link a couple posts above for the lengths you can try.

While I'm sure this varies with each antenna, I've found that fully extending the "ears" can often be counter-productive. Try extending only to 30% - 60% to see if you can find a sweet spot.

The problem with the cheap rabbit ear/loop combos is that the loop and "ears" are not completely independent (diplexed), so they can interfere with each other.

Also, amplifiers can sometimes be counterproductive. Make sure you try it both ways (w/o the amp and with the amp), to see which is better.

phildaant

06-14-09, 04:10 PM

OK, I finally opened, connected, and configured my new dTV Pal converter box that I got for Christmas 2008. I used my Terk rabbit ears.

It was able to find about 60 channels. I had to rescan twice because it couldn't pick KTTV 11.1. This converter box also has problems getting KTTV. Its signal strength is like in high 50s to low 60s and I see pixels. :(

KABC is about 70 to 80 on converter box while HDTV tuner card was either nothing (no lock) or at 17%.

Just for kicks, I reconnected my old DB2 bowtie antennae and guess what? ALL my faovrite channels are actually good. Even KABC and KTTV! KCLS was bad as usual with that antenna, but don't care about them unlike KCET 28 and KOCE 50. I recalled KLCS has transmitter power problem or something?

All much better than my PC's HDTV tuners so I guess I do need to upgrade them. I wonder if I can do firmware upgrades to fix them? Now, my PC tuners are pretty much useless now if they don't get good signals. :(

QUESTIONS: Do converter boxes handle less bandwidth even though they can't handle HD or something to handle video feed better? Also, is KTTV using low power? I wonder what else to improve getting KTTV with stronger signals without buying new HDTV tuners for my PC. I got TSReaderLite to tell me about this frequency/channel: Locked and Unlocked SNRs ranged from 12.x to 13.x dB. I assume that is too low.

henhowc

06-14-09, 04:41 PM

Here is a link with some tips on using rabbit ears:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/RabbitEars.html

Anyone else try the aluminum balls suggestion? :p

phildaant

06-14-09, 05:54 PM

Is it me or is channel 50.3's name wrong? It shows KOCE, but its name is Daystar. Eh? I noticed this on my two HDTV tuners and dTV Pal converter box.

desertdude1

06-14-09, 06:24 PM

Is it me or is channel 50.3's name wrong? It shows KOCE, but its name is Daystar. Eh? I noticed this on my two HDTV tuners and dTV Pal converter box.

No, that's correct.

It's complicated...Daystar won the rights to 50-3 after a long court battle.

phildaant

06-14-09, 06:41 PM

No, that's correct.

It's complicated...Daystar won the rights to 50-3 after a long court battle.Oh, interesting. I thought it was a bug in the software scanner, but then converter box showed that too.

Falcon_77

06-14-09, 06:42 PM

Anyone else try the aluminum balls suggestion? :p

They aren't needed for 7-13. This is to help 2-4 as most rabbit ears aren't long enough to receive those channels properly. However, 2-6 aren't used for full power DTV stations in LA.

ickysmits

06-14-09, 07:07 PM

Any suggestions for improving reception on channels 7-13?

I have an LCD in my living room attached to a TERK HTDVA. It can sort of receive 7 and 9, nothing on 11 and 13. Everything else is pretty much full signal.

In my bedroom I have a CRT attached to a converter box and a RCA ANT121. It gets pretty good reception on 7 and 9, mixed reception on 11 (sometimes it says no signal; sometimes it says good reception), and nothing on 13.

I understand that 7-13 are VHF, so that means that I should be adjusting the rabbit ears part of the antenna, right?

Is there a particular configuration that is better suited for channels in that range?

The CRT and RCA ANT121 are definitely better placed for reception on the north side of my apartment next to a big window.

I live in Sherman Oaks.

This is just annoying because as of a couple of days ago, 7-11 were working perfectly on both TV sets. For some reason 13 has never really worked on the TERK, which I will grant is not "ideally" placed for reception.

I have to agree that it’s very annoying to go from trouble free reception to dodgy/nothing on 7-13. I have no luck on the Westside either - just around the corner from the KTTV studio on Bundy and Olympic (not that it makes any difference, just kind of ironic). Granted, I’m using an indoor antenna but I’m also in the middle of what’s supposed to be coverage for the city of LA.

I went out to Radio Shack and picked up a VHF antenna and a diplexer to combine with my UHF antenna, as described a few posts above you, and still get no reception on 11.1 and choppy reception on 7.1, 9.1, and 13.1. I’m annoyed to no end that, if simple VHF rabbit ears don’t work very well, anything else will be a huge PITA.

The implementation of this transition to DTV just plain sucks.

adorable

06-14-09, 07:09 PM

I'm looking at my roof mounted antenna (put up years ago), and it looks like one of these babies (by counting the elements and comparing the shape). For anyone thinking of a roof antenna and wanting perfect reception, this will likely do all the way down to Westminster, CA.

No problems at all pickup up everything off my 1 story home, and perfect reception on all digital channels.

So, for <$90, it's one of the best types to get vs. spending money on smaller indoor amplified antennas and the sort (which may or may not work for you). I know some people aren't crazy about outdoor antennas, but once we had this baby up, we've never had a signal problem ever since here in LA before or after the digital transition.

At least you won't need to hunt for an antenna that works for sure!

----

http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem~d~winegard-hd7015-vhfuhffm-prostar-1000-tv-antenna-(hd7015)~p~hd-7015.htm

Winegard HD7015 VHF/UHF/FM Prostar 1000 TV Antenna (HD-7015)

Formerly the PR-7015 model antenna, the HD-7015 antenna combines VHF, UHF, and FM reception in a 31 element light-weight antenna. The HD-7015 can also be used to pickup local HD channel broadcasts from a single location. Includes 300 ohm / 75 ohm matching transformer (balun), RG-6 cable not included.

* VHF Elements: 12
* UHF Elements: 19
* VHF reception range is approximately 50 miles
* UHF reception range is approximately 35 miles
* 300 ohm output / 75 ohm transofrmer included
* Digital Ready
* Box size: 90¼ x 6½ x 6½
* (Formerly model PR-7015)
* Boom Length: 87.75 in.
* Width: 111 in.
* Height: 25.5 in.
* Turning Radius: 69 in.

---

Farther south?
http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem~d~winegard-hd-8200u-high-defintion-platinum-vhfuhffm-antenna-(hd8200u)~p~hd8200u.htm
They do have an even bigger model that'll work for you.

phildaant

06-14-09, 07:18 PM

I have to agree that it’s very annoying to go from trouble free reception to dodgy/nothing on 7-13. I have no luck on the Westside either - just around the corner from the KTTV studio on Bundy and Olympic (not that it makes any difference, just kind of ironic). Granted, I’m using an indoor antenna but I’m also in the middle of what’s supposed to be coverage for the city of LA.

I went out to Radio Shack and picked up a VHF antenna and a diplexer to combine with my UHF antenna, as described a few posts above you, and still get no reception on 11.1 and choppy reception on 7.1, 9.1, and 13.1. I’m annoyed to no end that, if simple VHF rabbit ears don’t work very well, anything else will be a huge PITA.

The implementation of this transition to DTV just plain sucks.It seems like we're not the only ones either after I posted my incident (antdude): http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1268273&threshold=0&commentsort=3&mode=thread&cid=28327841 ... Maybe many people have this problem too so we should wait and retry again later?

I am a bit glad this was done in summer and not in February 17th, 2009. Can you imagine missing all the regular TV shows (would miss my FOX shows like 24, Simpsons, Family Guy, American Dad, etc.) back then? Ugh! And this would hurt TV companies. ;)

Falcon_77

06-14-09, 07:18 PM

If you don't want FM on your antenna, this Winegard is a good 7-51 (made for 7-69) combo:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HD7694P

I just don't see a need to buy a super-wide outdoor antenna when 2-6 aren't needed (except for KSFV/6 and future low-power stations there). How many people are watching these LP stations, however?

narkspud

06-14-09, 07:30 PM

22's nightlight is back. :rolleyes:

VenturaTVViewer

06-14-09, 07:40 PM

Analog? Think of the savings. No Converter Boxes. No big tv's. A more green planet....

phildaant

06-14-09, 07:45 PM

Analog? Think of the savings. No Converter Boxes. No big tv's. A more green planet....And be able to watch stuff that aren't missing due to weak signals. At least with analog, I could still watch fussy video feeds!!! Bah!

ProjectSHO89

06-14-09, 07:54 PM

Can this be used inside? I don't mind having a big stand with an antenna like a big stand lamp.

Sure, it makes a great indoor antenna if you're a bit creative on making your own mounting fixture.

Just keep in mind that the best place to put an antenna is WHERE THE SIGNaL IS, not where it's convenient for you!

oc-rdx

06-14-09, 08:00 PM

BondiBluey

06-14-09, 08:17 PM

For any anyone picking up KEDD-LP channel 50, is it really MTV Tr3s? I'm now picking up a weak signal, but can't lock it in. I won't try another antenna, if it is MTV Tr3s, since I now get that on KBEH 63(24).

Currently the program is "Hola El Salvador."

Almost impossible to get the signal to lock here (90042) with an indoor antenna and yet KFLA-LD 8 on slightly less power comes in rain or shine.

They are on the same tower too.

Correction: It is KNLA-LD 20 and KFLA-LD 8 that are on the same tower. KEDD-LD's CP for 50 was rescinded by the FCC. See below.

ProjectSHO89

06-14-09, 08:33 PM

oc-rdx

06-14-09, 09:52 PM

Currently the program is "Hola El Salvador."

Almost impossible to get the signal to lock here (90042) with an indoor antenna and yet KFLA-LD 8 on slightly less power comes in rain or shine.

They are on the same tower too.

Thanks,

I assume KEDD has no sub channels?

FrontLyne

06-14-09, 10:34 PM

It seems like some viewers here including myself are having problems receiving KTTV 11 and KCOP 13. Today I tried 3 different antennas HDTVA, Antennas Direct C2 and my trusty Philips MANT310. The HDTVA was able to get around a 4 percent signal but no picture.

I'm trying to figure out if the problem with KTTV/KCOP is widespread and not a local issue, I hate to bug the engineers until I can get concrete proof of a potential problem on their end.

BTW, when they transmitted KCOP on UHF Channel 66 many people online complained about not getting a signal, some believed that it was because they weren't transmitting at full capacity or at least the wattage they stated on the FCC app. I contacted engineering in January 08 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12956596#post12956596) about the problem with KCOP and the person I spoke to told me they never received *any* complaints despite my numerous complaints in 06/07 so I suspect this will be an uphill battle if they're not transmitting at full capacity again.

If you can't get a signal from these two stations give your location, antenna model/location, total channels, signal quality, etc also If you can get a signal let everyone know as well and feel free to use this template. I want to forward the information to the engineers and if necessary the station manager or anyone else who is willing to listen (If there is a problem).

Location: Riverside 92507
Distance from KTTV (34.224722 -118.063056): 44.33 miles
Antenna Model: Philips MANT310
Antenna Location: 2nd story window facing towards Mt Wilson
Total Detected Channels: 68

Signal Quality:
KTTV 11 (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d663dfb67c48f6e%26t%3dALLTV2%26n%3d20) - Unable to lock/No Signal
KCOP 13 (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d663dfb67c48f6e%26t%3dALLTV2%26n%3d17) - Unable to lock/No Signal

Resources:
http://www.getlatlon.com (Used to obtain my coordinates)
http://www.geody.com/geocoordist.php?world=terra&circum=&c1=&c2=34.224722%2C-118.063056 (Page to calculate distance between KTTV (34.224722 -118.063056) and my location)

You can also use http://tvfool.com to show the distance between your location and the transmitter.

jdryyz

06-14-09, 11:01 PM

Nice to hear the point of view from the other side. I may give the C2 a try.

The high-VHF performance of the ClearStreams was covered in depth by its design engineer (JER3) on a different forum a couple of months ago. See http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=41076&highlight=clearstream&page=8 starting around post # 110 or 115. He explained how it is able to receive a measure of high-VHF even though, as both he and Mr Nist noted, the balun does not pass much of that band. Mr Nist's simulations, however, fail to take the intentionally designed feed-line radiation effect into account. It appears that he as not acknowledged that oversight but instead simply rates it as a UHF-only antenna with extraordinarily poor high-VHF performance.

Those who rely on these hobbyist-grade simulations will get hobbyist-grade advice. I'd speculate that most of those who have continuously commented on the "lack of high-VHF performance" have never hooked up a signal meter or spectrum analyzer to any of the ClearStream antennas and seen what they can actually do in a real field environment. I have done both and tailor my suggestions based on my own hand-on testing.

Now, don't get me wrong, there are great high-VHF antennas out there that, of course, are large enough to look (and resonate) like conventional antennas.

Based on my testing, the ClearStream's high-VHF performance is generally about that of rabbit ears for the C1 (and the C1C w/reflector), a bit better (about 1-2 dBmV) than that with the C2, and a little bit more than that with the C4. No one will mistake these for a YA1713 in either performance or aesthetics, but they do serve well as a compact antenna for many folks in decent signal areas who cannot situate a full-size antenna. Relative to high-VHF, my observations have been that the C1 is okay out to about 15-20 miles, the C2 about 20-25 miles, and the C4 to around 45-50 miles or so. Ask the PBS station in Jax, FL about the C4.... Also, read EV's report-in-progress about the C1C at 45 miles with a 7777 on VHF 7 in the indoor antennas thread.

Of course, YMMV due to many circumstances out of your control such as low station power, terrain, obstructions, and more.

andydrew

06-14-09, 11:17 PM

narkspud

06-14-09, 11:31 PM

For any anyone picking up KEDD-LP channel 50, is it really MTV Tr3s? I'm now picking up a weak signal, but can't lock it in. I won't try another antenna, if it is MTV Tr3s, since I now get that on KBEH 63(24).

Whoa whoa whoa hold the phone a second. I think we're getting confuzzulated here. At least I am.

KEDD-LP Lancaster is the MTV Tr3s station. AFAIK, they are still analog only.

The digital station I'm getting as of Friday night is KNLA-LD, Los Angeles. It broadcasts on 50 and maps to 20-1. It's acting as a translator for KBBC, Bishop. Its analog counterpart - which is still on the air - is KNLA-LP, channel 27.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KNLA-LP

It has one stream with a bitrate that stays under 6 Mbps. Their picture is even blurrier than KBEH's and their audio flips back and forth between the stereo channels constantly, like some kid is flipping a switch.

Yeah this one is enriching my life a lot.

Trip in VA

06-14-09, 11:34 PM

It has one stream with a bitrate that stays under 6 Mbps.

Using TSReader by any chance? I'd love an HTML Export of this one if at all possible, since Falcon_77 can't see it apparently...

- Trip

narkspud

06-14-09, 11:38 PM

Using TSReader by any chance? I'd love an HTML Export of this one if at all possible, since Falcon_77 can't see it apparently...

- Trip

Nope - I'm on a Mac, and using EyeTV. I can watch a real-time readout of the bitrate and see a few other stats (720x480, 29.97 FPS, audio 128 kbps) but that's the best I can do. Sorry.

Trip in VA

06-14-09, 11:46 PM

Thanks, those stats actually do help quite a bit. =)

- Trip

BondiBluey

06-14-09, 11:53 PM

Thanks,

I assume KEDD has no sub channels?

Correct.

Actually I got confused on this one too as KEDD had an App for 50 which appears to have been denied.

Narkspud is absolutely correct - that this is KNLA who relay the signal of KBBC 20 out of Bishop and also have a spot on DirecTV in the LA market.

Trip in VA

06-14-09, 11:56 PM

KEDD-LD cannot be on the air because the FCC rescinded their grant, since it has huge overlap with KNLA-LD.

- Trip

Falcon_77

06-15-09, 12:22 AM

I got KNLA-LD from my uncle's house in San Clemente. Attached is the TSR.

It is ironic that an LD station is coming in better here than 7-13. What is more surprising is that analog 7-13 were strong and clear here. (So why is DTV a problem?)

oc-rdx

06-15-09, 12:24 AM

KEDD-LD cannot be on the air because the FCC rescinded their grant, since it has huge overlap with KNLA-LD.

- Trip

Interseting..., KNLA doesn't even show up on TV Fool for a digital channel at my zip code, 92612. The signal is not strong enough to lock in. I do receieve analog 27, which I assume is KNLA.

Falcon_77

06-15-09, 12:30 AM

phildaant

06-15-09, 12:55 AM

Here are the SNR results from my uncle's house in San Clemente with the HDTVi. They have LOS to Mt. Wilson here.

KABC 7 15-17
KCAL 9 19-20
KTTV 11 3-4
KCOP 13 17-19
KSCI 18 29-31
KTBN 23 29-30
KBEH 24 18-20
KCET 28 27-30
KFTR 29 30-33
KTLA 31 31-32
KDOC 32 29-31
KMEX 34 29-30
KRCA 35 33-35
KNBC 36 31-33
KPXN 38 31-33
KVEA 39 27-28
KLCS 41 28-30
KWHY42 30-31
KCBS 43 32-34
KAZA 47 31-33
KOCE 48 31-32
KJLA 49 30-31
KNLA 50 21-23
KXLA 51 30-31

UHF is much simpler, just point and tune. I tried all kinds of rabbit ear lengths and settled at the 3 stop position here. I couldn't get all 4 regardless or KTTV/11 at all here.

Attached is a pic of the analog nightlight on 2. Impulse noise could be the problem for upper VHF too.Seriously, there's something wrong with KTTV 11 at 3-4. I think KTTV needs to fix it soon since a lot of us are having problems. Earlier, TSReaderLite to tell me about this frequency/channel: Locked and unlocked SNRs ranged from 12.x to 13.x dB. Although my KABC7, KCOP13/UPN13, and KCAL9 got better today than yesterday with my bowtie antenna.

Even Zeinth and dTV Pal converter boxes show weak signals (50-60%).

jammer13

06-15-09, 01:32 AM

Seriously, there's something wrong with KTTV 11 at 3-4. I think KTTV needs to fix it soon since a lot of us are having problems. Earlier, TSReaderLite to tell me about this frequency/channel: Locked and unlocked SNRs ranged from 12.x to 13.x dB. Although my KABC7, KCOP13/UPN13, and KCAL9 got better today than yesterday with my bowtie antenna.

Agree on KTTV 11. At the moment, I'm relying only on the UHF 91xg antenna, but at least get some signal from Ch 7,9 & 13 albeit weak but enough to show on the TV w/o pixelation. I can't get a signal for Ch 11 no matter what. Zero's all around. I keep expecting someone in the know will chime in that they're operating at well below their intended final intensity.

BaseShip

06-15-09, 01:35 AM

henhowc

06-15-09, 01:40 AM

Woot Lakers are the NBA champs. Rabbit ears on my Terk HDTVa gets me about 30% signal strength for KABC/7.1 in 90025.

At least I know I won't be missing out on too much from 9-13 until the Fall. :p

phildaant

06-15-09, 01:46 AM

I cannot get KTTV 11/KCOP 13 at all on my LCD TV with ATSC tuner, nor my Zenith converter box with indoor antenna.

But my CM7000 box + roof top antenna can pick up KTTV 11/KCOP 13...after I update the CM7000's channel list, and just be sure I go thru every single channel one by one. I suspect that is because CM7000's tuner is more sensitive than any others out here (I tried plug it to my indoor antenna, no go though, only works with outdoor roof top antenna).

But yeah, something is not right with station Ch. 11 and Ch 13. They got to know something is wrong with their setup.Does anyone have the contacts to KTTV's transmitter team? I can't find it on their Web sites. I did find these maps: http://media.myfoxla.com/specials/DTV/kttv-signal-map.jpg and http://media.myfoxla.com/specials/DTV/kcop-signal-map.jpg but that's not new since FCC or somewhere had those. ;)

phildaant

06-15-09, 01:47 AM

Woot Lakers are the NBA champs. Rabbit ears on my Terk HDTVa gets me about 30% signal strength in 90025.

At least I know I won't be missing out on too much from 9-13 until the Fall. :pYep same here for Lakers (damn people riotting though -- you're not fans for doing that!!!!!!!!) and TV shows until fall. I do need my KTTV fixed by then!!

sandog

06-15-09, 02:07 AM

KTTV 11/KCOP 13 are not at their maximized power. In fact KTTV's application for 115kw is not even approved. Looks like the FCC miscalculated the VHF band. This seems to be the main problem nation wide. Those with problems should call the FCC just to make sure your stations get their request approved.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/279344-ABC_FCC_Working_on_DTV_Reception_Issues.php

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/279342-Quiet_DTV_Transition_for_Media_General_Stations.php

phildaant

06-15-09, 02:21 AM

narkspud

06-15-09, 02:28 AM

I cannot get KTTV 11/KCOP 13 at all on my LCD TV with ATSC tuner, nor my Zenith converter box with indoor antenna.

But my CM7000 box + roof top antenna can pick up KTTV 11/KCOP 13...after I update the CM7000's channel list, and just be sure I go thru every single channel one by one. I suspect that is because CM7000's tuner is more sensitive than any others out here (I tried plug it to my indoor antenna, no go though, only works with outdoor roof top antenna).

But yeah, something is not right with station Ch. 11 and Ch 13. They got to know something is wrong with their setup.

My Zenith's significantly more sensitive than my Channel Master. Try plugging the Zenith into the outdoor antenna and see how it does.

coyoteaz

06-15-09, 02:38 AM

The FCC calculated VHF just fine. There's just no such thing as a good indoor VHF antenna.

ickysmits

06-15-09, 03:17 AM

The FCC calculated VHF just fine. There's just no such thing as a good indoor VHF antenna.

Then there’s something wrong with allocating VHF channels to a major metropolitan market like LA. I can’t make any good arguments here since I know nothing about broadcasting, antennas, etc… but it seems like common sense to me; this is a big city with apartment, condo, and townhome dwellers everywhere and not everyone is able to put a big antenna on a pole and call it a day. If there is indeed no such thing as a good indoor VHF antenna, then why even broadcast in VHF at all? I’m just curious as I live in the heart of LA and can’t pick up an acceptable signal from 7 to 13 with an indoor VHF antenna - I, and my friends, had no issues at all when they were UHF. It just seems odd as these are major networks and a lot more difficult to receive than the plethora of crap that snaps right in.

sandog

06-15-09, 03:53 AM

"We always believed that we were given an insufficient power allocation, and we will work closely with the FCC to aleviate the situation," said WLS-TV President and General Manager Emily Barr. Julie Hoover, a spokeswoman for the ABC station group, said the situation is the same in Philadelphia.

FCC staffer Bob Radcliff said at a press conference Saturday that the FCC was aware of WLS' difficulties. He did not cite WPVI but said the FCC was doing some field analysis of how VHF stations "are experiencing problems in big cities." He said he has talked with stations and the commission is trying to figure out how to "adjust the technical parameters of these stations to improve their service in the cities."

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/279344-ABC_FCC_Working_on_DTV_Reception_Issues.php

Seems to me the FCC miscalculated.

ProjectSHO89

06-15-09, 06:21 AM

Go ahead try the Clearstream2 or Clearstream4. They are really good for UHF - especially for the size. I was unable to receive VHF 8 with a ClearStream4, 24 miles away from the transmitter in the San Diego market (remember San Diego had 2 digital stations switch from UHF to VHF in February - so we have already been through this). Although it is listed as 2EDGE reception on TVfool.com. And this is near the coast with few obstructions. This is well within the 45-50 miles that ProjectSHO89 claims will work - didn't work for me.

If you are close to the tower, maybe it will work. Indoors mount is going to be more challenging than rooftop mounts. Certainly no substitute for a proper, roof-mounted VHF antenna.

Buy it somewhere that you can return it to if it doesn't work out.

Keep in mind that SD's two VHF towers are near La Jolla while everything else is near El Cajon on UHF. Makes for a nasty signal spread for many residents.

Any 1- or (especially) 2-edge diffraction will greatly diminish the amount of signal available and will require an antenna that is more efficient or of higher gain than would have been needed at the same distance had the terrain not been an issue.

My observed performance is based on non-obstructed signal paths.

A good vendor's return policy is always helpful when experimenting with any antenna.

VenturaTVViewer

06-15-09, 09:41 AM

Wondering if that would work for VHF within 30 miles of the towers. Taking four rabbit ears with ends attached together. Same model of ears. With a connector. Then using a RS in-line signal amplifier. Adding an efficient reflector.

Think this would work in the areas closest to the towers.

The fringe areas of LA are now disenfranchised due to the low power of VHF stations: When your talking 11 KV that low amount of power is a joke. You have got to be kidding, right? Might as well turn the signal off and save people their valuable time. Go with Internet TV if their not going to increase their power. Or, go do something else.

VenturaTVViewer

06-15-09, 09:57 AM

HIPAR

06-15-09, 09:59 AM

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/279344-ABC_FCC_Working_on_DTV_Reception_Issues.php

Seems to me the FCC miscalculated.

There is supposed to be an effective power gain with the 8VSB waveform. I'm sure the 8VSB/NTSC advantage can be theoretically calculated and demonstrated in the laboratory or over a free space path. What happens in the real world of terrestrial propagation with signal fading, multipath, impulse noise and interference during extended propagation events?

--- CHAS

HarrisonS

06-15-09, 10:19 AM

There is supposed to be an effective power gain with the 8VSB waveform. I'm sure the 8VSB/NTSC advantage can be theoretically calculated and demonstrated in the laboratory or over a free space path... --- CHAS

I know that is what "they say". But your points are very well taken. There is a fallacy in that line of thinking. You cannot make a single, simplistic comparison between 8VSB and NTSC. On the one hand, when both signals are coming in and producing a picture, then what they say is true. The big problem is that 8VSB has a very high threshold. If the signal strength drops below that critical threshold, the picture pixellates or freezes or just disappears. The NTSC signal, on the other hand, just gets a little noisier, or "snowy", and you can still at least watch a slightly snowy picture!

holl_ands

06-15-09, 10:42 AM

The high-VHF performance of the ClearStreams was covered in depth by its design engineer (JER3) on a different forum a couple of months ago. See http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=41076&highlight=clearstream&page=8 starting around post # 110 or 115. He explained how it is able to receive a measure of high-VHF even though, as both he and Mr Nist noted, the balun does not pass much of that band. Mr Nist's simulations, however, fail to take the intentionally designed feed-line radiation effect into account. It appears that he as not acknowledged that oversight but instead simply rates it as a UHF-only antenna with extraordinarily poor high-VHF performance.

Those who rely on these hobbyist-grade simulations will get hobbyist-grade advice. I'd speculate that most of those who have continuously commented on the "lack of high-VHF performance" have never hooked up a signal meter or spectrum analyzer to any of the ClearStream antennas and seen what they can actually do in a real field environment. I have done both and tailor my suggestions based on my own hand-on testing.

Now, don't get me wrong, there are great high-VHF antennas out there that, of course, are large enough to look (and resonate) like conventional antennas.

Based on my testing, the ClearStream's high-VHF performance is generally about that of rabbit ears for the C1 (and the C1C w/reflector), a bit better (about 1-2 dBmV) than that with the C2, and a little bit more than that with the C4. No one will mistake these for a YA1713 in either performance or aesthetics, but they do serve well as a compact antenna for many folks in decent signal areas who cannot situate a full-size antenna. Relative to high-VHF, my observations have been that the C1 is okay out to about 15-20 miles, the C2 about 20-25 miles, and the C4 to around 45-50 miles or so. Ask the PBS station in Jax, FL about the C4.... Also, read EV's report-in-progress about the C1C at 45 miles with a 7777 on VHF 7 in the indoor antennas thread.

Of course, YMMV due to many circumstances out of your control such as low station power, terrain, obstructions, and more.
Here is what John Ross (JER3) of A-D said:
"We do not specify VHF performance on the C1, C2 and C4 because it is below
the design passband and the PCB baluns do not produce a balanced antennas
at low frequencies. The latter however enables reception from what is known
as feedline radiation. While this is usually avoided for transmitting antennas,
on receive it can in fact enhance reception on the out-of-band (i.e. not in design window)
frequencies. The effect is quite dependent on installation specifics so your
"mileage may vary" but this is still sufficient for many consumers near the VHF stations."

Sounds like hooking up a coat hanger to one side of a UHF ONLY Balun and hoping for the best......
Sure any hunk of metal is gonna do SOMETHING....the question people want to know
is how much gain am I likely to get out of the C2....in the direction I need....without
excessive VSWR degradation....esp. compared to other alternatives?????

What sort of azimuthal coverage does it provide??? The Silver Sensor reportedly
has best VHF response towards the SIDES...

What are the important VSWR characteristics??? Moderate to high VSWR can:
1) Cause a mis-match loss:
http://www.csgnetwork.com/vswrlosscalc.html
[Many well designed antennas struggle to keep VSWR under 3.0, which is a loss of 1.25 dB.]

2) Cause standing wave nulls along the coax that may be an ADDITIONAL loss on some
channels and perhaps not as much on others (YMMV...try adding short, 1-3-ft coax sections):
http://www.ocarc.ca/coax.htm
[For 100-ft of RG-6 at 120 MHz compare SWR=1 to SWR=2 or 3 (good antenna) to SWR=10-100 (bad).]
http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/vswr_visual.cfm
http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/vswr.cfm
and
3) Degrade the EVM (Error Vector Magnitude) which can degrade if not overwhelm
the digital adaptive equalizer....described here as degrading the Noise Figure:
http://www.tvantenna.tv/papers/PFactorsV.pdf
http://www.tvantenna.tv/papers/dtv%20coverage%20and%20service%20prediction.pdf

Until A-D provides some specific data, they shouldn't be advertising VHF coverage.

Alternatively, it would help if a number of "typical" C1/C2/C4 users could provide
actual Signal Level and/or SNR and/or Signal Quality Percentage measurements
for these antennas compared to say RabbitEars....preferably comparing non-amplified
to non-amplified and amplified to amplified....unfortunately, it's a craps shot...and YMMV....

HarrisonS

06-15-09, 10:54 AM

Wondering how this would work in the Los Angeles area: Quad rabbit ears post above in a reflector box, and another reflector box with quad RS bowties, whole system hardwired to RG-6, then an inline signal amplifier.
No wind load worries, No lightning worries. Think for 30 to maybe 45 miles out.

From earlier post think the following channels are gone for fringe areas of LA: KABC-TV 7 at 11.2 KW; KCAL-TV 9 at 12.0 KW; KCOP-TV 13 at 14.1 KW; and maybe KTTV 11 at 40.2 KW.

I think that the terrain, etc. between the transmitter and reciver is also very important, perhaps more so than the distance, and this becomes imcreasingly important at UHF frequencies which act more like a beam of light.

I agree that those power levels seem ridiculously low. However, I am getting good reception on all the VHF channels (7-13) following the changeover, using a Winegard YA-1713 Yagi on the roof. The reception on chs 11 and 13 is much better than before. Previously ch 11 was only watchable during favorable weather conditions and just disappeared completely during rainy weather or in Santa Ana winds. And I never got channel 13! Now both are solid and stable, at least so far. But with regard to signal strength, neither are "barn burners" and definitely could use a power boost, to provide a safety margin for bad weather, and to be able to be received with indoor antennas, etc.

HIPAR

06-15-09, 11:16 AM

... The big problem is that 8VSB has a very high threshold. If the signal strength drops below that critical threshold, the picture pixellates or freezes or just disappears ...

Does anyone out there know how many dB defines the 'Digital cliff'?

It should be a simple measurement. Insert a step attenuator into the antenna feedline. Tune a perfect DTV signal and begin adding dB attenuation. Record the difference in dB attenuation between when the picture begins to occasionally break up and when lock is no longer possible.

A radar I once worked with used a digitally coded waveform that exhibited a 'digital cliff' of about 1.5 dB. I guess the effectiveness of error correction mechanisms in the ATSC digital transport stream is a major determining factor for DTV.

The 8VSB waveform is also somewhat fragile as every redundant spectral component has been filtered out to fit the 19 megabit transport stream into a 6 MHz channel.

I'm glad I'm not the engineer in charge of fixing the reception problems after the technical decisions were made and implemented.

--- CHAS

VenturaTVViewer

06-15-09, 11:24 AM

Seems like this is the solution to the problem.

More reliable reception in the greater Los Angeles area, except fringe areas.

Only VHF stations.

Would result in all Los Angeles broadcasters being able to receive their own signal at their broadcasting facility using an over the air antenna.
Would be very embarassing if a broadcaster could not receive their own signal. This would be an interesting study right now for VHF Stations.
Can their receive their own signal over the air?

Falcon_77

06-15-09, 11:28 AM

Does anyone have the contacts to KTTV's transmitter team? I can't find it on their Web sites. I did find these maps: http://media.myfoxla.com/specials/DTV/kttv-signal-map.jpg and http://media.myfoxla.com/specials/DTV/kcop-signal-map.jpg but that's not new since FCC or somewhere had those. ;)

The local station contact numbers can be found on the dtv.gov site:

http://www.dtv.gov/dtv_resources.htm?zipcode=92780&x=0&y=0

Here are the ones for 11 & 13

# FOX (KTTV): 866-620-9089
# MYTV (KCOP-TV): 866-620-9095

I haven't found a complaint form on KTTV's website, so I will e-mail another department. Note that I have never received any responses when I e-mailed them before.

The FCC VHF calculations ignore that 75% of OTA viewers have indoor antennas. This also will ignore most viewers of mobile DTV if that is successful.

Even with my attic antennas, 7 and 13 are improved, yes, but of the 4, only KCAL/9 can compete with average UHF stations. Perhaps the power increases for 11 (requested) and 13 (granted, but not constructed) will help. At the moment, 15kW (11) and 13.5kW (13) are not getting it done.

Falcon_77

06-15-09, 11:31 AM

Does anyone out there know how many dB defines the 'Digital cliff'?

I think 15.4dB is the ATSC spec threshold, but I haven't found under 17dB, minimum to be watchable. Under 20dB doesn't provide much of a fade margin, for changing conditions.

FrontLyne

06-15-09, 11:48 AM

Edit: I tried to post this message last night but it was moderated.

It seems like some viewers here including myself are having problems receiving KTTV 11 and KCOP 13. Today I tried 3 different antennas HDTVA, Antennas Direct C2 and my trusty Philips MANT310. The HDTVA was able to get around a 4 percent signal but no picture.

BTW, when they transmitted KCOP on UHF Channel 66 many people online complained about not getting a signal, some believed that it was because they weren't transmitting at full capacity or at least the wattage they stated on the FCC app. I contacted engineering in January 08 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12956596#post12956596) about the problem with KCOP and the person I spoke to told me they never received *any* complaints despite my numerous complaints in 06/07 so I suspect this will be an uphill battle if they're not transmitting at full capacity again.

If you can't get a signal from these two stations give your location, antenna model/location, total channels, signal quality, etc also If you can get a signal let everyone know as well and feel free to use this template. I want to forward the information to the engineers and if necessary the station manager or anyone else who is willing to listen.

Location: Riverside 92507
Distance from KTTV (34.224722 -118.063056): 44.33 miles
Antenna Model: Philips MANT310
Antenna Location: 2nd story window facing towards Mt Wilson
Total Detected Channels: 68

Signal Quality:
KTTV 11 (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d663dfb67c48f6e%26t%3dALLTV2%26n%3d20) - Unable to lock/No Signal
KCOP 13 (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d663dfb67c48f6e%26t%3dALLTV2%26n%3d17) - Unable to lock/No Signal

Resources:
http://www.getlatlon.com (Used to obtain my coordinates)
http://www.geody.com/geocoordist.php?world=terra&circum=&c1=&c2=34.224722%2C-118.063056 (Page to calculate distance between KTTV (34.224722 -118.063056) and my location)

You can also use http://tvfool.com to show the distance between your location and the transmitter.

FrontLyne

06-15-09, 12:10 PM

HIPAR

06-15-09, 12:18 PM

I think 15.4dB is the ATSC spec threshold, but I haven't found under 17dB, minimum to be watchable. Under 20dB doesn't provide much of a fade margin, for changing conditions.

I assume these are signal to noise power ratios.

--- CHAS

Trip in VA

06-15-09, 01:04 PM

HarrisonS

06-15-09, 01:32 PM

I've gotten 15.6 dB SNR to work for me on UHF. On low-VHF, my luck is more like 16.3 dB SNR.

I've never decoded an upper-VHF digital since there were so few in my area. I haven't been home to try DXing yet.

- Trip

DX-wise, I was picking up KFMB (ch 8.1) and KGTV (chs 10.1, 10.15) a couple of weeks ago when propagation conditions were more favorable. They are about 135 miles away.

shawndoc

06-15-09, 03:40 PM

phildaant

06-15-09, 04:01 PM

I just called KTTV and asked for engineering but he said they were not available so he took down my name, phone #, city/zipcode and other information like the antenna I'm using and said they will give me a call back.Cool! You might want to mention this forum thread/discussion since you're not alone with the issues.

leemell

06-15-09, 04:18 PM

I can't get 11 or 13 either. Need to double check, but pretty sure I get 9 ok.

Zip code: 92870 (Shows yellow on antennaweb.org)

Using a Philips MANT940 antenna. Located indoors (actually get better reception indoors than outside).

Using a Tivax STB-T8 connected to an old analog TV. With channel 11 I get signal bouncing between nothing and 11% (About half way up the "bad"). With 13 I get nothing.

Which really sucks, because Good Day LA is my morning background noise of choice.

I'm about 25 miles west of Mt. Wilson, I have edge refraction on some of the stations and LOS or others. I'm getting the following:

Ch. SNR Sig Pwr

2 36 -46
4 35 -47
5 33 -53
7 35 -51
9 35 -53
11 33 -59
13 29 -60

Solid locks on all. Before the changeover, 7 was just OK, 11 was most good, and 13 was marginal, many freezes some dropouts.

This is a Toshiba LCD with CM 4228 no amp.

Possumgirl

06-15-09, 05:09 PM

I'm hoping some of the gurus here can give me a clue with the cause of a reception problem. Unlike many of you though, it's not high-VHF. All four of them are perfect. :)

I'm in Glendora, 13.5 miles from Mt. Wilson, clear LOS. I have a VHF/UHF antenna in the attic. It's been up there 20+ years and I cannot get to it easily (if at all). Before last Fri. I had solid reception on all but 2 channels (KTLA & KDOC). Both of them were bad. Since I don't watch them I didn't care, but I was worried about KCET going back to 28 since my analog reception of 28 was very poor. I was receiving digital KCET around 88% signal.

My fears have been realized as now KCET is at best 65% with 18.5 SNR and lots of signal breakup. After going through all my channels and checking signal strength on many of them (88-94%), I find the problem is isolated to RF28, 29, 31 & 32. Attempting to diagnose the problem, I picked up an el cheapo Radio Shack UHF bowtie and scanned channels. By playing with the position of the bowtie I was able to find a "sweet spot" where all four "bad" channels came in steady at about 88% signal. However, when I was in that sweet spot, other channels like KCBS & KNBC wouldn't come in.

So what does this tell me? Does my attic antenna simply need a bit of tweaking? Need to be replaced? My understanding of all this is minimal and I'm probably going to have to hire someone to get in the attic. I'd at least like to tell them what the problem is. :D

I'd sure appreciate some insight.