Has anyone tried a glass mount antenna designed for cars on their home windows instead?

I wonder if a ham radio 2-meter/440 antenna would work for Phildaant? He's so close to Mount Wilson and (theoretically) shouldn't need an exterior antenna. Pretty sure there are TV antennas designed for cars as well.

Maybe Phildaant could remove a tiny square of his window tinting and glue the antenna on from the outside of the glass?I am that close? I am in 91745 on a big hill (not at the bottom of the valley). As of last night, no KTTV on my computer's two HDTV tuners but soso (50ish%) on converter boxes (Zeinth and dTV Pal). I can't go outside since I am upstair to put on my window and I am disabled.

Distance from KTTV: Under 20 miles (based on zipcode).
Antenna Model: Antenna Direct's DB2 Bowtie (http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB2_Indoor_antenna.html ) and Terk Rabbit Ears (http://wbaldt.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/terk_indoor_passive_rabbit_ear_an_4.jpg ) separately. Both were from 2005 or so.

Antenna Location: Indoors (tried everywhere in my room. On right side, left side, high in my closet, etc.).

Total Detected Channels: 66 for the highest. It varies.

Signal Quality:
KTTV 11 - Unable to lock/No Signal
KCOP 13 - Actually, decent and viewable. Can't remember the numbers. I will have to check if you need them! Saturday was awful though. Nothing or barely.

I am that close? I am in 91745 on a big hill (not at the bottom of the valley). As of last night, no KTTV on my computer's two HDTV tuners but soso (50ish%) on converter boxes (Zeinth and dTV Pal). I can't go outside since I am upstair to put on my window and I am disabled.

Distance from KTTV: Under 20 miles (based on zipcode).

Oh yeah, you are close. I would guess you're closer than 75% of everybody else. Less than 20 miles is nothing.

I forget from the pictures you posted, do those windows open up?

Oh yeah, you are close. I would guess you're closer than 75% of everybody else. Less than 20 miles is nothing.

I forget from the pictures you posted, do those windows open up?To go outside, not for me since I am disabled. I can open and close the window to get air or not get air though. And yes I already tried having window opened with just screens for antennae feeds. Very small changes (5% at most), but doesn't help KTTV issue.

Funny how I am almost 20 miles and have problems. OY! Must be the hill, that tree, that radio station's antennae down the hill, etc. ;P

I am just west of Fox Studio/Century City near the 18th hole at Rancho Park golf course. Before 6/13/09 I was getting very good HD reception of local channels from my 35 year old roof top antenna. However, since the switch over to all digital broadcast I no longer get any of the ABC broadcasts including 7.1. Actually I do not get anything between channel 6 and 22. I also do not get KCET 28.1 any longer.

I have found all of these channels and others as QAM broadcasts on my TWC "limited basic" cable service but I hate depending on TWC. Why did this start on Saturday and what do I need to do to fix it?

Thanks,

Larry

I have found all of these channels and others as QAM broadcasts on my TWC "limited basic" cable service but I hate depending on TWC. Why did this start on Saturday and what do I need to do to fix it?Larry, it started on Saturday because of Friday's DTV changes and analog shutdown.

Has anybody considered that 'no reception problems' may be due to too much multipath? I know that each succeeding generation of ATSC tuners were able to handle more severe multipath. A good solution is to use a high gain antenna which will attenuate multipath off angle. If the signal is too strong an attenuator can be inserted in the coaxial line.

An FCC, or station complaint will not get very far if the location of the complaint is not within the new Designated Market Area (DMA) for the station.
Maybe, but dont you think thats a load of crap argument on the FCCs part if someone was previously getting that station fairly well in analog ?

I suspected they were related, what do I need to do to remedy the problem?

Thanks

I am just west of Fox Studio/Century City near the 18th hole at Rancho Park golf course. Before 6/13/09 I was getting very good HD reception of local channels from my 35 year old roof top antenna. However, since the switch over to all digital broadcast I no longer get any of the ABC broadcasts including 7.1. Actually I do not get anything between channel 6 and 22. I also do not get KCET 28.1 any longer.

I have found all of these channels and others as QAM broadcasts on my TWC "limited basic" cable service but I hate depending on TWC. Why did this start on Saturday and what do I need to do to fix it?

Thanks,

Larry

Channel rescan. Learn it, live it, love it.

Maybe, but dont you think thats a load of crap argument on the FCCs part if someone was previously getting that station fairly well in analog ?

I'm not sure the FCC doesn't agree with you. I'd suggest that *anybody* who has lost the service of a formerly receivable analog ought to give them a buzz. Can't hurt.

Narkspud, I did the rescan three times, it was no help with Ch 7 thru 22. Caused me to miss half of the Laker game.

I do not believe rescan is the solution for me.

Thanks,
Larry

Narkspud, I did the rescan three times, it was no help with Ch 7 thru 22. Caused me to miss half of the Laker game.

I do not believe rescan is the solution for me.

Thanks,
Larry

I understand those inexpensive DAC have the latest generation ATSC tuner. You could try one to see if multipath is causing you a problem.

Hi there

> I understand those inexpensive DAC have the latest generation ATSC tuner.

Presumably you mean CECB.
Yeah, they convert a digital TV signal to analog, but DAC usually means something more basic that a TV converter box. Misusing jargon/acronyms doesn't help anybody.

Regards

Narkspud, I did the rescan three times, it was no help with Ch 7 thru 22. Caused me to miss half of the Laker game.

I do not believe rescan is the solution for me.

Thanks,
Larry

Yes, but 7 through 22, plus 28 are some of the ones that moved.

Make sure your antenna is VHF/UHF. If it's UHF only (a lot of the so-called "digital" ones are), then you'll have trouble with 7 through 13. They're on VHF now.

There are certain tuners that require you to go into the menus and manually remove the old channels from the memory before the box can find the new ones. It's a bug.

Another solution that I've heard tell of:

(1) Unplug box.

(2) Unhook antenna.

(3) Plug in box and do a channel scan without antenna.

(4) Unplug box, let it sit for an hour.

(5) Plug box back in and scan yet again.

They say this works. Of course they say a lot of stuff.

EDIT: Oops, 22 didn't move. My bad.

I am just west of Fox Studio/Century City near the 18th hole at Rancho Park golf course. Before 6/13/09 I was getting very good HD reception of local channels from my 35 year old roof top antenna. However, since the switch over to all digital broadcast I no longer get any of the ABC broadcasts including 7.1. Actually I do not get anything between channel 6 and 22. I also do not get KCET 28.1 any longer.

I have found all of these channels and others as QAM broadcasts on my TWC "limited basic" cable service but I hate depending on TWC. Why did this start on Saturday and what do I need to do to fix it?

Thanks,

Larry

I think you might have answered the question yourself. The antenna is 35 years old. It's been hanging out there for 35 years in our fine LA air. Antennas and connections will fail over time. Even though it may look good from the ground, things may not be electrically all that great. Elements in the antenna may not be making contact and the connectors can get flakey. I've seen antenna and/or connectors actually notch out a single channel. It might be time to consider a replacement.

And don't overlook replacing the coax, which may have moisture inside.
And if you're using twin-lead, it turned to pulverized plasticine dust years ago....

Great. I lost KABC7 again on my computer. It was fine yesterday for Lakers game and after the game! :( I had to tell my computer's DVB Viewers to reattempt the channel 7 (not rescan) like five times and finally locked on. Same for TSReader Lite. Obviously, my converter box was fine. Funny thing is that both showed 90-100% signal strengths! Oy!

KTTV is still not lockable. :(

Yes, but 7 through 22, plus 28 are some of the ones that moved.

Make sure your antenna is VHF/UHF. If it's UHF only (a lot of the so-called "digital" ones are), then you'll have trouble with 7 through 13. They're on VHF now.

There are certain tuners that require you to go into the menus and manually remove the old channels from the memory before the box can find the new ones. It's a bug.

Another solution that I've heard tell of:

(1) Unplug box.

(2) Unhook antenna.

(3) Plug in box and do a channel scan without antenna.

(4) Unplug box, let it sit for an hour.

(5) Plug box back in and scan yet again.

They say this works. Of course they say a lot of stuff.

EDIT: Oops, 22 didn't move. My bad.

I don't have a box, I am talking about channels that come to the TV (Sony XBR) directly through coax.

I think you might have answered the question yourself. The antenna is 35 years old. It's been hanging out there for 35 years in our fine LA air. Antennas and connections will fail over time. Even though it may look good from the ground, things may not be electrically all that great. Elements in the antenna may not be making contact and the connectors can get flakey. I've seen antenna and/or connectors actually notch out a single channel. It might be time to consider a replacement.

I would agree, except that it worked fine last week and it still works for CBS HD and NBC HD. If the antenna is the problem, likely IMO, it seems to me that it must be related to something that was done in the change-over to all digital. I don't mind replacing the antenna, I agree it is probably a good idea. I just want to know what specific antenna will work since the old one doesn't.

Thanks,
Larry

Narkspud, I did the rescan three times, it was no help with Ch 7 thru 22. Caused me to miss half of the Laker game.

I do not believe rescan is the solution for me.

Thanks,
Larry

Did you ever try analog reception of 7-13 before the changeover, using the same antenna? If so, that might give you some clues as to the problem, i.e., weak signals, multipath, etc.

Heil & Newland, Westminster 92683. Chimney mounted antenna. We received all the local channels prior to Friday. We no longer receive KTTV 11. :mad:

I just did a re-scan today and lost both 11 and 07. I am not seeing any signal from them and I am getting signals for 2 and 4. This actually is the first time I checked since last week so it is possible I have not had them for a while and I would suspect the transition. Anyone actually able to do a scan and receive them. I have them hooked up to a Dish VIP 722 receiver. I am going to check my 612 later tonight.

I did a detailed signal strength comparisons with my HDTV tuners vs. DTV Pal:

With PC's HDTV tuners vs. [DTV Pal Converter Box]:

DB2 BOWTIE up in closet:
KCBS2 = 61-69% [91-93%]
KNBC4 = 96-100% [91-93%]
KTLA5 = 80-85% [88-90%]
KABC7 = 90-100% (sometimes not lockable at first) [low 90%!]
KCAL9 = 100% [91-96%]
KTTV11 = undetected from scan and can't lock [73-74%]
KCOP/UPN13 = 60-67% [73%-76%]
LA18 = undetected from scan and can't lock [73-74%]
KCET28 = 77-84% [85-93%]
ION30 = 100% [93%]
KOCE50 = 61-75% [90%]
KLCS = undetected from scan and can't lock [64-66%]


Interesting, huh?

I did try disconnecting my OTA, rescan to clear out, reboots inbetween scanning and Was not able to get back 7, 9, 11 and 13. Interesting to see you are also having trouble with 7 and 11. As for my Antenna, I have a small directional Channel Master antenna. I think it was a 4308 but I could totally be wrong.

Well after a bit of looking around.. It appears I have a UHF antenna so I would not be able to pick up those low numbers that 7, 9, 11, and 13 are on.. Would that be correct. Dang.. I thought since I was hooked up and receiving them digitally I was cool... Guess I will have to start looking for another small UHF/VHF antenna.

Well after a bit of looking around.. It appears I have a UHF antenna so I would not be able to pick up those low numbers that 7, 9, 11, and 13 are on.. Would that be correct.

Bingo. :(

Seems to be what's needed in an antenna to get to the threshold required for a picture.

At plus 15db:

Getting KABC7 (sometimes), KPXN (pretty good), KAZA (good), KNBC4 (most of the time). And from Santa Barbara Telemundo and Telefutura.

Not sure how to recognize multipath in digital television.

Seems to be what's needed in an antenna to get to the threshold required for a picture.

At plus 15db:

Getting KABC7 (sometimes), KPXN (pretty good), KAZA (good), KNBC4 (most of the time). And from Santa Barbara Telemundo and Telefutura.

Not sure how to recognize multipath in digital television.

You probably can't without special equipment. My only suggestion would be to look at those few LP analog stations you might still find. Unfortunately, they are mostly low-VHF (2,4 and 5) but you might still find something on UHF. In any case, by looking at the picture, you might get a very rough idea of the mutlipath situation.

<snip>
Originally Posted by WeeJavaDude
Well after a bit of looking around.. It appears I have a UHF antenna so I would not be able to pick up those low numbers that 7, 9, 11, and 13 are on.. Would that be correct.

narkspud says:
Bingo. :(

I have the same problem, only with computer TV capture cards MyHD 100 & 130, but do not have the problem with a TiVo S3. All tuners connected to 4 bay bowtie antennas.

I live in a difficult reception area. I have a 2700' peak 3 miles from me directly between my location and Mt Wilson. If you have seen my previous posts I recently moved but only 2 miles and am more firmly behind that peak now. This is actually an improvement because before there was a pass 20 degrees away from the direct path that gave me multipath. Previously I had a Winegard 8200 antenna with a Winegard 8275 preamp on the roof.

Now I have a Winegard 7015 antenna with a Winegard 8275 preamp in the attic. I now get all major channels 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, and 28. However 28 is not watchable even on the best days previously it was solid. 11 is ok on the good days. 13 went from nothing to a great signal. 7 went from barely watchable on the best days to my strongest signal. 2, 4, 5, and 9 were ok before and are ok now. I play to add a distribution amp and maybe that will help.

Has anyone tried the Winegard Squareshooter on upper VHF? I am curious as to how that works.

By the way phildaant. 20 years ago I lived in Diamond Bar just over their hill (not too far from you). With an indoors antenna TV was massively ghosty. I put the cheapest K-Mart antenna on the roof and got a perfect signal on all channels.

Rick R

I have the same problem, only with computer TV capture cards MyHD 100 & 130, but do not have the problem with a TiVo S3. All tuners connected to 4 bay bowtie antennas.How old are those HDTV tuner cards? Mine are from 2005 and supposedly third generation tuners. They don't do well compare to the newer ones. TiVo S3 is newer generation and can handle issues better. :(

I notice the differences between my two old HDTV tuner cards and DTV Pal converter box on the same DB2 antenna.

By the way phildaant. 20 years ago I lived in Diamond Bar just over their hill (not too far from you). With an indoors antenna TV was massively ghosty. I put the cheapest K-Mart antenna on the roof and got a perfect signal on all channels.Rick, yeah I remember seeing my friend's TV with OTA rabbit ears back in the late 80s. He lived on a big hill (bigger than mine!).

Which K-Mart antenna was that? I wonder if that works with today's digital. ;)

I would agree, except that it worked fine last week and it still works for CBS HD and NBC HD. If the antenna is the problem, likely IMO, it seems to me that it must be related to something that was done in the change-over to all digital. I don't mind replacing the antenna, I agree it is probably a good idea. I just want to know what specific antenna will work since the old one doesn't.

Thanks,
Larry

We are now dealing with VHF digital channels. Last week we had all UHF digital channels. Have you tried to dump everthing in the memory and then rescan? Add/Delete should not be used. It needs to totally delete every channel stored in the reciever and find the channels again.

How old are those HDTV tuner cards? Mine are from 2005 and supposedly third generation tuners. They don't do well compare to the newer ones. TiVo S3 is newer generation and can handle issues better. :(

I notice the differences between my two old HDTV tuner cards and DTV Pal converter box on the same DB2 antenna.

The 100 chip is maybe 7 or 8 years old, the 130 5(?)

Interestingly enough, the 100 card which is in a different box, in a different room, with a similar 4 bay bowtie antenna connected to it, does get KABC DT-7. The signal strength is at best 44%, but the picture is stable. The antenna is a foot or two higher but is in an attic, so the signal has to penetrate the rock/tar/wood roof and a plaster wall.

I've noticed on this card since the switch, CBS has a much stronger signal. Before the switch I was lucky to see a 70% signal, now it's in the high 80s to 90s...

If you are not receiving channels you would expect, the first thing to do is rescan. Do not attempt to ADD NEW CHANNELS. Use the initial setup (wizard) as if you moved to another broadcast area. The unit needs to erase all current station assignments. I would do this for some time before using the ADD NEW CHANNELS option.

It seems like some viewers here including myself are having problems receiving KTTV 11 and KCOP 13. Today I tried 3 different antennas HDTVA, Antennas Direct C2 and my trusty Philips MANT310. The HDTVA was able to get around a 4 percent signal but no picture.

I'm trying to figure out if the problem with KTTV/KCOP is widespread and not a local issue, I hate to bug the engineers until I can get concrete proof of a potential problem on their end.

BTW, when they transmitted KCOP on UHF Channel 66 many people online complained about not getting a signal, some believed that it was because they weren't transmitting at full capacity or at least the wattage they stated on the FCC app. I contacted engineering in January 08 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12956596#post12956596) about the problem with KCOP and the person I spoke to told me they never received *any* complaints despite my numerous complaints in 06/07 so I suspect this will be an uphill battle if they're not transmitting at full capacity again.

If you can't get a signal from these two stations give your location, antenna model/location, total channels, signal quality, etc also If you can get a signal let everyone know as well and feel free to use this template. I want to forward the information to the engineers and if necessary the station manager or anyone else who is willing to listen (If there is a problem).


Location: Riverside 92507
Distance from KTTV (34.224722 -118.063056): 44.33 miles
Antenna Model: Philips MANT310
Antenna Location: 2nd story window facing towards Mt Wilson
Total Detected Channels: 68

Signal Quality:
KTTV 11 (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d663dfb67c48f6e%26t%3dALLTV2%26n%3d20) - Unable to lock/No Signal
KCOP 13 (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d663dfb67c48f6e%26t%3dALLTV2%26n%3d17) - Unable to lock/No Signal

Resources:
http://www.getlatlon.com (Used to obtain my coordinates)
http://www.geody.com/geocoordist.php?world=terra&circum=&c1=&c2=34.224722%2C-118.063056 (Page to calculate distance between KTTV (34.224722 -118.063056) and my location)

You can also use http://tvfool.com to show the distance between your location and the transmitter.


KTTV/KCOP is impossible for many of us to receive so I want to thank everyone who participated yesterday, my goal is to have the information compiled and available for the station by Thursday morning.

In the meanwhile I still want people to submit information. If you don't feel comfortable submitting your location in the forum please feel free to submit it to the google survey form I created OTOH if you've already submitted your location here its not necessary to resubmit the information on that form.

I will continue to keep the google map page updated as you continue to submit information also when I try to get the information to the station I'll let you know how it goes but please feel free to submit any information you may have to them on your own.


Google KTTV/KCOP survey form: http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?hl=en&formkey=cnd5ZTVIa3dGMm8wRWJQRGlRQjR0WlE6MA..

Google Map: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ptab=2&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=111375075073614514583.00046c692f5676fb5ed0e

KTTV/KCOP is impossible for many of us to receive so I want to thank everyone who participated yesterday, my goal is to have the information compiled and available for the station by Thursday morning.

In the meanwhile I still want people to submit information. If you don't feel comfortable submitting your location in the forum please feel free to submit it to the google survey form I created OTOH if you've already submitted your location here its not necessary to resubmit the information on that form.

I will continue to keep the google map page updated as you continue to submit information also when I try to get the information to the station I'll let you know how it goes but please feel free to submit any information you may have to them on your own.


Google KTTV/KCOP survey form: http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?hl=en&formkey=cnd5ZTVIa3dGMm8wRWJQRGlRQjR0WlE6MA..

Google Map: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ptab=2&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=111375075073614514583.00046c692f5676fb5ed0eThanks for doing this. I mentioned this map and thread to HDTV newsgroup as well since there are people there talking about this. ;)

Did you ever try analog reception of 7-13 before the changeover, using the same antenna? If so, that might give you some clues as to the problem, i.e., weak signals, multipath, etc.

HarrisonS, Thanks for your comments.

Before the change over on Saturday I was able to get all local channels, including those broadcast in HD OTA. Everything worked fine. Nowthe only local channels I recieve are 2 to 4.4, including 2.1 and 4.1 which are HD.

Thanks again,
Larry

We are now dealing with VHF digital channels. Last week we had all UHF digital channels. Have you tried to dump everthing in the memory and then rescan? Add/Delete should not be used. It needs to totally delete every channel stored in the reciever and find the channels again.

Thanks,

You are suggesting I dump everything in the memory of my television? I am not sure how to do that, it does not appear as a set-up option on any of the menus.

Thanks again,
Larry

Thanks,

You are suggesting I dump everything in the memory of my television? I am not sure how to do that, it does not appear as a set-up option on any of the menus.

Thanks again,
Larry

Disconnect the antenna cable and perform an auto-scan.

That usually will erase the memory.

Then, reconnect the antenna and scan again.

HarrisonS, Thanks for your comments.

Before the change over on Saturday I was able to get all local channels, including those broadcast in HD OTA. Everything worked fine. Nowthe only local channels I recieve are 2 to 4.4, including 2.1 and 4.1 which are HD.

Thanks again,
Larry

Are you saying you lost 21 of your 23 stations?

Hi there

Does anyone out there know how many dB defines the 'Digital cliff'?

A few months back someone had a 8VSB tuner/demodulator evaluation board with some interesting software. Anyway he showed that at -49 dB the signal was still watchable, but at -51 dB lock was lost. So the "cliff" was less than 2dB wide for that demodulator.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1122271

Regards

I was out in Riverside yesterday to check the M-I-L's set and do a re-scan on the Zenith set box. I put the antenna on the roof a couple months ago to get ready for this. It's not a big rig, just a standard small to medium size Winegard type design with UHF Yagi at the front end. The stations come in strong, with the Zenith it's just a sliding bar meter but I'd put it at around 80-90 for most stations. Didn't note any problems. A decent rooftop antenna is important along with good connections and co-ax.

I didn't see mention anywhere that some stations will increase their digital power now that the switchover has occurred. I know that's the case with KCET because the station engineer told me this. Sure enough, my KCET digital became stronger. Our area frequency range covers the spectrum I think, starting with 7.1. For my own, I use the Channelmaster 4228 8-bay and it is strong on all of them including the VHF.

I've paid a lot of attention to picture quality because of the negative effect that the sub channels can have. Oddly enough, when HDTV first started, KCET ch 28 was great but as they have evolved I noticed they dumped their 1080 signal in favor of 720p and there is often a lot of compression artifacting on all channels. I wonder if the KCET signal (main channel) is actually better on the cable and satellite systems, i.e. do they obtain their feeds from them via microwave direct thus eliminating the artifacting?
KCET isn't as much fun to watch any more.

Those are not infomercials!!! They are public service announcements for the late-comers.

Are you saying you lost 21 of your 23 stations?

Before the conversion to digital last Saturday I regularly watched CBS 2.1, NBC 4.1 and 4.4, ABC 7.1, Fox 11.1, KCET 28.1 using OTA reception from a roof top antenna. I know that I had more stations including the network SD stations ch 9, ch 13 and many stations above 13. I do not have a complete inventory cause I didn't watch them.

Since Sunday (I didn't turn the TV on on Saturday) I receive CBS channel 2 in SD only (no 2.1); I get NBC 4 SD 4.1 HD 4.2 SD weather, 4.4 SD sports; KTLA - CW 5 SD, 5.1 HD, 5.2 This; channel 6 ?? fuzzy reception; 8.1 8.2 and 8.4 I don't know what they are. I get ch 22 and several channels above 22 but not KCET 28.1 HD or 28.2 SD.

Bottom line is that I don't know in total numbers what I had and lost. I know I lost CBS HD, ABC HD, Fox HD and KCET HD. The others I really do not care about. I still have NBC HD and Ion HD.

What I would like to know is what do I have to do to get OTA reception for CBS 2.1, ABC 7.1 and KCET 28.1 all in HD?

Thanks,

Thanks,
Larry

I live in a difficult reception area. I have a 2700' peak 3 miles from me directly between my location and Mt Wilson.

I'm just along the road from you (Moorpark) and can't get anything at all. Unless, of course, anyone knows otherwise.....

FYI. No changes on my side. KABC7 is sometimes not lockable on my PC, but nice 90%-100% when it is locked. Did see 17% once when trying to lock. KTTV is still out. :(

Obviously dTV Pal converter box had no issues. Dang computer tuners.

Before the conversion to digital last Saturday I regularly watched CBS 2.1, NBC 4.1 and 4.4, ABC 7.1, Fox 11.1, KCET 28.1 using OTA reception from a roof top antenna. I know that I had more stations including the network SD stations ch 9, ch 13 and many stations above 13. I do not have a complete inventory cause I didn't watch them.

Since Sunday (I didn't turn the TV on on Saturday) I receive CBS channel 2 in SD only (no 2.1); I get NBC 4 SD 4.1 HD 4.2 SD weather, 4.4 SD sports; KTLA - CW 5 SD, 5.1 HD, 5.2 This; channel 6 ?? fuzzy reception; 8.1 8.2 and 8.4 I don't know what they are. I get ch 22 and several channels above 22 but not KCET 28.1 HD or 28.2 SD.

Bottom line is that I don't know in total numbers what I had and lost. I know I lost CBS HD, ABC HD, Fox HD and KCET HD. The others I really do not care about. I still have NBC HD and Ion HD.

What I would like to know is what do I have to do to get OTA reception for CBS 2.1, ABC 7.1 and KCET 28.1 all in HD?

Thanks,

Thanks,
Larry

Channel 2 changed from frequency 60 to 43, so you probably just need to figure out how to clear your tuner's memory. Try disconnecting your antenna and scanning (finding no channels on purpose), and then plug your antenna back in and scan again.

28.1 did a similar frequency hop.

7-13 went from UHF to VHF so depending on your antenna you may not be able to get those back.

I have a DB4 connected to an HDHomerun in 92646 and I can not get 7,9,11, or 13 at all, no signal and no lock.

I learned new stuff about tweaking rabbit ears (interferences, 180 degrees straight, shorten antennae lengths, etc.) from http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16666816#post16666816 thread. So I retested for my PC's HDTV tuners since I know converter box would be fine.

Interesting for the channel 11 (KTTV) that I can't get with DB2 bowtie antenna, but can with Terk rabbit ears. I can tell if the lengths are too short that receiptions are bad. I can tell little differences if the longest to one or two parts/pieces shorters in terms of signal strengths.

At _._ (180 degrees)

Parallel to the Mountains:
24-44% = 29'
33-44% = remove end/thinnest part.
39-51% (shutters closed)/49-65% = remove two end/thinnest part.

Antennae Pointing North and South (window's shutters closed):
44-67% = remove two ends/thinnest parts outside the closet.
43-49% = remove three ends/thinnest parts outside the closet.
48-61% = remove two end/thinnest parts in closet.

However, Terk rabbit ears can't lock on KTLA but can easily with KABC (still 100%). Hmm, maybe I should try a combiner next. Or just switch between antenna when needed. ;)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16668421#post16668421

"For those having a problem receiving KTTV, 11.1, in LA, I found the following on Yahoo Answers from someone who contacted the station --

'I'm in the same boat. I live in central Orange County and can't get it. I spent more than a half hour on hold with KTTV's help line and was told that they are working on the tower.'

Apparently the station is aware of problems."


I asked for the link/URL and here it is: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090614192928AArLm9c ...

Channel 2 changed from frequency 60 to 43, so you probably just need to figure out how to clear your tuner's memory. Try disconnecting your antenna and scanning (finding no channels on purpose), and then plug your antenna back in and scan again.

28.1 did a similar frequency hop.

7-13 went from UHF to VHF so depending on your antenna you may not be able to get those back.

I have a DB4 connected to an HDHomerun in 92646 and I can not get 7,9,11, or 13 at all, no signal and no lock.

I have an DB4 as well and since the switch over I don't get those channels either because the DB4 is a UHF antenna only. Channels 7,9,11 and 13 changed over from UHF to VHF so I will now have to get a UHF/VHF antenna to get the lost channels.

Interesting... I am located in zip code 90034 in West L.A. and I have no problems receiving either channel 11 or 13. I am, however, unable to receive KABC channel 7. It is the only channel I am having any problems with reception. Anyone else in West L.A. having issues receiving KABC?

I'm in Mar Vista 90066. I no longer get channels 7, 9, 11, and 13 using a Philips Silver Sensor UHF antenna.

I'm in Mar Vista 90066. I no longer get channels 7, 9, 11, and 13 using a Philips Silver Sensor UHF antenna.You need VHF for those. Try with a simple rabbit ears. :(

I'm in Mar Vista 90066. I no longer get channels 7, 9, 11, and 13 using a Philips Silver Sensor UHF antenna.

You do need a VHF antenna. I'm in your neighborhood, around Sawtelle and National, and I'd be curious to know how it works out for you. I'm having a tough time getting a reliable signal with a VHF antenna. I have a large picture window where I put my antenna in the direction of Mt. Wilson with no major obstacles and still get choppy reception and nothing on 11.1. We're only 25 miles away - it should be better than this.

You need VHF for those. Try with a simple rabbit ears. :(

Will rabbit ears pick up all the other digital channels as well?

KTTV/KCOP is impossible for many of us to receive so I want to thank everyone who participated yesterday, my goal is to have the information compiled and available for the station by Thursday morning.

In the meanwhile I still want people to submit information. If you don't feel comfortable submitting your location in the forum please feel free to submit it to the google survey form I created OTOH if you've already submitted your location here its not necessary to resubmit the information on that form.

I will continue to keep the google map page updated as you continue to submit information also when I try to get the information to the station I'll let you know how it goes but please feel free to submit any information you may have to them on your own.

Google KTTV/KCOP survey form: http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?hl=en&formkey=cnd5ZTVIa3dGMm8wRWJQRGlRQjR0WlE6MA..

Google Map: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ptab=2&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=111375075073614514583.00046c692f5676fb5ed0e



You have my location a Woodman & Vanowen correct BUT I have an outdoor CM4228 8 bay bowtie antenna UHF only. Lock to 11 (SNR 30 dB Signal Strength -67 dB) and 13 (SNR 29 dB Signal Strength -65 dB) both solid locks. In this area there is edge refraction for some of the stations, I just don't know which ones. You need to correct the Google Map.

I purchased a cheap $10 UHF/VHF/FM antenna from Home depot and got a decent amount of digital stations 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 28, 34, 44, 46, 50, 54, 57, & 58 prior to the transition.

After the transition I got an additional channel, 13 (KCOP), but lost 11 (KTTV). KTTV is my favorite channel :mad:. I do get decent reception with channel 13 but nothing I like to watch on that station.

I hope they fix it soon. From reading this post it looks like KTTV is looking into it.

My zip code is 91384 btw.

Will rabbit ears pick up all the other digital channels as well?

Probably not. You need BOTH VHF and UHF ... IE rabbit ears, plus a loop or bowtie or some other UHF thingy that is not rabbit ears.

They make VHF-UHF combiners, a little plastic thing that will allow you to hook up both at once.

Disconnect the antenna cable and perform an auto-scan.

That usually will erase the memory.

Then, reconnect the antenna and scan again.
Depends on the DTV.....might just keep the old (incorrect) list and try to add new ones....

Also try UNPLUGGING the set, let it sit for 30 seconds before plugging in again and
go through the initial setup menu process...

Will rabbit ears pick up all the other digital channels as well?Probably. Try it, but rabbit ears aren't that strong. At least it picked up KTTV while my bowtie couldn't.

Well, after two days of ATSC tuner re-scanning (for my ATI TV wonder 650 PCI card, JVC DT100U, and Sony 34XBR960) and squaring away the new names and new details of all channels, I thought I'd share my final consolidated spreadsheet of the results.

This is from my off-air building antenna here in Marina Del Rey. Also, stream percentages/bitrates are dynamic and vary by whatever is being transmitted at the time, so these numbers are obviously not hard and fast.

Micro-details derived from TSReader Lite.

Two worksheets, one containing contact phone numbers (for DTV reception problems) and web site addresses, and another containing the detailed specifics on all channels discovered during my scan.

Can anyone get all the channels in the Pasadena area? If so what roof antenna do you have? Is it the best one for this area?

Can you get White Springs Television (old movies and cartoons) and KCLS channel 58 and the subchannels?

I get most of the channels but sometimes channels disappear like 7, 9, 11 and 13 as others have said above. And yes I rescan, rescan, rescan!

Well, after two days of ATSC tuner re-scanning (for my ATI TV wonder 650 PCI card, JVC DT100U, and Sony 34XBR960) and squaring away the new names and new details of all channels, I thought I'd share my final consolidated spreadsheet of the results.

This is from my off-air building antenna here in Marina Del Rey. Also, stream percentages/bitrates are dynamic and vary by whatever is being transmitted at the time, so these numbers are obviously not hard and fast.

Micro-details derived from TSReader Lite.

Two worksheets, one containing contact phone numbers (for DTV reception problems) and web site addresses, and another containing the detailed specifics on all channels discovered during my scan.

My god, you made a science fair project out of watching television. What type of antenna do you use?

Thanks for the effort,
Larry

Well, after two days of ATSC tuner re-scanning (for my ATI TV wonder 650 PCI card, JVC DT100U, and Sony 34XBR960) and squaring away the new names and new details of all channels, I thought I'd share my final consolidated spreadsheet of the results.

This is from my off-air building antenna here in Marina Del Rey. Also, stream percentages/bitrates are dynamic and vary by whatever is being transmitted at the time, so these numbers are obviously not hard and fast.

Micro-details derived from TSReader Lite.

Two worksheets, one containing contact phone numbers (for DTV reception problems) and web site addresses, and another containing the detailed specifics on all channels discovered during my scan.Wow! Very detailed.

Thanks for doing this. I mentioned this map and thread to HDTV newsgroup as well since there are people there talking about this. ;)

KTTV/KCOP is impossible for many of us to receive so I want to thank everyone who participated yesterday, my goal is to have the information compiled and available for the station by Thursday morning.

In the meanwhile I still want people to submit information. If you don't feel comfortable submitting your location in the forum please feel free to submit it to the google survey form I created OTOH if you've already submitted your location here its not necessary to resubmit the information on that form.

I will continue to keep the google map page updated as you continue to submit information also when I try to get the information to the station I'll let you know how it goes but please feel free to submit any information you may have to them on your own.


Google KTTV/KCOP survey form: http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?hl=en&formkey=cnd5ZTVIa3dGMm8wRWJQRGlRQjR0WlE6MA..

Google Map: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&gl=us&ptab=2&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=111375075073614514583.00046c692f5676fb5ed0e


I know I've said it before but I really want to thank everyone who responded in the forum and participated in the survey I also want to thank users like phildaant who helped get the word out about the survey.

The response has been amazing and we've received a great amount of data but I still want to get more data by 9AM tomorrow when I try to contact the station.

By the way, I know KTTV/KCOP might have said they are aware of the problem but I'm not confident with that answer until I know they've seen the data you're submitted or preferably acknowledge the signal issue on their website (http://www.myfoxla.com/dpp/entertainment/television/DTV_Switch).

When they tell callers that they are aware of a problem or in my case said "I'll have them (engineering) call you back" and never actually did, we don't know if they're just saying that to get us off the line or if they're sincerely committed to resolving the signal issue.

In any event I will be updating the map tonight and releasing percentage data from the survey tomorrow morning also I'll keep you updated as I try to contact the station around 9AM.

I know I've said it before but I really want to thank everyone who responded in the forum and participated in the survey I also want to thank users like phildaant who helped get the word out about the survey.

The response has been amazing and we've received a great amount of data but I still want to get more data by 9AM tomorrow when I try to contact the station.

By the way, I know KTTV/KCOP might have said they are aware of the problem but I'm not confident with that answer until I know they've seen the data you're submitted or preferably acknowledge the signal issue on their website (http://www.myfoxla.com/dpp/entertainment/television/DTV_Switch).

When they tell callers that they are aware of a problem or in my case said "I'll have them (engineering) call you back" and never actually did, we don't know if they're just saying that to get us off the line or if they're sincerely committed to resolving the signal issue.

In any event I will be updating the map tonight and releasing percentage data from the survey tomorrow morning also I'll keep you updated as I try to contact the station around 9AM.Good job and agreed on your comments. :)

Hi there

By the way, I know KTTV/KCOP might have said they are aware of the problem but I'm not confident with that answer until I know they've seen the data you're submitted or preferably acknowledge the signal issue on their website (http://www.myfoxla.com/dpp/entertainment/television/DTV_Switch).

I did not tally the numbers, but it appeared that the majority of responses that could not receive KTTV-DT and/or KCOP-DT did not describe their antenna, or were using a UHF antenna. I would expect that these responses/datapoints to be dismissed or ignored.

Perhaps one item could be added to the poll: Were you receiving analog channels 11 and/or 13 with the current antenna setup that now cannot receive the digital channels? (Receiving the pre-switchover digital 11.1 and/or 13.1 doesn't count.) Persons who can answer "yes" to this question can claim loss of service, and makes a more compelling argument that KTTV and KCOP have lost viewers.

Regards

Perhaps one item could be added to the poll: Were you receiving analog channels 11 and/or 13 with the current antenna setup that now cannot receive the digital channels? (Receiving the pre-switchover digital 11.1 and/or 13.1 doesn't count.) Persons who can answer "yes" to this question can claim loss of service, and makes a more compelling argument that KTTV and KCOP have lost viewers.I can answer this one. I had no problems with my analog channels 11 and 13 with both rabbit ears and bowtie antennae separately.

Yes indeed, good job Frontlyne in gathering this data.

FWIW i'm in Wildomar which is 63 miles from the transmitters & reception is fine here.

Roof top antennas are a 91-XG & a YA-1713 tied together by an CM-77 pre amp.

UHF reception from the 91-XG on channels 2.1/83% 4.1/92% 5.1/92% 28.1/84% 56.1/88%

VHF reception from the YA-1713 on channels 7.1/72% 9.1/63% 11.1/65% 13.1/63%.

If all else fails for you guys, the YA-1713 "should" do the trick for these lower powered VHF signals.

Can anyone get all the channels in the Pasadena area? If so what roof antenna do you have? Is it the best one for this area?

Can you get White Springs Television (old movies and cartoons) and KCLS channel 58 and the subchannels?

I get most of the channels but sometimes channels disappear like 7, 9, 11 and 13 as others have said above. And yes I rescan, rescan, rescan!

I live in Pasadena, I'm using an indoor antenna and I can get 58.1-58.4 but not 8.1 WST. I only have 60% signal strength and 0% signal quality on CH 8.1:(, not enough to get a lock. 7,9,11,13 are fine for me:).

...VHF reception from the YA-1713 on channels 7.1/72% 9.1/63% 11.1/65% 13.1/63%.

If all else fails for you guys, the YA-1713 "should" do the trick for these lower powered VHF signals.

I agree. The YA-1713 is about the best possible way to go, since it is specialized and optimized for just chs 7-13 only. I am in the Granada Hills/Porter Ranch area, about 25-30 miles from Mt. Wilson, but it is not line-of-sight here. The YA-1713 is doing an excellent job here, and I think that those having serious problems with the VHF channels simply need to upgrade their antennas. Still, I think stations like KTTV and KCOP in particular need to increase power to accomodate more people who are restricted to indoor antennas.

What type of antenna do you use?I don't recall, but I think it's a decent but common Winegard that's mounted on the elevator shack on top of the roof of my building (3-story apartment).

I know we had to replace that antenna somewhere around 9-13 years ago, either just before the 1996 Atlanta Olympics or just before the 2000 Sydney Olympics. The maintenance guy just went to Home Depot and bought an antenna and then installed it himself.... pretty casually.

After he did the installation I actually called a regular antenna guy to come and rotate the antenna slightly in its mountings so that we got NBC (analog) optimally, meaning minimal ghosting. I was on the cell phone with him on the roof, and I was watching the picture on my kitchen TV while he jimmied the antenna a tiny bit at a time until I had the best picture. Not very technical, I'm afraid, and it was real seat-of-the-pants. But I wanted the Olympics to come in great (I was still using OTA analog SD VCR's at that time).

Anyway, it's a nothing-extraordinary antenna, but its 3rd-floor-plus height here in MDR with nothing obstructing reception from Mt.W provides pretty excellent reception.

I'm in Mar Vista 90066. I no longer get channels 7, 9, 11, and 13 using a Philips Silver Sensor UHF antenna.

You need VHF for those. Try with a simple rabbit ears. :(

You do need a VHF antenna. I'm in your neighborhood, around Sawtelle and National, and I'd be curious to know how it works out for you. I'm having a tough time getting a reliable signal with a VHF antenna. I have a large picture window where I put my antenna in the direction of Mt. Wilson with no major obstacles and still get choppy reception and nothing on 11.1. We're only 25 miles away - it should be better than this.

I do not think this is correct. I'm in zip code 90025. One block west of Bundy, between Santa Monica Bl and Wilshire Bl. I have a Zenith Silver Sensor located on my pation and a Sony KDSR50XBR1.

My tuner is able to tune in both 7.1 and 9.1. 7.1 locks in albeit at only 67 signal strength. 9.1 is found but fails to lock in. Not so the case for either 11.1 or 13.1. It is as if they don't exist. One thing that appears to be the case with my situation is that VHF I have to repoint my antenna a lot to find the sweet spot that picks up the maximum number of channels. It is definitely a work in progress. A thing that complicates the issue is the construction that has been going on right next door to me for a year now. Since it began I lost KVCR completely. For months now they have had these metal frameworks around the building that wreak havoc on my reception. :(
Here's what I have to deal with:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=145697&stc=1&d=1245338660

Rudy

Hi there



I did not tally the numbers, but it appeared that the majority of responses that could not receive KTTV-DT and/or KCOP-DT did not describe their antenna, or were using a UHF antenna. I would expect that these responses/datapoints to be dismissed or ignored.

Perhaps one item could be added to the poll: Were you receiving analog channels 11 and/or 13 with the current antenna setup that now cannot receive the digital channels? (Receiving the pre-switchover digital 11.1 and/or 13.1 doesn't count.) Persons who can answer "yes" to this question can claim loss of service, and makes a more compelling argument that KTTV and KCOP have lost viewers.

Regards


This is why I asked viewers how many channels they've been able to detect. Many users said in the survey and here in the forum that they've been able to receive other channels but KTTV's signal is none existent. I know with my UHF/VHF antenna every channel that i was able to receive here in Riverside prior to the switch still comes in fine except KTTV which leads me to believe that they are broadcasting at considerably lower power than other channels now whether or not that is true, we'll find out soon enough (hopefully).

When I decided to collect this information I did not set out to be entirely scientific I know there could be other issues that may not be on KTTV's end but I just wanted to know if I was the only person having problems with this station, if not which areas are having problems. I also wanted to get a general sense of which areas were being affected.

Compared to stations like KDOC and KCBS, KTTV/KCOP engineers are very hard to contact and never respond this is why I wanted as much data as possible to give them a visual of trouble spots they can easily investigate if it from the ground if necessary also I wanted that information available for all to see which is only fair.

As for the data 54% of you who responded to the survey* live in Los Angeles County, 39% in Orange County, 6% in Riverside County and 2% in San Diego. No one responded from Ventura, San Bernardino or Kern County.

65% reported no signal from KTTV while 56% reported no signal from KCOP


KTTV:
No signal 65%
1-10 percent 6%
11-20 percent 7%
21-30 percent 4%
31-40 percent 2%
41-50 percent 2%
51-60 percent 2%
61-70 percent 2%
71-80 percent 0%
81-90 percent 4%
91-100 percent 7%

KCOP:
No signal 56%
1-10 percent 4%
11-20 percent 4%
21-30 percent 2%
31-40 percent 9%
41-50 percent 2%
51-60 percent 7%
61-70 percent 4%
71-80 percent 0%
81-90 percent 6%
91-100 percent 7%


* As of 6/18/2009 at 8:35 AM. Totals/Percentages only includes users who responded to the survey.

At 9:14 AM I tried reach the station through the DTV Hotline (866-620-9089) but a recorded message said I called outside of normal business hours and instructed me to call back between 9AM and 9PM. :mad:

I'm trying the main business number now.

Edit: I tried the main number (310-584-2000), they transferred me over to someone's voicemail. I'll try the DTV hotline again in 10 mns.
Edit: Still getting that message when I call the DTV Hotline (866-620-9089) and press 0.

At 9:14 AM I tried reach the station through the DTV Hotline (866-620-9089) but a recorded message said I called outside of normal business hours and instructed me to call back between 9AM and 9PM. :mad:

I'm trying the main business number now.

Edit: I tried the main number (310-584-2000), they transferred me over to someone's voicemail. I'll try the DTV hotline again in 10 mns.
Edit: Still getting that message when I call the DTV Hotline (866-620-9089) and press 0.Maybe we all need to call them about our issues. I'd do it but I have speech and hearing impediments to use a phone. :(

I added my signal information to the survey.
I am in Thousand Oaks, Ventura County and using a CM4228 with added VHF elements.

UHF 2/100% 4/100% 5/100% 28/67%
VHF 7/30% 9/51% 11/26% 13/18%

I finally reached KTTV at the 866 number and he said they're working on the towers and we should be able to get a signal sometime next week probably Tuesday or Wednesday.

I forgot to ask if they had any plans to mention the signal issue on their website so I called 5 mins later and the person said she was not sure but she'll pass the idea along.

Edit: BTW, If any of you call them and they tell you something different about fixing this please let us know.

I finally reached KTTV at the 866 number and he said they're working on the towers and we should be able to get a signal sometime next week probably Tuesday or Wednesday.

I forgot to ask if they had any plans to mention the signal issue on their website so I called 5 mins later and the person said she was not sure but she'll pass the idea along.

Edit: BTW, If any of you call them and they tell you something different about fixing this please let us know.Thank you, FrontLyne! Were you able to send the details you collected or anything?

I hope we see something changed next week. If you guys see anything different, then please post in here! :)

I added my signal information to the survey.
I am in Thousand Oaks, Ventura County and using a CM4228 with added VHF elements.

UHF 2/100% 4/100% 5/100% 28/67%
VHF 7/30% 9/51% 11/26% 13/18%
Added VHF elements??????

Added VHF elements??????

I was not sure how to describe it so here is a picture, the "Added VHF elements (coat hanger metal and rabbit ears)" are hard to see so I colored them in the second image.

I used the SNR from my receiver to adjust, cut and position the elements.

I too tried repeatedly rescanning, including double scanning, but I could get channels 11 and 13. My Insignia converter box does have the option to manually add channels. Using this feature I first tuned to ch. 11 and using the onscreen signal strength meter was able to move my indoor antenna until it locked on, I and then added the station to the list. I repeated this for ch. 13. I then moved the antenna back to the closet and adjusted it until I could get 11 and 13 plus the 65 channels! Moving the antenna by even a few inches can make the difference, but you might not know that by just rescanning.
So I now have 67 channels with an indoor antenna (Terk HD) in Sherman Oaks
Zipcode 90023

I'm just along the road from you (Moorpark) and can't get anything at all. Unless, of course, anyone knows otherwise.....

My OTA difficulty is due to the fact that I am in the East end of Simi so near the Santa Susana peaks. Others in West Simi have reported a much easier time in getting OTA. Since Moorpark is further away from the Santa Susana peaks you should get OTA with a good rooftop antenna unless you are behind a big hill.

Rick R

So I now have 67 channels with an indoor antenna (Terk HD) in Sherman Oaks
Zipcode 90023Sounds excellent. I got 71 here in MDR (90292) with a building antenna on the roof.

An interesting article just came up that addresses the specific problem of now receiving VHF after the transition: http://www.tvnewsday.com/articles/2009/06/18/daily.5/

It seems like they realize that some stations are underpowered. My favorite part is:

Engineers in the business were saying 10 years ago that the way the FCC is going about it has nothing to do with the real world," says Oded Bendov, president of TV Transmission Antenna Group and winner of the NAB TV engineer achievement award winner of 2005.

In making its channel and power allocations, the FCC used "an ideal [digital] receiver that doesn't exist connected to an antenna that doesn't exist and software to way over-predict service that was never validated in the field.

Bendov says the FCC also did not adequately test DTV with indoor antennas.

An interesting article just came up that addresses the specific problem of now receiving VHF after the transition: http://www.tvnewsday.com/articles/2009/06/18/daily.5/

Anyone know what this quote is referring to? "There's a special problem for VHF stations. If you connect [indoor antennas] to a DTV converter box, they actually degrade the performance of the receiver quite considerably. The receiver suffers a punch in the stomach when it's connected to these antennas."

That's the first I've heard that converter boxes don't like indoor (VHF?) antennas.


Patty

Anyone know what this quote is referring to? "There's a special problem for VHF stations. If you connect [indoor antennas] to a DTV converter box, they actually degrade the performance of the receiver quite considerably. The receiver suffers a punch in the stomach when it's connected to these antennas."

That's the first I've heard that converter boxes don't like indoor (VHF?) antennas.That was weird to me too. My HDTV tuners (2005) do poorly with VHF (Terk rabbit ears), but my DTV Pal converter box (2008) did better.

I think they mean to say "compared to an outdoor antenna." Or something.

It's definitely a confusing line.

- Trip

I think they mean to say "compared to an outdoor antenna." Or something.

I dunno. "They actually degrade the performance of the receiver quite considerably" sounds like a real problem, not just the expected "they don't work as well as an outdoor antenna" comparison.


Patty

I dunno. "They actually degrade the performance of the receiver quite considerably" sounds like a real problem, not just the expected "they don't work as well as an outdoor antenna" comparison.


Patty

I did a little googling and I think that bit might refer to low-band VHF reception issues. The article is here: http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/11506
That part you're questioning belongs to Oded Bendov, who also commented much about problems with indoor antennas in the article I just link to above.

THE VSWR FACTOR

Dr. Oded Bendov, one of the authors of the comprehensive study on DTV reception I used as a guide for determining appropriate signal DTV levels for the study in my March article, added another item to consider when deciding to move from UHF to low-VHF. If most of your viewers will be using an indoor antenna, VSWR could be a problem. Oded pointed out that, "Indoor antennas have very high VSWR at VHF thus raising the in-situ noise figure to a point where SNR is below or near threshold even without interference present." He also noted that while new "smart" antennas are being designed for indoor use, they are designed for high-band VHF and UHF, not the lower VHF channels

It might not be relevant because, as I understand (correct me if I'm wrong), these channels in LA utilize high-band VHF. I think the more recent article “VHF Throws Wrench In DTV Transition” (http://www.tvnewsday.com/articles/2009/06/18/daily.5/?page=1) makes a more valid point; they shouldn’t have even utilized VHF at all.

Anyone watching channel 3 K59AO or channel 12 K67AO? I think these are coming from Wrightwood. TV Fool shows I have a line of sight, but I haven't turned my attic antenna to see if I get anything. I think I read that they were translators for ABC & NBC? Are there any sub channels?

It might not be relevant because, as I understand (correct me if I'm wrong), these channels in LA utilize high-band VHF. I think the more recent article “VHF Throws Wrench In DTV Transition” (http://www.tvnewsday.com/articles/2009/06/18/daily.5/?page=1) makes a more valid point; they shouldn’t have even utilized VHF at all.


I disagree. The move to high VHF has brought a very signicicant improvenent in reception and stability of the signals. Prior to the move, I could not receive KCOP here at all and KTTV only under favorable weather conditions, and, even then, it would often break up. Now both are very solid and stable. This also holds for the lower UHF channels, at least for KCET which moved from ch 59 to ch 28. My only criticism now is that many of these stations seem to be a bit underpowered.

Point taken, the issue is probably more complex with lots of variables to consider. You have an outdoor antenna, right? I’m sure it’s difficult to make everyone happy but I’m annoyed that it seems like there was no thought put into how this would affect indoor antenna reception. This is a huge metropolis, one of the largest markets in the US, and I and my friends can’t receive two of the major TV networks OTA within the city limits.

Anyone know what this quote is referring to? "There's a special problem for VHF stations. If you connect [indoor antennas] to a DTV converter box, they actually degrade the performance of the receiver quite considerably. The receiver suffers a punch in the stomach when it's connected to these antennas."

That's the first I've heard that converter boxes don't like indoor (VHF?) antennas.

Patty
One important, and frequently overlooked problem is VSWR.
And (too short) VHF Rabbit Ears have very poor VSWR.
Which can degrade digital reception.
[Yes, an HDTV antenna IS different than an Analog TV antenna....]

Dr Bendov (Dielectric TX Antennas, you are probably watching one now)
et.al. showed how the VSWR had to be very carefully controlled in DTV transmitters,
(including feedback mechanisms), otherwise the EVM (Error Vector Magnitude)
became excessive. VSWR mismatch in the receive antenna and attached tuner
is described as causing an increase in the Noise Figure, although in reality
the adaptive equalizer is overwhelmed trying to "fix" the multipath reflections
up & down the coax lead which degrades ability to equalize on-air multipath:
http://www.tvantenna.tv/papers/PFactorsV.pdf
http://www.tvantenna.tv/papers/dtv%20coverage%20and%20service%20prediction.pdf

================================
The ILLR propagation prediction program used to calculate coverage areas has problems.

FCC's SHVERA proceedings addressed whether the current ILLR propagation
prediction program was "adequate" to determine whether a viewer was SUPPOSED
to receive local OTA signals and hence could be denied access to NATIONAL
networks via SAT. [Really....I'm NOT making this stuff up.....]

Earlier some had tried to include Clutter Loss into the ILLR program, but it was
highly watered down in great contrast to what is standard in commercial programs:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-00-185A1.pdf
This is important to predicting signal levels in Urban areas.

Dr Bendov had a few choice comments:
http://www.tvantenna.tv/papers/paper1999.asp
And Echostar hired Hammett & Edison, who also made some very good points:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-199A3.pdf
All of which were ignored.....

So the "planning factors" assume OUTDOOR, medium gain antennas, zero VSWR,
zero VHF clutter loss, idealized transmit antenna coverage and pretty much ignore
VHF man-made impulse noise (which could be 10-20+ higher)....& lightning storms.
Only saving grace is they didn't include use of Preamp for UHF in fringe regions....

Oh, BTW, reliability statistics assume a Location variability of 50% and a Time
variability of 90% with the percent confidence set at 50%....see OET-69 and 72:
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/documents/bulletins/
which finds the MEDIAN in the distribution curve (so 50% of listeners are WORSE)....
for 90% of the Time....which begs the question what to do during the 10% outage
times, which are just too short for a snack break....

Re Man Made Noise: I read somewhere that a number of years ago TV reception in Taiwan
was being severely degraded (you know the place where they develop, test & build TVs).
The culprit was an unusually noisy, but very popular arc-welding set that required an
island-wide mod program (can you imagine!!!!! they're everywhere, they're everywhere....)

And how do you trace something like that???? TV Band (WSD) Devices come to mind.....

Tom Schmidt did a great analysis of his setup with the research.

http://www.tschmidt.com and go to the TV part.

He put the whole system together in October 2008. Nice job.

Tom Schmidt did a great analysis of his setup with the research.

http://www.tschmidt.com and go to the TV part.

He put the whole system together in October 2008. Nice job.Where exactly is this link? I don't see anything about TV. Lots of network links though.

From the new CGC Communicator (not online yet):

" GENERAL NOTES ON THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA DTV TRANSITION

There are no large and unexpected problems associated with
the southern California DTV transition according to informed
sources and e-mails reaching our office. There are a number of
small fires and some unexplained oddities, but that is to be
expected. Our problems are nothing compared to those in,
say, Chicago.

Proper rescanning (with the old channel memory dumped) and
antenna adjustments seem to have solved perhaps 50-60% of viewer
complaints. However, mentally impaired viewers unable to deal
with DTV converter boxes constitute an ongoing challenge for TV
stations, and even some informed viewers are still having trouble
coming to grips with the new DTV landscape. As one frustrated
viewer put it, "Why can't I just put in the channel number and
watch TV?"

Turning to another subject, there is a question of whether
high-band VHF channels now used for DTV in Los Angeles (Channels
7, 9, 11 & 13) are as robust as UHF for building penetration.
While a land-mobile engineer might say that UHF penetrates best,
the jury is still out on this important question for L.A. DTV.

Some people, even professional antenna installers, were under
the mistaken impression that Los Angeles would become a UHF-only
DTV market, so a number of viewers were totally unprepared to re-
ceive high-band VHF when DTV lit up. That was strike one against
VHF in the minds of many, but the judgement was premature.

Strike two came from folks using indoor rabbit ear antennas
with fully extend telescoping elements. Little did they know that
fully extended elements, while fine for low-band VHF Channels
2-6, were lousy for high-band VHF reception. Once they shortened
the elements to 14 inches each, reception markedly improved.

First time DTV viewers are of course just beginning to come
to grips with the digital cliff edge effect where either a perfect
picture is received, or no picture at all, regardless of whether
VHF or UHF transmission is used. A viewer with an indoor antenna
is particularly vulnerable to deep signal fades caused by people
moving about near the antenna and interfering with the incoming
waves. That's one reason why an elevated outdoor antenna is best.

The large issue looming for southern California is summertime
temperature inversion layer ducting where signals from Tijuana,
San Diego and Los Angeles will invade each others markets. CGC
is already suggesting that co-channel DTV stations institute
precision frequency offsets to counter this well known problem.
Our office has already started to work with those clients who
are most likely to be affected."

Tom Schmidt's

http://www.tschmidt.com click on writings below left. Then TV.
Hope you find it. There are other nice things there.

Link is under writings:
http://www.tschmidt.com/writings/Design%20and%20install%20outdoor%20TV%20antenna.pdf
After briefly glancing at it he has good methodology and design,
but (fortunately) didn't have a bunch of strong local stations so
didn't have to worry about Preamp overload....

Fun while it lasted?

KNLA digital (20.1) has vanished. For those missing their daily dose of out-of-focus, analog 27 is still there.

Point taken, the issue is probably more complex with lots of variables to consider. You have an outdoor antenna, right? I’m sure it’s difficult to make everyone happy but I’m annoyed that it seems like there was no thought put into how this would affect indoor antenna reception. This is a huge metropolis, one of the largest markets in the US, and I and my friends can’t receive two of the major TV networks OTA within the city limits.

I did had some hands-on experience with rabbit-ear indoor antennas and DTV. Last Sunday afternoon I helped a friend by setting up her TV with a converter box in her Sherman Oaks apartment. After setup and scanning, the setup picked up, as I recall, about 58 channels including subchannels. And on VHF it was only having a real problem with ch 13. And very likely, with some adjustments, that can be brought in too.

Anyone know what this quote is referring to? "There's a special problem for VHF stations. If you connect [indoor antennas] to a DTV converter box, they actually degrade the performance of the receiver quite considerably. The receiver suffers a punch in the stomach when it's connected to these antennas."

That's the first I've heard that converter boxes don't like indoor (VHF?) antennas.


Patty

Perhaps they are referring to amplified antennas raising the noise floor, especially if they receive VHF which tends to have more noise?

Here is a review of a Terk HDTVa, which shows what happened to the noise floor when the amp was used:

http://hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/ThreeFor.html

The part of interest is near the bottom.

As well as the HDTVa performed, it also raised the high-band VHF noise floor by 20 dB or so, indicating the presence of some type of broadband RF emitter nearby. Perhaps that was a computer, or a security system sensor. (I’ve even seen high-band VHF RF emissions from a hand-held HD camcorder, believe it or not!)

My On-Air GT USB tuner seems to create noise that interferes with upper VHF. I always had noise on analog 9 when using the On-Air GT that didn't appear on other tuners with exact same conditions.

Prior to the move, I could not receive KCOP here at all and KTTV only under favorable weather conditions, and, even then, it would often break up. Now both are very solid and stable.Same experience here in MDR with KCOP-DT. Previously unobtainable. Now at 95% for me, which means I can now watch Seinfeld in HD on my computer.

Perhaps they are referring to amplified antennas raising the noise floor, especially if they receive VHF which tends to have more noise?

Here is a review of a Terk HDTVa, which shows what happened to the noise floor when the amp was used:

http://hdtvexpert.com/pages_c/ThreeFor.html

The part of interest is near the bottom.

My On-Air GT USB tuner seems to create noise that interferes with upper VHF. I always had noise on analog 9 when using the On-Air GT that didn't appear on other tuners with exact same conditions.
The only thing the photos show is that a 20 dB Gain Preamp will raise ALL signals
by 20 dB...including the desired VHF channels....the REAL question is whether
the overall Signal to Noise Ratio improved or not....
Some seem to have remained the same and at least one didn't....

I'm finding the "sweet spot" on my Terk ears and am able to get every major broadcaster in a quality that is watchable and without my need to adjust anything between channel switching. I may not peg 100% on every channel but if it's not artifacting or losing signal who cares right? KABC dances around 50% but keeps a stable lock, KTTV is a solid 50-60%, KCAL booms in 100% and KCOP hovers around 70%. The UHF broadcasters have always been reliant. The key for the indoor ears is height. The difference of a well placed phone book underneath the ears changed reception greatly across the board. Who knows, it might work for some of you too.

Hello,

I hope someone here can help me choose the proper antenna for uhf/vhf.

I'm in El Monte, 91732, two blocks north of Peck and Ramona.

I"m using EyeTV 250 Plus on my iMac.

I've already tried a Terk indoor antenna and received no signal at all. Before randomly buying/trying others, I thought it best to check with the knowledgeable people here.

I'm in a single-story wooden back house surrounded by VERY large trees. The front house is a two-story unit, which is immediately east of me (within two feet of my eastern wall). Large trees overhang my house from the south and north-west.

I have no direct line of sight to Mt. Wilson. The view is blocked by the trees.

Eight feet North of me is a brick and glass workshop building, single story.

El Monte Airport is a bit over a mile away, to the West.

TV Fool says 'green' on most of my channels, but the Terk did not work.

I am a 50 yr. old single female, handicapped, and rooftop installation will be very difficult for me. I cannot afford professional installation. I need to find an antenna that will be easy to install, perhaps on a j-mount from my eaves. I cannot get on the roof safely.

I'm wondering if a Winegard MS-2002 or a Channel Master 3010 might be appropriate? If not, please suggest another small unit that's easy to assemble and install.

Thank you very much.

Hello,

I hope someone here can help me choose the proper antenna for uhf/vhf.

I'm in El Monte, 91732, two blocks north of Peck and Ramona.

I"m using EyeTV 250 Plus on my iMac.

I've already tried a Terk indoor antenna and received no signal at all. Before randomly buying/trying others, I thought it best to check with the knowledgeable people here.

I'm in a single-story wooden back house surrounded by VERY large trees. The front house is a two-story unit, which is immediately east of me (within two feet of my eastern wall). Large trees overhang my house from the south and north-west.

I have no direct line of sight to Mt. Wilson. The view is blocked by the trees.

Eight feet North of me is a brick and glass workshop building, single story.

El Monte Airport is a bit over a mile away, to the West.

TV Fool says 'green' on most of my channels, but the Terk did not work.

I am a 50 yr. old single female, handicapped, and rooftop installation will be very difficult for me. I cannot afford professional installation. I need to find an antenna that will be easy to install, perhaps on a j-mount from my eaves. I cannot get on the roof safely.

I'm wondering if a Winegard MS-2002 or a Channel Master 3010 might be appropriate? If not, please suggest another small unit that's easy to assemble and install.

Thank you very much.

Run by (or call or check their website) a BEST BUY store and try a ClearStream 2. Pick up a length of cable (if you need it - not included). Place it in a north-facing window and give it a try. If it doesn't work, it's easy to return.

Thank you Project,

It's my understanding the the ClearStream is UHF only. Is that correct?

In fact, I was considering a Clearstream 2 until I read it only picked up UHF signals.

I'm a noob. Please forgive my ignorance.

Jewel

Thank you Project,

It's my understanding the the ClearStream is UHF only. Is that correct?

I want to receive both UHF and VHF in one antenna.

Jewel

It still receives some high-VHF signal although not at the same capability as it has for UHF. In open areas with a decently powered transmitter, it's usually good for at least 20 miles on high-VHF.

At only 10 miles from Mt Wilson but with your local obstacle, it's still worth a try.

KNLA 20-1 is back on the air ... as a smorgasbord or your favorite low-power stations!

Now in addition to KNLA, they are also carrying 20-2 KNET (analog 25) and 20-3 KHTV (analog 67). They've fixed their audio issues. Picutre quality is still bleahh, and on KNET it's ghastly (it may be the source material though).

The lock has NOT been solid since I found them this afternoon, which saddens me (a little). Bitrates are in the 4-5 Mbps range.

For those who aren't familiar with KHTV ... it's 24-hour Home Shopping Network. I'm not very familiar with KNET myself - their analog never did come in here worth a toot - but what I've been able to make out in the past has been all paid programs, with a mixture of religion and the usual Turbo-Juicer junk.

Happy home shopping!

Thank you, FrontLyne! Were you able to send the details you collected or anything?

I hope we see something changed next week. If you guys see anything different, then please post in here! :)

Its my pleasure BTW when I called Thursday I offered to send them the data, thats when he told me that they're working on the tower.

Since they said it is going to be fixed it in such a short amount of time I decided not to press it but I did leave a message for someone in engineering and I sent them a message from the site (http://www.myfoxla.com/subindex/about_us/contact_us). I also tried to contact the DTV hotline (http://www.myfoxla.com/dpp/entertainment/television/DTV_Switch) again today to try an pass along the data but no one answered.

I have my doubts about what he told me but we'll see by next week Wednesday/Thursday morning.

BTW, I incorporated the map, survey and other tools all into one page http://sites.google.com/site/kttvkcop/

Well, after a lot of tweaking and prodding with my antenna, I'm finally able to get KTTV again. Most of it was collapsing the ears, but I did have to get the angle properly positioned as well.

Now about the only channel I can't pick up is channel 8, but I've never managed to anyway. Still, with my new configuration my TV and converter box both hung on detection at channel 8, meaning they saw something there, they just didn't lock in on it.

Well, after a lot of tweaking and prodding with my antenna, I'm finally able to get KTTV again. Most of it was collapsing the ears, but I did have to get the angle properly positioned as well.Were your rabbit ears antenna flat (180 degrees) for KTTV?

Were your rabbit ears antenna flat (180 degrees) for KTTV?

I tried that, but it didn't work.

My bedroom window faces North, and I have my antenna right near the window. I have the left ear down flat, I'd say parallel with the window, while the right ear I have up, but turned left enough so that it comes to a rest against the UHF loop in the middle. I'd say overall it's about a 45 degree angle. For me, that touching has been the key to getting KTTV. Maybe the combination of the loop and ear make it strong enough for a pickup.

Just for reference, I have a Philips Amplified Antenna. This one:

http://www.amazon.com/Philips-MANT-310-Amplified-Indoor-Antenna/dp/B00086HU9K

I tried that, but it didn't work.

My bedroom window faces North, and I have my antenna right near the window. I have the left ear down flat, I'd say parallel with the window, while the right ear I have up, but turned left enough so that it comes to a rest against the UHF loop in the middle. I'd say overall it's about a 45 degree angle. For me, that touching has been the key to getting KTTV. Maybe the combination of the loop and ear make it strong enough for a pickup.

Just for reference, I have a Philips Amplified Antenna. This one:

http://www.amazon.com/Philips-MANT-310-Amplified-Indoor-Antenna/dp/B00086HU9KAh, you have the circle piece.

I wonder if making my Terk antennae touch bowtie will do anything. I never tried that for digital. I did try it for analog. Sometimes made worse, better, or unchanged depending on channels.

Since the switchover, the signal strength for digital seems to have become more unstable. I am in the Los Angeles/Orange Co. area. Anybody else encounter this, or are all of your major locals coming in strong and consistent across the board?

Prior to the switchover, things were looking ok for getting all channels (and I assume a lot of stations were still not even pumping full power). All they had to do is maintain at least this level of performance when we go all digital, and I would have said everything is going to go fine. However, all channels seem to be a mess, now. Some are stronger (particularly NBC which is nearly filling the meter in the 90% range), some are weaker, but they all seem to be unstable. They break-up and glitch every few seconds?

What's going on? Are they still tweaking stuff in the first week? Is it going to get better (or at least return to where it was before), or is this pretty much it?

Some stations may have changed frequencies (like from UHF to VHF) and your antenna reception might be weaker on the new frequency. The transmit power may have changed as well.

Really?...digital ota is going to inhabit vhf band? I thought it was going to all be in uhf. Guess I need to try it out again and mess with the rabbit ears...

Check out the local reception forum for more info, we're talking about this quite extensively in the L.A. thread.

But basically, 7, 9, 11 & 13 switched back to their original channel locations after they switched off their analogs. Many people in the area are now having trouble picking these channels up, with 11 and 13 being the most problematic.

Someone who managed to get through to channel 11 was told that engineers are working on the transmitter and reception should be improved by next week, but who knows.

Topics merged.

If you are using a basic rabbit ear and you are handy with a soldering iron, you can improve VHF reception by modifying the rabbit ears to better match the 75 ohms coax cable. According to Brian Beezley, K6STI:

The antenna impedance is about 75 + j300 Ω at the target frequency. A series capacitance of 6 pF will match this impedance to 75Ω coax. Remove the original 300Ω feedline and solder a 12 pF capacitor to each of the solder lugs. Solder the shield of the coax to one capacitor and the center conductor to the other.

Sorry for the engineering jargon. This modification allows more of the signal to reach the TV compared to the unmodified rabbit ears.

Check out the local reception forum for more info, we're talking about this quite extensively in the L.A. thread.

But basically, 7, 9, 11 & 13 switched back to their original channel locations after they switched off their analogs. Many people in the area are now having trouble picking these channels up, with 11 and 13 being the most problematic.

Someone who managed to get through to channel 11 was told that engineers are working on the transmitter and reception should be improved by next week, but who knows.End of next week.

If you are using a basic rabbit ear and you are handy with a soldering iron, you can improve VHF reception by modifying the rabbit ears to better match the 75 ohms coax cable. According to Brian Beezley, K6STI:

The antenna impedance is about 75 + j300 Ω at the target frequency. A series capacitance of 6 pF will match this impedance to 75Ω coax. Remove the original 300Ω feedline and solder a 12 pF capacitor to each of the solder lugs. Solder the shield of the coax to one capacitor and the center conductor to the other.

Sorry for the engineering jargon. This modification allows more of the signal to reach the TV compared to the unmodified rabbit ears.Images would help. ;)

K45du Trinity Broadcast Network, low power.

Incidentally, for what it is worth, for those of you using rabbit ears, I saw somewhere that if you shorten the telescoping "ears" to 14" each, you will get a better match for the high VHF channels. This is because these antennas are designed to include coverage of low VHF as well. It is worth a try, anyway.

Incidentally, for what it is worth, for those of you using rabbit ears, I saw somewhere that if you shorten the telescoping "ears" to 14" each, you will get a better match for the high VHF channels. This is because these antennas are designed to include coverage of low VHF as well. It is worth a try, anyway.See http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html ...

See http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html ...


Excellent reference! Now you can try tuning to your "worst" channel, if there is one.

I was going to post this earlier but have been busy. I took the suggestion of readjusting the antenna and I can now receive all vhf channels. Thanks for the help.

Agree on KTTV 11. At the moment, I'm relying only on the UHF 91xg antenna, but at least get some signal from Ch 7,9 & 13 albeit weak but enough to show on the TV w/o pixelation. I can't get a signal for Ch 11 no matter what. Zero's all around. I keep expecting someone in the know will chime in that they're operating at well below their intended final intensity.

Well, at around $40, it wasn't too expensive to try the Winegard YA-1713 everyone's been talking about since the 91xg is obviously not good in the vhf spectrum. I added it about 2 1/2 feet below the 91xg on my fairly short mast on the roof and it is barely over the roof line. I should mention I'm in a fringe area (Brea) due to mountains in my path to Mt. Wilson and I'm using the CM7777 preamp. Anyway, now with both antenna's up, life is good. 7-13 excellent signal strengths comparable to those in the UHF band. Rescanning even picked up Ch's 6(analog) and 8(digital) although I have no idea what they are.

Hi. Just another West Los Angeles resident watching OTA and watching KTTV11 and KCOP13 have teething troubles. Missed SYTYCD on Thursday - no signal!

Been using a Radio Shack indoor/outdoor amplified antenna - indoors, on the third floor - for about 18 months now, works pretty well on all stations 7-66, had some trouble with analog 2 but that's history now.

I have a big hirise blocking my line of sight to Mount Wilson, always had severe ghosting with OTA analog signals, and still have to fiddle the orientation of new antenna now and again. But KTTV11 obviously had major problems on Thursday - also last Monday, IIRC, had to rescan after my Friday turnover rescan. But Thursday, I got occassional shreds of signal for a few seconds on 11.1, and then some on 11.3, and then nothing at all.

Finally back on the air Friday AM by 7:00 AM, weak, but decodable.

Just telling y'all what you already know and adding another data point.

I can not get KCOP/KTTV, however the other night at midnight I received viewable signals from San Diego stations!!! KPBS ch 15 (digital 30) had a signal strength of 56

Rescanning even picked up Ch's 6(analog) and 8(digital) although I have no idea what they are.

6: KSFV-CA ("Guadalupe Radio") - One of the USA's many low-power channel 6's pretending to be an FM station - in this case complete with MPX stereo carrier and 75 khz deviation (which is WAY too loud for TV). Carries religion in Spanish. Occasionally runs TV shows to fill the FCC's Class A requirements, and other programming may or may not have accompanying video of some sort. Usually they just show an automated montage of religiously-oriented artwork.

8: KFLA-LD - A low-power digital station with Keystone Cops engineering. When it's working, it carries low, low, low budget special interest programming, old movies (all dollar store DVD stuff, but with even worse picture quality) and assorted religious falderal. Right this second 8-4 is showing just a strange gray herringbone pattern and 8-5 has no audio, which is par for the course. There's also a remarkably lousy-sounding oldies radio station on 8-1's second audio channel.

Kinky. Right now, not a hint of signal on 13.1, but there's the Dodger-Angel game on 13.3, in 720 4:3 glory.

No wait, diagnostic says the signal strength is the same on 13.1 (weak), ... but there's apparently no content!

Its my pleasure BTW when I called Thursday I offered to send them the data, thats when he told me that they're working on the tower.

I'm not sure how much the benefit will be at this point. It appears that they are running from their aux antenna at the moment, which is at 13kW (vs. 15kW for their construction permit). They filed a License to Cover for this facility, here:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1317053&Service=DX&Form_id=2&Facility_id=22208

The Aux is actually higher than the main antenna, but appears to be on a different tower.

Hopefully, KTTV is sending our comments to the FCC, to help get the 115kW maximization app granted. KCOP's CP for 120kW was granted recently (before the transition), but I don't know how long it will take to construct it.

Check out the local reception forum for more info, we're talking about this quite extensively in the L.A. thread.

But basically, 7, 9, 11 & 13 switched back to their original channel locations after they switched off their analogs. Many people in the area are now having trouble picking these channels up, with 11 and 13 being the most problematic.

Someone who managed to get through to channel 11 was told that engineers are working on the transmitter and reception should be improved by next week, but who knows.


That's funny! Now, after the move back to VHF is the first time I have been able to get decent reception either on 11 or 13. In fact I could never get 13 at all before the move!

...The Aux is actually higher than the main antenna, but appears to be on a different tower...


That could be grounds for concern. If the regular antenna is lower that the aux antenna, it may not get out as well after it is put into operation.

That could be grounds for concern. If the regular antenna is lower that the aux antenna, it may not get out as well after it is put into operation.

Even a 100 ft difference (and it's probably much less than that) is not going to be significant out of 3000 (HAAT).

Kinky. Right now, not a hint of signal on 13.1, but there's the Dodger-Angel game on 13.3, in 720 4:3 glory.

No wait, diagnostic says the signal strength is the same on 13.1 (weak), ... but there's apparently no content!

13-3? Are referring to another station. 13 has never had more than one channel.

The Dodger-Angel game was on 13.1 yesterday. Some receivers that can not decode the PSIP will display 13.3 instead.

The Dodger-Angel game was on 13.1 yesterday. Some receivers that can not decode the PSIP will display 13.3 instead.From what you say I assume that they are instead displaying the raw PID channel if for some reason they cannot extract the proper value from the PSIP data. But it's true that KCOP only has one digital channel, ostensibly 13.1.

In fact, a number of the local channels are broadcasting on a "PID channel" of 3, 4, etc. rather than 1, 2, etc. It is the PSIP data which is supposed to provide the "displayed digital channel number" value such as x.1, x.2, etc., which is also the number that you tune to if you want to are trying to tune to a sub-channel other than .1.

For example:

KCBS PID:1, digital channel 2.1

KNBC PID:3/4/5, digital channels 4.1, 4.2, 4.4

KTLA PID:3/4, digital channels 5.1, 5.2

KABC PID:1/2/3, digital channels 7.1, 7.2, 7.3

KCAL PID:1, digital channel 9.1

KTTV PID:3, digital channel 11.1

KCOP PID:3, digital channel 13.1

From what you say I assume that they are instead displaying the raw PID channel if for some reason they cannot extract the proper value from the PSIP data. But it's true that KCOP only has one digital channel, ostensibly 13.1.

In fact, a number of the local channels are broadcasting on a "PID channel" of 3, 4, etc. rather than 1, 2, etc. It is the PSIP data which is supposed to provide the "displayed digital channel number" value such as x.1, x.2, etc., which is also the number that you tune to if you want to are trying to tune to a sub-channel other than .1.

For example:

KCBS PID:1, digital channel 2.1

KNBC PID:3/4/5, digital channels 4.1, 4.2, 4.4

KTLA PID:3/4, digital channels 5.1, 5.2

KABC PID:1/2/3, digital channels 7.1, 7.2, 7.3

KCAL PID:1, digital channel 9.1

KTTV PID:3, digital channel 11.1

KCOP PID:3, digital channel 13.1Question: Wht does KNBC skip 4.3? I remember KTLA had 5.5 for The Tube but that failed and used 5.2 for other stuff (forgot the name).

Question: Why does KNBC skip 4.3?No idea. Why did they start at PID:3? No idea.


I remember KTLA had 5.5 for The Tube but that failed and used 5.2 for other stuff (forgot the name).5.2 is now called "This TV", whatever that carries. I virtually never watch 5.1, and never watch 5.2.

No idea. Why did they start at PID:3? No idea.


5.2 is now called "This TV", whatever that carries. I virtually never watch 5.1, and never watch 5.2.I only watch KTLA for Smallville. Heh. Used to have Beauty & The Geek too.

Explanation for the use of program 3:
Old equipment generated PIDs automatically based on the program, program 1 got 0x11 for video and 0x14 for audio, program 2 got 0x21 and 0x24, 3 got 0x31 and 0x34, and so forth. A few years ago, the FCC banned the use of PIDs less than 0x30 (except the PAT on 0x0) for compatibility reasons or something, so most stations simply switched to program 3 to put themselves back in compliance. Newer equipment allows for PIDs to be set independently of the program, so these stations can use program 1 while still using PIDs 0x31 and 0x34.

Question: Wht does KNBC skip 4.3? I remember KTLA had 5.5 for The Tube but that failed and used 5.2 for other stuff (forgot the name).

Interestingly, as I understand, the New YorK counterpart, WNBC, also on channel 4 uses the identical subchannel arrangement as KNBC. As you know, stations often leave gaps in the numbering of subchannels. The most bizarre case I know of is KGTV in San Diego, which uses subchannel designations 10.1 and 10.15 and nothing in between.

Even a 100 ft difference (and it's probably much less than that) is not going to be significant out of 3000 (HAAT).

I hope so. However, if there are any obstructions in the immediate vicinity such as other transmitter towers or a hill, there could be a problem.

Interestingly, as I understand, the New YorK counterpart, WNBC, also on channel 4 uses the identical subchannel arrangement as KNBC. As you know, stations often leave gaps in the numbering of subchannels. The most bizarre case I know of is KGTV in San Diego, which uses subchannel designations 10.1 and 10.15 and nothing in between.KSCI/LA18 is crazy. Up to 8 IIRC.

KSCI/LA18 is crazy. Up to 8 IIRC.

Yeah, but it's KXLA (44) and KJLA (57) who are actually USING all 8.
And they STILL look better than 7-2.

KSCI are wusses by comparison - only 6 streams currently active ....

Yeah, but it's KXLA (44) and KJLA (57) who are actually USING all 8.
And they STILL look better than 7-2.

KSCI are wusses by comparison - only 6 streams currently active ....Wow, but then I don't watch those two as well. ;)

Reduced lengths between antenna and box, and box and tv. Reduced freezes, and dropouts significantly. Will see when it heats up this summer.

Is there a way to split the signal without signal loss? Hardwire?

Reduced lengths between antenna and box, and box and tv. Reduced freezes, and dropouts significantly. Will see when it heats up this summer.

Is there a way to split the signal without signal loss? Hardwire?What lengths were they before and after? Summer is here already and a heat wave is coming in a few days! :(

The PQ on all KSCI subchannels has always been especially poor, probably much worse than they need to be. BTW the signal seems to be a lot weaker now that it is operating on ch 18, and even drops out here occasionally. It always had an very strong signal on ch 61.

Reduced lengths between antenna and box, and box and tv. Reduced freezes, and dropouts significantly. Will see when it heats up this summer.

Is there a way to split the signal without signal loss? Hardwire?

Yes, you can add a preamplifier at the antenna. If you are splitting the signal it will be a bit involved, since you will have to insert the power supply for the preamp above the split, i.e., between the split and the antenna, ansd still be able to plug the P.S. into a wall outlet.

The PQ on all KSCI subchannels has always been especially poor, probably much worse than they need to be. BTW the signal seems to be a lot weaker now that it is operating on ch 18, and even drops out here occasionally. It always had an very strong signal on ch 61.Yep, weaker here too, but then I don't watch them. My parents and relatives do.

...Summer is here already and a heat wave is coming in a few days! :(

I wouldn't worry too much about summer weather, propagation usually improves in summer/early fall because of the inversion layer.

Took about 10 feet (1/2 db or .5 db improvement) at the antenna, a foot or two between the box and the tv. Improved signal stability.

Took about 10 feet (1/2 db or .5 db improvement) at the antenna, a foot or two between the box and the tv. Improved signal stability.

I would not have expected any perceptible improvement with the removal of such small amounts of cable length, unless either your cable is very old and lossy, or else you have a very high VSWR in the cable.

Yes, you can add a preamplifier at the antenna. If you are splitting the signal it will be a bit involved, since you will have to insert the power supply for the preamp above the split, i.e., between the split and the antenna, ansd still be able to plug the P.S. into a wall outlet.
SAT splitters permit DC PASS on one or both ports (e.g. Zenith ZDS5010 does BOTH):
http://www.amazon.com/ZENITH-ZDS-5010-Digital-Satellite-Splitters/dp/B00009W3X0

But if you have any local TV towers (check www.tvfool.com) you may need to use a low-gain Preamp.
VenturaTVViewer may be too close to use ANY Preamp.....

Improved signal strength, which reduced number of dropouts, or freezes. The farther out the signal, the weaker, the signal, so in the fringe one needs to keep the amount of cable in the system to the absolute minimum.

I am still having trouble with 7.1, 9.1, 11.1, and 13.1 ... occasionally I am able to get 9.1. Before the switch, I was able to watch 7, 9, 11, and 13 analog and digital too. Now none. I guess I have to wait until they get their act together.

I am still having trouble with 7.1, 9.1, 11.1, and 13.1 ... occasionally I am able to get 9.1. Before the switch, I was able to watch 7, 9, 11, and 13 analog and digital too. Now none. I guess I have to wait until they get their act together.11 and 13 are understandable due to known stations' transmitter issues, but KCAL9 is probably not changing. I haven't seen or heard issues for it.

I am still having trouble with 7.1, 9.1, 11.1, and 13.1 ... occasionally I am able to get 9.1. Before the switch, I was able to watch 7, 9, 11, and 13 analog and digital too. Now none. I guess I have to wait until they get their act together.

Well, you COULD read some of the recent posts in this topic and find out why this happened to you, but if you'd rather sit on the couch staring at a blank screen waiting in vain for someone to solve your problems for you, then suit yourself. :rolleyes:

What's the most efficient way? Most efficient.

Using a splitter.

Well, you COULD read some of the recent posts in this topic and find out why this happened to you, but if you'd rather sit on the couch staring at a blank screen waiting in vain for someone to solve your problems for you, then suit yourself. :rolleyes:

Well guess what, recent posts are talking about stations didn't have enough power for the tramission. Guess what, that is why their nelson rating are lower than they should be. If those stations don't get their act together and fix soon, they might lose more viewers. Right now, I can live without those stations cause I can watch on CBS, NBC or WB.

Well guess what, recent posts are talking about stations didn't have enough power for the tramission. Guess what, that is why their nelson rating are lower than they should be. If those stations don't get their act together and fix soon, they might lose more viewers. Right now, I can live without those stations cause I can watch on CBS, NBC or WB.Well, it's summer right now so House, 24, American Idol, etc. are not in their regular seasons with new episodes. Can you imagine this happening in original 2/17/2009 date? It would be hell for everyone! I am glad the digital deadline was pushed to summer.

Well, it's summer right now so House, 24, American Idol, etc. are not in their regular seasons with new episodes. Can you imagine this happening in original 2/17/2009 date? It would be hell for everyone! I am glad the digital deadline was pushed to summer.

Yes, it would be a mightmare for FOX since that is their money making time. It is funny that I can still pick up the analog of channel 2, not good but still visible with alot of snow.

Yes, it would be a mightmare for FOX since that is their money making time. It is funny that I can still pick up the analog of channel 2, not good but still visible with alot of snow.Isn't it on low power to tell viewers that analog is gone and they need a converter box? ;)

SAT splitters permit DC PASS on one or both ports (e.g. Zenith ZDS5010 does BOTH):
http://www.amazon.com/ZENITH-ZDS-5010-Digital-Satellite-Splitters/dp/B00009W3X0

But if you have any local TV towers (check www.tvfool.com) you may need to use a low-gain Preamp.
VenturaTVViewer may be too close to use ANY Preamp.....

Good point. In cases where a preamp cannot be used, one can use two separate antennas, each with its own feedline.

Yes, it would be a mightmare for FOX since that is their money making time. It is funny that I can still pick up the analog of channel 2, not good but still visible with alot of snow.

Yes, at low power. The last time I checked, chs 4, 5 and sometimes 22 were doing this also.

Isn't it on low power to tell viewers that analog is gone and they need a converter box? ;)

Nope. Full power. They're all running exactly the same power they did when they were airing regular programming.

BTW ... new subchannel. 63-2. Sitting on bars and tone right now, with the chyron reading "ATT TOC Broadcast Operations Hollywood CA." I wonder what it'll be?

My money says "religion" or "infomercials." Hope I'm wrong.

Nope. Full power. They're all running exactly the same power they did when they were airing regular programming.Don't they have to shut those down to gain juice for digitals? Or are they using separate transmitters? I wonder if that is why today is less channels. scanned only 38 channels!

Don't they have to shut those down to gain juice for digitals? Or are they using separate transmitters? I wonder if that is why today is less channels. scanned only 38 channels!

Separate transmitters, just like before the transition.

Your channel shortage is probably atmospherics.

As of last night, we still have 5 local nightlights (2,4,5,22,63). I still don't know why we needed so many. They all seemed to be operating at the same power as before, though 63 is slightly better w/o analog 62 next to it.

4, 5 & 22 are scheduled to end their nightlights on Friday, with 2 going all the way to 7/12. I have no idea what 63's plans are.

RF 5 was quite noisy when analog KTLA was off the air briefly before the nightlight started. Any LD station attempting to operate there is going to have more than its share of problems. I don't expect 2 and 4 to be significantly better. 6 always looks terrible, but it's at low power.

I took the Y5-2-6 out of my system (was combined with the YA1713 by way of a HLSJ). It seemed to help 7-13, but by a very small amount.

Separate transmitters, just like before the transition.

Your channel shortage is probably atmospherics.Ah, the cloudy sky right now or something else. I don't remember having this low number last week when it was cloudy. [shrugs]

Ah, the cloudy sky right now or something else. I don't remember having this low number last week when it was cloudy. [shrugs]

Lots more to it than clouds. Temperature, atmospheric pressure, the ozone layer, sunspots, kewpies in the briny ... all sorts of things could be affecting your signal. ;)

Lots more to it than clouds. Temperature, atmospheric pressure, the ozone layer, sunspots, kewpies in the briny ... all sorts of things could be affecting your signal. ;)Damn, too many variables. :(

I finally reached KTTV at the 866 number and he said they're working on the towers and we should be able to get a signal sometime next week probably Tuesday or Wednesday.

I forgot to ask if they had any plans to mention the signal issue on their website so I called 5 mins later and the person said she was not sure but she'll pass the idea along.

Edit: BTW, If any of you call them and they tell you something different about fixing this please let us know.

Just to update everyone on the KTTV situation.

Over the weekend someone sent me good email contact information for two key employees at the station so I was able to send the information you guys submitted in the survey on Sunday. Although I haven't received a response, I'm sure they got it.

Also this morning I found a post on the OC Register's site that pretty much corroborates what they told me when I called the DTV hotline (http://www.myfoxla.com/dpp/entertainment/television/DTV_Switch) on the 18th.

http://gadgetress.freedomblogging.com/2009/06/12/hello-digital-so-long-analog-tv/15639/#comment-8919

Called kttv the helpline. Answer is that there is some problems with the antenna and they are working the problem. It might take a week to get it fixed.

So now we (still) wait and see.

Nope. Full power. They're all running exactly the same power they did when they were airing regular programming.

BTW ... new subchannel. 63-2. Sitting on bars and tone right now, with the chyron reading "ATT TOC Broadcast Operations Hollywood CA." I wonder what it'll be?

My money says "religion" or "infomercials." Hope I'm wrong.

Are you seeing KBEH on 63.1? On my Zenith CECB it has been showing up on 24.2 for the last few days.

Are you seeing KBEH on 63.1? On my Zenith CECB it has been showing up on 24.2 for the last few days.

Back to 63-1, yes. I was also getting them as 24-2 for a few days there.

Just to update everyone on the KTTV situation.

Over the weekend someone sent me good email contact information for two key employees at the station so I was able to send the information you guys submitted in the survey on Sunday. Although I haven't received a response, I'm sure they got it.

Also this morning I found a post on the OC Register's site that pretty much corroborates what they told me when I called the DTV hotline (http://www.myfoxla.com/dpp/entertainment/television/DTV_Switch) on the 18th.

http://gadgetress.freedomblogging.com/2009/06/12/hello-digital-so-long-analog-tv/15639/#comment-8919

Thanks for the updates again.

Hmm. "June 16, 2009 at 3:25 pm" for that comment. And you said end of this business week or something. I guess we will still have to wait until end of this week. :(

From the new CGC Communicator (not online yet):

" GENERAL NOTES ON THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA DTV TRANSITION

Some people, even professional antenna installers, were under
the mistaken impression that Los Angeles would become a UHF-only
DTV market, so a number of viewers were totally unprepared to re-
ceive high-band VHF when DTV lit up. That was strike one against
VHF in the minds of many, but the judgement was premature.



If you go back a few years to my posts on this subject I was recommending the use of VHF/UHF antennas for digital TV. I was called uninformed and stupid. Was also told that UHF antennas work just fine on 7-13. Meanwhile I continued to use VHF/UHF exclusively. I get great reception on my $37.99 VHF/UHF Winegard 7015.

As a side note I do have a degree in Electrical Engineering but I have spent my career writing software, mostly for Aerospace applications. Come to think of it I did get an A in transmission line field theory way back in 1968.

Rick R

FWIW, as mentioned elsewhere, KTTV 11 is now showing up in South OC. Signal strength 70-71% Vs. 30-35% yesterday. They must've done something.

O.O.

FWIW, as mentioned elsewhere, KTTV 11 is now showing up in South OC. Signal strength 70-71% Vs. 30-35% yesterday. They must've done something.Oooh, good start. I hope to see mine. How about KCOP/UPN13?

Thank you Project!

On the 19th, I asked for help choosing an antenna. You recommended I try the Clearstream C2 and it's working great! For now, it's just hanging from the hat rack in my living room but my landlord is going to put it on the roof this weekend and I expect that'll improve my already strong signal.

Many thanks!

Jewel

Something could be fixing to light up on on KBEH 63.2.
PSIP info labeled as KBEH.2 with no guide info.

It just appeared today running a color bar test pattern at the moment with the following:

ATT TOC
BROADCAST OPERATIONS
HOLLYWOOD CA.

Edit for more: Now 24.1 and 24.4 appeared with just a test pattern and no PSIP id. I've never received KVCR out of Berdo so it's not them. What the hell is KBEH doing? I would think KVCR would like for them to stop futzing around since people that are able to receive both KVCR and KBEH might think KVCR is out. By the looks of things KBEH is now running 4 channels; two at 24.1 & 24.4 and two at 63.1 (the only channel showing actual programming) & 63.2

Something could be fixing to light up on on KBEH 63.2.
PSIP info labeled as KBEH.2 with no guide info.

It just appeared today running a color bar test pattern at the moment with the following:

ATT TOC
BROADCAST OPERATIONS
HOLLYWOOD CA.

A couple interesting things about that that I just noticed ...

First of all, those colorbars are in standard definition widescreen. (So, I'm sorry to say, is KBEH itself. Stretch-o-vision.)

Secondly, that ain't all that's there. Here we are getting out of my area of technical expertise, but my EyeTV channel scan latched onto two more streams with colorbars, both SD widescreen, but with no chyron. Apparently there is no mapping on these suckers. The software assigned them default numbers with no relationship to anything, and none of my other tuners found them at all. But they are part of 63-1's stream.

Somebody with that Windows stream analysis program thingy needs to check this out.

FWIW, as mentioned elsewhere, KTTV 11 is now showing up in South OC. Signal strength 70-71% Vs. 30-35% yesterday. They must've done something.

O.O.

They are probably on the main antenna now. This is a couple days early I think, but was certainly needed.

I'm getting 23-26dB now (stable) on my 4221 at my office in Tustin, vs. 15-16dB before (not good enough to lock reliably). I will check at home later.

Oooh, good start. I hope to see mine. How about KCOP/UPN13?

Very interesting. I am now getting 73/100 on KTTV and 88/100 for KCOP! Previous readings were ~26 and 63 respectively. Much better now.

Very interesting. I am now getting 73/100 on KTTV and 88/100 for KCOP! Previous readings were ~26 and 63 respectively. Much better now.

Channel 13 is suddenly my strongest VHF channel.

I'm now getting a weak signal on RF21. I can't lock it in, so not sure what station it is.

11 and 13 are also very strong here, RF21 is KPMR (Univision) from Santa Barbara.

Also getting KTTVDT reliably all the way down here in Tijuana Mexico tonight (by the coast) with a roof mounted Winegard YA-1713 Hi-VHF antenna.

I'll try to get some signal strength readings tomorrow. Maybe the weather conditions are more ideal this evening but certainly it seems that KTTV has done something on the transmission end also.

KTTV is definitely not any stronger here, in fact it seems to be somewhat weaker. It used to be a bit stronger than KCOP and now it is weaker. Just a moment ago I was reading about 55% for KTTV and about 75% for KCOP.

At home (Ladera Ranch - South OC), I have the following results, compared to before:

On-Air GT:
KTTV: 29-32 (was 26-27)
KCOP: 30-33 (27-29)

Samsung TV:
KTTV: 9 (7)
KCOP: 10 (8)

So, both have improved considerably. The best UHF stations I get are typically 32-34dB (30-32 avg).

Looking at the filings, KTTV filed they license to cover for 15kW. There must be more to it as the Aux was at 13kW, but perhaps that wasn't at full power.

KCOP filed their license to cover for 13.5kW. So, both were probably operating Aux facilities until now.

If they are currently running at 15 and 13.5kW, do they really need 115 and 120kW, respectively?

It would have been nice if they had told us about this work on their website, or on crawls or something. If not for a couple people (see above), we would have been in the dark.

KTTV is definitely not any stronger here, in fact it seems to be somewhat weaker. It used to be a bit stronger than KCOP and now it is weaker. Just a moment ago I was reading about 55% for KTTV and about 75% for KCOP.

Most interesting... Why do we always seem to be moving in opposite directions?

I guess the main tower isn't quite as good at your location as the Aux? :confused:

Are you having breakups/dropouts at 55%?

KTTV & KCOP are no better or no worse on a bunny ears in the Long Beach gulch South of the Traffic Circle. Samsung LCD has a solid 5-7 bar lock out of 10. It's always in that range though, so no big whoop where I'm at.

OK, I just checked KTTV and KCOP tonight. Both seem the same as before on my bowtie antenna. Nothing improved for me. It can't get KTTV and KCOP13 is about 60%.

Here's what is interesting! I swapped my coax connection to Terk rabbit ears, and it can easily lock KTTV with 98%-100%! Woah! However, KCOP13 was not picked up. DOH!

This is based on my PC HDTV tuners. I did not try it with my converter box (probably handle it fine like before).

6/24/2009 7:37 AM PDT: 40% and locked on!

Can anyone chime in on what the strength of signal they are pulling in for KLCS "58"?

I can understand it's not that popular because they broadcast 4 channels of SD programming but it's by far one of my weakest channels in Cerritos.

I'd still like to watch the Create channel on 58.3 on my old school 27" CRT.

TIM

Can anyone chime in on what the strength of signal they are pulling in for KLCS "58"?
It's pretty crap in Long Beach too. Massive dropouts but KLCS was more of a victim of their analog hosing up just before the DTV transition. Pretty much the worst timing. They are on AUX facilities and are repairing their stick to replace the dead one.

KLCS be back but a publicly funded station that doesn't have pledge drives has a few more economic hoops to jump through in order to get things done.

Thanks Rob for the followup. Good to see I'm not alone and the break ups I'm seeing are due to their transmitter woes.

TIM

Can anyone chime in on what the strength of signal they are pulling in for KLCS "58"?

I can understand it's not that popular because they broadcast 4 channels of SD programming but it's by far one of my weakest channels in Cerritos.

I'd still like to watch the Create channel on 58.3 on my old school 27" CRT.

TIM50-60% on my side for my converter box. Can't pick up on HDTV tuners cards in my PC. Fine on analog before 6/12/2009.

Most interesting... Why do we always seem to be moving in opposite directions?

I guess the main tower isn't quite as good at your location as the Aux? :confused:

Are you having breakups/dropouts at 55%?

No. There is no breakup so far; I just hope that the signal will remain stable during less favorable weather conditions. This morning I checked signal strengths again, and they are slightly stronger: 60% on KTTV and 70% on KCOP. All of these measurements were made on the Samsung STB. I just now also checked on the Pioneer plasma and got 73% for KTTV and 69% for KCOP, thus the ranking is reversed even though both sets are commected to the same antenna! Go figure! Still, I remember both showing KTTV stronger than KCOP before.

Can anyone chime in on what the strength of signal they are pulling in for KLCS "58"?

I can understand it's not that popular because they broadcast 4 channels of SD programming but it's by far one of my weakest channels in Cerritos.

I'd still like to watch the Create channel on 58.3 on my old school 27" CRT.

TIM
87% here in WLA with no dropouts. Although I find their signal to be very directional. I cannot tell you if this is due to multipath or their actual signal, but I know that if I do not point my Silver Sensor correctly then KLCS (58) comes in very week and with break ups.

Additionally, I enjoy the Create network a whole lot as well. This very network is the only reason I donate money to both KLCS and KVCR, even though they do not have any HD broadcasts. But anyway, I just wanted to tell you that if you can manage to catch KVCR, they broadcast the Create network on their 4 subchannel, 24.4.

I'm waiting for things to settle down a bit, after the switchover, before I post my complete list of stations and signal strengths.

Rudy

KTTV is definitely not any stronger here, in fact it seems to be somewhat weaker. It used to be a bit stronger than KCOP and now it is weaker. Just a moment ago I was reading about 55% for KTTV and about 75% for KCOP.

Don't get too hung up on comparing hour-by-hour results. Reception conditions constantly change.

Can anyone chime in on what the strength of signal they are pulling in for KLCS "58"?

I can understand it's not that popular because they broadcast 4 channels of SD programming but it's by far one of my weakest channels in Cerritos.

I'd still like to watch the Create channel on 58.3 on my old school 27" CRT.

TIM


It was for me too. But I just checked and 58 is now 29 dB SNR and -65 dB power. Vastly improved.

Also getting KTTVDT reliably all the way down here in Tijuana Mexico tonight (by the coast) with a roof mounted Winegard YA-1713 Hi-VHF antenna.

I'll try to get some signal strength readings tomorrow. Maybe the weather conditions are more ideal this evening but certainly it seems that KTTV has done something on the transmission end also.

Here are the signal strengths that I measured on my Toshiba LCD ATSC tuner between 11am and 11:15am this morning in Tijuana Mexico - over 120 miles from Mt. Wilson:

7.1, 25.25
9.1, 20
11.1, 20
13.1, 19.25

If they boosted the transmission power on 11.1 from 15Kw to 155Kw, that is going to be about another 9dB of gain at my receiver. That will put it to 29dB which is simliar to the strength that I can receive my local San Diego channels. May be a bit strong for a channel that is broadcasting 120+ miles away!

Don't get too hung up on comparing hour-by-hour results. Reception conditions constantly change.


I fully agree. But that wasn't my point; I was simply showing some relative comparisons between the strengths of the two stations at my location.

Can anyone chime in on what the strength of signal they are pulling in for KLCS "58"?

I can understand it's not that popular because they broadcast 4 channels of SD programming but it's by far one of my weakest channels in Cerritos.

I'd still like to watch the Create channel on 58.3 on my old school 27" CRT.

TIM

Rudy G is right, you may be able to receive Create on KVCR 24.4 (RF 26). You may need to adjust your antenna & aim it down the 91 freeway, East.

Thanks for all the replies.

I'm a little embarrassed to admit what my set up is.

I have CM 4228 antenna (the older edition). Though classified as a UHF antenna it can pull down high VHF channels even including the low power KFLA CH-8.

I've yet to put it on the roof of my two story home. Right now it's in a bedroom closet on the second floor but it's not oriented correctly. Though for most part it pulls down all the channels even KTTV. But KCOP and KLCS are my iffy ones. I use a CM7000 tuner.

I assume I'll have to get a professional to install it, (any estimates out there?) though if I'm spending all that $, I might spring for a proper VHF/UHF antenna.

TIM

I'm a little embarrassed to admit what my set up is.
Below is a photo of my setup.

I've yet to put it on the roof of my two story home. Right now it's in a bedroom closet on the second floor but it's not oriented correctly. Though for most part it pulls down all the channels even KTTV. But KCOP and KLCS are my iffy ones. I use a CM7000 tuner.

I assume I'll have to get a professional to install it, (any estimates out there?) though if I'm spending all that $, I might spring for a proper VHF/UHF antenna.
TIM
And, don't be surprised if the antenna works worse outside! The one in the photo didn't pickup as many stations outside, with line of sight to Mt Wilson. Reception is part science and part magic, if you ask me.

Oooh, good start. I hope to see mine. How about KCOP/UPN13?

I didn't pay close attention to KCOP 13 because it was usable before and immediately after the DTV switchover. I just checked now and it's showing 75%. I'm using an attic mounted Recoton powered VHF/UHF rabbit ear antenna with a ChannelVision CVT-15PIA preamp presently, but I want to change back to my CM-4228 also attic mounted. I'm hoping that the 4228 will be good enough at 221 MHz (KTTV-11). It worked fine for 7, 9 and 13, after the DTV switchover, just not 11. The Recoton rabbit ears did not do any better, but it was worth a shot, as the 4228 is a UHF only antenna, with some high VHF capability.

O.O.

Now owned by Silverpoint from Connecticut. Private equity firm. Gained via bankruptcy. Expect it will be an infomercial channel. Or, the network they create, bundled and sold down the road. Or, the transmitter moved to LA.

Will see.

And, don't be surprised if the antenna works worse outside! The one in the photo didn't pickup as many stations outside, with line of sight to Mt Wilson. Reception is part science and part magic, if you ask me.

Of course, when using a UHF only antenna to try pick up VHF signals all bets are off. You have no idea where the VHF reception is actually coming from. For instance it may be coming from the feedline so any relocation of the feedline could change things completely and the difference has little or nothing to do with inside/outside per se.

But with a proper VHF-UHF antenna mounted outside it's always going to work better. I can guarantee that since I'm just a few blocks from you and I've had absolutely no problems receiving 11 and 13 at any time.

So it's really all science but the science can seem rather obscure when you go outside the design parameters.

11 seems really strong now.

11 seems really strong now.Stronger than the last two days when it was reported stronger?

Stronger than yesterday when I could barely lock on. Solid picture and sound with no break ups in San Diego. Must be good weather.

11 still does not come in with 4 bay bowtie antenna connected to MyHD MDP 100 and 130 tuner cards.
area code 90503

I've got a Y10-7-13 antenna in my attic, the biggest vhf-hi antenna I could get.

11 still does not come in with 4 bay bowtie antenna connected to MyHD MDP 100 and 130 tuner cards.
area code 90503

You can't expect to get any satisfactory reception unless you add a VHF antenna!

11 still does not come in with 4 bay bowtie antenna connected to MyHD MDP 100 and 130 tuner cards.
area code 90503Did you try a rabbit ears or an antenna that handles VHF?

While KCET is better overall and much more stable since its move from ch 59 to ch 28, I often lose the signal for periods during the evening hours. Also, KSCI has a similar problem during the evenings since its move from ch 61 to ch 18. It always had a very strong signal on ch 61, and it is much weaker now. I suspect that KSCI is running much lower power on ch 18, and it is the only station that has a worse signal following the move. I suspect that this problem with these two stations is due to ducting, caused by the cool, moist marine air which moves inland at night.

While I don't watch KSCI, I do watch KCET, ecpecially 28.4, and these dropouts can be frustrating.

Is anyone watching for the nightlights signing off? All 5 were still there when I left for work this morning.

Unless KBEH/63 stays around, we should only have 1 nightlight after today (analog KCBS/2).

I just put up the Antennasdirect C5 hoping to get the Los Angeles High VHF stations. I got/get great UHF channels with my C4 before and after the switch. I was hoping for at least channel 7 and 11. With the C5 going into my 7777, I am very close to getting channel 13. I get some signal with 9 and 11 and no signal with 7. On my TV tuner, I needed at least 35 signal for UHF and I would have a perfect signal (of course I want higher). It seems that with the High VHF channels, I need at least 45 signal. I am getting 45 signal with channel 13 and about 40 signal on 11 and 9. Here is my TV fool info:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=618a23d52b0c16

Do you think I will have better luck when/if they increase the power? What is funny is last night, I was able to pull in the San Diego Fox/NBC and PBS.

Bring back UHF for 7-13!

Is anyone watching for the nightlights signing off? All 5 were still there when I left for work this morning.

Unless KBEH/63 stays around, we should only have 1 nightlight after today (analog KCBS/2).

I am only getting 2, 4, 5 and 22 on analog now. I am not seeing any analog on 63. BTW until now I was also receiving an analog signal in Spanish on ch 67, and it did not seem to be another DTV "how to" broadcast. I was going to check the call sign, but it is gone now. Perhaps it was in Mexico.

Last night I slapped together a version of this DIY UHF antenna:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=944262&postcount=141

using 2 coat hangers, a scrap of wood and a balun.

Promptly picked up XETV-6.1 (RF 23) from Tijuana 129 miles away, indoors.

Meanwhile not a whiff of KCET 28 here 4 miles from Mt. Wilson (admittedly it's "2-Edge").

And 11 and 13 are still AWOL, but my VHF-Hi setup is still at the rudimentary stage. 7 (solid) and 9 (spotty) are coming in.

Just before noon today I scanned a new, small TV I bought for an upstairs room. Connected only to an indoor antenna, it found way too many analogs. :)

2, 4, 5, 22 & 63 - all running the nightlight thing

6 with its annoyingly loud audio

25, 27 & 57 - all doing something in Spanish

45 - picture so poor I could only make out "LP" but not the call letters

67 - HSN still hawking stuff

33 - jewelry (same program as on 57-1)

Are these non-nightlight stations staying forever?

It looks like the nightlight on 22 is gone now. I will re-check at home.

22 would have been great for DTV. It was one of my clearest analog stations (46 was great too). Most markets don't have 4 VHF stations to contend with and very few have more than 4. I would still rather have zero.

OTA would probably have a better chance of a comeback if viewers could just put up something like a CM4221 and get all the channels.

Of course, we used to be UHF only, but most outdoor antennas I see are broken down all-banders. If the perception is that those monsters are still needed, then people won't want to bother with adding outdoor antennas in many cases.

At least 7-51 antennas are less of an eyesore, but the general perception that VHF 2-13 consists of one band will be hard to break. e.g, "VHF channels are 2-13." Well, yes, but the requirements of 7-13 are very different than 2-6, though some designs cheap by trying to provide both with only Low-VHF elements.

It looks like the nightlight on 22 is gone now. I will re-check at home.

It would be good to know for sure if analog 22 is now turned off. Can anyone else confirm?

It looks like the nightlight on 22 is gone now. I will re-check at home.

22 would have been great for DTV. It was one of my clearest analog stations (46 was great too). Most markets don't have 4 VHF stations to contend with and very few have more than 4. I would still rather have zero.

OTA would probably have a better chance of a comeback if viewers could just put up something like a CM4221 and get all the channels.

Of course, we used to be UHF only, but most outdoor antennas I see are broken down all-banders. If the perception is that those monsters are still needed, then people won't want to bother with adding outdoor antennas in many cases.

At least 7-51 antennas are less of an eyesore, but the general perception that VHF 2-13 consists of one band will be hard to break. e.g, "VHF channels are 2-13." Well, yes, but the requirements of 7-13 are very different than 2-6, though some designs cheap by trying to provide both with only Low-VHF elements.

I wish we could make a petition or something to get rid of this High VHF junk. I live 57 miles away and I had perfect DTV with UHF. Now that 7-13 are back to High VHF, I bought a new antenna just for these channels and I am having issues. Last night I was able to pull in 3 UHF San Diego Channels that are over 70 miles away. I might just watch the San Diego Fox and forget about the LA Fox!

I wish we could make a petition or something to get rid of this High VHF junk. I live 57 miles away and I had perfect DTV with UHF. Now that 7-13 are back to High VHF, I bought a new antenna just for these channels and I am having issues. Last night I was able to pull in 3 UHF San Diego Channels that are over 70 miles away. I might just watch the San Diego Fox and forget about the LA Fox!

You may want to consider returning the Clearstream5 and getting a Winegard YA-1713 instead. Published gain is higher. In addition, the Clearstream5 is brand new, of a newer design, and may not live up to it's claims... It's unknown at this time. Plus the YA-1713 street price is $39.99 plus shipping at solidsignal.com vs. the C5 at $119.99 at antennasdirect.com.

How many miles are you from San Diego Mt. Soledad vs. Los Angeles Mt. Wilson? What type of reception does it say you will get from either location on tvfool.com? 1Edge, 2Edge, probability of reception, etc. You should focus on receiving what you have the best chance of getting reliably.

You may want to consider returning the Clearstream5 and getting a Winegard YA-1713 instead. Published gain is higher. In addition, the Clearstream5 is brand new, of a newer design, and may not live up to it's claims... It's unknown at this time. Plus the YA-1713 street price is $39.99 plus shipping at solidsignal.com vs. the C5 at $119.99 at antennasdirect.com.

How many miles are you from San Diego Mt. Soledad vs. Los Angeles Mt. Wilson? What type of reception does it say you will get from either location on tvfool.com? 1Edge, 2Edge, probability of reception, etc. You should focus on receiving what you have the best chance of getting reliably.

Do you think it would work if I hung the YA-1713 vertically in my picture window or would that not do any good? I'm 25 miles from Mt. Wilson and using rabbit ears I can't get squat from 7 to 13.

Do you think it would work if I hung the YA-1713 vertically in my picture window or would that not do any good? I'm 25 miles from Mt. Wilson and using rabbit ears I can't get squat from 7 to 13.

Sounds like you should get cable then :)

25 miles with indoor rabbit ears may be asking a lot. What does antennaweb.org or tvfool.com say in regards to reception of these channels at your location?

You may want to consider returning the Clearstream5 and getting a Winegard YA-1713 instead. Published gain is higher. In addition, the Clearstream5 is brand new, of a newer design, and may not live up to it's claims... It's unknown at this time. Plus the YA-1713 street price is $39.99 plus shipping at solidsignal.com vs. the C5 at $119.99 at antennasdirect.com.

How many miles are you from San Diego Mt. Soledad vs. Los Angeles Mt. Wilson? What type of reception does it say you will get from either location on tvfool.com? 1Edge, 2Edge, probability of reception, etc. You should focus on receiving what you have the best chance of getting reliably.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d618a23d52b0c16

I am about 57 miles away. This is not a problem for the UHF channels (before and after the switch). The problem is with the High VHF. I live in an apartment (I do have my own balcony and I am on the second floor). I just don't want to put up a "real" antenna. I know they can't say anything (according to the FCC) but I don't want the problems. So instead, I went with the C4 and the C5 on a tripod/pole.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d618a23d52b0c16

I am about 57 miles away. This is not a problem for the UHF channels (before and after the switch). The problem is with the High VHF. I live in an apartment (I do have my own balcony and I am on the second floor). I just don't want to put up a "real" antenna. I know they can't say anything (according to the FCC) but I don't want the problems. So instead, I went with the C4 and the C5 on a tripod/pole.

Well according to your tvfool results, you should be able to get 7, 9 and 13 with an attic mounted antenna (no attic in your apartment). The others state "A roof-mounted antenna is probably needed to pick up channels at this level and above". According to tvfool, it should be easier to receive the VHF stations than the UHF stations transmitting from Mt. Wilson - but obviously you are not experiencing that. The C4 has a decent amount of gain for a compact antenna, likely that is why you are doing well with UHF.

Of course these are estimates for your location and does not factor in the direction that your apartment is facing, other localized obstructions, etc. Are the C4 and C5 mounted on your balcony as close to the edge as you can get? Have you confirmed aiming with a compass to ensure you are aiming at 289 degrees magnetic? How far apart do you have them mounted on your tripod/pole? Is there anything that you can see locally that may be blocking the signal? Have you approached your landlord to see if they could grant you roof access? Yes, not likely but may be worth asking.

Sounds like you should get cable then :)

25 miles with indoor rabbit ears may be asking a lot. What does antennaweb.org or tvfool.com say in regards to reception of these channels at your location?

Cable isn't an option - I refuse to give them any money. TVfool says that a set top antenna should be sufficient to receive VHF: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d618a601cc8d290
...and Antennaweb says the VHF channels I want to receive are red, medium directional antenna needed.

Well according to your tvfool results, you should be able to get 7, 9 and 13 with an attic mounted antenna (no attic in your apartment). The others state "A roof-mounted antenna is probably needed to pick up channels at this level and above". According to tvfool, it should be easier to receive the VHF stations than the UHF stations transmitting from Mt. Wilson - but obviously you are not experiencing that. The C4 has a decent amount of gain for a compact antenna, likely that is why you are doing well with UHF.

Of course these are estimates for your location and does not factor in the direction that your apartment is facing, other localized obstructions, etc. Are the C4 and C5 mounted on your balcony as close to the edge as you can get? Have you confirmed aiming with a compass to ensure you are aiming at 289 degrees magnetic? How far apart do you have them mounted on your tripod/pole? Is there anything that you can see locally that may be blocking the signal? Have you approached your landlord to see if they could grant you roof access? Yes, not likely but may be worth asking.

My balcony faces the correct direction. I know there is other apartments in front of me. I have tried at the very edge and I get the same signal. I have the C5 on top of the C4. They are on a 5' pole about 2 feet above my balcony. I would guess that the C5 is about 18' above the ground. I have not used a compass yet. That was my next thing to try. I know my UHF antenna is perfectly aimed because I have very good signal and I do notice a signal lose just by moving it a few degrees. Another building of my apartment complex has a huge VHF and UHF antenna that I know would work. The VHF looks like it is about 100" long with a separate UHF antenna. It is too far for me to tap into though.

What about this antenna for both UHF and High VHF in my area? How big is this antenna?

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=CM2016&xzoom=Large#xview

Just before noon today I scanned a new, small TV I bought for an upstairs room. Connected only to an indoor antenna, it found way too many analogs. :)

...
45 - picture so poor I could only make out "LP" but not the call letters

45 would be KLAU-LP out of Redlands. 100% infomercials 24/7 :rolleyes:

My balcony faces the correct direction. I know there is other apartments in front of me. I have tried at the very edge and I get the same signal. I have the C5 on top of the C4. They are on a 5' pole about 2 feet above my balcony. I would guess that the C5 is about 18' above the ground. I have not used a compass yet. That was my next thing to try. I know my UHF antenna is perfectly aimed because I have very good signal and I do notice a signal lose just by moving it a few degrees. Another building of my apartment complex has a huge VHF and UHF antenna that I know would work. The VHF looks like it is about 100" long with a separate UHF antenna. It is too far for me to tap into though.

What about this antenna for both UHF and High VHF in my area? How big is this antenna?

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=CM2016&xzoom=Large#xview

In general a separate UHF and VHF antenna would be better suited for each task and likely you can get each with higher gain. Combo antenna is more convenient though, especially if rotating with a rotor.

Dimensions are on that page:

Antenna Size (L x W x H) 36.5 x 47 x 22 in (92.7 x 119.4 x 55.9 cm)

Fairly large...

Likely you may have to hold out and see if the stations request more power and the FCC agrees. You may want to complain to each station and the FCC. It doesn't seem likely that the FCC allocated the proper amount of power so the viewer 50+ miles away with non-roof mounted antennas would be able to receive the broadcasts. Is Perris even considered part of the LA television market?

I also think the stations themselves were more concerned with lowering their electric bills and keeping their original channel number than satisfying their viewers. Wouldn't it have just been easier for them to shut down their analog transmitters and give their VHF frequencies back to the government and just keep the digital transmitters on their UHF frequencies going?

Cable isn't an option - I refuse to give them any money. TVfool says that a set top antenna should be sufficient to receive VHF: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d618a601cc8d290
...and Antennaweb says the VHF channels I want to receive are red, medium directional antenna needed.

And I suppose you already followed the previously posted information on optimizing the rabbit ear length for each channel, aiming tips, etc?

Do you have any neighbors that can get VHF reception with rabbit ears?

In general a separate UHF and VHF antenna would be better suited for each task and likely you can get each with higher gain. Combo antenna is more convenient though, especially if rotating with a rotor.

Dimensions are on that page:

Antenna Size (L x W x H) 36.5 x 47 x 22 in (92.7 x 119.4 x 55.9 cm)

Fairly large...

Likely you may have to hold out and see if the stations request more power and the FCC agrees. You may want to complain to each station and the FCC. It doesn't seem likely that the FCC allocated the proper amount of power so the viewer 50+ miles away with non-roof mounted antennas would be able to receive the broadcasts. Is Perris even considered part of the LA television market?

I also think the stations themselves were more concerned with lowering their electric bills and keeping their original channel number than satisfying their viewers. Wouldn't it have just been easier for them to shut down their analog transmitters and give their VHF frequencies back to the government and just keep the digital transmitters on their UHF frequencies going?

Perris is in the LA television market. I am part of the Inland Empire. We have some big cities around here like Riverside and Moreno Valley that are almost as far as I am.

What about this antenna for both UHF and High VHF in my area? How big is this antenna?

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=CM2016&xzoom=Large#xview

BTW, the VHF gain for that antenna is not so good. Look at the picture - it's basically rabbit ears attached to a UHF yagi antenna.

CHANNEL GAIN BEAMWIDTH, F/B

7 2 MULTI-DIRECTIONAL

9 0 MULTI-DIRECTIONAL

11 2 MULTI-DIRECTIONAL

13 2 MULTI-DIRECTIONAL


VS the 7.5 dB of gain you have with the C5 if the graph here is trustworthy: http://www.antennasdirect.com/pdf/C5-assembly-instructions.pdf

Just before noon today I scanned a new, small TV I bought for an upstairs room. Connected only to an indoor antenna, it found way too many analogs. :)

2, 4, 5, 22 & 63 - all running the nightlight thing

6 with its annoyingly loud audio

25, 27 & 57 - all doing something in Spanish

45 - picture so poor I could only make out "LP" but not the call letters

67 - HSN still hawking stuff

33 - jewelry (same program as on 57-1)

Are these non-nightlight stations staying forever?

I am picking up all of these too, except that 4 (surprisingly), 22 and 63 are now gone. 33 is very weak with no intelligible picture and audio seems to be in Spanish, and there was also loud interference on ch 6. 45 was not all that weak but did have some interference.

I really should do a rescan of the analog channels sometime just to make sure that I am not missing anything!

And I suppose you already followed the previously posted information on optimizing the rabbit ear length for each channel, aiming tips, etc?

Do you have any neighbors that can get VHF reception with rabbit ears?

Yep, I followed all the advice for rabbit ears - no luck. All my neighbors pay for TV but friends down the street can't get a lock with a simple VHF antenna either. I'm finding out how bad VHF sucks for indoor antenna reception.

I just want to get something that I can hang in my 4'x8' window (it will be hidden behind the curtain), which is in the direction of Mt. Wilson, and will get better reception than rabbit ears. Any suggestions?

45 would be KLAU-LP out of Redlands. 100% infomercials 24/7 :rolleyes:

Not quite 24/7 it seems; right now they seem to be showing an old movie, but it is very snowy here. I will have to verify that I am getting the same ch 45 here. By the way, ch 67 identified itslf as KHTV-LP.

There went the nightlight on 5, at 11pm. That leaves 2 and 63 as nightlights for now.

The snow for 5 seems to be much noisier than that for 4, but the analog picture on 4 was much worse than 5, before they turned off.

Several LP/TX analog channels remain. Those above 51 can remain until they are forced off by new spectrum owners. Those in the 2-51 range can remain indefinitely (on analog) at this point, though the FCC will probably set a timeline for those as well.

I would think the LP/TX stations will want to move to digital as how many viewers will go out of their way to watch them now?

Here's what I've got early Saturday morning (6/27) in Harbor City (90710) on my little analog (no inputs) portable about to make its way to the hazmat site:

Perfectly clear:
2 KCBS "How to" for DTV

Mostly-unwatchable snowy:
25 KNET-CA spanish language religious
27 KNLA-LP spanish language religious / infomercials
33 KSMV-LP "JTV" looks like home shopping
45 KLAU-LP infomercials

Nothing else. RIP.

--Gary

Here's what I've got early Saturday morning (6/27) in Harbor City (90710) on my little analog (no inputs) portable about to make its way to the hazmat site:

Perfectly clear:
2 KCBS "How to" for DTV

Mostly-unwatchable snowy:
25 KNET-CA spanish language religious
27 KNLA-LP spanish language religious / infomercials
33 KSMV-LP "JTV" looks like home shopping
45 KLAU-LP infomercials

Nothing else. RIP.

--Gary

I am getting the same channel lineup, plus ch. 67 KHTV-LP (Home Shopping Network) and ch. 6 with strong interference. Channels 4, 5, 22 and 63 are all gone now. I wonder if this is permanent. BTW ch. 45 is now showing a big band short. Last night they were playing a Three Stooges cartoon, so it is not all infomercials.

Yep, I followed all the advice for rabbit ears - no luck. All my neighbors pay for TV but friends down the street can't get a lock with a simple VHF antenna either. I'm finding out how bad VHF sucks for indoor antenna reception.

I just want to get something that I can hang in my 4'x8' window (it will be hidden behind the curtain), which is in the direction of Mt. Wilson, and will get better reception than rabbit ears. Any suggestions?

Have you tried moving your rabbit ears over to the window? Unfortunately most good VHF antennas are designed for roof top or attic installs. They are generally large and not designed to be mounted indoors.

If you have line of sight to Mt Wilson, betcha this kind of thing will work, it works for me even without line of sight.
http://www.target.com/GE-HDTV-Quantum-Antenna-Silver/dp/B000W8XQJC/ref=sc_qi_detailbutton?ie=UTF8&pf_rd_r=067G1TP7Q8SGDZDXGFWF&pf_rd_p=465357931&pf_rd_i=B000W8XQJC&pf_rd_s=bottom-6&pf_rd_m=A1VC38T7YXB528&pf_rd_t=5101

As I was beginning to suspect, the analog station I am receiving on ch 45 is not KLAU-LP, but rather KSKJ in Van Nuys. Apparently it was formerly on ch 38. It has been playing mostly old movies, etc., and there is some interference from another station, probably KLAU. You can read more about it at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KSKP-CA