Did anyone notice that tvfool shows KCBS (43) in the Verdugo Hills rather than Mt. Wilson and doesn't list the virtual channel (which should be 2-1)??????

KCBS is being listed by its STA they filed when it was thought that Mount Wilson might burn. Andy will need to be made aware of it.

- Trip

Same thing happened to me. I have a Silver Sensor that used to pick up all the channels before the switch even though I don't have a direct line of sight to Mt. Wilson. My windows actually face the opposite direction.
Now a pair of rabbit ears work better but have to also adjust for different channels. As I understand it the Silver Sensor is UHF only. So that's the reason it doesn't pick up a lot of the stations.

I get very frustrated. If I have some money left over this month i'm going to buy one of these: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HBU22 and install it in my apartment building's roof. I chose this antenna because some of the major channels are in the VHF HI area which this antenna should be able to pick up? Any thoughts? Here's the info I got from TV fool:
http://i37.tinypic.com/5btyqd.jpg


I was looking at this one, the Square Shooter....

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=OBO-SS-2000&d=OPEN-BOX-ITEM--Winegard-SquareShooter-HighBand-VHFUHF-Amplified-DigitalAnalogHDTV-Antenna-System-%28SS2000%29&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=615798396305

But it says it can only tune 7-13. Does it stand to reason that I wouldn't be able to receive 2-5 using this? If not, my last resort would probably be going with gonzo's choice.

I was looking at this one, the Square Shooter....

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=OBO-SS-2000&d=OPEN-BOX-ITEM--Winegard-SquareShooter-HighBand-VHFUHF-Amplified-DigitalAnalogHDTV-Antenna-System-%28SS2000%29&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=615798396305

But it says it can only tune 7-13. Does it stand to reason that I wouldn't be able to receive 2-5 using this? If not, my last resort would probably be going with gonzo's choice.

You do know, don't you, that 2,4,5 are now actually on UHF? I don't think there is anything in the LA area on 2-6 now (with the possible exception of low power).

Note also that this antenna is stated to be poorer on VHF than UHF and that you can't really rely on the stated range (since it is a maximum) so depending on your location it still may not do the job for you.

I just saw the Winegard HD-1080 2 Bay Bowtie (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD-1080&d=Winegard-HD1080-2Bay-Bowtie-UHF-and-High-Band-VHF-Antenna-(HD1080)&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=615798398767). With this one I might be able to pull in channel 63.1 which is MTV 3.
So which one do you guys recommend based on my TV Fool data posted above?

I get very frustrated. If I have some money left over this month i'm going to buy one of these: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HBU22 and install it in my apartment building's roof. I chose this antenna because some of the major channels are in the VHF HI area which this antenna should be able to pick up? Any thoughts?

The HBU-22 worked well for an attic installation I did at 51 miles, with limited LOS. I think it will be plenty for you.

Another one to consider is the Winegard 7694:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD7694P&d=Winegard-HD-7694P-High-Definition-VHFUHF-HDHD769-Series-Antenna-%28HD7694P%29&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=615798398446

Don't bother with a Square Shooter or the Winegard HD-1080. Both are poor at upper VHF.

The Absurdity of VHF

Ok. I'm at the office today and getting ABC was a priority with College Football on. Attached are a few pictures so show what lengths I went to to get KABC here, in Tustin, CA, a moderate to strong signal area.

I ended up using the CM4221 as a reflector as I couldn't get the HDTVi to work, regardless of what I did with the rabbit ears.

To demonstrate just how effective RF 7 is in a situation like this, I've attached a comparison for a low-power digital station on 33 (KSMV-LP, or whatever we should call it). KABC/7 is certainly no better than that here. The difference is that I don't have to go through back-flips to make KABC 7 as good as low power KSMV-LP 33.

I have complained to KABC a bunch of times about 7. Is anyone else? I would rather see them as a 15kW UHF LD station than staying on RF7.

Thanks Falcon_77 for the views. At least you can watch some football!

Haven't made any effort for VHF with 70 miles and a 500 foot hill to contend with. Haven't seen any research that it would be feasible. Have read about the problems others have been having pulling in the VHF Stations.

But before I sign off on the viability of the VHF-hi band for DTV as necessarily "absurd." Is it so much the unsuitability of the band that's involved here or the poor decision to try and run at these relatively low power levels the stations are using down in the low tens of kilowatts ERP?

Shouldn't they all be in the 100+ KW ERP range?

For the last 4 days, KNBC's power was so far down I nearly lost lock on it. I'm LOS at about 20 miles and it usually booms in. Anybody know what is up? All the rest of the channels are normal.

I haven't tracked KNBC's signal strength since 17 September, so I don't know when they fixed whatever it was that was broken, but I note that they're back up to 30.3 dB (from 19 dB on 9/17/09) at my West LA location.

Picking up UHF Stations at 700-1000 KW. VHF would seem to need to be equivalent to that to be picked up out here in the fringe using refraction.

KNBC4 has been running 10db, and sometimes solid at cool temperatures. Colder the better. Winter is coming.

Where is KBEH's transmitter really located? It is supposed to be on Mt. Wilson, yet TVFool gives a direction and distance that would place it somewhere in northern Ventura County! What gives?

It used to be in Ventura County, but now is on Mount Wilson.

- Trip

Notes from all over:

KFLA-LD has replaced White Springs TV with paid programming, apparently from CornerStoreTV. Picture quality is not that great in the grand scheme of things - it's noisy and has noticeable artifacts - but it's stupendous by KFLA standards, and on par with the other LPs. Their two blank PSID's are gone. It looks like we may have to declare KBEH the market's new Official Embarrassment.

KWHY (22) still has a "phantom" standard def stream of their regular programming with no PSID.

There's an Italian channel on 31-3. RAItalia, the international version of the Italian public national broadcaster (so says Wikipedia). Cool. I wonder how big an audience this would have in Southern California?

There's some sort of new (I think) Spanish religion on 31-5, identified as V-TV. At the moment they're showing MPEGs and AVIs of in-church musical performances (identified as such onscreen), with badly screwed-up interlacing and huge glitches between videos.

31-7 is a blank PSID, identifying itself as TBWTV.

62-2 still has their HTTV USA Chinese thing going. The picture quality is now watchable, and appears to be more dependent on the source than on any encoding anomalies.

As noted earlier, KBEH's PSID is still on the blink, coming up as 24-something instead of 63-1 and -2. And the stretch-o-vision continues. Weenies.

And oh yeah ... KLAU-LP (45 analog) is off the air.

Gawd I'm such a geek .....

Notes from all over:


31-7 is a blank PSID, identifying itself as TBWTV.



Wonder what the digital channels lineup will look like a year or two from now because I do not see how the market can support so many Chinese channels as TBWTV is yet another one. It would be surprising to me if this new channel survives the two years.

http://tbwtv.net/

Shouldn't they all be in the 100+ KW ERP range?

That would help put upper VHF stations on the level, but judging from my experience with KNTV in San Francisco (103kW), they would still be at a disadvantage for indoor antennas. Power can only cure so many ills.

FLO TV - Pre-Amp Warning

As many of us are aware, Qualcomm has been broadcasting FLO TV on RF 55 for some time now. However, we did not previously have specific site info available. Thanks to Trip, we now do:

http://www.rabbitears.info/mediaflo.php?request=list

Note that some/(most?) of these are not operating yet. As expected, there is one in the Mt. Wilson area (Mt. Harvard), which shouldn't cause problems for pre-amps. However, what about Corona, Banning, Riverside, etc.?

I have one at 9 miles (50kW), right off of the 73 toll road where Jill-FM is. A look at Qualcomm's coverage map, suggests it isn't operating yet, however.

http://www.flotv.com/whats-on-flo-tv/map

Old pre-amps are likely to have more and more problems as services sign on in the 52-69 area. We also have to be concerned about WSD's (White Space Devices), eventually. I fully expect that I will need to retire my CM7777 at some point.

http://www.rabbitears.info/mediaflo.php?request=list&state=CA&market_name=Los+Angeles

That list might be more concise for the area.

Also, this map: http://www.rabbitears.info/mediaflo.php?request=map&state=CA&market_name=Los+Angeles

Will give a visual idea of where the transmitters are. Note that the blue ones are those 36 μW ones and those are unlikely to cause issues.

- Trip

And oh yeah ... KLAU-LP (45 analog) is off the air.

So it is... I was wondering when another LP analog would sign-off (assuming it's not a temporary equipment problem).

That leaves 4 analog LP's for me: 27, 57, 67, 69

3 of these are in the auctioned spectrum, (52-69) and are likely to get bumped eventually. 57 and 69 have the same programming as well.

Thanks again, Trip. I will have to model a micro-watt one, just to see how far it will go... a couple blocks? No AGL info, so I will assume cell-tower height. I'm not too worried about those, but the 50kW ones could certainly be an issue.

KTAV-LP 69 has a digital permit for channel 46.

KNLA-LP 27 is already operating on channel 50.

K55KD 57 has applied for a permit for channel 30 that remains pending.

I don't see a license for a channel 67...

- Trip

Thanks again, Trip. I will have to model a micro-watt one, just to see how far it will go... a couple blocks? No AGL info, so I will assume cell-tower height. I'm not too worried about those, but the 50kW ones could certainly be an issue.

I have height above sea level for them, but no AGL. It's yours if you want it.

- Trip

I don't see a license for a channel 67...

KHTV-LP, Inland Empire. Home Shopping Network. Also available on 20-3.

The FCC seems to be "losing" Southern California's analog LP licenses, don't they. :confused:

They never got most of them right anyway. Many of the LP's I could receive were for applications only and not grants. e.g., K55KD on 57. I'm assuming that Qualcomm booted them off of 55 years ago, as they have been on 57 as long as I've been tracking it.

Of course, the FCC still has an LP License on 48, which used to give a co-channel warning on TV Fool to KOCE 48.

KHTV-LP, Inland Empire. Home Shopping Network. Also available on 20-3.

The FCC seems to be "losing" Southern California's analog LP licenses, don't they. :confused:

Ah, thanks. I see it's on 67 under STA.

They've applied to operate channels 5 or 27.

- Trip

KTBN 45 on the air. Channel 17 (Construction Permit) or 23 still dark.

Well the rain brought with it major reception problems with KCBS and KNBC to me here in Cerritos.

I have to get up there and check my connections. Everyone else doing okay with the rain?

Well the rain brought with it major reception problems with KCBS and KNBC to me here in Cerritos.

I have to get up there and check my connections. Everyone else doing okay with the rain?

I did not check today, but for the sunday nfl i had problems bcos it was gloomy. i moved the indoor antenna a little bit up and closer to the window on the 2nd floor, pushed the curtains aside, and was good.

Well the rain brought with it major reception problems with KCBS and KNBC to me here in Cerritos.

I have to get up there and check my connections. Everyone else doing okay with the rain?

Before the DTV transition I kept losing both KCOP-DT 13 and KDOC-DT 56 on my DirecTV AM21 ATSC tuner module and the TV set's integrated digital tuner whenever it would rain, but never on any of the DTV converter boxes I have here (Zenith DTT900s). Now since the transition when KCOP-DT moved to their old analog frequency on channel 13, I'm still getting it with the rain on all my ATSC tuners now. Though I honestly can't say what will happen if the rain downfall becomes more intense.

However KDOC-DT is still problematic being the same as before where it disappears when it rains on all but the Zenith DTV converter boxes.

Obviously superior tuners to my others...

[Winegard HD-7697P VHF-hi/UHF high gain directional antenna aimed at Mt. Wilson]

KBEH-DT is still transmitting from South Mtn in Ventura County. KBEH does have an on channel booster on Mt. Harvard also on DT 24. They are still constructing their full power facilities at Mt. Harvard.

KBEH-DT is still transmitting from South Mtn in Ventura County. KBEH does have an on channel booster on Mt. Harvard also on DT 24. They are still constructing their full power facilities at Mt. Harvard.

And while they're at it perhaps KBEH should seriously consider "constructing" a new PSIP system because their present one is apparently a train wreck. ;)

Also please drop the stretch-o-vision :)

Yes I know I promised I wouldn't say anything more on it, but... ;)

Rain is killing channel 11 for me over on the west side, in the shadow of some high rise.

Still getting 7 OK, and 28, and all others.

Well the rain brought with it major reception problems with KCBS and KNBC to me here in Cerritos.

I have to get up there and check my connections. Everyone else doing okay with the rain?

Well that was weird. It was breaking up this morning, but now in the evening with time to fix the problems everything is fine. Go figure!

Good info in here.

Rain is killing channel 11 for me over on the west side, in the shadow of some high rise.

Still getting 7 OK, and 28, and all others.

Reception seems to be holding up fine here, with all of the VHF station continuing to come in solidly as always, as far as I have checked. 28 is often problematic here, as usual, with occasional "hiccups". The real acid test for reception, however, is not rain, but when we get a strong Santa Ana.

Reception seems to be holding up fine here, with all of the VHF station continuing to come in solidly as always, as far as I have checked. 28 is often problematic here, as usual, with occasional "hiccups". The real acid test for reception, however, is not rain, but when we get a strong Santa Ana.Rain/Wet weather killed my KCBS2 and KABC7. :(

--

10/15/2009 12:15 AM PDT: KABC7 was working again, near 100% when I checked again. KCBS2 is still not there. :(

10/15/2009 12:22 AM PDT: KABC7 completely fell to 15% and lost it hard. :( Obviously, KCBS2 is still down too.

10/15/2009 12:45 AM PDT: I had to adjust my rabbit ears at different angles. And I noticed a small water leak on the ceiling from the rain. Ugh.

Well that was weird. It was breaking up this morning, but now in the evening with time to fix the problems everything is fine. Go figure!Don't you love that? Things change so much!

The classic stylized 5 that was popular from the 80's until 1995 has returned! I just noticed KTLA's new station bug and was pleased to see what was once old is now new again.

No more references to The CW and that stupid Nike-like swoosh. I'd always hated that logo.

I welcome back our old 5, it's been too long. Now dump the entire block of CW programming and bring back "Movie For A <Insert Day Here> Evening" w/ limited commercial interruption.

Okay maybe that's pushing it.

The classic stylized 5 that was popular from the 80's until 1995 has returned! I just noticed KTLA's new station bug and was pleased to see what was once old is now new again.

No more references to The CW and that stupid Nike-like swoosh. I'd always hated that logo.

I welcome back our old 5, it's been too long. Now dump the entire block of CW programming and bring back "Movie For A <Insert Day Here> Evening" w/ limited commercial interruption.

Okay maybe that's pushing it.I miss their Twilight Zone marathons!!

KNBC4 was rock solid at 10%. KTLA5 was spotty. KPXN ION intermittent. KPXN has to travel a longer distance, whereas KNBC4 (about 700KW), and KTLA5 (1000KW) are from Mount Wilson.

The weather over the hills and through the San Fernando Valley makes a huge impact out here on the fringe.

Wondering what the difference is between KNBC4 is and KTLA5 is besides power, where they are located on Mount Wilson, and what type of tranmitting antenna they have.

At least we can still watch tv!

KNBC4 was rock solid at 10%...Wait, rock solid at 10%? How is that even watchable? I haven't seen any tuners, including converter boxes, be able to handle signal strengths that low. :(

I miss their Twilight Zone marathons!!

So do I! Still, I do, however, have the complete DVD set and can watch any episode anytime. BTW there was a big Twilight Zone convetion this past weekend in Burbank, and we were able to meet many of the actors in person.

Wait, rock solid at 10%? How is that even watchable? I haven't seen any tuners, including converter boxes, be able to handle signal strengths that low. :(

Keep in mind that the scales are not absolute; rather different receivers are calibrated differently. This might correspond to 20% or more on yours.

I noticed last night that KBEH was gone again. Couldn't pick it up on 63 or 24. Not even a faint signal on RF 24. KFLA 8 was also gone. It is my weakest channel, but had been pretty reliable for the last couple of months.

I remember seeing an earlier post that someone had an application to broadcast on RF30. What is the likelihood that it will be approved?

I currently receive KPBS from San Diego on RF30, channel 15. I doubt I'll be able to receive it if someone starts broadcasting on RF30 from Mt Wilson.

Noticed that when the temperature is below 60 deg. f. the reliability of the signal is at its peak due to refraction. Even at small amounts the signal could be rock solid.

When there is a cold ocean breeze then the signal will get stronger then weaker as the cold air blows by, then the temp. slightly increases within the air left behind by the gust. Until the next gust.

I remember seeing an earlier post that someone had an application to broadcast on RF30. What is the likelihood that it will be approved?

I currently receive KPBS from San Diego on RF30, channel 15. I doubt I'll be able to receive it if someone starts broadcasting on RF30 from Mt Wilson.

Can I ask what you're using for an antenna to pick up San Diego? Do you have reliable reception? What other stations are you getting from San Diego? I'm near Jamboree & Irvine Blvd, and I've always assumed that trying to pick up stations from San Diego would be hopeless.


I currently have a big Radio Shack directional VHF/UHF antenna in my attic (with an amplifier) pointed at Mt. Wilson. I've always had perfect reception of all full power digital LA stations, both before and after the transition. I've toyed with the idea of putting up second antenna pointed at San Diego, but figured that my chances of getting usable reception were too low to make the effort worthwhile. But if you're getting KPBS, maybe I've got a chance after all.

No KBEH here either. Must've been rained out. I'm also not getting KFLA-LD, but that's not that unusual, and I don't intend to let it get me down.

The good news is that those of us who just don't have nearly enough infomercials on their TV are being rescued by KNLA-LD (who, just as an aside, was the signal I lost to rain fade, not surprising given that their signal strength is usually marginal here anyway). There is now a 20-4, identified on the PSID as "CORNERS". And yippieee! They're showing infomercials. Miracle weight loss! Results not typical!

Thank the Lord I'm here to see this new golden age of television.

Can I ask what you're using for an antenna to pick up San Diego? Do you have reliable reception? What other stations are you getting from San Diego? I'm near Jamboree & Irvine Blvd, and I've always assumed that trying to pick up stations from San Diego would be hopeless.

I have a channel master 4228HD. Bought it at Fry's a couple of months ago, off 405 @ Euclid. They are not by the rest of their antennas & TV stuff. When you first enter the store, turn right & they are in the middle of the aisle toward the back.

Besides KPBS, I get KSWB Fox 69(RF 19) & KNSD NBC 40(RF 39). All three are always strong. Channels 8 & 10 come & go. Have not been able to receive KUSI or XETV as they are on the same RFs as 18 & TBN from Mt Wilson. If another station starts to broadcast on RF30 from MT Wilson, I won't be able to receive KPBS.

I'm on a hill in Turtle Rock, so not sure if you'll be as lucky with these 3 stations. I have the antenna sitting on my back patio leaning against the house.

Keep in mind that the scales are not absolute; rather different receivers are calibrated differently. This might correspond to 20% or more on yours.Thanks.

FYI: K55KD application for Ch30 indicates only 10 kW ERP with limited coverage towards San Diego:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=52216
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1283926.html

I noticed last night that KBEH was gone again. Couldn't pick it up on 63 or 24. Not even a faint signal on RF 24. KFLA 8 was also gone. It is my weakest channel, but had been pretty reliable for the last couple of months.

Yeah...

Can't speak for KBEH's original South Mountain DTV transmitter in Ventura County, but their Mt. Wilson (or more accurately Mt. Harvard) axillary DTV transmitter is definitely off the air.

Still receiving KBEH's 63-1 (or 24-2) local programming from DirecTV, so perhaps that means the South Mountain transmitter is still up unless they have a direct link to DirecTV's L.A. broadcast center or something.

Still receiving KFLA-LD on 8-1 and 8-2... though I wish I didn't. ;)

Don't think this area would get KBEH from South Mountain. Think that's over by Fillmore, Santa Paula. Don't think that KBEH is broadcasting from there, but do not know.

No KBEH here either. I thought I might see something from South Mountain if it is even on the air, but, in any case, I am seeing nothing at present.

Don't think this area would get KBEH from South Mountain. Think that's over by Fillmore, Santa Paula. Don't think that KBEH is broadcasting from there, but do not know.

Goggle Maps has KBEH's main transmitter somewhere along the trek and then just north of "S Mountain Lookout Rd." specifically located in Santa Paula, CA.

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=34.330278,-119.023333&spn=0.002,0.002&t=m&q=34.330278,-119.023333

No KBEH here either. I thought I might see something from South Mountain if it is even on the air, but, in any case, I am seeing nothing at present.

Nothing from South Mountain either huh?

DirecTV must have a dedicated link to their station then, satellite, terrestrial microwave, or fiber.

Nothing from South Mountain either huh?

DirecTV must have a dedicated link to their station then, satellite, terrestrial microwave, or fiber.

I can't say for sure that it is not on the air. I do not know if I can receive South Mountain here or not, and it would be coming in on the back side of my antenna, since it is almost exactly 180° away from Mt. Wilson for me. In any case, I was not getting anything.

I'm on a hill in Turtle Rock, so not sure if you'll be as lucky with these 3 stations. I have the antenna sitting on my back patio leaning against the house.

Yeah, Turtle Rock would make a difference, all right. But it sounds like it would be worth a try for me with an amplified high-gain directional in my attic. KPBS would be my primary interest. If I'm really lucky, an antenna with sufficient back-rejection might be able to avoid a conflict if LA gets something on RF30, since they're pretty much in opposite directions for me.

Thanks for the info.

Yeah, Turtle Rock would make a difference, all right. But it sounds like it would be worth a try for me with an amplified high-gain directional in my attic. KPBS would be my primary interest. If I'm really lucky, an antenna with sufficient back-rejection might be able to avoid a conflict if LA gets something on RF30, since they're pretty much in opposite directions for me.

Thanks for the info.

Good luck. KPBS was the primary channel I wanted to pick up as well.

I still need to find a spot where I can place an antenna(3rd antenna) & reliably pick up KVCR. TVFool indicates that I should have a stronger signal from KVCR than from the San Diego stations.

So I temporarily put the CM4228 under an eve on my lower roof and it came in for the 1st day ok, but wouldn't stay locked the next day. I have metal shingles which may be causing a problem. None of my neighbors have antennas on their roofs, & I don't want to be the 1st one to battle the association over a roof top antenna. So moving it to a higher spot on the roof is probably not going to happen.

I still need to find a spot where I can place an antenna(3rd antenna) & reliably pick up KVCR. TVFool indicates that I should have a stronger signal from KVCR than from the San Diego stations.

Wow, good luck with that one. I've been looking at the interactive government DTV map site http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ for my reference. The Santa Ana Mountains are between Irvine and KVCR's transmitter - I don't see any way to get their signal unless or they decide to add a repeater site to cover the coastal side of the mountains (they could theoretically do that, since they are part of the LA DMA). However, I don't anticipate their ever having the money to do that, and I suspect that the 3 PBS stations on this side wouldn't welcome a 4th one.

I'm impressed that you could get them at all. I'm a lot closer to the mountains than you are, so I don't think I'd have the slightest chance at receiving them.

Good luck. KPBS was the primary channel I wanted to pick up as well.

I still need to find a spot where I can place an antenna(3rd antenna) & reliably pick up KVCR. TVFool indicates that I should have a stronger signal from KVCR than from the San Diego stations.

So I temporarily put the CM4228 under an eve on my lower roof and it came in for the 1st day ok, but wouldn't stay locked the next day. I have metal shingles which may be causing a problem. None of my neighbors have antennas on their roofs, & I don't want to be the 1st one to battle the association over a roof top antenna. So moving it to a higher spot on the roof is probably not going to happen.


I was picking up KPBS for a while earlier this evening, 143 miles away. Reception of it, and other San Diego stations, is a bit erratic this late in the year, however. The best time is typically July through September.

I'm in north OC (Placentia) and have been using a Clearstream 4 in the attic for about a year now. All has been good as far as reception, but suddenly this week KABC reception is really bad (2 of 6 signal strength in Vista Media Center) and KTBN is completely dead (1 of 6) I don't watch KTBN much, but KABC is pretty important.

KNBC, KTLA, KTTV, KCOP are all 6 of 6, KCAL is 5 of 6. (These have been consistent as long as I've been using an antenna. I do use a Channel Master 7777 amp. According to Antennaweb, KABC should be my strongest station. I'm wondering if the signal is too stong. Any suggestions?

Well, may have answered the question. I went up into the attic, and we've just had some electrical run for some additional outlets in our livingroom. Some of the RG-6 seemed to be run parallel close to some of the new romex. I moved the cable to cross the romex at a right angle, and KABC seems to be much better. (5 of 6 signal strength in VMC) It's quad shielded RG-6, but maybe some interference was causing the problem? (KTBN is stiil dead)

It looks like KTBN has now fired up their new DTV transmitter on channel 33. I am getting a 95 in Sherman Oaks.

Well, may have answered the question. I went up into the attic, and we've just had some electrical run for some additional outlets in our livingroom. Some of the RG-6 seemed to be run parallel close to some of the new romex. I moved the cable to cross the romex at a right angle, and KABC seems to be much better. (5 of 6 signal strength in VMC) It's quad shielded RG-6, but maybe some interference was causing the problem? (KTBN is stiil dead)

The balun of the C4 makes the coax shield part of the VHF reception design.

You did the correct thing to fix the problem.

Not sure about KTBN... would almost have to be unique to their operation. Perform a "double rescan" and see if that brings it back.

It looks like KTBN has now fired up their new DTV transmitter on channel 33. I am getting a 95 in Sherman Oaks.

So it is. I can now actually receive KTBN. Previously it was impossible here in Granada Hills 95% of the time, even with a good roof antenna. Now it is putting a solid signal, although it is weak, running only about 32%.

Hi All,

been trying to follow this thread .. but at 211 pages ... it's a little difficult. although with the search, i see many people have issues with KTTV (11.1)

I got a UHF antenna to test and see what I could pick up. I just pointed it out my window towards mt wilson - got Fox no problem and got the other major stations 2,4,5,7,9,13 at 100% signal.

I moved the antenna onto the roof pointed at 19 deg (magnetic) which is what TVFOOL says to point towards. //www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d03fb2c1eb33dce (my results) and I lost channel 11 ... now only 30% - others are still fine at 100%

I have a ClearStream 2 Long Range HDTV Antenna //www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9119642&st=clearstream&lp=4&type=product&cp=1&id=1218027044954

Tried rescanning after the move .. no help. Any help or suggestions?

~ mark

Hi All,

been trying to follow this thread .. but at 211 pages ... it's a little difficult. although with the search, i see many people have issues with KTTV (11.1)

I got a UHF antenna to test and see what I could pick up. I just pointed it out my window towards mt wilson - got Fox no problem and got the other major stations 2,4,5,7,9,13 at 100% signal.

I moved the antenna onto the roof pointed at 19 deg (magnetic) which is what TVFOOL says to point towards. //www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d03fb2c1eb33dce (my results) and I lost channel 11 ... now only 30% - others are still fine at 100%

I have a ClearStream 2 Long Range HDTV Antenna //www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=9119642&st=clearstream&lp=4&type=product&cp=1&id=1218027044954

Tried rescanning after the move .. no help. Any help or suggestions?

~ mark

Mark,

My comment immediately above relating to the C4 applies even more so to the C2 (and the C1).

Your coax is the VHF receiving element. Your relocation to the roof probably eliminated a horizontal cable run than had been doing the job in the temporary location.

I've had excellent experimental results by doing the following:

1) Make certain the coax isn't fed inside a metal mast pole as this will eliminate virtually all VHF signal.
2) Experiment with a horizontal coax run that is perpendicular to the LOS to the signal source in order to expose a sufficient length of the cable to the signal.

My most recent experiment involved using a length of the coax feedline measuring about 28-30" to create a half-circle loop that was allowed to extend beyond the reflector (exposing it to more direct signal radiation). I didn't have much time to experiment further that day and didn't have my camera along to snap any pictures.

Check this post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16889753&highlight=photobucket#post16889753 and several following for a very early observation I made of this effect. The larger loop is far more effective than the first effort. My next idea will be to select a length of 1/2" PEX tubing (or similar) to form a more rigid skeleton to hold the coax into the desired shape and position.

Any such loop, if executed perfectly, would result in a near unity gain high VHF antenna. With a forecasted NM of over 45 dB at your location, you have a lot of margin for inefficiency (excluding multipath effects) while still achieving satisfactory results.

ProjectSHO89: Can you look into a picture of this setup? How many db per linear feet is your improvement? Sounds like a huge improvement in signal.
From what I understand this is for VHF only?

Congratulations on your accomplishment.

Confirmed ... KTBN has moved to physical channel 33, and KSMV-LP (31-1, which was on physical channel 33) has left the building.

Have had no issues with KTTV (FOX 11) until this weekend, October 17. Now I get nothing ("Weak or no signal"). Anyone else having this issue?

Have had no issues with KTTV (FOX 11) until this weekend, October 17. Now I get nothing ("Weak or no signal"). Anyone else having this issue?

No problems here.

ProjectSHO89: Can you look into a picture of this setup? How many db per linear feet is your improvement? Sounds like a huge improvement in signal.
From what I understand this is for VHF only?

Congratulations on your accomplishment.

Thanks.

Yes, it is for VHF only as the ClearStream antennas are already excellent UHF antennas for many consumers especially when their compact size and easy aiming characteristics are considered.

I don't think it's a matter of improved signal strength per unit of length. I believe it has more to do with the electrical length of the loop relative to what is needed to be somewhat resonant at the desired receiving frequencies. I picked the 28-30" length based on a leap of logic from the length of my copper pipe folded dipole. According to my spectrum analyzer, my results when from almost a flat ZERO high-VHF signal when the coax was immediately inserted into the steel mast pole to a signal of similar amplitude to that from my pipe dipole when the experimental loop was extended beyond the reflector and was adjusted to be perpendicular to the signal.

My ability to do field experiments is complicated my the lack of any near high-VHF stations. The closest are over 70 miles away and, as it happened, I had to run a service call for a computer client out in central Missouri several weeks ago. I was strapped for time and didn't have the opportunity to call in any favors to get more stuff to play with. Consequently, I only had my personal gear with me that afternoon. Don't know when I'll get back out that way again unless I make a special trip.

Confirmed ... KTBN has moved to physical channel 33, and KSMV-LP (31-1, which was on physical channel 33) has left the building.

KVMD-DT 31.1 (physical channel 23) is gone for me as well. Instead on channel 23, I get XETV from San Diego.

I would imagine KSMV-LD had to go off the air. They just filed to amend their channel 23 application and specified a new antenna, so I would assume that they do not yet have any channel 23 gear in place.

- Trip

No problems here.No problems here for me right now and I am under 20 miles from the transmitters with a basic rabbit ears in my room's closet. 75% on one of my HDTV tuner cards.

A few questions:

1) What does your TVFool.com plot look like? 91342 extends up into the mountains, so it's impossible to run an accurate plot based on the ZIP code alone.

2) Did you perform a double re-scan for the new physical channel 11? I'm assuming so, since it appears you receive 7 and 9.

3) Have you tried installing an FM trap? Strong FM signals nearby can impair upper VHF reception.

4) Did you previously receive KTTV on 65, before the transition, or were you using the analog signal.

5) Can you add an outdoor class antenna?

KTTV has a CP to increase their power, but it is unknown when the work would actually start.

Make sure to complain to the station. They have never responded to my complaints, but I also complained to the FCC last month.

It's too bad that no one can see what is happening on Mt. Wilson from their back-yards. Well, at least w/o a telescope! :D


wow sorry for the so late reply

I have a winegard sharpshooter amplified outdoor antenna mounted onto a metal pole on top of the roof.

I dont have an FM trap

TV fool doesn't load up for me

Yes I did used to receive KTTV on 65

yea Other channels are fine its only Channel 11 and 13 that i don't get at all.

well I can receive KTTV-DT channel 11-1 and KCOP-DT 13-1 okay with an indoor rabbit ears antenna on my bedroom TV with a DigitalStream tv converter box. I also have an indoor UHF bow-tie antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062017) I bought from Radio Shack (a nice bargain) that can receive a lot of digital TV stations pretty well.
channel 11-1 moved from RF Frequency 65 to 11 after the DTV transition

I get about 70% signal quality on KTTV with barely no problems.
For KCOP 13.1, I get around 55% to 60% signal quality; some breakup in the picture but at least I can receive it okay with my indoor antenna.

btw, I live in the Wilshire District section of Los Angeles

Nothing from South Mountain either huh?

DirecTV must have a dedicated link to their station then, satellite, terrestrial microwave, or fiber.

same here in LA. KBEH is the only station I have recently lost on my bedroom tv. it still has not come back.

strange. that station seems to work on the other TVs with digital cable boxes connected since the TVs in the living room and kitchen are connected to Time Warner cable socal. :confused:

KBEH is the only station I have recently lost on my bedroom tv. it still has not come back.

They're off the air.

I live in the IE and, until recently have not had a problem with TV signals. This weekend, KNBC has dropped out. Is there something up with their transmitter?

KVMD-DT 31.1 (physical channel 23) is gone for me as well. Instead on channel 23, I get XETV from San Diego.

I'm now receiving XETV as well. I'm watching South Park. It is coming in with a very strong signal. Wonder if they increased their power after TBN left RF23? TVFool says it should be my weakest San Diego station, yet it appears to be my strongest.

The fog has rolled in here & I'm wondering if that would make the signal stronger? The only reason I say that is that channels 8 & 10 are not usually reliable for me, but they both seem to be steady right now.

Mark,

My comment immediately above relating to the C4 applies even more so to the C2 (and the C1).

Your coax is the VHF receiving element. Your relocation to the roof probably eliminated a horizontal cable run than had been doing the job in the temporary location.

I've had excellent experimental results by doing the following:

1) Make certain the coax isn't fed inside a metal mast pole as this will eliminate virtually all VHF signal.
2) Experiment with a horizontal coax run that is perpendicular to the LOS to the signal source in order to expose a sufficient length of the cable to the signal.

My most recent experiment involved using a length of the coax feedline measuring about 28-30" to create a half-circle loop that was allowed to extend beyond the reflector (exposing it to more direct signal radiation). I didn't have much time to experiment further that day and didn't have my camera along to snap any pictures.

Check this post: and several following for a very early observation I made of this effect. The larger loop is far more effective than the first effort. My next idea will be to select a length of 1/2" PEX tubing (or similar) to form a more rigid skeleton to hold the coax into the desired shape and position.

Any such loop, if executed perfectly, would result in a near unity gain high VHF antenna. With a forecasted NM of over 45 dB at your location, you have a lot of margin for inefficiency (excluding multipath effects) while still achieving satisfactory results.

Project, thanks for the reply, i checked the photo and i'll try that out tuesday. I dont currently have the cable run through the mast, but the cable is zip tied to the mast, so it might be blocking the signal that way.

I also have a cell phone antenna/extender (verizon band) mounted on the same pole - both antennas use shielded rg6. Any chance the cell antenna would be interfering?

~ mark

Project, thanks for the reply, i checked the photo and i'll try that out tuesday. I dont currently have the cable run through the mast, but the cable is zip tied to the mast, so it might be blocking the signal that way.

I also have a cell phone antenna/extender (verizon band) mounted on the same pole - both antennas use shielded rg6. Any chance the cell antenna would be interfering?

~ mark

Any time you use any kind of unshielded conductors as a transmission line, you must use standoffs to keep it well away forom any metal or wet surfaces, otherwise you will kill your signal. Also you undoubtedly have a bad impedance mismatch with zip cord!

Project, thanks for the reply, i checked the photo and i'll try that out tuesday. I dont currently have the cable run through the mast, but the cable is zip tied to the mast, so it might be blocking the signal that way.

I also have a cell phone antenna/extender (verizon band) mounted on the same pole - both antennas use shielded rg6. Any chance the cell antenna would be interfering?

~ mark

I would suspect the cellular accessory might be a problem particularly if you have a pre-amp connected to the OTA antenna. If in doubt, de-power the cellular rig and see if your OTA reception is otherwise changed.

If your local stations use circular or elliptical polarization, the vertical component of that signal will more easily be exposed to the coax feed line even when it is oriented only vertically.

Wish I had something closer to play with for the high-Vhf.

There's now a 44-9. Nothing on it yet .....

Did anyone else happen to watch "Great Performances" on KCET-DT via OTA last night? This was the inaugural concert for Gustavo Dudamel at the Walt Disney Concert Hall. The reason I ask is that we experienced a lot of artifacting and pixelization between scenes which suggests to me that the bit rate of their signal was low or they were having other transmission-related problems. We have not experienced this before when watching HD programming OTA from KCET-DT

I noticed last night that KBEH was back on the air. My signal meter had it at full strength. It was on 24-2 & 24-3, still not mapping to 63.

Did anyone else happen to watch "Great Performances" on KCET-DT via OTA last night? This was the inaugural concert for Gustavo Dudamel at the Walt Disney Concert Hall. The reason I ask is that we experienced a lot of artifacting and pixelization.....

Yes, I saw it also on my 720p TV especially when they were showing the pianist hands. All I could see was blurry squares. This is what happens when KCET has three other sub-channels. Because of that, I'm guessing KCET limits the maximum bit rate on their main channel therefore producing pixelization.

well I can receive KTTV-DT channel 11-1 and KCOP-DT 13-1 okay with an indoor rabbit ears antenna on my bedroom TV with a DigitalStream tv converter box. I also have an indoor UHF bow-tie antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062017) I bought from Radio Shack (a nice bargain) that can receive a lot of digital TV stations pretty well.
channel 11-1 moved from RF Frequency 65 to 11 after the DTV transition

I get about 70% signal quality on KTTV with barely no problems.
For KCOP 13.1, I get around 55% to 60% signal quality; some breakup in the picture but at least I can receive it okay with my indoor antenna.

btw, I live in the Wilshire District section of Los Angeles

I just started reading this thread. A few more data points for info only.
I live in So. OC, 3 mi west of 5 Fwy near Crown Valley/Moulton. Its on top of a hill with a clear shot at Mt. Wilson - even tho you'll never see it because of the smog.

I have a cheapo TERK amplified VHF/UHF indoor antenna aimed direct at Mt Wilson thru my glass sliding doors to the patio/back fence. It sits on my DISH-TV box.

After the DTV transition, no KTTV-11 or KCOP-13. I read somewhere (?) that the FCC gave Channels 7,9,11,13 approval to add watts to increase lost coverage. A few days later KCOP-13 came in aok, although weak. But still no KTTV-11. Today 4 mo later - it remains the same. Once I did see KTTV-11 at borderline strength. But 5 min later it was gone never to be seen again.

So bottom line is that LA's CH 7,9,11,13 were all pretty stupid to give up their cushy UHF channels to return to weaker spots on VHF. Eveyone knows that DTV on VHF is basically much worse off than analog on VHF. At least 2,4,5 had the good sense to stay away from VHF-LO. Most, but not all, stations in the US have not used any VHF-LO. But alot of others are using VHF-HI. I have no idea why they think its such a great idea to use VHF-HI RF channels 7 thru 13.

Yes, I saw it also on my 720p TV especially when they were showing the pianist hands. All I could see was blurry squares. This is what happens when KCET has three other sub-channels. Because of that, I'm guessing KCET limits the maximum bit rate on their main channel therefore producing pixelization.

For every other program I've watched on KCET it hasn't been anywhere near this bad which leads me to believe there's something else wrong. For me it was most obvious on fades. For instance, there was a head shot of Deborah Borda and it seemed like her face was a blur for a good part of a second. Bit rate limiting wouldn't cause that (unless it was limited to less than 500kbps).

For every other program I've watched on KCET it hasn't been anywhere near this bad which leads me to believe there's something else wrong. For me it was most obvious on fades. For instance, there was a head shot of Deborah Borda and it seemed like her face was a blur for a good part of a second. Bit rate limiting wouldn't cause that (unless it was limited to less than 500kbps).

Maybe they use variable bitrate technology. Or maybe the program's post processing which inserts the fades is just plain "poor".

I remember when we had real HD source material that you could easily count 5 o'clock shadow whiskers on a guy's face. Now on Channel 7 its just a dark blur. You look at an ABC newscaster's suit up close and you use to see the threads. Now all you see is muddy flat material with hardly any definition.

Yet TV mfgrs are still upgrading their screen quality with 240 hz fefresh. Now I can see crisper blurry grass on the ball field. Why bother even buying a 1080p TV when the source input sux, 720p will do just fine until you go over 50 inch screens. 1080p and 120 or 240 Hz refresh won't make one hoot of difference except on quality DVDs.

Maybe they use variable bitrate technology. Or maybe the program's post processing which inserts the fades is just plain "poor".

I remember when we had real HD source material that you could easily count 5 o'clock shadow whiskers on a guy's face. Now on Channel 7 its just a dark blur. You look at an ABC newscaster's suit up close and you use to see the threads. Now all you see is muddy flat material with hardly any definition.

Yet TV mfgrs are still upgrading their screen quality with 240 hz fefresh. Now I can see crisper blurry grass on the ball field. Why bother even buying a 1080p TV when the source input sux, 720p will do just fine until you go over 50 inch screens. 1080p and 120 or 240 Hz refresh won't make one hoot of difference except on quality DVDs.

I forgot to mention that I think the root cause of all this is due to corporate greed. ABC/7 selected their original transmission resolution in the first place to be 720p. Now they've lowered their transmission bit rate to 11 mbps on 7.1 and upped 7.2 to 5-6 mbps. They want more revenue on 7.2 and they know that middle America can't tell the difference between 18mbps and 11mbps quality on 7.1.

I wish the FCC would formally define an "HD" quality standard so that networks like ABC etc would not be able to say "in HD" when they don't have enough bit-rate sampling as well as enough bit-rate broadcast transmission. 11 mbps is 2/3 of what it ought to be for real HD. And they need to up their material capture sample-rate higher too. But cash is king so we shall see.....

I just started reading this thread. A few more data points for info only.
I live in So. OC, 3 mi west of 5 Fwy near Crown Valley/Moulton. Its on top of a hill with a clear shot at Mt. Wilson - even tho you'll never see it because of the smog.

I have a cheapo TERK amplified VHF/UHF indoor antenna aimed direct at Mt Wilson thru my glass sliding doors to the patio/back fence. It sits on my DISH-TV box.

After the DTV transition, no KTTV-11 or KCOP-13. I read somewhere (?) that the FCC gave Channels 7,9,11,13 approval to add watts to increase lost coverage. A few days later KCOP-13 came in aok, although weak. But still no KTTV-11. Today 4 mo later - it remains the same. Once I did see KTTV-11 at borderline strength. But 5 min later it was gone never to be seen again.

So bottom line is that LA's CH 7,9,11,13 were all pretty stupid to give up their cushy UHF channels to return to weaker spots on VHF. Eveyone knows that DTV on VHF is basically much worse off than analog on VHF. At least 2,4,5 had the good sense to stay away from VHF-LO. Most, but not all, stations in the US have not used any VHF-LO. But alot of others are using VHF-HI. I have no idea why they think its such a great idea to use VHF-HI RF channels 7 thru 13.

Prior to the transition KCAL (CBS O&O station) used channel 43 for their digital transmission. KCBS is now on channel 43. The other stations KABC, KTTV and KCOP were using out of core channels for their digital transmission. That's why they returned to VHF. The LA table of channels is completely full.

Also the solution to most of the VHF problems is simply to increase power. KTTV and KCOP have approved construction permits to go from around 20 to 120 KW. I read somewhere in this forum that the increase should take place sometime next year. I'm sure you will get those stations without much trouble.

...So bottom line is that LA's CH 7,9,11,13 were all pretty stupid to give up their cushy UHF channels to return to weaker spots on VHF. Eveyone knows that DTV on VHF is basically much worse off than analog on VHF. At least 2,4,5 had the good sense to stay away from VHF-LO. Most, but not all, stations in the US have not used any VHF-LO. But alot of others are using VHF-HI. I have no idea why they think its such a great idea to use VHF-HI RF channels 7 thru 13.

Not at all! Those UHF channels were anything but "cushy". Before the move, it was impossible here to receive KCOP 13 at all, even using a good roof antenna and a preamp. And KTTV 11 was intermittent, disappearing for days at a time, and even when it was coming in would often break up and drop out. Now, on VHF both are solid 100% all the time, despite their reduced power. chs 7 and 9 were good before the transition and are still good. I only wish that it were possible for more stations to move to VHF, especially problem stations like KCET 28.

I would strongly recommend that you upgrade your antenna, preferable using a good roof antenna rated for hi-band VHF.

I have a cheapo TERK amplified VHF/UHF indoor antenna aimed direct at Mt Wilson thru my glass sliding doors to the patio/back fence. It sits on my DISH-TV box.

After the DTV transition, no KTTV-11 or KCOP-13.

Predictions show that if you can get KCAL, you should be able to get KTTV and KCOP. The operative words here are "cheapo" and "amplified." The first step is to turn off/bypass the amplifier in that antenna - you probably don't need it. The amp is also amplifying FM signals, and there are theories that DTV tuners have issues with harmonics from FM stations.

If you want to try a different indoor antenna, the best recommendation I've seen from across the 'net is the Wineguard SharpShooter (about $50, does have an amp, but better quality). If you want to go to the next step for an outdoor antenna, a Wineguard HD7078P (about $90) or a ChannelMaster 2016 or 3016. Good luck!

Not at all! Those UHF channels were anything but "cushy". Before the move, it was impossible here to receive KCOP 13 at all, even using a good roof antenna and a preamp. And KTTV 11 was intermittent, disappearing for days at a time, and even when it was coming in would often break up and drop out. Now, on VHF both are solid 100% all the time, despite their reduced power. chs 7 and 9 were good before the transition and are still good. I only wish that it were possible for more stations to move to VHF, especially problem stations like KCET 28.

I would strongly recommend that you upgrade your antenna, preferable using a good roof antenna rated for hi-band VHF.

I would like to agree with this post completely. Before the switch I got no 13 and 11 would break up on a bad day. Now 7, 9, 11, and 13 are all solid. What you need is a good VHF antenna. I use the Winegard 7015 in my attic. It is $37.99 from solidsignal.com. Its VHF is excellent and its UHF is good. It is also big as it receives 2-69.

Rick R

I would like to agree with this post completely. Before the switch I got no 13 and 11 would break up on a bad day. Now 7, 9, 11, and 13 are all solid. What you need is a good VHF antenna.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. KCOP/66's problem wasn't UHF, the problem was their antenna and/or transmitter was junk and/or got damaged and were never fixed. Also, KABC/53 had a chintzy side-mount UHF antenna. They never took their UHF allocations seriously and were waiting to go back to VHF.

I see no reason why we should be required to have VHF locally. Proper, full power, and functional UHF stations would have served much of the LA market better and would remove the need to add VHF antennas. If all of 7-13 are raised to 100+kW, they may be acceptable, but I don't think I will ever call upper VHF "ideal."

KCOP and KTTV were also weaker to the West due to their locations on Eastern Mt. Wilson and lower towers than most.

Splitting TV stations over multiple bands is an ancient problem, which we failed to fix.

It wasn't fixed because the UHF spectrum auctioned off was worth far more than VHF would have been if it was auctioned off. Anyone who thinks the DTV transition was done for any reason other than the billions of dollars made from auctioning off 52-69 is deluding themselves.

KBEH is back on the air. So, frighteningly, is KLAU-LP (analog 45). Could KLAU possibly be making any money at all off of that thing?

Looks like KXLA's 44-9 is going to be Spanish language religion under the handle "TeleImpacto." They're running a promo loop. Resolution is 528 x 480, bitrate is bobbing between .5 and 2.5 Mbps.

Still no sign of KSMV-LD (31-1) here. They were supposed to move to 23, trading places with KTBN. Is anyone receiving them?

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. KCOP/66's problem wasn't UHF, the problem was their antenna and/or transmitter was junk and/or got damaged and were never fixed. Also, KABC/53 had a chintzy side-mount UHF antenna. They never took their UHF allocations seriously and were waiting to go back to VHF.

I see no reason why we should be required to have VHF locally. Proper, full power, and functional UHF stations would have served much of the LA market better and would remove the need to add VHF antennas. If all of 7-13 are raised to 100+kW, they may be acceptable, but I don't think I will ever call upper VHF "ideal."

KCOP and KTTV were also weaker to the West due to their locations on Eastern Mt. Wilson and lower towers than most.

Splitting TV stations over multiple bands is an ancient problem, which we failed to fix.

"Proper, full power, and functional UHF stations" probably would serve most of the LA market well, however we are far from that ideal. Even today, that would for one thing, require "problem stations" like KCET, KLCS and KTBN either abandoning their unfavorable sites on eastern Mt Wilson, or else building much higher towers in their present locations. These stations still are so weak and unstable here, that they are often completely missed during a rescan. This would not be necessary for KTTV and KCOP on VHF, however, since the superior propagation characteristics of VHF now make possible rock steady reception of these stations, despite their unfavorable location, and despite their low power. Of course, if they were still on UHF, they would probably have to move also.

I agree that it is a bit of a nuisance to have to have a VHF-capable antenna, and it seems to be especially problematic for apartment dwellers and others who must use indoor antennas. Still, it may be be a small price to pay for reliable reception in a less-that-ideal environment.

Still no sign of KSMV-LD (31-1) here. They were supposed to move to 23, trading places with KTBN. Is anyone receiving them?

KVMD-DT (31.1) is still not available for me either. Maybe they changed their coverage area, but I think it is more likely that both are just still off-air.

I noticed last night that KBEH was back on the air. My signal meter had it at full strength. It was on 24-2 & 24-3, still not mapping to 63.

I'm now getting the KBEH channels on 24.1 and 24.2 in my area after a rescan, oc-rdx. signal strength on my converter box hovers around 60% which is barely good enough to receive them. I may have to re-position the uhf bow-tie antenna to improve the signal strength.

they'll probably never be "mapped" to 63, oc-rdx. if we live in LA or Orange county, that won't be possible. for those living in cities in the Ventura county, KBEH will be seen on 63.1 since the station is located in Oxnard, CA.

important to note that I have two indoor antennas hooked up to the tv converter box. the old "rabbit ears" VHF antenna which I got from my aunt's old TV set, and the UHF bow-tie antenna. at least I can get both KTTV and KCOP at satisfactory levels of reception.

"Proper, full power, and functional UHF stations" probably would serve most of the LA market well, however we are far from that ideal. Even today, that would for one thing, require "problem stations" like KCET, KLCS and KTBN either abandoning their unfavorable sites on eastern Mt Wilson, or else building much higher towers in their present locations. These stations still are so weak and unstable here, that they are often completely missed during a rescan. This would not be necessary for KTTV and KCOP on VHF, however, since the superior propagation characteristics of VHF now make possible rock steady reception of these stations, despite their unfavorable location, and despite their low power. Of course, if they were still on UHF, they would probably have to move also.

I agree that it is a bit of a nuisance to have to have a VHF-capable antenna, and it seems to be especially problematic for apartment dwellers and others who must use indoor antennas. Still, it may be be a small price to pay for reliable reception in a less-that-ideal environment.

I can get KCET-DT well in my area, even before the DTV transition. For KLCS and KTBN, I had to move the UHF bowtie antenna to a certain angle just to get better reception on those channels. At least now I'm getting much better reception of KTBN-DT after that station switched from RF channel 23 to 33.

Not at all! Those UHF channels were anything but "cushy". Before the move, it was impossible here to receive KCOP 13 at all, even using a good roof antenna and a preamp. And KTTV 11 was intermittent, disappearing for days at a time, and even when it was coming in would often break up and drop out. Now, on VHF both are solid 100% all the time, despite their reduced power. chs 7 and 9 were good before the transition and are still good. I only wish that it were possible for more stations to move to VHF, especially problem stations like KCET 28.

I would strongly recommend that you upgrade your antenna, preferable using a good roof antenna rated for hi-band VHF.

I do agree that a better antenna would certainly fix my problem - which really isn't a big issue for me. My DISH VIP722 box does HD on 7,9,11 but not 13. I was only conveying my own experience. What does surprise me is that If CH-11 is gonna go from 20 to 120KW for DTV, why did they wait so long to get started? Recession blues?

Predictions show that if you can get KCAL, you should be able to get KTTV and KCOP. The operative words here are "cheapo" and "amplified." The first step is to turn off/bypass the amplifier in that antenna - you probably don't need it. The amp is also amplifying FM signals, and there are theories that DTV tuners have issues with harmonics from FM stations.

If you want to try a different indoor antenna, the best recommendation I've seen from across the 'net is the Wineguard SharpShooter (about $50, does have an amp, but better quality). If you want to go to the next step for an outdoor antenna, a Wineguard HD7078P (about $90) or a ChannelMaster 2016 or 3016. Good luck!

Interesting viewpoint. But facts are facts. Moving an antenna 6 inches on DTV signals can significantly change what you end up seeing onscreen. Lets not forget that So. OC is at least 60-70 miles away as the crow flies to Mt. Wilson. Analog IF processing stages in a TV are vastly different than DTV's signal processors and error correction algorithms. I had already tried your advice on the tuning knob as well as the rabbit ears. The tuning knob gets the best signal strength at max; and not the min/off position.

So yes, receiving more signal strength with a better antenna obviously would help my experience or anyone elses. But the fact is that CH 7,9,11,13 are generally 'worse off' at farther distances from Mt Wilson (ie So. OC) AFTER the DTV transition date occurred. And CH 2.4.5 were unchanged because they didn't move back to their old VHF-LO bands. No DTV station in America is using VHF-LO for the obvious reasons including FM harmonic interference 'theories'.

No DTV station in America is using VHF-LO for the obvious reasons including FM harmonic interference 'theories'.

Just pointing out that this particular statement is not true. There are actually about 40 stations in the US using low-VHF. Many are finding it problematic.

- Trip

Interesting viewpoint. But facts are facts. Moving an antenna 6 inches on DTV signals can significantly change what you end up seeing onscreen. Lets not forget that So. OC is at least 60-70 miles away as the crow flies to Mt. Wilson. Analog IF processing stages in a TV are vastly different than DTV's signal processors and error correction algorithms. I had already tried your advice on the tuning knob as well as the rabbit ears. The tuning knob gets the best signal strength at max; and not the min/off position.

So yes, receiving more signal strength with a better antenna obviously would help my experience or anyone elses. But the fact is that CH 7,9,11,13 are generally 'worse off' at farther distances from Mt Wilson (ie So. OC) AFTER the DTV transition date occurred. And CH 2.4.5 were unchanged because they didn't move back to their old VHF-LO bands. No DTV station in America is using VHF-LO for the obvious reasons including FM harmonic interference 'theories'.

Please, I did check a few things out before I responded. I used the Longley-Rice predictions from TVFool to gauge predicted signal strengths in your area, which I why I said that, given everything else is equal, you should get all the VHF DTVs. So, why is everything not equal? First candidate is the amplifier in the inexpensive antennas. Since we're still stuck with VHF-low, these broadband amplifiers will capture energy from the FM band. Under certain circumstances, those amps will go non-linear and RF energy from 88-108 MHz will show up at all sorts of harmonic and cross-product frequencies. (note that I'm not talking IF at the TV) This is all presented to the ATSC receiver as noise, adding to received power. Signal strength displays for DTV receivers can be notoriously misleading.

I was just trying to help. FM harmonics have been a leading candidate for some reception problems of channels 11 and 12 in Richmond and the Baltimore/DC areas.

I'm now getting the KBEH channels on 24.1 and 24.2 in my area after a rescan, oc-rdx. signal strength on my converter box hovers around 60% which is barely good enough to receive them. I may have to re-position the uhf bow-tie antenna to improve the signal strength.

they'll probably never be "mapped" to 63, oc-rdx. if we live in LA or Orange county, that won't be possible. for those living in cities in the Ventura county, KBEH will be seen on 63.1 since the station is located in Oxnard, CA.



There is definitely something awry with KBEH regarding how it maps itself to virtual ch 63. I am using two different receivers in different parts of the house. One is a Pioneer Elite plasma that continues to map it to ch 24, and on this set KBEH appears as 24.2 and 24.3, interleaved between the corresponding subchannels of KVCR. The other is a Samsung STB used with an HD-ready Sony LCD. THe Samsung continues to map it correctly to ch 63. I believe that the Pioneer did map it correctly for a short while to ch 63 several months back, however.

AAAaaaand KLAU-LP is gone again. Sigh ... they were doing so well ...

The ol' Sansonic picked up KBEH as 24-1 and 24-1 (sic) this time. The EyeTV mapped them correctly as 63-1 and 63-2 and even picked up a program schedule (it's all "TBA," but still). Weird.

They're both showing "Doug." Weirder.

I can get KCET-DT well in my area, even before the DTV transition. For KLCS and KTBN, I had to move the UHF bowtie antenna to a certain angle just to get better reception on those channels. At least now I'm getting much better reception of KTBN-DT after that station switched from RF channel 23 to 33.

KCET is somewhat improved since the transition, probably because of the lower frequency, but still has an unstable signal at times. KOCE is rock solid all the time, and even KVCR, which it three times as far away oten puts in a better signal. You would think that the primary PBS station for the LA area should be able to put out a much better signal!

I agree that KTBN is much improved following the move to ch 33. This meant a change from no signal here 90% of the time, to a signal that is weak but watchable part of the time. They must have an especially bad location and/or antenna; I remember back in the analog days it was very snowy, at best.

No DTV station in America is using VHF-LO for the obvious reasons including FM harmonic interference 'theories'.
As Trip pointed out, there are 40 Lo-VHF stations--however, these are only the
FULL POWER allocations listed in Falcon_77's spread sheet:
http://www.rabbitears.info/ss/

There are 37+ additional Lo-VHF band users (e.g. Class A, Low Power and Repeater/Translators):
http://www.rabbitears.info/statistics.php

BIG advantages of Lo-VHF are much lower power requirements (hence cost savings) and LONG RANGE:
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=1766460001
Give or take an argument re how poorly indoor antennas work for Lo-VHF....

Judging from what I have read in other threads, electrical storms can wreak havoc with DTV signals on the lower frequencies. If true, this would especially be a problem with Low-VHF in parts of the country where they are commonplace.

Being in a DMA with a low-VHF DTV (KCWX-RF-5, at nearly 50 miles) one had better get used to living with pixelations/freeze frames during any nearby lightning activity. But, overall their signal (with a good antenna aimed at them) is now infinitely better than their nearly 9 years was as a 100-kw NTSC Ch 2 (power line noise, auto ignition, etc).

I am unable to tune in KTTV 11.1 and KCOP 13.1 using a Samsung SIR-T451.
I know it's not the antenna because I get channels a few degrees on either side of their broadcast tower and they all show full strength.

Does anyone know of any problems receiving those stations?

thx.

I am unable to tune in KTTV 11.1 and KCOP 13.1 using a Samsung SIR-T451.
I know it's not the antenna because I get channels a few degrees on either side of their broadcast tower and they all show full strength.

Does anyone know of any problems receiving those stations?

thx.

...uh, high-VHF, probably....

...uh, high-VHF, probably....

I thought about that but I receive kabc 7.1 and kcal 9.1 perfectly and they are vhf as well. All of the antennas are essential in the same location which is only 6 miles away

Is there any guide or steps I can take to troubleshoot this?

thx for the follow up.

I thought about that but I receive kabc 7.1 and kcal 9.1 perfectly and they are vhf as well. All of the antennas are essential in the same location which is only 6 miles away

Is there any guide or steps I can take to troubleshoot this?

thx for the follow up.

KTTV and KCOP are running much less power that KABC and KCAL, and that is probably the reason you can not get the latter two. Both are supposed to increase their power eventually, but in the meantime, you could try, if possible, using a high perfomance, high band VHF antenna like the Winegard YA-1713.

KTTV and KCOP are running much less power that KABC and KCAL, and that is probably the reason you can not get the latter two. Both are supposed to increase their power eventually, but in the meantime, you could try, if possible, using a high perfomance, high band VHF antenna like the Winegard YA-1713.

I'm using a Channel Master CM-3010 which is rated for vhf/uhf. I used to get KTTV fine about a year ago and KABC was always the problem, now it's the other way around. Given my close distance, it's hard to believe their signal isn't strong enough. Thanks for your input

I'm using a Channel Master CM-3010 which is rated for vhf/uhf. I used to get KTTV fine about a year ago and KABC was always the problem, now it's the other way around. Given my close distance, it's hard to believe their signal isn't strong enough. Thanks for your input

It's most likely you have a multipath problem (similar to ghosting.) The CM-3010 can receive multipath signals from all directions. I agree you should use the YA-1713 antenna which will help reduce the strength of the multipath signals.

I'm using a Channel Master CM-3010 which is rated for vhf/uhf. I used to get KTTV fine about a year ago and KABC was always the problem, now it's the other way around. Given my close distance, it's hard to believe their signal isn't strong enough. Thanks for your inputA year ago KTTV and KABC digital were on UHF. Now they are back to their VHF channel (where the analog was). /Dan

It's most likely you have a multipath problem (similar to ghosting.) The CM-3010 can receive multipath signals from all directions. I agree you should use the YA-1713 antenna which will help reduce the strength of the multipath signals.

I looked into multipath and I think you may be right. The receiver shows KTTV flashing near fully strength and then disappearing repeatedly.

Is there any other way to address a multipath problem w/o having to replace the antenna?

I looked into multipath and I think you may be right. The receiver shows KTTV flashing near fully strength and then disappearing repeatedly.

Is there any other way to address a multipath problem w/o having to replace the antenna?


Yes. Protect the antenna from any signal except those from straight ahead.

I saw a set of pictures from a guy down in Georgia put a 2-bay UHF antenna inside a metal garbage can to make a "cannon" pointed to his primary signal path.

Of course, on VHF, it might take a dumpster instead of a garbage can....

Otherwise, get a more directional antenna.

I looked into multipath and I think you may be right. The receiver shows KTTV flashing near fully strength and then disappearing repeatedly.

Is there any other way to address a multipath problem w/o having to replace the antenna?

I seen posts where they put a large square reflector made out of aluminum foil mounted on a piece of cardboard or foam behind the antenna. This will certainly cut out multipath signals coming from the rear. You will have to try different separation distances to see if this helps your reception.

Or Chicken Wire....as much as you can fit.....

And as always: Location, Location, Location....

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. KCOP/66's problem wasn't UHF, the problem was their antenna and/or transmitter was junk and/or got damaged and were never fixed. Also, KABC/53 had a chintzy side-mount UHF antenna. They never took their UHF allocations seriously and were waiting to go back to VHF.

I see no reason why we should be required to have VHF locally. Proper, full power, and functional UHF stations would have served much of the LA market better and would remove the need to add VHF antennas. If all of 7-13 are raised to 100+kW, they may be acceptable, but I don't think I will ever call upper VHF "ideal."

KCOP and KTTV were also weaker to the West due to their locations on Eastern Mt. Wilson and lower towers than most.

Splitting TV stations over multiple bands is an ancient problem, which we failed to fix.

My point is this. I live in a very difficult OTA location (I am 3 miles directly behind a 2714' peak). Yet I get 7, 9, 11, and 13 perfectly because I have a GOOD VHF antenna.

Rick R

My point is this. I live in a very difficult OTA location (I am 3 miles directly behind a 2714' peak). Yet I get 7, 9, 11, and 13 perfectly because I have a GOOD VHF antenna.

Rick R

I was in the same situation. I could never receive KCOP because of hills between me and Mt. Wilson. After the switchover, all VHF HI stations come in (more) loud and clear.

I was in the same situation. I could never receive KCOP because of hills between me and Mt. Wilson. After the switchover, all VHF HI stations come in (more) loud and clear.

That was my experience also. Stations on the east side of Mt. Wilson (KTTV, KCOP, KCET and KTBN) are not line-of-sight here. Before the transition, I could never get KCOP, and KTTV would often disappear for days at a time, and even when it did come in, it was often unwatchable because it was breaking up frequently. Now KTTV and KCOP, despite low power, are rock solid, even during unfavorable weather conditions. KCET and KTBN are still sometimes problematic because they are still on UHF.

The problem with UHF is that it behaves too much like a beam of light because of the shorter wavelengths. There is little doubt that VHF has much better propagation characteristics, because of its greater ability to diffract around obstacles.

Haven't tried yet for VHF Stations. Do see antennas with the capability in the area. Do understand it would be at ground level due to refraction.
VHF hi for this area will need to be equivalent to at least 1000KW to be solid,
Between 400KW to 800KW to be intermittent. Between 700KW and 1000KW television is consistently watchable, below 700KW, depends on the weather.

Interested in seeing if there is another location where VHF hi has been received, at what KW transmitting, and equivalent to 70 miles and a 500 foot hill. Then, what are they using, and what istheir reception power and quality.

Took a look at FCC Charts for VHF. There is hope for this area as the signals appear to be reaching Oxnard. Used to get KABC7, and 13.

TVfool is showing adjacent channel and co-channel interference. Is there anyone who has a good grasp of how to overcome these types of interference to the desired signal?

Haven't tried yet for VHF Stations. Do see antennas with the capability in the area. Do understand it would be at ground level due to refraction.
VHF hi for this area will need to be equivalent to at least 1000KW to be solid,
Between 400KW to 800KW to be intermittent. Between 700KW and 1000KW television is consistently watchable, below 700KW, depends on the weather.

Interested in seeing if there is another location where VHF hi has been received, at what KW transmitting, and equivalent to 70 miles and a 500 foot hill. Then, what are they using, and what istheir reception power and quality.

Interestingly, VHF seems to be much less affected by weather than UHF. Before the June 12 switch, a strong Santa Ana condition was often a disaster for UHF reception of some stations. Rain could also be a problem. Rain attenuation and transmission line losses are both much less than with UHF, especially the higher channels.

The downside for VHF, of course, is the need for a large, bulky antenna, and apparently the relatively poor VHF performance of indoor antennas at VHF frequencies, even though they have been rated for VHF. Also, I understand that electrical storms can be a big problem with VHF DTV in regions where they are commonplace.

Btw, dunno if you guys are aware...but for the record another sub-channel slot of KTLA I assume (besides 5.2 THIS) is available called "The Tube" on 5.5...my CM picked it up yesterday, no programming as of this writing though. :(

Btw, dunno if you guys are aware...but for the record another sub-channel slot of KTLA I assume (besides 5.2 THIS) is available called "The Tube" on 5.5...my CM picked it up yesterday, no programming as of this writing though. :(

Yeah on Thursday 5.2 was missing in action & I had to record Seahunt on 5.5. Now I see 5.2 is back but 5.5 is MIA. Go figure.

My Radio Shack amplified indoor/outdoor antenna has been losing KTTV too often, so I picked up - any other antenna to try instead. Got this GE 24770 at Target for $25 - and so far, it has succeeded in bringing in all the channels, all the time, when before I've had to fiddle to get 11, 13, 28, sometimes 7.

http://www.jascoproducts.com/products/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=895&idcategory=19

Right now I just have it sitting on a chair, if I mount it ten feet higher where I've had the Radio Shack, I hope for even better results. I had to let it warm up (?!) and then fiddled the positions and the VHF antennas a little to get it going, but haven't moved it since.

I'm located in West LA, shadowed from a direct view of Mt Wilson by the 35 story Wachovia building.

Added a trap for FM radio interference. Big Improvement in reliability for even weaker channels. Will see over time if the problem has gone away.

Still wondering about co-channel interference. How to overcome.

Added a trap for FM radio interference. Big Improvement in reliability for even weaker channels. Will see over time if the problem has gone away.

Still wondering about co-channel interference. How to overcome.


Either a more directional antenna or by intentionally placing the offending signal
in a null of your antenna or array are the usual remedies.

Yeah on Thursday 5.2 was missing in action & I had to record Seahunt on 5.5. Now I see 5.2 is back but 5.5 is MIA. Go figure.

Yes, it is back to normal. I certainly hope that KTLA does not add any more subchannels. The HD picture on 5.1 is relatively good and 5.2 is also quite good for 480i.

Btw, dunno if you guys are aware...but for the record another sub-channel slot of KTLA I assume (besides 5.2 THIS) is available called "The Tube" on 5.5...my CM picked it up yesterday, no programming as of this writing though. :(
The Tube was a sub channel way back in the day that aired music video ala the halcyon days of MTV and it was located at 5.5. The Tube went bankrupt 2 years ago and was taken off the air.

If you watch the ad breaks for This TV now their ads are done in house by KTLA instead of the national ads for Jupiter Jack and other dubious gadgets that usually aired. KTLA has been using their relationship with Tribune to air ads for the LA Times and plugging their CW programming. My guess was the equipment that was once used to insert local ads on The Tube was finally dusted off and put to use on This TV. Even the channel bug is identified as "This TV Los Angeles".

You just happened to catch the transition before they finished configuring the equipment.

... Even the channel bug is identified as "This TV Los Angeles". ...

Just a minor note;

Actually KTLA seems to have abbreviated the new station ID bug to simply read;

"this
LOS ANGELES"

Without the "TV" in the logo.

Our KCWX's full TOH ID with the "This TV" bug http://www.qsl.net/wa5iyx/images/kcwx-dt-5.2zb.jpg - still trying to be a multi-DMA station :) At least they got their CDT-CST EPG in sync on Sunday - our PBS (KLRN-9) didn't get theirs right until Monday.

KTBN 45 on the air. Channel 17 (Construction Permit) or 23 still dark.

KIMG-LP 23 is being sold to the Ulloa family, owners of KJLA/KXLA/KVMD/KSMV-LD.

- Trip

Thanks TRIP for the info. Latest saw from the FCC website is that KIMG-LP can be dark to March, 2010. Wonder in what direction these small LP stations serving local communities are going. Due to the small amounts of viewers don't see how they can be locally profitable. Maybe, as a combined network, then they can be feasible as a profit center.

KFLA-LD (don't you love posts that start with that?) has added two more subchannels, for real. And they are once again asserting their supremacy as the dingbats of the market.

Current lineup appears to be

8-1 KFLA-LD - America One

8-2 CSTV - Corner Store TV

8-3 Program - That's what it says, but the onscreen bug says "Biz Television." Audio is out of phase and full of pops and glitches. Just like old times!

8-4 AVIVATV - That's what it says, but it's actually another stream of Corner Store TV, except it also has out-of-phase audio (albeit not all mangled up like 8-3).

Out of phase audio indicates an engineering staff that (1) is deaf and (2) can't handle basic wiring (red to red and white to white).

Here, by the way, is their website (http://www.kfla.tv/). The subchannels are numbered 1, 2, 3, 4 and not 1, 2, 4, 5 as indicated on the site. Interesting to see that White Springs TV has, in fact, met its demise, that KFLA's programming grid indicates some HD shows (like that's gonna happen), and that they're running programma religioso on all three of their two new subchannels.

Meanwhile KSMV-LD (31-1), like Michael Jackson, is still dead, at least here in OC, where I was getting a flawless signal before they vacated physical 33. How am I ever going to learn Italian like this?

And KLAU-LP (45 analog) has been off and on for the last couple days. Currently they're on, with low audio containing a nice 60-cycle hum.

(PS - Anybody know the proper term for the Station ID field that comes up along with the virtual channel number? Is that considered part of the PSID? Or is it something else?)

... (PS - Anybody know the proper term for the Station ID field that comes up along with the virtual channel number? Is that considered part of the PSID? Or is it something else?)

From what I understand, it is simply called the sub-channel "Short Name." And yes it is a part of the PSIP. Specifically it is up to a 7 character field transmitted in the "Virtual Channel Table" (VCT) that cycles completely every 2.5 seconds in the PSIP data stream.

Or for the geeks:

Formally from "ATSC A/65C" document--"Program and System Information Protocol"

"short_name" — The name of the virtual channel, represented as a sequence of one to seven 16-bit
code values interpreted in accordance with the UTF-16 representation of Unicode character
data. If the length of the name requires fewer than seven 16-bit code values, this field shall
be padded out to seven 16-bit code values using the Unicode NUL character (0x0000).
Unicode character data shall conform to The Unicode Standard, Version 3.0. The UTF-
16 representation of Unicode character data is in accordance with that defined by, which
is identical to that defined by ISO/IEC 10646-1:2000 Annex C.

Meanwhile KSMV-LD (31-1), like Michael Jackson, is still dead, at least here in OC, where I was getting a flawless signal before they vacated physical 33. How am I ever going to learn Italian like this?

KSMV-LD has filed an STA to light up channel 23 immediately. That has yet to be approved and thus KSMV-LD is awaiting FCC action.

(PS - Anybody know the proper term for the Station ID field that comes up along with the virtual channel number? Is that considered part of the PSID? Or is it something else?)

As HoTatII says, its name is "short_name" but in all honesty, nobody's going to have the slightest clue what you're talking about if you say that. I've taken to calling it the "PSIP Callsign" since that's a pretty accurate description of what it is. It's the name I use on RabbitEars.

- Trip

KIMG-LP 23 is being sold to the Ulloa family, owners of KJLA/KXLA/KVMD/KSMV-LD.

- Trip

Fantastic. Even more redundant channels which means up to 4 times as many informercials as before. Yay! This is exactly what was missing in the Los Angeles market. The Ulloa's will certainly come up with dynamic and fresh content to broadcast. :rolleyes:

KIMG doesn't cover Los Angeles, does it? I would assume they are planning to flash-cut KIMG-LP and simulcast KSMV-LD which in turn simulcasts KVMD, thus putting three identical stations on channel 23. It would effectively give them almost full market Los Angeles coverage.

- Trip

KIMG-LP 23, construction permit going to 23. Was like MTV but oldies. Went bankrupt. Been dark for a while. Now being purchased.

KTBN- Trinity Broadcast Network. Currently broadcasting.

These stations serve a small niche area: Ojai, Lake Casitas, Ventura Avenue area, maybe Port Hueneme. Small amount of transmitter power.

Look them up on tvfool. A small amount of viewers is received by these current analog stations. Interested in the potential economies with a potential digital switchover in 2012. Must be expensive. What are the economies of scale: the cost of switching over versus the potential benefits to the owner.

KIMG-LP 23, construction permit going to 23. Was like MTV but oldies. Went bankrupt. Been dark for a while. Now being purchased.

KTBN- Trinity Broadcast Network. Currently broadcasting.

These stations serve a small niche area: Ojai, Lake Casitas, Ventura Avenue area, maybe Port Hueneme. Small amount of transmitter power.

Look them up on tvfool. A small amount of viewers is received by these current analog stations. Interested in the potential economies with a potential digital switchover in 2012. Must be expensive. What are the economies of scale: the cost of switching over versus the potential benefits to the owner.

Regarding your mention of KTBN, is that the (frequently off-air) LP analog translator on RF channel 45?

Since Trip no longer list it in rabbitears.info, even under off-air status, I assumed it was no more, particularly in light of the now current full power 1000KW ERP for their main DTV signal on 40-1 (RF ch. 33) from Mt. Wilson which perhaps now sufficiently covers the area of the former analog translator.

I don't list analog stations.

- Trip

I don't list analog stations.

- Trip

Oh ... :o

Regarding your mention of KTBN, is that the (frequently off-air) LP analog translator on RF channel 45?

KTBN is full power digital 40-1 (physical channel 33) - The Trinity Broadcasting Network. He must be getting them from an analog translator on 45. I presume it's K45DU Ventura.

You may be thinking of KLAU-LP Redlands (broadcasting from Mt. Wilson), who is .... lessee now ........ ON the air right now.

He's thinking of K45DU in Ventura.

EDIT: I just noticed that you mentioned K45DU in your message, and you were responding to HoTatII, not VenturaTVViewer. I need to pay more attention. Whoops!

- Trip

Since it is fully licensed, they can't just shut if off. This area does receive KTBN 40 from Los Angeles. This one would be preferred these days as it would include all the sub-channels: Church Channel, Smile of a Child, etc.

KTBN 45 analog continues broadcasting the same feed as 40.1, the main channel.

KCOP/13's signal is down considerably for me right now. No change for the other upper VHF stations. I think this is about how weak it was when it first moved to 13, so it's probably on the Aux at the moment. I'm getting readings of 85-86 on the Dish DTVPal DVR and 26-28 on the OnAir-GT, with the YA1713 (with a pre-amp).

KCOP/13's signal is down considerably for me right now. No change for the other upper VHF stations. I think this is about how weak it was when it first moved to 13, so it's probably on the Aux at the moment. I'm getting readings of 85-86 on the Dish DTVPal DVR and 26-28 on the OnAir-GT, with the YA1713 (with a pre-amp).


It is down here a bit also. Normally, it has been running about 65%, but now it is down to 50% on the Samsung STB, also using the YA-1713 but no preamp. It is still very steady, however. I may check it later on the Pioneer also.

I'm been having issues with KCOP starting about a week or so ago. It had always been weak after the cut over, but then took a dip below consistent reception. I've been able to tweak my antenna to get it back, but It'll be nice to see them fix it right on their end.

KCOP is 68-82% from my end (CM-7000) using an indoor Terk/Motorola booster combo (5ft from ground)...no pixelation whatsoever though.:)

I'm been having issues with KCOP starting about a week or so ago. It had always been weak after the cut over, but then took a dip below consistent reception. I've been able to tweak my antenna to get it back, but It'll be nice to see them fix it right on their end.


My experience was the exact opposite. Before the transition, I never could get KCOP, and often wondered whether they even had a DTV transmitter at all. After the transition KCOP "suddenly appeared" and now comes in 100% of the time with a very good, solid signal, even though it is not as strong as some other stations.

I agree, however that KCOP and KTTV both should increase their power, especially since those using indoor antennas often seem to be having reception problems. Apparently, indoor antennas seem to perform rather poorly at VHF frequencies, even though they are rated for VHF.

I agree, however that KCOP and KTTV both should increase their power, especially since those using indoor antennas often seem to be having reception problems. Apparently, indoor antennas seem to perform rather poorly at VHF frequencies, even though they are rated for VHF.

Increasing the power may help in situations where the signal power is too low, but for people with already strong enough signal but still can't receive, it won't help. This is because multipath signals are affecting their reception. Increased transmitter power won't help.

According to this article, KMEX and KFTR will be HD in December, at least on cable. My understanding is that the Univision/Telefutura stations will carry the World Cup. Hopefully, OTA will be converted to HD.

http://gadgetress.freedomblogging.com/2009/11/12/time-warner-adding-21-hd-channels-in-december/25981/

I think ION was the last local OTA channel to go HD, but what about before that, KVEA?

HD seems to have taken a backseat to channel cramming.

...HD seems to have taken a backseat to channel cramming.


Sad, but true! Also KDOC gave up its HD-capable 1080i channel on 56.1 for a very poor quality SD. Still, I hope this will be offset with some new moves to HD elsewhere. As of the last time I checked, KVCR had still not fixed their problem on 24.1. While the format is 720p, it cannot display widescreen material, so all 16:9 material is shown letterboxed, thus defeating the purpose of the higher resolution.

Sad, but true! Also KDOC gave up its HD-capable 1080i channel on 56.1 for a very poor quality SD. Still, I hope this will be offset with some new moves to HD elsewhere. As of the last time I checked, KVCR had still not fixed their problem on 24.1. While the format is 720p, it cannot display widescreen material, so all 16:9 material is shown letterboxed, thus defeating the purpose of the higher resolution.

True enough on one hand, though I have found that when viewing SD material on HD flat panel TVs which must upscale 480i SD input signals to the native HD display resolution of the set, the picture quality generally looks better when the TV stations' professional up-conversion equipment handles it rather than relying on the consumer grade internal scalers of the televisions to perform it.

True enough on one hand, though I have found that when viewing SD material on HD flat panel TVs which must upscale 480i SD input signals to the native HD display resolution of the set, the picture quality generally looks better when the TV stations' professional up-conversion equipment handles it rather than relying on the consumer grade internal scalers of the televisions to perform it.

First of all, I am referring to 16:9 material that is in fact shown on an HD raster but with a reduced size, so scaling may not even be a factor at all in many cases here. Effective resolution is sacrificed simply because there are fewer pixels within the smaller picture.

With regard to scalers in flat panel TV's, a lot depends on the make and model of the set. Gary Merson at HDGuru.com periodically does industry surveys and publishes the results. Generally, Pioneer and Sony sets have the best scalers, most other brands less so. I know that on my Pioneer Elite KURO set, even some good SD broadcasts can look spectacular at times.

First of all, I am referring to 16:9 material that is in fact shown on an HD raster but with a reduced size, so scaling may not even be a factor at all in many cases here. Effective resolution is sacrificed simply because there are fewer pixels within the smaller picture....

Oh I understood this. But I in turn was referring to up-converting native 4:3 SD material. Therefore perhaps I should have phrased my first statement as;

"True enough on one hand, though I have found that when viewing *4:3* SD material on HD flat panel TVs ... "

Sorry for not being clear earlier. :)

With regard to scalers in flat panel TV's, a lot depends on the make and model of the set. Gary Merson at HDGuru.com periodically does industry surveys and publishes the results. Generally, Pioneer and Sony sets have the best scalers, most other brands less so. I know that on my Pioneer Elite KURO set, even some good SD broadcasts can look spectacular at times.

Again I realize this, but I cannot not imagine Merson or any other HD-guru aficionado would claim that consumer scalers could ever match to quality of the 4-5 figure price tag studio grade ones. Therefore to eliminate such substandard variabilities with internal TV scaler performance, I find it best for HD flat panel TVs anyhow (or "fixed pixel displays") when the station handles the scaling process by broadcasting 4:3 SD material in up-converted HD format.

This is one of the reasons why I miss KDOC's HD format nowadays as their former 1080i broadcasts of what amounted to almost a full broadcast day of 4:3 SD programming of classic TV shows up-converted with their studio quality scalers, to be superior to my TV sets' internal one as well as it should be with any others.

Anyone else not hearing the announcers during either football game today on channel 2 KCBS? I can hear the commercials and background sounds during both games but no announcers.

Anyone else not hearing the announcers during either football game today on channel 2 KCBS? I can hear the commercials and background sounds during both games but no announcers.

Never mind. I figured it out. It was my speakers.

Never mind. I figured it out. It was my speakers.How did you manage to do that? I'd love to have muted annoying announcers.

How did you manage to do that? I'd love to have muted annoying announcers.

I'm running Logitech surround speakers on my PC and there's a button on the control panel called "Matrix". It was turned on. When I turned it off the sound came back.

What it appeared to be doing is muting all speaker output except for right and left front and the announcers were coming from the center front speaker.

How did you manage to do that? I'd love to have muted annoying announcers.

Sometimes just switching to the SAP channel there will be nothing but ambient stadium sound as long as there isn't a Spanish commentating crew covering the game. It happens more often on CBS than on FOX.

I'm running Logitech surround speakers on my PC and there's a button on the control panel called "Matrix". It was turned on. When I turned it off the sound came back.

What it appeared to be doing is muting all speaker output except for right and left front and the announcers were coming from the center front speaker.Ah. I wonder if I can do that too with my 2.1 Logitech speakers (analog) and SB Audigy 2ZS sound card.

My Tivo started showing 5-5 TheTube and I was sooo happy! I thought it was making a comeback but there is nothing on there. I wonder why it showed up. :/

My Tivo started showing 5-5 TheTube and I was sooo happy! I thought it was making a comeback but there is nothing on there. I wonder why it showed up. :/

The reason it showed up was discussed last week in post #6387

The balun of the C4 makes the coax shield part of the VHF reception design.

You did the correct thing to fix the problem.

Not sure about KTBN... would almost have to be unique to their operation. Perform a "double rescan" and see if that brings it back.
After making the change I refered to in my post a month or so ago, KABC has been plenty strong. (now 6 of 6 in Vista Media Center) However, even with that signal strength, there is an occasional "pixelization/dropout" perhaps once an hour or so. I have two HTPCs that I verified had essentially the same dropout at the same time. So, given the two are pretty much different HTPCs (Intel vs. AMD, different video cards, etc.) I'm thinking there is some sort of multipath or interference that only crops up every hour or so. Since I'm using a Clearstream4 and as was pointed out, that uses the coax shield as part of the VHF antenna, would it make sense to "loop" the cable, perhaps pointing the loop to Mt. Wilson?

So bottom line is that LA's CH 7,9,11,13 were all pretty stupid to give up their cushy UHF channels to return to weaker spots on VHF . . . I have no idea why they think its such a great idea to use VHF-HI RF channels 7 thru 13.

AntennaPoint.com says that all the Los Angeles-area DTV broadcasts are UHF, but apparently this information is this out-of-date? The "DTV Channels" spreadsheet I downloaded here, dated 11/05/2009, notes that 7, 9, 11, and 13's "pre-DTV" channels are all numerically higher than '13' (e.g., 53, 45, 65, 66, respectively), but their "RF CH" (not its "virtual channel") are shown as "7, 9, 11, and 13." So, I gather that the "RF CH" column represents these channels' post-06/2009 "switch-over" channel assignments, back to VHF? So, if it's true that channels 7, 9, 11, and 13 are "high VHF," what antenna do I get? I live near the beach, south of LAX, with a fairly clear line of sight, directly to Mount Wilson, which is about 18 miles away.

1. I was planning to get this directional Antennas Direct 42XG UHF (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=AD-42XG&d=Antennas-Direct-42XG-UHF-HDTV-Antenna-(42XG)&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=853748001422) Yagi/reflector-style (30-degree beam-width) antenna, since all the local broadcasters are located at a single point (Mt. Wilson) in Los Angeles. But it only covers UHF channels "14-69."

2. So, do I get two antennas? A VHF and an UHF? But, if you use a combiner, don't you get degradaion due to multipath interference?

3. I was also considering this super-big omni, the Antennas Direct DB8 (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=AD-DB8&d=Antennas-Direct-DB8-UHF-HDTV-TV-Antenna-(DB8)&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=853748001088) dipole/reflector (or its half-sized brother, the DB4 (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=AD-DB4&d=Antennas-Direct-DB4-UHF-HDTV-Antenna-(DB4)&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=853748001040)). But since all the transmitters in L.A. are in one location, would this be a lesser choice than the 42XG Yagi-style model above?

Kinda new to all this OTA stuff (obviously). Thanks for any replies!

Sezmi Tells L.A. Story
By Todd Spangler -- Multichannel News, 11/16/2009

Startup Sezmi this week will kick off a customer pilot in Los Angeles, delivering live feeds of 23 cable networks, 50 local TV channels, video-on-demand and Web video through its DVR set-tops using a combination of wireless broadcast spectrum and Internet delivery.

"We have L.A. fully operational," Sezmi co-founder and president Phil Wiser said.

Sezmi -- which is planning to launch in other markets in 2010, after previously hoping to debut the service a year ago -- is hoping to lure subscribers of cable and satellite TV services by touting its personalization features and lower subscription costs.

"We're the first company to integrate Internet content with this on-demand offering and premium cable programming," Wiser said. "It's the experience -- the integration of al this content, that we're delivering for a significantly lower price."

Sezmi's guideThe cable networks participating in Sezmi's L.A. launch are: TBS, TNT, USA Network, Bravo, CNN, Headline News, Discovery Channel, Comedy Central, Planet Green, MSNBC, VH1, Cartoon Network, Oxygen, CNBC, MTV, Nickelodeon, TLC, Science Channel, Syfy, Animal Planet, truTV, Boomerang and TCM.

Sezmi will deliver the linear TV feed of each of the cable networks, and will also provide related VOD content.

In addition to the L.A. pilot launch, the company is announcing that it has raised $25 million more funding, bringing its total raised to about $75.5 million. Investors in the latest round of financing include previous investors Morgenthaler Ventures, Omni Capital, TD Fund, Index Ventures and Legend Ventures, plus a new "strategic" investor, which Sezmi did not identify.

For the three-month test in L.A., Sezmi will select participants from those who apply and provide them a free subscription to the television service, including the cable channels. Sezmi is targeting about 1,000 households for the trial.

The commercial service will be available in two packages: Sezmi Select, $4.99 per month for the broadcast-only service plus access to some VOD and Web video content; and Sezmi Supreme, $24.99 per month, which includes the full cable subscriptions.

When testers roll off the pilot, Sezmi will offer them a 50% discount on the DVR set-top and custom antenna hardware, which carries a list price of $299, if they wish to continue receiving the service. The set-top is manufactured by Taiwan's Tatung.

Sezmi's core channel lineup comprises free, over-the-air TV and multicast networks. In L.A., this includes local broadcasts from ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, The CW, PBS, Univision, Telemundo, Universal Sports, AccuWeather, Qubo, ION, Telefutura, LATV, MTV Tres and KCAL.

In addition, Sezmi will offer more than 6,000 movies and TV shows for rent or purchase, a library that will grow to 15,000 titles in 2010, Wiser said.

Studios supplying content include 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment, Lionsgate, Paramount Pictures, Sony Pictures Home Entertainment, Universal Studios and Warner Brothers, as well as independent studios. Sezmi also partnered with Sonic Solutions to provide access to a broad selection of additional content powered by Sonic's Roxio CinemaNow movie service.

Movies are typically available for $3.99 rental; TV episodes can be purchased for $1.99, "in line with the market," Wiser said.

Sezmi delivers the cable programming and VOD using a combination of Internet bandwidth and multicast spectrum leased from TV broadcasters.

Sezmi is using spectrum from four L.A.-area TV stations: KOCE (a PBS member station in Huntington Beach, Calif.), KRCA (a Spanish-language station owned by Liberman Broadcasting), KAZA (owned by Pappas Telecasting and affiliated with Azteca America) and KDOC (an unaffiliated station owned by Ellis Communications).

Ultimately, Sezmi's business model is to sell the service through wireline and wireless Internet service provider partners, which will act as the customer point of contact. Wiser said the company has agreements in place with telco partners but he declined to identify them, saying those will be announced in early 2010.

"The purpose of the pilot is to really refine our training, and scale up our understanding of communicating with the consumer," Wiser said.

The startup emphasizes its multiuser features and personalization capabilities, in contrast to cable or satellite TV services. The Sezmi (pronounced "SAYS-me") set-top can automatically record, organize and recommend shows for each family member based on individual preferences.

Pressing the "mi" button on the Sezmi remote launches a user into a custom view of his or her own favorite content, along with recommendations based on viewing patterns. Sezmi also integrates a variety of Internet content including YouTube and video podcasts.

Sezmi, founded in June 2006 under the code-name Building B, last fall conducted a technical test in Seattle that simulated access by 1 million subscribers. "We wanted to understand how the service would perform," Wiser said.

The company currently counts more than 100 employees, including outside contractors, according to Wiser. About a year ago, Sezmi laid off 20 of its 100 employees before it announced a $33 million round of funding.

http://www.multichannel.com/article/389094-Sezmi_Tells_L_A_Story.php

AntennaPoint.com says that all the Los Angeles-area DTV broadcasts are UHF, but apparently this information is this out-of-date? The "DTV Channels" spreadsheet I downloaded here, dated 11/05/2009, notes that 7, 9, 11, and 13's "pre-DTV" channels are all numerically higher than '13' (e.g., 53, 45, 65, 66, respectively), but their "RF CH" (not its "virtual channel") are shown as "7, 9, 11, and 13." So, I gather that the "RF CH" column represents these channels' post-06/2009 "switch-over" channel assignments, back to VHF? So, if it's true that channels 7, 9, 11, and 13 are "high VHF," what antenna do I get? I live near the beach, south of LAX, with a fairly clear line of sight, directly to Mount Wilson, which is about 18 miles away.

1. I was planning to get this directional Antennas Direct 42XG UHF (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=AD-42XG&d=Antennas-Direct-42XG-UHF-HDTV-Antenna-(42XG)&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=853748001422) Yagi/reflector-style (30-degree beam-width) antenna, since all the local broadcasters are located at a single point (Mt. Wilson) in Los Angeles. But it only covers UHF channels "14-69."

2. So, do I get two antennas? A VHF and an UHF? But, if you use a combiner, don't you get degradaion due to multipath interference?

3. I was also considering this super-big omni, the Antennas Direct DB8 (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=AD-DB8&d=Antennas-Direct-DB8-UHF-HDTV-TV-Antenna-(DB8)&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=853748001088) dipole/reflector (or its half-sized brother, the DB4 (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=AD-DB4&d=Antennas-Direct-DB4-UHF-HDTV-Antenna-(DB4)&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=853748001040)). But since all the transmitters in L.A. are in one location, would this be a lesser choice than the 42XG Yagi-style model above?

Kinda new to all this OTA stuff (obviously). Thanks for any replies!

Antennapoint doesn't seam to be able to figure out that channels 13 and below are VHF, not UHF. Ignore that column and focus on the column labeled "Digital". 14 and up are UHF.

1.) The 42XG is a UHF antenna. You need either a combo (high-VHF plus UHF) or two separate antennas.

2.) If you get separate antennas, you must use the proper combining device, a VHF/UHF diplexer (commonly referred to as a UVSJ), so that separate UHF and VHF antennas can be properly combined with minimal loss.

3.) The DB8 is NOT an omni and anyone advertising it as such is blowing smoke. Same for the DB4. Both are quite directional (the DB8 very much more so) but do have minor reception lobes off the rear and at certain other angles that may allow reception in directions other that the primary front lobe.

Drop by a local Radio Shack and pick up an HBU22. It should be fine for the location you described. If it doesn't work, it's easy to return.

So, I gather that the "RF CH" column represents these channels' post-06/2009 "switch-over" channel assignments, back to VHF? So, if it's true that channels 7, 9, 11, and 13 are "high VHF," what antenna do I get? I live near the beach, south of LAX, with a fairly clear line of sight, directly to Mount Wilson, which is about 18 miles away.

Yes, the RF channel # is the real channel # that you need to look at when considering antennas. Yes, upper VHF is required here, in addition to UHF.

The HBU22 should be sufficient in your case. I installed one for a friend in South Orange County (51 miles, near LOS) and it works great. Another antenna to consider is the Winegard 7694.

The above won't be good for FM, but aren't nearly as wide as the full range combos which go down to 2 (which is no longer needed in LA). If you want FM as well, you can consider a full range (2-51 or 6-51) combo antenna.

Though I have yet to see one or confirm it, the new CM Advantage line supposedly is effective for FM as well as 7-51, w/o being nearly as wide as a 2-51/69 combo:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=CM-2018&d=Channel-Master-CM-2018-Digital-Advantage-TV-Antenna-%28CM2018%29&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=020572030168

Does anyone have one of these?

Sezmi Tells L.A. Story

Thank you for the report.

I am applying for the pilot, but I'm guessing I will be declined, especially if they look at my address on Antennaweb. My signals are much better than what that site predicts.

It's too bad there wasn't an essay section on the application. :D

Read article above on Sezmi. Wondering in the next ten to twenty years if free (really free) over the air now digital television will still be around with paid over the air services like Sezmi entering the market.

Very, Very Interested in what other people's opinions would be of this.

Well, there's alway free to air satellite! TBN. Glorystar.

Though I have yet to see one or confirm it, the new CM Advantage line supposedly is effective for FM as well as 7-51, w/o being nearly as wide as a 2-51/69 combo:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=CM-2018&d=Channel-Master-CM-2018-Digital-Advantage-TV-Antenna-%28CM2018%29&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=020572030168

Does anyone have one of these?

I looked at the CM2018's spec sheet at CM and they make no mention of FM performance.

FWIW, I've never seen a "6 to 51" or a "6 to anything" antenna. Everything that includes 6 that I've seen is spec'd to go to channel 2. As most know, the FM broadcast band is immediately adjacent to VHF channel 6 and would occupy approximately the next 3 1/2 TV channels above 6 had that spectrum not been carved out early on for radio.

I can look on my SA screen and see FM signals coming off my UHF antenna. However, they're a whole lot taller on the display (more power) if I have an antenna that is resonant in the FM band since it's far more efficient. An antenna that is resonant on the high VHF band (174-216 MHz) is about 1/2 the size needed for efficient FM Radio reception. Consequently, it will do fair on FM but much better than a UHF antenna and much more poorly than would an FM band antenna.

In my opinion, Sezmi is promising more than it can deliver. A review of Sezmi at PCWorld states that:

"It does so via a 1TB DVR/set-top box that provides access to three types of TV sources: broadcast stations, cable channels, and Internet content. (It snags the first two kinds (sic) over the air, via a powerful antenna in a box that looks like a loudspeaker: Sezmi simply grabs local broadcast channels as is, and the company is leasing spectrum from local broadcasters to transmit cable channels – including both standard-def and HD.)"

First of all, there are no powerful antenna in a box that can receive all LA stations. Just read the recent posts about people having problems receiving OTA signals. And any spectrum they can lease certainly won't be for HD but SD. I don't think there is enough OTA spectrum left in LA to broadcast many of the cable stations listed especially in HD. I'll believe it when I see it.

Thank you for the report.

I am applying for the pilot, but I'm guessing I will be declined, especially if they look at my address on Antennaweb. My signals are much better than what that site predicts.

It's too bad there wasn't an essay section on the application. :DI got an e-mail invitation today via Best Buy (have frequent buyer card) to join the Sezmi pilot. Probably won't though. /Dan

Not going to do it. More interested in getting more OTA stations down the road. i.e. KEYT/My RTN and going for San Diego Stations to watch the Chargers.

First of all, there are no powerful antenna in a box that can receive all LA stations. Just read the recent posts about people having problems receiving OTA signals. ...

I agree with this. I mean what exactly is this "powerful antenna in a box?" outside of maybe advertisement gimmickry that can outperform even rooftop aerials and get beyond all the countless reception problems people have reported throughout this market with indoor antennas?

Some hereto secret unprecedented breakthrough in antenna technology?

Yeah right... :rolleyes:

...And any spectrum they can lease certainly won't be for HD but SD. I don't think there is enough OTA spectrum left in LA to broadcast many of the cable stations listed especially in HD. I'll believe it when I see it.

+1 again here as well. Even with MPEG-4 AVC compression which Sezmi will undoubtably use, I simply can't see there being anywhere near sufficient borrowed bandwidth from only four OTA DTV stations to support all those many cable channels they list in SD much less room for any HD ones (even if slightly down-rezzed to "HD-lite") short of compressing the living hell out of them.

First of all, there are no powerful antenna in a box that can receive all LA stations.

Upper VHF in a box is hard enough. What are they going to do in Low-VHF markets? Hopefully, there is an F connector to be found somewhere on the box, for an optional external antenna.

The broadcast only service is listed at $5/mo. I suppose it's for the convenience of the DVR, etc., but I get that with the DTV Pal DVR.

However, I'm still interested in the service, but would be more interested if they had the likes of ESPN. I am certainly interested in trying it out.

Very interested in what Sezmi is using for it's system. Smart box which communicates back to the antenna to optimize the available signal. If anyone can find out what the antenna looks like, how it works, can the theory be utilized for OTA. Especially the antenna. What is it's design. How many db. Over what direction. Range, etc.

Wondering if there are any smart tv antenna systems out there like plus 20 db at a minimum. Think plus 30 db would probably bring in San Diego, also.
What's the strongest system on the market at this point in time for bringing in weak signals?

I suspect that this "smart antenna in a box" with 20 dB gain is nothing more than a small antenna with little or no gain, and a 20 dB preamplifier. If the preamplifier's noise figure is no better than that of the one in your TV receiver, it will be of no help, unlerss there is a long distance between the antenna and set and hence significant line losses.

...
What's the strongest system on the market at this point in time for bringing in weak signals?

A properly selected and installed outdoor antenna system!

Amplifier gain is worthless if the antenna cannot capture adequate signal from the air in the first place. That means putting the antenna where there is signal to be received.

A properly selected and installed outdoor antenna system!

Amplifier gain is worthless if the antenna cannot capture adequate signal from the air in the first place. That means putting the antenna where there is signal to be received.

I definitely agree that a properly selected and installed outdoor antenna system is best. A preamplifier can be useful when there are significant losses incurred after the signal is captured by the antenna, i.e., if there is significant attenuation due to a long transmission line, or if splitters are used. But the preamplifier will only help if it is installed near the antenna, ahead of the losses.