There's another angle: overloading the amplifier from too many strong DTV signals or harmonics from a nearby FM station. Anybody in the LA metro with a clear shot at Mt. Wilson should NOT need an amplified antenna of any sort, especially if said antenna is mounted outside. Barring evidence of terrain blockage in this case, I dare say the monoprice antenna is working despite itself.

There's another angle: overloading the amplifier from too many strong DTV signals or harmonics from a nearby FM station. Anybody in the LA metro with a clear shot at Mt. Wilson should NOT need an amplified antenna of any sort, especially if said antenna is mounted outside. Barring evidence of terrain blockage in this case, I dare say the monoprice antenna is working despite itself.I assume one can look for this station on http://www.antennasearch.com/ ?

From Van Nuys I'm now able to get KFLA for the first time. Coming in well, too. Also 10.5 KIIO, didn't used to get that. KOCE is still hit or miss. I have yet to check if the antenna is OK. We'll see.

KOCE-DT is broadcasting on channels 50.1 (RF48) and 31.4 (RF23).
KOCE on RF48 works great in my area - no picture nor sound breakups.

btw, I can receive KFLA on RF8 in my area with no picture/sound distortions, even when my TV is just using an indoor rabbit ears antenna.

there's now spanish programming on KVEA 52.2 - channel is now called "Exitos"

I assume one can look for this station on http://www.antennasearch.com/ ?

Use FMFool to see if there are very strong FMs near you. Use TVFool for TV broadcast. Antennasearch looks useful for cell phone and other towers.

I live in Placentia CA 92870 (by Anaheim) and am using the following HDTV antenna:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10901&cs_id=1090102&p_id=4730&seq=1&format=3#specification

Which also includes a small line amplifier. It is a great antenna (read all the reviews). Mounted outside on a second story eve, pointed to Mount Wison. I get pretty much everything except can't get a good signal for Channel 7 KABC even tohugh I have a clear path.

I see alot of talk about channel 7 for my Orange County / Los Angeles Neighors experiencing difficulty with this signal as well.

Not sure what my options are for this particular channel, or if I fully understand the issue. I previosuly tried repointing my antenna a bit with no luck.

Any ideas on a solution.

Unfortunately I don't have a solution, but I live near you (Fullerton 92833, right near the 5/91 interchange). This (http://www.amazon.com/Channel-DIGITAL-ADVANTAGE-Outdoor-Antenna/dp/B0018BZJNS) is the antenna I have on my apartment balcony (facing Mt Wilson with a clear line of sight). I get KABC just fine with no amp. In fact someone suggested I split my incoming signal to weaken it a bit due to what was said above (the signal overloading my Tivo's sensitive receiver chip, resulting in bad reception). Doing that, I got slightly better numbers on my Tivo's signal meter, but didn't notice any spectacular difference other than that (but I wasn't really having a big issue in the first place -- just a problem with KDOC, which wasn't related to reception anyway).

There is an occasional glitch on KABC, but frankly that seems to happen on all the channels I receive. Might be due to the Fullerton Airport which is located between me and Mt Wilson...

The CM 2016 is a decent antenna. It does have more UHF gain than VHF, which kinda goes to waste. The ANT751 is more balanced I -think-.

The good news is we still get KFLA. The bad news is there's no tivo programming info yet.

We watch zero live TV, so hopefully tivo(tribune) will realize the remapped stations soon.

KFLA - Channel 8, Los Angeles will change over to it's new higher power channel 8 transmitter and antenna Saturday afternoon (12/31). Viewers must do a new scan of their TVs to be able to continue to receive KFLA's programs.

Those wanting instructions to scan their TVs will find them at our website - kfla.tv.
<snipped>

We sincerely thank everyone for their support.

Roy Mayhugh
KFLA, Channel 8, Los Angeles

PS being a new "poster" to this forum I was not allowed to post the links to our website - sorry for the inconvenience.

Welcome to LA OTA! Glad to have you aboard, Roy. Thanks for sharing the information. Love retro tv, so I'm a KFLA fan.

Just a reminder folks;

As expected, Universal Sports formally on KNBC's sub-channel 4-4 is no longer available free OTA as of 1-1-12, and is now a pay television only channel.

Just a reminder folks;

As expected, Universal Sports formally on KNBC's sub-channel 4-4 is no longer available free OTA as of 1-1-12, and is now a pay television only channel.So, what's replacing on 4-4? Nothing?

So, what's replacing on 4-4? Nothing?

Nope, nothing it seems for now at least;

My OTA channel list now just skips from 4-2 (California Nonstop) over to 5-1 (KTLA's main sub-channel).

Have Universal Sports on DIRECTV ch. 625 though.

Nope, nothing it seems for now at least;

My OTA channel list now just skips from 4-2 (California Nonstop) over to 5-1 (KTLA's main sub-channel).

Have Universal Sports on DIRECTV ch. 625 though.Ah thanks. I will tell my tuners to delete 4.4 then. :)

Directv has Universal Sports but it looks like nobody else does. Wonder if the drop in viewership is similar to KCET's drop when the later left PBS.

Anyway, it looks like KSCI joins KVMD 31.x, KXLA 44.x, and KJLA 57.x (if you count 23.4) in the 10 subchannels club. There are currently no Vietnamese channels on KSCI, so why not? I will guess one is coming.

KFLA - Channel 8, Los Angeles will change over to it's new higher power channel 8 transmitter and antenna Saturday afternoon (12/31). Viewers must do a new scan of their TVs to be able to continue to receive KFLA's programs.

Those wanting instructions to scan their TVs will find them at our website - kfla.tv.


Roy Mayhugh
KFLA, Channel 8, Los Angeles

PS being a new "poster" to this forum I was not allowed to post the links to our website - sorry for the inconvenience.

Does the guide info come via KFLA automatically. TiVo is not recording for me because of lack of guide data. I wanted to confirm that data is being delivered by KFLA before I email Tivo to update their software. Thanks.

Same here. I can tune KFLA in on the AM21 runner hooked up to my DirecTV TiVo receiver (THR22), but cannot record due to the lack of guide info. I tried to set up a manual recording but it does not record. When I check the recording history, I get a message that says the channel was removed, but it is in my channel list. I emailed TiVo a couple of days ago and received a message someone would get back to me in 3-5 days. Anyone have any ideas what could be the problem?

Same here. I can tune KFLA in on the AM21 runner hooked up to my DirecTV TiVo receiver (THR22), but cannot record due to the lack of guide info. I tried to set up a manual recording but it does not record. When I check the recording history, I get a message that says the channel was removed, but it is in my channel list. I emailed TiVo a couple of days ago and received a message someone would get back to me in 3-5 days. Anyone have any ideas what could be the problem?

It's a question for TiVo community, definitely not in this thread. As I understand you see in a guide the channel on your THR22 ? Then manual setting - start time and duration should do that. Regardless guide info; all info to tune is there - freq,TSID, PIDs, etc

It's a question for TiVo community, definitely not in this thread.

If someone could tell me if KFLA is sending correct OTA guide info, then I would know its a tivo issue. Until that is confirmed, Im not absolutely positive who's at fault.

It's a question for TiVo community, definitely not in this thread.

Yeah whatever, I started a thread in tivo community days ago. Obviously "Tivo/OTA-only" is a small percentage of users. The tivo community is great, but how many are in LA and OTA only?

This is about OTA and this is Los Angeles, heaven forbid if it relates to OTA directv or OTA fios or OTA tivo, along with it.

Definitely some boorish people here.

Well stated, Turbobuick86. This is a complicated issue. As you stated, you are trying to determine the source of the problem. On a stand-alone DVD recorder hooked up to my OTA antenna, I cannot get any programming info for KFLA either, so I have a feeling it might be on their end.

I mainly watch 2-13 but occasionally will surf to other channels I have programmed when I'm bored.

Is there a channel guide available somewhere that tells me descriptions of the programming? I don't want to re-run the auto-scan as its a real pain in the ass on my TV to hide channels once they have been added.

I mainly watch 2-13 but occasionally will surf to other channels I have programmed when I'm bored.

Is there a channel guide available somewhere that tells me descriptions of the programming? I don't want to re-run the auto-scan as its a real pain in the ass on my TV to hide channels once they have been added.

http://www.titantv.com/

http://www.zap2it.com/

http://www.tvguide.com/Listings/

Has anyone noticed that KFLA has shifted the programming on its sub channels? MBN HD is on 8.1 and RTV is on 8.2 now.

Yeah, 8.1 is now broadcasting a Korean network. They are not actually in HD though. KFLA 10.5 station's website is havastv.com which I think is Arabic.

http://www.titantv.com/

http://www.zap2it.com/

http://www.tvguide.com/Listings/

Dur...feel dumb now. :o Thank you. haha

havastv.com is Persian not Arabic.

KFLA is a mess. They need to sort out their issues before DVR enthusiasts can get a dependable guide for recording.

On a stand-alone DVD recorder hooked up to my OTA antenna, I cannot get any programming info for KFLA either, so I have a feeling it might be on their end.

My Tivo shows the programming info for 8-1 on the old frequency (52?). But that's useless as there is no signal. I did a channel scan and got duplicate channels for KFLA (using the current frequency, 8). No guide info, but there is a signal.

True, I don't get any guide info on KFLA when I bypass my tivo (and hook the antenna directly to my tv), but I thought maybe that was due to a weak signal. Dunno. As for the Tivo, since they still have the programming info on the old frequency, there's no reason they don't have it for the current frequency KFLA is using.

So I'm thinking it's Tivo's fault. I'm thinking we're just waiting for them to notice the frequency change and to make the necessary mapping fixes or whatever.

Well yesterday I hear a 1KHZ tone on 18.10. Any idea
what this will be? Also, wasn't KCOP supposed to be
running BounceTV by now?

Has anyone else experienced reception problems since the beginning of the new year.

Now when I scan I can barely get 25-30 channels. Before the new year I could get 50-80 channels.

Also, now I get multiply listings for the same channel. For example, I'll get 7.1,7.1,7.1 listed 5 times. And I can't even get channel 50.1(socal pbs), 44.1, and 18.1 or any of the sub-channels.

I could never get channels 7.1,8.1,9.1,11.1,13.1 but I was fine with that. Now I'm having problems with the UHF channels to.

Can someone please explain to me what's going on? All I have on my tv is an antenna and that's it. No tivo or anything else.

Thanks:)

Has anyone else experienced reception problems since the beginning of the new year.

Now when I scan I can barely get 25-30 channels. Before the new year I could get 50-80 channels.

Also, now I get multiply listings for the same channel. For example, I'll get 7.1,7.1,7.1 listed 5 times. And I can't even get channel 50.1(socal pbs), 44.1, and 18.1 or any of the sub-channels.

I could never get channels 7.1,8.1,9.1,11.1,13.1 but I was fine with that. Now I'm having problems with the UHF channels to.

Can someone please explain to me what's going on? All I have on my tv is an antenna and that's it. No tivo or anything else.

Thanks:)Does it happen with other TVs/tuners?

The signal for channel 25 has been strong here for the past week or so. Previously I could pick up a weeak signal, but never lock in a picture. Looks like HSN & duplicate subchannels.

The signal for channel 25 has been strong here for the past week or so. Previously I could pick up a weeak signal, but never lock in a picture. Looks like HSN & duplicate subchannels.Same here as of last week.

Does it happen with other TVs/tuners?
No, I only have one tv in the house.

Oh, and I forgot to add channels keep disappearing.

Sigh!!:(

No, I only have one tv in the house.

Oh, and I forgot to add channels keep disappearing.

Sigh!!:(Maybe it is broken. Try another one with a borrowed tuner/TV.

Maybe it is broken. Try another one with a borrowed tuner/TV.


I concur. shoogy: This definitely seems to be a malfunction, and you should get your TV checked out. Hopefully it is still under warranty. Also, your inability to receive the VHF channels may be due to your antenna being inadequate for picking up VHF frequencies. You may need to obtain a more suitable antenna, or at least to try a new antenna location.

I did a rescan recently on my Pioneer set, and am now am able to pick up KFLA, although only intermittently. I find that it usually either comes in pirfectly, or else not at all. The breakdown seems to be about 40% of the time the former, and 60% the latter. This is evidently due to changing weather conditions. The RTV and TUFF-TV subchannels do seem to have some interesting programming, at times. But they definitely need to improve their signal, either by increasing transmitter power, improving their antenna, its location or all of the above.

I just ran a new TVFool signal analysis, and found that KFLA is blocked by terrain ("1Edge"). This is likely to be the problem with its signal here. However, I also get this same designation for KTTV 11.1 and KCOP 13.1, and yet I never have any problem with their signals; they are always very strong here. In any case, KFLA needs either to get its antenna out of the hole, or else substantially increase its power if they want to have reliable coverage to the west.

KFLA is LOS for me, but it does break up periodically.
For some reason it seems stronger in the evenings, then in the daytime.

I have noticed that KFMB channel 8 from San Diego has been a lot worse then usual since KFLA went back to RF8. I pick it up on a different antenna & don't really watch it much anyways, since most of the shows are the same as channel 2 CBS.

I did a rescan recently on my Pioneer set, and am now am able to pick up KFLA, although only intermittently. I find that it usually either comes in pirfectly, or else not at all. The breakdown seems to be about 40% of the time the former, and 60% the latter. This is evidently due to changing weather conditions. The RTV and TUFF-TV subchannels do seem to have some interesting programming, at times. But they definitely need to improve their signal, either by increasing transmitter power, improving their antenna, its location or all of the above.

Does your TvFool results for KFLA show an 'a' next to it? If so, KFLA may be affected by adjacent channel interferences from KABC and KCAL which are very strong relative to KFLA. TvFool explains what this interference is all about.

But they definitely need to improve their signal, either by increasing transmitter power,

Already maxed out.

improving their antenna,

Pattern is as permissive as would be permitted by the FCC.

its location

It's on the KCBS (TV-2/DT-60/FM, not DT-43) tower on Mount Wilson.

- Trip

KTTV amd KCOP are full power stations with over 100,000 watts. KFLA is a low power station with only 3,000 watts. That should explain why KTTV and KCOP are much easier to receive.

KTTV amd KCOP are full power stations with over 100,000 watts. KFLA is a low power station with only 3,000 watts. That should explain why KTTV and KCOP are much easier to receive.I noticed better signals from them. Did KABC also get full power recently like a couple months ago?

Already maxed out.



Pattern is as permissive as would be permitted by the FCC.



It's on the KCBS (TV-2/DT-60/FM, not DT-43) tower on Mount Wilson.

- Trip

Thank you for the clarifications.

By "maxed out" I assume you mean that it is running the maximum power currently granted to them by the FCC.

What in the world is a "permissive" radiation pattern?

If their antenna is mounted on the KCBS tower, it must be awfully far down on the tower, because TVFool shows KCBS as LOS (line-of-sight) whereas KFLA is not (1Edge).

Does your TvFool results for KFLA show an 'a' next to it? If so, KFLA may be affected by adjacent channel interferences from KABC and KCAL which are very strong relative to KFLA. TvFool explains what this interference is all about.

Yes, there is an "a" next to it, as well as other "problem" stations, like KTBN and KLCS. But I doubt that this is the main problem, since none of these stations is line-of-sight at my location.

Yes, there is an "a" next to it, as well as other "problem" stations, like KTBN and KLCS. But I doubt that this is the main problem, since none of these stations is line-of-sight at my location.

Don't know why you say it's not LOS so it doesn't affect me. It's the relative received signal strengths. Here is TVFools explanation:

Adjacent channel interference has more to do with your receiver. Some tuners are built with very poor adjacent channel rejection. That means that if you are trying to watch a weak channel with a very strong signal on an adjacent channel, the tuner can't pick out the weaker channel because the strong one is drowning it out. Most receivers have good adjacent channel rejection and are not very susceptible to this kind of problem, but in case you do have this problem, a warning indicator is placed next to channels at risk of having this kind of interference.

KFLA is LOS for me, but it does break up periodically.
For some reason it seems stronger in the evenings, then in the daytime.

I have noticed that KFMB channel 8 from San Diego has been a lot worse then usual since KFLA went back to RF8. I pick it up on a different antenna & don't really watch it much anyways, since most of the shows are the same as channel 2 CBS.

It has been my experience also that KFLA is stronger in the evenings. Interestingly though, it has been coming in nearly perfectly nonstop for the last couple of days, day and night.

KFMB often puts in a strong signal during the summer here, but I seldom see it during the winter. But I am much farther away here (124.2 miles), and need the right atmospheric conditions for long distance propagation. It will be interesting to see what will happen next summer when both stations are coming in.

By "maxed out" I assume you mean that it is running the maximum power currently granted to them by the FCC.

The FCC limit is 3 kW for any low-power digital VHF station. KFLA is at 3 kW. Hence, "maxed out."

What in the world is a "permissive" radiation pattern?

KFLA is required to protect KFMB in San Diego. They are using the antenna that allows them as much signal toward KFMB as possible, which is virtually zero.

If their antenna is mounted on the KCBS tower, it must be awfully far down on the tower, because TVFool shows KCBS as LOS (line-of-sight) whereas KFLA is not (1Edge).

As I said, it's the former KCBS-TV/DT and current KCBS-FM tower, not the current KCBS-TV/KCAL tower. That said, it is about a third of the way up the tower. I suspect going any higher would require a further reduction in power to protect KFMB.

- Trip

The FCC limit is 3 kW for any low-power digital VHF station. KFLA is at 3 kW. Hence, "maxed out."



KFLA is required to protect KFMB in San Diego. They are using the antenna that allows them as much signal toward KFMB as possible, which is virtually zero.



As I said, it's the former KCBS-TV/DT and current KCBS-FM tower, not the current KCBS-TV/KCAL tower. That said, it is about a third of the way up the tower. I suspect going any higher would require a further reduction in power to protect KFMB.

- Trip

Thank you for all of the clarifications.

I believe I may still have some old TVFool data for my location taken before the transition, when KCBS was transmitting on ch. 60. In any case, I am pretty sure it was LOS then as well. But if KFLA's antenna was only about a third of the way up the tower, the signal probably would be blocked by terrain in this direction, just as I was saying earlier.

Don't know why you say it's not LOS so it doesn't affect me. It's the relative received signal strengths. Here is TVFools explanation:


That is not what I said. I said, "I doubt that this is the main problem, since none of these stations is line-of-sight at my location." In other words, the signals from these stations are attenuated, sometimes severely, by terrain obstructions. This, I believe, is the main problem.

Also note in your quotation from TVFool:


Adjacent channel interference has more to do with your receiver. Some tuners are built with very poor adjacent channel rejection. That means that if you are trying to watch a weak channel with a very strong signal on an adjacent channel, the tuner can't pick out the weaker channel because the strong one is drowning it out. Most receivers have good adjacent channel rejection and are not very susceptible to this kind of problem, but in case you do have this problem, a warning indicator is placed next to channels at risk of having this kind of interference.

With high quality equipment and receivers, adjacent channel interference is probably of somewhat secondary importance, but you are perfectly right in raising this as an issue. This is indeed something we need to keep in mind. And this may explain why I do seem at times to see some reception differences between different receivers here in the case of KFLA.

Yeah I've notice since January 1 2012 all these new bizarre stations poping up with redundant programing a possible same ownership and then also flat out most bizarre channel is the Persian 10.5. 10.5 is one of the weirdest channels running very very grainy black and white persian programs from the 1950 to 1970's with vhs tape slp video quality ? With a Persian script ticker running across the top and some English script running along the bottom talking about free advertising quite bizarre. Yes 8.1 (now korean) and 8.2 (new rtv) are still mixed up with my tivo guide. In the past I've gone to the RTV website and email to Roy Mayhugh RTV's trouble shooter and get a eta on when they would get the crossup fixed but so far no word from Roy . It's amazing how many new channels have pop up since January 1. Whats wierd too is how 10.1 and 30.2 are showing almost the same kids programing and 10.4 and 56.3 show similar retro tv shows? LOL . It blows every time I try to update my tivo guide it's addition five minutes on the channel skip screen to delete all the new nonsense channels it just discovered:mad::p LOL.

Retro shows on 10.4?

I don't get why I can receive 10.5 just fine, but none of the others (10.1 or 10.4 etc)...

I also cannot pull in KIIO 10.1 and 10.4, but have no problem pulling in 10.5. I am in Mission Hills, CA and according to my TV Fool report, I should be able to pick it up with my rooftop antenna.

I also cannot pull in KIIO 10.1 and 10.4, but have no problem pulling in 10.5. I am in Mission Hills, CA and according to my TV Fool report, I should be able to pick it up with my rooftop antenna.

You are too far from LA (>100 miles) to pick-up KIIO which is a low power station. Wonder what you are actually pulling in on 10.5 . Can you post your TVFool results?

Sorry, looking at the wrong Mission Hills. Disregard my comments

Retro shows on 10.4?

I don't get why I can receive 10.5 just fine, but none of the others (10.1 or 10.4 etc)...

10.5 is broadcast on 8.5, but maps over to 10.5.
Same way 13.2 maps over to 11.2.

I also cannot pull in KIIO 10.1 and 10.4, but have no problem pulling in 10.5. I am in Mission Hills, CA and according to my TV Fool report, I should be able to pick it up with my rooftop antenna.

I have the same problem here in NW Granada Hills. KIIO 10.5 comes in much of the time, but there is never anything on 10.1 or 10.4, except during the summer, when KGTV, the ABC affiliate in San Diego, often comes in strong on subchannels 10.1, 10.2 and 10.15. TVFool does indeed list a KIIO-LD on 10, without specifying any subchannels, but it is badly obstructd (2Edge) and is listed in the gray section at the bottom of the chart. Reception is most likely virtually impossible, even with a good roof antenna, which I already am using.

Again, it appears oc-rdx is correct;

There is no KIIO-LD 10.5. You're receiving a sub-channel that is actually coming from KFLA-LD which should probably be virtual 8.5, but is mapping as 10.5 possibly due to an error in the PSIP data. Certainly not the first foible from KFLA which is normally the source of a comedy of them.

For instance, I try to occasionally watch RTV on their 8-2, but the lip sync is so bad to the point of resembling that of a bad Chinese martial arts picture voice translation, it makes viewing darn near insufferable. :rolleyes:

Again, it appears oc-rdx is correct;

There is no KIIO-LD 10.5. You're receiving a sub-channel that is actually coming from KFLA-LD which should probably be virtual 8.5, but is mapping as 10.5 possibly due to an error in the PSIP data. Certainly not the first foible from KFLA which is normally the source of a comedy of them.

For instance, I try to occasionally watch RTV on their 8-2, but the lip sync is so bad to the point of resembling that of a bad Chinese martial arts picture voice translation, it makes viewing darn near insufferable. :rolleyes:

No, I am pretty certain that I did indeed see the broadcast on 10.5 identifying itself as KIIO in the past, although there is no identification given at the present time. I am not disputing that it is being mapped over from 8.5. I would have suspected all along something of this nature to be the case. BTW I think you meant to say "KFLA-LD which should probably be 8.5, but is mapping as virtual 10.5". It is channel 10 in this case which would be the virtual channel.

No, I am pretty certain that I did indeed see the broadcast on 10.5 identifying itself as KIIO in the past, although there is no identification given at the present time. I am not disputing that it is being mapped over from 8.5. I would have suspected such to be the case. I think you meant to say "KFLA-LD which should probably be 8.5, but is mapping as virtual 10.5". It is channel 10 in this case which would be the virtual channel.

8.5 maps to virtual 10.5 KIIO-5.

The strangest one is virtual 23.4 which is RF49.4. The rest of RF 49 maps over to virtual 57.1 thru 57.9. There is even a 57.4.

OK, well ... I'm a bit confused here; :confused:

I'm assuming that 8.5 refers to KFLA's RF physical (that is, VHF channel 8 stream 5 of their TS)

But are you guys saying that this is intentionally mapped to virtual 10.5? That KFLA is using some of its bandwidth to supply KIIO an additional sub-channel ala KTTV's use of KCOP for their secondary sub-channel virtual 11-2?

Now I know why KTTV is doing it, but why is KFLA lending bandwidth to KIIO this way?

Are they in association with each other or something?

OK, well ... I'm a bit confused here; :confused:

I'm assuming that 8.5 refers to KFLA's RF physical (that is, VHF channel 8 stream 5 of their TS)

But are you guys saying that this is intentionally mapped to virtual 10.5? That KFLA is using some of its bandwidth to supply KIIO an additional sub-channel ala KTTV's use of KCOP for their secondary sub-channel virtual 11-2?

Now I know why KTTV is doing it, but why is KFLA lending bandwidth to KIIO this way?

Are they in association with each other or something?

You have it right. Actually, there are other cases in which one station's subchannel carries the call sign of another station. For example consider KXLA which carries ten subchannels on virtual ch 44 (real ch 51). While ch 44.1 is identified as KXLA-DT and 44.2 as KXLADT2, yet ch 44.10 is identified as KVMD-DT. Obviously, there must be some sort of agreement between the two stations, as well as with the FCC.

The rules concerning legal identification are in Title 47, Part 73 of the CFR here (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=cf0e08fc306b69687a2e225fe6beef27&rgn=div8&view=text&node=47:4.0.1.1.2.8.1.9&idno=47). The only legal IDs are conveyed visually and/or aurally. The seven-character name of a virtual channel is simply text and has no legal meaning. The seven rules governing major channel numbers start on page 92 of ATSC Standard a/65 found here (http://www.atsc.org/cms/standards/a_65-2009.pdf) (PDF). Condition 7 covers what we are talking about, which means that it is expressly permitted unless it causes a collision in the market.

Keep in mind that some of the LPTVs and Class A stations cover only a portion of the metro, so getting space on another station enables coverage of other areas, just like a translator would.

Why would you want to use a UHF only antenna to try and pick up VHF channels?

Change to a decent UHF/VHF antenna - radio shack antennas are actually quite good. Remove the pre-amp, it will just increase the noise floor, and enjoy free off air TV!

Because of terrain, my prospects for successful DTV reception didn't seem good. A few weeks back, I searched archives in this forum for threads about local installations.

Inspired by a few threads in the archives, I recently installed an OTA antenna for my Dish 6000 to receive the local Los Angeles DTV broadcasts. I don't have clear line of sight to Mount Wilson, which is 46 miles distant. (For local readers familiar with the area, I'm in hilly terrain above the intersection of Trabuco Road and Lake Forest Drive in Lake Forest.) There's a ridge 0.3 miles away that's 44 feet higher than the elevation at my house, as measured with a GPS. Plus, the ridge has trees and 2-story apartments, offset somewhat since my roof-mounted antenna is 25 feet off the ground. Beyond the ridge, there's nothing else in the way.

I installed a Radio Shack 15-2160 yagi with one of their 30dB mast-mounted pre-amps. I used a Winegard DS-3000 J-pipe mount that's securely bolted to the fascia on the eave of my roof line. This mount is nearly identical to the mounts that come standard with Dish Network SATV dishes, except the pipe is longer and can be cut to length. I found this mount online at dishplace.com. Starkelectronics.com sells them for less, but was out of stock.

I've had mixed results with DTV reception... KABC, KNBC, KTLA(WB) are consistently in the high 70s to high 80s. KCET(PBS) is usually in the low to mid 60s and exhibits occasional dropouts. KCOP(UPN) is often 55 to 65 and also exhibits some dropouts. Most of the time, I can't receive KCBS or KTTV(FOX) at all. I've never received a KCAL9 (local independent) DTV broadcast, but I haven't performed automatic DTV searches since the antenna installation, either. Numerous Hispanic stations have strong DTV signal levels, but these don't interest me. There is some variation in signal consitions, as would be expected.

I'm not confident that my antenna orientation is optumum, either. For work, I occasionally rent a spectrum analyzer. Sure wish I had one now to help with antenna orientation! Or, that Telemann HiPix HTPC card that can show concurrent receive signal levels for all DTV stations!!

Regarding picture quality...
I noticed that even SD OTA broadcasts are significantly better than the corresponding local station broadcasts from Dish Network. I suspect that Dish is compressing signal bandwidth more than the local OTA transmitters.

I believe KABC is broadcasting 720i format while the others are boradcasting 1080i. Right? Does this explain why KABC SD fills the screen while the other stations' SD has bands at the sides?

Lessons learned...
I'll mention a few antenna complications I encountered. A warning might help others...

1. Until halfway through the installation process, I realized that some stations don't broadcast DTV 24/7 - KCET(PBS) for one, maybe there are other stations. It's hard to find stations that aren't broadcasting!! (duh)

2. I used the u-bolt clamp that comes with the Shadio Rack Yagi, and it was a tight fit over the Winegard mast. This presented some problems. I used a compass to initially aim the antenna boom, then noticed that the azimuth would change when tightening the two u-bolt nuts! Tighten the rear-facing nut, and the antenna boom would turn to the left. Tighten the front nut, and the boom would move right! This was not a minor effect. I had to keep checking azimuth with the compass, and carefully alternate tightening. Even then it was not an exact, known azimuth adjustment.

3. Before mounting the antenna, I used a bubble level to make sure the mast pipe was plumb. I was surprised that this did not assure consistent antenna elevation because of the antenna's u-bolt clamp! After numerous trials with strange results, I discovered that antenna elevation was changing significantly with each azimuth adjustment. Finally, I ended up setting elevation after each azimuth adjustment by (a) loosening the J-pipe at the mounting plate, (b) reading a bubble level laid on the antenna boom while tilting the mast as necessary to get the desired elevation, and (c) tightening the J-pipe mount with an eye on the bubble level to make sure it stays at the desired tilt. Once the J-pipe mount was tight, the elevation was rock solid.

4. Due to problems 2 and 3 above, I wasted two hours making small antenna adjustments with large introduced errors. Only the last few trials had reliable azimuth and elevation settings. Since rain was threatening when I performed my antenna adjustments, I need another round of tests to optimize antenna orientation. Then, I'll consider next steps.

The RS Yagi is quite sensitive to orientation. From my house, the azimuth spread is only a quarter degree to cover all operating DTV stations on Mt Wilson. The KCBS tower is offset from the others (as seen from my house) accounting for roughly half of this spread. This might explain why I rarely "see" KCBS.

The Radio Shack yagi specs do not provide a gain/azimuth plot, but I'd expect this antenna to have a narrow frontal lobe. I am surprised how sensitive some DTV stations are to antenna orientation, while others seem insensitive.

I used the lat-lon coordinates at an online geodetic distance calculator (dead link today) to compute the azimuth to each local DTV antenna. This showed me the spatial relationship between the stations as they range from WNW to NNW, as viewed from my house, which explains how antenna azimuth adjustment might change reception for the various stations.

I have wondered if all these stations are operating at their full licensed output power.

Comment on Radio Shack equipment: In the past I designed products that were sold by RS. Their specifications and acceptance criteria are significantly higher than most people would assume. Their products are probably suitable for many applications, and there's no reason to spend more unless it's necessary. That yagi retails for $21.99, an inexpensive experiment.

I realize my installation my be pushing the envelope due to marginal OTA conditions. If ongoing experiments with antenna orientation don't improve my OTA reception, I might consider a better antenna and/or ChannelMaster UHF-only pre-amp.

All comments welcome...
Gary

GaryJC,

You need to evaluate your potential reception conditions using the online tool at TVFool.com here (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90). Enter your exact address. On the resulting Google map, ensure that the icon points to your location. Zoom in as needed to do this. Update the antenna height above ground, then click the "make radar plot" button. Bookmark the page that opens. Share that URL with us if you want. Read the signal analysis FAQ if you don't understand something.

Two tips: 1) you can show bearings to the transmitter locations on the Google map. By zooming in far enough, you can get some landmarks for aiming. 2) if you do not have line of sight, you would do well to aim the antenna UP by 10 degrees or so.

You should do well with an Antenna Craft HBU-22 or -33.

Why would you want to use a UHF only antenna to try and pick up VHF channels?

Change to a decent UHF/VHF antenna - radio shack antennas are actually quite good. Remove the pre-amp, it will just increase the noise floor, and enjoy free off air TV!


Yes I agree and you don't have to spend to much ethier. Last 2 years I've used RCA ANT751R Outdoor Antenna still available on amazon for $46.54 , I have mine mount to 20 foot mast off the ground and I have zero issues with pulling in all the hd ota channels in the 91775 zip code. Ive got line of site of the Mt. Wilson transmitters but live in a old lath and plaster house that make reception with even amplified rabbited ear antennas dodgey at best. So with about a 80.00 investment I now have free hd tv and with new services Like Amazon instant video and other websites I see zero need pricey cable or sat tv.

Why would you want to use a UHF only antenna to try and pick up VHF channels?

Change to a decent UHF/VHF antenna - radio shack antennas are actually quite good. Remove the pre-amp, it will just increase the noise floor, and enjoy free off air TV!

Please note that you're responding to a post that is over 9 years old. At that time all the digital broadcasts were on UHF. A lot has changed since. I suspect that the OP has moved on by now!

Looks like KMEX Channel 34 will get English subtitles starting next week.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204624204577181472663149292.html

The subtitles seem to be only for Univision's prime time dramas. Not sure if it will make much of a difference though. From my unscientific observations, it seems like most people here would rather have dubs (even bad ones) than have subtitles. Maybe they will even Americanize the subs so it seems like the series is taking place in the U.S.

Im out here in Temecula and I have a CM 4228 with preamp mounted on my roof and 5 years ago I got all of the LA stations no problem but this weekend I re-mounted it and now Im getting zero signal strength on KABC, KCOP, KTTV and KCAL.

But notables such as KCBS, KNBC, KCET, and KTLA are all coming in with 75% to 85% signal strength.

I did some digging in this thread and noticed that the channels Im not getting all switched to VHF. Shouldn't the CM 4228 be able to get VHF? If not what are my options for a long range VHF/UHF combo antenna?

Im roughly 70 miles from Mt Wilson.

I rescanned today and got 109 channels, but not 8 KFLA. There are three channels with nothing there: 28-9, 28-10, and 41-7. Is KCET planning on starting two more channels?

Im out here in Temecula and I have a CM 4228 with preamp mounted on my roof and 5 years ago I got all of the LA stations no problem but this weekend I re-mounted it and now Im getting zero signal strength on KABC, KCOP, KTTV and KCAL.

But notables such as KCBS, KNBC, KCET, and KTLA are all coming in with 75% to 85% signal strength.

I did some digging in this thread and noticed that the channels Im not getting all switched to VHF. Shouldn't the CM 4228 be able to get VHF? If not what are my options for a long range VHF/UHF combo antenna?

Im roughly 70 miles from Mt Wilson.

I'm using a CM4228 in my attic with a CM7777 preamp and can get all the LA VHF signals except for KFLA 8, which I think is a low power station, or at least not aimed for south Orange County due to KFMB 8 in San Diego.

I think there is a Winegard antenna that is highly recommended for VHF/UHF, don't recall the model number.

The 4228 is a UHF antenna that gets a bit of high VHF reception (mostly on channels 10-13), especially if you wire tie the reflectors together. It's not going to compare with a real high VHF antenna, but if you have a strong signal and a tuner that handles multipath well then it might be enough. The 4228 is still one of the best UHF antennas in existence, so if you've got room and don't mind having 2 separate antennas, you might just want to add a high VHF only antenna like the Winegard YA-1713 or Antennacraft Y10-7-13 and use a UVSJ to combine with the 4228. If you don't want to deal with separate antennas, then look at the Winegard HD7698P, Channel Master CM2020, or Antennacraft HBU44.

The 4228 is a UHF antenna that gets a bit of high VHF reception (mostly on channels 10-13), especially if you wire tie the reflectors together. It's not going to compare with a real high VHF antenna, but if you have a strong signal and a tuner that handles multipath well then it might be enough. The 4228 is still one of the best UHF antennas in existence, so if you've got room and don't mind having 2 separate antennas, you might just want to add a high VHF only antenna like the Winegard YA-1713 or Antennacraft Y10-7-13 and use a UVSJ to combine with the 4228. If you don't want to deal with separate antennas, then look at the Winegard HD7698P, Channel Master CM2020, or Antennacraft HBU44.


thank you! I'll grab a VHF antenna

I rescanned today and got 109 channels, but not 8 KFLA. There are three channels with nothing there: 28-9, 28-10, and 41-7. Is KCET planning on starting two more channels?

KCET 28-9 and 10, are false channels generated by the OTA "UpdateTV" service.

http://www.updatelogic.com/network.html

Don't know what 41-7 could be, not receiving that one at all here in South L.A. At least not from Mt. Wilson.

anyone have experience with the ClearStream 5 VHF antenna? Got a great deal on one and Im looking to pair it with my Channel Master 4228. Any suggestions on the best way to combine them? I have an older model CM 7777 preamp so it doesn't have the seperate VHF and UHF inputs and Im wondering if I can get away with using a splitter to combine the antenna signals and send them to the preamp or should I just spend $$$ and pickup a preamp with VHF and UHF inputs?

any suggestions would really be appreciated, thanks!

anyone have experience with the ClearStream 5 VHF antenna? Got a great deal on one and Im looking to pair it with my Channel Master 4228. Any suggestions on the best way to combine them? I have an older model CM 7777 preamp so it doesn't have the seperate VHF and UHF inputs and Im wondering if I can get away with using a splitter to combine the antenna signals and send them to the preamp or should I just spend $$$ and pickup a preamp with VHF and UHF inputs?

any suggestions would really be appreciated, thanks!

At your location where the TV signals are weak, you need to maintain the strength of the signals by using a preamp with separate inputs. Using a splitter with its losses could cause you to lose stations that were just above the detection threshold. You could use a UVSJ splitter/combiner if you don't want to get another preamp, it has a very small insertion loss.

At your location where the TV signals are weak, you need to maintain the strength of the signals by using a preamp with separate inputs. Using a splitter with its losses could cause you to lose stations that were just above the detection threshold. You could use a UVSJ splitter/combiner if you don't want to get another preamp, it has a very small insertion loss.


thanks for the advice, looks like the Clearstream 5 comes with a UVSJ

http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/UHF_VHF_antenna_combiner.html

I'll try this with my existing preamp first and if it fails I'll buy a new preamp with vhf/uhf inputs.

I had a power amp attached to my RCA ANT751R Outdoor Antenna and all it did was increase the signal noise and I lost channels . I took off the power amp everything came though clearly actually more channels then I wanted (all sorts of crazy foreign languages channels its a mystery who the audience is? ) . I get so many channels now its a really bother every time channels move around and I have to rescan (like the 8's or the 56's move programing around) its a ten minute job deleting a the unwanted garbage channels on my tv and tivo tuners :eek::mad::p lol. I think get a traditional larger antenna outdoors would suit most if you do get a amp you need to get a good quality amp because the cheap ones just strength the bad signal noise.

Preamps can and will overload with strong signal levels....and the higher the Gain, the more likely
it will overload, resulting in Intermod Noise desensitizing the weaker channel positions. Most are
intended for RURAL locations and must be chosen carefully to maximize the SFDR (Spurious Free
Dynamic Range):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota

============================================================ ==========
PS: Only 47% of people 18-yo & older in Los Angeles County speak English at home, per 2000 Census stats:
http://www.laalmanac.com/population/po47.htm
Spanish 35%, Chinese 3.5%, Tagalog 2.5% (Philippines), Korean 2.0%, Armenian 1.6%, Vietnamese 0.9%,
Persian 0.8%, Japanese 0.8%, Russian 0.6%, French 0.5%, German 0.4%, Italian 0.3%, Cambodian 0.3%, et. al.
Each percentage point is just under 69,000 adults plus perhaps as many kids under 18.

Some of these people have a long history in California and some were recent immigrants looking for work
or joining relatives. And some were refugees from wars, famine, religious persecution and ethnic cleansing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_diaspora [Just one example from WW-I era.]

FREE OTA is very popular compared to the expensive (and limited) foreign language channels on Cable & SAT.

waiting on a new CM7778 preamp to arrive but since I picked up a Clearstream 5 antenna I mounted it on my roof and I'm happy to report I'm getting all the UHF and VHF LA stations except KCAL, KCOP and KFLA. Being 70+ miles away from MT Wilson and not using a preamp, color me impressed with this antenna!

waiting on a new CM7778 preamp to arrive but since I picked up a Clearstream 5 antenna I mounted it on my roof and I'm happy to report I'm getting all the UHF and VHF LA stations except KCAL, KCOP and KFLA. Being 70+ miles away from MT Wilson and not using a preamp, color me impressed with this antenna!
Trust me, you aren't missing a thing on KFLA. KCAL not showing up is a little surprising as it's one of the better performers in the VHF spectrum, but you are near the digital cliff at 70 miles. Once you get your preamp, make a go solely for KCAL reception and the rest on the big Vs will likely fall right into line as well. Good luck.

waiting on a new CM7778 preamp to arrive but since I picked up a Clearstream 5 antenna I mounted it on my roof and I'm happy to report I'm getting all the UHF and VHF LA stations except KCAL, KCOP and KFLA. Being 70+ miles away from MT Wilson and not using a preamp, color me impressed with this antenna!

Well I use to like KFLA RTV channel and its retro tv programing it's back to the 8.2 they changed the RTV line up and its not so hot anymore . But even if you a fan of Korean language programing (8.1) I doubt you get much even with the preamp. Because in march or April 2011 KFLA based on a bad radio engineering survey moved there new high power transmitter/ antennae to a new lower position on Mt Wilson (which isn't really a mountain) and lost most of the eastern San Gabriel valley and anywhere close to the foothills. My friend lives in Covina Ca. and get zero reception for KFLA channels. KFLA fired the radio engineer who did the survey but there still waiting for FCC approval to raise their Mt.Wilson antenna again. Were I live in San Gabriel CA I still get KFLA stations, the only one I watch is RTV 8.2 but at random times of the day I get loads of audio drop out were it makes the program like "The Saint" unwatchable. If you like retro tv 5.2 and 56.3 area the better bets for quality retro TV (which I'm a horrible junkie of LOL:);) ) Yeah hope you can get Kcal though with your preamp they got great news, Laker /Baseball games for free .

waiting on a new CM7778 preamp to arrive but since I picked up a Clearstream 5 antenna I mounted it on my roof and I'm happy to report I'm getting all the UHF and VHF LA stations except KCAL, KCOP and KFLA. Being 70+ miles away from MT Wilson and not using a preamp, color me impressed with this antenna!

If you look at KFLA's coverage map at:

http://www.kfla.tv/coverage.html

don't be surprised that you don't receive it. No signals are directed at Temecula because KFLA is required to protect the San Diego station.

Preamps can and will overload with strong signal levels....and the higher the Gain, the more likely
it will overload, resulting in Intermod Noise desensitizing the weaker channel positions. Most are
intended for RURAL locations and must be chosen carefully to maximize the SFDR (Spurious Free
Dynamic Range):
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota

============================================================ ==========
PS: Only 47% of people 18-yo & older in Los Angeles County speak English at home, per 2000 Census stats:
http://www.laalmanac.com/population/po47.htm
Spanish 35%, Chinese 3.5%, Tagalog 2.5% (Philippines), Korean 2.0%, Armenian 1.6%, Vietnamese 0.9%,
Persian 0.8%, Japanese 0.8%, Russian 0.6%, French 0.5%, German 0.4%, Italian 0.3%, Cambodian 0.3%, et. al.
Each percentage point is just under 69,000 adults plus perhaps as many kids under 18.

Some of these people have a long history in California and some were recent immigrants looking for work
or joining relatives. And some were refugees from wars, famine, religious persecution and ethnic cleansing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_diaspora [Just one example from WW-I era.]

FREE OTA is very popular compared to the expensive (and limited) foreign language channels on Cable & SAT.


Hmmmm yes I can see five to ten, Spanish, Chinese and Armenian channels a piece based on the large populations in So Cal. But I think OTA hd tv is beginning to suffer from the problem cable TV did from 60's to early 80's and was almost caused cable legislated out of existence (like ota is constantly being threaten currently by moronic bribed off FCC commissioners and congress). Because most cable stations back then were rich mans toys not economically viable (most were purposefully ran at a loss for taxes dodges) and provide nothing return "communities at large" . The best parody was SCTV.I want to see large body of health , profitable OTA TV channels showing quality news, sports and entrainment programing. And right now the L.A. county market has way too many OTA hd channels poping up (both English and non English programing ) to make a health for OTA market. And if you ask a lot of former employees of KCET Los Angeles what wreck Kcet, they will say it was HD tv and the addition of the VM channel :( which cause a hemorrhage of fund raising losses from corporate and private contributions KCET never covered from. Which finally forced KCET out of tradition PBS network its still a crap shoot if KCET will survive the year. Yes I know I'll hear the clad trap that the donors are all racist hicks but VM was created for a imaginary audience and ratings for all three KCET's stations have plummeted since (census statics were used to justify VM). The black lash did wreck one of PBS's oldest and biggest outlets for its programing . So statics don't tell the whole story .

got the new preamp yesterday and while Im still not getting KCOP or KFLA (not a big deal) I am getting KCAL at 75% signal strength but I noticed that from 6pm until 10pm signal strength dropped to under 20% and unwatchable.

All the other VHF and UHF channels are rock solid, any idea what could cause KCAL to lose that much signal strength?

I counted 16 HD channels in the LA area. That is not excessive in my opinion. As far as all those subchannels go, my suspicion is they most likely are not programmed by the channel owner. Instead, they are just leased to anybody who is willing to pay the rent. Of course you will need some programs for your subchannel. Whatever they can acquire cheaply is the norm which means foreign, religious, and infomercials.

got the new preamp yesterday and while Im still not getting KCOP or KFLA (not a big deal) I am getting KCAL at 75% signal strength but I noticed that from 6pm until 10pm signal strength dropped to under 20% and unwatchable.

All the other VHF and UHF channels are rock solid, any idea what could cause KCAL to lose that much signal strength?

It could be multipath interference. Some people have reduced the interference by pointing their antenna in a slightly different direction i.e. left, right, up, or down.

got the new preamp yesterday and while Im still not getting KCOP or KFLA (not a big deal)
I am getting KCAL at 75% signal strength but I noticed that from 6pm until 10pm signal strength dropped to under 20% and unwatchable.

All the other VHF and UHF channels are rock solid, any idea what could cause KCAL to lose that much signal strength?
Could be KCAL transmitter power level changes.....or one of the other strong nearby signals is changing,
which in turn is changing the INTERFERENCE levels. Or maybe YOU or a neighbor comes home and turns
on an interference source, such as Fluorescent lights (some CFL's can be quite BAD).

Ch12 (K12PO) is a repeater for San Diego's KUSI, located north of I15/I215 split, about
1-mi East of I215 off Clinton Keith Road....my son is a bit further East....
[BTW: Analog KDUG Ch21 is about 1-mi West of I215...and Ch27 has been off the air for awhile].

KXFG-FM (92.5 MHz) is co-located with K12PO....only 6 kW, but it's very close.
KTMQ-FM (103.3 MHz) and KMYT-FM (94.5 MHz) are further away, but with higher power.

Local Ch12 can make reception of adjacent Ch11 (KTTV Fox) and Ch13 (KCOP MyN) quite difficult.
Outdoors we've used side-lobe null directed towards Ch12 to receive these stations, but in the
attic it has been very hit and (mostly) miss....even after we tweaked YA-1713 antenna position to
null out Ch12 (required a LOT of attenuation before the signal was weak enough to see changes).
Fortuitously, the YA-1713 sidelobe angle was very close to what we needed....

Second Harmonic of Local 92.5 MHz is 185 MHz, which acts as adjacent channel interference
to Ch9 on 189 MHz....and second harmonic of 94.5 MHz lies directly on Ch9. A Preamp will
readily generate these harmonic interference signals....esp. high gain Preamps.....unless
attenuated by FM Notch Filters or preferably Full Band Stop Filters, since Notch Filter
effective bandwidth is only on the order of 1 MHz or so....factory tuned to protect Ch6.

It is also a possibility that Third Order INTERMOD products are interfering with Ch9 (KCAL)
and even Ch7 (KABC)....I see five combinations of the above freqs that lie on top of Ch9.

I don't know what the Gain is in the FM Band for the A-D C5, but I have modeled the
similar Loop+ScreenReflector, which had about -2 to -4 dBi Gain in FM Band:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops/looprefl
FWIW: 4nec2 model for YA-1713 calculated about -1 dBi Gain in FM Band, so it too is
receiving quite a bit of the available FM signal energy.

thank you for the info, yesterday was exactly like Saturday where KCAL was fine until 6pm, signal drops under 20% and after 10pm its back to over 75%.

I am using a CM 7777 preamp with FM trap enabled but I suspect something is over powering the signal during the evening hours as it only seems to be VHF channel 9 being affected as both channel 7 and 11 stay the same.

At least go through YOUR home, flipping CFL and any other Fluorescent
lights on and off to see if there is any effect. Also LED lights, Dimmers
and even electrical motors if they are always on.

I will thanks again!

At least go through YOUR home, flipping CFL and any other Fluorescent
lights on and off to see if there is any effect. Also LED lights, Dimmers
and even electrical motors if they are always on.

A fluorescent light in my garage will knockout KFLA when it is turned on. It can also cause problems on some FM HD radio signals.

I also have an undercounter light in my kitchen that causes static on AM.

thank you for the info, yesterday was exactly like Saturday where KCAL was fine until 6pm, signal drops under 20% and after 10pm its back to over 75%.

I am using a CM 7777 preamp with FM trap enabled but I suspect something is over powering the signal during the evening hours as it only seems to be VHF channel 9 being affected as both channel 7 and 11 stay the same.

If you are located near the French Valley airport (gleaned from your previous posts) then according to TVFool, you are in a reception-challenged area. Your VHF signals are not LOS, instead they are 1 or 2 edges diffractions. You need a better antenna such as the Y10-7-13. A comparison between that antenna and the C5 can be found at:

http://www.antennahacks.com/Comparisons/Y10-7-13_vs_C5.htm

A stronger KCAL signal would lessen your senstivity to external electrical interference. Also with the extra signal strengths you might be able to receive KCOP.

If you are located near the French Valley airport (gleaned from your previous posts) then according to TVFool, you are in a reception-challenged area. Your VHF signals are not LOS, instead they are 1 or 2 edges diffractions. You need a better antenna such as the Y10-7-13. A comparison between that antenna and the C5 can be found at:

http://www.antennahacks.com/Comparisons/Y10-7-13_vs_C5.htm

A stronger KCAL signal would lessen your senstivity to external electrical interference. Also with the extra signal strengths you might be able to receive KCOP.

I appreciate the info and yes I am about 2 miles east of the French Valley airport. I will try and move the C5 a few degrees and if that fails, I'll look into the Y10-7-13.

A-D C5 has a very broadbeam, unlike W-G YA-1713 or Antennacraft Y10-13-7 with narrow beamwidths
and sidelobe nulls that can suppress local Ch12, if it is on a different "look" angle than Mt Wilson:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/cmss_files/attachmentlibrary/C5_%20technical_%20data_%20with_uhf.pdf
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/logyagi/y10713

4Yeah hope you can get Kcal though with your preamp they got great news, Laker /Baseball games for free .

Lakers basketball on KCAL ends this season. It'll be cable only for at least the next 2 decades after this season (minus the times the Lakers appear on ABC). It's the end of the Channel 9 era.

Lakers basketball on KCAL ends this season. It'll be cable only for at least the next 2 decades after this season (minus the times the Lakers appear on ABC). It's the end of the Channel 9 era.And Lakers are not doing well either. :(

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d40330909db0c9f and http://i.imgur.com/q7LS4.jpg (AntennaWeb). Their finds look very bad for my most likely future home. :(

Google Street View's Photograph/Photo. of the front of the house with big trees from November 2008: http://i.imgur.com/XThYd.jpg ... It is located in La Habra Heights deep on its giant hills and many trees.

Does this mean I am stuck to get many local OTA channels and have to get a cable/satellite TV service to watch compressed HD TV feeds? KCBS, KNBC, KTLA, KABC, KCAL (Lakers!), KTTV, KCET, KOCE, sometimes Chinese stations (e.g., KSCI) for my parents, etc. If OTA is still possible, then how high and crazy will the roof/attic antenna is going to be to get all the channels I want?

Thank you in advance. :)Just for kicks, what type of roof top/outdoor antenna do this house need to get the local broadcast English channels on an one floor house? Obviously, the antennae need to be returnable if these tests fail. http://i.imgur.com/LTao8.jpg for the aerial shot of the rooftop (note that it has a satellite dish already from previous owners).

The one that's up there already ought to do the trick. A satellite dish is, after all, an antenna at heart. I wouldn't even waste my time trying to get terrestrial broadcasts with a TVFool plot like that.

Just for kicks, what type of roof top/outdoor antenna do this house need to get the local broadcast English channels on an one floor house? Obviously, the antennae need to be returnable if these tests fail. http://i.imgur.com/LTao8.jpg for the aerial shot of the rooftop (note that it has a satellite dish already from previous owners).

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86e11b132c05

is my TVfool plot and I have been using these antennas for some years for LA stations; usually KVCR, KCET, KOCE and KLCS. Also KCBS, KNBC, KTTV, KABC, KCOP, KCAL etc.

http://carney-associates.com/CCC/Antenna1.JPG

I have a 50 foot coax run and use a WG preamp.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86e11b132c05

is my TVfool plot and I have been using these antennas for some years for LA stations; usually KVCR, KCET, KOCE and KLCS. Also KCBS, KNBC, KTTV, KABC, KCOP, KCAL etc.

http://carney-associates.com/CCC/Antenna1.JPG

I have a 50 foot coax run and use a WG preamp.Wow, and your tvfools look bad like mine and you manage to get them well? Wow. Are you behind a hill with that house and roof top antenna?

Wow, and your tvfools look bad like mine and you manage to get them well? Wow. Are you behind a hill with that house and roof top antenna?

Not behind a hill...can see the ocean from here but only to the southwest. It is a two story house. Just inland from Oceanside on the western edge of San Marcos. I have been watching the golf tournament on 2.1 KCBS all afternoon.

Just for kicks, what type of roof top/outdoor antenna do this house need to get the local broadcast English channels on an one floor house? Obviously, the antennae need to be returnable if these tests fail. http://i.imgur.com/LTao8.jpg for the aerial shot of the rooftop (note that it has a satellite dish already from previous owners).Maybe this is a good sign?

The previous owner finally moved out. They also left their coax cables and tiny satellite dish on the roof. I also managed to borrow a portable 7" DTV with a rabbit ear's single/one antenna. I went to explore while my folks were doing other things.

With this portable DTV, I only got channel 31.x indoor and outdoor facing north. I also sort of got more channels, but sort of stable with FOX 11.x and KABC 7.x if I am outside in front of the house's garage and facing Mount Wilson's direction(?) (forgot to bring a compass to get its exact direction). I had to face the big hills/mountains away from the neighbor's big house. I also noticed the trees were much taller than the houses. I wonder if it possible to stick an antenna up there on their main trunks (they're not higher than the huge hills though). Is that possible?

Also, can I use that satellite dish to act like an OTA antenna? For kicks, I tried hooking up it up to the portable DTV and it can pick up channel 31.x like the antenna! And no, it can't get it without coax port connected. Also, the sky was cloudy and started to clear out if that matters.

Maybe this is a good sign?

The previous owner finally moved out. They also left their coax cables and tiny satellite dish on the roof. I also managed to borrow a portable 7" DTV with a rabbit ear's single/one antenna. I went to explore while my folks were doing other things.

With this portable DTV, I only got channel 31.x indoor and outdoor facing north. I also sort of got more channels, but sort of stable with FOX 11.x and KABC 7.x if I am outside in front of the house's garage and facing Mount Wilson's direction(?) (forgot to bring a compass to get its exact direction). I had to face the big hills/mountains away from the neighbor's big house. I also noticed the trees were much taller than the houses. I wonder if it possible to stick an antenna up there on their main trunks (they're not higher than the huge hills though). Is that possible?

Also, can I use that satellite dish to act like an OTA antenna? For kicks, I tried hooking up it up to the portable DTV and it can pick up channel 31.x like the antenna! And no, it can't get it without coax port connected. Also, the sky was cloudy and started to clear out if that matters.

I think you will need a good VHF/UHF antenna to try out on the peak of your roof. Try entering different heights into TVfool to see what results you get.

I think you will need a good VHF/UHF antenna to try out on the peak of your roof. Try entering different heights into TVfool to see what results you get.TVfool said I needed to be 188 feet (a 20 floors highrise height) minimal to get green status for the local Mt. Wilson stations. :(

TVfool said I needed to be 188 feet (a 20 floors highrise height) minimal to get green status for the local Mt. Wilson stations. :(

That figures. See what height it would take to get to above 0 NM for the stations you want...you don't need to be in the green. KCBS is -3.1 dB and is solid here.

Ennui: Is that one antenna on your roof or two? Plus, what is the brand & model number(s)?

That figures. See what height it would take to get to above 0 NM for the stations you want...you don't need to be in the green. KCBS is -3.1 dB and is solid here.108 feet above ground with KCBS barely (0.1 NM/dB). :(

Ennui: Is that one antenna on your roof or two? Plus, what is the brand & model number(s)?

The top UHF is a Winegard 9095P. It was put up first, before I needed a VHF antenna. The lower VHF is a Winegard YA1713 modified for rear mounting. The preamp is a Winegard AP-8275. The rotator is a Yaesu big unit that was used for rotating a large ham antenna previously installed there. I should mention that the preamp has inputs for both the VHF and UHF antennas.

108 feet above ground with KCBS barely (0.1 NM/dB). :(

KCBS is probably the weakest signal here but it is plenty strong at -3.1. I think you need to give a UHF/Hi VHF antenna a try and, if you have a long coax run, maybe a preamp too.

KCBS is probably the weakest signal here but it is plenty strong at -3.1. I think you need to give a UHF/Hi VHF antenna a try and, if you have a long coax run, maybe a preamp too.Any recommendations on the antenna that can be easily returned if it fails?

FYI if you missed them earlier and new ones (in front of the house's garage and behind the tree left of the neighbor's house):

KABC7, KTTV11, and 31.x (KVMD; best and indoor and in out front of kitchen to face a tree left of neighbor's house to Mt. Wilson's direction.

No height entered: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d40330909db0c9f
25 ft.: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86cb35bdb459
40 ft.: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86ddb20485e8

Photos.:
http://i.imgur.com/q7LS4.jpg (antennaweb)
http://i.imgur.com/KWz13.gif (location on Google Maps)
http://i.imgur.com/LTao8.jpg (aerial shot of the rooftop -- note the existing satellite dish from the previous home owner)
http://i.imgur.com/uRTeb.jpg (zoomed out 45 degrees aerial shot with house on the bottom right corner)
http://i.imgur.com/vXboD.jpg (Google Earth's elevation shot of Mt. Wilson and home)
http://i.imgur.com/seYcH.jpg (Street View of trees in front of the house facing Mt. Wilson's direction)
http://i.imgur.com/XThYd.jpg (Street View of more trees on west side of the house)

Any recommendations on the antenna that can be easily returned if it fails?

Sorry, can't help you there.

Sorry, can't help you there.OK and thanks.

Any recommendations on the antenna that can be easily returned if it fails?

While not a suggestion for a specific antenna, I find that Fry's has a decent selection of real antennas (i.e. true outdoor antennas by real brands like Winegard and Channel Master) and their return policy is generally very permissive.

Hello Folks,

I recently replaced my parent's 10-year old Sony 36" analog tube set with a new 40" Hitachi LCD with built-in ATSC tuner. After scanning for channels I found I only got channels 2-5 and 22-69. I seem to be missing 7-18. This is in the VHF-HI band area. I know it's not the tuner in the new TV as I had the same problem with a small LCD-TV they used as a temp replacement for a week or so before the new TV arrived. I initially thought it was a problem with the cheap temp TV. They have a large VHF/UHF outdoor antenna mounted on the roof of a two-story home with an unobstructed view of Mt. Wilson transmission towers. I live nearby with a similar configuration and receive all channels. Any ideas why the VHF-HI band is missing?

Thank you,
RangerDave

One of those "cycle the power" recommendations, but be sure the tuner is set for AIR and not CABLE. Also, are you sure that you're talking about the actual RF channels used or what they are labelled as (e.g., 2-1)? Remember that those are not necessarily the same anymore.

Run a report from TVFool.com with your exact address for assistance in debugging your situation. The Signal Analysis FAQ they provide is excellent.

Thank you for the reply, Dave Loudin.

The tuner is set for AIR, as the TV can tune 2-1, 4-1, 4-2, 5-1, 5-2, 5-3, then skips to 22-1. I cannot tune 7-x, 9-x, 11-x or 13-x. They are missing in the channel lineup display. I don't really care about channels 14-x to 21-x missing.

According to this website, http://transition.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ the missing channels are virtual channels operating in the VHF-HI band range.

I live 2 miles north of my parents and am able to receive all channels without any problems. I'm just curious as to why some channels are missing. Is there a problem with the antenna, the cable, a connector? Any ideas?

Thank you for the reply, Dave Loudin.

The tuner is set for AIR, as the TV can tune 2-1, 4-1, 4-2, 5-1, 5-2, 5-3, then skips to 22-1. I cannot tune 7-x, 9-x, 11-x or 13-x. They are missing in the channel lineup display. I don't really care about channels 14-x to 21-x missing.

According to this website, http://transition.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/ the missing channels are virtual channels operating in the VHF-HI band range.

I live 2 miles north of my parents and am able to receive all channels without any problems. I'm just curious as to why some channels are missing. Is there a problem with the antenna, the cable, a connector? Any ideas?

What is your antenna?

It's either UHF-only or the VHF section is non-operational due to some fault.

The tuner is set for AIR, as the TV can tune 2-1, 4-1, 4-2, 5-1, 5-2, 5-3, then skips to 22-1. I cannot tune 7-x, 9-x, 11-x or 13-x. They are missing in the channel lineup display. I don't really care about channels 14-x to 21-x missing.


Channels 7, 9, 11, and 13 are actually on VHF RF frequencies. All the others including 2.1, 4.x and 5.x are on UHF. But KTTV has 11.2 coming from a UHF frequency and you aren't getting that?

11.2 comes from 13, not from a UHF frequency.

- Trip

11.2 comes from 13, not from a UHF frequency.

- Trip

Ah, my goof. Thanks.

I seem to be missing 7-18. This is in the VHF-HI band area.


VHF-HI is 7-13. UHF TV starts with 14, but the lower UHF channels are assigned to public safety in the LA DMA. The lowest UHF TV channel in LA is 18, which you should be getting since you're getting all the other UHF channels. Maybe that one is weak in your location. 2-5 are being broadcast on UHF frequencies, which is why you are getting them as well.

It's either UHF-only or the VHF section is non-operational due to some fault.

I agree with ProjectSHO89. It sounds like you're not getting any VHF reception with that antenna.

Thank you for all the replies. I guess I will have to get out the big ladder and climb up on the 2nd story roof to check out the antenna for any possible damage before replacing it.

RangerDave

Thank you for all the replies. I guess I will have to get out the big ladder and climb up on the 2nd story roof to check out the antenna for any possible damage before replacing it.

RangerDave

Can you post a picture of the antenna?

Hello Ennui -

I don't think I have enough posts to this forum to post a pic of the antenna. It's your basic VHF/UHF antenna with long horizontal oriented v-shaped elements on the boom for VHF and the shorter elements spread top and bottom at the end for UHF. The overall length is about 8-feet, I believe. There are probably 60+ total elements on the antenna. I live 2 miles closer to Mt Wilson and get all my stations with a 5-foot boom VHF/UHF antenna with half the number of elements. That's why I don't understand why my parent's TV isn't pulling in all the stations. Obviously something is wrong, so I'll get the ladder out and visually inspect the antenna and cable hookup for anomolies. It's been on the roof for 20 years, so maybe it's just time for a new antenna. They have Verizon FIOS w/DVR service, so they are receiving the missing stations. I'd just like to have the OTA setup working normally for them so they don't complain in the future.

Thanks again for all the replies.
RangerDave

RF27 is now active. Same 4 channels as RF25 and maps to channel 25. So I now have two each of channel 25.1 thru 25.4.

RF27 is now active. Same 4 channels as RF25 and maps to channel 25. So I now have two each of channel 25.1 thru 25.4.Yep, my DTV Pal DVR picked this up as well. Not channels I would watch though. Heh.

Obviously something is wrong, so I'll get the ladder out and visually inspect the antenna and cable hookup for anomolies. It's been on the roof for 20 years, so maybe it's just time for a new antenna.

Be sure to check all the terminations, inside and out, and the balun. It may be something as simple as that. After 20 years I'd probably just re-terminate anyway.

Any recommendations on the antenna that can be easily returned if it fails?

FYI if you missed them earlier and new ones (in front of the house's garage and behind the tree left of the neighbor's house):

KABC7, KTTV11, and 31.x (KVMD; best and indoor and in out front of kitchen to face a tree left of neighbor's house to Mt. Wilson's direction.

No height entered: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d40330909db0c9f
25 ft.: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86cb35bdb459
40 ft.: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86ddb20485e8

Photos.:
http://i.imgur.com/q7LS4.jpg (antennaweb)
http://i.imgur.com/KWz13.gif (location on Google Maps)
http://i.imgur.com/LTao8.jpg (aerial shot of the rooftop -- note the existing satellite dish from the previous home owner)
http://i.imgur.com/uRTeb.jpg (zoomed out 45 degrees aerial shot with house on the bottom right corner)
http://i.imgur.com/vXboD.jpg (Google Earth's elevation shot of Mt. Wilson and home)
http://i.imgur.com/seYcH.jpg (Street View of trees in front of the house facing Mt. Wilson's direction)
http://i.imgur.com/XThYd.jpg (Street View of more trees on west side of the house)

FYI new datas:
Someone told me to look up Google Earth (GE) with its overlays. I forgot about those from years ago that I downloaded and installed a few years ago. I loaded up old GE and explored the new home location. Yikes, I think that looks bad (blue or no colors): http://i.imgur.com/lbqXV.jpg ... I assume blue is bad? :( Also, I noticed GE said 967 feet for its elevation.

Also, is http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11646220 from Costco as an outdoor/attic antenna?

I visited the place (outside only) this morning again and I noticed this tower in the short NE distance: http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/33774086.jpg ... I wonder if one could place TV antenna up there? Or maybe it's for mobile phones? T-Mobile phones' signals were very high. Hmm!

http://www.antennasearch.com/sitestart.asp?sourcepagename=antennachecktowerreview&getpagename=pgtowerdetail_fcc&cmdrequest=getpage&ipos=1&registration_number=1013567 ... A radio transmitter for a small college?FYI, I just found out that this tower acts as a translator for KVMD station. That explains why I can easily get channel 31.x OTA with a digital portal TV with single rabbit ear (not two ears) antenna. It is only about half of a mile! Thanks to http://forum.tvfool.com/showthread.php?p=20635 for the research.

I wished all stations would bring translators over here. [grin]

Does anyone know of a good house antennae to use like in the attic that is returnable easily like at local Best Buy, Fry's Electronics, Costco, Walmart, Radio Shack, Sears, and other stores?

Costco only had one, very low gain TV Antenna...ferget it.

BestBuy's best choice was RCA ANT741, but it was way overpriced.

Walmart also carries RCA ANT741, on sale now for $30. It's about 36 x 36-inches,
with medium Gain in both Hi-VHF (Ch7-13) and UHF Bands. It's a HUGE
leap forward from Rabbit Ears and might be all you need.....
Use their Brick&Mortar Stock Checker:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/RCA-Suburban-Mini-Yagi-Digital-Outdoor-Antenna-with-Mast/10828410

Although RCA doesn't provide specs, I've modeled it enough to see that it's
about the SAME as the Winegard HD7000R, a large Ch2-69 model from which
it was derived by shortening the VHF elements to delete Ch2-6+FM performance:
http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/HD7000R.pdf

==================================================
If ANT-751 doesn't do the job [perhaps too much loss in your attic], there
are several higher Gain antennas to chose from:

Fry's: For BOTH Hi-VHF and UHF Band coverage, I would chose CM4228HD,
although price is more than TRIPLE that of the ANT-751, Hi-VHF Gain would be
about the same but much higher Gain for UHF. If Hi-VHF is still a problem,
you could add a hi-gain Hi-VHF only antenna, such as YA-1713 or Y10-7-13.
BTW: If Ch9 is a problem, you might first try the RF Combiner Mod:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl

CM4228HD is about $100, with certainly higher UHF performance
than the Combo antennas from Channel Master or Winegard....which
could be difficult to mount in the desired direction, depending on the attic....
But if that is your preference, Fry's MIGHT carry the smaller Hi-VHF/UHF
CM-2018 ($70) or W-G HD7694P ($60) or somewhat longer HD7697P ($100).
[MONSTER Ch2-69 C-M Advantage are WAY TOO BIG....and no longer need Ch2-6.]

Costco only had one, very low gain TV Antenna...ferget it.

BestBuy's best choice was RCA ANT741, but it was way overpriced.

Walmart also carries RCA ANT741, on sale now for $30. It's about 36 x 36-inches,
with medium Gain in both Hi-VHF (Ch7-13) and UHF Bands. It's a HUGE
leap forward from Rabbit Ears and might be all you need.....
Use their Brick&Mortar Stock Checker:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/RCA-Suburban-Mini-Yagi-Digital-Outdoor-Antenna-with-Mast/10828410

Although RCA doesn't provide specs, I've modeled it enough to see that it's
about the SAME as the Winegard HD7000R, a large Ch2-69 model from which
it was derived by shortening the VHF elements to delete Ch2-6+FM performance:
http://www.winegarddirect.com/pdf/HD7000R.pdf

==================================================
If ANT-751 doesn't do the job [perhaps too much loss in your attic], there
are several higher Gain antennas to chose from:

Fry's: For BOTH Hi-VHF and UHF Band coverage, I would chose CM4228HD,
although price is more than TRIPLE that of the ANT-751, Hi-VHF Gain would be
about the same but much higher Gain for UHF. If Hi-VHF is still a problem,
you could add a hi-gain Hi-VHF only antenna, such as YA-1713 or Y10-7-13.
BTW: If Ch9 is a problem, you might first try the RF Combiner Mod:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/8bayrefl

CM4228HD is about $100, with certainly higher UHF performance
than the Combo antennas from Channel Master or Winegard....which
could be difficult to mount in the desired direction, depending on the attic....
But if that is your preference, Fry's MIGHT carry the smaller Hi-VHF/UHF
CM-2018 ($70) or W-G HD7694P ($60) or somewhat longer HD7697P ($100).
[MONSTER Ch2-69 C-M Advantage are WAY TOO BIG....and no longer need Ch2-6.]Thank you for the detailed list!

RCA ANT-751 (not ANT-741 since not found) = $29.54 (Walmart; out of stock), $79.99 (Fry's Electronics), and $79.99 (Best Buy)
Channel Master/CM-2018 = $58 (Walmart)
Winegard HD7694P = $59.99 (Fry's Electronics)
Winegard HD7697P = $99.99 (Fry's Electronics)

ChannelMaster Advantage are too big? Some of them don't look big: http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_query=ChannelMaster+Advantage ... And prices are decent.

Someone suggested Winegard HD7084P antenna, but $169.99. Is it worth trying that one too? :( Anything from Radio Shack?

Sorry about the typo...it's RCA ANT-751, not 741.
BTW: You can have it shipped to your local Walmart for no extra charge
and return it to the store for refund if you are not satisfied:
http://www.walmart.com/cp/Returns-Policy/538459

It's becoming more and more difficult to find antenna specs from the manu's.
Here is C-M's 2008 Catalog, with specs for all antennas summarized on pg6:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cm2008.pdf
More info found at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

Note smallest Advantage (CM-3016) is 83.6-in WIDE...others 95-in.
That makes it even more difficult to ALIGN in-between the braces in a typical attic.

Also note that C-M does NOT provide Gain specs for their new CM-5xxx series.
Since they're new, they cost a lot more....and I didn't see any on Fry's website.
Also note that Fry's in-house selection at OUR stores is very limited and seems
to change from visit to visit....but they always seem to have obsolete Advantages....

I thought we were discussing an upgrade from your indoor antenna,
rather than the biggest, MONSTER antenna that belongs outdoors on a mast.

Spec sheet for W-G HD7084P et. al. can be found here. It's 110-in WIDE, 131-in BOOM
and 25.5-in TALL, with less UHF Gain than compact CM4228 and about same Hi-VHF:
http://www.winegard.com/offair/hdtv-outdoor-antennas.php

CM4228HD cost is lower...even if you add YA-1713 or Y10-7-13 Hi-VHF Hi-Gain antenna.
Although it's difficult to find unequivocal "proof", I believe the distributed bow-ties
also have an advantage in the multipath frequently encountered in attics....some of
them might be in a NULL, and others probably NOT....

=======================================================
BTW: I should also mention an easy to construct DIY project, the M4 Super-4-Bay Bowtie:
http://m4antenna.eastmasonvilleweather.com/index.html [Note partial "kits".]
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/m4swp
The whisker length is optimized for the new UHF Band, rather than the older 4-Bay
and 8-Bay antennas (e.g. CM4221HD and CM4228HD) which were optimized for the
OLD UHF Band, resulting in loss of Gain in the lower UHF Band. The Reflector in the
M4 is 36-in wide x 40-in tall, which optimizes performance in the Hi-VHF Band much
better then the narrower Reflectors in the CM4221HD and CM4228HD. If you compare
Gain curves you will be surprised to see that the M4 Super-4-Bay Bowtie greatly
exceeds the performance of ANY commercial 8-Bay antenna for both UHF & Hi-VHF.
AND it's far more compact than ANY of the other Combo Hi-VHF/UHF Antennas....
It could even be put on a rotator in the attic if that is desired....

Sorry about the typo...it's ANT-751, not 741.

It's becoming more and more difficult to find antenna specs from the manu's.
Here is C-M's 2008 Catalog, with specs for all antennas summarized on pg6.
More info found at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

Note smallest Advantage (CM-3016) is 83.6-in WIDE...others 95-in.
That makes it even more difficult to ALIGN in-between the braces in a typical attic.
Also note that C-M does NOT provide Gain specs for their new CM-5xxx series.

I thought we were discussing an upgrade from your indoor antenna,
rather than the biggest, MONSTER antenna that belongs outdoors on a mast.

Spec sheet for W-G HD7084P et. al. can be found here. It's 110-in WIDE, 131-in BOOM
and 25.5-in TALL, with less UHF Gain than compact CM4228 and about same Hi-VHF.
Even if you added a YA-1713 or Y10-7-13 Hi-VHF Hi-Gain antenna, cost is lower:
http://www.winegard.com/offair/hdtv-outdoor-antennas.phpUpgrade? Sure if you want to but maybe it is better to start from scratch for the new place. I am sure the attic is big enough. If not, then roof. :(

phildaant, are you talking about the place with the really crummy TVFool signal analysis? If so, you should not waste your time with an attic install. Mt. Wilson is shadowed by a hill, so you will be hard-pressed to get anything but some scattered VHF channels from that site. You might be better off pointing a VHF antenna at 340 degrees and a UHF/VHF antenna at 150 degrees to try for the San Diego stations. They have better NMs at your location!

phildaant, are you talking about the place with the really crummy TVFool signal analysis? If so, you should not waste your time with an attic install.Yes, that's correct. OK, let's try roof top types then.

A full-band antenna like the ChannelMaster CM-30xx series or the Winegard 7084 is a terrible choice for the 90% of the country that isn't trying to pick up a low VHF station. All that extra size is for the low VHF elements and at best does nothing for the high VHF/UHF channels, and at worst significantly degrades performance compared to a high VHF/UHF only antenna like the CM-20xx series or the HD769 series.

Yes, that's correct. OK, let's try roof top types then.
My recommendations remain same if roof mounted...highest Gain AND lowest Cost:
CM4228HD or DIY M4 Super-4-Bay with (optional, if needed) YA-1713 or Y10-7-13,
with HLSJ VHF/UHF Diplexer/Combiner.

You might also want to add A-D 91XG UHF antenna to that list, but I don't think
it is available at a Brick&Mortar, although you might find W-G HD-9032 UHF Yagi
at a specialty/installation shop. If you are willing to shop on-line, add Antennacraft
HBU-xx series to the list of available medium Gain Hi-VHF/UHF Combo antennas:
http://www.antennacraft.com/Antennas/AntennasHBU.html
They might even be carried/ordered at some of your local Radio Shack stores...

My recommendations remain same if roof mounted:
CM4228HD or DIY M4 Super-4-Bay with (optional, if needed) YA-1713 or Y10-7-13,
with HLSJ VHF/UHF Diplexer/Combiner.

You might also want to add A-D 91XG UHF antenna to that list, but I don't think
it is available at a Brick&Mortar, although you might find W-G HD-9032 UHF Yagi
at a specialty/installation shop. If you are willing to shop on-line, add Antennacraft
HBU-xx series to the list of available Hi-VHF/UHF Combo antennas:
http://www.antennacraft.com/Antennas/AntennasHBU.html
They might even be carried/ordered at some of your local Radio Shack stores...Thanks. Darn, Frys doesn't carry CM4228HD. I will keep looking... Maybe I should try my old DB2, from 2005, to see if it can get anything better than the single rabbit ear antenna.

Call around to several different Fry's stores...and inquire re WHEN they expect more stock....

How about a DIY M4 using Aluminum Foil covered Cardboard...just to see what you get????
You might get some construction tips in the fol. fairly long thread:
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=100137

PS: DB-2 has low-moderate UHF Gain...and even some Hi-VHF Gain, but directed to the REAR:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/2bayrefl/addb2refl

If you are willing to shop on-line, add Antennacraft
HBU-xx series to the list of available medium Gain Hi-VHF/UHF Combo antennas:
http://www.antennacraft.com/Antennas/AntennasHBU.html
They might even be carried/ordered at some of your local Radio Shack stores...There are three models according to http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=antennacraft&origkw=Antennacraft&sr=1 , but only two are in my local Radio Shack stores:
33: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3740646
55: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3928468

Should I try this 55 model for the most expensive and powerful one?

Also, I uploaded three photographs/photos. of the upcoming house at http://zimage.com/~ant/MiCasa2/ from this morning after 7:43 AM PST. They show two NW views (about 333 degrees on a very old compass [yea, I brought one]). As you can see with two of them, there is a big hill with many trees from the ground level. Also, this is the same view I pointed at to get some KABC7 and KTTV11 with a portable DTV with its single rabbit ear antenna (horizontal). Obviously, channel 31.x worked easily here the best due to its half mile to its NE translator near by. I also took a shot of the house roof. All three were from the ground level in front of the garage.

While not THE MOST POWERFUL outdoor antenna, the HBU-55 is
Antennacraft's top of the line model. Unfortunately, their spec sheet
only stipulates a single Gain value in each of two bands:
UHF=9.0 dBd=11.2 dBi and Hi-VHF=9.3 dBd=11.5 dBi.

Ken Nist modeled HBU-44, w specs UHF=10.4 dBi and Hi-VHF=10.4 dBi,
so we would expect HBU-55 would be roughly 0.8 dBi higher for UHF
and 1.1 dBi higher for Hi-VHF.:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

HBU-44 Orange (EE) curve reaches a max of about 12.5 dBi at 700 MHz,
falling off to about 8 dBi at 470 MHz...HBU-55 should be about 0.8 dBi better.
Note separate comparison chart for UHF NET Gain of Combo antennas, where
CM4228HD is the clear winner, with CM-3671B second and HD7698P third.

However, NONE of these even come close to the performance of mclapp's M4,
providing 13.5 dBi on Ch14, rising to 15.5 dBi on the highest channels:
http://photos.imageevent.com/holl_ands/multibay/4bayrefl/m4swp//PerDwgsM4_%209_5x9_BowSwp_2.0in_DblAngldRefl_4_5in%20-%20UHF%20Raw%20Gain.jpg
Which is just shy of the outstanding UHF performance for 91XG and DAT-75.
Gain is one reason we tend to recommend separate UHF and Hi-VHF antennas,
the second reason being they end up being SHORTER, so less twisting in the wind.

In the Hi-VHF Comparison chart, CM-3671B is the clear winner.
Ken Nist did not include A-C Y10-7-13, which 4nec2 model
revealed a Hi-VHF Gain of 7-12.3 dBi, putting it in second place.
I'm going to guesstimate that HBU-55 would be in second or third place.
HD7698P, HBU-44 and YA-1713 essentially tied for fourth place.
All of these are within +/- 1 or 2 dB, so differences are fairly small.

So my recommendation remains the BEST: CM4228HD (or DIY M4)
and either YA-1713 or Y10-7-13. But there are several MONSTER
Combos that are almost as good....including HBU-55, which has
145-in Boom, 51.5-in Width and 32-in Height.

DTV signals will flow right through the sparse leaf networks in your
trees and will diffract around the fairly narrow tree trunks:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html

While not THE MOST POWERFUL outdoor antenna, the HBU-55 is
Antennacraft's top of the line model. Unfortunately, their spec sheet
only stipulates a single Gain value in each of two bands:
UHF=9.0 dBd=11.2 dBi and Hi-VHF=9.3 dBd=11.5 dBi.

Ken Nist modeled HBU-44, w specs UHF=10.4 dBi and Hi-VHF=10.4 dBi,
so we would expect HBU-55 would be roughly 0.8 dBi higher for UHF
and 1.1 dBi higher for Hi-VHF.:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

HBU-44 Orange (EE) curve reaches a max of about 12.5 dBi at 700 MHz,
falling off to about 8 dBi at 470 MHz...HBU-55 should be about 0.8 dBi better.
Note separate comparison chart for UHF NET Gain of various Combo antennas,
where CM4228HD is the clear winner, with CM-3671B second and
HD7698P third.

In the Hi-VHF Comparison chart, CM-3671B is the clear winner.
Ken Nist did not include A-C Y10-7-13, which 4nec2 model
revealed a Hi-VHF Gain of 7-12.3 dBi, putting it in second place.
I'm going to guess that HBU-55 would be in second or third place.
HD7698P, HBU-44 and YA-1713 essentially tied for fourth place.
All of these are within +/- 1 or 2 dB, so differences are fairly small.

So my recommendation remains the BEST: CM4228HD (or DIY M4)
and either YA-1713 or Y10-7-13. But there are several MONSTER
Combos that are almost as good....including HBU-55, which has
145-in Boom, 51.5-in Width and 32-in Height.

DTV signals will flow right through the sparse leaf networks in your
trees and will diffract around the fairly narrow tree trunks:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.htmlOK, we will probably try HBU-55 from the local Radio Shack store.

Be prepared to aim that sucker towards San Diego. I'm hoping otherwise, but I doubt you'll get a sniff of stations like KCBS.

Hi again.

The house has a big backyard and it is a slope of a hill with an open area (no trees). Is it possible to build a tower for an antenna that is higher than the trees surrounding my home properties. I could go up more the hill until the neighbor's fence, but the trees would be in the way. How high can I go without breaking any laws (FAA?)? Can I go high as the tallest tree? If not, then it will have to be on the house with its chimney (tall point on it). Let me know if I should take photographs/photos. of the backyard to show what I mean.

Thank you in advance. :)

Hi again.

The house has a big backyard and it is a slope of a hill with an open area (no trees). Is it possible to build a tower for an antenna that is higher than the trees surrounding my home properties. I could go up more the hill until the neighbor's fence, but the trees would be in the way. How high can I go without breaking any laws (FAA?)? If not, then it will have to be on the house with its chimney (tall point on it). Let me know if I should take photographs/photos. of the backyard to show what I mean.

Thank you in advance. :)

FAA = in general 1 foot high above ground for every 100 feet from runway (200ft tower, >20000 ft from runway (nearly 4 miles))

FCC = 200 feet without special permit (and lighting, etc.)

Your city/county = areas with serious restriction like home-owners associations, no higher than house or a few feet above house if any tower allowed; medium restricted say 35' without a permit; less restricted areas then see limits above.

These are general and don't take as the rule in your area.

/Dan

OTARD allows for a "mast" up to 12' above the roofline without any local permits. I'm not sure if a separate tower counts as a mast or not.

RF27 is now active. Same 4 channels as RF25 and maps to channel 25. So I now have two each of channel 25.1 thru 25.4.

Now RF25 & RF27 are both mapping to 27.1-27.4 No more virtual 25

Now RF25 & RF27 are both mapping to 27.1-27.4 No more virtual 25


Yes, there used to be low power analog stations on both chs. 25 and 27. I tuned to ch. 27, halfway expecting to find no signal. But instead I did find the four subchannels you indicated. Both yesterday and today, I found the station to be too weak here to provide a steady signal, and it rapidly cuts in and out. The four subchannels are identified as follows:

27.1 HSN
27.2 TV20
27.3 NEXT-TV
27.4 KSFV

Interestingly but not surprisingly, 27.4 carries the identical program material as the low power analog station on ch. 6, identified as KSFV-CA. Channel 6 audio can also be picked up on FM 87.5 MHz.

There is now a channel on 13.2 called Bounce.

There is now a channel on 13.2 called Bounce.What's on it? ;)

What's on it? ;)

Programming primarily for the older African American audience. Google Bounce TV for more detail.

Yeah it took me 5 seconds looking at the tivo guide to figure out Bounce = BET clone with a accent on syndicated programing and movie re runs. And the powers to be at Luken com flip RTV back to the 8.1 channel slot any how Im waiting to see what spring changes will come to 56.3 Me Tv line up. Have a super groooovie weekend everyone;) :p:cool::)

Programming primarily for the older African American audience. Google Bounce TV for more detail.Thanks. :)

Hey guys. I was finally able to fix my rooftop antenna today. Every channel is coming in great except for 28-1. The signal jump from 100% to 0% on my bedroom TV--a cheapo Sharp LCD TV with built-in tuner. However, when viewing 28-1 on my direcTV receiver I am able to get a steady 100% signal. Anybody know whats causing the fluctuation on my Sharp? Is it the tuner?

I'm getting about 145 stations on my tv when I scan. I have an old Radio Shack vhf/uhf antenna up on the roof. Im pointed at Mount Wilson my question is. Im trying to pick up that PBJ ch 10-1 I only get about 3 bars of signal strength .

The antenna is pretty old its been up there since 96 do you think replacing it will help me pick up that ch. Mind you I get 92 to 99 on most ch .

Hey guys. I was finally able to fix my rooftop antenna today. Every channel is coming in great except for 28-1. The signal jump from 100% to 0% on my bedroom TV--a cheapo Sharp LCD TV with built-in tuner. However, when viewing 28-1 on my direcTV receiver I am able to get a steady 100% signal. Anybody know whats causing the fluctuation on my Sharp? Is it the tuner?

For about the last year, 28.1 has been weak off and on here. Used to be solid. 24.1 and 50.1 are more solid.

Hey guys. I was finally able to fix my rooftop antenna today. Every channel is coming in great except for 28-1. The signal jump from 100% to 0% on my bedroom TV--a cheapo Sharp LCD TV with built-in tuner. However, when viewing 28-1 on my direcTV receiver I am able to get a steady 100% signal. Anybody know whats causing the fluctuation on my Sharp? Is it the tuner?

No, it is not the tuner. KCET is located in a poor location on the eastern side of Mt. Wilson and has only good access to the east and south. I have also observed similar fluctuations on KCET, but I am now almost always able to get a solid signal. This was not always the case in the past, however. Other UHF stations also located on the east side of Mt. Wilson are KLCS 58 and KTBN 40, and these are much worse than KCET, especially the latter, at least at my location.

The fluctuations are probably caused by multipath, i.e., you are getting an indirect, reflected signal which is interfering with the direct signal, which may be attenuated due to obstructions in the direct path. Incidentally, you can check this out using TVFool using your exact location. In the 'Path' column, you will see 'LOS' if there are no obstructions, or '1Edge', '2Edge', etc. if there are.

One final note: VHF stations KTTV 11 and KCOP 13 are also in this unfavorable east Mt. Wilson location, but the much longer wavelengths of VHF mitigate this problem, since the signals can propagate easily around these obstructions through diffraction. As a result their signals have always been very stable.

Hey guys. I was finally able to fix my rooftop antenna today. Every channel is coming in great except for 28-1. The signal jump from 100% to 0% on my bedroom TV--a cheapo Sharp LCD TV with built-in tuner. However, when viewing 28-1 on my direcTV receiver I am able to get a steady 100% signal. Anybody know whats causing the fluctuation on my Sharp? Is it the tuner?

Some tuners are better than others, better able to handle multipath signals. If you are splitting the signal to your Sharp and DirecTV, the signal may be too weak for the Sharp, remove the splitter and try running a direct line to the Sharp to see if that's the problem.

Some tuners are better than others, better able to handle multipath signals. If you are splitting the signal to your Sharp and DirecTV, the signal may be too weak for the Sharp, remove the splitter and try running a direct line to the Sharp to see if that's the problem.Also, older tuners (e.g., from 2005) don't do well compared to the newer ones.

I'm getting about 145 stations on my tv when I scan. I have an old Radio Shack vhf/uhf antenna up on the roof. Im pointed at Mount Wilson my question is. Im trying to pick up that PBJ ch 10-1 I only get about 3 bars of signal strength .

The antenna is pretty old its been up there since 96 do you think replacing it will help me pick up that ch. Mind you I get 92 to 99 on most ch .


Well Ive got a fairly new rca antenna I live in north San Gabriel 91775 zip code and have line of site of Mt Wilson and I have loads of audio sync issues on 8.1 and 10.1 which are both Luken communications channels and all of the Luken channels have a fairly weak signal due to a transmitter move debacle in second quarter of 2011. So honestly no I dont think a new antenna is the issue or help with those channels.

KOCE is no longer being simulcast on 31.4. Announcement screen says it has moved to 17.1. Since I'm not getting any 17.1 I wonder where that is?

KODG-LD Palm Springs.

- Trip

Ah, ok thanks. Sometimes the main channel doesn't come in here but 31.4 did.

Ah, ok thanks. Sometimes the main channel doesn't come in here but 31.4 did.I think all 31.x channels should work if you can get 31.4.

True, what I meant was 50.x sometimes does not come in, where 31.x usually would. It's a combination of a tree just east of me that partially blocks the view of Mt Wilson, the weather, and a rusty 20 year old outdoor antenna that's missing a piece or two.

True, what I meant was 50.x sometimes does not come in, where 31.x usually would. It's a combination of a tree just east of me that partially blocks the view of Mt Wilson, the weather, and a rusty 20 year old outdoor antenna that's missing a piece or two.Ah. Channel 31 has a translator transmitter in La Habra Heights. So maybe you're picking up from there.

True, what I meant was 50.x sometimes does not come in, where 31.x usually would. It's a combination of a tree just east of me that partially blocks the view of Mt Wilson, the weather, and a rusty 20 year old outdoor antenna that's missing a piece or two.

Oh ok if your antenna is damaged with missing elements and heavy oxidization/rust a new one will help a lot. When my parents re roofed their house three years ago I got them best rated radio shack for about 65.00 it looks like Channel Master CM 3016 . It was about 200% improvement from their old rusted broken down antenna that had about 80% of its elements bent or broken off. They went from tons of audio drop out and video freezes and barely 20 channels to perfect video and sound and now find so many channels Ive got a good 5 minute job with the channel skip screen to eliminate all the foreign language channels that drives my dad bats every time I rescan for wanted tv channels LOL. Plus the newer antennas have better rust and corrosion and will last longer 15 to 20 years easy or until the monkeys at the FCC decide to change the OTA tv bans again. So in that case a new antenna could help you a lot.:)

Oh ok if your antenna is damaged with missing elements and heavy oxidization/rust a new one will help a lot. When my parents re roofed their house three years ago I got them best rated radio shack for about 65.00 it looks like Channel Master CM 3016 . It was about 200% improvement from their old rusted broken down antenna that had about 80% of its elements bent or broken off. They went from tons of audio drop out and video freezes and barely 20 channels to perfect video and sound and now find so many channels Ive got a good 5 minute job with the channel skip screen to eliminate all the foreign language channels that drives my dad bats every time I rescan for wanted tv channels LOL. Plus the newer antennas have better rust and corrosion and will last longer 15 to 20 years easy or until the monkeys at the FCC decide to change the OTA tv bans again. So in that case a new antenna could help you a lot.:)How old was the old one? I wonder if they last longer if you could put them in the attic.

How old was the old one? I wonder if they last longer if you could put them in the attic.

My parents old antenna was 20+ years old and with the superior signal strength of the old ota tv broadcast bans the fact that the antenna was old ,wind damaged and rusty it really didn't matter most TVs in my parents house got great reception with the free stock rabbit ears you got with a set back in the day. With the new grossly inferior atsc standard yes the condition and setup of the antenna does matter a lot. (the ota atsc hdtv standard was designed by cable/satellite company lobbyists to reduce nation wide coverage OTA tv signals to force more people buy expensive and unnecessary pay tv coverage. (don't believe the cell phone company bs story) The atsc ota hdtv creation will go down as one of congress/fcc's great back eyes of greed and corruption at the expense of the average America.) With the new anti corrosion coatings that are on new modern antennas your looking at easily a 20 to 25 year lifespan maybe more if winds don't blow it down or fcc changes the OTA tv bands the antenna is fine outdoors. In fact any antenna will be considerably more effective outdoors with no construction effecting signal strength (i.e. walls and roof) . The primary reason for attic antenna installations is due to moronic home owners associations/apartments that ban outdoor antennas or if you live in extremely windy area. You'll find a new modern antenna outdoors correctly point at the signal source off the ground mounted to a chimney or a plumbing vent pipe (like at my parents house) on a 5ft pole will work miracles for your OTA hdtv reception. Come to think of it my parents "new " antenna is almost five years old now and its as bright and shinny as the day roofing company installed after the new roof was finished.;)

Well I notice a new channel on my great old Vizio vx32L tuner it called 56.5 VPower. Hmm I wonder if anyone has info on the ownership and what type of programing there planning on broadcasting (hopefully English) ? ;)

Anytime you see a channel that starts with V, it usually means Vietnamese which I see it is. Looks like there have been a bunch of new Asian channels lately as the never-ending supply of Chinese channels continues. I thought NEXT-TV would be it since it seems like it is based on a minor channel in Taiwan. At least the one on 31.4 is Cantonese. That is different than the usual Mandarin.

31.3 FILAM
http://www.filamtv.com/index.html

31.4 GDTV (Guangdong TV America)
http://wcetvdigital.com/Ch31_4/

31.10 TSTV
http://www.taishanmedia.com/

44.10 G&E
http://www.gestudio.us/index.php/en

Anytime you see a channel that starts with V, it usually means Vietnamese which I see it is. Looks like there have been a bunch of new Asian channels lately as the never-ending supply of Chinese channels continues. I thought NEXT-TV would be it since it seems like it is based on a minor channel in Taiwan. At least the one on 31.4 is Cantonese. That is different than the usual Mandarin.

31.3 FILAM
http://www.filamtv.com/index.html

31.4 GDTV (Guangdong TV America)
http://wcetvdigital.com/Ch31_4/

31.10 TSTV
http://www.taishanmedia.com/

44.10 G&E
http://www.gestudio.us/index.php/enToo bad they're not on satellite and cable TV services.

Anytime you see a channel that starts with V, it usually means Vietnamese which I see it is. Looks like there have been a bunch of new Asian channels lately as the never-ending supply of Chinese channels continues. I thought NEXT-TV would be it since it seems like it is based on a minor channel in Taiwan. At least the one on 31.4 is Cantonese. That is different than the usual Mandarin.

31.3 FILAM
http://www.filamtv.com/index.html

31.4 GDTV (Guangdong TV America)
http://wcetvdigital.com/Ch31_4/

31.10 TSTV
http://www.taishanmedia.com/

44.10 G&E
http://www.gestudio.us/index.php/en


Yep your right its a new Vietnamese station, funny two days ago I couldn't find zip on it doing a google search but today I found information linking it to kdoc 56 in Anaheim Ca. not too surprising sense Orange county has a large Vietnamese population.

KDOC used to have Pegasus TV, but I doubt there were that many horse lovers in Orange County. My guess is that for the most part, these station owners do not care who leases or what is on a subchannel. All that matters is that you pay them rent.

KDOC used to have Pegasus TV, but I doubt there were that many horse lovers in Orange County. My guess is that for the most part, these station owners do not care who leases or what is on a subchannel. All that matters is that you pay them rent.Haha. That went away fast. I want an ant TV channel. [grin]

KDOC used to have Pegasus TV, but I doubt there were that many horse lovers in Orange County. My guess is that for the most part, these station owners do not care who leases or what is on a subchannel. All that matters is that you pay them rent.

Yes all $$$$$ is good lol. 56.4 now spanish .Pegasus had zero original programing, it was from all over world and mostly antique I think the newest show I saw was made in 2000 the bulk was 80's and 70's and man it had a accent on repeats. I'm shock it lasted as long as it did because the had zero commercials on it. I've been out a medical leave since January and no cable so when any new English language station pops up I check it out LOL;)

Hi!

Would today's cloudy, rainy, and cold weather be a bad day to test out new OTA antennae, indoor (e.g., attic)? Do they affect OTA feeds compared to clear and warmer weather?

Thank you in advance. :)

Yes all $$$$$ is good lol. 56.4 now spanish .Pegasus had zero original programing, it was from all over world and mostly antique I think the newest show I saw was made in 2000 the bulk was 80's and 70's and man it had a accent on repeats. I'm shock it lasted as long as it did because the had zero commercials on it. I've been out a medical leave since January and no cable so when any new English language station pops up I check it out LOL;)


Programs are expensive, so most likely only a network can afford shows that people would watch. However, almost all of the English ota networks except for music videos are already in the LA area. Hence, somebody will have to introduce new English ota broadcast networks before a subchannel in Socal can become an affiliate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_over-the-air_television_networks

Programs are expensive, so most likely only a network can afford shows that people would watch. However, almost all of the English ota networks except for music videos are already in the LA area. Hence, somebody will have to introduce new English ota broadcast networks before a subchannel in Socal can become an affiliate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_over-the-air_television_networksFantastic and interesting lists! :)

Hi!

Would today's cloudy, rainy, and cold weather be a bad day to test out new OTA antennae, indoor (e.g., attic)? Do they affect OTA feeds compared to clear and warmer weather?

Thank you in advance. :)
WET ROOFS will attenuate UHF (not VHF) signals by only 1-2 dB,
while WET TWINLEAD loss could be much higher...

Propagation loss through free space vs (intermittent) rain showers
is basically the SAME....but (mostly VHF) electrostatic noise could
increase plus a few more SPIKES due to lightning activity....

For extreme range LOS as well as 1Edge and 2Edge paths,
radio wave "bending" could be different...perhaps better...or worse.

And propagation via surface-wave "Tropo Duct" modes can be quite
different as the cooler rain degrades the duct (usually over warm water).

So it's hard to predict...but will "probably" be only a small difference...

Rain diminishes my ability to receive 24.x channels 65 miles away in the San Fernando Valley; which normally come into top quality.

PBS programming that I may miss on channel 50, I DVR on channel 24.1 in HDTV, since DirecTV only carries 24 in SD.

Or is it just me? Thank you in advance. :)

Is anyone else noticing KTLA 5.x signal being low?Or is it just me? Thank you in advance. :)

With all of the Los Angeles subscribers to DirecTV having lost KTLA-DT due to a retransmission consent negotiation with Tribune Broadcasting, more people are receiving the channel through OTA means.

Consequently, there is a cumulative drain on the power output from Mt. Wilson. :)

Hi!

Would today's cloudy, rainy, and cold weather be a bad day to test out new OTA antennae, indoor (e.g., attic)? Do they affect OTA feeds compared to clear and warmer weather?

Thank you in advance. :)

Hey there

as far as i know, rain fade doesnt effect terrestrial television signals like it does satellite signals.

stormy conditions can create problems for some or advantages for other depending on your path to the signals. my best reception readings are during wintertime stormy conditions. and the worst time for reception is summer when its sunny every day

With all of the Los Angeles subscribers to DirecTV having lost KTLA-DT due to a retransmission consent negotiation with Tribune Broadcasting, more people are receiving the channel through OTA means.

Consequently, there is a cumulative drain on the power output from Mt. Wilson. :)Eh?

Now that DirecTV and Tribune Broadcasting have reached an agreement and KTLA-DT is back on DirecTV, DirecTV must have turned off their large "signal-sucking" transducers aimed at the KTLA transmitter/antenna on Mt. Wilson.

Have you noticed a signal increase?

Now that DirecTV and Tribune Broadcasting have reached an agreement and KTLA-DT is back on DirecTV, DirecTV must have turned off their large "signal-sucking" transducers aimed at the KTLA transmitter/antenna on Mt. Wilson.

Have you noticed a signal increase?I didn't notice any increases on mine as of a few days ago. I will check again.

Now that DirecTV and Tribune Broadcasting have reached an agreement and KTLA-DT is back on DirecTV, DirecTV must have turned off their large "signal-sucking" transducers aimed at the KTLA transmitter/antenna on Mt. Wilson.

Have you noticed a signal increase?


I assume you are kidding!

Actually KTLA has always been very strong here, in fact the strongest station of all, according to TVFool. However, for the past two years, I have been getting severe multipath problems on that one station.

I assume you are kidding!

Actually KTLA has always been very strong here, in fact the strongest station of all, according to TVFool. However, for the past two years, I have been getting severe multipath problems on that one station.I am serious. I will check later this Easter weekend. I assume I don't need to rescan for KTLA 5.

With all of the Los Angeles subscribers to DirecTV having lost KTLA-DT due to a retransmission consent negotiation with Tribune Broadcasting, more people are receiving the channel through OTA means.

Consequently, there is a cumulative drain on the power output from Mt. Wilson. :)

Really that's a silly the reception of over the air signals is passive and a increase in number of receivers receiving the signal in a specific area has zero impact on the quality or strength of a ota broadcast. I'm not a radio engineer and I know that , how close, direction to and if there any obstacles in the way are going to have more effect on your reception not the number of receivers(i.e. # of TV sets turned on ) in the area. LOL:p

With all of the Los Angeles subscribers to DirecTV having lost KTLA-DT due to a retransmission consent negotiation with Tribune Broadcasting, more people are receiving the channel through OTA means.
Consequently, there is a cumulative drain on the power output from Mt. Wilson. :)

I always thought that if you have several antennas lined up in a row pointing at mount wilson that the very last antenna would get a weak signal since the antennas up front due to their gain and capture area (see Yagi) would leave a shadow behind them thus the last antenna sees very little. ;)

I always thought that if you have several antennas lined up in a row pointing at mount wilson that the very last antenna would get a weak signal since the antennas up front due to their gain and capture area (see Yagi) would leave a shadow behind them thus the last antenna sees very little. ;)[sighs at you guys and will confuse newbies in the future]

Is anyone else noticing KTLA 5.x signal being low? Or is it just me? Thank you in advance. :)

With all of the Los Angeles subscribers to DirecTV having lost KTLA-DT due to a retransmission consent negotiation with Tribune Broadcasting, more people are receiving the channel through OTA means.

Consequently, there is a cumulative drain on the power output from Mt. Wilson. :)

My source is the article "Clear Channel Operation" QST Magazine (the Journal of The Amateur Radio Relay League), April, 1962 edition, at page 40, where it says: "...an antenna picks up the signals radiated by others, and in doing so actually reduces the signal energy of that radiation in space by virtue of the resistive losses of the antenna system." ;)

I still venture that the KTLA-DT OTA signal is much higher, now that DirecTV is carrying KTLA again in Los Angeles...

You do realize the article was published in April 1962.

As I recall, it was released on the First of April...

I actually wanted to build the device described later in the article... I was 12!

Monitoring Times magazine, in the late 1990's, had an article concerning how many receivers would be required to null out a broadcast signal.

As I recall, it was released on the First of April...

I actually wanted to build the device described later in the article... I was 12!You should had posted that five days ago. [grin]

Monitoring Times magazine, in the late 1990's, had an article concerning how many receivers would be required to null out a broadcast signal.

Was it some fabulously large Dr. Evil-type number?

Was it some fabulously large Dr. Evil-type number?

It may have been. The article alluded to a DirectTV dispute and lots of viewers pulling a local broadcast signal out of thin air. [grin] In seriousness, what I remember of the article (a mailbag Q & A, I believe), the theory is justified, but almost unworkable.

I am serious. I will check later this Easter weekend. I assume I don't need to rescan for KTLA 5.Hmm, my DTV Pal DVR had no problems with KTLA 5.x, but it showed about 70% signal strength. My computer's old tuner PCI cards (from 2005) did not lock on, so I guess it is an age thing not handling well.

One of the mid-1960s April CQ Magazine articles dealt with how to use invisible paint to hide your huge tower/antenna systems :)

Sorry about the typo...it's RCA ANT-751, not 741...Here's a follow-up in trying to get OTA in my upcoming La Habra Heights, CA 90631 home which is in a difficult area.

Finally, I got a RCA ANT751R in the ground level's kitchen facing the opened screen patio. The assembled antenna part (did not attach the holder part) sat on a high chair for testing facing North direction with the big hill/small mountain in the way. It actually worked decently depending on the directions (N or NW; left or east of the neighbor's big house and their backyard's small mountain/giant hill across the street). The portable ATSC DTV was able to pick up from 70 to 103 channels (it varies a lot depending on what directions and stable the signals are). It got annoying when it kept losing channels like KCBS2, KNBC4, KCAL9, KTTV11, KCOP13, etc. :(

For examples: (N)orth (right side of the neighbor's house) seems to do well with these most wanted channels: KNBC4 and KSCI/LA18. NW (left side of the neighbor's house) seems to do well with these most wanted channels: KCBS2, KABC7, and 62 (unstable). Other channels seem to be OK (forgot to record their antenna directions): KTLA5, KCOP/UPN13, KOCE50, and KLCS58. We have not put this new antenna in the attic yet facing the north direction and side in the house, but I am hoping it will do better than on the ground level.

Also, we tried a powered Philips Digital Indoor TV antenna SDV7225T/27 (big rectangular dish + a single pole rabbit ear antenna facing to the right horizontally in NE direction) which did better than a single pole rabbit ear aneanna. Its results were various depending on directrions and close to the kitchen patio door screen (glass window opened):
Adjacent to the kitchen screen door and holding this antenna above 5' from the floor/ground with wanted channels:
KNBC4 (unstable), KABC7, KCAL9, KTTV11, KCOP13, KSCI/LA18, KCET28, and 62 (unstable).
A few inches behind the kitchen screen door on a high chair with these wanted channels:
4 (N; unstable), 7 (NW), 9 (NW), 11 (N and NW), 13 (NW), 28 (N), 50 (N, unstable), 58 (unstable), 62 (unstable),

FYI, my parents refused to get a roof-top antenna since they said it was too big and ugly, and didn't want to get someone on the roof to install. However, they were OK with this indoor attic antenna. :(

We'll try more later. Hopefully, the attic will be good! Happy Easter, everyone! :)

MeTV Hollywood announcement.
http://www.metvnetwork.com/files/KVME_Launch_ReleaseV4.pdf

Does anyone in the San Fernando Valley actually get this channel? It is a PBJ affiliate which shows classic cartoons. I'd love to be able to see it. with my rooftop antenna, KGTV 10.1 from San Diego comes in clear as a bell. I can get a KIIO-LD 10.5 which is foreign programming, Havas TV.

If KGTV is clear as a bell, then you have no chance of receiving KIIO-LD. Both are on RF channel 10.

- Trip

Havas TV still exists? I thought it is just all-infomericals now.

Does anyone in the San Fernando Valley actually get this channel? It is a PBJ affiliate which shows classic cartoons. I'd love to be able to see it. with my rooftop antenna, KGTV 10.1 from San Diego comes in clear as a bell. I can get a KIIO-LD 10.5 which is foreign programming, Havas TV.

Well I live in the San Gabriel ca and get both 10.1 and 8.1 (great improvement reception recently?) there both owned by Luken Communications. 10.1 shows some really obscure cartoons like Rocket robin hood and the bizarre Clutch Cargo which I haven't seen since I was a kid in the late 1960's , the new adventures of Pinocchio and Mr magoo along with new fair like the 80's He Man and She Ra . It fun flash back to childhood.;)

Luken doesn't own 8.1 or 10.1, but does provide some of the programming that Roy Mayhugh puts on them. :)

- Trip

Luken doesn't own 8.1 or 10.1, but does provide some of the programming that Roy Mayhugh puts on them. :)

- Trip

both channels show classic/retro tv programing . More correctly I should gave said Luken is the provider of the programing (ie like a property manager they run but don't own the channels).:);) Ether way there fun channels to watch.

If KGTV is clear as a bell, then you have no chance of receiving KIIO-LD. Both are on RF channel 10.

- Trip


I don't believe that is correct. My understanding is that KIIO is actually carried as a subchannel of KFLA on RF ch. 8, but is mapped to virtual ch 10-5.

It is interesting to note, however, that atmospheric conditions that are favorable to the reception of San Diego stations in my location are unfavorable to KFLA, and vice versa. San Diego stations come in best when the weather is warm with an inversion layer, while KFLA comes in best when it is cool and moist or overcast. And of course, KFMB and KFLA would "collide" on ch 8 if both were favored at the same time, and only the stronger would be receivable. Right now, howver, I am picking up neither of them, nor KIIO. But I am getting KGTV "clear as a bell".

I don't believe that is correct. My understanding is that KIIO is actually carried as a subchannel of KFLA on RF ch. 8, but is mapped to virtual ch 10-5.

It is interesting to note, however, that atmospheric conditions that are favorable to the reception of San Diego stations in my location are unfavorable to KFLA, and vice versa. San Diego stations come in best when the weather is warm with an inversion layer, while KFLA comes in best when it is cool and moist or overcast. And of course, KFMB and KFLA would "collide" on ch 8 if both were favored at the same time, and only the stronger would be receivable. Right now, howver, I am picking up neither of them, nor KIIO. But I am getting KGTV "clear as a bell".

I can pick up both KFLA 8 & KFMB 8. I have a North facing antenna for one & a South facing antenna for the other. I do not receive KIIO 10-1 thru 10-4.

I don't believe that is correct. My understanding is that KIIO is actually carried as a subchannel of KFLA on RF ch. 8, but is mapped to virtual ch 10-5.

That only applies to the 10-5 subchannel. 10-1 is on 10, not 8.

- Trip

That only applies to the 10-5 subchannel. 10-1 is on 10, not 8.

- Trip

I never knew that any subchannels of KIIO, other than 10-5, even existed. I have never received any of these other subchannels, even when KGTV was not coming in!

I never knew tKhat any subchannels of KIIO, other than 10-5, even existed. I have never received any of these other subchannels, even when KGTV was not coming in!

Not sure if KIIO increased their power or if it is due to a strong tropo, but I'm receiving it now for the 1st time. 10-1 is PBJ. KFLA has an add on 10-3 telling viewer that they are moving to a new fequency & to rescan your TV. Not sure if that is an old message from when they moved from RF55 to RF8, or if they are moving again?

FYI - KGTV has a sub channel. It is 10-2, The Cool TV, music videos.

Here's a follow-up in trying to get OTA in my upcoming La Habra Heights, CA 90631 home which is in a difficult area.

Finally, I got a RCA ANT751R in the ground level's kitchen facing the opened screen patio. The assembled antenna part (did not attach the holder part) sat on a high chair for testing facing North direction with the big hill/small mountain in the way. It actually worked decently depending on the directions (N or NW; left or east of the neighbor's big house and their backyard's small mountain/giant hill across the street). The portable ATSC DTV was able to pick up from 70 to 103 channels (it varies a lot depending on what directions and stable the signals are). It got annoying when it kept losing channels like KCBS2, KNBC4, KCAL9, KTTV11, KCOP13, etc. :(

...

FYI, my parents refused to get a roof-top antenna since they said it was too big and ugly, and didn't want to get someone on the roof to install. However, they were OK with this indoor attic antenna. :(

We'll try more later. Hopefully, the attic will be good! Happy Easter, everyone! :)Drats. Attic doesn't improve. Some channels are still missing like on the ground level's kitchen. I guess OTA is no good. We will be taking it down and returning it to get satellite/cable service. :(

Should have listened to me 2 months ago :D.

Should have listened to me 2 months ago :D.Well, we just wanted to see what happened. It was better than we expected, but not perfect. :(

Not sure if KIIO increased their power or if it is due to a strong tropo, but I'm receiving it now for the 1st time. 10-1 is PBJ. KFLA has an add on 10-3 telling viewer that they are moving to a new fequency & to rescan your TV. Not sure if that is an old message from when they moved from RF55 to RF8, or if they are moving again?

That's odd, because I am not getting a 10-3, even though KFLA is coming in here now just fine, including KIIO 10-5. With the weather cool and overcast this is to be expected. I wonder what the RF channel for this 10-3 would be, since it could not be 8-3 which is already there as "TUFF-TV". About a week ago, KFLA "disappeared" completely during the warm, sunny weather, and KGTV started coming in, but now it is gone. I have noticed this same pattern repeatedly many times before.

It is little wonder that I could not receive KFLA when it was transmitting on UHF and was (and is) at low power, and is not LOS but obstructed ("1Edge") here. BTW, I believe it was on RF 52, rather than 55.

Also, I noticed that KFLA added another channel designated as 8-7 around the first of the year, as I recall.


FYI - KGTV has a sub channel. It is 10-2, The Cool TV, music videos.

That's right. It also has a third subchannel, for some reason designated as 10-15. As I recall, both of these are in Spanish.

That's odd, because I am not getting a 10-3, even though KFLA is coming in here now just fine, including KIIO 10-5. With the weather cool and overcast this is to be expected. I wonder what the RF channel for this 10-3 would be, since it could not be 8-3 which is already there as "TUFF-TV". About a week ago, KFLA "disappeared" completely during the warm, sunny weather, and KGTV started coming in, but now it is gone. I have noticed this same pattern repeatedly many times before.

KII0 10-1 thru 10-4 is on RF10. KII0 10-5 is on RF8 KFLA

Drats. Attic doesn't improve. Some channels are still missing like on the ground level's kitchen. I guess OTA is no good. We will be taking it down and returning it to get satellite/cable service. :(


Well the RCA ANT751R works great for me because Mt Wilson is 25 miles as the crow flies and I have direct line of site.But for you live a considerably farther from the source a larger antenna would help gather the weaker signal. Honestly I believe a second shot with a larger antenna in the attic you'd get better results.

Well the RCA ANT751R works great for me because Mt Wilson is 25 miles as the crow flies and I have direct line of site.But for you live a considerably farther from the source a larger antenna would help gather the weaker signal. Honestly I believe a second shot with a larger antenna in the attic you'd get better results.Which larger indoor (e.g., attic) antennae from local retail stores then since my folks don't want an outdoor/roof top type since they said they are ugly, big, and complicated/complex. :(

Folks, let's go back to Phil's TVFool report. His results correspond pretty well with predictions. The hill is very effective in blocking UHF broadcasts while VHF broadcasts scatter over fairly well. There is no antenna big enough to fix this, attic or roof mounted.

Folks, let's go back to Phil's TVFool report. His results correspond pretty well with predictions. The hill is very effective in blocking UHF broadcasts while VHF broadcasts scatter over fairly well. There is no antenna big enough to fix this, attic or roof mounted.FYI from my previous posts and links:

No height entered: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d40330909db0c9f
25 ft. height entered: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86cb35bdb459
40 ft. height entered: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86ddb20485e8
http://i.imgur.com/q7LS4.jpg (antennaweb)
http://i.imgur.com/KWz13.gif (location on Google Maps)
http://i.imgur.com/LTao8.jpg (aerial shot of the rooftop -- note the existing satellite dish from the previous home owner)
http://i.imgur.com/uRTeb.jpg (zoomed out 45 degrees aerial shot with house on the bottom right corner)
http://i.imgur.com/vXboD.jpg (Google Earth's elevation shot of Mt. Wilson and home)
http://i.imgur.com/seYcH.jpg (Street View of trees in front of the house facing Mt. Wilson's direction)
http://i.imgur.com/XThYd.jpg (Street View of more trees on west side of the house)
http://zimage.com/~ant/MiCasa2/ for personal photos.
Elevation: 967 ft. according to Google Earth.

KII0 10-1 thru 10-4 is on RF10. KII0 10-5 is on RF8 KFLA

Oh, I see what happened now! You wrote, "KFLA has an add on 10-3" Your misspelling of the abbreviation for advertisement 'ad' as 'add' threw me a curve; I read it as, "KFLA has an add-on" namely 10-3..." rather than, "KFLA has an advertisement about 10-3...", which is what you really meant.

Anyway, I have never received anything on chs 10-1 through 10-4 even in the absence of any interference from KGTV. TVFool does list a KIIO-LD on ch 10, but it is way down in the darkest colored region with a "2Edge" designation.

Oh, I see what happened now! You wrote, "KFLA has an add on 10-3" Your misspelling of the abbreviation for advertisement 'ad' as 'add' threw me a curve; I read it as, "KFLA has an add-on" namely 10-3..." rather than, "KFLA has an advertisement about 10-3...", which is what you really meant.

Anyway, I have never received anything on chs 10-1 through 10-4 even in the absence of any interference from KGTV. TVFool does list a KIIO-LD on ch 10, but it is way down in the darkest colored region with a "2Edge" designation.

You are right, I had a typo.

One of the mid-1960s April CQ Magazine articles dealt with how to use invisible paint to hide your huge tower/antenna systems :)

shhhhh! I still use that paint!

FYI from my previous posts and links:...

Refresh my memory:

What are you trying to receive?

Refresh my memory:

What are you trying to receive?KCBS2, KNBC4, KTLA/CW5, KABC7, KCAL9, KTTV/FOX11, KCOP/UPN13, KSCI18, KCET28, 31, KOCE50, KLCS58, and 62.

KCBS2, KNBC4, KTLA/CW5, KABC7, KCAL9, KTTV/FOX11, KCOP/UPN13, KSCI18, KCET28, 31, KOCE50, KLCS58, and 62.

Looks like cable/satellite/telco may be your only options...

Unless you want to install a Slingbox at my house! :)

Looks like cable/satellite/telco may be your only options...

Unless you want to install a Slingbox at my house! :)Ha, I still have to get Internet service in that new place. Hopefully, it is fast!

One of the mid-1960s April CQ Magazine articles dealt with how to use invisible paint to hide your huge tower/antenna systems :)

Here tis!

Hello.

I get very few OTA channels on where I am moving to and most likely be
getting cable TV, but it won't have all channels that can be fed with
OTA (same for satellite services). Is it possible to merge both cable TV
and OTA on a single coax cable to TVs and recorders (e.g., DVRs and
computers)?

Thank you in advance. :)

Cable = No. Satellite = maybe

Cable = No. Satellite = maybeAh, so I will have to get two different coax cables for antenna and other for cable TV. :(

Ah, so I will have to get two different coax cables for antenna and other for cable TV. :(

Yes, absolutely.

Yes, absolutely.Thanks. :)

Ah, so I will have to get two different coax cables for antenna and other for cable TV. :(

I have satellite, but won't the cable company install its own cable? So you will only be responsible for the OTA cable.

Will you be purchasing an OTA DVR?

That is one advantage I enjoy with DirecTV and its AM-21 OTA tuner: it converts their DVR into accepting and recording the OTA channels, too.

I have satellite, but won't the cable company install its own cable? So you will only be responsible for the OTA cable.

Will you be purchasing an OTA DVR?Ah, so they won't remove the old coax cables from the previous house owner who used Dish service? I already have an old OTA DVR (DTV Pal DVR).

Ah, so they won't remove the old coax cables from the previous house owner who used Dish service? I already have an old OTA DVR (DTV Pal DVR).

I will let others respond about the reuse of existing cabling issue.

Does the DISH DTV PAL DVR continue to work without an existing DISH service contract?

I will let others respond about the reuse of existing cabling issue.

Does the DISH DTV PAL DVR continue to work without an existing DISH service contract?Dish DTV Pal DVR is ONLY for OTA. Nothing else. Not cable TV, not Dish service, not DirecTV, etc. :)

Normally, cable providers will reuse existing wiring if present. If no wiring is present or the wiring is already in use, they will usually do a half-assed terrible job of running wires around the outside of the house and punching through walls where service is desired. If you want 2 separate runs to all rooms without ugly wires running around outside, you should run it yourself, or hire someone other than the cable company to do it. Do 2 runs from each room you want service to a central wiring area, either in a closet or in an easily-accessible portion of the attic, connected to 2 splitters. Connect the antenna to one, and do a run from the other to wherever the cable enters the home.

Normally, cable providers will reuse existing wiring if present. If no wiring is present or the wiring is already in use, they will usually do a half-assed terrible job of running wires around the outside of the house and punching through walls where service is desired. If you want 2 separate runs to all rooms without ugly wires running around outside, you should run it yourself, or hire someone other than the cable company to do it. Do 2 runs from each room you want service to a central wiring area, either in a closet or in an easily-accessible portion of the attic, connected to 2 splitters. Connect the antenna to one, and do a run from the other to wherever the cable enters the home.Ugh great.

I forgot to mention that the current coax setup only works with one room for OTA: Family room. Other rooms couldn't seem to get OTA antenna feed from the attic. Previous owner said Dish did work. I don't know if the coax setup is messed up somewhere. :(

I just bought a Samsung 64e8000 (great tv) but the digital search for OTA channels only produced 3 (52,53 and 54). All 3 come in perfectly but my last tv had all of the channels. I have a good antenna and great sight to Mt. Wilson. Why only 3?

I just bought a Samsung 64e8000 (great tv) but the digital search for OTA channels only produced 3 (52,53 and 54). All 3 come in perfectly but my last tv had all of the channels. I have a good antenna and great sight to Mt. Wilson. Why only 3?Lose cables? Weaker tuner? What was your previous TV? I assume it is the same coax cables, antenna, etc.?

Everything the same. I had a Mits DLP 65". The 3 channels come in perfectly.

Before scanning, you have to select AIR....instead of CABLE. Maybe?????

yep. I did that. they have 4 choices. digital air, air, cable and cable air I picked digital air and air and it found only 3.

Hello.

I get very few OTA channels on where I am moving to and most likely be
getting cable TV, but it won't have all channels that can be fed with
OTA (same for satellite services). Is it possible to merge both cable TV
and OTA on a single coax cable to TVs and recorders (e.g., DVRs and
computers)?

Thank you in advance. :)
Some DirecTV SAT systems overlap with the TV Band....and some don't,
but you'll have to get someone else to provide detailed particulars....

======================================
Dishnet uses Multiswitches either built into Dish mounted LNB's....or external.
In the latest, "PLUS" variant, the SAT channels for both polarizations
are multiplexed onto a SINGLE cable to each SAT Receiver, eliminating
the old requirement of TWO cables per drop.

Since Dishnet's SAT channels do NOT overlap the TV Band, they can
readily be Diplexed together with TV/SAT Diplexers...IF JUST ONE DROP.

If more than one Drop is needed, a Dishnet "Super Home Node"
(e.g Eagle Aspen SHN-42) Amplifies and then splits the OTA (or Cable)
signals for distribution to each Drop.

Dishnet also provides the ability to distribute the "TV2" Analog UHF
signal from the DVR to any conventional TV Receiver. The other
SHN-42 input is for redistribution of the "TV2" UHF Channel.

See fol. post where I answered this question earlier (see links to diagrams):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=21560672
You need to register with Dishnet to see their Support pages....

yep. I did that. they have 4 choices. digital air, air, cable and cable air I picked digital air and air and it found only 3.
Can you connect another OTA DTV Tuner (e.g. CECB Coupon Box or your
old DTV) to verify that the OTA Coax is still putting out a good signal???

FYI: Samsung Support website shows a new firmware release, dtg 15Mar2012.
Did you connect HDTV to internet for update????

Perhaps you need to call Samsung Tech support....it might be a bad tuner....

thanks for the help. I will try a new cable from my antenna. Tried talking to samsung tech support. After 5 minutes of explaining my problem, they asked me if I had an antenna! LOL. Not much support.