Every step in conversion to HD is very expensive at this point in time. Remember what you paid for your first VCR? That's the situation broadcasters are facing. The infastructure for doing HD remotes is really costly. Pretty neat they spent the dollars. Better spent on a helicopter. I'm not sure we really want to see the anchors in HD. KABC has lit the fuse and now the rest have to catch up or do better. This should speed the conversion along. Yeah

I'm guessing nothing's been changed at the station. KABC studios is probably still SD. How do I know that? I've noticed that there's no regular news graphic overlay or the KABC bug in the HD shots except a specially made LIVE graphic for it. In the SD broadcast, it's not letterboxed and the normal news graphics are there. It's almost like its in a testing stage. The recieved digital HD microwave signal probably bypasses the production stage and is directed to the HD transmitter, thereby temporarily cutting off the SD upconvert of Eyewitness News. In the SD version, the signal is downconverted to SD and mixed in production, which is already in SD, which will have the news graphics. So we still have a long way to go for a true HD newscast. This is just the stepping stone.

6:18 PM, just caught a shot of the live HD chopper feed on ABC. Oh baby, those car chases are gonna be incredible!

One step at a time, folks!!! At this point in time, every single step is quite expensive. To get the helicopter HD picture on the air, we've had to purchase a lot of special equipment, and the installation and testing has been quite an experience. Chroma key and downstream graphics over the HD picture will require even more equipment.

Likewise with new studio cameras, production switcher, etc.

KABC is in an all-digital plant, and has been for over four years. High Definition is definitely in the future, but it will come more slowly than any of us would like.

yours for better television,
--bob huntsman
abc7 engineering

p.s. Opinions expressed in this and all other messages I post in this forum are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of KABC or the Walt Disney Co.

Thank you Bob and to your engineering team at the station. I know even with just getting the copter in HD is a video engineering feat all on its own. Congrats on a great job! I will be looking forward to more eye candy from now on.

Another question, I know you already have 2 standard definition copters, does AIR 7 HD count as the 3rd, or is one of the SD copters retired?

Actually, the helicopters are owned by a contractor. We will normally only have one ship. . .we use two during ratings periods. Only one will have the HD gear, as far as I know.

irie,
--cap'n bob

HD screencaps of AIR 7 HD's microwaved images:

http://img114.echo.cx/img114/8657/kabcdt016yv.th.jpg (http://img114.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt016yv.jpg)
http://img180.echo.cx/img180/2822/kabcdt023ew.th.jpg (http://img180.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt023ew.jpg)
http://img180.echo.cx/img180/9382/kabcdt036dm.th.jpg (http://img180.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt036dm.jpg)
http://img180.echo.cx/img180/4470/kabcdt040bl.th.jpg (http://img180.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt040bl.jpg)
http://img180.echo.cx/img180/1900/kabcdt050wr.th.jpg (http://img180.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt050wr.jpg)
http://img180.echo.cx/img180/1280/kabcdt063os.th.jpg (http://img180.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt063os.jpg)
http://img180.echo.cx/img180/9853/kabcdt072if.th.jpg (http://img180.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt072if.jpg)
http://img164.echo.cx/img164/7421/kabcdt089ut.th.jpg (http://img164.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt089ut.jpg)
http://img164.echo.cx/img164/2563/kabcdt093jh.th.jpg (http://img164.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt093jh.jpg)
http://img164.echo.cx/img164/9061/kabcdt100kz.th.jpg (http://img164.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt100kz.jpg)

Now, how 'bout some Dodger home games in HD (even with the Arte Moreno-like ads on the outfield wall)?

Now, how 'bout some Dodger home games in HD (even with the Arte Moreno-like ads on the outfield wall)?

Channel 95 on DirecTV is showing the FSNW2 HD broadcast of the Dodger/Cardinal series Mon-Wed. The Thursday game (at 10am PDT) is not listed yet but is showing up on FSNW2's web page for HD programming. But I agree. More HD Dodger games are definitely necessary. Interesting that only 5 road games are scheduled for HD and no home games.

Regardless of how KABC gets the copter on the air, it still comes off well and is a leap in the right direction. There actually is alot of incentive for stations to get their HD going. KCBS will proably have a HD facitlity when they move their studios in a year or two. I don't think any of the major stations will sit by and let them be the first with a HD newscast. For the moment, KABC rules.

More HD screencaps from AIR 7 HD 11PM broadcast:

http://img188.echo.cx/img188/6163/kabcdt111px.th.jpg (http://img188.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt111px.jpg)
http://img188.echo.cx/img188/6227/kabcdt120xn.th.jpg (http://img188.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt120xn.jpg)
http://img188.echo.cx/img188/8238/kabcdt132xk.th.jpg (http://img188.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt132xk.jpg)
http://img56.echo.cx/img56/1881/kabcdt147fn.th.jpg (http://img56.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt147fn.jpg)
http://img56.echo.cx/img56/3653/kabcdt152ll.th.jpg (http://img56.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt152ll.jpg)

After this segment, Dallas Raines was showing weather stats over AIR 7 HD's images. In the SD broadcast, you can see the text superimposed over the copter shot; in the HD feed, there is no text. As I've alluded above, to get AIR 7 HD's signal to HDTV recievers, the copters signal actually goes straight to the transmitters, getting only the "LIVE - AIR 7 HD" icon. It's not a bad thing as we HD viewers only cares about the view from above and don't want it polluted with text.

Cover, I've heard about KCBS moving from their Columbia Square lot to the Studio City lot here in the valley. I'd be surprised if they add HD to their upgrade. This should mean KCAL would be a part of it too as they are also Viacom owned.

As Bob alluded to earlier, KABC already is an all-digital plant, even in SD, it's seen by the clean video feeds from the in-studio cameras and in-studio VTR fed video. All current remotes (except AIR 7 HD) are analog composite video microwave transmissions, this is why remotes have the normal NTSC artifacts you see - dot crawl and rainbow shimmer on fine lined images (remember Pres. Bush's necktie?). All L.A. station except KCAL, has an all-digital news studio. In some instances, I can tell if news footage was fed via microwave or shot on location and played back at the station just by looking at how clean the footage is.

ahh the car chases of LA....i personnaly witnissed a stolen mustang fly down the street with a cop car givin chase!!! the thing was finished so fast that it didnt get to the poijnt of getting the news channel with the hd gear foillowing it...
the dude griving this mustang went straight dead center to the big tree in the middle of the cross road sign...then medics and everything else...
anyhow...
i use a cs2 so it figures out all the resolutions and gives me the most out of the signal...i m using a barco 801s...and an x1!!!
hd programming is missing out big time....i mean when are channels like sci fi and history...sience and other good ones are gonna be in hd..i mean wasnt the slogan of one of these companies saying everything in hd by end of 2005!!
i only get:
---777hbohd
---778shohd
---781foxhd
---784nbchd
--- 785ktla
--- 787kabc
also where the hell is discoveryhd???
i mean isant there a hd dicovery channel???

thanks for reading!!

Martin

Thanks KABC for going HD w/ the news. Even if it's just copter shots for now, you can count on me & probably plenty others to switch to (like me; usually watch KTLA or KCAL for news) or continue watching KABC for news. I love my free OTA HD!

Thanks for the screen caps!!! I missed it yesterday as I watched at 4PM but didn't see any HD and pressed on. Great to see more HD...yes car chases will be even better! Cheers.

As for the KCBS studio move. It would be a total waste of money to do a standard def build. That would be a rather dumb thing to do at this point.
But then again, it's not my money to risk, spend, or waste.

Thanks from me too, KABC. BobHuntsman, please tell your bosses that they just won another convert from NBC 11:00 news. Keep up the good work!

Well, I checked my recordings and found that AIR 7 HD wasn't used in the morning newscasts, the SD copter was. They did however use AIR 7 HD in the 11AM newscast over an MTA bus incident on the I-10 at Del Mar in Rosemead, while AIR 7 (SD) was in Riverside County. More screencaps =)

http://img144.echo.cx/img144/1310/kabcdt164mn.th.jpg (http://img144.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt164mn.jpg)
http://img144.echo.cx/img144/8494/kabcdt173ty.th.jpg (http://img144.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt173ty.jpg)
http://img144.echo.cx/img144/7923/kabcdt189bk.th.jpg (http://img144.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt189bk.jpg)
http://img83.echo.cx/img83/3320/kabcdt191dm.th.jpg (http://img83.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt191dm.jpg)
http://img83.echo.cx/img83/7918/kabcdt203qc.th.jpg (http://img83.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt203qc.jpg)
http://img83.echo.cx/img83/5113/kabcdt215mf.th.jpg (http://img83.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt215mf.jpg)
http://img83.echo.cx/img83/1372/kabcdt224ou.th.jpg (http://img83.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt224ou.jpg)
http://img203.echo.cx/img203/89/kabcdt236qt.th.jpg (http://img203.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt236qt.jpg)
http://img203.echo.cx/img203/5466/kabcdt245eb.th.jpg (http://img203.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt245eb.jpg)
http://img203.echo.cx/img203/6933/kabcdt254mt.th.jpg (http://img203.echo.cx/my.php?image=kabcdt254mt.jpg)

(continued from previous post)

When the 11AM newscasted started, they accidentally left AIR 7 HD's signal override the KABC-DT signal while KABC-TV had another story although the audio was the same on both, then when they went to breaking news, on the DT channel, they went from the HD copter shot (which was already overriden accidentally on the DT channel) to the upconverted studio output; so AIR 7 HD's downconverted signal was in SD, routed through the production stage and upconverted to the DT channel. Note that the news graphics and station bug only appears when it's in SD. Ah, the first case of incorrect switching.

http://img203.echo.cx/img203/5274/air7hdinsd0rs.th.jpg (http://img203.echo.cx/my.php?image=air7hdinsd0rs.jpg)

Then we have AIR 7 (SD) in Riverside County here; man it's so grainy.

http://img191.echo.cx/img191/1166/air7sd2bb.th.jpg (http://img191.echo.cx/my.php?image=air7sd2bb.jpg)

Damn, if their golf course shots are that clear, I'm running for the bushes if I hear a helicopter flyover on one of my "sick" days.

yep...pretty soon theer will be no place for the "evil doers" to hide...year ago as a hot rodding teenager....i have had my share of street racing/go cops are here action! but then again, once it gets to the point that the helicopters are called it with infrared and hd cameras...it is too late...dont run...dont hide...just say a prayer and hope the overzealous cops dont brake your jaw when they are unecessarily pushing you to the asphalt so that they can feel "safe" while running you in!!! (I know someone reading this would say...hmm the bad taste as a result of getting in contact/hasseled/time and time imporperly handeled situation/bogously ticketed/sterotyped both racialy and age wise .. have left a legacy of not wanting to see another set of red lights in my rearview mirror...never the less a hd equiped helicopter!!! )

So read it and say to yourselves next time you get in contact with these undereducated/overzealous/mostly rageholic/alchololic/corrupt/ individuals that just happened to be walking around with a badge and gun and say to yourselves....ii better not do something stupid to end up in the lense of these camera equiped helicopters...so face the music like a man and dont act like an ostridge thinking hey if i can see them, they dont exist!

of course i dont thin k i am doing any/some stereotyping of my own...i have a close friend that is a retired sheriff (something i found out some time later!) and after many fireplace talks about how he and his other retired of the job frinds think about how power and also of what their perceived relationship between money and power and all of the other non sense like interest groupd and polictics as a whole...after all these guys ahev seen more that i woudl see in a lifetime as a non shriff/law enforcement personel...do you know what they told me??
here are my finding over various games of poker and lost of liquor!!!

--First it takes a special type of an individual to want to do such a job
--A very small amount of the whole officer corp is squicky clean...everyone is messed up in some way! these hard core dudes seem to estimate one tenth
--human being (in this type of an ocupation such as sheriffs or cop) are the minority rather than the norm!
--A lot of these folks get caught up in their own egos and misstepping ways!!! (somtimes it takes a whole lifetime to finally turn into the monster that someone becomes! take the drug dealing murdering cops here in LA a few years ago...and if history has anything to do with it...you will see and have seen these headlines over and over again in the past and the future!)
--A big percentage get so enraged at the whole "system" that they start acting like the people that they are suppose to keep us all safe from...
--And the last one and my favorite is: (in his own words)..once blue...everyone other "blue" looses the ability to see/hear anything and everything rotten that is perpetrated by other so called "blues"!!! hense the so called "blue wall" of silence!!! (hey how could you blame them..just by talking no other "blue" will ever give them the time of a say...again in his own words: you can never get the stink off of you once you talk...it will follow you the rest of your life)
does anyone remember the movie/real life events of a NY cop called serpico??? now folks that is a lesson in how things were say 30 years ago...how much do you think has changed since then??? yeah right...i am a cop that married a well off girl!!! hahahahahaha

so by now it should be no wonder to you why i truly dispise these lowlives parading around as "saints" in blue ...for eveyone other than themselves of course...

and all of what i mentioned above has been my personal "findings" and askings that came through years of various activities...but mostly poker and drinking to hear and get a handle of what their experiance are and how i should perceive things in my own surroundings...and city!

So the further you are from such individuals...the better of you are!!!
now before i get the flak from all the blue boys reading this. i wanna make sure we understand each other as clearly as possible:

remeber the 1/10 of the folks on the job that i said these hard core dudes thought were honorable ...my apoloigies

I was talking about the other 9/10th of these boys and girls in blue that are the rageholic/bla bla bla (see above for the rest!!!)

Now why did i write what i wrote???

I just felt i should spread some of the knowledge that i have aquired through my reasearch and peronal experiance living in here in this great counrty of ouws...therfore i sorta look at myself as a documentary writer in training that is writting on how money/power and humain nature play a role in our own lives! and what the realities of this so called dark side of human nature are!

anyhow thank you for reading and by all means respond away folks!

Martin

Prehjan, that's a tough read....pointless and so riddled with spelling/grammar errors that it is painful.

Originally posted by SolidState
Prehjan, that's a tough read....pointless and so riddled with spelling/grammar errors that it is painful.

Let me explain... no, there's too much, let me sum up.

shrouds the doings of the men in blue, the dark side does.

Wha?! Lets get back to talking 'bout 'tennas, TVs, 'copters and such.

Originally posted by bhchan
Let me explain... no, there's too much, let me sum up.

shrouds the doings of the men in blue, the dark side does.
The Jedi Bride? What a strange juxtaposition!

Methinks Prehjan has been smoking something strong, yeah unto oblivion! A keyboard and a wasted mind are a terrible thing to mix! ;)

Car chase on now live in hi def! WOO HOO!!!

HOLY CRAP! Tell me someone captured that! They just lit the guy up!!!

I was already recording the newscast. OMG, that is so scary, even in HD. This is also the first LA high speed chase in HD; yet this is the most violent one I've seen since the suicide back in 1998 of a guy on the 105/110 transition.

You could see the gun that the man carried. Hi def is great.

Chase is replaying on 7-2 in SD. Screencaps are here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=538177&perpage=20&pagenumber=2) . Suspect did die though.

Chase in HD... Here's a piece about the gear:

http://toob.typepad.com/content/2005/05/high_def_helo_l.html

I see that these HD choppers are made by the same company. But as I alluded to in another thread; I have doubts that KABC has made an HD recording of the chase. Bob, if you are still reading; do you know if KABC has an HD recorder (HDCAM, DVCPRO HD, or D5 HD) at the station or onboard the chopper? Most replays of AIR 7 HD I see are SD.

More Tony, it looks like your caps got coverage over there!

Was Air7-HD being punished yesterday for showing such violence in crystal-clear detail? I watched all 3 newscasts and saw maybe 3 seconds of HD footage. All the activity on Wednesday must have worn the copter out!

Oops. I notice, that I forgot to link that coverage I mentioned above when reading solidstate's comments now.

Excuse me.

Here:

http://toob.typepad.com/content/2005/05/hd_chase_arrive.html

F#cking figures. They can get a violent car chase right in full HD, but they are absolutely clueless when broadcasting pre recorded shows. :rolleyes:

-Ed

Ah, very nice. Thanks Rick.

I just want to put this here. I found videos of the KABC teasers that aired last Friday that got us here in this thread excited. It's in the ABC 7 FanSite (http://abc7la.tripod.com/) . There's two teasers and the ABC 7 HD promo.

I have an idea that KABC can expand on; and it would work with the HD infrastructure already in place at KABC for AIR 7 HD - high definition remote trucks, or at least one HD truck. KABC is probably the only station in the country that doesn't do the news out of the studio or ground remotes in HD but only the chopper in HD. Given the budget constraints of a TV station, I'm glad KABC chose to go with an HD chopper over in studio HD. I don't see why we would need to see the same anchors in HD everyday while an HD chopper gets the ever changing views of the outside everyday. An HD remote truck would be the next logical step.

Anyone else having trouble receiving KCET-DT 28-1 and 28-2? All of sudden "No Signal" All of the other DT channels are fine.

No problem here but I checked quite a bit later than your post... It may have cleared up in the meantime.

Good Luck!

KCOP still hasn't gotten their act together on routing UPN HD to their HD transmitter. Series Finale of Enterprise is in SD still.

OK... got my antenna up on the roof Saturday.

After a few minutes on the cell phone talking to my 13 year old while he watched the signal strength meter, tightened everything up and was pretty happy with the result.

2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, and 13 digital all came in as well as a couple PBS, Spanish language and whatever.

However, today I'm not getting 4, 5, and 13. Are they not broadcasting their digital signal today? How would one find out if they are?

Everything's coming in here as of 6:30 pm, though none of the shows on now are in HD. 4-2 is also coming in well. I live in east Ventura.

I just bought a LG LST-4200A about a month ago. I don't have a real HDTV monitor but I'm impressed with the improved quality of the picture and the ability to receive quite a few digital signals.

We're only about 13 air miles from, and line of sight to, Mt. Wilson. The reception of analog signals has never been a problem. Never-the-less, there is a noticeable improvement in quality with the digital picture.

The LG unit does an excellent job on the analog signals, too. During a scan for analog and digital signals, it found 47 channels.

The digital stations that I receive here are:
2-1 KCBS HD (with grey bars to fill screen of non-HD content)
4-1 KNBC HD (with black bars to fill screen)
4-2 WX-Plus (weather)
5-1 KTLA HD (with black bars to fill screen)
5-2 KTLA HD (sometimes spanish language)(with black bars)
7-1 KABC HD (with black bars)
7-2 KABC (news replay)
7-3 Weather radar
9-1 KCAL HD (with grey bars)
11-1 KTTV HD (with black bars)
13-1 KCOP HD (with black bars)
18-1 KSCI
22-1 KWHY
24-1 KVCR
28-1 KCET HD
28-2 KCET SD
34-1 KMEX
34-2 KFTR (Channel 46, sister station to KMEX)
40-1, 2, 3, 4 KTBN religious
44-1 (signal has disappeared)
44-2 KVMD
50-1 KOCE HD
50-2 KOCE SD
50-3 NASA (lower quality video)
52-1 KVEA
56-1 KDOC
56-2 Dr. Gene Scott and his widow.
57-1 KJLA
58-1 KLCS SD
58-2 KLCS SD
58-3 KLCS SD
58-4 KLCS SD
58-6 KLCS AN (blank)
62-1 KRCA
62-2 KSDX (Channel 29, KRCA's San Diego sister station)
62-3 (blank)
62-4 (blank)

Take care,
Don

What's with the programming guide? Is each station responsible for their own or is there a single entity that takes care of it for all stations (channels)?

I have a 4DTV satellite receiver and the programming guide with it is not perfect but it is much more complete than the one available for the digital channels.

Take care,
Don

Originally posted by DRDenton
I just bought a LG LST-4200A about a month ago. I don't have a real HDTV monitor but I'm impressed with the improved quality of the picture and the ability to receive quite a few digital signals.

We're only about 13 air miles from, and line of sight to, Mt. Wilson. The reception of analog signals has never been a problem. Never-the-less, there is a noticeable improvement in quality with the digital picture.

The LG unit does an excellent job on the analog signals, too. During a scan for analog and digital signals, it found 47 channels.

The digital stations that I receive here are:
2-1 KCBS HD (with grey bars to fill screen of non-HD content)
4-1 KNBC HD (with black bars to fill screen)
4-2 WX-Plus (weather)
5-1 KTLA HD (with black bars to fill screen)
5-2 KTLA HD (sometimes spanish language)(with black bars)
7-1 KABC HD (with black bars)
7-2 KABC (news replay)
7-3 Weather radar
9-1 KCAL HD (with grey bars)
11-1 KTTV HD (with black bars)
13-1 KCOP HD (with black bars)
18-1 KSCI
22-1 KWHY
24-1 KVCR
28-1 KCET HD
28-2 KCET SD
34-1 KMEX
34-2 KFTR (Channel 46, sister station to KMEX)
40-1, 2, 3, 4 KTBN religious
44-1 (signal has disappeared)
44-2 KVMD
50-1 KOCE HD
50-2 KOCE SD
50-3 NASA (lower quality video)
52-1 KVEA
56-1 KDOC
56-2 Dr. Gene Scott and his widow.
57-1 KJLA
58-1 KLCS SD
58-2 KLCS SD
58-3 KLCS SD
58-4 KLCS SD
58-6 KLCS AN (blank)
62-1 KRCA
62-2 KSDX (Channel 29, KRCA's San Diego sister station)
62-3 (blank)
62-4 (blank)

Take care,
Don

Very cool. I'm 8 miles line of sight from Mt. Wilson and have been using the USDTV box for a couple weeks. I'm going to return it cuz the digital out doesn't work with my reciever. I ordered the LST-4200A and it should be here in a couple days. Have an HD compatible RPTV. For some reason lately I've been getting 28.1 and 28.2 is "Currently off the air" message all the time now. I wonder why just PBS is not coming in?

50-3 NASA TV-This is great,seems to be a brand new addition as KOCE had been looping some PBS programs before.NASA TV is very hard to find even on digital cable systems.I have been watching it on the internet but the quality is very poor.For space geeks this channel will really come alive when they send up the next shuttle-sort of a live real sci-fi channel.

you mean to tell me i can get all the channls above ..with this LG LST-4200A box??
also i read at one of teh sites that had this box in their sell list that only it can be sold in non consumer pplications or whatever..basically i cant buy it...is that what it meant?
i mean there are how many channels there? close to 40 channels? and nasa? cool..
i also would love to find a channel like the science channel on my cable box..but in hd and purly digital..the crap charter is send9ng around as hd is not that great..plus there is onlly like 10 channels in hd..rest are 480p and you can upconvert them or zoom them to 1080i..so it works ok on my video processor..but i can also connect one of these boxes on it for my front crt pj, then i ll be cooking..but still do i get a standalone box or one fo these pci cards for htpc's..will those also get as many as you mentioned..channel wise?



thanks

Martin

Thanks wxman1969

I lowered the antenna a couple inches and picked up 4 again. No 5 or 13 though.

Now I just need to find the spot where everything comes in at once.

Ok, I've done just about everything with the antenna... up a little, down a little, twist it here, twist it there, up some more, down some more.

Still no 5 or 13.

Is it time to get a different antenna?

What really puzzles me is that the first day I put the thing up, 5 and 13 came in fine. What gives?

Do some of the broadcasters vary their signal strength from time to time?
I know that someone said that some of them are not at full power yet. Should i just wait until they are before doing anything else?

Dublus:
Channel 5's digital signal is on UHF channel 31 and Channel 13 is on UHF channel 66. What you might try is tuning to channel 28 (KCET analog), adjust your antenna for the best signal, and then try to get channel 5's digital signal.

Does your receiver have any kind of signal quality or strength indicator? If so, adjust and move the antenna around until you get the best indication.

On the LG LST-4200A, you can do a manual add. In the process, the device indicates the quality of the signal -- it looks like a signal strength indicator but it is really a quality indicator. For me, that came in very handy when I was trying to get the only channel that doesn't come in via my main UHF antenna which is in the attic and pointed at Mt. Wilson -- KVCR, channel 24 (digital 26), PBS in San Bernardino. For that channel and that channel only, I am using an indoor UHF loop oriented for the best signal. An A-B switch is used to choose which antenna I want.

The KVCR signal is interesting because the digital signal is on UHF channel 26. That frequency also has an analog channel that I can barely receive. That is one reason that the main antenna does not receive KVCR's digital signal.

In my opinion, the PBS stations are the best sources of HD programming. Luckily, we have a couple of PBS outlets transmitting HD -- KCET and KOCE. I haven't noticed any HD programming on KVCR or KLCS.

PAX Channel 30's digital signal is supposed to be on UHF channel 38. I have not been able to find it. They may not be on the air yet.

To answer one of your other questions, I don't believe that the stations are varying their output power.

Take care,
Don

Thank you, Don, for your insights.

In trying to retrace my steps as to what could be different from the first time I scanned for channels and now, I realized that late on Saturday (the day I put the antenna up) I had gone to Home Depot and picked up 50' of white RG6 cable (white matches the house better than black). I looked on the packaging but couldn't see any indication regarding the shielding. I wonder if the original cable I used is superior to the cable I got from HD.

I know that everyone says to use quad shielded RG6. Assuming the stuff I got at HD is not, where can I get my hands on some of that in white?

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that the cable change must have something to do with the lost channels. The reason it took me this long to make the connection is that from Saturday night until Monday night I wasn't around the house enough to play with the system. I just sort of forgot that the cable change coincided with the channels disappearing.

Another question; at what point is an antenna-mounted amplifier necessary. I would guess the most important factor would be cable length between antenna and receiver. At what length does the amp become necessary? I've only got a run of maybe 30'. Right now I've got a CM7777 hooked up. Is it necessary? I know, I know... try it both ways and see what happens. I will, but I've got to wait until after work to do that.

Did anyone notice a field dominance issue during Enterprise? It was most noticible whenever there was any movement. Hopefully it was UPN and not my HDTiVo.

Dublus:

If you can get by without the preamp, don't use it. The LG LST-4200A specifically says to use an ATTENUATOR to prevent signal overload. I didn't use one but I don't believe I have signal overload either.

The preamp can cause a lot of problems. If it isn't too difficult to remove, I would start with it OUT of the circuit.

As for whether you're using quad shielded RG6 or just double shielded RG6, and the length is only about 30', that alone shouldn't prevent you from receiving the digital signals. However, you might make sure that the center conductor didn't get bent at either end preventing proper signal transfer.

What is the quality of your analog signals -- especially the UHF channels? Good watchable picture? No ghosts? In the absence of a signal quality meter, those factors will be the best gauge of your digital signal quality.

Which receiver are you using?

I did a check of www(dot)antennaweb(dot)org and find that zip code 93020 is much further away from the LA stations than I thought. That may not be your zip code but it is close enough to see that receiving digital signals from Mt. Wilson may take a very good antenna.

Your best bet to test your system is KBEH (analog 63 and digital 24) and KJLA (analog 57 and digital 49). According to www(dot)antennaweb(dot)org, the transmitters for those stations are about 9 miles away at an antenna orientation of 277 degrees. The Mt. Wilson stations are 47 miles away at an antenna orientation of 81 degrees.

Take care,
Don

Here's some additional information (current as of a week ago) about the various digital stations. When there are two listings for a set of call letters, the lower power level (kW) in the second column is (was) the temporary power level, the last letter indicates antenna polarization [C=circular; H=horizontal]:
KABC-TV 182.000 C
KCAL-TV 300.000 H
KCAL-TV 495.000 H
KCBS-TV 469.000 H
KCET 340.000 H
KCET 190.000 H
KCOP-TV 371.000 H
KCOP-TV 1000.000 H
KLCS 162.000 H
KMEX-TV 400.000 E
KNBC 380.000 E
KNBC 665.000 E
KTLA-TV 310.000 E
KTLA-TV 1000.000 E
KTTV 1000.000 E
KWHY-TV 486.000 H
KWHY-TV 86.000

Take care,
Don

Thanks, Don.

Last night I made a complete list of both the analog and digital channels that I can pick up. I ranked them as good, fair, or poor. There were a total of forty that the receiver picked up (same one you have - LST 4200A). Pretty much all of the "standard" analog stations (ABC, CBS, KTTV, etc) were good, including KCET analog. On the digital side, 5 and 13 were missing, as I said, but all of the other "standard" channels were there. This was with the pre-amp installed. I'm going home for lunch now (it's nice to work close to home). I'm going to try removing the pre-amp first, then, if no change or change for the worse, I'll switch back to the old cable with and without the pre-amp.

Has anyone else noticed that Air7-Hd sometimes broadcasts in SD or upconverts SD, or it just plain looks like cr-p. Or, is it just me? On todays 11AM news it always looked better from a reporter on the ground than the air7-hd shot. Do they really know how to use the equipment?

Here is a list af available channels per the antenna web site for my location (92555)
Why are all the LA analog channels listed and none of the digital channels. they all are coming from MT Wilson and if anything I think the new digital UHF transmitters are more powerful the analog ones.
I am probably gona try a ch4228 and one of the new divco fushin5 PC cards with the new LG tuner. What do you guys think my chances are ?

yellowKVMD-DT 23.1 IND TWENTYNINE PALMS CA 53° 21.9 23
* yellow - uhf KVCR-DT 26.1 PBS SAN BERNARDINO CA 284° 7.6 26
green - uhf KVCR 24 PBS SAN BERNARDINO CA 284° 7.6 24
violet - uhf KVEA 52 TEL CORONA CA 279° 55.2 52
violet - uhf KTBN 40 TBN SANTA ANA CA 279° 55.6 40
violet - vhf KTLA 5 WB LOS ANGELES CA 279° 55.8 5
violet - uhf KWHY 22 IND LOS ANGELES CA 279° 55.9 22
violet - uhf KPXN 30 PAX SAN BERNARDINO CA 288° 35.9 30
violet - uhf KRCA 62 IND RIVERSIDE CA 279° 55.2 62
violet - uhf KXLA 44 IND RANCHO PALOS VERDES CA 279° 55.8 44
violet - uhf KSCI 18 IND LONG BEACH CA 279° 55.2 18
violet - uhf KOCE 50 PBS HUNTINGTON BEACH CA 262° 45.0 50
violet - uhf KDOC 56 IND ANAHEIM CA 279° 55.8 56
violet - vhf KTTV 11 FOX LOS ANGELES CA 279° 55.6 11
violet - uhf KMEX 34 UNI LOS ANGELES CA 279° 55.8 34
violet - vhf KCAL 9 IND LOS ANGELES CA 279° 55.9 9
violet - vhf KCBS 2 CBS LOS ANGELES CA 280° 56.2 2
violet - vhf KNBC 4 NBC LOS ANGELES CA 279° 55.7 4
violet - uhf KLCS 58 PBS LOS ANGELES CA 279° 55.6 58
violet - uhf K69CO 69 PBS RUNNING SPRINGS CA 8° 20.9 69
violet - uhf KCET 28 PBS LOS ANGELES CA 279° 55.6 28
violet - vhf KCOP 13 UPN LOS ANGELES CA 279° 55.9 13
violet - uhf KFTR 46 TFA LOS ANGELES CA 279° 55.9 46
violet - uhf KAZA 54 AZA AVALON CA 279° 55.8 54
violet - vhf KABC 7 ABC LOS ANGELES CA 279° 55.9 7

LA UHF DTV transmitters are rated at LOWER power (typically 300-1000 KW AVERAGE) than analog UHF transmitters (typically 2000-3800 KW PEAK).
Note DTV is stipulated using AVERAGE power, whereas analog has always used the PEAK effective video power (whatever that is).
So given the DTV Peak to Average ratio is about 8 dB, they put out roughly the same average power, give or take a couple dB.

On the other hand, the FCC and ATSC would like you to believe that DTV can "get by" with 20 dB less AVERAGE signal strength than the PEAK signal strength stipulated for analog Class B coverage, which works out as a 12 dB reduction in required average signal strength.

Are you confused yet??? Then we get into comparing apples to oranges.
"Good Enough" analog performance isn't even close to what we would like for DTV...one dropout per hour, per day, per week???
And then there are the multipath fading margin arguments, local clutter effects, antenna VSWR degradation to DTV signal vectors, blah, blah, blah....

=================================================
AntennaWeb.Org is notorious for underestimating performance.
My son lives even further away (between Temecula and Winchester) and gets nearly all LA stations using 4-Bay Bowtie we installed in his attic.

I did a coverage check using Radio Mobile propagation prediction program.
There are some bad spots for a few miles on the S-E side of Sugarloaf Mountain (location for KVCR-DT, just N of UCR) as well as the "RF shaded" region just S-E of the two small peaks just North of Lake Perris.

If I did the triangulation right, it looks like you are in the clear, just North of these two peaks.

For more info on SD and LA DTV propagation prediction, check fol. post:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/2846.html?1112095186

Good Luck...

Dave:

Good question. They apparently think you're too far away. Although I wouldn't say the digital transmitters are more powerful, I do believe their effective range should be comparable. For example, my reception of KVCR, ch. 24 analog, is not that great. KVCR is there but I would never record it. However, the digital signal from the same antenna is perfect. But, that's the way the digital signal is -- it is either there or it isn't -- nothing in-between like we're used to with analog transmissions. (The in-between with digital is where the reception is not consistent. A better antenna should cure that unless the problems are caused by some kind of interference.)

Since the AntennaWeb site is recommending a very good antenna for reception of the analog signals, you'll want an excellent UHF antenna to receive the digital signals in this market. (I'm not aware of any digital signals on the VHF bands in this area. The nearest one that I'm aware of is the digital signal transmitted on channel 10 in Bakersfield.)

Good luck!
Don

DRDenton: What is your source for transmitter power information.
The FCC database contains both licensed and change proposal data, but does NOT appear to indicate WHEN the station has switched over to the new power.

When you have two entries, the lower is the licensed power and the higher is the change proposal that may or may not be in effect.

The only (indirect) report re higher ERP for KABC-DT and KCAL-DT was Larry Parker on 1 April.
He reported a jump in his percentage display (usually based on detected bit error rate vice SNR).
Of course, this jump might have been due to other causes and there were no similiar repots from any other forum user.

I would still like to see authoritative information on actual ERP's.

Originally posted by joe221
Has anyone else noticed that Air7-Hd sometimes broadcasts in SD or upconverts SD, or it just plain looks like cr-p. Or, is it just me? On todays 11AM news it always looked better from a reporter on the ground than the air7-hd shot. Do they really know how to use the equipment?

I guess they've been having problems for the past two days. I rechecked my recordings and noticed yesterday, they didn't directly fed the HD signal from the copter to the transmitter, which usually overrides the SD upconvert, but didn't happen. I'm not sure what happened today, as they did override the SD upconvert, but the direct feed from the copter looked like SD composite video with the color shimmering and softness.

Originally posted by holl_ands
LA UHF DTV transmitters are rated at LOWER power (typically 300-1000 KW AVERAGE) than analog UHF transmitters (typically 2000-3800 KW PEAK).
Note DTV is stipulated using AVERAGE power, whereas analog has always used the PEAK effective video power (whatever that is).
So given the DTV Peak to Average ratio is about 8 dB, they put out roughly the same average power, give or take a couple dB.

On the other hand, the FCC and ATSC would like you to believe that DTV can "get by" with 20 dB less AVERAGE signal strength than the PEAK signal strength stipulated for analog Class B coverage, which works out as a 12 dB reduction in required average signal strength.

Are you confused yet??? Then we get into comparing apples to oranges.
"Good Enough" analog performance isn't even close to what we would like for DTV...one dropout per hour, per day, per week???
And then there are the multipath fading margin arguments, local clutter effects, antenna VSWR degradation to DTV signal vectors, blah, blah, blah....

=================================================
AntennaWeb.Org is notorious for underestimating performance.
My son lives even further away (between Temecula and Winchester) and gets nearly all LA stations using 4-Bay Bowtie we installed in his attic.

I did a coverage check using Radio Mobile propagation prediction program.
There are some bad spots for a few miles on the S-E side of Sugarloaf Mountain (location for KVCR-DT, just N of UCR) as well as the "RF shaded" region just S-E of the two small peaks just North of Lake Perris.

If I did the triangulation right, it looks like you are in the clear, just North of these two peaks.

For more info on SD and LA DTV propagation prediction, check fol. post:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/2846.html?1112095186

Good Luck...

I tried to use the Radio Mobil Propagation thing and got sort of lost. Your pretty close on my location as I am just north of the eastern peak of Perris Lake near the corner of Redlands blvd & Alessandro. I have triaglulated my line of site with Mt Wilson using some topo mapping software I have and it appears to me that I have a fairly clear shot at the towers although there are some small hills due east but not in my direct path either. So due you think the ch 4228 mounted on my roof would be a good choice. I believe I will not be able to use a preamp though because KVCR-DT is so close it may overdrive my tuner card. Also the new Divco Fushion5 w/LG tuner is supposed to do wonders for multipath rejection.

CM4228 is cheap, effective and not as huge and problematic as a big-boom Yagi blowing in the wind.

Since a preamp is probably not suitable for your location, ya gotta go for the big guns on the antenna side.

Most of my time has been spent entering all of the Network Data for LA and SD transmitters....give or take an ERP upgrade.
I plan on posting it on above website sometime "soon".
Only other difficult thing is changing the Map Properties for the desired display (pick a LAT/LONG for the center and then play with SIZE/HEIGHT controls (typical 30-130 km) which is really a displayed area control.

Any other specific RM problems I could help you with?

Originally posted by TonyW79SFV
I guess they've been having problems for the past two days. I rechecked my recordings and noticed yesterday, they didn't directly fed the HD signal from the copter to the transmitter, which usually overrides the SD upconvert, but didn't happen. I'm not sure what happened today, as they did override the SD upconvert, but the direct feed from the copter looked like SD composite video with the color shimmering and softness.
Thanks for the confirmation. They should know when they're not broadcasting in HD and not say they are.

KABC got AIR 7 HD's signal fixed and is in HD again for the 4pm newscast. They showed Star Wars' Stormtroopers marching in Hollywood in anticipation of the showing of Ep III.

Originally posted by TonyW79SFV
KABC got AIR 7 HD's signal fixed and is in HD again for the 4pm newscast. They showed Star Wars' Stormtroopers marching in Hollywood in anticipation of the showing of Ep III.

You mean to say The Force Was With Them??
:D

DRDenton: What is your source for transmitter power information.
The FCC database contains both licensed and change proposal data, but does NOT appear to indicate WHEN the station has switched over to the new power.

When you have two entries, the lower is the licensed power and the higher is the change proposal that may or may not be in effect.

The only (indirect) report re higher ERP for KABC-DT and KCAL-DT was Larry Parker on 1 April.
He reported a jump in his percentage display (usually based on detected bit error rate vice SNR).
Of course, this jump might have been due to other causes and there were no similiar repots from any other forum user.

I would still like to see authoritative information on actual ERP's.

Hello Holl_ands:
I only said that where a call letters were listed twice, the lower power is (was) the temporary power. I didn't say that any station had or had not switched from their temporary power to their full-time power. I don't have any way to know the timing of their change.

The source for the information is: http://www.transmitter.com/
Download the dtvdb.zip file; it contains an Excel spreadsheet of lots of information about all digital stations. Doug updates it every two weeks or so.

A bigger and more complete file is: tvdb.zip It contains all of the active TV, translator, low power TV and DTV applications.

While you're there, sign up for his newsletter if you're interested in the developments in the TV industry.

I looked at your information the other day. Great job! A very impressive plotting program.

I hope that answers your questions.

Take care,
Don

Holl_ands:

I went back and re-read some of your posts on the San Diego site. I had forgotten that you also referenced the www.transmitter.com site and some of Doug's data. I was directed to that site by an article in ATV Quarterly.

In reviewing the plots you displayed for the San Diego area stations, the coverage seems extremely spotty. You mention that Mt. Soledad is not a good location for the transmitters. They don't seem to be in one common location as most stations try to do in most metropolitan areas.

The plot for XETV (unless I'm reading it wrong) seems to be extremely poor. Where is their transmitter located?

Where should the San Diego stations locate their transmitters for the best coverage? Mt. Palomar?

Take care,
Don

Oh, I'm sure the observatory boys on Mt. Palomar would just *love* powerful RF transmitters near their sensitive equipment!
:eek:

Mt. Wilson has an observatory, too!

If the coverage in the San Diego area is as spotty as it looks and if the transmitters are not located on a common peak, it is a shame that they didn't get together for the DTV roll-out and fix those problems.

Having some cursory kknowledge about the trouble they had in San Francisco moving from Mt. San Bruno to a huge tower on Mt. Sutro, I know that it isn't a simple task to get all of the broadcasters to agree on anything -- let alone a single and common transmitter site. In the long run, though, it benefits the broadcasters and those receiving the signals via their own antenna.

Take care,
Don

Originally posted by DRDenton
I just bought a LG LST-4200A about a month ago. I don't have a real HDTV monitor but I'm impressed with the improved quality of the picture and the ability to receive quite a few digital signals.

We're only about 13 air miles from, and line of sight to, Mt. Wilson. The reception of analog signals has never been a problem. Never-the-less, there is a noticeable improvement in quality with the digital picture.

The LG unit does an excellent job on the analog signals, too. During a scan for analog and digital signals, it found 47 channels.

The digital stations that I receive here are:
2-1 KCBS HD (with grey bars to fill screen of non-HD content)
4-1 KNBC HD (with black bars to fill screen)
4-2 WX-Plus (weather)
5-1 KTLA HD (with black bars to fill screen)
5-2 KTLA HD (sometimes spanish language)(with black bars)
7-1 KABC HD (with black bars)
7-2 KABC (news replay)
7-3 Weather radar
9-1 KCAL HD (with grey bars)
11-1 KTTV HD (with black bars)
13-1 KCOP HD (with black bars)
18-1 KSCI
22-1 KWHY
24-1 KVCR
28-1 KCET HD
28-2 KCET SD
34-1 KMEX
34-2 KFTR (Channel 46, sister station to KMEX)
40-1, 2, 3, 4 KTBN religious
44-1 (signal has disappeared)
44-2 KVMD
50-1 KOCE HD
50-2 KOCE SD
50-3 NASA (lower quality video)
52-1 KVEA
56-1 KDOC
56-2 Dr. Gene Scott and his widow.
57-1 KJLA
58-1 KLCS SD
58-2 KLCS SD
58-3 KLCS SD
58-4 KLCS SD
58-6 KLCS AN (blank)
62-1 KRCA
62-2 KSDX (Channel 29, KRCA's San Diego sister station)
62-3 (blank)
62-4 (blank)

Take care,
Don

I just hooked up my LST-4200A last night. Disappointed I can not get Horizon mode on most stations. 2.1, 4.1, 5.1, 5.2, 9.1, 11.1. I'm able to get Horizon mode on: 7.2, 28.2, 50.2 and 58.1-4 only. Also the box will not remember that i want horizon mode on those channels. LG tells me the box will "eventually" learn I want to use the Horizon ratio on those channels. Does not sound right.

My set will display 1080i. have messed with the modes over and over.

I'm worried about burn-in on my CRT set. Maybe i just need to buy a DLP set.

Originally posted by mingus
I just hooked up my LST-4200A last night. Disappointed I can not get Horizon mode on most stations. 2.1, 4.1, 5.1, 5.2, 9.1, 11.1. I'm able to get Horizon mode on: 7.2, 28.2, 50.2 and 58.1-4 only. Also the box will not remember that i want horizon mode on those channels. LG tells me the box will "eventually" learn I want to use the Horizon ratio on those channels. Does not sound right.

My set will display 1080i. have messed with the modes over and over.

I'm worried about burn-in on my CRT set. Maybe i just need to buy a DLP set.
You can choose a default "ratio." I have mine set on "Set By Program."

Check page 17 of the instruction manual for how to set the output format.

Read pages 23 and 24 for information about "Horizon" mode. That mode is only available when the source is SD. Channels 7-2, 28-2, 50-2, 58-1, 58-2, 58-3, and 58-4 are all SD sources. Channels 2-1, 4-1, 5-1, 5-2, 7-1, 9-1, 11-1, 13-1, 28-1, and 50-1 are usually set to HD (even if the source is not really HD).

There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with your set.

Take care,
Don

Originally posted by DRDenton
You can choose a default "ratio." I have mine set on "Set By Program."

Check page 17 of the instruction manual for how to set the output format.

Read pages 23 and 24 for information about "Horizon" mode. That mode is only available when the source is SD. Channels 7-2, 28-2, 50-2, 58-1, 58-2, 58-3, and 58-4 are all SD sources. Channels 2-1, 4-1, 5-1, 5-2, 7-1, 9-1, 11-1, 13-1, 28-1, and 50-1 are usually set to HD (even if the source is not really HD).

There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with your set.

Take care,
Don

What is the difference between 7.1 and 7.2? I don't think I had both with the old USDTV box. The picture on the USDTV box sure was nice tho.

I'm finally figuring this out - all the locals are broadcast in 1080i or 720p so no fancy stretch modes are available.

I was advised on this forum to keep the contrast and brightness to 50% or less and you will not have burn in. I have had a rear projection CRT TV for 5 years (65" Toshiba widescreen). I keep the contrast and brightness at 50%, I never stretch, and I have absolutely no burn in.

Rick R

I am about to buy the RS 2160. I live about 45 miles from the signal, North West of LA. I tried the Zenith Silver HD Antenna and got 0 signal, of course the 2160 is rated at 75 miles, so hopefully it will fare better.

Is it possible to get a decent signal from my closet? I live in an apartment, and don't have an attic. The roof is out of the question, although I might be able to swing putting it on the patio with a 10 foot pole or something. It would still be below roof line, as I am surrounded by other 2 story townhouses. Will buying an amplifier help?

Thanks.

:confused:

Originally posted by Rick_R
I was advised on this forum to keep the contrast and brightness to 50% or less and you will not have burn in. I have had a rear projection CRT TV for 5 years (65" Toshiba widescreen). I keep the contrast and brightness at 50%, I never stretch, and I have absolutely no burn in.

Rick R

I gave my old set to my brother and he managed to burn it in, so I'm always worried about that now. Every time I go over to his place I see that. My set is a Mitsubishi and I have the brightness on the TV input pretty low - about 25.

re, San Diego's lousy transmitter locations:
Unfortunately, due to hysterical and other reasons, we have three local transmitter locations.

KFMB-DT (CBS) and KGTV-DT (NBC) are the oldest on Mt Soledad in the La Jolla area. With a height of only 300 m AMSL, the signal is blocked by our abundant assortment of hills and canyons. We can only hope they relocate these two stations, so we don't have to invest in two and three antenna combining systems.

All the other SD stations are located on Mt San Miguel (815 m AMSL), which provides pretty good coverage for most of SD and Baja Mexico.

XETV-DT (FOX) is just south of border in Tijuana (355 m AMSL), which is difficult for those of us in North County SD to receive, not only due to distance, but also because CH23 is a "party line", shared with KTBN-DT from Mt. Wilson and KVMD-DT, which is alledgedly from 29 Palms but in reality is located on a 2450 m AMSL peak blasting its three sub-channels of shopping programs throughout the East LA and North SD areas.
The FCC sure dropped the ball re. cross-border frequency coordination on this one...and explains the flurry of activity in SD trying to receive SuperBowl from KTTV-DT in LA.

By this fall, XHUPN is expected to have an HD station to carry whatever the UPN network has in HD at that time (hopefully VERONICA MARS gets some better neighbors). Unfortunately, we just heard that it may be located 50 miles inland in Tecate, rather than co-located with XETV (as per UPN13 FAQ), which further complicates the multiple antenna combiner systems and probably means North County SD will be trying to receive KCOP-DT from LA while waiting for them to move their DTV to Ch13.

In a couple (??) years, when some of them go back to their original VHF transmitters, coverage and EMI problems will perhaps improve.
In the meantime cable + SAT rules in SD.

==============================================
The height of Mt Wilson in LA is the primary reason LA stations carry so far.
For us, Mt Palomar is the tallest mountain, but it is 50-60 miles away from central and south SD county...and would probably interfere with LA stations.

If it were possible to move them all, a better choice might be on one of the 800 m high "hills" near Ramona. However, there is probably zero chance.

On the other hand, with land values in La Jolla being tens of million dollars per bare acre, maybe the engineers at KFMB and KGTV can sharpen their accountant's pencils and find a profit motive for co-locating to Mt Miguel.....

Very interesting! Thanks for the detailed response!

I don't receive anything on UHF channel 29. Instead, I get KVMD-DT on a channel 44 sub-channel, 44-2 (actually transmitted on UHF channel 51). I thought I was receiving a 44-1 at one time but it isn't there anymore.

I like the DTV signal since, once it is acquired, it is a perfect picture. Unless you're right on the edge and can't maintain a good signal, the picture is better than anything available via analog. That should be an advantage for you if you can get a decent signal on any of LA's digital stations.

We are not on cable but I installed a 10' C and Ku band dish in the back yard back in 1984. I wouldn't give it up for anything. The 4DTV receiver does a good job with all of the movie, news, Discovery, History, and whatever channels.

Even with all of the satellite channels available and since buying the LG receiver, I find myself watching a lot more PBS programs while I work on the computer. I don't watch them as much as have them to keep me company ;-)

Take care,
Don

What is the difference between 7.1 and 7.2? I don't think I had both with the old USDTV box. The picture on the USDTV box sure was nice tho.

I'm finally figuring this out - all the locals are broadcast in 1080i or 720p so no fancy stretch modes are available.
Hello Mingus:

7-1 is KABC's HD channel. 7-2 is in SD and carries the most recent channel 7 news program and an occasional 20/20 replay -- is it me or is it always the SAME 20/20 excerpt?

You didn't ask but 7-3 is the weather radar.

Take care,
Don

I am about to buy the RS 2160. I live about 45 miles from the signal, North West of LA. I tried the Zenith Silver HD Antenna and got 0 signal, of course the 2160 is rated at 75 miles, so hopefully it will fare better.

Is it possible to get a decent signal from my closet? I live in an apartment, and don't have an attic. The roof is out of the question, although I might be able to swing putting it on the patio with a 10 foot pole or something. It would still be below roof line, as I am surrounded by other 2 story townhouses. Will buying an amplifier help?

Thanks.

:confused:
Hello Pseudo:

You're almost always better off putting your antenna outside. When placed inside, you're accepting a signal loss right off the top caused by the wood and other things in and on your walls.

If you can possibly get by without a pre-amplifier, don't use an antenna pre-amplifier. As a last gasp effort, if all else fails, then you might try a pre-amplifier. In many cases, though, especially where there are quite a few RF signals available, pre-amplifiers cause more problems than they cure.

The best cure for most problems is an antenna with more gain (usually bigger and better -- and, of course, more expensive).

Take care and good luck!
Don

I tried it outside this weekend, and got PBS and CBS at about 60%, but no others. I also tried two silver sensors inside, and got CBS. I am going to try mounting it on a 10 foot pole and see if it helps (was just on the fence for test) Does anyone have experince combining the 2160 and Silver Sensors? I saw a post somewhere where a guy combined two of these with good results, can someone give me the link to that thread, I can't seem to find it.

Thanks!

I just had a Pio tech come by to fix my plasma (unrelated issue) & he mentioned my local stations didn't look all that great (called it "noisy"). He said when my signal strength gets below the low 70s, my PQ will suffer. When I setup my TV months ago, I went to antennaweb, upgraded my antenna to CM 4228 and even used a compass to help align the antenna to Mt Wilson. I always thought you either get digital or you don't and that signal strength isn't all that helpful. Am I doing something wrong? I'm in Southern LA region (generally flat area & I think straight shot to Mt Wilson).

I agree with you.
Digital noise should show up as dropped pixels, macroblocking, green squares, and such.

little black dots here and there, snow, etc. are going to be source-related and not signal-related in digital.

While I agree that the 2160 may not perform as well as the bigger and more expensive models from CM, WG, etc., it works quite well enough for most situations. With digital signals it's all about getting enough of a signal that the receiver can lock onto and hold. If that can happen, the picture will be perfect, period. In the analog world, the differences between this antenna and the more expensive models will be "visible" (less snow, no ghosting, etc.).

I live 60 miles south of Mt Wilson in a valley and I can get "pegged" signals on all but a couple of the 12 channels broadcasting in digital using the 2160 and either the 1171 or the CM 7775 preamp. I recently did a test where I horizontally stacked two 2160's (using about $10 of PCV...) about 40" apart and I got pegged numbers across the board without a preamp (see photos below).


Another member has an "extra" DAT-75 that I'm going to take off his hands so I can do some comparison tests sometime soon.

Finally, just for grins :) , I played around with first two, and then a total of four Silver Sensor antennas in various configurations. What ended up working best was a "modified" quad-stack (see below...). Although this looks like something out of a bad sci-fi flick, I can get strong signals on virtually all channels, even without an amp. With the amp: pegged across the board.



-- Gary


Can you give me some details on how you achieved success with the 4 Silver Sensors? I am going to attempt this as well. The pictures are not showing up. I am 45 miles from signal, in a hilly tree ridden area, but I get CBS at 60%, and detected WB and NBC but only at about 10% when I did a quick test using a 2160, and then two SS's outside.

Should I get the CM preamp? I have a radioshack amp right now which seemed to help, and how do you connect the 4 antennas without major signal loss? What kind of connection do you use? How far apart do you have them stacked?

Thanks! I am a newbie to antennas so any help is appreciated.

Brian :cool:

fwiw, I'm getting no better results using the RCA 45db amp'ing indoors antenna vs. the similarly priced ratshack non-amp'ed indoors antenna.
Thus, I'll probably return the RCA and save myself some electricity.

pseudopod56,

It looks like you are only a little farther than I am from Mt Wilson and I have a 2700' peak in my direct line of sight only 3 miles from me. I get all channels. As a result you should be able to get all channels if you improve your antenna and related setup, unless you have a worse peak than I do. Get a good antenna on the roof, a good preamp, and a straight run of RG6 quad shield directly from the antenna to the STB/TV.

I use a Winegard 8200 UHF/VHF antenna and a Winegard 8275 UHF/VHF preamp.

Rick R

Well, I am in an apartment complex so I can't get the antenna on the roof, just on my patio area. Some trees and 2story apts in the way, but in the direction I'm pointed I have about 50 yards clear until there is a 2 story building.

I am going to try the 4 Silver Sensors, or two Radio Shack 2160s (got ok signals with one 2160). The cable is R6, but i am using 50 feet of it right now, plus 6 from the amp to the tv. Is a preamp more desireable than an amp? Should I use both because of the splitter and 50 feet of cable?

Well, I am in an apartment complex so I can't get the antenna on the roof, just on my patio area. Some trees and 2story apts in the way, but in the direction I'm pointed I have about 50 yards clear until there is a 2 story building.

I'm in the Thousand Oaks area, north west of LA, so there are pleanty of hills in the way. I am going to try the 4 Silver Sensors, or two Radio Shack 2160s. The cable is R6, but i am using 50 feet of it right now, plus 6 from the amp to the tv. I might look into a different amp.
Amplifiers are generally a bad idea. They are good before a long cable run to pump the signal up to compensate for the losses in that long cable run. However, they don't make up for a bad antenna. Overall, amplifiers tend to cause more problems than they solve. If all else fails, try it but don't expect it to solve the problem.

When using an amplifier, it should be as far upstream (as close to the antenna) as possible. You want the best signal-to-noise ratio (S/NR) possible BEFORE amplification.

With digital signals, it is difficult to tell if there is any signal available at all. The receiver won't recognize the weak signal until it reaches a certain threshhold. There is no way to tell if you're just below that threshhold. However, since the digital signals and the analog signals are all on Mt. Wilson, you should be able to see an improvement in the UHF analog signals as you move the antenna around. Find the best spot for UHF analog reception and it should be the same or very close to the same for the digital signals.

If your interest is in just the digital signals, stick to a UHF antenna -- you neither need nor do you need to pay for a VHF antenna. (In a couple of years, some of the digitals may move back to the VHF band. I would not plan for that now unless you're in your own home.) Besides, VHF antennas are physically bigger (because of the lower frequency and longer wave length). If you're putting it on your patio, size matters ;-)) Two antennas of equal gain, one UHF and one VHF will be dramatically different in size. The UHF antenna is MUCH easier to work with. The eight-bay Channel Master 4228 sells for about $50.

Take care and good luck,
Don

I've read the antennasdirect.com DB4 is comparable to the CM 4228, but must be bought online. You can get the 4228 from most Fry's.

Would a CM 4221 be enough? I am not sure the neighbors will take kindly to an antenna as large as the 4228, or is that covered by the fcc rule? It is about 1 meter, but it is square so would that push it over the edge? I just want to be sure so if they complain I can legally tell them to go pound sand.

I guess my question would be which is the best for a hilly area, two 2160s, a CM4221 or CM 4228? I might end up trying them all. Lucky for me I kept my receipts.

A guy one mile from me told me he has a Winegard Square Shooter SS1000 with an added preamp. He said he gets all digital channels. Winegard also has a SS2000 with a built in preamp. The Square shooter is small and looks great but it is not particluarly cheap. It basically looks like a 18" square dish.

Rick R

IMO, the 4228 looks better than a huge VHF/UHF antenna. I didn't have success with one 2160, so I tried researching twin 2160's but found the 4228 at Frys, so my search ended. The CM's are pretty much boxed ready to mount, so it's pretty easy to test (and repackage and return if needed). Plus, they're quite light, so not that difficult to mount. I always wondered if the 4221 would've been enough, which is quite a bit smaller. Just don't fall off the roof like I almost did playing around with all these antennas.

An interesting thing is that I get only about 10% signal without the radio shack amp, which people say is not that great, but when I add it, I get a 50% signal.

I am planning on doing experiments this weekend with 2 silver sensors, 2 2160s, and maybe buying the 4228 or the Winegard (looks nice), at frys, and just taking back everything that doesn't work. One of these has got to do something. I also want the 7775 preamp, since people have been giving it good reviews. I think my main problem is trees and buldings (get CBS and PBS clear as day, only 10% on NBC). I'll post my findings.

Why is it so easy to get 1 station, but not the rest, when all the towers are like 20 feet apart?

I've found that the 4228 works okay, but not near as good as my dual 2160s with a RS 1171 low-noise preamp. I have these mounted on my deck and the run to the 1171 is only about 10 feet. The 7775 is a better choice for your situation, primarily because you can have the amplifier portion up with the antennas. The power supply can be indoors, at the end of the cable run and it sends power back up the cable for the amp.

With digital signals, it is all about reducing multipath. The 4228s are high gain antennas, but usually, gain is not the problem. The receivers have no problem locking on to very weak signals, but only if there isn't a big multipath problem. Where I'm at in southern Orange County, it is 62 miles to Mt. Wilson. Analog reception is pretty crappy, even with a really good, high gain antenna like the 4228. Adding a 7775 boosts the gain to eliminate most of the snow (indication of low gain...), but it doesn't fix the ghosting/multiple images, which means there's still lots of multipath. Using horizontally "stacked", inexpensive 2160s makes the setup VERY directional, enough that I can't remember the last time I've had a dropout, and they've been up in the corner of my deck for about 3 years now. Adding the dis-continued 1171, boosts the 2160s gain output enough that it is more than strong enough to drive about 3 different receivers I have distributed in my house.

For my neighbor's setup, since his wife vetoed the dual 2160 idea, we went with dual Silver Sensors, vertically stacked about a foot apart, with both antennas pointing up at a 45-degree angle, relative to the transmitters. He's using a 7775 amp. Again, this combo works great and he's not had a dropout in years either. We stuck his under an eave, on the corner of his house.

The most important factor affecting performance is almost always location. What I usually do is just walk around with a portable analog TV and find the spot with the least amount of "ghosting". In many cases, this might not be the place where you have the least amount of snow. In my case, it certainly wasn't. There is so much snow that you can barely make out a B/W picture, but it is the spot in my setup where I get the least amount of multiple images.

-- Gary

Did anyone catch an incident "caught on tape" of a driver in South LA burning rubber behind a stopped car, and then running over a guy in front of the yard. I noticed the videographer recording that footage used the Sony HDR-FX1 3CCD HD camcorder. Of course, the "home video" was downconverted to SD, but when viewing it with the newscamera footage mixed in, both footages blended well because of the 3CCD. However, this incident was caught locally in HD, but not shown that way. News article here with picture (http://www.nbc4.tv/news/4535853/detail.html)

Did anyone catch an incident "caught on tape" of a driver in South LA burning rubber behind a stopped car, and then running over a guy in front of the yard. I noticed the videographer recording that footage used the Sony HDR-FX1 3CCD HD camcorder. Of course, the "home video" was downconverted to SD, but when viewing it with the newscamera footage mixed in, both footages blended well because of the 3CCD. However, this incident was caught locally in HD, but not shown that way. News article here with picture (http://www.nbc4.tv/news/4535853/detail.html)
Thanks for the information. I was curious about the camera but the footage that I saw showed the viewfinder but not even a glimpse of the camera itself. The picture quality was very good although some of the camera work had a bit too much movement -- but that's understandable given the situation.

As you point out, every station showed it in SD. That's understandable too since I doubt that any station has HD equipment in the field (except for KABC's one chopper) to dub a copy to.

Where did you get the make and model of the camera?

Take care,
Don

Well, the LCD viewscreen is unique only to Sony's HDR-FX1 camcorder in that it's placed on the top handle of the camcorder; most camcorder's have the LCD on the side. Also, there's only two HDV camcorders in the consumer market, JVC's 1CCD 720 30p GR-HD1 and Sony's 3CCD 1080 60i HDR-FX1. The videographer said he was shooting a video project nearby, so it's possible that it could be using the pro version of that camcorder, HVR-Z1. I do find it odd that this incident was shot with an HD camcorder in a pretty poor part of LA. Most eyewitness videos, even 1CCD MiniDV footage never looks good when transitioned to Betacams or news camera, but in this case, you'd thought the news crew caught the incident, but then here u have a guy that actually got it in HD, now only if he can get it to HDNet.

Link to HDR-FX1 on Sony's site. (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?ProductSKU=HDRFX1&Dept=cameras&CategoryName=dcc_DICamcorders_HighDefinitionVideo)

I went to frys but only found a Channel Master 3041 Preamp.

Tomorrow I will go to another store and get the 7775 and a Square Shooter 1000.

Right now I have two (badly aimed) Silver Sensors connected to the 3041. When I had this in addition to my crap Radio Shack Amplifier, I went from a 50% signal to an 80-90% signal. CBS came in without pixelation, and I also got a digital religious channel, and some kind of infomercial channel (digital). Useless, but better than just CBS. (also, at one point, no antenna was connected to the 3041 preamp, and I STILL got CBS. amazing, I am 45 miles out with houses everywhere.)

I need to mount the SS correctly and I think I will get better results, right now they are not side by side, and only put them where was easiest, not best reception.

Stilll, now I get NBC, FOX, WB, and ABC all decently in analog, but 0 reception digital. Tomorrow I will attempt the dual 2160, and/or the Square Shooter 1000.

Another question. Is there a huge difference between then CM 7775 and the CM3041?


END NERD RANT.

-P56

Anyone else having trouble receiving KCET-DT 28-1 and 28-2? All of sudden "No Signal" All of the other DT channels are fine.Yes. I first noticed this about three weeks ago, although it could have gone out before then. I'm using a Samsung SIR-T165. The signal strength is better on these channels than for the other major networks which are just fine, so that may not have anything to do with it.

KCET OTA is fine for me on all channels?

I've been having trouble receiving KCBS 2-1 and KABC 7-1, 7-2 and 7-3. I'm using a Samsung 360 with D*. I used to get these channels without a problem. Are there any transmission problems or have they lowered the power for some reason??

Thanks.

Last time I checked both KCBS 2-1 and KABC 7-1, 7-2, and 7-3 came in great. However the last time I checked was 5/25 as I am writing this from my hotel in Shanghai, China.

Rick R

After several radio shack and frys trips, I settled on 1 2160 in the attic with a preamp (no need to drill holes in the outside wall). When I tested The Square Shooter it was only slightly better than the 2160 (got channel 9), and expensive, so I am returning it. When I hooked up dual 2160 I got no signal, but I think it might have been a faulty part. I guess I am stuck with CBS only, until I move. I am in kind of a bad location it seems. Hopefully the stations will increase their signal, or we will get digital cable in our complex.

Anyone know why CBS is so strong? According to antennaweb I only need a green antenna to get it, while ABC, FOX, etc all are red.

Anyone know why CBS is so strong? According to antennaweb I only need a green antenna to get it, while ABC, FOX, etc all are red.

According to the information in the FCC database, KCBS's antenna is more than 100 feet higher than all but one of the others. KNBC is second highest with the rest well below. In addition, there is also a lot of variation in the authorized power levels and even more variation when you throw in the temporary levels that may be in use.

First column - call letters; second column -- height of antenna; and the third column -- authorized power (temporary power). Some stations may not be operating at their full authorized power.

Call HAAT Power
KABC-TV 1522 182.000
KCAL-TV 1544 495.000 (300)
KCBS-TV 1680 469.000
KCET 1538 340.000 (190)
KCOP-TV 1487 1000.000 (371)
KLCS 1499 162.000
KMEX-TV 1543 400.000
KNBC 1602 665.000 (380)
KTLA-TV 1557 1000.000 (310)
KTTV 1502 1000.000
KWHY-TV 1495 486.000 (86)

Take care,
Don

Interesting. Thanks for that info. That might explain why NBC almost came in once as well.

I just another idea. If I can put a small 2160 in my attic, what is to stop me from putting the largest one that can fit? Do you think a huge antenna inside the attic would be much of an improvement in my current situation?

that explains why I can't get KCOP at all... a missing 200' compared to KNBC.

any idea why ABC is so weak at 182, while KTLA is given 1000?

that explains why I can't get KCOP at all... a missing 200' compared to KNBC.

any idea why ABC is so weak at 182, while KTLA is given 1000?

It should be noted that there is another factor at work here. The transmitting antennas for all of the major LA stations are situated on Mt. Wilson. They do NOT all use the same antenna. Depending on where the antenna is located and its height, there will be shadows created by the adjacent antenna structures. For example, the western-most antenna will have shadows to the east and vice versa.

I was a little surprised to see how the some-what independents (5, 11, 13) were authorized for more power than the major network stations (2, 4, 7). It really doesn't seem to make sense -- they're all operating on the UHF band and it would seem that they should be authorized much more similar operating powers.

There is another piece of information that the FCC factors in -- the number of people served by the existing analog station. In most cases, the digital signal is projected to serve essentially the same audience. The number of people receiving the analog signal, the number expected to receive the digital signal, and the percentage of the analog signal covered by the digital signal is available in the FCC database. (Also available on Doug Lung's site: http://www.transmitter.com

The FCC may be adjusting the levels to prevent too much overlap from other stations affiliated with the same network. In the case of KABC, there are ABC affiliates in Bakersfield (KERO), Palm Springs (KESQ)(UHF), San Diego (KGTV), and Santa Barbara (KEYT). KNBC is very similar except they don't have an NBC affiliate in Santa Barbara -- it is much further up the coast in San Luis Obispo. CBS is worse off; no affiliate in the Palm Springs area although the coast is served by a station out of Santa Maria. Fox has affiliates in all four areas but, except for Channel 6 in Tijuana, they're all UHF. I don't believe the WB and UPN have affiliates in the Palm Springs and Santa Barbara areas.

Even factoring all of that in, it doesn't add up :confused:

Perhaps someone else can offer a better assessment of the FCC's ways.

Take care,
Don

pseudopod56: The stations are all within a couple dB of each other and a couple hundred feet of elevation isn't going to make much of a difference, given how high they are to begin with.

Much more likely is the selective multipath problem within your attic which may be causing 15-20 dB loss on the worst channels.
Did you try moving the antenna to different locations, trying to avoid wires, metal stud nailing plates, foil backed insulation, heating ducts, etc.

That is probably it. I was reading about Short delay multi-path which is what I think I have. I don't see ghosts. I am going to try with the 4228 and move it around the attic. See what happens. In addition to another building and the attic wall itself, I have a tree directly in the path.

I still don't understand why CBS has no analog image, yet comes in clear w/ digital, and fox comes in decently (lots of static but color), and no digital, would that be due to multipath as well?

Show Heads-Up

On June 11, KTLA (channel 5) will be showing "Miss Tropicana Finals" at 8:00pm and "Bikini Destinations" at 9:00pm and 9:30pm. The "Bikini Destinations" are listed as HD, but the "Tropicana Finals" are not. I believe the "Tropicana Finals" will be HD since it is shown in HD on HDnet with "Bikini Destinations". Should be good.

pseudopod56: They are apples and pineapples....not quite the same thing....
Analog KCBS is on low-band VHF Channel 2 (57 MHz) with only 36.3 kW of power.
Digital KCBS-DT is on UHF Channel 60 (749 MHz) with 469 kW of power.

The R-S 15-2160 is a UHF-only antenna, which was never intended to operate in the low-VHF bands (Channel 2-6).

For VHF, you need a much bigger antenna.
To start with, you might want to try some simple rabbit ears.
They can be connected to the VHF input of a dual VHF/UHF input preamp, such as the CM-7777 Titan model or the newer 0264DSB Spartan model that eliminates the loss in the external balun transformer (by directly matching the 300 ohm impedance found on most antennas).

See fol. for a list of stations/power levels for L.A., 29Palms/Indio/PalmSprings and San Diego/Baja :
http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/ca/tv.asp?m=los
http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/ca/tv.asp?m=pal
http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/ca/tv.asp?m=sdi

Has anyone noticed that the quality of the PBS over the air stations has been degrading as of late. They used to be the benchmark in clarity and definition. As of late though, in my neck of the woods at least, they seem to be showing much more content in a down scaled resolution.
Sometimes I would wonder if something is wrong with my front projector until I change the channel to CSI or House where the picture is stunning. Maybe the downscale when they show a repeat. I don't know.

Show Heads-Up

On June 11, KTLA (channel 5) will be showing "Miss Tropicana Finals" at 8:00pm and "Bikini Destinations" at 9:00pm and 9:30pm. The "Bikini Destinations" are listed as HD, but the "Tropicana Finals" are not. I believe the "Tropicana Finals" will be HD since it is shown in HD on HDnet with "Bikini Destinations". Should be good.
Thanks octavian, I was getting tired of mountain heights megawatts and the like. THIS is important!!! :D

Many recent KCET-DT programs are upconverted. All the Nature and Nat'l Geographic shows
are upconverts. Soundstage, Dessert Speaks, gardening and cooking stuff are HD. I just wish they would do DD 5.1.
OTOH, KOCE_DT channel 50-1 does lots of HD...

Is there a digital or HD KCAL 9?
I can't seem to find it.
All other stations come in great and I have a straight shot @ the hills from Seal Beach across the Los Alamitos Reserve Air Station.

4 Bay UHF Channel Master

Channel 9 does HD on Sunday around 6 pm, showing IMAX movies. It looks great. Is channel 13 doing HD yet? I saw that they seemed to have gone back to SD 480i for a couple of weeks, and now they are broadcasting in I assume 1080i because the letterbox is now in the signal itself, but the programs are still SD.

Channel 4's digital signal disappeared on Friday night at about midnight. Today, Saturday, the 4-2, weather programming, digital signal is not available but the 4-1 is still there.

KABC's digital signals, 7-1, 7-2, and 7-3 have been down for all day from what I can tell.

Take care,
Don

Channel 4's digital signal disappeared on Friday night at about midnight. Today, Saturday, the 4-2, weather programming, digital signal is not available but the 4-1 is still there.

KABC's digital signals, 7-1, 7-2, and 7-3 have been down for all day from what I can tell.

Take care,
Don
Correction:
KABC's digital signals don't show up as 7-1, 7-2, and 7-3 -- they show up as 53-1, 53-2, and 53-3. Not a good move on their part.

My LG LST-4200A sorts the channels by the label assigned to the signal. That label is under the control of the station. Up until last night, channel 7's digital signals had always been labeled as 7-1, etc.

There is one other digital signal that is mislabeled -- KVEA is labeled 39-1 instead of 52-1.

Take care,
Don

Yes, KABC's OTA has been down all day, though it's there on DirectTV on their HD local feed. I am watching Bambi in what appears to be HD.

Yes, KABC's OTA has been down all day.....
Is it still down?

Actually, I tuned to 53.1 and there it was! I redid a scan on my DirectTv HD TiVo HD and it "discovered" 53.1, 53.2 and 53.3 which are the local ABC digital stations. These are the UHF frequencies they transmit on, but the signal is supposted to carry a piece of information to remap the channel number to the "expected"channel on the tuner. It would appear that they are not transmitting that information as of yesterday for some reason. I assume that they must know this by now, but I can't imaging why the don't fix it. So there is nothing on 7.1, etc. You must manually tune to 53.1 to see the signal OTA. Strange.

I knew about 53.x, and I still can't get the station.

Well, I stacked 2 2160's on top of each other (42 inches apart) and mounted it in the attic. Instead of just CBS, I now get 3 mexican channels in digital. Thats it though. I am pretty much done with it and will now just write letter to my land lord begging for digital cable, or permission to cut down trees.

:mad:

Earlier today, KABC started showing up as 7-1, 7-2, and 7-3 again.

KXLA, analog channel 44, turned their 44-1 back on; KVMD, channel 23, is still being rebroadcast on KXLA's 44-2.

KVEA, analog 52, corrected their assignment. Even though it says KVEA 39, it shows up correctly as 52-1.

KLCS's 58-6 has, to the best of my knowledge, never had any video. Same thing with KRCA's 62-3 and 62-4.

Take care,
Don

Well, I stacked 2 2160's on top of each other (42 inches apart) and mounted it in the attic. Instead of just CBS, I now get 3 mexican channels in digital. Thats it though. I am pretty much done with it and will now just write letter to my land lord begging for digital cable, or permission to cut down trees.

:mad:Are you sure vertical stacking is the best way to go? When I was first considering the option, I thought I read horizontal stacking was better for some reason. But, that involves buying adapters and such that weren't avail at my local Radio Shack and looks worse IMO than even a big bowtie antenna, so I dropped that option.

Which type of stacking works best in your situation may have to be determined by testing. However, one test of vertical and horizontal stacking to receive LA's digital stations can be found at: http://www.atechfabrication.com/tests/03-03-02_horizontal_vs_vertical_stacking_test.htm

As you'll see, he had better results with horizontal stacking.

Take care,
Don

If you guys would take a look at this this thread:

CBS Green Dots (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=543319)

On the third page, CBS is trying to find out if anyone has seen this on KCBS-DT as they try to track down the problem.

If you would take a second to glance at it, it would help with this.

Thanks.

Hello

New to the forum.

I live in West Hollywood 90046 and get pretty good reception using an indoor UHF gemini/zenith antenna [outside on the balcony], a samsung HDTV set top box, and a Panasonic 37 ED commercial plasma display

I am able to get

CBS 2
NBC 4.1/2
KTLA/WB 5
ABC 7.1/2/3
KCAL 9
FOX 11
UPN 13
PBS KCET 28.1/2
PBS KOCE 50.1/2
KDOC 56.1/2
PBS KLCS 58.1/2/3/4

and a whole bunch of spanish language channels

here's my questions--

are there any other channels I might be able to get?

on the weaker reception channels-- typically 2/13/56/58, I get drop out/pixelation when it is very windy [no probs when it rained] -- is this normal?

quality even on SD is usually excellent, but sometimes on some channels, the picture seems to pixelate, but its not a reception issue-- more like they did a bad transfer or a broadcast problem or sthing?? does this happen?

any comments much appreciated

thanks!

Benway,
You're getting everything I get. Once in a Blue Moon a San Diego HD station comes in but not reliably. I forgot which one. Have you tried using the antenna indoors? That would eliminate the wind issue.

I'm also in West Hollywood, 90046, with an outdoor antenna, I get what you get and that's about it. I've never tried turning the antenna south to try the San Diego stations. I'm near Crescent Heights and Melrose, if you're north of me, i.e. closer to the hills, I'm really surprised you're getting all of that with an indoor antenna. The hills cast a "shadow" since the transmitter are on Mount Wilson. Good to hear that the tuners are getting better and better.

thanks for the replys

I think I do get some San Diego stations?? -- I think one of the PBS is from San Diego.

I am right at the base of the hills at sunset/crescent hts.

Cant bring the antenna inside because the building has a metal roof which kills the reception. However I dont think the wind issue is local-- it seems like its related to the wind up in the canyons/hills, if that's possible-- I'll get a reception blip then a gust of wind a few mins later! will a signal booster help this?

and I get interference when helicopters fly over too [which, as its like apocalypse now round here, is every 5 mins!-- how can the news choppers fly so low all the time??]

anyway generally v. pleased with the dtv service-- beats the pants off adelphia HD

thanks!

From antennaweb.org (http://www.antennaweb.org) this is what is theoretically possible to get in our zip.

BTW...welcome Benway.

What's happening when the helicopters are flying over, is they are reflecting a new signal, which is moving both in time and space, that your tuner can't deal with. ATSC/DTV tuners have a great deal of difficulty with multipath, which are reflections of the source signal off of buildings and hills. They arrive at your antenna at a slightly different time than the original signal or the reflection that your box is tuned to at any given moment. The tuner has to know how to ignore the reflections and find one clear signal and when it encounters a signal that is moving it just can't handle it. There are some very advanced antenna's out there that can help deal with this. There's a guy living deep in Laurel Canyon that is using a SquareShooter (http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=squareshooter&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8) to watch all of the DTV stations off of a reflection from a building on Wilshire.

You're very lucky you're getting what you get. ATSC transmission is a nightmare, especially in urban areas and multi-family dwellings.

An automatic scan won't always find all of the digital stations.
They also have problems finding the "virtual" channel numbers, i.e. "channel" in above list.
Try entering the real UHF channel number ("frequency assignment" in above list),
followed by .1 and then .2 and then .3 for the various sub-channels (KJLA-DT goes above .10!!!).

For example, if the PSIP works correctly, KTTV-DT should show up as virtual channel 11.1.
But, when it doesn't, try punching in 65.1, 65.2, 65.3, etc. until you find all of the sub-channels (we found it on 65.3).

Note that the virtual sub-channel numbers don't always match real sub-channel numbers.
And the hi-rez sub-channel is usually, but not always on the first sub-channel.
And sometimes the first two subchannels are not occupied, just for the annoyance thereof.

I am right at the base of the hills at sunset/crescent hts.



That's your issue as it is for anyone up or down Sunset/Santa Monica Blvd.

You locations makes it impossible to get a clean shot at Mt. Wilson so you are shaded. Mt. Wilson is the best location for the LA Metro - and there are tradeoffs everywhere - along Sunset/Santa Monica out to PCH is just the worst area for Mt. Wilson coverage because of the mountain in your line of site.

That's why you get pixelization when it rains or when helicopters fly over - the signal is ify enough as it is.

It's no different than the multipath you receive on an FM receiver when driving in the area - only ATSC signals for HDTV make it even worse.

You might try geting a more directional outdoor antenna. That way it will reject the reflected siganls and strengthen the direct signals. Many people like the Channel Master 4228 or the small and nice looking Winegard Square Shooter SS1000.

Rick R

LA Stations Rescan:

Did a rescan this afternoon, and received 5.3 (music videos). Not sure when it started, nor for how long. Station c/s showed test only. Anybody else get this test station??.

Yeah. Just did a resacn. It's there, but at this time there's no video.

It just appeared today. KTLA's 5-3 is labeled "test" and it has no video this evening.

KVEA, channel 52's digital signal is going through an identity crisis. It has jumped between 39-1 and 52-1 over the past four days. My LG automatically adjusts but, while surfing through the channels, if the last time through they called themselves 39-1 and now they're back to 52-1 (as happened today), the receiver skips over channels 44 and 50 (40 is blocked out).

KVCR, San Bernardino, channel 24's digital signal has gotten very touchy for me. It had been solid but something changed; the signal quality has been fluctuating so much that the receiver can't lock on to it.

Something changed at KTTV, channel 11's digital transmitter. For the past four days or so, the quality has dropped below the LG's acceptable threshhold. There is a signal there but it isn't good enough.

Take care,
Don

I have two Samsung T-151 OTA tuners, one is a year older than the other. The older one stopped receiving KCET about a month ago. Meter shows strong signal strength, but a black screen with no sound. The newer box continues to work fine as before. Tried unplugging it, no success. It still gets all the other LA stations. Since I have read that the older Samsungs need a firmware upgrade to receive the "broadcast flag" if in the signal, does anyone know if KCET is transmitting the broadcast flag in their signal? I would guess that PBS would be the last to do that, but who knows.

The Broadcast Flag has been struck down by the courts. It is no longer a concern.

KABC - NBA Finals Game 4 Sound issues:

Wow, for the second game in a row there is some seriously bad sound being broadcast. The signal is dolby digital but ONLY the left and right channels are active. NO center and NO surround. It sounds horrible!

KABC - NBA Finals Game 4 Sound issues:

Wow, for the second game in a row there is some seriously bad sound being broadcast. The signal is dolby digital but ONLY the left and right channels are active. NO center and NO surround. It sounds horrible!

WOW, I hadn't noticed at first. You're right!

KABC - NBA Finals Game 4 Sound issues:

Wow, for the second game in a row there is some seriously bad sound being broadcast. The signal is dolby digital but ONLY the left and right channels are active. NO center and NO surround. It sounds horrible!

I see this a lot with my LG box. most channels say DD, but output only stereo. I wonder if it's a signal issue. my signal bar is usually about 1/2. I'm 8 miles from Mt. Wilson so only use a small Zenith antenna. Is this typical for a station to broadcast DD, but only output Stereo?

I see this a lot with my LG box. most channels say DD, but output only stereo. I wonder if it's a signal issue. my signal bar is usually about 1/2. I'm 8 miles from Mt. Wilson so only use a small Zenith antenna. Is this typical for a station to broadcast DD, but only output Stereo?Actually, there are a lot of non-DD programs but this broadcast is the first time I have heard NO sound from the center channel speaker. Not even a whisper. Very strange. I have strong signal strength (80%) and this is definitely a broadcast issue. It is very obvious if you are using a system other than your TV speakers for sound.

Is there anyone getting sound from the center or surround speakers?

I see this a lot with my LG box. most channels say DD, but output only stereo. I wonder if it's a signal issue. my signal bar is usually about 1/2. I'm 8 miles from Mt. Wilson so only use a small Zenith antenna. Is this typical for a station to broadcast DD, but only output Stereo?

I switched to my TV's internal sound and it sounded muddy. It was clearer in the 2.1 that was being received.

Im in Perris (riverside county). I haven't seen any threads on here for my area. I need an antennae for over the air HDTV until Direct Tv activates their satellites for this area (about 3 months from now).

I went to radio shack and they talked me out of it...said the reception wasn't good. I guess I should believe them (not many salespeople talk you out of a sale), but was wondering if anyone on here had any experience.

It was an indoor antennae.

Revgen - I know the broadcast flag was struck down, but I know from reading the AVS forum some stations in the US started transmitting it on a test basis in Oct 04. After doing more research, I think KCET might now have a PSIP problem. The Sam 151 was described in another thread as the ultimate OTA station monitor, since some of them have been reported to act goofy any time PSIP transmissions are not set up perfectly. See thread below, the problem described is exactly the same as what my old 151 is doing.

Q......My Samsung 151 still can't get WDIV. Shows a good signal strength, but no audio or video. Can't figure out how to turn off the PSIP feature on the Samsung.

A....You can't. For the Samsung (and a few other) receivers to display a picture, several values in the PSIP stream have to agree. Lookup tables, PIDs, Major-Minor channel numbers and the like. Many other boxes can simply ignore a glitched PSIP and continue to work. Old Sammys can't. If the TV station doesn't own/test with a Samsung, they'll get a picture and assume the problem is on your end.

Further rescan of LA stations over the past weekend, and noticed PAX now up and running on channels 30.1 through 30.4

Yes, the signals for PAX are transmitted on UHF channel 38. Very good signal strength/quality here.

30-1 is labeled KPXN DT
30-2 is PaxEast
30-3 is Worship
30-4 is Faith (running an old English black and white movie now)

Take care,
Don

KTLA's 5-3 is carrying "The Tube," a music video channel.

Take care,
Don

KTLA's 5-3 is carrying "The Tube," a music video channel.

Take care,
Don

Interesting. Nice graphics. Could be an interesting addition. It's a Raycom operation, but I imagine they HAVE to be on the air in Los Angeles to get anywhere with the labels.

Yes, the signals for PAX are transmitted on UHF channel 38. Very good signal strength/quality here.

30-1 is labeled KPXN DT
30-2 is PaxEast
30-3 is Worship
30-4 is Faith (running an old English black and white movie now)

Take care,
Don

This is there common setup in their markets. East/West or West/East on .1 and .2 with .3 and .4 as listed.

found PAX but 5-3 has disappeared? it was there when it had no picture, but now it does not come up as a channel

how do you enter "5-3" directly using the remote

[samsung set top box]

thanks!

You're right. 5-3 is gone. Not just blank or empty but gone. It'll probably be back at some point.

Take care,
Don

Anyone out there in Costa Mesa CA? What kind of antennas are you using for HDTV? Anyone with the Winegard Squareshooter S-2000? Need some help here.
thanks

In this evening's 5PM newscast, I noticed that KABC finally has a way to show taped AIR7HD shots in HD. Prior to this, most of the AIR7HD replays were only SD. However, when replaying taped shots, the same "Live AIR7HD" bug is shown in the DT channel, which could lead to confusion.

Maybe it's just me.. but KABC seems to be really cruddy as of late. I had a great signal till about 9pm.. then it went way downhill. Receiver can't maintain a lock.. yet every other channel looks great.

Anyone else seeing the same thing? Are they dropping their output power once prime-time is over?

There is major antenna work going on this weekend at Mt. Wilson. KTLA is installing a new DTV antenna for maximation of their DTV channel 31 signal. Other station nearby may have to operate at reduced power so that workers can work on the tower.

There is major antenna work going on this weekend at Mt. Wilson. KTLA is installing a new DTV antenna for maximation of their DTV channel 31 signal. Other station nearby may have to operate at reduced power so that workers can work on the tower.

Glad I saw this. I just noticed that KTLA-DT is gone and the baseball game on Fox is in "fuzzy-HD". I thought my eyes were going on me. :D

Agreed, it looks more like 16x9 SD. But, to me, it looks no better or worse than an HD baseball game they showed about a month ago on Fox. But, isn't it just the quality of the source, not necessarily the transmission? I thought you either get digital or you don't. It's not like VHF where you can get the 'fuzzies.'

Fox does this occasionally. It's unrelated to the work on Mount Wilson.

The last few days Channel 5 is gone and channels 2, 7, and 13 (digital) are unwatchable. I noticed that channel 7 improved during prime time. Maybe they go back to full power at the end of the work day? In any case I am glad to know this is temporary. However, last time channel 13 moved their transmit tower to improve the signal the channel became unwatchable for 2 years. Hope that doesn't happin.

Rick R

same here and 58 KLCS has gone too

For me, everything is good except 5-1 and 5.2 are "no signal" which I believe is probably due to some type of maintenance (it is just before 1 AM now). Channel 11 is back; it had been very weak for the past week to 10 days. KLCS is fine here.

Take care,
Don

58 is back on

5 is still out for me

all other channels OK

Last night all channels back to normal except channel 5 is still gone. Glad the Smallville season is into repeats.

Rcik R

This explains it...

We are upgrading our digital equipment. Unfortunately we've run into some difficulties. Our hope is to have the signal up by this weekend or early next week.

Thank you for your patience and for watching KTLA!

Channel 5 is now back up stronger than ever. It is coming in at 93% as one of the strongest channels. Stronger than before I think.

Rick R

5.3 hasn't come back on. I wonder if the Tube is going to become permanent or not?

Channel 5 is now back up stronger than ever. It is coming in at 93% as one of the strongest channels. Stronger than before I think.

Rick R

I live way out in Moreno Valley and just installed a Fusion 5 Hd card with a CM 4228 (no pre-amp) and just tuned in KTLA with a 70% signal. I can get the CBS, NBC, ABC & KTTV sometimes with a signal of around 60% and at other times the channels just fade away to about 30%. I am going to try installing a pre-amp next to see if things improve. I have one concern though. I have a local PBS channel @ 26.1 that is very strong @ about 90% with a db of 26 or so. I am afraid I may over drive a pre-amp and it might effect all the other signals. Anyone have any experience with this kind of situation. Also given I am 55+ miles from all the other LA transmitters how much typical gain or improvement could I gain (% or db) installing a pre-amp vs without one.

I live way out in Moreno Valley and just installed a Fusion 5 Hd card with a CM 4228 (no pre-amp) and just tuned in KTLA with a 70% signal. I can get the CBS, NBC, ABC & KTTV sometimes with a signal of around 60% and at other times the channels just fade away to about 30%. I am going to try installing a pre-amp next to see if things improve. I have one concern though. I have a local PBS channel @ 26.1 that is very strong @ about 90% with a db of 26 or so. I am afraid I may over drive a pre-amp and it might effect all the other signals. Anyone have any experience with this kind of situation. Also given I am 55+ miles from all the other LA transmitters how much typical gain or improvement could I gain (% or db) installing a pre-amp vs without one.

I live in Perris which is a little further than you. I am using a Channel Master UHF/VHF Pre-amp with a Square Shooter antenna. I get all LA locals and also the PBS 26.1 with no problems (except for UPN but we all know about that one).

Thanks!

I live in Perris which is a little further than you. I am using a Channel Master UHF/VHF Pre-amp with a Square Shooter antenna. I get all LA locals and also the PBS 26.1 with no problems (except for UPN but we all know about that one).

Thanks!

I am wondering what kind of signal quality you or others migh have seen before adding a pre-amp as compared to after adding one. I read on one of the vendors websites it was like increasing your antenna siize 8 times. I think that might be a little inflated. What I am really wanting to know is if say your signals are mosthly in the 50-60% range with beteen 14-15 db how much can it increase it with just adding a pre-amp. I know that there are a lot of other variables but am looking for some general experiences. I am hoping for at least a 20% improvement.
Thanks, Dave

Any word on if the stations are on schedule to upgrade their transmit power? I am way out at the fringe and I'd like to know if/when they are at full power before I give up. So far I haven't gotten squat!

I am wondering what kind of signal quality you or others migh have seen before adding a pre-amp as compared to after adding one. I read on one of the vendors websites it was like increasing your antenna siize 8 times. I think that might be a little inflated. What I am really wanting to know is if say your signals are mosthly in the 50-60% range with beteen 14-15 db how much can it increase it with just adding a pre-amp. I know that there are a lot of other variables but am looking for some general experiences. I am hoping for at least a 20% improvement.
Thanks, Dave

If you are already getting a lock on the channels why do you need a 20% improvement?

If you are already getting a lock on the channels why do you need a 20% improvement?

I do not get a consistent lock at all times of the day. Sometimes I get the channels for an ahour or so and at other times as I said they just drop out and my signal with a signal level of 30% or so. I am trying to figure out how much a pre-amp will improve the situation.

By the way I dont know if its just good conditions or what but my signals are higher tonight than I have ever seen them on all the channel except 2.1 CBS which I rarely ever can get ti play. KTLA 5.1 is booming in at 80%.
Anybody know if maybe they turned up the power. Seems unlikely that they all would increase at the same time but maybe they were not running full power do to maintainace @ the KTLA site.

KJLA, channel 57, has made some changes. As I was going through the channels and got to 57, it reverted back to 49-3. My LG LST 4200A sorts the channels based on what they call themselves -- usually it is their analog channel assignment but in some cases, as this one, it is their digital channel.

In addition to 49-3, KJLA has 49-10 with a small dish advertisement and music. They also have 49-11, 49-12, 49-15, and 49-18, which are all empty (blank screen).

A similar situation has occurred at KXLA. Channel 44's signals are named 51-3 and 51-4. The 51-3 carries asian programming and a 51-4 is a rebroadcast of KVMD.

It seems to me that if the broadcasters aren't any more careful about how they assign their own channel numbers than appears to be the case, the average viewer could become very confused. I'd suggest that the stations make it more difficult, if not almost impossible, to change the number.

Take care,
Don

When they have to do tower maitence you will find all the stations on Mt. Wilson need to reduce power or shut down completely. That's standard. You cannot have workers climbing around bays transmitting a TV signal.

Any word on if the stations are on schedule to upgrade their transmit power? I am way out at the fringe and I'd like to know if/when they are at full power before I give up. So far I haven't gotten squat!

If my memory serves me today, 7/1/05, was the deadline for all L.A. stations to go to full power. Your problem near Edwards AFB is that the Mt Wilson transmitters try to broadcast to the south, east , and west. They expend less energy to the north. Plus the higher mountains on the north side of Mt Wilson prevent you from getting a signal. I am west and a little north of Mt Wilson and have difficulty getting a signal . However, I do now get all stations.

Rick R

Thanks for the explanation, Rick. I will try during the day tomorrow and see what happens. I could get 7 analog last week (4228 w/7777) but nothing else. Unfortunately I'm not going to be able to put the 4228 outside, so it will have to be the 4228 in the garage or a smaller outdoor antenna (I have a Silver Sensor I can connect to the 7777) mounted to a J-pole on my dish mount. I could get away with putting up a SS-1000 but I think anything larger will get forcibly uninstalled.

So one more question, is the SquareShooter SS-1000 going to get me better performance than the Silver Sensor (both with CM 7777 preamp)? Reason I ask is, if the Silver Sensor doesn't work, I can save some $$$ and not even bother with the SquareShooter. :)

I didn't know the broadcast antennas were directional, but on clear days I can see the problem with the higher mountains in between me and Mt. Wilson. I was hoping to be far enough away to reduce the diffraction angle and dB loss enough to get decent reception. The directionality of the broadcast signal and my inability to put up a "real" antenna outside make me not too hopeful. :(

Only the "Big Four" stations in top 100 markets are required to go to full power by 1 July 2005. All others have until 1 July 2006.
So even though they might have submitted a full power Change Proposal, they may or may not be upgrading at this time.
Apparently the only way we know is by a preponderance of forum users reporting significant improvement....

==============================================
Most LA stations "tailor" their antenna pattern toward you for about 3-5 dB loss.

SquareShooter (4.5 dBd per spec) and Silver Sensor (3.5 dBd measured) are both low gain antennas with about the same gain.
The small 1 dB difference isn't significant since they represent two different measurement methods.

On the other hand, the CM4228 is a high gain (13-15.5 dBd) antenna.

If you have under 10 dB loss in your attic (3-6 dB is more typical), then the CM4228 "should" be better.

Since you are very marginal, getting the CM4228 outside may still be needed.

You might also want to consider combining the outputs of two "stacked" Silver Sensor antennas prior to going through the preamp.
Some have reported horizontal spacing may be better than vertical spacing,
but in either case a power gain of about 2 dB can be provided plus the added
protection against multipath fading due to the improved likelihood that at least one of the antennas will not be in a signal null.
This is one of the big advantages of the CM4228, with eight reception elements
distributed in both horizontal and vertical dimensions.

I am now getting a patchy channel 8 which appears to be a sort of clone of CBS??? i think its original number is 55??

KFMB in San Diego.

http://www.kfmb.com

That KFMB site has a great column (http://www.kfmb.com/misc/hdtv/index.php) on HDTV. It is written with humor and should be required reading for anyone with questions about HDTV reception. Although it is written about conditions specific to San Diego, the information applies to all locations.

Take care,
Don

KXLA and KJLA have re-numbered their digital signals back to what you would expect -- 44-1 (KXLA), 44-2 (KVMD retransmission), and 57-1 (KJLA). KJLA is back to a single program; they dropped all of those extra sub-channels.

The KVMD programs rebroadcast on KXLA are easy to identify because of the dot pattern that is always there. I am unable to receive KVMD's channel 23 signal so I don't know if that pattern shows up in the original signal or if it only appears in the retransmission.

KOCE has dropped the NASA feed that was on 50-3. There is programming on 50-3 but it appears to be a locally produced program that, so far, is on a loop and repeating every 30 minutes. The quality of the video is poor -- lots of MPEG artifacts during any movement. As you know, there is only a limited amount of bandwidth available for a station's digital signals. I would hope that the HD programming would get priority, the SD programming getting second dibs, and any other programming getting whatever is left over. That is probably how KOCE has things set -- and the result is what you see on 50-3.

NASA dropped their analog C-band feed on July 1st. However, they are transmitting a bouquet of feeds on AMC-6 (at least four different programs) that can be received with a DVB-S receiver (and a satellite dish). The quality of those digital signals, for me, is superior to the old analog feed. If KOCE wanted to continue offering the NASA Select Channel, it would be neither difficult nor expensive to accomplish. (DVB receivers are available on E-bay for as little as $39. I know because I bought one!)

Take care,
Don

Only the "Big Four" stations in top 100 markets are required to go to full power by 1 July 2005. All others have until 1 July 2006.
So even though they might have submitted a full power Change Proposal, they may or may not be upgrading at this time.
Apparently the only way we know is by a preponderance of forum users reporting significant improvement....

That would explain why all of a sudden this week the reception for most stations have improved.

But wind and airplanes still cause a lot of drop outs.

-Ed

koce freaked out last night and changed from 50 to 48??? pq was also very poor

anyone else get this?

I couldn't get 50 KOCE in last night, so you may be right.

-Ed

I am moving to Downey. I plugged in my new address into antennaweb.org and I am 21.9 miles from Mt. Wilson transmitters for all OTA locals (yellow UHF range). In theory, can I get away with a Silver Sensor for my local channels? Thanks.

Probably. I use the antenna that came with my HDTV Wonder, which appears to be a Silver Sensor, and it works for all the stations on the dial, although I have to do some creative placement for some of the lesser stations like KXLA and KLCS. But the network affiliates all come in very well. I live in Pomona, further out than you are.

Friend in Cerritos (several miles farther than Downey) uses a crappy indoor antenna and gets all OTA fine. Uses with Directv hd unit & works great. The SS should be better than the cheapo one he has, so would guess you'd be ok for sure, but of course YMMV.

That is great news. I was getting ready to go out and buy a more expensive rooftop antenna. Before I do that, I think I will put my Silver Sensor in the attic and hook it up and see what happens. Glad to see it is at least worth the effort. Thanks for the feedback.

So I was watching all the live Rancho Palos Verdes fire coverage on KABC yesterday and kept waiting for the much advertised Air-7 HD helicopter to show up...I never saw it. Is it still in service? I much enjoyed the car chases, shootouts, etc. in HD. Cheers.

bmwf1techie,

Remember YMMV though, depending on the MtWilson gods. Although antennaweb was helpful, I've learned it's a lot of trial and error with antenna stuff.

So I was watching all the live Rancho Palos Verdes fire coverage on KABC yesterday and kept waiting for the much advertised Air-7 HD helicopter to show up...I never saw it. Is it still in service? I much enjoyed the car chases, shootouts, etc. in HD. Cheers.

There are FAR more advertisements for it than actual uses of it. :confused:

bmwf1techie,

Remember YMMV though, depending on the MtWilson gods. Although antennaweb was helpful, I've learned it's a lot of trial and error with antenna stuff.

gohd,

YMMV?

gohd,

YMMV?

Your Miles May Vary

YMMV=don't blame me if it doesn't work

HA! Got it. I don't move into the house until the 1st of the month. I will report my results. Thanks.

I just ordered or actualy won an ebay bid for a CM-7775 pre-amp from SolidSigmal.com. The regular internet price was $53.99 but my winning bid was only $40.99 + 6.95 shipping. So I think I got a pretty good deal.

I am hoping that I will be able to get a more stable signal form the LA Digital channels. I live about 55 miles to the east in Moreno Valley and put up a roof mounted CM4228 with about 50ft rg6 lead in and an old rat shack rotor. Currently I can get several of the LA stations on a hit and miss bases but my signal fades often especialy at nite to levels that will not stay locked in. I have read so many posts regarding the pros and cons of using a pre-amp that I am not sure if this will solve my problems or cause new ones. I have read that a pre-amp can cause overdriveing problems if you have any local stations that are to close and this will kill all the others. I have one PBS station that is about 20 miles out that concerns me it is on UHF 26.1 and is much stronger than any of the LA stations. I have been looking for some sort of single channel attenuator or trap but have not yet found anything that might work. I am wondering if a UHF tilt compensator might work since the station in question is the lowest frequency that I use for digital TV. The specs on the cm-7775 say it has 26 db gain and a maximum output of 51 db. I have no idea if the levels that are reported by my capture card are accurate but it is a Fusion 5 hdtv lite card and it reports the level of this Pbs channel @ +- 25db or 80%. This is the highest level of any of the other channels which range from barely anything to about 18db.
I guess I am just thinking out loud and will find out soon enough when I get it but I would like any feedback or suggestions as to what to expect or try next.
Thanks, Dave

Based on your report and the components that you've assembled, I'd say you've done the best you can up to this point. That pre-amp is supposed to be one of the best so, if anything can help your situation, it should.

Since you've done such a good documenting your situation at this point, I hope you'll post the results once you've added the pre-amp and comment on what has improved and what has not.

As for attenuating KVCR's digital signal, I haven't run across anything for the consumer market. It is possible to build one but you'll want to see if such a device is really necessary once the pre-amp is installed. (The ARRL Handbook -- available at most public libraries and good book stores -- details the construction of many different types of RF filters.)

If it is any consolation to you, I see fading of my digital signals too -- and I'm in line-of-sight of and only about 15 air miles from Mt. Wilson.

Take care,
Don

Anybody having a problem getting KCET? I'm receiving an off-air signal, but I'm getting no picture or video on 28-1 and 28-2 via D* Samsung tuner.

It is 11:16 AM and KCET's digital signals look fine here at this time. If there was a problem three hours ago, I wouldn't know about it.

Take care,
Don

Anybody having a problem getting KCET? I'm receiving an off-air signal, but I'm getting no picture or video on 28-1 and 28-2 via D* Samsung tuner.Can't comment firsthand, but I do know that my two VCR's whose clocks are automatically set from the clock signal sent out by KCET on channel 28 (UHF analog) were about 7 hours off early this morning.

When I initiated the process to have them re-set at around 7AM this morning, both were unable to find the clock signal.

Perhaps they're doing some maintenance which is affecting digital 28-1/2 as well.

By this afternoon the clock signal had returned, and my forced re-set for both VCR's was successful.

However I've been having a KCET/28 clock signal problem for several weeks now, and Viewer Services says that the engineers say nothing is wrong. I, of course, disagree. At least several times every day it appears they're emitting a clock signal which is 59 minutes behind true realtime, causing both of my VCR's to automatically reset to a clock value that is 59 minutes behind realtime. And, oddly, they do not correct themselves automatically.

But if I notice that the clocks are wrong, and force them manually to re-set based on the current channel 28 clock signal, sure enough 9 times out of 10 they will get the right time. Sometimes they fail totally(seeing no channel 28 clock signal at all), and sometimes they actually reset to the incorrect 59 minute slow time value (indicating that this incorrect value is actually still going out).

All very strange. And still unresolved.

Anybody else experiencing this same strangeness on channel 28 clock signal?

Your Miles May VaryI've always thought it was "your mileage may vary". But obviously the same point.

What is up with ABC's "Air 7 HD"? I keep tuning in and only their SD helicopter camera is being used. They had a great opportunity last Fri evening when a Big Rig was hijacked. C'mon ABC, get with it, you sure promote the hell outta it!

Also on the topic of our public TV stations, why is it that the PQ on OTA KCET (28.1) & KOCE (50.2) HD become very pixelated during fast motion (e.g. running water, fast moving background, etc)? I have the same signal strength as any other channel, but without this same problem. Am I doing something wrong, or is it just a weaker source signal.

Can't comment firsthand, but I do know that my two VCR's whose clocks are automatically set from the clock signal sent out by KCET on channel 28 (UHF analog) were about 7 hours off early this morning.

When I initiated the process to have them re-set at around 7AM this morning, both were unable to find the clock signal.

Perhaps they're doing some maintenance which is affecting digital 28-1/2 as well.

By this afternoon the clock signal had returned, and my forced re-set for both VCR's was successful.

However I've been having a KCET/28 clock signal problem for several weeks now, and Viewer Services says that the engineers say nothing is wrong. I, of course, disagree. At least several times every day it appears they're emitting a clock signal which is 59 minutes behind true realtime, causing both of my VCR's to automatically reset to a clock value that is 59 minutes behind realtime. And, oddly, they do not correct themselves automatically.

But if I notice that the clocks are wrong, and force them manually to re-set based on the current channel 28 clock signal, sure enough 9 times out of 10 they will get the right time. Sometimes they fail totally(seeing no channel 28 clock signal at all), and sometimes they actually reset to the incorrect 59 minute slow time value (indicating that this incorrect value is actually still going out).

All very strange. And still unresolved.

Anybody else experiencing this same strangeness on channel 28 clock signal?


I am having some problems with the KCET clock, but nothing like what you have described. What I am seeing is that the clock will be consistently 2 minutes fast. I have to put the VCR in manual mode to keep from cutting off programs at the end. When I reenable auto mode, the 2 minute difference returns.

Lee

Anybody having a problem getting KCET? I'm receiving an off-air signal, but I'm getting no picture or video on 28-1 and 28-2 via D* Samsung tuner.

I had been receiving KCET-D with no problems until several weeks ago and then nothing. Using a Hughes HTL-HD with a Winegard PR-4400. I wrote KCET and received the following reply.

"First, let me tell you that you're not alone with your problem. Both your unit and the RCA that DirecTV uses are having this problem. We believe that you are suffering from and overloaded first component in the receiver. Due to the other stations changing to their full power ratings as you noted, (ours has been maximized for quite some time) it may seem like our station is low on power. We are only licensed to run 340Kw whereas the big network stations and others lower in the band have been authorized to run at 1Mw.

What does this mean for you you ask? Well, this causes the receiver to attenuate for the overload of signals it is receiving from both the existing analog stations and the now high power digital stations to effectively wipe out other stations such as our digital channel. Your antenna choice is excellent by the way, if not a little overkill. I suggest going to a store such as Radio Shack or an experienced electronics dealer in your area and purchasing one or two 6dB pads. Pads will reduce the signal strength going into your receiver circuit and allow it to differentiate between available signals much better. Try one 6db (you can always try anything from 3-10db if that's all that is available, but 6db gives your a drop of 1/4 gain to the receiver and is a good starting
point) pad and see what results that gets you. If that doesn't cut it, then add another. The idea is to add just enough attenuation before your receiver to allow it to see everything while not cutting too much signal strength and losing some stations altogether.

I know this sounds like a lot of experimenting on your part, but it an unfortunate by-product of having so many television stations on the air at one time. Once analog (NTSC) television goes away, we in the broadcast community feel that this problem will be remedied for the most part and receivers will have a much easier time with available transmissions.

I apologize if my explanation is lengthy, but since you were so thorough with your information I figured you had the right to get the "straight skinny" as it were. I hope you have some degree of success with the remedy I have suggested so you can continue to enjoy our programming.

Please feel free to contact me and let me know how it works out for you.

Best Regards,

Jeremy Howard
RF and Transmission Supervisor
jhoward@kcet.org"

I tried a 6db and it did not help. Waitin for LIL.

However I've been having a KCET/28 clock signal problem for several weeks now, and Viewer Services says that the engineers say nothing is wrong. I, of course, disagree. At least several times every day it appears they're emitting a clock signal which is 59 minutes behind true realtime, causing both of my VCR's to automatically reset to a clock value that is 59 minutes behind realtime. And, oddly, they do not correct themselves automatically.I believe I have conquered this one. Read that OVERCOME the problem, not really "resolved" the problem.

On a hunch, I changed my "AUTO" setting for Daylight Saving Time (which relies on KCET for their DST trigger signal in addition to date/time) to "ON" (which accepts only date/time from KCET and then uses internal VCR logic to decide if DST applies).

Sure enough, the clock now sets itself accurately and STAYS ACCURATE!

It would appear there's a problem with the DST signal coming from KCET, and I've emailed them. But for now, my VCR clocks are once again stable and accurate.

Whew!!

I believe I have conquered this one. It would appear there's a problem with the DST signal coming from KCET, and I've emailed them. But for now, my VCR clocks are once again stable and accurate.Well... nonsense.

It took a few hours, but my VCRs reverted to being 59 minutes slow again sometime this afternoon.

I guess it's hopeless. It's apparently not the DST setting. It's obviously an intermittent clock signal from KCET.

Oh well.

Hi, I live in Arcadia, CA 91007. I currently only have analog cable from Adelphia. I would like watch HD programming on my HDTV. what are the best options I have? I did some search here and seems like Adelphia is not really a good option in my area. I know I can watch HD channels with ATSC Tuner and OTA antenna. Any recommendation on HD programming in my local area, or even on the tuner/antenna? Thanks in advance.

PM sent, assang.

What is up with ABC's "Air 7 HD"? I keep tuning in and only their SD helicopter camera is being used. They had a great opportunity last Fri evening when a Big Rig was hijacked. C'mon ABC, get with it, you sure promote the hell outta it!

I mentioned this last week. My wife now knows to yell "it's not HD" everytime they play the 'breaking news' jingle as I make my Pavlovian sprint towards the TV. Maybe it broke? Maintenance?? Wassup ABC???

As of last night my experience was that the clocks for most channels are correct within two minutes. However channel 4 's clock is 12 minutes slow. KCET's clock is off by 11 hours. When I record channel 4 or other channels I can compensate. However if I recorded KCET I don't know if I even have the correct day.

Rick R

I too notice that the clocks are different on all channels and are sometimes all over the place

as for channel 28 KCET, it pixelates for me too,

and the ohter day on 28-2, it had the voice over/person reading along with/describing the program -- which I think is a service for the visually impaired-- that has actually happend a few times with them.

I finally made the jump to HDTV today and purchased a Sony XBR960. Since Adelphia is both morally and financially bankrupt, I am looking for advice on what I need to get OTA HDTV in the Eastbluff NB area.

Thanks in advance

As of last night my experience was that the clocks for most channels are correct within two minutes. However channel 4 's clock is 12 minutes slow. KCET's clock is off by 11 hours. When I record channel 4 or other channels I can compensate. However if I recorded KCET I don't know if I even have the correct day.

Rick R


Yesterday I checked KCET's clock as my recordings have been starting and ending two minutes early. I set it manually to correct time and let the machine reset on KCET's clock. I went right back to two minutes early.

Lee

I've always thought it was "your mileage may vary". But obviously the same point.

You are correct! :eek:

Is there a chronic voice/video sync problem with some of the LA stations or is it my system?

Very often there is a noticeable difference between the sound and the accompanying video. Not real big, just big enough to notice. Last night, for example, we were watching a travel show about Barcelona on 28-1 and the voice and video were not quite together. Several weeks ago we watched an Eagles concert on 4-1 and the effect was very noticeable because of the predictability of the music.

I didn't see the travel show but I watched and recorded the Eagles concert on my Panasonic DVR. No sync problems during that concert (Farewell Concert 1) -- recorded from the HD feed (LG LST-4200A receiver) although the result is only SD.

In reply to the person with the problems with the clock, I don't use VCRs anymore but my Panasonic DVRs get their time signal from that same channel 28 signal. I've had absolutely no problems with the clocks; in fact, they seem to be extremely accurate.

Take care,
Don

Is there a chronic voice/video sync problem with some of the LA stations or is it my system?

Very often there is a noticeable difference between the sound and the accompanying video. Not real big, just big enough to notice. Last night, for example, we were watching a travel show about Barcelona on 28-1 and the voice and video were not quite together. Several weeks ago we watched an Eagles concert on 4-1 and the effect was very noticeable because of the predictability of the music.

I've noticed various sync issues on many HD channels. It's not consistent but can drive me nuts. I used to project film and I spot those things all the time.

I've got the same receiver (LG LST-4200A) that you have. It feeds directly into my Optoma RD-65 through the digital port. The audio comes through the optical port into a Harman Kardon receiver, then to the speakers.

Is it possible/likely that there is a propagation delay in the audio?

If this is the way it's going to be it'll drive me nuts too.

I just thought you guys might want to know (just did a Tivo Wishlist Search) that a show called "PC World's Digital Duo," about HDTV's will be on this Friday the 22nd @ 9:30pm (1/2 hour show) PDT on Ch. 24 Los Angeles (PBS-KVCR [Riverside]). According to the guide, it originally aired on May 22, 2005, but it's new to me (lol). FORGIVE me if there is *ANY information (the *Time) is misprinted. I can't double check right now because my mom is watching the TV.

I'll update any info if needed ASAP.

Thanks for your time! - Matthew.

Based on your report and the components that you've assembled, I'd say you've done the best you can up to this point. That pre-amp is supposed to be one of the best so, if anything can help your situation, it should.

Since you've done such a good documenting your situation at this point, I hope you'll post the results once you've added the pre-amp and comment on what has improved and what has not.

As for attenuating KVCR's digital signal, I haven't run across anything for the consumer market. It is possible to build one but you'll want to see if such a device is really necessary once the pre-amp is installed. (The ARRL Handbook -- available at most public libraries and good book stores -- details the construction of many different types of RF filters.)

If it is any consolation to you, I see fading of my digital signals too -- and I'm in line-of-sight of and only about 15 air miles from Mt. Wilson.

Take care,
Don

Well I got home last evening and there was a package from Solid signal from UPS. So I got out the ladder and jumped up on the roof and inserted the CM 7775 pre-amp between 6ft of antenna lead and 50 ft of down lead and then plugged in the indoor model.
I anxiosly turned on my PC and loaded the Fushion 5 software and started tunning in the LA digital channels. The first channel I tuned was 24.1 which is a local pbs that I am worried is will over drive my other channel. Well it plays fine but is its signal is slightly level is slightly worse than before adding the pre-amp. so then I tune to 31.1 KTLA, no lock 30% signal reported, 36.1 knbc no lock signal reported. H'mm I used to get those on a pretty regular bases with only an occaisional drop out. Then I tuned to 43.1 Kcal, locked 70% signal, thats good I hardly ever got thet one. 53.1 ABC, Locked 77% signal, good THat one was hit and miss before. 60.1 CBS I never could get a lock before now its 80%. 65.1 KTTV 75% whid is about 5% bette than before. I also tuned in a coule of other PBS feeds in the 50/s range btu was mostly just checking for the locals for now.
So here is my situation. The pre-amp seems to have inproved all the higher frequency channels from 43.1 and above but hurt my lower frequencys. I think its do to some high levels in the uhf 24-26 range from my only close in local PBS feed thats not on MT Wilson. So now I need to figure out how to attenuate just those channels without loossing the rest. I am going to try putting a 3 or 6db attenuator at the input of the pre-amp or at the output of it and see if just a small amount of attenuation will work but I think I need to find another solution.
Any Ideas
Thanks, Dave

What do you mean by 6' of antenna lead? To get the most out of your antenna, reduce the number of connectors (splices). If you have two sections of coax, try reducing it to one with the pre-amp (if required) attached directly to the antenna.

From your previous post, I believe every bit of coax is RG-6, right? If not, use RG-6 or better coax everywhere.

In addition to KVCR (channel 24)(26-DTV), you may be receiving a strong signal from KPXN, channel 30 (38-DTV). I believe their transmitter is east of Mt. Wilson.

The problem that you might have from a straight attenuator is that it will reduce all signals; what is weak (like KTLA, channel 5, 31-DTV) will be even weaker.

Obviously, something is not right if channel 5 was there before the pre-amp was installed but not receivable after installing the pre-amp. If channel 5 is weak because it is sandwiched between 26 and 38, then some form of selective attenuation will be necessary.

Ideally, what you need is a low-Q device with two tunable (or fixed) notch filters. The low-Q will ensure a small reduction in the targeted signals (channels 26 and 38) while passing all other frequencies. The cost of a commercial device meeting those specs would be prohibitive. Your best bet would be to build your own.

Take care,
Don

Too bad they are not showing that here. Hope it turns out to be a good show.

DTV SIGNAL OVERLOAD CALCULATION: Minimum Distance to the Transmitter Site

Here is an Excel spread sheet that calculates how close to a transmitter site
you can use various Preamps before you have to worry about not only Preamp overload,
but also overdriving the input of your HDTV/STB.

I included all Blonder-Tongue, Channel Master and Winegard Preamps plus a
Scientific Atlanta 562775F CATV Two-Way Distribution Amplifier that just happens to have come
from my spare parts drawer and fortuitiously has excellent distortion specs when used
on CATV systems, a low (15 dB) gain that will boost my signal just enough to overcome
the downlead coax loss and a very low (2.4 dB) Noise Figure to provide excellent
sensitivity.

======================================================
davefre99: It appears that the CM7775 helped some channels and made others much worse.
If you punch your distances into the spreadsheet, you'll see that the INPUT
to the Preamp is way too high for the CM7775 and also that the high gain of this
unit can saturate the Preamp's output stage. And whatever gets through saturates HDTV/STB input.

You might try a variable RF Attenuator (see R-S) prior to the Preamp to see
what value provides the best overall success.
Another one might also be needed on the Preamp output.

I would suggest a much lower gain Preamp, such as the 19 dB WG AP4700.

The Radio Shack variable gain Preamp would also be worth trying, although R-S avoids
publishing specs for their products. [Maybe because they really are that bad???]

I haven't researched very many low Noise Figure, low gain (10-15 dB) CATV Drop Amps,
other than the one I have, which seems better than the typical CATV Drop Amp.
Disadvantage is that it can't be located outside.

DrDenton & holl_ands,
Thanks for the repsonses.
I tried putting a 6db attenuator inline before the preamp and it made no difference at all. I also tried it at the tuner input and the same thing. I did notice that Knbc 36.1 I could get to come in but not stay locked 100% by turning my antenna with the rotor but it seems to be picking up a bounced signal or someting because its about 20 deg out of alignment with the other MT Wison signals. I have a couple of other things I might try like running RG-11 cable with no pre-amp just to see if it makes any difference over straight rg-6 cable.
I work with cable distribution all the time as I am a low voltage C-7 contractor. My specialty is distance learning Satellite Systems so I understand cable loss and signal balancing. I have limited experience with digital OTA signals though. In my world we usually use modulated signals and single channel strip amps that have built in notch filtering for adjacent channel rejection. I am not sure how you would ballance a digital only headend system. So all this is sort of a working experiment for me. I might pick up a winegard-4700 preamp from my local distributor and try it out as suggested by holl_ands. I will not get much chance to do anything else until I get back from vacation in a couple of weeks.

Last nite just before going to bed I decided to rotate my antenna to the south just to see if I coudl get any San Diego signals and a wierd thing happened. No I could not get any San Diego signal and I did not surprise me but !. All of a suddend when my antenna was pointing nearly due south the LA stations became available and not just one but all of them. I mean I was getting every channel known to man in the LA area it seems like.
At first I thouhgt it must be some kind of freaky propagation or multipath but I get up this morning and try it again and There still there. I even get signals like 66.1 Kcop and 61.1 Kcet and all the lower channels that were not coming in with the antenna pointed directly at MT Wilson are coming in better than I have ever seen them. Is it possile that I am pickin up a better signal off the side lobe of this Cm4228 antenna or is it more likely I just found the right rock to pick a bounced signal off of. All of the signal seem to be in the 70-80% range and a reported 17-22db.
Got to go to work but will anxiosly be waiting any comments.
Dave

I think a first order guess is that you needed alot more attenuation the the 6dB pad was providing. Since the antenna front to back ratio is in the 20-30 dB range, try this: turn the antenna back to Mt. Wilson, take out the preamp. Check. If it is still not acceptable, get either a variable pad or a pad that will knock the signal down in the 15-20 dB range.

Lee

davefre99: Everything sounds consistent with overload from A-KVCR.

Here is DTV OVERLOAD CALC, REVB which has been tailored for a CM-4228 at your location.
The analog KVCR station is on nearly the same line of bearing as Mt Wilson.
Consequently, antennaweb.org predicts that you will not receive those stations.

Of course, antennaweb doesn't include techniques such as pointing an antenna null towards
San Bern/Mt Wilson and then trying to receive the back-bounce signal off the hills
just south of you (if in fact that is the propagation mode).

The W-G AP-4700 overload spec point will be exceeded by a few dB, which may or may
not be satisfactory. Being only 8 miles from a transmitter site has it's drawbacks.
You still might want to try that 6 dB attenuator on the AP-4700's input to see if it helps.

The AP-4700 has 19 dB of gain which will overdrive the HDTV/STB input.
So be sure to insert a variable RF attenuator prior to the HDTV/STB.

I included overload calculations for NO PREAMP case as well as Preamps from B-T, C-M and W-G.

Refer to my more extensive DTV FADE MARGIN CALC, REVB spread sheet if you
want to investigate the likelihood of distant reception:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/2846.html?1121987460

Last nite just before going to bed I decided to rotate my antenna to the south just to see if I coudl get any San Diego signals and a wierd thing happened. No I could not get any San Diego signal and I did not surprise me but !. All of a suddend when my antenna was pointing nearly due south the LA stations became available and not just one but all of them. I mean I was getting every channel known to man in the LA area it seems like.
At first I thouhgt it must be some kind of freaky propagation or multipath but I get up this morning and try it again and There still there. I even get signals like 66.1 Kcop and 61.1 Kcet and all the lower channels that were not coming in with the antenna pointed directly at MT Wilson are coming in better than I have ever seen them. Is it possile that I am pickin up a better signal off the side lobe of this Cm4228 antenna or is it more likely I just found the right rock to pick a bounced signal off of. All of the signal seem to be in the 70-80% range and a reported 17-22db.
Got to go to work but will anxiosly be waiting any comments.
Dave

Even better idea. Point the antenna where it works best, lock it down call it a day. I usually stop troubleshooting when I have success. Unless of course, you like playing with all this crap.

Even better idea. Point the antenna where it works best, lock it down call it a day. I usually stop troubleshooting when I have success. Unless of course, you like playing with all this crap.

This is kind of a self educating process for me as I am in a related field of work as a Satellite & Low voltage contractor. Where better to learn than on your own equipment and compared to what I usualy work on its not terribly expensive. I can get antenna, cable and amps at wholesale and I dont charge myself much for labor. LOL

Dave

davefre99: Everything sounds consistent with overload from A-KVCR.

Here is DTV OVERLOAD CALC, REVB which has been tailored for a CM-4228 at your location.
The analog KVCR station is on nearly the same line of bearing as Mt Wilson.
Consequently, antennaweb.org predicts that you will not receive those stations.

Of course, antennaweb doesn't include techniques such as pointing an antenna null towards
San Bern/Mt Wilson and then trying to receive the back-bounce signal off the hills
just south of you (if in fact that is the propagation mode).

The W-G AP-4700 overload spec point will be exceeded by a few dB, which may or may
not be satisfactory. Being only 8 miles from a transmitter site has it's drawbacks.
You still might want to try that 6 dB attenuator on the AP-4700's input to see if it helps.

The AP-4700 has 19 dB of gain which will overdrive the HDTV/STB input.
So be sure to insert a variable RF attenuator prior to the HDTV/STB.

I included overload calculations for NO PREAMP case as well as Preamps from B-T, C-M and W-G.

Refer to my more extensive DTV FADE MARGIN CALC, REVB spread sheet if you
want to investigate the likelihood of distant reception:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/2846.html?1121987460

Looked over your spreadsheet and dont fully understand all of it but I did get the jist of what you are refering to. I especialy read your comments section pertaining to my location.
I am not sure if I am getting a bounced signal off the hills to the south of me or not because the antenna is not pointed quit at them and there is a big tree directly infront of the antenna in my front yard. I think I actualy am receiveing my signals off the side lobe of the cm4228 as it is virtualy 90 degrees off axes to Mt Wilson. It appears that there is enough attenuation of ch 24 & 26 I point it just right to allow the other channels to co-exist. I am almost wondering if a smaller antenna like the 4221 would not be more suitable as well as using the W-G 4700 preamp. I also wonder if just running RG-11 down lead and leaving the pre-amp out might work using the CM4228.
The good news is I have it working in this configuration even if its not the way it was intended.
Thanks holl_ands for all your help.
Dave

When KABC-HD shows its local SD programming, they show it stretched out horizontally, and chopped off on the top and bottom, so it uses more of the widescreen real estate. I really hate this.

The other networks just show the correct aspect ratio with black or grey bars on the side.

A lot of TVs will have options to skew/scale a 4:3 SD picture to use more of the widescreen display.

I really prefer having the mpeg come in at the correct aspect ratio because then you have the option of viewing it 1:1 or doing whatever display options you have on the TV end.

In my opinion, Fox is much better at doing 720p.

Sending out the encoded mpeg at the wrong PAR is stupid.

KTLA does this also for some of their shows, but not as much.

could not get KLCS 58 this weekend and KCBS 2 was flipping between 2.1 and 60.1

anyone else find this?

[havent tried yet today]

I still don't understand why 16x9 TVs have that stretch feature. Who uses this? Why stretch a picture? Are wide flat objects interesting somehow? To each his own. It's like puting the mayo in the freezer and serving it solid. It's great that you can, but why would you? I just don't get it. Cheers.

I still don't understand why 16x9 TVs have that stretch feature. Who uses this? Why stretch a picture? Are wide flat objects interesting somehow? To each his own. It's like puting the mayo in the freezer and serving it solid. It's great that you can, but why would you? I just don't get it. Cheers.
I doubt anyone likes to do it, but some are afraid of burn-in. Personally, I'd rather take the slim chance of burn-in (since I vary my programming a lot) and keep 4:3 shows as is, unstretched in 'wide' mode.

KNBC-HD is messing up their HDTV broadcasts. Randomly, some segments are in SD. It usually starts in HD, and will swap to SD after a commercial break. After that, it may go back to HD after another commercial break. Why can't they stick to HD during the HD broadcasts? This is happening throughout primetime and late night (Leno, Conan).

Is this a network problem, or a problem with the station?

This has been happening the last few days, maybe some new guys are working there.

KNBC-HD is messing up their HDTV broadcasts. Randomly, some segments are in SD. It usually starts in HD, and will swap to SD after a commercial break. After that, it may go back to HD after another commercial break. Why can't they stick to HD during the HD broadcasts? This is happening throughout primetime and late night (Leno, Conan).

Is this a network problem, or a problem with the station?

It happened during the Tennis match on Sunday, too.

I still don't understand why 16x9 TVs have that stretch feature. Who uses this? Why stretch a picture? Are wide flat objects interesting somehow? To each his own. It's like puting the mayo in the freezer and serving it solid. It's great that you can, but why would you? I just don't get it. Cheers.
(Especially in the bad old days,) some DVD players couldn't stretch anamorphically-compressed material. It was up to the display to correct for that.

KNBC-HD keeps messing up. someone needs to call them up.

I noticed NBC too and was wondering if anyone else was going to bring it up. I just sent an email from their website so we'll see if I get a response.

With so many goof-ups when switching HD/SD content, is there physically some guy/gal at the station that has to flip the switch at the end/beginning of a commercial? I just always imagined that one person getting caught in the restroom or eating or snoozing or whatever, and just plain forgetting to flip the switch back&forth b/w HD & SD. Just a layman's thought.

With so many goof-ups when switching HD/SD content, is there physically some guy/gal at the station that has to flip the switch at the end/beginning of a commercial? I just always imagined that one person getting caught in the restroom or eating or snoozing or whatever, and just plain forgetting to flip the switch back&forth b/w HD & SD. Just a layman's thought.

I always envision hamsters on a running wheel in a cage! :D

I think others have said that there is actually someone that flips the switch, although I would think things would be more automated by now. I think the hamsters are used only when we get a blackout!:)

I got a reply but I assume he didn't understand what I meant because he mentioned the commercial switches so I wrote back and we'll see what he says next.

Yeah, this KNBC switching between SD and HD is getting annoying. The opposite problem is them not switching to local commercials and thus us getting either the NBC peacock on a black screen where the local inserts are suppose to be, or Leno's splash screen with the band playing. That problem happened previously and I think led to the current problem of not switching from SD upconversion (after local commercials) to NBC HD West. Seems like KNBC isn't happy that their switcher is not letting local commercials go through so they forced the local commercial to go on w/o getting us back to the HD feed. Makes watching HD worthless just to have SD commercials play through.

I'm getting replies back(thanks NBC). Does anyone remember when the switching started happening? I knew it was this Mon and Tues, but I forgot that it happened last week as well. TonyW79SFV- The splash screen you're referring to- was that the one of the Santa Monica Pier and was on for over a minute and you could hear the band playing in the background? I remembered that, but forgot what day it was. I was timeshifting so not sure exactly how long it lasted, but it was over a minute for sure. If anyone else knows what day that happened it would help. It's nice to know someone is trying to help us out at NBC. I'll guess we'll see if they've fixed anything tonight...

I'm getting replies back(thanks NBC). Does anyone remember when the switching started happening? I knew it was this Mon and Tues, but I forgot that it happened last week as well. TonyW79SFV- The splash screen you're referring to- was that the one of the Santa Monica Pier and was on for over a minute and you could hear the band playing in the background? I remembered that, but forgot what day it was. I was timeshifting so not sure exactly how long it lasted, but it was over a minute for sure. If anyone else knows what day that happened it would help. It's nice to know someone is trying to help us out at NBC. I'll guess we'll see if they've fixed anything tonight...

Seems to me about 1 week or so ... not exactly sure about the day but it started happening maybe last week. Maybe someone is on vacation.