Because of terrain, my prospects for successful DTV reception didn't seem good. A few weeks back, I searched archives in this forum for threads about local installations.

Inspired by a few threads in the archives, I recently installed an OTA antenna for my Dish 6000 to receive the local Los Angeles DTV broadcasts. I don't have clear line of sight to Mount Wilson, which is 46 miles distant. (For local readers familiar with the area, I'm in hilly terrain above the intersection of Trabuco Road and Lake Forest Drive in Lake Forest.) There's a ridge 0.3 miles away that's 44 feet higher than the elevation at my house, as measured with a GPS. Plus, the ridge has trees and 2-story apartments, offset somewhat since my roof-mounted antenna is 25 feet off the ground. Beyond the ridge, there's nothing else in the way.

I installed a Radio Shack 15-2160 yagi with one of their 30dB mast-mounted pre-amps. I used a Winegard DS-3000 J-pipe mount that's securely bolted to the fascia on the eave of my roof line. This mount is nearly identical to the mounts that come standard with Dish Network SATV dishes, except the pipe is longer and can be cut to length. I found this mount online at dishplace.com. Starkelectronics.com sells them for less, but was out of stock.

I've had mixed results with DTV reception... KABC, KNBC, KTLA(WB) are consistently in the high 70s to high 80s. KCET(PBS) is usually in the low to mid 60s and exhibits occasional dropouts. KCOP(UPN) is often 55 to 65 and also exhibits some dropouts. Most of the time, I can't receive KCBS or KTTV(FOX) at all. I've never received a KCAL9 (local independent) DTV broadcast, but I haven't performed automatic DTV searches since the antenna installation, either. Numerous Hispanic stations have strong DTV signal levels, but these don't interest me. There is some variation in signal consitions, as would be expected.

I'm not confident that my antenna orientation is optumum, either. For work, I occasionally rent a spectrum analyzer. Sure wish I had one now to help with antenna orientation! Or, that Telemann HiPix HTPC card that can show concurrent receive signal levels for all DTV stations!!

Regarding picture quality...
I noticed that even SD OTA broadcasts are significantly better than the corresponding local station broadcasts from Dish Network. I suspect that Dish is compressing signal bandwidth more than the local OTA transmitters.

I believe KABC is broadcasting 720i format while the others are boradcasting 1080i. Right? Does this explain why KABC SD fills the screen while the other stations' SD has bands at the sides?

Lessons learned...
I'll mention a few antenna complications I encountered. A warning might help others...

1. Until halfway through the installation process, I realized that some stations don't broadcast DTV 24/7 - KCET(PBS) for one, maybe there are other stations. It's hard to find stations that aren't broadcasting!! (duh)

2. I used the u-bolt clamp that comes with the Shadio Rack Yagi, and it was a tight fit over the Winegard mast. This presented some problems. I used a compass to initially aim the antenna boom, then noticed that the azimuth would change when tightening the two u-bolt nuts! Tighten the rear-facing nut, and the antenna boom would turn to the left. Tighten the front nut, and the boom would move right! This was not a minor effect. I had to keep checking azimuth with the compass, and carefully alternate tightening. Even then it was not an exact, known azimuth adjustment.

3. Before mounting the antenna, I used a bubble level to make sure the mast pipe was plumb. I was surprised that this did not assure consistent antenna elevation because of the antenna's u-bolt clamp! After numerous trials with strange results, I discovered that antenna elevation was changing significantly with each azimuth adjustment. Finally, I ended up setting elevation after each azimuth adjustment by (a) loosening the J-pipe at the mounting plate, (b) reading a bubble level laid on the antenna boom while tilting the mast as necessary to get the desired elevation, and (c) tightening the J-pipe mount with an eye on the bubble level to make sure it stays at the desired tilt. Once the J-pipe mount was tight, the elevation was rock solid.

4. Due to problems 2 and 3 above, I wasted two hours making small antenna adjustments with large introduced errors. Only the last few trials had reliable azimuth and elevation settings. Since rain was threatening when I performed my antenna adjustments, I need another round of tests to optimize antenna orientation. Then, I'll consider next steps.

The RS Yagi is quite sensitive to orientation. From my house, the azimuth spread is only a quarter degree to cover all operating DTV stations on Mt Wilson. The KCBS tower is offset from the others (as seen from my house) accounting for roughly half of this spread. This might explain why I rarely "see" KCBS.

The Radio Shack yagi specs do not provide a gain/azimuth plot, but I'd expect this antenna to have a narrow frontal lobe. I am surprised how sensitive some DTV stations are to antenna orientation, while others seem insensitive.

I used the lat-lon coordinates at http://100kwatts.tmi.net/tv/LAX.html and an online geodetic distance calculator (dead link today) to compute the azimuth to each local DTV antenna. This showed me the spatial relationship between the stations as they range from WNW to NNW, as viewed from my house, which explains how antenna azimuth adjustment might change reception for the various stations.

I have wondered if all these stations are operating at their full licensed output power.

Comment on Radio Shack equipment: In the past I designed products that were sold by RS. Their specifications and acceptance criteria are significantly higher than most people would assume. Their products are probably suitable for many applications, and there's no reason to spend more unless it's necessary. That yagi retails for $21.99, an inexpensive experiment.

I realize my installation my be pushing the envelope due to marginal OTA conditions. If ongoing experiments with antenna orientation don't improve my OTA reception, I might consider a better antenna and/or ChannelMaster UHF-only pre-amp.

All comments welcome...
Gary

Gary,

Hi. Welcome to the world of OTA DTV reception in south Orange County. The one thing you can count on in this area is that everybody's situation is different. I am in a
small valley with nearby hills all around in Mission Viejo,
about 55 miles from Mount Wilson. I am able to get all the LA stations with varying signal strengths using a combination of 2 small indoor yagi antennas (Silver Sensor).
One is actually mounted outside and uses a pre-amp. The other is indoors pointed out an upstairs window. I am able
to get KCBS most reliably with the indoor antenna at 93-100
signal strength on the Hughes E86 receiver. I get channels 5,11,13 from indoors as well. The other stations I get from
the outdoor combo. A group of other HDTV enthusiasts from the area have been getting together to share experiences and
work on each individuals reception issues. Send me a PM if you want some more information.

Bruce

Hi there guys.. I am in the North Orange County area and I am just getting ready to get HD into my house. I did a quick test with a small tv with rabbit ears and I can get KCET. I need to get an antenna as was wondering what the best one is to get. First place I am going to mount is just above the TV. I need to mount it into an attic environment. Any suggestion on what is a good antenna. I dont want one of those large ones..

Unfortunately, Radio Shack antennas don't work on the higher UHF channels like 60 (KCBS), 59 (KCET), and so on. I've seen this limitation for decades with many UHF-only antennas. Have you tried a real antenna from Winegard or Channel Master?

It's not that Radio Shack products are bad because they are Radio Shack--just that their UHF yagis are designed with decent gain only on the lower 30 or so channels. This is a problem inherent in so-called "yagi" design. A true log-periodic or bowtie antenna is a better antenna for our regions. Most people report slightly better reception on some Radio Shack yagis actually off the sides somewhat, showing that they don't have a front main lobe.

The front lobe on any of the good antennas is wide enough that you should only have to aim roughly.

Does KCAL-DT still sign-on only evenings?

Filling the screen has nothing to do with the vertical resolution, 720p or 1080i. Filling the screen is done only with 4:3 aspect ratio, regardless of vertical resolution. A station can (gag) choose to violently chop off the top and bottom of the picture to force a 4:3 picture into 16:9 or 14:9 aspect ratio to please those fearing screen burn-in, but everyone else suffers from lack of picture or anamorpism.

I'm in south orange county, and my bedroom window faces south, so I'm pullling San Diego OTA DTV with a modded radio shack double bowtie.

I get CBS, ABC, and PBS fairly well. Dropout for a few minutes at a time a few times each day. NBC is struggling to come in as I get a horribly broken up picture most of the time. I think a preamp may help.

How common is a preamp with an indoor antenna? I don't have a lot of flexability at all with antenna positioning. Right now the antenna is on a tissue box, on the top of my TV with several articles of mail on half the box so that the antenna is angled upwards slightly. Hehe, its funny but it has to be like that to pull in these stations as consistantly as possible. I fear adding a preamp would force me to find another location for the antenna which isn't nearly as good.

Well impatience got the best of me, and I went out and bought a radio shack preamp for $60. And so far (/me knocks on wood repeatedly) it has locked in NBC which was almost never solid, but rather pixel hell.

I just hope it isn't an atmospheric coincidence. A little consistancy would be nice, but I guess that is truely getting ones hopes up in the OTA world =D

Well it's good to see there are others struggling with the same problems. While the terrrain provides challengesfor some, it could be a lot worse.

WJD and azazel...
Picking an antenna depends entirely on your location. Thre's no hard and fast answer to "the right antenna". From what I've learned in the archives here, it's largely trial and error. For S. Orange County viewers seeking DTV reception from L.A. stations, we don't have an especially strong signal due to distance, and local conditions can make matters worse. I'd suggest two things:

(1) The azimuth toward Mt Wilson for South OC is about 330 degrees or so, referenced to True North. This is NNW, check whether hills are evident in that direction. If you have hills or ridges higher than your antenna, your situation is not ideal.

(2) Use the Search Utility to look in the archives of this forum using arguments like "Orange County", "Irvine", "Mission Viejo", "Coto de Caza". "San Clemente:", "Laguna" etc and you can read about the experiments of other local DTV experimenters. There are quite a few.

Regarding attic mounts - Expect a lot of signal loss. I considered this until I realized I'd be aiming through stucco which has a metal lattice inside. Outdoors is best, as high as you can get it, but you gotta do what your situation permits. Certainly there are locations where indoor antennas will be fine. Also it might work fine until weather conditions degrade the signal further.

There are many viewers that get good signals from San Diego DTV stations. I recall reading about posters in Burbank that get great reception from SD, 105 miles distant, and lousy reception from Mt Wilson, because they so close that they don't have line of sight!

BlueWire...
Thanks for the specific information regarding limitations of the Yagi antenna design. I will try different off-axis orientations as a first experiment, then will probably move on to a "real antenna".

I see many people praising the Televes DAT75(?), another large YAGI antenna. Not sure I know what a log-peridic or bowtie looks like, but investigate!

I am encouraged that my DTV reception is not bad, (and even quite good) for many stations most of the time! Now that the initial flush of enthusiasm for moderate initial DTV success has passed, I find myself being less tolerant of dropouts. I want good reception all the time.

Gary

I'm in Newport Beach right next to Newport Pier and am having trouble getting reception. I can't get NBC and have poor luck with ABC. CBS is fine.

I'm using a Radio Shack VU-190XR (huge 10' antenna). I am thinking of trying one of their UHF only antennas? Would that help?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Nate,
For me NBC and ABC always work well, while CBS is usually missing. The CBS transmitter is west of the other stations' DTV transmitters, from the lat-lon coordinates given in the "100kwatts" link in my first message. The other DTV antennas are in a tight cluster with CBS a bit west of the others. You might try turning your antenna slightly toward the north to see if the other stations improve.

From your location, I'll bet you have good line-of-sight to Mt. Wilson providing there are no tall buildings near your house. Unless you're below the beach bluffs...

A pre-amp might be a good way to boost your signal strength. RS sells one for about $60 but some posters here have reported better results using a ChannelMaster UHF-only pre-amp.

I'm no expert on antennas. There have been numerous detailed antenna comparisons posted here, but the only thing that matters is how well an antenna works for your situation. It's trial and error.

The RS UHF antenna mentioned in the first message is only $22. If you bought one and were careful unpacking it and playing with it, you could probably return it if it didn't work. You wouldn't have to press in the plastic end caps (not removeable once inserted) to see how well it works. Same with the RS pre-amp. Once you start special ordering antennas, etc, returning them becomes a problem.

From my understanding, the single band UHF antennas perform better than combination VHF-UHF-FM antennas and are generally (but not always) smaller.

Gary

I've read in here of others having very good luck with a Zenith brand UHF Antenna designed for HD use supposedly. It's at Circuit City and is supposed to be rather cheap. (price wise!) And easy to return too if it does not work for you....

Live in MV myself...waiting on Cox...though not impressed with what I hear about the first generation boxes....

Jetninja,

I think you are referring to the Silver Sensor, manufactured by Antiference in England, but apparently being marketed now by Zenith. I can attest to its virtues as a UHF only DTV antenna. It is small, about 1 ft. long and is highly directional. I've used it to recieve the San Diego stations without a pre-amp, a distance of over 70 miles. I can get the LA CBS station at my home in MV, about 55 miles. As I wrote earlier in the thread, I use 2 now, one indoors and one outdoors with a pre-amp to get all the LA stations. It's nice in that its small enough that my HOA did not have a problem with me mounting it outdoors.

Picture Here:

http://www.antiference.co.uk/indoor.htm

Available at:

http://www.digitalconnection.com

for about $50.

I also tried a ChannelMaster 4248 8-bay bowtie, but it didn't work well in my location. But there are others in
this area that it works well for. Like others have said,
trial and error.

Bruce

Is there a place to buy either Winegard or Channel Master in Los Angeles or the San Fernando Valley?
Dennis

Fry's Electronics stores carry some Channel Master models and accessories.

Bruce --

Good to hear you finally got something to work! Since our last "local" meeting (we're overdue for the next one - let's try right after New Year's...) I've spent some time doing a bunch of tests on various indoor and outdoor antenna/preamp combinations. As soon as I get some time I'm going to post the results here, but I can share a couple of interesting things that came up during this effort. First, I finally found a RS preamp that works as well as the CM 7775. The model number is 15-1171. I also found that the now-discontinued RS 15-1862 amplified indoor antenna works better than either the Silver Sensor (with 7775...) or the DBT (also with a 7775...).

I did some experimenting with "stacking", both horizontal and vertical, with first two, and then four Silver Sensors. First I tried a horizontal stack arrangement (using some PVC parts; I have pics I'll also post...), with a spacing of about 40 inches. Without a preamp I was able to get only 3 (of the 10 LA stations broadcasting at the time...) with a continuous lock. With the 1171 preamp the single SS was able to add one more, for a total of 4. With the horizontal "stack", without the amp: 4 locks; with the amp: 7 locks.

I then tried to vertically stack two of the SS's with surprising results. At first, I couldn't see much of a difference until I found that if they are offset so that the "upper" SS is placed about 6 inches in front of the "lower" unit, which is separated vertically about 12 inches from the top antenna, it makes quite an improvement. In this configuration, without the amp: 7 locks; with the amp: 9 locks (!). Next, I tried a "quad" stack configuration with 4 SS and got 9 solid locks with no amp. With the amp: 10 out of 10 locks, with most "pegging" out the E86's signal readout (6-100s and 2-93s...).

I also did a horizontal stack (also 40 inches...) of two RS 2160 yagis, with and without an amp, and I got the highest numbers I've seen from my location for any antenna without an amp: 10 locks 6-100s, 1-93; and with the amp: 10 locks, 8-100s, 1-86, 1-79. I also tested my 4228 and a 4221, mainly as a "control" and I got numbers similar to what I have in the past (4228/7775: 10 locks, 5-100s; 4221/7775: 10 locks, 4-100s...).

I found another interesting thing, by accident. One of the RS models I tested was their "current" 15-1890 model (the one that "tauts" HD compatibility and looks like two paper towel holders on a curved arm...). This antenna normally is a pretty poor performer (1 lock...) but I inadvertantly knocked it over, so that it was "resting" on the front "tube" and all of a sudden the numbers went up (5 locks, 2-100s...). Wierd, huh?

Finally, I found the amplified 1862 to be the best performing indoor antenna of all that I looked at (9 locks, 5-100s...). Why is it that RS chooses to discontinue its best performers? For the DBT, I can understand because it basically looks like a cheap Hibach grate, but the 1862 looks good!


All these numbers were taken outdoors (on my upstairs deck...). When I moved indoors to our loft area, where the antennas point out a 3 foot by 9 foot skylight/window in our living room, performance went way down. I tried the 4221 (w/amp: 7 locks, 2-100s), the "quad" SSs (1-2 locks; too directional for this indoor location...) and the 1862 (7 locks, 0-100s...). Curious, I then decided to see if there was a way to "stack" a couple of 1862s. I tried several different combinations but found the best results when I set them up side-by-side (9 locks, 4-100s...). I now have these connected into a new Zenith HDV-420 OTA receiver, which has a better tuner (just like your Broadcom friend said...) and a Sony 17-inch LCD panel and it works great. I've had no dropouts in two weeks on any channel.

Anyway, I hope to be able to post the complete results and the photos sometime this week.

-- Gary

Gary..

I am just getting ready to add my HD attennna and I will welcome any info that you can provide. I am in the Northen Yorba Linda area and currently I have the Silver Sensor just sitting outside. I get about 5 stations, but they signals fluctuate. Any info that you can provide will greatly be appreciated.

You are closer to Mt. Wilson, which is good. Do you have any hills, big trees, buildings, etc., between you and and Mt. Wilson? If so, your biggest problem is likely to be multipath. In that case, a 4-bay "bow-tie" type, like the CM 4221 or WG 4400, might work best. You can get these online at www.warrenelectronics.com or www.starkelectronic.com. If you do go this route, I'd also recommend the CM 7775 mast-mounted preamp.

Seeing how you can get at least five channels with the SS, I'm guessing multipath is not a big issue. I guess the first thing I'd try is the Radio Shack UHF-only yagi (model 15-2160...), as it is inexpensive and readily available. If you can't get at least 10 stations locked on with no dropouts. I'd go back to Radio Shack and pickup a model 15-1171 preamp. Don't bother with any of the other RS models.

Good luck!

-- Gary

Actually I am able to get 2,4,7,11,13,9, PBS(Both Channels). LIke I said I do have some drop out but not a lot. I am in an association and would like to mount the attenna on the outside to maximize my reception. I am on a hill, but I am towards the top of it. Not in the valley. THere are some trees around towards mt wilson. I have a neighbor that has an attenna and says he is getting excellent reception. I am not sure if I can rely on his evaluation since he is not to technical. So I am looking for something on the small side.. Would this change your recommendation.

Both the 4221 and the RS 2160 are relatively small, comparatively speaking. The 4221 is basically flat, about 24" x 48". The 2160 is about 3' long, pretty short for "yagi"-style.

I think you will do fine with either so I'd give the RS model a shot, if only that it is available locally. Actually, you might also just want to try adding the RS 1171 amp to your existing SS. It might be enough to eliminate the dropouts.

-- Gary

I have read that the channelmaster and the silver sensor provide the best results. Are you saying that I can get the same results the above antennas?

First of all, the 4221 is a Channel Master antenna. It is basically "half" of the 8-bay CM4228. I've found very few cases where this antenna won't be one of the best performing.for digital reception. The Silver Sensor is one of the best indoor antennas available. It works so well that for some situations, it's all you need. In almost all cases, however, the RS 2160 "yagi" will work better.

As I said above, you might just try adding the RS 15-1171 amplifier to your SS. It might be all you need to allow your receiver to lock onto all the channels,

-- Gary

Generally, "billboard" antennas such as the 4221 and 4228 have not been too good at rejecting multipath coming in at small angles to the main wave.

If all the multipath is more than 50 to 60 degrees off axis, then these "Billboard" antennas are beneficial because they lack significant sidelobes outside the main lobe, unlike directional Yagi's

Only experiment at your location can decide the best antenna.

I found, after experimenting with Channel Master, RS, Winegard, Blake, and Televes, (including one of the billboard antennas)that for my particular location with huge multipath and no line of sight (blocking ridge) from xmitters 33 miles away that the only operating configuration was two Blake Yagis (JBX21WB's) stacked horizontally.

Gary (Goodrum), are you saying the RS 2160 works well? Gary Stigall says Radio Shack antennas don't pick up the higher channels (50s and up) very well. Has this not been your experience?

The 2160 is 18 x 32", according to Radio Shack's specifications. Not too shabby if it can pull in all my stations (even if it's with a preamp).

David

While I agree that the 2160 may not perform as well as the bigger and more expensive models from CM, WG, etc., it works quite well enough for most situations. With digital signals it's all about getting enough of a signal that the receiver can lock onto and hold. If that can happen, the picture will be perfect, period. In the analog world, the differences between this antenna and the more expensive models will be "visible" (less snow, no ghosting, etc.).

I live 60 miles south of Mt Wilson in a valley and I can get "pegged" signals on all but a couple of the 12 channels broadcasting in digital using the 2160 and either the 1171 or the CM 7775 preamp. I recently did a test where I horizontally stacked two 2160's (using about $10 of PCV...) about 40" apart and I got pegged numbers across the board without a preamp (see photos below).

http://www.ceoanalytix.com/AVSForum/Antennas/Picture 006a.jpg

http://www.ceoanalytix.com/AVSForum/Antennas/Picture 008a.jpg

Another member has an "extra" DAT-75 that I'm going to take off his hands so I can do some comparison tests sometime soon.

Finally, just for grins :) , I played around with first two, and then a total of four Silver Sensor antennas in various configurations. What ended up working best was a "modified" quad-stack (see below...). Although this looks like something out of a bad sci-fi flick, I can get strong signals on virtually all channels, even without an amp. With the amp: pegged across the board.

http://www.ceoanalytix.com/AVSForum/Antennas/Picture 009a.jpg

-- Gary

Gary, I have been lurking here for a while trying to get ideas as to what to do to get DTV reception. I live in Rancho Sta. Margarita and so far have had partial success with a RS Double Bow Tie. I am wanting to improve on it so I am going to try the Silver Sensor this weekend. I understand that Circuity City sells them. I just saw your pictures and if a single antenna wont help me, then I might just borrow some of your ideas and see if more than one will do the trick.

BTW, if you guys are meeting in S. Orange County to discuss antenna/reception issues I would be interested in attending.

Mario

Gary,

I think your setup is wonderful! Your experience confirms the advantages of stacking.

Yoy are right; if you lock up the picture is perfect, but you do need a little margin to avoid dropouts due to dynamic multipath (airplanes, sudden microclimate changes, traffic etc.). On the DTC100, the receiver locks at a reading of about 40, but there is no margin. At around 55, there are very infrequent dropouts.

Mario --

Welcome to the AVS Forum (s)! We'll add you to the list! I think our next meet will be some time in January (either before or after CES...) and it'll probably be at my house. I'm in Coto, not far from you.

I have the tried the DBT in comparison with the SS, and several others. Without an amp, the performance out of a single SS is about the same as the DBT. A good, low noise amp, like the CM 7775 or the RS 1171 will significantly increase the performance of both the DBT and the SS. In my location a single SS with either amp will perform about the same as the "quad" SS setup shown above without an amp.

Circuit City has the SS but when I tried to buy one, they wouldn't sell it to me. They said they give one to each person who buys a Zenith TV but they can't sell them individually. The SS is also available at Sears, across the street in the Laguna Hills Mall, and they are quite happy to actually sell them.

Before you rush off to get one, however, you might want to consicer the fact that they cost about the same as the RS 1171 amp, which I think you will need anyway, and it will not be significantly better than your existing DBT. It does look way cooler than the cheap Hibachi grill look that the DBT has going but in our area, it just isn't going to work a lot better.

I have one other option for you if you are sticking to "indoor" models. It is an amplified unit that RS doesn't make anymore but it works better than either the SS or the DBT with an amp. The model number is 15-1862 and I think it costs around $50. They are a little easier to find than the DBT but you'll have to look. Best way is to call Dave at the RSM RS and ask him to look in the computer for which store has them. Last time I checked, there was one in Tustin and another in Irvine, I think. Anyway, I'm using two of these in a side-by-side "mini-stack" in my loft looking out a 3x9-foot skylight in our living room. They are connected to a Zenith HDV-420 and I get dropout free reception on every LA channel. Not bad for 60 miles away, I think.

Anyway, you have lots of options that should allow very good reception from your location. Happy viewing!

-- Gary

cymro --

You are right about the extra margin. For most of my testing I used a Hughes E-86. It would "lock" with readings of 37 but wouldn't be relatively dropout-free until the number got to 51 (the E-86 has "steps" of about 7 units...). What I've found is that I can get the number up to at least 65, it will be completely stable.

The newer tuners work better, I've found. The E86 works about the same as the DTC-100 and the MyHD tuner card I have in a PC. The Sony HD200 that I'm using now on my "main" system will lock onto signals that the E86 or MyHD won't and for marginal reception, where the E86 and the MyHD would experience some dropouts, the HD200 remain locked. It was because of this performance "boost" that I decided to get the HDV-420, which is basically just the OTA-only portion of the HD200/Zenith SAT-520, all of which are made by LG in Korea. I have the HDV420 and the MyHD connected to the same double-1862 setup and I have confirmed that occasionally I seen a dropout while watching the MyHD picture and when I immediately switch to the HDV420, no dropout.

Re: the stacking: I learned about this from reading Glenn_L's many posts and reading about his trials and tribulations (www.atechfabrication.com). I also gleaned a lot from Pete Putman's excellent series of tests (www.projectorexpert.com). In fact, it was Pete's test of indoor models where I first heard about the RS 1862, which did well in his tests. Anyway, I agree, stacking works!

-- Gary

Glenn L is a real treasure and all around good guy. I loaned him my spectrum analyzer, JBX21WB's, DY28A, and Televes DAT75 for his series of tests. He also came to my house where we performed tests on stacked JBX21WB's.

Without his fabrication skills I would not have succeeded in picking up the LA DTV stations.

I wondered about that, as Glenn had one series of tests in Pacific Palisades.

Since I don't have Glenn's envious skills, I had to go the "Tinker Toy" route with the PVC parts.

-- Gary

Hey Gary, thanks for the suggestions. I do think I need the amp so I will buy that first and see how it goes with the DBT. I will keep in mind that RS antenna you mentioned. Do you know of anybody locally who sells the CM amp?

Since I have the antenna in my attic, I was actually thinking of buying one of the 8 bay Channelmaster/Winegard antennas. However, since I don't know how well it will work (whether it will be better than the DBT) I wanted to get it from a local place and not from the internet. Do you know anybody local that sells them? I have tried Fry's before but they did not have the right one. I have also contacted a couple of distributors that I got from the CM/Winegard website but they don't sell to people, only installers.

Anyhow, thanks for your ideas.

Mario

Mario --

The problem with trying to put the 4228 in an attic is that it won't fit through the access hole. It is about 4 feet square.

Actually, the 4-bay version, the 4221, works just as good for me. I'm helping my neighbor get setup and I ordered him a 4221. When I got it I did some comparison tests and it had virtually the same numbers as the 4228, both with a 7775 preamp. Just to verify that the 1171 would perform equally as well, I tried it with both the 4221 and the 4228 and the numbers were exactly the same.

The problem with CM and WG is you can't find any of their stuff locally, which really frustrates me. I'm normally the poster-child for impulse buyers so ordering anything online or over the phone is extremely hard for me. The reason I found the 1171 is because I have literally tried every single amplifier I could get my hands on, trying to find one locally that works as well as the 7775. You can imagine my glee when I found out how well the 1171 performs!

I haven't found a place in our local area where the RS 2160 with an amp didn't work just as well as the 4221 or the 4228. One of our local members has a 2160 in his attic and he gets "pegged" numbers across the board. If you don't want to go the Internet route, I'd give this antenna, along with the 1171 a shot.

-- Gary

Well I ended up going with a CM 4308. Had it installed on the 23rd. I am not using a preamp and I am getting about 80% strength on most channels. Some higher and some a bit lower. I have not installed a preamp as of yet. Strange thing though I am still seeing some digital uglies which I assume are caused by drop out. I would not expect to see this at 80% strength. Debating now if I should add a preamp.

Antenna is outdoors and I went with it because the neighbor was having success with his.

I went out to RS and bought the 1171 amp and the 2160 antenna. I installed the antenna in the attic today and no luck. The numbers are better with the Double Bow Tie. I couldn't get any locks with the 2160 (25-35 range). With the DBT I could get between 35-60.

I don't know if I should try the CM 4 or 8 bay antennas. Maybe I should just abandon the idea of putting it in the attic and go for the external option. Does anybody know how much an installer charge for putting up an external antenna? Any installer recommendations for S. Orange County?

Any ideas/suggestions are welcomed...

Mario C.

Attic installations are tricky. Sometimes just moving a foot in either direction can make a huge difference. The problem is that there may be metal in the roofing material.

Just to get a benchmark, try taking the antenna outside and see what kind of numbers you get.

Where are you in south OC?

-- Gary

I live in Rancho Santa Margarita, not direct line of sight 50 miles south of mount wilson, slightly below and south of a ridge line, mounted a CM4248 hi gain yagi to the side of the chimney on my roof coupled to a CM7775 uhf-only preamp, aimed at a low point in the ridge to the north, which comprise the high point in mission viejo across the oneil regional park barranca. The antenna is not too azimuth sensitive, and not at all sensitive to slight up or down aim vs level. So far as I can determine, I receive all the LA stations (13 digital plus all the spanish, korean, and japanese analogs) with good to excellent signal strength on a samsung t165 STB. No dropouts ever, and excellent hi-band reception (CBS, etc). koce-dt is broadcasting in low power for now, and I receive it with some noise in the picture. other than KOCE-DT,chan 38 and 39 (low power religious stations which I receive, but with noise) all the pictures are rock solid. You can get the CM4248 shipped to you in a few days from consumerdirect.com, less than $50 bucks, but it's got an 8 foot boom, reflector end is about 3 foot in vertical dimension. Keep in mind all the STB's have their idiosyncrasies too. Some may be more sensitive than others, even within a specific manufacturer and model. Maybe I was lucky. rgds, John Shulze

Local terrain makes all the difference here in south O.C. since we're 50+ miles from the transmitters. If you don't have line-of-sight, antenna elevation makes a big difference.

A comment for Mario and his "no luck" attic installation: I considered an attic install myself, but changed my mind because the antenna would have aimed through a stucco attic wall. Stucco has steel mesh within its initial layer, which really cuts UHF signal levels. In our neighborhood, some attic antennas would aim through a tile roof, not quite as bad, but still far worse than a roof-mounted antenna.

I mounted a Winegard DS-3000 J-pipe mount to the fascia below my tile roof. I used machine bolts and nuts to through-bolt it to the 1" thick fascia. The pipe was cut to the needed length. This is basically the same mount that is supplied with Dish Network SATV dishes...

http://www.winegard.com/products/accessories/acc_mounts_combo-mounts.html
Stark Electronics carries them for a good price.

I still haven't had an opportunity to mount my Televes DAT-75. Since it's significantly larger than the RS yagi it's replacing, I decided to relocate the antenna mount to the back side of the house where it will be less visible. This presents a new set of challenges since access is more difficult.

ALso interesting to read that KOCE-DT is now operating from Mt. Wilson at low power levels. I can't wait to see if I can get their signal...

Gary

Gary, I live in Rancho Sta. Margarita, my cross-streets would be Las Flores and Buena Suerte. I am not sure but I think I live close to John Shulze since his description of the terrain sounds awfully familiar. I am actually going to go over the manual to make sure I assembled the antenna correctly. I am planning in bringing the antenna down today and see what kind of signal I can get outside.

For those of you who live around here, how did you deal with the associations bylaws for putting up an external antenna. I contacted the assoc. offices and they told me they want a display/map of where the antenna is going to be, I need the signature of two neighbors, and that is just the application! They would then need to approve it. This is the main reason I wanted to put the antenna in the attic.

John, if you don't mind, who did the installation of the antenna for you? I think I read in a previous post you had a professional do it. I might have to go the same way as you.

GaryJC, I do have a tile roof. Since I had decent numbers with the RS Double Bow Tie I thought that a Yagi might be a bit better. I will try to play with it some more today.

Thanks for the support,

Mario:D

Mario --

Before giving up on the attic installation, try moving it around a bit. Member Paul E has the same antenna in his attic in Mission Viejo and gets "pegged" numbers and his has to "point" at a large hill within about 50 feet of his place. He had said that moving it even a foot or two makes a huge difference.

Re: associations - It depends. If you have an unattached house you can tell your HOA to kiss-off. If you are in a "court" home, with a shared wall with a neighbor, the whole roof is considered common so you need their permission.

-- Gary

Mario,

When it comes to Association rules, Gary is referring to the FCC rule that supercedes all local antenna restrictions (for single family residences). If you Search the HDTV Local Reception Forum for "FCC" you'll find links to threads that talk about it, and links to the FCC page that discusses it.

Basically them FCC exempts all antennas and all dishes less than 3 foot diameter. stating that they cannot be disallowed or their mounting location legislated if such location adversely affects your reception, or increases your installation cost or serviceability. Period. Most association rules are just a lot of empty sabre rattling.

Gary

I also live in Ranch Santa Margarita, in the very norhtern part of the city not too far from Melinda and Rancho Santa Margarita Parkway. I didn't ask for permission from the HOA, I just had an installer put the antenna up on my roof. Nobody at the HOA has complained, I do think they know they can't do anything about outdoor antennas.

I have a Weingard 9095 (UHF only, I think 39 elements) and it generally does a good job. It is mounted to a vent pipe and is at the height of the peak of my roof.

If anybody wants the name of the antenna installer, please private mail me and I will give you his name and number. He has done a lot of antenna installations and does know what he is doing.

Tom

To mcastlejr:
Installed the antenna myself. Sorry, dont know any installers, but will be happy to describe to you how to go about it if you want to stop by the house, or private e-mail me. Rgds, John shulze

I'm very new to Dt/HD and have a Mits ws65896 . I installed a RS2160 and a RS1170 to the dt plug and roof mounted the ant. I get nothing!! How the heck are people within 4 miles of me able to receive the sigs and not me? I moved the ant S/W/E/N with no real difference. I live a stone's throw from cook's corner and about 500 ft higher in elevation. I use the mits memorize feature on DT and I get no hits at all. When I switich to Ant B (analog) I get about 10 stations all with a lot of snow. Any advice. I'm going nuts trying to figure out what to do now.

Robert

Rob,

Seems unusual that you get zero results.

The RS 2160 antenna is very sensitive to direction. It should be pointed to a compass bearing of 330 degrees or so, for our area. For me, even small adjustments had a big effect on reception, both signal level and number of stations. If you have ridges in the way, you might have to try other antenna locations or directions. I jammed a wooden dowel in the rear-facing tube of that antenna and clamped the dowel to the top of a 6 foot ladder. I was able to use the ladder as a tripod while I tried other locations and directions. Also moving the legs inward from the locked position gave me a way to vary the elevation angle.

If you look at post #4 in the thread, the poster said this antenna might give better results pointed substantially off-axis, due to a lobe in its sensitivity pattern.

If your line-of-sight is blocked by a ridge, you might have to try other locations to find one that's not in a "null". I remember that a poster in Irvine reported that he walked around his yard with the antenna while his wife watched the TV in the house, reporting the results. After a frustrating half hour, he tossed the antenna to the ground, against the wood fence, in disgust. Suddenly his wife yelled out, "Hey honey, don't change a thing! Perfect reception on all channels!" So, don't give up yet...

Gary Goodrum says the RS1170 pre-amp performs poorly, while the cheaper 1171 performs well. You might want to looks at his other posts to see the comparison testing he's done. Also Gary mentioned that the local people experimenting with DTV reception might get together to compare results. You might want to PM (private message) him so he can let you know if this happens.

Unfortunately this is all trial and error, unless you have a neighbor who has already done the experiments. Look for the roof-mounted antenna that was probably mounted in the dark or when no one was around :-)

If you continue to get zero results, I'd start wondering about the receiver. While unlikely, it's not impossible.

Good luck,
Gary

PS I am often frustrated when posting at this forum. Although I'm logged in, when I go to post the message, it says "You are not logged in." From experience, I've learned to go back one page and copy the message text I've composed, because the new log-in never goes back to the Reply page. Well, it happened again, and I had to retype this reply because my Copy didn't work for some reason! It ALWAYS happens with this forum, but not with other forums using the same message board software. I'm beginning to think that AVS has an extremely short no-activity time-out, at which point they log you out automatically. Unfortunately it takes time to type messages and replies. I wonder if I'm the only one with this problem...

Gary --

He did PM me and I'm trying to help him out. If we can't the RS 2160 to work, we may have found a home for that "extra" DAT-75!

Haven't had the same timeout problem lately, but I have seen it before. Maybe I'm just typing faster these days. :)

Still hoping to host a get-together soon. I'll let everybody know. For those that have expressed interest, please PM me with your email address so I can send out one message with all the details, etc.

-- Gary

Well I think robhair has sorted out most of his problems now. It turns out he had a couple of "issues". First of all, Saddleback is in a direct LOS to Mt. Wilson from his location so that limits his options. As it turns out, he's on a pretty good sized hill so the SD stations are do-able.

I gave him the DAT-75 to try out and he called back to report he was getting reception now on most of the SD stations and he hasn't actually mounted it yet. It is laying on top of a patio cover.

-- Gary

Gary and the guys,

I'm in HD heaven now. I watched the CBS football telecast today and can't be happier! Gary's right I can't get anything through Mt. Wilson, My neighbor used a GPS and Mt. Wil is blocked by the peak on saddleback. I am getting stations from San Diego ABC (superbowl YA!) CBS comes in fine. I get Fox with some dropouts. I had NBC but have since lost it. ABC 1000kw CBS 1000kw are at Mt. Solidad. Fox is Mexico. NBC and WB are at Mt. San Miguel and I still have the DAT 75 on the patio cover with no preamp. Monday I'll try the preamp and roof mount. I would like to give a big thanks to all of you that responded.
GGoodrum "Your Da Man", You made my day. I can't wait until the "experts at RS, Goodguys, Reeltime hear that we did the impossible.

Thanks again,
Robert

Try for KPBS-HD on channel 30 from Mt. Miguel - its the most powerful digital HD station in San Diego. KGTV-DT(ABC) is 300KW and KFMB-DT(CBS) is 700KW.

Rob,
That's great news. I'm glad to hear the DAT-75 made a difference in overcoming your challenging terrain. Halfway decent results without a pre-amp! That must be a 75 mile distance. I wonder if you can hit all the SD stations without a rotator?

Again it's almost random luck that you can receive even the SD stations. Few people considered terrestrial TV reception when they bought their houses. The people in your neighborhood that are further down toward El Toro Road are probably blocked for both L.A. and S.D. DTV reception!

I have the twin brother to your DAT-75 - They are often ordered two at a time from the U.K. since the shipping costs are the same for 1 or 2. If you don't need a rotator, you might consider the Winegard DS-3000 J-pipe mount I mentioned earlier in this thread. It's about $20 from Stark Electronics.

I just finished modifying my mount so I can freely rotate the DAT-75, then clamp it down at the optimum azimuth setting. I have two roof mounting options, neither is ideal. I can mount my DAT-75 on the front side of the house (easy access for mounting and maintenance, but an eyesore) or on the back side of the house, aimed toward the street (reached only by a long extension ladder, but almost invisible from out front). The RS 2160 is presently out front, but the DAT-75 is gigantic by comparison and those orange plastic spreaders shout, "Hey, look at me!" to the world. I'll probably deal with mounting in the back of the house this week, which would be more satisfying in the long run.

Gary

Gary,

Yes mounting and aesthetics are now my main concern. I am getting kpbs (two stations 15.1-15.2). fox goes in and out. Abc great Cbs great.Wb goes in and out also. I have the DAT-75 Temp Taped to a air pipe on the roof. I do have a fireplace type mount from rs that I might use. The guys in the neighborhood think the ant. looks OK. The women just shake their heads and give me the "man thing" look. I'll let you know what happens next.

Robert

Rob,
Hopefully the pre-amp will give you consistently good signal levels.

Regarding mounts: In this area, a solid mount is nice to have whenever those Santa Ana winds threaten to relocate your $100 antenna to a different area code. A chimney mount should do the trick!

I am ever amazed at all the posts regarding satellite dishes out of whack after the winds kick up. There's something to be said for being able to readjust it yourself without waiting/paying for someone else to do it.

Good luck...
Gary

I used to live in Porter Ranch and it blew there pretty constant from about October to March! I never had a problem with leaves, however. They ended up in Encino.

When I moved down here, I thought I was done with the 70 mph SAs but this last episode hit here with a vengence. I had a 4228 mounted on a 15-foot mast, attached to an upstairs deck. the wind snapped the mast in half and slammed the antenna, and 7775 preamp, to ground. Both are goners.

What I've replaced it with is a a pair of RS 2160s in a horizontal stack (38" apart...), mounted in the wind-protected corner of the deck using some heavy-duty 1-1/4 PVC pipe. I have this combo feeding my Sony HD200 via a RS 1171 amp and Im now getting the highest "numbers" I've ever seen at my location (all 12 channels well into the "Good" section...). The nice thing about this setup is that it is cheap and everything is readily available at pretty much any Radio Shack. Both antennas and all the PVC "tinker toys" cost less than the amp, which is about $50. Anyway, I'm very and haven't had a dropout yet. I'll post some pictures tomorrow.

-- Gary

Two Gary's,

OK-now-- no LOL with this story. I've been perplexed for the last few days about how bad my sense of direction have been about E/W/S/N. I always thought I had a clue as to what general direction I was headed. When this whole issue about ant. adjustment came up, I kept hearing about Saddleback being in the way of Mt. Wilson. I always thought of Saddleback as northeast of me. I went to all the local experts RS, Goodguys, Reeltime, etc. and they all pretty much said the same thing. Today while driving to work and visually observing the mountain ranges I came to the conclusion that I had totally lost my mind and have no sense of direction at all. In order to confirm that fact I went back to my neighbors and asked him if I could look at his flight map that he used in helping me out. When he started pointing out where we were in relation to Saddleback It became obvious that I had at the very least a shot at Wilson.
Well fellas, he thought I had said Mt Palamar since I had been discussing San Diego DT stations with him. Well to make a long story short I climbed back up to the roof and swung that DT-75 aboout 180 d. around and tried again. I LOL when KCBS-KNBC-KTLA and about 5 spanish DT's turned on. LA Stations all over the place. To beat that I still got CBS San Diego from the wrong end of that DAT-75. I played with it about an hour and the signal at this time still seems stronger from San Diego. I want ABC for the game and could'nt find it in L.A. Can you beat that, I start out thinking I might not get any OTA DT and wind up with stations to the west of me and stations to the south. Please control your laughter.

Robert

Gentlemen,

I'm so pleased I found this thread - it's provided me with a lot to think about. I took delivery of my MyHD last weekend, along with a Silver Sensor from DC (FYI it's less than 30 bucks, not 50 as mentioned earlier in this thread).

My problem is that I live in Aliso Viejo, near the top of the hill. However I'm on the wrong side of the hill for Mt. Wilson and with the SS indoors I can't see a single LA station. I managed to get the San Diego ABC and CBS stations reasonably well with the SS indoors.

As I have a hill directly in front of me does anyone have an opinion about whether-or-not I have a hope of getting the LA stations if I buy a better antenna? I don't want to spend a bunch of money on an antenna and getting it installed (not to mention my neighbors - there isn't a single other OTA antenna in my neigborhood) if it's not going to work.

My current thought is that I should consider an RS 15-2160 on a chimney-mount, and feed that into an RS 15-1170. I'm worried about multipath issues with the pre-amp though, because of the hill.

I'd appreciate thoughts/advice. Also - can someone tell me more about this local user-group I see mentioned here?

Andy.

Andy,
Welcome to the thread!

Probably most of us are the HDTV pioneers in our neighborhoods. There's a saying, "The pioneers get all the arrows."

While association CC&Rs cannot prohibit roof antennas, most people are unaware of it, so the possibility of complaints is real. Quoting from the FCC web page, "The rule prohibits most restrictions that: (1) unreasonably delay or prevent installation, maintenance or use; (2) unreasonably increase the cost of installation, maintenance or use; or (3) preclude reception of an acceptable quality signal."
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Tthe wording is subject to interpretation, but it's clear that roof antennas cannot be prohibited altogether. While satellite dish size can be limited to 3' maximum diameter, there are no similar size restrictions on VHF/UHF antennas.

Gary Goodrum has performed extensive testing. The RS 15-1171 pre-amp gives better results than the 1170 and costs less. Gary reports that it's comparable to the Channel Master UHF-only pre-amp.

The RS 15-2160 antenna is not large. It certainly is an inexpensive first test. Better yet - First try the Silver Sensor outside as a predictor of results. Get a long RG-6 coax from RS and even try the SS on the roof, if you can jury-rig a temporary mount.

You can expect a significant improvement once your antenna is outside, and then antenna elevation becomes the important factor. You have many antenna choices unfortunately (as the entire thread indicates. No telling what will work for you unless your neighbors have already done the experiments.

You bought your Siver Sensor antenna at "DC". What is DC?

Good luck,
Gary

Gary,

Thanks for the info. DC = Digital Connection.

I do understand that I am allowed to erect an antenna. I just don't want to upset my neighbors (even though I'm "legally" right). Hopefully there won't be any such problem but I'd like to investigate alternatives as long as I don't lose too much reception-wise.

Can you enlighten me on this local user-group?

Andy.

I understand your sensitivity to neighborhood concerns. I delayed deployment of my larger DAT-75 antenna while I pondered mounting alternatives. I have a convenient location on the front of the roof (where my RS 15-2160 was mounted), and a new location towards the back of the roof that is accessible at risk to life and limb (tall extension ladder, with base of ladder on top of my patio cover!). I finally concluded that both mounting options are clearly visible, just to different neighbors. I don't have a hidden location anywhere, unless I'm willing to seriously compromise signal reception. Like you, I'm behind a ridge. So, the DAT-75 goes up tomorrow in the original RS 15-2160 location!

I don't know much about the local user's group. I suspect people's interest is high until their own equipment is working. Once they get good reception, DTV antenna issues are no longer on their personal radar screens! Gary Goodrum seems to be an exception. He continues to test different setups even after his own equipment is working well. Gary said there might be a local gathering sometime soon. I suggest you PM (private mail) him to get on the list if a meeting is planned.

Meanwhile, feel free to post interim results here and ask questions as you run your own tests. If you want to borrow my RS 15-2160 for testing, it's available. Just PM me.

Gary

Andy,

Try taking your SS outside and see if you can pick up anthing outside. I had an SS and could not get a any signal inside. I took it outside and was able to get somewhat decent signal. I am in North OC so you might not have any luck, but thought I would throw my two cents in.

I ended with a channel master (cant remember the model) UHF only and I am very happy with mine. Works great and it is Chimney mounted and low so it should not bother too many people.

Cheers

Hi Andy --

The "local user-group" is basically this thread, plus a couple of others. A few of us "early members" met once and our next meeting is long overdue! I had hoped to host it last month but I haven't been able to due to various conflicts. I have two kids in high school and my wife frowns on doing anything on a "school night" and we've been busy every weekend. If somebody else wants to step up and host the next get together, I promise to do a future one, when school isn't an issue.

Now for your antenna problem, one thing I'd try first is what Gary suggests, and take the SS outside but point it up the hill, towards Mt. Wilson. Do a scan with the MyHD software but check the reception on the analog UHF stations. Chances are, if you get anything, it will be very snowy with heavy ghosting (i.e. -- multiple images...). The ghosting is multipath and multipath is the biggest problem digital tuners have to contend with in trying to lock onto the real signal. Anyway, if you do get some sort of analog reception on the analog UHF LA stations, no matter how bad, there is probably a solution we can come up with that will work.

I'm guessing that the multipath is bad enough that you'll need two antennas in a horizontally stacked configuration (see member Glenn_L's excellent website at www.atechfabrication.com for more info about stacking...). You might try a couple of 2160s, like I did, which won't set you back much. GaryJC is right, don't bother with the 1170 amp. The 1171 is the only one in the RS catalog that actually has a low enough noise factor to work well. If the 2160s won't work you can try a couple of larger yagis. Worst case you might have to use a couple of monster DAT-75s (!).

-- Gary

Gentlemen,

Thank you for the input. I got the urge to buy something today, so I ended up with a ChannelMaster 3017 (VHF/UHF) - it's way too big for outside use but I'm going to try it in the attic. I only ended up with this because I couldn't find a UHF-only antenna - RS were sold-out of the 2160s :(

I bought two line amps - a Leviton 25db Amp (48210-VA) and the recommended RS 15-1171. I tried them both tonight with the SS and the results seemed less than stellar (the SS was still inside). Signals were hardly increased from San Diego over no amp, but the Leviton unit seemed to have a higher gain (as per specs). I still was unable to get any LA channels (even analog) from indoors.

Questions -
1. Does anyone know about this CM 3017 antenna? Is it better than the RS 2160? I suspect I should try and get hold of a couple of 2160 as mentioned above and stack them. . .
2. Anyone have any opinions on the Leviton amp, and why I got such a lacklustre response from the RS amp?

Andy.

You are going to have to get the antenna outside. Even the attic is not going to be optimum because of metal used in the roofing. The UHF portion of the 3017 is similar to the 3022 UHF-only, which is similar in size, a least, to the RS 2160.

The amps will increase the signal-to-noise ratio but the problem is that indoors at your location the combination of severe multipath and weak receptionis keeping the receiver from being able to lock onto the actual signal.

Take the 3017 outside and hold it, or get somebody to hold it, so that you can move it around to see if it makes a difference. Use the 1171 only, for now, to get a baseline. Try pointing it towards Mt Wilson and change the vertical/elevation angle and also try different horizontal/azimuth angles as well. Repeat this process from different locations in the yard and then have sombody read off how many "bars" you get on the MyHD signal strength readout. I used my cell phone so I could talk to my wife without yelling back and forth.

Re: 2160 availability, you can have your local RS check their computer to see what other stores in your area might have them in stock. They cost about $22.

As I said, I am using two 2160s stacked horizontaly (using PVC...) into a 1171 amplifier and I have dropout-free reception of all 12 LA stations. Here"s a couple of pics:

http://www.ceoanalytix.com/AVSForum/Antennas/Dual%202160s-1.jpg

http://www.ceoanalytix.com/AVSForum/Antennas/Dual%202160s-3.jpg

-- Gary

Andy,
As Gary points out, the attic mount causes severe signal loss. In my case, the antenna in the attic was not pointing through roof tiles, it was pointed through an exterior stucco wall. Stucco has a layer of wire mesh that's stapled to the framing for the stucco to adhere. Translation, you'll have severe signal loss whether your attic antenna points through wall or roofing. Even if you get it to work occasionally, you will never be happy with the results. At 55+ miles from Mt. Wilson, you would be at "the fringe" for receiving UHF even on flat terrain!

You can also order Radio Shack stuff online if you don't want to drive all over the place, but it probably complicates the merchandise return process.

The pre-amp characteristics include gain and noise figure. You can have a high gain amp with high Noise Figure (lower NF is better) meaning that the amp is degrading the signal/noise ratio. You get a signal boost with a disproportionate increase in noise.

Gary, I mounted my DAT-75 at last. I got an across the board boost in numbers, perhaps 5 units on the Dish 6000 receiver scale. A clipped photo, the only one I took...

http://www.momentoffame.com/snapshots/MomentOfFame/l29750.jpg

All channels give a satisfactory picture except KCBS, which still presents mostly 0, spiking sporadically to 35, 40, maybe even an occasional 55. A signal spike every few seconds. Once in a long while, it will actually lock and I'll get a frame or 2. This is the only station with this symptom. I'm beginning to suspect multipath cancellation. From the lat-lons of the transmitters, I know that KCBS is a bit further north than the others, at least as seen from my location. Maybe there's an interfering ridge or ?? that only affects their signal along my line of sight.

Fortunately KCBS-HD is on my Dish satellite service, the only network station that Dish presently offers. But I'm paying an extra $1.50 per month for just KCBS-DT, in addition to $5.99 for analog locals, already including analog KCBS.

Gary

Gary(s),

I re-thought my idea and ended up returning the ChannelMaster. I'm going to take your suggestion and get hold of a couple of RS-2160s and horizontally co-phase them - mounted externally. Is there anything special I should know about co-phasing, apart from using a non-conductive boom, and keeping the feed cables the same length? What do I use to combine the feeds? I'm going to attempt this without a preamp at first to keep multipath issues to a minimum but as you suggest I'll hold onto the RS preamp - I suspect I will need it.

Anyone care to PM me the details of a reasonably priced local installer?

Andy.

Gary --

Bummer about KCBS. It's odd because it is absolutely the strongest station that I get. I assume you put the DAT-75 in the same location that the 2160 was at, is that right? I wonder if moving laterally one way or the other would make a difference. Strange.


Andy --

I used two of the "higher end" RS 3-foot cables (I think they are called AV Fusion...) and one of their "gold" splitter/combiners. Although I did get fully "locked" signals for all channels without the amp, I got an across-the-board improvement when I added the 1171 amplifier.

I don't know any local installers as I've done everything myself, so far.

-- Gary

Gary,

I've always done my antenna installs myself as well - the problem is that I don't have a ladder :D Maybe investing in such an item would be cheaper than an installer....

One more quick question - is it possible to combine antennas pointing in two directions? If so - is it wise? I'd like to be able to receive some of the San Diego stations if possible, once my main antennas are pointing to LA. My gut feeling is that this isn't a clever idea (multipath etc.) but I'd value other opinions. I guess a rotater would be the real answer. Can someone tell me about the value of those little gadgets I've seen that can adjust the inclination of the antennas?

Andy.

Andy,
I edited my last message above to add a photo that shows my mounted antenna. You can see the concrete tile roof that makes ladder climbs exciting. The ladder rails aren't ideally spaced for the tile humps. I've also done my own installation, too. I've gotten used to stepping off the extension ladder onto the roof in one continuous motion, so i'm moving inward in case something slips. I found it's easier to get down by sliding to the edge on my butt, and dangling my feet over the edge and carefully mounting the ladder while facing outward.

You could also rent a ladder from Home Depot. Better to rent a Werner fiberglass ladder than to buy a crummy aluminum one that will wobble when fully extended. I have the aluminum one, it's pretty bad.

If renting, just make sure you have everything you need for the installation on hand.

If you have a tile roof, buy a tube of silicone RTV in case you crack any tiles. I've cracked 2 in probably 35 up/down trips, but I weigh 220. A fillet of RTV on the crack will seal it, and it's not visible from the ground (believe it or not). Today I used 5 minute epoxy instead, because the cracked piece was easily removed so I could apply a glue fillet and reattach it. Actually the Dish Network installer broke the first one, and didn't tell me...

I believe you can add antennas ppnting in different directions, but might give problems if some channels are used in both locations! The signals would be added to each other...

Gary

Interesting antenna Gary - where can I find out more about it? I have to admit - I went to Mar-Vac and looked at the boxes of a couple of WineGard antennas today. The staff were too busy to help me so I left, but it seems that a single WineGard would set me back at least $100 - I could buy two RS Yagis and all the mounting gear for less than that. Do you really get what you pay for? I'm fearful of going to a bunch of trouble/expense and finding it won't do the job....

Maybe I should take you up on your offer to borrow your 2160. I need the mount in place first (and a cable feed to the outside) but I may just PM you on that one.

I think I'll lash a pole to the back/inside corner of my chimney and pop the antennas on that, rather than using the pole mounted to the 'eaves' (sorry - I'm from the UK - I don't know what you call those boards here haha). That way I get a little more hight and a secure pole if I want to couple two antennas together (the jury's still out on that one!).

Andy.

Since the SD transmitters are almost 180 degrees from those on Mt. Wilson and all the UHF channels are different, you shouldn't have a problem combining feeds since the antennas would point in opposite directions.

As for antenna "tilting" you can find info at www.atechfabrication.com but if you go the PVC route you can use tee-shaped "couplers" that work quite well (see the photos earlier in this thread...).

RS and Loew's both have chimney mounts that come with metal straps that go around the chimney. You can then use a 5-foot metal or PVC "mast" attached to the chimney mount for the antenna(s).

BTW, we use "eaves" on this side of the pond as well... :)

-- Gary

Andy,
That antenna is a Televes DAT-75, made in Spain. It has a relativly high gain, 19dB, and there's an optional 17dB preamp that can be installed in the antenna "head". I didn't buy the pre-amp, which Televes calls an MRD. They also have a smaller DAT-45.
http://www.televes.es/ingles/producto/ficha.asp?COD=242
http://www.televes.es/hojastecnicas/103669.pdf

I ordered it from a distributor in the U.K., CPC.
http://custom1.farnell.com/cpc/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=cpc+catalogue&category%5Fname=&product%5Fid=10131 or e-mail: Internationalsales@cpc.co.uk

The shipping cost from CPC is the same for 1 or 2 antennas, and the total cost for two, including shipping, was $198. The transit time was only 3 days. I sold one to Gary Goodrum, who found a new home for it (earlier in this thread). There are enough people locally with signal level problems that selling an extra one should not be difficult.

I'm considering a chimney mount myself. As you can see from my photo, the vertical mast is attached at the antenna's horizontal center of gravity, so it has neutral balance. As I pointed out to Gary, it probably wants to act like a wind-vane, with a tendancy to point upwind! The Santa Ana winds can be fierce where I live, with gusts to 50 and 60mph. I suspect that my mast mount will fail under those conditions. The wind, pushing on that antenna, will exert much leverage on the pipe's single anchor point.

A chimney mount with two widely spaced straps, should offer greater wind resistance than my current mount. The antenna itself is very sturdy, as is its connection to the mast. As long as I use a heavy wall pipe with the chimney mount, it should stay put.

But, your main concern right now is finding something that works. Here's a cheap experiment: Try the Silver Sensor you already have with the RS 15-1171 preamp. Don't worry about a final cable routing, just pass the cable out a window for initial tests. (I did!) If you can't easily get onto the roof (and you don't have a second floor window facing the right direction) then simply mount the Silver Sensor on two 10' lengths of PVC pipe joined together (about $4) and lash it to the side of the building! Or jam the end of the pipe in the ground and use a 6 foot ladder as a support tripod. If you lash the pipe to the top of the ladder with a length of rope, you can manually rotate the antenna for initial tests. At least you can try different locations without hassling with a permanent mount.

Or take the SS out into the yard with a long RG6 cable and try different locations. You may be pleasantly surprised.

Also you will find out that some stations only broadcast DTV during evening hours, like KCET and KCAL. I think KCET is only 8 to 11 pm. Really had me wondering why some stations would be there one day, gone the next.

Gary

I've just spent the last 60 minutes reviewing this thread and am glad that others are at able to get at least a marginal LA DT signal using an OTA antenna. I live in the trabuco canyon area as well and have gotten varying information from many sources regarding the availability of an OTA signal. In know that Cox has been working on providing some of these signals but I'd prefer to keep my DirecTV setup and get local prime time broadcasts via OTA.

I am strongly considering the myHD card for use in my HTPC.

If you guys get together, count me in. I'd appreciate the opportunity to learn from your expermintation.

ddwakeham --

I have a MyHD card in a PC that I use with a pair of amplified RS 1862 indoor antennas and I get pretty good reception (check out this thread for more info: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=222948). I'm sure there is probably some configuration that will work for your situation. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on Cox.

-- Gary

Plus Cox won't be anxious to burn valuable bandwidth carrying free local channels in HD when they could use that bandwidth to sell sell valuable premiums!

Also you will discover that OTA SD has superior picture quality to your present DirecTV MPEG-2 encoded local stations, by a wide margin. Well in retrospect it depends on the TV you're viewing the picture with! A 20" set will look great with that MPEG-2 broadcast, while the same broadcast viewed on a 50+" wide screen will generally look lousy!

Good luck with your experiments, and welcome to the fray...

Gary

The results from the first test are in.

I mounted the SS on the top of a large 1" PVC tube I bought from Home Depot, and then I mounted that tube into the stand/base from a garden umbrella. Connected it to the RS 1171 and from there to the MyHD. The whole thing stands at floor level and puts the antenna around 15 feet from the ground.

Pointing the antenna towards Mount Wilson (324 degrees) I can only get very poor analog reception. I have been unable to receive any digital channels at all from this location.

Pointing the antenna towards San Diego (134 degrees) I am able to receive Digital channels 25 and 55 strongly (75-95 percent), Digital channel 19 is medium strength (45-55 percent), and Digital channels 30 and 40 will come in if I rotate the antenna a few degrees counter-clockwise.

The antenna is not above the roofline (it's approx. at waist level on the second floor). I'm not sure how to raise it further without going on the roof (I still don't own ladders!), and to make things worse I looked in my attic and don't have room for a full-size antenna (at least not a V/U antenna).

Any ideas for next steps anyone?

Andy.

Your San Diego station results are encouraging. The signals will almost always improve with elevation. Are those S.D. major network stations? You mainly want to get the primetime network shows that are all moving to HD. The local news, etc is never in HD at this point. When it finally is shown in HD, we'll all have HD delivery alternatives, like satellite or cable.

Sounds like you either need a rotator, or maybe a small secondary antenna aimed to pick up the strong stations.

I haven't tried many antenna types myself. Gary might have some words of advice. It sounds like you need to try either a larger antenna, or maybe an array. The question is what to try next! The 4-bay and 8-bay bowties are inconspicuous mostly wire construction. Especially inconspicuous against a chimney. See http://www.channelmaster.com/pages/u1.htm

That one I have is both large and conspicuous. So far I haven't heard a peep from the neighbors or homeowners association, but I plan to move it to a chimney mount.

In any case, an attic mount is out of the question if your reception is marginal. I'd suggest a chimney mount for sturdiness and the fact that the chimney hides the antenna to some degree. Find an installer if you don't feel comfortable yourself.

AS I've mentioned before, this is not a concern that any of us had when we bought our houses. we all might have had a more discerning eye in choosing a house if we were interested in HDTV "back then"...

Gary

The San Diego digital channels he lists include the major networks which have most of their primetimes shows carried in HD here.
Mt. Soledad stations (near the coast, La Jolla):
KFMB-DT(CBS)=55
KGTV-DT(ABC)=25
Mt. Miguel stations (inland, Spring Valley):
KPBS-DT(PBS)=30
KNSD-DT(NBC)=40
KSWB-DT(WB)=19

The other two digital TV stations are in SD only including Fox.
San Diego has no digital UPN station at all, only a weak Mexican
UPN analog station in Tecate.

I can pick up all the San Diego digital stations pointing the antenna south without rotating it, by using a 4bay bowtie/screen antenna which has a wider beamwidth than the YAGIs and silver sensor and I am only 25 miles north of San Diego. At your location the angle should be much less, I would suggest you try the 4bay or 8bay bowtie antenna like the Channel Master 4221 or 4228 - you shouldn't need a rotor for all of the SD stations then, only if you also want LA stations.

Andy --

Glad you are able to get the SD stations. My mother lives in Monarch Beach, just south of the Ritz-Carlton, and I wasn't able to get any LA stations there either. I was able to get all the SD stations but, like you, I had to turn the antenna a bit to get 30 and 40. I tried three different antennas, a single SS, a 4221 4-bay BT, like Don's, and a RS 1862. I used an 1171 amp with the 4221 and the SS. It turns out the best performing was the SS/1171 combo. I think the reason is that there was a moderate amount of multipath and the SS did a better job as it is more directional.

Regarding the rotor, I don't know. I couldn't find a single position for any of the three antennas that would allow reasonably dropout-free reception. For all cases I had to move back and forth (about 15-20 degrees...). Using horizontally stacked 2160s will be even more directional.

What antenna(s) did you end up using?

-- Gary

KOCE-DT is not yet on the air and will not be until later this year.

Gary,

Strangely, I ended up using the SS/1171 combo! It's a shame there's no UPN station in San Diego, and I'm still working on getting the antenna higher - if I try to get 30 or 40 by moving the SS I believe I'm firing through the roof of the house across the road. Certainly elevation should help.

I'll report back once I've got more elevation. Thanks for the input.

Andy.

Andy --

If one SS works, two will work better. Check out this configuration:

http://www.ceoanalytix.com/AVSForum/Antennas/Dual%20SS-1.jpg

I've done quite a bit of playing around with SS's in various stacking configurations, using up to four of the little devils! What I found is that you can get a significant signal boost with two in a modified vertical stack, where the "upper" SS is offset by the length of the antenna to the front, and above, in respect to the "lower" unit (hard to describe, see the picture...). I also found this combination works best when the elevation "angle", with respect to the horizon, is a little bit greater than about 45 degrees. You'll notice from the picture that this high "angle-of-attack" causes the center point of the two SS's to "line up" in the vertical direction.

In recent tests using my Zenith HDV-420, a single SS produced the following "numbers":

http://www.ceoanalytix.com/AVSForum/Antennas/Test-SSx1+1171.JPG

Dropouts start appearing at the line between "Bad" and "Normal". This equates roughly to about 37 on a Hughes E-86. The tests were done with the antennas out on my deck.

Here's the readouts when I went to the dual unit configuration pictured above:

http://www.ceoanalytix.com/AVSForum/Antennas/Test-SSx2+1171.JPG

As you can see, it made quite a difference. I recently helped my neighbor install two SS, in a similar configuration, under a 2nd-story eave and it works great. Initially, we used the 1171 amp but the cable run up the wall, through the attic, out a vent and over to the antennas ended up being 100 feet (actually the run itself is less but we were too lazy to cut the 100' cable and put on a new connector so the "rest" is coiled up in the attic...) and he was getting some dropouts so we recently switched out the 1171 and used a CM 7775 in its place so the amp portion could be closer to the antennas. That totally eliminated his dropout problem. In previous testing, I've used as much as 50 feet between the 1171 and the antennas and didn't see any difference in performance in comparison with the 7775. A 100 feet is obviously too much, however.

Here's a couple more pictures, from my earlier testing, where I tried two SS in a horizontal "stack" and then four in a quad arrangement:

http://www.ceoanalytix.com/AVSForum/Antennas/Dual%20SS.jpg

http://www.ceoanalytix.com/AVSForum/Antennas/Quad%20SS.jpg

I don't have all the data formatted like the others but here's a summary: With a single SS and no amp I could get a "locked" signal (dropout-free reception for at least 5 minutes...) on only 3 of the 10 LA stations broadcasting that day. Adding the 1171 added one for a total of 4 stations.

Two SS in a horizontal configuration, and no amp: 5 stations. Adding the amp: 7 out of 10.

Two SS in the "offset" vertical orientation, with no amp: 7 stations. With the amp: 9 of 10.

Quad stack, no amp: 9 stations (!). With the amp: all 10, solidly.

As can be seen, most of the improvement comes from the modified vertical "pairing". I haven't tried the "quad" configuration with my HDV-420 but that's mainly because two of the four that I used are now mounted under my neighbor's eave. Actually, I've noticed that the HDV-420 has a much better receiver, in comparison the the 2nd gen units like the E86 or the MyHD card I have in a PC, so I haven't needed the "extra" performance.

If you're interested, PM me and I tell you what PVC "tinker toys" you need.

Finally, as you are discovering, location changes (up , down, left and/or right...) con make a bigger difference that everything else combined. You need to find the best "sweet spot" you can and then optimize for the best reception.

Good luck!

-- Gary

Comments: I want my HDTV! Any news? I'm calling dish network soon :).

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OK- That's the latest. I can not beleive it !!! - Robhair

Members,

Does anyone know why this thread, that I subscribe to, will not show up on my subscribed list in my CP. I have about 5 other threads that show up, but this one seemed to fall off this week. I can't seem to find a way to save it. The thread shows that I subscribe. Thanks

Robhair

This is such a great thread. I had no idea that those kinds of angles would help with these types of yagis. In my case I am not very close to any significant hills, would it help to try angling my antenna (Winegard 9095)? I did not build any adjustment into the mast since I thought all I needed was a level antenna, if there is a good chance it could help i'd do it. In my case though i'm toying with getting all the San Diego stations.

Woo hoo! There is hope for OTA in South Orange County! Who needs Cox? :)

Last weekend I finally got tired of waiting for Cox to roll out HDTV. I put the RS double bow-tie I bought last year in the attic, figured out the maze of built-in coax wiring in my house to get the signal down to my family room, and hooked up the DTC-100 I bought last year to the Mits VS60803 I bought 4 years ago. The result: 3 stations (KCBS, KNBC, and KTLA).

Today I bought a $25 RS bi-directional amp, and now I'm enjoying *all* LA HDTV stations. This is from the south end of Coto de Caza. I think I have a thin sliver of direct line-of-sight with the LA antennas. Whatever, I'll take it. I'm watching the HDTV broadcast of the Lakers-Clippers game, and really enjoying the show (especially since the Lakers finally went up by 4 points near the end of the 3rd).

It really is amazing that the RS double-bow-tie works as well as it does. I'm 50 miles from the LA antennas!

Sure, it would be nice to get the extra channels like HBO-HD that Cox will offer, but I suspect I'll be enjoying my newfound OTA HDTV for quite a while before Cox finally has their offering in place.

Did I mention: Woo Hoo!

Excellent news Steve!

Now, if you could kindly setup a microwave link pointing to Aliso Viejo and connect your DTC-100 to the end of it I might be able to pick up one LA station!!!

Andy.

Yeah, but then you'd have to wear one of those aluminum foil hats to keep the microwaves from cooking your brain.... :)

Haha - you've seen that website too !!!

Steve --

Glad to hear you've joined the OTA crowd! I'm in Coto as well (in Oakridge, between Cantamar and San Miguel...). You are probably closer to 60 miles from Mt Wilson than 50. The DBT works fine here too but two SS's work a little better in rejecting multipath so if you run into problems with occasional dropouts, this might be an option.

-- Gary

Thanks, Gary! Your posts helped me believe I might have a chance getting an OTA signal after I gave up on Cox. I'm further south than you (just past the South Bend gate), but the calculator at ardman.net says I'm only about 52-53 miles from the LA towers.

I've had zero problems so far with dropouts, but it's only been a couple of days. That DBT is really amazing, and adding the amp just sealed the deal. You'd laugh to see how I have the antenna strung up (literally) in my attic. But, hey, it works!

Thanks, Gary! Your posts helped me believe I might have a chance getting an OTA signal after I gave up on Cox. I'm further south than you (just past the South Bend gate), but the calculator at ardman.net says I'm only about 52-53 miles from the LA towers.

I've had zero problems so far with dropouts, but it's only been a couple of days. That DBT is really amazing, and adding the amp just sealed the deal. You'd laugh to see how I have the antenna strung up (literally) in my attic. But, hey, it works!

Well after reading this post and several trips to many Radio Shack's, I'd like to report that I am now viewing all LA OTA stations my from Dove Canyon home. I took the simple route and bought a single RS 2160 $21 antenna along with their $49 two way amplifier. I installed the antenna on my roof with a 5 foot mast attached to my fireplace. (I'm sure the HOA is gonna love that!). The connection to my HTPC / myhd card is made via a 50 feet run of RG6. The amp is about halfway inbetween in the attic.

I get 70%+ readings with myHD from every station except ABC-DT which is in the 50% range. No signal dropouts as of yet even with the recent rain. My house is situationed fairly high and not in the canyon, however, I must say that I was suprised at how good the signal was from this relatively simple setup.

Even my wife enjoyed the KTLA HD broadcast of the Laker / Clipper game last night and commented about how good the picture looked. The deal will be sealed this weekend if we can actually watch the Academny Awards on ABC via HD on my loaner projector.

My next endeavor is an attempt to get the San Diego stations as I'd like to see their PBS-DT feed.

Thanks to everyone for their help and information on the best setups.

Congratulations! So is the San Diego PBS feed substantially different from KCET in LA? I'm picking up both KCET digital channels at reasonable strength...

I hope that antenna survives the winds we get 'round these parts!

The San Diego KPBS-HD is different from the other PBS stations. KPBS has 20hours of all HD programming every day with a lot of special HD programming they have gathered. I don't think there is another HD station in the entire country that is so committed to HD. When there is nothing in HD on all the other stations, you can always count on KPBS-HD. And they have full DD5.1 audio too!

Thanks for the info, Don! That actually raises a question. I've been flipping through the available HDTV programming for the last couple of nights, and not once has my AV receiver flipped over to DD5.1. My DTC-100 and Denon 3802 are connected with a toslink optical cable and set correctly for 5.1, but no dice. I assume that not all HDTV programs include a 5.1 soundtrack, but I'm suspicious that I haven't found a single one. Is there any way to know when an HDTV broadcast will use DD5.1 so I can confirm whether I have a problem here? Thanks!

So the latest (discouraging) results from Aliso Viejo are in:
After a few weeks pointing my SS towards San Diego (and receiving reasonable signals from 2-3 stations) I decided that I'd messed around enough and it was time to look at getting the LA stations (San Diego is missing some of the networks I'm looking for, such as UPN).

I purchased two RS 15-2160 and installed one of them in my attic pointing towards Mount Wilson. I'm feeding this into an RS 1171 pre-amp and pushing it into my MyHD card.

Even with the additional height afforded by mounting it in the attic I only receive one signal - KCBS-DT (ch. 60) at around 20%. To be fair this is one more channel than I was able to receive from Mount Wilson with my SS, even with the SS mounted outside, but it is dismal nevertheless.

My question is: is there andy point at all in co-phasing the second antenna with the first one, either horizontally or vertically? Both mounting options are a real problem (you know the deal with attics in modern houses....) but I'd give it a bash if I thought it would help. I think I'm just missing the stucco on the end of the house, but it is possible I'm firing through that a little - I understand the ramifications of this....

My feeling is that until I can get the thing outside I'm not likely to get a reasonable picture. Even then I'm not hopeful at this point that I'll get reasonable reception from the majority of signals from Mount Wilson.

I'd really like someone to tell me I'm being pessimistic here and that I have a good chance of fixing my reception issues, but somehow I doubt that's a true statement. What do you guys think?

Andy.

Try a real antenna,not a Radio Shack. Get a Channel Master 4221 or 4228 plus a Channel Master preamp!

I disagree with Don's comment. I have better luck with a pair of 2160s mounted/stacked horizontally (using PVC...) and this same amp then I did with the 4228 and 7775 combo. The 4228, and its half-sized sibling, the 4221, are good at pulling in weak signals but I was having dropout problems with the 4228 occasionally, due to fluctuating multipath problems. The dual 2160s are extremely directional but my dropout problems went away completely. I haven't had a single one for the last two months that they've been up.

I think Andy's problem is attic-related. You really need to get the 2160s outside. If you want to try the stacking route, PM me and I'll help you get the right stuff. It really isn't that hard.

-- Gary

Update -

I finally managed to get the 2x2160s on the roof this weekend, and I'm getting 40%-ish on nearly all the LA-based channels now. I used the PVC cross-member solution (thanks Gary!) which makes it adjustable but I'm not sure how well the directional settings will hold up in the wind, and with birds landing on the antennas.

I ended up putting the antennas about 1 foot below the top of my chimney-stack, so it doesn't look too bad. The only problem that still remains is our old friend KABC. Their signal is (as we know) weak, but it's also quite variable. It can be 25% with no dropouts one minute and totally vanished the next. I guess weather conditions may have something to do with it but I'll keep an eye on that channel and report back.

So - thank you all for your help! I'll try and post pictures if anyone's interested.

Lessons learned:
1. The Silver Sensor is an awesome antenna for its size.
2. The SS can't pick up any LA stations from my Aliso Viejo location.
3. The SS can easily pick up high-strength San Diego Stations from A.V.
4. A preamp is required to get anything with a good signal.
5. The RS-1171 preamp seems to work really well.
6. The Lutron preamp available in Home Depot seems useless.
7. I get a single LA station with a single 2160 in the attic.
8. I get multiple low-strength stations with a single 2160 outdoors.
9. I get most medium-strength stations with dual 2160s 15ft AGL.
10. I get all LA stations medium-good strength with dual 2160s on the roof.

Good luck to all you other South-County HDers!

Andy.

Wow, this thread has been great reading, I thought I was out of luck for OTA HD but it looks like there is hope!

I Live in Portola Hills and have got tired of waiting for COX HD and decided to give my money to DirecTV and am very pleased, HDNET is AMAZING, HBO-HD and SHO-HD is almost better than watching a DVD, really, amazing. I have to have OTA HD now.

I would sure like to hear any comments on installation/antenna ideas in my location. I sounds like a dual SS setup with a RS15-1711 will get me San Diego Channels for sure? Any ideas on setting this up, buying the needed items etc...would be awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seems that are some very knowledgeable people here like Gary and a few other from my area, I would sure appreciate your time and comments!
Thanks,
Tom

Andy --

Glad to hear you are finally getting some LA reception! One other thing that might help is to switch to a CM 7775 "preamp" setup if the cable run from your new "stack" to the 1171 preamp is greater than about 30-50 feet. The 7775 has separate amp and power supply units so you can mount the amp portion up on the roof, near the antennas.

BTW, I'm curious. What elevation angle did you end up with that works with the hill blocking your "view"?

Hi Tom --

Welcome to our growing group of South OC HD "receptors"! Where in Portola Hills are you? I'm guessing you will have better luck getting the LA stations, as Mount Wilson is quite a bit higher than where the SD transmitters are located. If you have a handheld/portable analog TV, try taking it outside and move it around to see what kind of analog UHF reception you are getting. You should be able to get LA channels 28 and 34. Also try 39, which is NBC in SD. This will give a pretty good indication of how good your digital reception will be. If you can get any picture at all on these channels, even if the picture is very snowy and lacks any color, chances are good a setup can configured to get good digital OTA reception, especially if you don't have multiple images/ghosting, which is an indication of multipath - the bane of digital receivers.

Anyway, we'd be happy to help. I haven't seen a problem/case down here yet that wasn't solvable. Andy's situation is one of the most problematic and even he's now getting "decent" reception.

-- Gary

Gary,

I'll check the elevation but it's not severe - probably 10-15 degrees. As you mention above my location has been a problematic one to resolve and now I'm doing okay (40-50% on most channels), so it's certainly encouraging for people wanting to do HD in South County.

Tom - I'm high up on the side of the hill with a clear view over the entire Saddleback Valley towards San Diego, which is a good reason I get great SD reception here. I think you're the other side so as Gary says you'll just need to try things out and see. Your suggestion is a good one - you should start with a SS (and make sure you have a preamp - the RS 15-1171 is generally noted to be an excellent preamp) and a compass and see what happens! A couple of things to help you:
1. I went to Home Depot and picked up a long piece of 1-inch PVC tubing (I guess it's 12-15 feet long). I also bought a 1-inch 90-degree adapter that has (I think) a 3/4-inch hole on the other side. If you remove the SS from the stand and feed the cable through the adapter and then down the main tube you have a tall 'mast' that will help you with your testing for about $2 ! I put a couple of turns of electrical tape on the back of the boom of the SS to keep it in place, and mounted it in the cast-iron base of an umbrella-stand. It held its position towards San Diego without a problem for over two weeks - longer than you'd need to do some testing. The SS is so light that you'll get little bending - it seems safe and it's CHEAP! :D
2. Check out Gary's dual-SS mount. He's had success with a dual-offset configuration. For the cost it's worth trying if you don't get good reception on a single SS.

As always - let us know how it goes, and we're here if you have questions.

Andy.

Thanks for the advice, I am going to Radio Shack and Circuit City at lunch to get these items (SS and Preamp) and will test it to see what I get. Glad the time changed and it is light longer! I will report back and let you know what I found..
Thanks Everyone!
Tom

Well Gang,
I bought the SS from Circuit City and the 15-1171 from Radio Shack. I put a flat board on my Patio Cover and set the SS on the board and pointed South about 140degrees, I was able to pull in 4 DT channels and 2 HD Channels ,KPBS-HD (PBS) and KFMB-HD (CBS), and watched the San Diego CBS Broadcast of the College Basket Ball game in HD! WOW, just amazing. The patio cover is about 10' high. This seems like good news? I am mainly interested in HD Broadcast OTA, but DT broadcasts are okay too! I subscribe to DirecTV w/ Local Channels, so I am mostly interested in the HD OTA, with a nice byproduct of DT OTA!

I don't think I really care if I get San Diego or LA broadcasts OTA, and from an aesthetic point of view, my backyard would be a good place to mount an antenna. My back yard faces East South East, so San Diego and my Back Yard seems to be a real good option for mounting a bigger antenna with community aesthetics in mind. I was thinking of getting a 10' MAST (Fry's $10) and mounting it to one of my Patio Cover pillars (they are 4x4 into cement), this should give me a height of about 17', the SS worked at 10', so a better antenna and a better hight...I should be good?? Is it that easy?

Any comments? Antenna ideas?

Even though the FCC says I can mount my antenna, I would like to try and keep the peace with my neighbors.

Thanks for your comments!
Tom

I did exactly what you are proposing last summer. I used two U-bolts from Frys and a 5foot mast from Frys to mount the mast to one of the vertical wood posts on my back porch cover. I used a Channel Master model 4221 4bay bowtie/screen antenna and point due south. I pick up all the San Diego digital TV channels from 25miles+ away with no preamp. You could use the higher gain model 4228 which has several times the gain of the Silver Sensor. My 4bay bowtie on the 5foot mast hasn't attracted any attention since its so low profile and can't be seen at all from the front of the house.

Congratulations Tom!

FYI - all DT (Digital) OTA stations are HD (Hi-Def) capable. Most stations up-convert their SD (Std-Def) signals and transmit them on their DT transmission for the majority of the time - you'll see that programs transmitted in HD will automatically be picked up by you in HD. You should be getting 1080i or 720p for most of your channels (check by pressing 'OK' on your MyHD remote).

You are right - height is important. The higher the better. I'd really consider Don's suggestion though of a higher-gain outdoor antenna for your long-term installation. Remember that if you are low to the ground you are likely to get multipath reflections that can cause havoc with digital signals, so check that issue out using an analog station.


Andy.

What an awesome group!
I was thinking about trying the RS 15-2160 Antenna? I saw Fry's has the Channel Master 3017, 3018,3019 and 3020, but that seems a bit large?

Any opinions on products that are available locally?

Thanks all,
Tom

The RS-2160 is available at Radio Shack. I called my local retail store who was able to tell me which store had them in stock.

I'd definitely start with the 2160/1171 combo. The 2160 is cheap ($22), readily available and you can return it if it doesn't work for your situation. From my experience, the 2160 will work a little better than the SS, across the board.

-- Gary

CampMaster, those big Channel Master antennas at Frys are combo antennas - the big section is for VHF which you don't need for digital stations in LA and San Diego, they are all on UHF. A single UHF-only antena is smaller and higher gain and cheaper, though they aren't in most of the retail stores. I had to order one online. The CM 4221 is under $25 and the 4228 is under $50 online.

In my tests, the 4221 and the 2160 performed about the same, with a slight edge to the 4221. Its big brother, the 4228 worked better than both the 2160 or the 4221, in terms of signal strength on the STB/PC card tuner. While the single 2160 wasn't quite as strong, signal-wise, it does do a better job in rejecting "occasional" multipath flareups, which seem to be a quite regular occurance for me. Even with the 4228, I was seeing dropouts nightly, even on the stronger LA channels like KNBC (36) and KTLA (31). In my case, dual 2160s solved that problem. With this setup I get the highest signal strength numbers I've ever seen and no more dropouts, at all. I haven't had a dropout since January.

Since you are going for the SD stations, I really don't know which is going to be the bigger problem, signal strength or multipath. I have an "extra" 4221 that I'm not using right now if you want to try that. I also have a couple of "spare" 2160s if you can't find any local. In any case, your problem sounds easier than Andy's was so this should be fairly easy to solve.

Good luck!

-- Gary

Well, the DirecTV guy was here doing my "FREE" 2-room install and did an outstanding job, if you looking for an installer, they were great, PM me if you want contact info. He gave me ideas for my antenna and ran an extra RG6 wire for me from my HD-STB to my new RS-2160. I used a 10' MAST with Radio Shacks Antenna Wall Mounts to my vertical 4x4 on my patio over, so it stands about 15ft high, I am able to get 6 DT/HD San Digeo Stations (The HD channels are 100% signal Strengh;
8-1 KFMB-HD (CBS)
10-1 KGTV-DT (Local)
15-1 KPBS-HD (PBS)
15-2KPBS-DT (PBS)
19-1 KSWD-DT (WD), they say they send out HD? Is that show specific?
23-1 XETV-DT (FOX)
39-1 KNSD-DT (NBC)

and a few Analog air stations..I am very pleased and the install is not obtrusive to the neighbors (I Hope)..I am using the RS 15-1171 Preamp also...would there be any significant gain by trying another antenna?
Anyone know if I am missing any San Diego OTA DT/HD channels?

Did I do it? Did I really do it ? :)

I went to return my COX digital box today, and they did not even ask why I was canceling? I still have COX HSI and Telephone...but no TV!

Guess I will return the Zenith SS to Circuit City unless some one needs one?

Wow, Disk is mounted and 2160 is mounted, I am done....I think?
Guess I better go to work tomorrow to pay for the toys!

I am happy to hear any thoughts, comments or ideas!
Tom

Goodness Gracious Tom - you DO move fast! It took me weeks to get where you got to in a couple of days!

I'm impressed with the massive signal-strength you get from the SD stations - I was getting pretty good figures with my SS but not close to your 100%s!

The best way to check out the stations available to you is to go to
http://www.antennaweb.org and punch in your information. I printed out my station list and use it for a reference. The list includes all the SD and LA stations so it's nice to have handy. I don't see any channels missing from a quick glance at your station list above.

One thing to consider - you may want to hold on to your SS - you might just get the bug to watch LA stations at some point and it's great for testing. Bear in mind that there's no UPN being broadcast from SD at this point so (for me at least) that alone makes it worth trying to get the LA stations.

Again - congratulations Tom.

Andy.

KSWB-DT(19) carries the WB network HD programs, but there is only a few. One of them is on tonight Tuesday 9PM - Smallville. The others are Monday night 9PM Everwood and Friday night Reba.
There is one more San Diego digital TV channel, but its not HD, its channel 18 (51-1) KUSI-DT an independent channel. Are you able to get all the San Diego digital channels from one antenna position, no rotor? Now just check the antenna strength at different times and varying weather.

Yea, I did do it fast, I wanted to be here when the DirecTV installer came and monitor the cable and the install so I decided to take the day off and do it! So far so good, I do see a bit of signal strength fluctuation on SD channel 39-1 KNSD (NBC), it was breaking up a bit for a short while at 30%-35%, then later (10 minutes or so) is back at 75%-77%...but I will monitor.. I want to watch Jay Leno, hopefully in HD!

Don - No rotor at this time, I am pointing at about 140degrees from my back yard. I did do a quick test with the SS out the front window of the house pointing about 300degrees (I know thats no good) and I was still able to get KPBS-HD at almost full strength..amazing, the SS is a GREAT unit. I don't seem to get (51-1) KUSI-DT do you know the location of the transmitter? Thanks from your clarification on the UHF-VHF Channel masters at Fry's, that was very helpful.

Rob, I saw your home and antenna, from a distance, from the road behind your house...looks good. I will take you up on your offer to come by and check it out!

Andy, I was also amazed at the 2 San Digeo HD (PBS and CBS) Signal Strength, but PBS must really be throwing out some wattage, I can get it from my SS in the front of the house..amazing unit (with 1171 preamp)

Gary, thanks for your help and insight. If you get a group of us together, count me in!

I will post and additional findings...wonder what the association will say about my antenna?? Good thing I got the FCC and Section 207 of the communications Act on my side!

Thanks again!
Tom

KFMB-DT(55) and KGTV-DT(25) are together near the coast - that sounds like where you are pointing. XETV-DT(23) is over the border in TJ due south its the farthest away. The rest are all together inland and KNSD(40) is operating on the lowest power - so you might want to point straight at it probably a little more east than where you are pointing now. KPBS-DT(30) has the highest power so that is why you get it easiest.

As I wtach signal strength on the OTA San Diego Channels for the last 24hrs, I had KPBS-HD (15-1) at 100% along with KFMB (CBS/8-1) at 100% last night. This evening, 8-1 is still at 100% but was having some odd audio dropouts tonight, but it NEVER fluctuated from 100%. The KPBS-HD (15-1) also had a 100% signal previously, now it's at about 54%-63% and I have lost KNSD-DT (ABC/39-1) which is now between 0-30%. I watched Jay Leno Last night on 39-1 in HD, it was awesome, no problems...

I am using the RS 15-2160 wit the RS-1171preamp.

Nothing has changed since yesterday, except maybe weather? I wonder if the CM4221 or the CM4228 would be a better choice?
What do you all think?

Anyone have an extra 4228 for sale?

Thanks for your input all!
Tom

CampMaster,

I have an extra 4228 that did not work well for me that you are welcome to try. Send me a PM.

Bruce

Hi Bruce,
Thanks for repsonding to my message. I am hopefully the CM4228 would give me that extra push in gain and distance that I need to get the channels that are just missing @ 30% reception?

I've PM'd you!
Tom

I live on the west side of Aliso Viejo off of Glenwood and Canyon Vistas Down in the Harvest community. Has any one had any luck in this area getting the L.A. stations? If so what setup would you recommend me trying.

Thanks,
Scott

Campmaster --

It sounds like your intermittent reception problems are multipath-related. In that case, the 4228 may not completely solve the problem. It will certainly give you a stronger signal but it also will give you stronger MP signals as it isn't as directional as the 2160. The SS readouts on the STBs and PC tuner cards are more than just a measure of how strong the "raw" signal is. It is really a measure of how well the receiver can pick out and lock onto the main signal over MP reflections and background noise.

Scott --

Sounds like you are close to where AndyS is located. What kind of obstructions are to the north?

-- Gary

Thanks Gary,
How do you think I can solve the multi-path problem? I am currently using the RS 2160 on a 10ft MAST attached to my Patio Cover 4x4 beam..do I use 2-2160 in a vertical configuration and into a 2-1 splitter to my STB?

I am in the canyon area, so the winds can get very bad, so I need to try to keep that in mind.

Any ideas, I am sure open to your opinions!
Thanks!
Tom

Try the CM 4228 bowtie - its wind profile is good and try adjusting its angle to reduce multipath. Sounds like you need more gain which the 4228 should provide. You might also want to try a Channel Master or Winegard preamp instead of the Radio Shack one too - less noise helps too.

Again, I think I have to disagree about the 4228, both from a multipath improvement point-of-view and that it is more robust in the wind. I live in a canyon as well and up until January, I was using a 4228 and a CM 7775 preamp. I had them mounted on a 15-foot pole which was mounted to a 4x4 upstairs deck post. When we had the 70 mph+ winds in January it snapped the pole in half and ripped the RG6 coax from the 7775 connection. The 4228/7775 and the the top half of the pole ended up on the other side of the yard, up against a fence. Since I was having continual dropout problems with this setup, I decided to address the multipath problem and find a spot that was more protected. I ended up with the dual 2160s mounted under the eave in a wind-protected corner of this same upstairs deck. Somewhere near the beginning of this thread is some pictures.

I have also done extensive testing with preamps and amps, and while many will give significant boosts in terms of signal strength, most are very noisy, something an analog receiver can handle but not good for digital reception. The only amp or preamp that I've found that works as well as the CM 7775/7777 series is the Radio Shack 15-1171 cable amp.

Vertically stacking two antennas won't make the setup any more directional in the horizontal plane, but horizontally stacking them makes the combo very directional. With digital reception gain is rarely the problem. I'm 60 miles from the LA transmitters but I can get great indoor reception from a pair of Silver Sensors. The trick is finding the spot that has the least amount of multipath, not where the gain might be the greatest.

-- Gary

I picked up the 4228 from Bruce yesterday, THANKS Bruce!

I will give it a try and see if anything get's resolved. I did get good reception last night on my 2160 on the San Diego Channels that I did not have the night before, so maybe multi-path is my problem?

I guess the 4228 will either verify my multi-path issues or solve my issues, so I will report back when I get the 4228 installed! (hopefully tonight!)

Thanks All,
Tom

hey would you be willing to sell the 4228 to me if it doesnt work out for you. iv been wanting to try that antenna out.

I just installed it up tonight, and will test for a day or two. So far so good, but we'll see. If it does not work out, I will let you know!

Tom

Tom --

Good luck. I hope the 4228 works out well for you. Since you are "looking" the opposite way (SD instead of LA...), maybe MP won't be as big a factor. Given our topography, I suspect it will, and that although at any given point you will see better reception "numbers" with the 4228, you will probably still experience some dropouts. If not, then you are done!

-- Gary

So far, I have to give the CM 4228 a thumbs up for my specific install..it seems to be performing much better than the RS 15-2160 unit in my situation. San Diego's NBC (39-1) was the channel giving me the most problem, but the last two nights have been almost flawless even with the weather conditions. I have not seen any Multi-path issues since the CM4228 went up, if that was the problem I was having with the RS 2160 or it may just have been a gain issue?

I am using the RS-1171 Preamp and that is also helping allot.

Thanks Bruce for letting me try out the CM 4228, I will be PM'ing you to get you paid!

I am getting all the San Diego Channels and am very pleased, between that and DirecTV, life is good! It is great to tell everyone at Good Guys, Realtime, Radio Shack etc...you can get reception around here and it can be great!!! I will post a PIC of my install when I have a chance...it would be cool to see other S. OC installs..

Thanks All!

Tom

anyone else have a cm 4228 or 4248 for sale? maybe even a 4221? gonna want to try these antennas out if the dual 2160 config dont work for me.

Sorry that I used the CM4228 Legend95, I did not forget about you. It seems to have solved my issues as far as I can tell, looks like I really need some additional gain and maybe multi-path was not a big part of my problem? But I guess time will really tell.

Good Luck in your search! This is a great thread, so post your findings!

Tom

Looks like the CM 4228 is working great for my location and San Diego OTA, my reception issues have pretty much disappeared with the 4228 over the RS 15-2160. I think gain was my main issue here and the CM4228 solved it (along with the RS 15-1171). Very Cool!

This forum (OC Thread) has been invaluable in getting me up and running, thanks for everyone's help! I will be lurking and posting to help others out!
Thanks All!
Tom

Tom - did you add the 1171 at the same time as the 4228? I'd still like a little more signal-strength (esp. with ABC) and I already have an 1171 in-line. It's been suggested that I try a mast-head preamp, but I'm curious - what kind of signal difference did you see between the 1171/2160 combo and the 1171/4228 combo?

Andy.

Hi Andy,
I had the 1171 when I tried the 2160 and the 4228. I tried the 2160 w/o the 1171 (Just unplugged the power) and ABC (San Diego) disappeared.
When I had the 1171/2160 combo, ABC San Diego (39-1) was about 0-45% and fluctuating wildly, with the 1171/4228 almost a constant 77%, great improvement. I did not try the 4228 w/o the 1171 yet, but I don't see a reason not to use the 1171 at this point.

I hope the helps you? Any other questions, let me know!

Tom

Tom,

Thanks for the info. FYI - the 1171 is an 'active' device, so unplugging the power would certainly make you lose your stations. This is not the same as removing it from your transmission line. Doing what you did gave you a very effective (if expensive) attenuator!

Andy.

My question for the group is:

Does anyone have a feel for how a single 4228 would compare to dual horizontally-stacked 2160s?

Andy.

All I can say is that for my location, the dual 2160s work better, but that may be because I have a bigger issue with multipath than raw signal gain. The 4228 gave me the highest signal strength numbers on the receiver but I had an almost nightly problem with dropouts on many channels, even those that give the strongest readings normally. After the strong winds blew down my 4228 in January, I switched to the dual 2160s and I haven't had any dropouts since then. Actually, that's not true. I have had a few problems with KABC (7/53) in the last couple of days, but I think the problem is on their end.

-- Gary

Thanks Andy, I did not realize the 1171 is an "active" device. Guess I should try it out of the install completely and see what happens.

Gary can probably answer better, but I think he is using Dual 2160's in a horizontal configuration to help eliminate multi-path issues he is having at his location. I think he has some pic's posted earlier in this thread? Are you having Multi-path issues?

In my case, location, elevation and surroundings, I don't think I am seeing much with multi-path issues so the 4228 seems to be working out great for me and the help in Gain by the 4228 was what I needed. I bought the 4228 from Bruce, who is also contributed on this thread, and it did not work well for him. He is here in So. OC also, and the Silver Sensor with a Channel Master 7775 seems to working great for him in getting LA Channels.

So every install, every location and final placement will vary results. One thing I have learned in this thread, what works for one person may not work for another, only a few miles away.

Hopefully others will post to give you additional insight.

Good Luck!
Tom

Where's a good place to buy the Silver Sensor and/or Channel Master antennas in the L.A. area (Pasadena or Culver City). I'm looking for a place that'll let me return the items if they don't work better than my current Radio Shack Double Bowtie/Holland 25 db amp indoor combination. I think Lowes carries Channel Master antennas, but when I check online none of the models mentioned here are available.

Hi Mark,
I know Circuit City sells the Silver Sensor and so does Sears.. Fry's sells Channel Master also, but I think they only carry the UHF/VHF models?

Hope that helps!
Tom

I live in Colton, CA, not South Orange County, but since I am approximately 62 miles away from the same transmitters that you all are trying to receive, and this seems to be a very helpful thread, I hope you don't mind if I post here.

-----

I purchased a HDTV tuner, and hooked it up to my existing antenna: a Radioshack 15-2151. I got a couple of stations, but a ton of dropout.

I went to Radioshack and asked them what antenna I should get, and they recommended the 15-2156, which I purchased and installed.

I get much better reception with my new antenna, but it still isn't good enough. Every minute or two, my signal gets completely garbled.

My HDTV tuner is the WinTV-HD. When I go to the diagnostics mode, it always seems like I get an all or nothing response. My "errors in the last 20 seconds" is either 0, or it is several thousand. Or else it goes from 0 errors, to losing sync lock.

I'm pretty sure that my gain is high enough (too high perhaps) because I get all of the analog stations fairly well with it. After reading this thread, I decided to buy a RS 1171 to see if it would fix my dropouts. It did not. If anything, it actually made things worse.

I think my problem might be multipass, and not gain.

What should I do next? Should I try the previously suggested dual Radioshack 2160's mounted in a parallel orientation? Should I return my 1171?

Is it possible that my HDTV dropouts are a hardware issue (WinTV-HD), and not a reception/antenna issue?

That Radio Shack 1171 is listed as a cable TV amplifier - why are you using that model as an OTA preamp? Wouldn't the Channel Master preamp designed for OTA be better? The preamp located at the antenna amplifies before loss and additional noise is introduced at the other end of the coax cable.

FWIW...Many have indicated that the WinTV-HD card is a piece of junk. Don't know if this is your problem or not.

While the 1171 may be listed as a "BiDirectional Cable Amp", it has a very low noise factor (around 2.0 dB...) and moderate gain (15dB...) which means it makes a great amp for digital use if, AND ONLY IF, the cable run from the antenna to the amp is around 30 feet or less. The CM 7775 UHF preamp is better for those situations where it isn't possible to get the 1171 close enough to the antenna(s), but I've checked from San Ysidro to Paso Robles and I have yet to find a place to find a place that you can walk into and buy a 7775, a 4228 or a 4221. The 1171, on the other hand, can be found at no less than 4 locations within a 15 mile radius of my house and you can return it, no questions asked, if it doesn't work for you. THAT'S why I will continue to recommend this unit to all who ask.

BTW, most CM and RS amps and preamps were NOT designed for digital at all. These are all basically fairly old designs. The fact that the 7775 is low noise probably has more to do with using it in commercial and/or multi-dwelling applications than anything. That's probably why it isn't sold through CM's normal retail outlets, such as Fry's. Same with the their UHF-only antennas. Before digital came around, how many people needed UHF-only antennas?

Many of the "purists" will say how crappy something like the 2160 when compared to a "real" Yagi design, like a CM 4228 or a Wingard 9032, but I really think that is because they are comparing from an anaolg point-of-view, where you get a varying amount of "watchability" (increasing levels of snow and/or ghosting...). Better antennas will give better analog performance. With digital, the receiver just needs enough of a signal above the noise and multipath refelctions to lock on. Once locked, the picture is 100% perfect. It has been my experience that digital receivers will lock onto even very faint signals but have a much harder time with MP. There's been significant improvement with each generation of receiver in how well they handle MP. The 1st generation, like the RCA DTC-100, did an okay job but there was a noticable improvement with the next generation (Hughes e86, Samsung T150, MyHD and similar ATSC PC cards...). There has also been another improvement in the latest units, like the Sony/Zenith HD200/DAT520, the Samsung T165/TS-160 and the Zenith HDV420. I hear the next generation will have a very significant boost in performance over these latest models as well. So much so that most locations won't need anything more than a indoor antenna like the SS.


Getting back to avoozl's problem, no I would not get rid of the 1171 just yet. First thing I'd try is make sure you have good cable (i.e. RG6 or better....) with good connections. Secondly, as noted above, you need to get the 1171 to within about 30-35 feet of the antenna. If this isn't possible, then I'd highly recommend that you stop and just order a CM 7775 preamp (www.warrenelectronics.com or www.starkelectronic.com). You are far enough away that some sort of low-noise amplification is definitely going to help.

Next thing to try if the amp/preamp does't do the trick is to try a single 2160. You could also try a bigger unit like a CM 4228 but as I continue to point out, this doesn't do as well in severe MP environments and your symptoms clearly sound like very pronounced MP problems, where the receiver repeatly loses lock. You would be better off with CM's Yagi model, the 4248. Or, you can do like I've done and buy two $22 2160s and $10 with of PVC parts, all which can be had locally and, with the exception of the PVC parts, can be returned for a full refund if they don't work.

-- Gary

Originally posted by CampMaster
Hi Mark,
I know Circuit City sells the Silver Sensor and so does Sears.. Fry's sells Channel Master also, but I think they only carry the UHF/VHF models?

Hope that helps!
Tom

Thanks, I didn't think that they had Silver Sensor at Circuit City since it isn't on their website (which also lists local store availability), but I'll pass by and check in person instead of the express checkout I usually do. If that doesn't work, then I'll order the Channel Master 4 way UHF Bow antenna and Channel Master amp through an online retailer as a last resort.

Edit: Actually, it might just be my noisy amp (Holland Electronics HDA-25 http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/3.pdf which has a frequency rage of 54-1000 Mhz, but noise of 7 dB on UHF). I'll stop by Radio Shack and give the 15-1171 "Bidirectional Cable" amp a try with the different antenna combinations a try since it has a lower noise level than my current amp.

Gary: Where do you get your information that the noise is around 2 dB on the Radio Shack amp? Does noise level = insertion loss of 1.6 db on the specs for the RS amp? : http://support.radioshack.com/support_video/doc65/65414.pdf

Mark --

Ihaven't found any actual data on this particular unit but I've tried other RS and CM that had listed NF of 2.5 and they did not work anywhere near as well as the 7775 which has a spec listing of 2.0 dB so I'm guessing the 1171 is around the same. I don't think the insertion loss number is the same thing.

-- Gary

I found a Silver Sensor at Best Buy a couple of days ago. Also, remember that Digital Connection here in SoCal sells them.

Andy.

Mark

If you want to drive a few miles, I have two CM 4228 8 bay bow ties new but unboxed. I will let one go for $25 just to get it out of my garage. I work in the West Valley. Send me a pm if you care.

i pmed you WHEEL01

Originally posted by WHEELO1
Mark

If you want to drive a few miles, I have two CM 4228 8 bay bow ties new but unboxed. I will let one go for $25 just to get it out of my garage. I work in the West Valley. Send me a pm if you care.


Thanks, but that's too big for me since it'll be an indoor antenna (in a closet). I'm going to try out the Silver Sensor and go from there...

WHEELO1 you have a pm

Just came back from Best Buy in Pasadena and got the last Zenith Silver Sensor they had on the shelf. All they have left now are cheap-looking RCA and Jensen antennas...doubt they work any better than a clothes hanger.

The good news is the Silver Sensor and my Holland 25 dB amp work very well together for locking in KABC-7 which is the one I had the most trouble with. This antenna is even more highly directional than the Radio Shack Double-Bow Tie, every little millimiter that I move it registers different signal values on the various channels on the ATSC Aiming utility that comes with the Hipix card. I just need to find the sweet spot where it'll pick up all channels now (just Fox KTTV-DT is missing now, but I won't cry over missing their 480p programming...ABC was much more important).

Mark: what kind of signal strength are you getting on ABC-HD vs. other channels like CBS-HD and NBC-HD?

I live in north Orange County but no matter what I do ABC-HD never has very good reception (just enough to get it to come in, about mid-point on the signal strength meter) compared to most other OTA HDTV channels. I have an outdoor CM 4248 and CM amp.

You stating you have a hard time with ABC-HD makes me wonder if KABC's broadcast signal is weak compared to other local stations broadcasting such as CBS-HD and NBC-HD.

Originally posted by WynsWrld98
Mark: what kind of signal strength are you getting on ABC-HD vs. other channels like CBS-HD and NBC-HD?


Yes, KABC-DT runs at 38% the power of KCBS-DT, so you'll have a harder time tunning in from that far. I finally got it to lock in to KABC-DT and ALL other channels that carry HDTV or 480p widescreen, after finding the sweet spot with a Zenith Silver Sensor and my Holland Electronics HDA-25 Amp.

I've attached a picture of the signal levels I have with this stable no-dropout setting. I've upldoaded additional pictures of my Indoor antenna setup at: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/hdtv-in-los-angeles/lst?.dir=/HD+Equipment&.src=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/

GGoodrum, Thank you for all of your excellent advice.

For anyone who cares how this all started, you can look at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2111821#post2111821

-----
Here is how my story turned out:

I discovered that I had a 50 foot cable running from my antenna to my computer, and that 25 feet of it were tangled up underneath a bush outside my house. I bought a 25 foot cable from radio shack that was "quadruple shielded" and this made my analog reception improve tremendously. However, my digital reception didn't change at all.

So I picked up an 1171 amplifier to see if that would solve my problem. Again, an increase in analog reception, but no more digital channels coming through, and tons of dropout on the ones that worked.

I bought two of the 2160s and tried them out, and all of my reception got worse.

I was beginning to think that ddwakeham was correct, "Many have indicated that the WinTV-HD card is a piece of junk."

So I went down to circuit city and picked up the Samsung sirt-151. I plugged it in (To my original antenna with the 1171 attached), and Viola! All of the digital channels worked, and they worked perfectly.

So I guess that it was completely a hardware problem after all.

Now I just need to return all of my extra hardware to radio shack, and decide whether or not to keep my 1171.

Anyone want to buy my WinTV-HD? :confused:

Just Kidding...I'm sure I can find someone on E-bay who wants to give one a try!

Glad to hear you are "up and running". I have a MyHD card that works quite well. It "shares" an antenna connection with a Zenith HDV-420.

I'd be willing to guess that over the longterm, the 1171 will help you remain dropout-free.

-- Gary

Campmaster-
I just got back from a HOA meeting about my Antenna! The board wants me to fill out a home improvement form and a impact statement. It also wants a drawing as to placement of the antenna. They don't seemed concerned about the antenna itself. The letter stated that they were responding to the TV antenna on the lattice in the back of the house. Since I have no neighbors in the back of the house and you can only see my patio cover from the sides, one of my immediate neighbors to the left and right of me must have complained. I just can't believe people worry about stuff like this! Anyway, fair warning some people in our neighborhood have nothing better to do.

Robert

Robert --

Regardless of who complained, the HOA doesn't have a leg to stand on if you have a completely detached house.

-- Gary

What gets me all hot under the collar is the fact that my HOA expects me to pay a fee to submit paperwork so that they can 'approve' the antennas that I am legally allowed to erect.

Andy.

they're crazy, fee my ass!

Robhair,
I just PM'd you.....

AndyS,
Do they charge everyone a fee to submit any type of architectural form (for painting or room additions etc..) or are they singling you out for your antenna??

Tom

Originally posted by robhair
Campmaster-
I just got back from a HOA meeting about my Antenna! The board wants me to fill out a home improvement form and a impact statement. It also wants a drawing as to placement of the antenna. They don't seemed concerned about the antenna itself. The letter stated that they were responding to the TV antenna on the lattice in the back of the house. Since I have no neighbors in the back of the house and you can only see my patio cover from the sides, one of my immediate neighbors to the left and right of me must have complained. I just can't believe people worry about stuff like this! Anyway, fair warning some people in our neighborhood have nothing better to do.

Robert

The only question you have to ask yourself is if the lattice is common HOA property. If it is, then you need to comply with their rules or move it to an exclusive use part of your property. Once you are certain you don't have it on common property, simply submit to them a $0 fee and a printout of the following: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Robhair's association does not charge a fee to submit an architectural form, it's AndyS that seems to charge, which seems out of the ordinary to me.

mark_la is correct if it is common area wall, but in any case, architectural paper work usually must always be filed when any outdoor changes are made in a community with an HOA. Now, IF, after you submit your paperwork, they deny your OTA antenna application, and you meet the FCC guidelines, you have a strong leg to stand on to fight it. But just the mere request to fill out paperwork is not unreasonable, just as you would if you wanted to paint your house or add a patio cover or a room addition. This is simply another change to the outside of the home, the normal procedures would apply.

It only becomes an issue if they deny the application when you meet the FCC requirements, untill they deny it, it's a non-issue and a request to fill out paperwork, just like any other homeowner for any other type of exterior change, does not in itself go against the FCC ruling.

Hope this helps..
Tom

I think I remember Robert telling me at one point that the lattice was attached to his patio cover so assuming his house is detached, he should be okay. Tom is right though, until they disallow it, I don't think an application request from the HOA is unreasonable. Attaching a fee requirement is a whole different animal. I would fight that to the death! Andy, I'd print out and send them the FCC info Mark posted. It was enough to get my HOA off my back a year ago when they complained about my 3 DirecTV dishes (actually, one was for DirecPC but it's gone now...). I haven't heard a peep since I sent it to them.

-- Gary

Hello All,

After discovering this thread about a month ago, I finally have an HD setup and am ready to attempt OTA. I am currently using the Dish 6000U with the 8VSB tuner cartridge. I would greatly appreciate any advice on possible setup/configuration, even after re-reading this thread multiple times, a lot of the terminology is still confusing. I live on Camp Pendleton, just south of San Clemente. I live maybe 1/2 mile south of the Basilone exit, down in the valley, on the left, next to the 5 ( heading south ). According to AntennaWeb, my best shot is for the San Diego stations is along the 141 azimuth. It seems from my yard, I might have a clear shot ( almost ), shooting straight down the 5, between the nuke plant on the right and mountain ridge on the left. I realize it's mostly trial and error with both direction and elevation. It seems the majority of posters would recommend the RS 15-2160/15-1171 combo. It looks like the antenna, amp, mast and RG-6 can be picked up for around a hundred dollars. Due to the distance to the towers and and a relatively small narrow path, would this be a good starting point, or would you recommend a different antenna? Thanks in advance for your help.

Group,

The OC register had the second day of articles on HDTV. Our own Dwakeman was featured on the roof of his Dove Cyn. Home. So far the info was superficial at best. Just a FYI.

Robert

Gunfighter369,

Sounds like your on the right track. GGoodrum seems to have the most tech knowledge and I think his mother lives along the beach in that general area.

Robert

Thanks Robert,

I await his reply!

Gunfighter369 --

I would say that is a an excellent choice for your 1st "attempt" at OTA reception. Most of the direct path to the SD towers are over water so hopefully you won't have too much trouble with multipath. Here's a simple test: Try using an analog set, like a portable handheld TV, and see what kind of reception you get for SD channels 39 and 15. If they come in at all, even if they are "fuzzy" with lots of snow and not in color, chances are good the 2160 will work for you. The most important thing to check is to see if there are any multiple images, or "ghosting". That is an indication of multipath and the HD receiver won't like it. Also try moving the TV/antenna around your yard and see if one spot is better than another.

Keep as posted.

-- Gary

Thanks for the response Gary. I was hoping to " get it right " the 1st time, without multiple attampts. The RS here in San Clemente has the antenna and amp in stock, so Saturday will be the big day. Thanks again for the guidance. I'll keep you all posted.

You will be extremely lucky if get it perfect the first time. Most of us have had to go thru several antennas and preamp combinations!

Don's right. What works for one location may not work at all someplace else. We've seen that just in this thread. That said, I think I've seen the most success with the 2160/1171 combo. If it turns out the 2160 doesn't work out, you can always take it back and get your $22 back.

Actually, I will be pretty surprised if this doesn't work out for you. My mother's house is on the coast, up from where you are a bit and the 2160 worked better than a CM 4221 4-bay BT model but neither worked as well as a Silver Sensor (with an 1171...).

-- Gary

Gary and Don,

I think I worded my response wrong. I home with two little ones, and making multiple trips up and down the roof and to and from Radio Shack can become difficult. Two additional questions. Gary, you said that the 2160 worked better than the Channel Master, but neither worked as well as the SS. Would I be better off trying to find someone with a SS and go with that first? According to AntennaWeb, I need to go with 141 for the primary channels I want. The other channels are on the 129/130 azimuth, which is blocked by a rather large ridge line, maybe 5 miles away. Would one antenna be better than the other, to possibly aim "in-between" those two azimuth's? Last, does RS sell RG-6 pre terminated? I have around a 35 ft run to make, obviously 25ft is to short. Is a 50 ft run of cable going to cause any problems, and what should I do with the remaining cable? I was under the impression that coiling cable was bad, causes ground loops, etc. Thank you again for the help!

I still think the 2160 is the way to go for starters. First, I'd point it at the "ridgeline" stations and see what you get. You might just get lucky and be able to receive the Mt. Solodad channels too. If not, but you do get the others, you can try in between. Actually the CM 4221, like Don uses, might work better in this scenario as it is somewhat less directional but I still think I'd start with the 2160. It will handle multipath better than the 4221. BTW, did you ever try the test with an anaolg TV to see if you get any ghosting?

As for cabling, if you need 35 feet, I'd get one 25-foot cable (RG6 and yes RS has them...) and one 10-foot and put the 1171 in between. Ideally, it would work best if the 10-foot section is connected to the antenna. If you can get power outside you could mount the 1171 under an eave or something. It is a sealed unit and is very sturdy. The point is that the amp loses its effectiveness the longer the run is from the antenna. 25 feet is probably okay but 35 is too much, I think. A CM 7775 "preamp" in place of the 1171 would solve this problem, as the amp portion is separate from the power supply so you can mount the amp with the antenna and the PS inside (it feeds power back up the cable to the amp...), but it is about $60 and you'll have to order it online.

If it turns out the 2160 won't do the trick, I have a spare 4221 that you can try and if that won't cut it either I have another idea. I use two Silver Sensors mounted one above and in front of the other and at a 45 degree "angle-of-attack". These are then connected together and routed through an 1171. I use this combo inside, in a loft, pointing out through a skylight in my living room, towards Mt. Wilson. I have the output of the amp routed to a Zenith HDV-420 and a PC with a MyHD card. This setup works amazingly well and I get very few dropouts and most of those are on the MyHD card (maybe one a week...). I probably just got lucky and found the perfect "sweet" spot but when my neighbor asked me help him get setup we had a real problem with his wife not wanting a big ugly antenna outside, and inside was not an option. What I did for him is the same dual SS setup but we mounted them under an eave, outside. It works great! Anyway, I haven't tried this setup at my mother's yet but the only setup I've found that works better at my place is dual 2160s. Somewhere in this thread are some links to some pictures but to save time here's one of the dual SS setup again:

http://www.ceoanalytix.com/AVSForum/Antennas/Dual%20SS-1.jpg

You know, to start you probably don't need to mount everything on the roof from the git-go. I think you could get a 10-foot mast (from Lowe's or Home Depot...) and mount the antenna on it so you can move around the yard a bit to see if one spot is better than another. One member here lashed one these to a step ladder for this purpose. That way you can use shorter cable runs for the amp so that you can remove it from the "unknown" category when you are testing what works and what doesn't. This will make the pointing test much easier to do. Also, if it turns out the 2160 isn't doing the job, it will make it easier to swap it out and try the 4221 and/or a pair of SS.

-- Gary

Gary,

I was going to go with a 10ft mast, mounted to one of the 4x4's supporting my awning. So I will definitely try supporting it with a ladder to try and find a "sweet-spot". I have a 13" TV I can bring outside to try out the antenna set-up before affixing it. Couple more questions for ya'... the 1171 preamp is powered? So I'll need to plug it in and run a second cord, or does it get it power through the RG-6? I ask, because looking at the picture on the web site doesn't show an additional connection of a power line. Mounting the pre-amp outside isn't a problem, there's plenty of places to hide it. So I want to mount as close to the antenna as possible? Okay, 1st use just the 2160 and see what kind of signal I can pull in. Then, add the 1171 to see if that improves anything. If the run is 35ft or greater go with the CM 7775. And if nothing works, then a different antenna is the next setp. Thank you. I have a good plan in place now. Again, I greatly appreciate the advice!!! If you can think of anything else, I check the forum regularly, and hopefully I'll have some positive results to add Saturday night! :)

The 1171 needs its own power-brick power supply separate line.
Gunfighter, I did similar to what you are proposing - I mounted a 5foot mast (got at Fry's for $5, they have 10foot masts too that are extendable) to a 4x4 wood post on my back porch cover. I used 2 U-bolts to attach the mast to the post. My best results in my area have been with the Channel Master model 4221 4bay bowtie and I need no preamp at all for all the San Diego channels, but I am inland. At my location the CM4221's beamwidth (about 60 degrees) was perfect to receive all the San Diego stations by pointing due south. Some of the stations are to the south-east and others are south-west, so a too directional antenna (like the YAGIs) might require a rotor otherwise, but the bowties are wide enough to do it without a rotor in this case. Since the 4221 was only around $25 - this was also the cheapest solution for me that worked. I needed an outside RG6 coax cable run of around 75feet. I am now using two 50feet sections joined together, I didn't see any difference between this and 1-50foot + 1-25foot section. 100feet of RG6 coax is under 1db of loss at UHF frequencies, so its not really an issue - I wouldn't worry about 35foot!

Thanks Don. Does the 1171 come with it's own power cord and if so, how long is it? Also, where is the 4221 available? I just called my local RS and them and pretty much every other RS searched were out of the 2160 antenna. How large of an antenna is the Channel Master? One last question. Do antenna's require a ground of some sort? Should I ground the antenna to the mast and the mast to an earth ground or is this overkill?

The 1171's power supply line is like typical power brick supplies about 6feet.

Here is a link to where I bought my CM4221, it shows a picture and dimensions - its very low profile:
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4221.htm

Thanks for the gouge Don. I was kinda' hoping to find it somewhere local. Hmm.... only a 6 ft. power cord. I guess I'll have to run an extension cord out there.

Gunfighter,
I have an RS 15-2160 that I was about to return to RS - in Rancho Sana Margarita this weekend. If you want it, I will sell it to ya instead of returning it if you are having trouble finding one.

I am located in Trabuco Canyon, in my situation, I am using the RS15-1171 and a Channel Master 4228 on the 4x4 post of my patio cover with a 10ft mast and it is working VERY well for my for San Diego, CBS, NBA, ABC, FOX ,WB and PBS. I am pointed about 141degrees.

Let me know if you need the antenna!
Thanks,
Tom

Thanks for the offer Tom! I appreciate that. I'll let you know by Fri morning. That gives me the rest of the day today and tomorrow to search around some more! If I can ask, what elevation are you at and how's your line of sight in that direction?

Like I said, I have a spare 4221 if you need or want to go that route. At your distance I think it is safe to say an amp is definitely going to help. If you have a 110V outlet in your patio using the 1171 will be easy as nd the run to the antenna will be short. Going from there, as Don points out, can be pretty much any length because it is after the amplification. Going straight from the antenna to the receiver might be fine for longer distances but if you are going to amplify the signal you need to place the amp as close as possible to the antenna. Otherwise you are also amplifying the extra noise and that gives fits to digital receivers.

-- Gary

Now ya'll are going to make me decide??? ummm.... I'll take whichever antenna works best please! Unfortunately, no outlets on the porch. But, there's plenty of places to hide an outdoor cord, so no worries there. Can the amp attach directly to the antenna? Or do I need a 6"/1ft section of cable to "splice" it into the path? Again, thanks for the assistance and offering up your spare antennas! Now I guess I just need to make up my mind.

Gunfighter,
I am about 1450' altitude and have a great shot at 141degrees, with the home next to me below me and the houses behind me also below me...so I think I am in a good position. My 4228 is only about 15'-17' off the ground and is working VERY well from my patio cover.

Hope that helps!
Tom

I wish I had a chance for reception from either L.A. or S.D. I'm in north San Clemente on a valley hillside, with higher terrain in both directions. I'm stuck with my DirecTv HD stations until Cox gets their act together. :mad:

Originally posted by CampMaster
Gunfighter,

I am located in Trabuco Canyon, in my situation, I am using the RS15-1171 and a Channel Master 4228 on the 4x4 post of my patio cover with a 10ft mast and it is working VERY well for my for San Diego, CBS, NBA, ABC, FOX ,WB and PBS. I am pointed about 141degrees.

Let me know if you need the antenna!
Thanks,
Tom

:) Campmaster-

I'm sure you meant NBC not NBA. For a split second I thought I could watch some of Marc Cuban's HDTV.

Robert:::p

Tom,

I wish I was in your situation. I'm actually below the 5, not sure of the exact elevation. Thankfully, I have a pretty good line of sight down the coast. I think I'll give your 2160 a try. If you'd like to PM me we can set up a meet somewhere anytime Sat or Sun is good for me.

Gary,

You're not planning on disposing your antenna anytime soon? If the 2160 doesn't quite do the job, I will gladly take your spare and see what I can do with that.

Oh.... one last question. when I make the attempt with the antenna hooked up to my old 13" TV, what exactly am I looking for. If I can pick up a channel, should I assume that I'm good to go for that particular station. Seeing as how it's an older analog TV, if any picture comes in, does that mean I'm getting the digital signal also? Gary, you had mentioned something about ghosting. That's when you see double images on the screen correct?

I see some discussion relative to the loss of RG-6 and I think there is some misconception on how 'lossy' RG-6 is.

As a point of reference, 3dB loss is equal to losing half of your signal strength.

The loss of RG-6 per 100 foot run is:

50 Mhz = 1.4 dB
100 Mhz = 2.0 dB
200 Mhz = 2.8 dB
400 Mhz = 4.3 dB
700 Mhz = 5.6 dB

You should also add .1 dB loss per connector.

So, for the Los Angeles CBS DT chan. 60 (746-753 Mhz) the loss is nearly 6 dB which equates to 1/4 signal strength or you are losing 75% of the signal in a 100 ft coax run ...!!!!

This might explain why some of the fringe areas to Mt. Wilson are having trouble receiving KCBS DT.

remrich --

Thanks for the info! What I've found is that if I can get a very low noise amp close enough to the antenna, 100 foot runs after the amp are not a problem. Also, for a lot of us "fringies", KABC is more of a problem, due probably to their lower power output.

GF --

If Tom's 2160 doesn't work, you can have my 4221. Re: the analog test - Yes, "ghosting" is multiple images which are caused by multipath reflections off of mountians, buildings, etc. If you don't get the multiple imaging, that is very good news in your quest for digital reception. If you don't have a lot of MP a digital receiver will lock onto very weak signals, similar to a very snowy picture on an anaolg set.

Does your analog set have a UHF antenna on it now? Usually it is just a loop of heavy wire. Anyway, if it does you can try the test now. The point is to try and use this test to see what kind of antenna might work best before you purchase one. If the set doesn't have one you can make a simple one out of a coat hanger. I'm serious, it really will work. If you can get the set and its "antenna" outside in your patio so it can "see" the same direction your permenant setup will, it will help give a better idea of what you ultimate digital reception might be like. Channel 39 (NBC is SD...) is a good one to try because their digital channel is 40. I think some of the other digital channels are 25, 30 and 55. If you can get analog UHF channels close to those (help me out here Don...) that will also be indicative of what kind of digital reception "problems" you might have. Again, the main thing to look for is whether or not you get ANY reception and then see if the picture is relatively "ghost" free.

-- Gary

Gary,

Would a simple set of rabbit ears suffice? ( not quite sure how to plug a coat hanger into the coax input of the tv...... ). I should try and pick up Channel 39 first. If good, then thier digital signal on 40 should be no problem. Right? Getting the set and antenna outside is no problem... it's just a 13 incher, so good to go there.

GF --

If you already have an old set of rabbit ears that has a coax cable then yes, give it a try. Most older TVs have separate UHF and VHF 300 ohm inputs which are nothing more than screws on a terminal block. The "loop" antennas would simply be screwed onto the UHF terminals. If your set is newer, and simply has a coax input then you'll need an external set of "ears". Most of those come with a UHF loop.

Does the 13-inch model you have already have a built-in antenna? If so, use it as is. If not, and you don't already have a separate one, don't bother. Buying one will cost as much as the 2160.

-- Gary

Nope, no built in antenna. I believe it only has one coax input, and no RCA connections ( not that those matter ). So the ears are for VHF, the Loop is for UHF?

Yes, if there is a separate loop, it is for UHF. If not, the rabbit ears should work, assumming it has a coax output. If not, you'll need a 300-75 Ohm transformer. What do you have?

-- Gary

Unfortunately, I'm at work, but I believe I have a set of telescoping antennas. The cable itself is flat, and attaches to a box that slides over the coax connector on the TV. I guess I'll give it a try when I get home, just to see what I can get.

That "box" is the transformer so you should be good to go. You will probably get better luck using them for UHF if you don't pull the "ears" out all the way.

-- Gary

Then that's what I'll do Gary! Again, thanks for all the inofrmation. I've learned quite a bit in the past couple days. Now I can't wait for this weekend to start trying stuff out!!!

Hey GF,
Just PM'd you!

Tom

Hi Guys,

Picked up the 2160 from Tom on Sun. Got a 10 ft. mast from Lowe's and the 1171 amp. In the process of putting everything together and ran into one small problem........ and this is gonna' be a dumb question, but..... which way should the antenna point? Do I aim it like an arrow at the station ( transmitter -> <-- antenna ) or do I aim it back wards ( transmitter -> --> antenna ). Hopefully that makes sense. Thanks guys.

Alan

GF,
Glad to see your moving forward! FYI, there are NO dumb questions!

Point the Antenna (-->) to the Transmitter (<--) @ 139degrees. The correct pointing of the antenna should be with the long portion of the antenna pointing toward the San Diego Transmitter.

Let us know what happens!
Tom

Tom,

So to clarify, the 'point" of the arrow should be away from the transmitting staion? Yes?

Gunfighter369.

Think of it like a satellite dish. <------------- toward the south.

Robert

Alan,
In a quick answer, yes.

The "Arrow" or "V" portion of the antenna is the BACK of the antenna.

The front (receiving) of the antenna is the long portion, that should be pointing toward the San Diego Tower, which would mean that the back portion, "V" or "ARROW" would be pointing in the opposite direction.

It should face as follows;
SD Transmitter ---->
|
|
|

Does that help?
Let us know!
Tom

Gunfighter,

Look at Garyjc's reply on page 4 of this thread. It gives you a good idea on which way to point. He's pointing away from his house.


Robert

Gunfighter369,

Look at Garyjc's reply on page 4 of this thread. It gives you a good idea on which way to point. He's pointing away from his house.


Robert

Got it guys. Thanks again for the help! Glad I asked now until waiting to try and figure out why nothing worked.........

Traded my Televes75 for CM4228. Campmaster lives about 3/4-1 mile from my location in Portola Hills and after seeing the profile of the 4228 compared to the six foot length of my dat75 I decided to order one and give it a go. I was receiving ABC,CBS,WB,FOX,UPN,PBS from San Diego and CBS,NBC,WB from Los Angeles with no dropouts. I was also getting various other stations intermittently. I was happy with the reception but neighbors still questioned the size of the antenna. Since I was asked to formalize the antenna placement with my HOA, I decided to try one last combo.
Here' the results- 4228 with no amp-ABC San diego. 4228 with 1171 ABC San Diego + KTLA Los Angeles. 4228 with 1175 pre-amp all the San Diego stations and all the LA stations I got before with the exception of CBS (LA) which seems to come and go. It seems to me that the 1175 pre-amp was the key. GGoodrum what's your thoughts of this. What does needing the preamp say about the area I live in?? If anyone would like to try out my Televes PM me and we'll work it out.

Robert

Okay, now I'm confused. How were you getting both the SD stations AND the LA ones too?? Do you have a rotor? The LA stations are 180 degrees from the SD transmitters. You must just be turning it to see what you get, right?

Anyway, I don't know what an 1175 is unless you are talking about a CM 7775 UHF preamp. Assuming you are I think the difference is the cable run between the antenna and the 1171. If it is greater than about 25-30 feet the performance will drop significantly. I'm guessing you have the amp portion of the 7775 mounted on the mast with the antenna, right?

FWIW, I used a 4228/7775 combo for a couple of months and although at any given time I got very high SS numbers, I experienced almost daily temporary dropouts. If you are going to go for the SD channels, which are about the same distance, maybe closer, you might not see the same problems. Before you let go of the DAT75, you might want to see how well the 4228 works over a few days.

-- Gary

Gary

Yes I have a rotor and yes it's the 7775. The amp box is about three feet away fron the antenna bolted to the mast. The cable run is about 75 feet so that must explain why the 1171 made no significant difference. The signals seem strong at this time. I hope they hold up.

Robert

I'm trying to locate someone in either the San Fernando Valley or Santa Clarita Valley that could advise me as to whether reception is possible in Valencia and if so, to set up an install appointment. Or alternatively, perhaps I could hire someone to "test" reception capability at my home to find out what my options are?

Anyone have any leads on who (or what company) to call to arrange any of this?

Thanks,

RobbW

I used Marcelo at Digitime for my stacked installation. He's located in Valencia, pager # is 310-724-1897.

His tel # is 661-299-1410.

He does top quality work.

Thank you!! =)

RobbW

You're welcome!

I'm new here and am about to purchase Direct tv with HD receiver and wondering if anyone in Encino -south of blvd has tried to get OTA reception of local high def signals. And is there any recommendation for hiring someone to figure out what works and then install it? One other question: For times when the local OTA high def signal "goes out" or has some other flaw, can you still get Direct tv's signal for the local station, or does using this OTA method prevent you from getting the non-HD signal from Direct tv?

Hi markt170,
I have DirecTV and OTA running through my STB (Sony HD200). You can get either OTA or DirecTV Local channels at any time, so if your OTA is not working, you will still be able to get your local channels via DirecTV (As long as you subscribe to Local Channels with DirecTV).

I can't answer your local OTA question, as I located in South Orange County, but I am sure someone will respond to your question!

Hope this helps you,

Tom

Hi Guys,

Status update. Got the antenna up and mounted. 10ft mast on the side of the house attached to the car port. The antenna itself is about 6 ft higher than the roof of the house and has a clear shot to the correct azimuth. There's an 8 ft run of RG-6 to the -1171 amp and then a 50 ft run from the amp to the other side of the house, to the TV. Still waiting on the UPS guy to arrive to actually install the OTA tuner. Should be here any minute!!! Two questions.... 1. I couldn't get the amp any closer to the antenna output without running a 25 foot extension cord up the roof. Anyone see a problem with this. 2. Is the -1171 and a 50 ft run too much. I could probably get by with 35 feet from the amp to the TV, but haven't found any pre-terminated RG6 at that distance. I know, I know.... hook everything up and see how it performs. I just am getting nervous about something not working! Anyway, thanks again for all the help guys and I'll let ya' know how it turns out!

Alan

Hey Alan,
good t hear! Let us know when the Tuners is installed!

I know I have read in Gary's posts about the 1171 and distance. He mentioned the 1171 is good for about 25-35ft of RG6 cable run. Any longer than that and he recommends the Channel Master 7775. He may be able to chime in with more info.

My run is about 50ft with 1171, and tonight I am going to try to take it out of the loop and see if I lose any OTA signal or signal strength. I know there are a few San Diego Digital channels that my STB detects but it's a black screen when I go to that channel and I wonder if the CM 7775 will help that situation?

Let us know what happens!
I will chime in on my update with my 1171 experiment tonight...

~Tom

Mornin' Guys,

I was gonna' post last night, but the boards were screwy! First off, I like to say thanks to everyone for the help, especially Tom and Gary! UPS guy showed, plugged the tuner card in, plugged the pre-amp in and did a search for digital stations. Picked up ALL 7 off the bat! It was that darn easy! The two PBSs are at 100%. ABC, CBS, NBC, UPN and the WB are all between 76 and 88%, with ABC being the lowest. Fox hovers down around 55, but the picture seems fine, didn't cut out in the 45 min or so that I watched. All the channels look great, no pixelation or drop outs. Audio was good too, no lip syncing problems. The HD PBS channel is GREAT! I even stayed up to watch Leno, something I normally don't do. WOW!!! Even the standard def stuff is soooooooo much better than what I get through Dish. MY two azimuths are 130 and 140, so I pointed the antenna somewhere are the 136 mark. I think this weekend I'll play around a lil' and see if I can fine tune it. Again, THANKS SO MUCH for all the assistance. Hard to believe it was this easy. I think I'm one of the lucky ones!

Alan

Great to hear Alan!
Welcome to HD, glad it worked out for you! I know you had a specific line of sight to follow, so it's good to hear it was a workable solution!

Enjoy!
~Tom

Alan --

Congrats! You will be blurry-eyed by the end of the week!

To clear up one point about using the 1171 vs the 7775, it is only the distance from the antenna to the amp that is critical, not from the amp to the receiver. You need to have as little induced noise in the signal as possible before you amplify it or otherwise the noise gets boosted as well. I've run as much as 200 feet from an 1171 to a receiver with little descernable loss of quality. Anyway, eight feet is perfect, as you are seeing!

Anyway, glad you're on board. I just get all giddy whenever someone else joins our little club here and can tell Cox to shove it!

-- Gary

Gary,

There's a club? Do I get a name tag or secret handshake or something??? Heh heh heh. I understand ya' now about the amp. I've got about an 8 ft run between the antenna and amp, in order to mount the amp out of the weather. Otherwise, it would be up on the roof, and I don't have a long enough extension cord. Would I possibly see any improvement in signal strength by moving the amp closer to the antenna? I'm sure getting the cables up there would be no problem, but what/how do you seal up the power input to the amp? Any thoughts on how to keep moisture out.... don't want a short or electrical fire up on the roof!

Alan

The best preamps (i.e. lowest noise), like the Channel Master 7775, get their power thru' the coax cable so you don't have to run a line cord up to the preamp.

I did not know that Cymro. Hmmmmm........ something to think about. Or should I just suck it up and be happy with what I have?

You are right, the 7775 is easier to use but it isn't available locally and you can't send it back if it doesn't help your situation.

I had one other case with a friend's setup, up in the SF Valley. He's a lot closer to to Mt. Wilson (about 15 miles...) so I originally didn't use any amp with his setup (two Silver Sensors, see one of the earlier pages in this thread for a picture...). He was getting some occasional dropouts on a couple of channels so I decided to try an amp to see if it would improve things. I first tried an "extra" 7775 because there was no power available on the roof but it made everything completely worse! I think it was because it was totally overpowering the receiver. Next we tried an 1171 and used a long extension cord to get it within about 10 feet of the SS combo. The "numbers" on his HD200 readout went up for every channel. My only explanation is that the 1171 has a gain of 15 dB vs. 26 dB for the 7775. As I've said before, gain for digital reception is less of a problem than getting rid of multipath reflections. Anyway, we moved his SSs to another corner of the house and mounted the 1171 under an eave where he already had power (for Christmas lights...) and he's been dropout free since then.

-- Gary

Thanks Gary and Cymro,

I think for the time being, I'll leave it as is. Between $$$ and the limited amount of time I've spent with it, this is probably the best way to go. So when do I get to learn the handshake?

Alan

I would sure like to know the handshake also!

Maybe we can do a small get together for coffee somewhere and meet for a short while?

It would be great to put faces to the names!

~Tom

markt170,
You should have no problem in Encino unless there's a huge building between you and Mt. Wilson. Your antenna will need to point to compass bearing 65 degrees NE from you. A good indicator of wether you will get OTA digital reception is if you can get any kind of picture even snowy on KCET channel 28 (UHF analog). I'm at Sepulveda and the 101 and get high strength with a not-great Terk antenna on a single-story house.

The OTA and DirecTV locals should appear as different channels in your guide, e.g. KCBS is 2 (DirecTV) and 2-1 (OTA).

Tony

I've been reading through this thread here and there and can't determine whether or not I'd be able to get any HD reception from Huntington Beach with these antenna's and amps you guys are using. Also, what does a CM4228 and CM7775 UHF amp run cost-wise?? I love my TV's HD pictures, but the SD looks pretty bad with DirecTV, so I'm to the point where I'd like to try experimenting with other options. Also, I'm currently living in an apartment on 2nd floor of the east side with a pretty large balcony. It works great for the dish, but how much more obtrusive would these antenna's be?? My neighbors really don’t care and the apt. complex doesn’t mind the dish, but I'm not sure I've seen one of the antenna’s before (unless it just looks like a regular antenna). Sorry for the newbie questions, I'm just trying to get a grip on what all this would require, IF I can actually get reception from where I’m at. Thanks for your help/feedback!


-Matt

Mattwiks, I have a slightly used CM 4228 i'm willing to sell you. I tried it and didnt pick up anymore channels than my Winegard 4400. So im just gonna stick with the winegard. Anybody know of a installer around the Pasadena area. I'm getting sick of trying to get KABC and would rather just pay someone to solve my problems. Also do you guys think im getting a multipath problem? I get no dropouts what so ever on my other channels but KABC just doesnt come in at all. I tried watching the non digital channels and reception seems pretty good. I'm able to get KABC fairly clearly. Anythoughts?

Hi Mattwiks,
if you can get the 4228 from someone here, you can save yourself some money. If you go through a Channel Master Distributor (i.e. http://www.warrenelectronics.com is one), the CM4228 runs about $61 shipped and the CM7775 is about $62 shipped.

You can check http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Address.asp to see the type of antenna you would need and directions to point the antenna and that should give you an indication of your chances of success.

You can also try a quick install, with a Silver Sensor from Sears ( http://www.sears.com/sr/product/summary/productsummary.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0068500744.1051845036@@@ @&BV_EngineID=ccfhadcielgejmmcehgcemgdffmdflg.0&vertical=SEARS&bidsite=&pid=05768514000 )or Circuit City for around $40 and see if you get anything on the DT or HD stations OTA, you may find that it may do the job on it's own or with an amp, perhaps a Radio Shack 15-1171 for around $50..lot's of options and no hard and fast rules, trial and error. The local options are good to try first, as you can return the products if they don't work...

Hope this helps!

~Tom

Tom --

I like the coffee idea. Let's pick a place and a time. I had planned on hosting a get together but the "crowd" is getting pretty big! We should pick a place somewhat centrally located like in Mission Viejo someplace.

Matt --

Where you are you should get great reception with a single Silver Sensor and an 1171 amp. The SS is small, kinda cool looking and easily mounted on your balcony. You might even get lucky and find a spot indoors that works. Even on the balcony. The 4228, which is about $50, is overkill for sure at your location. The thing is not small either(about 4 foot square...). The 7775, which is over $50, is a two-piece unit and is used in cases where you have long cable runs between the antenna and the amp. Not a problem in your case.

-- Gary

Thanks for all of that great info. guys, that clears up a lot of questions for me! My g/f's going to be shopping at Westminster Mall today so I'll have her pick up a Silver Sensor at Sears while she's there. I'll try hooking it up during my lunch hour and see if I can get a signal, if not I'll go get the 1171 amp after work and then try that. I wasn't sure if those big antenna's were needed for everyone to get digital signals but I guess it makes since that you shouldn't need something so powerful if you're not too far from the city. I'll make sure to let you guys know if it works out, but I'm hopeful it will. Thanks again!!

I live on Woodman and Victory and get 100 strength on all locals (except for KABC which is at 65 but no breakups). I have a winegard 4400 that you can borrow and try out. ( I bought a 8800 for my use, but the 4400 should be enough for you). E-mail me and let me know if you want to use it.

OK Guys, explain this! I woke up today and as is my ritual, I checked my OTA with the new 4228. The rotor was pointed toward LA and everything seemed fine until I left channel 9.1 (kCAL nothing this morning) and landed on 10.1. For whatever reason I'm receiving ABC (San Diego) while pointed at the LA feeds. It must have something to do with the rain? It's coming in very strong, no dropouts. Anyone have a theory? This happened once before with the Televes75 with CBS, but didn't last long. Is this some form of multipath? Everything seems OK with the new 4228 setup. The Televes seems a little more efficient. I can't get CBS (LA) at all. I'm still fiddling with the rotor a lot.

Robert

Simple. It is coming throught the screen from the back. Without the screen it would probably work great in your special situaton where the LA and SD stations are almost exactly 180 degrees from each other.

-- Gary

Hey Rob, I'm just jealous that you get LA stations and I can't! I only live a mile from you!

:)

~Tom

You are probably seeing a propagation phenomena known as ducting. Ducting occurs when cool winds from the ocean blow across the land. This creates a band (or duct) of cool air trapped between two layers of warm air. Once radio signals (typically in the VHF and UHF bands) enter this duct, they effectively 'bounce' inside the duct, with some of the signal penetrating the top and bottom of the duct on each bounce. This anomaly can greatly extend the range of communications. For UHF, ducting can extend the range from 40km to over 400km. However, severe atmospheric disturbances, such as tropical cyclones, destroy ducting by disrupting the temperature inversion.

I have seen Chan 2 here in So Cal be overridden by Chan 2 in TX.

r. emrich


Originally posted by robhair
OK Guys, explain this! I woke up today and as is my ritual, I checked my OTA with the new 4228. The rotor was pointed toward LA and everything seemed fine until I left channel 9.1 (kCAL nothing this morning) and landed on 10.1. For whatever reason I'm receiving ABC (San Diego) while pointed at the LA feeds. It must have something to do with the rain? It's coming in very strong, no dropouts. Anyone have a theory? This happened once before with the Televes75 with CBS, but didn't last long. Is this some form of multipath? Everything seems OK with the new 4228 setup. The Televes seems a little more efficient. I can't get CBS (LA) at all. I'm still fiddling with the rotor a lot.

Robert

Hey r. ,
Well, very interesting. I also get an "override" from channel 19.1 (San Diego) when on 15.1. I switch to 15.1 and the WB 19.1 takes over. Do you thing ducting is causing this also?
Robert

Looking for antenna help in North Tustin, CA

Currently have a CM 4248 (Yagi) with a rotor teamed with a CM amp and a Toshiba STB. According to reception maps from Mt. Wilson, I live in a "shadow" area making reception a challenge.

I get KCBS in with a strong signal but all other LA stations vary with rotor direction, weather, etc, and top out at a reading of around 60 on the STB.

I'm contemplating a few changes and would gladly welcome anyone's input. My options to improve reception are:

1) Add another CM 4248 horizontally mounted

2) Try a bow-CM 4228

3) Try a new Yagi, i.e. Blake JBX21, Lance (viewable at www.antennaperformance.com)

4) Any other ideas...?

Again, your input is appreciated!!!

I would try two stacked 4248s. I don't thinks a single 4228 will be an improvement over the 4248 you have now. With the stacked setup, I'd try a hybrid combiner from CM instead of a turned-around splitter to make sure you're getting the maximum benefit. Check out the thread on stack antennas/multipath going on right now for more info.

-- Gary

'normally' being on 2 different frequencies you should not see fundamental frequency overload effect of a strong ducting activity. I am not sure if it is a propagation thing or a problem with your receiver front end being too open that is causing your problem. Are both chan. digital ?? (it looks like 15 (KPBS) is analog and 19 (KSWB) is digital).. this could be having an effect as well...


Originally posted by robhair
Hey r. ,
Well, very interesting. I also get an "override" from channel 19.1 (San Diego) when on 15.1. I switch to 15.1 and the WB 19.1 takes over. Do you thing ducting is causing this also?
Robert

Originally posted by remrich
I am not sure if it is a propagation thing or a problem with your receiver front end being too open that is causing your problem. Are both chan. digital ?? (it looks like 15 (KPBS) is analog and 19 (KSWB) is digital).. this could be having an effect as well... [/B]

r.,

All the stations I receive are digital. 15.1 & 15.2 are really 30 in San Diego. I'm using my HD receiver in an integrated Mits65869 rptv. What do you mean by my receivers front end being too open?

Robert

Hi Guys,

Changing things up a bit... for those who pick up San Diego channels, is anyone still getting Fox? Antenna placement is still on the correct azimuth, all other channels look GREAT. Fox just disappeared, I think last Thurs. night. Just curious. Didn't push any button or change any settings, just a black screen on that particular channel. I know, it's not "HD" stuff, but the digital channel looks sooooooo much better than what I get from Dish. All in all, everything else is going good.... I can't believe how much new stuff I'm watching now, just 'cause it's Hi-Def. Yeah Baby!

Hey GF!
No problems here in getting FOX San Diego, you may have to play a bit more with the azimuth in SMALL increments? Did you also try to rescan the channels?
["I can't believe how much new stuff I'm watching now, just 'cause it's Hi-Def. Yeah Baby!"], I said the same thing Monday night (during a CBS HD promo of "Your watching HD on CBS" showing all the HD programming on CDS in HD and with a tear in my eye) and she said I was crazy, glad to know I am not alone! ( it was awesome..got a tissue?)

~Tom

Tom,

Nope, haven't tried a re-scan yet. That would be too easy....... ( DOH, I didn't even think of that ). I double checked all the connections, antenna hardware and angle. Couldn't find anything off or loose. I was only getting FOX in the 55% range before, so maybe it is off. Oh well, something new to play with. At least I know it's me and not Fox. Now it can be fixed. Thanks Tom!!!

Alan

FYI:

KOCE DTV is now broadcasting: Ch 48-1 (50-1 PSIP).

Also, KLCS: Ch 41-1 (58-1 PSIP).

Let us know how well you are receiving these.

Crmyo,

I'm not familiar with those two channels. Are those San Diego stations? If so, do you know thier transmitter loactions?

Alan

They are LA stations broadcasting from Mt. Wilson

Cymro,

I'm lookin in the other direction. Mt Wilson is a no-go for me, due to some blockage from a large hill/mountain/whatever in the way. Thanks for the gouge though!

FYI: They are both PBS stations; they started up on May 1.

Pity you can't get the LA Mt. Wilson stations.

XETV-DT channel 23 (Fox) is actually broadcasting from Mt. San Antonio in TJ,Mexico - so its farther away than the San Diego stations. They don't even carry the Fox 16:9 480p digital network feed - only do a poor 4:3 upconvert of the Fox analog signal. You should try to receive the LA Fox digital channel - they do 16:9 480p at least.

Thanks ThumperBoy,

I realize what XETV was/is broadcasting. The digital signal OTA was/is much better that what I get through Dish, even though it's not true "HD". The broadcast tower is on the same azimuth as the S.D. ABC, CBS, etc towers for me, just an extra amount of distance. When I first set up the system I was getting about 55% signal strength, and then the whole channel just dropped out. Hence, my original question. LA is a no-go.... I wish I could though!

Thanks ThumperBoy,

I realize what XETV was/is broadcasting. The digital signal OTA was/is much better that what I get through Dish, even though it's not true "HD". The broadcast tower is on the same azimuth as the S.D. ABC, CBS, etc towers for me, just an extra amount of distance. When I first set up the system I was getting about 55% signal strength, and then the whole channel just dropped out. Hence, my original question. LA is a no-go.... I wish I could though!

Oops... Double post. SORRY!

Yea, I wish I could get LA stations too, but my local will not allow it. I am just happy I get all the main stuff from San Diego; ABC,NBC,CBS,FOX,WB,2-PBS (DT &HD)..not to bad!

~Tom