Champaign, IL - HDTV [Text View] - Page 11

sebenste

11-10-06, 01:56 PM

Update:

17.1 was fluctuating between <40% and 70% last night. It'd jump directly between those two values. About haf the time, I was getting no picture due to the inadequate signal strength.

The installer felt that the amplified omnidirectional was the way to go for my situation (LOTS of trees, east Urbana). And I'm getting 98% on Fox 27.1 and 92% on ABC 15.1, and 72% on WILL 12.1. However, I'm wondering since I'm getting strong siganls from 27.1 and 15.1, and in the 70% range for 12.1, would a directional pointed at 17.1 still pull in watchable signals from the other three?

According to antennaweb.org, I really should be using a "medium directional" in my scenario to get everything but channel 3 (I guess due to their current low power)

In your opnion, of course! :)
Hi Mark,

OK, coming from a semi-professional installer who has had great success in the
Chicago area with every install, meeting or exceeding customer expectations each time...

Omnidirectional antennas only work well reasonably close to the transmitter, as the antenna gain, or ability to get signal, is limited. The more directional an antenna is, the higher the gain. So, the larger it is, the higher the gain.

Because of the way the stations are spread out in the market, it is very tough to get all analogs and digitals in with one antenna, unless you are at the edge of each market, which you happen to be, but it still isn't a cakewalk.

My recommendation is this if I were doing an install in Springfield. A large, very directional antenna. Why? Because it would do several things. You can point it
at Champaign and Decatur and get those stations (the Champaign ones are difficult to get without a large antenna, but yes, WCIA is at very low power right now, soon to be boosted next month), and you might avoid massive overload with stations right outside your window.

Having said that, I'd recommend a Winegard 8200p with a rotor. Yes, I know it's big, one size smaller may do the trick on the Winegard line. Winegards usually last 20 years or more. Yes, rotors are a pain sometimes, BUT you would also likely get WMBD, CBS Peoria, in case WCIA wouldn't come in for now, or as a backup.
You would get St. Louis stations from time to time, especially at night, if you have a rotor. The VHF part of the antenna would pick up WILL-DT, and WCIA when it heads back to VHF in 2009.

I know I'll get yelled at by some for such a large antenna. But as I mentioned recently on the Chicago board: people who don't buy antennas two sizes larger than recommended wind up with problems during bad weather, temperature inversions, or when the station kicks to low power for maintenance or whatnot.
And, rotors allow flexibility in weird weather or station outages so you can keep recording and watching your shows when everyone else is dead in the water. You are currently two sizes *too small* for what you need, IMO, which easily explains your poor reception.

For the record, I am 60 miles west of Chicago, can get all of their stations except one (which no one can get reliably past 40 miles), from two markets, all very reliable except in the most severe atmospheric conditions, such as "skip". I instlled a system in Champaign and this person gets every station from Springfield, Champaign and Decatur. He also locks WMBD from Peoria at night from time to time.

dishrich

11-10-06, 11:26 PM

My recommendation is this if I were doing an install in Springfield.

You were aware that mark is in East Urbana... ;)

(LOTS of trees, east Urbana)

A large, very directional antenna. Why? Because it would do several things. You can point it at Champaign and Decatur and get those stations (the Champaign ones are difficult to get without a large antenna, but yes, WCIA is at very low power right now, soon to be boosted next month)

Why would you be worrying about getting WCIA over here in Springfield, when it's carried on a subchannel on WCFN, which IS located here in Springfield. (I assume when you were talking about WCIA's low power, you were talking their digital signal) Actually, this is how ALL the cable companies in the Springfield area get WCIA today - they simply pick up the subchannel on WCFN-DT & downconvert back to analog 3.

And, as far as trying to pick up WCIA-3 analog clearly in Springfield - FORGET about it! Even with the antenna configuration you described, it is all by impossible to get WCIA-3 clearly, not at least without lots of electrical sparking. That's why WCIA originally put up the WCFN translator, before they switched it over to a separate UPN (now MyTV) affiliate back in 2004. Since the ONLY people that would be affected by this were folks that only watched off-air programming, they felt it was more important to get UPN here in the market.

WCIA when it heads back to VHF in 2009.

Again, it doesn't matter for us over here in Springfield, as WCFN will stay in the UHF band just like today.

FYI - I've been doing various antenna's down here for over 20 years... ;)

blackjackmark

11-11-06, 12:26 AM

Hi Mark,

OK, coming from a semi-professional installer who has had great success in the
Chicago area with every install, meeting or exceeding customer expectations each time...

Omnidirectional antennas only work well reasonably close to the transmitter, as the antenna gain, or ability to get signal, is limited. The more directional an antenna is, the higher the gain. So, the larger it is, the higher the gain.

Because of the way the stations are spread out in the market, it is very tough to get all analogs and digitals in with one antenna, unless you are at the edge of each market, which you happen to be, but it still isn't a cakewalk.

My recommendation is this if I were doing an install in Springfield. A large, very directional antenna. Why? Because it would do several things. You can point it
at Champaign and Decatur and get those stations (the Champaign ones are difficult to get without a large antenna, but yes, WCIA is at very low power right now, soon to be boosted next month), and you might avoid massive overload with stations right outside your window.

Having said that, I'd recommend a Winegard 8200p with a rotor. Yes, I know it's big, one size smaller may do the trick on the Winegard line. Winegards usually last 20 years or more. Yes, rotors are a pain sometimes, BUT you would also likely get WMBD, CBS Peoria, in case WCIA wouldn't come in for now, or as a backup.
You would get St. Louis stations from time to time, especially at night, if you have a rotor. The VHF part of the antenna would pick up WILL-DT, and WCIA when it heads back to VHF in 2009.

I know I'll get yelled at by some for such a large antenna. But as I mentioned recently on the Chicago board: people who don't buy antennas two sizes larger than recommended wind up with problems during bad weather, temperature inversions, or when the station kicks to low power for maintenance or whatnot.
And, rotors allow flexibility in weird weather or station outages so you can keep recording and watching your shows when everyone else is dead in the water. You are currently two sizes *too small* for what you need, IMO, which easily explains your poor reception.

For the record, I am 60 miles west of Chicago, can get all of their stations except one (which no one can get reliably past 40 miles), from two markets, all very reliable except in the most severe atmospheric conditions, such as "skip". I instlled a system in Champaign and this person gets every station from Springfield, Champaign and Decatur. He also locks WMBD from Peoria at night from time to time.

THanks for all the effort...but yeah, I'm in Urbana. Thoughts on that? According to antennaweb, I'm in the center of the action, and thus the dilemma with a directional. Don't wan to deal with a rotor, thoguth that might get me great reception, I do most of my TV watching through recorded DVR programs, so don't want to have to adjust the point each day (or even several times a day, depending on what I'm recording).

IN your experience, if I'm getting such a strong signal from the stations located northeast of me, and the ones I'm lacking on are to the west and northwest...if I had a directional pointed west, what's the likelihood of it still picking up the channels behind it?

sebenste

11-11-06, 03:12 AM

THanks for all the effort...but yeah, I'm in Urbana. Thoughts on that? According to antennaweb, I'm in the center of the action, and thus the dilemma with a directional. Don't wan to deal with a rotor, thoguth that might get me great reception, I do most of my TV watching through recorded DVR programs, so don't want to have to adjust the point each day (or even several times a day, depending on what I'm recording).

IN your experience, if I'm getting such a strong signal from the stations located northeast of me, and the ones I'm lacking on are to the west and northwest...if I had a directional pointed west, what's the likelihood of it still picking up the channels behind it?
Hi Mark,

The Champaign-Springfield-Urbana market is one of the weird ones in the U.S.
where the market is spread out. I thought you were in Springfield, but Urbana is definitely in the middle of things. Well, here's my $.02. 4 miles northwest of Champaign, the friend who has a 4228 up doesn't get Fox from Champaign (actually, northeast of Champaign) constantly, but does get WICD off the back of the antenna, and then gets FOX from Springfield! WILL-DT, west of Champaign, should be pounding your antenna with signal, and my Champaign guy gets 100% signal on his meter---a full 100%, on his Dish Network tuner almost in any direction he points the thing, and that using the 4228 (granted, it does pick up well on channels 7-13). A rotor would help you, though, in bad weather---and you can get WYZZ Peoria/Bloomington with that antenna rather easily, which sometimes shows different football games.

He, however, has a "sweet spot" where he gets everything. However, that certainly should not be expected. So what to do...

If you are absolutely dead fast against a rotor, then I would try the ChannelMaster 4221, the exact half-sized brother of the 4228. You lose 3dB of signal gain (or 50%), but it still gets 9 dB gain off the antenna, and you get double the beamwidth (that is to say, stations will come in even if not directly pointed at them). Then, slap a preamplifier on it---

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/AP8700.htm

The Winegard does a nice job for close stations and those within 60 miles
without overloading. Use RG-6 quad shielded cable from Home Depot. Lowe's I think has it too. This reduces interference and spurious strong signals from leaking in. You will want that when WCIA goes 1 million watts, hopefully next month.

Having said this, with this setup, WILL, WAND, WICD should boom in.
The Springfield ones will be tough catches. WCCU, forget it (unless you get lucky).
With this setup, FOX Springfield will be difficult without the 4228, unless you get that antenna above your roof. WCIA should also come in.

So, no guarantees...but if I had someone in Urbana come to me and say "absolutely no rotor, and this is what I want"...this is what I would tell him.
The antennas I recommended will do fair on channel 3 and good on channels 10 and 13, which will all be in use after 2009 in Champaign using the 4221, and even better on the 4228.

A combo VHF/UHF antenna wouldn't help you any more given your location, IMO. If anyone else thinks otherwise or has a better idea, though, I'm all ears! But I do hope this helps and think it will work the best. The 4221 and 4228 are available at Solidsignal.com, Warrenelectronics.com, or Starkelectronic.com. The latter two I have bought from and they have done well; the first has been recommended by many AVS'ers, but I have no experience with them yet.

mkjnovak

11-11-06, 11:41 AM

...channels 10 and 13, which will all be in use after 2009
News to me, any more info please? Thanks.

Also, now that we're kind of back on antenna discussion, can any Good Vibes customers please respond to my question on the previous page? It kind of got drowned in all the satellite discussion.

Thanks,
Mike

sebenste

11-11-06, 01:08 PM

You were aware that mark is in East Urbana... ;)

Why would you be worrying about getting WCIA over here in Springfield, when it's carried on a subchannel on WCFN, which IS located here in Springfield. (I assume when you were talking about WCIA's low power, you were talking their digital signal) Actually, this is how ALL the cable companies in the Springfield area get WCIA today - they simply pick up the subchannel on WCFN-DT & downconvert back to analog 3.

And, as far as trying to pick up WCIA-3 analog clearly in Springfield - FORGET about it! Even with the antenna configuration you described, it is all by impossible to get WCIA-3 clearly, not at least without lots of electrical sparking. That's why WCIA originally put up the WCFN translator, before they switched it over to a separate UPN (now MyTV) affiliate back in 2004. Since the ONLY people that would be affected by this were folks that only watched off-air programming, they felt it was more important to get UPN here in the market.

Again, it doesn't matter for us over here in Springfield, as WCFN will stay in the UHF band just like today.

FYI - I've been doing various antenna's down here for over 20 years... ;)
Hi Dish,

Yes, but with not much sleep, mea culpa. D'oh!

Yes, I was aware that WCFN carries WCIA, but if he wants WCIA in HD, he'll need to get WCIA, which is what I had assumed he would want. I more than bet you have serious problems with WCIA in Springfield...it's like me and WBBM in Chicago...an utter nightmare to get. The FCC should ban VHF-LO for TV broadcasters, but ah...that's a different thread discussed ad nauseum everywhere else. :D

sebenste

11-11-06, 01:21 PM

News to me, any more info please? Thanks.

Also, now that we're kind of back on antenna discussion, can any Good Vibes customers please respond to my question on the previous page? It kind of got drowned in all the satellite discussion.

Thanks,
Mike

Mike,

WCFN-DT now broadcasts on chhannel 53. That's a no-no after 2009, because channels 52-69 will be changed to wireless Internet, public service, and other stuff. So, they applied for and got 5,008 watts (5.08 kw) on channel 13 after analog shutdown. Boy, I was tired...9 will be in use, although 10 will be in use
around Bloomington and north of Champaign for WWTO-DT Ottawa. Channel 8
will be used for a low power station in Springfield, don't know what will be on it.
Let's see...everything else correct now? Yep. Sorry 'bout that...

dishrich

11-11-06, 01:35 PM

but if he wants WCIA in HD, he'll need to get WCIA, which is what I had assumed he would want.

Well obviously for bjm, that shouldn't be a problem for HIM - NOW let's talk about ME... :eek:

I know that WCIA is ONLY currently working on getting WCIA-DT upgraded & running, but (eventually) they are ALSO supposed to be doing the same thing for WCFN-DT. I don't think us over here in Springfield will be able to pull in WCIA-DT, at least not good enough to get a consistant signal, so we will be at the mercy of WCFN-DT getting upgraded.

Now that you have brought this up, are you trying to tell me that you are under the impression that when WCFN-DT is upgraded as well, that it will NOT be putting out WCIA in HD as well? Do you know this for a fact & where did you hear this from? I ask this because it was my understanding that CBS-HD would be provided on BOTH WCIA & WCFN, but now you have me worried that us folks over here in Springpatch are going to get screwed over by WCIA AGAIN!

This is exactly the reason why I have NO misgivings about getting MY networks out of Chicago (& "other places") - if WCIA is going to screw us over here, then screw them BACK! :mad: ;) Not to mention how WCIA CONSTANTLY pre-empts network programming ad naseum - it's nice to have other options. ;) :D

dishrich

11-11-06, 01:38 PM

Channel 8 will be used for a low power station in Springfield, don't know what will be on it.

It's already used now for an analog translator for WSEC-14 - course, not sure what will happen after the analog shutdown... :confused:

FYI - when I was doing lot's of antenna's with DBS installs, (before they had locals on DBS) my typical antenna install the majority of the time would be a small to medium UHF corner yagi, with a hi-band cut to channel (or a Winegard ch 10-13 high band, since they NO longer make cut to a specific channel anymore) for WILL-12, all with NO rotator. This worked great, except for pulling in WSEC-14, since it's west of Springfield - this was fixed when they put up the ch. 8 translator, since it was east of Springfield just like all the other stations.

This all worked great, until April '04, when WCFN switch over to UPN - then I had several unhappy customers, as we STILL did not have locals yet! :mad: :eek: Some customers got waivers for a distant CBS, while others went back to cable.

Stevenage

11-11-06, 04:22 PM

I live on the north west side of Springfield. I plan on dropping directv for cable hd soon. I am able to get nbc, abc, fox and cw off on antenna mounted on my dish stand and cbs and pbs from an antenna in my attic. All in hd. I also pay for cbs hd from NY.

I want the hddvr insight offers. Is anyone having any luck with insight?

dishrich

11-11-06, 06:24 PM

I want the hddvr insight offers. Is anyone having any luck with insight?

I've had several customers who switched from DBS to cable for various reasons - usually it was because of the TV/internet discount, more HD for clients who bought HD sets, tired of paying $5/month for additional receivers, or when CBS went off on ch 49. Now before someone mentions "what about DSL instead" - there are still MANY parts of Springfield that CANNOT get DSL, period - so if you want broadband, Insight's the only game in town.

I also borrowed one to play with, so that I knew everything it did before I started working with these things for clients.

If you do NOT not already have a DVR from DBS, you will probably be impressed with it. For the most part, it's easy to operate, is quick & seems to have few "software issues". I have had several clients that actually ended up getting 2, for "his & her DVR's", etc. And being able to record & pause live any HD channels is nice as well. The quality of HD reception, IMHO is better than what you get on either DBS. (truthfully, I think even the SD stuff looks better overall than on DBS, but of course it depends if you have any "reception issuers at your house)

But, since I have both E* & D-Tivos, I gotta tell you the one thing that I would have kinda hard time with, is NOT having a 30 sec skip button on the Insight DVR. (there USED to be a secret code that you could enter on the remote to enable it, but Insight sent out a firmware update awhile back that disabled this) When you try to FF or REW through commericals, etc., while the unit has 5 speeds, even the fastest one is kinda slow, at least by DBS DVR's.

Also, while it does have a "series record" feature, it is NOT a Tivo.

What I would suggest you do is, before pulling the plug on DBS, try out the Insight DVR for about a month with your DBS & see what YOU think before you settle on one or the other.

Stevenage

11-11-06, 10:10 PM

Wow! Thank you for the detailed reply.

You say the HD picture with cable is better than DBS? E* says theirs is better. They say they allow more bandwidth for their hd.

My TV has a built-in E*HD tuner. The only input I have is componet. I am afaid that might not deliever as good a picture?

sebenste

11-12-06, 02:01 AM

Dishrich gone wild! :)
Well obviously for bjm, that shouldn't be a problem for HIM - NOW let's talk about ME... :eek:

I know that WCIA is ONLY currently working on getting WCIA-DT upgraded & running, but (eventually) they are ALSO supposed to be doing the same thing for WCFN-DT. I don't think us over here in Springfield will be able to pull in WCIA-DT, at least not good enough to get a consistant signal, so we will be at the mercy of WCFN-DT getting upgraded.

Now that you have brought this up, are you trying to tell me that you are under the impression that when WCFN-DT is upgraded as well, that it will NOT be putting out WCIA in HD as well? Do you know this for a fact & where did you hear this from? I ask this because it was my understanding that CBS-HD would be provided on BOTH WCIA & WCFN, but now you have me worried that us folks over here in Springpatch are going to get screwed over by WCIA AGAIN!

This is exactly the reason why I have NO misgivings about getting MY networks out of Chicago (& "other places") - if WCIA is going to screw us over here, then screw them BACK! :mad: ;) Not to mention how WCIA CONSTANTLY pre-empts network programming ad naseum - it's nice to have other options. ;) :D

Let's think about it. WCFN-DT has 19.3 mb/sec to work with. WCFN-DT 49.1 is allocated specifically for My Network TV, which is known as the primary channel.
Any additional subchannels have to be on -2, -3, etc. These get the lower bitrates. Why? MNTV will use 15 MB of data at 720p, leaving 4 MB left over for a 480i or maybe, MAYBE a 480p 16:9 picture. And let's just say WCFN didn't drop CBS because they thought it was a good idea to keep it!

But it gets even "better". You see, back in July, WCIA/WCFN's parent company wrote a wonderful letter to the FCC which I posted here. It said that the company was hundreds of millions in the red, and was doing upgrades within its limited operational capital budget. They said that they couldn't do all the stations all at once, and in fact, they could only do 3 the rest of the year, namely WMBD Peoria, WQRF Rockford, and WCIA Champaign. Several more would be done next year, and the rest would be done by...2010 or 2011. But...

The FCC has an absolute "drop dead" deadline for everyone to be at full power on January 2. If the FCC sticks to its guns, dozens of Nexstar stations yet to be upgraded would not get protection if stations around them wanted to upgrade and interfere with their signal; and WCFN is scheduled to be upgraded by late *2008*. Read: WCFN and many Nexstar stations could be stuck at low power forever (or certainly not the power levels they would have had if they had gone full power on time), so the rest of the market, desiring MNTV, would be shafted too. Only Springfield, near the transmitter, would see MNTV in HD.

One thing you need to know is this. WCIA will have a killer signal on their new
tower! 1 million watts for digital is a TON of juice. In fact, with 800 kw, people are reporting they can get WMBD-DT from the north side of Springfield, which is in WMBD's service contour; you might want to try to get it for "other options" :) (I think that must be what Stevenage is getting above).
But, in any event, I think WCIA will come in with an adequate outdoor antenna in Springfield. Their channel selection and power will make it a blowtorch, with no VHF interference and UHF penetration. So, I say: don't worry, be happy about CBS...once WCIA kicks their new tower and equipment on, with the latest generation of equipment/encoders, that picture will be sweeeet and seen into Indiana.

No, you will be golden with your close proximity to WCFN, while everyone else gets screwed. And as for 8...hey! I see the FCC has clarified things. 8 will stay on the air, as they have applied for a low-power, 15 kw digital companion translator station will broadcast on channel 36...airing from their current tower in Springfield at 1,000 feet up! That would get their signal out 40 miles from Springfield with a good outdoor antenna! It's just an application right now, but if it gets approved, that ends that problem...

So, in summary, WCIA isn't screwing you, nor WCFN...Nexstar is. They went on a spending rampage for new stations, now they just have enough cash to keep paying their loans and relatively minimal equipment replacements and upgrades.

P.S. Yagis do work well, too...I tend to shy away from them with the great success I have had with the ChannelMaster 4228 8-bay UHF antennas.
For situations requiring light antennas, I'd pick a Winegard yagi. And a rotor for Springfield customers.

Stevenage

11-12-06, 07:59 AM

Dishrich gone wild! :)

One thing you need to know is this. WCIA will have a killer signal on their new
tower! 1 million watts for digital is a TON of juice. In fact, with 800 kw, people are reporting they can get WMBD-DT from the north side of Springfield, which is in WMBD's service contour; you might want to try to get it for "other options" :) (I think that must be what Stevenage is getting above).

P.S. Yagis do work well, too...I tend to shy away from them with the great success I have had with the ChannelMaster 4228 8-bay UHF antennas.
For situations requiring light antennas, I'd pick a Winegard yagi. And a rotor for Springfield customers.

Yes, I am getting WMBD with a small radio shack yagi in my atic. My signal is around 70 at all times. I don't need no stinkin WCIA :p

I don't get WILL though. Does anyone in Springfield?

flyingfan

11-12-06, 09:25 AM

Check this out.
I live just south of Springfield. I get all networks in HD, except of course CBS, with my OTA antenna. I subscribed to Dish with the HD package and add the locals, in SD only but required to add waivered network channel, and apply for my CBS waiver and receive it. Thank you Russ, (very nice and understanding). It is only given to me on 8491 WBBM SD, not 6313 WBBM HD on my 129 degree HD sat. I call Dish to get 6313 authorized and they tell me the FCC won't allow me to get WBBM in HD. I only want a CBS HD channel with as close as possible to WCIA until they go HD or one that is on 1 of the 3 sats I get. Then I will only watch WCIA. Seems like simple logic to me. Does Dish not understand a waiver or is the FCC that screwed up? Has anyone else had a simular experience and how have you dealt with it?

dishrich

11-12-06, 01:09 PM

Let's think about it. WCFN-DT has 19.3 mb/sec to work with. WCFN-DT 49.1 is allocated specifically for My Network TV, which is known as the primary channel.

I DO actually understand all this, but where is it a "rule" or "law" that the "primary" channel HAS to be the HD channel? Why would it NOT be possible that 49.1 would stay SD, while 49.2 (CBS) becomes HD? Are you absolutely SURE that WCIA is specifically planning on offering MYTV in HD?

One thing you need to know is this. WCIA will have a killer signal on their new tower! 1 million watts for digital is a TON of juice.

Well, considering that WAND's analog signal NOW is FIVE mil on ch 17, it really doesn't sound that impressive. AND, even with WAND only 35-40 miles away in Argenta, you still have to have a fairly beefy outside or attic antenna to pull it in clearly. (trying to pull it in with an inside antenna is pretty futile) Also, with WCIA-DT being on ch 48 AND even farther away than Argenta, that's knocks it down some more.

Also, I have read in more than a few trade mags, (& from personal experience) it's a myth that digital signals do NOT have to be as strong as analog signals to be received properly - on the contrary, many cable headend techs out in the boonies are VERY concerned that when the analog shuts off, they WILL be having problems pulling in some of these off-air digital signals & are concerned that nobody has really addressed this.

In fact, with 800 kw, people are reporting they can get WMBD-DT from the north side of Springfield, which is in WMBD's service contour; you might want to try to get it for "other options" :) (I think that must be what Stevenage is getting above).

(Unfortunately, I'm on the SOUTH side of Springfield)
Yea, but most people want LOCAL CBS, NOT out of Peoria. Also, most people (ie NOT techogeeks like us) do NOT want an "antenna headend" on their house to get HD from 80-90 miles away. Hell, it was hard enough to get people to agree to ANY kind of outside antenna back a few years ago.

But, in any event, I think WCIA will come in with an adequate outdoor antenna in Springfield. Their channel selection and power will make it a blowtorch, with no VHF interference and UHF penetration. So, I say: don't worry, be happy about CBS

You "think", but even you are NOT sure - hope you're right, but I still don't have confidence in WCIA, read the next post:

So, in summary, WCIA isn't screwing you, nor WCFN...Nexstar is. They went on a spending rampage for new stations

WCIA, Nexstar - whatever... I DON'T CARE who's fault it is; we are getting screwed either way. If they are gonna be in this business, then you either need to deliver it properly, or let somebody else do it for you. (as in getting distant HD on DBS)

Not that I'm trying to pick a fight with you or argue, but have you ever lived down here in Springpatch? If not, then you really DON'T know what we have gone through over the years with WCIA & how they have ALWAYS screwed over the Springfield market. You only know what you read & are NOT actually "living in OUR real world". It would like myself, who has NEVER done work in YOUR market, coming in & trying to tell YOU what it is in YOUR world... ;) ;)

Even when WCFN was carrying CBS, it usually looked like crap - considering all they were doing was picking up their interfearance-ridden WCIA signal OFF-AIR, 90 miles away & rebroadcasting it, this should not be surprising. Then, when WCIA tried their "microwave relay" experiment from Champaign, thru Decatur to Springfield, it was CONSTANTLY going out over here - & would actually STAY out for even a 1/2 day! Again, thank god for CBS on DBS - it was ONLY after they did the fiber feed about a year ago, is the picture actually good now. Geeze, better WAY late than never I guess. :rolleyes: :eek:

The whole thing with the WCFN switch to UPN basically spoke volumes about what (Nexstar) thinks of the Springfield market - they all but said "F U Spfld if you don't have cable or an 80' tower, too bad, so sad, deal with no CBS". (again, KEEP in mind when this happened, NEITHER DBS provider offered our locals & we did NOT get them until about 2 years later! :eek: ) Many of my customers that live out in the country had no "practical" options, since digital TV's & set-top boxes were SO expensive back then.

And a rotor for Springfield customers.

The reason why I don't do rotors, aside from the fact they are NOT needed for the locals, is because if one person in the house turns it to get something out of Peoria, (or some other place) then it screws up the reception for others in the same house that DO want to watch locals.

dishrich

11-12-06, 01:11 PM

I don't get WILL though. Does anyone in Springfield?

I assume you meant a UHF yagi - you MUST have a VHF antenna to get it, since it's on DT-9 - and most likely putting in the attic ain't gonna cut it. ;) ;)

dishrich

11-12-06, 01:24 PM

It is only given to me on 8491 WBBM SD, not 6313 WBBM HD on my 129 degree HD sat. I call Dish to get 6313 authorized and they tell me the FCC won't allow me to get WBBM in HD.

E* does NOT give ANY of the HD locals on 129 as distants. The ONLY CBS-HD they will give you are either the NY on 61.5 (or the LA on 148). You'll need the wing dish before you can get it, but if you have a waiver from WCIA, you should be able to get it. (or, "move" your account to Chicago & get ALL of them ;) :D )

Technically, the FCC is NOT preventing them from giving you ANY CBS-HD as a distant, but E* has chosen NOT to do this for various reasons...

sebenste

11-12-06, 03:09 PM

Rich,

Good post. I'll elaborate on a few points. I mostly agree with what you say.

I DO actually understand all this, but where is it a "rule" or "law" that the "primary" channel HAS to be the HD channel? Why would it NOT be possible that 49.1 would stay SD, while 49.2 (CBS) becomes HD? Are you absolutely SURE that WCIA is specifically planning on offering MYTV in HD?

There is no law, but it is a standard that is seen on every station. It is possible to alternate, to have an HD feed on a subchannel; but the equipment is expensive and you can't hve two going at the same time. And that is usually primetime. So, either way, the dominant channel gets priority. And as you point out, I forgot to mention that this assumes WCFN will be HD. The way Nexstar has been doing the upgrades, they have been going HD and full power simultaneously, UNLESS the tower is at the station so that they don't have to set up an expensive backhaul system to get it there. Obviously, for WCFN, it WILL take an expensive backhaul.

Well, considering that WAND's analog signal NOW is FIVE mil on ch 17, it really doesn't sound that impressive. AND, even with WAND only 35-40 miles away in Argenta, you still have to have a fairly beefy outside or attic antenna to pull it in clearly. (trying to pull it in with an inside antenna is pretty futile) Also, with WCIA-DT being on ch 48 AND even farther away than Argenta, that's knocks it down some more.

Obviously much of Springfield is low in the Illinois River valley. That hurts. Also,
and you know this...an "adequate" antenna at that range isn't small. While I suspect you are correct, let's let them go to 1 mw...and then let the screaming begin. :)

Also, I have read in more than a few trade mags, (& from personal experience) it's a myth that digital signals do NOT have to be as strong as analog signals to be received properly - on the contrary, many cable headend techs out in the boonies are VERY concerned that when the analog shuts off, they WILL be having problems pulling in some of these off-air digital signals & are concerned that nobody has really addressed this.

Part of the problem is tower height. I disagree with how the FCC calculates ERP with tower height. I was able to lock WCIU-DT from my townhome with an attic antenna, in a modest river valley, 60 miles west of Chicago while they were at 15.1 kw...and THAT with a 5 mw blowtorch analog co-channel 80 miles to my northwest. I think much of what you're seeing in terms of inconsistent reception in the uber-boonies like where I am is from analog co-channel. That goes away when analog shuts down. The interference rules are much stricter for digital than they are from analog. And as you know, get a whisper of analog co-channel...and bye bye digital picture.

(Unfortunately, I'm on the SOUTH side of Springfield)
Yea, but most people want LOCAL CBS, NOT out of Peoria. Also, most people (ie NOT techogeeks like us) do NOT want an "antenna headend" on their house to get HD from 80-90 miles away. Hell, it was hard enough to get people to agree to ANY kind of outside antenna back a few years ago.

Give it a try anyway...you never know. Heck, try St. Louis...you may have a better shot with you on the south side.

A ChannelMaster 4228 on an rotor is not an antenna farm. Also, and this is not a slam aginst you, but against the other stations...they don't seem to focus on your city like they should during newscasts. I would call your city an "underserved market". And in a market as spread out as this one is, sadly, it's not surprising.

You "think", but even you are NOT sure - hope you're right, but I still don't have confidence in WCIA, read the next post:

I am sure you will get it with an adequate outdoor antenna. WAND-DT can get slammed by analogs in other markets, which is also why they aren't at 1 million watts.

WCIA, Nexstar - whatever... I DON'T CARE who's fault it is; we are getting screwed either way. If they are gonna be in this business, then you either need to deliver it properly, or let somebody else do it for you. (as in getting distant HD on DBS)

Not that I'm trying to pick a fight with you or argue, but have you ever lived down here in Springpatch? If not, then you really DON'T know what we have gone through over the years with WCIA & how they have ALWAYS screwed over the Springfield market. You only know what you read & are NOT actually "living in OUR real world". It would like myself, who has NEVER done work in YOUR market, coming in & trying to tell YOU what it is in YOUR world... ;) ;)

I have friends down there and have visited in Champaign often. I see it. I hear the stories. We have the same thing with our CBS affiliate in Chicago...over the years, particularly the last 30, it's been an utter bear to get. And then, when they threw on their digital signal on 3, they jammed every VCR, cable system and video game system within 20 miles of the Hancock, and that made the news. To this day since that time, cable companies in the Chicago area have either nothing on 3 or have a "throw away" channel. And trying to get it? Ha! Go farther than 30 miles and...good luck. The engineers there are frustrated, it's not their fault. And you, you lucky dog, get CBS as a 1 million watter on UHF instead of VHF 3. At least the engineers there had a say in that, unlike Chicago (the decision was made in New York), and you got on a full UHF megablaster.

Even when WCFN was carrying CBS, it usually looked like crap - considering all they were doing was picking up their interfearance-ridden WCIA signal OFF-AIR, 90 miles away & rebroadcasting it, this should not be surprising. Then, when WCIA tried their "microwave relay" experiment from Champaign, thru Decatur to Springfield, it was CONSTANTLY going out over here - & would actually STAY out for even a 1/2 day! Again, thank god for CBS on DBS - it was ONLY after they did the fiber feed about a year ago, is the picture actually good now. Geeze, better WAY late than never I guess. :rolleyes: :eek:

Comcast just last year finally put in fiber to get WBBM-DT reliably, and they nearly got thrown out of my town until they put in fiber to get WBBM analog reliably. On many days, WBBM was simply unwatchable. And even 20 miles from Hancock, the signal to this day stinks. To the north until recently, it was utterly horrid.

The whole thing with the WCFN switch to UPN basically spoke volumes about what (Nexstar) thinks of the Springfield market - they all but said "F U Spfld if you don't have cable or an 80' tower, too bad, so sad, deal with no CBS". (again, KEEP in mind when this happened, NEITHER DBS provider offered our locals & we did NOT get them until about 2 years later! :eek: ) Many of my customers that live out in the country had no "practical" options, since digital TV's & set-top boxes were SO expensive back then.

Obviously, STB's still wouldn't have helped even if you had one because CBS-DT in Peoria and Champaign were at low power. I agree, that sucks. So why did they do the network flip? Most were on cable, and all the people who have the money to buy the stuff advertisers show on there had cable. I don't recall hearing about a big stink when it happened. A few complained loudly...but that's about it. The relatively few who watched OTA didn't have money to spend on stuff WCIA advertised, so they dumped it for a UPN affiliate. Please note: I am NOT saying I agree with this line of thinking, but that's how the business decision had to come down. There's no other plausible explanation.

That said, and in summary, your market for getting CBS is as bad and worse than my market...and I have seen yours first hand frequently. Not continuously, but long enough to know what you're going through. I can appreciate that, and it royally stinks, no question. And as an antenna installer, you have had to deal with this crud for 20 years. My hats off to you...that is no fun.

The reason why I don't do rotors, aside from the fact they are NOT needed for the locals, is because if one person in the house turns it to get something out of Peoria, (or some other place) then it screws up the reception for others in the same house that DO want to watch locals.
[/QUOTE]
As long as you can get the locals in without a rotor, that's fine (I would assume the east side would need one due to ghosts from picking up the stations near I-55). I am assuming a 1st-4th generation tuner which can't handle stations well if they are not pointed at them. For 5th generation, no rotor should be needed. But for out-of-town stations, or picking up WSEC...I'd want a rotor. I am biased, being a single guy, to do what I want to do with my rotor in my house. No one objects if I turn it. :)

Great discussion. May you and Springfield get WCIA full tilt when they throw the switch. I'm rooting for you!

dishrich

11-12-06, 06:34 PM

UNLESS the tower is at the station so that they don't have to set up an expensive backhaul system to get it there. Obviously, for WCFN, it WILL take an expensive backhaul.

They ALREADY have it, in the FIBER feed I already told you about. Not only that, it's a BI-DIRECTIONAL feed. I assume you realize that the studios for WCFN are in Champaign as well, so how do you think it gets over to Springfield?
I don't think you can get much better than a direct fiber feed. ;)

Give it a try anyway...you never know. Heck, try St. Louis...you may have a better shot with you on the south side.

WRONG - been there, done that at my parents house on the south side a few years ago. This was with a 60' tower, the largest SEPARATE VHF & UHF antennas available, fed into a high-gain Winegard pre-amp. At best, you get STL half-a$$ ONLY in the best of conditions. It sure as hell ain't gonna be better on digital 100+ miles away, being in our valley.

A ChannelMaster 4228 on an rotor is not an antenna farm.

Obviously, YOUR clients aren't quite as fussy about the appearance of their house as mine seem to be, particularly depending on the neighborhood. If it was me, that would be a TINY antenna for me. :D

Also, and this is not a slam aginst you, but against the other stations...they don't seem to focus on your city like they should during newscasts. I would call your city an "underserved market". And in a market as spread out as this one is, sadly, it's not surprising.

RIGHT on all counts - again, that's why I have NO guilt whatsoever about getting ALL the locals out of Chicago or St.Louis, OR the NY/LA/Denver big 4, all courtesy of DBS. ;) :D

I have friends down there and have visited in Champaign often. I see it. I hear the stories.

But you don't LIVE & breath down here in Springpatch on a long-term basis. The Champaign area is also NOT the same as us, thank you. If you have not done any full installs here, in the variety of places I've installed, then I'm sorry, but I don't think you really judge the whole picture here first-hand - just like I couldn't where YOU live. ;)

We have the same thing with our CBS affiliate in Chicago...over the years, particularly the last 30, it's been an utter bear to get.

Yes, I've read all about it in the trades - you're right, it IS worse, or just as bad in a different way. :eek:

Obviously, STB's still wouldn't have helped even if you had one because CBS-DT in Peoria and Champaign were at low power.

Sorry, but you're 100% WRONG on this one. I don't care about Peoria & I sure DON'T care about the Champaign signal; it is a non-issue over here. Again, you seem to forgetting about WCFN-DT 53, which has carried CBS on 53-2 since April '04. THAT was the whole point of WCFN analog turning into UPN. Right before this happened, WCIA-DT AND WCFN-DT were fired up, abeit on low-power. The whole premise is, that Springfield would STILL get a CBS signal, BUT the only 3 ways consumers could pull in the signal was:

- From cable. Again, do you understand that MOST, if not all the cable systems in the Springfield pull the WCIA signal from WCFN-DT - NOT directly from WCIA, either digitially OR by analog. We are TOO, TOO, far away even for their headends to pull it in! They all put ATSC receivers in their headends to pick up WCFN 53.2, change it back to composite A/V, THEN they remod it back on analog ch 3. There is NO other (practical) way for them to get WCIA clearly & consistantly.

- From WCFN. Actually, I DO have a couple clients that DO have digital set-tops. Again, they have had these since '04 & they did NOT have HD sets - WHY in the world do you think they would have an HD set-top otherwise? :confused: They did this, because they had NO other way to get WCIA (which they both wanted to get the U of I games) The set-tops worked just fine, thank you - one of which was only hooked up to a 4-bay bowtie on the side of their tower. And, they were 20 miles WEST of Spfld. If all we were talking about is SD, it's NOT really an issue currently pulling CBS off WCFN-DT

Now, since you seem pretty intelligent - WHICH do you think is easier to pick up; an LP DT signal from Champaign, or an LP DT signal from Springfield? I think you can figure this one out. ;) Using an HD set-top has ALWAYS been an option over here since day 1 - IF you didn't mind laying out $500!

-Oh the third way - with a HUGE antenna & pull in ch 3 directly. NOT an option here for the majority of people & you STILL won't get it clearly.

Also, you ARE aware that as far as the cable systems in Champaign go, they get WCFN-MYTV via WCIA-DT - they are NOT picking up WCFN 49. Just like us, except the other way around.

I I don't recall hearing about a big stink when it happened. A few complained loudly...but that's about it.

Again, you weren't here - you don't know. It was MUCH more than that, especially when the CBS would go off on the cable for a whole evening, again courtesy of their CBS/UPN switcher-roo. Again, with the half-a$$ microwave feed I just told you about, these problems went on for a few YEARS, until the fiber was fun!
I even had my parents D* switched to get STL locals, just because my mother watched CBS a LOT & got tired of it going out ALL the time.

I'd want a rotor. I am biased, being a single guy, to do what I want to do with my rotor in my house. No one objects if I turn it. :)

Me too, but as I told you, this does NOT help most of my customers. :confused:
There are many things I do at my place I would NEVER do for a typical client.

Great discussion. May you and Springfield get WCIA full tilt when they throw the switch. I'm rooting for you!

Yes it is - thank you. I hope you did not take any of this to be insulting, but again, you're better off talking to people who live this & NOT just what you read or assume - you'll get a MUCH better "picture" of the situation...

sebenste

11-12-06, 08:24 PM

Hi Rich,

They ALREADY have it, in the FIBER feed I already told you about. Not only that, it's a BI-DIRECTIONAL feed. I assume you realize that the studios for WCFN are in Champaign as well, so how do you think it gets over to Springfield?
I don't think you can get much better than a direct fiber feed. ;)

Yes, but let me clarify---is it an HD feed, or an SD bi-directional feed? If HD, then
point taken. As for St. Louis signals...

WRONG - been there, done that at my parents house on the south side a few years ago. This was with a 60' tower, the largest SEPARATE VHF & UHF antennas available, fed into a high-gain Winegard pre-amp. At best, you get STL half-a$$ ONLY in the best of conditions. It sure as hell ain't gonna be better on digital 100+ miles away, being in our valley.

Rats. OK.

Obviously, YOUR clients aren't quite as fussy about the appearance of their house as mine seem to be, particularly depending on the neighborhood. If it was me, that would be a TINY antenna for me.

My last install let me mount a 4228 on the side of a house with vinyl siding.
Oddest install ever, but it worked, and the people were very happy. However,
once I give them a taste of HDTV or DTV hooking up some rabbit ears and my tuner, they quickly give in to the bright side. :D

[QUOTE=dishrich]
RIGHT on all counts - again, that's why I have NO guilt whatsoever about getting ALL the locals out of Chicago or St.Louis, OR the NY/LA/Denver big 4, all courtesy of DBS.

I don't feel the love here...let me check...nope, still no love for WCIA! :D

But you don't LIVE & breath down here in Springpatch on a long-term basis. The Champaign area is also NOT the same as us, thank you. If you have not done any full installs here, in the variety of places I've installed, then I'm sorry, but I don't think you really judge the whole picture here first-hand - just like I couldn't where YOU live. ;)
Granted I don't know everything about the market. But when you know how high the towers are, the location of the towers, how much/little power they are running, and seeing it from the other side of where you are...I can get a decent idea. Of course, that doesn't help you, and as I said before: CBS is cursed in this state. In Rockford, the CBS affil lets a Chicago station stomp all over their signal east and southeast of Rockford. Peoria is now much better, but only since last month when they went full power. Your market, we know, of course---and OK, Quad Cities powered up very late as well. Chicago speaks for itself. Actually on days with tropo, I'm sure WBBM-DT eats in on WCIA analog.

Yes, I've read all about it in the trades - you're right, it IS worse, or just as bad in a different way.

I'd rather have your situation though. I see light at the end of the tunnel for you guys. For us, so far, it's been METRA trains hitting us repeatedly. :(

Sorry, but you're 100% WRONG on this one. I don't care about Peoria & I sure DON'T care about the Champaign signal; it is a non-issue over here. Again, you seem to forgetting about WCFN-DT 53, which has carried CBS on 53-2 since April '04. THAT was the whole point of WCFN analog turning into UPN. Right before this happened, WCIA-DT AND WCFN-DT were fired up, abeit on low-power. The whole premise is, that Springfield would STILL get a CBS signal, BUT the only 3 ways consumers could pull in the signal was:

- From cable. Again, do you understand that MOST, if not all the cable systems in the Springfield pull the WCIA signal from WCFN-DT - NOT directly from WCIA, either digitially OR by analog. We are TOO, TOO, far away even for their headends to pull it in! They all put ATSC receivers in their headends to pick up WCFN 53.2, change it back to composite A/V, THEN they remod it back on analog ch 3. There is NO other (practical) way for them to get WCIA clearly & consistantly.

- From WCFN. Actually, I DO have a couple clients that DO have digital set-tops. Again, they have had these since '04 & they did NOT have HD sets - WHY in the world do you think they would have an HD set-top otherwise? :confused: They did this, because they had NO other way to get WCIA (which they both wanted to get the U of I games) The set-tops worked just fine, thank you - one of which was only hooked up to a 4-bay bowtie on the side of their tower. And, they were 20 miles WEST of Spfld. If all we were talking about is SD, it's NOT really an issue currently pulling CBS off WCFN-DT

Now, since you seem pretty intelligent - WHICH do you think is easier to pick up; an LP DT signal from Champaign, or an LP DT signal from Springfield? I think you can figure this one out. ;) Using an HD set-top has ALWAYS been an option over here since day 1 - IF you didn't mind laying out $500!

-Oh the third way - with a HUGE antenna & pull in ch 3 directly. NOT an option here for the majority of people & you STILL won't get it clearly.

Also, you ARE aware that as far as the cable systems in Champaign go, they get WCFN-MYTV via WCIA-DT - they are NOT picking up WCFN 49. Just like us, except the other way around.

Again, you weren't here - you don't know. It was MUCH more than that, especially when the CBS would go off on the cable for a whole evening, again courtesy of their CBS/UPN switcher-roo. Again, with the half-a$$ microwave feed I just told you about, these problems went on for a few YEARS, until the fiber was fun!
I even had my parents D* switched to get STL locals, just because my mother watched CBS a LOT & got tired of it going out ALL the time.

I understand...and if I were CBS, I'd be mad that the station "gave up" on you in Springfield, didn't go to full power as authorized by the FCC, didn't give you HD,
and on and on.

Me too, but as I told you, this does NOT help most of my customers. :confused:
There are many things I do at my place I would NEVER do for a typical client.
Yes it is - thank you. I hope you did not take any of this to be insulting, but again, you're better off talking to people who live this & NOT just what you read or assume - you'll get a MUCH better "picture" of the situation...
No, I didn't take it to be insulting, and this does give me a better perspective. No question you are angry about it...as I would be...over this entire mess. All I can
say is that in theory, you are correct that WCIA should be a harder station to get because of distance. In fact, if the FCC expected signal strength of WCIA at 1 mw is correct:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1069146.html

You won't get WCIA reliably. The antenna height is roughly 750' above ground level, much lower than WAND. If this does verify, and the worse case scenario is realized, you'd need cable/sat (when it becomes available) to get the HD feed.
I'm thinking 2007 is when they'll add you guys to that.

I'll tell you what---you buy WBBM and move our digital channel to UHF and I'll buy a 1 mw CBS station in Springfield. Start saving those quarters! :D

jmonsour

11-12-06, 09:48 PM

Does anyone know the QAM channel WAND DT is on in Springfield? My TV has a QAM tuner but the only local I get is WICS on 119.3 and the Tube on 119.4.

dishrich

11-12-06, 10:26 PM

Does anyone know the QAM channel WAND DT is on in Springfield? My TV has a QAM tuner but the only local I get is WICS on 119.3 and the Tube on 119.4.

You probably need to let it do a COMPLETE rescan, since when Insight rearranged everything last week, they probably changed the actual QAM assignments of these channels. If you look back a couple pages, others have said they can't get them (encrypted), but I don't believe this is the case, since Insight even says in their brochures the local HD can be received by a digital tuner. (& according to law, they are supposed to be unscrambled.

Unfortunately I don't have a QAM tuner here, but you should be getting all the locals in HD (except for WCIA & WCFN) & WBUI won't be added until 11/15. You should also get WSEC Create, WAND Doppler & The Tube, of course.

FYI - according to their new Springfield channel brochure, WEIU out of Charleston is supposed to be "coming soon" as an SD digital channel - it should also be unscrambled as well.

dishrich

11-13-06, 12:04 AM

Hi seb, I think you're finally getting the dirt on our situation here...

Yes, but let me clarify---is it an HD feed, or an SD bi-directional feed? If HD, then point taken.

For ANYTHING & EVERYTHING - that was the whole point of getting it all the way to Springfield. Nexstar FINALLY figured out their crappy-a$$ microwave hop through Decatur wasn't going to cut it any longer. :rolleyes: They actually can send feeds from their Spfld bureau back to Champaign over it as well. You DO know a fiber feed like this will pretty much give them ALL the capacity they could need, including multiple HD feeds.

My last install let me mount a 4228 on the side of a house with vinyl siding. Oddest install ever, but it worked, and the people were very happy. However, once I give them a taste of HDTV or DTV hooking up some rabbit ears and my tuner, they quickly give in to the bright side.

Unfortunately, most of the people around here consider the look of the house MORE important than getting fantastic HD from all around.
And actually, as I have said before, that's why many people around here that have HD, most have switched back to cable, in lieu of DBS/off-air. Insight here now actually carries EVERY local off-air HD signal & they didn't have to spend hundreds for new DBS boxes - Insight installs them for next to nothing. (& they DON'T need the gear on the roof of the house to get it)

I don't feel the love here...let me check...nope, still no love for WCIA!

Nope, & depending on what/how they do with WCFN, it may get WORSE. :eek: :D

Actually on days with tropo, I'm sure WBBM-DT eats in on WCIA analog.

Well, we (in Springfield anyway) don't EVER see that now, since WCIA is sent to Springfield directly on fiber, then gets sent out over WCFN 53-2. But BEFORE when they picked it up off-air & THEN resent it out over WCFN-DT, you betcha! Actually, we also had problems with WSIL-3 Harrisburg getting into the signal as well.
(Hey, what do ya know - a GOOD thing about about getting CBS through WCFN-DT :D )

I'd rather have your situation though. I see light at the end of the tunnel for you guys.

Hmm, well depends, again on how WCIA deals with their WCFN "stepchild" here in Springfield.

I understand...and if I were CBS, I'd be mad that the station "gave up" on you in Springfield, didn't go to full power as authorized by the FCC, didn't give you HD, and on and on.

Well, again something you probably don't know - CBS actually GAVE their blessing on this one. Why - because Viacom (CBS's parent) also owned UPN & they wanted to get UPN in the Spfld market. WCIA "convinced" them that their "off-air only" viewship of CBS was just a TINY fraction of the whole market. (a very small single-digit percentage) They also convinced them that DBS local carriage was coming soon, so that was a non-issue. (never mind it took almost 2 years before both DBS carriers had our locals :rolleyes: )

So basically, with the satellite & cable viewers being served by BOTH networks, it was worth loosing "those few potential CBS off-air only folks", to the MAJORITY of their viewership getting TWO completely SEPARATE stations, & the accompanying advertising dollars that go along with it. Yes, it was their business decision, but it SUCKED for a few people.

FYI, do you know WE got UPN BEFORE they did in St.Louis, which was over a year later. Amazing the Springfield got something before St.Louis, which is a top 25 market, and a target market that UPN was tailored for. But for me, I had been getting UPN from NY & Boston since day one, so no biggie for me. :D

In fact, if the FCC expected signal strength of WCIA at 1 mw is correct:
You won't get WCIA reliably. The antenna height is roughly 750' above ground level, much lower than WAND.

By george I think you got it now - isn't that what I was saying 3 posts ago? :confused:

If this does verify, and the worse case scenario is realized, you'd need cable/sat (when it becomes available) to get the HD feed.

Well, at least according to Insight in multiple local articles, they already have the retrans agreements in place for WCIA-HD, so as soon as it goes live, it's supposed to be placed on cable right then. Well see about that.

BUT, what I want to see is - HOW will Insight pick it up? You DO realize their headend is located right HERE in Springfield & actually serves Decatur, Lincoln, Mt. Pulaski, Chatham, Pawnee & Divernon. While they do have a TALL tower at the headend site, again is it going to be reliable enough for cable? (Insight WILL be the one fielding complaints first if it doesn't, just like they did when WCIA was having all their problems on the WCFN debacle I told you about.)

As far as sat, DISH will NOT be getting HD to our market ANYTIME soon - they just do NOT have the bandwidth to get down to us. DirecTV - they just keeping saying it's coming, but so is Christmas, but I'm sure eventually it'll happen. :p IMO, I think it's going to be too little, too late to compete with the offerings on cable now.

Now, something else I didn't tell you about that I'm SURE you don't know - when this whole CBS/UPN deal came to be in '04, I actually called over to WCIA & talked to Russ about this thing. My main question was - if you are using WCFN-DT (& WCIA-DT on the Champaign side) to get BOTH CBS & UPN SD out to their entire viewing area, HOW will you be able to broadcast CBS in HD on OUR side, since you are now using the DT signal for TWO SD feeds & you now will NOT have the bandwidth to do HD. (& at least keep a CBS-SD feed for non-widescreen viewers) This is when he told me that WCIA had NO intention whatsoever of going HD, unless the government mandated them to. (& I assume you know there is NO government mandate out there, ONLY that stations all go digital) And, I do remember reading posts about Nexstar NOT doing HD rollouts in their smaller markets, since those same stations would obviously give them a small return on their HD investment.

Now, if Nexstar had stuck to this line & NOT started doing HD here, then we probably would NOT even be having a discussion like this, as ALL of this market would have been screwed over. Well evidently, somebody at Nexstar pulled their head out of their a$$ & figured out that with ALL of the other locals going HD, (as well as all the other HD programming coming out on cable/sat) they were going to be left WAY behind, particularly because HD viewers (read "affluent") would NOT be watching their advertising & turning to all the other HD choices in the market.

Well, just like the SD-DT debacle, I'm NOT entirely sure that WCIA (AGAIN) has given thought (or really cares) of the Springfield side of the market, on how they'll get HD. And again, with cable carrying CBS, I think they feel they have done enough for the cause. :rolleyes:

And another thought - IF Nexstar actually DOES put WCFN-DT in HD, how WILL they get it over to the Champaign side of the house? (hint: I'll GUARANTEE you WCFN-DT will NOT make it over to the Champaign side, except MAYBE with a TALL, HUGE antenna - high power or NOT!)

sebenste

11-13-06, 12:51 AM

Hi Rich,

Hi seb, I think you're finally getting the dirt on our situation here...
Yep, and...I don't like it. Let me guess...you don't either! :D

For ANYTHING & EVERYTHING - that was the whole point of getting it all the way to Springfield. Nexstar FINALLY figured out their crappy-a$$ microwave hop through Decatur wasn't going to cut it any longer. :rolleyes: They actually can send feeds from their Spfld bureau back to Champaign over it as well. You DO know a fiber feed like this will pretty much give them ALL the capacity they could need, including multiple HD feeds.
Well, that's good. At low power, all 300 people will be able to see it! :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, most of the people around here consider the look of the house MORE important than getting fantastic HD from all around.
And actually, as I have said before, that's why many people around here that have HD, most have switched back to cable, in lieu of DBS/off-air. Insight here now actually carries EVERY local off-air HD signal & they didn't have to spend hundreds for new DBS boxes - Insight installs them for next to nothing. (& they DON'T need the gear on the roof of the house to get it)

Sigh. They shouldn't need to do that, of course...

Well, again something you probably don't know - CBS actually GAVE their blessing on this one. Why - because Viacom (CBS's parent) also owned UPN & they wanted to get UPN in the Spfld market. WCIA "convinced" them that their "off-air only" viewship of CBS was just a TINY fraction of the whole market. (a very small single-digit percentage) They also convinced them that DBS local carriage was coming soon, so that was a non-issue. (never mind it took almost 2 years before both DBS carriers had our locals :rolleyes: )

Lovely. I wonder how they came up with that percentage, or the DBS plans, or the cost savings/revenue enhancement.

So basically, with the satellite & cable viewers being served by BOTH networks, it was worth loosing "those few potential CBS off-air only folks", to the MAJORITY of their viewership getting TWO completely SEPARATE stations, & the accompanying advertising dollars that go along with it. Yes, it was their business decision, but it SUCKED for a few people.
I hear you...

FYI, do you know WE got UPN BEFORE they did in St.Louis, which was over a year later. Amazing the Springfield got something before St.Louis, which is a top 25 market, and a target market that UPN was tailored for. But for me, I had been getting UPN from NY & Boston since day one, so no biggie for me.

Strictly my opinion and not based on fact, but at least for me, they only had a few viable shows that might have been worth tuning into (the rest of the country and the fact that WB/UPN merged (oops, I mean a new network was created :D ) supports that.

By george I think you got it now! :cool:

Does this mean you didn't send either station Christmas cards? :D

Well, at least according to Insight in multiple local articles, they already have the retrans agreements in place for WCIA-HD, so as soon as it goes live, it's supposed to be placed on cable right then. Well see about that.

Well, it's supposed to be live December 1 in Chambana. We shall see.

BUT, what I want to see is - HOW will Insight pick it up? You DO realize their headend is located right HERE in Springfield & actually serves Decatur, Lincoln, Mt. Pulaski, Chatham, Pawnee & Divernon. While they do have a TALL tower at the headend site, again is it going to be reliable enough for cable? (Insight WILL be the one fielding complaints first if it doesn't, just like they did when WCIA was having all their problems on the WCFN debacle I told you about.)

Didn't realize it, but it makes perfect sense. I think for cable it will, for two reasons:

1. Tall tower to receive the station from
2. UHF signal prone to very little interference with very little if any co-channel issues

But I thought Insight was fibering that in, or could, from Champaign...?

As far as sat, DISH will NOT be getting HD to our market ANYTIME soon - they just do NOT have the bandwidth to get down to us. DirecTV - they just keeping saying it's coming, but so is Christmas, but I'm sure eventually it'll happen. IMO, I think it's going to be too little, too late to compete with the offerings on cable now.

LOL! Don't write satellite off. Cable got arrogant, then satellite picked up the football. Now satellite isn't keeping pace, but may if they start to lose subs like crazy.

Now, something else I didn't tell you about that I'm SURE you don't know - when this whole CBS/UPN deal came to be in '04, I actually called over to WCIA & talked to Russ about this thing. My main question was - if you are using WCFN-DT (& WCIA-DT on the Champaign side) to get BOTH CBS & UPN SD out to their entire viewing area, HOW will you be able to broadcast CBS in HD on OUR side, since you are now using the DT signal for TWO SD feeds & you now will NOT have the bandwidth to do HD. (& at least keep a CBS-SD feed for non-widescreen viewers) This is when he told me that WCIA had NO intention whatsoever of going HD, unless the government mandated them to. (& I assume you know there is NO government mandate out there, ONLY that stations all go digital) And, I do remember reading posts about Nexstar NOT doing HD rollouts in their smaller markets, since those same stations would obviously give them a small return on their HD investment.
Yep, I know about the no-government HD mandate, and believe it or not,
I had heard from someone at WCIA that they weren't going to go HD, until Nexstar starting getting their butts kicked by the other stations and didn't want to get left behind. On stations co-located with transmitter sites, they go HD long before they go full power.

Now, if Nexstar had stuck to this line & NOT started doing HD here, then we probably would NOT even be having a discussion like this, as ALL of this market would have been screwed over. Well evidently, somebody at Nexstar pulled their head out of their a$$ & figured out that with ALL of the other locals going HD, (as well as all the other HD programming coming out on cable/sat) they were going to be left WAY behind, particularly because HD viewers (read "affluent") would NOT be watching their advertising & turning to all the other HD choices in the market.
Yep, that is what I had heard too. I am interested in seeing if WCFN ever gets the chance to go to full power...and stay there. And BTW, I am NOT blaming Russ for this---this goes to corporate level. He can only do what he is given, which is to say not much. Unfortunately, he's been given a bad situation...and while I do not know him or have met him personally, or know how good/bad of a manager he is, you can't expect him to keep squeezing the turnip and get blood more than every once in a while. I know, people will say I am nuts on this one, but I squarely blame corporate for all of this.

Well, just like the SD-DT debacle, I'm NOT entirely sure that WCIA (AGAIN) has given thought (or really cares) of the Springfield side of the market, on how they'll get HD. And again, with cable carrying CBS, I think they feel they have done enough for the cause. :rolleyes:
I think they have been given pennies when dollars are required to do it right.

And another thought - IF Nexstar actually DOES put WCFN-DT in HD, how WILL they get it over to the Champaign side of the house? (hint: I'll GUARANTEE you WCFN-DT will NOT make it over to the Champaign side, except MAYBE with a TALL, HUGE antenna - high power or NOT!)
I think you know the answer to THAT question...it's the same with WCIA making it to Springfield. It should happen---a friend with a 30' tower just northwest of Champaign locks the FOX affiliate there just fine with a CM 4228 antenna---but as you said, very, very few in Springfield will do that.

Anyway, two thoughts:

1) Will anyone buy antenna systems from either of us, now that they know all the dirty laundry from the market? :D

2) Will WCIA and WCFN cover the entire market?

Tune in next month for the next installment and exciting episode of "WCIA goes full power!" :D (you KNOW this board will go nuts when that happens. Hopefully for the good!)

thumperxr69

11-13-06, 02:04 AM

Boy I wish Nexstar had as much enthusiasm as Dishrich and Sebenste do. :D

I love this discussion guys. Keep it up.

T

jdcolombo

11-13-06, 08:43 PM

1) Will anyone buy antenna systems from either of us, now that they know all the dirty laundry from the market? :D

2) Will WCIA and WCFN cover the entire market?

Tune in next month for the next installment and exciting episode of "WCIA goes full power!" :D (you KNOW this board will go nuts when that happens. Hopefully for the good!)

Or . . .

You can do the following:
1. Install new 5-LNB DirecTV dish, with MPEG4 capability.
2. Get new DirecTV H20 or HR20 receiver with MPEG4 capability.
3. Find friend in Chicago.
4. Call DirecTV and tell them you've moved to Chicago and want Chicago local service, giving them friend's address.
5. Get Chicago locals in HD via DirecTV MPEG4 (2, 5, 7 and 32; No WGN or UPN yet, but I hear it's coming).

The DirecTV MPEG4 spot beam for Chicago reaches nicely to Champaign (although I don't know about Springfield - but I'll bet the St. Louis beam reaches there, so find a friend in St. Louis). Yes, I know this is "cheating"; yes, it is a technical violation of your service agreement with DirecTV. And no one who isn't technically capable of troubleshooting their own equipment should try this. But until the local market gets sorted out, I intend to say my 3 Hail Mary's as weekly penance and watch CBS in HD.

John C.

rrrick8

11-13-06, 09:59 PM

Or . . .

You can do the following:
1. Install new 5-LNB DirecTV dish, with MPEG4 capability.
2. Get new DirecTV H20 or HR20 receiver with MPEG4 capability.
3. Find friend in Chicago.
4. Call DirecTV and tell them you've moved to Chicago and want Chicago local service, giving them friend's address.
5. Get Chicago locals in HD via DirecTV MPEG4 (2, 5, 7 and 32; No WGN or UPN yet, but I hear it's coming).

The DirecTV MPEG4 spot beam for Chicago reaches nicely to Champaign (although I don't know about Springfield - but I'll bet the St. Louis beam reaches there, so find a friend in St. Louis). Yes, I know this is "cheating"; yes, it is a technical violation of your service agreement with DirecTV. And no one who isn't technically capable of troubleshooting their own equipment should try this. But until the local market gets sorted out, I intend to say my 3 Hail Mary's as weekly penance and watch CBS in HD.

John C.

Preachin' to the choir John. :cool:

Don't give away all our secrets though. ;)

dishrich

11-13-06, 09:59 PM

The DirecTV MPEG4 spot beam for Chicago reaches nicely to Champaign (although I don't know about Springfield - but I'll bet the St. Louis beam reaches there, so find a friend in St. Louis).

Well this DOES give me hope, as I would like to do the SAME thing, (since obviously I already get the SD locals) but I was quite concerned about it getting down to Springpatch as well. Can you tell me what kind of signal readings you are getting on the Chicago MPEG4 x-ponder - at least it would give me some sort of idea. Right now, I'm getting all 4 NY HD nets, as D* offered these about a year ago in all the O&O markets, but they ARE going to be cutting those off eventually, since they now have the MPEG4 HD DVR's. :(
FWIW, the SD Chicago x-ponder is kind of weak by the time it gets down here, (only about 55-65, which was causing pixelation here & there) so I added a 3' dish f/101 & it kicked it up quite nicely, to where I don't get ANY, at least unless it's raining fairly good.

As far as St.Louis - while I DO want outer market HD, I really do NOT want another fricken Sinclair ABC affiliate (KDNL) to "censor" their network programming. (we ALREADY get that with WICS :eek: :rolleyes: )At least with the Chicago O&O nets, they pretty much run ALL network prog as it was intended.

rrrick8

11-13-06, 10:04 PM

Well this DOES give me hope, as I would like to do the SAME thing, (since obviously I already get the SD locals) but I was quite concerned about it getting down to Springpatch as well. Can you tell me what kind of signal readings you are getting on the Chicago MPEG4 x-ponder - at least it would give me some sort of idea.
FWIW, the SD Chicago x-ponder is kind of weak by the time it gets down here, (only about 55-65, which was causing pixelation here & there) so I added a 3' dish f/101 & it kicked it up quite nicely, to where I don't get ANY, at least unless it's raining fairly good.

As far as St.Louis - while I DO want outer market HD, I really do NOT want another fricken Sinclair ABC affiliate (KDNL) to "censor" their network programming. (we ALREADY get that with WICS :eek: :rolleyes: )At least with the Chicago O&O nets, they pretty much run ALL network prog as it was intended.

I get low 90's on the 103 bird here in Danville.

dishrich

11-13-06, 10:05 PM

Preachin' to the choir John. :cool:

Don't give away all our secrets though. ;)

Don't worry, there's ONLY 4 other boards that did that ages ago... :D

jdcolombo

11-13-06, 10:19 PM

Can you tell me what kind of signal readings you are getting on the Chicago MPEG4 x-ponder - at least it would give me some sort of idea. Right now, I'm getting all 4 NY HD nets, as D* offered these about a year ago in all the O&O markets, but they ARE going to be cutting those off eventually, since they now have the MPEG4 HD DVR's.

I get low 80's as the signal strength on my H20 on the Chicago MPEG4 spotbeam. Not quite as good as RRick, but I don't know if we have the same receiver, and even within receiver types there are variations on the signal strength meters. Unfortunately, no one seems to have an accurate MPEG4 spot beam map, though there is speculation that the beams are roughly the same as the SD spotbeams - so if you can get that, I'm betting you can get the MPEG4 signal, as well. The new dish is a bit larger than the 3-lnb Phase III dish, and the signal strengths seem better across the board. Unfortunately, probably the only way to tell is to find someone with the new 5-lnb dish and an H20 receiver, and then take a look at the 103 sat transponders (I think Chicago is on Transponder 8, but I can't remember off the top of my head, and I'm not in front of my receiver to check) using the receiver's satellite strength meter in the setup menu.

I've got an HR20 (MPEG4 DVR) on order, but they are in short supply right now (and the software is buggy, anyway). Right now I'm praying that the MPEG2 HD DNS signals (channels 80-88) don't go away soon, because I use them to record on my HR10-250 (I still don't completely trust WICD/WAND, although they seem to pretty much have their HD act together lately). I do record FOX via channel 27 OTA, since it seems to be very reliable.

I assume that DirecTV will put the Champaign/Springfield market up on MPEG 4 once they have their new sats in place next year, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was late 2007 or early 2008 before it happens. And even then, I'll probably keep Chicago, since the Cubs/Bears/Bulls coverage on local news is (obviously) much better than what we get locally. Another big plus for me is that you get Comcast Sportsnet Chicago in HD, too, which means Cubs/Bulls/White Sox home games are all in HD on channel 640.

John C.

blackjackmark

11-13-06, 10:31 PM

Or . . .

You can do the following:

3. Find friend in Chicago.
4. Call DirecTV and tell them you've moved to Chicago and want Chicago local service, giving them friend's address.

John C.

Fnnny you should suggest that, as I was considering the same thing with Chicago and Dish. I do have a friend up there, and was thinking of "transferring" my service to his house.

I think the Chicago locals are NOT on spot on Dish...but on 129, which can be received by the Dish 1000 to get all the "non-OTA network" HD channels...right?

dishrich

11-13-06, 11:33 PM

Fnnny you should suggest that, as I was considering the same thing with Chicago and Dish. I do have a friend up there, and was thinking of "transferring" my service to his house.

I think the Chicago locals are NOT on spot on Dish...but on 129, which can be received by the Dish 1000 to get all the "non-OTA network" HD channels...right?

Correct, but just the main 4 nets - no WGN (CW), MYTV, PBS, etc.

You didn't tell us where you're at, but at long as you're in our area, you should actually have NO trouble getting ALL of the Chicago SD locals on 110 as well, even on the spot beam. (actually, the BIG 4 Chicago nets in SD are ALSO CONUS as well - it's just the rest of the locals that are spot) The E* Chicago spot beam is larger than D*'s Chicago spot.

rrrick8

11-14-06, 08:47 PM

Another big plus for me is that you get Comcast Sportsnet Chicago in HD, too, which means Cubs/Bulls/White Sox home games are all in HD on channel 640.

John C.

You get 640 in HD, John? I don't.
I've got the H-20 (waiting for them to add the OTA upgrade before I order the HR-20) with the 5lnb of course.

I haven't watch that much of CSN though since I'm a Cardinal fan. :D

But when I have, it's always been in SD. Watching the Bulls - Mavs game right now in SD. I know it's being played in Dallas, but I've yet to see anything HD on 640.

jdcolombo

11-14-06, 09:35 PM

You get 640 in HD, John? I don't.
I've got the H-20 (waiting for them to add the OTA upgrade before I order the HR-20) with the 5lnb of course.

I haven't watch that much of CSN though since I'm a Cardinal fan. :D

But when I have, it's always been in SD. Watching the Bulls - Mavs game right now in SD. I know it's being played in Dallas, but I've yet to see anything HD on 640.

You should have TWO channel 640's (weird, I know). If you've got your favorites set up, the second 640 might not show up. Go to "all channels" in the guide, and then see if you have two 640's. The second one is the HD channel. I don't know why it is this way - it just is.

John C.

rrrick8

11-14-06, 09:39 PM

You should have TWO channel 640's (weird, I know). If you've got your favorites set up, the second 640 might not show up. Go to "all channels" in the guide, and then see if you have two 640's. The second one is the HD channel. I don't know why it is this way - it just is.

John C.

I saw that while waiting for your reply. First-640 reads CSN. Second one reads RSN.

Ok thanks John. Got it checked.

vudurob

11-15-06, 05:28 PM

I hope I'm posting this in the right place! I'm fairly new to hdtv and the arcane world of antenna selection. I live in Mahomet, and am looking into an outdoor antenna. I went into Good Vibes today to ask a few questions about their antenna and installations. They install the Winegard 4400 or 8800 for $259, or $299, respectively. I've been on antenna web and am not sure these antennas would best suit my needs. If anyone could help out a bit I would sure appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

jdmcdonald

11-17-06, 10:00 AM

You will not get good reception of all stations in Mahomet with a single antenna
unless you have a rotor. WEIU will be difficult without a rather substantial
antenna height. If you just want all networks, a very reliable way is two 4400s,
with two leadins and a switch. One points SW, one east. Where you live, you might very well
just be able to connect them together with a quality "splitter" used as combiner.
This is more likely to work if you have a cheapie preamp in each leadin before the
combiner.

I personally would have Good Vibes install one 4400 and one leadin,
and try it both directions with no preamp. If that would both ways, I'd
have them install a second 4400 and leadin. Then you could try connections
later.

Or two vertically stacked 4400s, with reflectors removed, connected together with a
good (Monster) splitter will also likely work, aimed wsw.

Doug McDonald

bradandbree

11-17-06, 01:36 PM

Hi all,
In the interest of fairness, free market, and so on, I thought I'd mention that Good Vibes isn't the only game in town when it comes to antenna installation. There's also Premier Sound and Design on the SE corner of Prospect and Bradley in Champaign. I have absolutely no financial interest in the company itself, so no disclaimer is necessary, but they did my installation and I couldn't have been happier with their service and professionalism. I asked the same questions at both places, got essentially the same answers including the suggested antenna (Winegard 4400), and Premier's price was a little bit lower. If you mention to both that you're shopping around, someone might cut you a little deal. I've bought lots of stuff from Good Vibes over the years, so please understand I'm not saying don't go to GV, I'm just saying it can't hurt to look around.

Peace,
-Brad

PinkSplice

11-17-06, 04:50 PM

I have recieved WAND, WICD, WBUI (and even WEIU, WSEC, and WUSI!!) digital signals from here in STL, but not once have I recieved WICS-DT (RF-42). And WICS-20 analog is the most reliable signal from your market for me. Is WICS at full power yet? Their DS is for 2 KW, and thier DT is for 950 KW.

No WCIA or WILL received here. I understand that WCIA is still upgrading equipment.

jdmcdonald

11-17-06, 05:13 PM

YEs, WICS is full power. It is virtually a twin of WICD, and very similar to WBUI.

I have a permanent spectrum analyzer, and WBIU and WICS are always essentially identical.

However, here in Champaign WBUI is rock solid but WICS is iffy, since it is adjacent in channel to WICD, but it is 68 miles away and WICD is 15 miles away.

Likely some other channel is also on 42 and causing you lack of reception.

Doug McDonald

dishrich

11-18-06, 12:07 AM

Insight subs in Springfield - WBUI-HD (CW) is now lit up on 914
Next week on 11/22, we will also get WEIU-51 PBS, on digital 189 (SD only)

mdifanis

11-18-06, 08:30 PM

[QUOTE=jdmcdonald]You will not get good reception of all stations in Mahomet with a single antenna
unless you have a rotor. WEIU will be difficult without a rather substantial
antenna height.

=========================

I live in Mahomet. I recently moved from the northwest corner of Mahomet to a subdivision on the east side of town and against the Sangamon River. At the old house, my roof-mounted (on a one-story roof) Terk HDTVs antenna had no trouble pulling in WICS and WRSP from Springfield, WAND and WBUI from Decatur, and WILL and WCIA from Champaign. I aimed the antenna west along the horizon and used no rotor. Even the Springfield signals came in at 65% or stronger. I achieved these results with a long cable run and no pre-amplifier.

At my new house, the peak of the roof is considerably higher, but I suspect that I am in an area that sits at a lower elevation due to its Sangamon River proximity. The same antenna just got reinstalled yesterday. I have not fine-tuned the aim of the antenna, and right now, I get all of the same stations, except that the signal strength is marginal for the Springfield stations, which makes WRSP and WICS viewable only some of the time. I am hoping that fine-tuning the aim of the antenna and installing a pre-amplifier will do the trick. Unfortunately the new roof is far more steeply pitched, so I have a greater chance of getting killed in the process. Oh well; it would be for a worthy and noble cause: pursuit of the ultimate couch potato lifestyle!

Matt

Melanotheron

11-19-06, 11:31 AM

I live in Mahomet. .....had no trouble pulling in WICS and WRSP from Springfield, WAND and WBUI from Decatur, and WILL and WCIA from Champaign.
Matt
I also live in Mahomet and I get all of the stations Matt does with the exception of WCIA. In addition, I can pick up WICD and WCCU and I never have to adjust my antenna position. All stations are coming in at 80% or better. I am using an amplified indoor antenna from Radio Shack that I stuck on a shelf in my garage. Unfortunately, RS no longer carries the model of antenna that I have, but VUDUROB you may want to check into a cheap indoor antenna before having Good Vibes install a rooftop one.

Mel

srclontz

11-20-06, 12:24 AM

I don't get WILL though. Does anyone in Springfield?

On the northeast side of town I get 8 - 10 bars on WILL even though there is enough implulse noise from overhead power lines that analog WILL looks like garbage. I use an Antennacraft Y10-7-13 (about $35) from Warren electronics. Of course, removing the screen from my Channel Master 4221 allowed me to receive digital WSEC without impacting any of the other local channels, so I didn't really need to add the larger and uglier VHF antenna for PBS in HD.

mdifanis

11-20-06, 01:52 PM

I also live in Mahomet and I get all of the stations Matt does with the exception of WCIA. In addition, I can pick up WICD and WCCU and I never have to adjust my antenna position. All stations are coming in at 80% or better. I am using an amplified indoor antenna from Radio Shack that I stuck on a shelf in my garage. Unfortunately, RS no longer carries the model of antenna that I have, but VUDUROB you may want to check into a cheap indoor antenna before having Good Vibes install a rooftop one.

Mel

Mel:

I'm jealous that you can get decent results with an **indoor** antenna. I get WCIA with no trouble, but since WCIA apparently intends to wait until sometime in the 22nd Century to start broadcasting in HD, you're not missing much.

I am hopeful that I will not have to purchase a new antenna. My problem is that the Terk model that I own is somewhat directional, and if I aim for Decatur and Sprinfield, then I lose WCCU and WICD. I have never been able to receive even a hint of WICD from Mahomet, though.

I am about to order a pre-amplifier to install at the antenna. My hope is that a good quality pre-amp will make a difference compared to my current setup, which is a 50-foot cable run that runs into a $20 amplifier that I picked up at a hardware store. Since I still get WICS at my new location--just with a borderline signal--I am optimistic that a good pre-amp and a little bit of directional fine-tuning will solve my problems and bring back WRSP before "24" hits the air again in January!

Matt

mraub

11-20-06, 03:14 PM

ZJedi01

11-20-06, 07:17 PM

Matt,

Actually WCIA-HD should be on the air shortly after the first of the year (2007). A lot more days like today, and a lot less than like last week, will keep the project moving along. You can monitor the progress of their upgrade here:

http://www.wcia.com/highdef.asp

They should have an extremely potent signal once the new transmitter and antenna are operational.

Well living a bit north of springfield...guess that means its time to start trying to pull in WMBD in peoria for the Superbowl in HD. Let's just say I'm not overly confident they get this thing live by the March let alone the superbowl.

Melanotheron

11-20-06, 09:20 PM

I'm jealous that you can get decent results with an **indoor** antenna. I get WCIA with no trouble, but since WCIA apparently intends to wait until sometime in the 22nd Century to start broadcasting in HD, you're not missing much.

I have never been able to receive even a hint of WICD from Mahomet, though.

Matt
I feel pretty lucky, too. I was going to put up an outdoor antenna, but decided I would just try out an indoor antenna first, and, from what I have read from others on this thread, I am getting about everything that is available around here. I do get WCIA once in a great while, but it is never better than 59%, so it goes in and out and not worth watching. I also get WICS (Springfield) on channel 42.3, so you might try there. As far as WCIA goes, it's their loss since I never watch CBS so they have lost at least one potential consumer.

JD23

11-20-06, 09:58 PM

Matt,

Actually WCIA-HD should be on the air shortly after the first of the year (2007). A lot more days like today, and a lot less than like last week, will keep the project moving along. You can monitor the progress of their upgrade here:

http://www.wcia.com/highdef.asp

They should have an extremely potent signal once the new transmitter and antenna are operational.

It looks like the date keeps slipping. At this point, I would doubt that WCIA will be in HD in time for the super bowl. It looks like the cold weather is going to be a convenient scapegoat for the inevitable lack of progress. Has the poor weather been a surprise given that they decided to begin the project in late October? This is Illinois, not Florida.

BuffaloBill

11-21-06, 01:11 AM

Let's see, according to the web site the tower crew needs 7 weeks of uninterrupted work to complete it's job. Which means we have to add holidays and days lost to bad weather to that total. How many days of bad weather do you think will have this winter? Then there will be the testing, followed by waiting for special-order replacement parts, followed by more testing. If I were a betting man, I'd want odds before putting money on watching the Superbowl in HD. Maybe even money for March Madness.

mkjnovak

11-21-06, 03:29 AM

"While we would certainly like to provide a target on-air date for our HD, full-power system, it is unlikely we'd be able to keep that promise."

Well, at least that much is true.

Mike

BuffaloBill

11-21-06, 11:36 AM

As frustrating as the wait has been, the work has finally started at WCIA, which is more than you can say for some of the other Nexstar stations. And while I think that the light at the end of the tunnel is still pretty far away, at least I feel like I can see it now.

heavyharmonies

11-21-06, 11:48 AM

You know... 1 year ago we were all hoping that WCIA would be in HD by the time the Big Ten and NCAA tournaments came around in March.

Deja vu all over again...

bpjohns

11-21-06, 10:05 PM

thumperxr69

11-21-06, 11:10 PM

Well living a bit north of springfield...guess that means its time to start trying to pull in WMBD in peoria for the Superbowl in HD. Let's just say I'm not overly confident they get this thing live by the March let alone the superbowl.

I live a bit north of Springfield also and WMBD has been coming in at about 80% signal strength since they went full power about 4-5 weeks ago. :D

T

JD23

11-22-06, 12:12 AM

Hello all. Planning to make the jump to HD, which was a long time coming, especially since I do audiovisual work for my actual job :)

I have my eye on the LG 32LC2D. I saw a post saying that Insight should pass the HD local channels through to the QAM tuner on this unit. Has this been confirmed after their Digital 2.0 rollout? I'm cheap enough to avoid paying the extra $16/month for the DVR and local HD package if possible. Besides, the LG seems to be pretty well regarded in all aspects, and I don't quite have the room for a larger display.

Thanks,
Ben Johnson
Champaign IL

Some people have reported that they can receive the locals in HD with a QAM tuner. I have a Sony, however, and am unable to receive any of the local stations in HD. I only pick up a few random digital stations. Maybe some other people in Champaign can relay their experiences.

dishrich

11-22-06, 10:03 AM

Some people have reported that they can receive the locals in HD with a QAM tuner. I have a Sony, however, and am unable to receive any of the local stations in HD. I only pick up a few random digital stations. Maybe some other people in Champaign can relay their experiences.

Well I'm in Springfield, but unfortunately, I'm having the SAME issues here... :mad: :mad:
The last QAM TV I hooked up for a client on Insight a few months ago netted me ALL of the HD locals, plus WAND dopplar, The Tube, WSEC Create plus all the Music Choice.
BUT this past weekend, I hooked up a Sony Bravia XBR3 & let it scan & the ONLY things it found, outside of the Music Choice was WEIU (which is NOT even lit up on their digital boxes yet) WICS-HD, The Tube, WBUI HD, plus Soapnet (WHO cares) - THAT'S it! Evidently, it appears Insight is encrypting most of their HD local service, contrary to regulations (& even what is printed on their own channel lineup cards) that local HD is supposed to be unscrambled. :mad:

I'm going to try & find out more about this & why it's happening...

PinkSplice

11-22-06, 11:47 AM

mraub

11-22-06, 12:22 PM

Since WCIA has equipment and workers on site, I'm more optimistic than some here about them getting a signal on the air by year's end. However, I wonder if anyone in Champaign has been able to lock on to WMBD's signal out of Peoria? Depending on where WMBD's tower is located, it could be about the same distance from me as Springfield and I get solid locks on both ABC and Fox from Springfield. I don't have an antenna pointed toward Peoria, but I have a spare one I could point in that direction if getting a signal was possible.

mdifanis

11-22-06, 02:42 PM

I live in Mahomet. I recently moved from the northwest corner of Mahomet to a subdivision on the east side of town and against the Sangamon River. At the old house, my roof-mounted (on a one-story roof) Terk HDTVs antenna had no trouble pulling in WICS and WRSP from Springfield, WAND and WBUI from Decatur, and WILL and WCIA from Champaign. I aimed the antenna west along the horizon and used no rotor. Even the Springfield signals came in at 65% or stronger. I achieved these results with a long cable run and no pre-amplifier.

At my new house, the peak of the roof is considerably higher, but I suspect that I am in an area that sits at a lower elevation due to its Sangamon River proximity. The same antenna just got reinstalled yesterday. I have not fine-tuned the aim of the antenna, and right now, I get all of the same stations, except that the signal strength is marginal for the Springfield stations, which makes WRSP and WICS viewable only some of the time. I am hoping that fine-tuning the aim of the antenna and installing a pre-amplifier will do the trick. Unfortunately the new roof is far more steeply pitched, so I have a greater chance of getting killed in the process. Oh well; it would be for a worthy and noble cause: pursuit of the ultimate couch potato lifestyle!

Matt

**UPDATE**

I decided to try seeing if I could pull in WICD and WCCU from Champaign, since I have determined that WRSP and WICS are borderline at best with my antenna aimed west. WICD now comes in at 100%, according to the OTA tuner in the Dish receiver. WCCU is now a very usable 66%, which is just high enough that the signal stays consistently locked.

But now that I have aimed the antenna toward Champaign, I no longer receive WCIA-DT or WILL-DT. Both came in quite potently with the antenna aimed WSW. I have ordered a Channel Master amplifier that I will install at the antenna, which may make some difference. I almost never watch WILL, but I certainly will want to watch WCIA once it starts transmitting in HD. But if I understand the plans correctly, the output power and transmitter height will be increased, so that I will hopefully stand a good chance of getting WCIA back with my current antenna position.

I still get the Decatur channels (17 and 23) with a signal in the 70s, even now that the antenna is pointed toward Champaign and away from Decatur.

Matt

chiefillini99

11-27-06, 02:26 PM

I live on the far east side of Paxton. I am trying to find out what I need to pick up HD channels from that far North. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I am new to the site and have found lots of knowledgeable and friendly people on here. I am looking forward to being part of this community.

mrglock

11-28-06, 01:39 PM

Hello all. Planning to make the jump to HD, which was a long time coming, especially since I do audiovisual work for my actual job :)

I have my eye on the LG 32LC2D. I saw a post saying that Insight should pass the HD local channels through to the QAM tuner on this unit. Has this been confirmed after their Digital 2.0 rollout? I'm cheap enough to avoid paying the extra $16/month for the DVR and local HD package if possible. Besides, the LG seems to be pretty well regarded in all aspects, and I don't quite have the room for a larger display.

Thanks,
Ben Johnson
Champaign IL

I have the same LG you are looking at. I can pick up all the locals OTA. I live in east Urbana. I have a Winegard MS-2000 antenna.

nlane01s

11-28-06, 02:01 PM

I just recently signed up for Insight Cable's plan with HD and decided to go the cablecard option. It was installed yesterday, however, it's not working and the techs who installed it have no idea. I am using a Pioneer 4360HD.

Anyone else here use their cablecards? Are the channels suppose to just "show up". The cablecard diagnostic tool is showing a successful connection to the service, but no digital channels.

I get the analog channels ok via the coax cable, but no digital content and my channel up and down button does not work (obviously since there is no guide being filled by the cablecard).

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks!

gels

11-28-06, 05:33 PM

I have the same LG you are looking at. I can pick up all the locals OTA. I live in east Urbana. I have a Winegard MS-2000 antenna.

Hi there:

How high do you have your MS-200 and where in east Urbana are you located please

cheers

mrglock

11-28-06, 07:45 PM

My MS-2000 is about 30' to 35' from the ground. Myra Ridge area.

sebenste

11-28-06, 09:34 PM

dishrich

11-28-06, 10:28 PM

And you subscribe to Mediacom in the eastern Illinois area...

Feel free to charge your neighbors an admission fee to your home theater system. ;)

OK, in all seriousness, this is NOT good news.

http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2006/11/28/mediacom_viewers_in_area_face_threat_of_losing_abc_shows

It ISN'T just in eastern IL, Mediacom has several systems in central/western IL & is obviously having the same fight with WICS... :rolleyes:

I am SO glad I can watch ABC from other cities - I am SO sick of seeing their stupid-a$$ ticker about this EVERY 1/4 hour... :rolleyes:

vudurob

11-28-06, 11:12 PM

Well, I think that I finally have decided what I'm going to do as far as an antenna goes, and have a couple of questions.

I live in northwest Mahomet, and rather than mess around with a rotor, I plan on installing 2 Winegard 4400 antennas (one facing E, the other SW) on a 10' mast (with tripod support) on the roof, and using a splitter as a "combiner." I was thinking that I would install the antennas without preamps first, and if needed install them later. Oh, did I mention that I was going to be adventurous and try to do this myself? Should be interesting. Anyway, here are a couple question:

1) Should the "combiner" be located closer to the antennas or the television? Does it make a difference?

2) Is there anything special (spacing, etc) that needs to be done with the antennas since they will be on the same mast?

Those are the main questions that I have at this point. I'm looking into buying supplies and materials soon so that I can work on it before the weather gets really nasty. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!

sebenste

11-29-06, 12:59 AM

It ISN'T just in eastern IL, Mediacom has several systems in central/western IL & is obviously having the same fight with WICS... :rolleyes:

I am SO glad I can watch ABC from other cities - I am SO sick of seeing their stupid-a$$ ticker about this EVERY 1/4 hour... :rolleyes:

Ugh. Well, this is going to be a nationwide fight with other stations and other cable companies. DirecTV and Dish set the standard, and now they want cable to do the same.

That has to tick off people trying to record shows, too.

dishrich

11-29-06, 01:44 AM

Ugh. Well, this is going to be a nationwide fight with other stations and other cable companies. DirecTV and Dish set the standard, and now they want cable to do the same.

Yup, SAME catfight happened with Nexstar & Cable One - IIRC it was in Joplin, MO, or some place around there. I think the Nexstar stations are STILL off the system & it's been about a year now.

mraub

11-29-06, 11:38 AM

In theory, you are not supposed to just connect 2 antennae with a combiner because one may interfere with the other. Having said that, I have done just as you propose with good results. You may have to fool with the spacing between the 2 antennae for best results. I'd combine them on the tower and just run one feed line down (once you verify everything is working to your satisfaction). If you plan to use a typical triangular tower in good repair, I'd guess it would easily support these 2, relatively small, antennae. Not so sure about the capacity of the tubular towers.

In any case be careful. OSHA requires fall protection for anything over 6 feet (if I recall correctly). Most people, including many contractors, ignore this rule, but I recently saw a case where an experienced roofer died after a fall of only about 9 feet.

Well, I think that I finally have decided what I'm going to do as far as an antenna goes, and have a couple of questions.

I live in northwest Mahomet, and rather than mess around with a rotor, I plan on installing 2 Winegard 4400 antennas (one facing E, the other SW) on a 10' mast (with tripod support) on the roof, and using a splitter as a "combiner." I was thinking that I would install the antennas without preamps first, and if needed install them later. Oh, did I mention that I was going to be adventurous and try to do this myself? Should be interesting. Anyway, here are a couple question:

1) Should the "combiner" be located closer to the antennas or the television? Does it make a difference?

2) Is there anything special (spacing, etc) that needs to be done with the antennas since they will be on the same mast?

Those are the main questions that I have at this point. I'm looking into buying supplies and materials soon so that I can work on it before the weather gets really nasty. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!

rrrick8

11-30-06, 09:46 AM

I get low 80's as the signal strength on my H20 on the Chicago MPEG4 spotbeam. Not quite as good as RRick, but I don't know if we have the same receiver, and even within receiver types there are variations on the signal strength meters. Unfortunately, no one seems to have an accurate MPEG4 spot beam map, though there is speculation that the beams are roughly the same as the SD spotbeams - so if you can get that, I'm betting you can get the MPEG4 signal, as well. The new dish is a bit larger than the 3-lnb Phase III dish, and the signal strengths seem better across the board. Unfortunately, probably the only way to tell is to find someone with the new 5-lnb dish and an H20 receiver, and then take a look at the 103 sat transponders (I think Chicago is on Transponder 8, but I can't remember off the top of my head, and I'm not in front of my receiver to check) using the receiver's satellite strength meter in the setup menu.

I've got an HR20 (MPEG4 DVR) on order, but they are in short supply right now (and the software is buggy, anyway). Right now I'm praying that the MPEG2 HD DNS signals (channels 80-88) don't go away soon, because I use them to record on my HR10-250 (I still don't completely trust WICD/WAND, although they seem to pretty much have their HD act together lately). I do record FOX via channel 27 OTA, since it seems to be very reliable.

I assume that DirecTV will put the Champaign/Springfield market up on MPEG 4 once they have their new sats in place next year, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was late 2007 or early 2008 before it happens. And even then, I'll probably keep Chicago, since the Cubs/Bears/Bulls coverage on local news is (obviously) much better than what we get locally. Another big plus for me is that you get Comcast Sportsnet Chicago in HD, too, which means Cubs/Bulls/White Sox home games are all in HD on channel 640.

John C.

Hey John. Do a re-scan of your channels. WGN HD just added.

nwang

11-30-06, 10:05 PM

Melanotheron

11-30-06, 10:25 PM

I think that may be a Weather Watch/Warning that you are seeing.

jdcolombo

11-30-06, 10:32 PM

Hey John. Do a re-scan of your channels. WGN HD just added.

Yep - I saw that on Tuesday night. Great news for us Cub sufferers (er . . . fans).

I also finally got my hands on an HR20. I still like my HR10-250 with the Tivo interface better, but the HR20 so far has worked fine on basic recording. I recorded Veronica Mars off WGN-HD, and it was mostly fine (a few audio dropouts, but nothing major). The HR20 is maybe a few software updates away from being really solid, but so far so good.

John C.

rrrick8

12-01-06, 07:44 AM

I noticed that WICD has started placing a station logo on their HD broadcast within the past week or so. It is a solid, bold, white W in the upper right corner - not translucent. This also appears to be in addition to the normal translucent ABC logo in the lower right. This is disturbing to me because I watch tv on a plasma monitor that is susceptible to burn in.

I will inform the station of my displeasure. I'm planning on contacting the station engineer at engineering@wicd15.com. Does anyone have any other pertinent contact information?

Thanks!

You must be new to the area, heh?
As Melanotheron said, that's the weather warning indicator.

Expect to see it often during the winter and spring months.

I also finally got my hands on an HR20. I still like my HR10-250 with the Tivo interface better, but the HR20 so far has worked fine on basic recording. I recorded Veronica Mars off WGN-HD, and it was mostly fine (a few audio dropouts, but nothing major). The HR20 is maybe a few software updates away from being really solid, but so far so good.

Yeah, I just added my name to D** waiting list. Hopefully they'll have added the OTA capability by the time I receive mine.

nwang

12-01-06, 06:03 PM

You must be new to the area, heh?
As Melanotheron said, that's the weather warning indicator.

Expect to see it often during the winter and spring months.

You guys are right.

I've been watching OTA HDTV in the area for about four years now - never noticed it before. I guess I should watch more TV!

Thanks.

JD23

12-01-06, 11:38 PM

Has anyone in the Champaign area had trouble picking up WILL (ch. 12) over the past two days? Right now I am getting no signal for both the digital and analog stations. I have always had a strong WILL signal in the past so this is unexpected.

blackjackmark

12-01-06, 11:53 PM

blackjackmark

12-02-06, 12:15 AM

dishrich

12-02-06, 12:47 AM

-WILL has a post on their homepage regarding this - Insight cable in Champaign-Urbana is not affected:
http://www.will.uiuc.edu/

-WSEC on analog is not affected in the Springfield headend, as they direct feed to Insight (should not affect Decatur or Lincoln, either) However, the HD feed is down.

-WCFN is off on Insight in Springfield

All 3 stations, as well as WCIA are off on DirecTV - I don't know about DISH Network yet. I'm going to try & find out tomorrow.

srclontz

12-02-06, 01:15 PM

Still wondering about the original question...if I swap out for a directional and point it towards 17.1/3.1, (shown as "E" and "D" on the map) that'll leave 27.1 and 15.1 (shown as "A" and "B")on the backside...does a directional antenna pull much of any signal from the backend? On the one hand, I know "directional" would mean just that...but on the other, it just seems like it should get a decent signal from the opposite side that it's pointed...and nothing from the sides. But then again, I REALLY don't have a good concept how they work in the first place!

Thoughts?

You could use a Channel Master 4221 or 4228 with the screen removed (easily done by bending a couple tabs that hold the screen in place). Essentially this makes it a bi-directional antenna that receives equally well from the front and back, and very little from the sides. I know removing the screen reduces gain, but I'd bet that this would still work better than an omni directional antenna. In any case, it works well for me from Springfield to receive 17, 20, 23, 49 55 as well as 14 from the opposite direction (at least when the stations are transmitting).

Laddy

12-02-06, 01:18 PM

All 3 stations, as well as WCIA are off on DirecTV - I don't know about DISH Network yet. I'm going to try & find out tomorrow.

As of noon, 12/2/2006, WILL, WSEC, and WCFN are not available on Dish. Channel 3 is available.

blackjackmark

12-02-06, 01:36 PM

As of noon, 12/2/2006, WILL, WSEC, and WCFN are not available on Dish. Channel 3 is available.

Permanently "as of noon", or temporarily..as in "as of noon I just checked and they're not there"? :confused:

dishrich

12-02-06, 02:37 PM

As of noon, 12/2/2006, WILL, WSEC, and WCFN are not available on Dish. Channel 3 is available.

Yes, I can confirm this today as well...

I DO know for a fact that DirecTV's Local Receive Facility (LRF) for the Springfield market is out at WRSP's studios. They evidently are pulling WCIA from the the subchannel of WCFN-DT, hence the reason why BOTH are off on DirecTV. This would also explain why WILL has some sparking on it, as it is hard to a get clean off-air pickup of WILL-12 over here in Springfield. (BTW, D* STILL does NOT have WEIU added to our locals lineup, while E* does. :mad: )

DISH evidently has their LRF at a different location. They (obviously) are either pulling WCIA directly from off-air, or have a direct link to WCIA. (doubtful) Their feed of WILL doesn't seem to have the sparking that DirecTV's feed does. I thought I had read somewhere that their LRF was in Decatur, which would explain all of the above.

Evidently, since WCIA IS still on Insight cable here in Springfield, they are NOT pulling it from the WCFN-DT subchannel anymore - they probably now pulling it directly from WCIA & are then running it back over their fiber connection between their Decatur & Springfield headend to get it back over here. Obviously they STILL are pulling WCFN from it's Springfield transmitter, since it's out on cable & the off-air signals are down.

blackjackmark

12-02-06, 07:26 PM

Premiere installed one of these two weeks ago, and I've been unsatisfied with the signal level of 17.1...usually in the very low 70s. On Thursday night, the signal was unwatchable, I guess due to the ice storm we were having.

I did some research on the Winegard website, and found that, even though it's "omnidirectional"...it actually does exhibit some directional properties. So I loosened the bolts and twisted it a quarter-turn, and am happy to report that it worked!

Started at 76 for 17.1 and got it up to 84-87%, while maintaing 15.1 at 92 and 27.1 at 98! (12.1 still off the air, so I hope I didn't blow that one.) Just to see how "directional" it really is, I rotated it 180 degrees from where I started, and Fox dropped to 70%, so that seemed to verify the "directionality" of this omnidirectional antenna.

Anyway, knew that several of you have this same antenna, and if you're not happy, give a twist to the pole (the antenna pole, that is! ;) ) and see if you can better your signal.

mrglock

12-02-06, 08:09 PM

sebenste

12-03-06, 01:22 AM

Evidently, since WCIA IS still on Insight cable here in Springfield, they are NOT pulling it from the WCFN-DT subchannel anymore - they probably now pulling it directly from WCIA & are then running it back over their fiber connection between their Decatur & Springfield headend to get it back over here. Obviously they STILL are pulling WCFN from it's Springfield transmitter, since it's out on cable & the off-air signals are down.

Rich,

Good insight here. I have seen news footage from Decatur and Springfield...Decatur looks like a warzone, and Springfield looks even worse. Between four tornadoes (was there and filmed two of them), a major snowstorm following two of them, and now a major ice storm, I feel really bad for all of you down there. This has not been your year. :(

I wonder if WCFN has lost power entirely at their master control. Whatever tower the weather radio station is on keeps going out with a generator that is having problems, if they run off of that.

Either way, I hope you all hang in there and get that power back on...with it this cold, it does more than stink.

dishrich

12-03-06, 01:38 PM

I wonder if WCFN has lost power entirely at their master control.

I doubt it, since they come out of the same studio at WCIA - if anyone that is on Insight in Champaign could confirm, I bet they still have WCFN on their cable. (since they would either be pulling from WCIA-DT's subchannel, OR maybe a direct feed on WCFN as well.

BTW, WCFN & WSEC are all back on now - WILL is still out as of now...

Either way, I hope you all hang in there and get that power back on...with it this cold, it does more than stink.

Thx for your thoughts. Actually I can't complain too much - NONE of my utilities (cable, electric) has even blinked this time around. :)

Joony

12-03-06, 02:14 PM

Anyone having QAM issues for Insight? I used to be able to get WAND, WILL, WCCU. Now the the only thing that comes up is WICD, WILL (with a blank screen), and Tube.

dishrich

12-03-06, 06:22 PM

Anyone having QAM issues for Insight? I used to be able to get WAND, WILL, WCCU. Now the the only thing that comes up is WICD, WILL (with a blank screen), and Tube.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8964241#post8964241

heavyharmonies

12-06-06, 06:08 PM

JD23

12-07-06, 02:02 AM

Well, thanks to the court injunction against Dish, my waiver from WCIA is now useless, and along with it, CBSHD from New York is toast.

So now I get to put my faith in WCIA actually broadcasting at some point in the next 2 years. Right now I can't even read any OTA signal from them at all.

Yay.

*harumph*

Bah Humbug!

Per WCIA's semi-weekly update:

The tower crew returned to the site 11-29-06, just in time for the ice storm on Thursday. I spoke to the crew foreman yesterday and he told me there is still 3 inches of ice caking the tower, right above the area the crew needs to be to continue the tower reinforcement. He said he'd take some pictures of the ice, and as soon as I get them I will post them here. Hopefully they can begin working again in the next couple of days.

That doesn't sound good. Right now I would guess April is probably a good estimate.

mraub

12-07-06, 11:35 AM

Someone needs to start a WCIA-HD pool. Pick a date for $10, closest wins the pot.

I tend to be on the optimistic side as I suspect the tower people overestimated the actual time they need to do the job, figuring there would be some weather delays. I'd like to hear the transmitter people have been back to insure the system is ready to fire up as soon as the antenna is completed. I wish they could do a temporary hookup to their existing antenna, but I can see how that could be difficult given that the feed line is not exactly flexible.

jdmcdonald

12-09-06, 04:19 PM

dishrich

12-10-06, 09:31 AM

I'd like WCIA to realize that HDTV and a megawatt are very different things. Unless their tower is too weak to hold the digital microwave antenna, they should be able to get HDTV withoytr going to a megawatt.

You know, I am SO glad somebody else mentioned this! It has NEVER made any sense to me that they could NOT go HD sooner on (at least) their WCIA-DT signal. They STILL have their full power analog signal up, so there was NO issue with their analog/SD viewers NOT continuing to get service as is.

NOW, us poor suckers in Springfield w/WCFN-DT, it's another story - when they started up WCFN-UPN, I know their whole intention was to x-mitt WCIA AND WCFN in SD on the WCFN-DT signal, so that cable systems (& the VERY few off-air viewers w/digital tuners :rolleyes: ) on the west end could STILL pick up WCIA-SD clearly for analog distribution. And even with us, as least as far as Insight cable goes, that's evidently is NO longer an issue, since from the outage of WCFN-DT recently, Insight is NO longer using WCFN-DT to pick up CBS over here anymore.

sebenste

12-10-06, 04:56 PM

You know, I am SO glad somebody else mentioned this! It has NEVER made any sense to me that they could NOT go HD sooner on (at least) their WCIA-DT signal. They STILL have their full power analog signal up, so there was NO issue with their analog/SD viewers NOT continuing to get service as is.

Rich,

There are two issues with WCIA, as you know: the transmitter install, including the new antenna, and going HD.

WCIA faces the second problem as a much more difficult, separate issue. If the studios were co-located with the tower, it would be MUCH easier to do. Up here in the Rockford area, the same owners have WQRF-DT, our Fox affiliate, at 2.3 kw, but they recently put that antenna on their sister station's tower next to the studio, from a separate antenna a 1/2 mile away. It was thus considerably easier for them to go HD in master control and then pipe it out the building to the adjacent tower.

The problem with WCIA and many stations is they have to use an expensive studio to transmitter link (STL) to get the HD feed out to the transmitter (in WCIA's case, to the remote west side of the county). To do that, they also need to strengthen the tower if they plan to use a microwave antenna to pick up that signal, or they need to order fiber, and either way, THEN get two HD processing plants, one at the master control end, and one at the tower end to process and send out. This setup is anything but easy and cheap to do.

WMBD Peoria and WCIA both chose to do both at the same time. Turns out WMBD got to full power faster than they got the HD going up in Peoria, and history shows that's often the case. So, I bet you get a signal-pegging 4:3 signal of WCIA
before you get the 16:9 HD.

Of much, much greater concern is this. If WCIA does not get powered up on January 2, 2007, they violate the "use it or lose it" drop-dead deadline set by the FCC. If they don't make it, the FCC will tell them that after 2009, they will only be able to stay at 1 mw IF they interfere with no other stations at their nearly *2 kw* level, forever. And if I were at WCIA, I'd be wetting my pants over that one. They are pleading poverty like a FOX station in Eau Claire, WI did...but that's because they could easily prove with the little market revenue they had and being a mom-and-popper, they'd literally go bankrupt going full power building out a digital plant at their remote tower. WCIA's parent company is going to the FCC and saying they are in the same boat. But their lack of money is strictly from buying many overpriced stations, and now not being able to put capital into them.
And my guess is that the FCC will see straight through that smoke and mirrors and let 'em have it. Unfortunately, it will mean many stations will either stay at low power, or more likely, be at lower power than what they should be at after analog shutdown.

Phew. I wish I could give you guys some good news on that one.

heavyharmonies

12-10-06, 06:20 PM

mdamberger

12-10-06, 11:38 PM

Rich,

There are two issues with WCIA, as you know: the transmitter install, including the new antenna, and going HD.

WCIA faces the second problem as a much more difficult, separate issue. If the studios were co-located with the tower, it would be MUCH easier to do.

Very true indeed. You literally run a coaxial cable out to the transmitter room. Only costs you a few dollars to run that piece of gear. Ends and all.

The problem with WCIA and many stations is they have to use an expensive studio to transmitter link (STL) to get the HD feed out to the transmitter (in WCIA's case, to the remote west side of the county). To do that, they also need to strengthen the tower if they plan to use a microwave antenna to pick up that signal, or they need to order fiber, and either way, THEN get two HD processing plants, one at the master control end, and one at the tower end to process and send out. This setup is anything but easy and cheap to do.

There are a few ways around not having to put up another microwave dish. The beauty of microwave links is you can put multiple frequencies on a single path. Provided you are not interfering with another user near by and you’re willing to put up the equipment costs. But it's a one time expense, and if the links are already established and known to be solid links, it's far cheaper then fiber optics. Generally most transmitter sites are not near fiber optic hubs. Fiber's great for intercity links between major metropolitan areas. Rural areas generally don't have local hubs to connect into. There very well could be a fiber run adjacent to a highway near a transmitter site, but chances are this link is never going to be severed for just one user to hop onto. Fiber costs about $20 per foot to bury in cities and maybe a little less out in rural areas. Microwave will cost between 50-80k depending on redundancy. You can piggyback onto the same link as the old analog link. Some microwaves can even use a duel link, one analog and a digital side by side occupying the same bandwidth and frequencies as the old analog microwave. MRC makes one called twin-stream. Meaning you won't have to license another frequency, particularly useful in congested markets where all the transmitters are in the same vicinity.

And my guess is that the FCC will see straight through that smoke and mirrors and let 'em have it. Unfortunately, it will mean many stations will either stay at low power, or more likely, be at lower power than what they should be at after analog shutdown.

I think the FCC will look at what they are doing right now, and see an effort moving in the direction of building out a full power facility. Bad weather, crew availability, ordered equipment, some already installed. I think they will give them a six month extension.

dishrich

12-11-06, 01:29 AM

Well I'm in Springfield, but unfortunately, I'm having the SAME issues here... :mad: :mad:
The last QAM TV I hooked up for a client on Insight a few months ago netted me ALL of the HD locals, plus WAND dopplar, The Tube, WSEC Create plus all the Music Choice.
BUT this past weekend, I hooked up a Sony Bravia XBR3 & let it scan & the ONLY things it found, outside of the Music Choice was WEIU (which is NOT even lit up on their digital boxes yet) WICS-HD, The Tube, WBUI HD, plus Soapnet (WHO cares) - THAT'S it! Evidently, it appears Insight is encrypting most of their HD local service, contrary to regulations (& even what is printed on their own channel lineup cards) that local HD is supposed to be unscrambled. :mad:

I'm going to try & find out more about this & why it's happening...

Well, I finally got myself a Sony SXRD XBR2 for Xmas - I just hooked it up to my cable & the ONLY things I get (besides the music channels) is WEIU, Soapnet & Toon Disney - NONE of the local HD/subchannels came it at all. :mad: :rolleyes:
I'm going to call Insight & find out the 411 on this crap...

jcraft1

12-12-06, 10:52 AM

I was wondering if anybody from around Springfield has tried to get Chicago HD locals using a Chicago address from Directv. Are we able to get them down here or are we outside the spot beam?

mraub

12-12-06, 10:58 AM

You might try asking at dbstalk.com. Someone there posted spot beam coverage maps for Dish, and I assume someone has ones for DirecTV as well.

I was wondering if anybody from around Springfield has tried to get Chicago HD locals using a Chicago address from Directv. Are we able to get them down here or are we outside the spot beam?

dishrich

12-12-06, 10:13 PM

I was wondering if anybody from around Springfield has tried to get Chicago HD locals using a Chicago address from Directv. Are we able to get them down here or are we outside the spot beam?

If you look back a couple pages, someone over in Champaign IS getting the Chicago HD locals with no problems. I am getting ready to attempt this myself, but I am waiting for my distributor to get more of the new Slimline D* in - I am also doing one for a client north of town as well, but I want to try it here first for myself, as I am not all that sure it will be strong enough to make it down here, but who knows.

I'll post a report as soon as I find out... :)

sebenste

12-12-06, 11:18 PM

Thanks for the insightful response.

The bottom line though, in my opinion, is that WCIA (or their parent company) has screwed this up so many times, at so many different levels, that they have only themselves to blame if they don't make the deadline. It's been delay after delay after delay, and excuse heaped upon excuse. This last-minute scrambling fools no one.

Ultimately though, it is the consumer that loses. :(

If I'm understanding you correctly, there's a possibility (or probability) that WCIA will be forced to transmit at lower power, meaning a lot more of US will not be able to get their signal. Great. Fine. Spiffy. That just punishes US for WCIA's incompetence.

What am I missing?

The part where you kick the drywall and break it in utter frustration and despair. :D

Seriously though, you got it. I don't know if it is a probability, but certainly there is some possibility at the very least. Mdamberger: you are spot on except for one thing: you say that they'll probably grant a 6 month Special Temporary Authority (STA) extension to the low power. Problem is, back in August, that was DENIED because of a lack of progress within the company. The parent company filed an STA for ALL their stations now not at full power...which is to say, all but 4 of them, and they don't expect the rest to be up until 2009. And, the schedule I posted this summer is already 4 months plus behind schedule. WCIA was due to be at full power in October, I believe...or last month...I can't remember offhand, but either way...if the stations first in line are behind, it will be nearly impossible for them to catch up. My Rockford FOX station is next after you guys...let me know when you're done so we can have a shot for them to work on ours before 1/2/07!

How odd it would be if only 4 of their 15 or so stations made it to full power, and WCIA would be the last one in line to get it. At least you guys will have full power CBS, up here in Rockford, we'll have 2.3 kilowatt FOX (I can get it, yes it is in HD, BUT 1 mw would get them almost to Chicago). And anything below 15.01 kw on UHF is a low power station, so technically, they would lose their full power license. One of the company stations doesn't even have a low-power STA digital signal yet, and one station forgot to file for one. Oops! Worse, check out some of the station applications. Forgetting to file paperwork, missing files...

I know, I know, it's fun to use WCIA as a punching bag, and they aren't totally not at fault. But almost all of the blame comes from above them, and their company statement from headquarters to the FCC flatly admits it is them causing the trouble.

JD23

12-13-06, 11:48 PM

Well, I finally got myself a Sony SXRD XBR2 for Xmas - I just hooked it up to my cable & the ONLY things I get (besides the music channels) is WEIU, Soapnet & Toon Disney - NONE of the local HD/subchannels came it at all. :mad: :rolleyes:
I'm going to call Insight & find out the 411 on this crap...

I have an SXRD A2000 and get almost those exact same channels . No HD at all though. Hopefully Insight will have some information for you (highly doubtful).

jdcolombo

12-14-06, 09:08 PM

If you look back a couple pages, someone over in Champaign IS getting the Chicago HD locals with no problems. I am getting ready to attempt this myself, but I am waiting for my distributor to get more of the new Slimline D* in - I am also doing one for a client north of town as well, but I want to try it here first for myself, as I am not all that sure it will be strong enough to make it down here, but who knows.

I'll post a report as soon as I find out... :)

I'm the guy over in Champaign getting the Chicago locals. After doing a bit of touch up on my AT9 dish, I'm now getting the same signal strength as RRick: in the low 90's on all the Chicago spot beams.

It's possible that spot beam drops off drastically 90 miles to the west, but I'll bet not THAT drastically. If you know of a DirecTV dealer somewhere in Springfield who has an AT9 dish (the 5-lnb dish) and an H20 HD receiver, go there and ask to see the signal strengths on the 103 sat from the setup menu. That will tell you if you can get the Chicago locals or not - and you don't have to be in the 90's to get them (70-80 will do fine, though you might have some rain fade issues on stormy days).

John C.

EDIT - oops, from your post, it sounds like you ARE a dealer, or at least an installer. The slimline dish looks nicer than the original AT9, but I wonder if it gets as good a signal??

dishrich

12-15-06, 02:05 AM

It's possible that spot beam drops off drastically 90 miles to the west, but I'll bet not THAT drastically. If you know of a DirecTV dealer somewhere in Springfield who has an AT9 dish (the 5-lnb dish) and an H20 HD receiver, go there and ask to see the signal strengths on the 103 sat from the setup menu. That will tell you if you can get the Chicago locals or not - and you don't have to be in the 90's to get them (70-80 will do fine, though you might have some rain fade issues on stormy days).

Yes, I'm aware of all that - unfortunately, the 101 bird w/the Chicago spot beam drops off pretty well over here. That's why I installed a 3' dish f/101 for myself, to make up some for the lower Chicago spot beam signal, as it would break up during the daytime, or in the tiniest amount of rain. All of this is why I'm not that confident it'll get over here, but hopefully I'm wrong.

On the MPEG4 bird, what x-ponder are the Chicago locals on? If you can tell me this, I could actually find one somewhere over here to check. ;) ;)

it sounds like you ARE a dealer, or at least an installer. The slimline dish looks nicer than the original AT9, but I wonder if it gets as good a signal??

Yes to both - from what I've read on other boards, the slimline does just as good, but you do NOT have those 2 jumpers from the 110/119 LNB's, which is something else to go haywire. (& which others have said has been happening on some of them) Someone did post somewhere that earlier versions of the slimline REQUIRED using a multiswitch, even with 4 or less connections - the "revision 1" slimlines have fixed this.

jmonsour

12-15-06, 09:16 PM

JD23

12-16-06, 12:11 AM

sebenste

12-16-06, 12:12 AM

ZJedi01

12-16-06, 10:09 AM

But the http://www.wcia.com posting today (12-15-06) of the progress of the installation of the transmitter, tower upgrades and anything else should give us all an appreciation of how darn hard it is to do something like this. And to think it is happening or has happened at thousands of TV stations across the country!

With the testing of their DTV transmitter at 80% power and looking sharp, it is a good thing to see. And with that posting today comes the announcement of going to generator power for at least 3 days, using a 320 kw generator. THAT is expensive, folks. I more than bet that their low-power digital signal will be down while this happens.

And I hope you didn't get queasy looking down! :D Way cool pix, guys! Thanks for that post and pictures!!! Keep the pictures coming!

Do you work for them or something? Ah, poor WCIA, it' SO expensive to run that generator, yack, sorry I just threw up a little in my mouth. I bet not nearly as expensive as the advertising dollars they are losing for being the only station in the market without HD and if they don't have it by the Super Bowl...there goes another huge chunk of cash from people who will turn their antenna to WMBD or someother station if they can.

dishrich

12-16-06, 10:38 AM

I was playing around with my QAM tuner on my Sony today and found a bunch of the locals in HD on Insight in Springfield. WBUI is 128.1, WEIU at 127.9, WILL Create on 127.55, WICS on 119.2 and the Tube on 119.4, WAND weather on 118.4, WILL HD on 117.3, WSEC create on 100.5, WAND HD on 100.3, and WSEC HD on 100.2. I have not been able to find WRSP HD yet.

First of all, thanks for posting this info. How did you find all these? Did you just let it do a regular scan, then started "channel surfing" thru them - or did you start checking EACH hidden channel, to see if it would come in?

I did not want to say anything before I heard back, but I did actually talk to Insight's lead tech Wednesday. I asked him if Insight had started encrypting these channels & he checked with the headend, & told me that a TV they use, that does NOT have a box or card, was working fine with these channels. So, I came home again that evening & I did find some of these, but I definitely did NOT find all of these.

So, I called him back again, to try & get the "official" list of the subchannels they were using, but he has not returned my call yet. But I just now tried all of these & they ARE coming in right now - something is VERY fishy here. :confused: :eek:

I am getting ready to head out to hook up a new Sony 60" SXRD XBR2, so I will be letting it do a "virgin" channel scan on cable - I'm taking this list with me & seeing if the TV successfully finds all these channels on it's own. I'm starting to wonder if the TV is having a problem "finding" all of these.

I'll post what happens today when I get back tonight...

jmonsour

12-16-06, 10:56 AM

jmonsour

12-16-06, 10:57 AM

My Sony is the old CRT 57" HD Built IN.

Laddy

12-16-06, 05:26 PM

Here's a direct link to the WCIA tower story to which Gilbert was referring.

http://extranet.wcia.com/wcfn/news/HiDef.htm

JD23

12-16-06, 07:36 PM

I started checking each channel then I started checking for channels that weren't there like 128, then whichever channel wasn't there already like 100 I entered 100.1 and then the others popped on. I haven't tried a rescan yet, didn't want to mess up a good thing and then have to go fishing for the channels again.

How did you know the channel numbers of the missing stations? I get no HD stations with my QAM tuner when I do an auto scan, but I have no idea which channel numbers I should even be looking for.

jmonsour

12-16-06, 08:57 PM

dishrich

12-17-06, 03:12 PM

I remembered on a previous scan here that WICS was 119.2 so I typed 119.1 on my TV and it picked it up. I did it through trial and error, I didn't rescan, I just started trying numbers and was amazed to find the channels.

OK, I DO think something might be wrong with these Sony tuners... :eek: :mad:
I got up today & I decided to let my TV do a complete initial channel scan, which totally wipes out ALL existing digital/analog channels & reprograms from scratch. So, after it finished up, the ONLY channels that were in the tuner were WILL Create & WEIU!

Now, BEFORE I started entering in your numbers that you kindly provided, I went through the show/hide function on the TV, so that I could see if when the TV went through it's auto-prog function, if it had added ANY of the missing digital channels in each of the single channel# ranges. (for example, the TV did NOT add ANYTHING on ch 100.xx) So I then picked a digital channel# at random & entered it manually - like 100.77. AFTER I did this, I did NOT get a picture, BUT then I went back into the show/hide menu, & ALL 3 of these subchannels on your list were NOW magically listed as shown channels! :eek:
So, I did this procedure several more times on EVERY channel that did NOT come up as a digital "bouquet" - again in EVERY instance, ALL of the digitals in that same bouquet now appeared on the list to show/hide. Note that when you do this, the TV makes ALL of the subchannels in the bouquet SHOWN, even if they are encrypted/blank - you'll have to go back & hide the ones that do NOT have anything on them, but at least now you CAN find the viewable ones.

Now, I have to confess - on the WRSP-HD, I cheated. I went somewhere with an HD-DVR & Sony HD TV & found the frequency that it's being sent on, via the "secret" diagnostic screen of the DVR. I never even stopped to consider that Insight was using ch 69 for any digital service. (since it is in the middle of their analog channel lineup) FYI - I did the same above procedure on the TV on ch 41 & it has no digital service on it at this time) But AGAIN, the question I have is - why the hell didn't the Sony find the digitals on ch 69 in the first place, especially since it IS in the clear? :(

Evidently, these Sony tuners seem to have a hard time finding ALL of the digital channels that it really SHOULD be finding automatically - but then OTOH, I wonder if Insight recently DID do something to these channels, to make these TV's "miss" finding them in a channel scan. Either way, this is a mess that I am concerned about, especially as more & more people buy QAM tuner TV's. :eek: :confused:

OK, so here is a comprehensive list of all of the clear QAM Insight channels in Springfield/Decatur/Lincoln systems, in QAM channel order: (subject to Insight changing them, of course)

WRSP-HD FOX 69.3
Toon Disney 82.5
WSEC-HD PBS 100.2
WAND-HD NBC 100.3
WSEC Create 100.5
SoapNet 110.5
WILL-HD PBS 117.3
WAND Weather 118.4
WICS-HD ABC 119.2
The Tube 119.4
WEIU-PBS Charleston 127.9
WILL Create 127.55
WBUI-HD CW 128.1

dishrich

12-17-06, 03:14 PM

I have an SXRD A2000 and get almost those exact same channels . No HD at all though. Hopefully Insight will have some information for you (highly doubtful).

Read my post above on how you now might be able to find all those channels - since it appears Insight is NOT encrypting these channels after all, my procedure above should work over in Champaign, too. :) ;)

dishrich

12-17-06, 04:29 PM

Oh, something else that I guess Insight didn't think about (again) - if you are a cable customer with ONLY broadcast basic, you will probably WON'T be able to pull in WRSP-HD, since the expanded basic tier traps Insight uses start knocking out signals around ch 70-71 & below down to ch 24. They USED to use traps that just knocked out everything above 24, but that became a problem for cable modem customers w/broadcast basic, so they went to these new ones that only cut out only the expanded basic tier.

jdcolombo

12-17-06, 06:14 PM

On the MPEG4 bird, what x-ponder are the Chicago locals on? If you can tell me this, I could actually find one somewhere over here to check. ;) ;)

I'm not exactly sure which transponder is Chicago. I get 90's on TP1, 3 and 5 on my HR20. I figure one of those is Indy, one is Chicago, and I have no idea what the third one is.

John C.

dishrich

12-17-06, 07:03 PM

I'm not exactly sure which transponder is Chicago.

OK, this is how you find out...

Tune your receiver to one of the MPEG4 Chicago locals
Leave on this channel & go into your signal meter menu
The x-ponder/sat that comes up should be the one that they are on (assuming these receivers work the same as most other current D* ones do)

You can do this for ANY channel & the receiver will tell you the x-ponder that given channel is on. ;) ;)

rrrick8

12-18-06, 09:56 AM

OK, this is how you find out...

Tune your receiver to one of the MPEG4 Chicago locals
Leave on this channel & go into your signal meter menu
The x-ponder/sat that comes up should be the one that they are on (assuming these receivers work the same as most other current D* ones do)

You can do this for ANY channel & the receiver will tell you the x-ponder that given channel is on. ;) ;)

Not with the H20. It defaults to the 101 transponder 1 whenever you go to the signal meter.

dishrich

12-18-06, 10:37 AM

Not with the H20. It defaults to the 101 transponder 1 whenever you go to the signal meter.

Great, shoots THAT idea to hell (that's why I said should ...)

Laddy

12-18-06, 03:42 PM

The ice storm destroyed my antenna array and what remains is suspended in air only by the attached coax cable. I'm still picking up all the HD signals as long as it isn't windy and blowing the antennas around. My question is this: when and if WCIA HD goes online what channel will they be broadcasting on? Will they still be on 3 or will they be on a UHF frequency? Aren't all the VHF frequencies closed as of 2009? I don't want to have to put up a VHF style antenna if one isn't going to be necessary in the future. I'm 38 miles from the WCIA tower and 20 or less miles from the Springfield and Decatur towers. One UHF antenna covers the Springfield stations and another the Decatur stations. So I need to know whether to put up another UHF antenna for WCIA and WILL or whether a VHF will be required. I have D*sh so I can get the analogs just fine without an OTA antenna. Thanks in advance.

mraub

12-18-06, 04:03 PM

WCIA will start out broadcasting on channel 48 (where they are now). I thought I had heard that they wanted channel 3 back after analog is shut down. I can't recall where I heard that just now. Maybe someone else will chime in with more definitive information or you can contact the station.

FeeFi

12-18-06, 04:04 PM

My understanding is that Will-DT is and will be broadcast on VHF 9 and that WCIA will be broadcasting on 48 UHF. But, and there is always a but, WCIA has asked permission to go back to a VHF channel after 2009.

Laddy

12-18-06, 04:09 PM

Thanks for the info. I'm outside WCIA-HD's footprint at the current time and won't be inside it until they go to full power so I had no idea on what frequency they were broadcasting their HD signal. Looks like I go with the UHF until they get permission and do a changeback to VHF after 2009. I guess I mistakenly thought the FCC was confiscating the VHF frequencies and were forcing all OTA TV transmissions to the UHF spectrum.

mraub

12-18-06, 05:10 PM

If WCIA does go back to VHF they'll certainly have to buy a new antenna cut to whatever VHF frequency they get. Will they also have to buy a new transmitter? As much trouble as Nexstar has had coming up with the money to do HD transitions, I wonder why they'd choose a return to VHF, which is going to cost them at least some additional money.

It looks like the tower crew is going to have at least 2 more good days this week to continue their work. After they finish putting in the reinforcement pieces, I'd guess the next step would to run the transmission line to the new antenna.

ozark

12-18-06, 06:20 PM

OK, I DO think something might be wrong with these Sony tuners... :eek: :mad:
I got up today & I decided to let my TV do a complete initial channel scan, which totally wipes out ALL existing digital/analog channels & reprograms from scratch. So, after it finished up, the ONLY channels that were in the tuner were WILL Create & WEIU!

Now, BEFORE I started entering in your numbers that you kindly provided, I went through the show/hide function on the TV, so that I could see if when the TV went through it's auto-prog function, if it had added ANY of the missing digital channels in each of the single channel# ranges. (for example, the TV did NOT add ANYTHING on ch 100.xx) So I then picked a digital channel# at random & entered it manually - like 100.77. AFTER I did this, I did NOT get a picture, BUT then I went back into the show/hide menu, & ALL 3 of these subchannels on your list were NOW magically listed as shown channels! :eek:
So, I did this procedure several more times on EVERY channel that did NOT come up as a digital "bouquet" - again in EVERY instance, ALL of the digitals in that same bouquet now appeared on the list to show/hide. Note that when you do this, the TV makes ALL of the subchannels in the bouquet SHOWN, even if they are encrypted/blank - you'll have to go back & hide the ones that do NOT have anything on them, but at least now you CAN find the viewable ones.

Now, I have to confess - on the WRSP-HD, I cheated. I went somewhere with an HD-DVR & Sony HD TV & found the frequency that it's being sent on, via the "secret" diagnostic screen of the DVR. I never even stopped to consider that Insight was using ch 69 for any digital service. (since it is in the middle of their analog channel lineup) FYI - I did the same above procedure on the TV on ch 41 & it has no digital service on it at this time) But AGAIN, the question I have is - why the hell didn't the Sony find the digitals on ch 69 in the first place, especially since it IS in the clear? :(

Evidently, these Sony tuners seem to have a hard time finding ALL of the digital channels that it really SHOULD be finding automatically - but then OTOH, I wonder if Insight recently DID do something to these channels, to make these TV's "miss" finding them in a channel scan. Either way, this is a mess that I am concerned about, especially as more & more people buy QAM tuner TV's. :eek: :confused:

OK, so here is a comprehensive list of all of the clear QAM Insight channels in Springfield/Decatur/Lincoln systems, in QAM channel order: (subject to Insight changing them, of course)

WRSP-HD FOX 69.3
Toon Disney 82.5
WSEC-HD PBS 100.2
WAND-HD NBC 100.3
WSEC Create 100.5
SoapNet 110.5
WILL-HD PBS 117.3
WAND Weather 118.4
WICS-HD ABC 119.2
The Tube 119.4
WEIU-PBS Charleston 127.9
WILL Create 127.55
WBUI-HD CW 128.1
Well I think the sony tuner doe's have a problem, as I have a sony KDL40XBR2 and it will not pick up the local HD channels on my insight classic cable here in champaign. It doe's however pick up all the digital music channels and The Cw channel which is 90.3 but not the local HD channels. I also have a Hitachi plasma 42HDT52A that will pick up all of the local HD channels with no problem. If anybody in champaign has the KDL40XBR2 and can get the local HD channels from insight please let me know. Thanks

Cap'n Preshoot

12-18-06, 10:08 PM

Here's a direct link to the WCIA tower story to which Gilbert was referring.

http://extranet.wcia.com/wcfn/news/HiDef.htm

Brrrrrrrrr......, now I remember why we left the Midwest 25 yrs ago.

JD23

12-20-06, 10:55 AM

Read my post above on how you now might be able to find all those channels - since it appears Insight is NOT encrypting these channels after all, my procedure above should work over in Champaign, too. :) ;)

Thanks for the help. When I get back to Champaign, I will try your procedure to see if I can receive the HD stations in Champaign. I really wish that Sony would have created a QAM tuner that has a properly functioning search operation, instead of forcing customers to discover a hack.

sebenste

12-20-06, 02:59 PM

Cap'n Preshoot

12-20-06, 08:57 PM

They backed off on that, however. WCIA's digital will stay on 48.

Is that to in any way imply that Ch. 3 will at some point go off the air? I would think with propagation charactistics being what they are that they would want to stay on VHF and put their digital there. Of course the expensethey're going to in beefing up the tower and the new feedline, etc would seem to suggest UHF is ultimately where they want to be.

I also thought (perhaps wrongly) that the UHF spectrum was on loan for the purpose of the DT upgrades and at some point one or the other would have to be relinquished. Did I miss something somewhere?

dishrich

12-21-06, 01:18 PM

I would think with propagation charactistics being what they are that they would want to stay on VHF and put their digital there.

Except the problem with that is, electrical interfearance that is pervasive on the low-band VHF stations, will tend to counteract against the propagation. That is why for digital transmission on the outskirts of the area, UHF (or even VHF high-band) will most likely outperform stuff on the low-band.

But one of the reasons why WCIA probably wanted to go BACK to ch 3, is because it takes a lot less electricity to run on VHF, than on UHF, for the same amount of coverage area. And we all know how cheap Nexstar is... :rolleyes:

Cap'n Preshoot

12-21-06, 09:18 PM

Except the problem with that is, electrical interfearance that is pervasive on the low-band VHF stations, will tend to counteract against the propagation. That is why for digital transmission on the outskirts of the area, UHF (or even VHF high-band) will most likely outperform stuff on the low-band.

Ahhhh. Sure, makes perfect sense, You have to forgive me, it's been a while since I've lived outside the mainstream of the culture. I'm originally from Danville, just snooping the regional groups to see what my elderly parents (still in D'ville) are in store for before buying their first HD set.

It's hard to identify with the "I" word (interference) when you live practically in the near-field of 12 stations w/7 of those in HD. Unfortunately, with the exception of FOX, CW and PBS most of the others are serving up "HD-Lite" as the only fare. Multicasting here is really pervasive and destroying the PQ with macroblocking. Since it appears there's corporate ownership of WCIA I guess multicasting will become the norm there as well.

By the way, the progress blog of the WCIA upgrade is a very interesting read.

mkjnovak

12-22-06, 03:29 AM

They backed off on that, however. WCIA's digital will stay on 48.
That would be excellent. Can you cite a source on that?
Mike

nmatese

12-27-06, 02:38 AM

Does anyone know if there is HDTV OTA in Charleston? All the previous posts were from last year.

sebenste

12-27-06, 03:31 AM

That would be excellent. Can you cite a source on that?
Mike

Sure! Head to http://www.fcc.gov/dtv

The October 20, 2006 post (2nd one in the list) contains the proposed FCC final allotment of DTV channel allotment. Now, there is still a small window of time (through January) for stations that have DTV channels on 2-6 to get off those channels and go to channels 7-51, so it's not absolutely in concrete with those. But everything else is. Check out and download Appendix B for the complete list.

mrmopar5287

12-28-06, 12:14 AM

Living in Bloomington, WYZZ Fox is the only digital signal that I get with my indoor rabbit ears/UHF loop. Restrictions from my landlord prevent me from erecting an outdoor antenna, so I doubt I'll get any HDTV feeds except for Fox.

Dr_EluSivE

12-28-06, 09:24 PM

mrmopar5287

12-28-06, 10:31 PM

This might apply to you.

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/News_Releases/1998/nrcb8023.html

Dr.

Thank you for the suggestion. Sadly, those regulations do not apply to me. I do not have exclusive use over any part of the property outside the walls of my apartment. No balcony, no patio.

mkjnovak

12-30-06, 01:54 PM

Sure!...The October 20, 2006 post (2nd one in the list) contains the proposed FCC final allotment of DTV channel...
Thanks! My info was out of date. I knew of the third round but nothing newer.
Mike

Stevenage

12-31-06, 08:21 PM

WAND is letting us down tonight. No HD on the Bears game. WTF?

mrmopar5287

12-31-06, 08:30 PM

WAND is letting us down tonight. No HD on the Bears game. WTF?

You beat me to it. Are there any WAND engineers reading this forum? No one answered the phone at the station (not surprising on New Years Eve). Maybe just a satellite feed that needs to be switched? I can't believe that NBC would not have their prime-time game in HD.

Stevenage

12-31-06, 08:56 PM

You beat me to it. Are there any WAND engineers reading this forum? No one answered the phone at the station (not surprising on New Years Eve). Maybe just a satellite feed that needs to be switched? I can't believe that NBC would not have their prime-time game in HD.

It's up! They must have got my faxes LOL Computer off :D

heavyharmonies

12-31-06, 09:04 PM

It's up! They must have got my faxes LOL Computer off :D

???

Not seeing any HD here...

Edit: Ok, now after the commercial break it came back in HD... go figure.

mrmopar5287

12-31-06, 09:57 PM

I fired of an email to the General Manager of WAND, Michael Johnston. Got a reply from his Blackberry. He said they were having problems with the HDTV feed, and expected to have it working by halftime. But it was on less than 5 minutes after my email was sent. Likely someone in the broadcasting booth at WAND forgot to cut in the HDTV feed, and got a phone call from the GM telling him to get it fixed ASAP.

gators96

01-01-07, 01:26 PM

Now we don't have the Capital One Bowl in HD on ABC. Somebody must be sleeping.

Laddy

01-01-07, 02:09 PM

What's tiresome is having to email or call in the first place. I used to last year but now I just don't bother. I don't understand how engineering cannot be monitoring what goes out over the air. Wouldn't there only be two streams, one analog and the other HD digital to monitor. Do the engineers have other responsibilities that take them away from the control room? Aren't there any work penalties for not monitoring and paying attention. I'd be irritated to have to deal with issues like this over the weekend and on holidays when they seem to occur because someone isn't doing their job at work.

gators96

01-01-07, 02:15 PM

I called WICD and left a message with engineering dept. I am sure nobody is probably in today because of the holiday. I am really going to be upset if the Rose Bowl is not in HD because someone didn't do their job properly

llueveYescampa

01-01-07, 03:10 PM

WCID. They just fix it!!!

Vitale'sFakeEye

01-01-07, 03:19 PM

llueve,

I love your post. LOL. Welcome to America my friend.

I called WICD news department earlier and told them that they should do a story on the incompetence of their engineering department. I later told the person I was joking but pass along to the engineers, that if something is wrong with the HD, put a scrolling message on the bottom of the screen so others know either something is wrong or someone is asleep.

gators96

01-01-07, 04:08 PM

Hey someone finally awoke from their nap. I like naps as much as the next guy, but not while I am working. At least they turned the HD on before the Rose Bowl.

Vitale'sFakeEye

01-01-07, 04:44 PM

Hmmm, Rose Bowl pre-game not in HD? Please, don't tell me someone is taking another nap. Not looking good for you WICD.

Vitale'sFakeEye

01-01-07, 05:20 PM

Game on and in HD! Thanks WICD

rrrick8

01-02-07, 09:45 AM

I've noticed since yesterday that 15-2 is normal ABC/WICD coverage. No "Tube".

Anyone have any inside info on this. Is it temporary or what?

dishrich

01-02-07, 10:25 AM

I've noticed since yesterday that 15-2 is normal ABC/WICD coverage. No "Tube".

I don't know, but we are ALSO missing it on WICS 20-2, (20-2 does NOT even exist according to a couple HD tuners I tried) AND it's completely missing from the prog guide on the Insight digital lineup as well. :confused: :rolleyes:

Anonymous Coward

01-02-07, 11:40 AM

I've noticed since yesterday that 15-2 is normal ABC/WICD coverage. No "Tube".

Anyone have any inside info on this. Is it temporary or what?

From the Wiki page for The Tube:

On March 23, 2006, Sinclair Broadcasting announced they would start multicasting The Tube on many of their outlets in the summer of 2006 as well. [2]. That relationship abruptly ended on January 1, 2007. It is unclear if this is a negotiating ploy by Sinclair or a true termination of the contract. In Baltimore, a slide indicating "contractual issues" has replaced The Tube on WNUV-DT2.

BuffaloBill

01-02-07, 01:03 PM

http://www.wcia.com/highdef.asp

Saying they'll have HD for the SuperBowl if things go as scheduled. I'm standing by my original prediction of HD for March Madness, but won't complain if I'm pleasantly surprised!

heavyharmonies

01-02-07, 01:23 PM

mrmopar5287

01-02-07, 06:20 PM

February 2008...

The page said "by February", but again that might be optimistic given the history of WCIA moving to HDTV.

I'm most obviously disappointed that WCIA isn't even passing CBS HDTV feeds through the cable system. I can understand them lacking a transmitter to have OTA HDTV, but at least I figured it would be on cable.

dishrich

01-03-07, 10:18 AM

I'm most obviously disappointed that WCIA isn't even passing CBS HDTV feeds through the cable system. I can understand them lacking a transmitter to have OTA HDTV, but at least I figured it would be on cable.

How would you suggest cable systems ALL the way over here in Springfield get it w/out it actually being "on-air". To do this would obviously require a direct feed (presumably fiber) from Champaign to Insight's headend here in Springfield. While I'm NOT saying it couldn't be done, I GUARANTEE you Insight won't pay the freight on that, NOR will WCIA, since (eventually) it WILL be up & then that would be an unnecessary expense. (and you should ALREADY know how cheap Nexstar is! :eek: )

sebenste

01-03-07, 10:27 AM

I've noticed since yesterday that 15-2 is normal ABC/WICD coverage. No "Tube".

Anyone have any inside info on this. Is it temporary or what?

Yes, I do have info (not insider). As of 1/1/07, for each subchannel you have, you must have 3 hours of kids programs per week. You can put them on your main (.1) channel, but regardless, you must have them. And, you must have EAS alerts on each subchannel as well. Both are expensive to do, and so subchannels have been dropping like flies on 12/31 and 1/1/06 nationwide.

The Tube is the biggest victim so far by far, but weather subchannels are also feeling the wrath.

heavyharmonies

01-03-07, 11:35 AM

Yes, I do have info (not insider). As of 1/1/07, for each subchannel you have, you must have 3 hours of kids programs per week.

Are you serious?

Who is the insipid twit that came up with this bondoggle?

sebenste

01-03-07, 01:43 PM

Are you serious?

Who is the insipid twit that came up with this bondoggle?

Three letters: FCC. Broadcasters objected because they argued it would be too much of a burden on them and would discourage them from providing additional programming. FCC said no it wouldn't.

We know who is right now. Quad Cities lost 6-2's weather channel, Chicago lost 38-5 (TLN), Madison and Milwaukee went down The Tube. Kids shows showed up on WGN-DT's 9-2 The Tube on Sunday morning. They probably have a ton of cheap or free kids programs to show, so for them, it was no big deal.

Anonymous Coward

01-03-07, 07:17 PM

Well I think the sony tuner doe's have a problem, as I have a sony KDL40XBR2 and it will not pick up the local HD channels on my insight classic cable here in champaign. It doe's however pick up all the digital music channels and The Cw channel which is 90.3 but not the local HD channels. I also have a Hitachi plasma 42HDT52A that will pick up all of the local HD channels with no problem. If anybody in champaign has the KDL40XBR2 and can get the local HD channels from insight please let me know. Thanks

Sony KDL-40V2500 here and just hooked up Insight Basic in Urbana.

Along with the music channels, the digital auto scan found the following:

77.2 WEIU
77.4 FOX
82.3 (unknown movie channel)
82.4 (unknown movie channel)
90.3 CW
111.5 Toon Disney
111.6 MTV2

It didn't find any CBS, NBC, ABC, or WILL PBS channels. I couldn't find these myself.

Can you find out from the Hitachi what digital channels the locals are coming in on?

Anyone else know?

Cap'n Preshoot

01-03-07, 08:41 PM

Three letters: FCC. Broadcasters objected because they argued it would be too much of a burden on them and would discourage them from providing additional programming. FCC said no it wouldn't.

We know who is right now. Quad Cities lost 6-2's weather channel, Chicago lost 38-5 (TLN), Madison and Milwaukee went down The Tube. Kids shows showed up on WGN-DT's 9-2 The Tube on Sunday morning. They probably have a ton of cheap or free kids programs to show, so for them, it was no big deal.
In the Houston, TX market (Top 10) the multicasting was robbing so much bandwidth from the main channel that viewers began bombarding one of the local network affiliates (NBC) with complaints about macroblocking during HD sports broadcasts, especially football. Unless they filter the nulls, any multicasting that leaves the main channel with less than 16 Mbps (and a 1st generation codec) shows up on the viewer's set as macroblocking during the 1st second or so of certain scene transitions and on closeups of rapid motion, i.e., football.

So from that perspective anything that discourages multicasting is sometimes a good thing. In ref to the loss of a Wx or a doppler radar channel, I realize that y'all are in Tornado Alley, but is the Wx and radar something that's not also available from multiple online sources?

mrmopar5287

01-03-07, 11:15 PM

In the Houston, TX market (Top 10) the multicasting was robbing so much bandwidth from the main channel that viewers began bombarding one of the local network affiliates (NBC) with complaints about macroblocking during HD sports broadcasts, especially football. Unless they filter the nulls, any multicasting that leaves the main channel with less than 16 Mbps (and a 1st generation codec) shows up on the viewer's set as macroblocking during the 1st second or so of certain scene transitions and on closeups of rapid motion, i.e., football.

Just by accident, I noticed that my local PBS station (WILL) was actually decreasing the resolution of their HD picture in order to fit more multicasting data into their bandwidth. The local PBS has 3 subchannels, one HDTV and two SDTV that run 24/7. The HDTV feed is just repeats of the High Definition stuff that they have created, subchannel 2 is the regular PBS programming, and subchannel 3 is cooking and craftwork all the time.

My TV set has a menu option that lists a bunch of specs on the screen, for the situations that you might need to relay something to a technician on the phone. It shows the resolution of the picture. PBS has their HDTV feed at 1080i, but the menu screen lists it as 1440x1080 interlaced.

My guess (and a wild one at that) is that at least this one PBS station is down-converting the 1920 horizontal resolution to 1440, shaving off 480 horizontal pixels in each line for usage as other bandwidth. Seeing as how not many people have 1080p capable TV sets, there likely isn't any noticeable loss in picture quality when the horizontal resolution is downgraded - because it's likely being shown on a 1280x720 screen. 480x1080x30=259,200 pixels per second to be used in other subchannel programming.

So from that perspective anything that discourages multicasting is sometimes a good thing. In ref to the loss of a Wx or a doppler radar channel, I realize that y'all are in Tornado Alley, but is the Wx and radar something that's not also available from multiple online sources?

In response to that, the doppler radar displays on local stations likely don't contribute to macroblocking on the main HDTV feed. With mostly static images, and (AM quality) voice overs reading the weather for my local NBC affiliate coverage area, the bandwidth usage is probably less than two or three percent of the total digital feed.

Sure, the doppler radar can be looked up via the internet, but it's easier to flip the channel while watching TV than to have to take the time and effort to look up the same info with a computer. Not that I'm lazy, but it would take a few minutes to boot, log in, open the web browser, and then look at the online doppler radar. Either that, or maybe the wife is busy with the computer. Either way, I can flip to the NBC subchannel, give the radar a glance, and then be back to "regularly scheduled programming" in about 5 seconds.

sebenste

01-03-07, 11:20 PM

So from that perspective anything that discourages multicasting is sometimes a good thing. In ref to the loss of a Wx or a doppler radar channel, I realize that y'all are in Tornado Alley, but is the Wx and radar something that's not also available from multiple online sources?

This is an interesting turn of events in the digital OTA community. Purists are heralding restored bandwidth, while others say it discourages choice, as I do, and those people, myself included, have certainly been proven right here.

As for the weather subchannels, sure, we have plenty of online sources, but I don't want to turn on the computer during a storm when the TV is already going
(and really, that's not the best idea either). But as it is approaching, I don't have to go anywhere except hit X-2, or whatever a weather subchannel is.

mkjnovak

01-04-07, 01:34 AM

The HDTV feed is just repeats of the High Definition stuff that they have created
This really isn't accurate at all. 12.1 is the PBS HD channel. It's national, not WILL-created. WILL may occasionally carry the SD downconversion of the same program, but there are plenty of shows exclusive to the HD channel. Note that many shows debut on both feeds at once when new.

Note also that the programs do originate from all sorts of locations, including Boston, Chicago, Austin, and San Francisco PBS stations to name a few.

Mike

Cap'n Preshoot

01-04-07, 07:29 AM

This is an interesting turn of events in the digital OTA community. Purists are heralding restored bandwidth, while others say it discourages choice, as I do, and those people, myself included, have certainly been proven right here.
Well, count me among the purists. Interesting that none of the few remaining O&Os run multicasting because the network knows that the bit robbing degrades the quality of the product. Interesting too that FOX delivers their network feed to their affiliates as a 16~17 Mbps stream ready for air. Is FOX doing any multicasting anywhere? Not to my knowledge.

As for the weather subchannels, sure, we have plenty of online sources, but I don't want to turn on the computer during a storm when the TV is already going
(and really, that's not the best idea either). But as it is approaching, I don't have to go anywhere except hit X-2, or whatever a weather subchannel is.
But does every station in the local area need to compete for this audience with their own doppler? Prior to 1/1/07 three stations here had some variant of "their own" radar channel, apparently just because they could. Also, is this doppler sub-channel not something that could be called up dynamically when storms are approaching?

I recall reading something a few months ago about the availability of a type of dynamic or rather intelligent encoder which had the ability to reassign bandwidth on-the-fly to the main channel when needs dictate, such as during a major sporting event. Lets face it, sports was made for HD (or perhaps vice-versa) and any compromise in PQ for the sake of subordinate programming runs the risk of infuriating the very audience those $2 megabuck ad spots are trying to reach.

No, we don't need 19+ Mbps of bandwidth for talking heads, drama or the soaps and sitcoms, but action sports is whole other matter.

Similarly I do not see MPEG-4 as the answer either. That dog won't hunt. So far the MPEG-4 locals from D* look horrible (compared to OTA) and D* is all set to bring us a whole bevy of "new" HD channels later this year via the same medium. If so, they better figure out how to improve the PQ because I don't think HD-Lite is going to be very popular with folks who are buying the big displays.

ozark

01-04-07, 02:36 PM

Sony KDL-40V2500 here and just hooked up Insight Basic in Urbana.

Along with the music channels, the digital auto scan found the following:

77.2 WEIU
77.4 FOX
82.3 (unknown movie channel)
82.4 (unknown movie channel)
90.3 CW
111.5 Toon Disney
111.6 MTV2

It didn't find any CBS, NBC, ABC, or WILL PBS channels. I couldn't find these myself.

Can you find out from the Hitachi what digital channels the locals are coming in on?

Anyone else know?

Well on my Hitachi the local insight cable HD channels are on:
12.1 WILL
12.2 WILL
12.3 WILL
15.1 WICD (abc)
17.1 WAND (nbc)
17.2 WAND (weather)
27.1 WCCU (fox)
27.2 WCCU (fox)
Plus the ones that you quoted, but on my sony KDL40XBR lcd it will not pick up the local HD other then the CW network on 90.3 and all of the digital music channels so I think this sony QAM tuner has a problem picking up those channels for some reason. If anybody has this same TV and has insight cable here in champaign and can get the local HD channels without a cable box please let me know. Thanks

sebenste

01-04-07, 02:42 PM

Well, count me among the purists. Interesting that none of the few remaining O&Os run multicasting because the network knows that the bit robbing degrades the quality of the product. Interesting too that FOX delivers their network feed to their affiliates as a 16~17 Mbps stream ready for air. Is FOX doing any multicasting anywhere? Not to my knowledge.

But does every station in the local area need to compete for this audience with their own doppler? Prior to 1/1/07 three stations here had some variant of "their own" radar channel, apparently just because they could. Also, is this doppler sub-channel not something that could be called up dynamically when storms are approaching?

I recall reading something a few months ago about the availability of a type of dynamic or rather intelligent encoder which had the ability to reassign bandwidth on-the-fly to the main channel when needs dictate, such as during a major sporting event. Lets face it, sports was made for HD (or perhaps vice-versa) and any compromise in PQ for the sake of subordinate programming runs the risk of infuriating the very audience those $2 megabuck ad spots are trying to reach.

No, we don't need 19+ Mbps of bandwidth for talking heads, drama or the soaps and sitcoms, but action sports is whole other matter.

Similarly I do not see MPEG-4 as the answer either. That dog won't hunt. So far the MPEG-4 locals from D* look horrible (compared to OTA) and D* is all set to bring us a whole bevy of "new" HD channels later this year via the same medium. If so, they better figure out how to improve the PQ because I don't think HD-Lite is going to be very popular with folks who are buying the big displays.

FOX Bloomington is, but none of the owned and operated stations are. Madison, WI was but they yanked The Tube from there. I don't know if WYZZ is still multicasting or not.

Why not have every station compete with their own doppler? It only helps the viewer. But yes, if you do a dynamic allocation and prioritize the main channel to get the bits, you should have no problem. WLS-DT (ABC) in Chicago has two subs. The main is unaffected and 7.2 and 7.3 get bit starved when 7.1 needs it.
So far, even that hasn't caused any real problems with 7.2 and 7.3. Dynamic allocation of data is definitely the way to go. To me, that's the real answer.

Anonymous Coward

01-04-07, 03:06 PM

Well on my Hitachi the local insight cable HD channels are on:
12.1 WILL
12.2 WILL
12.3 WILL
15.1 WICD (abc)
17.1 WAND (nbc)
17.2 WAND (weather)
27.1 WCCU (fox)
27.2 WCCU (fox)
Plus the ones that you quoted, but on my sony KDL40XBR lcd it will not pick up the local HD other then the CW network on 90.3 and all of the digital music channels so I think this sony QAM tuner has a problem picking up those channels for some reason. If anybody has this same TV and has insight cable here in champaign and can get the local HD channels without a cable box please let me know. Thanks

Well that's interesting... I just assumed they would have reassigned the locals to channels different than the broadcast ones (noting the differences posted by dishrich for the Springfield headend). I'll have to try those tonight, although my Sony QAM tuner certainly isn't picking those up on an autoscan. Thanks for replying to my post. :cool:

Cap'n Preshoot

01-04-07, 06:57 PM

FOX Bloomington is, but none of the owned and operated stations are.
What do the O&Os know that the corporate owners don't? The corporate owned stations know full well that bit robbing affects the product but seemingly don't care. They're more interested in selling advertising, even at dirt cheap rates, so multicasting to them translates into revenue, however miniscule.

Locally "The Tube" is carried in the stream by the CW affiliate (KHCW) but they have fairly new gear and a station engineer who is 'digital-fluent', so their PQ on their main channel (at 14.5 Mbps) has been informally voted best in the whole metro area, in spite of multicasting The Tube on 38-2.

Anonymous Coward

01-04-07, 08:20 PM

Well on my Hitachi the local insight cable HD channels are on:
12.1 WILL
12.2 WILL
12.3 WILL
15.1 WICD (abc)
17.1 WAND (nbc)
17.2 WAND (weather)
27.1 WCCU (fox)
27.2 WCCU (fox)
Plus the ones that you quoted, but on my sony KDL40XBR lcd it will not pick up the local HD other then the CW network on 90.3 and all of the digital music channels so I think this sony QAM tuner has a problem picking up those channels for some reason. If anybody has this same TV and has insight cable here in champaign and can get the local HD channels without a cable box please let me know. Thanks

Just tried these channels on my Sony KDL-40V2500.

The set cannot tune any of the channels when entered directly with the remote. Nor does the dishrich procedure for trying to make them appear in the show/hide list seem to work.

Hopefully someone will find a way to make one of these Sony sets work in Champaign-Urbana. :(

Anonymous Coward

01-04-07, 10:54 PM

Just tried these channels on my Sony KDL-40V2500.

The set cannot tune any of the channels when entered directly with the remote. Nor does the dishrich procedure for trying to make them appear in the show/hide list seem to work.

Hopefully someone will find a way to make one of these Sony sets work in Champaign-Urbana. :(

Someone was kind enough to have just sent me the channel list.

For Insight Basic/Classic QAM clear digitals in Urbana-Champaign:

73.3 FOX WCCU HD
73.4 NBC WAND Doppler
73.5 NBC WAND HD
74.3 ABC WICD HD
74.5 PBS WILL Create
74.49 PBS WILL HD

90.4 CBS WCIA HD (added 1/19/2007)

For the above on the Sony QAM tuner I needed to use dishrich's procedure (thanks for that, BTW) to pull them down. Autoscan didn't find them. Simply type in 73.x (I used 73.1), let it try to tune, and then go to the show/hide menu on the TV, and the whole bouquet will be listed for 73. Do the same for 74.

The autoscan on my Sony tuner picked up the following additional QAM clear channels:

77.2 PBS WEIU
77.4 FOX WCCU (no hd)
82.3 movie channel
82.4 movie channel
90.3 CW HD
111.5 Toon Disney
111.6 MTV2

...as well as the digital music channels.

ozark

01-05-07, 02:02 PM

Someone was kind enough to have just sent me the channel list.

For Insight Basic/Classic QAM clear digitals in Urbana-Champaign:

73.3 FOX WCCU HD
73.4 NBC WAND Doppler
73.5 NBC WAND HD
74.3 ABC WICD HD
74.5 PBS WILL Create
74.49 PBS WILL HD

For the above on the Sony QAM tuner I needed to use dishrich's procedure (thanks for that, BTW) to pull them down. Autoscan didn't find them. Simply type in 73.x (I used 73.1), let it try to tune, and then go to the show/hide menu on the TV, and the whole bouquet will be listed for 73. Do the same for 74.

The autoscan on my Sony tuner picked up the following additional QAM clear channels:

77.2 PBS WEIU
77.4 FOX WCCU (no hd)
82.3 movie channel
82.4 movie channel
90.3 CW HD
111.5 Toon Disney
111.6 MTV2

...as well as the digital music channels.

IT WORKS :) :) thankyou very much, I haven't used my Hitachi plasma in over a month which has a nice network logo burned into the screen, so apparently insight reassigned the local HD channels. Also channel 82.3 is indemand pay per view which I'm sure will disappear soon!

Anonymous Coward

01-05-07, 03:10 PM

apparently insight reassigned the local HD channels.

This actually bothers me a bit that the local HD clear channel locations are not apparently documented anywhere publicly available to Insight customers. The basic service analog channel locations are documented, so why not the digital clear ones available on the basic service? It makes me wonder that since basic service is regulated by the Champaign Urbana Cable Commission, if they could require Insight to document those channel locations as part of the franchise agreement.

I wouldn't have normally considered it, but the autoscan failure of these Sonys makes me think that autoscan should not be a requirement to find these clear digitals. Their location should be documented by Insight. I am sure they would prefer not to, and the only reason they are getting away with it is that very few folks are probably aware of or asking about the QAM clear digitals over basic/classic.

Even when I called their customer service and even emailed Mr. Art Svymbersky directly, they both told me that I would need one of their boxes or cablecards to pull down the HD locals. That is even when I very specifically asked if they broadcast HD locals in the clear and if they would be picked up with a QAM tuner.

At best, that is ignorance of their own offerings, at worst, deliberately misleading to get folks to pony up more cash for HD locals from them.

sebenste

01-05-07, 03:18 PM

http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2007/01/05/mediacom_viewers_could_lose_abc_shows_at_midnight

mrmopar5287

01-05-07, 03:52 PM

http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2007/01/05/mediacom_viewers_could_lose_abc_shows_at_midnight

Yeah, Sinclair is doing the same thing with WYZZ FOX for Bloomington/Normal Mediacom subscribers. And also a bunch of their other stations in Mediacom subscriber areas across the country.

Not once has either side come out and given real dollar figures for the deals that are proposed. Makes me curious, because I'd like to see some numbers to compare whether Sinclair is asking too much or if Mediacom is being cheap.

Cap'n Preshoot

01-05-07, 06:52 PM

Yeah, Sinclair is doing the same thing with WYZZ FOX for Bloomington/Normal Mediacom subscribers. And also a bunch of their other stations in Mediacom subscriber areas across the country.

Not once has either side come out and given real dollar figures for the deals that are proposed. Makes me curious, because I'd like to see some numbers to compare whether Sinclair is asking too much or if Mediacom is being cheap.
For what it's worth, Time Warner Cable got into a similar pissing match here in Houston about 5 or so years ago and actually pulled the local ABC affiliate and The Disney Channel off their system. Both channels stayed off cable for several days.

Meanwhile, the local broadcaster (KTRK Ch 13) was offering viewers free OTA antennas (Rabbit ears) and as you can probably imagine satellite subscriptions to both E* and D* soared, literally overnight.

One TWC local execu-droid, when interviewed a few weeks later on one of the local access channels, estimated they lost between 1500 and 2000 subscribers as a result of the decision to pull ABC and summed it up rather succinctly when he said, "It was a bad decision and we misperceived the existential risk!"

Naturally TWC's rates went up the flwg year, as they seemingly do anyway.

rrrick8

01-05-07, 08:41 PM

Just in case there was any doubt at all, I just received an e-mail from WICD saying "The Tube" is dead. It will not return. :(

mrmopar5287

01-05-07, 08:57 PM

Meanwhile, the local broadcaster (KTRK Ch 13) was offering viewers free OTA antennas (Rabbit ears) and as you can probably imagine satellite subscriptions to both E* and D* soared, literally overnight.

Long story short, Mediacom cable filed an Antitrust lawsuit against Sinclair in 2006 - claiming that Sinclair insists on blanket carriage of Sinclair stations at all Mediacom cable companies where Sinclair operates a TV station regardless of market differences. I guess the response to this lawsuit was that Sinclair made new demands of Mediacom in their agreements to carry local stations. Mediacom is portraying this as a huge price increase (without listing dollar amounts) and Sinclair is spinning it by noting that other cable providers (Insight, also DirecTV and DISH) have all reached agreements without whining about money. This is happening all over the country, so after December 5th the following Sinclair owned stations will go off the air from Mediacom cable: KDSM in Des Moines; KGAN in Cedar Rapids; WEAR and WFGX in Mobile-Pensacola; WYZZ in Peoria/Bloomington; WLOS and WMYA in the Greenville, South Carolina market; WDKY in Lexington; WMSN in Madison; WZTV, WUXP, and WNAB in Nashville; WUCW in Minneapolis; KBSI and WDKA in Paducah/Cape Girardeau; WICD and WICS in Champaign/Springfield, Illinois; KDNL in St. Louis; WTWC in Tallahassee; WTTO and WABM in Birmingham; WTVZ in Norfolk, and WVTV and WCGV in Milwaukee.

So Mediacom subscribers will loose a lot of programming, and Sinclair will loose a lot of viewers. It's a big pissing match, and I don't know who will quit first. Right now WYZZ is handing out free rabbit ears to any takers, and they're also funding $100 rebates ($10 per month for 10 months) to new DirecTV subscribers.

Cap'n Preshoot

01-05-07, 09:27 PM

Right now WYZZ is handing out free rabbit ears to any takers, and they're also funding $100 rebates ($10 per month for 10 months) to new DirecTV subscribers.
The D* rebates are likely something WYZZ arranged w/D* Marketing without it actually costing them any real out-of-pocket dollars. That's one of D*'s standard meet or beat offers that they pull out of the hat (when necessary) to sway the fence sitters away from E* and cable.

Either way it's a no-win situation for either Sinclair or Mediacom. Mediacom is about to find out how popular those channels are and what this decision will ultimately cost them.

Jhamps10

01-05-07, 11:35 PM

umm anyone who has comcast for cable and WICS-WICD or WYZZ, don't get used to ABC 15-20 too much longer either.
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6404747.html?display=Breaking+News

ok, Sincrap has gone too far now. this needs stopped now, what happened to FCC, as the stations are supposed to be a public service. Oh yeah they just destroyed every single subchannel by making them add this stupid 3 hours a week of kids programming.

mrmopar5287

01-06-07, 02:14 AM

Well, there is always two sides to every story.

I think that cable companies should pay OTA broadcasters in order to re-transmit their signal, because ultimately they're doing a service to a lot of people by providing a solid viewable picture. Over The Air reception of a lot of stations us ultimately full of static, or non-existent with digital transmissions that are not strong enough. If I pay the cable company money for a package that includes all the basic channels, then some of that subscription money ought to go to the networks that ultimately get the most viewing.

On the other hand, I'm not going to shed a single tear for any cable company out there. Ultimately they make millions in profits each year - with rates that continue to go up.

I think there are two solutions to this problem that the FCC could easily implement, and both of them involve making subscription television services truly an open market.

Step one would be for the FCC to mandate that cable companies (and satellite providers) offer ala carte pricing schemes. Let customers pick and choose channels they want to pay for, instead of having "take or or leave it" type packages. Let individual channels succeed or fail based upon the quality of their programming, and thus subscription levels. Lots of channels complain that they'd be out of business if they had to go it on their own - that's capitalism. I'm tired of nearly everything in life having to make a business case based upon some sort of subsidy. I want Discovery and the History Channel, but I don't want Disney Kids, Lifetime, Oxygen, or any Home Shopping Networks.

Step two involves the FCC letting AT&T and Verizon get into the subscription TV business like they're planning. The phone companies have spent major money upgrading their fiber optic networks for huge bandwidth, and it's making cable company executives sweat bullets to think that their customers might have other options in the future. End the cable television franchising model, and let EVERY urban area have the option of competition. Competition is good for the customer, and I'd look forward to a price war between Insight and Verizon.

Cap'n Preshoot

01-06-07, 09:51 AM

Well, there is always two sides to every story.

I think that cable companies should pay OTA broadcasters in order to re-transmit their signal, because ultimately they're doing a service to a lot of people by providing a solid viewable picture. Over The Air reception of a lot of stations us ultimately full of static, or non-existent with digital transmissions that are not strong enough. If I pay the cable company money for a package that includes all the basic channels, then some of that subscription money ought to go to the networks that ultimately get the most viewing.

Here's another viewpoint; The broadcasters are already receiving "payment" by being able to assert that they are reaching a certain number of viewers, in no small part because of such cable systems. In turn the broadcasters set their advertising rates based upon the size of this market. Were it not for the cable system(s) this market would be much smaller and hence ad revenue less. The broadcasters whose stations are carried by these cable systems are also using bandwidth, which for the cable operators is becoming a precious commodity. I can see both sides to this debate, but I think it's a push.

I know what happened here when Time Warner pulled ABC & Disney for 5 days. Cable subscribers were dropping like flies and every satellite reseller in town was suddenly swampped with orders they couldn't fill, with dishes & STBs on backorder and being trucked in from other areas. Sat installers were even coming in from Dallas, Austin and Beaumont to get in on the action.

Unlikely the same thing would happen on the same magnitude of scale or have the same degree of impact on the system operators in the smaller communities. Still I see some degree of attrition happening. I don't see how (or understand how) the cable operator can dare do this knowing that there's competition out there anxiously waiting to snap up the very customers they worked so hard to get. They're not the only game in town and customers don't care about disputes; they just want to watch TV.

rrrick8

01-06-07, 01:03 PM

I did notice this (Saturday morning) that 15-2 did have scheduled a block of kid programming ( Wildlife Jams). So the main issue appears to be the conflict with "The Tube" as opposed to the FCC mandate on children programming.

Oh well. It was good while it lasted.

sebenste

01-06-07, 01:22 PM

January 3 was the drop-dead deadline for DTV stations to be at full power. If they weren't, as FCC rules state...after analog shutdown they are only protected from interference at the power level they were at on 1/1/07. Given the situation in central Illinois, I don't think WCIA will have a problem...but if anyone wants to broadcast at full power west of Springfield, or in Terre Haute on channel 48, WCIA and WCFN and other stations across the country would have to either lower power or put up a directional antenna to protect them.

In bookoo Nebraska or Wyoming, probably not a problem. East of the Missisippi,
definitely could get interesting. Only exception is if financial hardship or severe engineering issues can be proven.

Jhamps10

01-06-07, 06:02 PM

I think that no one in TH is going to broadcast on 48. I could be wrong on this though.

jdcolombo

01-07-07, 09:47 PM

Well, there is always two sides to every story.

Step one would be for the FCC to mandate that cable companies (and satellite providers) offer ala carte pricing schemes. Let customers pick and choose channels they want to pay for, instead of having "take or or leave it" type packages. Let individual channels succeed or fail based upon the quality of their programming, and thus subscription levels. Lots of channels complain that they'd be out of business if they had to go it on their own - that's capitalism. I'm tired of nearly everything in life having to make a business case based upon some sort of subsidy. I want Discovery and the History Channel, but I don't want Disney Kids, Lifetime, Oxygen, or any Home Shopping Networks.

Step two involves the FCC letting AT&T and Verizon get into the subscription TV business like they're planning. The phone companies have spent major money upgrading their fiber optic networks for huge bandwidth, and it's making cable company executives sweat bullets to think that their customers might have other options in the future. End the cable television franchising model, and let EVERY urban area have the option of competition. Competition is good for the customer, and I'd look forward to a price war between Insight and Verizon.

I assume that you realize that an a la carte option would not necessarily mean lower prices. Package deals offer a bunch of "throw in" channels that content providers don't charge the DBS or cable services for, just to get them in customer's hands. There's no guarantee that subscribing just to Discovery and History would cost less than those two channels plus 20 others. Don't get me wrong - I completely support choice. I just want to make sure folks realize that choice does not necessarily = cheaper prices.

As for the cable competition point, I agree absolutely. Politicians seem completely befuddled by technology. They give us crap like the DMCA to go overboard to protect the content providers, and completely ignore consumers on issues like competition. Or maybe its simply that entrenched economic forces can buy more votes than new technology companies. The one hope here is that the Telco's have just as much money, if not more, as the cable companies, so they can at least compete to buy politicians on an equal footing.

John C.

sebenste

01-09-07, 05:55 PM

Found this article at:
http://www.news-gazette.com/news/2007/01/09/rural_tv_viewers_want_their_abc

Rural TV viewers want their ABC
By Tim Mitchell
Tuesday January 9, 2007

Steve Woodcock of Tolono got a surprise when he turned on his TV set on Saturday.

His cable provider, Mediacom, had replaced ABC programming from two local affiliates, WICD and WICS, with Starz Kids and Family.

A crawl at the bottom of the screen announced that the owner of the two stations, Sinclair Broadcast Group, had demanded that the ABC affiliates be removed from the cable system.

"It's not fair that Tolono can't get those ABC shows while the folks in Champaign can get them, simply because they have a different cable company," Woodcock said.

Linda Jones of Monticello was at Best Buy in Champaign on Monday to purchase some rabbit ears so she can receive WICD signals over the air.

"I don't want to miss my 'General Hospital'," she said.

Vickie Arends of Tuscola said she is upset about losing WICD.

"There are a lot of shows that we like to watch on that channel," Arends said. "I have been concerned ever since I saw that those shows are gone."

Sinclair and Mediacom have been at odds over how much the cable company should pay its television stations for the right to carry their programming.

"The Sinclair Broadcast Group, owner of WICD Channel 15, demanded that Mediacom remove that station along with its other stations from our cable systems," said Jim Carey, senior vice president of Mediacom. "We had been working hard to keep this from happening and we regret that they have taken this drastic step."

Carey said that Sinclair had allowed Mediacom to carry its stations for free until December.

"They are now demanding that we pay much more than we are paying any other broadcaster and, we believe, more than any other comparably sized cable company is paying them," he said. Sinclair Broadcast Group General Counsel Barry Faber said two parties were unable to agree on the price for allowing the cable system to carry signals from Sinclair's stations.

Faber said that the Sinclair stations can still be picked up by antenna or with a satellite dish.

"We do not think it's such a big issue since there are other places to get our channels," Faber said.

David Sanders of Rantoul said he is going to miss some of his favorite ABC shows.

"I've been watching 'Lost', 'Desperate Housewives' and 'Ugly Betty' every week," Sanders said. "It's not right for cable customers to become victims of a corporate war."

Steve Suderman, president of Good Vibes in Champaign, said the standoff between Mediacom and Sinclair has improved sales of DirecTV and Dish Network systems.

Suderman said that several Mediacom subscribers have been signing up for satellite dishes so they can get ABC programming.

"Our phones have been constantly ringing," Suderman said. "There have been way more than the usual number of inquiries. People don't like having their TV messed with. We can help you with either DirecTV, the Dish Network or with antennas."

Tim Mathis, general manager of WICD and WICS, was out of town for the week and unavailable for comment.

Mediacom provides cable television service in Arcola, Arthur, Bayles Lake, Bellflower, Bement, Camargo, Cerro Gordo, Clinton, DeLand, Fairmount, Farmer City, Fisher, Gibson City, Gifford, Hammond, Hindsboro, Ivesdale, LeRoy, Loda, Ludlow, Mahomet, Mansfield, Mattoon, Melvin, Monticello, Oakland, Paxton, Pesotum, Rantoul, Sullivan, Thomasboro, Tolono, Tuscola, Villa Grove, Watseka and Weldon.

However, not all those communities have WICD or WICS as their ABC affiliates. A few area communities served by Mediacom have WYZZ in Peoria-Bloomington as their Fox affiliate, and they lost that because it, too, is owned by Sinclair.

---

mrmopar5287

01-09-07, 06:57 PM

What surprises me is that neither company has come out and given specific dollar amounts as to what they feel is fair. I suspect that is because Sinclair probably wants some notably low figure per subscriber, but it would still cut into (ample) profits from Mediacom. It would be hard for Mediacom to justify stonewalling Sinclair over a figure like $0.25 per subscriber per month. I don't know what the exact figure is, but it makes me suspicions that these two companies continue to blame each other without providing the financial details. Even though it's sometimes a political bureau, I believe the FCC hasn't gotten involved probably because what Sinclair is asking is a reasonable amount of money.

I get my TV via antenna, so it doesn't directly affect me. But so far, I'd have to side with Sinclair because it seems that other cable companies and satellite providers have come to agreements without hassle. If Mediacom wants to stare down Sinclair to see who blinks first, I think that they will loose a lot of subscribers to satellite providers. And once people go to satellite, it's hard to get them back to cable because of early subscription termination fees, and generally better customer service than Mediacom offers in the Bloomington/Normal area.

AndyM77

01-09-07, 09:57 PM

My Grandparents (who are on fixed income) are in central Iowa and affected by this nonsensical BS. Their Fox comes from a Sinclair affiliate through Mediacom, and now they're screwed. They can't pick up via antenna due to distance, and can't go D* or E* due to cost concerns. It's an unfortunate by-product of an absolutely ridiculous issue, and I'm sure there are plenty of other fixed-income, low-income stories like it.

These companies should be ashamed of their behavior, and we can only hope they reap what they sow...

FeeFi

01-10-07, 08:20 AM

Before you get all warm and fuzzy on Sinclair, keep in mind that they were the ones that turned down legally binding arbitration that would of fixed this problem. I do think they are both at fault and that only Mediacom will lose any viewers.

mrmopar5287

01-10-07, 06:32 PM

Before you get all warm and fuzzy on Sinclair, keep in mind that they were the ones that turned down legally binding arbitration that would of fixed this problem.

I wouldn't submit to binding arbitration if I were Sinclair.

Put it this way, eventually Mediacom is going to cave and give Sinclair what they want because Mediacom will loose a good amount of subscribers if this fiasco drags on. What Sinclair stands to loose with binding arbitration is a lower price than what they are asking for. It would be a loosing situation for Sinclair to go to the arbitration and come out with less money.

So why wouldn't Sinclair stick to their guns, pull the channels from Mediacom cable, and let customer outrage help swing Mediacom into paying them the money? Mediacom rented out the Bloomington Coliseum to show the BCS Championship game for the WYZZ FOX viewers, and also someplace in Springfield for WICS ABC viewers to watch Grey's Anatomy and Ugly Betty. How long can Mediacom keep renting public accomodations for their cable subscribers rather than paying the channels to have them on the cable system? Mediacom can't keep pretending that to be a cost effective solution . . .

jjallou

01-10-07, 06:44 PM

Mediacom rented out the Bloomington Coliseum to show the BCS Championship game for the WYZZ FOX viewers, and also someplace in Springfield for WICS ABC viewers to watch Grey's Anatomy and Ugly Betty. How long can Mediacom keep renting public accomodations for their cable subscribers rather than paying the channels to have them on the cable system? Mediacom can't keep pretending that to be a cost effective solution . . .

Forgot to mention the 1000's of antennas they are passing out for free. Someone will eventually pay for them......subscribers?

optimal6

01-11-07, 06:54 PM

Can anyone else pick up WICS-DT right now? Last time I viewed on Sunday it was just fine, but now I get nothing at all. I'm still picking up WICS in analog just fine.

Melanotheron

01-11-07, 07:19 PM

I just checked and I am getting it here in Mahomet. Signal Strength is around 80%...Doug Quick was on with the forecast.

Dr_EluSivE

01-11-07, 07:58 PM

Can anyone else pick up WICS-DT right now? Last time I viewed on Sunday it was just fine, but now I get nothing at all. I'm still picking up WICS in analog just fine.
Due to damage Sustained During the ice storm (Cracked transmission line that was just discovered) Power has been reduced to a Max of 25% to avoid damage to the transmitter. Will likely remain that way till the weather is good enough to send a crew up.

Dr.

optimal6

01-11-07, 08:59 PM

Thanks for the help Dr_EluSivE and Melanotheron.

Stevenage

01-11-07, 09:05 PM

Can anyone else pick up WICS-DT right now? Last time I viewed on Sunday it was just fine, but now I get nothing at all. I'm still picking up WICS in analog just fine.

I lost it too yesterday. I did a rescan and it came back.

thumperxr69

01-13-07, 04:54 PM

Thanks goodness the footballe games are not on ABC. :eek:

mrmopar5287

01-13-07, 10:43 PM

Thanks goodness the footballe games are not on ABC. :eek:

There is always the analog feed to watch. Crap quality, but so is the CBS games that aren't even broadcast in HD from WCIA.

Cap'n Preshoot

01-14-07, 08:06 PM

There is always the analog feed to watch. Crap quality, but so is the CBS games that aren't even broadcast in HD from WCIA.
Well, don't get your hopes up for eventual MPEG-4 locals from D*. We've got 'em and they look like crap. Widescreen, yeah, but sure not "high" definition.

Not all CBS games are in HD. Chargers/Pats game today is.

thumperxr69

01-15-07, 01:48 AM

There is always the analog feed to watch. Crap quality, but so is the CBS games that aren't even broadcast in HD from WCIA.

Hey mrmopar5287...turn that antenna around and point to WMBD and give WCIA the finge.....errr I mean the thumbs up. :rolleyes:

T

mrmopar5287

01-15-07, 02:48 AM

Hey mrmopar5287...turn that antenna around and point to WMBD and give WCIA the finge.....errr I mean the thumbs up.

Not possible, due to my location. I'm in downtown Bloomington, in a 3 storie house turned into 7 apartments. Directly west of me is two huge brick buildings - blocking the straight path to the ABC, NBC, CBS, and PBS transmitters in Peoria. I'm stuck with rabbit ears, because my apartment lease doesn't let me have outside antennas or satellite dishes. I'm aware of the FCC regulations regarding OTA reception, but I don't have any outdoors area that I have exclusive control over. Since the equivalent of several meters of brick block the signals, the only Peoria station I receive is WYZZ FOX - that's because their transmitter is halfway in-between Peoria and Bloomington, so I get a strong enough signal. All other analog and digital channels from Peoria are unwatchable static.

So I'm in the odd position of having most of my TV watching come from stations that are technically outside of my market area. I get WILL PBS digital from Urbana, but only if I position the VHF rabbit ears just right and at the correct length. My CBS is analog from WCIA Champaign, and I'm pretty sure the better path to the transmitter plus the higher ERP of their new digital transmitter will provide me with WCIA in HD when they go on-air. My NBC comes from WAND Decatur, and I can't get a solid lock on the digital feed unless I use a hugely impractical directional UHF antenna that I tried - and I had to hold it just right aiming it out the window. My ABC is WICS from Springfield, and again the digital comes in occasionally with the directional antenna.

I'm actually impressed with what HDTV has to offer, after having bought a Black Friday bargain LCD TV just after Thanksgiving. But that is only a good thing provided I can receive the TV transmissions after the analog feeds are shut down in 2009. I'm in the minority of people who will lose TV viewing options after the transition - I won't have an ABC or NBC channel to view, and that's a lot of good programming. I won't be happy about loosing NBC broadcasts of the NFL, let alone other things. Thankfully the Bears play on FOX, at least for now.

I don't know how market forces happened to be like this, but Bloomington/Normal has the distinction of being probably the largest market in the USA without a single Big 3 TV affiliate licensed to the twin cities. WYZZ is the single channel operating in Bloomington, all others come from Peoria. I've written to the FCC expressing the opinion that WEEK, WHOI, WMBD, and WTVP should have low power broadcast translators in the Bloomington/Normal area - there are enough UHF numbers to use low power transmitters that should hit every house in the twin cities with only a few kilowatts ERP. But I'm really nobody that the FCC has to listen to, so I'll probably get a blow-off letter that says "There is actually a person in America that still uses an antenna? Damn, get basic cable . . ."

Check out these digital service contour maps for the various stations to see the OTA broadcasts for Bloomington, IL. Keep in mind that I only currently receive WYZZ and WILL. All those circles have Bloomington right on the edge of the broadcast range, WYZZ excluded. That's all well and good for huge rooftop antennas, and I'm sure people with cable don't care. But for the people stuck with the rabbit ears, that doesn't help.

WYZZ FOX Peoria (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT612613.html)
WHOI ABC Peoria (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1133556.html)
WEEK NBC Peoria (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT661347.html)
WMBD CBS Peoria (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1117743.html)
WTVP PBS Peoria (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT711664.html)
WILL PBS Urbana (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1115235.html)
WCIA CBS Champaign (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1069146.html)
WICS ABC Springfield (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1063723.html)
WAND NBC Decatur (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT602441.html)

rrrick8

01-15-07, 11:00 AM

Well, don't get your hopes up for eventual MPEG-4 locals from D*. We've got 'em and they look like crap. Widescreen, yeah, but sure not "high" definition.

Not all CBS games are in HD. Chargers/Pats game today is.

Don't know what your local is broadcasting, but I've been very pleased with the Chicago area locals MPEG-4 quality.

Since the upgrade last year (that fixed the sync and macroblocking) I would have to rate it very comparable to OTA. WBBM (2) seems to have issues this weekend, but I'm chalking it up to the bad weather in Chicago. The other 4 Chicago area MPEG-4 locals are just great.

jdcolombo

01-15-07, 07:18 PM

Don't know what your local is broadcasting, but I've been very pleased with the Chicago area locals MPEG-4 quality.

Since the upgrade last year (that fixed the sync and macroblocking) I would have to rate it very comparable to OTA. WBBM (2) seems to have issues this weekend, but I'm chalking it up to the bad weather in Chicago. The other 4 Chicago area MPEG-4 locals are just great.

I agree with RRick. I've done some side-by-side comparison of the Chicago MPEG4 locals to OTA from 15, 17 and 27, as well as to the MPEG2 national HD feeds out of NYC. I can't tell any difference, and this is on a pretty darn good video system (an NEC 1350 8" EM focus CRT front projector firing on a 90" screen). CBS always seems to have some macroblocking on its NFL HD feeds, but that appears to be in the source, not from DirecTV's retransmission.

John C.

Cap'n Preshoot

01-15-07, 08:55 PM

I agree with RRick. I've done some side-by-side comparison of the Chicago MPEG4 locals to OTA from 15, 17 and 27, as well as to the MPEG2 national HD feeds out of NYC. I can't tell any difference, and this is on a pretty darn good video system (an NEC 1350 8" EM focus CRT front projector firing on a 90" screen). CBS always seems to have some macroblocking on its NFL HD feeds, but that appears to be in the source, not from DirecTV's retransmission.

John C.
Apparently then there's some tweaking that can be or at least needs to be done. Our MPEG-4 locals (ABC/CBS/FOX/NBC) don't seem to suffer from any macroblocking, but are otherwise grainy and the grass on the various sports fields of play all seem to have sparkly artifacts. Certainly no comparison or even close to OTA or MPEG-2 (Discovery-HD, HDNet, etc) What STB are you using? H20 here.

mraub

01-15-07, 11:18 PM

Since I'm a Dish subscriber, I look anytime I see a list of proposed HD locals to be added to see if Champaign-Urbana appears on it. So far no mention of our area. Any DirecTV customers here who have heard anything about when DirecTV plans to add C-U HD locals? Both satellite providers seem to be adding bandwidth at a fairly good clip and the markets being announced are getting smaller and smaller.
My uneducated guess is sometime in early 2008. Insight will no doubt beat both of them, but the Insight HD DVR doesn't have the 30 second skip forward function for avoiding commercials that the Dish 622 has and which I use at every commercial break.

jdcolombo

01-16-07, 10:06 AM

Apparently then there's some tweaking that can be or at least needs to be done. Our MPEG-4 locals (ABC/CBS/FOX/NBC) don't seem to suffer from any macroblocking, but are otherwise grainy and the grass on the various sports fields of play all seem to have sparkly artifacts. Certainly no comparison or even close to OTA or MPEG-2 (Discovery-HD, HDNet, etc) What STB are you using? H20 here.

I use an HR20 DVR and HR10-250 DVR (DirecTV's HD-Tivo unit, now discontinued). The HR10-250 won't do MPEG4, but it does get OTA and the national HD feeds on D* channels 80-88. The HR20 now does everything (OTA, MPEG4 and the National HD feeds). Each of these units is fed into a wide-band component video switch (I don't use HDMI, because my projector accepts only analog sources - and HDMI has been notoriously flaky on both of these boxes), which is then fed to my projector. So I can compare signals between each box and also (by switching channels) on the same box between each different format.

DirecTV has, in fact, had problems with their MPEG4 video encoders, which they've been fixing market-by-market. There were a number of complaints on the DBS Talk forums early in the MPEG4 switchover; a lot (but not all) of these now seem to have been resolved. So maybe they just haven't gotten your market fixed yet.

MRaub: nope, I haven't heard anything about the locals going up on D* in HD any time soon. D* is supposed to be launching two new satellites in late spring/early summer to add more bandwidth, and like you, I've always figured that the HD locals won't be up until early 2008. Eventually, though, they HAVE to be there: the analog shut-off is scheduled for February 2009, which is closer than it seems (I love the fact that Congress chose the day after the 2009 SuperBowl to shut off analog TV! No one wants to be blamed for screwing up the 2009 SuperBowl . . . ).

John C.