Champaign, IL - HDTV [Text View] - Page 12

skabadelic

01-18-07, 07:48 PM

I'm new around here and to all of this in general. I did try reading through a lot of this thread [though 90+ pages is a difficult read sometimes]. I live in an apartment complex, so I have to use an indoor ant.

Even after reading a lot of this thread, I'm still not sure if the fact that I'm not picking up CBS programming is do to the tower not being complete, or if I'm just too far out of range [SW Springfield].

I generally get three PBS stations, NBC[regular and weather], Fox and CW. I also get the garbage MyNetwork station on 49. I guess the most frustrating thing is that my Samsung TV tuner completel overrides previous channel finds when you try to do a new search. It also will not let you manually punch in a station number unless it is already programmed into the TV. For example: If I punch in "55-1" the channel pops up because it has been found by the tuner, and programmed into the TV. If I push a number for a channel that I know exists, but did not pull up when the tuner was programming the TV "14-1," the TV will not go to the station.

It's really difficult to find more than the four channels. :confused:

JFKLS1

01-18-07, 07:56 PM

Thanks for the info Dr.

Dr_EluSivE

01-18-07, 08:01 PM

jask

01-18-07, 09:13 PM

Hi all, Can anyone tell me what will be the actual channel for WCIA for high def? I am in North Danville and get Channel 3 without a problem. Great reception!! Will I be able to receive WCIA High-def? Any response would be greatly appreciated, Thank you

Jeff
(Danville)

dishrich

01-18-07, 09:55 PM

Hi all, Can anyone tell me what will be the actual channel for WCIA for high def? I am in North Danville and get Channel 3 without a problem.

It's on digital 48 & if you can get 3 good, you (most likely) will be able to get it with no problem.

dishrich

01-18-07, 09:56 PM

WICS DT is Completely off the Air at the moment, the tower Crews worked yesterday and today on the problem, hopefully it will be fixed soon.

True for the OTA signal, but it is still up & running on Insight here...

BuffaloBill

01-18-07, 11:38 PM

WICS DT was back on OTA as of 7pm this evening.

They mentioned on the WCIA news at six that the SuperBowl would be in HiDef but didn't know when the switchover would take place.

andrewski

01-18-07, 11:58 PM

skabadelic

01-19-07, 01:11 AM

I do have another question. Does WSEC [PBS] stop wprking for others late at night? .1, .2, and .3 come in perfectly all day and most of the night. Then, around midnight, they just quit working.

mrmopar5287

01-19-07, 01:35 AM

after reading through this thread, i have ingested some very good knowledge thanks to all of you smart hd techs out there. my question is this.
I live in Odell, IL. north of pontiac about 12 miles. I can't figure out why Vitale'sFakeEye got a waiver to somebody at DirectTV, who i just switched to, and they got cbs out of NY.. I just called them(Direct), and there is no possible way they can do that for me... ok...i don't get it. they put in a waiver for me for FOX, so they hooked me up to Fox channel 5 near Wash D.C. i don't care about that, but when nascar rolls around, its nice in hd ya know, so good i got fox, but i still don't have cbs.
so I have FOX, NBC, and ABC all from the east coast and all in HD. wonderful. and then i have my SD locals which is fine,
so to my next question, what kind of antenna would you suggest i get to pick up wcia, or heck i might be closer to peoria. but i did some looking and i noticed a terk rooftop for 100 bucks that rates a 450MHZ to 800MHZ or something?, well how do i know how many mhz i need to reach wcia? i'm new to this stuff, Direct told me they could get me what i wanted, and they have stood by 75% of their word, so i'm still not completely satisfied.
please give me your adivice. thanks everyone.

The various broadcast TV channels are split into different frequency bands - hence the antenna ratings for a certain broadcast spectrum. Low number USA television TV transmissions are as follows:

54-72 MHz Channels 2-3
74-80 MHz Channel 5
81.5-87.5 MHz Channel 6
174-216 MHz Channels 7-13

All these channels are on what is knows as the VHF band, for Very High Frequency. Note that there are plenty of other things that fill other parts of the VHF broadcast spectrum, like FM radio (87.5–108 MHz).

All the other channels fall into the UHF spectrum, or Ultra High Frequency, as follows:

470–512 MHz Channels 14-20
512–698 MHz Channels 21-51, channel 34 used for radar, 37 for radio astronomy
698–806 MHz Channels 52-69, to be discontinued after the digital TV transition
806–894 MHz Channels 70-83, no longer used, now used for pagers, cell phones, public safety radio, etc.

Those two bands of TV broadcasting show why you can get separate VHF and UHF antennas. The antenna you describe (450-800 MHz) is obviously a UHF only antenna, designed for channels 14-69. All the current TV stations have two channels that they are broadcasting on during the transition period to digital TV. WCIA broadcasts their analog signal on channel 3 (video carrier on 61.25 MHz), but their new digital signal is on channel 48 (video carrier on 675.25 MHz).

Most TV stations are switching to UHF channel numbers (14 and above) for their digital channels. For specific reasons, it takes a lot less electricity to broadcast a signal on a UHF channel than on a VHF channel. Some stations might switch back to their old VHF channel numbers once their analog signals are turned off, but it remains to be seen if that switch will be permanent. There is word floating around that the FCC might also eliminate the VHF TV channel numbers from the available spectrum, and auction off these channels. So there is some chance that maybe a decade from now all TV broadcasts will be UHF channels from 14 to 51.

Here is a contour map for the new WCIA digital broadcasts:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1069146.html
And for comparison, a contour map for WMBD in Peoria:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1117743.html

As you can read from the maps, Pontiac is right on the bleeding edge of the distance that WCIA transmissions will reach. Same for WMBD in Peoria. Where you live 12 miles north of Pontiac will be tough to get either station. I don't know a thing about Terk antennas, but the general consensus is that it's hard to separate their marketing from legitimate information. To try and receive either of these CBS channels (WCIA 48 or WMBD 30, both digital channel numbers) your best bet is probably to pay an antenna installer to put up a good sized UHF antenna on your rooftop, or on a really tall tower/mast if that is an option.

I don't know your homeowner situation or your geography, so I couldn't tell how big of an antenna you'll need. And I don't know a thing about getting a waiver from DirecTV, other than the sneaky way of getting any waiver you need by telling them that your dish is for a RV that travels the country on vacation. But then you can't get DirecTV to help you with tech problems if they need to send a technician. To me it seems that it should be a no-brainer to get a CBS waiver. DirecTV has already given you FOX, ABC, and NBC simply because you live out in the sticks - you're really not within range of ANY television broadcasts. Since you're in the middle of a dead zone between three CBS stations (WCIA Champaign, WMBD Peoria, and WBBM Chicago) they ought to hook you up with CBS New York without problems.

Dr_EluSivE

01-19-07, 03:31 AM

True for the OTA signal, but it is still up & running on Insight here...
Yes, Insight is Fed Via fiber now, but due to monitoring issues, If the transmitter is down, all you will likely see is upconverted SD.

Dr.

andrewski

01-19-07, 10:29 AM

The various broadcast TV channels are split into different frequency bands - hence the antenna ratings for a certain broadcast spectrum. Low number USA television TV transmissions are as follows:

54-72 MHz Channels 2-3
74-80 MHz Channel 5
81.5-87.5 MHz Channel 6
174-216 MHz Channels 7-13

All these channels are on what is knows as the VHF band, for Very High Frequency. Note that there are plenty of other things that fill other parts of the VHF broadcast spectrum, like FM radio (87.5–108 MHz).

All the other channels fall into the UHF spectrum, or Ultra High Frequency, as follows:

470–512 MHz Channels 14-20
512–698 MHz Channels 21-51, channel 34 used for radar, 37 for radio astronomy
698–806 MHz Channels 52-69, to be discontinued after the digital TV transition
806–894 MHz Channels 70-83, no longer used, now used for pagers, cell phones, public safety radio, etc.

Those two bands of TV broadcasting show why you can get separate VHF and UHF antennas. The antenna you describe (450-800 MHz) is obviously a UHF only antenna, designed for channels 14-69. All the current TV stations have two channels that they are broadcasting on during the transition period to digital TV. WCIA broadcasts their analog signal on channel 3 (video carrier on 61.25 MHz), but their new digital signal is on channel 48 (video carrier on 675.25 MHz).

Most TV stations are switching to UHF channel numbers (14 and above) for their digital channels. For specific reasons, it takes a lot less electricity to broadcast a signal on a UHF channel than on a VHF channel. Some stations might switch back to their old VHF channel numbers once their analog signals are turned off, but it remains to be seen if that switch will be permanent. There is word floating around that the FCC might also eliminate the VHF TV channel numbers from the available spectrum, and auction off these channels. So there is some chance that maybe a decade from now all TV broadcasts will be UHF channels from 14 to 51.

As you can read from the maps, Pontiac is right on the bleeding edge of the distance that WCIA transmissions will reach. Same for WMBD in Peoria. Where you live 12 miles north of Pontiac will be tough to get either station. I don't know a thing about Terk antennas, but the general consensus is that it's hard to separate their marketing from legitimate information. To try and receive either of these CBS channels (WCIA 48 or WMBD 30, both digital channel numbers) your best bet is probably to pay an antenna installer to put up a good sized UHF antenna on your rooftop, or on a really tall tower/mast if that is an option.

I don't know your homeowner situation or your geography, so I couldn't tell how big of an antenna you'll need. And I don't know a thing about getting a waiver from DirecTV, other than the sneaky way of getting any waiver you need by telling them that your dish is for a RV that travels the country on vacation. But then you can't get DirecTV to help you with tech problems if they need to send a technician. To me it seems that it should be a no-brainer to get a CBS waiver. DirecTV has already given you FOX, ABC, and NBC simply because you live out in the sticks - you're really not within range of ANY television broadcasts. Since you're in the middle of a dead zone between three CBS stations (WCIA Champaign, WMBD Peoria, and WBBM Chicago) they ought to hook you up with CBS New York without problems.

Thanks for all that information. So i understand now that I am literally RIGHT out of the line of signal. So I did some more looking last night and i found a 91XG Unidirectional Antenna for Extreme Gain. I is rated as 50 - 70 Miles +. Now that is also right on the line for me also. So its about 100 bucks or so also but it might be worth trying and if it doesn't work, return it i guess. But really i have nothing to lose.
But thank you very much for your information. I appreciate your time kind sir.
Take care.

Vitale'sFakeEye

01-19-07, 02:03 PM

Andrewski,

Here is how I got CBS HD out of New York for almost a year presently. I had Directv send out the waiver request on my behalf to the stations in my viewing area (Champaign). The waiver came back saying all stations had denied my request. I figured they all would with the exception of WCIA, I thought WCIA would grant the request because they were so far behind in even thinking about sending content out in HD. After the refusal I sent Russ Hamilton, the General Manager at WCIA, a cordial email asking him to explain to me why the waiver was denied. In the email I wrote that I wanted the HD content but by no means did I dislike WCIA. I told him I enjoyed their news and local sports and this waiver was only wanted so I could watch the HD programming. My email signature contained my phone number and within 10 minutes from sending the email Russ called me. He said that Directv had never sent him a waiver of any sort on my behalf. I believed him and think that maybe Directv doesn't even send in the waiver but they say they do. We had a nice conversation and Russ said that he would send the waiver through. After a few days I contacted Directv and asked for CBS HD out of New York (channel 80) and they looked up my file and found that WCIA granted my a waiver and I have had it ever since at no cost.

mrmopar5287

01-19-07, 02:59 PM

Thanks for all that information. So i understand now that I am literally RIGHT out of the line of signal. So I did some more looking last night and i found a 91XG Unidirectional Antenna for Extreme Gain. I is rated as 50 - 70 Miles +. Now that is also right on the line for me also. So its about 100 bucks or so also but it might be worth trying and if it doesn't work, return it i guess. But really i have nothing to lose.
But thank you very much for your information. I appreciate your time kind sir.
Take care.

Keep in mind that those contour maps are somewhat approximate. Real world performance means that you can probably erect a good sized antenna and get one of those CBS affiliates.

Following my suggestions, I'd say the best bet would be to get a professional antenna installer to put up that UHF antenna on your rooftop - somewhere with a clean line of sight if possible. That antenna installer should also be able to help you choose which station would be best reception, either Peoria or Champaign. My first choice where you live would be Peoria, because with the antenna aimed that way you also have a good chance of pulling in the ABC, NBC, and FOX affiliates in Peoria. You already get them with waivers from DirecTV, but those Peoria locals can serve as a backup. Sometimes local stuf on the news is nice to watch, and the difference between Eastern and Central times will also give you scheduling flexibility. That means if you want to watch two shows on at the same time, catch one on Eastern time through the DirecTV and then catch the other on Central time via antenna.

That 91XG antenna is a big one - 93 inches long!! If that antenna coupled with a quality signal amplifier doesn't pull in either CBS affiliates, crowing louder about a waiver for your satellite might be the only option.

A long shot would be to try towards Chicago for CBS.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1069502.html
Their contour map shows shorter range to Pontiac, BUT a couple of things might help you view them.

#1 - they broadcast from the John Hancock building in Chicago, which might be a taller point than either Peoria or Champaign. Broadcasting towers have a measurement knows as Antenna Height Above Mean Sea Level (AMSL). WCIA Champaign is 461 meters AMSL, WMBD Peoria is 385 meters AMSL, and WBBM Chicago is 563 meters AMSL.
#2 - WBBM broadcasts on the VHF band, which has signals that generally carry farther than UHF signals.

So the taller antenna coupled with VHF broadcasts that carry farther means that you might get the Chicago CBS station better than either of the UHF channels in Central Illinois. But keep in mind to receive the Chicago station you'd need a VHF antenna. Looking at antennasdirect.com, the V21 is a combo VHF/UHF antenna that is also $100. But to get that combo, you'd be sacrificing gain on the UHF bands. So that means a tough choice - buying a UHF only antenna and trying for the Peoria UHF stations (all of the major networks), or buying a VHF antenna to try for a single Chicago station that might come in better than the UHF stations in Peoria.

That's a tough call to make, so I'll leave the final decision up to you.

MCHansen

01-19-07, 06:11 PM

I appear to be receiving a signal from WCIA on 3-1 at a resolution of 1920 X !088. Does that mean they're using their new transmitter?

sebenste

01-19-07, 07:06 PM

I appear to be receiving a signal from WCIA on 3-1 at a resolution of 1920 X !088. Does that mean they're using their new transmitter?
Where are you at and what is your signal strength? That's 1080i resolution, what WCIA is supposed to be at when they go HD. As of 3 PM, a friend said it wasn't HD yet...so you just might have caught them testing, or...

Hey Springfield, hit your tuners on 48.1 and tell us what you see (and signal strength)!

Anonymous Coward

01-19-07, 07:17 PM

Someone was kind enough to have just sent me the channel list.

For Insight Basic/Classic QAM clear digitals in Urbana-Champaign:

73.3 FOX WCCU HD
73.4 NBC WAND Doppler
73.5 NBC WAND HD
74.3 ABC WICD HD
74.5 PBS WILL Create
74.49 PBS WILL HD

For the above on the Sony QAM tuner I needed to use dishrich's procedure (thanks for that, BTW) to pull them down. Autoscan didn't find them. Simply type in 73.x (I used 73.1), let it try to tune, and then go to the show/hide menu on the TV, and the whole bouquet will be listed for 73. Do the same for 74.

The autoscan on my Sony tuner picked up the following additional QAM clear channels:

77.2 PBS WEIU
77.4 FOX WCCU (no hd)
82.3 movie channel
82.4 movie channel
90.3 CW HD
111.5 Toon Disney
111.6 MTV2

...as well as the digital music channels.

WCIA CBS is now at 90.4 in the clear at 1080i on Insight in Urbana-Champaign.

jdcolombo

01-19-07, 07:28 PM

I appear to be receiving a signal from WCIA on 3-1 at a resolution of 1920 X !088. Does that mean they're using their new transmitter?

Yep. They've thrown the switch. Insight is carrying them on channel 912 (?? - I think this is what they said on the 6:00 p.m. news).

I'm not having great luck with the OTA signal, though - audio is dropping every two seconds and I'm only getting a 50% signal strength on my H20 receiver (as a comparison, WAND booms in at 90).

But . . . it's a start, and they'll get stuff worked out (one hopes) before SuperBowl time.

John C.

Stevenage

01-19-07, 07:29 PM

Hey Springfield, hit your tuners on 48.1 and tell us what you see (and signal strength)!

Just checked 49-2 CBS. Local news on but the signal is 16:9. It is pulling a 69, DUDE! I am on the north/west corner of town.

I never thought I would see this day :cool: LOL

jask

01-19-07, 07:30 PM

thanks for previous info, I am not getting WCIA HD as of yet. I have tried searching with both my tv's tuner as well as my D**tv hd tivo and neither have found it. I am in North Danville and receive WCIA on my off air antenna better than D** local, so I would think I would be able to pull in the WCIA HD channel. Anyone else not getting WCIA HD channel with their antenna? Thanks !

Jeff

dacook96

01-19-07, 07:54 PM

I'm getting WCIA on 49.2 with 1920x1080, 29.97 fps, Dolby Digital 5.1, 384 Kbps. Also 49.1 WCFN has lowered resolution from 720x480 to 480x480 and lowered audio from 384 Kbps to 192 Kbps. I'm on the northeast side of Springfield with an indoor Zenith ZHDTV1 antenna with the signal at 63%. Just in time for football this Sunday.

-Dave

JD23

01-19-07, 07:56 PM

Just checked 49-2 CBS. Local news on but the signal is 16:9. It is pulling a 69, DUDE! I am on the north/west corner of town.

I never thought I would see this day :cool: LOL

Hell just froze over.

heavyharmonies

01-19-07, 08:30 PM

illini85

01-19-07, 08:37 PM

Yep. They've thrown the switch. Insight is carrying them on channel 912 (?? - I think this is what they said on the 6:00 p.m. news).

John C.

They are on station 912 on Insight in the Springfield area. Very nice looking picture. Too bad I don't watch this show. Now we need the Bears to win Sunday so we can see them in the Super Bowl in HD (assuming I don't just go to Miami myself)!

Steve

sebenste

01-19-07, 08:42 PM

I assume that it's at low power? I'm in east Urbana, and cannot pull in squat on 49 regardless of compass orientation. I'm using an outdoor aerial about 20' up.

I pretty much can dial anything in to 80+ signal strength with the exception of WAND, which stays in the low 70s at best.

Well, that's because it's on 48, not 49! :D But at any rate, congrats, gang! Your wait is over. As a minor side note, the sister station up here (FOX Rockford) is due to go 1 mw (already is HD) on or after Super Bowl Sunday if everything went swimmingly well.

Vitale'sFakeEye

01-19-07, 08:52 PM

Northwest Champaign 3-1 coming in strong HD. Thanks WCIA :) Now how long do you think it will be until I lose my CBS HD feed from New York? Not a biggie now though :)

heavyharmonies

01-19-07, 08:56 PM

Well, that's because it's on 48, not 49! :D But at any rate, congrats, gang! Your wait is over. As a minor side note, the sister station up here (FOX Rockford) is due to go 1 mw (already is HD) on or after Super Bowl Sunday if everything went swimmingly well.

Ehh? So I assume the following is incorrect?

I'm getting WCIA on 49.2 with 1920x1080, 29.97 fps, Dolby Digital 5.1, 384 Kbps.

Should be 48.2?

Regardless, I get nothing at all on 3, 48, or 49 when I use the compass orientation specified at antennaweb (270 degrees), or even +/- 5 degrees.

sebenste

01-19-07, 08:59 PM

Hell just froze over.
But wait. Some people are saying 49.2 rebroadcast on WCFN is now HD as well. Can we verify this? Remember, WCIA-DT physically broadcasts on 48...WCFN-DT operates on channel 53, resolves to 49.1?

sebenste

01-19-07, 09:08 PM

Ehh? So I assume the following is incorrect?

Should be 48.2?

Regardless, I get nothing at all on 3, 48, or 49 when I use the compass orientation specified at antennaweb (270 degrees), or even +/- 5 degrees.

Wow. I mean, you should be getting blasted with signal. It is entirely possible that WCIA is (here goes hell freezing over again) OVERLOADING your tuner. 48.1 is the physical channel. Now, it could be that they are messing with stuff (and I betcha there's a cornfield with a tower in it that will have people inside much of the night in a small building), and that your tuner can't handle it. But, try it with just rabbit ears, a paper clip (I'm serious! That should be pegging your signal meter). Or, if see if you get ghosts on other analog UHF stations.

They are physically broadcasting on channel 48. It would be oh so cool if they also did on 53.2 (resolving to 49.2) in Springfield.

And with the latest generation of encoders, it should look sweet, and others have noted that it does. Prediction: after initial euphoria, people will want WCFN booted off to maximize bits. But if WCIA uses dynamic bitrate allocation, no worries, mate. WCFN's picture will suffer and WCIA will get all the bandwidth it can get.

And yes, the 49.2 should be incorrect, he probably means 48.1...UNLESS WCIA at low power is also in HD on WCFN's 49.2. That's what I want to know. It *should* be fairly
easy to make that happen if they have high-def equipment at WCFN to relay WCIA.

Try doing a rescan of your channels and see if that picks it up.

JD23: In response to your message below, they might "only" be at 500 kw, at half power, while they make sure both sides of the transmitter are functioning properly.
Still, at 500 kw and where you are, what kind of antenna are you using? Even so, as long as it solidly locks, and it's HD CBS in Champaign... :)

JD23

01-19-07, 09:19 PM

In Champaign, the signal is not particularly strong. I am getting between 70 and 76 on channel 3.1. With the antenna pointed in the correct direction, the signal is adequate but not as strong as I would expect.

mrmopar5287

01-19-07, 09:29 PM

I got nothing in Bloomington. I'll have to wait a couple of days until WCIA has all the bugs worked out - maybe they're still on-and-off testing.

I'm stuck with indoor rabbit ears, so I wish WCIA had stuck with a VHF broadcast. I get PBS solid with a cheap $10 antenna, but probably no UHF from WCIA. And I had my hopes up that 1,000,000 watts ERP would carry to my house . . .

dishrich

01-19-07, 09:33 PM

llueveYescampa

01-19-07, 10:02 PM

I live in south-east Urbana. No luck yet.

dishrich

01-19-07, 10:08 PM

This would apply to Decatur & Lincoln Insight subs as well.
It's on the same bouquet as WICS-HD.

sebenste

01-19-07, 10:18 PM

OMG - hell IS freezing over here for us in Springpatch!!!

While I cannot lock signal on my Sony TV on 3.1/physical ch 48 (the TV signal meter is ONLY hitting 41%), WCFN IS, in fact, broadcasting CBS HD on 49.2/physical ch 53. While I am NOT surprised that DT 48 would NOT make it over here that strong, (remember our discussion on this sebenste ;) ;) )

What discussion? :D Well, hang on...I suspect they are still only at half power...maybe less. I suspect half, because some folks in Springpatch ARE getting it with a solid signal!

I actually did NOT dream they would light up CBS-HD on WCFN-DT at the same time! :eek: :eek:

That IS surprising. Wow. It's not the first time a subchannel is in HD, but my goodness, to see WCFN do it is phenomenal for you guys. So, this means that
WCFN has just redeemed itself after blowing CBS off on analog. Kinda. :D

You know, considering that I am using a large UHF corner yagi w/pre-amp, I bet that if I was higher off the ground with it, (I'm only about 20' up) I might have been able to pull in DT 48 directly - but I guess since DT 53 has CBS-HD as well, I guess it's a moot point now.

Wait, don't give up hope yet. You're 20' up, outdoors, big yagi--can you adjust your antenna to see if you can get it in any stronger? I forgot if you had a rotor or not.

Now, I'm off to scan the Insight digital signals for the QAM signal, for you guys with only QAM tuners on Insight cable - I'll post as soon as I find it.

Cool. I bet they are still at half power, and an extra 3 dB of gain on their side might put you over the top. And, they still have tweaking to do with that, so before I declare shoe firmly in mouth (unsalted, trying to keep my sodium intake down :D ), give me a week and then tell me if it comes in.

And hopefully, you will be swamped with business over the next few weeks!

dishrich

01-19-07, 10:32 PM

What discussion? :D Well, hang on...I suspect they are still only at half power...maybe less. I suspect half, because some folks in Springpatch ARE getting it with a solid signal!

True & I plan on keeping an eye on it - but really, since they have CBS-HD up on WCFN-DT (& assuming they plan on keeping it there!) it's really a moot point for us now. :)

That IS surprising. Wow. It's not the first time a subchannel is in HD, but my goodness, to see WCFN do it is phenomenal for you guys. So, this means that
WCFN has just redeemed itself after blowing CBS off on analog. Kinda. :D

Yes, but do keep in mind this most likely means that the actual WCFN/MYTV signal will probably stay as SD. But obviously, keeping CBS in HD should be a higher priority anyway. (if I was running the station anyway ;) )

And yes, I gotta say - I am pleasantly SHOCKED & AMAZED that us hicks in Springpatch are being treated the SAME as the Champaign side of the house! (for a change!) :eek: :p

Wait, don't give up hope yet. You're 20' up, outdoors, big yagi--can you adjust your antenna to see if you can get it in any stronger? I forgot if you had a rotor or not.

No rotor & I have NO intention of climbing on top of the house in below-freezing temps to experiment. Also, I did get a newer Winegard pre-amp w/FM trap, that I plan on swapping out. (all I had laying around was an older one that I trashed from a crashed antenna tower from someone) It gets the job done, but I was planning on switching it anyway. Like I said, as long as CBS-HD stays on WCFN-DT, it really is a moot point now. ;)

And hopefully, you will be swamped with business over the next few weeks!

Hopefully NOT - I need a rest for awhile. I haven't even had time to finish completely hooking up my OWN new HD set to everything! You know what they say about the plumber that never has time to work on his OWN plumbing - that's ME w/my A/V system... :eek: ;)

vudurob

01-19-07, 10:37 PM

I'm pulling WCIA in on 3.1 @ 60% signal strength and I live in NW Mahomet. Looks like the Colts-Pats game will be a beautiful thing to see!

stanswx

01-19-07, 10:38 PM

Only getting a 32% signal on 3.1 here in northern Champaign tonight. (antenna at 20 ft pointed to the WSW) I'm just hoping they're not running full power yet, otherwise the OTA folks like me will be screwed. Hopefully by Superbowl time they will be pushing more power, otherwise I'm going to be one upset puppy. (especially if the Bears make it!)

skabadelic

01-19-07, 10:43 PM

I've scanned three times now, with my ant in different positions...nothing... :(

sebenste

01-19-07, 11:23 PM

I've scanned three times now, with my ant in different positions...nothing... :(

Stan and Skabadelic,

I betcha they're not even close to 500,000 kw if you guys have outdoor antennas.
OR they're overloading all your tuners, which is hard to believe. They, like all stations that go full power, will be on and off the air for another several days while they sort things out. If they are at 500,000 watts or 1 million, something is really wrong!

But given that people are seeing them in Springfield, they have to be pushing at least a couple hundred kilowatts to get there...

See if the 10 PM news sheds any light. One thing: they haven't announced it on their website, even as a news story...which tells me things are still in the very early stages yet. Yes...at 500 kw, you should be seeing them in Danville. Hey Danville, you seeing anything?

Still, they went higher power on one station and then HD with two stations at the same time. Impressive.

Edit: 60% signal in Mahomet, where you can see the pretty red lights from their tower, and 0% in Danville? Houston, we have a problem!

jask

01-19-07, 11:37 PM

Still nothing here in Danville!

dishrich

01-20-07, 12:18 AM

See if the 10 PM news sheds any light.

The only thing they said, is that they WERE up in HD, & that Insight cable subs could find it on 912, while Mediacom subs would get it tomorrow on a 7xx channel.
NO word about us over in Springpatch, but that's nothing new... :rolleyes:

mkjnovak

01-20-07, 01:18 AM

still nothing for me in central Urbana

sniper_06

01-20-07, 09:07 AM

Hello all,
I'm not getting anything ether.. I'm in Foosland, straight North of their tower at 17.7 miles. I have a Terk TV-38 antenna up at around 20+ feet.

I get a good solid signal from all of the stations below except for WCIA 3.1/48.1? My TV only shows a Red50%-Yellow40%-Green10% signal bar 50+40+10=100% signal. I only get about 65-75% Red on 3.1/48.1. None of the stations go into the green on the signal meter but, they all come in very solid (70%+signal total on the meter) w/no drop outs. WCIA is the closest station to me & IF they are at full power, why am I not picking them up.. I have turned the antenna several degrees to either side of where it should be, (186° from my location) I even ran a channel scan several times & NOTHING!? Their tower is about straight South of me & I even tried pointing the antenna North in case they are overloading my TV/tuner?
Here is the only thing I can think of..
1) They are not at full power. I HOPE!
2) They are overloading my tuner. I DOUBT IT!
3) They are at full power & not reaching my antenna. WHAT?!?!?!?

WCIA-DT 3.1 CBS 17.7 Miles. No signal??
WILL-DT 12.1, .2, .3, PBS 25.7 Miles.
WICD-DT 15.1 ABC 33.8 Miles.
WAND-DT 17.1, .2, NBC 35.5 Miles.
WBUI-DT 23.1, .2, CW 36.8 Miles.
WCCU-DT 27.1, .2, FOX 27.1 Miles.
WYZZ-DT 43.1 FOX 44.1 Miles.
Any ideas? Thanks, Phil B.

BuffaloBill

01-20-07, 10:14 AM

Over here in SW Springfield, I got a marginal signal (60-78) off of my large roof-mounted Winegard on 49-2 and 53-3, but nothing from the Silver Sensor attached to another TV. The signal was fairly stable early in the evening with only occasional break-ups. But by the time Letterman was on, the pixelation was getting more frequent with the picture freezing for several seconds at a time.

I can live with occasional pixelation, but not with freezing every few minutes. I hope this is a temporary effect of low power. I don't want to have to record the analog signal along with the digital just to make sure I have a watchable program.

Cap'n Preshoot

01-20-07, 11:52 AM

60% signal in Mahomet, where you can see the pretty red lights from their tower, and 0% in Danville? Houston, we have a problem!
NO, no problem here in Houston ;) though I do find it interesting they're still using the old antique tower lights. Most everyone has replaced the incandescant side lights and red beacons with strobes. Less maintenance (longer life) and no more painting. I would think with them beefing up their tower that strobing it would have been included in the same order.

jdh8668

01-20-07, 12:31 PM

As of 11:30am no WCIA HD signal on the north end of Decatur. And for that matter, we still don't WICS HD either. I've scanned my Directv receiver several times.

sebenste

01-20-07, 12:42 PM

As of 11:30am no WCIA HD signal on the north end of Decatur. And for that matter, we still don't WICS HD either. I've scanned my Directv receiver several times.

Thanks for your reports everyone. 18 miles out north of the transmitter, your antenna should be melting. I bet something is wrong with the high power transmitter, and they have either throttled back severely on the wattage, or turned off the tranny completely. Rich, your report that they "just" went HD and nothing else indicates that they probably do have a transmitter problem, since they also didn't mention full power. Give them this weekend to work this out.

Seriously, 1 mw should blow serious smoke in Decatur and Danville. I'm seeing too many "no signal" reports away from the tower to say it's high power. It looks like they fired it up at half power, saw a problem, and powered it back down after a few hours. But at least they are passing the HD through, which means they are halfway home.

skabadelic

01-20-07, 01:10 PM

I just did two more scans. No WCIA in SW Spfld, yet. Not with an indoor OTA, anyway.

mrmopar5287

01-20-07, 01:48 PM

Friday night, I sent a quick email to Russ Hamilton asking about the HD progress. His reply:

"You should be getting HD Friday night in prime and Saturday for CBS Sports, Saturday Prime and again Sunday with CBS and the AFC Championship."

No signal for me in Bloomington thus far. I'm hoping they'll be blasting a full million watts on Sunday for the NFL game. I'm rooting for both Chicago and Indy, so I'd like to see more than just the Bears in HD on FOX.

sniper_06

01-20-07, 01:56 PM

UPDATE..
I called WCIA (11:20AM) & was told their OTA HD is only at half power.. they are working out some "minor" problems. The gentleman I spoke with said he had no word on when they would be going full power?
Later, Phil B.

Dr_EluSivE

01-20-07, 02:55 PM

I just did two more scans. No WCIA in SW Spfld, yet. Not with an indoor OTA, anyway.

I can get it on 52.2 with my attic mount directional uhf, but no sign of Actual WCIA from champaign. I dont really expect to get it off air though here in chatham. Keep in mind that while they are broadcasting 1000kw, they certianly dont have the tallest tower of the locals and that makes a big difference. As long as the digital repeater here in town looks good, i would stick with that.

Dr.

llueveYescampa

01-20-07, 03:21 PM

The news is in the WCIA web page.
They even mention that "WCIA is currently broadcasting a low power over the air HD signal."

Hope they boost it soon. In South-East Urbana there is no reception yet.

http://www.wcia.com/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=5230

Laddy

01-20-07, 04:25 PM

Is transmission power a linear or nonlinear function with respect to ability to receive the signal? If WCIA-HD is at half power and I can't even get a twinge of a signal, it doesn't seem likely I'll even get much of a signal at full power unless going from 500 kw to 1 mw makes a big difference. According to antennaweb, I'm 43 miles from the tower. I'm beginning to wonder whether I might do just as well orienting toward WMBD in Peoria. They're only a few miles farther than WCIA. I've just never had much luck grabbing their analog signal in the past and since I have D*sh I haven't even tried for several years.

I'm kind of disappointed that WICS-HD is still missing in action.

JFKLS1

01-20-07, 04:33 PM

flyingfan

01-20-07, 04:51 PM

49-2 in HD
Looks good.............excited about tommorrow
They flipped the switch for the Texas-Villanova game

zoidman1956

01-20-07, 05:04 PM

Dr_EluSivE

01-20-07, 05:15 PM

Indeed, WICS-DT has been out of commision for about 10 days for me. My S3 Tivo has been pulling it in with 90% since I got the bad boy but now it is completely gone. I hate no ABC HD:(
Any updates on when it may be back online?
When the tower crew went up to repair the transmission line they discovered damage to the antenna itself. It will be on low power until the antenna can be repaired. Last i heard it could be another week or longer.

Dr.

andrewski

01-20-07, 06:28 PM

BuffaloBill

01-20-07, 06:47 PM

After several days of no signal on WICS-DT, it was back on OTA Thurs. The wife and I watched Grey's Anatomy in HD with good signal strength here in SW Spfld and Desperate Housewives last night. Still on today.

Watched WCIA in HD on 49-2 off and on this afternoon, and no freeze-ups! Hope they can keep it going through the game tomorrow.

Laddy

01-20-07, 07:33 PM

After several days of no signal on WICS-DT, it was back on OTA Thurs. The wife and I watched Grey's Anatomy in HD with good signal strength here in SW Spfld and Desperate Housewives last night. Still on today.

I'm 20 miles from the WICS tower and it's not tweaking my meter at all. Today all we're receiving is WBUI, WAND, and WRSP..

JFKLS1

01-20-07, 08:34 PM

Thanks for the info Dr. I live in Normal, and can not get WICD either.
The rest of the networks all come in flawlessly though:)

mrmopar5287

01-20-07, 08:48 PM

Thanks for the info Dr. I live in Normal, and can not get WICD either.
The rest of the networks all come in flawlessly though:)

You're trying to pull in WICD? In Normal you'd be better off with WHOI from Peoria, unless you have some particular problem with reception from the west.

mraub

01-20-07, 09:55 PM

The WCIA-HD signal comes in at exactly the same level as their old DT-SD signal on a Dish 622. Not exactly pegging the needle yet, but plenty enough for a solid lock. IND-UCONN game looked great. I don't think WCIA's antenna is omnidirectional, so some people with reception problems might be in a null zone.

sebenste

01-21-07, 04:00 AM

No high power until the 5 inch copper is up tower and antenna tuned... still learning how to deal with the hd sat rx from CBS. ynr on one channel, CBS prime on another, various channels for constant or flex sports, manual H/V selection on sub menu, rx is a rack mount box w no computer interface. no keyer hooked up, so no crawls or other distractions yet.

I think some people here missed something important. This is the WCIA Engineer!

Hey Zoidman,

Thanks for the reply. Any ballpark figure on when you'll be at full power? To clarify, you're still on your 1.8 kw low power tranny, correct? When will the antenna be tuned, and the 5" copper installed?

The point: Will you be 500 kw or greater for Super Bowl Sunday?

And...keep the pictures coming on the website. We want more! This is WAY cool to see all this inside stuff going on!

Tell Tired, Cold Wet and Muddy, "great job"! And get some sleep...you've earned it!

JFKLS1

01-21-07, 09:07 AM

You are correct mrmopar, with the direction I have my antenna pointed I get all of the Peoria and Springfield stations. My problem is that about the same time WICS went down, WHOI stopped coming in too. The same day actually. NBC, CBS, FOX, and WB all still are at 75-85% strenght so it is not my antenna. I will mess around with re-aiming it when it warms up. I really don't want to go up on the roof right now.

Laddy

01-21-07, 09:15 AM

When the tower crew went up to repair the transmission line they discovered damage to the antenna itself. It will be on low power until the antenna can be repaired. Last i heard it could be another week or longer.

Dr.

That's a real bummer. Is it bad weather slowing down the process or waiting for repair parts? I wonder if it would take as long for repairs if the analog was down or if the sparse OTA HD viewership is a factor? I could see from an economic standpoint to not get very bothered about the OTA HD since most don't use it and analog is still available. I imagine they still pass the HD signal to the cable people as well. I wonder if things will change when analog is gone and only OTA HD remains. I'm not criticizing, just curious, and certainly wouldn't want to have to climb the tower myself.

jdh8668

01-21-07, 09:55 AM

So it sounds like unless they get it cranking at full power, we're in the dark for the Super Bowl here in Decatur. :( I wonder if Russ would grant a waiver until they hit full stride? On another note, has anyone noticed an increase in WILL's power the past few days? I have an indoor antenna and before, WILL used to be weak. Now we're lookin good.

Dr_EluSivE

01-21-07, 12:56 PM

That's a real bummer. Is it bad weather slowing down the process or waiting for repair parts? I wonder if it would take as long for repairs if the analog was down or if the sparse OTA HD viewership is a factor? I could see from an economic standpoint to not get very bothered about the OTA HD since most don't use it and analog is still available. I imagine they still pass the HD signal to the cable people as well. I wonder if things will change when analog is gone and only OTA HD remains. I'm not criticizing, just curious, and certainly wouldn't want to have to climb the tower myself.
weather does play a factor in these things, but i dont believe that the digital is given a lower priority then the analog. It took quite a bit of extra work to get us back on at low power, work that will have to be undone to get us back to normal. My understanding is that a part of the antenna (a bay) will need to be brought to the ground to be repaired, and the rigging for that takes a while. Not to mention tower crews can be hard to come by this time of year. I believe the parts have been ordered, and time scheduled to fix it. I will try to get a closer estimate when i go in on monday.

Dr.

dishrich

01-21-07, 01:53 PM

I can get it on 52.2 with my attic mount directional uhf,

I think you meant 53.2... ;) ;)

Dr_EluSivE

01-21-07, 02:09 PM

I think you meant 53.2... ;) ;)
yup

jdmcdonald

01-21-07, 03:01 PM

According to my Longley-Rice program, with a 30 foot high antenna WCIA should be line of sight and receivable now in Decatur at the higher elevations. At lower elevation, like along the lake, it is hopeless now without a 75 foot tower. A million watts ERP will help the
latter situation.

Doug McDonald

skabadelic

01-21-07, 06:06 PM

Touchdown Bears! C'mon WCIA, we NEEEED you. :eek:

Dr_EluSivE

01-21-07, 07:10 PM

dacook96

01-21-07, 10:05 PM

Is it just me or is WCIA HD missing the .1 in the 5.1 I dont seem to be getting a subwoofer channel. It sounds good, but the Subwoofer channel is MIA. I am watching on insight if that makes a difference.

Dr.

You're correct; my Sony surround sound receiver indicates the subwoofer channel is not present. I'm receiving WCIA on 49.2 in Springfield OTA.

-Dave

Vitale'sFakeEye

01-21-07, 10:24 PM

Yep, WCIA is missing the .1 channel. I have CBS HD feed from New York and of course the new WCIA HD :) When it comes to pic quality I think the WCIA feed is better but the difference is like splitting hairs. Big difference is audio. I watched the game from the New York feed because the sound made you feel like you were there at the game. I have a Sony receiver and when I watch WCIA HD the "L.F.E." indicator does not light. That little difference makes a big difference in audio quality.

mrmopar5287

01-21-07, 10:44 PM

Alright, I've been a Bears fan since the 1985 team. Cut me a break there, cause I was born in 1980. I've also been a Colts fan since they came to Indy in 1984, on account of my old man originally being from Baltimore.

Now that I've got the chance to see the SuperBowl of my dreams in HD, I do hope CBS gets their work done to broadcast at full power. As a last resort, I guess I can cart my TV to my parents house to use their cable.

les_S

01-22-07, 12:37 AM

BuffaloBill

01-22-07, 12:57 AM

No love for me tonight on 49.2. I had my hopes up after watching the basketball game yesterday in HD, but couldn't get a strong enough signal to lock on today. Don't know if it was due to a decline in in atmospheric conditions or lower power from WCIA, but I hope things improve before the SuperBowl.

Does anyone know whether increasing the power on 48.1 will also increase the power on 49.2?

mrmopar5287

01-22-07, 01:11 AM

I live in a two story house with a large attic that has a chimney in the middle which does not allow me to utilize a rotor. In my attic I have a Radio Shack VU-190XR 160" long 57 Element Outdoor antenna. I know the attic isn't an ideal place, but every installer I have talked to will not get on top of my house becuase of how tall it is. CurrentlY I have been using three small 10db cheap amp from Best Buy to boost my signal. When pointed towards Springfield I recieve 17.1, 20.1, 23.1 and 55.1 without any problem. When I point to champaign I can only recieve 15.1, 17.1 and 23.1. I have a couple of questions, What amp should I switch to to help me pull in CBS? Can I pull in CBS pointing to Springfield through 48.1? or is that only achieved by pointing to champaign?

Some information about where your house is located would help.

That's a huge antenna, but you're not doing yourself any favors by having a combo VHF/UHF antenna. With your channel list, there aren't any VHF channels (2-13) to receive. I don't know of those cheap amps from Best Buy are helping - or if you need 3 of them. I guess 3 amps are OK if you have a super-long cable run, but if not they're probably not helping much. Maybe using only one amp is enough of a signal boost for the Springfield stations.

Without knowing your specific location, my suggestion would be to wait until WCIA in Champaign is broadcasting their digital channel at full power. I guess right now during testing, they're still at low power. When fully lit, WCIA is supposed to have a million watts of radiated signal power - which is quite a strong signal. Depending on your location, you might pick up WCIA CBS just fine with that huge antenna still pointed at Springfield. Give WCIA another two weeks to have their HD signal on the air full strength for the SuperBowl, and then make changes if you still don't receive them strong enough.

mrmopar5287

01-22-07, 01:23 AM

Does anyone know whether increasing the power on 48.1 will also increase the power on 49.2?

Won't help. Those are two separate transmitters, on different channels.

49.2 is actually broadcast on channel 53 from the tower a few miles east of Springfield, about 1/3 of the way to Mechanicsburg. The FCC info for WCFN says they're approved for 1,000,000 watts ERP, but also a temporary permit for 1,810 watts ERP. If you live in Springfield and can't get a good lock on digital 49, they're probably still using their low powered transmitter. With a million watts at their max, there should be no reason you wouldn't pull in the digital feed with a strong lock.

My guess is that WCFN in Springfield is in the same situation as the parent WCIA in Champaign - they haven't completed work on the tower or transmitter. They're probably focusing on getting the parent station on-air at full power, and then will work on the Springfield affiliate. My memory from this (LONG) forum is that WCIA was going to get their primary tower and transmitter set up, and then start work on the affiliate tower near Mechanicsburg.

skabadelic

01-22-07, 04:54 AM

This is probably a stupid question, but is the affiliate tower nearer to Springfield going to be broadcasting CBS, or that terrible MyNetworkTV station?

I live ~80 miles from Champaign, so I don't know that even at full power I will be able to get CBS-HD OTA with an indoor antennae in a garden [five feet below ground level] apartment.

I feel that I may be out of luck on getting CBS-HD. Especially in time for the big game. This is unfortunate because even if I had the money I don't know if I would want to pay the outrageous prices for Insight Digital 2.0.

I don't know if it would help anyone to give me a better grasp of what I'm in for, but I live on the SW side of Springfield [Old Jacksonville Road]. As I said before, I live in an apartment building that specifically disallows outdoor antennae in the lease.

The stations I can currently pull in are:

FOX [SPRINGFIELD IL~13 miles from tower]
WRSP 55
WRSP-DT 55.1

PBS [JACKSONVILLE IL~25 miles from towers]
W08DP 8
WSEC 14
WSEC-TV 14.1
WSEC-D2 14.2
WSEC-D3 14.3

ABC [SPRINGFIELD IL~12 miles from tower]
WICS 20
WICS-DT 20.1

MNT [SPRINGFIELD IL~9 miles from tower]
WCFN 49
{for some reason I do not pick up 49.1 WCFN-DT, even though I am only 9 miles from tower}

CW [DECATUR IL~50 miles from tower]
WBUI 23
WBUI-DT 23.1

NBC [DECATUR IL~50 miles from tower]
WAND 17
WAND-DT 17.1
WAND-SD 17.2

EWTN [?]
W28BE-TV 28

I also get HSN on 33.

Sorry for all of the n00b questions.

rrrick8

01-22-07, 09:32 AM

Some information about where your house is located would help.

That's a huge antenna, but you're not doing yourself any favors by having a combo VHF/UHF antenna. With your channel list, there aren't any VHF channels (2-13) to receive.

WILL-DT (tv channels 12.1, 12.2 & 12.3) are broadcast on channel 9. Those that aren't pulling it in are really missing the boat. 12.1 is the national PBS-HD feed and has excellent HD shows.

Anonymous Coward

01-22-07, 12:15 PM

I feel that I may be out of luck on getting CBS-HD. Especially in time for the big game. This is unfortunate because even if I had the money I don't know if I would want to pay the outrageous prices for Insight Digital 2.0.

If you can get Insight, you don't need the Digital 2.0 package. The HD locals are available with just their Basic Cable provided your set has a QAM tuner (or you have a set top with a QAM in it). Samsung DTBH260F is a standalone set top with a QAM tuner that works fine provided you can find it in stock online before the game. The QAM channel locations for Insight in both Springfield and Champaign-Urbana have been posted in this thread.

jdmcdonald

01-22-07, 01:01 PM

WCIA's Pats - Colts game suffered from serious artefact problems. I hope that this is
not permanent. At least it didn't suffer from lip sync problems.

Doug McDonald

mrmopar5287

01-22-07, 01:41 PM

WILL-DT (tv channels 12.1, 12.2 & 12.3) are broadcast on channel 9. Those that aren't pulling it in are really missing the boat. 12.1 is the national PBS-HD feed and has excellent HD shows.

The poster didn't mention receiving (or wanting to receive) WILL, so I didn't think it was important.

mraub

01-22-07, 01:59 PM

I saw some artifacts in the 1st half of the game, mainly with fast panning. They were less visible in the 2d half. There are some minor lip sync problems that were most notable while watching a basketball game. The sound of the ball hitting the rim was a bit behind the visual image.

rrrick8

01-22-07, 02:22 PM

The poster didn't mention receiving (or wanting to receive) WILL, so I didn't think it was important.

And I'm just letting him know that there is a very good station available on VHF.

I have the RS VU-210 mounted on my single story roof here in Danville and can pull in all the towers east of Decatur (with the exception of WCIA of course).

If I turn it to the east, I can pull in some of the Indy stations consistently.

sebenste

01-22-07, 03:58 PM

WCIA's Pats - Colts game suffered from serious artefact problems. I hope that this is
not permanent. At least it didn't suffer from lip sync problems.

Doug McDonald

Saw that up here in Rockford as well.

sebenste

01-22-07, 04:05 PM

This is probably a stupid question, but is the affiliate tower nearer to Springfield going to be broadcasting CBS, or that terrible MyNetworkTV station?

Sorry for all of the n00b questions.

D'oh! You get everything you need to BUT WCFN-DT and...unfortunately, that's what you want. On their subchannel, they simulcast WCIA-DT in full HD. Can you adjust your antenna to get it? Is it an amplified antenna? Brand/model? That would help us out. You should have a decent shot of getting it there.

dishrich

01-22-07, 04:19 PM

D'oh! You get everything you need to BUT WCFN-DT and...unfortunately, that's what you want. On their subchannel, they simulcast WCIA-DT in full HD. Can you adjust your antenna to get it? Is it an amplified antenna? Brand/model? That would help us out. You should have a decent shot of getting it there.

But ALSO understand that WCFN-DT is NOT up on full power, so trying to pull it in with an indoor antenna is NOT going to be the easiest exercise - with ANY kind of indoor antenna! I have clients not that far south of Springfield, with OUTSIDE amp'd antennas that STILL can't pull in WCFN-DT. And also, where he lives, he's shooting through a LOT of trees in a park, so that probably isn't helping matters, either.
(I used to live in that area until a year ago, BTW)

I live ~80 miles from Champaign, so I don't know that even at full power I will be able to get CBS-HD OTA with an indoor antennae in a garden [five feet below ground level] apartment.

I feel that I may be out of luck on getting CBS-HD. Especially in time for the big game. This is unfortunate because even if I had the money I don't know if I would want to pay the outrageous prices for Insight Digital 2.0.

OK, so now that I am totally confused - what ARE you watching TV on now?
Cable, OTA only, or satellite? It would help us to help you if you told us this tidbit... ;)

dacook96

01-22-07, 04:40 PM

This is probably a stupid question, but is the affiliate tower nearer to Springfield going to be broadcasting CBS, or that terrible MyNetworkTV station?

The stations I can currently pull in are:

MNT [SPRINGFIELD IL~9 miles from tower]
WCFN 49
{for some reason I do not pick up 49.1 WCFN-DT, even though I am only 9 miles from tower}

I suggest concentrating on receiving 49.1 WCFN-DT because this station is also broadcasting WCIA-DT (CBS HD as of Friday) on 49.2 for the Springfield area. Here's some areas to look at:

Antenna
What type/model of indoor antenna are you using? Radio Shack has several indoor HDTV antennas you could try (and take back if it doesn't work for you). I recommend the Zenith ZHDTV1 (Amazon has them). If possible, moving your antenna to an east facing window would also help. Does your TV or tuner allow you to directly enter channel numbers? If so try entering in 49.2 or 53.2 to receive WCIA-DT. A channel scan my help too.

Line-of-sight
From your location, buildings in the downtown area of Springfield could be blocking you. You are receiving WAND-DT which is a good sign. Also we are dealing with a UHF signal here which has the advantage over a VHF signal of bouncing off of buildings to over come line-of-sight problems.

Interference
From the list of channels you are currently receiving, your antenna seems to be working well. There could be electrical noise (a malfunctioning appliance, electrical wiring problems, etc.) that interferes with the channel 49.1 and 49.2 signal, keeping your TV from receiving it. You could try powering off/unplugging all your appliances to see if the interference (if there is any) disappears. Worst case It could be a neighbors appliance. Try receiving 49.1/49.2 late at night when the neighbors appliance might be powered off. Look at the cable TV boxes in your area to make sure they are closed up. Insight transmits all kinds of signals over the cable. It's when these signals escape the cable at junction boxes that cause interference over the airwaves. Report any suspect boxes to Insight and tell them the boxes are causing interference.

-Dave

sebenste

01-22-07, 04:40 PM

But ALSO understand that WCFN-DT is NOT up on full power, so trying to pull it in with an indoor antenna is NOT going to be the easiest exercise - with ANY kind of indoor antenna! I have clients not that far south of Springfield, with OUTSIDE amp'd antennas that STILL can't pull in WCFN-DT. And also, where he lives, he's shooting through a LOT of trees in a park, so that probably isn't helping matters, either.
(I used to live in that area until a year ago, BTW)

OK, so now that I am totally confused - what ARE you watching TV on now?
Cable, OTA only, or satellite? It would help us to help you if you told us this tidbit... ;)

Trees, ugh. That's why I asked him about the antenna details. WCFN is at low power...that's an understatement! 1,810 measly watts. A coat hanger and a 9 volt battery at the top of their tower could approach that ERP... ;) :D

OK, seriously, he will have serious trouble getting it, but with the list of channels he showed, I thought it was clear he had an antenna. 80 miles from Champaign is probably about 20 miles off. Still, bottom line: he's going to have a lot of problems getting WCFN. BTW, the outdoor and amped customers you have...I would guess they have 4th generation tuners, and the multipath from that is probably hurting them (or VERY directional antennas or both)?

BTW, WCIA is still at 1.8 kw themselves. Hopefully, this week, they can power up to 1 mil. Antennas should be melting in Decatur with that blowtorch!

WCIAchief

01-22-07, 04:49 PM

I am the chief engineer for WCIA/WCFN and thought I could shed some light on everyone's questions.

1) WCIA-DT is NOT high power yet. The weather and wind have not been kind to our tower crew and have delayed the tower reinforcement work.

2) WCFN-DT in Springfield is slated for its upgrade late this year, and may not start until 2008 per corporate.

3) We are aware of the tiling and artifacts in fast-motion video that occurred during the AFC game Sunday. Our plans are to devote more bandwidth to the HD stream prior to Feb. 4 to minimize those effects.

4) I overlooked enabling the LFE channel on our Dolby 569 encoder. That was corrected this morning and we should be passing that channel for tonight's primetime.

5) I am also aware of some lip-sync issues. We are still tweaking the encoders and other upstream gear in the HD path to address those problems.

6) Insight in Champaign and Springfield have our signal via fiber and were able to add our HD to their systems on Friday when we cut over to it. Mediacom receives our DTV signal at their headend in Mahomet. Technically they have the WCIA HD signal on their system, but I believe they still have to program all the subscriber boxes before they can call up the HD.

We have 2" of ice on our tower from the precipitation this weekend, but the tower crew is anxious to get back on the tower and get the work completed. They have two days of reinforcement left, then they can begin stacking our transmission line and hanging the antenna. Of course, all of this work is entirely dependent on the cooperation of the weather- certainly no guarantees for that here in central Illinois.

Hopefully I've answered some of the main questions and will be glad to answer anything else you might have (as time allows). May I remind you to not shoot the messenger! I'm just a worker bee trying to get my assigned jobs completed.

FeeFi

01-22-07, 04:58 PM

WCIAchief

01-22-07, 05:05 PM

I think we are all past blaming WCIA and understand that corporate has caused allot of the negativity here. What we all really want is you at Full Power as soon as possible. I do have one question is the tower crew going to wait until the ice melts or are they just going to tie off and go?When I spoke to the crew leader this morning, he told me they were probably going to get back on the tower tomorrow and go for it. They are as tired of waiting for this as the rest of us are.

BuffaloBill

01-22-07, 05:35 PM

WCIAchief,

I think I speak for most of us here when I say that we really appreciate you taking the time to monitor this board and answer our questions. Much of the frustration expressed here is a result of lack of authoritative information and the resulting rumors that inevitably fill the void. Thanks for filling us in.

dacook96

01-22-07, 05:40 PM

4) I overlooked enabling the LFE channel on our Dolby 569 encoder. That was corrected this morning and we should be passing that channel for tonight's primetime.

My Sony surround sound receiver is now indicating a subwoofer channel with LFE. I'm receiving the channel 49.2 OTA in Springfield. Thanks.

llueveYescampa

01-22-07, 05:55 PM

Thanks for the info WCIAchief !

jdh8668

01-22-07, 05:59 PM

sebenste

01-22-07, 06:05 PM

ZJedi01

01-22-07, 06:15 PM

Trees, ugh. That's why I asked him about the antenna details. WCFN is at low power...that's an understatement! 1,810 measly watts. A coat hanger and a 9 volt battery at the top of their tower could approach that ERP... ;) :D

OK, seriously, he will have serious trouble getting it, but with the list of channels he showed, I thought it was clear he had an antenna. 80 miles from Champaign is probably about 20 miles off. Still, bottom line: he's going to have a lot of problems getting WCFN. BTW, the outdoor and amped customers you have...I would guess they have 4th generation tuners, and the multipath from that is probably hurting them (or VERY directional antennas or both)?

BTW, WCIA is still at 1.8 kw themselves. Hopefully, this week, they can power up to 1 mil. Antennas should be melting in Decatur with that blowtorch!

I live slightly northwest of Springfield in Athens. I have a medium directional antenna in my attic (radio shack U-75r). I can't pick up WCFN-DT to save my life or WCIA-DT (I'm hoping that changes with fullpower).

I can get WAND-DT, WICS-DT (even with them at low power), WRSP-DT, WBUI-DT, WSEC-DT, and if I rotate it to the north I get WMBD-DT and WEEK-DT.

Saying that WCFN is underpowered is an understatement. I likely have a better shot at WCIA full power than getting CBS HD off the subchannel on WCFN (at least until they go full power next year). Thank goodness for WMBD for the next couple of weeks.

rrrick8

01-22-07, 07:53 PM

Amen! We want you here, and we're glad to have you. Welcome!

If they delay too much longer, we'll have to monitor our GR2A's for tornado season for them, huh?

:p

Cap'n Preshoot

01-22-07, 08:18 PM

BTW, WCIA is still at 1.8 kw themselves. Hopefully, this week, they can power up to 1 mil. Antennas should be melting in Decatur with that blowtorch!
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but to keep things in perspective here that 1MW number is "erp" (effective radiated power). Likely the actual carrier power output at the flange (at full power) is something more on the order of 50 kw, if not a tad less.

That's one of the beautiful things about UHF antennas. Their small physical size at resonance makes it possible to construct a very high gain multi-element array that blankets an area with gobs of signal without melting the bearings in the electric meter in the process.

Vitale'sFakeEye

01-22-07, 08:52 PM

Good to see you here on the forum WCIAchief. :) Welcome and look forward to hearing more about the progress of the tower. Please feel free to stop by anytime.

skabadelic

01-22-07, 09:18 PM

OK to answer some of your questions:

My display: Samsung HL-S4676S (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7997858&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat95100050039&id=1155071784564).

I watch TV OTA with an antenna: TREK HDTVA (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7322587&type=product&productCategoryId=cat08084&id=1118844608800) I believe it's pretty directional.

My TV does allow entering of direct channel numbers, but only if it's already been 'found' by the autoprogramming function [in regards to .1etc channels, anyway].

Here is my location:

General (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/skabadelic/location1.jpg)
regards to Champaign (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/skabadelic/location2.jpg)
regards to WCFN (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/skabadelic/location3.jpg)
CEA antenna directions (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/skabadelic/location4.jpg)

If I aim it in the general direction between B and C, I get all channels mentioned earlier. Including the 14.1/2/3

dishrich

01-22-07, 10:03 PM

Saying that WCFN is underpowered is an understatement. I likely have a better shot at WCIA full power than getting CBS HD off the subchannel on WCFN (at least until they go full power next year). Thank goodness for WMBD for the next couple of weeks.

Not really at all - please understand that even at full power, WCIA-3 does NOT even get into Springfield with a grade B signal NOW. WCIA-DT is NOT going to be doing much better - & keep in mind you ARE even farther west of Springfield. As sebenste & I have discussed on previous posts here, I do NOT believe it is going to be in the cards for most folks in & west of Springfield to get WCIA-DT 48. But again, with the good news that it IS on WCFN-DT 53, it's really a moot point now. Of course with WCFN-DT being on low power, it still doesn't help out many folks, but that will be fixed before too long, as WCIAchief already posted. :)

And as you say - YOU (I'm sure) can easily pull in WMBD-DT with no problems, so YOU at least have another option. :) Over here on the southwest side of town, I can't even get a glimmer of any of the Peoria stations, analog OR digital. So the fact that WCFN-DT does have CBS-HD was welcome news for me.

WCIAchief

01-22-07, 10:32 PM

rrrick8

01-22-07, 10:45 PM

Thanks for the updates WCIAChief.

Please tells us your name isn't Bob and you recently moved here from the Mideast.

http://dunamai.com/Humor/BagdadBob/images/bagdad_bob_large.gif

dishrich

01-22-07, 10:52 PM

I watch TV OTA with an antenna: TREK HDTVA (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7322587&type=product&productCategoryId=cat08084&id=1118844608800) I believe it's pretty directional.
If I aim it in the general direction between B and C, I get all channels mentioned earlier. Including the 14.1/2/3

OK, well the bottom line is, you have several strikes against you:
-low height (or in your case NO height :p )
-inside antenna (NO matter how good it is, being inside a typical building structure will typically knock your signal levels down between 25-50%
-low power of the station you are wanting to get (in this case WCFN-DT)

I know many people don't like to hear this, but there really is just not a "magic" antenna that can overcome simple laws of signal physics. I get a chuckle out of people that spend $$$ on some of these "freaky looking" antennas & end up being disappointed that they don't deliver on the claims on the box it came in.

Now that being said, what you are using for an antenna is just about as good as most other indoor/set-top antennas, which is to say you just are NOT going to get the same performance as an outside antenna. However, I have seen other indoor antennas that, IMHO, would be better for your situation, such as these:

http://www.winegard.com/offair/sharpshooter.htm

http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm

I would probably go with the sharpshooter, since it IS amplifed as well & amplification would help your situation. If you want the squareshooter, go with the amplified one as well.

But do keep in mind, I don't GUARANTEE your final results - in many instances, this is trial & error. ;)
And again, do keep in mind that eventually, WCFN-DT WILL be on full power, which would probably solve your problem with this. (but I know you want it now...)

skabadelic

01-22-07, 10:59 PM

Yeah, thanks. I didn't expect to get any magic out of any of this. I am toally surprised at how many channels I do get, given my situation, to be hoenst. I guess I'm just being impatient.

Couple that with the fact that, as I've said a few times, I am totally new to all of this. I guess I wanted to make sure that lack of signal wasn't because I was missing something I could do. I also just wanted to know if it was even possible that I could get CBS right now, or if I should just give up until later.

Thanks for the help.

dishrich

01-22-07, 11:30 PM

Yeah, thanks. I didn't expect to get any magic out of any of this. I am toally surprised at how many channels I do get, given my situation, to be hoenst. I guess I'm just being impatient.

Actually, you ARE getting magic - considering that you are getting everything ELSE that you already are! :D :eek:
As I said, I lived out in that area a couple years ago (country club) & know about the area you're talking about.
As you said, I'm totally surprised as well.

mrmopar5287

01-23-07, 12:13 AM

I watch TV OTA with an antenna: TREK HDTVA (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7322587&type=product&productCategoryId=cat08084&id=1118844608800) I believe it's pretty directional.

You pull in all those stations with that indoor antenna?

You know, I've been complaining about my poor reception. I'm starting to think that the tuner built into my TV might not be the best. Do other people have good results using Samsung equipment?

If the government starts up the $40 voucher program they're talking about, I might try out a Samsung set-top box and see if they build more sensitive tuners.

dishrich

01-23-07, 12:33 AM

I appreciated your posts, particularly confirming that Insight is getting WCIA via a direct fiber feed. And as much as I have complained myself about the HD upgrade being as slow as molasses, I was pleasantly SHOCKED when someone posted that WCIA was also being carried in HD on WCFN-DT. The way your station had talked, nobody really seemed to show any concern for HD OTA viewers over here in Springpatch, so you'll understand my surprise.

I know you're busy, but a couple more questions that perhaps you could answer:

- You mentioned about the WCFN-DT upgrade for 2008. What are Nexstar's plans as far as making the WCFN signal HD as well? I am assuming that since you guys put WCIA-HD up on WCFN-DT, that the actual WCFN signal will stay in SD on both transmitters. (48.2 & 53.1) I am sure I speak for many people, that we would NOT want to see WCIA-CBS HD degraded by trying to shoehorn in WCFN-HD, but I don't want to assume anything. :)

- Does WCIA send out a separate SD & HD video feed, or are you guys just sending the HD feed out to your SD transmitter "zoomed-in downconverted", as well as the Insight fiber feed? (correct my terminology if it's wrong) The reason I ask, is that whenever you guys are running HD/widescreen CBS prog, the CBS logo on the right side is missing on the SD feeds, at least on Insight cable 3 & DirecTV, while it is still there on the HD feed. It would also appear that DirecTV is still picking up your 49.2 signal (as I believe they always have) & is just doing a "zoom-in downconvert" to your HD signal.
Is this how WCIA is planning on leaving this for SD viewers/providers? I know you have other cable systems that are still pulling WCIA from your 49.2 feed over on the west side of IL. I talked to someone in Cantrall on Mediacom & he told me yesterday that now most of the prog on SD 3 is now in letterbox.

I would think that CBS would be upset that, in essence, you guys are cutting off their logo to all the SD viewers on all HD prog. (not that I mind at all :D )
Other SD CBS station feeds that are up in HD (such as CBS Chicago & St.Louis) are NOT cutting off the logo, so I have to assume it's happening at your place.

Sorry for the length of my questions & thanks again for posting/responding.

llueveYescampa

01-23-07, 08:20 AM

Today (1/23) I am finally getting WCIA. Did they boost it?

It is only 63% for me, (before was below 49%) but is steady. Good PQ.

Thanks WCIA.

sebenste

01-23-07, 11:11 AM

The transmitter installer we've had on site keeps telling me that our 1MW signal is going to be visible in Chicago. He says he's seen dozens of stations at that power and when they light up their antenna he's consistently impressed by the coverage; in fact he wouldn't be surprised if the FCC starts coming back and reducing the TPO (transmitter power output) of some of these blowtorches once we actually get up and running and the actual coverage is realized.

So, the moral of the story is, don't count out our signal from Champaign (actually 10 miles west of Champaign) until we actually crank it up and see how far the signal really travels. Though I'm sure an outdoor directional will still be required in the Springfield vicinity, I'm pretty optimistic at the reception potential. I look forward to hearing your results.

By the way our new antenna is omnidirectional, except for whatever slight distortion we get from the tower since it's a side mount. I really hope the tower guys can get up there tomorrow.

We have been operating on reduced power (even lower than the 1.8 kW our bug zapper normally outputs) due to a power amp failure on WCIA-DT. I received it from the manufacturer late last week, so get to put it in tonight. You guys might see a couple more percent signal strength! Wooohooo!
Hello Chief,

First, as noted above, one viewer has noticed an improvement---you folks in Champaign, see if you can get it now...

I agree that Springfield has a decent shot at getting it. The FCC maps for digital TV assume no amplifier. Put an amp on it outside, and UHF can go 80 miles with no problem. A friend who lives just north of Waterman in southern DeKalb county locks Quad Cities and Peoria, both 80+ miles out, with his large Winegard combo antenna on a 30' tower and a ChannelMaster 7777 amp. It can be done.
And it can also be done with something less, if it is installed well.

But *Chicago*? No way, except on tropo. 60 miles west of Chicago, only once have I gotten blips from WYZZ-DT, halfway between Peoria and Bloomington. That's a blowtorch you can get in Champaign, and southwest of Chicago, but not in Chicago. So sorry if I must be incredibly less than optimistic, but that stupid curvature of the Earth thing kind of hurts you there. ;)

That said, you serve C-U, Decatur and Springfield, and I still think you should do reasonably well out there. Rich and I will soon find out! :D

heavyharmonies

01-23-07, 11:33 AM

Anyone from East Urbana receiving yet? I'll try a scan when I get home tonight.

WCIAchief

01-23-07, 11:55 AM

Thanks for the updates WCIAChief. Please tell us your name isn't Bob and you recently moved here from the Mideast.No worries rrrick8, I'm not blowing smoke up your skirt!

WCIAchief

01-23-07, 12:01 PM

I know many people don't like to hear this, but there really is just not a "magic" antenna that can overcome simple laws of signal physics. I get a chuckle out of people that spend $$$ on some of these "freaky looking" antennas & end up being disappointed that they don't deliver on the claims on the box it came in.I couldn't agree more. RF is RF, regardless of how fancy a box the antenna comes in. Just because it says "HD antenna" doesn't make it possess some special qualities over and above a plain old antenna. It still receives RF, NOT some magical digital signal. The digital magic is only obtained once the RF is demodulated. If you're living in a semi-fringe area, buy a directional antenna from Radio Shaft and put it on a tower. Second choice, hang it in your attic. Either way you'll be getting much more signal than an indoor, set-top antenna will EVER deliver.

Also, line amps generally don't work, because they amplify not only the desired signal, but all the other crap in the spectrum that comes in right along with the station you want to see. Get a good signal from a directional in the first place and save your money.

WCIAchief

01-23-07, 12:16 PM

- You mentioned about the WCFN-DT upgrade for 2008. What are Nexstar's plans as far as making the WCFN signal HD as well? I am assuming that since you guys put WCIA-HD up on WCFN-DT, that the actual WCFN signal will stay in SD on both transmitters. (48.2 & 53.1) I am sure I speak for many people, that we would NOT want to see WCIA-CBS HD degraded by trying to shoehorn in WCFN-HD, but I don't want to assume anything. :)The only way to squeeze two HD streams into 19.4 MB is to squeeze the hell out of them, probably 8MB each, MAX. That will look terrible and be virtually unwatchable (19.4 MB is the maximum payload available in terrestrial 8-VSB modulation). As it is, we're giving WCIA-HD 15MB and WCFN-SD only 3.5MB, and there were still visible artifacts in the Sunday football game. You can guess how lousy it would look if we cut that 15MB in half!

- Does WCIA send out a separate SD & HD video feed, or are you guys just sending the HD feed out to your SD transmitter "zoomed-in downconverted", as well as the Insight fiber feed? (correct my terminology if it's wrong) The reason I ask, is that whenever you guys are running HD/widescreen CBS prog, the CBS logo on the right side is missing on the SD feeds, at least on Insight cable 3 & DirecTV, while it is still there on the HD feed. It would also appear that DirecTV is still picking up your 49.2 signal (as I believe they always have) & is just doing a "zoom-in downconvert" to your HD signal.
Is this how WCIA is planning on leaving this for SD viewers/providers? I know you have other cable systems that are still pulling WCIA from your 49.2 feed over on the west side of IL. I talked to someone in Cantrall on Mediacom & he told me yesterday that now most of the prog on SD 3 is now in letterbox.Due to the way we get our signal to DirecTV, namely WCFN-DT, we are stuck with forcing their Sencore IRD-3381 (actually OUR Sencore IRD-3381- but that's another story!) into full-screen, cropping to avoid letterboxing. This works well when the source programming is 4:3, but anything widescreen suffers. Insight is a different matter. Insight's fiber optic unit we use to get our signal from the studio in Champaign to their Champaign headend can only handle 19.4 MB IF the analog video/audio input is also in use. Insight plans to stop using the analog inputs and switch to the ASI (digital) stream for Champaign, that will allow us up to 75 MB bandwidth. When that happens, we will give them WCIA-HD at 15 MB and WCIA-SD at 8MB and have no aspect ratio conversion to deal with. Anyone else who picks us up from WCFN-DT will be stuck with downconverting and fixing the aspect ratio for SD systems.[/quote]

I would think that CBS would be upset that, in essence, you guys are cutting off their logo to all the SD viewers on all HD prog. (not that I mind at all :D ) Other SD CBS station feeds that are up in HD (such as CBS Chicago & St.Louis) are NOT cutting off the logo, so I have to assume it's happening at your place.

Sorry for the length of my questions & thanks again for posting/responding.Not sure that CBS would be upset about the logo getting cut off, but even if they do, there's nothing we can do about it other than force cable companies and DirecTV to revert to letterboxing. Joe Sixpack would probably be more upset with a miniature picture than losing the CBS logo. I DO know that CBS gets VERY upset if affiliates convert the 1080i to 720p, which is much easier and prettier to compress. That's what I've heard from some of our other Nexstar stations who tried it.

BuffaloBill

01-23-07, 12:18 PM

Today (1/23) I am finally getting WCIA. Did they boost it?

It is only 63% for me, (before was below 49%) but is steady. Good PQ.

I'm able to lock back on again to 49.2 as well from SW Spfld. (70-78). Just hope it is reliable enough to switch my DVR over to that channel for HD programming.

WCIAchief

01-23-07, 12:20 PM

Hello Chief,

First, as noted above, one viewer has noticed an improvement---you folks in Champaign, see if you can get it now...Our ERP went from around 1kW to the full 1.8kW, so that should make some difference.

But *Chicago*? No way, except on tropo. 60 miles west of Chicago, only once have I gotten blips from WYZZ-DT, halfway between Peoria and Bloomington. That's a blowtorch you can get in Champaign, and southwest of Chicago, but not in Chicago. So sorry if I must be incredibly less than optimistic, but that stupid curvature of the Earth thing kind of hurts you there. ;)

That said, you serve C-U, Decatur and Springfield, and I still think you should do reasonably well out there. Rich and I will soon find out! :DAgain, I'm only repeating what the transmitter installer told me, and he's put in dozens of these high-power rigs. He said the 8-VSB RF seems to travel much better than NTSC, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

WCIAchief

01-23-07, 12:24 PM

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but to keep things in perspective here that 1MW number is "erp" (effective radiated power). Likely the actual carrier power output at the flange (at full power) is something more on the order of 50 kw, if not a tad less.

That's one of the beautiful things about UHF antennas. Their small physical size at resonance makes it possible to construct a very high gain multi-element array that blankets an area with gobs of signal without melting the bearings in the electric meter in the process.I think our licensed TPO is 40.9 kW. The power bill will still be a HUGE increase from what we've had with our nice low-VHF NTSC transmitter!

jdcolombo

01-23-07, 12:25 PM

Let me add my welcome and thanks for your getting on-line with us, WCIAChief. I think most of us understand the technical difficulty of getting everything up and running, and although many of us were impatient with the corporate decisions that delayed the upgrade, we're all tickled that WCIA is now in the HD fold.

And I think you'll find that we can help you with things like how far the signal is getting out, whether the encoder settings are working with our receivers, what receiving antennas work where, etc.

Looks like I can finally ditch my subscription to Canada's StarChoice dbs service. Never did like the Detroit CBS station much, anyway!

John C.

sebenste

01-23-07, 12:35 PM

Our ERP went from around 1kW to the full 1.8kW, so that should make some difference.

Again, I'm only repeating what the transmitter installer told me, and he's put in dozens of these high-power rigs. He said the 8-VSB RF seems to travel much better than NTSC, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Hi Chief,

OK. Well, did they go up the tower today? I don't like these 25 MPH winds I see down there...

WCIAchief

01-23-07, 12:39 PM

Many thanks to everyone here for the warm welcome and helpful information. Regardless of who owns my station, I am still proud of WCIA and always strive to provide our viewers the best signal possible. It's refreshing to read insightful, knowledgeable posts that actually give us real feedback instead of the usual e-mails that seek only to blame and cut us down.

Thanks again!

WCIAchief

01-23-07, 12:42 PM

Hi Chief,

OK. Well, did they go up the tower today? I don't like these 25 MPH winds I see down there...I just got off the phone with the crew leader, and they did actually go up this morning. He said the tower is still coated with ice, but they worked anyway... hard working crew. The winds were even higher up on the tower, but they plugged away anyway. He told me just now he was going to start stacking the line this afternoon, so I'll get some pictures and post them on our website.

Here's the link if you guys don't already have it: WCIA HD Update (http://www.wcia.com/highdef.asp) Yes, as you might have guessed, I'm the author.

rrrick8

01-23-07, 12:55 PM

No worries rrrick8, I'm not blowing smoke up your skirt!

The only time in my life I wore a skirt was when I was 10 years old and went trick-or-treat'n dressed up as a girl. When I knocked on doors I had at least a dozen people ask me why I didn't get dressed up. :mad:

That ended my cross-dressing career. (Not that there's anything wrong with that!) :cool:

Anyway...picking up signal finally here in Danville. Low 40-ish on the meter but at least it's registering.

Dr_EluSivE

01-23-07, 01:18 PM

I know its probably in this thread somewhere, but could someone please post up, or send me a list of the QAM in the clear channels for Insight in springfield, My tuner is missing some of them.

Dr.

dishrich

01-23-07, 01:29 PM

I know its probably in this thread somewhere, but could someone please post up, or send me a list of the QAM in the clear channels for Insight in springfield, My tuner is missing some of them.

WRSP-HD FOX 69.3 (note if you have a basic only or modem only trap in your line, you probably will NOT be able to get this)
Toon Disney 82.5
WSEC-HD PBS 100.2
WAND-HD NBC 100.3
WSEC Create 100.5
SoapNet 110.5
WILL-HD PBS 117.3
WAND Weather 118.4
WICS-HD ABC 119.2
WCIA-HD CBS 119.59
WEIU-PBS Charleston 127.9
WILL Create 127.55
WBUI-HD CW 128.1

Dr_EluSivE

01-23-07, 03:35 PM

WRSP-HD FOX 69.3 (note if you have a basic only or modem only trap in your line, you probably will NOT be able to get this)
Toon Disney 82.5
WSEC-HD PBS 100.2
WAND-HD NBC 100.3
WSEC Create 100.5
SoapNet 110.5
WILL-HD PBS 117.3
WAND Weather 118.4
WICS-HD ABC 119.2
WCIA-HD CBS 119.59
WEIU-PBS Charleston 127.9
WILL Create 127.55
WBUI-HD CW 128.1

Thanks a bunch, I wish there was a way to Search within a thread, Or is there a way to sticky this In a thread?

Dr.

chiefillini99

01-23-07, 04:29 PM

Seems like everyone on here is either in ChamBana or toward or in Springpatch. Can anyone guide me on my journey to receiving HD OTA from Paxton, 30 miles North of Champaign? Any and all help would be much appreciated. I recently cancelled Mediacom to go with Dish and now Mediacom gets WCIA in HD. I would love to watch the Superbowl in HD. Thanks for any suggestions. :D

jask

01-23-07, 04:32 PM

Getting signal here in north danville (just a few miles west of airport) on Sony TV's tuner but can't pick it up on my D**tv HR10-250's tuner. I get all the rest of the locals (ota) fine on both tuners. I am hoping for stronger signal!!

JFKLS1

01-23-07, 04:54 PM

WCIAchief, thanks for the information. It is refreshing to see informed posts instead of generic nonsense.
I have to give those tower guys props, man I wouldn't want to have to go up on those towers.
Just lookin at the pics make me queasy..... :cool:

Stevenage

01-23-07, 05:12 PM

Thanks a bunch, I wish there was a way to Search within a thread, Or is there a way to sticky this In a thread?

Dr.

Hey Doc,

If you didn't notice before there are two search buttons at the top of the thread, one is a general search and the other, lower, one will search this thread. I missed it too at first.

Steven

stanswx

01-23-07, 05:30 PM

I tried 3.1 again this afternoon and the signal is now up to 71%. (last time i tried it was 31%) So the 800 watt difference made quite the improvement. I'm in N. Champaign using a cheapy radio shack beam around 20 feet. Can't wait to see it at full power! Keep up the good work!

jdcolombo

01-23-07, 06:11 PM

novanut

01-23-07, 06:46 PM

Cap'n Preshoot

01-23-07, 06:50 PM

I think our licensed TPO is 40.9 kW. The power bill will still be a HUGE increase from what we've had with our nice low-VHF NTSC transmitter!
In their zeal to sell advertising (and help defrey those costs) we can only hope that the urge to multicast, at the expense of HD bandwidth & PQ, is held at bay. The local NBC affiliate here (a Post/Newsweek stn) at one point had 4 subchannels running with only 12.8 Mbps for the main channel. They found themselves voted worst HD signal in town. When the regs changed on 1/1/07 they dropped 2 of the subchannels (doppler radar & SD simulcast) but plan to reinstate them as soon as the new EAS equip. arrives. Apparently ad revenue speaks louder than viewers. :(

Anyway, welcome to AVS Forum. Nice to see the broadcasters take an interest!!

Cap'n Preshoot
Former P1-17-11478 (with memories of the image orthicon and a prehistoric era)

Cap'n Preshoot

01-23-07, 07:03 PM

we are new to this site, and we live in mahomet. Using a TERK indoor amplified antenna. connected to our dish network high deffenition reciever. We are getting all of the locals you are getting but i'm looking for WCIA 3 on my reciever. If you know the transmit channel (number) to scan for WCIA 3. Thanks,

48.1

What are you using for a receiver? There should be an option to scan for digital locals.

novanut

01-23-07, 07:08 PM

its an 811 and there is an option to scan. But i can type a transmission number if i know it.

JD23

01-23-07, 08:28 PM

Yep, signal is back up to 70 for me, as well, here in Savoy.

John C.

The power increase has made a difference for me too. In North Champaign, I am pulling in 81-84 with an indoor Radio Shack antenna (this antenna has been excellent for me btw). Before the increase, I was around 70.

mrmopar5287

01-23-07, 09:00 PM

Bonbon

01-23-07, 09:39 PM

I am receiving no signal here in Urbana

jdcolombo

01-23-07, 09:39 PM

Here is an off topic question, but maybe some knowledgeable posters here can help.

Does anyone know of manufacturers who will be making HD DVR equipment in the near future? I know that Tivo has their Series 3 recorder, but I'm not really desiring to pay $800 retail - plus be locked into a subscription model. I want something that's got an ATSC tuner built in, and storage space for maybe 20 hours or more of HD content. I don't care about built-in program guides, because I just want it to work like a VCR where I tell what time and channel to record. I would only use a few hours each week to time shift some things, like when Heroes and 23 is on at the same time.

Has anyone else noticed that the market for HD DVR boxes has actually decreased? At one point Sony had two models for sale, but now all they have is a $2,000 home theater PC setup. Is that the way the market is going, to home theatre PCs? Would I be better off building a HTPC myself?

LG Electronics once made the 3410, an external HD-DVR. Don't know if it's still available and I think it was around $500 when introduced - might be units on e-bay. Other than that - you're right; there just aren't many stand-alone units available, because most folks get DVR service via cable or satellite.

I don't think that a media PC is quite "there" yet for HD recording, unless you are an obsessive tweaker. I've thought about going this route on occasion, but I just want something I can turn on and have it work. Maybe Windows Vista will have this functionality built in (I don't know) - though you'd still need a hardware HD tuner card.

John C.

jask

01-23-07, 10:00 PM

I live in north danville a few miles west of the airport. I have at least a 30 ft tower. For channel 3.1, I get a signal around 56 - 59% on my sony tv's tuner , but still nothing on my D** HR10-250's tuner. I don't get anything less than 75% on all other local OTA channels. Even CW 23.1 is around 83%. 17.1 = 75%. The numbers are a little less on my HR10. Thanks for all the info from everyone!

Melanotheron

01-23-07, 10:10 PM

we are new to this site, and we live in mahomet. Using a TERK indoor amplified antenna. connected to our dish network high deffenition reciever. We are getting all of the locals you are getting but i'm looking for WCIA 3 on my reciever. If you know the transmit channel (number) to scan for WCIA 3. Thanks,
Novanut - Any luck picking up WCIA OTA? I live in Mahomet, too, and haven't been able to receive a signal yet. Just wondering if you are.

Mel

les_S

01-23-07, 10:46 PM

Tonight for the first time I am getting 3.1 and 3.2 on my Sony HD. I have scanned every night for a week and FINALLY I am getting HD from 3.1. SWEET!!! Just in time for the Super Bowl.

novanut

01-23-07, 11:04 PM

hi mel....no luck as of yet...getting all my other locals anywhere from 70%up to 89%..we are north of the tower by 6 miles so it should be a strong signal when we see it.steve

vudurob

01-23-07, 11:06 PM

Here in Mahomet I'm picking up 3.1 at about a 73% signal. Before the 800kw bump it was hovering between 50-60%, so the increase definitely made a difference for me. Looks great.

Melanotheron

01-23-07, 11:12 PM

I figure I am about 8 miles from the tower, but haven't had any luck yet. I am also picking up all of the other locals, so I can't figure out why I can't get WCIA. Strange.

Mel

mrmopar5287

01-24-07, 12:58 AM

Here in Mahomet I'm picking up 3.1 at about a 73% signal. Before the 800kw bump it was hovering between 50-60%, so the increase definitely made a difference for me. Looks great.

Read the post again from WCIAchief. That was a boost of 800 watts to 1.8kW, not an 800,000 watt boost.

mdamberger

01-24-07, 03:45 AM

I figure I am about 8 miles from the tower, but haven't had any luck yet. I am also picking up all of the other locals, so I can't figure out why I can't get WCIA. Strange.

Mel

Geez, when WCIA goes full 1MW, you will be able to pick up that baby with a paper clip within a 20 mile radius. I literally saw this example with a LG plasma 5th gen receiver, at 10 miles from the transmitter inside a studio (KNME) building. The transmitter was doing about 250kw on top of the mountain site, this might help. But having concrete and electrical equipment near by, this was impressive. You could only disturb the signal if you touched the paper clip, waving your had or walking behind the plasma did nothing to disrupt the signal. 8-VSB has come a long way, and more improvements are on the way with A-VSB. I bet those in Springfield will be able to pick up WCIA directly with a decent outdoor antenna setup. I know I was able to pick up St. Luis stations on occasion, particularly in the summer mornings from Springpatch. It seems that with most stations now lit up to full authorized power; they are reaching much further then their analog counterparts. Making for some easy reception in adjacent markets like Peoria etc.. If your willing to put up a decent antenna setup, you can in most cases have a few choices if not all networks are available. I'm really interested to know how high VHF (7-13) will fair in reception ease, will it carry to the fringe and not have noise issues in the future. After all, the electrical grid is increasing at a rate of 2% every year, adding to the noise floor. Bad for low VHF, but man made noise can creep into high VHF.

rrrick8

01-24-07, 08:18 AM

I'm really interested to know how high VHF (7-13) will fair in reception ease, will it carry to the fringe and not have noise issues in the future. After all, the electrical grid is increasing at a rate of 2% every year, adding to the noise floor. Bad for low VHF, but man made noise can creep into high VHF.

I have no problem getting a great signal without interruption from WILL-DT (12.1,12.2., 12.3) which is on VHF-9, here in Danville.

I'm suppose to be just inside the fringe area WILL-DT coverage map (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1115235.html) at 60 miles away.

Of course, having a mammoth RS VU-210 sitting about 30 feet up in the air, helps. :D

Melanotheron

01-24-07, 08:24 AM

Geez, when WCIA goes full 1MW, you will be able to pick up that baby with a paper clip within a 20 mile radius.
Which brand of paper clip would you recommend?

rrrick8

01-24-07, 08:49 AM

Which brand of paper clip would you recommend?

The rabbit ears of course

http://www.sxc.hu/pic/m/t/th/theliberat/355617_paper_clip.jpg

:cool:

sjk8990

01-24-07, 10:35 AM

Has Insight picked up the WCIA-HD channel yet? While I could probably get it OTA I would rather get it via Insight.

rrrick8

01-24-07, 10:39 AM

Has Insight picked up the WCIA-HD channel yet? While I could probably get it OTA I would rather get it via Insight.

It's been mentioned numerous times in the last few pages.

Look for WCIAchief posts.

Vitale'sFakeEye

01-24-07, 11:03 AM

I needed a tv for the bedroom so I went to BB and found a 27" LCD tv made by Insignia. I think that is BB brand. Anyway, WITHOUT any antenna hooked up I scanned to see what digital channels I could get for grins. Unbelievably, I am able to get ALL local HD channels. ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, and WILL! I live in Northwest Champaign. Now, this may be old news but I thought it was pretty cool to get HD OTA without an antenna. Maybe someone can help me with one question about WCIA HD? I receive ABC 15-1, NBC 17-1,17-2, Fox 27-1, but CBS HD is 90-4. Why is CBS HD 90-4 and not 3-1? Oh yea, I also get CW and I think that channel is 88-1. One more last thought, I can not believe how many damn music channels it scanned. I would have to say I have over 50 of those audio channels. Most of which are crap.

mkjnovak

01-24-07, 03:05 PM

Music channels?!?
You have cable or satellite, don't you?
If so, I think they are providing your locals and hence you're not getting them OTA.
Mike

Vitale'sFakeEye

01-24-07, 03:28 PM

Mike,

Yes you are right. I should have said that I was talking about sat. when the music channels came through.

heavyharmonies

01-24-07, 07:08 PM

Out in far East Urbana (approximately where Main curves to meet University), I'm pulling in a 70 signal on 3.01. woot!

JD23

01-24-07, 07:31 PM

Has Insight picked up the WCIA-HD channel yet? While I could probably get it OTA I would rather get it via Insight.

It's channel 90.4 in Champaign.

novanut

01-24-07, 07:51 PM

pulling in both 3.1 and 3.2 from mahomet tonight 69%...all other locals are pulling great too!did some changes ...moved my antenna (terk indoor) to the attic long run of cable with the turk booster.i have a tri level so got me up two floors made all locals stronger.

Bonbon

01-24-07, 10:17 PM

I'm still not picking up WCIA HD, I'm in Urbana

chiefillini99

01-24-07, 11:23 PM

mraub

01-24-07, 11:29 PM

In most cases the -1 channel is the HD broadcast. -2 is often the SD version.

WCIAchief

01-25-07, 12:13 AM

I went ahead and got an antenna from Radioshack and mounted it this evening. I am pulling 15-1, 17-1, 17-2, 23-1 and 23-2. Can you tell me if there is a difference between the -1s and the -2s? Is one standard and the other HD and if so can you tell me which is which. Sorry for the long winded question but I am still kinda new to all this. :oThe PSIP information sent along with the video data has to contain basic information about the stream in question. Whether the PSIP data is generated in the encoder and passed through or inserted downstream from an external device (PC or other), it has to be assigned a major channel number and a minor channel number. In most cases, the major channel number corresponds to the analog channel- in our case, that is 3. The minor channel is chosen to designate the various streams within the digital signal. In our case, WCIA-HD is obviously the primary, so it gets a minor channel of 1 while WCFN-SD gets 2. In Springfield it's just the opposite, since the license issued by the FCC to that station pertains to WCFN. It then becomes the primary with minor channel 1 and WCIA is given 2.

mkjnovak

01-25-07, 04:04 AM

AFAIK 23.2 is identical to 23.1, just SD.
17.2 is the dedicated weather channel.
27.2 is SD, but with descriptive video - service for the blind, narrator describes the action on screen for certain programs.
WILL is unusual in that 12.1 is the national PBS HD channel; 12.2 is the digital SD of analog 12, and 12.3 is the Create channel.

Mike

Cap'n Preshoot

01-25-07, 07:08 AM

The PSIP information sent along with the video data has to contain basic information about the stream in question. Whether the PSIP data is generated in the encoder and passed through or inserted downstream from an external device (PC or other), it has to be assigned a major channel number and a minor channel number. In most cases, the major channel number corresponds to the analog channel- in our case, that is 3. The minor channel is chosen to designate the various streams within the digital signal. In our case, WCIA-HD is obviously the primary, so it gets a minor channel of 1 while WCFN-SD gets 2. In Springfield it's just the opposite, since the license issued by the FCC to that station pertains to WCFN. It then becomes the primary with minor channel 1 and WCIA is given 2.
Understood. However, the current argument among the 'HD Purists' is that there's insufficient bandwidth to carry both (-1 and -2) in HD, even with newer encoders. By "intelligent" use of null suppression (you can't suppress them all) it has been shown that the "HD" stream can be successfully squeezed down to about 14.5 Mbps & still fool 99% of the viewers 99% of the time, but any less than that (or without null suppression) you'll have macroblocking on rapid camera pans, fast-motion shots, i.e., sports and on the first second or so of every new shot containing lots of detail. This is what has local viewers in my market area screaming.

The ability to "assign" the channel number in the PSIP information brings up another question, however. The question is this: When the day comes in Feb '09 when the plug gets pulled on the VHF (the real channel 3) transmitter, what then do you call yourselves? Of course the call letters do not change, but do you then remove "Channel 3" from your brand? What protection is there from someone wanting to start up a new station in the 60~66 mhz spectrum and logically calling themselves "channel 3"?

chiefillini99

01-25-07, 10:23 AM

Thanks for all your help. I ran a scan this morning and I added 27-1 this morning. Do you know if they power down their antenna after prime time or is there another reason why I was not getting it last night after 10 pm?

dishrich

01-25-07, 10:27 AM

sebenste

01-25-07, 11:29 AM

Well, I remember seeing a post on some board (might have actually been on this board somewhere) that a couple stations are using a new encoder that claims to be able to squeeze TWO HD streams on one channel & swears you CAN'T tell that both HD streams are on one channel. Frankly, I'm skeptical about it myself, but since I haven't personally seen it, who knows... :eek:

Yeppers...

http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv/texas-station-first-hd/

http://www.hdtvok.com/2007/01/22/kxii-dt-picture-quality/

Read the second one, from a viewer. Interesting!

PinkSplice

01-25-07, 12:16 PM

Is WICD-20 analog on reduced power as well? I remember a post a while back that said that WICD-DT was on reduced power due to ice storm damage.

WCIAchief

01-25-07, 12:37 PM

Well, it definitely sounds interesting. I know that statistical multiplexing does allow dynamic compression based on content, just didn't think 2 HDs (let alone an additional SD) would fly in 19.4 MB. I did notice they were compressing CBS @1080i and Fox @720p, and as I've heard elsewhere the 720p is much easier to compress than 1080i. I wonder how their encoder works with two 1080i streams?

As a side note, I don't know that I'd ever buy another encoder from Harmonic. We bought two of their SD units a couple years ago, and when one of them failed they were VERY unhelpful since we didn't have one of their overpriced maintenance agreements. This is one of the biggest problems we broadcasters face- more and more companies are no longer "broadcast" manufacturers but "data" manufacturers. What this means is we no longer get companies who support their product years after it is purchased, such as Harris (Thomson Grass Valley now) or Broadcast Electronics. We can't even get a tech to TALK to us without the agreement in place. I guess I come from the old school where if you buy something from a company, they support it, at least with phone support. That seems to be the exception these days.

Cap'n Preshoot

01-25-07, 01:05 PM

Yeppers...

http://broadcastengineering.com/hdtv/texas-station-first-hd/

http://www.hdtvok.com/2007/01/22/kxii-dt-picture-quality/

Read the second one, from a viewer. Interesting!
Well, also having never personally seen it........ ;)
The theory sounds good (in the first URL) because if I understand correctly the mux is able to dynamically allocate its bandwidth. That certainly could work unless you run into the admittedly rare case where both HD signals have lots of detail and motion. Squeezing-in another SD channel might also be doable as long as the two high bandwidth components are able to command all that they need and at the ultimate expense of the SD signal.

Cap'n Preshoot

01-25-07, 01:09 PM

As a side note, I don't know that I'd ever buy another encoder from Harmonic.

Your counterparts here in Houston have pretty much the same opinion. Drive down the price of the hardware then gouge the customer for support. I think Cisco might have started that concept with their "SmartNet" contracts.

dishrich

01-25-07, 02:20 PM

Is WICD-20 analog on reduced power as well? I remember a post a while back that said that WICD-DT was on reduced power due to ice storm damage.

It's just the digital channel - & IIRC the damage was NOT from the ice storm itself, but the "ice" (on the tower) storm is preventing tower guys from fixing the damage.

Melanotheron

01-25-07, 02:34 PM

WCIAchief: I am getting the HD feed via Mediacon (Mahomet) and I have noticed that the past couple of nights, I am getting occassional video glitches in the picture. Basically it's macroblocking every now and then but I am wondering if the situation will improve once you boost power at the transmitter? I also discovered last night that I can pick up WCIA HD "in the clear" via my QAM tuner, but that feed is also suffering from the video drop outs. Thanks for your help.

Mel

JFKLS1

01-25-07, 04:53 PM

Anyone heard any news on WICS-DT?
The weather probably hasn't been good enough yet to get up there.
I am languishing without ABC-HD.....:(

Dr_EluSivE

01-25-07, 06:18 PM

Anyone heard any news on WICS-DT?
The weather probably hasn't been good enough yet to get up there.
I am languishing without ABC-HD.....:(
Its probably gonna be a while. The HD's antenna on the tower has to be repaired or replaced, and it has to come to the ground for that. Its still on the air, but at very low power, cable still has it though.

Dr.

rrrick8

01-25-07, 08:38 PM

Now today, 1/25, I haven't been able to pull in WCIA all day. It just barely flashes on the screen halfway then returns to "Searching for signal". :(

Hopefully it's a short term problem.

Melanotheron

01-25-07, 09:56 PM

Well, WCIA is very bad on Mediacom tonight, too. My guess is that the signal strength is low. I can't get it OTA at all in Mahomet.

Mel

sortapatient

01-25-07, 10:12 PM

Well, WCIA is very bad on Mediacom tonight, too. My guess is that the signal strength is low. I can't get it OTA at all in Mahomet.

Mel

I live a few miles north of Mahomet and have been pulling in 74% OTA all evening.

Melanotheron

01-25-07, 10:35 PM

I live a few miles north of Mahomet and have been pulling in 74% OTA all evening.
That's good to know...maybe I will try moving my antenna or something. I don't know why I can't seem to get it. Thanks.

Mel

BuffaloBill

01-26-07, 12:26 AM

Now today, 1/25, I haven't been able to pull in WCIA all day. It just barely flashes on the screen halfway then returns to "Searching for signal". :(

I had a good signal when I checked a couple of times this afternoon, but it dropped about 10-15 points this evening. Getting some audio, but unwatchable with freeze-ups. Seems like they went back to low power again.

WCIAchief

01-26-07, 08:06 AM

All I can say about the reception problems is- regardless if the signal is 1 kW or 1.8 kW (still running at 1.8 kW after the repair), it's STILL a very small signal only intended to cover the city of license, and even then just barely. You guys won't see a consistently reliable signal until we crank up the blowtorch.

The tower guys are humping, they've got a couple hundred feet of transmission line stacked and almost have the reinforcement completed. Saturday I'm meeting our transmitter installer at the site to make the connection from our RF switch up to the horizontal run of line that terminates inside the building. After that we're just waiting on the tower guys.

rrrick8

01-26-07, 08:34 AM

Thanks for the update chief. Not trying to bitch about it, just seeing if others had lost the signal they were receiving a couple of nights ago.

We got a sample taste, now we want more. ;)

So do you feel good about having everything going good by Superbowl Sunday?

datortore

01-26-07, 12:58 PM

Hi,

I have the LG LST-3510A HDTV Tuner/DVD Player and am having trouble picking up some of the HD signals.

OTA I live in SW Champaign and have a large Radio Shack 5' antenna directed to the West in my attic hooked to the $50 Channel Master preamp. I can get ABC (17), NBC (15), CBS(3) and WB(23) in HD, but not FOX. WILL(12) HD comes in messy, it used to come in OK. I also used to be able to pick up FOX from Bloomington, but never from Urbana. Any thoughts on how to improve my reception?

I also have Insight cable so I tried the QAM tuner and am only able to pick up 77.2 PBS WEIU, 77.4 FOX WCCU, and the movie channels 82.3 and 82.4 (as well as the music stations). The movie stations do not come up through my autoscan, and when they are up I cannot get them into my "channel list" So two questions,
1) Has anyone with this tuner been able to get the Insight HD cable stations 73.3, 73.4, 73.5, 74.3, 74.5, 74.49, 90.3, 90.4, 111.5 and 111.6?
2) Has anyone been able to add a station such as 82.3 to their channel list?

Many thanks for any help,

Dan

dishrich

01-26-07, 03:19 PM

mraub

01-26-07, 03:26 PM

I also live is SW Champaign. I can't get Fox 27 at all, but get a consistent lock on Fox 55 out of Springfield. I think 55's transmitter and antenna are much more capable than 27's.

mrmopar5287

01-26-07, 03:57 PM

Understood. However, the current argument among the 'HD Purists' is that there's insufficient bandwidth to carry both (-1 and -2) in HD, even with newer encoders. By "intelligent" use of null suppression (you can't suppress them all) it has been shown that the "HD" stream can be successfully squeezed down to about 14.5 Mbps & still fool 99% of the viewers 99% of the time, but any less than that (or without null suppression) you'll have macroblocking on rapid camera pans, fast-motion shots, i.e., sports and on the first second or so of every new shot containing lots of detail. This is what has local viewers in my market area screaming.

The ability to "assign" the channel number in the PSIP information brings up another question, however. The question is this: When the day comes in Feb '09 when the plug gets pulled on the VHF (the real channel 3) transmitter, what then do you call yourselves? Of course the call letters do not change, but do you then remove "Channel 3" from your brand? What protection is there from someone wanting to start up a new station in the 60~66 mhz spectrum and logically calling themselves "channel 3"?

Fox used to have macroblocking problems when the broadcast two program streams. Watching Bones, I'd notice that a fast scene break would leave the picture fuzzy for an instant. Once they got rid of the second channel, there were no problems.

I think squeezing two 720p channels into a single HDTV stream would be easy, if the data allocation for the bandwidth includes playing with the frame rate. I know that sports in 720p has ultra smooth action due to the 60 frames per second. I don't know whether 720p production of any regular TV series has shifted from the traditional 30 frames per second that is used for analog TV. It seems that if 720p can accommodate 60 frames per second, it should be extremely easy to use the bandwidth for two 720p shows that each use 30 FPS. TV shows that shoot on film (I think 24 does this) still use traditional 24 FPS film stock like a hollywood movie. They do this to make the TV show seem more film like, to add realism. There is no advantage to be gained by trying to broadcast faster than the native frame rate, so 720p 24fps leaves quite a bit of bandwidth that can probably be used for a complete second HDTV data stream.

1080i compression to that level is probably out of the question, because that would essentially mean broadcasting a 1080p 60fps stream - not possible, and not part of the ATSC standard. 1080i is a holdover format from the days of vacuum-tube interlaced scanning. I wish it had never been included in the ATSC standard, but 20 years ago when the move towards HDTV started no one predicted that flat-panel progressive scan displays would be the market leaders by now.

Vitale'sFakeEye

01-26-07, 04:44 PM

You will NOT get any "movie channels" or any digital channels other than music, or local digital channels/subchannels/HD, as they are all scrambled. Most of the channels you are finding with your tuner are scrambled, so they will come up as valid channels, but will NOT be viewable.
I think somebody posted a list of the clear QAM channels for Champaign, but since I'm in Springfield, I can't tell you want they are, as ours are on different channels than yours.

Ummm, I get the "movie channels" and all I am set up for is basic cable. Interestingly, I can not get the "movie channels" on my tv in the bedroom. That tv is an Insignia brand and when I punch in the channel number a message comes up saying "scrambled signal." I do not want to say what brand tv I have in my family room in case someone is monitoring this and somehow is able to put in a code so I no longer receive the channels. Here are the QAM channels I get here in Champaign, all come in loud and clear:

73.3 FOX HD
73.4 WAND Weather
73.5 NBC HD
74.3 ABC HD
74.49 WILL HD
74.5 CREATE WILL DT
77.2 WEIU
77.4 FOX
82.3 In demand pay per view movies (yep, channel comes in clear)
82.4 In demand pay per view movies (yep, channel comes in clear also. Watching Talladega Nights presently)
90.3 CW HD
90.4 CBS HD
111.5 Toon Disney
111.6 MTV 2

and of course, the damn music channels. Way too many to list.

Stevenage

01-26-07, 10:58 PM

I got a chance to play with a friends Sharp HDTV w/QAM. This is what I found (basic cable only!). I am sure there is more but the tuner on this thing is real slow and I ran out of time. Seems to be a lot of differences in channel line ups.

48.1 & 119.2 CBS HD
69.1 & 55.1 Fox WRSP HD
82.1 JETIX Cartoons SD
82.5 Toon Disney SD
100.1 NBC HD
100.2 PBS HD WSEC
100.3 PBS Create
119.1 ABC HD

Couldn't find WB or MTV2

Cap'n Preshoot

01-27-07, 01:46 PM

I got a chance to play with a friends Sharp HDTV w/QAM. This is what I found (basic cable only!). I am sure there is more but the tuner on this thing is real slow and I ran out of time.
The "speed" of changing channels has a lot to do with the tv having to switch display modes, from 1080i to 720p, to 480i.

Cap'n Preshoot

01-27-07, 08:39 PM

ICouldn't find WB or MTV2
Is WB even still out there? Locally WB & UPN gave way to CW, incl station facilities, tower and all.

llueveYescampa

01-27-07, 10:39 PM

I am noting a little boost in WCIA....

is it just me?
have any one notice that?

heavyharmonies

01-27-07, 11:16 PM

I am noting a little boost in WCIA....

is it just me?
have any one notice that?

I'm seeing 72 up from 70 in far east Urbana.

montypythizzle

01-28-07, 01:30 AM

can someone tell me when i plug in my insight cable with my qam/atsc tuner i get channels but i don't get cbs
but i get like soap channel music channels toon disney and what not but not CBS WTF!!!

montypythizzle

01-28-07, 01:32 AM

and is there any antennas you guys can recommend (so i can try and get cbs) FOR CHEAP!! like CHEAP?

les_S

01-28-07, 01:34 AM

Currently have a large Radio Shack Antenna in my attic. On a clear night I get:
3.1, 12.1, 15.1, 17.1, 23.1, and a weak 55.1. In my attic I can not put a rotor on the Antenna due to a large chimney that is in the middle of the attic. My problem is on those not so clear nights like the last couple, I can't get 17.1, 23.1 or 55.1 at all.
Ideally I would like to install my antenna on the roof of my house with a rotor, but due to the height, need a lift or 40ft ladder and the steepness no installers will do it.
Will I help or hurt myself if I install my antenna with rotor onto my garage roof that sits next to my house? I figure the antenna is 30-35ft in the air in my attic, but on my garage it will only get about 20ft in the air.

Thoughts?

montypythizzle

01-28-07, 01:36 AM

OMFG literally OMFG OMFG!!!!
i did a digital setup again and i got it!!!!!!!!!

thanks wcia for not being cheap asses

montypythizzle

01-28-07, 01:38 AM

Csi !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I Cant Wait Thanks Wcia Where Do I Put My Complements???????

montypythizzle

01-28-07, 01:38 AM

mkjnovak

01-28-07, 06:20 AM

Currently have a large Radio Shack Antenna in my attic. On a clear night I get...I can not put a rotor...on those not so clear nights like the last couple, I can't get 17.1, 23.1 or 55.1 at all.
Ideally I would like to install my antenna on the roof...no installers will do it.
Will I help or hurt myself if I install my antenna with rotor onto my garage roof...?
Have you tried putting an amp on the attic antenna? If you can get the channels sometimes, that just might do it. It also seems the easiest solution if it works.

Being outside might be more than enough compensation for being lower. Unfortunately, antenna reception is pretty unpredictable - too many variables in terrain, obstacles, nulls, etc. There is simply nothing equal to trying.

Mike

WCIAchief

01-28-07, 09:47 AM

Csi !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I Cant Wait Thanks Wcia Where Do I Put My Complements???????Please send small bills to WCIA and address your envelope to the chief engineer.

Just kidding! Glad you can pick us up. Hopefully we'll have the big rig up by the Super Bowl, but I'm not so sure with this cold, windy front moving in. Very risky to haul a 1 or 2 ton antenna up a tower in 30 MPH+ winds.

Cap'n Preshoot

01-28-07, 10:24 AM

Will I help or hurt myself if I install my antenna with rotor onto my garage roof that sits next to my house? I figure the antenna is 30-35ft in the air in my attic, but on my garage it will only get about 20ft in the air.
Outside will generally always be a grand improvement to inside even though the garage roof would amount to lower elevation. Just the mere fact that you cannot rotate inside the attic would be a reason to put it on the garage.

Inside your attic, depending on type of construction, you're going to encounter typicaly 20db or more attenuation. (that's 100:1 signal ratio).

Get it outside any way that you can. Even sitting on a 5' tripod in the driveway will be an improvement over attic installation.

On the garage roof I'd try to get all the elevation possible with my tripod while keeping the mast pipe as short as possible (pipe bends easily in the spring winds). Somewhere I've seen a 10' tripod. For the sake of rigidity, have only enough of a mast stub sticking out of the tripod to allow you to install the rotor. Ditto keeping the length of mast above the rotor also as short as possible. Most large antennas have support bracing underneath to support the boom. No problem, just mount the antenna upside-down and allow the mast to stick as far above the antenna as needed to secure it so the bracing supports the boom from above. Works exactly the same but with less wind load leverage. It may look strange at first, but come the March winds yours will still be standing when some others aren't.

When anchoring the tripod to the garage roof the idea is you want to screw it into the roof joists and not merely into the shingle and OSB decking. Since this may present logistical problems (roof joists are seldom where you need them) then use some reinforcing (2 x 6, etc) on the inside (again assuming you can get to it). Barring all else then you'll need to resort to guying it with steel rope (stranded cable) not aluminum clothesline wire. I really hate the look of guy wires though, so I'd put forth as much effort as I could to do proper anchoring. Don't forget to place the tar strips under the legs of the tripod before anchoring to prevent water leaks. Work safe, have a buddy help you or hire a professional installer. DON'T FORGET TO GROUND IT!!

les_S

01-28-07, 10:54 AM

Thanks for all the great info guys.

In my attic I do have three 10db amps hooked up to it to pull in stations, without these amps I can't pull in anything unless its pointed directly at the tower. My hopes of being outside I would eliminate all of this. I live in Clinton so I don't know if that changes anyones thoughts about inside or outside?

montypythizzle

01-28-07, 12:47 PM

Please send small bills to WCIA and address your envelope to the chief engineer.

Just kidding! Glad you can pick us up. Hopefully we'll have the big rig up by the Super Bowl, but I'm not so sure with this cold, windy front moving in. Very risky to haul a 1 or 2 ton antenna up a tower in 30 MPH+ winds.
:P

but i dont have an antenna i just have it hooked up via cable to insight
what is different from last week why wouldnt they have the channel already?

Bondvillian

01-28-07, 01:14 PM

Does anyone else have a sound lag problem when viewing HD ota? I have an LG 37lc2d purchased from Good Vibes. It's like watching those old Godzilla movies with english dubbed over. Good Vibes says its the TV stations and it is a common problem but no one I have talked to has a similar problem. I talked to several station engineers who said their transmitters are fine.

PinkSplice

01-28-07, 01:52 PM

It's just the digital channel - & IIRC the damage was NOT from the ice storm itself, but the "ice" (on the tower) storm is preventing tower guys from fixing the damage.

Thank you. I also forgot that WICS is the proper call, WICD is the Champaign station. I should note that even in this winter of tropo discontent, WAND comes in regularly in the pre-sunrise window. Normally, WICS would appear at the same time; but in the last month it has not.

montypythizzle

01-28-07, 03:02 PM

Bondvillian

01-28-07, 04:08 PM

The sound lag is on all channels. Changing the channel does not eliminate the problem. I've also unplugged the TV for about 5 minutes to reset it with no change.

heavyharmonies

01-28-07, 11:04 PM

Anyone else seeing a huge signal jump for WAND? All throughout the NFL season I had a dickens of a time tuning WAND for Sunday night games; my signal was routinely between 60 and 70 and would cut out repeatedly. Tonight I tuned it in and am seeing a rock solid 91-92.

That's a big difference...

vudurob

01-29-07, 07:58 AM

I live in Mahomet and checked last night; WAND was locked in at 97. Before it had been in the 60s and 70s here as well.

jdh8668

01-29-07, 08:29 AM

I live in Mahomet and checked last night; WAND was locked in at 97. Before it had been in the 60s and 70s here as well.

I wonder if it's because the February ratings period starts Wednesday? They want to reach as many people as they can for the next 4 weeks. Just a thought.

montypythizzle

01-29-07, 11:31 AM

i will make a list of channels i get in Decatur when i get home

montypythizzle

01-29-07, 05:22 PM

chiefillini99

01-29-07, 11:08 PM

dishrich

01-30-07, 10:42 AM

Decatur, Il

12.1 Will-hd
14.2 Wsec-d2 (looks Like Will-hd Says Network Knowledge)
14.3 Wsec-d3 (knowledge Network (same As Create Will-dt)
17.1 Wand-dt
17.2 Wand-sd
20.1 Wics-dt
23.1 Wbui-hd
48.1 Wcia-hd
55.1 Wrsp-dt
81.1 Insight Background (where Menu Usually Is)
82.5 Toon Disney
89.21-25 90.21-25 92.21-29 102.21-40 Digital Music Without Background
118-4 Wand Doppler Radar
120.5-51 Digital Music With Background
127.9 Weiu
127.55 Will-dt Create

I Hope This Helps People :o

There Are Some Channels That Were Detected But Those Must Be Scrambled Ones

Welll first of all, the Insight system in Decatur is EXACTLY the same as in Springfield, so the channel list that I posted back a page should work over there as well.
The thing that I noticed in YOUR list, however, is that it appears that your TV is remapping the HD locals to their actual OTA numbers via the PSIP data. However, that will NOT work for all TV's, like the Sonys - on mine & others on this board, they come up on the actual channels that Insight is transmitting them on.

heavyharmonies

01-30-07, 11:19 AM

WCIA HD was down to about a 60 signal last night in East Urbana. CSI:Miami kept cutting out.

TromboneKenny

01-30-07, 12:18 PM

dishrich

01-30-07, 03:05 PM

Any idea when zap2it (Tribune Media Services) is going to be updated with WCIADT on channel 912? I'm glad I can tune to the Insight channel, since I only get 30-0% signal for the OTA with my indoor antenna in SW Champaign -- but until the guide gets updated the TiVo functionality on that channel is limited. I don't know who's responsible for updating that guide service. WCIA? Insight? TiVo?

Well, TMS STILL doesn't list WCIA-DT 3.2, (MYTV) nor WCFN-DT 49.2, (CBS-HD) which is how we over here in Springpatch WILL be getting CBS-HD. Since they don't send listings for these channels, people with HD Tivo's (D* based) cannot record either of these channels OTA, depending on if you live in Champaign or Springfield. :(

jstock

01-30-07, 08:22 PM

Just a note of what I have got here ota, just started playing with this stuff today, so have to lots to learn from all of you. Live in Fisher, Il north west champaign co. using a winegard 1000 with preamp only 10 ft up outside, will go higher when it warms up! Samsung t451.

Wcia Dt...3.1 solid since around 4 many dropouts before
Wcfn Dt...3.2 solid
Will HD.....12.2 Solid since around 4:30, before no signal
Will SD......12.3 Solid
Wicd HD....15.1 solid
Wand Dt....17.1 solid
Wand SD....17.2 solid
Wbui HD.....23.1............. lots of pixels
Wbui DT......23.2.............Lots of pixels
Wccu Dt........27.1.............Pixels
Wccu SC.........27.2...........Pixels

as said just a note, hope this is useful to someone

montypythizzle

01-30-07, 09:37 PM

yeah FOX was killing me last night during prison break

but csi was fine here miami isnt as good as NY though

gosh i still havent seen NY in HD yet...

WCIAchief

01-31-07, 12:14 AM

It is NOT looking like we'll be operating the new transmitter on Sunday. High winds have kept the tower crew off the tower for the last four days, so we are no closer to getting this rig on the air than we were last time I posted here. I was afraid this would happen when I found out we were getting pushed back last summer. Winter, as we all know who live around here, is really lousy for wind and unpredictable weather.

If Zeus happens to come down and assist the tower guys, I'll let everyone here know.

robby69

01-31-07, 12:29 AM

Is anyone else on here using the VIP622? I am trying to figure out how to get the guide to show what is on the OTA channels. It works fine for 17 and 23 but it does not work for 15 and 27 as the ABC and Fox affiliates that are broadcast on Dish are 20 and 55. Any help or advice would be much appreciated.

I have a VIP622. You will only get the guide from Dish with the EXACT local channels that you get on dish. I am in in Springfield, and get guide info for WICS, WRSP, and WAND. I do not get channel info on WCIA. I put my local SD channels in an HD Local FAVORITE list, along with my OTA local channels. I then have a network guide listed on the SD's, but choose the OTA digital for HD.
There is no way to get channel info for any OTA station that is not on your normal Dish supplied SD locals.

thumperxr69

01-31-07, 02:05 AM

yeah FOX was killing me last night during prison break

but csi was fine here miami isnt as good as NY though

gosh i still havent seen NY in HD yet...

The eye candy is much more appealing in Miami. I will admit the plots and acting are subpar at best.

T

thumperxr69

01-31-07, 02:08 AM

I am getting 49-2 WCIA at about 70% signal strength. I am located about 15 miles north of Springfield. This is great except that the guide information for this channel is blank since I have D*. Does everyone else who has D* have this problem???

On a sidenote which I have seen mentioned here before that WSEC channels 14-1 and 14-2 are switched which makes it a challenge to timeshift. :mad:

T

dishrich

01-31-07, 10:28 AM

I am getting 49-2 WCIA at about 70% signal strength. I am located about 15 miles north of Springfield. This is great except that the guide information for this channel is blank since I have D*. Does everyone else who has D* have this problem???

Yes, it is screwed up on BOTH the HD Tivo & HD DVR+ - except with the DVR+, you CANNOT do a manual OTA channel scan at all, so you cannot even GET this channel through the DVR, period! :mad:
The guide info is ALSO screwed up for 3.2, which affects subs on the Champaign side of our area. (that's how they get MYTV OTA)

datortore

01-31-07, 11:02 AM

dishrich

01-31-07, 01:45 PM

As for Insight, I can still only get the movie channels. So now my question is, if I get the digital cable box from insight with the standard (i.e. non HD) subscription, then will I be able to get the HD signals for CBS, ABC, NBC, WILL, FOX and WB. My understanding is that their cable box only allows me to access the on demand movies, not the HD signal.

The ONLY way to get it through Insight's box, is you must get their HD DVR box, which is $13 a month. The "standard" digital box does NOT do HD, nor does Insight have a "plain HD digital box" - only the HD DVR box does HD. You do NOT need to sub to any other packages to get the local HD/digital broadcast signals.

BTW, did you try direct entering the channel #'s that I listed a few posts back, to see if your TV would get them? :confused:

TromboneKenny

01-31-07, 02:24 PM

The ONLY way to get it through Insight's box, is you must get their HD DVR box, which is $13 a month. The "standard" digital box does NOT do HD, nor does Insight have a "plain HD digital box" - only the HD DVR box does HD. You do NOT need to sub to any other packages to get the local HD/digital broadcast signals.
As I understood it, you only needed to get the Insight Digital tier of service and you'll get the local HD/digital broadcast channels over the wire. They'll be mapped whereever Insight wants to put them, but they'll be there. So you might have an SD digital box, but the digital HD channels should be in there. That's not my setup, but I can't see how they could do it otherwise.

My guess on some of the feedback here for people with Basic cable getting the digital channels is that they might also have Insight Broadband, which changes what kind of filter is applied at the tap. To get the higher frequencies the cable modem needs, they inadvertantly open up the digital range (at least for non-encrypted stuff.) I can't remember if I read that in this thread or one of the TiVo forums.

If you have equipment that supports it, you can get a CableCard and not have to rent any of their set top boxes (DVR or otherwise.) The CableCards are $1.50/mo.

-TBK

dishrich

01-31-07, 03:11 PM

As I understood it, you only needed to get the Insight Digital tier of service and you'll get the local HD/digital broadcast channels over the wire. They'll be mapped whereever Insight wants to put them, but they'll be there. So you might have an SD digital box, but the digital HD channels should be in there.

You are not understanding how it works & you do NOT have order ANY tier of "digital service" to get the signals in your house. :confused:

The HD & digital broadcast signals ARE "on the wire" as you put it, but an SD box will NOT get those signals anyway, as they are NOT made to do so. So, it makes absolutely NO difference if you have one or not.

My guess on some of the feedback here for people with Basic cable getting the digital channels is that they might also have Insight Broadband, which changes what kind of filter is applied at the tap.

Totally incorrect - again, having Insight BB has NOTHING to do with if you can get the HD/digital broadcast locals. Again, it's very simple...

-If you ONLY have BB service, they use a trap that ONLY knocks out basic & expanded basic analog signals. (2-72 here) All the HD/digital signals are x-mitted in the channels ABOVE expanded basic service, so the trap does NOT kill them. Yea, Insight is probably NOT happy that modem-only subs can get them, but since they are NOT encrypted, there's not much they can do about it, but since ONLY subs w/clear QAM tuners can get these channels, I don't think it's a big deal to them.

-If you ONLY have BB & broadcast basic (limited basic) TV service, a different trap is used to knock out JUST the expanded basic analog channels. (24-72) Again, since the trap does NOT knock out digital frequencies, a QAM TV will be able to pick these signals up.

-If you ONLY have broadcast basic (limited basic) TV service & NO modem, they STILL use the same trap above. Again, the digital signals will flow right into your house.

-If you have basic & expanded basic TV service & no modem, they do NOT put ANY traps in your line, so obviously the digital signals will flow right in as well.

I've actually touched & seen these 2 traps used - there is not a "different trap" applied that either allows or disallows digital service either way. Again, there is NO need to order any kind of "digital service" to get the HD/digital broadcast signals, period. They are ALWAYS on your line regardless. While I realize Champaign may have a different channel line-up, Insight still does it the same way on both sides, although the filters they use over there may vary slightly by a few channels.

If you have equipment that supports it, you can get a CableCard and not have to rent any of their set top boxes (DVR or otherwise.) The CableCards are $1.50/mo.

True, but since any CC TV ALREADY has a clear QAM tuner in it, what IS the point of doing this? Other than mapping these channels to the same #'s as on Insight's digital boxes, it doesn't really serve ANY other purpose. (unless he wants to get any encrypted digital channels) Frankly, it's just as easy to make a QAM channel list, as it is the Insight assigned ones. (& gee, I already DID that for people here... :D ;) )

montypythizzle

01-31-07, 06:24 PM

hey dishrich why don't we get any other channels even if we have their "digital" cable

and will i get any of the HD programs on my tv when the main tv gets the hd receiver and the HD pak(yeah they spell weird)?

btw congratulate me guys i get the HD receiver and pak tomorrow!!!!

dishrich

01-31-07, 08:21 PM

hey dishrich why don't we get any other channels even if we have their "digital" cable

Not sure what you mean by this. If what you mean by "digital" cable, you are actually getting the digital BOX Insight offers, then you would - but you also have to PAY for their "digital choice" programming package. Just obtaining the box from them will NOT automatically get you more digital stations. (I assume you mean basic stuff like the additional Discovery channels, BBC America, etc)
If you have a cablecard ready TV, then you can get one from Insight - but you STILL have to pay for the "digital choice" pak as well.

If you are asking why you can't get them with your QAM TV, it's because ALL of those channels are encrypted & a QAM TV can't descramble them - you either need the digital box, or a cablecard to unscramble the stations.

and will i get any of the HD programs on my tv when the main tv gets the hd receiver and the HD pak(yeah they spell weird)?

You're kind of confusing me - if I understand what (I think) you're asking, you WILL get the HD programs on whatever set you are putting the HD box. You will also get the local HD's, since those are free anyway. BUT, you should be aware that unless you also take Insight's digital choice tier, you will NOT get ESPN2, MHD or THT-HD. (don't ask me why Insight did this this way... :rolleyes)

If you're asking me if you have any other HD QAM sets in your house, will they also get HD programs? They will ONLY get the HD locals - again, if you want the HD pak on those extra sets, you'll either need another HD box, or a cablecard.

Did I understand what you're asking? :confused:

montypythizzle

01-31-07, 09:28 PM

Not sure what you mean by this. If what you mean by "digital" cable, you are actually getting the digital BOX Insight offers, then you would - but you also have to PAY for their "digital choice" programming package. Just obtaining the box from them will NOT automatically get you more digital stations. (I assume you mean basic stuff like the additional Discovery channels, BBC America, etc)
If you have a cablecard ready TV, then you can get one from Insight - but you STILL have to pay for the "digital choice" pak as well.

If you are asking why you can't get them with your QAM TV, it's because ALL of those channels are encrypted & a QAM TV can't descramble them - you either need the digital box, or a cablecard to unscramble the stations.

You're kind of confusing me - if I understand what (I think) you're asking, you WILL get the HD programs on whatever set you are putting the HD box. You will also get the local HD's, since those are free anyway. BUT, you should be aware that unless you also take Insight's digital choice tier, you will NOT get ESPN2, MHD or THT-HD. (don't ask me why Insight did this this way... :rolleyes)

If you're asking me if you have any other HD QAM sets in your house, will they also get HD programs? They will ONLY get the HD locals - again, if you want the HD pak on those extra sets, you'll either need another HD box, or a cablecard.

Did I understand what you're asking? :confused:
you sort of hit the nail on the head
i am pretty sure i don't get the digital choice
the tv in front room will have the HD box on it we will have the HD pak
i am asking why i don't get noggin and encore OLN and military channel on my QAM/ATSC tuner tv not the detailed specifics but in laymens terms

yes we are upgrading the "digital box" that doesn't even have s-video and there is still fuzz wtf why is that also?

AndyM77

01-31-07, 09:32 PM

Anybody else noticing audio dropouts on 27-1? Wondering if it's the channel, or my HR20...

dishrich

01-31-07, 09:57 PM

i am asking why i don't get noggin and encore OLN and military channel on my QAM/ATSC tuner tv not the detailed specifics but in laymens terms

Because those digital channels ARE SCRAMBLED - you CANNOT get them with your QAM tuner, period.
You MUST have a digital box to get them, or stick a cable card in your TV - if your TV accepts it. (I don't KNOW if yours does or not; not many do actually...)

OK, let's try this another way - you know how on an analog cable-ready TV you CANNOT get the analog HBO or Showtime channels, because the picture is SCRAMBLED? SAME principle, only in digital, ok? ;)

yes we are upgrading the "digital box" that doesn't even have s-video and there is still fuzz wtf why is that also?

Because it is NOT MADE FOR HI-DEF signals - just like your older, analog TV's are NOT MADE for HI-DEF signals.

OK, let's try it this way - digital does NOT always equal Hi-Def.
There is standard def digital & Hi-Def digital - make sense now?
The box you currently have ONLY passed standard def signals.

TromboneKenny

01-31-07, 09:59 PM

-If you ONLY have BB service, they use a trap that ONLY knocks out basic & expanded basic analog signals. (2-72 here) All the HD/digital signals are x-mitted in the channels ABOVE expanded basic service, so the trap does NOT kill them.

-If you ONLY have BB & broadcast basic (limited basic) TV service, a different trap is used to knock out JUST the expanded basic analog channels. (24-72) Again, since the trap does NOT knock out digital frequencies, a QAM TV will be able to pick these signals up.

-If you ONLY have broadcast basic (limited basic) TV service & NO modem, they STILL use the same trap above. Again, the digital signals will flow right into your house.

-If you have basic & expanded basic TV service & no modem, they do NOT put ANY traps in your line, so obviously the digital signals will flow right in as well.

Okay, thanks for the info. It's not clear from any of their documentation the clear QAM channels come along with any cable service. I like that scenario better than the ones I hypothesized. My interpretation from the FCC page I read led me to believe they only had to provide clear QAM for locally broadcast channels if they were offering the customer digital cable. That certainly sounds logically from a screw-the-customer perspective. :)

True, but since any CC TV ALREADY has a clear QAM tuner in it, what IS the point of doing this? Other than mapping these channels to the same #'s as on Insight's digital boxes, it doesn't really serve ANY other purpose. (unless he wants to get any encrypted digital channels) Frankly, it's just as easy to make a QAM channel list, as it is the Insight assigned ones. (& gee, I already DID that for people here... :D ;) )

Right. My point that was to get the HD pak (encrypted digital channels) you don't have to have the DVR at $13/mo if you have CC support. $1.50 is a cheaper alternative.

The fact it maps it to a nation guide channel list is a cheap convenience, especially for those of us with HD TiVos. (That being said, there are lots of people venting on the TiVo boards that they should allow user configurable channel mapping, so you can tell your box that 123-45 is actually 904, as listed in their guide service. Then the DVR functions like season passes, wishlists, suggestions, etc. would work on that channel. I'm stuck in that boat right now because TMS doesn't know that 912 is WCIADT but it knows 3-1 is.) I don't think TiVo's giving that a lot of priority because CCs are so cheap and they expect us to need them for our encrypted channels - and we do.

Learning more about this stuff everyday,
-TBK

TromboneKenny

01-31-07, 10:07 PM

yes we are upgrading the "digital box" that doesn't even have s-video and there is still fuzz wtf why is that also?

Very few channels in Insight's Digital 2.0 package are actually digital. The ESPN on 23 (in the basic tier) and 506 (in the digital tier) are both tuning the same analog channel. They just map it twice to regroup it, or make you think you're getting more than you are. Last time I scanned, every analog channel 1-72 that shows up also in the digital number range is just analog again. I suspect that the fuzz was because of that? (This is the opposite of my folk's setup with Charter in St. Louis -- Charter remaps the digital broadcast over the basic numbers, so when you tune to channel 5, you're getting a digital signal instead of an analog.)

Check out 219 (WILL Create) or 189 (WEIU PBS) ... those are actually digital but don't require Digital Choice or a Pak. Are those fuzzy? The Insight Channel Lineup off their new web design (ick - no prices anymore!) pretty clearly illustrates this.

-TBK

dishrich

01-31-07, 10:11 PM

Okay, thanks for the info. It's not clear from any of their documentation the clear QAM channels come along with any cable service.

That's kind of the way Insight (& most other cable co.) WANT it. They do not want you to KNOW that you could actually SAVE money. ;) :p

Right. My point that was to get the HD pak (encrypted digital channels) you don't have to have the DVR at $13/mo if you have CC support. $1.50 is a cheaper alternative.

And MY point is - you do NOT even need to get the "HD pak" to get the CC - you CAN just pay the $1.50, to get the "convenience of Insight's channel mapping" & be done with it. If you ONLY want the HD locals, what is the point of spending the extra $8 on the HD pak? :confused: :confused:

The fact it maps it to a nation guide channel list is a cheap convenience, especially for those of us with HD TiVos.

Yes, but now you're mixing apples & oranges. The whole topic I was discussing was related to QAM & CC TV's - NOT Tivo or other DVR technologies. If someone needed this for an S3 Tivo, then yea, I'd agree go for the CC. BUT, if all you are using is a QAM TV, what difference DOES it make if you know that CBS-HD is on ch 912, or is on 119.59. (OK, you DO have to punch in a couple more digits - I guess if THAT'S worth an extra $1.50 a month, then so be it :confused: )

dishrich

01-31-07, 10:15 PM

Last time I scanned, every analog channel 1-72 that shows up also in the digital number range is just analog again. I suspect that the fuzz was because of that?

Yes, you ARE correct with Insight. HOWEVER, there are many cable co. that ARE duplicating their full analog lineups digitally. (It's call Analog/Digital Simulcast, or ADS in the biz ;) ) If Insight ever wakes up & figures it's 2007, eventually they TOO will start to do this, since they at least have the number scheme ready to go on all their digital boxes.

weddlz

01-31-07, 11:55 PM

Ok, I am trying to understand this whole insight thing. I want hd locals. I will be getting DN and they do not provide locals in hd. My house is currently wired for BB, not in use, and I have basic with no frills or box required. Can I change my service to the "lifeline" basic 12 or 13 channels for the locals and still get the locals in hd? Can I use the unfiltered line of bb for hd?

montypythizzle

02-01-07, 12:00 AM

i know that digital isn't HD but i was expecting no snow :P and a s-video and maybe a toslink or coax audio out maybe i was expecting too much out of their "digital" service

btw my tv isn't HD but has ATSC/QAM tuner in it and it scales stuff down to 480i nicely and has great audio
i would expect the same quality on the tv in the living room which is HD yeah i was surprised of what the digital box brought although i like the clock...

montypythizzle

02-01-07, 12:01 AM

dishrich

02-01-07, 12:25 AM

I want hd locals. I will be getting DN and they do not provide locals in hd.

You ARE aware that NO satellite receiver (E* OR D*) will pick up HD signals from a cable system, as they do NOT receive QAM cable signals. If you have plans of DVR'ing HD locals thru the cable via a DN DVR - forget THAT! You will have to use an antenna & pull them in off-air.

My house is currently wired for BB, not in use, and I have basic with no frills or box required.

Are you saying you actually have "expanded basic" cable NOW (about 70 channels) with no set top boxes? (called "classic cable" by Insight)

Can I change my service to the "lifeline" basic 12 or 13 channels for the locals and still get the locals in hd? Can I use the unfiltered line of bb for hd?

ONLY if your TV has a QAM tuner in it, OR if you have an external QAM tuner. (fairly rare) As long as you have this, you can even downgrade to NO TV service (only BB) & still get HD locals. And as I just told you above, NO satellite receiver will work for this.