Is there any way to improve the vertical sharpness? I can easily get rid of the peaking in the horizontal direction with the sharpness control but nothing (of the suggested tweaks) seems to markedly improve the peaking in the vertical direction. PKNG seem to shift the peaking around. With pkng at 0 the whiteness on the sharpness test pattern all seems to be above the black line.

On a side note. The 100 clarity 0 reallity setting really hurts DSS basketball for me. The blurring is just too great. It is impossible to recognize faces. Strangely both mild and standard or even vivid provide a better balance of artifacts and detail than the calibrated pro.

Thanks for all the good work,
Eric

Originally posted by Dixie_F
Is there any way to improve the vertical sharpness? I can easily get rid of the peaking in the horizontal direction with the sharpness control but nothing (of the suggested tweaks) seems to markedly improve the peaking in the vertical direction. PKNG seem to shift the peaking around. With pkng at 0 the whiteness on the sharpness test pattern all seems to be above the black line.

On a side note. The 100 clarity 0 reallity setting really hurts DSS basketball for me. The blurring is just too great. It is impossible to recognize faces. Strangely both mild and standard or even vivid provide a better balance of artifacts and detail than the calibrated pro.

Thanks for all the good work,
Eric


I found the same thing when I applied the tweaks. I tried a custum setting that is much better.

So what was your custom setting? I really need to do something to improve basketball. It is suprising how bad it looks when other things look good and even more suprising is that when basketball looks good, hockey does not. ACK!

Cheers,
E

Here is an interesting thread on DRC:

The Spot On DRC (http://www.***************.com/htsthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB35&Number=344881&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

I would suggest you look at the following test patterns to see what is going on:

- Bouncing Snell & Wilcox pattern on VE
- Microsoft WHQL test patterns in DVD Demystified
- 200 TVL Avia resolution pattern

UMR: Can you comment on the vertical sharpness issue? The avia disk mentions that vertical patterns that are similar to sharpness on the horizontal axis are a result of deinterlacing and scaling. Do you not see this on the sharpness test patern on your machine? Do you know of any SM parameters that would reduce this?

Thanks again,
Eric

The settings I suggested give full DVD resolution both in the verticle and horizontal axis from my DVD player. I have not seen any improvement with other settings on the test patterns I was using. I

t is be possible in video mode that something else is better. I have not looked much at that mode since it looks reasonable to me.

UMR,

First let me thank you for all of your hard work and experimentation with your new very expensive piece of electronics....I have implemented all of your tweaks (Pic-Boost2, Pic-Boost3, 2170P-4 GAMM/BLK, 2170P-4 SHUE/SCOL, 2170P-4 SPIC and 2170P-1) except for the color decoder and custom values tweaks. My Digital cable form comcast is now very enjoyable to watch...getting HD cable on Tuesday...just in time for the Superbowl. Is there a reason you chose "WARM" as the color setting for the tweaks? My TV on Digital Cable appears nicer to the eye with the "NEUTRAL" and even the "COOL" settings after the tweaks. Do you think the color decoder adjustments will fix this? DVD looks awesome with any of the settings; although, I have only watched using "WARM". Like you suggested, I used the "WARM" setting when adjusting the USER MENU settings with the AVIA disk. Do you have any suggestions? Should I take the time to see if I have any "RED PUSH" before moving on? How long do you think I should wait to make the color decoder adjustments...now have about 20 hours of viewing on the bulb? Any suggestions or comments from you, UMR, or anyone else would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks and have a great night!

Hi UMR :-)

You have a extremely very good understanding of this unit and access to excellent equipment - cool ! Thankyou also for posting the concise & time consumed data for improvement options to us GWII groupies as well !

I'm going to look for a test pattern disk, note my "out of box" settings and adjust some. I'm also curious on "the possible damage due to mis adjustment". What can possibly get damaged ? Being the LCD is a dark to light window pixel array and the light source is one of 3 colors from a white light source spit into 3 primarys what is it that can be damaged ? Is it speculation ? I guess the unknown is a possible concern - but just wondering if anyone knows.
I can see photo tubes emitters/sensors being senitive to excess voltage/light, but LCDs is new for me to grip on for wear exposure items.
I'd assume the designer's circuit supplies (voltage & current) would be no more than the LCD spec recommended ratings.
Maybe theres a site somewhere, with LCD studies info, or on the very LCDs utilized in the GWII.

Secondly, this GWII has real top of line color impact to me with just minor "dark" contrast issues. I realise there is a limited overall throughput light level contrast ratio for the LCD. I'm wondering if "in small part", it is due to non linear response of the LCD in the darker levels. "If" this is the case, is it possible then that either Sony or the LCD supplier, will improve the darker linearity with an improved compensation circuit ? One would have thought this research was already done in fine detail though. If such improvement was to be made by Sony in a next generation, the technical GWII user "may" benefit from that circuit information. But I suspect they have already obtained the best linearity possible (2nd generation) My supplier felt warranty replacement of the faulty LCD's was likely more expensive than a replacement GWII - ouch.

I'm not sure if light leakage is an issue on this set, but I'd assume Sony incorporated some kind of "polariser like" feature to the light source & screen destination with both aligned to one another. Unfortunately a big screen sized polariser can be expensive for that location. Other methods are an attempt but better than nothing.

Our house really likes this GWII ! FAR better than our previous 20" & curious of a tweak improvement. I've notice some pixel sized noise like elements on an ocassional HBO or SHO HD channel & dropped brightness & sharpness to elliminate it for the moment :)

Best regards all, kbat

Originally posted by medbusiness
...I have implemented all of your tweaks (Pic-Boost2, Pic-Boost3, 2170P-4 GAMM/BLK, 2170P-4 SHUE/SCOL, 2170P-4 SPIC and 2170P-1) except for the color decoder and custom values tweaks.

... Is there a reason you chose "WARM" as the color setting for the tweaks? My TV on Digital Cable appears nicer to the eye with the "NEUTRAL" and even the "COOL" settings after the tweaks. Do you think the color decoder adjustments will fix this? DVD looks awesome with any of the settings; although, I have only watched using "WARM". Like you suggested, I used the "WARM" setting when adjusting the USER MENU settings with the AVIA disk. Do you have any suggestions? Should I take the time to see if I have any "RED PUSH" before moving on? How long do you think I should wait to make the color decoder adjustments...now have about 20 hours of viewing on the bulb? Any suggestions or comments from you, UMR, or anyone else would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks and have a great night!

I used "WARM" because it is closest to the D65 standard that the studios edit the movies with. You can use something else if you do not like "WARM", but that should be the most accurate temperature setting.

The color decoder settings are very important for an accurate picture. They will correct a "PUSH" be it red or green in your set. Mine had both. I would have skipped the color temperature for the first 100 hours and done everything else. Getting the color temperature right is difficult and offers a very subtle improvement over the factory settings. You can always check the decoder later (this is what I did).

I have read many people are not using the calibration procedure for 2170P-1 and are just using my values directly. That is a mistake. I would start by looking at the factory settings with my procedure and see how far off they are. If your set looks good don't change anything. You could then try my numbers I guess and check those for color tracking and if that fails move on to the complete procedure.

I would at least visually check my set with the gray scale ramps and yellow screen (blue panel off) to see how it looks. If the Yellow looks yellow and not yellow with green or red that is what you want. When the ramps look yellow with the blue panel off that is what you want. When the ramps look gray across the board that is also what you want. There is no reason to change any of this if your set looks good with out adjusting anything.

Originally posted by kbat
... What can possibly get damaged ? Being the LCD is a dark to light window pixel array and the light source is one of 3 colors from a white light source spit into 3 primarys what is it that can be damaged ? Is it speculation ? I guess the unknown is a possible concern - but just wondering if anyone knows.
I can see photo tubes emitters/sensors being senitive to excess voltage/light, but LCDs is new for me to grip on for wear exposure items.
I'd assume the designer's circuit supplies (voltage & current) would be no more than the LCD spec recommended ratings.
Maybe theres a site somewhere, with LCD studies info, or on the very LCDs utilized in the GWII.

Secondly, this GWII has real top of line color impact to me with just minor "dark" contrast issues. I realise there is a limited overall throughput light level contrast ratio for the LCD. I'm wondering if "in small part", it is due to non linear response of the LCD in the darker levels. "If" this is the case, is it possible then that either Sony or the LCD supplier, will improve the darker linearity with an improved compensation circuit ? One would have thought this research was already done in fine detail though. If such improvement was to be made by Sony in a next generation, the technical GWII user "may" benifit from that circuit information. But I suspect they have already obtained the best linearity possible (2nd generation) My supplier felt warranty replacement of the faulty LCD's was likely more expensive than a replacement GWII - ouch.

I'm not sure if light leakage is an issue on this set, but I'd assume Sony incorporated some kind of "polariser like" feature to the light source & screen destination with both aligned to one another. Unfortunately a big screen sized polariser can be expensive for that location. Other methods are an attempt but better than nothing.


Our house really likes this GWII ! FAR better than our previous 20" :)
Best regards all, kbat

There is one thing that can easily be damaged and that is your picture quality. You can change the wrong value by accident and mess up your picture. Some of the settings appear to be related to what type of signal the LCD panels are expecting. I would guess it is possible to send or receive voltages that could damage something.

I believe the problem is the inconsistency of the panels at throttling light. To handle this they would need to custom filter and electronically compensate each set. This is cost prohibitive at these price levels. Light leakage is an issue near black. They are using polarizers with the LCD panels.

Good Luck!!!

hi umr!

i'm in the middle of doing my tweaks, and i had a question i was hoping you could answer regarding category 2170P-1

In the instructions, there is a table with your values, as well as detailed instructions on how to tweak the values for your own set using Avia test patterns.

The table displays a value for item RDRV (Red Gain), but the instructions never address RDRV. Does this mean we should change our setting to match yours (40)? My default setting for this item in this category is 48.

Just don't want to miss anything...

Thanks alot!!

Originally posted by turtlebird
hi umr!

i'm in the middle of doing my tweaks, and i had a question i was hoping you could answer regarding category 2170P-1

In the instructions, there is a table with your values, as well as detailed instructions on how to tweak the values for your own set using Avia test patterns.

The table displays a value for item RDRV (Red Gain), but the instructions never address RDRV. Does this mean we should change our setting to match yours (40)? My default setting for this item in this category is 48.

Just don't want to miss anything...

Thanks alot!!

Actually, what you choose to balance the yellow with is arbitrary. You can use either red or green. You might want to drop red though if you run out of panel on the green which is what happened on my set. In general though one panel is going to limit out first on the high end. That is the one you want to balance everything else around. This assumes you want to maximize the contrast ratio of your set.

To see which panel limits out first I would use the THX Optimzer constrast display and increase the picture setting while looking through the different AVIA filters. The color that limits out at the lowest picture setting is the panel that will limit your adustments.

Green is sometimes used as a basis for other settings so an argument could be made that you should be using red. I just tried to simplify the instructions as much as possible to avoid confusion.

I debated whether to even include this information at all because the odds of someone getting it right are probably not the best. I kept getting bugged though so I put it in there.

That is why I prefaced it with the statement about it being hard to do. On top of that it is also not a very big deal if you are close. WARM is pretty close to start with. Mine just did not track that well though which bugged me.

FYI.

I recently changed my Dish 501 box from S-Video to a high quality composite cable. The picture is significantly better. The picture looks a littler sharper and some strange combing like effects around brightly colored objects are gone.

What cables (i.e., brand/model) are you using, for both the DVD and STB? Thanks.

Lee

I am using cables from:

Blue Jeans Cables (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/)

I use the cables with Canare RCA ends and Canare L-5CFB cable for both composite and component cables.

Is it true that S-Video bypasses the 3d digital comb filter on the GWII (or any other set for that matter)?

Originally posted by kkelley
Is it true that S-Video bypasses the 3d digital comb filter on the GWII (or any other set for that matter)?

Yes. That and the signal loss with S-Video can be a problem. S-Video connectors are so small it is hard to use them with quality cable.

Originally posted by umr
I am using cables from:

Blue Jeans Cables (http://www.bluejeanscable.com/)

I use the cables with Canare RCA ends and Canare L-5CFB cable for both composite and component cables.

I have the Blue Jeans component cable (6 ft., 3-colors bound into one sheath -- I probably should have gotten a shorter length, as the sheath is a bit stiff -- I guess I could take it off and have individual R, G and B -- bought that way it's $5.00 cheaper), and noticed a very slight improvement (judging by eyelash/hair/skin sharpness on FINAL FANTASY) over $30 AR blue-colored low-end component cables I bought (and returned) at Best Buy. Since BJ cables cost only $45.00, they're very cost-competitive, and I couldn't really tell a difference on a previous 57" RPTV between the Best Buy ARs and $90 Monster Cables, which cost 2x the price of the BJ cables.

Okay, I am copmpletely new to ALL of this. I have tried reading through most of this thread, but I must be way over my head (a newbie, if you will)....

I just spent $4k+ on what I thought was an incredible monitor. Of course, I was seeing an HD-fed demo and had no idea the non-HD (SD?) would be so bad. I would hate to have to return it and start my search over. This monitor seems to be the most "future proof" in relation to other monitors I have looked at.

I just bought the KF-60XBR800 (aka the GWII?) and am seeing alot of this "less than expected" picture quality (pq?). I am under the impression that there is a lot of tweaking that can be done using umr's guide that I downloaded from his initial post (and someone's pdf reproduction thereof). I am also seeing references to an AVIA DVD.

My big question is....should I try this? Sounds crazy, but I want to make sure that this is something that can be done by someone simply following directions and does not have a strong background in this sort of thing. I obviously do not have the same experience as many of the contributors to this thread.

So, with that in mind, is this something I should undertake? Is umr's guide sufficient for a "newbie" like me?

Being a computer geek, if someone asked my how to get into the CMOS, I would advise them to stay away from it. Am I in the same boat here? Any help would be appreciated.....

I have had a few questions off-line about how I use Avia and where the test images are on the disk. Here is a map of how I use it. The "-" marks indicate how many levels deep inside of the menu you are. The "====" marks an actual test pattern and what it is used for.

The "?" next to the test pattern menu selection on Avia can help you use it.

Main Menu (Advanced Avia)

-Video Test Patterns-

--Gray Scale & Levels--

---Black & White Levels---

====Needle Pulses & Steps (Picture & Brightness)====

---Gray Steps & Ramps---

====Crossed Horizontal Gray Ramp (White Balance)====

---Gray Fields---

====30 IRE Field (White Balance)====

====70 IRE Field (White Balance)====

====All the IRE Fields can be used if you have an accurate light meter to set the displays Gamma.====

--Resolution--

====Resolution 200 TVL (Edge Enhancement, DRC)====

====Sharpness (Sharpness)====

--Color Adjustment--

---Standard Color Bars---

====Split Color Bars (Color Decoder)====

--Special Tests--

====YC Delay (Chroma Delay)====

====Moving Zone Plate - High (DRC)====

====Moving Zone Plate - Low (DRC)====

Note: DRC tests are only valid for interlaced input from DVD player and YC Delay is only valid for the DVD player.

Originally posted by MrLANlord
....My big question is....should I try this? Sounds crazy, but I want to make sure that this is something that can be done by someone simply following directions and does not have a strong background in this sort of thing. I obviously do not have the same experience as many of the contributors to this thread.

So, with that in mind, is this something I should undertake? Is umr's guide sufficient for a "newbie" like me?

Any help would be appreciated.....

I have not heard from anyone who has messed up their set yet. I guess you could be the first. :(

I have heard from several people who have struggled though. My tweak file is not really a complete step by step procedure. It is more a list of what does what and information on how to set the parameters along with a suggested order of implementation.

These type of adjustments are not for everyone. You need to decide if you are willing to take it on or not. Many of the adjustments are fairly simple, but some are pretty tough. I would skip white balance entirely until you fully understand what that is doing.

MrLANDlord,

I too am a newbie to all this and applied the tweaks simply by following the instructions clearly laid out in UMR's guide. The only other item's I used while tweaking my 60XBR800 were the AVIA DVD (a definite must) and THX Optimizer (found on most new THX certified DVDs (i.e., Monsters Inc., Star Wars: AOTC, etc.)).

My only recommendation would be for you to familiarize yourself with the Service Menu prior to implementing any of the tweaks. This can be done by entering the Service Menu and using only the "Category" and "Item" Up and Down buttons to navigate around for a bit. Once you see how everything is laid out in the Service Menu and how easy it is to change a setting (Caution: As stated in UMR's guide, make certain that your write down the original value of a setting before changing it) you may feel a little more comfortable about implementing the tweaks.

FYI, I found the tweaks improved SD PQ from unacceptable to acceptable. DVD and HD content remain outstanding if not slightly improved.

Good luck! :)

OBTW, using the AVIA DVD to make adjustments via the standard User Menu (Picture, Brightness, Color, etc.) without the Service Menu tweaks results in marginal improvements. But improvements nonetheless.

Originally posted by MrLANlord
...Being a computer geek, if someone asked my how to get into the CMOS, I would advise them to stay away from it. Am I in the same boat here? Any help would be appreciated.....

Your analogy to CMOS is pretty close. These settings are like that. The big difference is you can see what they do before you save them. You can even erase temporary (unsaved) changes by disconnecting the power if you happen to change something by accident. When you do a save though it saves all changes. This means you will save accidental changes at the same time.

You should stay out of trouble if you don't change anything except what is in the tweak file. Unfortunately, you are in a place like CMOS so bad things are possible.

I talked to a fellow who turned on a parameter that I did not mention in the post by accident and he did not know it. This caused his display to flash every few seconds. Even if he would have saved the settings I would have known what he did, but danger is present.

Here is the Video 7 discrete code for those using Pronto's.

0000 0067 0000 0010 0060 0018 0018 0018 0030 0018 0018 0018 0018 0018 0018 0018 0018 0018 0030 0018 0030 0018 0030 0018 0030 0018 0018 0018 0030 0018 0018 0018 0018 0018 0030 0336

The CMOS analogy is a good one except in CMOS, you can always return to the factory default settings by selecting that from the CMOS menu. It seems that in this case, there isn't such a selection. Is that correct?

There is, but no one I know of has had the guts to use it. Sometimes they work and sometimes they go to a factory default setting before calibration. This can be worse than where you were at.

I'll PM you the code if you want to give it a whirl.:D AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!

Maybe then in terms of tweaks they should be done one at a time?

Originally posted by stosh
Maybe then in terms of tweaks they should be done one at a time?

I don't know any other way to do them.:D

Originally posted by umr
There is, but no one I know of has had the guts to use it. Sometimes they work and sometimes they go to a factory default setting before calibration. This can be worse than where you were at.

I'll PM you the code if you want to give it a whirl.:D AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!

UMR,

Don't you think it's a good idea to post the code so others won't accidentally reset it to the factory default settings (which I don't think it will be any better than the current settings)?.

Originally posted by TDNN
UMR,

Don't you think it's a good idea to post the code so others won't accidentally reset it to the factory default settings (which I don't think it will be any better than the current settings)?.

No. I was concerned someone might blame me for trying something I was unwilling to. I have read some horror stories about this on other models.

Originally posted by umr
FYI.

I recently changed my Dish 501 box from S-Video to a high quality composite cable. The picture is significantly better. The picture looks a littler sharper and some strange combing like effects around brightly colored objects are gone.


I had just taken it for granted that most people knew that the composite cable directs the low quality signal to the 3d digital filter and only used the S and component cables for DVD,HDTV and games.

That's what I get for not asking questions about people's problems and trying to help!

umr,

Don't actually have the set yet (tomorrow...):D

Some questions... What are VGAM and GAMM? Are you lowering gamma, thus increasing contrast? Also, what is the point of adjusting 2170P-2 (Picture, Brightness, Color, Hue, Sharpness, UTMP)? Seems like you can do this through the normal user menus. Sorry for my ignorance, I don't have the set yet to experiment and see the changes. Thanks.

Lee

Originally posted by leeferna
umr,

Don't actually have the set yet (tomorrow...):D

Some questions... What are VGAM and GAMM? Are you lowering gamma, thus increasing contrast? Also, what is the point of adjusting 2170P-2 (Picture, Brightness, Color, Hue, Sharpness, UTMP)? Seems like you can do this through the normal user menus. Sorry for my ignorance, I don't have the set yet to experiment and see the changes. Thanks.

Lee

No problem I was ignorant about this set not very long ago myself.

The VGAM is a gamma multiplier (0.5 to 1.5) where 31 sets the multiplier to one. This input ranges 0-63.

GAMM is selecting a preconfigured gamma table in the TV. Table 0 is actually a higher gamma (go figure) than the default 4 or 6 for Pro mode depending on the input. The zero table seemed like the highest gamma I could get from the tables.

Try reading what the file says for 2170P-2 again after reading the following. The first set of numbers are the settings that are used if you press the reset button on the remote. This is very handy for recalling your calibrated values back. The second set of numbers are internal biases that can be used to calibrate each input type separately. A good example of this is some devices are not SMPTE and some have different black levels (0 or 7.5 IRE). Without this type of setting you would need to switch picture modes (Standard, Pro...) to save different settings for each input. This would also greatly complicate the calibration since each of these modes has many settings that would have to be changed to equivalence them to the calibrated Pro mode in my post.

Good Luck!!!

I just received my 60 inch xbr and it is fantastic right out of the box. I am surprised at how good the blacks are considering what I have read on this forum about them.

I seem to have a problem with the top and bottom horozontal bars not being even across the screen - about 1/2 inch difference from one corner to the other. Seems like the picture needs to be rotated clockwise a tiny amount, or the left side needs to be raised a small amount. Is this fixable?


Thanks

I seem to have a problem with the top and bottom horozontal bars not being even across the screen - about 1/2 inch difference from one corner to the other. Seems like the picture needs to be rotated clockwise a tiny amount, or the left side needs to be raised a small amount. Is this fixable?

I have not found anything in the service menu that rotates the image. There are adjustments on the lens that might do this, but I don't know anyone who has tried it.

Thanks UMR. I will speak with a sony technician and report what they say if it is useful.

Please ask them about pin-cushion adjustments too for 4:3 mode.

Here is something many people might want.

GWII Service Manual Link (http://service-asc.sel.sony.com/SonyESI/pdf/99653500.1/manual.pdf)

"I love you, man."

Originally posted by umr
Here is something many people might want.

GWII Service Manual Link (http://service-asc.sel.sony.com/SonyESI/pdf/99653500.1/manual.pdf)

Awesome, Blossom!! (Even though I did buy the manual)

Here is some very interesting information. This fills in some of the gaps in the GWII service manual. I have not had time to fully digest this, but some things look very similar.

GWI Service Manual (http://service-asc.sel.sony.com/SonyESI/pdf/99654400.1/manual.pdf)

The GWI manual has already yielded fruit. To adjust your image size in 16:9 completely use:

MID1 (Category)

DHPH (Horizontal Position)
DVPH (Vertical Position)
MDHS (Horizontal Size)
MDVS (Vertical Size)

This should fix the problems people are having with over-scan an PC's.

Somebody needs to start a donation fund to pay umr for all this amazing free consulting.

Hell, umr alone should be a deciding factor for anyone in the Sammy DLP vs. GWII wars.

I need to make a decision soon between the Sony GW 50" and Sammy 50" TANTUS DLP--can anyone help me decide--really on the fence here.

I think what seals it for me after months of reading post purchase message threads is that the GWII just seams to be a more polished TV solution than something from the realatively newcomer Samsung.

There are just so many wacky things about the Sammy that seem like really stupid decisions or behavior that I am glad I went with the GWII.

I was very disapointed to find that the GWII uses analog inputs into its LCD tri-panels which is one of the reasons you never get at the native resolution of the display with a PC connected via DVI.

However, every time I try to get mad about this I remind myself that the picture that gets generated ends up being better for HTPC DVD watching and game playing and that is what is really important, not writting a document with pure digital text.

The number of problems with the Sammy are also make me glad I got the GWII.

I have updated the excel spreadsheet in the thread and the html version of the tweaks (on page 12) to include my latest findings. The big change is the inclusion of the new items to better align your screen image.

The PDF should be up sometime later.

People may already have this.....but here's the link to GWII Service Manuals:50XBR800 and 60XBR800:

http://service-asc.sel.sony.com/SonyESI/pdf/99653500.1/manual.pdf


------------------------------------------------------------------------

1/29/03: Here is the latest PDF file. I have included an updated version of the FAQ.

1/31/03: From now on the File is called "GWXBR Tweaks". The current version is 4.0 and it is posted on page 16 of this thread.

motjes2,

Very nice upgrade.
:)

Thanks, I am glad to contribute. But above all thank you a lot for providing your time and effort to do all of this and sharing the information. Your infomation has been exceptional and has made my TV experience excellent!

Now, every Saturday night is Movie night at my house. My mom, sister and brothers (plus my wife and I), rent two to three dvds to watch. I also have once a month a gathering of friends to discuss various topics and guess what? The TV is being used to show presentations and videos and everybody has enjoy it so far.

I have figured out a few more things using the GWI manual.

4:3 Window alignment parameters. This one has been bugging me because I could not get my 4:3 image down to 3% over-scan and centered. Now it is!

You need to use a test image to get this correct.

MID2 DRC (Category)

DRHP (Horizontal Position)
DRHS (Horizontal Size)
DRVP (Vertical Position)
DRVS (Vertical Size)


More enhancement/filtering you can eliminate. Eliminating the filtering with devices that ring or have high frequency noise could be a negative. This improved the SD and DVD image quality on my set even more.

MID5 L/E (Category)

MHLY 0 (Y Horizontal Low Pass Filter Coef.)
MVLY 0 (Y Vertical Low Pass Filter Coef.)
MHYL 0 (Y Clip Level)

Also, change the sharpness after doing this. Mine is at 17 clicks from the left now. USHP should be 16 to match this.

This information is not in the current tweak file.

Umr,
Thanks for all your efforts in making this television ROCK! I just got mine Monday and have spent the last few days playing around with the settings and what not. I have a DishPlayer 7200 and thee Phillips Q50 dvd player. The tweaks made the dish signal mush better (yet 'softer'), and the dvd player progresive signal is sooo much better now.

To sum it up, I love this tv. I replaced a Philips 34pw9817 and never looked back. Even the black levels on this are ok. I've done every tweak except for the white level. I had problems with the color adjustments, but that's cause I'm a bit color blind :rolleyes: .

One question: On the THX Optimode, I can see the 7th black square, but the THX shadow does not show up. It was fine on the old tv, so I think the dvd player is ok. I've also tried turning the black enchacement on and off. Any suggestions with this, or it is ok since I can see that 7th square?

Thanks again for all your help

llama,

The latest tweaks (above) make the image very sharp. All the softness seems to be gone. The softness was caused by the circuits low pass filtering.

Black Enhancement is usually for 0 & 7.5 IRE blacks. I would turn this off (7.5 IRE). This might be the problem with the drop shadow if you had it on. Using 0 IRE blacks will cause the calibration of NTSC to be off unless you can calibrate those with a test signal.

You should be OK on the DVD if you can see the 7th black square.

You probably cannot do the white balance or color decoder tweaks. I would suggest you just leave white balance alone and try using my color decoder settings directly.

Umr:

The tweaks for removing enhancement for sharpness are right on. However, using your color decoder settings directly on my 60XBR800 has resulted in an accentuated reddish tint, particularly with darker scenes, despite calibration of color saturation and hue in the user menu with Sound and Vision Home theater tuneup.

I have a few questions regarding calibration of the color decoder (2170-P4). First, do I need a copy of Avia to do this properly, or can I use the S&V disc with its one color filter, along with THX optimizer. Second, should I use any of your settings (e.g. BLK or GAMM), or do I need to try to set these all myself. Third, do you have a step by step procedure for calibration the color decoder properly, for those of us who have not done this sort of thing before.

Additional question: I used DHPH to center the THX optimizer screen with component inputs. What does HPOS ADJ do, and should I be adjusing this instead? Also, what does PLL-C (VCOL) do?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm new to this, and I'd like to understand what I am doing. Thanks for all your help.

Umr:
I have had the same results as jbaraga --- reddish tint. Also lack of detail on black. Appreciate all your hard work. Any suggestion on where I've gone astray?

Originally posted by jbaraga
Umr:

The tweaks for removing enhancement for sharpness are right on. However, using your color decoder settings directly on my 60XBR800 has resulted in an accentuated reddish tint, particularly with darker scenes, despite calibration of color saturation and hue in the user menu with Sound and Vision Home theater tuneup.

I have a few questions regarding calibration of the color decoder (2170-P4). First, do I need a copy of Avia to do this properly, or can I use the S&V disc with its one color filter, along with THX optimizer. Second, should I use any of your settings (e.g. BLK or GAMM), or do I need to try to set these all myself. Third, do you have a step by step procedure for calibration the color decoder properly, for those of us who have not done this sort of thing before.

Additional question: I used DHPH to center the THX optimizer screen with component inputs. What does HPOS ADJ do, and should I be adjusing this instead? Also, what does PLL-C (VCOL) do?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm new to this, and I'd like to understand what I am doing. Thanks for all your help.

You need Avia to set the color decoder correctly if mine don't work for you. The disk includes instructions for doing this adjustment.

I am not quite sure what you are asking about GAMM and BLK. I suggest you try my settings for those if you want a gamma close to 2.2 instead of the very low factory values. When I include a procedure or method I would suggest you use it. When a value alone is listed you can just use it or ignore it. That is your choice. I believe these values are the best settings, but I would be interested if you found out something different. I have access to several disks other than AVIA that I use to make these judgements.

I would not use HPOS ADJ and PLL-C since I have found out how to use MID1 and MID2 unless they do not get the job done. HPOS ADJ shifts the image left and right and PLL-C changes the image size in the projector.

Originally posted by megapixel
Umr:
I have had the same results as jbaraga --- reddish tint. Also lack of detail on black. Appreciate all your hard work. Any suggestion on where I've gone astray?

I am not sure what you mean by a reduction in black detail. You might have set brightness and picture wrong or you might prefer a lower gamma. If you can't see all of the black levels on AVIA or THX optimizer the levels are not correct. If you just don't like the fact that you can't easily see differences in the darkest levels of black you should restore your old gamma or try adjusting VGAM to your taste. You can change gamma back by restoring the original values for VGAM and GAMM.

The reddish tint could also be white balance if you just copied my numbers and did not verify their accuracy. Look at a gray scale ramp and see if it shifts in color to determine if this is your problem.

In regards to GAMM and BLK and lack of detail. On my set it seems that black has become super black. For example when someone is wearing a black shrit, I find it hard to see the collar or any detail of the shirt.

Is that the trade off to get the otherwise fantastic picture we now see.

UMR, does your set demonstrate this?

Thanks!

kkelley,

Yes, that is the trade off. Setting the brightness and picture accurately is critical on this set. You just do not have much contrast to throw away and small errors will loose all details in the low level blacks.

My set does not display low level blacks like one with a 1000:1 contrast ratio if that is what you are asking. The details are there they are just muted in comparison.

Ok, that makes sense. I will pay more attention to brightness and picture.

Would I be in error by pegging picture at 100% and spending more time with the brightness setting? It seems that the 100% picture setting is pretty standard now...

A 100% picture does crush some peoples whites, but you are correct brightness is the key parameter for the low level blacks.

Thanks UMR! I'll try this along with the above new info tonight.

I would add that if you think it is hard to get it right with a DVD test image. Other things like HD and DSS are an order of magnitude more difficult without test signals.

Originally posted by umr
You need Avia to set the color decoder correctly if mine don't work for you. The disk includes instructions for doing this adjustment.

I am not quite sure what you are asking about GAMM and BLK. I suggest you try my settings for those if you want a gamma close to 2.2 instead of the very low factory values. When I include a procedure or method I would suggest you use it. When a value alone is listed you can just use it or ignore it. That is your choice. I believe these values are the best settings, but I would be interested if you found out something different. I have access to several disks other than AVIA that I use to make these judgements.

I would not use HPOS ADJ and PLL-C since I have found out how to use MID1 and MID2 unless they do not get the job done. HPOS ADJ shifts the image left and right and PLL-C changes the image size in the projector.

I guess I'll have to bite the bullet and buy Avia. I'm sure the color decoder tweak method with become more clear to me when I have the disc.

BTW, this thread is one of the reasons I bought this set. I think Sony owes you a commission!

I just looked at S&V and you do not need Avia to adjust the color decoder. You need to place the color bars on the screen and run with only blue, red and green panels on to set the decoder.

Tech Info (http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/experttips/guykuo/avia/avia_a2z.html)

Thanks for the tip. The "tech info" link is particularly helpful. I'll give it a try tonight.

Here is the latest version of the "PDF File". The file will be called "GWXBR Tweaks" from now on (just to give it a name). The current version I am posting is 4.0. Umr, added his lastest finding, FAQ was updated, and a listing of threads discussing this TV has been compiled and posted on the file. The links do not work yet but I am working on it.

1/31/03: Go to page 17 to download it. I have compressed the file by a factor of 3. Same file but better compression.

motjes2,

WOW. This is looking very good.

:)

motjes2 & umr,
Excellent work! and much appreciated!!!

I am uploading it one more time. This time the file is better compressed by a factor of three. Same information as the one above but only 160KB which give us a lot more bites to work with.


Update see below for an updated copy. There were a few typos that have been corrected in release 4.0.1

Hi Guys:

The tweaks have helped tremendously....and i appreciate how gracious you have been in sharing with the rest of us!!!

I'm sure the answer is already posted but i can't seem to find it.

On my Avia test disk....i can't see the moving black bars. In the THX optimizer, I can see all 7 levels of black.

Is this a problem? Do I have something set wrong??

Thanks!!!

I calibrated the color decoder using the Sound and Vision Home Theater TuneUp DVD last night. The disc has only one color bar pattern. This works well for the blue adjustments. There are not separate patterns for red and green, but I think I got the red and green levels fairly accurately using this single pattern. My final numbers are SCOL 29, SHUE 30 (same as yours), RYR 6, RYB 10, GYR 7, GYB 1. I also found SPIC 10 to appear better on my set. With this calibration, the red tint appears largely corrected.

I also find a loss of detail with low levels using the user menu calibration for picture and brightness. I find that increasing brightness a few ticks from the calibrated level helps to recover some of the detail.

Originally posted by Harry Brandt
Hi Guys:

The tweaks have helped tremendously....and i appreciate how gracious you have been in sharing with the rest of us!!!

I'm sure the answer is already posted but i can't seem to find it.

On my Avia test disk....i can't see the moving black bars. In the THX optimizer, I can see all 7 levels of black.

Is this a problem? Do I have something set wrong??

Thanks!!!

If you can't see the black bars on the white field picture is too high.

If you can't see the black bars on the black field brightness is too low.

If you can't adjust out of it something is wrong.

Thanks....Here's another question:

I have all of my inputs heading into a Focus Enhancements CS2 and output via DVI with a 720p-eia-rgb resolution. On the DVI (Video 7) input do you think the values of your tweaks would be different for a 720p vs. a 1080i input. Focus Enhancements is currently working on 1080i resolution that will work with the GWII.

Incidentally, I think the CS2 actually improves the PQ of standard def inputs significantly, and the 720p output of high def looks quite stunning!!

Thanks....Here's another question:
I have all of my inputs heading into a Focus Enhancements CS2 and output via DVI with a 720p-eia-rgb resolution. On the DVI (Video 7) input do you think the values of your tweaks would be different for a 720p vs. a 1080i input. Focus Enhancements is currently working on 1080i resolution that will work with the GWII.

Incidentally, I think the CS2 actually improves the PQ of standard def inputs significantly, and the 720p output of high def looks quite stunning!!


Your CS2 was able to connect through DVI using the native resolution of the GWII? What's the output resolution that you were able to connect the CS2?

You need to adjust the service menu tweaks for enhancement/filtering on the other inputs before you make the call about SD via a CS-2 DVI input vs. composite or component inputs . The analog inputs go through quite a bit of processing that really messes up the signal that the DVI mostly, but not entirely avoids. You need to disable that stuff before you can really judge what a CS-2 is buying you.

You may be loosing the chroma delay compensation on each input which could be a problem depending on the device.

I would be interested in seeing photographs of the differences once you have calibrated both input paths.

I have tweaked my set with both 720p and 1080i on DVI and they were the same. HD with 720p or 1080i is very very good.

1/31/02 Update at 1:52pm:

There were a few typos in that last release 4.0.

1- BCUT was left out.
2- Typos/errors on the user menu sharpness.
3- Error in the USHP parameter.

These have been corrected and here is the latest version 4.0.1

2/15/03 there is a new version 4.3 on page 27...

Just out of curiosity, has anyone played with the manual focus on this set? There must be some lens focus. Is it advantageous to leave it very slightly out of focus to help with the 'screen door' problem?

- Steve

Umr, the technicians were here today. At first it was hard to see what the problem was because in the day time those "brown spots" are less noticeable. Finally, after a few signal and program changes we were able to see them. The technician said that the optical blocks needed to be replaced and he is going to speak to Sony to order the parts. They will also come and clean the screen as well. Well, that went well. I just hope that he is correct in his assessment.


P.S. they also noticed something else. It looks like the left spots are expanding to the center of the screen.

I wonder if this is what they are talking about...

Originally posted by Skellington
Just out of curiosity, has anyone played with the manual focus on this set? There must be some lens focus. Is it advantageous to leave it very slightly out of focus to help with the 'screen door' problem?

- Steve

I believe there is a manual focus on the lens assembly, but I have not tried it to be sure. It has a wing nut and with a set screw on it.

Defocussing is a bad idea. One of the great things about this set is the resolution of the optics and LCD panels. You will loose much of this if you defocus.

Most of the 'screen door' problem people see is excessive sharpness and enhancement causing artifacts. My screen image is very smooth once you are back far enough to avoid seeing the individual pixels and MPEG artifacts.

Originally posted by motjes2
I wonder if this is what they are talking about...


I think so.

The technician said the replacement cost between $700 and $800.

Originally posted by motjes2
Your CS2 was able to connect through DVI using the native resolution of the GWII? What's the output resolution that you were able to connect the CS2?

Currently, I'm running a modified SDI output from a Pioneer DV-47a and DVI from a Sony HD200 into the CS2.....and i'm using the 720p-eia-rgb output via DVI to the GWII.

Regarding the uneven horozontal black bars in letterbox: SONY told me that the older GW sets had a tilt adjustment in the menu that the GWII lacks so they say I have to have a technician come to the house to adjust the set. The unevenness is not that terrible, but about 1/2 inch difference from one side to the other on the 60inch screen.

I have a question about hook up of TIVO. I've used the internal splitter with the direct cable line used for watching cable TV stations directly, and the AUX 3 antenna for watching through the cable box. THe cable box is then connected to the TIVO and then back into the TV. When I am watching a station through the cable box i.e. AUX 3 antenna, there is no picture quality problem recording on the TIVO. HOWEVER, when I try to record on TIVO while I am watching a different channel on ANT the TIVO recording is all garbage. Isn't there a way of recording one station on TIVO while watching another channel via the main ANT input? I may have to go back to using a splitter before entering the TV, with one line into the TV ANT and the other through the cable box into the TIVO recorder then into a video input, but I fear that would drop the picture quality.

Jay

Jay

Originally posted by netmd
Regarding the uneven horozontal black bars in letterbox: SONY told me that the older GW sets had a tilt adjustment in the menu that the GWII lacks so they say I have to have a technician come to the house to adjust the set. The unevenness is not that terrible, but about 1/2 inch difference from one side to the other on the 60inch screen.

I have a question about hook up of TIVO. ...

Please record what the technician adjusts so we can try it on a GWII. I don't see how they are doing this in the GWI manual either. :)

I don't know anything about TIVO. Sorry.:(

Originally posted by umr
Please record what the technician adjusts so we can try it on a GWII. I don't see how they are doing this in the GWI manual either. :)

I don't know anything about TIVO. Sorry.:(

I know some Sony WEGA direct-view TVs have a tilt adjustment as part of the menu. I would guess this is what they're talking about. But any menu option would also be manageable via the Service Menu codes, I would think, and if all they did was take it off the user menu for the GW II, I would think we could still do this via the SM -- maybe. Who knows.....

Originally posted by eweiss
I know some Sony WEGA direct-view TVs have a tilt adjustment as part of the menu. I would guess this is what they're talking about. But any menu option would also be manageable via the Service Menu codes, I would think, and if all they did was take it off the user menu for the GW II, I would think we could still do this via the SM -- maybe. Who knows.....

The GWII has these parameters. They just don't do anything.

Originally posted by umr
If you can't see the black bars on the white field picture is too high.

If you can't see the black bars on the black field brightness is too low.

If you can't adjust out of it something is wrong.

Thanks UMR!!! I figured out the problem...which was that the contrast and brightness settings on the CS-2 were set to 0. I figured i'd leave these at 0, and adjust picture and brightness from your baseline user menu settings on the GWII. However, it turned out that I needed to adjust the CS-2 contrast and brightness to see the bars

A new issues, however, is that I am still unable to see both black bars on the THX optimizer and the video essentials disc, regardless of what i do.

Do you have any ideas why i would be able to see them on AVIA, but not on VE or THX optimizer??

Thanks for all your help!!!!!

Harry,

I believe Avia is not using blacker than black for the needle pulse, but THX does on the THX shadow. I assume you are not seeing the shadow. I don't know what VE does.

Maybe the CS-2 is clipping the blacker than black output.

You do see the shades of gray on the Avia test patterns?

The black bars on VE and THX Optimizer include a "blacker than black" stripe/area. Some DVD players/video processors, etc. do not pass blacker than black so you will never be able to see them in that case.

I worked on a GWII yesterday and the VE blacker than black bar was just barely visible, indicating that the TV and DVD player were both passing SOME blacker than black, but it was not as dark in relation to black as I was used to so they aren't passing blacker than black all the way down to -4ire.

The two moving bars on Avia are both slightly lighter than black. If you can't see both of them on a given setup, something is clipping data above black which would be a very bad thing.

Cheezmo,

Do you have any comments about improving our GWII's?

Originally posted by umr
Harry,

I believe Avia is not using blacker than black for the needle pulse, but THX does on the THX shadow. I assume you are not seeing the shadow. I don't know what VE does.

Maybe the CS-2 is clipping the blacker than black output.

You do see the shades of gray on the Avia test patterns?

Yes, shades of gray are fine as are the black bars on AVIA. The problems have been with the THX Optimizer and VE. The CS-2 must not allow the blacker than black output....because when I run my DVD player directly to the GWII via component.....i can see everything.

Incidentally, i'm putting the CS-2 through the paces this weekend and will be able to provide comparisons between:

Pioneer 47a (SDI output) to CS-2 to GWII (Video 7 - DVI)
Pioneer 47a (component output) to GWII (Video 5 - Component)

If I have the time and paience to do it....i'd like to try both setups....with and without your tweaks!!!

One other comment: I'm a two channel audio freak...and never accept that a new component or setup or cable etc. is improving anything until it has been tested under blind conditions. While i think your tweaks have led to dramatic improvement....i'm trying to figure out a good way to compare pq with and without tweaks under blind conditions.

As always, thanks for your tremendous commitment to this forum and the GWII!!!

Most of these changes do not require double blind conditions. You can take pictures of them with test patterns. I use the DVD Demystified 2nd edition for much of my testing. The section labeled Jim's Test Images has some images that are very difficult to get right. This includes some resolution and line pair patterns that clearly show what removing the enhancement is doing. The 200 TVL resolution and sharpness patterns on Avia are also pretty good, but they are not as challenging as Jim Taylor's.

I would also add that Jim Taylor's images are not "perfect" yet on my set. So more improvement is still possible. The Avia images are pretty close to perfect though.

The following are areas I see for improvement still:

Video to Film mode change detection on composite inputs is worse than component.

Some kind of strange noise is still present on tightly spaced line pairs from Jim Taylor's test images.

UMR and others,
Although my question was regarding TIVO, the issue is probably not specific to TIVO. The question is how to connect so that you can record one channel while viewing another by using the internal "splitter" Sony says to use. However I believe the "internal splitter" is not really a splitter but a relay which sends signal to either the ANT or the AUX depending upon which button you push on the remote. Therefore I think the ONLY way to record one channel while watching another is to split ths signal before you enter the TV, then attach one cable to the UHF input for the ANT connection, and then the other cable to the cable box, then to the TIVO (or VCR), and then into a Video port with RCA cables (sucvh as Video 1). I thnk this way the TIVO will record signal it sees via the cable box witout any interference with the internal mechanism of the TV.

Does anyone have any experience otherwise?

I just called Sony Service and they said that the manual is incorrect by suggesting to use the internal splitter of the TV, and that they always recommend splitting the cable signal BEFORE going into the TV and then connecting one to the TV, and one to the cable box and then into a video port.

Umr, I was wondering about the following: I have a Panasonic HS2 through which I have recorded a lot of SD movies and programs. Most of these I have recorder on DVD-RAM at the highest speed "XP Mode". According to Panasonic this type of recording or transfer is suppose to be 100% identical to the original programming coming from Satellite or the PVR. Anyway, I downloaded dscaler last night. I wonder how much better the video would look by using the interlacing properties of dscaler. I have a DVD-Ram drive that reads the HS2 recordings. Is this in your opinion worth doing or not?

UMR,

As many have said before, I'd like to say thanks for all of your hard work and research. I have seen a noted improvement after implementing several of the listed tweaks. I do have one question that has been discussed a bit here already...the loss of detail in very dark or black areas. My situation is this: when using the DVI input or DVD component input (Video 7 and 5 respectively), I have great blacks and excellent detail in these areas. However, when using Video 1 (Satellite- SAT T-60 Tivo unit), the blacks are oversaturated and have no detail. Strange. Also I have noticed when using Video 7 (DVI connected to SAT HD-200), the DirecTV local stations are fairly washed out, but the OTA digital signals are very nice looking with much more vivid (and accurate) color.

Any ideas?

Rob

Originally posted by umr
Cheezmo,

Do you have any comments about improving our GWII's?

Just a couple of quick things...

The gamma for 480p is fine, measured right near 2.2. But your adjustments are most appropriate for 480i inputs. Also, the peaking adjustments only apply to 480p.

Be very careful adjusting the vertical size. I found that if you reduced it below about 4% overscan, the vertical resolution went all to heck (view Avia resolution patterns). I ended up sticking with just about 4% overscan for that reason.

Apart from the fact that I can't abide by the complete lack of black on a display like this, the grayscale, color decoding, and edge enhancement all dialed in just fine. And nice and bright too! Good solution for a room where light control is difficult.

I was disappointed to see the video "ringing" that has plagued so many sets in recent years visible on the Avia sharpness pattern as faint echoes of the black vertical lines on both sides.

Thanks for the input Steve. I did all my measurements with 480i so I would never notice a difference on 480p.

I have been using resolution patterns and did not notice a reduction in resolution, but I did not push my set past about 3%. Were you using MID1/MID2 and/or PLL-C to adjust the vertical size. I believe I used H POS AD & PLL-C (VCOL) to adjust the screen size/position in the past and only tweaked my settings with MID1/MID2.

I don't know if you saw the most recent file from yesterday, but there are more adjustments that help reduce the ringing even more. Mine is not totally gone, but it is close. These are in category MID5.

Originally posted by motjes2
Umr, I was wondering about the following: I have a Panasonic HS2 through which I have recorded a lot of SD movies and programs. Most of these I have recorder on DVD-RAM at the highest speed "XP Mode". According to Panasonic this type of recording or transfer is suppose to be 100% identical to the original programming coming from Satellite or the PVR. Anyway, I downloaded dscaler last night. I wonder how much better the video would look by using the interlacing properties of dscaler. I have a DVD-Ram drive that reads the HS2 recordings. Is this in your opinion worth doing or not?

I don't know, probably. Give it a try it should be an interesting experiment. I am guessing video based material might benefit more than film.

The ringing I'm describing is not edge enhancement. It would likely require a circuit board modification to correct if it is even possible. It may be possible with some combination of EE parmaeters/sharpness settings to hide it for certain width black lines, but I dont' think it is correctable. As I said, it is something that is common to an awful lot of RPTVs these days. Look for posts about Toshiba ghosting, that is the kind of thing I'm describing. I did reference your latest findings and nothing there helped.

I believe it was the MID1 parameters that messed up the vertical resolution. I didn't try the PLL-C adjustment.

Originally posted by xrob
UMR,

As many have said before, I'd like to say thanks for all of your hard work and research. I have seen a noted improvement after implementing several of the listed tweaks. I do have one question that has been discussed a bit here already...the loss of detail in very dark or black areas. My situation is this: when using the DVI input or DVD component input (Video 7 and 5 respectively), I have great blacks and excellent detail in these areas. However, when using Video 1 (Satellite- SAT T-60 Tivo unit), the blacks are oversaturated and have no detail. Strange. Also I have noticed when using Video 7 (DVI connected to SAT HD-200), the DirecTV local stations are fairly washed out, but the OTA digital signals are very nice looking with much more vivid (and accurate) color.

Any ideas?

Rob

The most likely problem is calibration of the picture and brightness for that input. You may need to bias that input differently from the others. The other inputs may have 0 IRE blacks while the Tivo will be 7.5 IRE. I would suggest you try and input a 7.5 IRE test signal into that input to get it closer. You may also be seeing a problem with the DirecTV.

Based on Steve Martin's comments you may want to try and adjust VGAM to see if boosting gamma would help on the washed out inputs.

UMR,

Thanks for the advice. I will try to adjust Video 1 back to 7.5 IRE. I thought DirecTV was a potential problem, but the same feed through the HD-200 looks fine to me. Of course, that is through Video 7, which brought me back to thinking it was an input-related adjustment. I'll let everyone know what I find out.

Rob

So I've done some of your tweaks, and the OSP as well as the gamma stuff is great, but I do think the reality =1 clarity=100 makes it too fuzzy. The vertical sharpening filter (MID5) I also didn't like the tweak for. Also, please note you can just change the POP number for that if you want instead of changing the POP 0 values, it's in the service manual.

I feel like to some extent you're aiming for something like the "mild," mode, except with more accurate colors/greyscale, and I'd rather have a sharper picture, artifacts and all.

What I've done is kept Clarity/Reality at 1 (the minimum) and sharpness at about the middle of the range. This gives me a sharp but smooth picture ("film-like") without too much grain.

Even though I have a Panny XP-50, I actually am feeding an interlaced signal into the GW. I think the Sony does an excellent job of deinterlacing (combined with Cinemotion turned on). This is all subjective of course, and any detailed tests may prove otherwise, but the DVD picture is just beautiful. I definitely think a progressive player may not be a requirement given the Sony's deinterlacing performance.

I also have made the UMR-recommended tweaks to OSP, PKNG, VGAM, and GAMM, although I've found that setting GAMM to 6 or 7 gives me the most pleasing contrast. I thought a setting of 0 was too low.

One thing that's critical is a good set of component cables. I was originally using Monster Standard video cables but switched to Monster Video 3. Wow, what a difference! I wouldn't have believed it unless I saw it myself. The picture has much better color; with the standard cables the blues were too blue in Normal mode, and not blue enough in Warm. Now, Normal mode seems perfect. Also, the picture seems to have much better contrast detail and depth. Before, it tended to be "flat". Now, its much more 3-dimensional. In the future I may audition better cables than the Video 3, but for now I'm more than happy.

PS - I love this set! :D

Lee

leeferna,

did you try altering VGAM as opposed to a different gamma table? Was it just a random pick or did you have a reason?

I'm using canare cables L-5CFB.

Anyone have suggestions for how to get text sharp on the Xbox over svideo, without nuking the picture quality into supersharp check out every pixel land?

Everyone check out my post about the GWII vs the 617W.

Yeah, I varied VGAM from 31 to about 20 but found that adjusting GAMM worked best for my setup. It was a close call though.

I've had the set for a couple of days and have really only been playing around with the settings associated with the DVD input. So, I still have to adjust the cable input... :rolleyes:

Lee

Originally posted by jephjeph
So I've done some of your tweaks, and the OSP as well as the gamma stuff is great, but I do think the reality =1 clarity=100 makes it too fuzzy. The vertical sharpening filter (MID5) I also didn't like the tweak for. Also, please note you can just change the POP number for that if you want instead of changing the POP 0 values, it's in the service manual.

I feel like to some extent you're aiming for something like the "mild," mode, except with more accurate colors/greyscale, and I'd rather have a sharper picture, artifacts and all.

I know all about POP in the service manual. I tried POP and I could not get it to stick. Could you get it to stick?

Are you using resolution test patterns like 200 TVL on Avia to make these judgements? Jim Taylor's images from DVD Demystified are even better for this. Take any of these resolution test patterns and look at Mild vs. these settings. They are not even close on my set.

I posted these settings because others asked, not because I want you to have your set look like mine. You are free to set the settings to anything you like.

What I was hoping to get out of this posting was more information like Steve Martin's or motjes2.

Here is a photo from a set Steve Martin calibrated. This is the same thing I am shooting for. Notice the lack of ringing.

ISF Calibrated Sharpness Pattern (http://dustin.davis.name/HomeTheatre/isf1/sharpness_before_svm0_2048.jpg)

Here is a link that discusses that calibration (http://dustin.davis.name/HomeTheatre/isf1.asp)

You guys should download the product data sheet for the PIC-BOOST chip in this thread if you want to understand VGAM better.

These are the patterns I am using to judge resolution, sharpness and deinterlacing. They do not appear quite like the post because of the reduced resolution and lack of color balancing.

The next.

Another.

Another. I have several more to post, but I need to go now.

UMR,

Thanks for all the hard work. Just completed all the tweaks last night to my DVD feed (XBOX 480i Vid 5) and regular OTA. An amazing difference. I just inserted your settings rather than optimize my own, and the color is much better, haze is gone (elevator scene in Episode II used to make my stomach turn it was so washed out). The biggest deal, is your tweaks make the DVD PQ consistently great instead of variable. I did a quick check of the color accuracy with the THX blue filter and it is still pretty close with your settings.

Also, I used the squeeze tricks to get my 1280x720 computer desktop via DVI. No more 1184x666 for me unless these resolution discussions change my mind. Left it at 1~2% overscan all around (I know, you suggested 3% but that just looses too much needed PC desktop). Did a quick look at Episode II over DVI and it looks great (just like 480i does). Don't know if the difference is significant on this 50" TV. HTPC will probably be just a glorified HDTV set top (MYHD) with occasional family room web surfing.


mv

Here are some more test images.

Another.

Another.

This is a grand test pattern that encompases many things. Including Y/C delay, luma and chroma resolution, gray scale and some others. This one is very useful for comparing cabling problems because of the chroma resolution pattern. I don't remember what this pattern is really called.

This is the last one. I also use overscan/resolution patterns for 16:9, but I they are very similar to these 4:3 ones.

First let me say to the extent that I appeared to be criticising your tweaks, I wasn't trying to go there. You've done a great service to the GWII community, so I'd like to say "thank you!" for all your work.


Originally posted by umr
[B]I know all about POP in the service manual. I tried POP and I could not get it to stick. Could you get it to stick?


I thought it stuck, but now I'm not sure. I'll go back and check.


Are you using resolution test patterns like 200 TVL on Avia to make these judgements? Jim Taylor's images from DVD Demystified are even better for this. Take any of these resolution test patterns and look at Mild vs. these settings. They are not even close on my set.


Ok, I'll try that. My "resolution" setting was text from the Xbox or on screen display from the TiVo. Honestly, I'll probably end up optimizing for that on one of the modes, but it's so cool this TV has different modes so you can do different things with it.


I posted these settings because others asked, not because I want you to have your set look like mine. You are free to set the settings to anything you like.

What I was hoping to get out of this posting was more information like Steve Martin's or motjes2.



Yeah, sorry I don't have any tweaks to contribute yet, but I'm exploring, and I'll let you know if I find anything.

I know the ISF compiles a body of knowledge on various sets, would it be true that my local ISF guy would be able to do as good of a job?

Originally posted by jephjeph
First let me say to the extent that I appeared to be criticising your tweaks, I wasn't trying to go there. You've done a great service to the GWII community, so I'd like to say "thank you!" for all your work.
...
I know the ISF compiles a body of knowledge on various sets, would it be true that my local ISF guy would be able to do as good of a job?

I don't mind criticism, but I was concerned about your testing methods since you thought Mild was what I was shooting for. I did think that was sort of an insult since I have seen how bad that is. Hopefully, you can see what kinds of things I am judging the set on and we can speak on common terms.

I think there is still room for improvement on my set, but I only have a few more things I can think of to try. These would include adding a color correction filter, external deinterlacer/scaler and a progressive DVD player. I am not a big believer in DVI being the BAEA (be all end all) of improvements. I have a device that can feed the set with component or DVI and I don't see any improvement in picture quality with DVI and I don't see why it should be better by looking at the schematics..

I think some of the problems I am still seeing on a few of Jim Taylor's test images are probably being caused by DRC, but they are not major.

I wish someone else would get all of these test materials and help look for more improvements or find someone at Sony who knows what else can be done.

I would PM Steve Martin to see if he could recommend an ISF person in your area for a GWII and ask for references. I think there is quite a bit of variability in experience and capability with ISF technicians based on what I have read.

Also, these sets are a little different than your typical CRT RPTV.

umr,

It was clear I had "tweaked," you a bit, and I wasn't sure why-- that wasn't my intent.
...so I pulled up "mild" mode on the 200TVL sharpness displays and I see exactly what you mean. I certainly agree that's not where you were going and that your tweaks display much more resolution than that mode. I should have been more specific about what sharpness/resolution/detail problem I was trying to address that I felt your settings didn't work well for, and that is the display of text on my xbox, and I'm certain that's a whole nother can of worms.

I'm trying to make "vivid' work for the xbox (additional dark area detail frequently == more kills), but as of this moment I'm playing with bone stock "standard" mode.

It's interesting to take the Avia dvd from my cp-72, looking great, duplicate the settings on the Xbox, and have it look like crap. The xbox is currently connected via svideo, and I think rather than fighting it forever I'll get some component cables for it and see if that takes care of it.

On the DVD, I have decided to leave OSP at 0, and PKNG at the default. I run DVD (component, 480i) at reality 48 clarity 50. I find 0,100 to be too smoothing for all but Directv.

When I run 480P, btw, I don't have any ringing on the 200TVL display. Ok, I should say I have the "least," ringing I've seen yet.

The 480P is "usually" better than the 480i version, but I'm still seeing some artifacts (huge noise in the sunset sky in the beginning of "murder by numbers") that exist in both modes, so it's hard to tell if it's source material or not.

Also, backpedaling a little bit, my wife (who is a visual artist, and has about 1000% the color sense that I do) prefers to watch DirecTV in the Mild mode, but with the color saturation cranked up a bit.

The _best_ thing about the GWII, in my opinion, is that you can make it work well for so many different input types. On the 617W it was pretty much try-the-slightly-varying-modes.

Oh yeah, my POP settings definitely stick, at least between soft power cycles. Is the version stored somewhere I can access it?

Originally posted by jephjeph
...It's interesting to take the Avia dvd from my cp-72, looking great, duplicate the settings on the Xbox, and have it look like crap. The xbox is currently connected via svideo, and I think rather than fighting it forever I'll get some component cables for it and see if that takes care of it. ..

...The 480P is "usually" better than the 480i version, but I'm still seeing some artifacts (huge noise in the sunset sky in the beginning of "murder by numbers") that exist in both modes, so it's hard to tell if it's source material or not...

I don't use xbox, but I would try composite and adjusting chroma delay. My Dish 501 is much better with a high quality composite cable than s-video. Many devices require chroma delay adjustment to correct for YC timing errors.

I believe the current crop of Panasonic DVD players are great in progressive mode and poor in interlaced. I play DVDs on my computer with Sonic CinePlayer to judge whether it is on the disk or the TV.

Originally posted by jephjeph
Oh yeah, my POP settings definitely stick, at least between soft power cycles. Is the version stored somewhere I can access it?

If you mean firmware version. I believe so, but I don't remember where exactly. I think it is in one of the first categories.

I believe the current crop of Panasonic DVD players are great in progressive mode and poor in interlaced.

Yeah, I had the Panny XP50 in interlaced mode initially, but switched to progressive and got better results (after adjusting VGAM and GAMM; the progressive output is a bit darker).

Lee

Yeah, I had the Panny XP50 in interlaced mode initially, but switched to progressive and got better results (after adjusting VGAM and GAMM; the progressive output is a bit darker).

Lee,

The same happened to me with the Panasonic HS2. I had to re-adjust the DVD player brightness, gama, etc. since it has its own settings. If yours have the same settings, you might have to re-adjust as well only the Progressive DVD settings not the GWII.

Originally posted by umr
I don't use xbox, but I would try composite and adjusting chroma delay.

Ok, i'll try that, thanks for the idea.


I believe the current crop of Panasonic DVD players are great in progressive mode and poor in interlaced. I play DVDs on my computer with Sonic CinePlayer to judge whether it is on the disk or the TV.

That's interesting... my cp-72 was definitely better on the 617W in 480i than in 480p. In 480P I saw noticable tearing / fringe effects on some sources.

On the GWII, I'd say it's reversed, I definitely see 480P being better than the 480i.

The same happened to me with the Panasonic HS2. I had to re-adjust the DVD player brightness, gama, etc. since it has its own settings. If yours have the same settings, you might have to re-adjust as well only the Progressive DVD settings not the GWII.

The XP50 doesn't have any adjustments for contrast, brightness, etc. in progressive mode. Only settings are for noise reduction. So, I adjusted the GW.

Lee

Umr, I seem to recall that you had a way of making Standar & Vivid mode look like Pro mode. I do not see it anymore and I have delete my previous downloads. I want to start tweaking video 7 through pc dvi and want to use standar mode without disturbing my pro mode. Can you post these once again? Thanks.

Originally posted by motjes2
Umr, I seem to recall that you had a way of making Standar & Vivid mode look like Pro mode. I do not see it anymore and I have delete my previous downloads. I want to start tweaking video 7 through pc dvi and want to use standar mode without disturbing my pro mode. Can you post these once again? Thanks.

I started down that road, but I don't think I finished it. I did not save that information except for hand written notes in my service manual.

You should use the service manual to make all the settings in the mode you are interested in making like Pro the same as Pro. I believe this will work for Standard and Vivid. I did this on my set, but I don't use it anymore because I was able to do everything I needed to with the input based biases in 2170P-2.

This may not work for Mild since it is called out as a special mode in the manual.

Hi JephJeph,

I also am using a CP-72, and I at first watched everything not noticing the "Progressive" Light was OFF on the front panel. I believe after turning the light "On" the picture got a little better -- although not too obviously better.


What are you setting your black level on the CP72 at? "Brighter" or "Darker" ?

James


Originally posted by jephjeph
Ok, i'll try that, thanks for the idea.



That's interesting... my cp-72 was definitely better on the 617W in 480i than in 480p. In 480P I saw noticable tearing / fringe effects on some sources.

On the GWII, I'd say it's reversed, I definitely see 480P being better than the 480i.

Hi All. Over the last few nights,, I've been working on UMRs tweaks. Finally got to watch my first real movie with all my stuff put back together. We watched 'Minority Report'. I suppose this might not have been the best choice since I jsut read that the dvd is imtentionaly 'grainy'. I also noticed what seemed like high contrast in some scenes. I have everythign adjusted accoring to the tweaks and THX Optimode. Is this normal for this dvd, or should I go back and check something else?

BTW, Love the Grand Wega!!

llama,

Try another movie, one whose negative/film hasn't been as bleached/processed/whatever. Minority Report is definitely a grainy, washed-out movie, though cool-looking nonetheless.

Good luck,
Dave

I have my cp72 set to lighter, and it's via some good component cables. When I say "obviously better," I'm talking about the ringing on a 200TVL resolution display.

So, UMR, I pulled up the 10IRE step bars with the various panels off and you were right, my green panel was crushed. I had to dial it down significantly to get it correct, but I think it did improve the detail quite a bit (which makes sense, since green carries most of the picure information, right?) I also adjusted the color decoder and came up with nearly the same values you got.

I adjusted my overscan to slightly less than 4%-- is this the value I want? I guess I don't understand why I wouldn't want to see the whole picture or why overscan is necessary, except to make the slight edge geometry problems invisible.

Additional question for you:

With the 10IRE step bars on, when I shut off the panels, they aren't uniform. For example, the green "black" panel is visibly illuminated. Same with blue. On the red, the three rightmost panels seem to be 100% black. Should I be adjusting the CUT values to make them all go evenly to black or what?

Additionally, is there some way to set which Advanced video settings and input defaults to?
I did lose quite a bit of picture brighness doing this, but I turned UPOG (I think, the input specific brightness) all the way and it seemed to help.

On directv, I'm sticking with OSP=0, PKNG=31, reality=0 clarity=100, VGAM=31, and GAMM=6. GAMM=0 was just too dark for most TV shows, even if it is more correct.

Oh, btw, if you are in the service menu and change aspect ratio all your settings get lost. It took me 2 hours to do the white balance / color decoder because of this :(

Originally posted by jephjeph
....(which makes sense, since green carries most of the picure information, right?) ...

..I adjusted my overscan to slightly less than 4%-- is this the value I want? I guess I don't understand why I wouldn't want to see the whole picture or why overscan is necessary, except to make the slight edge geometry problems invisible.

Additional question for you:

With the 10IRE step bars on, when I shut off the panels, they aren't uniform. For example, the green "black" panel is visibly illuminated. Same with blue. On the red, the three rightmost panels seem to be 100% black. Should I be adjusting the CUT values to make them all go evenly to black or what?

Additionally, is there some way to set which Advanced video settings and input defaults to?
I did lose quite a bit of picture brighness doing this, but I turned UPOG (I think, the input specific brightness) all the way and it seemed to help.

On directv, I'm sticking with OSP=0, PKNG=31, reality=0 clarity=100, VGAM=31, and GAMM=6. GAMM=0 was just too dark for most TV shows, even if it is more correct.

I don't know about most of the information, but the eye is very sensitive to green.

There are a couple of reasons to leave some overscan. Steve Martin indicated that when he pushed it beyond that he lost vertical resolution. I have not seen it, but I believe he saw it. The other reason is some devices will show garbage if you push it too far. I personally don't care to see strange things on my display.

Remember using only the blue or green panel adds a bias. You need to be careful about using that mode to judge black or near black levels and white or near white levels. A filter is better for the purpose of looking for a saturated panel. Don't adjust the gray scale with anything other than blue off or all on.

I assume you mean the DRC defaults under advanced settings. I believe there may be. The AINI & BINI settings under DRCV look like good possibilities. I have not tried these myself though so BEWARE.

I don't know what you mean about input defaults.

What you describe does not sound quite right. It sounds like you cut the drives too far. What values did you end up with for the cuts and drives? I would guess the right values for most sets would be within + or - 10 of mine.

Hi all,

I'm going to start my tweaking today as the set has been on now for 80 hrs :). Just a curious question on something that i obviously will NOT do. There is the setting that you use to adjust greyscale that allows you to turn off certain LCD panels.

What happens if you turn off all the panels, and then accidentally save it??? I wonder if the TV would allow you to do something silly like that. I guess what you could do is turn them back on "Blind" by counting menu steps down.

JephJeph:

I also have my CP72 set for the "Lighter" mode. I noticed in THX Optimizer, in this setting that it does not output Blacker-than-Black Pluge. Are you seeing the same thing? I believe for the GWII though, that "Lighter" is probably the correct setting because of the lack of deep blacks anyway on the set right? Otherwise, we would waste contrast ratio displaying the 0-7.5IRE that the set can't display?

Will let you know the details of my tweaking when I get done today.

Originally posted by wihardjw
...What happens if you turn off all the panels, and then accidentally save it??? ...


I would assume you would now have a permanent black screen.

Originally posted by umr
I would assume you would now have a permanent black screen.

Yes you would have a black screen all you do is turn off the TV and by default the panels all turn back on.

Originally posted by wihardjw
H

JephJeph:

I also have my CP72 set for the "Lighter" mode. I noticed in THX Optimizer, in this setting that it does not output Blacker-than-Black Pluge. Are you seeing the same thing? I believe for the GWII though, that "Lighter" is probably the correct setting because of the lack of deep blacks anyway on the set right? Otherwise, we would waste contrast ratio displaying the 0-7.5IRE that the set can't display?

Will let you know the details of my tweaking when I get done today.

Er, it does pass blacker than black with Avia. The set can be set to display 0-7.5 IRE fine, that's not what is meant by the black level problem. To see the black level program, turn the lights off and go to an unused input. Notice it's not black.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but you can calibrate this set to display signals for any range, and the black _detail_ is excellent.

Originally posted by jephjeph
...Perhaps I'm missing something, but you can calibrate this set to display signals for any range, and the black _detail_ is excellent.

Sounds like a little exaggeration to me. I would say barely acceptable.

Originally posted by umr
I don't know about most of the information, but the eye is very sensitive to green.

There are a couple of reasons to leave some overscan. Steve Martin indicated that when he pushed it beyond that he lost vertical resolution. I have not seen it, but I believe he saw it. The other reason is some devices will show garbage if you push it too far. I personally don't care to see strange things on my display.


So by pushing it too far, you mean reducing the overscane below a certain amount? Or put another way is >5% overscan a problem or <5%? I can see either being an issue, though <%5 would make sense from a resolution perspective. What overscan would you recommend?


Remember using only the blue or green panel adds a bias. You need to be careful about using that mode to judge black or near black levels and white or near white levels. A filter is better for the purpose of looking for a saturated panel. Don't adjust the gray scale with anything other than blue off or all on.


This is what I did incorrectly then. I thought I was doing better by turning the panels off than by using the filter.

Does that also hold true for the color decoder settings? Because using the "shut off the panel" mode I ended up with more or less the same settings as you did.


I assume you mean the DRC defaults under advanced settings. I believe there may be. The AINI & BINI settings under DRCV look like good possibilities. I have not tried these myself though so BEWARE.


I'll give them a try.


I don't know what you mean about input defaults.


What I mean about input defaults is that when I'm wathcing sattellite, and I set it to DRC Custom 3, and then I go to XBOX, and change it to DRC Custom 1, when I go back to Satellite it doesn't go back to custom 3?

Maybe it's because it's a picture mode thing (ie, vivid, pro) instead of an input based thing? If so, then I finally found a use I'll put to Vivid, I think I'll duplicate pro, then crank up the color & brightness & DRC & sharpness a bit, and I'll have a perfect XBOX mode. Currently Vivid is a bit... over enhanced.


What you describe does not sound quite right. It sounds like you cut the drives too far. What values did you end up with for the cuts and drives? I would guess the right values for most sets would be within + or - 10 of mine.

Originally posted by umr
Sounds like a little exaggeration to me. I would say barely acceptable.

To each their own. I found the details on Moria (LOTR) to be better on my user-mode-only tweaked GWII than the 617W I had for a week, which made all of the darks ... too dark, and if I increased the brightness to show the details then it made "snow" everywhere and made the background grey.

The GWII is also better than my 32" 4:3 direct view CRT, no matter how I tweaked it.

The only other one I've spent enough time with to compare is the pioneer elite, which was indeed better, but it was more money, and huge and bulky.

I'd still categorize it "excellent," and I'm "completely satisfied."

So by pushing it too far, you mean reducing the overscane below a certain amount?

Yes. Although I see no reason to go above 5% unless the TV had a problem below that point.

What overscan would you recommend?

It depends. I am using about 3% and have seen no resolution problem. I would not drop it to a point where I lost resolution. I might try and go to 0% if I was using a PC for gaming, but I am not.

Does that also hold true for the color decoder settings? Because using the "shut off the panel" mode I ended up with more or less the same settings as you did.

The green and red filters with Avia are inferior to switching the panels for calibrating the color decoder. You just need to make sure on the green that you drop the picture temporarily so that the panel is not saturated.

What I mean about input defaults is that when I'm wathcing sattellite, and I set it to DRC Custom 3, and then I go to XBOX, and change it to DRC Custom 1, when I go back to Satellite it doesn't go back to custom 3?

Maybe it's because it's a picture mode thing (ie, vivid, pro) instead of an input based thing? If so, then I finally found a use I'll put to Vivid, I think I'll duplicate pro, then crank up the color & brightness & DRC & sharpness a bit, and I'll have a perfect XBOX mode. Currently Vivid is a bit... over enhanced.


I believe you may be correct about them being associated with a picture mode. Modifying Vivid would be an option if that is the case.

The green and red filters with Avia are inferior to switching the panels for calibrating the color decoder. You just need to make sure on the green that you drop the picture temporarily so that the panel is not saturated.



Well, I'm still at work but when I get home I'll play a bit and let you know what I find.

But I still have a question:

Isn't any panel saturation bad? If I have to turn down the picture to do the decoder, then doesn't that mean there is either nonlinearity of the color along the way? I know you've measured your set so that isn't the case, but I'm still confused.

I guess I'm thinking of a white veritcal IRE bar pattern as being the sum of each panel, green, red, and blue. If the third bar from the left is fully saturated in green, doesn't that mean that the first and second are abnormally short of green?

Is the bias that shutting the panels off induce a gain bias, or is it something else? I see something going on because when I have it set to green only, then the rightmost "black" bar is pretty bright green, and when they are all on I'm not seeing it be green.

I suspect I cut my green drive way too much. Interestingly enough, it still looks better than before ... :)

All panel saturation is bad for normal viewing, but we can adjust for it on the color decoder calibration. It would be devastating for gray scale calibration though.

I'll try to explain what I believe is happening with the blue and green panels.

The following numbers are fictitious and for example purposes only.

Green Panel Off = 0.0 Volts (Calibrated Brightness Level, 0% Output)
Green Panel Saturated = 1.0 Volts (Calibrated Picture Level, 100% Output)

When the green panel is the only one on, 0.2 volts is added to the normal signal.

The new values are:

Green Panel 0% Output = 0.2 Volts (Bright Blacks)

Green Panel 100% Output = 1.2 Volts (Saturated Panel)

To bring the panels back in range the Picture level (calibration) needs to be lowered such that the voltage to the green panel is below 1.0 volts. This works because the voltage signal was added across the board in a linear fashion. The picture setting is also not changing the ratio of the colors in each bar. It is only adjusting the overall illumination level.

Because it is only a bias and it is added across the board the color decoder is still correct. This would not be true if it was a different effect in each color bar.

I don't know why this is happening, but it is.

The white panel is the sum of the red green and blue. When you are setting the decoder you are setting the level of a color to be the same as its level in its complements, white and its own bar.

I think you probably did cut the green too much. It probably needed to be cut if your set is like mine. You may have just overshot a little on the other side. Turn off the blue panel on a gray ramp to check this. You should see a red tint if you are green deficient. Be careful not to lower all of your drives. This will cost you valuable contrast ratio.

Color Bar Info (http://www.miranda.com/library.en/Technical%20Notes/TN-05_ColorBarsSignal.pdf)

Hi JephJeph,

I must be doing something wrong with the CP72, or the THX optimizer is not showing pluge. I do understand the black level problem -- as in the screen "Glows" when "No Image" is on the screen. I did put up the THX Optimzer Brightness test that is supposed to have blacker-than-black, and increased the "Brightness" Setting all the way to the right.

I never saw the "Blacker than Black" that is supposed to be behind the "THX" Logo. (Even though at this point the THX logo is very bright since "Brightness" is all the way up.

I'll check my CP72 setup again to see if I can get the blacker-than-black to show up, and then calibrate appropriately. Right now I am just using the 7th darkest black box in the THX calibrator to set brightness.

I guess I am also talking about the difference between black DETAIL, and black LEVEL. To get the most black DETAIL should we use the 7.5IRE Black as the basis in the DVD player (Lighter setting), or the 0 IRE black in the DVD player as a basis (Darker Setting)?

I would guess to use the 7.5IRE Black as the basis, because the points between 0-7.5IRE do not exist in most source material (??? Not sure there), and therefore will lose that dynamic range, and reduce the capability of producing that level of detail.

Actually, I believe the lack of black LEVEL is not so bad -- so long as I can get black DETAIL present. You can fool with the black level by putting a backlight to make it seem "Blacker" in comparison to everything else -- as I notice this in "Bright" scenes were "Black" exists -- the blacks look JET black in comparison to the brighter areas next to it.

I think I remember seeing some funky Optical Illusion picture of a checkerboard, where 2 squares were exactly the same shade of grey. However, because of surrounding squares around the 2 grey squares -- one seemed to be a LOT DARKER than the other. funny that!

Going to do the tweaks now after I get home, so hopefully I can find that extra black Detail, because without the tweaks they are obviously missing (When compared to viewing the DVD on a SoftDVD / Computer Monitor).


Originally posted by jephjeph
Er, it does pass blacker than black with Avia. The set can be set to display 0-7.5 IRE fine, that's not what is meant by the black level problem. To see the black level program, turn the lights off and go to an unused input. Notice it's not black.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but you can calibrate this set to display signals for any range, and the black _detail_ is excellent.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense actually. I was watching TV and noted that the people looked kind of red, so I pulled the red down, instead of pushing the green up like I should have.

I may end up liking gamm 0 more after this, since I'm sure I'll get some brightness (and contrast) back out of this.

To get the most black DETAIL should we use the 7.5IRE Black as the basis in the DVD player (Lighter setting), or the 0 IRE black in the DVD player as a basis (Darker Setting)?

I would use the lighter setting, because it will agree the best with any other NTSC device. The 0 IRE can give you more resolution, but I don't think that is an issue on this set.

Originally posted by jephjeph
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense actually. I was watching TV and noted that the people looked kind of red, so I pulled the red down, instead of pushing the green up like I should have.

I may end up liking gamm 0 more after this, since I'm sure I'll get some brightness (and contrast) back out of this.

DO NOT adjust the cuts and drives with anything other than a gray image. The color decoder is what you use for color errors.

Ok, I'm reporting back as promised. When using the avia filters it turned out that my limiting panel wasn't green after all, it was red! So the color settings were pretty far off. I ended up with BDRV=47, RDRV=32, GDRV=35, GCUT=29, BCUT=17, RCUT=27. The BDRV number looks high vs your settings but I have a 6500k reference card and I think it looks pretty close.

My color decoder settings are RYR 7, RYB 15, GYR 10, GYB 2.

I have to say, watching DirecTV I finally "saw the light" and went reality = 0 clarity = 100, OSP=1. It appears to me that OSP=1 and PKNG=0 does the same thing, btw.

I reduced my overscan to about 3%, and with regards to verticle sharpness, at least on my set there is a very visible "cliff" over which if you adjust MDVS, you see the sharpness go. Go back one tick, and it returns. I tried cranking it down 10 clicks from this and couldn't see any difference on the 200TVL pattern, so I left it one tick away from the problem. Easy enough.

My brigtness = 23, color = 30, hue=31, sharp =31.

One more thing I discovered is that the black levels on the same source need to be recalibrated for 480P vs 480I. I adjusted this by setting SBRT from 31 to 44 on that input... does that sound like a reasonable solution? Otherwise I have to move the brightness setting, and it of course is then wrong for the Svideo inputs.

It also looks like SCOL and SHUE could use a bit of tweaking in 480P mode.

OSP doesn't seem to do anything in 480P mode. In general, 480P is much better, in particular the 6MHZ swatch on the 200TVL pattern is rock solid and doesn't flicker like it does on the 480i.

Originally posted by wihardjw

I must be doing something wrong with the CP72, or the THX optimizer is not showing pluge.

I'll check my CP72 setup again to see if I can get the blacker-than-black to show up, and then calibrate appropriately. Right now I am just using the 7th darkest black box in the THX calibrator to set brightness.


I'd just get Avia and save the hassle.
I'm using the lighter setting.


Actually, I believe the lack of black LEVEL is not so bad -- so long as I can get black DETAIL present. You can fool with the black level by putting a backlight to make it seem "Blacker" in comparison to everything else -- as I notice this in "Bright" scenes were "Black" exists -- the blacks look JET black in comparison to the brighter areas next to it.


Right, I never watch in a totally black room anyhow. Avia has a 5% and 10% backlight setup pattern, so I may end up doing that. Just need to figure out a way to make it come on / off with the set, probably an X10 macro from the pronto.

I just watched chapter 27-30 of Lord of the Rings, again. I know I've got my black settings right when you see nothing before he strikes his staff, but do see a little of his head before he stomps it on the ground.


Going to do the tweaks now after I get home, so hopefully I can find that extra black Detail, because without the tweaks they are obviously missing (When compared to viewing the DVD on a SoftDVD / Computer Monitor).

I don't have a DVD player computer, just an old direct view CRT which has worse black level problems, if that's possible.

My 60" GWII has one noticeable problem.

The left third of screen has a greenish tint and the right side is more reddish. The center is very fine. This shows up clearly when the picture is black/white. It is also noticeable when viewing two side by side talking heads. The one on left has no pinkish/natural appearance but more like paleface. Also left side doesn't appear as finely focused. Most scenes are not noticeably effected.

Is this fixable by tweaks or is it something more serious?

i hope this isnt really stupid but when i do the first few settings changes using umrs guide, they dont seem to stick. i go to pro mode then turn off turn on with display 5 vol+ and power. then when i change osp to 1 then pkng to 0 then gamm to 31 i hit muting and enter to save. then i hit picture to scroll through the modes back to pro and the settings revert back to the original values. has anyone seent this or have any ideas on what i am doing wrong? tia...

Well, I had some tweaking fun today, and putting in my results and questions!

JephJeph: I agree with the Avia bit. I ordered it and its on its way. I also have Video Essentials somewhere in my boxed-up DVDs I haven't dug into again yet. Sounds like you got a lot of your black detail back judging on what you can see in LOTR! That's awesome!

All tweaks were done with CP72, Progressive Scan, via Component INs Input #5.

Here are some notes:

1) I adjusted the GAMM and VGAM on the set. I set VGAM to 31, and played with GAMM to see would it would do. It seems that the lower the numbers, the darker colors became darker, and the higher the GAMM the brighter the darker colors. Anyway, my default was 4. I set it to 0 and watched the scene get progressively "Darker". At this point I had to bump up the user menu "Brightness" to the halfway mark to get it back to calibrated level (Using THX Optimizer). I then set the GAMM Up to around 6 -- which made all the dark grey images a brighter grey. Then, I brought brightness on the User Menu DOWN to compensate to calibration level again. I then watched some scenes using both settings, but settled on 6, with a lower brightness in the user level menu.

Now, this seems odd to me. It seems the higher number I put in, the brighter the dark grey gets, which means I should get emphasis on dark grey details (?). Therefore, how come UMR has chosen 0 as the best GAMM setting -- which for me, requires brightness to be pumped up to calibrate? Or, is using the 0 GAMM and having brightness UP the best way to get the most details?

I did not manage to get enough time to do a good comparison back and forth between GAMM 0 and high brightness VS. GAMM 6 and low brightness though since it takes some time to switch between test patterns and video material and getting in/out of the service menu. Any information on what I am seeing here?

2) I noticed after watching segments of Oceans Eleven, the Dark Greys sometimes have a BLUEish tint to them. Has anyone else noticed that the dark greys have a blueish tint? Since the aspect ratio was 2.35:1, I had black bars top/bottom -- the black bars were NOT bluish in tint. Only the grey in the MIDDLE of the screen was bluish in tint. I seemed to have noticed this in AOTC too. Maybe the blue is letting through too much light in comparison to the other panels at the "Darker" levels. Is this what the BCUT/RCUT values are supposed to take care of, or maybe the color decoder adjustments? (I have not made those adjusts yet)

Anyway, after tweaking all of this and getting brightness/contrast set up -- I am quite happy with the black detail of the set right now. When it first arrived I found dark scenes annoying. After the tweaks, and adjustments I find the detail is back and dark scenes are absolutely acceptable, and the bright scenes are as amazing as ever!


Will continue tweaking some more of course as I go! Thanks to UMR, and Motjes for doing the hard work and putting together the guide, and to everyone else posting more info and hints! This is a great thread! I can't imagine owning a GWII and not doing these tweaks as the difference is significant!

jephjeph

My brigtness = 23, color = 30, hue=31, sharp =31.

I suspect your sharpness may be too high if you have done all of the tweaks. Go to the Avia sharpness pattern. Lower sharpness to the minimum and increase it until the thin vertical and horizontal lines are the same width.

One more thing I discovered is that the black levels on the same source need to be recalibrated for 480P vs 480I. I adjusted this by setting SBRT from 31 to 44 on that input... does that sound like a reasonable solution?

That will work, but UBOG is intended for that purpose.

It also looks like SCOL and SHUE could use a bit of tweaking in 480P mode.

You could use those, but UCOF and UHOF are intended for that purpose. There are multiple was to do things at times on this TV.

In general, 480P is much better, in particular the 6MHZ swatch on the 200TVL pattern is rock solid and doesn't flicker like it does on the 480i.

I believe that is a byproduct of DRC.

Originally posted by hbradar
My 60" GWII has one noticeable problem.

The left third of screen has a greenish tint and the right side is more reddish. The center is very fine. This shows up clearly when the picture is black/white. It is also noticeable when viewing two side by side talking heads. The one on left has no pinkish/natural appearance but more like paleface. Also left side doesn't appear as finely focused. Most scenes are not noticeably effected.

Is this fixable by tweaks or is it something more serious?

There is a color shift on many of these sets. It is most visible on gray backgrounds. I have been trying to find out how to adjust 3d gamma on this set, but I've had not luck. I think it is a property of the polarizers and the typical uneven transmission pattern of LCDs.

Your best bet currently is to get your color temperature closer by adjusting the gray scale. There will still be a shift, but you can reduce its visibility. I would shoot for yellowish shifting to blue.

I have not noticed uneven focus on my set.

It seems the higher number I put in, the brighter the dark grey gets, which means I should get emphasis on dark grey details (?). Therefore, how come UMR has chosen 0 as the best GAMM setting -- which for me, requires brightness to be pumped up to calibrate? Or, is using the 0 GAMM and having brightness UP the best way to get the most details?

A gamma less than 2.2 is not how the director intended it to look. When you lower gamma (raise GAMM or lower VGAM) the low IRE grays become lighter. The goal here is not a brightness setting, but a resultant gamma of 2.2 to 2.5. You need to recalibrate picture and brightness just like you did though to judge the difference in the settings.

I chose 2.2 as my target because this set has a low contrast ratio and elevated blacks. The elevated blacks result in your watching the set with greater room lighting. A gamma of 2.2 is generally preferred for high room lighting levels. The low constrast ratio makes it difficult to see the details in the low level grays if you boost gamma higher. Therefore, 2.2 makes the most sense to me. I also do not like the washed out look of gammas that are significantly lower.

I noticed after watching segments of Oceans Eleven, the Dark Greys sometimes have a BLUEish tint to them. Has anyone else noticed that the dark greys have a blueish tint? Since the aspect ratio was 2.35:1, I had black bars top/bottom -- the black bars were NOT bluish in tint. Only the grey in the MIDDLE of the screen was bluish in tint. I seemed to have noticed this in AOTC too. Maybe the blue is letting through too much light in comparison to the other panels at the "Darker" levels. Is this what the BCUT/RCUT values are supposed to take care of, or maybe the color decoder adjustments? (I have not made those adjusts yet)

The drives and cuts are to even the color of gray from dark to bright. The decoder is to set the use of the primaries to create a color scene.

Originally posted by jpcapone
i hope this isnt really stupid but when i do the first few settings changes using umrs guide, they dont seem to stick. i go to pro mode then turn off turn on with display 5 vol+ and power. then when i change osp to 1 then pkng to 0 then gamm to 31 i hit muting and enter to save. then i hit picture to scroll through the modes back to pro and the settings revert back to the original values. has anyone seent this or have any ideas on what i am doing wrong? tia...

When you press [Mute] [Enter] you should see the word WRITE in red in the upper right corner for several seconds if you are doing this right.

As long as you save the settings before changing the picture mode or input it sticks for me.

Hi Umr,

I noticed earlier in the thread, someone asked this question:

Did you appy the gamm=4 and blk=0 to your dvd input, also, or only dish?

Which is different from your guide. Was this the original values, and you eventually set GAMM to 0? I find this interesting, because this was the factory default of my component inputs w/ 480P signal -- was it not on yours? If not, maybe sony has started changing in on new sets? However VGAMM was set to 28, so I raised to 31. That's why I was trying to figure out why i was raising the GAMM to 6 instead of going DOWN closer to your values.

Originally posted by umr
A gamma less than 2.2 is not how the director intended it to look. When you lower gamma (raise GAMM or lower VGAM) the low IRE grays become lighter. The goal here is not a brightness setting, but a resultant gamma of 2.2 to 2.5. You need to recalibrate picture and brightness just like you did though to judge the difference in the settings.


Anyway, I am going to go back to 0 again to see the difference again if films were designed at around 2.2 - 2.5. Hopefully my avia has arrived today so I can get some better test patterns. Does it seem correct that i have to raise brightness fairly high to make up for the GAMM = 0 for calibration level? This was even in a totally black room. The PDF lists 31% as correct, but it seems I need more on my set if GAMM = 0.


The drives and cuts are to even the color of gray from dark to bright. The decoder is to set the use of the primaries to create a color scene.

So do you believe that the Blueish-Gray that I am seeing in my set is simply a problem with the drive/cut values? It seems to have that problem only in particular dark shades of grey. The brightest greys/whites do not have this blue shading.

Originally posted by wihardjw
Hi Umr,
.... Was this the original values, and you eventually set GAMM to 0? I find this interesting, because this was the factory default of my component inputs w/ 480P signal -- was it not on yours? If not, maybe sony has started changing in on new sets? ...

...Does it seem correct that i have to raise brightness fairly high to make up for the GAMM = 0 for calibration level? ...

...So do you believe that the Blueish-Gray that I am seeing in my set is simply a problem with the drive/cut values? ...

Yes my original GAMM was 4 and I changed it to zero for 480i. The service manual shows the correct initial values for my set on GAMM. It sounds like Sony has changed the factory defaults on GAMM. The VGAM change is fairly minor compared to GAMM.

You may require a higher brightness setting if your player is not using 7.5 IRE for black. Other settings can effect this as well like UBOG.

Yes, the drive/cut values can correct that problem with blueish grays. This is not real easy to fix though.

umr,

Just curious if you have done the filter mod yet or not? If not, is this still something that you are going to pursue and try out? If you do, I'm hoping that the results are fairly phenomenal with regards to contrast improvements.

Originally posted by Ten 99
umr,

Just curious if you have done the filter mod yet or not? If not, is this still something that you are going to pursue and try out? If you do, I'm hoping that the results are fairly phenomenal with regards to contrast improvements.

I am still pursuing it. I am waiting on a Kodak Color Print Filter Kit that contains a series of color correction filters. They are currently on order and should get here in early March.

I am hoping that the 0-10 % gray levels can be corrected much closer to D65 along with a boost in contrast ratio.

I'll let everyone know how it turns out. I will take pictures of the installation and provide new information on illumination levels and gray scale performance if I end up doing it.

Umr! thanks for the tweaks,sure gave me a head start on this GWII.I 've tweaked tvs for yrs.
I do have a question my set had no bad pixela three weeks ago, now it has four sub-lit blue pixels and a spot of three red sub-lit pixels together.Three feet away they are not visable.The set is great and I hesitate to return it.I have stores extented warranty.What would you do?
30 days almost up!..............shine

umr,

I've had some difficulty centering a 4:3 image. The MID2 settings (DRHP and DRHS) don't seem to move the image at all. Any ideas about what could be going on??

Thanks.

Originally posted by shine'ola
Umr! thanks for the tweaks,sure gave me a head start on this GWII.I 've tweaked tvs for yrs.
I do have a question my set had no bad pixela three weeks ago, now it has four sub-lit blue pixels and a spot of three red sub-lit pixels together.Three feet away they are not visable.The set is great and I hesitate to return it.I have stores extented warranty.What would you do?
30 days almost up!..............shine

I hope you can find some things the rest of us have missed. You might want to download the service manual. The link is in this thread.

I would not bother with returning it, but you must make the call.

Originally posted by Harry Brandt
umr,

I've had some difficulty centering a 4:3 image. The MID2 settings (DRHP and DRHS) don't seem to move the image at all. Any ideas about what could be going on??

Thanks.

I set mine up using my DVD player into the composite input on Video 1. I did not try any other input. I assume you had it in Normal (4:3) mode when you tried this.

Originally posted by umr
I set mine up using my DVD player into the composite input on Video 1. I did not try any other input. I assume you had it in Normal (4:3) mode when you tried this.

Got it worked out. My problem was that I was in Full (16:9) mode...but with a 4:3 broadcast image. Everything is centered now. Thanks.

Should I be concerned if the color is different when I have the same exact source displayed side by side (the picture-in-picture feature)??

No matter what source I pick, if I display it in identically sized windows side by side, the image on the left is a little more yellow, and the image on the right is a little more red.

Does this mean there is something wrong with my GWII??

Thanks for all the help!!!!!

what settings directly effect edge enhancement? also my picture looks really really good but there are times i notice things looking jaggy. what settings in the service menu do i need to change to make this better?

Originally posted by umr
I am still pursuing it. I am waiting on a Kodak Color Print Filter Kit that contains a series of color correction filters. They are currently on order and should get here in early March.

I am hoping that the 0-10 % gray levels can be corrected much closer to D65 along with a boost in contrast ratio.

I'll let everyone know how it turns out. I will take pictures of the installation and provide new information on illumination levels and gray scale performance if I end up doing it.


Cool. I'm just glad you're still going to attempt this tweak to see what results (positive or negative) can be achieved. If a pretty good enhancement to contrast and blacks can be achieved, it may help sway my decision a bit more as I draw closer to making a decision on a TV. Fortunately (maybe not), there's a bit more competition out there to choose from. GW2, Panny DLP (haven't seen the new set yet, just last years), Sammy DLP (not exactly thrilled, but haven't seen a tweaked unit), the Phillips LCOS (not out yet), and the Toshiba LCOS. I've been leaning towards the Toshiba LCOS, but I'm not sure the difference in PQ is worth the price premium. My only real gripe with GW2 is the contrast, but I don't find it dismal. I would just like to be able to improve on it a bit more.

So, I thank you for your pioneering efforts, umr!

Originally posted by jpcapone
what settings directly effect edge enhancement? also my picture looks really really good but there are times i notice things looking jaggy. what settings in the service menu do i need to change to make this better?

I have found nothing in the SM that effects this directly. The DRC settings and sharpness in the User Menu seem to have the most effect on a given source. When you implement the PIC-BOOST2 and MID5 adjustments you can lower the sharpness and not loose detail. I believe I have seen some improvement from that.

Originally posted by turtlebird
Should I be concerned if the color is different when I have the same exact source displayed side by side (the picture-in-picture feature)??

No matter what source I pick, if I display it in identically sized windows side by side, the image on the left is a little more yellow, and the image on the right is a little more red.

Does this mean there is something wrong with my GWII??

Thanks for all the help!!!!!

I see the same thing. It could be the difference in signal path. The service manual does have different settings for Twin-Left in some cases. You could also be seeing a shift in color across the panels.

Question for UMR -

I have done all of your tweaks and they have greatly improved my PQ. Thanks for all your research.

I do have an additional question for you - I have a Samsung TS-160 HD set top box that I am currently only using for OTA HD (DirecTV is getting installed soon) and I have it hooked up via the DVI and also via component cables for comparison. With all the tweaks being equal across vid7 (DVI) and vid6 (component) I am noticing that the component feed is much deeper and clearer than the DVI feed. It is sometimes difficult to gauge because I have to physically flip a switch on the back of the STB to switch between inputs, but last night I was doing that while watching Leno in HD and the component was showing much more detail in the black areas. I tried messing with brightness and picture a little and could not get the DVI to look any different.

Is there any particular tweak that would help me bring DVI equal to the component feed?

Thanks.

Originally posted by umr
Here is some very interesting information. This fills in some of the gaps in the GWII service manual. I have not had time to fully digest this, but some things look very similar.

GWI Service Manual (http://service-asc.sel.sony.com/SonyESI/pdf/99654400.1/manual.pdf)

Though I couldn't save to disk/hard-drive the entire GW I Service Manual, no matter how hard I tried -- the download halted, and the resulting file was corrupt -- I was able to print out selected pages. It seems to me that Section 3 is really the only important part for GW II owners (i.e., pp. 16-43), and perhaps the first few pages including the table of contents (i.e., pp. 1-8). I was able to print these and now have the GW I manual pages that I need, in addition to my GW II Service Manual.

The rest of the GW I manual pages are just schematics and blow-ups of the guts of this TV, and parts numbers -- all of which would be perhaps different on the GW II, as well as nothing I would be messing with anyway, as all I'll do is SM tweaks, no handling of internal parts.

Please correct/inform me if I should print out other pages of the GW I manual. And, if you've had download problems, too, with this PDF file, you also may only need to print these 3 dozen or so pages.

Thanks also to "Rop" for trying to FTP the manual to me.

Is there any particular tweak that would help me bring DVI equal to the component feed?

It took me quite a while to get DVI close to right. I would focus on the following settings.

UPOG
UBOG
SCOL
SHUE
SPIC
GYB
GAMM
VGAM

UMR -

Are you using your DVI for your HD feed? I thought I remember you saying you were having problems and were just using component. I think it is going to be almost impossible for me to get the DVI right, without being able to send it a test image. I read how you were able to with your equipment, but I'm at a loss as to how to really tune this input - or any other non-DVD input without a good test image. I have been just using the AVIA DVD on my dvd input and using those values across all other inputs. Is there any other way to do it?

Originally posted by umr
It took me quite a while to get DVI close to right. I would focus on the following settings.

UPOG
UBOG
SCOL
SHUE
SPIC
GYB
GAMM
VGAM

I'm actually finding the opposite of the person who is getting clearer images through the component input....that is, that my DVI input is clearly better and clearer, perhaps because the signal path is remaining entirely digital from the source to the GWII. However, would you mind posting your current Video 7 DVI settings for the above parameters if they have changed. I'd like to compare them to my current settings.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Harry Brandt
I'm actually finding the opposite of the person who is getting clearer images through the component input....that is, that my DVI input is clearly better and clearer, perhaps because the signal path is remaining entirely digital from the source to the GWII. However, would you mind posting your current Video 7 DVI settings for the above parameters if they have changed. I'd like to compare them to my current settings.

Thanks.

My current settings are those in the GWXBR Tweaks file.

I am guessing the primary differences in signal quality assuming both inputs are properly calibrated and tweaked are due to cabling and D/A conversion in the Sony vs. the STB.

Originally posted by mnb
UMR -

Are you using your DVI for your HD feed? I thought I remember you saying you were having problems and were just using component. I think it is going to be almost impossible for me to get the DVI right, without being able to send it a test image. I read how you were able to with your equipment, but I'm at a loss as to how to really tune this input - or any other non-DVD input without a good test image. I have been just using the AVIA DVD on my dvd input and using those values across all other inputs. Is there any other way to do it?

Yes, I am using DVI for HD currently for HDCP compatibility and increased tweakability.

I did have many problems getting it calibrated. Using my DVD player through my STB helped some. The best thing I found other than a HD signal generator :) was recording some very bright and dark scenes on D-VHS and using those to set UBOG and UPOG. There is a scene on PBS where they show a gold Buddha in a temple. He is lit with sunlight on a very dark background. That single image seems to have both extremes to test for black level and white "chrush".

I found copying the values from my DVD player did not work at all. You might have more luck using the DVD values for DVI if you can set it to 0 IRE blacks. Mine only outputs 7.5 IRE blacks so it was of little value.

I have a new Panny X30 DVD player, it has a 'lighter' and 'darker' black setting. So which one should I use? Should I use one to calibrate the DVD input and the other to help find the settings for the DVI?

I believe I have switched between the modes and I don't remember seeing a difference. Maybe I wasn't looking for the right thing, or looking at a feed that it would not make a difference on.

The Panasonic "Lighter" and "Darker" modes have no effect when it is set to progressive mode (which always uses 0 IRE for black, like the "Darker" setting).

When set to interlaced, the "Lighter" means 7.5 IRE for black, "Darker" means 0 IRE for black. Darker would therefore give you more bandwidth when using the DVD player in interlaced mode, but "Lighter" would make it consistent with your other NTSC devices, VCRs, DirecTV boxes, etc.

So, I would set it to Lighter and hook it up S-Video to calibrate that input/scan rate for other devices.

But, I would use the player in Progressive mode so that setting wouldn't matter for day to day use.

Thanks Steve.

I'll be trying out an XP30 myself next week. That would have thrown me for a loop.

mnb,

Sounds like you were already using 0 IRE blacks. I guess copying is not going to work.

Thanks guys.

My confusion level is getting less and less every day. I almost wish I hadn't started reading this forum, so that I wouldn't be trying to constantly tweak my settings.

I probably would have been happy just leaving everything alone if I hadn't read that it could be better. I'm sure my wife would be happier also, so that she could actually watch the set without me suddenly wanting to change inputs/go into service mode/ try this/ try that......

Ignorance was bliss.

Mike

My quest was actually started by my wife.

She kept saying "GET THAT THING OUT OF HERE" because Dish was so bad. She is happy now, but she complained about my constant tweaking as well. The only tweak she really cared for was getting the gamma correct. I think she could care less about any of the others.

I guess she'll have a real fit when she sees how you have to install a color correcting filter.:cool:

I can guarantee that I won't be installing a color filter. I'm already way over my head....

Originally posted by mnb
Thanks guys.

My confusion level is getting less and less every day. I almost wish I hadn't started reading this forum, so that I wouldn't be trying to constantly tweak my settings.

I probably would have been happy just leaving everything alone if I hadn't read that it could be better. I'm sure my wife would be happier also, so that she could actually watch the set without me suddenly wanting to change inputs/go into service mode/ try this/ try that......

Ignorance was bliss.

Mike

But this is why Sony TVs are so great. You have all kinds of SM tweaks you can do, they print the Service Manuals timely, so you can buy one to have as soon as you get your TV -- you can almost do your own ISF job! :D

After following this post for two months now, and becoming a total tweak addict, I have the following feedback that you may or may not find of interest.

I had done so much tweaking over the past several weeks (though none beyond what UMR has covered in his tweak file) that I was beginning to forget how the picture originally looked. So, having recorded all of my original settings, I thought it might be fun to restore my set back to its factory condition just to see how far I had come. (It took about 5 minutes, having now become an "expert" in navigating through the Service Menu.) After doing so I immediately followed by running an Avia check on all Picture Modes (Vivid, Standard, Pro and, yes, even Mild) and made User Menu adjustments as necessary. (BTW, I have a progressive DVD player connected via component - Video 5, a PS2 connected via component - Video 6, and an HD200 connected via DVI set to output 1080i.) But, I was still not satisfied with the set's gamma. So, I went into the Service Menu and set GAMM to 0 on all inputs (5-7) followed by running through Avia again. Oddly enough, all of my final User Menu settings achieved near perfect results in the Avia tests.

After going though all of the above I must now report that my picture is (IMO) the best it has ever looked. Not only did I think so, but my wife and kids all commented on how great the picture looked too. My wife even said, "I know that I've been getting on you about all the time you've been spending adjusting the TV, but now I see that it was worth it."

I guess the lesson that I learned here is that PQ is subjective and is truly left to be judged by the eye of the beholder. Sure, there may be standards put forth so that everyone has a common baseline from which to operate. And, it's great that TVs like this allow you tweak until the heart's content. But I found it very humorous that after spending countless hours adjusting this set hoping somehow to achieve near picture perfection, in my case the "best" picture was only a couple of simple steps away.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting down all the great work that UMR has done and the outstanding contributions made by so many others. (In fact, I want to thank each and every one of you.) I'm certain that these tweaks do get you closer to the "standard" and are a tremendous help in achieveing the optimal picture for a specific viewing environment. I just found that, in the end, close enough was good enough and that my personal preference may not be the "standard."

The real question now is how can I get back to my tweaking and not be caught by the wife? Or should I just go cold turkey? ;-)

Tweak on! :-)

ThinknDifferent,

Your results do not suprise me. Gamma is where the set is very wrong.

The other adjustments are pretty typical to how most sets are sold. I would guess most people must like it that way since that is how they sell them. I would set up my sets such that people liked them if I was making them.

Originally posted by ThinknDifferent
After following this post for two months now, and becoming a total tweak addict, I have the following feedback that you may or may not find of interest.

I had done so much tweaking over the past several weeks (though none beyond what UMR has covered in his tweak file) that I was beginning to forget how the picture originally looked. So, having recorded all of my original settings, I thought it might be fun to restore my set back to its factory condition just to see how far I had come. (It took about 5 minutes, having now become an "expert" in navigating through the Service Menu.) After doing so I immediately followed by running an Avia check on all Picture Modes (Vivid, Standard, Pro and, yes, even Mild) and made User Menu adjustments as necessary. (BTW, I have a progressive DVD player connected via component - Video 5, a PS2 connected via component - Video 6, and an HD200 connected via DVI set to output 1080i.) But, I was still not satisfied with the set's gamma. So, I went into the Service Menu and set GAMM to 0 on all inputs (5-7) followed by running through Avia again. Oddly enough, all of my final User Menu settings achieved near perfect results in the Avia tests.

After going though all of the above I must now report that my picture is (IMO) the best it has ever looked. Not only did I think so, but my wife and kids all commented on how great the picture looked too. My wife even said, "I know that I've been getting on you about all the time you've been spending adjusting the TV, but now I see that it was worth it."

I guess the lesson that I learned here is that PQ is subjective and is truly left to be judged by the eye of the beholder. Sure, there may be standards put forth so that everyone has a common baseline from which to operate. And, it's great that TVs like this allow you tweak until the heart's content. But I found it very humorous that after spending countless hours adjusting this set hoping somehow to achieve near picture perfection, in my case the "best" picture was only a couple of simple steps away.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not putting down all the great work that UMR has done and the outstanding contributions made by so many others. (In fact, I want to thank each and every one of you.) I'm certain that these tweaks do get you closer to the "standard" and are a tremendous help in achieveing the optimal picture for a specific viewing environment. I just found that, in the end, close enough was good enough and that my personal preference may not be the "standard."

The real question now is how can I get back to my tweaking and not be caught by the wife? Or should I just go cold turkey? ;-)

Tweak on! :-)

So, after all is said and done, merely setting the Gamma (GAMM) to "0" and then setting the Picture modes with AVIA (i.e., Picture, Brightness, Color, Hue, Sharpness) is ALL YOU NEEDED TO DO to get the best picture you've seen on this TV -- i.e., equal or better, in your opinon, to the zero-gamma PLUS-ALL-THE-OTHER-SETTINGS-CHANGES (red, blue, green driver, etc., changes) that you had done to arrive before at "the perfect picture"?

UMR,

Agreed. Thanks again for sharing all of your knowledge on this set. I'll continue to read this post with great interest and anticipation.

eweiss,


So, after all is said and done, merely setting the Gamma (GAMM) to "0" and then setting the Picture modes with AVIA (i.e., Picture, Brightness, Color, Hue, Sharpness) is ALL YOU NEEDED TO DO to get the best picture you've seen on this TV -- i.e., equal or better, in your opinon, to the zero-gamma PLUS-ALL-THE-OTHER-SETTINGS-CHANGES (red, blue, green driver, etc., changes) that you had done to arrive before at "the perfect picture"?


IMO it's too close to tell. Again, while I'm certain that making the other adjustments do get you closer to the "standard," I'm not certain that the resulting picture is the one that I prefer.

I've decided to leave my set as is for a few days or so before I make a decision whether or not to implement any further tweaks. As I mentioned earlier the Avia tests currently show my set nearly dead on, so I'm not certain what I would try and improve anyway.

BTW, I'm very serious. ;-)

Originally posted by ThinknDifferent
UMR,

Agreed. Thanks again for sharing all of your knowledge on this set. I'll continue to read this post with great interest and anticipation.

eweiss,



IMO it's too close to tell. Again, while I'm certain that making the other adjustments do get you closer to the "standard," I'm not certain that the resulting picture is the one that I prefer.

I've decided to leave my set as is for a few days or so before I make a decision whether or not to implement any further tweaks. As I mentioned earlier the Avia tests currently show my set nearly dead on, so I'm not certain what I would try and improve anyway.

BTW, I'm very serious. ;-)

I reset my TV to the factory/Service Manual settings in preparation for the swap that will probably be sometime next week now, and merely used Sound&Vision Home Theater Tune-Up ("baby Avia") to set picture, brightness, color, hue and sharpness for Vivid, Standard, Pro, and Mild (except that for color and hue, I use the RGBS SM setting to turn on the blue-only panel, and adjust with that, rather than the blue filter).

So, last night I decided to go in and set GAMM to "0" on all inputs I use (Video 1-4 and Video 5-6 480i) and then reset the user menu picture settings for Vivid, Standard, Pro, and Mild with Sound&Vision again (again using the RGBS to turn on the blue panel).

Now my TV blacks and contrast look too black and contrasty to me. I didn't adjust BLK, as umr says to do when adjusting GAMM. Should I do both GAMM and BLK to see if that's sufficient for 95% of what people need to do, per your experience?

Hi All,

I set my GAMM down to 0 again (from 6), and it is definately a better picture -- less washed out. My brightness is a little more than 30% though -- probably closer to 40% after I have done some calibration.

I haven't attempted messing with greyscale yet though it sounds a little tricky. But anyway, I just finished watching Back to the Future. During the dark scenes -- it actually looked decent! Either the tweaks are helping a lot, or I am just getting used to the set now. Things just look awesome. I think every time i turn it on, I am sure I made the right decision in getting it.

I would even go so far as to say I prefer the GWII + my sound system rig over any but the best movie theaters!

Umr,

I have been trying to tweak video 7 (feeding 720p through my pc). When I do the AVIA test pattern for brightness, it comes out to be too high. When I do the test, the value I am getting for brightness is almost zero percent. The same AVIA test pattern on video 5 (480i) is about 40% but it seems to be very low. I was watching the Godfather (opening scene) when the guy is telling to make justice to the Godfather for her daughter. I could hardly see the door knobs behind him (too dark). After increasing the brightness, I was able to see it but according to AVIA this is too high. What I am doing wrong? Any suggestions? Gamma is set zero in both inputs...

Originally posted by motjes2
Umr,

I have been trying to tweak video 7 (feeding 720p through my pc). When I do the AVIA test pattern for brightness, it comes out to be too high. When I do the test, the value I am getting for brightness is almost zero percent. The same AVIA test pattern on video 5 (480i) is about 40% but it seems to be very low. I was watching the Godfather (opening scene) when the guy is telling to make justice to the Godfather for her daughter. I could hardly see the door knobs behind him (too dark). After increasing the brightness, I was able to see it but according to AVIA this is too high. What I am doing wrong? Any suggestions? Gamma is set zero in both inputs...

I have not looked at that scene, but I'll take a guess at what may be going on. The first is that HTPC's have many settings that you can set. It may and probably does have a way to adjust picture, brightness and gamma internally. These could be causing you problems. One of the problems I would have with a HTPC is trying to get it setup RIGHT. I don't know how you can know it is correct. This is one of the reasons I chose not to go this route.

You may also have unrealistic expectations. Low contrast ratio does make it difficult to see subtle changes in illumination at low levels. It is unclear to me from your post whether 480i from a DVD player looks bad along with DVI from the HTPC or only the DVI input.

You may also need to adjust UBOG and UPOG for Video 7.

I just received my XP30 a few days early. I'll try and post some pictures of how it compares to my DVP-S7000 on this set later today.

UMR,

Thanks for your prompt response.

To the naked eye DVI looks fine but the AVIA test pattern to test black levels says otherwise. I have to look to see if there are other parameters related to the HTPC that is affecting the test.

In reference to to 480i DVD (video 5). AVIA sets the black levels at about 40% but in order to see more details like the one I was describing before I have to set the black level to 50% which AVIA again says that this is too high.

Can you tell me the title of some DVD's that you own that will be good for testing black levels. This way I can compare with you to see if you are seeing the same thing?

UMR,

You are right. I found the brightness parameter that was throwing off the AVIA test pattern on video 7. Thanks.


I still do not know what is happening with 480i and the black level?

Originally posted by motjes2
UMR,

...Can you tell me the title of some DVD's that you own that will be good for testing black levels. This way I can compare with you to see if you are seeing the same thing?

I have LOTR, AOTC, The Godfather, Phantom Menace.

Does anybody can post here a working link to download the GW II Service Manual ?
The link from page 15 from this thread doesn't work.

Thanks.

It works for me. You need adobe acrobat on your machine.

I can open the file but I can't save it on my PC. It will give an error all the time I am trying to save it.

I saved the GW I Service Manual without problems

I tried saving them too. It had only downloded up to page 7 though. What I ended up doing is viewing every page. Then I was able to save the whole file. It sucks & takes awhile but it worked.

You should be able to do a right click on the link and do a "save file as" or something of the like. You can try this, and then load it up from your PC. I have the full version of Adobe Acrobat (not just the reader), so I don't get the problem with only loading "x" number of pages at a time.

That works too, but I thought I would scan through it by loding every page. I didn't take any longer. It's a 36mb file. It only downlodes at 40kb/sec though. About 14 minutes.

UMR,

I have done the following. Completed all the tweaks on video 3 & Video 5. My video 3 is a direct composite connection from my Dish 721 to the GWII.

Then I have s-video connection from my dish 721 to my panasonic hs2 dvd recorder. The hs2 is connected to the GWII through two connections. One is through the component output to video 5 and the other is through s-video out on the panasonic hs2 to video 2.

(I have abandoned video 1 for the time being)

So, I have three different dish connections and comparing the PQ to all of them I will rank them in the following order.

Component (best)
Composite (good)
s-video (ok)

As you told me before it looks like the interlacing of the hs2 is providing a better PQ than the composite or the s-video (the s-video does not get the benefit of getting 480p since component is the only one output that will get upscaled/interlaced by the hs2). With the tweaks through video 5, I could watch any program from dish network normal mode and get no artifacts. I was watching college basketball on ESPN today and I was able to confirm it. I can only say that the PQ looks very sharp and with a lot of details. I could not imagine that it was going to look so good.

Any way, you may assume that it is the interlacing of the hs2 that is producing the better pq but I also tested this theory. I reversed back to my originals setting; the pq was still good but not as good as now. I think the combination of the interlacing of the hs2 plus the tweaks are making the PQ look better. This might be debatable but I wonder how the GWII would do if it had an excellent standalone interlacer. I would love to try that. I know you spoke about the ultrascan if I am not mistaken but right now it is very expensive for my pocket.

eweiss,


Now my TV blacks and contrast look too black and contrasty to me. I didn't adjust BLK, as umr says to do when adjusting GAMM. Should I do both GAMM and BLK to see if that's sufficient for 95% of what people need to do, per your experience?


Yes. I have to agree with you. After spending some time now with the set back in its original state, if I were to make any further adjustments they would be to blacks and contrast. However, to answer your question about the BLK setting, my set's BLK defaults for Video Inputs 5-7 were also UMR's recommended setting of "0." So, I may either go back to Avia and play with the set's Picture and Brightness settings or go back to the Service Menu and play with the UPOG and UBOG settings for each input until I achieve "better" results.

If you don't mind, please share what you decide to do and your results. I'll continue to do the same.

:-)

Okay, for several years I have been told that S-Video is better than composite. Now, I am hearing that the reverse is true. I will try this and see if I can tell the difference, but can anyone explain this to me?

Yes, someone said "composite" when the meant "component"

DVI is best, RGB is second, component (YPrPb) is a very close third, S-Video (Y/C) is a pretty close fourth, composite is a very distant fifth, and RF isn't even worth your time.

Actually composite can be better it depends on the device. My Dish 501 is better on composite than S-Video and it does not have component.

That's what I thought you said, but this is so "against the grain."
By the way, I have now incorporated most of your tweaks, but I have not used Avia yet to do my own calibrations because I just haven't spent the time to figure out just how to do that and which images would be best, etc. My picture is improved, but my DirecTiVo still has a lot of jaggies. I will try the composite cable instead. I will then try the tweaks on my DVD input, but T2 and LOTR are already really impressive as is.

I hooked up a Panasonic DVD-XP30 tonight and compared it to my Sony DVP-S7000.

The following are my observations:

DVD-XP30:

Positives:
Excellent resolution for both chroma and luma.
Excellent deinterlacing performance.
Bypasses DRC deinterlacing yielding a sharper picture.
0 IRE blacks slightly improved details in low level blacks.

Negatives:
Colors are much less accurate than signal generator.
Blue Y/C delay about -0.07 on Avia.
Required image revision to be 2 instead of auto.


DVP-S7000

Positives:
Excellent color accuracy compared to signal generator.
Y/C delay spot on.

Negatives:
Chroma and luma resolution is significantly less than XP-30.
DRC deinterlacing can add noise to the signal.
Low level blacks slightly worse.

Summary

The XP30 is an excellent player that has a much sharper image than the 7000. The deinterlacing of the Sony seems to be clouding the image slightly on fine details. Using the XP30 to calibrate the color decoder will not result in values that can be used for other devices because it differs significantly from SMPTE.

The image with the Panasonic is so sharp at times it is hard to believe it is DVD quality.

Edit: Removed comment about not switching modes on anamorphic movies. Now it is doing it right. I guess it needed to be powered down after changing the setup. 2/8/03

Resolution comparison for chroma and luma.

Here is the Y/C delay error exhibited on the blue channel for the XP30.

Originally posted by umr
The image with the Panasonic is so sharp at times it is hard to believe it is DVD quality.

Hi UMR,

Just watched Monsters Inc today on the Panasonic CP72 with the tweaks on the GWII. I completely concur with your statement here. I was just amazed at the kind of quality that can come off of a DVD source. All I can say is, if that is just DVD Quality -- how much better can HDTV look?

Of course I have seen HDTV and it does look better if the source material is good :) But I am certain I have seen HDTV material that did NOT look as good as Monsters Inc off of DVD.

James

Originally posted by umr

TV switches to Full mode automatically with an anamorphic movie.



Your's does this automatically? My 60XBR800 does not automatically switch to full mode with an anamorphic movie (component input from DVD connected to Video 5). I've tried different settings in the screen category in the user menu. How do I do this?

Originally posted by jbaraga
...My 60XBR800 does not automatically switch to full mode with an anamorphic movie (component input from DVD connected to Video 5).....How do I do this?

I think it only works in 480i mode.:(

Edit: Not true. This now works on the XP30.

Originally posted by motjes2
UMR,

....Any way, you may assume that it is the interlacing of the hs2 that is producing the better pq but I also tested this theory. I reversed back to my originals setting; the pq was still good but not as good as now. I think the combination of the interlacing of the hs2 plus the tweaks are making the PQ look better. This might be debatable but I wonder how the GWII would do if it had an excellent standalone interlacer. I would love to try that. I know you spoke about the ultrascan if I am not mistaken but right now it is very expensive for my pocket.

I have a hard time justifying an iScan Ultra when the only thing I would use it for is Dish and the 921 is probably 12 months or less away. The 921 should be superior to an external deinterlacer if Dish does a good job with the product.

My DVD player outputs only at 480i (Samsung V1000 DVD/VCR combo). Still no auto switching to full with anamorphic DVD's.

Originally posted by jbaraga
My DVD player outputs only at 480i (Samsung V1000 DVD/VCR combo). Still no auto switching to full with anamorphic DVD's.

The player must output a special flag to tell the TV to switch. I guess your player does not support this. The TV must be in normal mode for this to work if it has the flag.

Bummer.

Thanks for a recent post by Cheezmo to help clarify appropriate black level settings on a Panasonic DVD (rp-82) for Avia adjustments. Last week, following suggestions on this thread, I set black level to "lighter" for calibration. Unfortunately, I did not realize that this setting only applied in interlaced mode. Thus, when I adjusted in progressive mode with the lighter black level setting, I was pushed to black and white level settings that were inconsistent with everything umr had suggested (and not nearly as good a picture since I was using 0 IRE by mistake). Based on Cheezmo's comment, I recalibrated with interlaced output and settings make sense and picture looks much better. As a rookie, should I have known this before reading Cheezmo's post, or is there a bit of know-how to all this? Thanks.

I am new to this forum and let me tell you it is great to find a group of people so enthusiastic about this product/process. I am not an expert by any means, but what I would consider a knowledgable user. I went ahead and instituted umr's tweaks to my GWII and of course notice a tremendous difference in PQ. The process has left me with some questions however, which I hope some of you will take the time to answer.

1) Is there a source you can refer me to or a simple explanation of overscan? I have not changed this or any of the H/V alignment settings. To my eye the screen seems well enough centered, but if adjusting overscan will render more picture detail I of course want to try it.

2) I am switching two component video sources through my receiver (Time Warner Cable in NYC at 1080I and Sony DVPNS999ES DVD player at 480P), with a third (PS2 @ 480I) going directly into the TV. I believe the receiver to be high quality (Sony STRDA4ES). Is this negatively affecting the component video signals to the point that you would recommend against it? I do not mind switching the PS2 to S-video if it makes sense to do so.

3) After using instituting the tweaks using the values umr stated in the PDF (I know this is not the intention but I have neither the skill nor patience to deduce the more advanced ones myself), all images look much improved. Like many others I am seeing the biggest jumps in TiVo and overly MPEG-compressed SD cable channels. The image on the PBS HDTV demo channel looks much better as well. As far as DVDs go, bright scenes look spectacular, but dark scenes seem overly dark. What I am trying to figure out is if I am just used to the picture as set by the factory and will get used to the blacker tuned image. I set the gamma settings precisely how you have. (I guess this one is not so much a question as a solicitation of opinion).

4) Has anyone seen a similar thread or set of tweaks anywhere for the DVPNS999ES DVD player? I love this machine for its audio and video performance so far, but I am sure there are many subtle enhancements similar to the ones for the GWII that would benefit the PQ there as well. If not then umr do you think I can convince you to buy one of these players?

Thanks everyone for your time and efforts putting this stuff together. I know it is a labor of love but you have really made things easier for people like me!

Is there a source you can refer me to or a simple explanation of overscan

I don't have a good link, but it is not too hard. Overscan is how much of the available image you are not seeing. Usually expressed as a percentage of the area.

You need a test pattern like that found on Avia to do this adjustment properly.

I am switching two component video sources through my receiver (Time Warner Cable in NYC at 1080I and Sony DVPNS999ES DVD player at 480P), with a third (PS2 @ 480I) going directly into the TV. I believe the receiver to be high quality (Sony STRDA4ES). Is this negatively affecting the component video signals to the point that you would recommend against it?

I would route the HD signal straight to the TV and use the receiver to switch the 480p and 480i signals. The odds of the receiver doing the lower resolution signals well is better than the HD. I would also compare how the 480p works through the receiver on images like Avia's 200 TVL to see if it is hurting the signal, but you are free to do what you want.

The image on the PBS HDTV demo channel looks much better as well. As far as DVDs go, bright scenes look spectacular, but dark scenes seem overly dark.

You may not have picture and brightness properly calibrated. You need to use something like THX Optimizer to do this correctly.

Has anyone seen a similar thread or set of tweaks anywhere for the DVPNS999ES DVD player?

Every device even of the same model may need different settings to correctly display the image. It sounds like you are just copying my settings for all things. This is not the best way to go. You really need to spend a little time and calibrate things like picture, brightness, color, hue, sharpness... Taking the settings from my set to yours is not going to be correct. The tweak file does list some parameters that do not require calibration, but those that do must be properly adjusted or your results will not be correct.

Originally posted by umr
Every device even of the same model may need different settings to correctly display the image. It sounds like you are just copying my settings for all things. This is not the best way to go. You really need to spend a little time and calibrate things like picture, brightness, color, hue, sharpness... Taking the settings from my set to yours is not going to be correct. The tweak file does list some parameters that do not require calibration, but those that do must be properly adjusted or your results will not be correct.
That being said, I have the AVIA Guide to Home Theater DVD and can adjust picture/brightness/color/hue/sharpness comfortably. As far as the gamma, white balance and other more advanced color settings do you think I am better off copying your settings or leaving them at the factory defaults?

I have the AVIA Guide to Home Theater DVD and can adjust picture/brightness/color/hue/sharpness comfortably. As far as the gamma, white balance and other more advanced color settings do you think I am better off copying your settings or leaving them at the factory defaults?

I would suggest you use test images for everything you can instead of just copying the numbers from my tweaks. You could try my settings versus the factory ones if you want to, but they might not be better.

The settings you do not need to calibrate would include DRC Reality, DRC Clarity, OSP, PKNG, GAMM, VGAM, MHLY, MVLY, MHYL, BLK, and the Color Temperature Setting.

Hello all,

I have a quick question for the readers. I recently completed doing some tweaks on my GWII (60") and had carefully written down all of the original default settings. However, our cleaning lady thought it was a piece of scrap paper and tossed it out.

Does anyone happen to have the default GWII settings down in a file or some other form that would be easy to post or email? I would be eternally grateful. Thanks for your time, and again, hats off to umr. Top notch work!

Rob

The service manual posted earlier in this thread seems to have the initial settings for just about everything.

Originally posted by SowKnee
The service manual posted earlier in this thread seems to have the initial settings for just about everything.

The settings are listed, but they are not always what is in the set from the factory.

Originally posted by umr
The settings are listed, but they are not always what is in the set from the factory.

Yes, someone from Sony told me that each set has slightly different setting depending on the final adjustment at the factory. However, the UMR tweak settings are probably a good place to start now anyway...and then personal preferences, avia and ve test pattern adjustment etc. can take things to the next level!!!

I am attaching a PDF file with the original settings for my GWII. As stated above, the settings for your TV might me different. For settings where I didn't see a difference between the 480P and other source type inputs I left the others blank. For those where the initial setting was dependent on input type the initial values are listed. I converted this to PDF format for ease of viewing, but if anyone wants the original Excel spreadsheet let me know.

umr, all,

First of all I am a newbie (just got my 60 this past weekend), and did not get the opportunity to apply the tweaks yet. But I did 'practice' going into the SM, so I'm probably going to apply the tweaks tonight. I do have a few questions if anyone can help.

2 questions:
1. I noticed the the GW2 always defaults to Normal mode when the set is turned on. Is there a way to set it to Pro mode so that I don't have to always change the mode of the TV once I turn it on?

2. I assume the GW2 auto detects the resolution of the inputs and then upconverts it, is that true? Is there any way you can tell what input signal the set is receiving? For example, how can I tell if the set is receiving my 480p from the DVD player and not 480i?

Originally posted by garien
1. I noticed the the GW2 always defaults to Normal mode when the set is turned on. Is there a way to set it to Pro mode so that I don't have to always change the mode of the TV once I turn it on?
Mine does not reset to the "normal" mode. It stays on the last setting it was on before being powered down.

Originally posted by garien
Is there any way you can tell what input signal the set is receiving? For example, how can I tell if the set is receiving my 480p from the DVD player and not 480i?
In service mode using component inputs the upper right corner of the screen tells you what type of signal is being fed into the inputs.

I noticed the the GW2 always defaults to Normal mode when the set is turned on. Is there a way to set it to Pro mode so that I don't have to always change the mode of the TV once I turn it on?

Normal and Pro are two different things.

Normal is the Wide mode I usually use. The set will switch to 16:9 or 4:3 in this mode if the device connected tells it to.

Pro is a Picture mode. My set never leaves Pro unless I tell it to.

Thanks guys.... I'm probably getting them confused because I am new to the set.
When I turn on the set, it displays Normal in green lettering on the bottom left hand corner. That must be the Wide mode setting.
I guess I was confusing it with the Picture mode because there is a Normal setting in the Picture mode as well.
Please let me know if my conclusion is wrong. Thanks.

I guess I was confusing it with the Picture mode because there is a Normal setting in the Picture mode as well.

I believe the Picture modes are Vivid, Standard, Pro and Mild.

umr,
You are right as usual. :)
Thanks.

Originally posted by garien


1. I noticed the the GW2 always defaults to Normal mode when the set is turned on. Is there a way to set it to Pro mode so that I don't have to always change the mode of the TV once I turn it on?



What you are talking about is adjusted under "Screen" in the user adjustmentes. If you turn 4:3 defalt off then it will stay at what ever wide mode it's on when turned off.

Hey folks, FWIW I hooked up my xbox with component cables. On 480i it was the same as svideo (I also tried composite, and it was pretty much the same)-- muddy text. 480p is MUCH better. The small text is just perfect now. No sharpness issues what so ever.

I wonder if there is something about the xbox that is hard to deinterlace, of if the deinterlacer of the GWII just isn't that great.

Originally posted by jephjeph
Hey folks, FWIW I hooked up my xbox with component cables. On 480i it was the same as svideo (I also tried composite, and it was pretty much the same)-- muddy text. 480p is MUCH better. The small text is just perfect now. No sharpness issues what so ever.

I wonder if there is something about the xbox that is hard to deinterlace, of if the deinterlacer of the GWII just isn't that great.

I have done some testing on this with my XP30 and Sony DVP-S7000 and both of these begin rolling off the response at about 4 Mhz on luma and 2 Mhz on chroma with 480i. The XP30_7000 Res.jpg attachment above shows the 7000 on 480i and the XP30 on 480p.

I have also noticed that small text appears to be a challange for DRC.

I would also suggest a few things you might consider.

1) The Xbox is not putting out the best signal in 480i.

2) You have not set Reality 1 and Clarity 100 on DRC.

3) You have not implemented the PIC-BOOST or MID5 adjustments to the service menu. I saw some difference from these settings with the clarity of small text.

Am I assuming correctly that 480p, 480i, and 1080i are from the dvd player? I have an older Sony non-progressive scan player. Are the service menu tweaks not applicable for me? How do you change the scan rate from the xbox?

thanks,
Stosh

Originally posted by stosh
Am I assuming correctly that 480p, 480i, and 1080i are from the dvd player? I have an older Sony non-progressive scan player. Are the service menu tweaks not applicable for me? How do you change the scan rate from the xbox?

thanks,
Stosh

1080i is not going to be from a DVD player.

I did all of these tweaks with an older Sony DVP-S7000 which is a non-progressive player so I am sure they would apply.

I don't know a thing about Xbox.

Where does the 480 1080 scan rate originate from and how do you view the current rate? Also in the sm, there are several numbers that have black backgrounds but only one value that seems to be editable. Is this the only value that you can edit and is that the value you change according to the tweak settings?

thanks!

Has anybody come up with the discrete IR codes for the service menu items?? How great it would be to adjust GAMM and others with a couple of keystrokes. I know this is highly unlikely....but hey, it would be great!!!

Originally posted by stosh
Where does the 480 1080 scan rate originate from and how do you view the current rate? Also in the sm, there are several numbers that have black backgrounds but only one value that seems to be editable. Is this the only value that you can edit and is that the value you change according to the tweak settings?

thanks!

The scan rate is a function of the device selected. You can see the current input from the service menu. It is displayed on most categories, but not all in the upper right corner. Page 4 of the GWXBR Tweaks file shows how the menu is laid out.

You really need to read the GWXBR Tweaks file carefully to understand what to change. I would also suggest you download the service manual which is on page 15 of this thread.

I believe you are looking at categories where you should not change anything. The first few categories do not display the input type and have a bunch of numbers at the bottom with black backgrounds. Do not change anything unless you know what it is.

Only the data value for each item is changeable.

1) The Xbox is not putting out the best signal in 480i.

2) You have not set Reality 1 and Clarity 100 on DRC.

3) You have not implemented the PIC-BOOST or MID5 adjustments to the service menu. I saw some difference from these settings with the clarity of small text.

1) possible
2) it was set to those settings
3) I did try those settings, but in particular MID5 didn't seem to help; OSP definitely did, however.

Another point of data is that with lower IRE stuff it looks ok, a great example is the "press start to begin" which fades from near black to 100% white and back. The ghosting gets worse as it gets brighter. I've also tried image revision to no avail. Anyhow, at $19.00 for the HD output pack, it's not worth messing with anymore (and I now have access to 720p, 1080i for the games that support them).

I guess I find it interesting that I've had nearly the same experience with both devices that do both 480i and 480p, my xbox and DVD player-- both were materially superior on 480p. Your tweaks do make 480i a lot better, but I just care about the results, not neccessarily how I got there.

Originally posted by jephjeph
...Another point of data is that with lower IRE stuff it looks ok, a great example is the "press start to begin" which fades from near black to 100% white and back. The ghosting gets worse as it gets brighter. I've also tried image revision to no avail. Anyhow, at $19.00 for the HD output pack, it's not worth messing with anymore (and I now have access to 720p, 1080i for the games that support them)...

You might try lowering sharpness, but I would assume you have already done that. Since you did not see anything with MID5 I would guess it might be the XBox. Changing MID5 was pretty obvious with high frequency test patterns from my 480i Sony DVD player.

Sounds like $19.00 well spent to me.