Im getting cable internet on Sat. I couldn't spend for the HD package though. Thats just too much $ for me.

Hopefully we get some decent OTA HD sometime. I am tired of messing with it too.

I had a Dish customer special and we're paying less than $70 for internet and cable which includes two dual tuner HD DVRs and the HD package as well as the HBO package and a bunch of other things too. We were paying about $20/mo just for cable internet. It was a one year special and we had to give them a copy of our most recent bill to prove we were with Dish and when this promotion runs out we'll shop Dish, Direct TV and anything else available. Hopefully by then we'll be able to get a few dozen channels OTA. A guy can dream, right?

Hi All,

I'm about to purchase a new HDTV but I'm waffling about getting one with or without the internal QAM tuner. I currently have the $13 basic (locals + 3 to 5 cable ch) package from Comcast in Fort Collins. Its a good deal since I get a $10 discount for having cable internet.

I'd like to find out if people in Fort Collins are getting the local channels in unencrypted HD using only the basic package or the standard package (not Digital Cable). I understand that you have to have a QAM tuner built in or a STB to receive them. I've heard that some in Loveland are receiving them but hadn't heard about FC. This would be awesome if Comcast transmits the local HD signals without having to pay for the bloated Digital packages.

I have tried calling Comcast about this but I wasn't really sure that I trusted the expertise of the person I talked to. Mostly they are focused on selling the digital packages and I'm not yet willing to pay for that.

I've read most of the posts in this thread and some guys have touched upon the subject free unencrypted QAM channels in Fort Collins but it seems like the topic was dropped after Comcast announced their HD for pay packages in December.

dtu21 you are correct in the Loveland that HD locals are in the clear (not encrypted) I have also heard that longmont is the same way so unless there is something really different with FC I don't see why they would not be that way. Best way to find out is to get a QAM reciver and just run the auto channel feature and see what you find.

So since HD service is available in Greeley now via comcast, could QAM possibly work there? I just have a reg (non QAM) OTA HD/Digital receiver and I suppose that won't work.

Yes you need a QAM receiver to work.

Thanks for the reply Colofan. I don't have a HDTV set yet so I won't be able to quickly check. I was hoping for some verification before I ponied up the extra money for a tv with a QAM tuner.

If anybody has actually seen in the clear channels in Fort Collins please let us know. I'm hoping to put in an order soon and would like to have the tuner built in if Comcast transmits the channels.

Also, can you rent the a STB with QAM tuner from Comcast without subscribing to the digital packages?

I'm surprised that a lot more people aren't going this route given how cheap it is. $13/month is definitely worth it for having an HD signal and not having to deal with a rotary antenna. And its only $3 (after $10 discount) if you subscribe to their cable internet service.

I've got the lowest level digital cable. With that the Denver HD locals are passed through unencrypted for your TV+QAM receiver to view.
When I used to have plain old analog service last year there was no problem receiving the Denver HD locals, but that was 8 months ago. What I read at that time was that if you had 'high speed internet' through Comcast then the filter was off and allowed the digital cable channels through. That's probably still true today.

Like rtray says, all the Denver local digitals they carry (2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 20, 31) are unencrypted QAM on Comcast in Fort Collins. However there is no law that requires Comcast to keep them unencrypted in the future, although the FCC recommends it.

I heard from a Comcast tech that a Tivo version of a HD DVR box is coming out soon, can anyone confirm?
I have never had Tivo but have heard good things about them.

A year or so ago, Comcast signed a deal with Tivo for Tivo to port their software to the
Comcast DVR platform. It should be wonderful - a real Tivo with full hardware support.
I haven't heard anything about this for awhile, but knew it would take awhile. I could
dig out the URL for the press release if folks are interested.

Rob T

I thought that I'd put an update for those that aren't familiar with getting Comcast Denver HD channels in Fort Collins. This seems to be the case for Longmont and Loveland too.

Comcast does transmit the Denver Local Digital channels "in the clear". This means that if you have a QAM tuner and a cable tv package, you can receive the Denver HD signals.

If your tv does not have a QAM tuner built in, you can rent the STB from Comcast for $5/month. I am currently renting the box and the channels are in the 652-658 range. The box does do a remapping, so TV's with internal QAM will have different channel numbers.

You do not have to subscribe to their HD package to receive the network channels, you can subscribe to any level of cable tv service. I have their lowest level basic analog. However, you will not receive ESPNHD, HBOHD, etc. Only the network channels that you receive over the air (if you are lucky enough to have signal strength).

For me the total price is <$20/month.

As long as we are a little OT with the Denver locals, tomorrow (WED) is the day that DirecTv is supposed to turn on the Denver locals in HD. You will need one of the new 5 LNB dishes and an H20 receiver.

Anyone call? I'm not giving up my Tivo without a decent alternative so don't wait for me.

Latest from D* is this fall for the DVR and no it will not be tivo.

Did you mean call Comcast or D*? D* has turned on the locals for Denver, but the new HD DVR to record them will not be available for awhile. It was supposed to be late summer, but now I've read October. Comcast has not rolled out any boxes with Tivo software. However, the Motorola 6412 III with the latest firmware has been very solid for me. The only problem is the small hard drive. It's the only way to record HD locals here, so I consider it to be more than a decent alternative.

Sorry. I meant call D*. I know the DVR isn't here. I was wondering if anyone has gotten an H20, the new dish and has gotten the locals through D*. I'm wondering how the picture quality is. In particular, how does it compare to Comcast or OTA? Of course, most of us don't get OTA except for WB, FOX, and CBS sometimes.

Sorry. I meant call D*. I know the DVR isn't here. I was wondering if anyone has gotten an H20, the new dish and has gotten the locals through D*. I'm wondering how the picture quality is. In particular, how does it compare to Comcast or OTA? Of course, most of us don't get OTA except for WB, FOX, and CBS sometimes.

There are some doing comparisons in the Denver OTA thread starting here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7913460&&#post7913460) .

It's been quiet for a while - thought I would post that I can now get 7 and 9 HD with atmospheric conditions are right (mostly night) with my attic antenna. Turns out I had a bad connector on my RG6 cable and caused the attenuation in the signal. I had always suspected the screw on connectors were not good - so I bought a crimping tool and did the connectors up professionally. The fact that the signal does not come in strong during the day will mean limited HD football on 9 during the day but the madden show Sunday night should be there (fingers crossed).

It also means I might be able to get the signal during the day if I mount the antenna on a mast at the top of the roof. Gaining another ten feet and 3-5db of signal currently lost in the shingles and also maybe even more gain due to better alignment vs the limited one I have with all the joists.

Reggie

NBC has the sunday night game so you should be okay for that game at least :)

NBC has the sunday night game so you should be okay for that game at least :)

Thanks - you are right on that - I just upgraded (sic) and got the HR-10-250 HD TiVo and find that it is not as sensitive as the Sony HD-200 I was using. I do not get 9.1 and 7.1 as easily now -sigh! I probably need to put the antenna on the roof with a rotor. Perhaps I will just wait till D* upgrades our receivers to MPEG4 ones.

Reggie

Hi all,

I finally decided to see how my Dish 811 worked with an OTA antenna. I live in NE FC with a small hill to the south. I wasn't sure it would work at all.

I got a Radio Shack UHF antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&pg=1&y=10&x=10&s=A-StorePrice-RSK&parentPage=family) and aimed it south. To my amazement, the 811 found 7 channels! But it's not quite as good as it sounded at first.

The channels I get are 2-01 (KWGN, WB), 2-02 (TUBE), 12-01 / 12-02 / 12-03 (KBDI), 15 (? some Spanish-language station), 22 (KFCT, FOX), 25 (KDEN, another Spanish station), and 31 (KDVR, FOX). So I have the WB, FOX on 2 stations, and KBDI. That's a totally different set than antennaweb.org said I'd get, but that's what I have. There are a few others with a 40-50% strength that might work if I improve my antenna location.

I was hoping for NFL football. Looking at nfl.com, it appears the games are all over the place, on CBS, NBC, FOX, and ESPN. All I have is FOX.

For my initial experiment I just stuck the antenna on the side of the house at eye-level. I suspect I could do a lot better with rooftop mounting, and I might be able to do that. (Have to deal with wife and neighbors...) I was surprised I didn't get KKTU (which apparently broadcasts from Horsetooth Mountain or thereabouts?) but it's on the other side of the house. That might be the problem with the Cheyenne stations too, or it might be that the antenna is too directional for those. (Not likely since it receives KFCT at nearly 90deg off-axis!)

Any suggestions on that?

But I have to resolve another problem before I try hanging it on the roof. I cancelled my Dish HD subscription last spring because I didn't think the basic HD was worth paying for, and didn't want to pay another $20/mo for a better subscription. Since Dish moved to the MPEG-4 receivers, they don't even want my 811 back. So I have a free receiver -- IF I can get the thing to work.

It doesn't seem to be very happy that it can't call back to the mothership. I had it working for a while (with intermittent "oh no we lost signal to the satellite" panic messages), but then I made the mistake of looking through the channel guide and trying to connect to a satellite station. Boom, the thing seems hosed now. It periodically flashes an info screen but I can't get it to respond to channel changes or generally even a MENU key.

Since it seemed to be hung, I used the procedure shown on the Dish 811 site (press Select, Cancel, View TV, Power twice, then unplug for 15 secs). That seems to have woken it up, but now if I select MENU 6-1-5 to set up local channels, it says "Data not available" !!?!?

Dish's Tech Portal (http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departmental_content/techportal/content/tech/techmischdtvfaq.shtml) says no subscription is required to use the 811 for OTA. The 811 is still hooked up to the dish, but not to an HD subscription.

So what does it take to use an 811 for OTA without an HD subscription?
Gary

So what does it take to use an 811 for OTA without an HD subscription?
Hi Gary -

My suggestion would be to perform the following steps:

First off, make sure the phone line is NOT plugged into the 811
Power down the 811 *completely* (versus to "playing possum" mode). You may have to press and hold the power button to accomplish this...
Remove the "sim card" from the unit
Disconnect the antenna and satellite feed coaxes from the back of the unit
Unplug the power cord from the unit
Dump the thing in the trash and buy an Accurian on eBay for ~ $100 :D

Seriously, the Accurian is much better than most DTV tuners at pulling in the Denver stations from Fort Fun (probably due to improved multipath rejection).

I have two antennae in the attic: a highly directional one pointed south, and a basic one pointed north (to get the Cheyenne stations). I've tried five different DTV tuners with the same feeds from those antennae:

A WinTV-D card for my PC couldn't get squat.
The OTA section of a neighbor's satellite box could receive KDVR (Fox 31), KBDI (PBS 12), or KGWN (Cheyenne CBS 5), but NOT AT THE SAME ANTENNA POSITION -- had to rotate to switch between them.
My Samsung SIR-T151 could pick up KWGN (WB 2), KBDI (PBS 12), and KDVR (Fox 31) (plus some shopping and Spanish channels) from a single position of the south-facing antenna, and KGWN (CBS 5) if I switched to the north-facing one.
My Zenith C32V23 HDTV picks up the same stations as the Samsung, and can sometimes get KUSA (NBC 9) if conditions are just right.
My new Accurian consistently gets KWGN (WB 2), KGWN (CBS 5), KMGH (ABC 7), KUSA (NBC 9), KBDI (PBS 12), and KDVR (FOX 31) (plus some shopping and Spanish channels), all from a single position of the south-facing antenna. That's pretty amazing, since 5 is behind my antenna, and 7 and 9 are broadcasting at an ERP only slightly higher than my son's walkie-talkies :( .

At first, I didn't believe all the hype about the Accurian; but now that I've tried it myself, I'm a believer...

Dump the thing in the trash and buy an Accurian on eBay for ~ $100 :DOh thanks, you're a big help! :)

Well, I'd say my 811 did remarkably well, considering the antenna was at ground level behind some trees and a hilltop. It got all those stations from a single roughly-south-facing position. I'm sure I'd get more if I put it on the roof, though maybe 7 and 9 are asking too much even then.

If I can't resolve the 811 problems, I'll keep the Accurian in mind. It would be nicer, though, if I could do it for free! At least until we see how much we actually watch it.

Gary

Hi all,

I finally decided to see how my Dish 811 worked with an OTA antenna. I live in NE FC with a small hill to the south. I wasn't sure it would work at all.

I got a Radio Shack UHF antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&pg=1&y=10&x=10&s=A-StorePrice-RSK&parentPage=family) and aimed it south. To my amazement, the 811 found 7 channels! But it's not quite as good as it sounded at first.

The channels I get are 2-01 (KWGN, WB), 2-02 (TUBE), 12-01 / 12-02 / 12-03 (KBDI), 15 (? some Spanish-language station), 22 (KFCT, FOX), 25 (KDEN, another Spanish station), and 31 (KDVR, FOX). So I have the WB, FOX on 2 stations, and KBDI. That's a totally different set than antennaweb.org said I'd get, but that's what I have. There are a few others with a 40-50% strength that might work if I improve my antenna location.

I was hoping for NFL football. Looking at nfl.com, it appears the games are all over the place, on CBS, NBC, FOX, and ESPN. All I have is FOX.

For my initial experiment I just stuck the antenna on the side of the house at eye-level. I suspect I could do a lot better with rooftop mounting, and I might be able to do that. (Have to deal with wife and neighbors...) I was surprised I didn't get KKTU (which apparently broadcasts from Horsetooth Mountain or thereabouts?) but it's on the other side of the house. That might be the problem with the Cheyenne stations too, or it might be that the antenna is too directional for those. (Not likely since it receives KFCT at nearly 90deg off-axis!)

Any suggestions on that?

But I have to resolve another problem before I try hanging it on the roof. I cancelled my Dish HD subscription last spring because I didn't think the basic HD was worth paying for, and didn't want to pay another $20/mo for a better subscription. Since Dish moved to the MPEG-4 receivers, they don't even want my 811 back. So I have a free receiver -- IF I can get the thing to work.

It doesn't seem to be very happy that it can't call back to the mothership. I had it working for a while (with intermittent "oh no we lost signal to the satellite" panic messages), but then I made the mistake of looking through the channel guide and trying to connect to a satellite station. Boom, the thing seems hosed now. It periodically flashes an info screen but I can't get it to respond to channel changes or generally even a MENU key.

Since it seemed to be hung, I used the procedure shown on the Dish 811 site (press Select, Cancel, View TV, Power twice, then unplug for 15 secs). That seems to have woken it up, but now if I select MENU 6-1-5 to set up local channels, it says "Data not available" !!?!?

Dish's Tech Portal (http://tech.dishnetwork.com/departmental_content/techportal/content/tech/techmischdtvfaq.shtml) says no subscription is required to use the 811 for OTA. The 811 is still hooked up to the dish, but not to an HD subscription.

So what does it take to use an 811 for OTA without an HD subscription?
Gary
Gary,

You may be able to get 7 and 9 if you mount the antenna on the roof. That will cost you to have done and there is no guarantee. I can't remember if you have a upstair or not at your house - if yes - try aiming the antenna from a window.

Here is the website for the 811: http://www.dbstalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=87

Reggie

Wouldn't cost me money -- I can climb on the roof easily enough. But it may not be worth the hassles from our neighbors (who still insist the covenants can block antennas, FCC bedammed) or my wife (who thinks an antenna looks "trailer-trash"). Turns out I can get HD locals on Dish for only $6/mo, without Dish's programming. But then I'd have to buy a new MPEG4 receiver for $99 and commit to 18 months. Or maybe we'll switch over to Qwest's phone/cell/internet/sat package and switch to DirecTV! I'll figger somethin' out...

I did get the 811 working, with some help from the guys over at DBStalk. Had to reinitialize the switch matrix or somethin' like that.

I'm seeing all these commercials about the consolidated tower on Lookout Mountain and how it will make HD OTA better for the front range. I want to sign the petition but first wanted to post here and make sure that was the side we were all supporting or if it was the dark side trying to make it seem like their side was better for all of us when it really isn't.

I'm seeing all these commercials about the consolidated tower on Lookout Mountain and how it will make HD OTA better for the front range. I want to sign the petition but first wanted to post here and make sure that was the side we were all supporting or if it was the dark side trying to make it seem like their side was better for all of us when it really isn't.

I want all the local channels in over-the-air HD delivered to Northern Colorado. I signed. These residents that have held up the building of a new tower for years are like people who build their house next to an airport and then complain about the noise from the airplanes.

I want all the local channels in over-the-air HD delivered to Northern Colorado. I signed. These residents that have held up the building of a new tower for years are like people who build their house next to an airport and then complain about the noise from the airplanes.

Good. I've supported the cause for years now but, like I said, just wanted to make sure I wasn't supporting the wrong side unknowingly due to the way politicians can twist things to seem like it's what you intended to vote for.

Wouldn't cost me money -- I can climb on the roof easily enough. But it may not be worth the hassles from our neighbors (who still insist the covenants can block antennas, FCC bedammed) or my wife (who thinks an antenna looks "trailer-trash"). Turns out I can get HD locals on Dish for only $6/mo, without Dish's programming. But then I'd have to buy a new MPEG4 receiver for $99 and commit to 18 months. Or maybe we'll switch over to Qwest's phone/cell/internet/sat package and switch to DirecTV! I'll figger somethin' out...

I did get the 811 working, with some help from the guys over at DBStalk. Had to reinitialize the switch matrix or somethin' like that.
We did the qwest thing - Already had D* and gave up Comcast high speed. - It's a little slower but not much that it matters unless you downloading lots of data. I got a HD - TiVo - but you will need to wait for the new HD DVR to come out before you sign up if you want the local HDs.

If your roof is available - you should climb out there and see what channels you can get. Need two people - one to hold the antenna and one to watch the tv.

Reggie

Hi Gary -

My new Accurian consistently gets KWGN (WB 2), KGWN (CBS 5), KMGH (ABC 7), KUSA (NBC 9), KBDI (PBS 12), and KDVR (FOX 31) (plus some shopping and Spanish channels), all from a single position of the south-facing antenna. That's pretty amazing, since 5 is behind my antenna, and 7 and 9 are broadcasting at an ERP only slightly higher than my son's walkie-talkies :( .
[/list]
At first, I didn't believe all the hype about the Accurian; but now that I've tried it myself, I'm a believer...

How far Northeast are you? I'm clear up in Laporte. How clearly are all those stations coming in?

How far Northeast are you? I'm clear up in Laporte.I'm east of I-25 off the Windsor exit.

How clearly are all those stations coming in?Well, it's digital TV, so the picture's very clear ;) . Assuming you're asking about reliability...

Since my previous post, I've noticed that a few of the stations do occasionally get into "intermittent breakup" mode (indicating marginal reception). In terms of estimated percentage of the time I receive them withOUT breakups:

WB 2 = 100%
CBS 5 = 100% (if using north facing antenna) / 85% (if using south facing antenna)
ABC 7 = 90%
NBC 9 = 90%
PBS 12 = 100%
FOX 31 = 110% (seems to be the strongest station -- I've *never* seen it break up, even with my old tuners)

As a result, I only count on 2, 12, and 31 for unattended ReplayTV recordings; I use the analog feeds for 4/5, 7, and 9.

Hi folks,

I'm new to the area, and trying to figure out if/what type of OTA HD I can receive in Fort Collins. I read through some of the Denver thread, and things look pretty bleak... Hard to believe that a major metro area like Denver would have such a bad HD situation. :(

I live in the northwest part of town, near Taft Hill and Vine. Any recommendations for antennas to try? At my old house in a far-off land, I had a Channelmaster 4221 with a 7777 pre-amp that worked great. Got good signal from over 70 miles away from the tower. Unfortunately, it had to stay with my old house.

Will something like that work, or does everyone around here use yagi-type antennas with a rotator?

I bought a silver sensor the other day just to see what I could pick up from the house. (Before my 'net access was hooked-up). From my garden level basement, I get Fox on channel 21.3 quite well. Can also pick up a couple of analog stations from Denver, although they're all either religious or Spanish...

Thanks for any advice!
-Bret

Welcome Bret -
I live in the northwest part of town, near Taft Hill and Vine. Any recommendations for antennas to try? At my old house in a far-off land, I had a Channelmaster 4221 with a 7777 pre-amp that worked great. Got good signal from over 70 miles away from the tower. Unfortunately, it had to stay with my old house.

Will something like that work, or does everyone around here use yagi-type antennas with a rotator?In general, you'll want to get the biggest, most directional VHF/UHF antenna you can manage, and mount it as high as possible, with a decent low noise figure preamp. I'm using a Winegard HD-7082 with an AP-8700 preamp.

As far as I can tell, very few folks use a rotor -- from this far away, the Denver stations' towers are all within the beam width of most antennae (although you *could* use one to swing north towards Cheyenne). Actually, since you're so far northwest, you may be in the "shadow" of the foothills, in which case pointing north would probably be your best option.

How far Northeast are you? I'm clear up in Laporte. How clearly are all those stations coming in?I'm in NE FC, near Lemay and Country Club. I have trees and a small hilltop in the way. Right now my antenna (a $25 Radio Shack UHF antenna) is sitting at ground level behind some bushes. So it's not exactly an ideal installation. :)

You can see in my earlier post what stations I get. Signal strength is usually in the 75-85 range. If I put it on the roof, I might get 4/7/9. With an amplifier it would probably do better.

Welcome Bret -
In general, you'll want to get the biggest, most directional VHF/UHF antenna you can manage, and mount it as high as possible, with a decent low noise figure preamp. I'm using a Winegard HD-7082 with an AP-8700 preamp.

As far as I can tell, very few folks use a rotor -- from this far away, the Denver stations' towers are all within the beam width of most antennae (although you *could* use one to swing north towards Cheyenne). Actually, since you're so far northwest, you may be in the "shadow" of the foothills, in which case pointing north would probably be your best option.


Thanks digi.

I was thinking the same thing about the foothills. Sometimes multipath can work to your advantage, though. The 4221 I had has a very wide beam width, and woud even pick channels up off of the back of it. What I was hoping is that I could point it south to try to pick up channels from Denver, and maybe get lucky and pick up CBS from Cheyenne off the back of the array. Have you or anyone else here tried the bowtie-type antennas in this area? The 4228 is also good, but tends to be much more directional.

I'd rather keep things a little more low-profile for now (trying to make friends in the 'hood). ;)

Thoughts?

I'm in NE FC, near Lemay and Country Club. I have trees and a small hilltop in the way. Right now my antenna (a $25 Radio Shack UHF antenna) is sitting at ground level behind some bushes. So it's not exactly an ideal installation. :)

You can see in my earlier post what stations I get. Signal strength is usually in the 75-85 range. If I put it on the roof, I might get 4/7/9. With an amplifier it would probably do better.

Those little rat-shack yagis work pretty well. I used one several years ago, and could pick up stations from over 70 miles away. Put it on the roof, and let us know what kind of results you get.

I'd rather keep things a little more low-profile for now (trying to make friends in the 'hood). ;)

Thoughts?I should have mentioned that my antenna is *inside* my attic -- can't get much "lower profile" than that. :cool:

Worth trying if you've got a two-story (or a ranch on a hill)...

Well I got a 60" SXRD and hooked up my OTA attic antenna and receive the following HD channels at night:
6.1,7.1,9.1
Reception varies over time but usually by 6PM I can get these stations.
I consistantly get 5.1 and 31.1 and 2.1 plus some others 6.1, 12.1,22.1 54.1? and maybe one other one. though these are not all HD.

I am unable to get 4.1 at anytime.

Reggie

So, did Dtv ever get the locals up? I've been thinking about going HD, I'm currently a sub with them--Even though I'm rather angry with them at the moment, they are still preferable to comcast in my mind. Sounds like OTA is fairly hopeless. It's a shame, the difficulty (and/or expense) in getting a signal is really making me reconsider whether or not to purchase a tv.

So, did Dtv ever get the locals up? I've been thinking about going HD, I'm currently a sub with them--Even though I'm rather angry with them at the moment, they are still preferable to comcast in my mind. Sounds like OTA is fairly hopeless. It's a shame, the difficulty (and/or expense) in getting a signal is really making me reconsider whether or not to purchase a tv.
Yes since late spring - you need the new dish and MPEG4 receiver.

Reggie

Yes since late spring - you need the new dish and MPEG4 receiver.


Well, anyone around these parts using DTV? Happy? I hate to toss my Tivo, but DVR > HD for me...anyone got the new DTV version?

Well, anyone around these parts using DTV? Happy? I hate to toss my Tivo, but DVR > HD for me...anyone got the new DTV version?

Are you contract locked into DirecTV? I am pretty happy with DISH and the 622 HD DVR. DISH has a bit more HD content and the locals seem to be a bit less compressed. The 622 seems to be a good box with most of the TIVO features like Name Base Recording, season pass, 30 second skip and dual tuners plus OTA (not that OTA terribly matters up here) And the 622 is shipping.

Are you contract locked into DirecTV? I am pretty happy with DISH and the 622 HD DVR. DISH has a bit more HD content and the locals seem to be a bit less compressed. The 622 seems to be a good box with most of the TIVO features like Name Base Recording, season pass, 30 second skip and dual tuners plus OTA (not that OTA terribly matters up here) And the 622 is shipping.

No, i'm not...in fact, I recently had a dispute with DTV that got resolved, but after an unacceptable amount of work on my part. I may indeed look into Dish--based on what I have read, the downside is no hd locals, right? (thanks for the info)

No, i'm not...in fact, I recently had a dispute with DTV that got resolved, but after an unacceptable amount of work on my part. I may indeed look into Dish--based on what I have read, the downside is no hd locals, right? (thanks for the info)

Untrue. I receive the major 4 local affiliates (ABC,CBS, NBC and Fox)in HD. No channel 2, 6 or 20, but I don't believe that DTV has those either. All other stations are there in standard definition, including the shopping, religious, KBDI and spanish language channels.

Here is the chart from the Dish site https://customersupport.dishnetwork.com/customernetqual/prepAddress.do


Denver, CO Locals Package - $5.99 per month
Station Local Channel Number Dish Channel Number
DENVER ABC-KMGH 7 8200
DENVER ABC-KMGH HD 7 6330
DENVER AZTECA-KZCO 27 8215
DENVER CBS-KCNC 4 8201
DENVER CBS-KCNC HD 4 6331
DENVER FOX-KDVR 31 8203
DENVER FOX-KDVR HD 31 6333
DENVER IND-KWHD 53 8210
DENVER MNT-KTVD 20 8205
DENVER NBC-KUSA 9 8202
DENVER NBC-KUSA HD 9 6332
DENVER PBS-KRMA 6 8206
DENVER PBS-KBDI 12 8211
DENVER TELEFUTURA-KTFD 14 8212
DENVER TMNDO-KDEN 25 8213
DENVER THE CW-KWGN 2 8204
DENVER UNVSN-KCEC 50 8208
DENVER i TV-KPXC 59 8214


Also includes Altitude and FSRocky Mtn.

Are you contract locked into DirecTV? I am pretty happy with DISH and the 622 HD DVR. DISH has a bit more HD content and the locals seem to be a bit less compressed. The 622 seems to be a good box with most of the TIVO features like Name Base Recording, season pass, 30 second skip and dual tuners plus OTA (not that OTA terribly matters up here) And the 622 is shipping.

Dang, they certainly seem to be competative. I'm going to have to look into them some more, thanks. Their website is on the messed up side this morning...I've heard altitude is in HD on comcast, is that true for dish, too? As a hockey fan, that's a BIG plus.

I've heard altitude is in HD on comcast, is that true for dish, too? As a hockey fan, that's a BIG plus.

Lots of rumors about Altitude and FS-RM but nothing has materialized. People report that FSRM is uplinked but not available to viewers. Even that is not a certainty. I would only count on std def for now.

Dish Network (E*) will carry game only content in HD for Avalanche and Nuggets games on channel 360. Don't know how that will work when both teams play overlap on the same night.

Dish Network (E*) will carry game only content in HD for Avalanche and Nuggets games on channel 360. Don't know how that will work when both teams play overlap on the same night.
D* has HD Avs too:
DENVER, October 5 – Altitude Sports & Entertainment (Altitude), the television home of the Colorado Avalanche and the Denver Nuggets, today announced that DIRECTV will televise 37 Avalanche and 38 Nuggets 2006-07 regular-season games in high definition television (HDTV), beginning with this Sunday’s October 8th contest against the Vancouver Canucks.

DIRECTV’s HD broadcasts of Avalanche and Nuggets games will be available to customers residing in the Denver designated market area (DMA). Customers should contact DIRECTV at 1-800-DIRECTV or Directvcom for more information on availability. The HD games (including pre-and post game shows) will be available on channel 97. Altitude will present the games in the industry-leading 1080i HD format, along with Dolby stereo sound.

“We are constantly working to provide added value to cable operators, satellite providers, and to all of our viewers in Colorado and throughout our telecast territory,” said Altitude’s COO Matt Hutchings. “The viewer demand for more HDTV programming continues to grow and now Avalanche and Nuggets fans will have access to the best TV format available. We thank DIRECTV for considering their subscribers -- and our fans and viewers.”

“We’re delighted to respond to fans’ request for more HD sports programming with broadcasts of Avalanche and Nuggets games in crystal-clear, high-resolution HD,” said Dan Fawcett, executive vice president, Programming Acquisition, DIRECTV, Inc. “Unless you’re sitting rink-side or court-side, there’s no better seat in the house than in front of your HDTV watching your favorite team on DIRECTV.”

Customers who live within Altitude’s service territory and the DMA will be required to have the MPEG4 compatible HD receiver (H20) or the DIRECTV Plus HD DVR (HR20) along with a five LNB dish to receive Altitude’s HD programming.

Ironwood came out today and installed a HR20 and a AT9 dish - now I have full time HD locals :)

I think you'll like it, Reggie. It's DIFFERENT from the HD Tivo. Some better, some worse, but the bottom line is we have no other way to get our HD locals recorded. The bugs are getting worked out little by little, but it's quite functional now. Enjoy!

I think you'll like it, Reggie. It's DIFFERENT from the HD Tivo. Some better, some worse, but the bottom line is we have no other way to get our HD locals recorded. The bugs are getting worked out little by little, but it's quite functional now. Enjoy!
Thanks - it does take some getting use to. Not as intuitive as Tivo but still functional.
I like being able to use the menu and still see and hear the picture.

I find it hilarious that everyone on the Cheyenne forum is from Colorado!

I find it hilarious that everyone on the Cheyenne forum is from Colorado!
Well, the thread was originally titled "Northern Colorado / SE Wyoming DTV", but someone changed it a while back. Not that it matters either way...

Still, the whole thing *is* a sad commentary on the state of DTV in Colorado. I wonder if most of sCARE's soft money came from the old TCI, as an attempt to keep free DTV out of its own backyard?

Well, the thread was originally titled "Northern Colorado / SE Wyoming DTV", but someone changed it a while back. Not that it matters either way...

Still, the whole thing *is* a sad commentary on the state of DTV in Colorado. I wonder if most of sCARE's soft money came from the old TCI, as an attempt to keep free DTV out of its own backyard?

It seems that in Ohio the smaller markets are better about broadcasting things in HD than the big markets...here in SW Ohio, the Dayton stations do better than Cincy and in the Northeastern part of the state a lot of Clevelanders unsatisfied with WOIO's (CBS) lack of HD content are aiming their antennas at Youngstown's blowtorch CBS affiliate WKBN which does a much better job on their DT station of broadcasting in HD.

I find it hilarious that everyone on the Cheyenne forum is from Colorado!

Cheyenne has one digital TV station, KGWN. More people in Colorado, by far I would guess, receive it (including me, on the S side of Denver) than in Wyoming. Unfortunately, there are only 50,006 people (saw this number on a road sign entering the city numerous times), so it's probably more like a minuscule market versus a small market. But when you add 130K to 150K population around Ft. Collins, then add some of the Denver DMA, you can understand why the only posters to this thread are from Colorado. And did I mention that there are only 3 HDTV's in Cheyenne. ;)

You're lucky that you receive signals from two markets, and full power to boot. When I lived in Cincinnati (N. Ky.)(left in 1985), besides the Dayton/Cinti stations, I could also get channels 3 & 11 from Louisville and channel 4 from Bloomington, IN. So when one channel screws up the HD or goes off the air, you have someplace else to turn. Here, in low power heaven, N. CO. residents are lucky to get 3 digital channels, with no ABC or NBC.

I'm a Bearcat grad and used to watch the Bob Shreve all-nighters on Channels 7 & 9 on the weekends. I presume Al Schottlekotte finally bit the dust. That's the one and only local newscast I've ever seen that was named for the anchor instead of for the station.

And I'll have a 3-way and a cheese coney (no onions) to go. :D

Cheyenne has one digital TV station, KGWN. More people in Colorado, by far I would guess, receive it (including me, on the S side of Denver) than in Wyoming. Unfortunately, there are only 50,006 people (saw this number on a road sign entering the city numerous times), so it's probably more like a minuscule market versus a small market. But when you add 130K to 150K population around Ft. Collins, then add some of the Denver DMA, you can understand why the only posters to this thread are from Colorado. And did I mention that there are only 3 HDTV's in Cheyenne. ;)

You're lucky that you receive signals from two markets, and full power to boot. When I lived in Cincinnati (N. Ky.)(left in 1985), besides the Dayton/Cinti stations, I could also get channels 3 & 11 from Louisville and channel 4 from Bloomington, IN. So when one channel screws up the HD or goes off the air, you have someplace else to turn. Here, in low power heaven, N. CO. residents are lucky to get 3 digital channels, with no ABC or NBC.

I'm a Bearcat grad and used to watch the Bob Shreve all-nighters on Channels 7 & 9 on the weekends. I presume Al Schottlekotte finally bit the dust. That's the one and only local newscast I've ever seen that was named for the anchor instead of for the station.

And I'll have a 3-way and a cheese coney (no onions) to go. :D

I'll UPS you your order. :D

Cheyenne is in the 190s ranking among DMA's...although I'd figure SOMEONE there would be on this board! The city has 50k but the entire DMA has closer to 150,000 - 200,000 people I think.

Cheyenne has one digital TV station, KGWN. More people in Colorado, by far I would guess, receive it (including me, on the S side of Denver) than in Wyoming. Unfortunately, there are only 50,006 people (saw this number on a road sign entering the city numerous times), so it's probably more like a minuscule market versus a small market. But when you add 130K to 150K population around Ft. Collins, then add some of the Denver DMA, you can understand why the only posters to this thread are from Colorado. And did I mention that there are only 3 HDTV's in Cheyenne. ;)

You're lucky that you receive signals from two markets, and full power to boot. When I lived in Cincinnati (N. Ky.)(left in 1985), besides the Dayton/Cinti stations, I could also get channels 3 & 11 from Louisville and channel 4 from Bloomington, IN. So when one channel screws up the HD or goes off the air, you have someplace else to turn. Here, in low power heaven, N. CO. residents are lucky to get 3 digital channels, with no ABC or NBC.

I'm a Bearcat grad and used to watch the Bob Shreve all-nighters on Channels 7 & 9 on the weekends. I presume Al Schottlekotte finally bit the dust. That's the one and only local newscast I've ever seen that was named for the anchor instead of for the station.

And I'll have a 3-way and a cheese coney (no onions) to go. :D

I'm in Mason so I am a bit too far north and east to get Louisville reliably (can sometimes get WBNS 10 analog in Columbus) but occasionally I will get Ch. 11 analog, snowy but watchable if the weather's just right. However, I'm almost equidistant from the Dayton and Cinci towers (about 8 miles closer to Cincy) so those are no problem!

Did they change the name now to NoCo/SE Wyoming?

Did they change the name now to NoCo/SE Wyoming?
Hi Reggie -

Actually, David changed it back to its original name, at my request. Virtually all of this thread's posts have been from folks living in FtC, Loveland, Greeley, and Windsor, and I wanted to avoid the confusion of redundant threads (constant cross-referencing, cross-posting, having to monitor both, etc).

- digiphotonerd

Glad to see the name change on this thread. Now if we just had something to talk about....

;)

Sad state of affairs here for OTA. At least I can get NFC games in HD. Thanks KDVR for having a local translator!

Is there anyone around here that has US Cable? I am outside of Comcast's sphere of influence by exactly 2 houses. They (US Cable) allude to HD being on the way, but nobody seems to have a clue as to when this may or may not happen.

I had US Cable (which I referred to as Billy Bob's Kountry Kable Kump'ny) before changing to Dish. They seemed firmly mired in the 70's, technology-wise. They kept claiming they were going to have digital cable and net access Real Soon Now, but after 3 years of hearing that and no reality I gave 'em the heave-ho. As far as I know they STILL don't have digital around here.

LOL ^^^

Well, I have my internet service through them, and it has been decent so far (got it in September). I have Dish for my TV, but I don't want to invest in a new receiver at this point in time.

From what 2 (and I think they are the ONLY 2 they have) CSRs have told me, they do have digital service now, but are completely clueless about HD.

I have 3 OTA receivers of varying age and pedigree, just can't pull much in... <sigh>

I hope this is the right thread to pose my question.

I'm interested in OTA DTV/HDTV.
I would like to put the antenna in my antic even if it isn't the best thing to do,
if possible.

My house sit a top a hill and has no visible obstruction,
except of course the Rocky Mountians to the West.

Attic is about 3 stories up.

Location:
Fort Collins CO 80524
North of Terry Lake for those who know the area.

AnntennaWeb has the following:

* yellow - vhf KKTU-DT 11.1 ABC CHEYENNE WY 209° 8.6 11
yellow - uhf KFCT 22 FOX FORT COLLINS CO 80° 14.5 22
green - uhf KDEN 25 IND LONGMONT CO 155° 39.0 25
lt green - uhf K48CG 48 TBN LOVELAND CO 210° 8.4 48
* red - uhf KDEN-DT 29.1 IND LONGMONT CO 155° 39.0 29
* red - uhf KPXC-DT 43 i DENVER CO TBD 175° 67.2 43
red - vhf KRMA 6 PBS DENVER CO 177° 63.5 6
red - vhf KMGH 7 ABC DENVER CO 177° 63.5 7
red - uhf KDVR 31 FOX DENVER CO 177° 63.5 31
blue - uhf KDEO-LP 23 REL AURORA CO 175° 67.2 23
blue - uhf KMAS-LP 63 TEL DENVER CO 175° 67.2 63
blue - uhf KPXC 59 i DENVER CO 175° 67.2 59
blue - vhf KBDI 12 PBS BROOMFIELD CO 188° 69.7 12
blue - uhf K54IK 54 IND FORT COLLINS CO 209° 8.6 54
blue - vhf KGWN 5 CBS CHEYENNE WY 358° 31.9 5
blue - uhf KLWY 27 FOX CHEYENNE WY 10° 30.0 27
* violet - uhf KFCT-DT 21.1 FOX FORT COLLINS CO 80° 14.5 21
* violet - uhf KDVR-DT 31.1 FOX DENVER CO 177° 63.5 32

I've been thinking about the CM-4228.


I like to avoid a rotor if possible, since I have no easy way of routing rotor control cable to the attic.

I also have have a run of approx 200 ft of RG-6.

What do people suggest/experience in antennas and their OTA reception

Thanks
Greg

Hi Greg,

Having tried a couple, I know that attic installations can be hit or miss. A lot depends upon the construction materials used in your home. A third floor attic sounds promising from a height perspective, though.

You'll just have to try it and see what happens.

As far as your choice of antenna, the CM4228 is very directional. If you hope to get reception from Wyoming and Denver with that model, you're likely to need a rotator. You might get lucky and get some reception off of the back side, though. I owned one of these for a year or so, and could sometimes get signal from the back side of it.

The other item of note is your cable run. 200' is a loooong way. You will definitely need a preamp. I have used the Channel Master Titan 2 7777 with very good results. If there's any way to shorten your run, that will make a difference.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

making the cable run shorter would be difficult. The house was wired with an OnQ setup
so the RG6 comes to the central hub and gets redistributed from there.
The splitter is passive one.

Should I amplify there or at the antenna ?

Are there ways to run a rotor from the cable (RG6) without further cabling?
I don't know much about them.

Is there a better choice of antenna?

Thanks
Greg

The pre-amp comes in 2 pieces. One goes on the mast, closest to the antenna balun. The other half you'll want to put close to your TV, and it has a wall outlet for power.

Distribution amps are a different beast, and would go at your hub.

Rotators will require separate wiring.

As far as your choice of antenna, bigger is better, at least in this area. The 4228 is an excellent antenna with serious range. Give it a try. Just buy from a dealer who will let you return it if it doesn't work.

Hi Greg,

Having tried a couple, I know that attic installations can be hit or miss. A lot depends upon the construction materials used in your home. A third floor attic sounds promising from a height perspective, though.

You'll just have to try it and see what happens.

As far as your choice of antenna, the CM4228 is very directional. If you hope to get reception from Wyoming and Denver with that model, you're likely to need a rotator. You might get lucky and get some reception off of the back side, though. I owned one of these for a year or so, and could sometimes get signal from the back side of it.

The other item of note is your cable run. 200' is a loooong way. You will definitely need a preamp. I have used the Channel Master Titan 2 7777 with very good results. If there's any way to shorten your run, that will make a difference.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.
Good advice - I have a attic antenna [Wingard VHS and UHF] and get HD Cheyenne CBS (5) and Fox (31) consistently but never have gotten 4 - I sometimes get 9 and 7 - and had expected to get them more as the night time occurs earlier - but that has not been the case.

I seldom check OTA any more (I'm using my Sony SXRD Tv tuner) now that I have Directv HR-20 and can get local HD and the Atltude sports.

Watching the SEC Championship game on KGWN-HD out of Cheyenne and it is absolutely horrible. Macroblocking all over the place. I see that theyhave a 5-2 with the exact same thing on it as 5-1 - what's the point of that?? I had to switch to the west coast CBS HD channel to get a watchable signal.

If people aren't active on the Denver OTA thread, please head over and look at this post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9109393&&#post9109393

Lake Cedar Group got a bill passed in the Senate to allow them to build the new tower on Lookout Mountain. This is pretty much the only way we're going to get OTA digital in Northern Colorado any time soon.

We need people to contact their Congressional representatives to get this sponsored and passed in the House. Contact info is in the aforementioned post.

Denver Post story: http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4801304

If people aren't active on the Denver OTA thread, please head over and look at this post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9109393&&#post9109393

Lake Cedar Group got a bill passed in the Senate to allow them to build the new tower on Lookout Mountain. This is pretty much the only way we're going to get OTA digital in Northern Colorado any time soon.

We need people to contact their Congressional representatives to get this sponsored and passed in the House. Contact info is in the aforementioned post.

Denver Post story: http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4801304

Thanks for posting the info! I've created threads on about a dozen other forums and sent an email to MANY and hopefully we'll get an overwhelming response to the reps. Keep us posted!

I'm new to this, live in SW Loveland, and have a Symphonic 32" LCD. I get a good signal on 22.1 from Fort Collins, and 12.1 12.2 and 12.3, using an inside amplified antenna. The strongest signal I get is from 11.1 - 11.6, out of Cheyenne. The picture is great, but I don't get any audio from the broadcasts on 11. The TV has an audio button, which steps through the audio options, when there are options. Channel 11 shows up as other, and will not change. Any ideas, on what the problem might be? Anybody else have problems with channel 11??

Thanks in advance,
Ken

Hi Ken,

11 (probably still on Horsetooth) has appeared before, never any sound. Worth checking occasionally to see if they get their problem fixed. Although it's digital, it's never been HD. If you point your antenna north, you should also get KGWN channel 30 CBS from Cheyenne.

Bill

In case anyone is interested...

I picked one of these up on a whim to see what could be picked up, and potentially add as a 2nd antenna specifically for Channel 5 in Cheyenne.

Right now, it's mounted on a 5' mast and leaning against a wall in my living room (wife is out of town, so I can get away with this ;) ). Pointing it about 176*, I pick up 2-1, 2-2, 5-1 (catching signal off back of antenna), 5-2, 11-1 thru 11-13, 14-1, 22-1, and 25-1. Also get some snowy analogs from Denver. Not too shabby. I imagine that mounting on the roof will only improve things.

About 4 years ago, I used one of these with good success, before switching to a CM4221. Considering this Rat Shack yagi only costs $25, it's a great value for what it'll pull-in.

In case anyone is interested...

I picked one of these up on a whim to see what could be picked up, and potentially add as a 2nd antenna specifically for Channel 5 in Cheyenne.

Right now, it's mounted on a 5' mast and leaning against a wall in my living room (wife is out of town, so I can get away with this ;) ). Pointing it about 176*, I pick up 2-1, 2-2, 5-1 (catching signal off back of antenna), 5-2, 11-1 thru 11-13, 14-1, 22-1, and 25-1. Also get some snowy analogs from Denver. Not too shabby. I imagine that mounting on the roof will only improve things.

About 4 years ago, I used one of these with good success, before switching to a CM4221. Considering this Rat Shack yagi only costs $25, it's a great value for what it'll pull-in.

You will still need a rotor to optimize things

You will still need a rotor to optimize things

Agreed, if this were to be my only antenna. I currently use a CM 4228, and got this to experiment with, and possibly add to my system with a combiner. Rotors have very low WAF...

The point of my post was to illustrate that even "cheap" antennas can perform fairly well in our area.

My attic antenna will not let me get 11-1 as I am sure I am too directional with my fixed position.

I wonder what it costs to have a mast rotor and my existing antenna mounted outside?

My attic antenna will not let me get 11-1 as I am sure I am too directional with my fixed position.

LOL. You ain't missin' much...

I wonder what it costs to have a mast rotor and my existing antenna mounted outside?

Figure ~ $85 for a rotor with IR remote, $8 for a 5 foot mast, and then varied costs depending on you attach the mast to your roof. Chimney straps range from $10-25, and wall/eave connections are about $10-15.

Was KDVR (FOX) off the air last night? I tried to record 24, and my signal meter showed zip, zero, nada. Ended up recording it in SD on my Dish PVR instead.

Was KDVR (FOX) off the air last night? I tried to record 24, and my signal meter showed zip, zero, nada. Ended up recording it in SD on my Dish PVR instead.


I recorded 24 OTA on 31-1 last night on my HD Tivo.

I recorded 24 OTA on 31-1 last night on my HD Tivo.

Thanks for the reply. I tune to the Ft Collins translator (22-x), and it was completely dark for me. Normally, I get ~88% signal quality, as measured by my receiver.

I didn't check 22-1 last night, but I just checked it now and it's working for me. Is it still down for you?

When I checked yesterday evening, it was working fine, with high signal strength. Don't know what happened on Monday, which is why I posted the query.

Fitting that one of the few shows I watch on Fox wouldn't work when I want to record it...

Hey there.

I picked up a Samsung 46" HDTV yesterday. I was wondering what my chances of getting NBC HD in Fort Collins is? I have a rooftop antenna (VHF/UHF?) that I have pointing due south at the moment, going directly into the TV. I get about 23 channels, about 10 or so of which are of decent quality, and about 5 are digital. (Fox, 11.1 and 11.2, two Spanish channels...) I also get the Cheyenne CBS station really well if I point the antenna north.

Do I stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting 9.1? I'm in Fort Collins, near Mulberry and Shields. There are some trees around, but pretty much a good line of sight to the south, and I'm in a one story house with an attic, but with an 8 foot mast on the antenna, so it's moderately high. 3 out of the 5 shows we watch on a regular basis are on NBC, so I'd win major brownie points with the girl if we could watch them in HD. ;)

Do I stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting 9.1? I'm in Fort Collins, near Mulberry and Shields. There are some trees around, but pretty much a good line of sight to the south, and I'm in a one story house with an attic, but with an 8 foot mast on the antenna, so it's moderately high.

Once the LCG tower is installed on Lookout Mountain, you should be able to get 9.1 pretty easily. Until then, your snowball will probably be *really* warm. :(

Currently, the digital versions of CW2, Fox31, PBS 11, and CBS 5 (Cheyenne) are fairly easy to get from FtC...

Hey there.

I picked up a Samsung 46" HDTV yesterday. I was wondering what my chances of getting NBC HD in Fort Collins is? I have a rooftop antenna (VHF/UHF?) that I have pointing due south at the moment, going directly into the TV. I get about 23 channels, about 10 or so of which are of decent quality, and about 5 are digital. (Fox, 11.1 and 11.2, two Spanish channels...) I also get the Cheyenne CBS station really well if I point the antenna north.

Do I stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting 9.1? I'm in Fort Collins, near Mulberry and Shields. There are some trees around, but pretty much a good line of sight to the south, and I'm in a one story house with an attic, but with an 8 foot mast on the antenna, so it's moderately high. 3 out of the 5 shows we watch on a regular basis are on NBC, so I'd win major brownie points with the girl if we could watch them in HD. ;)
You should get 9-1 and 9-2 (I do but sporadically with a attic antenna here in Huntington Hills.) But so much will depend on the aiming of the antenna and the sensitivity of your tv (or receiver) tuner

Okay, so I've had a few days to play with it.

The only reliable HD signals I've been able to get so far have been Fox 22, CBS in Cheyenne (5, I think?), some crazy independent channels on 11 ("The Bad Television" Channel (Matlock? MATLOCK?! Maybe when my grandma gets an HDTV...) on 11-1 and the "Grainy Music Videos for Old Lame Songs" Channel on 11-2.), a couple of Spanish language channels that are digital, but not high def. (given some of the outfits that the ladies wear on the Spanish soap operas, this is almost a shame...)

This morning it occurred to me that when I unhooked the cable wire (we don't have cable) and hooked up the rooftop antenna, I had inadvertently passed the grounding block. I hooked up the ground block and picked up 5 more stations, including 2-1 and 2-2 (CW). They were really weak signals, though, and the tuner (I have a Samsung 4695) couldn't hold them. (maybe it'll come in after dark?)

I'm contemplating getting a preamp (Winegard 8780? CM7777?) and just hooking that up to the existing antenna (an older UHF/VHF combo) to see if I can pull in the Denver stations better. At least to boost the CW. I'm worried about overload from two stations that Antenna web says are 6 miles from my house. TBN (48) and 54, which I think is the "Bad Television Analog" Channel ('Mama's Family' was on there last night. I think).

Anyway, I'm probably going to get a rotator this weekend, if I can find one locally. (Mountain State didn't have any....I'd like to get a Channel Master, I think, or at least something that I can control via the Harmony 880 remote...)

Any ideas, comments, suggestions?

Well I am just south of loveland and I can get 9.1 as well as 7.1 from time to time.....The amplifier does help but get a UHF model only....4.1 is not possible to get the frequency is too high and the ridge north of longmont pretty much blocks it's signal.

I have tried 3 different antennas and basically it is a rolling of the dice to get the low power signal from downtown Denver.

Good luck.......

Any ideas, comments, suggestions?

A few comments. You are talking about laying out a reasonable amount of money to try to get a station that very few people this far north can get. The fact that channel 2 doesn't get a strong lock isn't reassuring. I get 2-1 very strong, and don't see any sign of channel 9. 2-1 is broadcasting from Lookout Mountain (but not quite full power - 450kW). 9-1 is from a tiny underpowered (10.9kW) antenna on Republic Plaza. A few people in Loveland have reported success - I don't remember anyone as far north in Fort Collins as you are reporting success with the Republic Plaza stations.

With a new TV, your TV should have a cable QAM tuner. For $14.99 you can get the basic cable package from Comcast. This will give you HD on CW, ABC, CBS, NBC and FOX through your TV's tuner. You could probably get that for a year for what you're talking about spending on antenna accessories. You'd only have to do that for 15-24 months, until most stations go full power digital from Lookout mountain.

If you really want to take a shot at hitting KUSA-DT, make sure you have your antenna aimed precisely. Try this web page to calculate the azimuth:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/audio/bickel/distance.html

The coordinates for various digital broadcast locations from Denver are:
KUSA-DT 39° 44' 37.00" N Latitude 104° 59' 18.00" W Longitude
KWGN-DT 39° 43' 58.00" N Latitude 105° 14' 7.00 " W Longitude
KDVR-DT 39° 43' 45.00" N Latitude 105° 14' 12.00" W Longitude
KBDI-DT 39° 40' 55.00" N Latitude 105° 29' 49.00" W Longitude

I pulled those from here: http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html

A couple additional comments/?'s for abbub:

What antenna are you using? This will have a big bearing on whether or not you have any shot at getting channel 9.

The other thing that I would comment on is your location and house. You mentioned that you live in a single-story home in the middle of town. Come springtime, when the leaves start returning, your signal strength will likely be negatively impacted.

jcloudm's advice on QAM is sound. If you are serious about watching channel 9 in HD, that's probably going to be your best (cheapest) option. At least until the new tower is installed on Lookout Mtn.

For finding a local retailer with rotators, there's a shop on Mason St, just north of Horsetooth, can't remember the name off the top of my head. The owner is a nice guy, but don't bother talking to him about OTA HD reception issues. He had a defeatist attitude when I spoke to him ~6 months ago.

Best of luck!!!

Hi Reggie -

Actually, David changed it back to its original name, at my request. Virtually all of this thread's posts have been from folks living in FtC, Loveland, Greeley, and Windsor, and I wanted to avoid the confusion of redundant threads (constant cross-referencing, cross-posting, having to monitor both, etc).

- digiphotonerd

The name was changed when the format for the forum changed. The Thread Index divides the threads by DMA so members enter the appropriate thread for the affiliates they are discussing. It isn't divided based on everyone's residence or we'd need hundreds of threads for all the overlap areas. Ft. Collins, Greely, and Windsor are part of the Denver DMA, but if you want to discuss a Cheyenne station it would be in the Cheyenne thread.

We do need a thread for the Cheyenne, WY /Scottsbluff, NE DMA however, so if someone wants to start one up with a summary of the HD channels available, send me a PM (assuming you guys want to keep this thread separate).

Hey, guys, thanks for the comments. I'd pretty much given up on getting 9 in HD after the first day. We'll make do with analog until the new tower goes up for NBC. The idea for the amplifier was to pull in the analog stations a little bit better, and maybe to lock the CW down. 100-120 dollars was what I planned to spend on the amp and rotator, and if that didn't work, leave well enough alone. That's about well under a year of cable bills, even for the 'minimum' option. Also, my TV is a 4695 Samsung, not a 4696, so it doesn't have the QAM tuner (which would be another $5 rental fee each month.) Also, I know it probably sounds silly, but until cable companies move to an ala carte system (unlikely to happen, I know) I really have no plans to support their business model.

bretski, the antenna is the one that came with the house. it's a VHF/UHF combo, and seems like it's probably 'medium' sized rooftop antenna. I haven't measured it, or looked for a model/maker.

Update:

I swung by Mountain State and bought the 8700 preamp, which gives 19db on UHF and VHF. The nice guy there told me they were lenient with their return policy, and I could return it if it didn't do what I needed it to do, which is all I could ask for.

Got home, hooked it up, and it seems to have sharpened 9 analog a little bit, which is cool. What's *really* cool is that it's brought CW2 in! The Antenna is bouncing around a lot in the wind, so the signal is bouncing between 3-5 bars (out of 10) and falling out every once in a while. I assume it'll be better when the winds aren't blowing at 25 MPh.

Also, after objectively looking at the antenna, it's actually pretty small compared to other houses, and the ballun is radioshack branded, which makes me thing the antenna itself probably is, too. (The center rod is sort of a aqua blue color, if that means anything.)

(The center rod is sort of a aqua blue color, if that means anything.)

I got rid of an antenna that had a center rod colored aqua blue. I bought it at RS probably 25 years ago. The UHF portion of it on the front did not have the corner reflectors that you see on today's antennas. If yours is like this one, it probably came from RS.

milehighmike, that sounds like the beast. it does not have corner reflectors on the UHF portion. I suppose a new antenna might be a good idea?

I suppose a new antenna might be a good idea?

I trashed the old RS because almost every connection was very corroded/rusted, especially at the connection for the balun/cable. I remember having to saw the bolts off of it to retrieve the balun.

For some reason my HR-20 does not pick up Cheyenne anymore - sigh

I can't receive kgwn anymore either. I wonder if there're down due to switching over to their permanent high power transmitter.

I just checked and I'm not able to receive it either.

I just checked and I'm not able to receive it either.
That's good news for me anyway - I was afraid my HR-20 was having problems or one of the latest software downloads caused the performance to suffer (I'm part of the cutting edge group at dbstalk)

I'm doing that also, Reggie. Didn't download yesterdays, though.

There was a posting in the Denver thread that they had an issue with the feed to the transmitter. Supposed to be fixed today...

Found this in an article in the Loveland paper earlier this week. Can anyone confirm this?

"KGWN’s tower is 11 miles from the Colorado state line, and last week the station upped the power from 50,000 watts to 450,000 watts, meaning a television with a rabbit-ear antenna should be able to pick up this digital signal all the way down to Highway E-470."

"KGWN’s tower is 11 miles from the Colorado state line, and last week the station upped the power from 50,000 watts to 450,000 watts, meaning a television with a rabbit-ear antenna should be able to pick up this digital signal all the way down to Highway E-470."

I used to get KGWN very reliably when they were at low power. Since they've upped their power by about 10 fold, I can't get a whiff of their signal anymore. They also changed their signal pattern from non-directional under the low power transmitter to a directional signal favoring due south with their full power transmitter. Their actual coverage contour didn't change that much between the two transmitters.

I guess I'm in a signal null now when I wasn't before.

Mike,

Do you have a link to the signal patterns? I'd like to take a look at them. Thanks!

Go to www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html and type in KGWN in the call sign box, then click on "TV Query (detailed output +CDBS links)". When the next page comes on screen, click on "Service Contour Map (41 dBu)" for the full power and STA transmitters to see the differences in the coverage maps. You can view the directional signal strength of the full power transmitter by clicking on "Relative Field polar plot" under the portion of the info relevant to the full power transmission.

Thank you very much, Mike. Who knew that the FCC could be helpful??? ;)

I think that overall, KGWN's signal strength is unchanged at my location. I still can't get any signal down in the man-cave on the silver sensor that I have down there, nor with a larger yagi. My attic-mounted CM antenna doesn't show any difference in SNR from what I've previously measured.

Does anyone know if comcast is going to have channel 5 in NC for Eagles game on saturday?

Testing, testing. Is this thing on? <tap> <tap> Testing.

Testing, testing. Is this thing on? <tap> <tap> Testing.

We're sorry, but the number you dialed is either incorrect, or has been disconnected. Please check the number, and try again in Spring 2008...

It is kind of quiet here since most people go to the Denver OTA to post. I used to like 5 a lot out of wyoming until they started multicasting...yeck.

I used to like 5 a lot out of wyoming until they started multicasting...yeck.

You got that right. Macroblocking is *horrible* with any type of on-screen motion...the US Open finals looked decent, but the football game last week was pretty much unwatchable, IMO.

You got that right. Macroblocking is *horrible* with any type of on-screen motion...the US Open finals looked decent, but the football game last week was pretty much unwatchable, IMO.

Which pretty much leaves us with satellite or Comcast. I agree on KGWN. In spite of the discussion on the Denver thread, I really see no point to a SD 4:3 subchannel. It must have been asked for by one of the cable companies, because I see no other reason why anybody would put it up there.

Where are some local shops to buy antennas? I see Mountain States might carry some, are there any others? Thanks.

Where are some local shops to buy antennas? I see Mountain States might carry some, are there any others? Thanks.

Locally, there aren't a whole lot of options. Mountain States has a few, last time I was there. The owner is a good guy.

Your other local option is Radio Shack. They have a good yagi antenna that is less than $30:

Model: U-75R | Catalog #: 15-2160

This antenna will get you KFTC and KGWN no sweat. It will also pick up several other digitals, including KWGN and KDEV.

Otherwise, I would recommend a ChannelMaster 4221 from one of the many online vendors. Good luck!

Thanks alot for the info. What channels are you currently able to receive?

I went to the Radio shack on College and they didn't have the U-75R in stock so I picked up the VU-90XR. I'm trying it with analog right now (digital receiver is ordered). It helped out alot on getting channel 22 and channels 4, 7, and 9 are defineately watchable now too. Since I'd like to receive the digital channels from Cheyenne and Denver eventually, do you think the DB-4 or DB-8 would be worth it since they're more multi-directional than the CM4221 an 4228 ?

Bretski, are you still using US Cable for your Internet? I had heard that Comcast Internet users could tune QAM channels on the line and was wondering if this was true for US Cable also.

Hemi,

I get everything listed above, plus a bunch of analogs. Call the RatShack on Lemay, they might have the U-75R.

My 4221 is pointed roughly south, and it picks everything up. It gets KGWN off of the backside of the antenna. We'll see what happens when the Lookout Mtn. transmitters come on-line, hopefully it will bring Colorado out of the dark ages...

Inre USCable, yes, I still have them for my 'net access. They are analog only, so no QAM for me...

edited to add: If you need a digital tuner, I have an old Zenith420 (good sensitivity, gets clear QAM) that I'd part with on the cheap...

The UScable guy tried to sell me digital cable when they did the install, so maybe it's new to my area? I'm just off Overland North of Vine.

The HDhomeRun tuner should be here in a few days. I got the VU-90XR installed in the attic just to see how it would handle analog. I hope digital is as good as analog is right now... channels 5,7,9,22 come in great. It's a big antenna so I didn't have but maybe 10deg to turn it, but where it sits after install it's pretty darn good so I'll leave it till i get the tuner. RS said I could try it for 30days, so if it doesn't work out, I'll try the CM4221 or that U-75R. My cable run is straight shot from the 2nd floor attic to the basement, maybe 30ft. I don't think i'll need a preamp.

Thanks for the offer on the tuner. I'll see what happens with the HDhomeRun.

Interesting news on digital from USCable....thanks for the heads-up, because that's new.

You won't need a preamp for FOX and CBS. Both of those transmitters are very close. Remains to be seen if we'll need one when the new tower comes on-line.

Remember that the HDHomerun is digital only. No analog tuners on that box. Offer still stands on the Zenith if you'd like to give it a try. We're practically neighbors! (I'm maybe 1/2 mile from you to the east).

Good luck, and let me know if I can help with anything else!

Every now and then I feel a need to see what digital OTA I can get in Fort Collins. Last week
I had such an urge.

I use a variety of truly bad antennas. I have a large Radio Shack VU-120 in the attic pointing
south, which usually gets me the local FOX repeater (KFCT 22) and not much more. I have
usually used a set of rabbit ears as a second opinion, but last week I tried fiddling with an old
UHF bowtie as well. To my surprise, with the bowtie I got a lock on KGWN 5.1 CBS and
KDEN 25.1 Telemundo. Never did get a sign of Cheyenne's 11.1, though.

I'm not in a hurry to put an antenna outside, given that not a lot of stuff is going to come in yet.
But I was moved to experiment with a Silver Sensor indoor when I found one on Amazon for
$20 with shipping, so I'll have to see how that goes. I want to put up a double-bowtie outside
when the Lookout stuff comes online.

Rob T

With my VU-90XR, I'm getting KWGN 2.1, KGWN 5.2, and KFCT 22.1. KWGN's signal is borderline, but 90% of the time works well.

The HDHomeRun tuner is working great with my home-grown PVR :cool: Like you, I can't wait for the Lookout tower to go online.

Does anyone know what channel is being broadcast over 11.1 ? In the past it has had high signal strength but nothing being broadcast. Just for grins, I tried it tonite and Mission: Impossible and then Matlock were playing on it. I did a search in TV guide to see if i could figure out what channel it was since it was obvious it isn't ABC and can't figure it out. Haven't seen a network logo or commercial indicating what it is yet!

I live in Fort Collins on the northwest side of Terry Lake. "Reggie" (who posts as "Audiguy3" on the Denver forum) told me about this forum. Many thanks, Reggie!

As far as digital television, this is what I can receive these days:

KDEV-DT "UNKNOWN #11_0": Fullscreen, some interlace artifacts and occasionally jerky motion.

KWGN-DT 2.1: Jerky widescreen picture, intermittent sound.

KWGN-DT 2.2: Notice that Tube Music has ceased operations.

KBDI-DT 12.1: Usually fullscreen. Some interlace artifacts and pixellation.

KBDI-DC 12.2: Usually fullscreen. Some interlace artifacts and pixellation.

KBDI-WV 12.3: Usually fullscreen. Some interlace artifacts and pixellation.

KTFD-DT 14.1: Very smooth picture and sound.

KDEN-DT 25.1: Very strange pixellation, like square teardrops. Good sound.

KDVR-DT 31.1: Jerky widescreen picture, intermittent sound.

The poor performance may be due to my hardware, an ATI HDTV Wonder PCI card in a 1 GHz PC with an NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 video card. The PC is running Ubuntu Linux 7.10 with the latest release of Myth TV. Signal is picked up by an attic-mounted Terk 38 (a 14-foot-long wideband antenna) with a direct, unsplit RG-6 feed to the PC. It's aimed due south -- the primary obstruction, aside from the curvature of the planet, is Terry Lake Dam.

How are others here in the Great Frozen North doing in terms of reception?


Jim McCauley

Does anyone know what channel is being broadcast over 11.1 ? In the past it has had high signal strength but nothing being broadcast. Just for grins, I tried it tonite and Mission: Impossible and then Matlock were playing on it. I did a search in TV guide to see if i could figure out what channel it was since it was obvious it isn't ABC and can't figure it out. Haven't seen a network logo or commercial indicating what it is yet!

It's KDEV-DT, a RetroTelevision Network (RTN) affiliate. The channel ID says it originates in "Denver/Aurora" but the transmitter is actually west-by-southwest of Fort Collins, and its business office appears to be in Cheyenne WY. Very odd outfit -- but it's the second-best digital transmission I can get from here.

Jim McCauley

It's KDEV-DT, a RetroTelevision Network (RTN) affiliate. The channel ID says it originates in "Denver/Aurora" but the transmitter is actually west-by-southwest of Fort Collins, and its business office appears to be in Cheyenne WY. Very odd outfit -- but it's the second-best digital transmission I can get from here.

Jim McCauley

Thanks. I have watched it occasionally and still never saw an indication of what it was :)

It could be your hardware, but from the sounds of it, just your location/antenna. I have my radio shack antenna (i think about 6.5-7ft long) in the attic aimed pretty much south since my attic's trusses prevent not much more than 10* rotation. It's on the 2nd floor attic, so it doesn't have too many obstructions.

With the HDHomeRun, I have two PCs currently using it. One is an Opteron 2.6ghz dual core with X1900XTX video card, the other is my dedicated PVR with Athlon64 3700+ Geforce 7300GS. Both are running WinXP and GB-PVR. With the dedicated PVR, the digital channels on the HDHR is a little jerky so we use it to watch mostly analog OTA and the feed from my DishNetwork's STB. A video card upgrade is in it's future, that 7300GS, although passively cooled, can't hold a candle to the latest crop of ATI cards it seems, i.e., HD3850.

The picture is almost always perfect on 22.1 (KDVR) and 2.1 (KWGN). My HDHomeRun reports the signal strength and quality down about 10-15% on the 5.1 (KGWN) which seems to be just enough that I get occasionally drop outs in video (1/2 second blip once every 20-30 seconds) while sound stays steady during the day while it's fine for the most part at night. If there's 6" or more of snow on the roof (like now :D), then I usually can't get anything on that channel... 2.1 also almost becomes unwatchable as well. 22.1 is still fine as well as 11.1. Haven't tried to see if i can get 12.x... will try that tonite.

Hi Jim,

Your reception is pretty typical for us Northern Colorado folks, in terms of channels that can be tuned. One thing that I noticed right off the bat is that you are tuning to 31.1 for KDVR. Tune to 22.1, which is KFTC. It's the local translator of KDVR's signal. You'll get waaaaaaaaaay higher signal strength.

I'll also echo what Hemi345 said about antenna choices. Everyone I've talked to who has tried a Terk model had complaints. If you need an inexpensive choice, try Radioshack's U-75R. It's only about $30, and should be available in one of the two stores in town. Easy to return if it doesn't work well for your location. It also has the advantage of picking up VHF 7 and 9, which will help when they go on-line at Lookout Mountain.

An even better performer will be one of the ChannelMasters, the 4228 or 4221. The 4228 has more gain, but the 4221 is less directional. They also (like the ratshack model), get a decent amount of signal from the back-side, which helps with KGWN.

KGWN's broadcasts generally suck, however. Ridiculous amounts of macroblocking, and they broadcast in SD half the time when it should be HD...

Good luck, and let us know how things work out.

Retro Jams is on 11.2 right now. :D :D

Get zero signal to 12.x from my location.

Jim,

Welcome aboard - Your trying what I did a few years ago, with the PC card tuner. I ran a Hauppuage card and had many issues with getting the drivers to work right. When it did work the HD looked fantansic, and it had a hardware bypass to send the picture info directly to the monitor, bypassing the video card and it's bus, which reduced the load on the computer. That card is no longer made and was fairly crash prone...

Another thing was that the tuner cards tuner algorithm was inferior to what I get out of my newer TV's with built in ASTC tuners. If I understand correctly, the newer stuff is less sesitive to multipath and such.

I agree that you should ditch the Trek and stay away from any 'amplified' antenna types, they will cause more issues then help. I started out with a CM 4221 and had great results - even the low power stuff from Denver would come in occasionally. With the newer TV's, just about anything will pick up the high power stations. I just went back to using a RS VU-120 thats been in my attic for years and it works fine. Hopefully by this summer this mess will be a non-issue.

Channel 5 runs some of the CBS games and primetime in HD - they seem to get it right from time to time. If you luck out and can get Channel 9 sometime, check out the local news, it looks great in HD...

I'm also using Ubuntu here and its been working excellent.

Good luck,
Ken

Many thanks to all for suggestions on improving my reception.

Another matter: Any ideas as to how to get KRMA (Rocky Mountain PBS) to get a decent digital signal to us up here in the north? Neither sweet talk nor threats (to cancel my membership) has gotten them to give me the slightest hint as to what their migration plans/schedule might be.

Jim

I'm also using Ubuntu here and its been working excellent.

Thanks for your encouraging message! Techwise, we appear to have been separated at birth :-)

Are you using MythTV as your viewing application? If so, how do you tune the silly thing manually? Whenever I run the autoscan, it doesn't pick up so much as a whisper of 22.1, which should be coming through on my antenna's sidelobes...


Jim

I live in Fort Collins on the northwest side of Terry Lake. "Reggie" (who posts as "Audiguy3" on the Denver forum) told me about this forum. Many thanks, Reggie!




Jim McCauley

Jim,

Glad you posted and welcome - this forum gets slow at times - but you can see you spurred some comments.

Now that D* has so many HD channels and their performance with HD on the locals is so good I really don't spend much time with OTA. I also saw D* has signed with PBS to do HD locals and they should be coming online in the next few months if I read the forum correctly

Reggie

Is that lookout Mtn tower still scheduled to come online this spring? When it does, what channels can we expect to get up north? I'm sick of paying $150/mo for Comcast and it's HD channels and dual tuner HD DVRs.

Many thanks to all for suggestions on improving my reception.

Another matter: Any ideas as to how to get KRMA (Rocky Mountain PBS) to get a decent digital signal to us up here in the north? Neither sweet talk nor threats (to cancel my membership) has gotten them to give me the slightest hint as to what their migration plans/schedule might be.

Jim

Unfortunately, it probably isn't going to happen. KRMA will not have a transmitter on Lookout, and their current transmission (from the ice bridge on Mt Morrison) has much of Northern Colorado in a big signal shadow.

As Reggie alluded to, right now it's either cable or sat only. Who is your cable provider in the Terry Lake area? US Cable or Comcast?

Is that lookout Mtn tower still scheduled to come online this spring? When it does, what channels can we expect to get up north? I'm sick of paying $150/mo for Comcast and it's HD channels and dual tuner HD DVRs.

Yes, it's still scheduled for later this year, hopefully before summer. We can "expect" to get everything the Denverites will. Where do you live exactly? Geography really comes into play in this neck of the woods...

Yes, it's still scheduled for later this year, hopefully before summer. We can "expect" to get everything the Denverites will. Where do you live exactly? Geography really comes into play in this neck of the woods...

NW Loveland near the foothills. I'm a bit concerned we may have to build another house closer to I25 to get anything decent but I guess we'll see what happens.

NW Loveland near the foothills.

Have you tried getting any channels OTA? If you can receive KWGN-DT (Channel 2), you should be fine once the Lookout tower comes online.

Have you tried getting any channels OTA? If you can receive KWGN-DT (Channel 2), you should be fine once the Lookout tower comes online.

No, I actually haven't messed with it at all since we built this house. I need to check it out. One of my buddies also said that he gets Comcast HD's simply by plugging the cable into his tuner. I guess, in his case anyway, they didn't block the HD's even though he no longer has cable but gets all the HDs for free. Man, if I could get that deal I would be set. OTAs will be nice but I will miss ESPN, ESPN2, NatGeo, Discovery.... and many more that I just won't get OTA.

Are you using MythTV as your viewing application? If so, how do you tune the silly thing manually? Whenever I run the autoscan, it doesn't pick up so much as a whisper of 22.1, which should be coming through on my antenna's sidelobes...

I was using a windows machine to run the card when I did - but that was a couple of years ago so I'm a bit out of date on the newer pc card stuff.

You should be able to get 22.1 easily, if your not getting any multipath problems. The DTV signals seems to be somewhat sensitive to that.

Ken

The comcast HD you will get is the over the air and not always at that.

No, I actually haven't messed with it at all since we built this house. I need to check it out. One of my buddies also said that he gets Comcast HD's simply by plugging the cable into his tuner. I guess, in his case anyway, they didn't block the HD's even though he no longer has cable but gets all the HDs for free. Man, if I could get that deal I would be set. OTAs will be nice but I will miss ESPN, ESPN2, NatGeo, Discovery.... and many more that I just won't get OTA.

Your buddy must have Internet service through Comcast. They often continue to transmit basic cable, which will include in-the-clear QAM channels (local networks).

Obviously, with OTA, you won't be getting channels like ESPN, etc. The flip-side is that you won't be dealing with potential compression and signal degradation issues through your cable/sat provider.

I have always viewed OTA HD broadcasts as a supplemental thing. I still have sat service to get the other stuff...just not paying the extra $$ for their HD-lite. US Cable (who services my area) still thinks it's 1989, so who knows when they'll start transmitting *anything* in HD. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, it probably isn't going to happen. KRMA will not have a transmitter on Lookout, and their current transmission (from the ice bridge on Mt Morrison) has much of Northern Colorado in a big signal shadow.

Grrrrr. I have been a loyal member of PBS stations in California, Oregon and Colorado for 35 years, and the cold shoulder I am getting from Rocky Mountain PBS is infuriating. Is anyone else pissed off enough at them to join me in causing them some public grief? If I can't get service, maybe I can get the satisfaction of making sure they know what a bunch of jerks they are.

As Reggie alluded to, right now it's either cable or sat only. Who is your cable provider in the Terry Lake area? US Cable or Comcast?

US Cable, a company with firm techological and marketing roots in the 1970s and a corporate vision to match. Sheesh. Have you seen their website? It's a joke! If there's a way to check the channel lineup for my area, I can't find it.

I saw a news article the other day about the prospect for Qwest doing channel-bonding to get higher-speed services, including HD video, into internet distribution. My guess is that Satan and his minions will sponsor the Winter Olympics before we see that service here on the northern outskirts of Fort Collins, where 1.5 Mbit/sec is the highest available DSL speed.

Sorry for the sour tone. I'm in a bad mood. Maybe it's post-holiday letdown...

Jim McCauley

A whole lot of new channels -- most of them untunable on my setup -- appeared on my scan today:

They testing the new tower??

Oops -- "Tab" posts to the thread...

To continue, here is the list of "new untunables" with what little i could get on them via web searches:

1 KUWF: unknown
2 KTVC: RTN affiliate in Eugene OR
3 KQUP: RTN affiliate in Pullman WA
4 WMFQ: unknown
5 WUMN Ku: Univision affiliate in Minneapolis MN
6 KKYK: RTN affiliate in Camden AR
7 KWBF: Fox affiliate in Little Rock AR
8 KDEV-LP: RTN affiliate in Denver/Aurora CO (tunable on my rig as "UNKNOWN11#0")
9 KWKO: unknown
10 WGMU: MyNetworkTV affiliate in Burlington VT
11 WPXS: unknown
13 KUTF: Telefutura affiliate in Logan UT
14 LatTV: Spanish-language network with stations in TX and AZ
15 KCBU: RTN affiliate in Price UT
16 KWBM: MyNetworkTV affiliate in Springfield MO

Also new: "17 DAYSTAR," which does display -- it's a religious channel. Finally, KDVR-DT is showing up on both 22.1 and 31.1. 22.1 is the local source near Fort Collins.

Is anyone else getting these? Or has some transmitter starte spewing out odd metadata?


Jim McCauley

They testing the new tower??

It you mean Lake Cedar's new tower on Lookout Mountain, I doubt it -- it's nowhere near finished. And such a test would be expensive to mount.

More likely it's the tower southwest of Fort Collins from which KDEV-LP originates. I haven't the foggiest idea who is mucking about like this or why. I don't even know who owns the facility or exactly where it is.


Jim McCauley

Grrrrr. I have been a loyal member of PBS stations in California, Oregon and Colorado for 35 years, and the cold shoulder I am getting from Rocky Mountain PBS is infuriating. Is anyone else pissed off enough at them to join me in causing them some public grief? If I can't get service, maybe I can get the satisfaction of making sure they know what a bunch of jerks they are.

It pisses me off every day, when I tune to a crappy, snow-ridden PBS broadcast, then quickly change the channel. KRMA gets no pledge support from this cowboy.


US Cable, a company with firm techological and marketing roots in the 1970s and a corporate vision to match. Sheesh. Have you seen their website? It's a joke! If there's a way to check the channel lineup for my area, I can't find it.

LOL. US Cable "services" my neighborhood as well. Last time I asked them what their timeline is for providing HD broadcasts, they replied, "What's HD?"

Here's a link for their channel line-up, such that it is:

http://fortcollins.uscable.com/corporate/news.php?id=f8d844e9d40db57da2e01d5f3ca1ee34

One consolation: IF they ever provide HD, there should be plenty of in-the-clear QAM.

Sorry for the sour tone. I'm in a bad mood. Maybe it's post-holiday letdown...

No sweat. I've come to grips with the fact that Colorado is still in the dark ages when it comes to DTV...I read more books now. ;)

It you mean Lake Cedar's new tower on Lookout Mountain, I doubt it -- it's nowhere near finished. And such a test would be expensive to mount.

More likely it's the tower southwest of Fort Collins from which KDEV-LP originates. I haven't the foggiest idea who is mucking about like this or why. I don't even know who owns the facility or exactly where it is.


Jim McCauley

I didn't think it was even remotely close but couldn't figure out why a handful of new channels would suddenly pop up.

I'm a late-comer to the DTV game, but I'm hoping to get my act together in time for the SuperBowl.

Could someone confirm for me that KCFT-DT (the Ft. Collins FOX re-transmitter) does HD? I've skimmed the topic here, but I confess that I haven't read everything (and I occasionally get lost between the finer distinctions between "digital TV" and "HD TV" and who's broadcasting what).

Thanks in advance.

You bet it does. I've been watching Terminator: Sarah Conner Chronicals in HD the last few weeks from KCFT-DT and it looks fantastic. Decent tv show, but I think i watch it only to see all the details of HD. hahah

I appreciate the fast response!

Follow-up question for the early-adopter crowd (off-topic, I know, but maybe I get lucky):

My HD set is an older (2001) Toshiba rear-pro CRT with no HD tuner (but very nice picture quality). Did anybody ever put out a reasonably-priced and reasonably-performing stand-alone tuner for all the "HD-Ready" sets that got sold, or am I better served simply buying a new TV?

It pisses me off every day, when I tune to a crappy, snow-ridden PBS broadcast, then quickly change the channel. KRMA gets no pledge support from this cowboy.




LOL. US Cable "services" my neighborhood as well. Last time I asked them what their timeline is for providing HD broadcasts, they replied, "What's HD?"

Here's a link for their channel line-up, such that it is:

http://fortcollins.uscable.com/corporate/news.php?id=f8d844e9d40db57da2e01d5f3ca1ee34

One consolation: IF they ever provide HD, there should be plenty of in-the-clear QAM.



No sweat. I've come to grips with the fact that Colorado is still in the dark ages when it comes to DTV...I read more books now. ;)


US Fable is on my @#$! list. If I could get some other speedy source for broadband I'd switch in an instant. But I got a flier in the mail saying I could sign up for digital cable tv service. I called them to get more details and they said "you got that flier from who?" I told them you mailed it to me. "Oh we don't offer that." :eek::D

We were constantly getting phone calls that they were going to disconnect our service because we hadn't paid (the same thing happened to us when we lived out in Wellington). The bills are processed late in GA, so they gave us a Johnstown address to send our payment to. So now every month we receive a notice that "we have been alerted to the fact you are sending your payment to the local office, please send it to the main US Crap office in GA".

So it really doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't know what HD is. Yes, I'm bitter with that company. :rolleyes:

I appreciate the fast response!

Follow-up question for the early-adopter crowd (off-topic, I know, but maybe I get lucky):

My HD set is an older (2001) Toshiba rear-pro CRT with no HD tuner (but very nice picture quality). Did anybody ever put out a reasonably-priced and reasonably-performing stand-alone tuner for all the "HD-Ready" sets that got sold, or am I better served simply buying a new TV?

I'm in the same boat you are. I have a nice 36" HD CRT that I don't want to let go. I'm using an HDHomeRun OTA networkable device to send the stream to my PVR, that'll keep it around till more stuff is 16:9 and it makes sense to upgrade.

There's a link in the Denver OTA section where you can sign up to receive a coupon for a free tuner when the cut over is made. I have seen tuners online for around $140. I think Bretski has one he might give you a good deal on too :cool:

KDEV-DT is no longer on "UNKNOWN11#0" on my MythTV setup -- it's now sending its station identifier. However, there's still no EIT (program guide) data. Even worse, there is NO SOUND. Previously, the sound was just fine...

More generally, I'm getting fairly strong signals and reliable EIT data from these channels:
2_1 (KWGN-DT, jerky video on my system)
2_2 (KWGN-DT -- but this is a music channel that has been discontinued)
14_1 (KTFD-DT)
31_1 (KDVR DT, jerky video on my system)

I'm getting viewable signal but _no_ EIT data from these:
11_1 (KDEV-DT)
12_1 (KBDI-DT)
12_2 (KBDI-DC)
12_3 (KBDI-WV)
25_1 (KDEN, blocky video on my system)

Are others up here in the north getting similar results?


Jim in Fort Collins

US Fable is on my @#$! list. If I could get some other speedy source for broadband I'd switch in an instant. But I got a flier in the mail saying I could sign up for digital cable tv service. I called them to get more details and they said "you got that flier from who?" I told them you mailed it to me. "Oh we don't offer that." :eek::D

LMAO! Been there too, my friend...

We were constantly getting phone calls that they were going to disconnect our service because we hadn't paid (the same thing happened to us when we lived out in Wellington). The bills are processed late in GA, so they gave us a Johnstown address to send our payment to. So now every month we receive a notice that "we have been alerted to the fact you are sending your payment to the local office, please send it to the main US Crap office in GA".

I had lots of billing problems with them for a while, but have since solved them by paying over the phone every month. Saves me a stamp that way, too.

So it really doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't know what HD is. Yes, I'm bitter with that company. :rolleyes:

Ain't it great living with all the choices? :p

There's a link in the Denver OTA section where you can sign up to receive a coupon for a free tuner when the cut over is made. I have seen tuners online for around $140. I think Bretski has one he might give you a good deal on too :cool:

Sorry, I unloaded the tuner to my brother in exchange for beer. Best part is, he has it hooked up to a little 17"-ish tv. :D

The Echostar unit coming out soon looks to be pretty decent, and it'll be basically free with the coupon.

31_1 (KDVR DT, jerky video on my system)

Are others up here in the north getting similar results?

Jim in Fort Collins

Hey Jim,

I take it you still aren't having luck getting KFCT, then. :(

Have you tried looking on channel 23? For some reason, one of my tuners picks KFCT on that channel. Just a thought...

I take it you still aren't having luck getting KFCT, then. :(

Have you tried looking on channel 23? For some reason, one of my tuners picks KFCT on that channel. Just a thought...

No luck at all. MythTV scans Channel 23 but gets no signal or tables. Fooey.


Jim McCauley

Sound is back on KDEV-DT as of this morning (12 Feb 2008).

No EIT data, though, so I have to do manual programming to record _Have Gun Will Travel_ and _Perry Mason_.


Jim McCauley

More generally, I'm getting fairly strong signals and reliable EIT data from these channels:
2_1 (KWGN-DT, jerky video on my system)
2_2 (KWGN-DT -- but this is a music channel that has been discontinued)
14_1 (KTFD-DT)
31_1 (KDVR DT, jerky video on my system)

I'm getting viewable signal but _no_ EIT data from these:
11_1 (KDEV-DT)
12_1 (KBDI-DT)
12_2 (KBDI-DC)
12_3 (KBDI-WV)
25_1 (KDEN, blocky video on my system)

Are others up here in the north getting similar results?

Jim in Fort Collins

I'm 3/4 mile north of Verns in LaPorte.
Rooftop antenna: Winegard HD9095P UHF Yagi antenna with a Winegard AP-8275 Pre-amp feeding into a Samsung DTB-H260F tuner.
Antenna is aimed directly at Lookout Mountain.

I receive a good stable signal on:
2-1 (About 2/3 strength)
2-2
11-1
14-1
25-1 (Blocky until locked on)
31-1 (About 1/2 strength)

If atmospheric conditions are just right, I get:
6-1 (Weak and very seldom)
6-2 (Weak and very seldom)

These usually are received in the morning.
Republic Plaza is about 12 degrees off axis of antenna.
7-1 (weak but stable)
9-1 (weak but stable)
9-2 (weak but stable)
20-1 (weak but stable)

Channel 12 is an absolute no show because Horestooth Mountain is directly in line and only 7 miles away.

There is a ridge that is 13.5 miles away that is roughly 400 feet higher than line of sight to Lookout.

John

I'm 3/4 mile north of Verns in LaPorte.


Thanks for the data points. Looks like being just a few miles west of Fort Collins makes things pretty tough for a direct view of Lookout. I've been messing with Google Earth views to get some idea of who is blocked from what, and Laporte viewers will definitely face some challenges.


Jim McCauley

Laporte viewers will definitely face some challenges.


Jim McCauley

When we moved here 33 years ago, there wasn't much choice.
I put up the biggest available Winegard VHF antenna with a pre-amp and got the 3 or 4 broadcast channels. People just a couple hundred yards west got nothing and a man 1/4 mile SSE has a 50 ft tower with a VHF/UHF antenna on top. Luckily, I have a pretty good line to LO over the top of Horsetooth Lake.

I feel really fortunate to get UHF signals this far away (64 mi to LO) with the 400 ft ridge in the way of LOS, but it is less than .5 degree deflection. According to Delorme's Topo software, nothing else is in the LOS.

I finally scanned KRMA-DT successfully. I also got the V-me channel on their multiplex. Only 50% signal and _very_ blocky video, but it's a start.

Channel IDs received, but no program name or info.

I too noticed that RMPBS took down its website notice about broadcasting at reduced power. I hope that they are still not yet at Full Authorized...


Jim McCauley

If KRMA-DT is at full power (115 KW ERP) as indicated in the Denver forum - page 78, post 2322, we in the FC area are not in a good position for OTA PBS.
I sent them a message regarding this issue, but do not expect a reply since they have never responded in the past.

John

RMPBS and KRMA in particular are remarkably unresponsive. I've called and sent a letter requesting clarification of the issue of digital signal coverage for Northern Colorado and heard back nothing.

So I'm going to the board meeting on Wednesday, 27 February, at 3:30 PM. The board is supposed to set policy, so I want to know what their policy is on this point. I'm a member, so it's just possible that they might listen to me. Any suggestions?

Location is 1089 Bannock Street in Denver. If anyone wants me to pick them up on my way down from Fort Collins, let me know here.


Jim McCauley

Best of luck, Jim! Hopefully you can raise some awareness regarding NorCO folks, and why they don't get pledges from folks like me. I'd consider going with you, but gotta work.

Frankly, I do not believe KRMA-DT is actually transmitting at 115 kW ERP, regardless of what was submitted to the FCC.

They do not have the signal strength that KUSA-DT (10.9 kW ERP) and KMGH -DT (6.0 kW ERP) have from RP. My Yagi antenna is pointed directly at LO and Mount Morrison is only 1 or 2 degrees off axis of my antenna from my location. I can pick up KUSA & KMGH almost any morning until the atmosphere starts to warm up and RP is 12 degrees off the axis of my antenna. But, I can only get a very weak intermittent signal indication for KRMA_DT and only once, did I actually lock on to them. I also have a much better line-of-sight to MM than RP.

It seems only logical that KRMA-DT (115 kW ERP) should be strong enough for us to lock on to at over 10 times the signal strength of KUSA and KMGH since they are on adjacent actual channels 16, 17, and 18.

John

Frankly, I do not believe KRMA-DT is actually transmitting at 115 kW ERP, regardless of what was submitted to the FCC.

They do not have the signal strength that KUSA-DT (10.9 kW ERP) and KMGH -DT (6.0 kW ERP) have from RP. My Yagi antenna is pointed directly at LO and Mount Morrison is only 1 or 2 degrees off axis of my antenna from my location. I can pick up KUSA & KMGH almost any morning until the atmosphere starts to warm up and RP is 12 degrees off the axis of my antenna. But, I can only get a very weak intermittent signal indication for KRMA_DT and only once, did I actually lock on to them. I also have a much better line-of-sight to MM than RP.

It seems only logical that KRMA-DT (115 kW ERP) should be strong enough for us to lock on to at over 10 times the signal strength of KUSA and KMGH since they are on adjacent actual channels 16, 17, and 18.

John
I have my doubts about KRMA-DT as well, since I've never been able to receive their signal. But according to the FCC, KRMA-DT's transmitter is 57 miles away (from me), versus 50 miles for the Republic Plaza stations. Those 7 extra miles could make a big difference to those of us already near the "cliff". Then again, I can receive KBDI-DT just fine, which is 3 miles further than KRMA-DT (albeit at 1000 kW ;-).

I made a table of current & future transmitters within 60 or so miles -- I'll attach it in case it's useful. A few notes:

The "Net Score" is a unitless number that factors in the transmitter's ERP and distance, as well as the transmitting antenna's relative field strength in my direction (from FCC polar plots). It does *not* factor in transmitter height, potential line-of-sight issues, or the polar plot of my particular antenna.
The scores shaded purple are stations that I don't currently receive or expect to receive (KUSA-DT and KTFD-DT are striped because they're intermittent for me).
Even though KUSA-DT will be vacating ch16 next Feb, I included a line for it in the "after" section because the transmitter will be moving to Lookout around 4/13 (at which point we should be able to receive it reliably).
The other scores in the after section look encouraging for us in NoCo.
The signal from KDEN analog (ch 25 from Longmont) might be swamping the preamps of those of us further east -- its signal for me is 24dB stronger than KRMA-DT's. I've thought of getting a notch filter for that frequency, but at this point I'll just wait for it to shut down next February (another cause for optimism).
The signal from KDVR-DT is one of the lowest in terms of magnitude (only a few dB more than KRMA-DT's), but it's my most reliably received station. What's interesting is that it's the only station using elliptical vs horizontal polarization.

digiphotonerd,

You need to look at your spreadsheet again. I count about 10 errors on the "final" side of it. Some are minor, such as effective date, some are major, such as the digital ERP of KMGH, KUSA, and KBDI - they're all under 40 kW as digital VHF-hi.

Frankly, I do not believe KRMA-DT is actually transmitting at 115 kW ERP, regardless of what was submitted to the FCC.

They do not have the signal strength that KUSA-DT (10.9 kW ERP) and KMGH -DT (6.0 kW ERP) have from RP. My Yagi antenna is pointed directly at LO and Mount Morrison is only 1 or 2 degrees off axis of my antenna from my location. I can pick up KUSA & KMGH almost any morning until the atmosphere starts to warm up and RP is 12 degrees off the axis of my antenna. But, I can only get a very weak intermittent signal indication for KRMA_DT and only once, did I actually lock on to them. I also have a much better line-of-sight to MM than RP.

It seems only logical that KRMA-DT (115 kW ERP) should be strong enough for us to lock on to at over 10 times the signal strength of KUSA and KMGH since they are on adjacent actual channels 16, 17, and 18.

John

Well, I sat down with RMPBS President James Morgese to discuss the viability of KRMA-DT reception. In that meeting he confirmed that it was his belief that the location on the Mt. Morrison icebridge was not going to provide satisfactory OTA digital coverage for much of Northern Colorado -- something that members of this forum had concluded some time ago.

Later, I sat in on the meeting of the RMPBS board and made a brief pitch expressing the concerns of viewers in our area. One of the board members (Paul Bortz) asked Morgese directly if the digital transmitter was operating at full authorized power, the president's response was (according to my notes), "That is my understanding."

Morgese may have answered carefully in this manner because the engineering staff may have had some difficulty with the configuration, as evidenced by the recent website notice about less-that-full-power operation. It's hard for me to imagine why he would risk shading the truth to the board to which he is responsible.

Still, given Jamjar's observation, it's difficult to understand how any combination of fading or multipath could account for the field strength at his location. Even less explicable are reception problems at Highlands Ranch and other spots closer to the Denver Metro area.

After I do a little bit of investigation, I'll have more to report about my meeting with Morgese and the board, including the prospects for translator service here in the north.


Jim McCauley

I hate replying to my own post, but the headline was a boner -- obviously, it should read as the banner to THIS message does. Oy.

More on RMPBS later today.


Jim McCauley

Well, I sat down with RMPBS President James Morgese to discuss the viability of KRMA-DT reception. In that meeting he confirmed that it was his belief that the location on the Mt. Morrison icebridge was not going to provide satisfactory OTA digital coverage for much of Northern Colorado -- something that members of this forum had concluded some time ago.

Later, I sat in on the meeting of the RMPBS board and made a brief pitch expressing the concerns of viewers in our area. One of the board members (Paul Bortz) asked Morgese directly if the digital transmitter was operating at full authorized power, the president's response was (according to my notes), "That is my understanding."

Morgese may have answered carefully in this manner because the engineering staff may have had some difficulty with the configuration, as evidenced by the recent website notice about less-that-full-power operation. It's hard for me to imagine why he would risk shading the truth to the board to which he is responsible.

Still, given Jamjar's observation, it's difficult to understand how any combination of fading or multipath could account for the field strength at his location. Even less explicable are reception problems at Highlands Ranch and other spots closer to the Denver Metro area.

After I do a little bit of investigation, I'll have more to report about my meeting with Morgese and the board, including the prospects for translator service here in the north.


Jim McCauley

Jim
Thanks for the report, it does sound as if your trip was worthwhile and at least some at KRMA believe this is a problem. I'm sure many people are interested in this issue.
I'm not a member of KRMA because analog reception has always been terrible at my location. However my wife has donated a number of framed paintings to their annual auction over the years and I would certainly support them IF we could only get reliable reception.
A translator would be great.

I have been doing some further checking and I get a relatively strong signal from KTFD-DT (200 kW ERP @42 Meters AGL) which is on the same tower as KRMA-DT (115 kW ERP @12 meters AGL). It seems that KRMA has selected a less than ideal antenna position with no real concern regarding coverage for northern CO apparently from Louisville north as indicated by the frustrated folks posting in the Denver forum where there are interesting post regarding this issue just today.

John

I have been doing some further checking and I get a relatively strong signal from KTFD-DT (200 kW ERP @42 Meters AGL) which is on the same tower as KRMA-DT (115 kW ERP @12 meters AGL). It seems that KRMA has selected a less than ideal antenna position with no real concern regarding coverage for northern CO apparently from Louisville north as indicated by the frustrated folks posting in the Denver forum where there are interesting post regarding this issue just today.

I saw the post to the Denver forum. I made a point of asking Morgese if the antenna location was final, and I was very specific in asking about the height. He said that it was, so it looks like the folks in Louisville are, well, screwed.

I don't know anything about the tower or if it would be possible to relocate the antenna to deal with this. I assume that any such move would require recertification, which is probably not in the cards now that the FCC has frozen applications until after the cutover. At least that's what I understand.

In any case, wold increasing the height of the antenna help us up here? I suspect that a relocation might make the FCC take another look at their authorized ERP, and there may also be passband protection issues.


Jim McCauley

...
After I do a little bit of investigation, I'll have more to report about my meeting with Morgese and the board, including the prospects for translator service here in the north....


A translator is kind of a mixed bag. If you KRMA-DT from a translator, and everything else from Denver, you will probably need to constantly re-orient your antenna. And forget watching KRMA on one set, and another Denver channel on another, or using a two-tuner DVR.

Mark

A translator is kind of a mixed bag. If you KRMA-DT from a translator, and everything else from Denver, you will probably need to constantly re-orient your antenna. And forget watching KRMA on one set, and another Denver channel on another, or using a two-tuner DVR.

Potentially a problem for folks on the south end of town. I live way north near Terry Lake, so most Denver channels are about 178 degrees off true north. Horsetooth is only about 38 degrees west of boresight to Lookout Mountain. If I aim right between them, I get a straight shot to Squaw Mountain, where KBDI-DT is located. My guess is that once the post-transition dust settles, I'll be able to get stations from Lookout to Horsetooth without any antenna rotation.

Getting a usable signal from Mount Morrison, where KRMA-DT is located, is not a likely proposition, though.


Jim McCauley

Jim,

I appreciate you taking the time to go to the board meeting, and voicing our collective northern Colorado concerns. Now, let's just hope somebody was really listening. There are a lot of potential members up this way...

To maintain mind-share with RMPBS, it will help to maintain contact with them. Start with this web link:

http://www.rmpbs.org/contact/

Feel free to express your concerns about KRMA-DT's signal availability here in the north. If you are a member, include your membership number.

RMPBS members in Northern Colorado should receive a message from the marketing staff, speaking on behalf of the management and the board. If it's not forthcoming before the next board meeting, I'll show up down there again. This is a matter of the squeaky wheel receiving lubrication.


Jim McCauley

Jamjar-

We have a cabin up by Halligan Resevoir (Phantom Canyon, near Carl Judson's place).

Do you think we will be able to get any digital stations there? I doubt we would get Denver but Ft. Collins may be available. I don't see any info. for Cheyenne/Laramie in the threads so I don't know if they are broadcasting digital yet.

The only station we get so far (on rabbit ears) is the analog station (CBS) from Cheyenne.

Any insight appreciated!

Jamjar-

We have a cabin up by Halligan Resevoir (Phantom Canyon, near Carl Judson's place).

Do you think we will be able to get any digital stations there? I doubt we would get Denver but Ft. Collins may be available. I don't see any info. for Cheyenne/Laramie in the threads so I don't know if they are broadcasting digital yet.

The only station we get so far (on rabbit ears) is the analog station (CBC) from Cheyenne.

Any insight appreciated!

The Phantom Canyon area is pretty rugged, so it depends on where specifically you are located - In a valley or on a ridge top.

You are pretty far west and about 80 miles from the Denver stations with a lot of mountainous terrain to cross. I would think it is a stretch to even consider reception from Denver - Nothing even looks close on coverage plots. I don't think Laramie is possible. KFCT-DT East of Fort Collins looks possible as does KGWN-DT from Cheyenne when I look at the TV Fool coverage plots that you can access and evaluate your location HERE. (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=80) KLWY-DT South of Cheyenne looks really strong to your area once they get up to full power.

If you have an address or coordinates for your location, you can get an estimation of available stations from http://www.tvfool.com/

It really depends on your location and even antenna placement. People 1/4 mile West or South from me get no off air TV.

John

Jamjar-

That is what we thought, probably will have to put up an antenna up on a hill above us to get any reliable reception.

Oh well, we are usually too busy enjoying the private fishing on Halligan and the North Fork of the Poudre to watch much TV!

Jamjar-
Oh well, we are usually too busy enjoying the private fishing on Halligan and the North Fork of the Poudre to watch much TV!

That would be my choice!!!:D

We are using a TERK TV55 to receive a half dozen VHF ATV channels and 2 DTV channels 2_1(KWGN-DT) and 11_1(KDEV-DT) in northeast Longmont.

I would like to add a Terrestrial Digital DB8 in hopes of picking up some of the additional DTV channels my neighbor receives.

Would it work to 'combine' the two antennae with a 'low loss combiner' similar to the one that comes with the DB8?

If so, should I be able to buy a 'low loss combiner' at a place like Radio Shack?

Would it work to 'combine' the two antennae with a 'low loss combiner' similar to the one that comes with the DB8?

Antenna combination, especially of two different models (or even the same model pointed in different directions) is a dicey business. The resulting pattern is not a simple combination of the two separate antennae, because phase and gain differences between the units can cause unexpected cancellations. This can actually result in lower gain overall, especially in the directions of interest.

If so, should I be able to buy a 'low loss combiner' at a place like Radio Shack?

The cheapest experiment would be to use an ordinary splitter backwards -- most reasonable quality units will do the job. The difficult part is matching
the gain and phase of the antennae themselves, but as I said, this is tough even for experts to figure out.

If the reversed-splitter experiment is some kind of success, but you think that you need a higher-quality splitter-combiner, consider some of the units on this web page:

http://search.solidsignal.com/?q=combiner&site=com&new_search=1&I1.x=0&I1.y=0


Jim McCauley

As a result of my visit to KRMA and RMPBS, I learned of a survey that the station has been running from its web site -- don't know how I missed it before. The jump page is here:

http://www.rmpbs.org/dtv

Under the link "Take this survey" near the top of the page. Here is the direct link to the survey:

http://www.questionpro.com/akira/TakeSurvey?id=568120

In the course of taking the survey, you will be asked to supply your zip code as a regional identifier. Later in the survey, there is also a link to antennaweb.org to get a finer read on the likelihood of your ability to receive KRMA-DT and other channels.

When I took the survey and supplied my zip code (80524), I was given a choice of transmitters from which I expected to be able to "see" KRMA-DT. One of the choices was "Denver Metro (Lookout Mountain)". Wishful thinking, perhaps :-)

In any case, after specifying myself as a receiver of the Denver Metro signal, I was greeted with this cheery announcement:

"Congratulations!
You may be able to receive crystal-clear digital and high-definition
television from Rocky Mountain PBS free with your antenna."

The use of the word "may" seems to indicate a degree of uncertainty, no? In fact, I can lock KRMA-DT occasionally, but I cannot get a stable picture, and I think that the same is true for others in my area.

If you are a KRMA-DT viewer or would like to be, please consider taking the survey. The staff is paying attention to the results.


Jim McCauley

Antenna combination, especially of two different models (or even the same model pointed in different directions) is a dicey business. The resulting pattern is not a simple combination of the two separate antennae, because phase and gain differences between the units can cause unexpected cancellations. This can actually result in lower gain overall, especially in the directions of interest.



The cheapest experiment would be to use an ordinary splitter backwards -- most reasonable quality units will do the job. The difficult part is matching
the gain and phase of the antennae themselves, but as I said, this is tough even for experts to figure out.

If the reversed-splitter experiment is some kind of success, but you think that you need a higher-quality splitter-combiner, consider some of the units on this web page:

http://search.solidsignal.com/?q=combiner&site=com&new_search=1&I1.x=0&I1.y=0


Jim McCauley
This is how my experiment turned out:
With my TERK-TV55 and AntennasDirect DB8 installed:

Crisp:
4 KCNC
9 KUSA
12 KBDI
14 KTFD
20 KTVD
25 KDEN
41 KRMT
50 KCEC
53 KWHD
59 KPXC

Snowy:
2 KWGN
6 KRMA
7 KMGH
31 KDVR

Crisp:
2.1 KWGN-DT
14.1 KTFD-DT
25.1 KDEN-DT
31.1 KDVR-DT

The reception for PBS channel 6 was degraded. Someone had suggested that
I 'gang' additional Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner
(capping off the unused UHF inputs)

The COAX connector from the antenna to the 'homerun-videoamp' came off, so
I probably should find some good quality COAX connectors and replace it.
I am not as good at making COAX terminations.

I must be aimed toward LookoutMt and MorrisMt and not RepublicPlaza.

I have been using an RCA amplified rabbit ear setup, mainly because we get most of our stuff off the dish, but I like to check for OTA every once in a while. Lately it's just been 11-1 and 22-1. I did a scan a couple of days ago, and 2-1 popped up. Major surprise, because I can't pick up analog 2 with the current rabbit ears. We only get a couple of analog channels, with the setup, 9 barely comes in... well, seeing 2-1 excited me, so I went and got an antenna to put in the attic. What a pain... haha... but I did get it hooked up, and scanned, and with the new antenna... no 2-1 but analog 2 shows up. The new antenna gets 2 4 5 6 (no 7) 9 12 and some other UHF channels so that's alright. In the DTV side of it, it gets 11-1 22-1 and 2 spanish language channels.

I guess I said all of this to ask, why would 2-1 be showing up on the rabbit ears... and not on a big antenna?? It's coming in at a 50 and 22-1 is in the upper 70's for signal strength, on the rabbit ears. I think the next move will be to move the antenna to the roof. Our house sits at a strange angle, so I'm not exactly sure about the direction, I think I probably need to try and point it a bit more west.

And why isn't 7 coming in?

Thanks for any input,
Ken

The new antenna gets 2 4 5 6 (no 7) 9 12 and some other UHF channels so that's alright. In the DTV side of it, it gets 11-1 22-1 and 2 spanish language channels.

Try putting your locale into http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx and see what results you get.


Jim McCauley

I have been using an RCA amplified rabbit ear setup, mainly because we get most of our stuff off the dish, but I like to check for OTA every once in a while. Lately it's just been 11-1 and 22-1. I did a scan a couple of days ago, and 2-1 popped up. Major surprise, because I can't pick up analog 2 with the current rabbit ears. We only get a couple of analog channels, with the setup, 9 barely comes in... well, seeing 2-1 excited me, so I went and got an antenna to put in the attic. What a pain... haha... but I did get it hooked up, and scanned, and with the new antenna... no 2-1 but analog 2 shows up. The new antenna gets 2 4 5 6 (no 7) 9 12 and some other UHF channels so that's alright. In the DTV side of it, it gets 11-1 22-1 and 2 spanish language channels.

I guess I said all of this to ask, why would 2-1 be showing up on the rabbit ears... and not on a big antenna?? It's coming in at a 50 and 22-1 is in the upper 70's for signal strength, on the rabbit ears. I think the next move will be to move the antenna to the roof. Our house sits at a strange angle, so I'm not exactly sure about the direction, I think I probably need to try and point it a bit more west.

And why isn't 7 coming in?

Thanks for any input,
Ken

34 = 2.1 KWGN-DT is on Lookout Mt and is UHF(34) I also think they are at 'full strength'. You might also get 32 = 31.1 KDVR-DT which is also on Lookout Mt.

35 = 4.1 KCNC-DT RepublicPlaza
17>7=7.1 KMGH-DT RepublicPlaza
16>9=9.1 KUSA-DT RepublicPlaza
19 = 20.1 KTVD-DT RepublicPlaza
are all on Republic Plaza (which is downtown Denver) at reduced power. They may be moving to Lookout Mt near April 14 ???

I get most of this information from:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=793003&page=87
Local HDTV Info and Reception
Denver, CO - OTA

34 = 2.1 KWGN-DT is on Lookout Mt and is UHF(34) I also think they are at 'full strength'. You might also get 32 = 31.1 KDVR-DT which is also on Lookout Mt.

35 = 4.1 KCNC-DT RepublicPlaza
17>7=7.1 KMGH-DT RepublicPlaza
16>9=9.1 KUSA-DT RepublicPlaza
19 = 20.1 KTVD-DT RepublicPlaza
are all on Republic Plaza (which is downtown Denver) at reduced power. They may be moving to Lookout Mt near April 14 ???

I get most of this information from:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=793003&page=87
Local HDTV Info and Reception
Denver, CO - OTA

This just came up on the Denver...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=793003&page=88
AVS Forum > HDTV > Local HDTV Info and Reception
Denver, CO - OTA
#2612
Mt. Morrison HOT HOT HOT-UPDATE ! ! ! ! !
3-0 YES! Vote, Mt. Morrison Option B tower to go forward. Morgese, Carney and Hislop, all in attendance. Meeting was about 2 and half hrs, McCasky had a few questions, but other than that......

My interpretation: If you can receive 15 = 14.1 KTFD-DT from MtMorrison, you should be able to, sometime, receive PBS 18 = 6.1 KRMA-DT from MtMorrison. They have been broadcasting at low power with their antenna mounted near the ground. I believe the results of this morning's meeting indicate they will have an antenna up on the tower at Mt Morrison sometime!

Thanks for the update.

I noticed that the channel line-up got shuffled recently. Checking the information channel, they have announced that HD will be broadcast soon, and digital subscribers will need a new converter box.

They don't give a specific date (at least from what I saw), but I get the feeling it'll be fairly soon. US Cable recently did a bunch of fiber upgrades--I know because I suffered several internet outages. :mad:

In the clear QAM? Who knows? This *is* US Cable we're talking about. Don't hold your breath.

Stay tuned...

Whoa, that is great news if US Fable steps into the digital age.

The outages must have been during the day?

Outages were a mix of day and nighttime. Worst was about 2.5 weeks ago, when I was down for 12 hours. Not good when you're a telecommuter.

I ran a channel scan last night, and about 20 new digital music stations popped up, along with a few scrambled channels.

Got my CECB coupons, marched down to Circuit City and picked up a Zenith DTT900 (despite questions about its audio decoder performance). Plugged it into my 20" RCA set downstairs and went through the (very simple) setup procedure.

I get clear pictures and good sound from:

KWGN-DT
KDEV-DT
KTFD-DT
KDEN-DT
KDVR-DT
KBDI-DT
KBDI-DC
KBDI-WV
DAYSTAR

Pictures occasionally break up, but not often enough to be irritating. Sound is very good, even on Dolby 5.1 network broadcasts.

I get marginal signals on digital channels 18, 21 and 22. Images never stabilize on these channels.

For some reason, the DAYSTAR signal is accompanied by a fifteen channels of erroneous metadata for which there are no associated broadcast signals. I just deleted Channel 40 content altogether, which is very easy to do in the Zenith interface.

I get very weak signals that register in the "Bad" range of the simple signal meter on 16, 17 and 30.

This is similar performance to my PC tuner card, although I get smoother rendering for KWGN-DT and KDRV-DT on the Zenith box than I ever got on the computer.

The tuner is now attached to a 27" Zenith TV and still delivering good pictures. It was not necessary to repeat the setup procedure when I moved the box.

All in all, a good purchase. It will be my "alert system" that will let me know when it is actually worthwhile to buy a digital television.


Jim McCauley

Jim,

I posted some comments on your reception report on the Denver OTA thread.

Got my CECB coupons, marched down to Circuit City and picked up a Zenith DTT900 (despite questions about its audio decoder performance). Plugged it into my 20" RCA set downstairs and went through the (very simple) setup procedure.

I get clear pictures and good sound from:

KWGN-DT
KDEV-DT
KTFD-DT
KDEN-DT
KDVR-DT
KBDI-DT
KBDI-DC
KBDI-WV
DAYSTAR

Pictures occasionally break up, but not often enough to be irritating. Sound is very good, even on Dolby 5.1 network broadcasts.

I get marginal signals on digital channels 18, 21 and 22. Images never stabilize on these channels.

For some reason, the DAYSTAR signal is accompanied by a fifteen channels of erroneous metadata for which there are no associated broadcast signals. I just deleted Channel 40 content altogether, which is very easy to do in the Zenith interface.

I get very weak signals that register in the "Bad" range of the simple signal meter on 16, 17 and 30.

This is similar performance to my PC tuner card, although I get smoother rendering for KWGN-DT and KDRV-DT on the Zenith box than I ever got on the computer.

The tuner is now attached to a 27" Zenith TV and still delivering good pictures. It was not necessary to repeat the setup procedure when I moved the box.

All in all, a good purchase. It will be my "alert system" that will let me know when it is actually worthwhile to buy a digital television.


Jim McCauley

We are in North East Longmont. Your reception is similar but better than ours. We do not receive KBDI-D_ at all, nor do we receive KMRA-DT. We do receive most of the analog signals. We watch KMRA and KBDI regularly. How is your Zenith DTT900 CECB handling the analog signals? 'Analog Pass Through' or some analog 'solution' is important to us until KBDI-D_ improves their signal, KMRA-DT moves their antenna up off the ice-bridge and the Denver stations move their antennae to Lookout Mountain.

Also what is DAYSTAR?

Daystar is the second largest religious network in the United States. They own a number of stations (mostly on non-commercial frequencies, the same ones used for PBS) throughout the US, and in a lot of places I don't think they even have digital signals on the air yet (though I'd have to check that). Those that are on the air just are a single standard 480i stream.

- Trip

We are in North East Longmont. Your reception is similar but better than ours. We do not receive KBDI-D_ at all, nor do we receive KMRA-DT. We do receive most of the analog signals.

Folks in Longmont seem to have numerous troubles with reception from either PBS affiliate.

How is your Zenith DTT900 CECB handling the analog signals?

Since the unit has no "analog pass-through," I just plugged it into the "Line 1" input of my VCR. As far as I can tell, this is a "no signal loss" solution, whereas splitting might be problematical for fringe signals. It also makes it possible for me to watch and record (on cruddy but reliable VHS) digital programs.


Jim McCauley

Folks in Longmont seem to have numerous troubles with reception from either PBS affiliate.



Since the unit has no "analog pass-through," I just plugged it into the "Line 1" input of my VCR. As far as I can tell, this is a "no signal loss" solution, whereas splitting might be problematical for fringe signals. It also makes it possible for me to watch and record (on cruddy but reliable VHS) digital programs.


Jim McCauley

Is your reception of Analog Stations ( ) Same, ( ) Better, ( ) Worse than without (prior to installing) your Zenith DTT900 CECB? I am really trying to be sure I understand this result.

Is your reception of Analog Stations ( ) Same, ( ) Better, ( ) Worse than without (prior to installing) your Zenith DTT900 CECB? I am really trying to be sure I understand this result.

Reception is the same, but I should clarify: I use the VCR only to play back tapes -- I no longer use its built-in NTSC tuner. So I simply unscrewed the coax from the antenna and put it onto the Zenith CECB, thereby keeping the splitting load exactly as it had been before. Result: no additional signal loss.

The signal had always been run through a three-way splitter:

TV | VCR | FM tuner

Now it's this:

TV | CECB | FM Tuner

Reception of NTSC signals by the TV is unaffected by the substitution of the CECB for the VCR. Nor has there been any effect on FM reception.


Jim McCauley

This morning, my weekly scan picked up a new channel, KWHD-DT (53-1) on digital channel 46 on both my PC and my Zenith DTT900. This is a religious channel affiliated with LeSEA Broadcasting (Lester Sumrall Evangelistic Association), also known as World Harvest Television.

Other news: I got a lock (but no decodable signal) for KUSA-DT (9-1 and 9-2) on digital channel 16 and on KGMH-DT (7-1) on digital channel 17. This is the first time that either of these has appeared on any of my scans.

I also got a lock on digital channel 51, but no decodable signal. I have no station information for this channel.

Still no signal at all from digital channel 18 (RMPBS) at least during the daytime.


Jim McCauley

Channel 51 (50-1) is KCEC, a Spanish language station.

While paying my bill this morning, I inquired about when HD might be available. The CS rep said that they should have plans, cost, etc. available next Monday.

We shall see...

Anyone know what stations (if any) are broadcasting TVGOS data here in Northern CO?

I have not found tvgos on any OTA in Northern Co. However over on the Denver OTA the claim is that CBS HD has the stream running and as soon as the power increases on lookout mountain (two weeks is the current estimate). Then we will have the tvgos data.

Thanks, colofan. My assumption was that KCNC (since it's a CBS O&O station) had it running. Was looking for something in the interim...guess I'll just have to continue to be patient for the Lookout Mt transmitter. Feels like I'm waiting for Godot...

...guess I'll just have to continue to be patient for the Lookout Mt transmitter. Feels like I'm waiting for Godot...

Godot may just show up. Word on the Denver DTV forum is that LO goes live at noon on Sunday. How true this is will be known at 12:00:01 PM, I guess.

Whatever happens, I post a Fort Collins reception report promptly.


Jim McCauley

KDEV-DT, the Retro Television Network affiliate that broadcasts from Horsetooth Mountain southwest of Fort Collins, is pushing out EIT (program schedule) data that appears to be describing an ABC affiliate -- but not KGMH. As the kids say these days: WTF?

Jim McCauley

I've observed KDEV putting out info at various times from Buffalo and NE Ohio RTN affiliates, along with Fox program info although I couldn't ID where the Fox info was coming from. They don't have a clue.

KDEV used to be KKTU-33, ABC for Cheyenne.

Since the feed for KDEV comes over a satellite dish from Little Rock, it's easy enough for them to get mixed up. Especially given the budget Equity has.

- Trip

Posted by Trip:
Since the feed for KDEV comes over a satellite dish from Little Rock, it's easy enough for them to get mixed up. Especially given the budget Equity has.
The problem with KDEV is that they NEVER get it right. I don't believe Equity creates a program guide for KDEV. I've never seen one unique for KDEV. They still re-map to 11-1, their transmit channel, rather than 33-1, their analog channel. And it's not like KDEV is unique in the sense that they get their feed via satellite. I don't think Equity gets its feeds mixed up, they just don't put any effort into their operation.

Does Equity even have local people? As far as I know, most of their stations are run almost 100% from Little Rock.

I agree with you though, what little I've seen of Equity doesn't make me feel terribly good about their operation. They cut corners wherever they can and end up with a bunch of low-quality, low-value stations.

- Trip

They cut corners wherever they can and end up with a bunch of low-quality, low-value stations.

That's true enough, but I have to admit that for all its shortcomings, KDEV-DT is for me something of a guilty pleasure. I enjoy watching the recordings I make of _Have Gun, Will Travel_ and _Perry Mason_, even though the image quality is often fairly poor. Takes me back...


Jim McCauley

I agree as I like to watch Wild, Wild, West, Hawaii Five-O, and once in a while, Perry Mason on KDEV.

AFAIK, KDEV does not have any local people on site, at least not anyone you can contact. They probably have to have someone baby sit the transmitter site, but the only way I've contacted them is emailing their attorney of record on their FCC apps. I never get a reply, but at least they know I'm out there.

Received in Fort Collins today:

Digital-------Call---------Mapped------Received
channel-----Sign---------Channel-------Quality

--11------KDEV-DT--------11-1-------Excellent
--15------KTFD-DT--------14-1-------Break-ups
--16------KUSA-DT---------9-1-------Excellent
--16------Weather---------9-2--------Excellent
--17------KMGH-HD--------7-1--------Excellent
--19------KTVD-DT--------20-1-------Excellent
--29------KDEN-DT--------25-1-------Break-ups
--32------KDVR DT--------31-1-------Excellent
--34------KWGN-DT--------2-1-------Excellent
--34------KWGN-DT--------2-2-------Discontinued music service
--35------KCNC-DT---------4-1-------Excellent
--38------KBDI-DT--------12-1-------Generally fine; a few break-ups
--38------KBDI-DC--------12-2-------Generally fine; a few break-ups
--38------KBDI-WV-------12-3-------Generally fine; a few break-ups

On the whole, very satisfactory. Me, I'm gettin' a beer. When's the BBQ?

As expected, though, KRMA remains absent, since it is not on LOM.

Also odd: on the computer-based receiver, which runs MythTV under Linux, I got a carrier on digital channel 21, but could not lock to receive. I think that this is KFCT-DT, which is off-beam of my highly directional antenna.

I also got carriers from digital channels 40 and 46, but no decodable signal.


Jim McCauley

^ Thanks for the update, Jim. I didn't have time to run through the 10,000 new posts in the Denver thread. ;)

I probably won't have a chance to get the antenna re-pointed before Thursday, but I'm glad to hear that Godot decided to show up!!!

Received in Fort Collins today:

Digital-------Call---------Mapped------Received
channel-----Sign---------Channel-------Quality

--11------KDEV-DT--------11-1-------Excellent
--15------KTFD-DT--------14-1-------Break-ups
--16------KUSA-DT---------9-1-------Excellent
--16------Weather---------9-2--------Excellent
--17------KMGH-HD--------7-1--------Excellent
--19------KTVD-DT--------20-1-------Excellent
--29------KDEN-DT--------25-1-------Break-ups
--32------KDVR DT--------31-1-------Excellent
--34------KWGN-DT--------2-1-------Excellent
--34------KWGN-DT--------2-2-------Discontinued music service
--35------KCNC-DT---------4-1-------Excellent
--38------KBDI-DT--------12-1-------Generally fine; a few break-ups
--38------KBDI-DC--------12-2-------Generally fine; a few break-ups
--38------KBDI-WV-------12-3-------Generally fine; a few break-ups

Jim McCauley

About 4 miles West from Jim, I'm receiving the following:
I'll borrow Jims format.

--11------KDEV-DT--------11-1-------Excellent Strongest signal
--15------KTFD-DT--------14-1-------Excellent
--16------KUSA-DT---------9-1-------Excellent
--16------Weather---------9-2--------Excellent
--17------KMGH-HD--------7-1--------Excellent
--19------KTVD-DT--------20-1-------Excellent 3rd strongest signal
--29------KDEN-DT--------25-1-------Good - takes 15 seconds to lock in
--30------KGWN-DT--------5-1-------good - breaks up at times
--30------KGWN-FC--------5-2-------good - breaks up at times
--32------KDVR DT--------31-1-------Excellent
--34------KWGN-DT--------2-1-------Excellent 2nd strongest signal
--34------KWGN-DT--------2-2-------Discontinued music service
--35------KCNC-DT---------4-1-------Excellent

Channels 16/ 9.# are the weakest from the new tower with 4 & 7 coming in about the same as Fox 31. Channel 20 is the strongest from the tower with a signal between Channels 2 & 31.

The KDEV transmitter is LOS 7 miles from my house and almost directly in line with LOM.

My Yagi antenna is pointed just slightly east of LOM, so the 5.# channels have to be coming in off the back of the antenna and would probably be very strong if I turned it to face the Cheyenne tower about 35 miles away. The 30/5.#s come in strong most of the time, but fade completely out at other times.

I have not seen KRMA at all since the weather warmed up.

KBDI doesn't come in here, however, I do get a carrier so maybe I will get that when they go to channel 13 next year.

For grins, I stuck my old RatShack yagi in the umbrella stand on my deck. Pointed southerly, I am picking up all the LOM stations with good signal strength. 11-1 also comes in great, since it's only a few miles from my house. :D

As expected, absolutely nothing for KRMA-DT. :rolleyes:

It'd be great to get KBDI, maybe I'll get lucky with the attic-mount. That will have to wait until later in the week, though.

KFCT-DT (which repeats KDVR-DT programming) comes in pretty shakily for me here on the north side of Fort Collins. The station transmits on digital channel 21 and maps to 22-1.

The FCC documents (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=125) indicate that they have Special Temporary Authority to transmit digitally at 0.88 kW ERP. They also have a Construction Permit for eventual operation at a megawatt. The signal levels I get here indicate that they are probably still at low power.

What are the rest of you seeing?


Jim McCauley

Jim,

I get very good signal on KFCT down in my basement using a silver sensor antenna. (Pointed somewhat east-by-southeasterly gets it up in the 80-90% signal strength range). For reference, I'm on the NW side of town.

With my ratshack yagi, I don't see it if I'm pointed toward LOM. With the attic-mounted 4221...well...I still haven't gotten up to the attic to re-point it toward LOM. There's a pretty good chance I'll pull it in, though, as that antenna has a wide reception range. It's much less directional than a 4228.

KFCT-DT (which repeats KDVR-DT programming) comes in pretty shakily for me here on the north side of Fort Collins. The station transmits on digital channel 21 and maps to 22-1.

What are the rest of you seeing?


Jim McCauley

I have never tried to get KFCT since I get KDVR very reliably. I have a 100+ foot ridge east of me less than 0.2 miles away and then there is some ground just east of Cobb Lake at 5325 elevation that is probably just about the elevation of their antenna to further complicate things. I have always had very poor reception of their analog signal (even worse than KRMA analog), so my thought is that it wouldn't be worthwhile to try for their digital signal.

So I missed the Big Day as I was travelling, but I finally got to look today
at what I can get with my setup in south Fort Collins. The answer: nothing
more than I could get before. I still get locks on KFCT-22, KGWN from
Cheyenne and sometimes KDEN 25. KDEV is on the wrong side of the
house to get right now.

Now, this is not surprising - my setup has an unamplified Silver Sensor in
my family room, and a not-very-effective Radio Shack VU-120R in the attic
that might have metal beams in the way. I have nothing outside yet.

I'm in the Landings near Warren Lake, southeast of Horsetooth and
JFK Parkway, just slightly northeast of the post office. My tuner is a
Dish 942. I'm looking at a CM-4228 since I think I can put it on an
exterior wall or the side of my chimney. Should I order a preamp as
well, or is the signal likely good enough? And does anyone know of
either a relatively local source for the CM-4228 or have one they'd
like to sell me?

Rob T

Should I order a preamp as
well, or is the signal likely good enough?

Buy and set up the antenna first. You may not need the preamp unless you have a long cable run or are doing a fair amount of signal splitting.


Jim McCauley

Rob,

I sincerely doubt that you'd need a preamp for the 4228. That antenna has a lot of gain. Unless, like Jim said, you have a really long cable run. I don't know of anyone in NorCo selling them, so you have to order online. Keep in mind that shipping will be significant, the box it comes in is big.

And does anyone know of
either a relatively local source for the CM-4228 or have one they'd
like to sell me?

Rob T

Here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13878756&postcount=3205) is a person in the Denver Are that may have one.

Having lived with two models of coupon-eligible converter boxes for several weeks now, I feel confident in making some recommendations.

The Zenith DTT900 is an excellent unit, especially for our fringe-area situation. It's easy to set up, its tuner is particularly sensitive, and it has nice features for adding marginal channels or dropping ones in which you aren't interested. Others have noted something amiss with this unit's audio decoder -- harsh sibilant sounds occasionally coming from the left channel during Dolby Digital 5.1 broadcasts -- but I have yet to hear anything wrong. But then, with my age-related hearing loss, I simply may no longer be able to detect such things.

The RCA DTA800B has some nice features, like a summary Now/Next program guide that lets you see what's on several channels as once and a pop-out stand that enables vertical mounting. Its best feature is an audible signal-strength meter, which is handy for re-orienting your antenna -- the stronger the signal, the higher the pitch. Unfortunately, its tuner seems to be significantly less sensitive than the one in the Zenith, because stations like the KBDI multiplex break up much more often on the RCA than on the Zenith.

Both units offer good picture and sound. However, the Zenith appears to have a higher tolerance for incorrect PSIP data -- the information that tells your DTV system about the transmitting station. In our area, KDEV-DT (11-1 and 11-2) is particularly bad about this. Both CECBs were decoding KDEV-DT until the dingalings at Equity Media changed the streams last week, but since then, the Zenith has been able to get past that hiccup -- even detecting the added sub-channel successfully without a re-scan -- but the RCA can't even scan the station any more.

So of these two units, I'd recommend the Zenith DTT900 for Northern Colorado viewers, at least until the digital transmitters come to full power after the transition next February -- and until all stations (KDEV-DT especially) get their act together technically.

Please note that the Insignia NS-DXA1, sold through Best Buy, appears to be substantially identical to the Zenith DTT900.


Jim McCauley

Buy and set up the antenna first. You may not need the preamp unless you have a long cable run or are doing a fair amount of signal splitting.

Thanks, Jim. I'm probably putting the antenna on my chimney and
diplexing it into a satellite line and de-diplexing it out to just my one
tuner. I could see setting up a set somewhere else later, or getting a
DVD recorder with an ATSC tuner, but that's a good ways off.

I don't know of anyone in NorCo selling them, so you have to order online. Keep in mind that shipping will be significant, the box it comes in is big.

Got it. Solid Signal can get it one here for $80, which isn't too bad
in my books.

[...]diplexing it into a satellite line and de-diplexing it out to just my one tuner.

Good luck. I don't know how "lossy" diplexing is, so you may want to be sure that you can put an antenna preamp inline _before_ the diplexer. Can the diplexed line carry power to a VHF/UHF preamp? If not, running power to the preamp may be problematical and expensive.


Jim McCauley

Got it. Solid Signal can get it one here for $80, which isn't too bad
in my books.

Try Warren Electronics, too. If you call them, they'll give you a shipping quote.

I just posted this to the Denver thread and was referred to this thread by Reggie in Ft. Collins (thx). The Cliff Notes version: I was getting KUSA 9 HD great (75% signal strength) until a week ago. Now tweaked to up my signal strength to 88% but no signal lock. Jim H

I discovered this board yesterday and I have a similar problem. I have a Pan PX4250U TV, and a RS VU-90 mounted on a 5 ft mast on my chimney on the high end of a tri-level house (about 20+ft above ground). I bought the antenna on Sunday the LOM tower went live. I had cheapo cable with HD @ $25 mo and was waiting to get rid of the cable card. I'm using the cable that runs into the house from the grounding connector. From the connector, I can reach my antenna with a 25 ft RG-6 cable. I disconnected the cable from the wall outlet and pulled the extra to reach a plug I installed in a closet to power the TV/Home theater. I'm using the plug in the wall Monster surge 200 and the output was fed to the TV using a 3 ft RG-59 cable.
I got signal from 2, 4, 7, 9, 11, 12, 20, 31. I'm omitting the ones I don't care about. 9 was the lowest @ 75%. 7 was 88, 4 was 92, and 2 was 96.

About a week ago 9 went away. I brought it in on the analog 9 when the 9-1 and 9-2 failed. I replaced the RG-59 cable to the TV with a 10 ft RG-6 and got the 9 signal up to 88 on the meter, but all I still get on 9-1, 9-2 and also sometimes 11-1, 11-2 is "Poor signal quality."

I've been able to get an HD signal on 4 even with a signal in the 50's (with the antenna sitting on the roof), so I know 88 should get me a great 9 signal.

I've wondered if an amplifier/splitter would help. I did install a cheapo 2 way splitter so I could hook up FM on the Denon 5.1 receiver. Of course, that dropped my signal on all channels, but it hasn't affected the picture losing a few dbs. But I thought since I want the FM (mostly KCBO), I'm willing to spend a few bucks. The Pana is the only TV we own. I have a nice stereo in another room that only plays CDs, so I only need the 2-way splitter down in the lower level TV room. For my situation, should I buy a better one or will the $20 variety do?

I believe the amp/splitter is a different issue from my 9 woes. I've read all the posts on this topic, and can't figure out why my signal meter is strong, but I still get the message with no signal. Do I really need a better antenna. Based on antenna web and TV Fool, all the signals should be in the green zone if I remember correctly. But I do recall several posts talking about this interim period we're in. Does this mean, the signals we have are fixed until Feb 09?
Nineless in Loveland

Jim

I do think you need an amp - suggest you look at this one:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=03&CAT=&PROD=ANC7777
or this one:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=03&CAT=&PROD=SAP8275

Reggie

Can the diplexed line carry power to a VHF/UHF preamp? If not, running power to the preamp may be problematical and expensive.

Hmmm, good question - I don't know. Maybe I should take that as a signal to run a dedicated line.

I picked up a CM-4228 yesterday from an avsforum member at a good price, and I'm itching to try it out :-) I don't know when I will get time to do that, but I'm going to hold off on a permanent install until we get a lanscaping proposal through the HOA (why taunt them, I figure). But I think I'll try to take it outside at ground level and see what I can see. Wish me luck!

I tweaked my attic DB8 antenna:

(34) 2.1 KWGN-DT 100
(35) 4.1 KCNC-DT 79
(17) 7.1 KMGH-DT 97
(16) 9.1 KUSA-DT 77
(19)20.1 KTVD-DT 100
(32)31.1 KDVR-DT 93
Signals from Lookout Mountain are all clear

The signal from Squaw Mountain is clear:
(38)12.1 KBDI-DTV 65

From Mount Morrison I can pick up:
(15)14.1 KTFD-DT 86
but not:
(18) 6.1 KRMA-DT 0

Finally we can get PBS KBDI-DTV 12.1, 12.2, 12.3 !

That leaves 6 KMRA-DTV still ZERO

I picked up a CM-4228 yesterday from an avsforum member at a good price, and I'm itching to try it out :-)

So I tried this out the other day, but didn't have enough cable to make it all the way to my receiver. Instead, I lugged a 9" portable out in the front yard and leaned the CM-4228+booster against a tree to see what I could get. I was very pleased to see that I got virtually perfect signals from KDVR-31 on Mt. Morrison and KTVD-20 from Lookout, plus a few others.

One thing - I was surprised to not really get anything at all in the high VHF with this unit. I couldn't see 7, 9 or 12 at all, despite tweaks. How much should I expect? That makes me not look forward to ABC and NBC switch to VHF again next February.

Rob T

So I tried this out the other day, but didn't have enough cable to make it all the way to my receiver. Instead, I lugged a 9" portable out in the front yard and leaned the CM-4228+booster against a tree to see what I could get. I was very pleased to see that I got virtually perfect signals from KDVR-31 on Mt. Morrison and KTVD-20 from Lookout, plus a few others.

One thing - I was surprised to not really get anything at all in the high VHF with this unit. I couldn't see 7, 9 or 12 at all, despite tweaks. How much should I expect? That makes me not look forward to ABC and NBC switch to VHF again next February.

Rob T

You may need to aim a little further west to get 12.

KTVD-20 is UHF-19, KMGH-7 us UHF-17, KUSA-9 is UHF-16

I wonder if your amplifier is filtering out the lower UHF frequencies?

[...] leaned the CM-4228+booster against a tree to see what I could get.

Here's a counterintuitive idea that might help: try taking the booster amplifier OUT of the transmission line. Believe it of not, that sometimes helps. What really matters is not the amount of absolute signal level, but the ratio of the signal to the noise. Some amplifiers insert an unhelpful amount of noise.

If you don't mind saying, where in the Fort Collins area do you live? I live north of Terry Lake, and my digital reception of all the Denver channels (with the irritating exception of the KRMA-DT multiplex) is excellent, even in today's unpromising weather.


Jim McCauley

I finally got around to tweaking the attic antenna last night. To my amazement, I got a lock on KRMA. The signal is not strong, but it's solid. If anything, I credit the 4th-gen LG tuner. I'm sure the Sony tuner wouldn't pull it in, but maybe I'll try hooking it up to see what happens...

You may need to aim a little further west to get 12.

KTVD-20 is UHF-19, KMGH-7 us UHF-17, KUSA-9 is UHF-16

I wonder if your amplifier is filtering out the lower UHF frequencies?

Nope - I was using an analog-only TV for this test. I got perfect reception of KTFD 14 (Telefutura) as well, so I expect all the digital stuff will work when I get enough RG-6 :-) Really just wondering about VHF-hi with the 4228.

Here's a counterintuitive idea that might help: try taking the booster amplifier OUT of the transmission line. Believe it of not, that sometimes helps. What really matters is not the amount of absolute signal level, but the ratio of the signal to the noise. Some amplifiers insert an unhelpful amount of noise.

Understood - I'll keep that in mind. I did try a pass without the booster, and it did seem to help rather than hurt when I could tell a difference.


If you don't mind saying, where in the Fort Collins area do you live? I live north of Terry Lake, and my digital reception of all the Denver channels (with the irritating exception of the KRMA-DT multiplex) is excellent, even in today's unpromising weather.
Jim McCauley

Sounds good. I'm in The Landings, just southeast of Horsetooth and Landings, and just northeast of the post office. I'm not on the highest ground, but I expect I'll get the Lookout signals well from my rooftop.

Really just wondering about VHF-hi with the 4228.

The 4228 is not a good VHF antenna. Period. Its strength is distant UHF. Yagi-style antennas are a good compromise. They are designed mainly for UHF, but also do a decent job with VHF. When I was playing in the attic yesterday, I took my little RatShack U-75R up just as a "what the heck". It pulled-in all the analog VHF stuff from Denver, nice and clear (as well as the UHF DTV channels, even KRMA).

I'm confident that it'll make a fine replacement/supplement for my 4221, if necessary, come next February. Best part: it is relatively small, and only costs $30.

Ironically the 4228 isn't to bad on channel 7 and 9. Check out the link :
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

They have a chart on using that antenna in the High VHF range. Not as good as a VHF antenna but a lot better than rabbit ears.

I've read that chart before, thanks for the reminder. The point I was trying to make is not to expect too much from the 4228 in the VHF world. It was designed as a UHF beast. :)

Ironically the 4228 isn't to bad on channel 7 and 9. Check out the link :
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

They have a chart on using that antenna in the High VHF range. Not as good as a VHF antenna but a lot better than rabbit ears.

I've seen that - but it doesn't jive with what I saw the other day. I didn't even get snowy analog on my front lawn, and an old Yagi in the attic gets me more than that.

Now I was using a UHF amp most of the time - I wonder if it's a filter at VHF?

Now I was using a UHF amp most of the time - I wonder if it's a filter at VHF?

It almost certainly is.


Jim McCauley

Hi All,

I've read the posts since Lookout Mountain started transmitting and I can't say I've got a clear picture of the best antenna for Fort Collins.

It sounds like the Channel Master 4228 is popular, with some people using generic Yagi antennae. I looked around solidsignal.com, amazon.com (for the reviews), and hdtvprimer.com (information on antennae gain) and I think I have a choice that looks good on paper.

The Antennas Direct DB4 UHF HDTV Antenna is not as ungainly as the 4228 and it is at a similar price point. It should fit into an attic without requiring dissassembly/reassembly. The reviews on Amazon talk about being able to receive clear HD from 75 miles away (don't know about relative tower signal strength.)

The DB4 does have a disturbing drop-off in gain at the bottom of the UHF band according to hdtvprimer.com. Do you think this is real? Is the CM 4228 really the only way to go in Fort Collins?

Thanks,


Dave

Hi All,

I've read the posts since Lookout Mountain started transmitting and I can't say I've got a clear picture of the best antenna for Fort Collins.

It sounds like the Channel Master 4228 is popular, with some people using generic Yagi antennae. I looked around solidsignal.com, amazon.com (for the reviews), and hdtvprimer.com (information on antennae gain) and I think I have a choice that looks good on paper.

The Antennas Direct DB4 UHF HDTV Antenna is not as ungainly as the 4228 and it is at a similar price point. It should fit into an attic without requiring dissassembly/reassembly. The reviews on Amazon talk about being able to receive clear HD from 75 miles away (don't know about relative tower signal strength.)

The DB4 does have a disturbing drop-off in gain at the bottom of the UHF band according to hdtvprimer.com. Do you think this is real? Is the CM 4228 really the only way to go in Fort Collins?

Thanks,


Dave

The DB8 is the DB4 doubled and is similar to the CM 4228. The DB8 is a little less directional than the CM 4228, but maybe not as good for VHF. (7 and 9 are slated to revert back to their VHF after their analog is shut down.)

I am in northeast Longmont, not all of the way up in Fort Collins.

Hi All,

I've read the posts since Lookout Mountain started transmitting and I can't say I've got a clear picture of the best antenna for Fort Collins.

It sounds like the Channel Master 4228 is popular, with some people using generic Yagi antennae. I looked around solidsignal.com, amazon.com (for the reviews), and hdtvprimer.com (information on antennae gain) and I think I have a choice that looks good on paper.

The Antennas Direct DB4 UHF HDTV Antenna is not as ungainly as the 4228 and it is at a similar price point. It should fit into an attic without requiring dissassembly/reassembly. The reviews on Amazon talk about being able to receive clear HD from 75 miles away (don't know about relative tower signal strength.)

The DB4 does have a disturbing drop-off in gain at the bottom of the UHF band according to hdtvprimer.com. Do you think this is real? Is the CM 4228 really the only way to go in Fort Collins?

Thanks,


Dave

It's going to make a big difference where you are located in Fort Collins.

If you haven't already, go to TV Fool (http://www.tvfool.com/) and run your address for a listing of channels and how difficult they may be to receive at your location.

It looks like KFCT-DT (DT Ch 21) has filed for a new tower and 897Kw transmitter location on Buckhorn Mountain about 12 air miles West from downtown Fort Collins. That would certainly eliminate any reception problems from them and it looks like it will extend their coverage to Estes Park, Red Feather Lakes, Livermore and much of the area between Fort Collins and Laramie WY as well as farther out on to the plaines east of Greeley.

The technical information is here: (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=651249)