I'm at Horsetooth and College and the little powered set-top antenna I've got isn't going to cut it with football season starting up (the only thing I can get with it is KFCT-DT and a bunch of Spanish language stations).

If I'm going to mount something big (which I think I must), I'd rather have it done right. Does anybody know of a decent company in the Ft. Collins area that does antenna installations?

I'm thinking (at present) a Winegard HD-8800 mounted in the attic (if I've got room) or a ChannelMaster 4221 (If I don't mind losing 7 & 9 when they drop back to VHF and if I don't absolutely need the extra 2.5dB that HTDVPrimer says it's lacking against the 8800 in the 20-30 range.

I'd rather mount outside, but I don't think a 3x4 panel's going to sit very well in my neighborhood of little plastic KBHomes.

I can't imagine there is enough business these days to support a professional antenna installer, but I don't know for sure. I suspect you are going to have to be the "professional" installer if you want a new antenna installation.

Have you considered the ChannelMaster 4228? I'm fairly certain that it will pull in Channels 7,9 and 13 (KBDI) after the transition, considering my current analog reception of 7,9 and 12 right now using a 4228 (The 4228 is the only UHF only antenna I know of that actually gets reasonable VHF reception for the channels we will care about after February). But my installation is outdoors, so YMMV. Luckily my installation, although facing out from the front of the house (attached to my chimney) is shielded by some trees. I'll be interested to see if I get any comments in late fall once the leaves fall. Outdoor antenna's are against my homeowners association convenants, however the FCC regulations trump neighborhood covenants.

I really don't think the antenna looks that bad, especially since it is installed on the corner of my chimney, rather than standing alone by itself on a rooftop antenna mast. I personally think a DBS dish is uglier than a 4228, however most people mount their DBS dishes on the side of their house rather than on their roof.

Just out of curiosity, what side of your house faces towards Lookout Mountain? Perhaps mounting the antenna on the side of the house rather than the roof might work for you, depending on line of sight obstructions.

I can't imagine there is enough business these days to support a professional antenna installer, but I don't know for sure.
I figured there might be somebody who got sub-contracted for all the Dish installations - I imagine they're pretty similar from a mounting hardware and wiring/grounding standpoint.


Have you considered the ChannelMaster 4228? [...] But my installation is outdoors, so YMMV.
Unless it comes apart, I think an outdoor installation's about the only choice!


I really don't think the antenna looks that bad, especially since it is installed on the corner of my chimney, rather than standing alone by itself on a rooftop antenna mast.
That's kind of the problem - there's absolutely nothing on top of any of the houses, so anything I throw up there would stick out like a sore thumb.

Something like the Antennas Direct ClearStream4 (http://www.antennasdirect.com/C4-Clearstream-DTV-antenna.html) is an appealing size for an outdoor install, but I'd sure want to see some testing on it first.

It's a shame that none of the pizza-box style antennas really has the gain to pull in Lookout Mountain, since those just about disappear against my siding and I've got plenty of nice places to hang one of those.


Just out of curiosity, what side of your house faces towards Lookout Mountain? Perhaps mounting the antenna on the side of the house rather than the roof might work for you, depending on line of sight obstructions.

Side wall of the house faces pretty much due South, but (a) my neighbor's house is about 15' away from it and (b) all my cable wiring already comes in on the North side of the house. :(

I might just have to go get a bunch of drycleaning done and get enough coat hangers to mock one up and find out how noticeable it really is. The fact that it'd be pretty much perpendicular to the street might help out a lot to keep the visual impact down.

First, what happened to my posts? Does anyone else notice a large gap between July 4 and August 12???

Not that I'm all hurt because my posts are gone....but I wonder?? I know my last post rambled on....but was it that bad??


...I'd rather have it done right. Does anybody know of a decent company in the Ft. Collins area that does antenna installations?...I would certainly contact any of the satellite installers, because I agree, they know about wiring and grounding and such.

BUT you will certainly need to provide the antenna....and I'd test it first, before paying to have it done.

I used to work as an installer, so I went back to that shop to ask about which antenna to use. Sadly they didn't have a good solution. I ended up with the Radio Shack U-75R....on my roof...would have preferred an attic install, but the signal was that much worse down a couple feet and under the shingles.

The U-75R is small enough (scared me at first, thought NO WAY) but it works well for me ....2, 4, 7, 9, 20, 22...and kinda 31.... I'm getting them all, without really dialing-in the antenna. And I'm further north and west in FtC.

University TV in Ft. Collins may do antenna installations. Pro-Tech in Greeley used to do them also, including in the Ft. Collins area.

You can contact a 3rd party Dish/DirecTV installer as most of them know how to do that as well.

NoCO_1806,

The forum had a major database crash. You can read about it on the front page.

Glad the U-75R is working for you. It's a good little antenna...

If anyone is looking for an antenna installation company, myself as well as my partner (Tim Chamberlain), install Channel Master antennas (we supply and install). We also install Ku-band FTA satellite systems. We work from north Denver to Fort Collins, east to Fort Morgan and area.

I won't try to sound like an advertisement here, as the ADM will probably delete this if I do. I have 30+ years experience with antenna installations, while my buddy Tim is a master electrician and can cover *anything* electrical. (TnT Custom Electric, Milliken, Colorado)

BTW, if you haven't since Saturday (16th), you should run an update on your local digital channels. KPXC-DT 43-1 (remaps to 59) signed on the air during the day on Saturday. You'll get 59-1 Ion; 59-2 Qubo; 59-3 IonLife; 59-4 Worship.

Jim Thomas
TnT Custom Electric
Milliken, Colorado
cell 970-397-0591

anythingwire @ yahoo.com

Anyone have any details on a new channel 5 coming to Northern colorado? They were advertising on the radio yesterday.

Hi All,

I've read the posts since Lookout Mountain started transmitting and I can't say I've got a clear picture of the best antenna for Fort Collins.

It sounds like the Channel Master 4228 is popular, with some people using generic Yagi antennae. I looked around solidsignal.com, amazon.com (for the reviews), and hdtvprimer.com (information on antennae gain) and I think I have a choice that looks good on paper.

The Antennas Direct DB4 UHF HDTV Antenna is not as ungainly as the 4228 and it is at a similar price point. It should fit into an attic without requiring dissassembly/reassembly. The reviews on Amazon talk about being able to receive clear HD from 75 miles away (don't know about relative tower signal strength.)

The DB4 does have a disturbing drop-off in gain at the bottom of the UHF band according to hdtvprimer.com. Do you think this is real? Is the CM 4228 really the only way to go in Fort Collins?

Thanks,


Dave

It's been three months, I wonder what Dave ended up doing. I'm in Loveland in a similar situation...it's going in the attic but I'm worried about VHF, especially with 7 and 9 going back to VHF.

The CM4228 sounds good, but unless it can be disassembled, it won't fit though the attic access (about 33" diagonal). If it can, that may be the way I go.

If you've got the CM 4228, what are you doing for VHF 2-8? What about CBS on 4?

S

Anyone have any details on a new channel 5 coming to Northern Colorado? They were advertising on the radio yesterday.

It's KGWN, which is probably moving from its temporary digital authorization for broadcast at 95.5kW ERP to its full authorized digital power of 459 kW ERP. Don't look for it on Channel 5, of course -- all low-band TV is going to vanish next February. KGWN is broadcasting on digital channel 30.

According to FCC records, the only "Channel 5" in all of Colorado that is not a translator is K05MD-D, a low-power digital station in Cripple Creek, which is south of Denver. Apparently, it is authorized to broadcast digitally on Channel 5 in the soon-to-vanish VHF low-band, which makes it an odd duck indeed. I have no idea what happens to it at the February transition.


Jim McCauley

If you've got the CM 4228, what are you doing for VHF 2-8? What about CBS on 4?

I've had a Terk 38 antenna in our attic for four years, which is a so-so performer in VHF low-band (channels 2-6) but very good in VHF high-band (7-13). Its UHF performance is typical of large broadband antennas, adequate for DTV in Northern Colorado even at current power levels, which are generally lower now than they will be after the February transition.

Because of its large size, though, I would not recommend it for a new installation.


Jim McCauley

That was my thoughts to about channel 5 going away. Strange they are advertising on radio though with that channel number...go figure.

That was my thoughts to about channel 5 going away. Strange they are advertising on radio though with that channel number...go figure.

They are advertising for the general public, not for us. We know that KGWN-DT is broadcasting on RF Channel 30, but the channel that will show up on the TV or converter box will be Channel 5. Most people won't have any idea about the underlying RF channel. This is the primary reason why the ATSC standard includes this level of indirection -- so that logos and other marketing doesn't have to change when going from analog to digital. KGWN will remain on "Channel 5" as far as most people are concerned.

It's KGWN, which is probably moving from its temporary digital authorization for broadcast at 95.5kW ERP to its full authorized digital power of 459 kW ERP. Don't look for it on Channel 5, of course -- all low-band TV is going to vanish next February. KGWN is broadcasting on digital channel 30.

According to FCC records, the only "Channel 5" in all of Colorado that is not a translator is K05MD-D, a low-power digital station in Cripple Creek, which is south of Denver. Apparently, it is authorized to broadcast digitally on Channel 5 in the soon-to-vanish VHF low-band, which makes it an odd duck indeed. I have no idea what happens to it at the February transition.

They will continue on VHF 5. You are mistaken about Low VHF going away. Not many stations are going to stay on Low VHF, because of some of the multipath interference issues with Low VHF. But the FCC did not sell the low VHF spectrum. They sold the high end of the UHF tv spectrum (i.e. 52 and up). There are major market, full power TV stations that will be broadcasting digitally in the low VHF range after the transition.

The CM4228 sounds good, but unless it can be disassembled, it won't fit though the attic access (about 33" diagonal). If it can, that may be the way I go.

If you've got the CM 4228, what are you doing for VHF 2-8? What about CBS on 4?


I've got the CM 4228, and I am very happy with it. I don't watch analog TV anymore, so I don't care about the low VHF spectrum. I tested that after I installed the antenna, and I don't believe I got any signal for the Denver low VHF stations, which didn't surprise me.

My CM 4228 is mounted outside on my chimney, and it does a fairly good job of getting the high VHF stations. I get very clear pictures (not perfect, but still very good) on channels 7 and 9. Channel 12 is not as good. The only reason I checked was to get an idea of my chances of getting those frequencies when KMGH, KUSA and KBDI start using those channels after february. Note that KBDI is going to move to channel 13 after the transition. If you look at the RF response graph for the CM 4228 in the high VHF band you will notice that it has a valley at the channel 12 frequency, but channel 13 should be better, so I still have high hopes for that after february.

As I mentioned, I don't use the antenna for low VHF (it doesn't work), but that is not a problem since I can receive the digital versions of KWGN, KCNC and KRMA.

The CM 4228 can be disassembled. See the following URL:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1059312

Note also that there is a new version of the CM4228 coming out which will be designed for better response in the high VHF range. However, it is even bigger (wider). I'll be interested in real world tests when it actually starts shipping.

If it turns out that I don't get reliable reception of the digital stations in the high VHF range after the transition my plan is to install a small channel specific (Channel 8) yagi, and combine it with the output of the CM4228 (using appropriate filtering). The Channel 8 specific yagi has better reception at channels 7 and 9 than many wider band high VHF yagi's. I will give up on receiving KBDI (channel 13) in that case.

Of course, if the new CM 4228 offers significant improvement in the high VHF range I may just replace my current CM 4228, since that solution is much simpler and less ugly.

I haven't heard the radio ads that KGWN is apparently running. However, in its Form 387 filing with the FCC on 2-20-08 regarding the status of its digital transition, the following excerpt indicates that KGWN has been at full power for some time now:
Operational Status:
Is the Licensee/Permittee now operating its fully authorized final, DTV (post-transition) facility?
Yes
When KGWN was at low power, and I believe their actual STA ERP was nothing near their authorized 95.5 kW, I received them 24/7 on some days and always in the evenings. Ironically, when they increased their ERP (to some unknown level) under their construction permit, which AFAIK was sometime in 2007, I lost reception, probably due to a change in signal pattern. Perhaps they are going to go to full power now although I thought they already were at full power.

KGWN hasn't taken actions other stations have taken to maximize coverage. Their digital and analog antennas are on the same tower. The analog antenna is, I presume, at the top of the tower, with the digital antenna 27 meters lower, apparently side-mounted. With this arrangement, their digital coverage does not replicate their analog coverage. They have not filed anything with the FCC to move their digital antenna to the top of their tower after 2-17-09 nor have they requested an increase in ERP to replicate their analog coverage, as many stations around the country have done. Perhaps they are resource strapped (very small DMA) or perhaps all they care about is cable carriage.

I'm losing patience with Rocky Mountain PBS as far as their Northern Colorado coverage is concerned, and frankly, their failure to make concrete and public disclosures of their plans for providing digital signals in my part of the state have become, in my view, totally unacceptable.

In particular, they are keeping all us folks in Northern Colorado literally in the dark about the timetable for construction of this new Mount Morrison tower and the coverage that can be expected from it if and when it is in place.

I'm beginning to question RMPBS sincerity regarding the provision of service up here, and I'm wondering if it might be appropriate to start looking for a big stick, because walking softly has had no positive effect.

So here is what I'm thinking about: what level of signal presence must a broadcaster have in an area to qualify for must-carry status on the cable systems in that area? If KRMA cannot be received in Fort Collins after the February analog cutoff, would Comcast and US Cable be obliged to carry them up here?

Also, are there any "signal importation rules" that might actually disqualify KRMA for cable carriage in an area for which they have made no serious attempt to provide broadcast coverage?

Just thinking...


Jim McCauley

As I mentioned, I don't use the antenna for low VHF (it doesn't work), but that is not a problem since I can receive the digital versions of KWGN, KCNC and KRMA.


Note also that there is a new version of the CM4228 coming out which will be designed for better response in the high VHF range. However, it is even bigger (wider). I'll be interested in real world tests when it actually starts shipping.



Please forgive my ignorance, but I see that the digital KCNC is on 4.1 and 5.1. Isn't that in the VHF spectrum?

Any word on when that new 4228 might show up?

S

Please forgive my ignorance, but I see that the digital KCNC is on 4.1 and 5.1. Isn't that in the VHF spectrum?

Any word on when that new 4228 might show up?

S

KCNC-DT is on channel 35. The signal has a component called "PSIP" which tells your receiver to show it to you on 4-1.

- Trip

KCNC-DT is on channel 35. The signal has a component called "PSIP" which tells your receiver to show it to you on 4-1.

- Trip

Great! Where can I find this information? As long as I have CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX and PBS after Feb 19, I'll go with a UHF-only antenna.

Great! Where can I find this information? As long as I have CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX and PBS after Feb 19, I'll go with a UHF-only antenna.

My own website has that information.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=25

You'll see the display channel (the 4 in 4-1) on the left, then their current digital channel on the next column over. If it has an arrow pointing to another number, that means the station is moving to that second channel on 02/17/09. In your case, KMGH-7, KUSA-9, and KBDI-12 are moving back to VHF channels.

- Trip

My own website has that information.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=25

You'll see the display channel (the 4 in 4-1) on the left, then their current digital channel on the next column over. If it has an arrow pointing to another number, that means the station is moving to that second channel on 02/17/09. In your case, KMGH-7, KUSA-9, and KBDI-12 are moving back to VHF channels.

- Trip

Hey, thanks!

Anybody got GoogleEarth coordinates for the tower? Would like to see exactly where they are.

I went through the KQCK Application Filings on the FCC website:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_list.pl?Facility_id=18287

Despite the fact that they have been off the air for over 30 days, there is no filing of a request for silent operation.

I ratted them out via http://esupport.fcc.gov/complaints.htm. Feel free to do the same.


Jim McCauley

Hey, thanks!

Anybody got GoogleEarth coordinates for the tower? Would like to see exactly where they are.

http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16

There's a package there with icons for every TV station in the US I believe. It's zipped up, just unzip and open in Google Earth.

- Trip

Hello from Windsor Colorado. My first post here.
I have a CM 4228 installed in my attic. (Had to drill out the rivets and reassemble above the access to get it there, but very much worth it.) It's combined with a CM 7777 amplifier. I'm located in the Water Valley neighborhood near the Conoco convenience store. Some of the channels I can receive are:
2-1 KWGN-DT
2-2 KWGN-DT (No current programing)
4-1 KCNC-DT
6 KRMA
6-1 KRMA-DT (sometimes weak)
6-2 V-ME (sometimes weak)
7-1 KMGH-HD
9-1 KUSA-DT
9-2 WEATHER
12-1 KBDI-DT
12-2 KBDI-DC
12-3 KBDI-WV
18-5 (BLANK)
18-6 (BLANK)
18-8 (BLANK)
20-1 KTVD-DT
22-1 KDVR-DT
31-1 KDVR-DT
40-1 DayStar
48 (blurry) (this was misposted as 48-1 in the original post)
59-1 KPXC-DT
59-2 qubo
59-3 IONlife
59-4 W
I neglected to list the air channels as I deleted then from my remote. I plan on aiming a vu-90xr antenna toward the north hopefully to pick up channels 27,30 and improve 48.

The series of channels you show as 18-X are KRMA. You probably picked them up on a scan either when KRMA had faulty PSIP info or because your tuner didn't read the PSIP correctly and mapped them to the RF channel, 18. Channel 22-1 is KFCT which is located in Ft. Collins and rebroadcasts KDVR as a full power satellite station.

Channel 27, KLWY, is planning to flash cut its analog to digital on 2-27-09, so you won't be able to receive KLWY digital until then. You list a channel 48-1 as blurry. Digital channels are 100% clear if you receive them. I checked the FCC database and found no full power channel 48, either analog or digital, in Wyoming or Nebraska. There is one full power analog channel 48 in Pueblo, CO, a Spanish language station, which is well beyond reception at your location. Can you ID this channel - call sign, city, etc.?

If you plan to install a second antenna, are you aware that you usually can't just combine them. You either need filters to pass or block channels on a combined line or you need to run two separate cables, one for each antenna, and switch between antennas using and A/B switch.

18-5 (BLANK)
18-6 (BLANK)
18-8 (BLANK)


Just out of curiosity, what model converter box or digital tuner are you using? Can you actually tune to 18-5 and hear audio? If you do hear audio it will be the Audio Information Network of Colorado. What happens if you try to "tune" to 18-6 or 18-8? I'd be curious what if any error message you get (18-6 and 18-8 are data only streams provided by Update Logic Inc. which is used for updating firmware in peoples digital TV's and converter boxes).

The series of channels you show as 18-X are KRMA. You probably picked them up on a scan either when KRMA had faulty PSIP info or because your tuner didn't read the PSIP correctly and mapped them to the RF channel, 18.


No, it is more likely his box is trying a little too hard to make sense of the PSIP stream that KRMA is sending. I'm not sure if what KRMA is doing is actually a violation of FCC rules or not.

Basically, all MPEG-2 transport streams need to provide a PAT table and a PMT table for each "Program" found in the PAT table. Without those tables it would be difficult/impossible for a mpeg-2 transport stream decoder to extract a program from the stream (it could just check the various pids looking for a elementary video stream and an elementary audio stream and hope they belong with each other, but that would be a stretch). These tables are defined in the MPEG-2 standard ISO 13818-1 and are referenced in the basic ATSC Digital Television Standard A/53.

KRMA has 5 "Programs" in their PAT table:


Program #3: What we see as Channel 6.1
Program #4: What we see as Channel 6.2 (V-me)
Program #5: An audio only stream containing the Audio Information Network of Colorado feed.
Program #6: A data stream from Update Logic, Inc.
Program #8: Another data stream from Update Logic, Inc.


If KRMA wasn't sending any of the ATSC A/65 standard PSIP data then most boxes would be showing us the first two programs as channels 18.1 and 18.2, but that will depend on how each box decides to handle this situation, since there is no standard way of handling a lack of PSIP information (i.e. a missing TVCT table).

However, KRMA does send a TVCT table which maps Program #3 to virtual channel 6.1 and Program #4 to virtual channel 6.2. It does not contain entries for Programs 5,6 or 8. Note, there is no requirement to have contiguous program #'s since they are typically hidden from the consumer. It seems that most stations have their primary TV channel in either program #1 or program #3, so KRMA isn't doing anything weird here.

So, there is another ATSC standard (A/90) that says that data streams should be included in the TVCT as a data only channel and given a virtual channel number. So KRMA is violating that standard, but I don't know if the FCC requires adherence to that standard. It also wouldn't surprise me if some converter boxes actually would not handle a data channel properly.

That leaves the audio only channel. That channel should also have an entry in the TVCT table indicating it as an audio only channel and allocate a virtual channel number for it. If they did that then perhaps the Audio Information Network feed would be available to more people. However, currently this audio stream does not conform with the ATSC standard, since all ATSC audio is supposed to be AC-3 encoded. The AIN audio channel is encoded as MPEG-1 audio (Not sure if it is Layer 3 or not). Hopefully they will fix this at some point.

Anyway, Constkng's converter/tuner is seeing the TVCT entries for Program's 3 and 4 and mapping them properly to Channel 6.1 and 6.2 respectively. Most converter boxes seem to ignore the other programs as long as a TVCT is present (If a TVCT is not present then most boxes seem to use the RF Channel, e.g. what we get for KQCK and KRMT which don't send a TVCT table). But Constkng's converter/tuner maps the remaining programs by using the RF channel for the major channel number and using the internal program number for the minor channel number. That might be useful for the audio channel. It seems a little silly for the data only channels, since I can't see any reason a consumer would want to "tune" to them.


Channel 27, KLWY, is planning to flash cut its analog to digital on 2-27-09, so you won't be able to receive KLWY digital until then.

Actually KLWY is operating a pre transition digital station at low power on RF channel 28. They were granted a switch back to channel 27 for post transition (a cost saving move for them which also allowed them to avoid operating two full power stations simultaneously). I believe the current ERP for KLWY-DT is so low that the chance of getting it in Windsor or Fort Collins is fairly low (and probably impossible if the antenna is not pointed directly at the transmitting antenna). I hope to be able to get them when they go full power next February (assuming they do ... they've mentioned financial difficulties in some of their FCC submissions).


You list a channel 48-1 as blurry. Digital channels are 100% clear if you receive them.I checked the FCC database and found no full power channel 48, either analog or digital, in Wyoming or Nebraska.


Perhaps what he means by "blurry" is "breaking up" due to being right on the edge of getting the channel. There is an analog low power translator for the Trinity Broadcasting Network on Channel 48 in Loveland (K48CG, Facility ID 68077), which is next door to Windsor. I don't see an application for a DTV low power translator for K48CG, but if there was one they would probably have to use virtual channel 48. But that probably isn't the station he was talking about anyway, since he appears to have a channel in mind when he talks about pointing an antenna to the north to improve reception of channel 48.

Posted by jsmar:
Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighmike
The series of channels you show as 18-X are KRMA. You probably picked them up on a scan either when KRMA had faulty PSIP info or because your tuner didn't read the PSIP correctly and mapped them to the RF channel, 18.

No, it is more likely his box is trying a little too hard to make sense of the PSIP stream that KRMA is sending. I'm not sure if what KRMA is doing is actually a violation of FCC rules or not.
I don't understand why you said "no". What's your point. All you've done is express the same thought I had using different words.

You are correct about the STA for KLWY. I missed that one. Thanks.

Regarding channel 48-1, Constkng stated in the post that reception was blurry. That indicates it is an analog channel. Designating a channel as XX-1 indicates digital reception. As I stated in my post, I checked for full power stations on channel 48 and didn't find any. Constkng also mentioned pointing his antenna north to improve reception of 48, which is the opposite direction of the LP in Loveland. I guess at this point it would be helpful if Constkng could provide a little more info on channel 48.

Posted by jsmar:
I don't understand why you said "no". What's your point. All you've done is express the same thought I had using different words.


Sorry, perhaps I misinterpreted your response. I read it as saying that either KRMA's psip data is wrong or that the box is wrong in interpreting it. I'm not sure it's as clear cut as either of those situations, or it may be a little of both. But I thought the detailed explanation might be interesting/informative for some. I apologize if it seemed redundant to you.

The series of channels you show as 18-X are KRMA. You probably picked them up on a scan either when KRMA had faulty PSIP info or because your tuner didn't read the PSIP correctly and mapped them to the RF channel, 18. Channel 22-1 is KFCT which is located in Ft. Collins and rebroadcasts KDVR as a full power satellite station.

Channel 27, KLWY, is planning to flash cut its analog to digital on 2-27-09, so you won't be able to receive KLWY digital until then. You list a channel 48-1 as blurry. Digital channels are 100% clear if you receive them. I checked the FCC database and found no full power channel 48, either analog or digital, in Wyoming or Nebraska. There is one full power analog channel 48 in Pueblo, CO, a Spanish language station, which is well beyond reception at your location. Can you ID this channel - call sign, city, etc.?

If you plan to install a second antenna, are you aware that you usually can't just combine them. You either need filters to pass or block channels on a combined line or you need to run two separate cables, one for each antenna, and switch between antennas using and A/B switch.

Rechecking the channel list I discovered that the channel is actually 48 and not 48-1 as posted. It currently shows the same program as channel 57.

I plan on using your separate cables and A/B switch suggestion for the additional antenna. Thanks!

""[QUOTE=jsmar;14646709]Just out of curiosity, what model converter box or digital tuner are you using? Can you actually tune to 18-5 and hear audio? If you do hear audio it will be the Audio Information Network of Colorado. What happens if you try to "tune" to 18-6 or 18-8? I'd be curious what if any error message you get (18-6 and 18-8 are data only streams provided by Update Logic Inc. which is used for updating firmware in peoples digital TV's and converter boxes).""

The TV that picked up the 3 "BLANK" channels is a Samsung LN52A750. So I just checked our two Zenith DTT901 converter boxes on the other sets, and neither one shows the 18xx like the Samsung.
I have not heard any audio.

Response to:
""That might be useful for the audio channel. It seems a little silly for the data only channels, since I can't see any reason a consumer would want to "tune" to them.""

I had assumed that these were future DTV channels and kept them like channel 2-2 for an easy status check. As my Samsung was new in June and I have since added several home theater components, I found channels 18xx a good place to tune to during set up of the additional components. Also the Samsung has an "InfoLink" feature which I use often and it displays well over the blank screen.

Response to:
"" But that probably isn't the station he was talking about anyway, since he appears to have a channel in mind when he talks about pointing an antenna to the north to improve reception of channel 48.""

Actually I wasn't sure where 48 was located. But I found that I can sure learn a lot here in a short time. Thanks again for the info!

I see I'm not using the "quote feature" correctly. I'll get it figured out.

But Constkng's converter/tuner maps the remaining programs by using the RF channel for the major channel number and using the internal program number for the minor channel number. That might be useful for the audio channel. It seems a little silly for the data only channels, since I can't see any reason a consumer would want to "tune" to them.

First of all, Constkng, there's no need to put quotation marks around the QUOTE tags. Just put the text you want to quote inside the quote tag.

Secondly, it would appear that his receiver simply doesn't know how to handle that UpdateTV stuff. I have a receiver at home that won't handle it also, giving me blank subchannels on my PBS station. If the receiver properly conforms to PSIP standards, it's my understanding that it shouldn't show them at all.

- Trip

Finally tweaked my attic antennas and now can get Channel 9HD during the day 100% of the time. Now I get all the major networks HDs so I am happy. Channel 11 is not possible during the day but with a fixed attic antenna and no rotor I am not surprised.

Channel 11 is not possible during the day but with a fixed attic antenna and no rotor I am not surprised.

When you say Channel 11, do you mean KQCK-DT? I live about 14 miles from its transmitter on Horsetooth Mountain near Fort Collins, and I haven't seen a sniff of their signal since early August. Please advise.


Jim McCauley

When you say Channel 11, do you mean KQCK-DT? I live about 14 miles from its transmitter on Horsetooth Mountain near Fort Collins, and I haven't seen a sniff of their signal since early August. Please advise.
Jim McCauley
I live 4 miles from their transmitter and there is no signal. They used to be the strongest signal for me, even though my antenna is not pointed in that direction. They are definitely not transmitting.

I live 4 miles from their transmitter and there is no signal. They used to be the strongest signal for me, even though my antenna is not pointed in that direction. They are definitely not transmitting.

x2.

I'm only a couple/few crow miles away. Nuttin'.

A brave soul from the FCC is coming to town tonight. This is from the Fort Collins Library District website:

LIBRARY PROVIDES HELP FOR DIGITAL TELEVISION TRANSITION

With the switch to digital television (DTV) approaching quickly, you may be wondering what to do with your rustic television that's been in the family for years. Will it finally have to be thrown away? The Fort Collins Regional Library District is offering a program that will answer this question and more. The program, "Digital Television - What is it all about?" will be held on Sept. 15 in the Harmony Library. The hour-long programs start at 7 pm, and Wayne Liang from the Federal Communication Commission will answer any questions or concerns you may have about the switch to DTV.

I don't know how well prepped this person will be on local matters, but I'm curious about:

1. RMPBS' plans for post-transition service for Northern Colorado. (I may have some news on this score in a few days.)

2. The impact on Northern Colorado reception for the KBDI DTV multiplex when it makes its post-transition move back down to VHF digital channel 13 at reduced power.

3. What the hell happened to KQCK-DT (digital channel 11).

Could be either interesting or entertaining in a deer-in-the-headlights kind of way. Y'all come.


Jim McCauley

x2.

I'm only a couple/few crow miles away. Nuttin'.

Well I did not not know they had stopped transmitting. I seldom use the OTA as my pic with Directv is so good. Mostly use it when I am doing the updates Friday night to the Cutting Edge Directv software.

A brave soul from the FCC is coming to town tonight.

Came and went. It was a generic presentation designed for general interest. The presenter, a personable and quiet fellow, answered questions from the mainly-senior crowd -- the usual queries, like "Can I still use my VHS tape machine to time-shift?" There is clearly a good deal of confusion among prospective DTV buyers.

After the meeting, the FCC guy tried a scan with a Digital Stream CECB -- fed by rabbit ears, no less -- and got a clear picture only on 22-1. 2-1 and 2-2 just barely came in, the former broken up and blocky. Given that this was on the southwest corner of Fort Collins, this was no surprise to anyone familiar with local conditions.

While he was trying yet another fruitless scan, I clued him in on the unannounced disappearance of KQCK-DT. This piqued his regulatory interest, and he gave me his card. I'm following up today with an e-mail.


Jim McCauley

Came and went. It was a generic presentation designed for general interest. The presenter, a personable and quiet fellow, answered questions from the mainly-senior crowd -- the usual queries, like "Can I still use my VHS tape machine to time-shift?" There is clearly a good deal of confusion among prospective DTV buyers.

After the meeting, the FCC guy tried a scan with a Digital Stream CECB -- fed by rabbit ears, no less -- and got a clear picture only on 22-1. 2-1 and 2-2 just barely came in, the former broken up and blocky. Given that this was on the southwest corner of Fort Collins, this was no surprise to anyone familiar with local conditions.

While he was trying yet another fruitless scan, I clued him in on the unannounced disappearance of KQCK-DT. This piqued his regulatory interest, and he gave me his card. I'm following up today with an e-mail.


Jim McCauley

Nice work Jim

I tried scanning for new channels last night and just barely got ABC and NBC. The video was a slideshow but gave me hope that maybe they still aren't broadcasting at full power and things will improve.

Can anyone give me a quick run down on the status of the channels... like which aren't broadcasting full power and such.

On a side note, US Cable had the History HD channel in clear QAM for about a week. Maybe they'll get the locals up and running and I won't have to worry about reception :)

On a side note, US Cable had the History HD channel in clear QAM for about a week. Maybe they'll get the locals up and running and I won't have to worry about reception :)

Really? Dang, I wish I would have known...if you happen to notice any other clear QAM channels, please post.

Banking on the idea that the only stupid question is one that isn't asked...

Which direction to you point a yagi? I got the Winegard 1713, and I'm guessing you point it to the signal tower as if it were an arrowhead, with the shortest elements closest to the signal.

I wouldn't want to install it in the attic the common sense way and then find out that all my life I assumed incorrectly about which way an antenna points.

S

Go to: http://www.kyes.com/antenna/pointing/pointing.html for images and other good tv antenna info.

T

Thanks. That answers it. There is some good information there for people who have never done it before.

S

This should be interesting (from the RMPBS e-mail newsletter):

DTV MEETING IN FORT COLLINS
Rocky Mountain PBS will be holding a community meeting in Fort Collins on October 20 to discuss the digital transition and its impact on Northern Colorado. The event is free and open to the public.

Monday, October 20, 4-5:30 p.m.
Main Library
Ben Delatour Meeting Room
201 Peterson Street
Fort Collins, CO 80524
(970) 221-6740

Will the message be: "Sorry, no OTA for RMPBS in Northern Colorado for awhile" or will there be better news?

This should be interesting (from the RMPBS e-mail newsletter):

DTV MEETING IN FORT COLLINS

<snip>

Will the message be: "Sorry, no OTA for RMPBS in Northern Colorado for awhile" or will there be better news?

Well, I'll be there. Anyone else? Frankly, I'm delighted that they are coming, given the heat that Pam Osborne (the RMPBS PR person) has taken on her blog (http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/290/Six-months-until-digital-switch---are-you-ready?).


Jim McCauley

Rocky Mountain PBS will be holding a community meeting in Fort Collins on October 20

Dang! I'll be in New Mexico next week!

So, every three months stations are supposed to file form 388 which is titled "DTV Quarterly Activity Station Report".

Most stations will mention times they have been off the air so they couldn't comply with the various DTV transition information requirements. KQCK has been off the air since early August, with the exception of a day or two a few weeks ago. The have not mentioned any off the air time on their form 388. They answered yes to the following questions:

1) Over the past quarter, have you fully complied with the requirements of this option?

2)Have you aired a sufficient number of eligible PSAs (28, 56, or 84 per week, depending on the reporting period) during the correct quarters of the day?

and

3) Have you aired a sufficient number of eligible crawls (28, 56, or 84 per week, depending on the reporting period) during the correct quarters of the day?

They haven't been on the air! How could they answer yes? Does it count if they are being carried on a cable channel? It seems that they still should mention the fact that they are off the air.

Note at the bottom of the form it says:

WILLFUL FALSE STATEMENTS ON THIS FORM ARE PUNISHABLE BY FINE AND/OR IMPRISONMENT (U.S. CODE, TITLE 18, SECTION 1001), AND/OR REVOCATION OF ANY STATION LICENSE OR CONSTRUCTION PERMIT (U.S. CODE, TITLE 47, SECTION 312(a)(1)), AND/OR FORFEITURE (U.S. CODE, TITLE 47, SECTION 503).

You would think that KQCK would be a little more forthright with the FCC regarding their status. Note that three months ago when they last filed this form they answered "no" to the above questions and then in a comment box gave details about a short period of time they were off the air.

Well, I'll be there. Anyone else? Frankly, I'm delighted that they are coming, given the heat that Pam Osborne (the RMPBS PR person) has taken on her blog (http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/290/Six-months-until-digital-switch---are-you-ready?).


Jim McCauley

I'm going to try to be there.
Mark

I'm going to try to be there.
Mark

Thanks!

THIS MEETING COULD BE A BIG DEAL. There will be a member of the RMPBS engineering staff who will be ready to discuss technical matters, and Pam Osborne, the PR staffer and blogger, will be ready to talk about station policy. They may use the meeting to announce plans to keep KRMA visible in Northern Colorado after 17 February 2009 -- or they may explain why that ain't gonna happen.

I spoke to a reporter at _The Coloradoan_ and an editor at _Fort Collins Now_. Because Monday is a busy news day (Sarah Palin is coming to Loveland), it is not certain that local media will be able to send someone to cover the meeting. So...

IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON, SHOW UP.

Again: the meeting details:

Monday, October 20, 4-5:30 p.m.
Main Library
Ben Delatour Meeting Room
201 Peterson Street
Fort Collins, CO 80524


Jim McCauley

Maybe someone could suggest leasing a subchannel from another broadcaster to at least keep an SD feed going after the transition. I'm sure KQCK-DT has bandwidth, assuming they ever get their transmitter going again. They could also try and deal with KDEN-DT (since NBC did donate KRMZ-DT to RMPBS when they bought KDEN) or with one of the other Denver broadcasters.

It'd at least hold people over until they get the new 1000 kW signal up.

- Trip

Maybe someone could suggest leasing a subchannel from another broadcaster to at least keep an SD feed going after the transition.

I suggested exactly that to the RMPBS staff seven months ago. Whether or not that that is part of their solution, we will find out on Monday night.

I'm sure KQCK-DT has bandwidth, assuming they ever get their transmitter going again.

The technical capacity is probably there, but I don't know enough about the distribution capabilities at each end. RMPBS might have to beam their feed via satellite to Equity's network control facility in Little Rock, Arkansas, for it to be fed to the transmitter on Horsetooth. I don't know if that's technically or financially feasible.

And the soap opera of the screwed-up PSIP data that has been dribbling out over the Equity network has been documented here and on other AVS Forums. That might be a considerable headache for the RMPBS technical staff. OTOH, it might help Equity get its technical act together for DTV in general.

They could also try and deal with KDEN-DT (since NBC did donate KRMZ-DT to RMPBS when they bought KDEN) or with one of the other Denver broadcasters. It'd at least hold people over until they get the new 1000 kW signal up.

That would also be a sensible solution. But would the FCC allow what would amount to double coverage of the Denver market?


Jim McCauley

Well, they could deal just with KDEN if they wanted to. I'd avoid KQCK like the plague; it's just the first thing that came to mind when I thought "waste of bandwidth."

The FCC doesn't care what's on a station's subchannels outside of E/I requirements and the normal obscenity stuff. Given that it's a PBS, I imagine the FCC would give brownie points to a station for helping a PBS expand coverage like that, even on a temporary basis.

- Trip

DTV MEETING IN FORT COLLINS
Rocky Mountain PBS will be holding a community meeting in Fort Collins on October 20 to discuss the digital transition and its impact on Northern Colorado.


So, can we get a quick synopsis of what happened at this meeting from someone who attended?

So, can we get a quick synopsis of what happened at this meeting from someone who attended?

RMPBS President James Morgese, accompanied by publicist Pam Osborne and engineer Tom Daly, met with an audience of nine (that's 9) local residents. Despite the light turnout, Morgese gave a solid presentation without overt signs of disappointment.

He described a number of alternatives, none of which is actually worked out or fully planned. Some of the delays relate to FCC processes (a current freeze on translator applications, for example), while others are due to the difficulty RMPBS has had in closing business deals with the relevant parties.

Bottom line: even if any of the strategies that RMPBS is pursuing comes through, the "shadowed corridor" that runs from the foot of Mount Morrison to the communities of Longmont, Loveland, Fort Collins and Greeley will have no signal (either analog or digital) from the current transmitter location for a minimum of sixty days after the transition. The KRMA blackout could conceivably last longer than that.

The good news is that RMPBS showed up and is taking our concerns seriously. The bad news is that there is going to be a blackout of some length no matter what else happens.


Jim McCauley

RMPBS President James Morgese, accompanied by publicist Pam Osborne and engineer Tom Daly, met with an audience of nine (that's 9) local residents. Despite the light turnout, Morgese gave a solid presentation without overt signs of disappointment.

He described a number of alternatives, none of which is actually worked out or fully planned. Some of the delays relate to FCC processes (a current freeze on translator applications, for example), while others are due to the difficulty RMPBS has had in closing business deals with the relevant parties.

Bottom line: even if any of the strategies that RMPBS is pursuing comes through, the "shadowed corridor" that runs from the foot of Mount Morrison to the communities of Longmont, Loveland, Fort Collins and Greeley will have no signal (either analog or digital) from the current transmitter location for a minimum of sixty days after the transition. The KRMA blackout could conceivably last longer than that.

The good news is that RMPBS showed up and is taking our concerns seriously. The bad news is that there is going to be a blackout of some length no matter what else happens.


Jim McCauley

Was there any talk of moving their antenna onto the tower that 14.1 KTFD-DT uses? We get good reception of 14.1 signal, here in Longmont.

Was there any talk of moving their antenna onto the tower that 14.1 KTFD-DT uses? We get good reception of 14.1 signal, here in Longmont.

No, that was not discussed at the meeting. I do know that the RMPBS engineering staff has spent the last six months reviewing a very wide variety of options.

Keep in mind that even if tower space were available, the FCC is not in a position to process requests of that kind with anything resembling speed.


Jim McCauley

Was there any talk of moving their antenna onto the tower that 14.1 KTFD-DT uses? We get good reception of 14.1 signal, here in Longmont.

I did a little more investigation on the FCC website, and this option won't help with the blackout since a Longmont rebroadcasting facility would be classified at a repeater. The FCC isn't accepting applications for those until the middle of next year, what with them being up to their bureaucratic buns in aquatic reptiles.


Jim McCauley

I did a little more investigation on the FCC website, and this option won't help with the blackout since a Longmont rebroadcasting facility would be classified at a repeater. The FCC isn't accepting applications for those until the middle of next year, what with them being up to their bureaucratic buns in aquatic reptiles.


Jim McCauley

If they would just move their DTV antenna up onto the tower that 14.1 KTFD-DT uses I do not think that Longmont would need any repeaters.

For KRMA, the only signal we get is analog. I do not know where that is broadcast from.

If they would just move their DTV antenna up onto the tower that 14.1 KTFD-DT uses I do not think that Longmont would need any repeaters.

KTFD-DT, KTVD (analog channel 20), and KRMA-DT all broadcast from Mount Morrison. KRMA-DT transmits from the ice bridge, a horizontal structure a few feet off the ground near the base of the KTVD tower. If KRMA-DT were to relocate their antenna to either tower (KTVD or KTFD-DT) and raise their power, our troubles would almost certainly be over.

It's not that a technical solution does not exist. It's that RMPBS hasn't been able to pull together the right combination of money and business arrangements to avoid at least a 60-day blackout this spring.


Jim McCauley

Hey folks, about a week ago (probably around 10/12) I got 11.1, 11.2, and 11.3 at around 65% signal strength. Now they're gone. Anyone else stumble across these when they were transmitting?

Hey folks, about a week ago (probably around 10/12) I got 11.1, 11.2, and 11.3 at around 65% signal strength. Now they're gone. Anyone else stumble across these when they were transmitting?

Yes, I noticed that 11.2 was transmitting for a short period of time. They went dark again. :rolleyes:

I hardly even check anymore. They obviously don't give a $#!+ if they transmit or not.

...

For KRMA, the only signal we get is analog. I do not know where that is broadcast from.

Where is KRMA-TV channel 6's analog antenna?

After the 'switch over' could they start broadcasting their DTV signal from that antenna?

Where is KRMA-TV channel 6's analog antenna?

After the 'switch over' could they start broadcasting their DTV signal from that antenna?

The channel 6 antenna likely will not work with the channel 18 digital signal. The wavelengths for 82-88MHz are very different from the wavelengths for 494-500MHz.

- Trip

Hey folks, about a week ago (probably around 10/12) I got 11.1, 11.2, and 11.3 at around 65% signal strength. Now they're gone. Anyone else stumble across these when they were transmitting?

Did you actually look at those channels when they were there? They were up for about 2 days, but they were not sending any psip data at all, including the data that a converter box would use to associate a video stream with its corresponding audio stream (i.e. most stations that don't send most PSIP will send at least the data that tells a tuner which audio streams go with which video streams).

KQCK was sending a bunch of video and audio streams but only one video stream contained valid video, and only two of the audio streams were AC-3. My Zenith box wasn't able to do anything with it. My DTVPal took the one working video stream, associated it with one of the AC-3 audio streams and actually displayed it (I was quite surprised that it actually went that far to try to display something).

My guess is that your tuner found those three streams and did not associate any of them, and instead assigned a channel to each one. That is why I was curious if you actually tried looking at any of them. If you did, can you describe what you found on each "channel"?

Also, what tuner/converter box were you using to tune into KQCK at the time? I'm just curious about the behaviour of various tuner/converter boxes and how they cope with bad data.

Did you actually look at those channels when they were there? They were up for about 2 days, but they were not sending any psip data at all, including the data that a converter box would use to associate a video stream with its corresponding audio stream (i.e. most stations that don't send most PSIP will send at least the data that tells a tuner which audio streams go with which video streams).

KQCK was sending a bunch of video and audio streams but only one video stream contained valid video, and only two of the audio streams were AC-3. My Zenith box wasn't able to do anything with it. My DTVPal took the one working video stream, associated it with one of the AC-3 audio streams and actually displayed it (I was quite surprised that it actually went that far to try to display something).

My guess is that your tuner found those three streams and did not associate any of them, and instead assigned a channel to each one. That is why I was curious if you actually tried looking at any of them. If you did, can you describe what you found on each "channel"?

Also, what tuner/converter box were you using to tune into KQCK at the time? I'm just curious about the behaviour of various tuner/converter boxes and how they cope with bad data.

I'm not using any box...antenna straight into the TV.

11.1 was a repeat of one of the major stations, I can't remember which...ABC or NBC or CBS, I can't remember. 11.2 eludes me, but 11.3 was a weather channel, different from the one on 9.2

S

I'm not using any box...antenna straight into the TV.

11.1 was a repeat of one of the major stations, I can't remember which...ABC or NBC or CBS, I can't remember. 11.2 eludes me, but 11.3 was a weather channel, different from the one on 9.2

S

Sounds like you saw KKTV-DT from Colorado Springs.

- Trip

Sounds like you saw KKTV-DT from Colorado Springs.
- Trip

Yes, that makes much more sense, given what he saw and the fact that KQCK was last on the air at the end of September, not when he saw something on (display channel) 11.

I'm not using any box...antenna straight into the TV.

11.1 was a repeat of one of the major stations, I can't remember which...ABC or NBC or CBS, I can't remember. 11.2 eludes me, but 11.3 was a weather channel, different from the one on 9.2
S

So it looks like you managed to pull in KKTV from your location in Loveland. Conditions must have been just right for that, but it did make me curious about your setup. Previous postings indicated that you bought and installed a Winegard 1713 yagi. That antenna is optimized for high VHF, which probably helps significantly in your long distance VHF reception. Did you wind up locating it in your attic like you originally intended? What are you doing for UHF reception? Are you combining two antennas?

Yes, that makes much more sense, given what he saw and the fact that KQCK was last on the air at the end of September, not when he saw something on (display channel) 11.



So it looks like you managed to pull in KKTV from your location in Loveland. Conditions must have been just right for that, but it did make me curious about your setup. Previous postings indicated that you bought and installed a Winegard 1713 yagi. That antenna is optimized for high VHF, which probably helps significantly in your long distance VHF reception. Did you wind up locating it in your attic like you originally intended? What are you doing for UHF reception? Are you combining two antennas?

I've got both antennas in the attic, the Winegard 1713 and the CM 4228, with a CM7777 preamp. (Glad I got them all when I did...the 4228 is discontinued [the new one won't fit through my attic access] and the 7777 jumped in price the day after I bought mine).

Looks like I got KKTV, as my wife informed me last night that it was indeed CBS on 11.1. Conditions must have been just right, but I doubt I'll leave them on my preset channels.

While I've got you all on the line, I'm starting to realize that hi-VHF and low-VHF are pretty different, aren't they? For instance, I used the 4228 alone for a couple of weeks and Channel 6 (analog) looked pretty bad. When I installed the 1713 I assumed the low-VHF would improve, but not really (I thought there would be some improvement). Not terribly bothered, really, but a hi-VHF doesn't really bring in low-VHF very well at all, does it?

(all this to say "CM 4228...wow!")

S

While I've got you all on the line, I'm starting to realize that hi-VHF and low-VHF are pretty different, aren't they? For instance, I used the 4228 alone for a couple of weeks and Channel 6 (analog) looked pretty bad. When I installed the 1713 I assumed the low-VHF would improve, but not really (I thought there would be some improvement). Not terribly bothered, really, but a hi-VHF doesn't really bring in low-VHF very well at all, does it?

(all this to say "CM 4228...wow!")
S

Low VHF (Channels 2-6) is 55-88 Mhz. High VHF (Channels 7-13) is 175-216 Mhz. The elements of an antenna that is designed to cover low VHF are typically rather large. The 1713 was not designed to receive low VHF, so that is why it didn't do much to improve your reception of low VHF stations. However, since there won't be any low VHF digital stations in the area (the closest low VHF digital station will be in Grand Junction), your 1713 will be a suitable antenna for receiving the post transition high VHF digital stations in the area, i.e. KMGH, KUSA, KQCK and KBDI (and perhaps KKTV once in a while!).

I'm not surprised that only nine people showed up for the October 20 RMPBS community meeting.

1. I only learned about it from reading this forum. Was it publicized any other way?
2. It was at 4 P.M. on a Monday. Most people can't leave work that early.

I hope RMPBS doesn't interpret the small turnout to be a lack of interest.

What the?...

Last night I was flipping though channels. Out of nowhere comes a hispanic channel... 7.27 (yes, seven point twenty-seven)

I didn't dial it in and I didn't do a scan for channels, so where the heck did this come from?

S

7.27 is a simulcast of KZCO-LP (channel 27) which is KMGH channel 7's sister channel. KZCO is an Azteca America affiliate.

I moved this because I meant to post in this thread.

Originally Posted by Constkng
Today I'm receiving the RTN network from Denver on channel 11-1. I didn't do a scan, I just entered 11 to see if anything was there.
T.

Originally Posted by Jsmar
Actually, it's from Fort Collins. KQCK came back on the air two nights ago, although when they first appeared their stream was badly formatted with absolutely no PSIP. They've now added some minimal PSIP, so things are a little better, i.e. all tuners should be able to get them now. They have only one subchannel, and their PSIP says there are three audio channels to go along with the video (all english), but actually there is only one audio stream present. Their TSID is set to 1. I wonder if they will add a second subchannel like before.

But for now I would say that KQCK is "officially" back on the air.

Friday, I was in the KMart on 2151 North Main street, Longmont CO.
They had:
Magnavox TB100MG9 PassThru;EZAdd(ScanUpdt)
Zenith DTT901 PassThru;Now/NextEPG
DTVPal

The Radio Shack in Twin Peaks Mall is selling:
DigitalStream DTX9950 PassThru;EZAdd(ScanUpdt);8hrEPG
Zenith DTT901 PassThru;Now/NextEPG

Now, I wonder if any store, nearby is selling the Zinwell ZAT?

Hello All,

I am hoping you can help me out. This weekend I installed a RS VU190-XR in my attic (boy that was a pain, it is huge). I live in South Fort Collins near Harmony and Lemay. With an in-line pre-amp I get most of the channels I care about (CW, PBS, CBS) but I get absolutely zero signal on ABC (7.1) and NBC (9.1). I have my antenna pointed mostly south. I have tried to sweep it from around 170-190 degrees with no luck.

Does anyone have any idea why I get zero signal and what I can do to fix this? (I know a better pre-amp will help (currently is a POS 10DB (huge noise) Radio Shack), but zero signal with or without amp will probably not change.) Unfortunately a roof antenna (vs attic) is not an option due to negative WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor.) I have about a 100ft run after the pre-amp. (Can't be avoided.)

For reference:

ION (59.*) - Signal ~80
PBS (12.*) - Signal ~80
CW (2.*) - Signal ~70
MyN (20.1) - Signal ~55
FOX (31.1) - Signal ~50
CBS (4.1) - Signal ~50

Various other.

I can understand getting poor signal but not no signal. I know that NBC and ABC are fairly low in the UHF spectrum at real (16/17), but the VU190-XR should do fine here (although I can't find an exact specification.)

I would appreciate any help you guys could give since I am at a loss and the point of this was to cut back on Comcast bills without spending too much.

Thanks,

Rich

Rich,

What material is your roof made out of? Stucco siding? Anything with metal (like the mesh in stucco) is going to degrade the signal for an attic-mount. My first suggestion would be to return that pre-amp, and get a Channel Master 7777. It's one of the best available, and you need it with a 100' cable run.

I've said this several times in this thread, but for the money, the U75-R is great for UHF in our area...and it pulls-in VHF signal, too.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088

I am hoping you can help me out. This weekend I installed a RS VU190-XR in my attic (boy that was a pain, it is huge).

The reason that antenna is so huge is that it is capable of receiving low VHF stations (i.e. 2-6), which you won't have any need for, especially after February 17th. Antennas that cover just high VHF and UHF can be significantly smaller (and certainly less wide).

I live in South Fort Collins near Harmony and Lemay. With an in-line pre-amp I get most of the channels I care about (CW, PBS, CBS) but I get absolutely zero signal on ABC (7.1) and NBC (9.1). I have my antenna pointed mostly south. I have tried to sweep it from around 170-190 degrees with no luck.

Does anyone have any idea why I get zero signal and what I can do to fix this? (I know a better pre-amp will help (currently is a POS 10DB (huge noise) Radio Shack), but zero signal with or without amp will probably not change.)

That preamp can actually make things worse, rather than help. You really need to try a test without the preamp. You also didn't mention what TV or converter box you are using to decode the signal. Some are better than others at decoding weak signals.

The best test would be to test in the attic with a direct connection to the antenna. This eliminates the cheap preamp, the long cable run, and finally any splitters you have installed. The easiest way to do this would be to use a CECB. If you don't have one, see if you can borrow one. You also need a small monitor of some type that takes the composite video output from the CECB. This could be a small TV, a small computer monitor with a composite input, or a video camera that has a direct video input. You may need a long extension cord, however I am guessing you already have power in your attic, since I believe the RS preamp isn't line powered. If you still can't get 7 & 9 then you may be out of luck with your current antenna/indoor install configuration. You could wait until the February 17th transition when 7 and 9 will move their digital service back to their high VHF frequencies and see if that fixes the problem for you. Otherwise you could try a different antenna (kind of risky in that it might not solve the problem) or convince your wife you need to install an outdoor antenna (see below).

If you can get 7 & 9 with the above test then a high quality preamp will probably solve your problem.


Unfortunately a roof antenna (vs attic) is not an option due to negative WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor.) I have about a 100ft run after the pre-amp. (Can't be avoided.)


A bowtie antenna can be mounted on the side of the house or on the side of a chimney, and is significantly smaller than the VU-190R. If you have a south facing wall or a chimney with an unobstructed view to the south you can get significantly better reception without having something sticking up higher than your roof or chimney. Could you sell you wife on that option? Of course bowtie antenna's are typically designed for UHF only. The new design of the Channel Master 4228 is supposed to cover high VHF, the old one (which I have) has some decent reception in that range also. You could wait until February 17th to see how well I and others do with high VHF reception.

For those of us (un)fortunate enough to have US Cable, I noticed today that they will be rolling-out the Denver network stations in HD, starting 12/01/08. I'm not holding my breath, but maybe, just maybe, they'll be clear QAM...

New channel line-up is here:
http://fortcollins.uscable.com/userfiles/file/FC2%20110108%20WEB.pdf

New [US Cable] channel line-up is here:
http://fortcollins.uscable.com/userfiles/file/FC2%20110108%20WEB.pdf

From which KRMA-DT (Rocky Mountain PBS) is again conspicuously absent. All one gets on US Cable is the (decidedly crappy) analog channel.


Jim McCauley

Hello to all,

This is my first post, so I would like to give a little bit of my history. So you won't think I just fell off the turnip truck last week. I've been an electrician for 18 years and a MASTER for 5 years. I have recently added antenna sales and installs to my business.

I have a Channel Master 4228 mounted outside with a CM eave mount kit and a rotator, it mostly points to lookout mountion. I also have a Radio Shack 8' long VHF/UHF/FM antenna in the attic; it's been up there 10 years with very little use. The antenna now points north west to pickup the channels comming from that direction. Both antennas are hooked together and go to my distribution box where it runs through a powered video distribution unit, not an amp. From there it goes to one HDTV with a digital tuner and one analog TV with a Channel Master converter box. I have a Zenith box that I've also used and a LG dvd player recorder with a digital tuner thats hooked up with the HDTV.

I've gone all digital and in January when my contract with Dish is up, its gone. I also have an FTA satellite that will help with having more channels. I live in Milliken and receive all of the available digital channels. Channel 6-1 KRMA-DT comes in at 20 to 30 persent on the CM and not at all on the HDTV but thats ok because we grab it off of the FTA. We also watch some shows over the internet at hulu.com :).

I've been reading the posts for a month or so and wanted to reply to some of the recent chatter.

First all the suggestions for [rmcgowen] are good. Metal does interfere and amps can cause more harm then good but not always. The antenna mounted outside is a very very good idea. The more the connections and splitters and the long cable does kill the signal. I use compression fittings on my RG6, they work very well. The other thing I check when I go on service calls are the fittings behind the wall plate, you can't imagine the junk I find. RG6 coax or RG6 quad sheild is the only thing to use. Oh by the way did I mention that putting the antenna outside is the best way to go;). The CM 4228 does pickup the high VHF channels 7-13, I can get the analogs and have know doubt about getting 7, 9, and 12 come February.

Rich, sorry to hear about the WAF, my wife is great I have 2 dishs and antenna:eek:.

The 4228 is not your dads antenna, it is small enough to fall under the FCC's protection. Neighbors and HOAs can't do anything.

Thanks for reading hope you didn't get lost.

First off, thanks for the responses so far they have given me things to think about.

Rich,

What material is your roof made out of? Stucco siding? Anything with metal (like the mesh in stucco) is going to degrade the signal for an attic-mount. My first suggestion would be to return that pre-amp, and get a Channel Master 7777. It's one of the best available, and you need it with a 100' cable run.



My roof is asphalt shingles. The walls are stucco so I am sure they have a metal mesh in them. I tried to mount the antenna as high as possible given the constraints. It is about 4 feet off the attic floor.


A bowtie antenna can be mounted on the side of the house or on the side of a chimney, and is significantly smaller than the VU-190R. If you have a south facing wall or a chimney with an unobstructed view to the south you can get significantly better reception without having something sticking up higher than your roof or chimney. Could you sell you wife on that option? Of course bowtie antenna's are typically designed for UHF only. The new design of the Channel Master 4228 is supposed to cover high VHF, the old one (which I have) has some decent reception in that range also. You could wait until February 17th to see how well I and others do with high VHF reception.

Hmm. I will check and see. If it is smaller enough, it may be a possibility but I still doubt she will go for it. She wasn't too happy about the DirectTV dish I had. (Got rid of Satellite because the artifacting due to over-compression drove me nuts.)

The receiver I am using for the decode is a Tivo Series 3. I don't know how well it handles weak signals.

One of the issues I am having trouble understanding (which is preventing me from wanting to spend more money to fix) it is how I am receiving some lookout mountain signals and not others and the don't match what tvfool tells me. For instance, CBS 4.1 (35) (NM 41.8db) gives me a signal of around 50, but CW 2.1 (34) (NM 24.7db) give me a signal of around 80. The one with less power gives me better signal. The channel frequencies are very close. This is one part I don't understand. The other part is that NBC 9.1 (16) (NM 27.0db) and ABC 7.1 (17) (NM 14.5db) give me no signal at all even though they similar in power and direction to CW and CBS. The only thing I can see is that they are at 16 and 17 rather than in the 30s. I know that they are at different frequencies but I wouldn't expect 80 vs 0. I would expect that unless the antenna has some very strange gain characteristics that they should at least be close.

Unfortunately I can't find a simulation plot of the vu190-xr above VHF and I have no data on the noise characteristics vs frequency of the pre-amp. I am hesitant to sink more money into the project without some hope of success. (Yes I really want to put the antenna outside but that is likely a constraint.)

Given the comments so far, I think my approach would be:

1) Replace RS pre-amp with CM7777. Cost is around $60 but is incrementally only $20 if I return RS POS. This should also be useful regardless of if I go outside or switch antennas.

2) Replace antenna with CM4228 (assuming I can find one.) This may have the downside of post Feb switch and 7 and 9 becoming VHF. Data still not in on new Chinese CM4228. Also I can't see being able to return VU190-XR which means out $100 plus new antenna cost.

What are the chances of this solving my issues? Also is there anyway an expert could fix this for around $100 (plus parts). University TV wants $125 for first hour and $65 per hour thereafter. I can't see sinking $500 into this project. (I understand people's responses are guesses using their best judgment and won't get upset if they are wrong :))

Thanks,

Rich

Channel 6-1 KRMA-DT comes in at 20 to 30 percent on the CM and not at all on the HDTV but thats ok because we grab it off of the FTA.

By "grab it," do you mean that you are able to get a KRMA feed off a satellite? If so, which one, and how reliable is the downlink?

If not, are you getting the national PBS feeds from AMC-3, a satellite at 87.0 degrees west? Or are you getting the Montana PBS feed from the same bird?

Also, which free-to-air receiver are you using, and with what dish/LNB combination?

We also watch some shows over the internet at hulu.com :).

Are you watching these on your PC, or are you feeding the Hulu video to one of your TV sets?

Thanks! Your post was worth a great deal more than two cents!


Jim McCauley

By "grab it," do you mean that you are able to get a KRMA feed off a satellite? If so, which one, and how reliable is the downlink?

If not, are you getting the national PBS feeds from AMC-3, a satellite at 87.0 degrees west? Or are you getting the Montana PBS feed from the same bird?

Also, which free-to-air receiver are you using, and with what dish/LNB combination?



Are you watching these on your PC, or are you feeding the Hulu video to one of your TV sets?

Thanks! Your post was worth a great deal more than two cents!


Jim McCauley

Hi Jim,

I have a PANSAT 2700A with a Ariza 90cm dish with an Moteck H to H motor, and JSC 321 lnb, not the best I know.

The PBS channels have moved to a brand new satellite AMC 21 at 125.0 degrees W. I am getting 13 differnt channels. The signal strengths are great now that the new satellite came on line October 1. I don't get KRMA, they do not put there channel up on the KU band for free.


Creat TV
Kids sprout
Montana PBS
PBS central (feed)
PBS east (feed)
PBS mountain (feed)
PBS west (feed)
PBS X (national feed 1 day later)
PBS feed (slot for PBS state networks)
South Carolina PBS
PBS world
V-me
Connecticut public TV

As for my internet viewing we do some at the computer, but mostly I hook my laptop to our living room TV and run it through the stereo.

Tim

One of the issues I am having trouble understanding (which is preventing me from wanting to spend more money to fix) it is how I am receiving some lookout mountain signals and not others and the don't match what tvfool tells me. For instance, CBS 4.1 (35) (NM 41.8db) gives me a signal of around 50, but CW 2.1 (34) (NM 24.7db) give me a signal of around 80. The one with less power gives me better signal. The channel frequencies are very close. This is one part I don't understand. The other part is that NBC 9.1 (16) (NM 27.0db) and ABC 7.1 (17) (NM 14.5db) give me no signal at all even though they similar in power and direction to CW and CBS. The only thing I can see is that they are at 16 and 17 rather than in the 30s. I know that they are at different frequencies but I wouldn't expect 80 vs 0. I would expect that unless the antenna has some very strange gain characteristics that they should at least be close.
likely a constraint.)

There are a bunch of variables that affect you. I'll try to list some of them here:

1) TV Fool provides a simulation that is only as good as the data it has. In a lot of cases it has stale data or it is using incorrect data. It also only has terrain data to do the simulation, i.e. it has no idea what buildings, trees or other obstructions might be causing issues. It is a useful tool, especially for antenna aiming, but real world results will never perfectly correlate with a simulation.

2) KMGH and KUSA are using significantly less power to transmit from Lookout Mountain than KCNC and KWGN. Here are the current ERP (Effective Radiated Power) levels for those stations:

KWGN 450KW
KCNC 1000KW
KMGH 30KW
KUSA 37KW


3) The ERP's don't tell the whole story, because each station's antenna has a different radiation pattern. Some areas get less signal than others. I don't believe TV Fool takes this into account. One place to look at those patterns is on "Trip from VA"'s excellent rabbitears.info website. Go to the listings for the Denver market, click on a station and then click on the "Technical Data and screencaps" link. You'll see little white circles that contain a black radiation pattern for each approved or applied for construction permit.

4) Your attic, depending on its configuration and building materials involved, will act as a complex filter, attenuating some frequencies more than others.

5) As far as "80 vs. 0" goes, you need to understand that most digital tuners do not display a signal strength, because that number is fairly useless. For example, if your antenna preamp has a 25 db gain, then the signal strength will be increased by 25db. But the noise was increased by 25 db also. So most digital tuners display a number that is related to the Signal to Noise ratio. Digital reception is not like analog where the signal just starts to fade and get snowy. It tends to be either perfect or not there at all. There is a small window between the two extremes where the picture will break up and the sound will have dropouts. As the signal level decreases and approaches the noise level it becomes harder for the tuner to properly decode the signal. Eventually it will reach the point where it can't decode it, and at a point not too much lower than that it can no longer determine a Signal to Noise factor, so in most cases the tuner will just display 0. What the number is just before it drops to zero seems to vary by device or even from channel to channel (probably related to the type of noise/interference the tuner is being subjected to). I've seen it be as high as 60 or 70 in some cases, so when you say "80 vs. 0" it may really be something like "80 vs. ~65". In other cases it may be as low as 30 before you lose the signal (for example the Zenith DTT900 just has a bar that is roughly divided into thirds. The bottom third is "BAD", and typically you lose the signal at or before crossing into that region, although you will start to get dropouts before that). You probably can't compare these numbers between different devices, unless at the very least the devices share the same decoder.

Given the comments so far, I think my approach would be:

1) Replace RS pre-amp with CM7777. Cost is around $60 but is incrementally only $20 if I return RS POS. This should also be useful regardless of if I go outside or switch antennas.

2) Replace antenna with CM4228 (assuming I can find one.) This may have the downside of post Feb switch and 7 and 9 becoming VHF. Data still not in on new Chinese CM4228. Also I can't see being able to return VU190-XR which means out $100 plus new antenna cost.

What are the chances of this solving my issues?

I still think you should do a test removing as many variables as possible (something like I outlined in my previous post) before spending any more money. However, if you are still able to get a full refund for the RS preamp I would do that before it is too late. A CM 7777 will almost certainly improve things over the RS preamp, especially considering your long cable run.

Take things one step at a time. Don't buy a new antenna before trying a better preamp. Note that a test in your attic without the preamp and long cable run (and no splitters) will probably tell you whether or not a better preamp is going to improve things. If the preamp does improve things, but you get dropouts then it might be worth considering a better antenna. A CM4228 will almost certainly be better than your VU-190R for UHF reception. You VU-190R may be better for high VHF reception. Note that since the CM7777 has separate VHF and UHF inputs you may be able to use both antennas, i.e. the VU-190R for high VHF and the CM4228 for UHF without having to install low pass and high pass filters.

Three other items to consider. First, check all your connections and make sure the center conductor is completely clean. I've seen cases where there was some insulation still adhering to the conductor, and it acted as a filter, affecting only a certain range of channels.

Second, what type of cable is being used for the long run you mentioned? Is it quad shield RG-6? If not, how easy would it be to replace it? This might only buy you a few db, but if you are right on the edge of good reception then every db helps.

Third, how many splitters are you using, if any? Are any of the splitter outputs not being used? You should attach RG-6 terminators to any unused outputs. Of course, if they are not likely to be used then you should replace or remove the splitter.

Posted by anythingwire:
I have a Channel Master 4228 mounted outside with a CM eave mount kit and a rotator, it mostly points to lookout mountion. I also have a Radio Shack 8' long VHF/UHF/FM antenna in the attic; it's been up there 10 years with very little use. The antenna now points north west to pickup the channels comming from that direction. Both antennas are hooked together and go to my distribution box where it runs through a powered video distribution unit, not an amp.

I found your post interesting because I'd like to get rid of my rotor, but to do so, I need to add another antenna (or maybe two) to combine with my present antenna. You have apparently combined a UHF and a combo VHF/UHF antenna. I've read so many posts on various threads in the forums about how this shouldn't or can't be done without installing combiners, filters, etc. and ensuring feed lines on both antennas are of equal length. That guidance seems to make sense, since combining the signal from one antenna which picks up little or no signal from a particular station with an antenna pointed at the station would degrade signal strength on the combined feeds by up to 50%, without even considering multipath problems.

At my location, at a minimum, I need two VHF-hi/UHF antennas for post transition reception - one pointed N for RF channels 11, 21, 38, and 43 and one pointed WNW for channels 7, 9, 13, and all of the UHF channels on Lookout and Morrison. I also have KWHD from the SE but I can live without that one. I haven't attempted to do this, mainly because I thought it was virtually impossible to filter, for example, channel 11 from the WNW antenna and pass it, but not channels 7, 9, and 13, from the N antenna.

Have you compared signal strengths from each antenna separately versus combining them? Is there a difference involving reception of KRMA-DT? You mention that you receive all of the available digital channels with your setup, but I'm not sure from your post that your reception is based solely on a combined antenna feed.

I'm interested in your thoughts about potential success for combining antennas for my location.

First of all, thanks once again for all the detailed information. I am learning a lot.

There are a bunch of variables that affect you. I'll try to list some of them here:

2) KMGH and KUSA are using significantly less power to transmit from Lookout Mountain than KCNC and KWGN. Here are the current ERP (Effective Radiated Power) levels for those stations:

KWGN 450KW
KCNC 1000KW
KMGH 30KW
KUSA 37KW



This make a lot of sense and answers my biggest question. It does lead to another obvious question though, why are KMGH and KUSA transmitting at such low power? Are these going to go higher power (~1000KW) in February?



Three other items to consider. First, check all your connections and make sure the center conductor is completely clean. I've seen cases where there was some insulation still adhering to the conductor, and it acted as a filter, affecting only a certain range of channels.

Second, what type of cable is being used for the long run you mentioned? Is it quad shield RG-6? If not, how easy would it be to replace it? This might only buy you a few db, but if you are right on the edge of good reception then every db helps.

Third, how many splitters are you using, if any? Are any of the splitter outputs not being used? You should attach RG-6 terminators to any unused outputs. Of course, if they are not likely to be used then you should replace or remove the splitter.

Currently the setup uses all normal (non-quad) RG6. I have the inline RS pre-amp right at the antenna, a 50ft run from the pre-amp (down my external air pipe) to my furnance room in the basement where the pre-amp power acts as a coupler (non-split) (with an additional coupler since the power is female-male rather than female-female) to another 50ft run to my distribution room (also in basement). There it connects to the input of a Motorola 15db amp and the output runs directly to the Tivo on the first floor (I am not sure of the length here since the house came this way. It is probably at least 50' and may be closer to 100') Eventually I would connect the output of the Motorola to the splitter which drives other rooms but currently I wanted to remove all splitters (aside from couplers :() to not attenuate the signal.

I am not particularly happy with my setup (and the distances) but it is a constraint I am trying to make the most of.

I think currently my biggest issue is the low transmission power of KMGH and KUSA combined with Attic Attenuation, poor pre-amp, and non-optimal cable lengths. The cable lengths should be able to be overcome with proper amping. I am not sure any other antenna would do any better given the attic and low channel power unless it has a signficant boost in the 16-17 UHF range over the VU190-XR. Since hopefully those channels will boost their power when they switch to High VHF (which the VU190-XR should do well at), I am thinking for now I will check the center conductors as mentioned, switch to a CM 7777 and then hold off until February to do anything more.

I will let you know how the CM7777 works out.

Rich

This make a lot of sense and answers my biggest question. It does lead to another obvious question though, why are KMGH and KUSA transmitting at such low power? Are these going to go higher power (~1000KW) in February?

The reason for the current difference in power is that KCNC and KWGN are using their "post-transition" facilities, i.e. they are staying on the frequencies they are currently on. They just have to shut off their analog channels at the transition. KMGH and KUSA are using their pre-transition temporary facilities. They don't want to invest a lot of money or effort into something that will go away next February. They have to shut down their analog facilities and turn on their new post-transition digital facility overnight at the transition.

So, are they going to be higher power after the transition? Yes, probably. (and no for KUSA if they don't get their maximization request approved). Currently KMGH is approved for 27KW on Channel 7 and KUSA is approved for 6KW on Channel 9. Channel 9 has made a maximization request to the FCC for approval to increase from 6 KW ERP to 45KW ERP. Note that the power levels needed for equal coverage in the high VHF band are significantly lower than what is required in the UHF band. If KUSA is approved for 45KW that will probably provide better coverage than 1000KW would on a UHF frequency. 6KW however is fairly low, although it still is probably better than the 37KW they are using on Channel 16. The FCC has already gotten back to KUSA about their application and has come up with some fairly silly objections, which KUSA has just responded to (they amended their application yesterday). I suspect that KUSA will get the approval they need in time for the transition since their application is currently being reviewed by FCC staff.


I think currently my biggest issue is the low transmission power of KMGH and KUSA combined with Attic Attenuation, poor pre-amp, and non-optimal cable lengths. The cable lengths should be able to be overcome with proper amping. I am not sure any other antenna would do any better given the attic and low channel power unless it has a signficant boost in the 16-17 UHF range over the VU190-XR. Since hopefully those channels will boost their power when they switch to High VHF (which the VU190-XR should do well at), I am thinking for now I will check the center conductors as mentioned, switch to a CM 7777 and then hold off until February to do anything more.

I will let you know how the CM7777 works out.
Rich

Sounds like a good plan. Just out of curiosity, can you get KQCK on Channel 11 (RTN network)? It is broadcasting from Horsetooth Mountain, so it will be coming in from the side of your antenna. But it might give you an indication of how well you are currently able to receive a high VHF digital signal. You may also want to check to see how well you get KMGH and KUSA's analog (NTSC) signals.

Posted by anythingwire:
Have you compared signal strengths from each antenna separately versus combining them? Is there a difference involving reception of KRMA-DT? You mention that you receive all of the available digital channels with your setup, but I'm not sure from your post that your reception is based solely on a combined antenna feed.

I'm interested in your thoughts about potential success for combining antennas for my location.

Hi mike,

I'm probably opening a can of worms, but here we go. I as an electrican like to deal with hands on real world tests. So this morning when I read your post I decided to do the tests that all the members are wondering about. I have been running CM 4228 UHF(outside on lookout mountain) with a RS 8' long VHF UHF FM(attic North and a little West) in a ranch house. I am fortunate to be living in Milliken because I have a clear line of sight to lookout mountain about 47 miles away with no big trees or buildings. From the 4228 to my distribution box is 50' and then 40' to my CM 7000 converter box, the other antenna has 30' to the box where the two RG6 QSs run backwards through an Ideal one in two out 5mhz -1ghz splitter with 4db loss. Then into a RCS (Residential Cabling System) powered video distribution unit, it is similar to the Leviton 47608-A . I think:rolleyes: it mannages the db comming in and then sends out the same signal on 6 outs with no db loss and two with 10db loss (that I don't use) those are the numbers on the unit. Now the CM 7000 box, I like it because it has a 12 program guide I also thing that the tuner chip inthe CM is as good as the Zenith's LG chip. The CM box has a bar graph with a percent number next to it, so the numbers you see below are percents.
I am not going to go to the trouble of listing subchannels because they are the same.

4228------------------------------4228+RS
2=100------------------------------2=100
4=100------------------------------4=100
5=0--------------------------------5=40
6=50-------------------------------6=22 breaking up alittle
7=100------------------------------7=90
9=100------------------------------9=80
11=90(I know cool)-----------------11=80
12=100----------------------------12=95
14=100----------------------------14=100
20=100----------------------------20=100
22=0------------------------------22=100
25=100----------------------------25=100
31=100----------------------------31=100
40=40-----------------------------40=8
50=0----(don't need)---------------50=0
53=0----(don't need)---------------53=0----Maybe if I pointed it that way.
59=100-----------------------------59=100

I also did a test straight from the antenna to the converter box. I came up with a signal of 50% for KRMA. So without the video distribution unit and combining the antennas, I would have signal strong enough to not have break up.

I know that there are dozens of variables that facter into every situation, everyone of our homes are different. My Dad lives 5 houses East of me in the exact style of house as mine. He has the same RS antenna in the attic (before I turned mine), and using the same c box. He gets better signal than me.:confused:
So where are we with all of this, I don't know about you but I have a headache.
The 2 antennas seems to working for me, I know I'm sacrificing KRMA but I'm getting that and more off of the FTA satellite.
Well Mike if it were me I wouldn't get rid of the roator its not cheep to replace. And I haven't blown anything up yet combining the two, so...;)

Tim

Anythingwire: thanks for your generous and informative post.

The 2 antennas seems to working for me, I know I'm sacrificing KRMA but I'm getting that and more off of the FTA satellite.

To clarify: what you are actually getting are the free-to-air feeds from PBS (and perhaps Montana PBS) from the satellite -- is that correct? If so, is there program guide information distributed with the FTA feeds? I can't find satellite programming information anywhere on the PBS website.

So where are we with all of this, I don't know about you but I have a headache.

A condition that many viewers in the US will share on 18 February 2009, I think...


Jim McCauley

The PBS channels have moved to a brand new satellite AMC 21 at 125.0 degrees W. I am getting 13 differnt channels. The signal strengths are great now that the new satellite came on line October 1. I don't get KRMA, they do not put there channel up on the KU band for free.

Creat TV
Kids sprout
Montana PBS
PBS central (feed)
PBS east (feed)
PBS mountain (feed)
PBS west (feed)
PBS X (national feed 1 day later)
PBS feed (slot for PBS state networks)
South Carolina PBS
PBS world
V-me
Connecticut public TV

Connecticut and South Carolina are both up there now as well? Those must be new additions... what transponder are those on? They're not listed on Lyngsat which is why I'm asking.

I've been thinking about getting into FTA but with only national raw PBS feeds, I wasn't that interested. If there are actual PBS feeds with full schedules...

- Trip

Anythingwire: thanks for your generous and informative post.
To clarify: what you are actually getting are the free-to-air feeds from PBS (and perhaps Montana PBS) from the satellite -- is that correct? If so, is there program guide information distributed with the FTA feeds? I can't find satellite programming information anywhere on the PBS website.

A condition that many viewers in the US will share on 18 February 2009, I think...


Jim McCauley

Hi Jim,
I'm getting 6 channels and 7 feeds.

The channels are : Creat TV, Kids Sprout, Mountana PBS, PBS X, PBS world, V-me

The rest are feeds, and have programming most of the time. What happens is on the hour and half hour depending on the program we get color bars untill the next program starts. Unfortunatly there is no programming guide info on any of the Ku band FTA satellites, even though the satellite receiver boxs come with program guides. I guess the networks don't feel it's important.:mad: The only thing we've found is a home school course channels that put up a PG on AMC 15.
If you find the Montana web sight you might get promgamming there.
Tim

Connecticut and South Carolina are both up there now as well? Those must be new additions... what transponder are those on? They're not listed on Lyngsat which is why I'm asking.

I've been thinking about getting into FTA but with only national raw PBS feeds, I wasn't that interested. If there are actual PBS feeds with full schedules...

- Trip

Hi Trip,
There are 6 full time channels and the rest are feeds CP TV and SC E TV are just feeds and not there al the time.
CP TV: Dfreq:12163H SR:4.444
SC E TV: Dfreq:12155H SR:4.444

If you put a motor on it you can get a bunch of channels, I get about 80 different ones that I want. But there are thousands of channel up there and alot are foreign language.

Tim

Hi All,

Just wanted to give an update on my antenna saga.

With the addition of a CM7777 pre-amp to my Radio Shack 190-XR I was able to improve the signal and get CBS an MyNetworkTV to come in. Unfortunately, ABC and NBC still didn't come in, but I at least got some signal (31 peak on Tivo which essentially means, I know the channel exists, but I can't lock it (need about 45-52 for a picture with artifacting and 52+ for stable picture, no artifacting). At this point, I returned the Antenna.

I still wanted to see if I could find an antenna locally before mail ordering. I was able to pick up an Antenna's Direct Clear Stream 2 (for about 2X what it should cost). I didn't expect it to work, but I was curious. I wasn't wrong (it didn't work) but what was very interesting was that it performed as well as the Radio Shack antenna (for the UHF HD channels I cared about) and it was extremely small in comparison.

At this point I have ordered a Winegard HD 8800. I would have preferred the CM4228 but it won't fit through my attic and I don't feel comfortable disassembling it by drilling out the rivets. I figure this should work in the short term. Post transition, I may need to replace it or supplement it with a high VHF antenna. The second shouldn't be too difficult since the CM7777 has a separate VHF input.

I will let you know how it works out.

Rich

Connecticut and South Carolina are both up there now as well? Those must be new additions... what transponder are those on? They're not listed on Lyngsat which is why I'm asking.

I've been thinking about getting into FTA but with only national raw PBS feeds, I wasn't that interested. If there are actual PBS feeds with full schedules...

- Trip

Hi Trip,

I am Jim Thomas and a partner with Tim (anythingwire) in the antenna and fta satellite business. Here's my 'three cents' worth on the dtv scene and fta scene. :p

For a little over two years now, PBS has had at least four full time channels up on FTA satellite. These were originally on AMC 3 (which will soon be gone) and have migrated to a new satellite, AMC 21 @ 125 degrees west. As Tim listed previously, PBS Create TV, PBS Kids Sprout, PBS X (the national network), PBS V-Me (the Spanish network), and PBS World are all fulltime PBS channels. There are only a handful of feeds, and even those feeds provide fulltime programming through the day. The difference is that the feeds will go to color bars at the top and bottom of the hour, rather than run program promos. It has also been mentioned that Montana PBS is on AMC 21 and is another full time channel.

Just to clarify the slots designated for CPTV and SC ETV - those are feed slots from PBS and provided for CPTV and SC ETV. Each of them go to ID slides at the top and bottom of the hour. When they are not providing any programming to their state network stations, you simply see that state networks' ID slide. There are also two other PBS feeds slots, which various state ETV networks share, such as NM PBS, TX PBS, and others. They have a regular schedule with PBS when each of those entities uses the channel for their program feed to their state affiliates.

I realize that most of the chatter on the AVS forum is about the OTA digital television transition. If persons are interested in supplementing their local digital television viewing with another FREE source, FTA satellite is the way to go.

Hi Trip,

I am Jim Thomas and a partner with Tim (anythingwire) in the antenna and fta satellite business. Here's my 'three cents' worth on the dtv scene and fta scene. :p

For a little over two years now, PBS has had at least four full time channels up on FTA satellite. These were originally on AMC 3 (which will soon be gone) and have migrated to a new satellite, AMC 21 @ 125 degrees west. As Tim listed previously, PBS Create TV, PBS Kids Sprout, PBS X (the national network), PBS V-Me (the Spanish network), and PBS World are all fulltime PBS channels. There are only a handful of feeds, and even those feeds provide fulltime programming through the day. The difference is that the feeds will go to color bars at the top and bottom of the hour, rather than run program promos. It has also been mentioned that Montana PBS is on AMC 21 and is another full time channel.

Just to clarify the slots designated for CPTV and SC ETV - those are feed slots from PBS and provided for CPTV and SC ETV. Each of them go to ID slides at the top and bottom of the hour. When they are not providing any programming to their state network stations, you simply see that state networks' ID slide. There are also two other PBS feeds slots, which various state ETV networks share, such as NM PBS, TX PBS, and others. They have a regular schedule with PBS when each of those entities uses the channel for their program feed to their state affiliates.

I realize that most of the chatter on the AVS forum is about the OTA digital television transition. If persons are interested in supplementing their local digital television viewing with another FREE source, FTA satellite is the way to go.

I don't live in the area, so apologies if I drift off-topic too much... :)

My chief concern is that I like watching the McLaughlin Group. My local PBS at home airs it at 7:30 on Friday, and the PBS at school airs it at 8:30 on Fridays. None of the national PBS feeds seem to have it except PBS World on Sunday evening (when I'm watching Fox Sunday) and on the following Wednesday morning.

I'd have a dish up yesterday if I could receive the Richmond PBS on it as I love their schedule.

In my mind, I already want to do FTA satellite. My only problem is that I doubt I can get the cable into the house. My father won't want to cut any holes or anything and I'm at a loss for what to do beyond that. (Trees surround the house so I'd have to dig a ditch and deal with a pole...)

I've thought about trying to put up a fixed dish below a motorized one for myself and hook up a few cheap boxes to it; modulate a few PBS feeds through the house for my father to watch in order to get him to go for it. I think he'll just say it's too much trouble. (I don't know how he expects to get DirecTV in the house without cutting a hole in anything)

Is it possible to get C-band stuff on a small dish? I know it's not designed for it, but I don't see any network affiliates that aren't on C-band...

- Trip

Is it possible to get C-band stuff on a small dish?

Not unless the laws of physics have changed since 1982, when I dabbled in C-band. If I understand current C-band satellite technology (which has undergone modest changes in the last quarter century), transmitted power levels are still low enough to require a Big Ugly Dish (probably a six-footer in Virginia; a bit smaller here in Colorado), even with a high-performance low-noise block. The good news is that a Ku-band feedhorn will work with a big dish as well as a small one, once you've gone to the trouble of getting the monster up.

I know it's not designed for it, but I don't see any network affiliates that aren't on C-band...

Again, my knowledge may be out of date, but aren't the network feeds and all the commercial backhaul now encrypted? Are there some affiliates that broadcast via satellite in the clear? That would be -- odd.


Jim McCauley

Again, my knowledge may be out of date, but aren't the network feeds and all the commercial backhaul now encrypted? Are there some affiliates that broadcast via satellite in the clear? That would be -- odd.


Jim McCauley

I was looking at Lyngsat and it lists:

http://www.lyngsat.com/galaxy16.html
Look at 3845H.

- Trip

Looks like I got KKTV, as my wife informed me last night that it was indeed CBS on 11.1. Conditions must have been just right, but I doubt I'll leave them on my preset channels.


When you reported potentially receiving KKTV from Colorado Springs a month ago, I wondered if I would have been able to get it also if I had been looking at that time. My CM4228 isn't as good as your VHF antenna for high VHF reception, but your antenna is indoors, and mine is outdoors, so I thought that might make the difference.

Anyway, I had planned to write some DTV scanning software to use with my HDHomeRun, and your reception report motivated me to actually do it. I've been scanning all RF channels from 2-51 for about 2 weeks now, and I finally was able to get KKTV for about 2 hours this morning. That's my first "DX" reception of a DTV station.

Ha, Does anyone know if you can use a TiVo DVR TCD 5400(or equivilant) unit to tape OTA only, WITHOUT PAYING:) the monthly fee? I don't have one, and been thinking about picking up a used one. The TiVo I have is a 35 hour DirectTV one, I read the manual and it said that OTA can't be recorded.:mad:


On a side note here is an article that mrradiohead sent me. Helena, Montana station turned or the analog and went full DTV.:)



http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/69232



__________________________
Tim
2 antennas and 2 satellites dishes

I was looking at Lyngsat and it lists:

http://www.lyngsat.com/galaxy16.html
Look at 3845H.

I'll be darned! Caribbean feeds for the commercial networks, broadcast in the clear! I would never have thought to look there.

Is there some way to check out the satellite's signal footprint?

I'm guessing that they run an Eastern Time Zone schedule. Would that be right?


Jim McCauley

I'll be darned! Caribbean feeds for the commercial networks, broadcast in the clear! I would never have thought to look there.

Is there some way to check out the satellite's signal footprint?

I'm guessing that they run an Eastern Time Zone schedule. Would that be right?


Jim McCauley

http://www.lyngsat-maps.com/maps/galaxy16_c.html

This map is why I asked if a small dish can be used for C-band stuff. Note on the right how it says "dish size" and gives 80 cm.

I'd guess so, with regard to the schedule.

- Trip

It occurs to me that we might provide a useful service to broadcasters and viewers if we on this forum posted information on 18 February 2009 as to how well we are receiving the post-transition DTV signals up here in Northern Colorado. I know that Mark Seewald, Director of Technical Services at KBDI, would certainly appreciate it. He'll be monitoring this forum for such information.

I suggest that we use a common format for our reports. For example, if I were to send such a report today, I'd probably organize it as you see below. Is this enough information? Too much?

Anyone else interested in submitting a report here on 18 February?


Jim McCauley

--------------- Proposed report format -----------------

Location: 2 miles north of Fort Collins CO
Receiver: Zenith DTT900 converter
Antenna: Terk 38 VHF/UHF in attic; one 1/4" plywood wall in signal path
Preamplifier: Leviton, 10-db gain, immediately below antenna
Downlead: RG-6 coaxial cable: 90 foot length, one splitter

Channels received:

Channel / Digital Channel / Quality

2-1 / 34 / Excellent
2-2 / 34 / Excellent
4-1 / 35 / Excellent
7-1 / 17 /Excellent
7-27 / 17 / Excellent
9-1 / 16 / Rare dropouts
9-2 / 16 / Excellent
12-1 / 38 / Occasional dropouts
12-2 / 38 / Occasional dropouts
12-3 / 38 / Occasional dropouts
14-1 / 15 / Occasional dropouts
20-1 / 19 / Excellent
22-1 / 21 / Occasional dropouts
25-1 / 29 / Occasional dropouts
31-1 / 32 / Excellent
40-1 / 40 / Excellent
59-1 / 43 / Frequent dropouts
59-2 / 43 / Frequent dropouts
59-3 / 43 / Frequent dropouts
59-4 / 43 / Frequent dropouts

Jim, you left KQCK (The Quack) off of your list. :D

Hi guys,

I'm back after a long time of not doing anything. I'm tired of not getting all this stuff in the ether and want to deploy my CM-4228 (thanks again, Leonard!) to connect to an unsubscribed Dish 942 receiver. It's nice to bury the possibility of mounting my RatShack VU-120R - it won't perform as well as the CM-4228 on any channel, as far as I can tell. (I was surprised to log an hour or so the other morning with KGWN 2.1 with it in the attic, though.)

My most convenient install point is on the roof, on my wood-clad chimney. From there, I can use a pair of diplexers I have on a satellite line or (later, if need be) mimic the existing cable runs with a new line.

Questions:
What does it take to mount the CM-4228? Specific parts would be wonderful. I have seen 4" and 12" standoffs for wall mounting at RatShack - would I also need something for the bottom? I will mount it to the corner, so it can be turned to the signal, but I'm a bear of little brain for the mounting. I don't have a lot of fun on the roof, either.

Are people getting KBDI well in Fort Collins? How's that working?

I know KRMA is a lost cause for a while after the transition, but is there hope that they will they get an HD signal in here? I crave Nova, Nature and Austin City Limits in HD/5.1. Sounds like a translator could work, a transmitter relocation could work, but a lease of some subchannel bandwidth would NOT work.

I plan to test this soon with a long cable run from my front yard; how much will getting the thing up 15 feet higher help from there?

I know, I know - finish already! :-)

Rob T

My most convenient install point is on the roof, on my wood-clad chimney. From there, I can use a pair of diplexers I have on a satellite line or (later, if need be) mimic the existing cable runs with a new line.

Questions:
What does it take to mount the CM-4228? Specific parts would be wonderful. I have seen 4" and 12" standoffs for wall mounting at RatShack - would I also need something for the bottom? I will mount it to the corner, so it can be turned to the signal, but I'm a bear of little brain for the mounting. I don't have a lot of fun on the roof, either.


Your situation looks exactly like mine. I mounted my CM4228 to my wood clad chimney. I used the Ronard 2218 Y Chimney Mount(s) (purchased from Solid Signal). You get two mounts and two metal straps that go around your chimney. the 18 in 2218 tells you the length of the strap, i.e. 18ft. You can get a 12 ft. or 24 ft. version. Measure the length around your chimney and then order whatever length is larger than you need (You can cut the strap down to the right size).

Normally (e.g. for a Yagi) you would attach an antenna mast to both mounts that clears the top of your chimney, where you would attach the antenna at the top of the mast. You could do that with the CM4228, but I chose to instead cut the mast to be about 4" taller than the antenna, and attach the mast so that it extended about 2 inches above and 2 inches below the antenna. I then attached the mounts to the chimney with the proper distance between them so I could mount the antenna between the mounts, i.e. one mount below the antenna and one mount above the antenna. Note that the mount has enough standoff between the chimney so that I was able to mount my antenna preamp behind the antenna at the level of the antenna feed.

This provides an extremely sturdy mount (note you can get cheaper, lighter weight mounts -- in fact Ronard even has a lighter weight mount, but the price difference isn't worth the savings in my opinion). The only disadvantage is that the chimney blocks signals coming from the rear, otherwise I would probably get KGWN from Cheyenne reliably (I still get it, but it drops out a lot). I really want to get KLWY after the transition, but I suspect I am going to have to mount a second antenna pointing north in order to achieve that.

Note you should use UV resistant wire ties (black), or some wire, to tie the two halfs of the reflector screen together so that they reliably contact each other. This is supposed to help with high VHF reception. Also, make sure you install the anti-turn screw on the Ronard mount, once you are sure you have the antenna aimed properly (I played around with the aiming for a few days before I installed the screw).


Are people getting KBDI well in Fort Collins? How's that working?

I get it fairly well, but it drops out sometimes. I believe that I will have better luck getting it after the transition, but that is just a guess.

I know KRMA is a lost cause for a while after the transition, but is there hope that they will they get an HD signal in here? I crave Nova, Nature and Austin City Limits in HD/5.1. Sounds like a translator could work, a transmitter relocation could work, but a lease of some subchannel bandwidth would NOT work.

I get KRMA more reliably than I get KBDI. My reception of KBDI would be better than KRMA if I aimed my antenna more towards KBDI's transmitting antenna (I know that from tests before I chose my final aim point for the antenna). I believe that my ability to get KRMA is due to 1) my location in southwest Fort Collins has clear line of sight to the transmitter, and 2) using a CM4228 outdoors at the height of a two story roof, along with a quality antenna preamp.

Anyway, if they follow through and both raise their antenna, and increase their power, I think anyone with a reasonable quality antenna will be able to get KRMA.


I plan to test this soon with a long cable run from my front yard; how much will getting the thing up 15 feet higher help from there?


Increasing height almost always helps. There are too many unknowns to know how much without actually trying the experiment. Do you have a one story or two story house? If you have a two story house the better experiment might be to hold the antenna up to an open window on the second floor.

It occurs to me that we might provide a useful service to broadcasters and viewers if we on this forum posted information on 18 February 2009 as to how well we are receiving the post-transition DTV signals up here in Northern Colorado. I know that Mark Seewald, Director of Technical Services at KBDI, would certainly appreciate it. He'll be monitoring this forum for such information.

I suggest that we use a common format for our reports. For example, if I were to send such a report today, I'd probably organize it as you see below. Is this enough information? Too much?

Anyone else interested in submitting a report here on 18 February?


I'll submit a report. My only suggestion would be to drop the reporting on all the subchannels, and just have one line for each RF channel. All of the subchannels are multiplexed within the same transport stream, there should be no difference in reception quality. If there are problems with a particular subchannel then the problem is in the studio. If you wish to report those type of problems then that should probably be reported separately, since those problems won't vary with location (and should be evident to station staff if they bother to monitor their signal).

Wow - I have my CM-4228 in my front yard, leaning casually and only roughly pointed, and I'm getting some great signal. I'm having no trouble with any of the following:

KWGN 2-1 72
KCNC 4-1 63
KGWN 5-1 64
KMGH 7-1/KZCO 7-27 66
KBDI 12-1 etc. 70
KTFD 14-1 60
KTVD 20-1 76
KDVR 22-1 72
KDEN 25-1 60 (but it won't decode on my Dish receiver)
KDVR 31-1 65
ION 59-1 etc. 95(!)

No sign of NBC or KRMA, but pointing might matter :-)

I'm pumped now!

Update: I just tweaked the aim and am seeing KUSA 9-1 at about 57% as well - not really usable at the moment. That makes 20 digital channels total.

Rob T

I mounted my CM4228 to my wood clad chimney. I used the Ronard 2218 Y Chimney Mount(s) (purchased from Solid Signal).
Thanks for all the great detail, jsmar - much appreciated. Your solution sounds good.


Anyway, if they follow through and both raise their antenna, and increase their power, I think anyone with a reasonable quality antenna will be able to get KRMA.


That's reassuring. At least KBDI seems like it will be fine.


Increasing height almost always helps. There are too many unknowns to know how much without actually trying the experiment. Do you have a one story or two story house? If you have a two story house the better experiment might be to hold the antenna up to an open window on the second floor.

I have a one-story split level. The front yard experiment does seem to have gone well :-)

Rob T

Jim, you left KQCK (The Quack) off of your list. :D

As of my last scan (6 PM on 24 November), it wasn't quacking. Signal on digital channel 11 has been at zero (again!) for a couple of weeks.

They oughta rename the company to Iniquity Broadcasting...


Jim McCauley

That's reassuring. At least KBDI seems like it will be fine.

I hope so. The station will leave digital channel 38 (in the UHF band) and relocate to digital channel 13 (VHF) at lower power. However, because it takes less power to get similar coverage at VHF frequencies, KBDI's director of engineering, Mark Seewald, is confident that their coverage will be the same as or greater than what they have had on 38.

Speaking of which: does anyone know where I can get a listing of the frequencies assigned to the digital channels? I have been assuming that the frequencies assigned to digital channels 7 through 13 are the same as those for the existing high-band analog channels -- maybe I've been talking through my hat.

For that matter, what are the frequencies for digital channels 2-6? I had assumed that VHF low-band was simply going away, but maybe I've been wrong on that, too.


Jim McCauley

The channels are the same. Analog 2 = Digital 2, as far as frequency is concerned.

- Trip

For that matter, what are the frequencies for digital channels 2-6? I had assumed that VHF low-band was simply going away, but maybe I've been wrong on that, too.
Jim McCauley

There won't be any stations on the front range that will be using RF channels 2-6, so as far as we are concerned channels 2-6 are going away. But they are not going away nationwide, i.e. there will still be stations that use those frequencies (and perhaps we might get them on rare occasion when conditions are just right, especially if you have an antenna designed for VHF-low reception).

The closest VHF low station will be KREX in Grand Junction on channel 2. We are probably more likely to get VHF-low stations 1000 miles away via E-skip than we are to get Grand Junction on the other side of the Rockies.

http://www.lyngsat-maps.com/maps/galaxy16_c.html

This map is why I asked if a small dish can be used for C-band stuff. Note on the right how it says "dish size" and gives 80 cm.

I'd guess so, with regard to the schedule.

- Trip

Trip,

Sorry to take so long in replying to your query about receiving C-band signals on an 80cm dish.

I chatted with a few acquaintances on the fta satellite forum I am on, regarding this possibility. Yes, the Caribbean network channels (New York feeds them - ABC, CBS, NBC, & Fox) are available and in-the-clear on C-band. They put out a pretty good signal. Some of the guys that use a 1.2m dish pull about 60% signal. Getting down to 80cm is a bit tricky, not so much because of the size, but because of neighboring satellites causing interference for that small of a dish. The larger the dish, the easier it is to 'zero in' on the signal. Remember that satellites are spaced at 2 degrees in the satellite arc. It might be possible, but probably tough to pull off. The other thing a person has to take into consideration is that an 80cm (and a 1.2m) dish is an offset dish and what would be required to fit a C-band lnb on an offset dish.

Speaking of which: does anyone know where I can get a listing of the frequencies assigned to the digital channels? I have been assuming that the frequencies assigned to digital channels 7 through 13 are the same as those for the existing high-band analog channels -- maybe I've been talking through my hat.

For that matter, what are the frequencies for digital channels 2-6? I had assumed that VHF low-band was simply going away, but maybe I've been wrong on that, too.


Jim McCauley

Jim,

The channels remain the same. And for that matter, there are dtv assignments for channels 2-6 nationally, just not that many. Most television stations, after many years of experience, do not care for the summertime ionospheric scatter that occurs (as hams affectionately call it 'skip'), so most have opted for higher frequencies, above channel 6.

For your reference, here is a Nashville television engineers' website that lists all of the current television assignments (Doug Smith, who I know personally). Click on the channel number for the complete listing - it reflects digital separately, then analog.

http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/b/wb9nme/tvdb/index.htm

Why doesn't anyone ever talk about getting the channels like 6.1 and 6.2? i don't see them on people's lists.

S

Why doesn't anyone ever talk about getting the channels like 6.1 and 6.2? i don't see them on people's lists.

S

Shakespeare,

Maybe its because its hard to pull them in for many persons in northern Colorado. Where do you live?

I live in Milliken and have no trouble getting KRMA-DT 6-1 and V-Me 6-2. I get about 60-70% signal. I'm using a CM 4228 @ 25', with a 12db amp.

I'm in north Loveland with an attic Winegard 1713 VHF, 4228, and a CM 7777. After the two houses to the south, it's a clear shot to just about any tower. That 6.1 has amazing HD documentaries with NO LOGOS!

While I'm here...is anyone getting the digital version of 27 from Wyoming? I'm wondering if, after the switchover, I'll be able to get it with a fixed 4228 pointing at Lookout Mountain. I know the 4228 does pretty well with signals from behind, but the analog 27 is pretty bad, sometimes unwatchable, right now.

S

While I'm here...is anyone getting the digital version of 27 from Wyoming? I'm wondering if, after the switchover, I'll be able to get it with a fixed 4228 pointing at Lookout Mountain. I know the 4228 does pretty well with signals from behind, but the analog 27 is pretty bad, sometimes unwatchable, right now.

S

I have a 4221 (4 bay) fixed to the north, so that I can get KGWN-DT 5-1, mostly for football. They sometimes run different games from what KCNC-DT 4-1 is running.

I have watched the signal meter on the Zenith DTT900 converter box, parked on UHF 28, to see how much signal I can get of KLWY-DT 27-1. Most of the time the signal is barely there, but it occasionally spikes to 25-30%. They currently are running an STA of 6.240 kw. When they flash-cut on Feb. 17th, they are authorized to go to 500 kw. I expect we won't have any trouble getting them in northern Colorado. On warmer days, I have already had the Alliance NE public television station (KTNE-DT 13-1 <UHF 24>) in several times and they are now running at full power, 287 kw. They are much further away than Cheyenne.

Jim,

check out page 45 of the pdf at this link, it is a table of all VHF/UHF frequencies:
www.solidsignal.com/manuals/AntInstallGuide.pdf

Wow - I have my CM-4228 in my front yard, leaning casually and only roughly pointed, and I'm getting some great signal.

One more set of observations and a question. I connected my antenna amp (a CM-7775) to see how it changed things, and I was happy with the results. All of the signal measured higher on my box, some from e.g. 60 to 70, and it took NBC from marginal to fairly solid in my brief testing. That makes me think I could benefit from a preamp. The CM-7775 is not the right choice, of course - it's UHF only, so if I deploy it, it'll block VHF when KUSA/KMGH/KBDI go back down at the cutover.

So - if I get an amp, should I maximize gain or hold back a bit in case of overload? There are signals nearby, but KQCK is off to the side and KGWN Cheyenne is in back. I'm currently looking at two Winegard choices:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=03&CAT=&PROD=SAP8275
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=03&CAT=&PROD=SAP8700

Any thoughts?

Rob T

I have the higher-gain Winegard amp and I think it was overloading on the Denver analog channels 7 and 9. Results improved when I disconnected it. It didn't seem to have much effect on the digital channels that were on the air at that time. I may experiment with it again after Feb. 17. Unfortunately, I mounted it up too high to conveniently switch it in and out.

Mark

So - if I get an amp, should I maximize gain or hold back a bit in case of overload? There are signals nearby, but KQCK is off to the side and KGWN Cheyenne is in back. I'm currently looking at two Winegard choices:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=03&CAT=&PROD=SAP8275
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=03&CAT=&PROD=SAP8700

Any thoughts?



I have the Winegard AP 8283, which is discontinued. It is the 300 ohm equivalent of the AP 8275. I haven't had any problems with overload, although the signal strength meter on my HDHomeRun is pegged at 100 for most channels. Whether or not overload will be a problem is partly a function of the devices you hook up to the preamp. If things worked well with your CM 7775 I think you should be fine.

Note, the strongest signal you will probably have to deal with will be KFCT when it moves to its new location and starts to put out the 825KW ERP they have been approved for. They will be coming in from the side of your antenna, similar to KQCK, although the KFCT transmitter is a little further to the north.

US Cable changed their channel lineup as of today. I posted the link back a page or two...

There are now 4 in-the-clear QAM HD channels that I've been able to find so far:

KCNC
KMGH
KUSA
KDVR

No PBS thusfar. :mad: The four networks showed up on channels 93-94 (and subchannels). Bloomberg is gone (it was there for a while). I'll report back if I find anything else.

I have a 4220 (4 bay) fixed to the north, so that I can get KGWN-DT 5-1, mostly for football. They sometimes run different games from what KCNC-DT 4-1 is running.

I have watched the signal meter on the Zenith DTT900 converter box, parked on UHF 28, to see how much signal I can get of KLWY-DT 27-1. Most of the time the signal is barely there, but it occasionally spikes to 25-30%. They currently are running an STA of 6.240 kw. When they flash-cut on Feb. 17th, they are authorized to go to 500 kw. I expect we won't have any trouble getting them in northern Colorado. On warmer days, I have already had the Alliance NE public television station (KTNE-DT 13-1 <UHF 24>) in several times and they are now running at full power, 287 kw. They are much further away than Cheyenne.

That's funny. When I dial in 28, all I get is a hispanic religious channel. Hmmm...

I've been monitoring this thread for quite some time to gather input from folks in Fort Collins and Northern Colorado regarding their success with OTA HD reception, and just last week I made my first attempt at receiving OTA signals, so I thought I'd share my limited but successful experience.

I get HD from Directv using the HR21, and I have three SD Directivo boxes in the house as well. I also have an HR10-250 box that I've been using to record mpeg2 HBO and Showtime as long as it's still available, but I decided to see what it's OTA performance would be since it has an OTA HD tuner. I'm located in southwest Fort Collins, about a half mile west of Taft Hill and a half mile south of 38E (Harmony). I'm up on a ridge at the northwest corner of Cathy Fromme Prairie for those who know the area. I have a spectacular, unobstructed view to the south (as well as east) which is where my dish is mounted. When I originally ran the coax for the dish I ran two extra cables for future expansion, so I had the cabling in place to try an antenna.

After installing the antenna and configuring the HR10-250 I was able to pull in several channels, all with signals near the 90's. I'm getting CW(2.1?), CBS (both Denver and Cheyenne), NBC and Fox. I'm unable to get an ABC signal. I'm also getting several other stations that I'm not interested in (Spanish language, etc.)

So here's the fun part: My antenna is a small bowtie antenna that came with an old TV that I strapped to the dish bracket. You know the kind, it's about a foot wide and has a flat wire coming out of it; about a $2 antenna. I used a push-on 75/300 ohm transformer to connect the antenna leads to my coax, and connected it on the other end to the HR10-250. There is one barrel connector and a wall plate also in line on the coax, which I'm guessing is about 70' long.

I'm amazed that I was able to get such good reception, and I've used the DVR to record several shows so far with no problems. I've read here that a couple of the lookout mountain stations will soon switch to VHF, so my bowtie solution will likely quit working for those. Given the level of signals I'm already getting, what would folks recommend for a small sized antenna I can use to hopefully pull in ABC and future VHF signals? Given my results so far I don't think I'll need a large attic antenna, just a better performing VHF/UHF model that I can attach next to my dish. The Squareshooter has appeal because of it's low profile, but I thought I'd see what others might recommend for this situation.

I'm amazed that I was able to get such good reception, and I've used the DVR to record several shows so far with no problems. I've read here that a couple of the lookout mountain stations will soon switch to VHF, so my bowtie solution will likely quit working for those. Given the level of signals I'm already getting, what would folks recommend for a small sized antenna I can use to hopefully pull in ABC and future VHF signals? Given my results so far I don't think I'll need a large attic antenna, just a better performing VHF/UHF model that I can attach next to my dish. The Squareshooter has appeal because of it's low profile, but I thought I'd see what others might recommend for this situation.

Looks like you live in an nearby neighborhood to me (I live in Taft Canyon). Since you have a little more height than me, you should be able to get as good if not better reception than me, with one caveat. As you approach the foothills you may lose line of sight to some transmitters. In particular you may lose KBDI, since that is one of the weaker (but still reasonably reliable) signals I get. There is an area of the foothills just south of us that juts out enough to potentially block LOS to Lookout Mountain if you get too close to the foothills. But based on what you are getting with your small bowtie, you are probably not in that situation.

I know you are looking for small, but most small antennas are UHF only. I'm using a CM 4228, which was designed for UHF, but still does a good job on high VHF stations. That may be a little bigger than you wanted, but it is still smaller than most Yagi's. You can mount a CM 4228 on a satellite dish mast, but not on the same mast as an existing satellite as far as I can see. I have mine installed on the side of my chimney. Note that the CM 4228 has been replaced by the CM 4228HD, which is wider. It supposedly will have better high VHF reception. However, noone has properly reviewed it yet (Most online antenna distributors just got it in stock within the last week for the first time). So, if you are willing to consider an antenna as big as the CM4228HD you may want to wait a few weeks until someone has actually bought and tested it (I would really like to see someone compare the 4228 and 4228HD under identical conditions).

Note, if you care about KRMA (PBS) you should be able to get it from your location, but most likely only with a larger antenna like the CM4228.

That's funny. When I dial in 28, all I get is a hispanic religious channel. Hmmm...

That can't be a digital channel. You must be viewing a channel from your analog tuner.

That can't be a digital channel. You must be viewing a channel from your analog tuner.

Oh, yeah, it's analog, straight from antenna to TV. So how do I tell it "look for the digital 28 and leave the analog 28 alone"? I thought that, for now, all digital channels were a number followed by "point X."

S

Oh, yeah, it's analog, straight from antenna to TV. So how do I tell it "look for the digital 28 and leave the analog 28 alone"? I thought that, for now, all digital channels were a number followed by "point X."

S

First, you need to be using a digital tv or set top box (converter box) for digital television. An analog tuner is going to find ONLY analog signals.

That said, determine if your tv is an analog-only or a conversion tv (one with an analog tuner AND a digital tuner in it). It it's an analog tv ONLY, then you're definitely going to have to get a converter box (like the coupon ones the government is offering the $40 coupon for). THe converter box tunes ONLY RF channels for the digital signal. IF your tv is a conversion tv, then you need to look in your user manual and see how you use the remote to switch to the digital tuner. From your previous comments, its hard to determine if you have a tv that has a digital tuner in it.

Regarding the digital signal for KLWY-DT Cheyenne, they broadcast on RF 28 and the digital tuner remaps the channel to 27-1. The information the station puts in their PSIP stream tells the tv to tell you, you're really watching 27-1 (and all other digital channels do the same thing, as another example - KGWN-DT broadcasts on RF 30 but remaps to 5-1).

Anyway, you have a little over two months to be ready for the switch and then all of the analogs you are currently watching will be gone (as of Feb. 17).

If it is a digital TV, try tuning manually to 28-1 or 28-3 with your remote.

- Trip

First, you need to be using a digital tv or set top box (converter box) for digital television. An analog tuner is going to find ONLY analog signals.

That said, determine if your tv is an analog-only or a conversion tv (one with an analog tuner AND a digital tuner in it). It it's an analog tv ONLY, then you're definitely going to have to get a converter box (like the coupon ones the government is offering the $40 coupon for). THe converter box tunes ONLY RF channels for the digital signal. IF your tv is a conversion tv, then you need to look in your user manual and see how you use the remote to switch to the digital tuner. From your previous comments, its hard to determine if you have a tv that has a digital tuner in it.

Regarding the digital signal for KLWY-DT Cheyenne, they broadcast on RF 28 and the digital tuner remaps the channel to 27-1. The information the station puts in their PSIP stream tells the tv to tell you, you're really watching 27-1 (and all other digital channels do the same thing, as another example - KGWN-DT broadcasts on RF 30 but remaps to 5-1).

Anyway, you have a little over two months to be ready for the switch and then all of the analogs you are currently watching will be gone (as of Feb. 17).

It's a digital tuner in the TV. I was confused because when watching 27 they say that their digital channel is 28. No "point X" or anything. You said you parked on 28, and were sometimes getting 25-30%. But were you really on 28, or 27.1 or the like?

It's a digital tuner in the TV. I was confused because when watching 27 they say that their digital channel is 28. No "point X" or anything. You said you parked on 28, and were sometimes getting 25-30%. But were you really on 28, or 27.1 or the like?

I am using a Zenith DTT900 digital tv converter box. I can go into the setup menu and access the direct RF channel. In this case, I was tuned to channel 28. I have a Channel Master 4221 4-bay antenna parked north to Cheyenne. I also have a Channel Master 4228 8-bay antenna aimed at Lookout Mountain for the Denver channels. I have the 4228 on an antenna rotator, thus, I have the ability to move it to different directions.

The couple of times I have seen signal strength on RF 28 (KLWY-DT's signal), they have never came in strong enough for the converter box to decode them or read the PSIP data. That said, the converter box wouldn't 'remap' to 27.1, without having the necessary information from KLWY-DT's PSIP data that would tell the converter box to 'remap' the channel number.

I should do early morning scans more often. This morning, I picked
up KCNC 4-1 and KWGN 2-1 on my not-very-good attic antenna. I
wonder if all the snow locally is making ground conductivity better or
the cold air is clearer or something. Kinda nice; I have not really had
the chance to pick up either of these before.

Still need to get my CM-4228 on my roof whenever the snow melts.

Rob T

If you are (as I am) in an advanced state of mourning over the coming absence of PBS programming in Northern Colorado, take a look at this website:

http://www.pbs.org/video/?nav=vid

It's the hub for streaming video from PBS. The shows are put up on the site on a relatively delayed basis -- for example, the current version of _Nightly Business Report_ is not available until 6:30 PM Colorado time, an hour after it is broadcast on KRMA (analog 6). On my computer, the audio is great but the video is pretty jerky. It's a bit better better on my wife's computer, which has a Matrox video card. In any case, it's actually less noisy and somewhat more viewable than the crappy, noise-laden analog signal we've gotten from KRMA for all these years...

Check it out, and let me know what you think of the image quality, audio and timeliness of this service. In any report, please include the speed of your Internet connection -- we are limited to 1.5 Mbit/sec from Qwest out here in the sticks. (Actual download rate is about 1.2 Mb/sec.)

This may be the only reasonably low-cost way to get certain PBS programming up here for some time.


Jim McCauley

If you are (as I am) in an advanced state of mourning over the coming absence of PBS programming in Northern Colorado, take a look at this website:

http://www.pbs.org/video/?nav=vid

It's the hub for streaming video from PBS. The shows are put up on the site on a relatively delayed basis -- for example, the current version of _Nightly Business Report_ is not available until 6:30 PM Colorado time, an hour after it is broadcast on KRMA (analog 6). On my computer, the audio is great but the video is pretty jerky. It's a bit better better on my wife's computer, which has a Matrox video card. In any case, it's actually less noisy and somewhat more viewable than the crappy, noise-laden analog signal we've gotten from KRMA for all these years...

Check it out, and let me know what you think of the image quality, audio and timeliness of this service. In any report, please include the speed of your Internet connection -- we are limited to 1.5 Mbit/sec from Qwest out here in the sticks. (Actual download rate is about 1.2 Mb/sec.)

This may be the only reasonably low-cost way to get certain PBS programming up here for some time.


Jim McCauley

Hi Jim,
Thanks for the PBS link I am always interested in web sights were we can watch TV for free. I watched one show and had no problems my internet speed is 5mbps download speed with US cable. Quest in my area can only give me 128kbps which I think is a joke for high speed.
There are a few other things to concider like how much ram do you have in your computer is there other windows open or programs running. I was using my laptop Pentium 4 2ghz with 2 gib ram.

Tim

(Regarding the PBS streaming video from http://www.pbs.org/video/?nav=vid)

I watched one show and had no problems my internet speed is 5mbps download speed with US cable.

The quality varies from program to program. _Washington Week_ at 220 kbit/sec (Real Media or Windows Media) is blocky. _NewsHour_ and _Nightly Business Report_ (probably Windows Media Streams, data rates unknown) look better. Basic video looks like 320x240 SIF, although _WW_ may be grainier than that. Audio on all is very good. I get comparable results under Windows Media Center and Ubuntu Linux.

Quest in my area can only give me 128kbps which I think is a joke for high speed.

Ugh. That is probably an ISDN connection. Milliken is probably a long way from a central office, so DSL provisioning is impossible.

There are a few other things to consider like how much ram do you have in your computer

3 GB.

is there other windows open or programs running.

No other windows.

I was using my laptop Pentium 4 2ghz with 2 gib ram.

AMD Sempron 2600 (1.7 GHz). The video card (PNY NVIDIA GeForce 5200 64 MB RAM) may also be a factor. It plays DVDs well, but it can't run HD broadcasts from the ATSC tuner card cleanly, so it may also have troubles with doing its bit for streaming video.


Jim McCauley

In any case, it's actually less noisy and somewhat more viewable than the crappy, noise-laden analog signal we've gotten from KRMA for all these years...

How true! I have about 10 layers of shadowing off to the right of the primary image.

Check it out, and let me know what you think of the image quality, audio and timeliness of this service. In any report, please include the speed of your Internet connection -- we are limited to 1.5 Mbit/sec from Qwest out here in the sticks. (Actual download rate is about 1.2 Mb/sec.)

Jim McCauley

Thanks for the link.

I watched parts of several different segments including Nature, Frontline, American Experience, Nightly Business Report and the News Hour. All loaded very quickly and played without more than an occasional momentary stutter. Video quality was understandably poor when expanded to full screen on my machines. G5 Mac with a 1600 x 1000 monitor and my G4 Mac Laptop with a 1440 x 960 display.

Video quality is much better on http://www.hulu.com/, but there is no PBS content except for NOVA.

Download speed at the time I watched was around 4 Mbps.
The download always exceeded the play speed by 4 - 6 times.

My machines are configured as follows:
Desktop: MAC G5 Dual 2.0 Ghz 3.5 GB RAM with a GeForce FX 5200 video card.
Laptop: MAC G4 1.67 Ghz 2 GB Ram with an ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 video card.

I watched parts of several different segments including Nature, Frontline, American Experience,

I can get those programs and _Nova_ (albeit on a delayed basis) on KBDI-DT (12.1), so I'm not so concerned about them.

Nightly Business Report and the News Hour.

These and _Washington Week_ are the ones I will miss most after the transition, and they are important to the rest of my family as -- we watch them together, and the content is usually a topic of dinner conversation.

Video quality was understandably poor when expanded to full screen on my machines.

Since these are primarily "talking head" shows, the image quality is less important to me.

Video quality is much better on http://www.hulu.com/, but there is no PBS content except for NOVA.

Hulu is a great service. It's the primary reason I would go shopping for a higher-speed Internet connection. I've spoken with the Qwest marketers about selling DSL lines in channel-bonded pairs, but so far, they aren't interested in the service, at least here. There is some evidence that they've been looking into it, though:

http://forum.cabletv.com/iptv-internet-protocol-tv/11756-qwest-explores-dsl-channel-bonding.html


Jim McCauley

Still need to get my CM-4228 on my roof whenever the snow melts.


It's up! Tim (anythingwire) came up yesterday to install my 4228, and it's working great. Tim was great to talk to and made it all look easy. My favorite part was that with his first take on aiming, he pretty much nailed it, because KRMA 6-1 showed up in my first scan. We tried to tweak that a bit, but only improved it a point or two. My Lookout signals are maybe not as strong as they might be, but I'm really glad to get KRMA. At the moment, I'm getting more than I could expect, except for the known-impaired KMGH 7.1. Here's what I'm getting on my Dish 942 signal quality meter with no preamp:

2-1 80%
4-1 65%
5-1 70%
6-1 65%
7-1 MIA
9-1 65%
12-1 65%
14-1 100%
20-1 70%
22-1 80%
25-1 100%
31-1 70%
41-1 55%
53-1 57%
59-1 100%

41-1 and 53-1 are surprises, and they don't actually work - on this box, any signal below about 60% is flaky. So I could use a bit more margin on a number of channels, but this is pretty good. Post transition, on a warm day, I may experiment with a VHF/UHF preamp to see if I can improve my numbers without issues. I will sometime soon also try putting my UHF-only preamp in the line inside to see if it helps at all.

So I'll say it again - Tim did a great job for me, and I recommend him unreservedly!

Rob T

Our neighborhood zombie, KQCK-DT, was transmitting a carrier this afternoon, but no decodable content.

If somebody has PSIP analysis software, you might take a look at 11-1 to see if there is anything there other than a carrier.


Jim McCauley

Our neighborhood zombie, KQCK-DT, was transmitting a carrier this afternoon, but no decodable content.

If somebody has PSIP analysis software, you might take a look at 11-1 to see if there is anything there other than a carrier.
Jim McCauley

They've been transmitting since December 2nd. However, they are just sending "stuffing" packets, i.e. the empty fill packets that are normally added to the rest of the transport stream to bring the bandwidth up to the standard bandwidth for an ATSC channel.

It seemed to make sense for a few days, i.e. if they were doing some testing (and on Dec. 3 they went down for a short bit, indicating that was what they were doing). But now it just seems like a waste of power.

I was just flipping through the channels and noticed KQCK-DT 11-1 is back on the air. For how long, I guess we will see.

Tim

More fun - today at lunch time I dug out my old Hughes HR10-250 Directv Tivo. I had had Directv some years back, and the miserable state of HD plus the Directv/Tivo split made me cancel it and mothball the gear, nice though it was. I'd heard you could use the HR10-250 as a recorder without a subscription, and was intrigued.

I'd never taken out the Directv dish, though I had pilfered two of the four lines, so I was able to get the HR10-250 connected again, and then scanned for OTA signals. The verdict is that the HR10-250 isn't quite as sensitive as the Dish unit, but that it benefits more from my CM-7775 UHF preamp, so I'm really getting pretty similar results. I'm still not seeing that KMGH 7.1 is getting anything up here, but all the others are good.

What's nicest about this is the HR10-250 is getting a program guide from the satellites all the time, will record on two tuners, and puts program details into the recording. My un-subbed Dish has just one tuner and labels everything "Digital service". I don't know if seasons passes work, since the guide data takes a long time to download and process, but this looks to be a good OTA DVR solution - at the cost of having a dish pointing at a Directv sat, of course.

Rob T

I posted on the Denver group, but I thought I'd post here also to let everyone know that KMGH and KUSA are broadcasting digitally on RF channels 7 and 9 tonight. KUSA is at such a low power that I can't really get it, whereas KMGH is about equal to where they were on RF17 before Sunday (i.e. much better than they are now on RF17).

If you wondered why KQCK-DT is so flakey, here is some news from Arkansas (where EM is based) that goes a long way toward explaining the situation:

http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article.aspx?aID=110528&page=1

It's a four-page story. Look in particular near the bottom of page 3 under "FCC Investigation."

Geez. I've called this to the attention of the FCC field office in Denver and remided them that in spite of its return to the air, KQCK-DT's PSIP data is so screwed up that one of my converter boxes can't detect it at all.


Jim McCauley

Just hooked up the Zenith 901 converter box to my VCR. My TV is digital but I still wanted to be able to record to tape after the switchover. The Zenith is more sensitive than my new Panasonic TV, as it's picking up 11.1

S

The Zenith is more sensitive than my new Panasonic TV, as it's picking up 11.1

When? KQCK-DT (11.1) has been off the air (again!) for a couple of days.


Jim McCauley

Dang! Last week's preamp gambit didn't work out.

I have two HD receivers that have somewhat different characteristics, and I have a temporary solution I'm doing well with. I currently have my roof-mounted CM-4228 feeding into a Channel Master CM-7775 preamp, but the amp is in my family room, not on my roof because it's a nice VHF filter and I'll care come Feb. 17. I then split the signal in two for my Dish 942 and my Directv HR10-250 receivers. Without the preamp, I can't split at all, and I can't really get stable signals to the HR10-250 alone, either. The Dish handles some channels better; for example, it likes 5.1 from Cheyenne, and the HR10-250 doesn't now. My guess is multipath. But overall, I'm happy with this except when I think of post-transition.

To handle post-transition, I went after a VHF/UHF preamp to replace the CM-7775. I picked out a Winegard 8275, which has similar gain for UHF, but something about it is not as good as the CM-7775 for my current signals. At the moment, this helps get KQCK on the rare days they transmit, but I lose the reliable KRMA and KUSA access I have now (sigh), plus KWHD and KRMT (no big deal, of course). With this preamp, I lose KRMA after transition, until they solve things. I know mounting the preamp outside could help, but that's unlikely on Feb 17.

So I'm thinking of taking up Solid Signal's returns policy to try another preamp. What are the odds that the CM-7777 or CM-7778 would help me? Does anyone know why there are two models so similar at the same price point, and how to contrast them? They both have separate or combined VHF and UHF inputs and similar (though not identical) gain figures.

Rob T

So I'm thinking of taking up Solid Signal's returns policy to try another preamp. What are the odds that the CM-7777 or CM-7778 would help me? Does anyone know why there are two models so similar at the same price point, and how to contrast them? They both have separate or combined VHF and UHF inputs and similar (though not identical) gain figures.
Rob, you might want to post this question on the Antenna, Rotator, Booster/PreAmp thread on the HDTV Tech Forum.

So I'm thinking of taking up Solid Signal's returns policy to try another preamp. What are the odds that the CM-7777 or CM-7778 would help me? Does anyone know why there are two models so similar at the same price point, and how to contrast them? They both have separate or combined VHF and UHF inputs and similar (though not identical) gain figures.
Rob T

The CM-7778 only has a combined input, i.e. it does not have separate inputs like the CM-7777 does.

The CM-7778 only has a combined input, i.e. it does not have separate inputs like the CM-7777 does.

The Channel Master 7778 has a VHF separate input and UHF combined input. The only differants between the 7777 and the 7778 is the db gain. See the attached image I took of the new one I just got.


7777_________________________7778

VHF gain 23_________________VHF gain 16
UHF gain 26_________________UHF gain 23

I also got 4 of the new 4228HD's and 3 are already sold:). I plan on doing a test at my house to see how it compairs to the 4228. Im going out of town next weak so the test will have to be after that:D. I'm really hoping that after Feb. 17 no one will have to run preamps(those that have antennas outside).

Tim

The Channel Master 7778 has a VHF separate input and UHF combined input. The only differants between the 7777 and the 7778 is the db gain. See the attached image I took of the new one I just got.


OK, I was just going by the comparison chart at Solid Signal, which must be wrong.

Rob, you might want to post this question on the Antenna, Rotator, Booster/PreAmp thread on the HDTV Tech Forum.

Thanks for the pointer - I did so, and a couple of people gave me some good detail on what's probably going on - that the new preamp is more prone to overload and that a different model might work a whole lot better. This is good information; what a good board this is! Here's a link to the page, for those interested:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15342471#post15342471

Rob T

When? KQCK-DT (11.1) has been off the air (again!) for a couple of days.


Jim McCauley

It would have been there on December 15...guess it's gone again.

S

Ha guys,
I just wanted to give an update to my 2 antenna combining situation. I found a Steren Fast Home TV combiner/splitter Module on ebay. It has 2 inputs and six outputs with a 20db amp. Its working great and I'm not having any over load problems yet. In fact I'm getting KRMA in steady at about 40-50 persent where before was only 20-30 persent with break up. It's a great way to combine two antennas, I hope I can keep it come Feb. 17.

Re: KQCK-DT:

It would have been there on December 15...guess it's gone again.

And it's back now, and has been for about a week.

I suspect what's going on is that Equity Media can sometimes pay for their satellite distribution, but sometimes they can't. When the satellite company doesn't get paid, KQCK-DT gets cut off.


Jim McCauley

Well, RTN won't be on KQCK for very long.

http://www.tvnewsday.com/articles/2009/01/05/daily.5/

- Trip

Well, RTN won't be on KQCK for very long.

http://www.tvnewsday.com/articles/2009/01/05/daily.5/

What a howler! This is the best soap opera related to TV...

I checked out RTN's affiliate map at http://www.myretrotv.com/affiliates.html, and it doesn't make a lot of sense as far as Colorado is concerned. They list their affiliate as KQDK-CA in Denver on digital 11.1 and "Channel 39," presumably analog. I thought that 39 went off the air last year due to an equipment failure, which they lamely reported to the FCC.

As for 11.1, the only such transmitter within 100-odd miles of Denver is west of Fort Collins on Horsetooth Mountain. Oddly enough, the nominal (and notably unreliable) owner of that facility is Denver Broadcasting, Inc. Odder still is the fact that the company is licensed in Wyoming(!). Last time I checked, Denver Broadcasting was still owned by Equity Media. For how lo9ng that will continue to be the case in anyone's guess.

As Daffy Duck once said, "Har, har. It is to laugh."


Jim McCauley

To clarify (I hope):

KQDK-CA is a blazing 35 kW analog LP that covers most of metro Denver on channel 39. The last time I checked, it was an RTN affiliate. To the best of my knowledge, it has not had any outages.

KQCK 11 is the digital counterpart of KQCK 33 analog. KQCK 33's transmitter failed and an FCC filing on 6-30-08 "requested" it go dark. KQCK digital should remap to 33, but we all know it doesn't since PSIP is virtually non-existant for this station. The City of License (COL) of KQCK is Cheyenne. They (Equity) placed the digital transmitter near Ft. Collins so they could still cover their COL and reach metro Denver. Probably a smart move, but they probably won't be around to take advantage of it. Some other owner will.

All of these stations are owned by Denver Broadcasting/Equity. Apparently, the web listing is accurate in linking KQCK 11 and KQDK 39 since they have common ownership, cover metro Denver, and transmit RTN programming.

So the FCC created their new "fill-in" translator service. Guess which station is the first to apply to use it?

If you didn't guess KRMA, you weren't the only one, but they've asked for a 10 kW signal on channel 47 in Fort Collins. They filed an application as well as an STA to start operating it ASAP.

So maybe KRMA will be getting their act together up in the northern part of the market.

Application: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1287498&Service=LD&Form_id=346&Facility_id=14040

STA: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1287505&Service=LD&Form_id=911&Facility_id=14040

- Trip

^ Looks like the translator will be on Horsetooth Mountain. Wonder if they're taking over KQCK's transmitter... ;)

^ Looks like the translator will be on Horsetooth Mountain. Wonder if they're taking over KQCK's transmitter... ;)

The coordinates given in the application put them just very slightly west of the KQCK tower. There is only 3 seconds of angle difference between KQCK and the KRMA application so I would suspect that they are going on the existing tower.

Wow! I can see it from my front door.

KQCK is still off the air this morning.

Wow! I can see it from my front door.

...as can I, except from the back deck instead of the front door. This is a step in the right direction for service in Northern Colorado. However, the decision to drop HD programming has pissed me off enough to prevent me from becoming a donor again.

One step forward, two back. *sigh*

^ Looks like the translator will be on Horsetooth Mountain. Wonder if they're taking over KQCK's transmitter... ;)

Doubtful. They have requested UHF operation on digital channel 47.

Too bad, really. They might have obtained better coverage at lower power if they had gotten the VHF 11 spot.


Jim McCauley

However, the decision to drop HD programming has pissed me off enough to prevent me from becoming a donor again.

I counsel patience. RMPBS is almost certainly in the process of installing later-generation encoding equipment, which may enable them to restore HD programming.


Jim McCauley

While I'm happy with the possibility of KRMA right near town, I worry about the details. I get KRMA now, and I presume I'd lose it when they A) fire up the translator and B) turn their power down to 115KW (sigh). But if I still get two signals: will they both proclaim to be 6-1, 6-2 and 6-3? What will receivers typically do to resolve two channels mapping to the same one? I believe there's a unique broadcast ID in the stream somewhere, but sort of live in horror to think what my two different receivers will do with this situation.

While I'm happy with the possibility of KRMA right near town, I worry about the details. I get KRMA now, and I presume I'd lose it when they A) fire up the translator and B) turn their power down to 115KW (sigh). But if I still get two signals: will they both proclaim to be 6-1, 6-2 and 6-3? What will receivers typically do to resolve two channels mapping to the same one? I believe there's a unique broadcast ID in the stream somewhere, but sort of live in horror to think what my two different receivers will do with this situation.

The power is at 115 kW now. :confused:

In theory, it should map to 6-x and you'd be presented with two copies of it.

- Trip

The power is at 115 kW now. :confused:

In theory, it should map to 6-x and you'd be presented with two copies of it.

- Trip

If KRMA specifies the same mappings as what they specify in their signal on RF 18 then there will be problems. This is an area that is not covered in the standards, so whether or not you will be presented with two copies or not will be a function of each model tuner.

From experience, on the night when KMGH and KUSA were testing their digital service on their VHF stations, while still broadcasting on their temporary digital frequencies, the results were mixed.

On my Zenith DTT 901 the behavior was exactly as you said, i.e. for KMGH I had two 7-1's and two 7-27's in a row. That's probably the best way to handle this situation, although it is still likely to confuse people.

On my DTVpal things were much worse. It took me a while to figure out what was happening, i.e. I was quite confused at first. But, basically there was no way to get the DTVpal to enable both broadcasts, and it was very difficult to choose the specific one I wanted, even with the manual features that the DTVpal has. Part of the problem is that what it says it is doing during the scan is not what it really does. When I did a full rescan it first found KMGH on RF7 and mapped it properly, it then found KMGH on RF17 and said it was mapping it to 70-1. But when the scan was done there was no 70-1, and I eventually realized that what I was watching on 7-1 was the signal from RF17 not RF7, i.e. the last channel found overrode the first (I was only able to determine this by the different signal strengths, which was significantly different for KUSA). So, if you want to use the lower RF channel then you have a problem. My first thought was to try to get the DTVpal in a state where there were no channels and then manually add the ones I wanted. So, I disconnected the antenna and did a full rescan. But the DTVpal would have none of that. If it doesn't find any channels then it won't proceed with allowing you to do any setup, i.e. when you start from a full reset you can only manually add stations once you have found at least one station automatically.

So, I eventually tried disconnecting the antenna during the initial scan for enough time for the scan to have passed most of the RF channels and plugged it in in time for it to get the last few. I was then able to manually add the channels on RF7 and RF9. This is certainly not a very friendly way of dealing with the issue.

I am sure that other tuners will handle this situation in yet other ways. I'm not sure what the right answer should be, i.e. how KRMA should handle this problem.

Given that it's a "fill-in" translator that is licensed under the same license as KRMA-DT, I'm not sure how else they would be allowed to map it.

I've been told the Zenith's behavior is "correct" and any other box that can't handle it is not in compliance with standards, but I've never researched to confirm that.

- Trip

Given that it's a "fill-in" translator that is licensed under the same license as KRMA-DT, I'm not sure how else they would be allowed to map it.


The only FCC/ATSC standard is what the display major number should be. So one solution might be to map their three subchannels on RF18 to 6-1, 6-2, and 6-3, and then map the same three channels that they are sending on RF47 as 6-4, 6-5 and 6-6.

I'm not saying that is optimal, But I bet most tuners will handle that appropriately. It does cause a problem for TV program guides though.


I've been told the Zenith's behavior is "correct" and any other box that can't handle it is not in compliance with standards, but I've never researched to confirm that.
- Trip
I'm fairly certain there is no FCC or ATSC standard for this, but there may be some other standard out there that does specify this behaviour.

I thought each station (transmitter/antenna) under ATSC has a unique identifier in its PSIP. For example, it is "possible" to receive two 5-1's in this area - RF30 from Cheyenne and RF42 from the Springs. Both would remap to 5-1. We're also probably going to see two 27-1's after analog shutoff - the current 7-27 subchannel that is moving to channel 17 after the analog cutoff, and KLWY from Cheyenne, which is moving back to its analog channel 27 after cutoff. I raised this question on another thread, it seems a couple of years ago and, as best as I can recollect, posts were consistent that duplicate remapped channels were not a problem due to the unique PSIP identifier. The channel 47 transmitter should have an identifier in its PSIP that differentiates it from the channel 18 transmission.

When I bought my second Accurian digital tuner from Radio Shack, it must have been a returned unit since all of the Dallas-Ft. Worth stations were already programmed into it. I had several stations that were the same as Denver stations - 2-1, 4-1, etc. When I did the initial scan, it kept the Dallas channels and added the Denver channels. I had a blank screen 2-1 (DFW), the KWGN 2-1, and so forth.

So I don't think the channel 47 translator remapping to 6-1 will be a problem. I think the problem described regarding KMGH's VHF test is that they had two exacty the same transmisions going - RF 7 and 17, with the same PSIP info - no differentiation for different transmitters/antennas.

So I don't think the channel 47 translator remapping to 6-1 will be a problem. I think the problem described regarding KMGH's VHF test is that they had two exacty the same transmisions going - RF 7 and 17, with the same PSIP info - no differentiation for different transmitters/antennas.

What you are referring to is the TSID. Every station in the U.S. has a unique TSID assigned to it, which is contained within the PSIP data. You may be correct in that my DTVpal might have handled things properly if the TSID was different. I have seen cases where the DTVpal did remap a program to 70-1 because of a duplicate display channel, but different TSID (It was actually the same station, KRMT, but they had been transmitting a bad TSID value and then fixed it).

However, as Trip already mentioned, this new translator in Fort Collins is a "fill-in" translator, i.e. I believe that means it does not have a different call sign, and if that is true it probably means that it also will not have a different TSID.

Yes, I think it will share the TSID which could certainly be responsible for the issue you noted. That had not occurred to me but makes perfect sense. If I find the time, I may have to investigate the ATSC spec for what it says about translators, if anything.

- Trip

From Pam Osborne, public relations director for RMPBS:
Rocky Mountain Public Broadcasting Network, Inc.
1089 Bannock Street
Denver, CO 80204

In re: Special Temporary Authority Request of:
Rocky Mountain Public Broadcasting Network, Inc.
Channel 47, Fort Collins, CO
Temporary Call Sign: K47LY-D
BDRTET-2009017AIL
BLSTA-20090107AIU
Fac. ID #: 14040

Gentlemen:
This is in reference to your request for Special Temporary Authority to
operate the above-captioned low power television or television translator
station.

In light of the facts set forth therein, your request for Special
Temporary Authority IS HEREBY GRANTED to operate the station in accordance

with the specifications in the above application. This authority is
conditioned upon the avoidance of interference to any existing facilities.
This authority expires July 12, 2009.

Sincerely,
Hossein Hashemzadeh
Associate Chief
Video Division
Media Bureau

cc: Todd D. Gray, Esquire

Looks like it's gonna happen! The dates are not nailed down, but it's possible that the translator could be in place on Horsetooth Mountain by 17 February.

When they fire that puppy up, I'm sending a check to RMPBS. Assuming that the service and coverage are good, I hope that others on this forum will consider doing the same.

Yeehaaaa!

Minor cautionary note: If improvements are made to the Mount Morrison facility, it's possible that some areas will be able to receive BOTH channels 18 and 47 -- both of which may be mapped to 6-x. How tuners handle TSID and mapping data may be important under those circumstances.


Jim McCauley

I can cite two *first case* examples (personal experience), of where the DTV tuner remaps correctly and without any 'wierdness'.

This past summer, during some tropo activity, in the same timeframe, I logged

KRDO-DT 13 (RF 24) Colorado Springs (108 miles to Cheyenne Mtn tower complex)
KTNE-DT 13 (RF 24) Alliance Nebraska (140 miles to N/NE)

Yes, both remap to 13, so I had two separate 13-1 (plus extras) in the Zenith tuner.

Most recently, over the week of Christmas, I was visiting the wife's family in Missouri, near St. Louis. We helped them get hooked up to receive the St. Louis digital channels, plus a second UHF corner reflector to receive the central Missouri digital channels. We did this through the LCD tv's digital tuner. One afternoon while running an update to the channel list, there was some tropo conditions and we snagged an extra channel.

KOMU-DT 8 (RF 8) Columbia Missouri (40 miles NW), and the extra was....
WSIU-DT 8 (RF 40) Carbondale, Illinois (140 miles East)

KOMU-DT was automatically DT channel 8 - WSIU-DT remapped to channel 8. WSIU-DT is a PBS affiliate from Southern Illinois University. There were two 8-1's, two 8-2's, one 8-3, and one 8-4 (the later two were WSIU subchannels).

Your examples of how tuners handle multiple channels is how they are supposed to work. I believe the big question is whether or not tuners will be able to handle KRMA when two IDENTICAL signals are received on different RF channels, i.e., will it be treated as some sort of multipath that the tuner can handle.

Your examples of how tuners handle multiple channels is how they are supposed to work. I believe the big question is whether or not tuners will be able to handle KRMA when two IDENTICAL signals are received on different RF channels, i.e., will it be treated as some sort of multipath that the tuner can handle.

What about 3 RF channels? I can get 24-1 and 18-1 in the winter time. In the summer I only get 18-1 and it is not always watchable. What will 47-1 add to the mix I wonder? Right now 18-1 maps to 6-1 and 24-1 doesn't remap. I have been scared to do a rescan because I like being able to choose which one I watch. I guess I would be in favor if the extra channels didn't remap so I can tell them apart. I'm not sure if this is the way my tuner does it. I guess I'll wait and see how strong 47-1 is to chance a full rescan.

Posted by sunshinedawg:
What about 3 RF channels? I can get 24-1 and 18-1 in the winter time. In the summer I only get 18-1 and it is not always watchable. What will 47-1 add to the mix I wonder? Right now 18-1 maps to 6-1 and 24-1 doesn't remap. I have been scared to do a rescan because I like being able to choose which one I watch. I guess I would be in favor if the extra channels didn't remap so I can tell them apart. I'm not sure if this is the way my tuner does it. I guess I'll wait and see how strong 47-1 is to chance a full rescan.
What would you gain by doing a rescan? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I don't believe I've ever done a rescan on any of my TV's/tuners. Luckily, I can manually add and delete channels, so doing a rescan serves no purpose. If you can, I'd just try to manually add 47-1 if I were in your shoes. Again, if you can, I'd delete 18 and 24 once 47 is up and running. That would eliminate "multipath" caused by 18 and 24 and you should have a "clean" signal on 47-1.

Posted by sunshinedawg:

What would you gain by doing a rescan? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I don't believe I've ever done a rescan on any of my TV's/tuners. Luckily, I can manually add and delete channels, so doing a rescan serves no purpose. If you can, I'd just try to manually add 47-1 if I were in your shoes. Again, if you can, I'd delete 18 and 24 once 47 is up and running. That would eliminate "multipath" caused by 18 and 24 and you should have a "clean" signal on 47-1.

I guess that makes sense, I just got into a habit of doing rescans because my old DTC-100 sometimes would show a blank screen but a full meter bar and the only way to fix it was doing a rescan. I'll just see if I can add 47-1 manually on my newer panny plasma. Thanks.

BTW, I do have trouble with MYHD distinguishing between 18-1 and 24-1, it doesn't like them both being mapped to 6-1. I just have to unhook the antenna when it passes 17-1, and back up for 19-1 and on.

I irregularly pick up Fort Collins Now!, and saw the January 9 article about how PBS wasn't sure to make the Feb. 17 transition date. Have they reported further on the RMPBS plan to put a translator in Fort Collins? I haven't noticed it.

For that matter, is there anything like news on this issue?

For that matter, is there anything like news on this issue [KRMA's Northern Colorado translator]?

I've seen nor heard none, formal or informal. If they are not up and running within the next two weeks, perhaps someone should put in an appearance at the next RMPBS Board of Directors meeting on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 at 1089 Bannock Street, Denver. It starts at 3:30 PM.

Due to a prior commitment, I cannot attend. I went down about this time last year (see post #920 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13245934#post13245934)) and politely shook 'em up. Maybe this time someone else would be good enough to carry the ball, if necessary.


Jim McCauley

If they are not up and running within the next two weeks, perhaps someone should put in an appearance at the next RMPBS Board of Directors meeting on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 at 1089 Bannock Street, Denver. It starts at 3:30 PM.

Bummer - I could actually go if I was in-state that day. It could be fun :-)

Rob T

No one's mentioned KQCK for a few weeks. :rolleyes: Is anyone else experiencing audio problems on 11-1? On my DTVPal the audio spurts off and on about once a second. On my other tuners (a Samsung SIR-T351 and a Hughes DirecTV HD receiver) there is no audio at all.

My DTVPal DVR acts the same way as your DTVPal on KQCK.

No one's mentioned KQCK for a few weeks. :rolleyes: Is anyone else experiencing audio problems on 11-1? On my DTVPal the audio spurts off and on about once a second. On my other tuners (a Samsung SIR-T351 and a Hughes DirecTV HD receiver) there is no audio at all.

I've got the same thing going on. I'm still getting analog on 27, I wonder if they will flash cut tonight.

I've got the same thing going on. I'm still getting analog on 27, I wonder if they will flash cut tonight.

I called KLWY this morning and asked when they would make the switch. The receptionist said they were scheduled to turn the analog transmitter off and boost the power on the DTV transmitter between 1 and 3 this afternoon...BUT...

The engineers doing the work called KLWY and told them they were stuck in a snowstorm west of Denver and didn't know how soon they would get to Cheyenne.

Update: Approximately 4pm today, KLWY made the transition and is now broadcasting as KLWY-DT 27 (RF 27), with full power. I have attached a jpeg image from the FCC's PDF document, showing KLWY-DT's post-transition coverage.

Yeeeeehaaaaaw! Got a 68% lock on 27-1 and 27-2 with both the panny plasma and thdtvpal+. That's with no amp and the antenna just laying on my back deck. 27-1 is labeled KLWY-SD and 27-2 is labeled KLWY-HD.


:D:D:D:D:D:D

Locked in Wyoming PBS-KWYP with no problem even though their antenna is 40 miles due west of Cheyenne (and mainly serves Laramie) and my antenna is pointed south to LOM in Golden. Channel 8.1 is digital and 8.5 is in HD. Some of you in Northern Colorado may be able to pick it up also. KWYP will be adding another translator a few miles east of Cheyenne sometime in April-May according to their engineering dept. KLWY is scanning in at 27-4 only and is in HD.

No one's mentioned KQCK for a few weeks. :rolleyes: Is anyone else experiencing audio problems on 11-1?

Only always from this class act :-) My Dish receiver doesn't decode sound, but my
Directv Tivo does OK without much oddness when it can see the signal. (It listens
through a CM-7775 to get stations I care about, which are all (still!) on UHF.

OBTW, I get KLWY relatively well on my Dish unit and attic antenna. Is there a
reason why it's a good thing to have yet another Fox option? Do they do anything
well or cool?

Rob T

OBTW, I get KLWY relatively well on my Dish unit and attic antenna. Is there a
reason why it's a good thing to have yet another Fox option? Do they do anything
well or cool?

Rob T

They sometimes have different NFL games than KDVR and can show games when the Broncos are on.

KUSA added 9.3 this morning.:) It says "The futuer home of NBC Universal Sports." Its an SD signal at 480i.

KMart in Longmont, Colorado NorthWest Corner 21st and Main received a new shipment of Zenith DTT901 CECBs ~ 11 AM 25 Feb 2009

Locked in Wyoming PBS-KWYP with no problem even though their antenna is 40 miles due west of Cheyenne (and mainly serves Laramie) and my antenna is pointed south to LOM in Golden. Channel 8.1 is digital and 8.5 is in HD. Some of you in Northern Colorado may be able to pick it up also. KWYP will be adding another translator a few miles east of Cheyenne sometime in April-May according to their engineering dept. KLWY is scanning in at 27-4 only and is in HD.
No luck receiving KWYP in Loveland.

The east Cheyenne translator (K36JO-D) is only going to run at 6 kW. I doubt the signal will make it this far south. See http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=K36JO

It's too bad they don't plan to run more power. It would be nice to get some HD PBS programming in northern Colorado.

No luck receiving KWYP in Loveland.

The east Cheyenne translator (K36JO-D) is only going to run at 6 kW.

The 74dBu contour map is here:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TX1197118.html

Weird. The pattern is mildly directional, pointing to the east, AWAY from the center of town.


Jim McCauley

Looks like Universal Sports is finally up for good:)

It looks like the wait is over for most of you who were looking to receive KRMA in the Fort Collins area. KRMA just came up (3:54 PM today) on their Fort Collins repeater on RF47. Signal is real strong for me, but then again I'm LOS and less than 4 miles from the transmitter. The signal is stronger than KQCK which I believe is from the same location, but my antenna (a CM4228) is less sensitive to high VHF.

Signal [from the new KRMA-DT translator] is real strong for me, but then again I'm LOS and less than 4 miles from the transmitter.

The signal is a bit low here north of Fort Collins near Terry Lake, which is a bit of a surprise. I'll fiddle with my antenna later and see it I can improve reception.

The pictures from all three subchannels are great, and two of tmy three tuners also pick up the audio from 6-5, a reading service channel.

Please report your reception here.


Jim McCauley

Please report your reception here.


This is among my top signals, if not the strongest (KCNC is close enough that it's hard to tell). The signal is coming in from the side of my antenna, since my antenna does not have a rotor and is aimed directly at Lookout Mountain.

My location is south west Fort Collins, near the intersection of Taft Hill and Harmony roads.

The new translator went off the air sometime between 6:10 and 7:14 PM on Wednesday evening (11 March), at least for me here north of Fort Collins. Is anyone getting anything?


Jim McCauley

K47LY-D did not go off the air, but it did drop below the level of detectability at my location. This might have been due to atmospherics that emphasized the effect of the null in the radiation pattern of the translator.

This is a great disappointment.


Jim McCauley

Thanks for the posts, guys! I just did a channel scan, and picked up the KRMA translator. Now, if we can just get some HD outta them, I'll be a happy camper. My antenna is pointed toward LOM, but I pick up the stations just fine (off-axis). Signal strength is excellent.

I'm receiving the new translator at my location just 7.5 miles LOS 10 degrees North of the antenna. Signal strength is low/marginal with breakups as the atmosphere warms this morning.

Maybe I can get on the roof today and try my setup with out the pre-amp which I think may be overloading my tuners.

Please report your reception here.


My Dish receiver connected to an attic antenna tunes 6-2 and 6-3 with 95% signal strength, tunes 6-5 but does not decode audio, and does not get anything on 6-1 - despite my clearing the channels, it looks like it's remembering 6-1 is on RF 18.

My Directv receiver connected to my CM-4228 sees the signal off the side of the antenna, just barely, but hasn't picked up something strong enough to actually scan and add to the channel list. If I tune 47-1, I can see a frame every once in a great while. The Directv tuner does not like multipath, so it seems like I need to point an antenna towards Horsetooth and try to combine signals (ick). This receiver doesn't really like KGWN RF 30 or KFCT RF 21, either, due to multipath.

Summary - not quite getting any kind of joy.

Rob T

I am in Huntington Hill here in FTC (around Southridge Golf Course) and just recently did a scan for new channels and was amazed at the ones I could get now:
I now reacquire 5.1/.2 KGWN after a absence for several months
and new ones: 6.1/.2/.3/.5 (audio) KRMA, 9.1/.2(weather)/.3(sports) KUSA, 11.1 (Not sure the call letters), 18.1/.2/.5/.6/.8 (no call letters), 27.1/.2 KLWY, 40.1 (no call letters), 47.1/.2/.3/.6/.8/.5 (audio) (no call letters)

I used my Sony SXRD tuner for all of these with a attic antenna pointed at Denver

It's great to see the new KRMA-DT translator up and running. I'm in SE Ft. Collins (appx. Drake & Lemay) and I can get it with a carefully positioned simple UHF loop on my upper floor using an OnAir GT USB tuner. I also get it in the low-90s with my DTVPal DVR and rooftop directional antenna, pointed toward Denver. So, there seems to be plenty of signal for me even though it is about 90% off-axis.

The DTVPal DVR maps the channel to "446-1,-2-3,-5" but puts it in the guide between channels 5 and 7, as you would expect. If I enter 006 on the remote, it goes to 446-1. So, the mapping on that receiver seems a little strange. The OnAir GT maps everything to 6-X, as expected.

Now my main problem channel is KMGH, which has a lot of short breakups due to very marginal signal strength.

Mark

An update - my Dish receiever is now completely happy with RF 47 from the weaker signal from my attic antenna, showing 95-100% signal quality. If I connect this signal to my Directv HR10-250, it won't even pick up RF 47 on a scan; same with the signal from my CM-4228 pointing at Lookout. Unfortunately for me, I rely on the HR10-250 because I get guide data for it.

The signal must have multipath from either source, so I will likely have to point something at Horsetooth directly. A question is: should I get a frequency-specific combiner, or should I just try a splitter in reverse? Should I buy a single-channel antenna or try a small broadband antenna I already have (a Silver Sensor)? Any
ideas welcome.

If it was me, I'd try the cheapest, easiest solution possible. I presume you get a signal on 47 with the Silver Sensor? If so, I'd just use a splitter in reverse and see if it works. But it may degrade the signals from the 4228. You can buy a channel specific filter to allow 47 to pass but nothing else. Info on those can be found in threads on Technical Forum.

You could use a separate line and an A/B switch, but that's a PIA and not much good for unattended recording.

I don't believe there are single-channel antennas in the UHF band but there are antennas for a small range of UHF channels that might work.

You may want to post your question over in the Antennas thread of the Technical Forum if the reverse splitter/Silver Sensor idea doesn't work.

A question is: should I get a frequency-specific combiner, or should I just try a splitter in reverse? Should I buy a single-channel antenna or try a small broadband antenna I already have (a Silver Sensor)? Any
ideas welcome.

If it was me, I'd try the cheapest, easiest solution possible.

Rob,
I agree with Mike. At the present time 47 is only licensed through 7/12/09 at which time KRMA will (presumably) have their primary antenna on Mt. Morrison moved so we can receive 18.

Rob,
I agree with Mike. At the present time 47 is only licensed through 7/12/09 at which time KRMA will (presumably) have their primary antenna on Mt. Morrison moved so we can receive 18.

Ah, I hadn't realized that they had a temporary license. For that amount of time, I can hammer in a few manual timers for PBS shows on the Dish receiver and wait. My family room is on the wrong side of the house, so I have to run wire to get my Silver Sensor to a spot where it can see Horsetooth. I will probably still try it, but I won't stress.

Ah, I hadn't realized that they had a temporary license. For that amount of time, I can hammer in a few manual timers for PBS shows on the Dish receiver and wait. My family room is on the wrong side of the house, so I have to run wire to get my Silver Sensor to a spot where it can see Horsetooth. I will probably still try it, but I won't stress.

They're operating it at the moment under a temporary license, but have properly applied for it under a permanent license. The FCC just has yet to act on the permanent one, whereas it granted the temporary one very quickly.

- Trip

I'm receiving the new translator at my location just 7.5 miles LOS 10 degrees North of the antenna. Signal strength is low/marginal with breakups as the atmosphere warms this morning.

Maybe I can get on the roof today and try my setup with out the pre-amp which I think may be overloading my tuners.

Got on the roof and nothing I did helped.
No pre-amp = slightly worse reception and Denver stations got bad.
Turned antenna directly at tower and reception was almost non existent.

The signal strength is up and down from about 50% to 0. Time of day doesn't seem to make any difference. Very frustrating, 5 or 10 minutes of excellent reception and then it freezes. Sometimes it comes right back and other times the screen goes black for a while.

Is anyone North or north west of this translator receiving a solid signal?

Thanks

^ I can't give you a perfect frame of reference, as my house is a couple/few miles SE of you...I'm north of Vine and West of Taft Hill. My LOS to the tower is about 40* off axis from my antenna's general southerly orientation (220* magnetic azimuth to the antenna farm).

Signal strength is very good, relative to LOM, but I still see dropouts and pixellation, in spite of this.

I don't know if KRMA will pay any attention to entries in their bolg on the new translator near Horsetooth Mountain, but it is one more avenue that we can use to let them know about our bad reception.

New translator blog (http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/432/Horsetooth-Mountain-translator-now-functional)

I notice the KRMA-DT translator went off the air sometime last night. Not sure about its current status.

I get good signal strength from the translator (when it is operating), but I get frequent freezes on 6-1, sometimes several seconds in length. I don't think this is a signal strength issue. I haven't noticed freezes on 6-3, but I haven't tuned to 6-3 much.

Mark

I notice the KRMA-DT translator went off the air sometime last night. Not sure about its current status.

I get good signal strength from the translator (when it is operating), but I get frequent freezes on 6-1, sometimes several seconds in length. I don't think this is a signal strength issue. I haven't noticed freezes on 6-3, but I haven't tuned to 6-3 much.

Mark

I see freezes on all the sub channels.

You should be in their better signal strength area.

Jim McCauley was looking into interference from analog Channel 48 transmitting from the same ridge. Have not seen anything since this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16031731#post16031731) on March 12.

Up here in Wellington, I can just barely get RF47. This is after trying to use a dedicated antenna to 'look' towards Horsetooth mountain. The main UHF antenna I have is pointing about 190 degrees azimuth towards Lookout, and it gets nothing on RF47.

I have a direct line of sight to the transmitter and yet its marginal at best - I stand a better chance of getting RF18 instead.:(

I get freeze ups and misc breakups as well - and last night the signal was gone.

No joy here,
Ken

I just received the following reply to my complaint on the KRMA translator blog.

Linda
Thursday, March 19, 2009 11:13 a.m.
Good morning, John. We have engineers who will be going to northern Colorado to check out the site, determine the source of the problems and take care of them. You should be getting a good signal soon.

Post in the blog, they are paying attention!

KRMA Translator Blog (http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/432/Horsetooth-Mountain-translator-now-functional)

Jim McCauley was looking into interference from analog Channel 48 transmitting from the same ridge. Have not seen anything since this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16031731#post16031731) on March 12.

I regret that I still have no further news from RMPBS engineering. I can tell you that they absolutely know that something is amiss, because I have spoken personally with the staff.

It is probable that some member of the staff is monitoring this forum, although I do not know that for a fact.

I agree with 'jamjar' that posting to the KRMA Translator Blog (http://www.rmpbs.org/panorama/index.cfm/entry/432/Horsetooth-Mountain-translator-now-functional) is an effective means of getting their attention. If they are willing to listen, let's talk to them!


Jim McCauley

I get freeze ups and misc breakups as well - and last night the signal was gone.

No joy here,
Ken

Both KQCK and the K47LY-D translator went off the air at around 10 pm last night. They came back around 11:15 pm. So that particular problem may have been a common site problem (their antenna's are either on the same tower or very close, the lattitude and longitude are slightly different, but I don't know how accurately they have been specified). Perhaps there was an electrical problem?

The translator signal began dropping out more than usual tonight during _Sherlock Holmes_ and then packed up entirely here at Terry Lake. Did anyone else have problems?

Other weirdness: During the snowstorm last week (was it Wednesday?), channel 7 vanished and I got the best reception ever from the KRMA translator! The next night, 7 was back and RF 47 was periodically dropping out again as usual.


Jim McCauley

K47LY-D was completely unwatchable at my location all evening.
Video varied from gross pixelation to black.

May 19 looks to be my best hope for getting a consistent signal from KRMA if they indeed do get their new antenna up and running at full power at the top of the tower on Mt. Morrison on that date. The translator antenna pattern is very weak in my direction.

I have had issues with KMGH since they moved to LOM, but mostly just occasional glitches in the sound and some pixelation. A few times we had to revert to analog to watch them. I'm looking forward to April 16.

The translator signal began dropping out more than usual tonight during _Sherlock Holmes_ and then packed up entirely here at Terry Lake. Did anyone else have problems?

Other weirdness: During the snowstorm last week (was it Wednesday?), channel 7 vanished and I got the best reception ever from the KRMA translator! The next night, 7 was back and RF 47 was periodically dropping out again as usual.


I'm getting nothing from the RF 47 translator tonight--zero signal. In the last couple of weeks, I had been getting good results from the translator, without the breakups/freezes that I had been getting earlier.

Tonight's rainy weather is presumably responsible for my below-usable signal from KMGH-DT, but I think the RF 47 KRMA translator must be down completely.

Mark

I am concerned about KCNC DT35 -- its signal is sometimes the worst of the major Denver stations at my location in SW Fort Collins (now that I don't count KRMA). It actually pixelates briefly when the atmospheric conditions are lousy. Posts indicate it's operating at full power, but its radiation pattern must be far different from either KTVD RF19 or KWGN RF 34 which both blast in here. We won't know for sure about KMGH and KUSA for another week and a half, but I at least will have a problem with KCNC after transition unless they alter their directional characteristics or something.

Bill

From SE Ft. Collins, I haven't had significant issues with KCNC. I do get infrequent glitches. Oddly, KUSA does seem less prone to glitches even though their signal is weaker.

The KRMA translator seems to be on and off tonight--on for a few minutes, then off, then on. Not sure what is going on there, but it definitely isn't watchable. When on, the signal seems lower than normal.

It looks like the Fox translator on RF 21 is off right now also.

Mark

I am concerned about KCNC DT35 -- its signal is sometimes the worst of the major Denver stations at my location in SW Fort Collins (now that I don't count KRMA). It actually pixelates briefly when the atmospheric conditions are lousy. Posts indicate it's operating at full power, but its radiation pattern must be far different from either KTVD RF19 or KWGN RF 34 which both blast in here. We won't know for sure about KMGH and KUSA for another week and a half, but I at least will have a problem with KCNC after transition unless they alter their directional characteristics or something.

Bill

What antenna are you using and do you have a pre-amp installed?

I have a high gain YAGI UHF antenna and a high gain Pre-amp and find that I have to attenuate the signal slightly or KCNC apparently overloads my tuners to the point of totally dropping reception. Possibly a weak multi-path component is being amplified enough to upset the tuners. I have tried taking the pre-amp out of my system and KCNC still comes in OK with a weaker received signal, but some of the others are not receivable.

KWGN is the strongest of the LOM stations I can receive followed by KCNC, KUSA, KTVD and then KDVR. However, there is only slight signal strength differences between those five.

KMGH is the weakest LOM station that I receive and sometimes is so bad that we revert to analog to watch their programming.

It will be interesting on April 16.

Strangely, KPXC-DT (59) is the strongest station I receive and it is 23 degrees off axis of my antenna pointed at LOM.

I have a Radio Shack VHF-UHF in the attic with both a medium gain pre-amp (17? 25? DB) and a distribution amp for 4 outlets. I guess I'm lucky here -- I get a consistently good KBDI (for now!), and both KMGH and KUSA are solid. Shortly after the early LOM tower problems when they went to the "backup" antenna, KCNC was my strongest station for a week or so, and it's still ok 90+% of the time -- just much weaker. 8VSB amazes me -- even the stations off the side and back (KFCT, the Horsetooth stations and KLWY and KGWN from Cheyenne) are great.

Bill

I am concerned about KCNC DT35 -- its signal is sometimes the worst of the major Denver stations at my location in SW Fort Collins (now that I don't count KRMA). It actually pixelates briefly when the atmospheric conditions are lousy. Posts indicate it's operating at full power, but its radiation pattern must be far different from either KTVD RF19 or KWGN RF 34 which both blast in here. We won't know for sure about KMGH and KUSA for another week and a half, but I at least will have a problem with KCNC after transition unless they alter their directional characteristics or something.
Bill

Interesting. I also live in SW Fort Collins, and KCNC is fairly strong for me. I haven't had any problems with pixelation on this station. My problem is that I am going to lose KUSA after April 15 unless I add a VHF antenna (I use a CM4228 which gets RF7 fairly well, but seems to have problems with RF9 at my location).


KGMC is the strongest of the LOM stations I can receive followed by KCNC, KUSA, KTVD and then KDVR. However, there is only slight signal strength differences between those five.

KMGH is the weakest LOM station that I receive and sometimes is so bad that we revert to analog to watch their programming.


What station did you mean to type when you typed KGMC above? Did you mean KWGN? That's a very strong one for me also. Hard to imagine what it will be like when they go full power. Hopefully they won't do something to mess it up!

What station did you mean to type when you typed KGMC above? Did you mean KWGN? That's a very strong one for me also. Hard to imagine what it will be like when they go full power. Hopefully they won't do something to mess it up!

Yes, I did mean KWGN. Thanks, original post corrected.

So, I emailed RMPBS about the problems with the translator, and they responded that they had a power problem during the last storm. The current 30 seconds on / 60 seconds off behavior seems like a weird failure mode due to a power outage. Anyway they say they hope to fix it tomorrow (Friday). They said that the road to the transmitter has been inpassable until now.

So, I emailed RMPBS about the problems with the translator, and they responded that they had a power problem during the last storm. The current 30 seconds on / 60 seconds off behavior seems like a weird failure mode due to a power outage. Anyway they say they hope to fix it tomorrow (Friday). They said that the road to the transmitter has been inpassable until now.

I guess they didn't have luck yesterday, since I still can't see anything on RF 47.

RF 11, from our friends at KQCK, has been silent for some time as well (no big surprise).

KQCK is actually being auctioned off this week.

- Trip

KQCK is actually being auctioned off this week.
I guess that means we have a chance to have a station that shows something other than 1938 copyright free movies, some PSIP info for the first time, sound on all of my receivers, and a station that's on the air when you tune to it.

I guess they didn't have luck yesterday, since I still can't see anything on RF 47.

According to the chief station engineer, they need to replace a part. It's on order. Weather permitting, they'll install it next week.


Jim McCauley

According to the chief station engineer, they need to replace a part. It's on order. Weather permitting, they'll install it next week.
Jim McCauley
They must have got it via overnight shipping. The translator came back up around 11:30 AM today. Still seeing more CRC errors than I would expect, but that might just be a side effect of the signal coming in from the side of the antenna.

They must have got it via overnight shipping. The translator came back up around 11:30 AM today. Still seeing more CRC errors than I would expect, but that might just be a side effect of the signal coming in from the side of the antenna.

I was seeing them back to the on-and-off pattern again last night. They seemed to be "on" only for several seconds, then off for an extended period.

Edit: They posted some information on their web site at last:
"UPDATE: Rocky Mountain PBS' DTV transition plan
The Ft. Collins Translator is back on air, but there may be interruptions in service for the next few days. We expect to have all issues resolved by Thursday. Thank you for your patience. "

I was seeing them back to the on-and-off pattern again last night. They seemed to be "on" only for several seconds, then off for an extended period.


This seems to be better, though I'm still seeing an awful lot of dropouts.
But the 25 seconds on / 1 minute off behaviour is gone.

Rob T

This seems to be better, though I'm still seeing an awful lot of dropouts.
But the 25 seconds on / 1 minute off behaviour is gone.

Rob T

Your reception pretty much matches what I'm seeing from the RF 47 translator.
My reception seems to be really affected by the weather and temperature changes.

After about 3 years of monitoring this forum I am not real sure what prompted me to join today and post a message, but here it is. I currently have about a 6' combination VHF/UHF antenna pointed south, with a small Rat Shack UHF antenna wired inline about 4' below it pointed north. I have 2 HDTV Receivers, Samsung H260F and Sylvania 6900DTE. I also have 3 Digital to Analog converters, 2 Zenith DTT900s and a Channel Master CM-7000. I have always had great reception from my location and really had no doubt that it would continue or even improve today. Seems that it has improved because the few times that I have had problems are usually with channel 9 in weather like we are having today. The following readings are from this morning at approx. 10:30am off of the CM-7000 which I just added to the TV in my garage last Saturday. It is the longest run with the most splits and yet it picks up KWHD as low as 25% when none of the others even see it.

2 KWGN 100%
4 KCNC 80%
5 KGWN 88%
6 KRMA 48%
7 KMGH 100%
9 KUSA 100%
12 KBDI 100%
14 KTFD 100%
20 KTVD 100%
22 KDVR 100%
25 KDEN 100%
27 KLWY 100%
31 KDVR 100%
41 KRMT 100%
50 Univisi 100%
53 KWHD 28%
59 ION 100%

The translator is dead for me at my location.

For more on this I have posted information in this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16286389#post16286389) on the Denver forum.

KQCK is actually being auctioned off this week.

Hey Trip,

Any updates, or pointers to where to look for them? It'd be interesting to know who gets it.

Hey Trip,

Any updates, or pointers to where to look for them? It'd be interesting to know who gets it.

KQCK-DT and KQDK-CA were auctioned to "Valley Bank" whoever they are.

- Trip

I have an AntenaDirect C4 pointed at 176 degrees. I am not seeing KRMA RF 47 at all.
Are they on the air? I seem to get it for a couple seconds, then it's gone. My location is west Drake. Any ideas? Has KRMA communicated their plans for turning this on?

I have an AntenaDirect C4 pointed at 176 degrees. I am not seeing KRMA RF 47 at all.
Are they on the air? I seem to get it for a couple seconds, then it's gone. My location is west Drake. Any ideas? Has KRMA communicated their plans for turning this on?

It was on, and then it broke. They "fixed it" last week, and then it died again. Right now, the behaviour you are observing is what most people are observing, i.e. it intermittently comes on for a few seconds and then goes away again. I wonder if the same problem that happened last time has happened again. That would indicate that they haven't determined the actual root cause of the problem.

It appears that the KRMA translator has returned to stable operation. It's been running without signal drops since Friday afternoon. But I think I'll wait a bit before I switch my KRMA recording settings from RF18 back to RF47.

I'm only seeing a weak signal at my location 7.5 mi LOS at 15 degrees North North East of the tower.

Not a chance to lock on.

I found this useful link on another forum topic:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/

I found this useful link on another forum topic:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/

thanks