It appears that the KRMA translator has returned to stable operation. It's been running without signal drops since Friday afternoon. But I think I'll wait a bit before I switch my KRMA recording settings from RF18 back to RF47.

I've had a look, and my off-axis reception is too spotty to make this translator usable. It's too bad - if it solved my problem, I'd be a member now. It's surprising, too - KQCK RF 11 was perfectly stable from the same location at a frequency my antenna likes less. I think I'll hold out until May 19.

I've had a look, and my off-axis reception is too spotty to make this translator usable. It's too bad - if it solved my problem, I'd be a member now. It's surprising, too - KQCK RF 11 was perfectly stable from the same location at a frequency my antenna likes less. I think I'll hold out until May 19.

I have the same issue. I was able to get in 11 with no problems, on a cheap set top antenna no less. But I've never been able to get in the PBS from Horsetooth, ever. Just have to wait and see what, if anything they do about it.

I've had a look, and my off-axis reception is too spotty to make this translator usable. It's too bad - if it solved my problem, I'd be a member now. It's surprising, too - KQCK RF 11 was perfectly stable from the same location at a frequency my antenna likes less. I think I'll hold out until May 19.

I have the same issue. I was able to get in 11 with no problems, on a cheap set top antenna no less. But I've never been able to get in the PBS from Horsetooth, ever. Just have to wait and see what, if anything they do about it.

I think the problem for most of us is two fold.
KQCK-DT was transmitting 60 - 80 percent more power than KRMA-DT RF47 (16 - 18 kw vs 10 kw).
The KQCK-DT antenna covers a much larger area.

Polar plots for both antennas are attached.

I think the problem for most of us is two fold.
KQCK-DT was transmitting 60 - 80 percent more power than KRMA-DT RF47 (16 - 18 kw vs 10 kw).
The KQCK-DT antenna covers a much larger area.

Polar plots for both antennas are attached.

Yeah, that makes sense. Although KRMA's plan doesn't...to me at least. As a station that relies on donations, it seems they are shooting themselves in the foot by their narrow coverage up here.

I'm able to get the Denver stations pretty well with my setup, with the exception of the PBS channels. Are there any changes planned in the near future that will change this?

I'm able to get the Denver stations pretty well with my setup, with the exception of the PBS channels. Are there any changes planned in the near future that will change this?

On May 19, KRMA RF 18 is supposed to go from a low structure to the top of a tower, and also to crank their ERP up to a megawatt. Should be a BIG improvement.

On June 12, KBDI will finally be able to go from their channel 38 allocation to channel 13, and the UHF->VHF transition was a very good thing for us in Fort Collins when KUSA and KMGH did it.

I expect to get both PBS stations a lot better by summer. And both have talked about plans to restore high-def programming - KRMA was talking July, I believe.

Rob T

Thanks Rob, that's good info.

Quick question for the masses - I live on the North Side of Fort Collins (near Mulberry & I-25) and have some real difficulty getting consistent signal from KUSA (9-1) and KMGH (7-1) through my PC TV Tuner card. (oddly, when I plug the antenna signal directly into the flatscreen, I can get both pretty well, but the PC Tuner card is much more finicky.)

This strikes me as odd, seeing as how both of those stations have already completely made the digital transition... Any ideas as to why I seem to have such a problem? I'm running a Terk HDTVa amplified indoor directional antenna, out the second floor window facing southwest. AntennaWeb tells me that KMGH is 61 miles away, which would make sense.. and that the Cheyenne ABC affiliate (KQCK) will go digital in June and is only 11 miles away. But AntennaWeb doesn't seem to list any info for KUSA.

If it is just a power thing, does anyone have any rec's for a more powerful indoor antenna?

Quick question for the masses - I live on the North Side of Fort Collins (near Mulberry & I-25) and have some real difficulty getting consistent signal from KUSA (9-1) and KMGH (7-1) through my PC TV Tuner card. (oddly, when I plug the antenna signal directly into the flatscreen, I can get both pretty well, but the PC Tuner card is much more finicky.)

This strikes me as odd, seeing as how both of those stations have already completely made the digital transition... Any ideas as to why I seem to have such a problem? I'm running a Terk HDTVa amplified indoor directional antenna, out the second floor window facing southwest. AntennaWeb tells me that KMGH is 61 miles away, which would make sense.. and that the Cheyenne ABC affiliate (KQCK) will go digital in June and is only 11 miles away. But AntennaWeb doesn't seem to list any info for KUSA.

If it is just a power thing, does anyone have any rec's for a more powerful indoor antenna?

First, it sounds like your tuner card is not as sensitive, or perhaps doesn't deal as well with multipath as your TV set. That sometimes happens. My two tuners are pretty different in their multipath handling, for example.

I would give up on antennaweb.org - they used to produce credible lists, but not now. These days, I use tvfool.com, which gives probably too much detailed information in some ways, but which can be great when you need it. For the record, KUSA and KMGH are both sending their signals into the same tower array.

Are you absolutely restricted to an indoor antenna? If not, getting something on your roof, or putting something large in an attic, would both work better. We're rather far away from the Denver transmitters to expect any indoor reception, even if you're pointing out a window. If it has to be indoors, I would recommend a Zenith Silver Sensor for UHF and something for VHF (maybe the Terk), and to try a preamp like the Channel Master CM-7778, which has separate VHF and UHF inputs. I have a Silver Sensor you would be welcome to borrow if you'd care to try; send me a private message if so.

and that the Cheyenne ABC affiliate (KQCK) will go digital in June and is only 11 miles away. But AntennaWeb doesn't seem to list any info for KUSA.

If it is just a power thing, does anyone have any rec's for a more powerful indoor antenna?

FYI, KQCK hasn't been an ABC affiliate for quite some time. Also, they have already been on the air, but they have had a variety of technical and financial problems. The station is currently off the air and was recently bought at auction. So perhaps we will see it on the air again soon. Not sure what kind of programming it will have, but almost certainly not ABC. KMGH will be your only choice for ABC, as will KUSA be your only choice for NBC. There are Cheyenne affiliates for CBS and FOX.

I'll second rthurlow's comments regarding antenna. This far away you really need either a large antenna in the attic or a reasonable quality antenna on the roof. You will also benefit from a high quality antenna preamp unless you are not going to be splitting your signal and have a fairly short cable run. Note also that an attic antenna won't work if you have a metal roof.

I don't think it's fair to say that KQCK will not be an ABC or NBC affiliate when, and if, it gets back on the air. KQCK's city of license (COL) is Cheyenne. Cheyenne has CBS and Fox affiliates, with coverage that overlaps the Denver CBS and Fox affiliates. I believe there is an LP in Cheyenne for ABC. I don't see any reason why a station with a Cheyenne COL couldn't be an ABC or NBC affiliate. I hope they do land one of these networks and, if KFCT is sold, that it lands the other one. That'll give a lot of viewers a second affiliate to rely on and sure beats having another infomercial or holy roller station. That would have been handy this evening when KUSA, which doesn't have to pay any attention to an analog operation any longer, nevertheless "forgot" to show the first segment of Leno in HD.

I don't think it's fair to say that KQCK will not be an ABC or NBC affiliate when, and if, it gets back on the air. KQCK's city of license (COL) is Cheyenne. Cheyenne has CBS and Fox affiliates, with coverage that overlaps the Denver CBS and Fox affiliates. I believe there is an LP in Cheyenne for ABC. I don't see any reason why a station with a Cheyenne COL couldn't be an ABC or NBC affiliate. I hope they do land one of these networks and, if KFCT is sold, that it lands the other one. That'll give a lot of viewers a second affiliate to rely on and sure beats having another infomercial or holy roller station. That would have been handy this evening when KUSA, which doesn't have to pay any attention to an analog operation any longer, nevertheless "forgot" to show the first segment of Leno in HD.

I didn't say it is impossible. I said "almost certainly". I just think the probability is fairly low. The main point is that they are not an ABC affiliate now, so planning on getting ABC via KQCK would be a mistake.

I don't see any reason why a station with a Cheyenne COL couldn't be an ABC or NBC affiliate. I hope they do land one of these networks and, if KFCT is sold, that it lands the other one.

This would be nice, indeed. Either would make up for the loss of KPJR to TBN. Seems unlikely, but ...

Did I miss something? Where did the rumor of KFCT being for sale come from?

The Horsetooth Translator seems to be coming in with a more consistent 60 percent signal at my location North of the tower.

What reception are some of the others who were having trouble with their signal seeing the past 2 or 3 days?

I would like to change my VHF antenna if the translator is indeed working properly now.

Thanks.

The Horsetooth Translator seems to be coming in with a more consistent 60 percent signal at my location North of the tower.

What reception are some of the others who were having trouble with their signal seeing the past 2 or 3 days?

I would like to change my VHF antenna if the translator is indeed working properly now.

Thanks.

From my logs it looks like they increased signal strength at around 2:15 PM yesterday (Monday). However, I haven't had any real problems with their signal strength. I have had a lot of errors that I believe were either due to multipath or failures in the translator. But it has been fairly reliable for the last 3 weeks for me (there were some dropouts between 12PM and 2:15 PM yesterday, but I think that is probably due to them working on the translator at that time, based on the power increase at 2:15).

From my logs it looks like they increased signal strength at around 2:15 PM yesterday (Monday). However, I haven't had any real problems with their signal strength. I have had a lot of errors that I believe were either due to multipath or failures in the translator. But it has been fairly reliable for the last 3 weeks for me (there were some dropouts between 12PM and 2:15 PM yesterday, but I think that is probably due to them working on the translator at that time, based on the power increase at 2:15).

Thanks for the information.

It appears as if there is a time before sunset that I'm getting some sort of interference. From 7:00 to 7:30 PM this evening, the signal was very erratic with many breakups but no total drops. This phenomenon could begin as early as an hour before sunset since I didn't tune KRMA until 7:00 PM at which time the signal was unstable. I checked periodically during the day today and had a stable signal. The signal became very stable at 7:30 PM as soon as the sun set.

The sun set at 7:58 PM today.

The sun set at 7:58 PM today.

Just an FYI, most sunset calculations are done with the altitude set at sea level and assuming a flat horizon. So, the official sunset may have been 7:58 PM, but the time the top edge of the sun went below the actual mountainous horizon on the front range of Colorado was earlier than that.

The sun set at 7:58 PM today.

You are correct. The official sunset is as you listed.

However, where I am just two miles east of the foothills, it was gone at 7:30 PM and the signal immediately improved. :D

The only reason I posted the actual sunset time was because, since it was about 30 minutes after reception changed, that the problem with reception might be attributable to something other than sunset. If you guys think as that soon as the sun isn't directly visible due to the mountains, that your reception improves, then perhaps you're right. I was just trying to help, but apparently my post wasn't preceived in that manner.

If you guys think as that soon as the sun isn't directly visible due to the mountains, that your reception improves, then perhaps you're right. I was just trying to help, but apparently my post wasn't preceived in that manner.

Mike,
Your observations and help are always appreciated.

My post was only to point out that my location is quite close to the mountains and for whatever reason, reception has been good during the day until approximately 45 minutes prior to the sun going down here. Within minutes after the sun goes behind the mountain, my reception improves appreciably.

jsmar is farther East and does not experience the same marginal reception from the RF 47 translator that I see here.

I think that KRMA must have increased the translator power to it's final level a couple days ago. I expect that when they get their new antenna in operation on Mt. Morrison, I will be able to receive that signal much better than the translator which has a very directional antenna pointed 105 degrees East South East - Fully 90 degrees from my location north of the tower.

The only reason I posted the actual sunset time was because, since it was about 30 minutes after reception changed, that the problem with reception might be attributable to something other than sunset. If you guys think as that soon as the sun isn't directly visible due to the mountains, that your reception improves, then perhaps you're right. I was just trying to help, but apparently my post wasn't preceived in that manner.

No, I'm just an analytic. I really don't have a good idea how the sun setting would affect reception. If it is related to direct sunshine then the time that the sun stops shining on the transmitter and/or the receiving antenna may be a factor.


jsmar is farther East and does not experience the same marginal reception from the RF 47 translator that I see here.


I'm really not that much further east, since I am west of Taft Hill road. However, my house is directly in line with the direction the antenna is aimed at, and I can actually see the small Horsetooth Mountain antenna farm from my house.

I'm really not that much further east, since I am west of Taft Hill road. However, my house is directly in line with the direction the antenna is aimed at, and I can actually see the small Horsetooth Mountain antenna farm from my house.

I'm 7.5 miles 15 degrees North North East of the tower and I too can see it from my front door - Total Line of Sight. However, the antenna signal propagation in that direction is extremely low. I have attached a polar plot of the antenna with my azimuth shown.

I have no idea why the sunset phenomenon would exist or interfere with the 670 Mhz signal from the translator, but I do see it daily.

I'm 7.5 miles 15 degrees North North East of the tower and I too can see it from my front door - Total Line of Sight. However, the antenna signal propagation in that direction is extremely low. I have attached a polar plot of the antenna with my azimuth shown.

There is something very weird in the FCC docs for the translator. For one thing, the service area plot (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1287498.html) does not match the polar plot (which you posted accurately). Furthermore, that polar plot appears to be exactly identical to the plot for K46JZ-D (digital 46), which is authorized to broadcast from Horsetooth but has not been turned on yet.

I'm thinking that a commission staffer may have shuffled the docs, but I really don't know. K46JZ-D's service area is almost identical to that of K47LY-D, except that the antennas are rotated 5 degrees relative to one another. They must be using the same antenna hardware.

I have no idea why the sunset phenomenon would exist or interfere with the 670 Mhz signal from the translator, but I do see it daily.

Long ago, I read up on sundown interference, but I can't find a reference now. My recollection is that it has comparable effects on all TV bands, but that the interference diminished more sharply after sundown for UHF than for VHF.


Jim McCauley

There is something very weird in the FCC docs for the translator. For one thing, the service area plot (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1287498.html) does not match the polar plot (which you posted accurately).

I believe the only time the two should come close to matching is if the transmitter is on a tower in the middle of a totally flat area. The polar plot is simply the manufacturers antenna radiation pattern. The service area plot is the result of Longley-Rice simulation which takes into account the terrain and propagation characteristics at the frequency in question. At least that is my understanding, but I am far from an expert in this area.

There is something very weird in the FCC docs for the translator. For one thing, the service area plot (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1287498.html) does not match the polar plot (which you posted accurately). Furthermore, that polar plot appears to be exactly identical to the plot for K46JZ-D (digital 46), which is authorized to broadcast from Horsetooth but has not been turned on yet.

I'm thinking that a commission staffer may have shuffled the docs, but I really don't know. K46JZ-D's service area is almost identical to that of K47LY-D, except that the antennas are rotated 5 degrees relative to one another. They must be using the same antenna hardware.



Long ago, I read up on sundown interference, but I can't find a reference now. My recollection is that it has comparable effects on all TV bands, but that the interference diminished more sharply after sundown for UHF than for VHF.


Jim McCauley

I agree that they must be using the same off the shelf antenna with the 5 degree difference in orientation.

KRMA-D RF 47 antenna
Nondirectional Directional "Off-the-shelf" •Directional composite
Manufacturer SCALA *** Model CL-1469 ARRAY

K46JZ-D RF 46 antenna
Nondirectional •Directional "Off-the-shelf" Directional composite
Manufacturer SCALA *** Model CL-1469

Both service area plots look the same except shifted.
I did a screen shot of both service areas, overlaid K46JZ-D's service area over KRMA in Photoshop, made it 50 percent opaque and rotated the K46JZ-D service area and it almost exactly matches the KRMA RF 47 service area

K46JZ-D (digital 46), ... is authorized to broadcast from Horsetooth but has not been turned on yet.

I think this is the first I've heard of that - who owns it, and what's planned for it?

I think this is the first I've heard of that - who owns it, and what's planned for it?

Entravision Holdings got the license after agreeing to give a subchannel to Word of God Fellowship (they had competing applications). So it will be religious programming from two different organizations. They have until August of 2010 to complete construction.

Hello, all. Sorry to divert a little bit. I'll be moving to Laramie this fall, and was looking to see what there was as far as OTA Television. I came up with this list of translators from the web:

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/9208/picture1z.png

I was wondering if anyone could actually verify if you can receive any or all of these stations as listed with an OTA Antenna for your television. Thanks!

Hello, all. Sorry to divert a little bit. I'll be moving to Laramie this fall, and was looking to see what there was as far as OTA Television. I came up with this list of translators from the web:

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/9208/picture1z.png

I was wondering if anyone could actually verify if you can receive any or all of these stations as listed with an OTA Antenna for your television. Thanks!

I'm curious where you got that list, because it's definitely out of date. The KGWN translator on channel 8 moved up to channel 19 I believe, when KWYP-8 (PBS) signed on several years ago.

I don't have any knowledge beyond that, but I suppose you'll have a full-service digital PBS at the very least...

- Trip

Hello, all. Sorry to divert a little bit. I'll be moving to Laramie this fall, and was looking to see what there was as far as OTA Television. I came up with this list of translators from the web:

http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/9208/picture1z.png

I was wondering if anyone could actually verify if you can receive any or all of these stations as listed with an OTA Antenna for your television. Thanks!

Try plugging your 'virtual home location' in this:

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/

I'm curious where you got that list, because it's definitely out of date. The KGWN translator on channel 8 moved up to channel 19 I believe, when KWYP-8 (PBS) signed on several years ago.

I don't have any knowledge beyond that, but I suppose you'll have a full-service digital PBS at the very least...

- Trip

I compiled it from a few sources around the net into a spreadsheet. I've found that it's hard to get a current list of translators, so I anticipated some of the data being inaccurate.



Try plugging your 'virtual home location' in this:

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/

The only thing that shows is these full power stations, no translators:
Strong Signal KWYP PBS 8-1
Weak Signal KFCT FOX 22-1

Thanks again for the info so far!

Try using your future location with TVFool. It might tell you what you can expect to receive. It checks for analogs and digitals, and offers a link that you could post here for us to look at.

- Trip

Here's what I got:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d7f14919b73a59b

Looks like they are all listed, although from the TV Fool data, its a tough call whether people can actually pick them up or not.

With that kind of margin, I should think people can receive them alright, assuming they're on the air.

Where you're out of luck is when it comes to digital signals. You're likely going to end up watching analogs, since the only digital you're going to have is KWYP.

- Trip

Here's what I got:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d7f14919b73a59b

Looks like they are all listed, although from the TV Fool data, its a tough call whether people can actually pick them up or not.

With a good strong rooftop antenna, you could Possibly pickup the top 5 Digital stations on the Post Transition list. You will need a pre-amp and most likely a rotator.

These two stations would probably be fairly easy since they transmit from a mountain East of Laramie.
KWYP-DT is a university station and I have no idea what their content is.
K19FX is a low power translator of unknown content from the documentation I can find.

KFCT-DT has a construction permit for a tower on Buckhorn Mountain west of Ft. Collins so you would not get that station until they actually move the transmitter from the prairie east of Ft. Collins.

KQCK-DT is presently off the air and no one seems to know what the status of that station will be in the future.

KGWN-DT transmits from a tower West of Cheyenne. It might work for you since I pick it up off the back of a very directional UHF YAGI antenna and my NM is -6.3dB while Laramie shows -3.9dB.

You will most likely not be able to receive the remainder without significant work.

KWYP is a Wyoming PBS station. They have SD on 8-1 and the PBS National feed (I think) on 8-5.

K19FX-D isn't on the air, to my knowledge. It's currently analog and will likely be a flash-cut some time in the future.

KGWN-DT isn't likely to be an option post-transition. TVFool is assuming the facility will be 630 kW ND whereas it's actually 459 kW DA with all the power being aimed south into Colorado, as far as I can tell. His pre-transition noise margin is the number to look at and it's much, much lower. Plus, K19FX-D (as noted above) is owned by the same company, so I imagine it'd be duplicate programming.

- Trip

I just did a channel scan after installing and cleaning up my antenna and cabling, and I'm seeing channels RF18-9 & RF18-10. There's nothing there (no programing, but signal is there.) Is this the new PBS from Horsetooth?

Also what's weird is I'm still getting 25 analog clear, but I can't get it's digital signal.

I just did a channel scan after installing and cleaning up my antenna and cabling, and I'm seeing channels RF18-9 & RF18-10. There's nothing there (no programing, but signal is there.) Is this the new PBS from Horsetooth?

No. RF18 is KRMA's main signal from Mount Morrison in Denver. The Horsetooth translator broadcasts on RF47. Since they are sending identical transport streams, they both map to channels 6-1,6-2,6-3, and 6-5 (audio only). However, they also have two data channels, which is what you are seeing. The data channels don't have mapping entries for virtual channel numbers. Most tuners ignore data channels and don't display anything about them. Both data channels are running the UpdateTV firmware updating service, although I believe the two channels run two different versions of their protocol (one being older for backwards compatibility). If you are curious you can go to www.updatelogic.com for more details.


Also what's weird is I'm still getting 25 analog clear, but I can't get it's digital signal.

Their digital signal is on RF29. It's possible that you can't receive them; however, their signal is fairly strong, so most likely the reason you can't get them is due to a programming mistake in their psip data. You aren't the only one who has trouble getting them. If your tuner has some kind of signal quality meter and also has a manual tune feature, try tuning to RF29 and see what it shows. It may very well show a strong signal but still not be able to decode. However, some tuners won't show anything on the meter if it can't decode a signal.

RF47 was working very well for me yesterday.

Today, it is back to the up and mostly down mode.

Are some of the other viewers in south or east Fort Collins seeing the same thing?

Thanks!

RF47 was working very well for me yesterday.

Today, it is back to the up and mostly down mode.

Are some of the other viewers in south or east Fort Collins seeing the same thing?

Thanks!

Not right now I am not. However, I did notice that there were some dropouts earlier, but nothing like the on again/ off again behaviour.

RF 47 has some dropouts as always, but seems the same here as yesterday. It seems more solid than it was this afternoon. I'm still relying on RF 18 from Lookout.

For me, KCNC's channel 35 signal hasn't always been the strongest, but it's been stable. I did better with KCNC than I did with KMGH before the back-to-VHF transition, and could rely on a good signal for a few things like 60 Minutes, Letterman and Big Bang Theory. Now, as of sometime late last week, it's miserable. My HR10-250 Tivo can't lock, and my Dish receiver is showing 60-62%, down a good 10% since this time last week, and at the edge of what's stable for that receiver. I'm seeing slightly better strength but lower stability due to multipath with KGWN now. Has anyone else seen a drop in KCNC's "throw" up here, or anywhere? Conversely, has anyone seen the strength go up, indicating a directional shift? This sucks - I get more stuff from CBS than any other network.

Rob T

Not right now I am not. However, I did notice that there were some dropouts earlier, but nothing like the on again/ off again behaviour.

RF 47 has some dropouts as always, but seems the same here as yesterday. It seems more solid than it was this afternoon. I'm still relying on RF 18 from Lookout.

Thanks for the report.
There is no RF47 signal at my location so I guess that I'm SOL until August.
I get a steady 25% signal from RF18, but not strong enough to lock on to.

I was getting 99% signal on the tuner in my computer a bit after 1 PM today. Excited, I rescanned for RF 47 on my Zenith CECB about three minutes later -- nothing. Now I'm monitoring the signal level continuously from my RCA CECB, which has an audible signal level indicator that stays on continuously.

Currently the KRMA-DT translator is at 0%, and it's been that way for about half an hour. Sigh.


Jim McCauley

At 2:30 this afternoon, I'm again seeing around 70% signal strength.
How long will it last???????????:confused:

Not long! very intermittent signal at 3:30.

What else can we expect from KRMA?

Walt would have been proud of this Mickey Mouse operation!!!!!!!!!

I noticed that KCNC RF35 was very strong right after it boosted its power, but not long after the LO mtn antenna failure, they either lowered their power or changed their directional characteristics. Suddenly the signal at my place (sw Fort Collins) is usually ok but can get blocky with sound dropouts when atmospheric conditions are lousy. Unwatchable under those conditions. Signal strength is about the same as KBDI RF38. KTVD RF19 just blasts in here, and KWGN RF34 is much stronger than KCNC also. Digital is great but we're screwed if conditions make it iffy.

Here north of Fort Collins, I had a total LOS from RF 47 for several hours on Tuesday (yesterday), and then it came back up. After a brief dip in mid-afternoon, it was back up to "just usable" in time for _Nightly Business Report_ at 5:30 PM, and it has remained at that level since, at least when I have checked.

My fingers ache from all the crossing...


Jim McCauley

The signal strength for RF47 has been at a stable 60% since around 10:00 AM today at my location.

I checked it at 8:30 AM and it was all over the place from barely decodable to nothing. I was working outside all day and when I came in for a break, I checked the signal.

I don't know whether KRMA fixed something at the translator or the cool weather is helping, but it was good on 5/17 which was a hot day.

I'm confused!!!!!!!

5/31
I hope I'm not jinxing myself and others, but I have had good solid reception from the translator for the past 10 days.

Ever since about 7:45 pm last night, I have not been able to get anything on RF47. The thing is, the S/N Quality is fine (around 85 on my meter), i.e. they are sending something, but there are so many errors that nothing can be decoded. I've verified the same behaviour on my CECB, i.e. good signal level, no actual program. My HD HomeRun is saying that I'm getting about 7 transport errors for each packet received. My guess is that the errors were there before they were transmitted. That is why the S/N quality is good, because that is probably based on the low level error correction that was applied to the already bad/corrupted data stream. Anyway, I just thought I'd post what I was seeing, in case anyone else was wondering about this particular failure.

At least they set a record for the amount of time before things failed this time. But that's not saying much. What is it with DTV operations on Horsetooth Mountain (by KQCK standards, KRMA is doing quite well! :))?

Ever since about 7:45 pm last night, I have not been able to get anything on RF47.

I noticed that there was no audio or video on RF47 before 6:00 Pm yesterday.
As of this morning, the RF47 signal is weaker and more inconsistent than RF18 at my location.

It will certainly be welcome when KRMA gets the RF18 signal up to strength.

EDIT 6/9
Well it seems to be back.

EDIT 6/9
Well it seems to be back.

Yes, it appears they actually fixed it on Monday afternoon. It's been perfect again since then.

Now that the dust appears to have settled, here is my report:

KWGN-DT (2.1, RF 34) Denver's CW affiliate: stable
KCBC-DT (4.1, RF 35) Denver's CBS affiliate: stable
KRMA-DT, V-me, Create (6.n, RF 47) Denver's PBS affiliate: stable
KMGH-DT (7.1, RF 7) Denver's ABC affiliate: stable
KZCO-DT (7.27, RF 7) Azteca América: stable
KUSA-DT (9.1, RF 9) Denver's NBC affiliate: stable with some motion artifacts
WX-Plus (9.2, RF 9) weather: stable with occasional compression artifacts
NBC Univ (9.3, RF 9) NBC Universal Sports: excessively compressed
KBDI-DT (12.1, RF 13) PBS independent: stable
KBDI-DC (12.1, RF 13) Documentary Channel: stable
KBDI-WV (12.1, RF 13) MHz WorldView: stable
KTFD-DT (14.1, RF 15) Telefutura: stable
KTVD-DT (20.1, RF 19) Denver's MyNetworkTV affiliate: stable
KDVR-DT (22.1, RF 21) actually KFCT-DT; repeats KDVR-DT: frequent breakups
KDEN-DT (25.1, RF 29) Longmont's Telemundo affiliate: stable
KDVR-DT (31.1, RF 32) Denver's Fox affiliate: stable
KPJR-DT (38.n, RF 38) Greeley's Trinity affiliate: stable
KRMT-DT (40.1, RF 41) Denver's Daystar affiliate: stable
KCEC-DT (50.1, RF 51) Denver's Univision affiliate: stable
KPXC-DT (59.n, RF 43) Denver's ION affiliate: stable with occasional compression artifacts

I "broke out" the KUSA complex because its compression strategies make the veiwing experience different for each subchannel.


Jim McCauley

It appears as if I'm not going to get good reliable reception until RF18 lights up at full power.:mad:

The last two days I've had low signal with little audio and constant Video breakup.

Maybe by winter!:confused:

It appears as if I'm not going to get good reliable reception until RF18 lights up at full power.:mad:

The last two days I've had low signal with little audio and constant Video breakup.

Maybe by winter!:confused:

The RF47 signal has been stable for me. I think that you may never be able to get reliable service from it at your location (even if the translator itself should remain reliable for a significant amount of time).

Do you get KRMA on RF18 at all? Even an occasional lock? My guess is that if you can get it at all you should be able to get it reliably if they follow through with their plans. How well to you receive KTFD?

The RF47 signal has been stable for me. I think that you may never be able to get reliable service from it at your location (even if the translator itself should remain reliable for a significant amount of time).

Do you get KRMA on RF18 at all? Even an occasional lock? My guess is that if you can get it at all you should be able to get it reliably if they follow through with their plans. How well to you receive KTFD?

I'm sure that my location and the extremely directional qualities of the broadcast antenna are the limiting factors in reception of RF47. However, reception has been very good through all the unsettled weather until Wednesday when it went bad.

Yes I do receive RF18 occasionally and at times with a stronger signal than RF47. I expect that if they would move the present antenna up higher on the tower, I would have no problem receiving the present 115 kW (or is it 315 kW?) signal.

I have always received CH14(RF15) from that same tower at a good strength and they are at 200 kW while KRMA will be at 1,000 kW when they get finalized.

I've been meaning to post about this since before the analog cutoff, so apologies if this would have saved you some steps in the past.

I have a couple of OTA tools I haven't been using lately, and I would offer anyone in the Fort Collins area the opportunity to try them out to see if they help. I'd expect them back, but might be willing to make a deal on them if they work out for you. The items are:

- Zenith Silver Sensor indoor antenna
This is one of the smallest and most effective indoor antennas, and looks cool, too.
This is in excellent condition.

- Channel Master CM7775 preamplifier (UHF only)
This is a beautiful preamp with a low noise figure; the only reason I'm not using it
is that I have a full-range antenna and needed something that would not block VHF
after the analog cutoff. This unit has had some outside time.

- Winegard HDP-269 preamplifier (VHF/UHF)
This preamp was my first alternate to the CM7775, but it doesn't give me enough gain.
I bought it because I was worried about overload, and this preamp has modest gain but
is very, very hard to overload. In the end, though, I needed more gain and went to
a CM7778. This unit is practically new and has never been outside.

If you think any of these might solve your problems, let me know by private mail and
we can talk.

Rob T

I would really appreciate some help. Our house is near the foothills and I have a clear shoot at Lookout Mountain parallel to the foothils. I have a CM 7777 pre-amp and I'm using separate inputs. For the UFH I have a CM 4228 HD and for VHF I have an old Radio Shack Long-Range VHF/UHF/FM antenna - stop laughing. The antennas are mounted in the attic. Have great signals from all major stations including KRMA. However, I barely get a signal for KBDI (RF 13) - only enough to get the station id (0-15%)

I was thinking of upgrading to the Winegard YA1713 for the upper VHF band to get RF channel 13. Here is where I could use some help - in reviewing the fcc antenna site (Google Maps Terrain) it would appear the Squaw Pass signal needs to go over top the foothills behind our house. The elevation gain to their antenna is 6210' and it is 50.2 mi away. So the rize/run is about 124'/mi - the hill behind our house is 240' higher than our house and is 3000' away. It would appear that we are blocked by the hill. Do you feel this true? Or will the signal find its way here via reflections? Should I give the YA1713 a try - it looks like it has good gain on CH 13, and should pick up RF 9 (off by 15 degrees).

I should stop here but when tweaking the Radio Shack antenna for CH 9 (Giving up on 12). The best signal stregth occurs when it is pointed farther SE - off by at least 30 degrees as compared to the UHF antenna which matches the fcc website. Any thoughts?

Details on RS antenna:
Radio Shack TV-FM antenna #15-1718A (over 20 years old):
12' 6" boom
8 elements VHF low (V-shape)
4 elements FM (includes VHF channel 6, I guess)
9 elements VHF high
16 elements UHF (channels 14-83)
75 ohm coupler at antenna

I would really appreciate some help. Our house is near the foothills ....

It would be helpful if you can give some more detail related to your location. A nearby intersection perhaps or coordinates.

Our location is 3/4 mi west of Lon Hagler, and the ridge is 1/4 mi beyond our house.

Thanks,
Bill

Our location is 3/4 mi west of Lon Hagler, and the ridge is 1/4 mi beyond our house.

Thanks,
Bill

I ran a profile from the extreme NW corner of Kyle Cir to KDBI and that ridge is the only significant thing in your LOS to KDBI. I'm attaching the profile and Kyle Cir is at the left end.

I have a YA1713 6 ft above my roof peak with a CM7777 and I can't receive KBDI, but I have Horsetooth Mt directly in my LOS to KBDI with 2100 ft elevation gain in 7.5 miles and then between Horsetooth and Squaw MT there is another tall mountain that shadows me even more.

About the only advice I can offer is to try a YA1713 tilted up just over the ridge top aimed at KBDI and hopefully you will not be too shadowed to receive a good signal. Rooftop is always better.

John,

Thanks for taking time to create the profile - I would have not thought of it and it is such a clear visual. After spending this much time on investigation, I would like to get the antenna just to find out the answer. It sounds like even though we have a hill in our line of sight some of the signal may make it over the top.

I'm sorry to hear that Horsetooth is in your path. Squaw Pass is an interesting choice for an antenna site.

Thanks again,
Bill

John,

Thanks for taking time to create the profile - I would have not thought of it and it is such a clear visual. After spending this much time on investigation, I would like to get the antenna just to find out the answer. It sounds like even though we have a hill in our line of sight some of the signal may make it over the top.

I'm sorry to hear that Horsetooth is in your path. Squaw Pass is an interesting choice for an antenna site.

Thanks again,
Bill

If you get the antenna, let us know how it works out for you.

The real culprits are Thoridin Mt. and Starr Peak south of Pinecliff in Coal Creek Canyon or SE of Nederland. Both are about 17 miles from the KBDI antenna, almost 10,500 feet and they throw a huge shadow over Horsetooth.
Each of those 3 are directly in line between me and KBDI.

I ran a profile from the extreme NW corner of Kyle Cir to KDBI and that ridge is the only significant thing in your LOS to KDBI. I'm attaching the profile and Kyle Cir is at the left end.

I have a YA1713 6 ft above my roof peak with a CM7777 and I can't receive KBDI, but I have Horsetooth Mt directly in my LOS to KBDI with 2100 ft elevation gain in 7.5 miles and then between Horsetooth and Squaw MT there is another tall mountain that shadows me even more.

About the only advice I can offer is to try a YA1713 tilted up just over the ridge top aimed at KBDI and hopefully you will not be too shadowed to receive a good signal. Rooftop is always better.

Based on the http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/
Our coordinates are: 40.185627,-105.076976

How do we obtain and interpret the profile?

We have an attic mounted DB8 in our single story house.

Based on the http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/maps/
Our coordinates are: 40.185627,-105.076976

How do we obtain and interpret the profile?

We have an attic mounted DB6 in our single story house.

I ran the profile on Delorme Topo software.
Are you just interested in KBDI?
I did the Delorme KBDI profile and it is attached.
Your location is at the left of the profile.

Another way to get a good idea what is in your path is to go to TVFool.com and enter your coordinates for all the TV stations possibly available to you. When you have the list, just click on the station you are interested in and a profile with shadowing colors will be produced. It is fairly accurate and shows the same high points that Delorme shows.
I also attached a TVFool profile screen shot for you to compare.

Let me know if I can be of further assistance.

I ran the profile on Delorme Topo software.
Are you just interested in KBDI?
I did the Delorme KBDI profile and it is attached.
Your location is at the left of the profile.

Another way to get a good idea what is in your path is to go to TVFool.com and enter your coordinates for all the TV stations possibly available to you. When you have the list, just click on the station you are interested in and a profile with shadowing colors will be produced. It is fairly accurate and shows the same high points that Delorme shows.
I also attached a TVFool profile screen shot for you to compare.

Let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Thank you. It looks like (once KRMA 6 has moved to the tower) KBDI 12 followed by 7 KMGH and 9 KUSA will be my biggest challenges.

I plan to remove my Terk 55 and then, I will be able to move my DB8 up (maybe a foot). Some people mention tilting.???

Thank you. It looks like (once KRMA 6 has moved to the tower) KBDI 12 followed by 7 KMGH and 9 KUSA will be my biggest challenges.

Some people mention tilting.???

Delorme says the peak you're deflecting over from KBDI is 4049 feet above your location and 25+ miles out. That's 1 degree 45 minutes according to my trig tables.
You are LOS to the Lake Cedar and KRMA towers, so a small tilt may or may not have an affect.

Hopefully the DB8 will give you enough signal strength through your roof.

jamjar - quick update, I ordered the antenna last weekend but the retailer is out of stock. They thought they would have it today but looks like not until Monday.

It is crazy that consumers aren't spending money when their is no inventory. I'm nervous as have heard horror stories from neighbors waiting for months to get their products. Maybe I'll get lucky and Winegard will hire back an employee or two to build some antennas. Who knows perhaps they will buy the aluminum from Alcoa.

Once, I have the antenna I'll let you know the results

Thanks again for your help,
Bill G.

CIA VIEWER said. It looks like (once KRMA 6 has moved to the tower) KBDI 12 followed by 7 KMGH and 9 KUSA will be my biggest challenges.

I plan to remove my Terk 55 and then, I will be able to move my DB8 up (maybe a foot). Some people mention tilting.???

From your note it sounds like you are able to get channel 4 off lookout mountian. It is interesting that Ch 12 (RF 13), Ch 9 (RF 9) Ch 7 (RF 7) are all VHF channels - My thought is the DB8 is working well for you and is receiving channel 4 a UHF signal off the same tower as Ch 7 & 9. Perhaps a better VHF antenna would solve your problems at least for 7 & 9. Several of us to the north of you are getting excellent reception of 7 & 9.

Just a thought.

From your note it sounds like you are able to get channel 4 off lookout mountian. It is interesting that Ch 12 (RF 13), Ch 9 (RF 9) Ch 7 (RF 7) are all VHF channels - My thought is the DB8 is working well for you and is receiving channel 4 a UHF signal off the same tower as Ch 7 & 9. Perhaps a better VHF antenna would solve your problems at least for 7 & 9. Several of us to the north of you are getting excellent reception of 7 & 9.

Just a thought.

Too Close to the BLeading Edge: Reception was pretty good a year ago when the only VHF station of interest was analog 6 KRMA. I bought my DB8 to supplement my Terk-55:

Terk-55 ==> VHF ==> ||
DB8 =====> UHF ==> || Pico Macom UVSJ ==>
Reception was pretty good:
KRMA analog 6 was good.
2 KWGN-DT 100
4 KCNC-DT 90
6 KRMA-DT 0
7 KMGH-DT 92
9 KUSA-DT 92
12 KBDI-DT 64
14 KTFD-DT 91
20 KTVD-DT 100
25 KDEN-DT 72
31 KDVR-DT 95
50 KCEC-DT 89
59 KPXC-DT 77

With the reversion back to VHF I lost 12, 7 and 9.
When 6 stopped analog programming I disconnected the Terk-55 and regained 12, 7 and 9 somewhat:
(7) 7.1 KMGH-DT 68 184 S Lookout
(9) 9.1 KUSA-DT 80 184 S Lookout
(13)12.1 KBDI-DTV 50 202 SSW Squaw

Too Close to the BLeading Edge:

With the reversion back to VHF I lost 12, 7 and 9.
When 6 stopped analog programming I disconnected the Terk-55 and regained 12, 7 and 9 somewhat:
(7) 7.1 KMGH-DT 68 184 S Lookout
(9) 9.1 KUSA-DT 80 184 S Lookout
(13)12.1 KBDI-DTV 50 202 SSW Squaw

It appears as if you do not have a pre-amp in the equation, so perhaps a Winegard HDP-269 might get what you are looking for from the DB-8 without another antenna in your attic.
rthurlow in Fort collins posted that he has one that he is not using and would be willing to work out something if someone wanted to test. His post is HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16737563#post16737563)

A small 5 element VHF Yagi antenna might be the boost you need on VHF.
This would probably require stripping the VHF from your DB-8 before you combine the two antenna signals.

It appears as if you do not have a pre-amp in the equation, so perhaps a Winegard HDP-269 might get what you are looking for from the DB-8 without another antenna in your attic.
rthurlow in Fort collins posted that he has one that he is not using and would be willing to work out something if someone wanted to test. His post is HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16737563#post16737563)

The RG6 antenna cable runs from the attic to an OnQ 3x8 Video Module in the basement (Home run panel). That output is distributed in the house.

Power is not readily available in our attic.

I have tried the tiny 'amplifier' that came with the Terk TV-55: a) just before the Video Module and b) just before one of the TVs. I could see no benefit.

Any idea if the Winegard HDP-269 could be any benefit just before the OnQ 3x8 Video Module?

A small 5 element VHF Yagi antenna might be the boost you need on VHF.
This would probably require stripping the VHF from your DB-8 before you combine the two antenna signals.

The picture shows that things are tight. This was taken while the Terk was still in use with the Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner.

The east end of our house seems to face ~ 240 degrees southwest. I think the DB8 might be aimed ~ 210 deg.

The iron content of the DB8 tends to confuse my compass.

Any idea if the Winegard HDP-269 could be any benefit just before the OnQ 3x8 Video Module?


Antenna preamps are meant to be installed as close to the antenna as possible. In fact, if your antenna is installed outdoors the antenna preamp is typically installed outdoors.

The lack of power in your attic is not a problem, since the power is supplied by a separate power supply that you can install near the OnQ Video module. The power is carried over the RG6 cable to the preamp. Ideally there should not be any splitters between the power supply and the preamp, but if that is required then you need to make sure that the splitter(s) pass DC power through, ideally only on the side that the power supply is connected to.

Note that the DB8 is not very good at all for VHF. Have you compared what you get via VHF from the DB8 and what you get from the Terk antenna? The Terk antenna is not a great antenna for VHF either, but it may be better than the DB8. You really should consider installing a high VHF antenna in your attic to complement your DB8.

The RG6 antenna cable runs from the attic to an OnQ 3x8 Video Module in the basement (Home run panel).

Any idea if the Winegard HDP-269 could be any benefit just before the OnQ 3x8 Video Module?


For a test, you could probably insert pre-amp and power supply just before the OnQ 3x8 with a short RG6 between the amp and PS and another short RG6 from PS to OnQ 3x8.
DB8======>amp=>PS=>OnQ 3x8

If that approaches the result you need then move the amp and short RG6 to the attic. It is my understanding that it is best to have the amp as close to the antenna as practical to avoid amplifying any noise that may be picked up in the long run of RG6.
DB8=amp>======>PS=>OnQ 3x8

It appears as if you do not have a pre-amp in the equation, so perhaps a Winegard HDP-269 might get what you are looking for from the DB-8 without another antenna in your attic.
rthurlow in Fort collins posted that he has one that he is not using and would be willing to work out something if someone wanted to test. His post is HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16737563#post16737563)


rthurlow's HDP-269 has been claimed. :)

It works great for me--it boosted most stations several points and allowed me to install a couple of splitters. I think the previous pre-amp I had tried overloaded too easily (and lightning really caused it a lot of distress) so I had disconnected it.

Mark

cia_viewer,

I sent you a private message.

I am testing out a borrowed Winegard 8275 pre-amp. So far it seems to provide improvement:

========================================= 1:35 PM 7/17/2009
RF Ch ClSgn Sgnl Dir Location Dist.
(34) 2.1 KWGN-DT 100 185 S Lookout 32.4Mi
(35) 4.1 KCNC-DT 89 184 S Lookout 32.5Mi
(18) 6.1 KRMA-DT 0 181 S Morrison 36.2Mi
(7) 7.1 KMGH-DT 65 184 S Lookout 32.5Mi
(9) 9.1 KUSA-DT 81 184 S Lookout 32.5Mi
(13)12.1 KBDI-DTV 33 202 SSW Squaw 41.4Mi
(15)14.1 KTFD-DT 90 181 S Morrison 36.4Mi
(19)20.1 KTVD-DT 99 184 S Lookout 32.5Mi
(21)22.1 KFCT-DT 0-28 14 N Pierce? 34.4Mi
(29)25.1 KDEN-DT 85 113 ESE Dacono 11Mi
(32)31.1 KDVR-DT 94 185 S Lookout 32.7Mi
(11)33.1 KQCK-DT 65 335 NNW Horsetooth? 25.7Mi
(38)38.1 KPJR-DT 93 113 ESE Dacono 11Mi
(51)50.1 KCEC-DT 82 185 S Lookout 32.4Mi
(43)59.1 KPXC-DT 87 113 ESE Dacono 11Mi
-------------------------
======= with Winegard 8275 pre-amp ====== 2:05 PM 7/17/2009
RF Ch ClSgn Sgnl Dir Location Dist.
(34) 2.1 KWGN-DT 100 185 S Lookout 32.4Mi
(35) 4.1 KCNC-DT 91 184 S Lookout 32.5Mi
(18) 6.1 KRMA-DT 0 181 S Morrison 36.2Mi
(24) 6.1 KRMA-DT 50 ? S Boulder?
(7) 7.1 KMGH-DT 66 184 S Lookout 32.5Mi
(9) 9.1 KUSA-DT 79 184 S Lookout 32.5Mi
(13)12.1 KBDI-DTV 64 202 SSW Squaw 41.4Mi
(15)14.1 KTFD-DT 97 181 S Morrison 36.4Mi
(19)20.1 KTVD-DT 99 184 S Lookout 32.5Mi
(21)22.1 KFCT-DT 0-31 14 N Pierce? 34.4Mi
(29)25.1 KDEN-DT 85 113 ESE Dacono 11Mi
(32)31.1 KDVR-DT 96 185 S Lookout 32.7Mi
(11)33.1 KQCK-DT 67 335 NNW Horsetooth? 25.7Mi
(38)38.1 KPJR-DT 95 113 ESE Dacono 11Mi
(51)50.1 KCEC-DT 92 185 S Lookout 32.4Mi
(43)59.1 KPXC-DT 91 113 ESE Dacono 11Mi
-------------------------
Before we could not receive 6 KRMA-DT (RF18) on Morrison nor KRMA repeater in Boulder RF(24). Now we can on TiVo and HDTV.

Before 12 KBDI-DT RF(13) reception was unreliable on TiVo and absent on our HDTV. Now it is available on our HDTV.

So far, I an unaware of any 'overloading' or other problems.

I have a quick question. Is anyone in downtown Cheyenne able to get KWYP (8.5)? I don't seem to have any luck with an indoor antenna.

I wanted to provide an update on my situation. Our house is near the foothills and I have a clear shoot at Lookout Mountain parallel to the hills. I have a CM 7777 pre-amp and I'm using separate inputs. For the UFH I have a CM 4228 HD and for VHF I have an old Radio Shack Long-Range VHF/UHF/FM antenna and I’m considering upgrading to a YA1713. The antennas are mounted in the attic. Have great signals from all major stations including KRMA. However, I barely get a signal for KBDI (RF 13) - only enough to get the station id (0-15%)

Using the fcc antenna site and Jamjar’s profile of the mountain’s it would appear that I need a 200’ tower for true line of site. TVfools map looks a bit more promising. After this much research I had to know the answer. I received the YA1713 today and pointed it toward KBDI and it works beautifully – it is the weakest signal but seems acceptable. The YA1713 is not as sensitive to direction as the UFH antenna – So even with a more western trajectory I still get the other VHF signals (9 and 7). Lastly, I also upgraded converter boxes to the CM7000 – this also improved the signal strength and the picture quality.

Thanks so much for all your help.

.....
Using the fcc antenna site and Jamjar’s profile of the mountain’s it would appear that I need a 200’ tower for true line of site.
.....


Good to hear you are getting good reception.

A good antenna and a fair amount of deflection can work wonders.

I was a bit concerned about the ridge being so close, but not knowing your exact location, there may be a low area in the ridge nearby to LOS that the signal is deflecting around. Doesn't necessarily have to be over the top.

On 7.1 KMGH-DT we had pixelation ~ 5:35pm... early in the World News with Charlie Gibson. Any ideas why? It cleared up later in the program.

FYI, KRMA was operating their Channel 47 translator in Fort Collins under a STA, pending approval of their application. The application was approved, so now they have permission to continue to operate the translator for the long term.

FYI, KRMA was operating their Channel 47 translator in Fort Collins under a STA, pending approval of their application. The application was approved, so now they have permission to continue to operate the translator for the long term.

Unless they do something about the antenna pattern, that doesn't do anything for those of us who are North of Horsetooth Mt.
I suspect that a lot of folks to the West like Redstone & Rist Canyons would also benefit from a less directional antenna.

In Northeast Longmont, we had the temporary reception of KRMA RF(24) repeater signal. We achieved it while our attic mounted configuration was:

_______________________________________________
(__________Terk_TV-55______not_Connected_______)

################## ###################
################## ###################
################## ###################
################## ###################
######DB-8######### ###################
################## ###################
################## ###################
################## ###################
################## ###################
################## ###################
################## ###################
################## ###################
################## ###################
################## ###################
################## ###################

The Terk TV-55 was about a foot above the DB-8 and its cable was dangling.
The DB-8 was is still connected through a Winegard 8275 pre-amp to the video amplifier to our HD TiVo.

We had the KRMA reception for several days. The Winegard 8275 was laying on top of the attic insulation.

Then I 'improved' things by:
1) removing the Terk TV-55
2) Raising the DB-8 on the 'mast'
3) mounting the Winegard 8275 onto the 'mast'

We no longer receive KRMA RF(24) repeater signal. People at KRMA cannot understand why we ever received it.

Any guesses?
Was the Terk serving as some kind of 'reflector'?
Is one foot higher disrupt the DB-8 'magic spot'?
Working in the attic is not taken lightly.

In Northeast Longmont, we had the temporary reception of KRMA RF(24) repeater signal.
…
We no longer receive KRMA RF(24) repeater signal. People at KRMA cannot understand why we ever received it.

Any guesses?
…

You could have encountered any number of things.
It seems that Digital reception can be good to bad in a mere matter of inches or degrees of orientation.
There may have been some atmospheric conditions that were getting the RF 24 signal to you.

Relief is on the way according to the following post from the KRMA Transition Blog.
"Linda in Viewer Services
Friday, July 24, 2009 8:56 a.m.
We've verified with the Engineering Department that we'll have full power (1MW) on Monday 8/10. The antenna will be shipped 7/30, then put up on Mount Morrison 8/1. Installation will proceed and the turn-on date is 8/10."

Hello all!

I have been a lurker for a long time and thought I would participate and share my results and equipment list. This forum has been very helpful and key in the building of my system. A big Thanks to all of you. I have posted a few times in the past, but this is the most recent setup.


Roof Mounted Antenna
Channel Master 3018 HDTV UHF/ VHF/ FM TV Antenna
Radioshack In-Line Signal Amplifier Model: 15-1170
Samsung TX P3071WH Telivision with built-in HD Tuner

Location: Near Shields and Mountain

Channel Reception Listing

All channels are stable and present no sun effect with the exception of 22.1

2-1
4-1
6-1
6-2
6-3
6-5 (???) Locked but blank screen
7-1
7-27
9-1
9-2
9-3
11-1
12-1
12-2
12-3
20-1
22-1 (artifacts and breakups during daylight hours)
25-1
31-1
38-1
38-2
38-3
38-4
38-5
50-1
59-1
59-2
59-3
59-4


Thanks again for all your help.

Jack

I have been a lurker for a long time and thought I would participate[...]

Welcome, Jack!

6-5 (???) Locked but blank screen

6-5 is an audio-only channel that carries programming for the vision-impaired.


Jim McCauley

Thanks for the information Jim. I am in the process of setting up up a PVR based on Windows 7 MCE. It looks like getting some of the guide information could be a challenge for some of the more obscure channels. I will let you know how it all works out.

Jack

I have been working on getting back the Wyoming channels. The Channel Master 3018 has a shorter UHF range than the RadioShack U-75R UHF only Antenna that I have been using. While it is more than sufficient to hit Lookout Mountain I could not pull the Wyoming channels off the back side of the antenna. I mounted up the U-75R on the same mast and pointed it the opposite direction of the 3018. I connected them with a 300 ohm wire from connector to connector. I know this is a big no-no but I just thought I would give it a try. Guess what? It worked. I sacrificed only the 12.X channels and picked up 5.1 and the Fox station. Everything is really solid and I have the best reception to date.

Some information about Laramie, Wyoming:

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/8334/laramie.png

Here are my results of what I could pickup OTA with a HDTV. The only digital was from KWYP, the rest is still all analog translators.

KRMA is now broadcasting at full power from their Mt. Morrison site (RF channel 18). They will only be doing that during the evening for the next few days, i.e. they will go back to low power during the day on Tuesday and Wednesday so that they can complete their tower work. They should be at full power on a permanent basis starting Wednesday evening.

Anyway, I've never had trouble picking them up from Mt. Morrison, but I can see a signal strength improvement which now puts them on par with KCNC and other strong stations that I receive.

So, I'm curious to see reception reports from those in northern Colorado, especially those who are not able to receive the signal from the RF47 translator reliably.

So, I'm curious to see reception reports from those in northern Colorado, especially those who are not able to receive the signal from the RF47 translator reliably.

RF-18 is coming great for me and RF-47 is still bad.

RF-18 is coming great for me and RF-47 is still bad.
I suspect that RF47 is only going to be useful for those with indoor UHF antenna's. Those of use with high quality directional antenna's are going to using the Mt. Morrison feed instead.

I suspect that RF47 is only going to be useful for those with indoor UHF antenna's. Those of use with high quality directional antenna's are going to using the Mt. Morrison feed instead.

No indoor antenna is going to get RF47 at my location.
My Yagi is pointed almost directly at the tower LOS.
The transmitter antenna is just too directional to be of any value except to those in a quadrant NE to SE of the tower.

With my outdoor antenna pointed south, I still get RF 47 slightly stronger than RF 18, even though it is about 90 degrees off-axis. Both are 90+ on the scale. But I can also get 47 with an indoor antenna.

Mark

No indoor antenna is going to get RF47 at my location.
My Yagi is pointed almost directly at the tower LOS.
The transmitter antenna is just too directional to be of any value except to those in a quadrant NE to SE of the tower.
Right, I was trying to imply that. What I meant was that I am in the ideal location for RF47 reception (right at the center of where their antenna is aiming), but I still prefer the RF18 feed because I get occasional glitches on RF47 due to multipath problems, caused by the highly directional nature of my UHF (CM 4228) antenna. But if I hooked up an indoor UHF antenna loop I would probably get RF47 just fine, and probably wouldn't even see the signal on RF18, at least on the first floor.


With my outdoor antenna pointed south, I still get RF 47 slightly stronger than RF 18, even though it is about 90% off-axis. Both are 90+ on the scale. But I can also get 47 with an indoor antenna.
Mark

I get both of them quite strong also, but RF18 is slightly stronger, which as I mentioned above, is probably due to how directional my antenna is. I can actually see the RF47 antenna from my house.

So, I was watching my recording of the 1st (2 hour) episode of the new season of House, and noticed sudden jumps to commercials that seemed to cut the program off too soon. I checked the tuner statistics for the recording, and it didn't indicate any dropouts or other errors. So, was there something wrong with my recording, or did others see the same thing?

jsmar,

I saw the same thing but only at the end of the show. Commercial cut in during the re-birthday cake scene and then again when he was on the bus. I think it was just a network snafu and not a reception issue.

It looks like KLWY dropped their SD subchannel and replaced it with an SD feed from KTWO (from Casper, WY). KTWO is an ABC affiliate, so this brings OTA ABC programming back to the Cheyenne market. It may also help people in northern Colorado who don't have the right antenna to receive high VHF from KMGH in Denver.

Note, I haven't actually watched the subchannel yet (I'll check it tonight) -- I am basing this purely on the PSIP data they are sending.

Anything change that would warrant new TSReader data? (I'll wait for your confirmation before I actually change my listing.)

- Trip

Note, I haven't actually watched the subchannel yet (I'll check it tonight) -- I am basing this purely on the PSIP data they are sending.

I have looked at the subchannel and verified that 27.2 does contain ABC programming. However, many of you may not be able to see it, even if you get KLWY. The reason is that they have set the PSIP "hidden" flag for that subchannel. Depending on whether or not your tuner honors that flag you may not be able to find any evidence of the existance of channel 27.2. I experimented with my Zenith DTT900 and my DTVpal. The Zenith DTT900 honors the "hidden" flag and shows no evidence of the subchannel. The DTVpal ignores the "hidden" flag and therefore shows the channel without any problem (once you scan for additional channels).

I am curious about how different hardware behaves with respect to this "hidden" flag. I expect that this flag won't be set for long, so I'd like to request that people who can receive KLWY try the experiment of trying to receive 27.2, including doing a rescan (if you can't get it on your first attempt at scanning for additional channels). Please post what your results are. I've also made the same request on the Denver DTV forum.

[...]so I'd like to request that people who can receive KLWY try the experiment of trying to receive 27.2[...]

I am receiving 27-1 only on my Zenith DTT900, but I am receiving both 27-1 and 27-2 on my RCA DTA800B CECB, as well as on my media PC with an ATI HDTV Wonder running MythTV under Ubuntu Linux.

I have looked at the subchannel and verified that 27.2 does contain ABC programming.

Odd. I am getting ABC programming on 27-1 and Fox programming on 27-2. Did they swap the services recently? The EIT data on my PC setup shows Fox info on 27-1 despite the ABC content, which may be the source of confusion. I get no EIT data at all for 27-2.


Jim McCauley
Fort Collins CO

I've noticed a drop in detected signal on all my receivers, across the board, and after checking all the cables and connections, I suspect my preamplifier, a modest Leviton unit.

What preamps have people been using with good success up here?


Jim McCauley
Fort Collins CO

Odd. I am getting ABC programming on 27-1 and Fox programming on 27-2. Did they swap the services recently? The EIT data on my PC setup shows Fox info on 27-1 despite the ABC content, which may be the source of confusion. I get no EIT data at all for 27-2.


Jim McCauley
Fort Collins CO

I assume you are receiving Fox programming on 27.1 on your Zenith DTT900. The Zenith unit seems to be the most dynamic in terms of figuring thngs out without needing a rescan. I believe the switch you are seeing on your other devices are due to them needing rescans (possibly fulll reset/rescans) to straighten things out. The fox programming on 27.1 is using the same underlying pid's that it was using when it was on 27.2, and the KTWO programming on 27.2 is using the same underlying pids that were used by the FOX SD programming when it was on 27.1.

I've noticed a drop in detected signal on all my receivers, across the board, and after checking all the cables and connections, I suspect my preamplifier, a modest Leviton unit.

What preamps have people been using with good success up here?


Jim McCauley
Fort Collins CO

The best preamps are made by Winegard and Channel Master. Having had a Winegard previously, and switching to a Channel Master, my anecdotal evidence makes me believe that Channel Master is slightly better. Their best preamps are the 7777 and the 7778. The 7777 offers higher gain than the 7778, perhaps too much, depending on how many splitters you have after the preamp. However, the 7777 has slightly lower noise figures than the 7778, probably not enough to make a significant difference. I'm using the 7777 and I believe rthurlow is using the 7778, both with great success.

I would recommend ordering the 7777 or 7778 from Warren Electronics. Solid Signal seems to always have these preamps on back order, and they charge about $18 more for them.

And there are a couple CM 7778's available right here in northern Colorado, if you're interested in one. Sorry, can't promote any particular business on the forum, so contact me via personal message if you need more info.

Just wondering if the "hidden" flag is still set on 27.2.

I can receive it on my DTVPal and Samsung SIR-T351 but not on my Hughes HTL-HD DirecTV receiver. Rescanning hasn't helped.

Just wondering if the "hidden" flag is still set on 27.2.

I can receive it on my DTVPal and Samsung SIR-T351 but not on my Hughes HTL-HD DirecTV receiver. Rescanning hasn't helped.

Yes, it is still set. It perhaps made some sense to do this for a few days (to reduce confusion for those looking for Fox HD on 27.2), but I don't think it makes sense anymore. Perhaps they are not aware that they are doing it.

Yes, it is still set. It perhaps made some sense to do this for a few days (to reduce confusion for those looking for Fox HD on 27.2), but I don't think it makes sense anymore. Perhaps they are not aware that they are doing it.

This prompted me to talk to the station engineer. It turns out that they did set the hidden flag intentionally. They are providing K2 programming on 27.2 so that it can be fed to some local cable companies. Eventually they plan to either encrypt it or find another distribution method (e.g. direct feed). So, for those who are able to get 27.2, enjoy it while it lasts, although, if I had to guess, it will probably be around for a while.

Possibly off topic but I'm not sure where else to ask this: I have basic Comcast cable and scanned all the channels and I get 4-1, 7-1, 9-1 & 31-1 for HD channels. There is a channel 20-1 but it's blacked out. On 9-1 last night they said the Monday Night Football game would be broadcast locally but not on 9-1. They said it would be my 'MY20' instead and I assumed this to mean 20-1. Two part question: Is MY20 indeed 20-1 or is it another channel and if it is 20-1 will the blackout turn into a football game come 6:30 or is there somethign else I need to do?

Thanks for the help. I haven't had a chance to put up an antenna at our new place so I don't know what we get OTA.

Anyone else having a hard time with 7-1 or is it just me? I've got an antenna up at the new place finally and when I scan I'm not getting 7-1 but have solid signal on the rest (4-1, 20-1, 31-1 etc) so I'm wondering if anyone else is having issues or if it should show up fine if I've got solid signal on the rest.

Anyone else having a hard time with 7-1 or is it just me? I've got an antenna up at the new place finally and when I scan I'm not getting 7-1 but have solid signal on the rest (4-1, 20-1, 31-1 etc) so I'm wondering if anyone else is having issues or if it should show up fine if I've got solid signal on the rest.

Jeremy,
I'm in a pretty difficult location and i get Channel 7 just fine, but i do have a Winegard YA-1713 VHF antenna and a CM-7777 preamp on my roof for the VHF channels. I do not get KBDI Ch 12 as Horsetooth Mtn and 2 other higher peaks are in my direct LOS to Squaw Mtn.

What antenna set up do you have and where are you located more precisely than Northern Colorado.

Jeremy,
I'm in a pretty difficult location and i get Channel 7 just fine, but i do have a Winegard YA-1713 VHF antenna and a CM-7777 preamp on my roof for the VHF channels. I do not get KBDI Ch 12 as Horsetooth Mtn and 2 other higher peaks are in my direct LOS to Squaw Mtn.

What antenna set up do you have and where are you located more precisely than Northern Colorado.

Oh dear, I have a feeling you will say the antenna is the problem when you see this pic but here goes....

http://coracing.net/gallery/d/12763-2/DTVAntenna.jpg

I made it yesterday and it works great for the most part. Got better reception than I got with a roof mounted $100 Yagi so stage one seems to be alright. I'm planning to mount a reflective back plate to it and put it up in the attic with a little more fine tuning to the direction and back feed the three receivers with it. For now I just connected it as it looks and leaned it against a wall on a shelf near my A/V equipment in the closet of my master bedroom. I get upper 80's on the channels I get with it just sitting like that so I'm pretty confident that 90's once it's done and in the attic will be attainable. I mean if I'm getting 86% on 4-1 shouldn't that be good enough to at least get a lock on 7-1 since they broadcast about the same strength from the same location?

I'm located in NW Loveland near the foothills which can't be helping me.

...
I made it yesterday and it works great for the most part. Got better reception than I got with a roof mounted $100 Yagi so stage one seems to be alright. I'm planning to mount a reflective back plate to it and put it up in the attic with a little more fine tuning to the direction and back feed the three receivers with it. For now I just connected it as it looks and leaned it against a wall on a shelf near my A/V equipment in the closet of my master bedroom. I get upper 80's on the channels I get with it just sitting like that so I'm pretty confident that 90's once it's done and in the attic will be attainable. I mean if I'm getting 86% on 4-1 shouldn't that be good enough to at least get a lock on 7-1 since they broadcast about the same strength from the same location?

I'm located in NW Loveland near the foothills which can't be helping me.

The antenna you constructed is a UHF only antenna. That's why it seem to work fine for the UHF stations, but you can't get 7 on it. You probably are not getting 9 very well if at all either. You'll need to combine that antenna with a VHF antenna to get good reception on 7 and 9 (and possibly KBDI on RF13 also). it's possible you could get 7 and 9 with rabbit ears indoors, but you're pretty far away to be able to do that successfully (although I know a few people in Fort Collins who are lucky enough to get away with rabbit ears for receiving 7 and 9).

The antenna you constructed is a UHF only antenna. That's why it seem to work fine for the UHF stations, but you can't get 7 on it. You probably are not getting 9 very well if at all either. You'll need to combine that antenna with a VHF antenna to get good reception on 7 and 9 (and possibly KBDI on RF13 also). it's possible you could get 7 and 9 with rabbit ears indoors, but you're pretty far away to be able to do that successfully (although I know a few people in Fort Collins who are lucky enough to get away with rabbit ears for receiving 7 and 9).

Ahh... that makes sense. I didn't realize 7 was VHF. I always forget that number doesn't correlate to frequency. I'll have to add VHF capability to this antenna. The funny thing is I actually tilted the bottom outward a little to focus upward more and went from mid/upper 80's to 98 on 4-1. So it's doing it's job just fine but I was trying to get it to do something that it couldn't. Thanks for the heads up.

After the new info was brought to my attention I added a simple and inexpensive Bipole VHF DTV antenna to my homemade UHF antenna. Drilled a hole in the top of the board to stick the base in and then fed the cable to the two screws where the transformer was already mounted. I was then able to scan in VHF channels to verify that it worked at which point I finally moved it up to the attic where I had originally planned to located it. With the entire board faced slightly upward and the Bipole antenna fully extended to almost the peak of the roof line I get the following receptions:

2-1 KWGN 88%
4-1 KCNC 80%
5-1 KGWN 91%
6-1 KRMA 98%
7-1 KMGH 98%
9-2 KUSA 83%
20-1 KTVD 100%
22-1 KDVR 100%
27-1 KLWY 85%
31-1 KDVR 85%

We live about 60 miles as the bird flies up against the foothills NW of Loveland. Our previous house had a Yagi that cost about $100 mounted on the roof of the house plus we were SW of Fort Collins about the same distance but closer to I25 and I never got reception this good.

These are the channels that I watch so these are the ones I kept so I have no idea what the other OTA channels get but I'm more than happy with the performance of my $15 antenna. The VHF antenna was about $10 and the transformer was $5 and the board, coat hangers and screws were all parts I had in the garage.

Here's another picture of the antenna after the Bipole was added... sorry for the blurry pic but I took it with my camera phone just before moving it to the attic:

http://coracing.net/gallery/d/12791-1/IMG00582-20091109-1427.jpg

We live about 60 miles as the bird flies up against the foothills NW of Loveland. Our previous house had a Yagi that cost about $100 mounted on the roof of the house plus we were SW of Fort Collins about the same distance but closer to I25 and I never got reception this good.



Looks good. Did you move after or before the digital transition? i.e. are you comparing analog reception on your former Yagi with this new antenna (which is receiving digital stations) or were you trying to receive digital stations with your Yagi at your former home?

Looks good. Did you move after or before the digital transition? i.e. are you comparing analog reception on your former Yagi with this new antenna (which is receiving digital stations) or were you trying to receive digital stations with your Yagi at your former home?

Not a very good comparison because I haven't tested the yagi at this location nor have I tested this antenna at that location not to mention I never used that yagi on digital. All I know is this works well. :D

This prompted me to talk to the station engineer. It turns out that they did set the hidden flag intentionally. They are providing K2 programming on 27.2 so that it can be fed to some local cable companies. Eventually they plan to either encrypt it or find another distribution method (e.g. direct feed). So, for those who are able to get 27.2, enjoy it while it lasts, although, if I had to guess, it will probably be around for a while.

Well they found a better way to hide it the K2 programming. Actually, I'm just assuming it is there, because although I'm pretty sure I could extract it, I haven't gone through the trouble of doing so just to verify that the programming is still there.

What they did was remove the PMT (and the PAT information that pointed to that PMT) and the TVCT entries for the K2 programming, i.e. the only thing left is the raw video and audio streams, with no PSI or PSIP data to point to it. So no tuner will be able to pick this up anymore. I'm assuming it is still there since there are two pids of unknown usage, one with a bandwidth of 3 Mbps (about the minimum for an SD video stream) and another that looks like the audio stream. So it looks like they found a way of delivering the programming to whichever Cheyenne cable company wanted it (with the right equipment of course), but not allow OTA viewers to see it.

Not the first time I've seen a station do that. I know it can be extracted as long as it's not encrypted, but I don't think any boxes will do it.

- Trip

Cross-posted from the Denver forum...

I was getting at least passable reception from KRMA-DT for months, but now it appears to have gone into the dumpster for me here north of Fort Collins. From my bizarre location, sometimes RF18 (from Mount Morrison) is stronger, but at other times, RF47 (the translator on Horsetooth Mountain southwest of Fort Collins) is better. Right now, neither of them is providing reliable reception.

Is anyone else having trouble?


Jim McCauley

Cross-posted from the Denver forum...

I was getting at least passable reception from KRMA-DT for months, but now it appears to have gone into the dumpster for me here north of Fort Collins. From my bizarre location, sometimes RF18 (from Mount Morrison) is stronger, but at other times, RF47 (the translator on Horsetooth Mountain southwest of Fort Collins) is better. Right now, neither of them is providing reliable reception.

Is anyone else having trouble?


Jim McCauley

I haven't seen any degradation in the signal from either RF18 or RF47.

I've recently been investigating ditching DISH for OTA HD and possibly some kind of Mac Mini HTPC. First step, though, is getting my OTA reception squared away... As long as we can get NBC (KUSA?), ABC (KMGH?), CBS, FOX, CW, and maybe a PBS I think we're in good shape.

I'm in northwest Loveland - north of 43rd, west of Wilson. I have a pretty clear shot to the south and am thinking of an attic mount antenna, though I'm not opposed to going outside if needed.

I'm contemplating antenna needs and I want to make sure I'm understanding a few things... I'm looking at the DB2 or DB4 - possibly with some kind of amplifier, but I keep running into a couple of questions...

First, a lot of what we watch is KUSA (channel 9). Now, I've seen some sites where it says that KUSA broadcasts on "real" channel 16 and "virtual" channel 9. If this is the case, then a UHF antenna is what I need in order to get all the major networks.

But then other sites make no mention of the channel 16 thing which leads me to believe that I need an antenna capable of VHF and UHF.

My brother who lives in Charlotte, NC, suggested I look at the Winegard amplified VHF/UHF antenna which looks like something I'd see on an RV...

I guess I'm looking for clarification from some who have been there on which channel KUSA is on, as well as any special considerations for our area in terms of pitfalls or other things you wish you'd known in advance.

Thanks a bunch!

-- Scott

KUSA was on 16 before June 12 and is now on 9.

- Trip

KUSA was on 16 before June 12 and is now on 9.

- Trip

Thanks, Trip.

Looks like I'll need a V/U antenna, probably with a pre-amp of some kind.

Any suggestions or ideas?

First step, though, is getting my OTA reception squared away... As long as we can get NBC (KUSA?), ABC (KMGH?), CBS, FOX, CW, and maybe a PBS I think we're in good shape.

I'm north of you in Fort Collins, and I'm getting pretty much everything with very good reliability. I have a Channel Master CM-4228 on the roof with a Channel Master 7778 preamp feeding two receivers. I get all of the networks and independants plus KRMA and KBDI for PBS. The 4228 is perhaps not as hot on VHF RF 7 & 9 (KMGH and KUSA) as I'd like, but I only notice drops on KUSA at times. I think you're far enough north to put a serious antenna outside and to deploy a preamp, but you could experiment with less if you can return pieces that don't work out. If I was doing it over, I'd perhaps look at a Yagi that could serve VHF-HI (channels 7-13) and UHF with good gain - that could get better results on KMGH/KUSA/KBDI. I don't use a rotor, but I just point my antenna towards Lookout Mountain. I could recommend a great installer if you're in need of one, send me private mail if you're interested.

Rob T

Thanks, Trip.

Looks like I'll need a V/U antenna, probably with a pre-amp of some kind.

Any suggestions or ideas?

A good preamp is required if you are going to install an antenna in your attic or outside, due to the distance that you will have to run cable to your TV. I would highly recommend the CM 7777 or CM 7778. The CM 7778 has less gain, but is more than adequate if you are only feeding one or two TV's. Don't buy a cheap preamp. That can make things worse rather than better.

I live in Southwest Fort Collins, in the Taft Canyon subdivision, which is just about directly north of you. One question is whether you are in that subdivision just north and west of 43rd and Wilson, or if you are up in the foothills. I ran a TV Fool (www.tvfool.com) report for that subdivision, and your reception looks just about the same as mine, if not better.

If you are going to install an antenna in the attic I would go with the biggest VHF-HI/UHF combo Yagi you can afford and fit in your attic. Attic installations are a lot easier, since you don't really need much (if any) mounting hardware (you can just suspend the antenna with cord/rope), and you don't need to ground the antenna. However, an attic installation introduces a lot of variables, depending on attic orientation, roofing materials, etc. When figuring what size antenna will fit in the attic, don't forget to take orientation into account, i.e. you need to point the antenna in the direction of Lookout Mountain. Also, if you have multiple attics (split level house, garage attic, etc.) try to use the highest attic you have, even if getting the cable to your TV will be more difficult. Given the TV Fool report for that subdivision (if you live there), it is quite possible that an indoor installation may be all you need. I know people in Fort Collins who are getting good reception with attic antennas (rather large ones, like the Winegard HD7697P). That wasn't even an option for me, since I have a metal roof.

An outdoor installation requires good mounting hardware (if you've lived here for any amount of time, you know how hard the wind blows, especially up near the foothills), and good grounding. You may have to install a ground rod.

But an outdoor installation will definitely give you the best chance of good reception. If you're not confident in your ability to do a safe installation then there are companies who can do it for you. I know there was one installer down in Denver (don't know if they'll come up to Loveland or not) that kept a set of "demo" antennas of each antenna that they sold, and would try an assortment of them during installation, to determine which was best for your particular location/requirements. But just about any decent antenna is going to work in your location on the roof. You don't need a monster antenna, regardless of what any guide or salesman might recommend according to your distance. Going too big just means a greater chance of it coming down or losing pieces in the 60-80 mph wind gusts we regularly get here along the foothills. You probably don't need to go any larger than a Winegard HD7695P, and a HD7694P will probably work just fine.

Another option is to install a UHF antenna and a high VHF only antenna and combine them. That is what I have done (I've got a CM 4228 combined with an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13). Or you could just install the Y5-7-13. That might seem crazy, since it is designed for VHF-Hi reception only (Channels 7-13), but it has very good omnidirectional UHF reception at my location (better than my CM 4228 for stations that are off axis -- KLWY and KGWN in Cheyenne and KPXC and KPJR east of I-25 for example), and it's only 5 foot long. It gets good reception of the on axis stations also, just not quite as good as the CM 4228 (but still good enough for an error free lock). I have no idea how it would work in your location for UHF, but I can't help mentioning it. Oh, and it only costs $23.

Thanks, rthurlow and jsmar! This is exactly what I needed to move forward.

One question is whether you are in that subdivision just north and west of 43rd and Wilson, or if you are up in the foothills.

I am in the new-ish subdivision north of 43rd and west of Wilson. We're kind of up on an east-facing slope. From my front porch I can look between the homes across the street and see way out to interstate and beyond. It's not a noticeable hill when you're on Wilson, but it's there.

My garage is on the south side of the house and there is an unfinished "attic" space above which is where I think I'll install the antenna.

A picture would be better, so here:

http://img.skitch.com/20100202-k1b3g9qagigejx6nf8cqf86phb.preview.jpg (http://skitch.com/selias22/nuek9/house)
Click for full size (http://skitch.com/selias22/nuek9/house) - Uploaded with plasq (http://plasq.com)'s Skitch (http://skitch.com)

As luck would have it, I'm kind of on a bend in the road which gives me a more direct shot straight to the south and "past" the two-story house to the south. I think I need to be pointed at about 179 degrees according to AntennaWeb.

In the attic above the garage is my first choice. If I have to go outside, I can mount it at the peak of the gable on the south-facing wall of the garage:

http://img.skitch.com/20100202-dcq5bhwn31iyhtf2gyrjyf4nbb.preview.jpg (http://skitch.com/selias22/nuecy/southside)
Click for full size (http://skitch.com/selias22/nuecy/southside) - Uploaded with plasq (http://plasq.com)'s Skitch (http://skitch.com)

This wouldn't be bad because the area behind that wall is open so there wouldn't be any crawling around or fishing cables in an "attic."

The second possibility (the "or here" spot) would be set back more from the street and a few feet higher, but there's more chance that the direct LOS to the south is blocked by that 2-story house.

As you can see, I've been giving this a lot of thought...

]

This wouldn't be bad because the area behind that wall is open so there wouldn't be any crawling around or fishing cables in an "attic."

The second possibility (the "or here" spot) would be set back more from the street and a few feet higher, but there's more chance that the direct LOS to the south is blocked by that 2-story house.

As you can see, I've been giving this a lot of thought...

With an indoor installation you don't have to have a lot invested in the installation. So, try the easier spot first, and see what you get. If the reception isn't good enough you could always try the higher spot and see if it improves or not.

I'm located in north Cheyenne and use the CM 7777 preamp combined with an Winegard YA1713 (for hi VHF Ch 7-13) and Antennas Direct 91XG (for UHF) mounted on my roof and pick up all the major Denver channels really well (except for KUSA and KMGH which lock in about 1/2 the time). Are any of you familiar with the new Antennas Direct C5 as a possible replacement for the Winegard YA1713 for long range hi VHF reception?

KCDO has finished their new tower southwest of Fort Morgan. Has anyone had any luck receiving it?

See the following article for more info.
http://www.fortmorgantimes.com/ci_14237987

KCDO has finished their new tower southwest of Fort Morgan. Has anyone had any luck receiving it?

See the following article for more info.
http://www.fortmorgantimes.com/ci_14237987

I've been able to receive it for about 2 - 3 weeks.
The tower would be about 15 degrees south of east from my location which says I'm picking it up at about 80 degrees off the side of my Winegard UHF YAGI antenna or I'm getting it via reflection. I do get a few breakups. Signal strength seems to be about the same as KDVR (Fox 31).

Hello,

I follow the thread here on AVS closely and have learned a great deal here. I live in Northwest Fort Collins near Laporte and Shields. I have a Channel Master CM3018 UHF/VHF/FM TV Antenna roof mounted on a mast 15' in the air. I am using a Channel Master model 7777 amp. I used to receive channel 4.1 without any problems. Now it does not come in at all. This started sometime last year I believe. I receive the following channels without any issues.

2.1
2.3 ???
5.1
5.2
6.1
6.2
6.3
6.4
6.5 ???
7.1
7.2
9.1
9.2
9.3
12.1
12.2
12.3
14.1
20.1
22.1
25.1
27.1
27.2
31.1
33.1
33.2
38.1 - 38.5
59.1 - 59.4

Does anyone have any information concerning the disappearance of 4.1? I have been using 5.1 out of Wyoming for nighttime network coverage, but would like to get Denver news on 4.1. Any help in this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Jack

Does anyone have any information concerning the disappearance of 4.1? I have been using 5.1 out of Wyoming for nighttime network coverage, but would like to get Denver news on 4.1. Any help in this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

I get 4-1 still. It's hit or miss and some days not enough to come in and on those days I generally use 5-1. It does however come in pretty regularly and I just checked and right now it's locked for me. I live south of you about 15min or so in NW Loveland if that helps.

Thanks for the feed back Jer! My neighbor has the same setup as me and he is getting it strong and clear. I am beginning to suspect a sub-standard tuner. My media PC with a hauppauge 1600 tunner is hit and miss but it does at least lock it occasionally. My neighbors antenna is about 6 foot higher. Would that make a difference? Thanks again Jer.

Jack

Lots of things can make a difference so it's hard to say. May want to try a different antenna too just to see. Maybe swap equipment with him one at a time to see if you can narrow it down.

I found a broken element on the upper part of the UHF antenna. Don't know if this is the cause, but it was enough to make me order a slightly larger antenna. I have a CM-3020 on the way. This should hopefully put me in range. Thanks for your help.

Jack

Does anyone have any information concerning the disappearance of 4.1?


It's definitely throwing dramatically less signal up our way lately - my Letterman
recordings are usually worthless now, in particular.

Does anyone have any information concerning the disappearance of 4.1?
Jack

Shields and LaPorte Ave should give you a Line-of-Sight look at the LOM tower from what I can see on the Delorme topo software. Profile attached - Lake Cedar Tower is at the right end of pic and actually some 700 feet higher than the ground level shown on the profile.

Channel 4.1 is my 2nd strongest signal behind Channel 2.1 and I have a 1300 foot ridge south of Horsetooth Reservoir in my LOS. However, I do have a high gain Yagi UHF antenna.

Is there some interfering object between you and the tower on LOM?

Well I installed the new Channel Master 3020 checked all my connections, Made sure the 7777 pre amp was switched correctly and re-aimed the antenna according to tvfool.com. the peak of my house is aligned north and south, so I am aimed 3 degrees west of due south. Bingo! there was channel 4. That lasted for a week and it disappeared again. I just don't get it. Everything else comes in strong and clear. Is it possible that I am not high enough in the air? I am currently at about 16 feet. There are a few very small tree branches a block away that may be in line with the tower. Not going to give up. Every thing else that I get is just fantastic quality. Thanks for your research jamjar. I appreciate it.

Jack

Is it possible that I am not high enough in the air? I am currently at about 16 feet. There are a few very small tree branches a block away that may be in line with the tower. Not going to give up. Every thing else that I get is just fantastic quality. Thanks for your research jamjar. I appreciate it.

Jack

Glad to help if I can.
16 feet above your roof (~30' above ground level) seems like it should be plenty high given the fact that you appear to have LOS from ground level. I doubt the branches are the problem especially during the winter when there were no leaves. I was thinking more along the line of an apartment building partially blocking your signal or other large building slightly off axis reflecting a secondary signal that might interfere (multi-path).

Try moving your antenna a few degrees East or West of the TVFool alignment.
I get my best reception aimed a few degrees East of the actual azimuth to LOM.

I had problems with 4.1 when they first went on the air from the Lake Cedar Tower on LOM.
I determined that the pre-amp I had was overpowering 4.1 on our primary TV while a second TV with another 25' of RG-59 coax feeding it did not have the same problem. I had RG-6 coax from the antenna to the splitter and to the primary TV. I inserted a 6 dB attenuator on the primary TV that temporarily solved the problem until I changed the pre-amp to my present CM7777.

There are some pretty strong FM signals in the area, so you might want to try switching the FM trap in the CM-7777 on if it isn't already set that way.

Hi all - complete newbie here - we live in Johnstown Colorado and I want to set up an OTA digital antenna/amp for the very first time. I plan on putting the antenna in my attic. Any and all suggestions on hardware/setup would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to post or email me with your thoughts/suggestions.

Thanks Folks!

Cheyenne FOX-27.1 is now broadcasting KTWO-ABC from Casper on 27.2. Thought this may be of interest to some of you in Colorado. Is it just me or has KUSA's signal gotten worse (not sure if that's possible!) during the last few weeks??

Anyone near Cheyenne seeing K36JO-D on the air on channel 36? It should map to 8-1 and repeat the signal of KWYP in Laramie.

- Trip

Topic titled edited.
Topic added to US Thread Index topic.

Topic titled edited.
Topic added to US Thread Index topic.

This forum has normally been about Northern Colorado as well, and we've lost that from the title.

Anyone near Cheyenne seeing K36JO-D on the air on channel 36? It should map to 8-1 and repeat the signal of KWYP in Laramie.

- Trip

Yes, DTV 36 has been in use in Cheyenne since about halfway through the summer. If Cheyenne viewers have a strong enough antenna, they'll receive two pairs of virtual 8's (8.1,8.5), one from the Pilot Hill Laramie XMTR and the other from the Cheyenne repeater which I believe is on the same tower as KCHY/13 and KYOY FM in the northeast corner of the city.

Cheyenne FOX-27.1 is now broadcasting KTWO-ABC from Casper on 27.2. Thought this may be of interest to some of you in Colorado. Is it just me or has KUSA's signal gotten worse (not sure if that's possible!) during the last few weeks??

On a related note, when ABC resumed from KTWO on digital 27.2, the previous ABC outlet in Cheyenne, KDEV (analogue) 40 flipped to My Network.
In addition KDEV now carries a 9PM newscast from the ones that do the NoCo5 shows in Ft Collins.

This forum has normally been about Northern Colorado as well, and we've lost that from the title.
I'd also vote for restoring "Northern Colorado" to the old topic title. I sent a PM to Ken H requesting the original title be restored. If you agree I'd suggest sending sending him a PM as well.

Re: topic title.

Most local area topics are titled after the Nielsen DMA, but after looking at the map, Fort Collins looks closer to Cheyenne than Scottsbluff, so what the heck.

Most local area topics are titled after the Nielsen DMA, but after looking at the map, Fort Collins looks closer to Cheyenne than Scottsbluff, so what the heck.

Thanks, Ken! NoCo is mostly in the Denver DMA, but we're grade B for the serious Cheyenne stations too, so there's a lot of interest.

Rob T

Anyone have a suggestion who to contact with NBC corporate or the FCC regarding the lack of a dependable OTA signal for NBC in Cheyenne. I have contacted KUSA and KCWY several times without a satisfactory answer. All of the other networks have a real digital solid OTA signal in Cheyenne (from both Casper and Denver I might add) except for NBC. KUSA's signal is pixalated and drops out about 60% of the time and KCWY has an analog translator that is very weak with a snowy picture. NBC is not providing adequate OTA coverage from either Casper or Denver for the Cheyenne DMA.

Anyone have a suggestion who to contact with NBC corporate or the FCC regarding the lack of a dependable OTA signal for NBC in Cheyenne. I have contacted KUSA and KCWY several times without a satisfactory answer. All of the other networks have a real digital solid OTA signal in Cheyenne (from both Casper and Denver I might add) except for NBC. KUSA's signal is pixalated and drops out about 60% of the time and KCWY has an analog translator that is very weak with a snowy picture. NBC is not providing adequate OTA coverage from either Casper or Denver for the Cheyenne DMA.

I understand the FCC is working on a shutoff date for analogue translators, at which time KCHY/Bozeman Trail/Sunbelt/etcetera will need to "flashflip" channel 13 to digital in order to continue serving Cheyenne. Perhaps the company can be persuaded to "piggyback" NBC onto another digital channel's subcarrier like ABC is doing on 27.2 until that can happen? There's this site at http://laredean.com/ that insists all Casper commercial TV stations are in some way connected, so maybe anything is possible?

I live in SW Fort Collins near Drake and Yorkshire. We recently purchased an HDTV and decided to drop DirecTV and installed an antenna in our attic. We get every station consistently with great reception except for 12.1 through 12.3.

We are on the fringe as some days we get the channels with great reception and then it will not register a signal for a week or so. I have been in contact with CPT12 and they feel I should be getting it consistently.

Here is what I have installed:

Antenna: Radio Shack HBU33 HDTV
Range: 70 miles VHF
+60 miles UHF

Amplifier: Radio Shack High-Gain Signal Amplifier
Freq: 54-806 MHz
Noise Figure: 3.5 db typical
Gain: 33 db (VHF or UHF)
Gain control: up to 10 db

Location of Antenna: In Attic
N 40.54
W 105.
Elevation of Ant: 5106' (approximately 30' above street level)

Any suggestions?

I live in SW Fort Collins near Drake and Yorkshire. We recently purchased an HDTV and decided to drop DirecTV and installed an antenna in our attic. We get every station consistently with great reception except for 12.1 through 12.3.

We are on the fringe as some days we get the channels with great reception and then it will not register a signal for a week or so. I have been in contact with CPT12 and they feel I should be getting it consistently.

Here is what I have installed:

Antenna: Radio Shack HBU33 HDTV
Range: 70 miles VHF
+60 miles UHF

Amplifier: Radio Shack High-Gain Signal Amplifier
Freq: 54-806 MHz
Noise Figure: 3.5 db typical
Gain: 33 db (VHF or UHF)
Gain control: up to 10 db

Location of Antenna: In Attic
N 40.54
W 105.
Elevation of Ant: 5106' (approximately 30' above street level)

Any suggestions?

How much freedom do you have to rotate the antenna and the elevation angle?

I live in SW Fort Collins near Drake and Yorkshire. We recently purchased an HDTV and decided to drop DirecTV and installed an antenna in our attic. We get every station consistently with great reception except for 12.1 through 12.3.

We are on the fringe as some days we get the channels with great reception and then it will not register a signal for a week or so. I have been in contact with CPT12 and they feel I should be getting it consistently.

Here is what I have installed:

Antenna: Radio Shack HBU33 HDTV
Range: 70 miles VHF
+60 miles UHF

Amplifier: Radio Shack High-Gain Signal Amplifier
Freq: 54-806 MHz
Noise Figure: 3.5 db typical
Gain: 33 db (VHF or UHF)
Gain control: up to 10 db

Location of Antenna: In Attic
N 40.54
W 105.
Elevation of Ant: 5106' (approximately 30' above street level)

Any suggestions?

I know others in that area, and you are starting to get too close to the foothills, such that you lose line of site to KBDI's transmitter. I live near Taft Hill Rd. and Harmony Rd. (just a little south and a tiny bit east of you) and I get "1 edge" reception of KBDI (according to www.tvfool.com) whereas you most likely get "2 edge" reception.

I get KBDI reliably with a 5 foot high VHF antenna. However, it is mounted outside on my roof. A reasonably large indoor antenna like you have should be good for almost all the denver stations, but KBDI's transmitter is set further back into the mountains.

Anyway, you can improve things, but it may be impossible to get KBDI reliably all the time from your location. Some suggestions, in order of approximate expense and difficulty:

1) Remove any splitters and remove the antenna preamp. It's possible that your HDTV may have a better noise figure than the preamp. Whether this will help or hurt may depend on how long of a cable run you have from the antenna (and the quality of that cable) and how many ways you split the signal.

2) Get a better antenna preamp. The Channel Master 7777 and 7778 are considered to be about the best preamps on the market (other than esoteric small company specialty versions that cost a lot more in general). They have a noise figure around 2db. If you are on the edge of receiving KBDI then this will improve things. Most likely not enough to get KBDI reliably all the time, but more often than you get it now. Note that preamp gain is not the important issue here unless you have a lot of splitters.

3) Get an even bigger antenna to install indoors, i.e. install the biggest antenna you can fit in your attic. Winegard makes a line of antennas that fit the bill, starting with the HD7694P up to the HD7698P. Ignore the advertising regarding reception distances. AntennaCraft/Radio Shack are just a little more enthusiastic about their claims. Your HBU33 falls roughly between the HD7694P and the HD7695P in terms of elements and size.

4) Install an antenna outdoors. This is likely to give you the best reception. The bigger the better, but you have to trade off the expense of a sturdy mount vs. the size of the antenna. As you are well aware, we get some wicked wind storms here, which get worse as you approach the foothills. If you put a monster antenna on the roof the wind may either tear it down or slowly take it apart (which is why I would recommend Winegard over AntennaCraft if you are installing a big antenna outdoors). You also have to deal with properly grounding the antenna, which makes an outdoor install a lot more trouble than an indoor install. Since you already have the HBU33 installing that antenna outdoors may be the first option to try.

For comparison purposes, I have a Channel Master 4228 bow tie antenna (UHF antenna) mounted on the front of my chimney, combined with an AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 (high VHF only antenna) mounted on a mast attached to the same chimney (the mast extends above the chimney).

Note that the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 is only a 5 foot antenna, and I get KBDI reliably. However, according to TVFool the signal strength for KBDI is almost 20db higher where I live (only 2 miles south of you), so a Y5-7-13 will probably not work for you. Winegard makes a larger (YA 1713) high VHF only antenna. You could consider installing that outdoors and combining it with your indoor antenna for UHF reception (the Channel Master preamps have the option of separate inputs for UHF and VHF). One advantage of a high VHF only antenna is that it has significantly less wind resistance and will be lighter than a correspondingly sized UHF/VHF antenna. But with the right mount properly installed you can go ahead and install something huge if you want.

Note that you probably can't find some of the equipment mentioned above locally. I've had good luck ordering equipment online from both www.solidsignal.com and www.warrenelectronics.com.

One final note: You may live in a neighborhood that has covenants that say you can't install an outdoor antenna (my neighborhood has such covenants). You should be aware that the FCC OTARD (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html) rule trumps any covenants regarding this. That doesn't mean you should go out of your way to upset your neighbors, which is why I tried to go with the most unobtrusive combination (the 4228 would be ugly mounted on a mast, but since it is mounted in front of a chimney it is less obvious).

Since I posted my original description, we have gone up into the Attic and have readjusted the antenna. What we found was the digital compass we originally used was off a few degrees and when I used the trusty Boy Scott compass I was able to get a better line to 12. This has helped considerably. However, 12 is still flaky.

We also disconnected the amp and splitters and direct connected to only one TV. What we found was 12 had no signal until we adjusted the antennas's position and added the amp back in. We also added a surge protector to the amp and main TV. This has helped with noise from household appliances that may have been adding noise via the amp.

What is strange is 12 is stronger in the day time than at night. On Saturday I had all three channels strong. So I rescanned the one TV (which should be my weakest signal). It has an APEX converter box. It scanned 12.1, 12.2 and 12.3 at 100% signal. Yet that night I could not pick them up.

I did try the Radio Shack 100 mile range antenna as well but it was a tighter fit and did not make any significant difference in reception that the current antenna.

My covenants do not allow for an outside antenna but since I get every other channel with great reception I am not incline to pursue that option anyway.

So that leaves me with maybe a more powerful amp option.

FYI - I have talked with the technical people at 12 and they believe they have good reception up here in FC. I know I have a couple other neighbors on the block with antennas and cannot get 12 either.

Since I posted my original description, we have gone up into the Attic and have readjusted the antenna. What we found was the digital compass we originally used was off a few degrees and when I used the trusty Boy Scott compass I was able to get a better line to 12. This has helped considerably. However, 12 is still flaky.

We also disconnected the amp and splitters and direct connected to only one TV. What we found was 12 had no signal until we adjusted the antennas's position and added the amp back in. We also added a surge protector to the amp and main TV. This has helped with noise from household appliances that may have been adding noise via the amp.

What is strange is 12 is stronger in the day time than at night. On Saturday I had all three channels strong. So I rescanned the one TV (which should be my weakest signal). It has an APEX converter box. It scanned 12.1, 12.2 and 12.3 at 100% signal. Yet that night I could not pick them up.

I did try the Radio Shack 100 mile range antenna as well but it was a tighter fit and did not make any significant difference in reception that the current antenna.

My covenants do not allow for an outside antenna but since I get every other channel with great reception I am not incline to pursue that option anyway.

So that leaves me with maybe a more powerful amp option.

FYI - I have talked with the technical people at 12 and they believe they have good reception up here in FC. I know I have a couple other neighbors on the block with antennas and cannot get 12 either.

Covenants can not stop you putting up an antenna outside. Little known is the same law that was passed by congress that allows sat dishes also allows OTA antennas. Here is the law:http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

I know that you probably don't want to deal with your HOA but I would show them the rule first. I was the first in my HOA to put up a Directv dish. They gave me a modified drawing where they wanted me to put it in the ground with ground cover - I ignored them and mounted it on my house - now everyone had done the same :) I also became board vp and pointed out to the members how we can not stop anyone putting up antennas even though the rules are there in writing (congress has overruled all state, county, city, and HOA)

Hope this helps

Dish channel 34 is now carrying the ABC affiliate.

For a while now KTWO has been available OTA via an SD subchannel on KLWY. Yesterday they started broadcasting on their own low power station in Cheyenne (K16JM-LD), which contains both an HD subchannel and an SD subchannel. So ABC programming is now available OTA in HD in Cheyenne. A rescan should pick them up (they are broadcasting on RF channel 16, and the display channels are 16.1 and 16.2).

I only get this channel error free for short periods of time here in Fort Collins, but my antennas are pointed at Lookout Mountain.

I expect that KLWY will be dropping the KTWO subchannel in the near future.

FWIW, "Optimum" cable (formerly Bresnan) replaced KMGH programming on Cheyenne's cable channel 7 ABC slot with that of KTWO.
http://www.wyomingnews.com/articles/2011/05/04/news/19local_05-04-11.txt#blogcomments

Just noticed KGWN added subchannel 5.3 with CW programming and NOCO5 programming on 5.2 is now 720p.