With KLWY-DT (Fox from Cheyenne) scheduled to go live tomorrow, it's time for a Northern Colorado DTV thread...

According to antennaweb.org, here's the status of Cheyenne-based DTV:

KLWY-DT (Fox on 28) is scheduled to go live on Dec 11 2002
KKTU-DT (NBC on 11) is scheduled to go live on Dec 15 2002
KGWN-DT (CBS on 30) is scheduled to go live on Dec 31 2002

I've sent email to each of the above stations asking for an update. So far, only the GM of KGWN has responded:
Thanks for your note. Yes the plan is to be digital by 12/31/02. I
would guess we will be slightly behind schedule, and should be fully HDTV for mid to late January.
I'll post the other responses if and when I get them...
- digiphotonerd

On 10/18 I received an email from KKTU (NBC) and they said that they would be up in about six months. So that would put them on in mid April.

On 11/27 Joan Turner at KGWN emailed me that they were still hoping for mid to late December. When was your email from KGWN?

I don't know anything about the Fox up there.

If anyone sees anything , let us all know here! I can't wait - Denver TV is about to lose my viewing.

Originally posted by mknoebel
On 11/27 Joan Turner at KGWN emailed me that they were still hoping for mid to late December. When was your email from KGWN?
Yesterday (12/10/02).

I don't know if it is possible, but you might want to change the name of the thread to Northern Colo./Southeast WY DTV or something like that, since it is mostly the Cheyenne stations that seem to be of interest here. We might attract more participation from Cheyenne residents and maybe even from the Cheyenne stations that way.

Sorry to hear that KGWN has fallen behind schedule.

Mark

I guess I'll have to ask for an antenna rotator for Christmas! Or just wait for the wind to blow; seems like every other week my 8-bay bowtie ends up pointing at Greeley.

I hope you guys will still post notices in the Denver thread too. I would like to give the Cheyenne stations a shot with my UHF antenna when they go hot just to see if I can get them as a substitute for the Denver fiasco. I know I used to get the analog Cheyenne stations years ago from Boulder in a house just about a mile from where I am now. Haven't tried lately.

Great Idea on the thread.

Reggie

Hey fellow Northern Coloradoans -

How strong does 32-1 come in for you? My Zenith C32V23 is able to receive it with a simple $2 RS bowtie loop, from the middle of a ground floor apartment in North Loveland. However, I wasn't able to receive it at all with a WinTV-D connected to a Winegard UHF yagi.

I'm trying to determine how much to attribute to the station being really strong, vs the Zenith's new 8vsb chip being really good, vs the WinTV-D being really bad...

- digiphotonerd

P.S. Has anyone tried 28-1 today? I'm anxious to see if it's online...

Originally posted by digiphotonerd
P.S. Has anyone tried 28-1 today? I'm anxious to see if it's online...

I tried it tonight--nothing.

However, I am getting a bit of activity on the signal strength meter on Channel 11, but no lock. I wonder if KKTU is doing some testing. If so, I hope it is at lower than their final power. The meter just bounced around--usually at 0, with some bursts into the 50s.

I'm worried about interference in some of these cases. Channel 12 has a translator on Channel 11 somewhere in the Boulder area. According to KBDI's site, that is the channel we should tune to in northern areas (see http://www.kbdi.org/about/coverage.asp ), although I don't know why, since channel 11 only gives a very weak fuzzy picture, while channel 12 looks great. But I am worried about channel 11 causing problems with KKTU-DT.

Anyone else able to get anything on channel 11?

Mark

I'm trying to determine how much to attribute to the station being really strong, vs the Zenith's new 8vsb chip being really good, vs the WinTV-D being really bad...

Very interesting...I'm running a WinTV-HD receiver here and I'd be interested to see the difference you get between the two receivers. I get channel 32 with no difficulty; basically a piece of wire will work. Even on the small yagi that I can rotate, I cannot find a spot where it will not lock up perfect.

I've noticed that the software (WinTV2000) has a problem with displaying the signal strength, so I cannot give an actual number. (It displays 22.4dB all the time)

It seems to pick up the other (ch18) DTV channels pretty good, and the analogs appear fine, so I can't explain your Win cards problem.


Channel 12 has a translator on Channel 11 somewhere in the Boulder area.

This is also news to me...It must be fairly low powered as the only signal I can get on 11 is the station out on Colorado Springs. Nothing (analog) else is on 11 at this time at my location...

Thanks for the new thread...

Ken

Originally posted by mbuchana
However, I am getting a bit of activity on the signal strength meter on Channel 11, but no lock. I wonder if KKTU is doing some testing. If so, I hope it is at lower than their final power.
I got a reply from the chief engineer at KKTU this morning:
Actually we are currently broadcasting a DTV signal in Cheyenne. It is rather low power and we are on a temporary antenna that puts most of the power over Cheyenne. It is channel 11. It is currently just standard definition, but it is a very high quality signal because we feed it with a digital uplink.

Good luck and let me know if you can receive it.

...and here's the message I sent back:
Thanks for the reply. Any idea when you'll be broadcasting at a higher ERP and/or from the permanent antenna? There are a lot of folks in Northern Colorado that have given up on Denver and are anxious to start watching the Wyoming stations for their DTV...
- digiphotonerd

Looks like it's time to twist the antenna and see if I can find it!!

Originally posted by KC0COU
Very interesting...I'm running a WinTV-HD receiver here and I'd be interested to see the difference you get between the two receivers. I get channel 32 with no difficulty; basically a piece of wire will work. Even on the small yagi that I can rotate, I cannot find a spot where it will not lock up perfect.
Hmmm -- I guess my experience is either due to the WinTV-D's tuner being really bad, or "user error" with the way I've configured the WinTV2000 software. I can get both "lock" boxes to turn green, but the output window stays solid blue. Any ideas?

Once the Cheyenne stations are up, maybe we should set up a "tunefest" where we take our various receivers to someone's house, and see how well they tune the various stations using an identical antenna feed. It'd be nice to have some solid data when making recommendations to friends...

- digiphotonerd

My question to the chief engineer at KKTU:
Any idea when you'll be broadcasting at a higher ERP and/or from the permanent antenna?
His reply:
No, I really don't have any idea when it might get better.

NOT a good sign ... :(

I tried to get channel 11 in last night by rotating my antenna, but I wasn't able to pull it in at all. I didn't see anything at 28 either.

Anyone else have any luck?

From the engineer's comments at KKTU, it sounds like that one is pretty much a lost cause for Northern Colorado viewers. Maybe we can get some more info from the GM or something.

I think the FCC won't protect them from "interference" to their digital signal unless they are full power by the end of 2004, which is a long way away. So, if they are on with a temporary low-power setup now, there is probably little incentive for them to do anything else until that timeframe, assuming their primary interest is not to spend the $ until they have to.

KKTU was one of the channels whose extension to complete construction was denied by the FCC. See http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/files/dendtvextreq.pdf and search for "KKTU". I notice they have been granted a Special Temporary Authority as of 12/03/02, which expires 6/03/03, but we are pretty much in the dark as to what their plans are beyond that.

Mark

Is anyone up North receiving channel 29? This is KDEN-DT in Longmont/Fredrick which is a 'shop-at-home' channel. They're ID'ing both 25 and 29 on their analog channel 25.

I'm getting partial lock at this time, lots of frame errors, but no picture yet...I'm guessing it's another micro-power / temp antenna situation. I'll check this in the morning.

It may not be HD, but I'd like to see something other then 32.

Ken

On another note, I talked to an amateur radio fellow in Cheyenne tonight as he tried to receive DTV channel 11.

Interesting results: He was unable to get his receiver to work at all on 11, seems it goes into some kind of lock up every time he attempts to tune channel 11...He says there is a short blip of a strong signal, then it goes nuts. The receiver is a Samsumg SIR-T150. The only way to clear it was to cycle the power. Anyone else have a SIR-T150? The receiver works fine on the UHF channels 18, 32, and 35 out of Denver. (He lives on the ridge next to the channel 27 tower at I-25 and terry ranch)

Anyway, no luck in getting channel 11 in Cheyenne...So hard to tell how the signal is down here.

Ken

Joan Turner at KGWN has now said that is will be January before they are on the air. They are waiting for a crew to install the transmitter at the site. Everything else is set to go.

Still nothing on any Northern Faux stations. I haven't seen anything from the Cheyenne station, and the Ft. Collins (21) won't lock at all. I emailed Peter Bangas pbang353@FOX.COM to tell him that no one here is able to get it, but he has not emailed me back.

And of course nothing out of 11 for me either.

Originally posted by KC0COU
Is anyone up North receiving channel 29? This is KDEN-DT in Longmont/Fredrick which is a 'shop-at-home' channel. They're ID'ing both 25 and 29 on their analog channel 25.

I'm getting partial lock at this time, lots of frame errors, but no picture yet...I'm guessing it's another micro-power / temp antenna situation. I'll check this in the morning.

It may not be HD, but I'd like to see something other then 32.

Ken

I'm not getting anything on 29. Is it digital?

I'm with you, something other than 32 would be a welcome addition. Hopefully in a couple of weeks (KGWN).

I could get the signal strength meter to bounce around on 29, and got a momentary lock, but that's it.

I guess if it is just a home shopping channel, I won't miss this one. But the broadcasters still seem intent on putting out signals that hardly anyone can receive, just to meet the FCC mandate.

Mark

Bumping this up - anyone find anything out of Cheyenne yet??

I received a message from fox that KFCT-DT should be working. It is only 18 miles north of me, but I might need a good roof-mount antenna, probably with a pre-amp, on a rotator to have a shot at getting it. :eek: Then he suggests that I just stick with KDVR-DT.

If it is north of me, that would work out when I aim that direction for the Cheyenne stations, but I can't lock it. Anyone have any luck with it yet? :confused:

Originally posted by mknoebel
I received a message from fox that KFCT-DT should be working. It is only 18 miles north of me, but I might need a good roof-mount antenna, probably with a pre-amp, on a rotator to have a shot at getting it. :eek: Then he suggests that I just stick with KDVR-DT.

If it is north of me, that would work out when I aim that direction for the Cheyenne stations, but I can't lock it. Anyone have any luck with it yet? :confused:
According to 100000 Watts (http://www.100000watts.com/tv/DIA.html), KFCT-DT is putting out a whopping 0.88 kw, which is roughly equivalent to a "Mr. Microphone" :rolleyes: . KFCT claims they can receive the signal from Horsetooth, but rumor has it they're using a VLBA worthy of SETI.

Seriously, though, I can get the signal meter to bounce around on KFCT-DT, but I've never gotten a lock...

I got a message from Fox engineering about KFCT-DT also. I gave him all sorts of info about antenna setup, ghosts on analog 22, etc. I got a reply saying that if I can't get 22 OK, I won't get 21 either since it is "at much lower power".

Today I am able to get a lock on KDEN-DT in Longmont. I do have to rotate my antenna a bit from it's normal position to get it. It comes in around 60 on the Echostar 6000 meter.

It is a fuzzy home shopping network. Evidently, the analog signal they are upconverting comes complete with snow to give you that nostalgic feel of an analog channel. :rolleyes: I don't think I'll be bothering their engineering department, asking for 5.1 sound or anything. :p

I do notice that 29 gets mapped to 25 by the Echostar receiver, yet 32 doesn't get mapped to 31 (which I thought was supposed to happen). Maybe that's because there is a 31 analog in the guide, or maybe channel 32 just doesn't remap.

Mark

So I wonder what kind of an antennae and rotor mechanism will be needed to get both Cheyenne and Denver DTV stations clearly once all (or a tiny few as the case is now) are up at full power.

Anyone want to hazard a guess?

Dan

Dan,

No way we can get KMGH up here. So I'm hoping that when KGWN gets on the air (soon??) that we can also get NBC (11) and fox out of either Ft. Collins (no one has been able to get a picture) or Cheyenne (don't know when they will be on air). So that leaves PBS out of ???

I guess what I'm rambling on about is, is it worth it to try to juggle 2 antennas just to get Faux out of Denver?? (or can you get more than that?). Because full power out of the Denver stations could be 2 years away.:mad:

Concerning the question of receiving both Denver and Cheyenne stations when they are at full power: I don't think it will be a problem as just about any (decent) antenna should work. Right now, I can get the 1/2 power Fox on 32 with just about anything. Analogs from Lookout are also good. Stuff on Lookout mountain should make it here fine, roughly 68 miles....Cheyenne's channel 5/30 is straight North of us near I-80 and US30 at a distance of 26.5 miles. Both of these give barely line-of-sight to Ft. Collins. Check channel 5 to see how 30 will work. The problem is how many obstructions are in your way.

The real question is: what about the low-power stations that are currently running out of Denver? Out of the 3 stations transmitting from Republic Plaza, only KUSA-DT has been in about 75-80% of the time at my house. Not to give KUSA a big-head, but their signal is the best out of 16, 18, and 35. Nothing at all on 17...So 16 must be running more power or a directional antenna as they out-perform 18 all the time, which is currently the only other station I get. To get these stations I run a Channel Master 3223, which is a 7ft long yagi. Not exactly a small antenna...The RS model VU-120 in the attic just isn't having any luck.

Concerning rotors, I think the RS model and the Channel Master (the same), will work fine for most TV antennas...I run a CM 9515 for a very large antenna array and it's held up to the crazy winds I get here.

Personally I'm just going to use 2 antennas, fixed, 1 pointing North and 1 pointing South, for the time being. Both are at about 20 ft. This will get by until Denver is up and running at full power.

Using 100,000watts.com, channel 11 is using 40 watts of power from what appears to be the channel 27 tower??, So I wouldn't count on this getting this one...I have yet to see anything yet...

Ken

Anyone seen anything out of KGWN yet?? I emailed Joan Turner last Thursday to see how things were coming along, but I haven't heard back from her yet (she usually gets right back when I email her - maybe she's taking some time off for the holidays).

Nothing yet. Anyone know anything???

Well, after talking to my friend in Cheyenne yesterday; He called Joan? at KGWN and it seems they are still not ready. Sounds as if they need to get their antenna up on the tower and that they still have not received the transmitter equipment...

This seems strange as I thought they had all the equipment. Getting the antenna up is one thing (think Wyoming weather), but not having all the transmitter equipment is another. They still predicting an end-of-month turn on.

Also, after trying to look at the channel 11 signal with a spectrum analyzer, he's not sure if the signals valid...he did find a signal, but not the pilot signal. Seems the station engineer is out of town this week...?


Ken

Rats. Everything I've heard from Joan led me to believe that they had all the equipment that they needed, they were just waiting for someone to come out and install it. But the weather has been fairly good lately. That shouldn't be an issue.

I still haven't heard back from her personally, though. I'll try again.

Oh, and I'm not even going to worry about 11 until they broadcast in HD (late spring??)

Thought I'd bump this up to see if anyone has any new information on KGWN?? I've emailed Joan Turner a few times but gotten no response. Strange because the first few times she emailed me back right away. I hope this dosn't indicate bad news.

I've checked a few times but don't get anything on my meter for channel 30 - anyone else?? Still nothing with the Ft. Collins fox either.

I noticed that KGWN has added a new "CBS 5 Digital TV" section in their station section: http://www.kgwn.tv/station .

But it doesn't say when they will be on, or even what channel.

Still, it is a good sign they are getting pretty close.

Mark

I got a reply from Joan Turner at KGWN, which I will pass along:

----------
Hi Mark,

Unfortunately this digital upgrade is moving along much more slowly than we had anticipated. Tallas, the company providing us with the transmitter is still waiting for a part before they can ship. They've told us "any day now"--other than that, we're ready to go. I would say that a safe bet would be by the end of next month. Keep checking and thanks for your patience.

Joan Turner
Vice President & General Manager
KGWN/Cheyenne

That's not the news I was hoping for...
:(

I hope they aren't waiting for a flange!
;)

Anyone heard any good news lately?

Also, I mentioned this in the Denver thread. If anyone is waiting for a decent deal on an HD box, Soundtrack has the Hughes DirecTv/OTA box on sale for $400 (pretty good deal!) At least it was on sale a couple of weeks ago when I was there.

I was reviewing some of the posts from this thread. This was posted early December:

Originally posted by digiphotonerd
According to antennaweb.org, here's the status of Cheyenne-based DTV:

KLWY-DT (Fox on 28) is scheduled to go live on Dec 11 2002
KKTU-DT (NBC on 11) is scheduled to go live on Dec 15 2002
KGWN-DT (CBS on 30) is scheduled to go live on Dec 31 2002

I've sent email to each of the above stations asking for an update. So far, only the GM of KGWN has responded:

I'll post the other responses if and when I get them...
- digiphotonerd

Here's what antenna web says today:

KFCT-DT 21 FOX Fort Collins CO Now Live 339° (Can anyone get this??)
KLWY-DT 28 FOX Cheyenne WY Apr 15 2003 341°
KGWN-DT 30 CBS Cheyenne WY Under Review 335° (What happened here??)
KKTU-DT 11 NBC Cheyenne WY Now Live 341° (Low power - not in HD)

I just got an email from Joan Turner at KGWN. It looks like they are finally close to getting on the air!!

***********
Our transmitter was delivered yesterday and is out at the sight. We are still waiting on delivery of a delay unit. Since we are in the mountain time zone, our CBS feed is delayed by one hour and we need this unit to transmit HDTV properly. Another month at the most???
***********

Great news! Maybe not in time for March Madness, but they should be up by the Masters!

I got an update from K2 NBC from Cheyenne (originates in Casper) today...

They broadcast on 33, DTV assignment is channel 11.


We had begun broadcasting a digital signal in Cheyenne on Ch.11. We have some problems over the past week or so, so it is currently off the air. I hope to get it back on next week. It is a very low power signal, so I am not sure if you will be able to receive it in Fort Collins. We have applied to the FCC for a substantial increase in power, and to move our transmitting site closer to Fort Collins. It could take a year to get that approval.

Thanks for your continued interest in K2.

Mail again in a week or two and I will let you know when it is back on the air.

Mike Brown
Chief Engineer
K2 TV


I think I'll post this on the Denver thread too. The way KUSA goes, this may be approved before they get their HDTV "Flange".

Greg

Thanks Greg. This is the first I have heard of them pushing to go full power. If they can be up in a year, that will be much earlier than we'd be able to get kusa!

But I'm afraid we may never see an ABC station up here!

Originally posted by gkanders
I got an update from K2 NBC from Cheyenne (originates in Casper) today...

They broadcast on 33, DTV assignment is channel 11.


We had begun broadcasting a digital signal in Cheyenne on Ch.11. We have some problems over the past week or so, so it is currently off the air. I hope to get it back on next week. It is a very low power signal, so I am not sure if you will be able to receive it in Fort Collins. We have applied to the FCC for a substantial increase in power, and to move our transmitting site closer to Fort Collins. It could take a year to get that approval.

Thanks for your continued interest in K2.

Mail again in a week or two and I will let you know when it is back on the air.

Mike Brown
Chief Engineer
K2 TV


I think I'll post this on the Denver thread too. The way KUSA goes, this may be approved before they get their HDTV "Flange".

Greg

Greg,

Did Mike Brown ever get back with you about this??

Mike,

No I haven't heard back yet. I'll send him an email this week to see if he has any more info.

Greg

Hi Northern Colorado,

I have just purchased the OTA tuner for my 6000 here in Windsor, went out bought a huge rat shack 100 mile UHF/VHF antennae, and a rotor.

I just wanted to say hello and post my results here.

DT-32 78-82% locked.

Thats it..........

I get a flicker or two some nights on DT-18, and 21, but never a lock. I have also tried all cheyenne stations that I could find listed and never even recieved a flicker of hope there.

Is anyone esle up here having any luck with KMRA, or any Cheyenne stations, I had high hopes for Cheyenne as they wont give me a waiver for CBS on my dish account, so I assumed that they would have some love for me over air, guess not.

Thanks for some great reading over the last couple of years, I will try to contribute more if I ever get anything else.

Stefan


:D

Welcome and congrats on your purchase,

Things are a bit boring up here in the Northern front: I live up in Wellington and here's whats been happening...

32 - Works with just about everything, 480p, better then analog.
16 - KUSA 9, Seems to be in about 75% of the time. 480i, best of the 3 on republic.
18 - It's been really in and out since 16 put there transmitter up. Great 1080i picture when its in... very hard to get now, but the best to show off the picture. I've only seen it maybe 3 times since January.
21 - No show here since last August, supposed to be up and running. Copy of 32
29 - Bad, snowy re-broadcast of 25
46 - New, seems to be as strong as 16, religious...480p

17's got a analog translator on Horsetooth
35's got a analog translator in Estes

30 - Still waiting to hear from these guys, they are going to be full power (630kw) sometime soon...any word anyone? Nothing here as of yet.

The best aluminum in the air for me is the Channel Master 3023 looking South, the RS antenna only gets 32. Looking North with a UHF RS antenna.

Windsor's kind of in a RF hole, as its low...The girlfriend lives there and even the analogs are tough. You might try 16...Tonight 16, 32 and 46 are in...I believe most folks in Collins and Greeley only get 32.

Good luck,
Ken

Originally posted by KC0COU
30 - Still waiting to hear from these guys, they are going to be full power (630kw) sometime soon...any word anyone? Nothing here as of yet.

...I believe most folks in Collins and Greeley only get 32.


Welcome TheaterWizard,

Here in Greeley, I am only able to get 32. Never been able to get 21 even though it's 10 miles from my house. But it's the same as 32 anyway. I get blips on other channels, but nothing close to being able to get a picture.

30 - which is KGWN CBS out of Cheyenne, is a question mark?? There have been delays waiting on equipment, but on March 11, Joan Turner (GM of the station) emaied me that they had their transmitter at the site and were just waiting on a device to delay everything an hour for Mountain Time Zone (a Tivo?? ;) ) but that they should be up in about a month.

So last week I emailed her to see how things were going and to see if they might be ready for the Masters - but she didn't get back to me yet. So I'm not sure the status at this point. Hopefully very soon!

KGWN's website is www.kgwn.tv and has a small blurb about HDTV and email addresses for Joan and others.

Thanks guys,

As expected I will continue to wait and keep trying, I have never had so much as a blip on 16, but I will keep trying. CBS is the most important to me being an AV's fan I would like to see at least one playoff game this year in HD that would justify the purchase itself.

Thanks for the link to KGWN I will start the process of contacting them as much as possible.

Stefan

Stefan,

Let us know if you hear anything.

As far as the Avs, I know some of the playoffs will be in HD (ABC for the Cup Finals, ESPN-HD also - but who knows if anyone will be able to see it!) But CBS doesn't carry any hockey.

And it seems that our road to the finals may have gotten a little easier with the Duck Sweep of the Redwings!! :) So hopefully we will get to see a little HD Cup Fever Hockey. The Avs were on HDNet a few times this year and it looks incredible!!

Thanks my mistake on the CBS/ABC thing. I still have my fingers crossed for the ESPN-HD deal to come in before the finals in which the AV's will be in........ :D

I should have kept the DTV system, but it looked like Dish would have more HD programming a year or so ago, now who knows the whole 121 satellite thing has me wondering if they will wait until its up before they bring any new channels??? I have yet to see a hockey game in HD, you can probably see the green tinge all the way from Greeley of my jealousy here in Windsor, oh well I am not jumping ship just yet on this one.

Too bad about the wings.....NOT!:eek:

Stefan

Anyone heard any updates on any of the Cheyenne stations?

I've emailed KGWN a couple of times with no response.:confused:

In my endeavors, I have emailed twice, and left messages, with no reply. Either they are sick of us calling about this, or something is happening and they are waiting to reply when there is good news????????

I have settled with the existing sat channels available to me now, and occasionally flip over to fox for a quick laugh about how much I have invested for a 480p 4X3 image. :(

Stefan in Windsor.....

I spoke to Mike Brown again today via e-mail. He is the KTWO (NBC) engineer (Cheyenne KKTU channel 33 analog, channel 11 digital). He had some interesting and positive news. I asked him about their DTV status out of Cheyenne. Here is his response:

Actually we are still having some intermittent satellite delivery problems in Cheyenne with the DTV. Its been off for a couple of weeks. It looks like we are trying to have the new digital signal on the air by July 30th. It will be moved to west of Fort Collins, and will be a full power, covering all of Denver clear up to, and covering Cheyenne. Because of the weird combinations of DMA's, Equity is not sure what programming will be aired yet.

I hope that helps a little. Don't hold your breath on that date, everything seems to move a lot slower than intended.

I then asked him if the 7/31 date was for the current low power setup or the high-power Ft. Collins setup. His response:

The low power should be back on next week. The high power is July 30.

I'm pretty sure 7/31 won't happen (these dates always seem to slip), but in Feb they were talking about a full year to get a high-power setup, so this is pretty cool news.

Greg

Ugh!

This whole OTA stuff is driving me crazy! At an NAB convention they gave FCC chairman Michael Powell some award. They should have given him the raspberries instead! The FCC's whole "hands-off" (do nothing) approach has allowed the local broadcasters to thumb their noses at their customers for far too long.

Their requirements should have been FULL POWER for DTV or big fines from the start. Period. No roof top antenna where you have to set your TV up in the station's parking lot to get a signal. It took this kind of government strong arm tactics and bullying back when national TV was first born in the 1940's. Companies whined and complained, but eventually put up the money. Now they can file waiver after waiver after waiver to delay for apparently almost no reason while their parent companies go buy used car dealerships.

On another note, what would you consider to be the best antenna and rotor setup to get both Cheyenne and Denver stations clearly (when the latter are at full power on Mt. Morrison and Lookout)? Thanks!

Dan

Here in Longmont, I've been seeing ch. 30 at about 15 off the back side of my antenna (need >30 signal to actually see/hear it). Anyone seeing a signal from 30 and (if so) any HD? A scan of previous posts left me with the impression that they weren't OTA yet... please correct me if I'm wrong about this. Maybe just a test signal?

Couldn't agree with you more, Dan. Weak FCC = weak or non-existant DTV stations (at least here).. Sorry, but I can't be of much help with the rotor/antenna question. I'm just going to point in the direction of the first solid signal I can get for network HDTV. I've seen some HD from Denver, but the break-ups and sound drop-outs are annoying to say the least. We really need full power in this terrain to go 40+ miles unless you are fortunate enough to have really good visibllity of the distant front range from your location. Else, as you indicated, we are waiting for full power.

Not sure if full power will happen concurrently with the antennas being placed on Mt. Morrison/Lookout - it may be a continuation of the waiting game... antenna location may improve things enough even with less than full power - only time will tell.

Yes, KGWN appears to be on the air! I hadn't checked in a while until reading Mark Gibson's post.

Signal strength here is a strong 90-ish on my Echostar 6000, quite a bit stronger than KDVR-DT Denver. Of course, you pretty much have to have a rotator or second antenna to get them both. In some places, maybe an indoor antenna would work for one or the other.

Things aren't perfect yet at KGWN. The current SD program they are showing is stretched to 16:9. And the audio is encoded as 5.0, but there are only the left and right channels, and they are out of phase. In Pro-Logic mode, you get sound only from the rear because of the phasing. Briefly, one channel cut out so I think they are working on it. Hopefully they will get proper 2.0 encoding soon, and it looks like they are equipped for 5.0/5.1 for CBS special events.

Maybe we can get KGWN Engineering to monitor this thread, though it would probably be better if the title included something about southeast Wyoming.

Mark

Mark,

What kind of antenna and rotor do you have to pick up both the Denver and Cheyenne broadcasts? Do you like them so far?

Dan

Dan,

I have a Winegard CA-7080 medium directional antenna, preamp (Winegard AP-8275) and Channel Master 9521 rotator with remote. The antenna is mounted on the second story roof. I'm in East Fort Collins, not far from Drake and Lemay. Receiver: Echostar 6000.

It isn't a very large antenna (it is 90" long) but the gain charts showed very good UHF performance and pretty good Hi-VHF performance. My analog reception with it is OK except for channel 6 (very snowy) and 2 (somewhat snowy), plus some weird interference (FM radio?) on 9. If you are concerned about analog, you might want a bigger antenna. The CA-7080 has been replaced by the HD-7080. If you want more info, let me know. I'm not sure the pre-amp is really needed for the DT stations.

I got most of this stuff from www.spectravox.com.

Mark

Dan,

I read about some discontinued RS antennas at another forum and tried one out...

Model Number: VU-210XM This is nearly 16 ft long (but comes in sections).
Catalog Number: 15-2157 (This is the number to use when checking).

Model Number: VU-160XR This is nearly 12 ft long (but comes in sections).
Catalog Number: 150-2155 (This is the number to use when checking).

Note that one is 15-2157 and the other is 150-2155 -- the 15 verses 150 is not a type-o, although it doesn't really seem to matter if you use 150 or 15.

I looked around in Denver and found a VU-160XR and it works well for me for all VHF and UHF analog signals (I am only about 35 miles from Lookout).
I have mine in the rafters above my garage, and my actual house is between the antenna and downtown denver, so the only DTV station I get with that is KDVR. I use the also discontinued (catalog # 15-623) RS Double Bow Tie indoor antenna to get the Denver DTV stations. This little bueaty picks up all of the broadcasting stations except KMGH, but I don't really count them as broadcasting yet anyway.
I do see (bad) analog signals of channels 5 and 27 coming in the back of the VU-160XR, so I found another one and bought it to point north (haven't put it up yet).
You may want to call around any RS's in your area and see if they have any of these (use the cat #). I got my first VU-160XR for $3.97, the second one for $2.97, and the Double Bow Tie for $1.97. So the price is right.
Good Luck, Greg

Okay, so here's what I can verify:

Channel 30 is up and running into at least into Wellington. The picture appears to be 480i in stretched mode. I need to run the monitor in 16x9 to get it to appear normal. Audio is quite hollow sounding....

Signal strength appears quite weak at the present time. I'm getting some pixels and an occasional dropout. I can only receive it on a RS-75 pointing North. All the other (South) antennas and an indoor bow-tie are unable to get a lock. Appears to not be at full power yet...I'm about 30 miles as the crow flies to their tower.

I get the following on the source info screen (WinHDTV):
Resolution: 1920 x 1088
Aspect: 16 x 9
SNR: 21.3 dB

Kudo's to KWGN for getting DTV up and running, hopefully they'll get some steam on the signal and turn on the HD part.

I'll check tomorrow to see if anything has changed.

Ken Duran

The signal seems to have gone full power around midnight. This is really great.. My congrats to KGWN as well - great Northern Colorado signal.

Edit - signal went back to its low power level at around 1:45 am 5/27. Seems they were just testing the transmitter. Should be a great signal, though, when fully implemented... Hope it's soon!

I notice the station web site now displays "KGWN-TV is now digital!" on their home page at www.kgwn.tv.

I guess that means it is official. I hope HD will be coming soon and the audio gets fixed, if it hasn't been yet. The stretched SD looks pretty bad.

Mark

Well, I don't get KGWN from the "back" of my antenna (in Lafayette), but I've got my other antenna up, pointed North, but not connected yet (these are in my rafters above my garage). So it'll be a good test to see if/how well this works. I hope to test it this weekend and let you know early next week.

Greg

Well, what a nice surprise! We were in Cancun for a week and I come back and find out that KGWN is on the air! (And news that ESPN-HD may be added to D* soon!).

I flipped it on this afternoon and got a 100% reading, but no sound at all. On the Denver thread someone posted that they were getting Dolby Digital -- are they doing some testing or having some problems with the sound??

Anyway, sure good to see them. NBC should be next!

I do get KGWN from the back (side?) of my south-facing antenna in SE Fort Collins. Signal strength is very good, with no dropouts. Unfortunately, I wasn't getting any audio as of lunchtime 5/30/03 -- has anyone notified KGWN yet?

Originally posted by mknoebel
I flipped it on this afternoon and got a 100% reading, but no sound at all. On the Denver thread someone posted that they were getting Dolby Digital -- are they doing some testing or having some problems with the sound??

Anyway, sure good to see them. NBC should be next!

Just to clarify the DD mention...

I haven't checked in a few days, but - while the 'Dolby D' lights up on my receiver, the sound (with problems noted earlier) was from their SD source. Besides the audio issues, the video was also stretched SD even though the programs are available in HD. With the low power, audio issues, and stretched SD video it appears that they are still in the testing and issue-resolving phase.

Last night, their signal was too low for me to see anything. I get the KGWN analog signal with snow (but watchable) using the same VHF/UHF antenna - so their DTV coverage is less than their analog coverage at this time.

I didn't see any feedback area for technical issues on their webpage or mention of HD either for that matter (but I didn't look too hard). I'm looking forward to when they go HD and DD5.1 with full (or substantially increased) power, but it's just not there yet...

I hooked up my norht facing antenna last night. I get the analogs from the north pretty snowy (3, 22, 27, and almost 33). Not really watchable.
I didn't get a blip on 34 (that's KGWN's DT channel, right?). I'll have to move things around...
Greg

KGWN (Cheyenne) is on 30. KWGN (Denver) will be on 34 when they go live.

As some others have reported, there seems to be no audio at all now. And still everything is stretched SD. But signal strength is still good for me.

Thanks for adding SE Wyoming DTV to the title--maybe we can get some Cheyenne folks involved and get KGWN to monitor the thread. Joan Turner, KGWN's general manager, sure doesn't seem to respond to e-mail anymore.

Mark

Well, I tried my north facing antenna on Sunday afternoon/evening (when A Time to Kill Started). I was able to get the analogs pretty well (5, 22, 27, I could not get 33, but didn't expect to) but only with the antenna outside (not in the rafters). But no matter what, 30 DTV (and 21 DTV) never had a blip. Mark (in Longmont), is your antenna pointed north? Was anyone watching at this time? Were they transmitting? I'm surprised I didn't even see a blip. It was like I was tuned into KMGH -- Nada!

Mark (Longmont again), got your PM... My main driving force to getting KWGN is that I'd like to have a non-market CBS station during football season, so that if the Broncos are on FOX on an AFC Double-header day I can get the second game. I'm also hoping that if the HD game is on opposite the Broncos, we could talk KWGN to broadcasting the HD game on 30, whereas I don't even think KCNC would have that option.

FYI everyone... I had David Bott change the name of the thread, so maybe we can get the station engineers to monitor the thread (and maybe contribute).

Thanks, Greg

Greg, my antenna is an omni-directional amplified RS - not sure if RS still carries it. KGWN seems to notch up their power during prime time, then back down again during the 10 PM news. During the prime time hours, the power is in the low 40s to low 50s (with break-ups/drop-outs) on the E-86 signal strength meter, but other times it is in the low teens. The change is rather sudden, so I suspect that it isn't just atmospheric conditions. UHF needs some help (power) to get over the ridges, alot more than VHF. They need to crank up the power to duplicate their analog coverage. On the first days of their transmitter testing, they had a whopping signal that went al the way to Denver with still a strong signal. Haven't seen it since. It would be nice to know if they are at their legal limit during prime time or if we can expect more from them after they get the kinks worked out. Anyway, I suspect the sig isn't making it over the ridge near hwy 52 (half way between you and Longmont) and that the other ridge just north of hwy 66 (north of Longmont) is making it difficult for Longmont, and adding to your problem. When (if?) they go HD, I'll probably turn my yagi north to get them better since Denver is weaker. Hopefully by football season KGWN works things out.

Glad to see the title change also - thanks David and Greg.

Looks like we've got some sound on KGWN-HD now. The DD light was even on. The sound seemed a little bit soft, but it's getting there. Still a stretched SD picture though - hopefully they get that fixed soon.
No email back from Joan Turner yet.

I'm interested in trying to get KGWN-DT in south Fort Collins. Anybody have any suggestions on what type of Antenna I should buy? Indoor or outdoor? Brand? Model?

The choice of antenna may depend on how long it takes for KWGN (and the rest) to increase to full power. Tonight they seem to be still running at a low-power level.

I'm using a Radio Shack U-75 UHF antenna pointed North to receive them. It's a fairly compact antenna at roughly 2 feet long. Works good in an attic...$20 I think...

I'm sure an indoor antenna will work fine when KWGN gets up to full power.

Stay away from any of the "Terk" style of antennas that most places are selling. They are way over-priced and most contain a broadband amp that gets overloaded easily. For the same money you can get much more performance in a standard Yagi.

If you want to receive both Denver and Cheyenne you might think about a single antenna with a rotor. One last note: Most of the current stations are planning on using the UHF frequencies except for KKTU-DT (channel 11) in Cheyenne.

These guys have lots of choices and will UPS:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/index.htm

Ken

Originally posted by KC0COU
One last note: Most of the current stations are planning on using the UHF frequencies except for KKTU-DT (channel 11) in Cheyenne.


Yes, but I was reading Foxeng over at HDTV Programming and he stated something I'd heard before, but forgot...
Once the transition is over, the stations will be able to SELECT which frequency they want to use, their pre-DTV freq. or their post-DTV freq (the new one). He also stated that is costs MUCH more (like 10's of thousands of $$/month) to transmit in the4 higher UHF freqs, because you need higher power, so you use more electricity. Because of that, KGWN-DT will PROBABLY choose to go back to channel 5 (my guess only), NBC will probably stay at 11. And he also mentioned something that I had not heard before. After the round of selecting the "old or new" channel, then station will be able to select channels that are not used and don't interfere.

So I'm not sure I'd want to go with a UHF only at this time. My guess on the Denver stations is that KWGN may not stay with channel 2 (bad for interference). KCNC may want to go back to 4, KRMA may want to go back to 6, KMGH may want to go back to 7, KUSA may want to go back to 9, and KDBI may want to go back to 12.

Of course we don't know what they'll really want to do, but I'm going to keep my combo just in case.

Greg

Good point, I have also read that after the transition, that stations could choose which channel they wanted. I think that some would based on the their market or history.

I also agree that the VHF-lo channels (2-6) tend to get quite a bit of interference via ionospheric propagation, so that the VHF-hi (7-13) channels would be a better choice. Around here, VHF-hi and UHF both seem to propagate equally well. Funny thing is that in the old days, no one wanted to be in the UHF band and the lower channels were always filled first. (anyone remember the translators stuck on channels 70-83?)

But I'm trying to figure out the economics of the going back: After investing in the UHF gear (transmitter, feedline, antenna), will they want to re-invest again? Unless, as I'm guessing, that most are presently installing a side-mounted UHF antenna to their existing tower as a stop-gap until they can go back to their original allocation.

This leads me to a couple of questions: In Denvers situation, after all the Lookout Mountian fighting, will KCNC,KMGH,KUSA and KWGN go back to their original VHF channels? Will the common DTV tower be able to support both? Considering that a planning board approval, will more then likely be needed, to change an antennas back to the VHF band.

Maybe what will happen is that the actual channel will be in the UHF and the receivers will simply re-map back to the original channel, sort of what is happening with the new receivers (9-1=16).

I was hoping that most would stay in the UHF region, as the receive antennas can be made more compact, efficient and easier to use.

Ken

Off topic, but has anybody else recently noticed extreme interference on the lower analog VHF channels (2, 4, 6 from Denver)? I've looked around at adjacent channels but can't find anything that matches the "ghost" images I can see on channel 4. Thought I saw the word "Mexico" in the background once. Am I seeing long range propagation? Sunspot activity? Or do I need to look around for a local ham that may be having problems? Usually I get pristine analog OTA reception on those channels.

When I checked last night, I had no signal from KGWN-DT 30. I assume they were or are off the air for awhile.

Maybe they are working on their problems. I sent an e-mail to their engineering dept. a few days ago, but I didn't receive any response. I did point them to this forum, but I have no idea if they will monitor or post to it.

Mark

I see KGWN-DT is back on, unfortunately with no improvement.

Cross posted from the Denver thread for you guys up North:

Pete McNally (the LCG spokesman) has put together an open house for all of us at KCNC once again for next Wednesday night, the 18th. Here's the message that some of us got from him this morning:


Friends,

As you know, the first LCG hearing before the Jeffco County Commissioners is set for July 1st. I’d like to invite you and anyone you may know who might be interested in the project to an open house at KCNC on Wednesday, June 18th from 6:00 to 8:00 pm. We’d like the opportunity to give an overview of the project and discuss key issues to obtaining the Commissioners approval. If you are able to attend, please send me an email if you can, although it certainly isn’t required.

KCNC is located at 1044 Lincoln Street in Denver.


(His original message had the wrong date in it, which I have corrected, and a map of KCNC's location. If you need directions, and can't find it in mapquest or something, post and we'll get you there.)

For those of you that have joined our little part of the world here since the last time we had a meeting at KCNC 18 months ago, their facility is really worth seeing. And I imagine that David Layne would be happy to show us around after the meeting.

July 1st is fast approaching, and it's my opinion that we need to come up with a game plan to present to the Jeffco BCC. You can bet your bottom dollar that Deb Carney is rallying the sCARE forces, and organizing the topics that they will talk about in front of the BCC. If we do the same, and go in there with a point for point counterattack against the crap that they are going to spew, then I think we have a chance of this thing passing and HD coming to Denver the way it should have 4 years ago. But, if only 3 of us testify to the BCC and don't coordinate our efforts beforehand, then this thing ain't gonna happen, and it'll be 2142 before HD actually reaches Denver, or give or take a couple of months...

KCNC is once again stepping to the plate by inviting us into their facilities. Let's not disappoint them by me being the only one to show up, ok? :D

Over the weekend I turned my antenna North to see if I could pickup KGWN-DT 30. I get 45-50 signal strength on my Hughes E86 receiver but no picture. Are they just sending out a test signal right now or should I be seeing something? The signal stays high but jumps around a lot.

Steve

BTW, Pete's email is pete@grinnellgroup.com

Off topic, but has anybody else recently noticed extreme interference on the lower analog VHF channels (2, 4, 6 from Denver)?

What you are experiencing in a form of propagation known as Sporadic-E skip (Es). This form of propagation is quite unique in that is able to refract VHF (30-200 MHz) signals back to earth.

Es occur when a patch in the E-layer of the ionosphere becomes ionized. Normally, the 'E' region of the ionosphere is transparent to VHF signals and they pass straight though into space, but during an Es opening the patch will reflect VHF signal back to earth. The cause of this is still a subject of debate, but one theory is that wind shear in the upper atmosphere is causing the ionization.

When an opening occurs, the Maximum Usable Frequency (MUF), starts low and builds up in frequency, and can vary from minute to minute. Normally, channel 2 (54MHz) will be effected first and then higher channels will come in. During extremely rare openings, even channel 7-13 (173-213MHz) can be effected.

Es can occur at any time, but most happen in June/July and late November and the skip distance will be 900-1300 miles per hop.

Don't confuse this with the F-layer skip, which is the mode that Shortwave (HF) signals use to bounce around the world. This skip is directly related to solar flux / sunspot cycle and only rarely makes it to 54 MHz.

Tropo-scatter and Tropo-Ducting are the other forms of propagation that effect TV. Tropo-Ducting is caused by temperature inversions and are very rare in Colorado due to the mountains. Tropo-scatter, on the other hand, is a very common form of propagation that works into the UHF region. This is the mode that causes stations below the horizon to be viewable up to 150 miles away. Around here, early mornings and late at night seem to be the best. If you are seeing variations on signal strength from night to night, this is probably the reason. This is the only reason I've been able to view the downtown stuff up here.

As an Amateur radio op, I try to work these and other weird propagation modes on VHF, UHF and microwave frequencies. The openings this week were pretty good; Monday was into the Houston, TX area and went to 220MHz (very rare), Tuesday was into the California area with both West and East hops in again tonight...

Long winded post,
Ken Duran

I finally got a reply from KGWN engineering (the secret seems to be to send it to engineering, and copy Joan Turner, the General Manager).

I asked if they were aware of the audio problems, and when they would have CBS HD. The reply:

Thanks for the note Mark,

We will be H.D. as soon as C.B.S. gets the bugs worked out. Also Mark, we are not broadcasting in stereo yet. We have a few more changes to make and equipment to install. Then you allways have THE BUGET hanging over your head. Anyway it should be done soon.



CBS-5 ENGINEERING

So, at least they are still working on HD, and it sounds like they are getting help from CBS to do it. I'm not sure my message on the audio problem got understood correctly, but I think they are currently just attempting to encode their mono analog audio (I don't think they do stereo at all). But, even that isn't working right.

I'm happy they finally replied. As a small market station I'm sure it is challenge to get the conversion done. Heck, they even had to cut a "D" from the "BUGET." :) And, if they wonder if anyone is watching, they at least know a few of us are.

Mark

Glad you got a reply, Mark. And if they are monitoring this site, I check KGWN-HD every day to see how it looks.

Ok Guys I sold a eco6000 to a gentleman in Cheyenne 1.5 years ago, and just upgraded it to receive OTA HD today. I figured that if I could get the station here in Windsor with a rooftop antenna then he should have no problem with rabbit ears as he lives about a mile from the military base. After installing the 8VSB and hooking up the powered rabbit ears I was getting a signal of 68-80(unstable). Then while watching it the picture kept dropping out sometimes to zero? Not to mention the audio was displaying DD in the Yamaha receiver, but seemed to be cutting in and out of stereo(low to high output). Anyone heard anything from them since the last post here? Seems like they just gave up.

Disappointed in Cheyenne:(

I haven't checked in a couple of days, but there has essentially been no change since they first got on the air. The audio problem has been there from the beginning.

I have seen momentary video freezes, but signal strength has been very good. You may need a more directional antenna.

Sharing your disappointment... :(

Mark

I still cant hardly believe I'm able to watch KWGN-DT all the way down here in Littleton from time to time. Obviously they have good signal strength. Albeit the only reason I'm getting it at 100 miles or so I suppose.... is due to specific atmospheric conditions.

As I type this it's reading a solid 81% on my Dish 6000 (on 5-1). Course 10 minutes from now it will disappear altogether. :)

Hi from the Denver OTA HD thread!

I can get KGWN too way down here in Golden at 8000' I watched it this morning. Good Signal about 70 on my 6000.

Is there a website listing the status of the Cheyenne stations? If not, could you please post a quick update on the stations (especially ABC!) Thanks!!!!

Ernie,

This is as close as I could find for stations being on air. There is no ABC station out of Cheyenne. And for some reason, KGWN is still stretching an SD signal on their digital staion and they have gotten worse at responding to emails.
:confused:

Hopefully they will have the bugs worked out in time for football season!!


Digital Antenna Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live Date Compass
Orientation
* yellow KFCT-DT 21 FOX Fort Collins CO Now Live 339°
* yellow KLWY-DT 28 FOX Cheyenne WY Aug 4 2003 341°
* yellow KDEN-DT 29 IND Longmont CO Now Live 189°
* yellow KGWN-DT 30 CBS Cheyenne WY Now Live 335°
* yellow KRMT-DT 40 DAY Denver CO Awaiting FCC Permit 193°
* green KTVD-DT 19 UPN Denver CO Dec 1 2003 198°
* green KWGN-DT 34 WB Denver CO FCC Extension 198°
* green KBDI-DT 38 PBS Broomfield CO Aug 31 2003 208°
* green KPXC-DT 43 PAX Denver CO Awaiting FCC Permit 195°
* lt green KDVR-DT 32 FOX Denver CO Now Live 198°
* lt green KCEC-DT 51 UNI Denver CO Awaiting FCC Permit 198°
* blue KKTU-DT 11 NBC Cheyenne WY Now Live 341°
* blue KTFD-DT 15 TFA Boulder CO Under Review 195°
* blue KUSA-DT 16 NBC Denver CO Now Live 185°
* blue KRMA-DT 18 PBS Denver CO Now Live 198°
* blue KCNC-DT 35 CBS Denver CO Now Live 185°
* blue KWHD-DT 46 IND Castle Rock CO Now Live 165°

********************************************************

This says that the Cheyenne Fox station will begin tomorrow. I haven't seen a signal from them (haven't really looked, either) but hopefully they won't have a terrible lip-sync problem like KDVR-DT does.:rolleyes:

Hi Northern Folks! I live in Fort Collins, SE area (Lemay and Harmony). I recently got my Mitsu 48511 and have been trying to get HD via OTA. So far I am getting nothing, not even a hint of a signal. I tried an indoor Silver Sensor, that I've taken back, now trying a RS outdoor amplified antenna and still not getting anything. How hard is it? Yesterday I stuck it out 2nd story bathroom and couldn't get anything. My TV has it's own decoder and I have to go through the "memorizing" setup each time. Was wondering if anyone in the area would be able to assist me with this?? Thought I would at least be able to pick up something. The antenna is not on RS webiste, and I don't know the exact model. It is an amplified multi-directional rated for yellow and green areas.

Thanks
Greg

Greg,

I'm within a couple of miles of you (SE of Drake & Lemay). I would think you would get at least a hint of a signal from KDVR-DT (32) from Denver, and KGWN-DT (30) from Cheyenne. KGWN is still having problems, but their signal seems pretty strong. I have a "medium directional" antenna and get these easily. Unfortunately, I have to use a rotator to get both. Your multi-directional would avoid the rotator, but it may have multi-path problems and less gain. Nevertheless, I would still expect you would get some type of signal reading.

How well can you pick up analog 31 with this antenna? If it is a reasonable picture without a lot of ghosts, I would think digital 32 would come in fine.

BTW, though they are digital, neither of these do HD currently, so there is no HD OTA in this area yet. The Fox Widescreen 480p programs can look pretty good, though.

Mark

Mark,

Thanks for the reply, I guess I haven't tried to get any analog channels. Didn't think about it. I've only had the antenna plugged into the DTV-ANT port and not a standard port.

So is KGWN not showing shows like CSI in HD?

Thanks
Greg

Originally posted by spawnman
So is KGWN not showing shows like CSI in HD?



Correct. They are just showing the same as the analog channel, stretched to 16x9, with messed up audio.

Supposedly they will do HD "soon" but nothing has changed since they went on the air in late May.

Mark

I emailed Mike Brown (Channel 2-NBC Cheyenne) asking when they may be ready to begin broadcasting in HD. He emailed me back today and this was his response:

It looks like we will have three standard definition channels available instead of HDTV. And as of now they will all be Spanish programming.

It is now scheduled to be on the air by October 15th.

:( This certainly is disappointing.

But at least Mike got back to me. kgwn doesn't see the need to respond anymore, I guess. So I don't have any idea what's going on with their stretched SD signal and audio problems.
:mad:

I sent another message to Joan Turner, the KGWN General Manager, yesterday. I basically said that if they weren't going to fix the problems, they should just shut the DTV transmitter off. It is truly useless.

I'm happy to see tonight that there seems to have been some improvement in the audio! They are now encoding DD 2.0, rather than 5.0, which is what they should be except if CBS is doing some type of 5.1 HD special like the Grammy Awards. The levels are better, and the left audio doesn't cut in and out. But the left and right channels are out of phase which gives the sound a tinny, diffuse effect when listening in stereo, and it throws all of the audio to the rear if you try to decode it as Dolby Surround.

I reported this status back to them, we'll see what happens.

Small steps, but maybe a good sign.

Mark

I think I was premature in claiming that the KGWN left audio doesn't cut in and out anymore. It was doing it again during their 10 PM newscast last night. But it isn't as bad as before when it would go from nearly inaudible to blasting loud.

There were some other problems during the newscast also (freezes/breakups when they used certain graphics or changed scenes).

Mark

So, do you think there's any chance they do HD for the Sunday NFL game??

Mike,

I wouldn't count on it.

I did watch the entire upconverted Broncos/Bengals game today on KGWN-DT. This is the first time their audio has been good enough for me to tolerate the channel for more than a very short time. But it still isn't right. The left and right are out of phase, and the left still gets louder & softer with occasional cracking sounds. Their mono analog channel 5 audio is much better. It's kind of sad that people on the other forums are up in arms about Circle Surround vs. Dolby 5.1 when getting decent mono audio from KGWN-DT would be a major step from where they are now!

KGWN-DT did give a cleaner picture than any other source available to me for the game, and the stretched picture isn't too bad for a football game.

I notice some of their station ID's say "HDTV Channel 30." Since they have never broadcast one minute of true HDTV, as far as I know, this is very misleading. Their web site claims an "HDTV signal" also.

I noticed their encoder (presumably) goes wacky from time to time when they are doing live up-converts of their newscast. Certain graphics cause total loss of picture and sound, and there are many momentary "freezes."

Has anyone else watched long enough to confirm my observations? I think they will need to get these fixed before they will move on to HD.

Mark

P.S. If anyone can do a D-VHS tape of KGWN demonstrating their audio problems, CBS can analyze their bit stream. PM me if you would be willing to do this. I have a W-VHS, but that doesn't do them any good!

How depressing is this thread turning out to be, I was truly hoping for some OTA HD up here in Northern Colorado this year. Sure makes you feel like we are way behind the rest of the country. :( :(

I notice that KLWY-DT (Fox) is now on the air, transmitting on channel 28. It seems to map to channel 10--I'm not sure why since their analog channel is 27.

For me, it isn't a very strong signal (around 60% on my Echostar 6000) and I get lots of breakups. I have no idea if they will carry Fox Widescreen stuff.

When I tuned in last night, only the left channel had audio. At the same time, on KGWN-DT, only the right channel had audio.

Doesn't anyone at a Cheyenne station have two ears!?!?

Mark

It's because their digital channel is 28, which maps to 10-1. While I'm on line however, quick question.

The Cheyenne Local KKTU broke contract with NBC and is now broadcasting ABC. Supposedly they had a digital channel, 11. The conversion from NBC to ABC was prior to me getting my HD receiver. For the life of me, I can't get KKTU (ABC) digital. I can get Cheyenne CBS, and NOW as quoted previously, FOX on 10-1. IS Digital channel 11 active for KKTU. ny assistance is appreciated... Thx... Mike....

I think the question is "why does it map to 10-1?" Typically, you would see they map it to 28-1 or 27-1 (the digital or analog channel) Why map to a (seemingly random) 10?
I sent a note to the KKTU engineer and will post any information.

Thanks, Greg

According to antennaweb.org, KKTU is indeed an ABC affiliate. It also says it's live now, but I'm not getting it.

I don't know how the change of affiliates will change their plans, but I got this email from their chief engineer on September 2:

> It looks like we will have three standard definition channels available
> instead of HDTV. And as of now they will all be Spanish programming.
>
> It is now scheduled to be on the air by October 15th.
>
> Mike Brown
> Chief Engineer
> K2 TV

I received this from Mike today:

> Still working on the low power. Even when it is running I don't think you
> could see it. The high power is still in process, still 60 to 90 days, and yes
> we did change to ABC in Cheyenne.
>
> Take care.
>
> Mike Brown
> Chief Engineer
> K2 TV

He didn't mention simulcasting 3 (spanish) channels. Hopefully, that was just while they were trying to get a new affiliate agreement in place. We'll see someday.

Does anyone have any clue as to whether KKTU's signal is going to be HD or SD?

This is what I got from Mike the engineer also.

MY QUESTION: Why can't I seem to get KKTU Digital Channel 11?

ANSWER: Probably the first problem is that it has been off for a couple of weeks. We have had some trouble with a satellite receive system at the site and are awaiting some parts.

Second, when it is on its a very low power signal, only about 50 watts. We
are in the process of upgrading to a full power signal and a new antennae.
Hopefully that should be done in the next couple of months.

The low power should be running again in the next week or so.

I hope that helps.

MY QUESTION: Where is the transmitter located and what about HDTV?

ANSWER: The tower and transmitter are at I-25 and Terry Ranch Road. In this case, this was the basic minimum requirement to meet the FCC deadlines, until we get the full power running.

I do not know of any plans currently to do High Definition. The current
plans are to use the bandwidth for multichannel broadcast.

Mike Brown
Chief Engineer
K2 TV
4200 East Second Street
Casper, WY 82609

So it looks like we may not be getting ABC HD from KKTU afterall. Oh well. Later... Mike...

Question concerning KGWN (CBS) Digital Cheyenne. I know their audio track is messed up. Still was the other night. Read a lot about that in the forum.

How about the HDTV signal??? Do they ever broadcast in HDTV or just their upscaled 1080i signal. I tried watching a few things in the last couple nights that were advertised as HDTV according to Titantv.com . Either they aren't broadcasting much if any in HDTV, or I not really impressed.

I have seen some HDTV HBO on my Directv and it looks much better than the regular HBO channel. Any input on KGWN Cheyenne????

Come to think about it, any new inputs on FOX' future in Cheyenne???? HDTV???

Later... Mike;....

We've been waiting for an HD signal from KGWN for some time now. When they were trying to get their tower/signal up, they were very good at returning emails and letting us know about their progress.

Unfortunately, they (specifically Joan Turner, the GM) has not returned an email in some time. Her email address is at www.kgwn.tv if you want to give it a try. Good luck and let us know if you find out anything.

I do not know of any plans currently to do High Definition.

Uhh, you just crushed all of my hopes. I knew it was too good to be true. :(

I have seen zero HDTV from KGWN-DT. Everything is just a stretched up-convert of their analog channel. And although they have fiddled with the audio a bit, it is still messed up (though I haven't tuned in for a few days to check).

A while back, I wrote to the KGWN web master indicating that their claim of HDTV on their web site was misleading. I got this reply from Jason Lindsey, who is also their chief meteorologist, familiar to KGWN viewers:

-------

Mark,

Hello!

KGWN has been broadcasting its signal in high-definition for several months.
We have actually had several Northern Colorado viewers comment on our high- definition signal that we provide for the entire region. You can find this
high-definition signal at channel 30 on your high-definition television set. I
will send this e-mail to our engineers so that they can send you an e-mail back
explaining in more detail about our high-definition signal. Until then you can
click on the link below to read more about a high definition signal.

http://www.kgwn.tv/station/headlines/337776.html

Thanks and Take Care,
-------

Clearly, Mr. Lindsey didn't know they weren't doing HD. I sent a reply back attempting to describe what was wrong, but he didn't reply after that and neither did engineering. I don't know if they are actively working on HD or not. I do know they have an HD satellite receiver, so I expect the delay is related to time-delay equipment for the mountain time zone, but I am speculating here. I can't figure out ANY reason they won't fix the audio. Since they haven't even acknowledged the problem, I encourage phone calls and e-mails to cbs5tech@sisna.com (copy the general manager at cbs5gm@sisna.com) and let them know you want the audio fixed, and you want CBS HD programming.

BTW, This page (http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/wy/Radio_TV_On_Internet.asp?m=che) gives some station data for the region.

Mark

I agree that KGWN-DT had not shown any HD content. I've been monitoring on and off since they started and the signal content appears to be a DTV version of their analog feed (including snow). Even shows that could be HD have not. They are encoding at 1920 x 1088 / 30 frames per second in a 16x9 format.

Also the strength never really has increased...I still get drop outs even while using a yagi facing North. If they were at full power, I would expect quite a bit better strength. Fox 32 from Denver is receivable with anything.

Nothing from KLWY-DT (Fox) 28, has anyone seen this lately? I have yet to catch this one.


Ken

I just emailed the GM at KGWN. We'll see if she responds. FOX channel 28 (10-1) went hot it seems about a few weeks ago or so. I noticed that while fiddling around with my antenna that FOX was pickey. I could get KGWN in any direction. Granted living in CHeyenne Helps. FOX on the other hand seemed much lower power because if I wasn't within 30 degrees I loose the signal. (Rooftop antenna)

I'll be checking with FOX soon to see what their future plans are. Currently it's just digital 480. A little cleaner than their analog, but no major difference.

I guess living here in Cheyenne is a little too far away to pick up Denver. I tried. I can pick up the Analogs half way decent. PBS almost perfect. NBC 80% nice. Same with ABC. No CBS from Denver. A couple other stations here and there. Guess it's just to far for digital. Who knows maybe KGWN, KKTU, and FOX in Cheyenne will do HDTV some day. We'll keep hoping... Later... Mike...

Ken,

I haven't been able to lock KLWY-DT except for one night, and that was with a lot of breakups. Now it seems to barely move the meter. KGWN-DT is somewhat stronger for me than KDVR-DT. So, I guess it depends on where you live. I see dropouts on KGWN-DT mainly when they are doing "live encoding" like for their local newscast. I don't think that is signal-strength related.

Christcorp,
The main problem with the Denver digitals is they are only low power from a Denver downtown skyscraper. You can only receive them within a few miles of downtown. Check the Denver HDTV Tower thread for more info. The only exception is KDVR-DT Fox (32) from Lookout Mountain.

Mark

Well, I did receive an email back from the GM, Joan Turner, at KGWN CBS in Cheyenne. She thanked me very much for the email. She thanked me for being polite, knowledgable, and considerate.

"I know, Kiss Kiss". LOL. Anyway, after thanking me, she said she would immediately have her engineer contact me via email to discuss both the AUDIO problem and the HDTV broadcast problem. Or should I say the "Lack of HDTV Broadcast"

She asked that if I did not receive a reply from her engineer within the next couple of days to please contact her again immediately.

So, at least she responded. Maybe because I too kissed up in my email to her. Maybe because I'm a local with greater advertising and buying power. Who knows???

The thing that matters is I currently have her ear and if it get's US HDTV programming with stable Audio, then I will Kiss away.

Actually there are 2 things that I consider important here. One, we on these forums, whether it's here or the hometheaterspot.com are sort of family. We share information and that makes everything better for all of us.

2nd, having spent 21 years in the Military and now working for one of the largest telecommunications companies in the world, I've learned the "Give and Take" game. It doesn't matter if I'm a consumer or not. These people are just like us working "X" amount of hours a day to feed, cloth, and house their families.

So for the purpose of HDTV on CBS, Joan Turner and her staff are the MOST IMPORTANT people in the world to me. I'll treat them as such.

I'll keep everyone informed of what's going on. NEXT STOP: KLWY FOX, Cheyenne. LOL... Later... Mike...

As posted on the Denver forum: Channel 38 is up and running with a good signal here in Wellington. I believe they are broadcasting from Squaw mountain, which gives great coverage up here. There is a point as you get West in Fort Collins where the foothills will shadow the signal, so check it out.

They are running 720x480 at 30 frames/sec tonight. Hopefully they'll run a 'demo' loop to show off 720p or 1080i.

Ken

Edit: Seems they're also using sub channels. I need to download a software plug in to get this feature to work on the WinTV card...dial-ups are slow.

Edit 2: Okay, getting 3 sub channels: #1 is channel 12 feed. #2 is a the blues special, and 3 is a single frame with the station logo.

Three cheers for KBDI!!!

Very strong signal here in SE Ft Collins (near I-25 & Carpenter).

As of noon today, channel 38 had:
"12-1" = regular channel 12 feed
"12-2" = "Camp KBDI" (kids' shows)
"12-3" = single frame, something about "PBSYOU" coming soon

Can't wait to see the demo loop...

- digiphotonerd

P.S. In-attic Winegard HD-7082 + AP-8700 preamp, FWIW...

Apparently, Comcast is now offering HDTV over cable in Denver. Has anyone called to see if it's available in Fort Collins?

Michael (Christcorp),

Did you get any follow-up from Joan Turner or KGWN Engineering?

Mark

I had emailed KGWN also, and received a reply from their engineering dept. The latest word is that most of the equipment for HD is in place and they are awaiting the arrival of the remaining few items. All should be in place shortly. I didnt' ask whether this will resolve their audio problems or the occasional breakups.

Sorry folks, been away on business. Yes I did receive an email from the engineering staff. Here it is as an exact quote

""""Michael,

Joan passed along your e-mail to our engineering dept. Due to the fact that we must delay our signal up to and sometimes more then one hour we have encountered a small problem with finding a server that will handle the HD signal. Everything else is in place and we should have this resolved very shortly. The other problem we are facing is budget limits. As you know going HD was a big expense. If you have any questions please feel free to contact us.""""

Not a PERFECT response, but as least he responded. Basically we are in a "Wait and See" Status. It does look however as though CBS on KGWN Cheyenne will eventually have HDTV.

Much better hopes than KKTU (ABC) Channel 11(Digital) that doesn't seem to have any HDTV plans for the near future. And of course there's good old reliable FOX Cheyenn KLWY. LOL!!! I'll keep you all posted... later,,, Mike,.,,,

Michael,

It's great you got a response. I had guessed that there HD delay was related to the time-delay issue.

It seems like that shouldn't be an obstacle to them bringing us the Broncos/Steelers game in HD this weekend, which isn't delayed. I sent an e-mail to Joan Turner asking if they can pass along the game in HD, but I got no response.

They also still haven't fixed the audio, nor, as far as I know, acknowledged that anything is wrong with it or they are working on it. Anyone know anything different?

Mark

I wish they would just send the HD signal at the "East Coast" time rather than a stretched SD signal. And as Mark mentioned, I don't understand not passing the live HD events (SEC and NFL football).

Okay, so I've been seeing another DTV channel: KTFD-DT 15.
Seems to be a DTV version of channel 14 - Telefutura.

Nothing earth-shattering: 480i, 4x3 , and not very strong.

Also tonight KBDI-DT has a strong sync, but I'm not decoding any programs.

I also saw a blurb stating that FOX may have 720p this fall. Anyone else have any info?

Ken Duran

Fox going to 720p will begin some time late this season or starting with the next.

Of course, because of their previous anti-HDTV stance it may take a while for their affiliates to buy the necessary HD equipment that they should have had in the first place. Murdoch... you just gotta hate him.

Dan

Originally posted by mknoebel
I wish they would just send the HD signal at the "East Coast" time rather than a stretched SD signal. And as Mark mentioned, I don't understand not passing the live HD events (SEC and NFL football).

FWIW, during the first few minutes of 3rd qtr of last Saturday's SEC game, they did pass thru the HD. It looked great for a short while, then they had audio/video dropouts - sometimes to a blank screen. Hopefully that was something they were doing during the test, and not indicative of real problems. Sound was DD5.1, left and right spkr ok (didn't listen to see if the center was ok), but nothing from the rear speakers.

Has anyone heard anything from KGWN and their HD signal??

And how about KKTU?? Does anyone know if they have plans to pass an HD signal?? At one time they were just planning on 3 SD signals. Hopefully that has changed!

I've heard that Comcast is offering a handfull of channels in HDTV in Denver. Does anybody know if/when they may offer this in Northern Colorado?

Regards,
Dave

You can sign up on their website to get an email from them when HD Cable will be offered "in your area". I did that and haven't heard anything about Greeley yet. They did send me an email a few days ago saying that it would be soon -- whatever that means.

Glad I found this thread, but of course disappointed with the lack of local/network hd available. Moved to Fort Collins from Denver last year.

I got a waiver from kcnc, but tried in vain to get a waiver from kgwn so I could get the cbs hd feed through dish. Anyone have any luck getting a waiver from kgwn? I'm gonna write one more nice letter and beg.

I was/am considering switching from dish to comcast. I was told by the comcast csr that HD cable would be available in fort collins december 1st.
Plus I'd get that extra $10 back they started charging for internet service without cable service - what a load of crap that is...

At the moment I 'm thinking I'll stick with dish and will try an antenna in the attic, since I have all the expensive hardware (dish 6000 with 8vsb plus dish pvr) and see that others here are getting something on antenna. Just maybe we'll see some changes in the next year or two with signal and content from denver and cheyenne...

Really enjoyed reading this thread. Very informative. Thanks guys.

John in FC

I'm still leery about using Comcast for HD in Fort Collins. They have crappy service for standard analog cable, so I doubt they'd do a complete 180 for HD. They even use an antenna to pick up the Denver locals (that's why the picture is prone to the same static problems as putting a rooftop antenna up)! So it would be a complete no-go for Denver HD signals unless they put the complete infrastructure in for a land-line fiber feed (or power micro-wave dish from Comcast central in Denver).

Besides, it sounds like cable companies may start doing the same data reduction and stat muxing that DirecTV is doing now for HDTV sources because of the lack of resources (some already are).

I guess we're pretty much completely scr-wed here in Northern Colorado unless we put up with the PR fiascos (DISH losing money and delaying their rollout of more HD with no new HD channels in the pipelines currently, the SuperDish stalled, and the 811 & 921 receivers with no new release dates; then there's the Murdoch buy-out mess and the so-so HD quality on DirecTV) with satellite and still no HD locals.

ARGHH!!!!!

Dan

Good points Dan

I did not realize comcast could be using antenna for some stations and what that might do for getting locals in HD. I've been with dish for years and recall the pathetic picture quality I used to get with analog cable.

I did order the other HD module for my dish 6000 box along with a year of the dish HD pak - all for $109, and will play around with the stealth channel master antenna and amp. Hope I can get something with an attic mount since the HOA won't be happy if I do a roof mount. One can only hope and wait and wait. Good grief.

John in FC

It's always good to hear of more HD'ers in the FC area. I sometimes wonder if KGWN seems to have lost steam in implementing HD is because they under estimate the number of potential new viewers that HD brings. You may want to let them know that we're here and anxiously awaiting their HD. Just a thought.... anyway, the GMs email link is on their main page (Contacts) at www.kgwn.tv

Especially if they turn down the request for a waiver for CBS HD from E*, they might be able to give an expected date of their own HD since they are responding anyway. I ping them every once in a while with a polite email, but I haven't heard from them lately.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by johnnyeck


I got a waiver from kcnc, but tried in vain to get a waiver from kgwn so I could get the cbs hd feed through dish. Anyone have any luck getting a waiver from kgwn? I'm gonna write one more nice letter and beg.

I had the best luck by calling their main number. The receptionist knew exactly what I wanted and I had my signed waiver faxed to me in two hours. They even sent it to E* and all I had to do was call the next day, answer a couple questions (do you have a HD display?, etc.) and I was watching the KCBS feed that night.

I'm in Longmont and I don't know if a waiver is granted as easily in FC, but this was my experience. Good Luck....

Should have mentioned that this was about a month ago. So far I've been pleased with it. The highlight was seeing the Broncos/Vikings in HD a few weeks back. Be warned though, if they are covering an NFL game that is different from what KCNC is showing at the same time it'll be blacked out.

Originally posted by whtevr77
[QUOTE]Originally posted by johnnyeck



I had the best luck by calling their main number. The receptionist knew exactly what I wanted and I had my signed waiver faxed to me in two hours. They even sent it to E* and all I had to do was call the next day, answer a couple questions (do you have a HD display?, etc.) and I was watching the KCBS feed that night.

I'm in Longmont and I don't know if a waiver is granted as easily in FC, but this was my experience. Good Luck....

I believe longmont is outside of of thier DMA. Check out the link below. Us poor folks up here in Northern Co. wont ever get a wiaver as long as we are listed in this circle of doom. I have had 5-10 customers including myself apply for a waiver and been turned down flat every time.

KWGN circle of Doom (http://www.asktheexperts.org/kgwn/102967.html)

Good luck all, Ive been waiting for anything here in Windsor for years now.

Wow, finally there's a strong HD station receivable up North.

I'm getting a great signal on any antenna that I use, including a loop in the basement.

Getting 1920x1080i with a 16x9 format.

I'm guessing everyone's watching the 8:00pm shows...nice.

Congrats to the crew that set all this up. This is how it should work.

Ken

KC0COU,

What equipment are you using? Antenna, amp (if necessary), rotor, and HD box?

Are you pointing the antenna directly at Lookout?

Dan

Dan,

No major setup yet: I run a Hauppauge Win-HDTV tuner card in my computer using a multi-sync monitor to view. I originally got this to as a cheap way to test out the DTV signals.

I've tried a few homebrew and commercial antennas over the last couple of years, but now I use a Channel Master CM3023 looking South and a RS U-75 looking North. Both antennas are about 20ft off the ground and are fixed. Lookout mountain is 190 degrees from true North at 72 miles, and downtown is 180, so I leave it roughly pointed between them.

I can't run any preamps as 3 FM stations are located just East of me, and any preamp just gets saturated. I had to install a FM trap to kill the interference on the analog channels. Coax is 50ft of RG-6.

I haven't bothered to put the TV antennas on any of the towers or rotors, that I use for the amateur radio stuff, because I thought by now that most stations would be high power and I could stuff them in the attic.

I should mention that I'm at 5200ft, and have a fairly unobstructed view to the South of the house. I get much better reception here then when I lived in West Fort Collins years ago.

Ken

Originally posted by KC0COU
Wow, finally there's a strong HD station receivable up North.

I'm getting a great signal on any antenna that I use, including a loop in the basement.

Getting 1920x1080i with a 16x9 format.

I'm guessing everyone's watching the 8:00pm shows...nice.

Congrats to the crew that set all this up. This is how it should work.

Ken

Are you still receiving this station, if so is it 1080 all day long?
Had a HD tuner for a while and sold it as I was not able to pick up anything here in Windsor. I may get another one if this is the real thing!!!
Thanks

Are you still receiving this station, if so is it 1080 all day long?


Yah, They've been running 1080i all day long. But the only shows in HD are in the evening from the network. They are sending a stretched 4x3 for some reason. I have to run my output in 16x9 even though I view on a 4x3 monitor.

The evening news is also extremely good: the graphics / colors are amazingly vivid. When I watch on channel 2, the analog signal I never was able to see this detail.

As for a receiver, you may want to read the recent Denver thread, as the PSIP seems to be causing some issues with certain models. My receiver doesn't map, so I've never had any issues.

Signal strength is still excellent...If you were able to get fox 32, you should have no problem with 34.

Ken

It sounds like they are sending a 16x9 1080 picture of upconverted standard definition 4:3 fair, but not true HDTV yet.

Anybody have a way of measuring the bitrate, and are they using the full 19.3 Megabits/sec?

Why bother fiddling with this station until you can get the genuine HD article?

Dan

KWGN (Denver) does do true HD for the WB programs that are in HD. The rest of the time they stretch 4:3 to 16:9.

On another topic, we're now about a year past the time that Joan Turner at KGWN (Cheyenne) said they will be "fully HDTV" by the end of December, 2002. As of yet, they have done no HD whatsoever. And the left and right audio polarity (phase) still seems to be reversed, just like always, despite our pleas to fix it. At least it doesn't drop in and out like it used to.

What a disappointment they have been.

Mark

Their station ID screen still states "HDTV channel 30" - it's been at least since the beginning of October, don't remember if it has been longer. I think this will also be a big disappointment to those getting HDTVs now with the prices dropping and package deals to be had, and only finding out that it's a big lie. This misrepresentation doesn't help their credibility, or the HD movement in this smaller market either. They should strongly consider to stop advertising that they are in HD, or step up to the plate.

I thought I'd just post my HDTV experience:

I live in SE Fort Collins, near the intersection of Harmony and Timberline.

With a standard loop/rabbit ears antenna in the attic of my 2-story house, no preamp, and a cable all the way down to my basement, I am picking up these digital stations:

12-1 (KBDIDT)
12-2 (KBDIKID)
12-3 (KBDI-U)
5-1 (KGWNDT)
2-1 (KWGN-DT)

Obviously, I'm seeing the same problems as everyone else with 5-1, but maybe they'll get their act together sometime soon.

Now, if only I actually watched anything on the WB. Oh well...

I got this email from Joan Turner. Sounds encouraging for the superbowl.

"Hello John,
Thanks for your interest.
We've run into a snag with HDTV due to the fact that we are on the Mountain
Time Zone. Because of this, our CBS signal is delayed/recorded, and we are
attempting to purchase a device to delay and record for HDTV. We hope to
have this situated by the end of January.
Because we take the Superbowl feed live, you should be able to watch this in
HD.
Thanks again for watching,

Joan Turner
Vice President & General Manager
KGWN/Cheyenne"

Well, there have been live NFL and SEC football games since September that haven't been broadcast in HD yet. I sure hope that they start passing an HD signal, but this is the same story we've heard for a while now.

As I've said before, I wish they would pass the HD signal as they get it "live" (as they get it from the East Coast), even if it would be an hour off from the normal time it would be shown in mountain time zone (for shows like CSI, etc). At least until they can get their "HD-TIVO" working. ;)

Here is a time line of the KGWN-HD progress compiled from posts in this thread:

From 12/10/02
On 11/27 Joan Turner at KGWN emailed me that they were still hoping for mid to late December

From 12/18/02
Joan Turner at KGWN has now said that is will be January before they are on the air. They are waiting for a crew to install the transmitter at the site. Everything else is set to go.

From 1/9/03
Well, after talking to my friend in Cheyenne yesterday; He called Joan? at KGWN and it seems they are still not ready. Sounds as if they need to get their antenna up on the tower and that they still have not received the transmitter equipment...

From 1/24/03
Unfortunately this digital upgrade is moving along much more slowly than we had anticipated. Tallas, the company providing us with the transmitter is still waiting for a part before they can ship. They've told us "any day now"--other than that, we're ready to go. I would say that a safe bet would be by the end of next month. Keep checking and thanks for your patience.

From 3/11/03
Our transmitter was delivered yesterday and is out at the sight. We are still waiting on delivery of a delay unit. Since we are in the mountain time zone, our CBS feed is delayed by one hour and we need this unit to transmit HDTV properly. Another month at the most???

From 5/26/03
Yes, KGWN appears to be on the air! I hadn't checked in a while until reading Mark Gibson's post...Things aren't perfect yet at KGWN. The current SD program they are showing is stretched to 16:9. And the audio is encoded as 5.0, but there are only the left and right channels, and they are out of phase.

From 6/19/03
We will be H.D. as soon as C.B.S. gets the bugs worked out. Also Mark, we are not broadcasting in stereo yet. We have a few more changes to make and equipment to install. Then you allways have THE BUGET hanging over your head. Anyway it should be done soon.

From 10/8/03
Due to the fact that we must delay our signal up to and sometimes more then one hour we have encountered a small problem with finding a server that will handle the HD signal. Everything else is in place and we should have this resolved very shortly. The other problem we are facing is budget limits. As you know going HD was a big expense.

Anyone tune in to KGWN during the Broncos playoff game?

All I got was a black screen. There was some audio on the right channel only, and nothing on the left.

I haven't checked them since then.

Mark

Same thing here in windsor, just a big ol blank screen.......:mad:

I just checked and noticed that there is a picture now (Wheel of Fortune). The sound seems to be breaking up.

Originally posted by TheaterWizard
Same thing here in windsor, just a big ol blank screen.......:mad:

Yes, but it was a blank screen with up to 10 times the resolution of a standard definition blank screen... :D

I guess if I want to be an optimist, maybe it means they were at least trying something different.

Mark

Originally posted by mbuchana
Yes, but it was a blank screen with up to 10 times the resolution of a standard definition blank screen... :D


LOL it was the best looking black screen I have seen yet, looking forward to white next week, then maybe someday soon........"Color bars".

Hey all!! Check out KGWN!! They are sending an HD signal for the Titans/Patriots game!!

WOOOOOOOOO-HOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
:)

YES!!! But, I'm seeing some freezes every 15 sec or so... same for you or is it my reception (good signal strength, but I'm prone to interference or multipath from them)?

Same for me. I did here Gumble say that they were having some technical difficulties, so I'm not sure who's end the problem is on.

Thanks Mike!

As I check around, I'm fairly sure the audio problems are from KGWN. I still give them credit for getting on the air with the game in HD!

So did anyone else catch the football game on channel 30 that just got over? It was in full HD with the correct audio.

I just stumbled onto it with 15 minutes left in the game.

Maybe the Superbowl will be in HD...

Ken

I didn't see last night's game on KGWN, but today's Colts/Chiefs game is just giving me a blank screen so far (11:20 AM). The channel keeps changing mapping from 30-1 to 5-1 and back. Maybe the switch to the live HD feed is something they need to work on.

Mark

Hi folks,

I'm making my first foray into digital TV reception, using a Dish 811, and a GE Max antenna that I got cheap on a closeout sale a couple years ago. As far as I can tell, it is a helical coil type similar to the much maligned Terk 55.

For rooftop mounting locations, I have a choice of the east side of the house which would favor downtown Denver, and the west side, which would favor Lookout/Squaw. Both from the consideration of adjacent houses on my north-south running street, a couple of which have rooflines a foot or two higher than mine.

I spent a fair amount of time this weekend experimenting with locations and orientations, and ended up putting it as far east as possible, pointing slightly west of south, on a homemade mount which puts it 1 foot above the ridgeline. I say "pointing"; though this is claimed to be an omnidirectional antenna, it has the expected optimal sensitivity when horizontal and approximately perpendicular to the source.

By the way, this antenna is amplified, and having the amp on definitely helps,
with channel 16 being a solid 0 when it is off.

Thus, my reception report:

15 49%, no lock
16-KUSA 49-61%, 50% lock
18 49%, no lock
28 49%, no lock
29 49%, no lock
30-KGWN 49-60%, 10% lock
32-KDVR 49-72%, 50% lock
34-KWGN 70-75%, 100% lock
38-KBDI 80-85%, 100% lock
46-KWHD 49-60%, 20% lock

Can anyone suggest someone who does antenna installation in the Fort Collins area?

I believe University TV in Fort Collins or Pro-Tech Electronics in Greeley both do antenna installs in the Fort Collins area. At least they used to do them. I don't have experience with them for antenna installation, though I've had some warranty and non-warranty repairs done at both places.

University TV 970-226-3215
Pro-Tech 800-491-5202

Mark

My company, Rocky Mountain Broadband can do an antenna installation for you in Fort Collins. We mostly do sats, and Wireless Broadband anymore.
You can PM me or call.
970-222-3474
Stefan

Looks like KGWN is passing an HD signal for the AFC Championship game. The pre-game is in HD and looks good!

O Glorious, Glorious HD signal on KGWN...Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.
No sound dropouts...looks awesome!!!

Yup. Sound is much better this week. My receiver says it is in DD 5.1, but I don't hear anything coming out of the center speaker.

Wow, is all I can say...The snowflakes really add to the HD effect. The sound also seems correct, but I can't detect any multichannel. No drop-outs here.

Looks as if KGWN can pass real-time HD. Let's hope in 2 weeks everything works the same.

Ken

Good work by KGWN!

I agree that they only seem to be carrying stereo audio on the L & R channels (no center or surrounds), even though the DD 5.1 flags are set. The polarity of the L & R are correct during the game, so it does decode surround sound nicely if you use Dolby ProLogic mode.

When they switch to local ads the L & R polarity seem to be reversed and everything goes to the back of the room in DPL mode. This has been the case since they first went on the air. Fortunately, the game doesn't have this problem.

Mark

WOW, real HD over air, I am impressed!

Cant say it was worth the wait though, as I have been waiting for this for at least three years.

Nice job KGWN on a great feed, no signal loss here in Windsor.

I am watching the NFC game on fox, and it looks good as well, what a day for football in Northern colorado. Too bad its not the Bronco's playing in one of the games today.:D

NBC, ABC where are you?!!!!!!

Stefan

Originally posted by KC0COU
Wow, is all I can say...The snowflakes really add to the HD effect.
Ken

I agree 100% the snow made that game the one to watch in HD.
Stefan

Originally posted by TheaterWizard
WOW, real HD over air, I am impressed!

Cant say it was worth the wait though, as I have been waiting for this for at least three years.

Nice job KGWN on a great feed, no signal loss here in Windsor.

I am watching the NFC game on fox, and it looks good as well, what a day for football in Northern colorado. Too bad its not the Bronco's playing in one of the games today.:D

NBC, ABC where are you?!!!!!!

Stefan

Are you watching the NFC game in HD on Fox? Although I get several digital Fox feeds, all of them look like upconverted SD source.
What channel are you watching?

I watched the game on FOX 32 transmit 32-1. It was clear enough and not stretched as it has been before so I assumed that it was HD1080i. My plasma is an EDTV or 480P and I can tell a big difference between progressive scan DVD at 480p and HDnet at 1080i, the fox channel looked just as good as the 1080iCBS signal or HD net, go figure?


The game was true 16:9(unstreched it filled my widescreen) however durring commercails the picture went 4:3 and the picture looked like up converted SD.

Stefan

Originally posted by TheaterWizard
I agree 100% the snow made that game the one to watch in HD.
Stefan

That's interesting...people actually PREFER a snowy picture... :D

The Fox widescreen stuff is 480p (I think the de-interlacing is done at the station). It certainly is much better than NTSC, but nowhere near the 1080i HD picture quality on CBS IMO.

Mark

Originally posted by mbuchana
The Fox widescreen stuff is 480p (I think the de-interlacing is done at the station). It certainly is much better than NTSC, but nowhere near the 1080i HD picture quality on CBS IMO.

Mark

Probably why my plasma looks great on both, and the bigscreen(1080I mits) seems to have a better picture on hdnet, and CBS than fox. but since the plasma is only 42" compared to 65" in the big screen I still like the look of the plasma better on either channel. Sounds wierd, but I like the smaller screen better even though its only 480P.

Stefan

Originally posted by mbuchana
(I think the de-interlacing is done at the station).
Mark

Why wouldnt they de interlace the commercials, or even the daytime shows as well? They all seem to be SD and 4:3. I have never seen the fox station look as good as it did this afternoon durring the game.

Originally posted by TheaterWizard
Why wouldnt they de interlace the commercials, or even the daytime shows as well? They all seem to be SD and 4:3. I have never seen the fox station look as good as it did this afternoon durring the game.

I assume you are watching KDVR Denver...not KLWY...correct me if I'm wrong.

I do believe they have a different digital 16:9 feed from the network.

And they do quite a few of their prime-time non-reality shows in 16:9. To me, those look close to DVD quality. They aren't HD, but they look quite good. I think the difference between Fox Widescreen and true HD is much greater in the live event sports-type programming than for these filmed shows.

Anyway, starting later this year we should see Fox in true HD.

Mark

You are right mark, it's KDVR. It must be me, but I still think the picture I saw today on fox looked better than anything I have seen on that channel before.

Have to agree with you on the filmed shows vrs live sports, the sports look quite a bit better than the film transfers. Everybody loves Raymond is a good example of a poor transfer, the red overkill drives me to prefer the analog channel as much as I watch that show(not much).

If fox gets better than I saw today, I will be very pleased, so I look forward to that.

I saw on antennaweb that KDVR is to go live in march, but after the promises I have heard over the last couple of years, I am not holding my breath for that one either.


Thanks for your reply,
Stefan

Does anyone else notice that KWGN is off the air? I swear nothing
changed, but all of a sudden, I'm not getting Channel 2-1 any more.
Anyone else seeing the same thing?

jcloudm,

I am getting KGWN-HD (7th Heaven is on) at 7:30pm.

Strange. I just looked on my Zenith SAT-520, and for some reason, the signal strength on KWGN (not KGWN) has gone down to "Bad". Oh well, it's not like I really watch the WB anyways.

Yes, I'll reiterate that Fox primetime and sports programming, at this time, is 480i 16x9 upconverted to 480p. Nowhere near true HD resolutions.

However, starting next season Fox's head of programming stated that they will make the switch to 720p like all ABC owned stations (including ESPN).

All pre-recorded Fox programming is mastered at 1080p. Most studio productions do this so they can have one ultra high quality master where they can easily downconvert to any and all resolutions.

Dan

Anyone else having terrible reception on KGWN this evening? My signal strength is right in it's usual range, but the picture is breaking up constantly.

Bryan

bryankaiser,

No, actually KGWN is passing an HD signal again and I'm getting it without any problem. The state of the union is in HD! Not as much fun as the NFL playoffs, but hey - way to go again, KGWN!
;)

Hmmm. I switched to another channel for the state of the union. I wish I had stuck around. I'm still having trouble with the picture though. I guess I'll have to go adjust the antenna. Thanks for the response Mike!

Bryan

My friend told me I am one of the few who can occasionally pick up DTV-21, which is FOX. American Idol is on now ( I don't care for the show), but am looking for HD content. Signal is ~60%, sound is good. I live in the foothills off 38E, south west Fort Collins and reception OTA is horrible. Using a Yagi placed in the den (for the Superbowl). I am reporting on DT-21 because I can't pick up DT-32 out of Denver.

Later,

Mike

MKB:

You are the first person I've heard of who can actually get Fox on 21. I'm in the southeast part of town, not far from the new FCHS, and I can't get it, maybe due to multipath reflections from the foothills. But I can get 32.

Mark

MKB:

I can't keep a signal on Fox 21 either, but have no problem with 32 (other than the occasional lip-sync issue that they won't fix).

By the way, I can't quite tell from your post, but the Super Bowl is on CBS, not Fox. Getting CBS out of Cheyenne shouldn't be a problem (channel 30). You will probably notice that everything is just SD and stretched - but they have passed an HD signal for the NFL playoffs the past two weekend as well as the State of the Union and the sitcoms after it on Tuesday.

A quick update on my signals.

I put a HD receiver for a customer in west Greeley monday and after plugging in his receiver to the attic antenna, I received signal on 16 or KUSA-DT, it was kind of weak 58-62 with a samsung HD receiver, but the first time I have seen this signal up here.

Needless to say when I got home I finally decided to replace my ratshack 80" UHF/VHF jobber with a Winegard HD9095p UHF only "Yagi" style.

So after a half hour of messing around, and adding another 5' length to the pole, I checked the signals and picked up KUSA-DT with 65-68 signal. the others are up to 70-85 now. With a turn of the rotator I am getting KGWN strong as well. Whoo-Hooo!

So now out of old town area windsor using the above antenna, tenfoot mast from the roof of a single story, no preamp or booster and a Echostar 811 I am getting these channels.

KWGN 85% WB2
KDBIX3 78% PBS
KUSA 68% NBC
KDVR 81% FOX
KGWN 75% CBS Wyo

Now where's ABC?? Hopefully soon.

Stefan

Hmmmmm, maybe I need to replace my rat shack antenna as well. Where did you pick up your Winegard antenna Stefan?

Originally posted by mknoebel
Hmmmmm, maybe I need to replace my rat shack antenna as well. Where did you pick up your Winegard antenna Stefan?

Mike, I bought the winegard wholesale through Perfect-10 distributing. If you want one I can get more. I am very impressed with it as you can tell by my posts. :)

Stefan,

Please check your PM.

Thanks.

Originally posted by mknoebel
MKB: Yes, I do get CBS from Cheyenne. I did catch last weeks CBS game in HD. When the NFC game was on FOX, of coarse, I could not get a lock on DT-21. Tonight, 21 is locked, with occasional pixelization issues, but for the most part it is coming in good.

Mike

I can't keep a signal on Fox 21 either, but have no problem with 32 (other than the occasional lip-sync issue that they won't fix).

By the way, I can't quite tell from your post, but the Super Bowl is on CBS, not Fox. Getting CBS out of Cheyenne shouldn't be a problem (channel 30). You will probably notice that everything is just SD and stretched - but they have passed an HD signal for the NFL playoffs the past two weekend as well as the State of the Union and the sitcoms after it on Tuesday.

Its great to see a thread for Fort Collins/Northern Co I've bookmarked it.

TheatherWizard - congrats on getting all those channels from Windsor. I have friends that live there and it clearly is higher than Fort Collins.

I live over by the Southridge golf course and with a attic antenna and booster I get 21 and 31 but sometime loose 21.

Not sure when Cheyenne started broadcasting in HD - I gave up on them a long time ago and then when the playoffs started discovered they were in HDTV. My Directv Sony HD200 does not give me the guide for the channels - even though I have zip code for Cheyenne entered as a alternate.

I do get WB now too - I have probably watched zip on that station - but one can only hope they get some decent programming.

Keep up the good work everyone. I was tired of reading the Denver forum as it had little info for me.

Anyone here know if Comcast in FTC will be adding HDTV anytime soon?

Reggie

Originally posted by A4Short

TheatherWizard - congrats on getting all those channels from Windsor. I have friends that live there and it clearly is higher than Fort Collins.

Reggie

Reggie,

Actually I live in the older part of windsor and we are in a valley that causes reception issues. I would think that receiption in FC would be better except close to the foothills where you may have multipath issues.

I have an antenna installation in FC tomorrow, and I will post back the results. I am going to do an attic install with a UHF only antenna, and try to get CBS from wyo so they can see the superbowl.

If you rotate your antenna 180 degrees you should be able to pick up KWGN-DT in cheyenne, but you will loose the Denver stations you have now.

Heard rumours about HD on comcast this summer, but nothing concrete. I will be happy with the major locals over air HD and my Dish system for the rest, never been a big fan of Cable TV.

Cheers,
Stefan

Stefan,

Good work on getting channel 16 from Republic Plaza. They seem to have the best signal this way out of the three stations transmitting from there. The Jay Leno show is really quite sharp.

I'm quite amazed that your getting it so well in that part of Windsor as it sits quite low. I kinda figured you were up on the hill South of 392. You might also keep an eye on 18...it's weaker most of the time, but when 16's in so is 18.

16's been good here for the last couple of nights. It drops out or pixels some, but its been at least watchable. I noticed early this morning it was pretty decent.

I'm curious if you noticed how much difference the model 811 receiver made vs. the new antenna vs. the old receiver. I've heard that most of the newer generation receivers are getting better at decoding the DTV signals, due to upgrades in the software algorithms for multi-path and such.

I'm looking at the 811 as my OTA DTV receiver since I already use Dish. Did you get the $149 special from last month?

Ken

Originally posted by KC0COU
Stefan,

Good work on getting channel 16 from Republic Plaza. They seem to have the best signal this way out of the three stations transmitting from there. The Jay Leno show is really quite sharp.

I'm quite amazed that your getting it so well in that part of Windsor as it sits quite low. I kinda figured you were up on the hill South of 392. You might also keep an eye on 18...it's weaker most of the time, but when 16's in so is 18.

16's been good here for the last couple of nights. It drops out or pixels some, but its been at least watchable. I noticed early this morning it was pretty decent.

I'm curious if you noticed how much difference the model 811 receiver made vs. the new antenna vs. the old receiver. I've heard that most of the newer generation receivers are getting better at decoding the DTV signals, due to upgrades in the software algorithms for multi-path and such.

I'm looking at the 811 as my OTA DTV receiver since I already use Dish. Did you get the $149 special from last month?

Ken


Ken,

I was more supprised than you that i could get 16 down here, maybe its just the night, but lets hope it continues.

I am getting a strong 45 on 18, and have seen it jump to 54 once, but never locked it. I will keep trying with the new antenna. I have noticed that even with a 65plus signal on 16 that it still pixels a bit while I have not noticed that with other stations.

Actually I gave up on trying OTAHD with the 6000 quite a year ago and sold the 8VSB adaptor out of it, but when I had it the only thing I could pickup was FOX. I personally like the 811 much more than the old 6000, even though it glitches a bit and needs a reset every once in a while, the new menus make up for the hassles. It seems to lock only when I play around with the local HD channels anyway.

As a Dish retailer I dont qualify for promo's like that so I had to belly up for the full $349, however I sold the 6000 on ebay for $400 so I came out OK in the long run.

Thanks for the heads up on 18, I will keep trying it.

Stefan

Originally posted by TheaterWizard
Reggie,

Actually I live in the older part of windsor and we are in a valley that causes reception issues. I would think that receiption in FC would be better except close to the foothills where you may have multipath issues.

I have an antenna installation in FC tomorrow, and I will post back the results. I am going to do an attic install with a UHF only antenna, and try to get CBS from wyo so they can see the superbowl.

If you rotate your antenna 180 degrees you should be able to pick up KWGN-DT in cheyenne, but you will loose the Denver stations you have now.

Heard rumours about HD on comcast this summer, but nothing concrete. I will be happy with the major locals over air HD and my Dish system for the rest, never been a big fan of Cable TV.

Cheers,
Stefan

Stefan,

Let us know how the FTC install goes. I have directv right now and like how they seem to be adding more HDTV and looking forward for the TiVo HDTV Hughs receiver.

what is KWGN - I do get KGWN (5.1) I do not see KWGN listed on antennaweb. I will probably get a rotor added to my attic sometime for the UHF antenna. Will keep you in mind if I need a install done.

The subdivisions in Greenstone and upper Paragon Point are much higher than me - though I am fairly high for my subdivision (Huntington Hills)

Reggie

what is KWGN - I do get KGWN (5.1) I do not see KWGN listed on antennaweb

KGWN-DT (CBS) is on Channel 30 out of Cheyenne...Maps to channel 5.

KWGN-DT (UPN) is on Channel 34 out of Denver...Maps to Channel 2.

You should be able to get both, but if you have an antenna that is fairly directional, you will most likely require a rotator. 30's about 351 degrees North and 34's about 190 degrees South for me.

If your fixed looking North, you might try South, as there are at least 3 other DTV stations you should be able to get from Denver.

Ken

Originally posted by KC0COU
KGWN-DT (CBS) is on Channel 30 out of Cheyenne...Maps to channel 5.

KWGN-DT (UPN) is on Channel 34 out of Denver...Maps to Channel 2.

You should be able to get both, but if you have an antenna that is fairly directional, you will most likely require a rotator. 30's about 351 degrees North and 34's about 190 degrees South for me.

If your fixed looking North, you might try South, as there are at least 3 other DTV stations you should be able to get from Denver.

Ken

Thanks Ken- I do get both now without a rotor. SuperBowl on HDTV for sure

My buddy in this post helped me lock in KGWN, KWGN two weeks ago. I am SW FTC foothills west of Taft/South of 38E, so Denver is really tough with multipath issues, but I can "sometimes" pick up KUSA (night only). I get digital 21 (FOX) consistantly now. No rotor, antenna is temp located in den (Superbowl is priority no 1). I have the Dish 6000 with HD and OTA module. Seem to work fine, but I am eventually going to get the 811 and move this receiver to another room.

Cheers....

What is the deal with KWGN (2-1 and 2-2) out of denver? I have my attic antenna pointed north right now for the superbowl, and figured my poor reception of KWGN was due to it pointing the wrong way. However Reba was on HD on Friday and the signal was rock solid! But then Everwood tonight was all broken up like I normally see. Perhaps they transmit some shows at full power and others at less than full?

Originally posted by A4Short
Let us know how the FTC install goes.

what is KWGN - I do get KGWN (5.1) I do not see KWGN listed on antennaweb. I will probably get a rotor added to my attic sometime for the UHF antenna. Will keep you in mind if I need a install done.

The subdivisions in Greenstone and upper Paragon Point are much higher than me - though I am fairly high for my subdivision (Huntington Hills)

Reggie

Reggie,

Sorry about the KWGN/KGWN thing, I always mess those up.

Install went great, he had a Ratshack UHF only antenna that I put in his attic two stories up and received 85plus on KGWN 5.1(CBS) from cheyenne. Fox from denver also comes in great as well at KBDI, even with the antenna pointing north. This house was next to HP on Harmony and Ziegler. I am not sure where Huntington hills is?



MKB,
My KUSA-DT also seems to be stonger in the evening and sometimes I loose it altogether during the day? Must be atmospheric.

To put things in a nutshell:

Besides the obvious OTA DTV decoder box, what type of make/model UHF or UHF with some limited VHF capabilities (will some stations migrate back to VHF after 2007?) antenna and rotor should be good for a second story outside install (mast height can be up to 12' above the roofline as HOA "feelings" are not an issue here)? Fort Collins area near Shields and Horsetooth.

I want to act as though the upcoming LCG supertower on Lookout, KBDI on Squaw (soon to be on Morrison?), and the Cheyenne stations were theoretically running at full or close to full power (though none of them are now-- at best half for a few), so I don't need to buy another antenna later due to too little or too much gain, directionality, and/or multipath rejection (if that information needs to be in the equation).

Is a pre-amp necessary as well?

Help a newbie out, please. :)

Dan

Dan,

I would recommend the Winegard HD9095p UHF only "Yagi" style antenna. This model made a huge difference in signal strength for me after I upgraded from a 80" Radio Shack UHF/VHF model.

Being closer to the foothills you may have issues with mutipath, therefore the directionality of this antenna will suit you well.

I would not think a pre-amp will be necessary for you with that kind of height available.

I would not worry to much about the migration to VHF as there has been enough issues with getting as far as they are now.

Stefan

Thanks Stefan! What kind of rotor would you recommend with that antenna?

I would like to get Denver and Cheyenne stations.

Dan

Originally posted by TheaterWizard
Reggie,

Sorry about the KWGN/KGWN thing, I always mess those up.

Install went great, he had a Ratshack UHF only antenna that I put in his attic two stories up and received 85plus on KGWN 5.1(CBS) from cheyenne. Fox from denver also comes in great as well at KBDI, even with the antenna pointing north. This house was next to HP on Harmony and Ziegler. I am not sure where Huntington hills is?



MKB,
My KUSA-DT also seems to be stonger in the evening and sometimes I loose it altogether during the day? Must be atmospheric.

So HP is where I worked - till the layoffs last May. I am west on Harmony and south on Lemay. I'm glad that you were able to get those signals - should have also been able to get WB channel 2 also (not that there is anything good on the programming)

Dan

for a rotor try this: http://www.starkelectronic.com./rotor.htm#rotor

Reggie

So, is anyone in the Fort Collins area able to get KUSA-16 fairly consistently? For me, sometimes it comes in nice and clear at a 63-65 reading on my Dish811, but most of the time it's 49 and no lock.

Haven't tried a big Yagi yet, but a fair amount of experimentation with small
antennas, and just cant get 16 consistently.

30, 32, 34, and 38 come in clean all the time.

I'm near Harmony and College, and the antenna is about 30 feet high.

Originally posted by rjbrooks
So, is anyone in the Fort Collins area able to get KUSA-16 fairly consistently? For me, sometimes it comes in nice and clear at a 63-65 reading on my Dish811, but most of the time it's 49 and no lock.

Haven't tried a big Yagi yet, but a fair amount of experimentation with small
antennas, and just cant get 16 consistently.

30, 32, 34, and 38 come in clean all the time.

I'm near Harmony and College, and the antenna is about 30 feet high.

I'm near Skyway and College - but I do not get any of the Denver major networks - but I do not have a antenna on the roof - just in the attic.

Reggie

Any Northern Colorado folks able to get CBS-HD from DirecTv?? I called to activate it and they told me I'd need a waiver from KGWN, which of course can't happen until after the Super Bowl.

Hi all,
I just bought my HD equipment. I got a Hughes HTL-HD directv/OTA receiver from Best Buy, and a Radio Shack VU-90XR VHF/UHF antenna. I professionally installed the antenna by placing it carefully on my couch pointing towards Cheyenne. With that set up I am able to get 5-1 (CBS - KGWN) and 21-1 (FOX KFCT). Moving things around, I've been able to get 12-1,2,3 (PBS - KBDI) and sound on 2-1 (Don't know station). Unfortunately it looks like the HTL-HD receiver doesn't have a signal strength meter.

I'm hoping to put the antenna in the attic with an inline amplifier from Radio Shack (15-1170). I mainly got it since it is a long run from upstairs to down. Does anyone know if this is a decent amp? Will I be able to get more stations? Should I get a better one? With the antenna in the attic, I won't be able to put in a rotor. So my question is, is it possible to get a second antenna and point it towards Denver and combine the two signals onto one coax cable? Or alternatively can I "weld" or bolt the 2nd antenna onto the first one, since Cheyenne and Denver are both North/South, or will that change the antenna characteristics?

BTW I'm In SW Fort Collins, in the same neighborhood as Reggie. So Reggie, you are invited to my super bowl party (as is anyone else who wants to see the set up) :)

Ed

Greetings,

I just picked up an HD receiver here in SW Fort Collins also. I'm at Harmony/Shields, so a little closer to the foothills.. I'm running
a Channelmaster 3020 off the roof of a 2 story house, no pre-amp yet, but a
winegard 8275 is on order...

Currently I'm getting channels 2, 5, 12, 21, 31

I'm pretty happy with that but would love to get NBC, and I'm hoping the
pre-amp will do the trick.. My receiver is probably junk, a Samsung SIR-T151,
but I picked it up cheap.. I've read that a better receiver would probably
have more luck pulling in the distant stations..

I also have a funny story about the channel master.. There is a dipole you
are supposed to unfold when you set it up on the UHF antenna. Well, I missed
that step when I set it up years ago.. When I unfold it, I get a stronger signal on the Denver sides as expected, but I lose 5 out of Cheyenne that I was picking up on the backside (I have no rotor).. So I folded it back up so that I get everything again.. laugh..

Anybody else using a Winegard HD9095p UHF yagi, or other Winegard product, and are you having luck getting Denver and Cheyenne DTV stations?

Is there an equivalent Channel Master (or other product) antenna that may be cheaper, yet still pull in the stations?

Anybody try a Channel Master #4248 DIAMOND QUANTUM UHF yagi? As good, better, or worse than an equivalent Winegard? It definitely is cheaper.

With rotor, antenna, guide wire hook up for extra stability with wind, and installation (not even adding into the equation an HD box) it could cost over $250 with some combinations! Ouch! All this for "free" TV.

Dan

I am at Harmony and Taft, and I have a CM4228 UHF antenna. I can easily pull in KWGN-DT (WB), KGWN-DT (CBS), and KDVR-DT (Fox). No luck with KBDI, KUSA, or any other channels for the time being. My antenna is sitting next to my HDTV on the ground floor, so I'm not exactly getting the best signal.

Does anyone know if KGWN-DT will carry the Superbowl in HD?

Sidenote: KWGN-DT is awesome. I can get a solid signal on a little tiny RCA "rabbit ears" antenna. They seem to be the only station out of Denver broadcasting with a reasonable amount of power.

Dan, what is your approximate location and local geography?

In my case, from south Fort Collins, a plain ol' folded dipole made out of
twinlead gets 5(30) from Cheyenne and 2(34), 12(38), and 32, from Denver,
100% of the time, so far. It's just 9(16) that's giving me headaches, though
I am not yet finished with my attempts at ad-hoc RF engineering.

No rotor needed. It just has to be a couple feet higher than my 2-story
roofline.

The two story house (I call it "my" house just because it belongs to the only friend I have who has a large widescreen HDTV and I practically live over there watching DVD's LOL!, but alas no source for true HD yet) is close to Shields and Horsetooth. From the second story roofline there are no trees in the way to block signals... and has a pretty good shot of both Northern and Southern OTA signals.

I've been helping him out with the investigation of equipment since he's into computer software a lot more than HT stuff.

Been debating between D* and E* and may go with E* for other HD content because they're offering free equipment with no long term commitment right now. If he can get HD over the air (at least some channels for the time being) without hassling with paying for locals on satellite and having to play the "waiver" game, that would be a plus.

Dan

I have a question from a coworker who has an apartment w/ balcony on the first floor in Loveland. There is another building across the way that could create some line of sight/reflection problems.

What would be a decent, not hugely expensive (hopefully no more than $60-80) VHF/UHF antenna (she only would be relying on OTA signals for all her TV programs right now) that could be used temporarily attached to the balcony railing (meaning it can't be HUGE and take up a lot of space)? It must be able to pick up today's VHF reception for now and a strong UHF pick up in the future when she does get an HD decoder.

Whatever it is, it's gotta be better than the Terk silver sensor she has now, which still brings in a fairly fuzzy picture.

Would the new, fairly compact Winegard SquareShooter be the ticket for someone in Loveland with such an un-ideal location?

Thanks!

Dan

The Super Bowl pre-game is looking great on KGWN! The audio says DD, but seems like it's similar to past (no center channel and I'm not sure about the rear speakers).

Has KGWN ever broadcast the CBS 5.1 DD network feed for shows like CSI, etc. that are specifically mixed and broadcast in true 5.1?

How is the PQ? Some Denver stations seem to be really skimping on the bitrate of their HD channels with some as low as 12 Mb/sec!! We need them to keep a consistant maximum of 19.3 or artifact problems can occur frequently, especially on larger sets.

Any idea on those antenna questions?

Dan

KGWN PQ is great, D5.1 is not happing on my system. only L & R during the pre-game. Nothing from center or rears. My Marantz receiver shows all five channels firing.

Dan,

As far as I've noticed, KGWN has NEVER broadcast shows like CSI in HD, let alone DD 5.1 . The only HD I've seen them show was the playoffs the last two weeks and the state of the union address - all "live" shows. The word is they are still waiting for their Tivo to time delay the shows for an hour to get them adjusted for Mountain Time zone.

Well, the superbowl might not be in 5.1, but it's better than the poorly mixed signals that can cause all the sound to come out of the rear speakers. But the picture looks awesome, which is more important to me.

Got to say Having DirectV HDTV CBS is great - and it is 5.1 sound.
I do not have to worry about pixialization or sound dropouts from Cheyenee.

A4Short, how did you get it from DirecTV? Did you already have a waiver from KGWN?

Yes A4Short, please do tell. I ran out today and picked up a cheapo RCA antenna after reading some of the scientific reception results here for KGWN :) And after DirecTV refused to turn on 81 because KGWN says we need a stinking waiver. Were you able to get a waiver from them? Please let me know before I go trying to figure out how to rig up an antenna in my attic so I can pick up a couple of HD channels from WY or Denver.

Derek

I would not hold you breath on the waivers as Dish customers in your areas have been trying to get that waiver for years, including me. Longmont is the only place I have seen them go through we are too close to cheyennes DMA in northern colorado.

That royally p*sses me off! I live in Colorado, not Wyoming!!

Frickin' FCC and these damn waivers!!

Dan

Originally posted by Dan Hitchman
That royally p*sses me off! I live in Colorado, not Wyoming!!

Frickin' FCC and these damn waivers!!

Dan

Dan, I hear ya on that one.

Check out this link, its their DMA I never watched that station in analog. Even Dish sends us denver locals, what gives with that? Who's DMA are we up here? Seems KGWM is using our population base for their commercial revenue!!!

KGWN DMA (http://www.asktheexperts.org/kgwn/102967.html)

Stefan

That map is real interesting. From the looks of it I live right below the bottom of that circle of coverage. D* flipped on 81 no problem for me, yet we know of many in Denver/Boulder (even Highlands Ranch!) that were told they have to get a waiver.

I don't know how the OTA looked for the game, but the D* feed looked great. Not quite at HDnet level, but better than ESPN. Made the twelve people that came over for the game impressed. All the guys were amazed by the picture.

Good luck to all getting waivers this next week from our cowpoke friends up north.

The OTA picture looked great. I did get some pixelation, especially during
the 4th quarter, but my antenna is pointed south, so I don't get the
strongest signal from Cheyenne.

Originally posted by TheaterWizard
I would not hold you breath on the waivers as Dish customers in your areas have been trying to get that waiver for years, including me. Longmont is the only place I have seen them go through we are too close to cheyennes DMA in northern colorado.
Right. I was a subscriber several years ago when they first shut off CBS and FOX. ABC and NBC had no problem with us receiving out of market stations, and we still do. CBS has to be picky though. Aargh.

What has me curious is that A4Short got a waiver and it looks like he lives in Fort Collins. What gives?

The OTA picture of the super bowl from KGWN was great, though. Even with the antenna sitting up on top of my TV pointing towards Cheyenne. I did get pixellation as others reported. I attributed this to my suboptimal antenna placement. The sound on the local commercials was abysmal, though. And I didn't seem to be getting a proper 5.1 signal. Ended up sticking with the analog in DPL.

We were so excited when we realized that channel 81 was being broadcast to the "Denver" market. I had a brief flash of hope that the powers that be finally came to their senses and decided to let us choose for once. My hope was quickly squashed after talking to the DirecTV CSR.

Oh well, beaten by the man again.

Derek

You guys have convinced me to never buy DirectTV.. I'll use my saved money for a better/better OTA antenna, and maybe a rotor.

I did not have wavers - I do get the east and west coast feeds (SD) since 96' Primetime 24 I think was what it use to be called.

I should also mention that my brother in Rogers Ar also got the HDTV CBS feeds. He does not have local programing there.

Reggie

Originally posted by TheaterWizard
I would not hold you breath on the waivers as Dish customers in your areas have been trying to get that waiver for years, including me. Longmont is the only place I have seen them go through we are too close to cheyennes DMA in northern colorado.

For what it's worth, KGWN may be changing their tune on the waivers. I called them on Friday to request one and they said that they would process it for me. I called back today to check the status and I was told that the request for a waiver was granted and faxed to DirecTv on Monday. So I should have Ch. 81 soon (I was told it would take 3 business days).

I would just as soon watch KGWN, but until they go HD full time this is a good backup!

Here is a second on the corporation of KGWN. I just sent an e-mail to the GM requesting a waiver. Within 4 hours I received an email back from an Assistant asking me for more info, like address and my E* account number. She said, once she had that she would work on the paper work ASAP and FAX it to Dish. Today, I had a call from Dish on my answer machine confirming the waiver went through. I had to just call them so they knew I had the capability of receiving signals from 148 deg (which I can) and that I had HD ready hardware (which I do). Tonight when I got home, I had KCBS-HD. Picture great, sound is great. Thanks again to KGWN.

MKB,

Where in FC are you? How could KGWN give a waiver to one FC resident and not to another?

Is it possible to have a FC address and not be within the DMA??

I called in for a waiver (again) and will post how it goes.

Originally posted by jme5
MKB,

Where in FC are you? How could KGWN give a waiver to one FC resident and not to another?

Is it possible to have a FC address and not be within the DMA??

I called in for a waiver (again) and will post how it goes.

I am looking forward to hearing your results as I assume from your post you have tried before and been turned down. Can you post when you tried the last time?

Are you with DTV or Dish Network?

Thanks
Stefan

Well, well, well,

Got a call from Dish saying my waiver was all set. I have a SE Fort Collins address. I don't know what is different from the last two times I tried to get a waiver from KGWN. I did get a waiver from KCNC on the firsr try and first applied to KGWN for a waiver in September and then again about 6 weeks later - both times I requested a waiver for HD. FWIW, I had success when I dealt with the receptionist...

Dish said KGWN is good about waivers and you have to specify that you want it for HD.

Can't recall if I'm pointed to 61.5 or 148 though, but will find out when I get home.

Stefan - Thanks for the antenna install and the back feed work. Check is in the mail, it really is.

John
Fort Collins

Great news John,

Now that you will get CBS on Dish you can turn that antenna around, and go for some more of the Denver signals.

Glad the install was able to work out for the both of us, I am not worried about the check just yet......I do know where you live though. Hehehe....

Happy HD viewing,
Stefan

Just thought I would chime in and say that I too received a waiver from KGWN. I had initially sent the request to Joan Turner who forwarded it to a Lynne Hanks. She was very helpful and even mailed me a copy of the waiver in case I need it in the future. DirecTV had CBS turned on for me within a couple hours of faxing the waiver in to them.

ARrrgg. I was picking up channel 9 last night in HD OTA. Today I installed a rotor so I could swing my antenna around and pick up 5 from Cheyenne, and now 9 won't lock anymore.. Why can't anything be simple? My DTV light blinks but won't lock.. Maybe it's time for a Winegard HD9095P

Anyone have a good idea for a UHF antenna to at least pick up the Denver stations that we can in N. Colorado (and then Morrison and Lookout when and if those towers are up and at full power)?

The area in question which the antenna would go up is North Loveland on 1st Ave. fairly close to the foothills. My friends do have a problem with high winds every so often, so if that helps steer suggestions one way or the other... perhaps with the type of mast and supports needed too.

A rotor for picking up Cheyenne is not really necessary as they'll be getting CBS HD from DISH for the time being.

Thanks a bunch!

Dan

Now that I have my CM 4228 picking up the Denver stations, I want to add an antenna pointed up north for KGWN. Does anyone have the compass angle from Fort Collins (I'm in the SE part of town) to their tower? Is that the only Wyoming HD station one can get reception of in FortC?

Originally posted by Paul_D
Now that I have my CM 4228 picking up the Denver stations, I want to add an antenna pointed up north for KGWN. Does anyone have the compass angle from Fort Collins (I'm in the SE part of town) to their tower? Is that the only Wyoming HD station one can get reception of in FortC?

Paul,

353 degrees from your location will bring in KGWN. ABC is up there as well, but I have not seen any signal from that yet. check out anntenna web for more information.

I have combined two antenna's with a splitter right now and have some success, however you will loose some signal strength, an A/B switch would be best for two antenna's until they move to lookout in denver then we should have enough power to combine.

Stefan

Originally posted by Dan Hitchman
Anyone have a good idea for a UHF antenna to at least pick up the Denver stations that we can in N. Colorado (and then Morrison and Lookout when and if those towers are up and at full power)?

The area in question which the antenna would go up is North Loveland on 1st Ave. fairly close to the foothills. My friends do have a problem with high winds every so often, so if that helps steer suggestions one way or the other... perhaps with the type of mast and supports needed too.

A rotor for picking up Cheyenne is not really necessary as they'll be getting CBS HD from DISH for the time being.

Thanks a bunch!

Dan

Dan,

I have been using a Winegard HD9095p UHF only "Yagi" style antenna here in Windsor with success on most channels, it sure beats the old Radio Shack 96"er that I had up there before.

NBC seems to be great some nights and no lock others, not sure whats up with that one, but most others are fine. I even had channel 6 KMRA one night for a couple of hours, not much since then though. Kind of hit and miss up here for now.

Good luck,
Stefan

Originally posted by TheaterWizard
Paul,

353 degrees from your location will bring in KGWN. ABC is up there as well, but I have not seen any signal from that yet. check out anntenna web for more information.

I have combined two antenna's with a splitter right now and have some success, however you will loose some signal strength, an A/B switch would be best for two antenna's until they move to lookout in denver then we should have enough power to combine.

Stefan

Thanks for the compass direction. I plan on getting a bandpass filter for the KGWN antenna so that it limits interference with my Denver antenna. I should have enough signal strength (4228 + preamp) to handle the 3db of loss the CM joiner will add.

Originally posted by Dan Hitchman
Anyone have a good idea for a UHF antenna to at least pick up the Denver stations that we can in N. Colorado (and then Morrison and Lookout when and if those towers are up and at full power)?

The area in question which the antenna would go up is North Loveland on 1st Ave. fairly close to the foothills. My friends do have a problem with high winds every so often, so if that helps steer suggestions one way or the other... perhaps with the type of mast and supports needed too.

A rotor for picking up Cheyenne is not really necessary as they'll be getting CBS HD from DISH for the time being.

Thanks a bunch!

Dan

Dan,

I use a Channel Master 4228 8-bay bowtie and get all the Denver DT stations except KMGH (ABC). I generally get 80-90% signal strength on the low power Republic Plaza stations (CBS, NBC, PBS) on a Dishnetwork 6000. I'm west of Loveland, about 4 miles north of Hwy 34 off of Glade Road.

I'm using a regular tripod mount on my roof and have made lots of trips back up on the roof to re-aim after a good wind gust. I finally drilled a hole thru the tripod support and the mast to hold a bolt to keep it from twisting. Tripod and 10 foot mast were both from RadioShack.

Thanks a bunch! :) Am I right in thinking that a bow tie will get an overall better, stronger UHF signal than a Yagi, especially in FC and Loveland, or are there big trade-offs?

Keep those suggestions flowing!

Dan

Dan,

I'm currently using a channelmaster 3020 combo antenna, and can pick up
2, 5, 12, 21, 32 with a strong signal. I have a rotor , so I point north
to get 5.

I can only get channel 9 about 10% of the time.. I have a Channelmaster 4228 on order, and it should be on the roof sometime next week, I'm hoping that pulls in channel 9 all of the time, and maybe even PBS. I tried a mast mounted pre-amp and things got worse, there must be some strong UHF transmissions here in SW Fort Collins.

The other antenna I considered was the Winegard 9095 that Stefan mentioned. It has better gain numbers, but the cost was way more when you factor in price/shipping.
I was able to get the 4228 shipped for $15, the cheapest shipping I found on the 9095 was $40.00

My current Antenna is about 8.5 dB on channel UHF 16, the 4228 is a bit over 11. So that should be twice the effective power over my current setup. I would really like to get NBC consistantly in HD, will see what happens next week..

I'm in SW Fort Collins, by harmony/shields, and I have the antenna off a 2 story house, with a channelmaster rotor.

Anyone else have pixilation and dropouts with channel 5 from Cheyenne?
I get a really strong signal, but watching CSI tonight was bad.. Almost had
to resort to watching it in SD..

Also, I didn't think CSI looked very good, considering that it's supposed to be HD.. It looked very SDish to me. Maybe KGWN isn't passing the HD version?