http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=92872

So they are applying to move to ch 10 with a directional antenna?

Apparently. The idiots at aetn are VHF crazy.

Amazing they didn't put Ch 6 in Jonesboro and Mountain View... poor ch 19... that UHF transmitter must drive em crazy. I gave up on them, and watch PBS-HD on sat. Got a nice 6 foot dish, so hardly even any rain fade. ABC-HD comes in great too, Even found Fox Sports Net HD last night, all the baseball games, even one that was Blacked Out! on Directv which I paid for :)

From the Demo-zette: AETN has their ch 2 analog transmitter back on the air at 1000' from KASN's tower, at a taxpayer cost of $175,000... Their spokesperson said "It was the right thing to do" although not very economical...when asked about putting analog back up so close to the shutoff. While they couldn't estimate the number of viewers, the guestimate was a couple thousand. How much would it hve cost the state to just buy a couple thousand converter boxes? $100,000 !!! a $75,000 savings...If each box was subsidized through the converter program...$135,000 savings....

Your gubmint at work, doing what they do best. Squandering your money.

according to Engadget HD, all SEC football games this fall on Raycom Sports will be in HD. Wonder how that will look considering their fantastic SD broadcasts :rolleyes:

Anyone using Comcast's clearQAM signals to get locals in HD that way on your computers, this is a question for you. Have you lost the KLRT and KARK feeds? The ones that used to be labeled 5.1 and 13.1 when you scan? For some reason, they are gone from my GB-PVR and won't show up again when I rescan. I just wanna see if its just me or not.

Any of you local guys using sagetv or the hd media extender?

Anyone using Comcast's clearQAM signals to get locals in HD that way on your computers, this is a question for you. Have you lost the KLRT and KARK feeds? The ones that used to be labeled 5.1 and 13.1 when you scan? For some reason, they are gone from my GB-PVR and won't show up again when I rescan. I just wanna see if its just me or not.

I have noticed the same thing on regular HDTV cable inputs. Can we say OVERLY COMPRESSED comcastic! Most HDTV channels are becoming more and more pixelated and often simply absent in recent weeks. Will this need to compress the signals decrease if/when Comcast goes all digital and foregoes the analog transmissions?

I have noticed the same thing on regular HDTV cable inputs. Can we say OVERLY COMPRESSED comcastic! Most HDTV channels are becoming more and more pixelated and often simply absent in recent weeks. Will this need to compress the signals decrease if/when Comcast goes all digital and foregoes the analog transmissions?
Well, I think what you are talking about and what I am talking about are different maybe. Are you talking about just hooking your cable straight to the tv with no converter box and getting the clear channels that there are? If so, then ok, yeah, we are on the same page. :) I haven't noticed any more compression problems like pixelation lately. It has still looked about the same to me. I just noticed that I couldn't find those two channels anymore (well, and two of the constantly running trailers and maybe a couple of the clear on-demand channels that people around me sometimes watch, but those come in infrequently, so I don't know if they are gone or not). If I am not mistaken, they HAVE to transmit all the local channels in the clear according to the government. Some kind of rule (I am sure arxaw or someone can clarify this for me) says that they must transmit the locals in the clear for people with just the basic package to be able to tune it in. I am not entirely sure if it applies to the HD capable channels or not, but I would think so.

As far as your remark about "Will this need to compress the signals decrease if/when Comcast goes all digital and foregoes the analog transmissions?" makes me shake my head a little. Its just another example of the average consumer having NO idea what the switch away from analog really means. It ONLY applies to Over-The-Air transmissions. Cable companies do NOT have to get rid of their "analog" signals (at least not yet unless they really want to in order to force customers to higher priced packages for the same stuff they already get). Since their signals go over cables and not over the air, it is not subject to the same rules regarding the ceasing of analog transmissions as if you had an antenna on your house.

So, with that said, its not necessary to worry about them ceasing "analog" transmissions as that isn't necessary. It's exactly like getting "analog" channels off of satellite. They are still on a proprietary (in the means of the signal getting to your house) format and are not subjected to the Feb 17, 2009 cut off date.

Damn I wish the frackin government would come out and give a complete and full explanation of all this analog shut-off bullcrap in like a television special or in a book or in movie theater prior to movies or something to help all the thousands of confused people out there understand what is going to happen. (Not saying you are one of them gtsouheaver, just meaning in general.)

... something to help all the thousands of confused people out there understand what is going to happen. This article is a perfect example of how the press is only adding to the confusion:
"So long, antennas; here’s digital TV" (http://www.sanluisobispo.com/business/story/388253.html)

.
ACK!

I hope KARK and KLRT are back when my laptop gets back from being fixed...

Other than the misleading title, the information was pretty accurate in the article.

True. But people just scanning headlines can easily get the wrong message about the future of OTA TV. This isn't the first headline I've seen talking about the demise of "antennas." It's like it was written by a cableco or big box store employee.

The ABC affiliate in Ft Smith/Fayetteville did a "DTV Test" yesterday on their 5 & 6pm newscasts. I didn't see it, but I heard they interrupted the analog channel briefly during both newscasts and told viewers if they were watching with an antenna and the picture went away, their TV is not DTV ready. I think all stations should be doing that, or running crawls on their analog channels saying "if you see this message, your TV may not be DTV ready."

That "DTV Test" really wasn't a very good gauge. How many people do you know that have a set capable of digital reception still watch the regular analog version off their antennas? Sure, turning off the analog portion temporarily is a good idea, but even people with a digital set that don't have it on the digital channel, or have very weak reception of it, will think that they don't have the right kind of TV or something.

My in-laws have a brand new philips lcd that has all the bells and whistles on it, but they don't watch any digital OTA broadcasts because "they can't see the difference" even though I have told them time and again and even showed them how much better digital looks and is and how it is FREE. If they would use OTA signals and not subscribe to conwaycorp cable they might be a little more receptive even though I doubt it. Hell, they will NOT even get the HD service from conwaycorp because they don't think they will see a difference. So, in a case like with them, they would just be confused and be asking a million questions and making me fix it (because they don't know jack. lol). They are just dumb when it comes to how good digital tv looks.

There are thousands of people just like that. That "DTV Test" just isn't a real good test in my opinion. As far as the running of crawls, all the stations run a crawl or a commercial or something from what I have been able to see. The only problem is that they don't do it ONLY on the analog channel. They just blast it across every transmitter they got without making only on analog. That to me just isn't smart. You don't want to annoy everyone with it, only annoy and make it real obvious to the people who NEED to know about it. That would require the stations get equipment like KTHV has where they can put different stuff on the digital channel than the analog channel (like with their HD weather map stuff during bad weather). If these stations would figure out how to divide their output to target a specific transmitter like that, then we would be a LOT closer to getting this fixed.

You can continue to bitch about how you can't get perfect reception indoors all you want - the original coverage specs from the 50's of Grade A and Grade B (what todays coverage maps and DTV's "duplicate current coverage" maps are derived from) are calculated for an outdoor antenna 30 feet up. The marketing of Digital TV as "just put up a coat-hanger in your basement - no problem" is now and always has been stupid and wrong.

*I* didn't believe it - did you?

If you get a good signal indoors, you're lucky.

If you don't, that's your problem. The "delivery system" broadcasters are tasked to provide ends at 20-30 feet above your house, in the open air. When you send in your subscription fee to the local affiliates, you can request that change.

Oh, hang on - it's *free*.

Bummer for you.

Cheap

:)

You can continue to bitch about how you can't get perfect reception indoors all you want - the original coverage specs from the 50's of Grade A and Grade B (what todays coverage maps and DTV's "duplicate current coverage" maps are derived from) are calculated for an outdoor antenna 30 feet up. The marketing of Digital TV as "just put up a coat-hanger in your basement - no problem" is now and always has been stupid and wrong.

*I* didn't believe it - did you?

If you get a good signal indoors, you're lucky.

If you don't, that's your problem. The "delivery system" broadcasters are tasked to provide ends at 20-30 feet above your house, in the open air. When you send in your subscription fee to the local affiliates, you can request that change.

Oh, hang on - it's *free*.

Bummer for you.

Cheap
Look, jack, not once has anyone "bitched" about indoor reception in any of the past few posts. The only time I have "bitched" about poor indoor reception within the past month or so is when something changed with the transmission pattern of KTHV, but that was quickly and easily fixed.

The only thing remotely close to what you are accusing me of saying is when I said that the stations simply turning off the analog portion of their transmission and telling people if they lose their signal, they don't have the right type of tv just was not a very good test. I was merely saying that just because a person has a digital tv does not mean they use it to watch the channel in digital. So, just by what I can gather by the little bit that arxaw said about it, it appears to me that it makes the "DTV test" by that station moot and useless.

Now, where in all of that has there been any "bitching" of my not being able to receive digital signals indoors well? It has not happened. Plain and simple.

So, if you want to come in here and jump my ass about stuff I have said, get your biological waste in a linear configuration and kiss my ass. I don't need you berating me over stuff that I have not even said. Keep your opinions and conversations about HD TV or digital tv reception or whatever to the Kansas forum where they might be a little more appreciated. I just do NOT need you coming in here and belittling me when I have done nothing wrong.

http://i25.tinypic.com/2zoivk4.gif

Steveken: Well, once this driver downloads (2.5 hrs on dialup), Ill let you know how HD looks on this GeForce 8500GT I got on sale for $69... I couldn't get the onboard video to play HD reliably, so took your advice and got a PCI-E add on card, and got a 512MB one just to be sure hahaha. Only took me two days of phone calls to confirm my computer had a X16 slot and find HD drivers for XP.

Wow, thats a pretty good price I would think. I have the GeForce 8400 GS in my machine. I think it might have only 256MB of ram on it, but it does a bang up job on HD video when I am not running Folding@home on it. Even then its still pretty good.

If you would have given me some specs or a model number of the machine or something I could have probably told you if your board would support that card, but you learned stuff in the process, so good for you. :) I always say a good computer user is one who knows WAY too much about his system (and sometimes if he breaks it in the process so he can fix it, lol).

I hope it does good for you. It should with the default drivers I think....can't remember what OS you have on it, so I can't say for certain. I should probably look for current drivers for mine as well. I haven't updated in quite some time. Let me know how it goes.

Well, I didn't install the drivers from the CD, downloaded drivers from Nvidia's site. Card is actually a EVGA brand of the GEForce. Box said it needed two power connectors and a 400w power supply, but card had no power connectors, so plugged it into my 350w supply w/2 dvd's and 2/7200 rpm drives, no other cards...Ran ok. Removed ATI software, set bios to boot from PCI-E external rather than internal, and loaded drivers.

First problem, ati drivers let me set the res as 1920x1080p, highest this card seems to accept is 1440x1200. I can manually enter 1080p, but it doesn't do anything. Doesn't seem to affect video playback, just makes the screen stretchy looking on the desktop.

CPU playing HD video 1280x720p with Arcsoft is 8%. With Sage, 75%....hmmm. Have to try other decoders, apparently the current one (PowerDVD's) does support hardware accelleration.

Live HD TV is 50% from Arcsoft viewing from the Atsc tuner stick, but 90% from the HD-PVR.

Will play with it more tomorrow. Right now I'm watching my HD capture of Disturbia...amazing...
Never thought I'd see an affordable consumer PVR that recorded YPrPb in HD...but it works, and works GREAT.

Wanna hear something cool? I just tried a test with my HVR-1600 card. I put a regular antenna on the NTSC side and cable into the ATSC/QAM side. I then started up Media Center, set it up to get OTA NTSC channels, started up channel 11, then went over to GB-PVR and started it up showing channel 11. Turns out this really is a dual tuner card. I have now got both inputs showing at the same time. Guess that can be pretty handy if you have good signals going into both.

Might try splitting off my cable modem feed to put it into the NTSC side to get that signal without degrading my QAM side. I had always wondered if you could get two feeds going at once on this. I wonder now if there would be a way to get Windows Media Center to record from both sides at once or if it would only recognize one at a time. And I wonder if you could get GB-PVR to do the same.

Oh, thats something else, the Vista Media Center evidently has problems getting guide data sometimes. I kept on and kept on getting the error 13 code when trying to get it. Turns out that if you have McAfee's Privacy Service going, that can cause a problem. Also, if you haven't got the time update part of Vista going where it gets the time from the Internet automatically, it will cause the guide data from not being able to be downloaded. Anyway, just thought I would throw that out there.

Well, I didn't install the drivers from the CD, downloaded drivers from Nvidia's site. Card is actually a EVGA brand of the GEForce. Box said it needed two power connectors and a 400w power supply, but card had no power connectors, so plugged it into my 350w supply w/2 dvd's and 2/7200 rpm drives, no other cards...Ran ok. Removed ATI software, set bios to boot from PCI-E external rather than internal, and loaded drivers.

Yeah, there are a LOT of different brands. Nvidia doesn't really make a card themselves IIRC. They only license the chip out to different companies.

The card needs two power sources, one from the board, one that you plug in to the back of the card. It won't have an actual power cord on it. Instead, you should find a white male plug like you would find on a y-connector or on the backs of drives.

Now, to warn you about the power supply requirements. It REALLY needs that much power. I have a 6600 AGP card in an older computer with a probably 350 watt PSU. It starts crashing on me occasionally if I have too many devices plugged in. By crashing, I mean it will occasionally lock itself up or just reboot from out of nowhere. It could be that the PSU is old, I dunno. So, just beware, you MIGHT need to unplug like one of those dvd's or get a bigger PSU for that system. I am betting you will need it.

First problem, ati drivers let me set the res as 1920x1080p, highest this card seems to accept is 1440x1200. I can manually enter 1080p, but it doesn't do anything. Doesn't seem to affect video playback, just makes the screen stretchy looking on the desktop.

On this, the highest the card accepts is 1440x1200 because that is what your monitor is capable of going to. They can detect that kinda thing automatically by communicating with the monitor. The card can probably go higher than that, dunno, not real familiar with it, but I wouldn't be worried about the highest it will accept. Its just what your monitor likes.

CPU playing HD video 1280x720p with Arcsoft is 8%. With Sage, 75%....hmmm. Have to try other decoders, apparently the current one (PowerDVD's) does support hardware accelleration.

Live HD TV is 50% from Arcsoft viewing from the Atsc tuner stick, but 90% from the HD-PVR.

Thats not too bad. Sage and other software programs for HD capture/playback tend to eat up CPU cycles. Thats unfortunately happens. They don't optimize the code real well I don't think. Maybe its what the decoders are good at. I don't usually do a lot of playing with them, instead just stick to a decoder that works. Live HD TV sucks up a LOT of horsepower if you have an older system. You have to have a pretty beefy one if you want it to have spare cycles to do other stuff.

Will play with it more tomorrow. Right now I'm watching my HD capture of Disturbia...amazing...
Never thought I'd see an affordable consumer PVR that recorded YPrPb in HD...but it works, and works GREAT.

Glad its working for you. Its amazing what a little thing like a video card will do for you. :)

In regards to my wondering if you can get GB-PVR to record from both inputs on the HVR-1600, turns out yes you can. I have it recording (fuzzy) OTA channel 11 AND PBS-HD at the same time. Too fricken cool!

That's what the monitor reports to the card, yes...but on the Ati I could overide and enter 1920x1080 60hz, and the monitor would pop up "1080p" in the info box. This card apparently is blocking that since the monitor isn't telling it that it can, in fact, do 1080p. Ill work on that.
I've also read where others are not getting hardware decoding with Sage, so will read up on what those that got it working did.

In any event, this peticular card didn't come with any external power plugs or jacks...It has a Svideo jack, a VGA jack, and a DVI, and a DVI to RGB breakout cable, and a DVI to VGA adapter. Nothing on card or on back to plug in any other power... Will upgrade PS if I notice anything weird.

The media extender will be here tomorrow. Its like Sage (or gb-pvr), but instead on running on a computer, it just plugs into the network, and hdmi to the monitor, and does everything media center does, without the computer...will see. I actually got it for this main tv, but if this video card works out, Ill use the extender on my bedroom 720p tv. Will let me watch my living room dvr in the bedroom if it works.

I don't think Nvidia chipsets will let you override the max settings (unless you do some tweaking in areas they don't expect you to). You are pretty well stuck at what it shows (again, unless you go tweak which isn't hard to do). I think hardware decoding is always tricky unless you use the software that came with the card.

Well, on the card I have (the 6600), the white power connector for the extra power is not on the back back of the card, but rather on the back of the card as you are looking at it inside the case. More towards the middle of the case like where the hard drives are. Its just a white, four-pin molex power connector. I would find it VERY odd if it didn't have one of those on the card itself because I know it would DEFINITELY need it (plus, it says so in the documentation for the card. :) ).

Well, take that back, it might NOT need two. I just had my new HP computer open the other day to pull out the HVR-1800 to send it in for an RMA, and I pulled out my 8400GS to be able to get around. It didn't have a second power connection on it. Now, it could be that that particular card didn't need it (its probably a scaled down version), OR it could be that the PCI-E port provides enough power on its slot. I haven't done enough reading up on PCI-E slots to know for sure. In any case, as long as the darned thing is working, let it be and don't worry if you can't find another power plug I guess. *shrug*

I would like to have a media extender, well a real one anyway. The XBOX 360 I have is a media extender of sorts, just with the Microsoft written Windows Media Center stuff on it.

Which specific one did you get? I don't know of all the different types out there, but the ones I have seen work only with Windows Media Center and look just like it on the tv its hooked up to. I have seen a couple of others with some proprietary software that hook up to shared folders on your network and such, but I don't know a lot about them. I know mostly about the Microsoft software based ones.

They work really well. Especially if they are hard wired to the network. Mine goes across an ethernet bridge over to wireless and it just doesn't do too good of a job on HD stuff, especially live HD, but then again that could be because of my crappy router or the place where I have it positioned. I think WiFi suffers from a lot of the stuff digital OTA suffers from. Works on one wall in a room, but not on the other. LOL.

The one I got is the STX-HD100 at www.sagetv.com. It uses Sagetv as its server. Very easy to navigate the server program. Also has software clients if you have the horsepower. The total price for the server/client, and the hardware client was $250, and no DRM to worry about like Microsoft BS.

I never liked sage much because I could never figure out how to get it to show all my other directories with videos in it or music directories. It just didn't seem too user friendly as to let you do that. I have videos all across my hard drives and on different machines. I want to be able to access them where they lay instead of trying to move it all to one central place. Have they changed it where you can do that?

Yea. You select "add import directory" from the menu, navigate to where it is, either drive letter or on the network, hit "select current directory" and it pops up check boxes for video, music, and photos. You can use one, two, or all three choices. I've added all my DVD directories on the network hard drive, as well as music, photo and video files on the server. It plays HD video great even from my usb external drive. Live video from the hauppauge astc hd tuner is flawless, and it EVEN FOUND 11-1 :) Give it a whirl, the trial is like 20 days. Its so fricken cool being able to navigate my whole media library with a remote. I disconnected the HR20 from the network. Screw their half assed mediashare attepts...This Sage kicks butt. Might get a second one for the bedroom. Also thought it would work good for you, as you could hook one cheap computer hooked to a good outside antenna and watch it anywhere you have a network cable.

Hmm, well, I downloaded it. So far its not seeing anything at all when I scroll down and choose network when I am adding directories.

And for some reason the placeshifter and client are not seeing the server from my Mac to my Vista machine where the server is installed. I have everything set up just like it says its supposed to be, the server is running, the service is running, but yet neither of the apps are able to connect to it. Turned off the firewall, rebooted, etc.

Oh, and I can't get it to scan and pick up any QAM channels either.

EDIT!! K, nevermind, figured this placeshifter one out. I have the virtual pc software installed on the vista machine and this stupid sage software was trying to use it. There is no way to tell sage to use a different network adapter, so I had to disable it to get it to work. Oh well. Now for the rest. And it fixed the network part. Just wish I could get my Windows boxes to be able to connect to my Mac's. They just broke for some reason awhile back and I haven't been able to get them back yet.

Did you download placeshifter or the sagetv server? I downloaded the sagetv server. When I click on network, it pops up the network name "workgroup" in my case. I click on it, and it shows the two machines on the network. Do your network machines have the announce flag set? You have the firewall open for the ports it uses? I don't know anyhing about vista, but if the machine sagetv is running on can see the network, the program should as well.

On another note, the main reason I refuse to upgrade to vista, is that I spent 6 hrs at my bosses house trying to get his daughters XP machines and his Vista machine to see each other. xP could see vista but vista wouldn't see xp, never did get it working. Wanted us to download stuff from Microsoft, always asked if you ran a program every time you ran it. Pissed me off. Ill never buy it.

Oh, I guess I didn't hit refresh each time I edited the post. I downloaded all three. I know what the differences are between them. Not the first time I have run client-server stuff. :) I got all of it fixed except the stupid ass QAM tuning.

About your other note, most of the time its a fairly easy fix to get xp and vista to work together. It's often a silly little thing and you don't realize it till you search on google for the solution, other times it can be a bitch. I have been using Vista for a long long time now (read early beta) and just don't understand why all these people bitch and complain about it. It is NOT a bad operating system, just you have to relearn how to do things in it to get the job done. It can be convoluted at times, but overall its a pretty good OS. The only real issues with it in general are its Networking problems. They just didn't do a real good job with it. That is really the only area where I have had problems with it at all.

And as far as the stupid thing asking you to confirm or cancel each time, that is EASY to get rid of. That's the UAC (User Account Control). All you have to do is go into the User Accounts area of the Control Panel and simply disable it. It is a good idea for what it can do, but it just goes way too far overboard. It can be a real hassle, but if you are a new computer user, it can also save your ass.

Sounds good. Ill pass that on to my boss on how to disable that.

XP has the easiest networking...cant imagine why Microsoft would have made Vista such a pain. I have to laugh, this thing maps the channels with their actual channel i.e. 5.1, 12.1, etc. That should confuse some people. Virtual channel numbers were a bad idea from the start tho, IMHO.

I have to laugh, this thing maps the channels with their actual channel i.e. 5.1, 12.1, etc. That should confuse some people. Virtual channel numbers were a bad idea from the start tho, IMHO.
You mean for OTA channels? I am beginning to think sage can't do QAM like it says it can. Every time I try to do it, it locks up (the program does), or something else happens. The one time I got it to scan through, it found channels, but didn't say that it did. And it just zoomed through the ones from like 107 on up without even trying. I think it just isn't supposed to or something.

I don't have cable, so have no way to test mine on QAM. The ATSC worked, just didn't remap. Wish it had an option to get program guide from station psip, rather than zap2it.

Hauppauge should get my HVR-1800 tomorrow, so hopefully they will get a replacement sent out to me shortly. I sent it in for an RMA because it wouldn't get ANY QAM channels at all, not even a blip of a signal. The analog part and the OTA HD part worked just fine, but the board said and the site said that it was supposed to do QAM too, but it didn't. I sure hope the new one does right. It makes me nervous when I have to send my part back first to get a replacement.

AETN has applied for power increases on almost all of their DTV channels across the state. Most are applications to roughly double power.
KETZ-DT
KTEJ-DT (application for 800% power increase)
KETG-DT
KAFT-DT
KEMV-DT (application to triple power)

KETS-DT 7 not included.

Another station applying to double power is KFSM-DT 18 (CBS) in Ft. Smith. This may help it reach of some of their analog viewers who currently can't get it digitally, because their DTV and NTSC towers are in different locations.

They could up their power to 100kw and I wouldn't watch em...No HD...multicasting seems more important to em. Ill stick with PBS-HD.

@Davenlr:

Sad but true. I wish they had allocated at least 1 half-way decent continuous HD channel (maybe even just a copy of PBS-HD)...but sadly they didn't. I wouldn't even expect pristine HD. I know they have use for the 4 channels but it seems to me they could have done an HD-Lite-Lite on 1 of them. Kind of like KWBF or KATV on real channel 44. Of course if they had of done that they would probably stretch everything SD to HD like KWBF (that sucks).

There just ain't no pleasing some of us folks.

dmatch

I'm real pleased. PBS-HD is the best quality HD I've seen anywhere except the FullHD Hubblecasts downloaded off the net in 1080p. Just had to spend the money to get it, but the side benefits are great... Like I got to watch the College Playoff game yesterday in HD while everyone else was stuck watching it on ESPN Classic. ABC-HD is full bitrate...
Steveken downloads his off the net. Lots of options these days for those of us who aren't happy with what is being crammed down our throats.

That game (College World Series) was great. Not "everyone else" was stuck watching it on ESPN Classic. There was a backhaul on Galaxy 25 C-band in HD that I was watching sans commercials. Today's game was disappointing for Fresno State fans but it was a good game nonetheless.

dmatch

The C band feed was what I was watching. What receiver you use? I got a Pansat 9200HD and a 6' with a C/Ku feed. Watched it tonight too, when the audio cut out and ESPN2 had to switch to the SD feed, I just kept watching the HD feed and used the audio from the Directv channel.

I use a computer (P4 3 GHz) with Twinhan 1020a PCI card and DVBDream for HD from a C/Ku 7.5' dish. I lost the audio too on the G25 feed. I noticed some really bad audio for a few minutes and then it cleared up only to go away completely. I had thought it was a switch to Dolby-E. So you think it was an audio crash and not a switch to Dolby-E?

Speaking of Dolby-E (new technology), it sure is getting hard to keep up with all the flavors of DVB technology lately. Looks like we will encounter more DVB-S2 and or 8SPK for a lot more feeds soon. Do you have the option board for your Pansat 9200 HD?

I understand that 8PSK can be really hard (even if possible to do) on a dish smaller than 10-12'.

dmatch

...I wouldn't even expect pristine HD. I know they have use for the 4 channels but it seems to me they could have done an HD-Lite-Lite on 1 of them... No way. Not with a total of 4 sub channels. Unless you like looking at blocking. Ozarks public tv in MO does a "720p" downrez'd channel of the pbs-1080i feed, plus 2 add'l sub channels. Most of the time, it looks like sub-DVD quality or worse if theres a lot of movement.

At least AETN does HD right when they do it.

With their 800% power increase at KTEJ-DT (UHF 20), it looks like Jboro will end up with the best AETN DTV station in the state.

Depends how much they compress the SD.

Up here, WBRA-DT does a 1080i HD with two SD feeds, but I figure that they could greatly improve the quality on the 1080i if they dropped the resolution on the SD feeds. WTTW in Chicago does only 352x480i on three SD subchannels, to go with the one in HD (720p). I imagine that uses the same or less bandwidth as two SD feeds at 704x480i.

Just my thoughts on the matter...

- Trip

That's really a good idea...anyone watching SD doesn't need anything higher than 352x480i. Wonder how much bandwidth that leaves for the HD channel? I noticed here, archiving the same movie (1hr 55min) with both 720p and 1080i results in a 3.2gb 720p file and a 4.7gb 1080i file...but AETN is gonna run 4 channels. I gave up hoping for Nova in HD, and lately, even Nature has been SD. Not gonna watch it. Looks like crap, even when upconverted. It was well worth the $700 investment for free HD.

Dmatch: haven't heard of dolby-e. My 9200hd does not have the board yet. When I start seeing somethings posted on Rick's wild feed site that uses it, Ill probably add it in. I don't see any reason you would need a bigger dish, unless they run 8psk at low power levels.

Does your Twinhan do 4:2:2? I used to have one and never could watch a whole show without the software locking up, but that was back in 2000. I'd like to pick up a computer based card or usb stick for dvb, that will do 4:2:2 though.

Does your Twinhan do 4:2:2? I used to have one and never could watch a whole show without the software locking up, but that was back in 2000. I'd like to pick up a computer based card or usb stick for dvb, that will do 4:2:2 though.
The short answer is YES. I don't believe the Twinhan tuner decodes the video or the audio. Those functions are done by the codecs installed in the system. The Twinhan 1020a and the appropriate codecs will do about anything that is DVB-S QSPK so long as the computer can handle it (CPU Speed/Memory). The only codec that I have that will do 4:2:2 is Elecard. It seems to be somewhat of a CPU hog.

I have a Pentium 4 3.0 GHz CPU with L2 cache, 512 MB memory, and NVidia Geforce 6600. It will barely do 4:2:2 HD at a 32365 symbol rate and is pushing very near 100% CPU usage even with me running no other apps.

I believe software has improved quite a lot since 2000 but the programs I have tried are still a little quirky and have some aggravating bugs, but I have not had crashes very often. DVBDream, the program I am currently using, gives me no more trouble than the Pansat 2700a that I also have, but don't use much anymore. I have tried ProgDVB, DVBDream and MyTheatre.

RE Dolby-E: Yet another flavor of Dolby Digital audio encoding about which I know very little. Many, if not all, of the CBS golf feeds this year have been Dolby-E. Currently, all that will recognize/decode it, so far as I know, is commercial equipment.

I also had a Twinhan Starbox USB (not the II version) for a while. After much trouble, that was finally solved by upgrading Video card drivers, I got it working but I don't believe it was quite as sensitive as the 1020a. Since I did not having the 2 devices locking feeds simultaneously I can't say that for sure.

dmatch

Wow. I have a Athlon64 2.2Ghz and a Nvidia 8500GT, so if its giving you 100%, it sure won't work on mine. Guess Ill just skip 4:2:2 for now. Can't for the life of me remember what I was using in 2000, but the SD 4:2:2 video worked ok on a AMD 1.2 GHz with a AGP Matrox Millenium. Are you talking about HD or SD?

Damn this is a good ballgame...

I was describing the largest symbol rate (32365) 4:2:2 HD feed that I have locked with my system. I didn't mean to make you think that anything less than my system would not be worth trying.

Most 4:2:2 feeds that I have seen are SD with symbol rates around 7000-15000. Those are easier on the CPU and usually run around 50-70% usage (Elecard codec on my system). By far most of the high symbol rate (~30000) HD feeds that I watch or have seen are not 4:2:2. For 4:2:0 HD feeds I will switch to a more efficient codec such as Cyberlink or Intervideo which usually run from 30-70% depending on the codec (Intervideo is most efficient one that I have).

On top of that there are all kinds of feeds that don't even make the CPU grunt. For instance the PBS-HD feed runs only around 15-30% CPU usage (if I recall correctly).

However, if the Athlon 64 2.2 Ghz is a single core processor (I think it is), it might be all it could do to handle that G25 CWS feed we were discussing (HD 29270 symbol rate) with an efficient codec like intervideo. But I don't know that and am just guessing.

dmatch

I'm using a Hauppage HD card (ATSC) and the codec (arcsoft) uses 5% cpu using overlay mode and video card hardware decoding offload. I don't know how the symbol rate compares to ATSC bitrate. Does the card come with the codecs, or do I need to buy the 4:2:2 codec? I don't have elecard installed on my system. Wondering if it will work with my sage hd extender...it will handle the video if it has the codec. Ill have to check up on that. That would be the way to go.

The codecs do not come with the cards. They are separate. They don't even come with the software that I have tried. I was using a free 4:2:2 capable Elecard codec with a small watermark in one corner (smaller than a TV logo) that was installed with ProgDVB (I only installed ProgDVB to get Elecard). Elecard will also do everything else that I require but it is a bit of a CPU hog. If you were to get free Elecard with ProgDVB and didn't like the watermark then you could buy Elecard.

You may already have other codecs. For instance, Cyberlink PowerDVD (I think I got it with an LG DVD burner) installs the Cyberlink codec set, so if you have it you probably already have this codec. WinDVD installs the Intervideo codec set so you will have that if you have WinDVD. My Windows MCE 2005 system came with WinDVD so I already had this.

Oh, and BTW, DVBDream will stream to Videolan VLC (free open-source) and do all of this with its internal codecs. However, that might require a little more CPU usage. I am not sure about that.

Edit to add: ffdshow is also a free set of codecs that will do all but 4:2:2 video.

dmatch

That's really a good idea...anyone watching SD doesn't need anything higher than 352x480i. Wonder how much bandwidth that leaves for the HD channel? I noticed here, archiving the same movie (1hr 55min) with both 720p and 1080i results in a 3.2gb 720p file and a 4.7gb 1080i file...but AETN is gonna run 4 channels. I gave up hoping for Nova in HD, and lately, even Nature has been SD. Not gonna watch it. Looks like crap, even when upconverted. It was well worth the $700 investment for free HD.
LOL, $700 for FREE HD. Its funny, but I know what you mean. I get my NOVA in HD every Tuesday thanks to Comcasts PBS-HD in clearQAM. I haven't watched Nature, so I don't know if I would like it or not.

I have a Pentium 4 3.0 GHz CPU with L2 cache, 512 MB memory, and NVidia Geforce 6600. It will barely do 4:2:2 HD at a 32365 symbol rate and is pushing very near 100% CPU usage even with me running no other apps.

You can fix that problem with more ram. A system spec'd like that shouldn't be having issues with HD except for the lack of ram is killing you.

I'd really need to know the video format for 4:2:2 to find out if its supported by the media extender. The supported codecs are Mpeg1/2, Mpeg-4,ASP,H.264, and WMV9...plus it will transcode others. Ill need to search the sage forum for more info. They list the Twinhan Visionplus as compatable, but don't specify if its totally compatable. They also said any card with, I think the term was BDA drivers, will work??
No biggie right now, cuz I can watch/record from the Pansat in 1080i, but 4:2:2 HD would be nice if available for <$100...

@steveken:

While the CPU usage is near 100%, on the occasional 4:2:2 HD feed, the Physical Memory used, as reported by Task Manager, has been below about half of what is available, if I recall correctly.

Would that seem to indicate that it was not memory limited? Would you still recommend more memory.

dmatch

@Davenlr:
There sure are a lot of steep learning curves out there nowadays. Curves almost as steep as the hill that Georgia is going to have to climb to win this one (CWS game that is).

As you said, wow what a game!

dmatch

@Davenlr:

FWIW, Twinhan drivers can be found here (including BDA drivers):

http://www.twinhan.com/download_driver&software.asp

You could look and see if one is available for your particular Twinhan product.

dmatch

Steveken: Its not just PBS-HD...I also get MyNetwork HD, ABC-HD, 3 to 6 FSN HD Baseball games, Live Nascar events in HD... All these feeds are commercial free, which is great...Nascar races where you see the action live, not in replays between commercial breaks :)

Dmatch: 1GB memory for XP, or Vista will dramatically speed up your machine. Granted, if you are just running one app, it might not be real dramatic. Sounds to me like your codec isn't offloading your mpeg2 to your video card, but I'd have no idea how to fix it, since it sounds like that codec is the only one that supports 4:2:2 HD... Hence my wanting to let the media extender handle the video, cuz if your system pegs at 100, mine will too...It was at 100 just playing a HD preview window until Steveken suggested adding a Nvidia card to replace my motherboards video. Went from 100% to 5%. I have powerdvd, but not the newest version that added hardware decoding offload. Arcsoft does, Ill see if I can find out if that codec might work for you.

Do me a favor, tune in a high symbol rate 4:2:2 broadcast, and minimize the window, and tell me what the cpu usage is...that will tell me how much cpu the card and driver need to pass the video to a media extender or network.

@steveken:

While the CPU usage is near 100%, on the occasional 4:2:2 HD feed, the Physical Memory used, as reported by Task Manager, has been below about half of what is available, if I recall correctly.

Would that seem to indicate that it was not memory limited? Would you still recommend more memory.

dmatch
I would always recommend anyone get at minimum 1GB of RAM in their system if you are running XP or above. 512 just is not enough to make the system perform very well. I am willing to bet, though, that you are using close to all your RAM if the CPU is pegging at 100. When you peg out the CPU, it usually just starts dumping stuff into RAM trying to get it to handle the data in the interim until the CPU frees up for the next flow.

But, as Dave said, it could be that your codec isn't off-loading the data to your tuner card, or even your video card, to get the work done. It could be doing it all software based. I would check your settings and see if there isn't some kinda way to put it hardware based or maybe find a better codec. There are so many out there now that there is no reason you shouldn't be able to find one to treat your system better.

Just found this page... answers every question about dvb, mpeg formats, and digital sats. Very cool reading.

http://www.coolstf.com/mpeg/

At least AETN does HD right when they do it.A couple of questions. How much HD does AETN do? And what does it take to be eligible for the DTV PBS HD channel? I am not eligible for national SD or HD stations.

A couple of questions. How much HD does AETN do? And what does it take to be eligible for the DTV PBS HD channel? I am not eligible for national SD or HD stations.AETN's HD program schedule is here:
http://www.aetn.org/production/whatson2
Also, if you tune to sub channels -2 -3 or -4 in the evening and they are off, AETN is probably doing HD on the -1 sub channel.

By meaning "eligible" for DTV are you referring to Over the Air Digital TV or DirecTV (abbreviated on AVSForum as "D*")? If you mean D*, there will be no eligibility requirements when PBS HD becomes available. The only requirement is that you have not opted out of receiving local channels from D*.

Do me a favor, tune in a high symbol rate 4:2:2 broadcast, and minimize the window, and tell me what the cpu usage is...that will tell me how much cpu the card and driver need to pass the video to a media extender or network.
Easier said than done. I haven't even tuned a 4:2:2 HD signal in a couple of months. There just aren't that many to be found, at least from my experience. Most HD that I run across or watch are 4:2:0.

Perhaps this will help:

DVBDream has a "Renderless Mode" that does not display Video or Audio and is for use when streaming to a network. In renderless mode while on PBS-HD and sending an 18 Mb/s stream the CPU usage was from 1-5%. Using the Elecard codec (least efficient codec I have) the CPU usage when rendering was 50-70%. Cyberlink was about 40-60%. Neither are using hardware acceleration (see below). With hardware acceleration Cyberlink was about 10-30%.


Sounds to me like your codec isn't offloading your mpeg2 to your video card

Actually, you are correct. This is one of those quirky/buggy things I was referring to about using DVB applications. For some reason whenever I select to use hardware acceleration in the Elecard setup dialog in DVBDream it immediately turns it off when I "Apply" it. So I can't use hardware acceleration for some reason. Judging from about 1/2 the CPU usage that I see on other codecs when applying hardware acceleration I would imagine these high bitrate 4:2:2 HD feeds would run more like 50% if I could use acceleration.

Also, the other CPU usages I was citing in previous posts are without the hardware acceleration. I am not using it at all because even when I am able to use hardware acceleration the picture quality is reduced. For instance, I can cut CPU usage dramatically when I do hardware acceleration with Cyberlink, but then the picture gets a little jerky and that is very irritating to me. Using acceleration on Intervideo causes the picture to look like it has been put together with tiny little zippers (has jaggies) during motion. Not terrible but still irritates me.

Now that you got me messing with these codecs and settings again I recall the high level of frustration when trying to find the right settings for good quality video. At least with receivers you don't have a lot of settings to mess with. You get what you get.

Anyway, hope this helps.

dmatch

Yea, that helps. See if you can find a demo for Arcsoft, and see if that works with your dvb. Picture on mine with that codec is pristine, and it used hardware accel well.

By meaning "eligible" for DTV are you referring to Over the Air Digital TV or DirecTV (abbreviated on AVSForum as "D*")? If you mean D*, there will be no eligibility requirements when PBS HD becomes available. The only requirement is that you have not opted out of receiving local channels from D*.I get my local channels from D* and I did mean D*. So D* is not currently providing a national PBD HD feed? :( Or where you referring to a the local PBS? Seems like I had heard there weren't the same restrictions on the national PBS feed as there were on the locals.

Directv is NOT carrying a national PBS HD feed. They do have a SD feed. Rumor has it the HD feed will come when they fire up the new satellite in a few months.

Directv is NOT carrying a national PBS HD feed. They do have a SD feed. Rumor has it the HD feed will come when they fire up the new satellite in a few months.I hope it's not a few more months. How about in 1-2 more months at most?

I hope it's not a few more months. How about in 1-2 more months at most?
Well, they are still doing BSS experimental testing on it right now, and they have more time on that to go. I think they were allotted 120 days by the FCC (correct me if I am wrong arxaw). After they get done with that testing, they will float it back over to 99.225 and do more testing, then fire it up. So, we are probably looking mid-August now.

Much D11 discussion over at dbstalk.

Do me a favor, tune in a high symbol rate 4:2:2 broadcast, and minimize the window, and tell me what the cpu usage is...that will tell me how much cpu the card and driver need to pass the video to a media extender or network.
Well, well, contrary to my previous belief your request was almost as easily done as said.

There has been a 4:2:2 HD 29270SR LPGA golf feed yesterday and today. Some stats that I see on my system on the feed follows:

DVBDream with Elecard codec (no hardware acceleration):

70-90% CPU usage displaying video and audio.
1-5% CPU usage in renderless mode (no video or audio) with streaming (40 Mb/s).
523500 Total memory
~200000 Available memory

DVBDream Streamed (40Mb/s) to VideoLan VLC (no hardware acceleration):

60-80% CPU usage
523500 Total Memory
~156000 Available Memory

Hopefully, the results when streaming to VLC would be similar to using SageTV.

dmatch

OK, thanks. They just released the PVR software for my HD receiver, so now I need to find a decentl priced eSATA drive.

I see KWBFDT-2 finally has guide data on Directv...Wow, its taken em, what, two years :)

I see KWBFDT-2 finally has guide data on Directv...Wow, its taken em, what, two years :)
Again, you are welcome. It was due to my constant bugging of the Tribune people to get their "researching" done and fix the data. They still haven't fixed the PBS-HD data on Comcast Digital 440. Maybe one day. Until then, I am using PBS-HD data I get from other channels.

I've got this wintv thing running, and get guide data now, don't know if its from the net or the hidden signal in one of the stations, but I'd like to "add" pbs-hd guide data to my channel 1 input (component) from the hd-pvr. If I was to set up a custom guide, what would I use? All I see on Comcast cables channels are PBS-X and KETS-DT...What "channel" is pbs-HD on their lineup? Currently I'm using PBS-Iowa channel 11.1 is DesMoines to manually get it with WinTvs program and setting up manual records, which all say "No Data" for the title, since there isn't any guide data...

Business as usual over on the ABC "affiliate" (http://cfc.katv.com/external.cfm?p=prespo&menu=programming)

of course. I e-mailed KATV and complained. Not that it does any good but it's a vent for me. It's a shame that we're missing out on HD programming, even if you don't like soccer or arena football (championship will be in HD!), to have infomercials. KWBF OTA is stretched but has better quality than KWBF via E*. I bet I could get better quality on ESPN360.com but I really wanted to watch the final in HD. Same thing with the ArenaBowl, the one AFL game I watch a year.

I've got this wintv thing running, and get guide data now, don't know if its from the net or the hidden signal in one of the stations, but I'd like to "add" pbs-hd guide data to my channel 1 input (component) from the hd-pvr. If I was to set up a custom guide, what would I use? All I see on Comcast cables channels are PBS-X and KETS-DT...What "channel" is pbs-HD on their lineup? Currently I'm using PBS-Iowa channel 11.1 is DesMoines to manually get it with WinTvs program and setting up manual records, which all say "No Data" for the title, since there isn't any guide data...
Dave, I don't know anything about WinTV and its program guide. To me, it is a VERY inferior product and I just don't use it. I can't get it to work very well at all, especially for QAM programming (I get nothing but black screens on those channels, same as using the Hauppauge MCE plugin). I use GB-PVR or SageTV now (thanks again for the heads up. It works very well for analog cable across my network, but even it doesn't do QAM right).

I already said in my previous post what channel PBS-HD is on Comcast, but its actually listed as 80.3 when you do a QAM scan for it and it says PBS1DTV as the name of the channel. It shows up just after 102.9 when its scanning channels. When I get program guide data for it, I am using listings from KDIN-DT.

Hope that helps.

of course. I e-mailed KATV and complained. Not that it does any good but it's a vent for me. It's a shame that we're missing out on HD programming, even if you don't like soccer or arena football (championship will be in HD!), to have infomercials. KWBF OTA is stretched but has better quality than KWBF via E*. I bet I could get better quality on ESPN360.com but I really wanted to watch the final in HD. Same thing with the ArenaBowl, the one AFL game I watch a year.

I was home today and noticed the latest block of "local programming" while flipping channels--three hours of infomercials. This is something one would expect out of some LPTV or ION/PAX/whatever they are called nowadays. Yes, its soccer (the European Championship) and most of us here couldn't give a tinkers damn about it but it is network programming and would much better serve the public interest than yet another "Spamming-house flipping-whatever" scheme purchased in 30 minute blocks. Its also ironic that the the championship game of Arena Football won't be seen on the ABC affiliate of a town that also hosts a Arena Football 2 team.

If I cant get PBS 2-1 from Redfield, should I be able to get the CW 38-1? I cant get any signal.

CW (38-1, and Subchannel 38-2) transmit on channel 39, and are much stronger than KETS on 2-1, so assuming you have your antenna pointed that direction, you should be able to get it if you are within ~50 miles or so. Where are you at?

PBS (AETN/KETS-DT 2-1) is transmitting on lowband VHF channel 5. You typically need a large VHF antenna to reliably receive it.

... Its also ironic that the the championship game of Arena Football won't be seen on the ABC affiliate of a town that also hosts a Arena Football 2 team.

I used that argument when I complained about the season opener being preempted. They've gotten to where they don't reply anymore. Guess they know the name and tune it out...

KATV's move and power increase to 1,000 kW ERP has been approved by the FCC. Scroll to the bottom of this page (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101250521&formid=301&fac_num=33543) and download the exhibit attachments for details.

If I cant get PBS 2-1 from Redfield, should I be able to get the CW 38-1? I cant get any signal.
That would depend on many things, not the least of which are, type, size and location of the antenna, as well as where you are located (distance, hills, trees etc.). The answer would also depend on why you couldn't get PBS.

As was pointed out earlier, one transmission is in the low VHF band (channel 5 = KETS-DT = PBS) the other is in the UHF band (channel 39 = KASN-DT = CW38). Low VHF signals propagate very well thru the atmosphere and diffract relatively well around objects in the path (trees, hills, etc). UHF does not do near as well and therefore requires much more power than low VHF for the same coverage area. The higher the channel number the more power required for a channel to cover the same area.

Coverage area for KETS-DT:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1034571.html

Coverage area for KASN-DT:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT611467.html

dmatch

For those that haven't scanned lately, I'm getting 3ABN digital 27.1 English and 27.2 Spanish. 72% quality on my roof mounted UHF bow tie san reflector, pointed west from Levy.

what's 3ABN? is that new? is it worth the effort to tune my antenna for it?

3ABN is another religious network, they've been around for many years.

- Trip

Its just a fun low power dx source. FCC data shows its running 1KW from 160 meters above ground, probably on the roof of a building downtown LR. Just interesting, as its the second low power digital in the area (ch 18 in Cabot-Searcy) being the first, but I can't get a lock on that one.

3ABN is a Seventh Day Adventist broadcasting network (Three Angels Broadcasting). They were previously on analog channel 55 in Little Rock and a frequent "beacon" for "propagation". That station went off the air on 55 sometime ago. K55GE (the actual callsigns of the station) isn't worth tuning in for IMHO. (I won't get them due to KTVE-DT 27 which puts a moderate signal up here).

Oh Dave on a related question, is TBN broadcasting digital yet on ch34? Their analog signal (K34FH) has been down the last few months (and openings). That is one reason, I've logged KPBI 34 Eureka Springs only recently.

I've also seen a CP for KKAP-DT (on ch 36--flash cut). The other LP's (including Equity's stable, and KJLR 28/KZJG 9 from Cowsert have no CP's pending on DTV. Its likely Equity *may* shutdown the LP's once KWBF-DT goes full power(?) and casts off KATV's relay. The Cowsert stations will likely solider on analog due to the LPTV exemption...

FWIW, Pine Bluff did have a LPTV on ch 65 (KIPB) that started around 1986-87 or so. The station--owned by Immanuel Bapitst Church PB-- decided to go off the air in May 2005 instead of investing in new equipment/conversion, but three days before the formal shutdown, the transmitter failed. KIPB's post-transition channel would have been ch 18.

...(K34FH) has been down the last few months (and openings). That is one reason, I've logged KPBI 34 Eureka Springs only recently...Look for Equity's KPBI-DT 34 (http://www.fcc.gov/ftp/Bureaus/MB/Databases/fm_tv_service_areas/maps/DT1251268.gif) soon, during favorable propagation periods. They are flash cutting to DTV sometime between now and 2/18/09. 2,000'+ AMSL & 1,000kW ERP.

Nope, no TBN that I've seen, other than satellite.

Since KATV got approved, how long do you think it will take them to throw up a big tower and get cooking? Think they will put ch22 DTV up at reduced power on a temp tower, or keep using KWBF?

Nope, no TBN that I've seen, other than satellite.

Since KATV got approved, how long do you think it will take them to throw up a big tower and get cooking? Think they will put ch22 DTV up at reduced power on a temp tower, or keep using KWBF?

For the new tower/full power: Doubtful for the Arkansas-Texas game (sept 13). Maybe by November sweeps or Christmas.

KETS is showing Soundstage (REO Speedwagon) in HD (thu 9p) for those interested.

WMC (http://www.wmctv.com/global/story.asp?s=8611045) Memphis launches local newscast. Its being discussed (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14212838#post14212838) on the Memphis board as well. Found out today by a fellow WTFDA member in Memphis. WMC is also going to have decent signal (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=19184#10002)(at least on paper) for down-low VHF.

The proof will be in the skip. When I lived in Blytheville (In the contour), Ch 3 and 5 were unwatchable every morning and evening due to skip. Ch 10 and 13 were pretty much OK, and 24 and 30 were rock solid. Assuming NO other stations in a 300 mile radius of Memphis uses channel 5, they should be alright...maybe even better since propagation will help them. If there are any other ch 5's on the Mississippi river, they will be in trouble. I could get Baton Rouge and New Orleans just about every night up there.

WTVF Nashville will also be on channel 5 (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=&arn=&city=&chan=05&cha2=05&serv=DT&type=5&facid=&list=1&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9). Except for that station, WMC, and one between Austin and San Antonio, there isn't one in a state bordering AR. 10 stations in the US and Canada. Of course those living half-way between Memphis and Nashville will have interesting reception.

KETS is showing Soundstage (REO Speedwagon) in HD (thu 9p) for those interested.
I happily tuned in to watch REO Speedwagon on Soundstage only to find that the thunderstorms generally north of me were causing many dropouts on 5. It was terribly distracting. Don't you just love low VHF :mad:

I wound up watching it on 18-2 (KTWN-DT's rebroadcast of AETN). I did learn something though (besides low VHF sucks). With musical content, at least for me, a SD picture with decent sound beats an HD with poor sound.

Something else of interest occurred during the event. That thunderstorm I spoke of apparently rained out KTWN's satellite dish which was receiving the signal from, I think, Dish Network. A screen briefly appeared that said "Attention" - "Acquiring Satellite 110" - then "Acquiring Satellite 119" with sequentially changing "Transponder: Spotbeam" numbers. KTWN must be getting the AETN signal to rebroadcast from satellite.

dmatch

I happily tuned in to watch REO Speedwagon on Soundstage only to find that the thunderstorms generally north of me were causing many dropouts on 5. It was terribly distracting. Don't you just love low VHF :mad:We get the same thing on KAFT-DT highband VHF 9. VERY annoying trying to watch it if storms are anywhere in the region. No problems at all on UHF DTV stations during lightning.

I too, would rather watch SD with no dropouts than HD with annoying missing bits of audio.

We get the same thing on KAFT-DT highband VHF 9. VERY annoying trying to watch it if storms are anywhere in the region.
Say it ain't so:confused: I had hoped that KETS-DT's upcoming move to High VHF (7) would be a substantial improvement.

Is KAFT-DT normally a strong signal for you? KETS-DT, where I am, runs between 85-95% quality when no thunderstorms are around. I get dropout free results when quality readings are above 55% so I would characterize KETS-DT as a moderate level signal here. 12 is stronger here (it is closer - 95-100%) and I would characterize it as a strong signal. I don't see much effect of the T'Storms that are around this morning on 12 like I do on 5 so had hoped that 7 would be more of an improvement. But I see that KATV analog shows a lot of noise from lightning strikes this morning, so I guess, considering your statement about KAFT-DT, I shouldn't get my hopes up.:mad:

dmatch

KATV analog is low power, as is KETS-DT. I would suspect once KETS moves to ch 7 and runs full power your results should match the current channel 12 digital, assuming the same antenna gain on both channels.

I recorded the concert from both KETS and directly from PBS-HD. Luckily I was south of the storms, and only counted two glitches on KETS's capture. I saved that one because it was in dolby digital, where my sat recording box only records in two channel right now, but I always have to remember not to turn on or off any lights when I'm recording KETS.

As far as Nashville and Memphis having channel 5's, the terrain between the two is a good insulator. I only picked up Nashville two or three times in the two years I lived in Blytheville. Hopefully San Antonio is far enough away. Will be nice to have a full power Memphis low band digital to use as a skip beacon here in LR tho :) I really need to put up about a 70' tower to get over McCain Mall and Park Hill... They are about 100' higher than I am, and block everything.

Speaking of interference (thunderstorms), I have been studying the local DTV channel signals for quite a while now by recording the quality readings of each with TSReader on a daily basis. There are 2 channels which seem to be notably different from the rest. Channel 30 (pseudo 16) and 32 (pseudo 4) have quality readings that are more variant as indicated by the Relative Standard Deviation of the signal quality.

Here are the average Relative Standard Deviations (average of many RSDs from 30 seconds of quality readings from TSReader) for some of the Little Rock stations since May 19, 2008:

KETS-DT 5 RSD=1.94 Avg Qual=87.7% %RSD=2.21
KTHV-DT 12 RSD=1.36 Avg Qual=98.7% %RSD=1.38
KLRT-DT 30 RSD=5.05 Avg Qual=90.9% %RSD=5.56
KARK-DT 32 RSD=4.85 Avg Qual=83.5% %RSD=5.81
KWBF-DT 44 RSD=1.93 Avg Qual=59.0% %RSD=3.27

For relative reference my HDTV will deliver an unbroken picture down to about 55% quality (Qual) and my computer down to about 60%.

Judging from the variation in signal qualities for Channels 30 and 32 it would appear to me that there is some sort of "special" interference with these channels or that their transmitters are noisier than the others (this I doubt but can not rule out).

Any educated guesses as to what the source of interference might be or whether there is any interference at all?

WLMT (30)/WLMT-DT(31) in Memphis?
Extraterrestrial attempt at communication?

I doubt the WLMT scenario since my antenna is pointed S/SW about 90+ degrees from Memphis.

One reason I ask is that on my Vizio HDTV there is an annoying slight jitter/stutter/echo in the "aaudioo" most of the time on channel 32 even when the signal quality appears to be high. This got me to looking into what was the difference with this channel that would cause that.

Edit: @davenlr: Saw your post after posting this one. I hope you are right in your interpretation about the effect of 5 going to 7 and increasing power.

dmatch

I recorded the concert from both KETS and directly from PBS-HD. Luckily I was south of the storms, and only counted two glitches on KETS's capture. I saved that one because it was in dolby digital, where my sat recording box only records in two channel right now, but I always have to remember not to turn on or off any lights when I'm recording KETS.

As far as Nashville and Memphis having channel 5's, the terrain between the two is a good insulator. I only picked up Nashville two or three times in the two years I lived in Blytheville. Hopefully San Antonio is far enough away. Will be nice to have a full power Memphis low band digital to use as a skip beacon here in LR tho :) I really need to put up about a 70' tower to get over McCain Mall and Park Hill... They are about 100' higher than I am, and block everything.

I did tune in , but experienced audio/video dropouts about every 1-2 min even with a 100% signal strength. The A/C was running at the time. I hope that at least those in Memphis and Nashville won't experience this at least within 20-30 miles of the towers. I would be tempted to get a single channel yagi for ch 5---if I had a tower to hang it from.

Dmatch: Looking over your data, it appears the stronger the signal, the more variation you are getting. This clues me in to two possibilities, multipath off trees/airplanes/cars, or overload in the receivers front end. A way to tell is install a cheap signal attenuator in line, and see if the readings stabilize.

FWIW, I'm not getting any audio stutter on ch 32 from any of my receivers.

Say it ain't so...It's so.

Not as bad as lowband 5 was when I lived in LR, but enough to be very annoying. Especially if I'm recording something and miss several important words of a sentence! AETN has applied for a power increase for KAFT-DT (which is already at full power). I hope that will help.

Is KAFT-DT normally a strong signal for you?KAFT-DT is 45 miles away and the majority of the time signal strength is almost always 100%. Worst case is ~95% signal strength. I get the audio drops, whether it's 100% or 95%. It's weather/electrical interference on channel 9. I'm dreading KOLR-DT's move from UHF 52 to VHF 10 next year. Another VHF to deal with and possible co-channel interference with 9, plus pesky impulse noise interference. :(

...I see that KATV analog shows a lot of noise from lightning strikes this morning, so I guess, considering your statement about KAFT-DT, I shouldn't get my hopes up.That "noise" may show up as audio dropouts on KETS-DT 7.

Dmatch: Looking over your data, it appears the stronger the signal, the more variation you are getting. This clues me in to two possibilities, multipath off trees/airplanes/cars, or overload in the receivers front end. A way to tell is install a cheap signal attenuator in line, and see if the readings stabilize.

FWIW, I'm not getting any audio stutter on ch 32 from any of my receivers.

The multipath off of trees is a possibility. I am behind trees here. I can see their effect on signal quality variation as they sway in gusty winds on channel 44 but see little effect on any of the lower frequency channels listed. That sort of drop in quality with accompanying increase in variation is much longer in duration (as long as the gust of wind lasts) than the very quick excursions from high (90+) to low (70+) on channels 30 and 32. I also would expect to see the effect of multipath on channel 44's variation in quality.

Recognition of multipath from airplanes is easy to recognize due to its severity and would probably generate much much larger RSDs and it shouldn't be present 24/7 as this seems to be.

I would be surprised if I could get too much signal this far out with no line-of-sight (LOS) to the transmitters. According to tvfool.com these channels are 2-edge diffraction and there are at least 2 major ridges between me and the transmitters. It also indicates that LOS is about 150 feet up. I am about 30 miles NE of the transmitters. I do have a very large (12 feet support beam) combination antenna with a CM7777 pre-amp. I can remove the pre-amp and do some testing on the channels to see if overload is a possibility. That should be the same as adding an attenuator. I should be able to tell very quickly since this variation in signal quality seems to be there ALL the time.

The only receiver I get the channel 32 stutter on is the Vizio HDTV. It actually is not horrible and only a very slight stutter but is still irritating (once I noticed it). Neither my computer (Pinnacle USB) or Samsung SIR-T451 exhibit the problem.

Do you (or anyone reading this) have any way that you can read the signal quality in 1 second intervals on these channels and see if you see something similar (several rapid Excursions from 90+ to 70+ or a similar 20 % change over about 30 seconds). It should be noticeable on a bar meter even if no numbers are displayed as long as it updates quick enough.

Thanks for the overload idea. I'm going to check that out.

dmatch

Well, if you are using an amplifier, that in itself generates 2db of noise. Be curious what you find with it bypassed. Also, could be hum on the power going up the coax to the amp.

FWIW, I get the same variations on KU band. A signal with 99% quality will suddenly drop to 93, then jump back to 99. I've NEVER seen a stable quality reading off satellite, and there isn't much that can affect that.

For one second test, here are my results...Bow tie at 30', LOS to all but Redfield transmitters:
2-1 77-83 mean 80
4-1 87-92 mean 90
7-1 77-85 mean 82
11-1 85-92 mean 88
16-1 91-100 mean 100
25-1 50-55 mean 52
38-1 54-59 mean 58
42-1 79-84 mean 83

Hope that's what you were after. Low-High at 1 second sample rate, with mean average over 1 minute.

The multipath off of trees is a possibility. I am behind trees here. I can see their effect on signal quality variation as they sway in gusty winds on channel 44 but see little effect on any of the lower frequency channels listed. That sort of drop in quality with accompanying increase in variation is much longer in duration (as long as the gust of wind lasts) than the very quick excursions from high (90+) to low (70+) on channels 30 and 32. I also would expect to see the effect of multipath on channel 44's variation in quality.It's possible that channels in the low 30s range are just not "hot" with your antenna/preamp setup. Or too hot. If everything were equal, 44 should be your worst Shinall channel, due to it's lower tower height.

What brand/model antenna do you have?

@davenlr:

Thanks for taking the time to take those readings. Your numbers on the 2 channels I was curious about are in a much tighter range than mine so I'll putz around and see what I can figure out about my system. I suppose I could be amping up some noise from this big old antenna. I have it pointed toward Camp Robinson and often wonder about all the stuff that could come out of there.

This is no big deal since I do not have any significant problem with them except for the aaaudioo thing on 32 (pseudo 4) and I guess that is some shortcoming of the Vizio HDTV since that is the only place I consistently have it.

@arxaw:

I have the largest combination UHF/VHF antenna (12 foot support beam) that was sold by RatShack from about 15 years ago. I believe it is a VU-190XR VHF/UHF.

Yes, 44 (pseudo 42) is by far the weakest of the Shinall channels I receive and it just recently started falling below my reception threshold for much of the day. I bet they are not running up to their licensed power level, but as you indicated, they are also on a short stick so that doesn't help.

Thanks,

dmatch

Yes, 44 (pseudo 42) is by far the weakest of the Shinall channels I receive and it just recently started falling below my reception threshold for much of the day. I bet they are not running up to their licensed power level...I doubt that RF 44 (virtual 42-n) is at their allotted power level. Equity doesn't do anything else right.

My Thoughts exactly!

dmatch

As was discussed earlier with davenlr I removed the pre-amp from my antenna and did a direct to receiver test straight thru the 70 feet of RG6 cable that comes in the house. It was a very calm morning (very little wind) here so this was a good time to test since wind should not be a factor at all.

All Averages (Avg) and Relative Standard Deviations (RSDs) taken from 1 second readings for 2 minutes. I also threw in Channel 39 (pseudo 38) just to look at it.

Before pre-amp removal:

Channel 30 (16) Avg Qual=93.0 RSD=4.96
Channel 32 (4) Avg Qual=86.5 RSD=5.51
Channel 39 (38) Avg Qual=61.1 RSD=2.11
Channel 44 (42) Avg Qual=50.7 RSD=1.33

After pre-amp removal:

Channel 30 (16) Avg Qual=88.5 RSD=5.15
Channel 32 (4) Avg Qual=83.6 RSD=4.34
Channel 39 (38) Avg Qual=22.6 RSD=2.6
Channel 44 (42) Avg Qual=21.3 RSD=1.26

It appears that the pre-amp had very little effect on the variation in signal quality as indicated by the RSDs before and after removal. 30 and 32 still appear to have the higher variations. You can also see why I am using the pre-amp. No chance of getting 39 or 44 without it.

Thanks for considering what might be going on. Any other suggestions would be welcomed. Again, this is no big deal I am just very curious about it....part of the hobby you might say.

dmatch

Run those figures as a percentage. The higher signal, say 100 with 4 points variance and a 50 signal with 2 points, would be the same percentage... Might just be the numbers aren't being looked at right. FWIW, I think the actual content of the video itself might cause the fluctuations...since its also very much the same on satellite. It also might have something to do with the forward error correction and the receivers ability to calculate complex corrections...such as impulse noise, electrical noise, etc. On sat, the more FEC used, the more stable the readings are. On White Springs TV, hich uses the most FEC, the signal can drop to 10% quality and be stable. On network feed meant for reception with 16' dishes, they use very little FEC, and I cannot lock a picture even at 70% quality. I don't know if the FEC is mandated as part of the ATSC spec, or if the stations can play with them. If the later is true, a 720p station could use more FEC than a 1080i station for the same bandwidth.

I don't know enough about ATSC to tell. Perhaps one of the station engineers on here could chime in with some answers and information.

Run those figures as a percentage.
I had thought of that and did show the percentage (%RSD) in the earlier data post. That did not seem to remove the oddity of these 2 signals with respect to signal quality variation. Since it (quality) is a percentage anyway (I think) I'm not quite sure about applying a percentage to a percentage, but would need to know much more about signal quality calculations than I do to draw any conclusions. I know very little (actually nothing) about how TSReader does this calculation or if it gets it from the receiver somehow.
I don't know if the FEC is mandated as part of the ATSC spec, or if the stations can play with them. If the later is true, a 720p station could use more FEC than a 1080i station for the same bandwidth.

I think I will look into that.

BTW, I tried de-tuning the signal a little by rotating away from the best reception for the channels hoping to remove any potential influence that Camp Robinson might have and saw the same higher variations for the same 2 channels. I moved 15 then 30 degrees counterclockwise (to about due south) and then 15 to 30 degrees clockwise (about SW). With both scenarios, the signal qualities (on the 2 channels of interest) dropped about 10 then 20% but the signal quality variation stayed about the same and still noticeably higher than others.

Good thing the wife isn't watching what I'm doing very closely today or I'm sure she would have pointed out several times that the picture seems to be fine and that I have no business messing with it.

dmatch

FWIW, this is from http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_53-Part-2-2007.pdf

"6.4.1.4 Main Service Trellis Coding

The 8 VSB transmission sub-system shall employ a two-thirds rate (R=2/3) trellis code..."

I have also seen other places on the net that define the ATSC standard as using an FEC of 2/3. So I guess that is probably not a variable that would associate with the increased signal quality variation.

dmatch

Good hunting there. 2/3, wow. Shouldn't be able to mess with that to easy. Satellite uses 3/4 for the most part, and 7/8 for signals intended for large ground stations. Of course, they use immune from most noise sources, but use much less power too.

BTW, just what are you trying to accomplish? Just curious?

I believe the meters on the receivers show an inverse bit-rate error... i.e. 100 is 0 errors, 0 is 100% errors. I might be wrong there tho...

Article here (http://www.metropulse.com/news/2008/jul/02/ear-ground-ruby-thursday/). And here (http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2008/jul/02/wkop-pbs-goes-air/)--the later article has some real dumba*s responses from readers like this one

"...The switch isn't planned to happen until next year so even the feeble offers to help customers transition using a converter box aren't available. I doubt the boxes are even available yet..."

WTF???

"...The switch isn't planned to happen until next year so even the feeble offers to help customers transition using a converter box aren't available. I doubt the boxes are even available yet..." I'm not surprised many people are confused. PSAs that have been running are so misleading because some of them actually say things like "TV is switching to digital broadcasting on 2/17/09, blah blah blah....".

They should be running crawls telling people to convert to DTV now, because it's already here.

I found this one almost laughable.

By the way, in response to the question about the conversion to digital, that is related to the events of September 11th. The Federal Government is freeing up the analog spectrum for use by emergency service transmissions in order to avoid the communication problems encountered after the attacks.


Never mind that the digital transition had been in the planning stages for, what, something like 14 years before 9111. Heh! but maybe there was a brilliant master plan started all those years ago to get people to accept DTV.

dmatch

BTW, just what are you trying to accomplish? Just curious?

My original intent was to figure out what is different about Channel 32 (pseudo 4) that causes the irritating aaaudiooo stutter on my Vizio HDTV. One thing lead to another and I noticed the higher variation in signal quality on 32 and 30. Now I am mostly "just curious."

dmatch

I'm not surprised many people are confused. PSAs that have been running are so misleading because some of them actually say things like "TV is switching to digital broadcasting on 2/17/09, blah blah blah....".

They should be running crawls telling people to convert to DTV now, because it's already here.

The ones that frost me are the "Your TV will stop working after Feburary 17, 2009". Analog TVs will still work--but just won't receive anything with the internal tuner OTA (other than the odd LPTV, and low band "skip" a few times a year from outside the US--Canada until 2011, Mexico, Cuba).

Update: Another general DTV article here (http://www.tulsaworld.com/common/printerfriendlystory.aspx?articleID=20080706_52_E1_hPubli364 661), from the Tulsa World this morning.

Analog TVs will still work--but just won't receive anything with the internal tuner OTA (other than the odd LPTV, and low band "skip" a few times a year from outside the US--Canada until 2011, Mexico, Cuba).
You're not supposed to pay close enough attention to know that or learn about it for yourself.;)

dmatch

Jeez, that TulsaWorld article was full of bad information.

Update: Another general DTV article here (http://www.tulsaworld.com/common/printerfriendlystory.aspx?articleID=20080706_52_E1_hPubli364 661), from the Tulsa World this morning.

great idea from the electronics store owner not stocking the converter boxes until it gets closer. does he not realize these government coupons expire within three months? I never got my first one (changed addresses, didn't forward) and my second coupon request expires this month. I guess he doesn't want the business?

speaking of which, I need to grab a box soon. Anyone seen the TR40 around yet?

TR40/DTVPal thread is here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1001979&page=118).

Personally, I would not buy one.

My coupons expired three days ago... Decided it wasn't worth having any more SD equipment in the house. Went with HD over ethernet. Much better solution for me

Could you explain how that eliminates the need for converter boxes? Have you also quit using any NTSC TVs you might have?

Edit: Never mind I see you said "wasn't worth having any more SD equipment." I presume that would include NTSC TVs and VCRs etc.

dmatch

I would think that any time any of us comes across stupid and misleading articles like that TulsaWorld article, we should make it a special point to contact the publication putting it out and try to get the facts corrected. What do you guys think? I think it could only help people if we did that.

arxaw, I see that the forum you linked to has 79 pages. Is there any way to give a quick rundown on what you find are the reasons to not get a TR40? I read a few of the posts and I guess it looks like the reason might be because of the way the software is written for it that it doesn't work so well?

davenlr: how did you go about doing HD over ethernet? If you could show me some places to get info, that would be good. I would love to be able to find a way to stream HD around. And, can you do it to older TV's like by maybe downrezzing it to 4:3 or something that an old NTSC TV can handle? Or is it only for new HD TV's? In any case, I think I would still like to read up on it.

Check www.sagetv.com and read about the HD media extender. They also have an SD media extender. I have my server running in the Living room, but you could put it anywhere, like close to an outdoor antenna :). It will output HD or SD, and any files on the home network in a shared directory can be available. You can run several tuners (cards or USB sticks) on the server and they are available on the extenders. Can record from all sources at once if you want. With the addition of the hauppage HDPVR as one of the sage tuners, you can control a dish or directv sat receiver. Guide data comes from zap2it. Haven't found a way to import FTA channel lists, as zap2it goes by either system (comcast, directv etc) or zip code (for analog or digital ota). I did map an Iowa pbs digital to it, and get guide data for PBS-HD off sat, but haven't found a way to add all the equity channels, etc. Only been trying a couple days, and since its new (the tuner), Sage just added support for it in their latest beta. Might be a little while. lots of reading.

Cost was what convinced me. I record 60% of my programs off locals, so by adding a $40 HDTV USB stick, and a $69 video card to my computer, I freed up the Directv DVR. Added the HD recorder for $199 (records component YPrPb/AC3) with no DRM to worry about, and a switcher, so I can record off the Directv DVR or the FTA satellite. Store it all on a 1TB network drive. Works really well. I know it won't let two people watch two different channels off the same tuner, but it allows multiple tuners.

Menu is REAL easy to use. I'm loving it so far.

And Dmatch: I don't have any NTSC only TV's. VCR was put on standby just to play a old tape if I need to. All my Beta's and VHS tapes I wanted to keep, I copied to DVD a while ago.

Dmatch: Just noted something of KLRT 16-1... About every 30 seconds to 2 min, I get a GREEN LINE across the screen. Hitting replay, I can repeat the green line. Don't see it on my Directv receiver tho, just the computer. That would show up on your program as a glitch in the signal maybe?? Don't see it on any other channels tho.

Relatively new with HD, but have the following set up:

36' Taco Tower
VIP-306SR for VHF
91XG for UHF
CM 7777 amp
Est. 150 ft RG
Location between Batesville & Newport (Closer to Batesville)

Can currently receive Memphis Channels 3, 5, 10, 24, 30 & 50 primarily at night with signal strengths often between 87-98 on 3, 24, & 10. Works as expected since I am right at 100 or maybe a little more from Memphis. Cannot receive Memphis during the day, but that is what I expected.

With Little Rock, channel 4 is the strongest station at my loction often 95-100% both day & night. Fox 16 runs about 82-87% with some pixel breaks especially during the day. Channel 11 runs 82 - 89% but has audio breaks-- even without drop out or pixel breaks. KASN runs 75-79% and of course I cannot get 42 KKYK at all and we know the story with channel 7 .

I am using a Winegard RC -1010 HD tuner to allow me to add channels manually without rescans on the Vizio 32". I think the RC-1010 is a better tuner than the one in the Vizio also.

Does anyone have any comments about the audio on 11? I am pretty well pleased with Little Rock reception considering the distance. I am not to crazy about HD and chopy audio. 8 in Jonesboro and 19 in Jonesboro are both fine with 98-100% reception at all times. Only about 60 miles from Jbr. Are there any additional recommendations that might make improvements such as additional amplification or attenuators?

arxaw, I see that the forum you linked to has 79 pages. Is there any way to give a quick rundown on what you find are the reasons to not get a TR40?Easy. It's buggy betaware that should've never been released for sale until the bugs were fixed.

Details can be found in that thread and other forums like dbstalk. But this is not a hardware thread, so....

Channel 11 runs 82 - 89% but has audio breaks-- even without drop out or pixel breaks.

Does anyone have any comments about the audio on 11? I am pretty well pleased with Little Rock reception considering the distance. I am not to crazy about HD and chopy audio...You are likely experiencing impulse noise interference on KTHV's bad channel choice. Another possibility may be co-channel interference from one of these channel 12s (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=&arn=&city=&chan=12&cha2=12&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=1&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9). Urban viewers may not see it, but these are common problems for fringe VHF DTV viewers. VHF should have been abandoned for digital TV broadcasts.

My AETN station, KAFT-DT in NWA is on VHF ch 9 and it suffers from the same audio drops at 45 miles out, even though I get it @ 100% signal strength. My best CBS affiliate, KOLR-DT out of Springfield on UHF ch 52, will be moving to VHF 10 next Feb. At 70 miles distance, I expect it will have the same audio problems. It also currently comes in @ 100% :(

Dmatch: Just noted something of KLRT 16-1... About every 30 seconds to 2 min, I get a GREEN LINE across the screen. Hitting replay, I can repeat the green line. Don't see it on my Directv receiver tho, just the computer. That would show up on your program as a glitch in the signal maybe?? Don't see it on any other channels tho.
Yeah, it sure might. That's about how often (10-30 sec) channel 30 (aka 16) and 32 (aka 4) have larger excursions (down) in signal quality. I've managed a way to graph this stuff fairly easily and after looking at graphs of signal quality of all the channels, IMHO, there really is something different about those 2 channels. Except for the aaaudiooo problem (which may not relate at all) that's no big deal but.....

I'm slowly but surely starting to get a love-hate relationship with DTV. It's great when it works but there seems to be so darn much stuff that can go wrong it's kind of like pushing a chain. There seems to be a lot of buggy not ready for prime time firmware in digital devices and that just makes it even worse trying to figure out what's going on when things aren't quite right or just plain don't work. If it ain't one thing it's another.

There is one (soon to be short lived) advantage to my DTV transition. I now have absolutely great analog reception on all but the 2 channels (KASN & KWBF) that I can not get reliably on DTV. Even on those I have a dependable although somewhat snowy picture all the time.

BUD DVB satellite reception is a piece of cake as compared to this 8VSB stuff out here in the boonies.

dmatch

Relatively new with HD, but have the following set up:

36' Taco Tower
VIP-306SR for VHF
91XG for UHF
CM 7777 amp
Est. 150 ft RG
........
........

I see you have a 91XG. I am strongly considering getting one instead of getting a CM4228. Do you have line-of-sight to the Little Rock transmitters?

It appears you are getting good results with the 91XG. I am afraid that since I have no line-of-sight to any of the Little Rock transmitters that a CM4228 would not perform any better than the UHF yagi/corner reflector that is on my combination antenna. If I understand correctly, field strength of the signal must be consistent across a 8-bay antenna or a strong signal on some elements will just be re-radiated out the lesser performing elements. I know that the field strength is NOT consistent here with no line-of-sight to the transmitters and I am thinking that a larger yagi (like the 91XG) might perform better than a 8-bay panel antenna since the yagi interacts with a much smaller portion of the signal field.

Are there any additional recommendations that might make improvements such as additional amplification or attenuators?

It appears you have some of the most recommended equipment that there is. The only thing I can think of off-hand is, if you are feeding the signal to many TVs using splitters (or VCR in/out etc), you might consider a distribution amp at some point in the system to maintain a high enough signal level. Each 2-way split (such as VCR in/out) cuts the signal at least in half (3 dB) and that can eventually degrade the signal to a level that causes problems. If you don't have a lot of devices then the amp can actually hurt performance.

The CM7777 probably has enough amplification to overcome the loss in your 150' of cable (if it is RG6) with a little left over so this may not be a problem if you are not distributing the signal to many devices. To find out if you might benefit from extra amplification in the distribution path just eliminate all splitters from the path and go direct to your receiving device and see if it helps.

dmatch

... I am afraid that since I have no line-of-sight to any of the Little Rock transmitters that a CM4228 would not perform any better than the UHF yagi/corner reflector that is on my combination antenna...Most of my stations are not LOS and I get them very well with a 4228. See DT channel list below. I also have the screen removed for bi-directional reception, so I no longer need to use a rotor. I use a CM 7777 preamp, and the signal is split to 5 tuners.

http://i28.tinypic.com/2hmde8y.png

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2060/2141373616_985c640c1e.jpg

Love/Hate with 8VSB? Hahaha. Tonight I was getting skip on 41 and 53 (Memphis direction) and 13 and 15 (Texas Direction) and not ONE would go higher than 24 on my meter, and the receiver needs 30 to 35
to lock... Frustrating...

Since I had the Quantum hooked up without the combiner/bow tie, I decided to point west and get some signal quality readings. Shocking... 12 was 92, 30 was 100, 32 was only 88, and wow, 44 was 92... What happened to 32? Used to peg 100 just like 30.

Oh well, I'm also getting a 10% better quality reading from my 6' steel dish than I am from my 10' mesh, on the same satellite, so me is pullin hair out.... Some of this stuff makes no sense.

Some of KARK's channel 32 problems may actually be interference from KLRT channel 30. According to a new report, it has recently been discovered that channels that are separated by one other channel (example, 30 & 32) may cause interfere with each other that cheaper DTV tuners can't always reject.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0072/t.6906.html

Doesn't bode well for unlicensed (whitespace) devices, either.

Most of my stations are not LOS and I get them very well with a 4228. See DT channel list below. I also have the screen removed for bi-directional reception, so I no longer need to use a rotor. I use a CM 7777 preamp, and the signal is split to 5 tuners.

http://i28.tinypic.com/2hmde8y.png

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2060/2141373616_985c640c1e.jpg
Depending on how high your antenna is (looks fairly high to me) you may be up to LOS (rightmost column) on some or most of the channels.

At any rate, you are much nearer LOS to your stations than I am for the ones in Little Rock. They are about 100-200+ feet up for me.

Some of KARK's channel 32 problems may actually be interference from KLRT channel 30. According to a new report, it has recently been discovered that channels that are separated by one other channel (example, 30 & 32) may cause interfere with each other that cheaper DTV tuners can't always reject.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0072/t.6906.html

Doesn't bode well for unlicensed (whitespace) devices, either.

I think you may have found the answer to the 30 and 32 variability question. Who'd a thunk it. Good find arxaw.

dmatch

Also mentioned in that article is n+7 interference.
KLRT is on channel 30
K34FH is on channel 34 (also has a CP for digital on ch 34)
KASN is on channel 39

All of these have the potential to interfere with KARK on channel 32.

KARK has a bad channel assignment.

Depending on how high your antenna is (looks fairly high to me) you may be up to LOS (rightmost column) on some or most of the channels.IIRC, my antenna is about 35' AGL, which is what I entered in the tvfool form.

The LOS in TVFool is AGL (Above Ground Level) so it appears all but 1 of your transmitters is LOS at the antenna. Good choice of height.:)

dmatch

What he isn't saying is Ground Level is like 2000 feet...Id give up my job to find a house up on a mountain in Eureka Springs... I love it up there.

Thanks for the clarification.
I was thinking that was height above the antenna height needed for LOS.

FWIW, that antenna worked good for me when it was sitting on the ground, too. So, I wonder how accurate tvfool is...

What he isn't saying is Ground Level is like 2000 feet...Id give up my job to find a house up on a mountain in Eureka Springs... I love it up there.
So do I.

It was 95 in LR yesterday with a heat index of 102.
Temp here was 84 with a heat index of 86.
No mosquitoes and the DXing is great :)

@arxaw:

Sometimes I wonder about TVFool too. For instance, you can change the height of the antenna but the LOS doesn't change. However, the "Path" will change from LOS to 1 Edge or 2 Edge as you change antenna height. In your case 35 ft. is clearly at LOS on all but 1 transmitter but the path on many of the transmitters shows 1 or 2 Edge. There is a contradiction there somewhere.

I made what I thought was a pretty darn good 4-bay in as close to style and form to a CM4221 as reasonable. Couldn't get anything on it but 2 of the strongest DTV channels. I really expected to do much better than that.

That little experiment got me to looking at the signal field strength in the area. I knew I had located a "hot spot", but didn't realize how exceptional that particular spot was. The UHF end of my combo antenna has to remain within a volume about the size of a basketball (12' up) for my 2 toughest to get UHF DTV stations (39 and 44) to come in at all. Up, down, or sideways a couple of feet and there is virtually nothing on those 2 tough stations. I have gone higher (up to about 25' in increments of 2 feet) and channels 5, 12, 18, 30, and 32 improve but 39 and 44 are not to be found. I have found a few other hot spots in a 100 foot radius of the house but none as exceptional as the one I am currently using. If not for a line of trees about 100-200 feet away and in front of about a 200 foot ridge, I probably couldn't get anything high UHF. I believe those trees are actually diffracting the high UHF signals down to where I am receiving them. If I move the antenna back away from the transmitters (about 30 feet) the signals for 39 and 44 are found at an even lower height (about 8 feet up). Unfortunately, other channels start having problems. Anyway, the signal field density doesn't seem to be consistent at all here.That is why I am hesitant to try a CM4228 and was asking about the 91XG.

Sorry for the long-winded post. One thing leads to another.

dmatch

Anything after LOS + 30 miles is a crap shoot. I was getting DX from Memphis last night. On a one element bow tie, the signal was 21. On a $150 Channel Master Fringe VHF/Deepest Fringe UHF yagi, the signal was 24!!!...and I did the test using the same coax, so nothing changed but the antenna. My Televes DAT75 blows away everything else I've tried, and its on the order of the type you are looking at getting. I wish I had a scope so I could actually measure the db differences between them in real world use.

I see you have a 91XG. I am strongly considering getting one instead of getting a CM4228. Do you have line-of-sight to the Little Rock transmitters?

I have a CM4228 but I cannot advise an apples to apples comparison. The CM4228 was only about 20-25' where my 91XG is now at 36'. I really think the 91XG does better for me at the fringe area I am in. The signal strengh has shown positive improvement; I am not sure whether it is the height or the antenna. With the original pole antenna/CM4228 I was limited only to night time reception of Little Rock. With the 91XG I am receiving most of the Little Rock stations during the day. I am basically line of sight with all the transmitters to my southwest. Rule of thumb here in this area is once you drop off Brock Mtn. just outside Pleasant Plains, Little Rock TV signals drop off too. I am about 30-35 miles from the Mountain, but I am not on top of any mtn or hill. I do have a clear sight to Little Rock and Memphis with no trees, buildings, etc. I may just be lucky and have one of those sweet spots!


No VCRs or other devices is connect- coax just straight to TV. Other TV's are on E* but no HD locals there; they do seems to be moving along with National HD's. The CM7777 is great!

I learn a lot checking out this forum. Thanks to all for the information.

ncentral ark

Also mentioned in that article is n+7 interference.
KLRT is on channel 30
K34FH is on channel 34 (also has a CP for digital on ch 34)
KASN is on channel 39

All of these have the potential to interfere with KARK on channel 32.

KARK has a bad channel assignment.

I agree, but with another take. KARK and WABG share the same DTV channel. Before KARK went full power (St Patrick's Day 2006) I could receive WABG-DT most evenings. In areas southeast of me including Southeast Lincoln County, and Northern Desha County other full power DTV LR stations can potentially be received except for KARK-DT.

@ncentral ark:

Thanks for the feedback about your 91XG.

Are you 30-35 miles away from and behind (relative to LR transmitters) Brock Mountain or are you in front of it?

dmatch

KARK needs to move.

dmatch, either the 91xg or the 4228 aimed toward the horizon of the 200' hill may work for you. A friend of mine in downtown Eureka lives below a hill (the one by the big jesus), blocking his LOS to Springfield. He only has a CM4221 (+7777 of course). It is tilted toward the top of the hill, and he is getting all the Sprinfield full power stations except KOLR-DT on UHF 52. He gets their analog 10 "ok" so I expect he will be able to get KOLR-DT when they move back to VHF 10 in Feb.

@ncentral ark:

Thanks for the feedback about your 91XG.

Are you 30-35 miles away from and behind (relative to LR transmitters) Brock Mountain or are you in front of it?

dmatch

I am on the backside of the Mountain and even though I personally think the 91 is better than the CM4228-- there is no doubt in my mind however that if I were on top of the mountain or on the front side toward transmitters the CM4228 would work fine.

speaking of which, I need to grab a box soon. Anyone seen the TR40 around yet?

I got mine the other day and hooked it up today. Works fine and is about half the size of the Zenith box I got with my first coupon.

It has an honest to goodness guide built in. I don't know how it gets there unless some tv station is putting it out.

Both boxes pull in satisfactory pictues with a bowtie antenna on the tv, but the 42.1 42.2 and 7.1 are intermittent. Not stations I spend a whole lot of time with and it is just for backup anyhow, so no real harm with the poor power/height from that transmitter.

IIRC, the guide data is broadcast on CBS channels. Not sure, though.

Anyone with DirecTV who has "moved" to get HD DNS channels from NY may lose them when LR HD locals are added soon.

Discussion here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1046722).

I was afraid that would happen and one reason I was reluctant to go through the hoops to get HD DNS from D* only to lose it. I still kick myself from letting D* go years ago because my (now ex) wife at the time wanted cable after we moved to a apartment in LR. I had waivers back in the day for CBS (east and west SD) and at the time I didn't need one for FOX. I would have nearly killed for a waiver for ABC back then. :D

One can still "move" to what's called a true white area where no OTA TV reception is possible and locals aren't offered by D*. That will get you the East & West coast SD networks and HD networks from NY. If the address is Eligible, no waivers are needed.

There are still some locations in Arkansas.

If the spot beam reaches Mena...perhaps. Then I might move to Eureka Springs...wont that net me Ft Smith/Fqyetteville or Springfield?

Satellite subscribers in Carroll County get local TV from Springfield, Missouri. Archaic Nielsen DMAs (http://www.truckads.com/Affiliate/Springfield.htm#map) dating back to the dark ages when the only TV receiveable in Eureka was Springfield, MO. Springfield will likely get HD LIL when D11 goes live. Everyone here will lose HD DNS just like other HD LIL markets.

There are some "white area" addresses in N Central Ark. that get no OTA or Locals from D*. They're in ZIP Codes deemed too far from a strong LR spot beam, and out of OTA reach of KAIT in Jonesboro. Those areas get DNS service only (no locals). It is ala carte at 2 bucks per channel per month.

I'll probably "move" home if I lose NY and can't get the LR HD spot beam" - 8 dollars a month is too much to pay for DNS service.

Yea, no doubt. I sure won't pay for free tv, although weather map/scroll free shows make much better dvd's !!

Currently viewing a real ABC affiliate, KTBS-DT Shreveport via tropo scatter. Analog version of KLTV 7 Tyler TX making it in. Both are airing Good Morning America Saturday--the DTV from Shreveport airs it in HD (can't get KLTV-DT due to QRM from KTVE 10).

Both are smaller markets than Little Rock.

Dmatch: Just noted something of KLRT 16-1... About every 30 seconds to 2 min, I get a GREEN LINE across the screen. Hitting replay, I can repeat the green line. Don't see it on my Directv receiver tho, just the computer. That would show up on your program as a glitch in the signal maybe?? Don't see it on any other channels tho.
I have noticed the same green line flash on the screen that you described several different times now on 30 (aka 16). While it occasionally does it in the time frame that you suggest, it also does not happen at all for long periods of time. My guess is that this is a problem with their source material.

I am watching "Bones" now and it hasn't done it for about 20 minutes. It did it earlier though. I also saw it shortly after you first mentioned it.

Are you still seeing it (green line flash)?

dmatch

I usually notice it the most on the channel 16 news at 9. Haven't checked lately, Ill look tonight.

Yep, still there during videotape playback on the news. Also on live news shots. Ill watch another receiver tomorrow, and check it out.

At least during the times I was watching, it seemed to happen on local content only (as you seem to have noticed too). I don't watch 30 (aka 16) much so wasn't sure. I didn't see any problems during House but I had quit paying any attention to local content (commercials/promos). House and baseball is about all I usually watch on that channel. I have never noticed it during baseball either.

dmatch

Does anyone else have a DTVPAL in the LR area? I'm curious about the "up to 7 days" of Electronic Program Guide (EPG) it claims. I only get 12 hours -- on all channels. I only get 4, 11, and 16 at full strength here in Conway, but it seems odd that all the channels would broadcast 12 hours.

Also, anyone else in the Conway area care to share their reception info? I'm curious if I should get a different antenna.

I'm not in Conway, but what antenna are you currently using?

CBS will officially take Evening News with Katie Couric into the HDTV era Monday, July 28, when it will begin broadcasting in the 1080-line interlace format.

CBS Evening News in HDThe network spent a year-and-a-half building a new HD control room and graphics facility for the switch, and it has been conducting successful rehearsals for several weeks.

From a technical perspective, the newscast is ready to go HD next Monday, CBS News spokeswoman Sandy Genelius said, but due to the show’s broadcast schedule and some staff vacations, CBS decided to hold off another week.

CBS News has lagged behind other major news organizations in moving to HD, but the network is now moving aggressively to take its offerings to the higher-resolution format. Flagship magazine show 60 Minutes will go HD in September, while 48 Hours and CBS Sunday Morning will make the switch in 2009. The Early Show could go to HD later this year or in 2010, depending on whether it renews its lease of studio space at the General Motors Building.

Does anyone else have a DTVPAL in the LR area? I'm curious about the "up to 7 days" of Electronic Program Guide (EPG) it claims. I only get 12 hours -- on all channels. I only get 4, 11, and 16 at full strength here in Conway, but it seems odd that all the channels would broadcast 12 hours.


How long have you had the box? I know on my Sony HDD-DHG250, it took a few days for the full EPG to load, and I think the DTVPal uses the same source for info (TVGOS), but I'm not sure.

Does anyone else have a DTVPAL in the LR area? I'm curious about the "up to 7 days" of Electronic Program Guide (EPG) it claims. I only get 12 hours -- on all channels. I only get 4, 11, and 16 at full strength here in Conway, but it seems odd that all the channels would broadcast 12 hours.

Also, anyone else in the Conway area care to share their reception info? I'm curious if I should get a different antenna.
I don't have a DTVPal but on my computer with TSReader (a Transport Stream reader) I see EPG data thru 22:00. At the time of your post that would have been about 12 hours of data on all but channel 32 (aka 4) of the ones you listed. Channel 32 (aka 4) only goes thru 19:00. Currently, It looks like the most that can be expected from the LR locals is the minimum 12 hours required by the FCC (IIRC this is the minimum required and I hope I am corrected if wrong or this has changed).

FWIW, I also see (currently) data thru 22:00 for 39 (aka 38) and 44 (aka 42). Your DTVPal is probably displaying everything it is getting and that ain't 7 days worth.

Also, even though the DTVPal can send an analog version of TVGOS data to external devices I don't believe it uses it for its own EPG and depends on the PSIP data (EPG) sent from each individual station. At least that is what I think I read in the CECB DTVPal thread.

RE: Antenna

The antenna required for getting the rest of the LR locals will depend largely on your specific location. If you are behind a hill (with respect to LR) and/or are in/behind trees you will very likely need a pre-amp (like the CM7777) and a long-range (large) outdoor combination VHF/UHF antenna, or a long-range VHF and long-range UHF and combine them. You *might* not need the pre-amp if you have less than about 50' of RG6 cable going to the antenna.

I am about the same distance as you and north of the transmitters for LR TV stations. I have hills and trees between me and the transmitters so I use a very large combination VHF/UHF antenna (12 foot support beam) with a CM7777 pre-amp. Even then I can't get the weakest stations reliably (39 aka 38 and 44 aka 42) in hot humid weather.

Hope this helps,

Edit: From ATSC A/65C

The following PSIP data shall be included in all ATSC-compliant Transport Streams to be transmitted via terrestrial broadcast:
....
snip
....
The first four Event Information Tables (EIT-0, EIT-1, EIT-2 and EIT-3) describing 12 hours of events (TV programs), each with a coverage of 3 hours, and including all of the virtual channels listed in the TVCT.

dmatch

For the person in Conway, I would think you should be able to pick up the same stations I do as I live about 12 miles north of Conway. I have a small indoor/outdoor HD antenna from Radio Shack (model DA5200). I have it located near the roof, near my Dish Network dish. I have been very pleased as I am able to pick up 4, 7.1, 11, 11.2, 16, 38, 38.2, 42, 42.2 with no issues. I cannot pick up AETN because of their VHF transmission.

@bkb99:

Where you are in Conway can make a big difference. There is a ridge just south of Conway. Using the appropriate co-ordinates at TVFool.com indicates that just north of this ridge in Conway you will not have line-of-sight (LOS) to any of the LR/Pine Bluff Transmitters unless you have an antenna that is about 50-70 feet high (not an easy/cheap thing to do). You might need a large long-range antenna if you are in that direction or behind trees. However, in the center of Conway (near the Faulkner County Courthouse) you will have line-of-sight to the transmitters even at ground level so a large long-range antenna may not be necessary unless you are behind trees (there are a lot of them in older parts of Conway). Something like what doubled1987 is using may work well enough for you if no ridge/trees and you don't want to receive KETS-DT (5 aka 2).

Anyway, you could go to TVFool.com and put in your exact address to see if you have line-of-sight (last column on right = LOS) and at what height it is.

dmatch

What dmatch said. Enter your address at TVFool.com (http://www.tvfool.com). In the Conway area, hills can make or break reception, and you may need a good outdoor antenna & preamp.

If TVFool shows you can get most of the LR stations and also shows AETN via KEMV from Mountain View, an 8-bay UHF antenna might get you the LRs and KEMV off the back of the antenna, using the screen.

KEMV-DT (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1251457.html) will also be tripling its power in the next few months, which should help a lot of people receive it.

KLRT-DT Drops the Ball:

At precisely 10:00 PM CDT top of the 8th in the MLB All-Star game KLRT-DT went freeze-frame with an NFL Football screen then returned to glorious Pillar-boxed SD.:mad:

However, I did learn one thing from the SNAFU. The green line flashes that were first reported by Davenlr seem to only occur on pillar-boxed SD content. Did not see any green lines flashing during the HD presentation, but when they switched to SD they started appearing occasionally.

Edit: Only took 32 minutes for someone to notice and switch back to HD. Like the old lady in the "Where's the beef commercial" I was beginning to think "There's nobody back there".

dmatch

Wow...This weekend KTHV showed most (all?) of the golf in SD when the network fed it in HD, and now KLRT had another malfunction and is showing the last half of the All Star game in SD.

I switched to the international HD feed from ESPN to finish out the game.

Just another reason we should be able to CHOOSE our source of programming, and not be forced to watch what the govt tells us to.

Dmatch: That makes sense, since HD content bypasses their internal switching and processing gear. I had to laugh last time they lost HD the weather guy claimed their dish filled with water from the downpour :)

@bkb99:

Where you are in Conway can make a big difference. There is a ridge just south of Conway. Using the appropriate co-ordinates at TVFool.com indicates that just north of this ridge in Conway you will not have line-of-sight (LOS) to any of the LR/Pine Bluff Transmitters unless you have an antenna that is about 50-70 feet high (not an easy/cheap thing to do).

dmatch

YUP, I'm on the West side of Conway. TVFool says I need a 70 foot tall tower to get LOS to LR. Bummer.
Thanks for your help.
I have a Terk TV5 antenna. I can get 38.1 (KASN) and 38.2 (VTV) ~50% of the time. 4.1, 11,1, 11.2, and 16.1 come in fine.
On analog I only get 4, 7, 11, and 16.
I'm hoping to get channel 7 in digital when they move their tower back to LR. Anyone know anything more specific about that other than "prior to 2/17/2009"?

It's not so much moving their tower "back" to LR, it's more moving their tower to LR. They are technically broadcasting from LR now since they are piggybacking on 44 (aka 42's) digital signal on Shinal. But I too am looking forward to them getting their own tower back up.

YUP, I'm on the West side of Conway. TVFool says I need a 70 foot tall tower to get LOS to LR. Bummer.
Thanks for your help.
I have a Terk TV5 antenna. I can get 38.1 (KASN) and 38.2 (VTV) ~50% of the time. 4.1, 11,1, 11.2, and 16.1 come in fine.
On analog I only get 4, 7, 11, and 16.
I'm hoping to get channel 7 in digital when they move their tower back to LR. Anyone know anything more specific about that other than "prior to 2/17/2009"?If you're getting anything with a Terk TV5, you would likely get significantly more stable reception with a decent outdoor antenna and low noise preamp.

KATV intends to build a new tower on Shinall Mountain in WLR between now and February. Thousands of other TV stations across the country are also scrambling to build/modify towers and antennas to make the analog shutoff deadline, so who knows if they will meet their deadline. One thing's for sure, their analog channel will disappear on 2/17/09.

YUP, I'm on the West side of Conway. TVFool says I need a 70 foot tall tower to get LOS to LR. Bummer.
Thanks for your help.
I have a Terk TV5 antenna. I can get 38.1 (KASN) and 38.2 (VTV) ~50% of the time. 4.1, 11,1, 11.2, and 16.1 come in fine.
On analog I only get 4, 7, 11, and 16.
I'm hoping to get channel 7 in digital when they move their tower back to LR. Anyone know anything more specific about that other than "prior to 2/17/2009"?
You're welcome.

I hope you didn't interpret your no line-of-sight condition as requiring a 70' high antenna and nothing else will do. I intended to indicate that a large outdoor antenna with optional pre-amp could overcome the no line-of-sight condition. Seeing that you already get activity on KASN-DT (39/38) with an indoor antenna you aren't in too bad shape. You may not need a huge antenna like I have, just a medium sized one. You also might not need a pre-amp if you keep the cable run to the antenna less than about 50' of RG6 (NOT RG59).

Indoor antennas, when they work, sure are convenient. A lot of people just don't like messing with or looking at outdoor antennas. They can be a real hassle to install.

dmatch

A lot of people just don't like messing with or looking at outdoor antennas. They can be a real hassle to install.But once properly installed, you're through messing with an outdoor antenna for many years. Often, indoor antennas are a never ending hassle, requiring constant adjustment, depending on location and terrain.

Antennas have been around for years, and no one ever gave them much thought until cablecos began brainwashing people by constantly portraying them as ugly in their ads.

Another article on the n+k interference vulnerability of DTV receivers:
http://broadcastengineering.com/RF/FCC-DTV-interference-20070419/
This doesn't bode well at all, even in areas with otherwise descent levels of signal reception. It appears it can be really bad in areas with lower signal levels (as is my case). n+7 interference may explain what I have recently discovered with KASN-DT (39 -7 = 32). I hadn't watched it as close as the other locals (don't watch it much at all), but after looking, it appears it suffers from a higher variability in signal quality level also, but not quite as severe as what appears to be a n+2 interference between 30 and 32. I have been noticing the same garbled (stuttering) audio on 39 at times but not as often as I do on 32.

Thanx arxaw for pointing this interference phenomenon out. I wonder what the FCC will do about it? I would guess little or nothing, as it seems to me an OTA transmitter is just an excuse for "must-carry" on cable anymore. DTV really could be a great improvement, but since cable is so prevalent, I'll bet it just is not going to get done right.

dmatch

Problem with DTV is they get their feed off the air just like we can. If we have problems, they will too (except for KLRT, since the receive site is at their location, I'm going to assume that feed will be direct.

@Davenlr:

Not sure I follow.

Who are they? Are you saying that cable companies use the same OTA Digital Television (DTV) signal that we have access to (except that KLRT is different)?

Unfortunately, they (cable companies) can throw more money at getting around the problems than I and probably many other people are willing to spend. The extra hassle of receiving the OTA DTV signals and the misleading public announcements *could* send many more viewers running to cable where it is available. Where it's not available many might just set on their hands and do nothing or go to DirectTV or DishNet.

Call me pessimistic, but it appears to me that, unless the FCC/NTIA gives a lot more attention to doing this right (correcting for interference problems and other reception issues) and educating people as to the benefits of receiving OTA DTV (economics, potentially better picture than analog cable or DBS satellite etc.) this transition will NOT be beneficial in the long run to the OTA television community. It matters not if it is a planned outcome (that might be the case) or if it just happens, the result would be the same.

I hope I am wrong!

dmatch

When you said DTV I thought you were referring to DirecTV...my bad. PBS has a very good 30 second advert, that makes it perfectly clear. All the stations should follow suit.

They said "If you watch us on cable or satellite, you are good to go." If you are using a rooftop antenna or rabbit ears, and you have replaced your tv recently, you are good to go too", but if you are using an older set with your antenna, you will need either a new tv, or a converter box, available for $40-$70...and you can get a $40 off coupon from this website...."

Clear, and to the point.

There are issues with the frequency coordination. Too many short spaced (especially) VHF channels

for example:

KWBF 44 Little Rock (Shinall) KYTV 44 Springfield MO (Fordland MO

KHBS 21 Fort Smith (Cavenal Mtn OK) KPXJ 21 Shreveport

KEMV 13 Mountain View WHBQ 13 (after 2/09) Memphis KETG 13 Arkadelphia (Gurdon)

KTAL 15 Shreveport WXVT 15 (after 2/09) Greenville MS

and of course...
KARK 32 Little Rock (Shinall) WABG 32 Greenwood MS (Inverness: between G'wood and G'ville)

(Note: I had listed KETS 7 and KNOE 7 on the original post but KNOE is moving to channel 8 post transition--the later will benefit from having a more "open" channel)

When these are too tightly spaced together, those in the fringe between the two will have issues receiving unless the antenna is very directional or terrain blocks one of the stations (desired or otherwise).

Of these trouble spots the one that concerns me is KEMV and WHBQ. And also KWBF (if it goes full bore) and KYTV. KWBF should have stuck with their original ch 43 allocation (but then they would have to deal with KEJB once it flash cuts on analog 43--but KEJB is directional).

Of those you mention, I'm sure the FCC was counting on terrain blocking the signals, except the channel 7 and 32 assignments are bad, as I could pick up both Monroe and Greenwood every day when I lived downtown NLR...they are sure to cause problems when they go full power.

KNOE-DT will move from 7 to 8 next year. No problem there.

- Trip

There are issues with the frequency coordination. Too many short spaced (especially) VHF channels

for example:

KEMV 13 Mountain View WHBQ 13 (after 2/09) Memphis KETG 13 Arkadelphia (Gurdon)Add: KOAM-DT 13 Joplin/Pittsburg


KTAL 15 Shreveport WXVT 15 (after 2/09) Greenville MS
Add: KHOG-DT 15, Fayetteville

It's not so much moving their tower "back" to LR, it's more moving their tower to LR. They are technically broadcasting from LR now since they are piggybacking on 44 (aka 42's) digital signal on Shinal. But I too am looking forward to them getting their own tower back up.

I didn't realize the original tower wasn't in LR. TVfool has their distance from me as 25 miles further away than the Shinal towers today. When I click on the 2/19/09 view, they're sitting right there with the others.
I do know that I get analog 7 nearly perfectly (very slight snow), but I don't get digital 7.1 at all. I'm hoping the new tower on Shinal will fix that and I'm wondering if anyone knows when that tower is scheduled to go live?

I do know that I get analog 7 nearly perfectly (very slight snow), but I don't get digital 7.1 at all. I'm hoping the new tower on Shinal will fix that and I'm wondering if anyone knows when that tower is scheduled to go live?
7.1 Digital (KATV-DT) is being broadcast by KWBF-DT on channel 44 (virtual channel 42) and would be channel 42.3 but gets remapped by receiver to 7.1.

dmatch

They are using KTHV (11)'s backup tower on Shinal for their analog signal right now.

Last time I TVFooled myself their tower was still listed in Redfield. I guess once they get their new tower up the DB will be updated.

i have been out of the loop for a little while... does anyone know when we can expect hd locals for little rock?

Soon. As soon as D*'s recently launched D11 satellite gets parked in its final location and goes live.

This thread (http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=123236&page=212) over at DBSTalk.com has a lot of idle chatter right now. But if you follow it, you'll find out when new local HD markets will begin appearing.

I didn't realize the original tower wasn't in LR. TVfool has their distance from me as 25 miles further away than the Shinal towers today. When I click on the 2/19/09 view, they're sitting right there with the others.
I do know that I get analog 7 nearly perfectly (very slight snow), but I don't get digital 7.1 at all. I'm hoping the new tower on Shinal will fix that and I'm wondering if anyone knows when that tower is scheduled to go live?

The original 7 tower was south of Redfield at Jefferson, and was built back when the station was Pine Bluff based in 1953. Its still in use today by FM radio station KIPR 92.3 (Power 92, the hip-hop station).

The second tower (the one we all know about) came in 1965. Reportedly (and this was before I was born) that tower was an attempt to bring KATV on equal footing with KARK and KTHV in the pre-cable TV era.

From the press conference aired last week on KUAR 89.1, KATV's tower is expected to be operation by Christmas-Early January (barring weather problems). That tower will only carry KATV-DT, plus public radio stations KUAR 89.1 and KLRE 90.5.

Damn, I was sure equity would have cut a deal to move 44.x up there... That surprises me. Guess KWBF will remain a low coverage step-child.

Damn, I was sure equity would have cut a deal to move 44.x up there... That surprises me. Guess KWBF will remain a low coverage step-child.

I have doubts Equity Broadcasting will make it to 2/09...in its present form at least.

They have a substantial network of low power stations across the nation, as well as several network affiliate full power stations to foot the bills. Their distribution costs (Two sat transponders, and lots of cheap FTA receivers hooked to the low power transmitters) as well as their lack of decent pay for their employees, makes me think they (and RTN) will probably be around a while. Guess time will tell. Retrojams (music videos downloaded off the internet and broadcast) is actually a cool station to watch. They plan on using it as their XX.2 channel on most of their DT stations.

Programming note: KATV will be having a DTV transition piece on Friday's Nightside newscast.

Retrojams (music videos downloaded off the internet and broadcast) is actually a cool station to watch. They plan on using it as their XX.2 channel on most of their DT stations.

Retrojams was briefly on 42-3 between January 1, and January 11 (when it was replaced by the then KATV-SD feed). RJ replaced LatTV (which replaced Univision on 42-3). Last time I watched RJ, it was on the very low power KHUG-LP 14 that I caught once (very intense tropo between LR and Star City).

Programming note: KATV will be having a DTV transition piece on Friday's Nightside newscast.

I'll make a note to record it, as its doubtful I'll be home tomorrow night at that time. Being KATV, its uncertain the subject matter will be dealt with properly.

It will be if they asked for their Chief Engineers input :) It won't be if they used the web for their research.

I have doubts Equity Broadcasting will make it to 2/09...in its present form at least.Their stock (http://biz.yahoo.com/e/080709/emda8-k.html) is about to be de-listed from the NASDAQ.

...Programming note: KATV will be having a DTV transition piece on Friday's Nightside newscast.I never watch katv. When is Nightside on?

10pm

Is it just the 10 o'clock news?

It will be if they asked for their Chief Engineers input :)
;)

Yea, just the 10pm news.

Interesting...Equity has a new CEO? Who used to be their independent auditor? So they just need to hire a new auditor and they won't be delisted. Hopefully this new CEO isn't as cheap as the previous one.

Well, katv's segment about DTV probably left the average viewer just as confused as they were before they saw it. They sure try to push cable. Most of these things nearly always make such statements like, "your antenna won't work any more" or "you'll need to connect all TVs to cable" - which is probably all the average TV-numbed viewer remembers hearing.

They should always say:
"If you want to continue using your antenna for reception, you'll probably need to connect a converter box to your TVs if they're over a couple of years old."

And:
"Digital broadcasting is already on the air. Go ahead and convert to digital now, so there won't be any surprises after 2/17/09."

Well, katv's segment about DTV probably left the average viewer just as confused as they were before they saw it. They sure try to push cable. Most of these things nearly always make such statements like, "your antenna won't work any more" or "you'll need to connect all TVs to cable" - which is probably all the average TV-numbed viewer remembers hearing.

They should always say:
"If you want to continue using your antenna for reception, you'll probably need to connect a converter box to your TVs if they're over a couple of years old."

And:
"Digital broadcasting is already on the air. Go ahead and convert to digital now, so there won't be any surprises after 2/17/09."

I also saw that "news" item. Did katv interview their CE? Of course not, their "expert" was a Conway electronics store owner that advertises on the station. And a few shots of a BB somewhere including a clear shot of a terk antenna.

Not surprised by this half-assed katv take--Now if that subject had been the "hawgs".......

Went out today and attempted to look for the Echostar TR-40 digital converter box. Obviously BB didn't have it, so I went to Circuit City. They only had the Zenith boxes. They didn't have the DTT-900's anymore, but instead had the DTT-901's, so I got a couple of those.

I put one up in my master bedroom with a completely crappy, single pole, non-amplified antenna. I mean, this antenna is pure crap. This receiver must be one hell of a receiver, because even with that antenna, I got all the channels (except the obvious pbs ones) just fine with minimal fluttering with the "antenna". I am extremely impressed by its receiving capabilities.

I am a tiny bit disappointed with its guide, but since its going to be a bedtime tv and the occasional watching it while something else is going on tv, it should be just fine. I will try to put the other one in my son's room tomorrow with a slightly better set of non-amplified rabbit ears.

how much was the DTT-901? I was reminded today that my coupon card expires in 11 days...

Same ol' $59.99 as always. They don't want you to get out of there without paying any of your own money. :)

The Zenith tuner just can't be beat.

It is definitely worth the measly 10 extra bucks you pay for it, vs the inferior crap walmart's selling.

Its good to hear the analog pass-through version (DTT901) is as sensitive as the DTT900. Even with the high D* and E* penetration here, there are many OTA-only households. A few houses have only dishes, but most houses still have OTA antennas with or without DBS.

For those of you who are DirecTV subscribes, it appears as though the new D11 satellite is moving into its final orbital position. With any luck, we might just get Little Rock locals in HD before the fall.

Its good to hear the analog pass-through version (DTT901) is as sensitive as the DTT900. Even with the high D* and E* penetration here, there are many OTA-only households. A few houses have only dishes, but most houses still have OTA antennas with or without DBS.Same here. Even sat subscribers here use OTA to get Ark. TV, because our DMA is located in another state!

The Zenith tuner just can't be beat.

It is definitely worth the measly 10 extra bucks you pay for it, vs the inferior crap walmart's selling.
$20 :)

Its good to hear the analog pass-through version (DTT901) is as sensitive as the DTT900. Even with the high D* and E* penetration here, there are many OTA-only households. A few houses have only dishes, but most houses still have OTA antennas with or without DBS.
Haven't tried analog pass-through on it. I just used the digital tuner part. Didn't know it would let the analog stuff through. Might try it eventually. I only have it hooked up to the TV with RCA's right now.

$20 :)
Walmart RCA: $49.87
CC/RS Zenith: $59.99
Difference: about $10

Oh, yeah, duh, sorry, forgotten that Walfart wasn't at the 40 like I remember from a long time ago. I gave up on looking there so I had forgotten the price point.

For anyone who cares, D11 is pretty darn close to its final position. They have added it to the signal meter page at 99c or 99a (depending on the model receiver you have), but its all still 0's currently. We are really really really really close now.

Bring on Fox News HD so I can see how ugly O'reilly is in HD, and get KETS without having to give up my "DX" hunting antenna to get it.

Bring on Fox News HD so I can see how ugly O'reilly is in HD, and get KETS without having to give up my "DX" hunting antenna to get it.

*shudders* about BillOHD. Lou Dobbs en HD is bad enough.

For anyone who cares, D11 is pretty darn close to its final position. They have added it to the signal meter page at 99c or 99a (depending on the model receiver you have), but its all still 0's currently. We are really really really really close now.It's parked and lit up.

You should be seeing at least some xpndrs in the 90s signal strength range this morning.

Does anyone know if Directv has already signed agreements with the Little Rock locals to broadcast in HD?

Stations' owners generally don't disclose any info about retrans agreements. But since none of the LR stations is owned by any of the parent companies (like hearst-argyle, Tribune, LIN, etc.) that have caused delays with D* in other cities, reaching retrans agreements with all of them is likely.

It's parked and lit up.

You should be seeing at least some xpndrs in the 90s signal strength range this morning.
Yeah, been seeing them since yesterday morning actually. I just didn't feel like posting up anything.

Anyway, I haven't actually been seeing any signals in the 90's yet. Mainly like 77 up to 86 at the highest. Some have changed since yesterday (going down a little bit), but I am not going to worry about it until they start putting up programming off that sat. I get 80's to three low 90's off of 103(b), so I dunno if I need to tweak the dish more or not. Time will tell.

EDIT: By thinking about what I said, I felt it sounded snippy even though it wasn't my intent, so I fixed it. If anyone read that prior to my deleting the offending lines, I apologize if it sounded snippy or pissy or anything.

Yeah, been seeing them since yesterday morning actually. I just didn't feel like posting up anything.

Anyway, I haven't actually been seeing any signals in the 90's yet. Mainly like 77 up to 86 at the highest. Some have changed since yesterday (going down a little bit), but I am not going to worry about it until they start putting up programming off that sat. I get 80's to three low 90's off of 103(b), so I dunno if I need to tweak the dish more or not. Time will tell.

EDIT: By thinking about what I said, I felt it sounded snippy even though it wasn't my intent, so I fixed it. If anyone read that prior to my deleting the offending lines, I apologize if it sounded snippy or pissy or anything.

I actually tweaked my D* dish last night. I had great signal on everything expect 103 & 99. Before the tweak I was receiving low 70's on 103(c) and mid 60's on 99(c). I adjusted the azimuth with the fine adjust bolt. Now I have high 80's to low 90's on both 103 & 99. This adjustment did not lessen the signal on the other sats.

... This adjustment did not lessen the signal on the other sats.That is correct. The 101, 110 & 119 sats have a wider arc of adjustment before their signal will drop off. IIRC, this is due to the lower frequencies used on those sats. The peaks on the 99 & 103 sats are much narrower, which allows less margin of error.

You know, I may need to get someone to come over to help me tweak mine. Maybe someone from here would like to help. :) Anyway, the best I ever got the new sats strength is what I have now. I am always afraid I am going to hose it up real bad. Well, that and the wife isn't too much of a help when I am trying to tweak...I'm sure you've all been there. :)

I can do it for you this weekend or next probably, depending on work. You have a slimline or AT9?
Roof or ground mount?

You know, I may need to get someone to come over to help me tweak mine. Maybe someone from here would like to help. :) Anyway, the best I ever got the new sats strength is what I have now. I am always afraid I am going to hose it up real bad. Well, that and the wife isn't too much of a help when I am trying to tweak...I'm sure you've all been there. :)

It really wasn't that difficult, as long as you have someone that is watching the signals on the TV while you are adjusting the adjustment bolt. In my case, I had read that if your signal was good on everything expect 103 and 99, it probably just needed a slight azimuth adjustment, which in my simple mind is turning the dish in the left and right direction.

I essentially slightly loosened the two 1/2" bolts that move the azimuth. This will allow you to turn the adjustment bolt in either direction until you see the signal rise on 103 and/or 99. In my case, it was about 4 turns total. I did not touch the tilt or elevation.

I agree with you about the wife thing......my wife didn't understand why I was screwing with the dish.....cause in her mind the satellite was OK.

easiest way is to tell em to read the numbers on the weakest transponder every 5 seconds, not try to tell you high/lower. I average each move with the next 5 "report" from the house :)

Its ground mount on a pole near the back fence. (which I figure I might have problems from the trees in a season or two, but thats another story.) It is not a problem to get to at all. I am just scared of messing with it. :) My other signals are pretty good. I think they are in the 90's (haven't really looked at them in a while). I just haven't been happy at all with the 103's since it came up and now I see the 99's are in the not making me happy area too. I would love to have EVERYTHING high 90's, but that may be hard.


EDIT for meter readings from my H20-600:
101 95 91 91 98 93 97 94 97 94 93 94 0 94 95 90 95 94 0 94 60 94 94 91 95 95 0 94 0 95 97 94 98

110 95 97 95

119 92 20 91 87 95 94 94 0 94 96 94

99(a) 81 75 81 76 78 73 81 76 77 74 82 78 81 75

99(b) 0 0 0 0 0 0

103(a) 0 0 0 0 0 0 62 0 94 51 0 0 0 0 64 43

103(b) 93 90 88 87 87 85 85 84 85 81 87 81 85 81 94 91

Now, keep in mind, these readings on the 103(b) are a result of my screwing with it once already. I figure if I had help from someone who knew what they were doing and which ones would be the ones to fiddle with, I might get better.

Not if you have an Andrews AT9. Those are good readings for an AT9. If its a slimline, they are about 5 points low on 103c.

Yeah, forgot to mention which dish I had. I am not using the AT9 (if I remember correct, its the one with the odd little extra LNB off to the side with a couple of wires running to the main feedhorn). I have the new slimline if I am not mistaken. Its been a while since I even bothered to look at the type of dish I have, so I have forgotten. All I know for certain is that its the newer one as I just got it installed like last October I think it was.

Yea, that's the slimlline. Check the pole and see if its plumb with a inclinometer, and see what they have the tilt set at.

it should be plumb still. the guy set it in concrete. if its not perfectly plumb, its pretty damn close to it. and the tilt is fine as far as what the receiver says. I have checked that several times already. from everything I have looked at on it, its set up right.

reason I asked is most people use a bubble level or plumb bob. An inclinometer would show exactly. If its 2 degrees off plumb in the east or west direction, you would have to compensate by adding/subtracting tilt.

The guy used some kind of plastic level that clamped onto the side and had multiple bubbles for leveling it. Looked a lot better to me than anything I would have used, but no where near as accurate as an inclinometer.

What ss readings are y'all getting on DirecTV:
99s, xpndr 4
103s, xpndr 17

99s, xpndr 4....0
103s, xpndr 17....85

99s - All zeros
103s - 15 @ 65, 17 @ 91, 18 @ 68, 23 @ 72, 24 @ 54

99s (which is 99b on my H20-600):
nada

103s (which is 103a on my H20-600):
15 = 60
17 = 94
18 = 53
23 = 62
24 = 41
I am fairly sure that 15, 17, and 18 have always been on for me. Not sure about 23 & 24.

Whats so special about TP 4 on 99s? Do you have something there?

Whats so special about TP 4 on 99s? Do you have something there?Just wondered what people farther south from me were getting. I'm trying to figure out what cities may be on the strongest spot beams I get.

Here are my spot beam readings:

99s
1=0
2=0
3=25
4=98 (probably Tulsa)
5=0
6=92 (probably KCMO or STL)

103s:
15=42
16=59
17=94
18=60
19=65
20=58
21=0
22=0
23=50
24=23

103s tp 17 is in the 90's nationwide. I believe its being used as a conus beam until d11 goes live, then they are going to recover tp 17 for spots. Those 99s spaceway beams are tight. You in the high 90's and not a blip here.

103s tp 17 is in the 90's nationwide. I believe its being used as a conus beam until d11 goes live, then they are going to recover tp 17 for spots...Thanks, I didn't know any of the "s" transponders were CONUS (CONtinental US) coverage.


Those 99s spaceway beams are tight. You in the high 90's and not a blip here.Which will probably mean just the opposite for the LR spot beam!