This was released this morning. Good news for both Little Rock and NWA.

http://dtv.client.shareholder.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=324647

Tusk, thanks!

Damn, Tusk beat me to it! :)

Alison, since DirecTV has officially announced that we are getting the local HD feeds from all you guys, can you tell us now about the time frame we are looking at here? Or are you still under an NDA until a little closer to the turn on date?

Question not really related to the local area HD stuff.

I was wondering a few things about the R15 DirecTV DVR. I found it for sale somewhere, but am not real sure about if the price for it is any good or how long I will have to buy it.

One thing, how old is it? Anyone got any idea?

And the other thing, I am 99.9999% sure its not HD, but can it even get stuff in mpeg-4 or what all is it able to do? Will it be able to do work for much time to come? I was looking at it for my son's room to put all the spiderman, batman, and superman episodes and the sort on it.

I have looked at the manual for it, but am still not sure what all it would do. So, if anyone knows anything about the R15 specs wise, please let me know. I would greatly appreciate any information you can give me on this.

Damn, Tusk beat me to it! :)

Alison, since DirecTV has officially announced that we are getting the local HD feeds from all you guys, can you tell us now about the time frame we are looking at here? Or are you still under an NDA until a little closer to the turn on date?

NDA? Do you mean digital retransmission agreements? If so, I would imagine all of the paperwork is in place between TV and satellite by now, so we are just all waiting on deployment.

Question not really related to the local area HD stuff.It is standard def. It is mpeg2 only and AFAIK, not being installed by D* any more. Very soon, all of their DVRs (both SD & HD) will be mpeg4.

To activate it, it will cost you $20 for a new access card.
If the box is stolen or is from an old account in bad standing, D* won't activate it.

A new SD DVR may be had for next to nothing from D* if you are out of contract and threaten to switch to another provider.

NDA? Do you mean digital retransmission agreements? If so, I would imagine all of the paperwork is in place between TV and satellite by now, so we are just all waiting on deployment.

Not sure if you are just unfamiliar with the term or what the specific ? was for.

NDA = Non-Disclosure Agreement. Formal definition: a contract whereby one promises to treat information confidentially and not give out information without proper authorization. Its just to keep anticipation up, or to protect other interests in case the deal goes sour, until a date at which the announcement is beneficial to all parties involved.

I was just unsure if there were such legal limitations on people at the television stations in regards to the launch date of our local HD's via satellite or not given that we really don't know for a definite fact of when actual signals will be coming down (even though those dates are getting closer to being figured out). Thats the reason I was asking if you are able to tell us anything now. I figured that, with us being this close, any NDA you guys might be under might have been removed or something.

Oh well, just thought I would give it a shot anyway.

It is standard def. It is mpeg2 only and AFAIK, not being installed by D* any more. Very soon, all of their DVRs (both SD & HD) will be mpeg4.

To activate it, it will cost you $20 for a new access card.
If the box is stolen or is from an old account in bad standing, D* won't activate it.

A new SD DVR may be had for next to nothing from D* if you are out of contract and threaten to switch to another provider.

I'm familiar with all the costs and requirements for activating another receiver. I just wasn't sure about the usefulness of this particular receiver.

Going off the specs you listed for it, it does not sound like its worth getting at all. While it might work for a little while, it sounds like it might not be usable in the foreseeable future. Probably wouldn't work after the first of the year maybe, dunno, just don't think its worth the risk or the $50 + $20 I would have to shell out to get it going. I was thinking about getting it strictly for SD childrens content, nothing else at all. I will just pass on it though I guess and not worry about it.

Not sure if you are just unfamiliar with the term or what the specific ? was for.

NDA = Non-Disclosure Agreement. Formal definition: a contract whereby one promises to treat information confidentially and not give out information without proper authorization. Its just to keep anticipation up, or to protect other interests in case the deal goes sour, until a date at which the announcement is beneficial to all parties involved.

I was just unsure if there were such legal limitations on people at the television stations in regards to the launch date of our local HD's via satellite or not given that we really don't know for a definite fact of when actual signals will be coming down (even though those dates are getting closer to being figured out). Thats the reason I was asking if you are able to tell us anything now. I figured that, with us being this close, any NDA you guys might be under might have been removed or something.

Oh well, just thought I would give it a shot anyway.

We haven't been told any dates. They did not contact us when they launched local TV the first time around. They did say they plan to switch the local feed over from analog to digital in September. But that of course is different from HD locals.

We haven't been told any dates. They did not contact us when they launched local TV the first time around. They did say they plan to switch the local feed over from analog to digital in September. But that of course is different from HD locals.
Ahh, I see. You would think they would want to make sure everything they can do to make sure there is a good quality uplink would be done by communicating with the stations. Then again, if they can just grab the signal off the air, thats just as easy too.

To be completely honest with you, its quite obvious that they didn't talk to you guys at all before or since the launch of the SD locals. The signal is obviously coming off rabbit ears or something less than spectacular. No offense, the quality of your stations picture on DirecTV is pretty darn crappy. Hopefully the digital uplink will solve that once and for all.

And as far as your comment about switching the feed from analog to digital in September, it stands to reason that they will include any HD programming you guys air as well. I mean, if you are going to go as far as going digital, you might as well go the extra 20 feet to make it full HD capable. :)

Thanks for your input.

Ahh, I see. You would think they would want to make sure everything they can do to make sure there is a good quality uplink would be done by communicating with the stations. Then again, if they can just grab the signal off the air, thats just as easy too.

To be completely honest with you, its quite obvious that they didn't talk to you guys at all before or since the launch of the SD locals. The signal is obviously coming off rabbit ears or something less than spectacular. No offense, the quality of your stations picture on DirecTV is pretty darn crappy. Hopefully the digital uplink will solve that once and for all.

And as far as your comment about switching the feed from analog to digital in September, it stands to reason that they will include any HD programming you guys air as well. I mean, if you are going to go as far as going digital, you might as well go the extra 20 feet to make it full HD capable. :)

Thanks for your input.

With the exception of KLRT, both satellite companys pick us up off the air. There is no direct feed to them like with Comcast and AT&T and what's more there is no one actually there watching or checking levels regularly. A bit of a disappointment.

With the exception of KLRT, both satellite companys pick us up off the air. There is no direct feed to them like with Comcast and AT&T and what's more there is no one actually there watching or checking levels regularly. A bit of a disappointment.
Heh, yeah, figured as much. They all have an opportunity to look less than stellar every now and then. It is VERY disappointing sometimes, so I just switched to digital OTA for everything (except for 2, and thats a different gripe completely). KLRT is understandable though with looking good on DirecTV. You know, with them being at the uplink facility and all. Kinda silly to NOT have a direct feed into it. :)

CBS News had no audio for two minutes (5:30-5:32) before KTHV reverted to the SD feed. Katie Couric was very filtered for the short time HD was up.

CBS News had no audio for two minutes (5:30-5:32) before KTHV reverted to the SD feed. Katie Couric was very filtered for the short time HD was up.
LOL, they are transmitting the CBS news in HD? I haven't tried to watch in sooooo long. I prefered NBC's cause it just looked pretty.

EDIT:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Sorry, its just funny. Right now Katie is on there talking about how they are broadcasting in HD and how most people had noticed. I understand there are problems sometimes in broadcasting, I just find it humerous that they are talking about how they are in HD, but yet we couldn't get it in that right now. Maybe tomorrow.

CBS News had no audio for two minutes (5:30-5:32) before KTHV reverted to the SD feed. Katie Couric was very filtered for the short time HD was up.

It's apparently a network issue. WSPA and WTRK had the same issue.

Hmm, that makes it a little more humerous if the network itself had to kick it down, but still talked about it.

Steveken, I have a Hughes E86 (mpeg2HD with OTA) you can have if you just want a receiver for the kids. If you need a dvr, that's a different story. My parents had a R15...software was terrible. Reboot every day....it was horrible.

Just to make sure, am I right to assume that any mpeg2 equipment will become useless in the future? I mean, I am under the impression that they are trying to get away from that. I just want to know if I am right in this thought, or if it will continue to be around for a while to come?

Davenlr, thanks for the offer. I might take you up on it in the future depending on the answer to the above paragraph. :) The biggest thing about the prospect of the R15 was the DVR part. At any given time our HR20 has a TON of cartoons on it. I mean, I went through there the other day and saw we had 4 batman, 5 spiderman, 3 superman, 3 backyardigans, 3 mickey mouse clubhouse, and like a diego or two. I know we don't need all that on there, we just keep it on there because we have no idea what his taste is going to be at that particular time. I just thought it would be nice to have a dvr dedicated to his crap. :) Ya know? hehehehe

They won't convert SD Mpeg2 to Mpeg4 any time in the next few years. There are way to many SD subscribers. I wouldn't expect any NEW channels in mpeg2 tho. Except for a few cities with mpeg4 SD LIL's, I don't think there are any non-HD mpeg4 channels. You should be ok for a couple years with SD DVR, and if they DID convert to all MPeg4, they will surely offer upgrades for the equipment like they did with the HD-Tivo that couldn't get mpeg4.

My concern would be the reliability. Check the R15 dvr group on dbstalk as see if they ever fixed the software. We had to reformat my parents hard drive at least once a month, and Directv swapped it out at least 3 times.

I would be more concerned about final cost: cost of box + access card, and whether D* will even activate it (not a stolen box, etc.). Especially when you can often talk D* out of a freebie SD DVR by calling retention dept. (say CANCEL at the voice prompt). If not free, they'll often cover the cost via programming credits.

No, mpeg2 SD DVRs won't be obsolete for a while. But very soon, all new DVRs will be MPEG4 capable.

arxaw, you always seem concerned that I am getting stolen or otherwise questionable equipment for some reason. Thank you for your concern and for your trying to look out for me. Rest assured, when I get things, I make sure that they are legitimate and usable.

If you really need to know about this situation, the person that I was thinking about getting the box from switched over to Dish and had a couple of these boxes laying around. They were offered for $50 a piece, which I think is way too high.

Also, if you will remember correctly, not too long ago (i.e. less than 1 year) is when I went back to DirecTV from Comcast. I know the policy and procedures for getting new equipment for free, at reduced cost, or by threats of leaving. Just know that I know how things work with DirecTV, so you don't have to worry about the possibility of my getting ripped off or paying more than I should.

When it comes to being cheap and trying to get things for free, I am usually overly diligent on that front. I am not the type of person that pays more than I have to for an item. (Well, except for the newest iPhone. I definitely paid more than I should have if only I could have waited for a while.)

Again, thanks for your concern and message of caution. I appreciate it, but when it comes to trying to get stuff out of DirecTV, I am usually better than a whiny kid trying to get candy. :)

CBS got it right tonight. Glorious HD AND audio. :)

You know, steveken, I really don't give a damn what you do.

Hey, guys. I just moved to Little Rock (Maumelle, actually) from Chapel Hill, NC. I was really disappointed to find out that Directv didn't carry the locals in HD yet. I guess I got spoiled back home.

Anyway, I'm trying to set up some antennas, and I had a few questions.

1) which stations are actually broadcasting HD content OTA?
2) does anyone have a timeline (other than the "by the end of the year" that directv gives) as to when they might be available over satellite?
3) has anyone had success getting all the major stations OTA in/near Maumelle? If so, what is your setup?

1) Pretty much all the stations around here broadcast HD content OTA at some point. (Well, except for 25.1, but I have no idea what they show really...its a christian channel.) With 2 and 42 you just have to time it right when they are actually doing HD.

2) Alison (who works for KTHV) says that DirecTV has told them that they will be switching from the analog feed to the digital feed in September. To me, that means thats when we will start seeing locals in HD from the sat. I mean, it only makes sense because D11 is already showing good signs of life from up there and thats where our locals in HD are going to come from. So, just wait till the end of September.

3) Given the fact that you are still within like 30 miles or so from the towers on Shinall Mountain, you should be able to get all of them. The only exceptions to the rule are 38 and 2 which are out in Redfield which is just north of Pine Bluff. 38 has great signal strength to pretty much everyone in the center of the state if I am not mistaken. 2 is just on a crappy channel and does not pump out near enough power to get their signal more than 300 feet from the tower without a hell of an amp and a REALLY tall tower.

That answer your questions? :)

99s has now got 16 transponders showing on it. All of them are still 0's for me.

Everyone wanting locals from DirecTV might wanna read this post.....have to go verify it myself too. No idea if its real or not as the person putting it up only has 2 posts to his credit.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1706400&postcount=6607

Just looked at another link:

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/moreInfoText.jsp?assetId=1620002

DAMN IT!! October! Oh well, at least they are a-comin! :)

Everyone wanting locals from DirecTV might wanna read this post.....have to go verify it myself too. No idea if its real or not as the person putting it up only has 2 posts to his credit.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showpost.php?p=1706400&postcount=6607

Just looked at another link:

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/moreInfoText.jsp?assetId=1620002

DAMN IT!! October! Oh well, at least they are a-comin! :)

Yes but we have heard that "They are a-comin" line before. I will believe them when I see them.

Yes but we have heard that "They are a-comin" line before. I will believe them when I see them.
Ahh, but thats coming directly from DirecTV. They have never said a date for our HD LiL's before. I believe it, personally.

DirecTv had us on their list for HD locals by the fall of 2006. I called and verified it with them. Then for whatever reason, they added some podunk DMA's instead. That's when I had to go install a OTA antenna at my parents house.

Really? I had never seen that anywhere. Interesting.....well, anyway, I see absolutely no reason what-so-ever why we wouldn't get them this time around.

I wonder if the "Mena" residents will be LR, Ft. smith, or keep getting DNS? I can't imagine the HD spot for LR will be 300 miles wide. The SD spot isn't even that big. Mena isn't far from Ft. Smith tho...but think its in LR's DMA.

I really wish something would be done about Nielsen and their stupid ass market areas. I mean they REALLY need to be redone and rethought out. I just hate the way some places are within a so-called area when they really are closer or just as close to another.

Its just like the fed government, sometimes I think the whole thing needs to be scrapped and started all over again from square one. Maybe that way things might get done right. After you live with things a certain way for so long, they tend to become irrelevant and obsolete and need to be done for the sake of keeping current.

Firstly, they need to scrap the whole system. If a local tv statin sucks, you should be able to pay to watch one that doesn't.

I used to subscribe to NY, LA, and Denver. I work odd hours, and if I missed an episode cuz I got home at 9, I just flipped over to LA. Storm maps on, flip to NY. Had several superstations too. Then the feds said...oh no, you can't watch that. You might miss a commercial for North Point Auto's BIG WEEKEND SALE....

Well, I can still get the NY stations on C Band (The are broadcast to the small Islands in the Caribbean on C Band, but in SD)... And thanks to Equity, can watch ABC and NBC from Mountain time zone, again, SD. ABC is nice enough to actually feed their HD stuff in the clear, so can watch ABC Hd too. NBC I could watch, with a different receiver, but not worth $2000 to get one of those. CW and MyTv are HD, and CBS needs a bigger dish than I have, so almost have em all... But the whole point is, Comcast should be able to carry Memphis, Jonesboro, Ft Smith....just for people that want to watch it.

Cack when Cable was CATV (Community Antenna for TeleVision), they stuck a bunch of big ass antennas on a tall tower, and you could watch locals from two or three cities, and a couple sat channels like HBO... Now, I don't think they even allow the cable companies to carry out of market locals, even if they can get them OTA at their receive site. Its just wrong.

WOW! Did I hit a nerve or something, Dave? lol Just kidding. I remember the old CATV days I think. I think I was old enough for it. I completely and wholeheartedly agree with you on all of it. The only problem is these people that run this crap have a WHOLE lot more money than we could ever hope for, so they aren't going to do anything except what they wanna do. Oh well.....c'est la vie. (I think I spelled that right.)

I hear pro NAB-Broadcaster types **** and moan that allowing "national" feeds will kill "localism". Facts are these days save for the local sports, and local news, there is no locally produced programming of note. Airing Oprah, Judge Judy, or "Walk Fit" infomercials isn't "localism".

Lift the silly DMA rules, and allow the TV viewer in Little Rock, Fayetteville, Dumas, or Glendive MT (DMA #210) the same choice in network programming that someone in NYC or Los Angeles does. This system is allowed to continue because of the NFL/MLB (local blackout rules), the NAB, and Nielson's collusion...and campaign contributions to Congress.

Heck if Univision and....ahem...Ion can have dual National Sat and OTA distribution, why not major networks such as NBC, ABC, CBS, and FOX.

Hey, guys. I just moved to Little Rock (Maumelle, actually) from Chapel Hill, NC. I was really disappointed to find out that Directv didn't carry the locals in HD yet. I guess I got spoiled back home.I'm in Maumelle too (Country Club of AR). With my glorified rabbit ears I can usually get 11, 16, and 4 in HD. Nothing else.

Welcome to Arkansas. I'm a San Diego transplant.

Why do people come HERE of all places? LOL, just kidding.

Why do people come HERE of all places? LOL, just kidding.Systematics job transfer in '92. Laid off in 2001 by Alltel. You just can't win sometimes.:rolleyes:

It just popped in a few minutes ago...but the time is *way* off, almost a sesquihour. Someone at Crain Media needs to take a look at this. BTW, that is the relay of AETN KTWN has been broadcasting.

Those folks (KTWN-LD) are really asleep at the wheel. They almost make KWBF-DT/KKYK-DT look professional (KWBF-DT's time and DST flag is off and they have inaccurate EPG data). KTWN-LD's time has never been correct and they have never sent any EPG data. The day before yesterday they ran a green screen on 18.2 (AETN re-broadcast) with audio only most of the day. At times in the past browser windows/crash screens have remained open and visible for hours at a time on their subchannels.

This brings to mind a question:

Do low power digital channels have to abide by the same FCC regulations regarding PSIP data as do full power DTV stations?

The time alloted by FCC for implementing a 12-hour accurate EPG/time (to within 1 second) has long since passed. It is about time to file complaints about KWBF-DT and KTWN-LD (if they are not exempt).

dmatch

So, has anyone heard how the new channel 7 (KATV) tower on Chenal Mt. is progressing? Have they even started on it? I have not heard anything about it in several months.

Was there a crash of this forum or something and the most recent backup they had was 8/1/08? I ask because that is the most recent entry I am seeing and I know I had made a posting on the 8th about the olympics. Or has stuff been deleted?

yes, posts from 8/2- 8/10 are history

Hmm, wonder what happened.

Yep! They had to restore from backup. See "Home" page.

dmatch

Yeah, you're right on, there is a note on the main page about the crash. I've been trying to get on here since 8 am. I glad it's back up, I was afraid I was actually going to have to do some work. :)

Anyway, I did have something to gripe about on here though, before I left for work this morning, I tuned in briefly to KETS-DT to see the season premiere and high-def premiere of "Sesame Street" and of course, AETN in their infinite wisdom kept it in SD. I understand the target audience don't care, but still it's a high profile show, and an important step, so I was hoping they would choose to show it in HD.

Oh, lol, I never go to the homepage on here. I have hard enough time finding this forum if I don't have a direct link to it, so I just choose to keep it here. :) (I don't know why I have such a hard time finding this forum, I just do. hehe)

Sesame Street finally went widescreen HD? Thats so cool. I will have to turn on my PBS-HD feed on my computer to record it I guess. I still have no chance in hell of getting KETS OTA. :)

Now RockyF! Did you really expect otherwise.:rolleyes:

They (KETS-DT) very seldom turn off their 3 extra channels to do HD and, apparently, do not wish to re-organize their bandwidth assignments to accommodate a full-time HD (Lite?) channel.

dmatch

Now RockyF! Did you really expect otherwise.:rolleyes:

dmatch

No I guess not, I have this bad habit of being an optimist. I'll learn eventually. :)

Well, one can hope Directv will add PBS-HD national this wednesday when its rumored they are going to turn on some new ones. I'm not holding my breath tho. Anyone wanting PBS-HD, Ill be glad to assist you in putting up a 1.2m dish to get it direct...

Anyone wanting PBS-HD, Ill be glad to assist you in putting up a 1.2m dish to get it direct...
Free? :) Gotta try. :)

Install is free...you provide the equipment and cables :)

any Comcast QAM users have their locals remapped and/or disappear? I leave for a week and come back to find the channels aren't there. My re-scan found one set of channels that are the guide to using Comcast's EPG. Usually it would find the locals + NBA League Pass preview + neverending movie previews. I don't think it's my tuner, at least I hope not...

Just rescanned yesterday or the day before and it was fine. Had to rescan cause PBS-HD wasn't tuning. Of course, its still not showing the actual channel when I try to watch it in GBPVR for some reason, but it can at least record from it and I can watch the recording later.

Gentlemen with D*... D11 (99w spot beam) transponder 22, giving me a 92 signal...has been all 0's up until today... Let's hope this is the OTA's ready to fire up.

I have 22 AND 23 lit up on mine. 22 is at 82, while 23 is at 91. I really hope this is a good sign and we don't have to wait until October.

Wow, two more, 15, and 23 at 100% here, 19 and 22 at 95%

Indeed, 15 = 98, 19 = 93, 21 = 90, 22 = 82, 23 = 98

looks like LR and Ft Smith both fired up at once... Nice.

I'm just glad to see such high readings on them. Means little rain fade unlike the rest of the 99's which, to me, are a little low.

I'm curious if they use more FEC on the locals than the nationals, which would account for the higher readings, or if its just that the power is more concentrated. I can't believe they are running the spot transponders at the same power level as the conus.

I think you might have been looking at the 101 satellite. Thats just way too many transponders for the 99 satellite. And, just in case it wasn't clear previously, we are talking about 99(s) on the HR series receivers, and 99(b) on the H series receivers.

I think you might have been looking at the 101 satellite. Thats just way too many transponders for the 99 satellite. And, just in case it wasn't clear previously, we are talking about 99(s) on the HR series receivers, and 99(b) on the H series receivers.

Yes I was, my mistake:o I accidentally had moved to 101. I'll recheck 99 this time. I notice there is 99(a)= 14 transponders and 99(b) = 24 transponders

At the Signal Strength page, mine says....Satellite Transponders(16 Total at 99(b)

99 (b)

1 - 0
2 - 0
3 - 0
4 - 94
5 - 0
6 - 90

15 - 100
16 -0
17 - 0
18 - 0
19 -100
20 - 0
21 - 100
22 - 100
23 - 100
24 - 0

Does anyone know how many Locals in HD Direct will deliver? I know NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX. Is PBS on the list also? How about UPN or 38.1 and KWBF42.1? Probably wont be able to get both the LR and FS markets, currently I get LR only.

I did get my DNS HD's turned on thanks to Arxaw who told me about it. I got 82 NBCE, 86 ABCE and 88 FOXE. Didnt get CBSE because KFSM 5 out of Fort Smith denied me with a grade B coverage. I dont uderstand them, they dont even claim to cover my area any longer but they claim to cover my area, dont make any sense. Either they do or they dont, currently they dont since going digital. KFSM needs to put in for a second transponder to serve the folks in the river valley if they want to deny me access to CBS HD.

Not sure, but its looking like 15 and 23 are Little Rock, and 19, 21 and 22 are NWA from the signal reports I've been emailed. Looking up...

I wouldn't think that 19, 21, and 22 are NWA because their signal levels are way too high for us here. I would imagine that if they are for up there, they would be a LOT weaker for us. It only makes sense that we would be on the fringe of their usable area just like they are for us. Remember when arxaw put up his levels how some of them were really strong for us, but he hardly got a 50 or so? I don't remember when it was, but I seem to remember a situation like that occuring.

In my further attempts to get us PBS-HD listings here I am in direct contact with someone at Tribune Media Services trying to get them as much information as I can about where to find the data they need to populate the EPG properly. I have given the lady I am talking to 4 examples of data she would need. I am also citing the exact place to look on their own web pages for this data. Hopefully it won't be too much longer.

I get mine from KDIN-DT. Its perfect except for an occasional locally produced HD program on Saturday mornings.

I got ARxaw's 99s readings in an Email, and he is getting 95's on the ones we are getting 100 on, and we are getting 95's on the ones he is getting 100 on. D11's beams are much wider than the Spaceways we have been watching previously. I'm getting 70's on Memphis' beam on D10... Since OKC and Tulsa have their own, I'm sure D* isn't going to bullseye the beam on Ft. Smith. Little Rocks DMA goes to the OKLA state line, but stops about Forrest City going east, so its probably centered west of LR. Won't know til they turn on some channels and I can spot check the signals while I'm on lunch breaks in the boonies.

Just a quick note. Took all my antennas down, mounted the DAT75 (UHF Yagi) on the rotor, added a CM7777 preamp. KTWN-LP in Searcy went from 12% and unlockable to 85% with full lock. All the LR stations come in at 100% with antenna pointed toward Searcy, INCLUDING KETS-DT at 75%... unreal. Bring on the tropo.

WOAH!!! Lucky you! Must be nice.

Now, whatcha goin to do with all those old antennae? :)

Just out of curiosity... We are watching the Olympics here on a rented Mitsu WD-60735 (the wife is a big fan). From where we are seated, everything is great most of the time. There is, of course, blocking during rapid motion (watching beach vball right now). I guess I'm just a bit curious as to where along the pipeline they are occurring. I'm using SuddenLink for cable so I was wondering if perhaps they are compressing the feed they get from KARK. I've attached a few photos I took from about a foot away of light background, dark background, and high motion. Perhaps someone who is watching this OTA could do a quick visual compare. Thanks :D

-MDG

You know, I keep hearing people talk about blocking during high motion. I have yet to see anything.

Just a quick note. Took all my antennas down, mounted the DAT75 (UHF Yagi) on the rotor, added a CM7777 preamp. KTWN-LP in Searcy went from 12% and unlockable to 85% with full lock. All the LR stations come in at 100% with antenna pointed toward Searcy, INCLUDING KETS-DT at 75%... unreal. Bring on the tropo.

Dave, How do you think the DAT75 would work for me here in Yell County? Considering that I usually get good reception with my CM 3671 crossfire.

Did you get yours from Ultra Satellite and Antenna Voodoo?http://www.ultrasatellite.com/

You know, I keep hearing people talk about blocking during high motion. I have yet to see anything.

His Sudden Link cable may not actually be providing an HD feed. There are so many factors. He may not have the tv hooked up properly either. Like you steve, I have been watching it on KARK 4.1 HD and Directv Ch 392 NBCEHD and have had no blocking or pixel problems since the Olympics came on. I use the Sony SXRD KDS-60a2020. Now if I get within a foot of the screen I can see some pixeling but you are not suppose to watch the tv from 1 foot away. I believe for my 60" screen about 10-12 feet is ideal and we sit about 12 feet away from ours.

Just out of curiosity... We are watching the Olympics here on a rented Mitsu WD-60735 (the wife is a big fan). From where we are seated, everything is great most of the time. There is, of course, blocking during rapid motion (watching beach vball right now). I guess I'm just a bit curious as to where along the pipeline they are occurring.

I see something similar to your third jpeg on my 32" Vizio around the logo when viewing the KARK-DT OTA signal during fast camera pans. It is hard to say it's the same as what you are seeing since the example jpegs make the logo look much bigger than what I see on my TV. I have to get very close to see it (less than about 2 feet).

dmatch

@MilSF1:

After looking at more of the Olympics from less than 2 feet away and looking at your jpegs again I now have to say that there is something amiss with your picture as compared to OTA-HD, if that is what it is. What I am seeing is similar in that the logo is a little blurred but with what I would call mosquito noise and not the bigger puzzle blocks that your Jpeg shows. Do you think this is HD? Is it in 16:9 format or 4:3?

The jpegs have more of a converted look to me, like it has been converted from NTSC to digital SD. I say this because of the jagged lines in the logo, that look similar to the OTA NTSC conversion to digital SD on my set. I don't think the SD on my TV looks that blocky though.

Sorry, I didn't look closer the first time.

dmatch

Dave, How do you think the DAT75 would work for me here in Yell County? Considering that I usually get good reception with my CM 3671 crossfire.

I compared it against my Channel Master VHF/UHF Quantum, which is the fringe vhf, deepest fringe uhf model. On the Searcy low power station, I got 15 to 25% signal on the DAT75, and just an occasional blip on the Channel Master. Definantly has more gain than a combo antenna. Don't know how it would stack up against a domestic long yagi UHF. I bought mine directly from Europe.

The disadvantage, it doesn't do VHF, so you would still need to use the current antenna for VHF.

Just out of curiosity... wondering if perhaps they are compressing the feed they get

Ok, NBC getting feed from China via Fiber. Goes to NBC HQ in NY. Unknown what format. From there, NBC encodes using MPEg2 to sat, to Channel 4, who adds the stream to a ATSC wrapper and sends it to suddenlink. They decode and recompress using QAM.

I'm watching via Mpeg4 directly from New York on directv. PQ is noticably better than KARK OTA. This is probably because Directv is getting the feed via fiber. There is a LITTLE macroblocking on the waves in moving water, but the rest is stunning. KARK OTA is OK, but has more macroblocking. Don't have cable hooked to anything, so can't compare comcasts feed.

I compared it against my Channel Master VHF/UHF Quantum, which is the fringe vhf, deepest fringe uhf model. On the Searcy low power station, I got 15 to 25% signal on the DAT75, and just an occasional blip on the Channel Master. Definantly has more gain than a combo antenna. Don't know how it would stack up against a domestic long yagi UHF. I bought mine directly from Europe.

The disadvantage, it doesn't do VHF, so you would still need to use the current antenna for VHF.

Davenlr, I am a little confused. I thought you got 85% on the Searcy LP (KTWN) and 75% on the VHF channel KETS-DT.

Are these latest numbers with or without a pre-amp?

dmatch

Yea, without amp, DAT75 was 15-25%, Quantum was 0-12%. With amp, DAT75 is 85%. Haven't tried the amp on the quantum yet.

Edit: As for KETS-DT (5-x), on DAT75 w/o amp, no signal at all. On quantum without amp, pointed directly at station, 75%.

For 12.x, DAT75 w/o amp gave me a 100% BUT I had to point the antenna 20 degrees off the actual heading to get 12.x, which caused the UHF stations at the same location to drop into the 40's. Its VERY directional on UHF, and appears its high VHF coverage (which its not designed for) is good, but off axis by 20 degrees. Make sense or confuse you more?

Yea, without amp, DAT75 was 15-25%, Quantum was 0-12%. With amp, DAT75 is 85%. Haven't tried the amp on the quantum yet.

Does your quantum have the on board chipboard Amp with housing in between the double boom? I still have my old Quantum 1160a which is 16 feet long but I dont use it anymore. My Quantum was better at picking up the VHF channels than my Crossfire. However, the crossfire does a better job on the uhfs above 16. From your readings above, I bet your quantum is gonna be in the 70% range with amp in place on the searcy channel.

Mine is the 1162 without the cartridge amp.

If you could put a DAT75 above your quantum, feed the quantum into the VHF, DAT into UHF on a 7777, you should have the best gain you can get, but very directional.

Make sense or confuse you more?
Yeah, that makes more sense. Part of the confusion was:
Took all my antennas down, mounted the DAT75 (UHF Yagi) on the rotor, added a CM7777 preamp.
I thought that would mean everything following that in the original post applied to only the DAT75 and that you were getting KETS-DT (VHF 5) on a UHF antenna at 75%.

Wow, thought I. I could have had a DAT75 instead of a 91XG and got everything.;)

Thanks for clarifying.

dmatch

I did confuse you then. I am getting 5.x on the DAT75 with the amp, but without the amp, I can't even get the signal meter to move off 0...so I don't know where the amp is getting the signal from :)... but its there...probably the UHF reflector is acting as a director for 5.x, since its coming in off the back. If I point it AT 5.x, I get zip.

The 91XG and DAT75 are comparable. Think the 91 has more gain in the low uhf range, and the DAT has more into the high range...If I recall the field tests they ran on the two a couple years ago. Thread is on here somewhere.
What I am shocked about, is that the crossfire is outperforming the Quantum 1160a.

There is a LITTLE macroblocking on the waves in moving water, but the rest is stunning. KARK OTA is OK, but has more macroblocking.

The time that I see quite a bit of blocking is when they wipe the NBC logo/Olympic rings over the screen when they go to and from a replay. If you're not getting macroblocking during that, then I'm impressed.

For those asking, yes, this is the HD feed. That third photo was during one of those logo sweeps. Give me a little credit here guys :p For 99% of the time, I have to look VERY closely to see anything wrong - obviously way closer than we are actually watching it.

-MDG

I have actually seen no blocking on my SXRD. I used to have a 65" Mits CRT. It had a great Picture too. But it had blocking problems with fast motion sports. I never noticed it in anything else like movies, only sports like Football. I've had my Sony for 1 year now. I have never noticed blocking on it with anything, not with HD, not with standard def. But, my tv is a 1080p tv also and if I've read up correctly on it, it tries to upscale every signal that it takes in. Now we all know upscaling a standard picture can help a little but not a huge difference. But what about 1080i and 720p feeds. They are already near perfection and apparently the tv ups it a little more and outputs a slightly better picture with no pixel problems. My tv has the 60hz refresh rate, I hear the new Sony's with the 120hz refresh rate are simply amazing and nearly flawless in the way they handle fast motion

The time that I see quite a bit of blocking is when they wipe the NBC logo/Olympic rings over the screen when they go to and from a replay. If you're not getting macroblocking during that, then I'm impressed.

For those asking, yes, this is the HD feed. That third photo was during one of those logo sweeps. Give me a little credit here guys :p For 99% of the time, I have to look VERY closely to see anything wrong - obviously way closer than we are actually watching it.

-MDG

I wasn't trying to criticize you, its just that all those things have to be in place first. The Mits TV your using, is it DLP, LCD? Whats its Native Res? 1080p? 1080i? 720p?
My old Mits CRT was 1080i native. During football games broadcast by ABC 720p, I never had pixel problems. But when I'd watch SEC football on CBS 1080i, I always had pixel problems during the games.

I wasn't trying to criticize you, its just that all those things have to be in place first. The Mits TV your using, is it DLP, LCD? Whats its Native Res? 1080p? 1080i? 720p?

Oh, I know no criticism involved. :D I'm putting out 1080i over component to a WD-60735 which is a 1080p RPTV. From what I remember, NBC puts out 1080i. I've done enough digital video work to know that what I'm seeing is definitely compression macroblocking. I can watch just about any action on the screen and it's fine, just the full screen wipes are blocking. Now if Davenlr comes back and says that the wipes are not blocking for him on his national feed or KARK OTA, then I'll know it's Suddenlink skimping on the bits :)

Oh, I know no criticism involved. :D I'm putting out 1080i over component to a WD-60735 which is a 1080p RPTV. From what I remember, NBC puts out 1080i. I've done enough digital video work to know that what I'm seeing is definitely compression macroblocking. I can watch just about any action on the screen and it's fine, just the full screen wipes are blocking. Now if Davenlr comes back and says that the wipes are not blocking for him on his national feed or KARK OTA, then I'll know it's Suddenlink skimping on the bits :)

I've been watching it on OTA KARKHD 4.1 and Directv 392 NBCEHD and have had no blocking

Sudden Link is our local cable provider up here in Yell county (Danville area). We still have old analog cable here. I called Sudden Link about 2 weeks ago to inquire about when they might go digital in my area. All they would say is eventually. Places not far from me like Russellville have it, we dont. I know a guy who works for them and he told me that he had sat in on several meetings to request our area be upgraded to digital. He was basically told our area was so small that updating it to digital was the least of their worries. In fact, he was told that rather than "waste" money upgrading Yell county, they might just shut our area down completely. Nice to know they think so much of their customers up here

I'm watching KARK-DT over the air on a 1080i CRT RPTV, and I also see the macroblocking during the Olympic Rings transition wipe, but that's the only time I've seen it. Otherwise the Olympics have looked great in HD.

Now if Davenlr comes back and says that the wipes are not blocking for him on his national feed or KARK OTA, then I'll know it's Suddenlink skimping on the bits :)

Me? Nope, I'm not gonna say that. I'm very surprised NBC is using a graphics logo that required a higher bitrate than they are delivering.

I have a Sharp Aquos 46" with 60hz 1080p native,btw. I think you are getting the same thing we all are. Its better (much better) than Nascar and Football was last year tho. 1080i just wasn't a good choice for sports. That's why the networks with heavy sports coverage (abc, fox, fsn's) chose 720p. NBC and CBS are fighting an uphill battle that the best and fastest monitors can't fix. But the sure do show the macroblocks going by fast :).

You know, I don't really think it has to do with the resolution it is transmitted in at all. I have a fairly good plasma 42" TV that I saw no macroblocking on ever for the Olympics. I also have a decent 32" LCD that I might have seen some on occasionally, but not enough to notice.

I think what the main problem we are dealing with is different refresh rates on different monitors. Kinda like computer monitors have a response time of like .8 milliseconds or whatever the ratings are, some of these TV's might have different specs along those lines and thus respond differently. Add that on to the fact of differing receiving and retransmitting equipment and you might happen to get enough changes in the signal to cause a little macroblocking here and there.

You know, I don't really think it has to do with the resolution it is transmitted in at all. I have a fairly good plasma 42" TV that I saw no macroblocking on ever for the Olympics. I also have a decent 32" LCD that I might have seen some on occasionally, but not enough to notice.

I think what the main problem we are dealing with is different refresh rates on different monitors. Kinda like computer monitors have a response time of like .8 milliseconds or whatever the ratings are, some of these TV's might have different specs along those lines and thus respond differently. Add that on to the fact of differing receiving and retransmitting equipment and you might happen to get enough changes in the signal to cause a little macroblocking here and there.

My Sony KDS 60a2020 say it has a response time of 2.5ms, thats pretty darn fast. I remember looking at computer screens about 3 years ago when I bought my LG. It is 8ms response and at the time, tha was about as fast as I could find. There might have been a 4ms but it would have been considerably more expensive. Anyway the tv is 2.5 on a 60" screen vs my LG which is 8ms on a 19" screen. I would also assume that the bigger screen would need a faster response to keep from having artifacts.

Hey, it was a shot that noone had thought of yet. Thought it might be something. I wasn't sure. I still think that the problems people have might be a mixture of a bunch of different things. I don't think its fair to say that its the fault of the main provider (i.e. NBC themselves). Theres enough line to have plenty of knots in it. :)

Yeah, I only meant that my particular set had a pretty fast response. However, there are many sets that have a slower response so you could be on to something. On my tv, I never noticed any of the marco blocking that most are talking about.:)

Me? Nope, I'm not gonna say that. I'm very surprised NBC is using a graphics logo that required a higher bitrate than they are delivering.


Tsk, tsk. You think that the graphics department actually talks to the tech side of the street? After all, it looks great on their AE/Motion/Shake/whatever machine and that's all that counts right? Even if someone brought it up to a producer, the conversation probably went something like:

Tech: Excuse me, we have a slight problem. The logo wipe we use is causing macroblocking in our post-compression broadcast stream.

Producer: Um, in english please?

Tech: It gets all blocky for about 3/4 of a second when we do replays and use this big graphic.

Producer: So, just for that little amount of time, and only occasionally?

Tech: Yes. It is a bit noticeable if you know when to look.

Producer: So you're telling me it's only truly noticeable to a small handful of HD weenies with too much time on their hands? And you want me to have the graphics department spend another three dozen man hours to come up with something different?

Tech: um, well...

Producer: Exactly. Just let me know if there's a REAL problem. Like not being able to see the glistening on the tear-streaked face of a gymnast after a fall. Now that would be a real tragedy...


In all seriousness, yes there are MANY points along the way that a signal could possible get compressed. And if I was looking on an LCD or plasma, the response rate might be important too. I was just wanting to knock one possibility off the end of the chain (cable company). I think Davenlr's response that he sees it OTA and on the national DirectTV stream seems to indicate that NBC is putting out a nice feed. Honestly, I'm happy with the SuddenLink stream (their choice of HD channels in another matter).

p.s.- yes I include myself in the group of "HD weenies with too much time on their hands" ;)

-MDG

Well, its easy to see if its the monitor, just record it and frame by frame through the scene. If its the tv, you won't see the macroblocks on the frame by frame. If the blocks are repeatable by going backwards and forwards frame by frame, the bitrate isn't high enough somewhere in the stream. Consider also that only 50 to 75% of the transmission is actual data. There is the forward error correction data, the start and stop bits, the wrapper (atsc, ts, qam)... the number of hd channels sent per transponder (on both source, and retransmission for satellite, channel for cable). Way to may variables to pin down any one thing, but the concensus on dbstalk is that NBC is the worst of the major sports provider in quality. They are doing way above average for the olympics.

Well, its easy to see if its the monitor, just record it and frame by frame through the scene. If its the tv, you won't see the macroblocks on the frame by frame. If the blocks are repeatable by going backwards and forwards frame by frame, the bitrate isn't high enough somewhere in the stream. Consider also that only 50 to 75% of the transmission is actual data. There is the forward error correction data, the start and stop bits, the wrapper (atsc, ts, qam)... the number of hd channels sent per transponder (on both source, and retransmission for satellite, channel for cable). Way to may variables to pin down any one thing, but the concensus on dbstalk is that NBC is the worst of the major sports provider in quality. They are doing way above average for the olympics.

Yeah the olympics and dont forget Notre Dame football. I swear when they are on NBC, I didnt know HD could be so clear.

Last year HDNET was running a game between I believe Duke and Air Force. Man oh Man was it clear, probably the best looking sporting event I've ever seen on HD, they must have been pegging the bit rate out on that one.

HDnet runs full transponder bandwidth I believe. PBS-HD has two HD channels on one transponder, but 90% of the time, the second channel just shows bars. Its also stellar quality.
This years football season should be interesting.

any Comcast QAM users have their locals remapped and/or disappear? I leave for a week and come back to find the channels aren't there. My re-scan found one set of channels that are the guide to using Comcast's EPG. Usually it would find the locals + NBA League Pass preview + neverending movie previews. I don't think it's my tuner, at least I hope not...

follow-up: rescanned tonight and got THV and KATV back. they were in the same slots as before. still no signal on KLRT or KARK. I went outside and tried to get them where the cable comes into the house in case of coax problems, no luck there.

You have the worst luck with that it seems. I had some disappear on me, but I think it was just a system issue that I got worked out. On a side note, I need to figure out how to get PBS-HD to show video and audio again when I try to tune to it. It just isn't showing anything for some weird reason.

Oh, and I give it another day or two for the changes the lady at TMS to propagate down so we don't have to go to external sources for PBS-HD information. She said she would change our 440 to have the same data as KDINDT while she works on a new solution.

Anyone over in Eastern Ar that can verify channel 41-DT is from Holly Springs,Ms? I can't quite get enough tropo to lock and scan it, but it only comes in when pointed at 75 degrees from LR...whats weird is I get zip from Memphis stations with 2x the power.

Edit: Nevermind...first tropo lock with the new 7777 amp... WBUY-DT, Holly Springs, Ms... TBN-1, Church Channel -2, JCTV -3, TBN Spanish -4.... yea!!!

Well, I have gotten us really really close to having the right PBS-HD data in our EPG's. Our Comcast Digital channel 440 now shows it as KDINDT with all the PBS-HD data. While the callsign isn't right, at least its there. :) Can everyone who uses this data confirm for me that they like what they see?

Thanks!

Anyone over in Eastern Ar that can verify channel 41-DT is from Holly Springs,Ms? I can't quite get enough tropo to lock and scan it, but it only comes in when pointed at 75 degrees from LR...whats weird is I get zip from Memphis stations with 2x the power.

Edit: Nevermind...first tropo lock with the new 7777 amp... WBUY-DT, Holly Springs, Ms... TBN-1, Church Channel -2, JCTV -3, TBN Spanish -4.... yea!!!

WBUY-DT 41 is the TBN station for the Memphis market. I've seen those 5 streams (yes 5 SD subchannels) drift this way a few times. WPXX-DT 51 is the MNTV/Ion "affiliate" for Memphis---it has four subchannels---MNTV/Ion, Ion Life, Qubo, and Worship. I expect K34FH to start transmitting its 5 streams of TBN "programming" before year's end.

Down here near or around Transition Day, we should have two more digital stations coming up in my area from El Dorado: KETZ-DT (when it moves to ch 10), and KEJB when it flash cuts to digital on ch 43.

Also, across the river at Greenwood MS, WMAO (PBS/MPB) will increase digital to full power on ch 25 this month, while decreasing the analog signal on ch23. WXVT ch 15 the Greenville MS is scheduled to flash cut to digital (its current digital is a puny signal on ch17) on T-Day. It is unclear though if WXVT will even pass-through HDTV. WABG-DT (Greenwood MS) already is at full power and has ABC on the main stream (6-1, in HDTV) and FOX on the 6-2 subchannel. However, the ridge east of me and CCI from KARK-DT prevent me from receiving this station.

So, after looking at Tropo maps presented to me in this thread by Dmatch and Pm'ed to me by Arxaw, can anyone explain to good ole Arkyman why in the world do I get the reception that I do? I'm not complaining, I'll take it, but according to the maps, there is no signal period where I am. The tropo does not take into account your system, ant set up, amps and all that. Still, why do I get all the LR stations? Weakest one is 42.1, somedays I get it somedays I dont, when I do its around 59-65%. The rest of the channels 4.1, 7.1 (before tower Collapse) 11.1, 16.1, 38.1 I get all the time. Obviously the Tropo is dead wrong in my area. Everyone I know within a 10-15 mile radius of me gets great reception. And its not just the digital, I used to get 4, 7, 11, 16 clear as a bell on analog. 38 and 42 were clear somedays and a little snowy others but always very watchable. Same thing on the FT. Smith side, always have gotten them very well both analog and digital. Yet if one were to look at the tropo of my area, they'd say, dont waste your money on OTA, you'll never get a thing. Thank God for those of us who are stubborn:D

BTW, I think the Tropos that Dmatch put up were lost the other day when the site went Awol on us.

They have a full power Greenwood station and a full power LR station on the same channel? That's absurd. I could get Greenwood every morning when I lived in the flats downtown. That's gonna cause a LOT of interference. Seems 41 and 52 are the strongest Memphis stations here so far. Any other consistently strong stations I should be looking for? I can occasionally get Shreveport, and get 13.x from Gurdon pretty consistently,so that direction is good for me.

Tropo isn't really nessessary when other factors come into play...Could be refraction off Mt Magazine, or the same thing I experienced in Blytheville. I could get stations 150 miles away consistently, up and down the Mississippi River. Maybe you are in the Arkansas River valleys ducting zone...

That skip I got last night from Holly Springs... It wasn't tropo really, signal went from 12% to 80% solid for 5 minutes, after a giant thunderstorm passed to the East of Holly Springs, so the signal was probably bouncing off the hail..as soon as that storm passed them, signal dropped back to 12%. Memphis never came in at all. Dx is a strange hobby.

Tropo isn't really nessessary when other factors come into play...Could be refraction off Mt Magazine, or the same thing I experienced in Blytheville. I could get stations 150 miles away consistently, up and down the Mississippi River. Maybe you are in the Arkansas River valleys ducting zone...

That skip I got last night from Holly Springs... It wasn't tropo really, signal went from 12% to 80% solid for 5 minutes, after a giant thunderstorm passed to the East of Holly Springs, so the signal was probably bouncing off the hail..as soon as that storm passed them, signal dropped back to 12%. Memphis never came in at all. Dx is a strange hobby.

Yeah, whatever is going on in my area isnt really tropo, I was just mainly using it in reference to the maps and where they show an existing signal. In my area, it shows no signal according to the maps. The Mt. Magazine thing could be right. I've always thought that the reception in my area might have something like Mt. Magazine or Even Danville Mt. that comes into play. I guess Mt. Magazin acts like a big reflector on an antenna for our area. Any more ideas from anyone. I dont really know that their is an answer for what we all see sometimes, but its good conversation and I for one usually pick up some good info and tips when discussing this stuff with folks like ya'll who have tons of experience. thanks for any input, its greatly appreciated:)

They have a full power Greenwood station and a full power LR station on the same channel? That's absurd. I could get Greenwood every morning when I lived in the flats downtown. That's gonna cause a LOT of interference. Seems 41 and 52 are the strongest Memphis stations here so far. Any other consistently strong stations I should be looking for? I can occasionally get Shreveport, and get 13.x from Gurdon pretty consistently,so that direction is good for me.

WABG and KARK share the same DTV channel (32). WABG is directional to somewhat protect KARK's omidirectional coverage, but east of Star City in Gould, Dumas WABG will lock. I am concerned about the short-spacing of some of these stations as AETN has two DTV's on ch 13 (KETG Gurdon, and KEMV Fox), the later to increase power and also potentially cause issues with fringe coverage for WHBQ Memphis (which will flash cut to 13 from its current ch53 DTV).

Most folks though in the boonies where coverage is iffy from Little Rock and insist on their "Hawg" fix will go the D* route for HD locals and not bother at all with OTA. But there are the adventurous among us that are not satisfied with watching what we are supposed to ;)

13 seems to be a popular channel.
I am looking to see a sort of AM clear channel of old scenario set up with low band. Like Memphis' WMC going up to 1000KW or more on ch 5 DT. Would make a good skip target at night. FCC would probably appprove it if the nearest other ch 5 was 300 miles away..

Hey, who all here has an HR20-700 or an H20-600? And those that do that have good outdoor antenna's are you getting any of the digital 2 channels through the HR20 or H20?

I was just thinking tonight that one reason I probably wasn't seeing even a blip of a signal on it is that it might be trying to look at like channel 7 for the signal or something like that and not even looking at 5. On the two Zenith boxes I get with the crappy little non-amp'd rabbit ears, I at least see a tiny signal on it even though it can't lock.

I am thinking that my boxes aren't even looking at the right channel to try to get the signal in. What do you think?

Get KETS on both the HR20-700 and the H20-600... using the back side of my DAT75 and 7777. HR20 has the worst tuner I've ever seen, so I wouldn't expect you would have much luck with it, but the H20-600 should pull it in real well, if you have a signal at all at the antenna jack.
My HR20 won't even lock KLRT unless I point the antenna west, but yet it gets KARK fine pointed NorthEast... go figure. My $50 USB tuner and the Pansat both pick up all the stations with the antenna pointed NorthEast. All four receivers are connected to the same antenna with a 4 way splitter. HR20-700 is consistently 20 to 40% less quality, and it cannot handle ANY multipath.

@Arkyman:

I believe what you were meaning to say was perhaps "Topo" and not "Tropo" when referring to the Google Earth maps. They are a type of topograhic map.

Since we lost the previous posts regarding Yell County reception of Little Rock TV channels, here is what the Google Earth/TVFool.com overlay maps did or did not take into account that probably make the maps under-predict reception. From TVFool.com:


About the maps

- They DO take into account the transmitter power, frequency, antenna pattern, and height (according to the FCC)
- They DO account for propagation losses due to terrain
- They DO account for curvature of the Earth
- They represent the expected signal strength near ground level
- They DO NOT take into account your antenna gain, amps, elevated installation, or receiver sensitivity
- They DO NOT account for building obstructions or indoor penetration
- They DO NOT account for multipath

In very rough terms, the colors can be broken down as follows (not related to Antennaweb):

- White is extremely strong. Beware of signal overload on amps.
- Red-yellow-green are all quite strong. You can expect reasonable coverage with an indoor antenna.
- Cyan is where it's advisable to move the antenna up to the second floor or attic.
- Blue is where it's probably necessary to install a good antenna on the roof.
- Purple is quite weak and you really have to work at it for any chance of reception.

Please understand that this is a simulation and can only be treated as a rough approximation. Reception at your location is affected by many factors such as multipath, antenna gain, receiver sensitivity, buildings, and trees - which are not taken into account. Your mileage may vary.

If the maps were worth posting the first time (before they were lost) then I guess they are worth posting again so I have attached them.

Edit: I thought of something else that I read regarding propagation of TV signals. Here it is. Don't know if this would apply but it might.

Atmospheric ducting:

Under certain meteorological conditions where the refractive index decreases rapidly with height over large horizontal distances, radio waves can be trapped and experience low signal loss over long distances. This phenomenon is known as atmospheric ducting. It's why sometimes you can pick up a radio station from far away and other times you can't.

dmatch

Atmospheric Ducting is awesome. I've only experienced it once, when I lived in Blytheville. The TV stations from Milwaukee, Wi and Chicago,Ill were strong enough to override Memphis for about 4 hours. I could hit Milwaukee repeaters with a 1 watt two meter handheld. It eventually shifted to Detroit and Toronto for another hour, then just disappeared as quick as it popped up. It was the most fun I've ever had DX'ing.
That was in 1979. Haven't experienced anything like it since.

Thanks for uploading the maps again Dmatch. And I did mean topo and not tropo, I'm not the best typer in the world:)

BTW everyone. I watched the Cowboys vs Broncos on 42.1 last night. They were running it in HD. Any still or slow moving picture that was close up looked great, even replays were very HD quality. However, when they zoomed out to cover the field before each play, and when there was a play actually in progress, the grass looked like it was crawling or maybe slight bits of blocking. Was this 1080i on 42.1? Were they running a really low bit rate? I've watched 1080i football on 11.1 many times, the only time you get artifacts is in a really fast moving play. I used to notice this same type of "grass crawling" effect on ESPNHD 2 years ago on my old Dishnetwork 811 HD receiver. Just wondering what exactly 42.1's criteria for the game was last night. Anyone know?

You're welcome Arkyman.

Perhaps you are describing what I have heard called mosquito noise on the football game? Looks like a swarm of mosquitoes on the field during motion?

dmatch

@Arkyman:

I cranked up TSReader (Transport Stream reader) and it shows KWBF-DT to be about 8 Mbps. That is a low bit rate for HD sports. For instance, KARK-DT runs about 18 Mbps on their dedicated 1 channel feed.

Edited to add: They are running 720p. That shouldn't be a problem since resolution wasn't the issue, but digital artifacts were. I think by running 720p instead of 1080i that would improve the picture quality during motion with that starved bit rate.

dmatch

The reason its so bad, is they are running two 720p and one 480i stream at the same time (KATV being the second 720p stream). ATSC wasn't really designed for two HD streams on one transmitter. If they had the money for a statmuxer, such as dish and directv use, which dynamically adjusts the program streams to allocate more bitrate to fast moving scenes, they might get away with it.

You're right in my opinion. 1 HD channel per transmission is all they should do. KWBF-DT's channel layout definitely sucks. A marginal quality HD signal like what is used on satellite transmissions for NASCAR International feeds have a symbol rate of 14 MSps or about 28 Mbps (bit rate) and it's okay but not great compared to some other HD's at 58 Mbps.

When KATV-DT leaves and goes to it's own transmitter I hope they (KWBF-DT) re-allocate the bit rates so I can stand to watch KKYK-DT (RTN) again. I like some of those old shows but the quality is horrible. RTN only gets about 1-2 Mbps and thats a joke. It ought to be against the law the way a Cardinal's game looks on that channel.

dmatch

Does KWBF's current encoder not stat mux? That would be very surprising, as every encoder I've seen that will handle two HDs like that stat muxes. There are a few stations doing multiple HD feeds, and they're all horror stories from what I've heard about the picture quality.

- Trip

Get KETS on both the HR20-700 and the H20-600... using the back side of my DAT75 and 7777. HR20 has the worst tuner I've ever seen, so I wouldn't expect you would have much luck with it, but the H20-600 should pull it in real well, if you have a signal at all at the antenna jack.
My HR20 won't even lock KLRT unless I point the antenna west, but yet it gets KARK fine pointed NorthEast... go figure. My $50 USB tuner and the Pansat both pick up all the stations with the antenna pointed NorthEast. All four receivers are connected to the same antenna with a 4 way splitter. HR20-700 is consistently 20 to 40% less quality, and it cannot handle ANY multipath.
On the two Zenith STB's I bought, the signal for all the channel 2 channels is down in the left hand red side of the meter that shows not able to get a lock. Thats off of antennas that aren't even worth the metal they are made out of. So, with the set top antenna I am using in the computer room, I should be able to get some kind of signal from them considering its got a low-grade amp in it, but yet the H20 doesn't show diddly. I am thinking the Zenith boxes are far better than even the H20.

Oh well, not like I really wanted it anyway, just thought it was weird how they weren't even showing a blip on a channel that the STB's are showing is there a little. Come October when we have our HD channels up on D11, I will take the good antenna I have on the HR20 and put it on one of the Zenith boxes to see what it can do there. Until then, I have to leave it in place cause I don't wanna screw up a good thing. :)

Has anyone that uses GB-PVR or any other PC app that needs an external program guide to see listings gone to zap2it.com and checked out the listings for digital 440 yet? I am really interested if anyone else thinks its looking good for now even though it has the wrong station call sign on it. To me, it looks fine, but I just wanna make sure.

RE: KWBF-DT Statmuxing

Using TSReader I can watch bit rates for KTHV-DT's 2 channels move up and down as they are adjusted as they use Statmuxing. On KWBF-DT the bit rates are stuck with little or no change on. When I say little or no change I mean 7.48 or 7.49 Mbps for KATV-DT and a flat 8.00 Mbps for KWBF-DT and a 1.50 Mbps with no change on KKYK-DT. They even have 1.30 Mbps null bits allocated to nothing (PID=0x1fff).

Edit: I think the only changes I am seeing are due to round-off in TSReader.

dmatch

I was going to compare bitrates on KATV-DT vs ABC sat on the Little League World Series game, but alas, Paid Programming once again preempts Live sports on KATV...Guess they don't care that Louisiana, our neighbor, is playing.

Always Sharp Steak Knives anyone? Hurry, only the next 30 callers get the free matching sharpening stone.

The game is on KKYK for some reason....Use a HD stream for infomercials...and a 1.5mbs stream for live sports...God the FCC sucks for allowing this crap.

I was going to compare bitrates on KATV-DT vs ABC sat on the Little League World Series game, but alas, Paid Programming once again preempts Live sports on KATV...Guess they don't care that Louisiana, our neighbor, is playing.

Always Sharp Steak Knives anyone? Hurry, only the next 30 callers get the free matching sharpening stone.

The game is on KKYK for some reason....Use a HD stream for infomercials...and a 1.5mbs stream for live sports...God the FCC sucks for allowing this crap.
It is horrendous!

BTW, I think FCC stands for Forced Cable Carry.

Also, I checked back later on KWBF-DT and the bit rates had changed. They were lower and there seemed to be several more data channels running that took up the bandwidth, but I can't absolutely swear to that. There are currently 14 (Edit: Changed from 18 because 4 PIDs have to do with Audio data channels) and I don't believe there were that many at the time of my previous post. The bit rate on the KWBF-DT is down to 7.65 from 8 Mbps and KATV-DT is down to 7.16 from 7.48 Mbps and KKYK-DT is a dismal 1.43 Mbps now and was 1.50. But all are steady.

The only thing their system appears to do is adjust the bit rates to accommodate data channels.

dmatch

What are these data channels they run? What are they for?

Dave, you think you think we should try figuring out the corporate structure for 7 and get ahold of people higher up in the food chain to bitch about this? I would think that if enough customers complained over Nicholson's head, they might do something about it. I know, wishful thinking.

You tell me what the data channels are for and we will both know. ;)

I'm calling them data channels, but all I really know is that they don't seem to have anything to do with Video or audio.

On another matter:

Friday (8/15/2008) I contacted (e-mailed) someone listed in an FCC filing for KWBF and pointed out that their time was wrong on their Digital channel. Today I see that they actually have corrected the time. However, now there is no EPG data being sent. Out of the frying pan into the fire...as it were.

Punishment? :confused:

Incompetence? :rolleyes:

Apathy? :cool:

dmatch

I would think that if enough customers complained over Nicholson's head, they might do something about it. I know, wishful thinking.


Look's like he's on his way out, while not the owner!


"Tip:KATV Morning Host Contract NOT ReNewed/KATV Prez to leave in 2009"

This from a tipster: At KATV, Jason Harper's contract has not been renewed and will be leaving by the end of the month. And the station's owner, Dale Nicholson is leaving next year after the transition to digital in February.

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=9824194&postID=1324164014975259202

I have a question for all you guys. Its off topic, I know, but I am just wanting to know what other people think. Didn't the Pine Bluff Arsenal recently finish destroying that last little bit of chemical weapons that they had stored there? I ask because of all these CSEPP commercials that come on. I just thought they were done with all that and we didn't have to deal with that crap anymore. Its no offense to the people in the commercial, but I get kinda tired of hearing all these people with insanely strong southern accents tawlkin bout how they shuld have a change of clothes and gas in their veehickles and all their medicines filled and junk like that. If they are done with the disposal of chemical weapons, I wish they would stop with the commercials. :)

Steveken,

The extra data channels that I was referring to on KWBF-DT are PIDs that are associated with data as shown in this TSReader generated list of PIDs:

0x0031 MPEG-2 Video for program 3
0x0051 MPEG-2 Video for program 5
0x0041 MPEG-2 Video for program 4
0x1fff MPEG-2 NULL Packet
0x0054 AC-3 Audio for program 5
0x0044 AC-3 Audio for program 4
0x0035 AC-3 Audio for program 3
0x0034 AC-3 Audio for program 3
0x1d00 ATSC EIT-0
0x0000 MPEG-2 Program Assocation Table
0x1ffb ATSC Base PID (TVCT, MGT, RT, STT)
0x0030 MPEG-2 PMT for program 3
0x0040 MPEG-2 PMT for program 4
0x0050 MPEG-2 PMT for program 5
0x1e00 ATSC Event ETT-0
0x1d01 ATSC EIT-1
0x1d02 ATSC EIT-2
0x1d03 ATSC EIT-3
0x1e01 ATSC Event ETT-1

I wasn't trying to be a smartiass before. I really didn't know until I looked. Still don't know a whole lot more.

It also appears that the number of PIDs (Data channels) does not change, just their sizes change.

dmatch

They finished destroying the bad stuff. They are still working on some of the more mild stuff. Guess they can only do one type chemical at a time.

Not that I care, but wouldn't it be a violation of some ABC affiliation agreement for the affiliate to farm out live network sports programming to a low bitrate channel of another company?

Maybe not, since KTWN is rebroadcasting Mt Views digital PBS (complete with vhf dropouts).

Ill be happy when the new tower is up and Nicholson is gone. He, like the HAWG cronies on the "hill" have needed to go for a long time.

I'm beginning to think the engineering crew at KATV is the only competent people there. The programming and news depts suck. I wish KAIT would put a translator in Searcy I could watch. They run a top notch station up there in Jonesboro.

Maybe not, since KTWN is rebroadcasting Mt Views digital PBS (complete with vhf dropouts).

!!!Topic drift warning!!!:)

I don't think they get the PBS from VHF. A couple of days ago there was an Error screen on instead that said something like "Acquiring Signal from Satellite 110 Spotbeam 18"(?) or something like that. I believe they get the signal from Dishnet and don't do a very good job of it.

Edit: Perhaps they do it however they feel like doing it whenever they feel like doing it!

dmatch

However they are doing it, its a good idea, but the source signal sucks.

Yeah, it's a good idea. I find I watch 18-2 almpost as much as I watch 2-1 due to impulse/electrical noise from thunderstorms or whatever.

I hate those glitches.

dmatch

I really like their weather radar...without having to hear Craig O'Neil yelling about his BIG 2.

I get INN on sat, but its a fair news channel.

They had a great idea there with KTWN. Would like to see more of those for mid size towns. North Little Rock and Sherwood could use one. They could even broadcast the Friday night football games and some of the tournaments at Burns Park.

Actually, I think it is a shame that all local television isn't similar to what KTWN is doing. Just imagine all of the sports and local event coverage that could be done. But I guess you have to think more about what you are doing and actually get more involved with the local community to do that. Must be easier to just do local news and let the big boys at the national level or somewhere else do the thinking.

dmatch

Let's analyze this:

0x0031 MPEG-2 Video for program 3
42-1 Video

0x0051 MPEG-2 Video for program 5
42-3 Video

0x0041 MPEG-2 Video for program 4
42-2 Video

0x1fff MPEG-2 NULL Packet
Null packet to fill empty space

0x0054 AC-3 Audio for program 5
Audio for 42-3

0x0044 AC-3 Audio for program 4
Audio for 42-2

0x0035 AC-3 Audio for program 3
SAP Audio for 42-1

0x0034 AC-3 Audio for program 3
Audio for 42-1

0x1d00 ATSC EIT-0
Guide data

0x0000 MPEG-2 Program Assocation Table
0x1ffb ATSC Base PID (TVCT, MGT, RT, STT)
0x0030 MPEG-2 PMT for program 3
0x0040 MPEG-2 PMT for program 4
0x0050 MPEG-2 PMT for program 5
I'm not 100% sure, but I think these are related to the time, mapping (from 44.3 to 42-1, 44.5 to 7-1, etc), and other assorted functions.

0x1e00 ATSC Event ETT-0
0x1d01 ATSC EIT-1
0x1d02 ATSC EIT-2
0x1d03 ATSC EIT-3
0x1e01 ATSC Event ETT-1
All of these are guide data

- Trip

Hi Trip,

As you can see they (KWBF-DT) have allocated data bits for EIT but, thing is, there is no EPG data showing up on these channels. This seemed to happen after they corrected their inaccurate time yesterday/today. They did have EPG data showing before. Any ideas what might have happened?

dmatch

It could be reserved with no data having been input. If they had to reset the computer that handles EIT in order to fix the time, then they might have wiped out the EPG configuration. I'm really not sure, I'm just guessing at this point, but that would make sense to me.

See if it's still missing in 24 hours. It may only get updated once per day or something.

- Trip

Hallelujah! My Mom and Dad are ready to trade in their old analog set for a new widescreen. They've asked me to help them find a good one. I'm a little out of touch with sets lately. Mine is the SXRD with 120W Lamp. Although these are now very cheap, I didnt think it would be a good choice for them because of the lamp and 4,000-6,000 hr rating. Most LCD's are rated in the 50,000+ life range. They do know they want something in the 42"-50" range. My mom wants a 42" and my dad wants the 50" (way to go dad..aim high;)). Any suggestions on a good LCD in the $1,000-$2,000 range? I dont think paying more for things like 120hz over 60hz or even 1080p over 720p is gonna be important to them so I think a good 720p set might fill there needs. They are retired, have grand kids and run their tv probably 8 hours a day sometimes more, thats why I thought the Sony SXRD type tv's with lamps would be a bad move for them. Thanks for any suggestions:)

Hello,

I'm trying to get Media Center set up on my PC. When it pulls down the channels from the TitanTV (I think this is where MC gets it's info), it's pulling the wrong frequency/channel for KATV. I know they're broadcasting on the WB substation since the lost of their tower in January, but every time I try to add it to media center it never finds it. Has anyone been able to successfully get KATV to show up in Media Center? I'm trying to pull it in over my antenna of course. The Channel/Subchannel/Frequency would be very helpful.

Thanks!

revolverone,

you have to go into the directory that has all the setup information for it to change the information by hand. go to "C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs" I think it is and look at the "atscchannels.xml" file in notepad and change it from physical="22" to physical="44" and that should fix it I think.

Its been a while since I tried to do it, but I seem to remember that being what I did. I do know that it took quite a bit of finagaling to get the darned thing to work right. And sometimes it wouldn't work when I went back into media center. I would have to remove like 42-2 from the added channel that I had and then put it back, or add it and remove it or something like that to get it to work.

Hope that helps. Oh, and welcome aboard, shipmate. :)


EDIT: Oh yeah, and MCE gets its program data from zap2it like most other places, even Titan, gets it from.

Hallelujah! My Mom and Dad are ready to trade in their old analog set for a new widescreen. They've asked me to help them find a good one. I'm a little out of touch with sets lately. Mine is the SXRD with 120W Lamp. Although these are now very cheap, I didnt think it would be a good choice for them because of the lamp and 4,000-6,000 hr rating. Most LCD's are rated in the 50,000+ life range. They do know they want something in the 42"-50" range. My mom wants a 42" and my dad wants the 50" (way to go dad..aim high;)). Any suggestions on a good LCD in the $1,000-$2,000 range? I dont think paying more for things like 120hz over 60hz or even 1080p over 720p is gonna be important to them so I think a good 720p set might fill there needs. They are retired, have grand kids and run their tv probably 8 hours a day sometimes more, thats why I thought the Sony SXRD type tv's with lamps would be a bad move for them. Thanks for any suggestions:)
What size TV do they have now? I ask because I went from a 27" tube to a 42" plasma. I literally started getting nauseous when I first started watching it....it was wild. :) You have to warn them (and warn them strongly or you will regret it) that they will most likely get motion sick from it for the first couple of days when they are watching it. Thats what happened to me at least. :)

Thanks for any suggestions:)

While 1080p may not be important now, future add ons might use it (blu-ray, DVR's, etc) so I would at least get that..They only cost about $150 more.

I have a $1799 at Best Buy Sharp Aquos 46". I love it so much I bought the 4 yr service plan, and I never buy those. My parents have a $1099 at Wal Mart Polaroid 46" 1080p unit. Not quite as good colors as my Sharp (less contrast) but looks very good by itself. Are they on Dish, Directv or cable? If the latter, just make sure the set has enough inputs for whatever you plan to hook up.

If they are going to want to watch 4:3 material in widescreen like my parents, make sure it has a smart stretch mode, so they don't have a wide fat people picture :) Sharp does, don't recall on the Polo, don't think so, but they don't mind the pillar boxes.

Just my two cents... BTW, Directv just added 1080p/24 to the HR20 for VOD playback, and only about 10% of the current 1080p sets will play it. Most will only do 1080p/60. Hopefully Directv can fix that :)

<rant>OMG do NOT get me started on Polaroid TV's. Geez, I wish they would stop licensing out that name and selling them! I hate it when companies with good names whore themselves out to other companies just so they can slap a more familiar name on a product that not as good as the name implies it is.

</rant>

I have a 37" Poloroid, parents have the 46". Its not a Sony or a Sharp, but its cheap, and is much better than Vizio or Insignia. Have you had problems with one?

I still think Sharp is the best, Samsung seems to be the only brand playing the 1080p/24 vods... But, it was in the price/size range he asked for.

I have a 37" Vizio that I have no problems what-so-ever with....well, except for the other day when all the items with any red in them seemed to be blaring out and way too bright, but I turned down the color settings in the menus and it looks fine now. No idea how it got jacked up like that....anyway. It has been a pretty great TV.

I have seen too much I didn't care for and also heard too much about Polaroids to even touch one. I know, the hearing part is probably part of the problem. Just like people do about Vista, but yet I never have a problem with it. Every time I looked at a Polaroid to consider it, it just never looked like a quality product. I forget what it was, but I think it was the menus that I hated. Plus, the picture just didn't look as good as I thought the others did.

The Vizio looked pretty darned good and had a great price on it. I just figured for the $600 or whatever it was I paid for it, I was getting a good TV at a price I could afford and didn't feel as odd as I would by getting something with a cameras name on it. :)

That's it. It works! Cool!! I can't count the number of hours I've spent on trying to get Ch. 7 to pick up using MCE.

Thanks steveken!

BTW: You wouldn't happen to know what KETG Digital (AETN) is broadcasting on? Or are they still analogue until the new tower is built?

revolverone,

you have to go into the directory that has all the setup information for it to change the information by hand. go to "C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs" I think it is and look at the "atscchannels.xml" file in notepad and change it from physical="22" to physical="44" and that should fix it I think.

Its been a while since I tried to do it, but I seem to remember that being what I did. I do know that it took quite a bit of finagaling to get the darned thing to work right. And sometimes it wouldn't work when I went back into media center. I would have to remove like 42-2 from the added channel that I had and then put it back, or add it and remove it or something like that to get it to work.

Hope that helps. Oh, and welcome aboard, shipmate. :)


EDIT: Oh yeah, and MCE gets its program data from zap2it like most other places, even Titan, gets it from.

That's it. It works! Cool!! I can't count the number of hours I've spent on trying to get Ch. 7 to pick up using MCE.

Thanks steveken!

BTW: You wouldn't happen to know what KETG Digital (AETN) is broadcasting on? Or are they still analogue until the new tower is built?
BTW, that was a shot in the dark that you were using Vista. Different directions on XP. heheh

Anyway, according to TVFool.com, KETG is on 13 virtual 9.1. Hope that helps. I know nothing else about it because I am not in its broadcast area.

Shhh, don't tell my DVD recorder (the only one made with component inputs btw) that its a camera :) It might quit making studio quality dvd's off my DVR hahaha.

I don't pay much mind to what I hear, unless I hear the same thing over and over. Hell, if I listened to the talk, I still would be waiting on a decent dvr from Directv... All I hear is bitching about the dvrs. I actually like mine better than my Tivo...
Menu items are a set once and forget item, so I nevr paid much attention to them on a TV. I have my 37" poloroid mounted above my Aquos, and its hooked to the Pansat, so I can watch OTA or FTA on it while watching Directv or OTA or SageTv on the Aquos. For a 720p monitor, once I got the colors adjusted right, it has a damn good looking picture. I've really only seen one brand that had a BAD picture, washed out, no contrast at all....Insignia. My parents bought the 26" widescreen for their kitchen. Its ok to watch while eating dinner, but it would never make it as my primary TV. I'm not sold on DLP either. Didn't look as good to me as a direct LCD. Visios I saw were at Sams Club. Probably why they didn't look good, 2000 people fiddling with them...

I wish I had a DVD recorder to hook to my DVR every now and then. My dad has one, but I don't think I would have enough use for one to justify the pricetag.

I haven't had too much trouble with the DirecTV DVR. Its not all that great, but it does its job. I have learned to work around its shortcomings. I LOVED my DirecTiVo. I miss it on a daily basis. I would love to get a TiVo to use in my computer room or bedroom or something like that, but I just don't think the wife would let me buy one. Know where I can get one at a reduced price than a new one? This computer I am using on my H20 is just not cutting it very well. Maybe one day they will come out with that USB receiver from DirecTV.

My dad got a Sony DLP that Kroger was selling a while back. Its big and it looks fairly decent I suppose, but I know that its going to cause him trouble eventually. Plus, the thing if fricken HUGE!!! And HEAVY! :) I love my plasma and lcd for those reasons....plus the longevity.

Revolverone: Where are you that you can pick up KATV and KETG both? If you meant KETS (Little Rock area PBS) its on digital channel 5 and maps to 2.1 thru 2.4. Its also available on 18.2 if you are in Jacksonville, Cabot, Searcy area. If you are down around Arkadelphia, let me know what stations you can get from your South/west, if any.

what is 18.2?

18.1 KTWN (Local court proceedings in White Co)
18.2 PBS translator from Mt View
18.3 Weather/Radar/Cards game audio
18.4 Independent News Network.

Transmitter about 5 mi N of Cabot, low power. Comes in good here with the 7777, can't lock it without it, but there is Indian Hills blocking me, about 100' higher. Good station tho.

BTW, I got the DVD recorder for $88, refurb w/warrantee. Can't complain. I use it to dump movies and VOD's. Editing on it is a pain. For HD, I use the Computer to capture...DVD recorder will only do 480i.

thanks for the suggestions guys. I have a 37" Vizio in my bedroom, its a nice set, does HD real well. For mom and dad, I kind of wanted to get away from Walmart and get them a little higher end set, especially since it will be in their living room. Currently they have a 36" 4x3 analog set, think its a Magnavox. Dad comes down and watches Football in HD on my 60" sony. He first wanted a 60" until I told him what a 60" LCD or Plasma would run:eek:.....just a little steep for old pops. I appreciate the help and suggestions, I'll keep them in mind. I told dad to go to Bestbuy, pic out what he likes then I'll try to find it on the internet for less, no tax and free shipping. We bought my bro's JVC56"HDILA from Buydig.com last year for $1,300. Maybe I'll find another deal like that, except we want LCD and not a Rear Projection Lamp eater

My bad, I meant KETS. I grew up in Southwest Arkansas and was too used to watching KETG that I had a flashback while typing last night :)

After looking at a number of options, I replaced my aging Mitsu RPG with a Samsung LED DLP. Super long lamp life was what I wanted with the big screen. The online option works well. I got it from Amazon which provided delivery and unpacking service. The DLP sets aren't very heavy considering their size so doing it yourself is no big deal.

One downside costwise is getting a stand for the set if you don't already have one.

One side benefit from the Amazon purchase was their 30 day price guarantee. They started dropping the price after I bought it and got over 10% of the price refunded.

Have your dad go as big as he can afford if the viewing room allows it. All the HD offerings make it stunning on the bigger screens.

@Revolverone:

The last time I configured my MCE 2005 and downloaded station information it had the wrong physical channel for KETS-DT. Originally, when first installed, it was correctly set to physical channel 5. When I had to re-install MCE Zap2It had KETS-DT assigned to physical channel 7, where it will eventually be after Feb 17, 2009. If they have not corrected this in their station information files, you may have to do the atscchannels.xml file trick on KETS-DT as well.

Also, on the XP version of MCE 2005 it may not use the changes you have made to the atscchannels.xml file after the NEXT time you download data from Zap2It. It has something to do with another file ... atscprefs.xml. I don't know if this is true of Vista MCE or not. Anyway, If the fix quits working then here is what you might do for that problem (from The Green Button):

http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/51429.aspx

Those instructions are for MCE 2005 but from reading Steveken's instructions it looks as if the only difference from Vista version would be the folder name where files are stored.

Excerpt from above:
IMPORTANT: You HAVE to add a dummy channel using MCE 2005 "ADD DTV" for the atscprefs.xml file to work. Follow this procedure.

1. Add dummy DTV channel using MCE 2005 "ADD DTV" from Settings.

2. Modify dummy channel in atscprefs.xml to the channel-freq you need.

3. Add any other channel-freqs that you need.

4. save atscprefs.xml

I think that MCE sets a flag somewhere when you add a dummy channel that causes it to load the atscprefs.xml file. If you don't add a dummy channel, it may not read the atscprefs.xml file.

This fix seems to be permanent. I am still watching added channels with no problems!
Have you downloaded data yet to see if the "fix" was permanent?

dmatch

18.1 KTWN (Local court proceedings in White Co)
18.2 PBS translator from Mt View
18.3 Weather/Radar/Cards game audio
18.4 Independent News Network.

Transmitter about 5 mi N of Cabot, low power. Comes in good here with the 7777, can't lock it without it, but there is Indian Hills blocking me, about 100' higher. Good station tho.

BTW, I got the DVD recorder for $88, refurb w/warrantee. Can't complain. I use it to dump movies and VOD's. Editing on it is a pain. For HD, I use the Computer to capture...DVD recorder will only do 480i.
So, you got a HD capture card for the computer? I've seen like 1 of those and it was pretty pricey. I would like to get one, but I think I will wait for the price to come down. It would be nice if you could capture stuff in HD through the ATSC jack on my capture card, but, unfortunately, none of the HD stuff I have seen have the RF outputs.

@Davenlr:

I check in on KTWN quite often to see what's going on. They have more than their share of engineering SNAFUs.

On 18.1 KTWN I have seen a hodgepodge of local baseball, basketball, football, KTWN local News, other assorted local events and America One programming.

18.2 is, as you say, PBS ... Unless there is an ERROR screen that says "Acquiring Satellite 110"

On 18.4 they carry INN as part of their America One affiliation.

Edit: Have your had KTWN mysteriously disappear from your channel list yet?

I have had 2 different HDTVs that lose it and I have to re-scan to get it back. The Vizio would say "Hidden Program" on screen then remove it.

dmatch

Well, my Pansat doesn't have EPG on the Terrestrial Input, so once it scans in a channel, It stays put.

Haven't lost it with Sagetv either, (hauppauge usb hd tuner stick), but again, I gont get guide data for it. I put KTWNDT1 as the ID, but apparently that's not correct.

I don't lose KTWN-DT on my internet/computer based system either. I think this has something to do with the way HDTVs with ATSC tuners and EPGs interpret the transport stream. It doesn't happen terribly often...about once a week lately.

Thanks for the reply.

Edit: Does your Hauppauge usb stick have analog input? If so how does it look? My Pinnacle (spits on ground as he says the name) usb stick analog input sucks. The picture is way too bright and the color is washed out.

dmatch

I hate to say it, but I never scanned in analog...let me check real quick...Yea, it looks real good. My ccomputer isn't really fast enough to encode it in real time tho. Looks good on the media extender.

I'm not sure I was clear enough about what I meant by analog. I was talking about a set of composite inputs (red/white/yellow) like from a satellite receiver. Is that what you are talking about scanning or are you referring to analog (NTSC) OTA stations? Does the Hauppauge stick have composite inputs on it?

I think I should have been clearer with my question.

dmatch

I'm not sure I was clear enough about what I meant by analog. I was talking about a set of composite inputs (red/white/yellow) like from a satellite receiver. Is that what you are talking about scanning or are you referring to analog (NTSC) OTA stations? Does the Hauppauge stick have composite inputs on it?

I think I should have been clearer with my question.

dmatch

Yea, it has analog inputs on it, but I've never used them. I have a analog USB capture stick too, which I don't use anymore. Used to use virtuabdub with it.

dmatch,

I tried your trick with KETS and couldn't get it to work. I'm really starting to think the problem with KETS is that I cannot get a strong enough signal. You would think living in Central Ark. that you could at least pick it up, but I know that KATV tower collapse created a mess and that KETS was sharing the tower.

I've downloaded just the guide stuff, no done a complete re-scan, so far the channels have not changed.

dmatch,

I tried your trick with KETS and couldn't get it to work. I'm really starting to think the problem with KETS is that I cannot get a strong enough signal. You would think living in Central Ark. that you could at least pick it up, but I know that KATV tower collapse created a mess and that KETS was sharing the tower.

I've downloaded just the guide stuff, no done a complete re-scan, so far the channels have not changed.

KATV's tower collapse only affected KETS's analog transmitter, their digital transmitter is on KASN's tower. It's their low power and low-band VHF location that make them such a pain to pick up.

dmatch,

I tried your trick with KETS and couldn't get it to work. I'm really starting to think the problem with KETS is that I cannot get a strong enough signal. You would think living in Central Ark. that you could at least pick it up, but I know that KATV tower collapse created a mess and that KETS was sharing the tower.

I've downloaded just the guide stuff, no done a complete re-scan, so far the channels have not changed.

KETS is the notorious low band (ch5) DTV. Because of its low power and frequency, the station has issues with electrical (both storm related and man made) interference. You can build a half-wave dipole cut for ch 5 and mount it outside for best results. If you have an older VHF/UHF antenna or a VHF only antenna, try that. KETS will finally move in a few months to ch 7, still on the KASN tower @ Redfield.

dmatch,

I tried your trick with KETS and couldn't get it to work. I'm really starting to think the problem with KETS is that I cannot get a strong enough signal. You would think living in Central Ark. that you could at least pick it up, but I know that KATV tower collapse created a mess and that KETS was sharing the tower.

I've downloaded just the guide stuff, no done a complete re-scan, so far the channels have not changed.
First Off, I have XP MCE 2005 so I'm not sure if what I will suggest applies to Vista. I hope it is close enough that this will work.

In MCE 2005 you can check your signal strength in "Digital TV Antenna Signal Strength". This is selected from Main page by clicking on "Settings", "TV", then "Digital TV Antenna Signal Strength" and then clicking "Yes" to continue then "Next". In MCE 2005 you then see a list of all your channels and 4 KETSDT channels should be there (if you want to get all 4). MCE 2005 will automatically start "scanning" thru each channel, showing its signal strength. I hope Vista MCE is very similar and you can check to see if 1) the KETSDT channels are listed there and 2) if you have a good signal on them. I think you should be seeing the channels in this channel list if they have been added correctly.

Below are copies of my atscchannels.xml and atscprefs.xml to compare to in case you might find that you have a problem in one of those files. There might be something not quite right in one of them.

atscchannels.xml

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<channels>
<channel callsign="KASN" version="0" physical="39" major="38" />
<channel callsign="KETS" version="0" physical="5" major="2" />
<channel callsign="KATV" version="0" physical="22" major="7" />
<channel callsign="KARK" version="0" physical="32" major="4" />
<channel callsign="KETG" version="0" physical="13" major="9" />
<channel callsign="KWBF" version="0" physical="43" major="42" />
<channel callsign="KEMV" version="0" physical="13" major="6" />
<channel callsign="KTHV" version="0" physical="12" major="11" />
<channel callsign="KLRT" version="0" physical="30" major="16" />
<channel callsign="KVTH" version="0" physical="14" major="26" />
<channel callsign="KVTN" version="0" physical="24" major="25" />
</channels>

atscprefs.xml
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<channels>
<channel callsign="" userAssignedName="KETS-DT4" version="0" physical="5" major="2" minor="4" />
<channel callsign="" userAssignedName="KETS-DT3" version="0" physical="5" major="2" minor="3" />
<channel callsign="" userAssignedName="KETS-DT2" version="0" physical="5" major="2" minor="2" />
<channel callsign="KETS-DT1" userAssignedName="KETS-DT1" version="0" physical="5" major="2" />
<channel callsign="KATV" userAssignedName="TempKATV-HD" version="0" physical="44" major="7" />
<channel callsign="" userAssignedName="KWBF-DT3" version="0" physical="44" major="42" minor="3" />
<channel callsign="KKYK" userAssignedName="KKYK" version="0" physical="44" major="42" minor="2" />
<channel callsign="VTV" userAssignedName="VTV" version="0" physical="39" major="38" minor="2" />
<channel callsign="" userAssignedName="KTHV-DT2" version="0" physical="12" major="11" minor="2" />
<channel callsign="KTWN-DT4" userAssignedName="KTWN-DT4" version="0" physical="18" major="18" minor="4" />
<channel callsign="KTWN-DT3" userAssignedName="KTWN-DT3" version="0" physical="18" major="18" minor="3" />
<channel callsign="KTWN-DT2" userAssignedName="KTWN-DT2" version="0" physical="18" major="18" minor="2" />
<channel callsign="KTWN-DT" userAssignedName="KTWN-DT" version="0" physical="18" major="18" />
</channels>


Feel free to quote your atsc*.xml files and we can take a look at them.

This is mysterious stuff. Don't give up yet....We haven't broke it.;)

Edit: Attached is the Digital TV Antenna Signal Strength screen that I was referring to and it is also in Vista MCE. This was taken from:

http://www.krunker.com/2006/10/08/windows-vista-rc1-media-center-setup/

which describes setup of Vista MCE. However, you should be able to access this same screen without going thru the setup again.

dmatch

First Off, I have XP MCE 2005 so I'm not sure if what I will suggest applies to Vista. I hope it is close enough that this will work.

In MCE 2005 you can check your signal strength in "Digital TV Antenna Signal Strength". This is selected from Main page by clicking on "Settings", "TV", then "Digital TV Antenna Signal Strength" and then clicking "Yes" to continue then "Next". In MCE 2005 you then see a list of all your channels and 4 KETSDT channels should be there (if you want to get all 4). MCE 2005 will automatically start "scanning" thru each channel, showing its signal strength. I hope Vista MCE is very similar and you can check to see if 1) the KETSDT channels are listed there and 2) if you have a good signal on them. I think you should be seeing the channels in this channel list if they have been added correctly.

Below are copies of my atscchannels.xml and atscprefs.xml to compare to in case you might find that you have a problem in one of those files. There might be something not quite right in one of them.

atscchannels.xml

atscprefs.xml


Feel free to quote your atsc*.xml files and we can take a look at them.

This is mysterious stuff. Don't give up yet....We haven't broke it.;)

Edit: Attached is the Digital TV Antenna Signal Strength screen that I was referring to and it is also in Vista MCE. This was taken from:

http://www.krunker.com/2006/10/08/windows-vista-rc1-media-center-setup/

which describes setup of Vista MCE. However, you should be able to access this same screen without going thru the setup again.

dmatch
Yeah, thats pretty much how it goes in Vista. It won't show ALL the KETS channels, just 2. If you don't get any signal at all on the one for 2, then you just aren't getting a good enough of a signal for it to work. I don't get jack diddly for it on mine, but I get 100% for the 38 channels. They are just too low of power unless you have a damn good outdoor antenna and a hell of an amp.

Yeah, thats pretty much how it goes in Vista. It won't show ALL the KETS channels, just 2.
XP MCE 2005 can get all 4 KETS-DT channels. I wouldn't think Vista MCE would be different. If you add the channels and make the adjustments as we have been describing you should be able to get all 4 (2.1,2.2,2.3,2.4).

dmatch

I get PBS on 9.1 - 9.4 when my antenna is pointed toward FT. Smith. I cannot receive KETS digital at all, I have always received the analog channel descently. Will KETS power up when it makes its move to ch 7? I think one of my problems here currently is that channel 5 analog out of FT Smith over powers any chances that KETS would have to use the channel. KFSM uses 18.1 and .2 but it re-maps to 5.1 and .2 on my receivers. Does KETS re-map to 2.1? I know that KTHV is channel 12 VHF and I get them well here. I've always received ch. 7 a lot better than ch. 2 in the past. Hoping KETS will power up more and the move to 7 will give me a better chance to receive it. I've always heard that VHF channels are generally easier to pick up than UHF. The only downfall is that KTHV using 12 and the PBS stations using 5,9 causes everyone to continue using a single VHF and UHF set up or a Broadband Antenna. UHF ants are so much smaller, would have been nice is all channels had to relocate to 14 or above.

Does KETS re-map to 2.1?
Yes it maps to 2.1,2.2,2.3,2.4.

dmatch

Yes, KETS-DT on channel 5 is currently at 2.1 kW with a directional pattern protecting WMC-DT in Memphis. On channel 7, they'll be doing 26.7 kW with an omnidirectional antenna.

- Trip

I Love these Google Earth overlays.

dmatch

Yes, KETS-DT on channel 5 is currently at 2.1 kW with a directional pattern protecting WMC-DT in Memphis. On channel 7, they'll be doing 26.7 kW with an omnidirectional antenna.

- Trip

I pick up KASN 38.1 at around 70% from its Redfield Location. I am about 76 miles from them as the crow flies. So when 2.1 goes 26.7 kw on Vhf 7, will I be able to receive them? I currently get KTHV 11.1 on allocated ch 12 at 80%, but they're towere is about 56 miles away. What power is KTHV running? Will ch 7 have to run more power than 12 to make it receiveable? I know the max on UHF is 1000kw. Whats the max on Vhf? So at the moment, 2 is pointed in and easterly direction and has to be deflected so it does not interfere with the memphis station?

I Love these Google Earth overlays.

dmatch

So, are these maps for current coverage? Or is this estimated for when KETs goes full power?

Hey Trip, thanks for the milk. Now where can we get a milk cow....as in where did you come across this info? TVFool.com shows 0.51 KW pre-transition and 26.7 KW post-transition.

dmatch

So, are these maps for current coverage? Or is this estimated for when KETs goes full power?
Current power.

Edit: TVFool.com will show Xmit power before and after transistion but the maps are for current power only.

dmatch

I pick up KASN 38.1 at around 70% from its Redfield Location. I am about 76 miles from them as the crow flies. So when 2.1 goes 26.7 kw on Vhf 7, will I be able to receive them? I currently get KTHV 11.1 on allocated ch 12 at 80%, but they're towere is about 56 miles away. What power is KTHV running? Will ch 7 have to run more power than 12 to make it receiveable? I know the max on UHF is 1000kw. Whats the max on Vhf? So at the moment, 2 is pointed in and easterly direction and has to be deflected so it does not interfere with the memphis station?
According to TVFool.com KTHV-DT is running 55 KW.
Channel 7 should require less power than 12 all else being equal. That would probably account for the 26.7 KW for post-transistion KETS-DT being less than KTHV-DT's 55.

dmatch

I pick up KASN 38.1 at around 70% from its Redfield Location. I am about 76 miles from them as the crow flies. So when 2.1 goes 26.7 kw on Vhf 7, will I be able to receive them? I currently get KTHV 11.1 on allocated ch 12 at 80%, but they're towere is about 56 miles away. What power is KTHV running? Will ch 7 have to run more power than 12 to make it receiveable? I know the max on UHF is 1000kw. Whats the max on Vhf? So at the moment, 2 is pointed in and easterly direction and has to be deflected so it does not interfere with the memphis station?

KTHV-DT 12 is doing 55 kW right now, the federal limit on power in this area is 160 kW at 305 meters, well, since KTHV and KETS are much higher up than 305 meters, they have to cut power to compensate.

KTHV, for their height, should be capped at 47.3 kW, but apparently managed to get 55 kW out of the FCC.

KETS would be capped at 40.7 kW, but I guess they figured that going from 26.7 to 40.7 would be a lot of expense for less than 2 dB worth of extra signal and didn't bother going any higher.

Hey Trip, thanks for the milk. Now where can we get a milk cow....as in where did you come across this info? TVFool.com shows 0.51 KW pre-transition and 26.7 KW post-transition.

dmatch

I have it on my own site (http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?mktid=71), but my info comes from the FCC.

TVFool calculates how much power you are receiving in your direction based on the directional power. It's showing you 0.51 kW because that is how much power the directional pattern is putting in your direction. So in their strongest direction, they're doing 2.1 kW, but in your direction, you receive 0.51 kW.

- Trip

Thanks Trip and Dmatch for all the info. I'm gonna check out your site and bookmark it Trip:)

@Arkyman:

Hopefully, post-transistion, KETS-DT will be similar to what you see in this map for KTHV-DT. It should be a slam dunk for you considering how well you do on the hard to get KASN-DT and KWBF-DT.

Edit: You're welcome Arkyman and Thanks Trip for the info and explanation of TVFool's calculations.

dmatch

Wow Trip, thats cool the way you go your site set up. Thanks a bunch, thats really gonna help me out on info:)

@Arkyman:

Hopefully, post-transistion, KETS-DT will be similar to what you see in this map for KTHV-DT. It should be a slam dunk for you considering how well you do on the hard to get KASN-DT and KWBF-DT.

dmatch

Oh heck yeah....Now thats what I'm talking about! I'll take all the "Free" tv I can get:D Thanks again Dmatch, your maps are a great help. Man what a difference. On the previous map, theirs just one small strip of coverage, on this one, the whole area is completely saturated with "SIGNAL".....YES:D

XP MCE 2005 can get all 4 KETS-DT channels. I wouldn't think Vista MCE would be different. If you add the channels and make the adjustments as we have been describing you should be able to get all 4 (2.1,2.1,2.3,2.4).

dmatch
Maybe if I could get a signal for it I would be concerned. hehehe No biggie to me.

I Love these Google Earth overlays.

dmatch
I'm in the green/yellow area of that just off the area where 430 and 630 meet up and I can't get it with my indoor antennas. One would think with the signal supposedly being that strong I could still. If I remember correct, those colors should indicate that people in the green get a strong signal, yellow slightly less, etc. Is that right?

I've always heard that VHF channels are generally easier to pick up than UHF.

I've always heard that VHF was harder to pick up than VHF. Thats why most stations go UHF for digital.

I've always heard that VHF was harder to pick up than VHF. Thats why most stations go UHF for digital.

I thought the FCC was taking most of the VHF channels back to use? I know that VHF is much easier to pick up in my area than UHF, but I think distance plays the biggest factor in that. I know VHF signals usually travel much farter than UHF. For you being so close to LR, it probably would not matter which band was used.

I'm in the green/yellow area of that just off the area where 430 and 630 meet up and I can't get it with my indoor antennas. One would think with the signal supposedly being that strong I could still. If I remember correct, those colors should indicate that people in the green get a strong signal, yellow slightly less, etc. Is that right?
The colors were described in a previous post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14462143#post14462143

But, yes, yellow/green should have reasonable coverage with rabbit ears according to the description posted. However, there is also a list of things that are not accounted for in determining the signal strength. Perhaps there is a very local environmental factor like trees or buildings hindering your reception that is not considered in calculations for the maps.

dmatch

I thought the FCC was taking most of the VHF channels back to use?....
Channels 2-51 will remain TV channels. 52-69 (=UHF) will get new usage and not be assigned to TV any longer. However, FCC was/is considering re-allocating 5 and 6 for FM radio usage, according to this:

http://blog.recnet.com/?postid=220

Deep in a notice of proposed rulemaking (NPRM) for broadcast diversity (MB Docket 07-294), the Federal Communications Commission, acting on a recommendation by Mullaney Engineering, would propose the expansion of the FM Broadcast Band to include the spectrum of TV Channels 5 and 6 (76-88 MHz).

dmatch

I had heard a year or so ago that the FCC was considering taking 2-6 vhf for some type of use

With the way this whole analog to digital conversion has been handled by government, about the only thing for sure is... It ain't over 'til it's over!

I had read that about the lower VHF but have never seen anything definitive lately other than 2-51 remaining TV channels. But as you can see from the article cited above (if it's true) there are already rumblings of re-arranging just what TV uses.

Here is an old article that says what you just mentioned (7-51 for TV Channels), but it is from 1996 and I think a lot has changed since then, including not switching to digital nearly as early as planned.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9901E7DE1739F936A15754C0A960958260

dmatch

After reading what Trip said about directional antennas with regard to Xmit power, I went to FCC website and found these 2 polar plots (attached) for the current KWBF-DT antenna transmission pattern and the proposed pattern under their construction permit.

Am I reading this wrong or will there be a huge change in radiation pattern? It appears that the pattern will no longer favor the north and have an extreme bias to the southeast.

If this is so it is NOT good news for me here north of Little Rock. Any ideas why they might want to do this?

dmatch

After reading what Trip said about directional antennas with regard to Xmit power, I went to FCC website and found these 2 polar plots (attached) for the current KWBF-DT antenna transmission pattern and the proposed pattern under their construction permit.

Am I reading this wrong or will there be a huge change in radiation pattern? It appears that the pattern will no longer favor the north and have an extreme bias to the southeast.

If this is so it is NOT good news for me here north of Little Rock. Any ideas why they might want to do this?

dmatch

Poor frequency coordination on the part of the FCC and KWBF. KYTV-DT ch 44 Springfield MO and KWBF-DT share the same DTV channel. I've actually received KYTV here at Star City leapfrogging the much weaker KWBF. KWBF should have chosen another in-core DTV channel. Parts of North Central Arkansas on the fringe will be a no-man's land for ch44 DTV after KWBF increases power. Central sections and parts of Eastern Lincoln County have the same situation with KARK and WABG and also down south of here with KTHV and KETZ

Coverage maps for KWBF-DT (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT657998.html) (projected full power), and KYTV-DT (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT594131.html) (@ Springfield, currently full power).

Note the blue lines, the signals are often received well outside those areas especially with favorable terrain (hilltops, lack of foliage, flat delta country) with high-gain outdoor antennas. In Searcy County, it appears that the two signals may "mix" and instead of "floaters" seen with analog signals when colliding, the two DTV's will both been seen by the receiver, but neither will decode if at or near equal strength.

Wow Trip, thats cool the way you go your site set up. Thanks a bunch, thats really gonna help me out on info:)

Glad you like it. =) Thank dmatch too, he's the one who sent me the TSReader data I needed to get the bitrates and call signs and resolutions and so on...

Channels 2-51 will remain TV channels. 52-69 (=UHF) will get new usage and not be assigned to TV any longer. However, FCC was/is considering re-allocating 5 and 6 for FM radio usage, according to this:

http://blog.recnet.com/?postid=220

dmatch

We'll see if anything comes of it. I plan to file comments in support of it, if I find the time to type them up.

After reading what Trip said about directional antennas with regard to Xmit power, I went to FCC website and found these 2 polar plots (attached) for the current KWBF-DT antenna transmission pattern and the proposed pattern under their construction permit.

Am I reading this wrong or will there be a huge change in radiation pattern? It appears that the pattern will no longer favor the north and have an extreme bias to the southeast.

If this is so it is NOT good news for me here north of Little Rock. Any ideas why they might want to do this?

dmatch

My guess is that the antenna is side-mounted. No point in beaming a bunch of power into the tower. I don't think it's related to KYTV, though I suppose it could be. (KHBS and KFTA are both closer to KOZK and KSFX in Springfield than KWBF is and don't seem to have issues with it)

To haley-SEA: KTHV and KETZ will be resolved next year. You'd think KARK or WABG would want to move or something.

- Trip

That (KYTV) would/could explain why.

Also, from looking at the coverage maps, when they pump all the "extra" power (going 1000 KW) into the Southeast they will also include Pine Bluff in their coverage area. The coverage area otherwise (besides toward Pine Bluff) does not seem to change very much.

The construction permit has a taller antenna in it so I guess as they shift their pattern from a north bias to a southeast bias the coverage to the north/northeast doesn't suffer, at least according to their engineering calculations.

dmatch

To haley-SEA: KTHV and KETZ will be resolved next year. You'd think KARK or WABG would want to move or something.

- Trip
Especially since the n+2 interference has been discovered. KLRT-DT is on 30 and KARK-DT is on 32. I get funky stutttteringgg audio on 32 much of the time (Edit: but only on my newest/best? tuner). And then there is also potential n+7 interference with 39. What a mess!

dmatch

(KHBS and KFTA are both closer to KOZK and KSFX in Springfield than KWBF is and don't seem to have issues with it)

To haley-SEA: KTHV and KETZ will be resolved next year. You'd think KARK or WABG would want to move or something.

- Trip

KOZK 21 and KSFX 27 will be gone next Feburary with the analog shutdown, so that is just a temporary issue with KHBS-DT and KFTA-DT (like present day WMC 5 and KETS-DT 5)

FWIW, I'd love for either KARK or WABG to move to separate channels :D

The colors were described in a previous post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14462143#post14462143

But, yes, yellow/green should have reasonable coverage with rabbit ears according to the description posted. However, there is also a list of things that are not accounted for in determining the signal strength. Perhaps there is a very local environmental factor like trees or buildings hindering your reception that is not considered in calculations for the maps.

dmatch
Tomorrow, during the daylight hours, I will take pictures of my surroundings and put them up here if you guys think you can tell anything from it. I think that might help if I have questions about my reception. I mean, it should be pretty easy to tell how much obstructions I have close by at least. In regards to the KASN/KETS tower in Redfield, its pretty much a straight shot to there. There isn't anything at all between me and it really except for one two story house right behind me, but even thats not a factor cause its not really that close and theres not that many trees. Heck, if you go to maps.google.com and look at the street view of my area, that might help too. I am near the intersection of Kanis and Point West Dr. to help narrow that down.

The other day I was doing some line of sight (LOS) calculations to determine if TVFool.com was calculating them correct (and they are) and even at about 1/2 a mile (don't remember the exact distance) from my antenna location the angle to the KWBF transmitter (the one I was checking) was so shallow that the signal was only up at 22 feet (which means it had no chance of getting thru the 200 ft. hill 1/2 mile away). I am much farther away than you so this calculation would not be the same for KWBF-DT to your location but KETS-DT is about as far from you as KWBF-DT is from me. So, Houses could definitely get in the way as well as trees.

When you post your pictures maybe you could estimate how far some of the objects are from your antenna and we can figure out if they are in the way of LOS.

dmatch

More FM frequencies, especially skip potential fm stations on tv ch 5 and 6 would be great. Hope they reserve once channel for personal FM transmitters. It would be great driving across country not to have to change frequencies every 50-100 miles.

Can't remember who asked, but VHF carries farther and hugs the earth better than UHF, but is more susceptable to noise. Antenna gain is much higher on UHF due to the amount of extra elements they can use compared to VHF. Its a catch-22.

The other day I was doing some line of sight (LOS) calculations to determine if TVFool.com was calculating them correct (and they are) and even at about 1/2 a mile (don't remember the exact distance) from my antenna location the angle to the KWBF transmitter (the one I was checking) was so shallow that the signal was only up at 22 feet (which means it had no chance of getting thru the 200 ft. hill 1/2 mile away). I am much farther away than you so this calculation would not be the same for KWBF-DT to your location but KETS-DT is about as far from you as KWBF-DT is from me. So, Houses could definitely get in the way as well as trees.

When you post your pictures maybe you could estimate how far some of the objects are from your antenna and we can figure out if they are in the way of LOS.

dmatch
Just realized I could use Google Earth to save an image of where I am. I believe I have left enough information visible so you guys can find it and do any of the calculations you have done. Keep in mind, the only channel I am having a problem getting, really, is KETS's digital stuff. The rest are okay, but if you wanna do any goesinta's for anything else, feel free.

More FM frequencies, especially skip potential fm stations on tv ch 5 and 6 would be great. Hope they reserve once channel for personal FM transmitters. It would be great driving across country not to have to change frequencies every 50-100 miles.

Can't remember who asked, but VHF carries farther and hugs the earth better than UHF, but is more susceptable to noise. Antenna gain is much higher on UHF due to the amount of extra elements they can use compared to VHF. Its a catch-22.

It was I that asked about the Vhf vs Uhf. Thanks for the clairification

Radar is Red
Directv is Blue
HD went out
Time for THV2

Radar is Red
Directv is Blue
HD went out
Time for THV2
huh? is it raining or something?

Yea, you could say that. Running off my roof so hard, I can't see the yard. AND, for the first time ever, I have measured rain fade on UHF. KTWN, normally 80% or more, dropped to 60% and started pixellating when the big red blob on the radar moved directly between Me and Cabot. Can't tell on the full power stations, but its definantly there on the low power. Wish I had a scope so I could measure the actual loss in db.

BTW, 99s LR 100% spots went away while 101 was still reading in the 40's and 50's... so much for locals during severe weather. Even the spot beam crapped out before the KU's.

Ahh, was watching OTA stuff and cable thru the puter. LOL....On my H20 my 103(b) is in the mid-30's down to 0. the 99(a) is as high as 34 and as low as 0. Guess it is raining, huh? :) Thats not too good about the spot beams going out. I was just about to check 99(b) for that very thing.

Edit: Maybe the 0's was cause it was scanning too fast for it. Its back up to even mid 20's to mid 30's

@steveken:

I just thought of a nifty way that you might tell if something is between you and KETS-DT.

If you can find the sun in the morning at 11:16 AM out of your ark window, when the floods have receded, the KETS-DT transmitter will be directly in line with the direction to the sun. This assumes that the transmitter is at 152 degrees from your location (from TVFool.com). The sun is due south at about 1:08 PM CDT at 92 degrees W longitude (about your longitude). Each hour of sun movement is 15 degrees. The sun will be at 152 degrees when it is 28 degrees before due south. That is 28/15 hours or 1 hour and 52 minutes. 1 hour and 52 minutes before 1:08 AM CDT is 11:16 AM CDT.

So, you can look in the direction of the sun at 9:16 AM CDT and you are looking directly at where the KETS-DT signal is coming from.

Edit:OOps! Adjusted wrong direction for daylight savings time. Have fixed it.

dmatch

ark window? floods receding? I don't think I need to go through all of that. I do have a compass. :) And I can just look out the window and see. And I don't think its really as far over as 152....or I guess it might be. Anyway, I am pretty sure that the reason I can't get them with an indoor antenna is 1) their low power, 2) there probably is something in the way that stops it from coming in very strong.

Noah's ark! The heavy rain! I hate explaining bad humor.

Well, a lot of people don't have compasses and even when they do they are not terribly easy to read. Then there's the magnetic declination stuff. It's actually listed on TVFool.com as 150 when adjusted.

BTW, I had adjusted for daylight savings time wrongly (changed the post) . So you could actually just look out the window toward the sun at 11:16 AM. Is that easy or what?

dmatch

ark window? floods receding? I don't think I need to go through all of that. I do have a compass. :) And I can just look out the window and see. And I don't think its really as far over as 152....or I guess it might be. Anyway, I am pretty sure that the reason I can't get them with an indoor antenna is 1) their low power, 2) there probably is something in the way that stops it from coming in very strong.

I don't know how far away from KETS-DT you are, but I have a low-VHF station here, I'm 79 miles away from it and most of the other stations, and while I can receive most of the UHF stations okay with an indoor antenna, I get no hint that WBRA-DT even exists with an indoor antenna. Even my new outdoor low-VHF antenna, I took it outside at ground level and got nothing.

I get 2.3 kW out of WBRA-DT, so it's comparable to KETS-DT's 2.1 kW max.

- Trip

I thought that was where you were trying to go. Guess my house it too quiet on the inside so it makes me oblivious to how hard the rains were.

In any case, thanks for helping to figure that out. The math on that must have been a pain. :) Although I knew the general direction of it, that wasn't the big head scratcher. I just wish stuff like why people within the supposed reception area don't get a signal was a bit more cut and dry and easy to understand. I mean, wouldn't it be nice if it were "if you are in this area, you WILL get it"? :) Wishful thinking.

Anyway, in the grand scheme of things, just like all of you have found out, AETN doesn't show hardly anything in HD, so I don't want to get them OTA anyway. Their stuff off the clearQAM on my computer is good enough for me. Plus, I get PBS-HD that way. I get wayyyyy more stuff off of that than I would any of the local channels. :)

Thanks again for lookin that up.

I don't know how far away from KETS-DT you are, but I have a low-VHF station here, I'm 79 miles away from it and most of the other stations, and while I can receive most of the UHF stations okay with an indoor antenna, I get no hint that WBRA-DT even exists with an indoor antenna. Even my new outdoor low-VHF antenna, I took it outside at ground level and got nothing.

I get 2.3 kW out of WBRA-DT, so it's comparable to KETS-DT's 2.1 kW max.

- Trip
From the tower site to my house I am 23.68 miles as the crow flies. Thats according to the ruler on Google Earth. So, as you can see, I am pretty damn close to it relatively speaking.

Like I said previously, I have two of the new Zenith DTT901 receivers with a glorified wire coat hanger for an antenna on them and they get a teeney tiny signal on them....not near enough to lock on to. You would just think that a person that is that close should be able to get something of a lockable signal off of it, regardless of the obstructions, wouldn't you???

You don't have aluminum siding or foil backed insulation in your walls do you? Those are the biggest two low vhf signal blockers. UHF scoots through windows and bounces around inside...vhf low is to fat to crawl in.

You don't have aluminum siding or foil backed insulation in your walls do you? Those are the biggest two low vhf signal blockers. UHF scoots through windows and bounces around inside...vhf low is to fat to crawl in.
When I put my amplified indoor/outdoor antenna, that does a great job on everything else indoors, out on the deck, it gets the same results on the HR20. So, either we blame a weak tuner, or we blame a weak signal. Since I get everything else, I say we blame the signal.

When I put my amplified indoor/outdoor antenna, that does a great job on everything else indoors, out on the deck, it gets the same results on the HR20. So, either we blame a weak tuner, or we blame a weak signal. Since I get everything else, I say we blame the signal.

If you are 23 miles from the tower, and I'm about 60 from you, that means not only do I blame the KETS weak signal as you do, but I blame it x60:D

lol

@steveken:

Don't discount the antenna as being a large part of the difficulty with receiving the KETS-DT signal.

Since all other channels are receivable, why shouldn't you get KETS-DT?

One reason this perceived paradox might exist is antenna size. For instance, a 1/2 wave dipole antenna for reception of channel 39 (KASN-DT) would only need to be about 9 inches long while the same 1/2 wave for channel 5 (KETS-DT) would need to be a little over 6 feet long. I say this to point out that the antenna characteristics to receive these 2 channels are vastly different. A small antenna is just not going to do well on low VHF.

The fact that you can receive all other channels on your antennas means very little with regard to receiving an acceptable signal on channel 5 VHF (KETS-DT), because ...

1) You are in a red zone on Google overlay maps for all the other channels (except KASN-DT and it is only 1 step lower) and red is almost the highest signal level mapped (only white is higher).

2) The antennas that you have described would seem to fit with the 1/2 wave characteristics of the other channels much better than KETS-DT would. For instance, the other VHF channel 12 (KTHV-DT) has a 1/2 wave length of only a little over 2 feet (compared to 6 feet for KETS-DT). All the other channels are even shorter in 1/2 wave length. Some are short enough to be full-wave.

In short you may be using an antenna that performs best on the easiest to get channels and poorer on the hardest to get channel.

Have you tried a simple T shaped FM antenna (a folded dipole)? Channel 5 is pretty close to the FM frequencies and it might work better for it.

In short, try an antenna that might be better for your hardest to get channel and poorer for you easiest to get channels.

dmatch

@steveken:

Don't discount the antenna as being a large part of the difficulty with receiving the KETS-DT signal.

Since all other channels are receivable, why shouldn't you get KETS-DT?

One reason this perceived paradox might exist is antenna size. For instance, a 1/2 wave dipole antenna for reception of channel 39 (KASN-DT) would only need to be about 9 inches long while the same 1/2 wave for channel 5 (KETS-DT) would need to be a little over 6 feet long. I say this to point out that the antenna characteristics to receive these 2 channels are vastly different. A small antenna is just not going to do well on low VHF.

The fact that you can receive all other channels on your antennas means very little with regard to receiving an acceptable signal on channel 5 VHF (KETS-DT), because ...

1) You are in a red zone on Google overlay maps for all the other channels (except KASN-DT and it is only 1 step lower) and red is almost the highest signal level mapped (only white is higher).

2) The antennas that you have described would seem to fit with the 1/2 wave characteristics of the other channels much better than KETS-DT would. For instance, the other VHF channel 12 (KTHV-DT) has a 1/2 wave length of only a little over 2 feet (compared to 6 feet for KETS-DT). All the other channels are even shorter in 1/2 wave length. Some are short enough to be full-wave.

In short you may be using an antenna that performs best on the easiest to get channels and poorer on the hardest to get channel.

Have you tried a simple T shaped FM antenna (a folded dipole)? Channel 5 is pretty close to the FM frequencies and it might work better for it.

In short, try an antenna that might be better for your hardest to get channel and poorer for you easiest to get channels.

dmatch
Yeah, I know its not best suited for VHF. I was trying to be a little of an antagonist towards KETS to get their darned transmitter power turned up. The antenna I am referencing that I use on my HR20 in the living room that I also tried outside is this one: http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5000836. In fact, I don't think its really supposed to even pick up VHF 12, but yet it does, and rather well at that. It is tuned to be a UHF antenna only.

As far as using a dipole antenna to try to get it, thats what I have on one of the Zenith boxes. Well, its a dipole tv antenna (rabbit ears in short). You know, the old kind with just the collapsing poles going into a single feed point into twin lead to a connector? Its not able to pick it up either, but thats probably because its not outside. Given the calculations Dave gave me one time on the length of wire I would need to make a good antenna, it would have to be around 11 feet long......I don't wanna build anything that big. Even 6 feet is too big.

When KETS cranks up the power, it might be a different story. So, if thats the case, I can wait until Feb. to see what happens.

Those are great points dmatch, that very well could be a big factor in his reception.

Steven, do you have a broadband(VHF/Uhf) ant you could mount outside and try it?

I looked at the link to your outside antenna. I was thinking that a traditional style broadband might serve you better, you would just need a small one in your area. Maybe like this CM

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC3016

OK, I attribute it to the current weather, but you know that dipole I was talking about that is hooked up to the Zenith? Well, its now getting all 4 KETS channels pretty easily. Its in my son's room, so thats a good thing. :)

Steveken, did you look at the CM 3016 in the link? Are you allowed to mount an antenna like that in the city where you live? I know that a lot of cities dont allow rooftop ants like the one I linked in residential areas

Yeah, we are allowed to. There are no restrictions here on what you can do. I am not going to put up something that huge if I can get what I want with the indoor one I have. Its just too big and ugly.

Remember, please, that none of this is about me being concerned about anything I can and cannot get. I am getting everything I want with relative ease right now and am happy with the setup. It was merely started by me talking about how, since I am relatively close to the tower, I couldn't get a good signal from KETS. The only place that might be a concern is in my sons room and, for the time being at least, that is resolved with the dipole rabbit ears on the set. I am not looking for any help really, nor am I looking to replace the antenna I have. I appreciate all the suggestions and help and everything, though. Its good to know that you guys are there to help out people with reception problems.

@steveken regarding objects in the way of reception of KETS-DT:

Edit:This is really just an academic exercise and part of what is kind of a hobby for me so ignore it if it bores you.

I calculated the slope (Rise/Run) of the transmitted signal to your location from KETS-DT and it is about 0.0128. That means that the height of the signal when it reaches an object is about 1/80th the distance to the object.

For instance, 80 feet away from your antenna the signal is 1 foot higher than at your antenna. If your antenna is 7 ft. above ground, then the signal would be 8 ft. above the ground as it heads for your antenna. Any object over 8 ft. tall at 80 ft. distance would block line of sight (LOS) to the antenna. That doesn't mean you won't get a signal just that the signal is less because it must diffract over and down from the top edge of the object.

In order for the full strength LOS signal to get over a 30 ft. house, the house must be (30-7)*80=1840 ft. away (assumes a 7 ft. antenna height). That's a little over 1/3 of a mile or about 5 city blocks. In order to get over a 60 ft. tree, the tree must be (60-7)*80=4240 feet away. That's over 3/4 mile.

What mitigates this loss of LOS due to objects is that the diffraction of the signal from the top edge of the object tends to fill in behind it. Low VHF tends to fill in behind the object better than high VHF or UHF so that is one benefit to the channel 5 (KETS-DT) signal.

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html

You may have seen this (and know all this already) but in case you haven't you might want to take a look at it.

It also explains those hot spots some of us have found for reception.

dmatch

Yeah, we are allowed to. There are no restrictions here on what you can do. I am not going to put up something that huge if I can get what I want with the indoor one I have. Its just too big and ugly.

Remember, please, that none of this is about me being concerned about anything I can and cannot get. I am getting everything I want with relative ease right now and am happy with the setup. It was merely started by me talking about how, since I am relatively close to the tower, I couldn't get a good signal from KETS. The only place that might be a concern is in my sons room and, for the time being at least, that is resolved with the dipole rabbit ears on the set. I am not looking for any help really, nor am I looking to replace the antenna I have. I appreciate all the suggestions and help and everything, though. Its good to know that you guys are there to help out people with reception problems.

Ok, just trying to help. I have a CM 3671 Crossfire way out here in the fringe, I personally think its a beautiful site to behold:)

OK, I attribute it to the current weather, but you know that dipole I was talking about that is hooked up to the Zenith? Well, its now getting all 4 KETS channels pretty easily. Its in my son's room, so thats a good thing. :)
KETS-DT is about 10% better in signal quality here also (low to mid 90s, usually mid 80s). Probably something to do with the 6000 ft. cloud deck reflecting (refracting?) the signal back down. I think I sometimes see signal quality increases on some of the poorer channels when there are clouds at the 4000-8000 ft. level, but not always.

dmatch

@steveken regarding objects in the way of reception of KETS-DT:

Edit:This is really just an academic exercise and part of what is kind of a hobby for me so ignore it if it bores you.

I calculated the slope (Rise/Run) of the transmitted signal to your location from KETS-DT and it is about 0.0128. That means that the height of the signal when it reaches an object is about 1/80th the distance to the object.

For instance, 80 feet away from your antenna the signal is 1 foot higher than at your antenna. If your antenna is 7 ft. above ground, then the signal would be 8 ft. above the ground as it heads for your antenna. Any object over 8 ft. tall at 80 ft. distance would block line of sight (LOS) to the antenna. That doesn't mean you won't get a signal just that the signal is less because it must diffract over and down from the top edge of the object.

In order for the full strength LOS signal to get over a 30 ft. house, the house must be (30-7)*80=1840 ft. away (assumes a 7 ft. antenna height). That's a little over 1/3 of a mile or about 5 city blocks. In order to get over a 60 ft. tree, the tree must be (60-7)*80=4240 feet away. That's over 3/4 mile.

What mitigates this loss of LOS due to objects is that the diffraction of the signal from the top edge of the object tends to fill in behind it. Low VHF tends to fill in behind the object better than high VHF or UHF so that is one benefit to the channel 5 (KETS-DT) signal.

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html

You may have seen this (and know all this already) but in case you haven't you might want to take a look at it.

It also explains those hot spots some of us have found for reception.

dmatch
Cool, thanks for all of that. I kinda remembered the theory of a lot of that stuff from a long time ago, but its just one of those things if you don't use it, you tend to forget all about until someone smarter than you points it out. :) Its one of those things serious ham radio operators know, but not serious ones like me don't remember unless we just have to and do research on it on the web.

Ok, just trying to help. I have a CM 3671 Crossfire way out here in the fringe, I personally think its a beautiful site to behold:)
Oh, I know you are. And believe me, I do appreciate the fact you are willing to help. I just didn't want you guys to waste your time on me if you could be doing something much better. I mean, you do have better stuff to do than deal with my silly spiels, don't you? :)

Here in the city people can kinda give you a funny look if you have a large thing on your house. hehe Plus, you have to remember some of our wives (like mine) don't like it when you put stuff on the roof. She likes things just a certain way (if you know what I mean). I wouldn't mind one myself if I could see much of a benefit of one, but since things work now as-is, it won't fly cause instead of being a necessity, its looked on as an eye-sore.

KETS-DT is about 10% better in signal quality here also (low to mid 90s, usually mid 80s). Probably something to do with the 6000 ft. cloud deck reflecting (refracting?) the signal back down. I think I sometimes see signal quality increases on some of the poorer channels when there are clouds at the 4000-8000 ft. level, but not always.

dmatch
yeah, thats what I was thinking was the cause of actually getting it. I also think I might have had the dipoles in the wrong configuration before, so my moving them helped. The signal is almost up to the upper end of the scale on the signal meter.

Cool, thanks for all of that.
You're welcome. It was interesting finding out just how shallow an angle the signals are coming in at and I like messing with Google Earth.

dmatch

I drove by KEMV's tower about 4 hours ago, and it was IN the clouds :)

http://www.tr40cra.com/

7-1 is one hour ahead on its guide data. Its showing "According to Jim" on right now at 9:30.

Ever wonder why ch 1 doesn't exist? I never knew it was assigned as the FM radio band before. Lots of great tv history in this article. Its a must read. The Day Television Died...
http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=wq.essay&essay_id=433527

I had been watching the Olympics in glorious HD via OTA with my rabbit ears, but I guess this weather is putting a stop to it. It started getting a little dicey yesterday, worse today, and tonight I can't bring 4-1 in at all on my HR20.

Crap.:(

Nothings changed here. Still getting everything about the same.

On a side note, I am getting a little frustrated with this site making me log out and log in when I want to make a simple post. Its kind of a pain. Anyway, just thought I would say that to see if anyone else is having troubles.

KARK OTA signal strength is a little higher for me right now. I have the hardest time picking up the stations OTA even though I'm just a few mile away. Unfortunately, the house is in a valley. Deep enough to make most channels nearly impossible to pick up.

On a separate note, I'm moving to the U. of Oklahoma tomorrow so I won't be around in this thread very much. Gotta wake up the OKC thread...

Thanks for all the help and discussion, I'll be around!

Nothings changed here. Still getting everything about the same.

On a side note, I am getting a little frustrated with this site making me log out and log in when I want to make a simple post. Its kind of a pain. Anyway, just thought I would say that to see if anyone else is having troubles.
Site is acting normal for me. Staying logged in as usual. I only come in from e-mail notification links, if that makes a difference.

dmatch

If I waited for the email notifications, I would have 2 or 3 pages to read. This thing does not send me emails often enough. Its very unpredictable when it will send.

Once I enter via e-mail link then I may or may not remain here for a while. I don't necessarily leave and wait for another e-mail. I was just trying to point out that mine was working normally but that if you enter by another method we might be comparing apples and oranges. I wasn't trying to convince you to use e-mail links as a solution.

That said, I think the way e-mail notification is supposed to work is that you won't get another e-mail notification until after you have visited avsforum.com . Also, how often they are retrieved is set in most e-mail clients.

If I type in http://www.avsforum.com I am also automatically logged in, so I guess something is not set correctly or is SNAFUed in your case.

dmatch

Oh, ok. I wasn't meaning for that to sound snippy. I was saying that kinda jokingly, just left off the :) for once. hehehe Anyway, what I usually do is just leave the window up and hit F5 every now and then. I usually just pitch the emails as soon as I get them. I don't care for the formatting. Its when I try to do quick replies when its left open that I get a security code error or something like that. It has something to do with cookies. I didn't have the problem until they had that d-base crash a while back. I will start using the email links though and see if that fixes it. It could be that they are having small problems with the site still.

No problem steveken.

Heh, this may be something as simple as don't logout when you leave. I just leave. I never logout because I don't want to login again and again.

Edit:Oh wait! This is starting to read like a security issue. Could it be you are using IEXplore on Vista? I use Firefox on XP or Me and have never seen any of those security type warnings that you mentioned.

dmatch

LOL, ME? LOL Sorry, THAT in itself is a security issue. :)

Nah, I use Firefox on Vista 64-bit Ultimate. I never log out either. When I left the page up, I was always logged in. If I see that message again, I will post it up here so you can see it. Its solved by a simple logging out, logging back in, then coming back to here to post it. Not real hard, but certainly aggravating. :)

You said something about cookies. I do have my browser set to accept cookies. I don't like doing it but I believe that the forums uses them to keep track of a lot of stuff and if you don't accept them it might not be able to log you in and out automatically.

Just another thought.

dmatch

Yeah, thats what the admin person I emailed about it said it was related to. It was like the cookie was getting corrupted and logging fixes it.

Do you click "Remember Me" when you login? I don't know if that would change anything or not. Just thought I would mention it.

EDIT:You could also try deleting the Avsforum cookies in Firefox to make it load them again. Beware though, you may have to resubscribe to forum notifications again and it may not remember some other stuff that you have personalized.

dmatch