It doesn't matter on the remember me. I always do that. and deleting the cookie does nothing either because I just wiped my system a couple days ago and have already had it happen once. its purely a problem with their side.

Anyway, these other guys are probably sick of seeing this. Until I get that message again, go ahead and pm me about it. :) don't wanna make anyone go "geez, get back on topic guys!" :)

7-1 is one hour ahead on its guide data. Its showing "According to Jim" on right now at 9:30.
Now that was on topic.;)

It's still messed up. Equity Broadcasting is responsible for transmission of the signal but I don't know who does or how they do the EPG data. 42.1 is all "DTV Program", 42.3 (KATV) is still an hour off like you said and so is 42.3 (KKYK).

You can probably blame me for this. I think an e-mail I was sending to anyone I came across was responsible for getting the time (and Daylight Savings flag correct) but now the EPG is all SNAFUed. No one ever answered any e-mail so I can't be sure. It could have been a coincidence.

I am about ready to enter an electronic complaint with the FCC. They should have got all this correct long before now.

If I can find out if Low Power digital TV stations are required to meet the same regulations regarding time accuracy and EPG information as Full Power then I'll be making an assault on KTWN in Searcy too. Their time is 1 hour 18 minutes off and they do not have any EPG info.

If we have to transition and play the digital game then they should have to also.

dmatch

This question is off topic but I know this is the best place to find the answer.

The company I work for maintains its own mini cable system. With the switch over to digital, analog tuner televisions are going to become difficult to find.

What is needed to convert an analog composite video/audio signal to a QAM signal that can be distributed over our existing infrastructure?

Thanks

This question is off topic but I know this is the best place to find the answer.

The company I work for maintains its own mini cable system. With the switch over to digital, analog tuner televisions are going to become difficult to find.

What is needed to convert an analog composite video/audio signal to a QAM signal that can be distributed over our existing infrastructure?

Thanks
Sorry, you might need to be a little more specific about your setup.....well, for me at least. Are you getting your signal OTA? What is this "analog composite video/audio signal" that you are trying to use? Just need a little more so I understand what you are asking exactly.



EDIT: I think what you are concerned with might be the whole "Will our cable system be viewable on these older analog sets as well as the new digital sets". If thats your concern/question, you don't have anything to worry about. The analog signals work differently than cable. If I am not mistaken, the cable tuners in sets are completely separate as are the QAM tuners and will still function properly post switch. There should be nothing you as a company should have to do to keep your customers able to get the signal.




FYI, THIS is the message I was talking about yesterday that I get every now and then since the crash of the db.
"Quick Reply
The following errors occurred with your submission

1. Your submission could not be processed because a security token was invalid.

If this occurred unexpectedly, please inform the administrator and describe the action you performed before you received this error."

The signal source is from satellite receivers. Currently we are using 12 Blonder-Tongue commercial receivers and using modulators to take the composite video and analog audio for use on VHF channels 2-13.

The signal is being amplified and sent to the 25 floor of our building

Oh, so what you are talking about is using RF Modulators just like really old tv's needed to use to be able to get a dvd player to work on it? Gotcha. Umm, well, in that case, don't those modulators work pretty much like a cable tv signal in the first place?

no, just the oposite, using your example, I want to take a DVD composite signal and watch it on channel 8-1 in SD on a TV with only a digital tunner

Well, what I am asking this stuff for is so you don't have to go through all the trouble of trying to figure out how to do QAM broadcasts. If the modulators already output a signal that works exactly the same as a normal cable systems signal, then you should have absolutely nothing to worry about because the newer tv's are still able to receive standard non-digital cable tv.

And, if I am not mistaken, the newer flat panel tv's produced now still have analog receivers built into them because not everyone is required to switch to digital. You have low-power stations that are still allowed to do analog broadcasts. Thus, they leave the old analog tuners in them. I know my plasma and my lcd both have analog tuners in them.

i assume that TV's will follow in the same direction that VCRs have.

It is almost impossible to find a VCR that has a analog tuner. The manufactures are doing everything possible to cut production costs so I know that analog tuners will only be an option on more expensive tvs.

What we really want is to duplicate our current analog system with a digial system over the same infrastructe eventually converting to HD. What we want is a tiny version of the local cable company.

I haven't used a VCR in years, so I didn't know they had taken analog tuners out of them. I assume that is a safe measure for them as most low-power stations that will continue with analog broadcasting won't carry soap operas or other things like that that the people who use VCR's would still want to record. Of course, I have no idea who uses VCR's anymore either.

So, all in all, what you are saying is that the setup you guys have does NOT rebroadcast the signal like a regular cable system does? You are saying that any of your users could use an antenna if they wanted to in order to receive the signals?? Or, is your setup one where you would set your tv's tuner to cable instead of antenna to get the signal and you HAVE to get it via a cable from the wall?

ok, Let me try to explain this with more detail.
Here is the setup:

station station
3 weather chanel
4 KARK
5 CNBC
6 ESPN
7 KATV
8 FOX NEWS
9 CNN
10 Headline News
11 KTHV
12 MSNBC
13 Bloomberg TV

This is going to 300 tv over coax. What we want to do is send the exact same signals on 3-1, 4-1,5-1, 6-1,7-1,8-1,9-1,10-1,11-1,12-1,13-1 so that newer tvs (9" to 13") can recive the signals over the same coax cable as the older analog tvs do.

Basically, what it boils down to this, I believe you are confusing the whole analog vs digital thing just like everyone else has done. The government just has done nothing to help the situation.

IF your customers HAVE to use a cable coming from the wall to receive your signals, then you are fine. Those tuners are NOT going away. The standard cable television infrastructure is not affected at all by the Feb. 17th deadline. Those tuners have to continue to work.

The only people that have to worry about converting anything at all are the people who receive your signal via over-the-air antennas.

If you receive all your programming via satellite, then use RF Modulators to put the signal out onto your cable system where the people have to use the cable from the wall into the TV and have no other way to receive the signal, you guys have nothing to do to your setup right now.

The only time you have to worry about anything at all is if/when you decide to start doing HD across your system. Given the amount of money all that equipment is likely to cost over the next few years, you are better off letting the customers get the signal via over-the-air antennas on their digital TV's. There are likely not going to be a whole lot of people who are going to be overly concerned about HD right now. There are far too many people out there who just can't tell a difference and could care less if they got an HD signal.

Now, keep in mind that all of this is just my opinion and I don't know jack sh*t about cable TV operations or the demand of users. I just know what I read, see, and hear about all of this from what goes on all around me. You can take what I say with a grain of salt. The only people on here who might know is arxaw (which I haven't seen in a few days now) and maybe DaveNLR. If there are others here who know, I am not aware of their knowledge, so I will just let them speak up when they are ready.

This is going to 300 tv over coax. What we want to do is send the exact same signals on 3-1, 4-1,5-1, 6-1,7-1,8-1,9-1,10-1,11-1,12-1,13-1 so that newer tvs (9" to 13") can recive the signals over the same coax cable as the older analog tvs do.
This is exactly what I am trying to tell you. Cable TV reception is NOT going away. It would cost far too much to replace the current infrastructure with all the equipment necessary to completely rip out all the old analog cable system to replace it with pure digital. For instance, a Comcast customer that is just a generic basic TV package receiver does NOT have to go out and get a set top box to receive the analog cable TV signal. This will NOT change. They will continue to receive the analog cable TV on ANY new TV that they buy.

Newer TV's (9" to 13") receive regular analog EDIT:CABLE TV exactly the same way as the older analog TV's do. The HRC (I hope thats the right industry abbreviation for the cable standard. Kinda like ATSC and NTSC except for it applies to cable.) tuners have not been removed, nor will they ever be. Exactly the same thing with VCR's that you mentioned before. They will still tune HRC cable TV.

http://www.dtv.gov/consumercorner.html#faq30

Answers everything you are asking pretty much.

No, new VCRs HAVE NO TUNER at all and there is a disclaimer on the outside of the box that states a cable tuner or satellite receiver is required to record.

It has been this way for a year or so. And low cost TVs will be going the same way.

Well I'll be damned!! I didn't know they had removed ALL tuners from vcrs! What the hell is the point then??? I expect they do sell some with digital tuners in them though, right? And do all of them support clearQAM tuning? I know even about 6 months ago you had to buy specific tuner cards for your computer that said they WILL do it, but it was always a crap shoot on whether they would or not.

@hpb:

Is the only reason you want to change your cable system to digital so that clients can record?

What did you have in mind clients would record with? PVR? Computer? TIVO? DVD Recorder?

I'm not being sarcastic as I haven't done much research on this type thing lately, but I'm not sure there are a lot of choices to do that. Most PVR systems I am familiar with are geared toward a specific program supplier, like DishNet, DirectTV, or cable company PVRs. And TIVO requires a subscription and assumes you are in their database or that you will manual record everything.

DVD recorders with ATSC/QAM are rather expensive but I suppose that could be a solution. Also, I believe the JVC DVD Recorder also does NTSC (analog TV). Also the Toshiba DVD/VCR combo has analog tuner too. The ones I have seen so far that are DVD recorders for ATSC/QAM will also do NTSC analog TV.

A digital version of your analog input is not going to be better so that would not be a reason to switch to digital. You can't create quality that is not in the original.

However, if you really want to convert to digital, from what little I know, you are going to need some sort of Agile QAM modulator. The ones I have seen are designed for MPEG2 ASI input and not analog so some sort of analog to MPEG2 conversion with ASI output might be required also.

Edit: I wouldn't change anything until I had too and would hope that more reasonable/integrated solutions are available at that time, but then I'm lazy and believe strongly in "If it ain't broke don't fix it."

Here is one DVD/VCR recorder with ATSC/QAM/NTSC tuner:

http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/productDetail.do?oid=207140&om_keycode=93

dmatch

Really? I just bought a VCR (NTSC & ATSC SD) + DVD Burner at walmart 3-4 months ago when my 15 year old one died.

Edit, this was in reply to 6009 above.

No, new VCRs HAVE NO TUNER at all and there is a disclaimer on the outside of the box that states a cable tuner or satellite receiver is required to record.

It has been this way for a year or so. And low cost TVs will be going the same way.


That disclaimer refers to not having an ATSC (read digital) tuner in them. They still have the analog tuner. That's how it gets the signal from the set top box in 90% of cases via channel 3-4 on RF.

@hpb:

DVD recorders with ATSC/QAM are rather expensive but I suppose that could be a solution. Also, I believe the JVC DVD Recorder also does NTSC (analog TV). Also the Toshiba DVD/VCR combo has analog tuner too. The ones I have seen so far that are DVD recorders for ATSC/QAM will also do NTSC analog TV.


When my old 15 year old VCR bit the dust 6 months ago we picked up a NTSC/ATSC (don't remember if it does QAM but I suspect it does) VCR/DVD recorder at wal-mart for ~120 which is about what I paid for my VCR 15 years ago.

The prices are dropping

@Byrdnest:

I'm glad there are more reasonably priced ones becoming available. I referred to the first ones I ran across and did not do a thorough search.

@ALL:

In a previous post I took credit for causing the correction of time on the KWBF-DT transmissions (which include KATV-DT) and subsequently the SNAFU of the EPG data. It appears the contact that had the effect was via feedback thru KATV web page.

Thank you, Richard Farrester (Program Director).

The EPG now has the right air time for KATV's programming but KWBF's and KKYK's are still SNAFUed. KKYK shows Air Wolf all day, LOL. KWBF still has only "DTV Program".

I think they are pushing a chain over there at Equity.

dmatch

No, We purchase VCRs to use on LCD projectors for use with our system and it is almost impossible to find a VCR with any kind of tuner (NTSC or ATSC)

We have strayed from the original question.

How do I encode a QAM signal from a composite video source? Comcast has a device somewhere in the signal path that takes a video source(HD most likely) nad encodes it to QAM for distribution. That is what I want to do.

And I am very aware and understand the difference between NTSC, ATSC, QAM, composite, component, DVI, RGBHV, HDMI and almost every other video transmission signaling and video signal connection. I also understand that in Feb 2009 that cable and satellite will NOT be affected by the switch to digital transmission.

Right this down: "Low end televisions will no longer have analog tuners in a couple of years. There will be almost NO demand except for the odd situation like I have with a home grown analog cable system"

I just want to send video and audio of my choosing on a closed circiut system on QAM or even ATSC for a digital only display device.

Well, I didn't intend to stray. That is why I wrote this:
@hpb:
However, if you really want to convert to digital, from what little I know, you are going to need some sort of Agile QAM modulator. The ones I have seen are designed for MPEG2 ASI input and not analog so some sort of analog to MPEG2 conversion with ASI output might be required also.
dmatch
Here is an Agile QAM modulator from Blonder Tongue:

http://www.blondertongue.com/Agile-QAM-Modulator/Agile_QAM_Modulators.php

However, you will see from the description it needs MPEG2 ASI input. Analog input won't do.

dmatch

dmatch,

Thanks, that is at least a step in the right direction.

Perhaps we need new satellite receivers with some sort of digital output that is compatible with the QAM encoders.

This is the first thing I ran across that does analog to MPEG2 ASI output. Beware I know very little about this and as you may know "A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing". I'm really just doing Google searches.

http://digicastivy.hisupplier.com/product-137101-4-in-1-mpeg-2-encoder-with-asi-output.html

dmatch

Still brainstorming. Here's an 8 channel MPEG2/ASI encoder:

http://www.crypton.com.ua/en/dig_equip_cod_881_asi.html

Check it. It has a block diagram on how to use.

Edit:As pointed out later in this thread (by Dan'sHiPix) this is PAL/SECAM only. However, the block diagram could still shed some light on how these things might be used.

dmatch

Right this down: "Low end televisions will no longer have analog tuners in a couple of years. There will be almost NO demand except for the odd situation like I have with a home grown analog cable system"
Then what happens to all of the hundreds of thousands of basic cable subscribers all throughout the United States??? Are they going to be screwed over by EVERY SINGLE cable company throughout the United States by being forced to rent their set top converter boxes when they buy a new TV? I hardly think that will fly with anyone. There has to be a standard, cable ready tuner within the TV's that will allow them to receive basic cable or else you probably aren't going to have many cable customers buying new TV's. It's not even like the cable company is going to just turn off the analog cable signal anytime soon. It's just too valuable of a property for them.

There is an extremely large number of people out there that just will not have anything to do with a set top box for regular cable. They have just gotten too used to be able to plug the cable into their cable ready televisions to get their signal.

Or will the cable companies make it where you can get basic cable across the digital tuner? I highly doubt that will happen. I don't even think there is a remote chance of happening. I only think they have the local channels in clearQAM because they are forced to by the FCC.

As far as your question about how Comcast gets their signals and reencodes them into QAM for distribution. For the local channels, it is fed to them automatically by each station in the format that they need I believe. Alison Fletcher from KTHV can answer that question for us most likely. I don't know if her duties as Technology Director cover that sort of thing, or if she is only responsible for the computer equipment throughout the station. In any case, I bet she could find out that answer for you.

For the rest of the stuff Comcast pulls off the satellites for retransmission, I am willing to bet that the receiving boxes for those satellites automatically output it in a format that is ready for transmitting like that.

In any case, I think you guys are going to have to shell out some big money to get the transcoding you are wanting accomplished. I just wouldn't think that it would be economically advantageous to try to carry out this switchover now. Not until prices drop on equipment.

And, for the record, the only reason for all of my posts on the rest of this with the tuners and all was my attempt to understand what might be going on with cable systems in the future. And to try to get a grasp on the future of tuner technology in consumer devices.

this is already happening in some markets and people are NOT happy. If I recall correctly there are some cable systems in Chicago that require that you use a settop box or have a tv with a digital ATSC\QAM tuner.

It has already happened

That just really sucks. Oh well, guess I am okay with it since I have been with satellite for several years now. I already deal with a box. Its just going to make it more difficult for me if they shut off the analog feed of the signal here. I use my tv tuner cards to record things every now and then. Admittedly, I do clearQAM recording more than I do analog cable just because the analog cable looks like biological waste.

And I am very aware and understand the difference between NTSC, ATSC, QAM, composite, component, DVI, RGBHV, HDMI and almost every other video transmission signaling and video signal connection. I also understand that in Feb 2009 that cable and satellite will NOT be affected by the switch to digital transmission.

Right this down: "Low end televisions will no longer have analog tuners in a couple of years. There will be almost NO demand except for the odd situation like I have with a home grown analog cable system"

I just want to send video and audio of my choosing on a closed circiut system on QAM or even ATSC for a digital only display device.

You ask a very good question. I personally do not know of any boxes out there which do an analog to QAM conversion. The one posted on the previous link WILL NOT WORK. The format clearly states it is for PAL. This is the European standard for tv.

As far as how Comcast does it, they receive our digital signals over the air and then convert it to QAM. What gear they use to accomplish this with, I do not know. I do know we do not send it to them in that format. We send out eiter ASI or 8VSB.

I thought all cable companies had to switch to digital by Feb 2009 also. I thought they were supposed to abandoned the analog service for updated digital service? TV's in the near future will not have NTSC tuners, all will be ATSC/Qam if I'm understanding correctly on the issue. I know my area is served by Suddenlink. I'm not a subscriber by the way, partly because way out here in the sticks, they currently still serve up good old degraded analog. I called them about a month ago and asked if this area would ever be updated to digital, they said definitely by the end of this year or the start of 2009, they told me that it was mandated of them to upgrade every service area to all digital before Feb 2009. Small dishes dont have to swap to digital because they are already digital. Analog tvs receive the signals and display them because the receivers like the Dish 301 convert the received digital signal into an analog signal that the tv can use. This is why they say if you are currently using an older analog set that your service will continue, its because the boxes convert the digital to analog, much like or exactly like the new STB OTA Digital to Analog Converters that are being pushed so that analogs can continue to get a signal after Feb 2009. Those older boxes like the Dish 301 will continue to convert the digital signals to analog after Feb 2009. Dish and Directv are already compliant, unlike many cable companies who still use analog, the small dishes are already compliant with the FCC and dont have to change a thing. I've been reading and trying to understand the last page or so, and I may be reading it wrong, but it sounds as if some are under the influence that analog signals will still be broadcast from the Locals, small dishes and cable companies. This is not true, they all have to switch to a digital format. As for the smaller stations, its my understanding that they also have to switch but are on a extended time table to do so.

As for the VCR's, I'll say this. VCR's (unless its a $1,000+ HDTV ver.) are crap for video. something like 280 lines of resolution and thats the best ones. In this day and age of advanced technology in the Broadcast business, what is the point of a VCR?:confused: They are the worst PQ you can get and on an HDTV, they are nothing but a downgraded version of a lot of already downgraded programs. I dont mean this toward anyone, I'm just kinda confused about it. In a world of 480p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p, I just dont see where 280i has a place unless your just hooking it up to an extra composite or S-vid so you can watch past years recordings, that I do understand. The part about wanting a tuner and actually putting the huge downgraded VCR in an SD or HD system, I totally do not understand. Like I said, I like all you guys, no hard feeling intended, I'm just trying to get my brain around that one. Maybe I've missed something and I'm the one whos confused.:confused: IF so, please correct me.:)

Only OTA NTSC Full Power transmissions must convert to digital. THis has nothing to do with what cable or satellite decides to do. However, it sure looks like analog will soon be dead everywhere.

1st step in plugging the so-called "analog hole" and ensuring universal copy protection is to eliminate analog content.

Next step, get rid of all analog devices or devices that convert from digital to analog. You should see those composite and SVideo outputs start disappearing from devices soon, if not already. You better hang on to your whole house distribution systems and hope they were well made. A digital replacement may be a nightmare in implementation and cost...if it is available in a consumer form at all.

Of course, another "hole" in copy protection is the personal computer. Vista will eventually take care of that. From what I have read about Vista it is essentially a Digital Rights Management system waiting to be implemented. It could also be a system hacker's fondest dream, but that's another story.

I really hate to see analog die. Don't get me wrong, I love a well done HDTV wide screen picture but I'm just not sure I would like to give up all rights to create "fair use" copies in order to get that, *especially with some of the crap pictures we get anyway. I believe "fair use" copying will die with analog. An analog signal encoded to computer in MPEG looks many many times better than clunky VCRs. So there is still a world in which analog can be used under "fair use" and look good too.

The difference between a good NTSC picture and a digital HDTV picture is mostly the wide screen aspect ratio, IMHO. People I know who watch TV casually will notice the HDTV wide screen and like it, but I have also noticed that they can't tell much difference between analog wide screen and digital HDTV wide screen unless it is side by side. Here's why I think that.

I send a copy of my OTA signal to the 2 houses next to me so that all three of us do not have to maintain antennas (ain't that nice?). I can also send a copy of what I am watching on my computer on channel 3 in good old analog (the distribution amp and the RG6 wire doesn't care). My computer squeezes a wide screen HD picture into a horizontally squeezed 4:3 analog composite output and I modulate it with an 2 year old DVD recorder onto channel 3. When that channel 3 signal reaches the other houses' TVs, they re-stretch it to wide screen. Even after all the machinations to the signal it looks remarkably good. My neighbors both asked me how I was doing HDTV on channel 3 like that. I know it is not as good as the original but if you can't see the original it looks perfectly acceptable on their smaller HDTVs, *especially compared to some of the stuff that we get locally.

*Edit:These statements keep this post kind sorta on topic for this forum. :rolleyes:

dmatch

Only OTA NTSC Full Power transmissions must convert to digital. THis has nothing to do with what cable or satellite decides to do. However, it sure looks like analog will soon be dead everywhere.



The difference between a good NTSC picture and a digital HDTV picture is mostly the wide screen aspect ratio, IMHO. People I know who watch TV casually will notice the HDTV wide screen and like it, but I have also noticed that they can't tell much difference between analog wide screen and digital HDTV wide screen unless it is side by side. Here's why I think that.

I send a copy of my OTA signal to the 2 houses next to me so that all three of us do not have to maintain antennas (ain't that nice?). I can also send a copy of what I am watching on my computer on channel 3 in good old analog (the distribution amp and the RG6 wire doesn't care). My computer squeezes a wide screen HD picture into a horizontally squeezed 4:3 analog composite output and I modulate it with an 2 year old DVD recorder onto channel 3. When that channel 3 signal reaches the other houses' TVs they re-stretch it to wide screen. Even after all the machinations to the signal it looks remarkably good. My neighbors both asked me how I was doing HDTV on channel 3 like that. I know it is not as good as the original but if you can't see the original it looks perfectly acceptable on his smaller HDTVs especially compared to some of the stuff that we get locally.

dmatch

IMO, anyone who cant tell the difference in a full 480i or even 480p and 720p and up needs to make an appointment with the eye doctor. Now I can understand this if they are viewing these signals on 480i analog sets because either feed you give them will max out their sets capabilities. But if you talking an HDTV and they dont see the diff, all I can say is they are either hooked up wrong or dont know what they are talking about one. I'll give you a few examples. First, I've never hooked up someones HDTV for them or shown them mine that they immeadiately could not tell a huge difference in the best analog and true HDTV. I mean immeadiate response of , Wow, thats like night and day. About 4 years ago, I took out a sub with Dishnetwork. I got the HD-811 receiver at the time. The installer hooked it all up to my then Mits 65" WS HD-monitor. He did not use component but rather hooked up S-vid. He sat down on my couch and began to play with the channels for a moment, tuned to HDNET , HBOHD and few more HD's. They looked ok but surely not what I expected. He then made the comment, "I just dont see what the big deal is about HD, I've hooked up a bunch of these 811's and I'm just not seeing it" I asked him had he ever used the component hookups and he said no. Also, none of the internal settings in them menu were set to a 16x9 but to a 4x3 display. I told him to hang on a minute. I got behind the tv and hooked up the components from the 811 to my input on the tv. I then swapped inputs and heard....."Oh my God thats clear as bell!" I sat down and said, yeah watch this. I went into the menus and changed all the settings to 16x9. The box swithed everything to Widescreen and once again I heard "Wow its filling the whole screen and it looks like your looking out the window its so clear!" The installer was shocked and amazed, he admitted to me right on the spot that he had no idea you could hook those boxes up to HDTV's like that. He said he now knew why folks who had truly seen HD wanted it so badly. He sat there with me for the next 30 minutes watching National Secruity with Martin Lawrence and Steve Zahn on HBOHD. He finally got up and said, "well I've got a few more stops, I'd like to stay and watch it for a while longer, that truly is amazing"

As for on topic, I figure anything "Arkansas related is on topic here" and we are Arkansans:)

Saw where Cable Co serving Chicago, New York and one other major city is going full digital only. This makes sense. Their money is going to come from the digital hdtv subs...With analog hogging all the bandwidth, they will loose those customers to satellite.

HD Tivos and some TV's offer cablecard slots. This does away with the "cable box" and still allows premium programming to be received.

FCC banned any consumer device sold after a certain date (long past) from containing an analog only tuner...hence, no tuner vcr's or expensive ones with atsc/ntsc tuners.

I think what the OP wanted was to be able, using a MATV system, from sending 12 channels in ATSC, requiring nothing except a built in tuner? I have not seen any affordable ATSC encoders...probably why cable is using QAM.

@Arkyman:

Let's be fair now, you seemed to have ignored a lot of qualifying remarks and did that "if" thing in order to make your point, which you did fine BTW.;)

I am still willing to defend my position, especially regarding our local HD TV transmissions. (on topic statement :rolleyes:)

For instance, the answer to this "if":
But if you talking an HDTV and they dont see the diff, all I can say is they are either hooked up wrong or dont know what they are talking about one.
is...Yes, I am talking HDTVs, all be it smaller ones (a qualification that I did make). And there is really not much to hooking one up for OTA. You just screw in the cable. They don't have to "know what they are talking about." They see what they see and they DO see differences in pictures, especially between some of the poor quality on some local channels, and some better quality on other local channels (I could name them if that would put us better on topic...NOT). The stuff I send them I said was "acceptable," as in I see worse stuff all the time on digital TV and this is Okay. I never said there wasn't a difference. Matter of fact I think the additional quality of HDTV could be awe-inspiring, especially if compared to a poor NTSC picture or some of the crappy analog digital encoded pictures that HDTVs do now with washed out soft pictures.

Regarding your reference to best analog:
First, I've never hooked up someones HDTV for them or shown them mine that they immeadiately could not tell a huge difference in the best analog and true HDTV.

Here's an "if" of my own. ;)

If you are depending on OTA TV for a source of best analog (especially using an HDTV that has to do analog to digital conversion) you may be using a less than best source to compare to. While OTA NTSC broadcasts can look good for what they are (before being MPEG encoded by an HDTV) the original satellite transmitted version, generally speaking of course, has more color saturation and takes full advantage of the 480i format. That's as close to real NTSC as I can get with less degradation due to retransmission.

Seems to me, whether HD resolution takes full advantage of its reported higher resolution is a matter of implementation (mainly encoding/decoding). Some local HD is implemented well, some isn't. When comparing an NTSC picture to OTA HD with fast motion (eg. sports) you might think NTSC was higher resolution than it really is. After all, what good is the extra resolution of HD if it is used to display digital artifacts from fast movement, like in NASCAR racing, and dark scenes. A full-transponder C Band/Ku band NTSC transmission when you see one for the first time can also give that awe-inspiring impression that you wrote about. Unfortunately, for me anyway, it is in a 4:3 format.

I'm not saying you are but, please don't compare NTSC (whether best or not) to the best possible HD picture. We don't get one. It also would be unfair to claim that HDTV has to be better because it is higher resolution (I am not saying you are doing that either since you were not specific enough for me to make that claim). There is much more to it than that (and you know it from looking at some LOCAL HDTV ;)).

BTW, I usually start with a very high quality HD C Band satellite transmission which is in part why the picture looks so acceptable after all the conversions when compared to some local HDTV channels (I could name them here but you know who they are). However, a high quality C Band NTSC satellite signal would give similar or maybe better results since the very minor digital artifacts that do exist in the digital version would not be there and some of those minor artifacts would have made it into the 480i version when it was converted to analog.

Please, don't sell NTSC short. Poor implementations have really made it look much worse than it really is. If the mighty buck wins out over quality TV, one day you may wish you had it back.

dmatch

Dmatch: Are there any C or KU band analog stations left? I've been watching digital, but still have my old Uniden analog sat receiver sitting in a box. It had a stunning PQ back when everyone used analog.

If you mean 24/7 programmed stations, there are only a handful of ITC religious stations (like Shepherd's Chapel - an Arkansas station BTW, Dr. Gene Scott), CSPAN1, CSPAN2, ARTS channel, and a couple of shopping channels. There are very few Videocipher channels (subscription) left, including (I think) TBS, TNT, CNN and a couple more and I think the Weather Channel is still there (not sure). Unless you have a particular fondness for one or more of these there's not much reason to pull the old receiver out of the closet.

Since I still use my 4DTV to tune DVB/MPEG2 digital satellite channels, I occasional look around for analog (C and Ku) backhauls just for the heck of it. I run across one now and then but there are so few anymore it's hardly worth the hunting and wearing out of the BUD positioner. Just looking for all the digital backhauls is causing enough wear and tear. By far most things are digital now and only special gotta-use-it circumstances cause uplinkers to use analog anymore. Some college sports backhauls still use analog, probably because they haven't got around to going digital yet. It appears they all will sooner or later. It's a cost thing.

The FCC was also considering phasing out analog satellite transmissions and have been taking comments on it. I don't know where that stands right now.

dmatch

I'm comparing it to C-band Analog, the best analog signal that used to be available. Its also a first generation signal, not a 2nd or 3rd. I used C-band from 1988 until 6 months ago. I had it hooked to both the HDTV's I've owned. Cband analog is very good clarity, but it honestly pales in comparison to true High Definition programming and I thought that was what we were comparing it to, not a dowgraded HD or SD feed. As far as compared to standard Def Digital, I'd take cband analog over it. The analog signal just seems a little cleaner and clear to me. I have an insignia OTA coverter box hooked up on one of my inputs. I checked back and forth between it on Input 3 and the TV's ATSC tuner during the Cowboys vs Texans game a few minutes ago. I will admit the coverter box does put up a nice looking picture, but its still not in the same ballpark as the true HD on 11.1.

I should mention that the last year I ran my C-band system, I ran a 4DTV with Motorola HDD box. I watched HBOHD on C-band, but I honestly seen no difference in it, the OTA signals in HD or the HD I was getting from Dishnetwork at the time on channels like HBOHD, ESPNHD and TNTHD. I'm just putting this stuff up as reference to what experience I have with these systems and their PQ's. I've been running an HDTV since 2002, so I've seen a lot of different feeds first hand on HD capable sets.

I was not trying to insult anyone with my statements, but I honestly dont see how someone cant tell a huge difference in a true HD broadcast vs an analog or converted broadcast.

I guess in the end, if someone is happy with what they have, its not my place to tell them they need or should want better.

HD Tivos and some TV's offer cablecard slots. This does away with the "cable box" and still allows premium programming to be received.

Ahhhh, but isn't a cablecard essentially a "cable box"? :) To me, if it is decoding a signal that the cable company has encoded, and is issued by the cableco, then it is a "cable box".

And they charge out the ass for those things from what I hear.

I watched HBOHD on C-band, but I honestly seen no difference in it, the OTA signals in HD or the HD I was getting from Dishnetwork at the time on channels like HBOHD, ESPNHD and TNTHD.

It's really not good at all to use Dish as a comparison to ANY HD whether it be OTA or cable bound. Dish does such a number on HD signals with their compression. Their HD doesn't look anything like a good HD signal because they have squished that stream so tight to cram as much as they can onto a couple of sats.

That's just what I have heard about it though. I haven't punished myself enough to watch it.

If you mean 24/7 programmed stations, there are only a handful of ITC religious stations (like Shepherd's Chapel - an Arkansas station BTW, Dr. Gene Scott), CSPAN1, CSPAN2, ARTS channel, and a couple of shopping channels. There are very few Videocipher channels (subscription) left, including (I think) TBS, TNT, CNN and a couple more and I think the Weather Channel is still there (not sure). Unless you have a particular fondness for one or more of these there's not much reason to pull the old receiver out of the closet.

Since I still use my 4DTV to tune DVB/MPEG2 digital satellite channels, I occasional look around for analog (C and Ku) backhauls just for the heck of it. I run across one now and then but there are so few anymore it's hardly worth the hunting and wearing out of the BUD positioner. Just looking for all the digital backhauls is causing enough wear and tear. By far most things are digital now and only special gotta-use-it circumstances cause uplinkers to use analog anymore. Some college sports backhauls still use analog, probably because they haven't got around to going digital yet. It appears they all will sooner or later. It's a cost thing.

The FCC was also considering phasing out analog satellite transmissions and have been taking comments on it. I don't know where that stands right now.

dmatch

I used to watch that crazy old Gene Scott. I got a good laugh out of watching him threaten his congergations for money. One night he was reading and asking for tithes. The phone was not ringing fast enough for him (guess he was seeing that hawaian vacation slipping away) so he slams down his bible, gets up real close to the camera and says...."By God you members of this church better get your asses on the phone right now or you wont have a seat next sunday morning, we'll give it to someone who wants to give their money to this church! Now Damnit...get on the phone! All this while puffing that cigar...then he says " go to some dancing and singing, there wont be no more Damn reading from the bible until these phones start ringing, now get off the damn couch and on the phone with that money before theres Hell to pay". Then it goes off to some sexy looking young women dancing in dresses with old man scott dressed up in his suit and doing some dirty dancing with the girls and some music that really didnt seem like church music......I was laughing and saying..really, do people really put up with that jerk....:confused:

It's really not good at all to use Dish as a comparison to ANY HD whether it be OTA or cable bound. Dish does such a number on HD signals with their compression. Their HD doesn't look anything like a good HD signal because they have squished that stream so tight to cram as much as they can onto a couple of sats.

That's just what I have heard about it though. I haven't punished myself enough to watch it.

Some of that is true on squishing the signal and some is not. All HD channels are not of equal quality, that part falls back on the origianl provider. YOu'll see the same flawing of the channels resolutions and formats on both Cband and Dish on TNTHD and channels like it which are only halfway committed to HD programming.

The way it used to work, and I guess it still does, is C-band fed everything.

Sorry for getting off topic guys, I've wandered a stray here, forgive me:) I've been watching Dallas and Houston on 11.1. Unfortunately I just got to see Felix Jones Fumble in High Definition:rolleyes:

Well, if you want premium programming, you are going to use a decoder card. Your DirecTv receiver uses them, Dishnetwork uses them, and cable co's use them. All digital cable would still come in without a box, if you had a QAM tuner...so I'm not seeing where you are going... I'd like to see Comcast go all digital, just to give Directv some competition on HD. If there was competition, Directv would have our locals fired up by now. Last I checked, a cablecard was cheaper than a Directv access card...might have changed by now tho.

I can tell ya, if Comcast was all digital, and offered a full slate of MLB Extra Innings, I'd dump Directv tomorrow, just for the convienience of the locals, PBS-HD, and no "per receiver" fee or 2 yr contract every time you change something on your equipment lineup.

CBS 1080i football looks better this year. Not seeing the constant macroblocking and noisy grass I saw last year.

@Arkyman:

The problem is...What is "true" HD? Has the FCC set any standard on compression of digital signals? I am not being sarcastic, I really don't know but I don't think they have. If they have then surely (on Topic here) KKYK-DT is in violation.

If or when taken to extremes, overcompression/low bitrates can essentially make resolution meaningless (You know that). The quality of OTA HD is going to and is being determined locally (more on topic here, LOCAL HDTV) with varying results to which I and my neighbors made the comparison using smaller HDTVs than what you probably have. I have a 32" and the neighbors have 27" HDTVs. It looks better on theirs than it does on mine at reasonable viewing distances.

I whole heartedly agree with you about good/true HD (high bit rate 18 Mbps at 720p or higher) having better quality than NTSC. Heck, even rates as low as 10-12 Mbps can look better than NTSC. And in all fairness the neighbors consider anything thats digital as being HDTV, especially if it is 16:9 format (as many people do). So when they think it is HDTV, it is more a comment that it is a good picture as compared to ALL the stuff that they are seeing on digital and analog TV.

If the pattern followed by Dishnet and DirectTV with respect to over-compression of their SD digital signals in search of the holy buck is any indication of future patterns with HD, I think the next few years may bring the best HD we will ever see. I am thinking in terms of what I consider real world probabilities. YMMV.

The Achilles heel of OTA HDTV, like that of digital SD satellite, might prove to be the ability to compress those otherwise beautiful pictures into digital artifact oblivion in order for TV stations to sell or use the extra bandwidth (which I believe the FCC has allowed them to do). Unfortunately, most people are not going to pay that much attention to loss of quality. I would would pay attention and it certainly seems that you would but as you have pointed out my neighbor's (and virtually anyone I discuss it with) "don't know what they are talking about.";)

What do you think about the future of DTV here in Arkansas, especially Little Rock? That's an on topic question if ever there was one.

dmatch

And heh, Arkyman, we really are not too far afield of the topic. THis does concern LOCAL HDTV. I don't see a need for an apology but if someone else does I too apologize. I think that is what is called a left-handed apology.:rolleyes:

I saw that Gene Scott encounter. It was a hoot.

dmatch

@Arkyman:

The problem is...What is "true" HD? Has the FCC set any standard on compression of digital signals? I am not being sarcastic, I really don't know but I don't think they have. If then have then surely (on Topic here) KKYK-DT is in violation.

KKYK-DT can't be in violation of such a rule (not that one exists) since it's not in HD to begin with. 480i is not HD.

- Trip

KKYK-DT can't be in violation of such a rule (not that one exists) since it's not in HD to begin with. 480i is not HD.

- Trip
I'm pretty sure you know that I know that 480 is not HD. I sort of switched focus in that statement to "digital signals." If they had a regulation on digital signal compression then that could possibly help ensure the quality of HD digital signals.

EDIT: BTW, do you know if low power digital TV stations are covered by the same FCC regulations, regarding PSIP and accurate time, as full power digital TV stations?

dmatch

@Arkyman:




I whole heartedly agree with you about good/true HD (high bit rate 18 Mbps at 720p or higher) having better quality than NTSC. Heck, even rates as low as 10-12 Mbps can look better than NTSC.

dmatch

Ok, this is where we got mixed up with each other, thats what I was actually talking about comparing, the good HD or true HD vs the best NTSC signals. So it looks like we are really on the same page here, I was on one side and you were on the other but now we've met in the middle and agree, which we actually did all along:) Sometimes its hard to type what your trying to say:D

I'm pretty sure you know that I know that 480 is not HD. I sort of switched focus in that statement to "digital signals." If they had a regulation on digital signal compression then that could possibly help ensure the quality of HD digital signals.

EDIT: BTW, do you know if low power digital TV stations are covered by the same FCC regulations, regarding PSIP and accurate time, as full power digital TV stations?

dmatch

dmatch, whats really aggravating, and I know you already know this, if 42.1 wanted to be, they could be a great alternative and dependable channel for Arkansans in this part of the state. But so far it appears they arent too worried about it:confused:

I'm pretty sure you know that I know that 480 is not HD. I sort of switched focus in that statement to "digital signals." If they had a regulation on digital signal compression then that could possibly help ensure the quality of HD digital signals.

EDIT: BTW, do you know if low power digital TV stations are covered by the same FCC regulations, regarding PSIP and accurate time, as full power digital TV stations?

dmatch

I figured you did, you changed the focus on me and I got confused. =) No offense intended.

All the FCC cares about is that there's a single, non-encrypted, SD feed. I don't think there are any kind of minimum standards on quality.

As for your other question, it's not something I've found an answer for. I've looked around and can't find anything one way or another. I'll keep my eyes open and let you know if I see anything.

- Trip

Well, if you want premium programming, you are going to use a decoder card. Your DirecTv receiver uses them, Dishnetwork uses them, and cable co's use them. All digital cable would still come in without a box, if you had a QAM tuner...so I'm not seeing where you are going... I'd like to see Comcast go all digital, just to give Directv some competition on HD. If there was competition, Directv would have our locals fired up by now. Last I checked, a cablecard was cheaper than a Directv access card...might have changed by now tho.

I can tell ya, if Comcast was all digital, and offered a full slate of MLB Extra Innings, I'd dump Directv tomorrow, just for the convienience of the locals, PBS-HD, and no "per receiver" fee or 2 yr contract every time you change something on your equipment lineup.
I'm not sure who you were directing it to, but I will respond about my talking about cablecards still being a "box".

One thing you have to remember is that the access card is a one time $20 fee. Comcast charges every month for its cablecard fee and, if I am not mistaken, its higher than even the lease fee of $4.99 on the DirecTV boxes. I think its a minimum of $5.99 per month for each card. They charge the hell out of you for a cablecard from everything I have ever read about people who use them.

THAT'S where I was going with it is that, when you were talking about using a cablecard instead of using a converter box, technically the cablecard IS a converter box because it is doing the same thing. I think I was trying to say how most of the content on analog didn't need a box, but everything on digital does. I personally don't like using boxes, but understand why they are necessary and there and find ways to work around noticing that I am using one. I would just as soon have everything on its own channel on the TV so I didn't have two or three remotes to program into one universal to get the job done. :)


I didn't read all the rest of the posts after that. I will get to them tomorrow. :)

Ok, so its $1.00 more per month per receiver than Directv, but you would own the HDTivo, so you would save the $5.99 monthly DVR fee :), and would not have to pay $5.00 per month for locals...So you would save $9.99 per month already :) AND be able to watch TV during thunderstorms... But as long as they only have a very limited HD lineup, forget it. I would never watch an analog cable channel. I can't even watch digital non-HD channels much anymore.

Ok, so its $1.00 more per month per receiver than Directv, but you would own the HDTivo, so you would save the $5.99 monthly DVR fee :), and would not have to pay $5.00 per month for locals...So you would save $9.99 per month already :) AND be able to watch TV during thunderstorms... But as long as they only have a very limited HD lineup, forget it. I would never watch an analog cable channel. I can't even watch digital non-HD channels much anymore.
Actually, you are forgetting again that TiVo has a monthly subscription fee of $12.95, so, not only are you paying $1.00 more per month for the cable card, you are paying $7.00 more per month DVR fee. Oh, and if you want to use BOTH tuners in the HDTiVo, then you have to multiply that cablecard fee x2. With DirecTV's DVR you don't have to do that. One fee covers both tuners. Trust me, the costs for cablecard access is beyond that of DirecTV.....at least in my mind. :)

I have lifetime Tivo membership, so no Tivo fees monthly. They already tried to get me to upgrade my series 1 to HD, but since it didn't work with my H20, I declined. If you don't have a lifetime Tivo sub, then it probably would cost more.

Most people don't have a lifetime membership. You can't even get one anymore, they took it away. They did bring it back for a little while a while back, but I am pretty sure it was a limited time thing. Or did they bring it back for good?

Ok, this is where we got mixed up with each other, thats what I was actually talking about comparing, the good HD or true HD vs the best NTSC signals. So it looks like we are really on the same page here, I was on one side and you were on the other but now we've met in the middle and agree, which we actually did all along:) Sometimes its hard to type what your trying to say:D
Yeah, I think there is far more agreement than first hit the keyboards.

Not that it's really any of my business, but if you care to answer, why did you stop using the BUD satellite? What sort of stuff did you use? I'm not intending to second guess or convince you to go back to using it, I am just curious.

dmatch

I figured you did, you changed the focus on me and I got confused. =) No offense intended.

All the FCC cares about is that there's a single, non-encrypted, SD feed. I don't think there are any kind of minimum standards on quality.

As for your other question, it's not something I've found an answer for. I've looked around and can't find anything one way or another. I'll keep my eyes open and let you know if I see anything.

- Trip
Certainly, no offense was taken. I should have focused the statement better.

I have sent some e-mails out regarding the FCC/PSIP/Time regulations on low power digital TV stations and so far when I get any response at all it's just the standard copy and pasted digital transition stuff. In the past I have received personalized pertinent information (even from fccinfo@fcc.gov) but I guess they (FCC) are kinda busy answering the same old questions over and over and don't have the time to respond to the real question.

As far as actually finding/reading/searching the regulations on the the FCC website, that turns out to be like looking for a needle in a haystack for me.

Thanks,

dmatch

I use mine...I can't imagine having to watch a nascar race with a commercial break every 5 minutes...I doubt I'd even watch it that way.

Todays LLWS is another example...KATV has so much macroblocking, its unwatchable...ABC's backhaul looks fantastic.

dmatch, whats really aggravating, and I know you already know this, if 42.1 wanted to be, they could be a great alternative and dependable channel for Arkansans in this part of the state. But so far it appears they arent too worried about it:confused:
I'll show my pessimism again.:(

I really think as long as they can get on cable via the must-carry rule they don't really care much about OTA viewers and the only reason they continue OTA *IS* the must-carry rule.

dmatch

I use mine...I can't imagine having to watch a nascar race with a commercial break every 5 minutes...I doubt I'd even watch it that way.

Todays LLWS is another example...KATV has so much macroblocking, its unwatchable...ABC's backhaul looks fantastic.
Yeah, I quit watching NASCAR for a while until I got up to speed on BUD satellite HD via computer because I knew how much more entertaining a backhaul was without all the interruptions.

Holy crap, is the LLWS on already? I gotta go find it.

dmatch

Was a good game (LLWS). At least KATV-DT didn't show infomercials instead.

BTW, does the attached jpeg (KATVDT_LLWS.jpg), taken during the LLWS game on KATV-DT, show what you guys are calling macro-blocking? For instance, in the area of the the player's chest and in the box score at the top (especially "Japan"). I saw what were much better depictions of what I think you all are referring to but the game was over before I could get a better example. There were plenty of chances though.

davenlr: I wouldn't call it unwatchable, but it was definitely very distracting, even on my small 32" HDTV. On a very large screen it might indeed have been unwatchable at times.

Also, the general graininess of the picture when set in motion generates what I have seen called mosquito noise (especially in the area of the arm patch). What do you guys refer to that problem as?

The NTSC-can-look-as-good-as-some-HDTV dead horse flinched so I beat it again and attached an example jpeg of a portion of the analog version of the HD satellite feed. Also, attached is a jpeg of a portion of the HD satellite feed itself.

I tried to select scenes which had some moderate motion. These are NOT the best quality pictures available from any of these sources.

dmatch

Was a good game (LLWS). At least KATV-DT didn't show infomercials instead.

BTW, does the attached jpeg (KATVDT_LLWS.jpg), taken during the LLWS game on KATV-DT, show what you guys are calling macro-blocking?
dmatch

Yep, it sure does. On a 46" screen, its unwatchable to me, considering I can watch the example in your third attachment :)
I notice you have the analog to digital mosquito noise around high def lettering and outlines. I guess its an even trade off for the "Dot Crawl" the old analog system used to drive me nuts with :)

I cant blame KATV for the quality, they are doing the best they can to get the signal out there in HD, so Ill cut em slack until ch 22 is back on the air. For now though, Ill stick with my backhauls for live sports when I can. Sure hope the NFL has a few this year.

On another note, dont anyone waste money on the CHannel Master 4220 2 bay antenna. It has lower signal levels that my single bow tie (which for some reason, which works, is much larger than one of the single 4220 bays).

I notice you have the analog to digital mosquito noise around high def lettering and outlines. I guess its an even trade off for the "Dot Crawl" the old analog system used to drive me nuts with :)

.... snip ....

On another note, dont anyone waste money on the CHannel Master 4220 2 bay antenna. It has lower signal levels that my single bow tie (which for some reason, which works, is much larger than one of the single 4220 bays).
Which attachment are describing with mosquito noise, the KATVDT_LLWS.jpg?

When I chose not to try a 4228 it was because I have an inconsistent signal field and presumed that elements that were in a stronger portion of the signal field would just rebroadcast the extra out thru the elements in the weaker portions of the field. I am by no means a master at this stuff and could be wrong. Maybe something similar is happening at your place with regard to an inconsistent signal field.

All that said, it is interesting that you got the results with the 4220 that I was afraid I would get with a 4228 (as compared to a UHF yagi).

dmatch

satellite analog convert

Do you see what you would call mosquito noise in the KATVDT_LLWS too? Bare with me please, I'm just trying to get on the same page as you guys with your terminology.

dmatch

satellite analog convert

Do you see what you would call mosquito noise in the KATVDT_LLWS too? Bare with me please, I'm just trying to get on the same page as you guys with your terminology.

dmatch

Yes, around the patch and the Score logo.

Thanks, enjoy the game.:)

dmatch

Thanks, enjoy the game.:)

dmatch

I am. I also noticed on satellite backhaul, the graphics wipes do NOT have any pixellation. The baud rate is 29270 on the feed I'm watching, 720p... Don't know how to convert the baud rate (SR) into bits/sec, but its am amazing picture. I'm watching the feed on G16 V 3940.

Wow, the announcers on the FOX Braves v Cardinals game are real tools. They suck bad. They also appear to LOVE the Braves with the way they talk about them so much.

Who are the Braves?

Rhetorical?

EDIT:
Nah, you probably don't know who they are if you concentrate on the LLWS. :) And college crap. They are Atlanta.

I'm from Milwaukee. They have been dead to me since they deserted Milwaukee to go to Atlanta.

I am. I also noticed on satellite backhaul, the graphics wipes do NOT have any pixellation. The baud rate is 29270 on the feed I'm watching, 720p... Don't know how to convert the baud rate (SR) into bits/sec, but its am amazing picture. I'm watching the feed on G16 V 3940.Same feed on here, except when comparing to KATVDT. For this QPSK feed (29.270 Msps - Mega samples per second) there are 2*29.270 Mbps. QPSK has 2 bits/sample (baud rate conversion). 58.54 Mbps (not all Video of course). That's a bunch a bits.

dmatch

58.54 Mbps (not all Video of course). That's a bunch a bits.

dmatch

Thanks for the conversion. So 3/4 is used for signal, 1/4 for FEC about? So we are talking perhaps 54-10=44, or which 20% would be dolby digital audio... So maybe 30Mbps video? What is ATSC's max?

Thanks for the conversion. So 3/4 is used for signal, 1/4 for FEC about? So we are talking perhaps 54-10=44, or which 20% would be dolby digital audio... So maybe 30Mbps video? What is ATSC's max?
That looks roughly correct to me. I have seen the exact calculations for this sort of stuff and they are more complicated. BTW, there are 3 MPEG audios and a Dolby-E stream (my system doesn't even see it).

I guess the max for ATSC Video is around 18 Mbps. That is what KARKDT runs at. KLRTDT runs at 11 Mbps with a bunch of null packets (what's that about?). KTHVDT has that second channel so it runs about 14 Mbps (+4 for the second channel = 18).

Edit:Another great game!

BTW, those 7 Mbps null packets that KLRTDT is putting out. Reckon that means there's a subchannel coming?

dmatch

Ok, thanks. Well, Louisiana's coach should have left his starter in for the first batter of the 5th, and they would have won. That pitcher they put in Sucked!!! Could hit, couldn't pitch, and couldn't play first base. He is gonna feel like **** tonight at the dinner table.

Dave, you do the CE for this week last night? I was just wondering if it was worth doing. I don't like the fact it says you will lose recordings if you go back to NR.

I wish there was a way I could put just this group only into an RSS reader or something else that would let me see immediately when something is posted without having to refresh or depend on emails. I see the RSS subscription thing at the top, but its not just for this group only.

Yea, I downloaded it. Most stable CE (that and the one last week) in a long time... I Like the padding, and the 1080p VOD. Other than that, its not much different than the last NR.

Why would you go back to the NR?

Dunno, in case there was a problem. I haven't had to do that yet I don't think, but just think of it as a possiblity. From what I read the widgets work now? And the fortune cookie is there? (haven't seen that in a LONG time)

So, you think its a safe one to download?

Yea, works fine on mine. I don't have widgets, but have fortune cookie. Whooppee...

BTW, is the weather channel still on analog cable? Was thinking of hooking it up to my aquos just to see what its qam tuner would do.

yeah, comcast 16 I believe. Will look like crap though. :)

Glad I stayed up late... Logged:
15-KTAL Texarkana
17-KSLA Shreveport
21-KPXJ Linden,La
34-KMSS Shreveport
36-KARD Monroe
52-WJTV Jackson

Got signals but couldn't lock channels 49,56,22,35

Sure wish low power analog would go bye bye.

Glad I stayed up late... Logged:
15-KTAL Texarkana
17-KSLA Shreveport
21-KPXJ Linden,La
34-KMSS Shreveport
36-KARD Monroe
52-WJTV Jackson

Got signals but couldn't lock channels 49,56,22,35

Sure wish low power analog would go bye bye.

22 is KETK Jacksonville TX (NBC)
35 is KALB Alexandria LA (NBC & CBS in "hd" 1080i yikes)
not sure about 49, and 56. KKYK 49 in Camden is still analog. I guess the LR LPTV blocked out 28 which is KTBS Shreveport (and WREG Memphis, and KSFX Springfield MO). Those are pests here except for WJTV, which I don't get often, KSLA is the weakest of the Shreveport DTV's except for KSHV-DT 44.

22 is KETK Jacksonville TX (NBC)
35 is KALB Alexandria LA (NBC & CBS in "hd" 1080i yikes)
not sure about 49, and 56.

56 could be KLFY-DT Lafayette.

As for 49, that could be WNTZ-DT in Natchez.

- Trip

Appreciate the help. For about 30 mins, KSLA and KMSS were pegging 100%. One thing I love about digital, you can ID the station with a scan, and don't have to wait for a station ID at the top of the hour like analog.

Does any manufacturer have a Atsc receiver with disq antenna switching? That would be awesome. Could have 4 separate antennas, and for each station you could designate which of the four to use. Or for LR, two antennas, one for Redfield and one for Shinall.

Don't believe so. There are only 2 "real" ATSC receiver (not Converter boxes), manufacturers, that I know of right now. Samsung has the DTB H260F and PrimeDTV has the PHD 205. They don't have diseq switch control.

Would be neat...IF diseq switches were generally good. Too bad most reasonably priced ones perform poorly and degrade the signal.

I even quit trying to use one on my satellite system.

dmatch

Hey, Dave, what Hauppauge HD device you got? Is it the 1212? I just saw it on Amazon for like $210 or so and was wondering if thats what you have.

Oh, and does anyone have a GPS unit laying around they wanna sell? I kinda broke my wifes yesterday when I fell. :)

Appreciate the help. For about 30 mins, KSLA and KMSS were pegging 100%. One thing I love about digital, you can ID the station with a scan, and don't have to wait for a station ID at the top of the hour like analog.

Most of the DTV's will have the callsign. There are a few that don't but thats the exception.

Speaking of DX, just minutes ago (9:26pm) decoded a new one for the log: late comer to full power DTV, KSPR-DT 19 ("33-1") Springfield MO. Another alternative to KATV for those in the northern parts of the LR DMA (Searcy, Stone counties). However, KSPR-DT will be harder to receive in areas east of Mountain Home (such as Fulton County) until KTEJ 19 goes dark after Feb 2009.

You got a Zenith STB? Just wondering cause that screen looked like the ones I see on mine.

Response to everyone, and:

Hey, Dave, what Hauppauge HD device you got? Is it the 1212? I just saw it on Amazon for like $210 or so and was wondering if thats what you have.


Yes, that's the one. Component HD input (also Svideo,Composite), USB2 to the computer.

Pansat 9200hd has terrestrial atsc also, but no disq commands for the antenna port. I'd trade 2 db insertion loss for locals...

Can't get a peep out of ch 19 right now, guess its going over my head to get to you.

WOW!! You guys wanna see a REALLY cool site??? www.dishpointer.com

Ahh, that 1212 is just too much for me right now. I will wait for it to come down.

Ahh, that 1212 is just too much for me right now. I will wait for it to come down.

I'd be more concerned with companies downrezzing the analog ports to make the 1212 useless, before I would expect to see it drop much in price...but you never know. Sure has saved me a bunch of money not having to buy a blu-ray and discs. Records a whole HD movie to a single 4.7 or DL DVD.

I'd be more concerned with companies downrezzing the analog ports to make the 1212 useless, before I would expect to see it drop much in price...but you never know.

Huh? Not quite following you.

I can't speak for davenlr, but I would worry about component/RGB outputs being "downrezzed", or completely taken away, on devices in order to plug the analog hole, leaving us with only DRM-able digital output (HDCP).

Its all about the buck and squeezing more blood from a turnip. Manufacturers have historically co-operated with content providers in their copy protection schemes. For instance, when Macrovision came out, if you didn't buy a new VCR your old one continued to work fine and "ignored" Macrovision. They (manufacturers) changed their VCRs so that Macrovision would screw up a recording of a Macrovision source. When copy protected DVDs came out they (manufacturers) changed TVs so that they wouldn't get screwed up by the copy protection. Many people bought DVD players that they thought were broke when it was really just that their TV was not new and the copy protection would screw up the picture (would lose sync and go black intermittently).

Locally, KTHVDT has the so-called broadcast flag set and I believe KATVDT did, before its downfall, have the broadcast flag set in their ATSC transmissions.

Being pessimistic, I see reason to believe that manufacturers and other corporations will co-operate with content providers in plugging the analog hole and in implementing their DRM desires.

dmatch

In case you were wondering, or cared...
====================================

World News with Charles Gibson, Nightline to begin broadcasting in 720p HD Aug. 25.

ABC News is using the platform of the 2008 political conventions to launch a campaign of its own: a significant expansion of its HDTV offerings.


On Aug. 25, World News with Charles Gibson and Nightline start broadcasting in 720-line progressive (720p) HD, first from the Democratic National Convention in Denver, then from the Republican National Convention in Minneapolis-St. Paul the following week.

And like the other networks, ABC News will also broadcast both conventions in HD for the first time.

After being on the road for two weeks, World News and Nightline will return to their New York studios Sept. 8 and start being produced in HD from there. Later that week, newsmagazines 20/20 and Primetime, as well as the weekend editions of World News, will also make their HD debuts.

Took them long enough to join the fun. Hell, it took CBS longer than I thought it should to get their stuff in HD. Hopefully their launch will go off smoother than CBS's did.

I can't speak for davenlr, but I would worry about component/RGB outputs being "downrezzed", or completely taken away, on devices in order to plug the analog hole, leaving us with only DRM-able digital output (HDCP).

Its all about the buck and squeezing more blood from a turnip. Manufacturers have historically co-operated with content providers in their copy protection schemes. For instance, when Macrovision came out, if you didn't buy a new VCR your old one continued to work fine and "ignored" Macrovision. They (manufacturers) changed their VCRs so that Macrovision would screw up a recording of a Macrovision source. When copy protected DVDs came out they (manufacturers) changed TVs so that they wouldn't get screwed up by the copy protection. Many people bought DVD players that they thought were broke when it was really just that their TV was not new and the copy protection would screw up the picture (would lose sync and go black intermittently).

Locally, KTHVDT has the so-called broadcast flag set and I believe KATVDT did, before its downfall, have the broadcast flag set in their ATSC transmissions.

Being pessimistic, I see reason to believe that manufacturers and other corporations will co-operate with content providers in plugging the analog hole and in implementing their DRM desires.

dmatch
Ahh, thats what he meant. Didn't even occur to me that this might happen. I don't think they will be gotten rid of completely. There is always going to be a company out there that will make what people want. I just can't believe this whole broadcast flag thing and the whole copy protection thing has gone as far as it has. I just hope that if we do get blocked on what we can record, that it bites them in the ass...and hard.

Ahh, thats what he meant. Didn't even occur to me that this might happen. I don't think they will be gotten rid of completely. There is always going to be a company out there that will make what people want. I just can't believe this whole broadcast flag thing and the whole copy protection thing has gone as far as it has. I just hope that if we do get blocked on what we can record, that it bites them in the ass...and hard.
I don't know if that is what he meant but that is what I thought.

And while they (manufacturers) *may* not get rid of the analog hole they could certainly use HDCP to deliver a poor SD version unless you *pay* for the HD.

There may very likely come a time, even with local broadcasts (KTHVDT,?KATVDT?), that you will not be allowed to make a copy of distributed content. The analog hole needs to go away for this to happen reliably. You have supreme court "fair use" rights to copy analog. I believe Digital Rights Management (DRM) is different. It is covered by the Digital Mellinium Copyrights Act (DMCA) of 1998 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA).

If you have Vista you have already started down the road to being DRMed. Here is just one article on that. Some may consider it biased and its views are not necessarily mine. However, I am pessimistic enough to believe it.

http://www.forbes.com/security/2007/02/10/microsoft-vista-drm-tech-security-cz_bs_0212vista.html

dmatch

Yep, that's what I meant. Turning the component ports into 480i max. Directv DVR's can already completely disable them, but haven't so far.

Now, why in the hell would they wanna do that? I mean, they spent good money on the parts to put it on the board, why would they wanna go and disable it?? Thats just stupid. I still say that if it goes over the air and you can receive it, its open for copying. Just like radio has been all these years. You can't really expect people to not be able to control the media that they capture....especially if they pay for it in the first place!

The main reason would be to get distribution rights from hollywood for movies not yet in the home distribution loop. Unless they can disable the analog hd ports (to keep me from recording it to my computer) and force us all to watch the DRM on HDMI ports, to prevent a pure digital copy, then they won't allow Directv to show it.

Directv was testing it last month. I can attest, it did NOT display on my TV with HDMI to DVI cable. It did display on my HDMI TV, after displaying a "DRM handshake in progress" message. As of now, they haven't disabled or downrezzed the analog port. Its rumored they can, but I haven't seen it done yet.

Well, it will be a really really long time before they can. If they do it too early, they will have thousands of customers calling up and bitching them out about not being able to watch what they pay for. They can't just expect everyone to go out and buy an HDMI capable TV, can they?

I can even see people using RF modulators to kick the HD signal down to a coax connection for their TV's for a long time to come just because they don't know any better. And there were a bunch of TV's made that didn't have any HDMI connections on it, just the component connections. They can't expect all the different types of TV's just to be pitched because the jerks in Hollywood want it done their way.

Its funny, I got that security token error again just now. I didn't even log out and then back in. All I did was open up a new tab and come back to the site and then I was able to post. I just think their software is just hosed when people leave the page open too long.

Here is an interesting thread on why the Directv Vista Media Center card isn't out yet...Microsoft hasn't secured Vista good enough yet...lots of discussion on Hauppauge PVR also.

Mentioned is OTA is prevented by law from using the "broadcast flag" to prevent recording, and only VOD, PPV, and premium movies channels are allowed to use the "copy once" flag... And if you use a DVR, that's your one copy.
www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=137122

I can believe its cause of lack of Vista security. Its always something to do with either MS or Hollywood.

Oh, thats something I forgot to tell you guys about. According to a tech at Hauppauge, sometime probably in September, Microsoft will release an update for Vista Media Center to allow it to do clearQAM natively. So, that means we won't have to use GB-PVR or the likes anymore.

And, speaking of the likes, I finally figured out what the deal was with WinTV mapping QAM channels. It turns out as it is scanning, each freq that it comes across that has active content, it just labels it as qam-1. This overwrites the previous find. Like, on mine, when it got to 117 (which I guess is the hidden music channels), it would find a ton of channels. Even though it kept the previous channels it found in the list, it would still map them to the most recent qam-1 or whatever it found. I found that if I did it one freq at a time, let it find the content, then went to the channels tab and renamed it, I could get it to do the clearQAM decoding it was supposed to do all this time.

Anyway, I thought the VMC update was a good thing that they were doing. I hope its soon.

SEC signs a deal with ESPN (http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/stories/2008/08/25/daily11.html) for games (basketball and football) that are not carried by CBS. Takes effect in fall 2009.

Mentioned is OTA is prevented by law from using the "broadcast flag" to prevent recording, and only VOD, PPV, and premium movies channels are allowed to use the "copy once" flag... And if you use a DVR, that's your one copy.
www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=137122
The US Federal Courts told the FCC that they could not *require* manufacturers to build devices that use the broadcast flag. I don't know where all that other stuff came from in the post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_flag

According to TSReader, KTHVDT IS running a broadcast flag ("Digital Broadcast Television Redistribution Control") right now. Before KATVDT fell down they were too. Also, an engineer from a Fox affiliate informed me that his station was told to run it also and they were.

Right now, manufacturers can't be *required* by the FCC to build devices that recognize it. I know of no regulation that would stop them from doing so voluntarily if they thought they could make a buck.

There are probably a lot of schemes in the works that we probably wouldn't believe if we knew about them.

For instance, did you know that Philips has designed and patented a chip that when designed into a TV will not let you change the channel or mute the volume when a commercial is on? Well, they have and they said they had no intention of using it yet but had designed it in case they ever had a need for it.

Don't underestimate the lengths that corporate America will go to in order to squeeze a little more blood out of a turnip (USA economy). They also don't care if you are upset when you have to buy new devices...as long as you buy them. The rate at which electronic devices fail pretty much means that you will come to the DRM dance sooner than you may like.

dmatch

The main reason would be to get distribution rights from hollywood for movies not yet in the home distribution loop. Unless they can disable the analog hd ports (to keep me from recording it to my computer) and force us all to watch the DRM on HDMI ports, to prevent a pure digital copy, then they won't allow Directv to show it.

Directv was testing it last month. I can attest, it did NOT display on my TV with HDMI to DVI cable. It did display on my HDMI TV, after displaying a "DRM handshake in progress" message. As of now, they haven't disabled or downrezzed the analog port. Its rumored they can, but I haven't seen it done yet.Dishnet has also tested their DRM system. The strange thing about some of this type technology is, unless you buy a newer model of something, a lot of times older technology continues to work without a hitch. Like VCRs. With that in mind I'm keeping my XP system as long as I can.

dmatch

Anyone know what has happened to KARK-DT 4.1 and KTHV-DT 11.1 & .2? They are currently off the air, has been for about the past 30 minutes or so. Was there some type of shut down scheduled for tonight?:confused:

KARK is on, THV still down...probably a power failure. I know it takes em a little while to fire up the generators. Not to uncommon up on the Mt.

Dishnet has also tested their DRM system. The strange thing about some of this type technology is, unless you buy a newer model of something, a lot of times older technology continues to work without a hitch. Like VCRs. With that in mind I'm keeping my XP system as long as I can.

dmatch


Vista will never touch my current computer :D .

Digital Rights Management (DRM) is one of the dark sides of the digital revolution. I remember reading a quote from Jack Valenti made during the Betamax suit and case that won us Fair Use to Congress in 1982....

"I say to you that the VCR is to the American film producer and the American public as the Boston strangler is to the woman home alone."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Valenti#Valenti_on_new_technologies

Well, that didn't exactly happen. The movie industry exploded with profits from all those VHS rentals and purchases.

I'm sure the Hollywood producers and their friends in Congress are using digital technology as their excuse to roll back fair use. Don't get me wrong, I embrace HDTV, and the current DTV system but we must remain ever watchful for broadcasters that will try to restrict our ability to time shift without going to "approved sources". I'm holding on to my 2 analog capable DVD recorders and working VCR's as long as possible even it it means sacrificing PQ.

KTHV-DT and KARK went off the air over night to prep and paint the top of the big tower. It wasn't a power failure.

I'm holding on to my 2 analog capable DVD recorders and working VCR's as long as possible even it it means sacrificing PQ.
Same here. We just gotta hope they last a good long time, which isn't as common for an electronic device anymore.

dmatch

Just installed my new Philips DVDR3576H (Hard Disk DVD Recorder). It has HDMI output with selectable Rez 480p, 720p, 1080i & 1080p via HDMI. I replaced the Philips HDRW720P which I've had for 4-5 years, it was component output with a max of 480p, very good picture playback and recording, but not as good as the new 3576. The HDRW720p served me well even tough its a booger to learn how to operate. The timer stopped working and you cant set it to record, you can still make manual recordings but you cant set it and leave. It was the perfect excuse to convince my wife we needed a new one. I told her how she could not record "Days of Our Lives" anymore so she went for the new one:D. The DVDR3576H has an ATSC tuner but its only standard, wont do HD. I put my Directv via S-vid to the recorder then run it to the TV, looks great, this is only for recording and playback, I actually watch my directv on another HDMI input straight from the direct receiver to the Sony TV. Still, the Philips has a super nice picture when fed good sources. I also took my Toshiba HD-DVD A20 out of the loop. Playing DVD's looks just as good on the new philips recorder. Besides, HD-DVD is now dead, I only watch standard DVD's on it and both the toshiba and philips upscale to 1080p. Killed two birds with one stone. I really dont understand the ATSC tuner being only standard. I know the recorder cant play back HD at its max rez, but still, HD broadcast fed to it look "WAY" better than standard feeds, so why they didnt allow it to do HD and just down rez it for playback I do not know. Anyway, all in all I am happy with it so far. Its much easier to navigate and operate than my previous philipsHDRW720p.:) I might also add that both of these recorders have 6 hour time buffers for pausing or jumping forward and backwards during broadcast. I set my jump to 30 seconds which is great for football games, 30 seconds is about perfect from snap to snap. There is also another button that I set for 10 minute jumps. The new 3576 has a 160GB HDD. My older 720p/17 had a 120GB HDD. Some of the 720's only had an 80GB HDD

I replaced the Philips HDRW720P which I've had for 4-5 years, it was component output with a max of 480p, very good picture playback and recording, but not as good as the new 3576. The HDRW720p served me well even tough its a booger to learn how to operate. The timer stopped working and you cant set it to record, you can still make manual recordings but you cant set it and leave.

Cool, does the 720P have component input? Or just S-Video and composite? And if you can still do manual recordings with it, do you think you might wanna part with it? I have always wanted one of those for doing stuff like VHS backups (which I have a lot that I need to do that with). I think I could also put it to good use dumping stuff off the DVR onto it or other stuff. So, if you think you might wanna get rid of it, talk to me about it and we will see what we can come up with. :) I keep looking for people replacing them like this cause I just do NOT wanna pay full price for one. They just are too high, plus I am not sure how much use I would get to put it to, so a used one would probably be perfect.

I also took my Toshiba HD-DVD A20 out of the loop. Playing DVD's looks just as good on the new philips recorder. Besides, HD-DVD is now dead, I only watch standard DVD's on it and both the toshiba and philips upscale to 1080p. Killed two birds with one stone.

Now, you know, you don't HAVE to remove that A20. Even though the format is dead, there are still LOTS AND LOTS of movies out there on it that you could get for it. Hell, just look on ebay and I am sure you will find loads. I think even Amazon still sells em.

Cool, does the 720P have component input? Or just S-Video and composite? And if you can still do manual recordings with it, do you think you might wanna part with it? I have always wanted one of those for doing stuff like VHS backups (which I have a lot that I need to do that with). I think I could also put it to good use dumping stuff off the DVR onto it or other stuff. So, if you think you might wanna get rid of it, talk to me about it and we will see what we can come up with. :) I keep looking for people replacing them like this cause I just do NOT wanna pay full price for one. They just are too high, plus I am not sure how much use I would get to put it to, so a used one would probably be perfect.



Now, you know, you don't HAVE to remove that A20. Even though the format is dead, there are still LOTS AND LOTS of movies out there on it that you could get for it. Hell, just look on ebay and I am sure you will find loads. I think even Amazon still sells em.



Well, right now I have not made up my mind as to exactly what to do with it. I possibly may put it in another room, but if I decide to sell, you'll be first on the list. The 720p is a strange little bird. It has component input and out put. The output does 480p which is very good PQ, I was always happy with it. But to input a device such as a dish, you have to use EXT2 which is S-vid or Composite input. The player then ups the vid to 480p quality and outputs it via components to your TV. What is strange is the Component IN which is 480i compatibale only. Very strange. If you input directv like I do, you have to use the S-vid and let the player scale up the PQ which it does a great job with. IF you hook Directv to the player via Component, it will show all the SD channels on the EXT1 input, but everytime you tune to a progressive source/channel, the screen flashes black with horizontal pink bars stacked vertically on the screen. So its basically dead for anything but 480i or standard feeds. EXT2 S-vid allows everything to be recorded, even HD, although playback of HD will be down rez'ed to 480p, it still look great at that PQ.

As for the HD-DVD, I'll probably use it in another room also. I have a 37" Vizio WS in my bedroom on the wall. May put both units in there.

Interesting. Still doesn't sound too bad. My biggest thing would be to find a way to burn all these VHS tapes I have. I would only use it with DirecTV for my sons shows. :)

Side note here for you guys. We have a very large entertainment center for our 60" TV. it has two towers on the sides and a top piece that spans tower to tower. In that top piece are lights, one for each tower and one right in the middle of the spanning top. Last night I was setting up the new DVD recorder and had everything pulled out and the lights in the center turned on. The light fixtrues are removeable from the top and attached to a lenghty piece of elect wire. Apparently a while back I had taken one of the fixtures loose from the top of the left tower and didnt put it back in the hole, I left it sitting directly on top of the Top piece board. Last night we began smelling something burning, I had blown dust from the breathing holes on the back of my Sony SXRD and at first thought it was the dust being burned by the lamp in the TV. But then it got stronger and stronger. I began to investigate. I got a chair and looke on top and found the light fixture and light sitting right on the board. I lifted it up to put it back in the hole on the left tower and smoke went rolling. It had already burned a Silver Dollar sized hole, had it charcoal black and I could see in the burned cracks embers burning down inside the top piece. I put water on it but just as any smoldering fire it did not go all the way out. I began feeling of the board with my hand and about a 1 foot radius out from the hole was smoking hot. It was burning inside the entertainment centers top piece. I took the top board down, watered it good and sat it outside for the night just in case. I still have not brought it back in yet. Its now completely out. What a disaster and tragedy this could have been for my family had we not found it and gone on to bed. So if any of you have removable light fixtures in your entertaiment center, please be sure not to leave them sitting directly on wood as I did. I could have burned our house down last night:eek:

Scary and funny at the same time. Sorry to hear about that. You gotsta be careful with them thar light bulbs. They can burn the crap outta stuff. :)

Completely off topic here. Does anyone know how to replace a broken lcd in a gps or even where to get a new display?

Interesting. Still doesn't sound too bad. My biggest thing would be to find a way to burn all these VHS tapes I have. I would only use it with DirecTV for my sons shows. :)

It would be easy to hook up a VCR. Just use one of the inputs, record it to the Hard Disk Drive then Archive it onto a disk. Sounds difficult but actually it pretty simple once you've done it a time or two. Its kind of hard to part ways with a machine like that because it is so unique and handy.

Interesting tidbit here. When I bought the HDRW720p/17, it was $599. I bought the 3576H which is more advanced with a 160gb HDD and HDMI upscaling from Sams Club for $248. Amazing how technology advance and the prices drop

It would be easy to hook up a VCR. Just use one of the inputs, record it to the Hard Disk Drive then Archive it onto a disk. Sounds difficult but actually it pretty simple once you've done it a time or two. Its kind of hard to part ways with a machine like that because it is so unique and handy.

Oh, I know it would be easy to do. The hardest part is the waiting on the tape to get done dumping to the disk. How much space is needed for a VHS tape to dump to the drive?

Interesting tidbit here. When I bought the HDRW720p/17, it was $599. I bought the 3576H which is more advanced with a 160gb HDD and HDMI upscaling from Sams Club for $248. Amazing how technology advance and the prices drop


Those prices are the exact reason I don't have one. :)

I may not be too happy too long, may have spoken too soon. The time shift buffer in the new 3576 sucks compared to the 720p. The 3576 requires you to push a record button to even put it in the buffer, once you start using it you cannot move freely along the buffer. On the 720p, once you turned the unit on, the buffer began recording automatically and is a 6 hour buffer. That means you can leave at 4pm, come back at 9pm, back up and watch your shows and never record it permanently to the hard drive. Once 6 hours is reached in live mode, the end of the buffer starts falling off or deleting. Oh man, hope I have not created a headache with the new 3576H. The time buffer is what I have always used the most and its super handy when watching anything. I may be sending the 3576 back if it cant perform any better than this in live mode. I actually think this thing only has a record mode and no buffer at all.:(

Seems like, given the opportunity to improve a product, electronic companies choose to do just the opposite a lot of times. Although, I guess that's not too different from the rest of things nowadays.

I feel your pain!

And that's my off-topic rant for today.:rolleyes:

dmatch

Space required to dump a vhs tape to hard drive is dependant on the length of the tape, and the bitrate you set the recorder at. At 720x480i best quality, you would use 9 GB for a two hour tape. Most use the 2 hr mode, to capture the whole tape in < 4.7GB for burning to a dvd. You can get up to 6 hrs in a 4.7gb file at vhs quality...which would suit dumping SLP tapes...Its pretty versatile.

Space required to dump a vhs tape to hard drive is dependant on the length of the tape, and the bitrate you set the recorder at. At 720x480i best quality, you would use 9 GB for a two hour tape. Most use the 2 hr mode, to capture the whole tape in < 4.7GB for burning to a dvd. You can get up to 6 hrs in a 4.7gb file at vhs quality...which would suit dumping SLP tapes...Its pretty versatile.

I read a report once that showed the the HDRW720p's M1(1hour) and M2(2 hour) modes were just about equal in PQ. I've always recorded shows or movies that I wanted to Archive to DVD in M2 so I could do as you said Dave, Use "1" 4.7GB disc instead of "2"

My DVD recorder has component 480i inputs. With a HD source program, there is a minor PQ improvement using 1 hr mode, but not enough to warrant using two dvd's, and my player won't record dual layers.

Question perhaps someone here can answer:

I just installed me a DB4 antenna to replace my old one that just wasn't getting the job done for HD OTA channels. I only use it for recording and/or watching HD programming on Windows Media Center via Vista Home Premium as I have my computer also connected to my LCD HDTV.

Anyway...got full signal strength on 4, 11, 16, 38.

WMC doesn't find channel 7.1, but I was to understand that it would find it via channel 22-1 only WMC doesn't show to look for that channel...doesn't even list it as an option. I have recently updated my channel guilde so I don't think that's the problem.

I wonder if it's only looking at 7.1 and moving on or is it actually looking for 22-1 at the same time maybe?

Does anyone know if there is a way in WMC to force it into 22-1? To see if KATV is there?

Question perhaps someone here can answer:

I just installed me a DB4 antenna to replace my old one that just wasn't getting the job done for HD OTA channels. I only use it for recording and/or watching HD programming on Windows Media Center via Vista Home Premium as I have my computer also connected to my LCD HDTV.

Anyway...got full signal strength on 4, 11, 16, 38.

WMC doesn't find channel 7.1, but I was to understand that it would find it via channel 22-1 only WMC doesn't show to look for that channel...doesn't even list it as an option. I have recently updated my channel guilde so I don't think that's the problem.

I wonder if it's only looking at 7.1 and moving on or is it actually looking for 22-1 at the same time maybe?

Does anyone know if there is a way in WMC to force it into 22-1? To see if KATV is there?
I already answered this question for someone else I believe a couple pages ago. WMC doesn't ever look for 7.1, but looks for its actual channel number of 22-1. You have to go into the preference file for WMC and change it to where it says 44. If you do a search on here for the answer, you will find all you need to know. I will go ahead and look where I said it and edit this post to reflect that post number.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14466299#post14466299

I already answered this question for someone else I believe a couple pages ago. WMC doesn't ever look for 7.1, but looks for its actual channel number of 22-1. You have to go into the preference file for WMC and change it to where it says 44. If you do a search on here for the answer, you will find all you need to know. I will go ahead and look where I said it and edit this post to reflect that post number.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14466299#post14466299


Thanks...I tried that but I have yet to find any of those files in Vista Home Premium. I'm sure there is a way but I guess it's just called something different...or I'm just totally doing something wrong. I don't profess to know my way around Vista just yet but I'm not a complete moron either. :D

I added it as 22-1/ freq 44 and it shows it with a decent signal strength..I got nothing once I went to the channel guide and clicked on the channel.

So I guess I'll have to figure out how to find that file.

Vista probably copy protected it :) Just Kidding. Welcome to the forum.

you might not see it because you don't have hidden files shown. I don't know much about home premium because I always make it ultimate, but I would think they are in the same area. Do a google about changing that number if you want. I don't think it did 22-1/44 like that because you are referencing two physical frequencies and no virtual. I think all you really need to though is tell it to show hidden files and show operating system files, then go to that directory I said and they should be there. If you want to try to trust me, I can try to remote connect to you to show you where it's at.

Hunter844, did you figure it out yet? Or still need help?

Wow, this thread died fast. :)

Easy come easy go!:rolleyes:

dmatch

Easy come easy go!:rolleyes:

dmatch
Ok, ok, just to get something in here, I will say something that Michael Scott would say:

That's what she said!!!

Hey, I got KOLR analog today...but I was in Eureka Springs, so it doesn't count. Was snowy as heck too.

Snow in August?!:D

Yep. Started as rain, then the front came through. Pretty snow, off my beer mug sitting on the balcony in the 72 degree weather with the nice North breeze blowing. Then I went wading in Table Rock Lake.... Had a nice day.

Believe it or not I am going to post on topic.:o

Have you, davenlr, or anyone else who can receive KTWN-DT (18) had any problem getting this channel this week?

Off and on, mostly on, I have been experiencing what I think must be some sort of interference for about a week now. I have quality readings plenty high enough to receive the channel (~70, and threshold is 55). I can even get the channel with no apparent problem with my older tuner on my computer. What makes me think it is interference is from looking at the nearby channel 20 in analog. There is a very obvious pattern of fine dots that run diagonally across the screen. Another thing that makes me think this might be some sort of interference is that the newer tuner in my Vizio is where I'm having the problem and it has been noted that some newer tuners have been noted to have more problems than was expected due to interference (n+2, n+3 etc. type).

Then there is the Camp Robinson effect (I have to point antenna directly at it). I'm always suspecting military activity when mystical stuff like this starts happening.

Why this would have just started I don't know, but any ideas would be appreciated.

dmatch

Believe it or not I am going to post on topic.:o

Have you, davenlr, or anyone else who can receive KTWN-DT (18) had any problem getting this channel this week?

Off and on, mostly on, I have been experiencing what I think must be some sort of interference for about a week now. I have quality readings plenty high enough to receive the channel (~70, and threshold is 55). I can even get the channel with no apparent problem with my older tuner on my computer. What makes me think it is interference is from looking at the nearby channel 20 in analog. There is a very obvious pattern of fine dots that run diagonally across the screen. Another thing that makes me think this might be some sort of interference is that the newer tuner in my Vizio is where I'm having the problem and it has been noted that some newer tuners have been noted to have more problems than was expected due to interference (n+2, n+3 etc. type).

Then there is the Camp Robinson effect (I have to point antenna directly at it). I'm always suspecting military activity when mystical stuff like this starts happening.

Why this would have just started I don't know, but any ideas would be appreciated.

dmatch

I have it in right now with a signal strength in the high 60's on a DTVpal using an antenna lying on the floor of my attic in Maumelle. My signal strength is usually in the low 60's so it is a little stronger for me tonight. I had a lot of problems receiving it last weekend with rain in the area, but no problems since.

fly

Thanks for the report fly_daddy.

Also, have you ever had the channel (KTWN-DT) mysteriously disappear from your channel list? I have had that happen on 2 different HDTVs, neither of which remove channels because of weak signals like some silly HDTVs (some Philips) do.

dmatch

Thanks for the report fly_daddy.

Also, have you ever had the channel (KTWN-DT) mysteriously disappear from your channel list? I have had that happen on 2 different HDTVs, neither of which remove channels because of weak signals like some silly HDTVs (some Philips) do.

dmatch

I have never seen it disappear. The only receiver that I can receive it on is the DTVPal though.

fly_daddy,

I noticed just after you posted that I am receiving it now too, but didn't for most of the day when I checked periodically. Did you just now check it or had you been watching it earlier?

BTW, the dots on 20 analog are gone now too.

dmatch

fly_daddy,

I noticed just after you posted that I am receiving it now too, but didn't for most of the day when I checked periodically. Did you just now check it or had you been watching it earlier?

BTW, the dots on 20 analog are gone now too.

dmatch

I tuned in around 8:30pm tonight. Also checked it yesterday as early as 6pm. Not here during the afternoon or morning to check. I flip over a couple of times each night for the radar/weather.

fly

Thank you muchly.

dmatch

I couldn't get it at all on my Hauppage USB tuner stick last week, it would just pop in for a second, and pop out again. On the same antenna, however, my 9200HD locked it fine, although I had to turn the antenna about 20 degrees North from where it usually comes in best. Signals here run about 80% with the amp.

I've seen those strange dots and lines on analog channels before when running an amp, but didn't check analog.

I really think they just had a signal issue, but I'm so fringe for them, I didn't think much about it.

Believe it or not I am going to post on topic.:o

Have you, davenlr, or anyone else who can receive KTWN-DT (18) had any problem getting this channel this week?

Off and on, mostly on, I have been experiencing what I think must be some sort of interference for about a week now. I have quality readings plenty high enough to receive the channel (~70, and threshold is 55). I can even get the channel with no apparent problem with my older tuner on my computer. What makes me think it is interference is from looking at the nearby channel 20 in analog. There is a very obvious pattern of fine dots that run diagonally across the screen. Another thing that makes me think this might be some sort of interference is that the newer tuner in my Vizio is where I'm having the problem and it has been noted that some newer tuners have been noted to have more problems than was expected due to interference (n+2, n+3 etc. type).

Then there is the Camp Robinson effect (I have to point antenna directly at it). I'm always suspecting military activity when mystical stuff like this starts happening.

Why this would have just started I don't know, but any ideas would be appreciated.

dmatch

Could be related to recent tropo scatter and KSPR-DT (19) Springfield MO recently increasing to full power. KSPR-DT locked at least once in Southeastern Arkansas for the past four days. I'm still seeing a too weak to decode signal on RF 19 DTV as I'm typing.

For some reason ABC affiliates in and even on the fringes of Arkansas insist on airing the Raycom SEC game of the week. Anyway, these are the ABC OTA affiliates on the fringe areas of Little Rock market that will NOT carry Raycom SEC football and will carry this afternoon's ABC game in HD. Worth a try if you don't have D* HD DNS and can get these to lock.

Shreveport: KTBS-DT 28 (Southwest Ark)
Memphis: WPTY-DT 25 (East Ark, better e. of Crowley's Ridge)
Springfield: KSPR-DT 19 (Northen counties of the LR DMA)


These ABC affiliates choose to preempt HD coverage of ABC and instead are showing the games likely delayed in SD
Fort Smith/Fayetteville: KHBS-DT 21/KHOG-DT 15
Little Rock: KATV (via KWBF-DT 44 subchannel)
Jonesboro: KAIT-DT 9
Greenwood, MS WABG-DT 32 (extreme Southeastern Ark)

Thanks for the ideas on the KTWN-DT ?interference? guys.

Unless things change dramatically for the better, digital TV only is not going to be fun for me here in a less than stellar location for TV signals. :( It might be interesting and challenging, but there are cheaper ways by far to find something of interest and challenging to do. If it ain't one darn thing it's another. This crap is like pushing an invisible chain and paying thru the wazoo to do it. I spend $650 on an HDTV and find, the HDTV has that stupid infuriating audio stutter on KARK-DT (that y'all are probably tired of hearing about), a PBS signal that makes a great "Regional Thunderstorm Detection System" (better known as ReTaRDs) and that will do endless coverage of political conventions but won't do the many other HD shows they have available to them. I could go on and on, and did before I deleted my previously entered prattle.:rolleyes:

With BUD satellite, a computer HDTV tuner, a Samsung SIR-T451, a HDTV, and a lot of hair pulling, I can usually find a way to watch what I want, while my wife just shakes here head and watches the analog TV. BTW, since all the messing with antennas and such trying to get digital reliably, we now have a great picture on just about anything she might want to watch on analog and we can still get it in a thunderstorm.

dmatch

I am sure this has been discussed but my wife is wanting to pick up the PBS HD stations with an OTA. We live in Jacksonville. Is is possible to pick up the digital stations. If so what Antenna would you suggest. Currently pick up 4.1, 11.1, 16.1, 11.2, 18.1, 25.1, 38.1, 38.2, 42.1, 42.2. Can pick up 7.1 but is in and out. Using a radio shack white square outoor antenna.

Thanks for the help!

Dmatch: ReTaRDs is great...Im laughing my butt off on that.
Have you tried running the optical out on the TV that stutters to a surround sound amp?

Firepro569: PBS is Arkansas shows very little HD. To get PBS-HD channel, you need a 36" dish, and a $400 digital satellite receiver. If you are actually talking about the PBS digital from Arkansas Educational Television Network, then you will need a outdoor antenna with at least 6 VHF elements, as well as UHF elements, and there is a 50/50 chance you will also need a Channel Master amp. Depends if you are on the east flat side of Jacksonville (good) or the hilly west side (bad). If you wait until Feb, 2009, you should be able to get it on your current antenna.

@davenlr:

Good idea on checking S/PDIF out. However, the DVD/Home Theater I had that would do that broke and I haven't replaced it.

@Firepro569:

What davenlr says is good advice. I'm not familiar with the antenna you referenced and I assume it is not a large outdoor antenna. Since you can intermittently see one of the the hardest (if not the hardest) to get channel (7.1 signal is broadcast with 42.1. 42.2) around here, you shouldn't need a huge antenna. The combination VHF/UHF antenna type davenlr described is a moderate size and would probably work for you, especially if you also wish to improve your 7.1 reception. Depending on signal level and length of coax to your antenna you may or may not need a pre-amp (davenlr suggested that also) with it.

dmatch

Thanks for the info. I'm kind of lost in this digital stuff......... I get 7.1 good most of the time, but it is not the same quality as 11.1 or 16.1.

Any specific brand anntena you would suggest?

Again Thanks.

firepro569, I would not waste any money on any more antennas if you are getting most of the stations pretty well. It will likely only get better in about 5 months, so if you can hold off on buying anything until then, you will probably be in good shape if you are doing good now. I don't understand why you aren't getting 7.1 as well as you get 42.1 and 42.2. As said earlier, they are all on the same frequency, so all should have the same signal strength.

And as was pointed out, don't count on getting anything from KETS in HD. Its in VERY short supply with them. They could care less if we get to see what we want on 2.1. 2.2, 2.3, and 2.4 don't ever show anything in HD as far as I have ever seen. I have only been able to get those channels on the Zenith set top box that I bought for my two analog antennas and using a crappy pair of unamplified rabbit ears. I can't get it on either of my HD TV's with amp'd antennas on them.

dmatch, the only TV I ever try to tune KARK in on is my Vizio here in the computer room. The audio stutters on it every once in a while just like you say. I will have to check out my Philips in the LR to see if it does it too, but I am likely going to say that its just something about the Vizios and that channel. Thats why I just use my H20 or my HR20 to watch it OTA. The tuners in there, and on my HD tuner card in my computer, don't have that problem.

Depends how serious you are :) I personally would try a medium sized Radio Shack antenna for now, since they are cheap, and you can, if memory serves me, return it if it won't pick up PBS.
Model # is VU-90. Mounting it on the roof or a side mount pole, run good RG6 to TV. Point right at downtown little Rock, and you should get all the stations. If you still have problems with PBS, you might have to fine tune the aim, or add a preamp or return the antenna and get a larger one. In any event, do NOT buy a preamp from Radio shack. If you need an amp, check back here and we will link you to a Channel Master 7777 dealer.

Depends how serious you are :) I personally would try a medium sized Radio Shack antenna for now, since they are cheap, and you can, if memory serves me, return it if it won't pick up PBS.
Model # is VU-90. Mounting it on the roof or a side mount pole, run good RG6 to TV. Point right at downtown little Rock, and you should get all the stations. If you still have problems with PBS, you might have to fine tune the aim, or add a preamp or return the antenna and get a larger one. In any event, do NOT buy a preamp from Radio shack. If you need an amp, check back here and we will link you to a Channel Master 7777 dealer.
Or, if you are like me, you think that $60 is a bit expensive to drop on something just to get 4 more mediocre channels that will most likely improve dramatically come February. It all depends on 1) what you think is expensive, 2) if you really want those channels that bad, and 3) if you are willing to dork (was going to use the other d word, but figured it might offend someone. hehe) around with an antenna on a pole on top or beside your house. It would, however, improve reception most likely on all the other channels a little bit...maybe 10dB or so.

Anywho, its up to you! :)

Plus it would still work after they move to ch 7, would probably net him ch 27 from LR and ch 18 from Cabot which also carried PBS (although not in HD), and rock up his reception of ABC, all at the same time.

Conway Log Cabin Democrat today...

http://thecabin.net/stories/083008/loc_0830080005.shtml

Well, that's interesting....HD lite vs no HD at all...Hopefully their programming will lend itself to multicasting since not much of it is high action. Wonder why no Saturday? Oh yea, they preempt HD national for Lawrence Welk...

JS, you still using the Televes?

Hello, fellow Little Rock residents. Well I'm sure you know by now that AT&T's U-Verse goes live Sept. 2 in our area. I've got installation coming Sept. 6. I've read nearly all day about it and I'm actually getting a little nervous. I hate Comcast, am excited they finally have a decent competitor, and I want to get out from under them. But...there is a noticeable picture quality difference in other U-Verse areas. Namely, macroblocking issues. My thread is here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1061807

Any one else going for this? What do you think?

P.S. Don't be suckered in to Dish Network's TurboHD. Although you can sign up for local channels with this HD-ONLY PACKAGE, the locals are not in HD. Granted I should have read deeper, but it IS kind of misleading when signing up for an HD-only service. But that bad luck lead me to discover U-Verse is coming, so maybe all is well!

JS, you still using the Televes?

No, I had to have the roof re-shingled and didn't put it back up.
Grandfathered in with the east coast HDs till LR goes up.
Gave the Televes to a friend in Greenbrier.

Hello, fellow Little Rock residents. Well I'm sure you know by now that AT&T's U-Verse goes live Sept. 2 in our area. I've got installation coming Sept. 6. I've read nearly all day about it and I'm actually getting a little nervous. I hate Comcast, am excited they finally have a decent competitor, and I want to get out from under them. But...there is a noticeable picture quality difference in other U-Verse areas. Namely, macroblocking issues. My thread is here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1061807

Any one else going for this? What do you think?

P.S. Don't be suckered in to Dish Network's TurboHD. Although you can sign up for local channels with this HD-ONLY PACKAGE, the locals are not in HD. Granted I should have read deeper, but it IS kind of misleading when signing up for an HD-only service. But that bad luck lead me to discover U-Verse is coming, so maybe all is well!

Mine is being installed on 9/6 also and I am anxious to see what the quality is like. I have seen on several sites where folks say the HD quality looks good and I have seen some that say not so good. It may have a lot to do with distance from the VRAD. Ours is at the end of the street, so I am hoping for nice quality.

The 6 hour install should be interesting!

E

Thanks for all of the info, It is greatly appreciated.......... My wife saw all of the kids programming on like 2.4 or 2.5.......... and Asked what it would take to get those channels. Just trying to keep peace in the house, if you know what I mean.

Thanks.

Hello, fellow Little Rock residents. Well I'm sure you know by now that AT&T's U-Verse goes live Sept. 2 in our area. I've got installation coming Sept. 6. I've read nearly all day about it and I'm actually getting a little nervous. I hate Comcast, am excited they finally have a decent competitor, and I want to get out from under them. But...there is a noticeable picture quality difference in other U-Verse areas. Namely, macroblocking issues. My thread is here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1061807

Any one else going for this? What do you think?

P.S. Don't be suckered in to Dish Network's TurboHD. Although you can sign up for local channels with this HD-ONLY PACKAGE, the locals are not in HD. Granted I should have read deeper, but it IS kind of misleading when signing up for an HD-only service. But that bad luck lead me to discover U-Verse is coming, so maybe all is well!

Being a E* sub, I've not looked into "Turbo HD". I always laugh though when any provider says "100+ HD Channels" when they count pay-per-views, premium channels (multichannel HBO/Showtime/Starz), and barkers.

The E* receivers does have built-in OTA tuners. My experience is the Vip211 tuner (non-DVR) is software based and occasionally requires a cold-reboot to work properly, but I've not had to do so recently. Sensitivity is good, but not in the same league as the LG based (Zenith/Insignia) converter box. The darkside of E*'s built in tuners is the requirement of having "locals" to use the program guide for OTA channels.

Question though, is all the major locals offered in HD with U-verse? Of course, there is always the option of D* and they are offering locals in HD in October.

Thanks for all of the info, It is greatly appreciated.......... My wife saw all of the kids programming on like 2.4 or 2.5.......... and Asked what it would take to get those channels. Just trying to keep peace in the house, if you know what I mean.

Thanks.

AETN kids is on the 2-4 subchannel (x-4 Statewide) currently. For me its useless but I don't consider it a bad thing.

Conway Log Cabin Democrat today...

http://thecabin.net/stories/083008/loc_0830080005.shtml

What is AETN thinking keeping AETN Kids up 24/7 but not Create/PBS World!

Hopefuly we'll get Newshour, Nova, and other programming in a greater than 480i format although the HD quality of 2 or more subchannels tends to be a parasite on the primary HD channel
Outdoor combo or small VHF only antenna outside would work until February 17th next year. Then KETS moves to RF ch7 (still remapping as 2-n) and should be good to go even with a CM4228.

Some cable co's carry the four AETN subs in central Arkansas, including the noxious WEHCO/Pine Bluff Cable (PBC doesn't however carry KASN-DT or KLRT-DT for some odd reason).

Being a E* sub, I've not looked into "Turbo HD". I always laugh though when any provider says "100+ HD Channels" when they count pay-per-views, premium channels (multichannel HBO/Showtime/Starz), and barkers.

The E* receivers does have built-in OTA tuners. My experience is the Vip211 tuner (non-DVR) is software based and occasionally requires a cold-reboot to work properly, but I've not had to do so recently. Sensitivity is good, but not in the same league as the LG based (Zenith/Insignia) converter box. The darkside of E*'s built in tuners is the requirement of having "locals" to use the program guide for OTA channels.

Question though, is all the major locals offered in HD with U-verse? Of course, there is always the option of D* and they are offering locals in HD in October.

Yes the locals are in HD with U-verse. All of them. Here is the full list of HD channels on the U200:

A&E, Animal Planet, Big Ten, Bravo, CNBC, CNN, Discovery, ESPN, ESPN2, FSN SW, Food Network, HD Theater, HGTV, History, NBC (KARK), CW (KASN), ABC (KATV), PBS (KETS), FOX (KLRT), CBS (KTHV), Lifetime, NFL, National Geographic, Sci Fi, Science, TBS, TNT, TLC, USA, Universal, Versus/Golf, WGN, Wealth TV

A couple more than Comcast. Rep claimed 15 more by the end of the year. I don't count premiums or PPVs either. OTA HD locals is not an option for me because I want to DVR them. That's what the "deal breaker" was when I had Dish Network all of 15 minutes (when the discovery was made they were only SD).

Also it is important to note that we ARE in the rollout of "whole home" DVR and the ability to get 2 HD streams at once. The latter is important to me when watching one/recording one.

Also, I'm not sure what your E* and D* are referring to.

Mine is being installed on 9/6 also and I am anxious to see what the quality is like. I have seen on several sites where folks say the HD quality looks good and I have seen some that say not so good. It may have a lot to do with distance from the VRAD. Ours is at the end of the street, so I am hoping for nice quality.

The 6 hour install should be interesting!

E

Did you just go looking around your neighborhood for it? I've seen a couple of pictures. Maybe I'll take a trot around the block. What's the good distance to stay under? I ****REALLY**** hope this macroblocking problem is only sounding worse in my mind than it will be. As I pointed out in my referenced post, it seems to vary by channel right now on Comcast...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bpeacock22/2811893537/

If that's it, then my house is about 500 ft away from it. Hope that bodes well. They really should do what Verizon does and run the fiber to the home....maybe that would fix the issue? Or maybe that's not it at all, since the compression is done at their "home base".

Well, that's interesting....HD lite vs no HD at all...Hopefully their programming will lend itself to multicasting since not much of it is high action. Wonder why no Saturday? Oh yea, they preempt HD national for Lawrence Welk...


All of the PBS stations surrounding Arkansas air Welk. WKNO, LPB and MPB though offer an alternative through their 24/7 PBS-HD feeds (such as Nova at 7pm and Austin City Limits at 8pm).

Hello, fellow Little Rock residents. Well I'm sure you know by now that AT&T's U-Verse goes live Sept. 2 in our area. I've got installation coming Sept. 6.

Where did you find that it's going live Sept. 2? It still tells me it's unavailable.

Sam

Regarding AETN (KETS-DT) going HD Lite:

Very roughly, the channel bit rates are 5,5,4,3 mb/s (Primary,Create,Scholar,Kids). If they do not change anything else, then by dropping Create at times, they will gain the largest bit rate of the 3 subchannels for their primary channel. That should give them about 10 mb/s on their primary HD feed. That is, and needs to be, better than what either KWBF-DT or KATV-DT have currently (8 and 7 mb/s). I hope they don't have anything that they will need to stretch to 16:9 full screen. I hate that and will hardly ever watch KWBF-DT because of it.

IMHO, HD Lite is better than no HD.

This should be interesting.

dmatch

Where did you find that it's going live Sept. 2? It still tells me it's unavailable.

Sam

I guess it is not city-wide? I heard one guy say it may be localized to central and west Little Rock areas.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bpeacock22/2811893537/

If that's it, then my house is about 500 ft away from it. Hope that bodes well. They really should do what Verizon does and run the fiber to the home....maybe that would fix the issue? Or maybe that's not it at all, since the compression is done at their "home base".That last "Or" would be it.

For the most part, with digital you get the intended picture or nothing, distance will not degrade the quality if you get a picture. With analog signals the quality of the picture would degrade, as they say, "gracefully", finally turning to snow. Digital does not degrade gracefully. The first sign of degradation is when it begins to puzzle, leaving rectangles from different parts of the picture in the wrong place on the screen. Then it (picture) completely goes away, comes back puzzled, goes away again, etc.

So, if the picture is not popping in and out with puzzling and it has a general lack of quality it would be "home base" at fault. In that case you get things such as mosquito noise, macro-blocking, a generally washed out picture, and banding in gradual color changes.

dmatch

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bpeacock22/2811893537/

If that's it, then my house is about 500 ft away from it. Hope that bodes well. They really should do what Verizon does and run the fiber to the home....maybe that would fix the issue? Or maybe that's not it at all, since the compression is done at their "home base".
Thats a standard SWBell neighborhood distribution box. I doubt it comes from there.

OTA HD locals is not an option for me because I want to DVR them. That's what the "deal breaker" was when I had Dish Network all of 15 minutes (when the discovery was made they were only SD).

OTA HD can be DVR'd on Dish boxes AND DirecTV boxes. DirecTV boxes you don't have to subscribe to local channels to do this, but they are already included in most packages. In fact, even if you cancel your service, I believe you can still use the DirecTV boxes to get OTA channels.

Also it is important to note that we ARE in the rollout of "whole home" DVR and the ability to get 2 HD streams at once. The latter is important to me when watching one/recording one.

All satellite service receivers that I know of, plus the crappy Comcrap boxes can do this currently. I have been recording two HD sources (OTA & Sat, OTA & OTA, and Sat & Sat sources) for the past 2 years (could have done it earlier, but thats just when I instituted HD service.

Also, I'm not sure what your E* and D* are referring to.
That would be the lazy persons abreviations of E* = Echostar (aka Dish) and D* = DirecTV. No offense to the lazy people, I understand completely.


I ****REALLY**** hope this macroblocking problem is only sounding worse in my mind than it will be. As I pointed out in my referenced post, it seems to vary by channel right now on Comcast...

Some people are just more susceptible to seeing this macroblocking than others. Some people complained about seeing it during the Olympics graphics both OTA and Sat fed, but I never really noticed it until I started looking real close and trying to find fault with it. It is sometimes just whether it is something you notice and care about, or something you don't.

I guess it is not city-wide? I heard one guy say it may be localized to central and west Little Rock areas.

Yea, part of their licensing deal with the city was not having to do it city wide. But I'm out here in WLR and they've put in a box down the road from my house. Who knows, guess I'll just have to be patient since I refuse to pay Comcast anything.

BTW, I am in West Little Rock and its being listed as unavailable when doing a service check on the U-Verse website.

Its going to take a major reduction in price without losing quality or channels to get me to break away from DirecTV again. Made that mistake once, not likely to do it again. I love my service, always have. Just the lack of cooperation with regards to equipment made me go to the evil Comcrap.

I was so sick of AT&T's billing, extra charges, lies when quoting the price of service, and lots of other little reasons, that I switched my telephone service to comcast. I hope, sincerely, that you guys have good luck. Competition helps us all. Just watch your bills very carefully.

As for PBS, its a good deal, but I just don't think 10 mbs for a 1080i HD stream is enough. I use more than that for encoding 720p here. Will just have to wait and see. I'm guessing they don't have a statmuxer, since they don't even have a HD timeshift recorder... But the State ordered two $8000 coffee makers for their Emergency management center at the health dept...but alas, that must be a separate bank account that AETN doesn't have access to...and I hate to think what ADEM cost us...scary.

Did you just go looking around your neighborhood for it? I've seen a couple of pictures. Maybe I'll take a trot around the block. What's the good distance to stay under? I ****REALLY**** hope this macroblocking problem is only sounding worse in my mind than it will be. As I pointed out in my referenced post, it seems to vary by channel right now on Comcast...

I saw the fiber truck at the one in my neighborhood for days. I also asked the fiber guys about my neighborhood when they were at the station one day moving an AT&T fiber drop to a new location.

When I am referring to distance from the VRAD, I am referring to the fact that a certain throughput is needed from the VRAD or DSLAM to your home to sustain the streams. Apparently the current distance is limited to 2300 to 2800 feet, but they are working to extend that. The issue would be if you were on the fringe of the limits and they tried to choke it in there.

I also saw that AT&T is now offering a 10Mb DSL connection as the new highest speed. I would be curious to see what the next speeds they are going to offer are and pricing. Now the 10Mb connection is less than I paid for my first DSL connection in 1999 from AT&T.

E

@davenlr:

KETS-DT might actually statmux, although it appears limited. That is why I stated "roughly" what the bit rates were. Using TSReader I can watch the bit rates move up and down some, but not a lot, maybe 1 mb/s on their primary channel. I wish I knew how to tell if they really do statmux.

Yeah, it won't be a pristine picture but it should be as good as KWBF-DT or KATV-DT. That's not saying a lot tho.

When it comes right down to it, on a very large screen, ATSC at a full 18 mbps of video isn't enough for some sporting events.

Does any local channel have an HD recorder?

dmatch

I was so sick of AT&T's billing, extra charges, lies when quoting the price of service, and lots of other little reasons, that I switched my telephone service to comcast. I hope, sincerely, that you guys have good luck. Competition helps us all. Just watch your bills very carefully.

Not to belittle you for picking Comcast's service, but they offer less features for quite a bit more money than Vonage. Vonage was always a GREAT service for me. I never had problems with it and it was dirt cheap compared to AT&T. I have never understood why Comcast wants to charge so darn much for their service when it offers so little. The ONLY plus it has is that it has a built-in battery backup for when the lights are out you can use the phone. Vonage you have to do your own.

The plus to the Whole Home DVR is that anything recorded on that DVR can be played on any TV in the house with a U-Verse STB. That is a step up from my Dish 622 that only sends the signal to the 2 TV's connected to it. Plus, I am now able to play HD material from the DVR to any TV, where the 622 is limited to the main TV being HD and the second TV SD.

The maximum 2 HD streams will take some getting used to since the 622 can record 3 HD signals at one time when you factor in the OTA. I guess it is just going to require some fancy manipulation of the timer settings.

E

I got a real special price, good for the first year, with Comcast. Price for AT&T 1.5 DSL+Vonage was $35/month more than I got Comcast HSI+Comcast Digital Voice for. No brainer for me.

Thats a standard SWBell neighborhood distribution box. I doubt it comes from there.

No, bpeacock22 is right, my understanding is the standard boxes don't have the power meter installed right next to them, that's a U-Verse fiber optic box.

The plus to the Whole Home DVR is that anything recorded on that DVR can be played on any TV in the house with a U-Verse STB. That is a step up from my Dish 622 that only sends the signal to the 2 TV's connected to it. Plus, I am now able to play HD material from the DVR to any TV, where the 622 is limited to the main TV being HD and the second TV SD.

The maximum 2 HD streams will take some getting used to since the 622 can record 3 HD signals at one time when you factor in the OTA. I guess it is just going to require some fancy manipulation of the timer settings.

E
Yeah, the Whole Home DVR is something that DirecTV is working on. It's called Multi-Room Viewing (MVR) for them. Soon, they will have it where, if you have multiple DVR's in your house, you can stream content from one to another as long as they are networked. No love for non-DVR's, however. And, if you wanna get technical about it, the DirecTV DVR's can do 3 recordings at once. One from either an OTA & Sat, Sat & Sat, or OTA & OTA, PLUS one VOD which comes from the Internet. So, it is at least possible. Maybe one day we can do 4 by using both OTA's and both Sat's. :)

No, bpeacock22 is right, my understanding is the standard boxes don't have the power meter installed right next to them, that's a U-Verse fiber optic box.
The one over here by my house has had the power meter next to it for a few years now. Maybe its just not something that is always right next to the box??? At least I think it has it...I seem to remember the round housing. I will make sure and look next time by it. I am wondering if they have like amps built into some of the boxes or something in there that requires electricity is why they have them there.

I got a real special price, good for the first year, with Comcast. Price for AT&T 1.5 DSL+Vonage was $35/month more than I got Comcast HSI+Comcast Digital Voice for. No brainer for me.

If you were talking about using it with DSL, then hell yeah its gonna be cheaper to go with Comcrap because you would be paying for 2 phone lines with AT&T, land line and Vonage both together.

Since you switched to Comcrap Internet, you don't have to bundle it with them. In fact, sometimes its more of a pain when they do cause you have to renegotiate with them. :) They are charging, I believe, $35 + tax per month for their VoIP for most everyone (well, you said you got a special price, but I doubt it's any lower than, say, $25 at the extreme low end).

Vonage only charges a max of $24.95/month for unlimited and $14.95 for 500 minutes (the plan I was on). It really depends on how much you use it. They also have a hidden plan that they don't tell you about where you get all incoming calls for free, but pay a flat rate per minute for outbound that's like $10 I think maybe per month or maybe it was $5 or something. It was right when we were canceling that they offered it to us, so I don't remember too well.

And since you went with Comcrap for HSI, then you can completely get rid of the AT&T line and go pure VoIP saving you at least another $35 a month after all their hidden fees. That's one major reason why I didn't keep DSL around for long. Got tired of paying out the rear for a phone line I rarely used when I could get one for a hell of a lot less with Vonage and a cable Internet connection.

Does that make sense all that I said, cause it really makes sense in my head, just wanna make sure it makes sense out loud too. :) I just got sick of Comcast and AT&T both trying to make raping customers sound like a good deal.

AT&T DSL without AT&T phone service is $65 per month for 1.5 service. Add Vonages' cost to that. Comcast gave me HSI for the standard "if you have cable tv" price, and Phone for $19.95/mo with unlimited in and out of state long distance. Total comcast bill is about equal to just DSL without phone service. Problem with Vonage is they don't supply any internet service, so you have to pay someone for it...Windstream and AT&T were by far the highest priced and SLOWEST internet connections unless you got their phone service too. Comcast had the same deal with cable tv, HSI cost LOTS more if you didn't get cable tv too. I basically talked them into giving me HSI for the same price they charge existing cable customers, and then told them I didn't want phone service because they wanted too much, and I hardly ever use the phone...she put me on hold and came back with the $19.95/mo for a year offer.

DX-Alert: KETK-DT from Jacksonville, Tx ch 22 coming in at 80% right now. Once KATV fires up, this one will be a prize.

DX-Alert: KETK-DT from Jacksonville, Tx ch 22 coming in at 80% right now. Once KATV fires up, this one will be a prize.

I agree. I saw some Memphis and Shreveport DTV's briefly last night during a bandscan. Didn't see KETK, but that was before midnight. I'm still looking for KMIZ-DT, hopefully I'll have them before KATV fires up.

Speaking of firing up, Springfield ABC affiliate (http://tvdxseark.blogspot.com/2008/08/and-on-sixth-day.html) KSPR-DT is in this morning, once again.

I fought and I fought and I fought to try to get DSL without phone service. They told me at least 10 different times that you are not allowed to do that. The latest was about 2 months ago. Was hoping to get a cheaper service to cut down on bills. Glad to see I don't have anything to worry about there. :)

Comcast HSI doesn't cost "LOTS" more without cable TV, maybe just a little, hehe. Its only like $15 I believe (used to be just $10, but they decided to change that it seems). The Comcast cable customer internet price is only like 3 bucks cheaper if you get the analog cable customer service AND HSI. :) Thats what I am doing because they refused to give me the cable subscriber price any other way. It was either that or get some other service bundled like you did. And if you were so inclined, you could go out, remove the terminators yourself, and get full fledged analog and the clearQAM channels, but I don't know why anyone would want to do that when there are other better sources. Anyway, the price is not much different at all, so I don't know why they don't just change the pricing where its the same if they are going to make you get cable TV just to get the lower price. They can still fool people into getting their basic analog service. It would give the illusion of cheaper prices while getting more of their services out there. The basic analog service is like $6.95 if you talk them into giving it to you. It only took me about 5 minutes to get the lady I talked to to give me a lower price. You don't have to get the standard basic. There is like a lifeline type package that is supposed to only give you the locals.

I realize that you still have to have an internet provider with Vonage. My thoughts were the exact same as yours. I don't use the phone much. If they had given me that offer, I would be like "Well, if I hardly use the phone, I could save another $5 a month by getting Vonage instead of your "Digital Phone Service" and not be worried about having to talk you into giving me that deal again next year." Anyway, whatever works for you I suppose. I just have been so disappointed with Comcast's customer service over the years is why I am promoting Vonage. They are always really good and nice (until you wanna cancel, then they make it a little aggrivating. hehehe).

That last "Or" would be it.

For the most part, with digital you get the intended picture or nothing, distance will not degrade the quality if you get a picture. With analog signals the quality of the picture would degrade, as they say, "gracefully", finally turning to snow. Digital does not degrade gracefully. The first sign of degradation is when it begins to puzzle, leaving rectangles from different parts of the picture in the wrong place on the screen. Then it (picture) completely goes away, comes back puzzled, goes away again, etc.

So, if the picture is not popping in and out with puzzling and it has a general lack of quality it would be "home base" at fault. In that case you get things such as mosquito noise, macro-blocking, a generally washed out picture, and banding in gradual color changes.

dmatch

Yeah I knew that...don't know what I was thinking. Was in information overload yesterday. Thanks for setting me straight through. :p I'm curious enough to research later today on the bitrate required for a true, uncompressed HD signal, then how much each provider is compressing it. (As an aside, I can definitely see a difference in uncompressed data when it comes to audio. Blu-Ray touts their picture quality, but to me, the audio makes it worth it too! It's getting hard for me to watch SD-DVDs now.)

OTA HD can be DVR'd on Dish boxes AND DirecTV boxes. DirecTV boxes you don't have to subscribe to local channels to do this, but they are already included in most packages. In fact, even if you cancel your service, I believe you can still use the DirecTV boxes to get OTA channels.

All satellite service receivers that I know of, plus the crappy Comcrap boxes can do this currently. I have been recording two HD sources (OTA & Sat, OTA & OTA, and Sat & Sat sources) for the past 2 years (could have done it earlier, but thats just when I instituted HD service.

Some people are just more susceptible to seeing this macroblocking than others. Some people complained about seeing it during the Olympics graphics both OTA and Sat fed, but I never really noticed it until I started looking real close and trying to find fault with it. It is sometimes just whether it is something you notice and care about, or something you don't.

I specifically asked the Dish rep if the locals could be DVR'ed if the OTA antenna was plugged into the Dish Network box and she said no. So was she wrong? You've actually done this? Would have stayed if this is true.

True, most providers allow record one/watch one for HD, but U-Verse was not until *very* recently. Yes, they brag about being able to record FOUR channels at once, but the catch is you were limited to 1 HD and 3 SD. Now if you are in the "right" areas, you can get 2 HD/2 SD at once.

Overlooking the provider's compression choices for a second, yesterday while watching football on various channels, I did notice differences in broadcast. Particularly in which had "fuzzy fields and fans" and which were more clear. Some has noticeable "resolution lines" in the backgrounds. So the blame can't be totally placed on the provider, I suppose. Makes me wonder how psychosomatic this is...didn't really notice before until I read about it. Ha ha.

I specifically asked the Dish rep if the locals could be DVR'ed if the OTA antenna was plugged into the Dish Network box and she said no. So was she wrong? You've actually done this? Would have stayed if this is true.

My dad has been doing this for the longest time now. Well, every since they got OTA reception in the boxes and he got a DVR that had OTA reception anyway. Works pretty well for him. He has been happy. (although with Dish I wonder how. LOL) Honestly, that rep was a moron in my eyes. What kinda sense would that make to not be able to record the local OTA when you can record all the rest of the channels?? No customer would put up with that. They would want to be able to record OTA HD stuff just as much as all the other stuff. If you have an HD box, you should be able to record ALL HD, not just some. Its going to be true that 9 times out of 10 when you call customer service at either DirecTV or Dish that the person you get will not know their butt from a hole in the ground. :)

AT&T DSL without AT&T phone service is $65 per month for 1.5 service. Add Vonages' cost to that. Comcast gave me HSI for the standard "if you have cable tv" price, and Phone for $19.95/mo with unlimited in and out of state long distance. Total comcast bill is about equal to just DSL without phone service. Problem with Vonage is they don't supply any internet service, so you have to pay someone for it...Windstream and AT&T were by far the highest priced and SLOWEST internet connections unless you got their phone service too. Comcast had the same deal with cable tv, HSI cost LOTS more if you didn't get cable tv too. I basically talked them into giving me HSI for the same price they charge existing cable customers, and then told them I didn't want phone service because they wanted too much, and I hardly ever use the phone...she put me on hold and came back with the $19.95/mo for a year offer.
I have a dry AT&T DSL line in Bryant for $28.99/month for the 3MB down speed. I dropped the phone line in January 2008, and best I can recall had zero issues.

I understand that AT&T has raised the pricing, however I assume that I cam still under some pricing contract for the time being.

You might search for additional info on http://www.dslreports.com

Another DX'er is reporting that D* is carrying WDSU New Orleans temporarily on ch 361 for hurricane coverage. I checked E* for this station or another one from NOLA and nothing--just the national networks (CNN/FOX/MSNBC,etc).

WWL running two feeds on AMC5 Ku...Also there are TWC, Cnn, Cbs, and several independent live trucks...feeds/freqs are listed on Rick's website at gofastmotorsports.com for those with fta.

Confirmed WDSU is on D*361.

Edit: All 5 New Orleans affiliates are live at http://maroonspoon.com/wx/gustov.html

Screenshots via my blog (http://tvdxseark.blogspot.com/2008/09/south-louisiana-live-tv-relay-via.html)

KMSS-DT kicks butt up here when there is any tropo at all. Looks like they really had everything in place for this storm. Coverage in phenomenal.

KMSS-DT kicks butt up here when there is any tropo at all. Looks like they really had everything in place for this storm. Coverage in phenomenal.

Yes it is...too bad KMSS isn't making lock here at present (9:43am). KTVE-DT El Dorado has a 24/7 radar (based in Monroe LA) on the 10-2 subchannel. I had to correct the subchannel's aspect ratio on my Zenith box (to Squeezed) since KTVE defaults to "KWBF/TNT Mode" on 10-2...

I've seen some radar this morning for sure. I'm watching WWL-DT live on a FTA uplink on my top monitor, and WDSU live on Directv on the bottom monitor...lots better coverage than the big news networks.

Hope we get some more rain up here...the rain of the past few weeks has everything looking like spring around here. And saving me lots of money on A/C :)

Haley-SEA: How's Gustov? See the rain bands made it to you...

Haley-SEA: How's Gustov? See the rain bands made it to you...

Up in PB today this afternoon visiting family...left @ 8pm and started light rain. Right now only very faint sprinkles.

KTVE's 10pm news (which I rarely watch) reports power outages in Ruston LA and a blackout of Bastrop LA caused by winds from Gustav's feeder bands.

It was weird...Baton Rouge got it worse than the coast...It was the backup for WWL, and WWL never dropped below 50% here, but their backup kicked the bucket several times.

For any of you who might be interested, I recently purchased the Magnavox H2160MW9 HDD & DVD Recorder with ATSC standard digital tuner and 6hr live tv time shift buffer. I feed the Directv to the 2160 via S-vid. The recorder then takes the ATSC signals and the E1 signals and upscale them to 1080p via HDMI to the tv. In the link below are some images I took this morining that shows the PQ thru the recorder, which also has a 160GB Hard drive for recording. These pics have been down rezed, it looks much better here in my living room watching it live. IMO, very good PQ.:)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14573415#post14573415

It was weird...Baton Rouge got it worse than the coast...It was the backup for WWL, and WWL never dropped below 50% here, but their backup kicked the bucket several times.

My uncle lives in Baton Rouge. Talked to him yesterday and they were taking a beating at the time. I looked at the weather map a few minutes ago and you can still see the eye or the center of the storm very clearly and the eye was in the bottom part of ARK. SPOOKY:eek: I thought the eye was supposed t break up not too far after reaching land:confused:

Anyone seen any KATV tower construction start on Shinall Mountain? Should be some trees being cleared or concrete being poured by now I'd think.

Anyone seen any KATV tower construction start on Shinall Mountain? Should be some trees being cleared or concrete being poured by now I'd think.
Yeah, its goin on. Was up there on the 16th and it was getting cleared and stuff.

Been thinking about getting some sort of media center extender for my son's room so he can watch sesame street or whatever if I record it on this computer. Anyone got any suggestions for a decent, but cheap (important part) one? I was thinking about getting media center extender for my original xbox, but people still want too much for them for some reason. Oh, and I would like it to be a windows media center extender cause I don't wanna have to run anything else on here full time. Would rather it just take advantage of media center built into vista cause it works pretty well.

On a related note, still hoping to see that update to Vista Media Center that includes QAM ability in it. That would be so cool.

I saw on arkansasonline.com that U-Verse is now available in central Arkansas. Any thoughts?

Heh, been talking about that a little already. Look on like the previous page or the page before if you aren't seeing it. :)

No, bpeacock22 is right, my understanding is the standard boxes don't have the power meter installed right next to them, that's a U-Verse fiber optic box.
The one over here by my house has had the power meter next to it for a few years now. Maybe its just not something that is always right next to the box??? At least I think it has it...I seem to remember the round housing. I will make sure and look next time by it. I am wondering if they have like amps built into some of the boxes or something in there that requires electricity is why they have them there.

Just as an update to this, I drove by the box over here by my house and it too has a power meter on it. And, as a reminder of what I said previously, we are not eligible to get u-verse in my neighborhood. I still contend that all boxes probably have power meters on them because there is most likely something in there, like DSL equipment, that requires power, so they need to have power supplied to the box through a meter.

Change that, just checked again. Apparently, now it's available. So, I guess that means I might have been wrong about the power meter.

steveken--I have also had dsl service without a phone line since January. Just ask for dry loop dsl. It's the same price as dsl service that's bundled with a phone. It's a little tricky to get it if you already have dsl with phone service because you have to disconnect both and then reorder dsl. I was without internet for 2-3 days. But I've been saving money all year, so I think it was worth it.

That's what I tried to do, and they told me my dsl bill would be $65, up from 19.95, so I had it all disconnected. They shouldn't have lied to me (again).

Couple of things, arxaw corrected me, I was wrong about the power box on the AT&T boxes, I was told at work that there is something additional on the U-Verse boxes to make them stand out, but I'm not sure what it was. And I also have a dsl dry line, with no home phone, and it's $35 a month.

Well, I am not wanting to get DSL any more. I can't really remember how it all went, all I do know is they kinda pissed me off when they were telling the prices for 1.5 service when I was wanting to switch from 6Mbps service with Cable. It just seemed such an outrageous price for the speed. Can't remember exactly if they told me I had to get a phone or not. When I was looking at it, it was just a means to lower bills, but it wasn't going to do any lowering, so I quit worrying about it. And I sure as heck wasn't going to pay out the nose for DSL (out the nose being more than $20/month for the 1.5 service).

Cable, to me at least, has always seemed a whole lot better than DSL ever was, even though it does go down without warning every now and then. So, I am perfectly content sticking with what I have. I can't explain it, but Cable has always seemed peppier and a little more reliable than DSL.

hmm, can't find that paper with the prices on it. I do remember that with what I was told, it was in the $60's, so it must have been with a phone line in it and I just don't need it. :) Anyway, done with that for now. Still need to look at all the choices for a windows media center extender....too many choices and not enough reliable feedback on them.

I had dish with att phone & dsl and both bills were over 200.

I went with Vonage (with a Dallas # and an extra virtual number for HS Village) along with Time Warner digital cable & 7 mbps cable modem. It saved me 80 bucks a month. My cable service is more reliable than dsl, if it ever goes off (rarely) it usually comes back before I call them. With the dsl I had to make 3 or 4 calls to different numbers until they could connect me to the right person, who may or may not could fix it right away. It used to run me insane.

They said dry loop would be 65 when I tried to re-negotiate my rates last year. That was it for me. I got tired of having to beg for rates for a year at a time plus the tech hassles.

I have finally got what appears to be the answer to my question regarding if LPTV digital TV stations must include EPG data and have accurate time. I did not get a definitive answer from my inquiry to fccinfo@fcc.gov but did get a reference to a document.

The short answer appears to be no.

This is from :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-04-220A1.pdf

FCC REPORT AND ORDER
Adopted: September 9, 2004 Released: September 30, 2004

.... Snip ....
.... To page 81 ....

243. The Notice in this proceeding did not specifically consider the implications of PSIP for digital LPTV stations, including cost information, nor did our Notice in the Second DTV Periodic Review proceeding seek comment in this regard. Commenters generally did not address this issue.499 As described above, the A/65B PSIP standard offers significant benefits to broadcasters and consumers, including channel navigation protocols to facilitate tuning of single and multiple program channels in the digital bit stream. It also specifies a means for the transmission of v-chip program ratings and closed captioning information.500 In order to make these benefits available to viewers and provide an attractive service, we believe many licensees of digital LPTV stations may choose to implement the ATSC A/65B PSIP standard, at least those elements that facilitate tuning and channel navigation by DTV receivers.501 We strongly encourage these licensees to implement ATSC A/65B PSIP in their station operations.502 We are also mindful of the costs of full or partial implementation of PSIP, and we do not want to impose requirements that would financially burden stations that operate on limited budgets. We are concerned that we do not have an adequate record of these costs and their impact on LPTV station licensees, particularly the smaller stations. 503 As we begin to create opportunities for digital LPTV service, we do not want to impose costs that could discourage licensees from operating digital stations. Thus, for this reason, we will not at this time require digital LPTV stations to comply with the ATSC A65/B standard. Situations may arise, however, that may compel a station to become compliant with the PSIP navigational elements.504 We also note that digital LPTV stations will be required to transmit closed captioning information that can be displayed on DTV receivers. The full implementation of PSIP would facilitate licensee compliance with this requirement.505 We will revisit the PSIP implications for digital LPTV stations in a future DTV proceeding.
I had asked about this here in the past, so I thought I would share what the FCC has responded about this.

dmatch

Oh well, kinda figured that would be their answer. Typical government "it applies to some, but not everyone" mentality. What can ya do? :)

Yeah, and also in typical fashion, a bunch of ... this is what we think you should do. Regulators love to dwell on the "should" when the "shall" can't be arranged in the regs.

dmatch

I've got a problem and I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced it. I have a dish 722 receiver and get HD locals OTA. I subscribe to locals via dish also. The KATV program guide for the OTA channel is showing the WB program guide info. I'm assuming this is because KATV is currently broadcasting off of the WB tower.

Anyway, I've talked to Dish at least six times and can't get an answer, they have told me a variety of things. Last thing they told me was that the OTA channel provides the program guide info. So I emailed KATV but they were no help either.

Is anyone else experiencing this or aware of the problem? Is it just me? I have googled just about everything I can think of but can't come up with anything for this problem.

I'm not familiar wish Dish receivers, but if you don't get an answer here, log onto the dbstalk.com forum, and check in the Dish section. They should be able to help.

Has anyone watched AETN's HD lately? They now broadcast one HD channel and THREE SD subchannels currently. AETN-1 is downgraded to 720p and looks like horse s***. When I turned over there tonight to see how the Republican convention looked, I thought they forgot to flip the switch b/c it didn't look like is usually does, but I got on my laptop and tuned in KETZ-12, and sure enough, AETN has jumped on the bandwagon... my display says 1280x720 16:9. I checked out the AETN website and they confirm the change...instead on the website they say one HD channel and two SD channels.... anyway just thought I'd take the time to pass along my observation.... hardly have time to post anymore! :(

Edit - I noticed the "HD-Lite" was discussed last week... oh well... it just proves that a viewer can tell a difference in unaltered HD and DVD quality "HD" without being told what it actually is...haha.

Just checked....bitrate for KETZ-1 is hovering around 8.36 mps.....eeekkk :eek:

Maybe is Directv carries them they can run fiber at full bitrate to the D* receive facility... Gustov keeps knocking out my KU direct feed, so I'm watching KETS too.

KETS is running -1 at 1080i, -2 is null, -3 and -4 are 480i. Noticable sharpness difference between -1 and pBS-HD national, but no noticable pixellation or macroblocking here.

I've got a problem and I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced it. I have a dish 722 receiver and get HD locals OTA. I subscribe to locals via dish also. The KATV program guide for the OTA channel is showing the WB program guide info. I'm assuming this is because KATV is currently broadcasting off of the WB tower.

Anyway, I've talked to Dish at least six times and can't get an answer, they have told me a variety of things. Last thing they told me was that the OTA channel provides the program guide info. So I emailed KATV but they were no help either.

Is anyone else experiencing this or aware of the problem? Is it just me? I have googled just about everything I can think of but can't come up with anything for this problem.
It's more than likely an issue with the way Dish is providing your listings. I say that because, if I am not mistaken, you don't even get listings for the OTA stuff if you don't pay for the local channels they carry on the satellite. If that is the case, they more than likely have something screwed up in the mappings of the channels that they are "letting" you get. All of the listings should be right now around here. I spent a lot of time getting ahold of tribune and talking them into fixing the listings. Any errors you see now are by fault of the provider. I am looking at the listings through my Vista Media Center and on DirecTV receivers and see nothing wrong with the KATV listings. Again, it's Dish's fault I believe.

Has anyone watched AETN's HD lately? They now broadcast one HD channel and THREE SD subchannels currently. AETN-1 is downgraded to 720p and looks like horse s***. When I turned over there tonight to see how the Republican convention looked, I thought they forgot to flip the switch b/c it didn't look like is usually does, but I got on my laptop and tuned in KETZ-12, and sure enough, AETN has jumped on the bandwagon... my display says 1280x720 16:9. I checked out the AETN website and they confirm the change...instead on the website they say one HD channel and two SD channels.... anyway just thought I'd take the time to pass along my observation.... hardly have time to post anymore! :(

Edit - I noticed the "HD-Lite" was discussed last week... oh well... it just proves that a viewer can tell a difference in unaltered HD and DVD quality "HD" without being told what it actually is...haha.
Yeah, at 5 when they turn on HD, they drop KETS-2, keeping 3 and 4 online. IF they had the proper bandwidth to allocate to the HD listings, 720p would look better than 1080i in most cases. At least thats what I have seen in some instances and what I have always heard everyone say. I actually think its somewhat subjective though depending on who you talk to. :)

Maybe is Directv carries them they can run fiber at full bitrate to the D* receive facility... Gustov keeps knocking out my KU direct feed, so I'm watching KETS too.

KETS is running -1 at 1080i, -2 is null, -3 and -4 are 480i. Noticable sharpness difference between -1 and pBS-HD national, but no noticable pixellation or macroblocking here.
Last time I looked at the new KETS-DT setup on TSReader the primary channel was running about 9 mb/s on 2.1 and 4-5 mb/s each on 2.3 and 2.4.

Not exceptional but acceptable (on a small 32" HDTV)...But now I have to watch the old men (Last of Summer Wine) in stretch-0-vision.:(

dmatch

Funny they are running different configurations on different state transmitter sites.

It's more than likely an issue with the way Dish is providing your listings. I say that because, if I am not mistaken, you don't even get listings for the OTA stuff if you don't pay for the local channels they carry on the satellite. If that is the case, they more than likely have something screwed up in the mappings of the channels that they are "letting" you get. All of the listings should be right now around here. I spent a lot of time getting ahold of tribune and talking them into fixing the listings. Any errors you see now are by fault of the provider. I am looking at the listings through my Vista Media Center and on DirecTV receivers and see nothing wrong with the KATV listings. Again, it's Dish's fault I believe.

Thanks for the response. That is the conclusion I came to through the research I've done, that the program guide info displayed comes from the satellite and is mapped to the local OTA. Even though the tech support site for Dish says this, I can't seem to convince the tech support folks that this is the case. I may try them again but I'm about ready to give it up and hope when the new KATV tower goes up and they go back to channel 22 it will be corrected.

A buddy of mine has a similar setup but with a D* receiver and his KATV program guide is right.

I would be interested to see if anyone else reading this forum has had the same experience, or has a similar setup with no problems.

Its interesting to see Jim Leher's coat which has fine detail, go in and out of focus on KETS and you can count the threads on PBS-HD national.... Its interesting...one would expect macroblocking but instead in seeing a dramatic loss of detail. Almost like they were upconverting 480i.... very odd.

Louisiana Public Broadcasting has LPB-1, LPB create on 2, and LPB-HD on 3. They leave the resolution at the native 1080i.... and it looks great! I don't know what AETN is doing wrong.

Its interesting to see Jim Leher's coat which has fine detail, go in and out of focus on KETS and you can count the threads on PBS-HD national.... Its interesting...one would expect macroblocking but instead in seeing a dramatic loss of detail. Almost like they were upconverting 480i.... very odd.


I agree...it looks like upconverted 480i....

Thanks for the response. That is the conclusion I came to through the research I've done, that the program guide info displayed comes from the satellite and is mapped to the local OTA. Even though the tech support site for Dish says this, I can't seem to convince the tech support folks that this is the case. I may try them again but I'm about ready to give it up and hope when the new KATV tower goes up and they go back to channel 22 it will be corrected.

A buddy of mine has a similar setup but with a D* receiver and his KATV program guide is right.

I would be interested to see if anyone else reading this forum has had the same experience, or has a similar setup with no problems.
Next time you contact them about it, tell them to contact Tribune Media Services to double check what the content really is. They should be able to find out that there is absolutely nothing wrong with KATV's lineup and that it is indeed their fault. Of course, you probably won't be able to convince them of this, but its worth a shot.

You know, now that you mention this, I wonder if my Dad is having this same problem. I believe he has the same receiver. I haven't heard anything from him about this, so I dunno. Will have to follow up with him.

I've got a problem and I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced it. I have a dish 722 receiver and get HD locals OTA. I subscribe to locals via dish also. The KATV program guide for the OTA channel is showing the WB program guide info. I'm assuming this is because KATV is currently broadcasting off of the WB tower.

Anyway, I've talked to Dish at least six times and can't get an answer, they have told me a variety of things. Last thing they told me was that the OTA channel provides the program guide info. So I emailed KATV but they were no help either.

Is anyone else experiencing this or aware of the problem? Is it just me? I have googled just about everything I can think of but can't come up with anything for this problem.

KATV is being relayed from KWBF-DT (ch 44) at this time. I've seen that same issue with E* but since I seldom watch KATV it isn't much of an issue since the rare occasions I can get KATV via KWBF-DT it looks wretched.

E*'s receivers strip out the station-provided guide data from the native PSIP and replaces it with with data supplied to E*. I remember when KTBS and E* were in their dispute that KTBS guide data wasn't displayed and instead said "Important Notice" (I was able to watch a NBA playoff game one evening via KTBS instead of KATV (via KWBF-DT) and this was how I discovered KTBS's lack of "listing" until they were restored to E*). I just wished the E* supplied Vip211 would allow me to squeeze the infamous stretchovision images from KWBF-DT 42-1, KTVE-DT 10-2 (radar), and TNT and friends.

Next time you contact them about it, tell them to contact Tribune Media Services to double check what the content really is. They should be able to find out that there is absolutely nothing wrong with KATV's lineup and that it is indeed their fault. Of course, you probably won't be able to convince them of this, but its worth a shot.

You know, now that you mention this, I wonder if my Dad is having this same problem. I believe he has the same receiver. I haven't heard anything from him about this, so I dunno. Will have to follow up with him.

Thanks for the suggestion. I actually just went ahead and sent an email to ceo@echostar.com as a last-ditch effort. I hate doing that but it's more about the principle of it now. This is my eighth time to contact Dish about the problem. Other than this I have been very happy with everything dish-related.

I did check out zap2it.com, via the TMS website, and looked at the TV listings for the local digital channels. Everything looks good, so as you mentioned earlier that's probably not the problem.

Last time I looked at the new KETS-DT setup on TSReader the primary channel was running about 9 mb/s on 2.1 and 4-5 mb/s each on 2.3 and 2.4
dmatch

Shouldn't look so bad. I record my 1080i movies with 10 mb/s average, allowing 13.5 mb/s peaks... Looks great on playback. I guess they need a statmuxer to allow for the higher peaks to keep it from "muddying up". Ill try a test recording tomorrow at 9 mb/s constant and see what it looks like.

I've only tuned into KETS-DT for a few minutes at a time the last few days, but I think they are upconverting 480i material. I say this because of the local content, such as "Traveling Arkansas" and "AETN Presents" are also 16 x 9. It doesn't look like stretchovision though, it looks blown up. Lower thirds are being cut off, and I've noticed this on network programming as well. It's like when they switch to HD at 5, they just upconvert everything, instead of switching to true HD when it's available.

KARK-DT, KATV-DT, KTHV-DT, and KLRT-DT are up this morning on DirecTV.

Kidding?????

OMG!!!!! He's not kidding!!!!! WOW!!!! YIPPIE!!!!

Oh, wait, only one of each channel. No 2-2, 2-3, 2-4, 11-2. Still a little Yippie! :) Ahh, according to their site explains a little why 2 doesn't have its sub-channels....2 isn't up as an HD yet. :)

KARK-DT, KATV-DT, KTHV-DT, and KLRT-DT are up this morning on DirecTV.

i noticed that too!!! gustav brought more than rain i guess...

any idea why are they not -1's?

Hmm, and I also wonder why ALL the channels weren't done?

All these are listed with only their SD channel numbers:
PBS KETS 2
IND KVTN 25
CW KASN 38
MNT KWBF 42
IND KKYK 49

Weren't they supposed to carry them all at launch? Or is it only after so long that they have to carry them all?