Little Rock, AR - HDTV [Text View] - Page 40

Davenlr

07-21-09, 11:13 PM

New member to the board here guys. I live in El Dorado, Ar.....apparantly I can not get locals here. I had directv a few years back when I was living close to Arkadelphia and got the Little Rock stations (which I want here in El Dorado....I don't care for the monroe-shreveport locals as I am not an LSU fan.) Any suggestions/help would be welcomed. Thanks.

Welcome aboard. You are way out of the OTA range of any of the Little Rock stations. You might be able to pick them up in the evenings. The best bet would be to check around electronics and TV dealers in the area, and see if anyone is picking up KASN 39, which would be the easist to pick up there. In any case, you will need at minimum, a Antennas Direct XG91 http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=AD-91XG or Televes DAT75, and a Channel Master 7777 amp. I wouldnt waste my time with VHF at all, from Little Rock, however, the 7777 has a VHF input for a second antenna, in case you want to pick up the local ones.

On TVFOOL, the LR stations are -15db, so you would need the Antenna/elevation to get the signal level up to 3 db at the antenna, and then the amps 2db nf would subtract from that, leaving you 1 db amplified to 26db to feed your cable. Its possible, if you happen to be in a high spot, can elevate the antenna, and dont have a lot of trees to block the signal. Worth a try, but if you are just looking for one specific thing, its possible its available of free satellite. All depends how much money you want to spend.

FWIW, I would think that KATV would probably be the easiest to pick up down there, of the Shinall Stations. You should be able to get KASN as as its 20 miles closer, at 88 miles (LR Shinall stations are 110 miles, almost DOUBLE the normal non-tropo UHF range), but you are also going over some relatively stable Tropo terrain (I can get KETZ about 3 nights a week here, and they are fairly low powered).

steveken

07-22-09, 04:01 PM

Aspect Ratio Roulette.

When comparing this afternoon's AETN 16:9 programming with KOZK's 16:9 programming, some of AETN's looked like they took 16:9 programming sent in letterboxed 4:3 SD format, and then zoomed it to 720p/16:9. KOZK's was much sharper. Still no cigar for AETN.

And yep, the AETN logo is definitely still FUBAR'd on the dash-1 channel... sticking halfway out of the 4:3 safe title area into the 16:9 frame. I wonder if they'll ever get things right.
Yeah, its still not perfect (obviously stretched cause the logo), but its definitely a big improvement in that things *look* right for the most part on the show itself. It might not be too sharp, but it does a good job.

steveken

07-22-09, 04:31 PM

Hmm, the AETN logo on "Word Girl" right now looks normal'ish to me. Definitely doesn't look stretched. I guess they are all the time switching the aspect ratio around, huh?

meathead76

07-22-09, 06:52 PM

ESPN Regional and the SEC have lined up an impressive list of affilates. Especially when you consider how many markets outside of the SEC states are onboard. Ever since the Big 12 moved the 11:30 game from syndication and to FSN and the Big 10 got out of syndication entirely to form their own cable/satellite channel, a lot of stations were probably clamoring for some football to show. There is enough national interest in SEC football for this to be a successful venture. The strength of the conference had to be the biggest selling point. Plus the SEC probably saw the trouble that the Big Ten Network had in getting the major cable companies to get on board during its first year.

Does this mean that KATV might put the Wednesday night basketball games that don't involve the Hogs on the RTV subchannel?Here's thew TV lineup for weeks 1 through 3

http://secsports.com/index.php?s=&url_channel_id=2&url_article_id=5905&url_subchannel_id=&change_well_id=2
I sure hope Directv adds CSS before the Hogs ever have a game on there

Davenlr

07-22-09, 07:28 PM

Here's thew TV lineup for weeks 1 through 3

http://secsports.com/index.php?s=&url_channel_id=2&url_article_id=5905&url_subchannel_id=&change_well_id=2
I sure hope Directv adds CSS before the Hogs ever have a game on there

Check channel 617 AND 617-1.

fly_daddy

07-22-09, 08:31 PM

Check channel 617 AND 617-1.

Didn't that used to be Fox College Sports (FCS). Has it changed?

fly

Davenlr

07-22-09, 08:48 PM

No, but according to the fox site, which I dont have a link for, they are supposed to be picking up lots of SEC games. The schedule posted above didnt appear to have CSS carrying lots of games, but I didnt look that closely.

In any case, unless the games are sold station by station, I would think the would be on Directv, since I believe they carry just about every available national sports network available.

If they are sold station by station, they would still be on directv unless the station chose to use a subchannel for them, which of course, would be in SD and require an antenna.

I might have misunderstood his request for CSS on directv. As I understood it, Comcast has exclusive rights to that channel, but I might be wrong there too, as Directv has picked up several other Comcast channels.

dmatch

07-22-09, 09:12 PM

dmatch:

When you get some free moments, could you capture me new TSReader data for whatever stations you can see? Now that the dust seems to have settled, I'm going to try to replace the old data with new data. Remember no EIT or Thumbnails. :)

Thanks!

- TripSent TSReader data via e-mail. Also, here are a couple of screen shots from KATV-DT2 (RTV). I believe you have screen shots for all the others.

dmatch

Trip in VA

07-22-09, 09:34 PM

Sent TSReader data via e-mail. Also, here are a couple of screen shots from KATV-DT2 (RTV). I believe you have screen shots for all the others.

dmatch

Thanks, I got 'em. I'm most glad to have them.

By the way, did you notice those strange ghost streams on KASN, KKAP, and KARZ? Are you running TSReader Lite or the full version? If Lite, do you have some other way of capturing a full stream?

Is there anyone who could capture a few seconds of raw bitstream from one of those stations? I'd prefer KKAP or KARZ over KASN.

I'll post the TSReader captures later tonight, I have some other matters to attend to right at the moment. I noticed these same streams showing up in Seattle, and I'm trying to confirm what they are. Might be something else I have to add to RabbitEars.

Thanks!

- Trip

dmatch

07-22-09, 09:58 PM

....Snip....Is there anyone who could capture a few seconds of raw bitstream from one of those stations? I'd prefer KKAP or KARZ over KASN. ... Snip ....

- TripYou're welcome Trip.

I think I have what you want. I have a full version of TSReader. I have recorded about 1 second of KARZ-DT using the Record MUX function. Do you want me to send it e-mail? It is about 3 MB.

I don't know what it means but those ghost streams (the ones around 1-2 mbps that are "unknown usage") are almost always red in TSReader.

dmatch

Trip in VA

07-22-09, 10:18 PM

You're welcome Trip.

I think I have what you want. I have a full version of TSReader. I have recorded about 1 second of KARZ-DT using the Record MUX function. Do you want me to send it e-mail? It is about 3 MB.

I don't know what it means but those ghost streams (the ones around 1-2 mbps that are "unknown usage") are almost always red in TSReader.

dmatch

Yes, please. I might ask you for a longer capture, but let's start small and see.

Red usually means encrypted. I'm hoping to pick something useful out of it though.

- Trip

Trip in VA

07-22-09, 10:42 PM

dmatch

Got your e-mail, and replied.

- Trip

RF Monkey

07-24-09, 06:58 AM

you folks are seeing (or not) "ghost pids". google "Sezmi" based in Belmont, California.

Davenlr

07-24-09, 07:24 AM

An Integrated OTA/3G/DSL pay service combining all the stuff I can get for free now...Ill pass. 3G in Little Rock isnt even fast enough to stream THV2 or Youtube videos in SD. Might appeal to those people that cant afford Satellite and Cable Internet, but I can already watch everything they claim to be offering, except the "private adult content" which I could always get from directv if so desired.

Will see what shakes out, but nothing new from the PCMag review, or their website that interests me.

Davenlr

07-25-09, 09:34 AM

Well, Saturday morning brought some road workers, a dump truck, and backhoe to the neighborhood to wake me up early, so checked some tropo. As usual, nothing from NWA at all. Two biggies, KTAL, and KSLA from the SW, Gospel ch 41 from just South of Memphis were coming in. Swung around toward Jonesboro, and have been monitoring that for about 30 minutes. Powerhouse (sic) VTN on channel 48 has been coming in with no breakups. Poor low power vhf KAIT has been trying and trying. Took 30 minutes to get a PSIP lock. I just cannot understand why these stations think they can get out better on VHF. KAIT needs to bite the bullet, and follow VTNs lead, and just go UHF with reduced power. Granted, my VHF yagi has 6 db less gain than my UHF yagi, but since its the highest gain VHF yagi available to consumers, that should mean the vhf stations would need to add 6db gain to whatever their UHF counterparts are using, and it seems its just the opposite.
MIA - KTWN again. Poof, not there anymore.

Davenlr

07-25-09, 11:55 AM

PBS up there is only running 50KW for UHF? AETN is pathetic. I always pick up VTN 48 when there is even a slight hint of skip. So you are saying, without tropo enhancement, such as at 2pm in the afternoon, you actually are getting KAIT better than you can get VTN? Thats interesting.

Davenlr

07-25-09, 12:47 PM

Well, AETN isnt going to get much funding, because frankly, no one is going to watch them, because they cant even remotely get their picture to look even close to what its supposed to look like. I know a couple of members who donate beside myself, and none of us are planning on renewing our memberships because of the God awful picture quality. Maybe all the kids who watch the cartoons and dont care if Barney gains weight one day, and looks like a beanpole the next, will donate.

AETN should just have stayed on channel 6, and used full legal power if they couldnt afford to do it right. At least on KETS, they did it right (height and power).

arxaw

07-25-09, 01:32 PM

dave,
Channel 6 is riddled with FM interference. Of the few stations that stayed on it, several are trying to vacate it. Also, high gain lowband VHF antennas are getting quite hard to find, except special order. Even RatShack is discontinuing their big all channel antennas.

Davenlr

07-25-09, 04:18 PM

Im just saying, KEMV would be better off full power channel 6 with their antenna already at the top of their tower, than running low power on channel 13 with a side mounted antenna, and WHBQ trashing their signal. In all reality, they should just throw in the towel and shut down. Right now, they are just wasting money, unless the majority of their donations are coming from people with old tube sets and converter boxes.

JT - They were off the air (KETS) for several months. They are back on now, on channel 7, with full power, and have a decent signal here in Central Arkansas, but their master control issues, and lack of HD, and time shifting and corrupting prime time shows, prevent me from even bothering to check their schedule anymore. I watch PBS via satellite in HD.

Trip in VA

07-27-09, 10:40 AM

I posted the new captures this morning. Here's the new data which contains those "ghost streams."

KKAP: http://www.rabbitears.info/screencaps/ar-lra/58267-0_0.htm
KASN: http://www.rabbitears.info/screencaps/ar-lra/41212-0_0.htm
KARZ: http://www.rabbitears.info/screencaps/ar-lra/37005-0_0.htm

I contacted the company that was mentioned and will hopefully be chatting with someone there on the phone at the end of the week to fill me in on what exactly is going on.

- Trip

jkoberg

07-28-09, 04:46 PM

Someone with some knowledge is responding to AETN's facebook page. In response to my plea that they carry PBS programming in original timeslot and format, they replied:

AETN currently offers three video streams: one HD (AETN-1) and two SD feeds (AETN Create/Kids and AETN Scholar). If a program is offered in HD via satellite and is scheduled at the time of airing, then it is broadcast in HD. If, for whatever reason, we record the program for playback within a 5 or 6 day window, then it is usually broadcast in HD. However, if we must record and hold the program longer, then it is recorded in standard definition due to lack of storage space on the server.

Your service provider may also be altering the picture size. We know both Dish and DirecTV are "center-cutting" our picture to fit a 4:3 screen. Cable companies tell us their customers would complain more about the borders around the picture than they would about some of the text being cut off. Until either all programs are produced in 16:9 or all... Read More cable companies and broadcasters have the necessary equipment to adjust the picture size, this will continue to be a problem. Due to limited bandwidth, we broadcast our HD in 720, not 1080. This is done to balance the quality of our signal and the quantity of programming streams we have to offer. When we began broadcasting in HD in January, we realized very quickly that the majority of our viewers prefer to have a wider selection of programming options than superior picture quality. We are trying to please our diverse group of viewers by balancing quality and quantity.

Tonight's NOVA and NOVA ScienceNow will both be aired in upconverted HD because of the lack of HD storage space. We recently received a grant that will allow us to expand our HD recording capabilities, so this is a good start for allowing us to broadcast more programs in HD, rather than upconverting them. If you have any other questions or concerns, please let us know.

steveken

07-28-09, 05:16 PM

Also, they said:

"AETN - Arkansas Educational Television Network
We do not have plans to move to a UHF frequency. There is not a tower in Arkansas to hold the necessary equipment to broadcast on a UHF. Also, the initial investment and operating costs to move to a UHF channel make this very unlikely. It costs roughly five times as much to broadcast on UHF than it does on VHF."

Umm, sorry, but there isn't a tower in Arkansas that can do UHF? Funny, there are many stations doing it now. Maybe they just didn't expand enough.

Trip in VA

07-28-09, 05:23 PM

I could be wrong about this, as I have no real knowledge, but shouldn't a UHF antenna be smaller and lighter than a VHF antenna anyway?

- Trip

steveken

07-28-09, 05:26 PM

I just think they are all full of feces and don't know what the heck they are talking about. I mean, bitching about not enough storage space? GO TO FRAKIN BEST BUY AND BUY BIGGER DRIVES!!! LOL I am sure there is more to it than that and that they are using antiquated equipment that requires specific setup or equipment. One would think that you could just swap out some drives with some 1.5TB or bigger drives to get it going. I want to follow them to see what other kinda garbage they say, but I don't want them to benefit from another follower. :)

Davenlr

07-28-09, 06:47 PM

arxaw

07-28-09, 06:57 PM

Until they increase the power of their flaky VHF transmitters, quit time shifting so much PBS programming and figure out WTF correct aspect ratios are, they won't get another dime from me.

arxaw

07-28-09, 07:27 PM

The cost to run UHF *is* more expensive for electricity, and thats only because UHF stations transmitters use more power, however, UHF antenna gains to make their ERP higher, is also greater.
Here's a comparison of two stations in Springfield:
CBS KOLR VHF ch 10 transmitter output power=2.31kW Effective Radiated Power=26kW
PBS KOZK UHF ch 23 transmitter output power=5.5kW Effective Radiated Power=100kW
It would be interesting to compare their electric bills.

At 70 miles out, KOZK is much easier to receive and is never affected by the weather. KOLR, on the other hand, is dropout city, during lightning anywhere in the region. Same for KAFT VHF 9, Winslow.

Davenlr

07-28-09, 07:46 PM

Most transmitters are run at class C, which has outputs about 50% of the input power. 5.5KW would use roughly 11KW input power. Its hard to translate into grid power usage, since its stepped up to the KV level in the finals. In any case, KEMV would probably propagate better by using the same exact power level they have now, on UHF, and making it up with a higher gain UHF antenna. That power is multiplied many times over by the fact most consumer UHF antennas designed for gain, offer 2X the power factor (3db) more gain than the best consumer high band VHF antenna.

If they dont believe it, watch VTN from Jonesboro. Ive logged them dozens of times on ch 48. Ive logged KAIT on vhf twice. (I cant get PBS due to a local analog low power).

If Happy Caldwell and his gospel crew can cover almost the entire state (NWA is missing from the puzzel) on UHF, then PBS with not only state funding, but viewer donations, shouldnt have a problem.

FWIW, I can get ch 26 from Hot Springs, which isnt that powerful or high up, just about 90% of the time here.

The FCC could fix the problem by letting vhf stations run 100kw, but then the stations cost savings in electricity would be moot.

steveken

07-28-09, 08:30 PM

Im laughting my butt off... If its within 5 days it will be in HD, but Nova and Nova Science Now tonight, delayed by one hour wont be, because of lack of server space? Get a clue and put WILD on at 9, and show Nova and NSN at the SAME TIME ILL BE WATCHING IT ON AMC21 IN 1080I HD.

Geeze. The cost to run UHF *is* more expensive for electricity, and thats only because UHF stations transmitters use more power, however, UHF antenna gains to make their ERP higher, is also greater. Allenf would be a good person to supply us with the cost differential between running VHF and UHF, since he has run both.
As for the tower, the UHF antenna CAN be larger and heavier than VHF, depends on the gain or each. In any case, any commercial tower could hold a uhf antenna...Especially KEMV, as a UHF antenna would be MUCH lighter than the ch 6 Bat Wing array on the tower now.

Directv center cuts because the dont carry AETN in HD, since AETN doesnt know what HD is yet.

AETN is just full of it. No more money from me.
You should go on Facebook and post that on their profile. I wonder what kinda response you would get from that.

EDIT: In fact, here is the link for there http://www.facebook.com/aetntv. PLEASE make a Facebook username and post this crap on their profile. Maybe if we prove to them that people around the state do know what they are talking about, they might fix stuff. I don't want to have to keep copying and pasting it on there just to get it up there.

Davenlr

07-28-09, 08:58 PM

Hehe. Hey, Astrospies in HD was awesome. How Russia and the US spent billions on whats now called Google Earth :)

jkoberg

07-28-09, 09:36 PM

Can anyone post a screen capture of original-quality 1080 NOVA program material, preferably with high-resolution details? I suspect the title screen (with stars) would probably be a good candidate for direct comparisons with down- and up-converted program material.

Thanks

Davenlr

07-28-09, 09:44 PM

Yea, Ill do that when NSN is over. Max size my server will allow is 1024x768, so both pics are going to be resized. PM me with your email, and I can send you the originals to compare.

PBS National HD 1080i - http://i26.tinypic.com/28hpo5i.jpg
AETN HD - 720p - http://i28.tinypic.com/16gapo4.jpg

arxaw

07-29-09, 09:53 AM

WLS gives up on VHF 7, petitions FCC to move to UHF channel 44.

See bottom of this page at Trip's site:
http://rabbitears.info/vhf.php

jkoberg

07-29-09, 10:29 AM

Well, I was hoping for something a bit more "busy", but thanks!

Joe

Davenlr

07-29-09, 11:44 AM

Well, I was hoping for something a bit more "busy", but thanks!

Joe

I have all the Nova shows stored in HD on my server. Tell me the arrox time into whatever episode you want, with a descrition, and Ill post it whatever screencap you want.

ad5kl

07-29-09, 01:17 PM

WLS gives up on VHF 7, petitions FCC to move to UHF channel 44.

See bottom of this page at Trip's site:
http://rabbitears.info/vhf.php

Wonder how long WMC Memphis will hang with 5?

Davenlr

07-29-09, 03:34 PM

At least Memphis is close enought to Jackson, they can always swing their antennas around. Bet both 5 and 13 go back to UHF. WKNO! who knows. Half of Memphis' stations are on VHF now.

jkoberg

07-29-09, 07:36 PM

How about one of these frames from the title sequence

http://www.jkk.us.s3.amazonaws.com/vlcsnap-12782040.jpg

http://www.jkk.us.s3.amazonaws.com/vlcsnap-12782108.jpg

Davenlr

07-29-09, 08:58 PM

http://i26.tinypic.com/2djp648.jpg

http://i27.tinypic.com/xkpth2.jpg

Arkyman

07-31-09, 12:46 AM

Did something interesting today. Some of you will remember a while back when I was trying to combine my Little Rock and Fort Smith antenna systems on one lead to my TV's atsc tuner. As you may recall, it did not work as certain channels cancelled each other out from both antennas. Also, both antennas have their own seperate CM7777 amps, so both leads coming out of the power supplies are "hot" so to speak. Well, I thought I'd try this experiment again since many of the interfereing channels were analogs that at the time were still up and running but now are dead. Wah lah....it works:D I combined both antenna leads from the power supplies to a regal 2-way splitter...3dB loss on each output and bam.....it works. I now get the LR and FS markets on one combined lead to the ATSC tuner. To say I am happy would be an understatement. The only problem I've noticed is that KARK, KATV and KTHV are all in the 70-73% signal strenght range after the combine where as they were all at 90% before. The FS stations dont seem to be suffering from any loss as they still are reading what they did before the merger. Just thought this was something some of you who can recieve two markets might try for yourselves. I decided to add two splitters into mine so I could feed my sonys atsc tuner and send a feed to the directv hd box. I noticed little to no loss as far as the signal reads. Here are the channels I now can enjoy on one input that was not possible before the analog shut down.:D:D:D

KETS 2.1 - .4 (7) LR
KARK 4.1 (32) LR
KATV 7.1 & .2 (22) LR
KTHV 11.1 & .2 (12) LR
KAFT 13.1 - .4 (9) FS
KLRT 16.1 & .2 (30) LR
KFSM 18.1 & 18.2 (18) FS
KKAP 36.1
KASN 38.1 (39) PB
KHBS 40.1 & .2 (21) FS
KARZ 42.1 (44) LR

BTW, my two most troublesome channels of the big boys is 2.1 and 13.1...both broadcasting on VHF.....think they'll ever figure it out?:rolleyes:

One other note. I'm watching The Incredible Hulk on 7.2 and it has much better PQ than some of the other older shows on that channel.

Davenlr

07-31-09, 12:55 AM

Glad its working out for you. Guess the analogs were overloading the amp. Digital seem to be much easier to receive even with multipath, if you have one of the newer tuners. I point my antenna at 215 degrees (Redfield is 175, and Shinall is 268), and get all the stations great at 90-100%, and get Hot Springs 26, as well as Texarkana's NBC, and Shreveport 12.1 (if memeory servers me, they are on channels 15 and 17), as well as KETG on 13. Havent tried adding in another antenna pointed toward Cabot for channel 18, as they were testing for a while, but havent seen any signal there for a while. Thats the only station I actually have to have the antenna pointed at to receive.

Arkyman

07-31-09, 01:37 AM

I often recieve KHBS 40.1 on my LR oriented antenna. Its very strong here, I almost get 100% when aimed at FS with the Winegard 8200. I purchased a new winegard 7698p about 10 days back and got it last friday. I intend on replacing the two combined antennas on my FS setup ( CM4228 and PR9032) with the 7698 when it cools down a bit more. I eventually may replace the 8200 with the smaller version as well, however the 8200 is only about 2 years old and still in great shape, I wont be replacing it until it develops problems which hopefully will be at least 8 more years.

Hey Dave, once before I tried combining the two antenna systems using a backward splitter up on the roof, then using only one down lead from the pre-amp . I wonder if this might actually work now and allow my LR stations to return to full signal strenght as well? I'm almost positive that the signal loss on the LR channels is due to both inputs being powered by seperate amps. I'm able to overcome it and get all the channels, however, if I was only using one amp, there would probably be no conflict to weaken each individual signal. What do you think? Plus it would clean up a lot of clutter behind my TV

arxaw

07-31-09, 09:48 AM

Arkyman

07-31-09, 01:29 PM

Arkyman, those Winegard 769x series antennas work really well. Did you have any trouble assembling the feedlines on the 7698? I've heard they can be difficult.

Is this how your double preamp setup was wired?
http://i26.tinypic.com/24g5dvd.jpg
I've used two 7777s connected like this before with 2 antennas and it worked fine. Combining multiple antennas is always a crap shoot, but like dave said, it's easier now, with newer tuners that ignore multipath.

If you take down the 4228 and ever want to sell it, give me a holler. They're still like gold up here.

They've got it figured out. They just don't care.

Yes arxaw, that is the correct wiring for my system. Before the analogs were shut down, it would not work with my two systems.

I have not assembled the 7698 yet, its still in the box in my shop. If its like the HD8200's lines were, they'll be a pain because you have to insert them just right into the snap in balun and you cant really see what your doing in such a small area. Once that is done, you must then bend the feed lines "Away" from the boom so they dont short the whole thing out. If you guys recall, when I first installed my 8200, the channels were not working. Turned out that a phase line was touching the boom. I bent it away and gave the other side some more distance away from the boom as well. It was the first Antenna I ever assembled where you had to adjust the phase lines. In the past I've mainly used Channel Masters and they always used the element type phase rods already fixed into their place unlike most other antennas that use the actual wire type phase lines.

If I cant find another application for the 4228 (looking like I wont need it)....it will be yours:)

steveken

07-31-09, 03:15 PM

If I cant find another application for the 4228 (looking like I wont need it)....it will be yours:)
Awww, damn. I was hoping I might be able to snag it off you. :) I seem to need a good antenna the worst of everyone on here. LOL

Arkyman

07-31-09, 04:34 PM

Awww, damn. I was hoping I might be able to snag it off you. :) I seem to need a good antenna the worst of everyone on here. LOL

If I had another one, you'd get it Steve. Unfortunately I only have one and Sam has been wanting it for a long time

Davenlr

07-31-09, 07:29 PM

I dont know if the single feed would work now or not. I have learned since your experiment, by reading various sites and forums on the subject, that the brand and type splitter/combiner can be a make/break. One report I recall reading was a gent that used a radio shack splitter combiner, and the system didnt work at all. Without any other changes, he swapped that for some esoteric and expensive combiner, and got everything without a snag. So, I guess the moral is, if you try it again, have several different brands/model splitter/combiners handy, and try several different ones. Another tidbit Ive read, is by all means, do not try to use a splitter backwards. Apparently if HAS to be rated as a combiner for this type arrangement to stand a chance. I dont know, thats just what Ive read. Lots of good links on http://tvdxseark.blogspot.com/

DX has sucked lately. Today, driving home, I was listening to Tom 106.7, and there was another station I couldnt identify, that would totally block it out when I topped hills. Got home, and immediately checked the TV for any DX, and other than the usual Gurdon and Texarkana stations, nothing...Was VERY odd.

Sam: Drove from Branson to Bentonville yesterday, and noticed that 53' semi that didnt do a very good job negotiating the 20mph corner on 62 just west of town. Bet it took a while to get that truck turned back over. I was so glad to see he rain stop. I think the rubber wore off my wipers yesterday.

haley-SEA

07-31-09, 09:28 PM

DX has sucked lately. Today, driving home, I was listening to Tom 106.7, and there was another station I couldnt identify, that would totally block it out when I topped hills. Got home, and immediately checked the TV for any DX, and other than the usual Gurdon and Texarkana stations, nothing...Was VERY odd..

I missed nearly all of Wednesday afternoon's opening (I was at work at its peak)-- 2 meters (144 Mhz) was open from Memphis and West Florida to New England. I had to settle for E's scraps from Canadian analog TV in Thunder Bay--CHFD channel 4 was booming in. Between last week's vacation, working this week, and getting DSL and home networking going there's been little time for "DX". E Skip season is pretty well done by late July/early August.

arxaw

08-01-09, 10:44 AM

...If I cant find another application for the 4228 (looking like I wont need it)....it will be yours:)Thanks! Just let me know if you decide to part with it and I'll come down the mtn & pick it up. Will send you a PM in a few minutes...

...Sam: Drove from Branson to Bentonville yesterday, and noticed that 53' semi that didnt do a very good job negotiating the 20mph corner on 62 just west of town...Was it West of Eureka? How far out of town? They must've dragged it out of there before I came through. The problem with the curvy roads is people go too fast. You can't take a semi through a 20mph curve at 55mph and expect to make it OK.

Davenlr

08-01-09, 12:31 PM

It was where that long driveway runs up the mountain thru a gate, off 62 going westbound west of town.

Davenlr

08-01-09, 01:37 PM

I see Allenf and the KATV crew has gotten their setup fixed on 7.2 RTN. No more KATV logo, and the horizontal dancing lines are gone. Looks great now. Congrats.

arxaw

08-01-09, 01:47 PM

Oh, "Martzmount." There's an old house up that long driveway that was originally built in the 1920s or 1930s by the Upjohn Pharmaceutical Company, as a retreat for their executives. I live on the ridge just East of there. Didn't see the semi off there, but not surprised. I did see a green F-150 off in the ditch there a couple of weeks ago. Usually it's somebody high on speed or alcohol or on the damned phone. And going two or three times over the posted speed.

Davenlr

08-01-09, 08:30 PM

Sam, what station (tv or fm?) is on that tower just to the south of 62 coming into Garfield? Looks like a TV tower, but might be FM.

Arkyman

08-03-09, 02:55 PM

Changed out my FS system last night. Removed the PR9032 and 4228 combo and installed the new 7698p. Now something very strange has occured. First, I seperated the two systems again, they are no longer joined anywhere, completely seperate. The LR antenna feeds the sony tuner while FS feeds the H20-100. KHBS 40.1 physical ch 21 and KAFT 13.1 physical ch. 9 are stronger than ever on the H20. However, KFSM 5.1 physical ch 18 does not even register on the H20's meter.....0%. I unhooked the FS feed from the H20 and plugged it into the sony a2020's atsc tuner and it pulled 18.1 in at 70%....but its a no show on the H20....not even a blip on the radar:confused: I've re-scanned several times and the H20 still finds nothing for channel 18. It is currently logged as 5.1 in the H20's memory. Not sure what I need to do here to find channel 18 or 5.1. My sony TV maps it as 18.1 while the H20 marks it as 5.1, dont know it that should really effect anything or not:confused::confused: I

Davenlr

08-03-09, 03:25 PM

Intead of scanning, reset OTA, then redo the initial setup and see if that fixes it.

dmatch

08-03-09, 04:49 PM

I see Allenf and the KATV crew has gotten their setup fixed on 7.2 RTN. No more KATV logo, and the horizontal dancing lines are gone. Looks great now. Congrats.Glad to see the "dancing lines" are gone too. Too bad the EPG is SNAFUed and doesn't match the programming. While the lineup in the EPG is the same as it used to be it appears RTV (or someone) has changed programming but not the EPG listings. For example "Rockford Files" is usually on now (3:00-4:00PM) but it appears "The Bold Ones" is on instead. On satellite AMC 9 Rockford Files is on as usual on the east feed.

EDIT: This link shows the schedule and is not the same as the EPG:

http://myretrotv.com/prog_schedules/KATV.pdf

dmatch

Arkyman

08-03-09, 07:29 PM

Intead of scanning, reset OTA, then redo the initial setup and see if that fixes it.

Didnt work.....I even reset the H20 completely then started over with the OTA section......mabye 5.1 is off the air right now.....if not...I dont know whats going on.:confused:

arxaw

08-03-09, 08:07 PM

Arkyman,
KFSM is on the air. I'm getting it 100% with only this (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077). It should map to 5-n on both TVs.

arxaw

08-03-09, 08:22 PM

Sam, what station (tv or fm?) is on that tower just to the south of 62 coming into Garfield? Looks like a TV tower, but might be FM.KNWA 50 (51-n) is at Garfield. KPBI 34 is there, too, but they are silent as of 6/12.
http://i25.tinypic.com/50isch.jpg
In the winter, I can see KNWA's tower lights. I can also receive it with a paper clip stuck in the TV's coax port :)

Arkyman

08-03-09, 08:41 PM

Arkyman,
KFSM is on the air. I'm getting it 100% with only this (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077). It should map to 5-n on both TVs.

Ok, this is weird. Last night when I swapped from the H20 to the sonys tuner, I went outside and lowered the 7698 back down. I then began to raise it while my wife watched and it started coming in on the TV's tuner. I then swapped it back to the H20 and got nothing. Starting to think something is up with the antenna or one of my connections. It was the jolt from raising and lowering that first produced a signal on the tv tuner. what I dont get is that I immeadiately swapped it back to the H20 and it showed no reception for 5.1. Also, why would 40.1 and 13.1 show up at 90% on both tuners but only the H20 does not show a signal for 5.1..........I'm stumped

Davenlr

08-03-09, 08:48 PM

That the model with the touchy complicated wires to connect the front and back half together?

Arkyman

08-03-09, 09:18 PM

That the model with the touchy complicated wires to connect the front and back half together?

yep. You have to insert the uhf end of the boom into the Vhf end and insert the phase wires from the uhf end into the onboard balun housing. It has pre drilled holes and guiders so I did get that part right. However, to finish it off, you have to insert the other half of the balun box which has a chipbard set up and 4 "U" joints that fit down onto each phase line. 2 on the far outsides which is the VHF phasers and then two in the middle which are the UHF phasers. The chipboard balun is designed so that when you snap it into place, each "U" joint sits right down onto a phase line. Trouble is, you can't see if the phase line and U joints are actually making a good connection, you just snap it into place and hope. I had the same setup on my HD8200 and didnt have a problem with it. Also, I did remember to give proper distance between the phase lines and boom. What stumps me the most is that last night it came in fine at 70% on my sony a2020 tuner. 20 seconds later on the H20 it doesnt even show a signal for 5.1...yet 40.1 and 13.1 are just as strong on the H20 signal meter as they were on the sony a2020..........the antenna Gods must reserve all these special problems for Arkyman.....:rolleyes: I really didnt want to lower it back down again because I have a wobbly ladder....I'm 250 and lowering and raising a rotor and and antenna that big from a laddere leaned up against the eave of your house can be real back breaker......looks like I may have no other choice....at this point I'm beginning to think I need to bring it back down and check the balun, phase lines/boom clearance and all connections.....the phase lines are easily bent....mabye I accidentally got on one when I was installing it last night

arxaw

08-03-09, 09:53 PM

I've heard the phase lines are tricky on the 7698. Good luck, I hope you find the problem.

Davenlr

08-03-09, 10:09 PM

Can you test it on the roof before raising it up, just to compare signal levels?

Arkyman

08-03-09, 10:52 PM

Can you test it on the roof before raising it up, just to compare signal levels?

I did that last night. It was bouncing between 59-65% and pixeling a lot when lowered to about 6 feet above the roof. When I pushed it up 10 more feet, it went to 70% and stoped pixeling. I had my wife watch the screen as I was raising it. I stopped numerous times. It became pretty clear that Higher was better with KFSM.......not so true with some of the other channels which seemed about the same at both heights. Thing is, KFSM locks when I plug the same feed line into the back of my tv......it wont work with the H20 box which is making me also have thoughts about something being wrong with the tuner in the H20

Davenlr

08-03-09, 11:11 PM

Arkyman

08-03-09, 11:39 PM

Thats totally possible. Ive never heard of one dropping just one channel though, while the rest work. Maybe your tv tuner is just that much more sensitive. The H20 is a pretty old tuner. Is it possible the length of coax from the antenna to the amp, or the power supply to the tuner might be creating a trap effect on channel 18? Any way to change the length easily? Or perhaps some tilt?

I think I may move the whole setup back to its old position. Last year I had it set up about 6 feet to the north of where it sets now against the west eave of my house. I locked 5, 13 and 40 all the time about 20 feet up at that location. Sometimes I even got bites on 24 and they have powered it up since then. I complained about losing 5.1 when I first move the setup 6 feet to the south...Sam said I could have fallen off the cliff by moving the setup......I'm starting to think he may have nailed it. I probably should go ahead and just move it back, that may be the majority of my problem. May do that tomorrow if I get a chance. thanks for all the help and if you happen to think of anything else, please let me know. I post back with my results:) I dont have any type of meters to work with except for my atsc tuners.....so its a long process for me to figure everything out, especially when I have to go on the roof, then back in the house and back and forth....gives the legs a good workout

Davenlr

08-03-09, 11:44 PM

That might do it, hope so. Of course, a 80' Rohn 45G tower wouldnt hurt either :)

Arkyman

08-04-09, 02:06 AM

Of course, a 80' Rohn 45G tower wouldnt hurt either :)

I wish:D

arxaw

08-04-09, 09:11 AM

Arkyman

08-04-09, 01:29 PM

The 7698 is very directional. How far off-axis of KFSM are you aiming? Also, your ideal azimuth may be different with this antenna. Ya never know out in the fringes.

Which H20 do you have? H20-100 (RCA) or H20-600 (LG). Open the access card door to see. There's a big difference in tuner sensitivity between the two.

I have the 100, however, it was locking 5.1 around 64% with the Winegard PR9032 before I took it down. I just plugged my coax into the sonys tuner and immediately 18.1/ 5.1 came in at 70%. In the past, if I could get 70% on one tuner, I could lock it on the other also. Starting to regret taking down my 9032/4228 combo now

Davenlr

08-04-09, 06:35 PM

Davenlr

08-04-09, 09:02 PM

While watching, and then researching tonights episode of Nova, I ran across this link, which has an Email subscription to New Nova, and other new science specials from PBS, which I thought I would share: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/schedule.html

Arkyman

08-04-09, 09:22 PM

What if you reverse the setup, and use the 7698 for Little Rock? Will the big monster pick up Ft Smith ok?

Reason I am asking, the 7698 has the same exact gain figures as the 8200U for VHF and UHF, sans the Low VHF band. The 9032 actually has 1.5 db gain MORE than either of the above, so that 1.5db loss might be the breaker on the H20 for channel 18.
Since the gain is the same as the 8200u, if you pointed THAT at Ft Smith, and it worked, then the problem would lie in the 7698, if neither work, then the 1.5db difference is your killer.

I can pick up 5.1 around 80% on the 8200.....I'm starting to think location is the difference. Plus, I just noticed something earlier. There is an elm tree with limbs and leaves hanging about 8 feet away from the antenna. That tree was not near that bushed out a couple of weeks ago......might be the tree starting to kill my sig......I probably need to move the FS system back to its original location and see what kind of difference it makes. It wont take long to move it over and it might solve several problems at once. My bro has a tree that is his LOS of LR. In the past he keep a few limbs trimed back and got a good signal. This year he didnt trim them back and now he has lost most of his signal....so I know a tree that is too close or in the LOS can cause signal loss...maybe mine has gotten too close as it is not fully grown and keeps getting bigger each year...its about 35 feet right now.

Davenlr

08-04-09, 09:28 PM

Good. Let us all know the results. I have no way to get my antennas above the trees. Ive noticed when the leaves are wet, it greatly affects the low power station on channel 18 here, or did, when they were on the air.

Arkyman

08-04-09, 11:47 PM

Thanks for all the help Dave and Sam....you guys are gold on here, I really appreciate both of you:)

arxaw

08-05-09, 09:07 AM

steveken

08-05-09, 04:06 PM

What is up with 2-1 and its choppy audio? Happening on two different TV's and my media center computer. Kinda annoying.

Arkyman

08-05-09, 04:52 PM

Arkyman, thanks. Of course, I've got a dog in this hunt :)

Once KFSM (& KAFT) double their power, those two stations should be a piece-o-cake for you.

According to a friend, KAFT's equipment should start being delivered to Winslow next week. KFSM is currently taking bids on equipment to double power.

Things look brighter for me with the power ups that are coming. I moved my ant back to its original location and there was a slight signal increase for 5. The H20 is now able to lock it off and on. Like you guys have said before, at my location, I'm just on the edge of the cliff for 5.1 and 24.1......guess I should have posted this in the FS forum....

dmatch

08-05-09, 09:25 PM

What is up with 2-1 and its choppy audio? Happening on two different TV's and my media center computer. Kinda annoying.
KARK and/or KARZ must have infected them:rolleyes:. It (bad audio) comes and goes like on KARK/KARZ, but I never noticed it until it started a week or so ago.

dmatch

Davenlr

08-05-09, 09:40 PM

Never noticed at on KARK. Only Liz Masseys microphone HUMMMMMM on KTHV. Since I dont watch KETS, Id not have noticed :)

ad5kl

08-06-09, 04:39 PM

Trip in VA

08-06-09, 04:52 PM

Glad you like it. I rather wish I could add more Arkansas stations, but I doubt AETN will be doing anything like that in the near future...

- Trip

ad5kl

08-06-09, 06:29 PM

When the dust settles & the money reality for stations sets in, I bet the VHF Nightmares section will become quite busy. It really would if the feds one day decide to sell off VHF Lo or later, VHF Hi. Lots of eager buyers (and needed bucks) out there.

Davenlr

08-06-09, 06:33 PM

Im pretty sure the FM broadcasters are really interested in channel 6 to expand their HD radio options, as well as in crowded metro areas that have a station on every frequency already. I myself would love to see channels 5 and 6 expanded to the FM broadcasters for a terrestrial based subscription service (like Sirius/XM for satellite). Commercial Free of course.

arxaw

08-06-09, 08:20 PM

Love that section on RabbitEars.info about the exodus of stations that found out the hard way that VHF digital sucks. Amazing how lots of stations losing revenue will get a normally lethargic FCC hopping. Awesome section there, Trip.That's my favorite part of Trip's site (http://rabbitears.info/vhf.php). I love how the VHF "oh, sh*t!" list keeps growing. :)

When TV started, there were very very few FM radio stations. With the now-crowded FM band, tropo/e-skip problems, impulse noise, large complicated antenna setups and poor or no indoor reception, the VHF band is a stupid place for any digital television station to remain.

steveken

08-06-09, 08:28 PM

OK, probably a dumb question, but does anyone on here know if DirecTV is doing SWM LNB's yet around here on new installs? I am asking because I went to the house today and saw that they have coax, phone, and network connections run. They only put 2 coax leads to the outside of the house. I figure one is going to be for Comcrap (damn I hope they have that run to that part of the street unlike the gas lines....long story) and the other is going to be for DirecTV. Just trying to figure out if I need to buy a http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=SL5-SWM myself, or if they will be able to provide one to me upon install. I really hope they can do it on install, but you can never tell. You certainly can't call DirecTV up and get a real answer from them about it. I don't suppose it will be too bad if I have to buy one myself, I just would rather know definitely before the install date so I don't have to be without anything for too long.

Davenlr

08-06-09, 08:37 PM

You will get what they have on the truck :) Now, if your house is prewired *AND* your splitters are compatable with SWM (cable splitters are not), then you might get an installer who goes for the easy hookup, vs running all new stuff.

You say there are two cables, one for DirecTv and One for cable. If they are parallel, i.e., both the same inside the house, then I would think they would install a SWM, if they have one on the truck.

In a case like yours, rather than have a dumb installer trying to run cables all over the house through walls, and such, I would just spend the $200 up front, go down to the 9000 block of West Markham street, and buy a SWMLINE5 Dish and LNB, and install it on a pole mount yourself (or get one of use to come aim it for you).

The big question is whether the splitters are compatable or not. They arent expensive, but if they are buried inside walls or inaccessable places, it might be a pain to swap them out with compatable ones.

steveken

08-06-09, 08:50 PM

You will get what they have on the truck :)

That is the answer I expected.

Now, if your house is prewired *AND* your splitters are compatable with SWM (cable splitters are not), then you might get an installer who goes for the easy hookup, vs running all new stuff.

Yes, the house is prewired. I made sure of that. There are no splitters what-so-ever in the house yet. Hell, the walls aren't even up yet inside.

You say there are two cables, one for DirecTv and One for cable. If they are parallel, i.e., both the same inside the house, then I would think they would install a SWM, if they have one on the truck.

That is what I was thinking which is why I was asking if they even carry them on the trucks around here yet. I am only saying one is going to be for Comcast because that is what I specified to be done. I also specified that there be 4 coax's run to the attic space for the dish to be installed on the roof, but we see where that got me. Both cables run from the outside wall to the utility/laundry room where I have all the phone, network, and coax's meeting together in the house. One simple access point for everything. I am really not sure why they ran all the phone lines there, or how they are going to hook them all together, but I assume that is something they know how to do.

In a case like yours, rather than have a dumb installer trying to run cables all over the house through walls, and such, I would just spend the $200 up front, go down to the 9000 block of West Markham street, and buy a SWMLINE5 Dish and LNB, and install it on a pole mount yourself (or get one of use to come aim it for you).

Like I said, all the cables are already run, so there isn't a problem there. I looked at the coax today and it is RG6. It felt like cheap RG6, but it was still RG6 nonetheless. I was just going to order the SWM 5 LNB directly from SolidSignal.com so I made sure I got the right thing and the right stuff that needs to go with it like the power inserter and the 8-way splitter that is DirecTV approved. I don't trust people around here.

Hell, the damn electricians can't even grasp what a network is. The jackasses put a network lead through the wall to the outside. Who in their right mind is going to put a network jack on the side of their fricken house???? Now I have to get ahold of the builder again to get him to run it up to my room for my xbox and computer and stuff like I wanted in the first place.

The big question is whether the splitters are compatable or not. They arent expensive, but if they are buried inside walls or inaccessable places, it might be a pain to swap them out with compatable ones.

Yeah, I know, thats why I am just going to buy a splitter from SolidSignal to get it done right the first time. That way, it can go into the wiring box I have in the utility room to keep it all nice and neat. (I thought of this accessible crap way ahead of time. hehehehe) If you wanna see pictures, and are on Facebook, hit me up on there for a friend add and you can see them all. I am at www.facebook.com/skendel. I am about to upload pics I took today of the cabling and the box for them all.

Davenlr

08-06-09, 09:04 PM

steveken

08-06-09, 09:31 PM

Ok, so you have everything run to a "media closet"? Thats the setup I am using. Then from there, everything spans out to each individual room. Phone lines are a no brainer. Get a Vonage box, plug it into your router/switch, and use a phone line block to connect them all together with the output of the Vonage Box. I love Vonage service. They have features I dont even know about, and their customer service is first class.

The System I got on West Markham, was a Slimline Dish, SWM5, DirecTv 8 port splitter, and power inserter, think I ran me about $180. Guy was very knowlegable (its a custom installer). Store had every DirecTv option available, all on display on multiple hi def monitors. Was really a nice store. Reason I bought locally was in case I needed help (was my first SWM install), they were available to come check to see if I had a bad component, or screwed up the install.

SWM from the Power Inserter in your media closet to the LNB, has to be RG6. From the splitter to the receivers work fine, even with 50' runs of RG59. It was designed to use old preexisting cable tv cable in apt buildings, so you wont have any problems. Just remember to user termination resistors on all unused splitter outlets (or on the end of cables not connected to a receiver, but connected to the splitter.

I guess you are going to use the other coax run to feed OTA from a 7777 amp through the house? Good move.
For a brand new construction, they better include the phone line block for me, but it isn't something we discussed. As it stands, its looking like I am going to have to put all the ends on all of the network cables myself. The electricians just do not strike me as people who could do it right.

The electricians are quite frankly pissing me off with how stupid they are when it comes to current stuff. They don't know networking, they don't understand that you have to have 2 coax runs to a place where you are wanting to use a DVR (assuming you are using a traditional LNB without the SWM technology in it), they just don't know a lot of stuff. Yeah, they may be able to run the electrical wires, but thats about it. On a new construction with people that want the better, non-1960 stuff in it, they just don't have a clue. :)

As for Vonage, I doubt I will be going back to them. For one thing, we don't use the home phone enough to justify paying for it AND cell phones. We seem to be doing okay with only cell phones right now. For another thing, their customer service really never impressed me much. I called a few times and they were somewhat helpful. What really turned me off was the pure hell I went through when trying to cancel it. It took 3 tries to do it.

I really wish there was a way to call DirecTV or Ironwood up to find out if they have SWM LNB's on their trucks, but I just may not wait to see. While I wouldn't mind buying all the stuff myself and doing it all myself, I want it to look fairly nice on the house when its done. Plus, DirecTV has that mover's connection where they are supposed to do it all for free. I just don't know what to do right now.

I don't think I am going to keep the power inserter in the box in the utility room. It's kinda big and that box isn't all that big in itself. I may just put it in my room behind my TV and let it run through the splitter that way. I am pretty sure that will work. There is NO RG59 in the house at all. New construction means newer cables (except for network where they use Cat5e instead of Cat6, but only because they use Cat5e on the phone lines). So, I don't think there is too awful of cable in there.

But, nah, if we get Comcast Internet, I am going to try to keep the filters off of it so I can use my Media Center computer again to get the ClearQAM channels that are on the line. I believe Windows 7 has the stuff in the media center software now to decode the ClearQAM stuff now, so thats going to be nice if it does.

I don't know if I wanna screw with OTA anymore if I can help it. If it turns out we can't get Comcast at the house (more than likely it would be because they haven't run cable under our part of the street yet since it is so new), I *might* stick the MANT outside somehow to get OTA. I just don't think I want to even try to bring up the subject of an OTA antenna again. :)

Arkyman

08-06-09, 09:36 PM

I'm not the high tech guy that many of you are, so I have a question about dB and noise from pre-amps. I've been reading about NM (noise margin) at tvfool...thanks to Sam for the link. How much signal loss will I have on a 75 foot run of RG11 from the Antenna to the TV? Is the loss in the cable going to be greater or less than the loss created by the VHF 2.8 dB and UHF 2.0 dB noise figure on the CM7777 pre-amp? If I read correctly, if you use a pre-amp, you suffer a certain amount of dB loss at the connection point, but really dont lose anything from pre-amp on to the tv, another words....preamps were really only designed to overcome the dB loss in long cable runs and only to be used in installations where the dB loss in the cable run will be greater than the loss the amp will produce..is that correct? If this is true, and my dB loss would be less by just accepting the cable run and eliminating the amp....is is possible that even out here on the fringe, I possibly could get better reception without the amp?

Now, with that said, I've always been under the belief that a pre-amp was a must at my fringe location. I think one of the problems I could see by eliminating the pre-amp is that some of the weaker or weakest channels would be lost in the process....still if the loss would be less without the amp, it seems that even the weak channels should come in slightly stronger than before. However, I've tried "NOT" using an amp in the past and with very little success. I think KTHV 11.1 was the only channel I could actually pick up without an amp the last time I tried it and it was only about 59% without the amp in line and with the amp I get lots of channels, even 38.1 which list me as tropo all the time at around 83 miles LOS. So whats the deal with the NM value? Is it really dependable and applicable to all situations and locations? From what I've personally seen at my location..the NM factor goes completely against everything I see as reality with my setups. Just curious to get some of you gurus thoughts and maybe some of your experiences with odd situations where something such as the NM says one thing should happen, but when you actually put it to the test in the field, you see or have seen completely opposite and contradicting results.

BTW, I did read about how you can get info on how much dB is arriving at your location for each individual station. Then add your antenna gain to the arriving signal, then subtract the total dB loss in the rest of the system from the sum of the antenna and arriving dB... if you still end up with 0 dB or above, you should have a usable or lockable signal while anything below zero such as -1 dB is going to be real trouble and is probably not usable at your location. I've been trying to figure out why I have been so unsuccessful at locking KFTA 24.1 and KFSM 18.1 on the Ft. Smith side....Sams been trying to help me figure it out

Davenlr

08-06-09, 09:37 PM

If you are using the movers connection, I can guarantee you will NOT get SWM. Its for new customer installs only. Has been covered in several threads on DBStalk.

steveken

08-06-09, 09:47 PM

If you are using the movers connection, I can guarantee you will NOT get SWM. Its for new customer installs only. Has been covered in several threads on DBStalk.
And we are certain that is STILL the case?? I mean, I was just thinking that we still might be able to get it, or if not by DirecTV being nice, maybe by talking the guy into hooking me up?? I've been known to get those long drill bits, the helper tubes for feeding coax through a wall, half spools of Cat5e, and stuff like that in the past by talking to the installer just right. :) If it is most definitely NOT going to happen, then I guess I just need to go ahead and suck it up and buy it.

Davenlr

08-06-09, 09:52 PM

You will have more than 2.5db loss from any cable run on UHF, unless its REALLY short. The connectors alone are good for .5 db.

To figure its out, start with the antenna gain. Subtract the loss from the balun (usually 2 db unless its a solid state balun like Winegard uses, then the loss is already calculated into the antenna gain figures they supply). Subtract the noise factor from the amp. Thats your net gain. From that figure, add the gain of the amp. Then subtract the loss from coax runs and splitters on the tv end. If you end up greater than the original, you are gold.

Ch 18, your antenna, 14.5db, - amp nf = 12 db, + amp gain = 37 db, minus cable loss??, minus splitters???. If your receiver then gets over about 3 db, you will get the station. If you dont, your antenna isnt capturing enough signal to keep the level above 3db in the chain.

Example, your KFSM field strength is -13. Add antenna gain to get +1. Subtract the amps NF, and you are below the noise floor, so any gain in the amp is only going to raise the noise floor WITH the signal, and you wont be able to pick it up. You would then need to have an antenna with 2DB more gain, so after the amp, the signal would be above 0.

Removing the amp, and you get what the antenna gets, minus the coax loss, without the benefit of the added gain to overcome the coax.

Amps work great as long as the signal is high enough at the amp input to overcome the amps noise factor and still provide a positive DB level to the amp board. If the noise and signal are very close, then you wont have very good results. The only way I would ever remove a good amp, was if there was a FM or TV station nearby that cause it to overload. RG11 vs RG6 probably would make a difference from the antenna to the amp, but I doubt it would make any difference at all on the downlead, since unless your cable loss is greater than the amps gain (very doubtful), the signal was not there to begin with.

hagios

08-06-09, 09:59 PM

Davenlr

08-06-09, 10:00 PM

Another thing I didnt mention...If the receiver has a weak AGC (front end), it might require a stronger signal to lock, in which case, the amplifiers gain (which actually replaces the receivers AGC function) would cause said receiver to pick up a station it ordinarily wouldnt be able to lock. Being most of us have cheap receivers (vs the commercial ones), the amp which technically doesnt increase the signal, but simply stair steps the Signal + noise to higher level to over come cable loss can actually seem to be making the signal stronger.

steveken

08-06-09, 10:02 PM

Davenlr

08-06-09, 10:07 PM

hey guys. I'm new to Little Rock. Just moved here on Monday from New Orleans. Loved AVSForum there and hoping you guys can provide some help...

Hi. You must be the guy I met at Radio Shack today. Welcome. First step, see if there is any signal available at your location. The PBS station transmits on channel 7. Try extending the VHF rods on your antenna to 18" each, and put them horizonally, and rotate the antenna and see if you get any signal on your meter at all. If not, you may have to move around the apt some with it (try windows, etc). If you can find a spot that works, you can always extend the cable on the antenna with a good quality extension cable and barrel connector. Let us know if you are getting any signal on channel 7.
PBS is about average power, and above average height for a VHF channel. If you dont have any luck, you may need a small 3 element directional antenna you could hide in a closet.

Does the antenna you bought at Radio Shack have a built in amp? If so, try different amp settings. ANY NOISE at all in the area, is going to block a weak signal, so try with the amp at minimum setting at first.

Dave

Davenlr

08-06-09, 10:08 PM

Go take it back, go to Wal-Mart and buy a Philips MANT910. It works pretty well for me (I am basically around the corner from you) and can be indoors or outdoors. Its also small enough that you can probably hide it if you stick it outside like behind a plant or something.

MANT is UHF only. It wont pick up channel 7 here at my house, and I am LOS to Redfield. If he wants to try it though, Ill let him try mine, since its just sitting in the box on my spare parts shelf.

steveken

08-06-09, 10:11 PM

Hi. You must be the guy I met at Radio Shack today. Welcome. First step, see if there is any signal available at your location. The PBS station transmits on channel 7. Try extending the VHF rods on your antenna to 18" each, and put them horizonally, and rotate the antenna and see if you get any signal on your meter at all. If not, you may have to move around the apt some with it (try windows, etc). If you can find a spot that works, you can always extend the cable on the antenna with a good quality extension cable and barrel connector. Let us know if you are getting any signal on channel 7.
PBS is about average power, and above average height for a VHF channel. If you dont have any luck, you may need a small 3 element directional antenna you could hide in a closet.

Does the antenna you bought at Radio Shack have a built in amp? If so, try different amp settings. ANY NOISE at all in the area, is going to block a weak signal, so try with the amp at minimum setting at first.

Dave
But, what about a MANT910? We both determined that it does a pretty damn good job and is very very small compared to other antennas out there. Shouldn't he give that a shot too? Its only $38.

EDIT: I see you addressed that. It WILL pick up channel 7 here in our area. Remember, I am right around the corner (for now) from this guy. I have a pretty good basis on determining whether it will probably work or not. It is working WONDERFULLY here on my setup. :)

Davenlr

08-06-09, 10:14 PM

Thought you had it outside?

steveken

08-06-09, 10:17 PM

Thought you had it outside?
Well, yes, I do, but depending on height, positioning within the apartment, and orientation of the antenna, it can work indoors as well. All depends on that old real estate addage......Location, Location, Location. :) It never hurts to try. Since you aren't using yours, he could very cheaply figure out if it will work for him. If it does, then he can pay you an open box price for yours. heheheheh

hagios

08-06-09, 10:20 PM

But, what about a MANT910? We both determined that it does a pretty damn good job and is very very small compared to other antennas out there. Shouldn't he give that a shot too? Its only $38.

EDIT: I see you addressed that. It WILL pick up channel 7 here in our area. Remember, I am right around the corner (for now) from this guy. I have a pretty good basis on determining whether it will probably work or not. It is working WONDERFULLY here on my setup. :)

man. greatness. what quick responses.

anyway, I have tried a couple of different antennas already, some with amps, some without. I have been able to get some signal strength...usually in the 20s. I used a long coax cable to get the antenna out on my balcony and I was able to get up to around the 50s but that's still not good enough to get a picture. that made be skeptical of whether or not it is even possible of picking it up.

I will try the MANT910, steveken. Hearing that you have made it work with an indoor antenna near me is very encouraging.

One thing I'm not used to [being from new orleans] is hills. I'm guessing that can really affect the signal!? If you are in certain spots in the city, could you just be screwed?

Arkyman

08-06-09, 10:21 PM

Thank you Dave:D I already understand much better than I did before. I put my antenna height in at 23 feet and it list these figures for my location

Overlays off
Predicted Channel Availability (Current)
Analog Digital
Callsign Chan Network Dist
(mi) Path NM
(dB)
KRAH-CA 60 14.2 LOS 30.7

Callsign Chan Network Dist
(mi) Path NM
(dB)
KTHV-DT 12 (11.1) CBS 57.2 2Edge 0.0
KHBS-DT 21 (40.1) ABC 69.7 2Edge -3.8
KAFT 9 (13.1) PBS 60.0 2Edge -3.9
KFSM-TV 18 (5.1) CBS 65.1 2Edge -10.3
KARK-DT 32 (4.1) NBC 57.2 2Edge -11.4
KARZ-DT 44 (42.1) 57.2 2Edge -13.6
KFTA-DT 27 (24.1) Fox 58.0 2Edge -14.9
KKAP 36 (36.1) Ind 57.4 2Edge -15.1
KOET-DT 31 (3.1) PBS 107.2 Tropo -18.2
KATV 22 (7.1) ABC 57.8 2Edge -19.0

Davenlr

08-06-09, 10:25 PM

steveken

08-06-09, 10:28 PM

man. greatness. what quick responses.

anyway, I have tried a couple of different antennas already, some with amps, some without. I have been able to get some signal strength...usually in the 20s. I used a long coax cable to get the antenna out on my balcony and I was able to get up to around the 50s but that's still not good enough to get a picture. that made be skeptical of whether or not it is even possible of picking it up.

I will try the MANT910, steveken. Hearing that you have made it work with an indoor antenna near me is very encouraging.

One thing I'm not used to [being from new orleans] is hills. I'm guessing that can really affect the signal!? If you are in certain spots in the city, could you just be screwed?
Yes, hills are a bitch. :)

Now, keep in mind, when I did have the MANT910 indoors, 7 was off the air. Put it up high on the wall, it might. Also, keep in mind, that same MANT910 was able to pick up Monroe/El Dorado stations while inside the house as well. That was only because of atmospheric ducting, but it still goes to show that this little antenna does a hell of a job that you would only expect from a big outdoor antenna with a hell of an amp on it. I have a pair of non-amplified rabbit ears on my sons wall right now picking up EVERYTHING just fine. Great strengths.

All I can say is give it a shot. Just keep trying different spots and heights if you don't get it at first. There is ALWAYS a sweet spot where you can get it.

Arkyman

08-06-09, 10:29 PM

[QUOTE=Davenlr;16957634]

Example, your KFSM field strength is -13. Add antenna gain to get +1. Subtract the amps NF, and you are below the noise floor, so any gain in the amp is only going to raise the noise floor WITH the signal, and you wont be able to pick it up. You would then need to have an antenna with 2DB more gain, so after the amp, the signal would be above 0.

You made a great point the other day Dave. The PR9032 I removed actually had 1.5 dB more gain than the 7698.....even with the 9032 I had drop outs on 18.1.......hard to believe my new antenna is what actually killed my signal from KFSM....but it looks to be the case:(....oh well, Sam said KFSM was doubling power....dont know how long it will be, but when they do I should lock it with no problems then:D

Davenlr

08-06-09, 10:31 PM

Yea, if they double ERP, it will raise your signal 3db. If they actually double the POWER, then it will increase quite a bit more. Put the 9032 on the pole under the new antenna, and use the 7777 to combine them :)

Arkyman

08-06-09, 10:37 PM

KATV is wrong for sure, they are much stronger than KARZ, at least in all the measurements Ive seen. I dont understand why you cant get KFSM if they are -10.3 tho, unless those signal levels are incorrect. According to those numbers, you should not be getting KATV, KKAP, KFTA, or KARZ.

-10.3 + 14.3 = 4.3 - 2.5 = 1.8. Thats less than 3 db, so its marginal. Thats why your 903x got it. Add 1.5 db for that antenna to the 1.8, and you have 3.3, above the magic number.

I get KATV and KARZ in the 90 percentile range always. Now, KFTA 24.1....I cannot get...if KKAP is ch 20 analog...I get it but its pretty snowy. I think magazine mountain ( 5 miles west)is really a thorn in my side with some of the NWA signals originating from the Winslow area....when I "Make Radar Plot" at tv fool...some of the channels are saying I'm in the white area which means I should not be able to pick up their signal. However, some of the LR stations like KARK show me in the white area also because of Danville mountain which is 5 miles to my east. Now, KHBS 40.1 from Poteau OK...it doesnt have to really deal with Magazine Mountain like the othe NWA stations and I recieve it at 98% on the 7698....also getting KAFT 13.1 at 98%.... Another problem I've noticed with the 7698 is it seems to be much more directional than the 9032 was.....which is not good for me

Davenlr

08-06-09, 10:46 PM

Arkyman

08-06-09, 10:53 PM

Yea, and thats contrary to the solid signal beamwidth, which If I recall, was 40 degrees. I didnt know KHBS was from Poteau. They must be up on top of that big mountain which sticks up out of nowhere. Pretty area there. I have a customer there I call on occasionally. Hell, just run a coax up to Danville Mt :) KKAP is digital ch 36.

What kind of success do you think I might have by combining the 7698 with the 9032? What spacing would be proper for such a set up? I guess the best thing to start off with would be equal coax lengths (6ft) then into a reversed regal splitter then to the amp....however, my margin on 18 is already so low.....combining the two antenna's then adding a splitter with 3dB loss before the amp might result in more trouble than I currently have.......think its worth a shot? Do you for see any problems that would suggest to not even try it?

Davenlr

08-06-09, 10:56 PM

Cant you just run the new antenna into the vhf port, and the 9032 into the uhf port on the 7777 and run it that way until they up the power? Spacing would be a wavelength at the lowest frequency you get, so that would be channel 13? A couple feet should do it.

Im sitting here watching KTAL from Texarkana right now :) Keep searching for a HD newscast.

Trip in VA

08-06-09, 11:05 PM

Can anyone confirm the presence of "Tuff TV" on KKYK?

- Trip

Davenlr

08-06-09, 11:08 PM

Yep, TUFF TV it is

Trip in VA

08-06-09, 11:12 PM

Thanks. As far as I know, it's the only affiliate so far.

- Trip

Davenlr

08-06-09, 11:16 PM

Figures, since its a joint venture with Luken from RTN. Wonder if they are using the Equity uplink facility. I moved my dish off Equitys sat when they went under. From HENRY at http://www.gofastmotorsports.com :
TUFF-TV now on KU
Equity mux

G18 @123W
11800 V 26657

06-KKYK

This station was a THIS-TV affiliate, now a TUFF-TV affiliate.
Interesting for those who have not seen the TUFF-TV C-Band feed, or have KU only.

Arkyman

08-06-09, 11:18 PM

Here is my TV signal Analysis results.

KHBS 40.1 LOS 69.7 miles. NM -4..... PWR -94.9.....2 Edge at 269 degrees

KFSM 18.1 LOS 65.1 miles. NM -10.8.....PWR -101.6.....2 Edge at 322 degrees

KFTA 24.1 LOS 58 miles. NM -15.3.....PWR -106.2 2 Edge at 318 degrees

KAFT 13.1 LOS 60 Miles. NM -5.2.....PWR -96.1.....2 Edge at 327 degrees

And check these babies from LR and PB out.....

KLRT 16.1 LOS 57.6 miles. NM -19.4.....PWR -110.2.....2 Edge at 111 degrees

and my trophy deer....

KASN 38.1 LOS 82.7 Miles. NM -35.5.....PWR -126.3.....( T R O P O ) at 123 degrees......I lock 38.1 all the time at 76-84%....have been since 2003 :D

Davenlr

08-06-09, 11:20 PM

Obviously, TVFOOL is a FOOL way out in your neighborhood :)

Arkyman

08-06-09, 11:22 PM

[QUOTE=Davenlr;16957946]Cant you just run the new antenna into the vhf port, and the 9032 into the uhf port on the 7777 and run it that way until they up the power? Spacing would be a wavelength at the lowest frequency you get, so that would be channel 13? A couple feet should do it.

....oh yeah...dumb me:o......I'm thinking so hard that I'm complicating things now.....sorry Dave....thats actually what I meant to begin with.....I dont know where my splitter idea came from....I guess for a moment I forgot that the 7777 can be used as a double input for seperate vhf/Uhf:o

Davenlr

08-06-09, 11:24 PM

Get some sleep :) Let me know how it works tomorrow hahahahaha.

Arkyman

08-06-09, 11:30 PM

Obviously, TVFOOL is a FOOL way out in your neighborhood :)

Ha ha....you got me to laughing on that one:) You know, just about everyone I know in my area gets KLRT, KASN and many other channels that the fool says we should not. Makes you wonder where they get their info....it also exposes that at least some of their info is just speculation based on numbers.

BTW, Kets 2.1 is very unstable here. When they first powered up, I was getting about 80%.....now its in the 59-70% range and it really jumps around....its really not dependable if your watching a 30 minute show because it will guranteed drop out at least 10 minutes of that:rolleyes:

Davenlr

08-06-09, 11:32 PM

Yea, but why would you want to, when you can get 13?

Davenlr

08-06-09, 11:54 PM

I just made a quad loop for channel 7, fed it to a 4:1 balun (really should be a 1:1 tho), and hung it in my south window, plugged in my portable tv using a 20' length of coax, and picked up all the LR stations, full lock. Go figure. A $2 antenna. Voodoo science, this OTA is. I was trying to come up with something with a little gain he could use on his balcony to get KETS. Think this might do it, and save him $38.

Arkyman

08-07-09, 12:02 AM

Yea, but why would you want to, when you can get 13?

Just for convienence I suppose. I have my LR system hooked up to the ATSC tuner on the sony and the FS thru the H20....what can I say Dave.....I'm greedy:p

Davenlr

08-07-09, 12:03 AM

haley-SEA

08-07-09, 02:38 AM

TUFF TV - http://i32.tinypic.com/2nsp95d.jpg

Now I know whats going on. Unreliable Sources...that guy just HAS to be on tv. Guess since RTN wouldnt let him on, he started his own network to get on. http://i31.tinypic.com/352nio2.jpg

The more things change, the more they remain the same. Very true with KKYK and other Little Rock media.

arxaw

08-07-09, 09:47 AM

Yea, if they double ERP, it will raise your signal 3db. If they actually double the POWER, then it will increase quite a bit more...Dave, they are doubling ERP.

@ Arkyman,
On your TVFool input, did you use the draggable map icon? It's usually more accurate out in the fringes.
Enter address or coordinates here (http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=90).
On the results page, enter your antenna height below the map.
Zoom in on your house (with the satellite map option) and drag-drop the red dot onto your house.
Above the map to the right, click "Make Radar Plot"
A "share results" link in bold text will be on the next page. Copy & paste it back here. Your address or coordinates will not be shown.

Even with the map option, TVFool is not always accurate. For example, in our area, I've seen it show fair reception of all Fayetteville channels and no reception of Springfield channels. After installing an antenna, the exact opposite was the case - the person could get all Springfield and no Fayetteville (except KNWA, which everyone can get here). The hills can really make it a signal feast. Or famine.

arxaw

08-07-09, 10:01 AM

hey guys. I'm new to Little Rock. Just moved here on Monday from New Orleans. Loved AVSForum there and hoping you guys can provide some help...

I'm living in an apartment right off of Chenal and W. Markham. I am attempting to go completely OTA using some type of indoor antenna (outdoor isn't an option b/c it's an apartment).

Looks like the local PBS affliate (2.1-4) is like 20 miles out of the city. What's up with that? Welcome to the LR board. And yes, hills can really affect reception.

KETS 2-n is on VHF channel 7. VHF is often difficult to pick up with an indoor antenna if you're any distance from the transmitter. It doesn't travel through walls as easily as the shorter wavelength UHF band, and is more prone to electrical and other interference. If you recall, reception difficulties are one of the reasons NOLA's WVUE ran from VHF, like a cockroach when the kitchen light came on. It's just too hard to receive.

All you can do is try different VHF antennas. As close as you are to the other stations on Shinall Mountain, it may not matter what antenna you use for those. Just don't try an amplified antenna. They usually make matters worse, especially on VHF. Living so close to several powerful FM radio stations, you may also need an FM trap to filter out FM interference. Many FM stations generate harmonic radio waves that are right smack dab in the VHF high band where KETS is broadcasting.

VHF is a stoopid place for TV to be these days. Most stations knew this and abandoned it for good reason.

Arkyman

08-07-09, 01:32 PM

Here is the signal analysis results for my location...thanks for the instructions Sam

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d4d77225a949f22

steveken

08-07-09, 02:36 PM

Welcome to the LR board. And yes, hills can really affect reception.

KETS 2-n is on VHF channel 7. VHF is often difficult to pick up with an indoor antenna if you're any distance from the transmitter. It doesn't travel through walls as easily as the shorter wavelength UHF band, and is more prone to electrical and other interference. If you recall, reception difficulties are one of the reasons NOLA's WVUE ran from VHF, like a cockroach when the kitchen light came on. It's just too hard to receive.

All you can do is try different VHF antennas. As close as you are to the other stations on Shinall Mountain, it may not matter what antenna you use for those. Just don't try an amplified antenna. They usually make matters worse, especially on VHF. Living so close to several powerful FM radio stations, you may also need an FM trap to filter out FM interference. Many FM stations generate harmonic radio waves that are right smack dab in the VHF high band where KETS is broadcasting.

VHF is a stoopid place for TV to be these days. Most stations knew this and abandoned it for good reason.
Here is the report for my new location when I move.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dd41d84643a83d9
Looks like I should be good to go I think on the ones that matter. KASN and KETS still show 1Edge for me, but I figure if I am picking them up fine now, I should be able to pick them up fine when I move about 10 miles closer to them. :)

As far as your recommendations on using an amplified antenna, while in theory what you say is accurate, I can promise you that over here where we are you still HAVE to have it amplified most of the time even though you really shouldn't have to. I have tried many many unamplified rabbit ears, loops, and stuff with no luck at all. It wasn't until I got this MANT910 that things started working for me. The only place in this entire house that works off of just plain ol' rabbit ears is on the east wall of the house in my sons room. Any other spot in the house and you are S.O.L. when it comes to OTA TV. I am not trying to argue with you about it or anything, just reminding you of all the crap I went through trying to get OTA working here and what finally worked.

Also, remember, he is at Chenal & W. Markham. I am at Kanis & Bowman which is less than a mile as the crow flies from him. It is basically around a couple of corners from him. We are pretty much in exactly the same situation as far as distance from the towers go except for he is in an apartment while I am not.

hagios

08-07-09, 03:31 PM

throwing down the WVUE reference. nice. yeah, hopefully other stations around the country will follow their lead.

Just some context, in case anyone is interested, WVUE is the Fox affiliate in New Orleans. Before the transition, their digitial/HD antenna was on a UHF frequency and their analog was on a VHF. When the transition went down, they shut down their UHF antenna and switched the digital signal to the larger VHF antenna. Once they did that, lots of people in the fringes could no longer pick up their feed. So they recently petitioned the FCC to switch their signal back to the smaller UHF antenna. Right now they are being allowed to broadcast their digital feed on both antennaes until the figure out what works best.

I'll keep trying. Surely I can make this work! I'm headed over to Davenlr's tonight to pick up the antenna he offered. awesome. thanks to all for the help.

Welcome to the LR board. And yes, hills can really affect reception.

KETS 2-n is on VHF channel 7. VHF is often difficult to pick up with an indoor antenna if you're any distance from the transmitter. It doesn't travel through walls as easily as the shorter wavelength UHF band, and is more prone to electrical and other interference. If you recall, reception difficulties are one of the reasons NOLA's WVUE ran from VHF, like a cockroach when the kitchen light came on. It's just too hard to receive.

All you can do is try different VHF antennas. As close as you are to the other stations on Shinall Mountain, it may not matter what antenna you use for those. Just don't try an amplified antenna. They usually make matters worse, especially on VHF. Living so close to several powerful FM radio stations, you may also need an FM trap to filter out FM interference. Many FM stations generate harmonic radio waves that are right smack dab in the VHF high band where KETS is broadcasting.

VHF is a stoopid place for TV to be these days. Most stations knew this and abandoned it for good reason.

arxaw

08-07-09, 04:06 PM

Here is the signal analysis results for my location...thanks for the instructions Sam

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d4d77225a949f22Arkyman,
You're lucky to get many of the stations you're getting. I would not think KFTA (fox/nbc) would be reliably received, even if you could get a blip of it when the wind's right.

Here is the report for my new location when I move.
[B]http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3dd41d84643a83d9Looks like one of these (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077) in the attic should suffice. Unless, of course, your new home has radiant roof barrier, metal roof or foil backed insulation in the walls. Things I would insist on having, if building a new home, BTW.

steveken

08-07-09, 04:47 PM

Unless, of course, your new home has radiant roof barrier, metal roof or foil backed insulation in the walls. Things I would insist on having, if building a new home, BTW.
I don't know anything about the insulation other than the outer walls have blown cellulose insulation. The builder said it has a high R rating. Don't know about the roof. Guess I can ask when the time comes closer for that.

Arkyman

08-07-09, 05:06 PM

Did some extensive work and came up with these figures as usable/unusable signal dB. This is based on the gain chart per channel of the Winegard 7698p

( Little Rock Market )

KARK ( NM -10 dB ) + ( 13.7 dB gain for ch 32 ) = ( 3.7dB ) + ( -2dB Amp loss UHF side ) = ( 1.7 dB of usable signal ) I lock at 90%

KARZ = ( NM -2.1 dB ) I lock at 90%...according to these figures..I shouldnt

KATV = ( NM -7.0 dB ) I lock 90%

KLRT = ( NM -9.65 dB ) I lock 76%

KETS = ( NM -21.5 dB ) + ( 10.4 dB gain for ch 7 ) = ( -11.1 dB ) + ( -2.8 dB loss VHF side ) = ( -13.9 dB ) I lock off and on at 59-70%

KASN = ( NM -33.6 dB ) + ( 13.2 dB gain for ch 39 ) = ( -20.4 dB ) + ( -2 dB loss UHF side ) = ( -22.4 dB ) I lock 78-84%

( Fort Smith Market )

KHBS 40.1 = ( 17.6 dB ) + ( 14 dB gain for ch 21 ) = ( 31.6 dB ) + ( -2 dB loss UHF side ) = ( 29.6 dB ) I lock 98-100%

KAFT 13.1 ( -.07 dB ) + ( 12.6 dB gain ch 9 ) = ( 12.5 dB ) + ( -2.8 dB VHF side ) = ( 11.3 dB ) I lock 98%

KFSM 18.1 = ( -12 dB ) + ( 14.1 dB gain ch 18 ) = ( 2.1 dB ) + ( -2 dB UHF side ) = ( .1 dB ) I lock occassionally at 55-70%

KFTA 24.1 = ( -19.8 dB ) + ( 13.8 dB gain for ch 27 ) = ( -6 dB ) + ( -2 dB UHF side ) = ( -8 dB ) I've only locked it 3 times in 2 years of trying.

According to the figures at tvfool and then my adjustments......I really should only be locking these

KARK from LR
KHBS & KAFT from FS.......3 channels...yet I lock 7 out of 10 all the time. According to these figures.....its a miracle that I get what I do...oh well, I'll take it:D

Davenlr

08-07-09, 05:34 PM

Here is the signal analysis results for my location...thanks for the instructions Sam

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d4d77225a949f22

That report has to be nuts. Its showing you with KTHV on ch 12 as your second strongest station. Id bet that KATV or any of the Shinall Mt UHF's are stronger. What says your signal meter?

steveken

08-07-09, 06:19 PM

Cleared out from under my deck the other day. At the curb I have 2 18" round single LNB dish's. I know one of them has a dual output LNB on it. I also have one of the 3 LNB oval dishes out there with the LNB intact on it. I believe it has 4 outputs on it as per the usual. The 3 LNB one has a long pole on it, the two output single LNB has the brackets on there so you can mount it on a railing of like an apartment complex (also has cables still on it), and the other is missing the part where the pole goes onto I believe. If anyone wants them, please let me know and I will tell you how to get here to pick them up.

arxaw

08-07-09, 06:59 PM

That report has to be nuts. Its showing you with KTHV on ch 12 as your second strongest station. Id bet that KATV or any of the Shinall Mt UHF's are stronger. What says your signal meter?Dave, I bet you're right. The predictions for VHF on TVFool vs real world reception, in my experience, have been quite different. Of course, the FCC thought VHF would work better than it did, too. Or they didn't want anyone to know it wouldn't.

I don't know anything about the insulation other than the outer walls have blown cellulose insulation. The builder said it has a high R rating...If you've got stabilized cellulose in the walls, you've got excellent insulation. It beats fiberglass, hands down.

Arkyman

08-07-09, 07:03 PM

That report has to be nuts. Its showing you with KTHV on ch 12 as your second strongest station. Id bet that KATV or any of the Shinall Mt UHF's are stronger. What says your signal meter?

KATV, KARK, KARZ and KTHV all run way up in the high 80's to low 90's on both the Sony a2020's tuner and the H20 reciever....I've never seen any of them below 84% since they all went full power. THV rarely gets 90 but it is a steady 87-89 all the time. The other three will occassionally jump into the 92-93% range but usually settle in the 89-90 range pretty close to what THV runs. I also register KLRT at 70-82% all the time and KASN is always a steady 76-84.....beats me.....but I'll take it:D

If you take a look at my KFSM figure of + 0.1 dB with the 7698.....swap it out for the 9032 and you got +1.6 dB....that would explain why I locked 5.1/18.1 the majority of the time with the 9032 but lost it when I installed the 7698. Looks like when KFSM doubles ERP, if everything plays out like it should, I would have +3.1 dB of usable signal with the 7698 and +4.6 dB of usable signal with the PR9032. Of course this all would hinge on the info being correct, and as you and Sam have pointed out, some of this info is just the opposite of the real life results I am seeing at my general location. Most folks in my area get the same channels I do if they have a good system. I feel sorry for the folks in Danville, that mountain just eats their LR signals up....I've talked to many folk from who could only get 4 and 11 when it was analog.....dont know about the digital results.....I think most folks dont even realize you can get all the locals in digital..

I'm learning a lot of cool and usuable concepts hanging around you guys.....Its nice to understand how some of this is supposed to work and actually have some theory to put behind the things you are trying to accomplish......I''m just a poultry farmer, but I'm sure learning a lot of good appliable info about OTA from you guys....thanks:)

Sidenote: In 2006, I went with my Bro-in law to help him pick out a HDTV. He got it from a pretty good store in Russellville, a Sony KDF55E2000, nice tv! Anyway, while there, I asked them why they were not using a roof top antenna to show off some of the local channels from LR or FS......they did not even know you could do that.....I was shocked they did not know this and thought....man....I should put in an HDTV store myself....it did not take me long to realize that I was much more knowledgeable about their tvs and OTA systems than anyone in their store....that really baffled me. I have been getting DTV since 2002 or maybe earlier, I cant remember now. My first reciever was the Samsung Sirt165...I still have it and it still works. But it blew my mind that a High end HDTV store had no idea in August of 2006 that you could recieve all your locals via roof top antenna....when I mentioned HD on locals, they could not believe it....I had a pretty good laugh over the whole deal.

Davenlr

08-07-09, 07:38 PM

And they wonder why there is a 10% unemployment rate. Stupid people. No Jobs.
Imagine owning a HDTV store and not knowing you could get HDTV free? Geeze. Would you like an order of fries with that Big Mac?

Arkyman

08-07-09, 08:02 PM

Trip in VA

08-07-09, 08:04 PM

When the transition went down, they [WVUE] shut down their UHF antenna and switched the digital signal to the larger VHF antenna. Once they did that, lots of people in the fringes could no longer pick up their feed.

On the contrary, the problem was actually people close in that couldn't see it. People with roof antennas out in the fringes were having few problems (outside of the normal lightning and other VHF issues), it was the people closer in trying to use indoor antennas that had the biggest problem getting any reception at all.

The moral of the story is that VHF and indoor antennas don't mix well.

- Trip

Arkyman

08-07-09, 08:18 PM

VHF is a stoopid place for TV to be these days. Most stations knew this and abandoned it for good reason.

As one who has money invested into two antennas which I currently use and are half VHF.....I'd gladly take the one time money loss to have everything moved to UHF...it would eliminate a ton of headaches for the viewer and offer a one antenna solution for OTA reception, not to mention the size difference in a UHF vs VHF aerial

Arkyman

08-07-09, 08:25 PM

On the contrary, the problem was actually people close in that couldn't see it. People with roof antennas out in the fringes were having few problems (outside of the normal lightning and other VHF issues), it was the people closer in trying to use indoor antennas that had the biggest problem getting any reception at all.

The moral of the story is that VHF and indoor antennas don't mix well.

- Trip

Personally, no matter where I lived, I'd much rather have some type of outdoor antenna than an indoor setup. But then again, I've always lived on the fringe and needed an outdoor setup, that might not be the case in a city although I do see lots of folks on here complain about indoor setups not recieving all the channels in the market.

Davenlr

08-07-09, 09:22 PM

Its not so much a matter of not receiving them, its the constant tweeking around with the antenna to get this channel, then tweeking to get that channel. Just people walking around in your room (or the apt upstairs) can cause the signal to glitch. Just not reliable enough for a DVR.

Now a question? Why would a station wish to use a "virtual channel" number? For example, when KARZ came online on channel 44, they used virtual channel 42. WHY? What would have been wrong with KARZ, Z44, etc? Whats the point besides confusing the crap out of everyone? You have to scan for the damn channel anyway.

Everywhere I drive I see "KATV 7 - New Digital, Vivid", yet anyone new to the area, is gonna scan channel 7, and end up with KETS.... Its just dumb.

And whatever KTAL in Texarkana is doing, is working. I get them every day, not 100%, and often not watchable, but thats a good signal to make it up here 140 miles during non-tropo.

Arkyman

08-07-09, 10:07 PM

Trip in VA

08-07-09, 10:13 PM

KARK = Ch. 32
KLRT = Ch. 30
KTHV = Ch. 12
KATV = Ch. 22
KASN = Ch. 39
KARZ = Ch. 44
KETS = Ch. 7

And that won't confuse viewers at all. :rolleyes:

- Trip

Arkyman

08-08-09, 12:16 AM

And that won't confuse viewers at all. :rolleyes:

- Trip

They'd get used to it...times change. Out with the old and in with the new.....its the natural process of life...change is just a natural occurrence with all things

Davenlr

08-08-09, 09:25 AM

Steveken: This directly relates to your SWM upgrade request, so thought Id post it here in case you missed seeing it:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2179021#post2179021

THIS is a QUOTE from AETN.ORG/ABOUT...I found it very funny:

Q. Is there anything else I need to know or remember about digital TV?

A. Where you live may also affect whether you receive the new digital signal. Such things as hills, tall buildings and structures, high-power electrical lines, storms, dense foliage, and even interior venetian blinds or large appliances can affect the reliability and quality of the signal. Viewers who used to rely on rabbit-ears or antennas in their attic may need to have an antenna on the roof of their home or on a tall pole beside their house.

... So remember folks, for good VHF reception, replace those blinds with curtains, and put that 'fridge out in the garage. ;)

RockyF

08-08-09, 12:35 PM

I personally think they should all have to use their real broadcast channel as their ID. Channel 2, 4, 7 , 11 , 16, 38, 42 as their channel numbers is a thing of the past and should have died with the analog shut down:rolleyes: This is what should be required by the FCC as of yesterday...

KARK = Ch. 32
KLRT = Ch. 30
KTHV = Ch. 12
KATV = Ch. 22
KASN = Ch. 39
KARZ = Ch. 44
KETS = Ch. 7

It's called branding. KATV has been Ch. 7 since the dawn of man, and they ain't gonna change that, even if Ch. 7 is actually AETN now. I'm not saying I agree with this, but it is the answer to the question. I would say that it's just a matter of educating the public, but the digital transition has proved that the public isn't interested in being educated. Of course, the fact of the matter is that most people have either cable or satellite, so it doesn't really matter that they don't know this stuff. If everything worked as it should have, and that includes VHF, even folks hooking up digital converter boxes shouldn't have had to worry about this anymore.

Now in the case of KARZ, I absolutely agree with davenlr, they put on new call letters, and at least some new programming (even if they stayed a MyNetwork affiliate), so they were pretty much a brand new station. Rebranding it Z-44 would have made just as much or more sense than leaving it Z-42.

arxaw

08-08-09, 12:59 PM

And that won't confuse viewers at all. :rolleyes:Not as much confusion as remapping has caused for people choosing antennas and anyone manually trying to tune a weak channel on its virtual channel number.

A one-time change to the physical channel numbers would end the above confusion. Remapping ensures it will never end.

Arkyman

08-08-09, 03:28 PM

[QUOTE=RockyF;16965713]It's called branding. KATV has been Ch. 7 since the dawn of man, and they ain't gonna change that, even if Ch. 7 is actually AETN now. I'm not saying I agree with this, but it is the answer to the question.

actually on since December 19th 1953:D You make a good point about the branding:)

meathead76

08-08-09, 04:01 PM

Not as much confusion as remapping has caused for people choosing antennas and anyone manually trying to tune a weak channel on its virtual channel number.

A one-time change to the physical channel numbers would end the above confusion. Remapping ensures it will never end.

anyone who's too dumb/lazy to scan for channels shouldn't have a TV ;):D

Davenlr

08-08-09, 05:12 PM

anyone who's too dumb/lazy to scan for channels shouldn't have a TV ;):D

Some tuners erase the channel database every time a new scan is done. If you are wanting to add a single channel, you need to know what channel it add.

Example: You want to add KFSM ch 5 in Ft. smith. You turn the antenna around toward Ft Smith. What channel do you add without looking on the internet?

Arkyman

08-08-09, 06:18 PM

Some tuners erase the channel database every time a new scan is done. If you are wanting to add a single channel, you need to know what channel it add.

Example: You want to add KFSM ch 5 in Ft. smith. You turn the antenna around toward Ft Smith. What channel do you add without looking on the internet?

My Vizio 37" is like that. I love the tv, its a nice inexpensive HDTV....but I hate the way it erases channels on every scan. It basically makes it impossible for me to log the LR and FS channels.....I have to choose one or the other, I cant have both. Sometimes I get KHBS 40.1 from FS even though my ant is oriented toward LR. If I scan the vizio to log 40.1, I must first check all my LR channels to make sure none of them are dropping out. If they are, even though I gain 40.1....I might lose say 2.1 or 36.1 which are two of my my weaker channels....it can get to be a real pain in the you know where at times. Now my sony sxrd....you can choose the " add digital " option anytime and you never lose the channels that are already logged into memory, the way it should be on all HDTV's

steveken

08-09-09, 12:03 AM

Steveken: This directly relates to your SWM upgrade request, so thought Id post it here in case you missed seeing it:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=2179021#post2179021

Thanks, Dave. Ok, so it sounds like unless the installer feels froggy, I won't get it even if I ask him to do it. Expected.

What is at question now, however, is this: What will he do in a situation like mine? Meaning, its a new construction, there is only one line coming out of the house that can be used for DirecTV. What would he do? Run 3 more lines through the house to get it going if he were to install a standard 4 output LNB?

Also, it looks like if you have problems with your system and need work done on it, if DirecTV doesn't know officially that you have a SWM LNB on the system, they won't work on it. You will have to deal with it yourself. So, what do you do in that situation? Just put the old LNB back on it and make it limp while they are fixing it? Or just suck it up and fix it the same way you got the SWM LNB in the first place?

This leaves me at one final question, if I buy the individual parts, is there anyone here that knows enough about mounting that can help me mount it on the back edge of my roof for me and wire it where it looks professional (and I mean professional with no extraneous holes, no leaking, no other things that might piss off the wife. hehehe)? And would I need to just buy they whole dish, pole, mounting braces setup and all? And also would they be able to subsequently help me aim it properly? I know I can get it pretty close myself on aiming, its just the height that will get me. I am only accustomed to mounting on a pole in the yard at eye level, and I am somewhat afraid of heights.

You know, I just would hate to have to buy all that crap myself and mount it all myself when DirecTV has that lovely movers connection where they are supposed to do it for me for free. (And lose the free 3 months of HBO and all that they give you when you do move your service. Wonder if I could get a better HD receiver off them......likely not.) I was just hoping that I could take advantage of that offer in order to make it as easy as possible.

Davenlr

08-09-09, 12:20 AM

arxaw

08-09-09, 08:55 AM

steveken

08-09-09, 11:31 AM

Just let them do the install, even if they want to run two more lines into the media closet. Let them mount and aim the dish, do the ground block, and just tell them you only want the one line to each room, so they will set the dvr up for one tuner. After they are gone, swap out the lnb with a swmline lnb, disconnect the three unused cables between the dish and the ground block, and replace the multiswitch (if they install one) with a splitter. If you need a realignment, I can do that. Just let them do the dirty work, so if the roof leaks, they can pay for the damages. Once they are done, we can do the rest. Who knows, several people are reporting getting SWM installs on a movers connection (although it was the installers choice). Im sure, IF he has one on the truck, and sees the house is already prewired, he will use SWM. Why do 4 hours work, when you could do 30 minutes work for the same paycheck.

Option two: Cancel your service, and have your wife call and order NEW SERVICE at the new address in her name. Tell em you want all the free stuff :)

Option Three: Hire the guys on W Markham street to do the install.
Yeah, think I will let them do it, but I won't be letting them run two more wires. Thats just too much of a hassle. Plus my wife will excrete biological material in the shape of a brick if they put more holes in the siding that what is already there. She is a stickler for that "no holes in the house" kinda thing. I will tell them I am willing to have only one working jack, then go and replace it.

All this is IF they don't have the swm or are unwilling to do it for free. On that link you sent me, there was part of it at the top where it made it sound like you could buy the swm lnb from them off the truck if they have it. If that is an option, I might consider buying it from him if the prices aren't way out of line. I figure $150 might be okay for the equipment.

I agree, if he is smart and actually listens to me when I tell him its prewired, he might actually go the easy route and give me what I want. :)

Option two really isn't an option I don't think. Well, it might be cause I think it will probably be only like $50 to $75 at this point for the prorated cancellation fee. Wish there was a way to tell how much time I have left. Its going to be off from what I originally had with my original install date cause I put it on hold when I tried AT&T. I guess I could call and ask how much the cancellation fee would be. But then we would be starting all over again on a new account and lose whatever bonuses or whatever we might have accumulated over the time of having the service. Might not be that big a deal on that.

Option three sucks the most cause I will be paying people to do everything when I can get most of it done for free. :) Still, its an idea.

Thanks man, you are always helpful.

arxaw

08-09-09, 03:08 PM

My Vizio 37" is like that. I love the tv, its a nice inexpensive HDTV....but I hate the way it erases channels on every scan. It basically makes it impossible for me to log the LR and FS channels.....I have to choose one or the other, I cant have both. Two tuner options should be mandated:
"Add new channels option"
"Signal Meter option"

That may never happen, so in the meantime, shop carefully. Research online and/or check out the TV's menu options in the store, before buying.

Arkyman

08-09-09, 06:16 PM

Two tuner options should be mandated:
"Add new channels option"
"Signal Meter option"

That may never happen, so in the meantime, shop carefully. Research online and/or check out the TV's menu options in the store, before buying.

Yeah your right, better do your homework before you put the cash down a new HDTV. I owned my sony sxrd 60a2020 (in the living room) for 1 year before I bought the Vizio VW37L (Bedroom). I just assumed the tuner would work the same as my Sony's........I should not have assumed.....Next time I buy an HDTV, the tuner specs will be one of the first things I check out

Davenlr

08-09-09, 06:28 PM

Sharp Aquos doesnt have an add feature either. I didnt care at the time, since I never use the tuner, so never checked. Found out one day when DX'ING ANALOG (it was the only tuner I had that still did analog)

Arkyman

08-09-09, 06:42 PM

Something I think should be done away with is all the " and it comes with a digital tuner/Atsc tuner too"...well, since analog is basically no more (except for a few chs) and digital is the main stream.....it should be against the law for stores to sell a new hdtv that does not have an atsc tuner.....it should just be a fore gone conclusion by now that all hdtvs have an atsc tuner. I'm sure merchants use the "it has a built in digital tuner" line all day long on customers to push their brand. In reality, selling a new hdtv today without an atsc tuner would be like buying a new car without a fuel injection system installed on the motor:rolleyes: I can just hear the car salesman now....oh..and wait...if you buy this brand new car "X" today....we'll throw in the fuel injection for free.....ala HDTV/ATSC tuner...and I bet 90% of tv buyers fall for it too

arxaw

08-09-09, 07:43 PM

All TVs sold now in the US must include an ATSC tuner, if they have a tuner at all. They can still sell tunerless monitors.

Arkyman

08-09-09, 10:10 PM

All TVs sold now in the US must include an ATSC tuner, if they have a tuner at all. They can still sell tunerless monitors.

I dont understand why they can still sell a monitor without a tuner if its sole purpose is to be used by the general public as a personal tv:confused:

I wonder how many people connected a converter box that dowgrades HD to SD, to their hdtv that has a built in atsc tuner.....point being, they didnt need a converter box to start with and by putting it in the loop, they degrade the PQ unknowingly

arxaw

08-09-09, 11:13 PM

There are a lot of legitimate purposes for a monitor. And regardless, the FCC only has the authority to regulate products that include tuners.

steveken

08-09-09, 11:25 PM

Believe it or not, but there are a LOT of people that want a 24" or bigger monitor for their computers or HTPC's. They are really quite popular.

Arkyman

08-10-09, 01:05 AM

I agree.....there are many uses for a monitor, I just dont think one should be sold under the false pretense that it has a built in tuner to someone who doesnt know any better......and lets face it, the majority of America is not AVS educated like us.

I'd be one of those people who would love to have a 24" WS or bigger......sadly I cant afford one....

steveken

08-10-09, 10:07 AM

Johnny Angell

08-10-09, 10:14 AM

After they are gone, swap out the lnb with a swmline lnb, disconnect the three unused cables between the dish and the ground block, and replace the multiswitch (if they install one) with a splitter. I've got a question about this swm switch. I did a google on it and what I read referred to it as a switch which I took to mean a device somewhere after the dish. You refer to it as an lnb. Are there two different types or is it only an lnb device mounted on the dish?

I've had my DTV setup for several years so I'm pretty sure I don't have it. Since all my lines are already run, I would presume there's no advantage to getting the swm after the fact? Is the only advantage that there's only on cable required from the dish?

One article I read mentioned there was little advantage to either commercial entity in using the swm. One it costs DTV more, and two the installer gets to bill fewer labor hours.

A month or so ago I was having trouble with HD reception. DTV came out twice and ended up replacing just about every connection they could access. After the second trip, all was working well. In fact, I think I'm less prone to rain fade now.

steveken

08-10-09, 11:17 AM

There are two kinds of SWM's. One goes inline between your 4 leads from the LNB and the receivers. Then there is the other that is an LNB with the SWM built into it replacing the old one that had the 4 outputs on it and making it just have 1 that can be split between 8 receivers.

If you don't have more than 4 total tuners on your setup (being 1 DVR with 2 tuners and 2 other receivers, 2 DVR's, or just 4 receivers total), you wouldn't have had your old setup replaced or upgraded. The only advantage to someone with less than 4 receivers is the ability to reduce the amount of lines going to the DVR from 2 to 1. With the SWM, you can run just 1 coax into tuner 1 on the DVR (newer DVR's that support the technology only) and the DVR will be able to recognize the SWM and use that 1 wire as if it were 2.

For instance, on my current setup, when we got the DVR we had to run another line around the room to the DVR's location. This produced a cable that was unattractive and that gets in the way sometimes. If we had had the SWM available at the time, this would have been avoided. Since it wasn't, well, we have the eye-sore (in my mind. I guess others wouldn't think its so bad).

As far as there being little advantage to using it, I think that's incorrect because it will make installs far easier for installers and the costs will continue to drop on the amount of money it costs for DirecTV or other manufacturers to make the product. In fact, it might even attract customers because they will no longer be required to have 3 more holes drilled in their house for the LNB outputs to be brought in. This SWM will allow them to more effectively use the cable TV input already going into a vast majority of the households they service. Less time required for installers per install = more installs per day = more money for both companies. This is all granted they set up the dish right and aim it right.

With your brief description of your problems you were having, it sounds as if your installer did an inadequate job of aiming your dish when it got set up the first time, so you were having reception issues on the HD side. Since they came out and you are having less rain fade issues now, it sounds like they finally fixed the alignment problem. Far too often most satellite issues stem from piss poor alignment by crappy installers or installers that are too rushed to get to their next appointment. If they were able to spend less time wiring the house with all 4 runs of coax, they would be able to spend far more time aiming the dish correctly and alleviating the problem that a lot of people have. I, for one, had to go out and realign my dish myself after my installer hauled ass out of here just to get a good signal. These guys are in way too big of a hurry to get the job done right most of the time. It's kinda like the segments on the Today show. There is way too much information trying to be crammed into a short amount of time. Take things out or simplify other things during the install, things will get much easier. That's where I believe the SWM LNB's come into play.

steveken

08-10-09, 11:20 AM

Well, I sure hope noone needed those old dishes I had. The city just came by and picked them up and the old storm door I had out there for over 2 weeks.

Arkyman

08-10-09, 11:40 AM

Sorry, but I just haven't seen ANY monitors being sold as a TV. In fact, if you go into any big box retailer, they are all separated rather well. I can't think of one instance where there was a monitor anywhere near a HDTV, much less being advertised as one.

Guess it just depends on where you've been and what you've seen.....All HDTVs were "HD Monitors" before built in atsc tuners came along....my old mitsubishi 65" was a HD Monitor. An external STB such as the samsung sirt165 was required to act as the digital tuner for the tv. My point is that many merchants have not made the difference known up front to the customer. All Hdtv's produced today may be required to have a built in atsc, but there are thousands of new hd monitors still sitting in warehouses that do not have them and are still being sold to the public. Just last year when I bought my vizio from walmart, I ran accross several tvs that did not have the built in atsc.

ad5kl

08-10-09, 12:19 PM

I am still waiting on the day the FCC gives a new station a channel, but some existing station says that is their virtual channel so "new" station has to use another virtual instead of their own.

"No you can't have your real channel - we must have our imaginary channel."

Arkyman

08-10-09, 01:19 PM

Trip in VA

08-10-09, 01:27 PM

WDPM.

- Trip

Arkyman

08-10-09, 01:35 PM

WDPM.

- Trip

Wow! I wikpedia'd them to see what you were talking about.

So, new real channel 23 must use virtual channel 31.1 becasue old analog channel PBS 23 which is now real channel 31 uses virtual channel 23.1 therefore real channel 23 cannot use 23.1 because real channel 31 claims virtual channel 23.1 forcing real channel 23 to use virtual channel 31.1:confused: W o W!...I'd like to see someone explain that to the general public

Trip in VA

08-10-09, 02:07 PM

arxaw

08-10-09, 04:11 PM

...Just last year when I bought my vizio from walmart, I ran accross several tvs that did not have the built in atsc.Yeah, back then, some places were still selling them at rock bottom prices to the uneducated masses, who only saw CHEAP TV for sale. They were oblivious to the fact that if they were connected to an antenna they would have obsolete tuners in short order.

This is no longer true. You won't find any NTSC-only TVs in your local brick & mortar. Still might find some at a few nefarious web sites. And you can still buy tunerless HD monitors. There's nothing wrong with that if you're not using it for OTA. They're not very common, though.

Arkyman

08-10-09, 07:14 PM

Yeah, back then, some places were still selling them at rock bottom prices to the uneducated masses, who only saw CHEAP TV for sale. They were oblivious to the fact that if they were connected to an antenna they would have obsolete tuners in short order.

This is no longer true. You won't find any NTSC-only TVs in your local brick & mortar. Still might find some at a few nefarious web sites. And you can still buy tunerless HD monitors. There's nothing wrong with that if you're not using it for OTA. They're not very common, though.

I've actually had the vizio a bit longer than I thought. I remember watching the some of the SEC mens B-ball tourney on it in march of 2008. That was when Ark made it to the finals and faced a weak Georgia team and we got beat.....so I remember it well:( So its actually been a year and a half since I was really checking out the specs on them.

Davenlr

08-10-09, 11:44 PM

There are a lot of legitimate purposes for a monitor. And regardless, the FCC only has the authority to regulate products that include tuners.

The 37" LCD in my bedroom is "tunerless". Saved the money, since I knew I was only going to use it for DirecTv box.

Davenlr

08-10-09, 11:56 PM

I've had my DTV setup for several years so I'm pretty sure I don't have it. Since all my lines are already run, I would presume there's no advantage to getting the swm after the fact? Is the only advantage that there's only on cable required from the dish?

Originally, the main purpose for SWM was so that DirecTv HD could be offered to customers in Apt Buildings. The Apt installer just put one dish up, and then the signal was fed via SWM to the outlet in each apt.

Currently, new residential installs have the option, so that if you had cable TV, and already had outlets in each room, the DirecTv installer could just mount the dish, disconnect the cable TV at ground block (assuming you didnt have cable internet as well), and plug in the single coax from the dish.

Future use is very promising. Cannot discuss it publically, but by Christmas, you will probably find yourself wanting to upgrade ;)

arxaw

08-11-09, 09:57 AM

Did DirecTV get the cold weather problems solved with their Slimline SWM?

BTW, DishNetwork can also run a single coax to a room now, for their two-tuner DVRs. I believe you can also diplex OTA onto that same coax, if you have their OTA module. OTA module lets you record 4 events simultaneously (two satellite channels + two OTA channels).

ad5kl

08-11-09, 10:40 AM

For whatever reason, Daystar has decided that it is okay for them to map to 4-1 for some reason. I'm hearing the FCC cited them on that one and now they're trying to get 6-1 out of the FCC.

31-1 is where they belong. It's what the spec says they're supposed to do.

- Trip

I'd be interested to see the first time one of these deals goes into litigation. Squatters rights vs which station has the most money, uh I mean representation. I'd say the latter.

So not only does the FCC have to juggle actual channels for station assignments but the virtuals - let's see how long that lasts. More work for them.

steveken

08-11-09, 12:21 PM

BTW, DishNetwork can also run a single coax to a room now, for their two-tuner DVRs. I believe you can also diplex OTA onto that same coax, if you have their OTA module. OTA module lets you record 4 events simultaneously (two satellite channels + two OTA channels).
That is the only good thing I have seen about Dish is the ability to record 4 simultaneous things. Thats one of the things I thought was nice about U-Verse as well even though most people would only get to do 1 HD recording. Anyway, I wish DirecTV could do that, but oh well. :)

Davenlr

08-11-09, 08:52 PM

Well, since DirecTv doesnt charge for extra DVRs like DISH does, just get two DVRs (my setup) and you can record 4 programs at once, plus a 5th OTA/FTA with the computer.

Anyone interested in aviation, check out NOVA - THE WORLDS DEADLIEST PLANE CRASH tonight...excellent show.

steveken

08-11-09, 09:32 PM

Well, since DirecTv doesnt charge for extra DVRs like DISH does, just get two DVRs (my setup) and you can record 4 programs at once, plus a 5th OTA/FTA with the computer.

easy for you to say. Lol. It's kinda expensive for me. Maybe one day I will have another. Like after tg move possibly. Or maybe I can find a way to get one for less than directv wants for one. I just don't want to spend the hours it will take to convince directv to give me on for less. They just aren't likely to give me one without a huge fight and my threts of leaving likely won't produce much since I am going to be trying to move service.
Plus, doesn't it seem a bit much o have to have two receivers when theirs can do it with one? :).

Anyway, like I said, maybe one day. Need to get the slow progress on the house resolved first. Didn't do jack on it today for some unknown reason.

Davenlr

08-11-09, 09:45 PM

Moving would be the perfect time...Tell em you have offers for your new house from Comcast, ATT, and DISH, and tell em you really need two DVRS in the new place, and ATT and DISH both offered free ones, and tell em you were just checking with them to see if you could get a free one before switching. Cant hurt.

Arkyman

08-11-09, 11:22 PM

My little directv deal a while back that I thought was so sweet turned sour. I was supposed to still be on the original 2 year contract when I got my discounted package last year when I had threatened to pay them the $113 early exit fee. When I called to see how many months was left on my committment, they informed me that I was committed until August of 2010:confused: They say I agreed to another year when I got my discount deal last year....thats a lie, I did not agree to any additional time and the lady I talked too was supposed to note that in the computer. I was told that no extra time would be added to my contract but indeed it was according to "directv-ass-screwing". They say I'm showing a 36 month sign up agreement from the beginning of my installation in August of 2007, they even admitted to me that it was strange because they dont offer 36 month sign ups to anyone. Everytime I tried to explain what happened, they would rebuttle me with......yeah but you agreed...blah blah blah. So, now what I have is a year to go (total of 3 years) plus NO UPGRADES.....at least if I had signed up for an extra year I could have gotten some new equipment.....the way they present it, I'm committed for 3 years with no ability to upgrade. As soon as Arkwest communications in Danville gets their HD working on the IPTV....I'm swapping to them and calling Directv and telling those damn lying bastards to jump off a cliff :mad: I hate the way directv and dishnetwork treat their existing customers.....I've never had anything but trouble out of both of them. Oh for the days when all I needed was my 10ft Cband dish in the backyard....it gave me 18 years of wonderful tv experience with no arsholes to deal with.......my Bud...1988-2006....rest in peace:(

Davenlr

08-12-09, 12:12 AM

One thing Ive never heard, is what does Directv actually do if you cancel the credit card they have on file for you, and just up and return all their receivers? Ive never seen a single post where Directv did anything to collect the ETF. I would think, in reality, they would never be able to collect it unless the actually keep tapes of every conversation where they could pull up the tape in court. Would they spend the money to take you to court for $100?

Id just mail their receivers back with a big THANk YOU if you dont want them anymore...just make sure you credit card is cancelled first.

steveken

08-12-09, 09:54 AM

Well, they could send you to a collection agency just like any other company that you owe money would. They don't really need proof of anything, just that you owe them the fee. That would be enough for the collection agency to legally come after you. And if you didn't pay that, you would have to wait 7 years for it to fall off your credit report. I doubt that the $131 or whatever you would owe would be enough to cause any problems when you try to buy anything else.....well, as long as there isn't anything else negative on your report. :)

I have rarely had any troubles with DirecTV that I didn't expect or didn't agree with after thinking about. I don't think I have ever tried to get a lower rate for a while from them.....that was only with me on Comcast and they are always easy to get that out of. I haven't heard of anyone getting messed up like that before, but I suppose it is bound to happen. They have too many customers and too much power over the customers. That is one case (out of many) in which this country fails. It is too openly capitalistic and geared against the general population. Occasionally you will be able to find people that work at companies like that which will be willing to mess with the system to help you out. You just have to try and try until you get that person though.

Arkyman

08-12-09, 11:41 AM

I was happy with directv until they pulled this stunt. I'm still happy with the tv service, what I dont like is the behind the scenes contract extension manipulation. My continuance with them will hinge on how quickily Arkwest upgrades their IPTV to HD. They are currently upgrading.... until then, I'll remain with Directv. However, if Arkwest is HD ready next month, I'll cut Directv an early termination fee check and be done with them

arxaw

08-12-09, 11:43 AM

Arkyman,
I had been with D* since 1995, and had always been fairly happy with the service. But I left them when they tried to screw me over to replace a DVR that they bricked when they sent out a software update. They wanted to send out a tech to replace the bad DVR, when all they had to do is FedEx me a replacement. And they were going to charge me for the replacement DVR, plus $50 for the truck roll and a new 2-year commitment. And they had just increased my monthly programming bill. I told 'em to stick their buggy DVR where they can't reach.

I almost opted to just go OTA-only, but instead decided to get the Dish HD-only programming. Free install and the monthly bill is about $50/month less than D* was. They even threw in two OTA-capable boxes. One HD DVR & 1 HD receiver. Their OTA tuners are at least on par with D*'s and the boxes' menus & channel changing are so much faster than D*'s. And have never had to be reset.

Arkyman

08-12-09, 01:48 PM

I had dishnetwork in the past as well. I got into it with them over the whole Mpeg 2 vs Mpeg 4 issue. I was using the HD-811 receiver. I was told that when Espn 2 HD and the other HD channels became availiable they would be added to my existing HD package and the 811 would not need upgraded. I was also getting Universal HD at the time, a channel they claimed my 811 could not display......however I watched it on the 811 for half a year before they cut it off. Suddenly I was not getting Universal HD and had never gotten ESPN2 HD. So I called them to see what the deal was. They told me I could not watch the new HD channesl without the new HD DVR but that was not true because I had been watching several of them before they cut me off....they even tried to tell me that I had never watched those HD channels thru the 811....that it was not possible. Later in the conversation, the lady admitted to me that the 811 was capable of displaying some of the new HD's. She said Dishnetwork had made a decision to make the 811 obsolete and replace them with the newer HD DVR's. I said fine, send me the new HD DVR and I'll return the 811. They said they did not want the 811 back and that I would have to pay $200 to upgrade to the new HD DVR.....plus I'd have to enter a new 18 month committment. At the time, new customers were getting the same HD DVR for free with sign up.....yet they wanted me to pay $200 after being a loyal customer for 2 years. I let em know how I felt for sure. I told them how sorry it was to lie to their customers, promising them one thing and then not delivering. I then told them how sorry it was to make an existing loyal customer pay $200 and be bound to a new committment just to recieve the HD channels they were promised would be available on the 811 receiver. I believe the problems with these small dish companies is a lot more wide spread than some of us think. I dont know anyone who has not had some type of serious complaint about these small dishes at one time or another. Nothing is handled on the local level anymore...so Roy dont have to worry about Bob walking in the front door and punching his lights out for cheating him like he did 25 years ago....nowdays its just a spider web of confusion and deception.....the folks you see out front never have any power to do anything about your problems with their company....they are just "YES" men/women. The real folks in control hide behind closed doors and let all the people they employ do the dirty work. Its like the poultry industry that I'm in. I have a field represenative ( we call em field men ) who comes by every week or two and checks on my farm/birds to see how everything is going. If I have a bone to pick with the company over an issue, hes says, hey, your talking to the wrong guy....I cant do anything about any of this..the decsion is not mine......my reply.....then what the hell are you doing on my farm:confused: Its the same feeling you get when you deal with a small dish company who gives you the run around...anytime you deal with a large company...its nothing more than a revolving door or lies, greed and deciet. At the end of the day, they dont give a damn whether you are happy or not....just as long as they have your money and have you tied into a legal binding contract where you are the one bent over a barrel.

The bright side.....in my area we are beginning to see more options....Arkwest has the HD IPTV that will be available soon and I've heard rumblings that Suddenlink cable could upgrade this area to digital/HD in the future....believe it or not....Suddenlink still offers the same old horrible analog cable in this area thats been here for years...they need to get up to date or leave the area one. Since tax dollars paid for the whole analog to digital transition, seems to me that all cable companies should be required to make digital and HD availabe to all customers who want it. In this country, the working man pays for everything thru taxes, then when the benefit comes, we have to turn around and pay again to use it or get left out of the loop all together......:rolleyes:

arxaw

08-12-09, 02:39 PM

Bottom, line, I think the new or returning customers always get better deals than existing customers, be it with satellite, cable or phone company.

steveken

08-12-09, 04:03 PM

From KATVNews on Twitter we get:

RT @randykatv: Mark Rose to replace Dale Nicholson as General Manager of KATV-7 effective October 1.

Arkyman

08-12-09, 04:57 PM

Bottom, line, I think the new or returning customers always get better deals than existing customers, be it with satellite, cable or phone company.

Thats probably true. I guess this would be my question for any tv programming provider. What good does it do to promise a customer free setups with sign up, but then two years later they cease being your customer because they are no longer happy? Looks like these small dish companies would want to form long term service with their customers, especially with newer options like IPTV popping up everywhere. If cable companies would get their acts together, they really have the upper hand in all of this. Its still one of the most simple setups available today....one cable..split to all rooms...no additional charge

I have also rolled over the thought of going all OTA....however I cant get ESPN and that ones a killer for my college football, basketball and baseball

RockyF

08-12-09, 05:00 PM

From KATVNews on Twitter we get:

RT @randykatv: Mark Rose to replace Dale Nicholson as General Manager of KATV-7 effective October 1.

Just read that, and was on my way to post it. Here's a few more details from Arkansas Business:

http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/article.aspx?aID=116577.54928.128722

arxaw

08-12-09, 06:46 PM

Hell hath indeed frozen over.

Davenlr

08-12-09, 09:56 PM

Like Comcast. Increased my phone bill from $19.95/mo to $60/mo. I asked for the $19.95 back, and they said it was only good for one year. I explained $19.95 is more than enough for the one call a day I average, and they disagreed, so I switched to Vonage. Business wise, it make absolutely no sense, since my VOIP calls were not costing Comcast a dime anyway. These telecom companies are so clueless, its totally amazing MCI is the only one that has gone under.

steveken

08-13-09, 12:18 AM

Why do you think people are ditching land line and VoIP phones for just cell phones. I have always known Comcast jacks the price way up. They have the absolute nerve to say that their feces is less expensive than even AT&T's landline service. They forget to say "for 12 months only, then you're out of luck, chump." They are the biggest ripoff on the planet, but yet people switch to them left and right. I refuse to have a regular or VoIP phone in my house until cell phone providers figure out how to block signals from going through its walls. Hell, I even got a free Google Voice phone number for people I don't want to know my cell number.

Davenlr

08-13-09, 08:10 AM

I like Vonage tho. If someone leaves me a voicemail, Vonage sends me an email to my cellphone with a .wav file of the voicemail attached, so I can listen to it without having to even make a call. Pretty cool.

My problem with cell phones is people call you all the time, and Ill get calls when im under a countertop installing water lines, or in a quiet hospital zone. Always having to turn it on, off, on, off. I hate cell phones. If my boss didnt require me to carry it, then I wouldnt even have one. Oh, and the quality??? Echo backs, tower switches, dropped calls, "can you hear me now"...it just goes on and on.

Yesterday, I was on a US highway, 10 miles from Longview Tx, and had no service. The service from Longview to Gilmer was one bar, with pine tree dead zones. I even hit a dropped call on I-40 between Dallas and Texarkana.

steveken

08-13-09, 09:02 AM

Google Voice does the same exact thing as Vonage does on voicemail with one exception. While the voicemail gets sent to your email (I think it does cause, I mean, it is Google after all. hehe) and is saved on their server for you to listen back (again, its Google, so the email IS their server, so its kinda the same exact thing. hehe), it also get transcribed automatically by the system so you get a TEXT version of the voicemail as an email as well. Sure, occasionally it will screw up the transcribing and put in a different name or something if it can't quite make it out, but from what I have heard, it works pretty well. I haven't gotten any phone calls on that line yet. I am just going by what I have read and heard about it, as well as the welcome voicemail I got from them that demonstrates how it does with different accents and everything. I think in your situation, Dave, that Google Voice would be great for you. People call your Google Voice number, leave you a message, the message is automatically converted to text for you, and you can read it when you are ready all without disturbing your surroundings or relying on an actual signal because it isn't going to your phone, but waiting on you to get back on the Internet. :)

Anyway, my .02 on it. I am sure you can read up on it if you are interested.

arxaw

08-13-09, 09:22 AM

I hate to call people who only have a cell phone. I either catch them somewhere they'd rather not talk, or the sound quality sucks. If the call's not urgent, I often just call directly to voicemail and leave 'em a message.

LR AT&T: 501 213-9010
LR Verizon: 501 539-5200

[of course, this is waaaaaaay off topic.]

steveken

08-13-09, 09:30 AM

Nah, there really is no topic anymore. :) We all just come here to talk about anything and everything. If someone wants to throw an HD TV thing in here and there, woo hoo! :)

Davenlr

08-13-09, 12:03 PM

We would if any of the local stations would fix their problems. I get tired of complaining about it all the time.

My solution for cell calls is simple, I never answer the phone :)

Arkyman

08-13-09, 02:23 PM

Wow...shocker:eek: I just checked the price on a channel master 30ft telescoping mast at Leonards in Russellville and it was $99.99:eek: I bought 2 from them last year for $59.99 a piece. I remember when they were $39.99 then 49.99 and when they were $59.99 I couldnt hardly stand putting down the cash......Now at 99.99.....I told them to forget it:rolleyes: Metal has gone up over time....it aint gone up that much

Davenlr

08-13-09, 07:18 PM

Make your own from EMT conduit. Stuff is tuff, and cheap.

steveken

08-13-09, 11:38 PM

HOLY HELL!!! What the hell kinda camera are they using on that Cowboys game on 4.1???? Jerry Jones' head was like the ENTIRE width of the TV!!! This is all during the halftime thing at 10:38. Dunno if anyone really cares about it.

EDIT: Okay, so, one cardinal rule that should be followed and NEVER broken is this.....

If you are using a 16x9 camera as your principal, make sure ALL cameras used on the production are 16x9. You should NEVER switch between 16x9 and 4x3-stretched-to-hell-and-back during the broadcast. I mean, comeon! That makes you look like amateurs and you don't know what the hell you are doing. /end rant ;)

Davenlr

08-13-09, 11:52 PM

There is a reason NBC doesnt have much sports programming.....

Trip in VA

08-14-09, 12:18 AM

KKYK-CA applies to flash-cut on channel 20, 15 kW ND.

- Trip

steveken

08-14-09, 12:21 AM

KKYK-CA applies to flash-cut on channel 20, 15 kW ND.

- Trip
Care to make that a little more english for me? :)

Trip in VA

08-14-09, 12:37 AM

Um... KKYK-CA wants to go digital on channel 20, at 15 kW.

- Trip

steveken

08-14-09, 12:40 AM

Ahh, gotcha

EDIT: You know, thats not a whole lot of power. Who do they expect to serve with that tiny amount??? That won't hardly get anywhere.

Davenlr

08-14-09, 08:01 AM

Same amount of power as KTWN uses North of Cabot, and I get them 95% two edge...Just need some antenna gain. From Shinall, 15KW should cover pretty well, for anyone who has an outside antenna. I think thats the upper limit of a -LD license.

steveken

08-14-09, 09:08 AM

Yeah, but a vast majority of people around here will have nothing close to being able to receive that. Trip said ND, is that different from the LD you said? And are you sure its going to still be up on top of Shinall? I am not familiar with its current location (I may try to look it up later). I am right here below the mountain and I am barely able to get analog 20 where its watchable. Its still very very snowy. Its even up in the UHF where my antenna is supposedly designed for. I am doubting very much that I will be able to get digital 20.

arxaw

08-14-09, 09:43 AM

steveken

08-14-09, 10:05 AM

ND = Non Directional antenna
If you're right below the mtn, the signal's probably going over your head.

FWIW, I get this 2kW Branson station (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=LD1312895.html) on UHF 17, way outside their coverage area. A real antenna helps :)
Well, thats good for you. It also helps if you have a desire to have your house looking like a barbecue grill because of the huge antenna on the roof. Or a wife that will tolerate your house having a huge shiny metal eyesore on the roof. That's the thing regular people have to put up with when trying to get OTA stuff is comments like that. My wife isn't one that will tolerate that kinda crap. That's what satellite dishes or cable TV is for in her eyes.

If I didn't have a wife, weren't trying to sell this house (which is taking way too long...5 months now), and had the cash for a good antenna, I might do that. You would think in this day and age with all the advancements in everything else that has gone on, there would be a way for every normal person to be able to get their local TV stations without having to make their house look like a farm house from 1965 just to get TV. I shouldn't have to have $300 worth of amplifiers to get a channel I want to see. I also shouldn't have to have another $300 or so in antenna, tower, cable from the tower, and so forth to get channels.

It's the same old disagreement that has been going on all this time. I keep getting told to get a "real" antenna when the one I have works perfectly fine. For the record, I now get EVERY real digital station that actually shows content, and isn't a LP channel that even next to it you need a big ass antenna to get, full scale on my "non-real antenna". I think it was just the transition is all it took to get them. The only problem I have now is multipath, and thats been a problem from day one because of my proximity to the towers. My non-real, amplified, $38 Wal-Mart antenna seems to just fine even on the mid-VHF of 7. I get on digital all the 2's, 4, both 7's, both 11's, both 16's, the VTN on 25, Daystar on 36, 38, 42, as well as analog 20, 28 , 34, and 58. I think being able to get all those qualifies as a "real antenna" and I don't have to turn it or anything.

Trip in VA

08-14-09, 10:45 AM

15 kW is the power limit for low-powered digital stations.

ND means "not directional" which means they're using an omni directional antenna.

- Trip

steveken

08-14-09, 10:47 AM

hmm, you would think that KKYK would want to be seen. I don't understand why they are keeping with the whole low power bit. Do they not really care if anyone sees their signal or not? Very odd.

Trip in VA

08-14-09, 10:57 AM

They are licensed as a low-powered Class A signal. They must stay within those limits.

- Trip

steveken

08-14-09, 11:06 AM

Well, yeah, I understand that part. Wasn't it partly their fault in the first place that they are limited to such low power? I mean, can't they request to be able to go higher? One would think that if they were serious about service to Little Rock, they would request to be upgraded to a different class. Maybe they really aren't that serious about servicing this area. If they aren't, why bother switching over? I mean, they could concentrate on the satellite and cable markets alone and be better off than spending money transmitting to an audience that is going to play hell getting them.

Trip in VA

08-14-09, 11:16 AM

No, they can't. To build a full-powered station requires that you:

- Have an open FCC window to apply for one. There has not been one for several years.
- Submit a petition for rulemaking with technical details showing it will not create interference.
- Receive a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking from the FCC and enter the 30 day comment period.
- Comment supporting the NPRM.
- If someone opposes, comments are extended and must be responded to.
- If the FCC rejects their opposition, receive a report and order confirming the new allotment.
- Wait for the FCC to hold an auction for the new allotment. This can take several years.
- Bid on the allotment, hoping to not be outbid by TBN or other operators.
- Make payment on full-powered allotment for winning the auction.
- File application for new permit for full-powered operation.
- Receive construction permit.
- If you're not broke by this point in the process, build out your full-powered signal.

They cannot just request to go higher. 15 kW is their limit. Plus, since they already own KKYK-DT in Camden, it might put them over the ownership limit to build another full-powered station in the Little Rock DMA.

- Trip

steveken

08-14-09, 02:48 PM

Interesting. So, lack of forethought might have been to blame? Oh well, IF people want to watch their channel, they will find a way. I just wish they would get Sunday Cardinals games off of it and onto a channel that can actually do HD from KSDK and people can actually get. One day maybe.

haley-SEA

08-14-09, 04:58 PM

arxaw

08-14-09, 05:41 PM

steveken, eyesore is in the eye of the beholder.
Do I detect a little antenna envy? :)

Arkyman

08-14-09, 05:49 PM

I think rooftop antennas and antenna arrays are a beautiful sight to behold:D

steveken

08-14-09, 05:53 PM

FWIW, I can receive these digital channels from Palmyra in rural Lincoln County (near Star City)

Little Rock
2-n KETS (7)
4-n KARK (32)
7-n KATV (22)
11-n KTHV (12)
16-n KLRT (30)
25-n KVTN (24)
36-n KKAP (36)*--most of the time, its there but I never watch.
38-n KASN (39)
42-n KARZ (44)

El Dorado
10-n KTVE (27) NBC
12-n KETZ (10) AETN/PBS

and these Little Rock analog LPTV's (quality varies from just there to watchable)
K34FH ch34 (TBN)
KKYK-CA ch 20 (Tuff TV....at least for this week ;) )

Of course there are other stations I get part time from other markets depending on weather (from Memphis, Greenville MS, Shreveport, and even Springfield MO)

The cable companies have done a great job of conning the American people that antennas are ugly and "outdated". And the subdivsions/gated communites and certain demographics have drank their kool aid. Thankfully I'm in a rural area where these outdoor antennas are not only not unusual but quite common (no CC&R's here). These same cable companies have yet to build any cable infrastructure out to this area. Since I'm now getting DSL from my local telco (CenturyTel), the cable companies have lost their final chance to get their hooks in me if they wanted to build out here.

Besides DXing for an antenna viewer its more choices. Dish only offers KARK, KATV, KTHV, and KLRT in HD (and requires an additional dish for LR DMA HD channels). With a OTA antenna I can get all those plus HD network programming from KASN, and KARZ (and on rare occasions, KETS/KETZ) plus subchannels. Last night, I could have swung my antenna array south to view KTVE since KARK was airing the syndicated Cowboys preseason game. If I lived 20 miles further Southeast, I would never have issues with wanting to watch Lost in HDTV since I would be in range of another ABC affiliate. Even though I have the occaisional rain fade, there are no rain fades with OTA.

As for my "ugly" antenna: its a old-style CM 4228 for UHF and a Winegard YA 1713 yagi for high-VHF (its only 100" long). Both are connected to a CM 7777 preamp and on a rotor.
I am not real sure about the additional dish for the LR stuff off Dish anymore. My dad had them come out not too long ago for something and now he only has one dish. I think he might have gotten rid of the second one on purpose. He might have intentionally lost channels too. Dunno. All I know is he says he only has one dish now.

LOL, "only" 100 inches long.......thats fricken hillarious (only cause what I say a little further down)! "Yeah, I have to use an over 8 foot long antenna to watch TV over the air. Oh, and I still need an amplifier and a rotor to turn the behemoth when I wanna watch something a little different."

A lot of the subdivisions and home owners associations have the rules about the outdoor antennas for the simple fact that they want to keep the area as decluttered as possible. They even have rules about people parking boats in yards, cars not in driveways, etc. A lot of people just think it looks a bit nicer when you don't have a lot of protrusions from the structure. As minimalistic as can be. There are some people out there that would crap a golden brick if they had something like that on their house. My wife is one of them. She has a little bit of an OCD problem with things and has to have things looking as best as they can most of the time. Let's put it this way, if there is a tissue box on the table, it HAS to be squared with the edge. I will go turn it occasionally as a test, she goes right behind me and fixes it. LOL

Antennas can be VERY ugly, but they can also be hidden very well and be quite tasteful. They don't HAVE to be huge and shiny and obvious. And, based solely on what is now available with satellite, Internet TV, and ugh, even cable, they kinda are outdated. Most people don't consider DBS dishes as antennas even though they really are.

Anyway, depending on who you are, where you live, and what you are willing to put up with and spend on equipment, antennas may not be that bad. For other people, its like putting a rusted out, rotting ancient car up on blocks in the middle of your manicured front lawn.