I have seen so many threads dedicated to the AnthemAVM20, and B&K Ref50, but not one thread dedicated to the Sunfire Theater Grand III. So I decided to start one. This is a place for owners, and soon to be owners to ask questions, share info, give advice, share their like's and dislike's etc.

What do you all think???

Fine idea! I'll start with a little nugget. Will the firewire port (1394) be able to be used for input from DVD-Audio/SACD players in the future, now that a standard has been agreed upon? With the great software upgrdability of this pre-amp/pro I hope so!

Probably no one has any real info on this but I'm throwin' it out there!

iamnotmad,

Welcome! It's great having you on board. From what I have heard, the 1394 firewire port will indeed be able to support digital Hi-Rez DVD-Audio/SACD.

I'm curious about the holographic image processing, what do you all think of the way it sounds?

The holographic imaging does create a slightly wider soundfield....but I tend to steer clear of DSP modes in the first place, so I rarely ever use it. It's a nice little feature, but I wouldn't exactly term it "incredible" or "wildly successful" like the Sunfire press releases do.

I like the auto switching feature of the TGIII, but I also rarely use it because it tends to switch signals when I don't want it to sometimes.

Overall though, I love my TGIII.....and I NEED to. The wife won't let me buy another processor for a LONG time. :D

R8der

Originally posted by ohyeah32
I'm curious about the holographic image processing, what do you all think of the way it sounds?

Thanks for the welcome!

That's great news about the 1394 port, I do not have a universal player yet, I'm waiting to see what happens with that and make sure I get one that supports the digital out! Great!

As far as the Holographic mode - I agree with R8dr pretty much. I steer clear of DSP modes for most applications, especially stereo cd listening. I have tried it, and would probably use it if I thought it made big enough of a difference, it does not seem to. That and I understand the listening position tolerances are VERY small.

Here's one, not specific to the TGIII but I have found the NEO:6 mode great for regular TV. TV is hardly ever critical listening, and have traditionally stayed away from DSP modes for it too, but NEO:6 has impressed me. I don't watch a lot of TV, but when I do it's usually Law and Order or something similar that's dialog heavy. NEO:6 does a nice job of using my center channel.

Good Idea! I too am a very satisfied TGIII owner. One question. I get some audio dropout on HD. I have a Sony HD200 and some say the unit is the problem, some say the Pre/pro is too picky. What is your experience?

I am going to make the jump into separates soon, and the TGIII is on my list. What amps do you guys use?

First off, thank you all for helping to get this thread off to a good start, let's keep those posts coming.

R8der and iamnotmad,

Thanks for your input regarding the Holographic imaging, and iamnotmad have you compared Pro Logic II and Neo:6? Did you prefer Neo:6 over Pro Logic II?

elbig,

I wish I had an answer regarding the audio dropouts on HD. I haven't upraded to HD yet, but will be soon. I'm sure there's someone reading that can give you some help.

richk05,

I'm using a Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature II for the main five channels, and will soon be using a Sonance Sonamp 5150 amp for the rear center surrounds and side axis speakers.


I have a TGIII on order, and it should hopefully be arriving today. I really did my research before I finally decided on this unit. If it did arrive, I will be posting my own thought's on the TGIII after using it over the weekend. Stay tuned.

SV

Originally posted by elbig
Good Idea! I too am a very satisfied TGIII owner. One question. I get some audio dropout on HD. I have a Sony HD200 and some say the unit is the problem, some say the Pre/pro is too picky. What is your experience?

I watch HD from two different sources going through the TGIII, and have never had a dropout problem that I could attribute to the Pre/Pro. I'd definitely be looking at your STB as the culprit here.

Chris

Originally posted by richk05
I am going to make the jump into separates soon, and the TGIII is on my list. What amps do you guys use?

I'm using the Sunfire Cinema Grand Sig II for the main 5 channels, and a Sunfire Cinema Grand I for the rear surrounds and Zone 2 channel (outdoor speakers). Yeah, it's overkill....but this is my number one hobby so why the hell not! :D

Now if only I had speakers I didn't think would blow up if I turn it up too loud. Hell, I blew up two woofers about 2 years ago during Saving Private Ryan.....I'm due to blow up a couple more woofers soon.

R8der

I use Sunfire Cinema Grand II for 5 channels. Bi-wired using both current and voltage outputs on the amp. Sounds great!

As far as Neo:6 Vs. DPLII, I have compared them, and I liked Neo:6 much better.

Well, i'm a little bummed, my TGIII didn't come in today like I hoped it would:( . Oh well, maybe next week.

bump.

I have a couple questions - or confirmations rather. If a speaker is set to large, the crossover setting has absoutely no effect on the particular speaker - as in it gets a full range sent to it - regardless of any other settings. Is that correct?

Also if that's true, if you set your front mains to large, and are listening to a 2 channel source, nothing gets sent to the subwoofer even if "enhanced bass" is on, correct?

One other thing - I think there's a little bug in 3.0 - in that if you shut the on screen display off (I don't like the volume adjustment to show on screen) then when you turn the TGIII off then on the last word shows on screen "Grand". The only way to get it off is to go into the menu or hit the info button on the remote.

Something I'd lke to see in a future software upgrade would be independantly setable crossover for each channel, or at least the front 3.

Oh! one more thing - Anyone have a good email fro sunfire to send questions/suggestions?

Thanks everyone!

I believe that even if you set your front L/R speakers to large, some info is still sent to your sub. I know on a particular CD of mine that it has way too much bass....to the point it drives my wife nuts. I remember playing that CD recently and having to turn off the sub during the first track...that is loaded with bass.

I'll test it out again tomorrow to be sure. The wife is asleep now and...well....talk about driving her nuts... :D

I've not seen the bug in 3.0, but then I rarely watch anything via the composite inputs, so I rarely see the onscreen display. Guess I'm glad they didn't make the onscreen display work with the component inputs.

I like your idea of independant crossovers for each channel....but I doubt they'd implement that since they likely feel the "large/small" option is good enough.

Still, it's worth mentioning to them. Sunfire does have e-mail but they prefer not to use it. They prefer to receive phone calls. If you want to ask questions or pursue other options for future software upgrades, simply call the number on their website and ask for Engineering. I've called and talked with them numerous times, and they are always willing to chat for as long as you like.

Chris

I'm really enjoying my TGIII. The only issue I have had is the auto sensing seems sporadic. Sometimes it works great and sometimes it doesn't seem to work at all. Worse case, is that it switches on when you turn the sending unit (like a DVD player) off (vs on). Since my amps are tied to the unit (via 12 volt trigger) to turn on, this is a real pain. For some reason this seems to be worse with the last release of code. I've gotten to the point where I pretty much don't use it anymore. I really like the PLII for music and sat watching. The component switching is really cool and I'm glad it has two outputs. I have each feeding into my RPTV and have set them up (in the RPTV) with a slightly different brightness/contrast setting depending on what source I am watching. I'm thinking about switching to Balanced interconnects (I have a Sunfire amp). SJ

SJ,

I had so many problems with the auto-signal sensing feature that I don't use it anymore. It's too bad...it really is sweet when it works like you want it to.

A question.....on the component outputs....are both signals live at all times? I'm guessing yes, but I wanted to confirm.

Chris

SJHT,

I haven't heard of anyone else having those issues, but i'm sure if there is, they will post it here. I'm sorry to hear that you aren't able to use the full auto function, as this is one of the neat features that sets this unit apart from the crowd. A while back you mentioned in another thread that when Sunfire first made the v3.0 software download available, they were having some problems with it. Because of this they removed the v3.0 download from their site temporarily. Did this problem start after you downloaded the 3.0 software? Was it the previous 3.0, or the current 3.0 that you downloaded? What has Sunfire said about this problem? My TGIII is supposed to be coming with a v3.0 CD. I'll let you know how the full auto mode work's after I do the update.

iamnotmad,

I also was curious if Sunfire has an e-mail, but after looking high and low on their website I found nothing. But I did come across an Email for Sunfire by accident. I was reading a review of the TGIII over at audiorevolution and found this Email address:

info@sunfire.com


I think they have some more, i'll just have to keep my eyes peeled.

SV

SV,

They really don't like to respond to e-mail. One of the guys I have spoken with numerous times gave me his e-mail address, but he said he would really rather talk on the phone. I've always found them very receptive to phone calls.....but I've had a few e-mails that they never responded to. I'd really suggest everybody rely on the phone.

On the auto-signal sensing feature, it's been a problem for me regardless of what software version I was using. I think what's happening is if I leave my Sat receiver on but switch to DVD, the DVD hits a layer change or some other dead spot and the TGIII switches back to the Sat dish because it still has an active signal. I've simply found it much less annoying to do all my switching manually.

Chris

R8der,

Thanks for the info regarding e-mailing Sunfire, though it's kinda strange how they don't really like receiving e-mails. Regarding the auto sensing mode, I guess I may not have a problem with that since my sat receiver's optical out turns off with the sat receiver.

About the Sonic Holography....

To those of you who say you get a slightly wider sound stage, or you prefer to not use the DSP surround modes....

You're not getting it. By that I'm NOT saying you are clueless. I'm saying you are not receiving the effect of sonic holography.

When you get it, it's *not* subtle. It's an epiphany. And it's not a slightly wider sound stage. It's a 3 dimensional one that you can precisely locate the instruments, a sound stage that is front to back, not just wider.

If you *think* you are getting the illusion, you don't have it. You know it when you have it.

What's the problem with it? The problem is 0% of the people who say they have tried it will ever rearrange the position of their home theater speakers as is required to produce the effect. Activating the sonic holography mode you can hear a processing difference even if the speakers are set up wrong. Different processing, yes, from anywhere...but not 3D holography.

The speakers need to be away from the walls, 3-5 feet from the side walls, and 3-5 feet in front of the rear wall, at ear level. The distance from each speaker to the listening position has to be within 1/4 inch, and 1/8 is better. C'mon, you know you haven't done this, so spare me the skepticism. Speakers closer together work better than wider apart. The listener does not have to be centered to the same degree as the measurement above, but the distance from the listener to the speakers again...1/4 inch.

I do not have a Sunfire Theater Grand III. But sonic holography is the reason why it is on my short list of pre-pros. I do have a 15 year old Carver C1 stereo preamp with sonic holography.

Like most of you, I thought it was a gimmick when I first tried it. Switched it on a few times, thought I heard something different, nothing major. Only after reading the theory, the analogy to laser interferometry to produce 3D holographic visual images, the concept of coherent beams, constructive/destructive interference.

I built an entire live end/dead end sound room around the concept of canceling the near reflections from side walls, rear walls using fabric covered, rigid architectural fiberglass panels. You don't have to go to that trouble to achieve an impressive, satisfying effect. But you do have to carefully align, measure the speaker distance to the listener within 1/8-1/4 inch.

I had but (2) front stereo speakers. I'd demo the sonic holography, and people would start looking around, move their head from side to side, front to back, sit up, stand up, and usually end up asking where the other speakers were.

http://vsdrives.com/graphics/basement.jpg

I briefly chatted with someone at Sunfire about the auto sensing issue. However, I was calling about something else (the version upgrade). The guy I spoke with didn't think they were related. I have upgraded to the newest V3.0 of the software. Same issues. I'm going to wait for the next release and see if anything happens. The issue is that I'm NOT going to send the unit back if it is a problem. I already had to send my unit back to them for another issue (I had an early software release that bombed when I upgraded leaving me dead in the water. This is something they have fixed in the newer releases...). When the unit was back, I noticed on the work order that they replaced some auto sensing components. The unit worked pretty well until the last upgrade. Not having this feature is not that big of a deal for me as my remote/macros do everything anyway. But it would be nice if it worked as occasionally I like to just walk up to my equipment and manually turn on a component (like the DVD player, etc.) It would be great if the Sunfire would fire up and switch to the input, etc. I am only using digital and component connections. Not sure if this has something to do with it. I guess I could hook up a few analog/composite cables and see if it would help. Other than this issue, this unit works great. SJ

Noticed today that Sunfire now has V3.05 available. I installed it and now auto sensing seems to be working again. At least for the 10 or so times that I just tried it! They also added the owners manual to the website. Don't know if anybody has had any upgrade issues. But for the last couple of times, I have had to apply the upgrade twice for it to take. The first time it just keeps flashing "SUCCESS PUSH POWER (or something)". After hitting the power button, it just keeps giving the message. Finally you have to unplug the unit to clear the message. The second time I tried updating, when I hit the POWER button, it indicates that it is updating and flashes the new version when complete. Oh well.....

Thanks for the heads up on the new revision - I love that they are working to improve the product!

Thanks to ohyeah32 for starting this thread - great idea!

I have had some problems with the auto sensing feature, but have managed to figure out how to work around them.

I find if I turn off the TGIII first before turning off the source component it works properly.

If I turn the source component off first and then turn off the TGIII, the TGIII seem to turn on when the source component is turned off. I'm currently running 3.0 - I'll check if 3.05 fixes this.

I also had to turn off the sat receiver for auto-sensing to work. It emits a signal even when off.

I have not had any issues with autio drop-outs using HD with an EchoStar receiver.

I'm considring the TGP III. Do any of you owners use it with DirecTivo's or UTV-like devices? I'm wondering how the auto-sensing works with these devices, which like to power themselves on in order to record programs that they're configured to record. Would the auto-sense switch from, say, a DVD I'm watching to the Sat tuner when the UTV wakes up to record something? That would be annoying.

Couple more questions: does the Sunfire provide (optional) analog bass management for N.1 analog input? I don't think it does, but I'd like to confirm. Finally, how does the unit sound with (unprocessed) 2-channel CD audio, compared, say, to the B&K Ref 50?

JS

You can enable or disable auto sense for each individual source, so you could disable it for your TIVO device.

No DSP on the analogue 5.1 inputs.

I haven't heard the B&K Ref 50, so can't comment on sound comparisons. The TGIII does have a Direct option for analogue sources (works only if main speakers are set to large) that bypasses all DSP processing. I don't use this as I prefer the DACS in the TGIII to that in my source components.

Dan Krieg,

Thank you also for sharing your input on this thread, and a thanks to everyone who have helped to keep this thread going.

SV

I'm leaning toward an Anthem AVM20. I have a Sunfire Cinema Grand II amp that I'm quite happy with, so I wanted to consider the TGIII before going for the Anthem.

Questions that I hope owners/those who demo'd the unit can clear up for me:
1. I will use in a dedicated theater/listening room. I have a 7.x setup (flexibility on the number of subs). I have three rows of seating and want/need a THX Ultra2-like processing to provide 7.1 channels from a 5.1 soundtrack. Does the TGIII have a mode that does this? If so, what are your impressions of its effect? I know that it has the "holographic" imaging, but does this work to take 5.1 to 7.1, or does it go all the way to 9.1? (I have no interest in adding two more side speakers to get 9.1). Also, does the holographic processing change the character/info of the front channels (my understanding is that Ultra2 only affects the rear channels)?

1.5 Related to the 7.x question is the implementation of the subs. I see that the TGIII has three sub outs. Do they all carry the same signal or can I, for example, send rear bass info to a rear sub only (sort of like what looks to be possible on the Halo's)?

2. I would like something that also gives excellent 2-channel or 5.1-channel (via SACD or DVD-A analog inputs) performance for music. Any anecdotes that owners or those who demo'd the units for this purpose wish to share?

Oh yeah -- thanks for starting this thread.

It looks like v3.05 has cleared up my auto-sense issues.

JansonATL
1. As far as my understaning goes, Sonic Hologhraphy is only intended for 2 channel material. See the on-line manual at www.sunfire.com for a full explanation. According to the manual the extra 2 channels to make 9.1 are stereo outputs, so I'm guessing they would send the same signal as the left and right mains.

1.5 All sub outs carry the same line level signal.

2.0 No experience.

I have used the TGIII playing both SACDs and DVD-Audios. It sounds fantastic. However, I have nothing else to compare it to! I'm running a Pioneer 47a as my source player. I think DVD-Audio (on this player) has a slight edge over SACDs. SJ

Keep in mind that for the immediate future, all DVD-Audio and SACD's discs will use the DVD players D/A converter.....so the difference in how one processor sounds vs. another won't be very extreme. The major factor the processor will affect will be in the area of bass management. Outside of that I'd expect the Anthem and the TGIII to sound pretty much the same.

Having said that.....DVD-Audio freaking ROCKS! It's made me look down my nose at all those lowly CD's I own. One major immediate effect.....I stopped buying CD's for the most part.

Chris

I have a question. I'm not sure that it would make any difference at all but would using two of the subwoffer outs going into the left/right of a subwoofer input be any differnent than running from one output and using a Y connector?

Could running two be bad for either component?
Thanks!

If you use a Y connector, the load impedance seen by the processor will be halved, thereby doubling the required output current and power from the processor output. It's not likely to be a problem at all, but still using two subwoofer outputs would be preferred since you have them.

Originally posted by Tom Roper
If you use a Y connector, the load impedance seen by the processor will be halved, thereby doubling the required output current and power from the processor output. It's not likely to be a problem at all, but still using two subwoofer outputs would be preferred since you have them.

Interesting. I have a TGIII (obviously) and it has 3 sub outs actually. All identical according to the manual. I also have a sunfire subwoofer. Suprisingly the sub manual recomends either using a Y connector or just running 1 line in to the left (mono) input. I guess the sub manual is assuming you only have 1 sub out on your pro/pro and this is why it is not recommneding running 2 outs from pro/pro to sub?

Also, stange that most specific "subwoofer" cables have Y connectors.

So just to clarify, your saying it would actually definately be recommended to run two identical sub outs into the one subwoofer's left/right ins?

Thanks for the info.

I misunderstood your original question. Your subwoofer has L,R inputs, and thus appears to be combining L+R information from stereo outputs, and handling the crossover frequency.

So the answer is just run ONE line to the subwoofer mono input (L channel) from one subwoofer output of the Sunfire processor.

Sorry for the confusion.

Well, my TGIII finally came in. My overall impession is that I really like it,but i'm having a few issues with it. Bass output for DD,DD-EX,DTS,DTS-ES, is very weak. I even turned the SW level up 5db on the TGIII, but am still getting very poor bass output. I set the speakers to small, and selected SW on. Is there anything i'm not doing? Have any of you had similar problems?

Bass output for CD playback on the other hand is superb, the bass was so intense on some CD's that I had to reduce the SW level on the TGIII to -2. I was a bit bummed when I found out that the firmware version in my TGIII is v2.18. I was really hoping that at least the v3.0 CD would have been included(oh well). Looks like i'm going to have to call Sunfire and have them send me the the update CD's.

I really hope that there is something I can do about the lack of bass issue. Any help you all can give will be most wecome.:)

SV

ohyeah32

Glad to hear you finally got it. I know you'll be happy.

I seem to remember bass was a little weak with DD on mine running v2.18 as well. I didn't have a DTS compatible DVD player at the time, so can't comment on DTS.

I have the sub level set to +6, but my sub also has a level control, so the +6 setting doesn't really mean much.

I'm now on v3.05 and the bass with DD/DTS is superb.

Keep in mind that there are 2 LFE settings for DTS (cinema/music) in the modes menu and for music there is a 10db reduction in the LFE output, so you might want to check this setting.

You should try and get v3.05 as soon as you can. It's cleared up a few issues for me and the sound quality seems to have improved with it. If you have a laptop or can get access to one, it's a really easy way to upgrade.

Dan

Did you turn on the "Enhanced Bass" feature in the menu? If you didn't....I'm certain that enabling this will solve your problem.

EDIT: Actually, I just read the Sunfire website and the Enhanced Bass feature doesn't effect the DD or DTS sound. Not sure what the issue is with your lack of Bass. Could it be your DVD player has Bass Management enabled?

In looking at the Sunfire website, I see they released 3.06 today.

Chris

My bass output was weak until I upgraded the software to 2.18, however, once I did this I began to have audio dropouts on dvd's and on the audio from my Tivo. Version 3.0 seems to have cured the dropout problem.

According to the manual, the enhanced bass option only works when speakers are set to large as well as only on 2 channel material.

I'm wondering if it is a good strategy to release SO many upgrades for the TGIII. It is great to get new stuff, but it makes you wonder about quality assurance processes. SJ

It seems interesting that they didn't mention fixing the auto sensing with V3.05. With TWO people on this forum having the same problem.... it is not a coincident! Makes you wonder how many things they are fixing behind the scenes which are caused by upgrades. Guess the engineers are controlling the upgrades (vs. marketing). I'm not complaining..... SJ

The on screen display problem I noticed in 3.0 was fixed in 3.0 was fixed in 3.05 as well. It was not listed as a fix either. The updates are not required, but I love that they continue to work to improve the preamp. I have not installed 3.06 yet - changes seem minimal.

I say, keep on updating, and thanks!

Dan Krieg, R8der, hessel holland,

Thanks guys for your input regarding the bass issues i'm having. I tried the things you all mentioned, but still no improvement. I should be receiving the v3.05 CD soon, and I hope this corrects the problem. If it doesn't, i'll call Sunfire and ask them what the problem may be. I'm hoping that I didn't receive a faulty TGIII, but if it is i'll send this one back and have them ship me another one. I'll keep you posted if the new software makes a difference.

SV

I just got off the phone with Sunfire tech support, and the bass issue has been corrected!. It seems that for some reason the TGIII needed to be reset. Bass with movies is just wonderful now. I guess the only thing I wish the TGIII could do is store bass settings independantly for each input. That way I could have the bass level lower for CD, and higher for DVD. Do you think this could be done with a firmware update??

SV

ohyeah32
Saving separate level adjustments by digital source type is probably a question of how much memory they have in the processor more than anything else aside from programming the functionality.

This sounds like a nice feature to have, although for me the levels seem correct right across the board. Maybe you could put in an enhancement request with Sunfire?

A while back, I posted a thread dealing with mono digital sources and Dolby Pro-Logic matrix mode. Can you check it on yours?

Does anyone know if or when the Ultimate Receiver is/will be available? Also, from the specs, it doesn't look too different from the TGIII processor wise. The only significant thing I can see is that the receiver doesn't have balanced outputs.

One more thing,

Does anyone have a good understanding of how the side-axis speakers work and are to be used? Do they re-enforce the front speakers for height, or are they strictly to make front to back pans more seamless? Assuming a rectangular room, say 14ft wide by 18ft deep by 8ft high, where would you place the side-axis speakers?

The Ultimate Receiver is available now. I saw it in a local store a couple of months ago and again last week when I finally had time to do an audition. I like it and plan to get one next month. But then again I don't consider myself knowledgable in this area so my opinion probably is only good for myself.

Also, the Ultimate Receiver Manual is available for download on Sunfire website. You may find answers to some of your questions there.

Dan Krieg,

I'm not sure about mono digital sources and Dolby Pro-Logic matrix mode, although I will look into this as soon as I get a chance. I'll definitely let you know what I find out.

SV

Dan Krieg,

I finally got a chance to try out the Dolby Pro Logic Matrix mode on some mono digital sources, it never worked on them. And after pressing the info button on the remote, all it would say is "mono" on the display window. I'm not sure if this feature is for analog sources only. When I can, i'll connect the 2 channel analog out's from my DVD player to the TGIII, and see if PLII Matrix work's on analog mono sources. I'll keep you posted on the results.

SV

I've got a qustion for anyone that might know. The other night when I was connecting a few things to the TGIII, I noticed a flashing green light on the inside of the unit. It's located on the right rear side, you can see it through the vents on the right side. Does anyone know what this is for? Is this normal?

SV

ohyeah32

I don't think that the matrix mode setting is intended for analog sources only. In the section where it is mentioned in the manual there is no distinction made.

Can I suggest you call Sunfire and log it as a problem? You can quote me in saying that I have called and reported the problem as well. Also the service rep I talked to suggested I try a system reset. I did this and nothing changed.

I don't know what your green light is about - I've always had the power off when making connections to the TGIII.

Dan

Originally posted by ohyeah32
I've got a qustion for anyone that might know. The other night when I was connecting a few things to the TGIII, I noticed a flashing green light on the inside of the unit. It's located on the right rear side, you can see it through the vents on the right side. Does anyone know what this is for? Is this normal?

SV

Funny you mentioned this - I just noticed that myself the other day. I would assume it's normal. It appears more like a slow blink rather than flashing (prob what you meant?)

I received the V3.06 software CD, and I installed it 2 days ago. I calibrated the speakers with the default calibration noise generator(enabled with the new software), and now movie soundtracks really come to life. The only thing i've noticed is that bass output with CD playback is a bit extreme. I have to use the "on the fly trim" option and reduce the sub level by 7db(sometimes more). This is getting a bit annoying having to reduce the sub level everytime I want to listen to CD's. Is there anyone else having this problem? I wonder if sunfire can correct this problem via a firmware fix? Besides this issue, I am really enjoying my TGIII. I hope they keep offering new ways to improve it.:)

Just in case anyone was curious,I haven't had any problems with the full auto operation mode(it's working flawlessly).

SV

ohyeah32

How did you calibrate your sub? In my set-up, using the test tone generator and the RS analog meter, the levels for the sub were about the same as for the rest of the speakers. I know there are some recommendations about setting the sub 3-4 db higher than the other levels.

Sub levels seem to be right for me in CD playback, but that could just my personal preference.

ps Did you read my post above re mono digital sources?

I also have a slowly blinking green light inside the unit. I don't think its anything to be concerned about.

I seem to have a slight video disturbance whenever the TGIII has to switch audio input mode, like when switching from stereo to DD5.1.

Also, I just got the avia test dvd and on one of the audio tests with the center channel - the video was blinking on and off as the test was switching some audio parameters. I am usign the svideo output by the way. Sorry I don't remember which test it was right now - i'll post mroe specifically when I have a chance to take a look.

Has anyone (maybe only on s-video) experienced any video funkiness which switching audio modes or something similar? I hate to think that there is something wrong with the pre-amp - it could be my old, old dvd player I suppose. I'll have to try another player.

Thanks.

Dan Krieg,

I did indeed read your post regarding mono digital sources. I looked through the owners manual, and you're right, it doesn't say that PLII Matrix is for analog sources only(it doesn't specify digital or analog). It's strange that it has it in the manual that PLII Matrix is for mono sources, yet it doesn't work with them. I will call Sunfire soon, and let them know about this also. For me it's not a major issue, but if it has that capability it should work.

For calibrating my subs I used a SPL meter with the test tone generator. I have the sub level set a bit higher that the rest of the speakers, as I find this setting works best for movies. I guess for now I'm just going to have to find a happy medium for movies and music playback, even if the bass level is a little lower for movies.

iamnotmad,

Right now I don't have any video sources connected to the TGIII, so I can't comment on the video disturbance you mentioned. But just for the heck of it, i'll connect some video sources(via S-video) to the TGIII just to see what happens. I'll let you know soon.

SV

iamnotmad
I haven't noticed any video anomolies with the TGIII. However, I don't use the S-video. All I've got connected is component for DVD and Sat and 1 composite that I use for for TGIII setup and VCR.

I have gone through all of the audio tests on AVIA and didn't notice anything odd using component video.

Originally posted by iamnotmad
I seem to have a slight video disturbance whenever the TGIII has to switch audio input mode, like when switching from stereo to DD5.1.

Also, I just got the avia test dvd and on one of the audio tests with the center channel - the video was blinking on and off as the test was switching some audio parameters. I am usign the svideo output by the way. Sorry I don't remember which test it was right now - i'll post mroe specifically when I have a chance to take a look.

Has anyone (maybe only on s-video) experienced any video funkiness which switching audio modes or something similar? I hate to think that there is something wrong with the pre-amp - it could be my old, old dvd player I suppose. I'll have to try another player.

Thanks.

Hey guys, thanks for the help. It looks like it was my dvd player. I hoooked up another player and it works fine. No video funkiness. That's a relief. That old dvd player is barely hanging on. :) It's been a good machine.

I was reading through the TGIII software revision list and was curious about something. For software V3.0 it states:

Improved FLASH update to include display of code revision at first power up after loading code (does this only once at first power up)

Does this mean that it display's the new revision code only one time after the new software has been installed, or is it supposed to display the revision code at each power up?


iamnotmad,

I'm glad to hear that the problem wasn't your TGIII.:)

SV

ohyeah32
It only displays the revision 1 time on the first power-up after you load the software. After that, it doesn't show up anymore.

Dan,

Thanks for clarifying this for me.

Does anyone know if the TGIII is a true balanced design(offering true differential outputs)or are the Balanced outputs implemented by inverting one side of a single-ended signal path(not balanced)? I'm curious about this, as I purchased 5 balanced XLR cables, to take advantage of these outputs. I hope that I didn't throw my money away buying these cables.

SV

ohyeah32
Interesting post as I am now awaiting delivery of the XLR cables I ordered last week.

I don't know if the TGIII is a true balanced design or not. I do believe that the Sunfire Cinema Grand I am using is not.

The main reasons I thought I'd give it a try anyway are:
1) The cables I found were quite inexpenseive - $12.95 list each. Ordered on-line at www.markertek.com (I did some research and these cables are based on Canare parts - pretty decent quality).
2) I'll do a comparison between the XLR's and my unbalanced interconnects. If I like the XLR's better, I can use my old interconnects for DVD-AUDIO.

Good luck.

The XLR's arrived yesterday and they are staying.

With the cables the highs (cymbals, etc.) seemed clearer and better defined. Also, the center image seemed to lock in better. I had to get up a couple of times to check that the center channel was off in stereo listening.

These cables from Markertek are great. 12 USD each, Canare wire and Neutrink connectors. Excellent value!

Dan,

Thanks for sharing your impressions of your new XLR cables. I also noticed an improvement using the XLR's vs the RCA's. The cables i'm using are Cobalt Cables Ultimate Balanced Cable. The Cobalts use a Belden cable with Neutrik connectors. What are your thought's on Belden cable?

SV

SV

I don't have any experience with the Cobalt cables - they sure look nice though.

What sort of sonic improvements did you notice? What amp are you using?

Dan

Dan,

The soundstage improved, providing better dynamics, detail, and better imaging. At times I also had to check to see if the center channel was off, as there was a very convincing center image. The amp is a Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature II. What amp do you use?

SV

SV

I use a Cinema Grand (original version). I've had it for over 2 years now.

Dan

Dan,

Just curious, what speakers do you have in your setup? I have Martin Logans.

SV

SV

I use Monitor Audio Silver and Infinity HPS-1000 sub.

Dan

Just a question for anyone who might know. Yesterday just for kicks I decided to try switching to tuner, I never listen to radio, but was just checking the different inputs. I then noticed something really strange when I switched over to tuner, no sound at all. I then tried raising and lowering the volume, and then the sound kicked in, but it took it's time doing so. I then switched to another input, then back again, same thing happened. Has anyone else expirienced this?

SV

SV

I have never tried the tuner, so I thought I'd give this a try. Here's what I found.

At first, I had the exact symptom. I switched to tuner from another input and silence until I moved the tuner frequency or changed the volume.

Then I tried programming a station (I had none preset), so I upped the fm frequency one notch and saved that as a preset. Then I switched to DVD and back to tuner. Immediate sound.

I then switched to another preset button (one that wasn't programmed) - no sound.

Switched back to the preset I saved and there was immediate sound.

I'm guessing that they have built in a muting switch for frequencies that have not been preset to protect your system from hiss unless you choose a preset you have configured or change the volume setting.

Dan

Dan,

I guess that would make sense, having a muting switch as a safety feature. I'll also try going up one notch on the FM frequency, and then saving it as a preset, and then see what happens. I'll let you know what the results are. Thanks for your reply, and for your help.

SV

Dan,

I preset a couple of stations, then switched sources, then went back to tuner, and it worked. Now there's sound. Thanks again for the tip.

SV

The TGIII is on my short list. Question. Does it have any sort of cinema equalization similar to REEQ or THX processing?

Mad Chemist,

The TGIII does not have any Cinema Re-Eq or THX processing. THX processing for me was not very important, although I do wish that it did offer Cinema Re-Eq. Who knows, maybe in the near future they will offer an upgrade for that.

SV

I was just curious what setting you all have the crossover at on your TGIII? Would 90 or 100hz work better than 80?

ohyeah32

I've got mine set at 80. I find that if Iget much higher than that, I can start to localize the bass coming from my sub.

Dan

I've got mine set at 60, it totally depends on your speakers and sub. I like the versatility of the TGIII in that it can go as low as 40. I'm still experimenting with this myself, but things are sounding pretty good right now.

Dan Krieg, iamnotmad,

Thanks for your input.

SV

New TGIII review:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_2/sunfire-theater-grand-three-4-2003.html

Dan Krieg,

Thank's Dan for the link, they gave it a pretty positive review. In the end it seemed like the reviewer kind of favored the TGIII's sound over that of the B&K Ref 30. The TGIII is one heck of a unit, and I am enjoying it more and more each time I listen to it.:D

SV

I was just curious if any of you TGIII owners have photos of your setup's?

I recently added mine at webshots, I'll soon be adding some more pix. Here's the link:

http://community.webshots.com/user/ohyeah32

I'm also including another link just in case the link above doesn't work. It's system #13 at the Martin Logan Club.

http://www.martinloganowners.com/memsys.html

SV

ohyeah32

I tried your photo link, but got an error "You do not appear to be the owner of this album. Make sure you are logged in."

You could post your photos in the members area here.

In regards to the review, yes I think he preferred the TGIII over the Ref30. I've been waiting for that review for a long time as I really have a lot of respect for the folks at hometheaterhifi.com. I was actually in contact with them before I bought my unit last October and they told me they were working on the review then. One of the few reviewers that consistently has actual measurements besides only subjective comments.

It's also pretty obvious that they were using a unit with an old firmware revision (no audio group delay) which has been added since. I'm also pretty sure that Sunfire will be getting a copy of this review and will try to address some of the short comings that were discovered (no auto detect for DD-EX for example).

Dan

Dan Krieg,

Sorry the link didn't work, I reposted the link along with another link, just in case it doesn't work again.

Regarding the review, it would have been interesting to see what the reviewers comments would have been like with the new firmware installed. With mine I only notice about a 1 or 2 second delay before it changes decoding modes(which is fairly quick). I also trust what the reviewers at hometheaterhifi have to say about the the products they test. They have been very unbiased and detailed in their reviews. Thanks again for sharing.

SV

Ya, interesting review - I think the most exciting and great thing to see is that the sound quality is so great passing through such a feature rich home theater pre-amp. I like to listen to "plain old" stereo cd's a lot and I am glad to see some technical confirmation on what I have experienced. It's nice clean sound from simple to more complex listening evironments/modes/sources (whatever;)

Here is my setup. I hope I know how to include a link from the Photo Gallery.
http://www.avsforum.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=2460&papass=&sort=1&thecat=503

elbig,

Sweeeeet setup. I really like the arrangement, and of course the very nice equipment. Do you use your system strictly for movie watching, or do you also listen to music through it? Thanks for sharing the pix.

Thanks. It is fairly new and we love it. It even passed the WAF test. I definitely listen to music. The Revel speakers are terrific IMOH. I also am very fond of the Meridian 508.24. I haven't tried DVD-A yet.

Bump.

A while back I posted that I was having some problems with the bass output for movie playback. Shortly thereafter I talked with a tech from Sunfire about the problem. He suggested some things, which seemed to have helped. But I still wasn't totally satisfied with the low end.

So after some thought, I realized that possibly I may have a faulty unit. So after using my TGIII for a month, I decided to exchange it for another one. I just received the new TGIII 4 day's ago. I can say one thing, the Bass difference is night and day! Now there's only one problem, the bass issue is fixed but now there 's a new problem, the new TGIII has a very annoying "popping" sound that occurs with DVD playback. The popping is heard when I press play,stop, pause, navigate the disc menu, and even during the layer change. This is something that is definitely "not" acceptable, as I don't want to risk damaging my speakers due to this constant popping.

I talked with Tech support on Fri, and the guy I talked with told me that the popping problem I was having with the TGIII wasn't an isolated case. According to him there have been many owners with brand new TGIII's that are having this very same problem. He said that thay are currently hard at work trying to correct this issue. He told me that he would notify me when the fix was available.

I really hope that they get this fixed very soon. I don't know if any of you have experienced this problem, but your feedback will be much appreciated. Thanks.

SV

Oh man, that's a real bummer, i am sorry to hear that. I, forutnately do not beleive I have this problem... Certainly not that I have noticed. Sounds like it's very obvious. Is it?

I'm still loving the TGIII though, it and my CGII amaze me all the time, even after doing some in-store listening on more expensive stuff!

ohyeah32,
What firmware version do you have? Interesting their comment that they have a fix on the way (seems like this would have to be a firmware upgrade). I do know that they have fixed MANY digital input popping issues with several firmware upgrades. Normally this is an issue in how the output device mutes the digital signal (or not). SJ

iamnotmad,

The popping is very obvious , and at normal movie listening volumes it is quite loud.

SJHT,

The TGIII came pre-installed with V3.06. I'm going to call Sunfire again today and see what else can be done. Maybe they can send me another unit. Worst case scenario is that I'll end up getting my money back and purchase a Parasound Halo C2 instead.

SV

Originally posted by ohyeah32
iamnotmad,

The popping is very obvious , and at normal movie listening volumes it is quite loud.

SV

Yeah, I figured - it's not happening on mine then. Let me know if I can test anything out for you though. Keep us posted as well on the progress of getting yours fixed!

iamnotmad,

I just got off the phone with Sunfire, and they will be sending me a yet another TGIII(I sure hope this one works right). I really like the unit , just not all the problems I've been having with it. I will definitely let you know how this all works out. And thank you for your reply and concern.

SV

ohyeah - that's good news - out of curiosity, do they let you hang on to the one you have until they get you a new one? Then you send it back? And are you having to pay shipping all these times?


On another note - I've been experimenting with the "Holo" mode. I can say for sure that on some cd's it really makes the sound seem more encompasing. I can't say for sure it's good all the time for any 2 ch (regular cd), but I can say for sure that there is a very pleasent improvement in the experience with this on. This is also a unique, exclusive eature of this pre-amp (it and Sunfires UR).

Has anyone else relatively new to it done any experimentation with it?

iamnotmad,

Yes, they did let me hang on to the one I had until the new one arrived, then I sent back the faulty one(had my dealer send it back). So far I haven't had to pay shipping. I tried the Halo mode with all kinds of music, with some I have gotten truly amazing results, and with others the sound was rather flat. So I think it is very source dependent. It is a really cool feature though.

SV

OhYeah32, interesting to read about your DVD popping issues. With the latest software update, I now get a single popping noise when I first turn on the DVD player. That's the only pop I get, but it is quite loud and I've learned to mute the volume whenever I power up the player.

The point is, this didn't occur previously. It was only after a firmware update that I started hearing this. I have notified Sunfire, and they did say they would be looking into it. I'm using the Panasonic RP91....which DVD player do you have OhYeah?

BTW, anybody looking to utilize the IR input on the back side, I successfuly got it to work this weekend. At first I thought it might be a powered input, but it's basically like having an emitter in front of the IR input of the TGIII. If you use a Xantech setup to locate a remote elsewhere (like in your Zone 2 area where I put mine), then the IR input comes in handy. If anybody ever needs help with this, I've made every initial mistake you can make, so I'd be happy to walk you around the minefield.

R8der

R8der,

It is really strange, but with the previous TGIII I had(with v3.06 installed via CD) there were no popping issues at all. The problem I had with that unit was a lack of bass with 5.1 sources. This new one which came with v3.06 pre-installed from the factory, has oodles of bass but has the major popping issues. I have a Yamaha DVD-S2300, which I was also using with the previous 2 TGIII's. Just for the heck of it, I tried out two other DVD players, a pioneer DV 434, and a Toshiba SD-5109. The same popping issue was present with these two players as well. So I can say for sure that the problem I'm having with the TGIII is not due to the DVD player that's used with it.

My new TGIII hasn't come in yet(maybe tomorrow), once I get the new one, I'll let you all know what happens.

SV

Well guys, I just got my replacement TGIII today, and I'm sorry to report that this 3rd unit is also plagued with the popping issue. After 3 faulty units, I'm calling it quits with the TGIII. In a way I'm going to miss it, because there are some really cool features that the TGIII does offer. On the other hand I'm not going to miss the problems I've had with this pre-pro since day one.

I'm definitely going with another brand, I'm just not sure which one yet. I'm seriously considering the Parasound Halo C2, or the Integra Research RDC-7. I'm going to miss sharing stuff about the TGIII with you all, but I hope that all you satisfied TGIII owners will keep this thread going for a long time to come. Take care and happy listening.

SV

That is sad to hear. I wonder why we don't all have that problem? Best of luck. You might as well check out the Anthem AV20 if you are starting over.

ohyeah32

Sorry to hear about your problems. I've got v3.06 on my unit with no popping issues whatsoever. Mind you, its an older unit (last Oct/Nov). Maybe they've introduced something with the newer builds.

Dan

After much research, and calling various dealers, I've opted to go with an Integra Research RDC-7(version 2). There have been so many excellent reviews and many happy owners that I decided to give it a go. The TGIII is a fine pre-pro that I hope you all will enjoy for years to come(I would still be a TGIII owner if I hadn't had the problems with it).

SV

Flash update version 3.09 is now posted at www.sunfire.com


Dan

Dan, thanks for the update.

OhYeah, though it's looking like it's too late, the update mentions fixing some audible popping issues.

iamnotmad,

I know, I just checked out the Sunfire website. If only they had offered a fix sooner. And yeah, it's a tad too late for me as I have already purchased an Integra Reasearch RDC-7,but thanks for keeping me in mind.

Dan,

Thanks for sharing the update info with us.

I kinda miss you all, although I will chime in from time to time just to say hi.

SV

Just thought I'd share a new review of the TGIII with you all just in case you haven't read it already.


http://stereotimes.com/


SV

Thanks for the link SV.

I just installed the new flash update last night. When recalibrating using the internal test tones, I had to turn down the sub 6db from the previous setting.

Anybody else notice this?

Dan

bump

bump

Dan, I have just installed the latest last night - did not immediately notice an increase in bass. I'll should be able to specifically check it out this weekend.

Just installed the new software version on my new UR. I ran into the same thing: had to turn down my sub about 4 dB. Also, all speakers sounded different. I didn't have enough time to really listen to analyze what changed.

After the upgrade, my 11-year old daughter walked in the room and immediately commented "it sounds different. I don't like it!". Also, it created pops when the UR boots up to a certain point, and lounder pops when being turned off. It also pops when another piece of equipment is turned on.

For the version 3.09, Sunfire states : "Eliminated audible clicks and pops from various sources". In my case it is the other way around. I didn't have those problems with 3.06 but new version 3.09 creates those very issues.

I re-installed 3.06 and got back to my former happy state.

how is the bass control with the multi-channel analog inputs? would it be worth it to get an Outlaw ICBM to for DVD-A and SACD players?

Originally posted by dustinyo
how is the bass control with the multi-channel analog inputs? would it be worth it to get an Outlaw ICBM to for DVD-A and SACD players?

Unfortunately there is no bass management on the analog ins. There is a firewire port for future expansion.

So if you want bass managament beyond what a player will offer you'll prob want the icbm.

dustinyo,

I would highly recommend adding an Outlaw ICBM(unless your player offers adequate bass management for both DVD-A/SACD), as the multichannel inputs on the TGIII are an unprocessed(no bass management or DSP) pass through. The ICBM-1 is a wonderful product, that is very neutral(doesn't color the sound), and offers very flexable bass management.

SV

bump

Originally posted by Riverplace
After the upgrade, my 11-year old daughter walked in the room and immediately commented "it sounds different. I don't like it!". Also, it created pops when the UR boots up to a certain point, and lounder pops when being turned off. It also pops when another piece of equipment is turned on.

For the version 3.09, Sunfire states : "Eliminated audible clicks and pops from various sources". In my case it is the other way around. I didn't have those problems with 3.06 but new version 3.09 creates those very issues.

I re-installed 3.06 and got back to my former happy state.

Ok that's just strange,
I don't see how popping noise could be possibly be software related. It sounds more like the Grand III is highly power sensitive, perhaps a power line conditioner and a high end power cord might be the best solution.

I didn't have any pops or clicks with v3.06 and still don't have them with v3.09.

I wouldn't say that my system sounded different after the upgrade. The only difference I had was having to turn down the sub level.

Dan

Since the last time I reported the problem, I went back and forth several times between 3.06 and 3.09 and the result was exactly the same. With 3.09, when I turn on the unit I can tell exactly when any particular speaker will pop during the boot-up sequence. And it is very consistent. When I went back to 3.06 all the pops are gone. So it must be the software.

I don't pretend to understand it and don't even try to spend time to find out. One difference though, I am talking about UR, you are probably talking about TG III.

Yes, all my comments relate to the TGIII.

Dan

Hi guy's, I just wanted to let you all know that come next week I'm going to once again be an owner of a Sunfire TGIII(and a proud one at that). As good as the Integra Research RDC-7 was(and it is one fine controller), it just didn't sound as good with my amp(Sunfire) and speakers(Martin Logan) as the TGIII did. At the begining I was impressed with the sound the RDC-7 produced, but after living with it for a month I noticed that with many movies the sound was overly bright and harsh. After watching some of the movies, they left my ears ringing(not a good thing). I personally feel that the RDC-7 doesn't compliment electrostats the way the TGIII does. I remember the sound from the TGIII had a warm tube like sound that was dynamic and detailed at the same time, and it made my ears happy(and I sure miss that).

I made some calls to various Integra Research dealers who also carry Martin Logan and Sunfire. I asked them which controller(Integra Research or Sunfire) they felt sounded best with Martin Logans, and all of them said Sunfire. They said the RDC-7 sounded its best with conventional type speakers, using the matching RDA-7 amp or other high quality type A/AB amplifier(s).

So this time around where I thought the grass was greener on the other side, it was actually much better where I was before. So now that I'm going back to a TGIII, this time I'm staying for good!(I think I've learned my lesson, if the sound ain't broke don't mess with it). It feels good to be back! I should have my much missed TGIII by the end of next week:) .

SV

Wow!! I recently added a turntable to my TGIII/CGII, with B&W 9NT's, and it's so great (I have the 9nts bi wired with current/voltage outs on the cgII). Welcome back. Time to stop tweaking and listen to some tunes!

Enjoy.

iamnotmad,

Thanks for the welcome, It's great to be back on board. Congrats on you new turntable purchase, what kind of turntable are you using? I myself am looking into adding a turntable but I don't know which one to get. It's great that the TGIII offers a phono stage. I'll bet it does sound great on your B&W's.

Happy listening.

SV

Hey SV, I got an Music Hall MMF5. It's a good quality lower end audiophile turntable. Great design features, and sounds wonderful. I was looking for something kind of low maintenace without getting nutty price or too funky a design, and definately without getting a Best Buy special.

Let us know when you get the TGIII in and fired up!

Music Hall makes some makes some good stuff, I gotta check them out. I will definitely let you all know when my TGIII comes in and I have one back in my setup.

SV

I wanted to share some reviews of the TGIII from Home Entertainment & Design Magazine, Home Theater & Sound online, and Custom Retailer Magazine. Here's the links:
http://www.hedmag.com/article_detail.php?artid=53

http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/sunfire_theater_grandiii.htm

http://www.customretailermag.com/cgi-bin/ique/277720018411264.bsp

Great to have you back SV.

Dan

Thanks Dan.

Flash update v3.11 is available.

Dan

i have a basic question- i couldn't find the answer in the online manual. can dolby prologic-II be applied to digital ins or only analog inputs.

Dan,

Thanks for sharing the info about the new flash update, I sure hope my TGIII comes with v3.11 pre-installed.

SV

entlee
Dolby PL-II can be used on both digital and analog sources.

For digital they must be no more than 48MHz sampling rate and not a mono signal. I have a up-sampler in my DVD player that up samples CD's to 88.2 MHz and can only use plain STEREO in that mode. Mono digital signals only support MONO mode, regardless of the manual saying Prologic-Matrix can be used.

I haven't had any problems with analog sources.

SV - You're welcome. Don't count on your unit coming with 3.11. However, they are very easy to install - all you need is a straight through DB9 cable and a portable computer.

Dan

How much is this unit?

brh986,

The TGIII retails for $3,500, but you can probably get one for as low as $2,500 if you shop around.

SV

I just got my brand new TGIII yesterday, I have it all connected and all I can say is "WOW" what a sound. I sure missed my TGIII, but now it's back where it belongs. The really cool thing is that it came with v3.11 pre-installed. And the really great news is that there is absolutely 0 clicks and pops, just pure sound. I'm happy and my ears are happy.

SV

Nice. Congrats!

iamnotmad,

Thanks, it sure feels good to be a TGIII owner again.

SV

SV: What did you do with your integra piece? Interested in selling it.?
I'm trying to upgrade from my HK signature series 2.0 and would like a TGIII but its a little above my budget.
What do you think of a barely used TGII as another option?
thanks
John

suprflly,

I returned my Integra Research RDC-7 back to my dealer, and I had him order me an TGIII. The RDC-7 is one very nice controller, but it didn't work too well with my Martin Logans (too bright). The RDC-7 retails for $4,500 but I bought it for $2,750. I got my TGIII for $2,500. The TGII is a very good sounding unit, I actually used one in my setup for about 2 months. But comparing the TGII with the TGIII there's not contest, the TGIII wins hands down. The TGII did a wonderful job with music, but I thought it lacked a little when it came to movies(it wasn't as warm sounding as the TGIII). If you can, do yourself a favor and hold out for a TGIII. About how much are you looking to spend?

SV

SV:

I was looking at spending around $1500 and can get a practically new TGII for that but I might just hang tight for a few months and try to pick up a TGIII for around $2k if possible.
Any other thoughts?
thanks again,
John

m

I used to have a TGII connected to a Sunfire Cinema Grand II (5-channel) amp. Then upgraded to the TGIII. I agree that it's worth waiting a few months and saving a few more pennies.

Recently I upgraded the amp to the Sunfire Cinema Seven. YOWZA it sounds good.

Thanks for starting this thread. I have owned the unit for around 6 mos.
I will share some tweaks that has taken this unit to the next level.

1) Power Conditioning- I live in a NYC apt. with nasty old wiring. The Monster HTPS 7000 will make you hear this unit anew. It removes noise you didn't know was there and helps throw a monstrous soundstage. When plugged into the analog outlet the unit is fed balanced power that receives level 5 filtering. The added benefit is all of your other components sound better too. If budget is an issue check A-Gon for the lower priced models at excellent prices.

2)The power cord- Do NOT use the stock power cord and expect peak performance. Get the best you can afford. Virtual Dynamics has an excellent $75 cord called the power 2 which will have you very happy. Their NITE cord will have you in an absolute Ga - Ga state of disbelief. you can audition for 30 days. I use their audition cord on the TG3 and will be trading up to the NITE. I use the NITE on my transport, AWESOME!

3) Great Interconnects- The best interconnects I have heard are from Bogdan Audio. Available at Audiogon.com as well. I tested their $90 silver cable against a $900 Acoustic Zen Silver Reference 2. TG3 likes Bogdan better. My in depth review is at audio asylum. I use Bogdan reference interconnects with the TG3. Go for the XLR's if possible. I use digital cables from Bolder which are awesome.

4)Isolation Cones- Mapleshade sells isolation stuff. They are cost effective and work!

5) An outboard Dac- The internal DAC's are good. The modified Art Di/O dac from Bolder Cable is better.

Incidentally I listen with Holo engaged and prefer it for most material.
My findings by no means represent the best tweaks. I do hope you realize that this wonderful product can indeed sound much better with a little experimentation on the owners part.
Which is why we all share on this board.

Thanks
Doc

System-
HTPC>GW Labs Upsampler> Modded Art Di/O dac > TG3
Paradigm Active 40 (3), Active 20 (2), and Active DSP (2) speakers
Mapleshade Bedrock Stands
Bogdan Audio Cables
Virtual Dynamics power cords
Monster HTPS 7000 PLC
8th Nerve Room Treatment

Originally posted by witchdoctor
1) Power Conditioning- I live in a NYC apt. with nasty old wiring. The Monster HTPS 7000 will make you hear this unit anew...
Agreed - even though I don't live in a NYC apart with nasty wiring. :) I've got a very recently built home with dedicated circuits with isolated grounds running to my equipment rack, and I can STILL hear a difference with good power conditioning. I previously used a Panamax 5500 and now use a PS Audio Power Director 4.7.
2)The power cord- Do NOT use the stock power cord and expect peak performance.
Hmm... I have no complaints with the stock power cord, but then again I haven't tried any aftermarket ones. I will give this a go and see what I hear. I also use PS Audio Power Port receptacles in the wall where my conditioner connects. Overkill? Perhaps. But in the immortal words of the Hokey Pokey, "That's what it's all about."
3) Great Interconnects
Also agreed that interconnects = muy importante. I had color-coded gold-plated XLRs custom made for me by WickedCables (http://www.wickedcables.com/). It's a one-man shop from a guy that does sound design/editorial and mixing at a major Hollywood post-production facility. When he goes on hiatus, he conforms, re-masters, and encodes feature film and concert audio from 35mm mag to Dolby Digital and DTS via a 24 bit Protools System. He makes his own cables for the pro facilities using Belden, Canare, and Neutrik components, and he custom makes them for HT nuts who stuble across his site. I'm using the exact cables that are used to master the DVDs, so using different cables for playback aren't going to sound any better. I use Tributaries for all my component interconnects to the TGIII, too. I use shielded RG6 cables for the long runs to the output components (projector, preview monitor, subs).

4)Isolation Cones- Mapleshade sells isolation stuff. They are cost effective and work!
Not so sure I agree with this one. I've seen the isolation cones help with components that have moving parts (DVD, CD, turntable), but I can't see spending the money isolating possible vibration from solid state components. Granted, it's not big money, but I don't see the need for this one.

5) An outboard Dac- The internal DAC's are good. The modified Art Di/O dac from Bolder Cable is better.
Again, haven't heard the difference, but I have no particular problems with the Sunfire's onboard DAC. From what I've read about the modded DI/O DAC, it sounds pretty cool. But I have a number of digital audio source components connecting to my TGIII, so I don't want to have to insert an additional DAC in the path for each of them.

Incidentally I listen with Holo engaged and prefer it for most material.

Me, too. And for even MORE blasphemy, I have a 7.1 speaker setup, but in the TGIII setup screen I have back surround turned off. I send Left, Right, Center to the traditional speakers (behind a large microperf screen), then I use Bob's side-axis setting for speakers on the side, and L & R rear surround as normal. I wired it in both the traditional way and in my side-axis method and calibrated the speakers with an SPL so that volume was identical in "my chair," and on multi-channel DD and DTS soundtracks I actually like side-axis mode better. The action seems to happen around me vs. happening slightly in front of me (as it does in the traditional setup). I realize that this is not the "spec" - but it sounds better to me.

The TGIII is a fantastic unit, and outguns many of the processors that are much more expensive.

Thanks for the tip. The side axis speakers are on the side. Front and side or bac and side?
You will be very pleased with the power cord upgrade. Check out Virtual Dynamics.

My side axis speakers are located above me and to the sides of the listening area, just barely in front of my listening position. I use front, side-axis, and rears. Back surround is turned OFF in the proc, which sends any DD-EX or DTS-ES back surround info to the rear surrounds anyway, which sounds just fine. Not that many 7.1 sountracks now anyway. I can always change the config if more start coming out that are well mastered.

I just visited Virtual Dynamics Web site. I think I might audition one of their sig series just for fun.

stevejenkins and witchdoctor,

Welcome aboard, It's great to have some other TGIII owners join us. Witchdoctor thanks for the tweaking tips, I'll give some of them a go and see what happens.

Hey steve I checked out your home theater page, very cool. I really like the presentation, and I'm looking foward to checking out the photo gallery once it's up.

suprflly,

If you do decide to wait and get a TGIII you are gonna love it. Where you live is there a dealer that will let you do a home audition? This way you won't just take our word for it, you will then know how it sounds first hand.

Let us know what you decide.

SV

Steve,
Your system seems like a temple devoted to the Gods of movies and music! awesome website too. Must be nice to have programming skills.
Given the extensive equipment you own you should be very happy when you check out the power cord upgrades.
How good does the digital EQ work?
Do you use room treatment too?
Thanks

witchdoctor said: Your system seems like a temple devoted to the Gods of movies and music!

LOL! Thank you. I try to "pray" there at least weekly :)

We've spent the better part of the last two years working on that room. It's moved well beyond "hobby" into "obsession" for me :) If you want to see nicer photos of the theater, pick up a copy of the September Audio Video Interiors mag (should come out in August). I've got my fingers crossed that we made the cover!

The digital EQ is really neat. And for the price, it's a NO brainer. I use it just on the subs and it makes the low-end response curve nice and flat across the entire frequency range since the EQ is parametric. Some say that the digital EQs at that price range can make highs sound bad, but since it's only for low frequencies, I have no complaints. It also has a built in real-time analyzer for helping make adjustments to all other speakers, too. Here's a post I made a few months ago (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2042875&#post2042875) about it.

By design, there aren't a lot of flat surfaces in the room, and that helps a lot with acoustics. Any surfaces that ARE flat, however, are covered in fabric with batting behind it. Velvet curtains cover the glass windows. It's a pretty dead room. Of course it can't be completely anechoic because of the amount of architectural detail we wanted to put in, but I think it's a good balance between form and function.

For ease of running overhead cables, we used a false drop ceiling. It's a flat surface, but we offset that by covering the acoustic ceiling tiles with wallpaper that has raised foam to create repeating pattern. It looks like it's pure decoration, but it's mostly functional. I've attached a picture below.

The choice of speakers helped with acoustics, too. I wanted in-walls so that the technology never competed with the design, but still wanted top-notch sound, so I chose the James Loudspeakers. They have an attenuation circuit that helps tune the speaker to the liveness of the room. check out their site (http://www.jamesloudspeaker.com/) for more info. It works better than I thought it would.

Well, taking some advice from this board I measured my front speakers
to have them locked on and within an 1/8 of an inch distance from my listening position. I set my dipole speakers for surround duty on stands next to my sofa and I set my monopoles above and slightly forward of the listening position and set to side axis speakers. I had to calibrate the side axis speakers 1 db lower than the rest so t didn't sound to prominent and voila, all the frigging speakers disappear. Great trick, seemless music and movies. The holo does work better when you measure. When I disengage it it's like the soundfield collapses.
Thanks to everyone for the great ideas.

Hehehe... cool. Another side-axis convert :) Were you previously running side-axis? Or were you running 7.1 spec (L C R LS RS LBS RBS)?

You mentioned the "holo" - I assume you're talking about the Holographic Imaging. For those who may not be aware, that's different than using the side-axis speakers. The Holographic imaging circuitry is primarily designed for use with 2-channel music to increase the accuracy of the perception of the position of musicians and sound effects. According to Sunfire, the results of using holo with multi-channel audio can be "somewhat masked." However, I keep it engaged in multi-channel audio anyway, AND use the side-axis speakers. But I don't think the holo imaging circuitry has any effect on the side-axis output. From what I understand, that's completely different circuitry.

I had some people over last night to check out my theater, and one of them is a big import-racer freak. I played the opening credits and opening scene from "Fast and Furious" (dumb movie, great DTS soundtrack), and everyone was looking all around the room to see where the sound was coming from. It's like you're completely wrapped in it.

If there's anyone else on this thread who has 5.1 and hasn't tried the side-axis surround setup, I highly recommend borrowing a pair of good speakers from another HT buddy and trying it out. I'd be interested to hear from someone who DOESN'T like it, because I haven't met anyone yet who didn't after hearing it in my theater.

I previously listened in 7.1 with the rear effects channel for my monopoles. The speakers were really not used when listening to music.
This is much better. Not overwhelming, you don't even know the side axis speakers are on until you turn them off and the sound becomes a little thinner. You lose some of the vibrancy around strings and percussion instruments without the side axis channels in my room. It's sort of like going from TV to HDTV.

Some questions for you TG III users, as I'm strongly considering trying this prepro. I like to have different inputs connected to my Dish receiver (I realize this will require separate cables) with the surround mode on 1 set to DPL II cinema and the other set to DPL II music. Will the TG III allow me to do this (from the manual and remote, it seems to go just to 'DPL II' and I'm not sure how one chooses 'cinema' or 'music')? Next, are all the main outputs active, ie, can I use some xlr cables (for center and mains) and rca for surrounds?

Thanks, it's informative following this thread. I've read great things about the TG III's sound and look forward to giving it a serious audition. Although it doesn't seem emphasized much, I was impressed to read it has the Analog Device DACs that many very expensive CD players use.

Originally posted by Audioclyde
Will the TG III allow me to do this (from the manual and remote, it seems to go just to 'DPL II' and I'm not sure how one chooses 'cinema' or 'music')?I don't do this myself, but I think you have to choose either cinema or music from the main menu. While the TGIII does remember which sound setting you have set for each input, I don't think it can switch the mode of the setting (music vs. cinema) for each input on the fly. I'll try to verify this soon on my system, unless someone in here beats me to it.Next, are all the main outputs active, ie, can I use some xlr cables (for center and mains) and rca for surrounds?Indeed they are. All outputs are active at all times. Cool, eh? Of course, when you run your speaker calibration you will notice that the speakers running from your RCA connections will need to have approx 3dB additional trim to match the higher dB output of the XLR connectors driving your other channels. I used to run my side-axis speakers via RCA until I got my 7-channel amp and can now run with all XLR connectors.

Thanks for the info., Steve, let me clarify--can I choose DPL II Cinema as the default mode for a particular input, so that it will revert back to that mode when the input is selected? If so, then I can choose Cinema as default for 1 input, and Music as the default for the other.

Originally posted by stevejenkins
My side axis speakers are located above me and to the sides of the listening area, just barely in front of my listening position.

Hey Steve,

What do you think of using high-mounted dipoles (also located to the sides and slightly in front of the listening position) instead of monopoles for side-axis surrounds?

As a new TGIII owner, I have to say that I *love* the sound in movies--its not just the sound effects detail that jumps out, but also the scoring and instruments! Add a couple of usability tweaks (ability to select PLII cinema or music by input, availablity of "Source Direct" even if mains are otherwise set to SMALL, ability to turn DTS 5.1 into 7.1) and this thing would be just about perfect. Plus, its got lots of pretty lights...

BTW, what's your average volume reading for movies? I have a Cinema 7 and the TGIII is around -25-ish for DD and -35-ish for DTS. Just curious, since the volume goes all the way down to the -90's.

Audioclyde: Yes I understand, sorry if I didn't explain it well. I don't think you can do what you are asking. The PLII mode is set in MAIN MENU -> MODES -> PRO LOGIC II -> MODE and is system wide. You can't associate one PLII music mode with your CD player input, and then PLII cinema mode with your DVD player input. You can only associate PLII with an input, and then any PLII mode changes must be made from the main menu.

Vetinari: Since my speakers are all inwalls I've only ever used monopoles. Sut since the whole concept of the side-axis is to create a more spacious L/R sound field, I would imagine that it would work quite well!

And yeah - you nailed it. This proc's ability to deliver killer sound effects while complex scores are playing is fantastic. In fact, I went to a (GASP!) public movie theater last night to watch Pirates of the Caribbean (insanely entertaining movie, BTW). There are lots of scenes where there is cannon fire, swords clanking, and a very lively score underneath it all. I can't wait to play the DVD in my theater.

I usually watch movies at about 30-28 dB in my theater.

Audioclyde,

Definitely give the TGIII a spin, I don't think you'll be disappointed. If you do try one out let us know what you think of it. We would love to have another TGIII owner on this thread.

SV




Vetinari,

Congratulations on your new TGIII purchase and wecome aboard, it's great to have you with us.

SV

Steve & all,

Thanks for the info. I'll likely give it a spin!

Sure wish Sunfire would do a discrete code for the 2 variations of DPL II, though, as most other mfgrs have. Maybe a simple macro or 2 will work.

Originally posted by Audioclyde


Sure wish Sunfire would do a discrete code for the 2 variations of DPL II, though, as most other mfgrs have. Maybe a simple macro or 2 will work.

What's interesting is that according to the firmware update history, the TGIII should have this functionality. From Sunfire's description of v3.0:

"Added discrete IR and 232 codes to select Music, Cinema, etc. for Pro Logic II, Neo:6 and DTS LFE (new code list will be posted to our website)."

Really? I didn't see that. I will download the new code list and incorporate those into my Pronto CCF file on Remote Central for the TGIII.

Does anybody know what the discrete IR codes are for selecting these different modes? There doesn't seem to be any info on the web site.

Dan

I have emailed my contact at Sunfire requesting the new codes.

When they arrive, I will update my Pronto CCF file and upload to my Web site as well as Remote Central and will post an announcement to this thread.

Based on my request, my contact at Sunfire Engineering put together a zip file with the following, and authorized me to make it available. MAN I love super-responsive companies like these guys. It's a great boost to post-consumer confidence, and a sure fire way to make sure I continue to buy their products in the future!

1. Sunfire Theater Grand III and Ultimate Receiver Pronto codes Rev D.PDF - This documentation lists the Sunfire code number and the Pronto Hex code for all supported commands.

2. TG3-Ultimate Receiver Basic Pronto Final 09-18-02.ccf - This is a basic ccf that a user could download to get him up and running with basic functionality. It's simple and doesn't include any detailed commands.

3. Sunfire all IR commands 2-11-02.ccf - This file contains the first couple of hundred commands arranged by code only -- no labels other than the code number. It allows testing or cut-n-pasting of the hex code groups in ProntoEdit. It has every code we currently support and some extras beyond that which are not supported.

I am also working on adding the updated IR codes to my CCF file on Remote Central, and will make another post here when it's updated.

And yes - this DOES contain the discrete codes for changing PLII mode on the fly.

stevejenkins,

Thank you very much for sharing with us.

SV

I must say I've only read about four pages of this thread and didn't see my problem covered. I'm still with the TG1 and Cinema Grand 1 (trying to sell off some stuff to buy the TGIII). I've made the Silver Interconnects found on the Audio Asylum forum. I used XLR connectors and according to the recipe I didn't have to use a ground wire with the balanced interconnects. Everthing is great except that now the auto-on feature for the amp doesn't work. It doesn't seem to be getting the signal it needs from the preamp.
Is that signal carried over the ground wire on a normal interconnect that's been terminated with RCA's? With the on/off switch on the amp in the middle position (auto on/off) it turns off after a while even with music playing.

I also use the amp auto-on with the XLRs, but I didn't make my cables. Are you saying that your XLR cables only have 2 prongs in them instead of the standard 3? If so, then the easiest way to check this is to get the cheapest XLR cable from your local Radio Shack and test it to see if the amp still shuts off. If yes, then there's something wrong with the amp. If no, then it's your cables!

The XLR's I bought are descent Neutrik ones. They have three pins but the recipe, according to it's designer, does not call for a ground wire (the # 1 pin). I think it's the cables and the missing ground wire. The auto feature worked fine before I swapped in the XLR's.

Then that certainly sounds like the culprit.

Why would the cable recipe call for omitting the ground wire? To reduce ground loop noise? If you get high quality XLR cables (I got mine custom done at http://www.wickedcables.com/) then you shouldn't have to worry about that.

I don't know why they omit the ground. Before I built these XLR's I had never owned a pair, much less built a pair. I'd always used cheap RCA's from Radio Shack. I'm going to post this question over at the Audio Asylum. Lots of Electrical Engineers/Audiophiles over there. There are other versions of that same interconnect that call for sheilding with the ground wire connected at the source end only, just like the PC I made last night. I'll check it out.
BTW Thanks for your response.

Greetings everyone. I'm Alan Cooney, and I have the privilege of being Bob Carver's VP of engineering at Sunfire. I apologize for not taking the time to jump into this forum before now. All the interesting discussions of late have spurned me into action. :)

Specifically, I want to address dkiley's issue with his Cinema Grand:

Originally posted by dkiley
I'm still with the TG1 and Cinema Grand 1... [snip]
I used XLR connectors... [snip]
Everything is great except that now the auto-on feature for the amp doesn't work.
The auto-on circuitry of the original Cinema Grand only looked at signals from the left channel RCA input. This embarrassing design oversight was corrected in production years ago, yet a number of units were built that way. You can use the rear panel switch, leave it on at all times, or return it to Sunfire for an upgrade of the auto-on circuitry. It'll then turn on from signals on the left balanced as well as left RCA. Just call our main number (425.335.4748) and ask for Tech Support to get you a Return Authorization.

All current multichannel amps auto-detect signals on both balanced and RCA for ALL channels.

On behalf of our team, thanks to you all from everyone at Sunfire. :D

Regards,
Alan

Great to see you on here, Alan! Welcome!

Everyone else: Alan is a FANTASTIC guy. I've had the pleasure of meeting him in person and enjoying his gracious hospitality. I have been begging him to drop in on the AVS Forums for a while, and it looks like he's finally succumed. Yay! We are priviledged to have an exec with Alan's knowledge and resources available to us through this forum. Alan is very busy guy, so we shouldn't put unrealistic demands on his time in this forum - but even if he is able to drop in here from time to time - we are all very fortunate indeed!

Welcome once again, Alan!

Originally posted by Vetinari
What's interesting is that according to the firmware update history, the TGIII should have this functionality. From Sunfire's description of v3.0:

"Added discrete IR and 232 codes to select Music, Cinema, etc. for Pro Logic II, Neo:6 and DTS LFE (new code list will be posted to our website)."

Does this mean you will be able to use the original remote that came with the TGIII to switch between DPLII modes on the fly. Can someone tell me how I would set this up ? THANKS

I don't think the codes are programmed by default into the MX-500 remote that came with the TGIII, but since it's a learning remote (isn't it) you could find a buddy with a Pronto remote, install the Sunfire CCF file on his remote, then teach the PLII Cinema and Music codes to your remote.

Thanks for the quick reply Steve. Problem is I don't know anybody with a Pronto remote.

I think there is a fairly inexpensive Radio Shack (All in one?) remote that has the capability to enter discrete codes into it. You could use this one to teach the TGIII remote.

Does anybody know the model number?

Dan

I believe Dan is right about Radio Shack offering one. The only all in one Radio Shack remote that I know of that has the ability for discrete codes to be entered into it is the Kameleon 6 in 1 remote. It's a backlit touch sensitive remote. It retails for $59.99. I'm not sure what kind of codes can be downloaded into it though.

Here's a link:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F007%5F000%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D2133

Originally posted by Dan Krieg
I think there is a fairly inexpensive Radio Shack (All in one?) remote that has the capability to enter discrete codes into it. You could use this one to teach the TGIII remote.

Does anybody know the model number?

Dan

Radio Shack # 15-2116

But you also may need to enter them into that remote by using the JP1 interface, before you can teach them to the Sunfire/MX-500 remote.
It all depends on what you are trying to teach it, as it may not be native to the Radio Shack remote, but it can be entered into it with a PC and a JP1 cable, and some of the freeware JP1 programs that are available. For more info look in the remote forum here. Or for even more than that. Go to www.remotecentral.com and do a search for JP1 in the "One for All remote controls" forum there. Also check out the stuff irclone.com has for the MX-500 remote as well. As it will probably work with the Sunfire remote also, seeing as it's nothing more than a re-branded MX-500.

Tweak update. I had a consultaion with Bill Laurent from Eighth Nerve. His company offers room treatment to improve acoustics and various audio tweaks. His room pack will treat an entire room and costs $250 with a 30 day audition. It makes a night and day difference in my room.
We placed some brass cones called Nerve Endings beneath the TG3.
Very,very nice. More detail and clarity in my system. Cost was around $50
I think.
This is a guy who treats music studios and hears all types of megabuck gear.
He shared how my room sounded better than some $100K systems he has heard. He was literally a little stunned.
We both feel that the room treatment and the isolation cones made an improvement. It is posted at the audio circle site in the Eighth Nerve room under my witchdoctor handle.
Check it out!

Thanks for sharing the tweaks. I'm all for the best sound possible.

SV

Hi Alan,
First when you see Bob give him a great BIG thank you from all of us for the TG3.
I was wondering if you can make Circle Surround available as a software update?
It is available for WM 9 as a plug in for around $10. You can download it off the internet.
I would be more than happy to pay for the upgrade if necessary to help offset your licensing fee.
Thanks

I am looking for a little help from you fellow owners. I went on vacation for about a week and a half and unplugged my equipment mainly because we have been having some real bad storms lately and I am paranoid about lightning. I got home plugged my TGIII back in and the only speakers that work are the front left and front right. I can go to the calibration screen and it shows the same settings I had before I left. I tried the reset procedure and reset up everything but still no sound from the center, surrounds, or subs. I switched cables to the amp to eliminate it and the speakers and got sound from the other speakers when connected to one of the mains. I am out of ideas for what I can do but maybe I am overlooking something.

Thanks everyone
Mike

1) Always use a good surge protector, and you'll never have to worry about storms.

2) If you go to the speaker calibration setup menu and move from speaker to speaker, can you hear the speakers? I'm trying to determine whether or not the problem is related to configuration or in the proc's ability to send output to the amp(s).

When I go through the calibration menu I cannot hear the speakers. I do use a surge protector, but I have heard that sometimes lightning can get to your equipment anyway on something like a direct hit.

Looks like a call to their tech support may be in order. The number is on their Web site.

guys i know TGIII is a pre/pro and the Denon 5803 is a receiver but assuming the use of a decent amp, how does the TGIII stack up against the Denon 5803?

The Denon 5803 is a fine receiver, and probably the best in it's class, but when it comes to comparing a receiver (even a flagship one like the 5803) with a good pre-pro there is no contest, the pre-pro will win hands down. I have done some serious listening to the Denon and I prefered the TGIII.

The TGIII is still IMO one of the best sounding and easiest to use pre-pro's on the market.
SV

HIB: I agree that the TGIII will blow away any standalone receiver, but if you're dead set on a receiver, you should check out Sunfire's Ultimate Receiver. It shares the same firmware with the TGIII - it is, in essence, a TGIII with a built-in 7 channel x 200 watt amplifier. I have a TGIII in my HT, but I am considering using a UR upstairs in the Living Room to replace my Sony ES receiver.

I am also evaluating the Sunfire UR. I really like what it has to offer, although I am torn when it comes to comparing it against the B&K 507 (which has a little less power, a better remote and THX).

Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?

MBookspan:

THX's marketing department is brilliant, because they have convinced so many people that there is something essentially different abount THX and non-THX components.

Components don't really "have" THX like they have a Dolby Digital decoder or a DTS decoder. There's no "THX encoding" on a soundtrack. THX is a set of standards with the goal of making movie playback true to the original sountrack of the Hollywood release.

Components can, however, be "THX Certified," which essentially means the manufacturer paid THX labs big bucks for a licensing fee to use their logo and say they are certified. I think nearly any high-end component that has high-end features and capabilities could be sent to THX with the licencing fee and end up "THX Certified."

Of the features that must be included in any component that is certified, as far as I can tell, the TGIII has them all.

More info here:

http://www.thx.com/mod/products/homeTheatre.html

and here:

http://www.thx.com/mod/cert/productsCertDesc.html

As far as remotes go, I personally don't consider the type of remote that comes with a unit, because I use a Marantz RC5000 (Pronto Pro). What I do care about with a learning remote is the number of discrete codes a device will respond to. And the Sunfire has discretes for EVERYTHING. They have even added additional discrete codes in their firmware updates based on user requests.

I'd say audition both before you make a decision. You should also check out the Pronto/Marantz remotes :)

Originally posted by stevejenkins
Components don't really "have" THX like they have a Dolby Digital decoder or a DTS decoder.So are you saying that THX labelled components "don't really have" circuitry to handle re-equalization, timbre matching, decorrelation, etc? THX is a set of standards with the goal of making movie playback true to the original sountrack of the Hollywood release.

Components can, however, be "THX Certified," which essentially means the manufacturer paid THX labs big bucks for a licensing fee to use their logo and say they are certified. I think nearly any high-end component that has high-end features and capabilities could be sent to THX with the licencing fee and end up "THX Certified."If (as you say) THX is a set of standards, then how can manufacturers get THX certification simply by sending THX a licensing fee? That's some claim on your part. Do you have any examples of this? For instance: do you know of any surround processors that didn't have timbre matching circuitry or couldn't decorrelate a mono surround channel (features fairly unique to THX) but were still able to buy THX certification by paying "big bucks" to THX labs? I'd really appreciate any examples you have to back up your claim. BTW, since "big" is a relative term to each of us, roughly how many dollars did you mean when you said "big bucks"? Even an approximate figure would be helpful.

Thanx,
Sanjay

MC8 or TGIII? :)

Steve,

Thanks for the info. The THX issue is not critical. I know that manufacturers pay approx $400 for the licensing fee. My current receiver (Denon AVR4800) has THX Ultra. Do I notice a big difference when I enable it vs. when I don't? Not really. In fact, with my Sonus Fabers, I prefer running movies without THX.

My reasoning is more an issue of what comes included when I purchase an item. Since the Sunfire and B&K both are so similar (in terms of overall functionality), this makes it a tougher choice. I do plan on auditioning both.

In fact, I am picking up the Sunfire this week. I am really looking forward to it!

Now, I completely disagree with you in regard to the Remote. I currently have an RTI TheaterTouch T2 which is infinitely superior to the Pronto class of remotes. Of course, I am severly biased toward hard buttons! :)

The advantage to the B&K having an MX-700 vs. the Sunfire's MX-500 is programmability and flexibility. The MX-700 is programmable via the PC without any additional requirements. To make the MX-500 work with the PC, I have to go purchase 3rd party software/hardware for an additional $100.

Regardless, I do agree about the discrete codes. They are crucial in designing macros and automation.

My only other little nit with the Sunfire is the speaker posts. They do not directly support spade connections. The B&K does. My current speaker cables use spade connections and I'd rather not have to mod them to work with the Receiver.

Matthew

Originally posted by sdurani
So are you saying that THX labelled components "don't really have" circuitry to handle re-equalization, timbre matching, decorrelation, etc? No, that's not what I am saying. I'm saying that in order to get the certification your hardware must do everything that the THX spec says it has to, but that there are many high-end components out there have their own technology that does essentially what is required by the THX spec.

For example, THX says your processor must have (official text from THX in bold):

Faithful sound reproduction - Re-Equalization(TM) removes the edgy "brightness" of cinema sound, accurately adapting movie sound for home playback.

Most processors have some sort of equalization - even if it's just TREBLE and BASS gains. When THX says they remove "edgy brightness" they aren't performing magic - they are reducing some of the higher frequencies (like if you turned down your TREBLE gain...)

Timbre Matching(TM) ensures a tonal match between front and surround speakers for smooth sound movement.

I don't know exactly HOW timbre matching works, so I can't comment. I have always wondered, however, exactly how a processor knows how my speakers are voiced before it sends signal to them. Personally, I make sure the speakers I purchase are timbre matched by the manufacturer before they get to me.

Surround-sound spaciousness- Adaptive Decorrelation(TM) manages Mono Surround signals for a true stereo feel.

This specific application is indeed unique to THX, but there are a variety of unique surround processing modes from a variety of components that attempt to make surround channels feel more, well... "surroundy." The TGIII (I almost forgot this was a TGIII thread!) uses unique technology to create the side-axis speaker field which is a method of creating a more spacious front of the sound stage, but I find it also helps the enveloping nature of 5-channel surround tracks.

Wide dynamic range with massive, distortion-free bass - Bass Management(TM) sends bass to subwoofers, delivering cinema-quality bass and allowing for smaller, easier-to-place speakers. Bass Peak Level Manager(TM) protects subwoofers from overload, ensuring trouble-free delivery of bass-heavy soundtracks.

It sends bass to the subwoofers? That's genius! :) Sounds like a lot of fancy words (with TMs) for crossovers and limiters to me! BTW - the section in the TGIII menu that handles this is also called "Bass Management."

Optimum listening throughout the room - Loudspeaker Position Time Synchronization(TM) lets you set up your system for optimal "sweet-spot" listening anywhere in large or space-constrained rooms.

Heck - even my Sony receiver can do that!

Quick and easy set-up - Setup across all THX brands and components is guaranteed to be swift and trouble-free.

I have yet to find a processor that was easier to set up than the TGIII. The reviewers agree with me on this one, too. Every review I've read touts the plug-and-play installation.

Do I think THX is ripping people off? Of course not. I saw Star Wars! I know George Lucas hasn't gone to the Dark Side(TM). Do I think his marketing department is smart? You betcha! Do I think there are components out there that have all the technical abilities and features to achieve THX certification, but that haven't done so because they don't want to pay the licensing fees? I don't have any names, but I'd bet there are!

In any case, if THX is a decision making factor in a piece of equipment for you, then great. It's not for me, which is why I purchased the TGIII. FWIW - my old Marantz amps and my Marantz DVD player are "THX Ultra certified" and I can't tell any difference between them and other components of similar price that I've owned.

Sorry to hijack this thread - if you want to discuss more THX stuff, we should probably start a new one. Or search the archives. This dead horse has been sufficiently flogged in plenty of other threads.

Steve

Originally posted by MBookspan
I am also evaluating the Sunfire UR. I really like what it has to offer, although I am torn when it comes to comparing it against the B&K 507 (which has a little less power, a better remote and THX).

Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?

B & K's engineers do good work, IMO. I won't say otherwise or get into a bashing session with anyone over competing gear. What I will do is tout a couple of areas where Bob Carver's Tracking Downconverter(TM) invention gives Sunfire a couple of distinct advantages:
1. We're uniquely able to build a gutsy 200W x 7 receiver in a package no larger than our Theater Grand III pre/pro. So it takes up less space in your entertainment center or rack.
2. It runs cool. And cool running gear is reliable gear. *Everything* in your rack benefits from reduced temperatures.

We ran a very simple test some months ago, pitting one of our power amps against a very respectable amp from another manufacturer. Both were rated at 200w x 5. We ran them side-by-side at an average of around 30w/channel (all channels driven) with identical eight ohm loads and fed them from the same music CD source. Boxes with vent holes were placed over both units to simulate an enclosed rack space.

After a couple hours of running time in a 75 degree F room, our amp measured an unstressed 95 degrees F. The other amp was at 165 degrees F (try to hold your hand on that!). I ran those numbers through a typical reliability equation (see below for details) to come up with roughly a ten times reduction in reliability from the higher temperature. Note that this hurts both the amp itself and anything in your rack!

I ask that you check this out for yourself. Put your hand on top of any receiver in your local store -- playing or not. Then do the same with a Sunfire Ultimate Receiver. You may force the salesperson to let you see the speaker binding posts on the rear before you'll believe it really is a receiver... At CEDIA, we had a solo Ultimate Receiver playing on display. It was thundering the room with sound, and people kept asking where we had the power amp stashed. :cool:

Regards,
Alan

For those who are interested in the details of the reliability calculation:
I used the basic Arrhenius Model for Failure Rate as seen on the Test and Measurement World website What Causes Semiconductor Devices to Fail? (http://www.e-insite.net/tmworld/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA187523) with a conservative average Ev of 0.6V.

In a rview at Secrets of Home Theater the reviewer compared the TG3 favorably against his reference B&K pre/pro.
Sunfire Engineer,
Any comment about Circle Surround?

Alan,

Thanks for that very unbiased reply. I appreciate the honesty. I am going to pick up an Ulitmate Receiver from Speakerlab tomorrow to try out for a few days.

Honestly, I really like the UR (in terms of specs) when compared against the B&K. Further, I like that Sunfire is a local company (I live in Kirkland - you're just up the road).

I do have another question - I downloaded the PDF version of the manual. My question relates to the speaker binding posts. Do they support spade connections? It doesn't clearly say in the manual.

Thanks again for your reply,

Matthew

Alan Cooney,

First, I want to welcome you to this thread and say thanks for your input. It's really great to have Sunfire's VP of Engineering here with us. You all at Sunfire have been great, and you all offer some really wonderful products. I'm sure many of us TGIII owners will most likely have some questions for you. By being here sharing your insight and expertise, this goes to show just how much Sunfire's team really cares for their customers.

Thanks again Alan:)

SV

Hello Sunfire Engineer (Alan)

Thanks for joining the forum.

I'm a happy Sunfire owner since February.

I have one issue with the unit I've never been able to resolve and I thought I'd report it here again. I also reported it to your support number around March I think.

The problem is with mono digital sources and pro-logic matrix mode. I can't get this to work on my unit. No matter what the pro-logic II setting is, the unit will not move out of mono mode. According to the manual this should work.

One reason it's a bit of a problem for me is I have my Cinema Grand set up as auto power on and it will only turn on with a signal on the left input. Of course, I would also rather listen to 5 speakers than just 1.

Thanks if you get a chance to check it out.

Dan

Is there a significant improvement in using the balanced inputs between the TGIII and the Cinema 7 v. the unbalanced ones? I am contemplated a cable upgrade and was wondering if the upgrade should include the move to balanced cables? Interconnect length in any case would be less than 6 feet.

Thanks in advance,
Brian

It depends on the cable quality. As a general rule if cables are of similar quality the XLR is the better choice. I use Bogdan audio silver XLR cables from audiogon.com ( $179.00) and they sound better than the Acoustic Zen silver Ref 2 XLR cables did ( $900).
The funny thing is the Bogdan silver RCA cables ( $99) also sounded better than the AZ.
The Bogdan XLR are better than the RCA though.

Hi Alan,

In your earlier post you mentioned the idea of being able to turn off the orange lights while leaving the blue lights on the TG III on. May I say YES, YES, YES! I would love a setting where the blue status lights are on but the orange lights are off. I have heard coments on this and I think it'd be a real improvement.

Regards,
Greg

Hi folks, first off, I`d like to thank Witchdoctor for turning me on to this thread. Seems like a solid source of info and a helpful problem solving tool. I`m presently awaiting the arrival of my TG3 that I ‘stoled’ for $2300 at Audiogon along with a pair of Butler Audio 3150 tube hybrid amps with 6 channels of 150w/ch and an upgrade potential to 10 channels! This is my first venture into the world of high end components and I`m nervous as hell. But I do have a couple of questions and/or advise to ask. First off, the rubber feet, do they come off? I have 3 stainless steel cones w/pucks that I`ll be using being a firm believer that cones will drain off the minute vibrations created from the circuits that will only help with a clearer definition of the soundstage. The IEC terminal, can this be replaced without voiding the warranty and if so, are the connections the standard clips? I would very much like to install an Acme cryoed silver IEC panel terminal. I`ll be using a VenHaus flavor 2 power cord also. These 2 items were used with my mid-fi Yamaha 6.1 digital receiver with outstanding results in clarity. I`m also upgrading the 2 IEC terminals on the Butler amps with the warranty blessings of Butler Audio! Another tweek that I used with positive results is Stillpoints ERS which I applied to line the inside casing of my components. Again, I`m wondering if doing this would void my warranty although I have no doubts of it`s benefits. I have lined the inside casings of my Yamaha receiver, BPT power conditioner and my Motorola 4DTV C-band satellite receiver with the latter resulting in not only clearer highs on my digital music but a sharper more defined picture in both analog/digital. Well, that about does it for me, I`m real glad to have risen to the point of actually being able to be a part of a thread like this and it`s my hope to be somewhat of an asset and not TOO much of a burden. :D Regards, Robin aka››Satfrat‹‹

Robin Bombard,

Congratulations on your purchases. Welcome aboard, we're glad to have you with us on this thread. Please let us know how well the TGIII/Butler Audio combo works and sounds. I have been curious about Butler Tube amps for a while.

SV

Thanks SV, gotta question other than the ones in my first post. I just received my TG3 today and am waiting for the amps. On my Yamaha 6.1 receiver, I had a 6.1/ES which would process 6.1 like was done in Pearl Harbor. I got 6 channels with my 2 Butlers but I see that this processor doesn`t do 6.1/ES. How do I hook up my rear center channel speaker? Regards, Robin

Robin, I wasn't aware that Pearl Harbor had a 6.1 ES track. When you are talking about 6.1 ES, were you refering to DTS-ES 6.1? I do know that the TGIII has DTS-ES 6.1 Discrete and Matrix modes.

SV

How is it played back? In 7.1? And yes DTS 6.1/ES, discrete & matrix is what I`m refering to. My problem is 1 rear channel speaker or 2 rear speakers. Regards, Robin

I wonder if the confusion isnt related to the fact that the amp your getting is 6 instead of 7 channels. There is no actual discrete 7 channel material; the TG3 sends the same info to both rear speakers, I believe, as do all 7.1 systems (not counting side channels). It would seem to me that in the case of a single back channel (both amp and speaker) that you would simply connect either the left or right surround back to the amps input and that would be that. Dolby came up with the 2 identical back channels to increase "ambience", similar to their recommendation to use diploles for side surrounds. AFAIK the Sunfire decodes all the "usual suspects" of 6 channel formats, such as DTS ES and discrete, THX EX, etc. Many of these are actually a matrixed track, and not a discrete channel (I think DTS discrete may be the only one with an actual discrete back channel track; I can't remember know if Dolby ever did this.

enigma

So your saying that the 2 rear surround channels are the SAME signal, period! GREAT. My room is 11' x 17'. I have no need for 7 speakers. 3 in the front and 3 in the back is plenty for me and this size room. I was thinking of maybe using a y-connector to combine the rear signals. Thanks for the clarification! Regards, Robin

Enigma is correct and pretty much explained it all. The TGIII's on screen menu lets you select 1 or 2 center surround speakers for 6.1 playback. So no you do not need 7 speakers for either Dolby Digital EX or DTS-ES, 6 speakers will work just fine.

SV

For further clarification, you can force the TGIII to use all 6 (or 7) speakers in ordinary Dolby Digital 5.1 material by pressing the "Mode" button on the remote. Note, however, that this will not work with DTS 5.1 soundtracks, which can only be played 5.1.

Is anyone familiar with using Monster interconnects and the TG3/cinema 7 combo?
The Bogdan cables are spoken of highly on this thread, but my local retailer sells only the Monsters.
Thanks

I've never heard Bogdan cables, but I just ordered a set of balanced interconnects for my TGIII/Cinema 7 from BlueJeansCable (www.bluejeanscable.com). I will let you know how they turn out. In addition, I've also had a lot of success with Signal Cable (www.signalcable.com).

batlas,

Monster makes some good cables, but IMO Monster Cable is overpriced for what they offer. You can find quality cables that are just as good, if not better than Monster, for a lot less money. Vetinari is right about Bluejeans Cable and signal cable, they offer some really good cables at good prices. Another place that also offers quality cables at good prices is wiickedcables (http://wickedcables.com/).

SV

Vetinari and ohyeah32-


thanks for your advice.

Vetinari- please let me know how you like your cables

Well, I called Sunfire today over warranty issues and they don`t bend, open the unit and the warranty is voided, PERIOD! So I have no warranty on my unit as I`m changing the IEC terminal to a cryoed one and lining the inside casing with Stillpoints ERS. The tweak in me won`t have it any other way. :D Oh yah, I received a glass table with my Sunfire, is this a standard item? Regards, Robin

Wow, Robin! I'm all about tweaking stuff that's meant to be opened (computers, etc.) and I've even upgraded my Tivo (which is almost a computer, anyway), but I don't think I have the courage or skill to mess with the TGIII. More power to you if you do...

Glass table is standard for both the pre-pro and Sunfire amps....

Robin,

Yes, the glass plate comes standard with the TGIII. It supposed to help minimize vibrations.

Bet you're chomping at the bit to get those Butler Audio 3150 tube hybrid amps so you can get it all hooked up.

enjoy,

SV

Does a bear sh__ in the woods? :D Regards, Robin

I have a question for TG III users regarding Zone 2. If I understand the manual correctly, you can adjust the volume for zone 2 with the remote only. Is that correct?

Thanks, Dave

Dave,

The front panel volume control works independently for each zone. Just tried it.

Dan

Dan, thanks for checking and the quick reply. My TG III is on order and due next week, but meanwhile I'm reading ahead with the online manual. I could figure out how to turn on Zone 2 on the front panel, but I didn't see how the system would "know" which zone you wanted to adjust.

Dave

Hi, I thought I`d update the progress I`ve been making with my Sunfire TG3. The IEC terminal has been replaced with an Acme cryoed silver terminal and I`ve lined the inside casing with 2 sheets of Stillpoints ERS. I took the feet off in anticipation of using the stainless steel cones later this week when my Butler amps make the trip across this country. I`ve also downloaded the latest software using a friend`s computer, I`m ready! I`m still waiting for the silver interconnects from Ridge Street Audio and I`ve also ordered Herbie`s Damping Instruments for the vacuum tubes in my amps. I am some stoked! :D Regards, Robin

Hello everyone:

I've been travelling a bunch and this is my first chance in about two weeks to sit in front of a computer and read what you've all been up to. I'm thrilled that you're all getting so much joy from your Sunfire systems.

Here are a couple of questions that were posted while I was away:

Originally posted by MBookspan

I do have another question - I downloaded the PDF version of the manual. My question relates to the speaker binding posts. Do they support spade connections? It doesn't clearly say in the manual.


The Ultimate Receiver's binding posts are not the Euro type that shroud the contact area. They're the standard, US-style "five-way" binding posts that have been a standard forever. You may use spade lugs with them if your lugs are of a compatible size. Our threaded metal post is about 0.18" in diameter, and the outside diameter of the insulated hex head is about 0.6". I'd prefer that you used bananas, though, as spades are darn difficult to keep tight and our binding posts are pretty close together (the back panel is quite busy).

Originally posted by Dan Krieg
I have one issue with the unit I've never been able to resolve and I thought I'd report it here again. I also reported it to your support number around March I think.

The problem is with mono digital sources and pro-logic matrix mode. I can't get this to work on my unit. No matter what the pro-logic II setting is, the unit will not move out of mono mode. According to the manual this should work.


I can certainly understand this. I'll seriously consider adding the ability to force a digital mono source to act like a stereo source. That way you could then use PARTY, PLII (perhaps not, though, since PLII will simply steer the info back to the center), or whatever mode you wanted to light up more speakers. That may be a better solution than having a MONO mode that only then gives you sound from the left and right mains. Let me think about this and I'll post something here when I have a plan. In the mean time, I suggest that you pop into the OSD's SPEAKER menu and disable your Center speaker on those few occasions when you play digital mono source material and want to hear it from more speakers.

Regards,
Alan

Robin,
It seems you have been busy. How will we be able to know how your upgrades worked if you never heard the stock unit to compare?
I would enjoy incorporating your tweaks but how can we tell how much of a difference they made?

Well Witchdoctor, I won`t know just how detailed the results of any tweaks are but I will know from experience that they do make a difference. I did these things step by step to my mid level Yamaha 6.1 digital receiver and my Motorola 4DTV C-band satellite receiver and the improvements were fairly dramatic. Plus once I get all my gear plugged into the Sunfire, I`m not going to be messing with it constantly like I was with the Yammy. I`d like to state one more obvious fact here, I realize by modding this processor I`ve given up my 2 year warranty. Any problems that I have will be MY problems. But I`m a firm believer that there`s no such thing as overkill when it comes to ground noise. Sure there`s the point of diminishing returns, I left that spot at about $2200 worth of Bybee`s at the beginning of the year. :D But all these sutle improvements in lowering the ground noise are accumulative and they do help improve all aspects of sound reproduction. That`s my belief anywho,,, (-; Regards, Robin

Good to hear. I am looking forward to your experience. Let us know when you get your amp.

The Butler Audio amps should ship from the factory in Washington monday for the trip across the country to Vermont. I don`t expect them to arrive til the weekend. BTW, I had the amps wired so the leads off the transformer will be in place if/when I decide to upgrade with more channels. Butler normanlly tie back these unused wires at the tranny for neatness. These amps are totally modular and are a snap to take apart or to install an additional channel. Regards, Robin

Alan,

Great to have you back with us, and thanks for answering some of the questions that were asked.

I have a question for you. With most movies the overall sound is presented in quite a comfortable manner (warmer sound rather than bright), but on certain occasions with some movies there is a bit of bite with some high frequencies. I was wondering if some sort of cinema re-equalization or user adjustable equalizer could be implemented into the TGIII via a software upgrade, or would this have to be done via a hardware upgrade? It would be really nice to have an onboard equalizer or a re-eq function available on the TGIII to tame any brightness if needed.

your feedback will be most appreciated.

Thanks,

SV

Ohyeah,
Before you try EG please try:

1) A great digital IC. I use Bolder cables cryoed with silver bullet plugs. Awesome for around $100.
2) The BEST power cord you can afford. I use Virtual Dynamics Audition and will be experimenting with a Bogdan Silver PC.
3) A good PLC. I use the Monster HTPS 7000. The 2000 is very good if $ is an issue.
These tweaks will help all of your music and movies and tame the digital nasties.

witchdoctor,

Thanks for the tips.

SV

Greetings again all:

I was musing the other day and it hit me that I hadn't yet responded to the following:
Originally posted by witchdoctor
In a review at Secrets of Home Theater the reviewer compared the TG3 favorably against his reference B&K pre/pro.
Sunfire Engineer,
Any comment about Circle Surround?

Bob Carver spent quite a bit of time evaluating Circle Surround and comparing it to other formats. Analog Devices was pushing a chip at one point and sent us one of their reference designs. While he liked Circle Surround and was impressed with the work they'd done, Bob simply decided that he liked our current options for two-channel sources (Holographic Imaging which can be combined with Party mode, PLII, and Neo:6) better.

Originally posted by ohyeah32

[snip]
With most movies the overall sound is presented in quite a comfortable manner (warmer sound rather than bright), but on certain occasions with some movies there is a bit of bite with some high frequencies. I was wondering if some sort of cinema re-equalization or user adjustable equalizer could be implemented into the TGIII via a software upgrade, or would this have to be done via a hardware upgrade? It would be really nice to have an onboard equalizer or a re-eq function available on the TGIII to tame any brightness if needed.


We have that. It's called, "TREBLE." And it has a companion low-frequency re-eq called, "BASS." :) No kidding, that's what they're for. We labeled them, "TONE" controls for simple recognition (ease of use is one of our top design requirements). While we could've used more modern names, most average folks have no clue what "re-eq" means. :confused: Our "tone" controls utilize Bob Carver's own custom curves. They're not the 'usual' slopes or crossover points typically found on equipment with tone controls. They really are upper and lower frequency re-eq.

And you can adjust them from the front panel, on-screen menu, or via RS232 or infrared discrete commands. We didn't have enough buttons on the remote to make them available via direct keys on the Remote III it ships with. Sorry. If you know someone with a Pronto, you can download our discrete commands from www.sunfire.com and teach your Sunfire Remote III these or any of the numerous other discrete commands.

Thanks for all your questions!
Alan

Originally posted by SunfireEngineer
Greetings again all:

I was musing the other day and it hit me that I hadn't yet responded to the following:






We have that. It's called, "TREBLE." And it has a companion low-frequency re-eq called, "BASS." :) No kidding, that's what they're for. We labeled them, "TONE" controls for simple recognition (ease of use is one of our top design requirements). While we could've used more modern names, most average folks have no clue what "re-eq" means. :confused: Our "tone" controls utilize Bob Carver's own custom curves. They're not the 'usual' slopes or crossover points typically found on equipment with tone controls. They really are upper and lower frequency re-eq.



Thanks for all your questions!
Alan :D :D :D :D :D :D John Curl would have appreciated that answer! Regards, Robin

Sunfire Engineer--

I'll be buying a TG3 and Cinema 7 for my new ht in progress, sometimes in nov/dec. (will also have front pj -- not yet determined so don't yet know how many dvi and/or hdmi inputs---, and universal dvd player possibly with dvi out and firewire out)

Can you please answer a couple questions for me?--- (probably elementary for the tg3 experts on this very informative thread!)

1) Does the tg3 have digital input, bass management and speaker distance compensation for multi-channel audio?
2) Does it have firewire in connectivity ?
3) Does it have, or will it soon have, dvi and/or hdmi in/out?

Thanks much for the help! :)

batlas:

I'll take a shot:

1) Does the tg3 have digital input, bass management and speaker distance compensation for multi-channel audio?

Yep, yep, and yep. Check out http://www.sunfire.com/ for a nicely sized picture of the back of the unit so you can see all the inputs. Bass management is in the menus (speaker size, sub crossover frequency, etc.). The speaker distance can be set from the menus, too.

2) Does it have firewire in connectivity ?

It does has a fireware port, but I don't think it does anything yet. Firmware can fix that, I imagine, once it's decided what the port SHOULD do :)

3) Does it have, or will it soon have, dvi and/or hdmi in/out?

Nope. No such connectors on the back.

Actually I believe the answer to batlas' question #1 is no. The way I read this he is asking about digital input for multi-channel, which at the present time is not enabled (I understand future plans are to enable this via the firwire port on the back once all the issues related to standards, patents, etc get sorted out).

The only way to get multichannel in at the moment is thru the analogue inputs (8 channel), which bypass all digitization, thus tone controls and bass management. This is basically an analogue pass-thru with trim volume settings.

I am also very curious about future plans for HDMI (or at least DVI). I would guess that this would not come to be on the TG line until a new model is introduced (TG4 maybe?). This, along with the digital multichannel, would seem to me to be the next big step in pre/pro features. My guess would be that this wouldn't happen for another 1 - 2 yrs, just based on the product life-cycle of the TG3. I don't suppose you'd care to enlighten us regarding future products, would you Alan? :D

enigma

Enigma: Good point - it's possible that he was asking about those inputs, but we both read his post different ly.

batlas: I was saying "yes" to the "Digital Audio Inputs" on the back of the TG3, which include the following:

Toslink:
DVD
SAT
VID1
CD

Coax:
DVD
SAT
VID1
CD
DAT
VID2

I don't have any source components that feed multi-channel audio out more than one cable (such as toslink or coax) so I don't know much about how those discrete inputs work.

I hope we've given you enough information one way or the other :)

Steve,

Yeah, he could have been asking about compressed multichannel (dvd etc); but I got the impression it was dvd-a or sacd. I have both with my TG2, and have the Sony 222es sacd player plugged into the 6 channel (on the TG2 its 6, 8 on the TG3) input. To play dvd-a, I have to unplug the DB25 connector and plug in the denon dvd-1600 if I want hi-res multichannel in. On the TG2 this is a DB25 conn, on the TG3 its 8 separate rca's, which would seem to be better from a signal purity standpoint but would be a pain to plug/unplug when changing from dvd-a to sacd. A universal player would solve this; but I haven't settled on one yet (plus I like the fact that the SACD player is a changer). Hopefully with a next generation these issues will be solved (actually a dvd-a w/ firewire out would work with the tg3 once that input is enabled; the sacd could be plugged into the 8 chnl analogue input; allowing for both).

enigma

Enigma/Steve- thanks much for your reply on TG3 inputs.
I was in fact referring to DVD-A/SACD.
I hope both digital multichannel , DVI/HDMI and Firewire connections appear in the TG3 in the near future
(?any possibility of surprises at CEDIA?)

Enigma- I'm looking for advice on universal players for DVD-A/SACD, trying to avoid the hassle you have changing hook-ups with changing music formats from DVD-A to SACD .


The Denon DVD-2900 supposedly has "full digital bass management for all formats", while the new Marantz DV8400 says they have digital processing of SACD (??? not DVD-A) and plans to activate a DVI output.

The Pioneer DV-47Ai, hooked up with firewire to Pioneer's 49TXi receiver , allows digital handling of multichannel audio for both bass management and distance compensation.
If the TG3 gets upgraded with firewire and digital multichannel audio processing, do you think the DV-47Ai would be one to consider?


Do you have any thoughts on using any of these with the TG3?

Thanks much!

Batlas,

I have done some research on these universal players as they were first introduced. I discounted the Pioneer, as it seemed there were video issues (chroma bug, etc). Others say it looks great, but I didn't want to get stuck with something with a known shortcoming going in. Supposedly the Marantz 8300 (and I assume 8400, though don't know for sure) had the same video section, but a much improved audio. The 8400 sounds promising if they enable the dvi; however it will still have the chroma bug, afaik. The Denon was on my list to check out; after it came out I read a lot on these forums about it; ultimately I just decided that the new set of issues which came along with it (other types of de-interlacing artifacts) just made it not worth it; and I went with the sepearate SACD and Denon DVD-1600 DVD-A (which is soon to be discontinued). The other player I seriously considered was the Yamaha 2300. This basically has a similar video section to the highly praised Panny rp82 (also similar to the Denon 1600), but with SACD added on. There have been reports of a 'soft' picture quality that I wasn't too keen on, but never got to the point of auditioning it.

If either the Denon or the Yamaha had a digital out (firewire) I probably would have gotten one or the other. As it is I just decided to wait. If you definitely want a universal player now, those are the two I would check out (I realize that there are lots of others now, but when the Denon came out teh Pio, Marantz, Yammy, and Denon were the only universal players you could buy (unless you count Apex, which I don't).

If its only for music and you don't care about video I would also add the Marantz to the list; and if they get the DVI enabled it may be better on video as well.

It seems to me until the digital connections become standardized that its not really the time to buy. Maybe in one yr everything will have firewire connectivity for universal players, and HDMI (or at least DVI-HDCP) for video, etc. Oh, and as far as the Pio digital conn goes: It will work with a Pio receiver; similiar to the "Denon Link", Sony "iLink", Meridian proprietary interface, etc: but I have yet to hear from anyone that they are using the Pio digital out with any other brand (I have heard a lot of people say that it is not proprietary, etc, but I don't know this for sure). I would expect that Sunfire would wait until these standards become sorted out before enabling the firewire input.

The big advantage of having a universal player, though, is at least you have only one set of connections; so you could use any of these players with analogue in without switching; however the player must do all bass management (most of them do, some better than others). Also, there are supposedly new players coming from Denon in a few months, including a new higher-end player (I think it will be called the 5900 here); and maybe these will correct some of the problems with the 2900. There are some good threads on this in the dvd hardware board of AVS. This new Denon supposedly has the Denon Link connector (which looks to me like an ethernet port), but also has two 1394 (firewire) ports. Whether this stuff will ship enabled remains to be seen, but its worth keeping an eye on. I believe the new Denon also will have a DVI out; again, not sure if it will be enabled on shipment.

enigma

Enigma

Thanks for all the universal DVD info. I'll be looking at Cedia, hoping to find info on the new Denon. Switching cords won't work in our house, so a univeral player is a must.
Appreciate the advice.

Barry

I rearranged my equipment rack so I could try Mapleshade Ultimate Triple point cones under the TG3. Yes, there is a marked improvement which is most noticeable when playing your source through the TG3's D/A converters.
I use an outboard DAC for most music which goes through the analog CD input. There is an improvement of around 10%.
The big improvement comes with sources that are going through the digital inputs, my cable TV and DVD sources. When I listen to the cable digital music channels there is MUCH better resolution of space and details. The bass is tighter and there is more air around voices, strings, and cymbals.
It is much clser to my DAC now than before, an improvement of roughly 30%.
I also placed a small heavy hat ( brass weigh) on top which helped with the results.

Hey Witchdoctor, you beat me to the tweak! :D Well, cones DID help your DAC, no reason to think that the Sunfire wouldn`t also benefit. WARNING!!!! Alas Witchdoctor, you forced me to exhibit my stupidity. (or Sunfire`s?) As you know, I was planning on doing this same tweak having already removed the screwed-on feet. Even tho I was planning on using component cones with no threads, my curiosity got me to wondering if the unit would set balanced with 4 threaded cones. 3 of the cones screwed into place, no problems. But the 4`th hole,,, BIG PROBLEMS!!! This by the way is the hole closest to the ground connection. As I hurriedly screwed the cone in, I felt resistance,,, so I twisted a little harder. THEN IT DAWNED ON ME THAT THERE MIGHT BE A CIRCUITBOARD IN THE WAY. Now only thought of this because of the fact that I had taken the cover off and knew that all the circuitboards are located close to the back of the unit. Sure enough, Sunfire had placed a circuitboard directly over this foothole, close enough that a standard 7/16" long thread would hit it. Now I should have been more careful but I`d have thought that Sunfire would have taken into consideration the idea of someone wanting to replace their rubber feet w/threaded cones and given that hole appropriate clearence. Needless to say, I scaped up the bottom surface of the circuitboard. Because of the fact that my Butler amps haven`t shown up yet, I don`t know what if any actual damage may have occurred. Hopefully it was just a visual one. BUT if not, then any damage will come out of my pocket, not Sunfire`s as I take full responsibility for this. Maybe this subject would be something the SunfireEngineer would like to comment on. Maybe give me some idea on the circuitboard in question and what I might what to look for in the way of problems once I do fire up this $3500 processor? I take no pleasure in highlighting my stupidity here but I felt I needed to say something incase another Sunfire owner reads these threads and decides to try out this cone tweak using threaded cones, an easy enough scenario to see happening. Regards, Robin

As Homer Simpson once said, " Doh!"
I hope you are OK. Plug it in and see if it lights up.