Craash--any chance you can talk to your buddy in engineering about getting them to apply this patch to the Pioneer 3510HD boxes here in KC? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3297542#post3297542

If you read the thread you'll see that Pioneer has made a fix to the box to address issues when used with a Sammy DLP TV. TWC has rolled out the fix in various cities (LA, NYC) but not in KC.

I've asked. I'll post the response when I get it.

New registered user on the Forum, but have had a Sony HIRDE86 in Lawrence for about four months. Get excellent reception on 41-1., 9-1 and 5-1 with just a pair of amplified rabbit ears on an elevated floor behind the TV. Also will be glad when 62 and Fox 4 go HD, or at least with a stronger signal. Super Bowl was awesome in HD, even on just a 36" HD set.

Welcome Bulldog85 to the Kansas City HDTV forum. Wow! Using rabbit ears to get HDTV free Over the Air broadcasting. That's cool. :) Please spread the word about Kansas City HDTV broadcasting. We all our hoping WDAF DT-34 (Fox4) and KSMO DT-47 (WB62) join the future of television and broadcast full-power 720p and 1080i HDTV along with Dolby Digital 5.1 audio. Godspeed to Kansas City digital HDTV broadcasting.

You guys ever get together for any meet n greet type of events?

Thanks for your speedy reply and link!. I tried contacting Everest, but my email was returned. I will call them tomorrow to clarify my questions.


Originally posted by kchdtv
Darren,

Everest is using the SA 3250HD box. I am assuming that DVI works on the box but do not know for sure. Time Warner does support DVI on their Pioneer 3510HD box--however there is a known issue with the box with Sammy DLPs. Pioneer has a firmware upgrade to the box that is being applied in some markets--read here for more info--http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3297542#post3297542

Hey, has anyone heard when TWC-KC will start deploying the new Explorer 8000HD High Definition Digital Video Recorder (DVR)? For some reason, the TWC-Green Bay folks have announced the deploy already!

http://www.scientificatlanta.com/news/03Dec03-1.htm

It's discussed extensively in the previous pages of this thread. The GB folks have te SARA edition, while KC will have the passport edition. Trust me, it's worth the wait. We might see it in March.

I have heard Q2 of this year for the 8000HD

KC-technerd. The issue with not being able to use Pro-logic II on a DD 2.0 source is receiver specific. I have a Kenwood VR-7080 THX Select Certified receiver(sorry, just had to brag about that, got it for Xmas) and it has the ability to run PLII on DD 2.0, or any other source for that matter, including DD5.1EX and DTS-ES 6.1(why you would want to on those for any reason, I have no IDEA!) I can not, however run NEO6 or Circle Surround II on DD2.0 sources, only on analog for those guys.

KC-technerd. The issue with not being able to use Pro-logic II on a DD 2.0 source is receiver specific. I have a Kenwood VR-7080 THX Select Certified receiver(sorry, just had to brag about that, got it for Xmas) and it has the ability to run PLII on DD 2.0, or any other source for that matter, including DD5.1EX and DTS-ES 6.1(why you would want to on those for any reason, I have no IDEA!) I can not, however run NEO6 or Circle Surround II on DD2.0 sources, only on analog for those guys.

kcjeff, I appreciate your comments and thought I would toss in my two cents.

It would be my understanding that the issue is not receiver specific but is more a result of which sound field the affiliate is applied to the incoming audio channels from CBS. As was correctly stated in this thread earlier, if CBS is encoding the signal as 5.1 discrete channels, any DD5.1 capable receiver should be able to decode the source. Additonally, most receivers allow you to apply alternate sound field formatting, the resulting sound would be applicable for the effect you select. However, you cannot engage an two-channel decoder on a 5 channel source. Hence, even is the source from CBS is a PLII encoded stream, you could not apply your receiver's 5PL decoders becuse the KCTV5 folks passed it as 5 channels. In other words, if it sees 5.1 channels, it select DD5.1 as defualt but allows you to overide only with other 5.1 soundfields. You stated thatyou could not run NEO or D2.0 - my guess is that your receiver simply selects the highest common field for the incoming source. In most cases, regular programming should be in 2 channel stereo.

There are differences in how the PLII sound field handles the original audio sources: Dolby PLII applies a matrix decoder that derives five-channels of surround (Left, Center, Right, Left Surround, and Right Surround) from any two-channel stereo program material). In contrast, DD5.1 which has encoded with discrete channels of audio. On PLII encoded material (such as when CBS broadcasted the Superbowl) the sound is more like what you'd get on a movie soundtrack that is in Dolby Digital 5.1. With traditional two-channel stereo (most television shows) the PLII derived effect is a wider sound field.

You also mentioned NEO:6 in your reply: NEO:6 is DTS' version of PLII. Basically the same effect responses apply, although it is a widely dabated topic around who has better algorithms, Dolby Labs or DTS labs.

Circle Surround (much like all the other gazillion sound field effects on combo A/V processors) is a proprietary algorithm that is specific to your Kenwood. Yamaha, Denon, Sony and others have their "special" effects also. Generally these try to emulate various listener positions in the room or replicate listening environments. I liken them to distortion boxes and echo machines, but some folks do like them. Usually, these effects can be applied to any incoming audio source (with widely varying degrees of success) but you'll have to consult your owners manual for the details.

Lastly, you brought up DD6.1 and DTS 6.1: These are 6 channel sound fields in contrast to the 5 channles of 5.1 (or the 4 and 5 channels of PL and PLII). Dolby's trademark name for thier 6 channel product is Dolby ES (not dolby5.1ES). DTS calles their's DTS ES and DTS EX. For both Dolby ES and DTX Es the six channel is matrixed. For DTS EX the sixth channle is discretely mixed.

Overall, the addition of the six speaker, a rear center channel, allows for greater depth in the sound field and increased the effect of sound imaging to and from as well as across the listening position. Simply watch LOTR or Finding Nemo and you will quickly see the breadth of dimension this new field adds. Certainly there are some titles that simply use the 6th channel for simple sound effects, but the list of quality titles grows every day.

The main difference in the performance is how the labs handle the sound. Dolby matrixes the center rear from additional data stored in the Left rear and right rear channels. As i mentioned with ES this is a matrixed channel. DTS also uses this matrixed channel (but applies their own algorithm similar to what they do with DTS5.1) However, DTS provides studio sound engineers an additional tool: they created a Discrete 6.1 channel (EX). Rather than matrix it from the L and R rears, engineers can encode a separate (discrete) center rear for enhanced control, effect and processing. Note: no version of 6.1 can be created from only 5 channels. In other words, it cannot be derived. If you have a five channel source, your 6th speaker will be inactive.

In my opinion there is a difference. If you have the wherewithal, I recommend you hookup your 6th channel and begin to enjoy the ambiance.

P.S. For what it's worth, I have a Yamaha KR-V3300; This is my third Yammy and I could never give it up.

kcjeff,

I'm not sure how PLII could be applied to a 5.1 channel source... PLII derives center and surround channel info from 2 channels (L&R), and 5.1 already has a center and 2 surround channels, so where would the derived center and surround information be sent?

Is KSHB-DT 41 having problems? I'm getting ER in standard def tonight.

HDNet and HDNet Movies on TWC now available--kind of. Channels 1503 and 1504. I went to the diagnostics channel (611), entered the channel, hit ok, then pressed the yellow button a couple of times to fade the overlay. You have to do this each time.

Originally posted by KC-Technerd
Is KSHB-DT 41 having problems? I'm getting ER in standard def tonight.

"ER" was in SD last night, but Leno was in HD, so I imagine it was the network, unless KSHB just forgot to flip the switch at 9:00.

Brad

With regard to the KC audio during HDTV broadcasts...

I have done some research this morning and am expecting further information, but here is what I know thus far:

CBS is only encoding select programs in true DD5.1. The SEC Championships and the Superbowl were in 5.1, not PLII as was discussed. This weekend's Grammys will also be in 5.1. Yet here in KC we are all seeing a 5 channel audio bitstream on our receivers for most content. I checked with KCTV and learned that they engage local processing. However, they informed me that they send only a 2 channel bitstream on unconverted programming. They do engage a 5 channel bitstream for the 1080 content. The conflict for me is that if CBS is only sending 2 channels, even if KCTV is simply passing those channels (even in a 5 channel stream) I would expect activity only from my main left and right speakers. However, I have noticed activity in my front center and in my rear channels. Can anyone else confirm this? Subsequently, I cannot confirm if the rear channels are stereo or mono. All of this would indicate that KCTV may be engaging local encoding of some sort to create pseudo 5 channel surround. The engineers are looking into this and will call me back - I'll post when I hear from them.

Lastly - this obviously impacts our ability to decode and process the local source using our A/V receivers. Since it is impossible to do 2 channel decoding on a 5 channel source (you are correct KC-technerd) KCTV may actually be doing us a disfavor by encoding 2 channel sources into 5 channels. Unless, of course, CBS is actually sending true DD5.1 and KCTV has the capability to pass it along. On the other hand, they may be trying to improve on the 2 channel sound by processing it themselves, in which case, I would prefer for them to simply pass the 2 channels and let me select which sound field to use.

I think I'll call NBC and see what's going on there. I noticed a 5 channel bitstream from them during Las Vegas on Monday night.

I agree with everything you guys have said regarding the sound modes except for the fact that you cannot apply PLII to 5.1 encoded sources. PLII comes with two "DSP" modes. I put it in quotes because I am not sure it is really a DSP. Anyhow, the two modes are Movie and Music. Like I said, I would never suggest, nor could I fathom using these modes because I want the source to be emulated as close to what the director intended. This is why when I bought my receiver, I demanded to get THX select certified equipment. That way, I can turn on the THX features (Re-equilization, Timbre matching, Adaptive Decorrelation, THX EX) and have the soundtrack(which is designed for movie theatre speakers, not home theatres) be more accurately recreated with my home speakers to match the sound of a real theatre. Also, One other feature(that I never use) is that I can turn off the speakers and just use the receiver as a signal selector. When you do this, you have your audio outs going to your TV from the receiver and set the DD5.1 source to stereo mode(yes its possible) and it recodes it for two channel sound. That way if you are watching say, Discovery HD and you don't want to disturb everyone in the house at 2am, you can use the TV speakers, without having to run direct cables from the STB to the TV. But, like I said, I never use that, it's just fluff they added to my receiver. Anyway, my point is, it can be done. Sorry for the one long paragraph, but I would have lost my train of thought if I tried to break it up(never claimed to be a proficient writer).

Also, I agree, I do hear activity coming from my C, LS, and RS speakers from all programs on KCTV. I would assume they are doing some kind of DSP and sending the signal as "DD5.1" (note the quotes) because I see the 5.1 stream even on commercials. I know advertisers spend a lot of money, but I highly doubt that KC Bobcat is using 5.1 sound studios for their Dave Stewart commercial.

kchdtv,

Thanks for the info on HD-Net and HD-Net movies. I plan on checking this out 2-nite!!!

hold the diamond button and the select button on the box and wait until the display says diag and you can access 1503 and 1504, awsome picture.

Hi All!

First off, I have followed this thread for a long time and want to say you all really know your sh*t!! I have learned a ton about HD from you, THANKS!

OK, here's the reason for the post: I took advantage of the D*tv special and got the Sammy TS160 STB this last weekend and had the professional install to take advantage of getting the Triple LNB dish and have a FORTH line run to my HT room (we are D*TV Tivo Junkies). The picture on D*tv content on my Sony HS10 is AWESOME!!!

One HUGE problem, I installed a Radio Shack VU-90? antenna in my attic with a 26db amp and am unable to receive ANY signal. Yes, before you ask, I took the advise of many here and looked up the exact directions from www.antennaweb.com and painstakingly oriented the antenna. Long story short, after THREE nights of time in the attic (and a wife that was getting pretty tired of insulation all over the carpet) I thought my STB ATSC receiver was bad. But, as a last ditch effort, I went back to Radio Shack and bought the indoor HDTV/VHF/UHF/FM antenna and VIOLA!!! Even in my basement HT Room and our wonderful 10"+/- snow storm Thursday, I am getting a 100% signal on 3 local OTA stations!!???

I thought everyone might find it interesting to know that the suggestion of many on this thread is to be followed: "Try the smaller indoor antennas first!" You might save yourself hours of "Attic Time".

Thanks Again,

Alan

Which model of indoor antenna do you have and where is it in the house?
What stations are you receiving?

Psyclguy,

I don't know the model, but here's the link:R*dio Shack Indoor Antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D1880)

My antenna is sitting on top of my Right Front Speaker as I finally got a chance at about 2am Fri to try it out. This is in by finished basement on the SW corner, just opposite of where it should be?

I hope this works for you. I am receiving channels KCTV-DT, KCPT-DT & WDAF-DT (I think?). I have only had a few minutes LATE Thurs night to play with it, I believe more stations will come in once I move the antenna to different directions.

Alan

No need to have an amp on your attic or outdoor antenna if you are living in the Kansas City Metro area to receive local Kansas City channels. Using an amp on local Kansas City digital stations may cause the channels not to show up in your guide.

Did anyone try to watch the NHL All-Star game in HD yesterday? I was looking so forward to NHL on HD - it's the first HD game I was going to be able to watch this season since I have TWC, and I got nothing but a black screen and no sound on 1421. I spend the entire first period on the phone with KMBC and TWC, but they were both pointing finger at one another, and it didn't got fixed by the end of the game. Boy, was I pissed!!! I saw they had it on by the evening, but too little too late as far as I'm concerned. Anyone have any idea what might have happened?? KMBC stated their digital feed was up. At least I can watch 2 games a week on HDNet starting tomorrow.

Thanks for letting me vent!!

Squeak,
I noticed the same thing. I was pretty mad because I was looking forward to a good HD hockey game. Like you, I'm looking forward to the games on HDNet every week. Now, if INHD will show some more baseball games this summer I'd be in heaven.

Is anyone else giving up on TWC and ESPNHD? There's been nothing mentioned for months. I'd sure like to see my beloved Jayhawks in HD tonight!

--Jayhawk

Jayhawk,

I haven't totally given up on ESPN-HD on TWC yet. My hope is that when ESPN opens their new HD broadcast center and starts broadcasting their studio shows (SportsCenter, NFL Live, Baseball Tonight, etc.) in HD, TWC will be more likely to cough up the $$ to get it. I'm sure it'll be part of a pay tier of HD channels that is likely coming. I've been really frustrated about this, but there really is very little HD programming on ESPN-HD yet.

Also, as I understand it, it isn't a regional decision - it's a deal that has to be made with Time Warner nationwide, as the recent HDNet deal was (it'll be interesting to see when HDNet is available without going through the diag channel). Keeping my fingers crossed, but knowing it won't be likely anytime soon. My thought is if they don't have a deal underway by the fall, I'll really look hard at moving to DirecTV or Everest...

Should be a good game tonight. I can't wait to watch it, even in SD!!!

Squeak,
Regarding the ESPN broadcasts that aren't in HD, I've got a buddy with DirecTV, and he says that even the non-HD events look much better on ESPNHD since they're "digital."

I just got a new Samsung 50" DLP this summer, and I've gotta say that while the HD channels look awesome, the non-digital-tier channels (2-78) look like crap. ESPN in particular looks so bad, I can hardly stand to watch it. I'd almost rather watch it on my 32" non-HD Wega than on the Samsung.

Is this a common issue/complaint?

Originally posted by Jayhawk
Squeak,
Regarding the ESPN broadcasts that aren't in HD, I've got a buddy with DirecTV, and he says that even the non-HD events look much better on ESPNHD since they're "digital."

I just got a new Samsung 50" DLP this summer, and I've gotta say that while the HD channels look awesome, the non-digital-tier channels (2-78) look like crap. ESPN in particular looks so bad, I can hardly stand to watch it. I'd almost rather watch it on my 32" non-HD Wega than on the Samsung.

Is this a common issue/complaint?

What type of input are you useing? I have a 57" Hit HD, and I had the same problem on the lower (below 70ish) channels using S-video or Component. I actually softened the picture and made it seem better by dropping to RCA/Composite inputs. I've since made this suggestion to several people with larger tv's and they all been able to see a diffence.

I'm using component. Are you saying to plug in both the component and RCA connections, and then switch to the input for RCA when watching the lower range?

Kind of makes sense to me. I'll give it a shot tonight.

Originally posted by Jayhawk
I'm using component. Are you saying to plug in both the component and RCA connections, and then switch to the input for RCA when watching the lower range?

Kind of makes sense to me. I'll give it a shot tonight.

That is correct. I think you will be surprised by the results.

As for discussions regarding TWC HD I have these notes to add:

1. If you are wanting to watch NHL in HD, you can access the hidden HDnet channels now to watch them, see earlier posts by Craash.

2. The pay tier is coming. If you look at your current bill, it states that INHD, INHD2, HDnet, and HDnet Movies are going to be a for pay tier. Discovery, and the locals will be free, and HBO and SHO will be if you subscribe to their channels, you get the HD free.

Crash and Jayhawk -

The issue here is really one of how awesome your monitors actually are. The fact is this: all content coming from your digital set top box, whether cable or satellite, is a digital representation of what was originally an analog medium. Further, to reduce bandwidth and conserve spectrum, both cable and satellite providers utilize and industry standard MPEG compression algorithm. MPEG2 is a lossy algorithm in that some of the content is "lost" and math is used to "guess" what corresponding information (pixels) look like for the known information. The results of encoding and decoding is what we call artifacts.

These artifacts are recreated in their ugliest on all of our sets due to the ability of the image processors within to reproduce the information exactly as it is presented to the monitor (whether it is via s-video, component or DVI). The advantages of particular cables not withstanding, a bad picture will be a bad picture. The differences you note are probably in contrast to a smaller interlaced tube TV. In this case the images appear better (actually appear less soft, with sharper edges and better contrast) due to a trick of the mind. As only 240 of the lines (odd then even) are drawn at any one time, you mind "draws in" the missing lines. This happens so fast that you are not able to consciously see the interlacing of the lines. However, were you to interlace on a large monitor, such as well all have, you would actually see the interlacing appear as hazing or "warbly" images. This would give you some kind of headache after a short time of watching. Thus, makers of these monitors include a de-interlacing function that draws all 480 lines at once. This is also referred to as progressive scan. The concluding picture from a digital MPEG2 source drawn all at once is that you get to see all of the artifacts at once, with no "mind tricks". In actuality, the picture is probably a great one - or at least an accurate one! Its just when compared to 1080 lines of resolution and the increased color saturation and contrasts that are standard as part of the HDTV format, any standard def content looks poor.

Worse yet, OTA analog broadcast may even look sharper on your set because they are not compressed with MPEG as your digital content is.

As an option, try seeing if you can override the picture processing on your STB and allow the monitor's built in functions to modify the picture. generally speaking, your STB has much less capabilities than does that shiny new HD monitor. For digital content try engaging Scan Velocity Modulation and flesh tone control. SVM will sharpen the image but does tend to make the contrast a bit sharp. But then again, a brighter picture might also help with the picture. I would recommend turning off SVM for any progressive inputs, such as that from your DVD player and for any HD content, because with these sources SVM simply adds noise. My guess is that since you noted that your image looked better with S-Video cables, by send via the S-video you actually "forced" this to happen. Since you cannot send a progressive stream over S-video cables, you are only sending the raw data to the monitor. Then your monitor engages it's internal processing to enhance the picture. Unless you plan to buy an external processor such as an iScan or Faroudja unit (not to be confused with the 3:2 pull down that Farudja has licensed to some monitor manufacturers) this may be your best bet.

Have you checked out Digital Video Essentials yet? Without a doubt, the best $20 and 2 hours spent setting up your home theater. You will be amazed!

JS615,

Very simple stated, I believe the following:

With the compression ratio remaining constant, the biggest contributor to our poor picture is NOT the fact that the picture is interlaced but the fact that we are blowing this compressed stream up to the point where the small detail (artifacts) are very visible.

Using the composite inputs allows us a “better” picture by passing less data to the monitor, some of which is the artifacts and pixilation that appears in the more accurate s-video and component signals.

Compressing the video stream allows the cableco (or sat) to add additional channels while using the same amount of bandwidth. A simplified example of the compression would be an example of a single picture that is 12" x 12" and consists of 1024 dots. If each dot were a byte, the picture would be 1024 bytes. What the mpeg compression engine does is monitor the stream and watch for areas of low movement where it can remove some of the data information - the dots in our picture. If they removed 100 dots that would give us a badwidth savings of almost 10%. Do this on 10 channels and you now have the space for a additional channel. The down side to this is when you increase the picture the space between the dots become more easily seen and you get the pixilation and artifacts that we have all experienced – just like when you zoom into a low-res picture on the computer.

As a side note, my Hits does not by default de-interlace all content when using component cables. It does have that capability, but it’s user controllable. In most instances (save fast moving content), it has little effect on SD.

I'm confused by the following: As an option, try seeing if you can override the picture processing on your STB and allow the monitor's built in functions to modify the picture. What, specifically, do you mean by this? What processing (other than de-encoding and mpeg) is done by the twc boxes? If you mean aspect ratio, I would agree. I can think of nothing else.

I agree totally on the Digital Video Essentials .

Craash,

I have a Sony SAT-HD300 D*TV STB - it functions as a D*TV IRD as well as an OTA tuner. On my STB I am able to select various "modes" of picture enhancement and scaling. Perhaps that is not the case with the TWC boxes. Nonetheless, I went in to the service menu of my STB and set all of the enhancement to "none" or whatever the lowest setting was. Further, I disabled progressive output so that my Pioneer Elite Pro would have maximum impact with regards to image enhancement. I am not sure about the particulars of your set, but it is a good one so I suspect the image control is about the same as my Elite; consequently, on progressive inputs, there are some limits to the fine tuning of some of the settings. Regardless, I want the more "upscale" quality of my Elite's internals to handle all image control, including scaling. It is much more robust than that offered via the STB - which was probably just an afterthought anyhow.

BTW - you are right on about moving images with MPEG. Sporting events suffer terribly at the hands of the MPEG monster-math. The only augmentation I would have to what you said is in reference to accuracy of cables. They are all accurate - to the extent that all cables, save DVI, are analog, each has unique quality properties that are more improved as you move up the chaing. Luminance, brightness and contrast are far superior with component than composite. S-Video has better luminance than composite but less than component. However, they all are equal in accuracy of picture. DVI simply saves an extra A-D conversion, thus eliminating potential "noise" as a result of the codecs. But that could be another thread alltogether...

Ok, I'm with you now. It's the lack of image control on the cablco boxes that had me scratching my head. With out a doubt "afterthought" on this end.


How happy are you with the D*TV setup in this area?

Who would be your cable provider?

Sorry for the questions, just curious.

I am very, very pleased with my D*TV setup. I have been with them for a very long time and they have gone over the top to ensure my happiness, including providing my wife with a free D*TV Hughes TIVO (which they also installed the extra coax run for free!). That said, it was a drag having to install an antenna for OTA HD broadcasts - I like the idea of having my locals delivered as part of the package. I did notice that D*TV is now adding East and West coast feeds for the major networks. the only problem is getting waivers from the local affiliates.

Comcast is the provider where I live and my buddy seems pretty happy with it. I think his happiness is equally tied to the HSD bundle discount he gets.

I've considered the switch from TWC to a dbs, but it seems that in my area right now, TWC is the better "bang for the buck" as far as HDTV goes. Don't get me wrong, it's not inexpensive - my bill is right around $120 but that includes EVERY channel, and broadband as a backup to my T1.

Once the HD DVR battle lines become clearer, I will re-evaluate.

Craash,
I changed to the RCA outputs on the non-digitial tier, and the picture does look quite a bit better. Thanks for the tip! I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for ESPNHD.

FYI to all, the HDNet channels now appear on the channel guide, but it now says subscription service only when you attempt to tune in one of the channels. It'll be interesting to see what TW does, whether they just turn them on for now, or start to charge for all of the extra HD channels.

Glad to hear it worked well for you.

KCJeff--
<<
2. The pay tier is coming. If you look at your current bill, it states that INHD, INHD2, HDnet, and HDnet Movies are going to be a for pay tier. Discovery, and the locals will be free, and HBO and SHO will be if you subscribe to their channels, you get the HD free.
>>
Does it say how much? I will re-evaluate and decide whether to switch back to Everest depending upon the cost. I too am waiting on the HD DVR and it's availability may help sway my decision.

On the TWC discussion.

I have also noticed that the lower channels especially espn come in terrible. They do appear better going through S-Video than the component feed.

I called Time Warner, and if you want the HD Package which includes INHD 1 and 2 and HDNet and HDNet Movies it will cost you $ 6.95 a month. It might be worth it if they add ESPNHD. The only reason I watched the other channels was because they were HD, not because of the content.

I can't wait till more and more content is in HD. Hopefully you won't have to pay a premium to watch it. It is hard to watch SD once you start watching things in HD.

My cable bill is already getting to be outrageous.. It might be time to start looking at DTV or Dish...

Did anyone else have problems with TWC 1421 ABC tonight... The movie did not come in at all and what did come in after the movie was garbled.

cltambo,

Replace your s-video cable with a composite/rca and the analog lower channel (the channels you can get without a box) will look better yet.

The new pay tier is $6.95 per month. I don't know about HDNet, but from what I've seen of InHD, I wouldn't pay anything extra for it, much less $6.95. If ESPN-HD was included, I would pay $6.95 for the package, but they'll probably raise the price if they ever do add it.

That's pretty much the way I feel. Although there have been a couple of nice things to watch on INHD (Warren Miller ski movies!) for the most part it wouldn't be worth it. In looking at the HDNet schedule, about the only things I've seen that I'd pay to watch are the sports.

If ESPNHD were added, I'd pay the $6.95, otherwise I'm gonna have them drop the channels.

Ahhh - the prices we all pay to be the first on block with all the toys!

It's funny, even though we are all in agreement on the value of the programming we get (whether dbs or cable) for the dollar we spend. Basically we get boring, but beautiful pictures of old movies and grass growing. Still - we all pay for it because we all have invested so much time and money into our rigs that we gotta have something to show it off with.

What are we going to do when all this stuff is common vernacular for the everyday world? I'll be sooo bored...

Personally, I can't wait for teleportation!

Originally posted by js615
Ahhh - the prices we all pay to be the first on block with all the toys!

It's funny, even though we are all in agreement on the value of the programming we get (whether dbs or cable) for the dollar we spend. Basically we get boring, but beautiful pictures of old movies and grass growing. Still - we all pay for it because we all have invested so much time and money into our rigs that we gotta have something to show it off with.

What are we going to do when all this stuff is common vernacular for the everyday world? I'll be sooo bored...

Personally, I can't wait for teleportation!

Too funny, and dead accurate! Although Teleportation would be fun, I think we should invest in air-tube travel. You've seen those air tubs at the bank drive up windows? That's what I'm talking about! Strap my arse in a little clear tube, and shoot me to work through a big, air powered tube! :D

Does anyone know what COMCAST charges for their HD package and what channels are included in it? I have heard that Discovery HD is NOT in the package. InHD1&2 ARE ... what about HDnet/movies and ESPN-HD??

Just wondering if it would be helpful to have two different threads here, one for off-the-air, and one for cable subscribers. I don't have a great deal of interest in cable issues, and I suspect that cable subscribers don't have a great deal of interest in off-the-air issues.

Originally posted by KC-Technerd
Just wondering if it would be helpful to have two different threads here, one for off-the-air, and one for cable subscribers. I don't have a great deal of interest in cable issues, and I suspect that cable subscribers don't have a great deal of interest in off-the-air issues.

I don't mind two threads, but as a cable subscriber, I still have much interest in OTA. I use an OTA HD card in my PC to archive HD material, and to view HD material while using the pc.

I would also submit that it holds value to compare OTA to cable/dbs when problems occur to see where they might stem from (i.e. station issue, or TWC issue).

I wouldn't use ESPNHD as the channel to decide to pay the $6.95. My move from the northland (TW) to Blue Springs (Comcast) got me ESPNHD & cost me DiscoveryHD - not a fair trade. ESPNHD has so little actual HD content (although I did enjoy watching the game last night). DiscoveryHD is the better channel right now & I wasn't paying extra for it. Comcast needs to add some HD channels.

Called TWC last night to see what was up with HDNet and HDNet Movies, and they stated just as you said about the HD Tier. $6.95/mo for INHD, INHD2, HDNet, and HDNet Movies. The locals and Discovery are included for all, and HBO/Showtime are included if you subscribe to those SD packages.

The rep also stated that HDNet and HDNet Movies would be on the air on 2/15. I forgot to ask if/when INHD and HDNet channels would go dark unless subscribing. FWIW, I figure after spending several thousand on a TV, I can handle $7/month for the content, regardless of what it is. Especially for NHL in HD on HDNet!!! It's cheaper than DirecTV and Everest, which I think are both $12/month. My guess is TWC might go that high once (if) ESPN-HD is available.

HDNet and HDNet Movies went dark last night. It said "Subscription Service" Are they back on now?

Originally posted by js615
Ahhh - the prices we all pay to be the first on block with all the toys!

It's funny, even though we are all in agreement on the value of the programming we get (whether dbs or cable) for the dollar we spend. Basically we get boring, but beautiful pictures of old movies and grass growing. Still - we all pay for it because we all have invested so much time and money into our rigs that we gotta have something to show it off with.


No, shhh, quiet!

Move along folks, nothing to see here.

:D

Originally posted by Eyedox
Does anyone know what COMCAST charges for their HD package and what channels are included in it? I have heard that Discovery HD is NOT in the package. InHD1&2 ARE ... what about HDnet/movies and ESPN-HD??

Comcast charges $5/month for their HD service and you have to have their digital package. I have one premium channel and my monthly bill runs about $80. Without any premium channels I believe it would be about $66. As far as the channels, we get ESPN, INHD 1 & 2, Showtime (prem), HBO (prem), ABC, PBS, CBS, NBC, and I just noticed last night Cinemax (prem) is on 195. Also, the PBS is not one of the HD feeds, it rarely shows HD content. I really wish we had DiscoveryHD at the least, but it's not bad. Hope that helps!

I posted this reply in another forum on PBS HD 2004 plans. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=281239 Kansas City has a great PBS station (KCPT- DT18). Broadcasting HD PBS shows in beautiful 19.4 1080i and Dolby Digital 5.1 when available. Also this little station records and plays back 19.4 PBS HD 1080i and Dolby Digital 5.1 shows in different time slots when needed (Soundstage). Now we are going to get PBS 24/7. Here is my e-mail from KCPT....... Our plans are to comply with the Federal guidelines regarding simulcasting at least 75% of the time for the next year. We will accomplish this with a multicast of approx. 1.5 mbit simulcast and the balance (around 17 mbit) hd. During prime time we will drop the multicast and go solid with 19.39 HD. This service however has been delayed until March 04 by PBS. Don't expect the simulcast during the day to be pristine due to the severe compression as we are 'stealing' bits to make the hd look as good as possible. The 24 /7 refers to PBS, obviously we will have this service up only during our normal broadcast hours. Thank you KCPT and PBS.:)

If you've got Comcast, the 10 possible channels of HD ain't to shabby. Once they got the bugs worked out it's been solid. Has anyone else noticed that whenever INHD's have an NBA game on it's always showing "subscription only" on the screen? Is this due to blackouts or is it a problem with Comcast. I don't know how blackout's work but this is all I could come up with since all their college games come in fine...

Originally posted by Jerm
If you've got Comcast, the 10 possible channels of HD ain't to shabby. Once they got the bugs worked out it's been solid. Has anyone else noticed that whenever INHD's have an NBA game on it's always showing "subscription only" on the screen? Is this due to blackouts or is it a problem with Comcast. I don't know how blackout's work but this is all I could come up with since all their college games come in fine...
As I understand, Comcast has to have an agreement with the NBA to show the games. I have family with Time Warner and they show the games on INHD.

el scorcho, I guess that would explain it... Oh well, it's not like it's good basketball anyways...

TWC--expect your Inhd1 and Inhd2 channels to go dark in the next day or so unless you sign up. The letter they sent out said 'we hope you enjoyed your free preview....'

Originally posted by kchdtv
TWC--expect your Inhd1 and Inhd2 channels to go dark in the next day or so unless you sign up. The letter they sent out said 'we hope you enjoyed your free preview....'
Let's see, they just raised their rates (my bill went up about $11 per month), and they take away two HD channels. Bargain. Not that InHD is a huge loss, but still...

Did I miss something by not reading every post yet or has TWC talked about either activating firewire outputs on April 1st on capable receivers or giving those people that want them a different receiver that has such capability at that time per the FCC and Cable Co's agreement? I have Dish and somewhat lame HD locals reception and now that my Dish 5000 modulator has died I want to be able again to record in HD when I return in May. I was offered $300 off a Dish 921 but there is no commitment from them that they will activate Dishwire anytime soon or ever. It's either continue with Dish, switch to TWC or Everest. I have emailed Everest with no response so far.

Larry

Hey videohot,

Where did you find the $300 off on a Dish 921? I'm having trouble finding one at full price!

They have a deal where if you give them back your modulator and agree to activate the receiver for 12 months they will give you $300 off on it or a free 811 receiver.

Check the thread in HDTV recorders regarding the 5000 and modulator dying.

Larry

Originally posted by videohot
Did I miss something by not reading every post yet or has TWC talked about either activating firewire outputs on April 1st on capable receivers or giving those people that want them a different receiver that has such capability at that time per the FCC and Cable Co's agreement? I have Dish and somewhat lame HD locals reception and now that my Dish 5000 modulator has died I want to be able again to record in HD when I return in May. I was offered $300 off a Dish 921 but there is no commitment from them that they will activate Dishwire anytime soon or ever. It's either continue with Dish, switch to TWC or Everest. I have emailed Everest with no response so far.

Larry
I called TWC customer service to ask about firewire, and the person I talked to knew nothing about it. She even denied that there was any kind of agreement requiring them to provide firewire by 4/1. Craash, has your engineering contact mentioned anything about this?

We've discussed it in the thread before but the audio coming out during the CBS primetime lineup on KCTV-DT is just awful. They are sending out a signal that is interpreted as Dolby Digital 5.1 yet the audio is not encoded for even the most basic Dolby separation. All of the sound comes out of just the left and right main speakers. You can flip to the analog channel 5 and get Dolby Pro Logic via the MTS encoding and the majority of the dialog comes out of the center channel and the surround channels actually have content as they should. It's pretty poor when the old analog channel has better sound than the new HD Digital channel.

Why can't channel 5 just pass through the sound in the encoded format they receive it from their source instead of flipping on some master Dolby Digital 5.1 conversion that messes up the sound for the entire CBS HD lineup? We need to write, call or complain in some format to get this fixed.

It's great that they finally are offering HD programming but they aren't exactly operating it well. It's bad enough that they forget to turn on the HD signal at least 3 or 4 times a week and it takes a call to the station to get the HD programming activated. Now the sound is all messed up.

DTSfan,

I'm glad someone else understands the problem. KCTV obviously does not understand the format when they are sending 4 audio channels of complete silence.

Just wanted everyone Elise's opinion about the daytona 500 in HD. I thought it was pretty good considering that it was the first HD nascar race that I know about.

Josh

Yes NBC and KSHB 41 (DT-42) HDTV broadcasts seem to be getting so much better. Now if we could just hear some Dolby Digital 5.1 on KSHB digital broadcasts. Thank you KSHB and NBC-the Daytona 500 looked great in HD.:)

Originally posted by fcsmith
I called TWC customer service to ask about firewire, and the person I talked to knew nothing about it. She even denied that there was any kind of agreement requiring them to provide firewire by 4/1. Craash, has your engineering contact mentioned anything about this?

He is currently on vacation, I'll ask when he gets back.

Hey, all you cable guys out there - I have a question:

I was helping my neighbor set up his system yesterday. He's on TWC, and has a SA-3100HD box. We noticed that, when viewing a HD channel, you can't bring up the guide or program info. Is this normal, or does he have a bad box? Is there a workaround?

Another question: Can you set up the 3100 to output both component and S-video at the same time? We wanted to be able to switch to S-video for the SD channels without having to go into the box menu (so he'd have some aspect ratio control with his TV). Admittedly, we ran out of time to fool around with the cable box setup, so this might be a "DUHHH!" question, but I figured someone here would know the answer. Thanks for your help in advance.

Brad

I would have him take the box back and request the Pioneer, I had that SA for about an hour before I took it back. You do have to switch back and forth between component and s-video or it will up (poorly) everything (atleast for me).

The Pioneer has 2 improvements over the SA that I'm aware of.

1) The guide works on the HD channels as well as the SD ones.
2) You can configure it to stretch the SD channels through the component outs, so you don't have to change inputs. I just keep my TV on the Component In full time now.

There may be more "technological" differences between the two, but I'm not smart enough to know the difference. ;-0

4MUKC, Jayhawk, and fcsmith,

Thanks to all of you. I'll pass on the info to my neighbor. He's a little overwhelmed right now!

Brad

Time Warner Customers - Who's gonna pay for the channels???

I'm really pissed about the way they're taking away INHD and then forcing us to pay for it along with HDNet. I've decided that as much as I like some of the programming on both channels that I won't pay without ESPNHD. I'm just curious about who will/has and who won't.

Anyone want to throw in their $.02?

Jayhawk,

I've signed up and will pay. I was almost in the same boat as you, with not paying if no ESPN-HD, but INHD and HD-Net aren't bad. Plus, I GOTTA have my hockey!!! I figured after spending several thousand $$$ on the equipment, I can handle $7/mo to get as much programming as possible.

I won't buy the package until ESPN-HD is in there. Hopefully by that time there will be more actual HD programming on ESPN-HD.

I've had ESPN-HD since it was first offered. It's okay but there are still a lot of hours filled with Sportscenter and other content that don't benefit from the 720P HD capability. As you mentioned, ESPN needs to seriously increase its commitment to more HD content to make it a true value.

E-mail I sent today to Carol Rothwell of TWC.

Carol,



Can you tell me when the 1394 (Firewire) outputs will be active for the HD Boxes? I have called customer service many time and they don’t know what 1394 is. Also any update on HD-DVR?



Josh Clevenger


From our VP Engineering:

There are no plans to active the Firewire output for customer use. It is intended to be used for an external hard drive to add storage to the box. I expect to see that active sometime next year.

The HD box with DVR capability is now expected this April, at the earliest

I'm very disappointed that they will not be activated in the near future. I thought that they had an agreement to activate them.

Josh

Originally posted by kcroyaljosh

The HD box with DVR capability is now expected this April, at the earliest

I know the Firewire thing is bugging people but look at this! We should have the HD DVR in April! That's great. I am getting SICK and TIRED of having a DVR box AND an HD Box. Now we can finally have our cake and eat it too!

I have no desire to pay for the additional HD channels without ESPN-HD.

I have the TWC Pioneer HD box and it is frustrating that the scaler in the box is of such inferior quality that the composite and/or S-video outputs look better than the component for non-HD channels.

I don't know what the cost to TWC is for the boxes, but I guess I am not surprised that the scaler in my FPTV projector is better than the scaler in the TWC Pioneer HD box.

Mike

Originally posted by CycloneMike
I have no desire to pay for the additional HD channels without ESPN-HD.

I have the TWC Pioneer HD box and it is frustrating that the scaler in the box is of such inferior quality that the composite and/or S-video outputs look better than the component for non-HD channels.

I don't know what the cost to TWC is for the boxes, but I guess I am not surprised that the scaler in my FPTV projector is better than the scaler in the TWC Pioneer HD box.

Mike

I hate it too as I only run component video to my front projector as well, but it's not Pioneer's fault. All cable HD boxes do a horrible job of trying to upconvert 480i to HD resolutions. The old SA box we all used for HD in KC was horrid, and I bet the new HD DVR coming in April will still have the same problem.

The problem is that cable HD boxes are not designed to have good scalers. If it had a good scaler so non-hd stuff looked good on our FP's, they would charge us $10-20/month to rent the box. You already are not paying for the HD package until it has ESPN-HD, so I doubt you would pay more per month for an HD box that had a better scaler.

Speaking of scalers/processors, to resolve this and other issues, I was thinking of buying the cheapie Viewsonic Nextvision N6 processor. It retails for under $200 (I don't know where I might find it here in KC though) and can output a ton of resolutions (it also accepts HD resolutions fed into it via component or RGB). Anyone have any experience with this N6 processor? My projector is native XGA (1024 x 768), so I was thinking it might be good to have a processor, even a cheapie N6, scale DVD/HDTV/SDTV to XGA before coming to my Dell 3200MP (which is not known for it's scaling/deinterlacing capabilities).

Brad--no guide is a known issue with the SA3100HD box. He should take it in a get the Pioneer 3150HD box--much better box with aspect ratio control and DVI output. It will output both component and s-video at the same time.

kc

As of last night, InHD and InHD2 weren't blacked out for me. Is this the case for all TW customers? I thought someone said they were officially blacked out unless you've subscribed.

I have no plans to pay for INHD and HDNet. I watched HDNet during that "hidden" period and the only thing I found interesting was the hockey of which I am not a big fan, so I could care less if I see it. I never watch INHD unless I just want to show off my TV. If they got ESPN HD I would probably pay for the entire package, but I would probably wait until the new studios open, since there is not going to be anything I want to watch in HD until baseball.(unless of course my Tigers happen to play BBall on ESPN in HD at some point, moot point because TWC doesn't seem to be anywhere near striking a deal with ESPN.)

I'm glad someone else understands the problem. KCTV obviously does not understand the format when they are sending 4 audio channels of complete silence.

Hey all,

I talked with several folks at KCTV5 and received a call back from one of the engineers accountable for their HD setups. Here is part of an e-mail he sent me:

"Just a quick note to let you know I've switched our encoder to always be 2.0 stereo. The next 5.1 from CBS is likely not to be until the finals of NCAA basketball. In the meantime I had a lengthy discussion with the Affiliate Systems Engineering Manager at CBS (great guy) and we will come up with a better game plan down the road.

I read (and subscribed!) to the forum you suggested. Thank you for calling attention to the problem. Although I'm well versed in the professional 'sending' side of things I didn't know much about the consumer side of decoding Dolby and didn't realize that proper decoding of matrixed ProLogic would be prevented."

Thanks to KCTV5 for listening to our needs. Anyhow, let's keep an ear out and see how things sound. hopefully the KCTV5 (name left blank here in case he wants to remain anonymous) will chime in and provide some insight for us all.

Hey, great news about KCTV5.

Tonight KSHB is failing to transmit West Wing and Law and Order in HDTV. The digital feed is 4x3 standard definition. I tried calling their main number, but unless you have a breaking news story, they want you to call back during normal business hours. Anyone know how to contact them after hours?

I have selected the "breaking news story" option in the past. This will get you a human in the newsroom. Then ask to be transferred to engineering. If they are not too busy in the control room they will answer the phone.

In my experience, KSHB41 has been the worst in response time to my calls into the control room and e-mails. To my surprise, KCTV5 has been the best. Their engineers are glad that I called in to let them know that there is a problem, and I always get an e-mail response within a couple of days.

"$6.95/mo for INHD, INHD2, HDNet, and HDNet Movies. "

No way I'm paying. This really irks me because not that long ago, they were like "sign up for TWC, look at all the HD content we offer, including CBS, HBOHD, INHD1 and INHD2, etc." Now that I have paid for TWC, its a different tune, " uh, thanks for singing up. we're gonna take some of the content away that we lured you here with in the first place and charge you extra money for it now." Cheap.

Regards,
PolkThug

Originally posted by PolkThug
"$6.95/mo for INHD, INHD2, HDNet, and HDNet Movies. "

No way I'm paying. This really irks me because not that long ago, they were like "sign up for TWC, look at all the HD content we offer, including CBS, HBOHD, INHD1 and INHD2, etc." Now that I have paid for TWC, its a different tune, " uh, thanks for singing up. we're gonna take some of the content away that we lured you here with in the first place and charge you extra money for it now." Cheap.

Regards,
PolkThug

First of all, it has been known here throughout the AVS forums that INHD and INHD2 would not be free channels on cablesystems nationwide. Although it looks shady for TWC to call it a "free preview" after they turn it off, we AVS regulars know (or should have known) better.

Secondly, we all knew a pay HD tier was coming. It's cable for god sakes. They always pull this kind of stuff. The thing is, you can't look at it as 6.95/mo for INHD, INHD2, HDNet, and HDNet Movies.

It's more like, 6.95/mo for the pay HD tier, which consists of 4 HD channels now, but they will add more in the future. Don't think that they are just going to be content with having these 4 channels make up the pay HD tier. If there are many people like yourself, they will do what it takes to add you as a pay HD tier customer. Even if there aren't, you have to think Time Warner is going to add more HD channels, ***and they will go straight to the pay HD tier.*** Maybe it will eventually be ESPN-HD. Perhaps it will be other networks, but rest assured, they will go straight to the pay HD tier.

I have a feeling when a network you want goes to that tier, you'll suck it up and pay for it.

In my situation, since I was one of the many here who was able to get TWC to give me Roadrunner for $26.95/month for 12 months, I really don't mind the pay HD tier, but the point is you have to give it some perspective. Looking at it as 6.95/mo for 4 channels is a very narrow view of the situation.

6.95/mo for the pay HD tier is more appropriate. Hopefully more channels will be added sooner than later.

What is so hard about Comcast adding DiscoveryHD or HDnet/movies or StarzHD or BravoHD or CinemaxHD to their lineup?? Cheap or lazy? Hello?!? HD Content sitting out there!!

Eyedox, although I agree on the rest, they have added CinemaxHD, channel 195.

Originally posted by pappy97
If there are many people like yourself, they will do what it takes to add you as a pay HD tier customer.

This is what I am hoping for Pappy.

Any word on when TWC will add CinemaxHD?

Thats a good try at defending the HD tier, pappy, but as of right now, they want 7 bucks a month for 4 lame channels only because they are HD. When and if they add more channels, I *might* pay for it, but it will largely rely on whether or not those channels are any good and if TWC raises the prices slightly for each channel they add. I think are probably doing this in preparation for ESPN HD. That way, they can say, "look now ESPNHD is included for the same price!"

Just my two cents: You should all just tell them you're switching to Satellite!

I know for a fact that D*TV is pretty competitive when it comes to offering packages to current cable subs and I can also personally attest to the quality of service. The difference is that I need a $30 antenna to get my locals in HD...no big deal to me. I am also getting 8 premium HD channels (ok -7 if you discount ESPNHD) and D*TV is now offering east and west coast feeds of the network affiliates (all you need is a waiver from the local broadcasters). I have also been told that three new HD channels are planned for this quarter. While the advertised rate for their HD tier is $10.99, I can tell you I know of several ex-cable subs that switched and are not paying that rate. They also were able to deal in the hardware and installation.

I don't want to sound like an advertisement for D*TV here, but I can say I am very pleased with my deal. heck,in the very least if you threaten to leave Comcast or TW and have the details on what the satellite competition is offering, I'd be willing to bet you can negotiate the HD package to a more reasonable price.

Originally posted by js615
D*TV is now offering east and west coast feeds of the network affiliates (all you need is a waiver from the local broadcasters).

This is only for CBS and FOX at the present time. It's doubtful that they will be able to add any of the others any time soon. (DISH has had CBS for some time, now, but has never been able to add any of the others.) D*, of course, has FOX by default now.

Sorry, but there is NO CHANCE you'll get a waiver from KCTV to get CBS-HD over satellite. They wouldn't even do it BEFORE they were broadcasting HDTV, so they sure won't do it now.

I don't think you'll need a waiver from WDAF for Fox, however, since it's a Fox O&O station.

Brad

Brad - I never said they would get it... ;)

I have an antenna to get my local HD feeds and everything is working just swimmingly.

js615

In reference to your discussion with the KCTV engineer, I am curious how the feed of audio from the network is handled. The ideal situation would be that the digital feed from the network be fed directly, in digital without any conversion, to the digital broadcast transmitter.

With the previous situation of 2.0 audio being broadcast in a 5.1 format, it would seem that either the audio from the network is converted back to analog, then fed into a digital encoder for broadcast; or the network is the one responsible for the format. From what your engineer said it sounds like the digital to analog back to digital situation is the most likely.

In our home systems encoding and decoding conversions are to be avoided, and I believe for the best possible sound quality that once the audio is digitally encoded, it should remain in the digital format until decoded by the Dolby Digital decoders in our home audio systems.

So if KCTV wants to provide us with the best possible sound, they should see if their equipment is capable of directly passing the digitally encoded audio from the network feed to their digital broadcast system. An analog conversion should only be necessary for the analog broadcast system. This would also assure that whatever format is being broadcast by the network, whether it be 2.0 Stereo, 2.0 Dolby Surround, 5.1 Dolby Surround, or any other format that the Dolby Digital system is capable of, it would be passed on to be properly decoded by our home audio systems, as well as relieving KCTV of having to decide how to encode the audio.

I think its great that we have someone at KCTV monitoring this forum and giving consideration to what we have to say about Digital TV in Kansas City.

Great post Technerd, I agree. I would like the option of choosing what method of decoding the TRUE source I use. I don't want an overly processed signal to get processed again at my receiver. Just give me the source, my baby will do the rest.

I'm also hoping that we will eventually get the same in digital video. Once digitized, keep it in its source format, without conversion or processing, and let my set handle any necessary conversion.

I have found that all of the local channels capable of HDTV, KCPT excluded, are converting all video to 1080i, or 720p in the case of KMBC. So, often what I'm getting is 480i or 480p converted to 1080i, which then is converted by my set back to 768p.

I will echo kcjefff's sentiment in saying, "Just give me the source, and my baby will do the rest."

Originally posted by KC-Technerd
I'm also hoping that we will eventually get the same in digital video. Once digitized, keep it in its source format, without conversion or processing, and let my set handle any necessary conversion.

I have found that all of the local channels capable of HDTV, KCPT excluded, are converting all video to 1080i, or 720p in the case of KMBC. So, often what I'm getting is 480i or 480p converted to 1080i, which then is converted by my set back to 768p.

I will echo kcjefff's sentiment in saying, "Just give me the source, and my baby will do the rest."

I am almost certain this will never happen though. It's just too much hassle on local affiliates who already don't give a da*n about HDTV to switch to 480i when broadcasting 480i, 1080i when broadcasting 1080i, and so forth.

H-E-L-L, local affiliates won't even give me a true 4:3 image for 4:3 programming. They give you 4:3 image within a 16:9 window (I have a 4:3 projector and that's how I can totally see that) because they won't just give us a source.

Right now they have found an easy to way to deliver us HDTV programming. I'm content (Well, KCTV5's handling of sound is another matter). For now.

I am almost certain this will never happen though. It's just too much hassle on local affiliates who already don't give a da*n about HDTV to switch to 480i when broadcasting 480i, 1080i when broadcasting 1080i, and so forth.

H-E-L-L, local affiliates won't even give me a true 4:3 image for 4:3 programming. They give you 4:3 image within a 16:9 window (I have a 4:3 projector and that's how I can totally see that) because they won't just give us a source.


The 16:9 window is due to the 1080i up-conversion. If the local affiliates equipment allows a direct feed from the network, then it would be less hassle to provide a direct feed, because they wouldn't have to manually activate up-conversion when a 480i or p source was being broadcast from the network. However I am not sure that the network isn't doing the 1080i up-conversion itself.

I don't believe that this is due to the local affiliates or the network not "giving a da*n". I think its due to a misunderstanding on their part, or an attempt to appeal to a public that does not understand Digital Television. Everyone has been flooded with info that HDTV is the best, and 1080i is the best, etc., etc., so wouldn't it then make sense that everything would look better if it were broadcast in HDTV (1080i, or 720p) even if the source were Standard Definition (480p or 480i)?

We in this forum know more about the difference between Digital TV and High Definition TV than 90% of the public. Most of the public DON'T KNOW THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. Salesman at TV retailers are telling consumers that DTV and HDTV are the same thing. I was told at a local retailer that all stations in Kansas City are broadcasting High Definition. Standard Definition is not in their vocabulary.

The problems here with audio and video are similar to the problems that occurred when stereo sound on TV was introduced back in the 1980's. Local stations often used processors to simulate stereo sound on monaural programming. This meant extra equipment and extra expense for the local affiliates. The problem was that most of this equipment automatically detected mono sound, so on shows where there was nothing but dialog occurring at the moment, the simulator would kick in. When using a Dolby Surround Processor at home, the dialog would suddenly go from dead front center (from the TV screen) to completely surrounding you and sounding like you were inside an echo chamber.

Well, that is now a thing of the past. Mono is mono, with no processing. Evidently, TV broadcasters finally figured out that consumers had the power to do this processing if they wanted it.

Well we're in the same situation now. We have the video and audio equipment to handle exactly what is sent to us: 1.0, 1.1, 2.0 Stereo, 2.0 Dolby Surround, 4.0, 4.1, 5.0, or 5.1 Dolby Digital (I don't think I missed any there), and 480, 480, 720, or 1080 line video in 24p, 30p, 30i, 60p or 60i frame rates and the ability to process that however we want. I think once the majority of the public realizes this, these problems too will be a thing of the past, as the broadcasters will no longer feel a need to appeal to the uneducated. We may have to wait until the DTV uneducated are a minority, so it may be a few years before we actually get everything broadcast to us in its correct Digital Television source.

I have been reading the messages in this area and decided to register today - so this is my first post!

My comments concern OTA, satellite and cable content.

When I was first married, we lived in Lenexa and had good cable service at the place we lived. When we built our house (about 10 years ago) in Olathe, it became quite apparent that cable service here WAS not the same caliber as in Lenexa. If the wind blew or I sneezed, I lost the damn signal!

As a result, I was an early adopter of digital satellite service. At that time, no local channels were available, so I purchased a decent antenna for the attic to receive these local stations. The best part of this deal was that since my house was pre-wired with for cable service, I simply spliced into the cable runs and connected them via high quality signal splicers to my new antenna.

That was great for while, but then my satellite service began offering local stations. For convenience, I ended up using the satellite to receive my local content.

I just purchased a new 57" Sony rear projection TV with a HD tuner built into it. I was anxious to get HD signals on it. But here I was again, using my satellite that didn't have any local HD content on it.

I decided to try the previously mentioned attic antenna to acquire my signals. Now, I read many messages (here and otherwise) of massive headaches when using antennas the get OTA signals. One simple connection and a few clicks of the menu of the TV and I had ALL HD content available in the KC area - Woo-Hoo!!!

I realize that my attic antenna may not be feasible for everyone. I also understand that incorporating a digital satellite may not be an option for all either. But I just can't understand why so many people pay (what seems to be) outrageous cable bills in order to get their HD content.

If your house is prewired for cable, you can do as I did and make a few simple cuts and use the cable in conjunction with an antenna (under $40) to get these signals. If you move, you can reconnect the cable connection for the new residents.

There is not enough HD content via cable or satellite at this time to interest me in HD signals from either source. If I was going to opt for anything else in HD other than OTA content, I would probably consider VOOM - but I will wait a bit longer and see what happens.

Since most all of the non-HD content looks like poop now that I have a new TV, I am satisifed with receiving my non-HD content provided via satellite for under $50 a month and my FREE HD content via my attic antenna.

Why do so many people opt for cable when there are cheaper options available to them???

It has been expressed in a number of threads in the HD forums here that many of the STBs do not respond well to on-the-fly changes in the ATSC video stream. New ones don't seem to do any better than old ones.

As a result, most stations upconvert all locally-originated 480i/480p content to their HD format of choice and leave it there. As I understand it, the network typically upconverts non-hd content that is sent on the the HD feed. The station often chooses to locally upconvert the non-hd network feed during these situations, however, because it is easier for them to cut in, do local commericals, etc.

I too wish that everything would come to us unaltered, but it's not realistic. Stations have to be able to do things like add crawls, weather bugs, ebs notifications, etc., to satisfy its broader (non-early-adopter) viewer base.

Unfortunately, neither the ATSC specification nor most of the multi-channel audio formats provide native support for realtime video overlays or audio mixing, so the only solution is to decode the stream from the network, manipulate it, encode it, and send it on to us.

FOX has apparently prompted the development some technologies that allow for video overlays that don't require manipulating the entire stream, but what they're doing sounds atypical. Search for posts by the avs user foxeng ... he's provided a ton of information about this stuff.

bocktar,

Thanks for the info. That's an aspect I had not fully considered. I certainly would like to learn more about Digital TV from the broadcasting end.

I would think that what you have said is more limiting on video than audio however. Weather bugs, crawls, etc have to be mixed into network feeds. I can't think of any situations where local audio is mixed into a network feed. Every example I can think of would be a complete cut from the network feed.

Do you know of any instances where local audio is mixed with the network feed?

It's pretty rare for an audio overlay to occur in the middle of a program, but it does happen. A number of the stations will use audio cues when they pop up the school closing crawls and weather bugs. They also do it when they do promos for the news as the credits are running for the program you just finished watching. They usually drop the volume on the network feed, but they don't kill it. I think there also exist situations where a local affiliate will bleep audio content that does not meet local standards of decency. Some affiliates may also do time compression if their parent network allows it to get in an extra ad spot or something like that. Time compression would definitely require local modification (but not necessarily mixing) of the audio stream.

They're all examples of things I wish they wouldn't do ... but they do it.

They apparently want (or may need -- think about potential EBS requirements) to keep the ability to do this, because they're spending money on the equipment needed to decode a 5.1 signal, modify it, and encode it again -- rather than just passing it through. I can't imagine that a broadcast-quality realtime 5.1 encoder is cheap. It has to quickly take 5 mbps down to no more than 640 kbps.

The engineer for WIBW-DT (the CBS affiliate in Topeka) explained in the Topeka HDTV thread some of their challenges with getting this all set up.

The ATSC AC-3 audio spec is an interesting read if you like this kind of stuff:

ATSC Standard: Digital Audio Compression (AC-3), Revision A (http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_52a.pdf)

KC Technerd -

I'm also hoping that we will eventually get the same in digital video. Once digitized, keep it in its source format, without conversion or processing, and let my set handle any necessary conversion.

Besides local video and audio inserts, another problem with this is the networks send out a 45 MB/sec digital HDTV signal; the local TV station has to convert it to a 19 MB/sec signal to broadcast it over the air.

Besides local video and audio inserts, another problem with this is the networks send out a 45 MB/sec digital HDTV signal; the local TV station has to convert it to a 19 MB/sec signal to broadcast it over the air.

I would think this could be done in the digital domain, without a conversion to analog. I'm not opposed to processing thats necessary for the purpose of transmission. I'm opposed to analog processing on a digital signal, multiple DA or AD conversions, and format changes.

Originally posted by KC-Technerd
I would think this could be done in the digital domain, without a conversion to analog. I'm not opposed to processing thats necessary for the purpose of transmission. I'm opposed to analog processing on a digital signal, multiple DA or AD conversions, and format changes.

Unfortunately, bandwidth contraints throughout the entire broadcast and delivery chain dictate that both the video and discrete multi-channel audio utilize lossy compression. Each successive decode/modify/encode process is going to further degrade the original signal...even if it's kept totally digital.

Another thing to consider is that keeping everything digital does nothing to guarantee quality. If the local affiliate has little or no experience with digital audio mixing, for example, you could easily get very bad results.

Imagine a poorly isolated mic fed into a noise-sensitive AD converter and digitally mixed into each channel of a 5.1 stream...

All that said, I share your desire for totally unmodified content. It is interesting to explore the reasons that we don't get it.

Originally posted by diamond devil
I have been reading the messages in this area and decided to register today - so this is my first post!

...

Why do so many people opt for cable when there are cheaper options available to them???

Welcome!

My only guess is that it is more convenient (perceived as the least complicated option).

I go round and round about this with my family and coworkers all the time (they like to entertain my rants, I guess), and this is the only conclusion I can draw.

Diamond Devil,

I'm a cable subscriber, and I might be able to shed a little light on why people have cable.

1) A lot of people don't have integrated HDTV tuners in their TV. Cable company gives HDTV cable boxes for no add'l charge over the regular digital cable boxes, and doesn't charge extra for the local HD channels, or premiums if you subscribe to the SD counterparts, just the HD tier, which is add'l programming not available OTA. Also, at least for Time Warner, which granted doesn't have ESPN-HD, it's cheaper than satellite HD-tier. Discovery-HD is also thrown in for free. Cable also has INHD, which is not available on a dish. It's not the greatest thing, but it is additional HD service.

2) For me, cable is cheaper and more reliable than satellite. Since Everest is an option in my neighborhood, TWC came in and really lowered their rates to very reasonable rates.

3) WDAF-DT has no signal power - I wouldn't be able to get it OTA at my house, just through TWC

4) Soon, we're hearing an HD-DVR will be available at a marginal cost per month. That'll be a huge bonus for cable

5) Signal won't fade in bad weather. Only happens once in a blue moon on satellite, but it sure is frustrating when it does.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. I think we all realize on here there is no perfect solution, but I figured I'd try to give an opinion from this side of the fence. We all have preferences that sway us one way or another. Probably the biggest reason is #1 there for people without integrated tuners in their sets. Not having to buy add'l equipment is a big plus, especially since there's no HDTV cable box upcharge over regular digital cable. But the longer TWC goes without ESPN-HD, the more likely I will be to investigate other options...

- Squeak

Good points.

I think the thing that concerns me the most regarding EITHER satellite or cable subscription services is the FCC's apparent stance to not regulate these two bodies as they will the major networks in converting their signals to HD.

It stands to reason that one or the other could make large in-roads to the other's client base by kicking up their HD program content. But then again, I wouldn't be surprised if they do a "back room" deal where both agree to keep pace at a minimum in order to maximize the profits reaped by their current hardware and feed capabilities.

I'm seriously leaning towards VOOM - especially if they start to offer some additional incentives/debates on their hardware and subscription packages. I don't mind installing another dish - I WANT CONTENT!

In the end, I think it's going to take somebody like VOOM to gain some noticeable success in order to make the "big boys" smell the coffee.

On another thought...I was so pissed off at DirecTV and the entire Royals' network debacle last year that I damn near switched services...until I realized just how badly I needed NFL Sunday Ticket (what can I say, I'm a football junkie!).

Diamond Devil:

I have only one reason for cable in lieu of satellite. TWC Metro Sports. They carry local games that are not available anywhere else and are the only station that covers high school and local college sports in adequate detail for my liking.

For me, a sports nut, it is as simple as that.

Mike

Satellite needs to get smart and start leasing HD and HD-PVR boxes like cable for those of us that dont want to drop $1000 on a buggy box (921).

Actually, Dish Network is doing this now...

For TWC subscribers: Everest charges more for HD channels, it's $11.95. They have ESPNHD, but it turned out most of the broadcast is not HD. So don't get too excited about ESPNHD.

Metro Sports is also a tiebreaker for me (especially during the Royals p*ssing contest last summer), but D* has NFL Sunday Ticket (plus, all HD/Fox widescreen games available if you subscribe, regardless of whether you get them in your area) and all the Fox Sports feeds. Fortunately, my dad has DirecTV so I can go watch my NFL team play weekly. Again, it's give and take regardless of which solution you choose. I'd also love to see the FCC mandate cable networks the same way they are over the air channels to go digital.

diamond devil, I'm totally with you on HD content. But, if you're looking at VOOM, buyer beware. I haven't read all that much, but there's always a lot of chatter on the "HDTV Programming" forum about VOOM, and it sounds like it's a mixed bag. Check out this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=322324&highlight=voom

just a little bump

Has anyone experienced digital breakup on Comcast cable today? Especially on INHD and digital locals I have noticed alot of pixelization and breakups. I just hope it's on Comcasts end.
Greg

Does anyone know if we will be able to record off of the HD DVR when it comes out? I can do so with my TWC PVR, although I have to do backflips to do so...

I was having reception problems with Comcast too (in Blue Springs), all weekend.

I had TW for 6 years in the northland, while I had a few complaints, it wasn't bad. It's taken me 1 month to realize that Comcast is not going to cut it. The PQ is poor, and not just on the analogs. I really hate the guide software they use and they offer nothing on this side of town - I don't even think they have regular DVR's for my area (Doubt that an HD is coming anytime soon). I can't believe that I have a pay HD tier and they STILL don't have DiscoverHD. I don't like spending the money for an D* HD tuner, and I will miss Metro Sports but I am ready to switch.

Comcast breakups here in Independence too. INHD, SHO, MAX and ABC have been breaking up all weekend but got better as of last night with just a couple of hiccups during the Oscars...

Check this out...
http://broadband.motorola.com/dvr/

Don't know exactally when, but should be within a month.

PS--> The problems you're describing above indicate a signal problem. Since HD signals are more particular when it comes to signal strength, it's possible for your HD channels to have a problem and not your other channels. It could be a loose connection, bad fitting, bad splitter or bad drop. Call in to setup a service call.

Originally posted by Jerky
Check this out...
http://broadband.motorola.com/dvr/

Don't know exactally when, but should be within a month.


Are you referring to TWC or Comcast? I believe Time Warner was going with the Pioneer HD DVR, which, on its website (the Pioneer site), claims a 120GB HDD and firewire output (not sure if it will be enabled in KC though)...

I thought TWC was going with the Scientific Atlanta 8000HD.

Sorry about that. That's in reference to Comcast.

Over in the HD Programming forum, there seems to be a lot of controversy over the picture quality on the Oscars last night. Many report a "soft" picture, similar to DVD quality.

I just wanted to get some opinions of some KC people regarding their impressions of the broadcast. Personally, I thought it was SUPERB, both picture and surround sound (we were watching OTA on a native 1080i RP set, for comparison's sake). I would like to really congratulate KMBC on doing it right, as usual!

What did some of the rest of you think, both OTA and cable?

Brad

I have no complaints about it. My guests thought it was great too. Watching OTA in Olathe.

On another note, KCPT has started to broadcast PBS HD all day long...Finally!!

KMBC DT-07 Over the Air broadcast of the Oscars in HDTV and Dolby Digital 5.1 deserves an Oscar for best broadcasting in local HDTV. Excellent picture along with great audio. Thanks KMBC!

Anybody have trouble picking up KCPT OTA tonight? I had their HD broadcast just before 7PM, switched to another channel for a few minutes, and when I switched back, just got a black screen. Signal strength was still good, just no picture or sound on their digital channel.

As of right now I am receiving KCPT-HDTV on DT 18-01 Over the Air.

speaking of TWC and the SA8000HD box, it was rumored to be released in late Q1. As it is now March I am curious if anybody has heard anything else on this.

Originally posted by jeffdbs
As of right now I am receiving KCPT-HDTV on DT 18-01 Over the Air.

Very odd. I didn't check this morning before I left for work, and I was able to receive all of the other local stations last night OTA on their digital channels. I will have to check KCPT-DT again this evening to see if my receiver (Samsung SIR-T160) has decided it doesn't like KCPT-DT.

By the way, my wife says that KCMO's morning news show is being broadcast in high-def this morning. I didn't know they were doing any local stuff in high-def.

KCHDTV, I believe they are saying Q2, I had never heard Q1. I called, and they said they have not even begun testing in this market yet.

Mike51, I don't know who KCMO is? I know KMBC, KSHB, KSMO, WDAF, and KCTV. I highly doubt that any news show locally is HD, since most of the National Network News shows are not.

Originally posted by kcjefff
I highly doubt that any news show locally is HD, since most of the National Network News shows are not.

That is not a reason to doubt it. There are several local stations nationwide that show their local news in HD, even if the big networks don't do news in HD. Do you have TWC? Ever seen "Brain Game" on InHD? That is a locally produced program by WRAL, which I think is in Raleigh. Of course that station has money, so it's no surprise.

The reason to doubt it is because this is Kansas City. Not exactly the place where new things are tested/started.

Originally posted by kcjefff


Mike51, I don't know who KCMO is? I know KMBC, KSHB, KSMO, WDAF, and KCTV. I highly doubt that any news show locally is HD, since most of the National Network News shows are not.

Sorry, old timer using their old call letters. Should have typed KCTV5-DT.

test

Hi all. I'm the KCTV engineer most responsible for the installation, set-up and maintenance of our CH 24 transmitter and HD digital video and audio encoding equipment. js615 has been in contact with me asking if I would provide some tech info in how we're set up to do DTV.

At his suggestion I've read most of the posts since around Super Bowl time. It seems that most of the interest is in the CBS and KCTV audio and whether we go from digital to analog then back to digital on the CBS HD feed.

We use a fairly basic set-up. We switch between 3 digital sources: KCTV5 NTSC in-house video and stereo audio that is upconverted to 1080I digital video and 2 ch. digital audio, and either one of two CBS-provided HD satellite integrated receiver/decoders (IRD).

Most of the time we're on the upconverted KCTV5 programming. Then normally between 7 & 10pm we go to the CBS-HD feed. During this period we'll also go back to upconverted KCTV5 for local commercial / promo inserts. At this time, except for "The Young and The Restless" and the occasional daytime sporting event, any other programming from CBS is via their "regular" SD feed to affiliates that we upconvert along with the other NTSC video. If fact, their HD satellite transponder isn't even turned on at those times.

CBS' chosen HD format is 1080I lines at 29.97 fps. So we upconvert NTSC to the same specs for the required compatible switching into the DTV ATSC encoder. CBS-HD feeds two audio streams: 2 ch stereo using AC-3 compression and 8 ch audio using Dolby E compression. Dolby E is a professional-only method of compressing up to 8 channels of audio into the bandwidth of uncompressed regular AES digital audio. It is getting popular in pro broadcast and post-production for distribution and editing.

CBS uses the first 6 channels to feed 5.1 digital surround sound to be used by affiliates to then reencode as Dolby Digital 5.1 to viewers. Channels 7 and 8 of the Dolby E stream are a stereo mix of the first 6. At this time most of CBS programming is not 5.1 surround. During those shows, channels 1 and 2 are the same stereo mix as ch. 7 & 8 and chs. 3 - 6 are mute. That's why, for those of you who have a 5.1 DD surround set-up at home, you were only getting audio on left and right front speakers during CBS shows when our DTV encoder was set to switch to 5.1 during all CBS-HD programming. Our Dolby encoder is now always set to 2.0 stereo and at this time will have to be manually switched to 5.1 when CBS provides that material.

During the time we're on the CBS-HD feed we pass it straight thru to the DTV encoder for air. We do not decode to analog. Both video and audio stay in the digital domain from the playback source in New York to your home! Most of CBS' Prime Time programming is in HD, but when a show is only in SD, CBS does the upconversion to HD, still in the digital domain (no NTSC involved).

I welcome this opportunity to share with those of you "techies" that wanted to know a little of the broadcast end of things. I'll occasionally monitor the Kansas City Forum. Even tho I guess I'll call myself somewhat of a perfectionist, problems or glitches do sometimes go unnoticed and I appreciate all of your eyes and ears. Keep in mind that DTV is also a new learning experience for broadcasters as well!!

Welcome DogofMadness-Wow!. Thank you for your information on the KCTV5 DT-24 HDTV broadcasting.

Good to hear from you Dog, great information. I think I speak for all of us when I say that is great to see someone affiliated with one of our local stations take enough interest in our opinions to actually get on here and give us the inside look. Thanks a lot. Don't worry, you will get feedback, maybe more than you want.

Thanks DOG!!!

Has anyone else done a digital channel scan on a Samsung TS-160 in the last day or two? I did one last night, for the first time since KCPT switched to full HD, and once the scan was done, it said it had found ONE digital channel ( 9-1 ). So then, after hunting around in the Samsung's menus, I found something called "Local Networks". I don't remember seeing this option before. After downloading some data from the satellite, the receiver re-booted itself ( on purpose ), and then I did a digital channel scan, and all of my locals showed up.

Has anyone else seen this? I really don't remember messing with the "Local Networks" option before.

DogofMadness -

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for the information!

Originally posted by FrugalRacer
Has anyone else done a digital channel scan on a Samsung TS-160 in the last day or two? I did one last night, for the first time since KCPT switched to full HD, and once the scan was done, it said it had found ONE digital channel ( 9-1 ). So then, after hunting around in the Samsung's menus, I found something called "Local Networks". I don't remember seeing this option before. After downloading some data from the satellite, the receiver re-booted itself ( on purpose ), and then I did a digital channel scan, and all of my locals showed up.

Has anyone else seen this? I really don't remember messing with the "Local Networks" option before.

I had to reboot my T-160 last night, because it had stopped picking up any digitals at all except for KCTV-DT. After the reboot, they all re-appeared, but I don't remember the Local Networks option. I'll look for it when I get home this evening.

It would be great to get representative engineers from all the major network affiliates here in KC on this forum. Omaha's thread did, and it really helped both the viewers with feedback, and the affiliates to provide a better viewing experience. Thanks for joining DOG and best wishes.

Originally posted by Eyedox
It would be great to get representative engineers from all the major network affiliates here in KC on this forum. Omaha's thread did, and it really helped both the viewers with feedback, and the affiliates to provide a better viewing experience. Thanks for joining DOG and best wishes.

Somehow I doubt the engineer for our local WB affiliate (And to a lesser extent, UPN) would show their face here.

I've gotta a question for TWC customers:

I thought we were getting the digital feed for KMCI Channel 38 on our HD lineup on channels. For a long time they said it was coming, and when I used to go to TWC offices, you would see it as "Coming Soon" on the lineup "card." I was just in a TWC office this week, with the new lineup now including HDNet and HDNetMovies, and I could find no mention of the digital version of Channel 38 (KMCI) on the lineup card,

What gives? I thought this was going to be added any day now, but TWC is acting like it's not, with no explanation. Thanks.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pappy97
[B]Somehow I doubt the engineer for our local WB affiliate (And to a lesser extent, UPN) would show their face here.

WB62 (DT-47) is working hard to bring us Kansas City HDTV viewers WB HDTV programming for this upcoming 2004 WB fall season maybe even sooner.

UPN29 (DT-31) is operated by KMBC9 (DT-07) the same great engineers and management that gave us full power ABC 720p HDTV so early in the game of Kansas City HDTV broadcasting (MAY 2002). UPN29 (DT-31) is now HDTV on some UPN programming.

And yes WB62 and UPN29 engineers and management both visit this forum.(See earlier posts)

good question pappy, I even tuned it in on the pioneer using Craash's trick. But I haven't done it in a while.

While I was talking to TWC last night, they said HD DVRs in April, CinemaxHD deal is done, but no ETA, and ESPNHD is STILL in negotiations for a carriage contract(ABSURD!!). No news on BravoHD.

I will have to call back about 38 now.

kcjefff,

Thanks for the info. From what I can see, and this is purely speculation, it appears TWC is in no rush to roll out the digital locals just for the sake of having them - they're going to roll them out only when they have HD programming available, probably to preserve bandwidth and overhead for very little benefit. But it does make me curious why they've been feeding the "coming soon" line for months.

Personally, I'd rather see them jump on ESPN, Starz, Cinemax, Bravo, etc. in HD than a digital 4x3, 480i-only version of a local channel that's not one of the big 4 networks anyway. That said, I'd love to have everything available OTA also available on TWC ASAP.

It's good news about 29 and 62 (hopefully) having HD programming by the fall, and I hope TWC is much faster about rolling them out than they were about 41.

The lack of ESPN-HD notwithstanding, overall, I'm pretty happy about TWC rolling out HD programming. We're lucky to have the 480p version of WDAF available to us, as none of the other cable companies do, and it's only available within a mile or 2 of the antenna OTA.

In my opinion, you guys should be pressuring TWC for 29, not 38.

29 has had UPN HD programming for 5 months now. 38 has not shown any HD programming to date.

Originally posted by hdtimmy
In my opinion, you guys should be pressuring TWC for 29, not 38.

29 has had UPN HD programming for 5 months now. 38 has not shown any HD programming to date.

I am not pushing for 38, but we've had that digital channel practially on our TWC "HD" lineup for a while now, and all of a sudden they act like they had never had any intention of putting it on and have completely ignored the fact they said it was "Coming Soon."

Personally, I enjoy watching the syndicated Simpsons in digital 480i over analog 480i.

To the UPN thing, I personally do not watch any UPN show that might be in HD, let alone do I watch any UPN programming period these days. On the other hand, I might watch WB programming if it were in HD, but I dunno. I would vote for WB to go HD before UPN does. At least to KSMO (WB)'s credit, they are at least digital, but TWC won't pick it up until it goes HD.

I would like to see the WB and FOX affiliates in KC boost their rediculously underpowered signal so that someone can actually receive it farther out than at the base of the tower. I have had no luck in Olathe with FOX -or- WB. It does no good for either station to work hard getting "HD" in place if no one can see their signal.

Originally posted by FrugalRacer
Has anyone else done a digital channel scan on a Samsung TS-160 in the last day or two? I did one last night, for the first time since KCPT switched to full HD, and once the scan was done, it said it had found ONE digital channel ( 9-1 ). So then, after hunting around in the Samsung's menus, I found something called "Local Networks". I don't remember seeing this option before. After downloading some data from the satellite, the receiver re-booted itself ( on purpose ), and then I did a digital channel scan, and all of my locals showed up.

Has anyone else seen this? I really don't remember messing with the "Local Networks" option before.

I lost reception of several HD OTA channels on two Samsung TS-160's last week too. I don't know if it was related to the KCPT changes but both receivers had the same channels go dark. A reboot of the units returned them to normal operation.

The local networks option has always been there. The zip code you enter is used to determine your location, station lineup and guide information to download. You can enter two locations. This would let you get the KC and Topeka channel lineups and listings if you had a setup that allowed you to receive both cities.

Originally posted by Chris Williams

KCTV-DT CBS (Analog 5 - Digital 21)

KCTV-DT is broadcast on UHF channel 21 at 225,000 watts from a temporary antenna. KCTV-DT is only passing the station's 480i signal.

Feel free to correct this information, and I'll incorporate the changes.

The initial listing for this thread still shows KCTV-DT as channel 21. It should be updated to show the current channel, 24, which went into operation when it moved to the new permanent antenna. From what I could find it is broadcast with 820kW of power.

Has KMBC gone down? I haven't been able to pick it up (VHF 7) at all today, even though the regular VHF 9 analog comes in crystal clear. The signal strength checker on my Fusion HDTV card gives me 0 signal. I hope its not just me, I'd hate to think my new card has become fried.

<UPDATED>

Looks like one of the prongs on my Radio Shack antenna snapped from the high winds. Some duct tape later I now have perfect reception again.

Anybody know anything specific about Comcast rolling out their DVR in KC? I was reading online about how they've already rolled it out in some areas so I called our local office. All the guy would tell me is that it should be coming out "really soon". :rolleyes: And he didn't know how much it would cost. Anybody heard anything more specific?

Anybody else having trouble getting KCPT-18 to lock? I used to get it at around 78-85 signal strength, but now all of a sudden the best I can do is around 60-62, with no strong lock (unwatchable). I first noticed this about a week ago.

Brad

Has anybody noticed the new channel 911 on TWC the past few days? Although not optomistic, I'm hoping might be the precursor to a new HD channel. Does anyone have an idea what this might be?

Thanks!

Tonight March 10, 2004 only on KMBC "Stephen King's Kingdom Hospital" scheduled at 9:00-10:00 PM CT time period will air in HDTV/with simulated 5.1 audio. There is audio in the Left/Right Front channels (#1 & #2), in the Center channel (#3) and in the Low Frequency channel (#4). how ever there is no audio in the Left/Right surround channels (#5 & #6)
Coming to us this way from network.

Comcast/DTC-5100 and DVI question ??

Is anyone getting their DVI output on a DTC-5100 yet ? And if so what resolution is your display saying it is?

Greg

If you get a moment please read this thread on the upcoming 2006 analog shutdown. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=378918 I was wanting to get your insight on the chance that Kansas City is going to be in a position to shut down the analog broadcasting on channels 4,5,9,19,29,38,41,50 and 62 at the end of the year 2006. If all the cable and satellite viewers in Kansas City area are included in the 85% FCC goal along with all the new Over the Air HDTV STB'S then it may be very possible to see the end of analog television in Kansas City in only 1,023 days. Thanks for your response.:)

Did 62 make some changes to its DT signal or fix the PSIP information? I'm pulling it in all at once with no changes in my equipment or antenna. Previously I would get no signal. The signal isn't great - only 30 to 35% per the receivers, but it gets a lock.

I hope this is an indication it is going to finally get its digital signal up to the standards required to reach the entire metropolitan area.

Aaron Barnhart will be on the radio station Tuesday March 16 at 10AM on station 89.3 KCUR talking about Kansas City HDTV. http://www.kcur.org/ Please call in your opinions on HDTV in Kansas City.

If you get a moment please read this thread on the upcoming 2006 analog shutdown. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...threadid=378918 I was wanting to get your insight on the chance that Kansas City is going to be in a position to shut down the analog broadcasting on channels 4,5,9,19,29,38,41,50 and 62 at the end of the year 2006. If all the cable and satellite viewers in Kansas City area are included in the 85% FCC goal along with all the new Over the Air HDTV STB'S then it may be very possible to see the end of analog television in Kansas City in only 1,023 days. Thanks for your response.

I only have OTA. I feel the same way as many others in that thread. I would love this to happen in 2006, but I really don't think it will happen that soon. I think that cheap Set Top Boxes need to be available before they turn off analog OTA. For example, my parents only have analog OTA and will probably not change until they are forced to (no matter how much I try). If the shutdown happens in 2006 this will force them to shell out hundreds of dollars to buy a STB for each of the three TVs that they have. If it happens in, say, 2008, hopefully they will only have to shell out 50 dollars per TV (or maybe by that time they will have actually purchased a TV with an ATSC tuner built in).

Here are my comments on all of the stations if the 2006 shutdown happens:
Channel 4 - What in the heck are these guys going to do?! If they shutdown their analog channel, all they will have left is their CRAPPY digital channel. Hopefully this announcement from the FCC will change their plans from "we do not plan to increase our signal strength anytime soon."
Channels 5, 9, 19, 29, 38, 41 - As far as I am concerned, these guys can turn off their analog channels now. I only watch the digital versions of these channels.
Channel 50 -Their digital is not on the air yet but I am sure it will be by 2006. I don't ever watch this channel, so I honestly don't care what happens to 50.
Channel 62 -This station will probably be the first to be shut down. The FCC really wants the bandwidth between channels 52-69 as soon as possible. I have no problem with this because I only watch their digital today. Some HD would be nice, though!! :D

hdtimmy - Right On Brother!

In fact, I'll go you one further - does anyone really care if Fox (ch 4) even remains on the air at all? American Idol and Paradise Hotel in digital will suck just the same as they did in analog!

That said - anything that does get all of the local affiliates to improve signal strength and performance is a plus. However, when we all really stop a moment and look past the handful of folks in KC that really "get" what is going on, we would see that there are very few of us. Heck, most people I talk to, including "Skippy" the wonder-boy sales "dude" at Best Buy, Circuit City and most everywhere else people are buying new TVs, don't know the difference between digital and high def signals! While Skippy can tell you how to get to level three of Doom, he certainly is a pretty weak source of info that is doing most of the educatation of KC consumers on HDTV!

My point is, KC always has been, and always will be a "cow town" in the eyes of advertisers and big bucks corporations. Hell if Sprint and Hallmark left town - who the hell would still be here. That said - don't expect our local affiliates to embrace any legislation that forces them to spend money they feel is wasted on a few individuals. Unfortunately - we are in that minority of individuals...

I have mixed emotions about the analog sign-off. We get all of our locals - analog and digital - OTA. We have 9 tv's in our house, most of them 13" and smaller (10, counting the computer, which has a TV/PVR in it). 9 out of 10 will no longer get local channels after the shutdown, unless we: a) subscribe to "lifeline" cable, b) buy ATSC tuners for all or some of them, or c) subscribe to DISH locals and add DISH boxes at some or all of the TV's. Any of these options is pretty expensive. (I guess there's a fourth option: replace all the TV's!)

Selfishly, I'd like to see the analogs stay up forever, but I know that's not practical. I just hope that all the digitals are at full strength soon, and that tuners keep coming down in price quickly! I'm fairly certain that WILL happen.

Brad

Is anybody else following THIS THREAD (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=372855&perpage=20&pagenumber=1) regarding the NCAA tournament HD broadcasts? Looks like the Kansas City pod will be the only one broadcasting HD, but I'm wondering if Channel 5 plans to multi-cast the HD games when they show non-KC games (generally other Big 12 schools).

I'm a KU fan, and this is great news, as obviously they will be broadcasting KU games in both HD and analog, but it would be nice to still be able to watch the HD games if they are broadcasting a different game on analog.

I tried to call KCTV, but they are in some kind of training meetings and all I get is voice mail.

I am not really worried about it. I would be watching any HD game if there is one available, so the fact that our region is HD just means I will watch all of the games on. If they weren't I might have missed a couple.

The issue is that channel 5 will not likely show all of the KC pod games (ie if they show Texas Tech or Texas or any other games). If a game is being played in Kansas City, but is not broadcast on their analog signal, CBS corporate is allowing affiliates to go ahead and show the HD game as well....My question is channel 5 going to pass both games along.

I would love to be able to switch between two games, one being in HD would be better!

edit: spell check is good :D

I know that WIBW (CBS 13) in Topeka did this during March Madness last year.

DogOfMadness, do you know if your station will be showing all of the HD games on your digital channel, regardless of what game is on your analog channel? Just like last year, CBS New York is letting their affiliates choose this option.

If not, please see what you can do to make this happen. Thanks!!

It was announced today that FOX sports will be doing many HD broadcasts this year. This includes select NFL and MLB games including the World Series and the SuperBowl. Here's the thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=380431

For those of us who can't receive WDAF's piss poor digital signal Over The Air, WHAT CAN WE DO?!?!

I have already complained via e-mail and over the phone to them. I have had e-mail discussions with Aaron Barnhart. My next step is to try and get in touch with someone at FOX corporate. WDAF is FOX Owned and Operated so this may be our only route. Has anyone here tried this already and do you already have a contact at FOX corporate?

Originally posted by hdtimmy
For those of us who can't receive WDAF's piss poor digital signal Over The Air, WHAT CAN WE DO?!?!

Since WDAF is Fox O&O, it will be possible to get Fox HD in the Kansas City DMA via DirecTV when it becomes available later this year.

Yeah, Yeah, rub it in... :)

I have contacted FOX through this channel.

FOX HQ http://www.newscorp.com/index2.html

FOX Television http://www.newscorp.com/management/foxtvstations.html


Dear FOX Broadcasting:

I am trying to be a loyal Fox television viewer here in the Kansas City Missouri Metro area. I have an digital HDTV and Over the Air (OTA) digital decoder box along with an outdoor television antenna pointed at your broadcasting tower to receive FOX widescreen television and future FOX HDTV. But the signal is so weak FOX programming does not show up in my television guide. I can receive ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS and UPN full-power 1080i and 720p HDTV along with WB full-power 480p (WB 1080i HDTV coming this summer) television broadcasting. I have helped many of my family and neighbors set up their new HDTV's, 5.1 audio receivers and outdoor antennas to receive all of our local Kansas City HDTV television broadcasting signals. But FOX programming just does not show up in the guide of any of my family and friends I have help with their HDTV's. We all live in the Kansas City Metro area and I only live about 28 miles from your tower. I have a direct line-of-sight to your tower but your signal is so weak all of us are missing out on WDAF FOX programming and news here in Kansas City Metro area. All of us here in Kansas City want to see WDAF FOX 4 (DT-34) join the Kansas City HDTV 1080i and 720p lineup. Please help and thank you FOX broadcasting.

A little Kansas City HDTV news.

75% rule kicks in April 1st, 2004. http://www.tvtechnology.com/dlrf/one.php?id=366

Hearst-Argyle (KMBC) KCWE-DT UPN 29 is going to get some new equipment for HDTV broadcasting. http://www.digitalbroadcasting.com/content/news/article.asp?docid={A83DDFDF-2464-45F9-9A09-B36C6F1A51CA}

Originally posted by hdtimmy

DogOfMadness, do you know if your station will be showing all of the HD games on your digital channel, regardless of what game is on your analog channel? Just like last year, CBS New York is letting their affiliates choose this option.

[/B]

I've seen an internal email that seems to indicate we'll have all HD games from KC on our digital channel regardless of what game is on the analog channel. I'll pass on confirmation of that when I find out more tomorrow.

Also, for those of you who are set up for DD 5.1 audio, I have some bad news! Due to equipment problems that have developed our audio will just be 2.0 stereo this weekend. I'm having Dolby send a replacement unit for delivery early next week. So HD games from St. Louis and beyond should be 5.1 from us.

Okay, maybe I'm missing something, but the first set of NCAA BB games on CBS (KCTV) are not coming through in HD. Anyone else noticing the same? Even check the CBS HDTV schedule on CBS website. Mentions nothing about games being broadcast in HDTV.

http://www.cbs.com/info/hdtv/index.shtml

The HD games are on Friday and Sunday. Check out this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=379388

DogOfMadness Wrote:
I've seen an internal email that seems to indicate we'll have all HD games from KC on our digital channel regardless of what game is on the analog channel. I'll pass on confirmation of that when I find out more tomorrow.

I received this from Dan Somes earlier today:

Tim, I appreciate your interest in KCTV 5. I am happy to inform you that Kirk and I talked about this already and we have full intention to run all of the available HD games from CBS. We hope that our viewers enjoy the games. Please feel free to write with any other questions.

Great news!!

Awesome...If only I were a basketball fan! &%#&!@

If only CBS would have NASCAR and not those goofballs over at FOX!!!!

Originally posted by jeffdbs
75% rule kicks in April 1st, 2004.
Too bad it's not a 75% of FULL POWER Rule for FOX and WB.

This is new for local HDTV reception service. This may show up in Kansas City someday. http://www.usdtv.com/

Looks like TWC finally did the firmware upgrade to the Pioneer 3510HD STB. Now the DVI output works with my Samsung HLN5065W TV.
This was a known issue by Pioneer as acknowledged in other posts.

Regarding Everest and IEEE 1394 out for record ability

I emailed Everest about implementation of firewire ports on April first and did receive a reply from a Mr Wally Stewart:

Larry,

We do have the HD set top boxes with the 1394 fire wire in stock. SA must provide us with software code to enable this connection. According to SA this code with be available in April. Once it has been tested and approved by Everest engineering, it will be distributed to the HD set tops during an overnight maintenance.

Thanks,

Wally


While he didn't mention the box they would give me it looks like I may be dumping Dish and moving to Everest if they don't do anything dumb like locally downrez HD via IEEE 1394 or independently decide to lock out premium HD channels. The box someone here said they are using doesn't have DVI or IEEE 1394 out so I have no clue what they will use. SA site talks about having IEEE 1394 out on the 3250HD but their PDF doesn't show it there. While I currently only have projectors that accept component I will, I'm sure be moving to something that does have DVI this summer or fall.

I have emailed him about what box they will be using.

In the meantime I'm salivating over the potential to again be able to record on my DVHS recorders and dumping Dish since they have yet to commit to enabling their firewire on the 901 PVR!

Be nice if they offer a HDPVR as well but I can wait.

Larry

Originally posted by Jerky
Sorry about that. That's in reference to Comcast.

The initial tests did involve the 8KHD. But, due to "issues", the hardware has been changed to the Pioneer HD DVR. There is a possibility we will see it in April, but don't be surprised to see it slip to May.

Edit: Although it doesn't come across in the quote, this is in reference to TWC.

The Comcast HD DVR dig boxes are the Motorola 6204, not the Pioneer HD DVR box. This is very verified info.

Originally posted by Jerky
The Comcast HD DVR dig boxes are the Motorola 6204, not the Pioneer HD DVR box. This is very verified info.

My post is in reference to TWC. I edited my original to be more clear.

The last couple of days my STB (Pioneer 3510HD) has been rebooting quite often (every few minutes). Have any other TWC users been experiencing this? Will be calling TWC shortly....

Originally posted by Jerky
The Comcast HD DVR dig boxes are the Motorola 6204, not the Pioneer HD DVR box. This is very verified info.

Any idea when they might hit KC?

No, my box has been pretty stable. What is the latest date of your software (as reported on the diag channel)?

Originally posted by fcsmith
The last couple of days my STB (Pioneer 3510HD) has been rebooting quite often (every few minutes). Have any other TWC users been experiencing this? Will be calling TWC shortly....

I had this happen to me a month or so ago. Prior to calling, I did a hard reboot (removed the power cord) and miracles of miracles, it resolved the problem.

As always, YMMV.

Nothing is set in stone yet, but i hear Comcast has employees doing beta testing right now. So hopefully DVR will be available within a few weeks.

Originally posted by Jerky
Nothing is set in stone yet, but i hear Comcast has employees doing beta testing right now. So hopefully DVR will be available within a few weeks.

Thanks.

Originally posted by kchdtv
Looks like TWC finally did the firmware upgrade to the Pioneer 3510HD STB. Now the DVI output works with my Samsung HLN5065W TV.
This was a known issue by Pioneer as acknowledged in other posts.

kchdtv,

Thanks for the update. Did you see a PQ improvement with the DVI connnection? Previous threads mentioned that there was little improvement and sometimes even a degredation of PQ with DVI between the Pioneer STB and Samsung HLN.

kcsooner,

Definitely no degradation with DVI. I felt it may have been slightly better with DVI. I did my tests by pluging the DVI cable in/out and then switching the TV between DVI and Component and then observing PQ.

Originally posted by kchdtv
Looks like TWC finally did the firmware upgrade to the Pioneer 3510HD STB. Now the DVI output works with my Samsung HLN5065W TV.
This was a known issue by Pioneer as acknowledged in other posts.
I think this firmware upgrade is what has been causing the problem I'm having with my 3510HD (periodic reboots). I called to have a technician come out, but they never showed up. But then I remembered the above post about the upgrade for the DVI port, and decided to try disconnecting the DVI cable, and reconnecting with component. I've had no problems since doing that. I do want to be able to use the DVI port, but at least now I can let TWC know what the problem is, and I assume they'll have to get another update from Pioneer to fix the bugs that the new firmware release introduced.

On another note, Craash, I'm glad to hear that TWC is going with the Pioneer HD-DVR (I assume it's the 4000HD-DVR). From reading posts in the HD Recorder forum, it sounds as though the 8000HD has been having some problems. The Pioneer looks like a nice model, and appears to have firewire and DVI standard. Can't wait to get it!

Hi Kansas City Thread: I'm the Director of Engineering at KMBC/KCWE. First I'd like to thank you for your kind words over the past months. We have a great group of engineers at Channel 9 & 29 who are proud to provide high quality DTV to the Kansas Market. I just wanted to give you a heads up that KMBC is scheduling an upgrade to an exciter in it's DTV transmitter, which may happen as soon as Thursday, April 1...no April fool's pun intended. We're expecting it will only take us a day, but just in case, we picked Thursday since ABC has all SD programming in prime time that night. We'll keep the forum informed as to the schedule and progress of this upgrade. TI

Oh my............... I am lost for words. IMHO KMBC ABC DT-07 full power 720p HDTV primetime programming starting in the spring 2002 was the spark that got HDTV going in Kansas City. Even though KCPT PBS DT-18 is Kansas City first digital broadcaster, you guys and gals at KMBC/KCWE have truly been the leaders of HDTV in Kansas City. Welcome! and thank you for the information.

Wow, thanks TechItal, welcome to the forum. It is nice to know we are getting recognition. If you don't mind me asking. how did you hear of the thread? Also, what is an exciter and what does it do? One last question, have you heard anything about TWC adding KCWE to its HDTV lineup? Again, welcome, and thanks for contributing to our little HD community.

TI,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for the participation. Kansas City seems to finally be stepping up regarding HD programming, much credit going to KMBC. Monday Night Football is still the current reference for OTA HD programming I have seen.
I will admit that last nights' KU game looked pretty good, too.
My question for you is what is the likely timeframe for more HD programming? I am particularly interested in the NHL games, like today, but also in movies and prime time programming. ABC is said to be gearing up for a near complete prime time this fall, but it is unclear exactly what will be HD. Do you have any timeframe for local news etc to be broadcast in HD?
Thanks again for your participation,
Robert

Good news on the KU game tomorrow and thank you KCTV5 (DT-24) for broadcasting full power CBS 1080i HDTV programming. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=382077

We've been tracking the forum for quite some time. The postings have been very interesting. Regarding the exciter question; it is a special type of amplifier that resides in high power transmitters. It provides the first level of amplification of the low level digital bitstream and it determines the RF channel and modulation type in which the transmitter operates. It also shapes the signal and helps keeps the transmitter operating at it's proper specifications.
I don't have any info about KCWE on TWC but I'll check.
Regarding more HD on ABC, we should find out more in a few weeks at our ABC Engineering meeting at the National Association of Broadcaster's meeting.
Newscasts in HD will be a while in coming. There are MAJOR infrastructure changes that have to be made to stations before that happens. TI

TI,

Let me add my welcome to the forum, and thanks for participating!

My question is regarding freezeups and pixelization. It seems that, for some reason, KMBC's broadcasts are more prone to these problems than the UHF channels. Is this just my imagination, or is it just because we watch ABC more than the others?

Brad

I live about 35 miles north of KC in Holt, MO. I am picking all the digital stations with an indoor antenna. Sometimes I have to move it a little. Did anyone hear the Walt Bodine show last week? It was all about DTV in KC. I only heard the last few minutes but it sounded like a great show. :) I have had a reciever for over a year now. Out of frustration I haven't checked for many months to see what I could pull in. The show prompted me to hook up the antenna again and now I am stoked!

Walt Bodine on KCUR 89.3 FM radio website 3-16-04 playback with Aaron Barnhart on Kansas City HDTV. http://www.kcur.org/programListDetail.asp?ID=2

Originally posted by jeffdbs
Walt Bodine on KCUR 89.3 FM radio website 3-16-04 playback with Aaron Barnhart on Kansas City HDTV. http://www.kcur.org/programListDetail.asp?ID=2

Thanks for the link.

KCTV Transmitter Down
Hey all, been awhile since I've posted here. Just wanted to let you all know that KCTV's D transmitter is down on Tue 3-30 6:44pm - ??? for maintenance. I had just gotten a Dish 811 reciever and was trying to scan in all the local digitals I could, and wouldn't ya know it. The one channel I wanted most was not there. So I called KCTV and they told me they were doing some kind of maintenance with no guess as to when it would be done....

Here's the scoop. We lost our HD encoder at mid-morning, which caused loss of programming. For some reason it lost all internal settings. It took a while to reset the many parameters of the encoder for what we need.

The transmitter itself was OK. We turned it off because there was no valid program stream. The feed to TWC was restored about 19:05 and the Ch. 24 XMTR was brought back on the air about 19:20.

Thank you for bringing KCTV5 DT-24 OTA back to life. :)

The scheduled exciter replacement for KMBC's transmitter will not occur tomorrow. Unfortunately, we didn't get all of the parts from the manufacturer. We will reschedule for sometime in the near future.

Re: Bradtothebone's question. VHF DTV is slightly more prone to pixelization than UHF because of a phenomenon called "impulse noise". This is electrical noise usually generated by motors such as hair dryers and the like. It can also be caused by faulty insulators on power poles that can sometimes arc. These devices sent pulses of RF that may interfere with your receiver. The higher up the VHF band, the less this "noise" affects the reception. TI

TWC HD-DVR

I asked this question today of TWC:

When will you be rolling out the HD-DVR?

Got this answer less than an hour later:

The tentative release schedule for the new HD-DVR converter is June 2004.
Please continue to watch for updates on our website, www.twckc.com

Mike

technicalitalian-

Thanks for the reply. I had suspected that electrical noise might be the issue, as I had noticed some problems when the washing machine was running. I suppose the dishwasher, refrigerator, vacuum, etc will do the same thing to various extents. Anybody else noticing this with KMBC-DT?

Brad

Brad

I made sure that every thing was off last night during Kingdom Hospital. I had a few glitches during the hour I was watching. It might have been the refrigerator (I would unplug it but my beer might get hot). I try to make sure to not have anything running while watching ABC.

Glenn

Glenn-

WHATEVER YOU DO..........Don't let your beer get hot. Even HDTV isn't worth THAT!

Brad

I went through a similar troubleshooting process for KMBC-DT about a year ago. I actually went and turned off every circuit in the house except for the one dedicated to my HT equipment. It reduced the frequency of the dropouts, but it did not eliminate them.

About two months later, I replaced my antenna with several bigger, highly directional antennae and made sure they were tied to the common grounding block. I haven't had any problems since.

I always called this "spark-gap" interference and assumed that it was being caused by appliances and such in my house and in my neighbors' houses.

Thanks to technicalItalian for explaining the Impulse Noise phenomenon. It drove me crazy for a long time! It's good to hear an official explanation.

I guess one question I have now is whether KMBC-DT is going to want to keep VHF 7 after the analog shutdown occurs :) or relocate to VHF 9. If I remember right, each broadcaster gets a choice about what happens on D-Day. But wouldn't that be really expensive?

Bradtothebone wrote:
Anybody else noticing this with KMBC-DT?

My VHF analogs are VERY clean, so my KMBC-DT is rock solid most of the time.

Lightning is really the only thing that affects KMBC-DT on my setup.

I haven't seen a breakup on my UHF digitals for a LONG time. It takes a close lightning strike to affect my UHF digitals. And when that happens, that's when I get off of the couch and disconnect the antenna cable from my expensive STB. :D

My antenna is in the attic, so I imagine that has something to do with the interference. (The "signal" from inside the house is stronger than it would be if the antenna was on the roof.)

Brad

My KMBC DT-07 OTA signal and picture has been great on both my attic VHF/UHF and my outdoor UHF antenna. I do have a direct line of sight to the KMBC/KCWE tower. RG-6 shielded cable and a static cable block grounded to the house cold water pipe helps me to have a noise free VHF digital reception.

Would I benifit from using a grounding block with an attic antenna?

KPXE-DT 51 (PAX 50) is on the air.

They are multicasting and are at FULL POWER (hear that WDAF?!?!).

50-1 is PAX East (Bascially a mirror of analog 50)
50-2 is PAX West
50-3 is "Worship"
50-4 is "Faith"

I will probably never watch these, but it is nice to see KPXE broadcasting more programming than they need to by law.

Originally posted by Michael.Chrisco
Would I benifit from using a grounding block with an attic antenna?

Mine is attic mounted and it helped my situation.

Good news hdtimmy. Does anyone know if PAX 50 (DT-51) is broadcasting from the same tower as KSHB 41 (DT-42)? Signal strength is good for me at 92%. Maybe we can see some Hallmark HDTV 1080i movies on DT-51 soon. :)

They are on a different tower.

TV41, DT42, TV38, and DT36 are all on a new tower on Blue River Road between 71 highway and I-435.

TV50, DT51, and several radio stations are on a new candleabra tower just to the north near I-435 and 63rd. Here is some info on that tower: http://www.richlandtowers.com/OpenHouse/OpenHouseDisplay.asp?p1=10&p9=I&Cat=119

Thanks- Hey I found some news on Sinclair stations {WB62 (DT-47)} push to better equipment for HDTV broadcasting (3-31-2004). Hopefully this is good news for us loyal Kansas City HDTV viewers to see WB 1080i programming on DT-47 soon. http://www.broadcastnewsroom.com/

I guess one question I have now is whether KMBC-DT is going to want to keep VHF 7 after the analog shutdown occurs :) or relocate to VHF 9. If I remember right, each broadcaster gets a choice about what happens on D-Day. But wouldn't that be really expensive? [/B][/QUOTE]

There will be some expense to do this but our viewers will be better served if we switched back to RF CH 9. Presently on CH 7, we have an FCC mandated slight notch in our signal towards the south in order to protect another Ch 7. If we go back to Ch. 9, we can have our full omni-directional pattern. Our transmitter is capable of running on either channel and the Ch 9 antenna doesn't care if the signal is analog or digital; as you know, for that matter, neither does yours. TI

Thanks for your comments regarding sign-on of KPXE-DT. You are correct that we are multicasting at full licensed power (1 mW ERP) as of 0600 CST on 4/1/04. I am still working the "bugs" out of the new transmitter and related equipment in the transport stream, so there may be brief periods of reduced power or off-air operations as final modifications are made over the next few weeks.

The equipment has been up and running in test mode since the last week in December, so hopefully most of the problems have been resolved.

Be happy to answer any questions from my side of the signal if anyone has any.......

Doc

TVDOC-

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for the info. Do you guys have any high def plans, or will you be multicasting full time?

Jeffdbs-

Yes, my attic antenna is grounded, and the only channel I have problems with is DT-07. All the VHS analogs are crystal-clear and solid (I get video noise during thunderstorms, but that's no surprise). When KMBC-DT moves up to channel 9, that should help some.

Brad

TVDOC,

Welcome!! I must say I am suprised. I was not expecting the multicasting and having you join this forum is a big plus. Great job!!

50-1 has a sound problem, it is waaayy too low.
Do you have any plans to include the electronic program guide data for these 4 channels into your PSIP stream?

Technically, at 1000 KW, you have the strongest digital signal in KC. But I know there are other factors invloved because the FCC gave you such a high channel number (51). In fact, they gave you the highest possible in this transition. They want 52-69 back for other uses. Aren't you lucky? Bet that 1000 KW hurts the budget a little, huh?

hdtimmy-

The low audio level on 50-1 is the result of the fact that we are simulcasting the local analog signal on that channel, and our analog audio is mono all the way back to the studio, the remaining program streams (51-2,-3,-4)come directly off TVRO (satellite downlink) and are in stereo. I am working on this, but at the present I can't raise the digital audio level for 51-1 without overmodulating the NTSC (analog) transmitter.

Regarding the forum, one of your members (I suspect jeffdbs) called me at my office and tipped me off to the forum......I am always interested in viewer feedback.

On channel assignment, we actually requested the N, N+1 (50/51) channel assignment, due to the fact that we were planning to replace our 30-year old analog transmitter at the same time as the digital unit was installed, and transmitting on adjacent channels makes the antenna construction, and transmitter design considerably less expensive. Further, when the analog is finally turned off, it will be a simple matter to change the exciters and retune the analog to turn it into a back-up transmitter for DTV on channel 51.

We will be adding the program guide to PSIP, time-frame unknown at the moment.

Regarding cost of operation on our channel(s), the power consumed by both the new analog and DTV transmitters (due to more efficient technology) is LESS than the old analog used by itself, which doesn't make KCP&L too happy......they still come to my site thinking that I am bypassing the meters. Electric bill to run both is about $4500/month.

If you want a brief photo tour of our transmitter build-out process from the old to the new, point your browser to: paxmidwest.com, click on "pax stations", then click on the Missouri/KPXE license plate (sorry guys, this site won't let me post a URL yet), and you can see our old rig, it's removal, and the new gear being installed. Click on any of the photos to enlarge.

bradtothebone-

We have no plans for HD transmissions at this time due to bandwidth limitations on our network uplink/downlink transponders. We may add a fifth program to our transport stream in the near future, I don't have the details at the moment.

Doc

Well... it sounds like the DVRs are taking a back seat again, for now. The DVR boxes that Comcast was going to get were single tuner boxes, which means that you couldn't watch one thing live while recording something else. It sounds like rather than get the single tuner boxes now and the dual tuner boxes later, Comcast is going to get the dual tuner boxes later. Me thinks primarily because most ppl want to be able to do what the single tuner box won't let you do. So it's gonna be more waiting.
Man doesn't that suck. :(

Originally posted by Jerky
Well... it sounds like the DVRs are taking a back seat again, for now. The DVR boxes that Comcast was going to get were single tuner boxes, which means that you couldn't watch one thing live while recording something else. It sounds like rather than get the single tuner boxes now and the dual tuner boxes later, Comcast is going to get the dual tuner boxes later. Me thinks primarily because most ppl want to be able to do what the single tuner box won't let you do. So it's gonna be more waiting.
Man doesn't that suck. :(

That sucks, but thanks a lot for the update.

Originally posted by TVDOC
Thanks for your comments regarding sign-on of KPXE-DT. You are correct that we are multicasting at full licensed power (1 mW ERP) as of 0600 CST on 4/1/04. I am still working the "bugs" out of the new transmitter and related equipment in the transport stream, so there may be brief periods of reduced power or off-air operations as final modifications are made over the next few weeks.

The equipment has been up and running in test mode since the last week in December, so hopefully most of the problems have been resolved.

Be happy to answer any questions from my side of the signal if anyone has any.......

Doc

TVDOC...From the gang at KMBC/KCWE....Congtratulations on getting your DTV on the air. Multicasting is soooo much fun. We wish you well...keep those IOT's a burnin.

TI

Good news for all of us Kansas City HDTV viewers- The networks are picking up steam on the roll out of 1080i and 720p HDTV. http://broadcastengineering.com/ar/broadcasting_special_report_high/index.htm

Why does KMBC only broadcast the digital signal between noon and midnight, or thereabouts?

Originally posted by FrugalRacer
Why does KMBC only broadcast the digital signal between noon and midnight, or thereabouts?

KMBC and KCWE are now on the air with DTV from 6AM to Midnight. This is in accordance with the FCC rules that stations have to simulcast a minimum of 75%, effective May 1, 2004.

technicalitalian

I thought I read somewhere about your station KMBC/KCWE moving or building a new HQ here in Kansas City. If this is true will your new studio be HDTV ready in equipment? I quess what I am trying to say is will we viewers get to see the newscast someday soon in true 720p HDTV? Thanks for any information.

Dear jeffdbs, yes we are in the beginning stages of building a new facility that will be HD capable; however at this time, there has been no decision as to when we will do news in HD. The cost of converting all of the field camcorders to HD is presently prohibitive, especially since stations receive absolutely no additional revenue for broadcasting in HD. TI

Ahh, I think its just the newscasters don't really want us to see what they really look like in HD.

HAHAHA

But seriously, I would suggest the in-studio stuff in HD and the remote stuff in SD. I think people would understand the remotes being in SD at least during a transition. That way 1/2 of it would be HD.

We need to get the broadcasters to move their bugs more to the corner.
Now that people have TVs that only over-scan a few percent we don't need it to be 4 inches from both the side and bottom.

Speaking of bugs, what in the heck is up with KCPT's??

It is WAY too big and why is it almost in the center of the screen?!?!

I have given them a month to fix this, anyone have a good contact at the station? Time to start e-mailing. :rolleyes:

TVDOC Wrote:
If you want a brief photo tour of our transmitter build-out process from the old to the new, point your browser to: paxmidwest.com, click on "pax stations", then click on the Missouri/KPXE license plate (sorry guys, this site won't let me post a URL yet), and you can see our old rig, it's removal, and the new gear being installed. Click on any of the photos to enlarge.
Thanks!! This was very interesting. Your old tower is gone and you are leasing space on the new Richland tower, correct? Is the old transmitter building still there? The new Richland building must be pretty big, their website says they can accomodate 20 TV or FM stations and it looks like just your two stations take up quite a bit of room.

I know this is a small thing, but your PSIP time didn't change on Sunday. It is an hour behind. My on screen guide operates slower when all of the station times do not match.

hdtimmy -

We owned the old building and tower, and entered into a joint venture with Richland to develop the facility. They now own and manage the site. The building is the same shell as was always there, however it has been remodelled inside in order to provide finished space for several broadcasters. Our space is approximately 25% of the building. Space has been partially finished inside for two to three additional TV transmission areas, and several more radio transmitters. I'm not certain where they would put 20, without expanding the building.

I'll check out the PSIP clock, thanks for letting me know......

Doc

Originally posted by hdtimmy
Speaking of bugs, what in the heck is up with KCPT's?? It is WAY too big and why is it almost in the center of the screen?!?!

I know precisely why it's where it's at. People that have a 4:3 HDTV (not widescreen) will see the logo in the corner of their screens even if they select not to do letterboxing (so it chops off the lateral sides of the wide picture.) I agree that it looks rediculous to have it where it's at. It's also too visible and distracting. IMHO, if there is ALREADY a PBS logo in another corner from the network, keep your stupid local one TURNED OFF. I dont donate money to watch a bunch of rediculous billboards. I know what channel I am watching, thanks very much!

hdtimmy and eyedox- KCPT always listen to their viewers and has responded in a short time to my call or e-mail. KCPT has a great management and engineering team and has done so much to advance HDTV in Kansas City. A simple and nice e-mail or call to KCPT to express your concern may be all that is needed on KCPT large logo's.:)

Is any of the engineering, station management or HDTV viewers who read this forum going to the NAB 2004 conference this year? Aaron Barnhart from the Kansas City Star will not be going this year so it would be real nice if someone from Kansas City is going to the NAB. I can only dream of someday going to the NAB in Las Vegas. http://www.nabshow.com/ It would be nice to have someone from Kansas City who is going to the show to write a small overview of the NAB products and talks on our Kansas City Local HDTV forum.

jeffdbs Wrote:
KCPT always listen to their viewers and has responded in a short time to my call or e-mail.

OK, I just e-mailed kcpt@kcpt.org since you won't give me the e-mail address of your contact. :p :D

I just received word from KCTV5 that they will be showing the early rounds of The Masters in HD on their digital channel while continuing normal programming on their analog.

They will air live on Thursday and Friday from 3 to 5:30.

Of course, if you have more than just OTA, it will also be available on DirecTV, Dish, and on InHD if you have Comcast or TWC.

Saturday and Sunday rounds will only be on CBS and KCTV5 will be showing this in HD.

So much for KCPT catering to their paying members with the correct widescreen HD equipment. :rolleyes:

"I know what you mean about the logo position. This is necessitated by the 4:3 screens that are still out there in droves. Some of these are HD capable 4:3 and others are set top decoder boxes feeding a standard 4:3 analog tv. It is one of the draw backs to being an 'early adopter' of the digital technology. I wish I could give you a better answer for the intrusiveness of the logo. I hope you continue to enjoy our hd programming, even with the logo......Bob Hagg, Director of Engineering, KCPT"

Doesn't HD material show up as letterbox on standard TV's??

If what he says is true, then the PBS HD logo at the top of the screen would be cut off for those viewers with 4:3 equipment.

Also, why are CBS, ABC, and NBC's logos in the proper place?