http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/Imustbeanerd.jpg

Welcome to my second screen review. This review will include lower gain screen materials, what they do, and what they are made of. I see this as a benefit to people because screen surfaces and materials remain a mystery to most. It will include some DIY materials but must be somewhat limited as there are literally thousands of materials to bounce light off of. So, of course, they cannot all be covered here. Finally, at the end, there will be a fun little shootout between some DIY materials and the infamous Stewart Firehawk.

In the end, it is important to try to achieve the greatest benefit for the environment or viewing you want to achieve. This review will focus on about 21 materials from .95 gain to over 6 gain and will allow a peek at a few more. It will include some past reviewed materials for fun and reference, and 5 newly evaluated paintable screen emulsions. This review is for fun and therefore full of my observations and opinions. I will not use any special instruments in the review process (only my eyes), and I will try to present all information in understandable terms. My camera is also not perfect or calibrated for color accuracy; however, all pictures are untouched (unless noted) and were taken from the same setting (not auto). Therefore you can use all pictures as references against themselves. I will try to describe the ambient lighting conditions when able. Keep in mind when navigating through the information what the most important needs for your home theater are, such as: gain, viewing angle, ambient light, color accuracy, deepest blacks etc. Unfortunately, there is no one perfect screen surface so you will likely have some tradeoffs. This review will only cover the screen surface materials and not how they can be integrated into your theater. Also, I can only comment on samples that were sent to me. If a manufacturer sent the wrong stuff or mislabeled their product, they will probably will be confused with my comments.

I get paid nothing to do this. I do not endorse or work for any manufacturer or even have any ties to the AV industry except as a hobbyist. I also do not claim to know why each manufacturer does what they do except that they are in business and they likely choose products that they can sell. Finally, and most importantly, I am not a certified expert. I will attempt to pass on what I’ve learned through this journey and will try my best to call them as I see them.


The screens that I will try to present are…

1. Dazian – Matte non-perforated White .95
2. EZtheater - Comparable to Draper Cineflex
3. Da-Lite - Da Mat 1.0
4. Behr – 50/50 Pearlescent/Silver Stag (house paint)
5. Americas Finest - Flat White (spray paint)
6. Vutec – Vu Flex Pro
7. Draper – 1300 / Vutec Brite White
8. Da-Lite - Cinema Vision 1.3
9. Da-lite - High Contrast Cinema Vision 1.1
10. Stewart - Firehawk 1.35
11. Stewart – Retro Grey ~1.5
12. Liquiscreen ~1.5
13. Draper – F1500
14. Vutec – Soundscreen 5 .85
15. Vutec – Soundscreen 10 .85
16. Vutec perforated. (black or white for leader)
17. Da-Lite - High Power
18. Da-Lite - Glass Bead
19. Stewart – Ultramatte
20. Draper – 2500
21. Vutec – Pearl Bright 3.1
22. Vutec – Matte Pearl 2.7
23. Vutec – Silver Star 6.0
24. Vutec – Grey Dove / Draper Hi Def Grey
25. Goo – Digital Grey
26. Rust-oleum – High Heat “Silver” (spray paint)
27. Rust-oleum – Metallic Finish “Aluminum” (spray paint)
28. Rust-oleum – Winter Grey Gloss
29. Vutec - Rear–Vu / Draper – Cineflex 2.5 (rear projection)

Before we go any further if you are new to understanding screens, or just need a refresher I highly recommend reading Cinema Source’s Front Projection Design Guide before we get started.
http://www.diyprojectiontv.com/Screen_Guide-72.pdf

Their guide covers:

Chapter 1: Basic Screen Technology
Chapter 2: Understanding Aspect Ratios
Chapter 3: Types of Front Projection Screens
Chapter 4: Front Projection Screen Materials
Chapter 5: Multiple Aspect Ratio Screens
Chapter 6: Optimum Screen Size
Chapter 7: Front Screen Installation Methods
Chapter 8: Motorized Screen Wiring
Chapter 9: Specifying Screens
Chapter 10: Glossary of Screen Terminology

It’s a great place to get started…


Now, describing the screen materials!

All screen surfaces will keep their corresponding numbering system throughout the review. If you Click on the Screen Name Below you can see a sample photo of the screen material. I did my best to get a close up to show surface texture. Some of these photos had to be retouched to approximate the colors more accurately. It is incredibly difficult to match colors so do not take it as gospel. Generally, the white piece of paper (with numbers) in bottom left corner can serve as a decent reference.

1. Dazian – Matte non-perforated White .95 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/1.jpg)
The Dazian product is a very white pvc/vinyl tensionable product with two different sides. The primary side is shown in the photo and has texture. This may account for their .95 gain rating. The backside is very similar to the other white vinyl PVC screens like Draper 1300/Vutec Brite White. The sheen on the surface likely brings the gain up above 1.0 but can hotspot from the sheen. Both sides have excellent viewing angles.

2. EZtheater 1.1 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/2.jpg)
This product is identical to Draper Cineflex and probably other standard matte white vinyl screens in the industry. It has a slight sheen so you can get slightly higher gain than 1.0. The manufacturer says 1.1 but I think it’s slightly higher. Like all matte white screens it has a great viewing angle and color accuracy. It is very durable and doesn’t require tensioning like the pvc variety making it ideal for pull down screens.

3. Da-Lite - Da Mat 1.0 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/3.jpg)
Hey, it doesn’t get any simpler than this. This material is a standard bone white pvc/vinyl product that of course needs tensioning. Rated at 1.0 gain it would make a great standard screen for many applications. Excellent diffusion and viewing angle.

4. Behr – 50/50 Pearlescent/Silver Stag (house paint) (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/4.jpg)
Basically equivalent to all the other matte white products. I could not see the pearlescent paint adding anything to its visual performance. I would guess this is the eggshell finish. The mixture is slightly off white in the grey direction but nobody would likely be able to tell from the image. For DIYers, I recommend just going with a standard bright white paint. Flat or eggshell finish should eliminate any hot spotting from a sheen.

5. Americas Finest - Flat White (spray paint) ~1.0 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/5.jpg)
I prepared this sample by spraying onto a white piece of photo paper. Very smooth surface flat/dull finish. Yielded great results and could be applied to any flat surface to make a great DIY matte white screen.

6. Vutec – Vu Flex Pro ~1.1 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/6.jpg)
This material is very thick solid commercial theater material. It’s vinyl and is 3 times thicker than standard home use matte white vinyl. You could make gigantic screens out of this material as it is very robust and probably way beyond home theater needs. Same visual properties as all the other matte whites.

7. Draper – 1300 / Vutec Brite White 1.3 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/7.jpg)
This vinyl/pvc material needs tensioning. It is very white. With the surface sheen created from the manufacturing process it brings the gain up to 1.3. It also does not suffer from any hot spotting. Excellent viewing angle with virtually no noticeable drop-off. This material is actually light transmissive so you can see the image on the backside. This allows the material to illuminate and may help in the light diffusion process.

8. Da-Lite - Cinema Vision 1.3 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/8.jpg)
The Cinema Vision product is white tensionable pvc/vinyl with an emulsion. The emulsion reduces the viewing angle but may add a feel of depth to the image. Needs tensioning.

9. Da-lite - High Contrast Cinema Vision 1.1 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/9.jpg)
The High Contrast Cinema Vision is very similar to the standard Cinema Vision only slightly darker. The slightly darker emulsion reduces the viewing angle but may add depth and slightly more contrast. Pvc/vinyl that needs tensioning.

10. Stewart - Firehawk 1.35 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/10.jpg)
The Stewart Firehawk is a grey pvc/vinyl material that needs tensioning. The grey material is slightly darker than the Vutec Greydove/Draper HiDef Grey and it has a reflective emulsion carefully and lightly splattered on. The grey material is designed to give you good blacks and the reflective emulsion brings the gain up to 1.35. This, of course, reduces the viewing angle.

11. Stewart – Retro Grey ~1.5 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/11.jpg)
Unofficially known as the Pinkhawk. Stewart still has the “experimental” tag on this product and may be included in their future lineup. Screen surface is a solid vinyl with a pinkish/grey-colored retro-reflective emulsion.

12. Liquiscreen ~1.5 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/12.jpg)
This product is a paintable product and can be applied to almost anything depending on your skill level. The samples that were sent to me were all applied with a standard 2’’ nap roller to drywall, foam board and blackout cloth. The cloth sample yielded a slightly courser surface resulting in even better performance. The product contains two parts. A white base coat and a pearlescent top coat. Combined they offer great color accuracy, moderate gain, and a good viewing angle. A perfectly smooth surface like the foam board may result in hot spotting.

13. Draper – F1500 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/13.jpg)
This material is silvery looking on a very textured surface. It does have a slight pearlescent look to it, so there may be an additional coating. The backing is standard vinyl. Unfortunately, due to the very small sample size, I will not be able to review it.

14. Vutec – Soundscreen 5 .85 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/14.jpg)
This is a woven material probably used for commercial applications where the speakers must be behind the screen. It has grey and white strands for that slightly grey screen look. It would probably be great for outdoor applications too. I wouldn’t recommend for home theater, as the viewing distances are probably too close to the screen itself.

15. Vutec – Soundscreen 10 .85 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/15.jpg)
This is a woven material, probably used for commercial applications where the speakers must be behind the screen. It has all white strands. It would probably be great for outdoor applications also. I wouldn’t recommend for home theater as the viewing distances are probably too close to the screen itself. Vutec also carries a few more soundscreen products.

16. Vutec perforated. (black or white for leader) (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/16.jpg)
Curious what perforation looks like? Well here’s a sample of Vutec's perforation on their “leader” material. The white or black side of this vinyl could be used allowing sound to pass through.

17. Da-Lite - High Power 2.8 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/17.jpg)
The Da-Lite High Power has a fascinating emulsion. It’s slightly off-white and kind of reminds you of some kind of glow in the dark paint. It’s retro-reflective and is solidly applied to a vinyl backing. Great color reproduction, higher gain and a reasonable viewing angle for such high gain.

18. Da-Lite - Glass Bead 2.5 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/18.jpg)
Construction is retro-reflective emulsion on a heavy vinyl backing. Screen surface is white/crushed glass in color and high texture. The glass emulsion likes to fall off when the screen is manipulated. Pretty poor viewing cone. Cleaning this screen would be difficult at best.

19. Stewart – Ultramatte 2.75 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/19.jpg)
Construction is angular reflective emulsion on a pvc/vinyl backing. Screen surface is white/pearlescent in color and low texture. Material should be tensioned. The pearlescent emulsion is pretty good and has some unique properties. Generally a good viewing angle for 2.75 gain.

20. Draper – 2500 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/20.jpg)
This product is a whitish pvc vinyl that has a pearlescent coloration that looks like it may be built into the surface of the material, more likely a coating though. This material is very similar to Vutec’s Pearl Brite except the sample they sent me had more texture on the surface. This material needs tensioning. Overall good properties and viewing angle.

21. Vutec – Pearl Bright 3.1 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/21.jpg)
This product is a whitish pvc vinyl that has a pearlescent coloration that looks like it may be built into the surface or material itself. Surface texture is smooth and has a slight sheen. This material needs tensioning. Overall pretty good properties and viewing angle.

22. Vutec – Matte Pearl 2.7 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/22.jpg)
This product is a whitish vinyl with a pearlescent coating. There is surface texture from the vinyl backing. I was not able to review this product due to the small sample size. It would probably provide an excellent alternative to their tensioned Pearl Bright.

23. Vutec – Silver Star 6.0 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/23.jpg)
This material is some kind of silvery angular reflective paper laminated onto solid thick foam board. Screen surface is silver in color and somewhat smooth. Very bright, could work for HT. Super vibrant colors and over the top whites. The Silver Star somehow has better viewing cones than the other high-powers. I'd estimate this screen is more like ~4 gain. Also, I cannot determine if it suffers from hot spotting with my small sample.

24. Vutec – Grey Dove / Draper Hi Def Grey .95 (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/24.jpg)
This vinyl/pvc material needs tensioning. It is light grey. With the surface sheen created from the manufacturing process it still only registers .95 gain. Excellent viewing angle with virtually no noticeable drop-off. This material can give you good blacks.

25. Goo – Digital Grey (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/25.jpg)
This paint on product came to me applied to a piece of flexible white vinyl. The surface texture would lead me to believe it was applied with a roller and the color of this emulsion has a slight purple tint to it compared to the other greys I’ve looked at. Excellent viewing angle and blacks. I’d guess probably ~.9 gain.

26. Rust-oleum – High Heat “Silver” (spray paint) (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/26.jpg)
Yes, here’s your DIY “Firehawk”. If painted on with care and evenness, a flat surface can be transformed into a surface that can be comparable to the Firehawk. Although different properties, it produces somewhat similar results. This sample is sprayed onto a piece of photo paper. Decent colors, whites, blacks, and viewing cone. I'd estimate this screen is around 2 gain. Also, I cannot determine if it suffers from hot spotting with my small sample. A more textured backing material will reduce gain and possibly any hot spotting.

27. Rust-oleum – Metallic Finish “Aluminum” (spray paint) (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/27.jpg)
Okay kids here’s your DIY “silver star”. If painted on with care and evenness, a flat surface can be transformed into a surface that can be comparable to the Silver Star. This sample is sprayed onto a piece of photo paper. Very bright, could work for HT. Excellent colors and over the top whites. Decent viewing cone. I'd estimate this screen as having more gain than Silver Star. Also, I cannot determine if it suffers from hot spotting with my small sample. A more textured backing material will reduce gain and possibly any hot spotting. For more info refer to The Shootout.

28. Rust-oleum – Winter Grey Gloss (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/28.jpg)
This DIY paint came directly off my shelves in my garage. It can only be described as junk. Don’t waste your time with it. The colors and whites suck. The gain is about .7 and the glossy surface finish results in hotspots beyond belief.

29. Vutec - Rear–Vu / Draper – Cineflex 2.5 (rear projection) (http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/29.jpg)
Finally, I offer you this sample of Rear-Vu / Cineflex. They look identical to me. This is a Rear Projection screen material made from pvc/vinyl that looks like velum. It requires tensioning. The picture is a sample placed over print in a magazine so you can see its trasmissiveness. I have not been able to see this product in action, as I only have a small sample.



Types of Screens There are basically three types of flat screens.

Tensioned, Non-Tensioned and Solid fixed screens.
Tensioning refers to how flexible the material is. A tensioned screen material needs to be tensioned to remove the wrinkles. Non-tensioned material is usually more robust and will hold it own shape more easily.

Generally if you’re getting a manufactured screen, pull down models will usually be made with non-tensionable vinyls. If it’s an electric screen and doesn’t require a human pulling it down and up, down and up, tensionable material can be used without damage. Non-tensioned screen material is generally totally opaque. Some tensionable material does transmit light through it so it may require rear lighting treatment or surrounding blackout cloth. For fixed screens (non movable), tensioned material provides an easy way to eliminate wrinkles, and of course, a solid fixed screen has no wrinkles at all.



Properties of reflection. There are generally two types.

Retro-reflective This is like a stop sign and other traffic related reflecting devices. The light is reflected back toward the source.

Angular reflective This is like a billiard table. The light is reflected along the trajectory of the reflection much like the billiard ball.

Both retro-reflective and angular reflective try to diffuse the light as best they can to reduce hot spotting. A third property which is exhibited in standard white vinyl/pvc tensionable screen material is illumination. This happens when light is able to penetrate the surface of the material and possibly enhance the diffusion process. Although the screen I’m talking about is still angular in nature, it diffuses the light so well that it may allow no clear direction or change in gain to be noticeable from any angle. More later…

What’s Gain? Gain is the amount of light that is reflected back from the screen surface. A standard of 1 gain is measured with a photometer as light is reflected off a piece of magnesium carbonate (chalk). As the gain goes up, more light is reflected. As you reflect light you are not creating light, just reflecting it. So, as the gain goes up all you are really doing is reflecting more of the light directionally back toward the viewer. Since you cannot cheat the physics, the more light you send back toward the viewer the less gets reflected off to the side, thus a smaller viewing cone.


On To the Viewing Cones!

My Home Theater for testing
The projector being used in the test is a JVC G1000 (D-ila), producing approximately 600 true lumens right now. It is "ceiling mounted" and aligned with the top of the screen. Projector is 26' from screen. Screen is 10' wide 16:9 aspect ratio.

Background screen is the Stewart Firehawk 1.35 gain. Below are most of the samples I’ll be testing. This picture is just a white screen projected at all the products in high ambient light conditions. For further reference of the level of ambient lighting I’ll be testing under please look at the “High Light Florescent Lighting” pictures in my High Gain/Exotic Screen Review http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=228371


http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/reviewscreens.jpg

The viewing cone section will be split into two pieces. Mostly because it’s pointless to compare some of the higher gain screens to the matte white screens, and also there’s only so much ANSI checkerboard that shows both black and white.
I have chosen to only use very high ambient lighting to demonstrate these products. What does the high ambient light do? It allows these products to really show their light sensitivity on axis and off. This is just one way to get an idea of what the products do and their subtleties.

I will present strips with 5 pictures from 0 to 40 degrees off axis. Keep in mind, as we go off axis the products that are on the right side of each shot are the ones center-aligned with the projected image. In the Low Gain pictures it will be the Matte Whites. For the Higher Gain pictures it will be the higher gain screens. These will be the products that are exactly center aligned and the most accurate representation of the degrees off axis. Now, I have also included the other samples approximately 2 feet off to the left. As we move off axis to the left with the pictures, the retro-reflective products should suffer and the angular reflective samples should benefit.

I apologize if some of the samples look wrinkly. I have done my best to tension the materials that need tensioning but duct tape will only hold so long. Finally, since this is just an examination of these products light efficiency I will leave coloration comments and my impressions to later.


Lower Gain ANSI and Colors

http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/lowANSIangles.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/lowcolorangles.jpg


Higher Gain ANSI and Colors

http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/highANSIangles.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/highcolorangles.jpg

I’m not going to say much about these luminance sensitivity pictures. They should speak for themselves. If you want to compare light sensitivity levels beyond what you see with your own eyes, I recommend copying these pictures into Photoshop or some other software that has the ability to evaluate different intensity levels with more accuracy.

I have added the color pictures only as a supplement. I realize it does not address all three primaries or the millions of combinations.


My Observations over the week of testing…

It is very difficult to basically impossible to fully evaluate what the resulting picture is going to look like from just a sample. Some samples that look sketchy likely will take on a whole new dimension in a full screen. The Stewart Firehawk is a perfect example of this. A sample of this just cannot totally tell you what the end result on a full screen will yield. Also, over time you start to observe new things as you throw more and more tests at each material. To that end I will try to give you my observations of each material for reference only.


Lower Gain Products (Whites and Greys)

1. Dazian – Matte non-perforated White .95
Comparable to the best white screens from 1.0 to 1.3 gain. This tensionable pvc/vinyl material allows you to choose the lower gain textured side or the higher gain sheen side. The sheen side can hotspot unless treated. This can be compared to the Draper 1300, Vutec Bright white etc. Excellent value for the DIYer!

5. Americas Finest - Flat White (spray paint)
Even better value if you have a fixed surface to spray it on. Of course it yields the same results as any other flat white etc. House paint may be easier to apply or work with but will require closer attention to surface finish.

2. EZtheater - Comparable to Draper Cineflex
This product is an excellent matte white performer. Cheap and easy. You could replace your pull down screen material with this if it has flaws. I would probably use a tensionable screen material for fixed installations. However, this stuff was good.

3. Da-Lite - Da Mat 1.0
Can you say standard white tensionable pvc/vinyl material? If that's what you’re looking for you will not go wrong with this stuff. It doesn’t get any more standard or unity gain. Light penetrates this product for the illumination effect like all the white uncoated pvc materials.

7d. Draper – 1300
I love this stuff! Extra white pvc/vinyl tensionable material with no surface texture. Basically the same stuff that’s been in my own HT for years. The light penetrates this material allowing the illumination effect I talked about earlier. This diffuses and blends the light wonderfully hiding many source material artifacts and provides spot on linear color accuracy and whites. Plus it gives you 1.3 gain with basically an unlimited viewing cone.

7v. Vutec Brite White
See above. Same stuff as the Draper 1300

6. Vutec – Vu Flex Pro
Great stuff. However, way to robust for home theater use. This is generally for commercial screens. Might be good stuff if you have wild pets or crazy children. The stuff looks indestructible.

28. Rust-oleum – Winter Grey Gloss
DIYers, don’t waste you time with this stuff. I found a can of this in my garage and it has no redeeming qualities for screens. Bad whites, color, and severe hot spotting.

26. Rust-oleum – High Heat “Silver” (spray paint)
Fun stuff. Firehawk killer? Well not quite, but does offer some of the same properties. Not quite as much punch as the Firehawk but still good. I think a DIYer could find a combination that really pleases them. The untrained eye will probably not see a difference and for under $4 a can, it’s good stuff. I recommend applying to a smooth surface.

24. Vutec – Grey Dove / Draper Hi Def Grey
This stuff is probably best if you have a projector with good horsepower. It does deepen the blacks and gives an excellent viewing cone. To the discriminating eye, you may feel you are getting dull whites and colors.

25. Goo – Digital Grey
You can paint this stuff on, but again it is probably best if you have a projector with good horsepower. It does deepen the blacks and gives an excellent viewing cone. To the discriminating eye, you may feel you are getting dull whites and colors.

4. Behr – 50/50 Pearlescent/Silver Stag (house paint)
I’d say don’t waste your time mixing these two colors. Just go with white.


Some Higher Gain and Highbrid Products

12. Liquiscreen ~1.5
Incredible product. Superb color and white reproduction, moderate gain and wide viewing cone. Dollar for Dollar (excluding your labor etc) it’s a superb value.

8. Da-Lite - Cinema Vision 1.3
Good product. Is the emulsion necessary? Only if it enhances depth of image. I really couldn’t evaluate this with the small sample. Since it’s “Imaging Science Foundation Certified,” I’d say it’s probably a winner. It does seem slightly brighter than the matte whites.

9. Da-lite - High Contrast Cinema Vision 1.1
Yes, this is like a slightly darker Cinema Vision, thus slightly darker blacks. Better viewing cone than the Firehawk but not quite as much punch.

11. Stewart – Retro Grey ~1.5
I love this stuff. I prefer it over the Firehawk for on-axis viewing. Accurate colors and whites. Unfortunately, as you move off-axis things start to turn a little rosy (reddish).

27. Rust-oleum – Metallic Finish “Aluminum” (spray paint) 7+
Hey this stuff is cool. I experimented on three surfaces. Foam board offered super high gain and decent viewing cone. But, likely would hotspot on a full screen. The trick may be to find the right paper, board, or fabric to apply it to with a nice even coat. I highly recommend DIYers experiment with this one! I’ll be experimenting with this one myself.

19. Stewart – Ultramatte 2.75
Excellent gain from this pearlescent surface with a great viewing cone. I’d bet those looking for a higher gain angular reflective surface would be happy with this screen

20. Draper – 2500
I’ve heard countless reports of how happy customers are with this product. Pearlescent surface produces a slightly softer gain and image than the Ultramatte.

21. Vutec – Pearl Bright 3.1
So similar to the Draper 2500 it’s scary. Great image, high gain, tensionable. I’d like to give a full screen of this stuff a try. I’d say it’s closer to 2.5 gain.

17. Da-Lite - High Power 2.8
I love this stuff. Super bright, colorful and a superb retro-reflective emulsion.

23. Vutec – Silver Star 6.0
Wow, my curiosity is killing me with this product. Super high gain yet excellent viewing cone and diffusion. This laminated paper on foam board must come out of the photo industry or something for reflecting light in studios/sets. I’m dying to see a full screen!


10. Stewart Firehawk
Hey what can I say, it’s a great product. I’ve had the privilege to examine a full screen and really this is the only way you can fully evaluate the total package. This product deepens the blacks and boosts the whites. I have fallen in love with the linearity and color accuracy of my white pvc/vinyl screen so it has taken me some time to get used to the differences with the grey colored Firehawk. Viewing on the Firehawk is a little like having an equalizer on your stereo and pushing up the bass and the treble a bit. If you’re a purist this may bother you. The reflective splatter can boost coloration flaws and source material artifacts like compression. However, if you’re not totally anal you're probably going to love it. Non-video freaks will undoubtedly love this screen!

The Firehawk screen sheds ambient light better than any product under 2.0 gain that I’ve seen, but best results are definitely obtained by watching on-axis. Yes, you have a fair amount of leeway from side to side without noticing the drop-off and viewing cone. This should be fine for most home theater environments. I actually think this product performs its best with a little ambient light. In total darkness, black tends to lose shadow detail and whites tend to look crushed to me. If you like a little to a lot of ambient light in your viewing environment, the Stewart Firehawk is an incredible performer and a solid product.




And now… “Operation DIY”

This is a fun way to learn about the properties that make up a good screen and in turn experiment with cheap alternatives to what the big boys have to offer. What you say? They don’t want people making their own screens… Not! They know the bargain enthusiasts of today will be their customers tomorrow. With that said, I offer you three tips in the DIY Screen department.

1. Want simple? Choose white.
To keep it simple, stick with standard white. A flat surface and a flat white paint can yield a picture equal to the “finest” matte white screens in the industry. Smoother surfaces will yield the highest gain (~1) and more textured surfaces will reduce this. I highly recommend masking the non-screen portion with anything black. Paint, Cloth, etc.

2. Going Grey.
If you are confident that the deepest blacks are your primary objective you should try grey. Color matching may not be that important, as I’ve seen a spectrum of greys from the manufacturers with little or no visual difference. Get a sample if necessary. Again, flat/eggshell, and possibly satin may be all the surface finish you’ll want. Any sheen like a gloss will definitely hotspot.

3. Thinking Silver?
Very interesting stuff. The movie industry started out with silver for a reason… low light projectors. Very similar to what many HTs experience. You can boost the gain through silver (as high as ~10 gain!). Unlike greys, colors and whites are vibrant and almost leap off the screen. However, silver obviously has the highest probability for hot spotting. The flatter the surface the higher the gain and more potential to hotspot. By experimenting with silver brightness, and with surface texture, you can come up with some amazing results. You can bet some manufacturers will be headed this way in the coming years.



Finally, The SHOWDOWN

Yes, it’s the Davids vs. Goliath. The Stewart Firehawk has become the sweetheart of the home theater industry practically over night. It’s no surprise the Stewart Filmscreen team came up with this great screen combination that essentially kills three birds with one stone. The backing is a grey screen offering the deepest of blacks. The reflective coating offers the punch of 1.35 gain. And lastly it offers the excellent rejection of ambient light. But!… all of this has to come at a price. The price… the dreaded viewing cone.

Now lets meet the competition. We have two DIY spray products and Digital Grey Goo out of Canada ready to take on the awesome Stewart Firehawk.

On your left is the infamous #27 Rust-oleum – Metallic Finish “Aluminum” (spray paint). This paint has been described as “the $3.79 Silver Star in a can”. It was sprayed onto 3 different surfaces in haste with only one coat. Far left, we have the Metallic Finish “Aluminum” applied to standard construction paper so you may notice a significant weakness in gain due to the surface texture and abnormalities. Then in lane two, we have the panel split into two sections. On the bottom we have the MFA applied to standard white foam board. On the top, MFA nicely coats a piece of white 6 oz Dacron fabric.

Third from the left, please give it up for #26 Rust-oleum – High Heat “Silver” otherwise know as the “Firehawk Killer” or HHS. This fast drying and easy to apply paint was sprayed onto standard white foam board and comes in at only $3.59 a can.

Finally from the North Woods (who said the Canadians aren’t willing to rumble), on the right side of the screen I bring you “Digital Grey” GOO.

The contest between these contestants today will feature the harshest of conditions. Conditions that standard white screens make look like child’s play… Flesh Tones and Whites. Finally we will separate the men from the boys in this silver and grey world with the dreaded viewing cone and the examination of the ever popular blacks.

Now, “Let’s get ready to rumble….“

http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/shootoutangles.jpg


What did I see?

1. The Aluminum paint has way better coloration and whites than the grey screens. Applied consistently to the right surface it will kill all the other products in the shootout.

2. The Silver paint doesn’t have quite the contrast of the Firehawk but pretty close. Better viewing angle and coloration. Should be applied to a smooth surface for comparable performance.

3. Firehawk just had more punch and brightness than the Digital Grey Goo.

Did any of these products take down the Firehawk? I’m going to Home Depot to get more of this Aluminum spray paint tomorrow. Have fun.


Conclusions

Looking at products from different manufacturers can at times be a little crazy. Most business models are set up to display their goods through representatives. Even though some representative are good at telling you all the facts, there are certainly some reps that can’t possibly make a perfect connection between best product for your set up and your circumstances. It is up to you to understand what a product does and it’s limitations.

I hope this review has shed some light on some products that are available to you in your quest for video perfection and a top notch Home Theater.




Many Thanks to All that made this review possible!

Don Stewart of Stewart Filmscreen for the Firehawk background screen
pajohn for the Dazian samples
prof55 for the Liquiscreen samples
KBK for the Goo sample
odskaggs2 for the Eztheater samples
DarkSmileyX for the Behr pearlescent/silver stag sample

For further information on these products you can contact:

Da-Lite Screen Company (IN): www.da-lite.com (574) 267-8101
Draper, Inc. (IN): www.draperinc.com (800) 580-1560
Stewart Filmscreen Corp. (CA): www.stewartfilm.com (310) 784-5300
Vutec Corp (FL): www.vutec.com (954) 545-9000
GOO www.goosystems.com
Liquiscreen www.liquiscreen.com
EZtheater www.eztheater.com

Tryg:

I have a couple of questions:

1. In one of our last discussions about screens, you suggested that even the Fedex man had a strong preference for white screens. Did you get the Fedex mans opinion this time and what was his favorite screen?

2. I’ve heard that you’re an ass man and I’m concerned that the female model to the far left may have unconsciously influenced your selections. Can you tell us what you did during the review process to make sure ass didn’t unduly affect your screen ratings?

Great stuff Tryg.... I can't wait to see what happens when you get a full screen based on the spray paint.

The Silverstar seems to still be some kind of miracle.

"What we have here, class, are some fertile examples of the post-pubescent female anatomy."

good work, good girls

what surfaces would you recommend trying the mettalic paint on?

Goddamn it, I've done a search and I can't find "Rust-oleum – Metallic Finish Aluminum” in Australia. Bugger Bugger Bugger. I wonder if any aluminium spray paint will do. It's cheap enough though, so who cares.

Just finished making and painting a light grey screen last weekend. I'll make another one with aluminium spray paint as soon as I can. Won't be for a few weeks though.

It might be good for whites and fleshtones, but I wonder how good it will be with blacks and shadow detail. Will those dark black space scenes look grey?????

Hehehe. The Goo ain't cured yet. (about two weeks old) It is close, though. Add the fact that application and surface texture are in the hands of the end user... and therefore gain and viewing cone are in the hands of the end user. Results will vary! It was never meant to compete with the Firehawk. It stands on it's own.

Thanks for the fun review! The CRT sample is still coming your way for a follow up, and.. maybe a sprayed sample of each. Only problem being...Results will vary!

PS: When all things are a matter of perception..then the screen in the background becomes the predominating factor. If it was another screen there..then the observations of the colorshifting of one vs another would be different. For instance, one of the predominant screens...has a noticeable shift of it's own.

"A sample of this just cannot totally tell you what the end result on a full screen will yield. Also, over time you start to observe new things as you throw more and more tests at each material. To that end I will try to give you my observations of each material for reference only. "

True enough Tryg. This is why I tried to make sure the sample I sent you was big enough to get a 'feel' for the product. It was 20"x52", if I recall correctly.

Once again, thanks for the fun.


FYI: Evan Powell of ProjectorCentral has requested a few containers of Goo, and will be having some fun.........

Tryg, EXCELLENT review........ Congrats!

I'm interested to know which has the better/deeper blacks of the two spray paints.....aluminum or silver?

Do both of these paints provide better blacks than the 'white' screens, or are the blacker blacks the domain of the Firehawk, and HCCV?

Would you say either of the spray paints are comparable or even better than the HCCV?

Once again, many thanks! You've outdone yourself. I can see this as the start of another very long thread!:D

Cheers,
Simon

NewsFlash: Home Depot reports sudden unexplainable world shortage of spray paint!

Originally posted by ChaCha
NewsFlash: Home Depot reports sudden unexplainable world shortage of spray paint!

:D That's why I choose Rust-oleum which can probably be found in every hardware store in America. I'm sure other Metallish Finish "Aluminums" will yield similar results. It is actually much harder to apply than the High Heat Silver because of the crappy rattle can and the long drying time etc.

For the professional painter I would recommend going to an auto paint supplier with a sample and try to match. Using a real spray gun should yield superior results.

Which is darker?
Look at the "0 angle" panels. Now, compare #1's blacks to the background screen, then #27's blacks to the background screen. You'll notice, you actually acheive higher contrast on axis with the #27, because as you move off axis you are just reflecting more ambient light and less projected light.

For best results, maybe use of a primer so that the Aluminum doesn't just soak into the surface(but then again this may be good)
A light texture to the surface might help deliver a more even and consistent picture. You will lose gain but you have plenty to spare.

You guys should be telling me what's best. Try MDF or laminant or something.

I hope some more manufacturers will start trying to develop similar products. Silver can yield awesome results. The vast majority of people still just want to buy a pre made screen, so if they can deliver, then they score.

Hey Tryg, is QQQ your twin? Your pictures look awfully similar. Or is he your body double, (like Sadam Hussein has)?

Well it looks like I'll be painting over my Pearlescence\Silver Stag screen in the very near future, Thanks Tryg!

How do you think Liquiscreen compares to the spray cans? For $80 it seems like a good choice unless I'm seeing something (or not seeing it correctly).

I'm still waiting for my Liquiscreen sample to arrive.

Thanks for the great review and effort you put into this.

Rob

my question is far simpler... WHAT WAS THE SOURCE FOR THE LAST PICTURE? I want to see it without all the AVScience labels in place. Preferably the whole video

Originally posted by Tryg
1. The Aluminum paint has way better coloration and whites than the grey screens. Applied consistently to the right surface it will kill all the other products in the shootout.

2. The Silver paint doesn’t have quite the contrast of the Firehawk but pretty close. Better viewing angle and coloration. Should be applied to a smooth surface for comparable performance.

3. Firehawk just had more punch and brightness than the Digital Grey Goo.

Did any of these products take down the Firehawk? I’m going to Home Depot to get more of this Aluminum spray paint tomorrow. Have fun.
I want to make sure I'm not misinterpreting you. Are you are saying that a can of aluminum Rust-oleum paint (when applied consistently) kills the Firehawk?

Thanks for the review Tryg.

I'm also in the "ceiling mounted Dila" camp and would be interested in seeing comparison pics of the Digital Grey and the Firehawk without the silver paints muddying the water. I have a digital grey Goo screen and have been quite happy, except for some imperfections in my paint application. But, I have always been curious about what a Firehawk would do for me vs. the Goo.

I did notice from your pics that the firehawk brightness drops considerably faster then the Goo when moving off axis.

Am also interested in a comparison between the Liquiscreen and the higher gain Goo when it arrives.


Again, thanks for your time and effort.

-jp

1. The Aluminum paint has way better coloration and whites than the grey screens. Applied consistently to the right surface it will kill all the other products in the shootout.


Applied consistently is the gotcha. When I experimented with silver paint, any non-uniformity became painfully obvious. The screen has also got to be flat,flat,flat and of course, it hotspots easily.

Still it works pretty darned good in high ambient. I had a DIY aluminum-paint based screen for about 1 year a few years back. I tried to paint it, Rustoleum would have worked better.

Tryg,
How can these findings be re-interpreted for us CRT owners?
Would the same best of breed prevail with the difference in equipment?

Look like Goo is, unfortunately, just that.

It seems to me like the Rustoleum #27 Aluminum is going to have hotspotting trouble. Looking at the sample you sprayed on foam board, it seems to already be showing signs of hotspotting. also is it just me or does the #27 look a little "uneven"... especially on the dracon cloth... or is it because the cloth itself has ripples in it? still, i think it's totally worth a closer look with larger samples of the #27 aluminum and the #26 high heat silver... in fact i think #26 has a good run at being the champ due to the high viewing angle and from the looks of it it's doing better than the firehawk in the background! i anxiously await your further diy experiments!

QQQ,

Killed Firehawk? It depends on your defininition of killed and what you personally value more.

Silver emulsion delivers more vibrant accurate colors and whites than grey screens, but they also tend to be higher gain. Properly applied, I think many would find a silver emulsion very satisfying and preferable to the Firehawk. Properly applied is the trick! I suspect some who experiment first, then pays close attention to application will find a stunning combination. As for the Firehawk, The fact that we are even comparing everything to the Firehawk is a testament to the fact that it is a very solid product that captures the interests of what more and more people are trying to achieve in thier home. The consistent fit, finish and delivery of all Stewart products is also a testiment to the fact that they are professionals. The Firehawk is just one product that they can consistanly duplicate and deliver to satisfied customers. DIY results with Aluminum paint will obviously vary greatly.

jpschmoe and rlloyd,
Hey, Liquiscreen is a fabulous product. If you don't want to do any experimenting and want a solid performing screen in the 1.5 gain neighborhood this may be a product for you! I didn't get a chance to apply it but the results from the samples I tested were extremely satisfying. Vibrant, accurate, and a good viewing cone.

Ken,
Yes, the Aluminum spray paint is very hard to apply from a spray can. Patience and thin coats may be the key to consistentency. Also you need to build a drip catcher on the can or cuff the tip with a rag. It likes to drip! Experiment First! before you try at a final product!
This stuff takes 4-5 times longer to dry as standard spray paint.

Dizzman,
I have to know your email to give out the XXX original.

Doktor_Ssyko,
I wish I could talk intelligently about CRT, but I dont, and have never had one. I know some people achieve superb results with Vutec's 13.2 gain curved silver based screens.
I would imagine any surface sheen would result in color shift with any of these products.


What's the perfect screen? Matte White!

All other screens are gimmicks so to speak. It's really up to you to decide if the results achieved by anything other than matte white is satisfactory and worth the drawbacks that may come with it. With a little experimentation it's easy to decide what is important to you and what is not.

I dumped my aluminum paint screen for a fabric screen that I subsequently dumped for a Firehawk.

If you really like silver screens, try the Stewart Silver 3D (http://www.stewartfilm.com/engineering_specifications/3d.html) .

It has nice texture, but you have to mount it flat. Stewart developed it for 3D viewing. It maintains some polarization for use with 3D glasses

Have you completed your Rust-oleum screen and will you be posting pictures?

What I've noted in all the screen sample shootouts is that no one re-calibrates the projector for the individual screen types. I realize that it would cause a significant increase in time to perform the shootout, but a screen with different white/black/color/tint calibration parameters will simply not look good, projected onto with a projector calibrated for another screen type.

When all samples are viewed simultaneously, people will perceive the sample that "stands out" as the best-of-the-best, simply because it's noticeable different. When calibrated/optimized for each unique sample -- then we're comparing apples-to-apples (hey, I'm a Mac person :) )

Tryg:

Not to burst your bubble, you put a lot of hard work into shootouts I & II, and your findings are greatly appreciated. Keep up the good work!

I talked to KBK about the 50% Digital Grey and he said it'd be available for sale next week.


-Christian Williams

Let's hear it for matte white screens.
Available at an Eztheater.com near you.
I'm not only the president of eztheater but also a client.Oh wait that's for my hair never mind. Tryg great job!!!
Keep up the good work.

mister tryg over the years i have use a vutec curved screen 13.5 gain 10 feet diagonal,that screen has allowed me to lower crt voltages to produce an incredible focus. the projector is a panasonic pt2010,all glass lens 700 lumens,electromagnetic focus and digital point convergence;over the years i made somes scratch so i am thinking to paint it over with either flat white
to remove hot spot on the left or that metallic aluminium finish.what kind of gain would i get from the white.the screen make corner focus unbelieavable

Originally posted by TRYG
Did any of these products take down the Firehawk? I’m going to Home Depot to get more of this Aluminum spray paint tomorrow.

I am sure Don Stewart is quivering in his boots.

This part of the testing I have to see.

Tryg,

Great review where do you find time to do this? What about Studiotek130 by Stewart, I did not see it in your review? I thought this material was the most natural with colors and ISF certified

Ross

I'll throw in a 1) thanks!!! and 2) more questions for the hopper

1) which produced the best (darkest) blacks, NO qualifications (price, etc...)

2) care to give a 1-10 on the firehawk and the high power and liquiscreen? Price no object...(I will factor THAT in! :cool: )

Tryg,
I really enjoyed reading your review. Thanks for your efforts!

I'm shooting for a 120" diagonal 16:9 screen on my Panny 300 in a completely light-controlled room. Right now, I'm considering the matte white and the Da-lite HCCV. Two questions for you -- (1) do you have a preference of matte white material (EZTheater.com vs. Dazian)? and (2) Do you think the HCCV material would be better than the matte white or other DIY materials?

Best regards,
Chad in Austin

QQQ, I just did

thebland, Why would Don shake in his boots?

veid 5194 approximately 1 gain

krell69 Yes this took an considerable amount of my free time. I hope people can benefit from it. Also, I can only review what is sent to me.

Rob4x20 Winter Grey...but that's all it did. All three are great products and do very different things. They're all 10's for their own catagories.

Chad A, I think I would go with a matte white. I preferred the CV over the HCCV.

Tryg: which would you choose for a dlp projector: Highpower or a DIY paint (aluminum, or liquiscreen)? I have an X1. Thanks and great job! AVS should send you a free projector for your great work!

And everyone runs off into their separate corners with the piece of 'truth' that they personally believe to be some sort of "god's own". Not just screens, but in life, period.

Aluminum has a TERRIBLE color balance. This is why it is not used in screens that involve the idea of color balance. Soon as it is in some sort of emulsion, that shifted balance shifts even further. Some of the minor down sides. Long story.....Oh well. To each his own. Until the next truth comes along. Then add the fact that each particle has to be coated to prevent reactive situations from taking place, etc....then the fact that $3 cans of paint can't have much in the way of quality built into them.... hmmm....

I'm not trying to defend or denegrate any product. I'm merely looking at things with a bit less bias. Cheap can be good, but it ain't necessarily better. If it makes you feel good, go for it. have fun! Just remember the risks.

Why am I posting this? Just to be in the contrary position to help make sure this thread does not run into being a mutual 'yes man' kind of thread. Like I've mentioned before.. in the film '2001'..where the Monkeys go.. one after another... to beat onthe guy that is down.. with the stick.... in the mad rush of 'crowd following'. It may be 100k years later, but some things never change. I see it every day.

"Everybody, Everybody....calm down"... Henry Kissinger, in "The Pink Panther Strikes Again'

Well I just went out and made 1/2 size screens (one was"aluminium" the other "silver") to place against my matt finish light grey screen. The metallic finish screens were awful. Hotspotting and poor uniformity of finish (very blotchy). At first I didn't even see a difference in brightness until I stood up. You see my projector is on the coffee table, so with me sitting down, Iwas too off axis. I guess this is why the Firehawk should be used with ceiling mounted projectors. When I did stand up the image was way too bright, unnatural, and blotchy (due to my spray painting skill). I guess the metallic finish would be better served by a low lumen pj. My 1700 lumen pj (Mitsu XD200) is definitely too bright for such a high gain screen.
Damn, I thought I was going to be in heaven with my aluminium screen. I wonder if its worth repeating the experiment to try and get a more even finish to the screen.

Very interesting read; thanks for your efforts, Tryg!

I did a few experiments with aluminum/silver spraypaints (not the brands you tried, Plastikote in my case), and while the image really jumped off the screen they had severe color shifts. I remember Frodo's eyes turned bright green with one blend. So when the newness of it wears off, it may not be as terrific as it first seemed- then again, maybe you've found a version that doesn't suffer from these problems:)

Actually KBK, looking back at Tryg's photos, I think Goo looks quite good. It looks very similar to Firehawk on axis, but much better off axis. If Goo was easily available in AUstralia, I might give it a go. What puts me off is I'm no "handyman". Very poor skills with anything in the DIY department and seeing how badly I spray painted today, I don't think I'd be very good at applying Goo, given that others have had trouble in the past.

Actually KBK, looking back at Tryg's photos, I think Goo looks quite good. It looks very similar to Firehawk on axis, but much better off axis. If Goo was easily available in AUstralia, I might give it a go. What puts me off is I'm no "handyman". Very poor skills with anything in the DIY department and seeing how badly I spray painted today, I don't think I'd be very good at applying Goo, given that others have had trouble in the past.

Tryg,

Would a Dazian matte non-perforated white .95 screen mounted on a white wall need black backing?

Tom

KBK,
Conspiracy theorist? My DIY review isn't designed to be a definative solution to all problems. But if people go out and buy a $2 piece of white foam board and spray it with $4 worth of paint, let it dry, then put it up against their screen. Hmmm, they are gonna learn something for $6. Give it a try.

About color balance...

" Five basic inputs are needed to make a mirror: glass, a tin solution, a silver solution, a copper solution, and mirror backing paint. Most mirrors are made by placing clean pieces of glass flat on a conveyor belt, which moves the glass through the various stations where the solutions and paint are applied to the back of each piece of glass. The first layer applied to the glass is a tin solution, which is an adhesion promoter so that the silver will bond to the glass. After the tin solution, a silver solution is applied, which creates a metal film on the glass surface, giving the mirror its reflective surface. The third step is to apply a copper solution, which helps keep the silver from oxidizing and creates a surface to which the mirror backing paint will adhere. Finally, the mirror backing paint is applied. This adds a hard coating that protects the solutions from becoming scratched or damaged and further protects the silver solution from corrosion."

something to think about....


Tom Jones.
Backing? no. Look at my "preparing for a shootout" thread.
Backing only if theres a light source behind it.

My quote's better. So there!. All you get are the 'Bluehairs' throwing panties at you. :)

To be fair:
Check the spectral balance of the mirror quoted. First surface mirrors are better, but still not perfect. CR they do have though; which counts for alot. That's the charm side of the high reflectivity coatings. The high CR brings the impression of saturation, purely through perceptive conditionals. I'm toying with a 3500:1 (measured) CR DLP unit, and I tell you, the colors look dammed saturated, even though they are not really any better than any other unit. Itis purely due to perception because of the high CR. This is why many prefer the higher gain surfaces of some Screens.

I say: Start with a better projector.

Speaking of silver...

Here's a picture of the Draper F1500 material. It's very silvery looking. If anyone out there has this screen please tell us more about it and if you like it!

http://home.attbi.com/~tryghoff/13.jpg


Ken, I totally concur. I think many think you can cure your projector issues with a screen. You must start with a good projector!

What surface were the paints applied to for the DIY screens?

Arrgghh. Every time I think I've made up my mind I read a review and change my mind. First it was behr perlescent, then parkland plastic, then Goo, then dalite high power, then liquidscreen, then high heat silver, then goo, etc.

I'm told that Goo will be displayed at the Melbourne Home Entertainment SHow end of April, so all us Aussies will be able to see it. Heck, I'm in Brisbane and I'm going to fly down to check it out. The airfares and accommodation are going to make it an expensive DIY screen, but who cares, its all fun.

link to the show is http://www.homeentertainmentshow.com

Not to sound like a moron, but have been to the Rust-oleum site, and there are many aluminums available. Can you give us their part number?

cpc,
the smples were just sprayed onto a piece of photopaper I had laying around. The bigger samples in the shootout were white art foamboard. Both have a very smooth surface.

Christer W.,
Go to the hardware store. Metallic Finish "Aluminum". White can, Red writing. Maybe the part number is 7715. Try others too. Just because I pulled that can off the shelf doesn't make it the best.


Did anybody do any Experimenting over the weekend? Results?

Most of my samples were sprayed on somewhat unpenatrable white surfaces. Better results may be acheived using a primer first. I'm thinking mostly for a nice flat surface but even a house paint that get's backrolled with a texture inducing roller could make a surface similar to the F1500 above. Then apply the Aluminum.

Tryg,

Have you come across Harkness Hall???

I'm using their High Contrast Grey 0.8 on a side chain driven 8ft roller blind with the weight bar filled with 6-7 kg of lead shot.

http://www.harknesshall.com/ds/high_contrast_grey.pdf

tryg,

random request, if you have a blacklight around, can you see if the high power or firehawk are uv reactive?

thanks!

Rob

Rob, uv reactive? curious about that one. Are you installing a tanning bed in front of your projector?

I just thinkit'd be neat if the screen could glow when not in use. :cool: :cool:

I love blacklights

I think there is a diy screen factor that bears mentioning here: TEXTURE!

As KBK has mentioned in several posts, the final texture of a diy screen plays a very large part in the results. In my opinion, using a roller produces the most consistent results. Not necessarily the best results, merely the most consistent. When two people apply the same product with the same spray equipment, there is often a major difference in texture.

This is really a problem with silver products, since a silver screen is basically a matte finish mirror.

In short, color & texture play nearly equal roles in diy screens, and with most products, only color is easily controlled.

Just my two cents!

Garry

so has anyone tried the Rustoleum High Heat Silver or the Aluminum spray paint in more depth yet? the potential for an inconsistent texture worries me... I wonder if those paints are available in 1 gallon containers so you can roll it on?

I wouldn't worry about anything until you've tried it.

I know there are probably hundreds of sceptics out there. Those that see for themselves will reap the benefits of knowledge.

The Rustoleum is an oil based product isn't it? I wonder how it would do sprayed on the vinyl side of blackout cloth, whether the oil would react with the vinyl?

based on this review, i bought a few cans of the rustoleum aluminum, and sprayed it on some white laminate stuff i found at lowe's. The results were spectacular, BUT my painting technique leaves a lot to be desired. I'm going to end up scrapping that screen because I couldn't get a good continuous even layer. I think once i screwed up the first coat, it was all over :(

That aluminum paint makes for REALLY nice colors, whites, and blacks though. I wish i could have gotten a good clean coat on it the first time.

I used Tremclad high heat aluminum via spray can (it's the Canadian version of rustoleum). It was very hard to get an even texture and you can definitely see some variance across the screen. I just ordered my projector yesterday so I'll let you know how it looks. If the texture problems do degrade the image I'll be changing to the aluminum rust paint which is available in quart sized cans. I will then try rolling it. It apparently has slightly more sheen which may be a good or bad thing.

stipling from rolling will cut a lot of the sheen. I am convinced that texture is as important as the pigment. I just dont know what the right texture is but I do know that some texture is good. lol

For the spray can guys - I didnt spray my screen but know that can aerosol spraying requires some finesse. You need to keep the can pointed straight at target surface and move the can parallel to it as well. You should overlap each pass by at least 50%. Then turn the piece and repeat at 90 degrees to the first one. This makes it easier to get full coverage.

If you have a decent internet connection check this video out It tells you all about spraying. http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/wvt061.asp
The quicktime version was really bad but the Real version worked great.

The trick is buying the stuff in a can and applying to a consistent factory textured surface like a wallpaper etc. more later

Also I broke out my black light to do some testing but it burned out when I plugged it in. I'll get a new one.

Originally posted by Tryg
The trick is buying the stuff in a can and applying to a consistent factory textured surface like a wallpaper etc. more later

Also I broke out my black light to do some testing but it burned out when I plugged it in. I'll get a new one.


great to hear you're still working on the diy front, tryg. factory texture...nice.


and thanks for following up on the blacklight!

:cool:

~rob

I only have one question: Did you duct tape those samples to your Firehawk? That's what it looks like. Please tell me no.

Tryg,

"Which is darker?
Look at the "0 angle" panels. Now, compare #1's blacks to the background screen, then #27's blacks to the background screen. You'll notice, you actually acheive higher contrast on axis with the #27, because as you move off axis you are just reflecting more ambient light and less projected light. "

Could you please give more details on this black, CR area.
You mentioned "compare #1's blacks", where is the #1 in the pic?
How did the blacks/CR compare on #'s 26 and 27 to the Firehawk?

Thank you.

he duct taped all those sampls to his firehawk.

No, I duct taped them to pieces of cardboard. I hung the pieces of cardboard in front of the screen with coathangers.

Jim Story,
the #1 panel is the sample with the 1 next to it. Should be the Dazian sample.

I finally received my new Panny L300u, and am very impressed. I did my own screen with MDF painted with tremclad high heat aluminum paint. The colors and brightness from this paint were good. I will need to repaint it though, as I couldn't get a uniform coat. On pans and movement, you can notice the uneven texture. It shows up as a dirty film on the image.

I think I'll be sanding it down to a nice smooth finish then try applying the aluminum rust paint with a roller. It won't be for a month or 2 as I'm a little worn out from all these diy projects.

Tryg,

"the #1 panel is the sample with the 1 next to it. Should be the Dazian sample."

Then you were referring to the 1st set of pic's? Wasn't clear to me, sorry.

Are you gonna write any more (where/when) about blacks/CR vs all those tests?

Tryg,

"the #1 panel is the sample with the 1 next to it. Should be the Dazian sample."

Then you were referring to the 1st set of pic's? Wasn't clear to me, sorry.

Are you gonna write any more (where/when) about blacks/CR vs all those tests?

Is it just my computer monitor, or are ALL the DIY pictures (the ones with the girls...) under-exposed? Only the second screen sample from the left (the brightest) seems to have acceptable brightness. The girl on the far right is completely in shadow, even in the 0* angle shot. How can this be with the 1.35 gain Firehawk? Perhaps the camera was "tricked" by the extreme brightness of those high-gain panels?

Would you have any screenshots gobrigavitch?

In Ontario here and may try the same...........

Tryg,

Wow... Great job! Your the screen master!

You indicated that your projector was 600 true Lumens. Is that the same thing as ANSI Lumens?

Is a high gain screen material better in high ambient light conditions?

So now I'm on the fence between picking the Draper M1300 & M2500 material. I have an Infocus X1 projector which claims to be 1000 ANSI Lumens in presentation mode and half that in video mode. The room I am placing the projector in has a relatively high ambient light level. The projector will be ceiling mounted with 60"x80" screen. The room is a multipurpose so the screen will retract into the ceiling in front of the fireplace. The worst case viewing angle is 30 degrees.

Given these parameters which material would you recommend?

It seems to me that a high gain material would allow a lower brightness level and helpful in to extend bulb life. Your thoughts?

Thanks
norm

I don't have any screenshots yet, but hope to soon. Do a search for Neil Joseph. He used the same paint and has pictures posted on his website. He actually ended up with a nice smooth even finish, wheras mine will need to be sanded and repainted. The thread where this paint was discussed is "DIY screen paint material".

DLP_Rocks,

I'd go with the M2500. They are both exceptional products. I would recommend the M1300 if you had wide viewing angle or didn't need any gain. But since you're limited to 30 degrees I'd go for the punch of higher gain. You'll love it!

I'm impressed with Draper in they keep things simple. A simple line up with solid products in all catagories. Maybe they could learn to market themselves better. Maybe they don't have to!

Just remember all the products I've looked at are good. Likely no one would be unhappy with any of them. The only thing I personally would ever shy away from is a gray screen with negative gain. However it's all relative. If I had a 5000 lumen projector I might think differently ;). I like white screens, a little gain, accurate colors, linear gray scale reproduction, no gimmicks and and enjoying the show.

Enjoy the show!

Did anybody else think the DIY pictures seemed under-exposed? That Firehawk background sure looks unacceptably dark to me...

I have wide-angle needs (45* on one side), and was condering either the M1300 or the DIY Firehawk. From your pictures, it seemed like the DIY Firehawk actually has a much wider viewing cone than the real Firehawk. Is this true?

Do you think the "diffusion" (as you call it) of the M1300 material helps to combat screendoor? Wouldn't it tend to soften the picture?

Originally posted by DLP_Rocks
It seems to me that a high gain material would allow a lower brightness level and helpful in to extend bulb life

I doubt that this is true with the X1. I'd guess that the brightness control simply manipulates the duty-cycle of the micro-mirrors and has no effect on lamp brightness -- can someone confirm this? Some projectors *do* have a feature allowing the bulb output to be reduced (a bulb-saver mode), but the X1 isn't one of those.

Rob

oops sorry mrwizard.

Yes, the DIY section is slightly underexposed. This was to keep consistent and shoot from the same setting in all tests. Since I chose a manual setting on my camera that was best for the off axis shots I wanted to keep it consitent throughout the review for comparison. And No, you cant trick the camera if you use a manual setting. It shoots the same way every shot unlike an "auto" setting. This is described in the introduction.

All screens should diffuse the light. "Illumination" is what I was talking about and yes it does reduce screen door and I guess soften the picture. But only on a very small level. The softening seams to help the picture not hurt it. It ever so slightly blends the PIXEL EDGES and I really like this effect. It also does a superior job of minimizing/hiding source and compression artifacts.

I love uncoated white pvc vinyl. Its praises are not sung enough in the industry. Unfortunately if you sell the stuff to a customer they probably will think they should be getting more than just $10 material. The positive characteristics are obvious if you do critical comparison/viewing. It's very good stuff.

Overall, still my favorite material. Definately no-nonsense!

Tryg, I wonder how all this stuff compares to good ol' ultra white wall paint?!

Thanks Tryg, that was very helpful.. I think I will try the M1300... Just need to find a good source for purchasing raw material... Perhaps right here at AVS!

At these prices, I may ALSO build a DIY Firehawk and compare for myself!!!

Thanks again. This all has been very diffusing... oops, I meant illuminating!!....

didn't I just recommend the M2500 for you?

Originally posted by Tryg
The only thing I personally would ever shy away from is a gray screen with negative gain.

WOW! Did you get a prototype sample of the BlackHoleHawk too? I really love the deep blacks the -1.2 gain of this sample gives me. In fact, ever since I've been stuck in this BlackHole(tm), all I ever see is absolute blackness! Now if only I could get over the crushing pain of the immense gravitational field, I could really start to enjoy my home theater! ;)

Mike U.

Ok. working toward a Third Review!

The DIY review was fun but now it's time to bring in the Pros.

I'm working on the grandaddy of all shootouts.... more later

Any suggestions?

I've been comparing the silver spray that you used to 2 samples of the Dalite HP, taped together.

The colors and gain looked very close to each other, however the silver (sprayed on white vinyl) had a sheen/shiny aspect , in some scene areas, that the HP did not.

Did you have similar results? I didn't stretch the silver tight; perhaps that caused some of the sheen?

How do you think the silver would do sprayed on the eztheater material?

More experiments...

After lurking on the AVS forum for several months, I was determined to have a DIY screen but avoid painting it because of all the apparent problems with that method. So, after receiving my Sony HS10 last week, I built a 100" (diag) screen using blackout fabric stretched over a wooden frame. This produced a bright, vivid image, with washed out looking blacks. Next, I changed to a gray fabric ("dove grey", JoAnn Fabrics), and WOW!! The image is a bit dimmer, but the blacks are now a very dark gray. Not perfect, but very acceptable. Next: I'll change the supplied Cinema Filter (CC20M?) to a CC40R.

You know what is really interesting is that I stumbled on this Aluminium spray paint by accident when I was looking at a DIY screen surface solution. I opted for this paint which I am very happy with.

http://webhome.idirect.com/~orange1/htpics/paints.jpg

http://webhome.idirect.com/~orange1/htpics/screenclose.jpg

http://webhome.idirect.com/~orange1/htpics/screen.jpg

First off, thanks to Tryg for these comparisons.

For anyone thinking about the DIY route, just do it:

Definately try this for yourself. You can read all these comparison's all you want, but there's nothing like seeing it yourself! It's FUN too!!

I got some cheap brown board (like pegboard without the holes and really smooth on one side) from Home Depot for like $8 a sheet and cut it into 1ft squares. I also got flat white primer, gray primer, flat gray, flat white, textrured gray, clear gloss, and high heat silver spraypaint.

I tried all kinds of things:
Gray Primer and flat white paint (looked like white to me)
White primer and flat white paint (looked like white to me)
Gray Primer and flat gray paint (looked like gray to me)
White Primer and flat gray paint (looked like gray to me)
Textured Gray and Clear Gloss (don't do this one)
High Heat Silver - no primer (similar to white - better shadow detail)

I still have to try white/gray primer and silver topcoat
I also want to go get some of that aluminum.

I currently have an HS10 projector on a white wall. It's got the cinema filter installed and has been AVIA calibrated. SMART III and the CC40R are on the way.

If anyone here has not at least done the AVIA calibrations, I recommend that you do that before messing with the screen. It helped shadow detail a lot. Overall black level is still a clear shade of gray, but a ton better than it was out of the box.

Anyway...

I propped the samples up against the wall and sat down to watch. I repositioned them to catch shadows, bright scenes, flesh tones, etc...

I've discovered that I like the accurate colors of white better than gray. However, the gray color I used was a little too dark. I may try a lighter gray this week.

The silver was the next best thing to white. Shadow details were better. Colors were nearly identical to the white sample. Flesh tones actually looked a little better IMO. The only problem was that I noticed my sub-par paint job on the silver sample. The edges weren't as well covered as the center of my 1ft x 1ft sample. So on the edges, white actually had a blue hue to it. I don't know if that was the board showing thru, or what. Especially since the board is brown??? I think so, because noticed a similar blue hue on my white painted board, but a second coat did away with that.

I got Rustoleum textured dark gray on a whim to use it as a base coat. You can definately tell that there's texture there, but it's way too dark. I sprayed some gloss clearcoat over it for fun. That sucked. Don't bother. I will eventually try that textured base with the silver paint soon

My next adventure will be another coat of silver and then textured gray base and aluminium top coat.

No, I don't have any pictures. Since this is easily the cheapest thing I've done since starting my home theater, I recommend that everyone who's curious about these DIY screen with enough free time give it a try.

Even if you're determined to purchase a screen from the pros, I highly recommend spending a couple bucks on DIY screens first. Make them small or a hodge podge of different samples. You will learn a lot and will probably make your quest for the perfect screen more gratifying.

Plus you can sit back and watch the knuckleheads pound their chest about which screen is the best...and laugh at them ;)

"Plus you can sit back and watch the knuckleheads pound their chest about which screen is the best...and laugh at them "

We should probably just close the doors! And the millions spent on automated coating coating equipment, developing advanced substrates with tightly controlled gloss, neutral tinting formulations, characteristics which preserve uniform white field performance, Air and fluid filtration and control, to make every square millimeter uniform? Wasted effort! Heck, use a tarp, paper or masonite, your sedentary neighbors big white arss, anything! Make your own superior screen! Grab a can of Rustoleum silver, or Tremclad, and lap us all, in a couple weeks! Just joking buddy, in keeping with the times. Hardy Har Har! There are plenty of jokers already on this page.
But seriously if you want to use metallic pigments, you won't make anything of any uniformity, worth a monkey's butt, unless it's sprayed, by a robot, with a generously sized conventional spray gun, with a lot of control. And yes it will hotspot, and yes it will color shift, and you'll see stripes at every leading and trailing edge you coated, cause you can't keep it uniformly wet. But you could overcome that if you spent a few hundred grand on pigments, polymers and automated equipment. Of course this depends on your standards and the standards of your customers. And if your planning on staying in business, your customers are who you really listen to, (not self proclaimed internet divas). I suppose I will come in to work tomorrow after all. I've got a couple (thousand) orders to fill. But hey I'm just another knucklehead on the super information hershey highway. Where's my porn links anyway. Oh there they are, See ya!

Mark "Knucklehead" Robinson
Director of Manufacturing
Stewart Filmscreen Corp

Mark, wow! it's miller time!

BTW I am a knucklehead. I don't even need to say anything for people to realize this. Just look at my first picture.

I am overly impressed by the quality of work that the pros do! And please people don't get me wrong when I say go DIY. Some can, some cant or won't. Either way you will learn something! If there's any doubt, pros are pros for a reason....they produce professional products not amature products.

Now on to Stewart. I'm way impressed with consistency of the splatter on the Firehawk (and your other products). I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out how you do it. I guess I'll have to come down to the factory. What's obvious to any Stewart customer is their service delivery and QC perfection. Thanks for the awesome work Mark.

I hope to be working up another review soon...we'll see what the pros can really do. I hope people had fun with this last one.

Ah...now Tryg. we see the pressure to respond getting to a fever pitch. He he!..... He finally had to let that one out! Now you know why I repeat myself so often on the forum.. over, and over, and over.... gah!

BTW, I just happen to know the crew of guys who wander through the companies who make up 'Silicon Valley North', doing all the CNC work. They all have fun in their spare time making custom computerized 3-d beds...... god.. they have so many.... they are rotting away! So the equipment is rather cheap, for me...

After a little more tinkering I have a few more opinions:

I viewed Lord of the Rings and some HDTV shows on my HS10 with my DIY samples in place. It may be my lack of painting skills, but you really need to watch a real movie IN PERSON on these surfaces to compare for your own taste.

Rustoleum High Heat Silver - 2 coats of silver looks OK. No more blue tint and it blends fairly well into my flat white wall. Nice image, but consistancy will be a problem over a large area - I had trouble with one square foot.

Rustoleum High Performance Aluminum. I tried it. Too bright for me. Way too easy to create hot spots from a spray can. Possibly decent if you have a table mounted projector. Ceiling mouned will glare back at you. Consistancy will be near impossible. I'll pass.

Rustoleum Premium Metallic - Way way way too metallic. It sucked bad. I just tried it for fun.

Here's a kicker: My old Textured Gray and Clear Gloss from the earlier post... I put frosted glass glaze over it. Actually not too bad. The contrast was really good. Dark blacks, and whites that nearly matched my flat white wall, but the colors were a little dark overall because I should have used a lighter gray base coat.

My favorite DIY is still flat white.

Ooh, one other thing I tried on a whim. Looking for a different surface, I bought a cheap 4'x2' sheet of white light diffusing material for drop ceiling tiles. Styrene-something. Anyway, when you look at the smooth side, this stuff was a near perfect match (apparant color and gain as measured by the naked eye) for flat white wall paint. The strange thing was that it allowed light to penetrate deeper into the material (duh). This caused it to blur very slightly... to the point that I could stand 1 ft away, and not see the screen door. I can usually see the screen door at about 1x the screen diagonal. It really just looked like a softer image. Not out of focus, just softer. Although, I did notice hotspotting on this stuff. It actually made me think and try de-focusing my HS10 just a little. Wham, bam, thank you maam. The screendoor in almost undetectable now! Yeah, I know this is not a new revelation...

So hear's my real point:

Earlier today I went into my local retailer and saw their 110" Firehawk with an HS10 on it. Uncalibrated even. Osmosis Jones was playing in Hi-Def (HBO?) I had seen it about 2 weeks ago on my white wall. All I can say is HOLY SH*T. The Firehawk made it look like I could walk into a freaking cartoon!!! I didn't have a plain white wall for a direct comparison, but I didn't care. It looked awsome!

That alone convinced me to get a professional screen. I had considered Goo before, but again, my painting skills aren't quite up to snuff.

So, here's to you, Mr. Robinson. I'll be ordering my Firehawk this week.

After trying these DIY solutions and dropping about $50, I'm much happier in my decision to buy a professional screen. I think that's worth $50 to me. I still recommend that everyone try the DIY in real viewing conditions, evaluate your skills and budget, and then check out a Pro screen before you decide.

If you have one neighbor who is black and one who is white, can you borrow one cheek from each and get a grey-screen equivalent?

:D

mark

Comparisons with cartoons are not generally realistic,and generally.. not a good idea. They have no real delineated 'shadow detail' to go on, or to make valid comparisons with. Something well produced...and based on properly processed real film stock is the best bet, by far.

This thread is by far my favorite. all the "Powers that Be" are present. I stand in awe of the creativity.

Mark from Stewart makes some good points, as does Seand, but both forget that the purpose of finding an ideal surface finish for DIY'ers is the whole point, not spending as much for a Screen as you do for the PJ. That issue alone was enough to suppress the entry level market. But strangely enough, has anyone noted that everyone's Screen prices are dropping as well? Our efforts are in no small way affecting the Screen Mfg's line of thinking...even getting them a little riled :D As this translates into LOWER SCREEN PRICING, perhaps the industry's products will become THE ONLY route to take. Until then..................*

I take issue with the statement that surface uniformity cannot be achieved. But not with the statement that when using Silver / Metallic paints that it becomes much more difficult. Creating a completely featureless surface and then priming is the key here. Now that I'm going to place even more X1's than 20-HDs, I have to switch into "High Gain" mode. All Grey with no gain makes Jack a dull screen. And I've been so used to having a small degree of ambient light in the room ("lots of Family Room Theaters.") that the recent light controlled rooms featuring the X1 are a little depressing. Fortunately, the big drop in Client expenditure has convinced many to bite despite their dislike of "Dark Room" viewing. In fact, I've got people buying Theater seating, new Drapery, and Pop Corn machines with the remaining balance left over from the difference between the price of a 20-HD and the X1, let alone that from a $1400.00 + screen. Bump that up to a "Auto Masking" screen and .........well, I'm speechless. (no cracks, please.)

Make no bones about it, the Stewart "hawk" line is awesome in it's capabilities, but so is a Lamborghini, and owing one of those cars seems to be impractical...for the time being.

KBK, I hope to have time to hobnob with you at the shootout and relate a few special techniques and tools used to assure a flat, smooth wall finish, so your Goo and my Gunk has no problem spreading and laying evenly. Who knows? You probably already have it worked out. In any case, I'll be listening with great interest to your presentation.

Tyrg,

Your outstanding review has generated an exceptionally useful thread. I, like everyone else, truly appreciate the time and effort you went through. For my application, I had pretty much decided to give the Dazian matte white a whirl. Before doing so, I took the advice of someone else on this thread and spoke to Jason at AVS about raw fabric from the big manufacturers. Specifically, I wanted to know about Draper M1300 material.

For anyone else on the fence, I highly recommend you make the effort to get a quote. For me, the difference between raw Dazian and Draper material was less than $90 and the difference between a finished product (grommets on Dazian, velcro on Draper) less than $70.

I don't have the kind of budget where I can drop a grand on a ready made screen (unfortunately), but I can certainly justify an extra $90 for a known, quality product from a known, quality manufacturer. The screen, after all, is a pretty darn important piece of the system.

Originally posted by KBK
Comparisons with cartoons are not generally realistic,and generally.. not a good idea. They have no real delineated 'shadow detail' to go on, or to make valid comparisons with. Something well produced...and based on properly processed real film stock is the best bet, by far.
Still, the fact that even a cartoon looked sooooooo much better than it did on my wall (assuming my memory is good) was very persuasive. I actually did get to see a few of the "real life" scenes if the move too. It looked like I could walk into another room and just hang out with Bill Murray. I don't remember it looking like that on my wall...

But that's exactly why I have my Lord of the Rings DVD with me today! I just watched my favorite scenes again last night, so I'll have a fresh memory to compare. The store is a few miles from work, so it'll be a really fun long lunch today!!! Then back home tonight to re-evaluate.

Originally posted by MississippiMan
I take issue with the statement that surface uniformity cannot be achieved. But not with the statement that when using Silver / Metallic paints that it becomes much more difficult.
I agree that it's not impossible. For me it's just impractical.

Of the DIY paint screens that I've tried, Flat White still wins with me because it's easier to spray and harder to mess up. High Heat Silver was the 2nd best looking of the bunch, but harder to get an even coat than flat white. I used 3/4 of a can on a 1'x1' area just to get solid and relatively uniform coverage where the hardboard base didn't show thru. Using primer would have probably been better. Occasionally on bright white scenes I would notice the metallic sheen of the paint instead of seeing the whole scene in front of me.

It seems that many people have taken the Parkland Plastics solution rather than try a painting solution. The beauty of the Parkland solution is that it doesn't require any painting - you just use the virgin material and mount it to a thick piece of foam board. Does anyone have opinions on the parkland product vs. a painted surface?

Originally posted by HTBuilder
It seems that many people have taken the Parkland Plastics solution rather than try a painting solution. The beauty of the Parkland solution is that it doesn't require any painting - you just use the virgin material and mount it to a thick piece of foam board. Does anyone have opinions on the parkland product vs. a painted surface?


I made a parkland screenn and I would say painted surface would be way better if it is an option.

Parkland was heavy and a basic PITA, though the picture was pretty good.

The benefit of painting is easy variation/experimentation after initial setup. I bought a random matte white screen material on ebay next and built a wooden frame to staple it to, this is a much nicer looking (aesthetically/WAF) setup and allows for me to staple in something new and re-use the frame...same idea.

I didn't do a foam mount like you're suggesting so maybe my problems won't be typical. All I can say is, I wish I could paint. That'd be the setup allowing for the most fun, imo. I'd paint it different colors every month.

Good luck and the Parkland does provide a very nice image.

make sure to follow the instructions on the GLUE not the parkland plastics as far as application...IE: use the glue on BOTH surfaces unless the glue says only one.

good luck

I have been using Parkland for six months now and thinking of rolling it with Goo CRT white.
Has anyone painted their Parkland with Goo?

KBK, Can I use your CRT White with my Parkland?

Originally posted by Jsan
I have been using Parkland for six months now and thinking of rolling it with Goo CRT white.
Has anyone painted their Parkland with Goo?

KBK, Can I use your CRT White with my Parkland?

I was just thinking along the same lines, except my idea is to paint the textured side of a Parkland with the Rust-oleum Metallic Finish Aluminum paint that Tryg spoke so highly of.

Perhaps the texturing of the Parkland would help with uniformity/hotspotting.

It would be a less than $20 experiment so I may just give it a shot.

OK, after reading Tyrg's review and seeing his pics I had to try this al-u-mimium thang....

But first, some background.....I am a lurker. Yes, I admit it, I have been reading these proceedings for a while now and have flung myself into the world of front projection. I bought myself plv-60 about a year ago and haven't looked back, and its all "your" fault ;-)

My screen for the past year has been a DIY canvas, 48'' x 90'' , painted with Bher "Universal Grey". My thinking was that this would be an inexpensive version of a "GreyHawk" screen. And generally I have been fairly happy with it. But Tyrg's experiment intrugied me so off to the Home Depot I go to get this al-u-minum paint, and just in time too as there are only two cans left! I used both of them to repaint my canvas screen.

Things I like -
After re-adusting the color and grey scale with the Avia disk, I see a great improvement in the brightness and color saturation. The image has more "Snap" and appears to have more depth of field, or to be more 3-d like. This produces a very seductive image.
The blacks are good as well, or at least as good as they were with the grey screen. The reason I went to a grey screen in the first place was that I thought it would give me improved black level and detail, but this very bright silver screen looks just as good in that area.
Another thing is the the screen door is gone! Even at close range I cannot see it. Somthing about the way the light is scattered creates a soft focus effect, not really noticable from the seating postion, but you can see it when you walk up to the screen.

Things I dont like -
This is very hard to get a uniform coat applied. I was not successful in this regard and thus the screen has some lighter and darker areas which are noticable when large single color areas are projected, ie skys and walls etc... Also the "grain" on the canvas can be seen as a slight veil you look through to see the image. This is more noticable that the screen door was with the grey screen, but it is much finer, and easy to forget about, for a while at least.
Hotspotting to a minor extent. The brighest part of the screen is directly in front of you. If you sit in the center, this is no problem. But if you sit at either end of the screen, then there is a noticable difference in brightness between the near and far ends of the screen. This problem is less severe the farther you sit from the screen. I sit 10' from the screen and it is still noticable somewhat.

Overall I like the effect and think I would prefer a higher gain screen than my previous grey one. But the Rust-o-leum may go a bit too far. I think a little less gain and more smoothness across the screen might be what I need. I bought a quart of Bher metallic silver that I can apply with a roller to try next......

Cheers

I just did a test piece using a product called Penetrol Anti-Corrosion Aluminium paint. This is meant to penetrate into aged metal. It comes in a can which you roller on.

I applied it direct to a smallish piece of MDF. It sinks in so that the finish isn't glossy.

The initial test seems promising enough to do a full screen, although it does seem variable depending on the angle you view it.

I'll report back when I've done a fuller screen.

Steve

Hi
From down under, this has been great reading, i have built a screen using all the info.
Has anyone tried using a sheet of Aluminium that has been anodised in its natural colour, this would have a consistant colour and texture with a light sheen. Available from your local aluminium supplier.
I tried a small strip looks good will need to get a larger sheet and try.
As for Aluminium paint, try an acrylic water base spray can - this will give less gloss.

Keep us posted on that paint. I wish I could find something like the Rustolium that is rollable. I'll never get an even coat with Rustolium on a 130" screen:rolleyes:

Flan

Hi Paul,

I'm an optometrist in Brisbane. I use a projector chart at work, and the letters are projected onto a 50 cm x 50 cm piece of aluminium something or other. It certainly works well enough such that I can leave all the room lights on during testing. Its certainly a brighter, more contrasty image than if I swing the projected image onto the adjacent white wall. Its stuck to the wall with double sided tape so I can't just peel it off and take home to try. It does have a narrow viewing angle though, performance certainly drops off as you walk to the side. It looks great with all the colours of the various test types (red/green etc), but I don't know what it would do with flesh tones. Also the image looks a bit speckly compared to the image on the white wall, that might get a bit annoying, i.e., look too false with film/video.

I'm glad people are having fun experimenting and finding some good results!

If more people continue to do this eventually there will be a material or paint that is found that knocks our socks off. Keep up the good work and if you can, share your results!

can we get new hosting for these pictures?

I have been reading that a lot of people are having problems getting an even coat with either the spray aluminum or spray silver. What if you took a sample of the spray aluminum/silver to a paint dealer, ie. Sherwin Williams, and had them match it so that it can be rolled on? Does this sound possible?

I don't think it's a simple matter of matching it. Unless your local paint dealer can match metallic paints (which I'd doubt) you're more likely to get grey paint out of the paint matching systems that I've seen.

The nice thing is that it is available in a can, you just have to look harder for it. I got mine at a J & H Builder's Warehouse (like Home Depot) I'd guess that if you asked nicely, someone could order it in for you, if you can't find it locally.

hoops, go to an auto paint supplier.

I'll see what I can do to get a more reliable server for these pictures. Especially since I'll be posting more in a couple weeks.

BTW the SS is in the house.

tryg, so what you are saying is to take a sample of the rustoleum silver to an auto paint supplier and see if they can match it? While we are talking about this I might as well ask this, would rolling the paint on with a roller give a more even coat or would spraying it on with a spray paint can be the best way? Also, what about using drywall as the screen material? Has it been tried?

It's far easier to get an even coat with a roller than a spray can.

There's a significant problem with controlling the spray out of the can, while with a roller, you have pretty good control of the application.

The nice thing with the aluminium is that it rolls really nicely - it doesn't dry so quickly that you have to do anything special to avoid lap marks - just backroll when you're done (at least in my experience)

I tried spraying silver using an electric spray gun similar to what you would use to spray a fence or house. After practicing on coardboard and sparying two patterns at a 90 degree angle the results looked acceptable. However when used with the projector, minor surface imperfections were unacceptable. Otherwise the picture was great compared to a matte white screen. Richer colors and deeper blacks.

I tried spraying silver using an electric spray gun similar to what you would use to spray a fence or house. After practicing on coardboard and sparying two patterns at a 90 degree angle the results looked acceptable. However when used with the projector, minor surface imperfections were unacceptable. Otherwise the picture was great compared to a matte white screen. Richer colors and deeper blacks. I first tried using a roller and that did not work. It lays differently than regular paint and each stroke leaves a line at the edge of the roller.

JDecleri, so what did you end up doing? When you said "each stroke leaves a line at the edge of the roller" are you talking about a thick line, because if you back roll, it solves that problem.

Love the thread. Got curious and wanted to try the Rust-oleum Metallic Silver (RMS). Here is my story...

Background:
Current Screen: 3:2 80in blackout cloth
Projector: ViewSonic DLP (1024 by 768, 1000 lumens, 500:1 contrast)

I went to Home Depot and bought a couple of can RMS ($3.79/can). I was going to use it on my current screen, but after some advice from a friend who has more experience using spray paints, decided against it and bought a 40" by 80" foam-core board ($10) to try it out.

I laid it flat on a clean garage floor and let'er rip. It was impossible to get a consistent smooth finish. I tried various techniques, but due to the small radius of the paint coming out of the can, it is impossible to get a consistent coat. If I put another 10 coats I might have been able to get something acceptable, but was not going to spend another $60 trying that. After it dried, I hung it next to my screen and played some HDTV materials on it.

Pro:
Definitely better blacks and color saturation. The colors definitely poped compared to my blackout screen. I was surprised to see that the blacks were blacker. The picture was also noticeably brighter.

Con:
Of course the imperfections of the screen really shows through. Unless you get a perfect layer of paint, it is going to be very distracting. I also noticed that the silver flakes really shined bright. It is as though there were thousands of little stars shining in front of the screen - too distracting for my taste.

Overall, even if I could lay down a perfect layer of paint, I think this paint is bit much. Another paint with finer metallic powder may help, or may be mix with some other non-metallic paint.

Gonna try Parkland Plastic next.

Gameboy

gameboy, what is Parkland Plastic? Also, you may want to experiment with that paint on a piece of formica. I have read posts that said the formica makes a good material. I am thinking about doing a DIY screen, and maybe trying to roll the paint on instead of spraying it.

hoops, do a search on 'Parkland'. All your questions will be answered!

One observation from someone new in this area:
Apparently the metallic silver paint is "tooo much". What happens if we apply a layer of semi-transparent/diffuse kind of paint OVER the silver? Just to difract/amortiguate to a degree the radiation of direct light reflecting from the screen? Makes any sense?

Ric

I went to home depot and tried the Rust Oleum metallic finish "silver" and it seemed to offer less gain than my parkland plastics screen. I will look out and see if i can find the "aluminium" sometime. I sprayed it onto a high density wood particle board.

I should note that I was only using a small board sample and while the blacks appeared darker, it did not give any higher gain than my current screen which is what I was looking for.

Aaron, when you got your parkland plastic, what color did you get it in? Are all parkland plastics in white or do they come in other colors?

Hoops10
I tried various roller techniques and still couldn't get it right. My alternatives would be to buy a quality HVLP spray gun and compressor on ebay for about $150 and try again, go back to matte white or buy screen material. I took the lazy way out and bought DaLite High Contrast Cinima Vision material from AVS.

JDecleri, can you tell me more about this DaLite High Contrast Cinima Vision material from AVS? Thanks.

Hoops 10
check out their website www.dalite.com any you can do a search here in the screens forum for comments from others on this material (HCCV).
It is a light grey with a gain of about 1.1 said to be similar to the Stewart Firehawk but MUCH less expensive. Seems to be a preferred material for many situations.

I was interested in making a DIY screen for my X1, and after getting some inspiration reading the postings here, I thought I'd try getting some blackout cloth from the local fabric store.

After looking at the whiteness of the cloth and comparing it to some other white materials, I decided at the last moment not to get the blackout since it was just slightly less white than I expected.

Instead, I looked around and found some interesting material. It's a cotton / rayon blend that resembles the satin cloth that some shiney wedding dresses are made of. It's a silvery white and reflects quite well! I made a quick rig to see how the X1 looked on it, and I was fairly impressed. It certainly does gain a bit in brightness since it's very reflective, and the images were quite clear (I could make out the screendoor still at close range). I still need to do some tests as I don't have anything to scretch it on yet, but I hope to fabricate a picture frame type thingy and staple it on. The other side of the material is basically matte white (very white!) so I was hoping to make a dual sided screen just in case the shiney side sucks.

Has anyone else tried this fabric? I wonder if it will hotspot too much. It comes in 140 cm widths.

HHBL

I just saw the Da-lite hi-power and HCCV over at Darinp's place yesterday and I must say that I am impressed with both screens!

Originally posted by Tryg
I just saw the Da-lite hi-power and HCCV over at Darinp's place yesterday and I must say that I am impressed with both screens!
When I saw the Firehawk sample on top of the HCMW (pulldown version of the HCCV) I was surprised that the HCMW looks a little bit brighter, since the Firehawk is rated at 1.35 and the HCMW is rated at 1.1 gain. On white lettering I would say they are close when watching on axis with ceiling mount, but if I had to give the nod one way it would have been to the HCMW for brightness. Note that I didn't check that these were 100 IRE whites, though.

Since I was originally considering the Firehawk because I wanted things just a little bit brighter than the HCMW I decided that I wouldn't buy the Firehawk. However, after a couple of more days of testing I've decided that I probably will be buying a screen with the Firehawk material. The reason isn't so much the slightly darker blacks or the ambient light rejection (even though those are good), but because it looks a hair clearer to me. With white lettering it looks like maybe a little less blooming than the HCMW and one thing that has frustrated me about the HCMW is that I can see the screen sparkle. With the Firehawk I don't see that nearly as much. From 1.8 screen width away I noticed this difference a little bit and so I went up and looked at the screens closely. With my HT1000 shining an image the HCMW has kind of a sheen or sparkle to it that isn't there with the Firehawk.

One thing that I like about the Hi-Power is that I never see the screen itself, but I felt like I got more image depth with the HCMW with the bad side effect of the sparkles. From reports and what I've seen I think the Firehawk would show the sparkles or screen material with bright images before the Hi-Power would, but it still looks significantly better than the HCMW in that regard.

I used to marvel that a 92" wide pulldown Firehawk costs more than 6 times the pulldown HCMW, but now I'm strongly considering paying the premium. I don't know how the Model C does for waves with the HCMW, but Da-Lite was right that this isn't the right material for a Model B, in my experience. At least with the Firehawk there is a tensioning system.

For me, the Firehawk in my dark theater room with a ceiling mounted projector and the Hi-Power in my light walled living room with a big screen and a projector down low look like the best fits. I may just buy some Firehawk material and make a small plasma sized screen for my bedroom before committing to the price of a big Firehawk.

--Darin

A bump for J.L.!

One part BEHR METALLIC SILVER
Eight parts BEHR ULTRA PURE WHITE
Eight Parts distilled water
Sprayed on with HVLP Sprayer

I'm THINKING about it
Stop me before its too late.

I'm spraying a screen for the first time. (Blackout cloth stretched onto wood frame)
http://www.davidjfriedman.com/XG852/ScreenPainting/Painting.JPG

I started with Behr WHITE PRIMER and now I'm up to topping off with multiple very thin coats of ULTRA PURE WHITE (eggshell)
I'm using an inexpensive Campbell Haufeld HVLP sprayer that I got at Home Depot.

I need to run back to home Depot to pick up some sandpaper to sand out some uneven spots before continuing...

But I keep seeing the SILVER paint which looks like this, except its SILVER!
http://www.behr.com/images/productgroup/74104_805918R.jpg
More info here:
http://www.behr.com/behrx/act/view/products_detail?prodGroupId=29&catName=Faux/Decorative%20Finishes&catId=18

Should I go for it? Should I mix the SILVER with the ULTRA PURE WHITE?

From what I was told, blackout cloth is already primed and doesn't need to be primed before you paint it. Also, you have to sand the blackout cloth? That sounds like its going to be difficult to sand cloth.

Hey hoops,

The layer of primer is to build up the surface slightly to fill in the texture on the cloth (both sides of the blackout have some texture). I may have been able to build up the surface with paint alone, but I figured a layer of primer couldn't hurt.

The sanding is to smooth out some runs or inconsistencies that build up between coats.

I'm still equivocating whether I should attempt to add some silver to the pure white, at the risk of producing some type of unusable result...or just going for the standard reliable white.

Which side of the cloth did you decide to use? I noticed that after looking at blackout cloth, it looked like 1 side was a glossy side.

That is the side I used.

For exactly that reason--- that it is smother than the other side.

This is just my neophyte opinion, but I would think that with 8 parts white to one part silver, you will end up with a white screen with a few sparklies embedded in it. It may be also difficult to keep the finish consistant. I am not sure that you would really see much benefit from the silver unless you use considerably more, and every indication I have seen says that it takes multiple coats to get an even silver finish. As much effort as you have tied up in this project, you might want to just run with a white screen for now and see if someone else pioneers a better formula in the next few months.

If I mix a quart or two of this 8 to 1 formula and apply it in multiple thin coats it should go on pretty consistently.

I think I would have a low risk of a non-useable screen (better chance of acheiving uniformity than if using pure silver) but I may still be likely to realize some of the benefits of silver.

A white screen with a subtle hint of silver sparklies might be a good compromise...not a Ferrari of course, more like an upgrade from a Honda Accord to a Honda Prelude.

Sounds like a plan. You might want to spray a sample on a piece of foamboard, or maybe some scrap blackout cloth left over from your screen just to be sure. Let us know how it turns out.

I have a PLV-Z1 projecting onto a blackout cloth and I am thinking about upgrading my screen, but I have a few questions.

What kind of gain is blackout cloth, and how closely does it resemble a matte white screen?

What gain/screen material would you recommend for the Z1?

I was looking at the liquiscreen, pvc vinyl, or the matte white (such as vutec or generic), but those are very random choices. If you could offer your input for screen material I would be all ears.

Thanks

I just finished painting my blackout screen with behr ultra pure white, which I think would be similar in result to a standard matte white screen.
I figured this is the basic "standard" sprayed screen to start to measure others against and also to learn the technique of an HVLP sprayer.

While I haven't yet done extensive viewing, I think the gain is similar to the blackout I had been using, but the main improvement is purity of the white. Blackout (like the sammples I was using) is often slightly blue. (I did use the slightly riskier eggshell finish, which came out very much replicating the fine texture and very subtle shimmer look of an eggshell)

I tried to paint a few samples pieces of board with the Behr Premium Plus metallic silver and I'm glad I took Assayer's advice not to attempt it on my actual screen:

First, it took some trials to get the thinning and spray patterns right, which could easily have ruined my screen had I tried spraying silver. More important, I don't know if this particular paint is "silver" enough to work well. I should experiment more, but this particular formula seems to be more of a metallic gray than silver. Finally, it is much less forgiving of slightly inconsistent spraying even when doing so correctly.

I should experiment more with different formulas. I'm sure someone here will eventually come up with the right formula (and just as important,----the accompanying application technique) for creating a "SilverStar" like coating. I'm sure its got alot to do with having a correct base layer, the fineness of the metal particles and how they orient themselves and set with different application methods.

I'll go out on a limb and predict "Silver Goo" within 6 months.

What an awesome thread. Can't wait to see how some of these DIY "silver" screens turn out!

dave :)

Originally posted by djordan

I'll go out on a limb and predict "Silver Goo" within 6 months.

I'm really surprised Ken hasn't posted that he's been working on "Silver Goo" for the last six months and it's nearly perfected :p

I was just going to suggest the Digital Gray goo on blackout cloth. I too am building a DIY blackout cloth screen. I want to see how it looks before I buy and apply the digital gray goo. What do you think about that screen and the Z1? Also, what gain would just the blackout cloth give you? What gain would the blackout cloth painted with digital gray goo give you?

An idea that I'm toying with is to use a silver base-coat under a goo coat.

From my understanding, the top coat of goo is fairly transparent, so the color of the base coat makes a difference. I guess one of these days I should just order some goo and try it though.

Has anyone tried spray adhesive and massive quantities of glitter? (Is Saturday Night Fever available on DVD? You'd want the right source material to test a screen like that!) :D

On a more serious note, thanks for doing this, Tryg. I wish it didn't lean so heavily toward bulb projectors, though. I'm wondering if an MFA-based screen, in conjunction with a fairly bright (1000 lumens) ceiling-mounted CRT could produce a bright enough image to (at least slightly) offset the ambient light issues taht plague us CRT owners...

Also, in the future, maybe you could do a review on acoustically transparent screens?

I have tried 3 times to build a DIY screen and failed each time. Here’s what happened.

My 2nd projector is the Infocus X1. I have been using a Da-Lite Glass Bead pull-down screen for 3 years. Yes I didn’t know anything back then…

Now my 1st attempt:

Using a piece of back-rubberized cloth (I really don’t know what it is, may be that’s the blackout cloth people have been talking about here) I brought a few years ago for my original projector. I never really used that cloth because my Da-Lite was brighter and better. I sprayed the Rust-oleum – Metallic Finish “Aluminum” (spray paint)
(Home depot: V7715) on the rubber side thinking it was smoother than the front. The result was a total disaster because any tiny fiber or dust became giant trees after soaking up the spray mist. Needless to say the try out was bad. Now I really know what Tryg meant when he said “flat surface”. Total waste 2 cans of paint and 1 piece of 3 year old $10 cloth.

My 2nd attempt:

Got a 4x8 compressed particle board (or whatever Temp HDBD is) for $5.95 from HomeDepot. This board has 1 rough side and 1 smooth side. I sprayed 2 cans of the same paint on it and the try out was…well it has all the qualities as Tryg said, great brightness and contrast. Color was great. The only negative is bright objects are very unrealistic. E.g. clouds sparkles instead of cotton like. I think the gain is too much and the paint has too much reflective material in it. In fact, a half and half test with my Da-Lite made me discard this screen right away. When standing up (my projector is ceiling mounted), the brightness of both is about the same. However the Da-Lite was MUCH smoother and natural. So Total waste: 2 cans of paint again.

My 3rd attempt:

This time, I re-read Tryg’s post and went to Home Depot and got me 2 cans of Rust-oleum – High Heat “Silver” (7716 Heat Resistant Silver) and sprayed over the aluminum paint. I didn’t do as careful a job as the last attempt so the paint wasn’t as smooth but hey if it worked, I wouldn’t mind spraying one more time. This time, the gain is much less BUT that darn reflective material is still there. ALL bright objects have this unnatural reflection, especially the sky. However, the contrast, color, and most important, darkness are excellent. Still the Da-Lite beats it in the sky scenes.

Now I still have the screen hanging in the room because...man, I can even watch HDTV with the lights on. It is just a great screen…only if I can get rid of that reflective material.

So my old Da-Lite glass bead stills beats out my DIY screen.

Now I don’t know what to do, as I have tasted the great grey screen. Matte-white will never beat the grey screen but I can’t get any good and cheap commercial screens. Any suggestions? I won’t try any more metallic paints as I just can’t stand those shining clouds.

Kin

:D Kin, you are da man!

Kin,
You should try the goo paint. It is expensive, but I heard it works great. I plan on using it here shortly.

Hello screen experts.

I’ve been over in the Screen forum for the past few days since Tryg posted in the CRT forum.

I have some confusion that you can help clear up for me.

*
for bulb projectors, I thought that people wanted a negative gain screen, like a grey screen, in order to make the blacks look blacker.

If that is true, why are many mentioning the great qualities of 3-gain, 6-gain, or higher screens with their bulb projectors? Won’t it be too bright?

*
For CRT projectors, I thought that something like a 1.3 gain would be perfect. Just a little gain, and it keeps the colors where they should be.

If you have a CRT projector with some unwanted ambient light, a 3-gain, 6-gain, or higher screen would be a possible trade off... am I right?

*

I guess I am missing the fundamentals. I read Tryg’s screen reviews. Thanks, Tryg. Very informative. But I cannot judge how relevant they are to my situation since I have a CRT projector.

Thanks

As a CRT owner, I too am curious about this. Is it possible that a high-gain screen might allow me to watch via my projector even with moderate levels of ambient light? Obviously black levels would suffer, but if overall brightness was higher and colors were sufficiently bright/vivid, this could be acceptable for non-critical viewing.

It'd be pretty cool to be able to watch football on Sunday mornings without having to turn my living room into a cave...

Not a CDT expert, but

LCD, and especially DLP have gotten much better in last couple of years (better contrast/black level) can handle higher gain. Also, supposedly hot-spotting is not as bad as with a CRT as all colors come through one lens.

My only worry about high-gain is if there is also the same high gain on the ambient light.

Somebody will correct me if need be.

This and a couple other threads got me thinking. I may go buy one of those huge silver tarps, hook it to the side of the house, and have a drive-in this summer.

ElvisIncognito
I have the same the same problem, only with an X1, so I don't think I can get too "hot" with a screen. AFAIK With ambient light, I believe you need to determine where you want the ambient light to be reflected to, in order to choose whether retro reflective or angular reflective screens will be better in your circumstances. Retro goes back to its source, angular to the opposite side. It's kind of hard for me to picture which would be better for me, let alone you. Most of my ambient light comes from one side. i'm guessing - angular reflective?

Tryg-

On one sample, you sprayed the Metallic Finish Aluminum onto Dacron cloth. I'm curious as to the characteristics of that cloth and its interaction with the paint...

Dacron is a stretchy cloth isn't it? If so, then it should be feasible to place speakers behind it... If you stretched it the right amount before painting it, might it still pass audio after the paint was applied? (This has been a long standing theory of mine; I'm curious as to your opinion.) I would also think that cloth would provide a "wicking" effect that might tend to even out the coat (with less visible streaks, bands, etc.) - did you find this to be the case?

Pocatello,

you can choose any gain you want. If you want brighter go with higher gain. There's just less issues with lower gain screens

Elvis

Dacron is like a nylon/polyester. It shouldnt stretch. I choose it because it shouldn't soak up any elements of the paint thus seperating the components. Cotton may do this. It does wick however because it is pourous. I think I would recommend a non permiable vinyl type backing for any further experimentation. That is of coarse only if you need it to be flexable. Best results will probably be with a solid surface backing.

I don't need it to be flexible, per se - I need it to pass audio. (I want to place my center channel speaker directly behind the screen... in fact, I intend to build the speaker into the screen frame assembly.) My thought was to get some stretchy material, stretch it over a frame, spray it with the aluminum paint, then blow compressed air through it to "open up the pores", then repeat as necessary, applying several thin coats to get an even finish. Of course, if I could find some silver cloth that would pass audio, that'd certainly be a lot easier...

Last time I went to Home Depot I saw a 4x8 foot panel of White Backer Board (I think that's what it was called...) for about $10.xx something. It was about 1/4" or less in thickness and has one side covered with a thin matte white vinyl type material. It may have a very slight sheen, but I couldn't tell at the store.

I was wondering that this could be perfect as a screen by itself, or to use as a platform to do painting experiments...

My 2 cents... I'll check this out closer next time I go there...

I am about to begin this experiment. What base material are you all using for the screen. I saw mention of a foam board. Please explain. Are some using a stretched cloth to paint on, fiber board, sheet rock, what? If it's up to me then what seems to be best, smooth?, how smooth. I would like to at least have my paint application be the problem and not the screen material.

Thanks!
Rob

I was at joann fabrics looking for blackout cloth when I spotted a silver metallic paint in the fabric paint section. Im familiar with automotive metallics, and this had significantly smaller flakes and a much smoother appearance. Plus it was only 4.99 for a 4 ounce bottle, making it a cheap test.

I am looking to apply this to a thin drywall board thats been prepped with a coat of stain-block.

Anyone have any suggestions before I set out.

Just to keep us posted on the results!!

Make sure you air-gun it on, it's SO hard to get a good coverage rolling...

Let me know how it turns out, I want to try a different formula!

Anyone ever think of photography background silver fabric as a starting point?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/product/31219/LIFSP42/REG/1341


Also, some cool ideas here....
http://www.amt-usa.com/en/curtain.htm

I may have found something that would get Tryg's heartbeat up :D

I parked my car yesterday and noticed that the window shade I've been using for a while may work as a projector screen. It's called "Magic Shade" by Axius. It has a silver metallic finish that reflects and diffuses light quite good. It's quite thin but the back side is black so no transparency there. As a screen it needs tensioning though...

So I took it in and compared it against a standard matte white screen using a 1300 lumen DLP projector. The blacks were definately a lot blacker (very nice!) but the brightness stayed close to matte white quality with a bit darker colors.

The problem is getting the material in larger sizes though as the Axius window shades only come at a maximum of 31"x38" size (Super Jumbo). You can get the window shades at Walmart for about $5-7 bucks.

I've tried contacting Axius but I can only get an answering machine. Maybe someone is able to track down where to get the fabric for larger sizes?

Several interesting hits when you google for "reflective fabric" AND silver...

Here's one such example:
http://www.mutualindustries.com/reflectives/html/silver.html

Here's another:
http://www.intertraffic.com/marketplace/mypage/pressreleases_detail.asp?mypageid=544&newsid=183

There's a type of boat cover that looks exactly like the window shade you are talking about. I don't know the name of the boat cover, but have seen it. It seems to stretch easily. You should be able to find a fairly large boat cover to get enough material for a screen.

Is the possibility of paying a few bucks to your local body shop to paint a screen worth a try? It would be one way of making sure a siver paint would be done right. just a thought.

I'm a auto painter and I can't speak for every body shop but for a nominal fee I personally wouldn't have a problem spraying a few screens.

Ddog!!

siver!? I meant Silver. whoops

KLAATUWI: In each post, there is an Edit button near the upper right you can use to correct booboos. :)

What type of result do you think you would get if you took a thin piece of sheet metal and powder coated it? You would get a smooth consistent finish, then mount it to a stronger backing. My friend owns a powder coat oven and I'll ask him to see a brochure on his colors.

One problem may be hotspotting. If you could add a hint of texture, it might be the best thing yet. What would that co$t?

To avoid a smooth surface it could have a textured coating applied. From Tryg's up close photos gives a good idea of the type of texturing. I am waiting to hear about availability of color and his comments on the process. I know he has done metal fence for about $5 per foot. Even with a bit more surface area, the cost should not get too much more - so $50-100 and the application would be perfect. Even is there were a slight error, it is easy to run through again to correct. Very forgiving compared to spray paint, and a surface that is very resistant to abrasion.

Can powder coating be clear? I suspect not. Presumably you're considering sheet metal due to its reflective similarities to a finished silver screen (whether from VueTec or DIY) but the instant you powder coat it, that reflectivity goes away. (It's a coating, right? Thus the sheet metal underneath is no longer visible.) In order to make this work, you'd need to powder coat using a reflective powder. I have no idea if this exists, but I've never seen it. I think that's where you need to start, though.

You don't want clear on metal as you would be getting something like a mirror. I was thinking of something like the Rust Oleum High Heat Silver that Tryg was experimenting with. The reflective silver like coating would be powder coated to the metal. I agree that a shiny surface would not be good, like semi-gloss paint. The advantage of the powder coat is that it would be a very consistant finish, unlike the problems encountered with the spray cans. And I will check to see if it can be a matte like. I don't know what the cost of a thin sheet of metal up to 10' long would be. Plus it would have to be back mounted.

With the slightly rough texture necessary I saw something last night that I had to laugh at, but then started to think a little more seriously. Over by the Edwards Theater they have a ceramic shop. They had some greenware about trivit size that were ready to be painted, glazed and fired. I'll bet that surface could be created to have about any texture you want. Of course making a 10' sheet would strain reason, but porcelain can be powder coated.

Just some random thoughts.

I have tried the hometheater link mentioned in the first post and been unable to download the document described.

Could someone please e-mail a copy of the document to: timmaddog@comcast.net.

Thanks

By the way. I was looking at dat-light's web site and they say the screen height should be 1/6 the rear seat dimension. This means for seats located 12' from the screen the height of the screen should be 24". Are you kidding me? That is smaller than my FP big screen. What am I doing wrong here?

Thanks

Bob

Has anybody got their Aluminum painted screens to have this kind of texture? DDog?

http://home.comcast.net/~tryghoff/13.jpg

Anodized Aluminum looks like this similar but much finer structure had to shine a light from the side to get it to show at all.

I'm using a fabric with a pattern like that

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/7420600fabric.jpg

The picture shows it unpainted. I can't get a good picture holding a coin to the painted fabric with one hand and the camera in the other, sorry ;)

I found out what the material is that I use for my screen (pic above): ordinary vinyl wall paper.
So if you're looking for that 'magic' pattern you know where to look.

Has anyone done any more experimenting on this stuff yet? I'm considering purchasing either the Infocus X1 or the Sharp PG-AX10. With my (extremely) limited budget, a DIY screen seems the way to go. I just finished reading the thread from begining to end, and I'm curious if anyone has found the "ultimate" paint/material combo.

anyone?

anyone?

bueller?

~squighound

squighound,

Guess what? Intrepid souls who know NO fear have indeed stretched DIY screen performance to the limits of reality.

This thread, and other Tryg endeavors have stirred many.

And to all rights,(...and considerable credit...) many of Trygs posts and reviews were the basis of our R&D, as were the elements and concepts behind Goo, an excellent product itself that can figure into our designs when financially applicable. And DDog, where ever he may dwell, pioneered a few of the most important elements. What goes around, comes around, and what is old is new once more. The world turns.

Using a Plexiglas base, coated on both sides with special paint combinations, the SuperDeluxe/MississippiMud screen delivers as bright an image as any High Gain screen, with detail that is exacting, and a color correctness that effectively surpasses those screens costing over 8-10 times the expense of the DIY materials.

Variations on this scheme, using Hardboard or Parkland as a substrate still deliver results that amaze viewers and will confound and distress Screen Mfgs.

To wit, and in a nutshell, here are the basics. We have complete instructions posted elsewhere.

1 - 1/8" thick x 4' x 8' or larger Plexiglas sheet.

1 - Quart of Kilz2 Primer with 1/96 Oz of Lamp Black added to create a Grey background for.........*

1 - Quart Beir Silver Metallic.

Initial step. Roll, or HVLP Spray (much preferred) 2 coatings of the Silver Metallic onto one side of the Plexi Then, apply the Grey primer over the top of the silver (..which is, of course, the back of the silver...)

* MM Top Coat.

(All Paints are "Flat" Acrylic Latex)

1 Quart Beir Deep Base (1300)
1 Quart Beir Beir Ultra Pure White
1 Quart Beir "White Opal" Pearlescence (Faux Paint)
2 1/96 Oz. Droplets of Lamp Black
1 1/96 Oz. Droplet of Thallo Green

Must be mixed throughly at the "Depot" via the Shaker for two 5 min. cycles



Flop the Plexi over and apply the first layer of MM Top Coat*. Roll, or spray (...again, spraying is much preferred.) If you roll, you must lightly wet sand the first coat using a Large, Medium/Fine Sanding sponge, throughly wetted and rung out, and evenly swept across the surface.

Roll or spray another coat.

All coats MUST be DRY before wet sanding or following up with the next coat. I employ the Earle Schiebe "Blast 'em Dry" method by using a small Propane Reddi Heater directed at the center from 6' and two 500 watt lamps directed at each side end at the bottom edge. This will allow 1 hour drying times for rolled finishes and 15-20 minute times for sprayed finishes. Otherwise, expect 24 and 4 hour times respectively at room temperature and longer at cooler temps.

Mount Plexi on any lightweight but rigid material, frame with any number of methods, hang where desired. Enjoy.

Yeah....way oversimplified, but essentially that's it. Painting skills, either previously acquired or gleaned from instructions also available, will make all the difference. If your really good at rolling thicker paints, and take some time to learn a deft touch at wet sanding, you can achieve as smooth finish akin to glass as you could imagine. The MM Top Coat and Goo Top Coats both feel slick & wet to the touch if applied properly.

The Great Texture Debate.

No debate necessary. Ever see a texture like Tryg's Silver above on a screen of any design? I bet you haven't! That texture is merely a better than usual result of a good roll job. Perhaps as good as any good achieve without additional wet sanding.

But.................................*

For the record, texture is not desired. For it to be necessary to offset overt reflectivity is the same as saying you have to have speed bumps every 100 yards on the Freeway. It's counterproductive to create adverse angles of refraction for any reason. Light waves of all spectrum's should ideally reflect back at angles determined by their specific wavelengths. First surface mirrors are used in RPTVs because they offer ideally the highest percentage of reflectivity. (93% to 97%)

If you can achieve a 'virtually' perfect blend of overall reflectivity (gain) without graininess, and maintain color correctness by getting light to reflect according to its preference and not according to conditions, then you should never need to consider texture as a counterbalance.

Mirrors were considered, and in keeping, tests with Aluminum paint and Aluminum foil backing Plexiglas were tried and dismissed. A truly bright silver metallic was zeroed in on. It delivered high reflectivity, but not so high as to create overt hotspotting, and a sharpness that highlighted detail to the point of graininess. Many entry level PJs (LCDs) have both low luminosity values (600-800 Lumens) and SDE to worry about, and our directed efforts were to offset such vagrancies but keep on screen luminosity high.

X1s and their ilk have an easier time of it, what with their excellent contrast ratio and increased Lumen specs. many souls swear by the images they get up on raw Parkland! Even High Lumen PJs (1500 to 2200) and Mustang 2 Chip based PJs can benefit greatly from this application, be it Plexi or "On the Wall". I've installed several X1s with "Painted Wall" screens consisting of only the Top Coat elements listed, or with Goo CRT White Top Coat. If the Client can ante up for the additional cost of a Goo application, I'm assurred of excellent results.....and no mixing. If not, and I must foot the bill, the MM Mix rules, for it costs only $80.00 and delivers 3 times the quantity to first test & train, apply, and (gasp) repair if necessary. For beginning DIY'ers, this has to be a consideration.

I guess profit has a little to do with it too in my case.

But Goo does offer simplicity, and combined with innovative Silver & (Gold is in the offing) Base Coats, and the Plexi sandwich, the extra cost can easily be justified by DIY'er that are not frightened of spending a little more to take it to the umpteenth level. Oh yeah....., walls too.

If one spends even a small sum ($900-$1100.00) for an entry level PJ, the end results must depend on the surface that accepts the image. At worst, the best the above SD/MM application has to offer in the Plexi format cost a mere $225.00 in materials. Add another $125.00 if a Goo Top Coat is desired. $350.00

Let's say you use the SD/MM formula on a 5' x 10' Parkland sheet.

$180.00

A finished Dry wall wall?

$ 85.00

Now lets get serious.

Complete HLVP Spray outfit w/Hoses, Regulator/Filter/ 5 Hp -24 Gallon Compressor, Gravity Feed Gun. At Home Depo. $225 complete

All the paint as described above in the SD/MM format $100.00

108" diagonal Plexi Sheet (approx 102' x 62"0 $125.00

Misc. Supplies (incl.Wood Screen Trim w/felt or velvet) $ 50.00

Total cost for one very excellent DIY Screen $ 500.00

Rent a Spray rig, and subtract $100.00
Buy the rig, and become beloved in your neighborhood.

Is the best worth it? Well, considering this screen can be almost any size you want or that is needed, up to the limits of the availability of the Plexi, or almost NO limit when painting the formula directly on a wall, and that the results outstrip that of both HC & High Gain Mfg screens that come loaded with compromises of one sort or another..............;

you betcha.

But the attached Screen Shot ( excellently rendered & provided by CMRA, a partner in this crime) should allow you and others to decide. The shot involves Nicole Kiddman and her creamy skin tones. get skin tones looking right, and most everything else fall into place.

Pj used is a Z1 Camera is a $1200.00 Oly whose model escapes me.

The background screen is a High Contrast "painted board" screen coated with CMRA's ME paint. ME is short for Misty Evening, a light Grey, Glidden Color that contains Thallo Green to enhance contrast levels beyond what the 'grey' alone can accomplish, but without seriously 'crushing' white levels. It costs about $15.00 worth of paint (incl. a quart of grey tinted Kilz2 Primer) to effect a screen surface that performs well with the PJ used for the Screen Shot, a Z1 with 700 Lumens and a mere 600;1 Contrast ratio. Higher lumen PJs really get great results, and the ME mix has been adopted by many on this forum as the ultimate easy & affordable DIY paint around. And it remains so for those looking for an easy out.

But it is also the basis for starting out on a quest to get the BEST results possible, and in a format and mixture that can be broadly applied to several different applications, and various budgets.

Lightening ME with a cut of Ultra Pure White Flat and including a smidgen of Red Oxide was one route.

The addition of Silver Metallic, Clear Glaze, and UPWF as a 'one coater' came next.

Some gains, some losses.

The MississippiMud Top Coat came along as a result of my trying to duplicate or exceed the deservedly acclaimed attributes of Goo Top Coats for less than 1/2 the costs. The "Pure Silver Metallic" undercoating was again something I championed.

Now, work continues along the lines to enhance contrast levels even more, for although the SD/MM Plexi scheme works beyond all expectations, once again, there seems to be just a teeny weeny deficiency in pure black levels when used with a PJ with poor contrast specs. (...under 1000:1)

Why bother trying to have the entire cake and eat it too? because the affordable PJ is the Future of Home Theater, and until a true 16:9 1388x764 HD-DVI- PJ (LCD or DLP) with 2000:1 CR and at least 1200 Lumens comes along for under $2000.00, the majority of entry level Projector heads will continue to demand a screen option that cost less than their X1, Z1, Panny 300, or any of the other PJs out there that suffer from the 'affordable but deficient' syndrome.

They present the most unique and exciting challange, and to effectively solve thier problems is to create an affordable DIY screen option that offers it's advantages to ALL PJ owners at any price point who have an inkling of what it means to get more bang for the buck than can usually ever be expected. No, it's not free (...use your white or cream colored wall for that...) and the best Plexi w/Goo Top Coat AND Spray Equipment cost about 1/2 of the least expensive "Good Quality" Mfg screens out there, but after seeing what lies beneath this post, I think you will at least want to consider the "Painted Wall" or "Painted Board" applications. Or go 'whole hog' and bite on the SD/MM Plexi design and astound yourself and everybody who ever deigns to grace the confines of your Home Theater.

Do you want to know more? Look in Screens for any Thread or Post listed under CMRA. MississippiMan, or Scoob5555, or under the Thread topic below.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=338764&goto=newpost

(Tryg, both forgiveness and thanks in advance for my using (high-jacking? :p ;) :D ) your thread. This latest development will be at the next Screen Shootout in at least three different formats and since your partly to blame for it all, you have to live with the consequences!)


Now. At last. Presenting for your viewing pleasure.........,
........the lovely Nicole.

mississipi man: wow man, nicole looks like frankenstain =(

Originally posted by squighound
Has anyone done any more experimenting on this stuff yet? I'm considering purchasing either the Infocus X1 or the Sharp PG-AX10. With my (extremely) limited budget, a DIY screen seems the way to go. I just finished reading the thread from begining to end, and I'm curious if anyone has found the "ultimate" paint/material combo.

anyone?

anyone?

bueller?

~squighound

X1 is the darling of the $1000 PJ crowd. The only thing is some people
suffer from the DLP rainbow syndrome. It's a fine projector by all accounts
for the money. Built in Faroudja DCDi deinterlacer for 480i material. Good
contrast ratio.

read the FAQ here...

http://members.shaw.ca/technut/x1faq/

I own an A10X LCD and I am pleased with it. Higher res. that the X1. The
A10X is short in the contrast area, but I can live with that.

Plan on light control if you can, ambient light just kills contrast in
dark scenes in movies.

A quick and dirty screen is blackout cloth (you can get it at cloth stores,
ask for "blackout drape lining material"). Stretch and staple over a
DIY frame.

For around $45 you can get a Draper V Screen pulldown. Matte White
2 screws and it's up.

And the old standby a white wall. Can be painted to your hearts desire.

Another projector to look at is the Sanyo Z1 (LCD) with a wide screen
resolution for the LCD panels.

Go to projectorcentral.com they have lots of reviews over there.

b2b

Wow. What an awesome effort. Just read your thread for the first time, Tryg. I really appreciate all the work and effort you've put into this.

Originally posted by m Robinson
"Plus you can sit back and watch the knuckleheads pound their chest about which screen is the best...and laugh at them "

We should probably just close the doors! And the millions spent on automated coating coating equipment, developing advanced substrates with tightly controlled gloss, neutral tinting formulations, characteristics which preserve uniform white field performance, Air and fluid filtration and control, to make every square millimeter uniform? Wasted effort! Heck, use a tarp, paper or masonite, your sedentary neighbors big white arss, anything! Make your own superior screen! Grab a can of Rustoleum silver, or Tremclad, and lap us all, in a couple weeks! Just joking buddy, in keeping with the times. Hardy Har Har! There are plenty of jokers already on this page.
But seriously if you want to use metallic pigments, you won't make anything of any uniformity, worth a monkey's butt, unless it's sprayed, by a robot, with a generously sized conventional spray gun, with a lot of control. And yes it will hotspot, and yes it will color shift, and you'll see stripes at every leading and trailing edge you coated, cause you can't keep it uniformly wet. But you could overcome that if you spent a few hundred grand on pigments, polymers and automated equipment. Of course this depends on your standards and the standards of your customers. And if your planning on staying in business, your customers are who you really listen to, (not self proclaimed internet divas). I suppose I will come in to work tomorrow after all. I've got a couple (thousand) orders to fill. But hey I'm just another knucklehead on the super information hershey highway. Where's my porn links anyway. Oh there they are, See ya!

Mark "Knucklehead" Robinson
Director of Manufacturing
Stewart Filmscreen Corp

Wow!

What an amazingly jumped up employee of stewart screens we have here.

Personally I wouldn't buy one of your screens just based on that little tantrum.

When spraypainting a screen, do you lay it flat on the ground or mount it to a wall? I assume you would lay it flat to avoid paint dripping down the screen?

Originally posted by Gray Davis
When spraypainting a screen, do you lay it flat on the ground or mount it to a wall? I assume you would lay it flat to avoid paint dripping down the screen?

You would be wrong in that assumption.

A. Flat on the ground would encourage the spread of dust particles onto the work.

B. To spray a good coat, one must both keep the Gun at right angles to the surface AND at the proper distance.* This is hard to do when vertical, let alone IMPOSSIBLE to do while flatly horizontal.
*(Many Mfg. Screen Reps. "say" that you need a robot to evenly spray.) :rolleyes:

C. Many paints depend on their "Flow" characteristics to evenly disperse (spread) after application. Gravity plays an assist here. Also, Drips are caused by "Too Much Paint" being applied at a given spot, or WAY to much applied at one time overall.

D. It is next to impossible to judge the quality and evenness of a finish while flat on the ground. You need to have light shine across it on a vertical plane..

So........, stand up straight for the best results.

"So........, stand up straight for the best results."

Thanks, MM!

It seems many people are having trouble spraying an even coat from a rattle-can. This is understandable. Rattle cans suck. Here's a trick I learned in art school: If you want to paint something well you need an HVLP gun. Then you can empty the rattle-can of pressure by holding it upside-down and spraying until the aerosol is gone. Then puncture the can with a nail and drain the paint into your HVLP gun --

jamie

Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but isn't there some risk involved in puncturing an aerosol can? Does spraying it upside down get rid of ALL the aerosol?

Can powder coating be clear?

Yes it can. It can also comes with varying degrees of "gloss". I think they measure it in terms of percentage gloss- like 50%, 60%, 90%, etc... I'm also interested in what effect a flat or satin clear finish might have on the tendency of the silver paints to hot-spot. Eventually I'll get around to shooting a few test boards to find out for myself.

I plan on using Tryg's suggestion for aluminum paint. However, I'm currently looking for alternatives. To some degree, you can control texture buy how far away you hold the can from your spray surface. If you're using a compressor/gun setup I think you can just make the mixture a little dry if you want more of a textured surface.

It is desirable to get high-solids paints when possible. That alone should give you more consistent coverage within the bounds of adequate technique.

Here's an example of a good high-solids paint in a spray can:

Silver high-solids paint (http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog.jsp?&SKU=20229)

As well, some auto paint suppliers can sell you a can of automotive paint in a self-contained spray can. It's kind of expensivish, (about $20/can), but for test purposes it might be the ticket.

If you go to a automotive paint supply store with knowledgeable staff, they can tell which paints will give you the best coverage. Have you ever wondered why some cans of paint weigh more? Believe me, there is a difference in paint quality. Auto paint should give you better and more controllable results. The only problem is it needs to be professionally applied for best results.

Good stuff Tryg.

Gray Davis,

Yes, there is a bit of risk in puncturing an aerosol can. I suggest eye protection.

-jamie

I hate to admit it, but I do use a rattle can for projects more than I use my HPLV gun. I'm lazy mostly. I do brake out the gun when I need professional results.

As far as puncturing the can...I'd use a bazooka ;) no eye protection necessary.

I am interested in a two projector system to do 3-d using polarizing filters.
I've heard silver screen preserve polarization, while white screens do not.
How well does silver or aluminum paints preserve polarization? Obviously a can of spray paint is cheaper than an expensive silverized screen.

I've never experimented with this, or 3d, but I'd love to give it a try!

Tryg & Group,

I have now built 2 DIY screens. The first was temporary as I know I was going to get a new projector (had an OLD NVIEW LUMINATOR 480X640) so I just wanted to get something to view. I purchased a 96X48 1/4" fiber board at home depot with white melamine on one side. I figured at least I can watch a movie just by hanging it on the wall. It worked surprisingly well. I then painted it ultra white, and eventually with industrial aluminum. I must say I really liked the aluminum paint as it seemed to have more contrast and was definitely brighter.

I then move and find a home where I have a perfect room for home theater. Purchase a Panasonic L500U and paint a 10 foot by 6 foot 2 inch screen right on the wall. I went directly to the aluminum paint as I had such great results before. It was still bright, but I could hardly stand to watch the movie as the flaws in the wall stood out something terrible, where I hadn't really noticed before painting over the off white standard wall paint. I then patched what needed and sanded the entire screen area texture smooth. Then primed with KILLS paint and then used an ultra white with 4 or 5 coats. The screen has no flaws that I can detect and all is well... I have not re-painted with the aluminum as it was such a bear to cover with white. So I thought I'd let the paint (and my wife's feelings on the constant construction) cure for a while. I like the brightness and contrast of the silver but what if there are flaws that show up....

I bring this up as a reply to the 3-D message as I believe part of the reason the flaws show SO BAD with the silver will actually help you with the 3-D projection. So if you have a perfect screen to start with the silver is the way to go IMHO!

Rob

You ARE the God of Screens!!!
Thanks, 29 times over, from the top of my HT heart!

Thanks ED. I'm glad it helped you

I'm in agreement with Ed. This is a GREAT post. Thought I would bump it back to the first page (a must read for any DIYers)!

This forum is fantastic. Kudos to all the pioneers who have spent countless hours trying to find the perfect DIY screen formula. Lewis and Clark never worked so hard.

I am a DIY'er to the max. I am surprised that I haven't started generating my own electricity yet. Through all these projects I have found that many times much energy was spent and wasted when a much easier option was available.

Considering the effort and expense in creating a painted screen, particularly noting the number of failures encountered in this forum, a simpler solution may be more desirable.

I can't take credit for this idea. I saw it posted elsewhere. To me, it seems like the best DIY option WITH LITTLE CHANCE OF FAILURE.



Cousins video (on the web)sells Cut-To-Size Screen Surface x Dalite HC Cinema Vision at $4.99 a square foot. Black backing adds $.50 a sq.ft. They will also add a black border. That is around $200 for a 100" diagonal screen.Build yourself a frame, mount this High contrast 1.1 gain screen on it and you might well get yourself
1)a better screen
2)for less money
3)for much less hassle
4)and MUCH less grief from the estrogen producer who can't pull her car into the garage/spray booth for weeks.

It may not be a Firehawk but I don't drive a Ferrari either. The ultimate goal for all of us is VALUE. This seems to offer the best value.

Please respond. If I have erred I would like to know before I proceed down this road.

JackStraw3295,

You seem to be focused on the negative results, and very little concerned with the positives. If the DaLite HC option was so terrific, you'd think everyone would have gone that route. They haven't. BTW, it is NOT 1.1 gain. More like .85

Face it, they WANT your business, so they will say just about anything.

It is merely a easier option, not necessarily a good or best one.

Your PJ's performance, the room's characteristics, and your own expectations come into play in any decision, and unless your experience is more extensive that your post would seem to indicate, you should proceed with at least some caution. Post your PJ's specs, your rooms environment, and such, on your own thread in DIY Screens, and make your decision at least somewhat based on the responses and ideas your receive.

Failure comes the quickest to those who are impatient, or feel that they have nothing to learn from others' experience. In my time on AVS, I've seen that those who steadfastly followed sage advice and specific instructions to the letter have seldom failed. Those who have bastardized methods, cut corners on required materials, or experimented with known values just to put their own stamp on a project are the ones who complain loudest when things go awry. It's never their fault. Well, some do admit it...and go on to achieve success.

Your job of perusing though countless posts on enumerable threads can be far easier by enlisting the aid of those such as Tryg, myself, and several others. Despite my fondness for my own preferences, I've seldom given anything more than broad based advice, then let the Poster decide his own course. Most everyone else usually follows the same route.

So let us help, if we can. Don't settle for "So So" results with a big screen or you'll be condemned to a "SO SO' experience.

In any event, good luck!

Without question your formula in the hands of someone adept at HPLV
paint spraying is the Platinum DYI option. The same formula in the hands of a less skillful painter may wind up of lower quality than than a DYI project made of a pre-made screen material. I've screwed up enough projects over time to be willing to accept the 85% option if it is guaranteed. The question is, what is the best substrate on the market? Is Da-Lite HC Cinema Vision really only a mediocre product? So many say that it is the next best thing to Firehawk albeit many steps lower. Any opinions?
Unfortunately, I have no place to view any screens where I live.

I should note that my HT has no windows and therefore no ambient light. Is a grey screen still indicated for this type of environment? White? Silver?

White's never a bad option. Maybe with your Z2 a touch of grey is OK but when ordering Da-Lite material there is no 'touch of HCCV' option.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/home_theater_screens.htm

You're still building your frame, stretching your material, masking and dealing with Cousins if you find any screen flaws so IMO at a price of $250 the cost and hassle are not winning points.

You were saying they add a black border. Don't you have to get enough material so as to be able to wrap a few inches around your frame? Does the border come separate like a tape? With the front border, frame thickness and backside stapling you could do with maybe and extra foot for both height and width ( 70 bucks ) of what you want your viewing area to be. I have no experience here but this could be a consideration before you buy.

A good thing with BO material is you start off white and then if you feel like checking out a light grey scheme you experiment with painting it at no big loss. You get to know what your individual preferences are without commiting upfront. I daresay you won't be painting your HCCW to check out other colors. Once you really know what you want for your eyes in your setup committing to a more expensive material is easier. And you will already have a frame built, which after several months of watching different sources may change your mind on the size of screen you want.

Hi, Everyone in the states, you are so lucky to even have the option of purchasing Dalite and
Firehawk screen material.
I live in Melbourne Australia and I can not purchase any of the screen materials you have access to!!!!
I have to DIY or pay $2500 AUD ($1750 USD)for a 100inch HCMW!!!!!
Ridiculous pricing!!!
A 100 inch Stewart Firehawk is a total rip at $4500 AUD ($3150 USD)!!!!!

I have enlisted the help of my local cabinetmaker to ensure a frame of suitable strength and 'flatness'.
We will use the flywire noodles to hold the screen material tight.
A cabinetmaker has all the right machining tools for making an awesome frame and will only charge approx $200 AUD to make one, includes materials.

I am going to try blockout material first but I also have access to synthetic films at work and have been thinking about trying matt polyethylene, matt polyester, matt polypropylene or matt PVC.
Has anyone else tried these synthetic films?
They come with lovely matt surfaces.....
Interested to hear peoples thoughts.

Thanks you guys!

J

Originally posted by ender611
White's never a bad option. Maybe with your Z2 a touch of grey is OK but when ordering Da-Lite material there is no 'touch of HCCV' option.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/home_theater_screens.htm

You're still building your frame, stretching your material, masking and dealing with Cousins if you find any screen flaws so IMO at a price of $250 the cost and hassle are not winning points.

You were saying they add a black border. Don't you have to get enough material so as to be able to wrap a few inches around your frame? Does the border come separate like a tape? With the front border, frame thickness and backside stapling you could do with maybe and extra foot for both height and width ( 70 bucks ) of what you want your viewing area to be. I have no experience here but this could be a consideration before you buy.

A good thing with BO material is you start off white and then if you feel like checking out a light grey scheme you experiment with painting it at no big loss. You get to know what your individual preferences are without commiting upfront. I daresay you won't be painting your HCCW to check out other colors. Once you really know what you want for your eyes in your setup committing to a more expensive material is easier. And you will already have a frame built, which after several months of watching different sources may change your mind on the size of screen you want.

Actually you just order it in a lace and grommet and it automatically comes with the 2" black border and specify that you want it with the snap studs installed and it is the same price... Just ask your dealer to request the other side of the stud... screw them into your frame allowing for the stretch which your dealer will be able to give you specs for depending on the size and that is all you need..

As far as spraying ... nothing beats a machine controlled spray for getting an even coat... DaLite coats the material in one pass... and then heated and repassed and reheated.. hard to beat ...
Stewart makes their own resins..

Does anyone have a working link to the Design Guide listed in Tryg's excellent OP?

A search of the thread under "Design Guide" didn't reveal it... TIA

Found this via google.

http://www.diyprojectiontv.com/Screen_Guide-72.pdf

Great find! I looked for it again but couldn't find it. I'll update the original post

I had the link on this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=537625

Tryg,
How can these findings be re-interpreted for us CRT owners?
Would the same best of breed prevail with the difference in equipment?


Doktor_Ssyko,
I wish I could talk intelligently about CRT, but I dont, and have never had one. I know some people achieve superb results with Vutec's 13.2 gain curved silver based screens.
I would imagine any surface sheen would result in color shift with any of these products.


Tryg, this is on the first page of this thread.

I own a CRT, and I have not heard of the Vutec 13.2 gain curved silver

Can you give me more information on this, or do you know a superior solution for CRT projectors?

I've been researching Torus as a solution, but if you have something out there you know is better, I'd be interested.

Thanks,

Eric

Another worthy thread that's a good read. It's an oldie but goodie and has no business being on page three.

First off, I want to thank Tryg (and everyone else for that matter) for all the great info. After looking at some of the information here, I'd like to try out #27, the Rust-Oleum Metallic Finish "Aluminum". Just to make sure I'm getting the right thing... the only Aluminum color spray paint by Rust-Oleum that I see is #7715 and classified as a "Bright Coat Metallic Finish." Is that the correct paint?

What seems to give the best overall result from a canvas standpoint? I haven't seen any direct comparisons detailing differences in the material only (same picture, lighting, projector, etc.) Tryg started to go down that path here when he put #27 on the 3 different surfaces. I'm obviously a new guy, but I've been trying to research all that I can and appreciate any input.

Welcome to AVS. 7715 is the correct paint. A search for 7715 will provide some info. I suggest you click on the 1st link in my sig and take a look at my "Ever After" shot in my gallery.

First off, I want to thank Tryg (and everyone else for that matter) for all the great info..


Your welcome! Sorry, I haven't been doing a very good job of monitoring this thread :(

Tryg you may want to check out the CRT Forum
They are working on a couple concepts including mylar torus and aluminum torus

Tryg,
Great FYI in DIY!!
Your thoughts on plain ole Parkland, with (ho-hum), no paint?

BTW, you HAVE to start a PowerBuy on that lab coat, specs and tie,
I have to have that in my wardrobe!
I will gain new respect in that look!

I love how all the screen people tell you, that a screen is so much better than a DIY kit because of all the beautiful R&D they did and how you can't ever match the uniformity of the screen material.

Well you'd have to be an idiot to not understand that.

However, my projector is $1000, they need to understand that spending $800-$2000 on a screen is a complete waste of money.

Take some of that R&D and make an affordable product for the average customers.

Come back and let us know how you had to open 2 more facilities to keep up with orders.

I feel your pain. But the comment about being an idiot?

That doesn't show much knowledge about how far some have taken the DIY ideal on this specific Forum your posting on.

The 140" Light Fusion linked to below is doing what no other Mfg Screen it's size can aspire to do:

Deliver a stunningly brilliant image at almost 12' diagonal
Exhibit NO view Cone issue AT ALL.
Offer up and deliver better ambient light performance than any such size screen Mfg.
(Only a Mfg Black Screen can top it 'ambient -wise' but will NOT give you the same image quality, it will restrict your veiwing area, and cost you more than a used car!)

It can be made for under $300.00 at that extreme size. Less for smaller sizes.

Of course, the spray gear is necessasry, but that stuff can be rented. Even purchased, at $7-800.00 totalfor 140" of Mfg Screen Killin' power, you cannot go wrong! Afterwards, Pimp Your Car with a new paint job!

But Painted Mirrors are not the only answer. Many here have developed DIY applications that turn Wall surfaces or Boards into Screens that easily top any sub-$1000 Mfg Screen, and more than a few + $1000.00 Mfg. Screens as well.

How appropriate it is to mention this on Tryg's thread? Well, I read his Threads before & during my own developement of SM/MM and Light Fusion applications, and the ideas, opinions and suggestions carried much wieght in my decision making processes. I did not agree with everything, and some things I tried despite being warned against, but the who gest of it was that the info gleaned did far mor good than harm.

Wanna sub $700 Screen that can do these things? Click on some threads and start reading.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6296804&&#post6296804

Would the Rust-oleum work best for a 100"+ diag with a Sanyo Z3 in a dedicated HT room w/full light control?

I would like to build my own solid screen using the Rust-oleum paint. What do you use for material to paint? I saw a FAQ on how to build your own frame and might try to find that again and use that for the frame.

In case you can't tell I'm new to the front projector arena and am trying to get all my ducks in a row here. Thanks so much for your in depth write ups.

Going with a high gain Aluminum screen I would suggest you use a Toric Screen if you decide to use aluminum paint. Otherwise you will have a lot of hot spotting on the screen.
I have plans to do a similar screen.

Darin

Well, I stumbled across this thread back in December when I first got my projector, and I'd always wanted to give the Rustoleum Aluminum screen a shot.

Well, I finally got the chance tonight to test out a couple of sample panels sprayed with the metallic aluminum paint, and from what I've seen it has great on-axis performance, but... holy narrow viewing cones!

Anything over about 20 degrees off-axis and the picture gets really, really dark... I guess that's the sacrifice you make for getting all that gain. In fact, off-axis viewing is so bad that I decided to stick with my current screen after just experimenting a bit.

My current screen is Behr UPW base with a mix of Behr Crystal Clear Water-based Matte and WOP topcoat, and it's about 1.1 to 1.2 gain on-axis, and goes to .9 to 1.0 gain off-axis (about 30-45 degrees). For example, I can tape a piece of ultra-brite laser printer paper on the screen, and when viewing the screen on-axis, you can definitely see that the piece of paper is duller than the screen, but as you travel off-axis the paper blends into the screen until you can't tell where the paper stops and the screen starts.

So, anybody considering an aluminum screen should keep this in mind... if you sit withing 10 degrees off-axis you should be alright, but if you have a standard living room where the viewing area ranges anywhere from 30-45 degrees off-axis, you should probably go with a lower-gain screen.

Here (http://gallery.avsforum.com/showphoto.php/photo/14515/cat/500/ppuser/41390) is a link to my review of Rustoleum Aluminum.

Well, I stumbled across this thread back in December when I first got my projector, and I'd always wanted to give the Rustoleum Aluminum screen a shot.

Well, I finally got the chance tonight to test out a couple of sample panels sprayed with the metallic aluminum paint, and from what I've seen it has great on-axis performance, but... holy narrow viewing cones!

So, anybody considering an aluminum screen should keep this in mind... if you sit withing 10 degrees off-axis you should be alright, but if you have a standard living room where the viewing area ranges anywhere from 30-45 degrees off-axis, you should probably go with a lower-gain screen.

Yes, the viewing cone issue (...and Hot Spotting in most cases...) is a well known phenomena of High Silver content and Aluminum based screens. It can however be mitigated by the addition of a pure white base (Behr UPW Flat) to "thin" those screen application's retro-reflective tendencies a bit. And/Or you can "Top Coat" them with a Flat or Satin, Water based Polyurethane mixed 7:1 with the paint used for the Base Coat, applying such with a tight, Foam Trim Roller. This has a slight "dulling" effect, and the additional layering helps scatter reflective light more "off axis" to help increase both the viewing cone as well as even out the uniformity issues somewhat.

MM, oil and water don't mix. You should know RA is NOT latex, takes forever to cure, and reeks for weeks until it does.

Well guess again. The 140" diagonal RS_MaxxMud screen I did up for last October's Home Show was inadvertantly done with "Oil Based" MinWax added into the Latex mix instead of the Water Based, and it worked just fine. (..I never related that on here...to embarrased I guess...) And that stuff wound up in a "throughly mixed" state. A "Water Based" MinWax coating should have no problems accepting a small amount of suchOil Based Aluminum paint. It just would have to be stirred well every time before loading it into a Gun's cup. Nor should the Oil Based MinWax version have any problems as well, of course.

I would not suggest however that rolling such a Water/Oil mixture would be advisable.

It was all pretty much a surprise to me to see the "Oil Based" denotation on the Cans I bought AFTER I had already mixed it into a 4 gallon mixture. No turning back after that, and I continued to use that mix on at least 4-5 subsiquent screens.

Now will I staunchly reccomend such be done by others due to my lucky/unfortunate occurence? No way! For it would sure to wind up causing others who did so the misfortunes I somehow avoided. But in reverse I'd say that "anything is possible" if you try, but nothing is possible if you don't.

You should know that, Mr. "I tried a Glass Mirror first" Man!

CMRA
They don't have to mix you can topcoat oil with latex bases urethanes no prob. Next day topcoat is ok as well .
That is if that is the way you want to go
I am not saying I would do that, I would mix a clear in the mix


For newbies or people who haven't read this thread ,start from the beginning the first pages have some good info .

Bruce

Thanks for the link 1Time. That's pretty much what I saw as well, from what I could gather with my small sample.

And thanks for the tips MM... I may play around a bit more with the Aluminum to see what I can do. One question, have you ever tried using the Behr Silver Metallic that's found next to the WOP on the shelf? I was eyeballing that, but didn't want to just blindly try it without some sort of background info on what I was going into.

Right now I'm pretty pleased with my current screen paired with my X1 projector, but with the smallish lumen output (about 500) I'm always looking for something that'll bump up the gain a bit more, yet not sacrifice off-axis viewing for the most part (I realize it's a trade-off). The primary reason being that I don't have a completely light controlled room, so during the afternoon screen viewing becomes nearly impossible.

Thanks again for all your input.

And thanks for the tips MM... I may play around a bit more with the Aluminum to see what I can do. One question, have you ever tried using the Behr Silver Metallic that's found next to the WOP on the shelf? I was eyeballing that, but didn't want to just blindly try it without some sort of background info on what I was going into.

Thanks again for all your input.

The highlighted question is one that I'm suire brings a chuckle to those who know my history.

Silver Metallic/MississippiMud screens were for a time, one of the standards on this Forum for getting better Blacks and a 3-d like image. Behr SM was the cheif component. In fact the ONLY component of the base coat. SM was, and still is a bugger to apply evely. It's way to viscous, and doesn't take well to thinning. You think people have trouble with roller marks with Goo and other such semi-gloss paints? The history of SM/MM is littered with the failures of poor rolling jobs, and it wasn't always the skills of the "roller" to blame.

But "nailed", SM/MM was a great DIY application. The resulting switch to spraying SM onto Clear Plexi on one side, then MMud on the other, led to the use of a Mirror instead of SM, and that led to......*

As a replacement for the Aluminum itself, it would render a far more attenuated image, yet still exhibit a restricted viewing cone. Not as much as the Aluminum, but enough to matter to many.

Slightly attenuating the Aluminum and scattering the reflected light will be the most likely successfull routes to take to solve the issues you have encountered. To lose all the brightness that Aluminum provides would be a shame, and I feel that every effort should be made to mitigate it's issues before switching to another route that uses a paint with far less reflectivity.

for those who don't know... if the reflectivity of rustoleum aluminum 7715 is what you are after...

rustoleum makes a silver latex paint (yes, non-oil based) that has 95% of that reflectivity.

MM... doh! I should've known... LOL. ;)

And to think that I've probably read Behr SM several times in threads around here, yet never put 2 & 2 together to make 4. :D

Thanks for the insight... it looks like I'll stick with the aluminum experimintation for the time being. I wonder how it would do with a light topcoat of WOP... enough to be translucent, yet also give some side reflectivity. I think I'll try that next.

Thanks for the heads-up pb_maxxx... next time I'm at HD I'll have to look for it. It certainly would make spraying/mixing/thinning a lot easier.

You need to do either a very thin, almost completely transparent coating that has "Flattening" effect. That would be the 7:1 mixture. Or, Try a very thin coating of a Flat Silver Grey that's as close as possible to the same shade the Aluminum is.

Good luck.

Yeah, if you must know, I AM bumping Tryg's thread. I hate to see efforts like this go unnoticed or lost to the archives. I hope you newbies take the time to learn what this member has done for you.

Very interesting thread. I stumbled onto this after I bought a piece of foam board just for fun. I don't have a screen yet so foam board was a (very small) step up for me. Got a $8 piece that measures ~68" diagonal. It's not shiny foam board...it's a big piece from the framing dept at my local arts and crafts store (Michael's). It's matte white with a very fine textured surface. To my surprise it works very well! After reading this thread I'm considering spray painting the front with MFA and doing the back in flat black (light leaks through the other side). Just wondering how I'm going to get an even coat of spray paint over a 68" screen. FYI - I'm using it with an IF 4805.

Ain't gonna Bump No Mo wit no Big Fat Woman!


..but a valuable thread? Most assuredly. It helped get me started.

Touche' :cool:

Tryg,

As usual, thank you for your great work! Can I make a request for an acoustical screen shootout at some point?

Shake1

I'm going to be experimenting with a DIY screen fairly soon. I have a few ideas to try to minimize the rustoleum's hot spotting. For one I'm going to try painting dirrent grades of sandpaper for texture comparison and also some porous materials. My main experiment this time around will be with the surface the piant is applied to. Then maybe I'll get some other paints and try them on my best surfaces. I'll let the forum know how it turns out.

Welcome to the forum, KeAz! Texture is something that has been neglected here, and it has a definite effect on image quality. It's hard to control, but if you can, it will do wonders for hotspotting. I'll be looking for your post.

Garry

This is an interesting topic because from day one the mantra is 'smooth as glass'.

I hate to sound corny with the tired saying "The only dumb question is the one that isn't asked..." but that is profoundly true.
Behr and Ralph Lauren both have textured paints, I never bothered looking at any of the colors because like I said the mantra is 'smoooth'... I know they have it because I used Sand Stone to make a custom column post bed, and it definitely has a texture that's for sure.

Has anyone played around with any of these and a top coat?

Tryg, you simply are not doing enough to keep your masterpiece at the forefront where it belongs. Must be all the 1080p/SXRD excitement.

This is an outstanding review of a lot of screens in one space.

1time has some excellent DIY comparisons that he did as well.

Few weeks ago, I painted a small white board with Rustoleum Metallic Matte Nickle. Initially, the viewing cone was small, but about 10 days later, it expanded significantly.

All I can say is, this thing has great potential. I did the painting at night in a hurry which caused exessive deposits of paint in certain sports which manifested itself in the pics.

Rustoleum Metallic Matte Nickle (top) and DW (bottom):
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l57/Adi_2007/wilsonart/waterfalls_1.jpg
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l57/Adi_2007/wilsonart/weeds.jpg
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l57/Adi_2007/wilsonart/underwater.jpg

I decided to build a screen using the Rust-o-lium Metalic Aluminum over melemine wall board. I had used the cans on a sample and it came out great.

OK so I tried to use cans on the full size peice and well as expected that didn't work. I got a normal paint can of it and tried to roll it and well that didn't work either. So I went to HF and got the $26 gun kit with the gravity feed HVLP sprayer since my old sprayer has been dead for some time and wasn't going to clean up and work again no matter what I did. The HVLP gun sprayed great and besides some defects in the board itself and some dirt from the rolling (my wife did it on the ground and all kinds of crap blew onto it) the coating was perfect. It's up on the wall now and you really can't see the defects at all but I may do another screen at some point just to see if I can do better.

So results with my x1a celing mounted in a room with lots of light. Well compaired to the BOC I had before it's night and day difference. It's brighter, the colors are way better, the blacks are much darker and overall it looks better. I do have a slight hot spot but my wife says she doesn't see it. During the day you can actually see what is on the screen instead of it being washed out like it was with the BOC. The viewing cone well it is narrow however in the furthest location off center it's still better than the BOC was on center.

I am going to see if anything changes as the paint cures but so far I am impressed. I think if I do paint another screen I am going to try to put some mat poly over it to see if that will kill the hot spot. I would say for anyone who is going to try this that it might make some sense to roll some gray on the board first as a primer then cover it with the metalic but even straight over the white melemine might be good. It's hard to say because I have such a thick coating now with the cans, rolling and then spraying that I don't know how much paint is really on there.

This screen is not the answer to all problems but for my situation where I watch more DirecTV and non-HD at that, then movies and it's the only TV we have in the living room, that brightness and contrast is the most important thing to me right now.

Has anyone been able to replicate what Vutec does?

Hi Tryg,

Yes. There is a example of a DIY Screen that comes very close to the Silver Star on many aspects of performance. The S-I-L-V-E-R application originally brought forth by CMRA, and adapted slightly by me does that quite well, and with it being spray applied to almost any smooth, white primed surface, not a Mirror.

And size limitations? None there! I recently did a 225" diagonal 2.35:1 example.

You can see it at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=854134

Hi Tryg,

Yes. There is a example of a DIY Screen that comes very close to the Silver Star on many aspects of performance. The S-I-L-V-E-R application originally brought forth by CMRA, and adapted slightly by me does that quite well, and with it being spray applied to almost any smooth, white primed surface, not a Mirror.

And size limitations? None there! I recently did a 225" diagonal 2.35:1 example.

You can see it at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=854134

Have you tested this mix yet? If not, making a claim like that is misleading. I highly doubt that the new SILVER mix has the gain of the Vutec.

This wonderful thread needs a facelift. Which once was a defacto standard screen primer has fallen behind.

Alot of innovation has taken place since 2003, on both sides. From the DNP Supernova to the many DIY offerings.

Giddy-up pardner, time for an UPDATE.

Yeah Tryg, you need to go to Home Depot, spend a few hundred bucks on latex paint, get out the filtering mask put on some gloves, spend 200+ man hours mixing up a seemingly endless number of "forumulas" using a burette (after you calculate how to proportion them so that you don't end up with a gallon of the stuff) paint them on a substrate - in some cases an exotic substrate, and then hang them on the wall and redo your review.

C'mon man! :D

Make sure you throw in some Georgia Grease G2 UltraMax 3000 ;)
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=643136

In all seriousness - I would LOVE to hear an objective opinion regarding the results of said review with say .... a piece of blackout cloth, and a flat painted wall, and maybe some of the other usual suspects thrown in for comparison.

If your opinion wasn't positive I'm sure no one would state that you must have mixed things wrong or applied it incorrectly. Would they?

I'll do another review someday on DIY but you get bombarded by 100 people a day asking what you know :)

I couldn't hack it! :D

bump