Samsung DLP -N- series tweaks thread [Text View] - Page 2

Supertoyz

10-01-03, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by jb510
First on green push -
Has anyone considered that the green "push" might be due to the color wheel sync timing being off rather than the gain being off?
Someone started talking about green contaminating the blue it got me thinking...

FYI, there is some discussion the color wheel sync timing relative to achieving proper red tone somewhere else in this forum...

Second on SM tweaks in general -
Are people out there actually just copying the service menu settings other people have come up with? Let me say as calmly as possibly THIS IS INSANE. The whole point of tweaking SM settings is because manufacturing differences make every set unique... Too unique for the factory to spend the time getting it ?perfect?. Every set therefore needs different tweaking to optimize it after it gets to YOUR viewing location. The only way to tweak any set properly (aside from professional calibration) is to get Avia/VE/DVE and run through the whole thing on your own in your own viewing enviorment. Blindly copying other people?s SM settings is as likely to get you a worse picture as a better one. If your not using a calibration disk stay out of the service menu, just adjust the picutre/color/sharpness/brightness and be happy.

Jon

You are both right and wrong....the green push is not likely to be caused by the delay timing unless its WAY off, it's designed into the color decoding. Makes grass look greener for all of you sportsfans.

Now about copying SM values, You are correct that the only way to get results optimized for you setup is to get an in home calibration that will take into account your particular unit and all of it's connected components characteristics. However I think you are exaggerating the uniqueness of each TV. Yes they will all have slightly different tolerances but they will be minor. I haven't looked too closely at anybody else's defaults but I'd be willing to bet the range is less than 2-3% between similar units.

The other point is that Samsung doesn't necessarily have ISF standards in mind when they are setting up your defaults, nobody involved with building these TV's are ISF trained or certified......they are likely aiming at the other manufacturers and making the DLP "look" good in a showroom. They are looking for flash not accuracy. So what some of the tweaks are doing is taking it from showroom flash and making it more accurate. I'm positive if you take the ISF calibrated settings from a TV and copy them to another of the same model and firmware that you would be closer to accurate than your default settings (which on the v214 is pretty close anyway), or trying to do it by eye. However, once the settings are copied you should then tweak your user settings as you suggested using Avia or VE / DVE to suite your taste and particular setup..........no it's not perfect, but it's as close as anybody will get without their own in home ISF calibration. Sharing SM values across models and firmware versions is more questionable.

rmostad

10-01-03, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by BKanter
RE: adjusting RGB and my totally subjective approach..
First: WRITE DOWN THE ORIGINAL SETTINGS!

The R-gain controls red intensity, G-Gain for green, and B-gain for blue.
Write down the original settings, then adjust away until it looks right!
Want less green, turn down the G-gain...
Best done with flesh tones on the screen and easiest done with a still picture like a paused DVD.

Thanks,

But... by the time I have removed the green from the blue area by adjusting green gain and offset then green is way out of wack.

Also wouldn't the adjustment come before the separate RGB settings?

Do the RGB gain/offset pairs even interact with one another?

By interact I mean are these settings part of the colour decoder or is that another setting?

It's as if the decoding of the colour signal is not occurring correctly. It is as if part of the blue signal is being interpreted as green.

I will give a try at adjusting the delay but wouldn't that cause the corruption of red as well (which I am not seeing.)

Is this something that an ISF calibration would fix? I am assuming it would. I am planing on having the set calibrated but in the mean time I would like to get rid of the excess green.

Thanks again

rmostad

10-01-03, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by Supertoyz
You are both right and wrong....the green push is not likely to be caused by the delay timing unless its WAY off, it's designed into the color decoding. Makes grass look greener for all of you sportsfans.

I tried adjusting the delay and, as I had expected, it is not the problem. Okay so the green push is designed into the decoding.

Is there any way of fixing it in the SM?

And if there is what settings would I change and do these settings relate to one another?

That is if I adjust one I may need to go back and adjust another. At the moment I am not looking for perfection, just something to hold me over until the set gets calibrated.

Thanks.

ikethepug

10-01-03, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by DustynW
I have had my 567 for a week now. At first I really wasn't happy with the color tones.....a lot of clay faces, some rainbow colors in faces or bright white areas.

I have not seen any internal reflection issues.

I performed some service menu adjustments recommended by Docdvd, and now I am very happy with everything. No more clay faces, have not noticed the faint rainbow colors anymore either. I would recommend contacting him if you are having problems getting the picture the way you feel it should be.

DVD's are great, HD through DirecTV has been excellent, as well as OTA HD from my three local networks.

Dustyn

Dustyn,

Have you noticed your picture becoming darker after changing the SM settings. My satellite/HD reception through DVI is great but my S-Video became very dark. Is the gamma setting reduction to blame? Please elaborate on the changes you've experienced. Thanks.

Tom

DustynW

10-01-03, 04:05 PM

Tom....

I am not actually using any hook up with S-Video currently, so I can't comment on that connection. I have the SIR-TS160 connected with DVI, set at 720P, and a Panasonic DVD set on 480i connected to Component 1.

My old VCR is just connected to Video 1 with composite cables.

I don't understand all of the service menu settings, I just followed Josh Lehman's (Docdvd) recommendations. The combination of changes that he recommended made a dramatic improvement, though I am sure it could be made even better with someone personally calibrating the set.

I would not say that anything (DVI, DVD or Video 1) appeared darker after making the adjustments. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

Dustyn

Sea Ray

10-05-03, 11:07 PM

There has been a lot of talk on these pages about professional calibrations and I'd like to discuss this a bit. I recently had a service call from a company who was referred to me by both Samsung and Best Buy (extended warranty). The guy they sent out knew less about the set than I did. I honestly don't think he knew how to get into the service menu and gave me a puzzled look when I mentioned Gamma settings. His idea of calibrating it was to go down to custom picture settings and fiddle with the customer adjustments. He told me a SM calibration was not indicated if when you take the color setting all the way to zero, your picture goes to total black and white. (No doubt idiot, zero color means no color.) He had a hard time understanding that I had analog, digital and (a few) HD stations on my cable package. He seemed to think if it wasn't HD it was analog. He had no idea that there was no tint adjustment on the component inputs. He insisted my problem was that I didn't use Radio Shack Gold series cables. He really didn't know what used or how much cable I was running nor did he check my signal strength.

The technology on these things is changing so fast even us "techies" are challenged to keep up. The stuff written on this board 6 mos ago is already outdated. What makes you think that service guy you're about to pay $200 is really qualified to calibrate your set? And isn't a calibration in the eye of the beholder? Seems to me that our pictures change station to station, show to show even commercial to commercial so is there such thing as a calibrated set?

I think we need to learn as much as we can to tweak these things ourselves 'cause no one is waiting out there to do it for us.

Sea Ray

10-05-03, 11:10 PM

I see where some have recommended a Gamma setting of 0. As I toggle up and down on my gamma settings, zero is not offered. It just goes from 1 to 5. Do I need to do something else to reach 0 like hit the numeral 0?

Sea Ray

10-05-03, 11:15 PM

Originally posted by mike_pro
Under the service menu DDP1010 you can use the POS-X and POS-Y to center your image and even out the overscan all around.

I see overscan on analog and most digital stations while on component inputs but my HD picture is sharp. Do you recommend I play with these adjustments in order to sharpen those pictures or am I likely to screw up my HD picture if I try to improve lesser signals?

Clamhead

10-06-03, 08:51 AM

Re: SeaRay's comments on "Pro" calibration.
My own personal struggle has been whether or not to justify the cost of having this done for the following reasons:

1. DVD thru D1 (DVI output) is great. Used Avia and am perfectly happy.

2. However, I am hooked up to DishTV (S-video) with just plain old SD channels, no HD or anything. It seems as though each channel needs it's own settings because once I get one channel looking good (referencing the settings from the DVI input & going from there), other channels look horrible. Faces on one look nice and normal, and on another look pink. It's driving me nuts to try and find a compromise setting that works well for all channels without constantly fiddling with the user menu every time I sit down to watch. I think I'm getting close though, as I am satisfied with about 90% of the channels. I tend to use Discovery and The Food Channel as my "reference" channels for settings due their typically high content of color and detail imagery. Wondering whether a Pro Calibration would give me the final push I am looking for, but SeaRay's comments echo some concerns I have had in getting an experienced person.

GL

Sea Ray

10-06-03, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by Clamhead
Re: SeaRay's comments on "Pro" calibration.
I think I'm getting close though, as I am satisfied with about 90% of the channels. I tend to use Discovery and The Food Channel as my "reference" channels for settings due their typically high content of color and detail imagery. Wondering whether a Pro Calibration would give me the final push I am looking for

GL

If you're satisfied with 90% of the channels, I'd say you're doing pretty well. I tend to use CNN Headline News as a reference. You need a good, strong analog signal to work with and a variety of colors. I would recommend using a component input for the satellite box rather than S-video.

johnevo

10-06-03, 09:59 AM

I have the same issues with different channels on my digital cable (Time Warner). Usually if I don't like how it looks via the component video, I switch over to S-Video (I have the cable box hooked up both ways). I generally find the video tolerable under 1 of the 2 inputs.

DLP-Watcher

10-06-03, 10:10 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Clamhead
[B]Re: SeaRay's comments on "Pro" calibration.
My own personal struggle has been whether or not to justify the cost of having this done for the following reasons:

1. DVD thru D1 (DVI output) is great. Used Avia and am perfectly happy.

2. However, I am hooked up to DishTV (S-video) with just plain old SD channels, no HD or anything. It seems as though each channel needs it's own settings because once I get one channel looking good (referencing the settings from the DVI input & going from there), other channels look horrible. Faces on one look nice and normal, and on another look pink. It's driving me nuts to try and find a compromise setting that works well for all channels without constantly fiddling with the user menu every time I sit down to watch.
===============
I have same issue with SD Dish Network. I thought I had most common channels set correctly, but this morning they are back to same. I can't get those white/black settings correctly.... foexamples "CCN Headline News" whould not be clear at all at the bottom of the screen. CNBC tickers would come fussy.... I have dish network receiver hooked up with S-Video and Video 1. Is this a right setting?

DLP-Watcher

10-06-03, 10:14 AM

Sea Ray ---
Also Dish Receiver has picture setting that you need to change from 4x3 to 16x9. When I got my new hln last week, I did not realize it for fist couple of days... but when I changed it .... it made the difference.

Sea Ray

10-06-03, 11:15 AM

for examples "CCN Headline News" whould not be clear at all at the bottom of the screen. CNBC tickers would come fussy.... I have dish network receiver hooked up with S-Video and Video 1. Is this a right setting? [/B][/QUOTE]

I have a little different setup. I'm using Time Warner and have a Pioneer setup box. I have the ANT A input setup with just the cable wire bypassing the box altogether. This gives me access to PIP and all my analog stations. I find this picture clearer than going through either S-video or Comp inputs on analog (ESPN, CNN Headline, etc). When I want to watch digital stations or HD, I go through Comp.

Just for kicks, try sending a wire from your Sat box to Ant input and see if the picture's clearer. The colors might not be as vibrant but I prefer it. I am still investigating whether there are tweaks to sharpen this "overscan" which I feel is the culprit while going through Comp inputs.

vblyth

10-06-03, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by DustynW
Tom....

I don't understand all of the service menu settings, I just followed Josh Lehman's (Docdvd) recommendations. The combination of changes that he recommended made a dramatic improvement, though I am sure it could be made even better with someone personally calibrating the set.

Dustyn

Dustyn,
With the length of the treads, it's tough to track down any specific recommendation. What specific recommendations of Docdvd did you follow and where did you find them? My set-up is similar to yours and I would appreciate any info.

Thanks.

Clamhead

10-06-03, 01:11 PM

DLP-Watcher:
Thanks for the tip about setting box from 4:3 to 16:9. I didn't know this was an option. I have the 301 DishTV series receiver and have mine hooked up via S-video & Video 1 as well. My receiver doesn't offer component outputs, so S-video is best I can get (for now). I think that basically what is going on is that this is a very accurate TV and as has been mentioned before, GIGO. I don't know how stable a Sat signal is, but I went to it due to too many problems with cable signal & provider.

Zen Lord

10-06-03, 11:36 PM

Yesterday I was ready to get a Samsung 56 or 61" unit... and now I find this. I'm wondering if it's still the right choice. Are any of you guys happy with yours? Would you do it again? If you wouldn't get it again, what would you go with instead?

I really want to get a Big Screen TV sometime soon, preferebly this month. I thought I had my decision made, but I'm beginning to have serious second thoughts. Many are complaining about the Green problems, and you guys seem to have other numerous concerns as well. So, what's the verdict?

Govnah

10-06-03, 11:47 PM

Took delivery of my 61" Sammy over the weekend and see the rainbows to often and have had a headache ever since. I'm seriously considering returning the set to CC. Just my .02.

TIA

Sea Ray

10-07-03, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by Zen Lord
Yesterday I was ready to get a Samsung 56 or 61" unit... and now I find this. I'm wondering if it's still the right choice. Are any of you guys happy with yours? Would you do it again? If you wouldn't get it again, what would you go with instead?

I bought my 43" DLP Sammy a couple weeks ago and overall I'm very pleased. The green push problems have either been worked out by my minor tweaking or by the TV "breaking in", but I think it is great.

I don't have any rainbow issues. If I shake my head back and forth really fast like my 4 yr old likes to do then yes I get glimpses of the rainbows. I have had many family and friends watch it and not one of them has mentioned rainbows although if I told them to look for them I'm sure I'd hear about them. As for headaches, I think sometimes the picture needs to be toned down a bit. The colors are so vibrant. I get headaches looking at this computer screen too long, actually.

I got this TV because:

1) The side to side viewing was better than a CRT RP
2) No burn in issues
3) It's smaller and lighter than the tube sets and the RP boxes
4) It fit my entertainment center perfectly (I couldn't fit a larger one in and I wouldn't want to go smaller than a 36"
5) No TV I saw in any showroom had a better picture on HD

My issues at this point seem very addressable with SM tweaks although to be honest I'm so pleased with the picture I'm hesitant to do much.

If you learn nothing else by searching through these threads you'll learn that there is no perfect HD set out there right now. These HD sets are "like wives. They are a compromise." :)

I think we'll really cringe at what we can buy a couple years from now compared to now but we're techies and that's the way it goes.

johnevo

10-07-03, 04:59 AM

I've had my 61" since April, and I love it. For me, there was really nothing else to consider and remain in the same price range. However, I needed a tabletop set, so that definitely narrowed down my options. Today, I tell friends to check out the LCD-TV's, DLP's and Plasma's, in that order. I also tell them to make sure they get at least one DVI input. Oh, and buy it at a place where you can return it (e.g. Best Buy, etc.). Control is everything!

RaceTripper

10-07-03, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by Govnah
Took delivery of my 61" Sammy over the weekend and see the rainbows to often and have had a headache ever since. I'm seriously considering returning the set to CC. Just my .02.

TIA

As for the rainbows, I see them now and then, but it doesn't bother me since I only glimpse them if my eyes dart away from viewing.

As for the headaches, you might consider getting a backlight if this occurs watching in a totally darkened room. Check out the Ideal Lume (http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lume.htm) backlight. I have it and it works great with my HLM617W.

Clamhead

10-07-03, 09:10 AM

Re: "Should I buy this unit"

I had been looking for approx 18 months before I settled on the HLN5065. My logic proceeded thusly:

1. Wanted large screen HDTV for home theater centerpiece, Plasma in 50" size too $$, and concerned about burn-in and pixel life as I would be keeping whatever I bought for at least 10 years, viewing approx 15 hours/wk. It is not the "main" TV in the house.
2. Kept looking, saw the Sam50" lined up next to a Pioneer plasma, a "regular" big box rear projection (don't remember mfgr), a Panasonic 50" LCD, and a Sampo EDTV (Plasma type, no HD).
3. After probably 20 visits during lunch time to the local BB (the sales mgr started recognizing me, and left me alone after my usual "just looking" comment) the comparison above left me convinced that the Samsung had the best picture for the $$. Plasma did look better mainly for peripheral viewing, but couldn't swallow the $$. I was able to get the remotes to all the sets and the sales gal helped me put all settings at factory default to get a more apple to apple comparison using the in-store provided signal to all sets (They had LOTR DVD thru 480P - component input going).
4. I felt that the Samsung offered the best bang for $$, knew from reading this forum that DVI was important, and was convinced from doing the comparison that it had the best picture.
5. As far as the PQ goes, all the "discussion" here IMHO, is somewhat subjective and can be adjusted out thru various means. I don't see the internal reflection, don't see rainbows, did use Avia to get things set up on the DVI input, and am now, with the the help of this excellent forum enjoying a great picture especially DVD's thru DVI. It is simply an awesome picture. SD picture thru my Satellite is ok, but this TV is mostly used for DVD movies. I wouldn't hesitate to do it all over again.

Hope my personal saga helps.
GL

vblyth

10-07-03, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by dwette
As for the rainbows, I see them now and then, but it doesn't bother me since I only glimpse them if my eyes dart away from viewing.

As for the headaches, you might consider getting a backlight if this occurs watching in a totally darkened room. Check out the Ideal Lume (http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lume.htm) backlight. I have it and it works great with my HLM617W.

dwette,

I just got a ideal lume for my HLN617W. I haven't got a chance to use it yet but was wondering how you have it sitting in reference to the set. Do you have it sitting on your stand behind the set or have you got it mounted higher? Appreciate any info.

RaceTripper

10-07-03, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by vblyth
dwette,

I just got a ideal lume for my HLN617W. I haven't got a chance to use it yet but was wondering how you have it sitting in reference to the set. Do you have it sitting on your stand behind the set or have you got it mounted higher? Appreciate any info.

My TV sits in front of a window. The IdealLume sits on the windowsill, at about the height of the bottom of the screen. I plan to try putting it on the floor behind the TV, but need a way to turn it on/off more conveniently.

vblyth

10-07-03, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by dwette
My TV sits in front of a window. The IdealLume sits on the windowsill, at about the height of the bottom of the screen. I plan to try putting it on the floor behind the TV, but need a way to turn it on/off more conveniently.

dwette,
Thanks for the info. I'm going to try it at the bottom of the screen sitting on my stand for now. I don't like how the the fan from the tv blows on it there though. I bought an appliance module and a IR transmitter from x10.com to control the lamp remotely. Should work well.

SethS

10-07-03, 08:47 PM

I think that's a great way to switch them on and off. I use the IR543 module, so I can control the lights with the same universal remote as the equipment uses.

Csaba Szabo

10-08-03, 09:45 PM

Hi there. I have had my HLN50W for a couple of weeks now and here are some of my experiences and suggestions. (And thanks for everyone for contributing to this list; it has been a rich resource for me).

1. The picture is absolutely pristine. I think the picture is better than the plasma TVs I looked at: nicer colors and none of the lines and graininess some of the plasmas have. (not to mention cost/value ratios and life expectancy of the TV).

2. The only thing I had a problem with was that I found the blacks not black enough; this can be fixed by setting the gamma from 4 to 5 in the service menu and setting the picture to custom, and taking down the brightness and taking down the colors to about 25-30. A lot of the settings depend on the source, I almost find that the settings need adjustments depending on the DVD I watch. (and HDTV picture signal requires a different set of settings).

3. DVD. I bought the Samsung HD-931, and when connected through the DVI or the component output, using the progressive 720p or the 1080i scan settings (blue/blue or green/blue settings), the picture on the TV is absolutely stunning. Almost comparable to the HDTV movies. Amazing. I watched Gattaca, Cast Away, K-Pax, Big Blue, Fifth Element, and it’s like going to the movies. But a lot depends on the quality of the DVD. Superbit or not. The quality of the transfer. Things like that. But if you feed this DVD and TV a good source, it puts out a pristine picture.

4. High def signals. Hdnet and HBO high def feeds, via DirecTV are great. Over the air ABC, NBC and other stuff you can pick up is also stunning. It’s like you were looking through a window.

5. Low def signals. The picture sucks with VCR and regular TV signal. There is not much you can do about it. If you plan to watch a lot of laserdiscs, regular TV channels or VCR don’t buy this TV.

6. Aspect ratio. With the Samsung HD DVD player, set through the DVI connector, many DVDs some in with the wrong aspect ratio, and it cannot be changed because the TV does not allow you changing the aspects on component or DVI inputs. It can be annoying.

7. Fan noise. The first TV I had to take back because there was a serious cooling fan noise, plus a high pitch noise. There is no way you can hear this in a regular store, but when you take it home, and you use outside speakers, you can hear it coming from the TV. The second TV is better. The fan is still audible if you have the sound turned off, but if you have it turned on, you don’t really hear it. As far as I understand, about 26-29 dB is allowed by this type of TV, and it’s up to the viewer/listener to determine if this is too much or not.

8. Color tone. I had Sony before so for my eyes the Cool 1 and Cool 2 looks the best. I guess it is a personal preference.

9. Center speakers. Previously I had a Sony and the internal speakers could be used as center speakers when using an outside audio system. This one does not have that feature. Plus, the top of the TV is really thin, and you cannot even put a small center speaker on it. So you have to put it on the wall or under the TV (if you have the matching stand).

10. DNIe: I see no difference with and without the DNIe whatsoever. Maybe it only works with low def signals?

11. PC monitor function: works very well, although it seemed to crop the bottom of my Mac’s screen when I briefly tried it. Probably there is an adjustment option somewhere.

12. Remote - some people find it clumsy, I think it is cool.

13. Rainbow effects. I can see it sometimes. When the picture is dark and you have a few very bright spots, and you move your eyes from one side to the other (of you are watching it when your eyes are tired and your sight drifts away), you can see very nice rainbows. (actually, it is blue, red and green lines for me, I have not seen yellows or colors inbetween). It is not annoying, I can see it maybe 3-4 times for a fraction of a second in a 2h movie.

13. Conclusion: If you are not too picky about a low level cooling fan noise, and you plan to watch a lot of HD signals, this TV is unbeatable (provided it is durable). If you have a large DVD collection or watch a lot fo DVDs, I suggest you get the DVD-HD931. For about 250 bucks on the web, it’s not a cost compared to the TV, and it puts you in a different world altogether.

Hope this helps for current users or for people thinking about buying this TV.

RaceTripper

10-08-03, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by Csaba Szabo
Hi there. I have had my HLN50W for a couple of weeks now and here are some of my experiences and suggestions. (And thanks for everyone for contributing to this list; it has been a rich resource for me)....

6. Aspect ratio. With the Samsung HD DVD player, set through the DVI connector, many DVDs some in with the wrong aspect ratio, and it cannot be changed because the TV does not allow you changing the aspects on component or DVI inputs. It can be annoying.

...

I have my Marantz progressive DVD player on the 480p component inputs (HLM617W v214 firmware) and I can change aspect ratio for DVDs just fine.

David S on OBX

10-08-03, 11:16 PM

Picked up my 5065W today. Got it setup, using DVI out of my HTPC. Innitially had difficulty setting the PC to 720p. Managed though, and it looks great.

So far I've just familiarized myself with the controls and set the contrast and Brightness back. I'll wait a while to do any tweaks.

I'm running Diredtv and standard cable through the PC for now. So far none of the rainbow, headache, fan noise, movement artifacts.

Manufacutre date Sept. 2003.

howada

10-08-03, 11:48 PM

I've had my HLN617W since August. I believe I have allowed sufficient time for break in, but I am still experiencing an artifact that I don't like. I am not an experienced videophile so please forgive me if I don't use the correct descriptive terms.

My picture seems very grainy. When I get up close, the pixels seem to be dancing around with this DLP set. I have not noticed this when looking at plasmas or CRT sets or even front projection DLP units.

For example, I was watching a HD news broadcast tonight and the weatherman was wearing a dark suit. I looked at his suit up close on my Samsung HLN617 and it looked like his suit had electricty in it. Although he appreared to be standing still, his suit was dancing. I'm not quite sure how to describe this.

When I hit the "still" button, I don't see any of this, although I do see an inconsistant picture. For example, lighted parts of a dark area appear splotchy instead of simply lighted.

My question for you experts is: do I have a problem or is this normal? I'm not sure if I need to contact Samsung or if I might just be too critical.

I have not gone into my service menu, but I have made all possible adjustments within the consumer menus. Nothing seems to help the problem that is bothering me.

I appreciate any insight anyone can provide.

Thank you,

David

jaseman

10-09-03, 01:50 PM

Remember that you are looking at a 61" TV. How does the weatherman's suit look from the recommended distance of about 10' average?

DLP-Watcher

10-09-03, 09:07 PM

I think SD programs require more distance than HD programs. People had high hopes that they will convert everything to HD once they by DLP--- Very Very wrong.

Singals are singnals and that is one of the main reason they changed the singal first and then changed the TV.

Too much expectations of a TV that is not capable of doing what is not suppose to do is what going on with many people here on this thread.

howada

10-09-03, 11:10 PM

Thanks for your comments. The experience I am having must be inherent to large rear projection DLP TVs. I think it's in people's nature to look at interesting things up close. Plasmas, LCDs and CRTVs don't seem to have the same distance requirement to "wow". I also didn't see the same problem when viewing a DLP front projection unit yesterday (100+ inch screen). I just want to make sure my unit is not faulty.

johnevo

10-10-03, 07:22 AM

Hi howada,

Others have commented on the same artifact, and I believe I had it on my original 61" HLM. I think this is commonly referred to as the mosquito effect. Here's one of many threads on this forum discussing the topic:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=307710&highlight=mosquitoes

-John

Shag1077

10-10-03, 10:49 PM

I know this is a real Newbie question; but can someone please tell me exactly how I enter the service mode to tweak the gamma?
Thanks!!
-Jesse

czarcone

10-11-03, 10:36 AM

All,

Suffice it to say that over the past few months, I've read literally hundreds of posts from this forum, other Web forums, individual postings, trade publication reviews, downloaded user manuals from manufacturer websites, etc. all in search of the "perfect" HDTV.

Well, there isn't one. Every technology (CRT, CDT, LCD, DLP, LCoS, plasma, front or rear, what have you) has its benefits and its drawbacks. I came to this conclusion early on and decided not to agonize over minor technology hiccups that might give a buyer pause. I decided to focus on basic features and functionality that suit my current viewing lifestyle, which is:

- Both my wife and I watch a lot of widescreen material, so we wanted a 16:9 aspect ration to minimize letterboxing. 4:3 televisions need not apply.
- As such, I didn't want to be concerned with burn-in issues. CRT and plasma went out the window.
- My wife does not like "fat people" (e.g. 4:3 material streched to 16:9) so a broad range of aspect control was extremely important. (I'm packing a few extra pounds myself, but that's a separate issue). If the TV couldn't resize a progressive signal, it got scratched off the list and was not checked twice.
- We didn't mind spending a few $K but did not want to spend a fortune. High-def plasma, 70-inchers and exotic projectors were shown the door.

After cruising through a few BBs, CCs, Tweeters and some more high-end locales (Hi-Fi Sales in Cherry Hill, NJ - strongly recommend for anyone in the area) my wife and I both liked the PQ, presentation & styling of the Samsung DLP line. I immediately began researching both the core technology & the Samsungs in particular, and we eventually decided it was the right TV for us.

(I personally would have enjoyed seeing the Philips Cineos single-chip LCoS, but they're backordered everywhere in the Philadelphia area, and people are buying them sight unseen. I for one don't buy vaporware that I can't see for myself. I'm also very hesitant to embrace ANY first-generation technology, regardless of the hype).

As such, we took an HLN467 from Tweeter home about three weeks ago. The first night it arrived, Hurricane Isabel killed the power in our area and we couldn't watch anything. How's that for irony?

Overall, we're very pleased with the set. Specific observations:

- The discrete codes (found elsewhere in this forum) work as advertised. I was able to directly program my Philips Pronto 3000 using them, and can now jump directly to an input without having to scroll through that obnoxious menu.
- Warm-Up Creaks. Barely noticeable. About 5-10 minutes after powering on, the case creaks a tiny bit from thermal stress as the lamp comes up to temperature.
- The Rainbow Effect. I see the occasional strobophobic rainbow every now and then - maybe once or twice during a dark movie. You can usually see it when there is a bright light (say a fluorescent ballast) against a dark background, and suddenly look away from the screen. Then again, if you suddenly look away from the screen, YOU ARE NO LONGER WATCHING YOUR TELEVISION. If I keep my eyes on the screen, I am hard pressed to see rainbows. Ambient light certainly helps a lot - I have a 20W light source behind the TV, aimed towards the ceiling. This helps with eyestrain as well. As such, my observation of the Rainbow Effect is that, while you can definitely see it when you know what to look for, it is not overly distracting under normal viewing conditions. YMMV.
- The Swarm Effect - I can see flecks of video and DLP noise (e.g. the insect swarm) if I press my face against the television. I can still see it, much less noticeably, from a few feet away. Otherwise, it's not an issue at standard viewing distances (my couch is approximately 8' from the television).
- Fan Noise - Not overly noticeable. I would characterize the sound itself as white noise, and it's not overly distracting or annoying (kind of a cross between a PC fan and a microwave oven). It barely registers on my sound pressure meter, perhaps 2db louder than the room ambient. From 8' away it is barely noticeable. You will not hear it at all with even a moderately dynamic soundtrack.

Now, most importantly, PQ and tweaks:
- Overall PQ is excellent. Colors are bright (overly so, see below). Lateral fade is much less than RP CRT - I assume the Samsung screen is relatively low gain. You can see some slight color banding with DVE test plates and bright, saturated cartoons, but otherwise it's not noticeable with most video material. Glare is almost nonexistent. The picture doesn't suffer from blooming, as is the case with most non-CRT, fixed-display technologies.
- For tweaks, I highly recommend Josh Lehman's consultation services (jlehman@docdvd.com). I contacted him after reviewing threads from others who retained his services, and I find him to be both highly competent and highly responsive. (In one case, I e-mailed him a question at 9:30PM EST (that's right, PM) and he replied IN FIFTEEN MINUTES. He also called around 10:30PM to see how I was doing. Try getting that kind of service from BB or CC - you have better odds of getting hit by lightning in a Vegas casino).
- Following Josh's advice, the resultant PQ is nothing short of stunning. Black levels are excellent (still dark gray, but contrast has improved remarkably) and the transitions between picturebox black, letterbox black and video black have all but disappeared. Color tweaks are dead-on (verified with the new Digital Video Essentials, which I strongly recommend over Avia). Flesh tones look natural and not saturated. It really illustrates how overly-bright (bordering on obnoxious) the default picture was. Then again, the TV has to compete and look good on a BB/CC showroom floor (which it certainly does). Bottom line - get an ISF consultation for your unit - you won't regret it.
- The sharpness control seems to be defeated (not that I'm complaining). I didn't notice a single difference with the DVE Snell/Wilcox test plate across its entire 0 to 100 range.

The family & neighbors love it - beyond PQ, they can't get over the styling, weight and form factor (especially depth, or rather the lack thereof). With the matching stand, it really becomes the centerpiece of the family room.

The only problem at this point is my current HDTV service. While everyone on the planet seems to have the nice new Motorola 5100s, Comcast serves up a POS Scientific Atlanta 3100HD, which was apparently built during the Eisenhower administration. Bright gray pictureboxing, 1080i output only (I wanted 720p to match the set's native capability) no aspect control, no DVI, no Toslink output (all I have left on my current receiver is optical). A real POS. Comcast says they're trying to change over, meanwhile the coax antenna input looks better than HDTV, but this is beyond the topic of this thread.

Perhaps my only gripe is that there are two component inputs which only accept progressive signals - they do not accept component 480i. This presents certain problems if I have, say, component HDTV and component DVD - you lose all but two aspect controls. Only the "normal" and "wide" modes are available with progressive materials - "panorama" and the zoom modes are defeated. All of them are defated with DVI input, but seeing as I don't have any DVI equipment, this is not a prolem at the present time.

Still, I highly recommend the Samsung DLPs. Overall we're very satisfied with the unit.

Enjoy!

Z

ZenD

10-11-03, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by Shag1077
I know this is a real Newbie question; but can someone please tell me exactly how I enter the service mode to tweak the gamma?
Thanks!!
-Jesse

See the document attached to the first message in this thread.

Arun's Guide to the HLN Series (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=256065)

Greg.

CraigSharrow

10-12-03, 04:47 PM

Just got my HLN yesterday from BB, started calibrating with DVE (on DVD via a JVC player using Component 1 input)

Comments:

1. setting color using B/G/R filters seems nearly impossible (to my untrained eyes)

2. "Sharpness" seems to have no effect 0-100

3. Low light scenes on HDTV via cable and via DVD suck! I'll try gamma 0/2 and see if it's any better.

Questions:

Does anyone else have the "306"? Can/should I use the 302 numbers from Mike_Pro's spreadsheet to tweak?

Advice and suggestions welcome and appreciated (no ranks or flames, though)

Thanks,

craig@sharrow.com

ambient-sky

10-12-03, 06:17 PM

I've got an HLN617W with 3.06 (upgraded from 2.11). Here are the settings I am currently using with good results for DVI:
Gamma 0
Contrast 95
Brightness 36
Color 53
Sharpness 0

IMHO, this gets me 95% of the way to a great picture over DVI. Slight color adjustment of the R-GAIN (135) and B-GAIN (131) using the B/G/R filters of DVE helps, though there is still some "green push" (G-GAIN 128) that I haven't been able to get rid of. I haven't seen much problem with the push in anything but DVE test patterns though.

ambient-sky

NOTE: Edited 2003-10-14 to add r/b/g gain info.

Shag1077

10-12-03, 06:46 PM

ambient -sky,
If you dont mind, what are you settings for Red/Blue/Green gain??
Thanks
-Jesse

DocDVD

10-12-03, 08:25 PM

One thing I wanted to say about ISF calibrations, regardless of the calibrator: Most digtal sets will drop anywhere from 4000 to 6000 degrees Kelvin to hit the D65. On top of that, the standard level of contrast and brightness is usuallly significantly lower than you would expect. If and when you get a calibration done, please give yourself two full weeks to appreciate the film-like end result.

Dean Martin

10-13-03, 09:06 AM

hello all, I just got the HLN4635W and I am very happy with the set all the way around except for one area, I find that some scenes are too dark especially when using the set for gaming. I find myself fiddling with contrast and brightness, and cranking them way up but this really isn't the best answer. Games that have their own brightness control are better but still even some scenes of video seem like the black areas are so black that there's no detail.
What's the best service menu settings to improve this? Would increasing the gamma help?

CraigSharrow

10-13-03, 12:49 PM

Can someone explain (with words or graphs) the differences between Sammy's various Gamma settings?

I could see that Gamma 3 (I think) was much brighter, but could not deduce what the differences between 0,2,and 4 were.

rhdonkin

10-13-03, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by ambient-sky
I've got an HLN617W with 3.06 (upgraded from 2.11). Here are the settings I am currently using with good results for DVI:
Gamma 0
Contrast 95
Brightness 36
Color 53
Sharpness 0

IMHO, this gets me 95% of the way to a great picture over DVI. Slight color adjustment of the R-GAIN and B-GAIN using the B/G/R filters of DVE helps, though there is still some "green push" that I haven't been able to get rid of. I haven't seen much problem with the push in anything but DVE test patterns though.

ambient-sky

I had my hln567W calibrated last week. The temp tracking was way too high (above 9000K) and the color tracking the blues were high and the reds were low, green was right on.

I had him set it up for the best picture on componet 2 for HDTV. The only settings he changed in the SM are as follows:

DNIE from to
R-Gain - 118 134
B-Gain - 115 91
R-Offset 127 118
g-Offset 128 124
B-Offset 131 136
C-Sel 0 1
S_CT 135 118

Under the User settings I have the following

Contrast 70
Brightness 56
Sharpness 38
Color 80

SW level is 214

tirepatch

10-14-03, 08:32 AM

Had my HLN507 v.302 ISF calibrated last week. Settings attached. HD broadcasts on compnonet 2 and DVD on DVI look perfect. Analog still leaves something to be desired but seems there is nothing that can be done about that. The default delay setting of 223 was right on.

Hope this helps the many v302 owners that have been waiting for tweak info.

CDuda

10-14-03, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by rhdonkin
I had my hln567W calibrated last week. The temp tracking was way too high (above 9000K) and the color tracking the blues were high and the reds were low, green was right on.

I had him set it up for the best picture on componet 2 for HDTV. The only settings he changed in the SM are as follows:

DNIE from to
R-Gain - 118 134
B-Gain - 115 91
R-Offset 127 118
g-Offset 128 124
B-Offset 131 136
C-Sel 0 1
S_CT 135 118

Under the User settings I have the following

Contrast 70
Brightness 56
Sharpness 38
Color 80

SW level is 214

rhdonkin,

If you don't mind me asking...what is you Gamma set at?

Thanks!
Chris

turls

10-14-03, 11:36 AM

Thanks tirepatch! My observations/comments:

1) Gamma 0 -- has anyone had a 302 set pro calibrated and ended up with any different result?

2) So even a pro is "only" calibrating gamma, delay, gains, offsets and sub brightness/contrast on "high quality" inputs. Interesting.

3) Can you post your user settings as well? I'd just like to compare with what I got using DVE. I know it is an apples to oranges comparison.

4) Did you end up with Warm 2?

5) No change in delay? Interesting. Wonder if this means that newer sets might actually have delay calibrated correctly at the factory. Of course, if you end up with a light engine replacement, all bets are off probably.

I did DVE on new 302 internals on the inputs I could (only could do 480p and under--still have to do DVI and PC later so I mostly used KenLand's user settings), and am pretty amazed with the color results, although I still wonder if I'm really getting the best blacks that I can. I could still either get a ISF calibration done or rent ColorFacts, or even do a phone calibration, but I'm still on the fence on how much better I can do. Since I haven't messed with anything but gamma in the service menu, you would think so, but I just wonder how good the 302 is out of the box.

Of course, since my upgrade board was not "married" to the set it ended up on since it was an upgrade, and my defaults were different than the 302 settings in the spreadsheet that has been available here for a while, you'd think there would be room for improvement.

Nothing new--same decision many Sammy owners are struggling with. Just took me longer to get to this point with all the sets I've gone through and waiting for the upgrade board.

turls

10-14-03, 11:44 AM

If you adjust color with the filter, you should be able to see a difference as you cycle up and down. After I got done using DVE with B/G/R filters I had a noticable improvement.

I also don't see anything with sharpness adjustment 0-100 on 302, if I remember correctly. Although engaging or disengaging DNie did make a difference . . .

There are no actual "tweaked" numbers in the spreadsheet for 302. The tirepatch post above is the first time I've seen a post of pro or semi-pro calibrated 30x settings.

Originally posted by CraigSharrow
1. setting color using B/G/R filters seems nearly impossible (to my untrained eyes)

2. "Sharpness" seems to have no effect 0-100

Does anyone else have the "306"? Can/should I use the 302 numbers from Mike_Pro's spreadsheet to tweak?

tirepatch

10-14-03, 12:01 PM

Matt:

Actually, he did calibrate my video 1 input also but I was just not sure where to put it on the spreadsheet. I temporarily hooked up my cable STB to it so he could adjust. Video 1 tweaks were:

DNIe
R-Gain 134
B-Gain 104
R-Offset 127

VPC3230
BR_M 148
CT_M 40

The user menu settings in my spreadshet are actually the adjusted settings, not the defaults.

He said the Temp Setting should be set to normal. I have been changing to the warm and cool settings just to see what looks better and I haven't seen any advantage to moving off of the standard setting.

We played with the delay setting. Going lower than 223 resulted in an orange look, going over 223 changed the red to pink. 223 was strongest red possible on my set.

Iceblade

10-14-03, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by tirepatch
Matt:

We played with the delay setting. Going lower than 223 resulted in an orange look, going over 223 changed the red to pink. 223 was strongest red possible on my set.

tirepatch,

Was the delay setting adjusted using a color analyzer's output to determine which one was the "most red" or did you and the calibrator do this by eye?

Thanks,
Jeff

tirepatch

10-14-03, 12:25 PM

It was done using a piece of gear the cost over $15,000. I believe it was a Philips PM5639. I don't know but he said it was a color calibrator and more. Something that not to many calibrators had access to.

Iceblade

10-14-03, 12:28 PM

Very nice, thanks for the info.

Avon Lake, huh? That up in the Chagrin Falls area? I can't recall.. thought it was Cleveland area. I'm from Canal Fulton originally. Nice to see lots of Ohioans enjoying these sets. :)

Later,
Jeff (displaced Ohioan in Houston, TX)

Originally posted by tirepatch
It was done using a piece of gear the cost over $15,000. I believe it was a Philips PM5639. I don't know but he said it was a color calibrator and more. Something that not to many calibrators had access to.

pspun

10-14-03, 01:06 PM

Matt, congratulations on finally getting the upgrade!

cindy

10-14-03, 01:35 PM

I could still either get a ISF calibration done or rent ColorFacts, or even do a phone calibration, but I'm still on the fence on how much better I can do.

What is a phone calibration? Does someone talk you through the calibration steps?

turls

10-14-03, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by pspun
Matt, congratulations on finally getting the upgrade!

Yeah, the guy had even worked on a couple DLP's before and seemed to know what was going on. Discrete codes are great!

Originally posted by cindy
What is a phone calibration? Does someone talk you through the calibration steps?

Search this forum for user "DocDVD".

Botill

10-14-03, 07:07 PM

I can't extract anything after downloading tirepatch's file. The file is empty. Is it working for everyone else?

tirepatch

10-14-03, 07:13 PM

Botill:

Save the file to disk first. Then open from your disc.

jack1313

10-14-03, 08:14 PM

Hey guys...Trying to verify the geometry on my DLP with DVE...What overscan pattern should I use for this? The only one I see in the reference section is the 1.33 Overscan Patter (12.17), which does fill the screen when I have the aspect ratio set to "wide". Am I testing this properly? If so, my display seems tilted a couple degrees to the left...Does anyone know which SM value you use to adjust this?

THanks,
Jack

Botill

10-14-03, 09:39 PM

Tirepatch,

I appreciate your response, but it is not working for me. I have never had this problem before. I can download & save the file fine, but when I look into the folder, there is nothing there. Is there another way I can get the file?

wrahn

10-14-03, 10:45 PM

Thanks for sharing your tweak information. Too bad you didn't buy the HLN 467 with 302 firmware, then I could have the info for my set. However, thanks to you and all the others who share their experiences and knowledge with the rest of us. It won't be long until someone with the 46 and 302 will post the results.

Thanks to all,
Wes

turls

10-14-03, 11:29 PM

It worked for me. On zip files from here I have to do a right click save as, just save to your desktop then you can't lose it.

Originally posted by Botill
I appreciate your response, but it is not working for me.

Jefftaz

10-15-03, 12:33 AM

Tirepatch,

Thanks for your post of tweaks for the 302 board.
Like you I have a HLN507W with the July 03 - 302 board.
Your tweaks should be very close to what would be best for my set. I am going to try them out tonight and will post to let everyone know how it turned out.

Thanks again,

Jeff

segami

10-15-03, 12:56 AM

Wierd, I'm having the same problem as Botill. Right-click - save as - it downloads (about 30k) - double-click to open - and the zip file is empty. Any thoughts?

CPO70

10-15-03, 02:28 AM

Wierd, I'm having the same problem as Botill. Right-click - save as - it downloads (about 30k) - double-click to open - and the zip file is empty. Any thoughts?

I can't get it either. The download creates the folder but the folder is empty.

tirepatch

10-15-03, 07:15 AM

OK, for those that can't read the spreadsheet here are the tweaks:

DVI

DDP1010

POS-Y 13
POS-X 160
Delay 223
Gamma 0

DNIe

R-Gain 134
G-Gain 120
B-Gain 103
R-Offset 126
G-Offset 128
B_Offset 129
S_BR (DDP) 244
S_CT (DDP) 90

Component 2&3

DDP1010

POS-Y 13
POS-X 160
Delay 223
Gamma 0

DNIe

R-Gain 134
G-Gain 120
B-Gain 106
R-Offset 126
G-Offset 128
B-Offset 130
S_BR (DDP) 250
S_CT (DDP) 108

Video-1

DDP1010

POS-Y 13
POS-X 160
Delay 223
Gamma 0

DNIe

R-Gain 134
G-Gain 120
B-Gain 104
R-Offset 127
G-Offset 128
B-Offset 131
S_BR (DDP) 250
S_CT (DDP) 110

VPC3230

BR_M 148
CT_M 40

Anything not listed was left at the default. I'm curious to see if these help other v302 owners. Any feedback?

PGriff1051

10-15-03, 09:23 AM

Has anyone done an ISF Calibration for the 467 and if so what are the new values. Not that I would copy them, but simply use them as a guide to see what adj I will need to make. Any info would be appreciated

PGriff1051

10-15-03, 09:24 AM

Sorry, I forgot to add Firmware 3.02

st_nick

10-15-03, 09:56 AM

In the "guide to the HLN series" by arungupta, it lists the "warm-2" setting as the accepted tweaked value for the DLP color tone setting in the UM.

I seem to be seeing a lot of people setting it to normal lately. So my question is whether this is one of those issues where one tracks 6500K better and one looks better to the so-called untrained eye, or whether warm-2 is too low temp wise.

I've seen this question asked before a couple of places, but havent' seen an explanation of how the different settings compare.

I'm using Gamma 0, otherwise no SM tweaks yet and reluctant to since the colors seem pretty balanced using the filters and Avia to crosscheck.

turls

10-15-03, 10:25 AM

I don't think we know for sure about "Warm 2" on 30x--that is the problem--this stuff is a moving target. Here we have an ISF calibration done on 302 that left it at normal. If we get a few more to verify that setting on ISF calibration, maybe we know at that point.

I don't think the document referred to has really been updated for 302 much--because of lack of information if for no other reason.

mike_pro

10-15-03, 10:57 AM

You guys are getting confused.

You should put your set on normal color tone before you tweak it. Then, make all the service menu gain/offset adjustments. This will then make the normal setting look like Warm2. (It will affect all of the color tones, so after the tweaks warm2 may not look so good anymore). If you are leery of making serious SM adjustments (I would still do gamma), just set the color tone to warm2 (or whatever looks best to YOU) for proper color decoding and tracking. This will get you "close" to the calibrated/tweaked performance.

sooke

10-15-03, 10:59 AM

Something strange happened in the SM last night that I'm hoping someone can explain. It seems like my defaults changed on their own:

I have an HLN467 with firmware 302.

Two nights ago I wrote down all the defaults for the inputs I use (DVI, Comp3, Comp1, Ant). I did this by setting the TV on the input I was interested in, then turning the TV off. I waited for all cooling activety to stop. Then I did mute-1-8-2-power. Bingo, I'm in SM, presumeably for the input I wanted. I write everything down.

I repeat for all connected inputs.

Then I go in and change DVI gamma to 0. Other connected inputs set gamma to 2.

Now the wierdness.

Last night I want to play with the RGB gains/cuts. But I'm sick of always turning the TV off between inputs. So I use the method described in the SM spreadsheet (after I'm in SM, just use the TV/Video to choose inputs). I enter SM on Comp3. RGB gains/cuts defaults are as I expect. I switch to DVI. Hey! What's going on? The RGB gains/cuts are not at my recorded defaults. I never changed them.

Any ideas? Will changing gamma also change RGB defaults?

DVI Defaults on Oct 13:

Gamma 4

R-Gain 125
G-Gain 120
B-Gain 112
R-Offset 126
G-Offset 128
B_Offset 130

DVI Defaults on Oct 14:

Gamma 0 <--- I did this on Oct 13.

R-Gain 137
G-Gain 120
B-Gain 99
R-Offset 125
G-Offset 128
B_Offset 129

All other DNIe defaults are the same as I originally wrote them down.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Sooke

sooke

10-15-03, 11:21 AM

Regarding my previous post, does anyone know if changing the UM selection for Color Tone (warm1, warm2, etc.) will change the RGB gains and cuts? Maybe that is what happened. Although, I never change from "Normal".

I have noticed that after exiting SM, the UM display MODE setting is always set back to "Dynamic". Maybe it also changes the Color Tone.

Other things I've noticed that maybe others can confirm:

1. It appears setting the gamma for comp2&3 will carry over to Comp1p, Comp1i, and Ant.

2. It appears setting the RGB gains/cuts (DNIe) for Comp2&3 will carry over to Comp1p.

3. It appears setting the RGB gains/cuts (DNIe) for Ant will carry over to Comp1i.

Wow, I'm fishing for all kinds of information. Sorry if this has been covered before. Does anyone know:

4. What is sub brightness (S_BR), as opposed to main brightness (BR_M)? I only ask because people seem to be tweaking them.

I wish I had a Service Menu manual.

Thanks,

Sooke

st_nick

10-15-03, 11:26 AM

mike_pro: thanks for the info on the color presets. I wasn't clear on how they worked. It makes what I'm seeing more logical.

I find that for SD, I like normal better, and for DVI or HD I prefer Warm-2. The more 'film-like' look of the warmer setting doesn't do it for me on lower quality sources where signal noise is a major factor.

Supertoyz

10-15-03, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by st_nick
In the "guide to the HLN series" by arungupta, it lists the "warm-2" setting as the accepted tweaked value for the DLP color tone setting in the UM.

I seem to be seeing a lot of people setting it to normal lately. So my question is whether this is one of those issues where one tracks 6500K better and one looks better to the so-called untrained eye, or whether warm-2 is too low temp wise.

I've seen this question asked before a couple of places, but havent' seen an explanation of how the different settings compare.

I'm using Gamma 0, otherwise no SM tweaks yet and reluctant to since the colors seem pretty balanced using the filters and Avia to crosscheck.

Warm 2 is the setting closest to D65 on a non-calibrated set......when you enter the service menu to do an actual grayscale calibration you are entering the SM in the default mode "Normal" Now the Normal setting is calibrated to D65 and all of the others have been altered accordingly which means warm 2 is now likely to be well below D65. I'll give you an example:

Keep in mind all of these numbers are made up and would represent averages from 30 to 100 IRE:

Cool 2 = 12,000K
Cool 1 = 10,000K
Normal = 9,000K
Warm 1 = 7,800K
Warm 2 = 6,700K (Closest OOTB setting)

Now entering the SM defaults to "Normal" so that's the easiest to calibrate, Normal needs to be lowered an average of 3500K to reach the desired D65. This change to the baseline would effect all of the other presets by about the same amount making the end result:

Cool 2 = 8,500K
Cool 1 = 7,500K
Normal = 6,500K
Warm 1 = 4,300K
Warm 2 = 3,200K

Supertoyz

10-15-03, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by mike_pro
You should put your set on normal color tone before you tweak it.

Close.....you can actually set it to whatever you like, it really doesn't matter because when you go into the SM it's gonna be in the Default, Dynamic, Normal setting.

Supertoyz

10-15-03, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by sooke
Regarding my previous post, does anyone know if changing the UM selection for Color Tone (warm1, warm2, etc.) will change the RGB gains and cuts? Maybe that is what happened. Although, I never change from "Normal".

I have noticed that after exiting SM, the UM display MODE setting is always set back to "Dynamic". Maybe it also changes the Color Tone.

Other things I've noticed that maybe others can confirm:

1. It appears setting the gamma for comp2&3 will carry over to Comp1p, Comp1i, and Ant.

2. It appears setting the RGB gains/cuts (DNIe) for Comp2&3 will carry over to Comp1p.

3. It appears setting the RGB gains/cuts (DNIe) for Ant will carry over to Comp1i.

Wow, I'm fishing for all kinds of information. Sorry if this has been covered before. Does anyone know:

4. What is sub brightness (S_BR), as opposed to main brightness (BR_M)? I only ask because people seem to be tweaking them.

I wish I had a Service Menu manual.

Thanks,

Sooke

Yes, changing the color temp in the UM is essentially selecting a preset for the the grayscale tracking (RGB gains and offsets). The reason you always see the same values when entering the SM is because you always enter in the Normal color temp.

At a glance all of your observations regarding settings carrying across inputs appear to be correct.

Your last question regarding sub settings and master settings is a question I've got myself. I found a few documents explaining this. While researching gamma one document said that the difference between these settings is that one adjusts the property before gamma correction and the other effects it after (don't remember which was which). I understood this to mean that I could use one of them to tweak my gamma curve and once I had it as close as possible I'd use the other to properly set the brightness and contrast without effecting the gamma curve. On Milori's website I just read that the master settings control the drive of all three colors while the sub settings only control certain colors....it didn't specify which. I'm still trying to find out the actual answer......might have an answer later today.

turls

10-15-03, 12:35 PM

Great info as usual mike_pro and Supertoyz, I really didn't want to fiddle with anything besides gamma without a pro or tools, and this makes me even less likely to try to just copy other's settings. But it doesn't really steer me towards ISF either--unless I want to pay to have it redone if and when my light engine (or even just color wheel) gets replaced. For that matter the light bulb!

CPO70

10-15-03, 01:08 PM

tirepatch said:OK, for those that can't read the spreadsheet here are the tweaks:

Thanks!

sooke

10-15-03, 01:15 PM

Thanks Supertoyz for the info.

Can anyone with an HLN467 and firmware 302 tell me what your defaults are for DVI RGB gains/cuts? I want to compare to the two possible defaults I wrote down.

Thanks!

Troy

kmil

10-15-03, 01:36 PM

Can Joe Kane's latest dvd (Dig. Vid. Essentials) be use to "tweak" the HLN467W.........WITHOUT going into the Service Menu; just staying within the UM ("users menu")?

turls

10-15-03, 02:07 PM

If you are spending the time with DVE, you most likely will have to go into the service menu and adjust x and y, so you might as well at least change gamma as well. The rest you might want to skip and go straight to user settings.

DVE is not a magic bullet if that's what you mean. Just look at the most recent ISF calibration results posted here and you'll see that that can't be done without special equipment.

cmxchuck

10-15-03, 03:02 PM

Hi All,

This is GREAT, I have been waiting for 302 SM settings. One question is after doing the SM tweaks, what should the UM settings be, such as DNIE on/off, contrast, brightness, etc. settings and should they be different for different inputs. I look forward to your answers and then will go and try it on my 507 with 302 firmware. Thanks to all.

Chuck

Mark@Ct

10-15-03, 03:31 PM

Sooke,
Well your going to be glad to know your experience AND defaults are not unique. I had a HLM507 and Samsung swapped me out to a 56" v. 304 on Monday. With my 507 I had a 204 board then it was changed out to a 214 board. So..
My defaults on the 56" v. 304 are very close to yours. I have also experienced a shift in the SM that I am 90% certain,that I did not enter ( 10% for beers during tweaking sessions). So I reset everything to defaults and will start over.

I am at gamma 0 for DVI and gamma 2 for everything else. I think that you can set gamma in DVI and then globally for ANT, COMPs, VIdeos. To everyone reading I had a 507 since Jan. and the new 30x boards ARE NOT acting the same as before. It seems more "tricky" to me now, especially if the DNIe settings shift around, which seems unlikely, but I'm the second person to report it, and I did not experience that ever with v. 204 or 214 boards.

Additionally:
gamma 0 in ANT makes TV picture very dark
at gamma 0 the moving black bars on the Avia brightness test ARE NOT visable, using XP-30. Again never had this problem on v. 204 or 214.
Finally I also am not sure what s_ct and s_ br really do. They seem to affect the overall contrast of the picture.

ANY INPUT OR HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED!

Still working on it.....
Mark

Supertoyz

10-15-03, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Mark@Ct
Sooke,
Well your going to be glad to know your experience AND defaults are not unique. I had a HLM507 and Samsung swapped me out to a 56" v. 304 on Monday. With my 507 I had a 204 board then it was changed out to a 214 board. So..
My defaults on the 56" v. 304 are very close to yours. I have also experienced a shift in the SM that I am 90% certain,that I did not enter ( 10% for beers during tweaking sessions). So I reset everything to defaults and will start over.

I am at gamma 0 for DVI and gamma 2 for everything else. I think that you can set gamma in DVI and then globally for ANT, COMPs, VIdeos. To everyone reading I had a 507 since Jan. and the new 30x boards ARE NOT acting the same as before. It seems more "tricky" to me now, especially if the DNIe settings shift around, which seems unlikely, but I'm the second person to report it, and I did not experience that ever with v. 204 or 214 boards.

Additionally:
gamma 0 in ANT makes TV picture very dark
at gamma 0 the moving black bars on the Avia brightness test ARE NOT visable, using XP-30. Again never had this problem on v. 204 or 214.
Finally I also am not sure what s_ct and s_ br really do. They seem to affect the overall contrast of the picture.

ANY INPUT OR HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED!

Still working on it.....
Mark

I forgot to mention in my previous post that I had some issues with SM settings changing on my previous HLM set. I was meticulous about recording my settings then a few days later I'd continue tweaking and notice that the settings were not where I left them. I never did figure it out. My new HLN has not had this issue yet. I wonder if this is possibly pre-programmed into the TV to alter the settings at certain time intervals - possibly to compensate for changing characteristics as the bulb ages??? Just a thought.

I also found Gamma 2 to be nearly perfect for C1i and down while gamma 0 seemed good for my PC and DVI inputs. Further tweaking has found DVI to be a PITA tho......I'm beginning to think that the Samsung 931 DVD player is the cause of the influence I can't adjust out.

jack1313

10-15-03, 04:00 PM

Not sure if you've seen the posts elsewhere, but I have seen people complaining that the 931 can't send pluge over DVI.

sooke

10-15-03, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by jack1313
Not sure if you've seen the posts elsewhere, but I have seen people complaining that the 931 can't send pluge over DVI.

This was mentioned in a review of the 931 in last month's Widescreen Review. I have also seen it in a few posts in the DVD Player forum.

Sooke

Mark@Ct

10-15-03, 05:38 PM

Supertoyz,
I'm using a Bravo D1. I don't know if I can help you compair or try anything,but if so , let me know. It's interesting that we have found gamma 2 to be good for everything but DVI, I at least feel I'm not going crazy or need an eye exam. The changing SM is a real eye opener! As soon as it happened I just forgot about tweaking and reset my defaults..it was weird. Just put in gammas of 0 and 2 and got out of there. JFTR my DVI was almost perfect out of the box. I'm sure it needs some color tweaking but is much closer that when I first fired up HLM507 last Jan..

BTW: What is PLUGE?

Mark

Botill

10-15-03, 05:49 PM

I figured out how to unzip Tirepatch's file. I downloaded a program called winzip & it worked for me. Do a search on google & you will find it. Default Windows extractor would not unzip the file correctly for me.

Anyway, thanks to Tirepatch, I tried the settings last night & they seemed to look pretty good on my hlm437 upgraded to 302. I still need to check thoroughly though.

sooke

10-15-03, 06:04 PM

Hi Mark@Ct,

Thanks for the info.

Originally posted by Mark@Ct

My defaults on the 56" v. 304 are very close to yours.

I assume you mean your defaults are close to my original defaults, before mine mysteriously changed. Right?

BTW, about pluge. I'm no expert, but pluge is referring to sending a "blacker than black" signal to the TV, used to set contrast. I probably have the numbers wrong, but valid greyscale values sent over DVI go from 8 to 247 for video applications. Blacker than black is below 8. Hopefully someone who actually knows what they are talking about can give you a better explanation.

Ineresting idea, Supertoyz, about the possibility the values change with bulb hours. Although, mine changed alot (not a gradual trimming).

I'll experiment some more.

Sooke

gfulk

10-15-03, 11:37 PM

HELP!
Like a silly fool, I read this thread, thinking it made me an instant pro. I went into the SM on my HLN507W and played with the first two settings under DDP1010. (the x and Y) The third setting, however, was set at TOS/Phil. I hit the right arrow on my remote, and now the entire television is broken! At first, the three lights on the front of the TV blinked on and off while no buttons on the remote worked. I unplugged it and let it sit for a while, upon power up the screen did boot up - upside down. Now when I try to access the SM, it goes right back into the flashing three lights.

Does anyone know of a fix? Is there a way to completely reset the system? Feel free to e-mail me at gfulk@bellsouth.net

RaceTripper

10-16-03, 07:09 AM

Originally posted by gfulk
HELP!
Like a silly fool, I read this thread, thinking it made me an instant pro. I went into the SM on my HLN507W and played with the first two settings under DDP1010. (the x and Y) The third setting, however, was set at TOS/Phil. I hit the right arrow on my remote, and now the entire television is broken! At first, the three lights on the front of the TV blinked on and off while no buttons on the remote worked. I unplugged it and let it sit for a while, upon power up the screen did boot up - upside down. Now when I try to access the SM, it goes right back into the flashing three lights.

Does anyone know of a fix? Is there a way to completely reset the system? Feel free to e-mail me at gfulk@bellsouth.net

The service tech did that (changed lamp setting) when he performed my upgrade in August. He had to order another board. Fortunately, putting my old board back in worked until the replacement arrived.

You might try unplugging the set. Then go straight to SM after plugging it in again.

Dean

KenLand

10-16-03, 11:42 AM

Sooke,

Generally for RGB black is 16 and white is 235. So generally 7.5 IRE (NTSC black) would be RGB 16,16,16 and 100 IRE would be 235,235,235.

1 IRE is actually some voltage for analog signals. I forget what.

Ken

kmil

10-16-03, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by dwette
The service tech did that (changed lamp setting) when he performed my upgrade in August. He had to order another board. Fortunately, putting my old board back in worked until the replacement arrived.

You might try unplugging the set. Then go straight to SM after plugging it in again.

Dean

Dewette: I just had a LONG chat with a guy from Samsung in Tech Support.....who actually spoke English! We are not supposed to "know" this BUT.........there appears to have been a change to the Sammy menu and HERE I am speaking of the 467/567 HLN models. I did not ask about nor did he say anything about the other models. BTW, I do NOT yet have my Sammy 46". Here's what to do:

1. Go to the Service Menu (SM)
2. Go to the "Option Menu"
3. Go to what may be labled: "Video Recall"
(He said this should reset ALL video to what he called
"ALL FACTORY SETTINGS" or words to that effect.

Let us/me know if it works. IF it works it may well mean that "tweakers" can tweak to their hearts delight. Hopefully this will help a lot of folk as I have gotten a LOT of valuable advice from my fellow members. Good Luck!

DooDoo

10-16-03, 12:26 PM

I wonder how many of you tweakers have messed up your sets? I personally know 2 people who have made changes that cannot be undone in their SMs. Perhaps some things are better left to the pros.

baja

10-16-03, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by kmil
Dewette: I just had a LONG chat with a guy from Samsung in Tech Support.....who actually spoke English! We are not supposed to "know" this BUT.........there appears to have been a change to the Sammy menu and HERE I am speaking of the 467/567 HLN models. I did not ask about nor did he say anything about the other models. BTW, I do NOT yet have my Sammy 46". Here's what to do:

1. Go to the Service Menu (SM)
2. Go to the "Option Menu"
3. Go to what may be labled: "Video Recall"
(He said this should reset ALL video to what he called
"ALL FACTORY SETTINGS" or words to that effect.

Let us/me know if it works. IF it works it may well mean that "tweakers" can tweak to their hearts delight. Hopefully this will help a lot of folk as I have gotten a LOT of valuable advice from my fellow members. Good Luck!

I just looked on my 567 under "options" there is a "user reset". It seems to reset the UM to defaults, it did not change any of my settings in the SM. There is no "video recall".

sooke

10-16-03, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by baja
I just looked on my 567 under "options" there is a "user reset". It seems to reset the UM to defaults, it did not change any of my settings in the SM. There is no "video recall".

Hi baja,

What is your firmware rev? My 467 has v302. It also does not have a "video recall" under options.

gfulk, wow, that sucks. Here is a long shot idea: It may be that you can get into SM, you just can't see anything. If so this might work:

With the set off do mute-1-8-2-power.
Wait about 1 minute to make sure the TV is ready.
Now navigate the menu blind:
Press Enter (press joystick in) (hopefully this puts you into the DDP1010 menu).
Press joystick down twice (not in, but towards you) (hopefully gets you to LAMP).
Press LEFT arrow on your remote (hopefully this re-selects the Tos/Phil option).
Power off.
Wait, pray.
Power on.

Yeah, it's a long shot alright.

Hope it works.

Sooke

sooke

10-16-03, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by KenLand
Sooke,

Generally for RGB black is 16 and white is 235. So generally 7.5 IRE (NTSC black) would be RGB 16,16,16 and 100 IRE would be 235,235,235.

1 IRE is actually some voltage for analog signals. I forget what.

Ken

Thanks Ken, I figured I had the numbers wrong.

So... does that mean there are only 219 shades of grey (or red, green, and blue for that matter) over DVI?

That doesn't seem like enough. I read in a paper on gamma (don't have the link handy) that 14 bits are required to produce enough shades that the human eye won't detect banding.

Sooke

baja

10-16-03, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by sooke
Hi baja,

What is your firmware rev? My 467 has v302. It also does not have a "video recall" under options.

version 214
To confirm, after more research I found it did reset the UM but did not touch the SM.

Silurian

10-16-03, 03:09 PM

Has anyone noticed that changing the Red, Green and Blue offsets/gains on the Antenna input will sometimes change the numbers on the component 1 480P input? I thought they were supposed to be separate. It really freaked me out when I wrote down my defaults, change the Antenna offset/gain settings and went into the component1 480P settings and they no longer matched the defaults. This is scary for people that only write down defaults for one input at a time then adjust, or come back to adjust later when they have a new device.

This doesn't seem to always happen. Plus changing the RGB offset/gain on the Comp1 480P doesn't seem to affect the Antenna values.

FYI, I have v302.

Sil

sooke

10-16-03, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by Silurian
Has anyone noticed that changing the Red, Green and Blue offsets/gains on the Antenna input will sometimes change the numbers on the component 1 480P input? I thought they were supposed to be separate. It really freaked me out when I wrote down my defaults, change the Antenna offset/gain settings and went into the component1 480P settings and they no longer matched the defaults. This is scary for people that only write down defaults for one input at a time then adjust, or come back to adjust later when they have a new device.

This doesn't seem to always happen. Plus changing the RGB offset/gain on the Comp1 480P doesn't seem to affect the Antenna values.

FYI, I have v302.

Sil

Hhmm... Not exactly. As detailed in a post of mine on the previous page, my DVI RGB values changed after I changed the Antenna gamma. I don't know if the antenna gamma change caused it, or if it was a coincidence.

Sooke

CraigSharrow

10-16-03, 04:08 PM

These are the SM DEFAULT SETTINGS
(for v306 - HLN5065)

DDP1010 (ALL)

POS-Y 7
POS-X 159
Delay 224
Gamma 4

DNIe (ALL)

R-Gain 146
G-Gain 120
B-Gain 104
R-Offset 115
G-Offset 127
B_Offset 133
S_BR (DDP) 248
S_CT (DDP) 113

AD9883 (Comp/480p)

Y_Gain 185
Y_Offset 60
CR_Gain 175
CR_Offset 58
CB_Gain 175
CB_Offset 62

VPC3230 (Component 1/480i)

BR_M 158
CT_M 40
Tint_M 134
IFC 2

VPC3230 (Svid/Ant)

BR_M 158
CT_M 40
SAT_M 1970
TINT_M 134
PFS_M narrow
PK_M 2
PKCOR_M enable
BR_S 158
CT_S 40
SAT_S 1970
TINST_S 134
PFS_S narrow
PK_S 2
PKCOR_S enable
IFC_M 2
CBW_M 3
LOWP-M 1
LPF2 0
CBW2-M BYPA
IFC_S 2
CBW_S 3
LOWP_S 1
LPF2_S 0
CBW2_S BYPA

FLI2300 (Ant)

CT 128
BR 128
SAT 170
LOW_FREQ 28
HIGH_FREQ 88
MULTI_MTN 56
Y_BR 1023
CB_BR 1023
CR_BR 1023
NR off

3D-COMB (ALL)

DYCOR 1
DYGAIN 10
DCCOR 2
DCGAIN 10
CORING off

gfulk

10-16-03, 07:13 PM

kmil, sooke, Craig,
Thanks a ton for the help. Leaving it unplugged for a little bit and then booting it up right into the SM put a picture on the screen. I navigated backwards to the lamp setting, selected it, and the whole thing fixed itself... Maybe no more tweaking for a few days

Sea Ray

10-17-03, 08:43 AM

I am experiencing a little green in dark scenes. Is this something that should be addressed in the gain adjustments or the off sets?

catmanz

10-17-03, 11:40 AM

Fellows, after reading many threads on the HLN617W, I still can't come to a conclusion about how to turn a football or baseball field from neon green to natural grass color. I'm a bit tentative about going into the service menu, but I'll do it if there is a difinitive fix. I'm connecting with analog cable straight to the DLP. The OOTB picture was excellent with this exception. The analog cable is surprisingly good. Also, under the above scenario, will turning gamma to 0 have any positive effect? If so, what?

baja

10-17-03, 12:21 PM

After 2 weeks of trying all the tweeks out there I have resorted to the OOTB settings in the SM and have resorted to just adjusting the PQ in the UM. Every adjustment I would make in the SM would fix one channel but then mess up another. Heck sometimes you would adjust for one scene and then the when the program switched to another scene it would look like hell. I have also tried using Avia to see how each tweek effecteced the color and hue and the OOTB settings seemed to be almost right on the money. Every other suggested tweek threw them off. I also found that Gama 0 gave for a dim picture and lost detail in PQ. I found that overall PQ seems best for SD when you run the color down to 35-40 in the UM. For HD you can bring it back to 45-50 for 'true HD' but treat upoconverted HD just the same as SD. I have the contrast at 90, brightness at 50 and sharpness at 25. For me this seems to be the best across the board. I have found that the Sammy DLP does require much more "tuning" for each different feed, there are no real true across the board settings. My 567 is not like my Pioneer 503 plasma where after an hour with Avia in the SM you were golden across the board.

sooke

10-17-03, 01:32 PM

catmanz,

For me and my 467 (with v302 firmware) I have found that the most important tweak was setting gamma from 4 to 0. To my eyes, the gamma 4 setting made the picture too contrasty. That is, dark to mid hues seemed crushed towards dark, while mid to bright hues seemed crushed towards bright. This probably makes the picture stand out on the showroom floor, but does not look natural to me. Shadow detail also improved at gamma 0.

Also, setting gamma to 0 (I did it for DVI, comp, and ant) seemed to eliminate the "sunburn" I used to see at gamma 4.

I've tried one other poster's RGB settings (for hln507, v302), but for DVI I returned to the default settings and think it looks best. For Ant the tweaked settings looked better.

Obviously none of this was done scientifically. I just went by what looked best to my eyes. I'm still tweaking comp3 input, skin tones look slightly green.

If you want to venture into SM I would try gamma 0 or 2 first. If you still have problems with neon grass, changing the RGB gains/cuts is probably your next step.

As always, record your defaults first.

Sooke

Originally posted by catmanz
Fellows, after reading many threads on the HLN617W, I still can't come to a conclusion about how to turn a football or baseball field from neon green to natural grass color. I'm a bit tentative about going into the service menu, but I'll do it if there is a difinitive fix. I'm connecting with analog cable straight to the DLP. The OOTB picture was excellent with this exception. The analog cable is surprisingly good. Also, under the above scenario, will turning gamma to 0 have any positive effect? If so, what?

neilometer

10-17-03, 01:39 PM

Craig,

My HLN5065W SM "Delay" setting was defaulted to 212. I've since changed it to 222 and that seems to have helped my PQ. I'll compare the rest of your defaults to what mine were/are. I did get an "out-of-box" deal on this TV, so maybe the prev. owner was messing with it.

Neil

Mark@Ct

10-17-03, 02:56 PM

I've had much the same experience as a couple of you. I tried the tweaked settings on my 56" v. 302, and have since reset them to the defaults, except for gamma. For DVI my gamma is 0, for everything else it is set to 2. I found gamma of 0 for SDTV to be to dim. Gamma of 2 seems very good. My factory defaults for all; gammas was 4. Additionally, (for reference) my delay was set OTB at 225. Like baja wrote above the difference in PQ from station to station is large. I also tune each station in the UM. My DVI defaults seem pretty good right now. I am still puzzled as to why the TV will not show the AVIA black bars on the brightness test using a XP-30 on Comp1. Any ideas? BTW I tried gamma 0,2,4 and 5 and the TV will not resolve the moving black bars....which my previous HLM507
could show no problem.

Mark

Sea Ray

10-17-03, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by catmanz
I still can't come to a conclusion about how to turn a football or baseball field from neon green to natural grass color. I'm a bit tentative about going into the service menu, but I'll do it if there is a difinitive fix.

I don't know why these things are like this out of the box but this is typical of the Samsung DLP. However it is easily fixed. I adjusted the G-Gains in the service menu. I have not played with the offset adjustments yet as I have not gotten any definite explanations of what that does. But I did play with the R and G gains and all I needed to do was lower the G about 10 units to get it right. The only areas I'm still fiddling with is the shadows which sometimes still look a little green but I was able to solve the neon field issue with the G- gain.

baja

10-18-03, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by Sea Ray
I don't know why these things are like this out of the box but this is typical of the Samsung DLP. However it is easily fixed. I adjusted the G-Gains in the service menu. I have not played with the offset adjustments yet as I have not gotten any definite explanations of what that does. But I did play with the R and G gains and all I needed to do was lower the G about 10 units to get it right. The only areas I'm still fiddling with is the shadows which sometimes still look a little green but I was able to solve the neon field issue with the G- gain.

I have noticed the same thing with the shadows looking a little green. Funny thing is even lowering the color in the UM way down does not seem to help very much. My current 567 is ver 214, I am getting a replacement delivered today due to a dead mirror. I will be curious to see what version firmware this unit comes with and see if the OOTB PQ is any different. I believe this new unit is from a different shipment since the current unit is 7 weeks old.

Mark@Ct

10-18-03, 03:10 PM

baja,
You'll almost surley be getting a v. 304

Mark

baja

10-18-03, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by Mark@Ct
baja,
You'll almost surley be getting a v. 304

Mark

That is just what I got. Looking good so far, haven't found any dead mirrors.

Mark@Ct

10-18-03, 03:28 PM

II just got mine on Monday which replaced HLM507. Mine also looks good but have switched gammas as described above.

Good luck!
Mark

baja

10-19-03, 09:32 AM

The red is killing me on my replacement 567. Every looks like they were nuked. I have turned down my R Gain from 120 to 113 and R Offset from 126 to 123. Of course now this only makes green even greener. It seems like there is no real winning, you get better on reds and make greens worse. If I try turning down greens it makes the reds stronger. I have also changed my Gama from 4 to 0 which has helped offset the green somewhat. This however also dims the picture somewhat. Does anyone know exactly what Offset does compared to Gain:confused: What is better adjusting??

BTW...here are the factory defaults on my 567 verson 302:

G-gain-120
R-gain-120
B-Gain-110
R-Offset-126
G-Offset-128
B-Offset-131

Gama-4
Delay-223

jboeckman

10-19-03, 10:40 AM

I just bought my Samsung DLP HLN507W ver 3.02, and I am seriously not prepared for this TV.
When I first got ready to adjust my TV, I saw my Tint option adjustment. Now, I played around with it, and I cannot find this option anywhere in my screen adjustment when adjusting component from my 301 sony DVD player.
I am trying to use AVIA to make my adjustments, and Im sure they are way off. But my current settings are:
Custom: Contrast 57, Black level 50, Sharpness 7, and color is 68. No tint option is present.
I will try to do some more research in the forums, it sound like you have a handle on this tv. I was hoping for a quick answer.
Thanks, Jeff

Steve O

10-19-03, 10:53 AM

There is no tint control on the HD component (480p+) or DVI inputs (and maybe the VGA input... I'm not sure). The only way to tweek the color on those inputs is to get into the service menu.

-Steve

jboeckman

10-19-03, 11:01 AM

Well that kind of makes since why i cannot find it on the HD side, but does show up in the antenna..(the only two i have connected). Thanks for the answer, Im getting a 101 in DLP with this link. Again, Thanks

turls

10-20-03, 02:40 PM

Supertoyz, any new info?

Originally posted by Supertoyz
Your last question regarding sub settings and master settings is a question I've got myself. I found a few documents explaining this. While researching gamma one document said that the difference between these settings is that one adjusts the property before gamma correction and the other effects it after (don't remember which was which). I understood this to mean that I could use one of them to tweak my gamma curve and once I had it as close as possible I'd use the other to properly set the brightness and contrast without effecting the gamma curve. On Milori's website I just read that the master settings control the drive of all three colors while the sub settings only control certain colors....it didn't specify which. I'm still trying to find out the actual answer......might have an answer later today.

DannyBaker

10-20-03, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by baja
The red is killing me on my replacement 567. Every looks like they were nuked. I have turned down my R Gain from 120 to 113 and R Offset from 126 to 123. Of course now this only makes green even greener. It seems like there is no real winning, you get better on reds and make greens worse. If I try turning down greens it makes the reds stronger. I have also changed my Gama from 4 to 0 which has helped offset the green somewhat. This however also dims the picture somewhat. Does anyone know exactly what Offset does compared to Gain:confused: What is better adjusting??

It's difficult to set color balance or grayscale without some sort of reference or color analyzer. But in any case, the Offset controls apply to the darker part of the picture and the Gain controls apply to the brighter part. They do interact with one another, though, so you need to repetitively go back and forth making adjustments to achieve good grayscale tracking.

leesweet

10-27-03, 02:44 PM

Another set that seems to match most of these: N617 with 302, had to change GAMMA to 0, and take the green offset down by 7 to 120 to get rid of the dark low-light scenes (NYPD was really bad in this regard) and get rid of the green tint in lowlight.

For those that missed it, note that the gain and offset numbers are similar to what's in one DVE slide and I think it was discussed much earlier in this thread:

The offsets are the constant part of the color level, and the gain is the additional amount added with increasing levels.

(For those that remember Algebra II, the offset is where the line crosses the Y axis, and the gain is the slope of the line! :) )

Thus, reducing offset should take out a fixed amount of that color, and gain should add/reduce varying amounts.

(DVE is great for getting a handle on things like this... just started to play with my copy yesterday....)

rodneyremington

10-27-03, 03:48 PM

I've had my Samsung 46 for about 2 weeks now and am completely satisfied with the PQ without using any service mode picture adjustments. Reading this forum, I was assuming I would need to, at the least, enter the service mode and change the gamma, and at the most pay for an in home calibration, to get good PQ out of this monitor. I don't know if I am less fussy than the average forum poster or if the newer units or the 46 inch model in particular has better factory settings, but all I have done is turn the picture setting off dynamic and change the settings. Specifically I dropped the color down to about 35-40. Contrast is at about 85, sharpness DOES make a difference in my unit and I keep it about 35 or 40, and the brightness is about 60. The picture looks good. No big-time green push, the field in a football game looks natural, no clay faces.

My sources include high definition digital cable (comcast) as well as a non-progressive scan Sony DVD with component connection. I think this needs to be said, at least for my unit, that it is not necessary to do more than some couch-tuning to get a good picture.

I am sure that if I paid a tech to do an in-home calibration or if I used avia or other similar calibration tools that I might be able to take the picture from great, which it is now, to high-end home theater perfection, but I don't see the need. It may be that once I see it properly calibrated I will say, wow, look what I was missing but at least for now I'm very happy with it. I watched Spy Kids 2 last night on comcast high definition, HBO I think it was, and the PQ was absolutely STUNNING. Even my wife was raving about how much better it looked than the DVD, which we own and have watched several times with kids.

neilometer

10-27-03, 03:58 PM

rodney,

Do, by any chance, know which version of firmware your set has? It would be on the bottom right of the SM screen.

I'm curious because your's is the first post I've read where sharpness made any difference. I'm wondering if it's because of newer firmware.

--Neil

Ricklynchcorecom

10-27-03, 04:48 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by baja
[B]After 2 weeks of trying all the tweeks out there I have resorted to the OOTB settings in the SM and have resorted to just adjusting the PQ in the UM. Every adjustment I would make in the SM would fix one channel but then mess up another. Heck sometimes you would adjust for one scene and then the when the program switched to another scene it would look like hell. I have also tried using Avia to see how each tweek effecteced the color and hue and the OOTB settings seemed to be almost right on the money. Every other suggested tweek threw them off. I also found that Gama 0 gave for a dim picture and lost detail in PQ.

I have to agree Baja, gamma 0 is just too dim. The brite scenes are great, but dark scenes are barely visible on my 437 rev 302. I am back to gamma 4 with reduction to levels you mention for UM settings.

Rick

Michael.Chrisco

10-27-03, 05:12 PM

Thank god, I thought I was crazy cause I just went back to defaults last night before reading this. Agree on gamma 0 to dim & lost detail. Tried the gains and offsets too, similar results as you. I have noticed sometimes the scenes just have pale or red faces and then the next scene etc. is ok, even worse for different movies and channels, so I dont think its the TV. I now have 500 hours on bulb and I think it is just recently broken in.
Everything looks GREAT now back at defaults with UM changes, which I finally realized change back to default for each input after you enter the SM
Never could get Avia to look right.

I have a 507 rev 302, SM defaults, Samsung 160 thru DVI, Progressive DVD thru component

Contrast 100
Brightness 50
Color 35
Sharpness 10 - This seems to really help the SD stuff on my set.

gerhard911

10-28-03, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by Michael.Chrisco
Sharpness 10 - This seems to really help the SD stuff on my set.

Do you have DNIe ON or OFF for your SD inputs ? Someone posted that SHARPNESS seemed to be tied to DNIe somehow.

jojor

10-28-03, 10:07 AM

How do you reset to default? Is the default for 302 the same throughout all the models? I have a HLN437W v302. Now if only I had taken down those numbers before making adjustment.

Also, which slide of DVE help you in adjusting Gain and Offset? I found only one on Title 11 Chapter 13 which shows a screenful of Grayscale. But it is very difficult to adjust.
DVE also doesn't help me in adjusting brightness and sharpness in Basic Calibration as I cannot see the pattern described in the DVD. The only thing I find useful is the Contrast and Color.

rodneyremington

10-28-03, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by neilometer
rodney,

Do, by any chance, know which version of firmware your set has? It would be on the bottom right of the SM screen.

I'm curious because your's is the first post I've read where sharpness made any difference. I'm wondering if it's because of newer firmware.

--Neil

Neil, I can't recall off-hand which firmware I have as I am at work right now but the unit is only a couple weeks old so I'm sure it is the newest. Also, since I posted I have re-fiddled with the sharpness and was unable to 100% convince myself that there was a difference between 0 and 100. I'm still very happy with my settings overall although I have gone up on the contrast to about 90-94 since i was finding that the occasional low-light scene was too dark.

The more I read about people using the SM to adjust their sets, the more I think that the best solution for overall multi-source good PQ is just sticking with the UM unless you are pathologically anal or have way too much time on your hands . Your results may vary...

Mark@Ct

10-28-03, 12:48 PM

Or want to end up with lumps on you head from banging it against the wall in frustration!
I did adjust SM slightly , OTB on the new sets are pretty good.

Mark

Michael.Chrisco

10-28-03, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by gerhard911
Do you have DNIe ON or OFF for your SD inputs ? Someone posted that SHARPNESS seemed to be tied to DNIe somehow.
I have it ON

neilometer

10-28-03, 01:51 PM

Ah! I think that may be a key fact. From what I've read here so far, most people have it OFF. Maybe the Sharpness control is only noticeable when DNIe is ON??? I usually leave it OFF because, although it changes the color temp and adds fine detail to things, I find the edge enhancement a little too aggressive for my taste.

-Neil

Michael.Chrisco

10-28-03, 07:16 PM

Actually I double checked and using DVI I cant turn it off. It is gray out as on. Only have digital NR as an option.

neilometer

10-28-03, 07:41 PM

If it's grayed out, then I don't think it's being used for that input.

Mark@Ct

10-28-03, 07:48 PM

With DVI you can not turn DNIe off.

Mark

DSBall

10-28-03, 10:58 PM

What setting do I need to tweek in order to shift the lower left edge of the picture out towards the frame. I currently have a gap about the width of a pencil along the left side (bottom) of the picture between the frame and image. Top left edge is fine.
Samsung HLN567W
Firmware vesion 302

Thanks in advance for any assistance

ender21

10-29-03, 03:12 AM

I believe the reason it's just the lower left edge of your picture and not the entire bottom edge of the picture is do to pincushioning and a very slight rotation that your picture as a whole has. Since pincushioning isn't something that's really fixable without major hardware overhauls, the best you can do for this positioning issue is to adjust the POS-Y setting down to center your image correctly. I would do so using a grid or other reference chart from Video Essentials or Avia, since relying on a normal channel to tell you what's right and wrong can be very inconsistent.

Rick

DSBall

10-29-03, 11:51 AM

Thanks - Should I increase or decrease the number to move left? I have the latest version of Digital Video Essentials that I'll use.

msjo

10-29-03, 12:08 PM

Quick question:

I am new to the forum and I have not had a chance to read through all the reply's. I have a Sammy 507 and I love to watch sports, when I watch football and the team is in all white, it's almost too bright to watch. I have messed with the setting and lowered the brightness, but seemed to wash the picture out if I lower the brightness too much. I think I have the brightness at around 50. Any ideas??

Thanks..

DSBall

10-29-03, 12:14 PM

Turn the Contrast and the Sharpness down (turn Sharpness way down).

Iceblade

10-29-03, 12:15 PM

Do yourself a favor. If you don't already own (or can borrow from a friend) a copy of the Avia Guide To Home Theater DVD or Digital Video Essentials DVD, go get one. Pop it in your player and follow the directions as to setting contrast, brightness, color, tint and sharpness. Other than that... if you plan on getting into the nitty gritty of the Service Menu and stuff like that... well... you've got ALOT of reading ahead of you.

Later,
Jeff

Originally posted by msjo
Quick question:

I am new to the forum and I have not had a chance to read through all the reply's. I have a Sammy 507 and I love to watch sports, when I watch football and the team is in all white, it's almost too bright to watch. I have messed with the setting and lowered the brightness, but seemed to wash the picture out if I lower the brightness too much. I think I have the brightness at around 50. Any ideas??

Thanks..

jollyrodger

10-29-03, 04:08 PM

I have a 567 that came with firmware 214. When I complained about audio sync problems, Samsung sent my Tweeter tech a new board...a 208.
I screamed real loud. My tech just called and said he will be over with a new 312 board on Monday. Don't recall seeing anything about a 312 before. I'll let you know how it goes.

msjo

10-29-03, 05:06 PM

Thanks for the response. I will try that tonight. I read a response awhile
back regarding the audio ouput on the Sammy to run sound through my receiver, is that a problem?

Thanks...

whftom

10-29-03, 06:05 PM

JUST BOUGHT HLN4365 THREE WEEKS AGO. RELEASED JULY 12,
2003, VER. 302. I LOVE IT! CHANGED GAMMA FROM 4 TO 5--
MUCH BETTER BLACK! CHANGED USER CONTRAST AND BRIGHT--
SOME FOR OTA. LOTS OF VARIATION OTA FROM CHANNEL TO
CHANNEL. ALL ELSE FACTORY. HD-931/DVI IS SUPERB!

st_nick

10-29-03, 10:31 PM

whftom: as far as I know, Gamma 5 is a 'repeat' of Gamma 0. Just FYI, since you'll probably see references to Gamma 0 everywhere, that it's most likely the same as what you're using.

ender21

10-29-03, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by DSBall
Thanks - Should I increase or decrease the number to move left? I have the latest version of Digital Video Essentials that I'll use.

I forget which direction to go when moving left or right, but moving up or down is just that: change the numbers up or down. You can juat test out both POS settings and see which directions they take you!

Rick

Sea Ray

10-29-03, 11:47 PM

To all you calibrationists out there I have a simple question:

How do you determine if a set needs a calibration? I assume it has something to do with checking the gray scales and gamma curves but how do you determine if a calibration is needed and what equipment would you need to make such a determination?

The last "tech" I had simply ran color in the UM to zero and said "since now you have a black and white picture this means you do not need a calibration."

My thought at that point was that the guy couldn't even spell calibration but maybe I'm wrong. Someone please straighten me out. I don't want to waste my time with anymore bozos and I'd like this information so I can properly screen future "calibrationists".

Clamhead

10-30-03, 08:17 AM

To move the picture left, increase POS-X.

Greg

baja

10-30-03, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by st_nick
whftom: as far as I know, Gamma 5 is a 'repeat' of Gamma 0. Just FYI, since you'll probably see references to Gamma 0 everywhere, that it's most likely the same as what you're using.

I do not believe this is so. Gama 5 looked very different from Gama0 on my 567 v304 set.

jaseman

10-30-03, 10:50 AM

OK, does anyone have any settings in the SM for 617W with firmware 306? Or am I the only one who owns one with this firmware version?

DSBall

10-30-03, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by Clamhead
To move the picture left, increase POS-X.

Greg
Thanks Greg I'll give it a try tonight.

So, I'm to understand there is no way to adjust for pincushion effect??

Clamhead

10-30-03, 01:43 PM

As far as I am aware, there is no adjustment other than possibly mechanical (tilting the the light engine assy) for this type of display. I have known bad capacitors to be responsible for some pincushioning problems on other display types. A service call might be in order for you to resolve this if it is a problem across all inputs (DVI, Comps, Antenna, etc).
Good Luck,
Greg

SCMO

10-30-03, 05:37 PM

My problem with Gamma. At gamma 0 the picture looks a bit dark while at gamma 2,4 I get more "screen door" effect. Is this normal and does anyone know how do diminish the screen door?

MO

Shag1077

10-30-03, 06:46 PM

Jasemane,
I too have the same setup, 617 with v. 306, and have not been able to get a resoponse as to calibrated settings

jaseman

10-31-03, 09:08 AM

Shag1077, looks like we either do it ourselves...or wait.
Anyway my PQ looks really very good OOTB with a few tweaks in the user menu.

mosher1234

10-31-03, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by Sea Ray
To all you calibrationists out there I have a simple question:

The last "tech" I had simply ran color in the UM to zero and said "since now you have a black and white picture this means you do not need a calibration."

That was the same guy that ran my volume down to zero and said I don't have an audio sync problem anymore!:D

Shag1077

11-01-03, 02:43 PM

Could anyone post the original SM settings for the 617W with v. 306.
I changed mine but the settings were for the 56" and I stupidly didnt write down my original settings.
Calibrated settings for this set would be better, but if anyone ha the original Id like that also.
THANKS!!!!!!
-Jesse

sooke

11-07-03, 03:06 PM

I want to try tweaking the DELAY setting of my color wheel. I have read in various posts that the way to do this is to display an all red picture and adjust until screen looks reddest.

So I need to display a red picture. How do I do this? I can use the color decoder test pattern from DVE, that has some red squares in it. But is there a better way? I thought maybe I could try changing the PAT_SEL setting thinking there might be a red screen in there.

I don't have an HTPC to supply an all red picture.

Three questions:

1. Is the method described above for adjusting DELAY essentially correct?

2. How do I supply a red screen?

3. Is the PAT_SEL parameter a safe thing to change? Has anyone tried it?

Thanks,

Sooke

rmostad

11-07-03, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by sooke
I want to try tweaking the DELAY setting of my color wheel. I have read in various posts that the way to do this is to display an all red picture and adjust until screen looks reddest.

So I need to display a red picture. How do I do this? I can use the color decoder test pattern from DVE, that has some red squares in it. But is there a better way? I thought maybe I could try changing the PAT_SEL setting thinking there might be a red screen in there.

I don't have an HTPC to supply an all red picture.

Three questions:

1. Is the method described above for adjusting DELAY essentially correct?

2. How do I supply a red screen?

3. Is the PAT_SEL parameter a safe thing to change? Has anyone tried it?

Thanks,

Sooke

Unless you have a colour analyzer I would be surprised if you could judge what is the best red setting. If you want to try you could just find the settings above and below at which point you start to see a very distinct change in red. Then you could set it to the value exactly between the two. The problem with this idea is that the red segment is bracketed by the blue and green. Your eyes are much much more sensitive to green than blue. This probably means that the 'correct' setting is not exactly half way between the two values but closer to the greener setting...

jb510

11-07-03, 07:23 PM

PAT_SEL is safe and fun to change...

As you scroll right and left you'll go through a long series of patterns. Scroll all the way back left to get back to the SM and normal picture.

However, it's less than convenient or useful for tweaking because you won't see the SM while the patterns are up... You'd have to change the pattern to red, then go back adjust the SM and change back to red... It's cool for checking for stuck mirrors and that's about it...

You'll need DVE / Avia or something similar that puts out PURE red. Avia has a pattern I think, but DVE does not...

As for as eyeballing pure red, good luck I've read the same threads and am tempted to try it... just be sure you write down YOUR delay setting before touching it. I think it's one of the many SM settings that various from set to set from the factory.

jdawg21

11-12-03, 12:09 AM

Hi, I am new to Home Theater and I personally was curious if buying the AVIA DVD was worth the buy. I mainly play video games (PS2) and watch DVD's on my tv. (Samsung HLN4365) Any suggestions?

Clamhead

11-12-03, 10:03 AM

Jdawg21,

Frankly. unless you are really into the technical stuff, adjust the picture until it looks good to you via the user menu and be done with it.

Most popular settings seem to have settled around:
Contrast - 70 to 90
Brightness - 40 to 60
Sharpness - not really an issue with these sets, anywhere from 0 to 60
Tint - 48/52 to 50/50

Some folks like Warm 2 setting, I personally find it a little too "golden", and some like Cool 1 or 2. These tend to add a bluish tint to the picture. I have mine on Normal.

You've no doubt read about Gamma settings. I have mine set at 4 (from factory). I find 0 is a tad hazy, takes away from black details.

Enjoy,
Greg

Clamhead

11-12-03, 10:05 AM

Whoops, forgot about Color.

Most seem to have settled around 30-40

Greg

jdawg21

11-12-03, 11:11 AM

thanks for the input clamhead, I may end up buying the Digital Video Essentials DVD anyhow, its a lil more my price range. 17$. Thanks for the info tho.

GeorgeAB

11-12-03, 11:31 AM

jdawg21,

The Avia DVD has a wealth of learning on it for someone new to home theater like yourself. It could be construed from your presence on this forum that you have more interest in such things than the average consumer. The point of providing test patterns and recommended settings is not to get the picture to look "good" to you. There are reference standards in the video industry. These standards allow consistency all along the signal chain, from the cameraman to the consumer.

Our historic television standard in this country is NTSC. Other countries have different standards. The National Television Standards Committee established all the technical requirements and references that are used in every facet of analog television industries. The NTSC standards were not followed very consistently for decaces and the result was "NTSC" being refered to as "never twice the same color." This situation has improved dramatically in recent decades. We now have a new set of standards for digital TV called "ATSC." The Advanced Television Standards Committee has revised our American television standards for the new capabilities of digital video transmission and display. We are currently in the middle of the transition from analog to digital television.

The important point of all of this is that it should be available for you to see on your TV at home the kind of picture the director intended. Cinematographers and colorists work very hard to acheive a certain look to a scene in a movie or television program. Subtle coloration and shading of light and set design set a mood and enhance the storytelling. You have no idea what the producers intended unless there is a way to adjust your TV to emulate the NTSC or ATSC display standards. What may look "good" to you may be a significant departure from what the art was intended to look like. You lose!

The home theater setup DVDs on the market all endeavor to educate the purchaser, via tutorials and reference test signals, how to adjust their picture and sound to emulate the NTSC and/or ATSC standards. I highly recommend that you spend the money on Avia and/or one of the more up to date titles, and start gaining a better understanding of how to acheive the "right" picture and sound in your home theater system. You will be wiser and more satisfied with the enjoyment of your equipment when you understand how it is intended to operate. It's worth the time, money and effort. Ignorance is not bliss when you have spent so much money on your equipment but remain clueless about how to get the full performance and beauty from its capabilities.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown

Insist on HDTV!:eek:

LLCD

11-12-03, 07:39 PM

I just got my hln617w upgraded to 3.06.
Like jesseman, I need some original SM factory setting for this set.
The x pos is all 30 units to the right
after the tech did a user reset.
Help!

LLCD

jdawg21

11-12-03, 09:41 PM

Mr. Brown,
Thank you for the information, it is greatly appreciated. I was leaning away from the AVIA because of the price. http://dvd.ign.com/articles/453/453816p1.html?fromint=1
Have you seen/used this DVD?? How do u feel it compares to the AVIA disc. I belive that I am only going to be able to receive the AVIA disc offline, which isn't much of a problem. Do you personally own the AVIA disc, also what other Digital video disc do you own/use. I only use my TV for PS2 and dvd's. I am planning on buying a DVI DVD player. Any suggestions? I was looking at the Samsung HD931. Have you used this DVD player? I was told that it will play DVD-R's, which is one option I am looking for in my purchase. As you was saying about my curiousity, I guess you could call it, I deceided to buy a TV for my bedroom and I wanted to get a great tv. So to do this I researched and talked to various people and places. I chose to get a DLP tv over a LCD or Plasma mainly b/c of reading online various places and alot of this site. I continue to research and read on this site and other places. I enjoy learning about the technology. Thank you once again for any input/info you can give. Feel free to IM me on AOL at jerme16 or on yahoo messenger at jerme20. Thanks once again.
Jeremy

jdawg21

11-12-03, 10:09 PM

Has anyone used the Video Essentials DVD?? The one that came out in 1997?? Would it be of any use to me today?? I have a samsung HLN4365. Or Should I just get the Digital Video Essentials??

Mccormick1

11-15-03, 05:26 PM

I am pretty new to this forum but have read many of your comments on the Samsung DLP's and found very little reference to this problem I am having with my new HLN617W Samsung. Have had it for two days now and while the overall picture looks great I am very bothered by what I would call graininess that resembles a swarm of green mosquitoes. From what I can read in some posts, this seems to be a result of the DLP technology but I am not sure. I even got this effect when I hooked the Samsung 931 DVD player, that has DVI output jacks, to the HLN617W DVI input jacks in 720p mode. I still have 28 days to return this set but I like many of its features and I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations or tips on how to eliminate or reduce this effect as this is the only quirk that really bothers me about it. For those that are not sure what I am talking about, if you go up close to the TV you will see what looks like a swarm of mosquitoes or little green dots crawling all over the screen. This is most prevalent in the dark colors especially the blacks. I certainly never noticed this at the store and I am wondering if this is a defect in my unit or something all DLP's do. I suspect on the smaller DLP's this might not be as noticeable but on the 61' I can definetly see it. Anyone else?

jhstn58

11-15-03, 06:19 PM

I would return it. What you see is not one of the "normal" problems associated with this line.

Steve O

11-15-03, 06:31 PM

Mccormick1, is this something you see when there's motion on the screen or all of the time? I suspect that it's just video noise and depending on how you have it hooked up, it may be worst on some connections than on others. Have you calibrated the set at all with something like Video Essentials? Maybe the brightness and/or contrast are too high.

I think most people will see the same thing if they look really close at an area of the screen that supposed to be "black". With DVI, black really should be black as there's no where in the signal to introduce any noise. If the DVD says a certain pixel is black then that's exactly what the TV does with that pixel. But on analog inputs, other factors come into play.

So before you go returning it, I think you need to explain the problem a little more and maybe people can help get rid of it. I don't think what you're expaining is the "dithering" problem that people often complain about during football/soccer games when the camera is panning side to side. If I understand what you're saying, your problem is something different.

-Steve

ilkevinli

11-15-03, 06:36 PM

This happens on ALL DLP TVs. The point is , your not suppose to get right up to the TV. no one watches TV at 5 inches from the screen. You cant see it from normal viewing distance. Just sit back and enjoy your TV. Stop trying to find flaws and be happy. :D

Originally posted by Mccormick1
I am pretty new to this forum but have read many of your comments on the Samsung DLP's and found very little reference to this problem I am having with my new HLN617W Samsung. Have had it for two days now and while the overall picture looks great I am very bothered by what I would call graininess that resembles a swarm of green mosquitoes. From what I can read in some posts, this seems to be a result of the DLP technology but I am not sure. I even got this effect when I hooked the Samsung 931 DVD player, that has DVI output jacks, to the HLN617W DVI input jacks in 720p mode. I still have 28 days to return this set but I like many of its features and I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations or tips on how to eliminate or reduce this effect as this is the only quirk that really bothers me about it. For those that are not sure what I am talking about, if you go up close to the TV you will see what looks like a swarm of mosquitoes or little green dots crawling all over the screen. This is most prevalent in the dark colors especially the blacks. I certainly never noticed this at the store and I am wondering if this is a defect in my unit or something all DLP's do. I suspect on the smaller DLP's this might not be as noticeable but on the 61' I can definetly see it. Anyone else?

Mccormick1

11-15-03, 08:35 PM

Steve O, this happens all the time even when I pause the movie. The blacks are totally black however the dark greys are full of visible noise. Literally looks like little green speckels flying all over the grey areas. Almost looks like if one was getting a weak signal with granines in the backgroud. Since this happened on the satelite feed through the Svideo connection I suspected maybe some external noise was being introduced. So I decided to try it using a DVI connection on a DVD player (Samsung 931) that supports DVI output in native 720p mode and figured this would have eliminated this problem but it did not. I agree with Ilkevin that you are not suppose to put your nose up to the TV when viewing, however after spending $4K+ I expected a much cleaner picture. Again, this may be normal and everyone accepts it in DLP, but I am surprised that more people have not complained about it, which leads me to believe that either my TV exhibits this more greatly or I just happen to notice it more.

TooLittleTimeZZZ

11-15-03, 10:01 PM

Isn't that the dithering of the low level signals to keep the DLP from showing banding?

Steve O

11-16-03, 01:46 PM

however after spending $4K+ I expected a much cleaner picture. The problem with DLP is that it shows a brutally honest representation of the signal being fed to it. If there's any noise in the signal, you'll see it. the dark greys are full of visible noiseCan you see it from far back? What are your brightness and contrast settings for those inputs? Have you changed anything in the service menu? Those answers would be very helpful in diagnosing whether your problem is really a "problem" or not.

-Steve

Mccormick1

11-16-03, 07:09 PM

I would assume that the signal coming through to the DVI intputs from the DVD player would be very clean, so I do not think it is a signal quality issue. As far as seeing it from far, no I cannot see it from far just up close. This happens on all preset video settings, Dynamic, movie, standard or if I custom set it myself. I have not gone into the service menu, after reading some people messing up their sets by doing so, I felt safer not trying it.

Maybe I am just not ready for DLP as I have also now noticed that color transitions are not smooth. For example when looking at a weather forecast, the blue background of the weather map was not smooth. The blues had a shimer to them with square boxes of lighter and darker blues. It kind of reminds me of playing a computer game in 16bit mode versus 32bit mode and looking at a nice sunset in the sky. In 16bit mode you can see banding in the sky in 32 bit mode it is a very smooth transition from light to dark. I seem to get the same thing. I was watching a Star Trek Gernerations last night and the ship was traveling through a nebulae and the cloud of the Nebulae was by no means smooth but had a lot of banding.

NikePenguin

11-16-03, 07:15 PM

The single biggest improvement to PQ can be made by changing gamma from 4 to 0 (or 5, as some are using in later firmware). I have found this elimnates banding and clay faces and just about eliminates dithering.

Steve O

11-16-03, 08:15 PM

I agree. The out-of-the-box picture is really horrible. Even messing with the user menu didn't really do it for me. Unfortunatly, things didn't look really good until I messed with the gamma setting. And the color banding was certainly an issue that got completely fixed after messing around with both the gamma and the user menu settings.

Mccormick1, you probably shouldn't at all be using the "dynamic", or "movie" settings. Their really quite horrible and are only there for the "wow" factor in the showroom. At a first pass, set it to custom, set color temp to Warm 1, set contrast to about 75-85, brightness about 50-60, sharpness about 15-25, color about 55-60, tint to about 50, Film mode "On", DNIe "off" and digital noise reduction "on" and see how that is. Then do some more reading here. You might read to tweak more.

I'm still convinced that what you're seeing is not a "damaged" set that's acting in an abnormal way. I just don't think it's set up well yet. That said, some people still end up not liking the picture of a DLP set as it is very revealing of the source material. If since you're spending four big ones, you'd better LOVE the picture.

-Steve

jdawg21

11-16-03, 10:07 PM

Hey Steve O, I have a Samsung HLN4365 and I personally am new to this. I was wondering what TV you have and what your excat settings are for your TV. I have had my tv and I am enjoying it. I mainly use the Movie Or Dynamic setting and I am mainly satisfied with the picture on most movies/games. Any suggustions? Thanks a lot.

wrahn

11-17-03, 04:16 PM

I have the HLN467 ver. 302 and bought the DVE DVD to try to tweak my set. I also used a JVC DVD Player on Component 1. The Gamma is at the factory setting of 4.

My experiences with tweaking using the DVE DVD were not that positive. Not only is it difficult to navigate through the DVD's menu system, but the DVD is not really designed for the DLPs. The first adjustment which adjusts the brightness instructs the user to adjust using three black bars. When looking at my HLN 467 I never did see the outer bar which is the "below" black bar. I only saw the center bar (4% above) black bar and the inter (2% above) black bar. I followed instructions and ended with a BRIGHTNESS setting of 55. I could not adjust the contrast since the instructions are for a CRT and the adjustment is based on a white box blooming, which didn't happen with the 467. The next adjustment was for the color and used three different colored filters while looking at a modified color chart. I was able to adjust the color using the blue filter. But the red filter was only fair and the green looked bad. During this adjustment one is asked to select an "accurate color mode", which I never was able to figure out. I ended with a COLOR setting of 40. The Sharpness adjustment didn't seem to have any effect both with DNIe on or off. I left it at about 25. I also left the tint at the 50/50 position.

Based on the results of the color adjustment the DVD insturctions seem to indicate the results pointed to a less than great color decoder. However, in HD mode I get a great picture and in SD mode it varies from good to fair based on the program channel and if it's an analog or digital signal. I do however have a greenish tint through out the different programs.

While I'm a novice at tweaking the DLP I do have electronics experience and even built a Heath kit color crt TV back in the 70's. However, IMHO tread lightly into the SM of the DLP or accept the set as it is, or spring for a calibration from an expert.

Wes

Mccormick1

11-17-03, 04:18 PM

Well I finally got enough guts to mess with the service menu. I have version 306 and changed the gamma settings and found 0 to be the best. Seems to take away most of the banding and definetly gets rid of the sunburn faces. The green crawly things are still there upon close view but from what I hear that just seems to be the way the technology works. I did lower the green to 115 as it was set to 120 as I also had the neon green everyone talks about. 115 helps and adjusting the tint solved the rest.

I think I will just see how I get use to this TV over the next couple of weeks and decide if this is the way I want to go or not. I guess I was expecting a more perfect picture after hearing all the hipe about HDTV. In summary, it is a great picture but I just do not know if it is any better than a 65' regular projection TV that cost half the price. I read somewhere that these TV's (DLP and LCD) only show 16 bit color. Is this true, do CRT's and regular projection TV's show 32 bit color? This may explain why the color transitions are not perfect.

TooLittleTimeZZZ

11-17-03, 08:03 PM

DLP technology controls the light level for a color by turning a pixel's mirror on for a few milliseconds and then off for a few. The quantization it uses for control of the on/off interval isn't enough to keep the levels from being distinct to the eye in the shadows. That's partially because the eye is most sensitive to small differences in the shadows. In general, it takes roughly 10 bits of linear quantization to make shadow differences indistinct.

It doesn't look anything like 16 bit color to me, but closer to 24-bit linear. Note that PCs use 24-bits gamma encoded, which is close to quantizing in a way that matches the eye's sensitivity.

So... they have to dither (add noise) in the shadows to hide the banding.

My guess is that a future DLP chip will have more quantization levels and won't need the dithering.

Instarx

11-17-03, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by rodneyremington
I I watched Spy Kids 2 last night on comcast high definition, HBO I think it was, and the PQ was absolutely STUNNING. Even my wife was raving about how much better it looked than the DVD, which we own and have watched several times with kids.
Rodney,
I have not felt the need to get into the SM for my Samsung either. Picture quality adjustments from the UM have been all I have needed although I am tempted to fiddle with the gamma setting. Try your DVDs with an HTPC. It doesn't have to be anything special (aka expensive) - I have a mid-level processor and a mid-level video card (with DVI) and my better quality DVDs look as good as the HD signal from TWC. The improvement over my dedicated DVD player is very noticable, particularly using DVI which is a great PQ improver. Maybe the HD signal would look better than the HTPC if my set-top box had DVI output, but it doesn't. Although my DVD player is theoretically hooked up to the Samsung 507 I never expect to use it again after attaching the HTPC. Plus, with a remote keyboard and mouse my 507 doubles as a wonderful 16:9 PC monitor.

roomex

11-19-03, 10:30 AM

I'm the happy (ecstatic) owner of a 507 (3 weeks). One slight annoyance is the following:

When in letterbox the right edge of the picture area shows slight curvature (pincussion?). Is there a tweak in SM for this? I haven't gone there yet.

Nearly all my viewing is done using Boston Metrowest Comcast with their MOT 5100 STB. No DVI yet, so using Component. Really impressive PQ. One annoyance there is that on some network programming (CBS) not carried in HD by Comcast the STB loses audio lip sync. This doesn't happen in another room viewing the same program with a MOT Digital (non HD) STB. I realize this is the wrong thread for this problem.

Iceblade

11-19-03, 10:35 AM

No, there are no geometry correction settings within the DLP Service Menu (or anywhere else). If your picture is tilted one way or another it has been theorized that a service tech can reposition the light engine assembly and correct for it somewhat. Other than that... your geometry is what it is from the factory. You CAN change horizontal and vertical position in the SM though.

Regs,
Jeff

Originally posted by roomex
I'm the happy (ecstatic) owner of a 507 (3 weeks). One slight annoyance is the following:

When in letterbox the right edge of the picture area shows slight curvature (pincussion?). Is there a tweak in SM for this? I haven't gone there yet.

Nearly all my viewing is done using Boston Metrowest Comcast with their MOT 5100 STB. No DVI yet, so using Component. Really impressive PQ. One annoyance there is that on some network programming (CBS) not carried in HD by Comcast the STB loses audio lip sync. This doesn't happen in another room viewing the same program with a MOT Digital (non HD) STB. I realize this is the wrong thread for this problem.

wallachs

11-20-03, 07:43 AM

Anyone experiencing what I have, which is a worst picture since the upgrade, I have been tweaking the last 3 nights with mixed results, anyone have any SM Tweaks on 306?

CraigSharrow

11-20-03, 11:58 AM

This problem is occurring in a Samsung HLN5065 with v.3.06 firmware:
---------------------------------------------------

Just noticed this last week while watching West Wing in HDTV (although I don't think it was the HD signal causing the problem).

At various times, and for no apparent reason that I can determine (i.e. "headlights in the picture"), I see whispy light areas that look like tendrils of smoke or the type of glare that you get when a bit of direct sunlight strikes the lense of a camera . I don't know if you'd call them "halos" or what? This seems to occur when there is a brighter area somewhere within the dark scene.

This is most noticeable during low-to-mid-light level scenes, i.e. dimly lit interior shots and night shots.

I'm guessing that this is being caused by some type of internal reflections within the HLN projector area?

[I did a search in several AVS forums, but my search terms didn't seem to hit]

Thoughts, suggestions, solutions?

Thanks,
craig@sharrow.com

Iceblade

11-20-03, 12:11 PM

Craig,

There are about 5 different threads on this topic... guess your search terms were freaking out.

Anyway, the long and short of it is that it has to do with the light engine itself, so using Devtyne or something else on the innards of your set to cut down on "internal reflections" will be pointless. Some people here have mentioned that there is a new beta lens assembly that is purported to address this issue. At least one if not more forum members have this new assembly... or are scheduled to receive it. It remains to be seen if this truly solves the issue. Some people see IR, some people don't. Personally, I think you would have to be blind as a bat to miss the IR on my 61" set.

So join the rest of us sitting on the sidelines waiting to hear what can be done, I guess. :(

Later,
Jeff

Originally posted by CraigSharrow
This problem is occurring in a Samsung HLN5065 with v.3.06 firmware:
---------------------------------------------------

Just noticed this last week while watching West Wing in HDTV (although I don't think it was the HD signal causing the problem).

At various times, and for no apparent reason that I can determine (i.e. "headlights in the picture"), I see whispy light areas that look like tendrils of smoke or the type of glare that you get when a bit of direct sunlight strikes the lense of a camera . I don't know if you'd call them "halos" or what? This seems to occur when there is a brighter area somewhere within the dark scene.

This is most noticeable during low-to-mid-light level scenes, i.e. dimly lit interior shots and night shots.

I'm guessing that this is being caused by some type of internal reflections within the HLN projector area?

[I did a search in several AVS forums, but my search terms didn't seem to hit]

Thoughts, suggestions, solutions?

Thanks,
craig@sharrow.com

vravo

11-21-03, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by Steve O

Mccormick1, you probably shouldn't at all be using the "dynamic", or "movie" settings. Their really quite horrible and are only there for the "wow" factor in the showroom. At a first pass, set it to custom, set color temp to Warm 1, set contrast to about 75-85, brightness about 50-60, sharpness about 15-25, color about 55-60, tint to about 50, Film mode "On", DNIe "off" and digital noise reduction "on" and see how that is. Then do some more reading here. You might read to tweak more.

-Steve

Steve O
Why turn the DNIe off i thought that was to make a clearer picture??? I have mine on... I'm trying to pick up the tweaks in the boards, MY 61" is only a week old... i have printed about a few tweaks to try... What Don't you like about the DNIe???? The one thing i think i did notice was before i got Digtal cable hooked up a few days a go, i could swear that the regular standard cable right out of the wall looked clearer then now when it goes the Digtal HD reciever.... The HD part looks great to me though.... i'm going to disconnect it and see if my mind is playing tricks on me... My friends are comming over this weekend and i want to make a good showing of the TV so i going to make a few adjustments but not many for fear of screwing it up... But then again i don't want to just show them PBS HD the whole time... most likely football, but that is not the best showing unless it is in broadcasted HD in my opinion...

:confused:

Sea Ray

11-21-03, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by vravo
Steve O
Why turn the DNIe off i thought that was to make a clearer picture??? The one thing i think i did notice was before i got Digtal cable hooked up a few days a go, i could swear that the regular standard cable right out of the wall looked clearer then now when it goes the Digtal HD reciever.... The HD part looks great to me though... most likely football, but that is not the best showing unless it is in broadcasted HD in my opinion...

:confused:

I think it looks best with it on but you can judge for yourself. It has a DNIe test where you can see side by side how it looks.

As for analog through the box or not, I originally thought the same thing and actually it's easier for football if you run it through ANT anyway. That way you can watch a couple games at once side by side. That should impress your friends. I figured out my 43" set when in PIP side by side it showed two 22" screens and even in analog they look pretty nice when shrunk down to that size. That's pretty impressive to show off to your buddies.

As far as picture clarity, if it's a strong signal you'll probably get a better picture through the digital box. But play around with it and find out. If you have HD use those channels even if there is no HD programming at that moment. For example if a game is on a major network but not on HD (like say OSU/MI) go to the ABC HD channel. Even though it might not be broadcast in HD, the digital feed will be much better than the analog feed. It really does make a big difference. Ditto for NFL games not broadcast in HD on Sundays.

I find that analog is not wonderful but very watchable on the DLP especially when you consider how much you're blowing up the picture. Analog feeds really weren't meant to be blown up to big screens. Be sure to crank down the color (to about 30) and the contrast (maybe 70). I prefer warm 1 or warm 2 on analog.

Enjoy. I know I am.

jotter

11-21-03, 12:59 PM

For those that care I've recently calibrated by HLM437 using Colorfacts. Results here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2954094#post2954094

drgolf

11-21-03, 02:50 PM

I bought a Sammy HLN5065 from Sears about 3 weeks ago. Price match is a great thing. I am technically OK but not a video expert. I love this TV, it is my first large screen.

I do have some issues that I would like to ask for some help with.

I am using local cable, Charter Communications with no HD yet. I have a Motorola Cable Box. I am getting the best picture from the composite outputs. The RF output has some background audio noise and the S video has visible moving lines. I have tried multiple cables and different S-video inputs. I don't know the correct term but it is the scan lines or sync lines you see when you see a TV monitor on a TV. My question is it a bad cable box or am I missing something.

Also, using cable, I see a huge difference between broadcast stations. The greens are the main problem. I have gotten the neon green toned down some by changing the G-Gain to a lower number. I did change my gamma to 0 from the default of 4. The issue is that it only happens on a few channels and then only on some of their video. I have had some faces get a green tint to sections of the face. Of course I have gotten into the SM very cautiously. I waited until the lamp had 100 hours before making any of the changes. I am now at 156 hours.

DVD's from my Progressive Scan Toshiba seem to be very good using Component 1.

Any suggestions?

Michael.Chrisco

11-21-03, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by jotter
For those that care I've recently calibrated by HLM437 using Colorfacts. Results here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2954094#post2954094
Newbie here...
Thanks I liked looking at the graphs.
Question though, looking at your before graph couldn't you have just brought down the blue to get them all level? Instead of changing the gamma? Have you noticed the dithering and/or banding reduced with the lower gamma?
I have a 507 w/302 and wonder if before you did this is you saw purple lips on people (sometimes) and the NFL Vikings purple colors to be blue. It would seem that those would be symptoms of blue being to strong on mine.

Thanks

jotter

11-21-03, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by Michael.Chrisco
Newbie here...
Thanks I liked looking at the graphs.
Question though, looking at your before graph couldn't you have just brought down the blue to get them all level? Instead of changing the gamma? Have you noticed the dithering and/or banding reduced with the lower gamma?
I have a 507 w/302 and wonder if before you did this is you saw purple lips on people (sometimes) and the NFL Vikings purple colors to be blue. It would seem that those would be symptoms of blue being to strong on mine.

Thanks

I think I should post the "before" graphs for the luminance curve as well as the RGB values. The gamma value effects how grey values (and colors) get displayed at different "brightnesses" on a display. A 10IRE grey is really dark, near black, and a 90IRE is nearly white. What you want is a TV which makes these greys appear at the right "level" on a smooth curve. If you look at Gamma 4 it shows a REALLY odd curve - which seems to make the middle colors really "bright" to stand out - perfect for a showroom and what we're normally used to.

Colorfacts gives you an overal luminance value representing what curve best fits what your TV is outputting at various values of grey. 2.2 is a value for NTSC standard. 2.6 (I think) is HDTV (darker overall).

So what you want is a curve which looks like a curve - not really like what gamma 4 produces, which has a luminance value between 2.2 and 2.6. Choosing different gamma values gives you different curves and different values.

Once you have chosen your best curve you then adjust the red, blue and green mix to make sure each "grey" really consists of the right balance of the colors. As you can see from my "before" RGB - the blue was way too high - and red and green weren't that good either. I could have just left my Gamma on 4 and calibrated the colors - which would have produced a better picture anyway - but I also adjusted the gamma curve to give me a more accurate (although some would argue - and are - less attractive) picture.

In essence the two are slightly different things and if I would have liked to try getting the colors right on gamma 4 to see what it looked it - but I was only borrowing the colorfacts unit so ran out of time for that.

One of the problems with all *my* luminance histograms is that if you look at the lower IREs (the dark greys) the curve is below the line - this means that shadows will be overly dark whereas the other grey levels are spot on - meaning they will be presented correctly.

Oh, also you can't really just "turn down" blue independently as adjusting one color actually effects them all. Turning down blue would cause red to rise almost proportionally (and green to go up a little too). Turning green up reduces both red and blue. Its a balancing procedure which is why you really need some type of external unit to measure whats actually being put out and to see what adjusting one color is actually doing.

Hope that helps a little - and I'm sure people with more knowledge will correct me where I'm wrong.

Jonathan

Michael.Chrisco

11-21-03, 04:51 PM

Thanks, just shows I need to have someone else that knows this stuff and has the right equipment do this.
It is nice to slightly understand it too.

svwindshadow

11-21-03, 09:56 PM

just purchased a hln4365 from sears only had it two days ... built sept 03 have not been in the sm yet..will wait until my dvi cable for htpc is here..first impressions noise level very low can not hear unless sound level is all the way down and standing very close(less than 2 feet) from set..pc connect with db15 (waiting for dvi cable) xp home fx5200 w/52.16 using 1280/720 rez. tv wide almost no overscan..pc wide approx 1inch black bars around desktop.. and text a little less clear but still very good.. have not made any coarse or fine adjustments because I am using tv wide .....games and programs I have work except civ III and swat 3 can not get them to run 1280/720 but have not played with the setting yet.. the greens seem to be a little bright on the pc input and the sm adjustments will be made per the rec. on this thread... the std.cable pq is so much better than i had hoped for after reading post...dvd and hd content thru pc/db15 is outstanding.. with only 10-15 hour viewing pq very good ,slight green push ,but no other issues (I may have seen 1 rainbow) Rick

hp96

11-21-03, 11:37 PM

Im the owner of 437w for 2 months, it's calibrated by ISF tech. got my samsung t160 today, very disappointed with SD channels, i am using dvi packed with t160. my old hughes e86 is much better. HD channel is good though. does any one using t10 with sammy dlp? i would like to hear your opinions. I have it set on 720p out like everyone says. i get very noisy picture on SD channels. am i missing something here..

Michael.Chrisco

11-22-03, 09:03 PM

hp96,
I have a 507 w/302 and moving sharpness way down to 10 made a difference on SD for me.

GrndMstrUseless

11-24-03, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by vravo
Steve O
The one thing i think i did notice was before i got Digtal cable hooked up a few days a go, i could swear that the regular standard cable right out of the wall looked clearer then now when it goes the Digtal HD reciever.... The HD part looks great to me though.... i'm going to disconnect it and see if my mind is playing tricks on me...

:confused:

It's not playing tricks on you. Comcast sends broadcast analog over the same cable requiring your dandy new Moto-whatever (I've got the same one) to digest it and then try to display it via 480p or whatever you've got yours set to.

I think it's a royal pain in the ass and I'm going to try to set up a decent antenna to get OTA HDTV... I'm tired of switching back-and-forth between Comcast's BOX (comp 3) and the cable coming straight out of the wall. soon my Samsung sir-351t will have a DVI connection and we'll see if I can get the signals out of Seattle.

robmark

11-24-03, 09:59 PM

I purchased a Samsung HLN617W last Monday and spent all last week reading the forum about the pros and cons, service menu, tweaks, etc. It arrived this past Saturday at 4:30. At 5:00 we were watching DVDs via the Samsung DVD w/DVI output.

Out of the box, with no changes to any settings, the picture was and still is fantastic. We started with "Finding Nemo" and then put the kids to bed and watched "The Matrix". Even my wife, who is not exactly what I would call a "videophile" was impressed.

I appreciate reading all the comments from those who truly are into tweaking, and I expect at some point in time, I will do some tweaking, simply because it's my nature. However, for anyone contemplating this purchase, I would not let the 24+ pages of pros and cons scare you off. This is one INCREDIBLE television.

Robert

jeff_s1520

11-24-03, 10:52 PM

Alas, I too fell for the lure of the magical Sammy, except it is a 50" HLN 5065W. I made some minor tweeks to the user settings, and so far, 3 days, I have been really pleased with the set. We took advantage of 24 months no interest financing at BB, plus a little discount. It is really great because it is so easy to move compared to our old RPTV.

Those looking for a stand: try a Scandanavian import furniture store. We found a teak desk, on casters, 48" by 24", with a small shelf underneath, that is only 26" high, with the wheels. I can take off the wheels, cut down the sides if necessary, to make it lower, and it looks great.

We saw three sets at 3 stores and still liked the picture.

Jeff

hp96

11-27-03, 05:03 PM

jeff, check out ebay for a Bell'o plasma stand. i got mine for $150 includes shipping. its sold for $249 at BB. It looks beautiful with sammy on it ;)

kamshaft

11-30-03, 03:19 PM

I've had my HLN507W for 7 months now and have been satisfied with it OOTB until now. Never entered SM.

Our local Cox just released the SA3250HD boxes for this area which I installed using component 3
Although the HD channels looked great, I later realized the SD shadow detail is now non existant. Antenna imput restores shadow detail sightly but the image is still overall DARK. I now have the Contrast at 100 and the Brightness at 80 in order to get the shadow detail. But of course the blacks are now compromised.

My questions:
1. Is the bulb on its way out? If so, is there a way to check brightness or usage in the SM?

2. Do these SA 3250HD boxes routinely clip the shadow details?

My instinct is the bulb has become dimmer and the new box has added to the mix. Component 3 might need to be adjusted in the SM.

Thanks for any response.

kam

Sea Ray

12-01-03, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by kamshaft
I've had my HLN507W for 7 months now and have been satisfied with it OOTB until now. Never entered SM.

Our local Cox just released the SA3250HD boxes for this area which I installed using component 3
Although the HD channels looked great, I later realized the SD shadow detail is now non existant. Antenna imput restores shadow detail sightly but the image is still overall DARK. I now have the Contrast at 100 and the Brightness at 80 in order to get the shadow detail. But of course the blacks are now compromised.

Thanks for any response.

kam

First of all, I don't think shadow detail is one of this sets strong points but let's talk about your problem. If it is dark on ANT (no cable box) then the box is not to blame. Is DVD fine? If HD, DVD and digital stations are fine, I tend to think you've got typical weak analog reception. If Cox checked your signal and it is OK then step in line for those of us that feel analog is only "watchable" on an HD set

CraigSharrow

12-04-03, 06:19 PM

Bought an HLN5065 about 45 days ago (so the BB return policy time period has expired)

I've done all the tweaks recommended in this forum and yet there are still two (design-flaw) problems that are driving me crazy:

1. Poor shadow-detail -- washed-out, muddy low-light level scenes regardless of whether the source is HDTV, SDTV, or DVD

2. Internal Reflections (like "camera-shooting-into-sun" lens flare) that put ghostly light-whisps on the screen opposite bright areas in low-to-mid- light-level scenes.

My understanding that both of these issues are inherent to the design of the Samsung DLP system, and not something that you can tweak out.

If true, this is unacceptable in a $4000 product.

So....

(a) any fixes?
(b) has anyone spoken to a real person at Samsung and gotten a satisfactory answer to either of these two problems
(c) if "yes" to above, please PM me their name & phone number

-- I don't really want to get into the dial 1-800-SAMSUNG customer service queue and be frustrated by a $10/hour CSR who can't fix the problem and can't/won't escalate to someone who can.

Since these issues have been discussed on a number of occasions in these Forums, there must a bunch of Sammy owners experiencing this problem.
I would assume that we owners would like to get it resolved, or perhaps register some sort of class-action complaint with the folks at Samsung.

craig@sharrow.com

gels

12-04-03, 06:41 PM

I had problems with my HLM 61 - they were unable to get anyone near me to come and service it.

Finally they replaced it with HLN for FREE.

And this week came and installed the upgrade -

Just stay onto them and ask for their Digital Department CSR's

Good Luck

Geoffrey

PS Don't tell them you've been tweakin it - I'm sure you know that:)

jb510

12-05-03, 01:39 AM

This boggles the mind… when did everyone decide the internet was the BEST and ONLY resource for customer service? I mean there is GREAT info here on AVS, but there is also plenty that is just plain wrong… Customer service isn’t the wasteland so many pessimists around here seem to think it is… and often it’s the right place to be going for some issues.
Originally posted by CraigSharrow
Bought an HLN5065 about 45 days ago (so the BB return policy time period has expired)

Have you tried? Counting the number of times I’ve had a reputable company like BB honor a return or warranty outside the stated date range would take at least all of my fingers and many of my toes…

1. Poor shadow-detail -- washed-out, muddy low-light level scenes regardless of whether the source is HDTV, SDTV, or DVD

Many people have tweaked their displays and improved/resolved this issue. Like virtually every display out there is needs to be properly calibrated. i.e. adjust gamma, brightness, contrast, and probably also the RGB Gains/Cuts. This is often best accomplished by professional calibrator if you really want it done right. Again this is a problem with nearly every commercially available display… not just the HLN’s

2. Internal Reflections (like "camera-shooting-into-sun" lens flare) that put ghostly light-whisps on the screen opposite bright areas in low-to-mid- light-level scenes.

I don’t see internal reflection on my 56 unless I’m off-axis and within 5 feet of the screen. Having read the major threads on this I’d say that MOST people don’t have internal reflection issues. If you really do have IR issues from a normal viewing ANGLE and DISTANCE complain to Samsung! You might get a new set…

(b) has anyone spoken to a real person at Samsung and gotten a satisfactory answer to either of these two problems
(c) if "yes" to above, please PM me their name & phone number

-- I don't really want to get into the dial 1-800-SAMSUNG customer service queue and be frustrated by a $10/hour CSR who can't fix the problem and can't/won't escalate to someone who can.

really… call.. then complain… complaining before you even call is contemptible…

johnevo

12-05-03, 08:57 AM

I agree... you need to call and make sure you have all of the info you can. Also, if you don't like the answer... call back!

Also, it sounds like your TV needs to be professionally calibrated. I think that would make a world of difference for you. As to the reflection problem, Samsung has just come out with a new replacement lens, E10. You can call a local service center and order it (under warranty).

joewagner501

12-05-03, 09:20 AM

I have had my Sammy 507 since October 16th. I had the problem with shadows but as the set has aged they have gone away. I still see a little but that may be just me because nobody else sees it. I think the light has to burn in (this has been mentioned before) before you get the best color/brightness/contrast.

As for the reflection issue, the only time I have ever seen it was when I sat too low. i.e. sitting on the floor and looking up at the tv or having the tv on a high stand. Once I moved myself to a normal viewing angle it completely goes away. Maybe you are sitting too low and should raise your seat or lower the tv. I know this sounds kind of funky for a $4000 set but you have to remember this isn't a direct view tv but a projection tv. That means there are certain limitations to it.

I hope this helps.

jb510

12-05-03, 09:59 AM

On the off-axis / internal reflection issue... DLP's are defiantly poor off-axis up/down so it's critical to locate the display at the correct elevation. I'd point out however that the DLP's are much better off-axis left/right than CRT RP's.

Has anyone with the IR problem commented as to the viewing angle they are seeing IR at? up/down left/right? I don't recall seeing this in any of the IR posts.

rshear

12-05-03, 10:23 AM

2. Internal Reflections (like "camera-shooting-into-sun" lens flare) that put ghostly light-whisps on the screen opposite bright areas in low-to-mid- light-level scenes.

I noticed this too, but determined I had my brightness/contrast set incorrectly. If you use a DVD like Digital Video Essentials it will help you set these so you will not have this problem. Many of the out of the box settings are set so the TV will look good in a showroom. In your house you have much more control over the lighting and need to adjust the settings down in most cases.

-Rob

Your User Name:

12-05-03, 10:44 AM

I purchased a HLN507w (fw306) exactly one week ago. Should I wait for the lamp to break in before trying to calibrate? I was able to improve things to my eye using the UM, but would like to truly calibrate the set. Also, having never done anything like this before, should I look into professional calibration or is it reasonably easy to do using DVE?

jb510

12-05-03, 11:18 AM

You can calibrate now, but you you'll want the check and possible recalibrate again in a month.

To calibrate this display correctly you really need professional hardware to set gray scale, RGB gain/cut.

IMHO, DVE does nothing new vs. VE and Avia, and is only "good" for setting brightness/contrast. Frankly I think Avia was better for adjusting color/tint.

Check out three GREAT threads on calibrating:
Samsung v302 colorfacts calibration results
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=328421

How to use calibration disks' test patterns
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=318977

Gama O is not the way to go on Sammy DLP (long post)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=316560

although I'd personally say Gamma 0 is the way to go IF you're actually calibrating EVERYTHING else...

Your User Name:

12-05-03, 11:24 AM

So if I don't have pro hardware, I should get a professional calibration? I can rent DVE from my local video store. Are you saying it wll only help me with the UM, not the SM tweaks?

Also, I've checked out other threads, but it doesn't seem like any calibration recommendations have surfaced for the the 306 fw yet.

CraigSharrow

12-06-03, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by jb510 … complaining before you even call is contemptible… [/B]

Based on my often-less-than-satisfactory-experience with a number of technology software, hardware and service vendors -- particularly their first tier customer service reps (who had a knowledge level which made it appear that they had been selling shoes the day before I called)-- and having read other people's "CHALLENGES" in dealing with SAMSUNG PRODUCT PROBLEMS -- I don't think my asking whether there was any SUCCESSFUL problem resolution and whether other Sammy owners were as frustrated as I am was out of line.

By the way, the reply I got to my correspondence with Samsung was an email stating, in total:

"For better assistance please call our Customer Care Center at 1-800-SAMSUNG between 9:00 am to 9:00 pm EST Monday to Friday and one of our representatives will help you"

The above was not the first "we've received your correspondence and this is an automatic reply", rather this was the reply received once they'd assigned a case number to my complaint. In other words, they said, "now get into the queue and stand there for a while."

wrahn

12-06-03, 04:39 PM

As one who has the DVE and tried to tweak my HLN467, I would suggest you go the professional route if you're unhappy with your set's PQ. IMHO unless you know what you're doing the DVD won't help you with the SM and the adjustments for the UM are very limited. Doing the tweaking is not for the novice TV watcher.

Wes

robvee

12-09-03, 09:36 AM

I accidentally changed the setting in the DNle menu for PROC SET. It was at 102. After changing it, I could only go back and change it to either 230 or 255. (230 seems to disable the DNle function- 255, DNle is on)
Does anyone know how to change this setting or in fact does it matter?

Thanks
Rob

Mccormick1

12-09-03, 10:26 PM

Well, it has been almost 30 days since I got my Samsung 61 DLP and to follow up from my first posts several weeks ago, I am in the final stages of having to decide whether to keep this set or not. Aside from some of the previous complaints I have had with the set, I have come to live with the Mosquito like graininess that appears when looking at the set up close but I do have 2 issues that are of major concern to me. The banding that occurs through the color transitions and the extreme lack of detail in dark scenes. The later one has become more and more of an issue as I just cannot seem to get any detail in dark scenes. While the blacks are black that is basically it, all dark scenes are black with no definition whatsoever. Now, I do not know if LCD's or plasma's have the same problem I just do not recall observing this with my previous CRT projection TV. Last week I went back to the store I purchased this set from to look at the Sony GW's to see if I might want to switch, and while all sets look great at the store, I am having a hard time deciding whether I would be switching from bad to worse. Again, I suspect my expectations where very high after spending $4K+ and maybe the LCD's and plasma's are not going to be any better. I did look at the Sony GW forum and did not find anywhere near the amount of complaints or tweackings from the Sony owners as I have seen in this forum with users going into setup menus, gama correction and so forth. When I purchase a TV for that kind of money I expect it to be up and running out of the box and should not expect to have to go through all that calibration or other tweakings that everyone else seems to do. So I guess my question is, has any DLP owners had any experience with any of the Sony GW's between 50 and 70' and have they switched to the Samsung DLP's and why or vice versa? Obviously I would prefer not to go through all the hassles or returning my set, so any comparisons to help me decide would be appreciated. Another option I am also considering is just giving up on the sleek smallers DLP's/LCD's and just go for a strait CRT projection TV.

mhz40

12-10-03, 06:15 AM

Lets face it... mpeg is compression. Dithering is an inherent artifact (tradeoff) in mpeg compression.
IMO, LCD has the same problem as DLP with blacks... only the LCD's blacks are gray. If you think you have mosquito graininess on DLP, you have a screen door on the LCD's that in my opinion are worse.
I have a Pioneer plasma at work and I am not impressed. There are what I would describe as dithering artifacts in the pictures and the left/right edges of the screen are discolored where the 4:3 picture normally ends. I call it burn-in, but others would argue the point. Whatever you call it, it doesn't go away and it's not what I would want to see on my $5k plasma screen.
I think part of the reason there is so much discussion about the Sammys is because they are more tweak-able.
If you want CRT quality (and baggage), go with a Pioneer Elite for what will probably be less money. You can also investigate LCOS for more money... or wait for the next great technology to be deployed.
One thing I do know is that after you have lived with HD for a month, you won't ever be happy with a SD picture again.
I looked for 6 months for a HD set only to discover there is no perfect large-form display hardware available yet. I compromised with the Sammy. If you are not willing to compromise, I suggest you hold off on any new purchase.

rshear

12-10-03, 07:15 AM

You mention that you did not want to have to do any tweaking. The true story is that it is impossible for the manufactures to create a singe setting that is going to look good in ever possible lighting situation. The reason you have to tweak the set at home is because your light/viewing distance, and picture preferences are different from everyone else. If you don't feel comfortable doing the tweaking yourself hire a professional to do it for you.

One thing to note about store viewing. They will often have the TV's set to a very high brightness to have the TV stand out and overcome the lights in the store.

-Rob

wrahn

12-10-03, 09:52 AM

I can't help you with the Sony question, but will offer my opinion about keeping the DLP. If I were you, I'd return it and wait until the "bugs" are worked out. By then, the sets will be cheaper and there will be more HD channels to watch. You can continue to follow this site to track the different options and improvements.

While I didn't follow this advice and didn't return my HLN467, if you're not sure what you want, then wait until you are.
Wes

Clamhead

12-10-03, 01:48 PM

To keep or not to keep:

I am assuming that you are watching SD material (as do I - via DishTV), and I agree that the picture is mostly crap. The sets all looked good at the local BB where I got mine, however, the picture you are looking at in the stores is generally a DVD with their programming material on it that loops continuosly, so all the TV's will look pretty darn good.

I knew this when making my decision, but I purchased with more of an eye to the future, with HD programming, DVD players with DVI output (which I am tremendously enjoying now).

If you want something to view SD material on exclusively, I would say you have the wrong TV set.

wrahn

12-10-03, 09:49 PM

I'm connected to comcast cable and have HD on about eight channels at this time. My HD cable box doesn't have DVI, however the HD channels are awesome using component 3. The movie channels are in digital and are good. The PQ is not as good as HD, but in time they will all be HD. I bought the 46 inch because it fits in my cabinet and is light in weight. I have the rainbows and the green tint, but decided overall the Samsung DLP was not bad and if I waited there might not be a 43 or 46 in the next models. My wife is happy and we had the money, so I didn't return it.

I bought at Sound Advice (Tweeter) and they allow 60 days for returns. Not bad if one needs time to decide. I still believe if one is not in a hurry to have HD, it's best to wait until there are more HD choices on TV and the price and number of bugs are down. I do however enjoy what I do have.

Clamhead

12-11-03, 08:58 AM

I don't have HD yet, but this set is not our primary set so it's not a big deal for us. I have the HLN50" and we use it mostly for watching DVD's. I'm glad to hear that HD looks good, because that & DVD's is why I bought it. Plus, I was not going to spend $$$ for a 50" display of any type.

60 day return policy is pretty good. Have you thought (or can you bear the thought of it) about returning the set, and waiting to see what happens with plasma?
I mention this due to the recent publicity regarding how all the major manufacturers are going to be getting into plasma in a big way in the 1-2 years and the prices should drop dramatically. However, plasma has it's drawbacks as well.

I don't have an issue with green tint. I found that by adjusting the red & green gains in the SM down to where it really looks good, then following up with the Avia disc, got mine looking really good (took the red push & greenish tint out) if you want to try that approach. Keep in mind that I am still talking SD picture.

Ozoner

12-12-03, 10:08 PM

I just found this thread a few days ago and read it entirely. I have a Samsung HLN567W that I purchased 6 weeks ago and I am very happy with the quality of the picture. My main problem with the monitor, which really began to hamper my enthusiasm, was the apparent green hue in shadowy areas of dark scenes. I contacted Samsung and they sent an authorized service technician to my home to try to correct the problem. The tech spent only 10 minutes at my home and left scratching his head not knowing what to do. I contacted Samsung again and they are apparently working on the problem.

I read this forum and decided to go ahead and enter my SM and make a few changes. All I did was set gamma to (0) and turn back the Green gain from 120 to 112. I did this to all of the inputs that I watch my DVD player through. The component (1) and the DVI. The results were incredible! The green shadows are gone and the colors are more natural in flesh tones. Yellows are yellow, instead of greenish-yellow. And I did not experience any sunburned faces or off colors. Thanks guys!!! Now I can really sit back and enjoy watching my Sammy without being plagued by the green hue in dark areas and flesh tones.

My only question now is.... What do I say when Samsung calls back and wants to send those service techs to my home again?

ender21

12-12-03, 10:42 PM

My only question now is.... What do I say when Samsung calls back and wants to send those service techs to my home again?

"Don't bother. I'll live with it. Thanks anyway. But you *can* come out and fix my internal reflection problem." ;)

Rick

Sea Ray

12-13-03, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by Ozoner

I read this forum and decided to go ahead and enter my SM and make a few changes. All I did was set gamma to (0) and turn back the Green gain from 120 to 112. The results were incredible! The green shadows are gone and the colors are more natural in flesh tones. Yellows are yellow, instead of greenish-yellow. And I did not experience any sunburned faces or off colors. Thanks guys!!! Now I can really sit back and enjoy watching my Sammy without being plagued by the green hue in dark areas and flesh tones.

My only question now is.... What do I say when Samsung calls back and wants to send those service techs to my home again?

Way to go. That's pretty much how I handled the same problem. The tech they sent out here couldn't even spell calibration on a good day. He had no idea about a service menu and had to be shown that there was no tint adjustment on the UM in component inputs. I fiddled with mine for about a month starting with the gains, but lately I've been fine tuning with the offsets. When you find after watching it for a couple of weeks that you no longer have the urge to tweak, you know you've got it about right.

As for Samsung you've only got a problem with them if you are unhappy with your tweaks and you want them to undo what you've done. As a company they have a problem that these sets need these "tweaks" but there aren't enough people qualified (trained) to do the work so us owners are forced to tweak it ourselves. I've had this discussion with Samsung. If you really want to drive 'em nuts ask them for a name of someone who "can" professionally calibrate your set. After they give you the names of a couple bozos who do no more than tweak your UM, they'll really start to spin things. I've been there done that.

You handled it the exact way I did and now the result is the same: we're both pleased with our Sammys.