Maybe you can program your shut-down macro to switch to an unused source (no audio) or your DVD player.

Ken

Originally posted by Clamhead
I don't have HD yet, but this set is not our primary set so it's not a big deal for us. I have the HLN50" and we use it mostly for watching DVD's. I'm glad to hear that HD looks good, because that & DVD's is why I bought it. Plus, I was not going to spend $$$ for a 50" display of any type.

60 day return policy is pretty good. Have you thought (or can you bear the thought of it) about returning the set, and waiting to see what happens with plasma?
I mention this due to the recent publicity regarding how all the major manufacturers are going to be getting into plasma in a big way in the 1-2 years and the prices should drop dramatically. However, plasma has it's drawbacks as well.

I don't have an issue with green tint. I found that by adjusting the red & green gains in the SM down to where it really looks good, then following up with the Avia disc, got mine looking really good (took the red push & greenish tint out) if you want to try that approach. Keep in mind that I am still talking SD picture.
Hi!
I am a complete newbie to HDTV and need some help. Whatis the Avia disc,
where do I get it, How do i use it? I bought a Samsung HLN437W and i've got green tint, especially on my DVD player through the DVI, but on cable stations as well. I don't have an HDTV cable box yet. If the picture isn't going to be fantastic I can't justify the expense. Any help you could give would really be appreciated.

I was messing around in my SM yesterday and noticed that I can set my gamma past 5 to 15! Can anyone else do this or do people not because it makes the color bad?

I need advise. I also have the "green" tint problem with my new HLN507. Has someone been through this and can simply give step by step instructions as to the fix.

You can start by doing a search of this thread for "green tint."

Originally posted by reneirwolf878
I was messing around in my SM yesterday and noticed that I can set my gamma past 5 to 15! Can anyone else do this or do people not because it makes the color bad?

"Gamma" is an index to a whole table of values, not a single variable. Not all tables are filled with reasonable values. Mostly 0,1,2,4 have been considered best...

Okay, I thought I had a green tint problem, but the problem is restricted to VHS tapes and to the top third of my screen, and even then comes and goes. So obviously the problem is not with the TV. I tried changing cables, tapes, input ports -- no go. I guess the problem is with the VHS player itself. Any idea if this problem can be fixed with a cleaning or do I need to get a new VHS player (cheaper than getting a professional cleaning, probably, but I hate throwing away an otherwise great VCR).

Originally posted by reedwilliams2
I need advise. I also have the "green" tint problem with my new HLN507. Has someone been through this and can simply give step by step instructions as to the fix.

We had a minor green tint at first, but it went away after maybe 50 hours of viewing. I've read that the bulb has to be broken in. Patience may be the first thing to try.

Originally posted by dba
Okay, I thought I had a green tint problem, but the problem is restricted to VHS tapes and to the top third of my screen, and even then comes and goes. So obviously the problem is not with the TV. I tried changing cables, tapes, input ports -- no go. I guess the problem is with the VHS player itself. Any idea if this problem can be fixed with a cleaning or do I need to get a new VHS player (cheaper than getting a professional cleaning, probably, but I hate throwing away an otherwise great VCR).

ok, after owning the HNL50 for one week i must say this group has been a ton of help. Here's what i've found and what i'm still wondering. there is definetaly a green problem right out of the box. Reducing the gamma to 0 and backing off the g-gain to 112 helped! But it lost all the impact that made it stand out over the LCD screens. i've got the gamma up to 2 and it's better, but i'm still seeing a bit too much green. Will this go away as the bulb burns in? has anyone adjuested other color gains with favorable results? the color really looked great with the gamma at 4, it's just too much green!!

Hello Everyone,

I mentioned earlier in the forum that I was pretty successful in removing the dreaded "green tint" from my HLN567W by changing the Gamma to "0" and the Green gain to 112. Well, I was watching the "Hulk" DVD the other night (this movie can really put your Sammy through a workout) and noticed in a particular scene that the grays were just not right. Actually it was a scene of a wooden cabin with a stone base.

I froze that scene and went through the usual "melody off" "power, mute, 1,8,2, power" and went into the SM and changed the B-offset from 131 - 138. While doing this I noticed that the stones in the cabins base became true grey. After this adjustment was made I watched several other DVD sources (using the DVI input) and noticed a vast improvement in color quality overal. Greys were now true grey. To me, this made great improvement in picture quality.

You may want to experiment with this yourself and see what your results are. Remember, the adjust was made on the B-OFFSET. Not the G-offset.

I don't believe that the service techs that Samsung had sent to my house a month ago would even have a clue as to what to adjust on this TV. In fact, they couldn't even find the Service Menu!!! Now that's bad! :p

thanks! i'll try that. However, dont' you feel you lost a lot of impact going all the way to zero with the gamma? or is that just whats required to get the colors to not appear "neon". what do you mean by "melody off"? lastly, very funny about the Hulk!

You know, I do agree somewhat about the impact being lost when you set the Gamma to "0". I went into a Best Buys store the other day and saw two Sammys side by side. One was a 46" and the other was a 50". The 50" definitely had a green tint problem. So I walked over to the TV, while the salesmen were busy running around with customers, and I went into the service menu and did the Gamma "0" G-gain 112 adjustment. The picture looked better but it was considerably darker than the one next to it. So I think there is a drawback to the Gamma "0" setting. The only thing I didn't try was to set the Gamma back to "4" with the current color settings that I have. Has anyone else tried this and was more happy with the picture?

The "melody" command I was referring to is something that I believe you have to turn off so that you can go into the SM after you power down. The Melody can be found in the "setup" menu on your Sammy. This controls the sound you hear when you power down and power up. I've always did this whenever I wanted to go into the SM. This was something I read on this threat earlier that you had to do, though others may have found that this wasn't necessary. It's a habit I never got out of.

Hey! Believe me, I never thought that I had created a pun when I mentioned about the Hulk DVD putting our Sammy through a workout. After I thought about it though, it was kind of funny!

Hulk has green push?
I thought the Hulk was supposed to be green.
:)

Hey everyone, its been awhile since I've posted on this thread. I've been playing around with different settings that have been recommended to me in order to get rid of the green push a lot of us suffer from. A week ago I was playing around in the SM again (never completely happy with the tweeks) and I had an epiphany. Instead of turning down the green why not turn up everything else....... it worked. Not only is my green push gone but I have definition in the shadows again.

I think the reason people have been losing definition in the shadows is because everyone has been turning all the colors down and without color you have a drab, pasty picture.

I am back to having the "WOW" factor again that I bought the tv for. The picture is fantastic and clarity in bright and low light scenes is perfect. I'm not in my SM at the moment but if anyone is interested I can post my settings..... btw, I have a N507 with 302 board.

I know how frustrating this issue is since I have been fighting with it since I bought mine back in October but now I am finally completely satisfied with my purchase. I would be happy to pass my settings on to you if you need them.

:D

Hey Joe! I never even though of that before! Please tell us what your settings are. Did you set the gamma back to 4? Like my last post, setting gamma to "0" does take away a lot from the picture, but it does help correct the green tint problem.

The Hulk is green? You mean I went through all of this problem with the green push for nothing? I finally did get the Hulk's skin to have a flesh tone. The only problem is, everyone else is now purple!:p

reedwilliams2-

Ahhh the green problem and the dark shades color. I had them too. I would find tweaks that seemed to be the holy grail, only to watch another movie and see that tweak introduced other problems. I tried gamma 0,2, and 4. I tried adjusting G_OFFSET, G_GAIN, and the same for R_ and B_. I tried reducing and increasing the color (all the way down to 8 at one and all the way up to the 30's). Could never find a happy medium. Green tint in blonde hair, green tint in the shadows, and overly bright green grass seemed to persist no matter what I tried.

Dithering was noticeable to me always, at 9' viewing, mostly in dark scenes. I played the same DVDs on the 42" Panasonic ED plasma and didn't see it, so it wasn't the source (yes, I'm exchanging for this model).

My point is that if you can still return/exchange your DLP, I recommend going back out and looking critically on other TVs and see if you still want to stick with the DLP. When I went back out to the stores, I saw 4-5 DLP sets at different stores, all with a noticeable green tint compared to all the other TVs in the store, and I'd bet these TVs have been on for more than 50 hours. I believe the green tint in an inherent artifact of the current DLPs. I believe you can certainly reduce it, but probably not get rid of it without sacrificing some other aspect of the PQ.

Dark scenes/shades were just too "flat" and "dull" for me...lacking color and depth, with a grayish-green hue. In the store they have generally bright HD material playing with bright lighting. Watching DVDs like Panic Room, or Sleepy Hollow in a dark room, and this problem became apparent to me.

Sorry to all the happy DLP owners- I'm just being honest. There are people reading this forum that haven't purchased a DLP yet or can still exchange/return, and I want to share my experience with them. There were things I didn't notice until putting a few weeks viewing time with the TV in my own home.

The 50" size is all I'll miss.

Originally posted by joewagner501
Hey everyone, its been awhile since I've posted on this thread. I've been playing around with different settings that have been recommended to me in order to get rid of the green push a lot of us suffer from. A week ago I was playing around in the SM again (never completely happy with the tweeks) and I had an epiphany. Instead of turning down the green why not turn up everything else....... it worked. Not only is my green push gone but I have definition in the shadows again.

I think the reason people have been losing definition in the shadows is because everyone has been turning all the colors down and without color you have a drab, pasty picture.

I am back to having the "WOW" factor again that I bought the tv for. The picture is fantastic and clarity in bright and low light scenes is perfect. I'm not in my SM at the moment but if anyone is interested I can post my settings..... btw, I have a N507 with 302 board.

I know how frustrating this issue is since I have been fighting with it since I bought mine back in October but now I am finally completely satisfied with my purchase. I would be happy to pass my settings on to you if you need them.

:D

I'm curious to see what your settings ended up at?????
Please post.

I've had my HLN46W for about 2.5 months now. I have done nothing but adjust the color down on the UM and made no service menu changes whatsoever. I'm very happy with the PQ. I had intended on getting a professional adjustment done but never did so because the set seemed pretty good OOTB. After reading this forum for months I believe that the newer HLNs are better OOTB than the ones in the first few months. Either that or I am not as fussy as most.

Rodney, I have a HLN567W that I purchased at the end of October. (the TV was manufactured at the end of August) I noticed the "green push" in dark scenes, particularly in the shadowy area of faces in these particular scenes. This is something that I probably would have discovered even without reading this forum. This problem is not as chronic in most of the DVDs I watch but it is there.

I guess what would really open your eyes is if you get the chance to view the screen next to another TV, particularly an LCD. I stopped in a Circuit City store today and they had a 46" Sammy next to a Pioneer LCD. They were both showing "Finding Nemo." On the Sammy it looked as though the water was supposed to be green, where on the Pioneer, it was deep blue. Perhaps the LCDs have a push on the blue side (I have heard that mentioned on the AVS forum) but I am not sure if it is true.

I had reported this problem to Crutchfield and they have this filed on my account. Even though it's now going on two months they seem to be determined to make me happy. It's just that I do not know what to do. During my CC visit today I walked over and looked at Sony's top-of-the-line LCD TV. Low and behold the TV had 3 burnt out pixels in the matted area of the screen. This is a brand new set!!!

I guess I am a bit picky. But having a 27" Sony for 10 years and finally having the money saved to afford a DLP TV, I think we all should be completely happy with such a costly purchase. We can expect problems with cheap junk, not with TVs that cost close to 5 grand.

Still waiting on joewagner501 to post his tweaks. I'm anxious to see if it corrects the problem without jeopardizing the PQ.

is there an easy way to revert all SM settings back to the factory defaults? I do not want to tweak my settings unless I can revert any major mistakes I make.

Thanks,
rich

Rich, if you go into the SM, always make sure you write down each value before you make any changes. I keep a list of all of my changes just in case something goes wrong.

I did read earlier in the forum that there is something in the SM that will allow you to restore all of your defaults. You may want to look around and see if you can find it in one of the menus.

I have some great news!!!!

While I was waiting to hear back from another member on what he did to improve his picture, I decided to go at it alone and see what I could do.

I first thing I did was do a freeze frame on a DVD where it was a dark scene and there was a green tint on shadows, skin tone, and blond hair (yes, the green push give blonde's a slightly greenish tint) While in the SM menu I adjusted the gains and offsets. To my surprise, it was the offsets that brought out tremendous detail in shadowy areas. I am so pleased with the picture quality now I feel like watching all of the DVDs I had watched prior to the adjustment. In fact, I put in the SE edition of The Two Towers and I now see detail I never have before and the color is incredible!

I have a Samsung HLN567W. I found that the settings below gave fantastic results in both Component and DVI selections. Give this a try and let me know if it helps. Please remember to write down all settings before you make your adjustments. I have included both old and new settings.

R-GAIN 117 - 114
G-GAIN 116 - 116
B-GAIN 115 - 140 (yes, this jump in Blue Gain made an incredible difference!)
R-OFFSET 129 - 150
G-OFFSET 128 - 130
B-OFFSET 129 - 135

Let me know how this works!

Originally posted by Ozoner
I have a Samsung HLN567W. I found that the settings below gave fantastic results in both Component and DVI selections. Give this a try and let me know if it helps. Please remember to write down all settings before you make your adjustments. I have included both old and new settings.


I am waiting for my HLN467W to arrive on Tuesday and have been reading this thread for settings. I'll see what your settings look like when I get the tv installed.

I purchased my Sammy early in Dec. I have not had the difficulties described in this thread.:) I am an adjuster and have not had the urge to fix what is not broke. I did a great deal of research before the purchase and am convinced the Sammy is the best choice for HDTV now based on the performance of this set. The DVI input should be used as it improves the SD picture a great deal. S-video is good for SD, also because it permits the Zoom 1 of the aspect ratio to be used to fill out the screen. I purchased a Pioneer DV-260 DVD player at Walmart and find it works well on component inputs.

Sorry for not checking the forum after making my last post. I am at work but I will get on tonite and post my tweaks for everyone. Hopefully it will help a lot of people.

I've had my HLN46w about 2 weeks now. Having read all of these tweaks and other threads about the Samsung DLP's, I (of course) had a crisis over the sun-burned faces and neon green grass when viewing a DVD the first night I had it.

My D* signal is coming to the TV via S-Video and I had put the DVD to component 1. (I'm waiting for V to ship my D1 DVD player).

I couldn't get a decent picture with the UM and didn't want to start tweaking a brand new set. I called the dealer to complain and they sent out a local TV guy on a warranty call. All he did was tweak the color gains and offsets and turn to me and say "How does that look?".

Well, that wasn't what I wanted, obviously, and the dealer isn't going to do an IFS on warranty.

I decided that the picture was worse than before and did a User Reset in the SM. I called the dealer and told them to bring me another set this week.

As you may know, the UM adjustments have a reduced effect when viewing a component input. The color adjustment has a reduced effect and the tint doesn't do anything.

Yesterday I was getting a pretty good picture from D* watching NFL (through S-Video). I could adjust the brightness, color level, and tint to my satisfaction.

So, for a test, I put the DVD player back to S-video and what do you know. The PQ was pretty slick! I'm gonna call the dealer and tell them I'm keeping this one. After I get the D1 in place, I'll see about having an IFS done.

I posted this for the benefit of any other newbies out there. I'd also advise you to let the set get a few hours on it before you start freaking and tweaking :). If you're in a hurry, just leave it on the first night and the next day and then have a critical look.

Here is a little background..... the last settings I used were from a posting made by someone (I don't remember who it was) who posted a file showing the settings on his m437 which he had professionally adjusted. After watching movies for a week on the DVI connection I decided it wasn't working for me so I started playing around.

That's when I made the changes giving me what I am currently very happy with. Attached is a zip file with screen shots of my DVI service menu. The changes were with all three gains, offsets and both ddp items.

Let me know if anyone has any questions. I'll be happy to answer them.

Attached is post I found on some tweeking of the HLN507 to improve blacks and help with the green push. If you click on the various settings you can see the calibration he achieved. If I have duplicated with someone elses post, I apologize.

http://www.isfcalibration.com/HLN507W/HLN507W.htm#4

Joe, thanks for those settings, i'll try them tonight. Question, I notice when glancing through them that the gamma is at zero. The only adjustments i've made thus far is to back the G-gain to 112 (where i notice you also ended up) and the gamma to 2. I tried gamma zero at first and felt the picture was way too washed out. Did the additional adjustments bring back out the brilliance? Or is wanting more accurate colors simply a trade off for the impact that gamma 4 offers? lastly, (and i searched for this but came up with nothing) what is gamma? what is really happening when you raise and lower this value? thanks!!

Originally posted by reedwilliams2
Joe, thanks for those settings, i'll try them tonight. Question, I notice when glancing through them that the gamma is at zero. The only adjustments i've made thus far is to back the G-gain to 112 (where i notice you also ended up) and the gamma to 2. I tried gamma zero at first and felt the picture was way too washed out. Did the additional adjustments bring back out the brilliance? Or is wanting more accurate colors simply a trade off for the impact that gamma 4 offers? lastly, (and i searched for this but came up with nothing) what is gamma? what is really happening when you raise and lower this value? thanks!!

To be honest I don't know much about the gamma. I read about it several months ago but I don't remember all of it. It affects the brightness of the picture and 0, 1, and 4 seem to be the most popular. I found by increassing the DPP numbers the picture was brightened making up for the lower gamma setting. You can try the other gamma settings to see which one works best for you.

Good luck with the new settings. I hope they work for you. I'm happy to be enjoying movies without thinking seeing green in everything.

Happy new year everyone. Before I call Samsung today (file this one under: if it's not one thing it's another), regarding the screen not being centered, let me consult the group. I first noticed this when watching a D-channel that was not in wide screen. The black bar on the left side was over an inch wider than the one on the left. It is easy to move the screen right-left or up-down using the SM. But after centering the box, and returning to a "stretched" movie on HBO, I notice now that the right side had an inch of black! The good news is that true HDEF programs, as well as DVD fills the entire screen. But Stretched programs WILL NOT fill the screen. Going back into SM while on HBO i was able to center the picture so there is about a quarter inch on both sides. But this also put the boxed picture back to the right (my original situation). anyone? ...

Originally posted by reedwilliams2
Happy new year everyone. Before I call Samsung today (file this one under: if it's not one thing it's another), regarding the screen not being centered, let me consult the group. I first noticed this when watching a D-channel that was not in wide screen. The black bar on the left side was over an inch wider than the one on the left. It is easy to move the screen right-left or up-down using the SM. But after centering the box, and returning to a "stretched" movie on HBO, I notice now that the right side had an inch of black! The good news is that true HDEF programs, as well as DVD fills the entire screen. But Stretched programs WILL NOT fill the screen. Going back into SM while on HBO i was able to center the picture so there is about a quarter inch on both sides. But this also put the boxed picture back to the right (my original situation). anyone? ... Sounds like something the D* STB is doing. Perhaps the stretched mode of HBO on the STB isn't centered. Do you have another way to view the image independent of the Sammy?

My Sammy STB 160 has an adjustment for this

Has anyone that believes they have tweaked the set to their satisfaction been able to eliminate the color banding and/or posterization? If so, how? If not, does anyone know what is causing this? Is it due to an inherent design limitation of the set?

An example of what I am talking about can be seen in the ending credits of Finding Nemo DVD. As the credits start scrolling up the screen and the characters come out and start playing near them, I can clearly see banding of the blue colors of the ocean. It is most clearly shown in the upper left quadrant of the screen. You have to be looking for it, but once you do it is clearly there. It looks almost as like the ocean is changing from a light blue near the top of the screen to a dark blue at the bottom of the screen in moving waves of banded blue. I know this is in the dvd but the set seems to be exaggerating the effect. I have tried the dvd on my computer, and it is there but barely discernable and I never would have noticed it at all had not seen it first on my HLN467W. I also tried the same dvd on a Panasonic HD plasma, and it looked nearly as good as on my CRT computer monitor.

I think this same effect is what I am seeing in other material when trying to show shadow detail. It seems to drop off in bands rather than in a smooth transition. One of the previous posts mentioned that it looks sometimes as if it is 256 color.

Is there an adjustment to eliminate this or is it just inherent to the design of the HLN? Has anyone found a cure for this?

Hi,

The cure is in the DVD player. I have an HLN617 and a HD931. Put in Nemo and didn't have the problem at all. The DLP is very sensitive to input. Give it good input, and the output is great. Low quality input = low quality output. I have been messing with a video processor and will post my results. It will take a little while as I am waiting for the next generation IScan. I have been playing with the Ultra and it does a great job, but the output is 480p. We need 720p.

Mongo

Imongox, can you really get better picture quality with a video processor? I don't know how the Sammys can output a better picture than to use the DVI input or progressive signal using the component input.

BTW, I have been noticing lately BETTER picture quality when using my HD931 set to progressive scan and hooked up to the component inputs than using the DVI. Has anyone else found this to be true also?

I've notice the opposite, that the DVI output appears to be slightly better. However, you still need to beware of the 931's alleged white/black crush, [which, if I understand it correctly] wherein the 931 takes the DVD's video colorspace (16-235) converts it to a PC colorspace (1-255) then feeds it to the HLN as a video colorspace, thereby crushing the whites and blacks (I may have the video/PC colorspace sequence reversed).

I'm waiting for a Denon DVD-5900 which is on backorder, has a DVI-out, and supposedly has superior audio/video playback capabilities (especially after it gets "modded" by someone like www.modwright.com (http://) ).

The backorder is due around Jan 15. I'll let you know if it provides a better pix.

Sorry to morph but...
I just bought the HLN 507 from CC along with the SIRT S160. The Rose Parade in HD was awesome. My problem is that some movies/shows via the dish are sweet while others are a little fuzzy. This was especially noticable on the "long" shots during the Rose Bowl game. Up close and head shots across the field shots were spectacular but the above - "show the whole field shots" - could not keep up with the action, and the players looked pixilated. I also see thousands of little squares sometimes. Lastly the left side has a blurry verticle band (sometimes) and I'd like to fix this. Does anyone have any suggestions.
Thanks,
Tim

That's not unusual to see pixelization. MPEG compression simply cannot handle fast motion/intense lighting changes/etc currently without causing breakups given the bit rates given to HDTV. Even on PBS OTA broadcasts, which are probably some of the best, I can still see it from time to time.

I have had my HLN617 for about a month and am not completely satisfied with the PQ from my DirecTivo source. I have had some success by adding an I Scan Ultra but still believe it can be better. I see everyone speaking about "302" firmware but my last three digits are "306", any suggestions? Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Joe

I have always wondered when watching football games if ALL the cameras where HD. Some seem to be something less.
Maybe the parade does that too?

Originally posted by Michael.Chrisco
I have always wondered when watching football games if ALL the cameras where HD. Some seem to be something less.
Maybe the parade does that too?

Actually I'm kind of jealous you even got the parade and Rose Bowl Game in HD. We sure didn't get it in HD in my neck of the woods.

Sea Ray,

Doesn't your neck of the woods have access to DirecTV or DishNetwork? The Rose Parade was broadcast on DiscoveryHD, which is available from both DBS services. The game was not included, though.

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.

Insist on HDTV!:eek:

Originally posted by GeorgeAB
Sea Ray,

Doesn't your neck of the woods have access to DirecTV or DishNetwork? The Rose Parade was broadcast on DiscoveryHD, which is available from both DBS services. The game was not included, though.



I have Discovery HD but I didn't realize they had the Rose Parade on, but this is what led me to believe someone was watching the Rose Bowl on HD:

"The Rose Parade in HD was awesome. My problem is that some movies/shows via the dish are sweet while others are a little fuzzy. This was especially noticable on the "long" shots during the Rose Bowl game. Up close and head shots across the field shots were spectacular but the above - "show the whole field shots" - could not keep up with the action, and the players looked pixilated."

This was posted on the previous page.

I get a head's up via e-mail on everything that's featured that day in HD programming from 'HDTV Magazine'. They also have interesting news flashes, industry status reports and interviews. Here's a link to check out their service. I have been getting the service for about three years now and love it.

http://affiliate.ilovehdtv.com/affiliates/10020/index.html

Best regards,
G. Alan

Insist on HDTV!:eek:

Yes the Rose Bowl was on Discovery HD...So what about DLP PQ on SD? The Sammy recommended techs are coming out tomorrow to tweak for me. I have two complaints so far - 1. a static line across the top of the picture while using DVI and 2. a very pixilated image on live broadcasts - (less noticable during movies). The CC saleperson suggested I need a scaler to improve on the pixilation problem, but the hln has the Faroudja in it. Any thoughts on this or advice? I can't receive local HD via air here, so I'm stuck watching SD. Please help.

I have tried a Zinwell/Briteview BLS 2000 I snagged from my wife and it did produce a better pic with SD than the internal Faroudja DcDi on a 61" DLP. I am real curious how the new DVDO HD or the HD LEEZA would do. BUY DVD'S!

I think I saw that on ebay - under $500, or was it $1,000. I also saw some very inexpensive ones as well as mega $$$ ones. I haven't a clue where to go with that. I'd love to throw something modestly priced on and improve the SD PQ, but the A / V radar at home has become rather acute since Samsung entered my family room.

BTW - what type of conectivity did you use for the BLS 2000? Was it worth the money?

I just bought samsung HLN5365W. The manufactured date was Oct, 2003.

I tryied to access to the service menu by using remote and push MUTE-1-8-2-POWER in sequence but I could not get in the service menu.

Does anyone know if Samsung has changed the sequence?

Or I did something wrong ?

Thanks for help.

The speed of entry for the sequence seems to matter. Sometimes I have to do it 2-3 times, not too fast nor too slow.

Also depending to whether you have the "Music Tone" on/off you may need to use this sequence:

POWER-MUTE-1-8-2-POWER

Originally posted by anhtranle
I just bought samsung HLN5365W. The manufactured date was Oct, 2003.

I tryied to access to the service menu by using remote and push MUTE-1-8-2-POWER in sequence but I could not get in the service menu.

Does anyone know if Samsung has changed the sequence?

Or I did something wrong ?

Thanks for help.

Was the TV power off before you tried MUTE-1-8-2-POWER?

Was the TV power off before you tried MUTE-1-8-2-POWER?

Yes. TV power was off and the medoly was turn off also.

------------------------------

POWER-MUTE-1-8-2-POWER

I will try this requence tonight.


Yes, the power was off on the TV set.

I got the HLN467W a few weeks ago. It is simply superb. I get all the "wow's" when friends come over to see it. However, being the owner, I do have just one problem with it. I think the blacks are too black. For example, in scenes with people in black suits, I cannot see anything but black. Can't tell where there arms end and bodies start, can't see any definition in the fabric, or creases, or anything. I have used Attack of the Clones to set the Brightness, Contrast, Color and Tint. I haven't been in the service menu yet, but I worry about changing stuff because I am happy with the color. The tech on Crutchfield wouldn't help me with anything other than the Brightness and Contrast, but it didn't help. Anyone have similar problem and know a cure? I've been through this whole thread and all I can find is mostly problems with color.

Beware boys who love their toys; sometimes their judgements (and enthusiastic reviews) are clouded.

As someone who purchased an HLN5065W in October, I've only been frustrated. Why you ask?

1) The A/V sync problems (discussed in other threads) - basically in certain circumstances there is a time lag between the actors lips and the sound. It can drive you to distraction unless you like the look of old Chinese action-films dubbed into English. There is supposed to be a fix, referred to as the "Malibu" chassis coming in February '04.

2) The internal reflection problems. This is supposed to be fixed by the new E10 lens (some of us who've had the replacement can't see the difference - it's possible that the Service Center technicians installed old defective lenses believing them to be the new improved ones - but neither we, they, nor the Samsung parts department in Long Beach, CA seem to know for sure)

3) The fact that the darkest shade the Sammy will display is gray-black, not black-black, due probably to a combination of inherent limitations of the TI's HD2 chip and internal light scatter.

4) Washed-out, muddy-looking, low-light-level scenes lacking in shadow detail. I believe that this is due to the same factors as #3.

5) Samsung (independent contractors) Service Center Technicians who work on many different brands of TVs, and seem to have little knowledge of, or experience servicing, the Sammy and its problems. A number of Sammy owners have had to advise and guide the technicians regarding the repair that the TV repair guy is supposed to be performing.

By the way: you will not see any of these problems while viewing the HD, brightly-colored quick-cut loops that are being displayed on HDTV closed circuits at GG, BB, CC or other mass-market retail outlets, and I'm not sure that the higher-end retailers will share the above info with you (unless of course, they've trying to sell you a plasma, LCD or LCOS product)

Remember, you are purchasing a state-of-the-art, high-tech product costing thousands of dollars, so you shouldn't expect that the build quality, reliability, black-levels, or shadow detail would be as good as that of your 8-year old 30" curved picture tube CRT set.

Caveat emptor.

QUOTE]5) Samsung (independent contractors) Service Center Technicians who work on many different brands of TVs, and seem to have little knowledge of, or experience servicing, the Sammy and its problems. A number of Sammy owners have had to advise and guide the technicians regarding the repair that the TV repair guy is supposed to be performing.[/QUOTE]

I can totally agree with this. I'm having green issues in some scenes with people with blonde hair and seeing alot of green tinted walls. I have never seen so many green walls till I got my HLN617W. I called Samsung and they sent over a so-called tech to my house. I live in the Louisville, Ky area. The man was in my house for 10 minutes and all he did to my tv was get behind it to get the serial and model #. He acknowledge what I was seeing and said he had no knowledge of DLP's and would have to do some research and get back with me in 1-2 days. 5 days past and I heard nothing from him, I called Samsung and told em that they didn't know how to fix it and never got back in touch with me. They seemed surprised that they didn't know how to fix my problem (ya'll right). The next day I finally got a call from the so-called tech and he said they would be out on Friday. This was on a Monday. Friday comes and they called and said Wendall the guy who had the information to fix my TV was not at work that day and they will be out on Monday. I ask why can't you call Samsung and get the info that you need? He kept on insisting that Wendall do it on Monday since he has the info. I said so what you are saying I have no choice I have to wait till Monday and he replied "yep". Well I did have a choice. I told them not to bother seeing that they were unreliable and I have no faith in them to begin with. I'm going to just hire someone to calibrate it for me. Once the picture gets calibrated right I know I will love this TV although I will never purchase another Samsung product again. This is my first and last purchase made by Samsung. I didn't purchase this TV because of the name Samsung I purchased it because of the DLP chip made by Texas Instruments. If I knew that the PQ out of the box was going to be so out of whack and the service this bad I would have went with the RCA. The RCA was cheaper but I had the you get what you pay for mentality and went with the higher priced Samsung not knowing what I was getting myself into. Samsung should be embarrassed to charge what they charged and have problems with the PQ out of the box. For what I paid I expected NO PROBLEMS for years to come. I'll be glad when more TV manufactures come out with the DLP TV's so we will have more of a choice of who we buy from. I know for a fact it won't be Samsung. It's ironic or maybe it isn't that they don't want you to try and tweak the TV to get a better PQ or they will cancel your warranty but they can't get anyone to fix it for you either. I smell a class action lawsuit in the works.....Sorry about the long ranting, no information post but I've got to vent some of my frustration's before I go crazy.

Dear Julian812,

You are not alone! I experienced the exact same problem with my Sammy. The techs are awful. When I had my service call for the same thing, two techs came to my home and were there only 10 minutes. They left scratching their heads for they did not know how to get into the service menu.

What I did, I went ahead and did the tweaking myself. I used a DVD signal and froze the frame of a scene that was particularly bad. I then went into the service menu and adjusted the picture until I was satisfied. (I would advice that you write down your original settings before you attempt this) 4 weeks later (YES 4 weeks!!!) the techs finally called my house and wanted to come out and adjust my Sammy. I told them that I fixed the picture myself (not admitting that I knew how to get into the service menu) and told them that I would no longer need their services.

What concerns me is that if I have any major problem with the set, they will send me the same idiots that came out before.

I can't complain about the picture quality now. I NEVER see any green tints in shadows or people's faces anymore. Sometimes I do have to adjust the picture when I get a poor signal but I never have to do this through the service menu.

I hear that Samsung has announced a new and better DLP to be coming out in June. I wonder if they will offer us an upgrade since many of us have spent big bucks on these TVs and have had so much trouble with them.

CraigSharrow -

I too had purchased an HLN43 in November. Although HDTV detail was spectacular, I was disappointed by the green tint, the washed-out blacks, the audio delay, an intermittent stuck mirror (bright white dot in the center of the screen), the inability to render lifelike skin tones, and the wide variation in color/tint between channels.

Then . . . I discovered this forum! Users shared their tweaks and hints, and were fixing their problems and enhancing their pictures. I tried one, which fixed my green tint (at least most of the time). I rejoiced and stayed up all night tweaking.

Of course, you know the end of that story . . . I'd fix one picture on one channel or source and another would be negatively affected.

I had considered the Sony 42" Grand Wega LCD at the store but chose the DLP after viewing the picture - on a closed circuit HDTV feed (in spite of a noticeable green tint which the salesman passed off as an anomaly with that particular display model).

After not being able to achieve consistency between sources, I went to the Sony forum and noticed something remarkable: there were no long threads covering a multitude of service menu tweaks.

I then compared the two sets at a store with a cable feed, and returned the DLP in favor of the Sony. I went in to validate my original decision, but the comparison was undeniable; the Sony 1) faithfully renders colors and blacks, 2) does it consistently across sources, 3) requires no tweaking.

My advice to prospective buyers is simple: this product is not ready for the mass market. If you are reviewing this forum doing research on DLP vs LCD, simply read through the threads covering each set. You'll realize that owners of the Sammy cannot achieve a consistent level of picture quality no matter what tweaks are used and who applies them, while the Sony pages have posts only from the type of person who would tweak their toaster if they could.

And to current owners - your wife is right: you shouldn't have to tweak something that costs three grand.

HadaSammy,

I'm just the opposite. I hadaSony didn't like the blacks at all. I returned it for a 437W. I had the set calibrated by an ISF tech. I love this set. The picture is fabulous on HD and DVD and fair to very good on SD.

TWD,

Mind informing us who you used for your ISF cal? Was it Steve Martin? How familiar were they with fixed pixel, DLP or the Sammy DLPs specifically?

Thanks,
Jeff


Originally posted by TWD
HadaSammy,

I'm just the opposite. I hadaSony didn't like the blacks at all. I returned it for a 437W. I had the set calibrated by an ISF tech. I love this set. The picture is fabulous on HD and DVD and fair to very good on SD.

How much does it cost o get the set calibrated?

I miss the days when they had dials behind the TV and all you had to do was set up a mirrior in front of the TV and sit behind it and turn the dials....

My concern about the Sony's and the LCD technology is the fact that you will most likely experience some sort of pixel burn-out as time goes on. The warranty that Sony has for their LCDs and the fact that you have to have so many pixels burnt out in a cluster is terrible. If something prematurely burns out on your screen after a couple of months you should not have to put up with it. It appears to me that both LCD and DLP have their own flaws. I guess you will have to decide if you want one or the other. I'm pretty pleased with my Sammy HLN567W now. Sometimes the picture looks fantastic while other times it leaves me scratching my head. But it has a lot to do with the signal and, with DVDs, it has a lot to do with how the disk was mastered.

I tried out the DVE DVD last night for the first time with my HLN507w. I watched it with my Bravo D1 via DVI. I only made adjustments to the UM. I have a couple of questions and I apologize if they've been covered, but this is a LONG thread to search.

1. Adjusting Sharpness didn't appear to do anything. Is that right? Is that only the case with DVI?
2. Making the adjustments only effects the DVI input. Should I just write down the settings and use the same settings for the other inputs?
3. When setting the black, I could get it pretty black (at least from this novice's perspective), but you lose a lot of detail in the dark scenes with the black set as suggested in the DVD. Do people have "happy medium" settings for that? (I know this is a common complaint with the Samsung DLPs).
4. As a novice, should I attempt to adjust the grey in the SM? I mean, it looks pretty good to me right now, but I want to be sure I'm getting the most out of my set. I'm not yet prepared to spend hundreds of dollars for a professional calibration, however. Perhaps when I have a new STB.

Thanks in advance!

Originally posted by Your User Name:

1. Adjusting Sharpness didn't appear to do anything. Is that right? Is that only the case with DVI?

That's pretty much the case for most of us. Some of the earlier sets (HLM models) appeared to have two points at which Sharpness actually effected anything. Personally, now that I have firmware 214, I can't see any change when using sharpness regardless of which input is being tweaked.


2. Making the adjustments only effects the DVI input. Should I just write down the settings and use the same settings for the other inputs?

Bad idea. In most cases the differences between types of inputs used will be rather large. For instance, the DVI output on the TS160 STB is notoriously darker than most other outputs... if you were to do what you suggest when using the TS160 through the DVI input, your picture would be practically all black. Each input type should be treated separately. Understand this... the composite videos, S-video and Component 1 480i inputs all share the same user menu settings, IIRC. Component 2 and 3 480p/720p/1080i all share the same, and PC and DVI have there own settings.


3. When setting the black, I could get it pretty black (at least from this novice's perspective), but you lose a lot of detail in the dark scenes with the black set as suggested in the DVD. Do people have "happy medium" settings for that? (I know this is a common complaint with the Samsung DLPs).

Tough to pick happy medium settings as each source component as well as WHICH input you are plugged into will make a difference in terms of your PQ. It's really a trial by fire method you need to use when setting this stuff unfortunately. Alot of it has to do with which Gamma setting you are using as well. I suggest Gamma 0 rather than the default Gamma 4. Some people prefer 5, some 2. I believe that most ISF guys were going with 0 though.


4. As a novice, should I attempt to adjust the grey in the SM? I mean, it looks pretty good to me right now, but I want to be sure I'm getting the most out of my set. I'm not yet prepared to spend hundreds of dollars for a professional calibration, however. Perhaps when I have a new STB.

I have to wholeheartedly say NO. Grayscale is a tough cookie to monkey with, and the Service Menu is no place to just get into and start hacking away. One thing you will DEFINITELY want to do if you decide to go into the SM is to WRITE DOWN EVERY SINGLE SETTING FOR EVERY SINGLE INPUT BEFORE YOU CHANGE ANYTHING!!! Grayscale is not something that you can set correctly with your eyeballs and any one of the calibration DVD's. You need a color analyzer and other test equipment to set this correctly. There are lots of threads on one of the more popular calibration test packages known as Color Facts. Do a search on that and you will come up with more info than you can read in a night. Also, check out www.milori.com for even more info and tutorials.

Hope that helps,
Jeff

Thanks for the reply; that helps a lot. What is the gamma setting you speak of? I didn't notice any such seting in the UM. If it is in the SM, is it "safe" to go in and tinker with just the gamma despite your warnings? :p

The Gamma control IS in the Service Menu only, not the User Menu. IMHO, yes, the Gamma setting (0 to 15 on the newest boards, 0-5 on the older boards) is something that can be changed with little detriment if you "screw it up". That being said, caution/discretion is always the better part of valor.

Regs,
Jeff


Originally posted by Your User Name:
Thanks for the reply; that helps a lot. What is the gamma setting you speak of? I didn't notice any such seting in the UM. If it is in the SM, is it "safe" to go in and tinker with just the gamma despite your warnings? :p

Originally posted by Iceblade
For instance, the DVI output on the TS160 STB is notoriously darker than most other outputs...

Iceblade,

Is this really true? I'd never read this before....I'm currently running DVI from ts-160 and switching cables to run DVI from Bravo D1. I do think dark scenes, especially HD viewing via ts-160 are too dark.

Now, I'm thinking of running component from ts-160 to see if my PQ improves, at least as referenced to "darker scenes".

Dave,

Yep... I've run across multiple posts both here on AVs as well as on the Home Theater Spot that deal with this. I was HOPING that it was something that might be tweakable within the confined of the TS160's service menu... but we shall see. For the time being, I have abandoned DVI totally for now in favor of component. I hope to be tweaking my Sony HDTV that is now hooked up to the TS160 in the next few days/weekend. I'll let you know about the black issue.

Later,
Jeff




Originally posted by holemania
Iceblade,

Is this really true? I'd never read this before....I'm currently running DVI from ts-160 and switching cables to run DVI from Bravo D1. I do think dark scenes, especially HD viewing via ts-160 are too dark.

Now, I'm thinking of running component from ts-160 to see if my PQ improves, at least as referenced to "darker scenes".

Okay, follow up question. How can I set up my HD input (component 3 in my case)? Does it make any sense to plug the DVD player in via component 3 and run DVE? That would only set it up for the DVD player via comp 3, right? It would still be off for the STB via comp 3, right?

That's pretty much the way you need to do it, based on what you have for signal sources. Remember, however, that you will need to keep your DVD player in PROGRESSIVE mode since the Comp3 and Comp2 only support 480p and higher resolutions.

One other thing you can do if you have DirecTV and the HD Package. HD NET periodically has 15 minutes worth of "calibration signals" during certain times of day on certain days of the week. Check out their webpage and programming schedule to find times, or even better, email the scheduler herself. HD NET will show the SMPTE color bars and you can use those to set your UM color setting correctly. I think they might also display a test signal to help set contrast and brightness as well. I don't recall because it has been quite some time since I did this and I told D* to "shove it" with regards to their 5 crappy channels of "sometimes HD" programming for $11/month.

Later,
Jeff

Well, I have to use Comcast (los issues) and have a Motorola 5100 (I think) STB. Do you (or anyone) know how to change the Bravo D1 from progressive to non-progressive and vice versa?

Can't help on that one, I'm afraid. I know there are plenty of people out there that have the D1.. I'm sure they can tell you in two seconds how to do it. Good luck!

Regs,
Jeff

Thanks for all your help!

I was just curious if anyone has had any success with either of the green tint tweaks posted by Ozoner or joewagner501 ? As tweaks tend to be a bit different on each TV, it would be nice to know if anyone else has had good luck getting rid of this issue.

Thanks,
Andrew

Originally posted by auksmart
I was just curious if anyone has had any success with either of the green tint tweaks posted by Ozoner or joewagner501 ? As tweaks tend to be a bit different on each TV, it would be nice to know if anyone else has had good luck getting rid of this issue.

Thanks,
Andrew

Well I got my color analyzer and signal generator in today. One obvious result was getting rid of the major green biases.

Other notes: at 20 IRE and below it skews blue, and above 90 IRE it skews yellow. The rest is pretty much spot on. YMMV.

Rick

Rick,

Did you buy a color analyzer? Or, did you rent it (ColorFacts has a 30 Day rental for 300 bucks)? Which set do you have?

Mongo

I finished ISF training and needed to invest in the equipment, so I got the Sencore CP5000 color analyzer and the VP403 signal generator.

I'd often thought of renting the ColorFacts for 30-days before, but once I knew that I'd be going through the training I just saved my dimes to purchase equipment instead.

Supertoyz has the ColorFacts and I believe he's pretty happy with it.

Rick

Originally posted by ender21 ]I finished ISF training and needed to invest in the equipment, so I got the Sencore CP5000 color analyzer and the VP403 signal generator.


What all is involved in getting ISF trained? Where do you go for that?

been a while since i've chimed in so here's some "for what it's worth" info. I bought the HNL507W about two months ago. It was a version 304 and I had tons of color trouble! Green being the biggest of course. Joe Wagners settings fixed it all. It was 100% perfect! some of the changes were radical, changing values in the hundreds. But again, the results were stunning so i didn't question it. (and yes, i recorded the original settings! always do this!!!) Then, about two weeks after that i went to fire it up one night and got the bulb warning (all three lights flashing) and the TV was dead. BB replaced the TV the next day and right out of the box the color was perfect!! it is a version 306 (hhhmm...). I have no way of knowing if the original TV was bound to fail regardless..?? I did check the setting on the new one and there were slight differences from the version 304, but nothing serious. It is true that entering the SM does void the warranty, this info came right from Samsung. Could raising the value of some setting too much harm the TV? Maybe.
I also believe that some of these units are trouble (color wise) right out of the box, and others are not...

Its interesting your bulb burnt out so quickly. There is another thread on the Samsung bulbs burning out fast. I've had my tv since October and between me, family and friends it is on around 10-12 hours a day. Because of the lack of burn-in I tend to leave it on when playing x-box or computer games when I need to run somewhere quickly or I stop to eat (I know its bad but we have to have some bad points or we would all be perfect). Anyway, the point is, I don't think changing items in the SM is what caused your bulb to fail. It was probably a bad bulb. Mine is running fine and I haven't had a problem with my tv other than the color before I fixed it (knock on wood). I take that back, I have the picture delay issue but Samsung said they will replace the chassis or the tv when they get the new ones in (sometime in Feb or Mar). I just hope I don't have to "fix" the color again.

Originally posted by Sea Ray
What all is involved in getting ISF trained? Where do you go for that?

To become ISF Certified, you must successfully complete an ISF training course. There are several courses offered throughout the year, and if you search Google for "ISF Training" you'll be able to find the information you need.

Hope this is helpful.

Cindy

I am new here and joining this thread way late, but I am getting some interesting info.

Twinkles(white specks) are normal on SD?

Dithering is seeing the little moving squares?

I have a Oct 2002 HML507W firware 109 with 2100 hours on it. I will be returning it for an HLN467W new in the box. I found out the age and hours after I bought it off the floor.

Will the SD picture improve much with the HLN467W comming from HL507W?

Anyway this site it great.

Steve

So, Rick,

I live in the Virgin Islands. I have a 1 bdrm vacation rental I'd be willing to trade a week for a calibration on my 617. Interested?

Mongo

Reed, I am new to this post and own the 507, firmware 309. Made the mistake of changing setting in SM without noting original settings. I know...pretty stupid. Anyway, I was wondering if I could get the original settings from you. Reset seems to change everything back except gains and offstes. I changed the settings to begin with because I had the green push thing going and the blacks were a little off. I used the settings Joe gave, but I still was not totally happy..(started to see a slight red push), and everything was a little too dark for me. So since you said you had good luck with the 306 I have started to second guess the changes I made and would like to get back to initial settings..Thanks.

Joe I was also wondering what settings you have found for your xbox. not satisfied with that either.

Originally posted by Imongox
So, Rick,

I live in the Virgin Islands. I have a 1 bdrm vacation rental I'd be willi YES. ng to trade a week for a calibration on my YES. 617. Interest YES. ed?

Mongo

guys, i know how to get into the service menu, but how do i get out? and how/where do i adjust gamma?

PM me. We'll work it out.

Mongo

Anyone have any info on tweaks for a sammy hcn4226w - i know this is the wrong thread, but there is no thread for this - please please help - although the set is not looking all that bad

Originally posted by Julian812
QUOTE]5) Samsung (independent contractors) Service Center Technicians who work on many different brands of TVs, and seem to have little knowledge of, or experience servicing, the Sammy and its problems. A number of Sammy owners have had to advise and guide the technicians regarding the repair that the TV repair guy is supposed to be performing.

I can totally agree with this. I'm having green issues in some scenes with people with blonde hair and seeing alot of green tinted walls. I have never seen so many green walls till I got my HLN617W. I called Samsung and they sent over a so-called tech to my house. I live in the Louisville, Ky area. The man was in my house for 10 minutes and all he did to my tv was get behind it to get the serial and model #. He acknowledge what I was seeing and said he had no knowledge of DLP's and would have to do some research and get back with me in 1-2 days. 5 days past and I heard nothing from him, I called Samsung and told em that they didn't know how to fix it and never got back in touch with me. They seemed surprised that they didn't know how to fix my problem (ya'll right). The next day I finally got a call from the so-called tech and he said they would be out on Friday. This was on a Monday. Friday comes and they called and said Wendall the guy who had the information to fix my TV was not at work that day and they will be out on Monday. I ask why can't you call Samsung and get the info that you need? He kept on insisting that Wendall do it on Monday since he has the info. I said so what you are saying I have no choice I have to wait till Monday and he replied "yep". Well I did have a choice. I told them not to bother seeing that they were unreliable and I have no faith in them to begin with. I'm going to just hire someone to calibrate it for me. Once the picture gets calibrated right I know I will love this TV although I will never purchase another Samsung product again. This is my first and last purchase made by Samsung. I didn't purchase this TV because of the name Samsung I purchased it because of the DLP chip made by Texas Instruments. If I knew that the PQ out of the box was going to be so out of whack and the service this bad I would have went with the RCA. The RCA was cheaper but I had the you get what you pay for mentality and went with the higher priced Samsung not knowing what I was getting myself into. Samsung should be embarrassed to charge what they charged and have problems with the PQ out of the box. For what I paid I expected NO PROBLEMS for years to come. I'll be glad when more TV manufactures come out with the DLP TV's so we will have more of a choice of who we buy from. I know for a fact it won't be Samsung. It's ironic or maybe it isn't that they don't want you to try and tweak the TV to get a better PQ or they will cancel your warranty but they can't get anyone to fix it for you either. I smell a class action lawsuit in the works.....Sorry about the long ranting, no information post but I've got to vent some of my frustration's before I go crazy. [/QUOTE]

Julian812,
I have an HLN507W and also live in Louisville, KY. PM me as to who came out to look at your TV.
Fred

Originally posted by Fred Benz
razy.

Julian812,
I have an HLN507W and also live in Louisville, KY. PM me as to who came out to look at your TV.
Fred [/B][/QUOTE

I live in New Albany but don't have PM. Can you post here who you use?

You can send a Private Message (PM) to another member under the Members Area menu at the very top of this page.

Originally posted by frbrad4221
Julian812,
I have an HLN507W and also live in Louisville, KY. PM me as to who came out to look at your TV.
Fred [/QUOTE

I live in New Albany but don't have PM. Can you post here who you use? [/B]

I have not required any service but understand that the local Samsung authorized dealer is:
Kwik Service Electronics
4211 Bardstown Road
Louisville , KY 40218
502-499-8334

Originally posted by lmychajluk
You can send a Private Message (PM) to another member under the Members Area menu at the very top of this page.

How, if the member does not have PM active according to his user profile??

Gentlemen,

I needed help! I recently try to tweak my set HLN46 and misplaced my original settings (default settings) The color on my component inputs are now "out of whack". If any of you have a 46" Samsung, will you please post your settings or send me a message. Your help is greatly appreciated.

SDfan

Originally posted by Fred Benz
How, if the member does not have PM active according to his user profile??

I guess frbrad4221 doesn't have it turned on under Edit Profile/Options, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have it. He made it sound like he thought it was a seperate program, or was talking about IM (instant maessenger, a la AIM or MS IM), not PM (Private Messages here).

guys, how do i adjust the "gamma" setting on my dlp and what exactly is it? my picture looks great now, should i even bother to check this? i was able to get in the service menu, but don't know where this setting is or how to navigate the service menu......any advice would be appreciated. thanks!

-dave in boston

GO PATS!

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Please refer to the dilemma that SDfan is in. Sit back and enjoy the great picture.

Charles

ok. good advice. i agree

macd23

To move around in your service menu use the circular direction buttons on your remote.

Up and down go up and down in the menu.
Highlight the submenu then press the right arrow.
Up and down will move you through each setting.
Right and left will change the highlighted setting.

To back out after changing a setting or a submenu press the menu button.

As far as gamma it is in the first menu.

The preferred setting for gamma depends on which version of the service menu you have. A number at the bottom of the screen ends with your software version. example ( 224, 302, 309, etc)

Be vary careful changing setting. Apparently the settings are set by Samsung at the factory and are unique for each display. If you lose your original setting you will never get them back again.

Good luck!

ok thanks. i think i will leave it alone seeing as i like the picture now. there probably isnt any other reason to go into the service menu i assume.

none, unless you get a new bulb (and want to reset the number of hours), or want to look up the firmware version.

Why is it that these DLP's dont allow for geometry adjustments? Am I wrong? Most RPTV's have adjustments in the service menu. I read somewhere that geometry, specifically pincushion type issues can not be resolved.

Max,
It's because it's a digital technology. If you could adjust pincushion, it would be at the expense of picture quality and resolution because you'd be distorting the digital image to compensate for optical pincushioning prior to the image actually being projected. That means you could no longer display 1280x720 pixels at a 1:1 ratio. A multiburst pattern at 1280x720, where you can distinctly see 1 pixel on and 1 pixel off, would distort, and you'd see a moire pattern or gray haze where once you could make out each individual pixel.
The only way to fix pincushioning without a loss in PQ would be in the optical path, i.e., in the lens, mirror or screen.

Rick

Thanks. I guess that makes sense. But shouldnt it be easy to have these things look straight out of the box if it is in fact digital? You don't have to worry about convergence, you shouldnt have to worry about geometry as well, right?

Yeah that was my thought too when I got my DLP. But there are two things, as a film guy, that I consider:

1) The closer you get to a subject the wider angle the lens needs to be to achieve a certain field of view. You can bet your bottom dollar that if Samsung wanted to make their box 36 inches deep, a lens could be used that results in less pincushioning. EDIT: Not that there's a lot now. I'm satisfied with the amount my set has.

2) No lens is perfect. While there are no *real* convergence issues like CRT PJs or 3-chip displays have, there are chromatic aberrations in the lens. If I display white text on a black background on my DLP, the closer I get to the edges of the screen, the more chromatic aberrations I see. But you can spend more money on a good professional lens than the Samsung costs and still have this issue to some degree. Optics, optics, optics.

FYI: Chromatic Aberration: Color distortion in an image produced by a lens, caused by the inability of the lens to bring the various colors of light to focus at a single point.

I wonder if the E10 lens reduces CA at all.

I was wondering if the Loewe DLP had a better PQ. It has Zeiss optics which are world renowned.

I actually have my second 437. I originally had a 4365, but after getting the fan noise issue, then having two DLP engines replaced which actually brought the IR problem which I never had, this new 437 that samsung sent me, brand new, manufacturer date of Jan 2004, I see no IR problems anymore, and the fan is way more silent. I am not sure if it has the new e10 lens or not.

Well I just did a little googling and found a brief review of the Loewe Articos and even that pricey set had visible geometry problems, though slight. http://www.homecinemachoice.com/testbench/frame.html?http://www.homecinemachoice.com/testbench/HomeCinemaSystems/Loewe/LoeweArticosConcertos.php

I currently have a HLN567W with 214 Firmware. I was wondering how I can go about requesting a firmware upgrade to the latest? However, does anyone have any comparison or suggestions regarding the different firmware versions? Has anyone upgraded their firmware only finding that their old firmware provided better PQ?

Thanks,

-Steve

DO NOT ask for an upgrade. That tells them you've been in the SM, and they'll say you've invalidated the warranty.

Instead, ask for something they would need to do an upgrade to give you, maybe discrete remote codes.

guys, what effect does the "gamma" setting have on this tv???

smfrazz won't be able to request upgrade for discretes, if he has rev.214, he already has that capability...

Whew! I just finished reading the whole thing .... :) Started 3 days ago!

So what is the final conclusion ? Any standard setting yet ? 30 pages of posts to find 5 useful pages is pretty painfull.

The conclusion is that every set is different and you can't just copy the delay, offsets and gains and expect the same results. It appears that not all bulbs are created equal and they change throughout their life. Has anyone with a color analyzer been monitoring their set throughout the bulb life? I remember a thread where significant change was observed beyond 100hrs. At what point does the rate of change level off? It seems that the recommended 1st calibration should probably be pushed back, maybe as far as the 500hr mark.

I'm gonna have to agree. I've been through the red push, the green push, the crushed black, getting lost in dark/dim scenes. I've tried the gammas, the gains and offsets, Avia calibration. You know what, I've come full circle and have settled on minor tweaks close to the original settings. I'm approaching 200 hours and the bulb seems to be finding the groove.

The HiDef is awesome, the SD is acceptable, sometimes even better, the PS2 looks great, and even better when in progressive (480p). It's hooked me, this Sammy is a keeper. About it's 500th hour I'll treat it to a ISF calibration and hopefully it will treat me well. YMMV.

~ Lauden

my 5065w was built Jan 2004, the firmware code reads: T-B3K6101-309 release 9/29/03.

any ideas on what was improved since the 214 firmware???

holly ... I finally finished all 31 pages ..... ...overwhelmed w/ useful info......

...well.. I got 1 big qustion...

if I plan to play my PS2 on my TV... is DLP my only choice ? .. how about LCD ? will my game playing cause any "burn" on a LCD ?

Why am I asking ? .. because (1) my GF is all for the Sony... and (2) one of the post here did mention that there is 30+ page or tweaking regarding the Sony Grand WEGA .....

.... thx for answering... TIA

BH

Hey,

Just got my set this Thursday and after setting everything up, I was disappointed to see that my ESPN NFL Football on the XB looks terrible. Chris Berman during the start of the game could pass for the Incredible Hulk's brother. During the demo mode the colors are even worse. The Eagles uniforms look dark blue. The field is light green. Red looks dark grey and orange looks light brown. I haven't adjusted anything in the SM to do this! This was how it looked from the start. I wanted to know if anyone else had this problem when they initially hooked their XB up to this set? Here's my setup...

HLN5065w fw 309
XB connected to Pelican System Selector Pro through component cables... Connected to Component 3...
It's already been suggested that I try moving the XB closer and bypassing the selector, but there is no way to do that because of the shelf the television sits on and no room to set it close enough.

If anyone has experienced this problem let me know what your solution was...

Thanks,
Anthony

Make sure you don't have a couple of your component cables switched on one end for component 3.

Originally posted by Gary Rhine
Make sure you don't have a couple of your component cables switched on one end for component 3.

Thanks Gary :)

That wasn't it though. What I did was disconnect the XB from the system selector and move it over to the set. Connected to all the inputs and made sure the picture looked good on all of them. So that told me there was something on the Pelican selector that was doing this. :confused:
So what I did was turned off 1080i mode on the XB and connected it to the selector and tried it on all three component inputs again. Voila, the colors were back to normal. I had checked the system selector guide but it doesn't have any information on what signals it can pass. And I'm sure not too many people have run into something like this. Well, that's that. Maybe Arun can add that to his FAQ in the XB section.

Anthony

I have a question about the Avia disk calibration and the DLP. Do I have to connect my DVD player to each input I want to calibrate? Also, if I don't have a DVI dvd player, it calibrating that input not possible? One more thing. I notice the PQ with DVD on component 1 with progressive scan off yields the best DVD picture. How will this affect my calibration.

Thanks,
Steve

OK, after some acclimation time with a color analyzer and several evening of experimentation on my HLN467W w/309 firmware I have drawn some conclusions:

1. When I try to hold tight to 6500 in the center range and let the ends wander (as many have suggested) I could not kill the tendency toward green push on actual material. The best setting I found was to concentrate on maintaining whiteness (delta x = delta y), but let the color temp hump 10% in the middle from 6500 at both ends. There is no evidence of green push with this approach, Liz Clayman looks fabulous, and the local blond anchor no longer has green hair.

2. The gray scale linearity is most accurate at Gamma 0 -- I've concluded the tendency for studio shots to look washed out is because they are -- they are often so uniformly lit there are few shadows, and they may look more dramatic with exaggeration of a portion of the gray scale, but it's not what is in the source. Outdoor material looks as expected, where there really is range in the material.

3. The system seems to be designed to a temp around 10000K at nominal settings, and the gain and offset changes I used to skew the whole gray scale closer to 6500 are more dramatic than any I have seen posted here.

All setting are as received except:
Gamma 0
R gain 121
G gain 106
B gain 92
R offset 123
G offset 129
B offset 132

Conclusion: Staying white (untinted) is more important than slavish tracking to 6500 -- a horseshoe shaped color vs intensity plot (on a CIE chart) means tint shift, even if it's a small horseshoe. A 45 degree line (the axis of the least tinted white region) will show less apparent tint shift.

Your mileage may vary.

Ghostface...you can get a vga adapter for the Xbox, which I use, from a company called Neoya. It's called the X2VGA. It works great. The only problem is it wont display 480i with a great picture, it looks terrible. But almost every game out there is 480p, but your Xbox setting are not, which is not a big deal. The picture with this is terrible but you can still see what you are doing. There has only been one problem and it isnt the fault of the X2, but of the game producer instead. The new James Bond game which says has great graphics and supports 480p, does not. It only produces 480p when you are in a car...how dumb is that? Hope that helps.

Originally posted by k2ue
OK, after some acclimation time with a color analyzer and several evening of experimentation on my HLN467W w/309 firmware I have drawn some conclusions:

1. When I try to hold tight to 6500 in the center range and let the ends wander (as many have suggested) I could not kill the tendency toward green push on actual material. The best setting I found was to concentrate on maintaining whiteness (delta x = delta y), but let the color temp hump 10% in the middle from 6500 at both ends. There is no evidence of green push with this approach, Liz Clayman looks fabulous, and the local blond anchor no longer has green hair.

2. The gray scale linearity is most accurate at Gamma 0 -- I've concluded the tendency for studio shots to look washed out is because they are -- they are often so uniformly lit there are few shadows, and they may look more dramatic with exaggeration of a portion of the gray scale, but it's not what is in the source. Outdoor material looks as expected, where there really is range in the material.

3. The system seems to be designed to a temp around 10000K at nominal settings, and the gain and offset changes I used to skew the whole gray scale closer to 6500 are more dramatic than any I have seen posted here.

All setting are as received except:
Gamma 0
R gain 121
G gain 106
B gain 92
R offset 123
G offset 129
B offset 132

Conclusion: Staying white (untinted) is more important than slavish tracking to 6500 -- a horseshoe shaped color vs intensity plot (on a CIE chart) means tint shift, even if it's a small horseshoe. A 45 degree line (the axis of the least tinted white region) will show less apparent tint shift.

Your mileage may vary.


Hi k2ue

I am glad that you were able to get to use your color analyzer. I was curious though:

Which color analyzer are you using?

What input did you use to set your gray scale?

What is your conclusion? My guess is that the grayscale needs to be skewed to compensate for the tint shift in the color decoder, but please clarify.

I have made some observations that you may find useful.

I have noticed that my 480i inputs require different offsets and gains in the DNIe menu to produce a 6500K grayscale than my 720p inputs.

Red seems to clip on the high end. In other words at 100% red intensity a lot of blue and green dynamic range is left when adjusting to 6500K.

Other settings can effect the color temperature of the grayscales. The FLI2300 menu on the 480i inputs have Y_BR, CR_BR and CB_BR settings that effect the grayscale and the AD9883 menu has similar gain and offset settings on the 720i input that effect grayscale.

I have attempted to visually calibrate my DLP to the grayscale of my Spider calibrated computer monitor but it just seemed that everything was too green when I was done. Instead I calibrated my DLP to a photo gray card and a 6500K IdealLume lamp and have been much happier with the results. The major difference between the two is the amount of green.

If I had my own color analyzer to use, I would investigate the cumulative effect on color decoding of modifying the Y, CR, CB settings then readjusting the gray scale to 6500K. The net effect may be zero but without a color analyzer I will never know.

Originally posted by surfnutbry
Hi k2ue

I am glad that you were able to get to use your color analyzer. I was curious though:

Which color analyzer are you using?

What input did you use to set your gray scale?

What is your conclusion? My guess is that the grayscale needs to be skewed to compensate for the tint shift in the color decoder, but please clarify.

I have made some observations that you may find useful.

I have noticed that my 480i inputs require different offsets and gains in the DNIe menu to produce a 6500K grayscale than my 720p inputs.

Red seems to clip on the high end. In other words at 100% red intensity a lot of blue and green dynamic range is left when adjusting to 6500K.

Other settings can effect the color temperature of the grayscales. The FLI2300 menu on the 480i inputs have Y_BR, CR_BR and CB_BR settings that effect the grayscale and the AD9883 menu has similar gain and offset settings on the 720i input that effect grayscale.

I have attempted to visually calibrate my DLP to the grayscale of my Spider calibrated computer monitor but it just seemed that everything was too green when I was done. Instead I calibrated my DLP to a photo gray card and a 6500K IdealLume lamp and have been much happier with the results. The major difference between the two is the amount of green.

If I had my own color analyzer to use, I would investigate the cumulative effect on color decoding of modifying the Y, CR, CB settings then readjusting the gray scale to 6500K. The net effect may be zero but without a color analyzer I will never know.

I'm using a Minolta TV-2150 Color Analyzer retired by a leasing company, and regularly calibrated during its life.

The only video input I'm using is DVI, fed from a Samsung TS-360 that is doing the conversion to 720p. Test signals have been the AVIA and DVE DVDs fed as component to the Samsung (the Bravo D1 I ordered hasn't come yet -- I'll redo it all when it does).

I get the definite impression the light source is around 10,000K, or at least the digital processing chain makes it appear so. I also felt like limiting was taking place if I significantly advanced the red or green gains, and found I could only control 100% white if I left Red near nominal and backed off the others -- which makes sense -- you can't get more red than the lamp has, you can only reduce the blue and green enough to lower the temp. The higher offsets for Green and Blue are OK -- the sum of offset and gain is still less than Red.

I've found conversion by the Samsung to work fine -- no tint shift issues with Satellite vs. DVD on component vs. DirecTivo on Svideo. When my HD DirecTivo comes I'll only have it and the D1 as sources, both DVI, if my Gefen DVI/optical switch ever comes.

Originally posted by k2ue
I'm using a Minolta TV-2150 Color Analyzer retired by a leasing company, and regularly calibrated during its life.
...
Interesting results... but you should be using a spectaphotometer for a non-phosphor based display.

My memory may be failing me, but if I remember right the minolta device uses only three sensors spectral filters that expect P22 phosphor generated spectral distributions. So its use on a color filtered tungsten bulb spectral distribution isn't going to give correct results.

A three sensor device is only going to give correct results for the spectral distribution it is calibrated to. To use it on a DLP projector you'd minimally have to first calibrate it by comparing its results to a spectaphotometer looking at the same DLP.

Originally posted by TooLittleTimeZZZ
Interesting results... but you should be using a spectaphotometer for a non-phosphor based display.

My memory may be failing me, but if I remember right the minolta device uses only three sensors spectral filters that expect P22 phosphor generated spectral distributions. So its use on a color filtered tungsten bulb spectral distribution isn't going to give correct results.

A three sensor device is only going to give correct results for the spectral distribution it is calibrated to. To use it on a DLP projector you'd minimally have to first calibrate it by comparing its results to a spectaphotometer looking at the same DLP.

There appear to be four sensors in the probe. Your comment on applying a CRT-designed sensor to a filtered system is of course conceptually correct, but if there is any skew due to spectral content that produces unequal effects on x and y there will be a tint visible when white is expected, since that is the most sensitive direction visually; if the skew affects both and there is no noticeable tint then only a temperature error could occur, which for home entertainment purposes can be visually cross checked against a calibrated monitor -- which I have done. I would not claim the results to be absolutely accurate in temperature, but I think I have a valid conclusion on the best fit that the the Samsung processing algorithm allows -- a hump in temp on the white (x slope = y slope) axis, rather than a horseshoe or S-curve that stays closer to 6500, but displaces in more visually sensitive directions when it errs.

Originally posted by k2ue

All setting are as received except:
Gamma 0
R gain 121
G gain 106
B gain 92
R offset 123
G offset 129
B offset 132



I tried your settings on my HLN437W with 302 firmware to see how it would compare to what I have now...

With Normal or Warm 1, there is still a bluish tint, but it looks to be pretty accurate when using the Warm 2 setting.

Originally posted by acnownzu
I tried your settings on my HLN437W with 302 firmware to see how it would compare to what I have now...

With Normal or Warm 1, there is still a bluish tint, but it looks to be pretty accurate when using the Warm 2 setting.

There must be a significant scaling difference in 302 vs. 309 firmware -- the values I posted are used with Normal, and could not be called even remotely Blueish at that setting. So only 309 folks should consider those values applicable.

This would explain the poor results I saw when using values posted for 302's!

I would second the view that firmware tweaks only work for that firmware. Someone posted 302 tweaks and I tried them on my 309 and boy did it look like crap :) I was pushing yellow, green...

The differences must be huge between the boards.. I am going to try your tweaks when I get home tonight and tell you what they do for me :)

Thanks for posting your work. Many of us really appreciate it as we don't have access to the equipment you do.

Mike

I also failed to mention that since tint and temp is hanging in pretty close over the whole range there seems to be no downside to using the Dynamic operating setting, rather than Normal or Movie, which reduce peak white intensity -- unless of course your roomis always dark and Dynamic is objectionably bright. You are going to lose some peak white level by dumping Blue and Green energy at the top end, so Dynamic is not as bright as it was out of the box -- even on Warm2 full white skewed to Blue originally.

Originally posted by k2ue
There appear to be four sensors in the probe. Your comment on applying a CRT-designed sensor to a filtered system is of course conceptually correct, but if there is any skew due to spectral content that produces unequal effects on x and y there will be a tint visible when white is expected, since that is the most sensitive direction visually; if the skew affects both and there is no noticeable tint then only a temperature error could occur, which for home entertainment purposes can be visually cross checked against a calibrated monitor -- which I have done. I would not claim the results to be absolutely accurate in temperature, but I think I have a valid conclusion on the best fit that the the Samsung processing algorithm allows -- a hump in temp on the white (x slope = y slope) axis, rather than a horseshoe or S-curve that stays closer to 6500, but displaces in more visually sensitive directions when it errs.
Sounds like you've thought it out pretty well since you've effectively used the calibrated monitor as a color comparator.

sorry to jump in on folks who know a lot more than me BUT my heads spinning over this purchase...and I want to get it done....tell me this: is the only sensible thing to do to wait on the "1" series (looking at HLN437W)? ....and having a HDcable box and a DVD w/DVI do I need 2 DVI connections and does this unit have them? If someone can help me I'll get off.

If you are going to purchase a DLP, I would definitely try to get a W1, as many stores already have a few in stock. You'll just need to have them check their stock and look for "W1" on the label.

If you want to connect 2 DVI devices, you can buy a DVI switch. Gefen's 2x1 DVI switch is about $250 and seems pretty popular among AVS users.

I'm waiting for the next batch of DVD players w/ DVI to be released, as they will be better than what's currently available.

k2ue,

What were your user settings with these SM changes?

Originally posted by smartbomb
k2ue, What were your user settings with these SM changes?
Dynamic (no changes) and Normal Color.

Clyde,

I forgot to ask you -- which inputs are these SM settings for?

What is the significance of the "W1"?

Originally posted by smartbomb
Clyde,

I forgot to ask you -- which inputs are these SM settings for?

Strictly DVI -- I let my Samsung TS360 convert everything else to 720p.

Originally posted by k2ue
Strictly DVI -- I let my Samsung TS360 convert everything else to 720p.

I have the TS160 on DVI for HLN617W. I set it to 1080i since most of the stuff available right now comes in as 1080i so I figured that would let the better (?) scaler in the Sammy do the down conversion to 720p on the native signal. Of course that would result on the few 720p shows getting double converted (to 1080i in the TS160 and back to 720p in the HLN). Any thoughts? Should I change to 720p output?

Oh when oh when will my HR10-250 be here with remote selectable output formats? Oh when oh when will they have an update for the HR10-250 to allow native pass-through? :D

Originally posted by mercurial
I have the TS160 on DVI for HLN617W. I set it to 1080i since most of the stuff available right now comes in as 1080i so I figured that would let the better (?) scaler in the Sammy do the down conversion to 720p on the native signal. Of course that would result on the few 720p shows getting double converted (to 1080i in the TS160 and back to 720p in the HLN). Any thoughts? Should I change to 720p output?

Oh when oh when will my HR10-250 be here with remote selectable output formats? Oh when oh when will they have an update for the HR10-250 to allow native pass-through? :D

I started with the TS360 into my HLN467W at DVI and my HDVR2 into it at S-video. I decided it would be easier for my wife to operate if source selection was done in the TS360, and moved the HDVR2 to it for conversion to 720p. It looked as least as good, with no tint to fiddle -- while transponders vary it seems to average right where DVI does, so I don't need an adjustment.

All things being equal one conversion is preferable to two, and since in the only cases that matter to me they are equal, I let the TS360 do it once, and also for DVD (fed to the TS360 as component).

There seems to be enormous fascination with 1080 being a bigger number than 720, but I am not impressed -- I once had to work on a frame tank to standards-convert, and the prospect of going thru that process twice leaves me cold -- I think you'd wind up with about 500 line resolution on a 720 channel that gets converted twice and 720 on a 1080 converted once -- vs. 720 doing it once on a 1080 or 720 doing it not at all on 720 in.

Originally posted by k2ue
Dynamic (no changes) and Normal Color.

I also have firmware 309 so I was interested in your settings. Mine are close to yours but not exactly the same on all settings. I didn't like the gamma 0 as it seemed hazy to me. I do notice that my Toshiba SD4900 DVD seems to push a lot of color more than the other components I have. Best color setting is about 33. That is down considerable from the normal dynamic settings. I guess each set will vary slightly, but out-of-the box, it was so green that the only movie I probably could stand to watch that way would have been The Hulk. But your settings and observations were helpful especially about not being able to use the gray scale exactly to achieve a good color/tint balance of 6500K.

Thanks

Originally posted by k2ue
All things being equal one conversion is preferable to two, and since in the only cases that matter to me they are equal, I let the TS360 do it once, and also for DVD (fed to the TS360 as component).

There seems to be enormous fascination with 1080 being a bigger number than 720, but I am not impressed -- I once had to work on a frame tank to standards-convert, and the prospect of going thru that process twice leaves me cold -- I think you'd wind up with about 500 line resolution on a 720 channel that gets converted twice and 720 on a 1080 converted once -- vs. 720 doing it once on a 1080 or 720 doing it not at all on 720 in.

Well, for me it wasn't a fascination with 1080i- I was trying to figure out which was the better scaler. The one in the HLN617W is supposed to be one of the best so by outputting the resolution that matches most of the native broadcast resolution, then you let it do it in the set. For the few 720p broadcasts, you'd get the double convert. It seemed to make sense that the $5K set should do it better than the $300 STB.

I'll try setting it to 720p and figure out if I can tell a real difference.

I tried both and couldn't tell the difference myself with the Sammy T165 STB set either way. I could tell the difference with my DVD. By not using the progressive mode of the DVD and letting the Sammy doing the scaling the picture was a ton better.

Clyde,

So let me get this straight....you run your DVD through your TS360? Also, just out of curiosity -- I'm a PVR junkie...what do you use if you have to run everything through the TS360?

Originally posted by jtirak
I tried both and couldn't tell the difference myself with the Sammy T165 STB set either way. I could tell the difference with my DVD. By not using the progressive mode of the DVD and letting the Sammy doing the scaling the picture was a ton better.

Which is odd because that is the result I expected but on my Sony DVD changer, I felt the picture looked better with the DVD player set to progressive. It's hooked up via component. Maybe I need to look at that again to make sure it really was better. Maybe there should be an easier way to compare before and after... Maybe I should stop obsessing.... :D

Originally posted by smartbomb
Clyde,

So let me get this straight....you run your DVD through your TS360? Also, just out of curiosity -- I'm a PVR junkie...what do you use if you have to run everything through the TS360?

The DVD is temporary -- I have a Bravo D1 and Gefen DVI+Optical switch on order, so when the HD Tivo comes I'll be all DVI.

Originally posted by mercurial
Which is odd because that is the result I expected but on my Sony DVD changer, I felt the picture looked better with the DVD player set to progressive. It's hooked up via component. Maybe I need to look at that again to make sure it really was better. Maybe there should be an easier way to compare before and after... Maybe I should stop obsessing.... :D

I obsess also. Everytime I think I have tweaked the picture to my likeing, I see something else the next time I turn it on and go tweaking again. It is obessive. I keep thining I am looking contrast on my DVI port.

What does adjusting the gamma level do?

As a new owner, I noticed that when you first turn it on it takes a few minutes for the picture to stable in color. I this correct? Is this the bulb just settling down to operating optimum?

I've noticed the same thing and have heard that the set just takes longer than other sets to warm up.

Originally posted by Respectabull
What does adjusting the gamma level do?

It changes the shape of the video level vs. light output curve. In the HLN's the Gamma # is just a map or curve identifier -- the number is not related to the actual gamma function the curve produces, and they are not in any significant order. For NTSC video the reference "correct" gamma is close to the grid response of an unmodified CRT, but for non-CRT displays or CRTs with digital input signals the curve can be manipulated as desired in the digital-to-analog conversion process. As a practical matter the bit-width (number of discrete levels recognized) affects what curves can be usefully produced in digital systems -- if the CRT-like curve is reproduced too slavishly at low light levels on displays with relatively linear control characteristics there with be a wide range of low levels mapped to a small number of digital levels, accenting the "clay faces" tendency. Useful gamma curves compromise this effect with adherence to the expected curve at higher light levels. The differences in many of the HLN curves appears to be the strategy for transitioning between these two regimes.

But, for practical purposes, how does adjusting the gamma level affect the picture? I'm finding that in dark scenes certain things, hair for instance, ooks unreal, almost animated. Can this be correted by tweaking the set/gamma levels?

well my experiment with DVI is over. I have had it hooked up for a few weeks and i have decided its way too "washed out" looking for my taste....i have gone back to component 3. are there any settings i should adjsut to on DVI to get a better picture? it just didn't have the vivid bright colors that this TV is so capable of displaying.

Originally posted by macd23
well my experiment with DVI is over. I have had it hooked up for a few weeks and i have decided its way too "washed out" looking for my taste....i have gone back to component 3. are there any settings i should adjsut to on DVI to get a better picture? it just didn't have the vivid bright colors that this TV is so capable of displaying.

The color level is adjustable when using the DVI input -- was the highest setting still too low for you?

k2ue or anyone else with sammy dlp...

if anyone else has a light meter....can you measure your light output with contrast @ 100% on the 100% IRE window. I'm trying to determine how many footlamberts or cd/m2 these sets are capable of putting out.

I know the 43" and 50" have the 100w lamp, while the 61" has the 120w lamp....not sure about the 46" and 56" models.

Originally posted by holemania
k2ue or anyone else with sammy dlp...

if anyone else has a light meter....can you measure your light output with contrast @ 100% on the 100% IRE window. I'm trying to determine how many footlamberts or cd/m2 these sets are capable of putting out.

I know the 43" and 50" have the 100w lamp, while the 61" has the 120w lamp....not sure about the 46" and 56" models.

It depends on both the Gamma and calibration temperature. At Gamma 0 and calibrated to 6500K peak white is 50cd/m^2, and the gray scale is very close to a true gamma=2.5 response. Gamma 4 boosts the light output to 75 (all other setting being the same) and is too bright in the mid IRE range relative to gamma=2.5. It also skews blue/green in the top IREs. I get the impression that about 50cd/m^2 is it for 6500K, above that output there is not much more red to be had and the output will skew blue/green, for lack of red. I recall readings around 90 with the original factory settings. I have the HLN467W, with a 100W lamp.

Originally posted by k2ue
I get the impression that about 50cd/m^2 is it for 6500K, above that output there is not much more red to be had and the output will skew blue/green, for lack of red. I recall readings around 90 with the original factory settings. I have the HLN467W, with a 100W lamp.

k2ue,

I have the HLN5065W, also with 100w lamp. My set is cal'd to 6500K, gamma 0 using DVI port. I'm measuring 45-50 cd/m2 (14.6 footlamberts) which I think is too dark.

I have some ambient light in my viewing room, but not too much.

I'm thinking the intensity of the bulb has diminished (it's around 3000 hours), because I can't pump anymore light output out of this thing.

The major problem is that the set is very dark, especially ota HD viewing thru the samsung ts-160. The scenes are very dark, such that you can't make out much detail at all. Contrast, of course is maxed @ 100% and if I raise brightness from the mid-fifties, to 70-75, I can see more detail, but then it's a "washed out" picture....any ideas?

Thanks!

Dave,

I just wanted to make sure that you were aware of the documented issue with the TS-160 and it's DVI output. The DVI is noticeable darker than the component output of the TS-160. My understanding is that it may also suffer from being set to the incorrect grayscale, i.e. set to computer standard ( grayscale is from digital 16-240) not video standard (0-255). The component outputs do not suffer from this issue. I'm still a little concerned that you were calibrated to the DVI input and you still have a washed out picture that is missing details. The whole point of calibration is to remedy this, that's why I am concerned.

Anyway.. just wanted to let you know in case you didn't.

Later,
Jeff


Originally posted by holemania
k2ue,

I have the HLN5065W, also with 100w lamp. My set is cal'd to 6500K, gamma 0 using DVI port. I'm measuring 45-50 cd/m2 (14.6 footlamberts) which I think is too dark.

I have some ambient light in my viewing room, but not too much.

I'm thinking the intensity of the bulb has diminished (it's around 3000 hours), because I can't pump anymore light output out of this thing.

The major problem is that the set is very dark, especially ota HD viewing thru the samsung ts-160. The scenes are very dark, such that you can't make out much detail at all. Contrast, of course is maxed @ 100% and if I raise brightness from the mid-fifties, to 70-75, I can see more detail, but then it's a "washed out" picture....any ideas?

Thanks!

Originally posted by holemania
k2ue,

I have the HLN5065W, also with 100w lamp. My set is cal'd to 6500K, gamma 0 using DVI port. I'm measuring 45-50 cd/m2 (14.6 footlamberts) which I think is too dark.

I have some ambient light in my viewing room, but not too much.

I'm thinking the intensity of the bulb has diminished (it's around 3000 hours), because I can't pump anymore light output out of this thing.

The major problem is that the set is very dark, especially ota HD viewing thru the samsung ts-160. The scenes are very dark, such that you can't make out much detail at all. Contrast, of course is maxed @ 100% and if I raise brightness from the mid-fifties, to 70-75, I can see more detail, but then it's a "washed out" picture....any ideas?

Thanks!

I've noticed quite a few network sources that don't get anywhere near full white -- you can tell from how bright the receiver text info screens look when you call the up. Gamma 0 while truer than 4 exaggerates this by pushing down the mid-range -- with correct gamma 50% of the IRE scale should be only 18% of peak white. So if they don't place the program material so the peak white hits 100IRE it will indeed seem dark.

Your luminance levels sound right for a 50" with a 100W bulb at 6500K -- but maybe program material just isn't getting to that level.

My 467 replaced a 36" CRT and I find it equally bright subjectively when competing with sunlight, and far less glare-producing.

Funny how we wind up right back where we were with CRTs -- red being the limiting factor. But my DLP has no convergence issues, no screen-door, no scan lines and no blooming, so I'm much happier, in a relative sense, than I was with CRT rear-projectors.

I decided to take another pass at my HLN467W firmware 309 after thinking about the attainable Peak White being dominated by available Red. I used the following procedure:

1. Preset all 3 Gains and Offsets to 128 (midrange)
2. Temporarily set the Blue and Green Gains to 0.
3. Using a test pattern with both 100% White (now actually Red) and Black, adjust the Sub-Contrast to the last step that has full incremental change from the previous step; i.e. just below the compression point.
4. Adjust the Sub-Brightness until Black just merges with the pillar-box Black bars.
5. Repeat 3 & 4 until there is no further change. We have now spread the sensitivity of Red control over the entire working range of the color driver.
6. Bring up the Blue and Green Gains and adjust for 6500K on 2nd brightest step of the log brightness steps.
7. Evaluate tint and temperature shifts over the gray-scale and adjust Offsets and Gains as required for best tracking -- leave the Red Gain and Offset at 128 since this is tied to available Peak Red level!

This procedure gained me an 80% boost in Peak White (from 50 to 90 cd/m^2) with good temp and tint tracking. Final values were:
Red Gain 128
Green Gain 115 later trimmed to 113
Blue Gain 101 later trimmed to 97
Red Offset 128
Green Offset 128 later trimmed to 130
Blue Offset 128 later trimmed to 134
Sub-Brightness 242
Sub-Contrast 116

If Sub-Contrast is too low you loose Peak White level, if too high you will get Blue/Green skew at high IRE levels. My factory Sub-Brightness setting was quite close, but the factory Sub-Contrast was 100. It may be possible to achieve the same result by setting the Sub-Contrast to 100 and elevating the Red Gain until just below limiting, but time didn't permit trying that, and it's possible different limiting conditions could apply. The more scientific may note that we are essentially matching the apparently slightly non-linear control characteristic of the 3 colors with the same nominal 0 intercept, but different gains. Since Blue is throttled back to 79% of Red the two curves must weave through each other and will only be in perfect proportion at 2 points, so long as both curves are not exactly linear. Green throttled back to 90% adds another curve to be matched, and it can have the exactly correct relationship to the other two at only two points each. So calibration is the art of compromising these points of intersection and areas of error to have the least subjective impact.

I'm going to try your tweaks, what is your gamma setting is it still 0?

Originally posted by wallachs
I'm going to try your tweaks, what is your gamma setting is it still 0?

Yes Gamma is still 0 -- I got arround to measuring gamma with the AVIA pattern and it does check at 2.5, which I had inferred from previous gray-scale measurements.

I did some more work on the Offsets and Gains in my earlier post, to further minimize tint shift with White level change, which is the most annoying deviation. The new setting are noted as "later trimmed to xxx". Temp shift was also tightened at bit, but was good before. Your mileage may vary. . .

Clyde,

Thanks for your research, efforts & posts. I shall try these settings later.

Also, I'll be trying a new bulb today and will measure light output and report any difference prior to changing settings.

I'll also measure light output after changing to your settings and report any difference there.

I have already noticed that specifically the offsets and not the gains make the most difference in improving "dark image" PQ.

Dear Clyde, are you aware of a DVI Switcher by pacific cables? I know you have been waiting on a Gefen, but the other seems to be more HT friendly in it's physical design, HDCP tested, plus IR remote, and 2 models are available. They are doing final QC on them for compatibility issues and are to begin shipping tomorrow. The 4 input model sells for $399. Thought you and the other readers might want to know.

Bill

Thanks, I did get a Gefen and it is working for me. I'll keep Pacific in mind if I need a bigger switch in the future.

Bill:

I was an early adopter of the Pacific DVI switch back in Nov/Dec of '03. They had to pull this one off the market for HDCP compliance issues. Looks like they've resolved the problems and, if so, I'm likely to order another one. Despite the problem, Pacific was great to deal with. They moved quickly when they realized the product was flawed and promptly refunded the full purchase price plus shipping.

Gefen, OTOH, continues to market its switcher with so-called "discrete IR" capability. I ordered the Gefen back in '03 as well and have suffered with the IR conflict issue. Gefen has promised a fix, but has yet to deliver.

Bottom line: I wouldn't hesitate to try the switcher from Pacific. If it does not work as advertised, Pacific will not leave you hanging.

Say, Does anyone happen to have an updated version of that spreadsheet around? It's been a while since I've been to the boards and was looking for any interesting updates to the 302 firmware.

I've also been looking for more reports on settings with v302 firmware. Forum searches reveal little to nothing on a 50" with v302.

Major difference with bulb replacement on my HLN5065W (100w lamp)!

Measured @ 100% contrast/100% IRE:
Old lamp (3000 hours) = 50 cd/m2 (14.5 footlamberts)
New lamp = 150 cd/m2 (44 footlamberts)

New lamp (w/Clyde's reformed settings)=188 cd/m2 (55fl)...way too bright!

These lamps do grow tired and dim as they age...

Originally posted by holemania
Major difference with bulb replacement on my HLN5065W (100w lamp)!

Measured @ 100% contrast/100% IRE:
Old lamp (3000 hours) = 50 cd/m2 (14.5 footlamberts)
New lamp = 150 cd/m2 (44 footlamberts)

New lamp (w/Clyde's reformed settings)=188 cd/m2 (55fl)...way too bright!

These lamps do grow tired and dim as they age...

I'd tend to suspect a latent defect -- it would be hard to design a bulb on purpose that could lose 2/3rds of its light output without opening up altogether or shifting its color balance. I will be interesting to see how the new bulb ages. . .

"I just got through watching West Wing on the NBC HD feed and it was way too dark. I had to crank up the brightness to 100% to see anything. "

I have always had this problem on my CRT TV. Really bad when watching a taped version. Seems they have a feed problem on this program

Originally posted by holemania
Major difference with bulb replacement on my HLN5065W (100w lamp)!

Measured @ 100% contrast/100% IRE:
Old lamp (3000 hours) = 50 cd/m2 (14.5 footlamberts)
New lamp = 150 cd/m2 (44 footlamberts)

New lamp (w/Clyde's reformed settings)=188 cd/m2 (55fl)...way too bright!

These lamps do grow tired and dim as they age...

Another possibility might be a bad or incorrect ballast, causing excessive lamp current, which would correlate with very high initial brightness and unusually rapid aging.

Originally posted by k2ue
I'd tend to suspect a latent defect -- it would be hard to design a bulb on purpose that could lose 2/3rds of its light output without opening up altogether or shifting its color balance. I will be interesting to see how the new bulb ages. . .

Another possibility might be a bad or incorrect ballast, causing excessive lamp current, which would correlate with very high initial brightness and unusually rapid aging.

Good points, Clyde...

I never did initially measure light output on the original bulb until I noticed it was dimmer (11 months and 3000 hours later), so I don't know what the initial light output was....I only know that it used to be brighter.

I shall measure my new bulb routinely to track it's progress.

Clyde,

Found your postings quite useful...

You said...
This procedure gained me an 80% boost in Peak White (from 50 to 90 cd/m^2) with good temp and tint tracking. Final values were:
Red Gain 128
Green Gain 115 later trimmed to 113
Blue Gain 101 later trimmed to 97
Red Offset 128
Green Offset 128 later trimmed to 130
Blue Offset 128 later trimmed to 134
Sub-Brightness 242
Sub-Contrast 116

Gamma 0

Your settings helped my "clay faces" problem with the 309 firmware version but I have a few questions. I have no pro equipment, so what I'm doing is solely by eye across several DVDs and tuning DVDs.

I have 500 hours on my bulb.

What "user menu" settings are you using? I saw earlier you mentioned "dynamic".. and that seemed a little "hot" to me... but I'm not sure.

My only changes from what you posted so far are I had to raise the sub-brightness level to 250 (default is 248) and the sub-contrast level to 123 (dafault is116) to get the scene details back My visual test for this is the infamous "senator" scene in SW ATOC where the senator is seated in the chair and the wearing a multi-layered outfit. If things get too dark, you lose all sense that he's actually wearing a dark gold tone shirt under what appears to be a black velvet v-neck robe. Using 242 and 116 I was unable to discern his shirt at all until i adjusted per above.

Would you post what you are using for "User menu" settings so I can see if that what is driving what I saw above.

Thanks! Vincent

I use Dynamic for starters as a handy way of pre-setting Contrast to 100 and Brightness to 50. Sharpness doesn't seem to have much effect except on SD material, where I prefer 50. I've worked the Color down to 30 and now keep it there -- women's complexions can look very good at that setting on my inputs. At the Sub-brightness end I find if you use a 4:3 test source and just back the brightness down to match the side Pillars, it is right on material -- but that will depend on how your DVI source is scaled. The best Sub-brightness point is the one where Red is just about to stop increasing -- any sort of metering (camera light meter pointed at Red screen?) that lets you find that point will be helpful in avoiding temp skew on peak White.

Woops...
Seeing the reset option in one of the service menues, I assumed that this would restore the factory settings for color, etc. Does anyone know where I can get the *original* values for a rev 309 HLN567? Mainly, I'd need the ant., video, comp2, and dvi orig settings for the color offsets/bias as well as the sub contralt/brightness and gamma.

(feeling embarrased here...)

Thanks for the thoughts on user menu settings that I can try. I just switched from cable to satellite dish and am having to readjust my HLN5065. I did this to get HD since my cable system said no to any HD coming in the next year. I am using the Samsung 160 as my SD receiver. I have the output set at 720P to match the 5065.

To be honest, other than HD which is awesome, the SD PQ seems to suffer somewhat compared to my cable signal. My cable signal was better(sharper) than most other cable users I spoke to. SD doesn't seem to be as detailed or sharp. Anyone have any thoughts or experience with a similar issue. I am using a DVI input and signal strength is in the mid 90's to 100 on most transponders.

My other main question is this, my firmware version is 302. Is there a way to upgrade firmware, like downloading to a PC and uploading to the set? Will a firmware upgrade improve any of the issues with my set like green push, etc? Does a firmware upgrade require a professional tuning of the set? I am in a rural area where it might be difficult to get someone to do that.

Love the forum. It has helped me greatly with getting into the HD world. Thanks to all of you who contribute.

Originally posted by drgolf
Thanks for the thoughts on user menu settings that I can try. I just switched from cable to satellite dish and am having to readjust my HLN5065. I did this to get HD since my cable system said no to any HD coming in the next year. I am using the Samsung 160 as my SD receiver. I have the output set at 720P to match the 5065.

To be honest, other than HD which is awesome, the SD PQ seems to suffer somewhat compared to my cable signal....

I use the 160 with a HLM617W. I used the DVI cable for about a year. Now I use a good quality component cable instead. SD is much, much better with the component cable, plus 4:3 content doesn't get clipped off at the sides like it does with DVI on the TS160. HD is not much different, but is smotther and more film-like with the component cable.

Consider trying a good component cable to see if SD improves for you.

Dean

Originally posted by k2ue
I use Dynamic for starters as a handy way of pre-setting Contrast to 100 and Brightness to 50. Sharpness doesn't seem to have much effect except on SD material, where I prefer 50. I've worked the Color down to 30 and now keep it there -- women's complexions can look very good at that setting on my inputs.

Clyde (k2ue), do you then end up reducing the contrast lower than 100?

what color temp do you select? cool 2, cool 1, normal, warm 1, or warm2?

thanks, I enjoy your posts.

Originally posted by filmosound
Clyde (k2ue), do you then end up reducing the contrast lower than 100?

what color temp do you select? cool 2, cool 1, normal, warm 1, or warm2?

thanks, I enjoy your posts.

No, I run the Contrast at 100 -- we have lots of windows and off-white walls, so a fairly bright image is necessary to compete with ambient light during the day. The color temp is at Normal, since I set it to 6500K directly when calibrating, which corresponds with Normal when in viewing mode.

Early on I tried setting for 9500 and using the Warm settings to pull the temp down, thinking maybe that's what they intended -- lots of light for showrooms at Normal, but truer color at Warm 1 or 2. Doesn't work-- you get a skew to blue at high IRE and the much-commented Green push in the middle on the Warm setting. So I just set what I want, and get it in the most straightforward way.

Yesterday a 6500K reference source arrived, and I was pleased to see its telling me my Color Analyzer is correctly reading 6500K with non-CRT sources, so until something ages or there's something about the HD DirecTiVo output levels to be dealt with, I'm happy at the last settings I posted.

anyone out there had problems with a bulb warning - (all three lights flashing after a failed turn on). But by unplugging the set and waiting a few minutes the TV fires back up with no problem.

My first set started doing this at around 100 hours. The new one is now starting to do it as well. bout the same hours.

how important is rear ventilation?

I would assume ventilationto be something very important. You'll generally want a foot or more of clearance for breathing room.

I drilled extra holes in the rear of my entertianment center and put the Monitor on a raised stand inside so that air could enter and exit. I never hear the fan that some people talk about because of the enclosure and how I have ventilated.

yes, of course ventilation is important. Agree... I have about a foot behind the set to allow it to breath. I don't believe that overheating is an issue here, but the repair guy (who did, and knew nothing) was a bit skeptical that two sets in a row would have the exact same problem. Also, if the placement wasn't ideal, why would the TV wait almost 100 hours before acting up?
any additional input is appreciated.

Maybe you should start your own thread reedwilliams2.

Originally posted by k2ue
No, I run the Contrast at 100 --

I generally run mine at 90-100, which doesn't seem to give us much play to work with. Do you recommend we reset a contrast setting in the SM so this 90 setting is more like 50 or 60 in th UM so we have some flexibility? It seems strange to me that Samsung would make something that routinely works at 90 or so out of 100. I believe their standard setting 90.

Originally posted by Sea Ray
I generally run mine at 90-100, which doesn't seem to give us much play to work with. Do you recommend we reset a contrast setting in the SM so this 90 setting is more like 50 or 60 in th UM so we have some flexibility? It seems strange to me that Samsung would make something that routinely works at 90 or so out of 100. I believe their standard setting 90.

I run:
Contrast: 65-70
Brightness: 75-80
Sharpness: 10
Color: 50

This gives me more natural looking colors, not too intense, and brings out shadow detail better. I get better sense of depth and perspective as well. If I raise contrast and lower brightness the picture doesn't look as realistic and natural to me and seems more two dimensional.

My ISF calibrator concurs with these settings. When I first used these settings I felt it looked washed out, but quickly realized it was really more natural and film-like.

Part of it may be my DVD player (Arcam DV88 Plus) and the cables I'm using (Transparent Cable, High Performance for SAT and Premium for DVD). They do an excellent job of preserving color saturation and black levels from the source. For example, if I set the TV to Dynamic mode, the colors look way too intense.

Dean

Seems extreme, but my HLN507W also seems too dark in dark scenes if that makes any sense. When jacking up the contrast yes, the dark scenes are better, but I sometimes feel I may be washing out the brighter scenes in spite. I had my set ISF calibrated and overall I am extremely happy with its performance (especially in HD), but damn I am learning quickly what obsessive/compulsive people are all about. Maybe because of the $4000 I paid for the bitch.

Sammy 309 DLPers, there have been several threads about tweaking the 309 Firmware in the past few months & several people have replied - Clyde, Ken and others. After getting about 500 hrs on my bulb, and not being able to handle the "clay faces" anymore, I decided to try some of Clyde's initial settings w/ my own tweaks as I had had very good luck tweaking a 214 version on my prior DLP.

For reference, Clyde's postings I'm referring to begin around page 33, 34 of this "DLP -N- series tweaks" thread. Attached below is a copy of a page from one of the original tweak spreadsheets from mike_pro for the "DLP upgrade". I have modified it with my original 309 settings for the HLN567W. I have not had time to sweep thru the sheet for the 214 settings, therefore I'm only posting the single page I've altered. Thanks to mike_pro for the work on the spreadsheet. Maybe we can figure out how to work this for a master sheet somehow but with different editors, it requires coordination.

I spent 8+ hours last weekend tweaking & my results are in the sheet. The "clay faces" are almost 100% gone & the inputs look much better on everything from ANT to Video 1 to SVideo to Comp 1 & Comp 2 with the changes as posted. I do not yet have a DVI input, so I cannot get to those
values but Clyde's final postings which I used as a basis are from his DVI input I think he said. BTW, Clyde, your postings (Thank you!!) went a
long way to helping me get this fixed, so you deserve the credit here... as I tweaked your tweaks...

I also have a 6500 K reference lamp behind the set to darken the blacks.

This is not to be critical, just informative. The biggest problem I saw with your last posted settings came from watching the Star Wars ATOC scene where the "head of the senate" is seated at the table talking to yoda & others.. very early in movie ~ (C4, +4:30). That is a difficult scene that I
use to adjust the set (along with a few from LOTR) & I was unable to see the detail work - ruffles in his dark gold shirt/cumberbund & drap with
the S_BR and S_CT settings you posted. His clothes looked like one big black robe so I adjusted those two by eye until I was happy with that image
& various skin tones from other scenes and LOTR. I have left the settings alone for a week now and note...they were very close to the 309 defaults.

To read the sheet unzip & then expand the gif until you can read it...(Sorry it was the only way to get in under then 507K posting limit). The dark bolds are settings original to the 309 firmware on the HLN567W I have. The settings under "309 Tweak k2ue" are from Clyde's postings... and Vincent's tweaks are my own spins on those. I also pulled some settings posted for an HLN565 for the ANT/Video inputs that look better to me and my partner as her eye for color is much "truer" than mine. I did attempt to color group the settings which seem to be shared based on what I saw when I was tweaking... however, I'll not swear to that fact as others have said that each input can have it's own values- not sure of that one.

As always, use these settings at your own risk, as no one can guarantee they will work with your firmware, 309 or not. Above all.. listen to other's warnings.. -> MAKE SURE YOU WRITE DOWN and/or PHOTOGRAPH EVERY ORIGINAL SETTING BEFORE TOUCHING ANYTHING.. as you may not be able to recover your sets otherwise if you hoze it up...as ANY posted values may NOT work properly on your set, with your inputs. Unless you know exactly what you are doing, leave it alone or call the pros...

Let's keep tweaking until we are happy.. later. Vincent

Originally posted by gattaca
The biggest problem I saw with your last posted settings came from watching the Star Wars ATOC scene where the "head of the senate" is seated at the table talking to yoda & others.. very early in movie ~ (C4, +4:30). That is a difficult scene that I use to adjust the set (along with a few from LOTR) & I was unable to see the detail work - ruffles in his dark gold shirt/cumberbund & drap with
the S_BR and S_CT settings you posted. His clothes looked like one big black robe so I adjusted those two by eye until I was happy with that image & various skin tones from other scenes and LOTR.

You used Supreme Chancellor Palpatine to configure your DLP. You're my new hero.

:D

sorry.. had to delete the attachment from my post above..my bad. I put an older copy up there with some minor differences and tried to edit/replace the attachment. However, for some reason the Forum tool it said it had replaced the file and changed the name... but actually when I downloaded it, it brought down the older version. So here's the 20040327 version..

Originally posted by Sea Ray
I generally run mine at 90-100, which doesn't seem to give us much play to work with. Do you recommend we reset a contrast setting in the SM so this 90 setting is more like 50 or 60 in th UM so we have some flexibility? It seems strange to me that Samsung would make something that routinely works at 90 or so out of 100. I believe their standard setting 90.

Whoa there -- there are REASONS to back down the Contrast on a CRT: improved Cathode life, less Red blooming and/or burning, less defocusing, etc -- none of which have ANY parallel in a DLP -- the lamp life will be utterly unaffected by what Contrast level you run. So unless peak White looks too bright for your taste WHY reduce it?

Originally posted by gattaca
The biggest problem I saw with your last posted settings came from watching the Star Wars ATOC scene where the "head of the senate" is seated at the table talking to yoda & others.. very early in movie ~ (C4, +4:30). That is a difficult scene that I
use to adjust the set (along with a few from LOTR) & I was unable to see the detail work - ruffles in his dark gold shirt/cumberbund & drap with
the S_BR and S_CT settings you posted. His clothes looked like one big black robe so I adjusted those two by eye until I was happy with that image
& various skin tones from other scenes and LOTR. I have left the settings alone for a week now and note...they were very close to the 309 defaults.


I'll make a point of getting that DVD so I can experience the situation that several have noted as especially difficult to reproduce well.

Originally posted by ikethepug
Seems extreme, but my HLN507W also seems too dark in dark scenes if that makes any sense. When jacking up the contrast yes, the dark scenes are better, but I sometimes feel I may be washing out the brighter scenes in spite. I had my set ISF calibrated and overall I am extremely happy with its performance (especially in HD), but damn I am learning quickly what obsessive/compulsive people are all about. Maybe because of the $4000 I paid for the bitch.
My thoughts are that this will also depend heavily on which Gamma setting you are using -- how input IRE level is mapped to actual brightness (which we bizarrely call "contrast". . .). Maybe that's why Gamma 4 is there -- it expands the low end and crunches the high end (dark objects look brighter), which seems to appeal in many circumstances. There is often a dichotomy between whether the grayscale is accurate to spec, vs. whether we LIKE what it looks like with what directors and DVD ports DO with it -- a (too) dimly lit scene will look better with lower true gamma (like Gamma 4) than truer spec conformance (Gamma 0) because the limited depth of (low) brightness will be expanded, accentuating detail. I notice on many network programs, like daytime soaps, that there is just nothing remotely bright, even in ostensibly outdoor scenes -- maybe they feel it projects intimacy? Then a commercial comes on and the sheets or whatever are blistering bright white, so the capability was there. It's hard for the limited dynamic range of a TV to deal with bad source material.

Originally posted by gattaca
sorry.. had to delete the attachment from my post above..my bad. I put an older copy up there with some minor differences and tried to edit/replace the attachment. However, for some reason the Forum tool it said it had replaced the file and changed the name... but actually when I downloaded it, it brought down the older version. So here's the 20040327 version..

Thanks Gattaca. Could you please pm me the excel sheet? Much appreciated!:D

--SD Diver

SD Diver.. I'm not exactly how to send a file with this builtin emailer, plus your accounts says below.. so drop me a PM w/ your email address iif you want and I'll send it

SD Diver has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her.

Originally posted by k2ue
Whoa there -- there are REASONS to back down the Contrast on a CRT: improved Cathode life, less Red blooming and/or burning, less defocusing, etc -- none of which have ANY parallel in a DLP -- the lamp life will be utterly unaffected by what Contrast level you run. So unless peak White looks too bright for your taste WHY reduce it?

My point is not that I want to reduce it. Because lamp life is unaffected by whatever contrast setting is used, why not increase your range? In other words why not make it possible to use contrast settings of 100-150 and give up the ability to set them to 0-50?

Thus by increasing the contrast setting in the SM, what now is 100 (in the UM) will become say 50 or whatever. This gives you more ability to tweak dark feeds to higher contrast or whatever. It seems to me the only thing you'd be giving up is some of the lower contrast settings, but with normal contrast at 90-100 do you really need the ability to lower contrast to below say 50?

Hi Everyone!

I posted here a while back regarding PQ improvements on my 617. Well, I finally got my Iscan HD by DVDO video processor. I have not finished tweaking yet, but it has made a dramatic difference so far. I'll keep you all posted when I tweak some more, but this device appears to be well worth the $$$.

Mongo

Originally posted by Sea Ray
My point is not that I want to reduce it. Because lamp life is unaffected by whatever contrast setting is used, why not increase your range? In other words why not make it possible to use contrast settings of 100-150 and give up the ability to set them to 0-50?


100 Contrast on the User Menu is 100% of available light -- there is no more to give.

Imongox whats this? "I finally got my Iscan HD by DVDO video processor."

I finally found a 61inch Sammy and they are gonna allow me to exchange my 61RCA for it. Delivery is set for April 21st. I have a few questions for you.
1. Since the Sammy doesnt have an internal OTA tuner for Hidef like the RCA. Is there an OTA HIdef tuner that i can purchase that will allow me to watch OTA Hidef on the Sammy?

2. I have heard so many complaints about the Sammy on the forum over the last couple of weeks, i almost afraid to trade it, as i have no lip sync, shadow detail problems, Internal reflection, or rainbows on my RCA, but the Samsungs i saw in the store have the PQ of the RCA beat. I wonder how these people are having all these problems, you cant see any of these green tint issues on the sammies in the store.

3. Can the shadow detail be improved to at least match that of the RCA, which is the only thing that i saw when compared side by side in the store was better on the RCA.

4. Since April 21st is delivery date whats the chance of my 61inch Sammy being a W1?

Thanks.

minime9ru see --> http://www.dvdo.com/pro/index.html

Originally posted by k2ue
100 Contrast on the User Menu is 100% of available light -- there is no more to give.

Are you sure that is right? While tweaking under the SM, which of course is done on Dynamic mode (Contrast 100), tweaking the CT_M will give you more contrast. I would imagine the same would be true of the S_CT adjustment.

Originally posted by Sea Ray
Are you sure that is right? While tweaking under the SM, which of course is done on Dynamic mode (Contrast 100), tweaking the CT_M will give you more contrast. I would imagine the same would be true of the S_CT adjustment.

Yes, I'm sure -- when adjusted for max possible Red (the limiting condition at 6500K) the light output in Service Menu is the same as the User Menu at Contrast = 100. I've measured it.

Well I now have a new light engine and a new digi board, version 319.

Has anyone done any tweaks to this version. What's the latest version of the tweaks spreadsheet?

I will get this ISF calibrated (on component video) again in about a month or so.

Dean

Originally posted by gattaca
My visual test for this is the infamous "senator" scene in SW ATOC where the senator is seated in the chair and the wearing a multi-layered outfit. If things get too dark, you lose all sense that he's actually wearing a dark gold tone shirt under what appears to be a black velvet v-neck robe. Using 242 and 116 I was unable to discern his shirt at all until i adjusted per above.

I finally got ahold of that DVD. That certainly is difficult material -- you have a man in dark textured robes backlit by a huge window! Went I examine what is presented in detail, it appears the biggest problem is that my eyes want to stop-down on the bright windows and inhibit seeing the robe & clothing details -- but it is there, evidenced by the fact that it is more apparent in the moments when those robes, etc appear only against the dark carpet, with no change in settings. It makes perfect sense that the eye will be happier with a higher lowlight level when intensely backit, but the scene as they gave it to use puts the details in the shadow created by the senator's body, where it should be hard to discern.

Clyde, Hmmm Thanks! I had not considered the large window as the overpowering element in that scene, but it is... I will reload the DVD & step thru the whole scene which spans a couple of minutes where he is both seated & standing. Do you think you should be able to discern some detail in the shirt, cumberbund, and the v-neck based robe or should it be a dark blob? It's hard to know what Lucus inteneded but the rest of the movie does not look overly hot when i make those adjustments (to me) Did you raise your settings of 242 and 116 to see the shirt and if so what did you think it did to the rest of the picture?

There are also some very difficult scenes in LOTR.. that I'll have to find and post to see what you guys think. The is one where Froto is in the garden with the Elf Princess, looking into the water mirror. The details of the walls behind them & the base of the pedestal totally disappear if things get too dark. I'll have try the settings on those this weekend maybe if I get some time.

Thanks!

Originally posted by gattaca
Did you raise your settings of 242 and 116 to see the shirt and if so what did you think it did to the rest of the picture?

I'm still running the settings I last posted. I was quite happy overall with what I saw in that scene, and had no urge to raise it because deep Blacks were just touching as Black as the display can reproduce, so any elevation of Brightness would have compromised that, which is not to my taste. I 'll be interested in your LOTR tough scenes list.

Originally posted by eafenyes
I have a new HLN with build date of February 2003. I am trying to get used to all the HD quirks. I have a Comcast DCT5100 box and certain things are happening which are a mystery to me. For example, I just got through watching West Wing on the NBC HD feed and it was way too dark. I had to crank up the brightness to 100% to see anything. Also, the picture was a tiny letterbox format in the middle of the picutre tube. What's up with that? So far, the only true high definition shows seem to be only ABC. The Oscars were awesome. The PBS HD loop is also awesome, but only to show the set off to friends. The content is zilch.

Any recommendations to adjust the brightness level on HD broadcast would be appreciated.

I observe the same problem on Direct TV NBC national broadcast of West Wing (not HD)... it is consistently darker than other things that I watch. I cannot compare it to the HD broadcast, in Missoula MT and where I live, the local HD broadcast it not receivable on my current antenna system. I attribute the picture dimness to the source, not the TV.

DirectTV can be really inconsistent with color balance/saturation. I've noticed lately that everyone looks like they have sunburn on Stargate SG-1 on the SciFi channel (my SG-1 DVDs look fine). I've seen similar inconsistencies at other times on other channels.

Could some one please post the 800 number for sammy digital serivice.'

Thanks so much.

Geoffrey

Well I thought I would post the best settings I have for my HLN4365.
V309.

As everyone has said. All settings are not the same. I had major...I repeat...major green problems. I found the answer was to increase the red and a major increase in the blue. As Seth S. Noted, the perfect gray scale may not be give you the best color but it might be slightly tinged red.

I found this to be true. DVI settings only

Red gain 129
Green gain 120
Blue Gain 140 (yes very important to the picture and skin tone)
Red Offset 138
Green offset 131
Blue Offset 137

S__BR 248
S__CT 123

My set has just under 300 hours on the bulb.

At these settings, I don't experience some of the other problems others have seen. No Green Push now. No IR.. no banding...nice blacks and detail in blacks. I had "Beautiful America" on from PBS where all the musicians wore jet black but I could see buttons and folds in the dresses.

I do some some dithering in light areas but not bothersome. Don't take my settings as gospel. Right now they work work me but I am always experimenting with new settings. Everyones experience here has been a great help getting my set looking sharp, crisp and bright. Skin tones are fantastic at my settings on my set. May not be on yours.

other Settings.

Contast 96
Color 62
sharpness 50
Brightness 53

I am using Clyde's settings for DVI and I love the color saturation and flesh tones. I am having some difficulty figuring out the S_BR and S_CT settings I should use however. I have the 5065 so my defaults for DVI are 248 and 112 which seem to make the picture very dark. . I know these are higher than defaults for the 43" but I think it is done to compensate for the larger screen. Anyway, how would you suggest I go about optimizing them. My source is a Dish 811 HD receiver. The problem I have with setting black to meet the pillars on a non stretched image is that any adjustmets also affect the color of black in the pillars so they always match. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Bill

Originally posted by zmn668
Sorry for double post. Must've hit submit twice.

Bill Just go back and edit your posts ... you can delete or modify any of your previous posts.

I should mention that the settings I use were for DVI. However I noticed that my DVD Toshiba 4900 seems much stronger so I back off the color intensity to about 25. HD seems to be able to take more intensity and keep good flesh tones. However, don't use PBS American Family as an example. The producers use a very hot color and lots of sun yellow to, I think, convey a hot Latin feel.

hi guys.....one complaint, i can only use the pip window in the lower right on component 3......this covers up the score bug when i am watching sports......any way to move it on component 3?

Hello,

Can anyone tell me how to get into this menu that allows you to change gamma settings. I saw the technician do it but forgot. My problem is with the hlm617w, and crazy digital artifacts. They occur mostly during dark images, like digital shadows. The technician stated this is a problem pleging all 61's. Anyone else having this prblem, and is there a fix? Also the tech replaced the bulb,board and some other board, to no avail.


your help is appreciated

Originally posted by gattaca
sorry.. had to delete the attachment from my post above..my bad. I put an older copy up there with some minor differences and tried to edit/replace the attachment. However, for some reason the Forum tool it said it had replaced the file and changed the name... but actually when I downloaded it, it brought down the older version. So here's the 20040327 version..

Does anyone have this in Excel format? I need to update the settings for my 467W.

Clyde,

I have been appreciating your posts especially because I have an HLN567W with 309 FW. I have the green push problem where all blonds look like they have been swimming in a chlorinated pool especially in darker scenes. I have had some success with the user menu by pushing up the blue using the color temp (COOL2) and removing green using tint (63/37). Of course this only works for the S-Video inputs and I have the problem on all inputs.

I would like to apply your tweaks but instead of just copying them in, I would like to understand them. I liked your explanation in your post about the effect of the gamma correction; very concise and at the right technical level so that I can comprehend what is actually happening. Would you be so kind as to give a similar level of explanation about the effect of R/G/&B offset inputs and their relationship to the R/G/&B gain controls? I'm sure that it would be appreciated by many members of the forum.

Thanks,
Stephan

Originally posted by macd23
hi guys.....one complaint, i can only use the pip window in the lower right on component 3......this covers up the score bug when i am watching sports......any way to move it on component 3?

Are you saying that the Locate button does not move the picture? I don't think that split screen is supported when using Component but my TV allows the PIP to be moved to any corner with Locate when the primary image is Component.

Originally posted by schunacher
Clyde,

I have been appreciating your posts especially because I have an HLN567W with 309 FW. I have the green push problem where all blonds look like they have been swimming in a chlorinated pool especially in darker scenes. I have had some success with the user menu by pushing up the blue using the color temp (COOL2) and removing green using tint (63/37). Of course this only works for the S-Video inputs and I have the problem on all inputs.

I would like to apply your tweaks but instead of just copying them in, I would like to understand them. I liked your explanation in your post about the effect of the gamma correction; very concise and at the right technical level so that I can comprehend what is actually happening. Would you be so kind as to give a similar level of explanation about the effect of R/G/&B offset inputs and their relationship to the R/G/&B gain controls? I'm sure that it would be appreciated by many members of the forum.

Thanks,
Stephan

OK, I'll give it a shot:

We don't know the physical response of the mirrors in the DLP chip, but we do know that they are preceded by a Gamma lookup table that makes them APPEAR to have the control characteristics of the 3 grids of an RGB CRT, in digitized format. Once we have selected Gamma, the video vs. light response curve (Gamma 0 is most like a CRT on the HLNs), what remains is to process each of our three Primaries to apply to these "grids".

All of the controls have close CRT counterparts:

SubContrast is like a Master Screen Grid control, acting as a gain multiplier on all three colors;
SubBrightness is like a Master Bias, setting the cutoff voltage source from which the individual Biases will be derived, and hence moving all three together.

So how will each of the colors be processed to drive these digital pseudo-grids:

Well, you take the input and separate it into its RGB components, and you have a signal that in analog space would look like a graph of one color's level vs. time. Each Primary is now MULTIPLIED by its Gain value, where 128 can be inferred to be "1", and other levels are proportionally above or below. This is effectively a multiplier on the Y axis of our analog video vs. time graph. The next task is to decide where zero is -- at what level should our "CRT" reach cutoff? The offset controls provide this function -- they move the baseline to where we think zero should be; think of the signals as coming in, being multiplied by Gain, and then all three get 128 subtracted from their adjusted instantaneous value to normalize them, then each of the three get its own Offset value added. Zero for each channel, after this sum, is Cutoff for that Grid, where positive numbers are above Cutoff and negative below. We now have a final value for each of the three primaries, which will now drive the three "Grids" that have been processed by the Sub and Gamma selections to emulate a CRT with appropriate transfer characteristics. The numbers we enter are mostly arbitrary, so long as we stay in the range where the math will not over or underflow, and we don't run out of our weakest Primary:


Like a CRT one color will run out of steam first at the bright end -- this is a fundamental limit, unless by accident you could make a good, bright source that was exactly 6500K, so all three primaries would "hit the wall" together. But our DLP's are again like a CRT -- Red is shortest in supply. So if we fix the Red processing curve, say by arbitrarily assigning Gain and Offset values of 128 to Red, then there will come a point where there is simply no more Red to be had if SubContrast is further advanced, attempting to make the picture brighter. I have suggested we identify that point, and set SubContrast just below it, so that Red will be able to trace the Gamma curve we have selected, without truncating the top end (which would cause a sudden shift toward Blue/Green at the top end, when Red hit the wall). Since there is some small interaction with SubBrightness, we want to recheck this max Red condition when we are able to make a final setting of correct Black level.

Color Temperature adjustment will now consist of adjusting the Gain and Offset of the other two Primaries to track with Red, and produce the same White temp at all IRE levels. But note that each is non-linearly processed by Gamma, and each has one additional multiplier: the color output of the lamp at that Primary. Green, for instance is stronger that Red, Blue stronger yet (compared to what is required for 6500K). So when all three grid-like curves are set for the same Gain and Offset, they would start together, but Green would reach a higher level than Red, and Blue the highest. Since the curves are non-linear, as soon as we adjust the Green and Blue Gain to place the max levels at the right amount -- the curves mis-track at lower levels. So we must iteratively adjust both Gain and Offset for Green and Blue to stay as close to Red over the WHOLE range as the quirks of their curvature allow. And there is the subjective factor that variations in Blue are less critical, because they change Temperature more than Tint, which is less noticed, whereas variations in Red-Green balance are readily perceived as Tint shift.

After all of these machinations, I wound up the these settings on my HLN467W, with 309 Firmware:

Red Gain: 128
Green Gain: 113
Blue Gain: 97
Red Offset: 128
Green Offset: 130
Blue Offset: 134
SubBrightness: 242
SubContrast: 116

Clyde,

Excellent write-up. I also have a new (1 week old) 467W with about 45 hours on the lamp. There are some definite changes I need to make once the lamp stabilizes, especially the green tones. I watch quite a bit of golf, and the grass is almost a neon green.

Also, most SD material with dark backgrounds have green tints along the edges of faces, etc. Once I plug the defaults into my updated SM spreadsheet, I will start off with your settings and go from there.

I appreciate your efforts and sharing of information.

Originally posted by whsbuss
Clyde,

Excellent write-up. I also have a new (1 week old) 467W with about 45 hours on the lamp. There are some definite changes I need to make once the lamp stabilizes, especially the green tones. I watch quite a bit of golf, and the grass is almost a neon green.

Also, most SD material with dark backgrounds have green tints along the edges of faces, etc. Once I plug the defaults into my updated SM spreadsheet, I will start off with your settings and go from there.

I appreciate your efforts and sharing of information.

I just edited my post -- it became clear looking at the numbers that the R/G/B Gain multiplication is done before the Offset is applied, and so I modified the text to reflect that order.

Originally posted by k2ue
I just edited my post -- it became clear looking at the numbers that the R/G/B Gain multiplication is done before the Offset is applied, and so I modified the text to reflect that order.

I assume the gamma setting is 0, correct?

Originally posted by whsbuss
I assume the gamma setting is 0, correct?

Yes, Gamma 0 closer to the desired gamma curve (and thus also more CRT-like) than any of the other choices. I edited the post to note that.

Originally posted by k2ue
I just edited my post -- it became clear looking at the numbers that the R/G/B Gain multiplication is done before the Offset is applied, and so I modified the text to reflect that order.

I assume the gamma setting is 0, correct?

Clyde,

Thanks for that fantastic summary, it was exactly what I was looking for.

I am a little bit confused when you use the term 'cutoff voltage'. Are you referring to 0 IRE or what I have heard called 'blanking level' of the signal and the mapping of that signal to a base output level that produces zero light output to the display?

Also I have tried to reread the paragraph specifically describing gain and offset and I still cannot understand the part about the signals getting "128 subtracted from their adjusted instantaneous value to normalize them". How does the number 128 relate to the signal level or for that matter to the offset value from the signal level? (I think I understand your explanation of 128 as representing 1 with regard to the gain value; that would make 144, for example, a multiplier of 1.125, correct?). Following the CRT analogy, is it correct to think of the video signal as a relative voltage between 0 and 1? Perhaps I am being too literal with regard to the numbers.

Your strategy for setting the color by basing the adjustment on max red output seems very logical for acheiving maximum brightness. When you set up the adjustments how many points along the range of gray levels are you checking, or is there a way to see a continuous output curve for each color using your tools?

Anyway, thanks for the video lesson. I have applied your settings to my DVI input and the picture is great. On Monday Amazon is delivering a Samsung DVD-HD931 along with the Avia DVD so I can mess around with all the inputs. Would you say that your DVI gain and offset settings would work (or be pretty close) on the component and s-video inputs if I adjust the sub-brightness and sub-contrast for each input? Although I also have the Samsung SIR-TS360 I hesitate to use it as a video gateway. Next I have to look at the DVI switches! :D

Forum contributors like yourself make this digital TV thing a lot more fun.

Stephan

Originally posted by whsbuss
Clyde,

Excellent write-up. I also have a new (1 week old) 467W with about 45 hours on the lamp. There are some definite changes I need to make once the lamp stabilizes, especially the green tones. I watch quite a bit of golf, and the grass is almost a neon green.

Also, most SD material with dark backgrounds have green tints along the edges of faces, etc. Once I plug the defaults into my updated SM spreadsheet, I will start off with your settings and go from there.

I appreciate your efforts and sharing of information.

Your description of the green problem is exactly what my experience has been especially the correlation to SD material and the appearance of green halos on heads and faces. I still don't understand why Samsung would ship the TV's that way when adjustments such as those shared by Clyde make the picture what it should be.

Originally posted by schunacher
I am a little bit confused when you use the term 'cutoff voltage'. Are you referring to 0 IRE or what I have heard called 'blanking level' of the signal and the mapping of that signal to a base output level that produces zero light output to the display?

Also I have tried to reread the paragraph specifically describing gain and offset and I still cannot understand the part about the signals getting "128 subtracted from their adjusted instantaneous value to normalize them". How does the number 128 relate to the signal level or for that matter to the offset value from the signal level? (I think I understand your explanation of 128 as representing 1 with regard to the gain value; that would make 144, for example, a multiplier of 1.125, correct?). Following the CRT analogy, is it correct to think of the video signal as a relative voltage between 0 and 1? Perhaps I am being too literal with regard to the numbers.

Your strategy for setting the color by basing the adjustment on max red output seems very logical for achieving maximum brightness. When you set up the adjustments how many points along the range of gray levels are you checking, or is there a way to see a continuous output curve for each color using your tools?

Would you say that your DVI gain and offset settings would work (or be pretty close) on the component and s-video inputs if I adjust the sub-brightness and sub-contrast for each input?


Cutoff voltage on a CRT would be Black Level -- where the beam current, and hence light output, hits zero. Blanking Level is below Black, and is there to be sure scanned displays like CRTs don't paint the screen while retracing during the Blanking Interval. The video signal input, in the case of the HLN, is probably best viewed as a digital signal with a range of 0-255, corresponding to 0 to 1V analog.

The normalization I described is just a way to account for the Offset always being a large positive number -- subtracting off the reference (Red = 128) offset size makes it clearer what is being done to the lowest signal level when the big Offset numbers are added: i.e. if we subtract 128 and add 130 we have added 2; if we subtract 128 and add 126 we have subtracted two. You have the multiplying right 144/128 would be a multiplication of 1.125.

Setting max Red is easy with any sort of light meter. Take a test pattern with 100 IRE White, turn the Green and Blue Gains down to 0, and step SubContrast while measuring Peak Red -- there is a point where further upward steps do not give more red, and the last step below where it stops moving in the place to stop. If you switch to Grayscale, you will then see a perfect Red Scale -- add we advanced SubContrast further the top Red levels would begin to merge.

I really almost never use the non-DVI inputs, so I haven'y spent any time on their control functions. Since their Brightness, Contrast, Color and Tint can be separately set at the User Menu level I haven't seen a need to change their Service Menu settings, other than using the same SubBrightness and SubContrast as for DVI.

Clyde, thanks for the clarification. I feel pretty good about my understanding now; enough to get myself in trouble anyway. I can't help but think of all the people doing searches and coming up on that information; they'll be hitting the jackpot! :cool:

Stephan

Originally posted by schunacher
Your description of the green problem is exactly what my experience has been especially the correlation to SD material and the appearance of green halos on heads and faces. I still don't understand why Samsung would ship the TV's that way when adjustments such as those shared by Clyde make the picture what it should be.

The short answer to this question is that displays in the showroom that are brighter and have color temperatures way above 6500K sell better. Also displays in the showroom that show bright green grass sell better to sport fans. The end result is for our OOTB Sammys are color temperatures around 9000K and red maxing out around 80 to 90 IRE and greens being over emphasized. It is unfortunate that a 100% pulse of red on the DLP is just not as bright as a 100%pulse of green or blue. Remember that a DLP controls brightness by pulsing the light. 100% red equals on during the whole red frame. Samsung knows that they can brag about having higher contrast ratios by pushing past the red limit.

In the future, if enough of us complained then maybe Sammys will come with a sanity mode (near 6500K flat curve, no top end blue bubble). This would not be as good as a fully calibrated system that takes into account your video sources but it would be a giant step in the right direction.

I have read with great interest the information posted by Clyde Washburn, alias "k2ue." Thanks to Clyde and all who have particiapted in the related discussion. I have an HLN617W with the 306 firmware. Clyde's discussion assumes the 309 firmware. Is it possible for me to upgrade my firmware? How? Thanks in advance for the answer.

I have the same complaints others have noted, including green push and problems with rendering shadow detail. I'm going to have an ISF calibration done in a couple of weeks. From what Clyde has said, I can expect big improvements. But it remains to be seen whether the guy adheres to a flat 6500K or allows the slight deviations Clyde recommends in order to get the right tint.

Eric Stewart
Catonsville, MD

Originally posted by epstewart
I have read with great interest the information posted by Clyde Washburn, alias "k2ue." Thanks to Clyde and all who have particiapted in the related discussion. I have an HLN617W with the 306 firmware. Clyde's discussion assumes the 309 firmware. Is it possible for me to upgrade my firmware? How? Thanks in advance for the answer.

I have the same complaints others have noted, including green push and problems with rendering shadow detail. I'm going to have an ISF calibration done in a couple of weeks. From what Clyde has said, I can expect big improvements. But it remains to be seen whether the guy adheres to a flat 6500K or allows the slight deviations Clyde recommends in order to get the right tint.

Eric Stewart
Catonsville, MD

Actually there is nothing about my post that is unique to 309 firmware except the final values I wound up with -- the method would be the same for any firmware -- other versions probably have different weighting factors built-in for the Primary Gains and Offsets, but the same sequence should yield the same visual result. K2UE is my Ham call, BTW.

Originally posted by epstewart

I have the same complaints others have noted, including green push and problems with rendering shadow detail. I'm going to have an ISF calibration done in a couple of weeks.
Eric Stewart
Catonsville, MD

I think it is a fact that all these Samsungs have green push problems out of the box. I'll look at one from across the room at BB or CC and tell which one is the Sammy because it's a little greener than its competitors. Fortunately it is easily remedied as I have tweaked the SM myself and I'm no expert. It's a shame Samsung doesn't make them comparable to their competitors OOTB, but it looks like the HLP series has addressed these issues when they discuss an extra green color wheel and improved contrast

Be sure to post again after your calibration as to whether the difference was worth it...

Sea Ray,

I'll be sure to post my ISF calibration results. I expect the calibration will happen Saturday 4/24/04.

Eric

K2UE,

I notice you say your calibration intentionally did not obtain 6500K on mid-IRE-level test patterns, so as to eliminate perceptible tint errors in actual material. Your original calibration had a 10% hump in color temp in the middle range. On your later calibration, the one where you tweaked Sub-Contrast and Sub-Brightness and used a different methodology to obtain higher-output Peak White, did the same thing happen? I.e., did you again have something on the order of a 10% hump in the grayscale at various levels of luminance?

If so, do you now see any apparent tint on black & white material?

Eric

Originally posted by epstewart
K2UE,

I notice you say your calibration intentionally did not obtain 6500K on mid-IRE-level test patterns, so as to eliminate perceptible tint errors in actual material. Your original calibration had a 10% hump in color temp in the middle range. On your later calibration, the one where you tweaked Sub-Contrast and Sub-Brightness and used a different methodology to obtain higher-output Peak White, did the same thing happen? I.e., did you again have something on the order of a 10% hump in the grayscale at various levels of luminance?

If so, do you now see any apparent tint on black & white material?

Eric

The first calibration was before I determined that I wasn't going to get really good results without addressing the Red limit. I also later adopted the technique of adjusting to keep a constant difference between x any y, which keeps you on the 45 degree zero tint slope, while also adjusting the Green and Blue Gain and Offset to let the temp wander back and forth thru 6500K on the IRE scale. At present its holding temp within +/- 4%, which looks pretty good on B&W material -- no perceptible tint and no noticeable warmth difference at any particular gray level vs. any other.

K2UE,

Thanks for the info. It is good to hear that your maximum deviation from 6500K is just +/- 4% and there is no perceptible tint in B&W.

Can you explain what you mean by "adjusting to keep a constant difference between x and y, which keeps you on the 45 degree zero tint slope"? I gather this may have something to do with the x and y axes of CIE color space, right? I know there is a curved line through this space upon which lie all the various color temperatures that are perceived as "white," including 6500K. But how does "the 45 degree zero tint slope" relate to this?

Thanks again.

Eric

Originally posted by epstewart
K2UE,

Thanks for the info. It is good to hear that your maximum deviation from 6500K is just +/- 4% and there is no perceptible tint in B&W.

Can you explain what you mean by "adjusting to keep a constant difference between x and y, which keeps you on the 45 degree zero tint slope"? I gather this may have something to do with the x and y axes of CIE color space, right? I know there is a curved line through this space upon which lie all the various color temperatures that are perceived as "white," including 6500K. But how does "the 45 degree zero tint slope" relate to this?

Thanks again.

Eric

Actually the White line on a CIE Chart is straight, and very close to 45 degrees:
Temp x y difference
6000 0.322 0.338 0.016
6500 0.313 0.329 0.016
7000 0.305 0.321 0.016
9000 0.285 0.299 0.014

You can see that the x and y values are roughly equal (i.e. at about 45 degrees from the origin), and that in the vicinity of 6500K they move with constant difference, i.e. straight. Even up at 9000K the difference is close to the same amount. So we are not talking a curved line, for practical purposes the line of White is straight, and runs at roughly 45 degrees on the CIE Chart. So by watching for constant difference I am letting the Temp wander a bit (centered on 6500K), but insuring there is no residual Tint.

Originally posted by schunacher
Are you saying that the Locate button does not move the picture? I don't think that split screen is supported when using Component but my TV allows the PIP to be moved to any corner with Locate when the primary image is Component.

thanks much! i had no idea!

K2UE,

Thanks for explaining the delta x = delta y concept. It makes good sense to me now.

I've been playing with the Avia Gamma Chart. I'm surprised to find that the gamma reading I get from it on the Samsung DLP TV varies inversely with the user Contrast setting! That is, when I lower Contrast, the gamma reading goes up.

This does not happen on my old Sony CRT. The gamma reading stays the same, whatever the Picture (i.e., Contrast or White Level) setting.

Gamma readings that vary with Contrast or White Level on the Samsung suggest that either (a) the Samsung Contrast setting actually does change gamma, or (b) the Avia Gamma Chart does not work properly with the Samsung. I don't know which is correct.

Eric

I have a friend who just purchase a HLN-507 and I was going to be setting up his home theater and possibly tweaking his set. I was wondering if somebody might have posted somewhere and Calibration walk-through type thing that shows what service menu adjustments need to be made to make this set shine. I don't own this set so I have not had any chance to really play with it, any help would be appreciated. PM me if necessary.

Originally posted by epstewart
I've been playing with the Avia Gamma Chart. I'm surprised to find that the gamma reading I get from it on the Samsung DLP TV varies inversely with the user Contrast setting! That is, when I lower Contrast, the gamma reading goes up.

This does not happen on my old Sony CRT. The gamma reading stays the same, whatever the Picture (i.e., Contrast or White Level) setting.

Gamma readings that vary with Contrast or White Level on the Samsung suggest that either (a) the Samsung Contrast setting actually does change gamma, or (b) the Avia Gamma Chart does not work properly with the Samsung. I don't know which is correct.

Eric

I'm going to be away for a few days, but first chance I get I'll take a look and see what might be causing that behavior.

leftearlow,

Unfortunately, there is not a single magic-bullet set of service-menu numbers that work for all Samsung DLPs, even if they have the same model number.

You or your friend should consider going through the latter several pages of this thread and picking up on the extensive posts made by "k2ue." He gives a procedure for calibrating the TV using a color analyzer. He also gives a lot of background as to how and why the procedure works, so you don't have to rely on the specific numbers he gives.

Accurate color temperature, gamma, etc., depend in part on what version of firmware came with your TV, for one thing. Differrent owners have different firmware versions. You discover what your version is -- "302," "309," etc. -- by entering the service menu via the button sequence MUTE-1-8-2-POWER from the remote.

The Samsung service menu's settings vary in terms of their availability and also their specific values depending on which video-input interface is active at the moment and what scan rate it is using (in the case of component video). Anyone who plans to twiddle these values should first record the original factory values -- all of them, for every interface and scan rate. There is no other easy way to restore them if they get totally hashed up. They are not the same from one version of the firmware to the next, so other people in this forum might not be able to help if disaster strikes.

Also, it seems to be the case that the lamp inside the TV varies from one unit to the next in terms of the "color" of white it outputs, how bright it is, etc. The lamp is the starting point of calibration, so calibration should be postponed until the lamp ages a bit, and it probably should be repeated, using a color analyzer, at various points during the lamp's life. This is another reason why there is no one set of magic-bullet numbers.

Good luck.

Eric

Assuming the fact that Gamma varies with Contrast on the Samsung HNL-series DLP TV is significant, I wondered if Gamma should be coerced into the “normal” range of 2.2 to 2.5 for the DLP picture to look most “natural” – i.e., CRT-like.

First I tried applying my theory to the DVI input – and it worked! In particular, it made the picture on the Seabiscuit DVD, with all of its chiaroscuro and shadowed faces, look phenomenal — the best picture I’ve yet seen from the Samsung DLP. Then I did the same to the Component1/480i input, and it worked again. Then I did the same with S-Video2 and Video2: equally phenomenal.

The specifics:

My HLN617W with firmware version 306 has yet to be ISF calibrated. My service-menu settings are all “factory,” including service-menu “gamma” (SMG), which was set to the default value of 4. Using another SMG value might work, too, but (a) I can’t guarantee it and (b) it would most likely reduce the output level of reference white, making the picture dimmer than it needs to be.

I turned DNIe on (!), since I have found that it, too, affects Gamma quite noticeably. When DNIe is on for any input, it is on for all, by the way. Specifically, turning DNIe on tends to raise Gamma on the Avia Gamma Chart from under the desired 2.2-2.5 range to the proper range. If DNIe is off, one has to reduce Contrast/White Level a lot more drastically to obtain Gamma 2.2-2.5, again making the picture dimmer than it needs to be. (Note that DNIe is unavailable and unnecessary for DVI. The DVI picture is bright enough without it.)

Cueing up the standard Avia “basic patterns,” I skipped over the Contrast/White Level adjustment and set Brightness first with the Black Bars + Half Gray test pattern. Note that Brightness also affects Gamma; the higher Brightness is, the lower Gamma is. It’s important to set Brightness to get the correct Black Level before twiddling with Contrast to lock in Gamma.

After adjusting Brightness, I brought up the Gamma Chart to adjust Contrast and thereby set both White Level and Gamma. Starting with Contrast at 100, I reduced it until Gamma was roughly 2.4, as indicated by the middle patch on the chart being the same brightness as the background of the chart when looked at through defocused eyes.

After I had Brightness and Contrast (i.e., Black Level, White Level, and Gamma) set to my liking, I skipped Sharpness and set Color and Tint using the Avia Blue Bars pattern and blue filter.

Here’s what I got (ignoring Sharpness):

Video2 (DNIe On):
Contrast: 100
Brightness: 35
Color: 50
Tint: 48/52

S-Video2 (DNIe On):
Contrast: 100
Brightness: 35
Color: 48
Tint: 46/54

Component1/480i (DNIe On):
Contrast: 90
Brightness: 43
Color: 43
Tint: 48/52
(Note that I have not tried this yet w/ progressive Component video, only interlaced.)

S-Video 2 (DNIe N/A):
Contrast: 70
Brightness: 65
Color: 50
Tint: N/A

I do not recommend slavishly using these numbers, though. Instead, go through the procedure for each relevant interface. (Of course, you’ll have to connect your DVD player to the TV using each interface you want to adjust.) You will surely get somewhat different numbers, but you should get a picture that is just as phenomenal. Good luck!

Eric Stewart
Catonsville, MD